朱莉娅·肖：谋杀犯罪心理、连环杀手、记忆与性

We all have the capacity to kill and murder people and do other terrible things.

我们都有能力杀人和谋杀他人以及做其他可怕的事情。

00:00 The question is, why we don’t do those things, rather than why we do do those things, quite often.

问题是，为什么我们不做这些事情，而不是为什么我们经常做这些事情。

Most men have fantasized about killing someone, about 70% in two studies, and most women as well.

大多数男性都曾幻想过杀人，两项研究显示这一比例约为 70%，大多数女性也是如此。

More than 50% of women have fantasized about killing somebody.

超过 50% 的女性曾幻想过杀人。

So, murder fantasies are incredibly common.

因此，谋杀幻想非常普遍。

The following is a conversation with Julia Shaw, a criminal psychologist who has written extensively on a wide variety of topics that explore human nature, including psychopathy, violent crime, psychology of evil, police interrogation, false memory manipulation, deception detection, and human sexuality.

以下是与犯罪心理学家朱莉娅·肖 (Julia Shaw) 的对话，她在探讨人性的各种主题上撰写了大量文章，包括精神病、暴力犯罪、邪恶心理、警察审讯、错误记忆操纵、欺骗检测和人类性行为。

00:23 Her books include “Evil,” about the psychology of murder and sadism; “The Memory Illusion,” about false memories; “Bi,” about bisexuality; and her new book that you should definitely go order now, “Green Crime,” which is a study of the dark underworld of poachers, illegal gold miners, corporate frauds, hitmen, and all kinds of other environmental criminals.

她的著作包括关于谋杀和虐待狂心理学的《邪恶》； “记忆错觉”，关于错误记忆； “Bi”，关于双性恋；还有她的新书《绿色犯罪》（Green Crime），你现在绝对应该去订购，该书研究了偷猎者、非法金矿开采者、企业欺诈、杀手和各种其他环境犯罪分子的黑暗黑社会。

Julia is a brilliant and kindhearted person with whom I got the chance to have many great conversations on and off the mic.

朱莉娅是一个才华横溢、心地善良的人，我有机会与她在麦克风内外进行了许多精彩的对话。

01:20 This was an honor and a pleasure.

这是一种荣幸和荣幸。

This is the Lex Fridman Podcast.

这是莱克斯·弗里德曼播客。

To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description, where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on.

为了支持它，请在描述中查看我们的赞助商，您还可以在其中找到联系我、提出问题、提供反馈等的链接。

And now, dear friends, here’s Julia Shaw.

现在，亲爱的朋友们，这是朱莉娅·肖。

01:38 You wrote the book “Evil: The Science Behind Humanity’s Dark Side.” So, lots of interesting topics to cover here.

你写了《邪恶：人类黑暗面背后的科学》一书。所以，这里有很多有趣的话题要讨论。

Let’s start with the continuum.

让我们从连续体开始。

You described that evil is a continuum.

你描述了邪恶是一个连续体。

In other words, the dark tetrad — psychopathy, sadism, narcissism, Machiavellianism — are a continuum of traits, not a binary zero-one label of monster or non-monster.

换句话说，黑暗四联体——精神病、虐待狂、自恋、马基雅维利主义——是一个连续的特征，而不是怪物或非怪物的二元零一标签。

So, can you explain this continuum?

那么，你能解释一下这个连续体吗？

So, each trait on the dark tetrad, as it’s called, are the four traits that are associated with dark personality traits, things that we often associate with the word evil, like sadism, which is a pleasure in hurting other people; Machiavellianism, which is doing whatever it takes to get ahead; narcissism, which is taking too much pleasure in yourself and seeing yourself as superior to others.

因此，所谓的黑暗四分体上的每一个特征都是与黑暗人格特征相关的四个特征，我们经常将这些特征与邪恶这个词联系在一起，比如虐待狂，以伤害他人为乐；马基雅维利主义，即不择手段地取得成功；自恋，是指对自己过于满意，认为自己比别人优越。

02:05 And then there’s psychopathy.

然后还有精神病。

Psychopathic personalities specifically often lack empathy, and it’s usually characterized by a number of different traits, including a parasitic lifestyle, so mooching off of others, deceptiveness, lying to people, and again, that empathy dimension where you are more comfortable hurting other people because you don’t feel sad when other people feel sad.

精神病态人格通常缺乏同理心，通常具有许多不同的特征，包括寄生生活方式、欺负他人、欺骗、对人撒谎，以及在同理心维度上，你更愿意伤害别人，因为当别人感到悲伤时你不会感到悲伤。

02:52 Now, all of those traits — psychopathy, sadism, Machiavellianism, and narcissism — all of them have a scale.

现在，所有这些特征——精神病、虐待狂、马基雅维利主义和自恋——都有一个量表。

So, you can be low on each of those traits, or you can be high on each of those traits.

因此，你可以在这些特征中的每一个上都较低，也可以在其中的每一个特征上都很高。

And what the dark tetrad is, it’s actually a way of classifying people into those who might be more likely to engage in risky behaviors or harmful behaviors and those who are not.

黑暗四分体是什么，它实际上是一种将人们分为更有可能从事危险行为或有害行为的人和不从事危险行为或有害行为的人的一种方法。

And if you score high on all of them, you’re most likely to harm other people.

如果你在所有这些方面得分都很高，那么你很可能会伤害其他人。

But each of us score somewhere, so I might score low on sadism but higher on narcissism.

但我们每个人都有得分，所以我可能在施虐狂方面得分较低，但在自恋方面得分较高。

And in all of them, I’m probably subclinical.

在所有这些中，我可能都是亚临床的。

And so this is the other thing we often talk about in psychology, is that there’s clinical traits and clinical diagnoses, like someone is diagnosed as having narcissism.

这是我们在心理学中经常谈论的另一件事，就是有临床特征和临床诊断，就像某人被诊断为自恋一样。

03:37 Or they’re subclinical, which means you don’t quite meet the threshold, but you have traits that are related and that are so important for us to understand in the same context.

或者它们是亚临床的，这意味着您没有完全达到阈值，但您具有相关的特征，并且对于我们在同一背景下理解这些特征非常重要。

So early in the book, you raised the question that I think you highlight is a very important question.

在本书的早期，您提出了我认为您强调的一个非常重要的问题。

03:46 If you could go back in time, would you kill baby Hitler?

如果你能回到过去，你会杀死婴儿希特勒吗？

This is somehow a defining question.

这在某种程度上是一个定义性的问题。

Can you explain?

你能解释一下吗？

Well, it’s about whether you think that people are born evil.

嗯，这是关于你是否认为人性本恶。

03:58 And so the question of “Would you kill baby Hitler?” is meant to be something that gets people chatting about whether or not they think that people are born with the traits that make them capable of extreme harm towards others.

所以问题是“你会杀死婴儿希特勒吗？”旨在让人们讨论他们是否认为人们生来就有能力对他人造成极端伤害的特征。

Or whether they think it’s socialized, whether it’s something that maybe in how people are raised sort of manifests over time.

或者他们是否认为它是社会化的，是否是随着时间的推移，人们的成长方式可能会显现出来的东西。

And with Hitler, we know from psychologists who have pored over his traits over time and looked at who he was over the course of his life, there’s always this question of, “Was he mad or bad?”

对于希特勒，我们从心理学家那里了解到，他们随着时间的推移仔细研究了他的特征，并观察了他一生中的人，总是有这样的问题：“他是疯了还是坏了？”

04:32 And with the answer to, “Was he mad?” Well, he certainly had some characteristics that people would associate with, for example, maybe sadism.

并回答“他疯了吗？”嗯，他确实有一些人们会联想到的特征，例如，也许是虐待狂。

This idea that he was less high on empathy is probably also showcased in his work.

他的同理心不太高的想法可能也体现在他的作品中。

But in terms of whether he was born that way, I think the answer usually would be no.

但至于他是否生来如此，我想答案通常是否定的。

And actually, in his early life, he didn’t showcase quite a lot of the traits that later defined the horrors that he was capable of.

事实上，在他的早年生活中，他并没有表现出很多后来定义了他能够做出的恐怖的特征。

So, would I go back in time and kill baby Hitler?

那么，我会回到过去杀死婴儿希特勒吗？

The answer is no, because I don’t think it’s a straight line from baby to adult, and I don’t think people are born evil.

答案是否定的，因为我不认为从婴儿到成人是一条直线，而且我不认为人生来就是邪恶的。

So you think a large part of it is nurture versus nature, the environment shaping the person to become, to manifest the evil that they bring out to the world?

所以你认为其中很大一部分是后天与先天的对抗，是环境塑造了一个人，让他们向世界展示了邪恶？

Well, and I’d be careful with using the word “evil,” because I think we shouldn’t use it to describe human beings, as it most commonly “others” people.

好吧，我会谨慎使用“邪恶”这个词，因为我认为我们不应该用它来描述人类，因为它最常见的是“其他”人。

05:19 In fact, I think it makes us capable of perpetrating horrendous crimes against those we label evil.

事实上，我认为它使我们能够对那些我们标记为邪恶的人犯下可怕的罪行。

So for me, that word is the end of a conversation.

所以对我来说，这个词就是对话的结束。

When we call somebody evil, we say, “This person is so different from me that I don’t even need to bother trying to understand why they are capable of doing terrible things, because I would never do such things.

当我们称某人为邪恶时，我们会说：“这个人与我如此不同，我什至不需要费心去理解为什么他们能够做出可怕的事情，因为我永远不会做这样的事情。

I am good.” And so that artificial differentiation between good and evil is something that, certainly with the book, I’m trying to dismantle.

我很好。因此，我试图通过这本书来消除善恶之间的人为区分。

05:56 And that’s why introducing continuums for different kinds of negative traits is really important, and introducing this idea that there’s nothing fundamental to people that makes them capable of great harm.

这就是为什么引入不同类型的负面特征的连续体非常重要，并引入这样的想法：对于人们来说，没有什么基本的东西可以使他们产生巨大的伤害。

We all have the capacity to kill and murder people and do other terrible things.

我们都有能力杀人和谋杀他人以及做其他可怕的事情。

The question is, why we don’t do those things, rather than why we do do those things quite often.

问题是，为什么我们不做这些事情，而不是为什么我们经常做这些事情。

So, I think humanizing and understanding that we all have these traits is the most important thing in my book, certainly.

因此，我认为人性化和理解我们都有这些特征当然是我书中最重要的事情。

Yeah, I think a prerequisite of doing evil, I see this in war a lot, is to dehumanize the other.

是的，我认为作恶的先决条件是使他​​人非人化，我在战争中经常看到这一点。

06:24 In order to be able to murder them on scale, you have to reformulate the war as a fight between good and evil.

为了能够大规模谋杀他们，你必须将战争重新表述为正义与邪恶之间的战斗。

And the interesting thing you see with war is both sides think that it’s a battle of good versus evil.

你在战争中看到的有趣的事情是双方都认为这是一场善与恶的战争。

It almost always is like that, especially at large-scale wars.

几乎总是如此，尤其是在大规模战争中。

That’s right, and on top of dehumanization, there is also this other thing called de-individuation, which is where you see yourself as part of the group, and you no longer see yourself as an individual.

是的，除了非人化之外，还有一种叫做去个性化的东西，就是你将自己视为群体的一部分，而不再将自己视为个人。

06:49 So, it’s this fight of us versus them.

所以，这是我们与他们的战斗。

And so you need both of those things.

所以你需要这两件事。

You need that collapse of empathy for other people, the people who are on the other side.

你需要对其他人、对方的人失去同理心。

And you need this idea that you can be swallowed by the group, and that gives you a sense of the cloak of justice, the cloak of morality, even when, you know, maybe you’re on the wrong side.

你需要这样的想法：你可以被群体吞没，这让你感觉到正义的斗篷，道德的斗篷，即使你知道，也许你站在错误的一边。

And that’s where I mean, getting into who’s on the right side of each war is always a more complicated issue.

这就是我的意思，了解每场战争中谁站在正确的一边始终是一个更复杂的问题。

07:29 But certainly calling other people evil and calling the other side evil and dehumanizing them is crucial to most of these kinds of fights.

但毫无疑问，称他人为邪恶、称另一方为邪恶、非人性化对于大多数此类争斗至关重要。

Yeah, you promote empathy as an important thing to do when we’re trying to understand each other, and then a lot of people are, are uncomfortable with empathy when it comes to folks that we traditionally label as evil.

是的，当我们试图互相理解时，你提倡同理心作为一件重要的事情，然后很多人，当涉及到我们传统上标记为邪恶的人时，对同理心感到不舒服。

07:37 Hitler’s an example.

希特勒就是一个例子。

To have empathy means that you’re somehow dirtying yourself by the evil.

拥有同理心意味着你在某种程度上被邪恶玷污了自己。

What’s your case for empathy, even when we’re talking about some of the darker humans in human history?

即使我们谈论的是人类历史上一些黑暗的人类，你的同理心是什么？

My case for empathy, or “evil empathy” as I sometimes call it — so empathy for people who we often call evil…

我的同理心，或者我有时称之为“邪恶的同理心”的案例——对那些我们经常称为邪恶的人的同理心……

08:04 Also, the title of my book is “Evil,” or in the UK market, it’s “Making Evil,” which is a reference to a Nietzsche quote, which is, “Thinking evil is making evil.” The idea being that evil is a label we place onto others.

另外，我的书的标题是“邪恶”，或者在英国市场，它是“制造邪恶”，这是参考了尼采的名言，即“思考邪恶就是制造邪恶”。这个想法是邪恶是我们给他人贴上的标签。

There’s nothing inherent to anything that makes it evil.

任何事物都没有固有的东西使它变得邪恶。

And so I also think that we need to dismantle that and empathize with people we call evil, because if we’re saying that this is the worst kind of act or worst kind of manifestation of what somebody can be, so if someone can destroy others, torture others, hurt others…

所以我也认为我们需要废除这一点并同情那些我们称之为邪恶的人，因为如果我们说这是一个人所能成为的最糟糕的行为或最糟糕的表现，那么如果有人可以摧毁他人，折磨他人，伤害他人......

08:45 I work as a criminal psychologist, so I work a lot on sexual abuse cases, on rape cases, on murder trials, and so in those contexts, that word “evil” is used all the time.

我是一名犯罪心理学家，所以我在性虐待案件、强奸案件、谋杀审判等方面做了很多工作，所以在这些情况下，“邪恶”这个词一直被使用。

So, “This person is evil.” And if we’re doing that, then we need to go, “Okay, but what we actually want is…” We don’t really just want to label people.

所以，“这个人是邪恶的。”如果我们这样做，那么我们需要说，“好吧，但我们真正想要的是……”我们真的不仅仅是想给人们贴上标签。

We want to stop that behavior from happening, and the only way we’re going to do that is if we understand what led that person to come to that situation and to engage in that behavior.

我们想要阻止这种行为的发生，而要做到这一点的唯一方法就是我们了解是什么导致那个人陷入这种情况并做出这种行为。

And so that’s why evil empathy, I think, is crucial, because ultimately what we want is to make society safer.

因此，我认为，这就是为什么邪恶的同理心至关重要，因为最终我们想要的是让社会变得更安全。

And the only way we can do that is to understand the psychological and social levers that led them to engage in this behavior in the first place.

我们能做到这一点的唯一方法就是首先了解导致他们从事这种行为的心理和社会杠杆。

On a small tangent, I get to interview a bunch of folks that a large number of people consider evil.

顺便说一句，我采访了一群被很多人认为是邪恶的人。

09:26 So, how would you give advice about how to conduct such interviews when you’re sitting in front of a world leader that some millions of people consider evil?

那么，当你坐在一位被数百万人视为邪恶的世界领导人面前时，你会如何就如何进行此类采访提出建议呢？

Or if you’re sitting in front of people that are actual, like convicted criminals, what’s the way to conduct that interview?

或者，如果你坐在真实的人面前，比如被定罪的罪犯，那么进行采访的方式是什么？

Because to me, I want to understand that human being.

因为对我来说，我想了解那个人。

They also have their own narrative about why they’re good and why they’re misunderstood, and they have a story in which they’re not evil, and they’re going to try to tell that story.

他们也有自己的故事，讲述自己为什么善良、为什么被误解，他们有一个自己不邪恶的故事，他们会尝试讲述这个故事。

And some of them are exceptionally good at telling that story.

他们中的一些人非常擅长讲述这个故事。

So, if it’s for public consumption, how would you do that interview?

那么，如果是为了公众消费，你会如何进行采访？

I think it’s important to speak with people whom we, or who a lot of people, dehumanize, including myself.

我认为与我们或很多人非人化的人交谈很重要，包括我自己。

10:13 I mean, I also speak with people who I think are, or have, committed terrible crimes, and I’ve spoken to these people because, as a criminal psychologist, that’s often part of my job.

我的意思是，我也与那些我认为正在或曾经犯下可怕罪行的人交谈，我与这些人交谈是因为，作为一名犯罪心理学家，这通常是我工作的一部分。

So, what’s interesting, I think, when you’re speaking to people who have committed really terrible crimes, or certainly who’ve been convicted of terrible crimes, is that not only is it potentially insightful because they might give you a real answer and not just a controlled narrative about why they committed these crimes.

所以，我认为，有趣的是，当你与那些犯下真正可怕罪行的人，或者肯定是那些被判犯有可怕罪行的人交谈时，这不仅具有潜在的洞察力，因为他们可能会给你一个真正的答案，而不仅仅是关于他们为什么犯下这些罪行的受控叙述。

10:46 If they are either maintaining their innocence or they’re more reluctant to do that, I think even the narrative that they are controlling, that they’re being very careful with, still tells us a lot about them.

如果他们要么保持自己的清白，要么他们更不愿意这样做，我认为即使是他们正在控制的、他们非常小心的叙述，仍然告诉我们很多关于他们的信息。

So, I think, certainly in my research on environmental crime as well, what we see is that people use a lot of rationalization, and they say things like, “Well, everybody’s doing it.” And, “If I hadn’t done this first, somebody else would have done this waste crime or this other kind of crime.” And so there’s this rationalization.

所以，我认为，当然，在我对环境犯罪的研究中，我们看到人们使用了很多合理化手段，他们会说，“好吧，每个人都在这样做。”而且，“如果我没有先这样做，其他人就会犯下这种浪费犯罪或其他类型的犯罪。”所以就有了这种合理化。

There’s this normalization.

有这种标准化。

11:16 There’s this diminishing of your own role and agency, and that still tells us a lot about the psychology of people who commit crimes, because most of us are very bad at saying sorry and saying, “I messed this up, and I shouldn’t have done that.” And instead, what our brains do is they try to make us feel better, and they go, “No, you’re still a good person despite this one thing.” And so we try to rationalize it and we try to excuse it.

你自己的角色和能动性正在减弱，但这仍然告诉我们很多关于犯罪者的心理，因为我们大多数人都不善于道歉并说：“我把事情搞砸了，我不应该那样做。”相反，我们的大脑所做的就是试图让我们感觉更好，然后他们说：“不，尽管发生了这一件事，你仍然是一个好人。”所以我们试图为其合理化，并试图为其辩解。

We try to explain it.

我们尝试解释一下。

And there is some truth to it as well, because we know the reasons why we engage in that behavior, and other people don’t have the whole context.

这也有一定道理，因为我们知道自己做出这种行为的原因，而其他人并不了解整个背景。

So, we also do have more of the whole story.

所以，我们也确实有更多的整个故事。

11:54 But on the other hand, we need to also face the fact that sometimes we do terrible things and we need to stop doing those terrible things and prevent other people from doing the same.

但另一方面，我们也需要面对这样一个事实：有时我们会做出可怕的事情，我们需要停止做那些可怕的事情，并防止其他人做同样的事情。

I find these pictures of World War II leaders as children kind of fascinating, because it grounds you and makes you realize that there is a whole story there, of environment, of development through their childhood, through their teenage years…

我发现这些二战领导人小时候的照片有点令人着迷，因为它让你脚踏实地，让你意识到那里有一个完整的故事，关于环境，关于他们童年、青少年时期的发展……

12:03 you just remember they’re all kids.

你只记得他们都是孩子。

Except Stalin.

除了斯大林。

He was looking evil already when young.

他年轻时就看起来很邪恶。

Well, people used to not smile in photos as well.

嗯，人们过去在照片中也不微笑。

12:25 So, I think looking at historical photos of children, or sometimes even kids in other cultures, it’s like, “Oh, why are they all so serious?”

所以，我认为看着孩子们的历史照片，有时甚至是其他文化中的孩子们的历史照片，就像是，“哦，为什么他们都这么严肃？”

12:33 But our creepiness radars are also way off.

但我们的令人毛骨悚然的雷达还很遥远。

So, this is something that I’ve been interested in for a long time as well, is that we have this intuitive perception of whether or not somebody is trustworthy.

所以，这也是我长期以来一直感兴趣的事情，那就是我们对某人是否值得信任有这种直观的感知。

And that intuitive perception, according to ample studies at this point, is not to be trusted.

根据目前的大量研究，这种直觉感知是不可信的。

And one thing in particular is whether or not we think someone is creepy, including children, but usually the research is done, of course, on adult faces and with adults.

特别重要的一件事是，我们是否认为某人令人毛骨悚然，包括儿童，但当然，研究通常是针对成年人的面孔和成年人进行的。

And there’s only recently did we even really define what that vague feeling of creepiness is, and it has a lot to do with just not following social norms.

直到最近，我们才真正定义了这种模糊的令人毛骨悚然的感觉是什么，这与不遵守社会规范有很大关系。

And this is something we see that transfers to other contexts, like why people are afraid of people with severe mental illness and psychosis.

我们看到这一点可以转移到其他情况，例如为什么人们害怕患有严重精神疾病和精神病的人。

13:15 If you’re on the bus or the Tube in London and someone’s talking to themselves and they’re acting in an erratic way, we know that people are more likely to keep a distance.

如果您在伦敦的公共汽车或地铁上，有人自言自语并且行为举止不稳定，我们知道人们更有可能保持距离。

There was one study where they literally had a waiting room where they also had people with chairs, and the question was, “How many chairs would you sit away from someone you know has a severe mental illness?” And the answer is you sit more chairs away, and there’s a physical and psychological distancing that’s happening there.

在一项研究中，他们实际上有一个候诊室，里面也有带椅子的人，问题是，“你会坐在远离你认识的患有严重精神疾病的人的几把椅子上？”答案是你坐在更多的椅子上，那里正在发生身体和心理上的距离。

And it’s not because people with severe mental illness are inherently more violent or more dangerous.

这并不是因为患有严重精神疾病的人本质上更暴力或更危险。

That is not actually what the research finds.

研究发现实际上并非如此。

It’s that we perceive them as such because we perceive them as weird, basically.

我们之所以如此看待它们，是因为我们基本上认为它们很奇怪。

13:54 We go, “This isn’t how you’re supposed to be behaving, and so I’m worried about this, and so I’m going to keep my distance.” And so creepiness is much the same, and that’s where you can totally misfire whom you perceive as creepy just because they’re not acting in the way that you expect people to act in society.

我们说，“这不是你应该有的行为方式，所以我很担心这一点，所以我会保持距离。”因此，令人毛骨悚然的情况大致相同，这就是你完全可以让那些你认为令人毛骨悚然的人完全失败的地方，因为他们的行为方式与你期望人们在社会中的行为方式不同。

Well, what are the concrete features that contribute to our creepiness metric?

那么，影响我们的令人毛骨悚然指标的具体特征是什么？

14:10 Is that meme accurate that when the person’s attractive, you’re less likely to label them as creepy?

当这个人有吸引力时，你不太可能给他们贴上令人毛骨悚然的标签，这个模因准确吗？

It depends.

这取决于。

14:23 If they’re too attractive, it can be.

如果它们太有吸引力，那就可以了。

So, there are effects that interact there.

因此，那里存在相互作用的影响。

That’s hilarious.

太搞笑了。

And we also don’t trust people potentially who are too attractive, but again, a deviation from the norm.

我们也不信任那些可能太有吸引力的人，但这又是一种偏离常态的行为。

14:29 And so if you’re deviating in any way, that can lead to your assessment being more wrong, but also you assessing people as more negative.

因此，如果你有任何偏差，都可能导致你的评估更加错误，而且你也会对人们的评估更加消极。

And so with creepiness, the main thing that bothers me as a criminal psychologist is that tangential to creepiness is this general idea of trustworthiness and that you can tell whether somebody is lying.

因此，对于令人毛骨悚然的问题，作为一名犯罪心理学家，困扰我的主要问题是，与令人毛骨悚然无关的是可信度的一般概念，你可以判断某人是否在撒谎。

And I’ve done research on this, as have lots of other people, like Aldert Frey is one of the leading researchers on deception detection.

我和许多其他人一样对此进行了研究，例如阿尔德特·弗雷（Aldert Frey）是欺骗检测方面的领先研究人员之一。

15:08 And he has found in so many studies that it’s really hard to detect whether someone is lying reliably, and that people, especially police officers, people who do investigative interviewing, they have this high confidence level that they, because of their vast experience, can in fact tell whether the person across from them is lying to them, this witness, the suspect.

他在很多研究中发现，要检测一个人是否可靠地撒谎确实很困难，而人们，尤其是警察，进行调查性访谈的人，他们有很高的信心，因为他们拥有丰富的经验，他们实际上可以判断对面的人，这个证人，嫌疑人是否在对他们撒谎。

And even that, if you take them into experimental settings, they are no better than chance at detecting lies, and yet they think they are.

即便如此，如果你将它们置于实验环境中，它们在检测谎言方面并不比机会更好，但他们认为它们是这样。

15:39 And so again, you get into this path where you’re going to miss people who are actually lying to you potentially, and you’re going to potentially point at innocent people and say, “I think you’re guilty of this crime,” and you go hard on that person in a way that might even lead to a wrongful conviction.

如此一来，你就会再次走上这条路，你可能会错过那些实际上可能对你撒谎的人，你可能会指着无辜的人说：“我认为你犯了这起罪行”，然后你对那个人采取了严厉的态度，甚至可能导致错误的定罪。

So, the fact that it’s very difficult to detect lies and overconfidence in policing creates a huge problem.

因此，侦查谎言非常困难，而且对警察的过度自信造成了一个巨大的问题。

Not just policing, in relationships and in lots of other contexts as well.

不仅仅是治安，在人际关系和许多其他环境中也是如此。

16:04 I mean, a lot of jealousy is born out of uncertainty.

我的意思是，很多嫉妒都是由于不确定性而产生的。

Jealousy isn’t, “I know for sure that you have done something that is threatening our relationship.” A lot of jealousy is, “What’s in my head because I am assuming that you might be thinking or doing X.” And that is also basically an exercise in lie detection.

嫉妒并不是“我确信你做了一些威胁我们关系的事情”。很多嫉妒是，“我脑子里在想什么，因为我假设你可能正在思考或做某件事。”这基本上也是测谎的练习。

And there as well, we are very bad at it.

在这方面，我们也做得很糟糕。

Is there a combination of the dark tetrad and how good you are at lying?

黑暗四分体与你的撒谎能力是否有结合？

16:27 Are people with certain traits, maybe psychopathy, better at lying than others?

具有某些特征的人（也许是精神病患者）是否比其他人更擅长撒谎？

There’s definitely some research to support the idea that people with psychopathy are better at lying.

肯定有一些研究支持精神病患者更擅长撒谎的观点。

16:39 There’s also some research specifically on sort of faking good in, for example, parole decisions.

还有一些专门针对假释决定中的假冒行为的研究。

So, when it comes up to someone who is…

所以，当谈到某人时……

There’s a legal decision to be made as to whether this person can be released from prison or released from just detention in general.

关于此人是否可以从监狱释放或从一般拘留中释放，需要做出法律决定。

And then the person will act in a particular way, sort of mimic a good prisoner, mimic someone who’s safe to be released into society.

然后这个人会以一种特定的方式行事，有点模仿一个好囚犯，模仿一个可以安全地被释放到社会的人。

And then the committee goes, “Oh, well, you know, this person’s doing great,” and so they’re ready to be released.

然后委员会说，“哦，好吧，你知道，这个人做得很好，”所以他们准备被释放了。

And then they make the wrong decision because that person has been faking it.

然后他们做出了错误的决定，因为那个人一直在假装。

So, I think with psychopathy, it’s a bit complicated.

所以，我认为对于精神病来说，情况有点复杂。

17:21 There has been some, historically as well, some concern that certain treatment for psychopathy, especially empathy-focused treatment, makes people with psychopathy more likely to fake empathy and to weaponize it.

从历史上看，也有人担心，对精神病患者的某些治疗，尤其是以同理心为中心的治疗，会使精神病患者更有可能假装同理心并将其武器化。

But then there’s other research which finds that if you use other kinds of interventions, like Jennifer Skeem in California, who does research on people with psychopathy who have committed severe crimes.

但还有其他研究发现，如果你使用其他类型的干预措施，就像加利福尼亚州的詹妮弗·斯基姆（Jennifer Skeem）对犯有严重犯罪的精神病患者进行研究。

And she specifically creates these treatment programs that aren’t just around empathy, but they’re more around almost learning the rules of society and convincing people that actually being pro-social is a better way to get what you want in life.

她专门创建了这些治疗计划，这些计划不仅仅是围绕同理心，而是更多地围绕学习社会规则，并说服人们实际上亲社会是获得生活想要的更好的方式。

17:58 And so there’s a real need for tailored treatments to deal with especially certain kinds of personality traits, dark personality traits, to try and convince people, basically, that being pro-social is the better path, rather than just going hard on empathy and things that they don’t maybe also see as faults with themselves.

因此，确实需要量身定制的治疗方法来处理特别是某些类型的人格特征，黑暗的人格特征，试图说服人们，基本上，亲社会是更好的道路，而不是仅仅强求同理心和他们可能不认为是自己的错误的事情。

Is there a psychological cost to empathizing with so-called monsters?

同情所谓的怪物会产生心理成本吗？

You referenced Nietzsche in the book, you know, “Gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes into you.” If you study, quote unquote, “evil,” or study monsters, you may become that.

你在书中引用了尼采，你知道，“凝视深渊，深渊凝视着你。”如果你研究“邪恶”，或者研究怪物，你可能会成为那样。

18:21 Is there a danger of that?

有这样的危险吗？

I don’t think so.

我不这么认为。

I think that’s what people fear.

我认为这就是人们所害怕的。

So, a lot of the Nietzsche quotes I use are…

所以，我使用的很多尼采名言都是……

some of them I like because they speak to the chapters I write about, and the issues I write about.

其中一些我喜欢，因为它们涉及我所写的章节和我所写的问题。

But some of them I also like because they are how people think about evil and people who are labeled evil.

但其中一些我也喜欢，因为他们是人们对邪恶和被贴上邪恶标签的人的看法。

And I do think with gazing into the abyss and the abyss gazing back, it’s more of a…

我确实认为凝视深渊和深渊回望，这更像是……

You’re trying to find it.

你正在努力寻找它。

And that’s why in some ways that doesn’t work actually, because it isn’t a total blank.

这就是为什么在某些方面这实际上不起作用，因为它并不是完全空白。

It isn’t the abyss.

这不是深渊。

19:09 There are in fact things that you can see, even if it’s just superficially, and patterns you can recognize to help you and key decision-makers, especially in legal settings, make better decisions around people like this.

事实上，有些事情是你可以看到的，即使只是表面上的，你可以识别出一些模式来帮助你和关键决策者，特别是在法律环境中，围绕这样的人做出更好的决策。

So, when they see these patterns, they act a better way.

因此，当他们看到这些模式时，他们会采取更好的行动。

So, I get asked a lot as a criminal psychologist, “Do you carry the cases that you deal with around with you?” Some of the cases involve huge amounts of witnesses, huge amounts of potential victims, and so in these cases there are very visceral descriptions sometimes of heinous crimes.

因此，作为一名犯罪心理学家，我经常被问到：“你随身携带着你处理的案件吗？”有些案件涉及大量证人、大量潜在受害者，因此在这些案件中，有时会对令人发指的罪行进行非常内心的描述。

And I think that as someone who does this work, you can’t be someone who sees it as anything other than a puzzle.

我认为，作为从事这项工作的人，你不可能将其视为一个谜题。

19:55 So, you have to look at it and go, “Here’s the different pieces of information.

所以，你必须查看它并说：“这是不同的信息。

What I am doing is pattern recognition.

我正在做的是模式识别。

I’m not here to emotionally invest in each of these victims or potential victims.

我来这里并不是为了对每个受害者或潜在受害者进行情感投资。

That’s not my role.

那不是我的角色。

There are therapists for that.

有治疗师。

There are other people who do that work.

还有其他人做这项工作。

I am here working with the police.

我在这里和警察一起工作。

I’m here working with lawyers.

我在这里和律师一起工作。

I’m here looking at it more objectively to see how this all fits together.” And so I think that’s how I engage with it.

我在这里更客观地看待它，看看这一切是如何结合在一起的。”所以我认为这就是我参与其中的方式。

I see it as this puzzle that I’m trying to figure out.

我把它看作是我试图解开的谜题。

I worry for my own brain that when I confront people and see them as a puzzle, which I do, I see the beauty in the puzzle.

我为自己的大脑担心，当我面对人们并将他们视为一个谜题时（我确实这么做了），我看到了谜题中的美丽。

All the puzzles look beautiful to me.

