奥利弗·安东尼：乡村音乐、美国蓝领、成名、金钱与痛苦
Oliver Anthony: Country Music, Blue-Collar America, Fame, Money, and Pain
草根歌手讲述一夜爆红后的生活变化，蓝领美国的真实处境，以及金钱与痛苦如何写进他的歌。
2023 年 8 月 8 日，Oliver Anthony 把一首歌传上了 YouTube。视频是在弗吉尼亚自家农场的车棚里拍的，蝉在叫，狗在晃，他抱着一把共鸣吉他，没有伴奏。上传那天他还在上班。两周后，这首歌登上 Billboard Hot 100 榜首，全美电台滚动播放。
歌名叫《Rich Men North of Richmond》。词是他自己写的，因为他过去八年就在工地上跑，每天跟承包商、焊工、管道工说话。歌里的愤怒非常具体：加班到死挣不到能活命的钱，税被华盛顿拿走，别人的孩子饿着肚子，福利却在养一批不愿意干活的人。
爆红之后的剧情更值得看。唱片公司找上门来，最高报价 800 万美元。他在社交媒体上写了这么一段：
音乐行业的人听说我拒掉 800 万的报价时，只会给我一个空白的眼神。我不想要六辆巡演大巴、十五辆拖车和一架私人飞机。我不想要体育场级别的演出。我不想要聚光灯。我写这些歌，是因为我自己在跟心理健康、跟抑郁搏斗。这些歌之所以能唱进几百万人心里，是因为唱歌的人在当时那一刻真的在感受那些字。没有修音，没有经纪人，没有废话。只有一个人，一把吉他。（Oliver Anthony）
合同全推了。这件事放到任何一个关于成名的故事里都算罕见。但真正让 Lex 愿意坐下来跟他聊两个多小时的，是这个决定背后那套对世界的看法。为什么一个人能写出让左右两派同时点头的歌？他为什么会觉得自己真的帮到了一批人？他对“机器”这个词，又为什么有那么强的警觉？
一首从工地车棚传出去的歌
Anthony 的工作叫工业设备销售，听着体面，实际上一整天都在工地拖车里跟不同的人说话。八年下来，他每天要见二十来个人，大部分是蓝领。这些人不会对着镜头讲话，但他们会在没有外人的时候把真实的想法一股脑倒出来：上面怎么折腾，家里那口子怎么走人，儿子查出了什么病。Anthony 说，他的歌都来自这种对话。
《Rich Men North of Richmond》也一样。副歌和第一段主歌他早就写了，只有那么几句，一直搁在手机里。2023 年 7 月，他把这段断章拍成短视频发到 TikTok，底下有人留言说“你该把这首写完，可能会火”。三周后，他真的把完整版写了出来，重新上传。
上传那天他在上班。没过几小时，播放量开始往上蹿。第二天、第三天，全国的电台都在放这首歌。他在节目里描述自己当时的反应，讲得很实在：他没觉得这是天选之作，反而有点不安。他更在意的问题是，为什么这么多人会同时被这首歌击中？答案他心里清楚，这些人被击中的是自己的处境，歌只是个出口。
顺带说一句他的名字。他的法定名字是 Christopher Anthony Lunsford，Oliver Anthony 是他爷爷的名字。他爷爷生在 1930 年代 Appalachia 山区，泥地当地板，七个孩子，日子难过。他用这个名字发歌，是给爷爷，也是给那个年代。他现在的经纪人、合作方都叫他 Chris，他也不介意别人叫哪个。
拒掉那 800 万，外人的解读常常是英雄主义。他自己讲得更朴素。他说当时“本来也没什么可失去的”，房子、农场、老婆孩子，这些他早就有，一笔横财不会让它们变得更重要。他真正怕的是失去那些给他发私信的人的信任。那些私信常常以同一句话开头：
嗨，我是个无足轻重的人。（Oliver Anthony）
这句话最让他难受。写下这句话的人，每天在矿井里、在天桥上、在下水道里干着支撑整个社会运转的活，却觉得自己在别人眼里什么都不是。而一些除了会摆姿势什么都不会的人，被摆在聚光灯下当成国王和王后。
HR 思维已经接管了我们的大脑
访谈里有一段关于“礼貌”的讨论，值得停下来慢慢想。
Anthony 说他上一份工作最折磨人的是氛围。他跟一群同事每天花半天时间吐槽上面的人有多蠢，吐槽完继续干活。这些人并不懒，他们只是在那种结构里已经放弃“真正把事做成”这件事。人是来占一个岗位的，按合同履行角色，别把棱角带进来，别惹 HR 那位女士不高兴。于是所有人开始“beep boop”，活得像个机器人。
他把这种状态往上追了一层：美国今天几乎所有的东西都被大公司拥有和管理，食品、农业、医疗、社交媒体，全是公司结构。整个社会正在变成一个巨型公司，而公司 HR 那套逻辑慢慢渗透进了每个人的思维方式。人是雇员，情绪是风险，真实是不专业的。
Lex 接过话头，说了苏联。外表礼貌、秩序井然、文件齐备，下面藏着切尔诺贝利。官僚系统需要这种体面的语言才能运转，暴行也正好可以在这种体面下发生。他引用 Tom Waits 一句歌词：
我喜欢我的小镇里掺一点毒。（Lex Fridman）
一个系统如果完全不含一点粗鲁、愤怒、脏话，它就失去了自我修正的能力。所有的不舒服都被压到水面以下，最后积攒成一场谁也预料不到的大爆发。Anthony 同意这个观察。他说，互联网上那种互相攻击、互相撕咬，本身是好事，它至少说明还有人在乎。问题在于它应该发生在现实里，发生在咖啡馆、酒吧、教堂、球场，发生在大家知道对方是谁、下次还会再见面的场合。
他还顺手做了一个非常漂亮的对照。他有个朋友在给他拍纪录片，之前给波音做过宣传片。这个朋友说，波音内部的文化就是“轻轻碰，别碰重”，用完的东西放回原位，说的话要四平八稳，流程比结果重要。SpaceX 完全相反，一群工程师天天在赌命，争得脸红脖子粗，做出来的东西飞上了天。
Anthony 用的比喻是龙卷风。他需要一个“龙卷风式的人物”冲进任何一个已经僵化的系统，把该砸的砸开，把该骂的骂出来，然后另外一群擅长修补的人跑进来收拾残局。波音缺的就是那个龙卷风。
人群本身就是谎言
中间有一段，Lex 讲起 Anthony 之前跟 Jordan Peterson 的那次对谈。话题本来是聊现场演出，Peterson 忽然拐到克尔凯郭尔，说“人群是不真实的”（the crowd is untruth）。一个人只要进入人群，判断力就被稀释了，他不再用自己的眼睛看世界，改成用人群的眼睛看。所以当歌手站在台上对“人群”讲话，他其实是在对一群被叙事驱动的幽灵讲话。
Anthony 说，这一点在他身上比在大多数歌手身上更明显。
2024 年他巡演的时候，台下观众的密度和强度接近“革命现场”。他后来特别后悔没让人把那些场面拍下来。他说那些观众是来听歌的，更是在找一种别的地方找不到的东西。他们要从那个场地里带走一点力量，回到自己每天面对的世界里去。
他每场演出结束都会说一段话：不管刷完手机之后你觉得自己多小、多无力、多不重要，看看那些数据、新闻、民调，记住一件事，我们永远比他们多。每次说到这句，他都能看到台下人眼里亮起来的一瞬间。
但他在节目里也承认，这句话本身有点悬。谁是“我们”，谁是“他们”？“我们”是所有还愿意用肉身活着的人，是有火、有混乱、也有爱和生命的那部分人。“他们”是那套权力结构，是每个人身上那个想把别人踩下去的部分，是当年造出苏联的那种东西。它现在不局限在一个国家里，它像一种全球性的流行病。
这就是他不太愿意承认“我在谈政治”的原因。外面的人都觉得他在谈政治，他其实想谈的是人怎么在系统里还能保留自己。他不觉得自己聪明到能解决这些问题，他只是在唱他看到的。
完美空气工厂里的人
聊到美国蓝领的时候，Anthony 讲了他职业生涯里最疯的一段经历。
他在北卡罗来纳州马里昂一家叫 Perfect Air 的商用空调厂干过一阵，18 岁，身边全是五六十岁的人。这家厂工资低，招来的要么是有案底、别处不要的人，要么是像他这样高中辍学、没别处可去的人。他说那些人比电视上大部分名人有趣多了。
他举了个例子。他流水线旁边有个叫 Denise 的女工，她和丈夫在造冰毒，丈夫顶了大部分罪，关进监狱，她被判缓刑。Anthony 说她人特别好，除了那件事，简直是个模范居民。
他还讲过一个在 Lowe's 全职上班的人。那人有块地想卖给他，因为他儿子 19 岁，要做心脏手术，需要现金。这个人每天在 Lowe's 搬木材，所有路过的人只会把他看作“Lowe's 那个搬木头的”。但他脑子里装的是一整个正在坍塌的家庭、一场手术、一次卖掉祖产的抉择。Anthony 说，这就是蓝领最容易被忽视的地方：他们的复杂度和最富有的人一样高，只是没有平台展示。
他把这个观察推得更远：真正把美国社会撑起来的那批人，恰恰是最没有话语权的一批人。没有隧道工就没有隧道，没有下水道工就没有城市，没有水下焊工就没有港口。他有个朋友在切萨皮克湾的海底干活，一周工作七八十小时，上过 Anthony 一辈子都不敢上的高台，下过他一辈子都不会去的地下。这个人走进一间会客厅，没人会多看一眼。
由此引出一件很残酷的事：蓝领男性的自杀率极高。Anthony 说，他们太会藏。处理不好的事情全堆在心里，堆上一两年，堆成一座山，最后从桥上跳下去。Lex 说了一句“你能从他们眼睛里看到这种痛”。
访谈里 Anthony 还提了一个此前没怎么被公开讲过的计划：他想去做监狱演出、戒酒所演出，把自己泡进那种心理环境里，去感受那些人真实的日常。他说这件事一直想做，一直被各种乱七八糟的事绊住。
抑郁是一座慢慢堆起来的山
访谈里最私人的一段，是他讲自己的最低谷。
17 岁辍学，离家出走，几乎同时让一个女孩怀孕，18 岁当了爹。他说自己一直有“权威问题”，不想听父母的，不想上大学，只想搬进山里。之后的人生全是反应式的，跳槽、搬城市、换关系，从来没有过一个计划。他补了一句，跟大多数蓝领一样。
真正掉进去是什么感觉？他的描述非常准确。你不再相信自己，你知道自己没有活出该有的样子，但你也不想照镜子承认这一点。相比认下这个事实，喝酒容易得多。于是你开始天天喝，每天做最低限度的工作，让自己别彻底垮掉，但你已经不太在乎自己是死是活。
他把抑郁定义成一种“麻木”：你喜欢的东西不再有意义，找不到任何刺激和目的感。男人走上自杀这条路，很少是某一天突然想不开，背后通常有一段持续很久的自我否定。累积到一定程度，他面前就出现了一座处理不了、也不愿意处理的责任之山。翻过这座山要付出巨大努力，旁边却有一条捷径，只要把大脚趾放上扳机。
那时候现实感已经扭曲到看不见“爱”和“喜悦”这一类东西。你知道它们存在，脑子里已经没有那个频道了。剩下的只有恐惧、责任，和一座你不知道自己爬不爬得上去的山。
他在这里提到 Andrew Huberman 讲过的现象：很多人能坚持每天给狗喂药，却坚持不下来自己吃药。因为你对狗没有道德审判，你看不到它身上的缺点、罪和恶心，你只看到它是条好狗。对自己就完全不同，满眼都是失败，最后连最基础的自我照料都做不下去。一旦连洗澡和吃饭都不在意，自我价值感就真的归零了。你凭什么去面对那堆要解决的破事？
怎么走出来的？他说没什么秘诀，靠的是慢慢相信一件事：自己本质上没那么糟，只是摔了一跤。写点东西，祷告，读一点《新约》，看看那些被判死刑的使徒是怎么在监狱里喜乐地写信。他说，关键是你脑子里那个判断力的声音一直没消失，它在告诉你你在做错事。问题是你把自己弄得太麻木，听不见它了。
戒酒之后，只过了一个月，所有的事就发生了。他自己也承认这个时间线有点“不公平”。但他见过朋友戒酒之后重新长出人的样子，那是一种特别震撼的场面。他说：一个人哪怕还欠着三万信用卡债，干着烂工作，车子一半时间打不着火，女朋友跟别人跑了，只要眼里还有一点微光，一点“还有机会”的信念，他就能推着自己走很远。
这一段最后，两人聊到孤独。Anthony 说，现代人看起来连接得比历史上任何时候都紧，实际却比任何时候都孤独。他玩《现代战争 2》玩了几百小时，也在上面真交到了一些朋友，所以他不反对线上连接。但他和妻子从来没有靠发短信解决过一次吵架。所有真正要解决的问题，最后都得回到肉身。
92 英亩地，一辆 750 美元的拖车
2019 年，Anthony 卖掉自家那栋小屋，用卖房的钱加上贷款，在弗吉尼亚买下 92 英亩地，一英亩大约 1100 美元。他花 750 美元从打猎俱乐部买了一辆二手拖车拖上山，用零利率贷款买了台小拖拉机，动手把一条废弃的运木路重新开出来。他承认，这件事对婚姻的压力非常大。
但他说，那是他真正开始活着的一年。抑郁好转的起点就在那里。
他给了一个很具体的原因。人类文明里所有让他不舒服的东西，在网上、在公司、在报纸上到处都是，都是不确定、无组织、一团糟的。大自然里一切都确定，都是系统。土壤里有系统，细菌修复土壤，某些植物恢复某些养分，某些树吸引某些鸟，鸟又帮助传播种子。一整个完整的、精密的、正在运行的秩序就在那儿摆着。
这个秩序里有暴力，有真正的龙卷风，有捕食，有无情的淘汰。但看到这个系统本身，会让他重新相信有比自己更大的东西在运转。他说，坐在一条溪流旁边，只听见水声，看不到车，看不到任何人工的东西，就那样安静地坐一会儿，是他已知的最强的治疗。
现在他在经营一座废弃了六七年的永续农业农场，之前的主人种过草药、蓝莓，有果园。他的梦想是把这里做成一个“让人来修脑子”的地方。他要养鸡、养蛋鸡、养猪、养羊、养山羊，春天准备开始养牛，试着做和牛和安格斯。他不打算做 Ted Nugent 那种风格的账号，他只是想让这块地自己会产出食物，让来的人自己会安静下来。
他甚至跟 Robert Kennedy Jr. 聊过这件事，肯尼迪亲自去过他的农场，两边商量过一个“治愈中心”的方向，具体推进要看时机。他还想找一些体型大的动物来做心理治疗，美国有专门针对退伍军人的大型动物疗法，他看过那种疗愈效果。
Lex 在这里插了一段亚马逊雨林的经历。他说自己曾一个人在丛林里待了一天一夜。那里的声音把“安静”这个词推到另一个量级：不同物种的动物在交配、在互相残杀、在树上吵架，落叶层里的蚂蚁大军在屠杀另一群蚂蚁，那是一整支昆虫交响乐。那股安静来自没有机械声。当你偶尔在远处听到一声电锯，那一瞬间你会明白人类文明对自然的所作所为是什么样子。
Anthony 接过这个比喻。他说每次看到树林被推平、变成住宅小区，他脑子里的猴子都想一把火把它烧了。他形容不出这种直觉，只知道它“就是不对”。
我们正处在最后一段窗口期
访谈后段，两人各自描述了同一件事：现实世界的体验正在被算法吃掉。
Anthony 说，过去二十年，世界的物质部分在一点点变糟，城市变脏，工作变差，各种问题变多，互联网和游戏在飞快变好。当现实生活往一个方向走、虚拟生活往另一个方向走，“逃离”这件事就有了前所未有的吸引力。问题在于，你逃进去再也回不来。他本想去 YouTube 看怎么换刹车片，十分钟后在看别人扔蛋糕，等他反应过来已经刷了四五个视频。
Lex 接着讲他去做客 Tim Sweeney 的那期节目。Sweeney 是 Epic Games 的 CEO，做出了 Unreal 引擎和《堡垒之夜》。Lex 本来对“在游戏里和朋友聊天”这件事很怀疑，实际玩过之后发现，那更像一次电话会议，语音是主体，画面只是辅助。它有真实的价值。前提是，你得真的回到物理世界。他特别提到“男性朋友一起出去”的那种旅程，打猎、钓鱼、露营，做什么不重要，重要的是肉身在场。
两人有一个共识：我们目前还处在一个很窄的时间窗口里。人类历史上第一次，普通人能接触到几乎所有的信息，同时又还记得没有这些东西的世界是什么样子。Anthony 说这是一段“呼吸那么短的时间”。如果在这段时间里找不到共存的方式，等这一口气过去，就再也回不去了。再往后两三代人，没有人再记得从前那种生活是什么样子。
他给出的方向很务实。去观察那些在社交平台上最能吸引人的东西都是什么：切木头、修水管、打铁、生火、做饭、干活。这些东西能被几十亿人看，说明人本能地被它们吸引。问题就变成了，怎么把它们变回现实里的体验。
他的收尾更狠。如果只是放任这种沉浸下去，到最后我们甚至不知道自己失去了什么。剩下的可能只有 Instagram 上的女孩，只有那个。
一只三腿猫和一首布考斯基
访谈快结束的时候，Lex 问起 Anthony 在 Instagram 上发过的那只三腿猫。
故事是这样的。他家附近住着一位老太太，独居在一辆单宽拖车里，养了三四十只猫。某个下大雨的周六早上八点，老太太慌慌张张喊救命，说猫卡在车里了。她不知道车下面躲了一只小猫，一打火，小猫的前腿被卷进了水泵皮带轮，几乎整个扯断，只剩一点肌腱还连着。Anthony 的妻子是兽医助理，她动手切掉了残余的部分，把猫救了出来。治疗花了 1000 多美元。Anthony 给它起名叫 Hop，现在 Hop 在农场里一蹦一蹦地跑。
Lex 说，这是人类最珍贵的部分。花一千多美元救一只猫完全不理性，世界上受苦的猫多得是，按成本效益算说不通。人却在看见眼前一只小东西受苦的时候愿意搬山。这就是人之所以是人的地方。
然后他给 Anthony 读了一首布考斯基的诗，《一只硬汉的历史》（The History of One Tough Motherfucker）。诗里那只猫被人砍掉尾巴，被枪打中过（X 光片上还留着弹丸），被朋友的车压断脊背，兽医说它这辈子再也不能走了。布考斯基把它放在浴室地板上，用手指蘸水喂它，一天一天跟它说话，不离开。某一天猫自己撑起前腿往前爬，爬到猫砂盆边上。又某一天它站起来，摔下去，看着他。布考斯基说：“你能行。”最后它真的走了几步。诗的最后，功成名就的布考斯基在采访里喝醉，把这只猫举起来，说你看，我受的不是塞利纳的影响，是这种事的影响，是这种事。
Anthony 听完很安静，说了句“我喜欢这个”。他把自己的音乐、自己的农场、自己的婚姻，都放在这首诗的延长线上。都是被压过、被摔过、被砍掉过一部分的东西，慢慢爬起来继续走。他救那只猫，某种意义上是在救自己。他没有说出这句话，但整场对话停顿的那几秒里，这句话在场。
看完这场对话，可以立刻试的几件事
这场对话里 Anthony 没给出什么宏大方案，都是一些小到能马上动手的事。挑几条值得留下来的：
- 每天留 20 分钟给没有算法的世界。不用去荒野，一条真的有树、有草、有风的路上走一走就够。目的是让大脑重新习惯“没人喂你”的状态。
- 找一个跟手上活有关的爱好。种点东西、修点东西、做点吃的。关键是“从无到有”的过程，结果不重要。
- 至少每个月把一位线上认识的朋友拉到线下见一次。电话和游戏不算数。一起吃顿饭，一起干点事，重点在于对面坐着的是活人。
- 在合适的场合说出真实的反对意见。一次健康的冲突抵得过十次表演性的和气。系统的自我修正能力，靠的就是这点“毒”。
- 状态不好的时候，只做山脚下的一件小事。洗澡、喂猫、整理一个抽屉，都行。山是一步一步爬的，别想着一天翻过去。
- 身边那个看着一切正常的蓝领朋友，多问一句。他们最会藏。一句“你最近怎么样”不解决问题，但会让他知道有人看见他了。
- 去听那些还没被市场优化过的东西。包括人，包括歌，包括一个小镇上一场没人宣传的演出。它们的粗糙恰恰证明它们还活着。
- 去找一位你愿意花钱“不值当地”救一把的人或动物。理性算不出这种事，人却正是靠这种事定义自己。
访谈结束前，Lex 说了句很简单的告别。Anthony 回了一句同样简单的话：来这里是我的荣幸，尤其是能在现实里见到你，你是我以为的那个人。两个写歌和讲话的人，在镜头前互相确认了一件事，人还能被这样看见。
The following is a conversation with Oliver Anthony, a singer-songwriter from Virginia who first gained worldwide fame with his viral hit Rich Men North of Richmond.
以下是与来自弗吉尼亚州的创作歌手奥利弗·安东尼 (Oliver Anthony) 的对话，他凭借热门歌曲《里士满北部的富人》(Rich Men North of Richmond) 首次享誉全球。
00:00 He became a voice for many who are voiceless with his songs speaking to the struggle of the working class in modern American life.
他用他的歌曲讲述了现代美国生活中工人阶级的斗争，为许多无声的人发声。
00:22 His legal name is Christopher Anthony Lunsford.
他的法定姓名是克里斯托弗·安东尼·伦斯福德。
Oliver Anthony was his grandfather’s name.
奥利弗·安东尼是他祖父的名字。
And so, Chris used this name as a dedication to his grandfather, and to 1930s Appalachia where his grandfather was born and raised.
因此，Chris 用这个名字来纪念他的祖父，以及他祖父出生和长大的 20 世纪 30 年代阿巴拉契亚地区。
00:36 “Dirt floors, seven kids, hard times,” as Chris says.
“肮脏的地板，七个孩子，艰难的时光，”克里斯说。
He’s happy to be called either one, by the way.
顺便说一句，他很高兴被称为其中任何一个。
I’ve gotten to know Chris more since the recording of this conversation.
自从录制这次谈话以来，我对克里斯有了更多的了解。
He truly is as he appears online, and in his songs, down to Earth, humble, and a good man who deeply feels the pain of the downtrodden.
他确实如他在网上和歌曲中所表现的那样，脚踏实地、谦虚，是一个深深感受到受压迫者痛苦的好人。
00:59 This is a Lex Fridman podcast.
这是莱克斯·弗里德曼的播客。
To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description, and now, dear friends, here’s Christopher Lunsford, or as many of you know him as, Oliver Anthony.
为了支持它，请在说明中查看我们的赞助商，现在，亲爱的朋友们，这是克里斯托弗·伦斯福德（Christopher Lunsford），或者你们中很多人都知道他，奥利弗·安东尼（Oliver Anthony）。
01:14 So, I was texting you last night sitting at an open mic listening to a guy perform Great Balls of Fire.
所以，我昨晚给你发短信，坐在开放式麦克风前听一个人表演《火球》。
Like I told you, he was giving everything he got for, like, five people in the audience plus me.
就像我告诉过你的，他为观众中的五个人加上我付出了一切。
Well, you were there.
嗯，你当时就在那里。
01:26 I’d have been doing it too, if you were out there.
如果你在的话，我也会这样做。
Like, “Oh, that’s Lex Fridman.”
就像，“哦，那是莱克斯·弗里德曼。”
No, man.
不，伙计。
01:31 He was this big dude on a keyboard, just everything, sweaty, long hair, you could tell he was there in his own little world.
他是键盘上的大家伙，什么都有，满头大汗，长发，你可以看出他沉浸在自己的小世界里。
I love the courage of that, of just giving it everything.
我喜欢这种勇气，喜欢付出一切。
I don’t think he wants to be famous, I don’t think he wants anything in life except to be there, and to play his heart out.
我不认为他想出名，我不认为他想要生活中的任何东西，除了在那里，并尽情发挥。
That’s why I love open mics.
这就是为什么我喜欢开放式麦克风。
01:51 Like, some people still aspire to be famous when they play open mics, but some people, maybe they’ve given up, or maybe they never wanted to be famous, they’re just there for the pure artistry of it.
就像，有些人在演奏开放式麦克风时仍然渴望出名，但有些人，也许他们已经放弃了，或者也许他们从来不想出名，他们只是为了纯粹的艺术性而存在。
Yeah.
是的。
And you said you started out playing open mics at shitty bars.
你还说你一开始是在破烂的酒吧里用开放式麦克风演奏的。
02:03 What was that like?
那是什么样子的？
Well, yeah.
嗯，是的。
02:07 Real quick before I forget to, a great example of a guy who had that same mindset and was able to maintain it really well was this mandolin player named Johnny Staats in West Virginia.
很快我就忘记了，西弗吉尼亚州一位名叫约翰尼·斯塔茨的曼陀林演奏家就是一个很好的例子，他拥有同样的心态并且能够很好地保持这种心态。
02:18 To me, he’s one of the best, and he’s won all these awards, and stuff, and he still works for UPS full-time.
对我来说，他是最优秀的人之一，他赢得了所有这些奖项等等，而且他仍然全职为 UPS 工作。
And he could go out and tour, play mandolin for anybody he wanted to, but, man, when you meet Johnny, you can tell he’s just got this joy in him that I don’t think he would have if he …
他可以出去巡演，为任何他想要的人演奏曼陀林，但是，伙计，当你见到约翰尼时，你可以看出他内心充满了这种快乐，我认为如果他……他就不会拥有这种快乐。
02:38 But as far as me with the open mics, yeah, it was just …
但就我而言，使用开放式麦克风，是的，这只是……
A lot of them were embarrassing.
他们中的很多人都感到尴尬。
There was a couple …
有一对夫妇……
I remember there was times where I’d go up and try to do …
我记得有几次我会上去尝试做……
I’d do one song, I’d get halfway through the next song, and I’d be so nervous by that point, I couldn’t remember any of the words, and there’s a couple times I …
我会唱一首歌，下一首歌会唱到一半，那时我会非常紧张，我记不起任何歌词，有几次我……
02:57 I remember there was one time in particular that I just walked off halfway through the song, and put my guitar in the case, and just left.
我记得特别有一次，我唱到一半就走开了，把吉他放进琴盒里，然后就离开了。
I couldn’t even stay in there, just total freakout.
我什至不能呆在那里，完全吓坏了。
Just embarrassment?
只是尴尬吗？
And I never drank in bars either.
我也从不在酒吧喝酒。
03:11 Like, I wasn’t really a social drinker.
就像，我并不是一个真正的社交饮酒者。
So, I was just there to try to do the mic.
所以，我只是在那里尝试做麦克风。
So, I was a little out of place anyway.
所以，无论如何，我都有点格格不入。
I feel out of place in a bar to start with.
我一开始就觉得在酒吧里格格不入。
Yeah.
是的。
03:22 This is back when you could smoke in bars.
这又回到了你可以在酒吧吸烟的时代。
There’s a whole vibe to it-
有一种整体的氛围——
Yeah.
是的。
…
……
03:25 people smoking and drinking.
人们抽烟喝酒。
And, yeah.
而且，是的。
Definitely bombing in a place like that when the audience is …
当观众在这样的地方绝对是轰炸……
There’s, like, five people, and they’re bored.
大概有五个人，他们都很无聊。
Yeah.
是的。
03:36 There was one like that.
有一个这样的。
It was in Matoaka.
那是在马托卡。
It wasn’t that far from where I lived.
离我住的地方并不远。
The place is gone now, but it was about as big as the room we’re in here, if that.
这个地方现在已经消失了，但它大约和我们这里的房间一样大，如果那样的话。
Like, the ceiling tiles were yellow from where everybody had smoked in it since the beginning of time.
就像，天花板瓷砖是黄色的，因为从一开始每个人都在里面抽烟。
But, yeah.
但是，是的。
That was my little spot, those little type of spots.
那是我的小地方，那些小地方。
You did covers.
你做了封面。
03:53 What’d you play?
你玩了什么？
What was your go-to?
你的首选是什么？
Back then it was, like, I don’t know, Fishing in the Dark, Nitty- Gritty Band, or any of those old Hank Jr. Songs, any of those bar type of …
那时候，就像，我不知道，《黑暗中钓鱼》、《本质乐队》，或者任何那些老汉克·Jr. 的歌曲，任何那些酒吧类型的……
03:56 Like, David Allan Coe, You Never Call Me By My Name, any of that kind of stuff.
比如大卫·艾伦·科、《你从不以我的名字呼唤我》之类的。
04:10 And I haven’t even played any of those in forever now, but that was …
我什至已经永远没有玩过其中任何一个了，但那是……
Any of those ones where you get people singing along, and stuff, that’s what I’d always try to do.
任何能让人们一起唱歌的东西，这就是我一直尝试做的事情。
Yeah.
是的。
04:18 That song you performed Take Me Home Country Roads, how does that go?
你表演的那首歌《Take Me Home Country Roads》听起来怎么样？
“West Virginia”-
“西弗吉尼亚州”——
Yeah.
