诺曼·奥勒：希特勒、纳粹、毒品、二战、闪电战、LSD、MKUltra 与 CIA
Norman Ohler: Hitler, Nazis, Drugs, WW2, Blitzkrieg, LSD, MKUltra & CIA
作家诺曼·奥勒谈纳粹德国的毒品史，从闪电战中的兴奋剂到 LSD 与中情局的精神控制实验。
1940年5月10日，德国国防军穿过阿登山脉发起突袭。三天三夜之后，前锋抵达法国边境城市色当。这条路法国人认为走不通，山路太窄，整支军队要通过这里，等于让一头大象穿过针眼。
出发之前，前线士兵领到了一份特殊配给。德国药企泰姆勒（Temmler）向西部前线交付了3500万剂甲基苯丙胺，药片的名字叫柏飞丁（Pervitin）。
历史学家诺曼·奥勒（Norman Ohler）在德国军事档案馆里翻出了这批档案，写成了《闪电战：第三帝国的毒品》（Blitzed: Drugs in the Third Reich）。研究希特勒的顶级传记作者伊恩·克肖（Ian Kershaw）称它是研究扎实、严肃的学术工作，安东尼·比弗（Antony Beevor）称它是令人惊叹的研究成果。
同一本书也招来了另一位史学大家理查德·埃文斯（Richard Evans）的严厉批评。他的原话是“粗鄙、危险地不准确，在道德和政治上都有害”。
这期播客里，奥勒花了不少时间正面回应这些批评。他的回答，比争论本身更有意思。
慕尼黑的啤酒，柏林的毒品
要理解甲基苯丙胺怎么进入德军的，得先理解1920年代的德国被分成了两个精神世界。
纳粹运动发源于巴伐利亚的啤酒馆，酒精是早期纳粹的首选毒品。希特勒本人不喝酒，是个彻底的禁酒主义者，但他并不介意同伙喝醉。喝醉的人更容易接受右翼民粹，也更容易对“他者”产生攻击性，他可以利用这一点。
1923年的啤酒馆政变就是这么发生的。一群人在酒馆里喝了一晚，忽然决定“就是现在”，冲出去试图推翻慕尼黑政府。奥勒的原话是，这就是一个愚蠢的醉酒主意。巴伐利亚警察那天很清醒，直接开枪把人打趴下。希特勒靠跳到保镖身后躲过一劫。戈林腹部中枪，此后靠吗啡镇痛，成了终身吗啡成瘾者。
同一时期的柏林完全是另一副样子。德国在一战中战败，《凡尔赛条约》把全部战争责任压在德国头上，赔款压垮了经济。柏林物价极低，吗啡、可卡因、麦司卡林、乙醚在城里流通。威廉皇帝时代那种“年轻人不许疯”的秩序消失了，魏玛共和国没人管你。
奥勒说，这正是柏林至今还有点魅力的原因。而慕尼黑的纳粹恨透了这座城，宣传部长戈培尔管它叫“可恨的柏林沥青现实”。1933年纳粹上台后，最先抓的一批人里就有吸毒者。反毒政策和反犹政策被迅速绑在一起：官方宣传说德国犹太人的吸毒率比非犹太德国人更高，而纳粹的目标是净化“德意志身体”，犹太人则是毒。
于是在意识形态上，希特勒成了那个不抽烟、不喝酒、吃素、连咖啡因都不碰的纯净标本。这套人设维持了很久。
然后甲基苯丙胺登场了。奥勒自己都说这事完全荒诞。
一个被黑人运动员刺激出来的产品
1936年柏林奥运会，杰西·欧文斯（Jesse Owens）拿下多枚金牌，跑得比“雅利安超人”快。泰姆勒公司的老板接受不了，他的解释只有一个：欧文斯一定嗑药了，多半是美国的苯丙胺（Benzedrine）。当时奥运会根本不查兴奋剂。
老板给首席化学家豪斯希尔德（Fritz Hauschild）下了任务：造一个更强的、德国版的苯丙胺。豪斯希尔德查到，1917年东京的一位日本化学家已经合成过甲基苯丙胺，于是复刻并改良。公司内部先自己试，试完大家都觉得很好，话多、精力旺盛、心情好。
产品1938年拿到专利，取名柏飞丁，在任意药店都能买到，不用处方。一个孩子可以走进去买十盒纯甲基苯丙胺。价格便宜，社会接受度高。
它当时压根不算“毒品”。官方给它的定位是性能增强剂。奥勒的反问很到位：早上喝一杯咖啡算不算吸毒？在当时的德国，重要商务会谈前来一片柏飞丁，跟今天喝杯浓缩咖啡是一个意思。比利·怀尔德（Billy Wilder）战后拍的电影《一二三》里，美国高管对秘书说，“早上的咖啡我想来半片柏飞丁”。
大学的临床测试报告几乎全是正面的：降低恐惧感、不用睡觉、食欲下降。这三条，对一支准备打仗的军队来说每一条都是刚需。
负面报告要到1940年才出现。第一个公开反对的是施佩尔（Albert Speer）的一位亲戚，一位心理学家。他提了两点。靠药物变成高效者，违背纳粹意识形态，雅利安人应该靠意志；这东西会成瘾、会产生耐受性。
把整支军队变成实验对象
把柏飞丁推入军队的核心人物，是兰克教授（Professor Ranke），德国陆军生理研究所所长。奥勒形容他像007里的Q，专门研发提升士兵性能的装备和手段。
兰克给自己定的问题是：德军士兵最大的敌人是谁？英军、法军、苏军都排在后面，排第一的是疲劳。
他在军校做了对照实验，晚上8点开始，分别给年轻军医甲基苯丙胺、咖啡因片、安慰剂、苯丙胺。到第二天早上10点，服柏飞丁的那组还想出去派对，喝咖啡的那组已经在长椅上睡着了。
兰克的上级是陆军军医总监，一个老派人物，不回复他的信。所以1939年德军进攻波兰时，甲基苯丙胺根本没有正式的管控体系，很多士兵自己就带着吃。战后兰克向所有随军医官发函收集使用报告，结论是：这是极好的战斗药物。
波兰打完后，希特勒要打西线。统帅部强烈反对，认为德国打不过英法联军。1939年11月，一批军官甚至策划政变，就是为了阻止这道进攻命令，因为在军事上这会是灾难。
转机出现在1940年2月17日早上。希特勒把三位年轻坦克将军叫到办公室：古德里安、曼施坦因、隆美尔。他们提出了穿越阿登的方案。
希特勒的第一反应是不可能：那是一整片山地，整支军队怎么穿过针眼？将军们的回答是，大家误解了坦克。坦克不该跟在步兵后面当支援火力，坦克要放在最前面，当赛车开。不等法国人反应过来，德军已经在他们身后。
这个方案有个硬条件：三天三夜必须打到色当，也就是不能停。
兰克意识到，自己的时刻到了。他手里正握着让人三天三夜不睡的方法。此前他是那个“有毒品怪念头的边缘人”，一夜之间变成所有人追问的对象。他在军官面前开讲座，写下《兴奋剂法令》，规定整支军队如何服药、剂量多少、间隔多久、副作用是什么。
1940年5月10日，士兵服下柏飞丁，进攻开始。
药效之下，与它带来的战争罪行
奥勒承认，这个方案本身就是天才的军事构想。如果只用单一原因解释胜利，那个原因是穿越阿登的想法，不是毒品。这一点他一直坚持，也是他的导师、德国纳粹研究权威汉斯·蒙森（Hans Mommsen）反复叮嘱他的：不要用单一因果解释战争。
但毒品确实是那个必要条件。没有它，三天三夜不停顿的推进在生理上做不到。
而且当时没人测试过：一群人在甲基苯丙胺的作用下，坐在坦克里穿过敌国山区，会发生什么？万一集体崩溃呢？
奥勒读到的报告显示，进攻前的军营气氛是低沉的，士兵害怕，不想打。服下药之后，气氛变成了派对。大家很兴奋，喜欢待在坦克里，喜欢一起行动。甲基苯丙胺触发的是战或逃模式，把大脑里应对高危情境的神经递质全部释放出来。在正常情况下，人在极度恐惧时会警觉、会反应。而在甲基苯丙胺的作用下，人通常不会选择逃，反而觉得正在发生的事很酷。
这份“很酷”的代价，出现在夜里。
按常规，任何军队夜间都要停下来休整。法军也停了，在一个村庄宿营。而隆美尔在高剂量药效下不停，带着师部直接碾过村庄。他站在坦克打开的舱盖里，像个狂战士一样穿过去。法军每人每天配给四分之三升红酒，夜里正是困倦的时候。档案里有描述说，坦克履带碾过之后是带血的。
奥勒对此的定性毫不含糊：这是战争罪行。德军在法国乡间的那次推进中，失去了自己的清白。敌人正在睡觉，你不该这么做。
埃文斯批评说，奥勒这套叙述等于用醉酒状态为德军战争罪行开脱。奥勒的回应是，他从未在任何一处这样写过。
他举了自己家里的例子。他的祖父在德国铁路系统工作，曾见过一列装满犹太人的牲畜车厢。祖父只对他说了一句：“这违反德国铁路的运输规章。”他问：“那你做了什么？”祖父说：“车站有党卫军，我太害怕了，我什么也没做。”奥勒认为，祖父是有罪的。
他还专门去问了当过高官的父亲，法律上到底怎么算。答案很硬：如果你策划了一场犯罪，实施时又处于药物或酒精影响下，责任不会减轻。减轻责任只适用于一种情况：一个从没伤害过任何人的普通人，某天意外喝醉或服药，失手杀了人。纳粹的罪行完全不属于这一类。
至于“右翼读者因为这本书而购买”，奥勒说这根本不是事实。相反，他收到过一封愤怒的来信，来自一位德国军队的高级军官兼军事史学者。对方指责他贬低了国防军的水平：德军本来就这么强，你偏说他们是因为嗑药才这么强。
奥勒觉得这事有点好笑。国防军早就不存在了，今天的德国联邦国防军与它名义上没有任何继承关系，但那位军官仍然觉得国防军的荣誉被冒犯了。
敦刻尔克：一次被吗啡推动的决策
法国战役六周结束。军事上最漂亮的阶段，终止于一个命令。
德军装甲部队已经推进到敦刻尔克郊外，这里是英军最后还能撤走的港口。古德里安、隆美尔、曼施坦因都觉得，第二天就能拿下，战役彻底结束。
然后希特勒下达了著名的“停止命令”（Halte-Befehl）。坦克停下，英军从敦刻尔克撤走了三十多万人。
奥勒的解释里有两个因素。
第一，希特勒跟不上这场战争的速度。坦克部队在药效下不需要睡觉，行为方式也超出常规。统帅部讨论时用的还是旧语言：侧翼没有保护，英军从北面来怎么办？希特勒还在打一战的战争，而坦克将军们已经在打另一种战争。
第二，戈林来了。这位空军总司令当时吗啡成瘾，有充分档案记录。他在“鹰巢”元首大本营见到希特勒，说了一番话：如果陆军拿下敦刻尔克，这场战役的功劳就全归陆军了，而陆军统帅部本来就一直反对你，那些人私下叫你“那个小下士”。你该让空军来结束西线战役，让国家社会主义的空军拿下这个功劳。
希特勒被说服了。空军轰炸没能阻止撤退，船沉了一些，主力撤走了。要封锁海滩，当时只能靠地面部队。
曼施坦因后来把这场战役称为“失去的胜利”。三十多万人能撤走，靠的是希特勒在那一刻的政治焦虑，以及一位吗啡成瘾者的建议。奥勒对诺兰的电影《敦刻尔克》评价不高，因为片子完全没写德军这一侧发生了什么。
莫雷尔医生登场
1936年，希特勒的私人摄影师霍夫曼（Hubertus Hoffmann）淋病发作，被柏林选帝侯大街上的一位医生治好了。这位医生叫特奥多尔·莫雷尔（Theodor Morell）。霍夫曼说，我有个好朋友，你一定要见见。
一架飞机把莫雷尔接到慕尼黑，晚宴上只有希特勒、爱娃·布劳恩、霍夫曼和莫雷尔。菜单是番茄酱意面，撒了肉豆蔻。
莫雷尔其实很紧张，意面难吃。机会来了：希特勒抱怨肠胃问题。他是个“蛋糕素食者”，不吃肉，只吃蛋糕和白面包，长期胀气，胀到影响工作。
莫雷尔介绍了益生菌。他说，这是一战期间在塞尔维亚作战的德军士兵身上提取的活菌。当时所有人喝了当地的水都得了肠胃病，只有一个人没事，他的肠道菌群被培养成了药物，叫 Mutaflor。这是真事。希特勒试了，症状消失了。
他很快问莫雷尔：你愿意做我的私人医生吗？莫雷尔的妻子强烈反对，说你会没时间陪我。莫雷尔回答：这样的机会一生只有一次。
莫雷尔不是江湖骗子。他在激素、维生素、益生菌上确实有见识，只是完全没有边界感。他的逻辑是：一个人愿意付钱，想打一针睾酮、维生素或者阿片类，那就给他打。他不在乎你是否有病。
希特勒从不服片剂，认为药片经过他有问题的消化道太慢，他只信注射。而莫雷尔是注射大师，针头比今天粗得多，他打针能让你感觉不到疼。
于是希特勒对每日一针上了瘾。他上瘾的对象是“打针”这个动作本身，药物倒在其次。打完针，这一天就是好的。
1936到1941年，注射的内容基本只有维生素和葡萄糖。这段时期希特勒身体很好，从没生过病。档案里甚至有一份记录：他专门练拉力器，为了能在阅兵时把手臂举几个小时不放下。
网上流传的那段“希特勒在1936年奥运会抽搐、疑似嗑甲基苯丙胺”的视频，奥勒判断是假的。理由很硬：1936年柏飞丁还没上市。他推测是有人读了他的书，以为希特勒一直在嗑冰毒，于是把视频剪了出来。真实情况可能只是他兴奋地晃了几下。
1941年8月：分水岭
1941年6月22日，德国入侵苏联。六周后，德军进展顺利，到了一个必须做决定的时刻。
统帅部说，现在该打莫斯科了。希特勒说，不打莫斯科，分兵：北边打列宁格勒，南边抢油田。
就在做这个决定的那一天，希特勒第一次病倒了。他得了“俄罗斯流感”，高烧，人非常虚弱，但必须去开军事会议。
莫雷尔的笔记里有非常详细的记录，这批笔记存于联邦档案馆，奥勒说此前没有任何历史学家看过。笔记里写，希特勒说维生素已经不够用了。
莫雷尔犹豫了很久，最后给希特勒静脉注射了一种阿片类药物：Dolantin。
奥勒在这里插了一段自己的经历。1988年他在密歇根州弗林特做交换学生，是校网球队一号。关键比赛那天他得了流感，被带去看医生，打了一针。他至今不知道那是什么，但烧立刻退了，他感觉极好，然后以6比0、6比0赢了那个谁都不敢惹的对手。他用的战术是德国人叫 Lüddeln 的高球打法，不好看，但极其有效。
希特勒打完 Dolantin，站起来，走进会议室，主导了整场会议。没有人能压过他。部队被分兵，列宁格勒成了目标，向莫斯科的主攻被削弱。
奥勒认为，这很可能就是德军没能拿下莫斯科的原因。那是唯一一次机会。德国的战争机器只能在闪电战里赢，靠速度和突然性，因为它整体上一直比对手弱。这个速度靠甲基苯丙胺维持，而药效是有期限的。你不可能一辈子嗑冰毒，两个月可以，之后人就废了。
从维生素到“国王的快感”
1941年8月这一针之后，一切都不一样了。希特勒开始对各种药物产生实验兴趣。
莫雷尔本人也变成了另一副样子。他成立了自己的制药公司，工厂设在占领下的捷克斯洛伐克。德军打进乌克兰后，莫雷尔向军方申请垄断乌克兰所有屠宰场所有动物的所有器官。器官被取出，用军列运回工厂，做成猪肝提取物之类的激素制剂。
军方非常愤怒：这些车厢本来要运伤员，现在整车厢都是下水、猪心、猪肝。莫雷尔会用一句话威胁他们：如果不让我的原料车通过，我就告诉元首。
他的商业模式是这样的。战时很难走完新药上市的完整审批流程，希特勒对他说，你在我工厂里造，我来当小白鼠，我觉得好，就直接下法令让它在全德国合法。
1943年7月，墨索里尼想退出战争。希特勒在北意大利的一座别墅与他会面。莫雷尔的记录显示，希特勒情绪极差，拒绝前往，专机在山上等着，他说不见这个人。
然后莫雷尔给他注射了 Eukodal，也就是后来的羟考酮（oxycodone），德国默克公司生产。这是希特勒第一次用这个药。
效果立竿见影。他走向飞机时对莫雷尔说，这药真管用，再来一针。于是他又打了一针。
会谈现场有十五到二十人在场，多人回忆录里提到这一幕：墨索里尼几乎一句话都说不出来，因为希特勒处于高度兴奋状态，滔滔不绝讲了两个小时，讲他们如何共同作战，意大利绝不可能退出。中途有人递条子说罗马刚刚被轰炸，墨索里尼知道了，但他插不上话，只能坐着。
这次成功，让 Eukodal 成为希特勒最看重的药。1943年7月起他开始规律使用。1944年9月，他隔天用一次，奥勒说这就是成瘾者的节奏：用一天，停一天，因为需要恢复，需要睡一觉，需要吃点东西，然后再来。
他采访过一位静脉注射过同款药物的人。对方说，那是国王的快感。神志完全清醒，身体极度舒适，你清楚地知道自己说的每一个点，而对面那些人是凡人，他们昨晚没睡好，他们有烦心事，你远远高于他们。
1944年7月20日之后：可卡因进场
施陶芬贝格的炸弹在桌子底下爆炸。那张德国橡木桌质量太好，挡住了大部分冲击。希特勒活了下来，但耳膜被震破，身上扎进一百多块木刺，内出血，处于休克状态。
一位耳鼻喉科军医基辛（Dr. Keesing）被调来治疗耳膜。他给希特勒用了可卡因，当时可卡因还是常规药物，局部使用可以麻痹疼痛。
希特勒第一次用可卡因，很快产生了兴趣。他开始要求“往鼻子里再来点”。用的是液体，可以用棉签滴进去。
基辛战后被美军审讯，留下了一份十五页的详细报告，奥勒说这份报告读起来非常精彩。
报告里，基辛第一次走进房间，看见的是一个穿着蓝色睡衣的老头，颤颤巍巍走过来跟他握手。他震惊了：整个德国的命运、整个欧洲的命运，都挂在这个人身上。而他此前见到的元首，是宣传机器塑造的形象。
可卡因起效后，希特勒会说：“我终于又能清晰地思考了。”可卡因带来的是一种优越感的冲动，奥勒说这药不谦逊，它放大自我。炸弹袭击之后，希特勒认为所有人都是叛徒，连自己的地堡都不再安全。这种偏执和可卡因的作用正好合拍。
接下来发生的是医生之战。基辛发现元首在大量用药，试图把莫雷尔赶走，他和党卫军头子希姆莱联手。而莫雷尔会在基辛离开房间后进去，给希特勒静脉注射 Eukodal。可卡因加阿片，这就是 speedball，药物生涯末期的用法。那种快感不再稳定。
奥勒说，这一段单独拿出来都够好莱坞拍一部电影。
地堡：断药、戒断、清算
1944年12月，英国轰炸机摧毁了默克公司的工厂。Eukodal 断供。
有记录显示，超重的莫雷尔骑着摩托车，在被炸成废墟的柏林一家家药店跑，想找到 Eukodal，找不到。
希特勒进入戒断状态。奇怪的一点是，吗啡一直供应到最后，但他始终没有换药。很长时间里，他都没意识到自己已经生理性成瘾，这个认知直到地堡的最后几周才发生。
点破他的是戈培尔。戈培尔想要莫雷尔在地堡里的那间卧室，于是对希特勒说：你明白发生了什么吗？莫雷尔把你变成了一个瘾君子。希特勒感受到了戒断的颤抖，明白戈培尔说的是真的。
1945年4月底，莫雷尔被解职。有记载说他跪在希特勒面前，希特勒拿枪指着他的头，说：你让我对阿片上瘾，滚出地堡。莫雷尔哭着离开，搭上了离开柏林的最后几班飞机之一。
他活了下来。5月2日，他到了巴伐利亚南部的实验室，妻子还在柏林，他一个人待着，然后开始报税。
奥勒说，这一幕一定要放进电影里。这大概说明他当时精神已经不正常了。也可能只是典型的德国人作风：终于有时间了，那就把税报了吧。
美军占领巴伐利亚后逮捕了他，审讯了两年。他心脏有问题，最后被丢在慕尼黑火车站前的人行道上，穿着一件太小的、大概是美军的制服外套。一位有犹太血统的护士路过，把他送进医院。他的妻子从柏林赶来，在泰根湖边的一家医院见了最后一面，然后他死了。
关于爱娃·布劳恩，奥勒在华盛顿国家档案馆找到一份莫雷尔的记录：某天早上她来找他，身上有抓痕。这说明她和希特勒的性生活可能带有暴力成分。奥勒对此的判断很干脆：这件事本身在历史上不重要，除非它能解释军事决策，而它不能。但爱娃远不是历史学家长期描绘的那个没脑子的金发女郎。她和希特勒每天晚上10点通电话，她掌管着贝格霍夫，她用摄影机拍摄了大量“元首与儿童”的彩色影像，参与了那个“私底下是个好人”的神话建构。
另一条线：一群在派对上抵抗的人
奥勒还写了另一本书《波希米亚人》（The Bohemians），讲的是德国内部最大的抵抗网络。
核心人物是哈罗·舒尔策-博伊森（Harro Schulze-Boysen）。奥勒是在慕尼黑一个档案馆查空军毒品资料时，偶然翻到他一封信的。那是他一生中写的最后一封信，写给父亲。信里说：我做的一切我都接受，我知道这对你们很难，我主要为你们难过，但我问心无愧，我做了我能做的来阻止这场疯狂。
奥勒当时的第一反应是：这人是谁？
哈罗和妻子利伯塔斯（Libertas，意为自由）组建了纳粹时期最大的抵抗网络，超过一百人，横跨艺术家、工人、左翼、爱国者。1933年4月，他办的杂志《对手》被党卫军冲进来砸毁，打字机和印刷机被砸烂，他和一位半犹太血统的好友被拖进早期的集中营。朋友被折磨死了，他被刻上伤疤，党卫军用刀在他大腿上划了卐字。
他由此得出结论：跟纳粹没法辩论。他选择“穿过机构”，进入空军部工作，一路升到能接触到军事机密的位置。他把德国参与西班牙内战的情报试图交给 BBC，对方太害怕，压下了。
抵抗网络的组织方式是派对。这对夫妇在选帝侯大街附近有一间大阁楼，每隔一个周四办一次聚会。他们在聚会上说一句批评政权的话，观察对方的反应：接话的人可以继续接触，转身去吧台拿酒的人就到此为止。盖世太保擅长渗透共产党小组，只要会说那套话就行，但在这群人面前失效了，因为他们会嗅你。
1942年5月，他们干了件很漂亮的事。纳粹当时在柏林市中心办了一个极受欢迎的展览，叫“苏维埃天堂”，展示共产主义有多可怕，两百万人去看。这群人印了一千多张背面带胶的贴纸，把“苏维埃天堂”改成“纳粹天堂”，下面写：酷刑、党卫军的酷刑、饥饿、战争，还要持续多久？
他们两人一组，一男一女，假装靠在墙上接吻，一边把贴纸贴上去，然后走进黑暗里。第二天早上，几十万柏林人看到了。他们一个人都没被抓。
暴露的方式极其荒诞。苏联方面想把他们收编为间谍，哈罗拒绝了，只同意提供情报、接受了一台电台。俄文说明书他们看不懂，操作出错。真正致命的是，莫斯科回了一份电报，被德方截获并破译，里面直接写了哈罗的名字和地址。奥勒说，这是彻底的情报失误，也可能是斯大林方面故意放弃他们。
之后是几个月的监视、抓捕、军事法庭、死刑。利伯塔斯被盖世太保安排的一位女秘书假扮朋友套话，她把秘密说了出去，成了压垮整个网络的一环。
嗑药的智人
奥勒正在写的新书叫《嗑药的智人》（Stoned Sapiens），用药物作为透镜重看整个人类史。
起点是克里特岛。他在那里度假时想不通一个问题：为什么欧洲第一个高级文化，米诺斯文明，会出现在这里？为什么是克里特突然开始建造巨型建筑、制作精细艺术品？
他在旧书店里找到一本记录某处海边发掘的书，然后自己游到海里，看到水下有一段防波堤的残墙，翻过围栏进去，看到了整个青铜时代最大的墙体。那是个相当大的港口。
那么他们贸易什么？克里特是第一个生产橄榄油的地方。另外，罂粟在那里生长，鸦片在那里被制作。奥勒的说法是：整个欧洲的高级文化，从米诺斯到雅典，起点是一群毒贩。至少，鸦片是当时唯一确定有效的药物，它确实能止痛。
书里还有一段更早的推演。大约150万年前，直立人生活在大裂谷一带，那里有一种植物叫卡塔（khat），是植物性的安非他命，至今在埃塞俄比亚、也门一带仍被日常咀嚼。没有证据证明直立人用过它，但他们住在那里，植物就在那里。
直立人做了一件关键的事：褪去了体毛，因此有了汗腺，能在高温下持续散热。羚羊跑得比人快，但十分钟后必须停下喘气，人不用。人类由此发展出慢跑狩猎：不冲刺，只是不停地跟着，等猎物累垮，再上去解决。
再往后，智人一度只剩大约1500人，近亲繁殖严重，灭绝风险真实存在。奥勒认为，是意识的出现把人类从灭绝边缘拉了回来。那么意识是怎么出现的？
他给出一个假说：智人穿过中非雨林时，遇到了一种大象爱吃的植物，伊博格（iboga）。人看到大象吃了根和叶之后倒着走路、行为异常，于是自己也试。这个过程可能在雨林里持续了十万年。
这个假说无法证明。奥勒自己也承认，也许额叶就是自己长出来的。但他指出，赫拉利在《人类简史》里写到两次认知革命时，明确说“我们不知道这是怎么发生的”。他要做的
他要做的，是把赫拉利跳过的部分全部摊开来看。
他采访了哥伦比亚大学一位伊博格专家。这位专家从没自己服用过，只看数据，用脑扫描做研究。他的发现是：LSD、裸盖菇素这类经典致幻剂会对接特定受体，机制相对清楚；伊博格完全不同，它像是同时出现在大脑各处，像给神经元做了一次水疗。它似乎认识人脑很久了，能立刻看出你抑郁在哪里、成瘾在哪里。抑郁本质上是神经网络的凹陷，是一套“我不配、我做不到”的思维循环。伊博格会把这个凹陷拿出来，让大脑重新恢复正常。这位专家不称它为植物，称它为22世纪的神经技术。
关于宗教，奥勒讲了摩西。摩西在埃及杀了人，逃亡，带着一群人在西奈旷野里禁食多日、不饮酒。这本质上就是一次致幻静修。圣经里那段“燃烧的灌木”和“十诫”的叙述中，多次提到金合欢（acacia）。埃及金合欢恰好生长在西奈，含有二甲基色胺（DMT）。以色列学者对此有详细研究。奥勒的推演是：摩西独自上山三小时，其他人在山下等着；DMT 体验的一大特点就是因人而异，有人毫无感觉，有人体验极强，而摩西有太多东西需要处理，他刚杀了一个人。所以他接收到的诫命里有一条是“不可杀人”。
他还提到德国著名的《啤酒纯净法》。这条1516年的法令规定啤酒只能含水、啤酒花、大麦。长期以来它被视为质量控制，但奥勒认为，这实质上是教会发动的欧洲中世纪第一部禁酒令，目的是清除此前啤酒里加入的各种东西，比如颠茄。女巫们酿的那种能让人看见幻象、围着火跳舞的酒，教会不喜欢。啤酒花是教会引入的新原料。
再往后是苏美尔。人类从冰期结束到苏美尔文明之间，有数千年没有国王的时期。加泰土丘（Çatalhöyük）这种聚落运转了两千年，没有等级结构。那么等级是怎么来的？奥勒的答案是啤酒。啤酒由祭司阶层酿造，标注归属于某座神庙，出售，神庙因此地位上升、积累财富，等级由此产生。
他由此推到一个更大的判断：我们不需要国王。人类曾经在没有国王的情况下组织过自己。他认为最终出路是打破民族国家、建立行星尺度的社会，配合开源 AI，实现行星最低收入，让所有人拥有同等政治权利。他也清楚这说的是五十年后的事。
LSD：从瑞士实验室到 CIA
《迷幻》（Tripped）讲的是 LSD 的历史。
1943年，山德士（Sandoz）的化学家阿尔伯特·霍夫曼意外发现了 LSD 的效果，向 CEO 汇报“大脑出现了强烈反应”。公司在巴塞尔总部设了一间“中毒室”，员工自愿参与，成为世界上第一批使用 LSD 的人。那间屋子离德国边境只有一步之遥，窗外能听见战争的声音。
所有报告都是正面的：一直想笑、感觉很好、想明白了自己生活里的一些事、觉得生活本来就应该是这样。CEO 阿图尔·斯托尔（Arthur Stoll）判断这可能是精神健康领域的游戏规则改变者。那是抗生素之后、抗抑郁药之前，二战已经制造了数百万心理创伤者。
奥勒为了查档案，用了很直接的手段。山德士后被诺华收购，档案是私有的，档案管理员有权拒绝。他带去了一片 LSD，上面印着山德士1940年代的旧 logo，是巴塞尔本地实验室的人做来致敬的。他把这片给管理员看，说：这是你们公司做的。然后送了他一次。管理员收下了，冰破了。十分钟后，斯托尔与纳粹科学家的通信就被搬了出来。
铁证出现在1943年10月：理查德·库恩（Richard Kuhn）确认收到半克麦角胺，那是 LSD 的前体。
库恩是谁？他是斯托尔在威廉皇帝研究所的同门，导师是同一位犹太化学家、诺贝尔奖得主理查德·威尔施泰特（Richard Willstätter）。斯托尔去了山德士做制药，库恩成了希特勒的首席生物化学家，负责寻找“吐真剂”，也参与神经毒气研发。纳粹掌权后，两人仍然是朋友，1920年代一直通信讨论麦角研究，库恩也去过山德士实验室一起做实验。
奥勒早在写《闪电战》时就发现，党卫军在达豪用麦司卡林和另一种未命名的致幻物质做过实验。麦司卡林有个问题：苦，难做。“吐真剂”的逻辑是，我让你在不知情的情况下服下一种无色无味的东西，半小时后你发现大脑不对劲，你开始不安，而我掌握着这个局面，于是我可以从你嘴里掏出任何东西。LSD 无味、易合成，正好合适。
所以他一直怀疑 LSD 有一段纳粹前史。这听起来很违和，LSD 是嬉皮士的药，是和平主义者的药。
在达豪，一位囚犯的报告被保留了下来：他的咖啡里被下了药，他经历了一次完整的迷幻之旅，而党卫军在一旁审问他。奥勒说，他本以为在集中营里会是一次糟糕的体验，但这位囚犯看到了分形和色彩，看到了比纳粹更大、比集中营更大的东西。最糟糕的时刻是药效结束、他重新变回一个囚犯的时候。
美军解放达豪时带了一支叫“阿尔索斯”（Alsos）的特别小组，任务是找到德国科学家、获取他们的知识，重点是核计划，也包括生化武器。他们最早审讯的人之一就是库恩。库恩立刻配合，他不想上纽伦堡法庭，还想继续自己的学术生涯。他是个机会主义者，纳粹信念其实没那么坚定，他同样喜欢美国人。于是他第一时间把 LSD 的事说了出来。
第二天，一位美军高级将领从美国飞到法兰克福，去海德堡再次见库恩，然后脱下军装换上便服前往中立国瑞士的巴塞尔，从斯托尔的儿子手里拿到了第一批 LSD。那是1945年夏天。
美军开始研究：LSD 会不会就是吐真剂？如果纳粹认为它是，也许它真是，因为纳粹的科学家确实站在最前沿，无论他们多邪恶。
结论是彻底失败。LSD 不是吐真剂。它也许能让你更接近你自己的真相，但它不能让人被控制。它不会把你变成一台服从的机器。你可以用它来强化自己原有的信仰体系，也可以用它打开新的视角。
然后这套东西转到了 CIA 手里。1947年中央情报局成立，首任局长杜勒斯提出“大脑战”的概念：冷战是大脑层面的战争，苏联可能正在研发针对我们的东西，我们必须准备好。于是有了 MKULTRA，一个从未经过国会批准的心智控制项目，LSD 是其中的核心工具。
奥勒的评价很直接：这是纳粹人体实验的延续。击败了纳粹，然后把那面旗继续举着往前走。
LSD 最终被列为非法，这件事也和 MKULTRA 的负责人西德尼·戈特利布（Sidney Gottlieb）有关。他认为 LSD 危险的说法只是幌子，他真正想要的是独占它。他亲自飞到巴塞尔，提着装有24万美元的手提箱，要买下全世界所有的 LSD。按美国大使提供的情报，山德士应该已经生产了400公斤，这笔钱就是那个价格。斯托尔回答：实际上我们只生产了400克，但我当然会全部卖给你。
压力是这样施加的：CIA 与 FDA 关系密切，如果你想让你的药物进入全球最大的市场，LSD 就不会是其中之一。斯托尔妥协了。此后 LSD 只作为研究用药发放，任何研究者都可以写信给山德士申请。而绝大部分流入了 CIA，用于 MKULTRA。
它也流了出去。其中一个“小白鼠”叫肯·克西（Ken Kesey），拿了75美元参与 CIA 的 LSD 实验，当时他在门洛帕克的一家精神病房工作。在药效之下，他意识到那些病人也许不是疯了，只是看世界的方式不同。这就是《飞越疯人院》的来源。
奥勒对 LSD 倾向性的判断是：它更容易放大共情、多样性和对差异的接纳。
他给母亲用了 LSD
书里最私人的一段，是奥勒自己的家庭故事。
他读到一项研究，说微量 LSD 对阿尔茨海默症可能有帮助，而他母亲正患此病。他去问了父亲，也采访了一位顶尖的阿尔茨海默专家。专家的反应是“这太惊人了”，因为 LSD 作用的5-HT2A受体，正是阿尔茨海默症破坏的那些受体。LSD 做的事，和阿尔茨海默症做的事正好相反。
他父亲当过法官，曾经把毒品犯送进监狱。父亲的问题是：如果这东西这么好，为什么药店买不到？他说：你最好把故事给我讲清楚。
于是有了《迷幻》这本书。
结果是他们真的一起用了。圣诞节三人一起用了 LSD，母亲节用了蘑菇。母亲节那天，报纸放在阳台上，他们在太阳底下坐着，母亲服了微量蘑菇。奥勒强调这是微量，不会产生旅程，只是激活大脑。她那个被阿尔茨海默侵蚀的大脑，反应比父亲强得多。父亲总说自己“什么都感觉不到”，而母亲突然拿起那份一年多没碰过的报纸，开始念标题给他们听。那是关于乌克兰战争的新闻，她从没听过这个词，念“乌克兰”的时候发音很困难，因为她已经一年多没接触新闻了。
一次微量蘑菇，让她重新拿起了报纸。
那些写作者和他们的药
访谈后半段聊到了写作本身。
奥勒说写作有两个部分。一个是实际的写作，那部分是痛苦的，靠的是纪律和专注，而专注越来越难，因为手机。他在瑞士西尔斯玛利亚的尼采故居租房间写作，尼采在1882到1888年间每个夏天都在那里待三个月，写出了大部分作品。那个房间还在，书桌还在。
奥勒说他在那里才能关掉手机。他像士兵一样进那座房子，从不在那里用药，因为会破坏那个房子里的清晰感。他还说，他会跟尼采说话，尼采的门一直开着。他评价尼采：是个彻底的怪人，但人不错。
写作的另一个部分是灵感。LSD 给他的帮助，是第一次旅程让他明白世界有深渊，也有恐怖。他说自己小时候是个无忧无虑的孩子，从没想过世界这么深。LSD 让世界变深了。但他不会在 LSD 状态下写作，因为那时你想去森林走走、想上山，绝不会坐在难看的电脑屏幕前。
关于凯鲁亚克，奥勒说《在路上》据传是三周内靠安非他命写成的，用的是不停换纸的卷筒纸。他自己的体验是：吃安非他命能写二十页，写得很爽，但第二天绝不会再吃。因为安非他命会降低自我批评，让你感觉太好、太自信，只是往下写。而文学写作靠的是细微差别，需要极度开放，安非他命恰恰会让人封闭，变成一台机器。要是方向错了，你可能写完两百页然后全部扔掉。凯鲁亚克大概也扔了很多。
他说《在路上》是一本速度之书，主题就是快速移动、不停下来。
关于“哪些名作家没在写作时用过药”，奥勒的反问是：你能举出哪个名作家没用过？他说这是当作家的一大好处，你可以在工作时段用药，没人会因此取消你。政治家不行。
他提到菲利普·K·迪克也是安非他命写作者，剂量大了会进入某种幻觉空间，写《银翼杀手》原著时也许有用。也提到马尔科姆·洛瑞和 Hemingway 靠酒精写作，但自己喝酒就写不出来。
他的建议是：写醉，改醒。如果他在安非他命状态下写了东西，第二天一定要清醒着改。
那些他愿意称为同事的人
被问到影响自己的书，奥勒列了一串。
《尤利西斯》。但他说这本书只在一种条件下成立：二十出头、住在纽约、正在写第一本小说、刚吃过 LSD。那时读它，会觉得它打开了什么。你不必理解全部，但它让你看到讲故事有很多种方式。
影响最大的可能是加缪的《局外人》。他说自己主要在乎语言，不太在乎写的是什么。二十岁那年他躺在摩洛哥的海滩上读这本书，一个摩洛哥人走过来问他：你为什么在读一本种族主义的书？他愣住了。对方说：他杀了一个阿拉伯人，没什么后果，只是因为无聊，这就是种族主义。奥勒当时完全不接受这个论证，因为对他来说那是一次纯粹的文体体验。
但他记住了《局外人》的一个特征：没有一句是多余的。他一直想写出每一句都不多余的书，但他说这非常难。尼采能做到，每一句都像被凿出来的。所以对他来说，尼采的格言也是诗。
还有卡夫卡、托马斯·曼。曼很好笑，虽然话太多，但在德语里很有意思。
以及托马斯·品钦的《万有引力之虹》。他九十年代末在柏林读，被彻底震住了，认为这是二十世纪最好的小说之一。他不理解品钦是怎么做到的，也没人知道，因为品钦过着完全隐居的生活。奥勒说自己知道一点，知道他的妻子是谁，但不会说。他对这种隐私保护的评价是：这也很了不起。
宇宙在讲一个大故事
访谈最后，被问到人生的意义。
奥勒的回答是：他总觉得宇宙在讲一个大故事，一直在讲，而我们的意识是这个更大故事的一部分。所以宇宙的意识，那个巨大的故事，大概就是意义所在。或者，个体生命的意义，是去理解那个故事。
他说这是他一个月前在山上走的时候，在 LSD 状态下相当清楚地感受到的。山很高，伸进大气层，由各种矿物组成，它们在接收击中这颗行星的宇宙能量。往上走的时候，他没法用语言描述自己在感知什么，但他感知到了那个更大故事的一部分。
他说，那就是灵感。那种时刻会把你带到离意义很近的地方，而那意义不能落成文字，它是一种体验。对一个创作者来说，这是他必须去经历的。数学家也一样，他会在某一刻听到更多的东西，抓住某些联系，可能还写不成公式，但如果他是个开放的人，他会成为更好的数学家，因为他多懂了一点万物的意义。
他也提到沃尔特·本雅明说的“被装箱的人类”：我们住在城市里，醒来，做事，被框住。所以要多待在自然里，待在系统之外。他希望自己的写作能松开一点脑子里的波，让人多理解一点。理解的过程本身，就是他追求的东西。
节目结尾，Lex 引了特伦斯·麦肯纳的话：自然热爱勇气。你做出承诺，自然会回应这个承诺，把不可能的障碍移走。做不可能的梦，世界不会把你碾碎，它会把你举起来。这就是魔法实现的方式：纵身跃入深渊，然后发现那其实是一张羽毛床。
如果只能记住几件事
- 读《闪电战》时，把它当成一份档案研究，别把它当单一因果的解释。阿登方案本身才是德军西线胜利的军事核心，药物是让这个方案在生理上可行的必要条件。奥勒在书里和访谈里都反复强调这一点，蒙森那句“不要用单一因果解释战争”值得贴在书页上。
- 看历史人物时，别把制度和身体分开。希特勒从1941年8月的一针阿片开始，决策风格、体能、偏执程度同时发生变化。1940年5月敦刻尔克的停止命令、1941年8月的不打莫斯科，都能在时间线上和具体的用药记录对齐。这不是给罪行开脱，是为决策质量找一个此前被忽略的变量。
- 分辨“性能增强”和“毒品”这套标签是怎么被划出来的。甲基苯丙胺1938年在德国是药店随便买的性能增强剂，LSD 在1943年的巴塞尔是公司内部自愿参与的项目，两者变非法都是具体的政治过程：一个是战时管制与意识形态，一个是 CIA 想独占。标签反映的是权力，不是分子本身。
- 如果你要写自己不熟悉的东西，去现场。奥勒去弗莱堡的军事档案馆读兰克手写的战地日记，去诺华档案室拿斯托尔与库恩的通信，去找波兰毒贩要一克冰毒并意外收到1938年柏飞丁专利复印件。档案不会自己开口，但去了，它就会给你东西。
- 把“历史学也是虚构学”这句话放在心上。奥勒说没有人在现场，所有历史写作都是一种基于事实的虚构。这不是相对主义，是提醒你读任何一本历史书时都问一句：作者选了什么、跳过了什么、为什么这样组织。
- 关于致幻剂，别推荐。奥勒和 Lex 在这个问题上罕见地完全一致：对不熟悉的人一律说不。他自己第一次 LSD 是在曼哈顿下城的一个周六夜，被强度吓到以为自己疯了，认为大脑出了化学失衡，会一辈子这样。他把那称为自己最糟的一次旅程，虽然事后回看价值极高。剂量单位是微克，那是已知最强的精神活性物质之一。
- 写作这件事，纪律和灵感要分开处理。灵感部分可以从容探索，纪律部分需要一个能关掉手机的地方。奥勒的选择是尼采故居，你的选择可以是任何一间没有信号的房间。写醉改醒，这条对任何状态的写作都成立。
Hitler invited three young tank generals to his office, and they had a plan, which was the plan to go through the Ardennes Mountains.
希特勒邀请了三位年轻的坦克将军到他的办公室，他们有一个计划，那就是穿越阿登山脉的计划。
00:00 That was the victorious idea.
这就是胜利的想法。
So it’s not the drugs, actually that idea to go through the Ardennes Mountain.
所以这不是毒品，实际上是穿越阿登山脉的想法。
If you, if you think monocausal, you would say that’s the reason.
如果你认为单一因果，你会说这就是原因。
That idea was genius, and Hitler immediately understood it, because before, the plan was to attack in the north of Belgium, which is the same as World War I.
这个想法太天才了，希特勒立刻就明白了，因为之前的计划是攻击比利时北部，这和第一次世界大战是一样的。
You, it, it becomes a stalemate and they fight for months, and no one really moves, and it’s bloody, and it’s nothing’s happening.
你，它，陷入了僵局，他们打了几个月，没有人真正行动，这很血腥，什么也没有发生。
It’s bad.
这很糟糕。
But that was the only plan that they had.
但这是他们唯一的计划。
That’s why the high command said, “No, we’re not gonna do it.
这就是为什么最高指挥部说：“不，我们不会这样做。
00:39 It’s stupid.
这很愚蠢。
But these three tank generals said, “Look, if we go with the whole army through the Ardennes Mountains,” and Hitler was like, “Eh, this is not possible.
但这三位坦克将军说，“看，如果我们带着全军穿越阿登山脉，”希特勒说，“呃，这是不可能的。
This is like a mountain range.
这就像一座山脉。
How can the whole German army fit through this eye of a needle,” basically.
整个德国军队怎么能穿过这个针眼呢？”基本上。
And they said, “No, we can do it because everyone misunderstands what tanks can do.
他们说：“不，我们能做到，因为每个人都误解了坦克的功能。
Tanks are not slow machines in the back that wait for the action to happen, and then support this somehow.
坦克并不是在后面等待行动发生，然后以某种方式支持行动的缓慢机器。
We’re going to use tanks in the front as race cars, basically.
基本上，我们将使用前面的坦克作为赛车。
We’re going to overpower the enemy.
我们将战胜敌人。
We’re going to be in France before they know it.
在他们知道之前我们就已经到达法国了。
01:16 We are already behind them, but it would only work if you would reach Sedan, the border city of France, within three days and three nights, and that was only possible if you don’t stop.” Suddenly, Ranke realized that his moment had come because he had the recipe for how people could stay awake for three days and three nights.
我们已经落后了，但只有三天三夜之内到达法国边境城市色当才行，而且只有不停歇才有可能。”突然，兰克意识到他的时刻已经到来，因为他掌握了让人三天三夜不睡觉的秘诀。
Before that, he was kind of an outsider, like the freak with the drug idea.
在此之前，他有点像个局外人，就像一个有毒品想法的怪胎。
Suddenly, he became like…
突然，他变得像……
01:38 …”Okay, tell us, how does it work?” And he gave lectures in front of the officers and he wrote a stimulant decree where a whole army is prescribed a drug, in this case, methamphetamine.
……“好吧，告诉我们，它是如何运作的？”他在军官面前发表演讲，还写了一项兴奋剂法令，规定全军都开出一种药物，在这种情况下是甲基苯丙胺。
How much should be taken, at what intervals.
应该服用多少，间隔多久。
This became a very big thing.
这成了一件非常大的事情。
And then Temmler had to deliver 35 million dosages to the front lines.
然后，Temmler 必须向前线运送 3500 万剂药物。
And then on May 10th, they took their methamphetamine and they started the surprise attack through the Ardennes Mountains.
然后在5月10日，他们带着甲基苯丙胺，开始穿越阿登山脉的突然袭击。
The following is a conversation with Norman Ohler, author of Blitzed: Drugs in the Third Reich, a book that investigates what role psychoactive drugs, particularly stimulants such as methamphetamine, played in the military history of World War II.
以下是与诺曼·奥勒（Norman Ohler）的对话，他是《闪电战：第三帝国的毒品》一书的作者，这本书调查了精神活性药物，特别是甲基苯丙胺等兴奋剂，在第二次世界大战的军事历史中扮演的角色。
02:09 It is a book that two legendary historians, Ian Kershaw and Antony Beevor, give very high praise to.
这是两位传奇历史学家伊恩·克肖和安东尼·比沃给予高度评价的书。
Ian Kershaw describes it as, “Very well-researched, serious piece of scholarship.” And Antony Beevor describes it as, “Remarkable work of research.” And it is, indeed, a remarkable work of research.
伊恩·克肖 (Ian Kershaw) 将其描述为“研究非常深入、严肃的学术成果。”安东尼·比弗 (Antony Beevor) 将其描述为“出色的研究工作”。这确实是一项出色的研究工作。
Norman went deep into the archives using primary sources to uncover a perspective on Hitler and the Third Reich that has before this been mostly ignored by historians.
诺曼利用第一手资料深入档案，揭示了关于希特勒和第三帝国的观点，而在此之前，这一观点大多被历史学家忽视。
He also wrote Tripped: Nazi Germany, the CIA, and the Dawn of the Psychedelic Age.
他还写了《绊倒：纳粹德国、中央情报局和迷幻时代的黎明》。
03:04 And he’s now working on a new book with the possible title of Stoned Sapiens, a great title, looking at the history of human civilization through the lens of drugs.
他现在正在写一本新书，书名可能是《Stoned Sapiens》，一个很棒的书名，通过毒品的视角来审视人类文明的历史。
This is the Lex Fridman Podcast.
这是莱克斯·弗里德曼播客。
To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description and consider subscribing to this channel.
为了支持它，请查看说明中的赞助商并考虑订阅此频道。
And now, dear friends, here’s Norman Ohler.
现在，亲爱的朋友们，这是诺曼·奥勒。
03:31 Tell me the origin story of meth, methamphetamine, and Pervitin, its brand-name drug version, in the context of Nazi Germany in the late 1930s.
告诉我在 20 世纪 30 年代末纳粹德国的背景下，冰毒、甲基苯丙胺及其品牌药物 Pervitin 的起源故事。
Let’s start there.
让我们从这里开始。
I think you’re right to ask about the context because without the context, it’s not really understandable.
我认为你询问上下文是正确的，因为如果没有上下文，就无法真正理解。
03:43 So what was the situation?
那么当时的情况是怎样的呢？
In the ’20s, the Nazi movement basically started, and it started in Bavarian beer halls.
20世纪20年代，纳粹运动基本上开始了，而且是从巴伐利亚的啤酒馆开始的。
So alcohol was the drug of choice of the early Nazi movement.
因此酒精是早期纳粹运动的首选药物。
The only guy that didn’t drink was Hitler.
唯一不喝酒的人是希特勒。
He was a teetotaler, I guess you say.
我猜你会说，他是一个滴酒不沾的人。
So that was happening in Munich.
这就是慕尼黑发生的事情。
So alcohol and national socialism are very closely connected.
所以酒精和国家社会主义有着非常密切的联系。
At the same time, in the ’20s, in Berlin, there was a completely different thing going on.
与此同时，在二十世纪二十年代，在柏林，发生了一件完全不同的事情。
People were taking all kinds of drugs.
人们服用各种药物。
This had to do, actually, with the defeat of Germany in the First World War.
实际上，这与德国在第一次世界大战中的战败有关。
I mean, the context is a big context.
我的意思是，上下文是一个大上下文。
04:32 The Versailles Treaty had the effect that the German economy was not really able to recover after the end of World War I.
《凡尔赛条约》的影响是，第一次世界大战结束后，德国经济未能真正复苏。
The Versailles Treaty was written basically by the Western victorious powers.
《凡尔赛条约》基本上是由西方战胜国签订的。
Germany had no say in the negotiations.
德国在谈判中没有发言权。
And I’m certainly not a German nationalist, not even a German patriot, but even I would say that the Versailles Treaty treated Germany somewhat unfairly.
我当然不是德国民族主义者，甚至不是德国爱国者，但即使我也会说《凡尔赛条约》对德国有些不公平。
I mean, it laid all the blame on Germany.
我的意思是，这一切都归咎于德国。
And, I mean, a war is a very complex thing, and the First World War, to examine how it actually started, is a very complex story, and there are many factors to it.
我的意思是，战争是一件非常复杂的事情，而第一次世界大战，要考察它实际上是如何开始的，是一个非常复杂的故事，有很多因素。
But the Versailles Treaty just said it was Germany’s fault, and then Germany had to make all these payments to the allies.
但凡尔赛条约只是说这是德国的错，然后德国必须向盟国支付所有这些费用。
It couldn’t create a new economy.
它无法创造新经济。
It couldn’t have a new army.
它不可能有一支新军队。
05:31 So the economy really went down.
所以经济确实下滑了。
Everything in Berlin was cheap, and the people were also using substances that were very cheap in huge quantities.
柏林的一切都很便宜，人们也大量使用非常便宜的物质。
So while in Bavaria, they were drinking alcohol, and alcohol in the brain stimulates behavior, group behavior, us against them.
因此，在巴伐利亚时，他们喝酒，大脑中的酒精会刺激我们的行为，群体行为，我们反对他们。
You can actually examine this.
你可以实际检查一下。
A neuroscientist would know exactly how this works.
神经科学家会确切地知道这是如何运作的。
While in Berlin, the drugs that were used were morphine, there was cocaine, there was mescaline, there was ether.
在柏林时，使用的药物有吗啡、可卡因、麦司卡林和乙醚。
So people were experimenting.
于是人们就开始进行实验。
Everyone developed a different mindset.
每个人都形成了不同的心态。
It was all…
这一切都是……
You know, you didn’t behave in a way that some kind of authority would like you to behave in, because the authority had just lost the First World War, and there was no real authority in Berlin.
你知道，你的行为方式并不是某种权威希望你采取的行为方式，因为该权威刚刚在第一次世界大战中战败，而柏林并没有真正的权威。
06:23 People were doing whatever they wanted to do, and they were intoxicating themselves in the way they wanted to.
人们在做他们想做的事，他们以他们想要的方式陶醉自己。
So the population, in a way, if you just look at Munich and Berlin, was growing apart.
因此，从某种程度上来说，如果你看看慕尼黑和柏林，人口数量正在增长。
Like, there were the alcohol people in Munich, the Nazis, and then there were these weird, diverse, LGBTQ, whatever kind of scene in Berlin, like actresses sniffing ether in the morning and then making crazy moves.
比如，慕尼黑有酗酒的人、纳粹分子，然后柏林就有这些奇怪的、多样化的、LGBTQ 的场景，比如女演员早上嗅乙醚，然后做出疯狂的动作。
Could you speak to the nature of the motivation for the drug use in Berlin at the time?
您能否谈谈当时柏林吸毒动机的本质？
06:51 Was it rebellion?
这是叛乱吗？
Was it a way to deal with the difficult economic depression?
这是应对困难的经济萧条的一种方法吗？
Was it just the natural thing that young people do to explore themselves, to understand the world, to develop their culture?
探索自我、了解世界、发展文化是年轻人自然而然的事情吗？
What do we understand about drug use there?
我们对那里的毒品使用了解多少？
All of these factors come together.
所有这些因素结合在一起。
07:14 But it was the first time in modern history, in Germany at least, that there was no emperor.
但这是现代历史上第一次没有皇帝，至少在德国是如此。
Before that, Kaiser Wilhelm, everything was very strict, you know?
在此之前，威廉皇帝，一切都非常严格，你知道吗？
You had to…
你必须……
You couldn’t go crazy, you know, as a young person.
你知道，作为一个年轻人，你不能发疯。
You couldn’t be a young person.
你不可能是一个年轻人。
But now in the Weimar Republic in the ’20s, you could.
但现在在二十世纪二十年代的魏玛共和国，你可以。
No one stopped you, so people went crazy.
没有人阻止你，所以人们都疯了。
That’s what made Berlin into the city that it still somehow is.
这就是柏林成为一座至今仍如此的城市的原因。
And maybe later we’ll talk about contemporary Berlin.
也许稍后我们会谈论当代柏林。
It kind of…
有点像……
It still has that vibe, you know?
它仍然有那种氛围，你知道吗？
That’s why people still come to Berlin.
这就是人们仍然来到柏林的原因。
Drugs are cheap, you can move however you want, there’s no authority.
毒品很便宜，你可以随心所欲地移动，没有权威。
07:54 So that created a rift between the Nazis in Munich, and they always hated Berlin and what was going on in Berlin.
因此，这在慕尼黑的纳粹分子之间造成了裂痕，他们一直讨厌柏林和柏林发生的事情。
So, for example, Goebbels, the later propaganda minister, he called the situation in Berlin the “hated asphalt reality of Berlin.” He hated that.
因此，例如后来的宣传部长戈培尔，他将柏林的情况称为“令人讨厌的柏林沥青现实”。他讨厌那样。
And when the Nazis then were able to take power in 1933, one of the first things they did was to really prosecute people who were taking drugs, because they wanted to, you know, bring everyone back into the fold.
当纳粹于 1933 年掌权时，他们做的第一件事就是真正起诉吸毒者，因为他们想要，你知道，让每个人重新回归正轨。
And I think that’s…
我认为那是……
You asked what was the reason for people taking so many drugs.
你问人们服用这么多药物的原因是什么。
They were accessible, they were cheap, but I think the most important thing is that they let you find yourself, maybe, or lose yourself, you know?
它们很容易接近，它们很便宜，但我认为最重要的是它们让你找到自己，也许，或者迷失自己，你知道吗？
Also possible, you know?
也有可能，你知道吗？
Can we also focus attention there, because you have a connection to this place, Berlin, and this part of the world.
我们是否也可以将注意力集中在那里，因为你与柏林这个地方以及世界的这个地区有联系。
08:42 Can you just briefly speak to that so we can contextualize even deeper the personal aspect of this?
您能否简单地谈谈这一点，以便我们可以更深入地了解这件事的个人方面？
Because you understand the music of the people, the land, its history.
因为你了解人民、土地和历史的音乐。
There’s something you can only really understand if you’ve been there and you’ve taken it in.
有些东西只有当你身临其境并接受它时，你才能真正理解。
And we’ll return to this topic in multiple contexts, but in this particular way, as one human being who writes about this place, what’s your own story?
