帕维尔·杜罗夫：Telegram、自由、审查、金钱、权力与人性

The following is a conversation with Pavel Durov, Founder and CEO of Telegram, a messaging platform actively used by over 1 billion people.

以下是与 Telegram 创始人兼首席执行官 Pavel Durov 的对话，Telegram 是一个被超过 10 亿人积极使用的消息平台。

00:00 Pavel has spent his life fighting for freedom of speech, building tools that protect human communication from surveillance and censorship.

帕维尔一生都在为言论自由而奋斗，构建保护人类交流免受监视和审查的工具。

For this, he has faced pressure from some of the most powerful governments and organizations on earth.

为此，他面临着来自地球上一些最强大的政府和组织的压力。

In the face of this immense pressure, he has always held his ground, continuously fighting to protect user privacy and the freedom of all of us humans to communicate with each other.

面对巨大的压力，他始终坚守阵地，为保护用户隐私和人类交流自由而不断奋斗。

I got the chance to spend a few weeks with him and can definitively say that he’s one of the most principled and fearless humans I’ve ever met.

我有机会和他在一起呆了几周，可以肯定地说，他是我见过的最有原则、最无所畏惧的人之一。

Plus, when I posted that I’m hanging out with Pavel, a lot of people, fans of his, wrote to me asking if he does, in fact, privately live the disciplined ascetic life he’s known for.

另外，当我发帖说我和帕维尔一起出去玩时，很多人，他的粉丝，写信给我，询问他私下是否确实过着他所闻名的自律禁欲生活。

No alcohol, stoic mindset, strict diet and exercise, including a crazy amount of daily pull-ups and push-ups.

不喝酒，保持坚忍的心态，严格的饮食和锻炼，包括每天进行大量的引体向上和俯卧撑。

No phone, except to occasionally test Telegram features, and so on.

没有电话，除了偶尔测试一下 Telegram 功能等等。

01:12 Yes, he’s 100% that guy, which made the experience of hanging out with him really inspiring to me.

是的，他就是 100% 的那个人，这让和他一起出去玩的经历给了我很大的启发。

I’m grateful for it and I’m grateful to now be able to call him a friend.

我对此很感激，也很感激现在能够称他为朋友。

This podcast conversation is in parts philosophical, about freedom, life, human nature, and the nature of government bureaucracies.

这个播客对话部分是哲学性的，涉及自由、生活、人性和政府官僚机构的本质。

And it is also in parts super technical because to me, it’s fascinating that Telegram has a relatively small engineering team and yet is able to basically out-innovate all of its competitors with an insane rate of introducing new, unique features.

它在某种程度上也是超级技术性的，因为对我来说，令人着迷的是 Telegram 拥有相对较小的工程团队，但能够以疯狂的速度引入新的、独特的功能，基本上在创新上超越了所有竞争对手。

Just like the meme of the Simpsons did it first, when you consider all the features we know and love in our communication apps, in almost every case, Telegram did it first.

就像辛普森一家的模因一样，当你考虑我们的通讯应用程序中我们所知道和喜爱的所有功能时，几乎在所有情况下，Telegram 都会首先做到这一点。

So we discuss it all, from the Kafkaesque situation he’s in the midst of France, to the roller coaster of his life and career, to his philosophy on technology, freedom, and the human condition.

所以我们讨论这一切，从他在法国中部的卡夫卡式的处境，到他生活和职业生涯的过山车，再到他关于技术、自由和人类状况的哲学。

02:15 And by the way, while this entire conversation is in English, we’ll make captions and voiceover audio tracks available in multiple languages, including Russian, Ukrainian, French, and Hindi.

顺便说一句，虽然整个对话都是英语，但我们将提供多种语言的字幕和画外音音轨，包括俄语、乌克兰语、法语和印地语。

On YouTube, you can switch between language audio tracks by clicking the settings gear icon, then clicking audio track, and then selecting the language you prefer.

在 YouTube 上，您可以通过单击设置齿轮图标，然后单击音轨，然后选择您喜欢的语言来切换语言音轨。

Huge thank you once again to ElevenLabs for their help with translation and dubbing, and with the bigger mission of breaking down barriers that language creates.

再次非常感谢 ElevenLabs 在翻译和配音方面提供的帮助，以及打破语言造成的障碍的更大使命。

They are truly one of the most remarkable companies I’ve ever had the pleasure of working with.

他们确实是我有幸合作过的最杰出的公司之一。

This is the Lex Fridman podcast, to support it please check out our sponsors in the description.

这是 Lex Fridman 播客，要支持它，请在说明中查看我们的赞助商。

And now, dear friends, here’s Pavel Durov.

现在，亲爱的朋友们，这是帕维尔·杜罗夫。

03:07 You’ve been an advocate for freedom for many years, writing that you should be ready to risk everything for freedom.

多年来，您一直是自由的倡导者，您写道，您应该准备好为自由冒一切风险。

What were some influences and insights that help you arrive at this value of human freedom?

有哪些影响和见解帮助您实现了人类自由的价值？

I get to experience the difference between a society with freedom and a society without freedom pretty early in life.

我很早就体验到了自由社会和没有自由社会之间的区别。

03:21 I was four years old when my family moved from the Soviet Union to northern Italy, and I could see that a society without freedom cannot enjoy the abundance of opinions, of ideas, of goods and services.

当我四岁的时候，我的家人从苏联搬到了意大利北部，我可以看到一个没有自由的社会无法享受丰富的意见、想法、商品和服务。

Even for a four or five-year-old kid, it was obvious.

即使对于一个四五岁的孩子来说，这也是显而易见的。

You can’t experience all the toys, the ice cream of sorts, the cartoons in the Soviet Union that you can access in Italy.

你不可能在意大利体验到苏联的所有玩具、冰淇淋之类的卡通片。

And then I got to realize something even more important.

然后我意识到一些更重要的事情。

You don’t get to contribute to this abundance without freedom.

如果没有自由，你就无法为这种丰富做出贡献。

And at this point it was pretty obvious to me.

在这一点上，这对我来说是非常明显的。

You also wrote “Свобода дороже денег”.

你还写了“Свобода дороже денег”。

04:14 It translates to, “Freedom matters more than money.” How do you prevent these values for freedom, being corrupted by money, by people with influence, by people with power?

翻译过来就是“自由比金钱更重要”。你如何防止这些自由价值观被金钱、有影响力的人和有权势的人腐蚀？

Well, the biggest enemies of freedom are fear and greed, so you make sure that they don’t stand in your way.

嗯，自由最大的敌人是恐惧和贪婪，所以你要确保它们不会阻碍你。

04:29 If you imagine the worst thing that can happen to you and then make yourself be comfortable with it, there is nothing more left to be afraid of.

如果你想象可能发生在你身上的最糟糕的事情，然后让自己适应它，那就没有什么可害怕的了。

So you stand your ground and you remember that it’s worth living your life according to the principles that you believe in, even though this life can end up being shorter than a longer life, but lived in slavery.

因此，你坚持自己的立场，并记住，按照你所信仰的原则生活是值得的，即使这一生最终可能比更长的生命更短，但生活在奴隶制中。

Do you contemplate your mortality?

你考虑过你的死亡吗？

05:08 You think about your death?

你想过你的死吗？

Oh yes.

哦是的。

Are you afraid of it?

你害怕吗？

In a way, you have to go against your instinct of self-preservation, and it’s not easy.

在某种程度上，你必须违背自我保护的本能，这并不容易。

05:14 We are all biological beings, hard-coded to be afraid of death.

我们都是生物体，生来就害怕死亡。

Nobody wants to die, but when you approach it rationally, you live and then you die.

没有人想死，但当你理性地对待它时，你会活着，然后就会死。

There’s no such thing as your death in your life.

你的生命中不存在死亡这回事。

You stop experiencing life once you die.

一旦你死了，你就不再体验生命。

So you have to ask yourself this question, is it worth living a life full of fear of death, or it’s much more enjoyable to forget about this and live your life in a way that makes you immune to this fear?

所以你必须问自己这个问题，是否值得过着充满对死亡的恐惧的生活，或者忘记这一点并以一种让你免受这种恐惧影响的方式生活会更令人愉快？

At the same time remembering that death exists, so that every day would count.

同时记住死亡的存在，这样每一天都有意义。

Yeah, remembering that death exists makes you deeply feel every moment that you do get.

是的，记住死亡的存在会让你深深地感受到你所经历的每一刻。

That’s why I love reminding myself that I can die any day.

这就是为什么我喜欢提醒自己，我随时都会死去。

In many ways you live a pretty stoic existence.

从很多方面来说，你过着一种相当坚忍的生活。

06:15 I got a chance to spend a couple of weeks with you.

我有机会和你一起度过几周。

In many ways, you seek to minimize the negative effects of the outside world on your mind.

在很多方面，你都在寻求尽量减少外部世界对你思想的负面影响。

You’ve written, quote, “If you want to reach your full potential and maintain clarity of mind, stay away from addictive substances.

您写道：“如果您想充分发挥潜力并保持头脑清醒，请远离成瘾物质。

My success and health are the result of 20 plus years of complete abstinence from alcohol, tobacco, coffee, pills, and illegal drugs.

我的成功和健康是 20 多年来完全戒除酒精、烟草、咖啡、药物和非法药物的结果。

Short-term pleasure isn’t worth your future.” Let’s talk about each one of these.

短期的快乐不值得你的未来。”让我们逐一讨论一下。

Alcohol.

酒精。

What’s been your philosophy behind that?

你这背后的理念是什么？

That one is quite easy.

那是很容易的。

06:57 When I was 11 years old, my biochemistry teacher, he gave me this book he wrote, it was called The Illusion of Paradise, and there he would describe the biological and chemical processes that happen in your body once you consume this or that substance.

当我11岁时，我的生物化学老师给了我他写的这本书，书名叫《天堂的幻觉》，书中他描述了一旦你摄入这种或那种物质，你体内发生的生物和化学过程。

It was mainly related to illegal drugs, but alcohol was one of these addictive substances that he covered.

主要与非法毒品有关，但酒精是他所报道的成瘾物质之一。

So it turns out that when you drink alcohol, the thing that happens is that your brain cells become paralyzed.

事实证明，当你喝酒时，你的脑细胞会变得瘫痪。

They become literally zombies.

他们实际上变成了僵尸。

And then next day, sometime after the party is over, some of your brain cells die and never get to normal.

然后第二天，聚会结束后的某个时候，你的一些脑细胞就会死亡，并且永远不会恢复正常。

So think about this.

所以想想这个。

If your brain is this most valuable tool you have in your journey to success and happiness, why would you destroy this tool for short-term pleasure?

如果你的大脑是你通往成功和幸福的旅程中最有价值的工具，为什么你会为了短期的快乐而毁掉这个工具呢？

This sounds ridiculous.

这听起来很荒谬。

Yeah, in many ways it’s a poison we’re letting in our body.

是的，从很多方面来说，它是我们进入身体的毒药。

08:06 But by way of advice, what advice would you give to people who consider not drinking?

但作为建议，您会给那些考虑不喝酒的人什么建议？

A lot of people use alcohol to enable them to have a vibrant social life.

许多人通过饮酒来享受充满活力的社交生活。

There’s a lot of pressure from society at a party to drink so they can socialize.

在聚会上，来自社会的压力很大，要求他们喝酒以便进行社交活动。

So what advice would you give to them, to people who imagine having a social life without alcohol?

那么，对于那些想要过上没有酒精的社交生活的人们，您有什么建议呢？

Well, first of all, don’t be afraid to be contrarian.

好吧，首先，不要害怕逆向思维。

08:37 Set your own rules.

制定你自己的规则。

Secondly, if you feel you need to drink, there must be some problem you’re trying to conceal.

其次，如果你觉得自己需要喝酒，那么你一定有什么问题想掩盖。

There’s some theory you’re not ready to confront, and you have to address this fear.

有些理论你还没有准备好面对，你必须解决这种恐惧。

If there is a good-looking girl you’re afraid to approach, get rid of this fear, approach her, practice.

如果你害怕接近一个漂亮的女孩，摆脱这种恐惧，接近她，练习。

Do it again and again, it’s pretty banal, but this advice works.

一次又一次地这样做，这很平庸，但这个建议很有效。

Fix the underlying problem, which is usually at the very bottom, is always going to be fear.

解决根本问题，通常是在最底层，永远是恐惧。

09:11 Work on that.

努力吧。

And very often people are trying to escape something in their lives with alcohol.

很多时候，人们试图用酒精来逃避生活中的某些事情。

09:17 What is it they’re trying to escape?

他们到底想逃避什么？

What is this problem?

这是什么问题？

You have to get to the bottom of it.

你必须追根究底。

Your mind is trying to tell you something valuable, and instead of addressing it directly, you are flooding it in alcohol, which is a spiritual painkiller, but works only temporarily and then you have to pay the debt with interest.

你的头脑试图告诉你一些有价值的事情，但你没有直接解决它，而是用酒精淹没它，这是一种精神止痛药，但只能暂时起作用，然后你必须连本带利地偿还债务。

So what do you do?

那么你做什么呢？

09:51 I mean, you’ve been in a lot of gatherings, a lot of parties.

我的意思是，你参加过很多聚会、很多派对。

Is there some challenges to saying no?

说不有一些挑战吗？

For me, not at all.

对我来说，一点也不。

09:58 I’ve been always ready to stand my ground and say no when I feel something’s not right.

当我感觉事情不对时，我总是准备坚持自己的立场并说不。

And it’s extraordinary how easily we humans are affected by what we perceive as a majority.

令人惊奇的是，我们人类很容易受到我们所认为的大多数人的影响。

Because nobody since ancient times, since million years ago wants to be left out by the tribe.

因为自古以来，从百万年前开始，没有人愿意被部落排除在外。

We are scared that we won’t become accepted anymore, which thousands of millions of years ago meant we’re going to starve to death.

我们害怕我们不再被接受，这在数亿年前意味着我们会饿死。

So we have to consciously fight this inclination to be agreeable with everything that the majority imposes on you because it’s quite clear that many things that the majority, many activities the majority is engaging in are not bringing you any good.

因此，我们必须有意识地抵制这种同意大多数人强加给你的一切的倾向，因为很明显，大多数人从事的许多事情、许多活动不会给你带来任何好处。

So that’s another fear you have to face, going into a party and the fear of being the outcast at that party, of being different than others at that party, at that social gathering.

所以这是你必须面对的另一种恐惧，参加一个聚会，害怕在那个聚会上被排斥，害怕在那个聚会上、那个社交聚会上与其他人不同。

11:03 In the crowd of humans, be different.

在人群中，与众不同。

That’s a fear.

那是一种恐惧。

That’s a fear.

那是一种恐惧。

11:17 And it’s quite irrational if you think about it.

如果你仔细想想，这是非常不合理的。

It was something that made a lot of sense 20,000 years ago.

这在 20,000 年前是很有意义的事情。

It makes zero sense today because if you think about it, if you do the same thing everybody else around you is doing, you don’t have any competitive advantage and you don’t get to become outstanding at some point in your life.

今天这毫无意义，因为如果你仔细想想，如果你做周围其他人都在做的同样的事情，你就没有任何竞争优势，也不会在人生的某个时刻变得杰出。

Yeah, that’s one of the things we talked about by way of advice is, if you want to be successful in life, you want to be different.

是的，这就是我们通过建议讨论的事情之一，如果你想在生活中取得成功，你就想与众不同。

Definitely.

确实。

And perhaps, I think you said you want to achieve mastery at a niche.

也许，我想你说过你想在一个利基市场上达到精通。

11:56 So find a niche at which you can pursue with all your effort and achieve mastery, and the niche being different than anything that anybody else is doing.

因此，找到一个你可以全力追求并精通的利基市场，并且这个利基市场与其他人正在做的任何事情都不同。

Can you explain that a little bit more?

你能再解释一下吗？

So obviously in order to contribute to the society you’re in, to the economy of the country you live in, you have to do something that is valuable.

显然，为了为你所在的社会、为你所居住的国家的经济做出贡献，你必须做一些有价值的事情。

12:13 But if you’re doing something that everybody else is doing anyway, what’s the value of it?

但如果你正在做其他人都在做的事情，那么它的价值是什么？

Now it sounds easier than it is done, to do something that nobody else is doing, because we humans are surrounded by all kinds of information, which makes us want to copy what we’re perceiving.

现在，做别人没有做的事情听起来比做起来容易，因为我们人类被各种各样的信息包围，这让我们想要复制我们所感知的东西。

At the same time, there are so many areas which you can explore, that have nothing to do with the information you receive on the daily basis.

同时，还有很多领域可供您探索，而这些领域与您每天收到的信息无关。

So it’s extremely important to curate the information sources that you have, so that you wouldn’t be somebody who is left to the will of AI-based algorithmic feed telling you what’s important so that you end up consuming the same information, the same stuff, the same memes, the same news as everybody else.

因此，管理你所拥有的信息源非常重要，这样你就不会成为一个任由基于人工智能的算法告诉你什么是重要的，这样你最终就会和其他人一样消费相同的信息、相同的东西、相同的模因、相同的新闻。

13:24 But rather you should be proactive.

但相反，你应该积极主动。

You should deliberately try to set a goal, an area that you want to explore, and then actively search information that is relevant to this field, so that one day you can become the world’s number one expert in this field.

你应该刻意尝试设定一个目标，一个你想要探索的领域，然后积极地搜索与这个领域相关的信息，这样有一天你就能成为这个领域的世界第一专家。

And it’s not that difficult to do that.

做到这一点并不难。

You have to just remain consistent because nobody else is trying to do that.

你必须保持一致，因为没有其他人试图这样做。

Everybody else is just reading the same news and discussing the same news every day.

其他人每天都只是阅读相同的新闻并讨论相同的新闻。

But this way they don’t get to have a competitive advantage.

但这样他们就无法获得竞争优势。

Yeah, majority of the population becomes slaves to the AI-driven recommender systems, and so the content everybody’s fed is the same thing and we all become the same.

是的，大多数人都成为了人工智能驱动的推荐系统的奴隶，所以每个人吃的内容都是一样的，我们都变得一样了。

14:08 On that point, one of the different things you do is, you don’t use a phone except occasionally to test Telegram features, but I’ve been with you for two weeks, I haven’t seen you use a phone at all in the way that most people use a phone, like for their social media.

在这一点上，你所做的不同的事情之一是，你不使用手机，除非偶尔测试 Telegram 功能，但我和你在一起已经两周了，我根本没有看到你像大多数人使用手机一样使用手机，比如社交媒体。

So can you describe your philosophy behind that?

那么您能描述一下您背后的哲学吗？

I don’t think a phone is a necessary device.

我不认为手机是必要的设备。

14:40 I remember growing up, I didn’t have a mobile phone.

我记得小时候，我没有手机。

When I was a student at the university, I didn’t have a mobile phone.

当我还是一名大学学生时，我没有手机。

When I finally got to use a mobile phone, I never used phone calls.

当我终于开始使用手机时，我再也没有打电话过。

I was always in airplane mode or mute.

我总是处于飞行模式或静音。

I hated the idea of being disturbed.

我讨厌被打扰的想法。

My philosophy here is pretty simple, I want to define what is important in my life.

我的哲学很简单，我想定义我生活中重要的事情。

I don’t want other people or companies, all kinds of organizations telling me what is important today, and what I should be thinking about.

我不希望其他人或公司、各种组织告诉我今天什么是重要的，以及我应该考虑什么。

Just set up your own agenda and the phone gets in your way.

只需设置您自己的议程，手机就会妨碍您。

It provides distractions, it guides what you should be looking at, what you will be looking at.

它提供了干扰，它指导你应该看什么，你将看什么。

15:40 So you don’t want that.

所以你不想要那样。

You want to quiet the mind.

你想让心安静下来。

You want to choose what kind of stuff you let inside your mind.

你想要选择让什么样的东西进入你的脑海。

Yes, because this way I can contribute to the progress of society.

是的，因为这样我就能为社会的进步做出贡献。

15:55 Or at least I like to think this way and this makes me happier.

或者至少我喜欢这样思考，这让我更快乐。

How often do you find quiet time to just think and focus deeply on work without any distractions?

您是否经常找到安静的时间来思考并专注于工作而不受任何干扰？

16:03 You mentioned to me that you value quiet mornings.

你向我提到你重视安静的早晨。

Yes.

是的。

16:13 So the thing I’m trying to do, I try to allocate as much time as possible for sleep.

所以我想做的事情是，我尝试分配尽可能多的时间来睡觉。

Now, even if I allocate say 11 or 12 hours for sleep, I won’t sleep for 11 or 12 hours.

现在，即使我分配11或12个小时的睡眠时间，我也不会睡11或12个小时。

So what I end up doing is, I end up lying in bed thinking.

所以我最终所做的是，我最终躺在床上思考。

And some people hate it.

有些人讨厌它。

They say, “Well, you have to take a sleeping pill,” but I never take pills.

他们说，“好吧，你必须吃安眠药”，但我从不吃药。

I love these moments.

我喜欢这些时刻。

I get so many brilliant ideas, or at least they seem brilliant to me at the moment, while I’m lying in bed, either late in the evening or early in the morning.

当我躺在床上时，无论是深夜还是清晨，我都会得到很多绝妙的想法，或者至少它们对我来说似乎很绝妙。

That’s my favorite time of the day.

那是我一天中最喜欢的时间。

Sometimes I wake up, I go take a shower, still without a phone.

有时我醒来，去洗澡，仍然没有手机。

17:03 Beautiful ideas can come to you while you’re doing your morning exercise, your morning routine without a phone.

当您进行晨练时，即在没有手机的情况下进行早晨例行公事时，您可能会想到美好的想法。

If you open your phone first thing in the morning, what you end up being is a creature that is told what to think about for the rest of the day.

如果你早上第一件事就是打开手机，那么你最终就会成为一个被告知这一天剩下的时间要思考什么的生物。

Same is true in a way if you’ve been consuming news from social media late at night.

如果你在深夜阅读社交媒体上的新闻，在某种程度上也是如此。

But then how do you define what is important and what you really want to become in life?

但是，你如何定义生活中什么是重要的以及你真正想成为什么？

Now, I’m not saying you have to completely stay away from all sources of information, but take some time to think about what’s really important for you and what you want to change in this world.

现在，我并不是说你必须完全远离所有信息来源，而是花一些时间思考什么对你来说真正重要，以及你想改变这个世界的什么。

So you definitely try to avoid digital devices for as many hours as possible in the morning, just to have the quiet thinking time, plus the crazy amounts of push-ups and squats?

所以你肯定会在早上尽可能多的时间避免电子设备，只是为了有安静的思考时间，再加上疯狂的俯卧撑和深蹲？

I know it’s counterintuitive because I founded one of the largest social networks in the world, after which I founded the second-largest messaging app in the world.

我知道这是违反直觉的，因为我创建了世界上最大的社交网络之一，之后我又创建了世界第二大消息应用程序。

18:02 And you’re supposed to be really connected, but the conclusion you reach very early is that the more connected and accessible you are, the less productive you are.

你应该真正保持联系，但你很早就得出的结论是，你的联系越多、越容易接近，你的生产力就越低。

And then how can you run this thing if you’re constantly bombarded by all kinds of information, most of which is irrelevant to the success of what you’re trying to build?

如果你不断受到各种信息的轰炸，而其中大部分与你想要构建的东西的成功无关，那么你如何运行这个东西呢？

The entire world can be fascinated by a fight, a quarrel between the world’s richest man and the world’s most powerful man.

全世界都对世界首富和世界上最有权势的人之间的争斗、争吵着迷。

But for the vast majority of these people following this saga, it’s irrelevant.

但对于绝大多数关注这个传奇的人来说，这无关紧要。

It won’t change their lives, and in any case, they can’t affect it, so it’s a bit pointless.

不会改变他们的生活，无论如何也影响不了他们，所以有点没有意义。

Of course, there are people who are engaged in activities that require them to be up-to-date of everything that’s going on, but 99% of people aren’t.

当然，有些人从事的活动要求他们了解最新发生的一切，但 99% 的人并非如此。

Yeah, the internet, social media presents to us drama in such a way that we think it’s the biggest thing in the world, the most important thing in which the tides of history will turn.

是的，互联网、社交媒体以这样一种方式向我们呈现戏剧，我们认为这是世界上最重要的事情，也是历史潮流扭转的最重要的事情。

19:19 But in reality, most things will not turn the tides of history.

但事实上，大多数事情都不会扭转历史的潮流。

And so I guess our challenge is to figure out what is the timeless thing?

所以我想我们的挑战是弄清楚什么是永恒的东西？

What is the thing that’s happening today that’s still going to be true in 10, 20 years?

今天发生的事情有哪些在 10 年、20 年后仍然会发生？

And from that, decide what you’re going to do.

然后，决定你要做什么。

And that’s very difficult on social media because everybody’s outraged.

这在社交媒体上非常困难，因为每个人都感到愤怒。

The news of the day, whatever the quarrel is, that’s the thing that everyone thinks the world will end because of this thing, and then another thing happens the next day.

当天的新闻，无论争吵是什么，那就是每个人都认为世界会因为这件事而终结，然后第二天又发生另一件事。

And they’re trying to influence your emotions.

他们试图影响你的情绪。

Yeah.

是的。

And that’s how you get into trouble because you can be forced to make conclusions that are not in your best interest.

这就是你陷入麻烦的原因，因为你可能被迫做出不符合你最佳利益的结论。

I’ve seen you be, once again, quite stoic about your emotions.

我再次看到你对自己的情绪表现得非常克制。

20:17 You ever get angry?

你有生气过吗？

You ever get lonely?

你曾经感到孤独吗？

You ever get sad?

你有过悲伤的时候吗？

The roller coaster of human emotion, and what do you do with that when you make difficult decisions?

人类情感就像坐过山车一样，当你做出艰难的决定时，你会怎么做？

I’m a human being like everybody else.

我和其他人一样是一个人。

20:31 I do get to experience emotions.

我确实能够体验到情绪。

Some of them are not very pleasant, but I believe that it’s the responsibility of every one of us to cope with these emotions and to learn to work through them.

其中一些情绪不太令人愉快，但我相信我们每个人都有责任应对这些情绪并学会克服它们。

Self-discipline is particularly important because without it, how can you overcome this seemingly endless loop of negativity or despair that ultimately leads to depression for some people?

自律尤为重要，因为没有自律，你如何克服这种看似无休止的消极或绝望循环，最终导致某些人抑郁？

I normally never have depression.

我通常从来没有抑郁症。

I don’t remember having depression in the last 20 years, at least.

至少我不记得过去 20 年里有过抑郁症。

Maybe when I was a teenager.

也许当我十几岁的时候。

But one of the reasons for that is I start doing things.

但原因之一是我开始做事。

21:25 I identify the problem, I can see a solution, and I start executing the strategy.

我发现了问题，找到了解决方案，然后开始执行策略。

If you are stuck in this loop of being worried about something, nothing’s ever going to change.

如果你陷入担心某事的循环中，那么什么都不会改变。

And people often make this mistake thinking, “Oh, I should just have some rest and then regain energy.” This is not how it works.

人们经常犯这样的错误：“哦，我应该休息一下，然后恢复精力。”事情不是这样的。

You gain energy by doing something, so you start doing something, then it happens, you feel motivated, you feel inspired.

你通过做某事获得能量，所以你开始做某事，然后它发生了，你感到有动力，你感到受到启发。

And then ultimately you do something else, a little bit more, a little bit more.

然后最终你会做一些别的事情，多一点，多一点。

And then a few years, who know?

然后几年，谁知道呢？

You may end up achieving great things.

你最终可能会取得伟大的成就。

Yeah, that’s the thing that people are confused.

是的，这就是人们感到困惑的地方。

22:12 If you’re stuck in a depressive cycle, even when you really, really, really, really don’t want to do anything, to do something.

如果你陷入抑郁循环，即使你真的、真的、真的、真的不想做任何事，不想做某事。

Try to make progress because the good feeling comes on the end of that.

努力取得进步，因为良好的感觉就会随之而来。

The whole point is to do first and then feel, not feel and then do.

重点是先做然后感觉，而不是感觉然后做。

Exactly.

确切地。

22:33 And going to the gym is a good example.

去健身房就是一个很好的例子。

There are many days when you don’t want to start working out, but you have to overcome this initial reluctance, and then you get to a point that you enjoy it and you think, “Oh my God, it was such a good idea to come to the gym today.” But it’s similar to pretty much every activity.

有很多天你不想开始锻炼，但你必须克服这种最初的不情愿，然后你就会享受它，你会想，“天哪，今天来健身房真是个好主意。”但这几乎与所有活动相似。

You get to write some code, write a small piece of code first, and then you get inspired.

你可以写一些代码，先写一小段代码，然后你就会受到启发。

Then you’ll come up with more ideas.

然后你就会想出更多的想法。

You need to write a novel or just write the paragraph.

你需要写一本小说或者只写段落。

This is pretty obvious and it’s not a secret, but because we are bombarded with all kinds of information, that is not really important for us in terms of becoming successful, we often forget the important things, and this is one of them.

这是很明显的，也不是秘密，但因为我们被各种各样的信息轰炸，这对我们的成功来说并不重要，我们经常忘记重要的事情，这就是其中之一。

We’ve been working out every single day.

我们每天都在锻炼。

23:32 You have been working out for many years pretty intensively, so I think a lot of people would love to know what’s your perfect daily workout regimen?

您多年来一直进行高强度锻炼，所以我想很多人都想知道您完美的日常锻炼方案是什么？

Let’s say on a daily, weekly basis?

比如说每天、每周？

I do 300 push-ups and 300 squats every morning.

我每天早上做300个俯卧撑和300个深蹲。

23:50 And in addition to that, I go to the gym normally five, six times a week, spending between one and two hours every day.

除此之外，我通常每周去健身房五六次，每天花一到两个小时。

So push-ups and squats are still a big part of your routine?

那么俯卧撑和深蹲仍然是你日常活动的重要组成部分吗？

Yes, this is how I start my day.

是的，这就是我开始新的一天的方式。

24:07 I’m not sure they do a lot in terms of changing your body, but they’re definitely a good way to practice self-discipline because you don’t want to do these push-ups in the morning most of the days.

我不确定它们对改变你的身体有多大作用，但它们绝对是练习自律的好方法，因为大多数时候你不想在早上做这些俯卧撑。

Squats are particularly boring.

深蹲特别无聊。

They’re not that hard, they’re just boring, but you overcome it and then it’s much easier to start doing other things related to your work.

它们并不难，只是很无聊，但是你克服了它，然后就可以更容易地开始做与你的工作相关的其他事情。

For example, when I can, I also take an ice bath because it’s another exercise of self-discipline.

例如，如果可以的话，我也会洗个冰浴，因为这是另一种自律练习。

I think the main muscle you can exercise is this muscle, the muscle of self-discipline.

我觉得你能锻炼的主要肌肉就是这块肌肉，自律的肌肉。

Not your biceps or your pecs or anything else.

不是你的二头肌、胸肌或其他任何东西。

Because if you get to train that one, everything else just comes by itself.

因为如果你能训练那个人，其他一切都会自然而然地发生。

Everything else becomes easy.

其他一切都变得容易。

25:07 We should mention, I went with you to Banya, and I think it’s fair to say you’re nuts in terms of how much you can handle.

我们应该提一下，我和你一起去了巴尼亚，我认为可以公平地说，就你能处理的程度而言，你疯了。

And I didn’t even see the worst of it.

而且我什至没有看到最糟糕的情况。

Can you just speak to your crazy escapades in the Banya, what value you get from it?

您能谈谈您在巴尼亚的疯狂冒险经历吗？您从中获得了什么价值？

So both the heat and the cold.

所以既热又冷。

I don’t know if it’s crazy.

我不知道这是否疯狂。

25:31 I think it’s quite natural and normal by this time, but maybe I just got used to it.

我认为这时候这是很自然和正常的，但也许我只是习惯了。

So Banya is this extreme kind of sauna practiced by Eastern Europeans, but it is done in a way that maximizes heat and they also use all kind of herbs and branches, and it’s a much more holistic and natural experience.

所以Banya是东欧人实行的一种极端的桑拿，但它是以最大限度地提高热量的方式进行的，他们还使用各种草药和树枝，这是一种更加全面和自然的体验。

Then the necessary part of it is you get the cold plunge and then you go back.

然后必要的部分是你先进行一次冷跳，然后再返回。

And again, this is one of those things that maybe in the moment it’s not always that pleasant, particularly if you go to extreme temperatures, you don’t feel great.

再说一次，这可能是目前并不总是那么令人愉快的事情之一，特别是当你处于极端温度时，你感觉不太好。

26:24 I don’t always feel great, but this feeling is passing.

我并不总是感觉很好，但这种感觉正在过去。

It’s only a few minutes.

只需几分钟。

Same with the ice bath.

与冰浴相同。

You have to suffer a bit and then you get to feel great for hours and days after.

你必须承受一点痛苦，然后你会在接下来的几个小时和几天里感觉良好。

What’s more, it gives you this long-term health benefits.

更重要的是，它还能为您带来长期的健康益处。

In a way you can look at it as alcohol in reverse.

在某种程度上，你可以把它看作相反的酒精。

Alcohol will give you this short, fleeting pleasure for an hour, for a couple of hours, but then you will be paying for it with long-term negative consequences.

酒精会给你带来短暂的、转瞬即逝的快乐，持续一个小时、几个小时，但随后你将为此付出长期的负面后果。

I’d rather do Banya and ice bath.

我宁愿做桑拿浴和冰浴。

We swam the length of a large lake in France a couple times.

我们游过法国一个大湖好几次。

27:09 Can you talk through why you value these multi-hour swims?

您能谈谈为什么您重视这些几个小时的游泳吗？

Yeah.

是的。

27:17 I love swimming for hours.

我喜欢游泳几个小时。

The longest I swam was five and a half hours in Finland.

我在芬兰游的最长的一次是五个半小时。

It was quite cold.

天气很冷。

I got lost in the process, barely could find my way back.

我在这个过程中迷失了方向，几乎找不到回去的路。

But the reason I do it, yes, you feel great after.

但我这样做的原因是，是的，之后你感觉很棒。

You’re shaking a little bit, you feel great after.

你有点发抖，之后你感觉很好。

You cross a huge lake, and I cross many lakes, Geneva Lake, Zurich Lake.

你穿过一个巨大的湖，我穿过许多个湖，日内瓦湖、苏黎世湖。

And every time you feel this achievement, which makes you happy, makes you feel strong, and then you’re more ready to do other challenges.

每当你感受到这种成就时，你就会感到快乐，让你感觉坚强，然后你就更准备好迎接其他挑战。

And of course, when you know you’re going to start a journey that will last a few hours, you are reluctant to do it.

当然，当你知道你要开始一段持续几个小时的旅程时，你会不愿意这样做。

But you swim for 10 minutes and then for 20 minutes and then for 30 minutes, and it teaches you this incredible patience that I think is necessary if you want to achieve anything in life.

但是你游10分钟，然后游20分钟，然后游30分钟，它会教会你这种令人难以置信的耐心，我认为如果你想在生活中取得任何成就，这种耐心是必要的。

And it’s pretty meditative, lake versus ocean.

这是非常令人沉思的，湖泊与海洋。

Yes.

是的。

28:27 And you don’t have to go too fast.

而且你不必走得太快。

You can be slow and enjoy the moment.

你可以慢慢来，享受这一刻。

Until you get lost and it’s five and a half hours.

直到你迷路为止，已经是五个半小时了。

28:33 Would you panic, if you’re going to be able to find the shore, find your way out?

如果你能找到海岸、找到出路，你会惊慌吗？

Not really, I’m a reasonably stress-resilient person.

不完全是，我是一个有一定抗压能力的人。

28:39 I didn’t panic at that moment.

那一刻我并不惊慌。

And there were worse swims I had that were shorter, but involved accidents and you know about some of them.

我也有过更糟糕的游泳，时间较短，但也涉及事故，你知道其中一些。

So that wasn’t the worst by far.

所以到目前为止这还不是最糟糕的。

But an important thing about swimming and physical activity in general is that it makes your mind clear and your thinking process is becoming more efficient.

但总的来说，游泳和体育活动的一个重要之处在于，它可以让你的头脑清晰，你的思维过程变得更加高效。

Because at the end of the day, the efficiency of our brain is limited by how much sugar and oxygen our heart can push through blood to our brain though.

因为归根结底，我们大脑的效率受到心脏可以通过血液输送到大脑的糖和氧气量的限制。

How can you make this go faster or how do you make your lungs more efficient?

如何才能让这一切进展得更快或者如何让你的肺部更有效率？

How do you make your heart more efficient in doing that?

如何让你的心脏更有效率地做到这一点？

29:33 Physical activity is the only way I know of.

体育锻炼是我所知道的唯一方法。

So it’s not just staying healthy or trying to look good, it’s also being productive.

因此，这不仅仅是保持健康或努力让自己看起来漂亮，还在于提高工作效率。

It’s also being stress resilient.

它还具有抗压能力。

All of these qualities are necessary if you want to run a large company, if you want to start a company.

如果你想经营一家大公司，如果你想创办一家公司，所有这些品质都是必要的。

I’m surprised when I started doing this more than 10 years ago, that more CEOs didn’t engage in sports.

当我十多年前开始这样做时，我感到惊讶的是，越来越多的首席执行官不参与体育运动。

The situation changed in the last several years, which is great.

过去几年情况发生了变化，这是伟大的。

Because back in the day, if you take 20 years ago, there was this stereotype that if you are strong, you must be not very smart and vice versa.

因为在20年前，人们有这样的刻板印象：如果你很强大，你一定不是很聪明，反之亦然。

Which is a complete lunacy.

这完全是疯了。

Very often these two things go together.

很多时候，这两件事是同时发生的。

So for you working out is not just about staying healthy, it’s actually valuable for the work that you do as a tech leader, as an engineer, as a technologist.

因此，对于你来说，锻炼不仅仅是为了保持健康，它实际上对你作为技术领导者、工程师、技术专家所做的工作很有价值。

Oh yes.

哦是的。

30:43 When I can’t train, I can instantly feel that stress is creeping on me.

当我无法训练时，我会立即感觉到压力正在向我袭​​来。

So even in situations when I’m constrained, I can’t go to the gym, I would just keep doing push-ups.

所以即使在我受到限制的情况下，我不能去健身房，我也会继续做俯卧撑。

I just keep doing squats.