是的。
That’s a good song.
这是一首好歌。
John Denver was just one of those guys that who knows where he would have went, long-term, if he wouldn’t have passed, but-
约翰·丹佛只是那些谁知道如果他没有通过的话，从长远来看他会去哪里的人之一，但是-
You know what’s a fun song that I love, I shouldn’t, but I love is …
你知道我喜欢什么有趣的歌曲，我不应该喜欢，但我喜欢的是……
04:32 What is it?
它是什么？
Thank God I’m A Country Boy.
感谢上帝，我是一个乡村男孩。
I think that’s what I liked about John Denver was he was a little bit …
我想这就是我喜欢约翰·丹佛的原因，因为他有一点……
04:41 He let himself be a little bit corny in the spirit of having fun with it.
他本着乐在其中的精神，让自己变得有点老套。
Like, a great example, there’s this older guy that not a lot of people have heard of him named Roy Clark, but my farm’s a mile down the road from Roy Clark’s old farm, but he used to be on Hee Haw.
举个很好的例子，有一个名叫罗伊·克拉克 (Roy Clark) 的老家伙，没有多少人听说过他，但我的农场距离罗伊·克拉克 (Roy Clark) 的旧农场只有一英里，但他曾经在 Hee Haw 上。
I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of that old show from the ’60s, or whatever, but a crazy dude.
我不知道你是否听说过 60 年代的老节目，或者其他什么，但是一个疯狂的家伙。
He could pick any instrument up.
他可以拿起任何乐器。
Like, there’s videos on YouTube of him, but he would just sit there and just pick anything up, and just rip it to death.
就像 YouTube 上有他的视频，但他只是坐在那里，捡起任何东西，然后把它撕死。
05:11 But he would always just be real silly about it.
但他总是对此感到非常愚蠢。
He never took himself too seriously.
他从不把自己看得太重。
Some people go to the fun place, some people go to the dark place.
有的人去热闹的地方，有的人去黑暗的地方。
Yeah.
是的。
Country can do both.
国家可以两者兼而有之。
05:21 You more often go to the dark place to-
你更经常去黑暗的地方——
Yeah.
是的。
To the pain.
至痛。
Yeah.
是的。
05:28 Well, especially, some of the new songs that are coming out.
嗯，特别是一些即将发行的新歌。
They’ll be probably not …
他们可能不会……
I don’t know what they’ll be.
我不知道它们会是什么。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
What is country anymore anyway?
国家到底是什么？
05:38 I don’t know that many people who listen to the type of music that I grew up listening to ain’t probably listening to country radio anymore anyway.
我不知道很多听我从小听的音乐类型的人可能不再听乡村广播了。
Like, I think there’s quite a lot of people who have disowned that space.
就像，我认为有很多人不承认这个空间。
05:51 In commercialized country, you only really get what sells, and a lot of what sells isn’t necessarily what matters.
在商业化国家，你只能买到真正畅销的东西，而很多畅销的东西并不一定是重要的。
Well, you had that whole experience where the take where you record it and “polish it”, try to make it perfect, and in so doing, destroy the soul of the thing.
好吧，你有过这样的经历：你在录制并“润色”它的过程中，试图使其变得完美，但这样做却摧毁了事物的灵魂。
05:58 And so, probably that happens with these big artists.
所以，这些大艺术家可能会发生这种情况。
They’re so famous.
他们太有名了。
It’s, like, a machine and so-
它就像一台机器等等——
Yeah.
是的。
…
……
06:14 what the machine does is it over-polishes things.
这台机器的作用是过度抛光东西。
And so, the raw power of the person, the uniqueness of the person, the soul of the person is gone, if you do that.
因此，如果你这样做，一个人的原始力量、一个人的独特性、一个人的灵魂就会消失。
Yeah.
是的。
06:26 Well, I think professionalism in general …
嗯，我认为总体上专业精神......
Like, applying the tactics of corporate America to anything that is-
就像，将美国企业的策略应用到任何事情上——
Yeah.
是的。
…
……
06:34 baseline artistic is not going to end well.
基线艺术不会有好结果。
They’re all individually brilliant, but together, this corporate speak comes out.
他们个人都很出色，但结合在一起，就能说出这样的企业演讲。
Yeah.
是的。
Just the soul of the people, it dissipates.
只是人的灵魂，就消散了。
06:43 It disappears.
它消失了。
Why are you all pretending that life is not terrible and beautiful and you’re both scared shitless and excited and this guy’s going through a divorce, this person just fell in love.
为什么你们都假装生活并不可怕，而且很美好，你们既害怕又兴奋，而这个人正在离婚，这个人刚刚坠入爱河。
Like, you’re-
就像，你是——
Yeah.
是的。
…
……
07:04 forgetting the intensity of life with this corporate nine to five, “Hi, John.
忘记了朝九晚五的公司生活的强度，“嗨，约翰。
It’s great to see you today.” “Oh, you too.
今天见到你真是太好了。” “噢，你也一样。
You as well.”
你也一样。”
Yeah.
是的。
“You as well.” But when I look at it, I’m like, “Why am I whining?” I feel like a Bukowski type character, because they’re all really nice.
“你也一样。”但当我看到它时，我会想：“我为什么抱怨？”我觉得自己像布考斯基类型的角色，因为他们都非常好。
07:18 They’re all good people.
他们都是好人。
But something is gone when you have this corporate machine.
但当你拥有这台公司机器时，有些东西就消失了。
Well, they’re there to fill a role, contractually, and I think if they bring too many of their human elements into that, then they jeopardize losing their sense of security.
嗯，按照合同，他们是为了填补一个角色，我认为如果他们在其中加入太多的人性元素，那么他们就有失去安全感的危险。
07:31 It’s all just out of fear.
这一切都只是出于恐惧。
It’s out of fear of losing your job.
这是出于对失去工作的恐惧。
07:44 It’s the reason why all of the songs say Oliver Anthony and not Christopher Lunsford on them.
这就是为什么所有歌曲上都写着奥利弗·安东尼而不是克里斯托弗·伦斯福德。
Like, it’s fear of …
比如，这是害怕……
It’s so difficult to, especially now, it seems …
太难了，尤其是现在，似乎……
Who knows?
谁知道？
I was never around in the ’40s or ’50s to work a job.
我在 40 年代或 50 年代从来没有工作过。
I’m sure they were probably pretty miserable back then, but they talk about now how difficult it is, like, the impossibility of having a single family household, or anything else, but when you find a decent-paying job that you can do without it just torturing you every day, that’s a pretty important thing now.
我确信他们当时可能很痛苦，但他们现在谈论这是多么困难，比如，不可能拥有一个单一的家庭，或者其他什么，但是当你找到一份薪水不错的工作，你可以做而不是每天折磨你，这现在是一件非常重要的事情。
08:17 And so, it’s pretty easy to turn yourself into a robot for eight, or 10 hours a day out of fear of …
因此，出于对……的恐惧，很容易把自己变成机器人，每天工作 8 或 10 个小时。
It’s, like, you don’t want to be yourself too much, because maybe part of yourself isn’t something that’s accepted in this dystopian nightmare that you go to work at every day.
就像，你不想太做你自己，因为也许你自己的一部分在你每天上班的反乌托邦噩梦中不被接受。
And so, you’ve just got to do your best to just not step on any toes, or do anything that makes you stand out too much.
所以，你必须尽力不要踩到任何人的脚趾，或者做任何让你太引人注目的事情。
08:41 And now when you scroll through some of these videos of people …
现在，当你滚动浏览一些人们的视频时……
Even when I was still working my lame job, it was, like, there was this whole big thing of people talking about quiet quitting, or something like that where they were just going to go to work, but not really do anything, but-
即使当我还在做我蹩脚的工作时，就像是，有人在谈论安静的辞职，或者类似的事情，他们只是去工作，但没有真正做任何事情，但是-
That hurts me so much.
这让我很伤心。
08:58 That hurts me when you just stop, when you’re there, but you’re not really there.
当你停下来，当你在那里，但你并不真正在那儿时，这让我很受伤。
That makes me so sad.
这让我很伤心。
Yeah.
是的。
09:05 So, then these companies just slowly fall apart, and disintegrate, because they’re so worried about structure and …
所以，这些公司就会慢慢分崩离析，因为他们非常担心结构和……
09:13 Like, God, man, even in America today, our culture has become …
就像，上帝啊，即使在今天的美国，我们的文化也已经变得……
Because so many big corporations own and manage everything that we live under, like, food, agriculture, healthcare, social media, it’s all in corporate structures, that it’s almost, like, a lot of the problems we find ourselves in now with society, I think are like …
因为很多大公司拥有并管理着我们生活的一切，比如食品、农业、医疗保健、社交媒体，这一切都在公司结构中，这几乎就像是我们现在在社会中发现的很多问题，我认为就像......
It’s almost, like, corporate HR has been implemented into our whole thought process of everything.
这几乎就像企业人力资源已经融入到我们所有事情的整个思维过程中。
09:39 I think that’s what you’re touching on, though.
不过，我认为这就是你所触及的内容。
It’s hard to be a human, and be a good little corporate employee at the same time.
做一个人，同时做一个优秀的小公司员工，是很不容易的。
And as our whole society moves more into becoming, basically, one big corporation, it’s, like, you don’t want to piss the HR lady off.
随着我们整个社会基本上逐渐成为一家大公司，就像，你不想惹恼人力资源女士。
So, it’s a lot easier for me to just beep boop.
所以，对我来说，发出嘟嘟声要容易得多。
We’re all turning into robots.
我们都在变成机器人。
I’ve talked to great engineers about this, Jim Keller is a legendary engineer, Elon, Elon Musk is another example, that you need that …
我和伟大的工程师谈过这个问题，吉姆·凯勒是一位传奇工程师，埃隆，埃隆·马斯克是另一个例子，你需要......
10:06 I don’t know what’s the nice term for it, but you need the asshole, because you want to get to the ground truth of things, to the first principle of things.
我不知道用什么词来形容它比较好，但你需要混蛋，因为你想要了解事物的真相，了解事物的首要原则。
Like, how do we simplify?
比如，我们如何简化？
How do we make it more efficient?
我们如何让它更有效率？
How do we move faster?
我们如何行动得更快？
How do we get shit done?
我们怎样才能把事情做好呢？
And that has no place for this polite speak.
这不适合这种礼貌的谈话。
10:32 And then other great team members swoop in, and repair the damage that the tornado has done.
然后其他优秀的团队成员就会蜂拥而至，修复龙卷风造成的损害。
Do you think that’s …
你认为那是……
10:41 Because I’m not super well-versed about all this.
因为我对这一切并不是很了解。
So, I’m probably dumb to even mention it, but this guy who’s been helping me with doing a documentary, he’s been following me around since the very first show, August of ’23.
所以，我可能都懒得提了，但是这个一直在帮我拍纪录片的人，从 23 年 8 月的第一场演出开始，他就一直在关注我。
10:56 His background was doing promotional videos for Boeing.
他的背景是为波音公司制作宣传视频。
Like, for on their new spacecraft to pitch it to whoever.
就像，在他们的新宇宙飞船上把它推销给任何人。
And so, we touched base a little bit on Boeing, and, of course, they’re having a lot of problems now it sounds like.
因此，我们对波音有了一些了解，当然，他们现在听起来有很多问题。
11:09 And he was comparing that with SpaceX, or with …
他正在将其与 SpaceX 进行比较，或者与......
I think it’s that, exactly what we touched on with that thought process of that dehumanization within companies.
我认为这正是我们在公司内部非人化的思维过程中所谈到的。
11:21 I think that’s what, ultimately, causes maybe …
我认为这最终可能会导致……
I don’t know if there’s a connection there, or not, but it seems like Boeing would be more of that …
我不知道这之间是否有联系，但波音公司似乎更是如此……
They don’t have that tornado.
他们没有龙卷风。
They’re very …
他们非常……
He was telling me even just with his protocols, and some of the people he worked with, like, everything’s just very, “Lightly touch everything.
即使只是通过他的协议，他也告诉我，和他一起工作的一些人，就像，一切都非常，“轻轻地触摸一切。
Don’t touch anything too hard.”
不要碰太硬的东西。”
So, it’s not just HR.
所以，这不仅仅是人力资源。
11:39 It’s just this managerial class where it’s, like, Bob from this department has to schedule a meeting with John from this department and Debbie …
只是这个管理班级，就像这个部门的鲍勃必须安排与这个部门的约翰和黛比的会议......
Like, they have to have a meeting two and a half weeks from now, and then there’s paperwork, and then that bureaucracy that’s created in the managerial class just slows everything down.
比如，他们必须在两周半后召开会议，然后是文书工作，然后管理阶层中产生的官僚主义只会减慢一切。
12:02 And one of the things that slowing everything down does is it really demotivates the people that are actually doing the shit.
放慢一切速度的后果之一是，它确实会降低那些真正在做这些事情的人的积极性。
Like, the people on the ground, the engineers that are building stuff, it’s, again, soul-drenching to be excited, show up, and now you hit this wall of paperwork.
就像，现场的人们，正在建造东西的工程师，再一次，兴奋、出现、现在你遇到了这面文书工作，这真是令人心旷神怡。
Like, you have to wait for John and Debbie and I forgot the third guy’s name that I imagined in my head to have a meeting.
就像，你必须等待约翰和黛比，而我忘记了我在脑海中想象的要开会的第三个人的名字。
And then you slow down, and you disappear in terms of that fire, that passion that’s required to create big things.
然后你放慢速度，你就消失在火焰中，消失在创造伟大事物所需的激情中。
Yeah, because they don’t believe there’s a lack of leadership, and if they don’t believe in that leadership, then why the hell would they be motivated?
是的，因为他们不相信缺乏领导力，如果他们不相信这种领导力，那么他们到底为什么会有动力呢？
12:42 I remember a while back watching Jocko Willink talk about that when he was in leadership when he was leading his guys.
我记得不久前，当乔科·威林克（Jocko Willink）领导他的团队时，他曾谈论过这一点。
I think he mentions it in his book is probably where I remember seeing it, one of his books.
我想他在他的书中提到过这一点，这可能是我记得在他的一本书中看到的。
13:06 And he talks about how important it was for the people under him in rank to believe in the actions he was giving them, even if he necessarily didn’t agree with them himself, it was, like, it’s really hard to take orders, and to have human spirit, especially, in something that’s innovative, and not …
他谈到，对于他的下属来说，相信他所采取的行动是多么重要，即使他本人不一定同意这些行动，就像，很难接受命令，也很难拥有人文精神，特别是在创新的事情上，而不是......
If you’re working for a company where you just think everybody’s dumb …
如果你在一家公司工作，你认为每个人都是愚蠢的……
13:29 I can, certainly, relate with that.
我当然可以理解这一点。
God, at my old job, that’s all we did is we spent half our day just talking about how dumb we thought everybody was that was above us.
天哪，在我以前的工作中，我们所做的就是花半天时间谈论我们认为比我们高的人是多么愚蠢。
It’s easy to fall into that in a corporate world.
在企业界很容易陷入这种困境。
13:41 And so, yeah.
所以，是的。
The morale gets terrible, and everyone suffers as a result of it.
士气低落，每个人都因此受苦。
Like, the people at the top who were implementing all that dysfunction suffer, and the people at the bottom.
就像，那些实施所有功能障碍的顶层人员遭受痛苦，而底层人员则遭受痛苦。
It’s not good for anybody.
这对任何人都没有好处。
13:54 I had thought now that I’m doing this that I could escape away from that, but that exact same mentality, and that dysfunction, and that inefficiency, I still battle it every day.
我原以为我现在这样做是为了摆脱那个，但完全相同的心态，那种功能障碍，以及那种低效率，我仍然每天都在与之斗争。
That’s why it takes unique characters to lead the way.
这就是为什么需要独特的角色来引领潮流。
14:07 Such unique characters are very much needed in the music industry to revolutionize everything, cut through the bureaucracy, the bullshit that, ultimately, is just the machine that steals money, and doesn’t get anything done really.
音乐行业非常需要这种独特的人物来彻底改变一切，打破官僚主义，这些废话最终只是偷钱的机器，并没有真正完成任何事情。
14:23 We’ll talk about it.
我们会讨论它。
By the way, all the love in the world to Jocko.
顺便说一句，世界上所有的爱都给了乔科。
He’s great.
他很棒。
I’ve been going through lots of ups and downs in life, lots of low points for myself over the past, shit, three years really, but recently, especially, and he always texts in his very high testosterone way of like, “You good, bro?
我在生活中经历了很多起起落落，在过去的三年里，我自己经历了很多低谷，但最近，尤其是，他总是用他非常高的睾丸激素方式发短信，比如，“你好吗，兄弟？
Just checking in.” He’s a good man.
刚刚登记入住。”他是个好人。
He’s a good man.
他是个好人。
He’s, obviously, an inspiration to millions of people, but also just he’s a good human being himself.
显然，他激励了数百万人，但他本人也是一个好人。
Maybe one thing that we felt similarly, I would imagine, you way more than me is just feeling like, “Wow.
也许我们有相似的感受，我想，你比我更多的感觉就是，“哇。
14:59 I have the ability to influence, or the ability to either bring truth, or to improve people’s lives, or …” Every word that you say sometimes matters so much, and you’re just like, “Man, I’m an idiot.”
我有能力影响，或者有能力带来真相，或者改善人们的生活，或者……”你所说的每一句话有时都很重要，而你就像，“伙计，我是个白痴。”
Yeah.
是的。
Like, I don’t know …
比如，我不知道……
15:23 Like, I would have never guessed.
就像，我永远不会猜到。
We were talking about that before about we would have never guessed that this would have turned into all this, but it is a weight that you bear, whether you really even acknowledge it, or not.
我们之前谈到过，我们永远不会想到这会变成这一切，但这是你承受的重量，无论你是否真的承认它。
Yeah.
是的。
15:38 I think the songs you’ve created, they speak to the human condition, to the struggle of everyday working people in a society that has the elites, that try to take advantage of those working people.
我认为你创作的歌曲讲述了人类的状况，讲述了一个拥有精英的社会中每天劳动人民的斗争，他们试图利用这些劳动人民。
And you’re just speaking through your music those truths of how life is.
你只是通过音乐讲述生活的真相。
16:04 And that has a huge impact on a lot of people.
这对很多人产生了巨大的影响。
That’s really positive.
这确实是积极的。
But then you also get attacked, and misrepresented and lied about from different angles.
但随后你也会受到攻击，并从不同角度歪曲和撒谎。
16:15 And just the turmoil, the intense chaos of that, it disorients, it disorients me to be attacked by a very large number of people, to be lied about, to be …
只是那种混乱，那种强烈的混乱，让我迷失了方向，让我迷失了方向，被一大群人攻击，被谎言，被……
Because I love people, I have a general optimism about humanity, it just disorients me.
因为我爱人，所以我对人性抱有一种普遍的乐观态度，但这让我迷失了方向。
It gives me this feeling like …
它给我这样的感觉，就像……
I generally, just like you said, think of myself as an idiot, not really knowing what I’m doing, and when a lot of people tell you that, “You’re correct.
就像你说的那样，我通常认为自己是个白痴，并不真正知道自己在做什么，当很多人告诉你时，“你是对的。
You don’t know what you’re doing,” you start to want to hide.
你不知道自己在做什么，”你开始想躲起来。
You want to hide from the world, hide from yourself, and then there’s also just the chemistry of the brain.
你想躲避世界，躲避自己，然后还有大脑的化学反应。
You shake up the brain a little bit.
你的大脑稍微动了一下。
It starts getting weird.
事情开始变得奇怪。
17:08 And then on many fronts, it can get real lonely, when you’re getting attacked, when you’re fucking things up in many ways, it can get lonely.
然后在很多方面，它会变得非常孤独，当你受到攻击时，当你在很多方面把事情搞砸时，它会变得孤独。
Yeah.
是的。
And so, you get a text from Jocko like, “You good?” “Yeah.
所以，你会收到 Jocko 发来的短信，比如“你还好吗？” “是的。
Yeah.”
是的。”
17:24 And I have good friends.
我有好朋友。
Andrew Huberman’s been great, Rogan’s been great.
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）很棒，罗根（Rogan）也很棒。
Well, you know, Lex, however many years ago was in a different place in society than Lex is now.
好吧，你知道，Lex，无论多年前，Lex 在社会中的地位与现在不同。
17:31 And so, it’s, like, every conversation you have, or every relationship you have is inherently different, even if you aren’t any different.
所以，就像，你的每一次谈话，或者你的每一段关系本质上都是不同的，即使你们没有任何不同。
17:45 Friends that you had from before maybe, or even just new people you meet, your interactions with them are going to be a lot different than if this wasn’t a thing.
也许是你以前的朋友，甚至只是你遇到的新朋友，你与他们的互动将会与如果这不是一件事时有很大不同。
17:52 And so, it’s, like, that can be tricky too.
所以，这也可能很棘手。
When you’ve spent your whole life from the time you’re three years old and you’re starting to play with other kids, and developmentally learning how to share and how to interact, and you’re playing in the playground with kids and learning how to set rules and boundaries, and how to, basically, fit into society.
当你从三岁起就开始和其他孩子一起玩，并发展地学习如何分享和互动，你在操场上和孩子们一起玩，学习如何设定规则和界限，以及如何基本上融入社会。
18:13 And so, you have this whole learning pattern up until whatever point in time when “success” happens.
因此，你拥有整个学习模式，直到“成功”发生的任何时间点。
And then it’s, like, all that shifts pretty dramatically in a relatively short period of time.
然后，一切都在相对较短的时间内发生了巨大的变化。
18:26 So, how do you think managing your previous friendships, or your …
那么，你认为如何管理你以前的友谊，或者你的……
Has that been tricky for you?
这对你来说很棘手吗？
Or-
或者-
Yeah.
是的。
18:34 It’s been tough.
这很艰难。
I value deep, close, long-term friendships.
我珍视深厚、亲密、长期的友谊。
And, yeah.
而且，是的。
I have amazing friends, but they, certainly, do treat me a little different.
我有很棒的朋友，但他们对我的态度确实有点不同。
They bust my balls noticeably less.
他们对我蛋蛋的伤害明显减少了。
Yeah.
是的。
18:50 And you need that sometimes.
有时你需要这样。
I need …
我需要……
18:52 Not sometimes.
有时候不会。
All the time.
一直以来。
First of all, it’s how dudes show love is making fun of each other, at least, my friends.
首先，这就是男人们表达爱的方式，就是互相取笑，至少是我的朋友们。
Yeah.
是的。
19:02 Yeah.
是的。
Man, I’m going to get in trouble, but when you watch women interact, they’re often really positive towards each other.
伙计，我会遇到麻烦的，但是当你观察女性互动时，你会发现她们往往对彼此非常积极。
19:05 Like, “Oh, you look great,” dah, dah, dah.
就像，“哦，你看起来棒极了，”达，达，达。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
When you watch dudes interact, like, close friends, they’re just busting each other’s balls, nonstop making fun of each other.
当你看到男人们像亲密朋友一样互动时，他们只是互相攻击，不停地互相取笑。
19:13 And so, yes.
所以，是的。
That has been a little bit harder.
这有点困难。
19:28 I try to break those walls, but that’s why with the famous friends it’s a little bit easier, because they can still …
我试图打破这些墙，但这就是为什么与著名的朋友在一起会更容易一点，因为他们仍然可以……
Like, Rogan roasts me nonstop.
就像罗根不停地烤我一样。
And it just feels good.
感觉很好。
I just sit there and get made fun of, and it’s great.
我只是坐在那里，被人取笑，这很棒。
Yeah.
是的。
It’s great.
这很棒。
And I still do it all the time.
我仍然一直这样做。
19:44 It’s just a different experience now, but I’m, like, a Goodwill junkie.
现在这只是一种不同的体验，但我就像是一个善意的迷。
Like, most of even my clothes were from Goodwill, but I have this addiction with buying paintings from Goodwill.
就像，我的大部分衣服都来自 Goodwill，但我对从 Goodwill 购买画作却上瘾了。
Nice.
好的。
Like, the $8 paintings where it looks like someone was following along with a Bob Ross-
比如，那些价值 8 美元的画作，看起来像是有人在跟着鲍勃·罗斯 (Bob Ross)——
Yeah.
是的。
20:04 Yeah.
是的。
…
……
video, and it didn’t work out quite right.
视频，效果不太好。
Like, I buy every one of those.
就像，我每一件都买。
Yeah.
是的。
I’ll go in there, and buy, like, 10.
我会去那里买，比如 10 个。
20:08 So, just even any time you go out into public now, you know it’s going to be a little different than it was.
所以，即使你现在公开露面，你也知道情况会与以前有所不同。
I don’t know if that makes sense, or not, but-
我不知道这是否有意义，但是——
Yeah.
是的。
20:16 Yeah.
是的。
For sure.
一定。
I’m trying to deal with it, but although, when you talk to world leaders, when you stop into politics a little bit, and you apparently stepped into politics, even though, you never meant to, you’re not a political person, that world is like, “What the fuck?” It’s very intense.
我正在努力解决这个问题，但是，尽管如此，当你与世界领导人交谈时，当你稍微停止涉足政治时，你显然踏入了政治，尽管你从来没有想过，你不是一个政治人物，但那个世界就像是，“他妈的是什么？”非常激烈。
Especially, at an intense moment in history in an extremely divided country.
尤其是在一个极度分裂的国家的历史紧张时刻。
Yeah.
是的。
20:41 Like, saying that I’m not in politics, people are like, “Well, of course, you’re in politics,” and I don’t know whether I am, or not, but I do think a lot of people in politics …
就像，说我不参与政治，人们会说，“好吧，当然，你参与政治，”我不知道我是否参与政治，但我确实认为很多人参与政治......
Like, as far as the people who sit on the internet all day, and argue about stuff on X, or on whatever, Facebook, and all, I do think their heart is in it for the right reasons.
就像，对于那些整天坐在互联网上，在 X 或 Facebook 等其他网站上争论事情的人来说，我确实认为他们的心是出于正确的原因。
They observe that there’s a lot of things wrong in the world that they’d like to see different.
他们观察到世界上有很多错误的事情，他们希望看到不同的事情。
21:06 It’s just how do you get those people out of this four by four square and really …
这只是你如何让那些人离开这个四乘四的正方形，而且真的……
They’re entrapped in a same kind of box that the people at Boeing might be with that …
他们被困在同一种盒子里，波音公司的人可能也被困在这个盒子里……
21:23 It’s the tornado metaphor, but it applies in politics too.
这是龙卷风的比喻，但也适用于政治。
Like, there needs to just be a tornado through politics, and we need to just lay all this other stuff aside, and just figure out what’s really pissing everybody off, what’s really affecting our quality of life.
就像，政治上需要有一场龙卷风，我们需要把所有其他东西放在一边，找出真正让每个人生气的是什么，真正影响我们生活质量的是什么。
21:38 A lot of times we’re arguing over the symptoms of problems instead of identifying the problems, if that makes any sense.
很多时候，我们争论的是问题的症状，而不是找出问题所在，如果这有意义的话。
If Jordan Peterson were here, he would tell us about fire and how-
如果乔丹·彼得森在这里，他会告诉我们关于火以及如何-
Yeah.
是的。
…
……
21:47 important that is, and burning …
重要的是，燃烧……
But it’s all the same-
但都是一样的——
Water and fire and ice, it’s a metaphor, and there would definitely be a connection to the Bible-
水火冰，这是一个比喻，肯定和圣经有联系——
Yeah.
是的。
…
……
21:55 and then you will receive a three hour lecture-
然后你将接受一个三小时的讲座-
But it’s all true.
但这都是真的。
Yeah.
是的。
21:59 It’s all true.
这都是真的。
It’s all 100% accurate.
这一切都是 100% 准确的。
22:01 Yeah.
是的。
That’s the crazy thing, but it all ties into that same thing.
这是一件疯狂的事情，但所有这些都与同一件事有关。
Like, yeah.
就像，是的。
In politics now, it’s almost like there’s a rule book that you have to follow, and if, “You can’t agree with this unless you also agree with that,” it’s like …
在现在的政治中，这几乎就像有一本你必须遵循的规则书，如果“你不能同意这个，除非你也同意那个”，就像……
22:15 And maybe it’s, like, the way that we receive information about what’s going on in the political landscape is always so biased, and it’s like the …
也许，就像我们接收有关政治格局中正在发生的事情的信息的方式总是那么有偏见，就像……
Well, it’s contingent upon this algorithm, this algorithmic system that we live under where we’re fed …
嗯，这取决于这个算法，这个我们赖以生存的算法系统……
It’s, like, we’re almost fed certain sub …
就像，我们几乎已经吃饱了某些子……
22:33 And it’s easy to fall into that, because you don’t like hearing things you disagree with.
而且很容易陷入这种困境，因为你不喜欢听到你不同意的事情。
And so, it’s a lot easier to just turn the TV on, or go on Facebook and look at whatever page posts things that you know you’re going to consistently agree with every day, and it’s not going to challenge the way you think in any little way, or expand your thinking at all.
因此，打开电视或上 Facebook 并查看发布您知道自己每天都会一致同意的内容的任何页面要容易得多，而且它不会以任何方式挑战您的思维方式，也不会扩展您的思维。
22:50 It’s easy to just …
这很容易……
It’s a cult-like type of thing.
