詹娜·莱文：黑洞、虫洞、外星人、悖论与额外维度

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00:00 black holes, curve space and time around them, in the way that we’ve been describing, things fall along the curves in space.

黑洞，围绕它们的曲线空间和时间，就像我们所描述的那样，事物沿着空间曲线下落。

If the black holes move around, the curves have to follow them, right?

如果黑洞移动，曲线就必须跟随它们，对吗？

But they can’t travel faster than the speed of light either.

但它们的运动速度也不能超过光速。

So what happens is black holes, let’s say move around, maybe I’ve got two black holes in orbit around each other, that can happen.

所以发生的事情是黑洞，比如说四处移动，也许我有两个黑洞在彼此围绕的轨道上，这可能会发生。

It takes a while.

这需要一段时间。

A wave is created in the actual shape of space, and that wave follows the black holes as black holes are undulating.

波是在空间的实际形状中产生的，并且当黑洞波动时，该波跟随黑洞。

Eventually those two black holes will merge.

最终这两个黑洞将会合并。

And as we were talking about, it doesn’t take an infinite time, even though there’s time dilation because they’re both so big, they’re really deforming spacetime a lot.

正如我们所说，它并不需要无限的时间，尽管存在时间膨胀，因为它们都太大了，它们确实使时空变形了很多。

I don’t have a little tiny marble falling across an event horizon.

我没有一颗小弹珠落在事件视界上。

I have two event horizons, and in the simulations you can see a bobble and they merge together and they make one bigger black hole.

我有两个事件视界，在模拟中你可以看到一个气泡，它们合并在一起，形成一个更大的黑洞。

00:49 And then it radiates in the gravitational waves.

然后它在引力波中辐射。

It radiates away all those imperfections and it settles down to one quiescent, perfectly silent black hole that’s spinning.

它辐射掉了所有这些缺陷，最终形成一个静止的、完全安静的旋转黑洞。

Beautiful stuff.

美丽的东西。

And it emits E equals MC squared energy.

它发射E等于MC平方的能量。

So the mass of the final black hole will be less than the sum of the two starter black holes.

因此最终黑洞的质量将小于两个初始黑洞的质量之和。

And that energy is radiated away in this ringing of spacetime.

这种能量在时空的鸣响中被辐射出去。

It’s really important to emphasize that it’s not light.

需要强调的是，它并不轻。

None of this has to do literally with light that we can detect with normal things that detect light.

这些都与我们可以用普通物体检测到的光无关。

X-rays, form of light, gamma rays are a form of light, infrared, optical.

X射线是光的一种形式，伽马射线是光、红外线、光学的一种形式。

This whole electromagnetic spectrum, none of it is emitted as light.

整个电磁频谱，没有一个以光的形式发射。

It’s completely dark.

天完全黑了。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

It’s only emitted in the rippling of the shape of space.

只在空间形状的涟漪中散发出来。

01:34 A lot of times it’s likened closer to sound.

很多时候它被比作更接近声音。

Technically, we’ve kind of argued, I mean, I haven’t done an anatomical calculation, but if you’re near enough to two colliding black holes, they actually ring spacetime in the human auditory range.

从技术上讲，我们有点争论，我的意思是，我还没有进行解剖学计算，但如果你距离两个碰撞的黑洞足够近，它们实际上会在人类听觉范围内产生时空铃声。

The frequency is actually in the human auditory range, that the shape of space could squeeze and stretch your eardrum even in vacuum, and you could hear, literally hear these waves ringing.

频率实际上在人类听觉范围内，即使在真空中，空间的形状也可以挤压和拉伸你的耳膜，你可以听到，确实听到这些波的响声。

The following is a conversation with Janna Levin, a theoretical physicist and cosmologist specializing in black holes, cosmology of extra dimensions, topology of the universe, and gravitational waves in spacetime.

以下是与 Janna Levin 的对话，Janna Levin 是一位理论物理学家和宇宙学家，专门研究黑洞、额外维度宇宙学、宇宙拓扑和时空引力波。

02:04 She has also written some incredible books including; How the Universe Got Its Spots, on the topic of the shape and the size of the universe, A Madman Dreams of Turing Machines, on the topic of genius madness and the limits of knowledge, Black Hole Blues and Other Songs From Outer Space, on the topic of LIGO and the detection of gravitational waves, and Black Hole Survival Guide, all about black holes.

她还写了一些令人难以置信的书，包括： 《宇宙是如何斑点的》，主题是宇宙的形状和大小；《疯子的图灵机之梦》，主题是天才的疯狂和知识的极限；《黑洞蓝调和其他来自外太空的歌曲》，主题是 LIGO 和引力波探测；《黑洞生存指南》，主题都是关于黑洞。

This was a fun and fascinating conversation.

这是一次有趣而引人入胜的谈话。

This is the Lex Fridman podcast.

这是莱克斯·弗里德曼播客。

To support it.

为了支持它。

Please check out our sponsors in the description.

请在说明中查看我们的赞助商。

And now, dear friends, here’s Janna Levin.

现在，亲爱的朋友们，这是詹娜·莱文。

03:03 I should say that you sent me a message about not starting early in the morning, and that made me feel like we’re kindred spirits.

我应该说，你给我发了一条消息，说不要一大早出发，这让我觉得我们志趣相投。

You wrote to me, “When the great physicist Sidney Coleman was asked to attend a 9:00 AM meeting his reply was, ‘I can’t stay up that late.'”

您写信给我，“当伟大的物理学家西德尼·科尔曼被邀请参加上午 9:00 的会议时，他的回答是，‘我不能熬夜那么晚。’”

Yeah, classic.

是的，经典。

03:20 Sidney was beloved.

西德尼深受爱戴。

I think all the best thoughts, honestly, maybe the worst thoughts too, all come at night.

我认为所有最好的想法，老实说，也许还有最糟糕的想法，都在晚上出现。

03:23 There’s something about the night.

晚上有事。

Maybe it’s the silence.

也许这就是沉默。

Maybe it’s the peace all around.

也许这就是周围的和平。

Maybe it’s the darkness.

也许这就是黑暗。

And you could be with yourself and you can think deeply.

你可以和自己在一起，你可以深入思考。

I feel like they’re stolen hours in the middle of the night, because it’s not busy.

我觉得他们在半夜被偷了几个小时，因为那里并不忙。

03:38 Your gadgets aren’t pinging.

您的小工具没有 ping 通。

There’s really no pressure to do anything.

确实没有压力去做任何事情。

But I’m often awake in the middle of the night.

但我经常在半夜醒来。

And so it’s sort of like these extra hours of the day.

所以这有点像一天中的这些额外时间。

I think we were exchanging messages at 4:00 in the morning.

我想我们是在凌晨 4:00 交换消息的。

So in that way, many other ways were kindred spirits.

因此，许多其他方面都是志同道合的。

03:57 So let’s go in one of the coolest objects in the universe, black holes.

那么，让我们走进宇宙中最酷的天体之一——黑洞。

What are they?

这些是什么？

And maybe even a good way to start is to talk about how are they formed.

也许一个好的开始方式就是谈论它们是如何形成的。

In a way, people often confuse how they’re formed with the concept of the black hole in the first place.

在某种程度上，人们常常将它们的形成方式与黑洞的概念混淆。

04:13 So when black holes were first proposed, Einstein was very surprised that such a solution could be found so quickly, but really thought nature would protect us from their formation.

因此，当黑洞首次被提出时，爱因斯坦非常惊讶能够如此快地找到这样的解决方案，但他确实认为大自然会保护我们免受黑洞形成的影响。

And then nature thinks of a way.

然后大自然就会想办法。

Nature thinks a way to make these crazy objects, which is to kill off a few stars.

大自然想出了一个方法来制造这些疯狂的物体，那就是杀死一些恒星。

But then I think that there’s a confusion that dead stars, these very, very massive stars that die, are synonymous with the phenomenon of black hole.

但后来我认为，死亡恒星，这些非常非常大的死亡恒星，是黑洞现象的代名词，这是一种混淆。

And it’s really not the case.

事实并非如此。

Black holes are more general and more fundamental than just the death state of a star.

黑洞比恒星的死亡状态更普遍、更基本。

But even the history of how people realize that stars could form black holes is quite fascinating because the entire idea really just started as a thought experiment.

但即使是人们如何认识到恒星可以形成黑洞的历史也相当令人着迷，因为整个想法实际上只是从一个思想实验开始的。

05:05 And if you think of it’s 1915, 1916, when Einstein fully describes relativity in a way that’s the canonical formulation.

如果你想想那是 1915 年、1916 年，当时爱因斯坦以规范表述的方式完整地描述了相对论。

It was a lot of changing back and forth before then.

在此之前，已经发生了很多来回变化。

And it’s World War I, And he gets a message from the eastern front from a friend of his, Karl Schwarzschild, who solved Einstein’s equations between sitting in the trenches and cannon fire, it was joked that he was calculating ballistic trajectories.

那是第一次世界大战，他从东部前线收到了他的朋友卡尔·史瓦西（Karl Schwarzschild）的消息，史瓦西解决了爱因斯坦坐在战壕和炮火之间的方程，有人开玩笑说他正在计算弹道轨迹。

He’s also perusing the proceedings of the Prussian Academy of Sciences, as you do.

和你一样，他也在仔细阅读普鲁士科学院的会议记录。

And he was an astronomer who had enlisted in his forties.

他是一位四十多岁应征入伍的天文学家。

And he finds this really remarkable solution to Einstein’s equations.

他发现了爱因斯坦方程的这个非常了不起的解。

And it’s the first exact solution.

这是第一个精确解。

He doesn’t call it a black hole, it’s not called a black hole for decades.

他没有称其为黑洞，几十年来它都没有被称为黑洞。

But what I love about what Schwarzschild did is it’s a thought experiment.

但我喜欢史瓦西所做的事情是因为它是一个思想实验。

It’s not about observations, it’s not about making these things in nature.

这与观察无关，与在自然界中制造这些东西无关。

06:03 It’s really just about the idea.