我只是坚持做深蹲。

Yeah, I mean that’s the cool thing about body weight exercise.

是的，我的意思是，这就是自重锻炼的酷之处。

31:06 You could just do it anywhere.

你可以在任何地方做。

You could just pop off 50, 100 push-ups before a meeting.

你可以在会议前做 50、100 个俯卧撑。

Don’t you feel weird when you have a day without physical activity?

当你一天没有体力活动时，你不觉得奇怪吗？

Yeah.

是的。

31:21 If I go a day without doing push-ups, at the very minimum, it’s a shitty day.

如果我一天不做俯卧撑，至少，这是糟糕的一天。

And if you can do pull-ups, it’s even better.

如果你能做引体向上，那就更好了。

Yeah.

是的。

31:30 I got to ask you about your diet too.

我还想问一下你的饮食习惯。

No processed sugar, no fast food, no soda.

没有加工糖，没有快餐，没有苏打水。

Intermittent fasting, sometimes once a day only, sometimes a couple times a day.

间歇性禁食，有时一天一次，有时一天几次。

So take me through your philosophy on the no sugar, no soda, just clean food.

那么请带我了解一下您关于不加糖、不喝苏打水、只吃清洁食品的理念。

Well, sugar is pretty easy because it’s addictive.

嗯，糖很容易上瘾，因为它会让人上瘾。

31:47 The more you consume sugar, the more you want it, the hungrier you get.

你吃的糖越多，你就越想要它，你就越饥饿。

So if you want to stay efficient and healthy, why consume processed sugar?

因此，如果您想保持高效和健康，为什么要食用加工糖呢？

You’ll just end up snacking all the time.

你最终只会一直吃零食。

Intermittent fasting.

间歇性禁食。

So eating only within six hours and not eating for 18 hours every day also brings structure into your day and into your eating habits.

因此，每天只在 6 小时内进食和 18 小时不进食也会让您的一天和饮食习惯变得井井有条。

So you don’t crave sugar anymore because you know if you eat sugar and then you’re unable to snack, you’re just punishing yourself.

所以你不再渴望吃糖，因为你知道如果你吃糖然后你就不能吃零食，你只是在惩罚自己。

I read a few books on longevity.

我读了几本关于长寿的书。

I think something everybody agrees on is that sugar is harmful.

我认为每个人都同意糖是有害的。

32:48 No, I’m not militant about sugar.

不，我对糖并不激进。

You can eat berries, fruit, if you feel your body needs it, but it’s not true to think it’s necessary to consume sweet things.

如果你觉得你的身体需要的话，你可以吃浆果、水果，但认为有必要吃甜食是错误的。

Not for children, not for adults.

不适合儿童，也不适合成人。

Red meat, I stopped eating it about 20 years ago because I just felt heavy every time I had it.

红肉，大约20年前我就不再吃它了，因为每次吃的时候我都觉得很重。

So I guess it’s individual.

所以我想这是因人而异的。

It’s my metabolism.

这是我的新陈代谢。

My digestive system isn’t agreeing with this kind of food.

我的消化系统不适合这种食物。

So I normally eat seafood of all kinds and vegetables.

所以我一般都会吃各种海鲜和蔬菜。

This is the basic source of calories for me.

这是我热量的基本来源。

Yeah, and like all things, you said, “Short-term pleasure isn’t worth your future.” So a lot of things we all know, that alcohol is destructive to the body.

是的，就像所有事情一样，你说过，“短期的快乐不值得你的未来。”所以很多事情我们都知道，酒精对身体有破坏性。

33:37 Tobacco, pills, processed food, sugar, but society puts that on you, makes it very difficult to avoid.

烟草、药片、加工食品、糖，但社会把这些强加给你，让你很难避免。

So I guess it all boils down to just discipline.

所以我想这一切都可以归结为纪律。

Yes, and trying to identify the real cause of an issue you’re experiencing.

是的，并尝试找出您遇到的问题的真正原因。

33:56 If you’re experiencing a headache, one solution would be to take a pill and then the headache disappears.

如果您感到头痛，一种解决方案是服用药物，然后头痛就会消失。

What this pill would actually do, in most cases, it would mute the consequence, your feeling of pain.

在大多数情况下，这种药丸实际上会起到作用，它会减轻后果，即你的疼痛感。

It’s a painkiller.

这是一种止痛药。

It will not eliminate the root cause.

它不会消除根本原因。

So you have to ask yourself, ” What is it that’s causing this headache?

所以你必须问自己：“是什么导致了头痛？

Do I need to drink some water?

我需要喝点水吗？

Is the air quality here bad?

这里的空气质量不好吗？

Do I need to start getting more sleep?

我需要开始增加睡眠吗？

Is there something wrong with people around me?

我周围的人有什么问题吗？

They’re stressing me out.” There must be some reason why you’re experiencing a headache.

他们让我压力很大。”您感到头痛一定有某种原因。

But if you take a pill, you’re not removing this reason, you’re actually making it worse because this harmful factor is still there.

但如果你服用药物，你并没有消除这个原因，实际上你会让情况变得更糟，因为这个有害因素仍然存在。

It’s like you’re-

就好像你是——

35:00 Full factor is still there.

完整的因素仍然存在。

It’s like you’re piloting a helicopter and there is some red signals and red lamp starts to blink and it starts producing bad, unpleasant noise.

这就像你正在驾驶一架直升机，有一些红色信号，红灯开始闪烁，并且开始产生糟糕的、令人不愉快的噪音。

What would you do?

你会怎么办？

You would try to figure out the cause and eliminate it.

你会尝试找出原因并消除它。

Maybe there is some mountain next to you and you have to avoid it, or you take a hammer and smash the signal.

也许你旁边有一座山，你必须避开它，或者你拿着锤子砸碎信号。

I think the answer is quite obvious.

我认为答案是很明显的。

So, why are we constantly doing this regardless?

那么，为什么我们总是这样做呢？

Oh, because everybody else is doing it.

哦，因为其他人都在这样做。

Because there’s a whole industry trying to persuade you that this is the right thing to do.

因为整个行业都在试图说服你这是正确的做法。

So, it’s incredibly important to analyze yourself and try to get to the bottom of things.

因此，分析自己并试图弄清事情的真相非常重要。

So you generally try to avoid all pills, all pharmaceutical products?

所以您通常会尽量避免使用所有药丸、所有药品？

Yes.

是的。

35:53 I’ve been staying away from all of that since I became an adult.

自从我成年后，我就一直远离这一切。

When you’re a teenager, your mom would typically say, “We need to take this pill, otherwise the world collapses.” Once I became a grown-up, I said, “No, I don’t think that the producers of pill are incentivized in the right way.

当你十几岁的时候，你妈妈通常会说：“我们需要服用这种药，否则世界就会崩溃。”当我长大后，我说：“不，我认为药丸生产商没有以正确的方式受到激励。

They’re not really interested in eliminating the root of the problem.” They would rather have me dependent on the pills they’re producing so that I could buy them forever.

他们对消除问题的根源并不真正感兴趣。”他们宁愿让我依赖他们生产的药丸，这样我就可以永远购买它们。

No, I’m not saying that you should never take pills.

不，我并不是说你永远不应该吃药。

There are obviously some diseases that you can only fight with antibiotics, for example.

例如，显然有些疾病只能用抗生素来对抗。

So, I’m not suggesting we go back to the Middle Ages, but what I’m saying is we overuse pills.

所以，我并不是建议我们回到中世纪，而是说我们过度使用药物。

Yeah, it’s always good to study and deeply understand the incentives under which the world operates so that you don’t get swept up into the forces that operate under these incentives.

是的，研究并深入了解世界运作的激励因素总是好的，这样你就不会被这些激励因素所影响。

36:59 Big Pharma is certainly one of them.

大型制药公司当然是其中之一。

Pharmaceutical companies have a huge incentive to keep the problem going versus solving the problem.

制药公司有巨大的动力去解决问题而不是继续解决问题。

It’s wise.

这是明智的。

This is something I practice every day.

这是我每天都练习的事情。

37:19 I read some piece of news and I ask myself, “Who benefits from me reading this?” Then you can end up coming to this conclusion that maybe 95% of things we read in the news have been written and published because somebody wanted you to buy some product, support some political cause, fight some war, donate some money.

我读了一些新闻，然后问自己：“谁从我读到的这篇文章中受益？”然后你最终可以得出这样的结论：也许我们在新闻中读到的 95% 的内容都是因为有人希望你购买某些产品、支持某些政治事业、打一些战争、捐一些钱而编写和发表的。

Let’s do something that would benefit other people.

让我们做一些有益于他人的事情。

This is not a problem to support causes that you truly believe in as long as it was your intentional choice and you’re not being manipulated into fighting other people’s wars.

支持你真正相信的事业不是问题，只要这是你有意的选择，并且你没有被操纵去参加别人的战争。

And that takes us back to the original thing we started talking about, which is freedom.

这让我们回到了我们开始谈论的最初的事情，那就是自由。

38:14 One of the ways to achieve freedom of thought is to remove your mind from the influences, the forces that manipulate you.

实现思想自由的方法之一就是使你的思想远离操纵你的影响和力量。

That’s really important to realize the content you consume, especially on the internet, when a large percentage of it is designed to manipulate your mind.

了解您所消费的内容非常重要，尤其是在互联网上，因为其中很大一部分内容都是为了操纵您的思想。

You have to disconnect yourself.

你必须自己断开连接。

Be very proactive understanding what the biases, what the incentives are.

非常主动地了解偏见是什么，激励因素是什么。

So, you can think clearly, independently, and objectively.

所以，你可以清晰、独立、客观地思考。

Again, it ties back with restraint from alcohol because if your mind is clouded, how can you analyze yourself?

再说一遍，它与限制饮酒有关，因为如果你的头脑一片混乱，你如何分析自己？

38:51 You’ll always be dependent on opinions of others.

你将永远依赖别人的意见。

You always follow the mainstream.

你总是追随主流。

And then whatever the authorities or whoever in charge will tell you, you believe it because you don’t have a tool of your own to rely on to come to your own conclusions.

然后，无论当局或任何负责人告诉你什么，你都会相信它，因为你没有自己的工具可以依靠来得出自己的结论。

I have to ask you, this is something that came up.

我必须问你，这是出现的事情。

39:27 You don’t watch porn.

你不看色情片。

I don’t think I’ve heard you talk about this before.

我想我以前没听你谈过这个。

What’s the philosophy behind not watching porn?

不看色情片背后的哲学是什么？

There’s a lot of people that talk about porn in general having a very negative effect on young men on their view of the world, on their development of their sexuality and how they get into relationships and all that stuff.

很多人都在谈论色情片对年轻人的世界观、性欲发展以及如何建立人际关系等方面产生非常负面的影响。

So, what’s your philosophy in not consuming porn?

那么，你不消费色情片的理念是什么？

I don’t watch porn because I just feel it’s a surrogate, a substitute for a real thing that is not necessary in my life.

我不看色情片，因为我只是觉得它是我生活中不必要的真实事物的替代品。

39:55 If anything, it just forces you to exchange some energy, some inspiration to a fleeting moment of pleasure.

如果说有什么不同的话，它只是迫使你交换一些能量、一些灵感来换取短暂的快乐。

It doesn’t make sense.

这没有道理。

In any case, as I said, it’s not the real thing.

无论如何，正如我所说，这不是真实的事情。

So, as long as you can access the real thing, you don’t need to watch porn.

所以，只要你能接触到真实的东西，你就不需要看色情片。

But then if you can’t access the real thing, you shouldn’t watch porn as well because it means there’s some deficiency in your life, some problem that you have to overcome.

但如果你无法接触到真实的东西，你也不应该看色情片，因为这意味着你的生活中存在一些缺陷，一些你必须克服的问题。

Yeah, analyze the underlying cause.

嗯，分析一下根本原因。

40:45 Again, this goes back to the theme of investing in a long-term flourishing versus short-term pleasure.

这又回到了投资长期繁荣与短期快乐的主题。

There’s a theme to the way you approach life.

你对待生活的方式有一个主题。

I try to be strategic.

我努力保持战略性。

41:02 I try to act under assumption that I’m not going to die in one hour from now and I’m going to stick around for a bit despite the fact that we are all mortal.

我试着假设我一小时后不会死，并且我会坚持一段时间，尽管我们都是凡人。

So, why would I exchange the mid and long term for the short term?

那么，为什么我要把中长期换成短期呢？

It doesn’t make any sense.

这没有任何意义。

Quick pause, bathroom break.

快速暂停，上厕所。

Yeah, let’s take a break.

是的，我们休息一下吧。

All right.

好的。

41:26 We took a break and now we’re back.

我们休息了一下，现在回来了。

I got to ask you about Telegram, the company.

我得问你关于 Telegram 公司的事。

I got to meet some of the brilliant engineers that worked there.

我见到了在那里工作的一些出色的工程师。

Telegram runs lean relative to other technology companies that achieve the scale that Telegram does.

相对于其他达到 Telegram 规模的科技公司来说，Telegram 的运营较为精简。

It has very few employees.

它的员工很少。

So, how many people are on the core team?

那么，核心团队有多少人呢？

Let’s say the core engineering team.

比如说核心工程团队。

The core engineering team is about 40 people.

核心工程团队约40人。

41:48 This includes back-end, front-end, designers, system administrators.

这包括后端、前端、设计师、系统管理员。

Can you speak to the philosophy behind running a company with so few employees?

您能谈谈经营一家员工如此少的公司背后的理念吗？

Well, what we realized really early is that quantity of employees doesn’t translate the quality of the product they produce.

嗯，我们很早就意识到，员工的数量并不能转化为他们生产的产品的质量。

42:10 In many cases, it’s the opposite.

在很多情况下，情况恰恰相反。

If you have too many people, they have to coordinate their efforts, constantly communicate, and 90% of their time will be spent on coordinating the small pieces of work they’re responsible for between each other.

如果人太多，就得协调工作，不断沟通，90%的时间都会花在协调彼此之间负责的小工作上。

The other problem with having too many employees is that some of them won’t get enough work to do, and if they don’t get enough work to do, they demotivate everybody else by their mere existence.

员工过多的另一个问题是，他们中的一些人得不到足够的工作要做，如果他们没有得到足够的工作去做，他们的存在就会削弱其他人的积极性。

They’re still there, they’re still getting the salary, but they don’t do anything.

他们仍然在那里，仍然领取薪水，但他们什么也没做。

43:01 If they don’t do anything, more often than not, they will start trying to find their purpose elsewhere, maybe inside your team, but not by doing productive work, but by finding problems that don’t exist within the team.

如果他们什么都不做，通常情况下，他们会开始尝试在其他地方（也许是在你的团队内部）寻找自己的目标，但不是通过进行富有成效的工作，而是通过发现团队内部不存在的问题。

That can disrupt the team and the mood inside it even further.

这可能会进一步扰乱团队和团队内部的情绪。

Also, when you intentionally don’t allow some of your team members to hire more people to help them, they’ll be forced to automate things.

此外，当您故意不允许某些团队成员雇用更多人来帮助他们时，他们将被迫实现自动化。

In our case, we have tens of thousands of servers around the world, almost 100,000 distributed across several continents and data centers.

就我们而言，我们在全球拥有数万台服务器，其中近 100,000 台分布在几个大洲和数据中心。

44:02 If you try to manage this system manually without automation, you will probably end up hiring thousands of people, tens of thousands of people.

如果您尝试在没有自动化的情况下手动管理这个系统，您最终可能会雇用数千人、数万人。

But if you rely on algorithms and the team is forced to put together algorithms in order to manage it, then it becomes much more scalable, much more efficient, and interestingly, much more reliable as well.

但如果你依赖算法，并且团队被迫组合算法来管理它，那么它就会变得更具可扩展性、更高效，而且有趣的是，也更可靠。

And more resilient to the changing geopolitics, to the changing technology, all of that.

并且对不断变化的地缘政治、不断变化的技术等等更具弹性。

44:31 Because if you automate the distributed aspect of the data storage and all the compute, then that’s going to be resilient to everything the world throws at you.

因为如果您将数据存储和所有计算的分布式方面实现自动化，那么它将能够适应世界上发生的一切。

I suppose if you have people managing all of it, it becomes stale quickly.

我想如果有人管理所有这些，它很快就会变得陈旧。

Yes, humans are attack vectors, and if you have a distributed system that runs itself automatically, you have a chance at increasing the security of speed and speed of your service, this is what we did with Telegram, while also making it much more reliable.

是的，人类是攻击媒介，如果你有一个自动运行的分布式系统，你就有机会提高服务的速度和速度的安全性，这就是我们对 Telegram 所做的，同时也使其更加可靠。

44:54 Because if some part of the network goes down, you can still switch to the other parts of it.

因为如果网络的某个部分出现故障，您仍然可以切换到网络的其他部分。

Yeah.

是的。

45:25 One of the big ways you protect user privacy is that you store the data.

保护用户隐私的重要方法之一是存储数据。

The infrastructure side of Telegram is distributed across many legal jurisdictions with the decryption keys.

Telegram 的基础设施端分布在许多法律管辖区，并带有解密密钥。

So, it’s encrypted in cloud.

因此，它在云端进行了加密。

The decryption keys are split and kept in different locations so that no single government or entity can access the data.

解密密钥被分割并保存在不同的位置，因此任何政府或实体都无法访问数据。

Can you explain the strength of this approach?

您能解释一下这种方法的优点吗？

The way we designed Telegram is we never wanted to have any humans, any employees have any access to private messaging data.

我们设计 Telegram 的方式是我们从来不想让任何人、任何员工都可以访问私人消息数据。

45:55 That’s why since 2012 when we’ve been trying to come up with this design, we always invested a lot of effort into making sure that nobody can mess with it.

这就是为什么自 2012 年我们一直在尝试提出这个设计以来，我们总是投入大量的精力来确保没有人可以弄乱它。

If you hire an employee or any of the existing employee, it can’t break the system in a way that would allow them to access messages of users.

如果您雇用一名员工或任何现有员工，则不能以允许他们访问用户消息的方式破坏系统。

Then of course we launched end-to-end encrypted messaging that is even more protected, but it has certain limitations.

当然，我们推出了端到端的加密消息传递，受到更多的保护，但它有一定的局限性。

So, you still have to rely on an encrypted cloud.

因此，您仍然必须依赖加密的云。

So, an interesting engineering challenge was how you make sure that no point of failure can be created within your team or outside.

因此，一个有趣的工程挑战是如何确保团队内部或外部不会出现任何故障点。

So no employee can even access user messages.

因此，没有员工可以访问用户消息。

46:58 So, that’s the thing.

所以，就是这样。

We talk about encryption, we talk about privacy, we talk about security, all these kinds of things.

我们谈论加密，我们谈论隐私，我们谈论安全，所有这些事情。

I think the number one thing that people are concerned about, about which there’s also misinformation, is about private messages.

我认为人们关心的第一件事是私人信息，这也存在错误信息。

So, Telegram is very, very protective of the private messages of users.

所以，Telegram 对用户的私人消息非常非常保护。

So, you’re saying employees never can access the private messages.

所以，你是说员工永远无法访问私人消息。

Have any governments or intelligence agencies ever accessed private user messages in the past?

过去是否有政府或情报机构访问过私人用户消息？

No, never.

不，从来没有。

47:38 Telegram has never shared a single private message with anyone, including governments and intelligence services.

Telegram 从未与任何人分享过任何私人消息，包括政府和情报部门。

If you try to access any server in any of the data center locations, it’s all encrypted.

如果您尝试访问任何数据中心位置的任何服务器，它都是加密的。

You can extract all the hard drives and analyze it, but you won’t get anything.

你可以提取所有硬盘并进行分析，但你不会得到任何东西。

It’s all encrypted in the way that is undecipherable.

一切都以无法破译的方式加密。

That was very important for us.

这对我们来说非常重要。

That’s why we can say with confidence, there hasn’t been ever a leakage of data, any leak of data from Telegram.

这就是为什么我们可以自信地说，从来没有发生过数据泄露，任何来自 Telegram 的数据泄露。

Not in terms of private messages, not in terms of say contact lists.

不是私人消息，也不是联系人列表。

Do you see in the future a possible scenario where you might share user private messages with governments or with intelligence agencies?

您是否认为未来可能会与政府或情报机构共享用户私人消息？

No.

不。

48:39 We designed a system in a way that’s impossible.

我们以一种不可能的方式设计了一个系统。

It’ll require us to change the system and we won’t do that because we made a promise to our users.

这将要求我们改变系统，但我们不会这样做，因为我们向用户做出了承诺。

We would rather shut Telegram down in a certain country than do that.

我们宁愿在某个国家关闭 Telegram，也不愿这样做。

So that’s one of the principles you operate under is you go into protect user privacy.

因此，保护​​用户隐私就是您的运营原则之一。

I think it’s fundamental.

我认为这是根本性的。

49:03 Without the right to privacy, people can’t feel fully free and protected.

没有隐私权，人们就无法感到充分的自由和受到保护。

I mean, this is a good place to ask.

我的意思是，这是一个提问的好地方。

49:11 I’m sure you’re pressured by all kinds of people, all kinds of organizations to share private data.

我确信你受到各种各样的人、各种各样的组织的压力，要求你共享私人数据。

Where do you find the strength and the fearlessness to say no to everybody, including powerful intelligence agencies, including powerful governments, influential, powerful people?

你在哪里可以找到对所有人说“不”的力量和无畏精神，包括强大的情报机构，包括强大的政府、有影响力的、有权势的人？

I guess part of it is just me being me.

我想部分原因就是我就是我。

49:33 I stood up for myself and for my values since I was a little kid.

从我还是个孩子的时候起，我就为自己和我的价值观挺身而出。

I always had issues with my teachers because I would point out their mistakes during classes.

我总是和老师有矛盾，因为我会在课堂上指出他们的错误。

At the end of the day, what’s important is to remind yourself that you have nothing to lose.

归根结底，重要的是提醒自己，你没有什么可失去的。

They can think they blackmail you with something, they can threaten you with something, but what is it they really can really do to you?

他们可能认为他们用某事勒索你，他们可以用某事威胁你，但他们真正能对你做什么呢？

Worst case, they can kill you, but that brings us back to the first part of our discussion.

最坏的情况是，他们会杀了你，但这让我们回到了讨论的第一部分。

There’s no point living your life in fear.

生活在恐惧之中是没有意义的。

50:21 As for Telegram, it’s incredibly successful, but if we lose one market or two markets or pretty much all of the markets, I don’t care that much.

至于 Telegram，它非常成功，但如果我们失去一个或两个市场或几乎所有市场，我并不太在意。

It won’t affect me, it won’t affect my lifestyle in any way.

它不会影响我，也不会以任何方式影响我的生活方式。

I’ll still be doing my pushups.

我仍然会做俯卧撑。

So, you don’t like encryption, you don’t like privacy, you think you should ban encryption in your country, like the European Union is trying to do now for all the member states, well, go ahead and do that.

所以，你不喜欢加密，你不喜欢隐私，你认为你应该在你的国家禁止加密，就像欧盟现在试图为所有成员国做的那样，好吧，继续吧。

We’ll just quit this market.

我们将退出这个市场。

We won’t operate there.

我们不会在那里开展业务。

It’s not that important.

这并不重要。

They all think that somehow we profit from their citizens, and the only goal tech companies have is extracting revenues.

他们都认为我们以某种方式从他们的公民那里获利，而科技公司的唯一目标就是获取收入。

It’s true, most tech companies are like this, but there are projects like Telegram which are a bit different and I’m not sure they realize that.

确实，大多数科技公司都是这样，但是像 Telegram 这样的项目有点不同，我不确定他们是否意识到了这一点。

So for you, the value of maintaining your integrity in relation to your principles is more important than anything else.

因此，对您而言，保持诚信与原则的价值比其他任何事情都更重要。

51:23 Of course, we should say that you also have full ability and control to do just that because you, Pavel Durov, own 100% of Telegram.

当然，我们应该说你也有完全的能力和控制力来做到这一点，因为你，Pavel Durov，拥有 Telegram 100% 的股份。

So, there’s no anybody with a say on this question.

所以，对于这个问题，没有人有发言权。

There are no shareholders, which is quite unique.

没有股东，这是很独特的。

Very unique.

非常独特。

51:52 I don’t think there’s anything even close to that in any major tech company.

我认为在任何一家大型科技公司中都没有类似的东西。

And this allows us to operate the way we operate, to build this project and maintain it based on certain fundamental principles, which by the way, I think everybody believes in.

这使我们能够按照我们的运作方式来运作，根据某些基本原则来构建和维护这个项目，顺便说一句，我认为每个人都相信这些原则。

51:56 I think the right to privacy is included in the constitution of most countries, at least most Western countries, but it’s still under attack almost every week.

我认为隐私权已经被写入大多数国家的宪法，至少是大多数西方国家，但它仍然几乎每周都受到攻击。

It often starts with well-meaning proposals.

它通常以善意的建议开始。

Oh, we have to fight crime, we have to do that, we have to protect the children.

哦，我们必须打击犯罪，我们必须这样做，我们必须保护孩子们。

But at the end of the day, the result is the same.

但到最后，结果是一样的。

People lose their right to such fundamental thing as privacy.

人们失去了隐私等基本权利。

They sometimes lose their right to express themselves, to assemble.

他们有时会失去表达自己、集会的权利。

52:47 This is a slippery slope that we witnessed in pretty much every autocratic country or country that used to be free and then became autocratic.

这是我们在几乎每个专制国家或曾经自由但后来变得专制的国家中看到的一个滑坡。

No dictator in the world ever said, “Let’s just strip you away from your rights because I want more power to myself and I want you to be miserable.” They all justified it with very reasonable sounding justifications and then it came in stages gradually.

世界上没有一个独裁者说过：“让我们剥夺你的权利吧，因为我想要自己拥有更多权力，我希望你痛苦。”他们都用听起来非常合理的理由来证明这一点，然后逐步逐步进行。

After a few years, people would find themselves in a position when they’re helpless.

几年后，人们会发现自己处于无助的境地。

They can’t protest.

他们无法抗议。

Every message they sent is monitored.

他们发送的每条消息都会受到监控。

They can’t assemble.

他们无法聚集。

It’s over.

结束了。

So you see Telegram as a place that people from all walks of life, from every nation can have a place to speak their mind, have a voice in.

所以你认为 Telegram 是一个让来自各个国家、各行各业的人们可以表达自己的想法、发表意见的地方。

53:39 In the geopolitical context, you’re mentioning that government when they become autocratic naturally is the way of the world.

在地缘政治背景下，你提到政府自然变得专制就是世界的方式。

Human nature and the nature of governments, they become more censorious.

由于人性和政府的本质，他们变得更加挑剔。

They begin to censor and always justifying it in their minds perhaps assuming that they’re doing good.

他们开始审查，并总是在心里为其辩护，也许认为自己做得很好。

Perhaps some of them assume they’re doing good, but interestingly, it always results in the state accumulating more power at the expense of the individual.

也许他们中的一些人认为自己做得很好，但有趣的是，这总是导致国家以牺牲个人利益为代价积累更多权力。

54:08 Then where does it stop?

那么它停在哪里呢？

We humans are not very good at finding the right balance, and in this case, the right balance between chaos and order, between freedom and structure.

我们人类不太善于找到正确的平衡，在这种情况下，在混乱与秩序、自由与结构之间找到正确的平衡。

We tend to go to extremes.

我们倾向于走极端。

I think you still consider yourself a libertarian.

我认为你仍然认为自己是一个自由主义者。

54:44 There is something about government that always over time naturally builds a larger and larger bureaucracy.

随着时间的推移，政府总是会自然地建立一个越来越大的官僚机构。

In that machine of bureaucracy, it accumulates more and more power.

在官僚机器中，它积累了越来越多的权力。

It’s not always that one individual member of that bureaucracy is the one that corrupts the initial principles on which the government was founded, but just something over time, you forget.

并不总是官僚机构的某个成员破坏了政府成立的最初原则，但随着时间的推移，你会忘记。

You begin to censor.

你开始审查。

You begin to limit the freedoms of the individual, the ability of the individuals to speak, to have a voice, to vote.

你开始限制个人的自由、个人发言、发表意见和投票的能力。

It just gradually happens that way.

它只是逐渐这样发生的。

And the government is not some abstract notion.

政府并不是什么抽象概念。

55:29 The government consists of people and these people have goals.

政府由人民组成，这些人都有目标。

They would naturally be inclined to increase the level of influence, to have more subordinates, to have more resources.

他们自然会倾向于提高影响力，拥有更多的下属，拥有更多的资源。

That’s how you end up in an endless loop of ever-increasing taxes, ever-increasing regulation, which ultimately suffocates free market, free enterprise, and free speech.

这就是为什么你最终会陷入税收不断增加、监管不断加强的无限循环，最终窒息自由市场、自由企业和言论自由。

So, you do want to have very, very strict limitations on the extent the government can increase its powers at the expense of citizens.

因此，你确实希望对政府以牺牲公民为代价来增加权力的程度进行非常非常严格的限制。

Ironically, you don’t have those limitations.

讽刺的是，你没有这些限制。

56:22 You’re supposed in all countries, which are considered to be free.

你应该在所有被认为是免费的国家/地区。

It’s supposed to be the constitution that protects everybody, but interestingly, it doesn’t work always this way.

它应该是保护每个人的宪法，但有趣的是，它并不总是这样运作。

They are able to find very tricky phrasings in order to carve out exceptions and then the exception becomes the rule.

他们能够找到非常棘手的措辞来排除例外，然后例外就成为规则。

On this topic, I’d love to talk to you about the recent saga of you being arrested in the August of last year in France.

就这个话题，我想和你谈谈最近发生的你去年8月在法国被捕的故事。

56:49 I think I should say that it’s one of the worst overreaches of power I’ve seen as applied to a tech leader in recent history, in all history.

我想我应该说，这是我所见过的近代历史上、历史上对科技领导者最严重的权力越权行为之一。

So, it’s tragic, but I think speaks to the thing that we’ve been talking about.

所以，这是悲剧，但我认为这说明了我们一直在谈论的事情。

So, maybe can you tell the full saga what happened?

那么，也许你能讲述整个传奇到底发生了什么吗？

You arrived in France.

你到达法国了。

I arrived in France last year in August just for a short two-day trip and then I see a dozen of armed policemen greeting me and asked me to follow them.

我去年8月份到法国，只是进行了两天的短暂旅行，然后我就看到十几名武装警察向我打招呼，让我跟他们走。

57:24 They read me a list of something like 15 serious crimes that I’m accused of, which was mind-boggling.

他们给我读了一份清单，上面列出了我被指控的 15 项严重罪行，这令人难以置信。

At first, I thought there must be some mistake.

起初，我以为一定是出了什么差错。

Then I realized they’re being serious and they’re accusing me of all possible crimes that the users of Telegram have allegedly committed or some users and they think I should be responsible for this, which again, like you said, it’s something that never happened in the history of this planet.

然后我意识到他们是认真的，他们指控我涉嫌 Telegram 用户或某些用户犯下的所有可能的罪行，他们认为我应该为此负责，这又是，就像你说的，这是这个星球历史上从未发生过的事情。

No country, not even an authoritarian one did that to any tech leader, at least at this scale.

没有一个国家，甚至是一个独裁国家，对任何科技领导者做出过这样的事，至少在这种规模上是这样。

58:37 There are good reasons for that because you are sacrificing a big part of your economic growth by sending these messages to the business and tech community.

这是有充分理由的，因为向商业和技术社区发送这些信息会牺牲很大一部分经济增长。

So, they put me in a police car and I found myself in police custody.

所以，他们把我塞进警车，然后我就被警察拘留了。

Small room, no windows, just a narrow bed made of concrete.

房间很小，没有窗户，只有一张狭窄的混凝土床。

I spent almost four days there.

我在那里度过了将近四天。

In the process, I had to answer some questions of the policemen.

在这个过程中，我还得回答警察的一些问题。

They were interested in how Telegram operates.

他们对 Telegram 的运作方式很感兴趣。

Most of it is public anyway, and I was struck by very limited understanding or should I say even lack of understanding on behalf of the people who initiated this investigation against me by how technology works, how encryption works, how social media work.

无论如何，大部分内容都是公开的，我对非常有限的理解感到震惊，或者我应该说，甚至代表那些对我发起这项调查的人缺乏对技术如何运作、加密如何运作、社交媒体如何运作的理解。

I mean, there’s something darkly poetic about a tech founder of a platform where a billion people are communicating with each other and you’re on concrete, no pillow for days, no windows.

我的意思是，对于一个平台的科技创始人来说，有一种黑暗的诗意，在这个平台上，有十亿人互相交流，而你却躺在混凝土上，好几天没有枕头，没有窗户。

59:57 I’m a huge fan of Franz Kafka and he’s written about the absurdity of these kinds of situations, hence the Kafkaesque stories.

我是弗朗茨·卡夫卡的超级粉丝，他写过这类情况的荒谬之处，因此就有了卡夫卡式的故事。

There’s a story literally about the situation that he wrote, perhaps predicted, called The Trial, where a person is arrested for no reason that anybody can explain and is stuck in the judicial system for a long time, that nobody fascinatingly in that story, neither the person arrested nor any individual member of the system itself fully understand what is happening.

他写了一个故事，也许是预言了，叫做《审判》，一个人因为任何人都无法解释的原因而被捕，并被困在司法系统中很长一段时间，但故事中没有人，无论是被捕的人，还是系统本身的任何个人，都完全理解正在发生的事情。

1:00:45 Nobody can truly answer the questions and eventually the person, spoiler alert, is mentally broken by the whole system, which is what bureaucracy can do in its most absurd form.

没有人能够真正回答这些问题，最终这个人（剧透警告）在精神上被整个系统击垮，这就是官僚机构可以以最荒谬的形式所做的事情。

It breaks the spirit, the human spirit laden in all of us.

它摧毁了我们所有人的精神、人类精神。

That’s the negative side of bureaucracy.

这就是官僚主义的消极一面。

I agree with you on the absurdity of this thing because if this was a good faith attempt to fix an issue, there were so many ways to reach out to Telegram, to reach out to me personally, voice their concerns, and solve any alleged problem in a way that is conventional and diplomatic the way every other country on this planet solves these problems, including with Telegram.

我同意你对这件事的荒谬性的看法，因为如果这是解决问题的善意尝试，那么有很多方法可以联系 Telegram，联系我个人，表达他们的担忧，并以传统和外交的方式解决任何所谓的问题，就像这个星球上其他国家解决这些问题的方式一样，包括使用 Telegram。

1:01:05 We did it dozens of times.

我们这样做了几十次。

Yeah, you have a nice page showing this is like details that most people don’t really think about, but Telegram is at the forefront of moderating CSAM and terrorist groups.

是的，你有一个很好的页面，显示了大多数人并没有真正考虑到的细节，但 Telegram 处于调节 CSAM 和恐怖组织的最前沿。

1:01:43 There’s a nice page, telegram.org/moderation that shows just the incredible amount of groups and channels that are engaged in terrorist activity and CSAM activity that are actively blocked, found and blocked by Telegram.

有一个很好的页面，telegram.org/moderation，其中显示了数量惊人的参与恐怖活动和 CSAM 活动的团体和频道，这些团体和频道被 Telegram 积极阻止、发现和阻止。

A lot of this work, like you said, because of the automation is done with machine learning, just the scale is insane.

很多工作，就像你说的，因为自动化是通过机器学习完成的，只是规模太疯狂了。

1:02:22 This is stuff that most noobs like me who are just chatting it up on Telegram don’t think about, but there’s just an immense number of people essentially doing things that violate the law on there and you have to find them immediately and catch it.

大多数像我这样在 Telegram 上闲聊的菜鸟都不会想到这一点，但实际上有大量的人在那里做着违法的事情，你必须立即找到他们并抓住他们。

I guess all platforms have to deal with it.

我想所有平台都必须处理它。

Telegram was doing a great job of dealing with that content.

Telegram 在处理这些内容方面做得很好。

What you’re saying is the French government had no idea.

你的意思是法国政府不知道。

Do they even know what machine learning is?

他们知道什么是机器学习吗？

It’s a concept that is challenging to explain to them, but I think they will learn much more about it by the end of this investigation.

这是一个很难向他们解释的概念，但我认为在调查结束时他们会了解更多。

1:02:53 That’s my hope.

这就是我的希望。

In any case, you’re right.

无论如何，你是对的。

If you look at Telegram, we’ve been fighting harmful content that is publicly distributed on our platform since 10 years ago, actually since the time we launched public channels on Telegram.

如果你看看 Telegram，就会发现，自 10 年前，实际上是从我们在 Telegram 上推出公共频道开始，我们就一直在打击在我们平台上公开传播的有害内容。

Since something like eight years ago, we had daily transparency reports on how many channels related to child abuse or terrorist propaganda we’ve taken down daily.

从大约八年前开始，我们每天都会发布透明度报告，说明我们每天关闭了多少与虐待儿童或恐怖主义宣传相关的频道。

1:03:41 Every day we’ve taken maybe we’d take down hundreds of them, and if you include all kinds of content that we remove, all the accounts, groups, channels, posts, that would amount to millions of pieces of content every week, hundreds of thousands every day.

我们每天都会删除数百条内容，如果算上我们删除的各种内容，包括所有帐户、群组、频道、帖子，那么每周将有数百万条内容，每天有数十万条内容。

Then somebody would read the newspaper, get enraged because they would read something about child porn.

然后有人会读报纸，因为读到有关儿童色情的内容而感到愤怒。

This is a subject that is very emotionally charged and start doing something not based on data and logical thinking and laws, but based on emotions driven from inaccurate input.

这是一个非常情绪化的主题，并开始做一些不基于数据、逻辑思维和规律的事情，而是基于由不准确的输入驱动的情绪。

Yeah, I think we should make pretty clear that there’s no world, no reason that the French government should have arrested you, but here we are.

是的，我认为我们应该明确表示，法国政府没有理由逮捕你，但我们就在这里。

1:04:36 That’s the situation you’re in.

这就是你所处的情况。

So, to be clear, you have to show up in front of a judge.

因此，要明确的是，您必须出现在法官面前。

All of this is beautifully absurd.

所有这一切都是美丽的荒谬。

It would be hilarious if it wasn’t extremely serious.

如果不是非常严重的话，那就太搞笑了。

You have to show up in front of a judge every certain amount of time.