这是一种类似邪教的东西。
It’s like, “This is what we all agree with, and if you don’t, then go on git.” But we’re far too complicated for it to really work that way.
就像，“这是我们都同意的，如果你不同意，那就继续 git 吧。”但我们太复杂了，无法真正以这种方式工作。
Well, this actually relates to one of my favorite things in your conversation with Jordan where you’re just shooting the shit about playing live music, and he goes to Kierkegaard.
嗯，这实际上与你和乔丹谈话中我最喜欢的事情之一有关，你只是在谈论现场音乐演奏，而他去了克尔凯郭尔。
Yes.
是的。
Just, like, Søren Kierkegaard, the philosopher.
就像哲学家索伦·克尔凯郭尔（Søren Kierkegaard）一样。
Yes.
是的。
I love Jordan so much.
我非常喜欢乔丹。
I do too.
我也是。
He just goes to Carl Jung and Nietzsche.
他只是去找卡尔·荣格和尼采。
23:24 And there, this idea from Kierkegaard that the crowd is un-truth.
克尔凯郭尔认为群众是不真实的。
There’s elements to the crowd that loses the humanity, and the honesty of an individual that makes up the crowd, because the default incentive of the crowd is to conform to some kind of narrative.
人群中的某些因素失去了人性，以及组成人群的个体的诚实性，因为人群的默认动机是遵循某种叙事。
It’s, like, a distributed system that arrives at a narrative, and the narrative holds control over that crowd as opposed to the individual humans who are thinking for themselves, and being honest with their own thoughts, and realities, and so on.
它就像是一个产生叙事的分布式系统，而叙事控制着人群，而不是独立思考、诚实地面对自己的想法和现实等的个人。
24:06 So, he was saying that as a reason from a communication perspective to speak to individuals in the crowd, not to the crowd.
所以，他说这是从沟通角度来看的一个原因，是与人群中的个人而不是人群交谈。
So, from the performer perspective, the moment you speak to the crowd, you’re speaking to the lie that is the crowd according to Søren Kierkegaard.
因此，从表演者的角度来看，根据索伦·克尔凯郭尔（Søren Kierkegaard）的说法，当你对人群讲话的那一刻，你就是在对人群的谎言说话。
24:23 It’s pretty hardcore.
这是相当硬核的。
Kierkegaard is pretty hardcore.
克尔凯郭尔是相当铁杆的。
Jordan’s pretty hardcore.
乔丹相当硬核。
But that is true.
但这是事实。
24:28 But, specifically, in my case, really, it applies more than it probably does in a lot of cases with crowds, and music.
但是，具体来说，就我而言，它实际上比在人群和音乐的许多情况下更适用。
24:39 Talking about Richmond, I wasn’t necessarily even excited that Richmond did as well as it did.
谈到里士满，我并不一定会对里士满的表现感到兴奋。
It was, like, in a way, it was almost alarming that it did so well.
从某种程度上来说，它的表现如此之好几乎令人震惊。
And so, those crowds that show up, maybe they do like my music, but I also think they’re there for something …
所以，那些出现的人群，也许他们确实喜欢我的音乐，但我也认为他们在那里是为了某些事情……
There is something bigger about it.
还有更重要的事情。
I wish I would have done a better job of having people there at shows to capture some of those crowds I had in ’24, man.
我希望我能做得更好，让人们在演出中捕捉到我在 24 年遇到的人群，伙计。
You mean the size?
你是说尺寸吗？
25:08 The intensity?
强度？
The intensity.
强度。
25:09 Like, it was revolutionary almost.
就像，这几乎是革命性的。
A song of revolution.
一首革命之歌。
25:12 Yeah.
是的。
I think of Redemption Song from Bob Marley.
我想起了鲍勃·马利的救赎之歌。
Like, that song, it just connected with people.
就像那首歌一样，它与人们产生了联系。
There’s something there.
那里有东西。
Well, and so many people identified different …
好吧，很多人都发现了不同的……
25:22 Like I said, it goes back to when we were talking when we first got here, but it was crazy how it was almost like at the beginning, along with the scrutiny, and some of the other things, it was a lot of different people almost fighting over me, or fighting over it, because it resonated with people who voted differently than each other, which is probably a pretty terrifying thing, if you’re in the business of keeping people divided and angry at each other.
就像我说的，这可以追溯到我们第一次来到这里时谈话的时候，但一开始的情况很疯狂，加上审查和其他一些事情，很多不同的人几乎为我而战，或者为它而战，因为它引起了投票不同的人的共鸣，如果你从事的是让人们分裂和互相生气的工作，这可能是一件非常可怕的事情。
25:51 So, it was one of the only times that I can think where there was that much of a sense of unity among people who otherwise wouldn’t …
所以，这是我唯一能想到人们之间有如此多的团结感的时候之一，否则他们不会……
I think about 9/11 when I was a kid.
我想起了我小时候的9/11。
I was in fourth grade, but, God, man, people just put everything aside there for a little while.
我当时上四年级，但是，天哪，人们只是暂时把一切都放在一边。
And it was, like, there’s bigger problems that just aren’t in our face, and if they’re in your face just for a second, or two, you realize it’s hard in your mind to create a graph that’s got all these …
就像，有一些更大的问题没有出现在我们面前，如果它们在你面前出现一两秒钟，你就会意识到很难在你的脑海中创建一个包含所有这些的图表......
26:29 But we argue about a lot of these problems, but if you were to really look at them …
但我们对很多这样的问题争论不休，但如果你真正审视它们……
If you really just stand back and look at all the problems we spend time focusing about on the internet versus all of the things that are affecting us, that really, and probably even at our core piss us off, it’s got to be very disproportionate.
如果你真的只是退后一步，看看我们花时间关注互联网上的所有问题，而不是所有影响我们的事情，那真的，甚至可能在我们的核心激怒了我们，这一定是非常不相称的。
26:48 And the reason it got the reaction it did was because we all …
它之所以得到这样的反应是因为我们都……
Like, no matter what it is that we’re upset about, or what we think needs to be different in the world, or our opinions of things, or how we’re raised, or what our parents taught us, it’s, like, I think we all feel a little bit out of control in this new society.
就像，无论我们对什么感到不安，或者我们认为世界上需要改变什么，或者我们对事物的看法，或者我们的成长方式，或者我们的父母教给我们什么，我认为我们在这个新社会中都感到有点失控。
We all feel like we’re probably …
我们都觉得我们可能……
27:04 We probably all feel like we’re falling into this kind of corporate power structure where we all are just robots, we’re not allowed to be ourselves and be human almost.
我们可能都觉得自己正在陷入这种企业权力结构，我们都只是机器人，我们不被允许做我们自己，几乎不被允许成为人类。
And there’s enough people feeling that.
有足够多的人有这种感觉。
27:17 People on the left feeling like the people in power are fucking over the working class, people on the right feeling the exact same with different words assigned to it, the deep state fucking over middle America-
左翼人士感觉掌权者正在操弄工人阶级，而右翼人士也有同样的感觉，只是用不同的词来形容它，深层政府正在操弄美国中部——
Yeah.
是的。
…
……
27:35 whatever the narratives are, and they’re just …
不管叙述是什么，它们只是……
When enough of that is happening, again, with the corporate polite speak, there’s something about politeness that’s really dangerous.
当这种事情发生得足够多时，再一次，在公司礼貌用语中，礼貌确实是危险的。
27:47 I feel like there was a lot of politeness in the Soviet Union.
我觉得苏联很有礼貌。
Yeah.
是的。
27:50 Prime example.
最好的例子。
Yeah.
是的。
Underneath that, it’s, like, Chernobyl, which is this nuclear power plant that melted down.
在它的下面，就像切尔诺贝利一样，这是一座熔化的核电站。
27:53 I feel like the bureaucracy needs politeness and civility, and paperwork to function, and then atrocities can happen underneath that.
我觉得官僚机构需要礼貌和文明，需要文书工作才能发挥作用，然后在这之下就会发生暴行。
28:13 So, everybody, people in power, with a smile on their face can just do horrific things, and then give propaganda that, “Look, it’s rainbows and sunshine, and unicorns.”
所以，每个人，当权者，脸上都带着微笑，可以做可怕的事情，然后进行宣传，“看，这是彩虹、阳光和独角兽。”
28:27 Yeah.
是的。
So, people that are rude, and I’m starting to awaken to this a little bit, like, you need a little …
所以，那些粗鲁的人，我开始意识到这一点，比如，你需要一点……
Like, Tom Waits says, “I like my town with a little drop of poison.” You need some poison, some swearing, some meanness, some bullshit, some intensity to shake up a system, because when it converges towards this polite bureaucracy, the atrocities can happen and hidden away.
汤姆·威茨说，“我喜欢我的小镇，里面有一点点毒药。”你需要一些毒药，一些咒骂，一些卑鄙，一些废话，一些强度来撼动一个系统，因为当它向这个礼貌的官僚机构汇聚时，暴行可能会发生并被隐藏起来。
And what’s probably the most terrifying to me is that that politeness is just theatrical whereas it emulates the respect that we would normally give each other in society if we were healthy and functional.
对我来说最可怕的可能是，这种礼貌只是戏剧性的，而它模仿的是我们在社会上如果我们健康且正常的话通常会给予彼此的尊重。
What was the process of writing that song?
那首歌的创作过程是怎样的？
29:10 It really spoke to the pain and the anger of millions of people.
它确实道出了数百万人的痛苦和愤怒。
There was magic there.
那里有魔法。
How many edits?
有多少编辑？
How many lines did you write?
你写了多少行？
Were there any lines that you were tormented by?
有没有哪句台词让你感到煎熬？
Haunted by?
被困扰？
Come back, “Should I do it this way or this way?
回过头来，“我应该这样做还是这样？
Or that?”
还是那个？
Do you have a …
你有没有……
29:33 I don’t know.
我不知道。
Can you pull a TikTok up on this?
你能把这个放在 TikTok 上吗？
If you go to my page, so, if you go to-
如果你访问我的页面，那么，如果你访问-
Chickens-
鸡-
Yeah.
是的。
29:41 Go down, pre-Richmond, you can see the original version of Richmond where I put it up.
往下走，在里士满之前，你可以看到我把它放在里士满的原始版本。
This is so cool to see the evolution.
看到这种演变真是太酷了。
There it is.
就在那里。
29:48 Okay.
好的。
If you play that, that’s-
如果你玩这个，那就是——
I have too many unfinished songs?
我还有太多未完成的歌曲？
Yeah.
是的。
29:53 Play that.
玩那个。
Click that and play it.
单击它并播放它。
I would sell my soul-
我愿意出卖我的灵魂——
724.
724.
Oh, wow.
哦，哇。
…
……
30:01 for bullshit pay.
为了废话的报酬。
Wow.
哇。
So, I can sit out here, waste my life away, drive back home to drink my troubles away.
所以，我可以坐在这里，浪费我的生命，开车回家，喝掉我的烦恼。
And if you read through this, it’s so funny.
如果你读完这篇文章，就会发现这很有趣。
30:12 Everybody’s like, “You’re about to blow up.”
每个人都会说：“你快要爆炸了。”
What the world’s gotten to for people like me-
这个世界对我这样的人来说是怎样的——
That’s all I had.
这就是我所拥有的一切。
…
……
30:15 for people like you.
对于像你这样的人。
So, I had just that.
所以，我就这样了。
“You should probably finish this one.
“你也许应该完成这个。
30:25 Might be real popular.” That’s a post from a few days later.
可能真的很受欢迎。”这是几天后的帖子。
That was in July.
那是在七月。
Oh, fuck.
哦，操。
30:34 That’s so inspiring, man.
这太鼓舞人心了，伙计。
So, that’s what I had.
所以，这就是我所拥有的。
That’s so inspiring.
这太鼓舞人心了。
30:37 That’s what?
那是什么？
A couple weeks before you posted the final-
在你发布决赛前几周——
Well, that’s all I had.
好吧，这就是我所拥有的一切。
30:44 Yeah.
是的。
That’s all I had written at that point.
这就是我当时写的全部内容。
In my mind, that’s the inspiration for the song was that little bit, and I wrote that just because I was on job sites all day, and going into all these just terrible places to work, dealing with different contractors and stuff.
在我看来，这首歌的灵感就是那么一点点，我写这首歌只是因为我整天都在工作现场，进入所有这些可怕的工作场所，与不同的承包商和东西打交道。
31:03 You were talking about wanting to go and talk to blue collar people, and that’s what I did for work, basically, for eight years was build long-term relationships with people in blue collar.
你说的是想去和蓝领人士交谈，这就是我在工作中所做的，基本上，八年来就是与蓝领人士建立长期关系。
I was in the industrial space.
我在工业领域。
So, sometimes I’d talk to 20 different people a day.
所以，有时我一天会和 20 个不同的人交谈。
31:17 When you sit in a job site trailer, and talk to a group of dudes and you’re not there with some news camera, you’re just there as a random dude, you hear so much about what really goes on behind the scenes of the structure, of what builds this country, and keeps it going, and I think that’s probably what it was.
当你坐在工作现场的拖车里，与一群人交谈时，你并没有带着新闻摄像机，你只是作为一个随机的人在那里，你会听到很多关于建筑幕后真正发生的事情，关于是什么建设了这个国家，并让它继续下去，我想这可能就是这样。
It was how I felt, but also how I guess a lot of other …
这是我的感受，也是我猜测很多其他人的感受……
31:41 I don’t know.
我不知道。
It just seemed like the truth.
这看起来像是事实。
And so, you jotted down even to the details, in a notebook?
所以，你甚至在笔记本上记下了细节？
31:43 Like, those words.
就像，那些话。
No.
不。
31:48 It’s always just on my phone.
它总是在我的手机上。
I would just keep recording.
我只会继续记录。
I would just keep …
我只会保留……
31:55 So, if you were to go back to TikTok and look at any of those original videos …
所以，如果你回到 TikTok 并观看这些原创视频……
So, like, the songs that ended up charting, let’s say, like, the ones that were on there that charted with Richmond, like this, I’ve Got To Get Sober.
所以，就像那些最终进入排行榜的歌曲，比如那些与里士满一起上榜的歌曲，就像这首《我必须清醒》。
So, literally-
所以，从字面上看——
That’s a good song.
这是一首好歌。
32:13 Yeah.
是的。
So, literally, what I did was this video I took at my property.
所以，从字面上看，我所做的是在我的房子里拍摄的这段视频。
This is my carport where my camper was.
这是我的露营车所在的车库。
And I took this video, I went to some sketchy virus-ridden MP3 to WAV file …
我拍了这段视频，我把一些粗略的、充满病毒的 MP3 转为 WAV 文件……
Or MP4 to WAV file transfer thing.
或者 MP4 到 WAV 文件传输的事情。
I would rip the audio off of this video, put this on TikTok, and then put that on [inaudible 00:32:33].
我会撕下该视频的音频，将其放在 TikTok 上，然后将其放在 [听不清 00:32:33] 上。
And that was the song.
这就是那首歌。
32:35 But, basically, like, this would have been the first time I played I’ve Got To Get Sober all the way through.
但是，基本上，这将是我第一次玩《我必须保持清醒》。
Like, I would just keep writing it, and working on it, and writing it, and recording myself.
就像，我会继续写它，努力写它，然后记录自己。
And maybe I would record myself 30 times over the period of two months.
也许我会在两个月内给自己录音30次。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
Oh, but when you say writing, you mean in your head?
哦，但是当你说写作时，你的意思是在你的脑海里吗？
32:48 Not actually typed out, or written-
实际上并没有打印出来，或者写下来——
Right.
对。
32:53 It was just video.
这只是视频。
…
……
in a way.
在某种程度上。
It was mostly just video.
大部分只是视频。
Over and over it was just videos.
一遍又一遍地只是视频。
I was just trying to figure out how to make it …
我只是想弄清楚如何做到这一点......
32:56 Yeah.
是的。
But that’s what all these …
但这就是所有这些……
Like, the audio file from all these videos is what ended up on Spotify and all that.
比如，所有这些视频的音频文件最终都会出现在 Spotify 等网站上。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
It’s cool to see these videos before you blew up.
在你爆炸之前看到这些视频真是太酷了。
33:07 So, this is a good song.
所以，这是一首好歌。
You’re playing …
你正在玩……
What is this?
这是什么？
Yeah.
是的。
33:16 These were all-
这些都是——
“Don’t sell your soul, brother.
“别出卖你的灵魂，兄弟。
33:19 This is the best music I’ve heard in a long time.” That’s a comment before you blew up.
这是我很长时间以来听过的最好的音乐。”这是你爆之前的评论。
Yeah.
是的。
33:26 Yeah.
是的。
I think I had about 10,000 followers, or something.
我想我大概有 10,000 名粉丝，或者其他什么。
…
……
33:31 on just getting by.
刚刚过去。
What a fucking song.
多么他妈的一首歌啊。
33:33 That’s a good on.
这很好。
And you’ve got to think, like, this was …
你必须想，就像，这是……
33:37 Like, that was when I quit drinking.
就像，那是我戒酒的时候。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
But the troubles and the sin of the world that we’re in knock me back off of my feet.
但我们所处的世界的麻烦和罪恶让我跌倒了。
So, that’s coming right from your heart right there.
所以，这是发自内心的。
33:56 I just imagine the thousands of people you helped with that.
我只是想象你为此帮助了成千上万的人。
I don’t know how it’s going to go-
我不知道事情会怎样-
Yeah.
是的。
…
……
34:14 but it ain’t going to happen tonight.
但这不会发生在今晚。
So, pour mine strong until I drown.
所以，把我的倒得很浓，直到我淹死。
34:21 And if I wake up tomorrow, and that sun comes back around, I’ll be wishing I was sober.
如果我明天醒来，太阳又回来了，我会希望自己是清醒的。
It’s so crazy how those cicadas and stuff come in.
那些蝉之类的东西是怎么进来的真是太疯狂了。
34:34 I just felt like it was a God-
我只是觉得那是一个神——
Yeah.
是的。
…
……
34:41 I don’t know how to-
我不知道如何-
Yeah.
是的。
Like, that’s just off my phone.
就像，那是我手机上的。
34:43 All that stuff is just there.
所有这些东西就在那里。
You know?
你知道？
They’ve been saving my soul from the pain that the world’s put on me.
他们一直在拯救我的灵魂，使其免于世界给我带来的痛苦。
34:54 And Lord, I know that upstairs there’s an old man who cares and one day he’ll-
主啊，我知道楼上有一位关心此事的老人，有一天他会——
35:03 …
……
man who cares and one day he’ll set me free.
一个关心我的人，有一天他会让我自由。
35:07 I’ll go on a whim, start writing the hymn.
我会突发奇想，开始写赞美诗。
That’s a genius of song.
这是一个天才的歌曲。
35:12 That’s genius, brother.
这真是天才，兄弟。
It’s genius.
这是天才。
It’s just crazy to think about …
想想真是疯狂……
And what’s this one right before?
而之前的这个是什么？
35:20 What is this?
这是什么？
Yeah, so that’s private …
是的，所以这是私人的……
And this is a nice recording.
这是一个很好的录音。
35:29 Got it.
知道了。
Yeah, so this video got uploaded and then Draven from Radio WV would’ve gotten a hold of me in between this and that.
是的，所以这个视频被上传了，然后来自西弗吉尼亚州广播电台的德莱文就会在这个和那个之间抓住我。
35:31 He watched this and was like, “Dude,” he said, we got to record that one.” And so I didn’t have it all …
他看了这个然后说，“伙计，”他说，我们得录下来。”所以我并没有拥有这一切……
I just had whatever was in that video is all I had written.
我只知道视频中的内容就是我写的。
I think it was just the chorus in the first verse.
我认为这只是第一节中的副歌部分。
Draven saw that video …
德莱文看到了那个视频……
And said, “We got to do this one.”
并说：“我们必须做这件事。”
Reach out to me to record.
联系我来录音。
35:55 And he’s like, “Yeah.” He’s like, “No, we got to do that one.” And I was like, ” Dude, that’s all I got.”
他说：“是的。”他说：“不，我们必须这么做。”我当时想，“伙计，这就是我所得到的。”
Tell me about that guy.
告诉我关于那个人的事。
36:01 Draven.
德莱文。
He’s probably my best friend now.
他现在可能是我最好的朋友了。
36:05 We hit it off with this, and we’re like brothers now, I guess, but-
我们一拍即合，我想我们现在就像兄弟一样，但是——
Can you talk about what he’s doing for music in general, for country music, for discovering talent for …
你能谈谈他为音乐、乡村音乐、发现人才所做的事情吗……
36:11 He clearly sees something in people.
他清楚地看到了人们身上的某些东西。
Yeah, he’s a little bit younger than I am, and he wrote music and played, and he’s got some of his …
是的，他比我年轻一点，他写音乐、演奏音乐，而且他有一些……
36:21 If you look up Draven Riffe, he’s going to kill me for even saying this, but he’s got some pretty …
如果你查一下 Draven Riffe，他会因为我这么说而杀了我，但他有一些漂亮的……
Dude, if he was like a pop singer, he would be …
老兄，如果他像流行歌手一样，他会……
He can write the most catchy stuff ever.
他可以写出有史以来最吸引人的东西。
Let’s go.
我们走吧。
Yeah, so click on, I don’t know.
是的，所以点击，我不知道。
Bye-Bye.
再见。
There you go.
就这样吧。
36:42 All right.
好吧。
That’s him?
是他吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Where’s this from?
这是哪里来的？
36:54 Five years ago.
五年前。
I was feeling on the way.
我在路上感觉。
36:58 I was 10 years old, walking underneath the blanket of West Virginia snow.
那年我十岁，走在西弗吉尼亚州的雪毯下。
37:05 Then walked right by no trespass sign.
然后沿着禁止入内标志向右走。
37:09 And the grass look greener across the property line.
地产界线那边的草看起来更绿了。
37:12 Bye bye.
再见。
Bye bye.
再见。
Bye bye.
再见。
37:13 Bye bye.
再见。
He could probably do, if he does …
如果他愿意的话，他也许可以做到……
37:16 He could probably be real famous.
他可能真的很有名。
He’s got a certain look.
他有一种特定的外表。
That dude will sit there and and he’ll just …
那家伙会坐在那里，然后他就会……
37:24 We’ll just be sitting there at 2:00 in the morning, and he’ll just all of a sudden do this little thing and he’s got the most amazing first part of this song.
我们会在凌晨 2:00 坐在那里，他会突然做这件小事，然后他就完成了这首歌最令人惊叹的第一部分。
We just started to co-write together in the last few months.
过去几个月我们才开始共同写作。
So I’m really excited for that.
所以我对此感到非常兴奋。
But if you go to his …
但如果你去他的……
This is really funny too.
这也实在是太搞笑了。
I’m sorry Draven …
对不起，德莱文……
I love you, man.
我爱你，伙计。
So go to videos and go to oldest first.
因此，查看视频并首先查看最旧的视频。
This is what’s so awesome about Draven.
这就是 Draven 的伟大之处。
37:47 He was originally working for this lady who was trying to develop different types of hair care products, but he thought the market was too saturated.
他原本为这位试图开发不同类型护发产品的女士工作，但他认为市场过于饱和。
So he was going to get into beard oil.
所以他打算涉足胡须油领域。
So he created Radio WV as like a fake plug page for his Burley Boy beard brand he was working with.
因此，他创建了 Radio WV，就像他正在合作的 Burley Boy 胡须品牌的假冒插页一样。
So if you look at, yeah that very first video.
所以如果你看一下，是的，第一个视频。
Yeah.
是的。
It’s got all his beard products and if you look, there’s multiple ones like that.
里面有他所有的胡须产品，如果你看的话，有很多这样的产品。
38:10 So he started it just to do this beard thing with, and then …
所以他开始只是为了做胡子的事情，然后……
I don’t know, he just kind of felt called to keep going with it and it just naturally progressed from that.
我不知道，他只是觉得自己被召唤去继续下去，一切就自然而然地发展了。
Yeah, that too is inspiring.
是的，这也很鼓舞人心。
38:24 You start out one way and then you discover something real special.
你从一种方式开始，然后你会发现一些真正特别的东西。
I mean, he’s got an eye for how to bring out …
我的意思是，他有一双慧眼，知道如何展现……
I don’t know what it is, both the audio side and the video side, how to bring out the best in a person.
我不知道这是什么，无论是音频方面还是视频方面，如何发挥出一个人最好的一面。
He says he just wants it to sound like the way he likes hearing it, which makes sense.
他说他只是想让它听起来像他喜欢听的那样，这是有道理的。
38:39 It’s in the same way talking about when we were talking about setting the cameras up, and a professional would tell you you needed three lights and you’re like, “Well, I think it would work with …” He’s just like, “Well, it’ll just work like this.”
这与我们谈论设置相机时的情况相同，专业人士会告诉你你需要三个灯，你会说，“好吧，我认为它可以与……一起使用。”他只是说，“好吧，它就像这样工作。”
And do it in a way where he likes it.
并且以他喜欢的方式去做。
38:54 Yeah, just do it for yourself.
是啊，就为自己做吧。
He does it because he loves it, and it shows.
他这样做是因为他喜欢它，这一点也表明了这一点。
Yeah, you can see it in there, and there’s some good talent.
是的，你可以在那里看到它，并且有一些优秀的人才。
39:00 You were showing me this new lady, Gabrielle.
你正在向我展示这位新女士，加布里埃尔。
Yeah, she’s got it.
是的，她明白了。
39:05 But not a lot of people would record her doing that song, but he’s like, “I don’t know, it just was different.
但没有多少人会录下她唱那首歌，但他说，“我不知道，只是不一样。
I just thought people ought to hear it.” But man, it was a blessing that he came along when he did.
我只是认为人们应该听到它。”但是，伙计，当他这样做时，他的出现真是一件幸事。
It really changed both of our lives.
它确实改变了我们俩的生活。
We got to talk about that.
我们得谈谈这个。
39:20 So you posted the song Rich Men North of Richmond on August 8, 2023.
所以您于 2023 年 8 月 8 日发布了歌曲 Rich Men North of Richmond。
I remember I was at work that day when it went up.
我记得那天上涨时我正在上班。
39:27 Yeah.
是的。
So it blew the fuck up, straight to number one on the charts.
就这样，它一炮而红，直接登上了排行榜第一名。
39:30 Tens of millions of views and listens.
数以千万计的观看和收听。
And a few days later on August 17th, you made a post that I thought was pretty gangster.
几天后的 8 月 17 日，你发了一篇我认为很黑帮的帖子。
It was beautiful and gangster.
它既美丽又流氓。
So one of the things you said is, “It’s been difficult as I through the 50,000-plus messages and emails I’ve received in the last week.
所以你说的其中一件事是，“当我处理上周收到的 50,000 多条消息和电子邮件时，这很困难。
The stories that have been shared paint a brutally honest picture.
所分享的故事描绘了一幅残酷而诚实的画面。
Suicide, addiction, unemployment, anxiety, depression, hopelessness, and the list goes on.”
自杀、成瘾、失业、焦虑、抑郁、绝望，这样的例子不胜枚举。”
40:06 And then you went on to write “People in the music industry give me blank stares when I brush off $8 million offers.
然后你接着写道：“当我拒绝 800 万美元的报价时，音乐界的人们都茫然地看着我。
I don’t want six tour buses, 15 tractor trailers and a jet.
我不想要六辆旅游巴士、15 辆牵引拖车和一架喷气式飞机。
I don’t want to play stadium shows.
我不想参加体育场表演。
I don’t want to be in the spotlight.
我不想成为众人瞩目的焦点。
I wrote the music I wrote because I was suffering with mental health and depression.
我写这些音乐是因为我患有心理健康和抑郁症。
These songs have connected with millions of people on such a deep level because they’ve been sung by someone feeling the words in the very moment they were being sung.
这些歌曲与数百万人有着如此深刻的联系，因为它们是由在演唱的那一刻感受到歌词的人演唱的。
No editing, no agent, no bullshit.
没有编辑，没有经纪人，没有废话。
Just somebody and his guitar.
只有某人和他的吉他。
The style of music that we should have never gotten away from in the first place.”
我们从一开始就不应该摆脱这种音乐风格。”
40:48 So huge props for that, for walking away from lucrative multi-million dollar record deals, and I’m sure the money that was just coming your way.
如此巨大的支持，放弃利润丰厚的数百万美元唱片交易，我确信这笔钱即将到来。
Huge props.
巨大的道具。
Moments happen where the world tests you, and integrity is what you do in those moments.
世界考验你的时刻会发生，而正直就是你在这些时刻所做的事情。
So huge props for that.
为此提供了巨大的支持。
What was your philosophy?
你的哲学是什么？
What was your thinking behind that?
你的想法是什么？
It was all those messages I got.
这就是我收到的所有消息。
41:15 I mean, you can see it in the comment sections of a lot of the videos after everything happened.
我的意思是，事情发生后，你可以在很多视频的评论部分看到它。
But people just felt this spark like, “Wow, maybe we actually have a chance to …” Maybe we actually do have some kind of power.
但人们只是感觉到这种火花，“哇，也许我们真的有机会……”也许我们确实拥有某种力量。
Those people put that song there, nobody else, and gave me the opportunity to make, even without signing anything, I was still able to make millions of dollars and have financial freedom and …
那些人把那首歌放在那里，没有其他人，给了我机会，即使没有签署任何东西，我仍然能够赚到数百万美元并拥有财务自由......