所有的谜题对我来说都很漂亮。

20:33 I’m sometimes like a Prince Myshkin character from The Idiot by Dostoevsky, where you just see…

有时我就像陀思妥耶夫斯基《白痴》中梅什金王子的角色，在那里你会看到……

It’s not the good in people, but the beauty in the puzzle.

这不是人的优点，而是拼图中的美。

And I think you can lose your footing on the moral landscape if you see the beauty in everything a bit too much.

我认为，如果你过多地看到一切事物的美丽，你可能会在道德领域失去立足点。

Because everyone is interesting.

因为每个人都很有趣。

Everyone is complicated.

每个人都很复杂。

It’s the classic scientist response as well to what other people in society go, “Ooh.” They go, you know, “This is horrible,” or, “This atrocious thing has happened,” or, “This shocking, existential crisis-inducing thing I’ve just found is, you know, giving me an existential crisis.” And scientists instead go, “Oh, wow!” And you can sort of see the delight in discovery as well.

这也是科学家对社会上其他人发出的“哦”的经典反应。他们会说，“这太可怕了”，或者“这件残暴的事情发生了”，或者“我刚刚发现的这件令人震惊的、引发生存危机的事情，你知道，给我带来了生存危机。”相反，科学家们会说：“哦，哇！”你也可以看到发现的乐趣。

21:19 And I think sometimes scientists read as callous because we enjoy this discovery of knowledge and the discovery of insights.

我认为有时候科学家们读起来很冷酷，因为我们喜欢这种知识的发现和见解的发现。

And it just feels like this little light bulb has gone off and you go, “Oh, I understand a tiny bit more about the human experience or about the world around us.” And I think it must be similar.

感觉就像这个小灯泡熄灭了，你会说：“哦，我对人类经验或我们周围的世界有了更多的了解。”我认为它一定是相似的。

I don’t know that I feel or worry that I sort of become more, quote unquote, “evil.” I think it’s more that you add this nuance, which I guess sometimes can be estranging to other people.

我不知道我是否感觉或担心我变得更加“邪恶”。我认为你应该添加这种细微差别，我想有时这可能会使其他人感到疏远。

So, there’s that.

所以，就是这样。

So, when you speak with others, sometimes…

所以，当你和别人说话的时候，有时...

Like, even when I say, “We shouldn’t use the word evil,” people go, “No, but you have to.

就像，即使当我说，“我们不应该使用邪恶这个词，”人们也会说，“不，但你必须这样做。

Does that mean you’re trivializing things?” And the answer is, no, I’m not trivializing.

这是否意味着你正在轻视事情？”答案是，不，我并没有小题大做。

I’m just trying to understand.

我只是想了解一下。

22:01 Also, sympathizing or being empathetic towards people whom others have written off is always going to get that response from some people.

此外，同情或同情那些被别人忽视的人总是会得到一些人的回应。

And, I mean, there are real questions around whom we’re platforming and what that has and what role we have as content creators, both of us, of the people we talk about, how we cover them.

而且，我的意思是，存在一些真正的问题，围绕着我们正在为谁提供平台，它有什么作用，以及我们作为内容创建者（我们俩，我们谈论的人）的角色，以及我们如何覆盖他们。

I often come across this in true crime work that I do, because I get asked to do TV shows.

我经常在我从事的真实犯罪工作中遇到这种情况，因为我被要求出演电视节目。

I host TV shows, and I host BBC podcasts.

我主持电视节目，也主持 BBC 播客。

And there’s always the question of sometimes people commit murder to become famous.

总有一个问题是，有时人们会为了出名而杀人。

And should it be a blanket ban that we don’t cover those cases, or should we cover those cases but in a different way, or should we anonymize them?

是否应该全面禁止我们不报道这些案件，或者我们应该以不同的方式报道这些案件，或者我们应该将它们匿名？

So, it doesn’t mean that you should never cover that case.

因此，这并不意味着您永远不应该承保这种情况。

22:42 It just means that you need to think about it.

这只是意味着你需要考虑一下。

Speaking of which, you’ve done a lot of really great stuff, podcast shows.

说到这里，你做了很多非常棒的事情，播客节目。

One of them is Bad People Podcast.

其中之一是坏人播客。

You co-host it.

你们共同主持。

It has over 100 episodes, each covering a crime.

它有 100 多集，每集都涉及犯罪。

What’s maybe the most disturbing crime you’ve covered?

您报道过的最令人不安的犯罪可能是什么？

One of the most disturbing crimes that we covered on Bad People, and just to be clear, Bad People, much like the title Evil, is sort of tongue in cheek, where the idea is it’s people whom we refer to as bad people.

我们在《坏人》中报道的最令人不安的罪行之一，需要澄清的是，《坏人》就像标题《邪恶》一样，有点开玩笑，意思是指那些我们称为坏人的人。

And then it’s always a question of, like, who are these, quote unquote, “bad people,” and are we all capable of doing these terrible things?

然后总是一个问题，比如，这些人是谁，直接引用，“坏人”，我们都有能力做这些可怕的事情吗？

But one of the most, certainly, problematic, dark cases that we covered was the Robert Pickton case.

但我们所报道的最有问题的黑暗案件之一无疑是罗伯特·皮克顿案。

23:26 And the episodes are called Piggy’s Palace, because that was the nickname for the farm where Robert Pickton brought victims whom he had kidnapped, and then he killed them, and he did terrible things to their bodies.

这些剧集被称为“猪猪宫”，因为这是农场的昵称，罗伯特·皮克顿在那里带来了他绑架的受害者，然后杀死了他们，并对他们的身体做了可怕的事情。

And rumors have it, certainly, that he fed some of these victims to pigs.

当然，有传言称他将其中一些受害者喂猪。

Now, one of the reasons I covered that case is actually because it was influential in my own career.

现在，我报道这个案例的原因之一实际上是因为它对我自己的职业生涯产生了影响。

So, Robert Pickton is one of the most famous Canadian serial killers of all time.

因此，罗伯特·皮克顿是加拿大有史以来最著名的连环杀手之一。

And as I was doing my undergrad at Simon Fraser University in Canada, I was being taught by someone called Stephen Hart.

当我在加拿大西蒙弗雷泽大学读本科时，我的老师是一个叫斯蒂芬·哈特的人。

And Stephen Hart was an expert witness on the Robert Pickton trial, and so he was keeping us abreast of some of the developments of what he was covering.

斯蒂芬·哈特是罗伯特·皮克顿审判的专家证人，因此他让我们了解他所报道的一些进展。

24:10 And I found it so interesting, and I loved Stephen Hart as a person, and he seemed to have this sense of humor, this gallows humor, around it all, despite being faced with one of the arguably worst people in Canadian history.

我发现这很有趣，我喜欢斯蒂芬·哈特这个人，他似乎有这种幽默感，这种绞刑架上的幽默感，尽管面对的是加拿大历史上可以说是最糟糕的人之一。

And I thought that that was so interesting, that someone could be so nice and so kind and so wonderful, and be an expert witness for these kinds of people.

我觉得这太有趣了，有人可以如此友善、如此善良、如此美妙，并成为这类人的专家证人。

And so that’s one of the reasons I went into the field is because of this case as well.

所以这也是我进入这个领域的原因之一也是因为这个案例。

And so we had him on the show.

所以我们让他参加了节目。

So, he came onto Bad People, and we interviewed him for it.

所以，他来到了《坏人》节目，我们为此采访了他。

All right, and he has done, I imagine, a lot of really difficult cases.

好吧，我想他已经解决了很多非常困难的案件。

Yes.

是的。

24:46 He’s done a lot of difficult cases, as have other researchers like Elizabeth Loftus, who’s one of the main founders of the area of false memory research, which is what I also do.

他完成了很多困难的案例，其他研究人员也做过类似的工作，比如伊丽莎白·洛夫特斯（Elizabeth Loftus），她是错误记忆研究领域的主要创始人之一，这也是我所做的。

I do research on memory and false memory and witness statements.

我研究记忆、错误记忆和证人陈述。

And Elizabeth Loftus has also been a recent expert for the Ghislaine Maxwell case.

伊丽莎白·洛夫特斯 (Elizabeth Loftus) 最近也是吉斯莱恩·麦克斯韦尔 (Ghislaine Maxwell) 案件的专家。

She was in the press.

她出现在新闻界。

And so she has worked with lawyers to educate the court on memory in lots of really, really controversial cases.

因此，她与律师合作，在许多非常非常有争议的案件中对法庭进行记忆教育。

But the way she would explain it is that it’s still her role to just train people and teach people on how memory works.

但她的解释是，她的职责仍然是训练人们并教人们记忆如何运作。

She’s not there to decide whether people are guilty or innocent, but she is there to help people distinguish between fact and fiction when it comes to how our memories work or don’t.

她不是来决定人们有罪还是无辜，但她的作用是帮助人们在我们的记忆如何发挥作用时区分事实和虚构。

So what kind of person feeds their victims to pigs?

那么什么样的人会把受害者喂猪呢？

25:32 What’s interesting about that psychology?

这种心理学有什么有趣的地方？

The psychology about Robert Pickton?

罗伯特·皮克顿的心理学？

25:38 I mean, he was a tricky person because I think he was profoundly lonely, and this is something we see with a lot of serial killers is that they have this loneliness, which I think not only contributes to them committing the crimes in the first place, but also allows them to get away with things because they don’t have as much of a social network or any social network that is helping them to do what’s called reality monitoring, to understand what’s true and what’s not.

我的意思是，他是一个很狡猾的人，因为我认为他非常孤独，我们在很多连环杀手身上看到的就是他们有这种孤独感，我认为这不仅导致他们首先犯罪，而且还让他们能够逃脱惩罚，因为他们没有那么多的社交网络或任何社交网络来帮助他们进行所谓的现实监控，了解什么是真实的，什么是虚假的。

And so when you see people get radicalized in their own thoughts, whether that’s in the sense of things like schizophrenia where you’ve got psychosis, you’ve got delusions, maybe command hallucinations.

因此，当你看到人们的思想变得激进时，无论是精神分裂症这样的疾病，你会出现精神病、妄想，甚至可能出现幻觉。

26:16 That’s when you think you’re hearing voices and someone is telling you that you have to do something, usually something harmful to other people.

当你认为你听到声音并且有人告诉你你必须做某事时，通常是对其他人有害的事情。

And if you don’t follow those, you will hear those voices forever.

如果你不遵循这些，你将永远听到这些声音。

They’re profoundly distressing, and they are one of the aspects of schizophrenia that if you have, it does make you more prone to violence.

它们非常令人痛苦，而且是精神分裂症的一个方面，如果你患有精神分裂症，它确实会让你更容易遭受暴力。

And so for these kinds of cases, if you don’t have someone intervening, whether that’s a family member or a therapist saying, “How can you tell whether this thought is real?” Maybe that thought.

因此，对于这类情况，如果没有人介入，无论是家庭成员还是治疗师，都会说：“你如何判断这个想法是否真实？”也许是这样的想法。

Maybe you’re not hearing that voice, right?

也许你没有听到那个声音，对吧？

Maybe that aspect of what you’re thinking isn’t true and bringing you back closer to reality.

也许你所想的那个方面并不真实，并让你更接近现实。

26:54 You can just wander off to whatever alternate universe that you might live in in your head, and it’s the same with radicalization in other contexts is that you see that people who drift more and more into a certain group that has certain beliefs that are maybe divorced from the evidence, divorced from reality.

你可以随意漫游到你脑海中可能生活的任何另一个宇宙，这与其他情况下的激进化是一样的，你看到人们越来越多地陷入某个群体，他们拥有某些可能脱离证据、脱离现实的信念。

You can see that people will get more extreme over time, and unless you have a tether that brings you back, that allows you to do reality monitoring, it’s going to be very difficult to find your way out of that.

你可以看到，随着时间的推移，人们会变得更加极端，除非你有一根绳子把你带回来，允许你进行现实监控，否则很难找到摆脱困境的出路。

So with serial killers, we find this reality monitoring problem, and I think part of that’s related to the lack of social networks that people have.

因此，对于连环杀手，我们发现了现实监控问题，我认为部分原因与人们缺乏社交网络有关。

That’s fascinating.

这很有趣。

27:29 So that’s one important component of serial killers.

所以这是连环杀手的重要组成部分之一。

What else can we say about the psychology?

关于心理学我们还能说什么？

What motivates them?

是什么激励他们？

So if you look at some of the famous serial killers, Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, Jeffrey Dahmer, are there other things we could say about their psychology that motivates them?

那么，如果你看看一些著名的连环杀手，比如特德·邦迪、约翰·韦恩·盖西、杰弗里·达默，我们是否还可以对他们的心理动机说些什么呢？

So interesting, the tether to reality.

如此有趣，与现实的联系。

Loneliness is a part of the human condition.

孤独是人类状况的一部分。

It is, in fact, one of its side effects is you can get untethered.

事实上，它的副作用之一就是你可以不受束缚。

And then with some of these brains, I guess the untethered goes to some dark place.

然后，我猜想，有了这些大脑中的一些，不受束缚的人就会去到某个黑暗的地方。

The untethered goes to a dark place, and it then is often combined with some of these other dark tetrad traits.

不受束缚的人会去一个黑暗的地方，然后它常常与其他一些黑暗四分体特征结合在一起。

28:03 So you’ve got someone who maybe is high on psychopathy, low on empathy, someone who’s high on sadism, someone who thinks that it’s okay to pursue your own goals.

所以你可能会遇到一个精神变态程度高、同理心程度低的人，一个施虐狂程度高的人，一个认为追求自己的目标是可以的。

And your own goal can be, like with Jeffrey Dahmer, you can be wanting to create the perfect partner, which in some ways seems to be what he was trying to do by killing people and piecing them together and sewing up a sort of new version.

你自己的目标可能是，就像杰弗里·达默一样，你可能想要创造一个完美的伴侣，从某种程度上来说，这似乎就是他试图通过杀人并将他们拼凑在一起并缝制出一种新版本来实现的目标。

There’s something in that where I can’t help but go, “That’s so sad.” I don’t go, “Oh my God, how awful.” Of course, it’s atrocious.

我情不自禁地说：“这太悲伤了。”我不会说：“天哪，太可怕了。”当然，这是残酷的。

Of course, it’s heinous, but I have this real sympathy for that, and I think that’s important for us to have, though.

当然，这是令人发指的，但我对此表示真正的同情，而且我认为这对我们来说很重要。

28:54 And not to say, “I can’t relate to this person at all,” but to say, “That is an extreme manifestation of something I have felt, and the difference between me engaging in that and this person engaging in that are these other factors.” But the core is in all of us.

并不是说，“我根本无法与这个人产生共鸣”，而是说，“这是我所感受的某种极端表现，而我参与其中和这个人参与其中的区别在于这些其他因素。”但核心就在我们所有人身上。

Do you think all of us are capable of evil, of some of the things we label as evil?

你认为我们所有人都有能力作恶，做一些我们标记为邪恶的事情吗？

I think all of us are capable of doing basically the worst things we can imagine.

我认为我们所有人基本上都有能力做我们能想象到的最糟糕的事情。

29:16 And one of the reasons I think that is because you can see neighbors turning on each other, especially if you look historically at the start of wars or big political moments where you have people who would have called each other friends turning each other in to the police, killing each other, doing terrible things.

我认为原因之一是因为你可以看到邻居之间互相攻击，特别是如果你回顾一下历史上战争开始或重大政治时刻，那些本可以称彼此为朋友的人却互相向警察举报，互相残杀，做着可怕的事情。

So I think all it takes is to become convinced that the people you think are your friends are actually your enemies, whether that’s just in your own world or in a larger political national landscape.

因此，我认为所需要的就是要确信，你认为是朋友的人实际上是你的敌人，无论是在你自己的世界还是在更大的政治国家格局中。

I don’t think it takes all that much for us to be capable of doing terrible things.

我认为我们不需要付出太多的努力就能做出可怕的事情。

29:51 But that’s also why it’s really important when things are good and when you’re not at war and when you have the capacity to think deeply about important issues to train your mind on these thoughts of knowing that things like loneliness can manifest in these extreme ways, that things like jealousy and aggression, that they can turn into murder, that they can turn into these horrible versions.

但这也是为什么当事情顺利、当你没有处于战争状态时、当你有能力深入思考重要问题时，训练你的思维，让你知道孤独之类的东西可以以这些极端的方式表现出来，嫉妒和攻击之类的东西可以变成谋杀，它们可以变成这些可怕的版本，这是非常重要的。

And to then also spot the red flags if you start going down that path.

如果你开始沿着这条路走下去，也要发现危险信号。

I think if we don’t rehearse evil, if you will, we are much more likely to engage in it, especially in those moments where we don’t have much time or energy to really think about what we’re doing.

我认为，如果我们不演练邪恶，如果你愿意的话，我们更有可能参与其中，尤其是在我们没有太多时间或精力去真正思考我们正在做的事情的时候。

Yeah, I really appreciate the way you think and the way you talk about this.

是的，我真的很欣赏你的思考方式和谈论这个问题的方式。

30:30 Listening to history, when I’m reading history books, I imagine myself doing the thing I’m reading about, and I almost always can imagine that, like when I’m being honest with myself.

聆听历史，当我阅读历史书时，我想象自己正在做我正在读的事情，而且我几乎总是可以想象到这一点，就像当我对自己诚实时一样。

And it’s important to admit that to ourselves.

向我们自己承认这一点很重要。

30:49 And research on murder fantasies finds that most men have fantasized about killing someone, about 70% in two studies.

对谋杀幻想的研究发现，大多数男性都曾幻想过杀人，在两项研究中这一比例约为 70%。

And most women as well.

大多数女性也是如此。

More than 50% of women have fantasized about killing somebody.

超过 50% 的女性曾幻想过杀人。

So murder fantasies are incredibly common, and certainly according to some researchers, that’s a good thing.

因此，谋杀幻想非常普遍，根据一些研究人员的说法，这当然是一件好事。

Being able to rehearse and think through doing the most terrible things is a great dress rehearsal for also how we don’t want to live our lives.

能够排练并思考如何做最可怕的事情，这也是对我们不想过的生活的一次很好的彩排。

And only if you are able to fully think through, “What would I actually be like if I was engaging in this?

只有当你能够充分思考时，“如果我从事这件事，我实际上会是什么样子？

What would I be thinking?

我会怎么想？

Who would I be with?

我会和谁在一起？

What would be my the group that I’m charging against this other person?

我要指控这个人的群体是什么？

31:34 You know, who am I there with?” As you said, like really putting yourself in the shoes of these people who have done terrible things.

你知道我和谁在一起吗？”正如你所说，就像真正将自己置于这些做了可怕事情的人的立场上。

That is how you also realize that you do not want those consequences.

这就是你也意识到你不想要这些后果的方式。

And so yeah, you maybe want to murder this person, but you don’t really want to murder this person.

所以，是的，你可能想谋杀这个人，但你并不是真的想谋杀这个人。

That’s that intuitive sort of animalistic brain coming in.

这就是那种直觉的动物性大脑的出现。

But then luckily, we have higher reasoning that goes, “Actually, if you think this through, that’s a pretty terrible consequence for yourself.

但幸运的是，我们有更高的推理：“实际上，如果你仔细考虑一下，这对你自己来说是一个非常可怕的后果。

So the better thing to do is not to murder this person.” So I think it’s adaptive to be able to fantasize and think about these things.

所以最好的办法就是不要谋杀这个人。”所以我认为能够幻想和思考这些事情是适应性的。

32:09 Obviously, if you start getting to a point where you’re ruminating and you’re going in these circles where you’re constantly fantasizing about doing dark things, especially to a specific person, I’d always advise seeing somebody, to talk to a psychologist, for example.

显然，如果你开始沉思，并且进入了不断幻想做黑暗事情的圈子，尤其是对某个特定的人，我总是建议去看某人，例如与心理学家交谈。

Because that then does become a risk factor for acting on those dark fantasies.

因为这确实成为实施那些黑暗幻想的风险因素。

But up to that point, if it’s just a fleeting thought or something that sort of in one day you had these thoughts, that is totally healthy, I would say.

但到目前为止，如果这只是一个转瞬即逝的想法，或者某一天你有这些想法，那是完全健康的，我会说。

And also, I think it’s useful to simulate or think through what it would take to say no in that situation.

而且，我认为模拟或思考在这种情况下如何拒绝是很有用的。

32:35 Meaning, once you’re able to imagine yourself doing evil things, you have to imagine the difficult act of resisting.

意思是，一旦你能够想象自己在做坏事，你就必须想象抵抗的困难行为。

A lot of people think they would resist in Nazi Germany.

很多人认为他们会在纳粹德国进行抵抗。

Well, most people didn’t, and there’s a reason for that.

好吧，大多数人没有，这是有原因的。

It’s not easy.

这并不容易。

Same reason, I’ve seen this.

同样的道理，我也见过这个。

If something bad is happening on a public street, most people, it’s the bystander effect.

如果公共街道上发生了不好的事情，对大多数人来说，这就是旁观者效应。

Most people just stand there and watch.

大多数人只是站在那里观看。

I’ve seen it once in my life.

我一生中见过一次。

This is humans, so it’s actually you want to simulate stepping up.

这是人类，所以实际上是你要模拟前进。

Yeah, so it’s also been called the heroic imagination.

是的，所以它也被称为英雄想象。

33:19 Someone who has studied evil, quote unquote, at length, is called Philip Zimbardo.

菲利普·津巴多（Philip Zimbardo）是一位研究过邪恶的人。

He did the Stanford Prison Experiment, and that was an experiment which is, I mean, it’s now been torn apart in various ways.

他做了斯坦福监狱实验，我的意思是，这个实验现在已经被以各种方式拆散了。

It was absolutely influential for psychology.

它对心理学绝对有影响。

It’s where participants were randomly assigned whether they would be prisoners or guards in a mock prison experiment, and then for a number of days, they were told to do various things.

在模拟监狱实验中，参与者被随机分配是囚犯还是看守，然后在接下来的几天里，他们被要求做各种事情。

And it got out of control, and the guards went way over what they were supposed to be doing, and they effectively started pseudo-torturing some of these inmates or these pretend inmates.

事情失去了控制，警卫们超出了他们应该做的事情，他们实际上开始对其中一些囚犯或假装囚犯进行伪酷刑。

34:00 And the whole thing had to be stopped prematurely, but it was really fundamental in showing how just by randomly being assigned into guard, the person in charge, or inmate, you can, within a matter of days, have a completely different way of thinking about one another.

整个事情必须提前停止，但这确实很重要，因为它表明，通过随机分配到警卫、负责人或囚犯，你可以在几天之内对彼此产生完全不同的思考方式。

And so Philip Zimbardo has also spoken at length about evil and that all of us are capable of it in the right circumstances, but he also is a big proponent of what he calls the heroic imagination.

因此，菲利普·津巴多也详细谈到了邪恶，我们所有人在适当的情况下都有能力邪恶，但他也是他所谓的英雄想象力的大力支持者。

And the heroic imagination is really what the purpose of everything I do is.

而英雄的想象确实就是我所做一切的目的。

The purpose of what I do isn’t just to go, “Ooh, this is curious,” and to stop there.

我所做的事情的目的不仅仅是去说“哦，这很奇怪”，然后就到此为止。

The point is to then prevent it, and to prevent it in ourselves because that’s I think ultimately what has to happen.

关键是要阻止它，并在我们自己身上阻止它，因为我认为这最终会发生。

34:39 You can’t do a top-down sort of government-level approach to trying to be so tough on crime that no one will ever commit crime.

你不能采取自上而下的政府层面的方法来严厉打击犯罪，以至于没有人会犯罪。

That’s impossible.

那是不可能的。

But you can change, sort of to say it in a tacky way, the hearts and minds of individuals to recognize the pathways towards evil and to go, “Wait, I’m off track.

但你可以用一种俗气的方式来说，改变人们的心灵和思想，让他们认识到通往邪恶的道路，然后说：“等等，我偏离了轨道。

I don’t want to go this way, and I’m going to stop myself here, and here’s how I can find my way back.” And so the heroic imagination is exercising that.

我不想走这条路，我要在这里停下来，这样我才能找到回去的路。”所以英雄的想象力正在发挥作用。

I see someone on the street.

我在街上看到有人。

How do I make sure that they’re okay?

我如何确保他们没问题？

How do I not become a bystander?

怎样才能不成为旁观者呢？

And actually, the bystander stuff is interesting because there was a really famous case, the murder of Kitty Genovese, and there were all of these both ear and eyewitnesses.

事实上，旁观者的事情很有趣，因为有一个非常著名的案件，基蒂·吉诺维斯被谋杀，所有这些都是耳朵和目击者。

35:21 So an ear witness is someone who just hears things, and an eyewitness is someone who sees the crime happening, and they didn’t intervene in the murder of this woman.

所以，目击者是指仅仅听到事情的人，而目击者是指看到犯罪发生的人，他们没有介入谋杀这个女人。

And so this case was often taken as this almost example of, “Look how terrible human beings are.

因此，这个案例常常被视为“看看人类是多么可怕”的例子。

We just walk by.

我们只是走过去。

We don’t care about what’s happening to strangers on the streets.” And actually, what’s happened since is that there’s been lots of other bystander experiments, and they have not substantiated this.

我们不在乎街上陌生人发生了什么。”事实上，自那以后发生的事情是，还有很多其他旁观者实验，但他们还没有证实这一点。

So we need to be very careful with looking at these extreme cases and going, “How horrible that this happened to this one person,” and it is, but that doesn’t mean that that’s always how it happens.

因此，我们需要非常小心地看待这些极端案例，并说“这件事发生在这个人身上是多么可怕”，事实确实如此，但这并不意味着事情总是这样发生。

And so actually, what we find in bystander research is that most of the time, bystanders do intervene.

事实上，我们在旁观者研究中发现，大多数时候，旁观者确实会进行干预。

36:01 It’s just when there has already been a crowd that has accumulated, you read the room, and you assume, “Well, nobody else has intervened yet, and so it must not be a real problem.” That desire to not stand out in a negative way is often what hinders heroism.

就在人群已经聚集的时候，你看了一眼房间，然后你就会想，“好吧，还没有其他人介入，所以这一定不是一个真正的问题。”不想以消极的方式脱颖而出的愿望往往会阻碍英雄主义。

I mean, that’s why we look at heroes, people who especially risk their own lives to save others, especially strangers.

我的意思是，这就是为什么我们关注英雄，特别是那些冒着生命危险拯救他人，尤其是陌生人的人。

We see them with a sort of respect that nobody else gets, and that’s because we recognize that we might not be capable of that.

我们以一种其他人得不到的尊重来看待他们，那是因为我们认识到我们可能没有能力做到这一点。

If I saw a stranger drowning in a river, would I really risk my life jumping in the river to maybe save them?

如果我看到一个陌生人在河里溺水，我真的会冒着生命危险跳进河里去救他们吗？

I think that’s a big question mark.

我认为这是一个很大的问号。

36:43 And so when people do that, especially when people almost have this inherent reaction that they just jump in, they just go for it, that is something that is a really admirable quality, and that we as humans do celebrate, and we should.

因此，当人们这样做时，尤其是当人们几乎有这种固有的反应时，他们就会跳进去，他们就会去做，这是一种非常令人钦佩的品质，我们作为人类确实庆祝，而且我们应该庆祝。

And I think often we should celebrate those incidents more and not the, you know, the bystander moments where we didn’t intervene.

我认为我们通常应该更多地庆祝这些事件，而不是我们没有干预的旁观者时刻。

We should be normalizing intervening.

我们应该使干预正常化。

And again, again, this idea of heroic imagination, actually simulating, imagining yourself standing up and saving the person when a crowd is watching, they’re drowning, to be the one that dives in, tries to help.

再一次，再一次，这种英雄想象的想法，实际上是在模拟，想象当一群人在看着他们溺水时，你自己站起来拯救那个人，成为那个跳入水中的人，试图提供帮助。

37:07 You mentioned 70% of men and some large percentage of women fantasize about murder, and I also read that you wrote that recidivism for homicide is only 1 to 3%.

你提到70%的男性和相当大比例的女性会幻想谋杀，我还读到你写到杀人累犯率只有1%到3%。

So that raises the question, why do people commit murder?

那么这就提出了一个问题，为什么人们会杀人？

Murder is a really interesting crime because most of the time it’s perpetrated for reasons that we don’t like as a society.

谋杀是一种非常有趣的犯罪，因为大多数时候，谋杀都是出于我们社会不喜欢的原因而发生的。

37:43 So as a person who talks a lot to the news and also to producers who are trying to make true crime shows, who don’t necessarily have a deep understanding of psychology, let’s just say, and who come at you with myths where you go, “Oh, no, we’re not, we’re not going to talk about that.

因此，作为一个经常与新闻交谈的人，以及那些试图制作真实犯罪节目的制片人，他们不一定对心理学有深入的了解，我们可以这么说，当他们带着神话来找你时，“哦，不，我们不会，我们不会谈论这个。

We’re not going to talk about whether or not the mom is to blame for this person killing somebody.” I hate that.

我们不会讨论这个人杀人是否应该归咎于母亲。”我讨厌那样。

That’s one of my least favorite sort of…

这是我最不喜欢的一种……

The trauma narrative of all people who do terrible things must have had a terrible childhood, I think, is really problematic.

我认为，所有做过可怕事情的人都一定有一个可怕的童年的创伤叙述确实是有问题的。

38:22 What really happens in murder most of the time, which is not what you see on TV because it’s really boring, is it’s a fight that gets out of control.

大多数时候，谋杀中真正发生的事情是一场失控的战斗，这不是你在电视上看到的，因为它真的很无聊。

And if you look at the real reasons stated, it’s things like, “This person owed me $4, and so I killed him.

如果你看看所陈述的真正原因，就会发现，“这个人欠我 4 美元，所以我杀了他。

This person stole my bike.

这个人偷了我的自行车。

This person owed me…” It’s these really stupid reasons, and it is just this bad decision in the moment, an overreaction to a fight, to an argument, and it wasn’t planned.

这个人欠我的……”就是这些非常愚蠢的理由，这只是当时这个错误的决定，对争吵、争吵的过度反应，而且这不是计划好的。

It’s not some psychopath sharpening their knives, waiting for months to try and kill this person.

这并不是某个精神病患者磨刀不误，等了几个月才试图杀死这个人。

And we don’t like that because there’s something called the victimization gap, which is that the impact of this extreme situation on the perpetrator, there’s a huge gap between that and the impact on the victim and their family.

我们不喜欢这样，因为有一种叫做受害差距的东西，即这种极端情况对肇事者的影响与对受害者及其家人的影响之间存在巨大的差距。

39:08 So the victim loses a life, whereas the perpetrator, sure, they get imprisoned, but that…

所以受害者失去了生命，而肇事者，当然，他们被监禁了，但是……

At best, right?

充其量，对吧？

If you will, in terms of justice.

如果你愿意的话，就正义而言。

But they don’t have the same kinds of consequences, and we don’t like that.

但它们不会产生同样的后果，我们不喜欢这样。

We like things that have extreme consequences to have extreme reasons.

我们喜欢产生极端后果的事情有极端的原因。

And so that’s why I think there’s this real desire to show serial killers and to show people who are, in fact, planning murders for a really long time and then engage in them rather than this fight that goes out of control or someone drink-driving, or someone who is…

所以这就是为什么我认为人们真正渴望展示连环杀手，展示那些事实上长期计划谋杀然后参与其中的人，而不是这场失控的战斗或某人酒后驾车，或者某人......

I mean, unfortunately, intimate partner homicide is also one of those situations that is common, one of the top four reasons for murder as well.

我的意思是，不幸的是，亲密伴侣被杀也是常见的情况之一，也是谋杀的四大原因之一。

39:49 But that’s not the almost glamorized version that we see of murder online or that we see in the news.

但这并不是我们在网上或新闻中看到的谋杀案的近乎美化的版本。

So I think it’s always important to talk about murder as something that is rarely inherent to an individual.

因此，我认为将谋杀视为个人很少固有的事情来谈论总是很重要的。

Very few people want to murder.

很少有人想杀人。

They might fantasize about it, but they don’t want to go through with it.

他们可能会幻想它，但他们不想经历它。

And very few people who do engage in murder wanted to do it in that instance, never mind again.

很少有真正参与谋杀的人愿意在这种情况下这样做，更不用说再次这样做了。

I think in general, we have the way that we look at lots of crimes upside down.

我认为总的来说，我们看待许多犯罪的方式是颠倒的。

So we put murderers in prison for a really long time because we think that that’s justice, which is, sure, that’s one version where it’s, you know, an eye for an eye kind of.

所以我们把杀人犯关进监狱很长一段时间，因为我们认为这就是正义，当然，这就是一种以眼还眼的版本。

You know, life for life.

你知道，一生一世。

40:30 There’s obviously the more extreme version of that, which is the death penalty, which I don’t adhere to, but I could see the rationalization of, well, you stole somebody else’s life, so you don’t deserve to have one.

显然有更极端的版本，那就是死刑，我不遵守死刑，但我可以看到这样的合理化，嗯，你偷了别人的生命，所以你不应该拥有一个生命。

But there’s also the other side, which is if we’re looking at prevention, murder is really…

但还有另一面，如果我们着眼于预防，谋杀确实是……

Like, they’re not going to…

就像，他们不会……

People aren’t going to go out and murder again.

人们不会再出去杀人了。

So that is…

所以那就是……

That’s a really low risk in terms of recidivism, actually.

实际上，就累犯而言，这是一个非常低的风险。

And high risk are things like fraud and elder abuse and sexual violence.