这实际上只是关于想法。

He sets up this completely untenable situation.

他造成了这种完全站不住脚的局面。

He says, “Imagine I crush all the mass of a star to a point.

他说：“想象一下，我将一颗恒星的所有质量压碎成一个点。

Don’t ask how that’s done, because that’s really absurd, but let’s just pretend and let’s just imagine that that’s a scenario.” And then he wants to decide what happens to spacetime if I set up this confounding, but somehow very simple scenario.

不要问这是怎么做到的，因为这真的很荒谬，但让我们假装一下，想象一下这是一个场景。”然后他想决定如果我设置这个令人困惑但又非常简单的场景，时空会发生什么。

And really what Einstein’s equations were telling everybody at the time was that matter and energy, curved space and time, and then curved spacetime tells matter and energy how to fall once the spacetime is shaped.

事实上，爱因斯坦方程当时告诉每个人的是，物质和能量、弯曲的空间和时间，然后弯曲的时空告诉物质和能量一旦时空成形后如何下落。

So he finds this beautiful solution.

所以他找到了这个美妙的解决方案。

And the most amazing thing about a solution is he finds this demarcation, which is the event horizon, which is the region beyond which not even light can escape.

关于解决方案最令人惊奇的事情是他找到了这个分界线，这就是事件视界，这是一个连光都无法逃脱的区域。

And if you were to ask me today, all these decade, over a hundred years later, I would say that is the black hole.

如果你今天问我，这十年，一百多年后，我会说那就是黑洞。

07:01 The black hole is not the mass crushed to a point.

黑洞并不是被压成一点的质量。

The black hole is the event horizon.

黑洞就是事件视界。

And the event horizon is really just a point in spacetime or a region at spacetime.

事件视界实际上只是时空中的一个点或时空中的一个区域。

It’s actually in this case, a surface in spacetime.

在这种情况下，它实际上是时空中的一个表面。

And it marks a separation in events, which is why it’s called an event horizon.

它标志着事件的分离，这就是为什么它被称为事件视界。

Everything outside is causally separated from the inside, insofar as what’s inside the event horizon can’t affect events outside.

外部的一切都与内部因果分离，只要事件视界内的事物不会影响外部的事件。

What’s outside can affect events inside.

外部事物可以影响内部事件。

I can throw a probe into a black hole and cause something to happen on the inside.

我可以将探测器扔进黑洞并导致内部发生一些事情。

But the opposite isn’t true.

但事实恰恰相反。

Somebody who fell in can’t send a probe out.

掉进去的人无法发出探测器。

And this one way aspect really is what’s profound about the black hole.

这一单向方面确实是黑洞的深刻之处。

07:48 Sometimes we talk about the black holes being nothing because at the event horizon, there’s really nothing there.

有时我们说黑洞什么都不是，因为在事件视界，那里真的什么都没有。

Sometimes when we think about black holes, we want to imagine a really dense dead star.

有时，当我们想到黑洞时，我们想要想象一颗非常致密的死亡恒星。

But if you go up to the event horizon, it’s an empty region of spacetime.

但如果你到达事件视界，那是一片空旷的时空区域。

It’s more of a place than it is a thing.

它更像是一个地方，而不是一个东西。

And Einstein found this fascinating.

爱因斯坦发现这很有趣。

He helped get the work published, but he really didn’t think these would form in nature.

他帮助发表了这项工作，但他真的不认为这些会在自然界中形成。

I doubt Karl Schwarzschild did either.

我怀疑卡尔史瓦西也这么做过。

I think they thought they were solving theoretical mathematical problems, but not describing what turned out to be the end state of gravitational collapse.

我认为他们认为自己正在解决理论数学问题，但没有描述引力坍缩的最终状态。

And maybe the purpose of the thought experiment was to find the limitations of the theory.

也许思想实验的目的是发现该理论的局限性。

08:31 So you find the most extreme versions in order to understand where it breaks down.

因此，您需要找到最极端的版本才能了解其故障所在。

And it just so happens in this case that might actually predict these extreme kinds of objects.

在这种情况下，它实际上可能会预测这些极端类型的物体。

It does both.

它两者兼而有之。

08:48 So it also describes the sun from far away.

所以它也描述了来自远处的太阳。

So the same solution does a great job helping us understand the Earth’s orbit around the sun.

因此，同样的解决方案可以很好地帮助我们了解地球绕太阳的轨道。

It’s incredible.

太不可思议了。

It does a great job.

它做得很好。

It’s almost overkill.

这几乎是矫枉过正了。

You don’t really need to be that precise as relativity.

你真的不需要像相对论那么精确。

And yes, it predicts the phenomenon of black holes, but doesn’t really explain how nature would form them.

是的，它预测了黑洞的现象，但并没有真正解释自然是如何形成黑洞的。

But then it also, on top of that, does signal the breakdown of the theory.

但除此之外，它也确实标志着该理论的崩溃。

I mean, you’re quite right about that.

我的意思是，你说得很对。

It actually says, oh man, but you go all the way towards the center and yeah, this doesn’t sound right anymore.

它实际上是在说，天哪，但是你一路向中心走，是的，这听起来不再正确了。

09:25 Sometimes I liken it to it’s like a dying man marking in the dirt that something’s gone wrong here.

有时我把它比作一个垂死的人在泥土上标记这里出了问题。

Right?

正确的？

It’s signaling that there’s some culprit, there’s something wrong in the theory.

这表明有罪魁祸首，理论有问题。

And even Roger Penrose who did this general work trying to understand the formation of black holes from gravitational collapse, he thought, oh yeah, there’s a singularity that’s inevitable.

即使罗杰·彭罗斯（Roger Penrose）做了这项一般性工作，试图理解引力坍缩形成的黑洞，他也认为，哦，是的，有一个不可避免的奇点。

There’s no way around it once you form a black hole.

一旦形成黑洞，就没有办法绕过它。

But he said, this is probably just a shortcoming of the fact that we’ve forgotten to include quantum mechanics, and that when we do, we’ll understand this differently.

但他说，这可能只是我们忘记包括量子力学这一事实的一个缺点，当我们这样做时，我们会对这一点有不同的理解。

So according to him, the closer you get to the singularity, the more quantum mechanics comes into play, and therefore there is no singularity.

因此，根据他的说法，越接近奇点，量子力学就越发挥作用，因此奇点并不存在。

10:07 There’s something else.

还有别的事。

I think everybody would say that.

我想每个人都会这么说。

10:14 I think everybody would say, the closer you get to the singularity, for sure, you have to include quantum mechanics.

我想每个人都会说，越接近奇点，当然就必须包括量子力学。

You just can’t consistently talk about magnifying such small scales, having such enormous ruptures and curvatures and energy scales and not include quantum mechanics, that that’s just inconsistent with the world as we understand it.

你不能始终如一地谈论放大如此小的尺度，拥有如此巨大的断裂、曲率和能量尺度，而不包括量子力学，这与我们所理解的世界不一致。

So you’ve described the brain breaking idea that a black hole is not so much as super dense matter as it’s sometimes described, but it’s more akin to a region of spacetime, but even more so just nothing.

所以你描述了一个令人震惊的想法，即黑洞并不像有时描述的那样是超密集物质，但它更类似于时空区域，但更重要的是什么都没有。

10:38 It’s nothing.

没什么。

That’s the thing you seem to like to say.

这就是你似乎喜欢说的话。

I do.

我愿意。

10:59 I do like to say that black holes are no thing.

我确实想说黑洞不是东西。

No thing.

没有什么。

They’re nothing.

他们什么都不是。

Okay, so what does that [inaudible 00:11:06]?

好的，那么这是什么 [听不清 00:11:06]？

And that’s what I mean, that’s the more profound aspect of the black hole.

这就是我的意思，这就是黑洞更深刻的一面。

11:06 So you asked originally, how do they form?

所以你最初问的是，它们是如何形成的？

And I think that even when you try to form them in messy astrophysical systems, there’s still nothing at the end of the day left behind.

我认为，即使你试图在混乱的天体物理系统中形成它们，最终仍然什么也没有留下。

And this was a very big surprise, even though Einstein accepted that this was a true prediction, he didn’t think that they’d be made.

这是一个非常大的惊喜，尽管爱因斯坦承认这是一个真实的预测，但他并不认为它们会被做出。

And it was quite astounding that people like Oppenheimer, actually it’s probably Oppenheimer’s most important theoretical work, who were thinking about nuclear physics and quantum mechanics but in the context of these kind of utopian questions.

令人震惊的是，像奥本海默这样的人，实际上这可能是奥本海默最重要的理论工作，他们在思考核物理和量子力学，但在这些乌托邦问题的背景下。

Why do stars shine?

星星为什么会发光？

Why is the sun radiant and hot and this amazing source of light?

为什么太阳如此光芒四射、炙热而令人惊叹的光源？

And it was people like Oppenheimer who began to ask the question, well, could stars collapse to form black holes?

正是像奥本海默这样的人开始提出这样的问题：恒星是否会坍塌形成黑洞？

Could they become so dense that eventually not even light would escape?

它们会变得如此致密以至于最终连光都无法逃逸吗？

12:07 And that’s why I think people think that black holes are these dense objects.

这就是为什么我认为人们认为黑洞是这些致密物体。

That’s often how it’s described.

通常是这样描述的。

But actually what happens, these very massive stars, they’re burning thermonuclear fuel.

但实际上发生了什么，这些非常大的恒星，它们正在燃烧热核燃料。

There are earth fault of thermonuclear fuel they’re burning, and emitting energy and E equals MC squared energy.

它们燃烧的热核燃料存在接地故障，并且释放能量，E 等于 MC 平方能量。

So it’s fusing, it’s a fusion bomb.

所以它是聚变的，它是聚变炸弹。

It’s a constantly going thermonuclear bomb, and eventually it’s going to run out of fuel.

这是一颗不断运行的热核炸弹，最终它会耗尽燃料。

It’s going to run out of hydrogen, helium stuff to fuse.