我们将在多种背景下回到这个话题，但以这种特殊的方式，作为一个写这个地方的人，你自己的故事是什么？
I grew up in West Germany, and this was during the Cold War.
我在西德长大，那是在冷战时期。
09:19 And Berlin, the walled-in city, was always like a big fascination because there was a wall, there was actually a wall in the city preventing people from moving into another part.
柏林，这座有围墙的城市，总是让人着迷，因为有一堵墙，城市里实际上有一堵墙，阻止人们搬到另一个地方。
And I was from the west, fortunate enough to be from the free west, so I could travel to Berlin, and I could leave.
我来自西部，很幸运来自自由的西部，所以我可以去柏林，然后我可以离开。
I could look at it, and I always loved Berlin.
我可以看看它，我一直很喜欢柏林。
I thought it was a very vibey place.
我认为这是一个非常有气氛的地方。
And then when the wall came down, I was still in school, but I immediately got into the car of my parents and drove there.
然后当墙倒塌的时候，我还在学校，但我立即坐上了父母的车，开到了那里。
I wanted to see how it came down.
我想看看它是怎么下来的。
And then Berlin really, in the ’90s, became a place that was very attractive to me, and I moved there then in the ’90s.
然后柏林在 90 年代确实成为了一个对我非常有吸引力的地方，我在 90 年代搬到了那里。
10:04 I was first living in New York.
我首先住在纽约。
I wrote my first novel in New York, and I loved New York before Giuliani became mayor.
我在纽约写了我的第一部小说，在朱利安尼成为市长之前我就喜欢纽约。
It was…
这是……
He ruined the city.
他毁了这座城市。
Before that, it was not gentrified.
在此之前，它还没有高档化。
Or let’s say he introduced gentrification, and gentrification is a big topic.
或者说他引入了中产阶级化，而中产阶级化是一个大话题。
I still lived in the ungentrified New York City for like 300 bucks a month rent, and everyone I knew was an artist.
我仍然住在没有中产阶级的纽约市，每月租金大约 300 美元，我认识的每个人都是艺术家。
You loved the diversity of it?
您喜欢它的多样性吗？
Yeah, I loved it.
是的，我喜欢它。
10:28 I wrote my first novel there.
我在那里写了我的第一部小说。
I took LSD for the first time in Downtown Manhattan on a Saturday night.
周六晚上，我在曼哈顿市中心第一次服用LSD。
So you’re kind of like a German Kerouac-type character, but moved a few decades forward.
所以你有点像德国凯鲁亚克式的人物，但向前推进了几十年。
I wouldn’t compare myself to another writer, but I think Kerouac is pretty cool.
我不会将自己与其他作家进行比较，但我认为凯鲁亚克非常酷。
10:40 But he’s an amphetamine writer.
但他是一名安非他明作家。
On The Road was apparently written in two weeks on amphetamines.
《在路上》显然是在两周内写成的，内容是关于安非他明的。
And it’s good.
这很好。
You know, amphetamines are not bad per se.
你知道，安非他命本身并不坏。
We can also talk about these so-called bad drugs, you know, because basically they’re neutral.
我们还可以谈论这些所谓的坏药，因为它们基本上是中性的。
But let’s not lose the thread.
但我们不要失去线索。
Yes, yes.
是的，是的。
11:00 New York, Berlin…
纽约、柏林……
Even though New York was…
尽管纽约是……
11:01 Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
And then I was in New York.
然后我就到了纽约。
I was in a health food store, one of the first.
我在一家保健食品店，是最早的一家。
There weren’t health food stores back then a lot, but there was one on First Avenue.
当时保健食品店并不多，但第一大道上有一家。
And suddenly there was an announcement, which was unusual in the health food store.
突然传来了一条公告，这在保健食品店里是不寻常的。
I think it was called Prana, Prana Foods.
我想它叫 Prana，Prana Foods。
And the announcement was that Kurt Cobain had just shot himself.
宣布科特·科本刚刚开枪自杀。
It was like…
就像……
And I had been, actually, and still am, a Nirvana fan.
事实上，我曾经是、现在仍然是 Nirvana 的粉丝。
I’ve seen one of the last concerts of Nirvana in New York City, and it was amazing.
我在纽约看过 Nirvana 的最后一场音乐会，真是太棒了。
But he killed himself, and the next day, I received a music cassette from a friend of mine from Berlin with electronic music, and I realized that there had been a paradigm shift, obviously.
但他自杀了，第二天，我收到了柏林朋友寄来的电子音乐盒带，我意识到显然已经发生了范式转变。
Rock music with the hero on stage was dead.
舞台上的英雄的摇滚音乐已经死了。
11:47 Now it was, you know, dance, electronic music, which a lot of people today think it’s a kind of simplistic music form, but it’s actually a very highly intelligent music form.
现在，你知道，舞蹈、电子音乐，今天很多人认为这是一种简单化的音乐形式，但它实际上是一种非常高度智能的音乐形式。
At least it was in the ’90s.
至少在20世纪90年代是这样。
People were really experimenting with that music.
人们确实在尝试那种音乐。
That was the new music.
这就是新音乐。
That was actually the reason I moved to Berlin.
这实际上是我搬到柏林的原因。
I really…
我真的…
I decided I’d leave New York City and move to Berlin.
我决定离开纽约搬到柏林。
And then in Berlin, to answer your question, I fell in love with something that probably reminded me of the ’20s, even though I wasn’t there in the ’20s.
然后在柏林，为了回答你的问题，我爱上了一些可能让我想起 20 年代的东西，尽管我不在 20 年代。
But that really…
但那确实是……
The city was very open.
这个城市非常开放。
The wall had just…
墙壁刚刚……
Was still, you know…
仍然静止，你知道……
I mean, it’s a few years later, but still, the wall, it felt like it just came down.
我的意思是，几年过去了，但那堵墙仍然感觉像是刚刚倒塌。
There was…
有……
Germany was…
德国当时……
Berlin was not yet the capital of Germany.
柏林还不是德国的首都。
12:35 That was still in Bonn.
那还是在波恩。
So Berlin was a very cheap, and cultural, and crazy city, probably a bit like in the ’20s, actually.
所以柏林是一个非常便宜、有文化、疯狂的城市，实际上可能有点像 20 年代的样子。
And that’s how I fell in love with it, and that’s how I became interested in this electronic scene.
这就是我爱上它的原因，也是我对这个电子场景产生兴趣的原因。
I mean, I visited many dance venues then, so-called clubs.
我的意思是，当时我参观了很多舞蹈场所，所谓的俱乐部。
It’s one of the hubs in the world of electronic music.
它是电子音乐世界的中心之一。
They claim that techno was kind of invented in Berlin, but it also comes from Detroit.
他们声称技术是在柏林发明的，但它也来自底特律。
12:59 So Detroit and Berlin are like the techno hubs, I would say.
所以我想说，底特律和柏林就像技术中心。
Electronic music is a soundtrack for some of the most interesting experiences this earth has ever created, right?
电子音乐是地球上一些最有趣的体验的配乐，对吗？
13:09 It just gets people together in some interesting ways.
它只是以一些有趣的方式让人们聚集在一起。
So it’s not just the music itself, it’s the experiences that the music enables.
所以这不仅仅是音乐本身，还有音乐带来的体验。
Well, in Germany, we had a situation that the wall actually kept people apart.
嗯，在德国，我们遇到的情况是，墙实际上将人们分开。
13:23 People didn’t know each other.
人们互相不认识。
But because the wall came down, people suddenly met in abandoned buildings in the center of Berlin, which had been owned by the socialist state of East Germany.
但由于柏林墙倒塌，人们突然在柏林市中心的废弃建筑中聚会，这些建筑曾属于东德社会主义国家。
The most famous club, Tresor…
最著名的俱乐部，Tresor…
Tresor means, like, vault.
Tresor 的意思是“金库”。
It was the big vault with the big doors, so that’s where Tresor was, the club.
那是一个有大门的大金库，所以这就是 Tresor 所在的俱乐部。
It’s so funny that the echo 100 years later, Berlin had all these young partygoers using drugs, and then Munich with the beer, and that’s where Hitler came out.
有趣的是，100 年后的回声，柏林让所有这些年轻的聚会常客吸毒，然后慕尼黑喝了啤酒，这就是希特勒出现的地方。
13:50 So is that what we’re supposed to imagine in the early days of the Nazi party when Hitler’s giving the speeches to just a handful of folks, they’re all drunk?
那么，这就是我们在纳粹党成立初期所想象的，当希特勒只向少数人发表演讲时，他们都喝醉了的情况吗？
Well, it is a fact that the movement came out of the Bürgerbräukeller.
事实是，该机芯来自 Bürgerbräukeller。
14:12 It’s a certain restaurant pub in Munich, and that was not only a beer hall, that was also a political venue.
这是慕尼黑的一家餐厅酒吧，那不仅是啤酒馆，也是一个政治场所。
And it was a right-wing venue.
这是一个右翼场所。
It was for right-wing populists.
这是为右翼民粹主义者服务的。
People like communists wouldn’t use it, even though communists are in many ways quite similar to the right wing, especially back then.
像共产主义者这样的人不会使用它，尽管共产主义者在很多方面与右翼非常相似，尤其是在当时。
But it was used by right-wingers, and Hitler didn’t mind because people who are drunk are more susceptible to right-wing populism, I would claim now here, and Hitler would agree.
但它被右翼分子使用，希特勒并不介意，因为喝醉的人更容易受到右翼民粹主义的影响，我现在在这里声称，希特勒也会同意。
So he did not think it was bad that these people were a bit drunk, or maybe even very drunk, because if you’re drunk you also get aggressive against others.
所以他并不认为这些人喝得有点醉，甚至可能喝得很醉，这并不是什么坏事，因为如果你喝醉了，你也会对别人产生攻击性。
He could play with that, you know?
他可以玩那个，你知道吗？
So drunk, aggressive towards others, but drunk in a group.
喝醉了，对别人有攻击性，但在一群人中喝醉了。
It constitutes the group also.
它也构成了该组。
15:03 If everyone is on the same alcohol level.
如果每个人的酒精含量都相同。
You know, you can just go to Oktoberfest in Munich, which is not a political thing, but everyone…
你知道，你可以去慕尼黑啤酒节，这不是政治问题，但每个人......
You can kind of sense how it originated.
你可以感觉到它是如何起源的。
And actually, the first time the Nazis tried to grab power was the so-called Beer Hall Putsch.
事实上，纳粹第一次试图夺取权力是所谓的啤酒馆政变。
I mean, that’s a historical event.
我的意思是，这是一个历史事件。
It took place in 1923, and it was after a drunk night where they suddenly decided, “Now we’re going to do it.” So they came out of the Bürgerbräukeller, and they were all drunk except Hitler, and they just tried to overtake the Munich government, and they miserably failed because it was just a stupid drunk idea.
事情发生在 1923 年，在一个喝醉的夜晚之后，他们突然决定：“现在我们就这么做。”所以他们从Bürgerbräukeller出来，除了希特勒之外，他们都喝醉了，他们只是试图超越慕尼黑政府，但他们惨遭失败，因为这只是一个愚蠢的醉酒想法。
They were like, “Yeah, let’s just do it.” And the Bavaria police, quite sober that day, they just shot them to the ground.
他们说：“是的，我们就这么做吧。”而巴伐利亚警察，那天相当清醒，他们只是将他们射倒在地。
15:49 Hitler was almost killed.
希特勒差点被杀。
He just jumped behind his bodyguard.
他直接跳到保镖身后。
Göring, during the Beer Hall Putsch, was wounded in his stomach with a, I think a gunshot.
戈林在啤酒馆政变期间，腹部受伤，我认为是枪伤。
That’s why he became a morphine addict.
这就是他成为吗啡成瘾者的原因。
So this Beer Hall Putsch in ’23 had severe effects.
所以23年的啤酒馆政变产生了严重的影响。
Also, they were sentenced to prison, and Hitler wrote Mein Kampf in prison.
他们还被判入狱，希特勒在狱中写下了《我的奋斗》。
All these little events come together.
所有这些小事件都聚集在一起。
16:11 It’s so interesting that for them it was just life, but now we look back at these critical moments in history that turned the tides of human civilization, right?
太有趣了，对他们来说这只是生活，但现在我们回顾这些扭转人类文明潮流的历史关键时刻，对吗？
So Hitler could have died there, and these characters, Göring, that became larger than life…
所以希特勒可能死在那里，而这些人物，戈林，变得比生命更伟大……
…That influenced the lives and the deaths and the suffering of millions, all…
……这影响了数百万人的生命、死亡和痛苦，所有人……
First of all, it could have been stopped then, and whatever that means when you look back at history.
首先，它本可以在那时停止，无论这意味着什么，当你回顾历史时。
But all those are just human beings developing their ideas, growing, developing groups, developing ideologies, and using drugs or drinking.
但所有这些都只是人类发展自己的想法、成长、发展群体、发展意识形态以及使用毒品或饮酒。
I mean, that’s why I thought it’s interesting, for example, to examine Hitler’s drug use.
我的意思是，这就是为什么我认为检查希特勒的吸毒情况很有趣。
16:53 When I announced that to a historian while I was doing research, he helped me a lot with methamphetamine and the army, a proper medicine historian from the University of Ulm.
当我在做研究时向一位历史学家宣布这一点时，他在冰毒和军队方面给了我很多帮助，他是乌尔姆大学的一位真正的医学历史学家。
And then I said, “Now I’m interested in Hitler.” He said, “No, don’t.
然后我说：“现在我对希特勒感兴趣了。”他说：“不，不要。
This is not interesting.
这并不有趣。
This is not serious…” He said, “This is not serious history.” But it’s…
这不严重……”他说，“这不是严肃的历史。”但这是……
You know, even Hitler was a person, you know?
你知道，即使希特勒也是一个人，你知道吗？
And if you understand, for example, the substance abuse of a person, of course you understand more about that person.
例如，如果你了解一个人的药物滥用情况，你当然会更多地了解那个人。
And historians never had that idea before.
历史学家以前从未有过这个想法。
Kershaw, for example, who is really a great…
例如克肖，他真的是一个伟大的……
He’s very knowledgeable about national socialism.
他对国家社会主义非常了解。
17:36 Like many British historians, they always know more about German history than the German historians, but Kershaw really does.
像许多英国历史学家一样，他们总是比德国历史学家更了解德国历史，但克肖确实如此。
I think he’s really good.
我认为他真的很好。
But in his biography of Hitler, he just writes one sentence like, “And then he had a crazy doctor called Morell who gave him dubious medications and drugs,” and he stops there, and then he goes on to describe whatever.
但在他的希特勒传记中，他只写了一句话，“然后他有一个叫莫雷尔的疯狂医生，给了他可疑的药物和药物”，然后他就停了下来，然后他继续描述任何事情。
Yeah, we should say that Ian Kershaw is widely considered to be probably one of the greatest biographers of Hitler.
是的，我们应该说伊恩·克肖被广泛认为可能是希特勒最伟大的传记作家之一。
I think he wrote the best biography of Hitler.
我认为他写了最好的希特勒传记。
Which is so important.
这非常重要。
18:10 Your work is really important because it opens a whole new perspective on the lives of the individuals and the machinery of the Nazi military that historians haven’t looked at.
你的工作非常重要，因为它为人们的生活和纳粹军队的机器开辟了历史学家从未研究过的全新视角。
It’s so interesting that you can unlock those perspectives.
这太有趣了，你可以解锁这些观点。
And that’s the underlying, really, the foundation of our conversation today and of your work, is there are layers to this thing.
这就是我们今天的谈话和你的工作的根本基础，这件事是有层次的。
You can look at the tactics of war and the strategic level of war, the operational level of war.
你可以看看战争的战术层面、战争的战略层面、战争的作战层面。
You could look at the human suffering of war, the love stories.
你可以看看战争中人类的苦难和爱情故事。
You could look at the hate, the psychology of propaganda, or you could look at the individual things, substances consumed by the individuals that make up the Nazi Party leadership and the soldiers.
你可以看看仇恨、宣传心理，或者你可以看看构成纳粹党领导层和士兵的个人所消费的个人事物和物质。
19:00 And all those are critically important to understand the war, right?
所有这些对于理解战争都至关重要，对吗？
And this piece of drug use and supplement use have been ignored by historians.
而这一块药物的使用和补品的使用却被历史学家所忽视。
That was very surprising to me, you know.
你知道，这让我非常惊讶。
19:11 I didn’t know this myself.
我自己也不知道这一点。
I never planned to write this book.
我从来没有打算写这本书。
It kind of happened to me.
这有点发生在我身上。
And I decided to team up with the leading German historian on National Socialism, Hans Mommsen, who has passed away by now.
我决定与德国国家社会主义领域的著名历史学家汉斯·莫姆森（Hans Mommsen）合作，他现在已经去世了。
He was quite old, but quite ready to be my mentor for this book, Blitzed.
他已经很老了，但已经准备好成为我这本书《Blitzed》的导师了。
And he was maybe even shocked when I came back from the military archive of Germany with a lot of copies, all relating to the systematic drug use of the German army, including an experiment done by the Navy, who had always pretended to be the clean, in German we say Waffengattung, weapon.
当我从德国军事档案馆带回大量副本时，他甚至可能感到震惊，所有这些副本都与德国军队系统性使用毒品有关，包括海军所做的一项实验，海军一直假装是干净的武器，在德语中我们称之为“Waffengattung”。
Like you have the Army, you have the Air Force, you have the Navy.
就像陆军、空军、海军一样。
And in Germany they had the SS.
在德国，他们有党卫军。
20:15 And the Navy always pretended to be like, “We weren’t really Nazis.
海军总是假装说：“我们并不是真正的纳粹分子。
We were like, you know, the German Navy.
我们就像，你知道的，德国海军。
We had our ethics code.” But I found in the archive that the Navy did human experiments in the concentration camp of Sachsenhausen, trying to find a new wonder drug, because they had new, what they called ‘wonder weapons’ or what Hitler called ‘wonder weapons’.
我们有自己的道德准则。”但我在档案中发现，海军在萨克森豪森集中营进行人体实验，试图找到一种新的神奇药物，因为他们有新的，他们所谓的“神奇武器”或希特勒所说的“神奇武器”。
He always talked about these wonder weapons.
他总是谈论这些神奇的武器。
Wonder weapons were basically mini submarines, one or two people going in, staying underwater for up to a week and torpedoing, you know, allied ships.
奇迹武器基本上是迷你潜艇，一两个人进去，在水下停留长达一周，然后用鱼雷攻击盟军船只。
So the Navy was trying to develop a drug that would keep you awake and combat-ready for seven days and seven nights without sleep and without, you know, burning out.
因此，海军正在尝试开发一种药物，可以让你在 7 天 7 夜不睡觉的情况下保持清醒并做好战斗准备，而且不会出现倦怠感。
Very difficult to find.
很难找到。
21:02 So they hired a penalty unit in the concentration camp.
于是他们在集中营里雇佣了一个刑罚分队。
They hired…
他们雇佣了……
The SS had a so-called ‘shoe walking unit’.
党卫军有一个所谓的“鞋子步行装置”。
It was a penalty unit within the concentration camp testing shoe soles for the German shoe industry, walking for like days.
这是集中营内的一个惩罚单位，为德国制鞋业测试鞋底，步行了差不多几天。
And then they would measure how the soles, you know, kept up in the stress, and they had different layers in the concentration camp, like all the surfaces the German soldiers would touch when they conquered Europe.
然后他们会测量鞋底如何承受压力，它们在集中营中有不同的层，就像德国士兵征服欧洲时会接触到的所有表面一样。
So this is a very elaborate thing, you know.
所以这是一件非常复杂的事情，你知道。
And if you go to the concentration camp today, it’s a museum.
如果你今天去集中营，那是一座博物馆。
You can still see that running track of the shoe runners unit.
你仍然可以看到跑鞋单元的跑步轨迹。
21:43 So the Navy hired the shoe runners unit from the SS, paid them money, and then gave them drugs, different kinds of drug combinations, methamphetamine combined with cocaine and chewing gum and all kinds of things.
于是，海军从党卫军雇佣了跑鞋小队，付给他们钱，然后给他们毒品、各种药物组合、甲基苯丙胺与可卡因和口香糖的混合物以及各种各样的东西。
So this is a big thing, you know.
所以这是一件大事，你知道。
And there are documents to it.
并且有相关文件。
And Mommsen, who knew everything about National Socialism, the old, you know, authority.
还有蒙森，他对国家社会主义了如指掌，你知道，这个古老的权威。
And I’m like the young, like I didn’t study history.
我就像年轻人一样，就像我没有学过历史一样。
I just, you know, I just try to make sense, you know.
我只是，你知道，我只是试图说得通，你知道。
But I present him all these documents.
但我向他展示了所有这些文件。
He’s reading like from this Pill Patrol and he said, “Wow.” Like he said, “We historians, we never do drugs.
他正在读《药丸巡逻队》里的内容，他说：“哇。”正如他所说：“我们历史学家从不吸毒。
We don’t understand drugs.
我们不懂毒品。
This, we missed this.” You know.
这个，我们错过了。”你知道。
So he was very clear that we missed this.
所以他很清楚我们错过了这一点。
22:30 And he said this is actually the missing link that historians did not have, especially to explain Hitler’s degeneration as a leader.
他说，这实际上是历史学家所没有的缺失环节，特别是在解释希特勒作为领导者的堕落时。
He made very good decisions, good in meaning militarily effective decisions in the beginning of the war, and very bad decisions for the German war effort towards the end.
他做出了非常好的决定，好的决定是在战争开始时军事上有效的决定，而对德国战争结束时的努力却做出了非常糟糕的决定。
And you can link that to drugs.
你可以将其与毒品联系起来。
You can explain a lot of Hitler through the drugs, but you can also look at this point that historians so far had not been able to figure out, basically.
你可以通过毒品来解释希特勒的很多事情，但你也可以看看历史学家迄今为止基本上无法弄清楚的这一点。
What happened to Hitler?
希特勒怎么了？
Why did he get crazy?
他为什么发疯？
And I mean, he was crazy, but why did he get so bad as a leader?
我的意思是，他很疯狂，但为什么他作为领导者变得如此糟糕？
Because he was very effective for a long time and then there’s this moment where it turns.
因为他在很长一段时间里都非常高效，但到了这一刻，情况发生了转变。
Yeah, the degeneration of decision-making, psychology, behavior, all of that.
是的，决策、心理、行为等等的退化。
23:17 You cannot understand that fully without understanding his drug use.
如果不了解他的吸毒情况，你就无法完全理解这一点。
And we should also say that some of the historians you mentioned, Ian Kershaw and Anthony Beevor, these legends of history, they all gave you compliments.
我们还应该说，你提到的一些历史学家，伊恩·克肖和安东尼·比沃，这些历史传奇人物，他们都给了你赞美。
So Kershaw said that “Your work is very good, extremely interesting, and a serious piece of well-researched history.” Anthony Beevor said that it’s a remarkable work of research.
所以克肖说：“你的作品非常好，非常有趣，是一部经过深入研究的严肃历史。”安东尼·比沃说，这是一项了不起的研究工作。
So props to them.
所以支持他们。
You have received a bunch of criticism from historians, but you’ve also received, obviously, a lot of props.
你受到了历史学家的大量批评，但显然你也收到了很多支持。
I mean, Kershaw, the legendary historian of Hitler, complimenting how deep your work is.
我的意思是，克肖，希特勒的传奇历史学家，称赞你的工作有多么深入。
That must feel good.
那感觉一定很好。
24:09 Maybe this is a good moment to also, since we’re talking about historians, to address some of the criticism.
既然我们谈论的是历史学家，也许现在也是解决一些批评的好时机。
So Richard Evans has been also a great historian, has been one of the bigger critics.
所以理查德·埃文斯也是一位伟大的历史学家，也是更大的批评家之一。
He said that your work is crass and dangerously inaccurate account, and is morally and politically dangerous.
他说你的工作很粗鲁，而且描述不准确，很危险，在道德和政治上都是危险的。
I think that’s grounded in the idea that if you say that, “Well, all the Nazi forces and Hitler were on drugs, so therefore their evil can be…
我认为这是基于这样一个想法：如果你说，“好吧，所有纳粹军队和希特勒都吸毒，所以他们的邪恶可能是......
They’re not really evil.
他们其实并不邪恶。
Accountability can be removed because they were using drugs.”
因为他们吸毒，所以可以免除责任。”
Right.
对。
And also another criticism of his, which I also understand and probably can steel man, is if you look too much through the singular lens of drugs, you can overemphasize it.
对他的另一个批评是，如果你过多地通过毒品的单一镜头来看待，你可能会过分强调它，我也理解这一点，并且可能可以成为钢铁侠。
24:49 You can overemphasize how important it was as an explainer of the effectiveness of Blitzkrieg, for example.
例如，你可能会过分强调它作为闪电战有效性解释者的重要性。
Because there is some…
因为有一些……
I mean, I should say there is something really compelling about a singular theory that explains everything, and you can fall in love with it too much as an explainer.
我的意思是，我应该说，解释一切的单一理论确实有一些令人信服的东西，作为解释者，你可能会太喜欢它。
So can you steel man his criticism or a criticism you received, and also argue against it?
那么，你能否对他的批评或你收到的批评进行反驳呢？
I think he’s absolutely right that you shouldn’t argue in a monocausal way.
我认为他绝对正确，你不应该以单一因果的方式争论。
25:32 And this is actually what Mommsen also said to me because, of course, I was enthusiastic about all my drug findings.
这实际上也是莫姆森对我说的，因为当然，我对我所有的药物发现充满热情。
And he said, “Don’t argue in a monocausal way, especially the war.”
他说，“不要以单一因果的方式争论，尤其是战争。”
There are a lot of variables, a lot of factors, a lot of things going on.
有很多变量，很多因素，很多事情正在发生。
So that sentence of his, “Don’t argue in a monocausal way,” that always stayed with me.
所以他的那句话“不要以单一因果的方式争论”，这句话一直萦绕在我的脑海里。
25:53 And I think that I didn’t deviate from that path, actually.
事实上，我认为我并没有偏离这条道路。
But it was still interesting that Evans thought that I put too much emphasis on the drugs.
但有趣的是，埃文斯认为我过于重视毒品。
It’s…
这是……
I think it’s a totally fine opinion.
我认为这是一个非常好的意见。
I would disagree.
我不同意。
Otherwise, I wouldn’t have written the book.
否则，我就不会写这本书。
What I can state here is that I invented nothing.
我在这里可以声明的是我没有发明任何东西。
In all of my three non-fiction books, nothing is invented.
在我所有的三本非小说类书籍中，没有什么是发明的。
If you are a good writer, and I trained as a novelist, for me, it was also very unusual to write a non-fiction book.
如果你是一名优秀的作家，而我接受过小说家训练，那么对我来说，写一本非小说类书籍也是很不寻常的。
I wanted to write a novel about Nazis and drugs.
我想写一本关于纳粹和毒品的小说。
My publisher said, “No, this is…” And he looked at the facts, you know?
我的出版商说：“不，这是……”他着眼于事实，你知道吗？
26:43 He said, “Someone has to write the facts.” So I said, “But the non-fiction books are boring.” He said, “Not necessarily.
他说：“必须有人写下事实。”所以我说，“但是非小说类书籍很无聊。”他说：“不一定。
Maybe you can find a way to write it with your novelistic style, but based 100% on the facts.” And that is like…
也许你可以找到一种方法来用你的小说风格来写它，但要100%基于事实。”那就像……
In German we say Șpagat.
在德语中我们说 şpagat。
How do you say that?
你怎么说呢？
A split, like when you do with your legs.
劈叉，就像你用腿劈叉一样。
It’s hard, you know?
这很难，你知道吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Because with a very fluent, sophisticated language, you can easily overpower the reader.
因为用非常流利、复杂的语言，你可以轻易地征服读者。
27:09 If I describe how the German guys, 19-year-old guys, took the meth and went into the tank, and the meth started kicking in, five guys on meth after one hour of ride into France, you can write that in a powerful way that if you are the reader, you would think, “Yeah.
如果我描述德国小伙子，19 岁的小伙子如何服用冰毒并进入罐子，冰毒开始发挥作用，五个人在骑车进入法国一小时后吸食冰毒，你可以用一种强有力的方式来写，如果你是读者，你会想，“是的。
I mean, the Blitzkrieg without meth is unthinkable.”
我的意思是，没有冰毒的闪电战是不可想象的。”
There is a bit of a…
有一点…
27:38 Man, I wish I found that kind of feeling for historians, right?
伙计，我希望我能找到对历史学家的那种感觉，对吗？
Like, “How did I miss this piece?” So some historians, like great historians like Kershaw, obviously, they kind of give you a slow clap, applaud.
就像，“我怎么错过了这首曲子？”所以一些历史学家，比如像克肖这样的伟大历史学家，显然，他们会给你缓慢的鼓掌，鼓掌。
And some historians are a little bit skeptical, like, “This is a little too good.” So totally understandable.
一些历史学家有点怀疑，比如，“这有点太好了。”所以完全可以理解。
And…
还有……
Also, they have different techniques to write texts like this.
此外，他们有不同的技巧来编写这样的文本。
28:02 I used a totally different technique.
我使用了完全不同的技术。
And I have an apparatus, so it really feels like it could be an academic work.
而且我有一个设备，所以感觉它真的可以成为一部学术作品。
But still, it’s written in a way that it kind of overpowers.
但尽管如此，它的写作方式还是有点压倒性的。
It kind of colonializes the story in a weird way.
它以一种奇怪的方式殖民化了这个故事。
I never thought about it like that.
我从来没有这样想过。
But while I was writing it, I was just trying to write it as well as I could.
但当我写它的时候，我只是想尽我所能地写好它。
I didn’t think about these questions we’re talking about now.
我没有考虑我们现在谈论的这些问题。
Yes.
是的。
I just…
我只是……
28:36 I got carried away, obviously, but I never left the area of facts.
显然，我得意忘形了，但我从未离开过事实的范围。
Yes.
是的。
28:43 So we should talk about your process.
所以我们应该谈谈你的流程。
That’s also super fascinating.
这也是超级吸引人的。
You went to the archives.
你去了档案馆。
You went to the sources.
你去了来源。
What does that take?
那需要什么？
What does it feel?
感觉如何？
What does it smell like?
闻起来像什么？
What does it look like?
它看起来像什么？
What does it entail?
它意味着什么？
How much text is there?
有多少文字？
What language is it in?
它是什么语言的？
What’s the process there?
那里的流程是怎样的？
I never thought of going to the archives.
我从来没有想过去档案馆。
29:01 And my girlfriend at the time, she said, “You have to go to the archives.” And she’s an academic.
我当时的女朋友，她说，“你必须去档案馆。”她是一名学者。
So she…
所以她……
And I was like, “Yeah, okay.
我当时想，“是的，好吧。
I’ll go.
我去。
I’m fine.
我很好。
I’ll check it out.” And then when I met a historian, he claims that without methamphetamine, there would be no Blitzkrieg victory of Germany.
我会检查一下。”然后当我遇到一位历史学家时，他声称没有甲基苯丙胺，德国就不会获得闪电战的胜利。
Like he’s monocausal.
就像他是单一因果的一样。
But he was also extremely helpful to me, and he’s an academic.
但他对我也非常有帮助，而且他是一位学者。
He gave me the signatures, it’s called in German, where you find stuff in the archives.
他给了我签名，用德语称为，你可以在档案中找到东西。
Signature is like…
签名就像...
Then it says like H2/538, something like this.
然后上面写着 H2/538，类似这样的内容。
And these were the files of Professor Ranke.
这些是兰克教授的档案。
And Professor Ranke was the head of the Institute for Army Physiology.
兰克教授是陆军生理学研究所所长。
His job was to improve the performance of the soldier.
他的工作是提高士兵的表现。
30:00 And all of his stuff was filed in a certain place in the military archives, which in Germany is in Freiburg, in the south, in a small town, not in Berlin.
他所有的东西都归档在军事档案馆的某个地方，这个地方在德国南部的弗莱堡，在一个小镇，而不是在柏林。
Because Germany is a bit of a decentralized country.
因为德国是一个有点分散的国家。
We don’t want to put everything into Berlin again like the Nazis did.
我们不想再像纳粹那样把一切都投入柏林。
We try to avoid our mistakes.
我们尽力避免犯错误。
So the military archive is in Freiburg, and I went there.
军事档案馆在弗莱堡，我去了那里。
And because I had this signature, immediately I got original documents that were all relating to my research.
因为我有这个签名，所以我立即得到了所有与我的研究相关的原始文件。
Like, I could read the original.
比如，我可以读原著。
I had the original.
我有原件。
What does it look like?
它看起来像什么？
30:34 Is it sheets of paper?
是张纸吗？
Yeah, it’s like…
是的，就像……
Like, so it’s not scanned, it’s…
就像，所以它没有被扫描，它是......
Well, it’s different things, like the guy who put the meth into the army, Professor Ranke.
嗯，这是不同的事情，就像那个把冰毒投入军队的人，兰克教授。
30:39 He was writing a war diary.
他正在写一本战争日记。
That’s what the name was, War Diaries.
这就是它的名字，战争日记。
So every day he would write it by hand.
所以他每天都会手写。
So this war diary was given to me.
于是这本战争日记就送给了我。
So you’re reading that?
所以你正在读那个？
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
So it’s like dated, you have a date…
所以就像约会一样，你有一个约会......
Yeah
是啊
…
……
30:59 the diary?
日记？
It was a bit funny with him because he took a lot of meth himself, because he thought it was great.
这对他来说有点有趣，因为他自己服用了很多冰毒，因为他认为这很棒。
31:00 He just thought it increases your performance.
他只是认为这会提高你的表现。
By now we know a little bit more that methamphetamine is not so healthy because you get used to it and you burn out, and you get depressed, and then you have to take more.
到目前为止，我们更多地知道甲基苯丙胺不太健康，因为你习惯了它，你就会精疲力尽，你会变得沮丧，然后你必须服用更多。
Big problem.
大问题。
And he became depressed and burnt out, and he didn’t realize it’s because of the meth that he’s like describing to the whole German army, like he was, he made a convincing case.
他变得沮丧和精疲力尽，他没有意识到这是因为他向整个德国军队描述的冰毒，就像他一样，他提出了一个令人信服的案例。
And I can explain that in detail how that actually happened.
我可以详细解释这到底是如何发生的。
But just to have his war diary was great, and then also he would type letters writing to the company of Temmler, how fast they could produce stuff, in which time.
但仅仅拥有他的战争日记就很棒了，然后他还会写信给泰姆勒的公司，告诉他们他们能多快地生产东西，在什么时间。
31:46 So we have, you have all these original documents.
所以我们有，你有所有这些原始文件。
You have like 500 documents and it goes like, he writes like reports what happened in this battle on methamphetamine.
你有大约 500 份文件，就像他写的报告一样，讲述了这场冰毒之战中发生的事情。
There’s a lot of stuff you can find in the archives if you find them.
如果你找到的话，你可以在档案中找到很多东西。
But the tricky thing is that you can only look, you can kind of look at a so-called find book.
但棘手的是你只能看，你可以看一本所谓的查找书。
In the find book you cannot type in “drugs.” It wouldn’t find anything because at the time when they were taking all the notes from this doctor, his war diary, everything, they didn’t put the label “drugs” there.
在查找簿中，您不能输入“药物”。它不会找到任何东西，因为当他们记录这位医生的所有笔记、他的战争日记以及所有东西时，他们并没有在那里贴上“毒品”的标签。
They put the label his name, his position, World War II, French campaign, stuff like that.
他们贴上了他的名字、他的立场、第二次世界大战、法国战役等标签。
So, because at the time they didn’t know that I would at one point come and look for drugs in that, you know?
所以，因为当时他们不知道我有一天会来这里寻找毒品，你知道吗？
32:36 But he was the drug guy, but also they didn’t realize he was the drug guy.
但他是毒枭，但他们也没有意识到他是毒枭。
No one realized that he was the drug guy.
没有人意识到他就是毒枭。
So it’s not easy to find stuff in the archives.
所以在档案馆里找到东西并不容易。
So the archives you go, it’s a very Kafkaesque experience.
所以你去的档案馆，这是一种非常卡夫卡式的体验。
You go into this building, and you have to understand the rules, and you will never fully understand what’s going on.
你走进这座大楼，你必须了解规则，但你永远无法完全理解发生了什么。
Also, the archivists, they don’t really know what’s going on because there’s so many documents.
而且，档案管理员并不真正知道发生了什么，因为文件太多了。
No one’s read them all, you know?
没有人读过所有这些，你知道吗？
No one knows, like there’s history kind of lying there, somehow organized, somehow stored.
没有人知道，就像历史就在那里，以某种方式组织起来，以某种方式存储起来。
I mean, it does sound like a very Kafkaesque…
我的意思是，这听起来确实很像卡夫卡式的……
It’s-
这是——
…
……
33:08 thing.
事。
But it’s great if you find something, but you can also sit there for a week and not find anything.
但如果你找到了一些东西那就太好了，但你也可以在那里坐一个星期却什么也没找到。
So what was the process for you?
那么您的流程是怎样的？
33:14 You’re just reading, open-minded, seeing, trying to see, is there some truth here to be discovered?
你只是在阅读，思想开放，观察，试图观察，这里有什么真理有待发现吗？
Well, I have a friend.
嗯，我有一个朋友。
33:26 He’s a DJ, and we talked about Berlin.
他是一名 DJ，我们谈论了柏林。
We’ll probably talk about it more, and he takes a lot of drugs.
我们可能会更多地谈论这件事，他服用了很多药物。
And he knows his drugs, let’s put it that way.
他了解他的毒品，这么说吧。
He knows his drugs.
他了解他的毒品。
And one day he said to me when I was trying to figure out what I would write about next, he said, “The Nazis took a lot of drugs.
有一天，当我试图弄清楚下一步要写什么时，他对我说：“纳粹拿走了很多毒品。
You should write about that.” And I said, “The Nazis didn’t take drugs,” because, you know, when you grow up in Germany you get educated about the Nazis quite intensely, especially in West Germany.
你应该写一下这一点。”我说，“纳粹不吸毒”，因为，你知道，当你在德国长大时，你会受到非常强烈的纳粹教育，尤其是在西德。
They teach you everything, but they don’t teach you drugs.
他们教你一切，但他们不教你毒品。
Now they do, maybe, you know.
现在他们可能这样做了，你知道。
But it was not known, so, and the Nazis always had this aura of being law and order.
但人们并不知道，所以，纳粹总是有这种法律和秩序的光环。
No drugs, of course.
当然，没有毒品。
No chaos.
没有混乱。
Everything…
一切……
34:15 My grandfather, he was a Nazi, always said, “Well, at least there was discipline in the country.
我的祖父是一名纳粹分子，他总是说：“好吧，至少这个国家有纪律。
There was law and order.” So this doesn’t match with drugs, you know?
有法律和秩序。”所以这与毒品不相符，你知道吗？
You know, I should also say I think that’s the experience for a lot of people.
你知道，我还应该说，我认为这是很多人的经历。
34:24 Before reading your book, I had the same kind of feeling that the Nazi ideology was all about law and order and purity, and surely they would not be doing drugs.
在读你的书之前，我有同样的感觉，纳粹意识形态都是关于法律、秩序和纯洁的，他们肯定不会吸毒。
So this really blew my mind.
所以这真的让我大吃一惊。
I think I wasn’t quite ready, similar to Richard Evans.
我想我还没有准备好，就像理查德·埃文斯一样。
This is a big, like, okay, a narrative transforming into a deeper, more complicated understanding what Nazi forces and the Hitler inner circle actually looked like.
这是一个宏大的叙事，转变为对纳粹势力和希特勒核心圈子实际上是什么样子的更深入、更复杂的理解。
That’s why I didn’t believe Alex.
这就是为什么我不相信亚历克斯。
Always take the DJ, the drug expert, with a grain of salt.
始终对 DJ、毒品专家持保留态度。
I didn’t believe him, but I said, “It’s a great topic.
我不相信他，但我说：“这是一个很棒的话题。
35:07 Maybe I could invent it.” He said, “No, we don’t invent this.
也许我可以发明它。”他说：“不，我们没有发明这个。
This is real.” And I said, “How do you know?” And he said, “I have a friend,” and I know this guy by now.
这是真的。”我说：“你怎么知道？”他说，“我有一个朋友，”我现在认识这个人了。
I met him.
我遇见了他。
He’s an antique dealer in Berlin, and he had bought an old medicine chest in an old Berlin apartment.
他是柏林的一名古董商，他在柏林的一间旧公寓里买了一个旧药箱。
This was in 2010, and he found Pervitin tablets inside, which were the methamphetamine product that was marketed in Germany in the late ’30s.
那是在 2010 年，他在里面发现了 Pervitin 药片，这是 30 年代末在德国销售的甲基苯丙胺产品。
And this guy, the antique dealer, took some tablets, and they were quite old, you know, 70 years old, but they still had an effect on him.
这个古董商，吃了一些药片，它们已经很老了，你知道，70岁了，但它们仍然对他有影响。
And I later asked him and he said, “Well, we took them for about a month.
后来我问他，他说：“好吧，我们花了大约一个月的时间。
It was the greatest month we ever had.
这是我们度过的最棒的一个月。
Like, we had so much fun.” “We were so productive.”
就像，我们玩得很开心。” “我们的生产力非常高。”
35:54 ‘Cause that methamphetamine back then was also like a quality product.
因为当时的冰毒也像是一种优质产品。
It was not crystal meth made in a trailer lab, you know?
这不是拖车实验室制造的冰毒，你知道吗？
So this is many decades later.
所以这是几十年后的事了。
They were still potent.
他们仍然很强大。
They were still potent.
他们仍然很强大。
Alex especially convinced me because Alex has a high tolerance, and he said, “Okay, they still had some.” So I said to him, “Can I have some also?” And I took one, and he’s like, “And this was, we were standing in my writing tower, which is at the river in Berlin,” and he was like, “I took one, and I could feel something.
Alex特别说服了我，因为Alex的宽容度很高，他说：“好吧，他们还有一些。”于是我对他说：“我也可以吃一些吗？”我拿了一个，他说，“这是，我们站在我的写作塔里，它位于柏林河边，”他说，“我拿了一个，我能感觉到一些东西。
36:07 Then I took another one…” and then it’s, you know, I could feel more.
然后我又拿了一个……”然后，你知道，我能感受到更多。
And then I took a third one.
然后我又拍了第三张。
Typical Alex, he would take three, you know.
典型的亚历克斯，他会拿三个，你知道。
36:33 Instead of just taking one, he took three methamphetamine tablets from the ’40s, and he said, “And then I felt like…” and he looked at the river, and there was a big cargo ship going by, and he said, “I felt like this ship.” Suddenly there was this, “Shoop,” he said in German, like a motion that was like energy that was grabbing me, and I felt so powerful.
他没有只服用一颗，而是服用了三颗 40 年代的甲基苯丙胺药片，他说，“然后我感觉……”他看着河，有一艘大货船驶过，他说，“我感觉就像这艘船。”突然间，他用德语说道，“呼”，就像一种能量一样的动作抓住了我，我感到如此强大。
And he told me this, and I was like, “Wow, this is like…” And I Googled “methamphetamine Nazi Germany.” This was in 2010.
他告诉我这个，我当时想，“哇，这就像……”我在谷歌上搜索了“甲基苯丙胺纳粹德国”。这是2010年的事。
And there was this one professor at the university in Ulm who said, “The Blitzkrieg was only possible because of methamphetamine.” So I called up this guy, and he said, “Sure, I’ll meet you.” And then he gave me the signature for the archive.
乌尔姆大学的一位教授说：“闪电战之所以可能，只是因为甲基苯丙胺。”所以我打电话给这个人，他说：“当然，我会见你。”然后他给了我档案的签名。
37:14 Then I went to the archive, and then I really started to do my own research.
然后我去了档案馆，然后我才真正开始做我自己的研究。
And then I went to different archives, and I tried to find everything on Nazis and drugs.
然后我去了不同的档案馆，试图找到有关纳粹和毒品的一切。
And that came…
那来了……
Everything is in the book.
一切都在书里。
So that crazy meeting with Alex in my writing tower, that kind of got me on this research journey.
所以在我的写作塔里与亚历克斯的疯狂会面，让我踏上了这段研究之旅。
It makes me wonder what other mysteries like that are in the archives.
这让我想知道档案中还有哪些类似的谜团。
37:34 Do you think there’s stuff like that in there that we deeply don’t understand?
你认为里面有类似的东西是我们无法理解的吗？
I mean about, for example, there’s a bunch of mysteries that we think we understand, maybe about the concentration camps, maybe about the Eastern Front, the interplay between Stalin and Hitler.
我的意思是，例如，有很多我们认为我们了解的谜团，也许关于集中营，也许关于东线，关于斯大林和希特勒之间的相互作用。
Maybe, maybe about Britain, that could be discovered in the letters, in the data that were completely missing.
也许，也许关于英国，可以在信件中、在完全缺失的数据中发现这一点。
I think so.
我想是的。
38:07 And I think that also there are archives that are not open.
我认为也有一些档案没有开放。
Let’s say the Vatican archive.
比如说梵蒂冈档案馆。
Some secret archives that some very powerful structures have, structures that we might not even know now off the top of our head, which still have a huge influence.
一些非常强大的结构拥有的一些秘密档案，我们现在可能不知道的结构，它们仍然具有巨大的影响力。
So I think that human history is quite different from what most historians write.
所以我认为人类历史与大多数历史学家所写的有很大不同。
I think that’s just one version.
我认为这只是一个版本。
I think there are several versions, and I think that it goes much deeper and is much more interesting.
我认为有几个版本，而且我认为它更深入、更有趣。
And so, I guess, this history is a very active thing, which I also didn’t know.
所以，我想，这段历史是一个非常活跃的事情，而我也不知道。
You know, I was writing a historical nonfiction book, and I suddenly realized that this is like a shark pool because history defines the future or is very connected.
你知道，我当时正在写一本历史非小说类书籍，我突然意识到这就像一个鲨鱼池，因为历史定义了未来，或者说是紧密相连的。
39:03 Our history teacher always said, “If we don’t know where we come from, we cannot know where we go.” And that is, I think, true.
我们的历史老师总是说：“如果我们不知道我们从哪里来，我们就不知道我们要去哪里。”我认为这是真的。
That is what I’m now really interested in for my next book.
这就是我现在对下一本书真正感兴趣的内容。
I’m trying to really understand human history.
我正在努力真正了解人类历史。
And obviously, I’m not the first.
显然，我不是第一个。
There are a few, you know, alternative historians that go like…
你知道，有一些另类历史学家喜欢……
Because you have to go back in time quite a bit, and then it’s not easy to write about it, but it’s very interesting to think about.
因为你必须回到很久以前，然后写起来并不容易，但思考起来很有趣。
And I would love to find the truth on Atlantis, which I don’t believe in actually, and we can also talk about that.
我很想找到亚特兰蒂斯的真相，虽然我实际上并不相信这一点，但我们也可以讨论这一点。
But maybe there’s an archive where we can actually see that they had this king ruling.
但也许有一个档案，我们实际上可以看到他们有这位国王的统治。
39:41 I don’t think this could be found, but I think we can still also find a lot of documents, but I think especially in closed archives.
我不认为这是可以找到的，但我认为我们仍然可以找到很多文件，但我认为特别是在封闭的档案中。
So we won’t find them.
所以我们不会找到他们。
You said a lot of really interesting things.
你说了很多非常有趣的话。
39:51 It’s so important to have people like you that do the daring work of going to the archives, the sources, the evidence, and trying to find a thing that completely transforms history as we thought we understood it.
让像你这样的人进行大胆的工作，去查阅档案、资料来源、证据，并试图找到一个我们认为我们所理解的完全改变历史的东西是非常重要的。
That’s revisionist history at its best.
这是最好的修正主义历史。
Revisionist history has a sort of negative connotation sometimes because you go to conspiratorial land without much evidence, and you’re just being a rebel for a rebel’s sake.
修正主义历史有时具有某种负面含义，因为你在没有太多证据的情况下就进入了阴谋之地，而你只是为了叛逆而叛逆。
But when you ground it in data and dare to challenge the historical narrative, that’s really powerful.
但当你以数据为基础并敢于挑战历史叙述时，那就真的很强大了。
So now, I should also mention that we’ve been just laying out the context.
所以现在，我还应该提到，我们只是在阐述背景。
Yeah.
是的。
40:37 We’re still in the context phase.
我们仍处于背景阶段。
Context phase.
上下文阶段。
40:39 And for the next 10 hours, and maybe for the rest of our lives, we will be continuing just setting the context.
在接下来的 10 个小时里，也许在我们的余生中，我们将继续设定背景。
But let us dare return to the original question of Pervitin.
但让我们大胆回到珀维丁最初的问题。
How did that come about?
这是怎么发生的？
Take me to 1930s Nazi Germany.
带我到 20 世纪 30 年代的纳粹德国。
The Munich and the Berlin tension that we all laid out beautifully.
我们都完美地展现了慕尼黑和柏林的紧张局势。
How did Pervitin come into the picture?
Pervitin 是如何出现的？
Well, the Nazis managed to grab power on January 30th, 1933, and they immediately became an anti-drug regime.
嗯，纳粹在 1933 年 1 月 30 日成功夺取政权，他们立即成为一个反毒品政权。
41:03 That is important to them because the only intoxication they allowed from now on in Germany is the Nazi intoxication, it’s the ideological intoxication.
这对他们来说很重要，因为从现在起他们在德国唯一允许的陶醉就是纳粹陶醉，这是意识形态的陶醉。
So they quickly installed concentration camps, which were at the time run by the SA, not the SS, which takes over later and turns the concentration camps into an industry.
因此，他们很快建立了集中营，这些集中营当时由冲锋队而不是党卫军管理，后来党卫军接管并将集中营变成了一个产业。
The first SA concentration camps were in cellars in Berlin or in the countryside.
第一个冲锋队集中营位于柏林或乡村的地窖中。
And some of the first people that landed in these cellars and were disciplined were drug users.
第一批进入这些地窖并受到纪律处分的人中有一些是吸毒者。
Also, anti-Semitic policies which were very important from day one for the Nazis.
此外，反犹太政策从一开始对纳粹来说就非常重要。
Anti-Semitism is the defining pillar of national socialism.
反犹太主义是国家社会主义的决定性支柱。
42:05 The core of it, really.
它的核心，确实如此。
They quickly connected anti-drug policies with anti-Semitic policies.
他们很快将反毒品政策与反犹太政策联系起来。
They claimed the German Jews were taking more drugs than the non-Jewish Germans.
他们声称德国犹太人比非犹太德国人吸食更多毒品。
And National Socialism’s goal was to purify the German body.
国家社会主义的目标是净化德国人的身体。
So they saw the whole Volk, the country, the people, as one body, and that has to be purified so all Jews are poison.
因此，他们将整个民族、国家、人民视为一个整体，必须对其进行净化，以便所有犹太人都是毒药。
But not only Jews, everyone who thinks differently.
但不仅仅是犹太人，所有有不同想法的人都是如此。
Communists are also poison.
共产党人也是毒药。
Jews are the worst poison, but, you know, a lot of, you know…
犹太人是最严重的毒药，但是，你知道，很多，你知道……
Yeah, and then you create this clean body.
是的，然后你创造了这个干净的身体。
And obviously drugs have no position in that.
显然毒品在这方面没有地位。
If you’re addicted to drugs, that’s weak, you know, you’re a morphinist.
如果你对毒品上瘾，那是很弱的，你知道，你是吗啡瘾君子。
42:56 You use cocaine, that’s all degenerate, that’s Jewish, that’s…
你使用可卡因，那都是堕落的，那是犹太人的，那是……
Jewish doctors are all morphinists, you know?
犹太医生都是吗啡瘾君子，你知道吗？
So Nazi Germany and Hitler were the shining examples of a person who doesn’t take drugs.
因此，纳粹德国和希特勒是不吸毒的光辉典范。
He didn’t have a private life, he didn’t even have a body.
他没有私人生活，甚至没有身体。
He just led the Volksbody, you know?
他刚刚领导了国民党，你知道吗？
So Hitler was not putting any poisons into him.
所以希特勒并没有给他下任何毒药。
He stopped smoking cigarettes in the ’20s already.
他在二十多岁时就已经戒烟了。
He never touched alcohol.
他从不碰酒精。
Vegetarian.
素食。
…vegetarian, no caffeine even.
……素食，甚至不含咖啡因。
43:33 So he was…
所以他是……
That’s what he was in the beginning.
这就是他一开始的样子。
The story, of course, changes at a certain point in time, but he started as this.
当然，故事在某个时间点会发生变化，但他是这样开始的。
As far as you understand, that’s true?
据你了解，这是真的吗？
43:47 The beginning?
开始？
Yeah, I’m pretty sure.
是的，我很确定。
43:50 I’m pretty sure that this is true.
我很确定这是真的。
Also, vegetarianism was a right-wing thing in Germany.
此外，素食主义在德国是右翼事物。
It was an elitist thing.
这是精英主义的事情。
If you were a vegetarian, you had a higher frequency, which kind of gave you superiority over, let’s say, these workers who need to eat the sausage so you can, you know, do the work.
如果你是素食主义者，你的频率就会更高，这让你比那些需要吃香肠的工人更有优势，这样你就可以，你知道，做这项工作。
Like Wagner, the composer, he was vegetarian.
和作曲家瓦格纳一样，他也是素食主义者。
Hitler was impressed by Wagner.
瓦格纳给希特勒留下了深刻的印象。
So vegetarianism, all…
所以素食主义，所有...
I think that’s all true.
我认为这都是真的。
I think Hitler was like that.
我想希特勒就是这样的人。
And it’s hard to be like that actually, and I think that gave him an attraction inside the movement to all the drunkards, like Goering using morphine all the time because of his pain.
实际上很难做到这一点，我认为这让他在运动中对所有醉汉产生了吸引力，就像戈林因为疼痛而一直使用吗啡一样。
He got used to morphine, so they were…
他已经习惯了吗啡，所以他们……
44:37 The movement wasn’t like this, but he was like this.
动作不是这样的，但他却是这样的。
So he symbolized that whole approach of cleanliness, like purity.
所以他象征着整个清洁的方式，比如纯洁。
So then how does methamphetamine come into the picture?
那么甲基苯丙胺是如何出现的呢？
It’s totally absurd.
这完全是荒谬的。
That’s why I thought it was fun researching this, because it doesn’t make sense, you know?
这就是为什么我认为研究这个很有趣，因为它没有意义，你知道吗？
And, you know, they use this simple trick by defining what is an illegal drug and what is not.
而且，你知道，他们使用这个简单的技巧来定义什么是非法药物，什么不是非法药物。
Because drugs don’t have it written on them, “This is an illegal, dangerous drug.” You know, drugs are basically neutral.
因为药品上没有写“这是一种非法的危险药物”。要知道，药物基本上是中性的。
These are molecules, you know?
这些是分子，你知道吗？
So the methamphetamine molecule was found in a Berlin-based company called the Temmler Company.
因此，甲基苯丙胺分子是在柏林一家名为 Temmler 公司的公司中发现的。
45:23 And the head of Temmler, he was very upset with the Olympics in 1936 because an Afro-American athlete, Jesse Owens, was running faster than German superheroes with the best genes, you know?
特姆勒的负责人，他对 1936 年奥运会非常不满，因为美国黑人运动员杰西·欧文斯（Jesse Owens）跑得比拥有最好基因的德国超级英雄还快，你知道吗？
How could this be?
怎么会这样？
So they thought that he was on something, because he won, I think, five gold medals.
所以他们认为他有所作为，因为我认为他赢得了五枚金牌。
It was ridiculous.
这太荒谬了。
You know, these were supposed to be Germany’s games, and then the Afro-American runs better than the Aryan ubermensch.
你知道，这些本来应该是德国队的比赛，然后这位非裔美国人跑得比雅利安超级人跑得更好。
So the only explanation is he took a drug.
所以唯一的解释就是他吸毒了。
He took probably Benzedrine, which was an illegal amphetamine, and also there were no doping checks at the Olympics.
他可能服用了苯丙胺，这是一种非法安非他明，而且奥运会上也没有进行兴奋剂检查。
And if you’re taking amphetamine, of course you can run a bit faster maybe, when it kicks in.
如果你正在服用安非他明，当然，当它开始发挥作用时，你也许可以跑得更快一点。
46:16 That this has to do with the immense release of dopamine in the brain.
这与大脑中多巴胺的大量释放有关。
But it was never proven that Owens used any type of drugs, but the head of the Temmler Company, he said, “We have to prevent this.