高风险包括欺诈、虐待老年人和性暴力等。

And so in some ways, sometimes our sanctions are upside down in terms of how we can actually make society safer, and they’re in line more just with how we perceive justice to work.

因此，在某些方面，有时我们的制裁在如何真正让社会更安全方面是颠倒的，而且它们更符合我们对正义运作的看法。

41:07 So there are big fundamental questions about how we organize our justice systems and what we want them to be for.

因此，关于我们如何组织司法系统以及我们希望它们的用途，存在一些重大的基本问题。

Can you just linger on that a bit?

你能稍微停留一下吗？

41:13 So how should we think about everything you just described for how our criminal justice system forgives?

那么，我们应该如何思考您刚才描述的关于我们的刑事司法系统如何宽恕的一切？

If they are very unlikely to murder again, how would you reform the criminal justice system?

如果他们不太可能再次谋杀，您将如何改革刑事司法系统？

I think forgiveness is up to the victims’ families, and quite often when you speak with victims’ families, there is this divide where you have some who are much more keen on something called restorative justice, which is where they…

我认为宽恕取决于受害者家属，当你与受害者家属交谈时，经常会出现这种分歧，有些人更热衷于所谓的恢复性司法，这就是他们……

41:28 What they want is for the person to apologize, the perpetrator to apologize, to explain how it happened.

他们想要的是当事人道歉，肇事者道歉，解释事情是如何发生的。

Also, quite often, I mean, you look at some of the other consequences in the other context, it’s sort of like teenage boys who are part of gangs, for example, is the other context.

另外，我的意思是，你经常会在其他背景下看到一些其他后果，这有点像加入帮派的十几岁男孩，例如，是其他背景。

And it’s a teenage boy killing another teenage boy.

这是一个十几岁的男孩杀死了另一个十几岁的男孩。

Like, these are kids, and the parents of a teenage boy understand that.

就像，这些都是孩子，十几岁男孩的父母都明白这一点。

This isn’t…

这不是……

You know, they don’t think of this other perpetrator as this grown man who has…

你知道，他们并不认为另一个肇事者是这个成年男子……

I don’t know.

我不知道。

It’s…

这是……

42:13 I think we think of it as this fight between the parents of both teenage boys in that case, but really, often what parents want is to just understand how this could happen and, in some ways, to allow the other teenage boy to still have a life and to not steal theirs as well, or his as well.

我认为我们将其视为在这种情况下两个十几岁男孩的父母之间的斗争，但实际上，父母通常想要的是了解这种情况是如何发生的，并在某些方面允许另一个十几岁男孩仍然拥有生命，并且不偷走他们的或他的。

So there’s that restorative justice model where forgiveness, I think, belongs to the families.

因此，我认为，在恢复性司法模式中，宽恕属于家庭。

Some families, of course, want the most extreme punishment.

当然，有些家庭希望受到最严厉的惩罚。

That’s also…

这也是……

I can understand how that would be a response that’s triggered if you’ve suffered a severe loss.

我可以理解，如果你遭受了严重的损失，这会是怎样的反应。

But if we’re looking to make society safer, putting people who’ve killed in prison is actually not the answer, right?

但如果我们想让社会变得更安全，把杀人者关进监狱实际上并不是答案，对吧？

42:52 Because if we want society to be safer, it should be based purely on what is most likely to deter crime and who is most likely to engage in it, and that’s where I think we’ve got it upside down.

因为如果我们希望社会变得更安全，它应该纯粹基于什么最有可能阻止犯罪以及谁最有可能参与犯罪，而这就是我认为我们已经颠倒过来的地方。

If I could just stick to The Bad People Podcast, there’s an episode on incels called Black Pill: Are Incels Dangerous?

如果我能坚持看《坏人》播客，有一集关于非自愿者的节目，名为《黑色药丸：非自愿者危险吗？》

43:05 So are they dangerous?

那么它们危险吗？

What’s the psychology of incels?

incels的心理是什么？

So that episode was all about what it means to espouse certain kinds of views, especially about women, and what it means to be in an environment that is fueling the fire of…

因此，这一集的主题是拥护某些观点（尤其是关于女性的观点）意味着什么，以及身处一个助长……之火的环境中意味着什么。

43:15 well, hatred of gender, and the idea of entitlement.

好吧，对性别的仇恨和权利的观念。

So I think one thing that we see often in crimes, of all sorts actually, is this sense of entitlement that drives the perception that I’m allowed to engage in X because of something else.

所以我认为我们在各种犯罪行为中经常看到的一件事是，这种权利感驱使人们认为我因为其他原因而被允许参与某事。

And I deserve to have a life that looks like this, but I don’t, and so I’m going to go take it, or I’m going to go do something to show my dissatisfaction in life.

我应该拥有这样的生活，但我没有，所以我要去接受它，或者我要去做一些事情来表达我对生活的不满。

43:58 And so if you think that all men deserve to have a happy life, sort of a Disney version with a woman at home who’s taking care of the kids, and it’s the sort of white picket fence ideal that we’ve been sold.

所以，如果你认为所有男人都应该拥有幸福的生活，就像迪士尼版本的女人在家照顾孩子，而我们所推销的就是那种白色尖桩篱笆的理想生活。

We have been told that that is what we should have.

我们被告知这是我们应该拥有的。

I understand where it comes from, and the question though is, are we entitled to that, or is that the idea that that’s something we should strive towards?

我理解它的来源，但问题是，我们是否有权这样做，或者这是我们应该努力实现的目标？

And I think the answer is no, nobody’s entitled to a good life.

我认为答案是否定的，没有人有资格过上美好的生活。

I would like to see freedoms and rights manifest in such a way that everyone is able to achieve the kind of life that they themselves want.

我希望看到自由和权利以这样一种方式体现，即每个人都能够实现他们自己想要的生活。

But you’re not entitled to it.

但你无权这样做。

44:38 And so that’s where I think it can get a bit crossed, and we can be sold these lies that are basically impossible for everybody in society to achieve.

所以我认为这可能会让人有点生气，我们可以向我们兜售这些谎言，而这些谎言基本上对社会上的每个人来说都是不可能实现的。

And understandably, people get angry, and if you’re angry and if you feel entitled and if you’re in this group where everyone else is thinking the same way as you, yeah, that can make you dangerous.

可以理解的是，人们会生气，如果你生气，如果你觉得自己有权利，如果你在这个群体中，其他人都和你有同样的想法，是的，这会让你变得危险。

And the internet gives you a mechanism to be your worst self.

互联网为你提供了一种机制，让你成为最糟糕的自己。

And it can reinforce that worst self.

它可以强化最糟糕的自我。

45:03 You see other people saying, “Yeah, I feel the same way.

你看到其他人说：“是的，我也有同样的感觉。

Do you want…

你想要吗……

Do you want me to help you?”

要我帮你吗？

Oh, the internet.

哦，互联网。

45:10 So one more episode, you interviewed the lady Cecilia, who got Tinder Swindled.

又一集，你采访了塞西莉亚女士，她被 Tinder 骗了。

Can you tell what happened with the Tinder Swindle situation?

您能告诉我们 Tinder 诈骗事件发生了什么吗？

So the Tinder Swindler, that was a person who pretended on Tinder to be a rich guy who had this lavish lifestyle, and he would match with women on Tinder, and very quickly love-bomb them.

Tinder骗子，就是一个在Tinder上假装自己是个有钱人，过着奢华生活方式的人，他会在Tinder上与女性配对，并很快对她们进行爱情轰炸。

45:21 So he would send them all kinds of messages and immediately start being very emotional, very sharing, pretend that he’s messaging from his private jet, or actually message from his private jet but pretend that he’s in love with this person very quickly.

因此，他会向他们发送各种消息，并立即开始非常情绪化、非常分享，假装他是从他的私人飞机上发消息，或者实际上是从他的私人飞机上发消息，但假装他很快就爱上了这个人。

And then he would invite women, in this case Cecilia, to very expensive, luxurious dates.

然后他会邀请女性（这里是塞西莉亚）参加非常昂贵、奢华的约会。

So he would whisk them away to Paris, or he would show them his private jet, or he would take them to a really expensive restaurant almost to prove that he, in fact, is this really wealthy guy.

所以他会带他们去巴黎，或者他会带他们参观他的私人飞机，或者他会带他们去一家非常昂贵的餐厅，几乎是为了证明他实际上是一个真正有钱的人。

46:10 And he would simultaneously be building up the story of a future together, and you see this in people who are really problematic in relationships in a lot of ways.

他会同时构建一个共同未来的故事，你可以在那些在很多方面在人际关系上确实存在问题的人身上看到这一点。

I mean, this is not just in scams or in criminal settings, but problematic relationship styles often involve someone who is creating this idea of a future together that you can just see it now.

我的意思是，这不仅存在于诈骗或犯罪环境中，而且有问题的关系风格通常涉及那些正在共同创造这种未来想法的人，而你现在就可以看到它。

You know, “Our kids in the garden running around.

你知道，“我们的孩子在花园里跑来跑去。

You’re the only one for me.” That kind of language, like, almost planning your wedding on the third date.

你是我唯一的人。”那种语言，就像几乎在第三次约会时就计划你的婚礼一样。

46:42 That kind of thing is what he would weaponize, and Cecilia was looking for love.

这种东西就是他要武器化的东西，而塞西莉亚正在寻找爱情。

She wanted all of those things, and so it worked really well.

她想要所有这些东西，所以效果非常好。

And what he ended up doing is defrauding her of lots of money, and she ended up taking out loans, and her family were giving her money to help what he was saying was this critical situation, very classic fraud.

他最终骗了她很多钱，她最终贷款了，她的家人给了她钱来帮助他所说的这种危急情况，非常典型的欺诈行为。

It’s a critical situation where he was being followed, he was under attack, and he needed her to pay for some things.

这是一个危急的情况，他被跟踪，他受到攻击，他需要她支付一些费用。

He needed her to pay for some flights, until she ran out of money, and then she realized that this all was a big fraud.

他需要她支付一些机票费用，直到她的钱花光了，她才意识到这一切都是一个大骗局。

This was a love scam.

这是一场爱情骗局。

47:19 So the reason that we spoke with her is partly to show how it can happen, and I think it’s really important to remind people that this is something everybody is capable of believing.

因此，我们与她交谈的部分原因是为了展示它是如何发生的，我认为提醒人们这是每个人都有能力相信的事情非常重要。

Fraud works because people know what we want to hear, and they tell us the things we want to hear.

欺诈之所以有效，是因为人们知道我们想听什么，并且告诉我们我们想听什么。

And so I think all of us, there’s a tailored version of fraud that could appeal to basically everybody if they have enough information about you.

因此，我认为我们所有人，都有一个量身定制的欺诈版本，如果他们有足够的关于您的信息，它可以吸引基本上每个人。

Yeah, and by the way now, in modern day, AI could probably better and better do that kind of thing.

是的，顺便说一句，在现代，人工智能可能可以做得越来越好。

47:46 Do the tailored version of the story that you want to believe, and love is a topic on which that would be especially effective.

为你想要相信的故事量身定制版本，爱情是一个特别有效的话题。

Yeah, ’cause you’re playing with people’s emotions, and you know that they’re vulnerable in that way.

是的，因为你在玩弄人们的情绪，而且你知道他们在这方面很脆弱。

48:03 And most people want to be loved and want to love, and so it’s a really manipulative way in, and I think it’s really horrible, but it’s also something that we all almost underestimate.

大多数人都想要被爱，想要爱，所以这是一种真正的操纵方式，我认为这真的很可怕，但这也是我们几乎都低估的事情。

So we think, “I would identify fraud.

所以我们认为，“我会识别欺诈行为。

I would know if someone was trying to scam me of money,” until it happens to us, and then we go, “Oh, wait.

我会知道是否有人试图骗我的钱，”直到这种事发生在我们身上，然后我们说，“哦，等等。

That did just happen.” And then we get really embarrassed.

那确实发生了。”然后我们真的很尴尬。

And so I think talking about it is really important, and seeing it as not this thing that happens to dumb people, ’cause that is sometimes how it’s framed.

所以我认为谈论它非常重要，并将其视为不会发生在愚蠢的人身上的事情，因为有时它就是这样被构建的。

It’s like, “Oh, such an idiot.” “She was so gullible.”

就像，“哦，真是个白痴。” “她太容易受骗了。”

48:42 Was she?

她是吗？

Or was she just a nice person who wanted to believe that this person was capable of loving her, which I would hope we all are.

或者她只是一个好人，想要相信这个人有能力爱她，我希望我们都是这样。

Yeah, and I hope she and others that fall victim to that kind of thing don’t become cynical and keep trying.

是的，我希望她和其他成为此类事情受害者的人不要变得愤世嫉俗并继续尝试。

Yeah.

是的。

48:57 Yeah, that’s right.

是的，没错。

That’s right.

这是正确的。

Those kinds of things can really destroy your ability to be vulnerable to the world.

这类事情确实会破坏你对世界脆弱的能力。

48:59 But, I mean, it sounds like this same kind of thing is just commonplace in all kinds of relationships.

但是，我的意思是，听起来类似的事情在各种关系中都很常见。

That’s the puzzle that it could be.

这可能就是谜题。

If you find yourself inside of a toxic relationship with a, quote, “love bombing,” it could be a lot of manipulative, fraud-type of things, right, inside a relationship.

如果你发现自己陷入了一段有毒的关系，引用“爱情轰炸”的话，那么在一段关系中，可能存在很多操纵性、欺诈性的事情。

…In this spectrum.

……在这个范围内。

Well, and coercive control is becoming more of an issue, where that’s when somebody, for example, in a relationship takes control of the finances, and that’s often a man in a relationship.

嗯，强制控制正变得越来越成为一个问题，例如，当一段关系中的某个人控制了财务时，而这个人通常是一段关系中的男人。

49:22 That’s traditionally because it falls often along these gender lines.

传统上这是因为它经常遵循这些性别界限。

But the problem is if that person then starts to weaponize the fact that they’re controlling the finances and starts using words like, “I’m going to give you your allowance,” instead of going, “You’ve paid as much into this as I have, and so this is our shared money,” and starts using that and controlling things and controlling how the other person lives in that relationship, that’s when you get into things that are called coercive control.

但问题是，如果那个人开始将他们控制财务的事实武器化，并开始使用诸如“我要给你零用钱”之类的话语，而不是说“你已经为这件事付出了和我一样多的钱，所以这是我们共同的钱”，并开始使用它并控制事物并控制对方如何在这种关系中生活，那就是当你陷入所谓的强制控制的时候。

And things like jealousy can also be used in that way.

嫉妒之类的东西也可以这样使用。

Is there any way out of that?

有什么办法可以解决这个问题吗？

50:01 Maybe the jealousy study, or is this a vicious downward spiral whenever there are any signs like this that means you’re screwed, get out?

也许是嫉妒研究，或者这是一个恶性循环，只要有任何这样的迹象就意味着你完蛋了，滚吧？

Or is this just the puzzle of the human condition and humans getting together and having to solve that puzzle?

或者这只是人类状况的难题，而人类聚集在一起必须解决这个难题？

I have non-traditional views on jealousy.

我对嫉妒有非传统的看法。

50:22 I’m not a jealousy researcher, but I have done some research on sexuality, and I personally think that jealousy is basically always a red flag because what it means is that the person who is jealous isn’t secure in the relationship, and the reason that they’re not secure in the relationship is either because the relationship is wrong for them or because they are insecure in themselves.

我不是嫉妒研究者，但我对性做了一些研究，我个人认为嫉妒基本上总是一个危险信号，因为这意味着嫉妒的人在关系中不安全，而他们在关系中不安全的原因要么是因为这种关系对他们来说是错误的，要么是因为他们自己没有安全感。

And I don’t think it is a sign of love.

我不认为这是爱的标志。

I don’t think it is a sign of, you know, you want to protect your mate.

我不认为这表明你想保护你的伴侣。

I think it is mostly control, and it’s the desire to control and to possess.

我认为主要是控制欲，是控制欲和占有欲。

And jealousy, we know, is a precursor to intimate partner violence almost always.

我们知道，嫉妒几乎总是亲密伴侣暴力的先兆。

51:01 As in, not all jealousy leads to violence, of course, but all violence has jealousy as a precursor.

当然，并不是所有的嫉妒都会导致暴力，但所有的暴力都有嫉妒作为先兆。

And quite a lot of that is imagined things that the partner is doing, not even based on reality.

其中很多都是合作伙伴正在做的想象的事情，甚至不是基于现实。

Then we go back to our deception detection research, where we’re bad at telling whether someone’s lying or not.

然后我们回到欺骗检测研究，我们不擅长判断某人是否在说谎。

And so if you’re basing how you’re interacting with that person on a faulty lie detector, you’re going to make bad decisions.

因此，如果你根据错误的测谎仪与那个人互动，你就会做出错误的决定。

So, the research also bears out that most people are really bad at monogamy.

因此，研究还证明，大多数人确实不擅长一夫一妻制。

So, most people either have cheated on a significant other, maybe not their current significant other, but a significant other, or have cheated multiple times, and that’s just consistently found in the research.

因此，大多数人要么欺骗过重要的另一半，也许不是他们当前的另一半，而是重要的另一半，要么多次欺骗，而这在研究中一直存在。

So, maybe there’s justification to be jealous?

那么，也许嫉妒是有道理的？

I think it’s the other way around.

我认为恰恰相反。

51:43 I think monogamy is setting us up to fail.

我认为一夫一妻制会让我们走向失败。

51:46 So, I think monogamy is a social construct.

所以，我认为一夫一妻制是一种社会建构。

That’s a nice idea for some people, and I think that at least based on the research on how people actually behave, they’re not actually behaving in a monogamous way.

对于某些人来说这是一个好主意，我认为至少根据对人们实际行为方式的研究，他们实际上并没有以一夫一妻制的方式行事。

If you’re cheating on your partner, that is not monogamy.

如果你欺骗你的伴侣，那就不是一夫一妻制。

That is polyamory, potentially.

这可能是多角恋。

So, the love of multiple people.

所以，多人的爱。

And it’s lying, and it doesn’t have to be that way.

这是在撒谎，但事情本不必如此。

So, I’m polyamorous, and I believe that you can love multiple people.

所以，我是一个多角恋者，我相信你可以爱多个人。

I don’t know that everyone is always going to meet lots of people at the same time that they’re going to love.

我不知道每个人总是会在同一时间遇到很多他们会爱的人。

But I think that there’s been a move towards more people embracing open relationships and non-traditional relationship structures, and I think that is healthy to at least have as an option.

但我认为越来越多的人开始拥抱开放的关系和非传统的关系结构，我认为至少作为一种选择是健康的。

52:28 I think the idea that there’s just one size fits all for relationships is really harmful to a lot of people, and it just doesn’t really work for everybody.

我认为对于人际关系来说只有一种方法的想法对很多人来说确实是有害的，而且它并不真正适合所有人。

Well, if you could just focus in on one component, it seems to me one of the problems is honesty as a hard requirement, and good communication is another hard requirement, because that feels like the prerequisites for avoiding all these problems.

好吧，如果你可以只专注于一个组成部分，在我看来，其中一个问题是诚实作为一项硬性要求，而良好的沟通是另一个硬性要求，因为这感觉像是避免所有这些问题的先决条件。

And I guess with jealousy, what I’m thinking of is actually not an instance of jealousy.

我想，带着嫉妒，我想到的实际上并不是嫉妒的例子。

52:56 …So where you have a feeling of, “I feel left out,” or, “I feel…” It’s more that sort of persistent feeling of, “I am a jealous person.” And that’s where I would say that is usually a red flag.

……所以，如果你有一种感觉，“我感觉被冷落了”，或者“我感觉……”，这更像是一种持续的感觉，“我是一个嫉妒的人。”这就是我想说的，这通常是一个危险信号。

And you’re right.

你是对的。

It’s a red flag partly because it means the person is probably bad at communicating, or you are as a couple.

这是一个危险信号，部分原因是这意味着这个人可能不善于沟通，或者你们是情侣。

Like, it’s not necessarily just the jealous…

就像，这不一定只是嫉妒……

Person’s fault.

人的错。

It’s just that there’s something happening in this dynamic that is bad psychologically, and that should be addressed, or maybe it’s not the right relationship.

只是在这种动态中发生了一些对心理不好的事情，应该解决这个问题，或者这可能不是正确的关系。

So, the fact that a lot of people cheat, does that mean every single person that cheated is probably not going to be good at monogamy?

那么，很多人出轨的事实是否意味着每个出轨的人都可能不擅长一夫一妻制？

53:30 I guess if you can just analyze all of human civilization as it stands and give advice, that’s definitively true for everyone.

我想如果你能分析整个人类文明的现状并给出建议，那对每个人来说绝对是正确的。

Not-

不-

That’s exactly what psychologists do all the time.

这正是心理学家一直在做的事情。

53:48 Yeah.

是的。

Okay.

好的。

53:50 Generalize.

概括。

We make sweeping statements.

我们发表笼统的声明。

This is great.

这太棒了。

53:52 No, I just…

不，我只是……

I think it’s really interesting because I see all those things as romantic: choosing not to cheat, choosing to dedicate yourself fully to another person.

我认为这真的很有趣，因为我认为所有这些事情都是浪漫的：选择不欺骗，选择将自己完全奉献给另一个人。

I mean, it’s all just romantic, and then some people do cheat, and your heart is broken.

我的意思是，这一切都很浪漫，然后有些人就出轨了，你的心就碎了。

You write a song about it, and then you move on.

你写一首关于它的歌，然后你继续前进。

You try to repair yourself and be vulnerable to another human being and all that.

你试图修复自己，并在另一个人面前变得脆弱等等。

But why deny yourself the beautiful spectrum of human experience?

但为什么要否认人类经历的美好范围呢？

54:13 I mean, it’s like eating one meal for the rest of your life.

我的意思是，这就像你的余生只吃一顿饭。

Like, why?

比如，为什么？

You don’t have to do that.

你不必这样做。

You can just…

你可以……

You can have lots of beautiful people around and…

你周围可以有很多漂亮的人，而且……

Well, so for me, actually focusing on a single thing, you get to explore.

嗯，所以对我来说，实际上专注于一件事，你就可以探索。

54:26 You mentioned a puzzle.

你提到了一个谜题。

Over time, you get to see the nuance, like the beauty of the puzzle.

随着时间的推移，你会看到其中的细微差别，就像拼图的美丽一样。

You realize it’s an infinitely long project to really understand another human being.

你意识到真正了解另一个人是一个无限漫长的项目。

And so, if you focus, you don’t get distracted.

因此，如果你集中注意力，你就不会分心。

So, that applies.

所以，这适用。

I’m a person, when I find a meal I really like, I’ll stick to it for a long time.

我这个人，当我找到一顿自己真正喜欢的饭菜时，我就会长期坚持下去。

I’m definitely a monogamy person, I think.

我想我绝对是一个一夫一妻制的人。

But that also could be a component of where I grew up.

但这也可能是我成长的一个组成部分。

You know, there’s a certain cultural upbringing, and maybe my brain is not allowing…

你知道，有一定的文化教养，也许我的大脑不允许……

…myself certain possibilities, you know?

……我自己有某些可能性，你知道吗？

55:01 I think it’s more that I want people to feel like they have a choice, and that’s the important thing.

我认为我更希望人们觉得他们有选择，这才是重要的。

And I think all we see is monogamy everywhere, all the time, and it’s just one version of how we can live our lives, and I think it’s not the only.

我认为我们所看到的只是随处可见的一夫一妻制，这只是我们生活方式的一个版本，而且我认为这不是唯一的。

And I think that having conversations with your partner as well, especially early—it’s harder to bring this up later on—but to have it early and say, you know, “How do you actually want to structure your life?” And I think, how do you want to structure your relationship is part of that.

我认为也可以与你的伴侣进行对话，尤其是在早期——以后再提出这个问题会比较困难——但要尽早进行对话，并说，你知道，“你实际上想如何构建你的生活？”我认为，你想如何构建你们的关系是其中的一部分。

And especially if you’re going to commit yourself to one person, one primary person, or one exclusive person, that’s part of it.

尤其是如果你要把自己委身于一个人、一个主要的人或一个排他的人，那就是其中的一部分。

55:37 And I think then you also, you know, don’t have to lie to each other if you do cheat, or you can talk about it in a different way if you feel like there’s a certain capacity to be honest about whom you’re attracted to and how that might impact your life more generally.

我想，如果你们确实出轨了，也不必互相撒谎，或者如果您觉得有一定的能力诚实地了解您被谁吸引以及这可能如何影响您的生活，那么您可以以不同的方式谈论这件事。

So, how difficult is polyamory?

那么，多角恋到底有多难呢？

55:52 I think a lot of people would be curious about that kind of stuff.

我想很多人都会对这类东西感到好奇。

Does jealousy come up?

嫉妒会出现吗？

Is it difficult to navigate?

导航困难吗？

It can be.

可以的。

56:00 I mean, all relationships can be difficult to navigate.

我的意思是，所有关系都可能很难驾驭。

Sure.

当然。

I think it’s the same.

我认为是一样的。

56:03 It’s…

这是……

and the same respect.

和同样的尊重。

So if you’re going in because you’re trying to fix something about yourself, you’re going to have a hard time.

因此，如果你因为想要修复自己的某些问题而进入，那么你将会遇到困难。

Much like if you’re dating a single person, if you’re trying to fix something, and this is going to be the solution to the thing that you feel is broken about yourself, it’s going to be hard.

就像你和一个单身人士约会一样，如果你想修复某些事情，而这将是你觉得自己破碎的事情的解决方案，那么这会很困难。

But if you’re going in coming from a good place, and you’re going, you know, “I want to be open, and I want to connect with people, and I want to love people or a person,” then you’re going to have a better time.

但如果你来自一个好地方，你知道，“我想要开放，我想要与人联系，我想要爱别人或一个人”，那么你会度过更好的时光。

What does the perfect polyamorous relationship look like?

完美的多角恋关系是什么样的？

56:28 Can you really love multiple people deeply?

你真的可以深爱多个人吗？

I think so.

我想是的。

56:34 You can love people in different ways, and also, you can love lots of people deeply, I think.

我认为，你可以用不同的方式爱人，而且，你可以深深地爱很多人。

And I think, again, research on bisexuality — I’m bi — has also found that people who are bi are more likely to be in non-traditional relationships.

我再次认为，对双性恋（我是双性恋）的研究也发现双性恋者更有可能处于非传统关系中。

And one of the reasons for that is probably also because we constantly get asked to justify our sexuality as well.

原因之一可能也是因为我们也经常被要求为我们的性行为辩护。

And so if constantly you’re being asked if one person’s enough for you, if one gender’s enough for you if you’re in a relationship with one person, for example, you know, if I’m in a relationship with a man, do you miss women?

因此，如果不断有人问你，一个人对你来说是否足够，如果你和一个人有关系，一种性别对你来说是否足够，例如，你知道，如果我和一个男人有关系，你会想念女人吗？

And it’s like, I don’t ask you that if you’re in a relationship with a woman.

就像，如果你和女人有恋爱关系，我不会问你这个问题。

Do you miss women?

你想念女人吗？

Like, you probably do, but that’s just other women than your partner.

就像，你可能会这样做，但这只是你伴侣之外的其他女性。

57:14 It has nothing to do with being bi.

这和bi无关。

And so I think there’s this constant barrage of questions of what does it mean?

所以我认为人们不断提出这样的问题：这意味着什么？

Is it real?

这是真的吗？

How do you choose?

你如何选择？

What does a relationship look like?

一段关系是什么样的？

Do you constantly want threesomes?

你总是想要三人行吗？

Like, there’s this constant hyper-sexualization also, especially of women that we find in the research that can also lead to really negative outcomes for mental health and for things like risk of sexual violence.

就像，还有这种持续的过度性化，特别是我们在研究中发现的女性，这也会给心理健康和性暴力风险等带来真正的负面结果。

But on the other hand, you’ve got bisexual people themselves saying, “Yeah, but I feel like I also have this superpower that I can love more widely, and gender doesn’t really matter in terms of whom I’m capable of loving.” And so relationship structures almost come with that conversation.

但另一方面，双性恋者自己也会说，“是的，但我觉得我也有这种超能力，我可以更广泛地爱，而性别对于我有能力爱谁来说并不重要。”因此关系结构几乎伴随着谈话而来。

57:52 It’s not that we need to be non-monogamous or that we need to be in these kinds of relationships.

这并不是说我们需要非一夫一妻制，或者我们需要处于这种关系中。

It’s more that I think if you’ve engaged so deeply with your sexuality, partly because society’s forced you to, then you’re also going to be thinking about relationship structures more generally and going, “Actually, I’m going to choose this one.”

我更重要的是认为，如果你如此深入地关注自己的性取向，部分原因是社会强迫你这样做，那么你也会更广泛地思考关系结构，并说：“实际上，我会选择这个。”

Yeah, that’s interesting.

是的，这很有趣。

58:06 I mean, your sexual preferences and relationship structure preferences, some of the choice has to do with how society’s going to respond to it.

我的意思是，你的性偏好和关系结构偏好，其中一些选择与社会将如何应对它有关。

So if you have to explain it every time you go to a party, you might maybe not want to do that or talk about it or at least be open about it.

因此，如果您每次去参加聚会时都必须解释它，您可能不想这样做或谈论它，或者至少对此持开放态度。

Yeah, I’m sure there’s a lot of annoying conversations you have to do if you’re polyamorous, some of which you’ve mentioned.

是的，我确信如果你是多角恋，你必须进行很多烦人的对话，其中一些你已经提到过。

And yes, there are effects of like over-sexualizing the people involved.

是的，过度性化所涉及的人会产生影响。

Yeah.

是的。

Or thinking they’re lying.

或者认为他们在撒谎。

58:42 So with men…

那么对于男人...

So, I wrote a book called Bi: The Hidden Culture, History, and Science of Bisexuality, and I did that after I created a bisexual research group.

所以，我写了一本名为《双：双性恋隐藏的文化、历史和科学》的书，我是在创建了一个双性恋研究小组之后写的。

So, I wasn’t a sexuality researcher, but as a bi person and a scientist, I was interested in the science of bisexuality, and I couldn’t really find it.

所以，我不是一个性研究者，但作为一个双性恋者和科学家，我对双性恋的科学感兴趣，但我无法真正找到它。

It was really hard to figure out what people were actually learning about bisexual people in comparison to other kinds of queer people.

与其他类型的酷儿相比，很难弄清楚人们对双性恋者的真正了解。

And one of the things I found is that the terms that are used are not necessarily bi.

我发现的一件事是使用的术语不一定是bi。

And so it could be things like plurisexual.

所以可能是多性恋之类的事情。

59:16 So, if you type into Google Scholar the word bisexual, you’re going to get a lot of confusing things also because bisexual is used for, like, two sexes where you have multiple sexes or you can change, and so they’re bisexual.

所以，如果你在谷歌学术搜索中输入“双性恋”这个词，你会得到很多令人困惑的东西，因为“双性恋”被用来指两种性别，你有多种性别，或者你可以改变性别，所以他们是双性恋。

Right.

正确的。

Yeah, which is entirely different.

是的，这完全不同。

59:28 And so I think partly out of that, researchers started using words like plurisexual, and omnisexual is another one.

所以我认为部分出于这个原因，研究人员开始使用“多性恋”等词，而“全性恋”是另一个词。

And so if you’re looking for research on this, plurisexual is probably the word.

因此，如果你正在寻找这方面的研究，“多性恋”可能就是这个词。

But…

但是……

What does omnisexual mean?

全性恋是什么意思？

It’s just the same.

都是一样的。

59:42 It’s just another-

这只是另一个——

Okay.

好的。

59:44 Got it.

知道了。

Another word where it’s all.

另一个词就是一切。

Sometimes pansexual is also used.

有时也使用泛性恋。

And again, the idea being that it’s all genders.

再说一次，这个想法是所有性别都是如此。

So, how should we think about bisexuality?

那么，我们应该如何看待双性恋呢？

59:52 Is it fluid, like day to day, month to month, year to year, fluid who you’re attracted to?

它是流动的吗，就像日复一日、月复一月、年复一年，你所吸引的人是流动的吗？

Or is it at the same time, have the capacity to be attracted to anyone or attracted to everyone?

或者它同时具有被任何人吸引或被所有人吸引的能力？

What’s the right way to think about it?

正确的思考方式是什么？

I think the right way to think about it is that I’m not attracted to most people, but I can be attracted to people regardless of gender.

我认为正确的思考方式是，我不会被大多数人所吸引，但我可以被不同性别的人所吸引。

1:00:12 Much like you’re probably not attracted to most people, but you are attracted to people of a certain gender, maybe.

就像您可能不会被大多数人所吸引，但您可能会被某种性别的人所吸引。

And so that’s…

所以那就是……

It’s the same as being heterosexual in terms of potentially my pool of people whom I might be interested in.

就我可能感兴趣的潜在人群而言，这与异性恋是一样的。

It’s just that the gender is irrelevant.

只是性别无关紧要。

What’s the biggest thing that people misunderstand about bisexuality?

人们对双性恋最大的误解是什么？

The biggest thing that researchers find people misunderstand about bisexuality is that it’s a phase and that it’s this idea that it’s transient, that it’s always changing, and that it’s a stepping stone.

研究人员发现，人们对双性恋最大的误解是，它是一个阶段，而且这种观念认为它是短暂的，它总是在变化，它是一个垫脚石。

1:00:37 So, I think a lot of people still see bisexuality as on the way to gay town.