您必须每隔一定时间出现在法官面前。

What is that experience like?

那是怎样的体验？

In France, they have this role of investigative judge.

在法国，他们担任调查法官的角色。

1:05:01 I don’t think you have it in many other places in the world.

我认为世界上许多其他地方都没有这种情况。

It means I’m not on trial, I’m being investigated.

这意味着我没有受到审判，而是正在接受调查。

In France, it’s not just the police or prosecutor asking me questions.

在法国，不仅仅是警察或检察官问我问题。

It’s a judge, which in my experience is more like still a prosecutor, but it’s called a judge.

这是一名法官，根据我的经验，这更像是一名检察官，但它被称为法官。

That makes it harder to appeal.

这使得上诉变得更加困难。

So, if you are limited in say, countries where you can travel, then to appeal that restriction will take you a lot of time.

因此，如果您在可以旅行的国家/地区受到限制，那么上诉该限制将花费您很多时间。

The investigation itself should have never been started.

调查本身根本不应该开始。

It’s an absurd and harmful way of solving an issue such as complicated as regulating social media.

这是解决社交媒体监管等复杂问题的一种荒谬且有害的方式。

It is just the wrong tool.

这只是错误的工具。

So, we objected and appealed the investigation itself.

因此，我们对调查本身表示反对并提出上诉。

We did last year, I believe.

我相信我们去年就做到了。

1:06:14 We’re still not even given a hearing date for the appeal because the process is painfully slow, not just for me but for everybody, which made me realize the system may be broken in many levels.

我们甚至还没有给出上诉听证会的日期，因为这个过程非常缓慢，不仅对我来说，而且对每个人来说，这让我意识到这个系统可能在很多层面上都被破坏了。

You have other entrepreneurs affected by the French justice system telling me horror stories about their experiences where businesses got paralyzed by very unnecessary actions of investigative judges that ended up being unjustified and biased.

其他受法国司法系统影响的企业家向我讲述了他们的恐怖故事，他们的经历是，企业因调查法官采取的非常不必要的行动而陷入瘫痪，而这些行动最终是不公正和有偏见的。

In the end, you can perhaps solve it when you reach a higher court and you’ll get justice, but you’ll lose a lot of time and energy in the process.

最后，当你到达更高一级的法院时，你也许可以解决这个问题并得到正义，但你会在这个过程中损失大量的时间和精力。

So, this is the only thing that is, I hope, different and will be different in this case compared to the story you told from Kafka.

所以，我希望，与你从卡夫卡那里讲述的故事相比，这是唯一不同的事情，并且在这种情况下将会有所不同。

I mean, but it does as Kafka describes break a lot of people with time.

我的意思是，但正如卡夫卡所描述的那样，随着时间的推移，它确实让很多人崩溃了。

1:07:31 So, we should say that you’re for a long time not allowed to travel out of France.

所以，我们应该说，你很长一段时间都不允许离开法国。

Now you can travel to Dubai.

现在您可以前往迪拜。

We’re now in Dubai, got to meet many of the people that work at Telegram.

我们现在在迪拜，见到了许多在 Telegram 工作的人。

Telegram is headquartered in Dubai, but you’re not allowed to travel anywhere else.

Telegram 总部位于迪拜，但您不得前往其他任何地方。

When do you think you’re coming to Texas to hang out with me over there?

你什么时候来得克萨斯州和我一起出去玩？

That’s a hard question to answer because it doesn’t depend on just my actions.

这是一个很难回答的问题，因为它不仅仅取决于我的行为。

1:08:01 I can just say this, I’m patient.

我只能说，我有耐心。

I will not let this limitation on my freedom dictate my actions.

我不会让这种对我自由的限制左右我的行为。

I will, if anything, double down on defending freedoms because I experienced firsthand what the absence of freedom feels like at least during these four days in police custody when you are just stuck, unable to communicate with people that are important to you, when you don’t even know what’s going on in the world in relation to you personally.

如果有的话，我会加倍努力捍卫自由，因为至少在被警察拘留的这四天里，我亲身经历了缺乏自由的感觉，当时你被困住了，无法与对你来说重要的人沟通，当你甚至不知道世界上发生了与你个人相关的事情时。

So, I have no crystal ball that would tell me the future.

所以，我没有水晶球可以告诉我未来。

I can’t say that I am pessimistic.

我不能说我悲观。

I think we’ve been able to gradually remove most of the restrictions initially imposed on my freedom last August.

我认为我们已经能够逐步取消去年八月最初对我的自由施加的大部分限制。

If the French government or the French intelligence agency want to have a back door or want to access private user messages, what would you say to them?

如果法国政府或法国情报机构想要开后门或者想要访问私人用户消息，你会对他们说什么？

1:09:23 Is there anything they can do to get access to the private user messages?

他们可以采取什么措施来访问私人用户消息吗？

Nothing.

没有什么。

1:09:42 My response would be very clear, but it won’t be very polite.

我的回答会很明确，但不会很礼貌。

So, I’m not sure.

所以，我不确定。

It’s good to say here.

在这里说一下就好了。

It’s good to say because you are wearing a tie.

这么说很好，因为你打着领带。

Yeah, this is a serious adult gentleman-like program.

是的，这是一档严肃的成人绅士节目。

1:09:57 Yeah, but that is a concern.

是的，但这是一个问题。

1:10:00 …

……

a gentleman-like program, yeah.

一个绅士般的节目，是的。

But that is a concern that people have is when you have so much pressure from governments that, over time, they’ll wear you down and you’ll give in.

但人们担心的是，当你面临来自政府的巨大压力时，随着时间的推移，他们会让你疲惫不堪，你就会屈服。

And then, of course, other places use that as propaganda to try to attack you, you get attacked by basically every nation.

然后，当然，其他地方用它作为宣传来试图攻击你，你基本上会受到每个国家的攻击。

So, it’s a difficult medium in which to operate.

因此，这是一种很难操作的媒介。

It’s difficult to be you fighting for freedom, fighting to preserve people’s privacy.

为自由而战、为保护人们的隐私而战是很困难的。

But is there something you could say to reassure people that you’re not going to sacrifice any of the principles that you’ve just expressed if the French government just keeps wearing you down?

但是，你能说些什么来让人们放心，如果法国政府一直让你精疲力竭，你不会牺牲你刚刚表达的任何原则吗？

I think the French government is losing this battle, this battle is wrong.

我认为法国政府正在输掉这场战斗，这场战斗是错误的。

1:10:42 The more pressure I get, the more resilient and defiant I become.

我承受的压力越大，我就会变得越有韧性和反抗精神。

And I think I have proven that in the last several months when there were attempts to use my situation being stuck here in France by approaching me and asking me to do things in other countries, blocking certain channels, changing the way Telegram works.

我想我已经证明了，在过去的几个月里，有人试图利用我被困在法国的情况来接近我，要求我在其他国家做一些事情，封锁某些频道，改变 Telegram 的工作方式。

And not only I refused, I told the world about it and I’m going to keep telling the world about every instance, any government, in this case in particular, the French government, tries to force me to do anything.

我不仅拒绝了，我还告诉了世界这件事，我将继续告诉世界每一个例子，任何政府，特别是法国政府，试图强迫我做任何事情。

And I would rather lose everything I have than yield to this pressure because, if you submit to this pressure and agree with something that is fundamentally wrong and violates rights of other people as well, you become broken inside, you become a shell of your former self on a deep biological and spiritual level.

我宁愿失去我所拥有的一切，也不愿屈服于这种压力，因为如果你屈服于这种压力，同意一些根本错误的事情，也侵犯了他人的权利，你的内心就会破碎，在深刻的生物和精神层面上，你会变成以前的自我的外壳。

1:12:10 So, I wouldn’t do that.

所以，我不会那样做。

There are probably other people in the world that would consider that, I don’t care.

世界上可能还有其他人会考虑这一点，我不在乎。

Telegram disappears to something people don’t understand, including in this intelligence services or governments, I don’t care, I’ll be fine.

Telegram 消失在人们不理解的地方，包括在情报部门或政府中，我不在乎，我会没事的。

If they put me into prison for 20 years which, let’s be clear, it’s not something that I think is realistic but let’s just think about it as a hypothetical situation.

如果他们把我关进监狱 20 年，让我们明确一点，我认为这不是现实的事情，但让我们把它当作一个假设的情况来考虑。

I would rather starve myself to death and die there, reboot the whole game than do something stupid.

我宁愿把自己饿死死在那里，重新启动整个游戏，也不愿做一些愚蠢的事情。

Let me ask you about an example of the thing you’re talking about.

让我问你一个你正在谈论的事情的例子。

1:12:59 Tell the saga of Telegram in the Romanian election.

讲述 Telegram 在罗马尼亚选举中的传奇故事。

So, amidst all this, you are still fighting to preserve the freedom of speech.

所以，尽管如此，你们仍然在为维护言论自由而奋斗。

What happened and what were some of the decisions you had to make?

发生了什么以及您必须做出哪些决定？

So, when I got stuck in France unable to leave the country for a few months, I was offered to meet the head of state foreign intelligence services through a person I know quite well, he’s actually a well-known tech entrepreneur in France and he’s well-connected and he said, “This guy wants to meet you.” I said, “Okay, fine, let’s do that but I’m not promising anything.” I took the meeting and, in this meeting, I was asked to restrict what I see as restriction of freedom of speech in Romania.

因此，当我被困在法国几个月无法离开该国时，一个我很熟悉的人邀请我与外国情报部门的国家元首会面，他实际上是法国一位著名的科技企业家，人脉广泛，他说：“这个人想见你。”我说：“好吧，好吧，我们就这么做吧，但我不承诺任何事情。”我参加了这次会议，在这次会议上，我被要求限制我所认为的罗马尼亚言论自由的限制。

1:13:16 I don’t know if you followed the whole saga with the Romanian elections, they had a presidential elections last year, the results got canceled.

我不知道你是否关注了罗马尼亚选举的整个故事，他们去年举行了总统选举，结果被取消了。

Now, Romania, at that point when I had this meeting, was preparing for a new presidential elections, the conservative candidate was not somebody who the French government was supportive of so they asked me whether I would be shutting down or ready to shut down channels on Telegram.

现在，罗马尼亚，当我参加这次会议时，正在准备新的总统选举，保守派候选人不是法国政府支持的人，所以他们问我是否会关闭或准备关闭 Telegram 频道。

Let’s support the conservative candidate or protest against the pro-European candidates so they called the guy they liked.

让我们支持保守派候选人或抗议亲欧洲候选人，这样他们就给他们喜欢的人打电话了。

1:14:49 I said, “Look, if there is no violation of the rules of Telegram which are quite clear, you can’t call to violence.

我说：“听着，如果没有违反 Telegram 明确的规则，你就不能诉诸暴力。

But if it’s a peaceful demonstration, if it’s a peaceful debate, we can’t do this, it would be political censorship.

但如果是和平示威，如果是和平辩论，我们就不能这样做，那就是政治审查。

We protected freedom of speech in many countries in the world, put it in Asia and Eastern Europe and Middle East, we’re not going to start engaging in censorship in Europe no matter who is asking us.” I was very clear to the guy who was the head of French intelligence, I said, “If you think that, because I’m stuck here, you can tell me what to do, you are very wrong.

我们在世界上许多国家保护言论自由，包括亚洲、东欧和中东，无论谁要求我们，我们都不会开始在欧洲进行审查。”我对法国情报部门负责人说得很清楚，我说：“如果你认为，因为我被困在这里，你就可以告诉我该怎么做，那你就大错特错了。

I would rather do the opposite every time,” and in a way that’s what I did.

我宁愿每次都做相反的事情，”在某种程度上，这就是我所做的。

I had a small debate with him about the morality of this whole thing and then, at a certain point, just disclose the content of this entire conversation because I never signed an NDA.

我和他就整件事的道德性进行了一场小辩论，然后在某个时候，我透露了整个谈话的内容，因为我从未签署过保密协议。

I don’t ever sign NDAs with any people like that, I want to be able to tell the world what’s going on.

我从来没有和这样的人签署过保密协议，我希望能够告诉世界发生了什么。

1:16:12 And that’s quite shocking to me that you would have people in the French government trying to get advantage of this situation.

让我感到非常震惊的是，法国政府的人试图利用这种情况。

Of course, if they had nothing to do with the start of this investigation itself and use it to reach their political or geopolitical goals, I consider it an attempt to humiliate myself personally and millions of Telegram users collectively.

当然，如果他们与这项调查的开始无关，并利用它来实现他们的政治或地缘政治目标，我认为这是企图羞辱我个人和数百万 Telegram 用户。

And it’s quite strange that the same agency asked us to do certain things in Moldova as well.

很奇怪的是，同一个机构也要求我们在摩尔多瓦做某些事情。

So, even before that, I think it was October last year or September, I was arrested in Paris in late August and then again approached through an intermediary and asked, “Would you mind taking down some channels in Moldova because there is an election going on and we’re afraid there’re going to be some interference with these elections.

所以，甚至在那之前，我想是去年10月或9月，我于8月下旬在巴黎被捕，然后再次通过中间人联系我并询问：“您介意关闭摩尔多瓦的一些频道吗？因为正在进行选举，我们担心这些选举会受到一些干扰。

Could you please connect with representatives of the government of Moldova and take care of it?” We said, “We’re happy to take a look at it and see if there is content there that is in violation of our rules.”

您能否联系摩尔多瓦政府代表并处理此事？”我们说：“我们很乐意查看它，看看是否有违反我们规则的内容。”

1:17:50 And they sent us a list of channels and bots, some of them were …

他们向我们发送了一份频道和机器人列表，其中一些是……

So, it was a very short list and some of these channels and bots were in violation indeed of our rules and we took them down, only a few of them, the rest were okay.

所以，这是一个非常短的列表，其中一些频道和机器人确实违反了我们的规则，我们将它们删除，只有其中一些，其余的都还好。

Then they said thank you and sent us another list of dozens of channels, many, many channels.

然后他们说了谢谢，并向我们发送了另一个包含数十个频道的列表，很多很多频道。

We looked at these channels, we realized that there is no solid foundation to justify banning them and we refused to do that.

我们研究了这些渠道，意识到没有坚实的基础来证明禁止它们的合理性，因此我们拒绝这样做。

But interestingly enough, the French intelligence services that were asking us to do this in Moldova, let me know through the contact that, after Telegram banned the few channels that were in violation of our rules in Moldova, they talked to my judge, the investigative judge in this investigation that has been started against me, and told the judge could things about me which I have found very confusing and, in a way, shocking because these two matters have nothing in common.

但有趣的是，要求我们在摩尔多瓦这样做的法国情报部门通过联系人告诉我，在 Telegram 禁止了一些违反我们在摩尔多瓦规则的频道后，他们与我的法官（针对我展开的调查中的调查法官）进行了交谈，并告诉法官可能会发生一些关于我的事情，我觉得这些事情非常令人困惑，并且在某种程度上令人震惊，因为这两件事没有任何共同点。

1:19:27 Why would anyone talk to an investigative judge that is trying to find out whether Telegram did a good enough job in removing illegal content in France, what does Moldova have to do with it?

为什么有人会与一名调查法官交谈，调查法官试图查明 Telegram 在法国删除非法内容方面是否做得足够好，摩尔多瓦与此有何关系？

I got very suspicious at that moment.

那一刻我非常怀疑。

Remember, it happened after we blocked a few channels that violated our rules but before we refused to block a long list of other channels that were completely fine which is people expressing political views which I may not agree with but it’s their right to express them.

请记住，这件事发生在我们封锁了一些违反我们规则的频道之后，但在我们拒绝封锁一长串其他完全正常的频道之前，这些频道是人们表达我可能不同意的政治观点，但这是他们表达这些观点的权利。

Not extreme views, not views that call to violence.

不是极端观点，不是煽动暴力的观点。

That was extremely alarming, that was a moment when I told myself that there may be more going on here that I initially thought.

那是非常令人震惊的，那一刻我告诉自己，这里可能发生的事情比我最初想象的更多。

Initially I thought, yeah, some people are confused about how technology works and, after this case in Moldova, I got much more suspicious.

最初我想，是的，有些人对技术的运作方式感到困惑，在摩尔多瓦发生这起案件之后，我更加怀疑了。

So, by the time the head of intelligence services met me to ask about Romania to help them silencing conservative voices in Romania, I was already wary of what can be going on next.

因此，当情报部门负责人来找我询问有关罗马尼亚的情况以帮助他们压制罗马尼亚保守派的声音时，我已经对接下来会发生的事情感到警惕。

Yeah.

是的。

1:21:18 So, clearly, this was a systematic attempt to pressure you to censor political voices that the French government doesn’t agree with.

因此，很明显，这是一次系统性的尝试，旨在向你施压，要求你审查法国政府不同意的政治声音。

And we should say that you have fought for freedom of speech for left-wing groups and right-wing groups, it really doesn’t matter.

而且应该说，你为左翼团体和右翼团体争取了言论自由，这真的没关系。

So, it’s not you don’t have a political affiliation, political ideology that you fight for, you’re creating a platform that, as long as they don’t call for violence, allows people from all walks of life, from all ideologies to speak their mind, that’s the whole point.

所以，并不是你没有政治立场、你为之奋斗的政治意识形态，而是你正在创建一个平台，只要他们不呼吁暴力，就可以让各行各业、各种意识形态的人们表达自己的想法，这就是重点。

And it happens to be conservative voices in the Romania election that the French government wanted to censor because, currently, the French government leans left.

而法国政府想要审查的恰恰是罗马尼亚选举中的保守派声音，因为目前法国政府是左倾的。

But if you flip everything around and the government would be right wing, you’d be fighting against censorship of left-wing voices and you have in the past many times.

但如果你把一切颠倒过来，政府就会变成右翼，那么你就会反对对左翼声音的审查，而你在过去已经多次这样做了。

Exactly.

确切地。

1:22:13 Ironically, we received a request from the French police to take down a channel of far left protesters on Telegram in France.

具有讽刺意味的是，我们收到了法国警方的请求，要求关闭法国 Telegram 上的极左抗议者频道。

We refused to do that.

我们拒绝这样做。

We looked at the channel, peaceful protesters.

我们看着频道，和平的抗议者。

It doesn’t matter for us whether we are defending the freedom of speech of people leaning right or leaning left.

对于我们来说，我们是在捍卫右翼还是左翼人士的言论自由并不重要。

During COVID, we were protecting activists that were organizing the Black Lives Matter events and the other side, the protesters against lockdowns.

在新冠疫情期间，我们保护组织“黑人生命也是命”活动的活动人士，以及另一方，保护反对封锁的抗议者。

We protect everybody as long as they are not crossing the lines and not starting to call to violence or incite damage to public property.

我们保护每个人，只要他们不越界、不煽动暴力或煽动破坏公共财产。

It’s a fundamental right to assemble.

这是一项基本的集会权利。

It’s interesting that people who haven’t had this experience of living in countries that don’t have freedoms don’t always realize how dangerous it is to gradually compromise your values, your principles, your freedoms, your rights because they don’t understand what’s at stake.

有趣的是，那些没有在没有自由的国家生活过的人并不总是意识到逐渐妥协你的价值观、你的原则、你的自由、你的权利是多么危险，因为他们不明白其中的利害关系。

Yeah, these things become a slippery slope.

是的，这些事情变成了滑坡。

1:23:56 So, you’ve, for many, many years, including currently, have spoken very highly of France, you love French history, French culture.

所以，你多年来，包括现在，都对法国给予了很高的评价，你热爱法国的历史、法国的文化。

I think this situation, this historic wrong that’s been done is, put simply, is just a gigantic PR mistake for France.

我认为这种情况，这种历史性的错误，简单来说，对法国来说是一个巨大的公关错误。

There’s no entrepreneur that sees, that aspires to be the next Pavel Durov to create the next Telegram, sees this and wants to operate in France after seeing this.

没有哪个企业家看到了这一点，渴望成为下一个 Pavel Durov，创建下一个 Telegram，看到了这一点，并希望在看到这一点后在法国开展业务。

There is no justification for this arrest, there’s a misapplication of the law, all kinds of pressures, all kinds of behavior that seems politically motivated, all that kind of stuff, all the excessive regulation and the bureaucracy, a nightmare for entrepreneurs that dream to create something impactful and positive for the world.

这次逮捕没有任何理由，存在对法律的误用，各种压力，各种似乎出于政治动机的行为，所有这些东西，所有过度的监管和官僚主义，对于那些梦想为世界创造有影响力和积极影响的企业家来说是一场噩梦。

1:24:50 So, what do you think needs to be fixed about the French government, the French system and then, zooming out, because you see similar kinds of things in Europe, that could enable entrepreneurs, that could reverse the trend that we seem to be seeing in Europe that is becoming less and less friendly to entrepreneurs?

那么，您认为法国政府、法国体系需要解决什么问题，然后再缩小范围，因为您在欧洲看到了类似的事情，这可以为企业家提供支持，可以扭转我们在欧洲看到的对企业家越来越不友好的趋势？

What can be fixed?

有什么可以修复的？

What should be fixed?

应该修复什么？

I think the European society must decide where they want their ever-increasing public sector to stop increasing, what they think should be the right size of government.

我认为欧洲社会必须决定他们希望不断增长的公共部门在哪里停止增长，以及他们认为合适的政府规模。

1:25:20 Because today, if you take France for example which is a beautiful country with a lot of talented people, but public expenses are 58% of the country’s GDP, it’s maybe as much more than in the latest stage of the Soviet Union.

因为今天，如果以法国为例，它是一个美丽的国家，人才济济，但公共开支却占到该国GDP的58%，可能比苏联末期还要高。

So, you have this disbalance where you have many more people representing the state as opposed to people trying to bring the country’s economy forward by creating great products and great companies.

因此，存在这种不平衡，有更多的人代表国家，而不是试图通过创造伟大的产品和伟大的公司来推动国家经济发展的人。

1:26:26 The start-up field and my field, social media field has been affected by it immensely.

创业领域和我的领域、社交媒体领域都受到了巨大的影响。

There was one great start-up in this realm in France in the last 10 years, it was this location-based social network, it was eventually sold to Snapchat.

过去10年，法国在这个领域出现了一家伟大的初创公司，那就是这个基于位置的社交网络，它最终被卖给了Snapchat。

But before it was sold, the founder asked me whether he should sell, I told him, “Never sell.

但在卖之前，创始人问我是否应该卖，我告诉他，“永远不要卖。

You have a great thing going.

你的事情进展顺利。

You have lots of users, you have organic traction in many countries and the first of this kind of success story in France.” But then he sold anyway in a couple of weeks.

你拥有大量用户，在许多国家都有自然吸引力，并且在法国是第一个此类成功故事。”但几周后他还是卖掉了。

1:27:12 And later I met him, he’s trying to do a new thing now, I met him and I asked him, I was trying to understand what went wrong and one of the things he told me about is that, while he was trying to run his company, competing with Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, having all this pressure from investors, trying to hire the best people and persuade them to go to Paris, and he did a great job by the way, but while he was trying to do that, he got also attacked by some silly investigation, again, involving the data protection issues which lasted forever and was gradually sucking blood of his team and his company, constant interrogations, disclosure requests.

后来我遇到了他，他现在正在尝试做一件新事情，我遇到了他，我问他，我试图了解出了什么问题，他告诉我的一件事是，当他试图经营他的公司，与Facebook、Instagram、Snapchat竞争时，承受着来自投资者的所有压力，试图雇用最优秀的人才并说服他们去巴黎，顺便说一句，他做得很好，但当他试图这样做时，他也再次受到了一些愚蠢调查的攻击，涉及数据保护问题一直持续不断，并逐渐吸干他的团队和公司的血液，不断的审讯和披露要求。

1:28:14 And this is a young company, it significantly increases the level of stress and, at some point, I think the pressure was too much, he decided to, again, just sell it.

这是一家年轻的公司，它显着增加了压力水平，在某些时候，我认为压力太大了，他决定再次出售它。

Eventually it turned out that there was no issue, the investigation ended as far as I understand with no charges but, such investigations, they have a price, they have a cost.

最终结果证明没有问题，据我了解，调查结束时没有任何费用，但是，这样的调查是有代价的，有成本的。

1:28:45 And unless the society realizes the cost of projects, of companies, of start-ups that are never created or sold to the United States at the very early stage or other countries resulting in decreased economic growth, things won’t change.

除非社会认识到项目、公司、初创企业在早期阶段从未创建或出售给美国或其他国家导致经济增长放缓的成本，否则情况不会改变。

I think we just talked to a guy a few days ago who left France and started a business here in Dubai and one of the reasons he had to leave France is that the government started an investigation on his company and they frozen his bank accounts and this investigation that involved taxes lasted for many, many years, I believe he said eight years.

我想我们几天前刚刚和一个离开法国并在迪拜创业的人交谈过，他必须离开法国的原因之一是政府对他的公司开始调查，他们冻结了他的银行账户，这项涉及税收的调查持续了很多很多年，我相信他说的是八年。

1:29:36 And at the end of this eight years, the government reached to the conclusion that there was nothing wrong, he’s good, it’s okay.

在这八年结束时，政府得出的结论是没有任何问题，他很好，没关系。

In the meantime, his corporate bank accounts were frozen, his business died.

与此同时，他的公司银行账户被冻结，他的生意也破产了。

The only reason why he was able to retain sanity is because he moved to Dubai and started a new company which is incredibly successful and now he’s enriching this city which we’re in right now with his great ideas and creativity.

他能够保持理智的唯一原因是因为他搬到了迪拜并创办了一家非常成功的新公司，现在他正在用他伟大的想法和创造力丰富我们现在所处的这座城市。

And by the way, having interacted with him, there’s a fire in his eyes, the human spirit that fuels entrepreneurship.

顺便说一句，在与他的互动中，他的眼中闪烁着火焰，这是激发创业精神的人文精神。

1:30:17 Whatever that is, he doesn’t have to do it, he’s made a lot of money.

不管那是什么，他不必这样做，他已经赚了很多钱了。

He probably doesn’t have to do anything but he still wants to create and that fires what fuels great nations.

他可能不需要做任何事情，但他仍然想创造并点燃伟大国家的动力。

Build, build, build, build new stuff, expand, all of that and regulation suffocates that.

建造，建造，建造，建造新的东西，扩张，所有这一切和监管都窒息了。

You have to cherish this people.

你要珍惜这个人。

Yeah.

是的。

But I guess the French public or some part of the French public was misled and I don’t know when, perhaps since the time of the French Revolution, to believe that entrepreneurs are somehow their enemies.

但我猜法国公众或部分法国公众被误导了，我不知道从什么时候开始，也许从法国大革命开始，他们就相信企业家在某种程度上是他们的敌人。

1:30:42 They’re the evil rich people that are the cause of all problems as if only you could make the rich share their ill-gotten wealth with the rest of the population then every problem will be magically solved.

他们是邪恶的富人，是所有问题的根源，好像只有你能让富人与其他人分享他们的不义之财，那么所有问题都会神奇地解决。

In reality though, a lot of these people that are starting such companies with fire in their eyes are sacrificing their lives, their livelihood.

但事实上，许多怀着热情创办这样的公司的人正在牺牲自己的生命和生计。

1:31:27 They’re working 20 hours a day, they’re experiencing immense stress in order to fulfill the vision and bring value and good to the society around them.

他们每天工作 20 个小时，为了实现愿景并为周围的社会带来价值和利益，他们承受着巨大的压力。

They create jobs, they create great services, they create great goods, they make your country grow, they make your people proud, you have to cherish them.

他们创造就业机会，他们创造优质服务，他们创造优质商品，他们让你的国家成长，他们让你的人民感到自豪，你必须珍惜他们。

But what does the system do to them?

但系统对他们做了什么？

It squeezes them out because perhaps there was somebody in the tax authority that decided to advance their career and perhaps was too ambitious and not too smart so, as a result, a company was destroyed.

它把他们挤出去，因为也许税务机关里有人决定提升他们的职业生涯，也许太雄心勃勃，不太聪明，所以，结果，一家公司被摧毁了。

1:32:17 And now the same entrepreneur, by the way, who we talked to is invited to come back to France.

顺便说一句，现在我们采访的同一位企业家被邀请回到法国。

He’s been offered really good terms, he said they’re going to open this new venue on Champs-Élysées, we’re going to give you the best location, we’re going to fund part of it, tax breaks and he said, “Never.

他得到了非常好的条件，他说他们将在香榭丽舍大街开设这个新场馆，我们将为您提供最好的位置，我们将提供部分资金，税收减免，他说，“永远不会。

Just forget about this, it’s impossible.

忘记这一点吧，这是不可能的。

I’m not coming back to France.” He’s traumatized by the experience and he’s French, he was born there, he has a French passport.

我不会再回法国了。”他因这次经历而受到创伤，他是法国人，他出生在那里，他拥有法国护照。

So, unless things like this change, France and the rest of Europe will keep struggling with economic growth, with budget deficits, with unemployment and all the other relevant social and economic metrics.

因此，除非发生这样的变化，否则法国和欧洲其他国家将继续在经济增长、预算赤字、失业和所有其他相关社会和经济指标中挣扎。

Yeah, it’s heartbreaking.

是的，这令人心碎。

1:33:06 Many of these nations, I appreciate the historic and the culture of value and I hope Europe and France flourish but this is not the components that are required for flourishing.

我欣赏其中许多国家的历史和文化价值，我希望欧洲和法国蓬勃发展，但这并不是繁荣所需的组成部分。

Quick pause, I need a bathroom break.

快暂停一下，我需要去趟厕所。

1:33:24 All right, we had some tea, we’re back.

好了，喝了茶，我们回来了。

Let’s go back a bunch of years to the beginning.

让我们回到很多年前。

You mentioned you went to school with super intensive education so I thought it’d be really interesting to look at some of the powerful aspects of that education from the languages to the math.

你提到你上的学校接受的是超强化教育，所以我认为看看这种教育从语言到数学的一些强大方面真的很有趣。

Can you actually describe some of the rigorous aspects of it and what you gained from it?

您能具体描述一下它的一些严格的方面以及您从中获得的收获吗？

At the age of 11, I got the opportunity to enter an experimental school in St. Petersburg where I lived and you had to pass a rigorous test to get accepted.

11岁时，我有机会进入我居住的圣彼得堡的一所实验学校，必须通过严格的考试才能被录取。

1:33:48 The idea behind the school was that, if you try to squeeze as much information as possible into a brain of a teenager making a focus on maths and foreign languages, then there will be some changes in the brain of the student that will allow the student to understand most other disciplines.

学校背后的想法是，如果你试图将尽可能多的信息塞进一个专注于数学和外语的青少年的大脑中，那么学生的大脑就会发生一些变化，使学生能够理解大多数其他学科。

But we had a class, as a result, that didn’t have any single focus, it was very widespread across a lot of disciplines.

但我们的课程没有任何单一的焦点，它广泛分布在许多学科中。

You would have four foreign languages at least including Latin, English, French, German, in addition, you can get ancient Greek.

你至少会四门外语，包括拉丁语、英语、法语、德语，此外，你还可以学古希腊语。

You would have classes like biochemistry or psychoanalysis, evolutionary psychology.

你会上生物化学、精神分析、进化心理学等课程。

The difference of this class as opposed to other classes in the same school which was part of the St. Petersburg State University called academic gymnasium was that, unlike other classes which were specialized in some single subject like physics or maths or history, this one tried to get the best from all of these specialized classes and bring into one curriculum.

该班级与同一学校（圣彼得堡国立大学学术体育馆的一部分）的其他班级的不同之处在于，与其他专门研究物理、数学或历史等单一学科的班级不同，该班级试图从所有这些专业班级中获得最好的成果，并将其纳入一门课程中。

Since it was an experimental class, it wasn’t possible to become a straight A student, to be excellent in all the subject, it’s always considered crazy to even try.

因为是实验班，不可能成为全A学生，不可能在所有科目上都取得优异成绩，即使尝试也总是被认为是疯狂的。

So, it’s assumed nobody’s able to handle it, you’re just pushing the limits of the human mind.

所以，假设没有人能够处理它，你只是在挑战人类思维的极限。

1:35:48 Four languages in parallel, math, evolutionary psychology, just overwhelming the mind and see what happens.

四种语言并行，数学，进化心理学，只是压倒性的思维，看看会发生什么。

Yes, see what happens.

是的，看看会发生什么。

1:35:59 This was an experiment and it was in the middle of the ’90s, remember, when Russia, particularly its educational system, wasn’t regulated as much as it is today.

请记住，这是一个实验，当时是在 90 年代中期，当时俄罗斯，尤其是其教育体系，并没有像今天这样受到监管。

It was in the middle between the two stages of the Russian history, the Soviet’s history and the modern Russian history of the 21st century.

它处于俄罗斯历史两个阶段——苏联历史和21世纪俄罗斯现代史的中间。

In any case, I learned a lot from that experience.

无论如何，我从那次经历中学到了很多东西。

First of all, why I got into this school is because I kept being kicked out from other schools.

首先，我进入这所学校的原因是因为我一直被其他学校开除。

Challenging authority?

挑战权威？

I was good at all subjects but not behavior.

我所有科目都擅长，但行为不擅长。

1:36:39 We had this behavior grade in the Soviet Union in early ’90s, perhaps they even have it today, I’m not sure.

我们在 90 年代初的苏联就有这种行为等级，也许他们今天也有，我不确定。

I was very bad at behavior, always challenging the teachers, always pointing out their mistakes.

我的行为很糟糕，总是挑战老师，总是指出他们的错误。

By the way, that’s not such a bad thing, right?

顺便说一句，这并不是一件坏事，对吧？

1:36:59 If you were looking back, there’s some value to that for young people to, maybe respectfully, but challenge the authority, the wisdom of old, right?

如果你回顾过去，年轻人也许会尊重地挑战权威和老年人的智慧，这是有一定价值的，对吗？

I think I was very lucky to be able to do that and to be able to get away with it in the end because, normally, if you keep challenging authorities, you just get kicked out of all schools and then you end up nowhere.

我认为我很幸运能够做到这一点，并且最终能够逃脱惩罚，因为通常情况下，如果你不断挑战当局，你就会被所有学校开除，然后你就一事无成。

1:37:14 So, I eventually got into a school where challenging teachers was not fully okay but it was something that you could do and then you would start a debate with the teacher and normally they would allow you to express your point of view and then some objective truth may come out of it as a result.

所以，我最终进入了一所学校，在那里挑战老师并不完全可以，但这是你可以做的事情，然后你会开始与老师辩论，通常他们会允许你表达你的观点，然后可能会得出一些客观的事实。

1:37:58 But at that point, I was pretty bored with my life, every teenager gets to a point when they have this sort of existential crisis.

但那时，我对自己的生活感到非常无聊，每个青少年都会遇到这种存在危机。

What’s the point of life?

生命的意义是什么？

What am I even doing here?

我还在这里做什么？

At some point, I decided, since I have to go to school anyway, I might as well try to do something impossible and become the best student and get an A or what we called five in the Russian system on every single subject and that kept me busy for a while.

在某个时刻，我决定，既然我无论如何都必须上学，我不妨尝试做一些不可能的事情，成为最好的学生，并在每门科目上获得 A 或我们所说的俄罗斯系统中的 5，这让我忙碌了一段时间。

1:38:40 It was incredibly difficult because you didn’t have enough time.

这非常困难，因为你没有足够的时间。

Even if you just studied all the time, not doing anything else, you didn’t have any time left to prepare all the homework, tasks and get ready for all the tests.

即使你一直在学习，不做任何其他事情，你也没有时间准备所有的作业、任务并为所有的考试做好准备。

So, I ended up using the breaks between classes but I get to the result I wanted to get to.

所以，我最终利用了课间休息时间，但我得到了我想要的结果。

I got the excellent mark in every subject and that kept me happy for a while.

我在每门科目上都取得了优异的成绩，这让我高兴了一段时间。

What did you understand about an effective education system from studying foreign language at the same time doing such a diversity?

在学习外语的同时进行如此多样化的教育体系，您对有效的教育体系有何理解？

1:39:19 If you were to design an education system from scratch for young people, especially in the 21st century, what would that look like?

如果你要从头开始为年轻人设计一个教育体系，特别是在21世纪，那会是什么样子？

You posted about the value of mathematics as a foundation for everything.

您发布了关于数学作为一切基础的价值的文章。

Yeah.

是的。

1:39:39 I still think math is essential.

我仍然认为数学是必不可少的。

It’s something that shapes your brain, it teaches you to rely on your logical thinking to split big problems into smaller parts, put them in the right sequence, solve them patiently, trying again if it doesn’t work.

它塑造你的大脑，它教你依靠逻辑思维将大问题分解成小问题，按正确的顺序排列，耐心解决，如果不行再尝试。

This is exactly the same skill you’ll need in programming and project management and start it when you start your own company.

这与您在编程和项目管理中所需的技能完全相同，并且在您创办自己的公司时开始使用它。

And it’s one of the few subjects to school which encourages you to develop your own thinking as opposed to rely on what other people have to say and just repeating their opinions.

它是学校为数不多的鼓励你发展自己的思维而不是依赖别人所说并只是重复他们的观点的科目之一。

That is extremely valuable.

这是非常有价值的。

And of course, once you’re good at math, you can apply it in physics, in engineering, in coding.

当然，一旦你擅长数学，你就可以将其应用到物理、工程和编码中。

And it’s not surprising that most of the most successful tech founders and CEOs are very good at matters in coding because, ultimately, it’s the same mental skill that you rely on.

大多数最成功的科技创始人和首席执行官都非常擅长编码，这并不奇怪，因为归根结底，这也是你所依赖的心理技能。

1:41:05 But back then in the school, I realized something else as well, it’s that competition is really important, competition is key.

但当时在学校，我也意识到了一些事情，那就是竞争真的很重要，竞争是关键。

This is what motivates a lot of teenagers when there is school and, if you remove competition out of the education system, you end up forcing kids to start competing elsewhere, for example, in video games.

这就是许多青少年上学时的动力，如果你把竞争从教育系统中剔除，你最终会迫使孩子们开始在其他地方竞争，例如电子游戏。

It’s a trend you see now in many countries, including in the West, when well-meaning authorities or parents say we don’t want our kids to be too stressed, we don’t want them to feel anxiety so let’s just get rid of all the public grading system, all these rankings of who won, who lost, we don’t want any of that.