但从未证明欧文斯使用了任何类型的药物，但泰姆勒公司的负责人说，“我们必须阻止这种情况发生。
We have to invent a better amphetamine.
我们必须发明一种更好的安非他明。
We have to make a German amphetamine that is stronger than the American Benzedrine.” So his main chemist, Fritz Hauschild, he did research and he found that in 1917, in Tokyo, a Japanese chemist had made methamphetamine, and he remade that methamphetamine and they tested it among themselves, the chemists in the Berlin pharmaceutical lab, and they loved it.
我们必须制造一种比美国苯丙胺更强的德国安非他明。”因此，他的主要化学家弗里茨·豪斯柴尔德（Fritz Hauschild）进行了研究，他发现 1917 年，在东京，一位日本化学家制造了甲基苯丙胺，他重新制造了甲基苯丙胺，他们在柏林制药实验室的化学家之间进行了测试，他们很喜欢它。
Like, they made pure methamphetamine, and, you know, they had a really good time, and they were more active, they were talkative.
就像，他们制造纯甲基苯丙胺，而且，你知道，他们玩得很开心，而且他们更活跃，更健谈。
47:07 Because that’s what happens with methamphetamine.
因为这就是甲基苯丙胺所发生的情况。
So the company really thought this is a great product, and they turned it into a product, they went to the patent bureaucracy and got the patent for methamphetamine, and then it quite quickly came onto the market.
所以该公司真的认为这是一个很棒的产品，他们把它变成了一个产品，他们去了专利官僚机构并获得了甲基苯丙胺的专利，然后它很快就进入了市场。
It was labeled as Pervitin, which is kind of a great name, because it has the perverse already in it.
它被标记为 Pervitin，这是一个很棒的名字，因为它已经包含了反常的成分。
And this Pervitin was available in any pharmacy, so you didn’t need a prescription.
这种 Pervitin 在任何药店都有售，所以你不需要处方。
A child could go and buy 10 packs of pure methamphetamine.
一个孩子可以去买10包纯冰毒。
So methamphetamine was also very cheap, so it became quite popular because people, you know, talked about it.
因此，甲基苯丙胺也非常便宜，因此它变得非常受欢迎，因为人们，你知道，谈论它。
Did they understand the, the side effects and negative effects of me- methamphetamine?
他们了解甲基苯丙胺的副作用和负面影响吗？
47:44 Did they care?
他们关心吗？
They didn’t really know what it was.
他们真的不知道那是什么。
47:49 I mean, I also read, I went to the archive of that company also, of course.
我的意思是，我也读过，当然我也去了那家公司的档案馆。
So they were like, “What is it good for?” Like, “I just feel great when I take it and I have more energy,” and they didn’t know if that could be a product.
所以他们会问，“这有什么好处？”就像，“当我服用它时，我感觉很棒，并且我有更多的能量”，他们不知道这是否可以成为一种产品。
It was 1937, ’38 when they were discovering it.
他们发现它的时候是 1937、38 年。
But also, did they…
但同时，他们是否……
48:08 How did they think about the fact that this is a drug?
他们如何看待这是一种药物这一事实？
Well, they called it a performance enhancer.
嗯，他们称之为性能增强器。
Got it.
知道了。
Is drinking a coffee in the morning a drug?
早上喝咖啡有毒品吗？
48:18 I mean, it is a drug, but we don’t think of it as a drug, you know?
我的意思是，它是一种药物，但我们不认为它是一种药物，你知道吗？
It’s legal.
这是合法的。
And this was kind of how meth was treated in Germany.
这就是德国对待冰毒的方式。
It was normal to use it.
用起来很正常。
Like, you had a very important business meeting, of course you would take a Pervitin.
比如，你有一个非常重要的商务会议，你当然会服用 Pervitin。
There’s a movie by Billy Wilder called “One, Two, Three,” a very good movie, and he shows…
比利·怀尔德有一部电影叫《一、二、三》，一部非常好的电影，他展示了……
the American executive, the movie was set right after the end of the Second World War.
这位美国高管，这部电影的背景是第二次世界大战刚结束后。
So we see, I think it’s a Coca-Cola executive, American, and he says to his secretary, “How should I have the morning coffee?
所以我们看到，我认为这是一位可口可乐高管，美国人，他对他的秘书说：“我早上应该怎么喝咖啡？
I think half of a Pervitin.” So Pervitin was also normal, it wasn’t stigmatized.
我认为是半个 Pervitin。”所以Pervitin也是正常的，没有被污名化。
It wasn’t the American “just say no” propaganda, where your teeth fall out and…
这不是美国的“只说不”宣传，你的牙齿会掉下来......
49:11 I mean, it was a German quality product, people liked it.
我的意思是，这是德国品质的产品，人们喜欢它。
Of course, they did tests at universities, like…
当然，他们在大学做了测试，比如……
But most of them were quite positive.
但他们中的大多数人都非常积极。
Like, yeah, it reduces your fear.
就像，是的，它减少了你的恐惧。
Today, we might, you know, look for different things, but this was also a performance-driven, totalitarian society moving towards war.
今天，你知道，我们可能会寻找不同的东西，但这也是一个绩效驱动的、走向战争的极权社会。
So if someone takes Pervitin and says in the clinical tests at university, “I’m not afraid of anything anymore.” So that’s positive.
因此，如果有人服用 Pervitin 并在大学的临床测试中说，“我不再害怕任何事情了。”所以这是积极的。
That’s actually what got the guy who worked for the German army interested, because he read university reports, like I also saw all of these reports.
这实际上是让为德国军队工作的人感兴趣的原因，因为他阅读了大学报告，就像我也看到了所有这些报告一样。
They were also in the military archive.
它们也在军事档案中。
So he’s like, “Okay, you’re not afraid anymore if you take methamphetamine.
所以他说，“好吧，如果你服用甲基苯丙胺，你就不再害怕了。
You don’t need to sleep anymore.
你不需要再睡觉了。
49:56 You don’t need to eat so much, because your appetite is lowered.” Like, this is perfect for a soldier.
你不需要吃那么多，因为你的食欲降低了。”就像，这对于士兵来说是完美的。
So negative effects only became public in 1940, when the first Pervitin opponent, who was actually a relative of Albert Speer, Hitler’s architect and later arms minister, this Speer psychologist, he was the first one who said, “Wait a minute.
因此负面影响直到 1940 年才被公之于众，当时第一个佩尔维丁的反对者，实际上是希特勒的建筑师、后来的军备部长阿尔伯特·施佩尔的亲戚，这位施佩尔的心理学家，他是第一个说：“等一下。
First of all, methamphetamine is against the Nazi ideology, because now we’re all taking a drug to be high performers.
首先，甲基苯丙胺是反对纳粹意识形态的，因为现在我们都在服用药物来成为高绩效者。
We have to be high performers without a drug.” And he also said, “You know the obvious, this is going to make you addicted,” et cetera.
我们必须在不使用药物的情况下表现出色。”他还说，“你知道显而易见的事情，这会让你上瘾，”等等。
“This will, you know, create a tolerance.” So only then the first negative reports came out.
“你知道，这会产生宽容。”于是直到那时，第一批负面报道才出来。
50:44 Before that, what Temmler did and then what the universities did, they all thought methamphetamine was really good.
在此之前，泰姆勒所做的事情以及后来大学所做的事情，他们都认为冰毒真的很好。
So what was the process of convincing the German military, the Wehrmacht army, to use it at scale?
那么说服德国军队、国防军大规模使用它的过程是怎样的呢？
Well, Professor Ranke was employed by the army, so it was his job to find things that would improve the performance of the German soldier.
兰克教授受雇于军队，所以他的工作就是寻找能够提高德国士兵表现的东西。
50:59 I always imagined him like a James Bond character, like Q who develops gadgets and stuff, because he also developed gadgets.
我一直把他想象成詹姆斯·邦德的角色，就像开发小玩意之类的 Q，因为他也开发了小玩意。
So he was quite a…
所以说他是一个相当……
You know, he was an academic, but he was also a soldier, you know?
你知道，他是一名学者，但他也是一名军人，你知道吗？
He was employed, but he was basically running this institute, examining it, and he was so convinced that Pervitin is the answer to his question, how to beat the main opponent of the German soldier.
他被雇用了，但他基本上是在管理这个研究所，对其进行研究，他非常确信佩尔维丁是他问题的答案，即如何击败德国士兵的主要对手。
And that was not the British soldier, not the French soldier, not the Russian soldier.
那不是英国士兵，不是法国士兵，也不是俄罗斯士兵。
That was fatigue.
那是疲劳。
He had been looking for a way to keep a soldier awake longer.
他一直在寻找一种让士兵保持更长时间清醒的方法。
51:48 So when he read these reports from universities, he did his own tests in the military academy with young medical officers.
因此，当他读到大学的这些报告时，他自己在军校和年轻的医务人员一起进行了测试。
They came together at 8:00 PM in the evening, and then they received either methamphetamine, a caffeine pill or a placebo, or Benzedrine.
他们在晚上 8:00 聚在一起，然后服用甲基苯丙胺、咖啡因药丸或安慰剂，或者苯丙胺。
Like they had different experiments, and he always concluded at the end, like, they started at 8:00 PM and like at 10:00 AM in the morning, one time he notes the Pervitin people still want to go out and party, while the caffeine guys are sleeping on the bench and the…
就像他们进行了不同的实验，他总是在最后得出结论，比如，他们从晚上 8:00 开始，早上 10:00 开始，有一次他注意到 Pervitin 的人仍然想出去聚会，而咖啡因的人却睡在长凳上，而……
You know, it was clear that Pervitin is the strongest.
要知道，很明显帕维丁是最强的。
It gives you the most energy, lets you work for the longest time.
它给你最大的能量，让你工作最长时间。
52:30 So he was convinced, but his superior, like the surgeon general of the German army, he was like an old-school dude, and he didn’t even react to these, like…
所以他深信不疑，但他的上级，就像德国军队的军医长，他就像一个老派的家伙，他甚至对这些都没有反应，就像……
Ranke would write letters, “We have to use this synthetic drug in the next campaign,” which was against Poland, which he knew about.
兰克会写信说，“我们必须在下一场战役中使用这种合成药物”，这场战役是针对他所了解的波兰的。
And because Pervitin was quite known in the civil society, people were using it already, so he said, he even said, “A lot of soldiers will just take it with them, and we should control that.
因为 Pervitin 在民间社会中很出名，人们已经在使用它了，所以他说，他甚至说，“很多士兵都会随身携带它，我们应该控制它。
We should make it an official drug.” But the surgeon general didn’t understand.
我们应该将其列为官方药物。”但卫生局局长不明白。
He didn’t reply.
他没有回答。
So Germany attacked Poland without a clear regulatory system on methamphetamine, and indeed, a lot of soldiers used it.
因此，德国在没有明确的甲基苯丙胺监管体系的情况下袭击了波兰，而且确实有很多士兵使用了它。
53:15 And what Ranke then did was he requested from all of the medical officers in the field in Poland…
兰克随后所做的就是他向波兰现场的所有医务人员提出请求……
The war was over after a few weeks, so…
几周后战争结束了，所以……
But the German army was occupying Poland.
但德国军队正在占领波兰。
He said, “Send me all back reports, and tell me what…
他说：“把所有的报告发给我，并告诉我……
Did your people take Pervitin and what were the effects?” And he collected all these reports, which are also studied in the military archive, and he came to the conclusion, “This is a really good fighting drug.” And it probably is, because people are still using it today.
你们的人服用了 Pervitin 吗？效果如何？”他收集了所有这些报告，也在军事档案中进行了研究，他得出的结论是：“这真是一种很好的战斗药物。”很可能是这样，因为人们今天仍在使用它。
Methamphetamine is still being used, and Ranke discovered this.
甲基苯丙胺仍在使用，兰克发现了这一点。
He had everything in front of him.
他面前拥有一切。
And Poland was beaten, and then Hitler wanted to attack the West.
而波兰被打败了，然后希特勒又想进攻西方。
53:54 And the West was a different story than Poland, because the West was the world empire of Great Britain combined with La Grande Armée, the strongest army in the world, the French army.
西方的情况与波兰不同，因为西方是大不列颠的世界帝国，加上世界上最强大的军队法国军队。
These two combined, you know, how can you win that?
这两者结合起来，你知道，你怎么能赢呢？
Poland, they could overpower.
波兰，他们可以压倒。
They had, you know, better army than Poland.
你知道，他们拥有比波兰更好的军队。
But is the German Wehrmacht really better than both of these armies combined?
但德国国防军真的比这两个军队加起来更好吗？
His officers didn’t think so.
他的军官们不这么认为。
High command said, “No, we’re not going to attack the West; we’re going to lose.” And Hitler was fanatic about it, he really wanted to attack it.
最高指挥部说：“不，我们不会攻击西方；我们会失败。”希特勒对此非常狂热，他真的很想攻击它。
They were planning a coup against him in November 1939 just to prevent him ordering the attack on the West, because it would have been a catastrophe for Germany.
他们计划在 1939 年 11 月发动政变反对他，只是为了阻止他下令进攻西方，因为这对德国来说将是一场灾难。
Because they really cared, you know?
因为他们真的很关心，你知道吗？
54:41 If you’re a high command, you don’t want to start a war that you’re going to lose, you know?
如果你是高级指挥官，你不想发动一场你会失败的战争，你知道吗？
Very bad.
非常糟糕。
Can you just briefly give a sense of, do you think this is genius or insanity on Hitler’s part to think that he can take on probably what’s perceived to be the most powerful military in the world, which is the French military, or at least in Europe?
您能否简单地说明一下，您认为希特勒认为他可以对抗可能被认为是世界上最强大的军队，即法国军队，或者至少在欧洲，这是天才还是疯狂？
I think his hatred for the French was very, very deep.
我认为他对法国人的仇恨非常非常深。
55:06 He really, he really wanted to go to war with them.
他真的、他真的很想和他们开战。
It was an ideological, irrational decision.
这是一个意识形态上的、非理性的决定。
That’s why he was not…
这就是为什么他不……
He didn’t hate the empire.
他并不讨厌帝国。
He kind of looked down, he admired it and looked down on it.
他有点低头，他欣赏它，又瞧不起它。
You mean the British Empire?
你说的是大英帝国吗？
Yeah.
是的。
55:24 But the French he really hated, and France had been the Erzfeind, the genetic enemy of the German people, at least right-wingers would say so.
但他真正讨厌的是法国人，法国一直是德国人民的宿敌，至少右翼分子会这么说。
There had been two wars.
曾经发生过两次战争。
The first one Germany had won, then World War I, Germany had lost.
第一次世界大战德国赢了，然后第一次世界大战德国输了。
So Hitler wanted to kind of revenge and also stop the Versailles Treaty, so he really needed to attack the West, at least in his mindset.
所以希特勒想要报复并阻止凡尔赛条约，所以他确实需要攻击西方，至少在他的心态上是这样。
But it was an irrational decision, and that’s why high command said, “No, we’re not going to do it,” basically.
但这是一个非理性的决定，这就是为什么高级指挥部基本上说：“不，我们不会这样做”。
And Hitler’s position at the time was not that he could do anything he wanted.
而希特勒当时的立场并不是他可以为所欲为。
I mean, high command is still a high command of the German Wehrmacht.
我的意思是，最高指挥部仍然是德国国防军的最高指挥部。
That’s a very old, you know, it’s a tradition.
这是一个非常古老的传统。
It’s…
这是……
They do whatever they want, you know?
他们为所欲为，你知道吗？
56:13 But also, they have to obey Hitler’s orders.
但同时，他们也必须服从希特勒的命令。
So it’s a power struggle, basically.
所以这基本上是一场权力斗争。
But to invade France was a totally stupid idea, but it changed in the morning.
但入侵法国是一个完全愚蠢的想法，但到了早上就改变了。
On the morning of February 17th, 1940, Hitler invited three young tank generals to his office, and they had a plan, which was the plan to go through the Ardennes Mountains.
1940年2月17日早上，希特勒邀请三位年轻的坦克将军到他的办公室，他们有一个计划，那就是穿越阿登山脉的计划。
That was the victorious idea.
这就是胜利的想法。
So it’s not the drugs.
所以不是药物的问题。
Actually, that idea to go through the Ardennes Mountains, if you think monocausal, you would say that’s the reason.
事实上，穿越阿登山脉的想法，如果你认为是单因的，你会说这就是原因。
That idea was genius, and Hitler immediately understood it, because before, the plan was to attack in the north of Belgium, which is the same as World War I.
这个想法太天才了，希特勒立刻就明白了，因为之前的计划是攻击比利时北部，这和第一次世界大战是一样的。
You…
你……
56:56 It becomes a stalemate, and they fight for months, and no one really moves, and it’s bloody, and nothing’s happening.
双方陷入了僵局，他们打了几个月，没有人真正行动，血淋淋的，什么也没有发生。
It’s bad.
这很糟糕。
But that was the only plan that they had.
但这是他们唯一的计划。
That’s why the high command said, “No, we’re not going to do it.
这就是为什么最高指挥部说：“不，我们不会这样做。
It’s stupid.” But these three tank generals, they somehow were able to sneak into Hitler’s office, and they said, “Look, if we go with the whole army through the Ardennes Mountains,” and Hitler said, “Eh, this is not possible.
这太愚蠢了。”但这三个坦克将军，他们不知何故能够潜入希特勒的办公室，他们说，“看，如果我们带着全军穿过阿登山脉，”希特勒说，“呃，这是不可能的。
This is like a mountain range.
这就像一座山脉。
57:22 How can the whole German army fit through this eye of a needle, basically?” And they said, “No, we can do it because everyone misunderstands what tanks can do.” Tanks are not slow machines in the back that kind of wait for the action to happen and then, you know, support this somehow.
基本上整个德国军队怎么能穿过这个针眼呢？”他们说：“不，我们能做到，因为每个人都误解了坦克的功能。”坦克并不是落后的缓慢机器，等待行动发生，然后，你知道，以某种方式支持这一行动。
“We’re going to use tanks in the front as race cars, basically.
“基本上，我们将使用前面的坦克作为赛车。
We’re going to overpower the enemy.
我们将战胜敌人。
We’re going to be in France before the French, who are stationed with the British in northern Belgium and also on the Maginot Line, but not really in the Ardennes Mountains.
我们将在法国人之前到达法国，法国人与英国人一起驻扎在比利时北部以及马其诺防线上，但实际上并不是在阿登山脉。
That was hardly fortified because no one could imagine that Germany would go through there.
那里几乎没有设防，因为没有人能想象德国会通过那里。
And before they know it, we are already behind them, basically.”
在他们意识到之前，我们基本上已经落后于他们了。”
58:09 We are already in France, and they’re still hanging out in northern Belgium because it takes quite a while, you know, to travel.
我们已经在法国了，他们仍然在比利时北部闲逛，因为你知道，旅行需要很长时间。
This was a different time also.
这也是一个不同的时期。
So he was convinced, and he then ordered the attack.
于是他深信不疑，于是下令进攻。
The attack would happen, and that is then…
攻击将会发生，然后……
But it would only work if you would reach Sedan, the border city of France, within three days and three nights.
但要在三天三夜之内到达法国边境城市色当才行。
So the whole army, or at least, you know, the avant-garde of the machinery had to be a big part of the army, had to be in Sedan after three days and three nights.
所以整个军队，或者至少，你知道，机械前卫必须是军队的一大部分，必须在三天三夜之后到达色当。
And that was only possible if you don’t stop, and that was the problem.
只有你不停下来，这才有可能，而这就是问题所在。
The sleep was really then…
那时的睡眠真的是……
58:51 Suddenly became a huge problem, and Hitler said, “When I was fighting in World War I, of course I could stay awake for a week.
突然成了一个大问题，希特勒说，“当我在一战中作战时，我当然可以一周不睡觉。
I’m a German.” You know, even though he’s not even German, he’s Austrian.
我是德国人。”你知道，尽管他不是德国人，但他是奥地利人。
But that was a problem, but suddenly Ranke realized that his moment had come because he had the recipe how people could stay awake for three days and three nights.
但这是一个问题，但兰克突然意识到他的时刻已经到来，因为他有让人三天三夜不睡觉的秘诀。
So Ranke suddenly became…
于是兰克突然变得……
Before that, he was kind of an outsider, like the freak with the drug idea.
在此之前，他有点像个局外人，就像一个有毒品想法的怪胎。
Suddenly, he became like, “Okay, tell us, how does it work?” And he gave lectures in front of the officers, and he wrote a stimulant decree where a whole army is prescribed a drug, in this case methamphetamine.
突然，他变得像，“好吧，告诉我们，它是如何运作的？”他在军官面前发表演讲，还写了一项兴奋剂法令，规定全军都开出一种药物，在这种情况下是甲基苯丙胺。
How much should be taken?
应该服用多少？
At what intervals?
以什么间隔进行？
What are the side effects?
有什么副作用？
So this was a…
所以这是一个……
59:41 This became a very big thing.
这成了一件非常大的事情。
And then Temmler had to deliver 35 million dosages to the front lines, which were…
然后 Temmler 必须向前线运送 3500 万剂药物，这些是……
No, not the front yet.
不，还没有到前面。
I mean, they were stationed in the west of Germany, and then on May 10th, they took their methamphetamine, and they started the surprise attack through the Ardennes Mountains.
我的意思是，他们驻扎在德国西部，然后在5月10日，他们拿着冰毒，开始穿越阿登山脉的突然袭击。
So the 35 million dosages for the French campaign, I mean, we could probably talk for many hours about this particular campaign because it is, I think it’s fair to say, the most successful military campaign from the German side.
因此，我的意思是，法国战役中的 3500 万剂药物，我们可能可以花很多时间谈论这一特定战役，因为我认为可以公平地说，这是德国方面最成功的军事战役。
Ended with a big mistake, Dunkirk.
以一个大错误结束，敦刻尔克。
1:00:19 It was brilliant up until that point.
直到那时为止，它都是辉煌的。
That is the turning point.
这就是转折点。
That was the first big mistake Hitler did, and it also had to do with drugs.
这是希特勒犯下的第一个大错误，而且还与毒品有关。
We’ll talk about it, but let’s just linger on this three days.
我们会讨论它，但让我们在这三天里停留一下。
1:00:29 So we should also mention that’s where Blitzkrieg really shined.
所以我们还应该提到，这就是闪电战真正的亮点。
So it wasn’t just the tanks, it was the infantry, it was the aircraft moving very fast behind the French lines.
所以不仅仅是坦克，还有步兵，还有在法国战线后方快速移动的飞机。
What can you speak to just the execution of that campaign and the role of drugs in it?
就该运动的执行情况以及毒品在其中的作用您能说些什么？
And it is, we should say, a really bold strategic decision to use meth.
我们应该说，使用冰毒是一个非常大胆的战略决定。
I mean, it’s a big risk.
我的意思是，这是一个很大的风险。
There are a lot of risks taken here, which could be seen as military genius or military insanity, or a mixture of both.
这里冒了很多风险，这些风险可以被视为军事天才或军事疯狂，或两者兼而有之。
Well, they were very lucky that it all worked out.
嗯，他们很幸运，一切顺利。
1:01:08 Like, it…
就像，它……
Also, the- the guys in the tanks could all have freaked out on the meth.
而且，坦克里的人可能都被冰毒吓坏了。
Because then it would…
因为那样的话就会……
It was never tested before, can you actually be in a combat situation, in a tank, in enemy territory on meth?
以前从未测试过，你真的可以在战斗情况下、在坦克里、在敌方领土上吸食冰毒吗？
Can people actually cope with that and be better fighters?
人们真的能应对这个问题并成为更好的战士吗？
Going through the mountains…
穿过群山……
It’s insane, yeah.
这太疯狂了，是的。
…against the biggest military in Europe.
......对抗欧洲最大的军队。
Well, what meth does is…
嗯，冰毒的作用是……
1:01:33 I read reports of a depressed atmosphere right before the attack started because they were afraid.
我在袭击开始前就读到了有关气氛压抑的报道，因为他们感到害怕。
They thought they would lose, they didn’t want that.
他们以为自己会输，但他们不希望这样。
You know, soldiers, maybe some really hardcore Nazi soldiers, but most people were just normal guys, you know?
你知道，士兵们，也许有一些真正的铁杆纳粹士兵，但大多数人只是普通人，你知道吗？
They didn’t want to start that.
他们不想开始。
But once they had the methamphetamine, it kind of…
但一旦他们有了甲基苯丙胺，就会……
you’re like in a party mood.
你就像在聚会一样。
So also when you’re in the tank, everyone likes it, you know?
所以当你在坦克里时，每个人都喜欢它，你知道吗？
It’s rather an uplifting thing, they were really getting into it and they really, you know, they started fighting then.
这是一件相当令人振奋的事情，他们真的很投入，而且他们真的，你知道，从那时起他们就开始战斗了。
It’s also intoxication, it’s a rush.
也是一种陶醉，一种匆忙。
What does meth feel like?
冰毒是什么感觉？
Well, meth creates the so-called fight or flight mode.
嗯，冰毒创造了所谓的战斗或逃跑模式。
1:02:19 So either you run…
所以要么你跑……
it releases all the neurotransmitters in the brain which are released in situations of high danger, for example.
例如，它会释放大脑中的所有神经递质，这些神经递质会在高度危险的情况下释放。
So in a highly dangerous situation, you become very alert, so you can cope with the situation.
所以在高度危险的情况下，你会变得非常警觉，这样你就能应对这种情况。
If you’re under life threat and you don’t even react to it, you’re probably going to be dead, you know?
如果你面临生命威胁而你甚至没有做出反应，你可能就会死，你知道吗？
But the body does that, and methamphetamine does that.
但身体会这样做，甲基苯丙胺也会这样做。
So you take a pill of methamphetamine or you snort a line of methamphetamine and you’re like…
所以你吃了一颗甲基苯丙胺药丸或者你吸了一根甲基苯丙胺，你就像……
and you’re like this, you’re like…
而你就像这样，你就像……
And then it’s the fight or flight mode.
然后是战斗或逃跑模式。
Either you run away like it’s too much, you know?
要么你就逃跑，就像这太过分了，你知道吗？
1:03:01 But on meth, you usually don’t run away.
但对于冰毒，你通常不会逃跑。
You kind of think it’s really cool what’s happening.
你觉得正在发生的事情真的很酷。
You like to move, you like to be with your pals, you like to, you know, being in a tank is great on meth.
你喜欢移动，你喜欢和你的朋友在一起，你喜欢，你知道，在坦克里对冰毒来说是很棒的。
So there is a party aspect to it?
那么这其中有政党的因素吗？
I think it was very joyful for the German soldiers because it was springtime.
我认为这对德国士兵来说是非常快乐的，因为现在是春天。
1:03:12 They had immediate successes.
他们立即取得了成功。
And it wasn’t heavy fighting; it was just being in the tank.
这并不是一场激烈的战斗；它只是在坦克里。
I mean, there was, of course, fighting, and there were also war crimes.
我的意思是，当然有战斗，也有战争罪。
I read a report when Rommel, high on meth, at night, doesn’t stop, of course, because they all, you know…
我读到一份报告，隆美尔在晚上吸食冰毒后，并没有停止，当然，因为他们都，你知道……
they didn’t stop at night, but every army usually stops at night.
他们不会在晚上停下来，但每支军队通常都会在晚上停下来。
So the French army was stopping, they were in a village camping out, and the German, Rommel, was going with the tank through that village with his division, just running over people.
法军停下来，他们在一个村庄里露营，而德国人隆美尔则带着他的师驾驶着坦克穿过那个村庄，碾压了人们。
And he was standing in the open lid of the tank and he was going through that thing, you know, like a berserk type of warrior.
他站在打开的罐盖里，他正在经历那件事，你知道，就像一个狂暴的战士。
1:04:01 And that was when…
就在那时……
that to me is a war crime.
对我来说这是一种战争罪。
That is when the Wehrmacht lost its innocence in that push of Rommel through the French countryside, because you don’t do that, you know?
就在那时，国防军在隆美尔穿过法国乡村的推动中失去了纯真，因为你不这样做，你知道吗？
Your enemy is sleeping.
你的敌人正在睡觉。
Because the French also had a drug regulation.
因为法国也有毒品管制。
They received three quarters of a liter of red wine per man per day.
他们每人每天收到四分之三升的红酒。
So, of course, at night they’re going to be sleepy on red wine, and the Germans were on meth and they were just running over them.
所以，当然，晚上他们喝红酒会犯困，而德国人则吸食冰毒，他们就从他们身上碾过。
There are descriptions of the chains of the tank becoming bloody.
有描述坦克的链条变得血腥。
I don’t think he did it and he was like, “Oh my God, what did I just do?
我不认为他这么做了，他就像是，“天啊，我刚刚做了什么？
I’m sorry.” You know, “What am I doing here?” He was in the movie, you know?
对不起。”你知道，“我在这里做什么？”他在电影里出现过，你知道吗？
This is the dark thing about human nature, that in war, if you dehumanize, if you allow your brain to dehumanize the enemy, the opponent, the humans on the other side, you can actually…
这就是人性的黑暗之处，在战争中，如果你非人化，如果你允许你的大脑非人化敌人、对手、另一边的人类，你实际上可以……
1:04:41 I think hate can take over, and in that hate you can find pleasure when you murder the other.
我认为仇恨可以占据主导地位，在仇恨中，当你谋杀对方时，你可以找到快乐。
And people have written about this, they’ve talked about this.
人们已经写过这个，他们已经谈论过这个。
It’s probably a thing that a person like me can’t possibly comprehend unless they experienced it.
这恐怕是我这种人不经历过就无法理解的事情。
And you have to be in the mania, in the hysteria, in the insanity intensity of war.
你必须处于战争的狂热、歇斯底里、疯狂强度之中。
I mean, what Evans, for example, said is that, “I excuse the Germans of the war crimes because they were just in an intoxication.” I understand that argument, but…
我的意思是，例如埃文斯所说的是，“我原谅德国人犯下的战争罪行，因为他们只是喝醉了。”我理解这个论点，但是……
1:05:21 And if you look at individual soldiers, it’s quite tricky.
如果你观察单个士兵，就会发现这是相当棘手的。
Like, it’s a 19-year-old guy, he’s been drafted.
就像，这是一个 19 岁的小伙子，他被征召入伍了。
And in Nazi Germany, if you don’t go, you land in the concentration camp.
在纳粹德国，如果你不去，你就会被关进集中营。
So you can choose, you know, concentration camp or you just join the ranks and then you get Pervitin and then you invade France.
所以你可以选择，你知道，集中营，或者你只是加入行列，然后你得到佩尔维丁，然后你入侵法国。
There was a trial in Germany because someone said all soldiers are murderers.
德国有一个审判，因为有人说所有士兵都是杀人犯。
And I think then the German Bundeswehr sued him.
我想德国联邦国防军随后起诉了他。
“No, soldiers are not murderers.” And he actually won in court.
“不，士兵不是杀人犯。”他实际上在法庭上赢了。
So it’s legal in Germany to call every soldier a murderer.
所以在德国称每个士兵都是杀人犯是合法的。
But it’s a tricky question.
但这是一个棘手的问题。
Yeah, I remember seeing this documentary on ordinary people.
是的，我记得看过一部关于普通人的纪录片。
1:06:12 I think there’s also social pressure.
我认为还有社会压力。
Again, insane it is to say, I think the documentary, “Ordinary People,” was looking at the Germans that were a part of the shooting squads.
再次，疯狂地说，我认为纪录片《普通人》正在关注射击队中的德国人。
And, you know, they didn’t understand what they were signing up for, and they were told that they’re free to leave once they understand what they’re doing, and many of them didn’t.
而且，你知道，他们不明白自己注册的目的是什么，他们被告知，一旦他们明白自己在做什么，就可以自由离开，但他们中的许多人并没有这样做。
And they didn’t have hate for Jews or for the people they’re murdering.
他们对犹太人或他们所谋杀的人没有仇恨。
You are, again, a 19, 20-year-old young kid; it’s so hard to comprehend the moral insanity that’s happening all around you and you just kind of want to fit in.
你又是一个19、20岁的年轻人；很难理解你周围发生的道德疯狂，而你只是想融入其中。
I mean, that’s why I wrote the book, “The Bohemians,” because there were a few people in Berlin that didn’t react this way, but they reacted in a different way.
我的意思是，这就是我写《波西米亚人》这本书的原因，因为柏林有一些人没有这样的反应，但他们的反应不同。
1:06:54 They said, “We cannot be part of this.” Um…
他们说：“我们不能参与其中。”嗯……
But it’s hard to be the person…
但做人却很难……
It’s very hard, yeah.
这很难，是的。
1:07:07 And most people are part of it because it’s much more safe, or at least it seems more safe.
大多数人都参与其中，因为它更安全，或者至少看起来更安全。
I mean, it has its own perils, you know, because you might become a genocidal murderer, you know.
我的意思是，它有其自身的危险，你知道，因为你可能会成为种族灭绝凶手。
That might happen.
这可能会发生。
And are you responsible?
而你有责任吗？
I would say you are responsible, but that’s just my personal gut feeling.
我想说你有责任，但这只是我个人的直觉。
I always thought my grandfather was responsible for the genocide because he was working for the German railway system, and he once saw a train car full of Jews in a cattle wagon, and he only said to me, “Yeah, this was against German railway regulations.” And I said, “So what did you do?” And he said, “Well, there were SS at the station when I was working, and I was too scared.
我一直认为我的祖父应对种族灭绝负责，因为他在德国铁路系统工作，有一次他看到一辆火车车厢里装满了犹太人，他只对我说，“是的，这违反了德国铁路规定。”我说：“那你做了什么？”他说：“嗯，我工作的时候车站里有党卫军，我太害怕了。
I didn’t do anything.” So I thought that he was…
我什么也没做。”所以我认为他是……
1:07:58 he made himself guilty, I thought.
我想，他让自己有罪了。
And my father, for example, reacted very strongly because of that.
例如，我的父亲因此反应非常强烈。
He never called him by his first name, the father of his wife, because he still had that, you know, he was a Nazi because he was working for the railway.
他从来不直呼他的名字，即他妻子的父亲，因为他仍然有这样的称呼，你知道，他是纳粹分子，因为他在铁路工作。
So I wouldn’t excuse…
所以我不会原谅……
I wouldn’t excuse people actually, and I certainly would not excuse high-ranking politicians that make policies because the genocidal policies that the Nazis developed and the war policies that they developed had nothing to do with drugs.
事实上，我不会原谅人们，我当然也不会原谅制定政策的高级政客，因为纳粹制定的种族灭绝政策和他们制定的战争政策与毒品无关。
And I never write that, you know, because there are no documents.
你知道，我从来不这么写，因为没有文件。
If I would find documents that say, “Yeah, when we…” you know, but the Nazi ideology has nothing to do with drugs.
如果我找到文件说，“是的，当我们……”你知道，但纳粹意识形态与毒品无关。
Maybe with alcohol, you know, but it’s…
也许是酒精，你知道，但它……
1:08:49 And I spoke with my father, who had been a high judge in Germany.
我和我的父亲进行了交谈，他曾是德国的高级法官。
What does the law actually say?
法律实际上是怎么说的？
And the law says if you plan a crime and then maybe when you commit it, you are under the influence, it does not diminish your responsibility.
法律规定，如果你计划犯罪，然后也许当你犯罪时，你受到了影响，这并不会减轻你的责任。
Your responsibilities are only diminished…
你的责任只会减少……
Let’s say you’re a totally normal person, never done any harm to anybody, and suddenly you take a drug that…
假设你是一个完全正常的人，从未对任何人做过任何伤害，突然你服用了一种药物......
or you’re totally drunk, and you don’t know what you’re doing and you kill someone.
或者你喝醉了，你不知道自己在做什么，然后你就杀了人。
Then a judge could say maybe you have a lesser responsibility.
然后法官可能会说你的责任可能较轻。
But this is not the case with the crimes of National Socialism, and I never even hint at that in my book.
但国家社会主义的罪行并非如此，我在书中从未暗示过这一点。
So I think that criticism by Evans was short-sighted.
所以我认为埃文斯的批评是短视的。
I wouldn’t…
我不会……
I think he’s not right about that.
我认为他的说法是不对的。
Yeah, I, I think I agree with you totally.
是的，我，我想我完全同意你的观点。
1:09:39 I didn’t get that sense.
我没有意识到。
He thought the book was very successful because a lot of right-wing people bought it, but that’s not…
他认为这本书非常成功，因为很多右翼人士都买了它，但事实并非如此……
1:09:43 it’s simply not true.
这根本不是真的。
I think your book did a masterful job of never making itself amenable to that kind of narrative.
我认为你的书做得非常出色，从不让自己屈服于这种叙述。
To the contrary, I got an angry letter by a German army employee, quite a high officer and a military historian, and he said that I…
相反，我收到了一封来自德国陆军雇员的愤怒的信，他是一位相当高级的军官和军事历史学家，他说我……
1:09:59 he also thought I overemphasized the drug use of methamphetamine in the Western campaign because he said the German army was just so good, and you kind of diminish their capability by saying they were only so good because they took methamphetamine.
他还认为我过分强调了西方战役中冰毒的使用，因为他说德国军队非常优秀，而你说他们之所以如此优秀，是因为他们服用了冰毒，这有点削弱了他们的能力。
I thought that was kind of funny because the Wehrmacht doesn’t exist anymore, and the new German…
我觉得这有点有趣，因为国防军已经不存在了，而新的德国……
the current German army is called the Bundeswehr, and historically, they’re not supposed to be connected.
目前的德国军队被称为联邦国防军，从历史上看，它们不应该有联系。
Like, there was a clear cut, but he still felt that I was kind of hurting the pride of the Wehrmacht.
就像，有一个明确的界限，但他仍然觉得我有点伤害了国防军的骄傲。
I, I generally sort of agree with him.
我，我基本上同意他的观点。
1:10:46 In general, it seems like great historians often…
总的来说，伟大的历史学家似乎经常……
I’m just a human, so I’m not a historian, but they undermine the importance of the heroes that make up an army.
我只是一个人，所以我不是历史学家，但他们削弱了组成军队的英雄的重要性。
The Soviet Army, the British Army, the French Army, the German Army.
苏联陆军、英国陆军、法国陆军、德国陆军。
These are humans, and some of the great military campaigns involve people really stepping up.
这些都是人类，一些伟大的军事行动需要人们真正挺身而出。
Now, the effectiveness of the military tactics with Blitzkrieg, the effectiveness of meth, the strategic decisions around where to invade, the timing, the speed, all those are important, but there are humans there.
现在，闪电战军事战术的有效性、冰毒的有效性、入侵地点的战略决策、时机、速度，所有这些都很重要，但那里还有人类。
There are real heroes.
有真正的英雄。
And sometimes historians kind of diminish that.
有时历史学家会淡化这一点。
I don’t know what to make sense of it.
我不知道该怎么理解它。
1:11:39 I might be just an idiot, but I’ve had a great conversation with James Holland.
我可能只是个白痴，但我和詹姆斯·霍兰德进行了一次愉快的交谈。
I’ve gotten to know him well.
我已经很了解他了。
He kind of analyzed the mistakes made by Hitler and by Stalin in Operation Barbarossa.
他分析了希特勒和斯大林在巴巴罗萨行动中所犯的错误。
But through generations, because I grew up in the Soviet Union, you hear these stories of these heroes, you know.
但几代人以来，因为我在苏联长大，你会听到这些英雄的故事，你知道。
My grandfather was a machine gunner and miraculously survived.
我的祖父是一名机枪手，他奇迹般地活了下来。
And just knowing those stories, Stalingrad would not have happened without the heroes on the Soviet side.
只要知道这些故事，如果没有苏联方面的英雄，斯大林格勒就不会发生。
1:12:13 It’s easy to say there are a lot of blunders, a lot of bad tactics, all this kind of stuff, but to me, from the human side, I just know through my bloodline, the people that have fearlessly given their life to defend their homeland, and that sometimes can be a little bit easily dismissed.
说起来很容易，有很多错误，很多糟糕的策略，诸如此类的事情，但对我来说，从人性的角度来看，我只是通过我的血统知道那些为了保卫家园而无畏地献出生命的人们，有时可能会很容易被忽视。
So, I don’t know what to make sense of it.
所以，我不知道该理解什么。
Maybe I’m romanticizing, or maybe I’m speaking to the suffering that the people have felt, and they just propagate themselves through my life story, and then maybe the gratitude I have for the people who stopped the Nazi forces.
也许我在浪漫化，或者也许我在谈论人们所感受到的痛苦，他们只是通过我的人生故事传播自己，然后也许是我对制止纳粹势力的人们的感激之情。
I think it’s amazing what the Russian soldiers actually did because they beat the Wehrmacht.
我认为俄罗斯士兵的实际行动令人惊奇，因为他们击败了国防军。
1:12:50 It was really the Red Army on the ground that did the job, you know.
你知道，实际上是红军在地面上完成了这项工作。
And did they love communism and the system?
他们热爱共产主义和这个制度吗？
I don’t think so.
我不这么认为。
I think they were…
我认为他们是……
I mean, of course, some people, but basically, they were defending their country.
我的意思是，当然，有些人，但基本上，他们是在保卫自己的国家。
I’m also very grateful to them.
我也非常感谢他们。
Yeah, they’re defending their families.
是的，他们正在捍卫自己的家人。
1:13:15 Quick pause.
快速暂停。
Bathroom break?
上厕所休息？
Okay.
好的。
Alright, we’re back.
好吧，我们回来了。
1:13:20 So can you say a bit more about the French campaigns?
那么您能多介绍一下法国的战役吗？
It was over in six weeks.
六周后就结束了。
It took six weeks to complete a defeat and occupy most of France.
花了六周的时间才完成溃败并占领了法国大部分地区。
And the initial operation, three days, was, from a military perspective, successful.
从军事角度来看，为期三天的最初行动是成功的。
What else can we say about the role of drugs, the effectiveness, what was learned from that experience by the Wehrmacht?
关于药物的作用、有效性以及国防军从这次经历中学到了什么，我们还能说些什么？
I mean, for me to research the Western campaign was very interesting because I didn’t really know anything about it except that Germany won very quickly.
我的意思是，对我来说，研究西方战役非常有趣，因为除了德国很快获胜之外，我对此一无所知。
1:13:53 So to actually look at the details is very interesting, and the drugs give you kind of a way in.
因此，实际观察细节是非常有趣的，而药物为你提供了一种进入的方式。
What are some things you found in the archives that were interesting, like, about maybe letters, reports, diaries, that gave you some insight about the human story of it all?
您在档案中发现了哪些有趣的东西，比如信件、报告、日记，它们让您对人类的故事有了一些了解？
Well, there are letters, for example, by Heinrich Böll, who won the Nobel Prize later in literature.
嗯，有一些信件，例如后来获得诺贝尔文学奖的海因里希·伯尔的信。
1:14:21 He writes to his parents describing in detail what Pervitin did to him, how it kept his mood up, and that without Pervitin, he wouldn’t have been able to do the job.
他写信给他的父母，详细描述了珀维汀对他做了什么，这如何让他心情愉悦，如果没有珀维汀，他就无法完成这项工作。
But also military documents I found very interesting.
而且我发现军事文件也非常有趣。
For example, I could see exactly how the methamphetamine was distributed because it was not distributed equally.
例如，我可以准确地看到甲基苯丙胺的分布情况，因为它的分布不均匀。
It was done in a way that the tank troops who were leading the advance received the most meth, and they also needed it.
这样做的方式是，带头前进的坦克部队获得了最多的冰毒，而且他们也需要冰毒。
I could see how many pills on which date were delivered to Rommel’s troops.
我可以看到在哪一天向隆美尔的部队运送了多少药丸。
And Rommel became, I call him the Crystal Fox in my book for obvious reasons.
出于显而易见的原因，隆美尔在我的书中称他为水晶狐狸。
His division was using a lot of meth.
他的部门使用了大量冰毒。
And he was using meth as well?
他也使用冰毒？
I just have descriptions of how he, like, totally crazy stands in the open lid of the tank and all his people…
我只是描述了他如何完全疯狂地站在打开的水箱盖子上以及他所有的人......
1:15:14 Well, they had the meth, but there’s no-
好吧，他们有冰毒，但没有-
So you can infer from that.
所以你可以从中推断出来。
There’s no, they- they, maybe they didn’t use it.
不，他们——他们，也许他们没有使用它。
1:15:24 Maybe he didn’t use it.
也许他没有使用它。
But it looks like he used it.
但看起来他用过。
Like, there were also never any reports that all the meth was given back.
比如，也从来没有任何关于所有冰毒都被归还的报道。
I mean, a lot of soldiers write that they take it, but Rommel specifically, I wouldn’t write in my book Blitz that Rommel would take methamphetamine on such a day or something if there was no record for it.
我的意思是，很多士兵都写到他们服用了甲基苯丙胺，但具体来说是隆美尔，我不会在我的《闪电战》一书中写到隆美尔会在这样的一天服用甲基苯丙胺，或者如果没有记录的话。
But Rommel, there is a record for it that Rommel’s division used the most meth of any tank division.
但是隆美尔，有记录表明，隆美尔的师是所有坦克师中使用冰毒最多的。
So I write about that.
所以我写了这个。
And that already makes him the Crystal Fox because, you know, in his division, crystal meth is rampant.
这已经使他成为水晶狐狸，因为，你知道，在他的部门，冰毒很猖獗。
You know, it’s like in Animal Farm when the pigs discover alcohol.
你知道，这就像在《动物庄园》中，猪们发现了酒精。
1:16:06 Animal Farm by George Orwell.
乔治·奥威尔的《动物农场》。
There’s no evidence that they drank.
没有证据表明他们喝酒了。
It’s just the next day that they’re all hungover.
第二天他们就都宿醉了。
Rommel is a very interesting character in general because later he apparently turned against Hitler.
隆美尔总体上是一个非常有趣的人物，因为后来他显然转而反对希特勒。
1:16:18 He was part of the conspiracy of Operation Valkyrie.
他是瓦尔基里行动阴谋的一部分。
He received, you know, the offer to shoot himself in the forest, which he did, instead of being tried and executed.
你知道，他收到了在森林里开枪自杀的提议，他这样做了，而不是被审判和处决。
Is he just part of the- this general tension that the generals, the military had with Hitler?
他只是将军们、军队与希特勒之间普遍紧张关系的一部分吗？
1:16:40 That’d be fair to say?
可以这么说吗？
I would say so, yes.
我会这么说，是的。
1:16:48 I’m not an expert on the Wehrmacht.
我不是国防军方面的专家。
This is a very complex, large organization.
这是一个非常复杂、庞大的组织。
But I see most of the officers of the Wehrmacht as not necessarily Nazis in the way that they would, you know, shout, “Heil Hitler,” all the time.
但我认为国防军的大多数军官并不一定是纳粹分子，因为他们总是高喊“希特勒万岁”。
They were highly intelligent, highly trained, super professionals that ran a very effective war machine.
他们是非常聪明、训练有素的超级专业人员，运行着一台非常有效的战争机器。
And at one point, more and more of these generals realized that the orders that Hitler was giving were not really helping, you know, and they have their men dying because of it.
在某一时刻，越来越多的将军意识到希特勒发出的命令并没有真正帮助，你知道，他们的士兵因此而丧命。
So that creates a lot of tension.
所以这造成了很大的紧张。
And that’s what led to the mistake that Hitler did in Dunkirk, basically.
这基本上就是导致希特勒在敦刻尔克犯下错误的原因。
1:17:34 What Churchill called the sickle cut, which was the idea to storm through the Ardennes Mountains and kind of cut off the British and French troops who were still, you know, in the north of Belgium trying to figure out what was going on.
丘吉尔所说的“镰刀切割”，就是冲过阿登山脉，切断仍在比利时北部试图弄清楚到底发生了什么的英国和法国军队的断路。
Suddenly the Germans are behind them so that they, they kind of cut as a, like a sickle into enemy territory, the sickle cut.
突然间，德国人就在他们身后，所以他们就像一把镰刀一样切入敌人的领土，镰刀般地砍。
That was so successful that basically the campaign was won already.
这非常成功，基本上竞选已经获胜。
So then the Germans invaded, like occupied all the cities on the canal back to England to kind of cut off the British completely so they couldn’t even flee.
然后德国人入侵了，就像占领了返回英国的运河上的所有城市，完全切断了英国人的联系，让他们甚至无法逃跑。
But Dunkirk was open, the last port that was open.
但敦刻尔克是开放的，是最后一个开放的港口。
And the German army was, you know, already on the outskirts of Dunkirk.
你知道，德国军队已经在敦刻尔克郊区了。
1:18:19 They could have just taken it and closed that, you know, that hole for the British military to get out.
他们本可以拿下它，然后堵住英国军队的出路。
But Hitler then did his famous…
但希特勒随后做了他著名的……
And this is all the dynamic of the Western campaign, you know, a lot of things happen every day.
这就是西方竞选活动的全部动态，你知道，每天都会发生很多事情。
And then they’re saying like, “We’re going to have Dunkirk tomorrow and then it’s over.” And then Hitler stops the tanks.
然后他们会说，“我们明天就会有敦刻尔克，然后就结束了。”然后希特勒停止了坦克。
It’s his famous Halte Befehl, the order to stop.
这是他著名的“Halte Befehl”，即停止命令。
And you know, they were all on meth, you know, they didn’t want to stop.
你知道，他们都在吸食冰毒，你知道，他们不想停止。
But Hitler was not on meth.
但希特勒并没有吸食冰毒。
Hitler was, he basically, it was a little bit similar to the Berlin-Munich thing.
希特勒基本上，这有点类似于柏林-慕尼黑事件。
Hitler didn’t really understand that campaign, it was too fast for him.
希特勒并不真正理解那场战役，这对他来说太快了。
He…
他……
1:19:05 Because they didn’t say like, “Oh, they’re all on meth, they’re not going to sleep, they’re going to behave erratically.” They didn’t discuss this.
因为他们不会说，“哦，他们都在吸食冰毒，他们不会睡觉，他们的行为会变得不稳定。”他们没有讨论这个。
They discussed this in old-fashioned terms.
他们用老式的术语讨论了这个问题。
And Hitler was seeing like, “They do not protect their flanks.
希特勒认为，“他们不保护自己的侧翼。
What if the British come from the north?” This is terrible.
如果英国人来自北方怎么办？”这太可怕了。
Militarily, it was…
从军事上来说，这是……
They were already fighting World War II while Hitler was still fighting World War I, and especially the Allies, they were still fighting World War I.
当希特勒还在打第一次世界大战时，他们已经在打第二次世界大战了，尤其是盟军，他们还在打第一次世界大战。
But the tank generals on meth or the tank generals without meth, the tank generals per se, they were fighting a new type of war.
但是使用冰毒的坦克将军或没有冰毒的坦克将军，坦克将军本身，他们正在打一场新型的战争。
And Hitler then got a visit from Goering, the head of the air force, the Luftwaffe.
德国空军司令戈林随后拜访了希特勒。
And Goering was a morphinist.
戈林是一名吗啡瘾君子。
That is very well documented.
这是有据可查的。
1:19:49 He was on morphine.
他正在服用吗啡。
He was high as a kite most of the time.
大部分时间他都心情高涨。
And that comes with losing touch with reality, I would say.
我想说，这伴随着与现实的脱节。
Or at least it changes your grip on reality, you know.
或者至少它改变了你对现实的把握，你知道。
Maybe you’re still a good decision maker, but it could lead to…
也许你仍然是一个好的决策者，但这可能会导致……
You know, if you’re intoxicated, let’s say you’re writing and you’re intoxicated, you think it’s great, but the next day you read it and it’s shit, you know?
你知道，如果你喝醉了，假设你正在写作，你喝醉了，你认为它很棒，但第二天你读到它，它就很糟糕，你知道吗？
So Goering was using morphine in the morning, then met Hitler at the Felsennest, which was Hitler’s headquarters to command the Western campaign.
戈林早上服用吗啡，然后在费尔森巢会见了希特勒，那里是希特勒指挥西方战役的总部。
The Felsennest.
菲尔森之巢。
1:20:25 And Goering said to him, “If the army generals are now going to take Dunkirk, then basically the army has won this campaign, and that will give army high command, which is already against you,” because they were, you know.
戈林对他说，“如果陆军将军现在要占领敦刻尔克，那么基本上军队已经赢得了这场战役，这将赋予军队高级指挥权，这已经对你不利了，”因为他们是，你知道的。
For them, Hitler was always, like, the der kleine Gefreite, like this small kind of regular army guy because that’s what Hitler had been in the First World War, and now suddenly, he was the big decision maker.
对他们来说，希特勒总是像“der kleine Gefreite”一样，就像这个小小的正规军家伙，因为这就是希特勒在第一次世界大战中的表现，而现在突然间，他成为了重大决策者。
So they never…
所以他们从来不...
They thought they made much better decisions than him.
他们认为自己做出的决定比他好得多。
So Goering says, “Their power will be so overwhelming that they will, from now on, call the shots how this war will continue and what will be done next.
戈林说：“他们的力量将如此强大，从现在开始，他们将决定这场战争将如何继续以及接下来要做什么。
You should let me with the Luftwaffe do the job from the air.
你应该让我和德国空军一起从空中完成这项工作。
1:21:12 The National Socialist Luftwaffe is going to end the Western campaign.” So he thought that he could destroy…
国家社会主义德国空军将结束西方战役。”所以他认为他可以摧毁……
It doesn’t make sense, you know.
你知道，这没有意义。
Even to destroy the British military with planes, maybe you can do it.
甚至用飞机摧毁英国军队，也许你也能做到。
But certainly, he couldn’t do it.
但可以肯定的是，他做不到。
So the tank generals received the Halte Befehl, the stopping order.
因此，坦克将军们收到了停止命令。
They didn’t believe it when they received it because this would have been a complete victory over Great Britain.
当他们收到它时，他们不相信，因为这将是对英国的彻底胜利。
This would have been the end of Great Britain.
这将是英国的终结。
The whole British military was encircled, but they did get out through Dunkirk.
整个英国军队都被包围了，但他们确实通过敦刻尔克逃脱了。
That’s why the movie Dunkirk with Christopher Nolan is not good because he doesn’t describe what happened on the German side.
这就是为什么克里斯托弗·诺兰主演的电影《敦刻尔克》不好，因为他没有描述德国方面发生的事情。
1:21:53 It’s just this heroic British thing, “Yeah, we just got out and we reformed, and then we beat…” You know.
这就是英勇的英国事，“是的，我们刚刚出去，我们进行了改革，然后我们击败了......”你知道。
This was just because Hitler was afraid of the power of his army high command, and convinced by Goering’s morphine-high vision that he would stop it with the air force, which he couldn’t.
这只是因为希特勒害怕他的陆军最高统帅部的权力，并相信戈林的吗啡高瞻远瞩，他会用空军阻止它，但他做不到。
I mean, he bombed, and then the British, you know, they were on ships, and a few ships were sunk, but basically, they got out.
我的意思是，他轰炸了，然后英国人，你知道，他们在船上，有几艘船被击沉，但基本上，他们逃了出来。
You need to do this on the ground.
你需要在实地做这件事。
At least back then, you would have needed to do it on the ground.
至少在当时，你需要在地面上完成这项工作。
So that was a big mistake by Hitler.
所以这是希特勒犯下的一个大错误。
1:22:26 That’s why von Manstein, one of the three tank generals from February 17th — it was Rommel, von Manstein, and Guderian — and von Manstein, he later said, he spoke of a lost victory.
这就是为什么冯·曼施坦因，2月17日的三名坦克将军之一——隆美尔、冯·曼施坦因和古德里安——以及冯·曼施坦因，他后来说，谈到了一场失败的胜利。
He said the Western campaign was a lost victory because we really could have achieved the victory.
他说西线战役是一场失败的胜利，因为我们本来可以取得胜利。
We could’ve dominated, you know, Britain.
你知道，我们本可以主宰英国。
They could’ve, you know, invaded Britain.
你知道，他们可能入侵英国。
There was no more military.
不再有军队了。
Well, okay.
好吧，好吧。
1:22:50 On land, yes.
在陆地上，是的。
There was still the Royal Air Force.
仍然有皇家空军。
And the, and the Navy.
还有海军。
And the Navy, yeah.
还有海军，是的。
So invading Britain, I think any invasion of actual Britain is a gigantic mistake on the Nazi part, but—
因此，入侵英国，我认为任何对实际英国的入侵对于纳粹来说都是一个巨大的错误，但是——
But if Britain doesn’t have a standing army anymore, it’s much easier—
但如果英国不再有常备军，那就容易多了——
Well, I-
嗯，我——
…than still having one.
...比仍然拥有一个。
…I think it’s still extremely difficult to invade, but it’s much easier to neutralize, make sure that Britain is not a player in the war.