所以，我认为很多人仍然认为双性恋正在走向同性恋小镇。

Sort of like you’re on your way, but you haven’t quite committed and you’re still stuck in expectations of society.

有点像你已经在路上了，但你还没有完全投入，你仍然停留在社会的期望中。

You haven’t quite let go yet, but really you’re gay.

你还没有完全放手，但你确实是同性恋。

And that’s especially true for men.

对于男性来说尤其如此。

And so when you look at research on bisexual men, which is actually how the research started.

所以当你看一下对双性恋男性的研究时，这实际上就是研究的开始方式。

So, I think now when we think of bisexuality, we think of women.

所以，我认为现在当我们想到双性恋时，我们会想到女性。

And it’s true that today, twice as many women identify as bisexual as men.

确实，如今，认定自己是双性恋的女性人数是男性的两倍。

1:01:18 But if you look at the history of this and the research on bisexuality over time, it was the other way around.

但如果你回顾一下这方面的历史以及长期以来对双性恋的研究，就会发现事实恰恰相反。

Someone called Alfred Kinsey was one of the first sexuality researchers in recent history, certainly, and he, after World War II, did this really big study of Sexual Behavior in the Human Male, it was called.

阿尔弗雷德·金赛（Alfred Kinsey）无疑是近代历史上最早的性行为研究者之一，他在二战后对人类男性的性行为进行了一项非常大规模的研究，它被称为“性行为研究”。

He was a biologist himself, and so he thought of taxonomies, and he was doing research on gall wasps, so insects.

他本身就是一名生物学家，所以他想到了分类学，他正在研究瘿蜂，也就是昆虫。

And this idea of human sexuality was sort of thrown at him after the war because there’s also this whole move to get people to, well, reproduce and to rebuild America.

这种关于人类性行为的想法是在战后向他抛出的，因为这整个行动也是为了让人们繁衍和重建美国。

And so sexuality was partly, and sex, specifically, was becoming more of an area of interest, both in terms of research and in terms of policy and funding.

因此，性是其中的一部分，尤其是性，无论是在研究方面，还是在政策和资金方面，都越来越成为人们感兴趣的领域。

1:02:05 And so Alfred Kinsey was asked, “Do you want to do a class on human sexual behavior?” And he was like, “I know nothing about this.” And so he spent about a year just listening to students’ questions about what they wanted to know about sex, and he realized that he was looking for research to try and build up this course that he was probably going to teach, and he realized that he couldn’t answer most of their questions because the research hadn’t been done.

于是有人问阿尔弗雷德·金赛：“你想上一门关于人类性行为的课程吗？”他说：“我对此一无所知。”因此，他花了大约一年的时间来倾听学生关于他们想了解性的问题，他意识到他正在寻找研究来尝试建立他可能要教授的这门课程，他意识到他无法回答他们的大部分问题，因为研究尚未完成。

And so a lot of the questions were around, “What is normal?”

所以很多问题都围绕着“什么是正常的？”

1:02:36 You know, “If I feel this during sex, is that normal?

你知道，“如果我在做爱时有这种感觉，这正常吗？

How often do people have sex?

人们多久发生一次性行为？

Should I want these?

我应该想要这些吗？

What about these fantasies?

这些幻想又如何呢？

What does it mean?

这意味着什么？

What if I have homosexual fantasies?

如果我有同性恋幻想怎么办？

What if I engage in this kind of…” And so he was looking at all of these questions and collating them, and then he went out and did these huge studies, and he interviewed thousands of people himself, but also had all these research assistants who were out there interviewing people in America about their sexual behavior, which, I mean, just picture the time.

如果我从事这种……”所以他正在研究所有这些问题并整理它们，然后他出去做了这些大规模的研究，他自己采访了数千人，但也让所有这些研究助理采访了美国人们的性行为，我的意思是，这只是想象一下当时的情况。

This is the 1940s.

这是 20 世纪 40 年代。

This is quite a conservative time.

这是一个相当保守的时期。

I mean, certainly more than we might expect now.

我的意思是，肯定比我们现在预期的要多。

1:03:12 And here’s this researcher asking incredibly personal questions about thousands and thousands and thousands of people, and he ended up finding, and this is one of the big findings in this book that he published called Sexual Behavior in The Human Male, which was a bestseller for an entire year.

这位研究人员向成千上万的人提出了令人难以置信的个人问题，他最终发现，这是他出版的《人类男性的性行为》一书中的重大发现之一，该书是一整年的畅销书。

He sold out auditoriums.

他把礼堂卖光了。

They had to sometimes add the room next to the room he was in because there was so much desire to go to his lectures about sex that they had to connect radios to other halls to give people enough space to sit down.

有时他们不得不在他所在的房间旁边添加一个房间，因为人们非常想去听他关于性的讲座，以至于他们不得不将收音机连接到其他大厅，以便为人们提供足够的空间坐下。

He was basically a rock star, and again, I think this challenges the misconception we have about sexuality, that we think of it as this sort of woke thing now…

他基本上是一位摇滚明星，我认为这再次挑战了我们对性的误解，我们现在认为它是一种觉醒的东西……

1:04:02 …that the rainbow flag and all this stuff is sort of this modern invention almost.

……彩虹旗和所有这些东西几乎都是现代发明。

But if you…

但如果你...

this is the ’40s.

这是四十年代。

This was happening.

这件事正在发生。

People were going to these talks.

人们要去参加这些会谈。

People were having these conversations, and he created something called the Kinsey Scale.

人们正在进行这些对话，他创造了一种叫做金赛量表的东西。

And so the Kinsey Scale is from zero to six, and he found that it was not useful to apply a binary to people’s sexual desires and sexual orientation.

所以金赛量表是从零到六，他发现用二元来衡量人们的性欲和性取向是没有用的。

It was more useful to put them on a continuum because most people were not exclusively homosexual or exclusively heterosexual.

将他们放在一个连续体中更有用，因为大多数人并不完全是同性恋或完全是异性恋。

Most people were somewhere in between.

大多数人都介于两者之间。

1:04:34 And so zero was exclusively heterosexual tendencies, and six was exclusively homosexual, and he would place people based on all of the things they told him somewhere on the scale, and about half of men were somewhere in the middle, not exclusively either, and about a quarter of women.

因此，零是完全异性恋倾向，六是完全同性恋倾向，他会根据人们告诉他的所有事情对人们进行排名，大约一半的男性处于中间位置，但不完全是，大约四分之一的女性处于中间。

Now think about the time.

现在想想时间。

It was a very conservative time.

那是一个非常保守的时期。

Well, and it’s post-war though, so I think that mattered as well.

嗯，虽然现在是战后，所以我认为这也很重要。

1:04:56 So there’s something called a homosocial environment, which has nothing to do with being gay.

所以有一种叫做同性社会环境的东西，它与同性恋无关。

That has to do with being in a situation where you are with people of the same gender as you.

这与你与同性别的人在一起的情况有关。

So a homosocial environment are things like prisons, where you only have men or only have women, war, which, at that point, they just had, and so you have a lot of men who are exclusively in the company of men, and maybe looking around going, “Well, now that my options are different, maybe I’m going to choose from this pool.” Anyway, so he found that it was that way around, that a lot of people have these fantasies or actions that they’ve engaged in.

因此，同性社会环境就像监狱一样，那里只有男人或只有女人，战争，在那时，他们刚刚经历过，所以你有很多男人，他们完全与男人在一起，也许环顾四周，“好吧，既然我的选择不同了，也许我会从这个池中选择。”无论如何，他发现事情就是这样，很多人都有这些幻想或他们所从事的行为。

1:05:36 And then there are other researchers, other male researchers, who found similar things, and then at some point in the ’70s, it swapped, and it felt like maybe more people, more men, were identifying as gay, and there were maybe fewer people who would have called themselves bi, and suddenly this became a thing more for women.

然后还有其他研究人员，其他男性研究人员也发现了类似的事情，然后在 70 年代的某个时候，情况发生了变化，感觉可能有更多的人，更多的男性，被认定为同性恋，而自称双性恋的人可能会更少，突然间，这变得更适合女性。

So I think that there are some social things going on.

所以我认为正在发生一些社会事情。

There are some research things going on that actually bi men have been studied for a long time as well.

有一些研究正在进行，实际上双性恋也已经被研究了很长时间。

Okay, so you said a lot of interesting things.

好吧，你说了很多有趣的话。

1:05:59 So there is a difference between the truth and the socially acknowledged thing, so there are social elements.

所以真相和社会公认的事情是有区别的，所以有社会因素。

I don’t know.

我不知道。

This might be anecdotal, but I know a few women friends of mine who identify as bisexual.

这可能是轶事，但我认识一些自认为是双性恋的女性朋友。

I don’t know a single guy friend who identifies as bisexual.

我认识的单身男性朋友中没有一个是双性恋的。

They’re either gay or straight.

他们要么是同性恋，要么是异性恋。

So there’s still a social thing going on.

所以仍然有一些社交活动正在发生。

Definitely.

确实。

Right?

正确的？

Definitely, and I think that research consistently shows that bisexual men are more likely to identify as gay or straight.

当然，我认为研究一致表明双性恋男性更有可能认为自己是同性恋或异性恋。

As gay.

作为同性恋。

And gay, well, it depends.

同性恋，嗯，这要看情况。

1:06:39 If they have what we might refer to as a homosexual lifestyle, so they engage in going to queer parties, maybe go on Grindr or other gay apps, that would be much more a lifestyle thing where you’ve embraced it and you see this as part of your identity, that you are part of this queer community.

如果他们有我们所说的同性恋生活方式，那么他们会参加酷儿派对，也许会使用 Grindr 或其他同性恋应用程序，这将更像是一种生活方式，你会接受它，并且将其视为你身份的一部分，你是这个酷儿社区的一部分。

It’s much easier to say you’re gay than you are bi, most often, also because there’s queerphobia within the queer community.

大多数情况下，说自己是同性恋比说自己是双性恋要容易得多，这也是因为酷儿社区内存在酷儿恐惧症。

So you might get gay men saying to a bi man, “Ah, come on.

所以你可能会让男同性恋者对双性恋者说：“啊，来吧。

You’re actually gay.

你其实是同性恋。

I was bi once.” That’s a classic.

我曾经是双性恋。”那是经典。

“I was bi once,” or “Come on.”

“我曾经是双性恋，”或者“来吧。”

1:07:14 You’re actually gay.” It’s the same that you get the other way around with bi women, that because it’s seen as performative, the idea being that bisexual women are doing it for attention, but the attention of men specifically.

你其实是同性恋。”这与双性恋女性的情况相反，因为它被视为表演性的，这个想法是双性恋女性这样做是为了引起注意，但特别是男性的注意。

That, “Well, they’re all going to go back to men anyway and they’re just doing it.

那就是，“好吧，无论如何，他们都会回到男人身边，而且他们只是这样做。

It’s a phase.

这是一个阶段。

It’s this thing that they’re doing actually to be sexy to men, not because they’re actually interested in women.” And so there’s this lesbian-bi thing going on, which is often quite hostile.

他们这样做实际上是为了让男人性感，而不是因为他们实际上对女人感兴趣。”因此，女同性恋双性恋的事情正在发生，而且通常是相当敌对的。

Not always, but often.

不总是，但经常。

And there’s this gay male-bi thing going on, which is different in nature but is also potentially hostile.

还有一种同性恋男双性恋现象正在发生，其本质不同，但也可能具有敌意。

So in both, saying you’re bi can be problematic, but for men, more so.

因此，在这两种情况下，说自己是双性恋可能会有问题，但对于男性来说，更是如此。

Do you like the Kinsey Scale as a very simple reduction, that there’s a spectrum?

您是否喜欢金赛量表，因为它是一个非常简单的简化，有一个频谱？

1:07:53 I also saw the Klein Sexual Orientation Grid that adds a few parameters like who you’re attracted to, how you’re actually behaving, the fantasies you have, social preference, lifestyle preferences, all that kind of stuff.

我还看到了克莱因性取向网格，它添加了一些参数，例如你被谁吸引，你的实际行为方式，你的幻想，社会偏好，生活方式偏好，所有这些东西。

Self-identification, what you actually say publicly.

自我认同，即你在公开场合实际所说的话。

All those different dimensions.

所有这些不同的维度。

Or is the Kinsey Scale a pretty damn good approximation?

或者金赛量表是一个非常好的近似值吗？

The Kinsey Scale is a good start, and the Klein Grid, I think, is much more fun in some ways.

金赛量表是一个好的开始，我认为克莱因网格在某些方面更有趣。

1:08:21 So the Klein Grid came out of research by Alfred Kinsey and others like Havelock Ellis, but we won’t get into him.

因此，克莱因网格是阿尔弗雷德·金赛 (Alfred Kinsey) 和哈夫洛克·埃利斯 (Havelock Ellis) 等人的研究成果，但我们不会深入讨论他。

Fritz Klein was a male researcher doing research also on sexuality.

弗里茨·克莱因（Fritz Klein）是一位男性研究员，也从事性研究。

He was specifically a therapist, and he was looking at people who were struggling with their sexuality.

他特别是一名治疗师，他正在研究那些因性取向而苦苦挣扎的人。

So people would show up in the 70s and 80s in his practice, and they would say, “I’m struggling with my sexuality.” And he would say, “How can I help you?” And they would say things like, “I wish I wasn’t interested in men, and I’m a man.” And he would then work through what that means.

因此，70 年代和 80 年代的人们会出现在他的实践中，他们会说，“我正在为自己的性取向而挣扎。”他会说：“我能帮你什么忙？”他们会说，“我希望我对男人不感兴趣，但我是个男人。”然后他会研究这意味着什么。

Does that mean you don’t want to have these feelings?

这是否意味着你不想有这些感觉？

Does that mean that you don’t want to have these attractions?

这是否意味着您不想拥有这些景点？

1:09:07 Does that mean that it’s the implications of how your friends and family will see you that’s the problem?

这是否意味着问题在于你的朋友和家人如何看待你？

So he created this much more complex scale, which I think is really interesting for everybody to do, no matter what their sexuality is.

所以他创造了这个更加复杂的量表，我认为这对每个人来说都很有趣，无论他们的性取向是什么。

Because what it is, is it gets you to think about things like, yeah, your sexual identity, easy.

因为它是什么，它让你思考一些事情，是的，你的性别认同，很简单。

Not just that, but in past, present, and ideal.

不仅如此，还有过去、现在和理想。

So if you say, “Well, I used to identify as straight.

所以如果你说：“嗯，我曾经认为自己是异性恋。

Now I identify as bisexual.” And then I have in my head…

现在我认定自己是双性恋。”然后我脑子里就有了……

This doesn’t mean that other people think this.

这并不意味着其他人也这么认为。

In my head, I have an ideal, which could be straight, because that’s what maybe society’s told us we should be.

在我的脑海里，我有一个理想，它可以是直截了当的，因为这也许是社会告诉我们应该成为的。

But it could also be something else.

但也可能是别的东西。

1:09:47 And so I’ve also had friends who’ve gone, you know, past, present, straight, straight, but ideal bi.

所以我也有一些朋友，你知道，过去的、现在的、异性恋、异性恋，但都是理想的双性恋。

So you get into these interesting dynamics where sometimes people just wish they were a different sexuality than they were for other reasons.

所以你会陷入这些有趣的动态中，有时人们只是希望自己的性取向与其他原因不同。

And then there are other things in the scale that ask about your lifestyle.

量表中还有其他一些内容会询问您的生活方式。

So, for example, if you are going to queer parties, if you have queer friends, then you might have a homosexual lifestyle, even if you’re straight.

所以，举例来说，如果你要去参加酷儿派对，如果你有酷儿朋友，那么即使你是异性恋，你也可能有同性恋的生活方式。

But then again, it’s how much lifestyle would you like?

但话又说回来，你想要什么样的生活方式？

1:10:17 And so for me, that was a real moment where I was looking at that going, “Wow, my lifestyle’s really straight.” Um, “And maybe I need to change this.” And so he was using these attractions and fantasies and identities and the past, present, ideal to help people to think through all these complicated feelings we have around our sexuality, and to identify sticking points.

所以对我来说，那是一个真实的时刻，我正在看着这样的事情：“哇，我的生活方式真的很直接。”嗯，“也许我需要改变这一点。”因此，他利用这些吸引力、幻想、身份以及过去、现在、理想来帮助人们思考我们对性的所有这些复杂的感受，并找出症结所在。

Yeah, that’s fascinating.

是的，这很有趣。

1:10:37 So maybe the presumption there is if everything’s aligned, the fantasies, the ideal partner, all those things, that’s probably the healthiest place to be?

所以也许假设如果一切都一致，幻想，理想的伴侣，所有这些东西，那可能是最健康的地方？

Right.

对。

1:10:49 And so he would look at especially the ideal and the present.

所以他会特别关注理想和现在。

And if those were different, so if you said, “I wish I was bi but I’m straight,” or “I’m bi but I wish I was straight,” or “I’m homosexual and I wish I was straight,” he would say, “Let’s talk about that,” and he’d try to work through it.

如果这些不同，那么如果你说，“我希望我是双性恋，但我是异性恋”，或者“我是双性恋，但我希望我是异性恋”，或者“我是同性恋，我希望我是异性恋，”他会说，“让我们谈谈这个，”他会尝试解决这个问题。

And the term he used for bisexual people who were uncomfortable in their own sexuality was “being a troubled bisexual.” And so I think…

他用“成为一个有问题的双性恋者”来形容那些对自己的性取向感到不舒服的双性恋者。所以我认为……

You can…

你可以……

I think any sexuality can be troubled.

我认为任何性行为都会受到困扰。

I think you could be a troubled straight person, a troubled homosexual person, a troubled asexual person.

我认为你可能是一个有问题的异性恋者、一个有问题的同性恋者、一个有问题的无性恋者。

And just thinking about why and which aspects are maybe missing, I think, is really healthy for people to do.

我认为，仅仅思考为什么以及哪些方面可能缺失，对人们来说确实是健康的做法。

Meaning there are some puzzles that you haven’t quite figured out, maybe you haven’t been honest with yourself about your preferences, all that kind of stuff.

这意味着有些谜题你还没有完全弄清楚，也许你对自己的喜好不诚实，诸如此类。

I don’t really like talking about honesty with yourself.

我真的不喜欢与自己谈论诚实。

1:11:33 I think that’s a high bar, and I think it’s also often weaponized against people, especially by men, where it’s this idea of “you’re not really being honest, you’re actually gay.” And so I think this idea of “we’re not being honest with our own sexuality,” that’s a big word.

我认为这是一个很高的标准，而且我认为它也经常被用来对付人们，尤其是男性，其中的想法是“你不是真的诚实，你实际上是同性恋”。所以我认为“我们对自己的性取向不诚实”这个想法是一个很大的词。

I think it’s more that maybe you haven’t had the right framework or the right words to think about aspects of your sexuality that are troubling to you.

我认为更多的是，也许你没有正确的框架或正确的词语来思考你的性行为中令你困扰的方面。

How obvious…

多么明显……

1:11:55 When a person is bisexual, how obvious is it to identify like the sexual orientation grid?

当一个人是双性恋时，像性取向网格一样的识别有多明显？

Like how big is the sign, whatever you are?

就像标志有多大，无论你是什么？

I think the sign is smaller than we think it is.

我认为这个标志比我们想象的要小。

1:12:06 I think that there’s this tendency to assume that sexuality is something that we find and keep, and consolidate from our teenage years, maybe early 20s.

我认为，人们倾向于认为性是我们从青少年时期（也许是 20 岁出头）发现并保留并巩固的东西。

You maybe get university thrown in, sort of if you get your experimental year as an undergrad.

如果你是本科生，你可能会进入大学。

1:12:28 But then, you kind of have to choose.

但接下来，你就必须做出选择。

And that is a difficult requirement, I think, for a lot of people, because you can’t possibly know all of the things and all the people you might be interested in at that point.

我认为，对于很多人来说，这是一个困难的要求，因为你不可能知道当时你可能感兴趣的所有事情和所有人。

And we change in every other way.

我们在其他方面都做出了改变。

Why wouldn’t we change in this way?

我们为什么不这样改变呢？

So I think giving ourselves also the ability to reappraise where we’re at with our own sexuality, our own desires, our own relationship status, all these things, is important to keep us happy and healthy, and to not run into issues that we know are faced by a lot of homosexual but also bisexual people.

所以我认为，让我们自己有能力重新评估我们自己的性取向、我们自己的欲望、我们自己的关系状态，所有这些事情，对于让我们保持快乐和健康很重要，并且不会遇到我们知道很多同性恋者和双性恋者面临的问题。

Research has found that bisexual people are more likely to self-harm.

研究发现，双性恋者更容易自残。

They’re more likely to be the victims of sexual violence, more likely to be isolated, more likely to be stalked.

他们更有可能成为性暴力的受害者，更有可能被孤立，更有可能被跟踪。

1:13:16 There are lots of different aspects of being bi that are negative, and the reason for that is mostly because bi people are least likely to be plugged into the community.

双性恋有很多不同的方面是负面的，其原因主要是因为双性恋者最不可能融入社区。

So when you’re going through stuff like this, and you feel different, and you’re constantly being asked about your sexuality, if you’re open about it, or you’re hiding it, that’s also troubling.

因此，当你经历这样的事情时，你会感觉不同，并且不断被问及你的性取向，如果你公开或隐藏它，这也是令人不安的。

You’re going to have these negative consequences, especially if you don’t feel like the queer community is really a place for you.

你将会产生这些负面后果，特别是如果你觉得酷儿社区不适合你的话。

So that’s where also finding your people really matters.

因此，这就是找到你的员工真正重要的地方。

Since we’re on the topic of sexuality, one of the things you touched on in your book on evil was kinks, sexual fantasies.

既然我们讨论的是性的话题，你在关于邪恶的书中提到的事情之一就是性癖好、性幻想。

1:13:44 I think the point of describing that was that we often label that as evil or bad.

我认为描述这一点的要点是我们经常将其标记为邪恶或坏的。

What can you say about what you’ve learned from kinks and sexual fantasies from writing that book?

对于写这本书时你从怪癖和性幻想中学到的东西，你有什么想说的吗？

The reason I included kinks and evil and sexual conversations in general is because it is so often thrown into the same conversation.

我之所以将怪癖、邪恶和性对话纳入其中，是因为它们经常被放入同一个对话中。

1:14:06 So if someone comes to me and says, “Julia, I want you to help me explain why this person killed this other person.” And they’ll often say, “Did you know that he or she was also into,” insert kink here, or insert nontraditional relationship structure here, or insert whatever.

因此，如果有人来找我说：“朱莉娅，我希望你帮我解释一下为什么这个人杀了另一个人。”他们经常会说，“你知道他或她也喜欢吗？”在这里插入扭结，或者在这里插入非传统的关系结构，或者插入任何东西。

And I respond to that by going, “Okay, so?” And I think people use these words like, “Oh, he was really into BDSM,” and think that that’s going to have this really important impact on me.

我对此的回应是：“好吧，那么呢？”我认为人们会用这样的话，“哦，他真的很喜欢 BDSM”，并认为这会对我产生非常重要的影响。

Or, “Ooh, they were swingers.” And so…

或者，“哦，他们是浪荡公子。”所以……

And again, I go, “Yeah?” That’s, you know, almost like, “And in other news, they were swingers.”

我再次问道：“是吗？”你知道，这几乎就像“在其他新闻中，他们是浪荡公子。”

1:15:00 It’s like that is not related to this crime at all, unless, you know, one of the partners was killed.

好像这与这起犯罪根本无关，除非，你知道，其中一名合伙人被杀了。

But people see this as a defect of character, and kink is very much seen as a defect of character in many circles, especially in broader society.

但人们认为这是一种性格缺陷，而怪癖在许多圈子里，尤其是在更广泛的社会中，很大程度上被视为一种性格缺陷。

And that is wild to me because if you look at research on sexual fantasies and kinks, a lot of people have at least one.

这对我来说很疯狂，因为如果你看一下有关性幻想和性怪癖的研究，就会发现很多人至少有一种。

So a lot of people, BDSM being the most common, are engaging in or interested in BDSM.

所以很多人（BDSM 是最常见的）正在从事 BDSM 或对 BDSM 感兴趣。

So things like choking or things like restraints or being degraded or doing the degrading of other people in bed, consensually of course, that is something that a lot of people fantasize about and a lot of people engage in.

因此，诸如窒息或束缚之类的事情或被侮辱或在床上侮辱他人，当然，这是很多人幻想的事情，也是很多人参与的事情。

1:15:45 And so these kinks and these fetishes, they are much more commonplace than we sometimes think about them as.

因此，这些怪癖和恋物癖比我们有时想象的要普遍得多。

Now, on the other hand, we obviously need to be careful not to assume that because in pornography BDSM is almost ubiquitous, it feels, that that means everybody wants this.

现在，另一方面，我们显然需要小心，不要假设因为 BDSM 在色情作品中几乎无处不在，所以感觉这意味着每个人都想要这个。

That is absolutely not the case, but we also don’t want to marginalize it and say it’s almost nobody.

事实并非如此，但我们也不想边缘化它并说它几乎没有人。

It’s somewhere in between, and the main thing is always just to ask and to have open conversations about what it is that people actually want in bed and to make sure you have things like safe words.

它介于两者之间，最重要的是询问并公开讨论人们在床上真正想要什么，并确保你有安全词之类的东西。

So, you know, putting in the restraints to make sure that these interactions are safe and consensual and then being able to explore.

所以，你知道，施加限制以确保这些互动是安全且双方同意的，然后才能进行探索。

1:16:22 And, I mean, there’s everything from, you know, pup play where you dress up as a puppy and you engage in either just general frolicking or sexual behavior to other things like blood play, which is when you pierce the skin to release some sort of blood.

而且，我的意思是，从你知道的小狗游戏，你打扮成小狗，进行一般的嬉戏或性行为，到其他事情，比如血液游戏，即刺穿皮肤释放某种血液。

That can be scratching.

这可能会被抓伤。

That can be cutting.

那可以切割。

That can be of yourself or your partner.

这可以是你自己的，也可以是你伴侣的。

That can be this idea of, you know, I don’t know, it’s this taboo thing you’re doing together, and it’s sexy in its own way.

这可能是这样的想法，你知道，我不知道，这是你们一起做的禁忌事情，但它以自己的方式很性感。

And so everybody has their own versions of what they find attractive.

所以每个人都有自己认为有吸引力的东西。

And rubbing up against people, you know, sort of unsuspecting, pretending that someone’s sleeping.

你知道，在别人身上蹭来蹭去，有点毫无戒心，假装有人在睡觉。

There’s this wide range of things, and I think people also feel often deeply ashamed about the things that they are interested in.

事情的范围很广，我认为人们也经常对他们感兴趣的事情感到深深的羞愧。

1:17:07 And I think that is also really sad because it makes it more likely that people are going to not be able to live that part of themselves and also that they think there’s something wrong with them.

我认为这也非常令人悲伤，因为这使得人们更有可能无法活出自己的那一部分，并且他们认为自己有问题。

And that can spiral into things like, “Am I evil?

这可能会演变成这样的事情：“我是邪恶的吗？

Am I bad?

我很坏吗？

Am I a bad person because I have these fantasies?” And that ties in, unfortunately, with homosexuality and bisexuality and the way that certainly historically and in most parts of the world still today, these queer lives and queer identities are still villainized.

因为我有这些幻想，我就是一个坏人吗？”不幸的是，这与同性恋和双性恋有关，而且在历史上和今天仍然在世界大部分地区，这些酷儿生活和酷儿身份仍然被邪恶化。

They’re still seen as lesser, as bad, as a sign of a defect of character.

它们仍然被视为低劣、糟糕，是品格缺陷的标志。

And if people see that within themselves, they’re going to think differently about themselves, and society is going to treat them differently.

如果人们在自己内心看到这一点，他们就会对自己有不同的看法，社会也会以不同的方式对待他们。

So it’s all about destigmatizing.

所以这一切都是为了去污名化。

I really liked what you wrote about, I guess it was in the context of BDSM or maybe sadomasochism or maybe just the submissive-dominant dynamic, like why that might be appealing, the disinhibition hypothesis.

我真的很喜欢你写的内容，我想它是在 BDSM 或施虐受虐的背景下，或者只是顺从主导的动力，比如为什么这可能有吸引力，去抑制假设。

1:17:45 I guess this applies generally to sexual fantasies is if you live them out, that you could just let go of all the bullshit that we, that we put up in normal society.

我想这通常适用于性幻想，如果你实现了性幻想，你就可以放弃我们在正常社会中提出的所有废话。

That you could just be all in, fully present to the pleasure of it.

你可以全身心投入，充分享受其中的乐趣。

Right, and that’s what research has found on fetishes, especially on BDSM, is that the reason that people say they like it…

是的，这就是关于恋物癖的研究发现，尤其是 BDSM，这就是人们说他们喜欢它的原因......

1:18:13 I mean, it’s hard to explain why you have a fantasy.

我的意思是，很难解释为什么你有幻想。

But if you go into the finer questions and really dig deep, you can find that people will explain a version of, “Well, I can really let go, and I don’t have to…

但如果你深入研究更精细的问题，你会发现人们会解释一个版本，“好吧，我真的可以放手，而且我不必......

If someone is telling me what to do, then I don’t have to make any decisions, and I’ve spent all day making millions of decisions, and I don’t have to in this context.

如果有人告诉我要做什么，那么我不必做出任何决定，而且我一整天都在做出数百万个决定，在这种情况下我不需要这样做。

And I really like that because it’s freeing.” And so that’s that disinhibition hypothesis is that the reason that we often go to things in the bedroom that in other contexts we don’t like or even find repulsive, like I don’t in normal life potentially want to be told what to do.

我真的很喜欢这样，因为它很自由。”这就是去抑制假说，因为我们经常在卧室里做一些在其他情况下我们不喜欢甚至令人厌恶的事情，就像我在正常生活中可能不想被告知要做什么一样。

1:18:59 But maybe when you move into the bedroom, you go, “Yeah, but this is a different context, and I kind of want reverse of what I want in my day-to-day life.” And so I can also understand like furries and that sort of completely living as another species of it even is…

但也许当你搬进卧室时，你会说，“是的，但这是一个不同的环境，我有点想要与我在日常生活中想要的相反。”所以我也能理解像毛茸茸的动物一样，那种完全作为另一种物种生活的感觉甚至是……

It’s a really interesting psychological phenomenon of release and of letting go of social pressure.

这是一种非常有趣的释放社会压力的心理现象。

But I think that also applies to…

但我认为这也适用于……

1:19:20 because you mentioned submissive, that’s more straightforward to understand.

因为你提到了顺从，那就更容易理解了。

I think that also applies to dominant because you don’t have to walk on eggshells.

我认为这也适用于占主导地位的人，因为你不必如履薄冰。

It’s the clarity of it.

这就是它的清晰度。

That was really interesting.

这真的很有趣。

Having read that from you, that really made me think that there is a deep truth to that, to being true to whatever the sexual fantasy is.

读到你的这句话后，我真的觉得这里面有一个深刻的道理，那就是忠于任何性幻想。

It’s not just the fantasy itself that’s appealing, it’s the being free in some sense.

吸引人的不仅仅是幻想本身，还有某种意义上的自由。

It’s the being free and the juxtaposition there is that you are free because of the fiction.

这是自由和并置，你因为虚构而自由。

1:19:53 Like you’re play acting, but it’s touching at something deep inside you psychologically, and so it, that’s where it sort of feels weird, but it also makes sense.

就像你在演戏，但它在心理上触动了你内心深处的某些东西，所以，这就是感觉有点奇怪的地方，但它也是有道理的。

I mean, this is also why we like fiction because it allows you to maybe be somebody else, have someone else’s thoughts in your mind for a while and you really get to live it, as that for a bit.

我的意思是，这也是我们喜欢小说的原因，因为它可以让你成为另一个人，在你的脑海中暂时存有别人的想法，然后你就可以真正生活在其中，就这样一段时间。

So I think, yeah, the truth and fiction sort of circle is always an interesting one.

所以我认为，是的，真实与虚构的循环总是一个有趣的循环。

So, for researching the Bi book, the bisexuality book, what have you learned about sexuality in general?

那么，在研究 Bi 书（双性恋书）时，您对性行为有什么了解？

1:20:25 Human nature, kind of sexuality, and how it’s practiced in terms of different communities, and I’m sure there are subcultures and stuff.

人性、性行为以及不同社区的实践方式，我确信存在亚文化之类的东西。

Yeah.

是的。

What have you learned?

你学到了什么？

The research on human sexuality, I think, is interesting because we keep finding that people have these desires that they feel weird about, that…

我认为，对人类性行为的研究很有趣，因为我们不断发现人们有这些让他们感到奇怪的欲望，那就是……

1:20:40 Unless they have a community or an app that you can go to to live those fantasies, they can feel quite troubling to the individual and they can make you unwell.

除非他们有一个社区或一个应用程序可以让你实现这些幻想，否则他们会给个人带来很大的麻烦，并且会让你感到不舒服。

And that’s true whether it’s about your sexuality, so being gay and being unable to live as a gay person, or if that’s wanting to engage in BDSM and not having an outlet for that.

无论是关于你的性取向，比如身为同性恋而无法作为同性恋者生活，还是想要参与 BDSM 但没有发泄渠道，这都是事实。

So that can just make you unhappy.

所以这只会让你不开心。

So I think that the stigma there is that that unhappiness is going to lead to some sort of horrible manifestations of crime.