它将耗尽用于聚变的氢、氦等物质。

It hits an iron core.

它击中了铁芯。

Iron, to go past iron with fusion is actually energetically expensive, so it’s no longer going to do that so easily.

铁，通过聚变超越铁实际上在能量上是昂贵的，所以它不再那么容易做到这一点。

So suddenly it’s run out of fuel.

突然间它就耗尽了燃料。

And if the star is very, very, very massive, much more massive than our sun, maybe 20, 30 times the mass of our sun, it’ll collapse under its own weight.

如果恒星的质量非常非常非常大，比我们的太阳质量大得多，也许是太阳质量的 20 到 30 倍，它就会在自身重量的作用下坍缩。

And that collapse is incredibly fast and dramatic, and it creates a shockwave.

这种崩溃的速度和戏剧性令人难以置信，并且产生了冲击波。

13:02 So that’s the supernova explosion.

这就是超新星爆炸。

So a lot of these, they rebound because once they crunch, they’ve reached a new critical capacity where they can reignite to higher elements, heavier elements, and that sets off a bomb essentially.

因此，其中很多会反弹，因为一旦它们被压缩，它们就达到了新的临界能力，可以重新点燃更高的元素、更重的元素，这本质上会引爆炸弹。

So the star explodes, helpfully, because that’s why you and I are here.

所以星星爆炸了，很有帮助，因为这就是你和我在这里的原因。

Because stars send their material back out into space and you and I get to be made of carbon and oxygen and all this good stuff.

因为恒星将它们的物质送回太空，而你和我就由碳和氧以及所有这些好东西组成。

We’re not just hydrogen.

我们不仅仅是氢。

So the suns do that for us.

所以太阳为我们做到了这一点。

13:35 And then what’s left sometimes ends at a neutron star, which is a very cool object, very fascinating object, super dense, but bigger than a black hole, meaning it’s not compact enough to become a black hole.

然后剩下的有时会在中子星处结束，这是一个非常酷的物体，非常迷人的物体，超级致密，但比黑洞大，这意味着它不够紧凑，不足以成为黑洞。

It’s an actual thing.

这是真实的事情。

A neutron star is a real thing.

中子星是真实存在的。

It’s like a giant neutron.

它就像一个巨大的中子。

Literally electrons get jammed into the protons and make this giant nucleus in this superconducting matter, very strange, amazing object.

从字面上看，电子被塞进质子中，并在超导物质中形成了这个巨大的原子核，这是一个非常奇怪、令人惊奇的物体。

But if it’s heavier than that, the core, and that’s heavier than twice the mass of the sun, it will become a black hole.

但如果它比核心重，并且比太阳质量的两倍还要重，它就会变成黑洞。

And Oppenheimer wrote this beautiful paper in 1939 with his student saying that they believed that the end state of gravitational collapse is actually a black hole.

奥本海默在 1939 年与他的学生写了这篇漂亮的论文，他们说他们相信引力坍缩的最终状态实际上是一个黑洞。

This is stunning and really a visionary conclusion.

这是令人震惊的，而且确实是一个富有远见的结论。

Now the paper is published the same day, the Nazis advance on Poland, and so it does not get a lot of fanfare in the newspapers.

现在，这篇论文发表的同一天，纳粹正向波兰挺进，因此报纸上并没有大张旗鼓地宣传它。

Yeah,

是的，

We think there’s a lot of drama today on social media.

我们认为今天社交媒体上有很多戏剧性的事情。

14:39 Imagine that.

想象一下。

Here’s a guy who predicts how actually in nature would be the formation of this most radical of object that broke even Einstein’s brain, while one of the most evil, if not the most evil humans in history, starting the first steps of a global war.

这个人预测，在自然界中，这个最激进的物体实际上会如何形成，甚至打破了爱因斯坦的大脑，而历史上最邪恶的人类之一，如果不是最邪恶的人类，将开始全球战争的第一步。

What I also love about that lesson is how agnostic science is.

我喜欢这堂课的另一个原因是科学是如何不可知论的。

15:02 Because he was asking these utopian questions, as were other people of the time, about the nuclear physics and stars.

因为他和当时的其他人一样，提出了这些关于核物理和恒星的乌托邦问题。

You might know this play Copenhagen by Michael Frayn.

你可能知道迈克尔·弗雷恩的这部戏剧《哥本哈根》。

There’s this line that he attributes to Bohr.

他将这句话归功于玻尔。

And Bohr was the great thinker of early foundations of quantum mechanics, Danish physicist, where Bohr says to his wife, nobody’s thought of a way to kill people using quantum mechanics.

玻尔是量子力学早期基础的伟大思想家，丹麦物理学家，玻尔对他的妻子说，没有人想到用量子力学杀人的方法。

Now of course, then there’s the nuclear bomb.

当然，现在还有核弹。

And what I love about this was the pressure scientists were under to do something with this nuclear physics and to enter this race over a nuclear weapon.

我喜欢的是科学家们面临的压力，要求他们在核物理学方面做一些事情，并参加这场核武器竞赛。

But really at the same time, 1939, really Oppenheimer’s thinking about black holes.

但实际上是在同一时间，即 1939 年，奥本海默真正开始思考黑洞。

There’s even a small line in Chris Nolan’s film.

克里斯·诺兰的电影中甚至有一句小台词。

It’s very hard to catch.

很难抓住。

There’s a reference to it in the film where they’re sort of joking, “Well, I guess nobody’s going to pay attention to your paper now,” because of the Nazi advance on Poland.

电影中提到了这一点，他们开玩笑说，“好吧，我想现在没有人会关注你的论文了，”因为纳粹向波兰推进。

That’s the other remarkable thing about Oppenheimer is he’s also a central figure in the construction of the bomb.

奥本海默的另一个值得注意的事情是他也是炸弹制造的核心人物。

Right?

正确的？

So it’s theory and experiment clashing together with the geopolitics.

所以这是理论和实验与地缘政治的冲突。

Exactly.

确切地。

16:14 So of course, Oppenheimer now known as the father of the atomic bomb.

当然，奥本海默现在被称为原子弹之父。

He talks about destroyers of worlds, but it’s the same technology.

他谈论世界毁灭者，但这是相同的技术。

And that’s what I mean by science is agnostic.

这就是我所说的科学是不可知论的意思。

Right?

正确的？

It’s the same technology overcoming a critical mass, igniting thermonuclear fusion.

这与克服临界质量、引发热核聚变的技术相同。

Eventually there was a fission, the original bomb was a fission bomb.

最终发生了裂变，原来的炸弹是裂变弹。

And fission was first shown by Lise Meitner who showed that a certain uranium, when you bombarded it with protons, broke into smaller pieces that were less than the uranium, right?

裂变最先由 Lise Meitner 提出，她证明某种铀，当你用质子轰击它时，会分裂成比铀还小的碎片，对吗？

So some of that mass, that E equals MC squared energy had escaped.

因此，E 等于 MC 平方能量的部分质量已经逃逸。

And it was the first kind of concrete demonstration of this, Einstein’s most famous equation.

这是爱因斯坦最著名的方程的第一种具体演示。

So all of this comes together, but the story of …

所以所有这些都聚集在一起，但是……的故事

They still weren’t called black holes.

它们仍然不被称为黑洞。

This is 1939.

这是1939年。

And they had these very long-winded ways of describing the end state, the catastrophic end state of gravitational collapse.

他们用非常冗长的方式来描述最终状态，即引力崩溃的灾难性最终状态。

17:14 But what you have to imagine is as this star collapses…

但你必须想象的是，当这颗恒星坍塌时……

So now what’s the sun?

那么现在太阳是什么？

The Sun’s a million and a half kilometers across.

太阳直径有一百万五公里。

So imagine a star much bigger than the sun, much bigger radius, and it’s so heavy.

想象一下一颗比太阳大得多、半径大得多、而且非常重的恒星。

It collapses.

它崩溃了。

It supernovas what’s left.

它使剩下的东西超新星。

It still maybe 10 times the mass of the sun, just what’s left in that core.

它的质量可能仍然是太阳质量的 10 倍，只是核心中剩下的质量。

And it continues to collapse.

而且它还在继续崩溃。

And when that reaches about 60 kilometers across, like just imagine 10 times the mass of the sun city sized, that is a really dense object.

当它的直径达到约 60 公里时，想象一下，质量是太阳城大小的 10 倍，这就是一个非常致密的物体。

And now the black hole essentially has begun to form meaning the curve in spacetime is so tremendous that not even light can escape.

现在黑洞基本上已经开始形成，这意味着时空的曲线是如此巨大，以至于连光都无法逃脱。

The event horizon forms but the event horizon is almost imprinted on the spacetime, because the star can’t sit there in that dense state any more than it can race outward at the speed of light.

事件视界形成了，但事件视界几乎印在了时空上，因为恒星不能以那种致密状态坐在那里，就像它不能以光速向外奔跑一样。

Because even light is forced to rain inwards.

因为即使是光也被迫向内倾泻而下。

18:08 So the star continues to fall, and that’s the magic part.

所以星星继续坠落，这就是神奇的部分。

The star leaves the event horizon behind and it continues to fall, and it falls into the interior of the black hole where it goes.

恒星离开视界并继续下落，最终落入黑洞的内部。

Nobody really knows, but it’s gone from sight.

没有人真正知道，但它已经从视线中消失了。

It goes dark.

天黑了。

There’s this quote by John Wheeler, who’s granddaddy of American relativity, and he has a line that’s something to the effect, “The star, like the Cheshire cat fades from view one leaves behind only its grin, the other only its gravitational attraction.” And he was giving a lecture.

美国相对论的鼻祖约翰·惠勒（John Wheeler）有一句话大意是这样的：“星星，就像柴郡猫一样，从视野中消失，一个只留下它的笑容，另一个只留下它的万有引力。”他正在演讲。

It’s actually above Tom’s restaurant from Seinfeld near Columbia in New York.