......我认为入侵仍然极其困难，但压制要容易得多，确保英国不参与战争。
1:23:11 I mean, the—
我的意思是，那个——
For sure.
当然。
1:23:21 Maybe Hitler wouldn’t have invaded at all anyhow.
也许希特勒无论如何都不会入侵。
Also, because of his sort of, not respect, but non-hatred—
而且，因为他的那种，不是尊重，而是非仇恨——
Right
右
…of the British Empire.
……大英帝国的。
‘Cause they’re also white supremacists, so…
因为他们也是白人至上主义者，所以……
1:23:31 Why, why, why would we fight them?
为什么，为什么，为什么我们要和他们战斗？
You know, it doesn’t make sense.
你知道，这没有意义。
While the French, they were already like half black, basically, in Hitler’s eyes.
而法国人，在希特勒眼中基本上已经像半个黑人了。
If we’re to talk about counterfactual history of the possible trajectories of the war that would lead to Nazi victory, one of the big mistakes is the invasion of Britain.
如果我们要谈论导致纳粹胜利的战争可能轨迹的反事实历史，那么最大的错误之一就是入侵英国。
1:23:40 So you already mentioned the stake with Dunkirk, but beyond that, if they even captured mainland Europe, they could’ve just neutralized the British threat and not invaded Britain, and then go after the oil, which is much needed, maybe in the Middle East.
所以你已经提到了与敦刻尔克的赌注，但除此之外，如果他们甚至占领了欧洲大陆，他们就可以消除英国的威胁而不是入侵英国，然后去寻找石油，这是非常需要的，也许在中东。
So focus on that campaign before invading the Soviet Union.
因此，在入侵苏联之前，请重点关注那场战役。
And then maybe wait for the Soviet Union to invade them through Poland, which would be likely coming, or wait until 1943, something like this, to invade east without the Western front having to have been there.
然后也许等待苏联通过波兰入侵他们（这很可能会发生），或者等到 1943 年，类似这样的事情，在西线不必到达的情况下入侵东部。
1:24:38 And the other really big mistake is declaring war against the United States.
另一个真正的大错误是向美国宣战。
Having complete disrespect for the United States and declaring war on the United States.
对美国完全不尊重，向美国宣战。
Very stupid.
非常愚蠢。
Which didn’t have to be done at all.
这根本不需要做。
Right.
正确的。
So it’s collecting enemies when those didn’t have to be done.
因此，当那些不必要的事情发生时，它就会收集敌人。
1:24:52 So there is, to me actually, there’s a lot of paths there, as dark as it is to imagine for Nazi Germany to be successful in the invasion of the Soviet Union, even.
所以，实际上，对我来说，那里有很多道路，即使纳粹德国成功入侵苏联也是如此黑暗。
Well, I think that’s why the Wehrmacht officers were pissed at Hitler, because they knew that they could actually win if it was done in a certain way.
嗯，我认为这就是国防军军官对希特勒生气的原因，因为他们知道，如果以某种方式完成，他们实际上可以获胜。
1:25:13 But Hitler’s ideology and his stupidity, and later also, his degeneration of his cognitive abilities, did not allow the Wehrmacht to fight in a most effective way.
但希特勒的意识形态和他的愚蠢，以及后来他认知能力的退化，不允许国防军以最有效的方式进行战斗。
So they had a…
所以他们有一个……
Hitler was a very bad leader after Dunkirk.
敦刻尔克之后，希特勒是一个非常糟糕的领导人。
So can you speak to the morphine?
那么你能和吗啡说话吗？
1:25:38 What kind of drug is morphine?
吗啡是一种什么样的药物？
Morphine was developed in the 19th century by a German, a young chemist called Sertürner.
吗啡是 19 世纪由一位德国年轻化学家塞特纳 (Sertürner) 发明的。
1:25:42 He wanted to know what the potent alkaloid in opium was.
他想知道鸦片中的强效生物碱是什么。
Because opium is a natural drug, but there’s something in the opium that’s actually decisive, and that’s morphine.
因为鸦片是一种天然毒品，但鸦片里有一种东西实际上起着决定性的作用，那就是吗啡。
So he was able to extract that from the opium.
所以他能够从鸦片中提取这种物质。
So, he basically, this young guy, invented morphine, which then became very important in wars, especially.
所以，基本上，他，这个年轻人，发明了吗啡，后来它在战争中变得非常重要。
Like the American Civil War is unthinkable without morphine.
就像没有吗啡的美国内战是不可想象的一样。
Or at least it would have been very different, because with morphine, you can treat people, you can amputate people, you can fix people up and send them back into battle.
或者至少情况会非常不同，因为有了吗啡，你可以治疗人，可以截肢，可以修复人并将他们送回战场。
And that also corresponded with the development of the hypodermic needle, the injection needle that was around in the mid-19th century.
这也与 19 世纪中叶出现的皮下注射针头（注射针头）的发展相对应。
1:26:43 So the injection needle and morphine together became a very efficient way to treat soldiers.
于是注射针和吗啡一起成为治疗士兵的一种非常有效的方法。
And that prolonged, for example, the Civil War in America.
例如，这延长了美国的内战。
So Göring was taking morphine.
所以戈林正在服用吗啡。
Yeah.
是的。
1:26:54 Morphine is like the classic.
吗啡就像经典。
You don’t eat opium, you know?
你不吃鸦片，你知道吗？
You take what is active in opium, and you inject it, and that’s a much…
你服用鸦片中的活性物质，然后注射它，这就是……
That’s a very potent…
这是一个非常有力的……
You know, that numbs all your pain.
你知道，这会麻痹你所有的痛苦。
You don’t have pain anymore if you’re on morphine.
如果你服用吗啡，你就不会再感到疼痛了。
Also affects judgment.
也影响判断力。
I’ve never taken morphine.
我从未服用过吗啡。
1:27:15 So I cannot really say.
所以我真的不能说。
I’m…
我是……
There are a few junkies that are highly creative on it.
有一些瘾君子对此非常有创意。
A lot of musicians in the ’60s were using heroin, which is a more potent form, or it’s a half-synthetic, it’s an opioid.
六十年代的许多音乐家都使用海洛因，这是一种更有效的形式，或者它是半合成的，它是一种阿片类药物。
Morphine is an opiate and heroin’s an opioid.
吗啡是阿片类药物，海洛因是阿片类药物。
I guess you could be quite sharp on it also.
我想你对此也可能很敏锐。
That’s why Hitler liked Eukodal, which is OxyContin, oxycodone.
这就是希特勒喜欢Eukodal的原因，它是奥施康定，羟考酮。
And he injected that.
他注射了那个。
I actually…
我其实……
Which is another opiate, heroin-like.
这是另一种阿片类药物，类似海洛因。
It was a product by the Merck company from Darmstadt, Germany.
它是德国达姆施塔特默克公司的产品。
1:27:55 They made Eukodal, which when Germany lost the war, the patent was basically taken by America and then ended up in oxycodone.
他们制造了Eukodal，当德国战败后，该专利基本上被美国拿走了，然后最终变成了羟考酮。
So if you inject Eukodal, that was a very popular drug in the ’20s, because apparently it gives you the most beautiful high on Earth.
因此，如果您注射 Eukodal，那是 20 年代非常流行的药物，因为显然它可以给您带来地球上最美丽的快感。
You’re super high.
你太高了。
You feel extremely well, and you can think very clearly.
你感觉非常好，而且你可以非常清晰地思考。
And you feel like this is how life should feel.
你觉得这就是生活应该有的感觉。
High on Eukodal, this is like Klaus Mann, the son of Thomas Mann, he used Eukodal.
对Eukodal的高，这就像Klaus Mann，Thomas Mann的儿子，他用Eukodal。
Quite a few doctors actually used it also, and probably quite a few Jewish doctors also used it, because this was like a doctor’s drug.
不少医生实际上也用过它，可能不少犹太医生也用过它，因为这就像医生的药物。
Doctors knew how to, you know, set the injection.
医生知道如何进行注射。
And it was, you know, a great experience.
你知道，这是一次很棒的经历。
1:28:42 And Hitler, he really loved to be on Eukodal.
还有希特勒，他真的很喜欢在尤科达尔上。
He would use Eukodal every second day.
他每隔一天就会使用一次 Eukodal。
In the beginning, 10 milligrams intravenously, then he raised to 20 milligrams.
一开始静脉注射10毫克，后来加到20毫克。
And I spoke to someone who’s actually done exactly that drug application, because I wanted to know how Hitler felt, and I didn’t feel like doing it myself for some reason.
我和一个真正做过这种药物应用的人交谈过，因为我想知道希特勒的感受，但出于某种原因我不想自己做。
I don’t like needles, so I didn’t want to put a needle in my vein to have the Hitler drug experience.
我不喜欢打针，所以我不想在静脉里打针来体验希特勒吸毒的经历。
I should have done it.
我应该这么做的。
A historian, a proper historian never does that, okay?
一个历史学家，一个真正的历史学家永远不会这样做，好吗？
So, I…
所以，我……
But I thought I should take quite a few drugs that I write about to understand it better.
但我认为我应该服用我写的相当多的药物才能更好地理解它。
But this drug I didn’t take.
但这个药我没有吃。
I never shot oxycodone intravenously into my veins.
我从未将羟考酮注射到静脉中。
1:29:24 But I met someone who did, and he said it’s like the king’s high.
但我遇到了一个这样做的人，他说这就像国王的狂欢。
You know, if you do that properly, obviously you get addicted to it, you know?
你知道，如果你做得正确，显然你会对此上瘾，你知道吗？
I’d be scared to try.
我不敢尝试。
Very intense experience.
非常强烈的体验。
I think it’s a very badass thing to do for a historian, by the way.
顺便说一句，我认为这对于历史学家来说是一件非常糟糕的事情。
1:29:37 But I think it’s a big risk.
但我认为这是一个很大的风险。
I think there is a risk that comes along with it, right?
我认为随之而来的是风险，对吗？
Well, but not for Hitler, because he got the Eukodal from the pharmacy.
好吧，但对希特勒来说不是，因为他从药房买了 Eukodal。
1:29:47 He knew exactly, like his doctor knew exactly what was inside.
他清楚地知道，就像他的医生清楚地知道里面是什么一样。
It was made by a pharmaceutical company.
它是由一家制药公司生产的。
No, I mean, the risk of addiction.
不，我的意思是，上瘾的风险。
Yeah, that is a big risk.
是的，这是一个很大的风险。
1:29:59 That is a big risk.
这是一个很大的风险。
But there’s also the risk of getting impure stuff and…
但也存在获得不纯物质的风险……
…Like heroin on the street and dying from an overdose or…
......就像街上的海洛因因吸毒过量而死亡或......
But the addiction thing is very…
但成瘾的事情是非常......
I think it happens quite quickly with Eukodal, because it’s such a great feeling.
我认为 Eukodal 很快就能做到这一点，因为这种感觉太棒了。
So why wouldn’t you do it over and over again?
那么你为什么不一遍又一遍地这样做呢？
And then the opioid receptors in the brain want you to take it.
然后大脑中的阿片受体希望你服用它。
And if you don’t take it, you get withdrawal symptoms and you feel like shit.
如果你不服用它，你就会出现戒断症状，感觉很糟糕。
And you have to…
而且你必须……
So that’s the problem with opioids, with morphine.
这就是阿片类药物和吗啡的问题。
That’s what happens.
就是这样。
And that’s what happened to Hitler.
这就是希特勒的遭遇。
I generally say yes to most things, but those drugs, like cocaine doesn’t scare me.
我通常对大多数事情都会说“是”，但那些药物，如可卡因，并不会吓到我。
1:30:31 Heroin scares me.
海洛因让我害怕。
The opioids scare me.
阿片类药物让我害怕。
Oxycodone scares me.
羟考酮让我害怕。
Because they really make you physically dependent.
因为它们确实让你产生身体依赖。
1:30:45 I don’t even know if cocaine makes you physically dependent.
我什至不知道可卡因是否会让你产生身体依赖。
It makes you psychologically addicted.
会让你产生心理上瘾。
But they actually…
但他们实际上……
You have to get it, otherwise you feel bad.
你必须得到它，否则你会感觉很糟糕。
That’s a physical, terrible addiction.
这是一种可怕的身体上瘾。
And also for life to feel less when you’re not on it.
当你不在的时候，生活也会变得更少。
Right.
正确的。
That scares me.
这让我害怕。
That’s the problem also with methamphetamine.
这也是甲基苯丙胺的问题。
1:31:06 People who use a lot of methamphetamine, on days they don’t use it, they don’t feel great at all, especially not compared to the methamphetamine days.
大量使用甲基苯丙胺的人，在不使用甲基苯丙胺的日子里，他们感觉一点也不舒服，尤其是与使用甲基苯丙胺的日子相比。
So that became a problem in Germany when people were really using more and more of the Pervitin.
因此，当人们真正使用越来越多的 Pervitin 时，这在德国就成了一个问题。
All right, you’ve got to take me through the full drug cocktail that Hitler was on, patient A of Morell’s.
好吧，你得带我了解一下希特勒服用的全套药物鸡尾酒，莫雷尔的病人 A。
1:31:22 Let’s start at the beginning.
让我们从头开始。
We’re big on setting context here.
我们热衷于在这里设置背景。
So tell the story of Dr. Theodor Morell.
讲述西奥多·莫雷尔博士的故事。
How did he meet Hitler?
他是怎么认识希特勒的？
Well, Morell was…
嗯，莫雷尔是……
1:31:39 He had his practice on Kurfürstendamm, which is like the main boulevard of Berlin, in the west of Berlin.
他的练习地点位于柏林西部的选帝侯大街，就像柏林的主干道。
Kind of a fancy street.
有点像一条奇特的街道。
And he was a celebrity doctor, which was a new type of doctor in a way, a Dr. Feelgood.
他是一位名人医生，从某种意义上说，这是一种新型医生，一位感觉良好的医生。
He was one of the first Dr. Feelgoods.
他是最早的Feelgoods博士之一。
So you didn’t go to him when you had a disease.
所以你生病的时候没有去找他。
You went to him when you were…
当你……的时候，你就去找他了。
let’s say you were an opera star in the Berlin Opera, and you had a big premiere, so you would go to Morell in the afternoon, and he would give you a nice shot, and then you would, you know, be really good on stage.
假设你是柏林歌剧院的一位歌剧明星，你有一场大型首演，所以你下午会去莫雷尔，他会给你一个很好的机会，然后你就会在舞台上表现得非常出色。
He was not a quack.
他不是庸医。
I mean, he just knew his drugs, and he believed in, why shouldn’t you treat someone even if that person doesn’t have a disease?
我的意思是，他只知道他的药物，并且他相信，为什么你不应该治疗某人，即使那个人没有疾病？
1:32:30 If you can make that person feel better, it’s good, especially if that person pays.
如果你能让那个人感觉更好，那就很好，尤其是当那个人付钱的时候。
He said, “Everyone who pays my…” And he wasn’t cheap.
他说，“每个付钱给我的人……”而且他的价格并不便宜。
“Who comes to me and wants a testosterone hormone injection or a vitamin injection or an opioid injection, you get it from him.” He didn’t have any scruples.
“如果有人来找我想要注射睾酮激素、注射维生素或注射阿片类药物，你就从他那里得到。”他没有任何顾忌。
I mean, but we should also say, he was pretty innovative and extremely knowledgeable.
我的意思是，但我们也应该说，他非常有创新精神，而且知识渊博。
1:32:50 So you mentioned hormones, but also you know, like probiotics.
所以你提到了激素，但你也知道，比如益生菌。
You talk about…
你谈论……
Yeah.
是的。
1:33:00 Right.
正确的。
He knew his shit.
他知道他的事。
He was a bit of a nerd.
他是一个有点书呆子的人。
1:33:02 He was-
他是——
Like, a legit doctor, just didn’t have boundaries about what he used.
就像一个合法的医生一样，他对自己使用的药物没有任何限制。
He had a very unappealing physical appearance, and I think that was a problem for him, and he was known to have very bad eating habits.
他的外表非常不吸引人，我认为这对他来说是一个问题，而且众所周知，他的饮食习惯非常糟糕。
1:33:09 Like, sauce was running, and…
就像，酱汁在流，然后……
So people were easily disgusted by him.
所以人们很容易对他产生厌恶。
He was like an outsider.
他就像一个局外人。
He was really like a freak.
他真的就像一个怪胎。
But when people looked at him after he had given them an injection and they said, “Thank you,” and “I feel so great now,” that’s what kind of made his day, you know?
但是，当人们在他给他们注射后看着他时，他们说：“谢谢你”和“我现在感觉很好”，这就是他的一天，你知道吗？
So one day, a man entered his doctor’s office on Kurfürstendamm named Hubertus Hoffmann.
有一天，一位名叫休伯特·霍夫曼 (Hubertus Hoffmann) 的男子走进选帝侯大街的医生办公室。
And Hubertus Hoffmann was a photographer, and he had gonorrhea, and Morell, because he knew about alternative ways to treat, he actually cured him.
休伯特·霍夫曼是一名摄影师，他患有淋病，莫雷尔因为知道其他治疗方法，实际上治愈了他。
1:33:58 And Hubertus Hoffmann said to Morell, “I have a good friend, and I think you should meet him, and I’m going to have a dinner in Munich, and I think it would be really worth your time to come.” And Morell came, and the good friend was Hitler, because Hubertus Hoffmann was Hitler’s photographer.
胡伯特斯·霍夫曼对莫雷尔说：“我有一个好朋友，我想你应该见见他，我要去慕尼黑吃晚饭，我认为你花时间来真的很值得。”莫雷尔来了，好朋友是希特勒，因为胡伯特斯·霍夫曼是希特勒的摄影师。
And they were…
他们是……
In German, we have a formal “you,” which is “Sie.” Like, if I don’t know you so well, I say “Sie.” And if you’re my close friend, I say “du,” you.
在德语中，我们有一个正式的“you”，即“Sie”。就像，如果我不太了解你，我会说“Sie”。如果你是我的亲密朋友，我会说“du”，即你。
And Hitler only had about four people he would say “du” to.
希特勒只有大约四个人可以说“du”。
He always liked the “Sie,” like the distance.
他一直喜欢“Sie”，喜欢距离。
It was always about distance, respect, and borders and boundaries.
它总是关于距离、尊重、边界和界限。
What are the two again?
两人又是什么？
1:34:37 “Sie” and what?
“谢”什么？
Du.
杜。
Sie and du?
西和杜？
Yes.
是的。
1:34:41 “Sie” is the formal one, and “du” is the informal one.
“是”是正式的，“都”是非正式的。
Yeah.
是的。
1:34:44 No, in Russian, there’s the same thing: “vy” and “ty.” And so that’s a big thing.
不，在俄语中，有相同的词：“vy”和“ty”。所以这是一件大事。
Also, in French, you also have that.
另外，在法语中，你也有这个。
1:34:50 You have that in Spanish.
你有西班牙语的。
Only in English you don’t have it.
只是在英语中你没有它。
And it is part of the cultural discourse of, like, when you upgrade from the “vy”…
它是文化话语的一部分，例如，当你从“vy”升级时......
1:34:55 …To the “ty,” from the “Sie” to the “du”…
……到“ty”，从“Sie”到“du”……
…Or from the “du” to the “Sie.”
……或者从“du”到“Sie”。
From the “Sie” to the “du.”
从“Sie”到“du”。
Sie to the du.
谢向杜。
That would be the upgrade because you become more intimate.
那将是升级，因为你们变得更加亲密。
Yeah, like, you ask, “Can I go…” …from Sie to du?”
是的，就像，你问，“我可以……”……从 Sie 到 du 吗？
Yeah.
是的。
1:35:13 Like, the older person must suggest it, I think.
我想，一定是长辈建议的。
Yeah.
是的。
1:35:16 Okay.
好的。
Beautiful language.
美丽的语言。
So Hoffmann was a “du freund,” a “du freund,” we say, of Hitler.
所以霍夫曼是一个“du freund”，我们说，希特勒的“du freund”。
1:35:19 So he was quite close to Hitler, and that’s why he could also make that close connection.
所以他和希特勒的关系非常密切，所以他也能有那么密切的联系。
So he had a dinner with just him, Hitler, Eva Braun, Hitler’s girlfriend, and Morell came.
于是他和希特勒、希特勒的女朋友爱娃·布劳恩共进晚餐，莫雷尔也来了。
Like, they sent a plane to Berlin to pick him up.
比如，他们派了一架飞机去柏林接他。
So it’s like VIP treatment.
所以这就像 VIP 待遇。
It was…
这是……
…The whole thing.
……整件事。
And this is 1936?
这是1936年？
’36.
’36。
1:35:42 Yeah, they had spaghetti with tomato sauce on the side, I read.
是的，我读到，他们旁边还有番茄酱意大利面。
There’s like a description of this event.
好像有关于这个事件的描述。
The tomato sauce was on the side.
番茄酱就在旁边。
And there was muscat.
还有麝香葡萄。
What is muscat?
什么是麝香？
It’s a spice.
这是一种香料。
Nutmeg.
肉豆蔻。
Nutmeg.
肉豆蔻。
Yeah, it was with nutmeg, which is an unusual recipe, I guess, but that’s what they had.
是的，它是用肉豆蔻制成的，我想这是一个不寻常的食谱，但这就是他们所拥有的。
1:35:58 And spaghetti wasn’t a fancy thing, you know?
意大利面并不是什么奇特的东西，你知道吗？
It came from Italy, from Mussolini, who invented fascism in Italy, and who was Hitler’s role model for a long time until Hitler surpassed him, obviously.
它来自意大利，来自墨索里尼，他在意大利发明了法西斯主义，并且在很长一段时间内是希特勒的榜样，直到希特勒显然超越了他。
So the spaghetti that came from Italy, it was a big thing.
所以来自意大利的意大利面是一件大事。
And Morell had the big problem that spaghetti’s hard to eat, right?
莫雷尔有一个大问题，那就是意大利面很难吃，对吧？
It was a catastrophe.
这是一场灾难。
But he got out of it because Hitler complained about stomach problems, because Hitler was a terrible vegetarian.
但他摆脱了它，因为希特勒抱怨胃病，因为希特勒是一个糟糕的素食主义者。
He was a so-called cake vegetarian.
他是一个所谓的蛋糕素食主义者。
He would only eat sweets, like cake.
他只吃甜食，比如蛋糕。
No meat, of course, but he wouldn’t eat healthy stuff, you know?
当然，不吃肉，但他不会吃健康的东西，你知道吗？
1:36:41 So he was bloated the whole time because he only ate cake and white bread, and it’s not good.
所以他一直都是臃肿的，因为他只吃蛋糕和白面包，而且不好。
So he voiced that, and there was also Brandt there, an official doctor from the SS, who was his doctor.
所以他这么说，当时还有勃兰特，他是党卫军的正式医生，也是他的医生。
And Hitler said, “My doctors can’t cure me.” And Morell was like, “This is my chance.
希特勒说：“我的医生无法治愈我。”莫雷尔说：“这是我的机会。
Thank you, God.” And he told Hitler about the probiotics, which Hitler had never heard of, and also Brandt, the doctor, he hadn’t heard of, because that was a new thing.
谢谢你，上帝。”他向希特勒讲述了益生菌的事，希特勒从未听说过，还有勃兰特医生，他也没有听说过，因为那是新事物。
1:37:15 And Hitler was asking, “What is that?” And Morell said, “These are live bacteria from German soldiers from the First World War that were fighting in Serbia.” There was one guy who didn’t get the stomach flu when all the others drank the water in Serbia and all got sick, but this one guy, so his bacteria…
希特勒问：“那是什么？”莫雷尔说：“这些是来自第一次世界大战期间在塞尔维亚作战的德国士兵的活细菌。”当其他人都喝了塞尔维亚的水并都生病时，有一个人没有患肠胃流感，但是这个人，所以他的细菌......
And this is a true story.
这是一个真实的故事。
His gut bacteria were cultivated into a medicine called Mutaflor.
他的肠道细菌被培养成一种名为 Mutaflor 的药物。
And Morell told Hitler about this and he said, “This is amazing.
莫雷尔向希特勒讲述了这件事，他说：“这太神奇了。
I have to try this.” You know?
我必须尝试这个。”你知道吗？
And it helped.
这很有帮助。
He got the Mutaflor, he did the Mutaflor therapy, and it cured him.
他得到了 Mutaflor，他进行了 Mutaflor 疗法，结果治愈了他。
He suddenly had no bloating anymore, and the farting of Hitler was really bad.
他突然不再腹胀了，希特勒放的屁实在是太糟糕了。
1:37:58 So bad that it would diminish his ability to work, you know?
太糟糕了，这会削弱他的工作能力，你知道吗？
So suddenly he could work.
突然间他就可以工作了。
He said he felt better.
他说他感觉好多了。
He didn’t have the pain.
他没有痛苦。
He felt great, so he really thought that Morell was a wonder doctor.
他感觉棒极了，所以他真的认为莫雷尔是一位神医。
And he asked Morell pretty quickly afterwards, “Do you want to be my personal physician?” And Morell’s wife was very much against it because she said, “If you become the personal physician of Hitler, you won’t have any time for me anymore.” And he said, “Come on, man.
随后他很快就问莫雷尔：“你想成为我的私人医生吗？”莫雷尔的妻子非常反对，因为她说：“如果你成为希特勒的私人医生，你就没有时间陪我了。”他说：“来吧，伙计。
This is like the chance you only get once in your life.”
这就像你一生中只有一次的机会。”
Yeah, I mean, at this point, Hitler’s a really big deal.
是的，我的意思是，在这一点上，希特勒确实是一件大事。
He’s the most powerful man in Europe.
他是欧洲最有权势的人。
1:38:37 And there had not been war crimes because the war hadn’t started yet.
而且还没有发生战争罪，因为战争还没有开始。
Obviously, there were concentration camps and a lot of crimes had been committed, but it was also kind of hushed up, you know?
显然，那里有集中营，犯下了很多罪行，但它也被掩盖了，你知道吗？
It’s not such a huge thing as we now know it became.
它并不像我们现在所知的那么大。
So, Morell never really had any conscientious problems.
所以，莫雷尔从来没有真正有过任何良心问题。
He just thought it was great, you know?
他只是觉得这很棒，你知道吗？
“I’m gonna be the doctor.
“我要当医生。
I’m gonna be part of history.” So he becomes the personal physician, and being this vitamin guy, like vitamins were really his thing.
我将成为历史的一部分。”所以他成为了私人医生，作为维生素专家，就像维生素真的是他的专长一样。
He believed in the power of vitamins.
他相信维生素的力量。
And today, I think we know that he was right.
今天，我想我们知道他是对的。
Vitamins are good, but back then, no one knew.
维生素很好，但当时没有人知道。
1:39:24 And Hitler was like, “Okay.” He told Hitler, and then Hitler said, “Okay, I want to try these vitamins and…” And what they did from the beginning was injections because Hitler didn’t want to take a pill, because the pill takes too long and it goes through the track that he has problems with, like the digestion.
希特勒说：“好吧。”他告诉希特勒，然后希特勒说，“好吧，我想尝试一下这些维生素……”他们从一开始就做注射，因为希特勒不想吃药，因为药丸需要很长时间，而且会经过他有问题的轨道，比如消化。
He didn’t want to take a pill.
他不想吃药。
He believed in the injection, and Morell was the masterful injector.
他相信注射技术，莫雷尔是注射技术的高手。
So Morell, because the needles were thicker than they are today, but Morell could give you an injection without you feeling any pain.
所以莫雷尔，因为针头比现在更粗，但莫雷尔可以给你注射，而你不会感到任何疼痛。
So Hitler was quite impressed, so he got a vitamin C injection, but Hitler loved the daily injection, so he got hooked on the daily injection.
所以希特勒印象相当深刻，于是他就注射了维生素C，但希特勒很喜欢每天注射，所以他就迷上了每天注射。
Once he got the injection, the day was good.
注射完后，他的日子过得很好。
1:40:09 And he never got sick, actually.
事实上，他从未生过病。
He could stand for a long time with his arm raised.
他可以举起手臂站立很长时间。
He went to the gym, basically.
他基本上去了健身房。
He had a gym where he was doing exercises so he could have his arm up for hours when a military parade would walk by.
他有一个健身房，在那里他可以锻炼身体，这样当阅兵经过时他就可以举起手臂几个小时。
So he was quite fit and he was never sick, and Morell was giving him the daily injection, and they lived happily ever after basically until the Soviet Union attacked.
所以他很健康，从来没有生病过，莫雷尔每天都给他注射，从此他们基本上过着幸福的生活，直到苏联袭击为止。
Wait, wait, wait.
等等，等等，等等。
1:40:34 He literally lifted so he could do the Heil Hitler salute?
他真的举起手来向希特勒万岁致敬吗？
Yeah, I found a document for that.
是的，我找到了一份文件。
That’s funny.
这很有趣。
1:40:42 Oh God, that’s dark.
天哪，太黑了。
He had an expander, we say.
我们说他有一个扩张器。
1:40:45 I don’t know, do you use that word in English?
我不知道，你在英语中使用这个词吗？
Expander?
扩张器？
Oh, like a band.
哦，就像一个乐队。
Yeah, it’s like this.
是的，就是这样。
1:40:51 You do like…
你确实喜欢……
Yeah, yeah, I have one of those.
是的，是的，我有其中之一。
Yeah, that’s what, that’s what- That’s what he did.
是的，就是这样，就是这样——这就是他所做的。
1:40:54 In front of the-
面前——
And I do those kinds of exercises.
我会做这些练习。
…in front of the window.
……在窗前。
Well, at least he’s not doing it in front of a mirror.
好吧，至少他没有在镜子前这样做。
1:41:00 Okay, wow, that’s dark.
好吧，哇，太黑了。
That’s…
那是……
I mean, those little details, yet another reminder that he’s just a human being.
我的意思是，这些小细节再次提醒我们他只是一个人。
I mean, it’s hard to keep your arm up for like hours.
我的意思是，很难让你的手臂保持几个小时。
1:41:11 You can’t let it down.
你不能让它失望。
If you keep it up, that’s what it’s all about, you know?
如果你坚持下去，那就是一切，你知道吗？
I mean, he was very much about the façade, right?
我的意思是，他非常注重外表，对吧？
1:41:18 He’s very important to present himself in a certain kind of way when he’s giving the speeches.
当他发表演讲时，以某种方式展示自己非常重要。
Yeah, it was, everything was orchestrated.
是的，一切都是精心策划的。
1:41:26 The Nazis were masters in propaganda.
纳粹是宣传大师。
They really knew how to create the perfect image.
他们真的知道如何创造完美的形象。
Okay, so let’s go into the cocktail.
好吧，让我们开始喝鸡尾酒吧。
1:41:35 It started with the vitamins in ’36.
它始于 36 年的维生素。
Right.
对。
1:41:41 I think it was pretty harmless in the beginning.
我认为一开始它是无害的。
But the addiction to the injection was the main thing that I think happened—that Hitler needed his doctor.
但我认为对注射上瘾是发生的主要事情——希特勒需要他的医生。
But from ’36 to ’41, only vitamins and glucose were being injected, so I don’t think it really harms you.
但从 36 岁到 41 岁，只注射了维生素和葡萄糖，所以我认为这不会真正伤害你。
It might benefit you.
这可能对你有好处。
He never got sick; he was fit.
他从来没有生过病；他很健康。
This, I mean, this is the thing that…
这，我的意思是，这就是……
That was phase one of his drug use were the vitamins, until ’41.
那是他使用维生素的第一阶段，直到 41 年。
So, you think the tweaking at the Olympics, you’ve talked about before, but still, so you’re saying this person— …
所以，你认为奥运会上的调整，你之前已经讨论过，但是，你仍然是说这个人......
1:42:12 we’re watching a video of here, is not on drugs.
我们在这里观看的视频不是关于毒品的。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
1:42:23 I don’t think so.
我不这么认为。
So the- the video could be faked.
所以-视频可能是伪造的。
There are no records.
没有记录。
It could be sped up.
可以加快速度。
I think it’s fake, because I think someone read my book that Hitler was on, thought that Hitler was always on meth and created this.
我认为这是假的，因为我认为有人读了我写的关于希特勒的书，认为希特勒总是吸食冰毒并创造了这个。
1:42:29 But I might be wrong.
但我可能错了。
Yeah, and the narrative takes hold.
是的，故事已经发生了。
1:42:36 I think the thing you mentioned is he could be on sugar, so it could be a lot of elements.
我认为你提到的事情是他可能吃糖，所以可能有很多元素。
He was also a weird guy.
他也是一个奇怪的人。
1:42:43 Maybe he was really just rocking- …
也许他真的只是在摇摆——……
because he was so happy what he saw, you know?
因为他对所看到的感到非常高兴，你知道吗？
Maybe he really got into it.
也许他真的投入其中了。
Maybe it was a sexual thing for him what he saw.
也许他所看到的对他来说是一种性的东西。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
There’s no document showing that he took a drug on that day, let’s put it that way.
没有任何文件显示他那天服用了药物，这么说吧。
I think I’ve been fidgety, especially staying up all night.
我想我一直烦躁不安，尤其是熬夜。
1:42:57 You can just be caught in a certain moment when you’re being very fidgety.
当你非常烦躁的时候，你可能会陷入困境。
I think he probably rocked a few times, and then the video was cut in a way—
我想他可能晃动了几次，然后视频就被剪掉了——
Sped up?
加快了吗？
…that he rocks more or something.
……他摇滚得更厉害了。
1:43:12 Also, methamphetamine wasn’t yet available in 1936.
此外，1936 年还没有甲基苯丙胺。
So—
所以——
That’s important to say.
这很重要。
…for sure he was not.
……他肯定不是。
1:43:19 So, what is said here on Hitler tweaking on meth at the 1936 Olympics is definitely false.
因此，关于希特勒在 1936 年奥运会上使用冰毒的说法绝对是错误的。
Okay, there you go.
好的，就这样吧。
1:43:28 So when did it start getting more serious?
那么什么时候开始变得更严重了呢？
The injections and the kind of drugs he was taking?
他服用的注射剂和药物种类？
This was a day in August of 1941.
这是 1941 年 8 月的一天。
1:43:37 Germany had invaded the Soviet Union on June 22nd.
德国于 6 月 22 日入侵苏联。
So this is about six weeks into the campaign, which was called Operation Barbarossa.
这场被称为“巴巴罗萨行动”的战役已经进行了大约六周。
And Germany was doing pretty well, and it came to a crucial moment where high command said, “Now we’re going to take Moscow.” And Hitler said, “No, we’re going to split up the troops and take Leningrad,” which is now Saint Petersburg in the north, and in the south, we’re going to go for the oil fields, basically.
德国表现相当不错，到了关键时刻，最高指挥部说：“现在我们要占领莫斯科。”希特勒说：“不，我们要分兵攻占列宁格勒，”北部就是现在的圣彼得堡，而在南部，我们基本上会去攻打油田。
That was his plan.
这就是他的计划。
He said, “Let’s not do Moscow.” And high command was like, “This is the biggest mistake.
他说：“我们不要去莫斯科了。”最高指挥部说：“这是最大的错误。
We must take Moscow.
我们必须占领莫斯科。
If we take Moscow, we’re going to win.” And Hitler became ill for the first time on the day this decision was made.
如果我们拿下莫斯科，我们就会赢。”而希特勒在做出这一决定的那天就第一次生病了。
I mean, this is a dynamic thing that’s going on, you know?
我的意思是，这是一个动态的事情正在发生，你知道吗？
1:44:38 They’re moving, and now they have to decide, will we split up or will we continue towards Moscow?
他们正在搬家，现在他们必须决定，我们是分开还是继续前往莫斯科？
And he had the Russian flu, in German, the Ruhr, which is a flu-type disease with a very high fever.
他还得了俄罗斯流感（德语为鲁尔流感），这是一种流感型疾病，伴有高烧。
It comes…
它来了……
Like, they were in the field, so they were in the east, you know, camping out.
就像，他们在田野里，所以他们在东部，你知道，露营。
Maybe he drank water that wasn’t good, or he had some, you know, they tested everything meticulously, but he got sick.
也许他喝了不好的水，或者他喝了一些，你知道，他们仔细地测试了一切，但他生病了。
High fever, he felt like shit, and he said to Morell…
高烧，他感觉很糟糕，他对莫雷尔说……
And, you know, you can see it in Morell’s notes.
而且，你知道，你可以在莫雷尔的笔记中看到这一点。
Morell describes this very vividly in his notes, which are at the Federal Archives, which no historian ever looked at except me, the non-historian, which is kind of funny.
莫雷尔在联邦档案馆的笔记中非常生动地描述了这一点，除了我这个非历史学家之外，没有历史学家看过这些记录，这有点有趣。
1:45:21 So he describes how Hitler then asks of him, basically says, “Vitamins are not enough anymore.” Like he’s very weak.
所以他描述了希特勒后来如何向他提出要求，基本上是说，“维生素已经不够了。”就像他很虚弱一样。
He must go to the military briefing, but if you…
他必须去参加军事简报会，但如果你……
The flu is quite a severe disease, I think.
我认为流感是一种相当严重的疾病。
If you have a heavy flu, you really feel like you’re going to die, you can’t go to a military briefing.
如果你得了重流感，你真的感觉自己快要死了，你就不能去参加军事简报会。
But Morell kind of fought with himself, and then he decided to inject an opioid into Hitler’s veins intravenously, like the strongest application possible, and this was Dolantin, which is a German opioid that was legal.
但莫雷尔有点与自己作斗争，然后他决定将阿片类药物静脉注射到希特勒的静脉中，就像尽可能最强的应用一样，这就是多兰汀，这是一种合法的德国阿片类药物。
And I was once an exchange student in Flint, Michigan, 1988, and I was number one of the tennis team ’cause I was quite a good tennis player.
1988 年，我曾经是密歇根州弗林特市的交换生，我是网球队的第一名，因为我是一名非常优秀的网球运动员。
1:46:11 We were playing our main enemy.
我们正在扮演我们的主要敌人。
I think it was Flint Powers Catholic High School in Flint, Michigan, and I think it was Power Central, and they had a number one, Marc Resstiner.
我认为是密歇根州弗林特的弗林特鲍尔斯天主教高中，我认为是 Power Central，他们有一位第一，马克·雷斯斯蒂纳 (Marc Resstiner)。
Still remember, wow.
还记得，哇。
He was feared, and no one could beat him.
他被人畏惧，没有人能打败他。
1:46:26 And on the day of the match, I had the Russian flu, basically.
比赛当天，我基本上得了俄罗斯流感。
I was the hope, I was the number one, the wonder kid from Germany.
我是希望，我是第一，是来自德国的神奇孩子。
And they took me to a doctor, and the doctor gave me an injection.
他们带我去看医生，医生给我打了一针。
And I don’t know until this day because I was just a kid, I got the injection, I was 17, and I felt great.
直到今天我才知道，因为我还是个孩子，我接受了注射，当时我 17 岁，我感觉很棒。
Like, the flu was gone like this.
就这样，流感就这样消失了。
It was probably an opioid, something, you know, something that just shuts off all the pain and gives you energy.
它可能是一种阿片类药物，某种可以消除所有疼痛并给你能量的东西。
And I beat this guy— …in a way, I totally, I thought of a new technique by playing very high balls.
我打败了这个家伙……在某种程度上，我完全想到了一种新技术，就是打很高的球。
Like, in the direct, fierceful competition, I would have lost, so I played something that in Germany, we call “Lüddeln,” which is something you don’t really do.
就像，在直接、激烈的竞争中，我会输，所以我演奏了一些在德国我们称之为“Lüddeln”的东西，这是你不会真正做的事情。
You just play high balls—
你只是打高球——
Lobbying, yeah, yeah.
游说，是啊，是啊。
…which is not pretty to look at, but it’s very effective.
……虽然看起来不太漂亮，但非常有效。
1:47:25 And he just lost, he just lost his nerve, and I beat him like 6-0, 6-0, something like that.
他就输了，他失去了勇气，我以 6-0、6-0 之类的方式击败了他。
Sensational.
耸人听闻。
So Hitler receives this Dolantin injection, and he gets up, he goes into the meeting room, he dominates the meeting room, he feels great.
希特勒接受了多冷丁注射，他站起来，走进会议室，他主导了会议室，他感觉很棒。
He decides, you know, in front of everybody, no one is able to…
他决定，你知道，在所有人面前，没有人能够……
no one overpowers him in that meeting.
在那次会议上没有人能压倒他。
He was very good in the room.
他在房间里表现得很好。
And the troops are split up.
且兵力分散。
Like Leningrad is now a target.
就像列宁格勒现在是一个目标一样。
This weakens the general thrust towards Moscow.
这削弱了对莫斯科的总体推动力。
This is probably why they didn’t take Moscow.
这可能就是他们没有占领莫斯科的原因。
They probably could have taken it, or maybe not, you know, but the decision was made in August to…
他们可能会接受，也可能不会，你知道，但决定是在八月做出的……
I think it’s one of the biggest blunders of the Eastern Front.
我认为这是东线最大的错误之一。
To not take Moscow.
不拿下莫斯科。
To not take Moscow.
不拿下莫斯科。
1:48:15 I think they had a straight shot given the…
我认为他们直接射门了……
Right
右
…disorganization.
……混乱。
They had the one-time thing, the one-time moment where they could have done it.
他们拥有一次性的事情，一次性的时刻，他们可以做到这一点。
1:48:20 And the German war machine could only win in so-called speed wars, like lightning war.
德国战争机器只能在所谓的速度战中获胜，比如闪电战。
Only if they would do it very fast and surprise, because they were always weaker, basically.
除非他们做得非常快并且令人惊讶，因为基本上他们总是比较弱。
They just had this moment, this dynamic moment, and this was fueled by the methamphetamine.
他们刚刚经历了这一刻，这充满活力的时刻，而这都是由甲基苯丙胺推动的。
Also, in the Soviet Union, hundreds of millions of dosages were given, so the Germans were really going.
而且，在苏联，注射了数亿剂量，所以德国人真的很努力。
And at one point, this ends, you know?
在某一时刻，一切都会结束，你知道吗？
You can’t take meth for the rest of your life.
你不能终生服用冰毒。
You’re just going to end up being a nervous wreck.
你最终会变得精神崩溃。
But you can do it for like two months.
但你可以做到两个月左右。
You could do it, but then it stops.
你可以做到，但然后它就停止了。
I think if you’re really honest about where you have the asymmetry of power, which is in the speed of the Blitzkrieg, so that’s similar to Genghis Khan, who had a very small military, but their advantage was, I mean, I think at the peak it would be probably 100,000, and but every soldier of Genghis Khan’s had five horses.
我认为，如果你真的诚实地了解权力不对称的地方，即闪电战的速度，那么这与成吉思汗类似，他的军队规模很小，但他们的优势是，我的意思是，我认为在高峰时期可能有 100,000 人，但成吉思汗的每个士兵都有五匹马。
1:48:55 So the…
所以……
Right
右
…the whole point was they can move really fast.
……重点是他们的移动速度非常快。
1:49:22 They, and they, not just fast, but they can move on all terrain, so they can go around.
他们，他们，不仅速度快，而且可以在所有地形上移动，所以他们可以四处走动。
You know, if wars were fought on normal roads, you’re supposed to travel a certain kind of way.
你知道，如果战争是在普通道路上进行的，你就应该以某种方式行驶。
If you go fast and around, not on paths that are usually taken, attack from all kinds of sides, that’s why you can conquer as much as Genghis Khan was able to conquer.
如果你走得快，绕着走，不走通常走的路，从各个方面进攻，这就是为什么你可以像成吉思汗那样征服。
And the same thing with the Nazi forces, this is their biggest advantage.
和纳粹势力一样，这就是他们最大的优势。
And not using that is essentially the end of its effectiveness.
不使用它基本上就失去了它的有效性。
I think that’s also why the tank troops were such a good weapon, because they can go off-road while military vehicles, cars, cannot do it.
我认为这也是为什么坦克部队是一种很好的武器，因为他们可以越野，而军用车辆、汽车却不能这样做。
1:49:59 Like a tank can even go through a forest and just, you know, kill small trees and just run over it.
就像坦克甚至可以穿过森林，杀死小树然后从上面碾过一样。
So that was those are kind of the five horses that was the idea that they had at this working breakfast.
这就是他们在这次工作早餐中想到的五匹马。
That’s what they presented to Hitler.
这就是他们向希特勒展示的东西。
“We’re going to use the tank force in a very different way, and that’s going to enable us to win the lightning war of campaigns.”
“我们将以一种非常不同的方式使用坦克部队，这将使我们能够赢得闪电战的战役。”
Was it one of the first times he tried an opiate like that?
这是他第一次尝试这样的鸦片制剂吗？
1:50:29 An intense one?
一场激烈的？
That was the first time.
那是第一次。
And then that was it for him?
然后他就这样了？
1:50:36 He loved it?
他喜欢吗？
Well, not immediately.
嗯，不是立即。
1:50:38 You can see when you study his medications, that that is the turning point in a way, that now he deviates from the vitamins.
当你研究他的药物时，你可以看到，这在某种程度上是一个转折点，现在他偏离了维生素。
He becomes more interested in what’s out there.
他对外面的事物变得更感兴趣。
And from ’41 to ’43, he tries out a lot of medications that he didn’t try out before.
从41年到43年，他尝试了很多以前没有尝试过的药物。
Before that, it was quite conventional, mostly vitamins and glucose.
在此之前，它是相当传统的，主要是维生素和葡萄糖。
But now he becomes experimental, and he discusses this with Morell.
但现在他变得具有实验性，他与莫雷尔讨论了这个问题。
And Morell is also very experimental.
而且莫雷尔也非常具有实验性。
They really nerded themselves into, like, “What can we use?” Like, bull’s testicle extracts.
他们真的让自己陷入了这样的困境：“我们能用什么？”比如，公牛的睾丸提取物。
So, Morell, in order to present those things to his patient A, he created a pharmaceutical company that he ran.
因此，莫雷尔为了向他的患者 A 展示这些东西，他创建了一家自己经营的制药公司。
1:51:32 He was, so he was the personal physician of Hitler, and he was also the CEO of Hammer Pharmaceuticals, which had its production site in occupied Czechoslovakia.
他是，所以他是希特勒的私人医生，他也是哈默制药公司的首席执行官，该公司的生产基地位于被占领的捷克斯洛伐克。
And for example, at one point when Germany had invaded Ukraine, Morell asked for a monopoly for all the organs of all the slaughtered animals from all the slaughterhouses in Ukraine.
例如，当德国入侵乌克兰时，莫雷尔要求垄断乌克兰所有屠宰场所有被屠宰动物的所有器官。
So, this was a huge logistical operation.
所以，这是一次巨大的后勤行动。
All the slaughtered animals, all the organs were removed for the personal physician of the Fuhrer, sent in military trains back to the factory in occupied Czechoslovakia.
所有被屠宰的动物、所有器官都被切除给元首的私人医生，用军用列车送回被占领的捷克斯洛伐克的工厂。
1:52:16 And the military became really upset with that, because they said, “We need our trains to transport back our wounded soldiers.” Now there are cars full with offal and pigs’ hearts and pigs’ livers, and it was totally bizarre.
军方对此感到非常沮丧，因为他们说，“我们需要火车来运回受伤的士兵。”现在满车都是内脏、猪心、猪肝，真是太奇怪了。
But Morell then became, he was this good-natured Dr. Feelgood in the beginning, and then when Ukraine was occupied, he became just a business freak who made a lot of money with his dubious hormonal concoctions, where he would threaten the army.
但莫雷尔后来变成了，一开始他就是这个好脾气的感觉古德博士，然后当乌克兰被占领时，他变成了一个商业怪人，他用可疑的荷尔蒙混合物赚了很多钱，在那里他会威胁军队。
“If you don’t let the train with my raw materials go to my factory, I will tell Hitler, and you will have a problem.” He was acting like that.
“如果你不让载着我原材料的火车开往我的工厂，我就会告诉希特勒，你就会有麻烦了。”他就是这么做的。
He became quite an asshole, actually.
事实上，他变成了一个混蛋。
1:53:04 And a war criminal, because he also, at his factory where he would make the famous pig liver extract that was then tested by Hitler, and Hitler said, “That’s a good medication.
他也是一名战犯，因为他也在他的工厂里制造著名的猪肝提取物，然后希特勒对其进行了测试，希特勒说：“这是一种很好的药物。
I feel more, I have more energy.
我感觉更多，我有更多能量。
So, this can also be sold to the German military.” That’s how it worked.
所以，这个也可以卖给德国军方。”这就是它的工作原理。
Because the regulations at the time were, and that it was very difficult to bring out a new medication onto the market.
因为当时的规定是，将新药推向市场非常困难。
Because medications, to bring them onto the market, you need certain test phases and all of that stuff.
因为药物，要将它们推向市场，你需要某些测试阶段和所有这些东西。
So, that’s hard to do in a war, especially in World War II.
所以，这在战争中很难做到，尤其是在第二次世界大战中。
So, Hitler said to Morell, “I’m going to be your guinea pig.
因此，希特勒对莫雷尔说：“我将成为你的小白鼠。
1:53:44 You just make it in your factory, I test it, and if I think it’s good, then I’m just going to write a…” Today, you would say, like, a decree.
你只要在你的工厂里做，我测试一下，如果我认为它很好，那么我就写一个……”今天，你会说，就像一个法令。
“You know, because I’m the president, you know, I can, and I can order it, that it’s going to be legal all over Germany.”
“你知道，因为我是总统，你知道，我可以，我可以下令，这将在整个德国都是合法的。”
So, Hitler was a real drug guy.
所以，希特勒是一个真正的毒枭。
1:53:58 He liked drugs.
他喜欢毒品。
Well, he liked to experiment, I would say, with drugs and with Morell.
嗯，我想说，他喜欢用药物和莫雷尔进行实验。
1:54:02 They never…
他们从不……
He was against drugs, you know?
他反对毒品，你知道吗？
He was…
他是……
But that’s a crazy thing for a guy who didn’t do anything, right?
但这对于一个什么都没做的人来说是一件疯狂的事情，对吧？
It’s a big contradiction, or it’s a big irony, or it’s very weird.
这是一个很大的矛盾，或者说这是一个很大的讽刺，或者说这是一个很奇怪的事情。
But isn’t it even a bit of a mystery?
但这不是有点神秘吗？
1:54:21 At that stage, I’m sure he was paranoid about being killed and all that kind of stuff.
在那个阶段，我确信他对被杀之类的事情感到偏执。
So, he must have really trusted Morell, right?
那么，他一定非常信任莫雷尔，对吧？
Yeah, he trusted Morell because Morell was not part of any organization.
是的，他信任莫雷尔，因为莫雷尔不属于任何组织。
1:54:31 He was the loner coming from the VIP doctors, his own VIP doctor’s office, and now he was basically Hitler’s toy.
他是来自 VIP 医生、他自己的 VIP 医生办公室的孤独者，现在他基本上是希特勒的玩具。
Hitler could get access to all kinds of medications through him and Morell would never say it to anybody, you know?
希特勒可以通过他获得各种药物，莫雷尔永远不会告诉任何人，你知道吗？
He would just write it down.
他只会写下来。
But this was kept quite secret.
但这是保密的。
No one knew what was going on between the two men.
没有人知道这两个人之间发生了什么。
See, it’s just so interesting, because, like, why would he?
看，这太有趣了，因为，就像，他为什么会这么做？
1:54:54 There might be…
可能有……
Can you maybe even speak to that?
你能谈谈吗？
Why did Hitler trust another human being this much?
为什么希特勒如此信任另一个人？
You could probably make the case nobody was closer to Hitler than Morell.
你也许可以说，没有人比莫雷尔更接近希特勒。
That is certainly the story I’m telling.
这当然就是我要讲的故事。
Isn’t that crazy?
这不是很疯狂吗？
1:55:13 What is it about Morell?
莫雷尔到底是怎么回事？
This guy who’s…
这个家伙是……
I guess he’s fat and weird, and nobody really likes him.
我猜他又胖又奇怪，没有人真正喜欢他。
He was not a threat to Hitler.
他对希特勒没有威胁。
1:55:26 Hitler hated all the super smart medicine people.
希特勒讨厌所有超级聪明的医学人士。
He never undressed before them.
他从不在他们面前脱衣服。
He never let himself be seen naked, because he didn’t want anyone to know anything, you know, about him that he couldn’t control.
他从不让别人看到自己赤身裸体，因为他不想让任何人知道他无法控制的任何关于他的事情。
So, Morell was harmless.
所以，莫雷尔是无害的。
Morell basically did what Hitler wanted.
莫雷尔基本上按照希特勒的意愿行事。
They wouldn’t say, “We’re going to take— Today we’re going to take drugs together.
他们不会说：“我们要——今天我们要一起吸毒。
It’s going to be fun.” You know, Hitler was always about optimizing his performance, because he knew, “Only I’m doing this.
这会很有趣。”你知道，希特勒总是在优化他的表现，因为他知道，“只有我在这样做。
I have to…” And he always thought he was going to die young, so he always thought, “I don’t have unlimited time.
我必须……”而且他总是认为自己会英年早逝，所以他总是想，“我没有无限的时间。
1:56:06 The clock was always ticking, so I have to always be the high performer.” So Hitler, when he first experienced the beauty of the opioid high that was given to him in August 1941 intravenously, when he experienced that, his eyes opened.
时间总是在流逝，所以我必须永远是表现最好的人。”因此，当希特勒第一次体验到 1941 年 8 月静脉注射阿片类药物带来的快感时，他的眼睛睁开了。
And he didn’t think this was a drug.
而且他不认为这是毒品。
I mean, this is a medicine.
我的意思是，这是一种药。
This is a medicine that helps me function.
这是一种帮助我发挥功能的药物。
This is a medicine that my doctor gives me in a very controlled manner, and that lets me be extremely sharp for, like, eight hours.
这是我的医生以一种非常可控的方式给我开的药，它让我在大约八个小时内保持极度敏锐。
I can convince all the generals.
我可以说服所有将军。
I can do my job.
我可以做我的工作。
I’m happy.
我很高兴。
Because Hitler was also depressed, you know?
因为希特勒也很沮丧，你知道吗？
I mean, he really appreciated what the drug gave him, but he never thought, “Now I’m becoming a drug addict,” or…
我的意思是，他真的很感激毒品给他带来的一切，但他从未想过，“现在我变成了一个瘾君子”，或者……
So, oxycodone in general begins to work within 30 to 60 minutes, and lasts for about four to six hours.
因此，羟考酮一般会在 30 至 60 分钟内开始发挥作用，并持续约 4 至 6 小时。
1:56:57 This is a long-lasting thing.
这是一件长久的事情。
Yeah, but this is, you swallow.
是的，但这就是，你吞下去。
1:57:06 If you get an intravenous injection, it works after one second.
如果你进行静脉注射，一秒钟后就会起作用。
Wow.
哇。
Get the injection, you’re high, but that—
接受注射，你很兴奋，但是——
But it lasts for many hours.
但它持续了好几个小时。
Yeah.
是的。
1:57:15 That’s why people who take heroin love it, because you feel like shit, you take the injection, you feel great.
这就是为什么吸食海洛因的人喜欢它，因为你感觉很糟糕，你注射了注射剂，你感觉很棒。
I mean, it’s in your system for quite a while.
我的意思是，它在你的系统中已经存在很长一段时间了。
You can go into the meeting quite comfortably.
您可以很轻松地参加会议。
Into the meeting.
进入会议。
1:57:28 Yeah, okay.
是啊，好吧。
I mean, there’s the briefing.
我的意思是，有简报。
1:57:30 It starts at 1:00.
1:00 开始。
Morell comes, and you can see this in the notes.
莫雷尔来了，你可以在笔记中看到这一点。
Like, “I have to be at the Fuhrer in his bedroom at 12:00.” And then, you know, you chat a bit, and then Hitler rolls up his uniform sleeve, and then he gets the injection maybe at 12:30.
比如，“我必须在 12:00 到达元首的卧室。”然后，你知道，你们聊了一会儿，然后希特勒卷起他的制服袖子，然后他可能在 12:30 接受注射。
Then the high comes on, and then it’s very stable.
然后高点出现，然后就非常稳定。
You feel great.
你感觉棒极了。
This is a pure product from the Merck company.
这是默克公司的纯品。
This is not some heroin from the street.
这不是街上的海洛因。
And Morell knows exactly what dosage you want right now, so you feel at the top of your game.
莫雷尔确切地知道您现在想要什么剂量，因此您感觉自己处于最佳状态。
You don’t feel…
你不觉得……
You’re not intoxicated.
你没有醉。
I mean, you are, but it makes you clear, you know?
我的意思是，你是，但这让你很清楚，你知道吗？
So the mind is clear?
那么头脑清楚吗？
The mind’s totally clear.