I felt like if I was going to do anything like that, that I’d be betraying …
我觉得如果我要做那样的事，我就会背叛……
I would be taking those people and almost betraying them somehow.
我会带着这些人，几乎以某种方式背叛他们。
I hate the big machine just like everybody else, and the last thing I’d want to do is ever support it or be a part of it.
我和其他人一样讨厌这台大机器，我最不想做的就是支持它或成为它的一部分。
I want to watch it crash and burn.
我想看着它崩溃并燃烧。
See, this is the really important thing is whether it’s betrayal or not, we’ll never know.
看，这才是真正重要的事情，无论是否背叛，我们永远不会知道。
42:10 But you felt that it was and to have the integrity to walk away from the bag of money when you felt that way.
但当你有这种感觉时，你就会觉得是这样，并且有正直的态度离开那袋钱。
That’s fucking epic.
这真是史诗般的。
It was also, you got to think a couple months before this, of course I had a wife and kids that I loved, and I had a lot of really important things to live for, but I didn’t have a whole lot to lose.
而且，你必须想一想，在此之前的几个月，我当然有我爱的妻子和孩子，我有很多非常重要的东西要活下去，但我并没有太多可失去的。
42:28 None of this was even really real.
这一切都不是真实的。
I didn’t care about that.
我不在乎这个。
I didn’t care to lose this just as quick as I got it.
我不想像得到它一样快地失去它。
This didn’t mean anything to me.
这对我来说没有任何意义。
It just meant something to me that I could do something for.
这对我来说只是意味着我可以为之做点什么。
It’s like even if I’m not smart enough to figure out how to fix some of my own problems in my life, the fact that I felt like I could help fix somebody else’s, that meant hell of a lot more to me than any …
就像即使我不够聪明，无法弄清楚如何解决生活中自己的一些问题，但事实上，我觉得我可以帮助解决别人的问题，这对我来说比任何人都意味着更多……
That’s what I didn’t want to lose.
这就是我不想失去的。
I didn’t want to lose those people’s trust or feel …
我不想失去那些人的信任或感觉……
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思吗？
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊，是啊。
And so I’ve just tried to make every decision around as best as I can, what I think the right thing is to do and who knows what the hell the right thing is to do, but I just try to follow …
所以我只是尽我所能地做出每一个决定，我认为正确的事情是什么，谁知道到底什么是正确的事情，但我只是尝试遵循......
43:12 We all have that little voice in us like that.
我们内心都有这样的小声音。
We all have some, and I think sometimes we mask.
我们都有一些，我想有时我们会掩盖。
It’s hard for us to listen to that little voice, whether it’s our gluttony or our lust or we numb ourselves with medications or with alcohol, or we scroll on YouTube for four hours a night and instead of …
我们很难倾听那个微小的声音，无论是我们的暴食、欲望，还是我们用药物或酒精麻痹自己，或者我们每晚在 YouTube 上滚动四个小时，而不是……
because we don’t want to listen to our conscience.
因为我们不想听从自己的良心。
But there is this very intelligent discerning thing inside of us that’s able to tell us what’s right and wrong, and it’s a spiritual thing I guess, and I just try to listen to that when I can.
但我们内心有一种非常聪明、有洞察力的东西，它能够告诉我们什么是对的，什么是错的，我想这是一种精神上的东西，我只是在可能的时候尝试倾听它。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
I just still feel like I haven’t done enough.
我只是还是觉得自己做得还不够。
I think you did a lot.
我想你做了很多。
44:05 I think you did a lot.
我想你做了很多。
I think you’re an inspiration.
我认为你是一个灵感。
You have helped a huge number of people and you’re also an inspiration to the other side of it, which is the artists and just to humans to have integrity.
你帮助了很多人，你也激励了另一面，即艺术家和人类保持正直。
I don’t think people realize how much of a test of integrity fame, money, power also is.
我认为人们没有意识到名誉、金钱、权力对诚信的考验有多大。
Rogan and I talk about this quite a bit.
罗根和我对此谈了很多。
We get to see, I mean Joe especially, but I’ve had a bit of the same, you get to see people become famous, and you get to see how they deal with that, and it’s not easy.
我们会看到，我尤其是乔，但我也经历过一些同样的事情，你会看到人们成名，你会看到他们如何处理这个问题，这并不容易。
A lot of people will sell themselves a bit, sell the soul a bit, give away a bit of their integrity of the spirit that made them who they are.
很多人会出卖一点自己，出卖一点灵魂，放弃一点造就他们的精神的正直。
You get caught up in the wave of it and so to keep holding onto that, that’s a powerful thing.
你会陷入它的浪潮中，所以要继续坚持下去，这是一件很强大的事情。
That’s a really powerful thing.
这是一件非常强大的事情。
Yeah, that’s all I got though.
是的，这就是我所得到的。
45:07 When you lose that, what the hell are you?
当你失去了它，你到底是什么？
And you see it.
你看到了。
You see these celebrity people that just fall off the …
你看到这些名人刚刚从......
They go off the deep end.
他们走出了深渊。
You have to have something in your life to keep you centered and to keep you your whole perception of reality.
你的生活中必须有一些东西可以让你保持中心并保持你对现实的整体感知。
And your just existence and reality as all contention upon this center that you exist in and you have to …
你正义的存在和现实作为你存在的这个中心的所有争论，你必须……
if you don’t have that, then you’re just flying through …
如果你没有，那么你只是飞过……
I mean, we’re all just riding on this rock that’s going who knows how fast.
我的意思是，我们都只是骑在这块岩石上，谁知道它的速度有多快。
You said something I think to Jaco that I really liked.
我认为你对雅科说了一些我非常喜欢的话。
45:41 “Everything that has purpose behind it comes with risk.” So in that moment, I mean you’re taking a hell of a risk.
“一切有目的的事情都伴随着风险。”所以在那一刻，我的意思是你正在冒很大的风险。
I was terrified.
我很害怕。
45:56 I talked about this a little bit with him too, but I was terrified to even put the song out.
我也和他谈过这个问题，但我什至不敢把这首歌放出来。
I knew I was going to be the subject of scrutiny and judgment, and I knew people were going to …
我知道我将成为审查和判断的对象，我知道人们会……
I knew all that was going to happen.
我知道这一切将会发生。
I was going back to that talking about crowds, to stand in front of thousands of people and everybody be in some sense of unity.
我回到了谈论人群的话题，站在成千上万的人面前，每个人都有某种团结感。
A lot of times when I end the shows, I’ll always end with this statement that just says, “No matter what, no matter how you feel when you go online, everyone feels so small and insignificant and powerless.” But I just say, “No matter how they make you feel online or when you turn on the TV or when you look at polling numbers or whatever, when you just look at all this trash that we digest every day, there will always be more of us than them.” And all that.
很多时候，当我结束节目时，我总是会以这样一句话结束：“无论怎样，无论你上网时的感受如何，每个人都感到如此渺小、微不足道和无能为力。”但我只是说，“无论他们让你在网上感觉如何，或者当你打开电视，或者当你查看民意调查数字或其他什么时，当你看看我们每天消化的所有这些垃圾时，我们总是比他们更多。”还有这一切。
46:52 But just to see the light in people’s eyes when you say that, but the truth is, and it’s like who is us and who is them?
但当你这么说时，只是看看人们眼中的光芒，但事实是，就像谁是我们，谁是他们？
And it’s us just represents humanity and all the things we talked about so far.
我们只是代表了人性以及我们迄今为止所谈论的所有事情。
Just the fire and the chaos, but also the love and just life.
只有火焰和混乱，也有爱和正义的生活。
Life is just such a crazy complicated, beautiful, disastrous thing.
生活就是这么疯狂复杂、美丽却又灾难性的事情。
And then them is like it is.
然后他们就这样了。
It’s the power structure.
这就是权力结构。
It’s that same terrible side of us that created things like the Soviet Union and is ultimately what’s created this monster that we all live under today, which now doesn’t just exist within the confines of the Soviet Union, but seems to almost be a global epidemic.
正是我们可怕的一面创造了像苏联这样的东西，并最终创造了我们今天生活在其之下的这个怪物，它现在不仅存在于苏联的范围内，而且似乎几乎成为一种全球性的流行病。
And then that song became the rebel call against that, against the power structures that creates that.
然后这首歌成为反对这一点、反对创造它的权力结构的反叛号召。
Yeah.
是的。
47:48 It’s like how much fire am I willing to play with?
就像我愿意玩多少火？
Because I know at some point I am going to get burned from it.
因为我知道在某些时候我会因此而被烧伤。
I just pray a lot that God …
我只是经常祈祷上帝……
I don’t have a lot of self-worth in myself anyway, so I don’t really care what they say or do to me or I don’t care.
无论如何，我自己没有太多的自我价值，所以我不太关心他们对我说什么或做什么，或者我不在乎。
I don’t even care if I die, whatever.
我什至不在乎我是否会死，无论如何。
Just protect the people I love is all.
只要保护我爱的人就够了。
That’s all I ask of God.
这就是我向上帝所求的一切。
48:09 I have this dream of just creating this parallel system that sits beside all these stupid systems that we live under that are all engulfed in this thing that we talked about at the beginning.
我有一个梦想，就是创建一个并行系统，它位于我们生活的所有这些愚蠢的系统旁边，这些系统都被我们一开始谈到的事情所吞没。
This type of structure.
这种类型的结构。
We’re all just robots.
我们都只是机器人。
And it’s like if we hate the way music is, and all these artists are complaining about the way the venues are monopolized and the ticket sales monopolize, then let’s just go find other places to play music, because so many people hungry for music in places that don’t ever get it.
就好像如果我们讨厌音乐的样子，而所有这些艺术家都在抱怨场地被垄断、门票销售被垄断，那么我们就去找其他播放音乐的地方吧，因为很多人在那些永远得不到音乐的地方渴望音乐。
48:40 And if you look at it, there’s so many passionate people that are fighting all these different causes.
如果你仔细观察，就会发现有很多充满激情的人正在为所有这些不同的事业而奋斗。
Just in food.
就在食物里。
It’s the word they use for more or less starvation.
他们用这个词来形容或多或少的饥饿。
It’s a more polite, it’s called food insecurity.
更客气一点，叫食品不安全。
But if you look up just in Virginia, just where I live in Virginia in the rural areas, how much food insecurity there is and how many empty vacant farms there are.
但如果你看看弗吉尼亚州，就在我住在弗吉尼亚州的农村地区，那里有多少粮食不安全状况，有多少空置的农场。
It’s like this is an obvious problem that we should be on Twitter talking about non-stop.
就好像这是一个显而易见的问题，我们应该在推特上不停地讨论。
Everyone has to eat.
每个人都得吃饭。
It don’t matter what you vote for or what you look like or any of that crap.
你投票支持什么、你长得什么样或任何诸如此类的事情都不重要。
49:18 Why are we living in a country where where half of us are obese and eating shit food and don’t know any better, and then the other half of us don’t have …
为什么我们生活在一个一半人肥胖、吃狗屎食物、不知道更好的国家，而另一半却没有……
It’s lack of leadership that’s caused dysfunction.
缺乏领导力导致了功能失调。
And so if we’re tired of that, then let’s just fix it.
因此，如果我们对此感到厌倦，那就修复它吧。
We don’t need anybody’s permission.
我们不需要任何人的许可。
That’s the whole beauty of what America is.
这就是美国的全部魅力。
We don’t need some greasy-haired corporate schmuck to give us permission to go fix all these things that are wrong.
我们不需要一些头发油腻的公司傻瓜来允许我们修复所有这些错误的事情。
Let’s just go do it.
我们就去做吧。
And if they don’t like it, fuck them.
如果他们不喜欢，那就操他们。
In all domains of life from food to the music industry, honestly to education, also to government itself, all of it.
在生活的各个领域，从食品到音乐产业，从诚实到教育，还有政府本身，所有这些。
49:50 Your music is also just the soundtrack to that spirit that makes America great, of just constantly trying to revitalize itself.
你们的音乐也是让美国变得伟大、不断努力振兴自身的精神的配乐。
When the bullshit piles up a little too high, there’s that revolutionary spirit that says we need to fix this shit.
当废话堆积得太多时，就会有一种革命精神说我们需要解决这个问题。
And that inspiration that created this country was from years of people living under tyranny.
创建这个国家的灵感来自于多年生活在暴政下的人们。
50:24 We forget the story of the people who really created this country.
我们忘记了真正创造这个国家的人们的故事。
It’s funny.
这很有趣。
One of the statements I made at the very beginning that got taken way out of context, but I wasn’t in a position to even begin to have a conversation about it, is I made this comment early on at one of the shows about how our diversity is a strength, but that term has been hijacked now to mean something a lot different than what it really means.
我一开始发表的言论之一被断章取义，但我什至无法开始对此进行对话，那就是我早些时候在一个节目中发表了关于我们的多样性如何是一种优势的评论，但这个词现在已被劫持，其含义与它的真正含义有很大不同。
50:52 But it’s like think about how many different people came together just at the founding of this country.
但这就像想想在这个国家刚成立时有多少不同的人聚集在一起。
People who spoke different languages, different cultures, religions, ways of thinking.
人们说着不同的语言、不同的文化、宗教、思维方式。
So many different people came together to even create this place now, and we’ve just forgotten about all that.
现在有这么多不同的人聚集在一起创造了这个地方，而我们却忘记了这一切。
They didn’t all come here because they wanted to ride on some miserable boat ride and risk their whole lives to live in some crazy jungle essentially that had no structure, no infrastructure, no medicine.
他们来到这里并不是因为他们想乘坐一些悲惨的船，冒着一生的风险生活在一个疯狂的丛林里，那里基本上没有任何结构，没有基础设施，没有药物。
They didn’t come here for some glorified camping trip.
他们来这里并不是为了一些光荣的露营旅行。
It’s because they were tired of generations of being persecuted and living under tyranny and not being allowed to practice their …
这是因为他们厌倦了几代人遭受迫害和生活在暴政下，并且不被允许实践他们的……
51:27 It’s not like they wanted freedom of religion and they didn’t want separation of church and state because they were a bunch of goody two-shoes and they love going to church every Sunday.
这并不是说他们想要宗教自由，也不想政教分离，因为他们是一群两双鞋，喜欢每个星期天去教堂。
It’s because they weren’t allowed to believe in what they believed in because some asshole king or some hierarchy told them they couldn’t, and they were just tired of it.
这是因为他们不被允许相信他们所相信的东西，因为一些混蛋国王或一些等级制度告诉他们不能，他们只是厌倦了它。
That’s what we’re losing now, is we’ve forgotten that we’re those people.
这就是我们现在失去的，我们忘记了我们就是那些人。
The same structures that have plagued this country are …
困扰这个国家的相同结构是……
they’re multinational corporations and it’s just the ideology behind them, and their structure is what the problem is.
他们是跨国公司，这只是他们背后的意识形态，他们的结构才是问题所在。
Yeah, I mean it’s multinational corporations.
是的，我的意思是跨国公司。
51:56 It’s nation states that are deeply corrupt and are authoritarian and ultimately abuse power and yes, create elements of tyranny.
民族国家是深度腐败和专制的，最终滥用权力，是的，创造了暴政的元素。
And from that, the human spirit rises.
人类精神由此崛起。
Like I said, with songs like the ones you Write or at the founding in this country, that’s why all this diverse outcasts come together and write something as crazy as all men are created equal.
就像我说的，像你写的歌或在这个国家建国时写的歌，这就是为什么所有这些不同的被遗弃者聚集在一起，写出一些像人人生而平等的疯狂歌曲。
What a gangster line.
真是强盗路线啊。
I guess not an easy thing.
我想这不是一件容易的事。
We take a lot of that stuff for granted now, but that’s not an easy thing to come up with.
我们现在认为很多这样的东西是理所当然的，但这并不是一件容易想出来的事情。
That’s a really gutsy thing, to see the value in all people equally.
平等地看到所有人的价值，这真是一件勇敢的事情。
And of course they also were suffering from delusion.
当然，他们也受到了妄想的困扰。
They didn’t see Black people as equal.
他们不认为黑人是平等的。
They didn’t see women as equal.
他们不认为女性是平等的。
But even that first leap of all men are created equal, that’s a gigantic fuck you to the past.
但即使是人生而平等的第一次飞跃，这对过去来说也是一个巨大的操蛋。
Taking that leap forward really took a lot in an age and a time when it probably sounded …
在一个听起来可能……的时代和时代，实现这一飞跃确实需要付出很大的努力。
53:08 and it’s not like they just made a statement and put it on Twitter.
他们并不是只是发表声明并将其放在推特上。
Think about how much …
想想有多少……
just think about the insanity.
想想这有多疯狂。
I can’t even conceptualize the insanity of what took place from the time that …
我什至无法想象从那时起发生的事情有多么疯狂……
even from the Revolutionary War until now to try to preserve that idea.
甚至从独立战争到现在，都试图保留这个想法。
So much has happened and so much sacrifice has been made in just so many hours of labor and thought and intensity.
在这么多小时的劳动、思考和强度中，发生了这么多事情，做出了这么多牺牲。
Even the 20th century’s got two world wars, and especially in the Second World War, the United States played a very crucial role.
即使20世纪也发生过两次世界大战，特别是在第二次世界大战中，美国发挥了非常关键的作用。
53:38 And there was a lot of ideological battle of ideas going on at that time, of the role of war and peace, of the role of the United States as the center place for the ideal of human freedom and human rights.
当时，关于战争与和平的作用、美国作为人类自由和人权理想的中心地的作用等方面，正在进行大量的意识形态斗争。
We continue to innovate.
我们不断创新。
I’d love to get back to talking to blue collar people you mentioned.
我很想回去和你提到的蓝领人士交谈。
Those are some of my favorite people.
这些是我最喜欢的人。
So it was actually really cool to find out that for many years of your life, basically the way you made a living is talking to blue collar people and getting their story.
所以，发现在你生命中的许多年里，基本上你谋生的方式就是与蓝领人士交谈并了解他们的故事，这实际上真的很酷。
So I’m traveling across the world for a bit, but of course the world I love the most and I’m most curious about is the different subcultures and towns of the United States.
所以我要环游世界一段时间，但当然我最喜欢、最好奇的世界是美国不同的亚文化和城镇。
54:38 So I took a road trip across the U.S. in my early 20s for several months, and that was a transformative experience for me.
因此，我在 20 岁出头的时候进行了一次为期几个月的穿越美国的公路旅行，这对我来说是一次变革性的经历。
And that’s something, one of the luxuries I have is to have the freedom to do whatever the hell I want now.
就是这样，我现在拥有的奢侈之一就是可以自由地做我想做的任何事。
And so I want to take a road trip across the United States for several months.
所以我想进行几个月的穿越美国的公路旅行。
And one of the things I wanted to do is just to talk to people in small towns in middle America.
我想做的一件事就是与美国中部小镇的人们交谈。
I don’t know what words to put on it, but to talk to the very people that you talked about.
我不知道该用什么话来形容，但我只能和你谈到的那些人谈谈。
Construction workers, plumbers, waitresses, oil rig workers, just people that do something real, people that are real, that don’t make much money, that struggle but have as you talked about, have a richness to them.
建筑工人、水管工、女服务员、石油钻井工人，只是做真实事情的人，真实的人，赚不了多少钱，奋斗但正如你所说的那样，对他们来说是富有的。
That’s not often revealed.
这并不经常被揭露。
That’s not often talked about.
这不常被谈论。
So maybe can you speak to that, to your time with blue collar folk?
那么也许您可以谈谈您与蓝领人士相处的时间吗？
When I got all those messages, we were talking about earlier on, earlier in this, so many of them, and even now, even since …
当我收到所有这些消息时，我们早些时候、早些时候谈论过很多消息，甚至现在，甚至从那时起……
55:49 even in the last couple of days, I’ve gotten some where they start with, “Hey, I’m a nobody.” But that’s how a lot of those start.
即使在过去的几天里，我也收到了一些他们一开始就说的“嘿，我是个无名小卒”的信息。但很多都是这样开始的。
The nobodies of the world if you want to call them.
如果你想称呼他们的话，他们就是世界上的无名小卒。
It’s frustrating that the people who literally have built and preserve and maintain the structure of society that we all comfortably live in, those people have the least amount of representation.
令人沮丧的是，那些真正建立、维护和维护了我们舒适生活的社会结构的人，他们的代表权却是最少的。
They’re ignored just because of the way the social hierarchy exists.
他们仅仅因为社会等级制度的存在方式而被忽视。
But some of the most dimwitted, irrelevant, terrible people are put here and are idolized and spotlighted, and they’re all over television, and they’re all over the internet and we act like they’re kings and queens and that they’re royalty.
但一些最愚蠢、最无关紧要、最可怕的人被放在这里，被崇拜和关注，他们出现在电视上，他们出现在互联网上，我们表现得好像他们是国王和王后，他们是皇室成员。
And then all these people who do jobs that most of us will be too …
然后所有这些人所做的工作都是我们大多数人都会做的……
either wouldn’t have even the ability to do, we’d be like …
要么连能力都没有，我们就会……
How many people are going to go underwater and weld?
有多少人要去水下焊接？
57:03 But if we didn’t have underwater welders …
但如果我们没有水下焊工……
One of my best friends whose name is also Jaco, funny enough, the dude works 70, 80 hours every week.
我最好的朋友之一，他的名字也叫 Jaco，有趣的是，这家伙每周工作 70、80 个小时。
He’s on the Chesapeake Bay tunnel job now.
他现在正在切萨皮克湾隧道工作。
But the dude’s gotten up on heights that I couldn’t get on.
但这家伙已经达到了我无法达到的高度。
He’s went underground places I wouldn’t go.
他去过我不会去的地下地方。
And nobody even knows those people’s stories or what they went through or the kind of lives they lived in.
甚至没有人知道这些人的故事，他们经历过什么，或者他们过着什么样的生活。
And they’re the people who create the fabric of society, and even the waitresses and the waiters and all these factory jobs that I worked in, all those people.
他们是创造社会结构的人，甚至是女服务员和服务员以及我工作过的所有这些工厂工作，所有这些人。
Talk about the craziest place I ever worked and the craziest people I ever met was this little place called Perfect Air in Marion, North Carolina, and it was this commercial air conditioning factory, which is I think closed now.
谈论我工作过的最疯狂的地方和我见过的最疯狂的人是北卡罗来纳州马里恩的这个名为 Perfect Air 的小地方，这是一家商用空调工厂，我认为它现在已经关闭了。
But they didn’t pay very well.
但他们的报酬并不高。
And so everyone they hired was either people that had criminal backgrounds who couldn’t get jobs elsewhere or idiots who dropped out of high school and couldn’t work elsewhere, like me.
因此，他们雇用的每个人要么是有犯罪背景、无法在其他地方找到工作的人，要么是高中辍学、无法在其他地方工作的白痴，就像我一样。
57:59 And so I was 18 years old working in this place with people who were mostly in their 50s and 60s.
我当时 18 岁，在这个地方工作，同事们大多是 50 多岁和 60 多岁。
But you want to talk about being exposed to just a whole nother world of people and just the stories and just …
但你想谈论的是接触到另一个世界的人们、故事以及……
Those people are far more interesting than many of the people that we consider to be celebrities.
这些人比我们认为的名人更有趣。
Most people who are celebrities are just pretty boring and airheaded don’t really even know what real life is about.
大多数名人都非常无聊且愚蠢，甚至不知道现实生活是什么。
They’re pretty unrelatable to the rest of the world.
他们与世界其他地方完全没有关系。
And so it would be really cool.
所以这真的很酷。
I mean that’s the whole reason that I want to go out and do these shows in places that haven’t had music in them in 10 years because those people, that is America to me.
我的意思是，这就是我想要出去在十年内没有音乐的地方做这些演出的全部原因，因为那些人对我来说就是美国。
58:32 How many people in Pittsburgh have been an hour outside of Pittsburgh?
有多少人离开匹兹堡一小时就到了匹兹堡？
And even in Virginia.
甚至在弗吉尼亚州也是如此。
If you lived in northern Virginia and you drive two and a half hours Southwest, you’re in a whole nother planet.
如果您住在弗吉尼亚州北部，并且向西南方向行驶两个半小时，那么您就完全身处另一个星球了。
The people, the accents, the culture.
人民、口音、文化。
And so I feel driven in the same way.
所以我也有同样的动力。
I would love to find a way to try to bridge that cultural gap to make those people relevant because they are some of the most …
我很想找到一种方法来尝试弥合文化差距，使这些人具有相关性，因为他们是最……
And it’s funny because we emulate a lot of those people.
这很有趣，因为我们模仿了很多这样的人。
Modern country music is a bunch of people emulating those people.
现代乡村音乐是一群人模仿那些人。
And there’s also, I love people that have a skill and become masters of that skill also.
还有，我喜欢那些拥有某项技能并成为该技能大师的人。
59:05 So that element is also there, even if it’s insanely difficult work like being a miner.
所以这个因素也存在，即使这是像矿工这样极其困难的工作。
There’s skill to that.
这是有技巧的。
There’s stories there.
那里有故事。
There’s what it takes to do that.
做到这一点需要做些什么。
I mean, some of my favorite humans are engineers, and all they do is solve really hard problems and they develop.
我的意思是，我最喜欢的一些人是工程师，他们所做的就是解决真正困难的问题并不断发展。
I mean, it’s a pain in the ass, the job.
我的意思是，这份工作真是令人痛苦。
Anything in the factory is extremely difficult, but that you learn so much about what it takes to solve intricate nuanced problems in the physical world.
工厂里的任何事情都是极其困难的，但你会学到很多关于解决物理世界中错综复杂、细致入微的问题所需的知识。
Coal mining, oil rigs, like you mentioned, welding, that’s a fascinating line of work.
煤矿开采、石油钻井平台，就像你提到的，焊接，这是一项令人着迷的工作。
And those are trades that are in many cases dying because they aren’t popular in culture anymore.
这些行业在很多情况下正在消亡，因为它们在文化中不再流行。
59:51 Everything from agricultural to plumbing and electrical, it’s like those are all areas that I think if you were to go out and talk to some of those people and shed light on it, you could change the entire landscape in America of how it’s perceived and make it cool.
从农业到管道和电气，我认为这些都是领域，如果你出去与其中一些人交谈并阐明它，你可以改变美国的整个景观，让它变得很酷。
Yeah, so thank you, what you’re doing on that front.
是的，所以谢谢你在这方面所做的事情。
1:00:16 I want to say, I wrote it down.
我想说，我写下来了。
Please, if you know people that will be willing to talk out to me.
如果你认识愿意与我交谈的人，请告诉我。
A good way to do that is lexfridman.com/contact.
一个好方法是 lexfridman.com/contact。
This was another one of the things early on that I had an idea about and I thought was getting done, and it wasn’t, that I’ve got to go back and try to figure out, is doing prison shows and doing rehab shows and all that.
这是我早期就有一个想法并且认为已经完成的另一件事，但事实并非如此，我必须回去尝试弄清楚，是做监狱表演和康复表演等等。
1:00:29 But I am really intrigued with going into those places and trying to immerse myself in just the mental state that those people are in.
但我真的很感兴趣进入那些地方并试图让自己沉浸在那些人所处的精神状态中。
And it’s not talked about a whole lot, but …
这并没有被谈论很多，但是……
Also people who get out.
还有出来的人。
1:00:56 Ex-convicts.
前科犯。
I mean, that’s a hard life.
我的意思是，那是一种艰难的生活。
That’s just a hard life, to try to reintegrate back into society.
试图重新融入社会，这只是一种艰难的生活。
Yeah.
是的。
1:01:06 And a lot of those people at Perfect Air that I worked with, they almost all were in some form of legal trouble.
我在 Perfect Air 共事过的很多人，几乎都遇到了某种形式的法律麻烦。
There was a lady that worked on the assembly line beside me named Denise, and her and her husband had been manufacturing methamphetamine.
我旁边有一位在流水线上工作的女士，名叫丹尼斯，她和她的丈夫一直在生产冰毒。
And he took the fall for most of it.
而他承担了大部分的责任。
She only had to go on probation.
她只需要接受缓刑。
He was still in prison.
他还在监狱里。
But man, Denise was a very sweet lady and aside from the meth manufacturing, she was like, great.
但是丹妮丝是一位非常可爱的女士，除了冰毒制造之外，她非常棒。
And just such a character in such a good way.
就是这样一个角色，以如此好的方式。
And so it’s like, yeah, just …
所以就像是，是的，只是……
Denise, LexFriman.com/contact, let’s talk.
丹尼斯，LexFriman.com/contact，我们来谈谈。
1:01:36 I mean, yeah, both the plumbers and the coal miners and Denise with the old meth habits.
我的意思是，是的，水管工、煤矿工人和丹妮丝都有旧的冰毒习惯。
I mean, they’re walking, the line of …
我的意思是，他们正在走，排队……
Surviving is hard.
生存是困难的。
So you have to do a real hard job, and then you also have to live life, which is in general hard.
所以你必须做真正艰苦的工作，然后你还必须过生活，这通常是艰难的。
Divorce, kids, people die, you lose, medical issues, and that can destroy you completely.