它实际上位于纽约哥伦比亚附近《宋飞正传》中汤姆餐厅的楼上。

Nice.

好的。

There was a place, or there still is a place there where people were giving lectures about astrophysics.

曾经有一个地方，或者说现在仍然有一个地方，人们正在讲授天体物理学。

18:52 And it’s 1967.

那是 1967 年。

Wheeler is exhaustively saying this loaded term, the end state of catastrophic gravitational collapse and rumor is that someone shouts from the back row.

惠勒详尽地讲述了这个充满意义的术语，灾难性引力崩溃的最终状态和谣言是有人在后排喊叫。

“Well, how about black hole?” And apparently he then foists this term on the world.

“那么，黑洞怎么样？”显然，他随后将这个术语强加给世界。

Wheeler head wave of doing that.

惠勒头一挥就这么做了。

Well, I love terms like that big bang black hole.

嗯，我喜欢像大爆炸黑洞这样的术语。

19:19 There’s some, I mean, it’s just pointing out the elephant in the room and calling it an elephant.

我的意思是，有些人只是指出房间里的大象并称其为大象。

It is a black hole.

它是一个黑洞。

That’s a pretty accurate and deep description.

这是一个非常准确和深入的描述。

I just wanted to point out that just looking for the first time, it’s a 1939 paper from Oppenheimer.

我只是想指出，这是奥本海默 1939 年的一篇论文。

It two pages.

一共两页。

It’s like three pages.

就像三页一样。

Oh yeah.

哦，是的。

19:40 It’s gorgeous.

太漂亮了。

The simplicity of some of these, that’s so gangster, just revolutionize all of physics with Einstein did that multiple times.

其中一些的简单性太强悍了，就像爱因斯坦多次做过的那样彻底改变了所有物理学。

19:42 In a simple year when all thermonuclear sources of energy are exhausted, a sufficiently heavy star will collapse.

在简单的一年里，当所有热核能源耗尽时，一颗足够重的恒星就会崩溃。

That’s an opener.

这是一个开场白。

Unless fission due to rotation, the radiation of mass or the blowing off of mass by radiation, reduce the star’s mass, the orders of that of the sun, this contraction will continue indefinitely.

除非由于旋转、质量辐射或辐射造成的质量爆炸而发生裂变，减少恒星的质量（相当于太阳的质量），否则这种收缩将无限期地持续下去。

And it goes on that way.

事情就这样继续下去。

Yeah.

是的。

20:11 Now I have to say that Wheeler, who actually coins the term black hole, gives Oppenheimer quite a terrible time about this.

现在我不得不说，实际上创造了黑洞这个术语的惠勒让奥本海默在这件事上度过了一段非常糟糕的时光。

He thinks he’s wrong.

他认为他错了。

And they entered what has sometimes been described as kind of a bitter, I don’t know if you would actually say feud, but there were bad feelings.

他们进入了有时被描述为一种痛苦的状态，我不知道你是否真的会说不和，但有不好的感觉。

And Wheeler actually spent decades saying Oppenheimer was wrong.

惠勒实际上花了几十年的时间说奥本海默是错误的。

And eventually with his computer work, that early work that Wheeler was doing with computers, when he was also trying to understand nuclear weapons and in peacetime found themselves returning again to these astrophysical questions, decided that actually Oppenheimer had been right.

最终，通过他的计算机工作，惠勒在计算机方面所做的早期工作，当他也试图了解核武器时，在和平时期发现自己再次回到这些天体物理学问题，决定实际上奥本海默是对的。

He thought it was too simplistic, too idealized a setup that they had used, and that if you looked at something that was more realistic and more complicated, that it just simply, it just would go away.

他认为他们使用的设置太简单、太理想化，如果你看一些更现实、更复杂的东西，它只是简单的，它就会消失。

And in fact, he draws the opposite conclusion.

事实上，他得出了相反的结论。

And there’s a story that Oppenheimer was sitting outside of the auditorium when Wheeler was coming forth with his declaration that in fact, black holes were the likely end state of gravitational collapse for very, very heavy stars.

有一个故事，当惠勒发表声明时，奥本海默坐在礼堂外，他的声明是，事实上，黑洞可能是非常非常重的恒星的引力坍缩的最终状态。

And when asked about it, Oppenheimer sort of said, “well, I’ve moved on to other things.”

当被问到这个问题时，奥本海默有点说，“好吧，我已经转向其他事情了。”

Because written in many places about the human beings behind the science, I have to ask you about this, about nuclear weapons.

因为很多地方都写到了科学背后的人类，所以我不得不问你关于核武器的问题。

21:28 Whereas the greatest of coming together to create this most terrifying and powerful of a technology, and now I get to talk to world leaders for whom this technology, is part of the tools that is used perhaps implicitly on the chessboard of geopolitics.

尽管最伟大的人聚集在一起创造了这项最可怕和最强大的技术，但现在我开始与世界领导人交谈，对他们来说，这项技术可能是地缘政治棋盘上隐含使用的工具的一部分。

What can you say as a person who’s a physicist and who have studied the physicist and written about the physicists, the humans behind this, about this moment in human history, when physicists came together and created this weapon that’s powerful enough to destroy all of human civilization?

作为一名物理学家，你对物理学家进行了研究，并撰写了有关物理学家、物理学家、物理学家、人类历史上的这一时刻的文章，当物理学家聚集在一起创造了这种强大到足以摧毁所有人类文明的武器时，你能说些什么呢？

I think it’s an excruciating moment in the history of science.

我认为这是科学史上一个令人痛苦的时刻。

22:13 And people talk about Heisenberg, who stayed in Germany and worked for the Nazis in their own attempt to build the bomb.

人们谈论海森堡，他留在德国并为纳粹工作，试图制造炸弹。

There was this kind of hopeful talk that maybe Heisenberg had intentionally derailed the nuclear weapons program, but I think that’s been largely discredited, that he would have made the bomb, could he.

有一种充满希望的说法，认为海森堡可能故意破坏了核武器计划，但我认为这在很大程度上是不可信的，他会制造炸弹，他可以吗？

Had he not made some really kind of simple errors in his original estimates about how much material would be required or how they would get over the energy barriers.

如果他在最初估计需要多少材料或如何克服能量障碍时没有犯一些非常简单的错误的话。

And that’s a terrifying thought.

这是一个可怕的想法。

I don’t know that any of us can really put ourselves in that position of imagining that we are faced with that quandary, having to take the initiative to participate in thinking of a way that quantum mechanics can kill people.

我不知道我们中的任何一个人能真正想象自己面临这样的困境，必须主动参与思考量子力学可以杀人的方式。

And then making the bomb, I think overwhelmingly, physicists today feel we should not continue in the proliferation of nuclear weapons.

然后制造炸弹，我认为今天绝大多数物理学家都认为我们不应该继续扩散核武器。

Very few theoretical physicists want to see this continue.

很少有理论物理学家希望看到这种情况继续下去。

That moment in history, the Soviet Union had incredible scientists.

在历史的那个时刻，苏联拥有令人难以置信的科学家。

23:24 Nazi Germany had incredible scientists, and the United States had incredible scientists.

纳粹德国有令人难以置信的科学家，美国也有令人难以置信的科学家。

And it’s very easy to imagine that one of those three would’ve created the bomb first, not the United States.

很容易想象这三个国家中的一个会首先制造出原子弹，而不是美国。

And how different would the world be?

世界将会有何不同？

The game theory of that, I think say the probability is 33% that it was in the United States.

从博弈论来看，我认为发生在美国的可能性是 33%。

If the Soviet Union had the bomb, I think they would’ve used it in a much more terrifying way in the European theater and maybe turn on the United States.

如果苏联拥有原子弹，我认为他们会在欧洲战场以更可怕的方式使用它，也许还会针对美国。

And obviously, with Hitler, he would’ve used it.

显然，对于希特勒来说，他会使用它。

I think there’s no question he would’ve used it to kill hundreds of millions of people

我认为毫无疑问他会用它来杀死数亿人

In the game theory version.

在博弈论版本中。

24:13 This was the least harmful outcome.

这是危害最小的结果。

Yes,.

是的，。

Yes.

是的。

24:17 But there is no outcome with no bomb.

但没有炸弹就没有结果。

That any game theorist would, I think would play.

我认为任何博弈论学家都会玩。

But I think if we just remove the geopolitics and the ideology and the evil dictators, all of those people are just scientists.

但我认为，如果我们除去地缘政治、意识形态和邪恶的独裁者，所有这些人都只是科学家。

24:25 I think they don’t necessarily even think about the ideology.

我认为他们甚至不一定考虑意识形态。

And it’s a deep lesson about the connection between great science and the annoying, sometimes evil politicians that use that science for means that are either good or bad, and the scientists perhaps don’t.

这是一个深刻的教训，告诉我们伟大的科学与那些烦人的、有时甚至是邪恶的政客之间的联系，这些政客利用科学来达到或好或坏的目的，而科学家们也许不这样做。

Boy, do they even have control of how that science is used.

天哪，他们甚至可以控制科学的使用方式吗？

It’s hard.

这很难。

They don’t have control, right?

他们没有控制权，对吗？

25:00 Once it’s made, it’s no longer scientific reasoning that dictates the use or it’s restraint.

一旦制成，就不再是科学推理来决定其使用或限制。

But I will say that I do believe that it wasn’t [inaudible 00:25:16] one third down the line, because America was different.

但我要说的是，我确实相信这不是[听不清 00:25:16] 三分之一，因为美国是不同的。

And I think that’s something we have to think about right now in this particular climate.

我认为这是我们现在在这种特殊气候下必须考虑的事情。

So many scientists fled here.

许多科学家逃到这里。

They fled to here.

他们逃到了这里。

Americans weren’t fleeing to Nazi Germany.

美国人并没有逃往纳粹德国。

They came here and they were motivated by, it’s more than a patriotism.

他们来到这里，他们的动力不仅仅是爱国主义。

I mean, it was a patriotism, obviously, but it was sort of more than that.