头脑完全清醒。
1:58:12 Your body feels fantastic.
你的身体感觉棒极了。
You know exactly your points.
你很清楚你的观点。
You know exactly how the others…
你很清楚其他人是如何……
Because the others are just mortals, you know, because they’re sober.
因为其他人只是凡人，你知道，因为他们是清醒的。
They just sit there, and they just…
他们只是坐在那里，他们只是……
They haven’t slept very well, or they have problems with them, you know?
他们睡得不好，或者他们有问题，你知道吗？
And you’re way above them.
而你远远高于他们。
What do we know about its general psychological effects?
我们对它的一般心理影响了解多少？
1:58:30 Does it boost your confidence?
它会增强你的信心吗？
Does it boost aggressiveness?
它会增强攻击性吗？
What effect did it have on his vision of the world?
这对他的世界观有何影响？
It makes you feel extremely confident.
它让你感到无比自信。
1:58:40 You have a lot of energy, but it’s not too much.
你有很多能量，但不是太多。
Let’s say you take cocaine or methamphetamine, you’re like— That’s why Hitler was never a meth guy.
假设你服用可卡因或甲基苯丙胺，你会想——这就是为什么希特勒从来都不是一个吸毒者。
That’s also why I think this video is fake.
这也是为什么我认为这个视频是假的。
He didn’t take meth.
他没有服用冰毒。
I studied Morell’s, the things he gave him.
我研究了莫雷尔的，研究了他给他的东西。
He gave a lot of things, and only twice was meth.
他给了很多东西，但只有两次是冰毒。
So that’s not a lot for Hitler, like twice.
所以这对希特勒来说并不是很多，大约两次。
I read that the multivitamin had some amphetamine and maybe meth, a little bit, or no?
我读到复合维生素含有一些安非他命，也许还有冰毒，有一点，还是没有？
It’s-
这是——
Multi-
多
I mean, I’ve s-
我的意思是，我已经-
Vitamultin.
维生素。
Vitamultine.
维生素。
Multine.
多尼。
Vitamultine is interesting because it was a little bar of a sweet that was lying next to his food, so he would just, you know, eat, and then at the end, he would take this.
Vitamultine 很有趣，因为它是一小块糖果，放在他的食物旁边，所以他会，你知道，吃，然后最后，他会吃这个。
1:59:17 It was nice-tasting.
味道很好。
It had some sugar in it.
里面有一些糖。
And I read through all of the, you know, ingredients.
我通读了所有的成分。
There were different types, and there was never methamphetamine in it.
有不同的类型，而且里面从来没有甲基苯丙胺。
Oh, there isn’t?
哦，没有吗？
1:59:37 Okay.
好的。
No.
不。
1:59:39 There was an SS, Dr. Schenck, and he claims that Morell made special Vitamultine in his lab with meth in it, but I think he just made that up.
有一个党卫军，申克博士，他声称莫雷尔在他的实验室里制作了特殊的维生素复合剂，里面含有冰毒，但我认为他只是编造的。
There was never any proof of that.
从来没有任何证据证明这一点。
I mean, that’s a really important line to draw.
我的意思是，这是一条非常重要的界限。
1:59:54 The army, the Nazi army, at scale, not everybody, but some fraction, especially during the French campaign, used meth.
军队，纳粹军队，在规模上，不是所有人，而是一小部分，特别是在法国战役期间，使用了冰毒。
And then there’s Hitler, who used a lot of drugs, but meth was not one of them, really.
还有希特勒，他使用了很多毒品，但冰毒并不是其中之一，真的。
No, meth, for him, was just for the foot soldiers, you know?
不，冰毒，对于他来说，只是为了步兵，你知道吗？
2:00:18 He didn’t even talk about meth.
他甚至没有谈论冰毒。
This is nothing that concerned him, you know?
这与他无关，你知道吗？
This is something that makes you function.
这是让你发挥作用的东西。
Maybe…
也许……
He signed…
他签了...
I mean, the stimulant decree went over his desk, but I don’t know if he really read it or understood it.
我的意思是，兴奋剂法令在他的办公桌上翻过，但我不知道他是否真的阅读或理解了它。
I mean, he probably knew Pervitin because everyone knew it.
我的意思是，他可能认识 Pervitin，因为每个人都知道。
And maybe, you know, they discussed it, but they would probably also not…
也许，你知道，他们讨论过这个问题，但他们也可能不会……
I mean, there was a point when there’s a conflict about methamphetamine in the army.
我的意思是，曾经有一段时间，军队中存在关于甲基苯丙胺的冲突。
This is when the Secretary of Health of the German government, the Nazi government Conti, he starts writing to the army, and he says, “You must stop this.
这时，德国政府、纳粹政府的卫生部长孔蒂开始写信给军队，他说：“你们必须停止这种行为。
This is against Nazi ideology.” But the army basically doesn’t listen to him and keeps on using meth all the way to the end.
这违背了纳粹意识形态。”但军队基本上不听他的，一直到最后都继续使用冰毒。
2:01:03 So maybe that guy, Conti, maybe he discussed this with Hitler, but…
所以也许那个人，孔蒂，也许他和希特勒讨论过这个问题，但是……
Also, Hitler never…
而且，希特勒从来没有...
You know, if Hitler would have said, “We stop the methamphetamine,” it probably would have stopped.
你知道，如果希特勒说：“我们停止使用甲基苯丙胺”，它可能就会停止。
But Conti saying that wasn’t enough.
但孔蒂说这还不够。
I don’t think Hitler was really into meth.
我认为希特勒并不真正喜欢冰毒。
It was not his thing.
这不是他的事。
He was more into the opioids, into these weird hormonal things.
他更喜欢阿片类药物，更喜欢这些奇怪的荷尔蒙物质。
Like, those things were, especially the opioids, were interesting to him, because you can function on opioids for a long time if you have a proper product and a doctor that gives you the injections.
就像，这些东西，尤其是阿片类药物，对他来说很有趣，因为如果你有合适的产品和给你注射的医生，你可以长期服用阿片类药物。
Göring was high on, was addicted to morphine from 1923 until when the Americans captured him in ’45.
戈林从 1923 年开始就对吗啡上瘾，直到 45 年被美国人抓获。
That’s 22 years he was functioning on morphine.
那是他依靠吗啡维持功能的 22 年。
And when they captured him, he had…
当他们抓住他时，他……
2:01:53 I write about it in Blitz, like the amount of morphine capsules he had on him.
我在《闪电战》中写到了这一点，比如他身上携带的吗啡胶囊的数量。
So the Americans did was first take away all the morphine from him, and then he went through withdrawal in American, you know, incarceration.
所以美国人首先拿走了他所有的吗啡，然后他在美国经历了戒毒，你知道，监禁。
And he lost a lot of pounds, and he became more of a haggard Göring, which was then in Nuremberg, you know, this haggard kind of guy defending what he did.
他减掉了很多磅，他变得更加憔悴的戈林，当时在纽伦堡，你知道，这个憔悴的人为他所做的事情辩护。
So Hitler was really an opioid guy, while the army was really meth-ed up.
所以希特勒确实是一个吸食阿片类药物的人，而军队确实是经过了治疗的。
That’s how you could sum it up briefly.
这就是您可以简要总结的方式。
He did try cocaine.
他确实尝试过可卡因。
2:02:26 Why didn’t he get into cocaine?
他为什么没有吸食可卡因？
He started cocaine after the bomb attack by Stauffenberg on July 20th, 1944.
1944 年 7 月 20 日施陶芬贝格炸弹袭击后，他开始吸食可卡因。
2:02:30 When this bomb went off, which actually killed a few people in the room, this was during a military briefing.
当这颗炸弹爆炸时，房间里有几个人被炸死，当时是在一次军事简报会上。
Stauffenberg put a bag with explosives under the table, and the table actually saved Hitler’s life because it was a good German quality oak table.
施陶芬贝格在桌子下面放了一个装有炸药的袋子，这张桌子实际上救了希特勒的命，因为它是一张德国品质的橡木桌子。
So the table was so stable that the bomb explosion kind of just, it kind of blew up the table, but Hitler behind the table was protected by this table.
所以桌子非常稳定，以至于炸弹爆炸有点，它炸毁了桌子，但桌子后面的希特勒受到了这张桌子的保护。
Yeah, this is the closest assassination attempt, probably.
是的，这可能是最近的一次暗杀企图。
Yeah.
是的。
2:03:04 I mean, it’s very weird that it didn’t succeed because he had the bomb.
我的意思是，很奇怪，因为他有炸弹，所以没有成功。
He put it next to Hitler.
他把它放在希特勒旁边。
He took out some of the explosives before he went into the room.
进房间之前，他取出了一些炸药。
This is one of the big mysteries.
这是最大的谜团之一。
Why did Stauffenberg take out some of the explosives?
施陶芬贝格为什么要取出一些炸药？
There’s no explanation for it.
对此没有任何解释。
But Hitler survived, but he was quite injured, which Nazi propaganda always denied.
但希特勒活了下来，但他受了重伤，纳粹宣传一直否认这一点。
They always said the Führer was miraculously unharmed.
他们总是说元首奇迹般地没有受伤。
But he was quite harmed.
但他却受到了很大的伤害。
There were over a hundred splinters from the wood everywhere.
到处都有一百多个木头碎片。
His eardrums were blown, which was, you know, it’s quite an injury, I guess.
他的耳膜被吹破了，你知道，我想这是一次相当严重的伤害。
You know, he was bleeding internally and he was shell-shocked basically.
你知道，他正在内出血，而且他基本上处于炮弹休克状态。
And then a new doctor comes in.
然后一位新医生进来了。
His name is Keesing.
他的名字叫基辛。
Because Morell was not a…
因为莫雷尔不是……
2:03:51 In Germany, we have, well, I guess worldwide, it’s the ear, nose, and throat specialist, right?
在德国，我想全世界都有耳鼻喉专家，对吧？
So an ear, nose, and throat specialist from the German army called Dr. Keesing, he was ordered to come into headquarters after the bomb attack to treat Hitler’s blown eardrums.
德国陆军的耳鼻喉科专家基辛医生在炸弹袭击后奉命前往总部治疗希特勒受损的耳膜。
And Keesing gave Hitler cocaine, because cocaine at the time was being, was…
基辛给了希特勒可卡因，因为可卡因当时是……
You know, it was used.
你知道，它被使用了。
It was not Schedule 1, you know.
你知道，这不是附表 1。
It had the effect that it would numb the pain.
它的作用是麻痹疼痛。
And you could, you could like use it, you would like put it on a certain place where you had the pain and then it would numb that area.
你可以，你可以喜欢使用它，你想把它放在你疼痛的某个地方，然后它会让那个区域麻木。
2:04:35 But Hitler was like, he had never taken cocaine before, but he got very interested in it.
但希特勒说，他以前从未吸过可卡因，但他对此非常感兴趣。
And Keesing writes a meticulous report about his experiences with Hitler.
基辛写了一份关于他与希特勒的经历的细致报告。
Alone, that report is really fun to read.
单独来看这份报告读起来真的很有趣。
It’s about a 15-page report that he did for American military after the war.
这是关于他战后为美国军方所做的一份 15 页的报告。
When he was being interrogated by American military, he described what happened with Hitler and him.
当他接受美国军方审讯时，他描述了希特勒和他的遭遇。
And he realized that Hitler really liked the cocaine, and then he started saying, “Now give it in the nose now,” and then it was a liquid that he could apply with a dab like into the nose.
他意识到希特勒真的很喜欢可卡因，然后他开始说，“现在把它放进鼻子里，”然后它是一种液体，他可以轻轻地涂抹到鼻子里。
Oh, shit.
妈的。
Like, it wasn’t cocaine powder, but he could like…
就像，这不是可卡因粉，但他可能喜欢……
It was liquified.
它被液化了。
2:05:14 Yeah, interesting.
是的，有趣。
Liquified cocaine.
液态可卡因。
2:05:16 And Hitler loved it, and he’s just saying things like, “Finally, I can think clear again.” And he had this cocaine rush, which is a rush of superiority.
希特勒很喜欢这样，他只是说，“我终于可以再次清晰地思考了。”他有一种可卡因的冲动，这是一种优越感的冲动。
It’s a dangerous drug because you think you know more than the other.
这是一种危险的药物，因为你认为你比别人知道的更多。
It’s not a very humble drug, you know.
你知道，这不是一种非常不起眼的药物。
It just increases the ego.
它只会增加自我。
And that actually…
而那实际上……
he liked that because that was…
他喜欢那个，因为那是……
you know, after the bomb attack, he thought everyone was a traitor.
要知道，炸弹袭击事件发生后，他认为所有人都是叛徒。
He didn’t feel safe anymore in his own bunker, you know.
你知道，他在自己的地堡里不再感到安全。
And he was like, “Nazis…” The right wing is always paranoid.
他说，“纳粹……”右翼总是偏执。
Like, “Who’s the enemy?” Like, “They’re behind us.” Like, “They’re stabbing us in the back.” So Hitler was this type of person.
比如“谁是敌人？”就像，“他们在我们身后。”就像，“他们在背后捅我们一刀。”所以希特勒就是这样的人。
2:05:58 So the cocaine kind of stabilized him, and Keesing realized that this guy is like a drug guy.
所以可卡因让他稳定下来，基辛意识到这个人就像一个毒贩。
He didn’t know.
他不知道。
He came in.
他进来了。
He saw the Führer for the first time.
他第一次见到元首。
He was in awe.
他很敬畏。
And like a drug wreck was approaching him.
就像毒品残骸正在向他逼近。
And as soon as he had some cocaine in his system, ’cause this was summer of ’44, he had already taken a lot of opioids and a lot of drugs.
当他的体内出现一些可卡因时，因为那是 44 年的夏天，他已经服用了大量的阿片类药物和毒品。
So he, and a lot of these dubious hormonal concoctions, which led to autoimmune diseases in Hitler, maybe even had Parkinson’s.
因此，他和许多可疑的荷尔蒙混合物导致了希特勒的自身免疫性疾病，甚至可能患有帕金森氏症。
He was…
他是……
Morell basically turned him into a physical wreck.
莫雷尔基本上把他变成了一个身体残骸。
That Keesing also writes about this like he’s trembling before he goes into the room for the first time where the Führer is.
基辛也写到了这一点，就像他在第一次进入元首所在的房间之前颤抖一样。
2:06:35 And then there’s like an old guy in a blue kind of pajama, kind of coming up to him and kind of shaking his hand.
然后就像一个穿着蓝色睡衣的老家伙走到他面前并与他握手。
“That’s the Führer,” you know.
“那是元首，”你知道。
And Keesing is totally shocked because it’s like, you know, the destiny of the German nation, the whole Europe, everything is like…
基辛完全震惊了，因为这就像，你知道，德国民族、整个欧洲的命运，一切就像……
…Hangs on this guy, you know.
……抓住这个家伙，你知道。
And then whenever he takes cocaine, he’s a little bit better, like…
然后每当他服用可卡因时，他就会好一点，就像……
But the cocaine had the problem that Keesing was more of a, at least later in his discussions with the US military, he described himself as a conscientious guy.
但可卡因有一个问题，基辛更像是一个，至少在后来与美军的讨论中，他形容自己是一个有责任心的人。
And he’s like, “I became like…
他就像，“我变得像......
I had the kind of problems giving Hitler more cocaine.” And…
我遇到了给希特勒更多可卡因的问题。”还有……
Yeah, and I’m sure Hitler could have sensed that.
是的，我确信希特勒可能已经意识到了这一点。
And then Morell started disliking Keesing because Hitler spent more time now with Keesing than with him.
然后莫雷尔开始不喜欢基辛，因为希特勒现在和基辛在一起的时间比和他在一起的时间还要多。
2:07:20 And there was this, what I call, the doctor’s war ensued, ’cause Keesing then tried to get rid of Morell, because Keesing could suddenly see that Hitler was receiving a lot of drugs.
就这样，我称之为医生的战争随之而来，因为基辛随后试图摆脱莫雷尔，因为基辛突然发现希特勒正在接受大量药物。
And he was taking cocaine with Keesing.
他和基辛一起吸食可卡因。
Keesing left the room, then Morell would come in and give him Eukodal opioid intravenously, which is the speedball effect.
基辛离开房间，然后莫雷尔会进来给他静脉注射优科达阿片类药物，这就是速球效应。
Cocaine and an opioid, you know, at the same time.
你知道，可卡因和阿片类药物同时存在。
That’s like, that creates a really crazy high.
就像，这创造了一个非常疯狂的高潮。
But that’s a high that’s not stable anymore, you know.
但你知道，这是一个不再稳定的高点。
That’s a high that you…
那是你的高度……
That’s like at the end of your drug career, you take the speedball.
这就像在你的毒品生涯结束时，你拿起了快速球。
So speedball is a combination of a stimulant…
所以速度球是一种兴奋剂的组合......
Right
右
…and a depressant.
……还有镇静剂。
2:08:10 Cocaine and heroin.
可卡因和海洛因。
Opioids are depressants.
阿片类药物是抑制剂。
Yeah.
是的。
2:08:15 So combining cocaine and heroin, huh?
那么可卡因和海洛因的混合物，是吧？
Wow.
哇。
Oh.
哦。
I’ve never had a speedball, but I think it’s like the most hardcore drug experience you can have, you know.
我从来没有玩过快速球，但我认为这就像你能拥有的最硬核的毒品体验，你知道。
2:08:20 And Hitler had this in the summer of 1944 for quite some time.
希特勒在 1944 年夏天就这样度过了相当长的一段时间。
And then the doctors really fought for influence over Hitler.
然后医生们真的为对希特勒的影响力而战。
And Keesing teamed up with Himmler, head of the SS, and basically said to Himmler, “This Morell guy…” And Himmler was really suspicious of Morell, obviously, because Morell’s spending so much time with Hitler.
基辛与党卫军头目希姆莱合作，基本上对希姆莱说：“莫雷尔这个家伙……”显然，希姆莱真的对莫雷尔很怀疑，因为莫雷尔花了很多时间和希特勒在一起。
There’s no control, like Himmler was a control freak.
没有控制权，就像希姆莱是一个控制狂一样。
What is he actually giving to the Führer?
他实际上给了元首什么？
The Führer doesn’t look good anymore.
元首看起来不再好看了。
2:08:53 So Keesing was trying to get Morell out.
所以基辛试图把莫雷尔救出来。
Maybe because he wanted Hitler to have better health, maybe he wanted to have the job himself.
也许是因为他希望希特勒有更好的健康，也许他想自己得到这份工作。
He certainly tried to get rid of Morell, and it came to like, a high noon situation, like the duel between the two doctors.
他当然试图摆脱莫雷尔，而这就像正午的情况，就像两个医生之间的决斗。
It’s, by the way, why I think it’s completely insane that Hollywood hasn’t bought the rights yet, alone this doctor’s war.
顺便说一句，这就是为什么我认为好莱坞还没有购买版权，光是这场医生的战争就完全是疯狂的。
You mean for the entire Blitz story, or?
你是说整个闪电战故事，还是？
Yeah, of course.
是的，当然。
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊，是啊。
2:09:22 That’s really…
那真是……
I mean, some of the greatest movies…
我的意思是，一些最伟大的电影......
I mean, like Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.
我的意思是，就像拉斯维加斯的恐惧与厌恶。
You can do a drug movie on the Nazis.
你可以拍一部关于纳粹的毒品电影。
You know, one of my favorite movies, probably Downfall, which is Hitler in the bunker, which does, I guess…
你知道，我最喜欢的电影之一，可能是《堕落》，是地堡里的希特勒，我猜……
2:09:31 Does Downfall have a drug…
堕落有没有药...
No.
不。
…
……
2:09:38 component to that?
组成部分？
They missed, they missed the drug angle.
他们错过了，他们错过了毒品的角度。
2:09:39 Because my book hadn’t been out yet, they didn’t know about it.
因为我的书还没有出版，他们还不知道。
That’s why they can’t…
这就是为什么他们不能……
That’d be a different story.
那将是一个不同的故事。
They can’t really explain why Hitler became a physical wreck.
他们无法真正解释为什么希特勒变成了一个身体残骸。
2:09:46 There’s no explanation for it except the drugs.
除了药物之外，没有任何解释。
Well-
嗯-
The opioid addiction.
阿片类药物成瘾。
You could explain it.
你可以解释一下。
2:09:54 It is a part of it that you’re…
这是它的一部分，你是……
it’s just an extremely stressful position he’s in.
这只是他所处的一个压力极大的位置。
Yeah, but you don’t become a physical wreck if you’re…
是的，但是如果你……你就不会成为一个身体残骸。
And he’s losing the war.
他正在输掉这场战争。
2:10:03 The physical wreck aspect, yeah.
物理残骸方面，是的。
And there were two bedrooms in the bunker in Berlin.
柏林的地堡里有两间卧室。
2:10:06 Two bedrooms.
两间卧室。
One, of course, for Hitler, the other one for Morell.
当然，一张是给希特勒的，另一张是给莫雷尔的。
No one else was sleeping in the bunker.
地堡里没有其他人睡觉。
I mean, you can see the importance of, especially in those last months, of Morell in the bunker.
我的意思是，你可以看到莫雷尔在地堡里的重要性，尤其是在最后几个月。
And they didn’t get that when they made the movie, The Downfall.
当他们制作电影《The Downfall》时，他们并没有意识到这一点。
But it’s still an interesting movie, but I can’t take it seriously because they didn’t see this as a…
但这仍然是一部有趣的电影，但我不能认真对待它，因为他们不认为这是......
As a drug component.
作为药物成分。
It’s missing.
它不见了。
Again, I don’t think it has to be the main thing, but it has to be a part of it.
再说一次，我认为它不一定是主要的事情，但它必须是其中的一部分。
2:10:34 A serious movie on Blitzed would be really nice.
一部关于《Blitzed》的严肃电影真的很棒。
It’s not easy to do.
这并不容易做到。
No.
不。
There’s something about drugs, if you do a movie that involves drugs, that makes it…
毒品是有道理的，如果你拍一部涉及毒品的电影，那就……
2:10:46 You can go too far into like Tarantino territory…
你可以在塔伦蒂诺的领域走得太远……
Right
右
…
……
2:10:57 where it’s more like…
它更像是……
which is also incredible and awesome, but it’s a different thing.
这也令人难以置信和很棒，但这是另一回事。
Well, he invents history, and he’s very open about it.
嗯，他创造了历史，而且他对此非常开放。
Yeah.
是的。
Like, this is not what actually happened.
就像，这不是实际发生的事情。
2:11:05 I think a Blitzed movie would have to stick to the facts.
我认为一部闪电战电影必须坚持事实。
And I’ve spoken with some directors, very good German directors, and it’s just very hard to do.
我和一些导演谈过，非常优秀的德国导演，但这很难做到。
But…
但是……
But if you do it well, that’s a legendary movie.
但如果你做得好，那就是一部传奇电影。
I think it would be.
我想是的。
2:11:19 Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
That would be incredible.
那将是令人难以置信的。
2:11:20 Can you just speak high level from, from…
您能从…的高层发言吗？
What is it?
它是什么？
You said ’41 to ’45.
你说的是‘41到’45。
What were some behavioral changes or changes in decision-making that we can trace in Hitler that could be attributed to drugs?
我们可以在希特勒身上追踪到哪些行为变化或决策变化可以归因于毒品？
How did they change him?
他们是如何改变他的？
Well, an interesting event is July 1943 in a villa in Northern Italy where Hitler meets Mussolini.
1943 年 7 月，在意大利北部的一座别墅里发生了一件有趣的事情，希特勒在那里会见了墨索里尼。
2:11:43 Mussolini is basically fed up with the war and he wants Italy to leave the Axis of Evil.
墨索里尼基本上厌倦了战争，他希望意大利离开邪恶轴心。
Hitler is really pissed when he hears that.
希特勒听了真的很生气。
He knows that’s what the meeting is all about.
他知道这就是这次会议的目的。
Mussolini, I mean, the Italians invented that modern type of fascism, and Italy was the role model for Nazi Germany, but by now, Nazi Germany, of course, has been much more powerful.
墨索里尼，我的意思是，意大利人发明了现代法西斯主义，意大利是纳粹德国的榜样，但到目前为止，纳粹德国当然已经强大得多。
Italy is the most important ally, and now Mussolini is quitting in the middle of the war.
意大利是最重要的盟友，现在墨索里尼在战争中退出。
What is going on here?
这是怎么回事？
So Hitler becomes…
于是希特勒就变成了……
Morell writes about this quite a lot.
莫雷尔对此写了很多文章。
He’s in a terrible mood.
他的心情很糟糕。
He really doesn’t want to go.
他实在是不想去。
2:12:36 He might lose his temper or whatever.
他可能会发脾气或者其他什么。
He’s not happy.
他不高兴。
That’s actually the day when he receives Eukodal for the first time.
这实际上是他第一次收到 Eukodal 的日子。
He says to Morell, “I’m under such stress, I’m not going to go.” He threatens, he calls off the whole thing.
他对莫雷尔说：“我压力很大，我不会去。”他威胁，他取消了整件事。
The plane’s already waiting in Obersalzberg.
飞机已经在上萨尔茨堡等待。
Everything is ready, and he says, “I’m not meeting this guy.” Then Morell gives him Eukodal, and you can see the time when he gets the Eukodal.
一切都准备好了，他说：“我不会去见这个人。”然后莫雷尔给了他Eukodal，你可以看到他得到Eukodal的时间。
That’s when he has this effect for the first time, this like, “I can do anything.
那是他第一次有这种效果，就像，“我可以做任何事情。
This is great.
这太棒了。
2:13:11 I’m going to explain to Mussolini that he’s not going to leave the war effort.” On the way to the plane, he says to Morell that this Eukodal is really helping him, and he wants another shot, and he receives another shot.
我要向墨索里尼解释，他不会放弃战争努力。”在去飞机的路上，他对莫雷尔说，这个尤科达尔真的对他很有帮助，他想要再注射一次，他又注射了一次。
So he has quite a lot of Eukodal in him when he speaks to Mussolini.
所以当他与墨索里尼交谈时，他身上有很多尤科达尔的味道。
The people who write the protocol of the meeting and also other people around, it’s not just two people in the room.
起草会议协议的人和周围的其他人，不仅仅是房间里的两个人。
It’s like, I don’t know, 15 or 20 people in the room.
我不知道，房间里大概有 15 或 20 个人。
A lot of people talk about that meeting in their memoirs.
很多人在回忆录中都谈到了那次会议。
2:13:45 Mussolini is not able to say one word basically, because Hitler is so high and so charged.
墨索里尼基本上一句话也说不出来，因为希特勒太高调了。
He’s just telling the whole time how great this is, what they’re doing right now.
他只是一直在告诉人们这有多么伟大，他们现在正在做什么。
Of course, it’s not even possible that you’re going to leave.
当然，你也不可能离开。
We are in this together from the…
我们在一起从……
He explains everything, the whole thing for like two hours, and Mussolini is just like…
他解释了一切，整个事情花了大约两个小时，而墨索里尼就像……
Then a messenger comes in and says, “Rome has just been bombed.” He’s like, he knows, but he can’t say anything, and he stays.
然后一个信使进来说：“罗马刚刚被轰炸了。”他就像，他知道，但他什么也不能说，然后他留下来。
So that meeting was very much influenced by his Eukodal.
所以那次会议很大程度上受到了他的 Eukodal 的影响。
That’s probably because it was so successful in Hitler’s eyes…
这可能是因为它在希特勒眼中太成功了……
2:14:28 is why Eukodal became a very attractive drug for him.
这就是为什么 Eukodal 成为对他来说非常有吸引力的药物。
This was the first time in July 1943.
这是第一次，发生在 1943 年 7 月。
He didn’t take Eukodal the whole time.
他并没有一直服用Eukodal。
It only started in July ’43.
43年7月才开始。
He started with regular opioid use.
他开始定期使用阿片类药物。
You can see that he takes it more and more regularly now.
你可以看到他现在越来越频繁地服用它。
Not every day, but sometimes.
不是每天，但有时。
Like in September 1944, he takes Eukodal every second day, which is like a junkie rhythm.
和 1944 年 9 月一样，他每隔一天服用一次 Eukodal，这就像瘾君子的节奏。
You take it, and the next day you don’t take it.
你接受了，第二天你就不接受了。
Then you take it again.
然后你再拿它。
Why is that junkie rhythm?
为什么是那种瘾君子的节奏？
You don’t take it all the time because you need to relax.
你不会一直这样做，因为你需要放松。
2:14:59 You take it maybe Saturday night, and the high lasts until Sunday morning.
你可能会选择周六晚上，这种高潮会持续到周日早上。
Then Sunday, when the high slowly wears off, you sleep, and then you wake up and you’re hungry.
然后周日，当兴奋慢慢消退时，你睡觉，然后你醒来，你感到饥饿。
Maybe you eat.
也许你吃。
Then the next day, Monday, you’re going to do it again.
然后第二天，星期一，你又要这样做。
So that’s this rhythm.
所以就是这个节奏。
And it was more potent than what is it, Dolantine?
它比什么更有效，多兰汀？
Dolantine.
多兰汀。
Do- Dolan-
多-多兰-
Eukodal is said to have the best effect, the best in the sense that it’s not about strength.
据说Eukodal的效果是最好的，最好的意思是它与力量无关。
2:15:28 You just increase the dosage and you have a stronger effect, but you can’t increase it too much because then you’re going to die.
你只要增加剂量，就会有更强的效果，但你不能增加太多，因为那样你就会死。
That’s also the problem with opioids.
这也是阿片类药物的问题。
If you take too much, you’re going to die because you’re just going to have a heart attack.
如果你服用太多，你就会死，因为你会心脏病发作。
So but…
所以但是……
There are nuanced differences that…
存在细微差别……
Yeah, th-
是的，那个——
…it’s hard to convert into words, I guess.
……我想这很难转化为文字。
2:15:48 Yeah.
是的。
Different molecules have different effects.
不同的分子有不同的作用。
2:15:50 So Eukodal apparently had the best effect.
所以Eukodal显然效果最好。
That’s why they had the oxycodone epidemic in America, because people take this pill.
这就是美国羟考酮流行的原因，因为人们服用这种药。
Thank God they’re not injecting it like Hitler did.
感谢上帝，他们没有像希特勒那样注射它。
They’d take a pill, so it’s not as dangerous as injecting.
他们会服用药物，因此不像注射那么危险。
But apparently the effect of this Eukodal, of this particular type of opioid, is so pleasant that it’s more attractive, maybe, than Dolantine.
但显然，这种特殊类型的阿片类药物 Eukodal 的效果是如此令人愉悦，以至于它可能比 Dolantine 更有吸引力。
Is it possible to try to reverse engineer the effect of Hitler’s drug use on the outcome of World War II?
是否有可能尝试逆向工程希特勒吸毒对第二次世界大战结果的影响？
2:16:19 So if he didn’t use any drugs, would the Nazis have been more successful or less successful?
那么，如果他不使用任何毒品，纳粹会更成功还是更不成功？
What do you think?
你怎么认为？
I think it would be speculative to answer, but I can try.
我认为回答是推测性的，但我可以尝试。
2:16:38 The war is so complex.
战争是如此复杂。
There are many different ways this war could have played out and ended, but I think it would always have ended with a German defeat.
这场战争可以有很多不同的方式进行和结束，但我认为它总是以德国的失败而结束。
I don’t think it would have ended with a German defeat.
我认为这不会以德国的失败而告终。
Well, if you don’t attack the Soviet Union, then of course you can win.
那么，如果你不进攻苏联，那你当然可以赢。
2:16:58 But as soon as you attack the Soviet Union…
但一旦攻击苏联……
As we talked about, I think the probability of success is low.
正如我们所说，我认为成功的可能性很低。
2:17:02 But, you know, I would put it like, I don’t know, 10%.
但是，你知道，我会说，我不知道，10%。
Again…
再次……
…Extremely speculative.
……极具推测性。
But if you do a blitzkrieg type of attack, very rapid, don’t split the forces in Operation Barbarossa, go straight for Moscow.
但如果你进行闪电战式的攻击，速度非常快，不要在巴巴罗萨行动中分散兵力，直接前往莫斯科。
Don’t invade Britain.
不要入侵英国。
Don’t declare war on the United States, and really focus on gaining oil from the Middle East.
不要向美国宣战，真正专注于从中东获取石油。
So maybe making the Africa campaign the central point in the very beginning, so that you have the resources that are essential for the industrial capacity of Germany that’s required to, you know, keep manufacturing and keep fueling the planes, the tanks, the mechanized aspect of the army.
因此，也许一开始就将非洲战役作为中心点，这样你就拥有了德国工业能力所必需的资源，你知道，这些资源是保持制造业、继续为飞机、坦克和军队机械化提供燃料所必需的。
So there are a lot of paths to this.
所以有很多途径可以实现这一点。
2:17:58 I mean, but I think it’s probably fair to say that a reasonable, thoughtful, calculated, disciplined leader would not have done any of the things Hitler did, even in the beginning.
我的意思是，但我认为可以公平地说，一个通情达理、深思熟虑、深思熟虑、纪律严明的领导人不会做希特勒所做的任何事情，即使在一开始也是如此。
I mean, it requires insanity, it requires hatred, it requires ideological self-capture where you tell yourself narratives that rapidly deviate from like ground truth, from first principles of things.
我的意思是，它需要疯狂，需要仇恨，需要意识形态的自我捕捉，你告诉自己的叙述很快就偏离了基本事实，偏离了事物的首要原则。
And you just, you’re an insane person.
而你，你就是个疯子。
You’re an insane dictator that’s drunk on power.
你是一个疯狂的独裁者，醉心于权力。
And it’s impossible for you to make great military decisions at that point.
那时你不可能做出重大的军事决策。
Yeah, you would need like an impossible Hitler that is as crazy as he was but still wouldn’t make any-
是的，你需要一个不可能的希特勒，他和他一样疯狂，但仍然不会做出任何事情——
Mistakes
错误
irrational mistakes.
非理性的错误。
2:18:44 So that doesn’t exist.
所以那是不存在的。
Hitler can only be imagined or understood in a way, as the drugs.
希特勒只能以某种方式被想象或理解，就像毒品一样。
Hitler without drugs is unthinkable for me.
没有毒品的希特勒对我来说是不可想象的。
It doesn’t, it makes, he was the drug guy.
事实并非如此，相反，他就是那个毒枭。
You cannot separate this.
你无法将这一点分开。
So Hitler was a self-destructive personality, and National Socialism is a self-destructive movement.
所以希特勒是一个自我毁灭的人格，而国家社会主义是一个自我毁灭的运动。
That’s why I said I think the Germans would have lost in any case, except if there was this perfect Hitler, which is theoretically impossible.
这就是为什么我说我认为德国人无论如何都会失败，除非有这个完美的希特勒，这在理论上是不可能的。
Theoretically possible in the 20th century.
理论上在20世纪是可能的。
2:19:22 I mean, you could think of a Genghis Khan or Alexander the Great type characters that would really internalize the sense of, in the case of Hitler, that the German people are, like, without the hatred, without the ideology, but with the murderous with the ability to dehumanize the rest of the world and see the German people as, uh—
我的意思是，你可以想到成吉思汗或亚历山大大帝类型的人物，他们会真正内化这样一种感觉，就希特勒而言，德国人民就像没有仇恨，没有意识形态，但有杀气，有能力使世界其他地方非人化，并将德国人民视为，呃——
Superior
高级
…
……
2:19:49 the superior and so it’s fair to do the Lebensraum and all of that kind of stuff.
上级，所以做“生存空间”之类的事情是公平的。
It’s hard to—it’s just the reason you want to think about that kind of stuff is Hitler got, to me at least, close to capturing a very large part of the world.
这很难——这就是你想要思考希特勒所拥有的那种东西的原因，至少对我来说，接近占领世界的很大一部分。
And it’s terrifying and sort of unbelievable that somebody could get close to that.
有人能接近它，这真是令人恐惧和难以置信。
I mean, what you described as this feeling of superiority and conquering countries, that was basically what the Wehrmacht, the high command, that’s what they were going for.
我的意思是，你所描述的这种优越感和征服国家的感觉，基本上就是国防军、最高统帅部所追求的。
2:20:26 And they wanted to eliminate Hitler in the Operation Valkyrie— not because they thought, “He’s an evil guy, he’s killing the Jews,” or, you know, they wanted to eliminate him because he was not this effective decision-maker anymore that they needed to win the war, or to end it in a different way.
他们想在瓦尔基里行动中消灭希特勒——不是因为他们认为，“他是一个邪恶的家伙，他正在屠杀犹太人”，或者，你知道，他们想消灭他，因为他不再是他们需要赢得战争或以不同方式结束战争的有效决策者。
And I spoke with Anthony Beevor once about the attempt of British intelligence to assassinate Hitler, and he had seen some evidence that at the point in time, they dropped those plans because they knew that drugged Hitler or malfunctioning Hitler, which he was after, you know, the summer of 1943, is better for Britain than, you know, killing Hitler and then having to deal with, like, some kind of, you know, maybe the army would have taken over the country, and that that would
我和安东尼·比弗谈过一次英国情报机构试图暗杀希特勒的事，他看到了一些证据，表明当时他们放弃了这些计划，因为他们知道，他在 1943 年夏天所追寻的被下药的希特勒或失灵的希特勒，对英国来说比杀死希特勒然后不得不处理某种，你知道的，也许军队会接管这个国家，这对英国来说更好。
2:21:23 have been more uncomfortable for Great Britain than having this- having the continuation of the degenerating maniac.
对于英国来说，比这更令人不安的是——堕落的疯子的延续。
What do we know about the very end, Hitler in the bunker?
对于希特勒在地堡中的最后结局，我们了解多少？
2:21:31 The moments, the days, the weeks, the months leading up to the suicide, all those kinds of things?
自杀前的那些时刻、几天、几周、几个月，所有这些事情？
It’s quite well-documented because people at the time were keeping diaries and writing about it, writing about their experiences.
它有很好的记录，因为当时的人们记日记并写下来，写下他们的经历。
2:21:45 Also, Morell wrote quite a bit what happened in the bunker.
此外，莫雷尔还写了很多在地堡里发生的事情。
One thing that changed was that Eukodal was not available anymore, so the drug that Hitler actually had become physically addicted to was suddenly not available anymore.
改变的一件事是 Eukodal 不再可用，因此希特勒实际上已经上瘾的药物突然不再可用。
This had to do with the bombardment of the Merck company, the factory in December 1944.
这与 1944 年 12 月对默克公司工厂的轰炸有关。
British bombers destroyed the production facilities.
英国轰炸机摧毁了生产设施。
And Morell, there’s a report of Morell, the overweight person, riding on a motorcycle through bombed-out Berlin from pharmacy to pharmacy, basically going into the pharmacies, trying to score Eukodal, and he couldn’t find it anymore.
还有莫雷尔，有一份报告称，超重的莫雷尔骑着摩托车穿过被炸毁的柏林，从一家药店到另一家药店，基本上是走进药店，试图为尤科达尔打分，但他再也找不到了。
2:22:43 It was nowhere to be found, and that’s when Hitler goes into withdrawal.
无处可寻，希特勒就开始撤退了。
What I find surprising is that he didn’t use another opioid because morphine was available all the way till the end, but he never kind of made that switch then.
让我感到惊讶的是，他没有使用另一种阿片类药物，因为吗啡一直到最后都可用，但他当时从未做出过这种改变。
He doesn’t…
他不……
Also, he didn’t realize for a long time that he becomes physically dependent on a drug, that he becomes a drug addict, but this realization happens in the last weeks in the bunker ’cause Goebbels, he understood it, and Goebbels wanted that bedroom, the second bedroom.
而且，他很长一段时间都没有意识到自己对药物产生了身体上的依赖，他成为了一名瘾君子，但这种认识发生在地堡的最后几周，因为戈培尔，他明白这一点，而戈培尔想要那间卧室，第二间卧室。
2:23:15 So he said to Hitler, “Do you understand what’s going on, that Morell turns you into a drug addict?” And Hitler, at one point, realized what Goebbels was saying is true because he felt the withdrawal, he was shaking, and he felt like shit, and Morell is, like, giving him weird stuff in the end.
于是他对希特勒说：“你明白发生了什么事吗？莫雷尔让你变成了吸毒者？”希特勒一度意识到戈培尔所说的是真的，因为他感到退缩，他在颤抖，他感觉很糟糕，而莫雷尔最后给了他奇怪的东西。
Like, one time he gives him harmine, which is an MAO inhibitor, which is part of ayahuasca, actually, because he still had that in his doctor’s bag.
比如，有一次他给了他去氢骆驼蓬碱，这是一种 MAO 抑制剂，实际上是死藤水的一部分，因为他的医生包里仍然有这种东西。
It hadn’t been used yet, so he gives him that, which also creates some kind of a weird high, but, you know, Hitler at one point realizes really what’s going on.
它还没有被使用，所以他给了他，这也创造了某种奇怪的快感，但是，你知道，希特勒在某一时刻意识到真正发生了什么。
2:23:59 This is late April, so very late in the game, and there are a few reports of what actually happens.
现在是四月下旬，所以比赛已经很晚了，有一些关于实际发生情况的报道。
Like some say that Morell has to kneel in front of him and that Hitler puts a gun on his head and says, “You’ve been making me addicted to opioids.
就像有人说莫雷尔必须跪在他面前，希特勒用枪指着他的头说：“你让我对阿片类药物上瘾。
Get the hell out of the bunker.” For sure he fires him that day, and then Morell’s described as being in tears, like, leaving the bunker, he gets one of the last planes out of Berlin.
从地堡里滚出去。”那天他肯定解雇了他，然后莫雷尔被描述为泪流满面，就像离开掩体时，他乘坐最后一架飞机离开柏林一样。
He has a research lab in the south of Bavaria close to the Berghof, and he makes one of the last or the last plane out of Berlin.
他在巴伐利亚南部靠近伯格霍夫的地方有一个研究实验室，他制造了最后一架或最后一架离开柏林的飞机。
He survives?
他活下来了？
Yeah.
是的。
2:24:35 And he goes to this research lab, and this is like May 2nd, 1945.
他去了这个研究实验室，时间是 1945 年 5 月 2 日。
He has like a little apartment in this research lab.
他在这个研究实验室里有一间小公寓。
His wife is still in Berlin.
他的妻子仍在柏林。
He’s like all alone, and he starts doing his taxes, and that kind of shows you that he was probably insane at that point, you know?
他就像一个人，他开始报税，这表明他当时可能疯了，你知道吗？
Just totally out of touch.
简直完全脱节了。
Why would you do your taxes?
你为什么要报税？
2:24:53 Maybe he was bored, you know, maybe he didn’t do his taxes for so long because he always had to treat Hitler, and then he thinks, “Now what am I going to do?
也许他很无聊，你知道，也许他这么长时间没有纳税，因为他总是要治疗希特勒，然后他想，“现在我该怎么办？
I’m just going to do my taxes now.” Very German thing to do.
我现在要去报税了。”非常德国的事情。
He’s just a strange character.
他只是一个奇怪的角色。
2:25:05 I mean, you tell this whole story, it’s—
我的意思是，你讲述整个故事，它是——
I would put that in the movie for sure, him doing his taxes and…
我肯定会把这一点放在电影里，他在报税，然后……
That’s how the movie ends.
电影就这样结束了。
Well, then the Americans move into Bavaria, liberate Bavaria from National Socialism, which was a great job they did there, and so I’m also thankful not only to the Red Army but also to the American forces.
好吧，然后美国人进入巴伐利亚，将巴伐利亚从国家社会主义中解放出来，他们在那里做了一项伟大的工作，所以我不仅感谢红军，也感谢美国军队。
2:25:14 Really, very thankful that they…
真的，非常感谢他们……
Because National Socialism was hard to beat.
因为国家社会主义很难被击败。
It was a beast, you know?
那是一头野兽，你知道吗？
It was hard to beat.
这是很难被击败的。
So they capture Morell and they interrogate him, and he actually lives for another two years in American custody in Germany in a military prison, and after these two years, his health’s really bad.
所以他们抓住了莫雷尔并审问了他，他实际上在美国在德国的军事监狱里又生活了两年，两年后，他的健康状况非常糟糕。
2:25:48 He has heart problems, and the Americans dump him in front of the Munich train station in a much too small uniform jacket, probably an American uniform, and he’s lying on the pavement in front of the train station, and a half-Jewish nurse that walks around there finds him, and she says, “I’m Theo Morell.” It’s really like in a movie.
他有心脏问题，美国人把他扔在慕尼黑火车站前，穿着一件太小的制服夹克，可能是美国制服，他躺在火车站前的人行道上，在那里走动的一位半犹太裔护士发现了他，她说，“我是西奥·莫雷尔。”真的就像电影里一样。
“I’m Theo Morell, I was the personal physician of the Fuhrer.” She’s like, this is 1947, Germany’s in ruins.
“我是西奥·莫雷尔，我是元首的私人医生。”她说，这是 1947 年，德国已是一片废墟。
And she brings him to a hospital.
她把他带到医院。
His wife comes from Berlin for the last time, they meet in a hospital at Tegernsee, a beautiful lake in Bavaria, and then he dies.
他的妻子最后一次从柏林过来，他们在巴伐利亚美丽的泰根湖的一家医院见面，然后他去世了。
So that was the end of Morell.
这就是莫雷尔的结局。
So we know pretty much what happens in the end.
所以我们非常清楚最终会发生什么。
Did somebody try to talk to Hitler about this?
有人试图与希特勒谈论此事吗？
2:26:33 Like, what about Eva Braun?
比如，爱娃·布劳恩呢？
Has anybody close to him tried to talk about this?
有没有与他关系密切的人试图谈论此事？
Well, Goebbels did.
好吧，戈培尔做到了。
Well, that at the very end.
嗯，那是在最后。
2:26:41 But you would imagine maybe the generals or friends or inner circle.
但你会想象也许是将军、朋友或核心圈子。
I mean, the reason I mentioned Eva is because, you know, people close to him.
我的意思是，我提到伊娃的原因是因为，你知道，与他关系密切的人。
There is a certain tension between Eva Braun and Morell.
爱娃·布劳恩和莫雷尔之间存在一定的紧张关系。
2:26:54 And I could very well imagine that she talked with Hitler about it, but there’s no record, so I don’t know exactly.
我很能想象她和希特勒谈过这件事，但没有记录，所以我不太清楚。
But they had a very intimate relationship.
但他们的关系非常亲密。
So Eva Braun was not just the dumb blonde that plays no role.
所以爱娃·布劳恩不仅仅是那个不扮演任何角色的愚蠢的金发女郎。
They actually spoke every day.
他们实际上每天都说话。
And when Hitler was in the military headquarters, he would phone her every night at 10:00 PM.
当希特勒在军事总部时，他每天晚上 10:00 都会给她打电话。
They would have a long phone conversation.
他们会进行长时间的电话交谈。
So they had a very deep relationship, and I’m pretty sure she didn’t really like Morell because, you know, for the obvious reasons.
所以他们的关系非常深厚，我很确定她并不真正喜欢莫雷尔，因为，你知道，出于显而易见的原因。
He was closer to Hitler than herself.
他比她自己更接近希特勒。
And, you know, if you count one plus one, it’s two, you know.
而且，你知道，如果你数一加一，那就是二。
So…
所以……
But she could have maybe not liked him because she might have cared for Hitler.
但她可能不喜欢他，因为她可能关心希特勒。
2:27:34 And you can see the effects of drugs on humans that you care for.
您可以看到药物对您所照顾的人的影响。
She also had a good relationship with him at times because he was often at the Berghof.
她有时也与他保持着良好的关系，因为他经常在伯格霍夫。
2:27:42 The Berghof was like, what is it called?
Berghof 就像，它叫什么名字？
Mar-a-Lago.
海湖庄园。
Oh, the Mar-a-Lago?
哦，海湖庄园？
2:27:52 Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, that’s kind of what it was.
是的，就是这样。
2:27:54 And it was actually, it became an official headquarter for Hitler, so he would actually make decisions from there.
事实上，它成为了希特勒的官方总部，所以他实际上会在那里做出决定。
It was not just a vacation place.
这不仅仅是一个度假胜地。
And Morell was often there, and Eva Braun was always there.
莫雷尔经常在那里，爱娃·布劳恩也总是在那里。
That was her place.
那是她的地方。
She was running that place.
她正在经营那个地方。
She was like the woman of that place.
她就像那个地方的女人。
And Hitler was often, of course, in the field in the headquarters, but he came as much as he could to the Berghof because it’s quite beautiful.
当然，希特勒经常在总部的现场，但他尽可能多地来到伯格霍夫，因为它非常漂亮。
I went up there.
我去了那里。
It’s quite interesting.
这很有趣。
And she also had a good relationship with Morell, and there’s a paper that I found where they were very intimate and very close.
而且她和莫雷尔的关系也很好，我发现有一篇论文说他们关系非常亲密，非常亲密。
There’s a paper of Morell where she comes to him in the morning and she has scratch marks.
有一份莫雷尔的报纸，上面写着她早上来找他，上面有划痕。
2:28:42 So apparently, they had violent sex.
很明显，他们发生了暴力性行为。
So Morell is also kind of a witness to that.
所以莫雷尔也是这一点的见证者。
That I found in Washington, D.C. in the National Archive.
我在华盛顿特区的国家档案馆中找到了它。
Wait, Hitler and Eva had violent sex?
等等，希特勒和伊娃有暴力性行为？
2:28:51 What do we know about Hitler’s sex life?
我们对希特勒的性生活了解多少？
It’s not known, right?
这还不知道，对吧？
I found it interesting that Morell describes these scratch marks.
我发现莫雷尔描述这些划痕很有趣。
2:28:57 I mean, it’s interesting.
我的意思是，这很有趣。
So they had some kind of kinky sex maybe.
所以他们可能有过某种变态的性行为。
Maybe they also had normal sex and sometimes it was kinky, or…
也许他们也有正常的性行为，有时却很古怪，或者……
Maybe Hitler was aggressive in bed, but it doesn’t really matter.
也许希特勒在床上很有攻击性，但这并不重要。
It’s just what happened between Eva and him.
这就是伊娃和他之间发生的事情。
Yeah, I don’t think that affected…
是的，我不认为这有影响……
2:29:16 …Military operations of the Wehrmacht.
……国防军的军事行动。
The drug use did.
药物的使用确实如此。
2:29:19 His sex…
他的性别……
If he would have had sex with a lot of people, maybe with his generals, then maybe, you know, it would be worth writing about it, because maybe he dominated these generals in bed or something.
如果他会和很多人发生性关系，也许是和他的将军们，那么也许，你知道，值得写下来，因为也许他在床上统治了这些将军们。
But he was just having sex with Eva, and I don’t think that’s historically relevant.
但他只是和伊娃发生性关系，我认为这与历史无关。
It might be interesting for the movie, but also, I don’t want to see Hitler having sex.
这对电影来说可能很有趣，但我也不想看到希特勒做爱。
I don’t think anyone wants to see Hitler having sex.
我认为没有人想看到希特勒做爱。
But Eva Braun is an interesting character because she had more of a say than historians for a long time attributed to her.
但爱娃·布劳恩是一个有趣的人物，因为她比历史学家长期以来认为的更有发言权。
2:29:45 Then a biography was written on her by a female German historian, and that’s a very good biography.
德国一位女历史学家为她写了一本传记，这是一本非常好的传记。
It really shows that she had, you know, quite a lot to say in this relationship.
这确实表明她在这段关系中有很多话要说。
She was not the dumb blonde that just…
她不是那个愚蠢的金发女郎，只是……
She was quite, you know, opinionated and active.
你知道，她非常固执己见，而且很活跃。
So, it’s…
所以，这是……
And she was filming him a lot.
她经常拍摄他。
Like, she was always filming in the Berghof.
就像，她总是在伯格霍夫拍摄。
You can go online and look at the Eva Braun clips, and you will see Hitler in color at the Berghof, how he’s, like, meeting children, petting their head.
你可以上网看爱娃·布劳恩的视频，你会在伯格霍夫看到彩色的希特勒，他就像是在和孩子们见面，抚摸他们的头。
And this is her contributing to the myth of this private, the good private man.
这就是她对这个私人的、善良的私人男人的神话的贡献。
2:30:30 So Eva Braun is an interesting character for sure.
所以爱娃·布劳恩无疑是一个有趣的角色。
But I found one note that she, in the beginning when Morell started with his drugs, said to Morell that she wants the same drugs, the same medications, not drugs, the same medications as Hitler so she would be on the same wavelength with him.
但我发现了一张纸条，当莫雷尔开始使用他的药物时，她对莫雷尔说，她想要相同的药物，相同的药物，而不是药物，与希特勒相同的药物，这样她就会与他处于同一波长。
She wanted to be…
她想成为……
She didn’t want to lose this world.
她不想失去这个世界。
But, I mean, Hitler became such a drug polytoxicomanic user that, of course, Eva couldn’t keep up with that.
但是，我的意思是，希特勒成为了一名多毒狂吸毒者，伊娃当然无法跟上。
They weren’t a drug couple.
他们不是吸毒情侣。
I didn’t see any evidence for that, that they would, like, take all the crazy drugs together and then have crazy sex or something like that.
我没有看到任何证据表明他们会把所有疯狂的药物放在一起，然后进行疯狂的性行为或类似的事情。
That’s not how it was.
事实并非如此。
So I think she was sympathetic to Morell in the beginning and then changed her opinion.
所以我认为她一开始是同情莫雷尔，然后改变了看法。
2:31:15 And I’m pretty sure she talked with Hitler about it, but there are no records about their private conversations.
我很确定她和希特勒谈过这件事，但没有关于他们私人谈话的记录。
Let’s talk about another perspective on this whole story that you document in your book, “The Bohemians: The Lovers Who Led Germany’s Resistance Against the Nazis.” So this is the story of the people who resisted from within Germany.
让我们谈谈您在《波西米亚人：领导德国抵抗纳粹的恋人》一书中记录的整个故事的另一个视角。这就是德国境内人民抵抗的故事。
Right.
正确的。
Can you tell their story?
你能讲讲他们的故事吗？
2:31:37 In particular, let’s talk through the story of the two key figures in the movement who…
特别是，让我们来谈谈运动中两位关键人物的故事……
…Happened to also be in love.
……碰巧也恋爱了。
Well, the main guy is Harro Schulze-Boysen.
嗯，主要人物是哈罗·舒尔茨-博伊森。
2:31:49 He caught my attention when I was doing research in an archive in Munich, researching drugs in the Luftwaffe, Goering’s Luftwaffe.
当我在慕尼黑的一个档案馆做研究、研究德国空军、戈林的德国空军的药物时，他引起了我的注意。
Goering being the more finist…
戈林更加出色……
I mean, the Luftwaffe was a very promiscuous drug place.
我的意思是，德国空军是一个非常混乱的毒品场所。
A lot of people in the Luftwaffe were high.
德国空军的很多人都很兴奋。
Oh, so more for entertainment versus the practical aspect of…
哦，更多的是为了娱乐而不是为了实用......
2:32:15 So it’s less about the meth optimizing human performance and more about just exploring?
所以这不是关于优化人类表现的方法，而是更多关于探索？
Like the number three of the Luftwaffe, Ernst Udet, he committed suicide in the fall of 1941.
与德国空军三号人物恩斯特·乌德特 (Ernst Udet) 一样，他于 1941 年秋天自杀。
2:32:26 And he had had seven Pervitin tablets for breakfast.
他早餐吃了七片 Pervitin 药片。
Okay.
好的。
So he was really high on meth.
所以他对冰毒真的很上瘾。
2:32:40 He really enjoyed it.
他真的很享受。
But he loved to take meth and then drink.
但他喜欢吸食冰毒，然后喝酒。
Alcohol was a big thing in the Luftwaffe.
酒精在德国空军中是一件大事。
You can drink a lot more when you’re on methamphetamine.
当您服用甲基苯丙胺时，您可以喝更多的酒。
And I found this letter, and that was really a coincidence while I was looking through the drug stuff.
我在翻查毒品的时候发现了这封信，这真是一个巧合。
I was searching for, you know, drugs, and I found this letter by Harro Schulze-Boysen, who had nothing to do with drugs, but still I found this letter.
我在寻找毒品，你知道，我发现了哈罗·舒尔茨-博伊森的这封信，他与毒品无关，但我仍然找到了这封信。
I don’t know why.
我不知道为什么。
I can’t remember how exactly it happened that I was suddenly reading this letter, and it was the last letter that he wrote in his life.
我不记得我是怎么突然读到这封信的，这是他一生中写的最后一封信。
2:33:14 He wrote it to his father, and he said that “Everything I have done, I’m totally fine with it, and I know it’s very hard for you, and I really am mostly sad for you and mother and my brother that you have to go through this.