所以我认为，这种不快乐会导致某种可怕的犯罪表现，这是一种耻辱。

1:21:22 I think that is mostly nonsense, but it’s more that I’m concerned about the mental health consequences for the individual who’s unable to explore those sides of themselves.

我认为这大多是无稽之谈，但更重要的是，我担心那些无法探索自己这些方面的人对心理健康的影响。

And in research on kinks and sexuality, it’s just about also making sure that we have visible representation of certain kinds of communities, and so that’s one of the reasons I ended up writing Bi.

在对怪癖和性行为的研究中，这也是为了确保我们对某些类型的社区有明显的代表性，所以这就是我最终写 Bi 的原因之一。

I came out in Making Evil.

我在《制造邪恶》中出柜。

Making Evil is the UK title, Evil in the US.

《Making Evil》是英国版，《Evil》是美国版。

I came out because I was writing about all the things we associate with the word evil, and homosexuality certainly is one of those things.

我出来是因为我写的都是我们与邪恶这个词联系在一起的所有事物，同性恋当然就是其中之一。

You came out as bisexual, by the way, yeah.

顺便说一下，你是双性恋，是的。

Yeah, I came out as bisexual.

是的，我是双性恋。

1:21:56 And I came out as bisexual in the book, and I did it specifically, and I wrote it this way as well, because I was talking about the importance of visibility and how it’s through visibility that you realize that the people around you, people you already know and love, are part of this community that otherwise feels other.

我在书中以双性恋的身份出现，我特意这么做了，我也是这样写的，因为我谈论的是可见性的重要性，以及如何通过可见性让你意识到你周围的人，你已经认识和爱的人，是这个社区的一部分，否则他们会感觉与众不同。

It feels foreign, it feels abstract, and maybe it feels scary.

感觉很陌生，感觉抽象，也许还感觉可怕。

But if you realize that actually you’ve got gay friends or you’ve got friends who are into certain kinds of fetishes or you’ve got friends who are whatever sexuality aspect you’re talking about, you suddenly go, “Oh, it’s going to be much harder to dehumanize these people.” And this is where all of this kind of comes for me from a really sad place is the…

但如果你意识到你实际上有同性恋朋友，或者你有一些有某种恋物癖的朋友，或者你有一些你所谈论的性方面的朋友，你会突然说，“哦，让这些人失去人性会变得更加困难。”这对我来说是一个非常悲伤的地方......

1:22:41 You could talk about Bi as this project of love and how I was finding the community.

你可以把 Bi 作为一个爱的项目来谈论，以及我是如何找到这个社区的。

I was trying to write something that would bring us all together.

我试图写一些能让我们大家团结在一起的东西。

But it’s also because I’m constantly terrified that my rights are going to be stripped back.

但这也是因为我一直害怕我的权利会被剥夺。

And we know that the laws around homosexual behavior and the rights around bisexual people as well, they’re in flux.

我们知道，有关同性恋行为的法律和双性恋者的权利也在不断变化。

There’s no straight line of acceptance.

没有直线的接受。

And just because right now I happen to live in a time and place where I’m allowed to be openly bisexual and I can engage in homosexual activity, that doesn’t mean that’s going to stay, not even necessarily in my lifetime.

仅仅因为现在我碰巧生活在一个允许我公开成为双性恋并且可以从事同性恋活动的时间和地点，但这并不意味着这种情况会持续下去，甚至不一定会在我的一生中持续下去。

1:23:20 And so I think much like writing Evil at a time when you’re not at war and you’re able to think deeply about these important issues, I think we also need to be thinking about things like sexuality and other issues that are important to us.

所以我认为就像在非战争时期写《邪恶》一样，你能够深入思考这些重要问题，我认为我们也需要思考性和其他对我们很重要的问题。

And if we want to preserve our rights, we need to normalize these issues and make sure that they’re visible so that people find it harder to dehumanize those communities.

如果我们想保护我们的权利，我们需要使这些问题正常化，并确保它们是可见的，以便人们更难对这些社区进行非人性对待。

And so I’m always terrified that bisexual people are going to be hypersexualized, dehumanized again, and that there’s going to be laws against basically just who I am.

所以我总是害怕双性恋者会再次被过度性化、非人化，而且会有法律基本上反对我是谁。

Did you hear from a bunch of people after Making Evil, after Evil, the book, and mentioning and coming out in that book, and then writing the Bi book, that are bisexual and maybe what are some stories?

在《制造邪恶》之后，在《邪恶》这本书之后，你是否听说过一群人在那本书中提到并出柜，然后写了《双性恋》书，他们是双性恋，也许有一些故事？

1:23:47 I’m sure, because I haven’t seen much material on it, as you spoke to, so I’m sure they felt lonely without a community, right?

我确信，因为正如你所说，我还没有看到太多这方面的材料，所以我确信没有社区他们会感到孤独，对吗？

Yeah, a lot of people felt seen by the book.

是的，很多人都觉得这本书被看到了。

1:24:08 So it was really beautiful, the fan mail I got and the responses to the book.

所以我收到的粉丝来信和对这本书的回应真的很美。

And I got them from all over the world.

我从世界各地得到了它们。

And so in the book, I also spoke with some researchers who were stationed or doing research in countries where bisexual behavior specifically is illegal, or homosexual behavior was illegal.

因此，在书中，我还采访了一些在双性恋行为特别非法或同性恋行为非法的国家驻扎或进行研究的研究人员。

For a long time, bisexuality was, especially in women, well, actually, homosexuality in women in general was seen as…

很长一段时间以来，双性恋，尤其是女性，嗯，实际上，女性的同性恋一般被视为……

It was a blind spot, because what counted as sex is sex with a penis.

这是一个盲点，因为用阴茎进行性行为才算性行为。

1:24:41 And so women can’t have sex with one another.

因此，女性之间不能发生性关系。

And so a lot of laws around homosexuality are specifically applying to men.

因此，许多有关同性恋的法律都专门适用于男性。

And certainly, historically, that’s the case.

当然，从历史上看，情况确实如此。

So we’re talking about like sodomy, and that involves men and not women.

所以我们谈论的是鸡奸，这涉及男性而不是女性。

And so if you look at the evolution of laws, for a while, women were kind of…

因此，如果你看看法律的演变，有一段时间，女性是……

Like it was socially not necessarily acceptable, but they were kind of getting away with it legally.

就好像这在社会上不一定是可以接受的，但他们在某种程度上可以合法地逃脱惩罚。

But then more recently, especially, as bisexuality gets more visible as well, certain countries have started writing it specifically into their constitutions and specifically into their laws that bisexual identities and behaviors are also seen as problematic and illegal.

但最近，特别是随着双性恋变得越来越明显，某些国家已经开始专门将其写入宪法和法律，双性恋身份和行为也被视为有问题和非法。

So again, these laws change all the time.

再说一遍，这些法律一直在变化。

1:25:24 But in terms of fan mail, especially from people in countries where homosexuality and bisexuality are illegal or are seen as problematic, are socially condemned…

但就粉丝邮件而言，尤其是来自同性恋和双性恋非法或被视为有问题的国家的人们，受到社会谴责……

that was particularly important.

这一点特别重要。

So that those people were particularly writing, saying, some of them also saying, “Can I translate this into this other language, on the DL, like on the down low?

因此，那些人特别写信说，其中一些人还说，“我可以在 DL 上将其翻译成另一种语言吗？

And just, like, distribute this to my friends?” I had people sending me messages saying, “I’m at X airport or in X country where this is, this would be considered contraband.” Like this book, my book is a banned book, fun fact.

然后，就像把这个分发给我的朋友们一样？”有人给我发消息说：“我在 X 机场或 X 国家，这会被视为违禁品。”就像这本书一样，我的书是一本禁书，有趣的事实。

Nice.

好的。

It was banned.

它被禁止了。

1:25:59 I sold the rights to a foreign publisher, and right after it was sold, the laws changed, and they sent me this really sad email saying, “Unfortunately, we can’t publish your book because it’s now considered part of the gay agenda, sort of promoting gay and homosexual lifestyles.

我把版权卖给了一家外国出版商，在卖掉之后，法律就发生了变化，他们给我发了一封非常悲伤的电子邮件，说：“不幸的是，我们不能出版你的书，因为它现在被认为是同性恋议程的一部分，有点促进同性恋和同性恋的生活方式。

And so we can’t publish it anymore.” But I take a little bit of pride in the fact that it’s a banned book, but I find it really sad, obviously, as to what it means, but it also makes me feel like it’s more important.

所以我们不能再发布它了。”但我对这是一本禁书这一事实感到有点自豪，但显然，我发现它真的很难过，至于它的含义，但这也让我觉得它更重要。

And that’s what people were writing to me about.

这就是人们写信给我的内容。

What advice would you give to young people, or just people in general, that are trying to figure out their sexuality or how to speak about their sexuality?

对于那些试图弄清楚自己的性取向或如何谈论自己的性取向的年轻人，或者只是一般人，您有什么建议？

I’d say try and read widely on issues around sexuality.

我想说的是，尝试广泛阅读有关性的问题。

1:26:37 Books like mine, but also other books, might help you to navigate whether or not you’re, you know, what labels there are, and also whether or not those labels are good for you.

像我这样的书，还有其他书，可能会帮助你了解你是否，你知道，有哪些标签，以及这些标签是否对你有好处。

I think things like the Klein grid are really helpful, especially for people who are more analytically minded like you and I.

我认为像克莱因网格这样的东西确实很有帮助，特别是对于像你我这样更具分析头脑的人。

I think it gives you a construct to work with and numbers to work with, and that can be really helpful to try and go almost seeing your sexuality as a mathematical equation.

我认为它为你提供了一个可以使用的结构和可以使用的数字，这对于尝试将你的性取向视为一个数学方程非常有帮助。

And I think that can be quite useful.

我认为这非常有用。

And if that’s how you think, then look at the Klein grid and see if that helps you to navigate things.

如果你是这样想的，那么看看克莱因网格，看看它是否能帮助你驾驭事物。

A bit of a tricky question, but what are the pros and cons of coming out publicly as a non-standard sexuality?

这是一个有点棘手的问题，但是公开公开自己的非标准性取向有什么好处和坏处呢？

1:27:16 From a recommendation perspective, what are some benefits and what are some challenges?

从推荐的角度来看，有哪些好处和挑战？

So the benefits are that you can, well, live authentically.

所以好处是你可以真实地生活。

1:27:31 You can just be yourself.

你可以做你自己。

So I do feel more free in who I am and who I’m able to be online, for example, now that I’m out.

因此，我确实对自己是谁以及我能够上网的人感到更加自由，例如，现在我出去了。

Because I came out in my 30s, I think also it was almost a foot-in-the-door technique, which is a psychological technique of first coming in and then coming with your big ask.

因为我在30多岁的时候就出柜了，所以我认为这几乎是一种入门技巧，这是一种先进来，然后带着你的大要求而来的心理技巧。

And so I’d already published two books.

所以我已经出版了两本书。

I was already an established scientist.

我已经是一位成熟的科学家了。

I think if I tried “bi” first, I, A, wouldn’t have been able to publish the book.

我想如果我先尝试“bi”，我A就无法出版这本书。

It was the first mainstream book on bisexuality ever.

这是有史以来第一本关于双性恋的主流书籍。

And B, I don’t think I would’ve been taken seriously as a scientist.

B，我认为我不会被认真对待作为一名科学家。

So having the other stuff first and then “bi” as a side project, that was acceptable.

因此，先做其他事情，然后将“bi”作为一个副项目，这是可以接受的。

But I think the other way around wouldn’t have been.

但我认为反过来就不会了。

I think it was still brave, I think.

我认为这仍然是勇敢的。

1:28:16 I think you mentioned somewhere, maybe in an interview, that there was some concern of being sexualized when you covered the topic of sexuality.

我想你在某处提到过，也许是在一次采访中，当你谈论性话题时，有人担心被性化。

There still is, but I actually find that it’s done the opposite most of the time.

仍然存在，但我实际上发现大多数时候都是相反的。

1:28:26 I think as a woman, especially a young woman who’s in the public eye, you’re sexualized anyway, unfortunately.

我认为作为一名女性，尤其是一名在公众视野中的年轻女性，不幸的是，无论如何，你都被性感化了。

And so that is and was already a huge part of my online experience.

因此，这已经是我在线体验的重要组成部分。

And actually, I think coming out as bi, A, you get allies who suddenly are like, “We’re on your side.

事实上，我认为以 bi, A 的身份出现，你会得到盟友，他们会突然说：“我们站在你这边。

We’re going to help you fight the hypersexualization.” And people get almost more weird about it in a good way.

我们将帮助你对抗过度性化。”人们以一种好的方式对此变得更加奇怪。

They get a bit quiet about it because they’re like, “Oh, well, now it’s an identity thing, so maybe I shouldn’t comment on what she’s wearing.” And it almost disarmed some of the more sexualized comments.

他们对此有点安静，因为他们会说，“哦，好吧，现在这是一个身份问题，所以也许我不应该评论她的穿着。”这几乎消除了一些更具性色彩的评论。

So for me, I have to say it was mostly a positive experience.

所以对我来说，我不得不说这主要是一次积极的经历。

The incels didn’t know what to do with it.

非独者们不知道该怎么办。

Exactly.

确切地。

1:29:15 Like, “Ugh.”

就像，“呃”。

Just to go back to the beginning, maybe what got you interested in criminal psychology?

回到开头，也许是什么让您对犯罪心理学感兴趣？

Well, if you look at my trajectory into academia and then through it, basically what happened is I was ready to go study art.

好吧，如果你看看我进入学术界的轨迹，然后通过它，基本上发生的事情是我准备好去学习艺术了。

Nice.

好的。

That’s what happened.

这就是发生的事情。

1:29:33 I had my portfolio ready to go.

我已经准备好了我的投资组合。

I was going to study art at undergrad, and then my grandfather intervened and was like, “Being an artist is a really hard life.

我本来打算在本科学习艺术，然后我的祖父介入并说：“作为一名艺术家的生活真的很艰难。

Maybe you should reconsider.”

也许你应该重新考虑一下。”

What kind of art?

什么样的艺术？

1:29:45 Sorry to take that tangent.

抱歉，采取了切线。

Painting.

绘画。

That is fast.

那很快。

1:29:48 I would not have expected that, because you’re so super analytical.

我没想到会这样，因为你分析能力很强。

Yeah, I am, but I also really like surrealism, and I really like messing with sense of reality, which again, is obviously something that then wove its way into my academic work.

是的，我是，但我也真的很喜欢超现实主义，而且我真的很喜欢搞乱现实感，这显然又融入了我的学术工作。

That’s cool

太酷了

…but he was also right.

……但他也是对的。

1:30:03 I mean, I’ve always been very intellectual, let’s just say.

我的意思是，我一直很聪明，这么说吧。

I skipped a couple grades in school.

我在学校跳了几个年级。

I was part of the chess club.

我是国际象棋俱乐部的成员。

It was very much I was the clever kid.

我确实是个聪明的孩子。

But there’s also part of me that’s just like, “But art is beautiful.

但我也有这样的想法：“但是艺术是美丽的。

I love making art, and it can speak to so many people.” Anyway, my grandfather convinced me not to do it, and then I applied instead for psychology.

我热爱艺术创作，它可以与很多人交流。”不管怎样，我的祖父说服我不要这样做，然后我转而申请了心理学。

Although at that point you just had to say social sciences.

尽管那时你只需要说社会科学。

You didn’t have to specify, but I knew it was probably going to be psychology.

你不必具体说明，但我知道这可能是心理学。

And the reason for that was because my dad has paranoid schizophrenia.

原因是我父亲患有偏执型精神分裂症。

I think one of the reasons I’m so obsessed with this idea of what is real, and that is in every way, that…

我认为我如此痴迷于真实的想法的原因之一，从各个方面来说，......

1:30:45 I mean that in terms of what is real, in terms of perceptions of right and wrong, what is real in terms of our own memories of the world, what is real in terms of what happened in a crime, what is real in terms of perceptual abilities and neuroscience, what is real.

我的意思是，就什么是真实的，就对与错的看法而言，就我们自己对世界的记忆而言，什么是真实的，就犯罪中发生的事情而言，什么是真实的，就感知能力和神经科学而言，什么是真实的，什么是真实的。

I mean that in every way, and I think that’s because I grew up with someone who had a unique view of what is real in real-time.

我的意思是从各个方面来说，我认为这是因为我和一个对实时真实事物有独特看法的人一起长大。

And so seeing that, I think, just affected me profoundly, because not only was it very destabilizing in terms of my upbringing, but also it’s just in your face that people quite literally are seeing and hearing different things than you.

因此，我认为，看到这一点对我产生了深远的影响，因为这不仅对我的成长过程非常不稳定，而且就在你的脸上，人们看到和听到的东西与你完全不同。

And to not jump from that to what else are people perceiving differently than me, I think, would be almost like a missed opportunity.

我认为，如果不从这一点跳到人们与我的看法不同的其他地方，那几乎就像是错失了机会。

1:31:34 And so I went to study psychology partly to understand that and what was going on there, and then that took me down the reality hole.

所以我去学习心理学，部分是为了了解这一点以及那里发生的事情，然后这让我陷入了现实的困境。

Honestly, the reason I went into criminal psychology, because I could have gone into any other.

老实说，我之所以选择犯罪心理学，是因为我本来可以选择其他专业。

The criminal psychologists were the most fun.

犯罪心理学家是最有趣的。

I feel like lots of psychologists take themselves so seriously, and I just couldn’t.

我觉得很多心理学家都这么认真地对待自己，而我就是做不到。

I was like, “I don’t, this isn’t the vibe.” And so the criminal psychologists were, they had this gallows humor.

我当时想，“我不，这不是氛围。”犯罪心理学家也是如此，他们有这种绞刑架幽默。

They were doing arguably the most serious of the crimes and the cases, and yet, were somehow having fun and having nice lives.

他们正在犯下可以说是最严重的罪行和案件，但不知怎的，他们却享受着乐趣，过着美好的生活。

And I saw myself, and I went, “Well, I want to do this version.” And so I did.

我看到了自己，然后我说：“好吧，我想做这个版本。”我也这么做了。

Yeah, that’s great to hear, that a criminal psychologist because probably they have to, more than any other subfield, confront the reality of the mind.

是的，很高兴听到犯罪心理学家这样说，因为他们可能比任何其他子领域都更需要面对心灵的现实。

And it’s often quite procedural.

而且这通常是相当程序化的。

1:32:24 So I’m also much more interested in applied sciences because I like the idea of, you know, what do we do with this information?

所以我对应用科学也更感兴趣，因为我喜欢这样的想法，你知道，我们如何处理这些信息？

And the thing that interests me most from a research perspective, I mean, I did my PhD in false memories, so implanting false memories of committing crime, which was the study that ended up going viral because I was the first to do it.

从研究的角度来看，我最感兴趣的事情是，我在错误记忆中完成了博士学位，因此植入了犯罪的错误记忆，这项研究最终被病毒式传播，因为我是第一个这样做的。

And I built on a history of people implanting false memories of various kinds of other emotional events.

我建立在人们植入对各种其他情感事件的错误记忆的历史之上。

But it was the first time that someone had combined false confessions research and false memory research.

但这是第一次有人将虚假口供研究和虚假记忆研究结合起来。

And so that was the research of Elizabeth Loftus and Saul Kassin.

这就是伊丽莎白·洛夫特斯和索尔·卡辛的研究。

So false confessions was Saul Kassin, and false memories was Elizabeth Loftus.

所以索尔·卡辛就是虚假的供词，伊丽莎白·洛夫特斯就是虚假的记忆。

1:33:07 And I was just doing them both at the same time.

我只是同时做这两件事。

And the question was, could you get people to believe that they committed a crime that never happened and confess to it?

问题是，你能让人们相信他们犯下了从未发生过的罪行并承认这一点吗？

And not just that, but believe that it actually happened, so remember it?

不仅如此，还要相信它确实发生过，所以还记得吗？

And the answer to that in short is yes, you can, especially using specific leading and suggestive interview techniques.

简而言之，答案是肯定的，你可以，尤其是使用特定的引导性和暗示性访谈技巧。

And so the procedural learning from that, which is what I’m most interested in, I don’t, like that’s sort of a party trick to be able to actually do it.

因此，从中进行程序性学习，这是我最感兴趣的，我不喜欢这实际上是一种聚会技巧。

And that’s just so that you can then take that and go, “Okay, well, how do we prevent this?” And so I’ve since trained police lawyers.

这样你就可以接受这个问题，然后说：“好吧，我们如何防止这种情况发生？”所以从那时起我就开始培训警察律师。

1:33:39 I’ve trained people at the ICC, the International Criminal Court, who deal with collective memory.

我在国际刑事法院培训过处理集体记忆的人员。

So they deal with hundreds of witnesses at a time in war crimes.

因此，他们一次要与数百名战争罪证人打交道。

And the question is, how do we try to preserve as original as possible memory without contaminating it?

问题是，我们如何尽可能保留原始记忆而不污染它？

Or at least without contaminating it any more than it already is.

或者至少不会比现在更严重地污染它。

And that’s where social psychology, I think, excels, is that we have done lots of research on how social settings change what people say, and to some extent, what people believe.

我认为，这就是社会心理学的优势所在，我们对社会环境如何改变人们的言论以及在某种程度上改变人们的信仰进行了大量研究。

And I think that’s also where the leap to things like AI is not far because ultimately, the way that we’re engaging with large language models and generative AI in general, is that it’s structured as a social interaction.

我认为这也是人工智能之类的飞跃并不遥远的地方，因为归根结底，我们与大型语言模型和生成式人工智能的互动方式，是它被构建为一种社交互动。

1:34:22 It’s structured as a conversation most of the time now, and that is what we do.

现在大多数时候它都是以对话的形式构建的，这就是我们所做的。

That is literally what I train the police on doing, is how to make sure that you don’t distort people’s memories in the process and how to ask good questions.

这就是我训练警察要做的事情，就是如何确保在这个过程中不会扭曲人们的记忆，以及如何提出好的问题。

And so you get confabulations from both sides now.

所以现在双方都在闲聊。

You get confabulations from AI and from the people.

你会从人工智能和人们那里得到闲聊。

And the problem is that there’s a third thing, which is the in-between, that I’m not sure is getting enough attention right now.

问题是还有第三件事，即介于两者之间的事情，我不确定现在是否得到了足够的关注。

And I wish that there was more integration of social scientists like me and people who do investigative interviewing and have done it for decades to understand what is happening in the in-between.

我希望像我这样的社会科学家和从事调查性访谈数十年的人们能够更多地融合在一起，以了解其间发生的事情。

And so that we can both teach the people and the AI to respond better in that situation.

这样我们就可以教导人们和人工智能在这种情况下更好地做出反应。

I mean, it’s really interesting.

我的意思是，这真的很有趣。

1:35:03 Are you saying that there’s a drift of some kind in terms of on both AI and human side when they’re interacting together that we need to be very clear about?

你是说人工智能和人类在互动时存在某种我们需要非常清楚的漂移吗？

Yes.

是的。

1:35:13 What we’ve created with Gen AI is basically the ultimate false memory machine.

我们用 Gen AI 创造的基本上是终极的错误记忆机器。

We have created a tailored experience of something that is most of the time telling you what it thinks you want to hear, and then it’s uncritically giving that to you.

我们创造了一种量身定制的体验，大多数时候它会告诉你它认为你想听到的内容，然后不加批判地将其提供给你。

Or I mean, sometimes, of course, there’s other things where it’s sort of appraising whether or not this is truthful or not.

或者我的意思是，有时，当然，还有其他一些事情可以评估这是否真实。

But it is giving that to you.

但它正在把它给你。

1:35:43 And there’s no safeguard from you just going, “This is truth, and this is my past,” or, “This is how I remembered it.” And the problem is that not only is AI potentially distorting people and their memories, and never mind the factual basis on which they’re relying, but it’s also the other way around is that potentially by asking leading or problematic questions, the people are changing how the AI is creating the content, which is in turn on some fundamental level potentially having an impact on how it’s discerning truth from fiction.

没有任何保障可以阻止你说：“这是事实，这是我的过去”，或者“这就是我记忆中的样子。”问题在于，人工智能不仅可能扭曲人们和他们的记忆，更不用说他们所依赖的事实基础，而且反过来说，人们可能通过提出引导性或有问题的问题，改变人工智能创建内容的方式，而这反过来在某些基本层面上可能会影响它辨别真假的方式。

And so that’s where the false memory in human minds and confabulations in AI, I think, are much more similar than we think.

所以我认为，这就是人类头脑中的错误记忆和人工智能中的虚构比我们想象的更加相似的地方。

1:36:22 And when I first saw AI confabulate, hallucinate, I was like, “This is what people do all the time.” It’s just that we can’t fact-check them all the time.

当我第一次看到人工智能闲聊、产生幻觉时，我想，“这就是人们一直在做的事情。”只是我们无法一直对它们进行事实核查。

We’re not in a conversation constantly being like, “Well, is that quite right?

我们在谈话中不会总是这样说：“嗯，这样好吗？

I’m going to use that for my homework,” right?

我要用它来做我的作业，”对吗？

So it’s both juicy and really troubling.

所以它既有趣又令人不安。

Well, right now the interactions are pretty ephemeral.

嗯，现在互动非常短暂。

1:36:40 They’re short-lasting, and there’s not really a deep memory to the interactions.

它们的持续时间很短，而且互动并没有真正深刻的记忆。

But this could get a lot worse if the AI is personalized to a degree where it remembers things about you so that you can then start to, over many interactions, feed the narrative about your past that you construct together with the AI over time.

但如果人工智能个性化到一定程度，它会记住关于你的事情，这样你就可以开始通过多次互动，反馈你与人工智能一起构建的关于你过去的叙述。

But you don’t even need that.

但你甚至不需要那个。

1:37:05 So this is what we find in investigative interviewing, which is police interviewing of witnesses and suspects, is that all you need is a leading question or a suggestive piece of information.

这就是我们在调查性访谈中发现的，即警方对证人和嫌疑人的访谈，你所需要的只是一个引导性问题或一条暗示性的信息。

In a short interaction, most people, most police officers—

在短暂的互动中，大多数人，大多数警察——

Oh, interesting

哦，有趣

…don’t spend a long time, and they have no memory of this person’s past.

……时间不长，他们就对这个人的过去没有记忆了。

1:37:18 They know basically nothing about them except for things related to the crime.

除了与犯罪有关的事情之外，他们对他们基本上一无所知。

And yet we know that within that very short, maybe half hour, one hour interaction, people’s stories can change fundamentally.

然而我们知道，在很短的、也许是半小时、一小时的互动中，人们的故事可以发生根本性的改变。

And the problem is that if you create, if you have a memory of something that when you pull it up in that social interaction, it’s sort of live.

问题是，如果你创造了某个东西，如果你对某个东西有记忆，当你在社交互动中把它拉出来时，它就有点活了。

It’s like active.

就好像主动的一样。

1:37:43 And when you then finish that interaction, it sets back down.

当你完成这种互动时，它就会恢复原状。

And the thing is that if you put it back in a different way, what’s going to happen is the next time you’re going to remember the latest version.

问题是，如果你以不同的方式把它放回去，下次你会记住最新版本时就会发生这种情况。

And you might not realize that it shifted.

你可能没有意识到它发生了变化。

And so over time, it can shift and you don’t realize it, and that’s your truth.

所以随着时间的推移，它可能会发生变化，而你却没有意识到，这就是你的真相。

And that’s where even just short interactions can have a profound impact on the human mind.

这就是即使只是短暂的互动也能对人类思维产生深远影响的地方。

Wow, so you can modify memories that quickly?

哇，你修改记忆的速度这么快？

Yeah.

是的。

1:38:09 We do all the time in experiments.

我们一直在做实验。

Okay, can you speak a little bit more to false memory?

好吧，你能对错误记忆多说一点吗？

1:38:11 So, like th- it’s just fascinating.

所以，就像——这真是令人着迷。

So things happen to us, we humans do things in the world, and then we remember them, and most of our lives, I guess, is lived in memory, in remembering the things that happened to us.

所以事情发生在我们身上，我们人类在世界上做事，然后我们记住它们，我想，我们一生的大部分时间都生活在记忆中，记住发生在我们身上的事情。

And you’re saying that we can modify the story we tell about the things that happened to us?

你是说我们可以修改我们所讲述的发生在我们身上的事情的故事？

That’s fascinating.

这很有趣。

So what do we know about this ability to have false memories?

那么我们对这种错误记忆的能力了解多少呢？

We know that false memories are common, that they’re a feature of a normal, healthy brain.

我们知道错误记忆很常见，它们是正常、健康大脑的一个特征。

1:38:40 They’re not this glitch, they are a feature.

它们不是故障，而是一个功能。

And we know that false memories are incredibly common in terms of, if you think about basically any memory…

我们知道，如果你想想任何记忆，错误的记忆是非常常见的……

Now, I’m interested in autobiographical memories.

现在，我对自传式记忆感兴趣。

This isn’t memories of facts, this is memories of experiences, things that you’ve lived in some way.

这不是对事实的记忆，而是对经历的记忆，对你以某种方式生活过的事情的记忆。

And of those autobiographical memories, basically every single autobiographical memory you have is false.

在这些自传体记忆中，基本上你拥有的每一个自传体记忆都是错误的。

The question isn’t whether it’s false, the question is how false.

问题不在于是否错误，而在于错误程度如何。

You’re despairing over there.

你在那边绝望了。

Well, I mean, yeah, that’s…

嗯，我的意思是，是的，那就是……

1:39:14 I mean, it’s both beautiful and terrifying-

我的意思是，它既美丽又可怕——

Right

右

…

……

1:39:18 that nu- nothing is real.

nu——没有什么是真实的。

No, that’s not, that’s not what I’m saying.

不，不是的，我不是这个意思。

Okay.

好的。

I’m just saying that everything has a degree of falsehood to it.

我只是说，一切事物都有一定程度的虚假性。

1:39:21 And this is where sometimes I’ll get accused of being like, “Oh, but that…

这就是有时我会被指责为“哦，但是那个......

does that mean we can never use witness statements?” That…

这是否意味着我们永远不能使用证人证言？”那……

I’m not saying we can’t use any witness statements.

我并不是说我们不能使用任何证人证言。

I’m just saying that we need to be careful because even if people say things with confidence, it doesn’t necessarily mean they’re true.

我只是说我们需要小心，因为即使人们说得很有信心，也并不一定意味着他们是真的。

Or if they have multisensory details, they’re describing in very specific detail what they smelled, what they heard, what they…

或者，如果他们有多感官细节，他们会非常具体地描述他们闻到什么、听到什么、他们……

whatever, it doesn’t mean it’s necessarily true.

无论如何，这并不意味着它一定是真的。

Most of the time our autobiographical memories are good enough.

大多数时候，我们的自传式记忆就足够好了。

1:39:54 And that’s where memory scientists talk about this as gist memory.

这就是记忆科学家将其称为要点记忆的地方。

Our gist memory for events, much like for text, you get the gist of it, right?

我们对事件的要点记忆，就像对文本的记忆一样，你明白了它的要点，对吧？

You’re good enough.

你已经足够好了。

You generally remember accurately approximately what happened.

您通常能够准确地记得所发生的事情。

But it’s when you get to the so-called verbatim details, the specific details of memories that you find people are often really bad.

但当你触及所谓的逐字细节时，你会发现人们的记忆的具体细节往往非常糟糕。

Now, most of the time that doesn’t really matter because you remember you hung out with a friend, you remember you were at this university, you remember approximately what your favorite cafe was, you remember this important negative or positive event, fine.

现在，大多数时候这并不重要，因为你记得你和朋友一起出去玩，你记得你在这所大学，你记得你最喜欢的咖啡馆是什么，你记得这个重要的消极或积极的事件，很好。

You don’t actually need to know exactly what you were wearing and drinking and saying.

你实际上不需要确切地知道你穿什么、喝什么、说什么。

1:40:33 But in a criminal justice setting, you do need to remember exactly what you were drinking and saying and doing, right?

但在刑事司法环境中，您确实需要准确记住您喝了什么、说了些什么、做了什么，对吗？

And so that’s where we have this need to break down this human capacity for memory to this level of detail that it’s just not made for.

因此，我们需要将人类的记忆能力分解到其不适合的细节水平。

So that’s where the verbatim stuff can get you into trouble, because with criminal cases, I suppose the tiniest details really matter, because then the lawyers can really zoom in on that particular detail, and then you could just make that up.

所以这就是逐字记录的内容可能会给你带来麻烦的地方，因为对于刑事案件，我认为最微小的细节确实很重要，因为这样律师就可以真正放大那个特定的细节，然后你就可以弥补它。

1:40:50 And then the interrogation with a leading question, as you were saying, can just alter your memory of a particular detail, and then everything will hang on that detail.

然后，正如你所说，带有引导性问题的审讯只能改变你对某个特定细节的记忆，然后一切都将取决于该细节。

Right, and if that particular detail is someone’s face, then that’s a really big problem.

是的，如果那个特定的细节是某人的脸，那就是一个很大的问题。

You’re right.

你说得对。

And so, and it can also be an entire false memory.

所以，它也可能是一个完整的错误记忆。

1:41:17 So this is where in my research and in research like mine, we’ve implanted, well, memories, what we call memories or false memories, of experiences that never happened at all.

所以这就是在我的研究和像我这样的研究中，我们植入了记忆，我们称之为记忆或错误记忆，那些根本从未发生过的经历。

So while most things are modifications of real memories, false memories, complete false memories are when you think you experienced something that you didn’t.