这是你现在在许多国家看到的一种趋势，包括在西方，当善意的当局或父母说我们不希望我们的孩子压力太大，我们不希望他们感到焦虑，所以让我们摆脱所有的公共评分系统，所有这些关于谁赢了，谁输了的排名，我们不想要这些。

1:42:06 And part of it is justified but, as a result, some kids lose interest.

其中一部分是合理的，但结果是，一些孩子失去了兴趣。

Yes, you eliminate the losers but you end up eliminating the winners as well.

是的，你淘汰了失败者，但最终也淘汰了获胜者。

And then, if you are overprotective of the kids in that age, they grow up, graduate schools, the universities and they’re still not prepared for real life because real life is constant competition for jobs, for promotions, for customers and it’s more brutal.

然后，如果你对那个年龄段的孩子过度保护，他们长大后，读研究生、上大学，但他们仍然没有为现实生活做好准备，因为现实生活是对工作、晋升、客户的持续竞争，而且更加残酷。

1:42:47 What you have as a result is high suicide rates, high unemployment, all the things and negative trends you see now in many countries which thought eliminating competition from their education system was a good idea.

结果就是高自杀率、高失业率，以及你现在在许多国家看到的所有事情和负面趋势，这些国家认为消除教育系统中的竞争是一个好主意。

They still persist, they still think competition is a bad thing, they try to eliminate competition from their economy as well to an extent saying we are going to make sure the losers don’t lose and the winners don’t get too much but, as a result, they make their entire systems less competitive, their entire economies.

他们仍然坚持，他们仍然认为竞争是一件坏事，他们试图在一定程度上消除经济中的竞争，并表示我们将确保输家不会输，赢家不会得到太多，但结果是，他们降低了整个系统、整个经济的竞争力。

1:43:34 Some of them in Europe are now struggling to keep up with China, with South Korea, with Singapore, with Japan and other places where the education system was based on ruthless competition.

欧洲的一些国家现在正在努力跟上中国、韩国、新加坡、日本和其他教育体系建立在残酷竞争基础上的国家的步伐。

So, this is a hard choice any civilization has to make.

所以，这是任何文明都必须做出的艰难选择。

We support competition understanding that, eventually, it leads to progress in science and technology and abundance for society at large or we remove competition thinking that somehow we can shield the future generations from the stress that competition inevitably causes.

我们支持对竞争的理解，认为它最终会带来科学技术的进步和整个社会的富裕，或者我们消除竞争思维，认为我们可以以某种方式保护子孙后代免受竞争不可避免造成的压力。

Yeah, it’s grounded in a good instinct of compassion, you don’t want people who suck at a thing to feel pain but it seems like struggle is a part of life, either you do it earlier or you do it later.

是的，它基于良好的同情心本能，你不希望那些在某件事上很糟糕的人感到痛苦，但斗争似乎是生活的一部分，要么你早做，要么晚做。

1:44:22 And it’s true, that’s such a good point that competition does seem to be a really powerful driver of skill development, like you mentioned, pursuing mastery.

确实，这是一个很好的观点，竞争似乎确实是技能发展的强大驱动力，就像你提到的，追求精通。

There’s something in human nature that, especially for young people, if you can compete at a thing, you’re going to be really driven to get good at that thing.

人性中有一种东西，特别是对于年轻人来说，如果你能在某件事上竞争，你就会真正被驱使去擅长那件事。

If you can direct that in the education system as China does, as many nations like you mentioned do, then you’re going to develop a lot of brilliant people.

如果你能像中国那样，像你提到的许多国家那样，在教育系统中引导这一点，那么你就会培养出很多才华横溢的人才。

1:45:00 …

……

do, then you’re going to develop a lot of brilliant people, resilient people, people that are ready to create epic shit in the world.

这样做，那么你就会培养出很多才华横溢的人，有韧性的人，准备好在世界上创造史诗般的东西的人。

I think there is a lot of evidence proving that we are biologically wired to compete and establish our understanding of what our qualities are and talents are in relation to other people around us, and this is one of the ways society self-regulates.

我认为有很多证据证明，我们生来就喜欢竞争，并建立我们对自己的品质和才能与周围其他人的关系的理解，这是社会自我调节的方式之一。

Speaking of competition, your brother, Nikolai, he’s a mathematician, programmer, expert in cryptography.

说到竞争，你的兄弟尼古拉，他是一位数学家、程序员、密码学专家。

1:45:30 He has won the IMO International Mathematics Olympiad, he got gold medal three times, ICPC programming, two times, has two PhDs in mathematics, and you have worked together for many years creating incredible technologies that we’ve been talking about.

他赢得了 IMO 国际数学奥林匹克竞赛，三次获得金牌，两次获得 ICPC 编程金牌，拥有两个数学博士学位，你们一起工作了很多年，创造了我们一直在谈论的令人难以置信的技术。

So what have you learned about just life from your brother?

那么你从你哥哥那里学到了什么关于生活的知识呢？

Well, first of all, I must say I learned pretty much everything from my brother, everything I know, because when we were used to be kids, we slept in the same bedroom, like beds a few feet away from each other, and I kept bugging him with questions.

嗯，首先，我必须说我从我哥哥那里学到了几乎所有的东西，我所知道的一切，因为当我们还是孩子的时候，我们睡在同一个卧室里，就像床彼此相距几英尺，我一直用问题骚扰他。

1:46:02 I would ask him about dinosaurs and galaxies and black holes and Neanderthals, everything I could think of, and he was my Wikipedia back in the time when we didn’t have internet access.

我会向他询问有关恐龙、星系、黑洞和尼安德特人的问题，我能想到的一切，在我们没有互联网接入的时代，他就是我的维基百科。

He’s a unique prodigy kid, probably one of a billion.

他是一个独特的神童，可能是十亿人中的一个。

1:46:45 He started reading at the age of three, I think, and he pretty fast got so advanced in maths, that by the age of six, he could already read really sophisticated books on astronomy.

我想，他从三岁开始读书，而且他的数学很快就进步了，到六岁时，他已经可以阅读非常复杂的天文学书籍了。

Sometimes when he did it in public places, like buses or metro, my mom was criticized by people who were witnessing it.

有时，当他在公共场所（例如公共汽车或地铁）这样做时，我妈妈会受到目睹者的批评。

They would tell her, “Why are you mocking your own kid with this serious book?

他们会告诉她，“你为什么用这本严肃的书来嘲笑你自己的孩子？

It’s obvious that the kid can’t understand everything there.

显然这孩子无法理解那里的一切。

It’s too complicated even we don’t understand anything there.

太复杂了，连我们都不懂。

There’s some formulas,” and he was already sucking in this knowledge.

有一些公式。”他已经在吸收这些知识了。

He just has this thirst for information.

他只是对信息有这种渴望。

1:47:39 So he was the source of all kind of great facts, useful things, inspiring things.

所以他是各种伟大事实、有用事物、鼓舞人心事物的源泉。

He taught me pretty much everything I know.

他几乎教了我所知道的一切。

At the same time, he’s incredibly modest and kind, and this is something I think a lot of people that think they’re smart but not generally intelligent lack.

同时，他非常谦虚和善良，我认为这是很多自认为聪明但并不普遍聪明的人所缺乏的。

More often than not, people who are truly intelligent, they’re also kind and compassionate.

通常，真正聪明的人也是善良和富有同情心的。

And he is that?

而他就是那个人？

Definitely.

确实。

You actually have been staying out of the public eye for the most part.

实际上，您大部分时间都远离公众视线。

1:48:21 You’ve done very few interviews, you’re pretty low-key, but your brother is in another level.

你接受采访的次数很少，很低调，但你哥哥却是另外一个层次。

He’s been staying out of the public eye.

他一直远离公众视线。

What’s behind that?

这背后是什么？

Part of it is his natural modesty.

部分原因在于他天生的谦虚。

1:48:34 He doesn’t need to do it.

他不需要这样做。

He doesn’t feel this urge to show off, brag about stuff.

他不觉得有炫耀、吹嘘东西的冲动。

I tried to avoid it as well, but at a certain point I realized that me being too private, too secretive becomes a liability because it creates this void, this emptiness that people and organizations that don’t like Telegram very much are willing to fill with inaccurate information and they’re willing to spread the narratives about Telegram, which can result in strange situations, some of which we discussed earlier.

我也试图避免它，但在某个时刻，我意识到我太私密、太神秘会成为一种负担，因为它会造成这种空虚，这种空虚让那些不太喜欢 Telegram 的人和组织愿意用不准确的信息来填补，他们愿意传播有关 Telegram 的叙述，这可能会导致奇怪的情况，其中一些我们之前讨论过。

For example, this French investigation.

例如，法国的这项调查。

Yeah, I’ve gotten to know you more and more and there’s a deep integrity to you that I think is good to show to the world.

是的，我对你的了解越来越多，你身上有一种深深的正直，我认为向世界展示这一点是件好事。

1:49:32 There’s a lot of attack vectors on user privacy and I think the most important, the last wall of protection is the actual people that are running the company, so it’s important to some degree for you to be out there to showing your true self.

关于用户隐私的攻击媒介有很多，我认为最重要的、最后一道保护墙是运营公司的实际人员，因此在某种程度上，你要在那里展示真实的自我，这一点很重要。

1:49:55 So we should say that also you didn’t mention, but you were a programmer from an early age.

所以我们应该说，你也没有提到，但你从小就是一名程序员。

You started coding at 10.

你从 10 点开始编码。

First things you built are a video game at 11, and then eventually 10 years later, 21, you programmed the initial versions of VK single-handedly.

你在 11 岁时制作的第一件作品是一款视频游戏，最终在 10 年后，即 21 岁时，你单枪匹马编写了 VK 的初始版本。

Can you talk to me about your programming journey that led to the creation of VK?

您能跟我谈谈您创建 VK 的编程历程吗？

What was the VK stack?

VK 堆栈是什么？

Is it PHP mostly?

主要是PHP吗？

How did you figure out how to program websites, all of that?

您是如何弄清楚如何对网站进行编程的？

Yeah, I wasn’t as interested in probably websites at first.

是的，一开始我对网站可能不太感兴趣。

1:50:27 I didn’t even have access to the internet when I was 10 years old, but I liked video games.

我10岁时甚至还没有上网，但我喜欢电子游戏。

I didn’t have enough of them and the scarcity forced me to start building them, more computer games, just to play myself.

我没有足够的东西，稀缺性迫使我开始制作它们，更多的电脑游戏，只是为了自己玩。

1:50:49 It’s actually an interesting thing that we sometimes don’t realize it, but scarcity leads to creativity, and one of the reasons you have so many people who love to code coming from the Soviet Union or other places which didn’t have much access to modern technology, and more importantly modern entertainment, is that perhaps we were not so much distracted by all this abundance of different entertainment options, which is not to say it’s bad to have those options.

这实际上是一件有趣的事情，我们有时没有意识到，但稀缺性会带来创造力，而有这么多来自苏联或其他没有太多接触现代技术、更重要的是现代娱乐的地方的人喜欢编码的原因之一是，也许我们并没有被这么多不同的娱乐选择分心，这并不是说拥有这些选择是不好的。

It’s just a fact that we sometimes don’t appreciate.

这只是我们有时不欣赏的事实。

1:51:34 So I started to build computer games.

所以我开始制作电脑游戏。

My brother would sometimes guide me.

我哥哥有时会指导我。

For example, I would create a turn-based strategy.

例如，我会创建一个回合制策略。

Of course, two-dimensional.

当然是二维的。

Back then three-dimensional was too much for me.

那时三维对我来说太难了。

But it wasn’t as slick in terms of the scrolling FPS, frames per second, parameter, and I asked my brother how to optimize it.

但在滚动FPS、每秒帧数、参数方面就没有那么流畅了，我问哥哥如何优化。

He would guide me, and this kind of learning and training really shaped my coding skills when I was younger.

他会指导我，这种学习和培训确实塑造了我年轻时的编码技能。

1:52:21 Then I started to create video games for my classmates when we played, for example, tic-tac-toe on an infinite field in my class during the breaks.

然后我开始为我的同学制作视频游戏，例如课间休息时在班级的无限场地上玩井字游戏。

And not tic-tac-toe the three in a row, this was about five in a row and in an infinite field.

这不是井字游戏中的三连胜，而是大约五连胜，而且是在一个无限的区域中。

This is a much more interesting game and it gets quite complicated if you keep playing it.

这是一个更有趣的游戏，如果你继续玩的话，它会变得非常复杂。

My classmates used to love it and some of my classmates were really smart, champions of math olympiads, sons and daughters of professors at the university, and I decided, “No, I want to win every single time.

我的同学曾经很喜欢它，而且我的一些同学非常聪明，数学奥林匹克竞赛的冠军，大学教授的儿子和女儿，我决定，“不，我想每次都赢。

I don’t want to lose even a single time.

我连一次都不想失去。

So how do I win?

那么我该如何获胜呢？

I need to practice more, but how do I practice more?

我需要多练习，但是怎样才能多练习呢？

I need an opponent stronger than myself.”

我需要一个比自己更强的对手。”

1:53:08 So I coded this game so that I would play against the computer and the computer would calculate, I think, four moves in advance to choose the optimal strategy.

所以我编写了这个游戏，以便我可以与计算机对战，并且计算机会提前计算四步棋以选择最佳策略。

That wasn’t enough.

这还不够。

Four moves in advance, I would still win over it.

提前四步，我还是会赢的。

If I tried to calculate five or six, it was too slow, so asked my brother to help me out here.

如果我试图计算五或六，那就太慢了，所以请我的兄弟帮我解决这个问题。

So he made this algorithm.

于是他就做出了这个算法。

Eventually, I trained myself to win every single time, even with the computer back then, we didn’t have modern CPUs, and I could still retain some self-confidence.

最终，我训练自己每次都能获胜，即使当时的电脑没有现代的CPU，我仍然可以保留一些自信。

1:53:54 I would go back to school during breaks, play with my classmates, and soon people started to lose interest.

我会在课间休息时回到学校，和同学们一起玩，很快人们就开始失去兴趣。

None of my classmates wanted to play this game anymore.

我的同学都不想再玩这个游戏了。

I killed the game because there’s…

我杀掉了这个游戏，因为有……

1:54:09 So after that, when I got into the St. Petersburg State University, it was quite boring just to study because it was too easy.

所以后来，当我进入圣彼得堡国立大学时，光是学习就觉得很无聊，因为它太容易了。

So I thought, “What can I do there?” I created a website for the students of my faculty first.

所以我想：“我能在那里做什么？”我首先为我学院的学生创建了一个网站。

I organized the creation of digital answers to all exams and digitalized version of all lectures, which was something very unique back then.

我组织了所有考试的数字答案和所有讲座的数字化版本，这在当时是非常独特的。

Remember, it was 25 years ago.

请记住，那是 25 年前的事了。

I would put together a website where I would publish all this materials, and pretty soon it became super popular.

我会建立一个网站来发布所有这些材料，很快它就变得非常受欢迎。

I opened a discussion forum there.

我在那里开了一个论坛。

In a few years, I expanded to the university with all of its other departments, and then to other universities.

几年后，我扩展到了大学及其所有其他部门，然后扩展到其他大学。

We ended up having tens of thousands of users just as a student’s portal.

作为一个学生门户网站，我们最终拥有了数万名用户。

We had all kinds of social features there, friends lists, photo albums, profiles, blogs.

我们在那里有各种社交功能，朋友列表，相册，个人资料，博客。

All of it.

所有这一切。

1:55:29 It was quite successful, and after I graduated the university, one of my ex-classmates from the school reached out to me after reading about my successes in a newspaper, the main business newspaper of St. Petersburg, and he asked me, “Are you trying to build a Russian Facebook?” I said, “I’m not sure.

它非常成功，当我大学毕业后，我的一位前同学在读到我在圣彼得堡主要商业报纸报纸上的成功后找到我，他问我，“你想建立一个俄罗斯Facebook吗？”我说：“我不确定。

What’s Facebook?” So we met.

脸书是什么？”于是我们见面了。

Since he graduated an American university two years before that, he showed me Facebook.

由于他两年前从美国大学毕业，他给我看了 Facebook。

I thought, “Well, I can’t already have all of this technology, but it’s valuable to know which elements I should get rid of in order to scale this thing and have millions of users.”

我想，“好吧，我不可能已经拥有所有这些技术，但是知道我应该摆脱哪些元素才能扩展这个东西并拥有数百万用户是很有价值的。”

1:56:25 This is also something people don’t appreciate that sometimes in order to move forward and have more success, you have to get rid of things, including technology.

这也是人们不理解的一点，有时为了前进并取得更大的成功，你必须摆脱一些东西，包括技术。

Getting rid of features is super important.

摆脱功能非常重要。

Simplify, both for scaling and for making it amenable to just growing the user base where people get it immediately.

简化，既是为了扩展，也是为了使其能够扩大用户群，让人们立即获得它。

Yes.

是的。

1:56:50 Otherwise, it’s just too complicated for the new user.

否则，对于新用户来说就太复杂了。

The existing users will be happy, they’ll be praising you, they will be asking you to add more stuff to make it even more complicated, so it’s easy to lose track and get disoriented if you are only relying on the feedback of existing users.

现有用户会很高兴，他们会称赞你，他们会要求你添加更多东西，让事情变得更加复杂，所以如果你只依赖现有用户的反馈，很容易迷失方向并迷失方向。

1:57:18 So as a result, I started the website called VKontakte or VK, it means “in touch” in Russian, initially to solve my own personal problem.

因此，我创建了一个名为 VKontakte 或 VK 的网站，俄语中的意思是“联系”，最初是为了解决我自己的个人问题。

I graduated the university that same year and I wanted to be in touch or remain in touch with my ex-classmates from the university and the other fellow students.

同年我大学毕业，我想与大学的前同学和其他同学保持联系。

And of course, as a 20-year-old, I wanted to meet other people, including good-looking girls.

当然，作为一个 20 岁的人，我想认识其他人，包括漂亮的女孩。

1:57:46 So I started to build it from scratch.

所以我开始从头开始构建它。

For that one, I thought, “I’m not going to use any third-party libraries, modules because I want to make it as efficient as possible.” I was obsessing over every line of code, but then how do you start something that large?

对于这一点，我想，“我不会使用任何第三方库、模块，因为我想让它尽可能高效。”我对每一行代码都很着迷，但是如何开始编写这么大的代码呢？

I didn’t have any prior experience creating a project of that scale, which would involve everything.

我之前没有任何创建如此规模的项目的经验，因为这将涉及到一切。

Before, I would reuse some existing solutions.

以前，我会重用一些现有的解决方案。

Here, I wanted to build from scratch.

在这里，我想从头开始构建。

1:58:26 So I called my brother.

于是我给我弟弟打了电话。

He was a post-doc student in Germany at the time in the Max Planck university, and I asked him, “What should I start from?” And he told me, “Just build a module to authorize users, just to log in, not even to sign out, just to log in because you can pre-populate the database with credentials and emails and passwords.

当时他是德国马克斯·普朗克大学的博士后，我问他：“我应该从哪里开始？”他告诉我，“只需构建一个模块来授权用户，只需登录，甚至不需要注销，只需登录，因为您可以使用凭据、电子邮件和密码预先填充数据库。

It doesn’t really matter.

这并不重要。

But once you see that you can type in your password and email and you are in and it tells you, ‘Hello,’ using your name, then you will have a clear understanding where to go from there.”

但是，一旦您看到可以输入密码和电子邮件并且进入后，它会使用您的名字告诉您“您好”，那么您就会清楚地了解接下来该去哪里。”

Yeah.

是的。

1:59:22 I mean, that’s true.

我的意思是，那是真的。

That’s one of the best advice I’ve ever got in my life.

这是我一生中得到的最好的建议之一。

1:59:24 It worked perfectly, by the way.

顺便说一句，它运行得很好。

I started to build it and before I knew it, I would have there on the website photo albums, private messages, this guest book.

我开始构建它，在我意识到之前，我会在网站上添加相册、私人消息和留言簿。

We used to call it “thee wall” back on VK and I guess in the early days of Facebook.

我们曾经在 VK 上称其为“e wall”，我猜是在 Facebook 的早期。

We’d end up building something even more sophisticated than Facebook at the time with more features.

我们最终会构建出比当时的 Facebook 更复杂、功能更多的东西。

1:59:54 I had a girlfriend at the time.

那时我有一个女朋友。

I asked her, “We need to somehow come up with a database of all Russian schools and universities and the departments and subdivisions.” She did a great job trying to source all this information online or sometimes writing emails to universities saying, “Which departments do you have exactly at this point?

我问她：“我们需要以某种方式建立一个包含所有俄罗斯学校和大学以及院系和分支机构的数据库。”她做得很好，试图在网上获取所有这些信息，有时还给大学写电子邮件说：“目前你们到底有哪些部门？

We need to know,” or reaching out to the Department of Education, but in Russia and then in Ukraine, and then eventually in Belarus and in Kazakhstan and other countries where VK ended up to be the largest and most popular social network.

我们需要知道”，或者联系教育部，但在俄罗斯，然后在乌克兰，最后在白俄罗斯、哈萨克斯坦和其他国家，VK 最终成为最大、最受欢迎的社交网络。

2:00:38 So we did a few things that were quite unique at the time, and for the first almost a year, I was the single employee of the company.

所以我们做了一些当时非常独特的事情，在最初的近一年里，我是公司的唯一员工。

I was the backend engineer, the front-end engineer, the designer.

我是后端工程师、前端工程师、设计师。

I was the customer support officer.

我是客户支持官员。

I was the marketing guy as well, coming up with all the wordings and the announcements, coming up with competitions to promote VK, which worked quite well.

我也是营销人员，负责制定所有措辞和公告，并举办竞赛来推广 VK，效果非常好。

That was an incredible experience that gave me knowledge of every aspect of a social networking platform.

这是一次令人难以置信的经历，让我了解了社交网络平台的各个方面。

Also understanding of how much a single person can do.

还要了解一个人能做多少事情。

Exactly.

确切地。

2:01:32 It’s one of the reasons why I’d like to think I’m an efficient project manager and product manager inside Telegram because I will not take anything but ambitious deadlines from my team members.

这就是为什么我认为自己是 Telegram 内部高效的项目经理和产品经理的原因之一，因为除了团队成员雄心勃勃的截止日期之外，我不会接受任何其他东西。

If somebody gives me, “Oh, I need three weeks to do that,” I always reply, “Well, I built the first version of VK in just two weeks.

如果有人告诉我，“哦，我需要三个星期才能做到这一点，”我总是回答，“嗯，我只用了两周就构建了 VK 的第一个版本。

Why would you need three weeks?

为什么需要三个星期？

It seems like something you could make real in just three days.

这似乎是你可以在短短三天内实现的事情。

Three weeks?

三周？

What are you going to do the rest of the three weeks apart from this three days?”

除了这三天之外，剩下的三周你打算做什么？”

2:02:18 And the team knows me, and that’s why we are able today, Telegram, to move at a very good pace of innovation.

团队了解我，这就是为什么我们今天能够以非常好的创新速度前进。

Every month we’re pushing several meaningful features, I think out-competing everybody else in this industry in terms of what you can do within a short timeframe.

每个月我们都会推出一些有意义的功能，我认为在短时间内可以完成的工作方面，我们可以胜过这个行业的其他人。

So yes, that experience was invaluable.

所以，是的，那次经历是无价的。

2:02:52 As for the stack, I started from PHP and MySQL, Debian Linux, but very soon I realized, “I need to optimize this.” I started using Memcached.

至于堆栈，我从 PHP 和 MySQL、Debian Linux 开始，但很快我就意识到，“我需要优化它。”我开始使用 Memcached。

Apache servers were not enough anymore.

Apache 服务器已经不够用了。

We had to set up NGINX.

我们必须设置 NGINX。

And my brother was still living in Germany, so he couldn’t help me much for the first year of building VK.

而且我哥哥还住在德国，所以在构建 VK 的第一年他帮不了我太多。

Sometimes I would manage to get through to him through a call.

有时我会设法通过电话联系到他。

I would use an old-school phone to call him with wires.

我会用老式电话通过电线给他打电话。

I said, “What do I do?

我说：“我该怎么办？

How do I install this thing called NGINX?

我如何安装这个叫做 NGINX 的东西？

I’m not a Linux guy.” If he felt particularly kind that day and not too busy, he would show me the way to do it or set it up himself, but for the most part, I had to rely on just myself.

我不是 Linux 人。”如果那天他感觉特别好，又不太忙，他就会教我怎么做，或者自己设置，但大多数情况下，我只能靠自己。

2:03:53 Having him there though helped when we started to grow fast and started to scale it, because at first, you realize, “One server is not enough.

当我们开始快速增长并开始扩展时，有他在场会有所帮助，因为一开始你会意识到，“一台服务器是不够的。

I need to buy another one.

我需要再买一个。

Then another one and another one.” The database should be in a different server.

然后又一个又一个。”数据库应该位于不同的服务器中。

Then you have to split the database into tables.

然后你必须将数据库拆分为表。

Then you have to come up with a way to chart the tables using some criteria that would make sense that wouldn’t break your user experience.

然后，您必须想出一种方法，使用一些有意义的标准来绘制表格，并且不会破坏您的用户体验。

2:04:28 When we got to over a million users and beyond a dozen of servers surviving without the input from my brother in terms of taking care of the scaling aspect, it became impossible.

当我们的用户数量超过一百万，并且服务器数量超过一打时，如果没有我兄弟在处理扩展方面的投入，这一切就变得不可能了。

I remember asking him to come back, “You need to help me with this thing.

我记得让他回来，“你需要帮我解决这件事。

It’s starting to be really big.” What was worse is that since we became popular, somebody started to do DDoS attacks on us, as it always happens.

它开始变得非常大。”更糟糕的是，自从我们流行起来后，就有人开始对我们进行 DDoS 攻击，这种情况经常发生。

And then we had people that wanted to buy a share of VK, and interestingly, every time we had a negotiation day, the DDoS attacks intensified, so we had to come up with a way to fight it.

然后我们有人想购买 VK 的股份，有趣的是，每当我们有谈判日时，DDoS 攻击都会加剧，所以我们必须想出一种方法来对抗它。

I remembered having many sleepless nights trying to figure it out.

我记得我曾无数个不眠之夜试图弄清楚这一点。

So that was your introduction to all kinds of bad actors, DDoS, business.

这就是您对各种不良行为者、DDoS 和业务的介绍。

2:05:30 Then later you’d find out there’s such a thing called politics, and then later, geopolitics.

后来你会发现有一种东西叫政治，再后来就是地缘政治。

But this is the initial stages, that it’s not just about creating cool stuff, it’s having to deal with, as you now have to deal with with Telegram, is seas of bad actors trying to test the limits of the system, trying to break the system.

但这是初始阶段，它不仅仅是创造酷的东西，它还必须处理，就像你现在必须处理 Telegram 一样，大量的坏人试图测试系统的极限，试图破坏系统。

Unfortunately.

很遗憾。

2:06:02 If we didn’t have bad actors and pressure, it would be the best job ever.

如果我们没有糟糕的演员和压力，这将是有史以来最好的工作。

You just get to create.

你只需去创造。

Yeah, yeah.

是啊是啊。

2:06:12 And so the help from your brother, like you mentioned NGINX and charting the tables, some of this scaling issue is algorithmic nature.

因此，在你兄弟的帮助下，就像你提到的 NGINX 和绘制表格一样，一些扩展问题是算法性质的。

It’s almost like theoretical computer science.

这几乎就像理论计算机科学。

So it’s not just about buying more computers, it’s figuring out how to algorithmically make everything work extremely fast, so some of it’s mathematics.

因此，这不仅仅是购买更多的计算机，而是弄清楚如何通过算法使一切运行得非常快，所以其中一些是数学。

Some of it is pure engineering, but some of it is mathematics.

其中一些是纯粹的工程，但有些是数学。

Yeah.

是的。

2:06:44 So at that stage, I could do the basic stuff.

所以在那个阶段，我可以做一些基本的事情。

I could understand how I implement scalability into the code base, how I chart my tables in the database, where I include Memcached instead of direct requests to the database.

我可以理解如何在代码库中实现可扩展性，如何在数据库中绘制表格，其中包含 Memcached 而不是直接请求数据库。

That was quite easy because it was still PHP back in the day.

这很容易，因为当时仍然是 PHP。

2:07:14 When my brother got back from Germany somewhere around 2008, I asked him, “Can we make it even more efficient?

2008 年左右，当我哥哥从德国回来时，我问他：“我们能提高效率吗？

Can we make it super fast and at the same time so that we would require even fewer servers to maintain the load?” And he said, “Yes, but PHP is not enough.

我们能否让它变得超快，同时让我们需要更少的服务器来维持负载？”他说：“是的，但是 PHP 还不够。

I’ll have to rewrite big part of your data engines in C and C++.” I said, “Okay, let’s do that.”

我必须用 C 和 C++ 重写你们的大部分数据引擎。”我说：“好吧，我们就这么做吧。”

2:07:47 He invited a friend of his to help him, another absolute champion in world’s programming contest, twice in a row, and they put together the first customized data engine, which was far more efficient than just relying on MySQL and Memcached because it was, first of all, more specialized, more low-level.

他请了他的一个朋友，一个连续两次世界编程大赛的绝对冠军的朋友来帮助他，他们组装了第一个定制的数据引擎，它比仅仅依靠MySQL和Memcached效率要高得多，因为它首先更专业，更底层。

So they rewrote it in C, C++?

所以他们用 C、C++ 重写了它？

A large chunk of it.

其中很大一部分。

2:08:21 For example, the search, the ad engine, because VK had targeted ads, they built that.

例如，搜索、广告引擎，因为 VK 有针对性的广告，所以他们就构建了它。

It was very efficient what they did.

他们所做的事情非常有效。

Eventually, the private messaging part, the public messages part.

最终，私人消息部分，公共消息部分。

At some point, we realized there are very few websites online that load faster than VK.

在某些时候，我们意识到很少有在线网站的加载速度比 VK 更快。

Nice.

好的。

I remember in 2009, I went to Silicon Valley and I met Mark Zuckerberg the first time and some of the other core team members of early Facebook.

我记得2009年，我去了硅谷，第一次见到了马克·扎克伯格以及Facebook早期的其他一些核心团队成员。

2:08:49 Remember, Facebook was just four or five years old.

请记住，Facebook 才诞生四五年。

And everybody kept asking me, “How come even here in Silicon Valley, VK loads faster than Facebook?

每个人都不断问我，“为什么即使在硅谷，VK 的加载速度也比 Facebook 快？

Everything seems to appear instantly on your website.

一切似乎都会立即出现在您的网站上。

What’s the secret sauce?” That was one of the things that made them very curious

秘诀是什么？”这是让他们很好奇的事情之一

And that was always important to you, to have very low latency to make sure the thing loads because that’s one of the things Telegram is really known for.

这对您来说始终很重要，以非常低的延迟来确保事物加载，因为这是 Telegram 真正闻名的事情之一。

2:09:25 Even on crappy connections and all that kind of stuff, it just works extremely fast.

即使在糟糕的连接和所有类似的情况下，它的运行速度也非常快。

Everything is fast.

一切都很快。

As one of the core technological ideas, we prioritize speed.

作为核心技术理念之一，我们优先考虑速度。

2:09:37 We think that people can notice the difference, even if it’s just 50 million millisecond difference.

我们认为人们可以注意到差异，即使只有 5000 万毫秒的差异。

The difference is subconscious.

差异是潜意识的。

It also allows us not just to be faster and more responsive, but also more efficient when it comes to the infrastructure, the expenses.

它还使我们不仅能够更快、更敏感，而且在基础设施和费用方面也更加高效。

Because if your code executes faster, it means you need fewer computational resources to run it.

因为如果您的代码执行速度更快，则意味着您需要更少的计算资源来运行它。

2:10:16 So there is no way you can lose in making things faster, and that’s why we have always been very careful when hiring people.

因此，在加快速度方面你不会有任何损失，这就是为什么我们在招聘人员时一直非常小心。

I would only hire a person if I’m ultimately certain is the best option because if you hire somebody who is maybe a little bit distracted, unexperienced, you may end up with inefficiencies in your code base that results in tens of millions of dollars of losses.

我只会雇用一个人，如果我最终确定这是最好的选择，因为如果你雇用一个可能有点心烦意乱、缺乏经验的人，你最终可能会导致代码库效率低下，从而导致数千万美元的损失。

And think about the responsibility, like if we jump to today from the VK days, Telegram is used by over a billion people.

想想责任，就像我们从 VK 时代跳到今天，Telegram 已经被超过 10 亿人使用。

They open it dozens of times every day.

他们每天都会打开它数十次。

Imagine the app opens with a slight delay, say, half-a-second delay.

想象一下应用程序打开时有轻微的延迟，例如半秒的延迟。

Multiply by dozens of times by a billion.

乘以几十倍十亿。

It’s centuries, millennia lost for humanity without any reason other than just being sloppy.

人类损失了几个世纪、几千年，除了马虎之外没有任何原因。

That is so important to understand and so wise that it’s actually, if you’re just a little bit careless as a developer, you can introduce inefficiencies that are going to be very difficult to track down because you don’t know that it can be faster.

理解这一点非常重要，而且非常明智，事实上，如果您作为开发人员稍微粗心一点，您可能会导致效率低下，而这种情况将很难追踪，因为您不知道它可以更快。

2:11:24 The code doesn’t scream at you saying, “This could be much faster.” So you have to actually, as a craftsman, be very careful when you’re writing a code and always thinking, “Can this be done much more efficiently?” And it can be tiny things because they all propagate throughout the code, and so there’s a real cost in having a careless developer anywhere in the company because they can introduce that inefficiency and all the other developers won’t know.

代码不会对你大喊“这可能会快得多”。所以，作为一名工匠，当你编写代码时，你必须非常小心，并且总是思考，“这可以更有效地完成吗？”它可能是很小的事情，因为它们都会在整个代码中传播，因此在公司的任何地方拥有一个粗心的开发人员会带来真正的成本，因为他们可能会导致效率低下，而所有其他开发人员都不会知道。

They’ll just assume it kind of has to be that way.

他们只是假设事情一定是这样的。

2:12:11 So there’s a real responsibility for every single individual developer that’s building any component of an app like Telegram to just always ask, “Okay, can this be done more efficiently?

因此，每个开发者在构建 Telegram 这样的应用程序的任何组件时都有真正的责任，就是总是问：“好吧，这可以更有效地完成吗？

Can this be done more simply?” And that’s one of the most beautiful aspects, the art forms of programming, right?

这件事能做得更简单吗？”这是最美丽的方面之一，编程的艺术形式，对吧？

Oh, yes, because when you manage to discover a way to simplify things, make them more efficient, you feel incredibly happy and proud and accomplished.

哦，是的，因为当你设法找到一种方法来简化事情、提高效率时，你会感到无比的快乐、自豪和成就感。

2:12:47 And to your point, I can recall a few instances in my career where firing an engineer actually resulted to an increase in productivity.

就你的观点而言，我可以回忆起我职业生涯中的一些例子，解雇工程师实际上导致了生产力的提高。

Say you have two Android engineers building their app and then they just can’t make it.

假设您有两名 Android 工程师正在构建他们的应用程序，但他们就是做不到。

They’re not keeping up with the pace of the feature release schedule.

他们没有跟上功能发布时间表的步伐。

And you think, “I probably have to hire a third one,” but then you notice that one of them is really weird, falling behind the schedule, complaining some of the time, doesn’t assume responsibility.

你想，“我可能必须雇用第三个人”，但随后你发现其中一个人真的很奇怪，落后于时间表，有时会抱怨，不承担责任。

And you ask, “So what if I just fire this person?” And you fire this person.

你会问：“那我解雇这个人怎么样？”然后你解雇这个人。

In a few weeks, you realize you actually don’t need any new, never needed the third engineer.

几周后，你意识到你实际上不需要任何新的，从来不需要第三个工程师。

The problem was this guy who created more issues and more problems than he solved.

问题是这个人制造的问题比他解决的问题还要多。

2:13:49 That is so counterintuitive because in developing tech projects, we tend to think that you just throw more people into something and then things get solved miraculously by themselves just because more people means more attention from them now.

这是非常违反直觉的，因为在开发技术项目时，我们倾向于认为你只需投入更多的人来做某事，然后事情就会自己奇迹般地解决，因为更多的人现在意味着他们更多的关注。

That’s, again, extremely powerful.

这又是非常强大的。

2:14:12 Steve Jobs talked about A players and B players, and there’s something that happens when you have B players, which is like the folks you’re talking about.

史蒂夫·乔布斯谈到了 A 级员工和 B 级员工，当你有 B 级员工时，就会发生一些事情，就像你所说的那些人一样。

Introduced into a team, they can somehow slow everybody down.

引入团队后，他们可以以某种方式减慢每个人的速度。

They demotivate everybody.

他们让每个人都失去动力。

And it’s very counterintuitive that you basically, part of the work of creating a great team is removing the B players.

这是非常违反直觉的，你基本上，创建一支伟大团队的工作的一部分就是消除B球员。

It’s not just hiring more, generally speaking.

一般来说，这不仅仅是雇用更多人。

It’s finding the “A players” and removing the people that are slowing things down.

它正在寻找“一流的球员”并剔除那些拖慢进度的人。

Oh, yes, because the other thing that people don’t realize is how demotivating working with a B player is.

哦，是的，因为人们没有意识到的另一件事是，与 B 级员工一起工作是多么令人沮丧。

2:14:48 Everybody can tell if the other person, the other engineer they’re working with is really competent.

每个人都可以判断对方、与他们一起工作的另一位工程师是否真的有能力。

And it’s very visible if the person is not comfortable.

如果这个人不舒服，它是非常明显的。

They’re asking the wrong questions, they keep lagging behind.

他们问了错误的问题，他们一直落后。

And at a certain point, if you’re an A player, you get this dissatisfaction, this feeling that you are not able to realize your full potential, accomplish what you’re really meant to accomplish because of this person working next to you or pretending to work next to you.

在某个时刻，如果你是一名一流的球员，你会感到不满，感觉自己无法充分发挥自己的潜力，无法完成你真正想要完成的事情，因为这个人在你旁边工作或假装在你旁边工作。

2:15:37 And by the way, in some cases, it’s not because the person is lazy.

顺便说一句，在某些情况下，这并不是因为这个人懒惰。

In some cases it’s just the mental, the intellectual ability is not there.

在某些情况下，这只是精神上的，智力上的能力并不存在。

It’s not about experience.