离婚、孩子、人们的死亡、你的失败、医疗问题，这些都会彻底摧毁你。
All of a sudden something happens, you can’t afford it.
突然发生一些事情，你承受不起。
Then the insurance system destroys people, all of that.
然后保险系统毁掉了人们，所有这一切。
So you have to somehow navigate life while working your ass off in a real hard job.
所以你必须以某种方式驾驭生活，同时在真正艰苦的工作中拼命工作。
And those people, they have stories that’s a real pain, and from that pain, from that anger, that’s where Rich Men North of Richmond, that you could just feel their pain come through with that song and with your other work.
那些人，他们的故事是真正的痛苦，从那种痛苦，从那种愤怒，这就是里士满北部的富人，你可以通过这首歌和你的其他作品感受到他们的痛苦。
So there is a landscape of suffering.
于是就有了苦难的景象。
Yeah.
是的。
1:02:50 It doesn’t have to be that.
不一定是这样。
We don’t all have to be that decentralized either.
我们也不必都那么去中心化。
If there is that much commonality among people, which I do believe there is, just innately in suffering.
如果说人与人之间有那么多共性的话——我确实相信存在——那就是苦难与生俱来。
Yeah, there’s a guy in West Virginia that I talked to that he’s got a piece of property beside of mine that he was interested in selling, but the reason he’s got this dream of opening …
是的，我和西弗吉尼亚州的一个人谈过，他在我旁边有一块房产，他有兴趣出售，但他梦想开店的原因是……
putting some cabins there and renting them out for people to come, Airbnb.
在那里建一些小屋，然后出租给来的人，Airbnb。
He works at Lowe’s full-time, but his son’s got this, his son’s 19, and he has got this heart surgery he’s got to have, and so he’s trying to sell the place for that.
他在 Lowe’s 全职工作，但他的儿子得了这个，他的儿子已经 19 岁了，而且他必须接受心脏手术，所以他想为此卖掉这个地方。
And just that guy and all you’d ever see him as is the guy that works at Lowe’s pulling lumber or whatever.
你所看到的就是那个在 Lowe's 拉木材或其他什么地方工作的人。
But he’s got this very Insanely complex life he’s trying to manage.
但他正在努力应对这种极其复杂的生活。
He doesn’t want to lose his son.
他不想失去儿子。
He’s just going to sell everything.
他只想卖掉一切。
1:03:40 And at one point in time, maybe the church served that role of when people really fell off track and they didn’t have a support system and they were on this tiny bow out in the ocean.
在某个时间点，也许教会扮演了这样一个角色：当人们真的偏离了轨道，他们没有支持系统，他们就在大海的这个小船头。
They figured out some kind of way to rally.
他们想出了某种方法来团结起来。
In my mind, that’s the dream of all this.
在我看来，这就是这一切的梦想。
If I die and there’s any legacy left or anything done, it’s finding a way to take all the people that fill that role and organizing them and empowering them and protecting them.
如果我死了，留下了任何遗产或做了任何事情，那就是找到一种方法来召集所有担任该角色的人，组织他们，赋予他们权力并保护他们。
It’s rebuilding the community, but in a real way, not in this fairy tale bullshit, everybody’s going to love each other, and we’re all just going to be one big happy family.
它正在重建社区，但以一种真正的方式，而不是童话故事中的废话，每个人都会彼此相爱，我们都会成为一个幸福的大家庭。
Everybody’s still going to get mad and hate each other in certain ways, and that’s good.
每个人仍然会在某些方面生气和憎恨对方，这很好。
We need those tornadoes, like you said.
正如你所说，我们需要那些龙卷风。
We need people pissed off and angry, and we need people to feel like they can be angry and open about things that are wrong.
我们需要人们感到愤怒和愤怒，我们需要人们感到他们可以生气并对错误的事情持开放态度。
1:04:25 People should be able to speak their mind, and we shouldn’t all just kiss each other’s ass, and we shouldn’t all just pretend to be overly polite and say, “Hey, Debbie, you have a good weekend?” Like you said, we need all this controversy and this turmoil.
人们应该能够说出自己的想法，我们不应该只是互相拍马屁，我们也不应该假装过于礼貌地说：“嘿，黛比，你周末愉快吗？”就像你说的，我们需要所有这些争议和混乱。
And we need the hell of that side that the internet brings out in people, but it just needs to be in real life, and it needs to be in a way where we all are at least chasing the same common goal, which is probably that we don’t want to starve, and we want to have decent health, and we want to be able to provide a decent life for our kids, or at least we just want to live a decent life.
我们需要互联网给人们带来的地狱般的一面，但它只需要在现实生活中，并且需要以一种我们所有人至少都在追求同一个共同目标的方式，这可能是我们不想挨饿，我们想要拥有体面的健康，我们希望能够为我们的孩子提供体面的生活，或者至少我们只是想过上体面的生活。
1:04:59 I think somehow that fixes what you describe, the people who fall in despair and are isolated.
我认为这在某种程度上解决了你所描述的情况，即那些陷入绝望和孤立的人们。
It’s a terrifying world to live in.
这是一个令人恐惧的世界。
It’s that principle.
就是这个原则。
Again, I need a phone a friend thing where we can just keep calling Jordan for all these things.
再说一次，我需要一部电话，一个朋友的东西，我们可以继续打电话给乔丹处理所有这些事情。
But he explains, there’s this principle in the Bible about the more you have, the more you’ll receive and the less you’ll receive kind of a thing.
但他解释说，圣经中有这样一个原则：你拥有的越多，你得到的就越多，你得到的东西就越少。
And it’s just a universal law in society where it seems like the lower you get to the bottom, it’s almost like the less resources you have available and the less friends you have, and it’s like you, the further you go, it snowballs into where it’s like people just hit rock bottom, and then what?
这就是社会的普遍规律，似乎你跌得越低，你拥有的资源就越少，你的朋友就越少，就像你，你走得越远，它就像滚雪球一样，就像人们刚刚跌入谷底，然后呢？
It’s like when you get out of prison, what are you supposed to do?
就像你出狱后，你应该做什么？
Or when you’re a veteran with mental health, what are you supposed to do?
或者当你是一名心理健康的退伍军人时，你应该做什么？
In my mind, that’s what the church is supposed to be there for is …
在我看来，这就是教堂应该存在的目的……
but obviously it doesn’t fill that role anymore.
但显然它不再扮演这个角色了。
To some people, at least religion does a little bit.
对于某些人来说，宗教至少起了一点作用。
1:05:56 It’s at least a foundation of community, a foundation of hope for people when they’re really struggling.
它至少是社区的基础，是人们在真正挣扎时的希望基础。
Yeah.
是的。
You got thousands of messages, like you talked about from people.
您收到了数千条消息，就像您从人们那里谈论的那样。
1:06:12 You’ve gotten to talk to thousands of people about their pain.
你必须与成千上万的人谈论他们的痛苦。
Through your work, through your music, you’ve been an inspiration to those people to find a way out of the pain.
通过你的工作，通过你的音乐，你一直激励着那些人找到摆脱痛苦的方法。
Can you tell the full story of your own lowest point.
你能完整地讲述一下你自己的最低谷吗？
Before all of this, before the music, before you blew up, can you take me through the story of the depression, the drinking, and just the roughest times in your life?
在这一切发生之前，在音乐响起之前，在你爆发之前，你能带我讲讲抑郁症、酗酒以及你生命中最艰难时期的故事吗？
Sometimes it’s not even …
有时甚至不是……
1:06:49 It’s funny, but it’s almost not even where you’re at in life.
这很有趣，但这几乎不是你生活中的处境。
It’s where you perceive yourself at in life and what your goals are moving forward.
这是您对自己生活的看法以及您前进的目标。
I dropped out of high school at 17, basically ran away from home.
我17岁就从高中退学，基本上离家出走。
I have always had this authority problem, and so I just didn’t want to listen to my parents.
我一直有这个权威问题，所以我就是不想听父母的话。
I didn’t want to go to college.
我不想上大学。
I just wanted to go move into the mountains.
我只是想搬进山里。
I was running away from responsibility, I guess is what I was doing.
我在逃避责任，我想这就是我所做的。
And so got this girl pregnant, had my first kid when I was 18 or just about to turn 19.
于是我就让这个女孩怀孕了，在我 18 岁或即将 19 岁的时候生下了我的第一个孩子。
And like I said, I’m working in the air conditioning factory with a bunch of convicted felons.
就像我说的，我在空调厂和一群被定罪的重罪犯一起工作。
And so from there, everything was just reactionary.
所以从那时起，一切都是反动的。
I never really had a plan.
我从来没有真正的计划。
I would jump from job to job just like most everybody else.
我会像大多数其他人一样从一个工作跳到另一个工作。
1:07:37 I don’t know.
我不知道。
I just got to a point where I guess I just quit believing in myself and I knew that I wasn’t doing …
我刚刚到了一个地步，我想我已经不再相信自己了，我知道我没有做……
I wasn’t feeling my purpose, and I wasn’t being the best version of myself I could be.
我没有感觉到自己的目标，也没有成为最好的自己。
And so the alternative to facing yourself in the mirror and accepting that I’m not a shitty person, I’ve just let myself fall.
因此，除了面对镜子中的自己并接受自己不是一个糟糕的人之外，我还得让自己跌倒。
It’s so hard to accept when you’ve had that fall, that it’s just easier just to get drunk and just do the bare minimum you can to keep everything sort of moving along, but you don’t really care if you live or die.
当你经历了那次跌倒之后，你很难接受，只是喝醉酒并尽你所能让一切顺利进行会更容易，但你并不真正关心你是生还是死。
You don’t really care about much anything.
你并不真正关心任何事情。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
Life is just so beautiful when you’re a child.
当你还是个孩子的时候，生活是如此美好。
You’re so imaginative and exploratory, and you’re learning all these things, and you just can’t wait to be an adult because you’re just going to go out and do all these incredible …
你非常富有想象力和探索精神，你正在学习所有这些东西，你迫不及待地想成为一个成年人，因为你要出去做所有这些令人难以置信的事情......
and then …
然后……
You face the reality of it.
你要面对现实。
Yeah.
是的。
1:08:30 And the pressure and the fear of failure.
还有压力和对失败的恐惧。
I think maybe even my own fear of failure is what drove me into …
我想也许是我自己对失败的恐惧驱使我……
But yeah, and you think negatively about yourself for so many days and weeks and months, and you don’t even have a real self-awareness of what you’re doing or how destructive you’ve become.
但是，是的，你在很多天、几周、几个月里都对自己抱有消极的想法，你甚至没有真正意识到自己在做什么，或者你已经变得多么具有破坏性。
But you always have that discernment in you, that conscious, that little voice and your spirit that is letting you know you’re messing up.
但你内心总是有那种洞察力，那个有意识的、那个小小的声音和你的精神，让你知道你搞砸了。
I was almost like I was wrestling with myself.
我几乎就像在和自己摔跤。
And so I don’t know.
所以我不知道。
I just got to a point where it was just a very overwhelming sense of numbness.
我已经到了一种非常强烈的麻木感的地步。
Nothing that mattered before really matters anymore.
以前重要的一切都不再重要了。
1:09:24 I guess that’s probably, to me, the definition of depression, is when all the things you love and care about are just meaningless, and you can’t really can’t find meaning or purpose or excitement in anything.
我想这对我来说可能就是抑郁症的定义，就是当你所爱和关心的所有事情都毫无意义时，你无法真正在任何事情中找到意义、目的或兴奋。
I think especially with men that commit suicide, it’s a prolonged period of that.
我认为特别是对于自杀的男性来说，这是一个很长的时期。
It’s not like they just wake up one day and they have a bad day, and they kill themselves.
他们并不是有一天醒来，度过了糟糕的一天，然后自杀了。
It’s like you self-reflect negatively about yourself and your life, and you don’t do the things that you’re supposed to do every day for a long enough period of time, and it’s …
这就像你对自己和你的生活进行消极的自我反思，并且你没有在足够长的时间内做你每天应该做的事情，而且......
pretty soon you’ve built this whole mountain of-
很快你就建造了整座山——
1:10:03 It’s like, pretty soon you’ve built this whole mountain of mismanaged, neglected stuff, for lack of a better word, this mountain that you have to climb back up in order to fix all these things that you should have been doing all along.
就像，很快你就建造了这座管理不善、被忽视的东西的大山，因为缺乏更好的词来形容，你必须重新爬上这座山，才能解决所有这些你应该一直做的事情。
And then, on the other side of it it’s like, well, I could just die, that seems like…
然后，在它的另一边，就像，好吧，我可能会死，这似乎......
It’s almost like, I think from a man’s perspective, maybe, the friends that I’ve had that I’ve lost, it seems like, a lot of times you think you’d never see it coming.
我想，从一个男人的角度来看，这几乎就像是，我失去的朋友，很多时候你认为你永远不会看到它的到来。
I don’t know, maybe that’s a general thing with…
我不知道，也许这是普遍现象……
It seems like a lot of times men mask that better, and you don’t pick up on it as much.
似乎很多时候男人会更好地掩饰这一点，而你却不太注意到这一点。
But I think it’s like you just dig yourself into a point to where it’s like you have a mountain of responsibility in front of you that you haven’t faced, that you don’t know how to face, and you haven’t been able to do so for a long time, but there’s this really easy detour, and it’s just putting your big toe on the trigger.
但我认为，这就像你把自己陷入了一个境地，就像你面前有一座你没有面对过的责任大山，你不知道如何面对，而且你已经很长一段时间都无法做到这一点，但有一个非常简单的弯路，它只是把你的大脚趾放在扳机上。
1:11:00 And it’s like, which one of those are…
就像，其中哪一个是……
I don’t know.
我不知道。
They both seem…
他们俩看起来……
But at that point, your perception of reality is so distorted that you don’t…
但那时，你对现实的看法是如此扭曲，以至于你不……
All the things that would normally compel you to move along, like love and joy and your drive to be that, none of that really, it’s not there for you to even contemplate, if that makes sense.
所有通常会迫使你前进的事情，比如爱和快乐，以及你想要成为那样的动力，实际上，这些都不是你可以思考的，如果这有意义的话。
It’s like, that part is almost like, at least for a little while, invisible, and all you see is fear and responsibility, and just this, like I said, I just envision it like a mountain that you don’t really know if you’re even able to climb, and then the other option is just…
就像，那部分几乎是，至少在一段时间内，是看不见的，你看到的只是恐惧和责任，就像我说的，我只是把它想象成一座山，你真的不知道你是否能够攀登，然后另一种选择就是……
So, I think that’s probably where a lot of people go, and that’s probably where I was, was just…
所以，我想这可能是很多人去的地方，那可能就是我所在的地方，只是……
Yeah, there’s the, it’s not just responsibilities, the immensity of it, the mountain, and I think you’re accurately describing how it happens, which is gradually.
是的，这不仅仅是责任，还有它的巨大，这座山，我认为你准确地描述了它是如何发生的，这是逐渐发生的。
Yeah.
是的。
Seeing yourself in a negative light over time slowly suffocates you, and then the burden of the responsibility that piles up.
随着时间的推移，用消极的眼光看待自己会慢慢地让你窒息，然后责任的负担就会堆积起来。
1:12:06 And unfortunately, of course, one of the ways out is to pull the trigger, and the other way out is the Jordan Peterson, back to Jordan, sort of one gradual step at a time, like make your bed.
当然，不幸的是，其中一种出路是扣动扳机，另一种出路是乔丹·彼得森，回到乔丹，一次一个渐进的步骤，就像整理你的床一样。
It’s like, start climbing out, the responsibilities before you, one at a time, every single day, just climbing out, and have faith that it will work out.
就像，开始爬出来，你面前的责任，一次一个，每一天，只是爬出来，并相信它会成功。
That was what was so powerful for me about just beginning to open my mind back up to reading just a little bit of stuff, a little bit of stuff from the New Testament, that Jesus said, and some different perspectives and teachings.
这对我来说是如此强大，因为我刚刚开始打开我的思想，重新阅读一点点东西，耶稣所说的新约圣经中的一点点东西，以及一些不同的观点和教义。
1:12:46 But an apostle would be in prison, basically being tortured and facing death, but just overjoyed in writing about talking…
但使徒会在监狱里，基本上受到酷刑并面临死亡，但只是在写下谈论时感到欣喜若狂……
It’s all about your perspective of things.
这完全取决于你对事物的看法。
Like I said, that’s why I never could understand why celebrities or professional…
就像我说的，这就是为什么我永远无法理解为什么名人或专业人士......
Giving one example of many, a Kurt Cobain type scenario, where you have a guy that’s just immensely talented, just will always be loved by plenty of people, I never could understand why that guy…
举一个例子，科特·柯本式的场景，你有一个非常有才华的人，永远会受到很多人的喜爱，我永远无法理解为什么那个人......
There’s a ocean of quiet suffering in a lot of, and I think it is disproportionately men, in a lot of men, and they hide it well.
很多人身上都隐藏着巨大的痛苦，我认为这在很多男人身上是不成比例的，而且他们隐藏得很好。
That’s why blue collar workers have such a high suicide rate in all too, and why it is so important to talk to those people when…
这就是为什么蓝领工人的自杀率如此之高，以及为什么在……时与这些人交谈是如此重要。
Yeah, no, could see it in the eyes, and there is a lot of pain there.
是的，不，可以从眼睛里看到，那里有很多痛苦。
Without trying to open up too many doors, I think that’s probably the best way I would describe it, is just a series of really…
在不试图打开太多门的情况下，我认为这可能是我描述它的最好方式，只是一系列真正的……
1:13:54 Just a series of negligent decisions, and also just misperceptions.
只是一系列疏忽的决定，也只是误解。
I think this was an Andrew Huberman thing where he talks about medications and how it’s a lot more likely for somebody to keep their dog on their medication schedule but not themselves.
我认为这是安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）的作品，他谈论了药物治疗以及人们如何更有可能让他们的狗遵守药物计划，而不是自己。
You love your dog, and your dog is just this great little thing, and you don’t see the flaws and the faults and the sin and the disgust in your dog that you do yourself.
你爱你的狗，你的狗就是这么伟大的小东西，你看不到你自己对你的狗所做的缺点、错误、罪恶和厌恶。
So, it’s much more likely for people to make sure their dog has their medication every day.
因此，人们更有可能确保他们的狗每天都服用药物。
But there’s this alarming statistic with just the amount of people that don’t even fill their prescriptions they need filled, or take care of themselves the way they do.
但有一个令人震惊的统计数据，即有多少人甚至没有按需要配药，也没有按照自己的方式照顾自己。
1:14:45 And then, that also, over time, if you quit taking care of yourself and you’re not in good health, and you’re not in a good routine, a long series of doing enough of those things, it’s easy for you to just think that your self-worth is zero.
然后，随着时间的推移，如果你不再照顾自己，你的健康状况不佳，你的生活习惯也不好，一长串做足够多的这些事情，你很容易认为你的自我价值为零。
Because if you’re not even willing to have basic hygiene, and eat decent food, and try to take care of yourself, t’s like how on earth are you going to go face all these things that you need to face to get your life better?
因为如果你连基本的卫生习惯、吃像样的食物、照顾好自己都不愿意，那么你到底要如何去面对所有这些让你的生活变得更好的事情呢？
If you don’t even care enough to do that.
如果你甚至不关心这样做。
But it is, it’s a long tragic road to get to that point, I think.
但我认为，要达到这一点，还有一条漫长而悲惨的道路。
At least in my case.
至少就我而言。
The idea that there was something bigger than me, that loved me, even despite I had all these flaws and problems, and just that I was just such a wretched person, that’s what, at least in my situation, that’s what I think helped put…
尽管我有所有这些缺点和问题，但有一个比我更伟大的东西爱我，而且我只是一个如此可怜的人，这就是，至少在我的情况下，我认为这有助于……
More than anything.
比什么都重要。
1:15:41 Like I said, that’s certainly where the motivation to quit the…
就像我说的，这肯定是退出的动机……
Once I quit the drinking, it helped a lot because I was able to, even though it was difficult, I was able to actually be able to be honest with myself and reflect on a lot of things that were…
一旦我戒酒，这对我有很大帮助，因为我能够，尽管这很困难，但我能够真正对自己诚实并反思很多事情......
And you got to think, like I said, of course, in my case, it was a little unfair of an example because within a month all this stuff had happened, after I quit.
你必须想，就像我说的，当然，就我而言，这个例子有点不公平，因为在我辞职后的一个月内，所有这些事情都发生了。
But I see it in my friends that have quit, and have tried to turn things around, and it is the most beautiful thing in the world to see somebody come to life again after being in one of those…
但我在我的朋友身上看到了这一点，他们已经放弃了，并试图扭转局面，看到有人在经历了其中之一之后再次复活，这是世界上最美好的事情……
You’re able to sort of escape this shell of all those terrible things.
你能够摆脱所有这些可怕事物的外壳。
1:16:21 And even if you are still in a bad position, and you got 30,000 worth of credit card debt, and you’re working some shit job, and your car doesn’t start half the time, and your girlfriend left you for some other dude…
即使你的处境仍然很糟糕，你背负着三万的信用卡债务，你正在做一些糟糕的工作，你的车有一半时间无法启动，你的女朋友离开你去找其他男人......
And don’t matter what it is, that little glimmer of hope, that faith that there is a chance, it’s something greater, that’ll push people, you can push them out aside with that.
不管它是什么，那一丝希望，那种相信还有机会的信念，它是更伟大的东西，它会推动人们，你可以用它把他们推到一边。
You can do anything with that.
你可以用它做任何事。
And I think it is important to have a good support structure, when you get to that point, I don’t think anybody should have to face that stuff by themselves.
我认为拥有一个良好的支持结构很重要，当你达到这一点时，我认为任何人都不应该自己面对这些事情。
And there’s plenty of other people out there that are in the same position, and I think that’s, again, I think that’s why it’s so important for us to try to get reconnected on a personal level, and not just through digital communication.
还有很多其他人处于同样的境地，我认为这就是为什么我们尝试在个人层面上重新建立联系而不仅仅是通过数字通信如此重要。
1:17:09 Because all we see of each other online is the good stuff, very rarely are people posting on Facebook talking about…
因为我们在网上看到的都是好东西，所以很少有人在 Facebook 上发帖谈论……
How could you even?
你怎么可能呢？
It’s like, all you see is the best of people, but I don’t think we realize that we’re all going through a lot of the same things anyway, the low points and stuff.
就像，你看到的都是最好的人，但我认为我们没有意识到我们都在经历很多相同的事情，比如低谷之类的。
Guess what happens when you either lose your job or can’t quite figure out a good job, and you’re not making that much money, or you’re basically broke, and you have a girlfriend that’s not happy about you being broke, she’s going to leave you.
猜猜当你失业或找不到一份好工作，你赚不到那么多钱，或者你基本上破产了，而你的女朋友对你破产感到不高兴时，她会离开你，会发生什么。
1:17:26 If it’s a wife, that could face divorce, and the breakups and divorce can break a lot of people even when they’re doing well.
如果是妻子，可能会面临离婚，而分手和离婚也会让很多人心碎，即使他们过得很好。
And now, when they’re not doing well, well, that’s a rough one.
而现在，当他们表现不佳时，那就很艰难了。
And that basically your support system for a lot of people is the relationship, is the wife.
对于很多人来说，基本上你的支持系统就是人际关系，就是妻子。
And so, that’s taken the support system from underneath you.
所以，这剥夺了你下面的支持系统。
I’ve had good friends of mine, I’ve seen getting destructive relationships, and they’ll start to date a girl and then within a year they’re just a shell of what they were, because sometimes…
我有一些好朋友，我见过破坏性的关系，他们会开始和一个女孩约会，然后一年之内他们就只剩下一个空壳了，因为有时……
1:18:03 I do think you have to be careful with your self validation, and the way you perceive yourself, and making sure that it’s you giving yourself that and not somebody else.
我确实认为你必须谨慎对待你的自我验证，以及你看待自己的方式，并确保是你自己而不是别人给你的。
I do think too it’s…
我也觉得是……
Yeah.
是的。
How are you supposed to, if you can’t even keep a woman around to love you right, how are you supposed to love yourself?
如果你连一个女人都不能好好爱你，你还怎么爱自己？
It’s easy to think about that.
很容易想到这一点。
I’ve seen a lot of men get wrecked in bad relationships and stuff too, it’s tough.
我见过很多男人在糟糕的人际关系中被毁掉，这很艰难。
Yeah.
是的。
1:18:41 Ultimately, I think, maybe dark to say, but there is a base layer at which we’re alone in this world.
我想，也许说起来有些黑暗，但最终，我们在这个世界上是孤独的。
You need to be strong by yourself first and foremost.
你首先要让自己变得强大。
Because sometimes there’ll be times in life where everybody leaves you.
因为有时候生活中会有每个人都离开你的时候。
The wife leaves you, the job leaves you, and for some people, even people you thought are friends will backstab you.
妻子离开了你，工作离开了你，对某些人来说，即使是你认为是朋友的人也会在背后捅你一刀。
And even then you have to have the strength to find your footing again.
即便如此，你也必须有力量重新站稳脚跟。
That ultimately comes from you, right?
这最终来自于你，对吗？
Man, of course, like I said, in all the experiences I’ve been through, I’d be a fool to deny it, but I do think, there is God there that’s always there, but you certainly can self-isolate yourself too, even from that.
伙计，当然，就像我说的，在我经历过的所有经历中，如果我否认这一点，那我就是个傻瓜，但我确实认为，上帝永远在那里，但你当然也可以自我隔离，即使是这样。
If you can find faith in yourself, I’ve seen it do wonderful things for human beings.
如果你能找到对自己的信心，我已经看到它为人类带来了奇妙的事情。
1:19:29 You and God, faith in something bigger than you, yeah, that can give strength to a lot of people.
你和上帝，对比你更伟大的事物的信仰，是的，这可以给很多人力量。
But allowing yourself to derive strength solely from other people can be a dangerous thing.
但让自己仅仅从别人那里获得力量可能是一件危险的事情。
Because people are complicated and they can betray, they can…
因为人是复杂的，他们可以背叛，他们可以……
Just like they fill your life with love, they could also destroy you.
就像他们让你的生活充满爱一样，他们也可能毁掉你。
That’s also the beautiful thing about life.
这也是生活的美好之处。
Yeah, it is.
是的，确实如此。
You make yourself vulnerable to other people, you form deep relationships, that means they can also destroy you.
你让自己容易受到其他人的伤害，你建立了深厚的关系，这意味着他们也可以摧毁你。
1:20:05 So, that’s life.
所以，这就是生活。
That’s what makes this whole thing…
这就是整件事的原因……
And then you write really great heartbreak songs.
然后你写出非常伟大的令人心碎的歌曲。
Yeah.
是的。
There’s something valuable about people fucking you over and hardship and all that kind of stuff.
人们操你、困难以及诸如此类的事情都是有价值的。
Even the best of us have terrible parts of us.
即使我们中最好的人也有可怕的部分。
1:20:31 We are all flawed inherently because we’re human.
我们生来就有缺陷，因为我们是人类。
And so, there’ll never be another Garden of Eden on earth, figuratively, where we all just live harmoniously and everything’s great and happy and wonderful, but it’s those basic principles that you talk about, like love and those relationships and those connections that we have that make it all…
因此，地球上永远不会再有另一个伊甸园，象征性地，我们都和谐地生活在那里，一切都伟大、快乐和美妙，但正是你谈论的那些基本原则，比如爱和我们拥有的那些关系和联系，才使得这一切......
Because think about it, in a lot of cases it’s like, that’s the position you get in when you get so depressed, and you get so low, is like, what’s the point in even doing all this?
因为想一想，在很多情况下，这就是当你变得如此沮丧、情绪如此低落时你所处的位置，就像，即使做这一切又有什么意义呢？
It is just, for anyone, it is just so crazy, overly complicated, and exhausting to live, isn’t it?
只是，对于任何人来说，生活都太疯狂、太复杂、太累了，不是吗？
Even in this modern society where we have all these wonderful little conveniences, and we can just have food delivered right to our door, if we want, and all this kind of crap, it’s like people are still more depressed now than they’ve ever been, and all the mental anxiety and all the mental health stuff is just probably just as prevalent as it’s ever been.
即使在这个现代社会，我们拥有所有这些美妙的小便利，如果我们愿意，我们可以直接把食物送到家门口，还有所有这些垃圾，人们现在仍然比以往任何时候都更加抑郁，所有的精神焦虑和所有的心理健康问题可能和以前一样普遍。
1:21:34 People talk about money not making you happy, and it’s easy when you’re…
人们谈论金钱不会让你快乐，而当你……时，这很容易。
It’s easy when you’re broke to think, man, if I had some money…
当你身无分文时，很容易就会想，伙计，如果我有一些钱……
And of course financial freedom is what you’re really looking for, not an abundance of wealth.
当然，你真正想要的是财务自由，而不是大量的财富。
But the things that we talk about that make life worth living aren’t things that you can buy, they are things that you obtain through relationships and love and life.
但我们所说的让生活变得有价值的东西并不是你可以买到的东西，而是你通过人际关系、爱和生活获得的东西。
And so, it is just an infinitely complex and crazy thing to think about, but that human component of us is what is what’s so important to our long-term existence, our ability to have connection with each other, and the joy we find in that, the purpose we find in that is, it’s not anything that’s replaceable with anything.