我的意思是，这显然是一种爱国主义，但又不止于此。

It was really understanding the threat of Europe, what was going on in Europe and what that life.

它真正了解欧洲的威胁、欧洲正在发生的事情以及欧洲的生活。

How quickly it turned, how quickly this free spirited Berlin culture was suddenly in this repressive and terrifying regime.

事情转变得多么快啊，这种自由奔放的柏林文化突然间就陷入了这个镇压和恐怖的政权之中。

So I think that it was a much higher chance that it happened here in America.

所以我认为这件事发生在美国的可能性要高得多。

And there’s something about the American system, it’s cliche to say, but the freedom, all the different individual freedoms that enable a very vibrant, at its best, a very vibrant scientific community.

陈词滥调地说，美国的制度有一些东西，但是自由，所有不同的个人自由，使得一个非常充满活力、处于最佳状态、非常充满活力的科学界。

26:08 And that’s really exciting to scientists.

这对科学家来说真的很令人兴奋。

Absond it’s very valuable to maintain that, the vibrancy of the debate of the funding, those mechanisms.

保持资金和这些机制辩论的活力是非常有价值的。

26:29 Absolutely.

绝对地。

The world flocked here.

全世界都涌向这里。

And that won’t be the case if we no longer have intellectual freedom.

如果我们不再拥有知识自由，情况就不会如此。

Yeah.

是的。

26:37 There’s something interesting to think about.

有一些有趣的事情值得思考。

The tension, the Cold War between China and the United States in the 21st century, some of those same questions, some of those ideas will rise up again, and we want to make sure that there’s a vibrant free exchange of scientific ideas.

21世纪中美之间的紧张局势、冷战、一些相同的问题、一些想法将再次出现，我们希望确保科学思想的自由交流。

I believe most Nobel Prizes come from the United States, right?

我相信大多数诺贝尔奖都来自美国，对吗？

Yeah.

是的。

26:57 I don’t have the number, but-

我没有电话号码，但是——

But it’s disproportionately so.

但这是不成比例的。

It’s disproportionately so.

这是不成比例的。

27:00 In fact, a lot of them from particle physics came from the Bronx, and they were European immigrants.

事实上，粒子物理学的很多人都来自布朗克斯，他们是欧洲移民。

How do you explain this?

你如何解释这一点？

Fled Europe precisely because of the geopolitics we’re describing.

逃离欧洲正是因为我们所描述的地缘政治。

27:10 And so instead of being Nobel Prize winners from the Soviet Union or from the Eastern Bloc, they were from the Bronx.

因此，他们不是来自苏联或东欧集团的诺贝尔奖获得者，而是来自布朗克斯。

And that’s the thing you write about.

这就是你写的内容。

27:22 And we’ll return to time and time again that science is done by humans.

我们会一次又一次地回到科学是由人类完成的这一点。

And some of those humans are fascinating.

其中一些人很迷人。

There’s tensions, there’s battles, there’s some are loners, some are great collaborators, some are tormented, some are easygoing, all this kind of stuff.

有紧张，有战斗，有的人是孤独的，有的人是伟大的合作者，有的人受到折磨，有的人随和，所有这些东西。

And that’s the beautiful thing about it, we forget sometimes is that it’s humans.

这就是它的美妙之处，我们有时会忘记它是人类。

And humans are messy and complicated and beautiful and all of that.

人类是混乱的、复杂的、美丽的，等等。

Yeah.

是的。

So what were we talking about?

那么我们在说什么？

27:45 Oh-

哦-

The stars collapsing.

星辰崩塌。

Okay.

好的。

27:49 So can we just return to the collapse of a star that forms a black hole?

那么我们可以回到恒星坍塌形成黑洞的问题吗？

At which point does the super dense thing become nothing?

超稠密的东西到什么时候会变得虚无呢？

If we can just linger on this concept.

如果我们能停留在这个概念上就好了。

Yeah.

是的。

28:04 So if I were falling into a black hole, and I tried really fast right as I crossed this empty region, but this demarcation, I happened to know where it was, I calculated, because there’s no line there.

所以，如果我掉进一个黑洞，当我穿过这个空旷的区域时，我会非常快地尝试，但是这个分界线，我计算了一下，我碰巧知道它在哪里，因为那里没有界限。

There’s no sign that it’s there.

没有任何迹象表明它在那里。

There’s no signpost.

没有路标。

I could emit a little light pulse and try to send it outward exactly at the event horizon.

我可以发射一点光脉冲，并尝试将其精确地发送到事件视界。

So it’s racing outward at the speed of light.

所以它正在以光速向外运动。

It can hover there because from my perspective, it’s very strange.

它可以盘旋在那里，因为从我的角度来看，这很奇怪。

The spacetime is like a waterfall raining in, and I’m being dragged in with that waterfall.

时空就像瀑布倾泻而下，我也被瀑布卷进去。

I can’t stop at the event horizon.

我无法在事件视界停下来。

It comes, it goes.

它来了，它走了。

It’s behind me really quickly.

它很快就在我身后了。

That light beam can try to sit there like a fish swimming against the Niagara, sitting against a waterfall.

那光束可以尝试坐在那里，就像一条鱼在尼亚加拉河上游动，坐在瀑布旁边。

It’s like stuck there.

就像被困在那里一样。

But it’s stuck there.

但它卡在那里。

28:52 And so that’s one way you can have a little signpost, if you fly by, you think it’s moving at the speed of light.

所以这是你可以有一个小路标的一种方式，如果你飞过，你会认为它正在以光速移动。

It flies past you at the speed of light, but it’s sitting right there at the event horizon like that.

它以光速从你身边飞过，但它就那样坐在视界上。

So you’re falling back, cross the event horizon, right at that point you shoot outwards a photon.

所以你向后退，穿过视界，就在那时你向外射出一个光子。

Yes.

是的。

And it’s just stuck there.

它就卡在那里。

It just gets stuck there.

它只是卡在那里。

29:10 Now it’s very unstable.

现在非常不稳定。

So the star can’t sit.

所以明星不能坐。

There is the point.

这是重点。

It just can’t.

它就是不能。

So it rains inward with this waterfall, but from the outside, all we should ever really care about is the event horizon.

因此，瀑布向内下雨，但从外部看，我们真正应该关心的是事件视界。

I can’t know what happens to it.

我不知道会发生什么。

It could be pure matter and anti-matter thrown together, which annihilates into photons on the inside and loses all its mass into the energy of light won’t matter to me because I can’t know anything about what happened on the inside.

它可能是纯物质和反物质放在一起，在内部湮灭成光子，并失去所有质量变成光能，这对我来说并不重要，因为我不知道内部发生了什么。

Okay, can we just linger on this?

好吧，我们能就这样继续聊下去吗？

29:39 So what models do we have about what happens on the inside of the black hole at that moment?

那么我们对于黑洞内部此时发生的情况有什么模型呢？

So I guess that one of the intuitions, one of the big reminders that you’re giving to us is like, Hey, we know very little about what can happen on the inside of a black hole.

所以我想你给我们的直觉之一、重要提醒之一就是，嘿，我们对黑洞内部会发生什么知之甚少。

And that’s why we have to be careful about making…

这就是为什么我们必须小心制作……

It’s better to think about the black hole as an event horizon.” But what can we know and what do we know about the physics of spacetime inside black hole?

最好将黑洞视为事件视界。”但是我们能知道什么以及我们对黑洞内时空的物理了解多少呢？

I don’t mind being incautious about thinking about what the math tells us.

我不介意不谨慎地思考数学告诉我们的内容。

30:14 I’m not such an observer.

我不是这样的观察者。

I’m very theoretical in my work.

我的工作非常理论化。

It’s really pen on paper a lot.

这确实是纸上谈兵。

These are thought experiments that I think we can perform and contemplate whether or not we’ll ever know is another question.

我认为我们可以进行这些思想实验，并思考我们是否会知道是另一个问题。

And so, one of the most beautiful things that we suspect happens on the inside of a black hole is that space and time, in some sense swap places.

因此，我们怀疑发生在黑洞内部的最美丽的事情之一就是空间和时间，在某种意义上交换位置。

So while I’m on the outside of the black hole, let’s say I’m in a nice comfortable space station.

因此，当我在黑洞外部时，假设我在一个舒适的空间站中。

This black hole is maybe 10 times the mass of the sun, 60 kilometers across.

这个黑洞的质量可能是太阳的 10 倍，直径 60 公里。

I could be a hundred kilometers out.

我可能在一百公里外。

That’s very, very close, orbiting quite safely, no big deal hanging out.

距离非常非常近，绕轨道运行相当安全，没有什么大不了的。

I don’t bug the black hole.

我不打扰黑洞。

The black hole doesn’t bug me.

黑洞不会打扰我。

It won’t suck me up like a…

它不会像……那样吸引我。

31:00 I don’t bug the black hole.

我不打扰黑洞。

A black hole doesn’t bug me.

黑洞不会困扰我。

It won’t suck me up like a vacuum or anything crazy, but some …

它不会像真空或任何疯狂的东西一样吸走我，但有些……

My astronaut friend jumps in.

我的宇航员朋友跳了进去。

As they cross the event horizon, what I’m calling space.

当它们穿过事件视界（我称之为空间）时。

I’m looking on the outside at this spherical shadow of the black hole cast by maybe light around it.

我在外面看着黑洞的球形阴影，可能是由它周围的光投射的。

It’s a shadow ;cause everything gets too close, falls in.

这是一个影子；因为一切都靠得太近了，都会陷入其中。

It’s just this, just contrast against a bright sky.

就是这样，只是与明亮的天空形成对比。

I think, oh, there’s a center of a sphere and in the center of the sphere is the singularity.

我想，哦，有一个球体的中心，而球体的中心就是奇点。

It’s a point in space from my perspective, but from the perspective of the astronaut who falls in, it’s actually a point in time.