这与经验无关。

Most often it’s about natural ability and persistence.

大多数情况下，它与自然能力和毅力有关。

In 90% of cases, it’s just the inability to focus on one task for an extended period of time.

在 90% 的情况下，这只是因为无法长时间专注于一项任务。

Not everybody has this ability.

不是每个人都有这个能力。

So for people who do have this ability, it’s an insult to work alongside someone who is distracted and cannot go deep in the projects that they’re responsible for.

因此，对于那些确实有这种能力的人来说，与一个心烦意乱、无法深入自己负责的项目的人一起工作是一种侮辱。

On this small tangent, what’s your hiring process?

顺便问一下，你们的招聘流程是怎样的？

2:16:27 So you’ve shown and you’ve talked about how you use competitions often, coding competitions to hire to find great engineers.

所以你已经展示并谈论了如何经常利​​用竞赛，通过编码竞赛来招聘来寻找优秀的工程师。

What’s your thinking behind that?

你的想法是什么？

Well, it’s in line with my overall philosophy.

嗯，这符合我的整体理念。

2:16:40 I think competition leads to progress.

我认为竞争带来进步。

If you want to create an ideal process for selecting the most qualified people for certain specific tasks you have in mind, what can be better than a competition?

如果您想创建一个理想的流程来选择最有资格的人员来完成您想要的某些特定任务，那么还有什么比竞争更好的呢？

A coding contest where everybody who wants to join your company as an engineer or just wants to get some prize money or validation can demonstrate their skills, and then we just select the best.

一场编码竞赛，每个想加入你的公司担任工程师或只是想获得一些奖金或验证的人都可以展示他们的技能，然后我们只选择最好的。

Or if we are not certain because there’s not enough data to hire somebody, we just repeat the contest with another task, get more data, get more winners, then repeat again.

或者，如果我们因为没有足够的数据来雇用某人而不确定，我们只需用另一项任务重复比赛，获取更多数据，获得更多获胜者，然后再次重复。

2:17:31 And at some point, you realize, “Oh, actually this guy has competed in 10 of our contests since he was 16 years old or 14 years old.

在某些时候，你会意识到，“哦，实际上这个家伙从 16 岁或 14 岁起就参加了我们的 10 场比赛。

Now he’s 20 or 21.

现在他20岁或21岁了。

He won in eight of these competitions.

他在其中八场比赛中获胜。

He seems to be really good in JavaScript on Android, Java, and also C++.

他似乎非常擅长 Android 上的 JavaScript、Java 和 C++。

Why not hire this person?” There’s some consistency there.

为什么不雇用这个人呢？”那里有一些一致性。

2:18:04 And a lot of these people, they have never worked in a big company before, which is priceless because in a big company, people tend to shift responsibility.

其中很多人以前从未在大公司工作过，这是无价的，因为在大公司，人们往往会转移责任。

They have this shared responsibility wherein nobody fully understands who can take credit for a project, who can take blame for a project.

他们承担着共同的责任，没有人完全理解谁可以为项目承担责任，谁可以为项目承担责任。

Inside Telegram, it’s pretty clear, and these competitions are the closest experience to what people will have when working at Telegram.

在 Telegram 内部，这一点非常明确，这些比赛是人们在 Telegram 工作时最接近的体验。

2:18:46 So for example, we want to implement certain very tricky animation and redesign to the profile page of the Telegram’s Android version.

例如，我们想要实现某些非常棘手的动画并重新设计 Telegram Android 版本的个人资料页面。

And the Android app, it’s an open-source app.

Android 应用程序是一个开源应用程序。

Anybody can take its code and play with it.

任何人都可以获取它的代码并使用它。

So as a result, we would not just select the best person and hire this person, we would also select the best solution to the problem because we would not suggest the contestants to solve trivial problems.

因此，我们不仅会选择最好的人并雇用这个人，我们还会选择问题的最佳解决方案，因为我们不会建议参赛者解决琐碎的问题。

It’s something that’s valuable.

这是很有价值的东西。

It saves a lot of time for us in terms of development.

它为我们节省了大量的开发时间。

2:19:24 And because I always had this large social media platforms, which I could use to promote these competitions, somehow both VK and Telegram were very popular among engineers and designers, other tech people, I had no issue to promote this contest and find the right people ever.

而且因为我一直有这个大型社交媒体平台，我可以用它来宣传这些比赛，不知何故，VK 和 Telegram 在工程师、设计师和其他技术人员中都很受欢迎，所以我毫无问题地宣传这场比赛并找到合适的人。

And what can be better than, for an employee of your company, somebody who has been a user of it?

对于贵公司的员工来说，还有什么比曾经是该公司的用户更好的呢？

This person has no prior experience of using Telegram.

此人之前没有使用 Telegram 的经验。

2:20:00 This person has no prior experience of using Telegram.

此人之前没有使用 Telegram 的经验。

Their understanding would be very limited.

他们的理解将非常有限。

Why would I even try to hire somebody from LinkedIn who worked at Google and other companies, is used to receiving salary for nothing, is used to shift responsibility and being stuck in endless meetings and have very limited understanding of what Telegram stands for?

为什么我会尝试从 LinkedIn 雇佣一个在 Google 和其他公司工作过、习惯于白领工资、习惯于推卸责任、陷入无休止的会议、对 Telegram 的含义了解非常有限的人？

It’s just crazy if you think about it.

如果你仔细想想，这真是太疯狂了。

Because of that, you’re extremely selective and slow in hiring.

正因为如此，你在招聘方面非常挑剔并且缓慢。

2:20:40 People really have to earn their spot and then as a result, I got a chance to sit in one of the team meetings where people discuss the different features that are being developed, the different ideas, some of which are at the very cutting edge and so you get to see behind the scenes how it’s possible to have such a fast rate of idea generation.

人们确实必须赢得自己的一席之地，因此，我有机会参加一次团队会议，人们在会上讨论正在开发的不同功能、不同的想法，其中一些是非常前沿的，因此你可以在幕后看到如何能够如此快速地产生想法。

You generate the idea, you implement the prototype and then eventually it becomes an actual feature in the product.

您产生想法，实现原型，然后最终它成为产品中的实际功能。

That’s why you have this kind of half hilarious, half incredible fact that for many, as compared to WhatsApp and Signal, you’ve led the way on many other features.

这就是为什么你会看到这样一个半搞笑半难以置信的事实：对于许多人来说，与 WhatsApp 和 Signal 相比，你在许多其他功能上处于领先地位。

Many of the features we take for granted now, many of which we know and love, like the auto-delete timer.

许多我们现在认为理所当然的功能，其中许多是我们所了解和喜爱的，例如自动删除计时器。

That was seven years ahead of any other messenger.

这比任何其他信使都早了七年。

Message editing, replies.

消息编辑、回复。

These are all obvious things I’ve even forgotten for some of them that they were never part.

这些都是显而易见的事情，我什至忘记了其中一些人从未参与过。

I think auto-delete timer is a really brilliant idea.

我认为自动删除计时器是一个非常好的主意。

We implemented in 2013 in the Secret Chats.

我们于 2013 年在秘密聊天中实施。

2:21:54 Funny thing about it is then when other apps started to copy it, WhatsApp seven years after and then Signal and some other of these apps, they initially even copied the exact timestamps.

有趣的是，当其他应用程序开始复制它时，七年后的 WhatsApp，然后是 Signal 和其他一些应用程序，他们最初甚至复制了确切的时间戳。

For example, if we had one, three and five seconds, they would also have one, three and five seconds.

例如，如果我们有一秒、三秒和五秒，他们也会有一秒、三秒和五秒。

They tried not to change it because they were not sure what was the magic sauce behind the feature.

他们试图不改变它，因为他们不确定该功能背后的魔力是什么。

Ironically, it happens with many of these things.

具有讽刺意味的是，许多这样的事情都发生过。

For example, when we design how you reply to a message and you have a small snippet showing that you’re replying to this message and now you’re typing your response, then there is a small snippet into the message itself that if you tap on it highlights the original message you’re replying to.

例如，当我们设计您回复消息的方式时，您有一个小片段显示您正在回复此消息，现在您正在输入您的回复，那么消息本身中有一个小片段，如果您点击它，则会突出显示您正在回复的原始消息。

Seems pretty obvious, but there are certain design decisions that we were implementing at the time and we got this vertical line on the left and all these other small things that are completely arbitrary, you can do it in a different way, but somehow the entire industry ended up copying exactly that solution.

看起来很明显，但我们当时正在实施某些设计决策，我们在左侧得到了这条垂直线以及所有其他完全任意的小东西，你可以用不同的方式来做，但不知何故整个行业最终都完全复制了该解决方案。

Now whenever you go to WhatsApp, Instagram direct, Facebook Messenger, Signal, it doesn’t matter, you would see exactly the same or pretty much similar experience because nobody really wants to take the risk and innovate.

现在，无论何时你使用 WhatsApp、Instagram direct、Facebook Messenger、Signal，没关系，你都会看到完全相同或非常相似的体验，因为没有人真正愿意冒险和创新。

If something works, why not just copy it?

如果有些东西有效，为什么不直接复制它呢？

We should say that it’s done extremely well.

应该说，做得非常好。

2:23:32 The vertical line and the highlighting, I mean all of these are tiny little strokes of genius.

垂直线和突出显示，我的意思是所有这些都是天才的小笔画。

By highlighting the text in a certain way that from a design perspective makes it very clear that this part was written before and thing under it is your reply.

通过以某种方式突出显示文本，从设计的角度来看，可以非常清楚地表明这部分是之前写过的，而其下面的内容是您的回复。

The distinction between the different formatting, the text.

不同格式、文字之间的区别。

Listen, I know how much typography is an art form.

听着，我知道排版在多大程度上是一种艺术形式。

There’s a lot of interacting, graphic artistic elements inside Telegram that all have to play together extremely well.

Telegram 中有很多互动的图形艺术元素，所有这些元素都必须非常好地协同工作。

Like you pointed out to me, this thing that just blew my mind, which is the background gradient of Telegram, shifts.

就像你向我指出的那样，这件事让我大吃一惊，即 Telegram 的背景渐变，它发生了变化。

It changes and it adjusts really nicely to the bubbles, the chat bubbles and then there’s graphic elements on top of the gradient that all interplay together.

它发生了变化，并且很好地适应了气泡、聊天气泡，然后渐变顶部的图形元素相互作用在一起。

All of that has to work really nicely without sacrificing clarity.

所有这些都必须在不牺牲清晰度的情况下很好地工作。

Everything’s just intuitive.

一切都是直观的。

That’s very difficult to create.

这是非常难以创建的。

That is art.

那就是艺术。

On top of that, super fast.

最重要的是，速度超级快。

That’s the hardest part.

这是最难的部分。

2:24:40 To make it look so that designers love it is one thing.

让它看起来让设计师喜欢它是一回事。

The real challenge is make it look the way the designers love it and make it work on the weakest device as possible.

真正的挑战是让它看起来像设计师喜欢的那样，并让它尽可能在最弱的设备上工作。

Oldest, cheapest, smartphones you can imagine.

你能想象到的最古老、最便宜的智能手机。

If you take the moving gradient on the background of every Telegram chat, this is something most people don’t notice, but they can feel it.

如果你看一下每次 Telegram 聊天背景上的移动渐变，这是大多数人不会注意到的，但他们可以感觉到。

They notice it subconsciously or something like that.

他们下意识地注意到它或类似的东西。

2:25:13 There is a pleasant feeling.

有一种愉悦的感觉。

There’s a feeling, there’s a pleasant feeling when you’re reading a chat and that’s where the design contributes to that.

当你阅读聊天记录时，会有一种感觉，一种愉快的感觉，这就是设计的贡献所在。

I think a gradient really does.

我认为渐变确实可以。

I really love that about Telegram, the gradient.

我真的很喜欢 Telegram 的渐变。

Not the technical thing you described, but the feeling of it and then the technical aspect of creating that feeling is incredible.

不是你所描述的技术性的东西，而是它的感觉，然后创造这种感觉的技术方面是令人难以置信的。

I could probably come up with all kinds of algorithms of rendering that gradient that’s going to be super inefficient and so doing that efficiently is like…

我可能会想出各种渲染渐变的算法，但效率非常低，因此高效地做到这一点就像……

Or efficient, but not too beautiful because even doing something so trivial as a gradient can result in noticeable lines in the gradient that a person can instantly say, oh no, it’s not the right thing.

或者高效，但不太漂亮，因为即使做一些像渐变这样微不足道的事情也会导致渐变中出现明显的线条，人们可以立即说，哦不，这不是正确的事情。

2:25:46 You can have to introduce certain randomness there and then you have the gradient, but it’s not enough.

你可能必须在那里引入一定的随机性，然后你就有了梯度，但这还不够。

It’s too plain.

太简单了。

You want to have certain pattern as an overlay, but it should be simple enough not to distract you from the content, but it has to be entertaining enough to create a good feeling about the whole app.

您希望有某种模式作为叠加层，但它应该足够简单，不会分散您对内容的注意力，但它必须足够有趣，才能给整个应用程序带来良好的感觉。

Another question, what kind of objects you want to include in this pattern and how this pattern would work?

另一个问题，您想在此模式中包含哪种对象以及该模式如何工作？

Will it be based on pixels or would it be vector-based and would it be vector-based so they will be infinitely scalable and high quality?

它将基于像素，还是基于矢量？是否基于矢量，以便它们具有无限可扩展性和高质量？

I think for the default pattern and the default background, which is based on four colors, it’s not a gradient based on two colors, it’s four colors and they’re constantly shifting.

我认为对于基于四种颜色的默认图案和默认背景，它不是基于两种颜色的渐变，而是四种颜色，并且它们不断变化。

I probably look through several thousand variations of that because this is such an important decision to make.

我可能会查看数千个变体，因为这是一个非常重要的决定。

It’s the default background.

这是默认背景。

Of course you can change it actually.

当然你实际上可以改变它。

You can set up your own four colors for that.

您可以为此设置自己的四种颜色。

You can change it.

你可以改变它。

No way.

决不。

2:27:09 Really?

真的吗？

Yes, you can do it and you want to rely on certain deeply hard-coded biological properties of the human mind.

是的，你可以做到，并且你想要依赖人类思维的某些深度硬编码的生物特性。

2:27:10 Which color do you want to use?

您想使用哪种颜色？

Is it going to be blue?

它会变成蓝色吗？

Is it going to be yellow?

会变黄吗？

Is it going to be green?

它会变绿吗？

Each color has a different meaning in our brain and what kind of objects you want to put there?

每种颜色在我们的大脑中都有不同的含义，您想在其中放置什么样的物体？

Something from our childhood?

我们小时候的一些事？

Something from nature or something that can create a different kind of mood?

来自大自然的东西还是可以创造不同心情的东西？

This is just one detail of the app.

这只是该应用程序的一个细节。

There are many details.

有很多细节。

When you send a message, you are done typing a message and you just then tap send and then the message gradually appears in the chat.

当您发送消息时，您已完成消息输入，然后只需点击“发送”，消息就会逐渐出现在聊天中。

How does it happen?

这是怎么发生的？

You want the input field to slowly morph into the actual message.

您希望输入字段慢慢转变为实际消息。

To the message.

给留言。

2:28:03 Yeah.

是的。

You want this to be done regardless of the contents of the message because sometimes the width would be different.

无论消息的内容如何，​​您都希望执行此操作，因为有时宽度会有所不同。

2:28:04 Sometimes it’ll be containing media or link preview or other stuff that will change the message bubble.

有时它会包含媒体或链接预览或其他会改变消息气泡的内容。

You go through countless different scenarios and make sure every one of them works great, even if this message contains 4,000 characters.

您会经历无数不同的场景，并确保每一个场景都能正常工作，即使该消息包含 4,000 个字符。

Then you look at all the platforms, iOS, Android and all the old devices, all kinds of outdated operating systems and the hardware and you cross the two because you can have this really bad old phone, but using the newest operating system version, so what do you do?

然后你查看所有平台，iOS、Android 和所有旧设备，各种过时的操作系统和硬件，你会交叉这两者，因为你可能拥有这款非常糟糕的旧手机，但使用最新的操作系统版本，那么你会做什么？

What kind of bugs you get there?

你在那里遇到了什么样的错误？

Then of course, since Telegram works on tablets as well and our iOS version works on an iPad, which I love a lot, you have to understand that everything can be really big.

当然，由于 Telegram 也可以在平板电脑上运行，而我们的 iOS 版本可以在我非常喜欢的 iPad 上运行，所以你必须明白，一切都可能非常大。

It can consume a lot of space on your screen and then it’ll trigger using more computational resources to render it.

它可能会占用屏幕上的大量空间，然后会触发使用更多计算资源来渲染它。

There are a lot of nuances to it, but as long as you obsess over every small detail, at least every detail that really counts, you can get to a user experience…

其中有很多细微差别，但只要您关注每一个小细节，至少是每一个真正重要的细节，您就可以获得用户体验……

If you’re really used to Telegram, if you’ve been a regular user for at least a few weeks, going back to any other messaging app feels like a serious downgrade.

如果你真的习惯了 Telegram，如果你已经成为普通用户至少几周了，那么回到任何其他消息应用程序感觉就像是严重降级。

Yeah, I mean there’s so many really magical moments.

是的，我的意思是有很多非常神奇的时刻。

2:29:53 For example, the way a message evaporates when you delete it, that is a really pleasant experience.

例如，当你删除一条消息时，它就会消失，这是一种非常愉快的体验。

Oh yeah.

哦，是的。

2:30:05 Boy was it hard to make, particularly on Android.

Boy 很难制作，尤其是在 Android 上。

This is this Thanos snap effect, right?

这就是灭霸的快照效果，对吧？

The message is broken into tens of thousands particles, which go away like dust in the wind.

信息被分解成数以万计的粒子，然后像风中的尘埃一样消失。

It looks great, but it was so hard to make.

看起来很棒，但制作起来却非常困难。

Probably one of my favorite GUI graphical things.

可能是我最喜欢的 GUI 图形事物之一。

2:30:28 It’s just art.

这只是艺术。

It’s pure art.

这是纯粹的艺术。

It’s incredible.

太不可思议了。

It’s good to hear that it has been really fought over and thought through.

很高兴听到它经过了真正的争论和深思熟虑。

It’s extremely well done.

做得非常好。

No, you can’t pull it off if you’re not going deep in this.

不，如果你不深入研究，你就无法成功。

2:30:45 Then you don’t want to distract people from their communication with all this additional animation.

那么您不想用所有这些额外的动画来分散人们的交流注意力。

You want them to be invisible in a way.

你希望它们在某种程度上是隐形的。

They create the feeling, but they don’t create distraction.

它们创造了感觉，但不会造成干扰。

Yes.

是的。

2:31:09 In order to do that, you have to overcome even more challenges.

为了做到这一点，你必须克服更多的挑战。

For example, you mentioned this deletion effect, message evaporates.

比如你提到的这个删除效果，消息消失了。

If you do the animation, if you show the animation first and then the message that is preceding the deleted message that is going after the just deleted message move closer to each other, then it doesn’t feel right.

如果你做动画，如果你先显示动画，然后被删除的消息前面的消息和刚刚删除的消息后面的消息彼此靠得更近，那么感觉就不对劲。

It feels too long, too imposing.

感觉太长了，太气势了。

What you want to do is you want the message disappear while the messages around it go closer to each other to fill the resulting gap.

您想要做的是希望该消息消失，同时它周围的消息彼此靠近以填补由此产生的间隙。

Then you imagine what it involves.

然后你想象一下它涉及什么。

Redrawing the entire screen.

重新绘制整个屏幕。

On top of this very complicated animation, you have to think about things like which kind of messages were there before it after.

除了这个非常复杂的动画之外，您还必须考虑诸如之前之后存在哪些类型的消息之类的事情。

It just adds to complexity.

它只会增加复杂性。

Once again on all kinds of devices, all kinds of operating systems, all kinds of tablets, phones, desktop, all of that.

再次出现在各种设备、各种操作系统、各种平板电脑、手机、台式机上，所有这些。

Once you accomplish it, it gives you this immense sense of pride because nobody is doing this.

一旦你完成了它，它会给你一种巨大的自豪感，因为没有人这样做。

2:32:21 Nobody really cares.

没有人真正关心。

In a way maybe they’re right not to care.

在某种程度上，也许他们不关心是对的。

Maybe nobody notices this, but there is something about it that feels wrong when such things are neglected because I understand that every day, tens of millions of people around the world are deleting messages.

也许没有人注意到这一点，但当这些事情被忽视时，就会感觉不对劲，因为我知道每天都有世界各地数以千万计的人在删除消息。

What kind of experience they get?

他们获得了什么样的体验？

Is this an experience that maybe even subconsciously inspires them and makes their hearts sing even a little bit?

这种经历是否会在潜意识中激励他们，让他们的心歌唱？

Fills them with joy?

让他们充满喜悦？

Lightens up their mood, even a little bit by 0.001%?

让他们的心情变得轻松一点，哪怕是0.001%？

Is it something that is just basic and I think if we can bring some value in people’s lives, even through this subtle details, we have to definitely invest our time in it.

这是一些基本的东西吗？我认为如果我们能为人们的生活带来一些价值，即使是通过这些微妙的细节，我们也必须在上面投入时间。

Some joy.

一些喜悦。

2:33:32 Not just sort of value like productivity, but joy.

不仅仅是生产力等价值，还有快乐。

I think Steve Jobs, Jony Ive talked about this, they would put so much love and effort in the design of everything, including things that weren’t visible in the initial pc, personal computers because they believe that you somehow through osmosis, the users will be able to feel the love that the designers put into the thing and you’re absolutely right.

我想史蒂夫·乔布斯、乔尼·艾夫都谈到过这一点，他们会在一切的设计中投入如此多的爱和精力，包括最初的个人电脑、个人电脑中看不到的东西，因为他们相信，通过某种方式的渗透，用户将能够感受到设计师投入到东西中的爱，你是绝对正确的。

It’s not about deleting messages.

这与删除消息无关。

I feel a little inkling of joy when I see that evaporation animation.

当我看到那个蒸发动画时，我感到有点高兴。

It’s just nice.

这很好。

I’m happier because of it.

我因此而更快乐。

I feel that effort and I think a billion users feel that.

我感受到了这种努力，我认为十亿用户也感受到了这一点。

People like when other people care.

人们喜欢别人关心。

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

是啊，是啊，是啊。

2:34:23 That’s exactly what it is.

就是这样。

Of course there’s the more sexy things like all the emojis and the stickers, the gifts, many of those are just, they’re a little like art pieces.

当然，还有更性感的东西，比如所有的表情符号、贴纸、礼物，其中很多只是，它们有点像艺术品。

That’s again an intersection of art and technology because you look at the stickers, which Telegram launched way before most of this other apps-

这又是艺术与技术的交叉点，因为你会看到 Telegram 早于大多数其他应用程序推出的贴纸 -

Three years and eight months ahead.

未来三年零八个月。

…

……

2:34:50 ahead of WhatsApp, yes.

是的，领先于 WhatsApp。

The stickers that WhatsApp ended up launching three years and eight months after were not the first version was not really good because they just did regular GIFs or WebM videos, which were not based on vector graphics.

WhatsApp 在三年零八个月后推出的贴纸并不是第一个版本，它并不是很好，因为它们只是制作常规的 GIF 或 WebM 视频，而不是基于矢量图形。

What we did is vector animations.

我们所做的是矢量动画。

Each of these stickers is only several kilobytes, sometimes maybe maximum 20, 30 kilobytes in size, but it says 180 frames.

每个贴纸只有几千字节，有时可能最大 20、30 KB，但它说有 180 帧。

We were able to run them at 60 frames per second on all devices.

我们能够在所有设备上以每秒 60 帧的速度运行它们。

It’s also very challenging.

这也非常具有挑战性。

It was a challenging thing to do.

这是一件具有挑战性的事情。

We had so much headache trying to make it work.

为了让它发挥作用，我们非常头疼。

Nobody even tried to do anything like this before us because it’s crazily difficult.

在我们之前甚至没有人尝试过做这样的事情，因为这非常困难。

As a result, you have these fluid animations.

结果，你就得到了这些流畅的动画。

You have this really nice user experience.

您拥有非常好的用户体验。

Somebody sends you a sticker, you don’t have to wait for it to load because it’s so lightweight and it starts moving instantly.

有人向您发送了一张贴纸，您无需等待它加载，因为它非常轻巧，并且可以立即开始移动。

2:35:58 Then of course, it’s not just engineering.

当然，这不仅仅是工程。

You have to find designers that are able to create the stickers using vector graphics, which means they’re based on curves described by formulas, not just created as photographs with pixels.

你必须找到能够使用矢量图形创建贴纸的设计师，这意味着它们基于公式描述的曲线，而不仅仅是创建为带有像素的照片。

Where do you find these people?

你在哪里找到这些人？

Again, we did competitions, but was not easy to assemble a team of artists/engineers I would say, that are able to do something like this.

我们再次举办了比赛，但组建一支能够做这样的事情的艺术家/工程师团队并不容易。

This is a unique form of art and this allowed us to do a revolution in stickers and then another revolution in animated emoji that you can add into messages, custom animated emoji.

这是一种独特的艺术形式，这使我们能够对贴纸进行一场革命，然后对动画表情符号进行另一场革命，您可以将其添加到消息中，自定义动画表情符号。

I don’t think anybody did that.

我认为没有人这样做过。

I think Telegram is still the only one allowing users to do that because you can include 100 of animated emoji in a message and they will be animated and it’ll be moving and your device won’t crash.

我认为 Telegram 仍然是唯一允许用户这样做的，因为你可以在一条消息中包含 100 个动画表情符号，它们将被动画化并且会移动，并且你的设备不会崩溃。

It’s probably unnecessary and crazy, but we think somewhere in this intersection of art and engineering, true quality is created.

这可能是不必要和疯狂的，但我们认为在艺术和工程的交叉点中，真正的品质是创造出来的。

2:37:14 Then of course, more recently we expanded into what we call Telegram Gifts, which are essentially blockchain-based collectibles that you can demonstrate on your Telegram profile so that they get social relevance, but you can also use them to congratulate your friends and close ones with their birthdays and other holidays and that was received extremely well.

当然，最近我们扩展到了所谓的 Telegram 礼物，它本质上是基于区块链的收藏品，您可以在 Telegram 个人资料上展示它们，以便它们获得社交相关性，但您也可以用它们来祝贺您的朋友和亲密的人的生日和其他节日，这受到了非常好的欢迎。

Yeah, they can hold value, they can increase in value, you could trade them in that aspect, but to me still, vector graphics and it’s not just simple graphics, it’s incredibly intricate graphics.

是的，它们可以保值，可以增值，你可以在这方面进行交易，但对我来说，矢量图形，它不仅仅是简单的图形，它是极其复杂的图形。

2:37:41 The vector makes it very efficient, but it also allows you to create, maybe incentivizes the artist, enables them, incentivizes them, to create super detailed intricate elements.

矢量使其非常高效，但它也允许您进行创造，也许会激励艺术家，使他们能够、激励他们创造超详细的复杂元素。

Then the final result, you would think it wouldn’t matter, but the final result has a lot of stuff going on and it allows you to scale on arbitrary devices.

然后是最终结果，您可能会认为这并不重要，但最终结果有很多内容正在发生，并且它允许您在任意设备上进行扩展。

Now it’s like this little…

现在就这样了……

Usually GIFs from back in the day and still in meme form, are low resolution and so usually people don’t put details and intricate art into it, but here with vector graphics it’s like a million things going on.

通常，过去的 GIF 仍以模因形式存在，分辨率较低，因此人们通常不会在其中添加细节和复杂的艺术，但这里使用矢量图形，就像发生了一百万件事。

It allows you to play with different animations.

它允许您玩不同的动画。

Like you showed me this thing where you send and you hold for a while on the send button and so you can share with the person you send a message to this animation that you’ve encoded.

就像你向我展示的这个东西，你在发送时按住发送按钮一段时间，这样你就可以与你向你编码的动画发送消息的人分享。

There’s a bunch of stuff going on when they read the message.

当他们读到这条消息时，发生了很多事情。

Yes, we have a lot of features like that when we use this art to allow people to express themselves and most people don’t even know about these features.

是的，当我们使用这种艺术让人们表达自己时，我们有很多类似的功能，而大多数人甚至不知道这些功能。

I didn’t know about it.

我不知道。

2:39:10 That was cool.

太酷了。

That was cool.

太酷了。

The other application of the same technology is reactions on Telegram because we made it a goal to make sure that people feel joy when they just send you a like.

相同技术的另一个应用是 Telegram 上的反应，因为我们的目标是确保人们在给您点赞时感到高兴。

2:39:12 Something so trivial as just adding a like to a message should be an action that you want to perform again and again and again.

像在消息中添加“喜欢”这样微不足道的事情应该是您想要一次又一次执行的操作。

Another feature, on the more serious side, is end-to-end encryption.

另一个更重要的功能是端到端加密。

2:39:43 You led the industry in that.

你们在这方面处于行业领先地位。

It was launched one year and three months ahead.

它提前一年零三个月推出。

Can you speak to why you decided to add end-to-end encryption and how you developed the encryption algorithm in the beginning?

您能谈谈为什么决定添加端到端加密以及您一开始是如何开发加密算法的吗？

What was your thinking behind that?

你的想法是什么？

At 2013 when we were launching Telegram, we were aware of the serious issue with privacy that Edward Snowden made very clear.

2013 年，当我们推出 Telegram 时，我们意识到爱德华·斯诺登 (Edward Snowden) 明确指出的严重隐私问题。

2:40:03 We thought, yes, we’re designing this product in a way that is already extremely secure, but we want to make sure that not even we can access user messages.

我们认为，是的，我们正在以一种已经非常安全的方式设计这个产品，但我们希望确保即使我们也无法访问用户消息。

We understood very clearly that a bunch of people who were born in Russia don’t necessarily inspire trust.

我们非常清楚，一群出生在俄罗斯的人不一定能激发信任。

That’s why we made Telegram open source, so all our apps have been available on GitHub since 2013 and then we added end-to-end encryption in our Secret Chats, which WhatsApp copied a few years after.

这就是我们将 Telegram 开源的原因，因此自 2013 年以来我们所有的应用程序都可以在 GitHub 上使用，然后我们在秘密聊天中添加了端到端加密，几年后 WhatsApp 也复制了这一点。

One year and three months ahead they just started to test it.

一年零三个月后，他们才刚刚开始测试。

They rolled this out I think 2016, which is three years after us and the only reason I think the rest of the industry had to do it is because we set the standard.

我想他们是在 2016 年推出的，也就是我们推出三年后，我认为行业其他公司必须这样做的唯一原因是我们制定了标准。

2:41:23 It was incredibly important back in the day and at the same time we realized certain limitations of end-to-end encryption.

这在当时非常重要，同时我们意识到端到端加密的某些局限性。

Within that design, that architecture, you can’t support very large chat communities with consistent persistent chat histories.

在该设计、该架构中，您无法支持具有一致的持久聊天历史记录的大型聊天社区。

You can’t support huge one-to-many channels.

您无法支持巨大的一对多渠道。

You’d have issues with maintaining bots that have lots of incoming messages.

您在维护有大量传入消息的机器人时会遇到问题。

Multiple device support becomes tricky.

多设备支持变得很棘手。

People will end up losing some of the documents they share.

人们最终会丢失他们共享的一些文档。

We also saw a lot of issues and we ended up having this sort of hybrid experience where depending on your use case and your requirements, you can choose the level of encryption that we want to have.

我们还看到了很多问题，最终我们获得了这种混合体验，根据您的用例和要求，您可以选择我们想要的加密级别。

That’s why you chose to go opt-in for end-to-end encryption.

这就是您选择选择端到端加密的原因。

2:42:27 The trade off there that you are describing is between for people who really care about specific messages, extreme privacy on those messages and usability, like being able to sync across multiple devices, having groups that are 200,000 people.

您所描述的权衡是在真正关心特定消息的人、这些消息的极端隐私和可用性之间进行的，例如能够跨多个设备同步，拥有 200,000 人的群组。

All of those features, quality of life features, there’s a trade-off between those and end-to-end encryption.

所有这些功能，生活质量功能，在这些功能和端到端加密之间都存在权衡。

You lean towards letting users enable end-to-end encryption for cases when they want to be super secure.

您倾向于让用户在想要超级安全的情况下启用端到端加密。

Yes.

是的。

2:43:04 Secret Chats are not just end-to-end encrypted.

秘密聊天不仅仅是端到端加密。

There are certain limitations that are both a feature and a bug.

有一些限制既是功能又是错误。

For example, you can’t screenshot them.

例如，您无法对它们进行屏幕截图。

You can’t forward any document, any message from them, which is not necessarily something you need when you are trying to get some work done and you are just communicating with your team on a project.

你不能转发他们的任何文件、任何消息，当你试图完成一些工作并且你只是与你的团队就一个项目进行沟通时，这不一定是你需要的。

It became very clear to us that there are different needs here and if you try to combine both in one type of chat, you will end up losing a lot of utility.

我们非常清楚，这里有不同的需求，如果您尝试将两者结合在一种聊天类型中，您最终将失去很多实用性。

We at Telegram, we don’t use any collaboration tool for teamwork.

在 Telegram，我们不使用任何协作工具进行团队合作。

We use Telegram to build Telegram.

我们使用 Telegram 来构建 Telegram。

We felt instantly when we were trying to switch to say Secret Chats, to share large documents and tried to get work done, it was just not adapted for it.

当我们试图切换到“秘密聊天”、共享大型文档并试图完成工作时，我们立即感到它不适合它。

At the same time, if you were really paranoid, you think, I don’t want to be screenshotted, I don’t want to have any leaks, I don’t even trust Telegram, I only trust code.

同时，如果你真的很偏执，你会想，我不想被截图，我不想有任何泄密，我什至不信任 Telegram，我只信任代码。

Secret Chats are the best option.

秘密聊天是最好的选择。

I believe is the most secure means of communication today.

我相信这是当今最安全的通信方式。

We should say that there’s a lot of other aspects to this that are important.

我们应该说，还有很多其他方面也很重要。

2:44:36 For example, Telegram is the only app that has open source reproducible builds for both Android and iOS.

例如，Telegram 是唯一一款针对 Android 和 iOS 都具有开源可复制版本的应用程序。

Why is this important?

为什么这很重要？

You need reproducible builds in order to verify that the app really does what it claims, really encrypts data in a way that it is described on its website.

您需要可重复的构建，以验证该应用程序是否确实按照其声称的方式进行操作，是否确实按照其网站上描述的方式加密数据。

2:44:49 For that you need to make your apps open source for any researchers to have a look at it.

为此，您需要将您的应用程序开源以供任何研究人员查看。

Telegram has been open source since 2013.

Telegram 自 2013 年以来一直开源。

Apps like WhatsApp have never been open source, so you don’t really know what they’re doing and how exactly they encrypt your messages.

像 WhatsApp 这样的应用程序从来都不是开源的，所以你并不真正知道它们在做什么，也不知道它们到底是如何加密你的消息的。

What’s important here though is to understand whether the version of the app that you download from the app store corresponds exactly to the source code that you can view on GitHub.

不过，这里重要的是了解您从应用程序商店下载的应用程序版本是否与您可以在 GitHub 上查看的源代码完全对应。

For that you need reproducible builds.

为此，您需要可重复的构建。

2:45:48 As you said, Telegram is the only popular messaging app that does that.

正如您所说，Telegram 是唯一一款能够做到这一点的流行消息应用程序。

We allow people to make sure both on Android and the iOS that the source code of Telegram on GitHub and the app you are actually using is the same app.

我们允许人们在 Android 和 iOS 上确保 GitHub 上的 Telegram 源代码和您实际使用的应用程序是同一个应用程序。

I think it’s incredibly important, not just to gain people’s trust, but just to stay transparent and open about it.

我认为这非常重要，不仅是为了赢得人们的信任，而且是为了保持透明和开放。

When I make this claim that Telegram’s Secret Chats are the most secure way of communicating, I really mean it because I haven’t seen any fact contradicting this claim, at least among the popular messaging app.

当我声称 Telegram 的秘密聊天是最安全的通信方式时，我是认真的，因为我没有看到任何与这一说法相矛盾的事实，至少在流行的消息应用程序中是这样。

You say WhatsApp, Signal, iMessage.

你说的是 WhatsApp、Signal、iMessage。

None of them have reproducible builds on both iOS and Android.

它们都没有在 iOS 和 Android 上可重现的构建。

None of them had at least at the same level put so much effort into making sure that the algorithms that you use in order to encrypt data are not algorithms that have been handed to you by some agency in order to create a honey pot, at least from what I know about our competitors.

他们中没有人至少在同一级别上投入如此多的努力来确保您用于加密数据的算法不是某些机构为了创建蜜罐而交给您的算法，至少从我对我们竞争对手的了解来看是这样。

I don’t think they went through the same process.

我不认为他们经历了同样的过程。

We should say that the entirety of the software stack in Telegram is done from scratch internally to Telegram.

应该说，Telegram 中的整个软件堆栈都是在 Telegram 内部从头开始完成的。

2:47:23 We’re talking about not just the encryption, but everything running on the servers.

我们不仅讨论加密，还讨论服务器上运行的所有内容。

The servers are built out, the hardware and the software are all done internally, which is one of the ways you reduce the attack surface on the entire stack that handles the messages.

服务器是内置的，硬件和软件都是在内部完成的，这是减少处理消息的整个堆栈上的攻击面的方法之一。

It does make it more secure because if Snowden’s revelations taught us anything is that very often open source tools, modules, libraries, that they used by everybody, ended up having certain flaws and security issues that make software vulnerable.

它确实使它更安全，因为如果斯诺登的爆料告诉我们什么的话，那就是，每个人都使用的开源工具、模块、库往往会出现某些缺陷和安全问题，从而使软件容易受到攻击。

2:47:45 It’s also a way to make sure you are doing things the most efficient way possible, but it’s extremely difficult to do that.

这也是确保您以最有效的方式做事的一种方法，但要做到这一点极其困难。

You really have to have exceptional talent in your team to achieve this level of thoroughness, to go to a low level of coding that allows you to recreate from scratch database engines, web servers, entire programming languages because the programming language we use on the back end to develop the API for the client apps is also entirely built by our team.