因此，这是一件极其复杂和疯狂的事情，但我们的人类成分对于我们的长期存在、我们相互联系的能力以及我们从中找到的快乐、我们从中找到的目的来说是非常重要的，它是任何东西都无法替代的。
Yeah, I’ve seen that with just seeing the effects of war on people, and basically war strips away everything.
是的，我通过看到战争对人们的影响就看到了这一点，基本上战争剥夺了一切。
1:22:26 You lose your home, you lose everything.
你失去了你的家，你失去了一切。
And you get to see what’s actually really important, that’s its other people in your life, friends, family.
你会看到什么才是真正重要的，那就是你生活中的其他人、朋友、家人。
It’s almost cliche to say, but it’s the people you love in your life that make up the essence of what makes life worth living.
这句话几乎是陈词滥调，但正是你生命中所爱的人构成了让生活变得有价值的精髓。
It’s not the homes, the material possessions, even the job and whatever else, it’s the humans.
重要的不是房屋、物质财产、甚至工作或其他任何东西，而是人类。
So, yeah, yeah, it’s important to remember.
所以，是的，是的，记住这一点很重要。
A lot of us, especially in the United States, under a capitalist system, are chasing money, it’s important to remember what you’re doing it all for.
我们很多人，尤其是在美国，在资本主义制度下，都在追逐金钱，重要的是要记住你所做的一切是为了什么。
I got to talk to you about your writing process, you’ve written just a bunch of really incredible songs.
我必须和你谈谈你的写作过程，你写了一堆非常令人难以置信的歌曲。
You say you’re not a good musician, which is hilarious.
你说你不是一个好的音乐家，这很搞笑。
Dude, I have zero self-confidence about any…
哥们，我对任何事都零自信……
1:23:33 Just about anything.
几乎任何事情。
But when I say that, I’m not being funny, I’m like…
但当我这么说时，我并不是在开玩笑，我只是……
Do you get nervous when you get on stage?
上台的时候你会紧张吗？
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
1:23:45 Yeah, I can think about shows coming up and my hands will sweat thinking about them.
是的，我可以想象即将到来的演出，一想到它们我就会手心出汗。
Yeah, you told me that you haven’t really played the songs for a couple months, old songs-
是的，你告诉我你已经好几个月没有真正演奏这些歌曲了，老歌——
Since September, yeah.
从九月份开始，是的。
Since September.
自九月以来。
Well, dude, think about, I’m not going just sit around and play, I’ve Got to Get Sober for fun-
好吧，伙计，想一想，我不会只是坐着玩，我必须保持清醒以获得乐趣-
So, you feel the songs when you play them?
那么，你在演奏这些歌曲时有什么感觉吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
1:24:16 Man, that’s rough.
伙计，这太粗糙了。
That’s rough.
这很粗糙。
A lot of musicians talk about that kind of thing though, right?
很多音乐家都在谈论这类事情，对吧？
1:24:19 About this…
关于这个……
I don’t know.
我不知道。
I’ve heard about that with people, about hating to play songs because of that side of it, but..
我听说过人们因为这一面而讨厌演奏歌曲，但是..
Oh yeah, I’ve become close friends with Dan Reynolds, who’s the lead singer for Imagine Dragons, and he says every time he performs a song, he has songs that have depression in them and all that kind of stuff, and he says the only real way to do it is to feel it.
哦，是的，我和丹·雷诺兹（Dan Reynolds）成为了亲密的朋友，他是“Imagine Dragons”的主唱，他说每次他表演一首歌时，他的歌曲都会充满抑郁之类的东西，他说唯一真正的方法就是去感受它。
1:24:30 You can’t just fake it, you have to be in it, you have to really feel the song, as if you’re writing it for the first time.
你不能只是假装它，你必须身处其中，你必须真正感受到这首歌，就像你第一次写它一样。
So, as a performer he says that that’s his duty, he has to the audience, but then that takes a toll.
因此，作为一名表演者，他说这是他的责任，他必须对观众负责，但这会造成损失。
That’s not easy to do.
这并不容易做到。
Especially with the songs you write.
尤其是你写的歌。
There’s a lot of darkness there in your songs.
你的歌里有很多黑暗。
Yeah.
是的。
1:25:14 And I do have some lighter hearted ones too that…
我也确实有一些心情轻松的人……
The thing is, I’ve only put out, I’m a little funny about…
问题是，我只是说了，我有点好笑……
God, I don’t know how many songs I have written that I will probably never do anything with.
天哪，我不知道我写了多少首歌，但我可能永远不会用它来做任何事。
Probably at least 20 or 30 of them that are just like, I just don’t know why I don’t want to put them out, but just…
可能至少有 20 或 30 个这样的人，我只是不知道为什么我不想把它们拿出来，但只是……
What does it look like?
它看起来像什么？
1:25:38 Do you have a notebook with ideas, or do you mean you have little videos of half-baked songs?
您是否有一个充满想法的笔记本，或者您是否有一些半生不熟的歌曲的小视频？
Yeah, I’ve got my old phone, even just that old phone that I recorded all the stuff for TikTok and all on, it’s got loads of little…
是的，我有我的旧手机，即使只是我为 TikTok 录制所有内容的那部旧手机，它也有很多小……
1:25:46 Just like the way that Richmond one was, where it was in the bathroom, facing the…
就像里士满那个一样，它在浴室里，面向……
And I had that.
我就有了。
That’s all that, even that one I showed you on there, it had been sitting on my phone probably a couple months before it…
就是这样，即使是我向你展示的那个，它可能在几个月前就已经放在我的手机上了……
That’s why I said, I have too many unfinished songs, it’s exactly what I meant.
所以我说，我还有很多未完成的歌，这就是我的意思。
I’ve got all these little snippets of things, like a little blip here or there.
我得到了所有这些小片段，比如这里或那里的一些小现象。
But the writing process is, well, it’s a lot different than I thought most people write, because there’s a lot of people that do these writing rooms and stuff, or you have these co-writes, where they’ll have people sit down, and they sit on the couch and smoke a joint, and they’re like, all right, let’s write this song, and they just start plugging away.
但写作过程是，嗯，它与我想象的大多数人写的有很大不同，因为有很多人做这些写作室和东西，或者你有这些共同创作，他们会让人们坐下来，他们坐在沙发上抽烟，他们就像，好吧，让我们写这首歌，然后他们就开始埋头苦干。
And to me, that’s like, I can’t do that, I have to just…
对我来说，这就像，我不能那样做，我必须……
It’s like a lot of times the songs come when I’m not prepared for them.
就像很多时候，歌曲在我没有准备好的时候就出现了。
You like to be alone.
你喜欢一个人呆着。
Well, alone in my head, I could be anywhere in it.
好吧，独自一人在我的脑海里，我可以在其中的任何地方。
1:26:46 Some of them I’ll just be in the shower, and I’m like, scram…
其中一些我只是在洗澡，然后我就想，赶紧滚……
Because the thing is, it’s a certain part of your brain I guess, that creates that stuff, or picks it up, or does whatever, but they go just as quick as they come.
因为问题是，我猜是你大脑的某个部分创造了那些东西，或者捡起它，或者做任何事情，但它们来得快，去得也快。
It’s like when you wake up…
就像你醒来时一样……
It’s exactly like when you wake up, you’ve had this crazy vivid dream in your head, and you wake up and it’s all right there, and then you stop thinking about it for half a second, and then it all goes away, and you’ll never remember it again.
就像当你醒来时，你脑子里已经有了这个疯狂而生动的梦，当你醒来时，一切都在那里，然后你停止思考半秒钟，然后一切都消失了，你永远不会再记得它了。
You can’t remember your dreams like that, it’s exactly like that.
你不可能那样记住你的梦，就是这样。
It’s like it’ll be there, it’s perfect, it’s all right…
就好像它会在那里一样，完美，一切都好……
It’s almost like given to you, just perfect, parts of it or the whole thing or whatever.
它几乎就像是给你的，完美的，它的一部分或全部或其他什么。
And then, you get into this flow state to where you just, it’s all there in front of you, and you just figure it all out, and it’s like somehow you’ve unlocked this little part of your brain that you don’t even really know how to get to, but you just get to it, and it’s all there, and you figure it out, but man, if you don’t get it, it’s gone.
然后，你就进入了这种心流状态，一切都在你面前，你就把它全部弄清楚了，就好像你以某种方式解锁了你大脑的这一小部分，你甚至不知道如何到达它，但你只要到达它，一切都在那里，你就弄清楚了，但是伙计，如果你不明白它，它就消失了。
You’ll never get it again.
你永远不会再得到它。
You’ll never even be able to replicate that song ever again.
你甚至永远无法再次复制那首歌。
It’s like it’ll just go away.
就好像它会消失一样。
And typically, it’s only maybe the first half of the first verse is what I’ll get, or it’ll be the chorus line I’ll get, and then I’ll build the rest of the song around that, if that makes sense, I guess.
通常情况下，我可能只会得到第一节的前半部分，或者我会得到副歌部分，然后我会围绕它构建歌曲的其余部分，如果这有意义的话，我想。
Well, the words or the music or the melody, what pops into your head?
好吧，歌词、音乐或旋律，你的脑海中会浮现出什么？
The emotion, I guess, the words.
我想，情感，言语。
1:28:07 Sometimes it’s a phrase, like one thing I will do is, especially out in the country, people say the craziest things, and so sometimes I’ll jot down a little bit of…
有时这是一个短语，就像我会做的一件事是，尤其是在乡下，人们会说最疯狂的事情，所以有时我会记下一些……
I will sometimes on my phone take a little note, if somebody says something real crazy that I’ve never heard before, and then maybe one day it’ll just pop in my head, like, oh…
有时我会在手机上记下一些笔记，如果有人说了一些我以前从未听过的真正疯狂的事情，然后也许有一天它会突然出现在我的脑海中，就像，哦......
I don’t know.
我不知道。
It’s very random though.
但这是非常随机的。
I don’t sit and just try to write songs, that’s why I haven’t just been dumping out, even though I have been writing a lot of songs, I haven’t just been dumping out all this crazy music.
我不会坐下来尝试写歌，这就是为什么我没有抛弃它，尽管我写了很多歌曲，但我并没有抛弃所有这些疯狂的音乐。
I don’t want to force it, I don’t want to do truck, beer, girl songs.
我不想强迫，我不想做卡车、啤酒、女孩歌曲。
I don’t want to force songs, I don’t want to like…
我不想强求歌曲，我不想喜欢……
Do you have any truck, beer, girl songs?
有卡车、啤酒、女孩歌曲吗？
1:28:49 Because that would be an interesting-
因为那将是一个有趣的——
Yeah, I’ve got this silly one about this guy in West Virginia that, he’s the most laid back…
是的，我有一个关于西弗吉尼亚州这个人的愚蠢的故事，他是最悠闲的......
1:28:53 Because I always get in my head and go over analytical about stuff, and get real serious sometimes about things, and he’s like, buddy, you just got to take a drag off this thing.
因为我总是在脑子里对事情进行分析，有时对事情非常认真，而他就像，伙计，你只需要把这件事拖下来即可。
And he’d always peer pressure me into taking a hit off a joint or something, and he just didn’t take life so seriously.
他总是向我施加同侪压力，让我接受关节打击之类的事情，但他只是不那么认真地对待生活。
So, I’ve written this song about, it’s called Dr. Dan, and it’s about…
所以，我写了这首歌，它的名字叫丹博士，它是关于……
He’s a doctor, but he’s not a conventional doctor.
他是一名医生，但他不是一个传统的医生。
That’s a silly one that I’ll put out.
这是一个愚蠢的问题，我将把它提出来。
So, I do have some silly ones like that.
所以，我确实有一些这样的愚蠢的人。
That’s great.
那太棒了。
I have a couple funny ones that I’ll never, ever, ever probably play to the public, but I played them at the Mothership, only because nobody has their phones in there.
我有几个有趣的东西，我可能永远、永远、永远不会向公众播放，但我在母舰上播放了它们，只是因为那里没有人有手机。
1:29:30 But right after we did Rogan, somehow I got connected with Tom Segura right after Rogan, and we went over to the Mothership and I got to meet him.
但就在我们拍完《罗根》之后，不知何故，我在《罗根》之后就与汤姆·塞古拉取得了联系，我们去了母舰，我见到了他。
And I love Adam [inaudible 01:29:52], he was on the thing with Norm McDonald is how I got introduced to him, that show Norm McDonald had.
我爱亚当 [听不清 01:29:52]，他和诺姆·麦克唐纳在一起，我就是这样被介绍给他的，诺姆·麦克唐纳的那个节目。
But he just, he’s an awesome dude.
但他只是，他是一个很棒的家伙。
And so, we ended up at the Mothership, I think it was the evening after the Rogan podcast, and Tom’s like, “Well, they’ve never had live music in here,” he’s like, “You could be the first one.” And I was like, whatever.
所以，我们最终来到了母舰，我想那是罗根播客结束后的晚上，汤姆说，“好吧，他们这里从来没有现场音乐，”他说，“你可能是第一个。”我当时想，无论如何。
And so, we only had one guitar, and I had my guitarist, Joey, with me.
所以，我们只有一把吉他，我的吉他手乔伊和我在一起。
So, Ron White was there, it was Tom Segura and then Ron White that night.
所以，那天晚上，罗恩·怀特也在那里，汤姆·塞古拉，然后是罗恩·怀特。
1:30:22 And Ron took Joey in his car, drove him across town to his house and grabbed another guitar, and came back, and we got up there and we did two really silly songs, and then Richmond, in between Tom’s set and Ron’s set.
罗恩带着乔伊开车，开车送他穿过城镇到他家，抓起另一把吉他，然后回来，我们到了那里，唱了两首非常愚蠢的歌曲，然后是《里士满》，在汤姆的歌曲和罗恩的歌曲之间。
And I was, again, that was one of those moments in my life where I was like, what?
再次，那是我生命中的那些时刻之一，我当时想，什么？
What is this?
这是什么？
What is this crazy reality I’m in?
我所处的这个疯狂的现实是什么？
But I have some funny.
但我有一些搞笑的。
Because when I wasn’t playing the open mics…
因为当我没有演奏开放式麦克风时......
Well, like Brian that you met, a lot of my guitar playing was spent at places like his house, and we were all heavy drinkers, and we were just sitting around at a party playing or whatever.
嗯，就像你遇到的布莱恩一样，我的很多吉他演奏都是在他家这样的地方度过的，我们都是酗酒者，我们只是坐在聚会上演奏或其他什么。
And so, I definitely liked the silly stuff too.
所以，我也确实喜欢那些愚蠢的东西。
But I was really in my head when we were talking about being low, and what I would suggest people to do if they’re in that point.
但当我们谈论情绪低落以及我会建议人们在这种情况下做什么时，我的脑海里确实浮现出一些想法。
1:31:09 But if I was, not to flip this, but it just popped in my head, but probably what I would tell anybody to do if they’re suicidal and thinking about, if they’re to that point, is just to go find somewhere in nature and go…
但如果我是的话，我不会翻转这个，但它只是突然出现在我的脑海中，但可能我会告诉任何有自杀倾向的人要做的事情，如果他们到了那个地步，就是去寻找大自然中的某个地方，然后去……
I missed this step when we were talking about things, but selling my house and buying that property and putting a camper on it and trying to go into this whole off grid thing, really, I don’t know, it does a lot of good for you being reconnected to nature.
当我们谈论事情时，我错过了这一步，但是卖掉我的房子并购买该房产并在上面放上露营车并尝试进入整个离网的事情，真的，我不知道，这对您重新与自然联系有很多好处。
We are a part of it, but…
我们是其中的一部分，但是……
Oh yeah, I went to the jungle for that reason, being out in nature in every way is beautiful.
哦，是的，我就是因为这个原因才去了丛林，在大自然中无论从哪方面来说都是美丽的。
1:31:42 I say you got some…
我说你有一些……
Maybe that’s what I need to do is get some goats.
也许我需要做的就是养一些山羊。
I saw-
我看到——
I got two I can give you.
我有两个可以给你。
I have more questions, why are you giving them so easily?
我还有更多问题，为什么你这么轻易地提出来？
1:31:56 Are there issues I need to know about?
有我需要了解的问题吗？
Well, they’re goats.
好吧，他们是山羊。
1:32:01 Yeah.
是的。
There’s no free lunch, man.
天下没有免费的午餐，伙计。
1:32:03 You got goats, you got all kinds of animals.
你有山羊，你有各种各样的动物。
So, what’s the story of you out in the woods, what were you doing out there?
那么，你在树林里的故事是什么？你在那里做什么？
No comment.
没有意见。
1:32:14 I’m just kidding.
我只是在开玩笑。
Just trying to escape this dystopian nightmare that we’re all living under.
只是想逃离我们都生活在其中的反乌托邦噩梦。
It was just a form of escapism, I guess.
我想这只是逃避现实的一种形式。
But well, yeah, I think in such a short period of time, my grandfather grew up, they were in a survival estate trying to make enough money to pay the tax on their land, growing tobacco, and then here I am, in this digital world, two generations later, and I’m just like, something’s not…
但是，是的，我想在这么短的时间内，我的祖父长大了，他们在一个生存庄园里试图赚足够的钱来缴纳他们的土地税，种植烟草，然后我就在这里，在这个数字世界中，两代人之后，我就像，有些东西不是......
I just felt called to try to figure all that out, and how to get back into that.
我只是觉得自己被召唤去尝试解决这一切，以及如何重新回到这个问题上。
There’s such a purity to, man, if you raise an animal and kill it and eat it…
如果你饲养一只动物并杀死它并吃掉它，那真是太纯洁了……
And I’m not talking about Ted Nugent style, but just raising meat, birds, and pigs, and stuff, and having the ability to put those in the freezer and cook them for dinner, they taste so much better.
我不是在谈论泰德·纽金特风格，而是只是饲养肉、鸟、猪之类的东西，并且能够将它们放入冰箱中并煮它们作为晚餐，它们的味道好多了。
1:33:06 But it’s just, I don’t know how to describe it, but it just brings me joy, being able to grow stuff, and even just flowers and everything else, just watching stuff that’s alive that is just such a…
但它只是，我不知道如何描述它，但它给我带来了快乐，能够种植东西，甚至只是鲜花和其他一切，只是看着那些活着的东西，真是……
What we’re doing now is I bought this permaculture farm that hadn’t been operational in six or seven years, and they did a lot of herbs, they had a big orchard, blueberries, but my dream there is to create this space that’s the optimal place for humans to go, to fix their mind.
我们现在要做的是，我买了这个永续农场，它已经六七年没有运营了，他们种植了很多草药，他们有一个大果园，还有蓝莓，但我的梦想是创造这个空间，成为人类去的最佳场所，以调整他们的思想。
So, what’s the animals and the food that I can have there, and the trees that I can plant, and the certain types of wildlife that I can bring in and attract, the noises and the sounds and the smells that are optimal for a human to be in, in order to fix whatever it is.
那么，我可以在那里吃什么动物和食物，可以种植什么树木，可以引进和吸引哪些类型的野生动物，最适合人类居住的噪音、声音和气味，以便解决问题。
1:33:55 I had the opportunity to meet Robert Kennedy Jr early on with all this, and he actually came out to my property and all, and we’re still…
我很早就有机会见到小罗伯特·肯尼迪，他实际上来到了我的财产和所有的地方，而我们仍然……
I think the idea is that we’re going to launch this healing center thing out there, once they get through all the mess, they got their hands full a little bit right now with things.
我认为我们的想法是，我们将在那里推出这个治疗中心的东西，一旦他们解决了所有的混乱，他们现在就可以处理一些事情了。
But whether I go that route or not, it’s like, that’s my goal is to basically create a place that people can go and fix their mind and find the optimal thing.
但无论我是否走这条路，我的目标基本上就是创造一个人们可以去的地方，让他们调整心态并找到最佳的东西。
We’ve got laying birds, and meat birds, so we get our eggs and meat, and then we’ve done pigs, and sheep, and goats, and then I’m going to start, I’m going to get cattle in the spring, so we’ll start doing Wagyu, and Angus, and playing around with…
我们养了蛋禽和肉禽，所以我们养了蛋和肉，然后我们养了猪、绵羊和山羊，然后我要开始，我要在春天养牛，所以我们开始养和牛、安格斯，然后玩……
And I want to get some funny stuff too.
我也想得到一些有趣的东西。
Large animals have a lot of, there’s all these large animal therapies out there for mental health, with vets and stuff, it’s something really relaxing and rewarding about being in that space.
大型动物有很多，有所有这些大型动物的心理健康疗法，有兽医和其他东西，在那个空间里真的很放松和有益。
What do you find out there in nature that you can’t find anywhere else?
你在大自然中发现了什么在其他地方找不到的东西？
1:34:54 Can’t find in the “civilized world?”
在“文明世界”找不到？
Well, everything in civilization seems so, everything we’ve talked about, it seems so…
好吧，文明中的一切似乎都是如此，我们谈论的一切似乎都是如此……
1:35:04 There’s such a level of despair and unorganization and chaos and just all these terrible parts of life that seem so unstructured and just so uncertain.
绝望、无组织、混乱，以及生活中所有这些可怕的部分，看起来如此无组织、如此不确定。
But in nature, everything is certain, everything has a system.
但本质上，一切都是确定的，一切都有系统。
Even on the microbial level of soil, there’s this intricate system, and soil fixes it, the bacteria fixes the soil, and you can grow certain types of plants to restore certain types of nutrients, and then that can grow certain types of trees, and then that can bring in certain types of birds, and it’s like this whole big…
即使在土壤的微生物层面上，也有这个复杂的系统，土壤修复它，细菌修复土壤，你可以种植某些类型的植物来恢复某些类型的养分，然后可以种植某些类型的树木，然后可以引入某些类型的鸟类，就像整个大......
Nature is just this whole big beautiful system, like Earth is just such an intricate complex system that is structured.
大自然就是这个美丽的大系统，就像地球就是一个结构错综复杂的系统一样。
And although there is chaos, there’s literal tornadoes, like the metaphor we were using earlier, there are literal tornadoes in nature, and other things, but there’s a piece about observing the structure there.
尽管存在混乱，但确实存在龙卷风，就像我们之前使用的比喻一样，自然界中也存在真正的龙卷风，还有其他事物，但有一篇关于观察那里的结构的文章。
1:36:05 And to me, it helps remind and restore my faith that there is something bigger than me, that…
对我来说，它有助于提醒和恢复我的信念，有比我更伟大的东西，那......
Yeah.
是的。
And there’s a spiritual side to it that I don’t know that I can really correctly articulate, but man, sitting out in the woods with some creek flowing by you, and just sitting in stillness, where you don’t hear anything, there’s no traffic from a road, there’s no…
其中有精神的一面，我不知道我能否真正正确地表达出来，但是，伙计，坐在树林里，有小溪从你身边流过，只是安静地坐着，你听不到任何声音，路上没有交通，没有……
You’re just there in stillness and just watching the Earth do its thing, it’s just…
你只是静静地在那里，看着地球做它的事情，只是……
I’ve gotten a chance to spend a day and a night alone deep in the Amazon jungle.
我有机会在亚马逊丛林深处独自度过一天一夜。
That’s my dream, man.
那是我的梦想，伙计。
1:36:42 God.
上帝。
You basically take the woods and the creek and the quiet, let’s put that a three on a scale of one to 10, the Amazon jungle is like an 11, because you’re not just listening to the creek, you’re listening to a lot of different species of animal having sex, or trying to kill each other.
你基本上会想到树林、小溪和安静，让我们把它从 1 到 10 的等级划分为 3，亚马逊丛林就像 11，因为你不只是在听小溪的声音，你还在听很多不同种类的动物交配或试图互相残杀的声音。
1:36:44 And you’re just like, birds, monkeys, just everything.
你就像鸟、猴子，什么都一样。
And the floor full of insects, bigger kinds of ants murdering smaller kinds of ants, it’s an orchestra of insects.
地板上满是昆虫，体型较大的蚂蚁杀死体型较小的蚂蚁，这是一个昆虫乐团。
But it’s quiet in the sense that there’s no machinery.
但从没有任何机械的意义上来说，它很安静。
The really dark thing about the Amazon rainforest, that sometimes depending on where you are, you’ll sometimes hear in a distance the sound of a chainsaw, you’ll hear…
亚马逊雨林的真正黑暗之处在于，有时根据您所在的位置，您有时会听到远处电锯的声音，您会听到……
And it pierces the day because there’s just no machinery anywhere around.
它刺破了这一天，因为周围没有任何机械。
But once you hear it, it is this undeniable symbol of what human civilization does to nature.
但一旦你听到它，它就是人类文明对自然所做的不可否认的象征。
It pains me seeing woods get knocked down and residential subdivisions taking their place.
看到树林被推倒，住宅区取而代之，我感到很痛苦。
1:37:54 The monkey part of my brain wants to just go burn it all down, it’s just not good.
我大脑中的猴子部分想把它全部烧掉，这不好。
I don’t know, I just instinctually observe it as being not good.
我不知道，我只是本能地认为它不好。
And I don’t know exactly how to describe it, but I’m with you.
我不知道该怎么形容，但我和你在一起。
That was, like I said, that’s why I felt so compelled, I had this little house that I had maybe a little bit of equity in, and it was in 2019, and the housing market was up, and I was like, I sold our little house and got that…
就像我说的，这就是为什么我感到如此被迫，我拥有这座小房子，我可能拥有一点股权，那是在 2019 年，房地产市场上涨，我当时想，我卖掉了我们的小房子，然后得到了……
I was able to find 92 acres for like 1100 an acre, and so I still had to finance it, but it was at least barely within my…
我能够以每英亩 1100 美元的价格找到 92 英亩的土地，所以我仍然需要融资，但它至少在我的……范围之内。
And so, that’s what we did.
所以，这就是我们所做的。
I was paying 600 a month on the land, and I bought a little camper for $750 off this hunt club in Waverly, Virginia, and drug it up there, and that’s what we had.
我每月支付 600 美元的土地费用，然后花 750 美元从弗吉尼亚州韦弗利的狩猎俱乐部买了一辆小露营车，然后在那里下了药，这就是我们所拥有的。
And went and bought a little, I got a little Kubota tractor for 0% financing, and was cutting…
然后去买了一点，我以 0% 的融资买了一辆小久保田拖拉机，然后正在切割……
1:38:57 This property was a mile off the road, so I had to cut basically recut in an old logging road and stuff.
这处房产距离道路一英里，所以我不得不在一条旧伐木路和其他东西上基本上重新切割。
And you want to talk about putting a strain on your marriage, that’ll do it, buddy, is selling your modest little rancher and doing that.
如果你想谈论给你的婚姻带来压力，那就行了，伙计，就是卖掉你谦虚的小牧场主，然后这样做。
But man, that’s when I really started to live.
但是，伙计，那是我真正开始生活的时候。
And I think probably that was the beginning point of the restoration of me.
我想这可能就是我恢复的起点。
And I feel bad that a lot of people just don’t even know what that’s like to be on a farm or be out in nature, and I can’t imagine just living in a suburb or a city your whole life and never getting to experience that.
我感到难过的是，很多人甚至不知道在农场或在大自然中是什么感觉，我无法想象一生都住在郊区或城市却从未体验过这些。
It’s good that we have all this technology, it’s great, and the science and the innovation is important, and even the fact that you can go on YouTube and look up how to do almost anything is important.
我们拥有所有这些技术，这很好，这很棒，科学和创新很重要，甚至你可以在 YouTube 上查找如何做几乎任何事情这一事实也很重要。
1:39:40 It’s just that there isn’t a clear definitive line between what’s beneficial and educational, and what’s predatory and harmful.
只是什么是有益的、有教育意义的，什么是掠夺性的、有害的，之间并没有明确的界限。
And so, it happens to me all the time, but I could go on YouTube and look up how to change the brake shoes on my truck or something, and if I click on a Short of somebody doing it, I automatically go to the next video, and I may be three or four videos deep before I catch…
所以，这种情况经常发生在我身上，但我可以在 YouTube 上查找如何更换卡车上的刹车蹄或其他东西，如果我点击有人这样做的短片，我会自动转到下一个视频，在我捕捉到之前我可能已经深入了三四个视频......
I’m watching some lady throw a pie at somebody, and then pretty soon I’m like, wait, I’m changing my brake, that’s the only issue with it.
我看着一些女士向某人扔馅饼，然后很快我就想，等等，我正在更换刹车，这是唯一的问题。
And then, you’re just doom scrolling and it does something to your mind, it just completely takes the humanity away.
然后，你只是在厄运滚动，它会对你的思想产生一些影响，它完全剥夺了人性。
Yeah.
是的。
It is really horrible.
实在是太可怕了。
1:40:21 That dopamine thing does something in my mind that I hate, which really is the opposite of nature.
多巴胺的作用在我的脑海里做了一些我讨厌的事情，这确实是与自然相反的。
The feeling I remember being out in nature, and not just a hike, a hike is good, but for prolonged periods of time, several days away from the internet.
我记得在大自然中的感觉，不仅仅是徒步旅行，徒步旅行很好，但是很长一段时间，几天远离互联网。
Away from all that.
远离这一切。
What is that?
那是什么？
I don’t know what that is.