因此，虽然大多数事情都是真实记忆的修改，但错误记忆、完全错误记忆是指你认为自己经历过一些你没有经历过的事情。

And we all have them.

我们都有。

We all have some memories that can’t be true, and we usually realize them, for example, when we talk to our parents about our childhood or when we talk to friends and we say, “Remember that time we did this?” And your friend will go, “That happened to me, that didn’t happen to you.”

我们都有一些不真实的记忆，但我们通常会意识到它们，例如，当我们与父母谈论我们的童年时，或者当我们与朋友交谈时，我们说：“还记得我们那次这样做吗？”你的朋友会说：“这发生在我身上，但没有发生在你身上。”

1:41:57 And you become what is known in research as a memory thief, where you’ve stolen somebody else’s memory and you’ve accepted it, or your brain has accepted it as your own.

你就成了研究中所谓的记忆窃贼，你偷走了别人的记忆，然后你接受了它，或者你的大脑已经接受了它作为你自己的记忆。

And that’s possibly because the other person told it in such vivid detail that you could imagine it, and basically your brain was like, “Well, this feels real now.” And so the next time you thought about that, maybe, maybe not the next time, but maybe after a couple of times of thinking about it, you started going, “This happened to me, right?” And then you integrate it into your autobiography.

这可能是因为对方以如此生动的细节讲述了它，你可以想象它，基本上你的大脑就像，“好吧，现在感觉是真实的。”所以，下次当你想到这个时，也许，也许不是下一次，但也许经过几次思考后，你开始说，“这发生在我身上，对吗？”然后你把它融入到你的自传中。

How hard is it to insert false memories?

插入虚假记忆有多难？

Not hard.

不难。

1:42:29 It’s very easy to distort memories or to insert small false memories.

扭曲记忆或插入小的错误记忆是很容易的。

It’s harder to convince people of entire events, especially specific events.

很难让人们相信整个事件，尤其是特定事件。

And this is widely debated exactly how easy it is to implant a specific false memory.

人们广泛争论植入特定错误记忆到底有多容易。

It’s also one of the big debates around my own research is that when I was writing The Memory Illusion, which was my first book, and the research that was in line with that, there was this huge debate between me and a couple of other academics about what it means for something to be a false memory and how we should talk about the ease with which they’re implanted, and that is still one of the biggest scientific debates in our field.

围绕我自己的研究的一个大争论是，当我写《记忆错觉》（这是我的第一本书）以及与之相关的研究时，我和其他几位学者之间就错误记忆意味着什么以及我们应该如何谈论它们被植入的难易程度进行了一场巨大的争论，这仍然是我们领域最大的科学争论之一。

And to me, I think that’s…

对我来说，我认为那是……

1:43:09 So the, the, the coding stuff is about the difference between what some people call a false belief and a false memory.

所以，编码的内容是关于一些人所说的错误信念和错误记忆之间的区别。

So I think this thing happened or I remember this thing happened, and that is a really difficult differentiation often because all we have as social psychologists is what you’re telling me.

所以我认为这件事发生了，或者我记得这件事发生了，这通常是一个非常困难的区分，因为我们作为社会心理学家所拥有的就是你告诉我的。

And I can ask you, “Do you think it really happened or not?

我可以问你：“你认为这件事真的发生过吗？

Do you believe it really happened?” But it’s really hard to differentiate, and so I’ve always thought that you need to ask people about the specifics, like, “All right, how confident are you in this memory?

你相信这真的发生过吗？”但这真的很难区分，所以我一直认为你需要询问人们具体的细节，比如，“好吧，你对这段记忆有多大信心？

All right, do you feel things in this memory?

好吧，你在这段记忆中感受到了什么吗？

Does it feel like other kinds of mem-” Right?

是不是感觉就像其他类型的记忆——”对吗？

1:43:43 Sort of, like, describe the nature of this experience rather than being like, “Do you think this is a real memory?” Because that’s, that’s a hard thing to ask people to do.

有点像描述这种经历的本质，而不是像“你认为这是真实的记忆吗？”因为要求人们去做是一件很难的事情。

So you, you want to get indirectly as many signals as possible to show that they actually believe the thing happened.

所以你，你想间接获得尽可能多的信号，以表明他们确实相信这件事发生了。

Or that it approximates a memory in their minds, that’s right, rather than just a thing they think kind of sort of happened.

或者说它近似于他们脑海中的记忆，这是对的，而不仅仅是他们认为发生过的事情。

1:44:04 But other people think that it’s an easier to differentiate line.

但其他人认为这是一条更容易区分的线。

So for me, that, it’s almost impossible to differentiate the two.

所以对我来说，区分两者几乎是不可能的。

Other people think it’s more clear.

其他人认为这样更清楚。

And then in terms of the frequency, so in my research, 70% of people became convinced that they committed a crime that never happened or experienced another important emotional event.

然后就频率而言，在我的研究中，70％的人确信他们犯了从未发生过的犯罪或经历过其他重要的情感事件。

And that number as well is, is challenged in that people go, “Well, does that mean that 70% of people can have false memories like this?” And the answer is no, obviously not.

这个数字也受到了挑战，因为人们会问：“这是否意味着 70% 的人都会有这样的错误记忆？”答案是否定的，显然不是。

That’s just in my sample.

这只是我的样本中的情况。

That’s just these specific six false memories.

这就是这六个具体的错误记忆。

And it could be that I, I think 100% of people are prone to some version of this, just maybe not in this specific study, right?

我认为 100% 的人都可能会出现这种情况，只是在这项具体研究中可能不会，对吧？

1:44:46 That if I had to come up with different false memories to implant or if I was a different person myself and people trusted me differently, there’s the, again, those social factors that make it more or less likely that I’m going to be able to convince you that something happened in your life that you can’t remember.

如果我必须想出不同的错误记忆来植入，或者如果我自己是一个不同的人，人们对我的信任也不同，那么，这些社会因素再次使我或多或少有可能让你相信你生活中发生了一些你不记得的事情。

And in one study, obviously, I can’t capture that.

显然，在一项研究中，我无法捕捉到这一点。

But it also doesn’t mean that 70% of the time people are…

但这也不意味着 70% 的时间人们……

you know, it might be 1% of the time or 0.1% of the time that people have these complex false memories.

你知道，人们可能有 1% 或 0.1% 的时间有这些复杂的错误记忆。

I guess you’re just speaking to the fact that, you know, you don’t know how representative the sample is.

我想你只是在谈论这样一个事实：你知道，你不知道样本的代表性有多大。

1:45:10 But even from one study, that’s a crazy…

但即使从一项研究来看，这也是疯狂的……

that’s incredible.

这太不可思议了。

Well, it’s not- …just representativeness.

嗯，这不是……只是代表性。

1:45:19 It’s also that we shouldn’t take individual studies in that way.

还有就是我们不应该以这种方式进行个体研究。

Sure.

当然。

I’m not saying that 70% of people always have false memories either.

我并不是说 70% 的人总是有错误的记忆。

1:45:24 It just means in this one study, more people than not developed these complex memories.

这只是意味着在这项研究中，更多的人形成了这些复杂的记忆。

What was the methodology for implanting the false memories?

植入虚假记忆的方法是什么？

1:45:31 This is so cool, by the way.

顺便说一句，这太酷了。

Human memory is so fascinating, and the fact that we can engineer memory…

人类的记忆是如此令人着迷，事实上我们可以改造记忆……

It’s good that it’s fast.

好在速度快。

…it’s so interesting.

……太有趣了。

1:45:43 It’s also really interesting that we live so much of our lives in memories.

有趣的是，我们一生的大部分时间都生活在记忆中。

And that you can mess with that.

你可以搞乱它。

You can shape it.

你可以塑造它。

It’s interesting.

这很有趣。

It’s mostly, I think, a good thing that we can shape it.

我认为，我们能够塑造它，这在很大程度上是一件好事。

I think so.

我想是的。

1:45:56 Yeah.

是的。

I think the fact that memory can be false in the way that I do it in my study is a result of the fact that our minds are made to creatively recombine information to solve problems in the present.

我认为，我在研究中的记忆可能是错误的，这是因为我们的大脑天生会创造性地重新组合信息来解决当前的问题。

1:45:57 So even the fact that we have this gist memory, it’s because we’re optimizing data processing.

因此，即使我们拥有这样的要点记忆，也是因为我们正在优化数据处理。

We’re basically saying, “These are the most important things from these events, and the other details are irrelevant.

我们基本上是在说：“这些是这些事件中最重要的事情，其他细节无关紧要。

Don’t remember that.

不记得了。

Gone.

走了。

And now I’m going to work with that to try and solve what life comes up with.” The ability to be creative and intelligent relies on our ability to take memories from the past and pieces of them, and to creatively recombine them.

现在我将努力解决生活中遇到的问题。”创造力和智慧的能力依赖于我们从过去及其片段中获取记忆并创造性地重新组合它们的能力。

1:46:39 And so that’s what false memories are, except that that then can look bad if you’re trying to remember something specific.

这就是错误记忆，只不过如果你试图记住一些特定的东西，那么错误记忆可能看起来很糟糕。

In my research, I used leading and suggestive questions like, “Close your eyes.” “Picture the event that I’m trying to implant.” So I was implanting, for example, you’re 14 years old.

在我的研究中，我使用了引导性和暗示性问题，例如“闭上你的眼睛”。 “想象一下我试图植入的事件。”所以我就植入了，比如说，你14岁了。

You were in contact with the police.

您已与警方取得联系。

The police called your parents, and you assaulted someone with a weapon.

警察打电话给你的父母，你用武器袭击了某人。

Then the question is, “What do you remember?” And you say to me as a participant, because you’ve been selected out to specifically never having had this experience…

接下来的问题是：“你还记得什么？”而你作为参与者对我说，因为你被选中是为了专门从未有过这种经历......

And just to be clear, a weapon, I don’t mean a semi-automatic weapon.

需要澄清的是，武器，我并不是指半自动武器。

I mean anything.

我的意思是任何东西。

And usually it was a rock.

通常它是一块岩石。

1:47:18 So people would say, “I found…” because a weapon is just anything you use to hurt another person.

所以人们会说，“我发现……”因为武器就是你用来伤害另一个人的任何东西。

I did this study in Canada.

我在加拿大做了这项研究。

We don’t have guns in the same way as in some other parts of the world.

我们不像世界其他地方那样拥有枪支。

So it was unlikely that my participants would have been like, “Yeah, I totally have all these guns.” They would take something, an object, and hurt somebody else, or they stole something, or they hit somebody.

因此，我的参与者不太可能会说：“是的，我完全拥有所有这些枪。”他们会拿走一些东西，一个物体，并伤害别人，或者他们偷东西，或者他们打别人。

So those are three of the conditions.

这就是其中三个条件。

1:47:40 I randomly assigned people to them, and they knew that I contacted their loved ones ahead of time, so they were participating in a childhood memory study, an emotional childhood memory study.

我随机给他们分配了人，他们知道我提前联系了他们的亲人，所以他们正在参加一项童年记忆研究，一项情感童年记忆研究。

They knew that, and then I contacted their parents ahead of time to get information about what they were like as teenagers, where they lived, friends, basic things, and to make sure they hadn’t ever experienced any of the target events.

他们知道这一点，然后我提前联系了他们的父母，了解他们青少年时期的情况、住在哪里、朋友、基本情况，并确保他们没有经历过任何目标事件。

Then with that information, I said to the participants, “Okay, so there are these two things your parents reported happening, and one of them is a true one.” I’d always include a true one to build rapport, which is…

然后，根据这些信息，我对参与者说：“好吧，你的父母报告说发生了这两件事，其中一件是真实的。”我总是会加入一个真正的人来建立融洽的关系，那就是……

I’m doing the what not to do of interviewing, right?

我正在做采访中不该做的事，对吧？

Right.

正确的。

I’m laying it on thick.

我把它铺得很厚。

To see what’s possible.

看看有什么可能。

To see what’s possible, because you have to push it to also show that I can do this in this context so that we can warn police to not do this.

看看有什么可能，因为你必须推动它也表明我可以在这种情况下做到这一点，以便我们可以警告警察不要这样做。

1:48:20 So I said, “We have these two incidents that your parents reported, and one of them was you had a skiing accident,” blah, blah, blah.

所以我说，“我们有你父母报告的这两起事件，其中之一是你发生了滑雪事故，”等等，等等，等等。

“Let’s start with that one.

“我们就从那个开始吧。

The second one was an incident where you were in contact with the police, but we’ll get to that.” So we’d first have 20 minutes talking about the true memory, which people, you know, they’re getting going.

第二起事件是你与警方接触的事件，但我们会解决这个问题。”所以我们首先用 20 分钟的时间讨论真实的记忆，你知道，人们正在开始记忆。

It feels good.

感觉很好。

I’ve got a structured interview as well, which I’ll then mirror in the false memory.

我也进行了一次结构化面试，然后我会将其反映在错误记忆中。

So it all feels very legit.

所以这一切感觉非常合法。

Then we get to the second memory, and I say this, you know, I…

然后我们进入第二个记忆，我说这个，你知道，我……

1:48:56 “There’s this other important memory that your parents recalled.” They’d say, “I don’t remember that.” And I’d say, “Oh, okay.

“你父母还记得另外一个重要的记忆。”他们会说：“我不记得了。”我会说：“哦，好吧。

But I have this really detailed account.

但我有一份非常详细的记录。

All you have to do is remember it.” Then I would do the illusion of transparency, which is a really powerful psychological tool, which is to make people feel like they know what’s going on when they don’t really.

你所要做的就是记住它。”然后我会制造出透明的幻觉，这是一种非常强大的心理工具，可以让人们感觉他们知道发生了什么，但实际上他们并不知道。

The thing I would do is just say, “Well, you know, if you want to, we can do this memory retrieval technique called this imagination exercise.” I don’t like to call it repression, but sometimes we hide away memories that we don’t like about ourselves.

我要做的就是说，“好吧，你知道，如果你愿意，我们可以做这种记忆检索技术，称为想象力练习。”我不喜欢称之为压抑，但有时我们会隐藏自己不喜欢的记忆。

And I’m using words that people know and mechanisms that people have heard of that are frankly quite disputed in actual science.

我使用的是人们知道的词语和人们听说过的机制，坦率地说，这些在实际科学中颇有争议。

1:49:34 But people go, “Oh, well, maybe I did repress this.” And then everybody says yes.

但人们会说，“哦，好吧，也许我确实压抑了这一点。”然后每个人都说是的。

Technically they could say no.

从技术上讲，他们可以说不。

They can say, “No, I don’t want to do that.” But they go, “Yeah, of course I want to know.” So I do this imagination exercise where people close their eyes, very simple, and just imagine how, what could have happened basically.

他们可以说：“不，我不想那样做。”但他们会说：“是的，我当然想知道。”所以我做这个想象练习，人们闭上眼睛，非常简单，想象一下基本上会发生什么。

And every time they say a detail, my very first detail ever, I remember this because I was so excited because they’ve got their eyes closed, right?

每次他们说一个细节，我有史以来的第一个细节，我都会记得这一点，因为我很兴奋，因为他们闭上了眼睛，对吗？

And I’m right next to the head of department because they were worried because I was a PhD student about the ethics of it, the consequences.

我就在系主任旁边，因为他们很担心，因为我是一名博士生，担心它的道德和后果。

Yeah.

是的。

It took years to get the protocol through ethics and…

该协议花了数年时间才通过道德规范……

Yeah

是啊

…to make sure it was safe.

……以确保它是安全的。

1:50:06 Anyway, I’m grinning as the person with their eyes closed says the most trivial detail, “I remember a blue sky.” And I remember going, “It’s working.”

不管怎样，当那个闭着眼睛的人说出最琐碎的细节时，我笑着说：“我记得有一片蓝天。”我记得我说：“它起作用了。”

Did you know it was going to happen at all?

你知道这会发生吗？

Oh, no, I had no idea.

哦，不，我不知道。

1:50:22 I had no idea.

我不知道。

That’s so fascinating.

这太令人着迷了。

And so from the trivial details, I’d always say, “Yeah, good job, good job.” You know, social reinforcement, little treat, little treat.

因此，从琐碎的细节中，我总是会说：“是的，干得好，干得好。”你知道，社会强化，小待遇，小待遇。

1:50:25 And they would remember more and more details, and then they’d get more specific, and then they’d tell me who it was they allegedly attacked or stole from, where they were.

他们会记住越来越多的细节，然后他们会变得更加具体，然后他们会告诉我他们据称攻击或偷走了谁，他们在哪里。

And those details had to come from them because I don’t know enough about their lives, right?

这些细节必须来自他们，因为我对他们的生活了解不够，对吗？

So this is the other thing with false memories, is it’s basing it on lots of real pieces of memories, real places, real people, real feelings.

所以这是虚假记忆的另一件事，它是基于大量真实的记忆、真实的地方、真实的人、真实的感受。

They’re just woven together in a way that never happened.

它们只是以一种从未发生过的方式编织在一起。

And so just three interviews and you’ve got 70% of people confessing to a crime that never happened.

因此，只需 3 次采访，70% 的人就会承认从未发生过的犯罪行为。

First of all, great study.

首先，好好学习。

1:50:58 Great, great job all around.

太棒了，一切都很棒。

To what degree has this been sort of elaborated on and proven further since?

此后在何种程度上对此进行了详细阐述和进一步证明？

Because it’s a super powerful idea, whether it’s 70% or any kind of percent.

因为这是一个超级强大的想法，无论是 70% 还是任何百分比。

What I wanted with the study is just to show it’s possible.

我希望通过这项研究来证明这是可能的。

That’s the, that’s really the powerful thing, that it’s possible.

这就是，这确实是最强大的事情，它是可能的。

Right.

正确的。

1:51:17 And so it could’ve been two people, and I would’ve been happy.

所以可能是两个人，我会很高兴。

The fact that it was so possible was frankly quite surprising to everybody.

坦白说，这种可能性如此之大，让每个人都感到非常惊讶。

And we did in fact cut the study short because we told ethics that we’re only going to have like a 13% hit rate.

事实上，我们确实缩短了研究，因为我们告诉伦理道德，我们只会有 13% 的命中率。

We were like, “Uh, this is working really well.

我们的反应是，“呃，这真的很好用。

We’re going to stop.” So, and that was just because of, you know, how power calculations, whatever.

我们要停下来了。”所以，这只是因为，你知道，功率计算等等。

Science.

科学。

1:51:38 Because science.

因为科学。

And since then there have been other studies on implanting false memories.

从那时起，就有了其他关于植入错误记忆的研究。

There have been ones also using AI tools, so like whether or not we remember or think we remember incidents differently or better if they were created with AI images of ourselves, or videos.

有些人也在使用人工智能工具，比如我们是否记得或认为我们是否会以不同的方式或更好地记住事件，如果它们是用我们自己的人工智能图像或视频创建的。

So there was a study that came out, I think it was this year, by a team including Elizabeth Loftus, which showed that if you turn photos of yourself into videos using AI, that you are more likely to believe that those things happened in the way that AI is telling you that they did, even though AI has absolutely no idea.

因此，包括伊丽莎白·洛夫特斯在内的一个团队今年发表了一项研究，该研究表明，如果你使用人工智能将自己的照片变成视频，你更有可能相信这些事情按照人工智能告诉你的方式发生，尽管人工智能完全不知道。

And that then you are more likely to remember it, yeah, with high confidence that it happened in the way that this AI has created it.

然后你就更有可能记住它，是的，非常有信心它是按照人工智能创造它的方式发生的。

1:52:23 And so we can see that there’s lots of versions of this, whether it’s in, you know, interpersonal social interactions or interactions with tech.

所以我们可以看到有很多版本，无论是在人际社交互动还是与技术的互动中。

And there’s a big replication that’s happening right now at the University of Maastricht of my study, or is about to happen hopefully actually, is where we’re at.

马斯特里赫特大学正在对我的研究进行大规模复制，或者希望实际上即将发生，这就是我们现在所处的位置。

There’s a lot of questions I want to ask you.

我有很多问题想问你。

1:52:40 Like one of them, doesn’t this mean that at scale you could have something like a government use propaganda to mass gaslight a population?

就像其中之一一样，这是否意味着在规模上你可以让政府利用宣传来大规模煽动民众？

So implant m- false memories u- using AI, using, using whatever tools they have?

那么植入m-错误记忆u-使用人工智能，使用，使用他们拥有的任何工具？

Yes.

是的。

1:53:01 That is definitely already happening.

这肯定已经发生了。

That’s terrifying.

那太可怕了。

1:53:06 Is there any- anything you’ve learned about defending against that?

你有什么关于防御的经验教训吗？

I guess knowing that first step is just knowing that it’s possible, that’s already a very powerful piece of knowledge.

我想知道第一步只是知道它是可能的，这已经是一个非常强大的知识了。

That’s right.

这是正确的。

1:53:19 So the first thing that’s important is for people to understand that they are capable of creating these false memories and that they’re not this really unusual, hard-to-generate thing.

因此，首先重要的是让人们明白，他们有能力创造这些错误记忆，而且它们并不是真正不寻常、难以生成的东西。

They’re actually a normal memory process.

它们实际上是一个正常的记忆过程。

And that insight is why I wrote The Memory Illusion because I think people need to just understand that their minds work like this, and that they’re really glitchy when it comes to the accuracy of their autobiographical memories.

这种洞察力就是我写《记忆错觉》的原因，因为我认为人们需要明白他们的思维是这样运作的，而且当涉及到自传体记忆的准确性时，他们真的很容易出问题。

But again, that’s probably ultimately a good thing as well in terms of our overall human experience.

但同样，就我们人类的整体体验而言，这最终可能也是一件好事。

But then what happens if you do have an important piece of information that’s important and not being distorted, right?

但是，如果您确实拥有一条重要且没有被扭曲的重要信息，会发生什么，对吧？

1:53:55 You are a witness to a crime, for example, and you now know that this is going to be important.

例如，您是犯罪行为的目击者，现在您知道这很重要。

What do you do?

你做什么工作？

And the really simple answer is don’t trust your brain.

真正简单的答案是不要相信你的大脑。

Just make sure you write it down.

只要确保你把它写下来。

Assume you are going to forget everything.

假设你会忘记一切。

Assume you’re going to forget no matter how important, how emotional, how intense, how much you say to yourself, “I will remember.” You won’t.

假设你会忘记，无论你对自己说过多少次“我会记住”，无论多么重要、多么情绪化、多么强烈。你不会的。

Just assume that you’re not going to remember.

假设你不会记得。

And the closer you get to the time at which an event happened — and we call this contemporaneous evidence — the closer you get in time, the more high-quality that memory is going to be.

距离事件发生的时间越近（我们称之为同时代证据），时间越接近，记忆的质量就越高。

1:54:32 And I think there’s this myth sometimes that if you’re drunk or if you’re high or if you’re really emotional, that somehow you should wait.

我认为有时有这样一个神话：如果你喝醉了，或者你喝醉了，或者你真的很情绪化，那么你应该等待。

You should sort of go home, sleep it off, and then recall your memory.

你应该回家，睡一觉，然后回忆起你的记忆。

That is not what the current advice in memory research actually says.

目前记忆研究中的建议实际上并不是这样说的。

It’s in the moment as soon as possible, write it down, record it outside your brain.

尽快把它写下来，记录在你的大脑之外。

You can do it again when you wake up, but then at least you have an original version.

当你醒来时你可以再做一次，但至少你有一个原始版本。

Yeah.

是的。

1:54:57 You used the analogy of a Wikipedia page for memory.

您使用了维基百科页面的类比来进行记忆。

I think that’s a pretty useful way to think about it.

我认为这是一种非常有用的思考方式。

It’s kind of crowdsourced by all the different influences you have, all the different experiences, all the other people, you telling other people about the memory.

这是一种众包，由你所拥有的所有不同影响、所有不同经历、所有其他人、你告诉其他人的记忆组成。

All of that edits the page, the Wikipedia page of your memory.

所有这些都会编辑页面，即您记忆中的维基百科页面。

It does.

确实如此。

1:55:18 And collective and individual memory are these really interesting…

集体记忆和个人记忆真的很有趣……

They interact in a really interesting way.

他们以一种非常有趣的方式互动。

So I would always say, when I train, for example, people who go to deal with warlords in the German military.

所以我总是会说，当我训练那些去对付德国军队中的军阀的人时。

I was working with agents who were going abroad and who were in these really difficult situations where they had to remember a lot of information that was important for national security.

我和那些要出国的特工一起工作，他们处于非常困难的境地，他们必须记住很多对国家安全很重要的信息。

They couldn’t just sit there with a tape recorder being like, “Hey,” or their phone, being like, “Hey, Mister Warlord, can you just talk into this a bit closer?” You can’t do that.

他们不能只是坐在那里拿着录音机说“嘿”，或者拿着手机说“嘿，军阀先生，你能再仔细谈谈吗？”你不能那样做。

And so you have to remember it.

所以你必须记住它。

1:55:52 And so what they were doing is they were coming back from their deployments, and they would meet up immediately and have a team meeting, “What did you remember?

所以他们所做的就是从部署回来后，他们会立即见面并召开团队会议，“你还记得什么？

What happened?” And the problem is that they would do that before writing their notes, and that is the wrong way around.

发生什么事了？问题是他们会在写笔记之前这样做，这是错误的做法。

And so they don’t do that anymore because I’ve told them not to do that anymore.

所以他们不再这样做了，因为我已经告诉他们不要再这样做了。

But it feels good.

但感觉很好。

It feels like collectively, we are going to remember more details.

感觉我们集体会记住更多细节。

Hmm.

唔。

Because you do, but it doesn’t mean that those details are right.

因为你这样做了，但这并不意味着这些细节是正确的。

1:56:17 And so that’s where I’d always say, “Have your own version before you talk to anybody.” Then, and my colleague, Dr. Annelise Fredevelt, is one of the experts on the effect of things like eye closure on memory and collective memory, and she has found repeatedly that if you remember things together, especially if you’ve already got an original version of your own, you do usually remember more details.

所以这就是我总是说的：“在与任何人交谈之前，先要有自己的版本。”然后，我的同事安妮丽丝·弗雷德维尔特博士是研究闭眼等因素对记忆和集体记忆影响的专家之一，她多次发现，如果你一起记住事情，特别是如果你已经有了自己的原始版本，你通常会记住更多细节。

And especially if you are helping each other to remember, like in a relationship.

尤其是当你们互相帮助记忆时，就像在一段关系中一样。

You’ll have someone who’s better at remembering certain kinds of details, maybe names or what happened or what you were doing, and the other person’s better at when it happened.

你会遇到一个更擅长记住某些细节的人，也许是名字、发生的事情或你正在做的事情，而另一个人更擅长记住事情发生的时间。

1:56:57 And so you can have these complementary memories that come in in social situations, and you can then have more details that are remembered after.

这样你就可以在社交场合中获得这些互补的记忆，然后你就可以记住更多的细节。

Right, but there are conflicting forces here.

是的，但是这里存在着相互冲突的力量。

1:57:05 So that’s true, but also as you said, it’s true that together, you can weave a narrative that never happened.

确实如此，但正如你所说，确实，你们可以一起编织一个从未发生过的故事。

So together, you can solidify the thing that actually happened, maybe if you take notes beforehand.

因此，如果您事先做笔记，您可以一起巩固实际发生的事情。

But at the same time, if you don’t take notes, then you can just make stuff up very effectively together because you’re like, “Yes,” ending the whole time, like building together a castle that’s false.

但与此同时，如果你不做笔记，那么你就可以非常有效地一起编造一些东西，因为你会说“是的”，结束整个时间，就像一起建造一座虚假的城堡一样。

Or distorted.

或者扭曲了。

Distorted.

扭曲了。

Yeah.

是的。

1:57:34 But you can also sometimes go back to your original account and go, “Actually, no, that was a bit wrong.” And so my, as again, an analytical person and someone who works as an expert witness on memory cases, I just want to see all the versions.

但有时你也可以回到原来的帐户并说：“实际上，不，那有点错误。”因此，作为一名分析人士和记忆案例专家证人，我只想看看所有版本。

I want your version history.

我想要你的版本历史记录。

I want the complete version history of your memory, and then I can tell you whether I think things have gone wrong here.

我想要你记忆的完整版本历史，然后我可以告诉你我是否认为这里出了问题。

And if so, why?

如果是这样，为什么？

Have you seen like different versions of memory and they’re really conflicting?

你是否见过不同版本的内存并且它们确实是相互冲突的？

1:57:55 Like what have you learned about memory from that, that they can be very conflicting?

就像你从中学到了什么关于记忆的知识一样，它们可能是非常矛盾的？

People explain the same experience as very different.

人们将相同的经历解释为截然不同的经历。

Well, there’s different people having very different memories of the same experience.

嗯，不同的人对同样的经历有截然不同的记忆。

1:58:09 And there’s the same person having different memories of the same experience.

同一个人对同一经历有不同的记忆。

And so I work in both, in some ways, as an expert witness, but mostly in the individual changing their story in a dramatic way.

因此，在某些方面，我作为专家证人，在这两个领域工作，但主要是个人以戏剧性的方式改变他们的故事。

Ah, yeah.

啊，是的。

So a witness or an alleged victim saying that they, you know, having X story the first time they go to the police, and then three years later, having a very different, sometimes categorically different account.

因此，目击者或所谓的受害者说，他们，你知道，第一次去警察局时就有 X 故事，然后三年后，有一个非常不同的，有时是完全不同的叙述。

1:58:24 And the question is, were they just too shy initially to say what really happened?

问题是，他们一开始是否太害羞而不敢说出到底发生了什么？

Were they under pressure from other people?

他们是否受到其他人的压力？

Were they not really remembering?

他们真的不记得了吗？

You know, why has it changed?

你知道为什么会变吗？

Or could it be that they have undergone some really problematic hypnotherapy or just shady therapy in general that has convinced them that things are maybe much worse than they initially remembered?

或者他们是否经历了一些真正有问题的催眠治疗，或者只是一般的阴暗治疗，使他们相信事情可能比他们最初记忆的要糟糕得多？

1:59:03 And it’s not that therapy doesn’t necessarily…

这并不是说治疗不一定......

Therapy can bring out more details, for sure, but the problem is that certain kinds of therapy mirror what we do in false memory research in terms of implanting false memories, and it just makes it really messy and it makes the quality of the evidence really low because we can no longer tell what is because of the therapy and what’s actually remembered.

当然，治疗可以带来更多细节，但问题是，某些类型的治疗反映了我们在错误记忆研究中植入错误记忆的做法，这只会让事情变得非常混乱，而且使证据的质量非常低，因为我们无法再分辨什么是因为治疗而导致的，什么是实际记住的。

This is so fascinating.

这太令人着迷了。

1:59:22 What are the ways you can possibly figure out which is true, the thing you remembered initially or the thing you’re now remembering four years later?

你可以通过什么方法来判断你最初记住的事情和四年后你现在记住的事情哪个是真实的？

Receipts.

收据。

1:59:31 That’s all you’ve got.

这就是你所拥有的一切。

You have to look at your original versions.

你必须看看你的原始版本。

If you only have your version now, the only thing you can look for is evidence that confirms or shows that it didn’t happen.

如果您现在只有自己的版本，那么您唯一可以寻找的就是证实或表明它没有发生的证据。

If you can’t access that, then it ultimately is a matter of, especially if you’ve got like two people saying completely different things, it ends up being a battle of confidence ultimately.

如果你无法访问这一点，那么这最终是一个问题，特别是如果你有两个人说完全不同的事情，那么这最终将成为一场信任之战。

This is a tricky question, but you mentioned therapy.

这是一个棘手的问题，但你提到了治疗。

1:59:51 It does seem like what therapists do is they want to find a problem, and they can then just project the problem and then convince you the problem existed.

治疗师所做的似乎就是他们想要找到问题，然后他们可以投射问题，然后让你相信问题的存在。

So how do you know…

那么你怎么知道...

Is therapy even an effective…

治疗是否有效？

It takes a very special therapist not to implant, right?

需要非常特殊的治疗师才能不植入，对吗？

A trauma that never happened or details that never happened to a trauma that did.

从未发生过的创伤或从未发生过的创伤的细节。

It depends on the kind of therapy.

这取决于治疗的类型。

2:00:22 So there’s a lot of therapy that is evidence-based and that is very much focused on tackling sort of feelings and reactions that you have right now.

因此，有很多基于证据的治疗方法，并且非常注重解决您现在的感受和反应。

Then there is an area or a bunch of areas of therapy, including psychoanalysis, which are very focused on trying to find retroactively sources of mental illness in your personal past.

然后是一个或多个治疗领域，包括精神分析，它们非常注重在你的个人过去中追溯精神疾病的根源。

And I am very critical of the kinds of…

我对这些类型非常批评……

Well, both from an explanatory perspective, but also from a false memory perspective.

嗯，既从解释的角度来看，也从错误记忆的角度来看。

I don’t think that we are the way we are because of individual incidents that happened to us.

我不认为我们是因为发生在我们身上的个人事件而成为现在的样子。

I think that is a wild thing to think about the brain.

我认为对大脑进行这样的思考是一件疯狂的事情。

To be like you are the way you are because of this one interaction you had that one time is like…

之所以成为现在的样子，是因为你们曾经有过这样的一次互动……

2:01:10 I mean, maybe this explains a tiny bit of you, but what about all the other life experiences you have every single day?