你的团队确实必须拥有杰出的人才才能达到这种程度的彻底性，进行低水平的编码，使你能够从头开始重新创建数据库引擎、Web 服务器、整个编程语言，因为我们在后端为客户端应用程序开发 API 所使用的编程语言也完全由我们的团队构建。

Removing, minimizing the reliance on open source libraries is extremely difficult as most companies, they rely on open source libraries.

消除、最小化对开源库的依赖是极其困难的，因为大多数公司都依赖开源库。

Well, I wouldn’t say we are completely independent from that.

嗯，我不会说我们完全独立于它。

2:49:09 We use Linux on the back end.

我们在后端使用Linux。

There’s no way of avoiding it for us at the moment, but for the most part we are much more self-reliant than most other apps.

目前我们无法避免这种情况，但在大多数情况下，我们比大多数其他应用程序更加自力更生。

You mentioned Edward Snowden.

你提到了爱德华·斯诺登。

2:49:26 A long time ago you wanted to work together with him, perhaps to share expertise, to understand the full realm of what it takes to achieve cybersecurity.

很久以前，您想与他一起工作，也许是为了分享专业知识，了解实现网络安全所需的全部领域。

What do you make of his case?

你对他的案子有何看法？

What lessons do you learn from what he has uncovered and maybe even broadly, what impact has his work had on the world, do you think?

您从他的发现中学到了什么教训，甚至更广泛地说，您认为他的工作对世界产生了哪些影响？

Well, the main lesson is not everything is what it seems.

好吧，主要的教训是并非一切都像看上去的那样。

2:49:53 You would discover and this is something that I found quite shocking at the time, that a lot of people who you thought were security and cryptography experts ended up being agents of the NSA in one way or the other, promoting flawed encryption standards.

你会发现，这是我当时感到非常震惊的事情，很多你认为是安全和密码学专家的人最终以某种方式成为美国国家安全局的代理人，推广有缺陷的加密标准。

You wouldn’t end up discovering that your government that was supposed to be limited in how it can surveil its people, actually doesn’t consider itself that limited.

你最终不会发现，你的政府本应在监视人民方面受到限制，但实际上并不认为自己有那么有限。

That was very valuable for the world to understand.

这对于全世界的理解来说非常有价值。

2:50:50 I guess it also can be a lesson demonstrated that we humans don’t get the balance right.

我想这也可以作为一个教训，证明我们人类没有达到正确的平衡。

9/11 created a situation when the government had to respond and it responded, but it overreacted.

9/11 造成了政府必须做出回应的局面，政府也做出了回应，但反应过度了。

It ended up eroding certain basic rights and freedoms including the right to privacy because the government always wants to increase its powers and the government always tries to do it at the expense of citizens.

它最终侵蚀了某些基本权利和自由，包括隐私权，因为政府总是想增加其权力，而政府总是试图以牺牲公民为代价来做到这一点。

You have the situation when the cure is worse than the disease.

你会遇到这样的情况：治疗方法比疾病本身更糟糕。

I think it was incredibly brave to do what Edward did.

我认为爱德华所做的事情非常勇敢。

I didn’t get to work with him.

我没能和他一起工作。

Whoever see him in person, we keep in touch, we sometimes communicate, but we’re not close.

无论谁见到他本人，我们都会保持联系，有时会交流，但并不亲密。

I still, I think what he did is laudable.

我仍然认为他的所作所为是值得称赞的。

I hope someday we meet.

我希望有一天我们能见面。

You yourself have faced the full force of various governments, intelligence agencies.

你自己就面临着各国政府、情报机构的全力打击。

2:51:59 Is there any intelligence agency you’re afraid of?

有你害怕的情报机构吗？

Any government you’re afraid of?

你害怕什么政府？

I think they should be equally afraid of or equally not afraid of, in a way.

我认为在某种程度上，他们应该同样害怕或同样不害怕。

2:52:15 It’s not that intelligence services can kill you and the other can’t kill you.

并不是说情报部门可以杀你，其他部门就不能杀你。

They all can kill you?

他们都能杀了你？

I guess they all can kill me one way or the other, but it’s a matter of whether I’m afraid of death.

我想他们都能杀了我，但问题在于我是否害怕死亡。

This goes back to the beginning of our conversation, I think, multiple times.

我想，这可以多次追溯到我们谈话的开始。

2:52:34 You’re in general fearless in the face of the pressure.

面对压力，你通常无所畏惧。

That would be a very bold statement, but I proved to be quite stress resilient and it’s not that you don’t have fear.

这将是一个非常大胆的声明，但事实证明我具有很强的抗压能力，但这并不是说你没有恐惧。

2:52:42 You can have fear, but you overcome this fear.

你可以有恐惧，但你要克服这种恐惧。

I don’t think there is anything at this point that can happen to change the way I am.

我认为目前没有任何事情可以改变我的现状。

You went through a lot from 2011 to 2014, government pressure that you refused to give into, that led you to create Telegram and let go of VK.

从 2011 年到 2014 年，你经历了很多，你拒绝屈服的政府压力，这导致你创建了 Telegram，并放弃了 VK。

2:53:11 Then in 2018, Russia and Iran decided to ban Telegram.

然后在 2018 年，俄罗斯和伊朗决定禁止 Telegram。

That was another example of pressure.

这是压力的另一个例子。

Can you take me through that saga in 2018?

你能带我回顾一下 2018 年的传奇故事吗？

In 2018 Telegram started to become popular.

2018年，Telegram开始流行。

2:53:35 I think we had something like 200 million users and it increasingly became popular in places like Iran and Russia and other countries where sometimes people have something to hide from the government.

我认为我们有大约 2 亿用户，并且它在伊朗、俄罗斯和其他国家越来越受欢迎，这些国家有时人们有一些事情要向政府隐瞒。

In Iran, people use Telegram to protest against the government.

在伊朗，人们使用 Telegram 来抗议政府。

They had these huge channels that they would use to organize the protests and eventually the government couldn’t keep up.

他们拥有这些巨大的渠道来组织抗议活动，但最终政府无法跟上。

They decided to ban Telegram.

他们决定禁止 Telegram。

People would still keep using it though using VPNs.

尽管使用 VPN，人们仍然会继续使用它。

It didn’t help.

这没有帮助。

The government invested a lot in coming up with their own messaging app.

政府投入了大量资金来开发自己的消息应用程序。

They had several teams competing for the title of the nationally reigning messaging app.

他们有几支团队争夺全国领先的消息应用程序的头衔。

All these apps failed.

所有这些应用程序都失败了。

People still preferred Telegram.

人们仍然更喜欢 Telegram。

Interestingly, Iran banned Telegram, but WhatsApp wasn’t banned.

有趣的是，伊朗禁止了 Telegram，但 WhatsApp 并未被禁止。

2:55:01 WhatsApp wasn’t banned.

WhatsApp 并未被禁止。

Or at least they unbanned WhatsApp soon after.

或者至少他们很快就解禁了 WhatsApp。

At the same time starting in mid-2017 or late-2017, Russia demanded that Telegram hands them the encryption keys.

与此同时，从 2017 年中或 2017 年底开始，俄罗斯要求 Telegram 向他们提供加密密钥。

They thought these things exist, something that would allow them to read messages of every person on Telegram or at least every person on Telegram in Russia.

他们认为这些东西是存在的，可以让他们读取 Telegram 上每个人的消息，或者至少是俄罗斯 Telegram 上每个人的消息。

And we told them, it’s impossible.

我们告诉他们，这是不可能的。

If you have to ban us, ban us.

如果您必须禁止我们，请禁止我们。

And this is what they ended up doing in spring 2018.

这就是他们最终在 2018 年春季所做的事情。

And that was quite fun because they were trying to block our IP addresses, but we were prepared for that and we came up with this technology that allowed us to rotate IP addresses, replacing them with new ones every time the sensor blocks our existing addresses.

这很有趣，因为他们试图阻止我们的 IP 地址，但我们为此做好了准备，我们想出了这项技术，允许我们轮换 IP 地址，每次传感器阻止我们现有的地址时，用新的 IP 地址替换它们。

And then it was completely automated.

然后就完全自动化了。

We had millions of IP addresses.

我们有数百万个 IP 地址。

We would be burning through them.

我们会被他们烧死。

We set up this movement called Digital Resistance when system administrators and engineers all around the world, both inside and outside Russia could set up their own proxy servers and their own IP addresses for Telegram to rely on in order to bypass censorship.

我们发起了这场名为“数字抵抗”的运动，当时世界各地的系统管理员和工程师，无论是俄罗斯境内还是境外，都可以建立自己的代理服务器和自己的 IP 地址，供 Telegram 依靠，以绕过审查制度。

2:56:41 We ended up spending I think, millions of dollars on that.

我想我们最终为此花费了数百万美元。

And as a result, the sensor got crazy there.

结果，传感器在那里变得疯狂。

They would ban IP addresses and large subnets of IP addresses and huge subnets, which resulted in a weird situation where parts of the country’s infrastructure started to go down.

他们会禁止 IP 地址和 IP 地址的大型子网和庞大的子网，这导致了一种奇怪的情况，该国的部分基础设施开始瘫痪。

People were trying to pay for groceries in the supermarkets and nothing would work because the Russian sensor blocked too many IP addresses and some of the subnets were used to host other unrelated services.

人们试图在超市购买杂货，但没有任何效果，因为俄罗斯传感器阻止了太多的 IP 地址，并且一些子网被用来托管其他不相关的服务。

Even some Russian social networks and media got affected.

甚至一些俄罗斯社交网络和媒体也受到了影响。

Banks.

银行。

So they had to start being more selective in how they combat our anti-censorship tools.

因此，他们必须开始更有选择性地对抗我们的反审查工具。

2:57:41 The biggest resistance we got at the time was from Apple.

当时我们遇到的最大阻力来自苹果。

Apple didn’t allow us to update Telegram in the app store saying for at least four weeks that we have to come to an agreement with Russia first who said it’s not possible.

苹果不允许我们在应用商店更新 Telegram，并表示至少四个星期以来我们必须首先与俄罗斯达成协议，而俄罗斯表示这是不可能的。

They said, “We will allow you to push your update for Telegram worldwide except for Russia.” We didn’t want to do that.

他们说：“我们将允许您在除俄罗斯之外的全球范围内推送 Telegram 的更新。”我们不想那样做。

Almost lost hope.

几乎失去了希望。

At some point I said, “Maybe this is the only way.

在某些时候我说：“也许这是唯一的方法。

Maybe we should leave the Russian market.

也许我们应该离开俄罗斯市场。

Stop allowing users from Russia to download the app from the app store.” Which would mean it’s over.

停止允许俄罗斯用户从应用程序商店下载该应用程序。”这意味着一切都结束了。

We helped organize certain protests in defense of Telegram and privacy and freedom of speech in 2018 in Moscow.

2018 年，我们在莫斯科帮助组织了一些捍卫 Telegram 以及隐私和言论自由的抗议活动。

There was hilarious people flying paper airplanes.

有搞笑的人在飞纸飞机。

I saw that.

我看到了。

And at some point I decided I have to make a statement.

在某个时刻，我决定我必须发表声明。

2:58:49 I have to say that Apple sided with the censor.

我不得不说，苹果站在了审查者一边。

That we are trying to do the right thing here, but without Apple we can’t do much because people can’t download your app anymore.

我们试图在这里做正确的事情，但如果没有苹果，我们就无能为力，因为人们无法再下载你的应用程序。

I published it in my channel and then New York Times picked it up with the picture of the protesters flying paper airplanes.

我在我的频道上发布了它，然后《纽约时报》转载了它，并附上了抗议者驾驶纸飞机的照片。

Apple was criticized in that story and I thought, well, Apple should probably come back to the right side of history here.

苹果在那个故事中受到了批评，我想，好吧，苹果可能应该回到历史的正确一边。

And I waited for one day and two days.

我也等了一天两天。

In the meantime, since we’ve been unable to update Telegram for more than a month, it started to fall apart because the new version of iOS came out and it made the old versions of Telegram obsolete.

与此同时，由于我们已经一个多月无法更新 Telegram，它开始崩溃，因为新版本 iOS 的出现使得旧版本的 Telegram 变得过时。

Some features that used to work stop working and users all over the world start to suffer.

一些曾经有效的功能停止工作，世界各地的用户开始受到影响。

People that had nothing to do with Russia from other parts of the world experienced issues with Telegram.

世界其他地区与俄罗斯无关的人们在使用 Telegram 时遇到了问题。

So it was really serious and I said to my team, you know what if by 6:00 P.M.

所以这真的很严重，我对我的团队说，你知道如果到下午 6:00 会怎样吗？

today …

今天……

I think it was a Friday.

我想那是星期五。

Nothing changes and Apple doesn’t allow us to push the version of Telegram through, let’s just forget about the Russian market.

一切都没有改变，苹果也不允许我们推送 Telegram 版本，让我们忘记俄罗斯市场吧。

Let’s keep going because the rest of the world is more important.

让我们继续前进，因为世界其他地方更重要。

It’s sad, but what can we do?

很难过，但是我们能做什么呢？

Which by the way, removes all the people that want to protest all the people that want to talk in Russia and removes their ability to have a voice in the most popular messaging app in that part of the world.

顺便说一句，这消除了所有想要抗议所有想要在俄罗斯发言的人，并消除了他们在世界该地区最受欢迎的消息应用程序中发表意见的能力。

Yes.

是的。

3:00:55 Magically 15 minutes to the time I was planning to remove Telegram from the Russian app store in order to proceed globally, Apple reached out to us and said, “It’s okay.

神奇的是，就在我计划从俄罗斯应用商店中删除 Telegram 以在全球范围内推广时，苹果公司联系了我们，说：“没关系。

Your update is approved.” And we managed to keep playing this hide and seek game with the sensor bypassing censorship through digital resistance.

您的更新已获得批准。”我们设法继续玩这种捉迷藏游戏，传感器通过数字电阻绕过审查制度。

In Iran, it was a little bit different because we realized it would’ve been too expensive to try to come up with all these IP addresses, and in addition, it was not clear whether we wouldn’t be in violation of the sanctions regime.

在伊朗，情况有点不同，因为我们意识到尝试提供所有这些 IP 地址的成本太高，此外，还不清楚我们是否不会违反制裁制度。

So we did something else.

所以我们做了别的事情。

We created an economic incentive for people who would set up proxy servers for Telegram.

我们为那些愿意为 Telegram 设置代理服务器的人提供了经济激励。

Any person, say an Iranian engineer could come up with a proxy server, distribute its address among users in Iran, and whoever connected through the proxy of this person would be able to see a pinned chat, an ad placed there by the system administrator, the owner of the proxy.

任何人，比如伊朗工程师都可以拿出一个代理服务器，在伊朗的用户之间分发其地址，并且通过此人的代理连接的任何人都可以看到固定的聊天，这是由系统管理员（代理的所有者）放置在那里的广告。

And this is how you can monetize your proxy.

这就是您通过代理获利的方式。

So it created this market which resulted in Iranians fixing their own problem.

因此它创造了这个市场，导致伊朗人解决了自己的问题。

And as a result, we kept millions or maybe 10s of millions of Iranian users.

结果，我们保留了数百万甚至数十百万伊朗用户。

Up until this day I think Telegram is still banned in Iran today, but we probably have something like 50 million people relying on Telegram from that country.

直到今天，我认为 Telegram 在伊朗仍然被禁止，但该国可能有大约 5000 万人依赖 Telegram。

So that people find a way around.

以便人们找到解决办法。

People find a way around.

人们找到了解决办法。

That’s ingenious.

这太巧妙了。

3:03:11 That’s really great to hear.

听到这真是太好了。

I have to ask you about this.

我必须问你这个问题。

After having spent many days with you, I learned of something that you’ve never talked about at the time, have not talked about to this day, that there was an assassination attempt on you using what appears to be poisoning in 2018.

和你相处了很多天后，我了解到一些你当时从未谈论过、至今也没有谈论过的事情，那就是2018年有人企图用疑似中毒的东西暗杀你。

I think to me, it showed this seriousness of this fight to uphold the freedom of speech for everyone, for all people of earth that you’re doing.

我认为，这表明了这场维护每个人、地球上所有人的言论自由的斗争的严肃性。

I have to say it would mean a lot to me if you tell me this story.

我不得不说，如果你告诉我这个故事，这对我来说意义重大。

Well, this is something I never talked about publicly because I didn’t want people to freak out particularly at the time, it was spring 2018.

嗯，这是我从未公开谈论过的事情，因为我不想让人们惊慌失措，特别是在当时，那是 2018 年春天。

3:03:55 We were trying to raise funds for TON, a blockchain project working with all kinds of VCs and investors.

我们试图为 TON 筹集资金，这是一个与各种风险投资公司和投资者合作的区块链项目。

In the meantime, we had a couple of countries trying to ban Telegram.

与此同时，有几个国家试图禁止 Telegram。

So it wasn’t exactly the best moment for me to start sharing anything related to my personal health.

因此，这对我来说并不是开始分享与我个人健康相关的任何事情的最佳时机。

But that was something that is hard to forget.

但那是一件很难忘记的事情。

I never fall ill.

我从来没有生病过。

I believe I have perfect health.

我相信我拥有完美的健康。

I very rarely have headaches or bad cough.

我很少头痛或剧烈咳嗽。

I don’t take pills because I don’t have to take pills.

我不吃药，因为我不需要吃药。

And that was the only instant in my life when I think I was dying.

那是我一生中唯一一次我觉得自己快要死了的时刻。

3:05:05 I came back home, opened the door of my townhouse, the place I rented.

我回到家，打开我租的联排别墅的门。

I had this weird neighbor and he left something for me there around the door.

我有一个奇怪的邻居，他在门边给我留了一些东西。

And one hour after when I was already in my bed …

一小时后，当我已经躺在床上时……

So I was living alone.

所以我一个人住。

I felt very bad.

我感觉很糟糕。

I felt pain all over my body.

我感到全身疼痛。

I tried to get up and go to the bathroom, but while I was going there, I felt that functions of my body started to switch off.

我试图起身去卫生间，但当我去的时候，我感觉身体的功能开始停止运转。

First the eyesight and hearing, then I had difficulty breathing.

首先是视力和听力，然后是呼吸困难。

Everything accompanied by very acute pain.

一切都伴随着非常剧烈的疼痛。

Heart, stomach, all blood vessels.

心脏，胃，所有血管。

It’s a difficult thing to explain, but one thing I was certain about is, yeah, this is it.

这是一件很难解释的事情，但我确信的一件事是，是的，就是这样。

You thought you were going to die.

你以为你会死。

Yeah.

是的。

3:06:26 This is it.

就是这样。

Because I couldn’t breathe.

因为我无法呼吸。

I couldn’t see anything.

我什么也看不见。

Was very painful.

非常痛苦。

I think it’s over.

我想一切都结束了。

I thought, well, I had a good life.

我想，好吧，我过着美好的生活。

I managed to accomplish a few things.

我设法完成了一些事情。

And then I collapsed on the floor, but I don’t remember it because the pain covered everything.

然后我倒在地板上，但我不记得了，因为疼痛掩盖了一切。

I found myself on the floor the next day.

第二天我发现自己躺在地板上。

Was already bright and I couldn’t stand up.

天已经大亮了，我已经站不起来了。

I was super weak.

我当时超级虚弱。

I looked at my arms and my body, blood vessels were broken all over my body.

我看看自己的手臂和身体，全身的血管都碎了。

Something like this never happened to me.

这样的事情从来没有发生在我身上。

I couldn’t walk for two weeks after.

两周后我无法行走。

I stayed at my place and I decided not to tell most of my team about it because again, I didn’t want them to worry.

我留在自己的住处，决定不告诉我的团队中的大多数人，因为我不想让他们担心。

But it was tough.

但这很艰难。

That was tough.

那很艰难。

Did that make you afraid of the road you are walking, meaning all the governments, all the intelligence agencies, all the people like we mentioned?

这是否让你害怕你所走的路，即所有政府、所有情报机构、所有我们提到的人？

3:07:35 It’s like you’re playing a video game.

就像你在玩电子游戏一样。

You started with VK where you’re just trying to build a thing that scales and all of a sudden you find out there’s DDoS attacking the security, the integrity of the infrastructure, and then you realize there’s politics and then you realize there’s geopolitics and all of these forces are interested in controlling channels of communication, and you’re just a curious guy who created a platform for everybody on the earth to talk, and all of a sudden you realize there’s a lot of people attacking you.

你从 VK 开始，你只是试图构建一个可扩展的东西，突然你发现有 DDoS 攻击基础设施的安全性和完整性，然后你意识到有政治，然后你意识到有地缘政治，所有这些力量都对控制通信渠道感兴趣，你只是一个好奇的人，为地球上的每个人创建了一个交流平台，突然你意识到有很多人在攻击你。

How did that change your view?

这如何改变了你的看法？

Did that make you more scared of the world?

这是否让你更加害怕这个世界？

Interestingly, not at all.

有趣的是，一点也不。

3:08:42 If anything, I felt even more free after that.

如果说有什么不同的话，那就是在那之后我感觉更加自由了。

It wasn’t the first time I thought I was going to die.

这不是我第一次想到我会死。

I had an experience when I assumed something bad is going to happen to me a few years before that also in relation to my work.

几年前，我有过一次经历，当时我假设一些不好的事情会发生在我身上，这也与我的工作有关。

But after you survive something like this, you feel like you’re living on bonus time.

但当你经历了这样的事情后，你会觉得自己生活在额外的时间里。

So in a way, you died a long time ago, and every new day you get is a gift.

所以在某种程度上，你很久以前就死了，而你得到的每一个新的一天都是一份礼物。

Is a bonus.

是奖金。

Yes.

是的。

And the first time you’re referring to would that have to do with the complexity that was happening with the pressure from the government on VK?

您第一次提到的这是否与政府对 VK 施加的压力所带来的复杂性有关？

3:09:32 The increasing pressure and you had to figure out what to do, and you understood that you’re losing control of VK that moment.

压力越来越大，你必须弄清楚该怎么做，你明白那一刻你正在失去对 VK 的控制。

The first of these instances was in December 2011.

第一次发生在 2011 年 12 月。

3:09:52 December 2011 you had this huge protest on the streets of Moscow.

2011 年 12 月，莫斯科街头发生了大规模抗议活动。

They didn’t trust in the integrity of the election results to the state Duma in Russia.

他们不相信俄罗斯国家杜马选举结果的完整性。

I remember 2011, I still lived in Russia running VK.

我记得2011年，我还住在俄罗斯经营VK。

There was no Telegram.

没有电报。

So the government demanded that we take down the opposition groups of Navalny from VK that had hundreds of thousands of members and that were used to organize this protest.

因此政府要求我们镇压 VK 的纳瓦尔尼反对派团体，该团体拥有数十万成员，并被用来组织这次抗议活动。

And I very publicly refused to do that.

我非常公开地拒绝这样做。

I just decided it’s not the right thing to do.

我只是觉得这不是正确的做法。

People have the right to assemble.

人们有集会的权利。

And I mocked the Prosecutor who handed me that demand.

我嘲笑了向我提出这一要求的检察官。

They put out a scan of it.

他们拿出了它的扫描件。

And next to it a photo of a dog in a hoodie with its tongue out.

旁边还有一张照片，照片上是一只穿着连帽衫、吐着舌头的狗。

And I said …

我说……

This is my official response to the prosecutor’s request to ban the opposition groups.

这是我对检察官要求取缔反对派团体的正式回应。

That was very funny at the moment.

那一刻非常有趣。

But then I had armed policemen trying to get into my apartment, and I thought about many things at that moment.

但后来武装警察试图进入我的公寓，那一刻我想到了很多事情。

I asked myself, did I make the right choice?

我问自己，我的选择正确吗？

And I came to the conclusion that I made the right choice and I asked myself, what would be the next thing that would logically follow from this?

我得出的结论是，我做出了正确的选择，我问自己，从逻辑上讲，接下来会发生什么？

And I realized they’re probably going to put me in prison, so what am I going to do about it?

我意识到他们可能会把我关进监狱，那么我该怎么办呢？

I asked myself.

我问自己。

3:12:04 And I told myself, I’m going to starve myself to death.

我告诉自己，我要饿死自己。

It’s something that probably many men have.

这可能是很多男人都有的。

They’re ready to die for other people or certain principles they strongly believe in.

他们已经准备好为他人或他们坚信的某些原则而死。

I’m not alone here.

我并不孤单。

I guess Edward Snowden was ready to die as well, or some other people like Assange.

我猜爱德华·斯诺登或者像阿桑奇这样的其他人也已经准备好去死了。

Also, at that moment, I realized there’s no way to communicate securely.

而且，在那一刻，我意识到没有办法安全地进行通信。

I need to tell my brother what’s going on.

我需要告诉我哥哥发生了什么事。

They’re probably going after him.

他们可能正在追捕他。

How do I tell him without betraying him?

我该如何告诉他而不背叛他？

Because in 2011, remember WhatsApp was already there.

因为在 2011 年，WhatsApp 就已经存在了。

I think they launched in 2009, but it had zero encryption.

我认为他们是在 2009 年推出的，但它的加密程度为零。

All messages were plain text in transit, meaning that even your system administrator, let alone your carrier had access to your messages it was only after Telegram started this push for encryption that this other apps suddenly remembered that privacy wasn’t their DNA as WhatsApp founders famously stated, but it must have been a dormant gene in 2011.

所有消息在传输过程中都是纯文本，这意味着即使是您的系统管理员，更不用说您的运营商也可以访问您的消息，直到 Telegram 开始推动加密之后，其他应用程序才突然想起，正如 WhatsApp 创始人所说的那样，隐私并不是它们的 DNA，但它一定是 2011 年的休眠基因。

Yeah.

是的。

3:13:28 Yeah.

是的。

In 2011, there was no way to send a message in secure way.

2011 年，还没有办法以安全的方式发送消息。

3:13:33 And I also told myself, if I’m going to survive this, I’m definitely launching a secure messaging app.

我还告诉自己，如果我能渡过难关，我一定会推出一款安全的消息应用程序。

Somehow it ended up not being too bad.

不知何故，结果并不算太糟糕。

I was summoned to the Prosecutor, answered some silly questions, fewer questions that I had to answer more recently in the French investigation case.

我被传唤到检察官那里，回答了一些愚蠢的问题，这些问题比我最近在法国调查案件中必须回答的问题要少。

But it was the beginning of the end.

但这是结束的开始。

It was clear that there’s no way I’m going to be allowed to run VK the way I wanted it to run.

很明显，我不可能按照我希望的方式运行 VK。

That was the moment I packed my backpack and just started to wait.

那一刻我收拾好背包开始等待。

I moved to hotel and realized any day I can leave the country, I kept running VK.

我搬到酒店并意识到我随时可以离开这个国家，我继续运行 VK。

I started to design Telegram and assembling the team.

我开始设计 Telegram 并组建团队。

But I knew my days in Russia were numbered.

但我知道我在俄罗斯的日子屈指可数了。

First I really have to say for myself from I think millions, maybe hundreds of millions, maybe the entirety of Earth, thank you for putting your life on the line in those cases, I think freedom of speech is fundamental to the flourishing of humanity.

首先，我真的必须为自己说，我认为数百万人，也许是数亿人，也许是整个地球，谢谢你们在这些情况下冒着生命危险，我认为言论自由是人类繁荣的基础。

3:15:01 And it depends on people willing to put everything on the line for their principles.

这取决于人们是否愿意为了自己的原则而赌上一切。

So thank you.

所以谢谢你。

Quick pause.

快速暂停。

I need a bathroom break.

我需要去洗手间休息一下。

All right, we’re back.

好吧，我们回来了。

And once again, we had a super long day and the fact that you would spend many hours with me, thank you for powering through.

再一次，我们度过了漫长的一天，事实上，您会和我一起度过很多时间，感谢您的支持。

We got this.

我们得到了这个。

It’s already late at night.

已经是深夜了。

Thanks for doing this.

感谢您这样做。

Okay.

好的。

3:15:47 So there is increasing indication I think from things I’ve seen online that Russia is considering banning Telegram.

因此，我认为从网上看到的情况来看，越来越多的迹象表明俄罗斯正在考虑禁止 Telegram。

First of all, do you think this might happen and what effect do you think this might have on humanity and in general what do you think about this?

首先，您认为这可能会发生吗？您认为这可能会对人类产生什么影响？总的来说，您对此有何看法？

It can definitely happen.

这绝对有可能发生。

3:16:07 As you said, there are certain indications.

正如你所说，有一些迹象。

There have been certain attempts to partially ban it.

已经有人尝试部分禁止它。

Telegram is no longer accessible in parts of Russia such as Dagestan and will be incredibly sad if Russia restores its attempts to ban Telegram because currently it’s been used by its population for all kinds of purposes, not just personal communication or economic business activities, but also it’s the only platform which allows the Russian people to access independent sources of information.

Telegram 在俄罗斯部分地区（例如达吉斯坦）不再可用，如果俄罗斯恢复禁止 Telegram 的尝试，那将是令人难以置信的悲伤，因为目前它已被其人民用于各种目的，不仅仅是个人通信或经济商业活动，而且它是唯一允许俄罗斯人民访问独立信息来源的平台。

If you think about media outlets such as BBC or any other non-Russian of source of information, they’re only accessible in Russia through Telegram in the form of Telegram channels.

如果您考虑 BBC 等媒体机构或任何其他非俄罗斯信息来源，它们在俄罗斯只能通过 Telegram 的 Telegram 频道形式访问。

Their websites banned.

他们的网站被禁止。

Some other social media sites banned.

其他一些社交媒体网站被禁止。

And as you said, there are indications that Russia is planning to migrate users from existing messaging apps such as WhatsApp and Telegram to their own homegrown tool, which would of course be fully transparent to the government and wouldn’t allow voices independent from the government to express themselves.

正如你所说，有迹象表明俄罗斯正计划将用户从 WhatsApp 和 Telegram 等现有消息应用程序迁移到他们自己的本土工具，这当然对政府完全透明，并且不会允许独立于政府的声音表达自己。

3:17:53 It’s certainly an alarming trend.

这无疑是一个令人担忧的趋势。

We see these attempts in countries that are not famous for protecting freedom of speech, but also increasingly in countries that have been known to protect freedoms.

我们在那些并不以保护言论自由而闻名的国家看到了这些尝试，但在以保护自由而闻名的国家也越来越多地看到了这些尝试。

And this creates this vicious circle because in a way, European countries trying to fight freedom of speech under pretexts that sound legitimate, such as combating misinformation or election interference, they create precedents and they legitimize restrictions to freedom of speech, which then in turn be used by authoritarian regimes and they would say in places like China or Iran that they’re not doing anything different.

这就造成了这种恶性循环，因为在某种程度上，欧洲国家试图以听起来合法的借口（例如打击错误信息或选举干扰）来打击言论自由，他们创造了先例，并将对言论自由的限制合法化，然后这些限制又被独裁政权所利用，他们会在中国或伊朗等国家说，他们没有做任何不同的事情。

It’s the norm now to restrict voices that don’t go in line with the narrative.

现在限制与叙述不符的声音已成为常态。

3:19:11 That’s sad because one of the things that makes our life interesting is this abundance of different viewpoints of different people that we get to experience.

这是可悲的，因为让我们的生活变得有趣的事情之一就是我们能够体验到不同人的不同观点。

You limit the freedom of people, you inevitably decelerate economic growth, level of happiness, the way people can contribute to the society, the way people can express themselves.

如果限制人们的自由，就不可避免地会降低经济增长、幸福水平、人们为社会做出贡献的方式以及人们表达自己的方式。

I personally think it would be a huge mistake to ban a tool like Telegram in any country, particularly a large country such as Russia, because the Russian people are incredibly talented and resilient people.

我个人认为，在任何国家，尤其是像俄罗斯这样的大国，禁止像 Telegram 这样的工具将是一个巨大的错误，因为俄罗斯人民是非常有才华和坚韧的人民。

They’re among the first to start utilizing some of these recent innovations that Telegram implements.

他们是第一批开始利用 Telegram 最近实施的一些创新的公司之一。

They’re the early adopters.

他们是早期采用者。

I’d say them and also the Americans, perhaps other people from Eastern Europe like Ukrainians and Southeast Asians, they’re among the first people to start using any new addition that we launch.

我想说，他们以及美国人，也许还有来自东欧的其他人，如乌克兰人和东南亚人，他们是第一批开始使用我们推出的任何新产品的人。

They’re incredibly hungry for innovation.

他们非常渴望创新。

So all that said, as part of the propaganda and in general, there’s attacks on you all over the place.

话虽如此，作为宣传的一部分，总的来说，到处都有针对你的攻击。

3:20:32 There’s misinformation.

有错误信息。

I’ve read a bunch of things that are, I think in a systematic way, lying about you, lying about telegram from all angles.

我读过很多东西，我认为是系统性的，从各个角度对你、对电报撒谎。

Why do you get attacked so much by everybody?

为什么你会受到大家如此多的攻击？

For protecting freedom of speech.

为了保护言论自由。

3:20:56 It’s not a way to make a lot of friends.

这不是结交很多朋友的方法。

Because you would inevitably find yourself in a situation where you would be protecting the freedom of the opposition to the current government in any country to express themselves.

因为你不可避免地会发现自己处于这样一种境地：你要保护任何国家现任政府的反对派表达意见的自由。

And then the initial reaction and a very basic instinctive reaction of any government would be to say our position shouldn’t be trusted and allowed to express themselves because they’re actually are agents of some foreign rival, a geopolitical force that wants to destroy our country.

然后，任何政府的最初反应和非常基本的本能反应都是说我们的立场不应该被信任，也不应该被允许表达自己，因为他们实际上是一些外国竞争对手的代理人，这是一支想要摧毁我们国家的地缘政治力量。

This is something that every authoritarian regime in history used.

这是历史上每一个专制政权都使用的东西。

You take Stalinist Russia or Nazi Germany, Maoist China, they always use the same trick that say, “We need to limit your freedom of speech because these people who are masquerading as opposition are actually the agents of this other country that wants to take over.” That’s why their citizens forget about their freedoms.

以斯大林主义的俄罗斯、纳粹德国、毛主义的中国为例，他们总是使用同样的伎俩，说“我们需要限制你们的言论自由，因为这些伪装成反对派的人实际上是另一个想要接管的国家的代理人。”这就是为什么他们的公民忘记了他们的自由。

And now increasingly you see similar attempts in free countries.

现在，你越来越多地在自由国家看到类似的尝试。

3:22:33 The initial instinct from say, President Macron’s team, when they’re confronted with some footage.

例如，马克龙总统的团队在面对一些镜头时的最初本能。

For example, the footage of his wife slapping him would be to say it’s all fake Russian imagery.

例如，他妻子打他耳光的镜头就表明这都是假的俄罗斯图像。

Something that is inaccurate.

有什么不准确的地方。

Something that is misinformation or interference.

错误信息或干扰的东西。

And then when they are confronted with more information, they have to refine the narrative.

然后，当他们面临更多信息时，他们必须完善叙述。

So when you find yourself in a situation that you’re running this platform like Telegram, and then you protect the freedom to express of ideas that don’t go in line with the mainstream narrative, you often find yourself in this crossfire when the forces in power will say that you must be working with some foreign government that they don’t like.

因此，当你发现自己正在运行像 Telegram 这样的平台，然后你保护表达与主流叙事不符的想法的自由时，你经常会发现自己陷入了交火，当权者会说你必须与某个他们不喜欢的外国政府合作。

Inevitably they would say that, oh, if you’re protecting this voices, it’s not right.

他们不可避免地会说，哦，如果你保护这些声音，那是不对的。

They love you when you are protecting the freedom of speech in a country that is far from them or better yet in a country that is their geopolitical rival.

当你在一个远离他们的国家，或者更好的是在一个他们的地缘政治对手的国家保护言论自由时，他们爱你。

They praise you for that.

他们因此称赞你。

But then they have this bipolar attitude when you do the same in their own country and they say, “No, no, no, no, no.

但当你在自己的国家做同样的事情时，他们就会有这种两极态度，他们说：“不，不，不，不，不。

We loved you for protecting freedom of speech, but not here, not in my backyard.

我们爱你保护言论自由，但不是在这里，不是在我的后院。

We don’t need it here.

我们这里不需要它。

We’re all right.

我们都很好。

We have free press.”

我们有新闻自由。”

3:24:28 And then you will find yourself in this weird spot.

然后你会发现自己处于这个奇怪的地方。

The Ukrainians say you work for the Russians.

乌克兰人说你为俄罗斯人工作。

The Russians say you work for the Ukrainians.

俄罗斯人说你为乌克兰人工作。

And all this schizophrenia is something that we had to deal with for some time because it’s a very easy way to attack you.

所有这些精神分裂症都是我们必须处理一段时间的事情，因为这是攻击你的一种非常简单的方法。

At some point you don’t understand where it is coming from.

有时你不明白它来自哪里。

Is it our competitors?

是我们的竞争对手吗？

We must give credit to our competitors if it’s their invention to launch these kind of rumors because at a certain point they must have realized they can’t compete technologically on the product side, so they must do something like this.

如果是我们的竞争对手发明了这种谣言，我们必须给予赞扬，因为他们一定在某个时候意识到他们无法在产品方面进行技术竞争，所以他们必须做这样的事情。

Or it’s just governments launching these rumors, trying to discredit the platform, trying to scare their citizens away from it because they understand that their power and grip of their own country is in danger as long as they allow a pro-freedom platform to operate.

或者只是政府散布这些谣言，试图抹黑该平台，试图吓跑本国公民，因为他们知道，只要他们允许支持自由的平台运作，他们的权力和对自己国家的控制就会处于危险之中。

And through all of this, we should say over and over, that you are simply preserving the freedom of speech for all people of earth no matter what they believe, as long as they don’t call for violence, and as long as they’re not doing some of the criminal activity that we discussed, including terrorist organizing.

通过这一切，我们应该一遍又一遍地说，你们只是在维护地球上所有人的言论自由，无论他们相信什么，只要他们不呼吁暴力，只要他们不从事我们讨论过的一些犯罪活动，包括组织恐怖分子。

3:25:39 But other than that, it doesn’t matter what they believe.

但除此之外，他们相信什么并不重要。

Left-wing or right-wing, you’re just preserving their freedom of speech.

左翼或右翼，你只是维护他们的言论自由。

Do you think people of Ukraine, people of Russia and people of Iran, people of all over the world understand that despite the propaganda against you?