我不知道那是什么。
But I don’t like what X, Twitter, are doing, I don’t like what Instagram is doing, whatever that is, I don’t think that’s good for the soul.
但我不喜欢 X、Twitter 正在做的事情，我不喜欢 Instagram 正在做的事情，无论那是什么，我认为这对灵魂没有好处。
I’m not sure.
我不知道。
Yeah, it’s emulating things that we need to be healthy humans, but it’s just feeding it visually and audibly to us, but it’s not giving us the…
是的，它正在模仿我们成为健康人类所需的东西，但它只是在视觉和听觉上向我们提供它，但它并没有给我们......
1:40:51 It’s giving us the instant gratification of it, but it’s not giving us the long-term pleasure or fulfillment of it.
它给了我们即时的满足感，但并没有给我们带来长期的快乐或满足。
Like I said, and the beauty is we’re in this weird period in time, it’s a breath of time that we’re in, where we are able to conceptualize and observe what life was like in that transition point that’s got us up till now.
就像我说的，美妙之处在于我们正处于这个奇怪的时期，这是我们所处的一段时间，我们能够概念化和观察那个让我们走到现在的过渡点的生活是什么样的。
And we also have the…
我们还有……
Because in order for all this to continue to evolve, even with AI, it needs us more than we need it right now, still, for a very short period of time.
因为为了让这一切继续发展，即使有了人工智能，它对我们的需要也比我们现在需要的更多，但在很短的时间内。
But we have access to nearly all the information that the world has, theoretically, but we also still have the perception and the memory of what life was like before it.
但从理论上讲，我们几乎可以获得世界上所有的信息，但我们仍然拥有对之前生活的感知和记忆。
1:41:47 And so, this is a very short window of time, like a breath of time, where I think we can find a way to incorporate this into normal life, but I think if that breath leaves us, I don’t know, I think it’s…
所以，这是一个非常短的时间窗口，就像一个呼吸的时间，我认为我们可以找到一种方法将其融入正常生活，但我认为如果那个呼吸离开我们，我不知道，我认为它是......
I believe, I truly believe it is irreversible.
我相信，我真的相信这是不可逆转的。
And that’s just going to be the end of us, and it could take two or three more generations to get to that point.
这将是我们的终结，可能还需要两到三代人才能到达这一点。
But I think why don’t we find people that are way smarter than me.
但我想为什么我们不找到比我聪明得多的人呢？
And look at all the things that trend on social media, the videos that everybody watches, I don’t know what it is, if it’s wood splitting and plumbing and blacksmithing and doing something with…
看看社交媒体上流行的所有事物，每个人都观看的视频，我不知道它是什么，是否是劈木、管道、铁匠和做一些事情……
Let’s find all the things that people are attracted to online, that they obviously are interested in, and just figure out a way to have them in real life for people to immerse themselves in.
让我们找到人们在网上被吸引的所有东西，他们显然感兴趣的东西，然后找到一种方法让它们出现在现实生活中，让人们沉浸其中。
Yeah, it’s the transitionary state, and one of the responsibilities I take very serious, because I agree with you, is I tried to pierce the bubble that is the San Francisco, that is the Silicon Valley, that is the people that build these technologies, they often live a bit in a bubble.
是的，这是过渡状态，我非常认真地承担的责任之一，因为我同意你的观点，就是我试图刺破旧金山、硅谷的泡沫，也就是构建这些技术的人们，他们经常生活在泡沫中。
1:42:38 That said, the people that criticize tech folks also live in a bubble.
也就是说，批评科技人士的人也生活在泡沫之中。
And to, first of all, piercing bubbles in general is good for people to get along, to understand each other, because people that say all technology is evil, unfortunately, even if that’s true, which I don’t think it is, it’s coming.
首先，刺破泡沫总体上有利于人们相处、相互理解，因为人们说所有技术都是邪恶的，不幸的是，即使这是真的，我不认为它是真的，但它即将到来。
It’s going to be built.
它将被建造。
1:43:18 And so, you have to figure out how to do it in a way that preserves our humanity, that doesn’t drag us into this black hole of just maximizing engagement, maximizing this dopamine thing, where instead of reading Dostoevsky, which I should be doing, I’m looking at some girl shaking her ass on Instagram, and then feeling horrible about myself five minutes later.
所以，你必须弄清楚如何以一种保留我们人性的方式来做这件事，这不会把我们拖入这个最大限度地参与、最大化多巴胺的黑洞，在那里我没有读陀思妥耶夫斯基，而我应该读陀思妥耶夫斯基，而是在Instagram上看着一个女孩摇着屁股，五分钟后我对自己感到可怕。
That, at scale is what seems to be happening.
从规模上看，这似乎正在发生。
And so, reminding ourselves that this is not the way to steer human civilization to progress, to flourishing.
因此，我们提醒自己，这不是引导人类文明进步、繁荣的道路。
The problem is I think we’re wasting a lot of our bandwidth.
问题是我认为我们浪费了很多带宽。
1:43:51 We only have so many minutes in the day to even use our brains, and our brains can only do but so much in a day anyway.
我们一天只有这么多分钟来使用我们的大脑，而且我们的大脑一天也只能做这么多事情。
And when we’re wasting any of it on just that, it’s like, I see it, in my own professional opinion, as the world is becoming just a little more, in the last decade or two, as the world becomes a little more dreary and dark, and more problems happen, and city streets become more littered, and jobs are…
当我们在这方面浪费任何时间时，就像，以我自己的专业观点来看，随着世界变得更加沉闷和黑暗，在过去的一两年里，随着世界变得更加沉闷和黑暗，更多的问题发生，城市的街道变得更加垃圾，工作岗位......
All these kinds of problems that we all argue about all the time, as they become more prevalent, it’s like the internet and just the visuals of the internet become so much more immersive, and video games are so much more…
所有这些我们一直在争论的问题，随着它们变得越来越普遍，就像互联网一样，互联网的视觉效果变得更加身临其境，视频游戏也变得更加……
1:44:36 Everything’s so much better, everything’s improving at lightning speed in technology, and it’s degrading in society, and in the real world.
一切都变得更好了，一切都在技术上以闪电般的速度进步，但它在社会和现实世界中却在退化。
And somehow there’s got to be a way to find a balance there.
无论如何，必须有一种方法可以在那里找到平衡。
But right now, it seems like as technology becomes more immersive and addictive and interactive, the way these algorithms feed us exactly what we want, and there’s so much psychology, and just so much research that goes into making them as addictive as possible, it’s like the real world kind of sucks.
但现在，似乎随着技术变得更加身临其境、令人上瘾和互动，这些算法为我们提供了我们想要的东西，而且有这么多的心理学和大量的研究来让它们尽可能上瘾，就像现实世界有点糟糕一样。
1:45:02 …
……
tip is possible.
小费是可能的。
It’s like the real world kind of sucks.
就像现实世界有点糟糕一样。
Cities that were beautiful and thriving are now falling apart, and have all kinds of problems that are being unaddressed, and lack of leader…
曾经美丽繁荣的城市现在正在分崩离析，各种问题得不到解决，缺乏领导者……
It’s like there’s got to be some kind of way, and so it’s easy for us to feel more and more inclined to escape into the digital realm because the digital realm is becoming more fun while real life is becoming less fun, and there’s got to be some kind of way to balance between the two.
就好像必须有某种方式，所以我们很容易感觉越来越倾向于逃入数字领域，因为数字领域变得越来越有趣，而现实生活却变得越来越不有趣，并且必须有某种方式来平衡两者。
1:45:26 I’m with you.
我和你在一起。
I’m not against technology at all.
我一点也不反对科技。
I think evil most certainly existed long before there were computers and in even more treacherous ways.
我认为邪恶肯定早在计算机出现之前就已经存在，而且以更危险的方式存在。
Now we have the ability to do…
现在我们有能力做……
Like I said, we’re in a very temporary state right now in 2025, where the general public has access to basically all the information there is, and artificial intelligence, and just immense, and the ability that a guy can just set a bunch of cameras up, and start doing podcasts, and have even just the fact that your platform could be created is immensely powerful.
就像我说的，我们现在处于 2025 年的一个非常临时的状态，公众可以访问基本上所有的信息，还有人工智能，而且是巨大的，一个人可以设置一堆摄像机，开始做播客，甚至可以创建你的平台这一事实是非常强大的。
It probably never existed in world history up until now, but we also still have…
迄今为止，它可能从未存在于世界历史上，但我们仍然拥有……
The problem is if we just keep going without being careful about losing the real world aspect of it, is that at some point we’re just going to get so lost and so immersed in this space, we’re not even going to know what we’re missing out on.
问题是，如果我们继续前进而不小心失去现实世界的一面，那么在某些时候我们就会迷失并沉浸在这个空间中，我们甚至不知道我们错过了什么。
All there’s going to be is Girls on Instagram.
Instagram 上只会有 Girls。
All there’s going to be is that.
一切都会如此。
Yeah, I’ve been trying to figure it all out.
是的，我一直在努力弄清楚这一切。
1:46:24 I just did a super long podcast with Tim Sweeney, the CEO of Epic Games who created Fortnite.
我刚刚与《堡垒之夜》的创建者 Epic Games 首席执行官蒂姆·斯威尼 (Tim Sweeney) 做了一个超长的播客。
He created Unreal Engine, a lot of interesting video games, revolutionary video games.
他创造了虚幻引擎，许多有趣的视频游戏，革命性的视频游戏。
So I don’t know if you know, but Fortnite is this gigantic video game where people go into an online world and they shoot stuff.
所以我不知道你是否知道，《堡垒之夜》是一款巨大的视频游戏，人们进入在线世界并拍摄东西。
It’s fun.
这很有趣。
It’s not like Call of Duty intense, militaristic, raw, real kind of shooting.
这不像《使命召唤》那样激烈、军国主义、原始、真实的射击。
It’s more fun shooting at each other.
互相射击更有趣。
But at first I was skeptical, is that a good way to hang out with friends?
但一开始我很怀疑，这是和朋友一起出去玩的好方式吗？
But then I got to do it with people that I’m actually friends with in physical reality, and you get to hear each other’s voice, and you just talk, and talk shit about each other together.
但后来我必须和那些在物理现实中我实际上是朋友的人一起做这件事，你们可以听到彼此的声音，你们只是说话，一起谈论彼此的坏话。
1:47:14 It’s basically a phone call, honestly, with some visuals.
老实说，这基本上就是一个电话，带有一些视觉效果。
It’s not about the visuals, it’s about the phone call and it just makes it a little more convenient to connect regularly.
这与视觉效果无关，而与电话有关，它只是让定期联系变得更方便。
But I think you do need to remember that all of that only works if you’re consistently returning to physical reality.
但我认为你确实需要记住，只有当你不断回到物理现实时，所有这一切才有效。
In this case, taking the, quote, unquote, “Guy trip.” Not the Brokeback Mountain style, but just friends.
在这种情况下，引用“Guy trip”。不是断背山风格，只是朋友。
Just friends, a trip out in nature together, like dudes on a hunting trip, or just fishing, or just hanging out in physical reality together.
只是朋友，一起去大自然旅行，就像男人去打猎，或者只是钓鱼，或者只是一起在现实世界中闲逛。
We should not forget the importance of that.
我们不应该忘记这一点的重要性。
You talked earlier about loneliness.
你之前谈到过孤独。
1:47:54 I think that got brought up at some point, but I do think that’s a problem that’s caused a lot of our symptoms is that we are all very lonely.
我认为这个问题在某个时候就被提出来了，但我确实认为导致我们很多症状的一个问题是我们都非常孤独。
Even though we all seem to be so well-connected digitally, we are all so lonely.
尽管我们似乎都通过数字方式紧密联系在一起，但我们却都很孤独。
You got to think, Modern Warfare 2 was a big thing.
你必须想一想，《现代战争 2》是一件大事。
I was supposed to be in class of 2010, so you can think when I was in whatever grade, eighth grade or whatever, Call of Duty was the thing.
我本来应该是 2010 年级的学生，所以你可以想象，当我在任何年级，八年级或其他什么年级时，《使命召唤》就是我的最爱。
I’ve certainly, trust me, I’m not saying that I…
我当然，相信我，我并不是说我……
I’m right in this space of digital immersion with anybody else.
我和其他人都处于数字沉浸的空间中。
I’ve been there and seen it, but I’ve wasted who knows how many hundreds of hours on Modern Warfare 2, and I really built some great friendships from it.
我曾经去过那里并看过它，但我在《现代战争 2》上浪费了谁知道有多少时间，而且我确实从中建立了一些伟大的友谊。
1:48:41 There’s a place for all that stuff.
所有这些东西都有一个地方。
We have this innate responsibility to, again, it just goes back to talking about our founding fathers, and the way this country was created, and the importance of what it did for the world.
我们有这种与生俱来的责任，再次回到谈论我们的开国元勋、这个国家的创建方式以及它为世界所做的事情的重要性。
And my understanding is that it was the first time ever that people got together and agreed that, like you said, every man was equal.
我的理解是，这是人们第一次聚集在一起并一致认为，就像你说的，每个人都是平等的。
Because they were created in the image of God, they had uninalienable rights that no government could take away from them, and that’s really important.
因为他们是按照上帝的形象创造的，所以他们拥有任何政府都无法剥夺的不可剥夺的权利，这非常重要。
There won’t be Fortnite if we don’t worry about that.
如果我们不担心这一点，就不会有《堡垒之夜》。
And honestly, just the collapsing in our structure with the mental health with our youth, and the suicide rates with our blue collar workers, and all these things we’ve touched and talked about, those are all just things, we just need more time together in real life to fix those problems.
老实说，我们的结构崩溃，年轻人的心理健康状况，蓝领工人的自杀率，以及我们接触和谈论的所有这些事情，这些都只是事情，我们只是需要更多的时间在现实生活中一起解决这些问题。
1:49:34 Those are just things, like I said, I make the joke, but there’s never been argument that I’ve…
这些只是事情，就像我说的，我开玩笑，但从来没有人争论过我……
There’s never been one dispute with my wife that I’ve been able to figure out how to fix through a text message or a…
我和妻子之间从来没有发生过任何一场争执，我都能够通过短信或……找到解决办法。
It takes being in person with people and having human connection to fix any problem and to heal anything.
需要与人面对面交流并建立人际关系才能解决任何问题并治愈任何事情。
And so it’s difficult.
所以这很困难。
It’s not anybody’s fault that we’re like that.
我们变成这样并不是任何人的错。
We’re not even able to really get to know each other and understand each other through the internet.
我们甚至无法通过网络真正了解彼此、了解彼此。
We almost have to be together in person to even just get each other’s point of view and perspectives on things, and-
我们几乎必须亲自在一起才能了解彼此对事物的观点和看法，而且——
Yeah, fuck the division that the internet creates.
是的，去他妈的互联网造成的分裂。
1:50:09 Honestly, like the left and the right, it is been a nightmare for me just to watch because I see the very simple reality that we’re in it together and that there is a lot more commonality between people.
老实说，就像左派和右派一样，观看这对我来说就是一场噩梦，因为我看到了一个非常简单的现实：我们在一起，而且人与人之间有更多的共同点。
It seems cliche to say, but it’s like now that needs to be said more than ever because when you look on X, it feels like everybody’s divided, but we’re not.
这似乎是陈词滥调，但现在比以往任何时候都更需要说，因为当你看 X 时，感觉每个人都是分裂的，但我们不是。
[inaudible 01:50:35]-
[听不清 01:50:35]-
Well, and people are always going to think differently too, just in our structure and the way we…
嗯，人们总是会有不同的想法，只是在我们的结构和方式上......
1:50:34 Again, it goes back to that Jordan Peterson lecture about, I think in Maps of Meaning where he talks about people who think more conservatively or more liberally about things.
再次，这可以追溯到乔丹·彼得森（Jordan Peterson）的演讲，我认为在《意义地图》中，他谈到了那些以更保守或更自由的方式思考事物的人。
It’s been applied to politics, but it’s based more in psychology than anything.
它已应用于政治，但它更多地基于心理学。
Some people are going to think more inside the box and some people are going to think more outside the box, but we have to have both in order to have a healthy society.
有些人会更多地在框内思考，有些人会更多地在框外思考，但为了拥有一个健康的社会，我们必须两者兼得。
Oh, and also the thing that bothers me, your song, Rich Men North of Richmond, a lot of people, so a pretty even split, people on the left and the right in terms of friends of mine, and sadly, they’ve drifted towards the extremes a bit.
哦，还有让我困扰的事情，你的歌《里士满北部的富人》，很多人，所以相当均匀的分裂，就我的朋友而言，左派和右派的人，可悲的是，他们已经有点走向极端了。
1:51:03 Those on the left definitely have developed a case of Trump derangement syndrome.
左翼人士肯定已经患上了特朗普精神错乱综合症。
Those on the right seem to think that every person on the left is a radical leftist.
右翼似乎认为左翼的每个人都是激进的左派。
It’s hilarious to listen to people talk.
听人们说话很有趣。
It’s like everybody’s lost their mind it feels like.
就好像每个人都失去了理智。
But also on top of that, people on the right see Trump as this savior, as this figure who could do no wrong, who’s going to restore freedom in America and all…
但最重要的是，右翼人士将特朗普视为救世主，认为他不会做错事，他将恢复美国和所有人的自由……
You can do a full list of really positive things, and to me, he’s yet another rich man north of Richmond.
你可以列出一系列真正积极的事情，对我来说，他是里士满北部的另一位富翁。
Biden, Trump, it’s all the same thing.
拜登、特朗普，都是一样的。
1:52:06 Now, some might be able to do more good than others, but ultimately they’re in positions of power, and power corrupts, and those in those positions often forget about the everyday person, the working class, and they leave them behind, ultimately serve the people that are close to them and sometimes serve themselves to maintain power, to grow their power.
现在，有些人也许能够比其他人做得更多，但最终他们处于权力地位，而权力会腐败，而那些处于这些地位的人常常忘记了普通人，工人阶级，他们把他们抛在了后面，最终为亲近的人服务，有时为自己服务，以维持权力，增强权力。
I think the good thing you can say about them is they, and I could say that about both Donald Trump and Joe Biden, is that they really love their family.
我认为你可以说他们的优点是他们，我可以说唐纳德·特朗普和乔·拜登，他们真的很爱他们的家人。
I could say that one of the things that I love about both people is that they genuinely love their family.
我可以说，我喜欢这两个人的一件事是他们真诚地爱他们的家人。
And it was always heartwarming to me to see how much Joe Biden loves his family, and honestly just do anything for his family.
看到乔·拜登多么爱他的家人，并且诚实地为他的家人做任何事情，我总是感到很温暖。
And the same is true for Trump, and that just reminds you that they’re human beings.
特朗普也是如此，这只是提醒你他们也是人。
Yeah, all that to say is we need to see the humanity in each of us, and to some degree always distrust the people in power.
是的，我想说的是，我们需要看到我们每个人的人性，并且在某种程度上总是不信任当权者。
The power that people have only exists because we allow it, whether willingly or just through our own negligence.
人们所拥有的权力之所以存在，是因为我们允许它存在，无论是自愿的还是只是由于我们自己的疏忽。
1:53:15 But I think that’s the important thing is, like I said, there’s always more of us than there will be of them.
但我认为重要的是，就像我说的，我们的人数总是比他们的人数多。
There’s always more nobodies than there ever will be people at the top.
无名之辈的数量总是比处于高层的人还要多。
Fuck yeah, man.
他妈的，是的，伙计。
1:53:30 Fuck yeah.
他妈的是的。
We just have to figure out what to do with that and how to…
我们只需要弄清楚该怎么办以及如何……
And I think this is, like I said, a short window of time where we can still figure that out.
正如我所说，我认为这是一个很短的时间窗口，我们仍然可以解决这个问题。
I got to ask you about something before I forget.
在我忘记之前我得问你一件事。
1:53:40 I think I saw on Instagram you talked about a three-legged cat.
我想我在 Instagram 上看到你谈到了一只三足猫。
Is that a real thing?
这是真的吗？
Yeah.
是的。
What’s the story behind the three-legged cat?
三足猫背后有什么故事？
1:53:47 And the reason I want to ask you that, first of all, I want to hear the story, and second of all, I want to read to you one of my favorite Bukowski poems afterwards-
我想问你的原因是，首先，我想听这个故事，其次，我想随后给你读一首我最喜欢的布考斯基诗——
Nice, okay.
不错，好吧。
…
……
1:53:57 about another cat.
关于另一只猫。
All right, what’s the story?
好吧，故事是什么？
I had this cat lady neighbor who’s a real sweet lady, but older lady lives in a single-wide trailer, has probably got, I don’t know, 30 or 40 cats-
我有一位养猫的邻居，她是一位非常可爱的女士，但老太太住在一辆单宽拖车里，我不知道，可能养了 30 或 40 只猫——
Nice.
不错。
…
……
1:54:13 that she feeds at her house.
她在她家吃的。
Nice.
好的。
It was a rainy Saturday morning.
那是一个下雨的星期六早晨。
1:54:16 It was pouring down rain.
天正下着倾盆大雨。
It was like eight o’clock in the morning on Saturday.
那就像周六早上八点。
It was going to be a great day, I was going to…
这将是美好的一天，我打算……
And then I hear this lady yelling, “There’s this cat stuck in my car.” She’s all freaking out and don’t know what to do.
然后我听到这位女士大喊：“这只猫被困在我的车里了。”她吓坏了，不知道该怎么办。
And like I said, my wife’s a veterinary technician or whatever, so she’s got a little bit more sense about animals than any of us.
就像我说的，我的妻子是一名兽医技术员或其他什么的，所以她对动物的了解比我们任何人都多。
But we go over there and the lady’s tried to start her car, and there’s this kitten that was up under the hood, and she started the car and the cat, basically, it basically almost ripped its whole front leg off already.
但我们去那里，那位女士试图启动她的车，引擎盖下有一只小猫，她启动了汽车，那只猫，基本上，它几乎已经把它的整个前腿扯下来了。
There was just a little bit still attached, like some tendon or whatever, but the leg was wrapped up under the water pump, the pulley of the water pump, knocked the belt off.
只剩下一点点，比如肌腱什么的，但腿被包裹在水泵下面，水泵的滑轮把皮带撞掉了。
1:54:57 There was no way to save this leg on this guy, but the cat was pinned upside down, and so we ended up grabbing a…
没有办法挽救这个家伙的这条腿，但猫被倒立了，所以我们最终抓住了……
We asked the lady if she had a knife in the house, so she gave us this terrible looking knife, but it’s all that we had.
我们问这位女士家里是否有刀，所以她给了我们这把看起来很糟糕的刀，但这就是我们所拥有的一切。
I was like, we were trying to get this done.
我当时想，我们正在努力完成这件事。
So, yeah, my wife was the one that did it, but we got the rest of the stuff cut, and got the cat out.
所以，是的，是我妻子干的，但我们把剩下的东西剪掉了，把猫救了出来。
And I don’t know, I was over a grand we spent getting this cat’s, getting it properly sutured or whatever to where the cat could have a healthy recovery and all.
我不知道，我们花了一大笔钱买了这只猫，把它正确缝合，或者做其他什么让猫可以健康康复等等。
But I’m one of those type of people, I couldn’t just let this little…
但我就是这类人之一，我不能让这一点......
I’m not going to go, they were going to just go put the cat down or whatever, the lady.
我不会去，他们只是去把猫放下或者别的什么，女士。
So, yeah, I named her hop.
所以，是的，我给她起名叫“hop”。
1:55:46 So that’s my little cat and it hops around, but it was one of those things where…
这就是我的小猫，它跳来跳去，但它是其中之一……
Yeah, I don’t know.
是的，我不知道。
Great example with animals though.
不过，动物的例子很好。
I guess it’s the same way with people.
我想人也是如此。
I just always see the best and I just couldn’t-
我总是能看到最好的，但我却看不到——
Yeah, that’s one of the most amazing things about humans.
是的，这是人类最奇妙的事情之一。
1:55:59 It’s irrational to spend that much money on this cat, right?
花那么多钱买这只猫，不合理吧？
Because there’s so many other cats that are suffering, and dying, and so on, but that’s what makes humans really special.
因为还有很多其他的猫正在受苦、正在死去等等，但这正是人类真正的特别之处。
We see the person or the creature suffering in front of us and we’re willing to move mountains to save that person.
我们看到一个人或一个生物在我们面前受苦，我们愿意移山去拯救那个人。
It’s irrational, maybe it doesn’t make sense because the allocation of money and effort might not be correct, whatever.
这是不合理的，也许没有意义，因为金钱和精力的分配可能不正确，无论如何。
We just don’t give a shit.
我们根本不在乎。
The reason that we’re willing to do it for a cat, like I said, it’s just like the thing with the dogs about giving the dogs your medication by not yourself.
正如我所说，我们之所以愿意为猫这样做，就像对待狗一样，不要自己给狗用药。
1:56:35 So we see all the flaws, and all the problems, and all the disagreements, and all the anger we have with each other.
所以我们看到了所有的缺陷、所有的问题、所有的分歧、以及我们彼此之间的所有愤怒。
Just like you said, your friends on the right and the left, and stuff.
就像你说的，你的朋友在右边和左边，等等。
And we could show that kind of compassion, and we do.
我们可以表现出这种同情心，我们也确实这么做了。
Humanity does from time to time, show that kind of…
人类确实不时地表现出这种……
But we could show that just undeserved, just love to each other too.
但我们可以表明，这只是不值得的，也只是彼此相爱。
Love is like, it’s funny you talked about how both of those presidents, you could say they at least love their family, but love is like, I think everyone’s capable of love.
爱就像，有趣的是你谈到了两位总统，你可以说他们至少爱他们的家人，但爱就像，我认为每个人都有爱的能力。
It’s probably the most powerful thing there is, even beyond hate I think is…
这可能是最强大的东西，甚至超越仇恨，我认为是……
But it is crazy with…
但它很疯狂……
It comes out of us so easily with animals because, to us, they’re just these innocent little lives.
对于动物来说，我们很容易就会产生这种感觉，因为对我们来说，它们只是这些无辜的小生命。
We don’t have anything against them.
我们对他们没有任何反对意见。
They don’t talk.
他们不说话。
They don’t have political views.
他们没有政治观点。
They’re just little creatures, but the reality is we’re all just creatures like that.
他们只是小生物，但现实是我们都只是这样的生物。
Yeah.
是的。
1:57:43 We do that with human children, but we don’t do it enough with adults who are also kinds of children.
我们对人类儿童做到了这一点，但对同时也是儿童的成年人做得还不够。
We’re still fucking lost in this world.
我们仍然迷失在这个世界上。
So I got to read you this.
所以我必须给你读这个。
[inaudible 01:57:57].
[听不清 01:57:57]。
It’s got to be one of my favorite poems.
这一定是我最喜欢的诗之一。
1:57:56 It’s called The History of One Tough Motherfucker by Charles Bukowski.
查尔斯·布考斯基（Charles Bukowski）的书名叫《一个难对付的混蛋的历史》（The History of One Tough Motherfucker）。
And people should go look at videos.
人们应该去看视频。
There’s videos of Bukowski doing interviews with a cat by his side, and that’s the cat he’s talking about.
有布考斯基采访他身边的一只猫的视频，这就是他正在谈论的猫。
All right, it goes like this, “He came to the door one night, wet, thin, beaten and terrorized, a white, cross-eyed, tailless cat.
好吧，事情是这样的，“一天晚上，他来到门口，浑身湿漉漉的，瘦弱的，被殴打和恐惧，是一只白色的、斗鸡眼、无尾巴的猫。
I took him in and fed him and he stayed, grew to trust me until a friend drove up the driveway and ran him over.
我带他进去喂他，他留下来，逐渐信任我，直到一个朋友开车驶上车道把他撞倒。
I took what was left to a vet who said, ‘Not much chance.
我把剩下的东西交给了一位兽医，他说：‘机会不大。
Give him these pills.
给他这些药。
His backbone is crushed, but it was crushed before and somehow mended.
他的脊椎骨被压碎了，但以前被压碎过，后来又不知何故修复了。
If he lives, he’ll never walk.
如果他活着，他永远不会走路。
Look at these x-rays, he’s been shot.
看看这些X光片，他被枪杀了。
Look here, the pellets are still there.
看这里，颗粒还在那里。
Also, he once had a tail, somebody cut it off.’.
而且，他曾经有一条尾巴，有人把它砍掉了。”
1:58:55 I took the cat back.
我把猫带回来了。
It was a hot summer, one of the hottest in decades.
那是一个炎热的夏天，是几十年来最热的夏天之一。
I put him on the bathroom floor, gave him water and pills.
我把他放在浴室地板上，给了他水和药。
He wouldn’t eat.
他不吃。
He wouldn’t touch the water.
他不会碰水。
I dipped my finger into it, and wet his mouth, and I talked to him.
我把手指伸进去，弄湿他的嘴，然后和他说话。
I didn’t go anywhere.
我哪儿也没去。
I put in a lot of bathroom time and talked to him, and gently touched him, and he looked back at me with those pale, blue crossed eyes.
我花了很多上厕所的时间和他说话，轻轻地碰触他，他用那双苍白的蓝色斗鸡眼回望着我。
And as the days went by, he made his first move, dragging himself forward by his front legs.