他写信给他的父亲，他说：“我所做的一切，我完全同意，我知道这对你来说非常困难，我真的为你、母亲和我的兄弟感到难过，因为你必须经历这一切。
And I’m very sorry, but I’m fine with it, and I have a clean conscience.
我很抱歉，但我对此没有意见，而且我问心无愧。
I did what I could to stop this madness.” And I’m like, “What?
我尽我所能来阻止这种疯狂行为。”我想，“什么？
Who is this guy?” And I Googled him, and there were not so many hits on him, but I read a little bit, and he actually had formed, together with his wife, Libertas, which means freedom…
这家伙是谁？”我用谷歌搜索了他，关于他的点击量并不多，但我读了一点，他实际上和他的妻子一起组建了 Libertas，这意味着自由......
Good name.
好名字。
He had formed the largest resistance network against the Nazis that ever existed.
他组建了有史以来最大的反对纳粹的抵抗网络。
2:33:53 Over 100 people in Berlin that were all connected, and they were, they were from all flights of life.
柏林有超过 100 个人都相互联系，他们来自各行各业。
Like there were, some were artists, others were workers, some were leftists, others were patriots.
就像当时的人一样，有些是艺术家，有些是工人，有些是左翼分子，有些是爱国者。
Harro always believed that people could come to an agreement, like it’s possible to actually talk about things, and he was a, he was a true democrat, maybe you could say, or a true, I don’t know, libertarian.
哈罗始终相信人们可以达成协议，就像可以真正谈论事情一样，他是一个真正的民主主义者，也许你可以说，或者是一个真正的，我不知道，自由主义者。
Or, you know, he was a…
或者，你知道，他是一个……
He had to learn a hard lesson that, with Nazis, you cannot argue, because they are always right.
他必须吸取惨痛的教训：对于纳粹，你不能争论，因为他们总是对的。
It doesn’t work.
这不起作用。
At least it didn’t work during the Third Reich.
至少在第三帝国时期它不起作用。
Like, he could…
就像，他可以……
2:34:54 He had, he had published a newspaper during the Weimar Republic called “Gegner,” which means opponent.
他曾经,他在魏玛共和国时期出版过一份报纸,叫《格格纳》,就是对手的意思。
And in the “Gegner,” opponents could all write, like who would be on the street’s opponents, they could all write in “The Opponent.” And so it was a…
在《格格纳》中，对手都可以写，就像街上的对手是谁，他们都可以在《对手》中写。所以这是一个……
You read all kinds of texts and opinions, and he thought when Hitler took over power in ’33 that he could continue to publish “The Opponent,” because “The Opponent,” he thought even, you know, in a Nazi-led Germany, you know, this keeps the discourse.
你读了各种各样的文本和观点，他认为当希特勒在 33 年掌权时，他可以继续出版《对手》，因为《对手》，他认为即使在纳粹领导的德国，你知道，这也能保持话语权。
You have to have a discourse.
你必须有一个演讲。
We have to discuss.
我们必须讨论。
We have to disagree, you know.
你知道，我们必须不同意。
And then in April 1933, two months after Hitler took power, they had a meeting with the editorial staff.
然后在 1933 年 4 月，即希特勒上台两个月后，他们与编辑人员举行了一次会议。
2:35:38 They discussed the new issue, and then there was a knock on the door, and it was the SS, and they beat up everybody, and they destroyed the typewriters and the printing press that they had in the office in Berlin.
他们讨论了新一期，然后有人敲门，是党卫军，他们殴打了所有人，还毁坏了柏林办公室里的打字机和印刷机。
And they took Harro and his best friend, who was half Jewish, to one of these early concentration camps, and they tortured both of them, and the Jew was killed.
他们把哈罗和他最好的朋友（有一半犹太人血统）带到了这些早期集中营之一，他们折磨了他们俩，犹太人被杀了。
He didn’t make it.
他没有成功。
Henry Erlanger and Harro, at that moment he realized who he’s against, you know, that he has to…
亨利·厄兰格和哈罗，在那一刻他意识到他在反对谁，你知道，他必须……
He decided to become…
他决定成为……
to, to fight the system.
去，去对抗系统。
And the way he fought the system was later during the ’60s we also had a ’60s kind of cultural and political changes in Germany.
他对抗体制的方式是在 60 年代后期，德国也发生了 60 年代的文化和政治变革。
And then our ’60s they, they called it march through the institutions.
然后我们的 60 年代，他们称之为“穿过机构的游行”。
2:36:30 That is a way to infiltrate the system, like to become part of the system, and then, you know, change the system from within.
这是一种渗透系统的方式，就像成为系统的一部分，然后，你知道，从内部改变系统。
So you don’t leave the country, you stay, you go into the institutions.
所以你不会离开这个国家，你会留下来，你会进入机构。
You march through the institutions.
你游行穿过各个机构。
So Harro decided to go into the Luftwaffe, and he was working in the Air Force, Luftwaffe Ministry, a huge building still intact today in Berlin Wilhelmstrasse.
因此，哈罗决定进入德国空军，当时他在空军德国空军部工作，这是一座位于柏林威廉大街的巨大建筑，至今仍完好无损。
Quite an interesting building that was like the power center of the Luftwaffe or like one of the most important structures in the whole Nazi regime.
一座相当有趣的建筑，就像德国空军的权力中心，或者像整个纳粹政权中最重要的建筑之一。
And he was working there, and he worked his way up, and he received quite a lot of information.
他在那里工作，一步步晋升，收到了相当多的信息。
For example, when Germany, for the first time, became militarily active again.
例如，当德国首次再次变得军事活跃时。
2:37:19 This was in 1936, when the Germans supported the fascists in Spain in the Spanish Civil War.
那是1936年，西班牙内战中德国人支持西班牙法西斯分子。
This was a clandestine operation.
这是一次秘密行动。
The Luftwaffe did this.
德国空军就是这样做的。
And they, like German soldiers went to Spain like in plain clothes, like posing as vacationers.
而他们就像德国士兵一样穿着便衣前往西班牙，就像冒充度假者一样。
But then they, you know, were actually soldiers and supporting Franco’s…
但你知道，他们实际上是士兵并支持佛朗哥……
You know, were part of Franco’s victory later on.
你知道，这是佛朗哥后来胜利的一部分。
And Harro had this information, and he passed…
哈罗掌握了这些信息，然后他就通过了……
He tried to pass this on to the BBC.
他试图将此事转告给 BBC。
He failed passing it on.
他没能把它传递下去。
Well, he met a BBC journalist during the Olympic Games in Berlin, and told him about this, and the BBC guy was too afraid to make this public, and he kind of buried that information.
嗯，他在柏林奥运会期间遇到了一位 BBC 记者，并告诉了他这件事，而 BBC 记者太害怕了，不敢公开此事，他有点埋葬了这些信息。
2:38:04 So Harro is just a very interesting character, and he was in love with Libertas and Libertas with him.
所以哈罗只是一个非常有趣的角色，他爱上了自由人和他一起的自由。
Harro came from like a bourgeois family, very educated.
哈罗出身于资产阶级家庭，受过良好的教育。
His great-grand uncle was von Tirpitz, who built up the marine, the Navy for the Kaiser.
他的曾祖父是冯·提尔皮茨，他为德皇建立了海军陆战队。
So he came from this influential German family, but they were all patriots.
所以他出身于德国这个有影响力的家庭，但他们都是爱国者。
They were not Nazis.
他们不是纳粹分子。
They were democrats, patriots and militarists, I guess you could say, or like even, you know, very straight-laced also in a way.
我想你可以说，他们是民主党人、爱国者和军国主义者，或者甚至，你知道，在某种程度上也非常刻板。
And Libertas, she came from a castle north of Berlin.
还有 Libertas，她来自柏林北部的一座城堡。
She was this like Bohemian, like aristocratic Bohemian type.
她就是这样的波西米亚人，像贵族的波西米亚类型。
She’s very good-looking, always playing music.
她非常漂亮，总是演奏音乐。
And they fell in love.
他们相爱了。
They met on the Wannsee on boats.
他们在万湖船上相遇。
They were both on a…
他们都在…
2:38:53 Harro was rowing, and she was on a sailboat of a guy that Harro also knew.
哈罗正在划船，而她所在的帆船是哈罗也认识的一个人的。
So he was rowing, and he saw his friend on the sailboat, and he looked at Libertas, she looked at him, and they were in love in 1934.
于是他在划船，他看到了他的朋友在帆船上，他看着自由女神，她看着他，他们在 1934 年相爱了。
And the other guy, the friend of Harro, he left his sailboat, because he realized, “I’m like the fifth wheel on the car, not really needed,” right?
另一个人，哈罗的朋友，他离开了他的帆船，因为他意识到，“我就像汽车上的第五轮，并不是真正需要的，”对吗？
Like, how do you say that in sailboat terms?
就像，用帆船术语怎么说？
I don’t know, the third sail is not needed.
我不知道，第三张帆是否需要。
2:39:21 You know, but what happened at night, Harro didn’t sleep with Libertas.
你知道，但是晚上发生的事情，哈罗没有和利伯塔斯一起睡。
For her, that was very unusual because everyone wanted to sleep with her, but Harro, he wanted to keep his clothes on, and it was a very warm night, and I researched this quite thoroughly.
对她来说，这很不寻常，因为每个人都想和她一起睡觉，但哈罗，他想穿衣服，那是一个非常温暖的夜晚，我对此进行了相当彻底的研究。
I know exactly the temperature, and so also The Bohemians, when you read The Bohemians, you really experience the life of these people, what they experienced, but everything is nothing is invented, which is very tricky to do.
我清楚地知道温度，《波西米亚人》也是如此，当你读《波西米亚人》时，你真正体验到这些人的生活，他们经历过什么，但一切都不是虚构的，这是非常棘手的。
So what happens that night, Libertas wants to take off his clothes and he doesn’t want to take them off, because why?
那么那天晚上发生了什么，利伯塔斯想要脱掉他的衣服，但他不想脱掉它们，因为为什么呢？
From the torture in April 1933, he has quite a lot of scars.
1933年4月遭受酷刑后，他身上伤痕累累。
They even burned swastikas into his thighs.
他们甚至在他的大腿上烧了纳粹标志。
Not burned, sorry, they…
没有被烧伤，抱歉，他们……
With knives.
带刀。
2:40:11 The SS.
党卫军。
So he doesn’t want to show that to her.
所以他不想向她展示这一点。
He just, and he hadn’t had a girlfriend for a while.
他只是，而且他已经有一段时间没有女朋友了。
He can’t open up emotionally because he’s fighting the Nazis.
他无法敞开心扉，因为他正在与纳粹作战。
It’s very secret.
这是非常秘密的。
No one knows about this, that he’s long-term planning his life to fight the system that he hates so much because they killed his best friend in front of his eyes.
没有人知道这一点，他正在长期规划自己的人生，以对抗他如此憎恨的体制，因为他们在他眼前杀死了他最好的朋友。
But at one point, Libertas does take off his clothes and she sees this, and she’s naive.
但有一次，利伯塔斯确实脱掉了他的衣服，她看到了这一点，她很天真。
She’s even a member of the Nazi party, but she’s not a very active party member.
她甚至是纳粹党的成员，但她不是一个非常活跃的党员。
She just, you know, she works for MGM actually in Berlin, a Hollywood film studio office in Berlin.
她只是，你知道，她实际上在柏林的米高梅工作，这是一家位于柏林的好莱坞电影制片厂办事处。
Germany was one of the biggest movie markets, and she was the press girl.
德国是最大的电影市场之一，而她就是新闻女郎。
She did the campaigns for the big Hollywood movies in Germany.
她为德国的好莱坞大片做过宣传活动。
So just a regular German girl?
所以只是一个普通的德国女孩？
Well, she wasn’t regular.
好吧，她不正常。
2:40:59 She was from a very high family.
她出身于一个非常显赫的家庭。
Actually, her grandfather had been in a relationship with the German emperor, which is a side story that I found out when I researched The Bohemians.
事实上，她的祖父曾与德国皇帝有过一段关系，这是我在研究波西米亚人时发现的一个旁白。
The German emperor apparently was bisexual and was going to that castle, and they had homosexual meetings there with Libertas’ grandfather.
德国皇帝显然是双性恋，并且要去那座城堡，他们在那里与利伯塔斯的祖父进行了同性恋会面。
So she came from a very…
所以她来自一个非常……
…Unusual family.
……不寻常的家庭。
Yeah.
是的。
2:41:28 But what I mean in a usual German girl, what I mean by that is it’s not obvious that a person like that would hold a crucial role in the resistance against the Nazis.
但我的意思是，对于一个普通的德国女孩来说，我的意思是，这样的人在抵抗纳粹中发挥关键作用并不明显。
No, not at all.
不，一点也不。
2:41:42 That was always a problem because for her, it was weird that someone was against the system.
这一直是一个问题，因为对她来说，有人反对这个系统很奇怪。
But Harro told me…
但哈罗告诉我……
Harro was totally convinced that fascism is wrong and that he has to fight it, and more and more Libertas was convinced, and then more friends came into the group.
哈罗完全相信法西斯主义是错误的，他必须与之斗争，越来越多的自由党人被说服了，然后更多的朋友加入了这个团体。
And the way Harro organized this resistance group was through parties.
哈罗组织这个抵抗组织的方式是通过政党。
They were a power couple of Berlin, and they had a great loft apartment.
他们是柏林的一对有权势的夫妇，他们有一套很棒的阁楼公寓。
2:42:12 They moved together to a loft apartment on also a side street from Ku’damm, a huge room, and there they had parties every second Thursday night and they would invite friends, and then once they trusted someone personally, they would spill the beans and say, “This is actually not just a party.” But they would test it.
他们一起搬到了库达姆一条小街上的一间阁楼公寓，一个很大的房间，在那里他们每隔两个星期四晚上就会举办聚会，他们会邀请朋友，然后一旦他们私下信任某人，他们就会泄露秘密并说：“这实际上不仅仅是一个聚会。”但他们会测试它。
At the party, they would say something critical of the regime and you immediately, you know, either the person jumps on it, responds, or, you know, goes somewhere else, gets a drink at the bar, not into it.
在聚会上，他们会说一些批评政权的话，你知道，这个人要么跳上台，做出回应，要么，你知道，去其他地方，在酒吧喝一杯，而不是喝下去。
2:42:48 So that was the way of recruiting people, and that was such an efficient way that the Gestapo was not able to understand this group for a long time, not even recognize that there is a group, because Gestapo was very good at infiltrating, for example, communist resistance groups, because you just had to go in as a Gestapo guy and be a communist.
这就是招募人员的方式，这种方式非常有效，以至于盖世太保很长一段时间都无法了解这个组织，甚至不知道有一个组织，因为盖世太保非常擅长渗透，例如共产主义抵抗组织，因为你只要以盖世太保的身份进去，然后成为一名共产主义者。
Just say the right words and they would, at one point, you know, take you.
只要说出正确的话，他们就会在某一时刻，你知道，带走你。
But with Harro and Libertas, it wasn’t so easy.
但对于哈罗和自由人来说，事情就没那么容易了。
They would sniff you out, you know?
他们会嗅出你的气味，你知道吗？
These parties were what, like, intellectuals, artists and that kind of stuff?
这些政党都是知识分子、艺术家之类的？
Yeah.
是的。
2:43:26 They had music.
他们有音乐。
They would dance.
他们会跳舞。
They would sleep with each other.
他们会睡在一起。
They also…
他们还……
Oh, sex stuff too.
哦，还有性的东西。
Well, they had, and this is again a parallel to the ’60s, they had the idea that if you’re against fascism, if you’re for freedom of everything…
嗯，他们有，这又与 60 年代相似，他们的想法是，如果你反对法西斯主义，如果你支持一切自由……
Yeah, free love, the whole thing.
是的，自由恋爱，一切。
…Yeah, they had free love, but it wasn’t a dogma.
……是的，他们有自由恋爱，但这不是教条。
2:43:46 There was also a female doctor there, she was quite square, I guess you would say, and she was against this.
那里还有一个女医生，我猜你会说她很方正，她反对这个。
She said, “This is too complicated.
她说：“这太复杂了。
We are a resistance group.
我们是一个抵抗组织。
What if there’s jealousy and what if this could compromise operations?” And it did sometimes.
如果存在嫉妒，或者这会影响运营怎么办？”有时确实如此。
So that’s why The Bohemians are a very interesting subject because sometimes it just doesn’t work.
这就是为什么波西米亚人是一个非常有趣的主题，因为有时它不起作用。
In a way, it works that love really bonds them together.
在某种程度上，爱情确实将他们联系在一起。
2:44:15 But also, especially Libertas and Harro, they have a terrible marriage sometimes.
但同时，尤其是利伯塔斯和哈罗，他们的婚姻有时也很糟糕。
They really fight because Libertas is not so much intellectually convinced.
他们真正打架是因为自由党在理智上不太相信。
She’s more a resistance fighter from the heart, she feels that the Nazis are not good.
她更多的是一个发自内心的抵抗战士，她觉得纳粹不好。
But Harro is more like the analytical guy.
但哈罗更像是一个善于分析的人。
So they have a lot of friction also, and it’s a fascinating story, and they came quite far.
所以他们也有很多摩擦，这是一个引人入胜的故事，他们走了很远。
I mean, they made…
我的意思是，他们做了……
There was a point in time when Harro had militarily relevant information through his position at the Luftwaffe ministry, and he passed that on to allies, to Western allies and to the Soviet Union.
曾经有一段时间，哈罗通过他在德国空军部的职位获得了军事相关信息，并将其传递给盟友、西方盟友和苏联。
So he went a step further than just being a resistance group.
所以他比仅仅成为一个抵抗组织更进一步。
He became, you could say, a traitor.
可以说，他成了一个叛徒。
He would give information to the Soviets.
他将向苏联提供信息。
Yeah, he would, because he said-
是的，他会的，因为他说——
As part of the resistance.
作为抵抗的一部分。
Yeah, they can beat Germany.
是的，他们可以击败德国。
2:45:08 But that was also discussed in the groups.
但这也在小组中进行了讨论。
Very interesting to see some say, “We can’t do this because the Soviet Union is also a totalitarian regime.” But then Harro says, “Yeah, but they are going to beat Hitler.” So The Bohemians is a very interesting topic.
很有趣的是看到有人说，“我们不能这样做，因为苏联也是一个极权政权。”但哈罗随后说道：“是的，但他们会打败希特勒。”所以波西米亚人是一个非常有趣的话题。
What lessons do you learn from these folks, maybe about why so few resisted Hitler while in Germany?
您从这些人身上学到了什么教训，也许是关于为什么在德国时很少有人抵抗希特勒？
I mean, it was extremely dangerous.
我的意思是，这非常危险。
Is it purely the danger?
这纯粹是危险吗？
2:45:40 Is it also people believed it’s hard to be an independent thinker and take yourself outside the propaganda?
是不是人们也认为很难成为一个独立的思想家并让自己脱离宣传？
Because they’re also swimming in propaganda.
因为他们也在宣传中游泳。
I mean, the chances of succeeding are quite small because the system was extremely strong.
我的意思是，成功的机会很小，因为系统非常强大。
2:45:55 And if you made a joke about Hitler and the wrong person heard it in a restaurant and would rat on you, you would land in a concentration camp.
如果你开了一个关于希特勒的玩笑，而错误的人在餐馆里听到了这个笑话并出卖了你，你就会被关进集中营。
So, people were very, very careful.
所以，人们非常非常小心。
Also, at parties, when Libertas was singing and they were drinking and dancing, and then suddenly the political discussion started, you know you have to have guts to then actually not leave the party but to stay, because they were risking their lives basically.
另外，在聚会上，当自由党唱歌、喝酒、跳舞时，然后突然开始政治讨论，你知道你必须有勇气实际上不离开聚会而是留下来，因为他们基本上是在冒着生命危险。
As soon as they would be found out, they would be dead.
一旦被发现，他们就死定了。
And people don’t want to die when they’re in their mid-20s.
人们不想在 20 多岁的时候就死去。
They were all pretty young.
他们都很年轻。
2:46:37 And Libertas, she would often say, “We can’t win.
至于自由党，她经常说：“我们赢不了。
Why are we risking our lives for what?” So, one time they did a Gelbe Sättel Aktion, Gelbe Sättel.
为什么我们要冒着生命危险去做什么？”因此，有一次他们做了一次 Gelbe Sättel 行动，Gelbe Sättel。
They produced…
他们生产了……
because one guy had access to a printing press, and they produced leaflets, small papers that had glue on one side, and the paper said, um…
因为一个人可以使用印刷机，他们制作传单，一面有胶水的小纸，纸上写着，嗯......
What the Nazis did, they set up a huge exhibition hall which was called the Soviet Paradise, and this exhibition was always in the center of Berlin.
纳粹的做法是，他们建立了一个巨大的展览馆，被称为苏联天堂，而且这个展览总是在柏林市中心。
I’d never heard about this before.
我以前从未听说过这个。
I found this when I researched The Bohemians, and it was the most popular exhibition during the whole of the war.
我在研究《波西米亚人》时发现了这个，它是整个战争期间最受欢迎的展览。
Two million people, two million Germans saw this.
两百万人，两百万德国人看到了这一点。
2:47:29 They went into this exhibition, and they saw how horrible the Soviet Union is, h- how horrible communism is to people.
他们走进这个展览，他们看到苏联是多么可怕，共产主义对人们来说是多么可怕。
So, it was a propaganda show.
所以，这是一场宣传秀。
2:47:39 And the group decided to make these leaflets which didn’t say “The Soviet Paradise,” but it said “The Nazi Paradise”: torture, SS torture, hunger, war, how long will it last?
该组织决定制作这些传单，上面没有写“苏联天堂”，而是写着“纳粹天堂”：酷刑、党卫军酷刑、饥饿、战争，会持续多久？
And they glued over a thousand of these stickers everywhere in Berlin in May 1942 at night.
1942 年 5 月的晚上，他们在柏林各处粘贴了一千多张这样的贴纸。
They organized it in a way that always two people, a man and a woman, would go out.
他们组织的方式是总是有两个人，一男一女，出去。
They had the stickers with them, and then they would pretend to kiss and would lean on a wall.
他们随身带着贴纸，然后他们会假装接吻并靠在墙上。
And then while they were kissing, one would put the sticker on.
然后当他们接吻的时候，有人会贴上贴纸。
Then they would move on in the dark.
然后他们就会在黑暗中继续前行。
So, in the morning of that May 1942, tens of thousands of Berliners saw that the city saw these things.
因此，在 1942 年 5 月的早晨，数以万计的柏林人看到这座城市看到了这些事情。
Does it make a difference?
有什么区别吗？
It made one on that day, you know?
那天就做了一个，你知道吗？
2:48:35 It was a very dangerous thing to do, and no one was, no one got caught.
这是一件非常危险的事情，但没有人被抓住，没有人被抓住。
And in the morning, a lot of people saw that there is actually resistance, that there are people who do something against it.
早上，很多人看到实际上存在阻力，有人做一些反对它的事情。
So, I think they did something.
所以，我认为他们做了一些事情。
Yeah, I was reading about protests in recent human history, and most of them, many of them, don’t have an effect until they do.
是的，我读到了有关近代人类历史上的抗议活动的内容，其中大多数，很多，只有在发生之前才会产生影响。
2:48:48 It’s like this threshold effect.
就像阈值效应一样。
It’s very hard to know.
这很难知道。
It’s very hard to know because it’s a match that lights a fire.
这很难知道，因为这是一根点燃火的火柴。
And sometimes the spark takes a little bit of time to propagate through the whispers.
有时，火花需要一点时间才能通过耳语传播。
What happens is the people whispering, it’s the whisper network of people talking, and sometimes it just takes that one sticker to begin the whispers, and then a few months later, the regime is overthrown.
发生的事情是人们在窃窃私语，这是人们在窃窃私语的窃窃私语网络，有时只需要一张贴纸就可以开始窃窃私语，然后几个月后，政权就被推翻了。
It’s funny.
这很有趣。
It’s hard to trace back what was effective and what was not.
很难追溯什么是有效的，什么是无效的。
I mean, Harro was convinced that the system would lose, so he thought that maybe we can make a contribution that makes it go faster.
我的意思是，哈罗确信系统会失败，所以他认为也许我们可以做出贡献，让它运行得更快。
2:49:35 Maybe we will be that spark.
也许我们会成为那个火花。
When I think that there’s this possibility, I must try it.
当我想到有这个可能的时候，我一定要尝试一下。
That was his conviction.
这是他的信念。
So, he would put his life on the line for that possibility.
所以，为了这个可能性，他愿意赌上自己的性命。
How did they get caught?
他们是怎么被抓到的？
They were approached by the Soviet Union, who wanted to recruit them as spies.
苏联与他们接触，想招募他们作为间谍。
2:50:06 And they didn’t want to do that.
他们不想这样做。
Harro refused the Soviet intelligence.
哈罗拒绝了苏联的情报。
These are documents that were found in the early ’90s.
这些文件是在 90 年代初发现的。
One of the sons of one of the members of that group, a good friend of Harro’s, one of his sons went to Moscow to look at the files, and he found a kind of furious Soviet KGB description of this weird guy, Harro, that doesn’t want to be a proper Soviet spy and just says, “Yes, I’m going to give you information so you can hurt Hitler, but I’m not going to play your game.
该组织成员之一的儿子，哈罗的好朋友，他的一个儿子去莫斯科查看文件，他发现了苏联克格勃对这个怪人哈罗的一种愤怒的描述，哈罗不想成为一名真正的苏联间谍，只是说：“是的，我要给你信息，这样你就可以伤害希特勒，但我不会玩你的游戏。
I’m not going to be one of you.” So still, they did collaborate with the Soviet Union.
我不会成为你们中的一员。”尽管如此，他们确实与苏联合作。
They accepted a radio transmitter from the Soviet Union, with which they were supposed to send military information via radio to Moscow.
他们接受了来自苏联的无线电发射机，他们应该用它通过无线电向莫斯科发送军事信息。
2:51:03 And they struggled with the technology.
他们在技术上遇到了困难。
The Russians gave them an apparatus only with Russian instructions, and it’s very difficult.
俄罗斯人给了他们一个只有俄罗斯指令的设备，这非常困难。
They made mistakes.
他们犯了错误。
But what actually gets them caught is the Russians at one point answered and sent a message to them through the ether.
但真正让他们被捕的是俄罗斯人在某一时刻做出了回应，并通过以太网向他们发送了一条消息。
And that message is coded, but the Nazis intercepted that message and were able to decode it.
该消息是经过编码的，但纳粹截获了该消息并能够对其进行解码。
And in the message, it gives the clear names of Harro and his address, which is a total intelligence blunder.
消息中明确给出了哈罗的名字和地址，这完全是情报错误。
Or maybe they just wanted to give them up, and had their revenge because Stalin did crazy stuff like that, you know?
或者也许他们只是想放弃，并进行报复，因为斯大林做了类似的疯狂事情，你知道吗？
2:51:51 So they suddenly knew, the Gestapo knew Harro Schulze-Boysen, the high-ranking officer in the Luftwaffe ministry, was giving military information to the Soviet Union, and apparently, he was meeting with all kinds of friends.
所以他们突然知道，盖世太保知道德国空军部的高级军官哈罗·舒尔茨-博伊森正在向苏联提供军事情报，而且显然，他正在会见各种各样的朋友。
So the Gestapo started observing the group for months.
因此盖世太保开始对该组织进行为期数月的观察。
And the group at one point realized that they had been basically found out, but then it was already too late.
该小组一度意识到他们基本上已经被发现，但已经太晚了。
Then they captured quite a few of them, and quite a few got a military trial and received the death penalty, and were also being executed.
然后他们就抓了好几个，还有好几个受了军事审判，被判了死刑，也被处决了。
And Harro and Libertas were among them.
哈罗和利伯塔斯也在其中。
And also, that last chapter of their lives is very well-documented, and it actually ends with that letter, you know, that I found in the beginning.
而且，他们生命的最后一章有很好的记录，它实际上以我在开头发现的那封信结束。
That’s the last thing that Harro does, is write that letter.
这是哈罗做的最后一件事，就是写那封信。
To his father.
给他的父亲。
That’s very interesting what happens with Libertas because she gets in custody.
Libertas 身上发生的事情非常有趣，因为她被拘留了。
2:52:45 The Gestapo asks one of their secretaries, Gertrude Breiter, to go in and pose as a friend to Libertas.
盖世太保要求他们的一位秘书格特鲁德·布莱特进去并假扮成自由党的朋友。
And Libertas actually falls for it and starts telling that secretary, who pretends to be her friend and kind of helps her with certain things, tells her secrets, and that kind of breaks the neck of the group.
利伯塔斯实际上上当了，并开始告诉那位假装是她的朋友并在某些事情上帮助她的秘书，告诉她的秘密，这有点打破了团队的界限。
It’s a very tragic ending.
这是一个非常悲惨的结局。
So while my books always contain as much humor as possible, that is not a funny story, but it’s a very dramatic story.
因此，虽然我的书总是包含尽可能多的幽默，但这不是一个有趣的故事，而是一个非常戏剧性的故事。
Even though they had a lot of humor, obviously.
显然，尽管他们有很多幽默感。
I mean, they had parties to recruit people.
我的意思是，他们举办聚会来招募人员。
What lessons can we learn from that about how to resist totalitarian regimes?
关于如何抵制极权政权，我们可以从中吸取什么教训？
2:53:31 Is there some deeper wisdom?
还有更深层次的智慧吗？
I just think it’s admirable to be brave and not do things that you cannot really justify in front of your own conscience.
我只是觉得勇敢而不做那些在自己的良心面前无法证明合理的事情是令人钦佩的。
2:53:44 I don’t know if I would have been so brave.
我不知道我是否会如此勇敢。
I don’t even know, obviously, how my conscience would have been, but I’m probably more the fleeing type.
显然，我什至不知道我的良心会如何，但我可能更属于逃跑型。
Like, a lot of writers would just leave Germany.
就像，很多作家会离开德国。
Like Thomas Mann just left Germany and lived in Pacific Palisades.
就像托马斯·曼刚刚离开德国，住在太平洋帕利塞兹。
And then, and then maybe write, criticize, but leave first.
然后，也许可以写信、批评，但先离开。
And he criticized it from the outside, and he was quite influential.
而且他是从外面批评的，影响力也挺大的。
2:54:16 He worked for the BBC.
他为英国广播公司工作。
They did shows against the Nazis.
他们表演了反对纳粹的节目。
So you could maybe do more when you leave.
所以当你离开时你也许可以做更多的事情。
It’s just you have…
只是你有……
Like today, let’s say we see something.
就像今天一样，假设我们看到了一些东西。
We live in a system that suddenly changes, and we’re not happy with it anymore.
我们生活在一个突然变化的系统中，我们不再对此感到满意。
Do we just go along and, you know, continue to stare at our smartphone, or do we do something against it?
我们是继续盯着我们的智能手机，还是采取一些措施来反对它？
What do we do?
我们该怎么办？
I mean, every situation has very different conditions.
我的意思是，每种情况都有非常不同的条件。
It’s…
这是……
I think it’s probably even harder now to be in the resistance than it was back then.
我认为现在加入抵抗运动可能比那时更困难。
But I think it does, at the end of the day, boil down to facing yourself, looking yourself in the mirror-
但我认为，归根结底，还是要面对自己，照镜子——
Right.
对。
that you’re facing your conscience and then doing the courageous thing.
你要面对自己的良心，然后做出勇敢的事情。
2:55:03 And I think that in itself, like…
我认为这本身就像......
it’s the tree falling in the forest, even if there’s nobody there to hear it.
这是森林里的树倒下的声音，即使那里没有人听到。
Just the fact that that exists, somehow through the karma channels of the world…
事实上，它确实存在，以某种方式通过世界的业力通道……
…Can materialize into progress, into a revolution against oppression.
......可以实现进步，实现反对压迫的革命。
Something about that human spirit still shining through can start a revolution.
人类精神中仍然闪耀的某些东西可以引发一场革命。
I mean, it is that spirit that actually made us human.
我的意思是，正是这种精神真正使我们成为人类。
2:55:40 It is that neuroplasticity in our brain that we do not just repeat the conditioned sets that we ought to repeat.
正是我们大脑中的神经可塑性使我们不只是重复我们应该重复的条件组。
But that we actually dim down the command center in the brain and let other parts of the brain react, which is the psychedelic experience, basically.
但我们实际上调暗了大脑的指挥中心，让大脑的其他部分做出反应，这基本上就是迷幻的体验。
That, I think, contributes to the evolution of our species.
我认为这有助于我们物种的进化。
And our species is certainly threatened by extinction.
我们的物种肯定面临灭绝的威胁。
So I think if we somehow care for the human race then resistance becomes a very immediate and important topic, you know.
所以我认为，如果我们以某种方式关心人类，那么抵抗就会成为一个非常直接和重要的话题，你知道。
Because you can resist, obviously.
显然，因为你可以抵抗。
Your brain is yours.
你的大脑是你的。
You can resist in many ways, you know, by thinking, just by thinking.
你可以用很多方式来抵抗，你知道，通过思考，只是通过思考。
That’s actually why I became a writer when I was a teenager.
这实际上就是我十几岁时成为一名作家的原因。
I was very political.
我非常政治化。
2:56:56 I wanted to change the system.
我想改变系统。
I thought, “This is not good, what’s happening.” This was in the Cold War.
我想：“这不太好，发生了什么事。”这是在冷战时期。
Very…
非常…
I don’t know if conservative is even the right word, but you know, Ronald Reagan was president.
我不知道保守这个词是否正确，但你知道，罗纳德·里根是总统。
So I thought my writing could change the brain waves of the readers, basically, and therefore have a neuroplastic effect on the reader.
所以我认为我的写作基本上可以改变读者的脑电波，从而对读者产生神经可塑性作用。
And just because that is what literature is.
仅仅因为这就是文学。
Literature, and I started off as a novelist, and that’s really literature.
文学，我一开始是一名小说家，那才是真正的文学。
It’s about what do you see right now?
这是关于你现在看到什么？
How do you describe it?
你如何描述它？
So you do it in ways that when you read it, when you read a good book, you feel good because suddenly you see different things, your brain changes.
所以你这样做的方式是，当你读一本好书时，你会感觉很好，因为突然你看到了不同的东西，你的大脑发生了变化。
You become more free, I think, if you read good literature.
我想，如果你阅读优秀的文学作品，你就会变得更加自由。
2:57:45 That was always my form of- of resistance.
这一直是我的抵抗形式。
Communist resistance cells would probably say this is nothing, you know, but I think it is resistance.
共产主义抵抗组织可能会说这没什么，你知道，但我认为这就是抵抗。
And that’s a little bit…
这有点……
I- I think it resembles a little bit what this group did.
我-我认为这有点像这个团体所做的事情。
Just living differently, not living, you know…
只是以不同的方式生活，而不是生活，你知道......
That’s why I said in the beginning, Nazis were bad dancers, because…
这就是为什么我一开始就说纳粹是糟糕的舞者，因为……
I think they were good dancers at the parties, you know, and they were like…
我认为他们在聚会上是出色的舞者，你知道，他们就像……
I think dancing can be a form of resistance.
我认为跳舞可以是一种抵抗形式。
Yeah, but I also like the scale when you resist and through that resistance you have impact at scale, and I do think writing is that.
是的，但我也喜欢你抵抗时的规模，通过这种抵抗，你会产生一定程度的影响，我确实认为写作就是这样。
2:58:19 So if you can en- encapsate your, sort of the spirit of that resistance into writing, that’s- that’s beautiful.
因此，如果你能将你的那种抵抗精神浓缩到写作中，那就太美了。
And some of the greatest literature does exactly that.
一些最伟大的文学作品正是这样做的。
Right.
正确的。
2:58:39 That is the aim of my next book.
这就是我下一本书的目标。
So is it still called Stone Sapiens?
那么它还叫石智人吗？
Yeah, it’s called Stoned Sapiens.
是的，它的名字叫“石头智人”。
Great title, great title.
好标题，好标题。
2:58:46 So what is this lens that you’re looking at all of human history through?
那么你看待整个人类历史的这个镜头是什么呢？
I discussed this with the already mentioned Antony Beevor, who is like the master in historical non-fiction books, and said, “Is it also possible to write a world history?” Like, about everything, basically.
我和已经提到的安东尼·比弗（Antony Beevor）讨论过这个问题，他就像历史非小说类书籍的大师一样，说：“是否也可以写一部世界历史？”基本上，关于一切。
2:58:54 And he said, “Yes, it is possible.” It’s not easy, because you have to understand a lot, you know?
他说：“是的，这是可能的。”这并不容易，因为你必须了解很多，你知道吗？
And obviously, it will always be a selection.
显然，这永远是一个选择。
It’s clear, you know.
很清楚，你知道。
That’s why I also think that historical science is basically a fictional science.
这就是为什么我也认为历史科学基本上是一种虚构的科学。
I mean, I have a foreword, the Blitz foreword basically tells that story.
我的意思是，我有一个前言，闪电战的前言基本上讲述了这个故事。
Take it with a grain of salt.
带着一粒盐服用。
Not only Blitz, but every historical book, because we weren’t there, you know?
不仅是闪电战，还有每一本历史书，因为我们不在那儿，你知道吗？
That’s what Johnny Depp said when the guy said, “So you had like a megapint of red wine.” He just said, “Were you there?”
当约翰尼·德普（Johnny Depp）说“所以你喝了一大杯红酒”时，他就是这么说的。他只是说：“你在吗？”
2:59:42 You know, and the guy wasn’t there.
你知道，那个人并不在那里。
So, history, historical sciences, is a fiction.
所以，历史、历史科学都是虚构的。
But, you know, it’s a certain type of fiction, and it’s based on facts.
但是，你知道，这是某种类型的小说，而且是基于事实的。
So I’m not inventing anything in Stoned Sapiens, and I’m highly interested in the very early human history, and there are not a lot of sources.
所以我并没有在《Stoned Sapiens》中发明任何东西，我对人类的早期历史非常感兴趣，而且资料来源并不多。
So the beginning of the book is more speculative than, for example, the Vietnam War chapter.
因此，本书的开头比越南战争一章更具推测性。
In the Vietnam War chapter, I’m in Hanoi speaking to Viet Cong generals, asking them did they supply heroin to the GIs, which diminished their fighting capability.
在越南战争章节中，我在河内与越共将军交谈，询问他们是否向美国大兵提供海洛因，这削弱了他们的战斗能力。
You can research that, and that’s also a chapter.
你可以研究一下，那也是一章。
By the way, the Vietnam War is not called the Vietnam War in Vietnam.
顺便说一下，越南战争在越南不叫越南战争。
It’s called the American War.
这就是所谓的美国战争。
3:00:36 And also, I was sitting with these Viet Cong generals in Hanoi just a few weeks ago for researching for Stoned Sapiens, and I said, “So did the Viet Cong bring heroin?” Because there’s never been evidence that it happened this way, and they just looked at me and they said, “There’s no Viet Cong.” Like, “What are you talking about?
而且，几周前，我在河内与这些越共将军坐在一起研究吸毒智人的情况，我说：“那么，越共带来了海洛因吗？”因为从来没有证据表明事情是这样发生的，他们只是看着我说：“没有越共。”比如，“你在说什么？
You are the Viet Cong.” They said, “No, this is an American propaganda term.
你是越共。”他们说：“不，这是美国的宣传术语。
We were the North Vietnamese Army.
我们是北越军队。
We never called ourselves the Viet Cong.” So the book is full of surprises, obviously.
我们从未称自己为越共。”所以这本书显然充满了惊喜。
But the very early beginning of Stoned Sapiens goes back to about 1.5 million years ago when Homo erectus, who has also become kind of famous by now, Homo erectus, is like the first human that really gets shit done, you know.
但石头智人的早期起源可以追溯到大约 150 万年前，当时直立人（现在也变得有点出名）是第一个真正完成任务的人类，你知道。
They-
他们——
Yeah, they get moving.
是的，他们开始行动了。
Yeah, they move.
是的，他们移动了。
3:01:26 Yeah.
是的。
And why were they moving?
他们为什么要搬家？
Why were they moving?
他们为什么要搬家？
3:01:28 I mean, then you can examine exactly where they originated, which was, I mean, it’s also disputed by now that it’s the Great Rift Valley, that only the most fossils have been found there, but that doesn’t mean that they originated there.
我的意思是，然后你可以准确地检查它们的起源地，我的意思是，现在也有争议，它是东非大裂谷，在那里只发现了最多的化石，但这并不意味着它们起源于那里。
Maybe they originated in the Central African rainforest where fossils disintegrate, and only there in the Rift Valley do we still find it.
也许它们起源于化石分解的中非雨林，只有在东非大裂谷我们才能找到它。
So but we know for sure that in the Great Rift Valley there was a plant called khat, which is like a plant speed.
所以但我们可以肯定地知道，在东非大裂谷有一种叫做卡塔叶的植物，它就像一种植物速度。
So they were using that.
所以他们正在使用它。
It’s still being used now in these countries, in Ethiopia, Yemen, around the Horn of Africa.
现在，埃塞俄比亚、也门、非洲之角周围的这些国家仍在使用它。
Khat is very normal to use.
Khat 的使用非常正常。
You chew the leaves and it gives you…
你咀嚼叶子，它会给你……
It’s like an amphetamine.
它就像安非他明。
It’s a plant amphetamine, basically.
基本上，它是一种植物安非他明。
3:02:16 So Homo erectus, there’s no proof that they actually used it, but they were living in that area and the plant was there, so you can write about that.
所以直立人，没有证据表明他们确实使用过它，但他们生活在那个地区并且植物就在那里，所以你可以写下来。
So it’s interesting because they were able to do certain things, like they shed their fur.
所以这很有趣，因为他们能够做某些事情，比如脱掉皮毛。
They were the first ones to suddenly be naked.
他们是第一批突然赤身裸体的人。
And that has the effect that sweat glands are produced.
这会产生汗腺的作用。
Homo erectus could sweat it out basically when they were very hot.
直立人在很热的时候基本上可以出汗。
What animals couldn’t do because they had the fur.
动物因为有皮毛而无法做到的事情。
So an antelope can run faster than a Homo erectus, but after 10 minutes, the antelope has to stop, like what dogs do, their tongue goes out.
因此，羚羊可以比直立人跑得更快，但是10分钟后，羚羊必须停下来，就像狗一样，它们的舌头会伸出来。
And humans didn’t have to do that because they were sweating, so they developed the jogging mode, basically.
人类不必这样做，因为他们会出汗，所以他们基本上开发了慢跑模式。
3:03:07 So they were jogging.
所以他们正在慢跑。
They were not sprinting to get the animal, they were jogging, and when the animal couldn’t do it, had to rest, then the humans would come and hunt it down.
他们不是冲刺去抓动物，而是慢跑，当动物做不到，不得不休息时，人类就会来追捕它。
So Homo erectus was very…
所以直立人非常……
was evolutionary very good.
进化得非常好。
And then later, one of the species coming out of Homo erectus is Homo sapiens.
后来，直立人的其中一个物种是智人。
3:03:27 At one point, there were only about 1,500 people left.
一度只剩下约1500人。
There were not a lot of Homo sapiens.
智人并不多。
There was a point in time when there were quite a few of them, and the problem became inbreeding, and there was a real danger of extinction.
曾经有一段时间，它们的数量相当多，问题就变成了近亲繁殖，真正面临灭绝的危险。
They were vulnerable, you know?
他们很脆弱，你知道吗？
They were not on top of the food chain yet, so they had to develop consciousness.
他们还没有处于食物链的顶端，所以他们必须发展意识。
Consciousness is what basically saved us from extinction.
意识基本上使我们免于灭绝。
Without human consciousness, we wouldn’t be here, you know?
如果没有人类意识，我们就不会在这里，你知道吗？
That is what made us, in the end, superior to other animals.
这就是我们最终优于其他动物的原因。
So, how did this happen?
那么，这是怎么发生的呢？
You can kind of trace how they moved.
你可以追踪它们是如何移动的。
You can trace that they went through the Central African rainforest, and there’s one plant there which elephants like, and that’s iboga.
你可以追溯到它们穿过中非雨林，那里有一种大象喜欢的植物，那就是伊博加。
3:04:13 And iboga now is like the hot thing of the psychedelic renaissance.
现在的伊博加就像迷幻文艺复兴时期的热门事物。
Iboga, iboga, iboga.
伊博加，伊博加，伊博加。
But it’s also the oldest drug in the book, basically.
但基本上，它也是书中最古老的药物。
They saw that elephants were eating iboga, the root and the leaves, and suddenly were like, walking backward and were behaving in an unusual way, and then people were also using this.
他们看到大象正在吃伊博加（iboga）、根和叶子，然后突然像向后走一样，行为方式很不寻常，然后人们也使用了这个。
And this was going on for about 100,000 years in the rainforest.
这种情况在雨林中持续了大约十万年。
So, you can write a story about that, you know.
所以，你可以写一个关于这个的故事，你知道。
Was it maybe iboga?
也许是伊博加？
Of course, you can’t prove it.
当然，你无法证明这一点。
You know, maybe the frontal cortex grew by itself, you know?
你知道，也许额叶皮层会自己生长，你知道吗？
That’s a really compelling story.
这真是一个引人入胜的故事。
3:04:49 That’s one of the great mysteries of…
这是……最大的谜团之一。
How did the light turn on?
灯怎么亮的？
Right.
正确的。
The magic of human cognition and consciousness, and the-
人类认知和意识的魔力，以及——
Like Sapiens by Harari, which is a great book, he also misses that.
就像赫拉利（Harari）的《智人》（Sapiens）这本伟大的书一样，他也怀念这一点。
3:04:59 When it comes to those moments, he writes, “We don’t understand how the first cognitive revolution and the second cognitive revolution actually happened.” So, I find it interesting to kind of look, could it have been drugs?
当谈到这些时刻时，他写道，“我们不明白第一次认知革命和第二次认知革命实际上是如何发生的。”所以，我觉得看起来很有趣，这可能是毒品吗？
Like, I include everything he leaves out, I look at thoroughly in Stoned Sapiens.
就像，我把他遗漏的一切都包括在内，我在《石头人》中仔细观察过。
I mean, he does a good explanation of interesting consequences.
我的意思是，他对有趣的后果做了很好的解释。
3:05:24 You know, our ability to imagine ideas and share them and, you know, collaborate on them, and the imagination, all that kind of stuff.
你知道，我们想象想法并分享它们的能力，你知道，就它们进行协作的能力，以及想象力，所有这些东西。
But the why, the transitions of why did it happen, he doesn’t provide, right?
但他没有提供为什么，为什么会发生这样的转变，对吗？
I mean, there are some theories, but if iboga is one of them, that’s a compelling one.
我的意思是，有一些理论，但如果伊博加是其中之一，那就是一个令人信服的理论。
That’s a really compelling one.
这是一个非常引人注目的。
Yeah.
是的。
3:05:51 I mean, I’m still researching this book and writing it.
我的意思是，我仍在研究并撰写这本书。
I also want to go there, because they still take iboga in Gabon, for example.
我也想去那里，因为例如加蓬他们仍然采取伊博加。
I also interviewed one of the leading iboga experts at Columbia University for Stoned Sapiens, and he described how iboga works in the brain because that’s…
我还采访了哥伦比亚大学 Stoned Sapiens 的一位顶尖 iboga 专家，他描述了 iboga 如何在大脑中发挥作用，因为那是……
and he’s never taken iboga himself.
他自己也从未服用过伊博加。
Oh, interesting.
哦，有趣。
He just relies on the data.
他只依赖数据。
3:06:18 He doesn’t want to be personally influenced.
他不想受到个人影响。
But he said he will take it at a certain point in time.
但他表示他会在某个时间点采取行动。
But right now, he’s still just working on data, just with patients, you know?
但现在，他仍然只是在研究数据，只是在与病人一起工作，你知道吗？
And what he found, and also examining in the brain through brain scanners, what actually happens in the classic psychedelics like LSD or psilocybin, they dock at certain points.
他发现，通过脑部扫描仪在大脑中检查，LSD 或裸盖菇素等经典致幻剂中实际发生的情况，它们在某些点上停靠。
They interact with certain receptors.
它们与某些受体相互作用。
It’s quite well understood how they work.
它们的工作原理很好理解。
And he said iboga is completely different.
他说伊博加完全不同。
It’s like…
就像……
And he also showed this with his hands, because he’s just so mesmerized by his own findings.
他还用自己的双手展示了这一点，因为他对自己的发现非常着迷。
It kind of—it’s kind of everywhere at the same time in the brain, like…
它有点——它在大脑中同时无处不在，就像……
He says it’s like a spa for the neurons, basically.
他说这基本上就像神经元的水疗中心。
It is…
它是……
3:07:02 His findings show—and these are academic findings at Columbia—that iboga, it’s like, as if, he said to me, as if iboga would know our brain from a long time.
他的研究结果表明——这些都是哥伦比亚大学的学术发现——伊博加，他对我说，就好像伊博加很久以来就了解我们的大脑一样。
Like, it knows exactly if you’re addicted to something, or if you’re depressed.
就像，它确切地知道你是否对某件事上瘾，或者你是否感到沮丧。
The depression literally is a depression in the neuronal network.
从字面上看，抑郁症是神经元网络中的抑郁症。
Depression is a thought loop, for example, or, you know, a system of thought loops that you’re on, that, “I’m not worthy, I’m not whatever, I can’t do it.” You always go back.
例如，抑郁症是一个思维循环，或者，你知道，你所处的一个思维循环系统，“我不值得，我什么都不是，我做不到。”你总会回去的。
It really kind of depresses your brain in a way.
它确实在某种程度上抑制了你的大脑。
And iboga sees this immediately, and kind of takes the depression out and makes your brain go basically well again.
伊博加立即看到了这一点，并消除了抑郁，让你的大脑再次基本正常运转。
So, this is what his findings are.
所以，这就是他的发现。
So, it seems…
所以，看来……
3:07:53 He says he’s totally convinced this is like a…
他说他完全相信这就像……
He doesn’t call it a plant.
他不称其为植物。
He calls it like a neurotechnology of the 22nd century.
他称其为 22 世纪的神经技术。
So, iboga really seems to be in a different kind of category.
所以，iboga 似乎确实属于不同的类别。
That’s why I really feel that Stoned Sapiens must be written, because there’s so much that historians just shied away from.
这就是为什么我真的觉得必须写《石头人》，因为历史学家回避的东西太多了。
And it all started when I was on the island of Crete, the biggest island of Greece.
这一切都始于我在希腊最大的岛屿克里特岛时。
Crete, that’s another, like, Harari moment.
克里特岛，这又是一个哈拉里时刻。
On Crete was the first what is called high culture of Europe, the Minoan culture.
克里特岛诞生了欧洲第一个所谓的高雅文化，即米诺斯文化。
You might have heard of the Minoan culture.
您可能听说过米诺斯文化。
3:08:37 And no one can explain, so far, why there, on Crete, suddenly in Europe, they started making amazing structures and amazing art, and how did it happen there that this, like, totally backwards place, Crete, became…
到目前为止，没有人能解释为什么在克里特岛，突然在欧洲，他们开始建造令人惊叹的建筑和令人惊叹的艺术，以及如何发生在那里，这个完全落后的地方，克里特岛，变成了……
I mean, backwards as any other place, you know?
我的意思是，和其他地方一样倒退，你知道吗？
Why did it happen there that such intricate objects were being made and that the culture was developing so intensely?
为什么那里会制造出如此复杂的物品并且文化会如此强烈地发展？
And I was kind of thinking about that.
我正在思考这个问题。
That’s how the book started.
这本书就是这样开始的。
I was with my kids on vacation in Crete.
我和我的孩子们在克里特岛度假。
And if you go to, like, Knossos or Phaistos, the big archaeological sites, or to the museum in Heraklion, you don’t find an answer.
如果你去克诺索斯或斐斯托斯这样的大型考古遗址，或者去伊拉克利翁的博物馆，你找不到答案。
Why did it happen there?
为什么会发生在那里？
3:09:28 And then I found an old book in an old bookshop, and it described an excavation site at the sea, and that it was maybe a maritime place, or like a harbor basically.
然后我在一家旧书店找到一本旧书，它描述了海上的一个挖掘地点，那可能是一个沿海地区，或者基本上就像一个港口。
And then while I was swimming there, I found on the seafloor, the remnants of a wall that was a harbor wall that was out, that was breaking the waves, and then I climbed over the fence because the archaeological site is still fenced off, like it’s not explained officially what it is, and the walls in there are the biggest walls of the whole Bronze Era, and it was actually quite a big harbor.
然后当我在那里游泳的时候，我在海底发现了一堵墙的残骸，那是一个港口墙，当时它正在破浪，然后我爬过围栏，因为考古遗址仍然被围起来，就像官方没有解释它是什么一样，那里的墙是整个青铜时代最大的墙，它实际上是一个很大的港口。
And then the next step is what did they trade?
那么下一步是他们交易了什么？
And they traded olive oil because Crete was the first place to produce olive oil.
他们交易橄榄油，因为克里特岛是第一个生产橄榄油的地方。
3:10:24 And then I also found, and this is historically documented, opium was made in Crete and the poppy flower was growing there.
然后我还发现，历史上有记载，鸦片是在克里特岛生产的，罂粟花也生长在那里。
And this was the harbor.
这就是港口。
Basically, they became incredibly wealthy through olive oil and opium trade through that harbor.
基本上，他们通过该港口的橄榄油和鸦片贸易变得异常富有。
So you could say that the whole of the European high culture, which goes from Minoan, goes to Athens, so it all started basically with, you know, they were drug dealers in a way.
所以你可以说整个欧洲的高雅文化，从米诺斯文明到雅典，所以这一切基本上都是从某种程度上开始的，你知道，他们是毒贩。
Or they…
或者他们……
I mean, it was the most potent medicine, because it was the only medicine that numbs the pain for sure.
我的意思是，它是最有效的药物，因为它是唯一能麻痹疼痛的药物。
You know, opium works, and the Minoans developed that.
你知道，鸦片有效，是米诺斯人发明的。
So, I mean, it’s kind of, it’s a bit similar to the Blitz experience.
所以，我的意思是，这有点类似于闪电战的体验。
You know what, the more I did research, the more I found—
你知道吗，我研究得越多，发现的就越多——
That there’s this whole component to human history- …that could be a- a really critical component.
人类历史的整个组成部分——……这可能是——一个非常关键的组成部分。
3:11:17 I mean, I am really interested about the origin…
我的意思是，我对起源真的很感兴趣……
There’s certain leaps, like the- the origins of human civilization, and then the origins of homo sapiens.
有一些飞跃，比如人类文明的起源，然后是智人的起源。
Those are really big leaps.
这些确实是巨大的飞跃。
I mean, there’s some evidence, you know, like, they came through the area where Iboga was, but there’s no academic proof.
我的意思是，有一些证据，你知道，比如，他们来自伊博加所在的地区，但没有学术证据。
3:11:32 So I guess an academically trained historian couldn’t really write about that.
所以我想一个受过学术训练的历史学家不可能真正写出这个。
But I can write about it.
但我可以写一下。
I can write about possibilities.
我可以写一些可能性。
Yeah, sometimes…
是的，有时……
3:11:51 I mean, that’s what…
我的意思是，那就是……
The- the farther into history you go, the more it’s about writing the possibilities.
你对历史的了解越深入，就越能书写可能性。
I mean, it’s also interesting why did the Neanderthals die out?
我的意思是，尼安德特人为何灭绝也很有趣？
3:12:01 And what we can compare is the cave art.
我们可以比较的是洞穴艺术。
And the cave art of the Neanderthals is much simpler than ours.
尼安德特人的洞穴艺术比我们的简单得多。
Like, if you really get into the cave art, I don’t know if you’ve done that-
就像，如果你真的喜欢洞穴艺术，我不知道你是否做到了——
Have not, no.
没有，没有。
It’s quite fascinating.
这非常令人着迷。
3:12:16 Picasso looked at some of the cave paintings in Southern France, and he said, “We didn’t learn anything new.” And if you study them, they’re really good, but only the humans are good.
毕加索看了法国南部的一些洞穴壁画，他说：“我们没有学到任何新东西。”如果你研究他们，他们真的很好，但只有人类才是好的。
The Neanderthals, they were worse artists than us.
尼安德特人，他们是比我们更糟糕的艺术家。
And you can also see there’s a very famous one that comes from Algeria with a shaman and around his body like mushrooms grow out of his body, so he was like a mushroom shaman.
你还可以看到，有一个非常有名的人，来自阿尔及利亚，有一个萨满，他的身体周围像蘑菇一样从他的身体里长出来，所以他就像一个蘑菇萨满。
So mushrooms seem to have been, like, part, at least in that area, and, I mean, that’s the stoned ape theory-
所以蘑菇似乎是，至少在那个地区的一部分，而且，我的意思是，这就是石猿理论 -
3:12:53 …that Terence McKenna did.