你认为乌克兰人民、俄罗斯人民、伊朗人民以及世界各地的人民明白这一点吗？尽管有针对您的宣传？

I think people are smart.

我认为人们很聪明。

3:26:14 Every time I meet somebody from one of these countries you mentioned in real life or people recognize me in the street, say here in Dubai, they come over, they seem incredibly grateful and understanding.

每当我在现实生活中遇到来自你提到的这些国家之一的人，或者人们在街上认出我时，比如说在迪拜，他们都会过来，他们看起来非常感激和理解。

The propaganda in each of these countries would tell them a number of things, but they learned to discount it.

这些国家的宣传都会告诉他们很多事情，但他们学会了忽视这些信息。

That’s why they’re so happy that Telegram exists is because the way they can understand the world around them is to receive conflicting, mutually exclusive viewpoints from sources that hate each other and try to understand what really is true.

这就是为什么他们对 Telegram 的存在感到如此高兴，因为他们了解周围世界的方式是从彼此仇恨的来源接收相互冲突、相互排斥的观点，并试图了解真正的真相。

Because there’s no such thing as an unbiased source of information.

因为不存在公正的信息来源。

When the war in Ukraine started in 2022, I instantly realized Telegram is going to be used to spread propaganda by both sides.

当 2022 年乌克兰战争爆发时，我立即意识到双方将使用 Telegram 进行宣传。

And I didn’t want Telegram to be used as a tool for war and publicly.

我不希望 Telegram 被用作战争和公开的工具。

I suggested maybe we should just suspend the activity of all politics-related channels in both countries for the time of the war.

我建议也许我们应该在战争期间暂停两国所有与政治相关的渠道的活动。

Maybe we shouldn’t have channels in these two countries.

也许我们不应该在这两个国家建立频道。

3:27:55 And then interestingly, people from both countries revolted against this.

有趣的是，两国人民都对此表示反抗。

They told me …

他们告诉我……

Both people in Ukraine and in Russia that I don’t get to babysit them and decide for them what sources of information that they have to be granted access to.

无论是在乌克兰还是在俄罗斯，我都无法照顾他们并为他们决定必须允许他们访问哪些信息来源。

They are grown-ups that can make these decisions for themselves.

他们是成年人，可以自己做出这些决定。

They understand that there is a lot of propaganda.

他们知道有很多宣传。

They learn to see through this propaganda.

他们学会看穿这种宣传。

They learn to be able to tell truth from lie.

他们学会了辨别真话和谎言。

And in this time of war, it was particularly available for them to receive as much information as possible because their relatives, their friends who are getting affected and are still getting affected, they want to understand what’s going on.

在这个战争时期，他们特别容易获得尽可能多的信息，因为他们的亲戚、朋友正在受到影响，并且仍在受到影响，他们想了解正在发生的事情。

At that point, when I realized people are smart, people get it, people can see through it.

那时，当我意识到人们很聪明时，人们明白了，人们能够看穿它。

If you ask most people in any of these countries, do you agree that access to Telegram should be restricted for whatever reason, they would say no.

如果你问这些国家/地区的大多数人，你是否同意出于某种原因限制对 Telegram 的访问，他们会说不。

They hunger to have a voice.

他们渴望拥有发言权。

They need a voice, and they need a place to share their opinion securely.

他们需要发声，需要一个安全地分享意见的地方。

I have to ask in the question of leadership in the Le Point interview, the journalist said that you’re often compared to Elon Musk, and you highlighted some interesting nuances around that, that you’re quite different.

我不得不问在 Le Point 采访中的领导力问题，记者说你经常被拿来与埃隆·马斯克 (Elon Musk) 进行比较，你强调了一些有趣的细微差别，你是非常不同的。

3:29:28 That Elon runs several companies at once, while you only run one.

埃隆同时经营多家公司，而你只经营一家。

And Elon can lean more on the emotional side while you deliberate and think deeply before acting.

当你在行动之前深思熟虑和深入思考时，埃隆可以更多地依靠情感方面。

Can you expand on this?

您能对此进行扩展吗？

Also there’s an interesting point that you made that everybody’s weakness is also a strength.

您还提出了一个有趣的观点，即每个人的弱点也是一种优势。

3:30:00 Same point that he made that everybody’s weakness is also a strength.

他也说过，每个人的弱点也是优点。

Everybody’s strength is also a weakness.

每个人的优点同时也是缺点。

There’s a dual nature to all our characteristics.

我们所有的特征都具有双重性。

So on the topic of Elon, what have you learned from his style of leadership?

那么，关于埃隆这个话题，你从他的领导风格中学到了什么？

What do you respect about him?

你尊重他什么？

First of all, I don’t think there is such thing as a negative personal trait.

首先，我不认为存在消极的个人特质。

3:30:20 In most cases, our bad traits and our good traits are the same trait, or at least have the same source.

在大多数情况下，我们的坏特质和好特质是相同的，或者至少有相同的来源。

Of course, there are some extreme examples, but I’d say 99% of people, if you analyze their character, their bravery can be seen and recklessness in other situations.

当然也有一些极端的例子，但是我想说99%的人，如果你分析一下他们的性格，可以看到他们在其他情况下的勇敢和鲁莽。

Depending on circumstances, you would see exactly the same personality trait and it would be either a good thing or a bad thing.

根据具体情况，你会看到完全相同的性格特征，这要么是好事，要么是坏事。

Because humanity is perfect as a whole, and each of us is different for a reason.

因为人类作为一个整体是完美的，而我们每个人都有所不同。

We have evolved to be different, to complement each other’s abilities, so that together we’re invincible.

我们已经进化得与众不同，互补彼此的能力，这样我们就所向披靡。

3:31:20 And even if you take a person as complicated as Elon, I believe that certain traits that Elon demonstrates that people criticize about him are also the sources of his strength.

即使你认为埃隆这样复杂的人，我相信埃隆表现出的某些被人们批评的特质也是他力量的源泉。

For example, his emotionality is derived from the fact that he cares about issues deeply, and he’s willing to start as many wars and as many fights as it takes to change the world in the direction that he thinks is right.

例如，他的情绪化源于他对问题的深切关心，他愿意发动尽可能多的战争、尽可能多的战斗，以改变世界朝着他认为正确的方向发展。

He also seems to be able to extract motivation from all these wars and personal conflicts, which is again, not something to be underestimated.

他似乎也能够从所有这些战争和个人冲突中提取动力，这又是不可低估的。

At a certain point in the life of a successful entrepreneur, the question of motivation starts to be the primary question.

在成功企业家生命中的某个阶段，动机问题开始成为首要问题。

If we’re talking about the richest person in the world and the most famous entrepreneur in the world, you have to wonder how does he motivate himself?

如果我们谈论的是世界上最富有的人和世界上最著名的企业家，你一定想知道他是如何激励自己的？

3:32:40 And if starting a war on X, debating certain issues or becoming personal with other CEOs, criticizing them, if these activities help Elon to innovate and start new projects, he should be doing more of it.

如果对 X 发起战争、辩论某些问题或与其他首席执行官私交、批评他们，如果这些活动有助于埃隆创新和启动新项目，他应该做更多的事情。

There’s nothing wrong in being non-agreeable.

不合意并没有什么错。

Actually, it’s one of the main traits of a successful entrepreneur, not agreeing with things.

事实上，不认同事物是成功企业家的主要特征之一。

And every time somebody like Elon, but there’s no somebody like Elon, it’s just Elon, I think, at least from the entrepreneurs I know and I personally interacted with, he’s unique in the sense that he keeps launching new things, running them in parallel, and he doesn’t seem to be stretched too thin.

每次有人像埃隆一样，但没有人像埃隆一样，我想，这只是埃隆，至少从我认识的和我个人接触过的企业家来看，他是独一无二的，因为他不断推出新事物，并行运行它们，而且他似乎并没有被拉伸得太紧。

Well, some people think he is, but he manages to still demonstrate success in all or most of his endeavors.

好吧，有些人认为他是，但他仍然设法在他的全部或大部分努力中取得成功。

So again, you can criticize Elon for being emotional, but would he be the same person without this?

再说一次，你可以批评埃隆情绪化，但如果没有这一点，他还会是同一个人吗？

I doubt that.

我对此表示怀疑。

And the incredible teams he’s motivated too.

他也激励了那些令人难以置信的球队。

3:34:11 There’s an element of that which you’ve spoken about, the team at Telegram.

你谈到的其中有一个元素，即 Telegram 的团队。

Assembling a team of A players, as we’ve talked about, is a skill in itself.

正如我们所讨论的，组建一支一流的团队本身就是一项技能。

And that’s also a big part of the leaders that we’ve discussed, it’s like judged in part by the team you assemble.

这也是我们讨论过的领导者的一个重要组成部分，这在一定程度上是由你组建的团队来评判的。

Yes.

是的。

3:34:39 And one of the necessary character features to enable that is to be ready to be unpleasant.

要实现这一点，必要的性格特征之一就是做好变得不愉快的准备。

You have to be ready to insult some people.

你必须做好侮辱某些人的准备。

If their work is inferior, you have to be ready to fire them without remorse.

如果他们的工作很差劲，你就必须准备好毫无悔意地解雇他们。

So in order to be an efficient and great entrepreneur and enrich the world of innovations, you have to do unpleasant things.

因此，为了成为一名高效、伟大的企业家并丰富创新世界，你必须做一些不愉快的事情。

Most people will shy away from it.

大多数人都会回避它。

And in a certain sense, entrepreneurs sacrifice their peace of mind in order to contribute to the world around them.

从某种意义上说，企业家牺牲了内心的平静来为周围的世界做出贡献。

And Elon is a great example of that.

埃隆就是一个很好的例子。

I have to ask you about the big picture Telegram.

我得问你关于 Telegram 的大局。

3:35:31 We’ve already talked about the fact that you own 100% of it, and there’s a lot of on the business side of it, the business structure of Telegram is fascinating.

我们已经讨论过，你拥有 100% 的股份，而且还有很多业务方面的内容，Telegram 的业务结构很有趣。

You’ve invested hundred, maybe hundreds of millions of dollars of your money.

您已经投资了数百甚至数亿美元的资金。

As far as I know, you take a salary of what, $1.

据我所知，你的工资是1美元。

One dirham is one third of that.

一迪拉姆是其中的三分之一。

One-third of a dollar.

三分之一美元。

3:36:01 And in 2024 was the first time Telegram was profitable.

2024 年，Telegram 首次实现盈利。

So one of the interesting questions here that we could talk for many hours about, but I’d love to get a high view picture.

这是一个有趣的问题，我们可以讨论很多小时，但我很想得到一张高视角的照片。

So you’ve left what I understand, what I think is a huge amount of money on the table by sticking to your principles.

所以，你留下了我所理解的、我认为的，通过坚持你的原则，可以赚到一大笔钱。

For example, not doing advertisement that’s based on user private data, which basically every social media company does.

例如，不做基于用户私人数据的广告，这基本上是每个社交媒体公司都会做的。

So the only advertisement that Telegram does is based on channels and groups, based on the topic, not the private data of the individuals.

所以 Telegram 做的唯一广告是基于频道和群组、基于主题，而不是个人的私人数据。

And the other thing is, which is also gangster and incredible, is you don’t do a news feed, which is the most addictive and engagement inducing aspect of social media, which feeds the very kind of addictive downside of the internet.

另一件事是，这也是黑帮和令人难以置信的，是你不做新闻提要，这是社交媒体最容易上瘾和吸引参与的方面，它助长了互联网令人上瘾的缺点。

3:37:02 The distraction, the engagement, drama farming aspect that we’ve talked about in the very beginning that you tried to resist, that you think is damaging the human mind at scale.

我们一开始就谈到了你试图抵制的分心、参与、戏剧性的方面，你认为这些方面正在大规模损害人类的思想。

So anyway, that’s just speaking to the fact that you’re leaving a lot of money on the table.

所以无论如何，这只是说明你留下了很多钱。

So how the hell were you able to be profitable?

那么你到底是如何能够盈利的呢？

What are the ways that Telegram makes money?

Telegram 赚钱的方式有哪些？

Yeah.

是的。

3:37:23 We had to innovate a lot in order to reach a point where we are profitable without having to resort to dubious business activities involving exploiting personal data of users, something that most of our competitors do.

我们必须进行大量创新，才能实现盈利，而不必诉诸涉及利用用户个人数据的可疑商业活动，这是我们大多数竞争对手所做的。

Because money has never been the primary goal, at least not for me.

因为金钱从来都不是首要目标，至少对我来说不是。

When I sold the remaining share of my first company and I had to do it below market price because I didn’t leave Russia completely without any pressures, I reinvested the vast majority of everything in Telegram.

当我出售第一家公司的剩余股份时，我不得不以低于市场价格的价格出售，因为我没有在没有任何压力的情况下完全离开俄罗斯，我将绝大多数资金重新投资于 Telegram。

Telegram is an operation that is losing money for me personally.

Telegram 是一项对我个人而言正在赔钱的业务。

I didn’t extract more from Telegram than I invested in it.

我从 Telegram 中获取的收益并不多于我在其中的投资。

I never sold a single share, but I also didn’t want to sell Telegram.

我从未出售过一股股票，但我也不想出售 Telegram。

So how do you reach a point when you’re profitable without sacrificing your values?

那么，如何在不牺牲价值观的情况下实现盈利呢？

3:38:40 One of the ideas we explored was a subscription model, but only for certain additional features.

我们探索的想法之一是订阅模式，但仅限于某些附加功能。

We wanted to keep all the existing features free and just add more business-related tools or tools for advanced users that they would have to pay for, say 4 or $5 a month.

我们希望保持所有现有功能免费，只添加更多与业务相关的工具或为高级用户提供的工具，他们必须为此付费，比如每月 4 或 5 美元。

It was quite unprecedented at the time.

这在当时是相当史无前例的。

It wasn’t considered a viable option for messaging apps to do that.

对于消息应用程序来说，这并不是一个可行的选择。

We launched the premium subscriptions for Telegram in 2022, and now we have over 15 million paid subscribers.

我们于 2022 年推出了 Telegram 的高级订阅，目前我们拥有超过 1500 万付费订阅者。

This is some very significant recurring revenue.

这是一些非常重要的经常性收入。

So we would receive more than half a billion dollars from premium subscriptions alone this year, and it’s growing fast.

因此，今年我们仅从高级订阅中就获得了超过 5 亿美元的收入，而且还在快速增长。

For that, we had to innovate a lot.

为此，我们必须进行大量创新。

We included over 50 different features into the premium package.

我们在高级包中包含了 50 多种不同的功能。

And then how do you make an app that is already more powerful than any other messaging app on the market, even more useful so that people would be ready to pay for this extra?

那么如何制作一款比市场上任何其他消息应用程序更强大、甚至更有用的应用程序，以便人们愿意为此额外付费呢？

That wasn’t easy.

这并不容易。

That took a lot of effort.

那花了很多功夫。

And you’re constantly adding features.

而且你不断地添加功能。

We’re constantly adding features.

我们不断添加功能。

It’s actually fun to watch just the rate of adding, and some of them are subtle, like the updates to improvements, expansions of polls, for example.

仅仅观察添加速度实际上很有趣，其中一些是微妙的，例如改进的更新、民意调查的扩展等。

Yeah.

是的。

3:40:32 So you keep improving the existing features and adding new ones.

因此，您不断改进现有功能并添加新功能。

And every time when you add a new feature, you don’t want to clutter the app.

每次添加新功能时，您都不想让应用程序变得混乱。

So in a way, they’re not in your way, they’re invisible.

所以在某种程度上，它们不会妨碍你，它们是隐形的。

That’s not an easy thing to do.

这不是一件容易的事。

And most of the features maybe are not even known to the majority of our users, but when you need them, they’re there.

大多数功能可能甚至不为我们的大多数用户所知，但当您需要它们时，它们就在那里。

So premium is one source of our revenue.

因此，溢价是我们的收入来源之一。

We also have ads, but they’re context-based, not targeted.

我们也有广告，但它们是基于上下文的，而不是有针对性的。

Of course, we leave probably 80% of value on the table because we’re not ready to engage in all this practices, exploiting personal data.

当然，我们可能会保留 80% 的价值，因为我们还没有准备好参与所有这些利用个人数据的做法。

Just to be clear, targeted ads is what most social media companies, most tech companies that do any kinds of advertisement do.

需要明确的是，有针对性的广告是大多数社交媒体公司、大多数做各种广告的科技公司所做的事情。

3:41:15 And that’s the kind of advertisement that uses personal data from users.

这就是使用用户个人数据的广告。

Just to clarify.

只是为了澄清。

And when you said 80%, that’s a lot of money.

当你说80%时，那是很多钱了。

Of course, because we would never use, for example, your personal messaging data or your context data or your metadata or your activity data to target ads.

当然，因为我们永远不会使用您的个人消息数据或您的上下文数据或您的元数据或您的活动数据来定位广告。

3:41:34 It’s sad that it became synonymous with the internet industry, this kind of exploitation.

可悲的是，它成为了互联网行业这种剥削的代名词。

But we are happy with the fact that we managed to make Telegram profitable despite that.

尽管如此，我们还是很高兴能够让 Telegram 实现盈利。

We are also experimenting a lot with blockchain-based technologies.

我们还在尝试大量基于区块链的技术。

We’re the first app to allow people to directly own their username or their digital identities using smart contracts and NFTs removing Telegram from the picture.

我们是第一个允许人们使用智能合约和 NFT 直接拥有自己的用户名或数字身份的应用程序，从而将 Telegram 从图片中删除。

So for example, Telegram cannot confiscate your username from you.

例如，Telegram 无法没收您的用户名。

It’s impossible.

这是不可能的。

We do a lot of things related to the ecosystem of Telegram.

我们做了很多与 Telegram 生态系统相关的事情。

We have a thriving mini app platform, millions of mini app developers launching their own bots and applications.

我们拥有一个蓬勃发展的迷你应用程序平台，数百万迷你应用程序开发人员推出了自己的机器人和应用程序。

So a lot of people are making millions of dollars on the Telegram platform.

所以很多人在 Telegram 平台上赚了数百万美元。

Yes.

是的。

3:42:53 We enabled them to receive payments from the users through in-app purchase mechanism provided by Apple and Google, which I think was the first attempt of this kind, to allow that both on iOS and Android on a big platform so that third-party developers of mini apps, which are basically websites so deeply integrated into Telegram that you can’t tell whether they’re standalone or they’re part of the overall experience.

我们使他们能够通过苹果和谷歌提供的应用内购买机制接收用户付款，我认为这是此类的首次尝试，允许在 iOS 和 Android 上的大平台上进行，以便迷你应用程序的第三方开发人员（基本上是网站）如此深入地集成到 Telegram 中，以至于你无法判断它们是独立的还是整体体验的一部分。

And by providing this payment option, we’re able to extract a commission from these transactions.

通过提供此付款选项，我们可以从这些交易中提取佣金。

But it’s a very low commission.

但这是一个非常低的佣金。

Presently it’s 5%.

目前是5%。

So we’re not greedy here.

所以我们在这里并不贪心。

We want people to succeed in building these tools for our users.

我们希望人们成功地为我们的用户构建这些工具。

We understand that mini apps bring us users.

我们知道迷你应用程序为我们带来了用户。

The more users we have, the more successful and relevant Telegram becomes.

我们拥有的用户越多，Telegram 就会变得越成功、越相关。

We need third-party developers.

我们需要第三方开发商。

I think at this point, Telegram gives developers by far the most powerful tools to create.

我认为在这一点上，Telegram 为开发人员提供了迄今为止最强大的创建工具。

Plus there’s a bot API.

另外还有一个机器人 API。

3:44:21 And I mean you have to tell me about the TON blockchain and the crypto ecosystem available through Telegram.

我的意思是你必须告诉我有关 TON 区块链和通过 Telegram 提供的加密生态系统的信息。

So what is TON aka The Open Network blockchain?

那么 TON 又名开放网络区块链是什么？

TON is a blockchain technology that we initially developed in 2018 and 2019, and we started to develop it because we needed a blockchain platform to be integrated deeply into Telegram because we believe in blockchain.

TON 是我们最初在 2018 年和 2019 年开发的区块链技术，我们开始开发它是因为我们需要一个区块链平台能够深度集成到 Telegram 中，因为我们相信区块链。

3:44:34 We think it’s one of the technologies that enable freedom.

我们认为这是实现自由的技术之一。

But at the time, if you look at Bitcoin, if you look at Ethereum, they were not scalable enough to cope with the load that our hundreds of millions of users would create.

但当时，如果你看看比特币，如果你看看以太坊，它们的可扩展性不足以应对我们数亿用户将产生的负载。

They would just become congested.

他们只会变得拥挤。

And I asked my brother, “Can we create a blockchain platform that would be inherently scalable so that no matter how many users or transactions there are, it would split into smaller pieces?” which we call ShardChains and would still process all transactions.

我问我的兄弟，“我们能否创建一个本质上可扩展的区块链平台，这样无论有多少用户或交易，它都会分成更小的部分？”我们称之为 ShardChains，并且仍然会处理所有交易。

And he thought for a few days and said, “Yes, it’s possible, but it’s not easy.” And we started building it.

他想了几天说：“是的，有可能，但这并不容易。”我们开始建造它。

3:45:37 We ended up succeeding in developing that technology, but we couldn’t release it because the SEC, the Securities and Exchanges Commission in the United States was unhappy with the way the fundraise for TON was conducted.

我们最终成功开发了这项技术，但我们无法发布它，因为美国证券交易委员会 (SEC) 对 TON 的融资方式不满意。

So we had to abandon the project and the open source community took over.

所以我们不得不放弃这个项目，由开源社区接手。

Luckily because we constantly conducted those contests for third-party developers, there was a thriving community around TON, which now stood for The Open Network as opposed to its prior name, Telegram Open Network.

幸运的是，由于我们不断为第三方开发者举办这些竞赛，TON 周围出现了一个蓬勃发展的社区，TON 现在代表开放网络，而不是之前的名称 Telegram 开放网络。

And so this project got eventually launched without our direct involvement.

所以这个项目最终在没有我们直接参与的情况下启动了。

And it’s thriving now because everything we do, like I said, this blockchain based tokenized user names, Telegram accounts are all based on TON and its smart contracts.

它现在正在蓬勃发展，因为我们所做的一切，就像我说的，基于区块链的代币化用户名、Telegram 账户都是基于 TON 及其智能合约。

3:46:55 It’s the only way for third-party developers and creators to withdraw the funds that they earn through our revenue sharing programs.

这是第三方开发商和创作者提取通过我们的收入分享计划赚取的资金的唯一途径。

For example, with channel owners, we do a 50-50 split of ad revenues.

例如，对于渠道所有者，我们按照 50:50 的比例分配广告收入。

It’s also the only way to transact on Telegram.

这也是在 Telegram 上进行交易的唯一方式。

For example, if you want to buy ads on Telegram, you should use TON.

例如，如果您想在 Telegram 上购买广告，您应该使用 TON。

All the new things we launch, for example, let’s say gifts that we mentioned earlier, which you can define as a reinvented socially relevant NFT integrated into a billion user ecosystem, but at the same time available on chain, transferable, which you can own directly also based on TON.

例如，我们推出的所有新事物，比如说我们之前提到的礼物，您可以将其定义为集成到十亿用户生态系统中的重新发明的与社会相关的 NFT，但同时可以在链上使用，可转让，您也可以基于 TON 直接拥有它。

Incredibly fast growing space.

增长速度令人难以置信的空间。

We only launched them half a year ago, and now as a result of this Telegram gifts, TON has become I think the largest or the second largest blockchain in terms of daily NFT trading volumes.

我们半年前才推出它们，现在由于这个 Telegram 的礼物，TON 已经成为我认为就每日 NFT 交易量而言最大或第二大的区块链。

So yeah, like you mentioned, it is a layer one technology as opposed to being built on top of Ethereum or Bitcoin and it’s able to achieve scale and the speed of transactions that’s needed for something like Telegram.

所以，是的，就像你提到的，它是一种第一层技术，而不是建立在以太坊或比特币之上，它能够实现 Telegram 等所需的规模和交易速度。

3:48:19 And like you also mentioned the gifts.

就像您也提到的礼物一样。

You recently launched some Snoop Dogg gifts.

你们最近推出了一些史努比狗狗礼物。

Is there going to be some other celebrities in the pipeline?

还会有其他名人加入吗？

Yeah, I’m a big fan of Snoop, and that’s why when they reach out, suggests to do something together, say, “Let’s launch the Snoop related gifts.” And it was really fun.

是的，我是史努比的忠实粉丝，这就是为什么当他们伸出援手时，建议一起做一些事情，比如，“让我们推出与史努比相关的礼物。”这真的很有趣。

3:48:46 We managed to sell 12 million worth of gifts within 30 minutes.

我们在 30 分钟内就卖出了价值 1200 万份礼物。

30 minutes.

30分钟。

3:49:03 Well, there you go.

好吧，就这样吧。

I even got a few.

我什至得到了一些。

But yeah.

但是是的。

After this we have many requests from many really high profile influencers that in a way are lining up.

此后，我们收到了许多非常知名的影响者的许多请求，这些请求在某种程度上正在排队。

So from my perspective as a fan, it’s just interesting to see what kind of art you create for any kind of celebrities, athletes, musicians, because the Snoop gifts are all just, going back to our previous conversation, just beautiful pieces of art that encapsulate certain memes, certain aspects of Snoop that everybody knows, these cultural icons that he represents.

因此，从我作为粉丝的角度来看，看看你为任何类型的名人、运动员、音乐家创造了什么样的艺术，这很有趣，因为史努比的礼物都只是，回到我们之前的谈话，只是美丽的艺术品，封装了某些模因，史努比每个人都知道的某些方面，以及他所代表的这些文化偶像。

3:49:19 It’s cool.

这很酷。

And the incredible detail of the art of the individual gifts is just incredible.

每件礼物的艺术细节都令人难以置信。

And each of these gifts is scalable because it’s vector based.

这些礼物中的每一个都是可扩展的，因为它是基于矢量的。

3:49:53 It references certain points in Snoop’s creative biography, and each of them has countless different versions.

它引用了史努比创意传记中的某些观点，每个观点都有无数不同的版本。

We had to create over 50 distinctive versions of each.

我们必须为每种产品创建 50 多个独特的版本。

And then each individual piece is unique because it also has unique background, unique icon and the background.

然后每件作品都是独一无二的，因为它也有独特的背景、独特的图标和背景。

It’s something that we reinvented because we didn’t like the old school NFTs.

这是我们重新发明的东西，因为我们不喜欢老式的 NFT。

First of all, they were not relevant socially because okay, you have an NFT, where do you demonstrate it?

首先，它们与社交无关，因为好吧，你有一个 NFT，你在哪里展示它？

At Telegram, a telegram gift is there next to your name.

在 Telegram，一份电报礼物就在您的名字旁边。

It’s part of your digital identity on Telegram.

它是您在 Telegram 上数字身份的一部分。

And then you can create collections of gifts and show it off on your profile page.

然后您可以创建礼物集合并在您的个人资料页面上展示。

3:50:50 But also, the other thing that we wanted to reinvent is the aesthetic part of it.

而且，我们想要重新发明的另一件事是它的美学部分。

Most NFTs are just ugly and they’re not based on any sophisticated technology.

大多数 NFT 都很丑陋，而且它们并不基于任何复杂的技术。

So what we did with Snoop’s gifts I think represents an example of beautiful, aesthetically pleasing and at the same time very accurate in terms of references to this specific artist’s biography mixture between art and technology, which I think is quite rare.

因此，我认为我们对史努比的礼物所做的事情代表了一个美丽、美观的例子，同时在参考这位特定艺术家的传记方面非常准确，将艺术与技术融为一体，我认为这是相当罕见的。

I’m quite proud of it.

我对此感到非常自豪。

I think it’s a new trend, a new phenomenon.

我认为这是一种新趋势、一种新现象。

It’s only half a year old, so let’s see where it goes.

它只有半年的历史，让我们看看它会走向何方。

We’re going to select our next influencer or artist to be part of it.

我们将选择下一位影响者或艺术家加入其中。

Hey listen, I’m really proud.

嘿听着，我真的很自豪。

3:51:51 I got a Snoop gift next to my name, and I figured out that you can add even more by pinning them.

我的名字旁边有一份史努比礼物，我发现你可以通过别针添加更多礼物。

It’s like a cool little art icon.

它就像一个很酷的小艺术图标。

We didn’t expect it, by the way.

顺便说一句，我们没想到会这样。

3:52:02 We just had a lot of fun launching these things.

我们在推出这些东西时获得了很多乐趣。

And then we realized that one of the first collections we sold each piece at something like $5.

然后我们意识到，我们在第一批系列中每件的售价约为 5 美元。

And then the minimum price of any items in this collections currently is something like $10,000.

目前该系列中任何商品的最低价格约为 10,000 美元。

And it keeps going up.

而且它还在持续上升。

So I was quite surprised with the reception.

所以我对接待感到非常惊讶。

I realized when you are trying to monetize social media platform in a way that is consistent with your values, you are forced to find ways that benefit your users, not exploit them.

我意识到，当您尝试以符合您价值观的方式通过社交媒体平台获利时，您被迫寻找有利于用户的方法，而不是剥削他们。

People love these gifts.

人们喜欢这些礼物。

People love the fact that they can congratulate a person close to them with something valuable and at the same time something beautiful.

人们喜欢这样的事实：他们可以向亲近的人赠送一些有价值的东西，同时又赠送一些美丽的东西。

Also, some people make a business out of it, which is funny.

而且，有些人还拿它来做生意，这很有趣。

They resell these gifts.

他们转售这些礼物。

We recently met a guy who earned several million dollars just from buying and selling gifts.

我们最近遇到一个人，他仅通过买卖礼物就赚了数百万美元。

It’s a real market.

这是一个真实的市场。

It’s a real market.

这是一个真实的市场。

3:53:18 It’s just something that he did in a few months.

这只是他几个月内所做的事情。

And last year when we launched many new features for the mini apps on Telegram and the payments options for them and the other monetization options, the same guy earned $12 million from mini apps.

去年，当我们在 Telegram 上为迷你应用程序推出许多新功能以及它们的支付选项和其他货币化选项时，同一个人从迷你应用程序中赚取了 1200 万美元。

And I know several people saying, “Totally, I earned $10 million.” “I earned $3 million in just a matter of months single-handedly.” Sometimes they would have a team of two, three people.

我知道有几个人会说：“我总共赚了 1000 万美元。” “我在短短几个月内就凭一己之力赚了 300 万美元。”有时他们会组成两三个人的团队。

So whenever I hear stories from people who were able to build businesses on top of Telegram, this makes me incredibly proud.

因此，每当我听到那些能够在 Telegram 上开展业务的人的故事时，我都会感到无比自豪。

And mini apps include games, they include tools, services of any kind.

迷你应用程序包括游戏、工具、任何类型的服务。

3:54:05 It’s an app within the ecosystem of Telegram.

它是 Telegram 生态系统中的一个应用程序。

Let me ask you about crypto in general.

让我问你关于加密货币的一般情况。

So you’ve been an early supporter of cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin.

所以你一直是加密货币比特币的早期支持者。

You’ve bought in into Bitcoin early on.

你很早就买入了比特币。

You kept buying.

你一直在买。

Maybe you could speak to the reasoning why you kept buying Bitcoin.

也许你可以谈谈你继续购买比特币的原因。

Do you think Bitcoin will go to a million dollars?

您认为比特币会达到一百万美元吗？

Do you think it’ll keep increasing, Bitcoin and all the other cryptocurrencies?

您认为比特币和所有其他加密货币会继续增长吗？

I was a big believer in Bitcoins since more or less the start of it.

从比特币诞生之初起，我就一直是它的忠实信徒。

3:54:40 I got to buy my first few thousands of Bitcoin in 2013, and I didn’t care much.

我在 2013 年购买了最初的几千个比特币，但我并不太在意。

I think I bought at the local maximum, it’s something like $700 per Bitcoin and I just threw a couple of millions there.

我想我是在当地最高价买入的，每个比特币大约是 700 美元，我只是在那里投入了几百万美元。

A lot of people after Bitcoin later next year, went down somewhere close to 300, 200.

明年晚些时候，很多人追随比特币，价格下跌了近 300、200。

Started to express their sympathy to me.

开始向我表达同情。

So, “Poor Pavel.

所以，“可怜的帕维尔。

You made this horrible mistake investing in this new thing, but don’t feel bad about it.

你在投资这个新事物时犯了这个可怕的错误，但不要为此感到难过。

We still have some respect for you.” And my response to them were, “I don’t care.

我们对你还是有一些尊重的。”我对他们的回应是：“我不在乎。

I’m not going to sell it.

我不会卖掉它。

I believe in this thing.

我相信这件事。

I think this is the way money should work.

我认为这就是金钱应该发挥作用的方式。

Nobody can confiscate your Bitcoin from you.

没有人可以没收你的比特币。

Nobody can censor you for political reasons.”

没有人可以出于政治原因审查你。”

3:55:52 This is the ultimate means of exchange.

这是最终的交换手段。

And again, I’m now talking about Bitcoin, but it relates to cryptocurrencies in general.

再说一次，我现在谈论的是比特币，但它与一般的加密货币有关。

So I have been able to fund my lifestyle, so to say, from my Bitcoin investment.

所以可以说，我已经能够通过我的比特币投资来维持我的生活方式。

Some people think if I’m able to rent nice locations or fly private, it’s because I somehow extract money from Telegram.

有些人认为，如果我能够租到好地方或乘坐私人飞机，那是因为我以某种方式从 Telegram 中获取了钱。

Like I said, Telegram is a money losing operation for me personally.

就像我说的，Telegram 对我个人来说是一个赔钱的业务。

Bitcoin is something that allowed me to stay afloat.

比特币让我得以维持生计。

And I believe it will come to a point when Bitcoin is worth $1 million.

我相信比特币的价值将会达到 100 万美元。

Just look at the trends.

只要看看趋势即可。

The governments keep printing money like no tomorrow.

政府不断印钞，就像没有明天一样。

Nobody’s printing Bitcoin.

没有人印刷比特币。

There is a predictable inflation and then it stops at a certain point.

通货膨胀是可预测的，然后在某个点停止。

Bitcoin is here to stay.

比特币将继续存在。

All the fiat currencies, remains to be seen.

所有法定货币，还有待观察。

Let me ask you a deeply philosophical serious question.

让我问你一个深刻的哲学问题。

3:57:13 In your first Telco interview, you had two interesting chairs in the background.

在你第一次接受电信公司采访时，背景中有两把有趣的椅子。

I think they reference a now legendary meme.

我认为他们参考了现在的传奇模因。

The choice is Пики точёные или хуи дрочёные (Russian: “Sharpened pikes or jerked-off cocks.”) What is the philosophical wisdom in the dilemma that these two chairs present?

选择是 Пики точёные или хуи дрочёные （俄语：“削尖的长矛或抽搐的公鸡。”）这两把椅子所呈现的困境中的哲学智慧是什么？

Have you had to face the dilemma yourself personally?

您是否必须亲自面对这个困境？

Not this exact dilemma.

不是这个确切的困境。

3:57:37 I think this is a riddle that people have to face in Russian prisons.

我想这是俄罗斯监狱里的人们不得不面对的一个谜。

And metaphorically, it’s describing all the situations where you’re presented a choice between two suboptimal options.

打个比方，它描述了所有让你在两个次优选项之间做出选择的情况。

When you’re running a big business or when you’re running a large country, it is similar.

当你经营一家大企业或经营一个大国时，情况是相似的。

You sometimes face this dilemma, what are you going to do, this very horrible thing or this also very horrible thing?

有时你会面临这样的困境，你要做什么，这是一件非常可怕的事情还是这同样非常可怕的事情？

So I think the right answer to this riddle is not to do any of these things.

所以我认为这个谜题的正确答案是不要做任何这些事情。

Reframe the question, design a solution that turns a disadvantage into an advantage and then use it to cope with the other side of the problem.

重新思考问题，设计一个解决方案，将劣势转化为优势，然后用它来解决问题的另一面。

So do you know the answer to that riddle?

那么你知道这个谜语的答案吗？

No.

不。

3:58:44 Somebody on the internet said, “Не ходи туда, где задают такие вопросы”, which is basically try to avoid the situations where such dilemmas present themselves or there is no right answer.

网上有人说“Не ходи туда, где задают такие вопросы”，这基本上是试图避免出现此类困境或没有正确答案的情况。

This is one of the ways to answer this question.

这是回答这个问题的方法之一。

3:59:02 If you got to a tricky situation that probably earlier you made a certain mistake-

如果你遇到了一个棘手的情况，可能之前你犯了某个错误-

You fucked up already.

你已经完蛋了

Should have been avoided.

本来应该避免的。

3:59:12 But the other quite creative answer to this question is that you take the sharp objects from one of the chairs, or the spikes and then they use them to cut off the objects from the other chair.

但这个问题的另一个非常有创意的答案是，你从一把椅子上取下锋利的物体或尖刺，然后他们用它们从另一把椅子上切掉物体。

And you know what objects I’m talking about?

你知道我说的是什么物体吗？

That’s a very engineering solution.

这是一个非常工程化的解决方案。

3:59:38 I’m glad somebody came up with that.

我很高兴有人想出了这个办法。

I believe this is the right answer.

我相信这是正确的答案。

3:59:43 We’re often being manipulated by politicians, by corporate leaders to make a choice from two suboptimal options.

我们经常被政客、企业领导人操纵，从两个次优的选项中做出选择。

And then when we are forced to make this choice and we make this choice, it’s almost as if it’s something that we have to assume responsibility for.

然后，当我们被迫做出这个选择并且我们做出这个选择时，就好像我们必须为此承担责任。

I don’t think we should be buying into that.

我认为我们不应该相信这一点。

Okay.

好的。

4:00:12 And this theme of absurdity and ridiculousness, there’s an object here that appeared in…

而这个荒诞可笑的主题，这里有一个物体出现在……

Not many people seem to have noticed this.

似乎没有多少人注意到这一点。

People should go watch your excellent conversation in the Oslo Freedom Forum.

人们应该去观看您在奥斯陆自由论坛上的精彩对话。

Behind you, I’m no archeologist, but I believe this is a, how should I put it, a walrus penis bone, and it was behind you.

在你身后，我不是考古学家，但我相信这是一块，怎么说呢，一块海象阴茎骨，它就在你身后。

You told me that you brought it with you to France and back to Dubai.