从我的角度来看，这是空间中的一个点，但从落入其中的宇航员的角度来看，这实际上是时间上的一个点。

Their notions of space and time have rotated so completely that what I’m calling a direction in space towards the center of the black hole, like the center of a physical sphere, they’re going to tell me where they can’t tell me, but they’re going to come to the conclusion, “Oh no, that’s not a location in space, that’s a location in time.”

他们的空间和时间概念已经完全旋转，以至于我所说的空间中朝向黑洞中心的方向，就像物理球体的中心一样，他们会告诉我他们无法告诉我的地方，但他们会得出结论，“哦不，那不是空间中的位置，那是时间中的位置。”

32:01 In other words, the singularity ends up in their future and they can no more avoid the singularity than they can avoid time coming their way.

换句话说，奇点最终会出现在他们的未来，他们无法避免奇点，就像他们无法避免时间的到来一样。

There’s no shenanigans you can do once you’re inside the black hole to try to skirt it.

一旦你进入黑洞，你就无法采取任何恶作剧来试图避开它。

The singularity.

奇点。

You can’t set yourself up in orbit around it.

你无法让自己进入围绕它的轨道。

You can’t try to fire rockets and stay away from it, ’cause it’s in your future.

你不能尝试发射火箭并远离它，因为它是你的未来。

There’s an inevitable moment when you will hit it.

总有一个不可避免的时刻，你会击中它。

Usually for a stellar mass black hole, we think it’s microseconds.

通常对于恒星质量黑洞，我们认为是微秒。

Microseconds to get from the event horizon to the-

从事件视界到-的微秒

To the singularity.

至奇点。

To the singularity.

至奇点。

32:36 Oh boy.

噢，孩子。

Oh boy, so that’s describing from your astronaut friend’s perspective.

哦，天哪，这是从你的宇航员朋友的角度来描述的。

Yes, from their perspective, the singularity’s in their future.

是的，从他们的角度来看，奇点就在他们的未来。

From your perspective, what do you see when your friend falls into the black hole and you’re chilling outside and watching?

从你的角度来看，当你的朋友掉进黑洞而你在外面冷眼旁观时，你会看到什么？

One way to think about this is to think that as you’re approaching the black hole, the astronaut’s space-time is rotating relative to your space-time.

思考这个问题的一种方法是，当你接近黑洞时，宇航员的时空正在相对于你的时空旋转。

32:57 Let’s say right now, my left is your right.

现在就说，我的左边是你的右边。

We’re not shocked by the fact that there’s this relativity in left and right, it’s completely understood, and I can perform a spatial rotation to align my left with your left.

我们对左右存在这种相对性这一事实并不感到震惊，这是完全理解的，我可以执行空间旋转以将我的左侧与你的左侧对齐。

Right now, I’ve completely rotated left, out.

现在，我已经完全向左、向外旋转了。

If I just want to draw a kind of compass diagram, not a compass diagram, but at the top of maps there’s a north, south, east, west, but now time is up down and one direction of space is let’s say east-west.

如果我只想画一种罗盘图，而不是罗盘图，但在地图的顶部有北、南、东、西，但现在时间是上下的，空间的一个方向是东西向。

As you approach the black hole, it’s as though you’re rotating in space-time is one way of thinking about it.

当你接近黑洞时，就好像你在时空中旋转，这是思考它的一种方式。

What is the effect of that?

这样做的效果是什么呢？

The effect of that is as this astronaut gets closer and closer to the event horizon, part of their space is rotated into my time and part of their time is rotated into my space.

其效果是，当这位宇航员越来越接近事件视界时，他们的部分空间被旋转到我的时间中，而他们的部分时间也被旋转到我的空间中。

In other words, their clocks seem to be less aligned with my time.

换句话说，他们的时钟似乎与我的时间不太一致。

The overall effect is that their time seems to dilate the spacing between ticks on the clock of their watch, let’s say on the face of their watch, is elongated, dilated, relative to mine.

总体效果是，他们的时间似乎扩大了手表时钟上滴答声之间的间距，比如说在他们手表的表面上，相对于我的来说，被拉长、扩大了。

34:28 It seems to me that their watches are running slowly, even though they were made in the same factory as mine, they were both synchronized beautifully and they’re excellent Swiss watches.

在我看来，他们的手表跑得很慢，尽管它们和我是同一家工厂生产的，但它们都同步得很漂亮，都是优秀的瑞士手表。

It seems as though time is elapsing more slowly for my companion and likewise for them, it seems like mine’s going really fast.

对于我的同伴来说，时间似乎过得更慢，同样对于他们来说，我的时间似乎过得很快。

Years could elapse in my space station.

在我的空间站里可能会过去很多年。

My plants come and go, they die.

我的植物来了又走，它们死了。

I age faster.

我老得更快了。

I’ve got gray hair and they’re falling in and it’s been minutes in their frame of reference.

我的头发花白了，他们正在陷入困境，在他们的参照系中已经过去了几分钟。

Flowers in their little rocket ship haven’t rotted.

他们的小火箭飞船里的花没有腐烂。

They don’t have gray hair.

他们没有白发。

Their biological clocks have slowed down relative to ours.

他们的生物钟相对于我们来说已经变慢了。

Eventually at the event horizon, it’s so extreme, it’s so slow, it’s as other clocks have stopped altogether from my point of view.

最终在事件视界，它是如此极端，如此缓慢，从我的角度来看，就像其他时钟完全停止了一样。

That’s to say that it’s as though their time is completely rotated into my space.

也就是说，他们的时间好像完全旋转到了我的空间里。

This is connected with the idea that inside the black hole space and time have switched places.

这与黑洞内部空间和时间交换了位置的想法有关。

I might see them hover there for millennia.

我可能会看到它们在那里盘旋数千年。

Other astronauts could be born on my space station.

其他宇航员可能会在我的空间站出生。

Generations could be populated there watching this poor astronaut never fall in.

可能会有几代人在那里看着这位可怜的宇航员永远不会掉进去。

Basically, the time almost comes to a standstill, but we still, they do fall in.

基本上，时间几乎停滞了，但我们仍然，他们确实陷入了。

They do fall in eventually.

他们最终确实会陷入困境。

35:57 Now, that’s because they have some mass of their own, so they’re not a perfectly light particle, and so they deform the event horizon a little bit.

现在，那是因为它们有自己的质量，所以它们不是完美的轻粒子，所以它们使事件视界稍微变形。

You’ll actually see and event horizon bobble and absorb the astronauts.

您实际上会看到事件视界晃动并吸收宇航员。

In some finite time, the astronaut will actually fall in.

在某个有限的时间内，宇航员实际上会掉进去。

It’s like this weird space-time bubble that we have around us.

这就像我们周围的这个奇怪的时空泡沫。

36:18 Then there’s a very big space-time curvature bubble thing from the black hole, and there’s a nice swirly type situation going on.

然后，黑洞中出现了一个非常大的时空曲率气泡，并且出现了一种漂亮的漩涡状情况。

That’s how you get sucked up.

这就是你被吸进去的方式。

If you’re a perfect infinitely small particle, you would just be-

如果你是一个完美的无限小粒子，你就会——

Take longer and longer.

需要越来越长的时间。

Probably just be stuck there or something, but no, there’s quantum mechanics.

可能只是被困在那里什么的，但不，有量子力学。

Eventually, you’ll fall in.

最终，你会陷入其中。

36:43 Any perturbation will only go one way.

任何扰动都只会朝一个方向发展。

It’s unstable in one direction, in one direction only.

它在一个方向上不稳定，仅在一个方向上。

It’s really important to remember that from the point of view of the astronaut, not much time has passed at all.

重要的是要记住，从宇航员的角度来看，时间并没有过去多久。

You just sail right across as far as you are concerned.

就你而言，你只需航行就可以了。

Nothing dramatic happens there.

那里没有发生任何戏剧性的事情。

You might not even realize you’ve come to the event horizon.

你甚至可能没有意识到你已经来到了事件视界。

You might not even realize you’ve crossed the event horizon because there’s nothing there.

你甚至可能没有意识到你已经跨越了事件视界，因为那里什么也没有。

This is an empty region of space-time.

这是一个空旷的时空区域。

There’s no marker to tell you you’ve reached this very dangerous point of no return.

没有任何标记可以告诉你，你已经到达了这个非常危险的、无法回头的地步。

You can fire your rockets like hell when you’re on the outside and maybe even escape, right?

当你在外面时，你可以疯狂地发射火箭，甚至可能逃跑，对吧？

Once you get to that point, there’s no amount of energy, that all the energy in the universe will not save you from this demise.

一旦你到达那个点，就没有任何能量了，宇宙中所有的能量都无法将你从灭亡中拯救出来。

There’s different size black holes.

有不同大小的黑洞。

37:36 Maybe can we talk about the experience that you have falling into a black hole depending on what the size of the black hole is?

也许我们可以谈谈你根据黑洞的大小掉入黑洞的经历吗？

Yeah.

是的。

As I understand, the bigger it is, less drastic the experience of falling into it.

据我了解，它越大，陷入其中的体验就越不剧烈。

That might surprise people.

这可能会让人们感到惊讶。

37:56 The bigger it is, the less noticeable it is that you’ve crossed the event horizon.

它越大，越过视界就越不引人注目。

One way to think about it is curvature is less noticeable the bigger it is.

一种思考方式是，曲率越大，就越不明显。

If I’m standing on a basketball, I’m very aware I’m balancing on a curved surface.

如果我站在篮球上，我会非常清楚自己是在曲面上保持平衡。

My two feet are in different locations and I really notice.

我的两只脚位于不同的位置，我确实注意到了。

On the earth, you actually have to be kind of clever to deduce that the earth is curved.

在地球上，你实际上必须有点聪明才能推断出地球是弯曲的。

The bigger the planet, the less you’re going to notice the curvature, the global curvature.

行星越大，你就越不会注意到曲率，即全局曲率。

It’s the same thing with a black hole, A huge, huge black hole.

这和黑洞是一样的，一个巨大的黑洞。

It just kind of feels like just flat.

感觉就像是平坦的。

You don’t really notice.