……特伦斯·麦肯纳就是这么做的。
And I think, a lot of evidence kind of points to it that we were able to develop our consciousness in a better way than the Neanderthals, who did not have a drug culture.
我认为，很多证据都表明，我们能够以比没有毒品文化的尼安德特人更好的方式发展我们的意识。
They were basically too sober for the future.
对于未来，他们基本上太清醒了。
We assimilated them.
我们同化了他们。
They had no chance against our impetus of boldly going where no one has gone before.
他们没有机会抵抗我们大胆前往前人未曾去过的地方的动力。
They were much more happy with what they had.
他们对自己所拥有的更加满意。
They were not progressing all the time.
他们并不是一直在进步。
Like, we have the transcendental kind of moment, which is, you know, the psychedelic experience.
就像，我们有一种超然的时刻，这就是，你知道，迷幻的体验。
I guess you could think of it without it, but to imagine sapiens makes more sense to imagine sapiens as Stoned Sapiens, as a species that was able to incorporate psychoactive components into its development.
我想你可以在没有它的情况下思考它，但想象智人更有意义，将智人想象为石头智人，作为一个能够将精神活性成分纳入其发展的物种。
It makes a lot of sense.
这很有意义。
What about one of the great, if you can think of it that way, technologies that humans have developed is religion.
如果你可以这样想的话，人类开发的最伟大的技术之一就是宗教。
3:13:52 Religion evolved different kinds.
宗教演化出了不同的种类。
Do you think there’s a connection between psychedelics and religion, the development of religion throughout different parts of the world?
您认为迷幻药和宗教以及宗教在世界不同地区的发展之间有联系吗？
Well, I think Moses is quite interesting.
嗯，我觉得摩西很有趣。
3:14:07 Moses was a traumatized man that had fled Egypt, where he had killed a man who had been beating up a Hebrew.
摩西是一个逃离埃及的饱受创伤的人，他在那里杀死了一名正在殴打希伯来人的人。
So Moses kind of took revenge and killed him.
于是摩西报复并杀死了他。
So he was running from the law and he was, together with, in the Bible it says, I think 66 people.
所以他在逃避法律，而他和《圣经》中所说的，我想有 66 个人在一起。
They were in the desert, in the Sinai, and they had been fasting for days and no alcohol.
他们在西奈半岛的沙漠里，已经禁食好几天了，没有喝酒。
So it was kind of a psychedelic retreat, basically.
所以这基本上是一种迷幻的撤退。
I mean, this is being examined by Israeli scholars and I think it’s very interesting work.
我的意思是，以色列学者正在对此进行研究，我认为这是非常有趣的工作。
They examine in detail what the Bible says, and the Bible mentions in that passage where Moses sees the burning bush and then gets the Ten Commandments.
他们详细研究圣经的内容，圣经在那段经文中提到摩西看到燃烧的荆棘，然后得到十诫。
3:15:03 In that Bible passage, several times the acacia is mentioned.
在那段圣经经文中，多次提到金合欢树。
And the Egyptian acacia grows right in that Sinai area and contains DMT.
埃及金合欢树就生长在西奈半岛地区，含有 DMT。
So there’s this Israeli research that Moses was actually having a trip, basically, that he was seeing, he was hallucinating the burning bush.
以色列的一项研究表明，摩西实际上正在旅行，基本上，他看到的是，他产生了燃烧的灌木丛的幻觉。
You know, if you take LSD and you look at a bush in the heat, you know, it will move, you know?
你知道，如果你服用LSD，然后你在炎热的天气里看着灌木丛，你知道，它会移动，你知道吗？
It might resemble a burning experience.
它可能类似于一种燃烧的经历。
And he went up the mountain, which takes three hours, while the others were staying down.
然后他就上山了，花了三个小时，而其他人都留在了山下。
And with the DMT type of experience, it’s not that everyone in the group has the same experience, you know, to Ayahuasca.
对于 DMT 类型的体验，并不是团队中的每个人都有相同的体验，你知道，死藤水。
3:15:54 Sometimes, like one guy has an incredible experience, while another person might not feel that much at all, and Moses felt a lot.
有时候，就像一个人经历了一次令人难以置信的经历，而另一个人可能根本没有那么多感觉，而摩西却感觉很多。
And you do feel a lot when you, you know, when you have something to work through, and he certainly had something to work through, the trauma of killing a man.
当你，你知道，当你有一些事情需要解决时，你确实会有很多感觉，而他当然也有一些事情需要解决，那就是杀人的创伤。
So it’s also no surprise that he receives one of the commandments, “You should not kill,” you know?
因此，他收到其中一条诫命“你不应该杀人”也就不足为奇了，你知道吗？
So for him, it’s extremely, extremely important what he receives on the mountain, that God is like, “There’s someone speaking to me,” and he understands that God is not, that there’s not many gods, just one God.
所以对他来说，他在山上收到的东西非常非常重要，上帝就像是，“有人在对我说话，”他明白上帝不是，没有很多神，只有一位神。
He has a revelation, you know?
他有一个启示，你知道吗？
3:16:38 And I think when I, when I read, you know, these examinations by these scholars, I think it makes a lot of sense to imagine that the Jewish religion comes from Moses’ trip.
我想，当我读到这些学者的这些检验时，我认为想象犹太宗教来自摩西的旅行是很有意义的。
And also, if you look at the Jewish religion, they are quite open to drugs.
而且，如果你看看犹太教，他们对毒品相当开放。
I don’t know if that, you know, that could be an unconscious reaction to that, to that kind of trippy beginning.
我不知道这是否是对这种迷幻开始的无意识反应。
Like, they have Purim where it’s like, you’re supposed to get intoxicated to get closer to God.
就像，他们有普珥节，你应该喝醉才能更接近上帝。
They’re not as straight-laced as the Christians.
他们不像基督徒那样拘谨。
Like, they just, you know, they just allow alcohol; it’s like the blood of Christ.
就像，他们只是，你知道，他们只是允许喝酒；就像基督的血。
So also, Stoned Sapiens is a book about religion.
《Stoned Sapiens》也是一本关于宗教的书。
3:17:16 Also, Islam and intoxication is also a very interesting topic, because you have the Sufis who intoxicate themselves to get into ecstasy, to be closer to God, and then you have, like, the conservative Islamic scholar, Ibn Taimiyya, who defended Damascus against the Mongols by combining anti-drug rhetoric, like, “They’re bringing drugs to us and they are not good Muslims.” So drugs in religion, sometimes drugs kind of help religion to, like, are used in religious contexts, but then you can also see that religions work as prohibitionist movements against drugs, like the Christian church.
此外，伊斯兰教和酗酒也是一个非常有趣的话题，因为苏菲派通过酗酒来达到狂喜，为了更接近上帝，然后还有保守派伊斯兰学者伊本·泰米亚（Ibn Taimiyya），他通过结合反毒品言论来保护大马士革免受蒙古人的侵害，比如“他们给我们带来毒品，他们不是好穆斯林。”因此，宗教中的毒品，有时毒品可以帮助宗教在宗教背景下使用，但你也可以看到宗教作为反毒品的禁止主义运动发挥作用，就像基督教会一样。
3:18:01 Also the Purity Law, for example, it’s very famous in Germany.
还有纯度法，例如，它在德国非常有名。
It’s called the Reinheitsgebot.
它被称为 Reinheitsgebot。
Beer can only contain three things: water, hops and barley or something like that.
啤酒只能含有三种物质：水、啤酒花和大麦或类似的东西。
That’s the Purity Law.
这就是纯度法则。
And that was done by the church in the 16th century.
这是教会在 16 世纪所做的。
And in Germany, for a long time, this was seen as like, this is like a quality control, like beer has to be pure, it only has these ingredients.
在德国，很长一段时间，这被视为质量控制，就像啤酒必须是纯净的，它只有这些成分。
But it’s actually a move by the church to weed out all the other ingredients that had been put in beer before, like nightshade plants.
但这实际上是教会的一项举措，目的是清除以前添加到啤酒中的所有其他成分，例如茄属植物。
So beer…
所以啤酒...
Also, witches were brewing crazy beer you drink and you have visions and you dance around the fire.
此外，女巫们正在酿造疯狂的啤酒，你喝了之后你会产生幻觉，你会围着火跳舞。
It’s like…
就像……
3:18:44 And the church didn’t like this, so the church said, “This is the beer now,” and especially the hops was the new ingredient for the beer.
教会不喜欢这样，所以教会说，“这就是现在的啤酒”，尤其是啤酒花是啤酒的新成分。
And so the Purity Law is the first prohibitionist law in the Middle Ages in Europe.
因此，《纯洁法》是欧洲中世纪第一部禁酒法。
Another fascinating…
另一个令人着迷的…
Yeah.
是的。
3:19:02 I- I think as society becomes, develops more and more, it d- seems to resist, certainly psychedelics, s- seems to resist drugs.
我-我认为随着社会变得越来越发展，它-似乎在抵制，当然是迷幻药，-似乎在抵制毒品。
I don’t know what that’s about.
我不知道那是怎么回事。
One of the very fascinating turning points that I have been able to kind of pinpoint, or at least I think this is what happened, is when did the first kings come up?
我能够指出的一个非常令人着迷的转折点，或者至少我认为这就是发生的事情，是第一个国王是什么时候出现的？
3:19:16 They weren’t kings for a very long time.
他们当国王的时间并不长。
The first king that I can identify was in the so-called Sumerian high culture, was in Uruk, was Gilgamesh, and they wrote the Gilgamesh Epic about, you know, the great king.
我能识别的第一个国王是在所谓的苏美尔高级文化中，在乌鲁克，是吉尔伽美什，他们写了关于伟大国王的吉尔伽美什史诗。
But that was four or 5,000 years ago, something like that.
但那是四五千年前的事了。
But what happened in the thousands of years before, there’s no source that there were rulers.
但几千年前发生的事情，没有任何来源表明有统治者。
It seems like humans were quite good in organizing themselves without kings before these first kings came.
在第一批国王到来之前，人类似乎在没有国王的情况下很擅长组织自己。
And I mean, thousands of years from the end of the Ice Age until the Sumerian high culture, there were no kings.
我的意思是，从冰河时代结束到苏美尔高级文化的数千年里，没有国王。
3:20:14 So people were quite able to organize their communities.
所以人们完全能够组织他们的社区。
There was, for example, Çatal Hüyük in Eastern Turkey- that was working for like 2,000 years without any hierarchies.
例如，土耳其东部的 Çatal Hüyük 已经工作了大约 2000 年，没有任何等级制度。
I think that is, that is quite interesting, and then why do suddenly the hierarchies start and what makes the hierarchy stronger?
我认为这很有趣，那么为什么等级制度会突然开始，又是什么让等级制度变得更强？
And again, I’m still researching this, but in Sumeria, we can see that it’s the beer that destroys the hierarchy-free society, because they are able…
再说一遍，我仍在研究这一点，但在苏美尔，我们可以看到是啤酒破坏了无等级社会，因为他们能够……
I mean, beer is quite old.
我的意思是，啤酒已经很古老了。
The first beer was made in Gobekli Tepe, the famous first kind of structure of mankind.
第一批啤酒是在哥贝克力石阵（Gobekli Tepe）酿造的，哥贝克力石阵是人类著名的第一种建筑。
I also write about that, because it’s very interesting.
我也写了这个，因为它很有趣。
3:20:56 Small detour, what is Gobekli Tepe?
小绕道，什么是哥贝克力石阵？
No one knows.
没有人知道。
How did they make it?
他们是怎么做到的？
No one knows.
没有人知道。
But why did they make it?
但他们为什么能成功呢？
I think they made it because they were creating a meeting place, and why was that so important?
我认为他们之所以能做到这一点是因为他们正在创造一个聚会场所，为什么这如此重要？
There were not so many humans at the time, there were like one to four million, those are the estimates, on the whole planet.
当时的人类数量并不多，据估计，整个地球上大约有一到四百万。
And they were usually living in small communities of like a hundred people up to 500, not more.
他们通常生活在 100 人到 500 人左右的小社区中，而不是更多。
But so the problem then is, again, inbreeding.
但问题又是近亲繁殖。
Inbreeding means it’s a degeneration, so it’s a problem.
近亲繁殖意味着退化，所以这是一个问题。
We are genetically not so diverse, actually, as humans, so it…
事实上，作为人类，我们的基因并不那么多样化，所以……
But Gobekli Tepe people were meeting from different areas, having sex with people they usually wouldn’t see…
但哥贝克力石阵的人们来自不同的地区，与他们通常不会见到的人发生性关系……
…
……
Creating healthy children.
造就健康的孩子。
3:21:47 And Gobekli Tepe was working for 1,600 years, and I think it was an evolutionary kind of machine.
哥贝克力石阵已经工作了 1,600 年，我认为这是一种进化的机器。
Like, without that idea, we’re going to create a fucking place…
就像，如果没有这个想法，我们就会创建一个他妈的地方......
…Or a party place.
……或者聚会场所。
3:22:00 It was a party, basically.
基本上，这是一场聚会。
They were eating very well.
他们吃得很好。
They found a lot of bones, but no one lived there.
他们发现了很多骨头，但没有人住在那里。
They just came together for parties.
他们只是聚在一起参加聚会。
And after 800 years, they started making beer there, and then the situation slightly changed.
800年后，他们开始在那里酿造啤酒，然后情况发生了轻微的变化。
They found these places where they made beer; you can still find the chemicals, and it’s sure that they made beer there.
他们找到了这些酿造啤酒的地方；你仍然可以找到这些化学物质，而且可以肯定他们在那里酿造了啤酒。
And then once they make beer, they create different stone circles, and it changes.
一旦他们酿造了啤酒，他们就会创造出不同的石圈，它就会发生变化。
We can see clearly how it changes in the Sumerian high culture when beer becomes a business.
我们可以清楚地看到，当啤酒成为一项生意时，苏美尔高雅文化发生了怎样的变化。
Beer is being done by the priests, by the ruling class, or a ruling class emerges.
啤酒是由牧师、统治阶级酿造的，或者是统治阶级的出现。
3:22:46 Monasteries often brew beer, and that was also the case in the Sumerian high culture.
修道院经常酿造啤酒，苏美尔高雅文化也是如此。
They make beer.
他们酿造啤酒。
They labeled the beer, and the temple that would make the beer, the beer would be attributed to that temple.
他们给啤酒贴上标签，以及酿造啤酒的寺庙，啤酒就会归属于那个寺庙。
It would be sold, so that temple rises in status, makes money.
卖掉它，寺庙的地位就会提高，就能赚钱。
That’s how hierarchies started up.
等级制度就是这样开始的。
So the hierarchy, which is the big problem right now, that we have these hierarchies, that we have these kings everywhere that steal our money, or at least make it very difficult for us as humans to organize on an egalitarian planetary scale, which is our only chance for survival.
因此，等级制度是现在的大问题，我们有这些等级制度，我们到处都有这些国王偷我们的钱，或者至少让我们作为人类很难在平等的全球范围内组织起来，这是我们生存的唯一机会。
3:23:26 If we, at one point, overcome the hierarchies, overcome the nation-states, and create a planetary, probably AI-assisted, open-source AI-assisted planetary society, and everyone has the same political rights, there are no more borders, there’s a planetary minimum income so no one is starving, everyone has at least what everyone needs, which is totally possible.
如果我们在某一时刻克服等级制度，克服民族国家，创建一个全球性的、可能是人工智能辅助的、开源的人工智能辅助的行星社会，并且每个人都拥有相同的政治权利，那么就不再有边界，有一个全球最低收入，所以没有人挨饿，每个人至少拥有每个人需要的东西，这是完全可能的。
It’s just a problem of organizing and of breaking the resistance of those who don’t like that, and there’s a lot of resistance, obviously.
这只是一个组织和打破那些不喜欢这样的人的抵抗的问题，显然存在很多抵抗。
I mean, I’m talking about what’s happening on the planet in 50 years, not what’s going to happen tomorrow, but that is where we are slowly moving towards.
我的意思是，我谈论的是 50 年后地球上发生的事情，而不是明天会发生的事情，但这就是我们正在慢慢迈向的方向。
And you can see that this actually comes from a time when we were able to organize ourselves without kings.
你可以看到，这实际上来自我们能够在没有国王的情况下组织起来的时代。
3:24:12 We don’t need kings.
我们不需要国王。
Kings always say, “If you don’t have me, then someone else, some other guy will come,” but you know, that’s why I’m not…
国王总是说，“如果你没有我，那么其他人、其他人就会来，”但你知道，这就是为什么我不……
If a nation-state makes war against another nation-state, I’m not taking a position and saying, “This country is better.” Basically, both nation-states are doing war, and who has to suffer is us, you know?
如果一个民族国家对另一个民族国家发动战争，我不会采取立场说“这个国家更好”。基本上，两个民族国家都在打仗，谁受苦就是我们，你知道吗？
It’s Stoned Sapiens, it’s the human species.
这是石头人，这是人类。
Speaking of which, I have to ask you…
说到这里，我不得不问你……
3:24:39 I’ve done psilocybin a bunch, and I’ve done ayahuasca, but I’ve never done LSD, acid, and you have quite a bit.
我吸过很多裸盖菇素，也吸过死藤水，但我从来没有吸过LSD、迷幻药，而你吸过不少。
So, maybe the big general question is what’s LSD like?
所以，也许最大的普遍问题是 LSD 是什么样的？
In the space of psychedelics, which funny enough, we haven’t really spoken a lot about psychedelics—
在迷幻药领域，有趣的是，我们并没有真正谈论过很多关于迷幻药的话题——
Right
右
…except in the context of Stoned Sapiens.
......除了在石头智人的背景下。
3:25:04 What’s LSD like?
LSD是什么样的？
Well, this is probably the third book that we want to talk about, is—
嗯，这可能是我们要谈论的第三本书，是——
Tripped
绊倒
Tripped, because Tripped is an examination of the history of LSD.
Tripped，因为 Tripped 是对 LSD 历史的审视。
3:25:16 And that sounds maybe less interesting than it actually is.
这听起来可能没有实际那么有趣。
It’s…
这是……
I mean, I find it fascinating.
我的意思是，我觉得这很有趣。
I had tried LSD.
我曾尝试过LSD。
It was given to me by my girlfriend at the time, Anya, in Lower Manhattan on a Saturday night, 1993.
这是 1993 年星期六晚上我当时的女朋友安雅在曼哈顿下城送给我的。
So, I was like 23.
所以，我大概23岁。
3:25:48 And she said, “Let’s take LSD.” And I’d never really taken any drug.
她说：“我们来服用迷幻药吧。”而且我从来没有真正服用过任何药物。
I’d maybe smoked a bit of weed, but I didn’t know what a strong drug is.
我可能吸过一点大麻，但我不知道什么是强力毒品。
And she gave me this paper, and I took it, and we walked around in the East Village, pre-gentrified East Village.
她给了我这张纸，我拿着它，然后我们在东村走来走去，前中产阶级化的东村。
It’s pretty cool, actually.
实际上，这很酷。
And it didn’t work.
但它不起作用。
For like one hour, I felt nothing, and then I went into the toilet.
大约一个小时，我什么感觉都没有，然后我就进了厕所。
I had a falafel or something.
我吃了沙拉三明治什么的。
I went into the toilet, and there was a mirror.
我走进厕所，里面有一面镜子。
I was peeing, and then there was this mirror, but the walls had lines.
我正在撒尿，然后就有了这面镜子，但墙上有线条。
They were painted in lines.
它们被画成线条。
Suddenly, these lines started to vibrate, and then the trip started, and it was such an overpowerful experience that I thought I would go insane.
突然，这些线条开始振动，然后旅程开始了，这是一种如此强烈的体验，我以为我会发疯。
It was the worst trip I’ve ever had.
这是我经历过的最糟糕的旅行。
It was, because—
是因为——
You got scared?
你害怕了吗？
It was so strong.
太强了。
3:26:43 I was totally scared.
我完全害怕了。
I didn’t know what it was.
我不知道那是什么。
I suddenly…
我突然……
I walked.
我走着。
I said to my girlfriend, “It’s working.” And she said, “Yes, it’s working, I feel it also.” And I went into No-Tell Motel, which was my favorite bar, just to be in a familiar environment.
我对女朋友说：“成功了。”她说：“是的，它有效，我也感觉到了。”我走进了No-Tell Motel，这是我最喜欢的酒吧，只是为了在一个熟悉的环境中。
It’s not a good idea on your first very strong LSD trip to be out— …in Lower Manhattan on a Saturday night, but I also didn’t know this.
在你第一次强烈的 LSD 之旅中，周六晚上在曼哈顿下城外出并不是一个好主意，但我也不知道这一点。
You know?
你知道？
So, I was in the bar, and I saw my friend, Dora Espinoza from Peru.
所以，我在酒吧里，见到了我的朋友，来自秘鲁的多拉·埃斯皮诺萨。
She was quite a small woman.
她是一个相当娇小的女人。
I don’t know the American system, maybe 1 meter 50, so she was quite short.
我不知道美国的制度，可能是1米50，所以她很矮。
Short is the right word.
简短是正确的词。
But on LSD, she was like this.
但服用LSD后，她就变成了这样。
Like tiny.
像小号一样。
So I saw her down there, like, and I said, “Dora!
所以我看到她在那里，我说：“朵拉！
3:27:25 Do I look normal?
我看起来正常吗？
Because you look very small.” And Dora’s like, “No, you look fine.” I’m like, “Okay, I gotta get out of here.” And then we walked up to 2nd Avenue, and we saw a bunch of Puerto Rican kids killing one of their…
因为你看起来很小。”多拉说：“不，你看起来很好。”我想，“好吧，我得离开这里了。”然后我们走到第二大道，我们看到一群波多黎各孩子杀死了他们的一个……
It was a gang.
这是一个帮派。
It was more of a druggy kind of…
这更像是一种药物……
I mean, Manhattan back then was kind of dangerous in the East Village.
我的意思是，当时的曼哈顿东村有点危险。
And they killed one of them on the hood of the car.
他们在汽车引擎盖上杀死了其中一人。
In front of our eyes, we saw it, and I said, “Do you see this?
在我们眼前，我们看到了它，我说：“你看到这个了吗？
Thank you, my God.” And then they resurrected him, they gave him mouth-to-mouth, and the guy was fine again.
谢谢你，我的上帝。”然后他们把他复活了，给他进行了口对口治疗，这个家伙又好了。
And we walked past, and we were not sure anymore what we were seeing.
我们走了过去，我们不再确定我们所看到的是什么。
And this was-
这是——
3:28:14 This was a very strong hallucination.
这是一种非常强烈的幻觉。
And then we saw a full-blown racial riot on 2nd Avenue.
然后我们在第二大道看到了一场全面的种族骚乱。
People were smashing in taxi windows, pulling the drivers out.
人们砸碎出租车窗户，把司机拉了出来。
It was like GTA.
就像 GTA 一样。
Grand Theft Auto?
侠盗猎车手？
3:28:31 Yeah.
是的。
Right, it was like that.
没错，就是这样。
3:28:32 And…
还有……
So most of this is basically hallucinating.
所以这大部分基本上都是幻觉。
I think so, yeah.
我想是的，是的。
3:28:36 And I have taken…
我已经采取了...
But it felt real.
但这感觉很真实。
It felt totally real.
感觉完全真实。
3:28:38 And so I was happy when this trip was over, because I thought I had gone insane, basically.
所以当这次旅行结束时我很高兴，因为我认为我基本上已经疯了。
I thought there was a switch in my brain that had been, like, yeah, something chemical.
我以为我的大脑中有一个开关，就像，是的，某种化学物质。
I thought I now have a chemical imbalance in my brain.
我想我的大脑现在出现了化学物质失衡。
I’m going to be crazy for the rest of my life.
我会疯狂一辈子。
I thought that.
我是这么想的。
But after about 10 hours, it suddenly got, you know, the effects wore off, and I became normal again.
但大约10个小时后，效果突然消失了，我又恢复正常了。
And I thought that was quite fascinating.
我认为这非常令人着迷。
So in hindsight, I thought it was a great experience, even though it was quite scary.
所以事后看来，我认为这是一次很棒的经历，尽管它很可怕。
But it also had moments of incredible perceptions.
但它也有令人难以置信的感受的时刻。
Like, I could see that the atoms are not rigid.
就像，我可以看到原子不是刚性的。
Obviously everything’s moving in our universe.
显然，我们宇宙中的一切都在移动。
Everything.
一切。
There’s nothing fixed, you know?
没有什么是固定的，你知道吗？
So I could see that.
所以我能看到这一点。
3:29:27 I could see that everything was basically alive, and that my previous perceptions of how the world is, is just my conditioned perception, and that the world was very different, and, you know, just how you look at it, it looks different, and…
我可以看到一切基本上都是活的，而我之前对世界的看法只是我条件性的看法，世界是非常不同的，而且，你知道，只是你如何看待它，它看起来就不同了，而且……
So it was freeing in a way?
那么它在某种程度上是自由的吗？
Yeah, totally freeing.
是的，完全自由。
3:29:45 Also, it was much stronger than all the LSD I’ve taken since.
而且，它比我之后服用的所有LSD都要强得多。
And I’ve taken high dosages, so I’m not even sure if that was LSD.
而且我服用了高剂量的药物，所以我什至不确定那是否是LSD。
There are also other compounds…
还有其他化合物...
3:29:56 that are quite rare, like DOM or whatever.
这是非常罕见的，比如 DOM 或其他什么。
Maybe it was something else.
也许是别的东西。
But then I also spoke to LSD experts by now, also for the book Tripped.
但后来我也与 LSD 专家进行了交谈，也是为了《绊倒》一书。
And it can happen that your first trip is much stronger than all the other trips, because your brain kind of reacts very strongly to it.
而且你的第一次旅行可能比所有其他旅行都要强烈得多，因为你的大脑对此反应非常强烈。
Because what happens in the brain is basically that the default mode network receives less energy, and other parts of the brain think more, communicate better.
因为大脑中发生的事情基本上是默认模式网络接收到的能量较少，而大脑的其他部分思考得更多，沟通得更好。
So if this happens for the first time, your brain maybe is totally surprised by this firework that’s going on, and then creates hallucinations, so it can somehow make sense of it.
因此，如果这种情况第一次发生，你的大脑可能会对正在发生的烟花感到完全惊讶，然后产生幻觉，这样它就能以某种方式理解它。
There are a lot of things firing, and then so you see things that maybe are not there.
有很多东西在燃烧，然后你就会看到一些可能不存在的东西。
But that’s not usual on an LSD trip.
但这在迷幻药之旅中并不常见。
3:30:41 I’ve never had such hallucinations afterwards again, you know?
从那以后我就再也没有出现过这样的幻觉了，你知道吗？
What’s the usual experience on LSD?
使用 LSD 的通常体验是怎样的？
It really depends on the dosage.
这实际上取决于剂量。
3:30:50 If you microdose, it’s just like drinking an espresso that lasts maybe for two or three hours in a very pleasant way, so you’re just slightly buzzed.
如果您服用微量剂量，就像喝一杯浓缩咖啡一样，可以以一种非常愉快的方式持续两到三个小时，所以您会感到轻微的嗡嗡声。
Is it visual artifacts, like…
是视觉伪影吗，比如……
No
否
color?
颜色？
Then you would take more.
那么你会采取更多。
3:31:05 Maybe if you take 50 micrograms, the colors become more intense.
如果服用 50 微克，颜色可能会变得更浓。
But if you take a microdose of 10 micrograms, nothing happens.
但如果你服用 10 微克的微剂量，就不会发生任何事情。
The trip starts with about 100 micrograms.
旅程开始时大约有 100 微克。
And then you could see maybe it would be…
然后你可以看到也许会是……
I took a swimming trip in Thailand in January, and I took about 200 micrograms, which is quite a lot.
我一月份去泰国游泳，摄入了大约200微克，这是相当多的。
Just because it was so beautiful on this island, and it was kind of, “Will it be more beautiful if I’m on LSD now?” And of course, every LSD trip also tells you about your life, like some things you didn’t understand.
只是因为这个岛上实在是太美丽了，就像是，“如果我现在吸食迷幻药，这里会更美丽吗？”当然，每一次LSD之旅也会告诉你关于你的生活，比如一些你不明白的事情。
Suddenly you see, “Oh, it’s like this.” It’s very good for, you know, reflecting on your life, but it’s also a lot of fun.
突然你看到：哦，是这样的。你知道，这对于反思你的生活非常有好处，但也很有趣。
So I swam for like…
所以我游泳了……
3:31:50 three hours through the ocean, which is something you usually don’t do, you know?
穿越海洋三个小时，这是你通常不会做的事情，你知道吗？
I like swimming, but after like 10 or 20 minutes, I go out.
我喜欢游泳，但大约10或20分钟后，我就出去了。
But I was swimming and swimming and…
但我一直在游啊游啊……
Yeah, for me, on psilocybin and ayahuasca, there’s an intensification of the beauty of the world around you.
是的，对我来说，裸盖菇素和死藤水可以增强你周围世界的美丽。
Right.
正确的。
Whether that’s nature, or whether that’s people, or whether that’s your own memories of your past, or maybe your imagination manifesting itself in different kinds of visuals.
无论是自然，还是人，或者是你自己对过去的记忆，或者也许是你在不同类型的视觉效果中表现出来的想象力。
3:32:11 You know, on ayahuasca, I saw dragons of different kinds, and they were just really beautiful.
你知道，在死藤水上，我看到了不同种类的龙，它们真的很漂亮。
And maybe I’ve never taken a heroic dose of psilocybin, but it was always, everything was just always so beautiful, and I was just grateful to be alive and grateful to be in this world and get to appreciate it in this most intense way.
也许我从来没有服用过大剂量的裸盖菇素，但它总是如此，一切总是那么美丽，我很感激自己还活着，很感激生活在这个世界上，并以这种最强烈的方式欣赏它。
There’s something about, like you said, you could see the individual atoms.
就像你说的，你可以看到单个原子。
3:32:49 There are certain ways to deconstruct or maybe to visualize or reinterpret, revisualize the world that makes you appreciate, “Holy shit, this is really, this is really awesome.
有一些方法可以解构，或者可视化或重新解释，重新可视化让你欣赏的世界，“天哪，这真的，这真的太棒了。
This is really special.” And that can only be done through the process of showing you a different version of it a little bit.
这真的很特别。”这只能通过向您展示它的一个不同版本的过程来完成。
I mean, when the Swiss pharmaceutical company Sandoz developed LSD in 1943, they were having to solve the big question: what is it good for?
我的意思是，当瑞士制药公司 Sandoz 于 1943 年开发 LSD 时，他们必须解决一个大问题：它有什么用？
3:33:28 Albert Hofmann, the chemist, he found it basically involuntarily, and he reported to the CEO, “I had very strong reactions in the brain.” So they set up an intoxication room.
化学家阿尔伯特·霍夫曼（Albert Hofmann）基本上是不由自主地发现了这一点，他向首席执行官报告说：“我的大脑有非常强烈的反应。”于是他们设立了一个毒酒室。
I found the documents about this intoxication room in the Novartis archive when I researched Tripped because Novartis bought Sandoz in the 90s.
我在研究 Tripped 时在诺华档案中找到了关于这个毒药室的文件，因为诺华在 90 年代收购了山德士。
So all the LSD stuff is in the Novartis archive.
所以所有LSD的东西都在诺华档案里。
And this intoxication room, I always think, is kind of interesting to imagine.
我总觉得这个醉人的房间想象起来很有趣。
This was 1943; there’s a World War going on everywhere in Europe, except in Switzerland, which is a neutral country.
那是 1943 年；欧洲各地都在发生世界大战，除了瑞士，它是一个中立国家。
But Basel, where the LSD was found, is like a stone’s throw from the German border, so you actually hear the war going on.
但发现 LSD 的巴塞尔距德国边境仅一箭之遥，因此你可以实际听到战争的声音。
3:34:17 And so they created a nice room within the company, and then all the employees voluntarily could go and take LSD.
于是他们在公司内部开辟了一个很好的房间，然后所有的员工都自愿去服用LSD。
So they were the first people to take LSD, and they had no idea that there was, at one point, you know, MKUltra.
所以他们是第一批服用 LSD 的人，而且他们一度不知道有 MKUltra。
They were just trying out something that one of their guys had developed.
他们只是在尝试他们的一个人开发的东西。
And I read through all these reports, and they all had a great experience.
我通读了所有这些报告，他们都有很好的体验。
They were sitting in a nice chair, and they looked outside the window, and they were reporting stuff like, “I just had to laugh the whole time.
他们坐在一张漂亮的椅子上，看着窗外，他们在报告这样的事情：“我一直在笑。
I felt so good.
我感觉很好。
I realized about my life.” It kind of created in them the feeling like a heightened sense of sensitivity and a feeling that this is how life should feel.
我意识到了我的人生。”这让他们产生了一种高度敏感的感觉，以及一种生活应该如此的感觉。
3:35:05 So, the CEO, Arthur Stoll, he was really trying to figure out what he could market it for, because he thought maybe this is a game changer in mental health.
因此，首席执行官亚瑟·斯托尔（Arthur Stoll）确实想弄清楚他可以将其推销给什么用途，因为他认为这可能会改变心理健康领域的游戏规则。
Because this was before antidepressants, before antipsychotics, and it was in the middle of World War II, which had created already millions of traumatized people.
因为那是在抗抑郁药、抗精神病药出现之前，而且当时正值第二次世界大战中期，这场战争已经造成了数以百万计的人受到创伤。
How do you treat these people?
你如何对待这些人？
So they thought LSD could be really a big, big, big thing.
所以他们认为LSD可能真的是一件非常非常大的事情。
And I mean, I just told you when I first took LSD, and I somehow was interested in LSD, but I never thought I would write a book about it.
我的意思是，我刚刚告诉过你，当我第一次服用 LSD 时，我对 LSD 感兴趣，但我从未想过我会写一本关于它的书。
I just used it once in a while when I wanted to understand something about my life or just enjoy a day in the ocean.
当我想了解我的生活或只是在海洋中享受一天时，我只是偶尔使用它。
3:35:50 But I read a study that microdoses of LSD, at one point, help against Alzheimer’s, and my mother has Alzheimer’s.
但我读到一项研究表明，微剂量的 LSD 在某种程度上有助于对抗阿尔茨海默氏症，而我的母亲患有阿尔茨海默氏症。
So I discussed this with my father who takes care of my mother, and this was an academic study.
所以我和照顾我母亲的父亲讨论了这个问题，这是一个学术研究。
I discussed this also with a leading Alzheimer’s expert that I interviewed for Tripped, and he’s like, “Wow, this is amazing.” Because LSD interacts with the very same receptors, the 5-HT2A receptors in the brain, that LSD interacts with those receptors and Alzheimer destroys those receptors.
我还与一位著名的阿尔茨海默氏症专家讨论了这个问题，我采访了 Tripped，他说，“哇，这太棒了。”因为 LSD 与大脑中的 5-HT2A 受体相互作用，LSD 与这些受体相互作用，而阿尔茨海默病会破坏这些受体。
So LSD basically does the opposite that Alzheimer does.
因此，LSD 的作用基本上与阿尔茨海默病相反。
And I discussed this with my father and he said, “So why can’t I buy LSD in the pharmacy if it’s so good?” You know?
我和父亲讨论了这个问题，他说：“既然 LSD 这么好，我为什么不能在药店买到呢？”你知道？
He was a judge before.
他以前是一名法官。
He actually put people in prison for drugs.
他实际上把因毒品而入狱的人。
3:36:42 So he said, “You better bring me the story.” So I did a kind of a research loop.
所以他说：“你最好把这个故事带给我。”所以我做了一种研究循环。
This is the book Tripped.
这就是《绊倒》这本书。
Then I came back to him in the end with the true story of why LSD has been made illegal, and that is quite fascinating because the Swiss CEO, Stoll, he had learned biochemistry.
然后我最后向他讲述了为什么迷幻药被定为非法的真实故事，这非常有趣，因为瑞士首席执行官斯托尔学过生物化学。
This is very nerdy, but I think it’s quite interesting.
这很书呆子气，但我认为这很有趣。
He had learned biochemistry from the Jewish German god of biochemistry, Willstätter.
他向犹太德国生物化学之神威尔施塔特学习了生物化学。
Richard Willstätter was a Nobel Prize winner for chemistry, and his work was he would extract the potent alkaloids from so-called poisonous plants and make, you know, poison.
理查德·威尔施塔特 (Richard Willstätter) 是诺贝尔化学奖获得者，他的工作是从所谓的有毒植物中提取有效的生物碱，并制造毒药。
Paracelsus taught us it’s the dosage that makes the poison, you know?
帕拉塞尔苏斯告诉我们，毒药是由剂量决定的，你知道吗？
3:37:31 If you take too much of a potent alkaloid, maybe it’s a poison, but if you extract a potent alkaloid, maybe you could turn it into a medicine.
如果你服用了太多强效生物碱，也许它是一种毒药，但如果你提取了一种强效生物碱，也许你可以把它变成一种药物。
So Stoll learned this from Willstätter, and there was another guy that was learning from Willstätter, Richard Kuhn.
所以斯托尔从威尔施塔特那里学到了这一点，还有另一个人理查德·库恩也在向威尔施塔特学习。
So it was Kuhn and Stoll.
库恩和斯托尔就是这样。
Those were the two students of Willstätter, and Stoll left and became the CEO of Sandoz and developed the pharmaceutical branch of Sandoz.
那是威尔斯塔特的两名学生，斯托尔离开后成为山德士的首席执行官，并发展了山德士的制药部门。
And Kuhn became Hitler’s leading biochemist and was responsible in finding a truth drug and also developing nerve gas.
库恩成为希特勒的首席生物化学家，负责寻找真正的药物并开发神经毒气。
So the two guys, Kuhn and Stoll, stayed friends also when the Nazis took power.
因此，库恩和斯托尔这两个人在纳粹掌权后仍然是朋友。
I researched the papers of Stoll in the archive, and in the ’20s, he would communicate all the ergot research.
我在档案中研究了斯托尔的论文，在 20 年代，他会传播所有麦角研究。
3:38:21 LSD is an ergot product.
LSD 是一种麦角产品。
Ergot is a fungus that grows on rye.
麦角是一种生长在黑麦上的真菌。
He would communicate all this with Kuhn, and Kuhn would come to the Sandoz lab, and they did experiments together.
他会与库恩沟通所有这些，库恩会来到山德士实验室，他们一起做实验。
And then in ’43, Kuhn was, you know, a hardcore Nazi scientist, and especially looking for the truth drug at the time.
然后在 43 年，库恩是一名铁杆纳粹科学家，当时特别是在寻找真相药物。
I was looking through the archive, I wanted to find the connection that, you know, Stoll also sent LSD to Kuhn, because when I was researching for Blitzed in Dachau, I had found that the SS had done, in the concentration camp of Dachau, experiments with mescaline and another hallucinogenic substance which was not named.
我在翻阅档案，我想找到其中的联系，你知道，斯托尔也向库恩发送了迷幻剂，因为当我在达豪的闪电战中进行研究时，我发现党卫军在达豪集中营进行了麦司卡林和另一种未命名的致幻物质的实验。
And mescaline has the problem…
麦司卡林有问题......
3:39:06 The truth drug idea is I give you something without you noticing it, like something that doesn’t smell or doesn’t taste like anything, and then after like half an hour, I know that something’s working in your brain and you become insecure because suddenly something’s working in your brain, and I can play with that situation, and therefore extract all the secrets from you because it’s a power.
真正的毒品想法是，我在你没有注意到的情况下给你一些东西，比如闻起来或尝起来都不像的东西，然后大约半小时后，我知道你的大脑中有东西在起作用，你会变得不安全，因为突然有东西在你的大脑中起作用，我可以玩弄这种情况，因此从你身上提取所有秘密，因为它是一种力量。
I’m suddenly above you because I know something about you that you don’t know.
我突然在你之上，因为我了解你一些你不知道的事情。
That was the idea.
这就是我的想法。
The problem with mescaline was it has a bitter taste and it’s kind of hard to make it.
麦司卡林的问题是它有苦味，而且很难制造。
And LSD is very easy to make.
而且 LSD 很容易制作。
Not very easy, but it’s quite easy.
不是很容易，但也很容易。
And LSD is odorless and tasteless.
LSD无臭无味。
So I was trying to…
所以我试图……
3:39:47 I somehow had the notion that LSD has a Nazi past, you know, which is something that no one ever thinks about.
不知何故，我有一种观念，即迷幻剂有纳粹的过去，你知道，这是没有人想到的事情。
LSD is like the hippie drug, right?
LSD 就像嬉皮士毒品，对吧？
It’s a drug of the peace people.
这是和平人士的药物。
But I wanted to see all the papers of the CEO, of Stoll.
但我想看看斯托尔首席执行官的所有文件。
And the archivist, he already knew, like he was the Swiss archivist.
而档案管理员，他已经认识了，就像他是瑞士档案管理员一样。
And this is not a public archive.
这不是公共档案。
In a public archive you basically, like the National Archives of the United States, you see what’s there, you have the right to see it, freedom of information.
在公共档案馆中，基本上，就像美国国家档案馆一样，您可以看到那里的内容，您有权查看它，信息自由。
But a company archive, like the Novartis archive, the archivist can just say, “No,” you know, “I can’t find this right…” You know, you’re basically at his mercy.
但对于公司档案，比如诺华档案，档案保管员只能说，“不，”你知道，“我找不到这个……”你知道，你基本上任由他摆布。
So I bribed him with LSD because he didn’t want to show me the Stoll papers.
所以我用LSD贿赂了他，因为他不想给我看斯托尔文件。
3:40:31 And I said to him, just to distract him, I said, “Did you ever, have you ever seen LSD?” And he’s like, “No.
我对他说，为了分散他的注意力，我说：“你曾经、你见过LSD吗？”他说：“不。
Why?
为什么？
How would I see it?” And I said, “Well, I have some here.” And I had some, I just had gotten it from a friend.
我怎么会看到它呢？”我说：“好吧，我这里有一些。”我有一些，我刚从朋友那里得到的。
What does LSD look like?
LSD 是什么样的？
3:40:45 Tabs or…
选项卡或...
Yeah, a tab.
是的，一个标签。
3:40:47 I had a paper.
我有一张纸。
And the funny thing about, yeah, these are different, you know, different designs.
有趣的是，是的，这些是不同的，你知道，不同的设计。
Oh, so and you can put it on your tongue?
哦，那么你可以把它放在舌头上吗？
3:40:54 Is that how people usually take it?
人们通常就是这么认为的吗？
Right.
正确的。
3:40:57 Just, yeah.
只是，是的。
Then you take it like that.
然后你就这样接受吧。
And the one I had was given to me by a Swiss friend and it had…
我拥有的那个是一位瑞士朋友送给我的，它有……
Like here you see certain prints on it.
就像在这里你可以看到上面有某些印刷品。
Uh…
呃……
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
And it had the print of the old logo of Sandoz from the 40s.
上面印有 40 年代 Sandoz 的旧标志。
3:41:06 So the guys who make this illegal LSD in Basel, in some kind of lab, they know where it comes from.
所以那些在巴塞尔的某个实验室里制造这种非法LSD的人，他们知道它来自哪里。
So they made like a joke to make like the old logo of Sandoz.
所以他们像玩笑一样制作了山德士的旧标志。
I showed this to the archivist and he said, “This has the old logo of our company.” I said, “Well, it was made by your company.” He said, “I know this, but it’s not…
我把这个给档案管理员看，他说：“这有我们公司的旧标志。”我说：“嗯，是你们公司做的。”他说：“我知道这一点，但事实并非如此……”
This is very interesting actually.” And I said, “I’m going to gift you one of these trips now.” And he said, “Wow, you really, you would do this?” And I said, “You can archive it.” And he’s like, “Ha-ha-ha.” And then he actually took one, and then the ice broke.
这实际上非常有趣。”我说：“我现在就送你一次这样的旅行作为礼物。”他说：“哇，你真的会这么做吗？”我说：“你可以把它存档。”然后他就说：“哈哈哈。”然后他真的拿了一个，然后坚冰就破了。
That’s great.
那太棒了。
And then he said, “Okay, I’m going to show you now the correspondence of Stoll, our CEO.
然后他说：“好吧，我现在给你看我们首席执行官斯托尔的信件。
3:41:42 It’s no problem.” And he just went to the next room and he looked for like 10 minutes, and then he brought me these boxes.
没问题。”他就去了隔壁房间，看了大约 10 分钟，然后给我带来了这些盒子。
And then I saw actually the correspondence between Stoll and Kuhn, between the Swiss CEO and the German Nazi scientist, what they were talking about.
然后我实际上看到了斯托尔和库恩之间、瑞士首席执行官和德国纳粹科学家之间的通信，他们在谈论什么。
And then I found a smoking gun: October 1943.
然后我发现了确凿的证据：1943 年 10 月。
Kuhn acknowledges that he receives half a gram of ergotamine, which is the precursor drug to LSD.
库恩承认他服用了半克麦角胺，这是LSD的前体药物。
And so it’s highly likely that the Nazis used LSD together with mescaline in Dachau.
因此，纳粹很有可能在达豪集中使用LSD和麦司卡林。
And when the Americans liberated the Dachau camp, they had a special unit called Alsos with them.
当美国人解放达豪集中营时，他们身边有一支名为艾索斯的特殊部队。
3:42:28 And Alsos’ job was to find German scientists and kind of interview them, get their knowledge for the nuclear program mostly, but also for biochemical weapons.
阿尔索斯的工作是找到德国科学家并采访他们，了解他们主要关于核计划的知识，但也有关于生化武器的知识。
And one of the first persons they interrogated was Richard Kuhn, and Richard Kuhn immediately collaborated because he didn’t want to go to the Nuremberg trial.
他们审讯的第一批人之一是理查德·库恩，理查德·库恩立即配合，因为他不想参加纽伦堡审判。
He wanted to continue his career actually.
他实际上想继续他的职业生涯。
He was an opportunist, so I guess his Nazi convictions were not so strong after all, because he also liked the Americans.
他是一个机会主义者，所以我猜他的纳粹信念毕竟没有那么强烈，因为他也喜欢美国人。
So he told the Americans immediately about LSD.
于是他立即向美国人介绍了LSD。
And the next day, a very high general flew from the States to Frankfurt, went to Heidelberg, spoke to Kuhn again.
第二天，一位高级将军从美国飞到法兰克福，再到海德堡，再次与库恩交谈。
3:43:06 He then took off his uniform and went in civil clothing to Basel, because Switzerland is neutral, and received the first LSD from Stoll’s son.
然后他脱下制服，穿着便服前往巴塞尔，因为瑞士是中立国家，并从斯托尔的儿子那里得到了第一支LSD。
So the American general had LSD.
所以这位美国将军服用了LSD。
This was in ’45 in the summer.
那是 45 年夏天。
And then the American military started to examine LSD.
然后美国军方开始研究LSD。
Could LSD be the truth drug?
LSD 可能是真正的药物吗？
Because if the Nazis think so, maybe it’s true, you know, because the Nazis were cutting-edge scientists, as evil as they were.
因为如果纳粹这么认为，也许这是真的，你知道，因为纳粹是尖端科学家，尽管他们很邪恶。
In Dachau, this was presumably used for the different experimentation that was done.
在达豪，这可能被用于进行不同的实验。
Well, I read one report from a guy who was an inmate, and he received it in coffee, and he had a full-blown psychedelic trip.
嗯，我读到了一个囚犯的一份报告，他在咖啡中收到了报告，然后他进行了一次全面的迷幻之旅。
3:43:40 And he had this SS guy who was asking him questions, and the guy had such a great trip.
他有一个党卫军人员向他询问问题，那家伙的旅行非常愉快。
I would always imagine you’d have a terrible trip in a concentration camp, but he was seeing fractals and colors, and he could see that there was something bigger than these Nazis, and there was something bigger than the concentration camp.
我总是想象你在集中营里会有一次可怕的旅行，但他看到了分形和颜色，他可以看到有比这些纳粹更大的东西，有比集中营更大的东西。
He only said it was so horrible when the trip ended and he became sober again and was just an inmate again in the concentration camp.
他只说，当旅行结束后，他又清醒了，又成了集中营里的囚犯，这太可怕了。
I mean, one of the things you get from books like Man’s Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl is that in a concentration camp, the slightest good things are so rich of…
我的意思是，你从维克托·弗兰克尔的《人类寻找意义》等书中得到的一件事是，在集中营里，哪怕是最微小的美好事物都充满了……
Right.
对。
…feeling.
…感觉。
3:44:29 You just get…
你只需得到...
So, I would actually expect to have incredible trips there because you’re just grateful for anything positive, anything positive.
所以，我实际上希望在那里有令人难以置信的旅行，因为你会对任何积极的事情心存感激。
Yeah, I didn’t, I didn’t think about that.
是的，我没有，我没有考虑过这一点。
It becomes intensified.
它变得愈演愈烈。
Makes sense.
有道理。
But from the perspective of the Nazis, they’re trying to develop the truth drug.
但从纳粹的角度来看，他们正在试图开发真相药物。
They miserably failed because LSD…
他们悲惨地失败了，因为LSD……
3:44:47 Is not the truth drug.
并非真药。
LSD maybe leads you closer to your own truth, because when suddenly the default mode network receives less energy and other parts of the brain think more, and the neuroplasticity of the brain is enhanced and stimulated, you might understand something about your life.
LSD也许会让你更接近自己的真相，因为当默认模式网络突然接收到更少的能量而大脑的其他部分思考更多时，大脑的神经可塑性得到增强和刺激，你可能会了解一些关于你的生活的事情。
You might not, you know.
你可能不会，你知道。
I mean, LSD doesn’t necessarily turn you into a more knowledgeable person.
我的意思是，LSD 并不一定会让你变得更有知识。
You could also focus that on your Orthodox belief system.
您也可以将其重点放在您的东正教信仰体系上。
But many people realize different things, have different ideas.
但许多人认识不同的事情，有不同的想法。
So it doesn’t work as this conditioning drug.
所以它不能起到这种调理药物的作用。
But also, the CIA then took over the LSD experiments that the U.S. military took over from the SS.
而且，中央情报局随后接管了美国军方从党卫军手中接管的LSD实验。
So now it’s in CIA hands.
所以现在它在中央情报局手中。
3:45:37 In 1947, the Central Intelligence Agency was founded because America didn’t have a Central Intelligence Agency before.
1947年，美国中央情报局成立，因为美国之前没有中央情报局。
They had military agencies like OSS.
他们有像战略情报局这样的军事机构。
Now they have the CIA, and Dulles, the first director, says, “Brain warfare is going on now between the Soviet Union and us.
现在他们有了中央情报局，第一任局长杜勒斯说：“苏联和我们之间现在正在进行脑战。
This is Cold War.
这就是冷战。
We have to…” You know, maybe they are using something against us.
我们必须……”你知道，也许他们正在利用某些东西来对付我们。
We have to be really on our, you know, we have to be prepared for the brain warfare, ’cause communism is a propagandistic system.
我们必须真正做好准备，你知道，我们必须为脑战做好准备，因为共产主义是一个宣传系统。
So they were always either really afraid or just pretending to be afraid the Soviet Union would develop the truth drug quicker than them.
所以他们总是要么真的害怕，要么只是假装害怕苏联会比他们更快地开发出真相药物。
So the LSD truth drug program, which was labeled MKULTRA, the infamous MKULTRA, is a mind control program.
所以LSD真相药物程序，被标记为MKULTRA，臭名昭著的MKULTRA，是一个精神控制程序。
I mean, it is, and LSD played a big part in it.
我的意思是，确实如此，LSD 在其中发挥了重要作用。
It’s a deeply illegal one.
这是一种严重违法的行为。
It certainly…
它当然……
3:46:35 I mean, it was never approved by Congress or anything like that.
我的意思是，它从未得到国会或类似机构的批准。
Yeah.
是的。
3:46:39 It’s probably deeply unethical, maybe one of the more un-American, unethical things done in recent times.
这可能是非常不道德的，也许是近年来所做的最不美国、最不道德的事情之一。
It’s certainly unethical.
这当然是不道德的。
3:46:48 It continues the Nazi human experiments.
它继续纳粹的人体实验。
Right.
正确的。
That’s what the CIA did.
这就是中央情报局所做的。
It’s continuing one of the worst aspects of what the Nazis were doing.
它继续是纳粹所做的最糟糕的事情之一。
3:46:53 Defeated the Nazis and carried the flag forward.
击败纳粹并高举旗帜前进。
It’s just dark.
天很黑。
And this is basically the reason why LSD at one point became illegal, because it did not get the chance.
这基本上就是LSD一度成为非法的原因，因为它没有机会。
3:47:04 Stoll still wanted to put it on the market, but Sidney Gottlieb, the head of MKULTRA, he really didn’t want LSD to be on the market.
斯托尔仍然想将其投放市场，但 MKULTRA 的负责人西德尼·戈特利布 (Sidney Gottlieb) 实在不希望 LSD 投放市场。
He didn’t want it because he thought it’s not good or dangerous for anybody, he just wanted to control LSD.
他不想要它，因为他认为这对任何人都没有好处或危险，他只是想控制LSD。
He wanted LSD to be his so he could use it for MKULTRA, for experiments.
他希望 LSD 成为他的，这样他就可以将它用于 MKULTRA 进行实验。
But he couldn’t really stop.
但他实在停不下来。
There was also legit LSD research always going on until it was prohibited in 1966.
合法的 LSD 研究一直在进行，直到 1966 年被禁止。
There was legit LSD research done in universities which came to all kinds of conclusions.
大学里进行了合法的迷幻药研究，得出了各种各样的结论。
3:47:46 But the decisive thing was a visit by Gottlieb in the office of Stoll in Basel where he basically says to Stoll, he comes with a suitcase with 240,000 US dollars to buy the world’s supply of LSD, because he has the information from the American ambassador.
但决定性的事情是戈特利布拜访了斯托尔位于巴塞尔的办公室，他基本上对斯托尔说，他带着一个装有24万美元的手提箱来购买全球供应的LSD，因为他从美国大使那里得到了信息。
He said, “I think we think by now Sandoz has produced 400 kilograms of LSD,” so that was the price for this 400.
他说，“我想我们认为山德士现在已经生产了 400 公斤 LSD”，这就是这 400 公斤的价格。
And Stoll said, “No, actually we have produced only 400 grams.
斯托尔说：“不，实际上我们只生产了 400 克。
But I’ll sell everything to you, of course.” I mean, because the pressure that he received from the CIA was, because the CIA and the FDA, they’re quite friendly organizations.
但我当然会把所有东西都卖给你。”我的意思是，因为他从中央情报局收到的压力是，因为中央情报局和食品和药物管理局，他们是非常友好的组织。
So the CIA has a certain influence on the FDA, at least back then, you know?
所以CIA对FDA有一定的影响力，至少在当时是这样，你知道吗？
3:48:40 So the pressure was if you want to put your medicines on the market, which is, of course, the biggest market in the world, and Sandoz, I’m sure you want to thrive as a pharmaceutical company, then LSD is not going to be one of these products.
所以压力是，如果你想把你的药品投放市场，这当然是世界上最大的市场，而山德士，我相信你想作为一家制药公司蓬勃发展，那么 LSD 不会成为这些产品之一。
And Stoll basically betrayed LSD.
斯托尔基本上背叛了LSD。
So he said okay, and LSD was only distributed as a research drug.
所以他说好吧，LSD 仅作为研究药物分发。
It was never sold by the company.
该公司从未出售过它。
So researchers could actually write to Sandoz, “I’m doing this and this test, and I’m a neuroscientist, I need LSD,” and then they would receive it.
因此，研究人员实际上可以写信给山德士，“我正在做这个和这个测试，我是一名神经科学家，我需要 LSD”，然后他们就会收到它。
But mostly what happened to the LSD was it went into the CIA’s hands, and then it was used in MKULTRA.
但 LSD 主要发生的事情是它落入了 CIA 的手中，然后被用于 MKULTRA。
But then it spilled out obviously, because one of the guinea pigs was Ken Kesey.
但后来事情显然就泄露了出来，因为其中一只小白鼠就是肯·凯西。
3:49:27 He received 75 US dollars for taking LSD for the CIA, and he was working in Menlo Park in a psychiatric ward.
他因为中央情报局服用LSD而获得75美元报酬，当时他在门洛帕克的一家精神病房工作。
And on LSD, he basically had the idea to write One Flew over the Cuckoo’s Nest.
在LSD的作用下，他基本上产生了写《飞越疯人院》的想法。
He understood that these people maybe are not crazy.