你告诉我你把它带到了法国并带回了迪拜。

I assume it brings you luck of some sort.

我想它会给你带来某种幸运。

Why did you bring it with you everywhere?

你为什么到处都带着它？

4:01:00 Is it kind of like in America they have a wishbone?

就像在美国他们有叉骨一样吗？

Is it just a large wishbone?

它只是一个大叉骨吗？

Because the wishbone brings you luck.

因为叉骨会给你带来好运。

And I should also point out that just like with Telegram, with the art, there’s tiny little walruses.

我还应该指出，就像 Telegram 和艺术一样，也有微小的海象。

And thanks to you, I had to also find out that a lot of mammals have a bone inside their penis.

多亏了你，我还必须发现许多哺乳动物的阴茎内都有骨头。

And the evolutionary advantage, I guess, of having a bone is quite obvious.

我想，拥有骨头的进化优势是相当明显的。

It actually raises the question of why humans don’t have a actual bone inside their penis.

这实际上提出了一个问题：为什么人类的阴茎内没有真正的骨头。

A lot of questions there.

那里有很多问题。

That’s a very interesting subject.

这是一个非常有趣的话题。

4:01:31 The reason I have this is because the tribe that is almost gone and extinct in Siberia and Mongolia called Evenki, passed me this gift from them.

我之所以有这个，是因为在西伯利亚和蒙古几乎消失和灭绝的鄂温克部落，把他们的这份礼物传给了我。

Normally they would craft something like this only for their most respected leaders.

通常他们只会为他们最尊敬的领导人制作这样的东西。

It is supposed to be a token of their appreciation for bravery, courage, leadership.

它应该是他们对勇敢、勇气和领导力的赞赏的象征。

Ironically, it also translates in a very specific way into the Russian language.

讽刺的是，它还以一种非常具体的方式翻译成俄语。

In Russian, walrus’s penis means something a bit funny, which is often used to describe nothing.

在俄语中，海象的阴茎有一些有趣的意思，通常用来形容什么都没有。

So for example, if you’re being requested by say certain government or a certain business partner to provide something that you’re not willing to provide, you can just politely have this penis bone in the background while you’re doing the video call and hope then they would.

例如，如果某个政府或某个业务合作伙伴要求您提供您不愿意提供的东西，您可以在进行视频通话时礼貌地将阴茎骨放在背景中，并希望他们会这样做。

Through osmosis figure out the deep message.

通过渗透找出深层信息。

4:02:52 It is an indirect rebellion.

这是一种间接的叛逆。

By the way, in the former Soviet Union, there was, and a lot of places throughout history, some of the rebellion had to take this kind of symbolic, metaphoric form through poetry, through children’s stories.

顺便说一句，在前苏联，历史上有很多地方，一些叛乱必须通过诗歌、儿童故事采取这种象征性、隐喻的形式。

It’s the beauty of the human language and art that we’re able to do that, say F-U, to whatever forces that try to overpower us.

人类语言和艺术的美妙之处在于，我们能够对任何试图压倒我们的力量做到这一点，说F-U。

We say F-U through poetry, through art, and sometimes through a rather large walrus penis bone carried by what appears to be either a happy sumo wrestler or a cat of some sort.

我们通过诗歌，通过艺术，有时通过一个相当大的海象阴茎骨来说“F-U”，该阴茎骨似乎是一个快乐的相扑选手或某种猫。

They asked a lot of questions about this walrus’s penis bone in the airport, both here in the UAE and in France, they are always very interested in this thing.

他们在机场问了很多关于这只海象阴茎骨的问题，无论是在阿联酋还是在法国，他们总是对这个东西很感兴趣。

There seems to be some confusion over how many kids you have.

对于您有多少个孩子似乎有些困惑。

4:03:53 It’s often said to be over 100.

人们常说超过100。

Can you explain how many kids you have?

你能解释一下你有多少个孩子吗？

The truthful answer to this question is I don’t really know how many biological kids I have exactly.

这个问题的真实答案是我真的不知道我到底有多少个亲生孩子。

4:04:06 Because at a certain point in my life, about 15 years ago, I decided that it was a good idea to be a sperm donor.

因为在我生命中的某个时刻，大约 15 年前，我决定成为一名精子捐献者是个好主意。

Initially, a friend of mine asked me to help because they were trying to have a baby with his wife, and they experienced certain health issues that prevented them to do the natural way.

最初，我的一个朋友请我帮忙，因为他们想和他的妻子生孩子，但他们遇到了某些健康问题，无法以自然的方式生孩子。

And he asked me, he told me, “We don’t want to just rely on some random anonymous genetic material.

他问我，他告诉我，“我们不想仅仅依赖一些随机的匿名遗传物质。

We want somebody we know and respect to be the biological father of our kid.” And I said, “You got to be kidding me.

我们希望我们认识并尊敬的人成为我们孩子的亲生父亲。”我说：“你一定是在开玩笑吧。

Sounds ridiculous.

听起来很荒谬。

What are we even talking about?”

我们到底在谈论什么？”

4:05:00 …

……

I mean, sounds ridiculous.

我的意思是，听起来很荒谬。

What are they even talking about?

他们到底在谈论什么？

But then I realized it’s actually a serious issue, and they were not the only couple struggling with that.

但后来我意识到这实际上是一个严重的问题，而且他们并不是唯一为此苦苦挣扎的夫妇。

So eventually, I got persuaded into doing more of it.

所以最终，我被说服去做更多的事情。

I can’t say I am incredibly proud of that, but I think it was the right thing to do, particularly at the time when I thought, “Okay, I probably don’t have much time on this planet left.

我不能说我为此感到无比自豪，但我认为这是正确的做法，特别是当我想“好吧，我在这个星球上的时间可能不多了。

Things are getting trickier and trickier.

事情变得越来越棘手。

So if I can help some couples have babies, let’s do it.”

所以，如果我能帮助一些夫妇生孩子，我们就这么做吧。”

4:05:37 And then more recently, when I was working on my will, I realized that I shouldn’t make a distinction between the kids conceived naturally and the kids who are just my biological kids that I never seen.

最近，当我在制定遗嘱时，我意识到我不应该区分自然受孕的孩子和我从未见过的亲生孩子。

As long as they can establish their shared DNA with me someday, maybe in 30 years from now, they have to be entitled for a share of my estate after I’m gone.

只要有一天，也许是 30 年后，他们能够与我建立起共同的 DNA，他们就必须有权在我去世后分享我的遗产。

And that made a lot of noise in the news for some reason.

由于某种原因，这在新闻中引起了很大的轰动。

People get very excited by this kind of news.

人们对这样的消息感到非常兴奋。

I get a lot of messages from people claiming they’re my kids.

我收到很多人发来的消息，声称他们是我的孩子。

I get a lot of requests from people asking me to adopt them.

我收到很多人的请求，要求我收养它们。

The memes were priceless.

这些模因是无价的。

But understanding that it’s not a thing that most people do, I don’t see anything wrong with it.

但我知道这不是大多数人都会做的事情，因此我认为这没有什么问题。

If anything, I think more people should be donating sperm.

如果有的话，我认为应该有更多的人捐献精子。

So we should say, the 100-plus kids is from that.

所以我们应该说，这100多个孩子就是从那里来的。

4:06:52 You also have naturally conceived kids.

您也有自然受孕的孩子。

It was a pretty bold decision from a financial perspective to treat them all equally.

从财务角度来看，平等对待他们所有人是一个相当大胆的决定。

And also quite interesting was that you said that they don’t receive any money for the first few decades of their life.

另外很有趣的是，你说他们在生命的前几十年里没有收到任何钱。

Can you describe that thinking?

你能描述一下这种想法吗？

Yeah, I think overabundance paralyzes motivation and willpower.

是的，我认为过多会削弱动力和意志力。

4:07:24 It’s extremely harmful, particularly for young boys, to grow up in an environment where they can be proud, not of their own achievements, but of their father’s achievements or their father’s wealth.

在一个他们可以为自己的成就而不是为父亲的成就或父亲的财富感到自豪的环境中长大，尤其是对年轻男孩来说，这是极其有害的。

This removes the incentive to work on developing their own skills, removes the incentive to study, to work.

这消除了他们发展自身技能、学习和工作的动力。

So I thought if they’re going to have this money, it should be something that they would only get when they’re already adult.

所以我想，如果他们要拥有这笔钱，那应该是他们成年后才能得到的东西。

It’s still risky, but one of the reasons I decided it makes more sense to divide this huge wealth that I’m likely to leave behind among a hundred or more than a hundred people is that it won’t be too much for every single descendant.

这仍然有风险，但我认为将我可能留下的这笔巨额财富分配给一百或一百多人更有意义的原因之一是，这对每个后代来说都不会太多。

But at the same time, some people did the calculation, it’s still many, many millions of dollars for each child, so I’m not sure it helps too much.

但与此同时，有些人做了计算，每个孩子仍然有很多很多百万美元，所以我不确定这有多大帮助。

On the topic of abundance, offline we had a lot of fascinating philosophical discussions.

关于丰富的话题，我们在线下进行了很多有趣的哲学讨论。

4:09:12 One of which was about the mouse paradise experiment, also known as Universe 25.

其中之一是关于老鼠天堂实验，也称为第 25 宇宙。

It’s an experiment from the 1960s and early ’70s conducted by ethologist John B.

这是 20 世纪 60 年代和 70 年代初由动物行为学家 John B.

Calhoun.

卡尔霍恩。

We can talk about this one for hours also, I’m sure.

我确信我们也可以花几个小时讨论这个问题。

But it was an experiment with a few hundreds of individual mice compartments, and they provided them with unlimited food, water nesting, no predators, stable temperatures, and frequent cleaning.

但这是一个有数百只小鼠单独隔间的实验，他们为它们提供了无限的食物、水筑巢、没有捕食者、稳定的温度和频繁的清洁。

Basically the definition of abundance as far as mice go.

基本上，这就是小鼠丰度的定义。

4:09:56 The interesting aspect of this experiment is that at first the population doubled, it grew very quickly.

这个实验的有趣之处在于，一开始人口数量翻了一番，而且增长得非常快。

But then it leveled off, and certain really negative social things started happening, like mothers neglected to kill their young, violent attacks, and hypersexual activity became widespread.

但随后情况趋于平稳，某些真正负面的社会事件开始发生，比如母亲忽视杀死自己的孩子，暴力袭击，性欲亢进的活动变得普遍。

Some “beautiful” ones, largely inactive, well-groomed mice withdrew, refusing to mate or interact.

一些“漂亮”的老鼠，基本上不活跃，精心打扮的老鼠退出了，拒绝交配或互动。

So all of these kind of societal qualities that we see as negative from the functioning of a society started to emerge because of the abundance.

因此，所有这些我们认为对社会运作不利的社会品质都因为物质的丰富而开始出现。

And finally, the collapse.

最后，崩溃。

The reproduction rates crashed, social dysfunction spread to the next generation, and eventually just went extinct.

繁殖率急剧下降，社会功能障碍蔓延到下一代，最终灭绝。

It didn’t just plummet to a low level, it plummeted steadily to zero despite the fact that those ongoing resource abundance.

尽管资源持续丰富，但它不仅暴跌至较低水平，而且稳步暴跌至零。

As this description states, the last mouse died surrounded by untouched food and water.

正如描述所述，最后一只老鼠死时周围都是未曾接触过的食物和水。

I mean, there’s deep wisdom to that about abundance.

我的意思是，关于丰富，有深刻的智慧。

You’ve mentioned this in different contexts throughout this conversation, is it seems like scarcity.

您在整个谈话中在不同的背景下提到了这一点，这似乎是稀缺性的。

It seems like constraints.

看起来像是限制。

It seems like non-abundance is essential for human flourishing, which is a counterintuitive notion.

似乎非富足对于人类的繁荣至关重要，这是一个违反直觉的概念。

It’s true for mice, and I think it’s probably true for humans too.

对于老鼠来说是这样，我想对于人类来说也可能是这样。

We have evolved to overcome scarcity.

我们已经进化到克服稀缺性。

4:11:27 Almost by definition, there has never been such thing as infinite amount of food or entertainment in our lives before now.

几乎按照定义，我们的生活中从来没有出现过无限量的食物或娱乐。

We seem as a species to lose our ability to identify purpose in the world where you have everything and everything loses its meaning.

作为一个物种，我们似乎失去了在这个世界上识别目标的能力，在这个世界上你拥有一切，但一切都失去了意义。

Restrictions are important.

限制很重要。

I think though that they should be coming from within.

但我认为它们应该来自内部。

It should be self-restriction rather than a restriction in order to create purpose and meaning in life.

为了创造生活的目的和意义，它应该是自我限制，而不是限制。

In a way, I was lucky in a very counterintuitive way because I grew up poor.

从某种意义上说，我很幸运，因为我出身贫穷，这与我的直觉非常相反。

I didn’t have money when I was a teenager.

我十几岁的时候没有钱。

I had the same jacket for years, which was bought on a secondhand marketplace.

我多年来一直拥有这件夹克，是在二手市场上买的。

My father wouldn’t receive his salary as a university professor for months because the Russian state was almost bankrupt back then.

我父亲几个月都拿不到大学教授的薪水，因为当时俄罗斯国家几乎破产了。

My mom had to juggle two jobs to take care of us.

我妈妈不得不兼顾两份工作来照顾我们。

It was not easy, but it also created purpose.

这并不容易，但它也创造了目标。

It created meaning.

它创造了意义。

It created priorities.

它创造了优先事项。

It allowed us to focus on things that mattered, allowed us to develop our character and intellectual abilities.

它让我们能够专注于重要的事情，让我们能够发展我们的性格和智力。

4:13:17 Now, if we had everything, why do anything?

现在，如果我们拥有一切，为什么还要做任何事情呢？

These mice suffered societal collapse that was irreversible, and this is not an accident.

这些老鼠遭受了不可逆转的社会崩溃，这并非偶然。

This kind of experiment has been repeated countless times.

这样的实验已经重复了无数次。

At a certain point, social dysfunction and the erosion of social roles becomes contagious, and the society gradually degrades into a chaotic collection of individuals unable to take care of the next generation or even to produce the next generation, and it goes extinct.

到了一定程度，社会功能失调和社会角色的侵蚀就会传染，社会逐渐退化为一个混乱的个体集合体，无法照顾下一代，甚至无法产生下一代，从而走向灭绝。

It’s fascinating because we’re creating technologies and this is what AI is proposing to our future generations as a problem to solve, which is, AI may very well create abundance.

这很有趣，因为我们正在创造技术，而这正是人工智能向我们的子孙后代提出的一个需要解决的问题，也就是说，人工智能很可能会创造丰富的东西。

4:14:14 So we will be like these mice potentially.

所以我们可能会像这些老鼠一样。

Whether it’s AI or other kinds of technologies, they increasingly give more and more to all of us.

无论是人工智能还是其他类型的技术，它们都为我们所有人带来了越来越多的东西。

And it is a thing that is good: decrease the amount of suffering in the world, increase the quality of life.

这是一件好事：减少世界上的痛苦，提高生活质量。

But as we reach towards that abundance, the fabric that connects us, rooted in our biology that’s developed by evolution, it might create a real challenge for us.

但当我们达到这种丰富性时，这种连接我们的结构，根植于我们通过进化发展起来的生物学，它可能会给我们带来真正的挑战。

We should find the right balance between chaos and order, between self-restriction and freedom for creativity.

我们应该在混乱与秩序、自我限制与创造力自由之间找到适当的平衡。

Your father recently celebrated his 80th birthday.

你父亲最近庆祝了他的 80 岁生日。

4:15:03 You had a conversation with him.

你和他有过交谈。

He gave you some life advice.

他给了你一些人生建议。

I think you mentioned to me one of the things he said was not to just speak of your principles, but to live them, to lead by example.

我想你向我提到过他所说的一件事，不仅仅是谈论你的原则，而是践行这些原则，以身作则。

I think this is something you already do well.

我认为这是你已经做得很好的事情。

Maybe can you speak to what you’ve learned about life from your father, maybe some of the lessons he told you in the conversation you’ve had with him on his birthday.

也许你能谈谈你从你父亲那里学到的关于生活的东西，也许是他在他生日那天与他的谈话中告诉你的一些教训。

I’m incredibly lucky to have my father.

我非常幸运有我的父亲。

4:15:40 He’s a person who wrote countless books on Ancient Rome and Ancient Roman literature, dozens of scientific papers, and I always remember him working.

他写了无数关于古罗马和古罗马文学的书籍，发表了数十篇科学论文，我一直记得他的工作。

He would be busy typing his books and articles in an old-school typewriter back in the late ’80s, early ’90s.

早在 80 年代末、90 年代初，他就忙着用老式打字机打字他的书籍和文章。

He was relentless.

他是无情的。

The example he said to myself and my brother was priceless.

他对我和我兄弟说的例子是无价的。

Some people make this mistake of thinking that you can instill the right principles in the future generation or into your kids by saying things to them, but kids are smart.

有些人错误地认为，你可以通过对下一代或你的孩子说一些话来向他们灌输正确的原则，但孩子是聪明的。

They discount words, they look at the actions.

他们不重视言语，只注重行动。

So observing our father was a big lesson by itself.

因此，观察我们的父亲本身就是一个很大的教训。

It wasn’t necessary for him to say anything to us.

他没有必要对我们说什么。

And then at the same time, he was incredibly patient, emotionally resilient.

与此同时，他又非常有耐心，情绪上也很坚韧。

4:17:06 My mom, great woman, incredibly smart, highly educated, but she would sometimes try to test the patience of my father.

我的妈妈，伟大的女人，非常聪明，受过高等教育，但她有时会试图考验我父亲的耐心。

It’s a trait rooted in our biology.

这是植根于我们生物学的特征。

There’s an evolutionary explanation for that.

对此有一个进化论的解释。

Women sometimes tend to do that, and he demonstrated incredible patience all the time.

女人有时倾向于这样做，而他一直表现出令人难以置信的耐心。

He told me recently, “You shouldn’t give the wrong example to the people around you and in particular to your kids, because you can do the right thing nine times out of 10, but you make a mistake once, and they will instantly copy it.

他最近告诉我，“你不应该给周围的人，特别是你的孩子树立错误的榜样，因为你十有八九可以做正确的事，但你一旦犯错，他们就会立即效仿。

If you’re telling your kids not to use a smartphone, but you’re using a smartphone all the time yourself, and coming up with all kinds of sophisticated, brilliant explanations why they shouldn’t be using a smartphone, it won’t land.

如果你告诉你的孩子不要使用智能手机，但你自己却一直在使用智能手机，并想出各种复杂而精彩的解释为什么他们不应该使用智能手机，那么它不会落地。

It’s bound to fail.

它注定会失败。

So you lead by example.”

所以你要以身作则。”

4:18:19 There are other numerous lessons: staying positive, looking at the bright side, never despair, be honest.

还有其他许多教训：保持积极，看到光明的一面，永不绝望，诚实。

He told me last time I spoke to him that AI can have consciousness, can be creative, but it cannot have conscience in a way.

上次我和他谈话时他告诉我，人工智能可以有意识，可以有创造力，但在某种程度上它不能有良心。

It cannot be moral.

这不可能是道德的。

It cannot have deeply rooted principles.

它不可能有根深蒂固的原则。

It cannot have integrity in the meaning that we understand it as human beings.

它不可能具有我们作为人类所理解的意义上的完整性。

I love the fact that you’re talking to your 80-year- old father, and you’re talking about AGI and the difference between human, the human spirit, human nature, and what AGI, AI is able to achieve.

我喜欢你和 80 岁的父亲交谈，谈论 AGI 以及人类、人类精神、人性之间的差异，以及 AGI、AI 能够实现的目标。

4:18:57 And conscience is the thing that humans have, the ability to know the right from wrong.

良心是人类所拥有的东西，是辨别是非的能力。

This is the lesson that he gave me.

这是他给我的教训。

4:19:23 One of my goals in life is never to disappoint him.

我人生的目标之一就是永远不让他失望。

Another thing we’ve talked about, which I think is a fascinating topic, is the power of the mind, power of thought.

我们谈论的另一件事是心灵的力量，思想的力量，我认为这是一个令人着迷的话题。

4:19:33 Do you believe you can affect your life and reality by thinking about it, by manifesting it into being?

你相信你可以通过思考、将其体现出来来影响你的生活和现实吗？

What do you think?

你怎么认为？

There are many explanations why it works.

为什么它有效有很多解释。

4:19:55 One thing most people agree on is that setting goals and staying positive and confident does allow you to achieve the things you want to achieve.

大多数人都同意的一件事是，设定目标并保持积极和自信确实可以让您实现您想要实现的目标。

It’s very hard to believe though that you can just manifest things into being without applying effort in the direction that seems to be logical.

然而，很难相信你可以将事物显化为现实，而无需沿着看似合乎逻辑的方向付出努力。

Maybe some people exist that can just sit on the bank of a river and materialize things by the power of their thought.

也许存在一些人，可以坐在河岸上，通过他们的思想的力量来实现事物。

But I’m not sure I’m one of these people.

但我不确定我是这些人中的一员。

I always found it more easy to believe that if you couple this optimism and faith with logical action, then it is bound to be successful.

我总是发现更容易相信，如果你将这种乐观和信念与逻辑行动结合起来，那么它一定会成功。

Prolonged effort, hard work, coupled with positive focus, thinking about the thing.

长期的努力、辛勤的工作，再加上积极的专注、对事情的思考。

Oh yes, over many, many, many days.

哦，是的，很多很多很多天。

4:21:13 It’s possible to imagine our world as a high dimensional universe where humans have the ability to navigate through it with the power of belief, which is coupled with positive emotion and logical thinking.

可以将我们的世界想象成一个高维宇宙，人类有能力凭借信念的力量在其中航行，再加上积极的情感和逻辑思维。

But we are getting into an esoteric realm.

但我们正在进入一个深奥的领域。

We don’t have any proof of that.

我们没有任何证据证明这一点。

But we also know that we probably at this point haven’t discovered even 1% about this universe.

但我们也知道，我们目前可能还没有发现这个宇宙的 1%。

I agree with you fully, and I like what you said in the way you were thinking about it.

我完全同意你的观点，我喜欢你所说的和你思考的方式。

4:22:00 You’ve told me before that maybe there’s a way that with effort and with the focused mind, you can shape, you can morph the landscape of probabilities around you.

你之前告诉过我，也许有一种方法，通过努力和专注，你可以塑造、改变你周围的概率景观。

It’s a nice way to visualize it, that somehow our effort and our focus changes the things that are likely and less likely.

这是一种很好的可视化方式，我们的努力和焦点以某种方式改变了可能发生和不太可能发生的事情。

And by focusing on it, we make the thing more and more likely, at least as an estimate, as the kind of field that we, through our thoughts and through our actions, change that field.

通过关注它，我们使事情变得越来越有可能，至少作为一种估计，作为我们通过我们的思想和行动改变该领域的那种领域。

And then there’s eight billion of us doing so, and together there’s this collective intelligence that creates the world we see around us like the mice.

然后我们有八十亿人这样做，集体智慧共同创造了我们周围看到的世界，就像老鼠一样。

Like you said, us as a humanity together are perfect.

就像你说的，我们作为一个人类在一起是完美的。

I like that you said that.

我喜欢你这么说。

I admire your belief in the fact that we get to experience this together because it’s not obvious.

我很钦佩你相信我们能够一起经历这一点，因为这并不明显。

4:23:05 Maybe each of us experiences his own or her own universe, and maybe every second of the universe splits into a billion of different universes, and everything that can happen happens.

也许我们每个人都经历着自己的宇宙，也许宇宙的每一秒都分裂成十亿个不同的宇宙，一切可能发生的事情都会发生。

And there is a universe where, say, I died in 2013.

比如说，有一个宇宙，我在 2013 年去世了。

Maybe every time I die, I actually get to shift to a parallel universe when I don’t die.

也许每次我死后，当我没有死时，我实际上都会转移到平行宇宙。

And then it keeps going, and at certain points we achieve this quantum immortality when we’re 1,000 years old, but a lot of people from other versions of reality think we’re long gone.

然后它继续下去，在某些时候，当我们1000岁的时候，我们就实现了这种量子永生，但很多来自其他现实版本的人认为我们早已消失了。

Yeah.

是的。

4:24:04 This is something you explained to me, the idea of quantum immortality, which is a thought experiment, which I find deeply fascinating, people should look into it, which is very crisp, clean consequence of the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics that we as conscious beings can’t experience our death.

这是你向我解释的，量子永生的想法，这是一个思想实验，我觉得它非常有趣，人们应该研究它，这是量子力学的许多世界解释的非常清晰、干净的结果，我们作为有意识的生物无法经历我们的死亡。

As we branch into these many worlds, only the living consciousnesses get to experience it.

当我们分支进入如此多的世界时，只有活着的意识才能体验到它。

So in some sense, yeah, there’s many universes.

所以从某种意义上说，是的，有很多宇宙。

If we were to seriously take the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, there’s many universes where you died many times, especially you, and I’m glad we’re in the universe where we get to share the table with this impressive bone, a little humor, and a lot of serious topics covered today.

如果我们要认真对待量子力学的多世界解释，就会发现在很多宇宙中你都死过很多次，尤其是你，我很高兴我们在这个宇宙中，我们可以与这个令人印象深刻的骨头、一点幽默和今天讨论的许多严肃话题分享桌子。

Once again, I can’t say enough.

我再一次说得不够。

Again, thank you from me.

再次感谢我。

Again, thank you from hundreds of millions of people that follow your work, for you fighting for the freedom of all of us to speak and creating a platform where we can do so.

再次感谢关注您工作的数亿人，感谢你们为我们所有人的言论自由而奋斗，并为我们创造了一个可以这样做的平台。

Thank you so much for talking today, brother.

非常感谢你今天的发言，兄弟。

It’s been an honor getting to know you and to be able to call you a friend.

很荣幸认识你并能够称你为朋友。

Thank you for saying that.

谢谢你这么说。

4:25:22 I’m also incredibly grateful to you and to the fact that I happened to be in this version of reality when I haven’t died, at least yet, and hopefully we’ll get to spend more fun moments in the years to come together.

我也非常感谢你，也感谢我在还没有死的时候碰巧处于这个现实版本中，至少还没有，希望我们能在未来的岁月里度过更多有趣的时刻。

Thank you, brother.

谢谢你，兄弟。

4:25:45 Thank you for listening to this conversation with Pavel Durov.

感谢您收听与帕维尔·杜罗夫的对话。

To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description.

为了支持这个播客，请在说明中查看我们的赞助商。

Now, let me try to articulate some things I’ve been thinking about.

现在，让我尝试阐明我一直在思考的一些事情。

If you’d like to submit questions or topics like this for me to talk about in the future, go to lexfridman.com/ama.

如果您想提交此类问题或主题供我将来讨论，请访问 lexfridman.com/ama。

4:26:05 I’d like to use this opportunity to talk about Franz Kafka, one of my favorite writers.

我想利用这个机会谈谈弗朗茨·卡夫卡，我最喜欢的作家之一。

The reason he has been on my mind is that his work The Trial and the case of Pavel Durov in France has, let’s say, eerie parallels, both metaphorically and literally.

他一直在我脑海中的原因是他的作品《审判》和法国帕维尔·杜罗夫的案件，可以说，无论是隐喻还是字面上都有令人毛骨悚然的相似之处。

Of course, The Trial is a work of fiction, but I think it is often useful to go to the surreal world of literature, even over-the-top dystopian variety like 1984, Animal Farm, Brave New World, The Trial, The Castle Metamorphosis, even The Plague by Albert Camus, all to understand our real world and the destructive paths we have the potential to go down together, which also hopefully helps us understand how to avoid doing so.

当然，《审判》是一部虚构作品，但我认为，去超现实的文学世界，甚至是像《1984》、《动物庄园》、《美丽新世界》、《审判》、《城堡变形》，甚至阿尔贝·加缪的《鼠疫》这样的极端反乌托邦作品，通常都是有用的，所有这些都有助于了解我们的现实世界和我们可能一起走上的破坏性道路，这也希望能帮助我们了解如何避免这样做。

4:26:55 So let me zoom out and speak about Franz Kafka.

让我把镜头拉远，谈谈弗朗茨·卡夫卡。

Who was he?

他是谁？

He was an insurance clerk who wrote at night.

他是一名晚上写作的保险职员。

He died young and almost completely unknown, and he asked for his manuscripts to be burned.

他英年早逝，几乎无人知晓，他要求烧毁他的手稿。

Luckily for us, his friend, Max Brod refused to do so, giving us the work of what I consider to be one of 20th century’s greatest writers.

对我们来说幸运的是，他的朋友马克斯·布罗德拒绝这样做，给了我们我认为是 20 世纪最伟大作家之一的作品。

In his work, Kafka wrote about the cold machine-like reduction of humans to case files through the labyrinth of institutional power.

卡夫卡在他的作品中写到，人类像冷酷的机器一样，通过机构权力的迷宫被简化为案件档案。

He wrote about an individual’s feeling of guilt even when a crime has not been committed, or more generally, he wrote about the feeling of anxiety that is part of the human condition in our modern, chaotic world.

他写了一个人即使没有犯罪的内疚感，或者更一般地说，他写了焦虑感，这是我们现代混乱世界中人类状况的一部分。

4:27:42 His writing style was to use short, declarative sentences to describe the surreal and the absurd, and in so doing, effectively, I think, convey the feeling of an experience versus simply describing the experience.

他的写作风格是使用简短的陈述性句子来描述超现实和荒谬，我认为这样做可以有效地传达一种体验的感觉，而不是简单地描述这种体验。

For example, famously, his work, The Metamorphosis, opens with the following lines, “As Gregor Samsa awoke one morning from uneasy dreams, he found himself transformed in his bed into a gigantic insect.

例如，他著名的作品《变形记》以以下几行开头：“一天早上，当格雷戈尔·萨姆沙从不安的梦中醒来时，他发现自己在床上变成了一只巨大的昆虫。

He was lying in his hard armor-plated back, and when he lifted his head a little, he could see his dome-like brown belly divided into stiff arched segments, on top of which, the bed-quilt could hardly keep in position and was about to slide off completely.

他躺在坚硬的铠甲背上，稍稍抬起头，就能看到圆顶般的棕色腹部被分割成僵硬的拱形部分，上面的被子几乎无法固定，眼看就要完全滑落。

His numerous legs, which were pitifully thin compared to the rest of his bulk, waved helplessly before his eyes.”

他那无数条腿，与他的身体相比，细得可怜，无助地在他眼前晃动。”

4:28:38 Kafka, I think, effectively uses this image of being transformed into a giant bug stuck on his back to convey a feeling of helplessness and uselessness to his family, to his job, to society.

我认为，卡夫卡有效地利用了这个被变成一只巨大的虫子粘在背上的形象来传达一种对他的家庭、他的工作和社会的无助和无用感。

The feeling of being a burden to everyone, dehumanized, alienated, and abandoned.

成为每个人的负担、非人性、疏远和被遗弃的感觉。

The feeling of being only temporarily valued as long as he served some function for his job or for his family, and quickly discarded otherwise.

只要他为自己的工作或家庭发挥了某种作用，他就会感到暂时受到重视，否则很快就会被抛弃。

I will probably talk about this work in more depth at another time, because it is so haunting, and I think it is such a profound description of the burden of existence in modern society for many people.

我可能会在其他时间更深入地谈论这部作品，因为它是如此令人难以忘怀，而且我认为它深刻地描述了现代社会对许多人的生存负担。

4:29:24 But here, let me talk about another of his work, The Trial.

不过在这里，我要谈谈他的另一部作品《审判》。

In this novel, the main character, Josef K, is a successful bank officer, and he’s arrested on his birthday for an unspecified crime by a kind of amorphous court whose authority is everywhere and nowhere.

在这部小说中，主人公约瑟夫·K是一位成功的银行职员，他在生日那天因一项未指明的罪行被一个权威无处不在又无处可寻的无定形法庭逮捕。

He navigates a labyrinth-like legal system where everyone knows about his case, but no one can really explain it.

他在一个迷宫般的法律体系中航行，每个人都知道他的案件，但没有人能真正解释它。

The so-called trial never actually occurs in any conventional sense.

从任何传统意义上来说，所谓的审判实际上从未发生过。

Instead, Josef K’s entire life becomes the proceedings leading up to the trial.

相反，约瑟夫·K 的一生都变成了审判前的整个过程。

In a sense, the trial is the state of being accused itself, a permanent condition rather than a singular event.

从某种意义上说，审判本身就是被指控的状态，是一种永久的状态，而不是单一的事件。

Kafka’s geniusness work was to show that modern institutions don’t need to hold trials; they just need to hold you in the permanent looming possibility of one.

卡夫卡的天才之举在于表明，现代机构不需要举行审判；而是要进行审判。他们只需要让你永远处于一种迫在眉睫的可能性中。

4:30:21 Public attention to this case, both positive and negative, gives Josef K a feeling of constantly being judged by people around him.

公众对这起案件的关注，无论是积极的还是消极的，都让约瑟夫·K有一种不断受到周围人评判的感觉。

This wears at his mind, and his psychological well-being begins to deteriorate.

这让他心烦意乱，他的心理健康状况开始恶化。

In a sense, the trial doesn’t need to convict him.

从某种意义上说，审判不需要对他定罪。

The internal psychological turmoil and the external social scrutiny performs a conviction and the eventual execution.

内部的心理动荡和外部的社会审视执行着信念和最终的执行。

When exactly one year after his arrest, Josef K is visited by two men, walked him courteously through the city to an abandoned quarry, and stabbed him in the heart without Josef K resisting.

约瑟夫·K 被捕一年后，两名男子拜访他，礼貌地带他穿过城市，来到一个废弃的采石场，并在约瑟夫·K 没有反抗的情况下刺伤了他的心脏。

To me, the trial shows that tyranny’s final victory isn’t when it kills you, or when you hold still for the knife, not because you’re forced, but because you’ve been exhausted into submission.

对我来说，这次审判表明，暴政的最终胜利不是在它杀死你的时候，也不是在你拿着刀不动的时候，不是因为你被迫，而是因为你已经精疲力尽而屈服了。

Once again, it is a haunting story of the soullessness of bureaucracy in its suffocation of the human spirit.

这再一次讲述了一个令人难以忘怀的官僚机构窒息人类精神的毫无灵魂的故事。

I highly recommend this short book, and I’ll probably talk about it even more in the future.

我强烈推荐这本小书，以后我可能会更多地谈论它。

I don’t think it’s especially useful for me to speak to any parallels between The Trial and Pavel Durov’s case, because after all, The Trial is a work of fiction.

我认为谈论《审判》和帕维尔·杜罗夫案件之间的相似之处对我来说并不是特别有用，因为毕竟《审判》是一部虚构作品。

But on a positive note, let me report that as far as I saw, Pavel has maintained optimism and a general positive outlook throughout this whole process.

但从积极的方面来说，让我报告一下，据我所知，帕维尔在整个过程中一直保持着乐观和总体积极的态度。

What I always fear in such cases is that a bureaucratic system can wear people down, exhaust them into surrendering.

在这种情况下，我总是担心官僚制度会让人们疲惫不堪，疲惫不堪，最终屈服。

I saw none of that with Pavel.

我在帕维尔身上没有看到这些。

I don’t think he knows how to give up or give in, no matter how much pressure he’s under.

我不认为他知道如何放弃或屈服，无论他承受多大的压力。

Again, this is truly inspiring to me.

再说一次，这对我来说确实很鼓舞人心。

4:32:09 Also, now that we’re talking about it, let me mention some other of Kafka’s work that was moving to me.

另外，既然我们正在谈论它，让我提一下卡夫卡的其他一些令我感动的作品。

The Castle has similar description as The Trial does of the absurd inaccessibility of those in authority, of the nightmarish bureaucracy.

《城堡》与《审判》对当权者和噩梦般的官僚机构的荒谬难以接近进行了类似的描述。

The character in The Castle is also named K.

《城堡》中的角色也叫K。

Both bureaucracies operate through exhaustion, endless deferrals, procedures, waiting rooms.

这两个官僚机构都是在精疲力竭、无休止的延期、程序和候诊室中运作的。

Again, highly relevant to modern times.

再次，与现代高度相关。

4:32:37 I can also highly recommend Kafka’s In The Penal Colony and Hunger Artist.

我还强烈推荐卡夫卡的《流放地》和《饥饿艺术家》。

Both are too interesting and weird to explain in depth here.

两者都太有趣、太奇怪，无法在这里深入解释。

But let me say, the Hunger Artist is a story that I think is relevant to our modern-day attention economy, where so many people want to be famous.

但我要说的是，我认为《饥饿艺术家》这个故事与我们现代的注意力经济有关，在这个经济中，很多人都想出名。

It tells the story of a, let’s say, professional faster who performs starvation in a cage as entertainment, and he slowly loses his audience to newer spectacles, so much so that eventually when he starves himself to death, nobody cares.

它讲述了一个职业更快者的故事，他在笼子里表演饥饿作为娱乐，他慢慢地失去了观众，转向了新的奇观，以至于最终当他饿死时，没有人在乎。

4:33:14 Kafka’s work is heavy.

卡夫卡的工作很繁重。

It serves as a warning for the nightmare that civilization can become, and yet I think it is also a source of optimism, because when we can recognize elements of our own world in Kafka’s stories, when we can see elements of our institutions in The Trial or in The Castle, when we can see ourselves in Gregor Samsa, we’re not just diagnosing the disease, we’re proving that we’re still human and wise enough to see it and name it.

它是对文明可能成为噩梦的警告，但我认为这也是乐观的源泉，因为当我们能够在卡夫卡的故事中认识到我们自己世界的元素时，当我们能够在《审判》或《城堡》中看到我们制度的元素时，当我们能够在格雷戈尔·萨姆萨中看到自己时，我们不仅仅是在诊断这种疾病，我们还在证明我们仍然是人类，并且有足够的智慧来看到它并命名它。

Kafka gave us the goal: to resist against such systems that tried to dehumanize us and to ensure that individual freedom and the human spirit keep flourishing.

卡夫卡给了我们一个目标：抵制那些试图使我们非人化的制度，并确保个人自由和人类精神不断繁荣。

I think it will.

我想会的。

I have faith in us humans.

我对我们人类有信心。

I love you all.

我爱你们。