你并没有真正注意到。

I’m trying to figure out how the, because if you don’t notice-

我正在尝试弄清楚是怎么回事，因为如果你没有注意到——

There’s nothing there.

那里什么也没有。

The physics is weird.

物理学很奇怪。

In your frame of reference.

在你的参照系中。

No.

不。

Well, so another cool thing.

好吧，这是另一件很酷的事情。

38:47 I like to dispel myths.

我喜欢消除神话。

Do you need a minute?

你需要一分钟吗？

You’re holding your head.

你抱着你的头。

There’s a sense you should be able to know when you’re inside of a black hole, when you’ve crossed the event horizon, but no, from your frame of reference, you might not be able to know.

有一种感觉，你应该能够知道你何时处于黑洞内部，何时跨越事件视界，但不，从你的参考系来看，你可能无法知道。

Yeah, at first, at least you might not realize what’s happened.

是的，一开始，至少你可能没有意识到发生了什么。

39:06 There are some hints.

有一些提示。

For instance, black holes are dark from the outside, but they’re not necessarily dark on the inside.

例如，黑洞从外部看是黑暗的，但内部不一定是黑暗的。

This is a kind of fascinating that your experience could be that it’s quite bright

这是一种令人着迷的感觉，你的经历可能是它很明亮

39:26 Inside the black hole because all the light from the galaxy can be shining in behind you.

在黑洞里面，因为来自星系的所有光线都可以照射到你的身后。

It’s focusing down because you’re all approaching this really focused region in the interior.

它向下聚焦，因为你们都在接近内部这个真正集中的区域。

You actually see a bright white flash of light as you approach the singularity.

当你接近奇点时，你实际上会看到一道明亮的白色闪光。

I joke that it’s like a near-death experience.

我开玩笑说这就像一次濒死体验。

We see the light at the end of the tunnel.

我们看到了隧道尽头的曙光。

You would see millennia pass on earth.

你会看到地球上千年过去了。

You could see the evolution of the entire galaxy, one big bright flash of light.

你可以看到整个星系的演化，一道巨大的明亮闪光。

It’s like a near-death experience, but it’s definitely a total death experience.

这就像一次濒死体验，但绝对是一次彻底的死亡体验。

It goes pretty fast, but you looking out, you looking out, everything’s going super fast.

一切都过得很快，但你向外看，向外看，一切都进展得超级快。

Yeah.

是的。

40:07 The clocks on the earth on the space station seem to be progressing very rapidly relative to yours.

空间站上地球上的时钟相对于你们的似乎走得非常快。

The light can catch up to you and you get this bright beam of light as you see the evolution of the galaxy unfold.

当你看到银河系的演化展开时，光线会追上你，你会看到这束明亮的光束。

I mean, it sort of depends on the size of the black hole and how long you have to hang around.

我的意思是，这在某种程度上取决于黑洞的大小以及你必须停留的时间。

The bigger the black hole, the longer it takes you to expire in the center.

黑洞越大，你在中心消失所需的时间就越长。

Obviously, the human sensory system, we’re not able to process that information correctly.

显然，人类的感官系统无法正确处理这些信息。

It would be a microsecond in a, right, that would be too fast,

这将是一微秒，对吧，那太快了，

It would be, while it’d be so cool to get that information.

确实如此，虽然获得这些信息会很酷。

A big black hole, you could actually hang around for some months.

一个大黑洞，你实际上可以在那里呆上几个月。

Yeah.

是的。

40:53 How are small black holes or supermassive black holes formed just so people can kind of load that in?

小黑洞或超大质量黑洞是如何形成的，以便人们可以将其加载进去？

Is it always a star?

总是明星吗？

No, so this is also why it’s important to think of black holes more abstractly.

不，这也是为什么更抽象地思考黑洞很重要。

41:06 They are something very profound in the universe, and there are probably multiple ways to make black holes.

它们是宇宙中非常深刻的东西，并且可能有多种制造黑洞的方法。

Making them with stars is most plentiful.

用星星制作它们是最丰富的。

There could be hundreds of millions, maybe even a billion black holes in our Milky Way galaxy alone that many stars.

仅在我们的银河系中就可能存在数亿甚至十亿个黑洞，光是恒星的数量就如此。

It’s only about 1% of stars that will end their lives in a death state that is a black hole.

只有大约 1% 的恒星会以黑洞这种死亡状态结束自己的生命。

We now see, and this was really quite a surprise, that there are supermassive black holes.

我们现在看到，确实存在超大质量黑洞，这确实令人惊讶。

They are billions or even hundreds of billions of times, the mass of the sun and millions to tens of billions, maybe even hundreds of billions.

它们是太阳质量的几十亿甚至几千亿倍，几百万到几百亿，甚至可能是几千亿。

Extremely massive.

极其庞大。

41:56 We don’t think that the universe has had enough time to make them from stars that just merge.

我们认为宇宙没有足够的时间来从刚刚合并的恒星中制造出它们。

We know that two black holes can merge and make a bigger black hole and then those can merge and make a bigger black hole.

我们知道两个黑洞可以合并并形成一个更大的黑洞，然后它们可以合并并形成一个更大的黑洞。

We don’t think there’s been enough time for that.

我们认为还没有足够的时间。

It’s suspected that they’re formed very early, maybe even a hundred, few hundred million years after the Big Bang, and that they’re formed directly by collapsing out of primordial stuff, that there’s a direct collapse right into the black hole.

人们怀疑它们很早就形成了，甚至可能是大爆炸后一百、几亿年，而且它们是由原始物质直接塌缩形成的，直接塌缩到黑洞中。

In the very early universe, these are primordial black holes from the star’s, not quite …

在非常早期的宇宙中，这些是来自恒星的原始黑洞，不完全是……

42:29 Wait, how do you get from that soup?

等等，你怎么喝那汤？

Black holes right away.

立刻就有黑洞了。

It’s odd, but it’s weirdly easier to make a big black hole out of something that’s just the density of air if it’s really, really as big as what we’re talking about.

这很奇怪，但如果空气密度真的像我们所说的那么大，那么用空气密度制造一个大黑洞会更容易。

42:42 In sense, if they’re just allowed to directly collapse very early in the universe’s history, they can do that more easily.

从某种意义上说，如果允许它们在宇宙历史的早期直接坍缩，它们可以更容易地做到这一点。

It’s so much so that we think that there’s one of these supermassive black holes in the center of every galaxy.

它是如此之大，以至于我们认为每个星系的中心都有一个超大质量黑洞。

They’re not rare and we know where they are.

它们并不罕见，我们知道它们在哪里。

They’re in the nuclei of galaxies.

它们位于星系核中。

They’re bound to the very early formation of entire galaxies in a really surprising and deeply connected way.

它们以一种非常令人惊讶且紧密相连的方式与整个星系的早期形成联系在一起。

I wonder if the chicken or the egg, is it, how critical, how essential are the supermassive black holes of the formation of galaxies?

我想知道是先有鸡还是先有蛋，超大质量黑洞对于星系的形成有多关键、有多重要？

Yeah, I mean, it’s ongoing, right?

是的，我的意思是，它正在进行中，对吗？

43:31 It’s ongoing.

它正在进行中。

Which came first, the black hole or the galaxy?

黑洞和星系哪个先出现？

Probably big early stars, which were just made out of hydrogen and helium from the Big Bang.

可能是早期的大恒星，它们是由大爆炸中的氢和氦构成的。

There wasn’t anything else.

没有别的事了。

Not much of anything else.

没有太多其他的东西。

Those early stars were forming.

那些早期的恒星正在形成。

Then maybe the black holes and kind of the galaxies were like these gassy clouds around them.

那么也许黑洞和某种星系就像它们周围的气体云一样。

There’s probably a deep relationship between the black hole powering jets, these jets blowing material out of the galaxy that shaped galaxies maybe kind of curbed their growth.

黑洞驱动的喷流之间可能存在着深刻的关系，这些喷流将物质吹出星系，从而塑造了星系，可能在某种程度上抑制了它们的生长。

I think the mechanisms are still ongoing attempts to understand exactly the ordering of these things.

我认为这些机制仍在不断尝试，以准确理解这些事物的顺序。

Can we get back to space-time?

我们能回到时空吗？

44:22 Just going back to the beginning of the 20th century, how do you imagine space-time?

回到20世纪初，你如何想象时空？

How do we as human beings supposed to visualize and think about space-time where time is just another dimension in this 4D space that combines space and time?

作为人类，我们应该如何想象和思考时空，其中时间只是这个结合空间和时间的 4D 空间中的另一个维度？

Because we’ve been talking about morphing in all kinds of different ways, the curvature of space-time.

因为我们一直在讨论各种不同方式的变形，即时空的曲率。

How are we supposed to conceive of it?

我们应该如何构想它？

How do you think of it?

你觉得怎么样？

Time’s just another dimension?

时间只是另一个维度？

There are different ways we can think about it.

我们可以通过不同的方式来思考它。

44:49 We can imagine drawing a map of space and treating time as another direction in that map.

我们可以想象绘制一张空间地图，并将时间视为该地图中的另一个方向。

We’re limited because as three-dimensional beings, we can’t really draw four dimensions, which is what I’d require.

我们是有限的，因为作为三维生物，我们无法真正绘制出四个维度，而这正是我所需要的。

Three spatial, I’m pretty sure.

三个空间，我很确定。

There’s at least three.

至少有三个。

I think there’s probably more, but I’m happy just talking about the large dimensions.

我认为可能还有更多，但我很高兴谈论大尺寸。

The three we see, up-down, east-west, north-south, three spatial dimensions and time is the fourth.

我们看到的三个，上下、东西、南北，三个空间维度，时间是第四个。

Nobody can really visualize it, but we know mathematically how to unpack it on paper.

没有人能够真正将其形象化，但我们知道如何从数学上将其解压缩在纸上。

I can mathematically suppress one of the spatial dimensions and then I can draw it pretty well.