我的意思是，也许这可以解释你的一小部分，但是你每天经历的所有其他生活经历又如何呢？

And so I think that there’s sometimes an oversimplified searching for answers or sources of problems that we have that I don’t like.

因此，我认为有时对问题的答案或根源的寻找过于简单化，这是我不喜欢的。

I don’t think it’s true.

我认为这不是真的。

And I think that there can be an uncautious approach to memory, as you were saying, where you have someone who is saying things and your role as a therapist is to help them manage their emotions now and to feel better, and that’s the other thing is that they have a very different role than I do.

我认为，正如你所说，可以有一种不谨慎的记忆方法，有人在说话，而你作为治疗师的角色是帮助他们管理自己的情绪并感觉更好，另一件事是他们的角色与我的角色非常不同。

A therapist is trying to manage the person’s well-being now.

治疗师现在正在努力管理患者的健康。

Whereas I am looking at the evidentiary quality.

而我正在关注证据质量。

That is a complete…

那是一个完整的…

I’m almost not quite the other side, but I’m in a very different role.

我几乎不完全是另一方，但我扮演着一个非常不同的角色。

Well, you just want the truth.

好吧，你只是想要真相。

Well, I’m criticizing and analyzing their memories, whereas therapists are more likely to be trying to help them manage the memories in their day-to-day life.

嗯，我正在批评和分析他们的记忆，而治疗师更有可能试图帮助他们管理日常生活中的记忆。

2:01:50 And so it doesn’t matter if they’re true or not to therapists.

因此，对于治疗师来说，这些想法是否真实并不重要。

What matters is that they’re troubling to the people themselves.

重要的是他们给人民本身带来了麻烦。

But once you get into a courtroom setting, as you say…

但一旦你进入法庭，正如你所说……

…The facts and what actually happened matter.

……事实和实际发生的事情很重要。

And it’s not just what you remember, it’s what actually happened.

这不仅仅是你记得的事情，而是实际发生的事情。

Maybe you can speak to the other, the non-courtroom setting, because this is all…

也许你可以与其他人交谈，即非法庭环境，因为这就是……

2:02:13 The positive side of it is you can basically shape your memories to be happier.

积极的一面是，你基本上可以塑造你的记忆，让自己变得更快乐。

I mean, I find this in myself.

我的意思是，我在自己身上发现了这一点。

Maybe you could speak to that.

也许你可以谈谈这一点。

If I look into past relationships, if I just think about, or maybe speak to others about the positive things, really think.

如果我回顾过去的关系，如果我只是思考，或者也许与别人谈论积极的事情，认真思考。

Just think, like I focus my mind on the memory, on the positive memories.

想想吧，就像我把注意力集中在记忆上，集中在积极的记忆上。

And then everything just becomes more positive.

然后一切都会变得更加积极。

And I think it makes me feel like I’m way happier about my past.

我认为这让我觉得我对自己的过去感到更快乐。

So there must be something to that, because I almost start to forget that the negative stuff happened.

所以这肯定是有什么原因，因为我几乎开始忘记发生了负面的事情。

2:02:57 And then the same thing on the flip side is if you focus on the negative, then the negative stuff just overpowers everything else, and you have a very heavy, negative feeling about your past.

另一方面，同样的事情是，如果你专注于消极的事情，那么消极的事情就会压倒其他一切，你会对自己的过去产生非常沉重、消极的感觉。

So that seems like the way to live a healthy life, a happy life is just to focus on the positive.

所以这似乎是健康生活的方式，幸福的生活就是关注积极的一面。

Not to sound cliché, but basically modifying your memories continuously that everything was just great.

听起来不是陈词滥调，而是基本上不断地修改你的记忆，让一切都很棒。

Is there something to that?

有什么关系吗？

Well, the essence of that is right.

嗯，本质是对的。

2:03:27 There is something called state-dependent memory, which is that you’re more likely to remember things that were consolidated or created as memories if they match the state that you’re in now.

有一种叫做状态相关记忆的东西，也就是说，如果那些被巩固或创建为记忆的东西与你现在所处的状态相匹配，你就更有可能记住它们。

So if you are sad now and your brain’s just going, you’re more likely to remember other sad times because your memory and the emotional state of your brain is basically already activating those networks of sadness.

因此，如果你现在感到悲伤并且你的大脑刚刚开始运转，你就更有可能记住其他悲伤的时刻，因为你的记忆和大脑的情绪状态基本上已经激活了那些悲伤的网络。

And it’s like, “Here’s some other sad and shitty things that happened to you.” And it’s the same with if you are embarrassed.

就像，“这是发生在你身上的其他一些悲伤和糟糕的事情。”如果你感到尴尬，情况也是一样。

2:04:03 That’s the classic one that we usually use as memory researchers, is that moment where you do something embarrassing, and for the next six hours, all you’re thinking of is all the other embarrassing things you’ve ever done.

这是我们记忆研究人员通常使用的经典方法，就是当你做了一些令人尴尬的事情的那一刻，在接下来的六个小时里，你所想到的就是你曾经做过的所有其他尴尬的事情。

And it’s like your brain is like, “Would you like some other embarrassing stories?” And obviously you’re going, “No, thank you.

就像你的大脑在说，“你想要一些其他令人尴尬的故事吗？”显然你会说：“不，谢谢。

Please stop.” But you have this spreading activation, as it’s called, of just these synapses, just lighting up new networks, and you’re going, “Ah!” And there’s this other memory that’s attached to the same feeling.

请停下来。”但是，正如所谓的那样，这些突触的扩散激活，只是点亮了新的网络，然后你就会说，“啊！”还有与同样的感觉相关的其他记忆。

And so it’s the same with happiness is that people who are happier tend to remember more happy memories.

与幸福一样，越幸福的人往往会记住更多幸福的回忆。

2:04:37 And so most of the time, unless you’re depressed, most people look back at their lives with a rosy reminiscence bias, and they’re more likely to remember the positives than the negatives.

因此，大多数时候，除非你感到沮丧，否则大多数人都会带着乐观的回忆偏见回顾自己的生活，而且他们更有可能记住积极的一面，而不是消极的一面。

But it’s not quite the way you were describing it, actually.

但实际上，这并不完全是你描述的那样。

So it’s not quite that you only remember the objectively good things that happened.

所以，你并不完全只记得客观上发生的好事。

It’s more that your interpretation of the things that you’ve experienced is either neutral or positive.

更重要的是，你对所经历的事情的解释是中立的或积极的。

So for me, for example, growing up with my father with apparent schizophrenia, that is something that I see as a net positive.

例如，对我来说，与患有明显精神分裂症的父亲一起长大，我认为这是一个净积极的事情。

So obviously, at the time, it was experienced in a complicated way, but in hindsight, it defined my life, and it completely gave me a perspective of the human mind that I just wouldn’t have had otherwise.

显然，当时我经历了一种复杂的方式，但事后看来，它定义了我的生活，它完全给了我一个否则我不会有的人类思维视角。

2:05:22 And so I see that as a positive part of my autobiography, and that is what good therapy should be doing, is it should be taking negative experiences and not overwriting them or changing them.

因此，我认为，作为我自传的积极部分，这就是良好的治疗应该做的事情，那就是它应该接受消极的经历，而不是覆盖它们或改变它们。

I mean, our brains do that naturally anyway.

我的意思是，我们的大脑无论如何都会自然地这样做。

But trying to work with what you’ve got, the experiences, the true experiences, but then just shifting the emotional content so that how you’re dealing with them now is good.

但尝试利用你所拥有的、经历、真实的经历，然后改变情感内容，这样你现在处理它们的方式就很好。

How much of Danny Kahneman’s idea is that we live a lot of our life in memory?

丹尼·卡尼曼的想法中有多少是我们一生的大部分时间都生活在记忆中？

2:05:45 Like it’s not, you know, there’s the direct, in-the-moment experience of a thing, and then there’s remembering that thing over and over and over.

就像不是一样，你知道，对一件事有直接的、即时的体验，然后一遍又一遍地记住那件事。

So there’s like, I don’t know, getting married or whatever, like some pleasant thing that if you, over a lifetime, the pleasure you derive from that thing is disproportionately, most of it is from remembering the thing versus experiencing it.

所以，我不知道，结婚或者其他什么，就像一些令人愉快的事情，如果你在一生中，从那件事中获得的快乐是不成比例的，那么大部分是来自记住那件事而不是经历它。

Is there something to that?

有什么关系吗？

I think so.

我想是的。

2:06:22 And his experiments where he asked participants if they were offered this holiday that they could go on…

在他的实验中，他询问参与者是否可以继续这个假期……

…But they wouldn’t remember it.

……但他们不会记得。

So they’d have the present day experience of enjoyment on this holiday.

这样他们就能在这个假期里体验到现代的享受。

I think it was a tropical vacation or something that he’d offer people.

我认为这是一个热带假期或者他为人们提供的东西。

That’s right.

这是正确的。

And he then said, “Well, but you’re not going to be able to remember this.

然后他说：“好吧，但你不会记住这一点。

2:06:37 Would you still go?” And a lot of people say, “No, I wouldn’t go on that holiday if I can’t remember it.” I think that’s interesting and I think that sort of “pics or it didn’t happen” so that the social media generation obviously is perhaps even more in line with that also in terms of how you deal with that in social context.

你还去吗？”很多人说：“不，如果我不记得那个假期，我就不会去。”我认为这很有趣，而且我认为那种“有照片就没有发生”的情况，因此社交媒体一代显然在社交背景下如何处理这一问题方面更符合这一点。

Sharing those memories with others and those experiences, and which experiences end up being the important ones in our lives.

与他人分享这些记忆和经历，以及哪些经历最终成为我们生活中的重要经历。

Yeah, there’s a real case to be made.

是的，有一个真实的案例可以做。

2:07:07 You know, there’s this kind of ridiculous thing that happens now whenever something cool is happening, people take out their phones and film it.

你知道，现在每当有很酷的事情发生时，就会发生这种荒谬的事情，人们都会拿出手机拍摄下来。

But the case for that is that, yeah, this gives you actual something to look back at, that it’s worthwhile to take a picture, actually.

但事实是，是的，这给了你真正值得回顾的东西，实际上值得拍照。

Although it’s even more worthwhile to pay attention.

虽然更值得关注。

2:07:22 So attention is the glue between reality and memory.

所以注意力是现实和记忆之间的粘合剂。

And so if you’re using your phone to not have to pay attention and not have to put any work into remembering it, then you’re going to look at that picture later and go, “What was this?” because you’ve tried to outsource it in a way that our brains don’t work.

因此，如果你使用手机时不需要集中注意力，也不需要花费任何精力去记住它，那么你稍后再看那张照片时就会想，“这是什么？”因为你试图以一种我们的大脑无法工作的方式外包它。

How hard is it to modify memories from a neuroscience perspective?

从神经科学的角度来看，修改记忆有多难？

2:07:39 So if you look at brain computer interfaces like Neurolink for example, do you think there’s a future where we’re implanting or modifying memories directly?

因此，如果你看看像 Neurolink 这样的脑机接口，你认为未来我们会直接植入或修改记忆吗？

Yeah, I mean, that’s basically what we do as human beings already, and I don’t see why tech couldn’t do exactly the same thing.

是的，我的意思是，这基本上就是我们作为人类所做的事情，我不明白为什么科技不能做完全相同的事情。

Just speed that up.

只要加快速度就可以了。

2:08:01 So right now we could do that with language, right?

所以现在我们可以用语言来做到这一点，对吧？

We just talk to each other and modify them and we just speed that up.

我们只是互相交谈并修改它们，然后我们就加快速度。

Language, but also thinking about it yourself.

语言，还要自己思考。

2:08:07 So you can, it’s called auto-suggestion when you suggest things to yourself that didn’t happen.

所以你可以，当你向自己建议一些没有发生的事情时，这被称为自动建议。

And that often comes from reading something, or seeing something, or thinking about something, or hearing somebody else’s story and going, “Did something like that happen to me?” And then you start picturing it and thinking about it in what context it could have.

这通常来自于读到一些东西，或者看到一些东西，或者思考一些东西，或者听到别人的故事，然后问：“类似的事情发生在我身上吗？”然后你开始想象它并思考它可能存在的背景。

And then you start to basically implant a false memory in yourself.

然后你开始在自己身上植入错误的记忆。

And so that can happen as well.

所以这也可能发生。

And I think with things like Neurolink, it would be the same, where you’d have the ability to do that.

我认为像 Neurolink 这样的东西，也是一样的，只要你有能力做到这一点。

But again, I still think that this interaction between humans and AI, or AI-like systems, is…

但同样，我仍然认为人类与人工智能或类似人工智能的系统之间的互动是......

2:08:42 It is the same as a social interaction, which is why I was saying it’s so important, I think, that we have social psychologists in the room.

这与社交互动相同，这就是为什么我说它如此重要，我认为我们房间里有社会心理学家。

Because ultimately, whether it’s an AI or another person, it’s the same brain that you’re modifying.

因为最终，无论是人工智能还是其他人，你正在修改的都是同一个大脑。

So what you’re worried about there is that you become untethered from reality, like you fabricate too many details about the memory.

所以你担心的是你会脱离现实，就像你捏造了太多关于记忆的细节。

2:08:53 If a human is interacting with AI, and the AI is telling the human what they want to hear, are you worried about over time you start to just have a very overly modified version of your past narrative?

如果人类正在与人工智能交互，并且人工智能正在告诉人类他们想听的话，你是否担心随着时间的推移，你开始对过去的叙述进行过度修改？

I’m not necessarily worried about the fact that AI and generative AI can create false memories.

我不一定担心人工智能和生成式人工智能会创造错误记忆。

2:09:15 That is, again, something we’ve also been doing for a long time.

这也是我们长期以来一直在做的事情。

Like modified photos is something pre-AI that we had that was already messing with people’s minds.

就像修改照片一样，在人工智能出现之前，我们就已经在扰乱人们的思想了。

Even just what you have in the frame of a shot.

即使只是镜头中的内容。

So if you take a holiday snap and you’re omitting a really important part of what actually happened on that holiday because you’re taking a picture of the nicest part and not the, you know, the garbage behind you.

所以，如果你拍一张假期照片，你就忽略了假期中实际发生的事情的一个非常重要的部分，因为你拍的是最好的部分，而不是你身后的垃圾。

2:09:44 That is going to have an impact on your memory as well.

这也会对你的记忆力产生影响。

And so we’ve…

所以我们……

Versions of that have always existed.

其版本一直存在。

And historically, if you go even further back, I mean, in some ways we’ve never been closer to facts than we are now.

从历史上看，如果你追溯得更远，我的意思是，在某些方面，我们从未像现在这样更接近事实。

There’s this whole idea of like, “Oh, we’re living in this post-truth,” or blah, blah, blah, but that is not true.

整个想法就像是，“哦，我们生活在这个后真相”，或者等等，等等，但这不是真的。

I mean, we didn’t even know how to write for a long time.

我的意思是，我们很长一段时间都不知道如何写作。

We had no way of reliably cataloging information, never mind the scientific method, never mind reliably sharing it with one another, or fact-checking quickly with things like Google.

我们没有办法可靠地对信息进行编目，更不用说科学方法，更不用说可靠地相互分享信息，也没有办法通过谷歌等工具快速进行事实核查。

So I mean, we’re so close to facts, but that in some ways, I think, is the…

所以我的意思是，我们非常接近事实，但在某些方面，我认为……

2:10:21 The worry is that we’ve gotten comfortable feeling like we can just access things that aren’t modified or that are less likely to be modified, and now they’re more likely to be.

令人担忧的是，我们已经习惯了可以访问未修改或不太可能被修改的内容，而现在它们更有可能被修改。

And that can interface with our memories.

这可以与我们的记忆相连接。

So just a practical…

所以只是一个实用的...

2:10:31 Is there like a protocol for self-modifying memories so you can live a happier life?

有没有一种可以自我修改记忆的协议，让你过上更幸福的生活？

There is, yeah.

有，是的。

2:10:39 It’s called cognitive restructuring.

这就是所谓的认知重建。

When you actively, deliberately change an aspect of a memory usually for some therapeutic outcome, so to be happier, to be better in some way.

当你主动、刻意地改变记忆的某个方面时，通常是为了达到某种治疗效果，从而变得更快乐，在某些方面变得更好。

That’s really interesting, right?

这真的很有趣，对吧？

2:10:52 Like, not just for if you have some kind of issue, but just how to have a life well lived.

就像，不仅仅是你是否遇到某种问题，而是如何过上美好的生活。

Right?

正确的？

Does that work?

那有用吗？

Yeah, it totally works.

是的，它完全有效。

2:11:01 I mean, I do it all the time.

我的意思是，我一直这样做。

It’s…

这是……

Again, it’s about thinking about experiences you’ve had, positive or negative.

再说一遍，这是关于思考你所拥有的经历，无论是积极的还是消极的。

Usually the negative are the ones we need to work on more.

通常，消极的方面是我们需要更多努力的方面。

And thinking instead of, “Wow, how terrible was that?” thinking, “What did I learn from that?

并且思考而不是“哇，那有多可怕？”思考：“我从中学到了什么？

What has this given me that other people haven’t experienced?

这给了我什么别人没有经历过的东西？

What is it that it taught me about who are my friends?

它教会了我什么是我的朋友？

What are these insights that I’ve won from this experience?” And so I think that is an important part of resilience that we ideally need to celebrate and teach more than…

我从这次经历中获得了哪些见解？”因此，我认为这是韧性的重要组成部分，我们理想情况下需要庆祝和教导的不仅仅是……

The opposite, which is hanging in the negatives.

相反，它处于负面状态。

That’s probably really good for relationships too, right?

这可能对人际关系也很有好处，对吗？

2:11:36 Together you form the collective memory, and you work on that.

你们一起形成集体记忆，并为此努力。

You can just fabricate or modify towards the positive.

您可以朝着积极的方向进行制造或修改。

Well, with relationships, one of my favorite research on memories is that if you ask people in relationships who does most of the housework or who does most of certain things, the numbers that they give you…

嗯，在人际关系方面，我最喜欢的记忆研究之一是，如果你问恋爱关系中的人谁做了大部分家务或谁做了大部分某些事情，他们给你的数字......

2:11:47 So like someone will say, “I do 60%.” The other person will say, “I do 50%,” and you add them up, that’s more than 100%, and that’s basically always the case.

就像有人会说，“我做到了 60%。”另一个人会说，“我做到了50%”，你把它们加起来，就超过了100%，基本上都是这样。

And on lots of different fronts, people will claim that they do more, and if you ask them how much their partner does, they will diminish it.

在许多不同的方面，人们会声称他们做得更多，如果你问他们的伴侣做了多少，他们会减少它。

And so one of the tips I always say for relationships in terms of memories is actually just sharing what you’re actually doing.

因此，我经常说的关于记忆关系的技巧之一实际上就是分享你实际上在做的事情。

And so if you’ve…

所以如果你……

Initially it feels a bit cumbersome, because it’s quite unnatural to be like, “I’ve just taken out, you know, the rubbish.

最初感觉有点麻烦，因为这样很不自然，“我刚刚把垃圾拿出来了。

2:12:29 I’ve just taken out the bins.” Or, “I’ve just booked us a hotel.” But saying it out loud means the other person is able to perceive it and then can add it to their internal star chart of how much you’ve done in the relationship.

我刚刚把垃圾箱拿出来了。”或者，“我刚刚给我们订了一家酒店。”但大声说出来意味着对方能够感知到它，然后可以将其添加到他们的内部星图中，显示你在这段关系中做了多少事情。

And they’re more likely to actually perceive what you’re contributing.

他们更有可能真正意识到你所做的贡献。

Whereas we just assume that people have the same memories we do, and that they…

而我们只是假设人们拥有与我们相同的记忆，并且他们……

Of course, she remembers that I took out the bins, but not necessarily.

当然，她记得我把垃圾箱拿出来了，但不一定。

She might not even have really perceived it.

她或许还没有真正意识到这一点。

But if you’re reminding each other of all the things that you’re doing, it can feel more balanced over time.

但如果你们互相提醒自己正在做的所有事情，随着时间的推移，你们会感觉更加平衡。

This memory is just so fascinating.

这段记忆实在是太令人着迷了。

2:13:00 Is it possible…

有没有可能……

This is a little bit outside of the topic of false memories, but is it possible to train memory?

这有点超出了错误记忆的主题，但是记忆有可能训练吗？

What have you understood about memory?

关于记忆，你了解了什么？

Can it be improved?

可以改进吗？

Yep, it can be improved, and there are now some really good brain training apps as well that can help to get people to work better with attention, to have n-back tests, so remember information, a couple of pieces of information back.

是的，它可以改进，现在也有一些非常好的大脑训练应用程序，可以帮助人们更好地集中注意力，进行n-back测试，所以记住信息，记住一些信息。

2:13:12 So what did I tell you three sentences ago?

那我三句话之前告诉你什么呢？

There’s all of these kinds of, well, games effectively that you can play that will in fact train how your brain is using its networks.

您可以玩所有这些类型的游戏，这些游戏实际上可以训练您的大脑如何使用其网络。

There was one that was developed by researchers, including researchers at the University of Bonn in Germany, and it’s called NeuroNation, and that’s one that I like because it’s all these really short games.

有一个由研究人员开发的游戏，其中包括德国波恩大学的研究人员，它被称为 NeuroNation，这是我喜欢的一款游戏，因为它都是非常短的游戏。

2:13:52 And the idea is that doing one thing, like Sudoku or whatever, the sort of classics, to train your brain, that is only going to be useful up to a point because it’s then the same thing over and over again.

这个想法是，做一件事，比如数独或其他经典的事情，来训练你的大脑，这只会在一定程度上有用，因为它会一遍又一遍地做同样的事情。

And what you want to be doing is lots of different kinds of tasks so that your brain has to remain flexible.

你想要做的是许多不同类型的任务，这样你的大脑就必须保持灵活性。

And so short and many is the answer rather than one thing hard.

答案如此简短且众多，而不是一件困难的事情。

It’s almost the opposite of expertise.

这几乎与专业知识相反。

Yeah.

是的。

2:14:13 So in doing this regularly, like keeping your mind sharp…

因此，定期这样做，就像保持头脑敏锐一样……

That’s interesting.

这很有趣。

Uh…

呃……

I’m terrible at remembering names.

我记不住名字。

Me too.

我也是。

Is there a trick to doing that?

有什么技巧可以做到这一点吗？

I don’t know, because I’m also terrible at remembering names.

我不知道，因为我记名字也很糟糕。

2:14:29 Allegedly, there are tricks, and it’s mostly to make the information more sticky by making it a bigger network in the brain.

据称，其中有技巧，主要是通过在大脑中建立一个更大的网络来使信息更具粘性。

And so usually when you hear a name— Especially like you and I, it’s gone immediately.

所以通常当你听到一个名字——尤其是像你和我这样的名字时，它会立即消失。

And that’s partly because…

这部分是因为……

I like to think the positive of that is because we’re focusing on other things about the person.

我认为这样做的积极意义是因为我们关注的是这个人的其他方面。

2:14:48 Like, what are they like?

比如，他们是什么样的？

What are they…

他们是什么……

You know, what’s this next interaction going to be?

你知道，下一次互动会是什么？

Maybe you’re a bit nervous about what they’re going to say or what you’re going to say.

也许你对他们要说的话或你要说的话有点紧张。

You’re already thinking a step ahead in terms of interpreting the situation.

您已经在解释情况方面领先一步了。

And it’s quite an overwhelming situation when you first meet somebody because there’s a lot to take in.

当你第一次见到某人时，这是一种相当难以承受的情况，因为有很多东西需要接受。

And so if, however, a name is important, then you need to, A, remember to focus when they actually say their name and tune out the other stuff, which can be really difficult, and then to give yourself a mnemonic of, “How do I remember this name?” So you could visualize something.

然而，如果名字很重要，那么你需要记住，当他们真正说出自己的名字时，要集中注意力并忽略其他内容，这可能非常困难，然后给自己一个助记符，“我如何记住这个名字？”所以你可以想象一些东西。

You could have a weird word game or some sort of rhyme that you create for the person.

你可以为这个人创造一个奇怪的文字游戏或某种押韵。

2:15:29 You can say, “Julia with the big ears.” Like, whatever works for you, as long as it sticks.

你可以说，“朱莉娅有大耳朵。”就像，无论什么对你有用，只要它坚持下去。

Now, there’s a caveat that I recently discovered about myself in terms of why I might not have…

现在，我最近发现了一个关于自己的警告，为什么我可能没有……

I have particularly bad memory for names.

我对名字的记忆力特别差。

All of these mnemonic devices that have been studied over the last hundreds of years mostly rely on creating elaborate pictures in your mind.

过去数百年来研究的所有这些记忆方法大多依赖于在你的脑海中创建复杂的图像。

So, like memory champions, people who do competitive remembering, will tell you that they create these really elaborate images in their heads.

因此，就像记忆冠军一样，进行竞争性记忆的人会告诉你，他们在头脑中创造了这些非常复杂的图像。

I recently discovered that I have aphantasia.

我最近发现我患有失语症。

2:16:05 Aphantasia is the inability to create mental imagery.

失语症是指无法创造心理意象。

And so when I was trying these techniques, I was going, “None of these are working for me.” And it turns out it’s because I don’t see anything, whereas other people actually see pictures in their mind.

因此，当我尝试这些技术时，我会说：“这些技术都不适合我。”事实证明，这是因为我什么也没看到，而其他人实际上在他们的脑海中看到了图像。

And so I think there are some individual differences going on there that we haven’t quite understood.

因此，我认为存在一些我们尚未完全理解的个体差异。

So you’re not able to visualize…

所以你无法想象……

2:16:23 Can you imagine, like, a castle in your head and look at it?

你能在脑海中想象一座城堡并看着它吗？

No.

不。

2:16:28 So the memory palace idea is absurd to me.

所以记忆宫殿的想法对我来说是荒谬的。

Wow.

哇。

But the…

但是……

2:16:32 So the test for aphantasia is really easy, which is, “Close your eyes and picture a red apple.”

所以失语症的测试其实很简单，就是“闭上眼睛想象一个红苹果”。

You can’t picture a red apple?

你无法想象红苹果吗？

And I just see black.

我只看到黑色。

Wow.

哇。

Yeah.

是的。

2:16:43 And there’s a scale.

并且有一个尺度。

So some people are hyperphantasic, where they can have a really elaborate version of the apple.

所以有些人非常幻想，他们可以拥有一个非常精致的苹果版本。

And other people have, like, a gray sort of outline.

而其他人则有类似灰色的轮廓。

And I have nothing.

而我什么也没有。

Wait.

等待。

2:16:56 How does your memory work?

你的记忆力如何运作？

Like, if you think about a past event, are you…

就像，如果你回想过去发生的事情，你是……

Wait.

等等。

Am I visualizing a past event, or am I just—

我是在想象过去的事件，还是我只是——

Oh, that’s the question.

哦，这就是问题所在。

2:17:04 Or is it just a concept?

或者这只是一个概念？

I think it might be…

我想这可能是……

2:17:06 I might be operating in the space of concepts.

我可能是在概念空间中运作。

Hmm.

唔。

2:17:09 Because I do, and I think that’s why I’m so interested in concepts and ideas.

因为我确实如此，而且我认为这就是为什么我对概念和想法如此感兴趣。

And we know that people with aphantasia are less likely to care about their childhood memories because they can’t visualize them.

我们知道患有失语症的人不太可能关心他们的童年记忆，因为他们无法想象它们。

I’m trying to think if I can visualize people’s faces from the past.

我正在思考是否可以想象过去人们的面孔。

2:17:19 I have a feeling like I can.

我有一种感觉，我可以。

Ooh, but are you seeing anything?

哦，但是你看到什么了吗？

Am I actually seeing it?

我真的看到了吗？

2:17:27 I don’t know.

我不知道。

I think I’m…

我想我是……

I actually reduced those people down to a few concepts about the characteristics of their face, and I might be visualizing the concepts.

实际上，我将这些人简化为一些关于他们面部特征的概念，并且我可能正在将这些概念可视化。

Boy.

男生。

Interesting, right?

有趣，对吧？

2:17:41 And most people with aphantasia don’t realize they have it until they have this kind of conversation.

大多数患有失语症的人直到进行这种对话时才意识到自己患有这种疾病。

I didn’t know.

我不知道。

I don’t know if I can visualize the red apple now.

我不知道我现在是否能想象出红苹果。

2:17:47 Oh, boy.

哦，男孩。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah, because I…

是的，因为我...

The memory palace thing has never really worked for me either.

记忆宫殿的事也从来没有真正对我有用过。

I tried.

我试过。

Interesting.

有趣的。

Okay.

好的。

I have a hypothesis that people who are analytical are more likely to…

我有一个假设，具有分析能力的人更有可能……

2:17:57 I think it intersects with other things.

我认为它与其他事情有交叉。

Because a lot of my friends, it turns out, have aphantasia, and I think it’s…

因为事实证明，我的很多朋友都患有失语症，我认为这是……

There’s a version of intelligence, I think, that it might be related to, or an interest in certain kinds of concepts that it’s related to.

我认为，有一种智力可能与它相关，或者与它相关的某些概念的兴趣有关。

But I don’t know-

但我不知道——

I’m going to…

我要去……

2:18:16 Okay.

好的。

Because it’s early days of research on this.

因为这方面的研究还处于早期阶段。

All right.

好的。

2:18:18 This conversation totally is leading me to do some soul-searching on many fronts.

这次谈话完全让我在很多方面进行了自我反省。

You have done incredible work across a number of disciplines.

您在多个学科领域都做出了令人难以置信的工作。

I mean, from, from sexuality to evil to memory.

我的意思是，从性到邪恶到记忆。

And now in your upcoming book, Green Crime: Inside the Minds of the People Destroying the Planet and How to Stop Them.

现在，在您即将出版的新书《绿色犯罪：毁灭地球的人们的内心深处以及如何阻止他们》中。

Can you speak to the psychology of the people, the organizations that are killing Earth, as you describe, including illegal gold miners, animal traffickers, con men who falsify data and bribe regulators to keep polluting, and many other types of criminals?

你能谈谈人们的心理吗？正如你所描述的，那些正在毁灭地球的组织，包括非法金矿开采者、动物贩运者、伪造数据和贿赂监管机构以继续污染的骗子，以及许多其他类型的犯罪分子？

Is there a psychology similar to the psychology of some of the folks we’ve been talking about?

是否存在与我们一直在谈论的一些人的心理相似的心理？

So the book, Green Crime, is really an experiment for me in whether we can apply criminological and criminal psychology ideas to the area of environmental protection and crimes.

所以《绿色犯罪》这本书对我来说确实是一个实验，我们是否可以将犯罪学和犯罪心理学的思想应用到环境保护和犯罪领域。

2:19:01 Because there are people who are convicted of crimes, who are convicted of crimes specifically in relation to destroying the Earth and our natural resources, our shared resources.

因为有些人被判有罪，特别是与破坏地球和我们的自然资源、我们的共享资源有关的罪行。

I sometimes think about the Earth as like a house.

我有时把地球想象成一座房子。

And if someone was coming into your house and just setting things on fire and then walking out unpunished, you’d be really upset, and correctly so.

如果有人走进你的房子，放火烧东西，然后不受惩罚地走出去，你会真的很沮丧，而且确实如此。

Or poisoning your water, or just leaving a bunch of garbage all over your house.

或者毒害你的水，或者只是在你的房子里留下一堆垃圾。

And that’s what people are doing on a planetary scale.

这就是人们在全球范围内所做的事情。

And the question is, are we responding effectively?

问题是，我们是否有效应对？

And if so, who?

如果是的话，是谁？

2:19:46 Who is responding effectively?

谁在有效应对？

And then what is the adequate punishment?

那么适当的惩罚是多少呢？

How should we deal with the people we, who we catch?

我们应该如何对待我们抓到的人？

And so in this book, the question was, are the people who are…

因此，在这本书中，问题是，那些人……

For example, I use the Dieselgate Volkswagen case, which was all about lying about the emissions that were being produced by diesel cars, especially in the United States.

例如，我使用“柴油门大众”案例，该案例主要是关于柴油车产生的排放量撒谎，尤其是在美国。

And so Volkswagen, for 10 years, produced these cars that had what was called a defeat device, which is a specific device that makes it look like the cars don’t emit very much nitrous oxides, but they actually were way over the legal limit for pollution.

因此，大众汽车在 10 年来生产的这些汽车都配备了所谓的“失效装置”，这是一种特殊的装置，可以让汽车看起来不会排放太多一氧化二氮，但实际上它们的排放量远远超过了法定的污染限值。

Now, why we should care about nitrous oxides is because there is no limit of…

现在，为什么我们应该关心一氧化二氮是因为没有限制……

no, like, bottom limit of nitrous oxides that is healthy for the human lung.

没有，例如，对人肺健康有益的一氧化二氮的下限。

2:20:34 So basically any amount is bad for you.

所以基本上任何数量都对你不利。

And it’s related to things like asthma.

这与哮喘等疾病有关。

It’s related to things like premature death.

这与过早死亡等事情有关。

It’s related to all kinds of negative immediate health effects.

它与各种负面的直接健康影响有关。

And this is what was being pumped out of these cars at wildly high rates, 40 times the legal rates in some cases, and they just lied about it.

这就是从这些汽车中以极高的利率抽取的物质，在某些情况下是法定利率的 40 倍，而他们只是撒了谎。

They just covered it up.

他们只是掩盖了它。

They knew they didn’t…

他们知道他们没有……

Well, some of the people, there’s a big debate within the Volkswagen people who’ve been convicted.