他明白，这些人也许并没有疯。
It’s just a different way of seeing.
这只是一种不同的看待方式。
That’s like an LSD revelation.
这就像迷幻剂的启示。
These are not bad, crazy people.
这些人都不是坏人，都是疯狂的人。
They just see the world differently, because that neuroplasticity kind of leads you away from one way of thinking.
他们只是以不同的方式看待世界，因为神经可塑性会让你远离一种思维方式。
You realize that there are different ways.
您意识到有不同的方法。
So it does, I would say, the tendency of LSD is more to increase…
所以，我想说的是，LSD 的趋势更多的是增加……
Empathy?
同理心？
3:50:06 That kind of thing?
那种事？
…empathy, diversity, all these kinds of things.
……同理心、多样性，所有这些。
So, because you mentioned the effect of LSD on you as a writer, that it at least changed the way you write.
所以，因为你提到LSD对你作为作家的影响，它至少改变了你的写作方式。
Well, I mean, the book Tripped is a book where I come back with that story to my father, and then my father decides to give LSD to my mother.
嗯，我的意思是，在《绊倒》这本书中，我把这个故事告诉了我父亲，然后我父亲决定给我母亲服用LSD。
3:50:19 And we did do the LSD, the three of us, on Christmas.
我们三个人在圣诞节确实吸了迷幻药。
And we did mushrooms on Mother’s Day.
我们在母亲节做了蘑菇。
And whenever my mother takes LSD, and Alzheimer’s is a horrible disease, obviously.
每当我母亲服用LSD时，阿尔茨海默氏症显然是一种可怕的疾病。
For example, on Mother’s Day, there was the newspaper lying on the balcony.
例如，母亲节那天，阳台上放着报纸。
We were sitting in the sun, and she was on mushrooms.
我们坐在阳光下，她则在吃蘑菇。
It’s just a microdose, you know?
这只是微剂量，你知道吗？
It’s not that you have a trip, but you have that stimulation of your brain.
并不是说你有一次旅行，而是你有对大脑的刺激。
That’s what you have.
这就是你所拥有的。
Even her brain, attacked by Alzheimer’s, reacted stronger than my father’s.
甚至她的大脑受到阿尔茨海默氏症的攻击，反应也比我父亲的更强。
3:51:00 He always says, “I never feel anything from a microdose.” And you’re not supposed to feel anything, but my mother suddenly picked up the newspaper, which she hadn’t looked at for a year.
他总是说：“我从来没有感受到微剂量的任何东西。”你不应该有任何感觉，但我母亲突然拿起了那张她已经一年没看的报纸了。
So on mushroom microdoses, she picks up the newspaper and starts reading the headline to us, which was about the Ukraine war.
因此，谈到蘑菇微剂量时，她拿起报纸，开始给我们读标题，内容是关于乌克兰战争的。
She’d never heard about the Ukraine war.
她从未听说过乌克兰战争。
So when she, she had problems pronouncing the word Ukraine, because that was a new word for her, because she hadn’t been part of the news cycle in about a year.
因此，当她发音“乌克兰”这个词时，她遇到了问题，因为这对她来说是一个新词，因为她已经大约一年没有出现在新闻周期中了。
And this was because of the mushroom microdose.
这是因为蘑菇的微剂量。
So this book, how did it change my writing?
那么这本书是如何改变我的写作的呢？
On an emotional level, taking LSD and then writing about LSD changed something in my family.
在情感层面上，服用LSD并写下有关LSD的文章改变了我的家庭。
It improved the health of my mother that made me very happy, of course, very satisfied, you know?
它改善了我母亲的健康，这让我很高兴，当然也很满足，你知道吗？
Yeah, there’s a deep personal connection, but I even mean on Ken Kesey’s side, like…
是的，有很深的个人联系，但我什至是指肯·凯西那边，比如……
I know what you mean.
我知道你的意思。
I mean, what does it do?
我的意思是，它有什么作用？
3:52:03 Like, writing, I don’t know.
比如写作，我不知道。
Again, me as a fan of writing, it feels like writing is suffering.
再说一遍，我作为一个写作爱好者，感觉写作是一种痛苦。
When I see these great writers in history talk about writing, it seems like it’s really hard, it’s a kind of torture.
当我看到历史上这些伟大的作家谈论写作时，我觉得写作真的很难，这是一种折磨。
You know, Hemingway, and you have the Kerouac stories that it just kind of flows out of you.
你知道，海明威，你有凯鲁亚克的故事，它只是从你身上流淌出来。
But a lot of times it’s really disciplined, day after day, you’re really digging and digging.
但很多时候，它确实是有纪律的，日复一日，你真的在挖掘和挖掘。
And so it’s interesting what that looks like under the different supplements, right?
不同补充剂下的情况很有趣，对吗？
3:52:39 Stephen King famously, I mean, there’s a lot of people, you know, they go to the drugs, to the alcohol.
斯蒂芬·金有句名言，我的意思是，有很多人，你知道，他们吸毒、酗酒。
You have Hunter S.
你有亨特S。
Thompson who, when given the option, just says yes to all of it.
当汤普森有选择的时候，他只是对所有这些都说“是”。
And the mind is a weird thing.
头脑是一个奇怪的东西。
And a lot of writers talk about, like, they’re not really developing the ideas, they’re plugging into some…
很多作家都在谈论，比如，他们并没有真正发展这些想法，他们只是在融入一些……
They’re channeling- …
他们正在引导——……
a voice from somewhere else.
从别处传来的声音。
And- …
还有——
with psychedelics, that’s certainly, it feels like you’re modifying the channel or you’re expanding the channel- …or you’re directing the channel to a different direction.
对于迷幻剂，这是肯定的，感觉就像你正在修改通道或者你正在扩展通道......或者你正在将通道引导到不同的方向。
That’s why I asked.
这就是我问的原因。
I think for me, writing has two important parts, and one of them is the actual writing part, and that’s the painful part that you talk about.
我认为对我来说，写作有两个重要的部分，其中之一是实际的写作部分，这就是你所说的痛苦的部分。
3:53:18 It’s basically discipline, focus.
基本上就是纪律、专注。
It becomes harder and harder to focus because of the telephone.
由于电话的存在，我们变得越来越难以集中注意力。
Yeah, distractions.
是的，干扰。
There’s a place in Switzerland, The Nietzsche House.
瑞士有一个地方，尼采故居。
3:53:43 I go there as much as I can to write.
我尽可能多地去那里写作。
It’s in Sils Maria, it’s quite high up.
它在锡尔斯玛丽亚（Sils Maria），相当高。
Nietzsche went there every summer from 1882 to 1888, with the exception of 1887.
从 1882 年到 1888 年，尼采每年夏天都会去那里，1887 年除外。
He didn’t go that summer, I don’t know why.
那年夏天他没有去，我不知道为什么。
He stayed there for three months and wrote most of his work.
他在那里呆了三个月并写下了大部分作品。
In that room.
就在那个房间里。
And that room is still there, and his desk is still there.
那个房间还在，他的办公桌还在。
You can rent rooms in that Nietzsche House, and I rent.
你可以在尼采故居租房间，我也租。
It’s great.
这很棒。
I do this as often as I can, and only there am I able to switch off the phone.
我尽可能经常这样做，只有这样我才能关掉手机。
I don’t even switch it on.
我什至不打开它。
I’m like a soldier.
我就像一名士兵。
I’m in the Nietzsche House.
我在尼采故居。
Also, the Nietzsche House is magical, so it gives you…
此外，尼采之家很神奇，所以它给你......
I would never take drugs in the Nietzsche House, because it would disturb that clarity that is in that house.
我绝不会在尼采之家吸毒，因为这会扰乱那房子里的清晰度。
3:54:33 Nietzsche wrote Zarathustra and…
尼采写了《查拉图斯特拉》和……
You can sense his presence a little bit?
你能感觉到他的存在吗？
Yeah, I speak to him quite a bit.
是的，我和他聊了很多。
3:54:39 His door is always open.
他的门总是开着的。
Is he an asshole?
他是个混蛋吗？
3:54:43 Is he a nice guy?
他是个好人吗？
No, he’s a nice guy.
不，他是个好人。
Nice guy.
好人。
His room, it cannot be rented.
他的房间，不能出租。
3:54:46 It’s always open.
它总是开放的。
It’s like a museum-type room.
这就像一个博物馆类型的房间。
I never thought of him as an asshole.
我从没想过他是个混蛋。
I mean, he’s a total weirdo, obviously.
我的意思是，显然他是个十足的怪人。
He had issues, like, struggled getting laid.
他有一些问题，比如很难上床。
Yeah, I think he had a lot of problems.
是的，我认为他有很多问题。
That’s one of them.
这是其中之一。
3:55:04 But he had a lot of good qualities too.
但他也有很多好的品质。
But he’s also part of Stoned Sapiens, because he did experiment with drugs there, and he writes about it.
但他也是 Stoned Sapiens 的一员，因为他在那里进行了药物实验，并撰写了相关文章。
3:55:07 It’s very hard to find, but in the Nietzsche House, I found a book on Nietzsche’s medical history, and he takes quite a bit of hashish; he smokes.
很难找，但在尼采之家，我发现了一本关于尼采病史的书，他吸了相当多的大麻；他抽烟。
Is it to help?
是来帮忙的吗？
Does it help with the stomach issues or whatever?
它对胃病或其他问题有帮助吗？
3:55:24 Or is it?
或者是吗？
No, he’s interested in what happens in the brain, and this…
不，他对大脑中发生的事情感兴趣，而这个……
Oh, interesting.
哦，有趣。
this comes back to your question: How did the drugs change my writing?
这又回到了你的问题：药物如何改变了我的写作？
3:55:28 Well, first of all, it’s this discipline.
嗯，首先，这是这个学科。
I can do it up in the Nietzsche House.
我可以在尼采故居做这件事。
I can also do it sometimes in Berlin.
有时我在柏林也可以这样做。
It’s just sitting there, trying to focus and writing.
它只是坐在那里，努力集中注意力并写作。
But what you need, of course, is the inspirational part.
但当然，你需要的是鼓舞人心的部分。
LSD helped me with just the first trip to realize that it’s not all black and white.
LSD帮助我在第一次旅行中意识到事情并不全是黑白的。
The world’s quite colorful, and there’s like the abyss, and there’s also the horror.
世界是丰富多彩的，有深渊，也有恐怖。
I was a happy-go-lucky kid, you know.
你知道，我是一个无忧无虑的孩子。
I never thought that the world is so deep as I understand it now.
我从来没有想过这个世界有我现在所理解的那么深奥。
So the LSD makes the world deeper.
所以LSD让世界变得更加深刻。
So I think for me to understand the world better, to understand myself better, it improved my writing, but I would not write on LSD.
所以我认为对我来说，更好地了解世界，更好地了解自己，这提高了我的写作水平，但我不会用LSD来写作。
3:56:19 Because on LSD, you want to walk in the forest or you want to go up the mountain.
因为服用 LSD 后，你会想要在森林里散步，或者想要上山。
That’s what I like.
这就是我喜欢的。
I would never sit in front of the ugly computer with a stupid screen and write, you know.
我永远不会坐在那台带有愚蠢屏幕的丑陋电脑前写作，你知道。
Maybe I would lie in the mountains with a notebook and kind of write poetic lines.
也许我会带着笔记本躺在山上，写下诗句。
And that could be done on LSD.
这可以通过迷幻药来实现。
Because when I was researching Stoned Sapiens, I did one LSD trip from the Nietzsche House.
因为当我研究石头智人时，我在尼采故居进行了一次LSD之旅。
I went quite high up in the mountains on LSD, and I just thought about the book and kind of looked at the different chapters, just did work together, like, kind of like macro without taking too many notes, just kind of letting it play out in my mind.
我服用 LSD 去了很高的山上，我只是想着这本书，看看不同的章节，只是一起工作，就像，有点像宏观，没有做太多笔记，只是让它在我的脑海中发挥作用。
And then, when I walked down, I passed a cave.
然后，当我往下走时，我经过了一个山洞。
3:57:11 And I realized a lot about people’s relationship to caves and the cave paintings, how, you know, actually the cave walls, you see all the arteries of the rocks.
我意识到很多关于人们与洞穴和洞穴壁画的关系，你知道，实际上，你如何从洞穴墙壁看到岩石的所有动脉。
And I mean, on LSD, you see all of that and you see how alive that is and how beautiful it actually was by humans to then use that canvas and work your cave paintings in there.
我的意思是，在 LSD 上，你会看到这一切，你会看到它是多么的有活力，而且人类使用那块画布并在那里创作你的洞穴壁画实际上是多么美丽。
I mean, I never had the appreciation of that before.
我的意思是，我以前从未欣赏过这一点。
Yeah, you’re right, you are able to detect the aliveness of the details on psychedelics, if I can put it this way.
是的，你是对的，如果我可以这样说的话，你能够检测到迷幻药细节的活力。
For me, it’s a very creative drug.
对我来说，这是一种非常有创意的药物。
3:57:51 But for other people, it might not be, you know?
但对其他人来说，可能并非如此，你知道吗？
So I cannot advertise it, because also if you have a psychological problem, maybe it’s overwhelming.
所以我不能做广告，因为如果你有心理问题，也许会让人难以承受。
Yeah, that’s actually a good thing to say at this moment.
是的，现在说这实际上是一件好事。
3:58:03 From my perspective, and maybe you can comment on it.
从我的角度来看，也许你可以评论一下。
In general, when people ask me, because I’ve done psilocybin a few times and I did Ayahuasca and I’ve talked about it, when people ask me if I recommend those things, I, as a general statement, I say no.
一般来说，当人们问我时，因为我已经做过几次裸盖菇素，我也做过死藤水并且我已经谈论过它，当人们问我是否推荐这些东西时，我作为一般性声明，我说不。
You know, to the general population.
你知道，对于普通民众来说。
And then as a second step, if I’m talking to specific people on a case-by-case basis, I can just discuss my experience and let that be an inspiration.
然后作为第二步，如果我根据具体情况与特定的人交谈，我可以讨论我的经验并让它成为一种灵感。
Because I’m very hesitant to recommend a thing that could be so powerful.
因为我很犹豫要不要推荐一个如此强大的东西。
Because I don’t know- Like I had a tremendously positive experience and I was sure I would be meeting some demons.
因为我不知道——就像我有一次非常积极的经历，我确信我会遇到一些恶魔。
I thought I would have some demons in the basement or something, but I didn’t meet them.
我以为地下室里会有一些恶魔什么的，但我没有遇到他们。
Not yet.
还没有。
3:58:49 But people might have some demons.
但人心里难免有些心魔。
That they meet and then it might destroy them or it might change them in a way they don’t like.
他们相遇，然后可能会摧毁他们，或者可能以他们不喜欢的方式改变他们。
And actually, it’s a good question for me whether it’s good to do psychedelics when you’re in a good place in life or in a bad place in life.
事实上，这对我来说是一个很好的问题，当你处于生活的好境地或生活的境况不佳时，服用迷幻药是否有益。
Because I know that, you know, even scientifically there have been studies where psilocybin helps with extreme sort of, with depression and PTSD and all these kinds of things.
因为我知道，即使在科学上，也有研究表明裸盖菇素有助于治疗极端的抑郁症和创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）以及所有这些类型的疾病。
But I’d be very nervous about that too, because the mind is such a powerful thing and it’s such a complicated thing that with these really powerful tools, it’s unclear where it’s going to take you.
但我也会对此感到非常紧张，因为思想是如此强大，而且如此复杂，有了这些真正强大的工具，我们不清楚它会带你去哪里。
3:59:32 But I have heard a lot of stories of people have taken incredible journeys, sometimes difficult journeys, with psychedelics and have come out much happier and much freer and have healed some of the things they have been going through.
但我听过很多故事，人们在服用迷幻药的情况下经历了令人难以置信的旅程，有时甚至是艰难的旅程，结果变得更加快乐和自由，并且治愈了他们所经历的一些事情。
But when people ask me to recommend or not, I’m just too afraid to say yes.
但当人们问我推荐不推荐时，我却不敢说推荐。
I think the right thing is always just in general no.
我认为正确的事情总是一般来说“不”。
Be very careful.
要非常小心。
Yeah, I think it would be irresponsible to recommend it to people you don’t see.
是的，我认为向你没见过的人推荐它是不负责任的。
Right.
正确的。
You know?
你知道？
4:00:04 Maybe if you know a friend and the friend asks you, maybe then you could…
也许如果你认识一个朋友并且朋友问你，也许你可以……
Maybe I would say to a friend, “Yeah, I think you would be fine taking it.” But even that is a big responsibility, you know, because LSD in German, the book Trip, is called The Strongest Substance, and it is actually the strongest substance because it works in microgram dosages.
也许我会对朋友说：“是的，我想你可以接受它。”但即便如此，这也是一个很大的责任，你知道，因为LSD在德语中，即《旅行》一书，被称为“最强的物质”，它实际上是最强的物质，因为它在微克剂量下起作用。
Even the strongest snake poison, cobra toxin, if you use that in microgram dosages, you don’t feel anything.
即使是最强的蛇毒眼镜蛇毒素，如果你使用微克剂量，你也不会感到任何感觉。
But if you take 250 micrograms of LSD, it can totally overpower you.
但如果你服用 250 微克的 LSD，它就会完全压倒你。
And if you have an unstable psyche, it could turn you mad, you know?
如果你的心理不稳定，它可能会让你发疯，你知道吗？
Do you understand how it compares to psilocybin and ayahuasca and DMT?
你知道它与裸盖菇素、死藤水和 DMT 相比有何不同吗？
4:00:51 How does LSD compare to those?
LSD 与那些相比如何？
Is it similar territory, just more intense?
是不是类似的领域，只是更激烈？
Well, LSD and psilocybin are like cousins.
好吧，LSD 和裸盖菇素就像表兄弟一样。
Distant cousins, or?
是远房表兄弟还是？
No, quite close cousins.
不，是近亲。
4:01:05 And I spoke to a neuroscientist from a university clinic in Zurich, who’s been researching psilocybin and LSD since the early ’90s.
我采访了苏黎世大学诊所的一位神经科学家，他自 90 年代初以来一直在研究裸盖菇素和 LSD。
And he puts people in brain scanners, for example, so he sees exactly what happens in the brain on LSD or on psilocybin.
例如，他让人们接受脑部扫描仪，这样他就能准确地看到服用LSD或裸盖菇素后大脑中发生的情况。
And he said to me when I asked him that very same question, he said, “LSD is the more sophisticated molecule.” He meant by that is that LSD docks onto more receptors than psilocybin.
当我问他同样的问题时，他对我说，“LSD 是更复杂的分子。”他的意思是，LSD 比裸盖菇素能对接更多的受体。
Psilocybin interacts with like five different types of receptors in the brain, and LSD like with nine.
赛洛西宾与大脑中五种不同类型的受体相互作用，LSD 与九种不同类型的受体相互作用。
So that makes LSD a more complex molecule.
这使得 LSD 成为一个更复杂的分子。
That’s why it already works in very small quantities, because it’s like the key is perfect for our brain.
这就是为什么它在少量的情况下就已经起作用了，因为这就像钥匙对我们的大脑来说是完美的。
Our brain really reacts strongly to LSD.
我们的大脑对 LSD 反应非常强烈。
4:02:06 For psilocybin, you have to take milligrams, not micrograms, but milligrams.
对于裸盖菇素，你必须服用毫克，不是微克，而是毫克。
So mushrooms are also described as the softer psychedelic experience because it only lasts for like five hours, where LSD lasts like eight hours.
因此，蘑菇也被描述为较柔和的迷幻体验，因为它只持续大约五个小时，而LSD则持续大约八个小时。
And LSD can be more…
LSD 还可以……
LSD is also a mushroom, but it’s an ergot, which is a mushroom, but it’s turned into a diethylamide.
LSD也是一种蘑菇，但它是一种麦角，它是一种蘑菇，但它变成了二乙酰胺。
You extract the potent acid from ergot, which is lysergic acid, and you turn that into a diethylamide.
从麦角中提取强效酸，即麦角酸，然后将其转化为二乙酰胺。
So it’s a processed drug in a way.
所以在某种程度上它是一种加工过的药物。
It’s a potent processed drug that works well for mass movements.
它是一种有效的加工药物，非常适合群众运动。
That’s why it was so popular in the ’60s, because people could just make it, while mushrooms, they have to grow.
这就是为什么它在 60 年代如此受欢迎，因为人们可以直接制作它，而蘑菇则必须生长。
4:02:58 The hippie movement could never have sustained itself on mushrooms because so many mushrooms don’t even grow.
嬉皮士运动永远不可能靠蘑菇维持下去，因为很多蘑菇根本就长不出来。
But a good LSD chemist can make LSD for the whole world, basically.
但基本上，一名优秀的 LSD 化学家可以为全世界生产 LSD。
Can we go back to something we talked about in the beginning about Berlin?
我们可以回到我们一开始谈论的关于柏林的事情吗？
4:03:12 It’d be fascinating to learn more about this culture.
了解更多有关这种文化的信息会很有趣。
Are you still connected?
你还保持联系吗？
I’m sure you’ve been to some wild parties.
我相信你参加过一些疯狂的派对。
I’ve been told that Berlin has some wild parties.
有人告诉我柏林有一些疯狂的派对。
Well, it had them in the ’90s.
嗯，90 年代就有了。
4:03:30 I mean, it had the best clubs that I…
我的意思是，它拥有我所见过的最好的俱乐部……
It was just a dream.
这只是一个梦。
You go into this club.
你进入这个俱乐部。
But I was also in my mid-20s, so I would go into this club, I’d take MDMA, and the DJ is amazing and the sound system is crazy and there’s like 500 people on MDMA just dancing for like eight hours.
但当时我也才 20 多岁，所以我会去这个俱乐部，我会服用摇头丸，DJ 很棒，音响系统也很疯狂，大约有 500 个人在摇头丸上跳舞了大约八个小时。
And that’s when electronic music was really…
那时电子音乐真的......
Yeah, it was really good.
是的，真的很好。
4:03:50 A friend of mine, he runs an underground club of visionaries, which is a famous club in Berlin, and he asked me in the early 2000s when this club was offered to him, “Should I do this?” I said, “Gregor, techno is over, electronic music is dead.” But obviously, it’s not dead, it’s still going on, but in the ’90s it was new.
我的一个朋友，他经营着一个地下梦想家俱乐部，这是柏林一家著名的俱乐部，他在 2000 年代初当这个俱乐部提供给他时问我，“我应该这样做吗？”我说：“格雷戈尔，电子音乐已经结束，电子音乐已经死了。”但显然，它并没有消亡，它仍在继续，但在 90 年代它是新的。
You really went into the club and you heard something you’d never heard before.
你真的走进了俱乐部，你听到了一些你以前从未听过的声音。
And the first time, I came from New York, and New York was a very old-school, kind of urban place, rock and roll or grunge music, and I came to Berlin.
第一次，我来自纽约，纽约是一个非常老派的城市地方，有摇滚乐或垃圾摇滚音乐，然后我来到了柏林。
It was in a club called I Am A Bucket in East Berlin, it doesn’t exist anymore, like, in a rundown, totally rundown squat.
那是在东柏林一家名为“我是桶”的俱乐部里，它已经不存在了，就像在一个破旧的、完全破旧的蹲坑里一样。
4:04:35 And I went to the bar and I had a beer, and I looked and there were just a few people on the dance floor and this electronic music which I’d never heard before.
我去了酒吧，喝了一杯啤酒，我看了看，舞池里只有几个人，还有我以前从未听过的电子音乐。
And the guy in front of me, he was like…
而我面前的那个人，他就像……
He looked like an East Berlin skinhead type of guy, but totally smiling.
他看起来像东柏林的光头党，但脸上总是挂着微笑。
I’m sure he was on ecstasy, and he was disassembling an imaginary machine.
我确信他当时正处于狂喜之中，正在拆卸一台想象中的机器。
And I just looked at this guy, he was like…
我只是看着这个人，他就像……
For one hour he was just doing the most…
一小时内他只是做了最多的事情……
4:05:02 …complicated things.
……复杂的事情。
And I was like, this is a totally different way of moving, and I liked that actually.
我当时想，这是一种完全不同的移动方式，而且我实际上很喜欢它。
I liked to dance in clubs.
我喜欢在俱乐部跳舞。
And I did this for like two years very intensely with my girlfriend at the time.
我和当时的女朋友非常紧张地这样做了大约两年。
We went out a lot, from Friday to Monday, basically, but it means…
我们基本上从周五到周一出去了很多次，但这意味着……
And a lot of people still do that in Berlin, but it means that you can’t really work.
在柏林，很多人仍然这样做，但这意味着你无法真正工作。
Yeah, you escaped that.
是的，你逃脱了。
4:05:29 It’s interesting that you were able to do that for a short time, just as an experience, and then go on…
有趣的是，你能够在短时间内这样做，只是作为一种体验，然后继续……
…To be extremely productive.
......变得非常高效。
For me, it was also kind of research, even though I didn’t know this.
对我来说，这也是一种研究，尽管我不知道这一点。
Life is research in a way, if you allow it to be.
在某种程度上，如果你允许的话，生活就是研究。
I could not have written these books on history and drugs without having had these drug experiences because…
如果没有这些吸毒经历，我不可能写出这些关于历史和毒品的书，因为……
4:05:45 also, like, when I wrote about methamphetamine and the Nazis, I asked…
另外，就像，当我写关于甲基苯丙胺和纳粹的文章时，我问……
at the time weed was illegal in Germany, so I asked a friend of mine, she’s a cannabis dealer, I guess you would say.
当时大麻在德国是非法的，所以我问我的一个朋友，我猜你会说她是大麻经销商。
I said, “Can you also get me crystal meth?” And she was, like, shocked, like, “No,” because she was a weed dealer, but then she found a Polish guy who actually had crystal meth.
我说：“你能给我冰毒吗？”她很震惊，“不”，因为她是一名杂草贩子，但后来她发现一个波兰人实际上拥有冰毒。
I just wanted to have it.
我只是想拥有它。
It was like the Paul Schrader thing when he wrote the screenplay to Taxi Driver, he had a gun in his drawer.
就像保罗·施拉德（Paul Schrader）写《出租车司机》的剧本时一样，他抽屉里有一把枪。
4:06:23 So he would play, you know, get the vibe of danger.
所以他会玩，你知道，感受到危险的氛围。
And so I wanted to have this crystal meth, so this Polish guy sold it to me and he gave me a Xerox without me saying anything, and maybe my friend, maybe she said “He’s a writer” or something, but he gave me the methamphetamine, one gram, and the Xerox copy of the patent of Pervitin from 1938.
所以我想要这种冰毒，所以这个波兰人把它卖给了我，他给了我一份复印本，我什么也没说，也许是我的朋友，也许她说“他是一名作家”之类的，但他给了我甲基苯丙胺，一克，还有 1938 年 Pervitin 专利的复印副本。
So this was a crystal meth dealer that actually had historical…
所以这是一个冰毒贩子，实际上有历史……
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
4:06:50 Knowledge, yeah.
知识，是的。
…knowledge about it.
……有关它的知识。
4:06:52 So…
所以……
Did you, did you ever try?
你、你尝试过吗？
Yeah, well then I tried it because I really wanted…
是的，然后我尝试了，因为我真的想要......
4:06:55 I could not really write about it in the same way without having tried it.
如果没有尝试过，我就无法真正以同样的方式来写它。
I can’t recommend it.
我不能推荐它。
It feels very toxic.
感觉很有毒。
When you take a psychedelic, I can say this with a clear conscience, it’s not toxic.
当你服用迷幻药时，我可以问心无愧地说，它没有毒。
LSD is not toxic; it doesn’t poison you.
LSD无毒；它不会毒害你。
You might have reactions in your brain that are too much for you, but if you snort crystal meth, it goes on your central nervous system, your heart starts pounding, your blood pressure rises.
你的大脑可能会产生一些对你来说难以忍受的反应，但如果你吸食冰毒，它会影响你的中枢神经系统，你的心脏开始剧烈跳动，你的血压也会升高。
So it’s stressful on the organism; it’s toxic, you know.
所以它会给机体带来压力；它有毒，你知道。
4:07:29 But still, the effect in the brain is not so interesting as with LSD.
但尽管如此，大脑中的效果并不像LSD那么有趣。
You couldn’t go crazy, I would say, on crystal meth.
我想说，你不能因为冰毒而发疯。
You’re just very much awake, but you don’t have crazy thoughts that you can’t evaluate anymore.
你只是非常清醒，但你不再有无法评估的疯狂想法。
So it’s a very, very different drug, but taking that, of course, made me understand better how a soldier feels in the tank taking it.
所以这是一种非常非常不同的药物，但是服用它当然让我更好地理解了士兵在坦克中服用它的感受。
Yeah.
是的。
4:07:50 Yeah, I think that’s really, really important to do.
是的，我认为这真的非常非常重要。
I have to ask, your friend Alex, who…
我得问一下，你的朋友亚历克斯，他……
it sounds like he’s taken every single drug there is.
听起来他已经服用了所有的药物。
Has he spoken about, like, what’s the most interesting drug?
他有没有谈到过，比如，最有趣的药物是什么？
What’s his favorite drug?
他最喜欢的药物是什么？
He seems like a connoisseur, right?
他看起来像个鉴赏家，对吧？
But he’s not a psychedelic guy, so.
但他不是一个迷幻的人，所以。
Oh, well then, okay.
哦，那么，好吧。
He’s more into the addictive drugs.
他更喜欢上瘾的药物。
It’s very difficult, I guess.
我想这非常困难。
4:08:18 Yeah, that would be a special person that can be a really, sort of, a full-on explorer of the drug space, because if you get into psychedelics, then you don’t really want to do the hard drugs, and if you get the hard drugs, you don’t want to…
是的，那将是一个特殊的人，可以是一个真正的、某种程度上的、毒品领域的全面探索者，因为如果你进入致幻剂，那么你真的不想吸毒，如果你吸毒，你也不想……
Right.
对。
4:08:37 They contradict each other.
他们互相矛盾。
They do contradict each other.
他们确实互相矛盾。
4:08:38 Yeah.
是的。
It’s why we spend less and less time together.
这就是为什么我们在一起的时间越来越少。
Since you mentioned Kerouac, I love Kerouac.
既然你提到了凯鲁亚克，我就喜欢凯鲁亚克。
4:08:46 Do we know any famous writers that have used drugs as part of their writing?
我们知道有哪些著名作家在写作中使用过毒品吗？
So Kerouac is one.
凯鲁亚克就是其中之一。
Do we know any famous writers who have not used drugs as part of their writing?
我们知道有哪些著名作家在写作中没有使用过毒品吗？
Interesting.
有趣的。
4:09:03 So wait, I didn’t actually know, to be honest, this story.
等等，说实话，我实际上并不知道这个故事。
I love Kerouac.
我爱凯鲁亚克。
That’s the good thing about being a writer, you can take drugs on the job and no one will cancel you for it.
这就是成为一名作家的好处，你可以在工作中吸毒，没有人会因此而取消你的工作。
4:09:08 If you’re like a politician, you can’t really do it.
如果你像政客一样，你就无法真正做到这一点。
That’s right.
这是正确的。
4:09:16 You can be a rock star or you can be a writer.
你可以成为摇滚明星，也可以成为作家。
You can be an artist and take drugs.
你可以成为一名艺术家并吸毒。
You mentioned that Kerouac did what?
你提到凯鲁亚克做了什么？
Amphetamine.
安非他明。
Amphetamine.
安非他明。
Speed.
速度。
4:09:23 Basically, speed.
基本上，速度。
The legend has it that On the Road was written in two weeks on speed, basically without sleeping and using an endless paper roll…
传说《在路上》是用两周时间写成的，基本上没有睡觉，用了无穷无尽的纸卷……
Yeah, the whole scroll.
是的，整个卷轴。
4:09:34 Yeah.
是的。
…in this typewriter, so he was just writing.
……在这台打字机上，所以他只是在写。
4:09:35 And I can imagine that you can write a hell of a lot on amphetamines.
我可以想象你可以写很多关于安非他明的文章。
I do it sometimes, but not a lot, you know.
我有时会这样做，但不是很多，你知道。
So I can take amphetamines and have a really good time and write, like, 20 pages, but then the next day, I wouldn’t do it anymore.
所以我可以服用安非他明，度过一段非常愉快的时光，写大约 20 页，但第二天，我就不再这样做了。
But he decided, “Okay, for 14 days, I’m going to do it.” Philip K.
但他决定，“好吧，我要坚持 14 天。”菲利普·K.
Dick was an amphetamine writer.
迪克是一位安非他明作家。
Also, I think if you take a lot of amphetamines, you get into kind of psychedelic spaces at a certain point in time where you start hallucinating.
另外，我认为如果你服用大量安非他明，你会在某个时间点进入某种迷幻空间，开始产生幻觉。
Like, if you write Blade Runner, maybe it helps you.
就像，如果你写《银翼杀手》，也许它对你有帮助。
So amphetamines are also…
所以安非他命也是……
they can be creative, I guess.
我猜他们可能很有创造力。
It’s just not, it’s not my type of drug.
只是不是，这不是我喜欢的药物。
4:10:20 And they’re certainly not as creative as…
而且他们当然没有那么有创造力……
But it also depends on the person.
但这也取决于人。
Like, Malcolm Lowry, Under the Volcano, he was drinking a lot, or Hemingway was drinking a lot, and they could only write when they’re drunk.
就像马尔科姆·洛瑞，在火山之下，他喝了很多酒，或者海明威喝了很多酒，他们只有喝醉了才能写作。
When I’m drunk, I can’t write.
当我喝醉的时候，我无法写作。
I just can’t do it.
我就是做不到。
Write drunk, edit sober.
醉了写，清醒了编辑。
And that’s advisable.
这是可取的。
4:10:40 Like, if I would write something on amphetamines, I would certainly edit it sober, of course, because on amphetamines, your self-criticism is lowered because you feel so good, you feel so confident.
就像，如果我要写一些关于安非他明的东西，我当然会清醒地编辑它，因为在安非他明上，你的自我批评会降低，因为你感觉很好，你感觉很自信。
You just write.
你就写吧。
But writing is about nuances, especially literary writing.
但写作涉及细微差别，尤其是文学写作。
Maybe a non-fiction book would be easy on amphetamines, but a novel, it’s all about you have to be very, very open.
也许一本非小说类书籍对安非他明很容易，但一本小说，你必须非常非常开放。
Amphetamines close you.
安非他明会关闭你。
You become like a machine, you write.
你变得像一台机器，你写作。
But if you’re on the right track, like Kerouac with On the Road, he had the right, you know, he was on, he was going, you know?
但如果你走在正确的轨道上，就像凯鲁亚克的《在路上》一样，他就有权利，你知道，他一直在走，他正在走，你知道吗？
But you could also be on the wrong one and then write 200 pages, and you just have to throw it away.
但你也可能写错了，然后写了 200 页，然后你就只能把它扔掉。
And probably he did a lot of that also, you know?
也许他也做了很多这样的事，你知道吗？
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
4:11:26 And also, On the Road is a particular kind of book.
而且，《在路上》是一类特殊的书。
It’s an amphetamine book.
这是一本安非他命书。
You want the spontaneity, the speed of…
你想要自发性、速度......
It’s about speed.
这是关于速度的。
4:11:36 It’s about moving fast…
这是关于快速移动......
…But not stopping.
……但没有停止。
It is a speed book.
这是一本快速书。
That’s a great book.
那是一本很棒的书。
It’s such a great book.
这是一本很棒的书。
4:11:43 It’s such a great book.
这是一本很棒的书。
But then I’ve recently been rereading all of Dostoevsky.
但最近我又重读了陀思妥耶夫斯基的全部著作。
So going through Notes from Underground up to The Idiot, to Crime and Punishment, to Brothers Karamazov, and that, I don’t think—
所以，从《地下手记》到《白痴》，到《罪与罚》，再到《卡拉马佐夫兄弟》，我不认为——
Which one’s your favorite?
你最喜欢哪一个？
Brothers Karamazov.
卡拉马佐夫兄弟。
4:11:56 Well, I read in both Russian and English.
嗯，我读的是俄语和英语。
And for the longest time, it was The Idiot.
最长的时间是白痴。
Until…
直到……
It’s a complicated philosophical issue.
这是一个复杂的哲学问题。
When I was younger, I thought Prince Myshkin, the main character in The Idiot, was not as flawed as I believe he is now.
当我年轻的时候，我认为《白痴》中的主角梅什金王子并不像我现在认为的那样有缺陷。
I think Dostoevsky tried to create a Jesus-like character in Prince Myshkin.
我认为陀思妥耶夫斯基试图在梅什金王子身上塑造一个类似耶稣的角色。
And I think kind of failed, because he was too giving in a way that was actually counterproductive and destructive to the world, which he tried to fix in The Brothers Karamazov with Alyosha Karamazov.
我认为有点失败，因为他的付出太多，实际上对世界产生了反作用和破坏性，他试图在《卡拉马佐夫兄弟》和阿廖沙·卡拉马佐夫中解决这个问题。
But anyway, I don’t think you could do that.
但无论如何，我认为你做不到。
I’d be very surprised to learn that Dostoevsky did any drugs.
如果我得知陀思妥耶夫斯基吸毒，我会感到非常惊讶。
Also, there was not so much available.
而且，没有那么多可用的。
That’s true.
这是真的。
Alcohol, of course, nicotine, coffee.
当然还有酒精、尼古丁、咖啡。
4:12:49 Those are really powerful drugs.
这些都是非常强大的药物。
And I’m also doing a podcast with Chuck Palahniuk, author of Fight Club and many other amazing books.
我还与《搏击俱乐部》和许多其他精彩书籍的作者 Chuck Palahniuk 一起制作播客。
He’s a great writer.
他是一位伟大的作家。
4:13:02 Fight Club influenced me quite a bit.
搏击俱乐部对我影响很大。
I think the novel is even better, maybe, than the movie.
我认为小说可能比电影更好。
But the movie’s great.
但电影很棒。
I mean, as he said, the movie is great, and that is almost like a bigger than life thing.
我的意思是，正如他所说，这部电影很棒，这几乎就像是一件比生活更重要的事情。
4:13:12 Sometimes the book and the movie and those things can influence culture.
有时书籍和电影以及那些东西可以影响文化。
That certainly influenced culture.
这无疑影响了文化。
To where, like, “Okay, this has a life of its own.” I’d like to think some of your work might influence how we perceive history.
到那里，就像，“好吧，这有它自己的生命。”我想你的一些工作可能会影响我们如何看待历史。
4:13:26 That’s really important.
这真的很重要。
That’s really powerful.
这真的很强大。
To not just change, but to sort of expand our conception of history, which is important to do.
不仅要改变，还要扩展我们的历史观念，这一点很重要。
Are there particular books, fiction or non-fiction?
是否有特定的书籍、小说或非小说类书籍？
So you are both a fiction writer and a non-fiction writer.
所以你既是小说作家又是非小说作家。
Are there books that had an influence on you?
有没有对你产生过影响的书？
Yes.
是的。
4:13:53 It’s Ulysses by James Joyce.
这是詹姆斯·乔伊斯的《尤利西斯》。
Ulysses is good, but only when you’re like in your early 20s, living in New York, and you’re writing your first book, and you just have taken LSD.
《尤利西斯》很好，但只有当你二十岁出头，住在纽约，正在写你的第一本书，而且你刚刚服用了迷幻药时。
Oh, nice.
哦，不错。
Then I read it, and then it opened…
然后我读了它，然后它打开了……
It made sense?
有道理吗？
Well, it just showed, it’s just a very experimental novel, so it opens up.
嗯，它刚刚表明，这只是一部非常实验性的小说，所以它开放了。
4:14:11 You don’t have to understand everything, but it shows you that there are many different ways of telling a tale, and that was quite interesting to me.
你不必了解所有内容，但它向你展示了讲故事的多种不同方式，这对我来说非常有趣。
But the most influential book, maybe, is The Stranger by Camus.
但最有影响力的书也许是加缪的《局外人》。
4:14:31 Because I like the language so much and I’m really mostly interested in language.
因为我非常喜欢这门语言，而且我真的对语言最感兴趣。
I don’t really care what it’s about.
我真的不在乎它是关于什么的。
I was lying on the beach in Morocco when I was 20 and reading The Stranger, and then a Moroccan came and he said, “Why are you reading a racist book?” I’m like, “What are you talking about?
20 岁时，我躺在摩洛哥的海滩上读《陌生人》，然后一个摩洛哥人走过来，他说：“你为什么读一本种族主义书？”我说：“你在说什么？
This is world literature.” He said, “Yeah, right.
这就是世界文学。”他说：“是啊，没错。
He’s, like, killing an Arab without consequence.
他就像是在不承担任何后果的情况下杀死了一个阿拉伯人。
No, actually there’s consequence, but no reason, basically.
不，实际上有结果，但基本上没有原因。
Just because he’s bored.
只是因为他无聊。
So this is racist.” That argument made no sense to me, because I was just interested in how Camus constructed it.
所以这是种族主义。”这个论点对我来说毫无意义，因为我只是对加缪如何构建它感兴趣。
It was just for me a stylistic experience to read that.
阅读这篇文章对我来说只是一种风格体验。
I always love books, and Stranger’s a short book.
我一直很喜欢书，《陌生人》是一本很短的书。
4:15:16 I love books that are able to accomplish so much in so few pages, in so few words.
我喜欢那些能够在如此少的页数、如此少的字数内完成如此多的事情的书。
The Stranger.
陌生人。
There’s nothing unnecessary in The Stranger, and I always try to write a book where every sentence is just…
《陌生人》中没有多余的东西，我总是试图写一本每句话都只是……的书。
4:15:28 There’s nothing unnecessary in the book.
书里没有什么多余的东西。
But it’s very hard to do, actually.
但事实上，这很难做到。
Nietzsche could do this.
尼采可以做到这一点。
Peterson talked about this, that every sentence in Nietzsche is chiseled and it’s perfect.
彼得森谈到了这一点，尼采的每句话都是轮廓分明、完美的。
4:15:46 And I think not every…
而且我认为并不是每个...
I mean, that’s his tendency.
我的意思是，这就是他的倾向。
He tries to write like this, and that’s very hard to achieve.
他试图这样写，但这是很难实现的。
That’s actually where the writing becomes poetic.
这实际上就是写作变得诗意的地方。
So for me, Nietzsche also is like a poet.
所以对我来说，尼采也像一位诗人。
The aphorisms are poetry.
格言是诗。
So Nietzsche, stylistically, since you asked, was very important to me.
所以尼采，从风格上来说，既然你问了，对我来说非常重要。
So Camus, Nietzsche, James Joyce, and Kafka also.
加缪、尼采、詹姆斯·乔伊斯和卡夫卡也是如此。
I always like Kafka.
我永远喜欢卡夫卡。
And I like Thomas Mann.
我喜欢托马斯·曼。
I don’t know how well he translates, but in German it’s interesting, his take on how to…
我不知道他翻译得怎么样，但用德语来说，这很有趣，他对如何……的看法
It’s funny.
这很有趣。
He’s a very funny guy.
他是一个非常有趣的人。
Even though he talks too much, but he’s good.
虽然他话太多，但是人很好。
So I always wanted to have these guys as my colleagues, basically.
所以基本上我一直希望这些人成为我的同事。
Are they there somewhere in your head as you’re writing?
当你写作时，它们是否存在于你的脑海中？
Less and less.
越来越少。
4:16:33 But it was an incentive to be part of that club.
但这是成为该俱乐部一员的动力。
Like, to be able to write a book and it’s out there and it’s perfect, and it’s…
就像，能够写一本书，它就在那里，它是完美的，而且它......
and you are on one level with Camus, you know?
你和加缪是同一级别的，你知道吗？
It’s very hard to do.
这很难做到。
Let’s say you become a carpenter, which is also a very challenging job, but you don’t have these kind of great…
假设你成为一名木匠，这也是一项非常具有挑战性的工作，但你没有这些伟大的......
Well, you have Jesus, I guess, as your potential colleague.
好吧，我猜你有耶稣作为你潜在的同事。
Yeah, true.
是的，没错。
But for the…
但对于...
4:16:59 I just like these writers, these two.
我只是喜欢这两位作家。
So the ones I mentioned, and also then Thomas Pynchon.
我提到的那些，还有托马斯·品钦。
Who wrote Gravity’s Rainbow, which I think is one of the best novels of the 20th century.
谁写了《万有引力之虹》，我认为这是 20 世纪最好的小说之一。
And I read that in Berlin in the late ’90s, and it really blew my mind.
九十年代末，我在柏林读到了这本书，它真的让我大吃一惊。
I think it’s an absolute masterpiece.
我认为这绝对是一部杰作。
The intensity of this novel, Gravity’s Rainbow, is unparalleled, and I’m still puzzled by how he did it.
《万有引力之虹》这本小说的强度是无与伦比的，我仍然对他是如何做到的感到困惑。
And it’s not known how he did it because he lives a completely obscure life.
我们不知道他是如何做到的，因为他过着完全默默无闻的生活。
No one knows basically who he is.
基本上没有人知道他是谁。
So he’s also a very interesting colleague.
所以他也是一个非常有趣的同事。
It’s widely regarded as one of the most challenging and significant works of postmodern literature.
它被广泛认为是后现代文学中最具挑战性和最重要的作品之一。
It’s pretty good.
非常好。
Set primarily in Europe at the end of World War II, the novel centers on the design, production, and deployment of the German V-2 rocket.
小说主要以二战末期的欧洲为背景，讲述了德国 V-2 火箭的设计、生产和部署。
4:17:47 The narrative follows several characters.
叙述遵循几个人物。
It lists the characters.
它列出了字符。
Well, Slothrop is the American agent who’s the main character.
好吧，斯洛索普是美国特工，也是主角。
4:17:58 He works for Allied Intelligence, and he’s really a funny guy.
他为联合情报局工作，他真的是一个有趣的人。
He smokes a lot of weed and he’s in Berlin, in bombed out Berlin after the war, and it’s just funny to go with him through that.
他抽了很多大麻，而且他在柏林，在战后被炸毁的柏林，和他一起经历这一切很有趣。
He’s a great character.
他是一个伟大的人物。
It’s a great novel.
这是一本很棒的小说。
It really is.
确实如此。
So it does give a window into history also.
所以它确实也提供了一个了解历史的窗口。
It does, yeah.
确实如此，是的。
4:18:20 But that’s not why it’s interesting to me.
但这并不是我感兴趣的原因。
But it makes it especially interesting because the way he describes these situations, the way he writes is phenomenal.
但这使它特别有趣，因为他描述这些情况的方式，他的写作方式是惊人的。
Oh, it’s a Pulitzer Prize and all.
哦，这是普利策奖等等。
Oh, but I’m sure he didn’t take it.
哦，但我确信他没有接受。
On lists.
在名单上。
Yeah, he declined.
是的，他拒绝了。
Because like…
因为像……
Well, no one knows who he is.
好吧，没有人知道他是谁。
4:18:39 I know a little bit.
我知道一点点。
I know who his wife is, but I’m not going to talk about it.
我知道他的妻子是谁，但我不会谈论它。
He really wants to protect his privacy.
他确实想保护自己的隐私。
And I think that’s also amazing.
我认为这也很棒。
I think that’s a beautiful thing, but for me, from my perspective…
我认为这是一件美好的事情，但对我来说，从我的角度来看……
He wouldn’t appear in the podcast?
他不会出现在播客中吗？
He would not.
他不会。
It would be great if he would come on the podcast.
如果他能参加播客那就太好了。
He would not, right.
他不会，对吧。
4:18:55 Well, I believe it’s possible, but with people like that, it has to be a long journey, and you have to…
嗯，我相信这是可能的，但是对于这样的人来说，这必须是一个漫长的旅程，而且你必须……
For example, I just interviewed Terence Tao, who’s one of the greatest mathematicians, one of the greatest living mathematicians, probably one of the greats in history.
例如，我刚刚采访了陶哲轩，他是最伟大的数学家之一，是当今最伟大的数学家之一，可能是历史上最伟大的数学家之一。
And there’s another I want to speak with, which is Grigori Perelman, who’s a Russian mathematician, who’s more akin to Thomas Pynchon.
我想和另一个人交谈，他是俄罗斯数学家格里戈里·佩雷尔曼（Grigori Perelman），他更像托马斯·品钦（Thomas Pynchon）。
He declined the Millennial Prize, the one million dollars.
他拒绝了千禧年奖，即一百万美元。
He declined all the prizes, the Fields Medal, Breakthrough Prize in Mathematics.
他拒绝了所有奖项：菲尔兹奖、数学突破奖。
He declined everything, and he just lives with his mom now, quit mathematics.
他拒绝了一切，现在和他妈妈住在一起，放弃了数学。
Like Kirilov, he also lived with his mom.
和基里洛夫一样，他也和母亲住在一起。
There’s something really beautiful about a human being like that.
像这样的人确实有一些美丽的东西。
4:19:37 Especially because in his case it was done for principles.
尤其是因为在他的例子中，这是出于原则而做的。
Like, he has a certain set of principles, and no amount of money, nothing could buy him or …
就像，他有一套一定的原则，无论有多少钱，没有什么可以买他或......
Yeah, that’s amazing actually.
是的，这实际上很棒。
I had somebody tell me this, a really interesting guy I met a few days ago, said that there’s nothing, there’s nothing more exhilarating.
有人告诉我这一点，几天前我遇到的一个非常有趣的人，他说没有什么，没有什么比这更令人兴奋的了。
4:19:54 Perhaps only a rich person can say this, but there’s nothing more exhilarating than saying no to a lot of money.
也许只有富人才能说出这样的话，但没有什么比拒绝很多钱更令人兴奋的了。
But he said it with so much confidence that I somehow believed him.
但他说得那么自信，我不知怎么就相信了他。
But the deeper truth there is living by principles and having integrity.
但更深层次的真理是按原则生活并保持正直。
There is something deeply fulfilling.
有一种深深的满足感。
If that means saying no to money or if that means standing up to Hitler and then risking your life, that’s a deeply fulfilling thing.
如果这意味着对金钱说不，或者如果这意味着勇敢地面对希特勒，然后冒着生命危险，那是一件非常令人满足的事情。
Big ridiculous question, I thought you’re a good person to ask.
真是个可笑的大问题，我认为你是个好人。
What’s the point of this whole thing?
这整件事有什么意义呢？
What’s the meaning of life and our existence here on Earth?
生命和我们在地球上存在的意义是什么？
I somehow think that the universe has a big story to tell, or it’s telling a big story the whole time, and our consciousness is part of that bigger story.
不知怎的，我认为宇宙有一个大故事要讲，或者它一直在讲一个大故事，而我们的意识是这个更大故事的一部分。
4:20:54 So the consciousness of the universe, the huge story, is something that is probably the meaning of life.
所以宇宙的意识，这个庞大的故事，很可能就是生命的意义。
Or the meaning of our individual life is to understand that story.
或者我们个人生活的意义就是理解那个故事。
And that is something, for example, that I understood quite well on LSD when I walked in the mountains about a month ago.
例如，大约一个月前，当我在山里散步时，我对迷幻药非常了解。
Because the mountains, they actually, you know, they take quite high up into the atmosphere, and they are made of all kinds of minerals.
因为山脉实际上，你知道，它们占据相当高的大气层，并且它们是由各种矿物质组成的。
So they are receiving cosmic energy that comes, you know, that hits our planet.
所以他们正在接收来自撞击我们星球的宇宙能量。
And walking up there, it doesn’t…
走到那里，它并没有……
4:21:50 I guess if you’re on LSD, you’re more open somehow because you’re not closing with your default mode network that, you know, this is the tree and this is the path and this is the mountain, and now it’s 2:00 and I have to go back, and the rain.
我想如果你服用LSD，你会以某种方式更加开放，因为你没有关闭你的默认模式网络，你知道，这是树，这是路径，这是山，现在是2:00，我必须回去，还有雨。
You’re more open so you’re more, like, perceiving.
你更加开放，所以你更有洞察力。
That’s at least the impression I had.
至少这是我的印象。
And I couldn’t put it in words what exactly I was perceiving, but I was perceiving more of the bigger story.
我无法用语言表达我到底感受到了什么，但我感受到了更多更大的故事。
And I think that is inspiration, and I think those moments bring you quite close to the meaning of life.
我认为这就是灵感，我认为那些时刻让你非常接近生命的意义。
And I wouldn’t put that meaning of life in words.
我不会用语言表达生命的意义。
4:22:34 It is an experience, and I think that for me as an artist, it was an important experience to make, to get close to that.
这是一种体验，我认为对于我作为一名艺术家来说，这是一次重要的体验，能够接近它。
And that is what you can achieve in each of your professions, you know?
这就是你在每个职业中都能实现的目标，你知道吗？
Like a mathematician, he comes to that point when he, like, hears more or, like, he grasps connections.
就像数学家一样，当他听到更多或者掌握联系时，他就会达到这一点。
And he might not be able to put it into a formula yet, but if he’s an open person, he might be a better mathematician because he can understand a bit more of the meaning of everything.
他可能还无法将其放入公式中，但如果他是一个开放的人，他可能是一个更好的数学家，因为他可以更多地理解一切的含义。
Of this bigger story that’s being written.
关于这个正在书写的更大的故事。
Yeah.
是的。
4:23:17 And I mean, I mentioned to you my Substack which I think is gonna be the best Substack.
我的意思是，我向你提到了我的子堆栈，我认为它将是最好的子堆栈。
What’s, do you think it’s possible it’s the greatest Substack of all time in history?
什么，你认为它有可能是历史上最伟大的 Substack 吗？
That’s what it’s gonna be.
就是这样。
It’s gonna be, yeah.
会的，是的。
Stoned Sapiens Substack.
扔石头的智人子堆栈。
4:23:29 But something else…
但还有别的事……
I just hope you actually do it.
我只是希望你真的这么做。
Well, you should become a subscriber.
好吧，你应该成为订阅者。
I will definitely subscribe.
我一定会订阅。
I really realized that there is a greater, a bigger story, and it’s somehow interesting to try to open up.
我真的意识到有一个更伟大、更大的故事，而且尝试敞开心扉是很有趣的。
4:23:39 Because if we live…
因为如果我们活着……
That’s why I like to be in nature also quite a lot.
这就是为什么我也非常喜欢亲近大自然。
You have better access.
您有更好的访问权限。
We live boxed in.
我们生活在盒子里。
Walter Benjamin called us like the boxed human beings.
沃尔特·本杰明称我们为“被装在盒子里的人”。
Like we’re living in the cities, we’re waking up, we’re doing…
就像我们生活在城市一样，我们正在醒来，我们正在做……
It’s good to be, therefore, it’s good to be outside the system.
处于体制外是件好事，因此，处于体制之外也是好事。
And I hope that my art can contribute to, you know, freeing the brain waves to understanding a bit more.
我希望我的艺术能够有助于释放脑电波，让人们有更多的理解。
What that is, I don’t know, but I think the process of understanding more and connecting in different ways, that is what I’m going for because I think that is the meaning of life.
那是什么，我不知道，但我认为更多地理解并以不同的方式联系的过程，这就是我所追求的，因为我认为这就是生命的意义。
Well thank you for doing that with all of your work and for inspiring us all to do the same.
非常感谢您所做的所有工作，并激励我们所有人也这样做。
4:24:23 Thank you so much for talking today.
非常感谢您今天的发言。
It was great.
太棒了。
4:24:31 Thank you.
谢谢。
Thanks for listening to this conversation with Norman Ohler.
感谢您收听与诺曼·奥勒的对话。
4:24:34 To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description and consider subscribing to this channel.
为了支持这个播客，请在描述中查看我们的赞助商并考虑订阅这个频道。
And now let me leave you with some words from the great Terence McKenna: “Nature loves courage.
现在，让我向你们传达伟大的特伦斯·麦肯纳的话：“大自然喜爱勇气。
You make the commitment and nature will respond to that commitment by removing impossible obstacles.
你做出承诺，大自然就会通过消除不可能的障碍来回应你的承诺。
Dream the impossible dream and the world will not grind you under, it will lift you up.
梦想不可能的梦想，世界不会压垮你，而是会提升你。
This is the trick.
这就是窍门。
This is what all these teachers and philosophers who really counted, who really touched the alchemical gold, this is what they understood.
这就是所有这些真正算数的、真正接触过炼金金子的老师和哲学家，这就是他们所理解的。
This is the shamanic dance in the waterfall.
这就是瀑布里的萨满教舞蹈。
4:25:21 This is how magic is done, by hurling yourself into the abyss and discovering that it is in fact a featherbed.” Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.
这就是魔法的实现方式，将自己扔进深渊，然后发现它实际上是一张羽毛床。”感谢您的收听，希望下次再见。
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