日子一天天过去，他迈出了第一个动作，拖着前腿向前走。
The rear ones wouldn’t work.
后面的就不行了。
He made it to the litter box, crawled over and in.
他爬到垃圾箱前，爬了进去。
It was like the trumpet of possible victory blowing in that bathroom and into the city.
这就像胜利的号角在浴室里吹进了城市。
I related to that cat.
我和那只猫有关系。
I had it bad, not that bad, but bad enough.
我过得很糟糕，不是那么糟糕，但已经够糟糕了。
One morning he got up, stood up, fell back down and just looked at me.
一天早上，他起床，站起来，又倒下，只是看着我。
‘You can make it,’ I said to him.
“你能做到的，”我对他说。
He kept trying, getting up, falling down.
他不断地努力，爬起来，摔倒。
1:59:56 Finally, he walked a few steps.
终于，他走了几步。
He was like a drunk, the rear legs just didn’t want to do it, and he fell again, rested than got up.
他就像喝醉了酒一样，后腿就是不想动，又摔倒了，休息了还没有起来。
You know the rest.
其余的你都知道。
Now he’s better than ever, cross-eyed, almost toothless, but the grace is back and that look in his eyes never left.
现在他比以往任何时候都好，斗鸡眼，几乎没有牙齿，但优雅又回来了，他眼中的神情从未消失。
And now sometimes I’m interviewed, they want to hear about life, and literature, and I get drunk and hold up my cross-eyed, shot, runover, de-tailed cat, and I say, ‘Look.
现在有时我接受采访，他们想听听生活和文学，我喝醉了，举起我的斗鸡眼、射击、流过、有尾巴的猫，我说，‘看。
Look at this.” But they don’t understand.
看看这个。”但他们不明白。
They say something like, ‘You say you’ve been influenced by Celine?’ ‘No,’ I hold the cat up, ‘Influenced by what happens, by things like this, by this, by this.’ I shake the cat, hold him up in the smoky and drunken light.
他们会说，“你说你受到了席琳的影响？”“不，”我把猫举了起来，“受到发生的事情的影响，受到这样的事情的影响，受到这样的影响。”我摇晃着猫，在烟雾缭绕和醉酒的灯光下把他举了起来。
He’s relaxed.
他很放松。
He knows.
他知道。
It’s then that the interviews end.
然后采访就结束了。
Although I am proud sometimes when I see the pictures later, and there I am, and there’s the cat, and we’re photographed together, he too knows it’s bullshit, but that somehow it all helps.”
虽然有时当我后来看到这些照片时我会感到自豪，我在那里，那只猫在那里，我们一起合影，他也知道这是胡说八道，但这一切都有帮助。”
2:01:11 So when you posted about the-
所以当你发布关于-
I love that.
我喜欢那个。
…
……
2:01:14 the three-legged cat, there you go.
三足猫，你来吧。
And I think of your music and your life story in the same way.
我以同样的方式看待你的音乐和你的人生故事。
It’s just been through some shit, just like Bukowski.
它只是经历了一些糟糕的事情，就像布考斯基一样。
Neither of you two have been through what that cat’s been through, but that’s life.
你们两个都没有经历过那只猫所经历的事情，但这就是生活。
That’s what it’s all about.
这就是全部内容。
I was wondering if you could play a couple songs for me.
我想知道你能否为我演奏几首歌。
Sure.
当然。
2:01:37 Yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊。
Okay, cool.
好吧，酷。
2:01:38 Do you want to take a break or no?
你想休息还是不想休息？
No, I’m good.
不，我很好。
2:01:40 We might take a break just for me to get this figured out, but…
我们可能会休息一下，让我弄清楚这个问题，但是……
A bathroom break real quick.
浴室坏得很快。
Of course, yeah.
当然，是的。
Where is the guitar?
吉他在哪里？
2:01:51 No, positionally.
不，从位置上来说。
Yeah, I think this will be fine.
是的，我想这会没问题的。
So ghetto.
所以贫民窟。
Call Draven and be like, “Help.”
打电话给德莱文并说“救命”。
2:02:11 Well, I guess I’ll do, if I was going to do anything on here from the older songs that was relatable to everything we’ve talked about, it’d probably be I Want to Go Home.
好吧，我想我会做的，如果我要在这里做任何与我们谈论的一切相关的老歌，那可能是《我想回家》。
Sounds good.
听起来不错。
2:02:21 [inaudible 02:02:23].
[听不清 02:02:23]。
If it weren’t for my old dogs and the good Lord.
如果不是我的老狗和仁慈的上帝。
2:02:44 They’d have me strung up in the psych ward.
他们会把我吊死在精神病房里。
2:02:49 ‘Cause every day living in this new world is one too many days to me.
因为生活在这个新世界的每一天对我来说都太多了。
2:02:57 Son, we’re on the brink of the next world war.
儿子，我们正处于下一次世界大战的边缘。
2:03:02 And I don’t think nobody’s praying no more.
我认为没有人不再祈祷了。
2:03:07 And I ain’t saying I know it for sure.
我并不是说我肯定知道这一点。
2:03:11 I’m just down on my knees begging, Lord, take me home.
我跪下祈求主，带我回家。
2:03:19 I just wanna go home.
我只想回家。
2:03:24 I don’t know which road to go.
我不知道该走哪条路。
2:03:26 It’s been so long.
已经这么久了。
I just know I didn’t used to wake up feeling this way.
我只知道我不习惯醒来时有这样的感觉。
2:03:36 Cussing myself every damn day.
该死的每一天都在咒骂自己。
2:03:41 People have really gone and lost their way.
人们真的已经迷失了方向。
2:03:45 They all just do what the TVs say.
他们都只是按照电视上说的做。
2:03:49 I wanna go home.
我想回家。
2:04:06 Four generations farming the ground.
四代人耕种土地。
2:04:11 Grandson sells it to a man from out of town.
孙子把它卖给了一个外地人。
2:04:15 And two weeks later, the trees go down.
两周后，树木倒塌了。
2:04:19 Only got concrete growing around.
周围只有混凝土生长。
2:04:23 And I wanna go home.
我想回家。
2:04:29 I wanna go home.
我想回家。
I don’t know which road to go.
我不知道该走哪条路。
2:04:37 It’s been so long.
已经这么久了。
2:04:38 I just know I didn’t used to wake up feeling this way.
我只知道我不习惯醒来时有这样的感觉。
2:04:45 Cussing myself every damn day.
该死的每一天都在咒骂自己。
2:04:49 There’s always some kind of bill to pay.
总有一些账单需要支付。
2:04:53 People just doing what the rich man say.
人们只是按照富人所说的去做。
2:04:58 I wanna go home.
我想回家。
But if it weren’t for my old dogs and the good Lord.
但如果不是我的老狗和仁慈的上帝。
2:05:33 Well, they’d have me strung up in the psych ward.
好吧，他们会把我吊死在精神病房里。
That’s probably one of the first, I don’t know, it’s not the first song I wrote, but one of them.
这可能是第一首，我不知道，这不是我写的第一首歌，但其中一首。
What a song, man.
多好的一首歌啊，伙计。
2:05:46 What a song.
多么美妙的一首歌啊。
What a song.
多么美妙的一首歌啊。
What’s the story to that guitar?
那把吉他有什么故事？
Well, the guy who made this saved my butt because everything blew up and I was playing that little Gretsch resonator that’s in all the original videos.
好吧，制作这个的人救了我的屁股，因为一切都爆炸了，我正在演奏所有原始视频中的那个小 Gretsch 共鸣器。
2:05:52 And my wife had got me that off of Amazon, I think or something, for three or 400 bucks.
我想我妻子是从亚马逊上给我买的，花三四百美元。
It’s like just an entry level import, little Gretsch and the pickup never would work right in it.
就像只是入门级进口车一样，小 Gretsch 和皮卡永远无法在其中正常工作。
So this string wouldn’t work when you plugged it in.
所以当你插入它时，这个字符串将不起作用。
So here we are, everything happens all at once and we’re trying to do these shows.
所以我们在这里，一切都同时发生，我们正在努力做这些节目。
And I think the biggest one I did, so basically what I ended up having to do was go, I bought one of these suction cup rigs that sticks right here, and the mic goes down under here to pick that string up.
我认为我做过的最大的一个，所以基本上我最终要做的就是去，我买了一个吸盘装置，它粘在这儿，麦克风伸到下面来拾取那根绳子。
[inaudible 02:06:31].
[听不清 02:06:31]。
And we played a, I think the biggest show I did with it was like 10,000 people, but it was enough to where I couldn’t be doing a $300 guitar with a rigged up thing on it anymore.
我们玩了一场，我想我用它做过的最大的演出大约有 10,000 人，但这已经足够了，我不能再用 300 美元的吉他做一个装备好的东西了。
2:06:31 It just wasn’t going to work.
它就是行不通。
So this guy reached out and Gretsch wouldn’t help me with my…
所以这个人伸出手来，格雷奇不肯帮助我……
There’s no way to really get ahold of them because they’re such a big company.
没有办法真正联系到他们，因为他们是一家大公司。
I finally did get a hold of Diane Gretsch and she’s really nice, and so it’s nothing personal against Gretsch.
我终于联系上了黛安·格雷奇，她真的很好，所以对格雷奇来说并不是什么私人恩怨。
It’s just at the time I couldn’t get ahold of them.
只是当时我无法联系到他们。
I figured I wouldn’t been able to because everywhere sold out of that Gretsch model when the song blew up.
我想我不可能这么做，因为当这首歌火爆时，所有地方的 Gretsch 模型都卖光了。
It was a real pop…
这是真正的流行音乐……
But I couldn’t get ahold of him.
但我无法联系到他。
So this guy, Beard Guitar, Paul Beard in Maryland, he reached out, fixed my Gretsch, and then gave me one of these and made it with a…
所以这个家伙，Beard Guitar，马里兰州的 Paul Beard，他伸出手来，修好了我的 Gretsch，然后给了我其中一个，并用……做了它。
But it’s all handmade and all.
但这都是手工制作的。
It’s like [inaudible 02:07:20].
就像 [听不清 02:07:20]。
[inaudible 02:07:21].
[听不清 02:07:21]。
Yeah, you can whack somebody over the head with it pretty good [inaudible 02:07:24].
是的，你可以用它敲打某人的头，这相当不错 [听不清 02:07:24]。
Yeah, it’s nice and heavy.
是的，它又好又重。
But yeah, he makes them all by hand.
但是，是的，他都是手工制作的。
Nice.
不错。
A little family owned place, and-
一个家庭拥有的小地方，还有——
I know nothing about resonated guitars.
我对共鸣吉他一无所知。
2:07:31 Is that like, do you play regular acoustic?
是这样的，你演奏普通的原声音乐吗？
Yeah, it’s just basically a regular acoustic, it’s just a full step down.
是的，它基本上只是一个普通的原声音乐，只是一个完整的降级。
2:07:38 It’s the only difference.
这是唯一的区别。
I’ve just got it tuned all the way down.
我刚刚把它调到最低。
Is that it?
是这样吗？
2:07:43 Because there’s also the…
因为还有……
There’s whole vibe to it.
它有一种完整的氛围。
Oh.
哦。
2:07:47 Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Well, the body’s different.
嗯，身体不一样。
So you can see it’s got a solid, instead of it being a hollow body, like an acoustic, it’s got that.
所以你可以看到它是一个实心体，而不是一个空心体，就像原声音箱一样，它是这样的。
It almost looks like a hubcap, that black plate.
它看起来几乎像一个轮毂盖，那个黑色的板。
And all the chord, that’s all the same.
所有的和弦，都是一样的。
2:07:56 It’s just a step down.
这只是一个台阶而已。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
2:07:59 Yeah, it’s just the same.
是的，都是一样的。
Yeah, I wouldn’t be smart enough to play anything special.
是的，我不够聪明，无法玩任何特别的东西。
It’s just a regular old guitar.
这只是一把普通的旧吉他。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
2:08:04 There’s a different vibe to it.
它有一种不同的氛围。
Yeah, well, I like that-
是的，嗯，我喜欢这样——
It’s somehow cooler.
不知怎的，这更酷了。
Well, I’m real fond of the older music.
嗯，我真的很喜欢老音乐。
2:08:08 So where all my family’s from, so my dad was adopted, so I don’t have any…
所以我所有的家人都来自哪里，所以我的父亲是被收养的，所以我没有……
Lunsford’s not really even a real last name to me.
伦斯福德对我来说甚至不是一个真正的姓氏。
It was just my grandparents that adopted my dad.
只有我的祖父母收养了我的父亲。
So all of my family’s Ingle, it’s I-N-G-L- E.
所以我全家都是 Ingle，就是 I-N-G-L-E。
That’s my real, that’s on my mom’s side of my family.
那是我的真实，那是我妈妈那边的家人。
And they’re all from this place about 20 miles from where the Carter family was from.
他们都来自这个距离卡特一家大约20英里的地方。
So all that old Virginia bluegrass folk music stuff.
所有那些古老的弗吉尼亚蓝草民间音乐的东西。
And so I was just always attracted to that, and so I like the resonator a full step down because to me, it gives it that old sound.
所以我总是被它所吸引，所以我喜欢谐振器，因为对我来说，它给了它那种古老的声音。
A lot of the instruments back then had bad, dull strings, and they were older, and they were out of a tune a little bit and stuff, and I just, I listen to a lot of that type of music.
那时很多乐器的琴弦都不好、沉闷，而且它们比较旧，而且有点走调之类的东西，而我只是，我听了很多这种类型的音乐。
2:09:03 So I like the strings being a little out of tune and dull, and not everything, and just that.
所以我喜欢弦乐有点跑调和沉闷，但不是一切，仅此而已。
Yeah, that’s why I was so attracted to it.
是的，这就是为什么我如此被它吸引。
Plus, some of the old blues players like playing the Dobro and stuff.
另外，一些老布鲁斯乐手喜欢演奏多布罗之类的东西。
But that’s why I wanted to get the resonator, was just because of that old…
但这就是我想买共鸣器的原因，只是因为它太旧了……
That’s even why I had to use my grandpa’s name as an alias, but that Oliver Anthony Music is really supposed to represent old music from 1930s Virginia or something like…
这就是为什么我不得不使用我祖父的名字作为别名，但 Oliver Anthony Music 确实应该代表 20 世纪 30 年代弗吉尼亚州的旧音乐或类似的东西......
It’s got that type of feel to it, or at least in its core.
它有这种感觉，或者至少在其核心。
It feels like from another time, but it also feels timeless.
感觉就像来自另一个时代，但又感觉永恒。
It’s also that my music catalog is so limited of what I listen to, that a lot of what’s in my head, because you think about when you’re writing songs and coming up with chord progressions and stuff, whether you realize it or not, it’s all being influenced off of other songs.
而且我的音乐目录对我听的东西非常有限，我脑子里的很多东西，因为你会想到当你写歌曲并想出和弦进行之类的东西时，无论你是否意识到，这一切都会受到其他歌曲的影响。
2:09:42 So when you only have a lot of older music, and a little bit of metal and stuff in there, it’s like there’s not really a whole lot.
因此，当你只有很多老音乐、一点金属音乐之类的东西时，就好像没有很多。
It’s like that.
就是这样。
It’s going to sound that way, I guess, just anyway, what’s in your head already, but-
我想，听起来会是这样，无论如何，你脑子里已经有什么了，但是——
So you’re going to go out there a little bit this year.
所以今年你会去那里一些。
2:10:08 What are some things you’re looking forward to?
您期待什么？
You’re going to travel a bit, you’re going to play a bit.
你会去旅行一点，你会玩一点。
The idea is to go to a town, like let’s just use Iowa as an example.
我们的想法是去一个城镇，就像我们以爱荷华州为例。
2:10:19 Instead of the big city in Iowa, playing at the venue where everybody books, let’s find a farm field, 45 minutes outside of that big city, figure out the ingress, egress, the security, find a good promoter that can, a show organizer basically that has experience to where it’s still professional and it’s done correctly.
不是在爱荷华州的大城市，在每个人都预订的场地比赛，让我们找到一个距离大城市 45 分钟路程的农田，弄清楚入口、出口、安全，找到一个好的发起人，一个可以的、一个基本上有经验、专业且做得正确的演出组织者。
But establish a new venue space that can’t be put under contract by a monopoly, that any artist can go play without.
但要建立一个新的场地空间，不能由垄断者签订合同，任何艺术家都可以在没有场地的情况下进行表演。
If all these musicians are sick of Ticketmaster and Live Nation, then let’s just start playing in fields and on main streets, and set these venues up, and establish them correctly and professionally to where they exist as their own space.
如果所有这些音乐家都厌倦了 Ticketmaster 和 Live Nation，那么让我们开始在田野和主要街道上演奏，并设置这些场地，并正确和专业地将它们建立为自己的空间。
And then imagine the economic impact that would provide to a town that otherwise would never…
然后想象一下这将为一个小镇带来的经济影响，否则这个小镇永远不会……
And imagine what it…
想象一下它是什么......
2:11:12 You want to talk about trying to give blue collar people some hope, or give them some relatability, or do anything for them.
你想谈论尝试给蓝领人们一些希望，或者给他们一些相关性，或者为他们做任何事情。
Bring a big band to their town that they would otherwise have to drive an hour and a half somewhere to see and couldn’t even afford the tickets to start with.
带一支大乐队到他们的小镇，否则他们就得开车一个半小时才能到某个地方去看，而且甚至买不起门票。
My tour last year, pretty much every show we did that was mine had a $25 ticket option and everybody scoffed at that.
去年我的巡演中，几乎我们所做的每一场演出都有 25 美元的门票选项，但每个人都对此嗤之以鼻。
And I was basically made fun of for that by people in the professional space, even people I was working with.
我基本上因此被专业领域的人取笑，甚至是和我一起工作的人。
They just thought it was so stupid.
他们只是觉得这太愚蠢了。
But you know what?
但你知道吗？
There were people at my shows that came up, and the kids were wearing hand-me-down clothes, and you could tell they didn’t have any money.
我的演出中有人出现，孩子们穿着旧衣服，你可以看出他们没有钱。
And they said it meant a lot to them that they could come and that there was a $25 option.
他们说，他们能来，而且有 25 美元的选择，对他们来说意义重大。
And I’ll continue to do these shows like this to where any band that wants to come play the show, all their expenses are covered, and I’m sure there’s some kind of tax write-off component to them for them.
我将继续像这样对任何想要来演出的乐队进行这些演出，他们的所有费用都会得到补偿，而且我确信他们会得到某种税收冲销部分。
2:12:02 But basically they can come in, do the show, help bring in a crowd.
但基本上他们可以进来，做表演，帮助吸引观众。
I’m taking the risk, setting the venue up and establishing it.
我正在冒险，布置场地并建立它。
The venue will be owned or managed by either the town, or the farm, or whatever, but it’ll be in a non-profit.
该场馆将由城镇、农场或其他任何机构拥有或管理，但它将是非营利组织。
And then that space will always exist for people to rent.
然后这个空间将永远存在供人们出租。
And the idea is this, man, imagine if I could do 20 of these a year, even if that’s all I can get done.
这个想法是这样的，伙计，想象一下如果我每年能做 20 个这样的事情，即使这就是我能做的全部。
That’s 20 places that will always have music, and will always have a center where people can go and build the sense of community we talked about.
这 20 个地方永远会有音乐，并且永远有一个中心，人们可以去那里建立我们谈到的社区意识。
It’s almost like a sanctuary if you want to call it that, but it’s just a space that can’t be perverted by corporate America, and just a place where people can go and do all these things that we want to do.
如果你想这么称呼它的话，它几乎就像一个避难所，但它只是一个不能被美国企业界扭曲的空间，而且只是一个人们可以去做所有我们想做的事情的地方。
What are you excited for this year?
今年你对什么感到兴奋？
Obviously you’re going to travel overseas and sounds like you got some other cool stuff you’re going to do.
显然你要去海外旅行，听起来你还有其他一些很酷的事情要做。
Yeah, I’m going to see some world leaders, hopefully not end up in prison anywhere.
是的，我会见一些世界领导人，希望不会在任何地方入狱。
2:12:55 Part of that, honestly, I’m excited, India, to see the same humans, but in very different parts of the world.
老实说，印度，我很高兴看到同样的人类，但在世界不同的地方。
I’m not a travel guy, but I love seeing humans, that there’s a lot of us humans all over the place, and they’re very different, and they have funny accents, and just funny way of being.
我不是一个旅游爱好者，但我喜欢看到人类，到处都有很多人类，他们非常不同，他们有有趣的口音，而且生活方式也很有趣。
So I’m excited to take it all in because I fundamentally love people.
所以我很高兴能接受这一切，因为我从根本上爱人们。
Yeah, man, I would definitely say if you’re ever over towards Virginia or West Virginia, either one there, yeah, it’d be cool to spend a couple days out in the woods, or a day out in the woods and do…
是的，伙计，我肯定会说，如果你曾经去过弗吉尼亚州或西弗吉尼亚州，无论是那里，是的，在树林里度过几天，或者在树林里度过一天，然后做......
2:13:29 I’m really new to the whole psilocybin thing, but I have tried a few smaller doses of it, actually to help with being up on stage and all, and it’s an interesting thing, but-
我对裸盖菇素这件事真的很陌生，但我尝试过一些较小剂量的它，实际上是为了帮助登上舞台等等，这是一件有趣的事情，但是-
It’s great.
太棒了。
Yeah, definitely the dogs and the woods part, I got you on that.
是的，绝对是狗和树林部分，我明白了。
2:13:54 [inaudible 02:13:59]-
[听不清 02:13:59]-
I would love to join in.
我很想加入。
2:13:58 I’ve taken mushrooms a few times and listen, I usually just love everything anyway, but with mushrooms, you just love it a little bit more, especially out in nature.
我吃过几次蘑菇，听着，我通常什么都喜欢，但对于蘑菇，你会更喜欢它一点，尤其是在大自然中。
[inaudible 02:14:10].
[听不清 02:14:10]。
When I’m look out in nature, I’m just in awe of how incredibly beautiful it is.
当我眺望大自然时，我对它的美丽感到惊叹。
2:14:10 And just I could stare at a tree for hours, and then you take mushrooms and that tree starts having some more dynamism to it.
我可以盯着一棵树几个小时，然后你采摘蘑菇，那棵树就开始有了更多的活力。
So it’s just a little boost, but I don’t really care.
所以这只是一点点提升，但我并不在意。
Yeah, I get into this crazy, like I said, it’s only been a handful of times because I’ve…
是的，我陷入了这种疯狂，就像我说的，这只是少数几次，因为我……
2:14:28 I don’t know, it’s one of those things where it’s still a little unfamiliar to me, but talking about trees and psilocybin, you start to look in those trees and you think in their relative perspective of time, because they’re constantly moving around and growing, and doing all these things, and you think about in their perspective, maybe we’re just moving way faster than their perception and they’re moving at just a normal speed.
我不知道，这是我仍然有点陌生的事情之一，但是谈论树木和裸盖菇素，你开始观察那些树木，你会从它们相对的时间角度思考，因为它们不断地移动和生长，做所有这些事情，你会从他们的角度思考，也许我们只是比他们的感知移动得快，而它们以正常的速度移动。
It’s just you get into all these crazy trains of thought when you sit out in the woods on that stuff, but-
只是当你坐在树林里思考那些东西时，你会陷入所有这些疯狂的想法，但是-
A hundred percent, man.
百分之一百，伙计。
2:15:05 Maybe that’s the history of life.
也许这就是生命的历史。
Humans have some chance of destroying 95, 99% of the population when nuclear weapons, and the trees will remain, and they will reconstruct the environment of earth, and help the few humans that remain to survive.
当核武器出现时，人类有可能毁灭95%、99%的人口，而树木将留下来，它们将重建地球的环境，帮助仅存的少数人类生存。
And it’ll be the fucking trees that we’d be grateful for, their actual deep, ancient wisdom.
我们要感激的是这些该死的树木，它们真正深刻、古老的智慧。
So maybe they’re the intelligent ones, maybe we are the idiots.
所以也许他们是聪明人，也许我们是白痴。
You’re out in nature like that, and just looking and studying the way all those systems work with soil, and trees, and animals, and how it all just integrates in together so perfectly.
你在这样的大自然中，只是观察和研究所有这些系统如何与土壤、树木和动物一起工作，以及它们如何完美地整合在一起。
2:15:37 It does give you some sense of peace that maybe there is some system at place that’s out of our hands, that can just help us with our faults and our repercussions.
它确实给你一种平静的感觉，也许有一些系统不在我们的掌控之中，它只能帮助我们解决我们的错误和后果。
And again, for me, just, yeah, I think just being out there, especially now looking at it through the lens of God, it helps.
再说一遍，对我来说，是的，我认为只要走出去，尤其是现在通过上帝的镜头来看待它，就会有所帮助。
I’ve found no greater peace than just being out in the woods and praying or just trying to focus my mind on that.
我发现没有什么比在树林里祈祷或只是试图将注意力集中在这件事上更平静的了。
But yeah, I would love for you to come up there sometime and-
但是，是的，我希望你能有时间到那里去——
I’m 100% will, and visit.
我百分百愿意去拜访。
2:16:19 See, feeling peaceful out in Virginia in the woods is easy.
看，在弗吉尼亚州的树林里感到平静是很容易的。
Try doing it in the Amazon jungle when a-
尝试在亚马逊丛林中这样做，当-
Oh, dude I-
哦，伙计我-
…
……
2:16:29 giant ant crawl and just bites you.
巨大的蚂蚁爬行并咬你。
Dude, I would do anything to go to the Amazon.
伙计，我愿意做任何事情去亚马逊。
And all the peace is gone.
所有的平静都消失了。
2:16:33 You’re like, “Motherfucker, what is…” And then a second one joins in, kills the first one and bites you again.
你会说，“混蛋，这是什么……”然后第二个也加入进来，杀死了第一个并再次咬你。
And then you’re like, “Okay, nature is not all-
然后你会说，“好吧，自然并不全是——
Yeah, it’s not.
是的，不是。
There is harmony to it, but part of the harmony is the violence.
它有和谐，但和谐的一部分是暴力。
Yeah.
是的。
It’s just the reality of it.
这就是现实。
2:16:55 It’s sex and violence.
这是性和暴力。
I guess that’s the thing about it though, is it has all the same components of humanity, just almost to a comical level.
我想这就是它的问题所在，它具有所有相同的人性成分，只是几乎达到了滑稽的水平。
The real comedy’s the monkeys up in the trees.
真正的喜剧是树上的猴子。
2:17:07 It’s like little humans and they’re arguing, screaming at each other, throwing stuff, getting into fights.
就像小人类一样，他们会争吵、互相尖叫、扔东西、打架。
It’s like reality TV, but more pure, more real, more distilled down its fundamentals.
它就像真人秀，但更纯粹、更真实、更精炼其基本原理。
We are that.
我们就是那样。
We put on clothes these days, and have fancy words that we say to each other, and look all sexy on Instagram, but we’re the same monkeys, apes.
这些天我们穿上衣服，互相说一些花哨的话，在 Instagram 上看起来很性感，但我们还是同样的猴子、猩猩。
It’s like the old lobsters, but it really is true.
就像老龙虾一样，但确实如此。
2:17:40 Yeah, we’re all on that same operating system, in a way.
是的，在某种程度上，我们都使用同一个操作系统。
Brother, this was a huge honor.
兄弟，这是一个巨大的荣誉。
2:17:53 I don’t have the words to describe how incredible this was, and I think it was just fun.
我无法用言语来形容这是多么令人难以置信，我认为这很有趣。
It was really fun talking to you.
和你聊天真的很有趣。
Total honor to be able to come on here for me as well, and especially just to get to meet you in real life and see, you are what I expected you to be, in a good way.
我也非常荣幸能够来到这里，尤其是能够在现实生活中见到你，并看到，你就是我所期望的那样，以一种很好的方式。
2:18:04 You just don’t ever…
你只是从来没有……
Yeah, you’re a good dude.
是的，你是个好人。
[inaudible 02:18:20].
[听不清 02:18:20]。
So I appreciate what you’re doing [inaudible 02:18:22]-
所以我很欣赏你所做的事情 [听不清 02:18:22]-
I got to show you the sex dungeon downstairs-
我得带你看看楼下的性爱地牢-
Nice.
不错。
2:18:23 Heck yeah, [inaudible 02:18:26]-
哎呀，是的，[听不清 02:18:26]-
…
……
2:18:26 where I keep sex slaves, it’s very different.
在我饲养性奴隶的地方，情况非常不同。
No.
不。
Yeah, man.
是的，伙计。
Yeah.
是的。
All right.
好吧。
2:18:29 Time to wake up.
是时候醒来了。
Let’s go back to reality.
让我们回到现实。
2:18:34 Thanks for listening to this conversation with Oliver Anthony.
感谢您收听与奥利弗·安东尼的对话。
To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description.
为了支持这个播客，请在说明中查看我们的赞助商。
And now let me leave you with some words from George Orwell, “Political language is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind.” Thank you for listening, and [inaudible 02:18:58] hope to see you next time.
现在让我向你们告别乔治·奥威尔的话：“政治语言的目的是让谎言听起来更真实，让谋杀听起来更受人尊敬，让纯粹的风声显得更坚实。”感谢您的聆听，[听不清 02:18:58] 希望下次见到您。
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