嗯，有些人，被定罪的大众汽车内部存在一场大辩论。

A lot of people say, “I didn’t really know.

很多人说：“我真的不知道。

I’m being scapegoated.” Fine, people knew.

我被当作替罪羊了。”好吧，人们知道了。

The question of how much and who, that’s up for debate, but certainly people knew because they had to create the thing.

关于多少和谁的问题，这是有争议的，但人们肯定知道，因为他们必须创造这个东西。

Like, they had to literally create this piece of software to put into the cars.

就像，他们必须真正创建这个软件才能放入汽车中。

2:21:15 And then when they got caught, they lied about it, and eventually the truth came out, but it was like 10 years later.

然后当他们被抓住时，他们撒了谎，最终真相大白，但那已经是10年后的事了。

And so the question is, what leads people, clever people…

所以问题是，是什么引导人们，聪明的人......

These aren’t idiots.

这些人不是白痴。

These are like clever engineers who are literally working on emissions.

他们就像是真正致力于排放问题的聪明工程师。

Like, they know exactly what these emissions do to people.

就像，他们确切地知道这些排放对人们有什么影响。

They know exactly how harmful they are.

他们清楚地知道自己的危害有多大。

What leads people like that to lie about it, to create these things and to continue lying when they are caught?

是什么导致这样的人撒谎，创造这些东西，并在被抓住后继续撒谎？

2:21:42 And so that is one of the cases I cover in it, and I’m looking at it more as a case study for this kind of crime, which is the sort of corporate collective crime and the lying, and just what leads people in these settings to lie and to cover up each other’s crimes and to conform to these new norms, these harmful environmental norms.

这就是我在其中介绍的案例之一，我更多地将其视为此类犯罪的案例研究，这是一种企业集体犯罪和谎言，正是导致这些环境中的人们撒谎并掩盖彼此的犯罪并遵守这些新规范，这些有害的环境规范的原因。

And so I look at it in that way, and then in other chapters, I look at, like, people go undercover and uncover poaching gangs.

所以我以这种方式看待它，然后在其他章节中，我看着人们卧底并揭露偷猎团伙。

And there it’s somewhat procedural where it’s more, I didn’t know that there were undercover agents infiltrating poaching gangs.

这在某种程度上是程序性的，更重要的是，我不知道有卧底特工渗透到偷猎团伙中。

I didn’t know that Interpol was involved in all of these kinds of environmental crime and how…

我不知道国际刑警组织参与了所有这些类型的环境犯罪，也不知道如何……

2:22:27 And it gets quite exciting in some of these cases where you really see the people who are trying to hold people accountable.

在某些情况下，你确实看到有人试图让人们承担责任，这会变得非常令人兴奋。

What are the different ways to fight environmental crime that you describe?

您描述的打击环境犯罪的不同方法有哪些？

So, what I found most interesting in researching for Green Crime…

所以，我发现在研究绿色犯罪时最有趣的是……

2:22:39 So, I was speaking to people from the United Nations who are doing these huge research reports on things like the international trafficking in wildlife crime.

因此，我正在与联合国人员交谈，他们正在就国际野生动物犯罪等问题进行大量研究报告。

I was talking to people who were infiltrating at the EIA, the Environmental Investigation Agency.

我正在和渗透到 EIA（环境调查局）的人交谈。

It’s like the sort of undercover police of the Earth, and they’re infiltrating these organized crime groups, these gangs that are involved in poaching and other activities.

这就像地球上的卧底警察，他们正在渗透到这些有组织的犯罪集团、这些参与偷猎和其他活动的团伙中。

I was talking to this Interpol agent, and it’s…

我正在和这位国际刑警组织特工交谈，这是……

I think all of these people were talking about very different ways of measuring environmental crime and of responding to it.

我认为所有这些人都在谈论衡量环境犯罪和应对环境犯罪的非常不同的方法。

And so depending on who you talk to, the answer will be very different: how do we fight crime?

因此，根据你与谁交谈，答案会非常不同：我们如何打击犯罪？

2:23:29 And the answer is also very different potentially than in other kinds of crime that are more commonly discussed, like violent crime.

答案也可能与更常讨论的其他类型的犯罪（例如暴力犯罪）有很大不同。

So initially, when I started trying to apply criminal psychology to these really big crimes that are often also multi-level, where you’ve got bosses, you’ve got this, whether it’s a corporate boss or an illegal gang boss.

所以最初，当我开始尝试将犯罪心理学应用于这些真正的大型犯罪时，这些犯罪通常也是多层次的，有老板，有这个，无论是公司老板还是非法帮派老板。

You’ve got the middlemen.

你有中间人。

You’ve got the people on the ground who actually have the guns who are killing people or animals or are logging or polluting.

当地的人们实际上拥有枪支，他们正在杀害人或动物，或者正在伐木或污染。

2:23:56 And then you’ve got sort of all these levels of people, and that makes it very different from the kinds of crimes that we often talk about in other kinds of true crime, for example, where it’s sort of one person, maybe a couple of people against one other person or a couple of other people.

然后你就有了所有这些级别的人，这使得它与我们经常谈论的其他类型的真实犯罪中的犯罪类型非常不同，例如，一个人，也许是几个人针对另一个人或几个其他人。

And so the scale is so tiny normally, and it’s mostly violent crime, which is mostly…

所以通常情况下规模很小，而且主要是暴力犯罪，主要是……

It’s arguments.

这是争论。

It’s bad decisions.

这是错误的决定。

It’s people who are frankly often quite vulnerable themselves, like substance using, people with mental health problems, people who are sleeping rough.

坦白说，这些人本身就很脆弱，比如吸毒者、有心理健康问题的人、露宿街头的人。

Like, th- these are not healthy, normal people most of the time who are perpetrating bad crimes.

就像，这些人大多数时候都不是健康的、正常的人，他们都在犯下严重的罪行。

2:24:31 And yet in this context, in environmental crime, this is where I couldn’t apply the research directly, you’ve got some of the smartest people in the world who are still engaging in fraud, who are engaging in the cover-up of financial information, who are creating shell companies in order to hide certain things for poaching, the proceeds of poaching.

然而在这种情况下，在环境犯罪中，这是我无法直接应用研究的地方，世界上一些最聪明的人仍在从事欺诈，他们正在掩盖财务信息，他们正在创建空壳公司，以隐藏某些偷猎的东西，偷猎的收益。

2:24:49 You’ve got people who are out there illegally fishing, and someone’s insuring the vessel that has been literally registered by Interpol as a criminal vessel for 10 years, and someone’s going, “I’ll insure that.” So you’ve got these really complicated other factors going on, but I thought that’s what was so interesting is ultimately stripping back each layer of each of these crimes and going, “Who is that person?” Who is the person who’s insuring this?

有人在那里非法捕鱼，有人为这艘被国际刑警组织登记为犯罪船只长达 10 年的船只投保，有人说，“我会投保。”所以你已经遇到了这些非常复杂的其他因素，但我认为最有趣的是最终剥离这些犯罪的每一层并继续，“那个人是谁？”谁是为此提供保险的人？

Who is the person who is out there engaging in illegal fishing on the boat?

在船上进行非法捕鱼的人是谁？

Who is the person who’s financing the boat?

为这艘船提供资金的人是谁？

Who is the person who’s investigating them, right?

调查他们的人是谁，对吗？

And so looking at all the different levels, and I think that’s where you get some clarity.

因此，看看所有不同的层面，我认为这就是你得到一些清晰的地方。

And actually, at the end of the book, for me, I felt so optimistic.

事实上，在书的最后，对我来说，我感到非常乐观。

2:25:35 I went into Green Crime because I, like most people in the world, at least according to a recent UN climate survey…

我参与绿色犯罪是因为我和世界上大多数人一样，至少根据最近的联合国气候调查……

Something like 85 to 90% of people in the world think about the climate crisis on a regular basis.

世界上大约 85% 到 90% 的人定期思考气候危机。

Most people think about it every single day.

大多数人每天都会思考这个问题。

So this idea that there’s this minority of people who care about climate change, that’s an illusion.

因此，认为只有少数人关心气候变化的想法是一种幻觉。

That’s not true.

那不是真的。

And if you ask people what the emotional consequences are of those feelings, people say things like eco-anxiety, anger, sadness, grief, that we’re, you know, we’re worried about the future.

如果你问人们这些感受的情感后果是什么，人们会说生态焦虑、愤怒、悲伤、悲伤，我们，你知道，我们担心未来。

But what you want is for people to feel motivated, energized, purposeful about tackling one of the biggest issues of our time.

但你想要的是让人们感到有动力、有活力、有目标去解决我们这个时代最大的问题之一。

2:26:13 And certainly by meeting all of these UN researchers, but I went to so many conferences.

当然是通过会见所有这些联合国研究人员，但我参加了很多会议。

You have no idea how many conferences I went to.

你不知道我参加了多少次会议。

I went to anti-corruption conferences.

我参加了反腐败会议。

I went to wildlife crime conferences.

我参加了野生动物犯罪会议。

I went to the specific meeting of multilateral agreements to see how people were negotiating in the room and the tensions between…

我去参加了多边协议的具体会议，看看人们在房间里是如何谈判的，以及……之间的紧张关系。

It was wild.

很狂野。

It’s so interesting.

太有趣了。

It’s such a huge space, and it gave me so much hope for the future.

这是一个如此巨大的空间，它给了我对未来如此多的希望。

And actually, the way you frame it very clearly is a crime against Earth.

事实上，你非常清楚地描述它的方式是对地球的犯罪。

2:26:40 Somehow that’s more actionable and it’s less controversial and divisive because climate change, as a topic, has become a political issue.

不知何故，这更具可操作性，也更少争议和分歧，因为气候变化作为一个话题，已经成为一个政治问题。

Where it’s like, is it really happening?

它到底在哪里，真的发生了吗？

What’s the right policies?

什么是正确的政策？

It’s nice to look at actual obvious criminals.

很高兴看到真正明显的罪犯。

Yeah, where no one’s debating, “Did someone just burn down this rainforest?” It’s like, well, we can see it.

是的，没有人争论“有人刚刚烧毁了这片雨林吗？”就像，好吧，我们可以看到它。

2:27:08 I was at a European Space Agency conference recently, and they’re telling us all about the different satellites that are imaging, sort of pointing at the Earth rather than out into space, and that are imaging through all these different wavelengths exactly what’s changing.

我最近参加了欧洲航天局的一次会议，他们向我们介绍了正在成像的不同卫星，它们有点指向地球而不是太空，并且通过所有这些不同的波长来成像到底发生了什么变化。

And they’re basically just chronicling how the Earth has changed over time.

他们基本上只是记录地球如何随着时间的推移而变化。

And a lot of these environmental crimes can be seen from space and can be measured.

许多环境犯罪都可以从太空中看到并且可以测量。

So it’s, as long as you trust those data, the question then is, okay, so these crimes are happening.

所以，只要你相信这些数据，那么问题就是，好吧，所以这些犯罪正在发生。

How do we stop them?

我们如何阻止他们？

And as you say, I was very much trying…

正如你所说，我非常努力……

2:27:43 I mean, you can’t write a book on environmental issues and be apolitical.

我的意思是，你不可能写一本关于环境问题的书而不关心政治。

I think that’s impossible.

我认为这是不可能的。

But I certainly was trying to look at it quite logically and go, “Here’s a crime.

但我确实试图从逻辑上看待它，然后说：“这是犯罪行为。

We all agree this is bad.” And these are people who have been convicted.

我们都同意这很糟糕。”这些都是被定罪的人。

This isn’t just someone who didn’t do their recycling, because also I think that individual level is often detrimental.

这不仅仅是那些没有进行回收的人，因为我也认为个人水平往往是有害的。

But these are huge, huge crimes that cost us a huge amount of money to clean up and that cost a huge amount of human health and, you know, have these other knock-on effects and are changing, certainly, the structure of our planet in a way that we can feel already.

但这些都是巨大的犯罪行为，花费了我们大量的资金来清理，并造成了大量的人类健康损失，而且你知道，它们还产生了其他连锁反应，并且正在以一种我们已经能感觉到的方式改变我们星球的结构。

So that is the purpose of the book is to try and show that we actually have lots of laws already.

所以这本书的目的是试图表明我们实际上已经有了很多法律。

We’ve got lots of enforcers.

我们有很多执行者。

2:28:25 We’ve got lots of researchers on it from space and not space looking at these issues, tracking them, and trying to hunt down the criminals.

我们有很多来自太空而非太空的研究人员来研究这些问题，追踪它们，并试图追捕罪犯。

So what can you say about how people end up doing bad stuff in a company when there’s a lot of them?

那么，当公司里有很多人时，人们最终会做出坏事，你能说什么呢？

2:28:32 Are they bad people?

他们是坏人吗？

How do you get to that place where you, in a large collective, are doing something really bad?

你是如何到达这样的境地：在一个大集体中，你正在做一些非常糟糕的事情？

So, the psychology of environmental crime I find often boils down to the same kinds of things that we have already been talking about in the context of, quote, unquote, “evil,” where it’s things like conformity.

因此，我发现环境犯罪的心理通常可以归结为我们已经在“邪恶”的背景下讨论过的相同类型的事情，其中​​包括一致性之类的事情。

2:28:48 So, doing what you think everyone else is doing, or know what everyone else is doing.

因此，做你认为其他人在做的事情，或者知道其他人在做什么。

So there’s an industry where you know that lots of people are cheating or are fudging the facts in some way.

因此，在某个行业中，您知道很多人都在作弊或以某种方式捏造事实。

Then you both feel the need and also maybe rationalize the ability to also deceive because it’s market forces, right?

然后你们都觉得有必要，也可能合理化欺骗的能力，因为这是市场力量，对吗？

Ultimately, in a free market or even a controlled one, you’ve got these people who are just lying to everybody else.

最终，在自由市场甚至受控市场中，这些人只是对其他人撒谎。

And they’re saying, “We’re getting to these X outcome by following the rules that everyone else is.” And they’re not.

他们说，“我们通过遵循其他人的规则来实现这些 X 结果。”但事实并非如此。

They’re just lying to consumers.

他们只是在对消费者撒谎。

2:29:32 They’re lying to the regulators.

他们向监管机构撒谎。

They’re just lying.

他们只是在撒谎。

And then other people who are trying to be honest and, you know, play the game clean, they see the success of this other company and go, “Well, we want to have what they have.” And then they realize they can’t, with the tech that exists, get there.

然后，其他试图诚实行事的人，你知道，干净地玩游戏，他们看到另一家公司的成功，然后说：“好吧，我们想要拥有他们拥有的东西。”然后他们意识到，凭借现有的技术，他们无法实现这一目标。

And so what do they then realize is, “Well, they must be cheating.” And so then they start cheating, and so it has this trickle effect of making everyone else fall in line with these, well, unethical practices that are unethical on so many levels.

然后他们意识到，“好吧，他们一定是在作弊。”然后他们就开始作弊，这会产生一种涓滴效应，让其他人都遵守这些不道德的做法，这些做法在很多层面上都是不道德的。

And then later, you get these huge lawsuits because if you get caught, then everyone’s upset.

然后，你会收到这些巨大的诉讼，因为如果你被抓住，那么每个人都会感到不安。

The investors are upset.

投资者很沮丧。

The consumers are upset.

消费者很不安。

The environmentalists, the lawyer, everybody’s upset with you because you have committed this huge crime.

环保主义者、律师，每个人都对你感到不满，因为你犯下了这一巨大的罪行。

Yeah, I mean, you ex- you explain so many forces there, but even the simple force of social pressure- …like very slight social pressure.

是的，我的意思是，你前-你解释了很多力量，但即使是简单的社会压力力量-......就像非常轻微的社会压力。

2:30:15 I was just watching this documentary.

我刚刚在看这部纪录片。

It’s based on a book, “Ordinary Men,” talking about the Germans in Nazi Germany that were taking part in the execution squads in Eastern Europe and that they were given the option not to do it, and ultimately, most people decided to keep being part of the execution squad, even though they had no hatred in their heart, seemingly whatsoever.

改编自《普通人》一书，讲述了纳粹德国的德国人在东欧参加行刑队，他们可以选择不参加，最终大多数人决定继续成为行刑队的一员，尽管他们心里似乎没有任何仇恨。

2:30:54 It’s just slight social pressure.

这只是轻微的社会压力。

You don’t want to be the guy that kind of chickens out.

你不想成为那种胆怯的人。

Just a little bit of social pressure, and you are able to very quickly dehumanize a large number of people and to murder them without any hate in your heart, without anything that could trivially, directly be identified as, quote, unquote, “evil.” Just normal people doing very bad things.

只需一点点社会压力，你就能很快地使大量的人失去人性并谋杀他们，心里没有任何仇恨，没有任何可以简单地直接被识别为，引用或不引用，“邪恶”的东西。只是普通人做着非常坏的事情。

And you can be an emissions engineer with a kid with asthma and an old grandma who’s struggling with her health and still feel like, “Yeah, I know that I’m creating these dirty cars, and yet I’m going to do it anyway,” because as you say, there’s the conformity, the social pressure, the rationalization, and those are all very human experiences.

你可以是一名排放工程师，带着一个患有哮喘的孩子和一位与健康作斗争的老奶奶，但她仍然觉得，“是的，我知道我正在制造这些肮脏的汽车，但我无论如何都会这样做，”因为正如你所说，存在着顺从、社会压力、合理化，而这些都是非常人性化的经历。

2:31:20 And that’s why also in the book I always focus on…

这就是为什么在书中我总是关注……

whistleblower is a big word, but like people who at some point actually helped to uncover what was going on.

举报人是一个很大的词，但就像在某个时候真正帮助揭露正在发生的事情的人一样。

And that if we’re back to the topic of heroes, we’re back to bystander effects.

如果我们回到英雄的话题，我们就会回到旁观者效应。

2:31:54 We’re back to all of the social psychology and criminal psychology that we’ve been talking about this whole time, which is why I thought it was so important to apply that research to this context and to say, “Okay, so now we’ve got these people who are willing to engage in these crimes.

我们回到了我们一直在谈论的所有社会心理学和犯罪心理学，这就是为什么我认为将这项研究应用于这种背景是如此重要，并说：“好吧，现在我们有了这些愿意参与这些犯罪的人。

They know it.” But there’s also this moment of how do you get out of it, and who is going to stop them?

他们知道这一点。”但还有一个问题是你如何摆脱困境，谁来阻止他们？

And back to the idea of heroes, and you do usually in these cases at some point have a hero, either an external one or an internal one who goes, “This needs to stop.”

回到英雄的概念，在这些情况下，你通常会在某个时候有一个英雄，无论是外部的还是内部的，他会说：“这需要停止。”

Do you have empathy for those criminals?

你对这些罪犯有同情心吗？

I have empathy for everybody.

我对每个人都有同理心。

Has that ever been in your life challenged, like where you had trouble empathizing?

您的生活中是否曾遇到过这样的挑战，例如您难以共情？

Ooh.

哦。

2:32:35 There is one context, so there is one context that I…

有一种背景，所以我……也有一种背景。

I don’t know if it’s that I have trouble empathizing…

不知道是不是我的共情能力有问题……

I think it is I have trouble empathizing, and I just think it is…

我认为这是我无法共情，我只是认为这是......

I don’t want to.

我不想。

And I don’t know why this is the one thing, but I remember writing “Evil” and I got to the section on sexual slavery.

我不知道为什么这是一件事，但我记得写“邪恶”时，我进入了有关性奴役的部分。

There was something about that very specific issue of having women, in particular, in a confined area where you have often trafficked them, and then you’re forcing them to engage in repeated sexual acts that the person who is running that—

有一个非常具体的问题，那就是让女性，特别是在一个你经常贩运她们的封闭区域，然后你强迫她们进行重复的性行为，而那个人——

It’s tough for you.

这对你来说很难。

I can’t.

我不能。

2:33:22 That’s like, I know that.

就好像，我知道这一点。

I’m not saying that that’s the worst kind of crime.

我并不是说这是最严重的犯罪。

I don’t think it necessarily is.

我认为不一定是这样。

I just think from my mind, there was just a, “You can’t go there.” That’s…

我只是觉得，在我的脑海里，只有一个，“你不能去那里。”那是……

I don’t know how to empathize with that person.

我不知道如何去同情那个人。

Yeah, I probably have a bunch of categories of people.

是的，我可能有很多类别的人。

2:33:36 Stuff with kids is just like— …

和孩子们在一起的事情就像——……

it’s tough.

这很难。

It’s tough.

它太硬。

It’s tough.

它太硬。

What gives you hope about this beautiful world of ours, about the future of human civilization, given all the darkness that you have studied?

鉴于你所研究的所有黑暗，是什么让你对我们这个美丽的世界、对人类文明的未来充满希望？

I think the fact that there are people who study the darkness gives me hope, and that there are people who want to understand why we do bad things, myself included, but I mostly get to benefit from other people’s research that I summarize into my books.

我认为有人研究黑暗给了我希望，有人想理解为什么我们做坏事，包括我自己，但我主要受益于我总结在书中的其他人的研究。

2:33:57 I think that the tech that we are now experiencing mostly also gives me hope, in that there is this whole new frontier of capacity to implement scientific findings if we want to do so and choose to do so.

我认为我们现在所经历的技术也给了我希望，因为如果我们愿意并选择这样做，就有了实现科学发现的全新能力前沿。

Even in memory interviewing, we were talking about the potential role of AI in distorting our memories.

即使在记忆访谈中，我们也在谈论人工智能在扭曲我们记忆方面的潜在作用。

2:34:38 When I do corporate talks, I tell people the prompt that I use to use the cognitive interview, which is the best practices in memory interviewing, because you can also tell AI tools to do the appropriate kind of interviewing if you’re talking about memory things.

当我进行企业演讲时，我会告诉人们我使用认知面试的提示，这是记忆面试的最佳实践，因为如果你谈论记忆问题，你也可以告诉人工智能工具进行适当的面试。

I created a company called Spot in 2017, which uses…

我在 2017 年创建了一家名为 Spot 的公司，它使用……

Well, we’re now building it out to be AI, but it’s basically a tool to record important emotional memories and to share them as information with others.

好吧，我们现在正在将其构建为人工智能，但它基本上是一种记录重要情感记忆并将其作为信息与他人分享的工具。

So I’ve always been interested in how tech can help us to record important emotional events, like with Spot, Talk to Spot, and how technology can actually make us feel more human.

因此，我一直对科技如何帮助我们记录重要的情感事件感兴趣，比如使用 Spot、Talk to Spot，以及科技如何让我们感觉更加人性化。

2:35:20 So there are these capacities like memory that we’re bad at, and tech can help us to overcome some of those shortcomings, as long as we use it in a science-backed way rather than just sort of freestyling.

因此，我们不擅长记忆等能力，只要我们以科学支持的方式而不是随心所欲地使用它，科技就可以帮助我们克服其中一些缺点。

I think the worry I have sometimes is that, as I’ve said before, we’re ignoring the social scientists entirely sometimes when building these systems.

我认为我有时担心的是，正如我之前所说，我们在构建这些系统时有时完全忽视了社会科学家。

It ends up becoming this engineering math problem, when that’s not actually, in terms of the consequences for humanity, what it’s going to be.

它最终变成了这个工程数学问题，而实际上，就对人类的后果而言，它并不是什么。

So I’m always keen on connecting social sciences and big issues.

所以我总是热衷于将社会科学和重大问题联系起来。

Can you speak more to Spot?

你能和 Spot 说更多吗？

2:35:52 This sounds fascinating.

这听起来很有趣。

So what’s entailed in recording important memories?

那么记录重要记忆需要什么？

So Spot came out of my going around the world and giving everyone an existential crisis.

所以 Spot 是我环游世界并给每个人带来生存危机的结果。

2:36:02 I’d go around, and like with you, I’d say, “Look, our memory is really faulty, and here’s all the ways it can lie to us.” And people would go, “Oh, no.” And then I’d go, “Bye.” And—

我会四处走动，就像对你一样，我会说：“看，我们的记忆真的有问题，这就是它可以欺骗我们的所有方式。”人们会说：“哦，不。”然后我就说：“再见。”还有——

That’s funny.

这很有趣。

At some point, I was like, “Maybe I should do something about this.” And so I did.

在某些时候，我想，“也许我应该为此做点什么。”我也这么做了。

2:36:22 I went to a…

我去了一个…

Well, I did a TED Talk, and I was invited to this tech conference called Founders Forum, which is this meeting of tech founders and others in London, but also a couple of other places.

嗯，我做了一次 TED 演讲，我被邀请参加这个名为创始人论坛的技术会议，这是技术创始人和其他人在伦敦以及其他几个地方举行的会议。

I was invited to this, and while there, I met the founder of Evernote— Phil Libin.

我受邀参加了这次活动，并在那里认识了 Evernote 的创始人 Phil Libin。

2:36:49 So I met Phil Libin at this event, and I was talking to him about my research on memory and how I’ve been wanting to implement or translate what I’ve been doing into something that could prevent false memories.

所以我在这次活动中遇到了菲尔·利宾（Phil Libin），我和他谈论了我对记忆的研究，以及我如何想要将我一直在做的事情实施或转化为可以防止错误记忆的东西。

Specifically, I was interested in creating an AI or at least a machine-administered version of the cognitive interview.

具体来说，我对创建人工智能或至少是机器管理的认知访谈版本感兴趣。

So that’s the neutral approach.

这就是中立的方法。

It’s already a scripted approach, which was helpful.

这已经是一种脚本化的方法，很有帮助。

So it’s been scripted for decades, or a couple of decades.

所以它的剧本已经写了几十年，或者几十年了。

It’s been scripted for decades as a cognitive interview.

几十年来，它一直被视为认知访谈。

When we train police on how to do it in places like the UK, it’s literally just asking people to basically read a script that we have fine-tuned over the years.

当我们在英国等地培训警察如何做到这一点时，实际上只是要求人们基本上阅读我们多年来微调的脚本。

What can do that really well?

什么才能真正做到这一点？

Chatbots can do that really well.

聊天机器人可以很好地做到这一点。

2:37:34 Together with Phil Libin and my two co-founders, Dillon and Daniel, I ended up co-founding Spot, which is talktospot.com if you want to check it out.

我最终与 Phil Libin 和我的两位联合创始人 Dillon 和 Daniel 共同创立了 Spot，如果你想查看的话，它就是 talktospot.com。

It ended up pivoting into this general reporting tool for workplaces.

它最终转向了这种适用于工作场所的通用报告工具。

This was before Me Too, but the idea being that in lots of workplace environments, you have important emotional events that are really important to understand, but are really hard to preserve.

这是在 Me Too 之前发生的，但这个想法是，在许多工作环境中，你会有重要的情感事件，这些事件确实很重要，但很难保存。

Often you have really bad evidence that you’re relying on.

通常你所依赖的证据非常糟糕。

Someone at some point goes to HR and says something, and somebody else says something else, and you’re unsure as a company who to trust, what’s real.

有时有人去找人力资源部说了些什么，而其他人又说了些什么，作为一家公司，你不确定该相信谁，什么是真实的。

So we were trying to streamline that.

所以我们试图简化这一过程。

2:38:15 Spot is now a reporting tool for any kind of compliance issues.

Spot 现在是针对任何类型合规性问题的报告工具。

You can talk to Spot, it’s called, and it is this chatbot interface that administers the cognitive interview and then creates a report that then gets sent, if you want, to your employer.

你可以与 Spot 交谈，它的名字是这个聊天机器人界面，它可以管理认知面试，然后创建一份报告，如果你愿意的话，可以将其发送给你的雇主。

So we work with, like, insurance companies, medical companies.

所以我们与保险公司、医疗公司等合作。

We work with the bar.

我们与酒吧合作。

All the lawyers in the UK use it themselves, which I always think is a real stamp of approval when the Bar Council is using your tool.

英国所有的律师都自己使用它，我一直认为，当律师协会使用你的工具时，这是真正的认可标志。

But again, not, not bars and drinks.

但再说一次，不是，不是酒吧和饮料。

Bars and lawyers.

酒吧和律师。

But…

但是……

Thank you for clarifying.

谢谢你的澄清。

Just picturing all these like…

只是想象所有这些就像......

2:38:46 …People with flair throwing vodka bottles in the air.

……有天赋的人把伏特加酒瓶扔到空中。

Not them.

不是他们。

They’re great too, but yeah.

他们也很棒，但是是的。

They could also use it, potentially.

他们也可能会使用它。

2:38:54 But we’ve got people reporting like, you know, someone left bleach in a machine.

但有人报告说，你知道，有人把漂白剂留在了机器里。

So it’s like a more small memory.

所以它就像一个更小的记忆。

So it’s streamlining reporting processes.

因此，它正在简化报告流程。

I mean, can you envision something like Spot being used for recording generally important emotional events, positive and negative throughout your life?

我的意思是，你能想象像 Spot 这样的东西被用来记录你一生中普遍重要的情感事件，无论是积极的还是消极的吗？

2:39:05 That seems like something the LLMs of today would really benefit from.

这似乎是当今法学硕士真正受益的事情。

Yeah, again, that’s why…

是的，再说一遍，这就是为什么……

Just so you’re not just strictly looking at like compliance or in the context of companies?

只是为了让您不只是严格地考虑合规性或公司的背景？

So in the context of Spot, yes, it’s just compliance and it’s, it’s that.

所以在 Spot 的背景下，是的，这只是合规性，就是这样。

2:39:26 But I think in sort of private life and in terms of where I think this could go, I- I’m, I’m interested in all memories, and I think that important life events can be recorded.

但我认为在私人生活中以及我认为这可能会走向何方，我-我，我对所有记忆都很感兴趣，而且我认为重要的生活事件可以被记录下来。

And I think the idea of having like grief bots and having things that have a representation of you or your loved ones, I think that’s something that I’d like seeing in the future.

我认为拥有悲伤机器人和代表你或你所爱之人的东西的想法，我认为这是我未来希望看到的事情。

I would.

我会的。

Have you gotten a chance to work with maybe the Gemini team or OpenAI folks, or any of them?

您是否有机会与 Gemini 团队或 OpenAI 人员或其中任何人一起工作？

2:39:51 Anthropic?

人择？

Because it seems like they don’t have enough people that think about this.

因为他们似乎没有足够的人来思考这个问题。

Well, I’m, I’m just waiting for an email.

好吧，我，我只是在等一封电子邮件。

Okay.

好的。

2:40:04 Wow.

哇。

Maybe I’ll get one after this.

也许此后我会得到一个。

I’m hanging.

我挂了。

Hit me up, guys.

打我吧，伙计们。

Yeah, I’m hanging out with DeepMind folks.

是的，我正在和 DeepMind 的人一起出去玩。

2:40:09 That would be really, that’d be really fascinating to, to see.

那真的会非常令人着迷。

First of all, the, the proper cognitive interview, that’s really interesting.

首先，正确的认知访谈，这真的很有趣。

That’s really interesting how to not lead, how to not to plant false memories.

如何不去引导，如何不植入错误的记忆，这真的很有趣。

I don’t think any of them are thinking about that.

我认为他们中没有人考虑过这一点。

I don’t think so either.

我也不这么认为。

2:40:25 And then how to make sure that you’re using that to help people to store contemporaneous evidence outside of their brain.

然后如何确保你使用它来帮助人们将同期证据存储在大脑之外。

I just think there’s so much potential that’s being wasted right now.

我只是认为现在有太多的潜力被浪费了。

Yeah.

是的。

2:40:35 So the hope is that technology and that there’s people being willing to empathize with all different flavors of the human condition, that’s your source of hope for the future?

所以希望技术和人们愿意同情人类状况的所有不同方面，这是你对未来希望的源泉？

And to celebrate all the people who are doing amazing research and really cracking down on things like environmental crime and like spending their lives to fight specific kinds of crime.

并庆祝所有正在进行令人惊叹的研究并真正打击环境犯罪以及愿意花费一生来打击特定类型犯罪的人们。

Yeah, I like this Earth.

是的，我喜欢这个地球。

2:40:58 I hope, I hope we fight for it.

我希望，我希望我们为之奋斗。

It’s the only one we got, and I’m pretty hesitant to say that maybe in this galaxy, we might be the only ones.

这是我们唯一拥有的，我很犹豫地说也许在这个银河系中，我们可能是唯一的。

So let’s, let’s protect it.

所以，让我们一起保护它吧。

Well what’s your name again?

那么你叫什么名字？

Just kidding.

只是在开玩笑。

Julia, this is a huge honor.

朱莉娅，这是一个巨大的荣誉。

Um, I’ve been a fan of yours for a long time.

嗯，我已经是你的粉丝很长时间了。

I’m really glad we got a chance to talk.

我真的很高兴我们有机会交谈。

This was really fascinating.

这真的很令人着迷。

Your work is fascinating, and you’re just a fascinating human being, so thank you.

你的工作很有趣，而且你也是一个很有趣的人，所以谢谢你。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Thanks for listening to this conversation with Julia Shaw.

感谢您收听与朱莉娅·肖的对话。

2:41:29 To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description, where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on.

为了支持这个播客，请在描述中查看我们的赞助商，您还可以在其中找到联系我、提出问题、提供反馈等的链接。

And now, let me leave you with some words from T.S.

现在，让我向您传达 T.S. 的一些话。

Eliot, “Most of the evil in the world is done by people with good intentions.” Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.

艾略特说：“世界上大多数邪恶都是由善意的人所为。”感谢您的收听，希望下次再见。