我可以用数学方法抑制其中一个空间维度，然后我可以很好地绘制它。

Now, the problem is that we’d call it a Euclidean space-time.

现在的问题是我们将其称为欧几里得时空。

Euclidean space-time is when all the dimensions are orthogonal and are treated equally.

欧几里得时空是指所有维度都是正交的并且同等对待。

Time is not another Euclidean dimension.

时间不是另一个欧几里得维度。

It’s actually a Minkowski in space-time.

它实际上是时空中的闵可夫斯基。

45:56 It means that the space-time, we’re misrepresenting it when we draw it, but we’re misrepresenting it in a way that we deeply understand.

这意味着时空，当我们绘制它时，我们歪曲了它，但我们以我们深刻理解的方式歪曲了它。

I can give you an example.

我可以给你举个例子。

The earth, I can project onto a flat sheet of paper.

地球，我可以投影到一张平坦的纸上。

I am now misrepresenting a map of the earth and I know that.

我现在歪曲了地球地图，我知道这一点。

I understand the rules for how to add distances on this misrepresentation because the earth is not a flat sheet of paper.

我了解如何在这种误传中添加距离的规则，因为地球不是一张平坦的纸。

It’s a sphere.

这是一个球体。

As long as I understand the rules for how I get from the North Pole to the South Pole that I’m moving along really a great arc, and I understand that the distance is not the distance I would measure on a flat sheet of paper, then I can do a really great job with a map and understanding the rules of addition multiplication in the geometries, not the geometry of a flat sheet of paper.

只要我了解从北极到南极的规则，即我沿着一条很大的弧线移动，并且我了解该距离不是我在一张平板纸上测量的距离，那么我就可以很好地绘制地图并理解几何中的加法乘法规则，而不是一张平板纸的几何。

46:44 I can do the same thing with space-time.

我可以用时空做同样的事情。

I can draw it on a flat sheet of paper, but I know that it’s not actually a flat Euclidean space.

我可以把它画在一张平坦的纸上，但我知道它实际上并不是一个平坦的欧几里得空间。

My rules for measuring distances are different than the rules.

我测量距离的规则与规则不同。

I would use that, for instance, Cartesian rules of geometry I would know to use the correct rules from Minkowski’s space-time, and that will allow me to calculate how long time has elapsed, which is now a kind of a length, a space-time length on my map between two relative observers.

例如，我会使用笛卡尔几何规则，我知道使用明可夫斯基时空的正确规则，这将使我能够计算已经过去了多长时间，现在它是一种长度，是我的地图上两个相对观察者之间的时空长度。

I will get the correct answer, but only if I use these different rules.

我会得到正确的答案，但前提是我使用这些不同的规则。

Then what does, according to general relativity, does objects with mass do to the space-time?

那么，根据广义相对论，有质量的物体对时空有何作用呢？

Right, exactly.

对，完全正确。

47:33 Einstein struggled for this completely general theory, not a specific solution like a black hole or an expanding space-time or galaxies make lenses or those are all solutions.

爱因斯坦为这个完全普遍的理论而奋斗，而不是像黑洞或膨胀的时空或星系那样的特定解决方案，这些都是解决方案。

That’s why what he did was so enormous.

这就是为什么他所做的事情如此巨大。

It’s an entire paradigm that says over here is matter and energy.

这是一个完整的范例，说明这里是物质和能量。

I’m going to call that the right-hand side of the equation.

我将其称为等式的右侧。

Everything on the right-hand side of Einstein’s equations is how matter and energy are distributed in space-time.

爱因斯坦方程右侧的所有内容都是物质和能量在时空中的分布方式。

On the left-hand side tells you how space and time deform in response to that matter and energy, and it can be impossible to solve some of those equations.

左侧告诉您空间和时间如何响应物质和能量而变形，并且解决其中一些方程可能是不可能的。

What was so amazing about what Schwarzschild did is he found this very elegant, simple solution within a month of reading this final formulation, but Einstein didn’t go through and try to find all the solutions.

史瓦西所做的事情的惊人之处在于，他在阅读最终公式后一个月内就找到了这个非常优雅、简单的解决方案，但爱因斯坦并没有仔细阅读并尝试找到所有解决方案。

He sort of gave it to us.

他把它给了我们。

48:32 He shared this.

他分享了这一点。

Then lots of people since have been scrambling to try to, “I can predict the curvature of the space-time, if I tell you how the matter and energy is laid out, if it’s all compact in a spherical system like a sun or even a black hole, I can understand the curves in the space-time around it.

此后很多人都在争先恐后地尝试：“我可以预测时空的曲率，如果我告诉你物质和能量是如何分布的，如果它在像太阳甚至黑洞这样的球形系统中都是紧凑的，我就可以理解它周围时空的曲线。

I can solve for the shape of the space-time.” I can also say, “Well, what if the universe is full of gas or light and it’s all kind of uniform everywhere.” I’ll find a different equally surprising solution, which is that the universe would expand in response to that, that it’s not static, that the distances between galaxies would grow.

我可以解出时空的形状。”我还可以说，“好吧，如果宇宙充满气体或光并且到处都是均匀的怎么办？”我会找到一个不同的同样令人惊讶的解决方案，即宇宙会相应地膨胀，它不是静态的，星系之间的距离会增加。

This was a huge surprise to Einstein.

这对爱因斯坦来说是一个巨大的惊喜。

All of these consequences of his theory came with revelations that were not at all obvious when he first wrote down the general theory.

他的理论的所有这些后果都伴随着他第一次写下一般理论时并不明显的启示。

He was afraid to take the consequences of that theory seriously, which is-

他害怕认真对待这个理论的后果，那就是——

Often.

经常。

The theory itself in its scope and grandeur and power is scary.

这个理论本身的范围、宏伟和力量是可怕的。

49:32 I can understand.

我能理解。

Then there’s edges of the theory where it falls apart, the consequences of the theory that are extreme.

然后，这个理论就存在着分崩离析的边缘，该理论的后果是极端的。

It’s hard to take seriously, so you can empathize.

很难认真对待，所以你可以感同身受。

He very much resisted the expansion.

他非常抵制扩张。

49:50 If you think about 1905 when he’s writing these sequence of unbelievable papers as a twenty-five- year-old who can’t get a job as a physicist, and he writes all of these remarkable papers on relativity and quantum mechanics, and then even in 1915, ’16, he does not know that there are other galaxies out there.

如果你想想 1905 年，当时他作为一个找不到物理学家工作的 25 岁年轻人写下了一系列令人难以置信的论文，而且他写了所有这些关于相对论和量子力学的出色论文，然后即使在 1915 年、16 年，他也不知道那里还有其他星系。

This just was not known.

这只是未知的。

People had mused about it.

人们对此深思熟虑。

There were these kind of smudges on the sky that people contemplated, what if there are other island universes?

天上有这样的污点，人们想，如果还有其他的岛屿宇宙呢？

Going back to Kant thought about this, but it wasn’t until Hubble.

回到康德思考这个问题，但直到哈勃才想到。

It really wasn’t until the late twenties that it’s confirmed that there are other galaxies.

直到二十年代末，人们才确认确实存在其他星系。

Wow, and obviously, there’s so much we think of now that he didn’t think of, so there’s no Big Bang static universe,

哇，显然，我们现在想到了很多他没有想到的东西，所以不存在大爆炸静态宇宙，

Right, but these are all connected.

是的，但这些都是有联系的。

Wow.

哇。

50:47 Yeah, so he’s operating on very little information.

是的，所以他的操作信息非常少。

Very little information.

信息很少。

50:52 That’s absolutely true.

这绝对是真的。

Actually, one of the things I like to point out is the idea of relativity was foisted on people in this kind of cultural way.

事实上，我想指出的一件事是相对论的观念是通过这种文化方式强加给人们的。

There’s many ways in which you could call it a theory of absolutism.

你可以通过多种方式将其称为绝对主义理论。

The way Einstein got there with so little information is by adhering to certain very strict absolutes, like the absolute limit of the speed of light and the absolute constancy of the speed of light, which was completely bizarre when it was first discovered.

爱因斯坦在信息如此之少的情况下达到这一目标的方式是坚持某些非常严格的绝对，比如光速的绝对极限和光速的绝对恒定，这在第一次发现时是完全奇怪的。

Really, that was observed through experiments trying to figure out what would the relative speed of light be?

真的，这是通过实验观察到的，试图找出光的相对速度是多少？

It’s really only massless particles have this property that they have an absolute speed.

事实上，只有无质量粒子才具有绝对速度这一特性。

If you think about it’s incredibly strange.

如果你仔细想想，这真是太奇怪了。

Yeah.

是的。

51:45 It’s really strange.

真的很奇怪。

Incredibly strange.

非常奇怪。

From a theoretical perspective, he takes that seriously.

从理论角度来看，他对此非常重视。

He takes it very seriously, and everyone else is trying to come up with models to make it go away, to make the speed of light be a little bit more reasonable, like everything else in the universe.

他非常认真地对待它，而其他人都在试图想出模型来让它消失，让光速变得更合理一点，就像宇宙中的其他一切一样。

51:52 If I run at a car, two cars coming at each other, they’re coming at each other faster than if one of them stops.

如果我跑向一辆车，两辆车相撞，它们相撞的速度比其中一辆车停下来的速度要快。

It’s really a basic observation of reality, right?

这确实是对现实的基本观察，对吧？

Here, this is saying that if I’m racing at a light beam and you’re standing still relative to the source, we’ll measure the same exact speed of light.

在这里，这意味着，如果我在光束中奔跑，而你相对于光源静止不动，我们将测量到相同精确的光速。

Very strange.

很奇怪。

He gets to relativity by saying, “Well, what speed?

他谈到相对论时说：“那么，速度是多少？

Speed is distance.

速度就是距离。

It’s space over time.

这是空间与时间的关系。

It’s how far you travel.

这就是你旅行的距离。

It’s the space you travel in a certain duration of time.” He said, “Well, I bet something must be wrong then with space and time.” This is an enormous leap.

这是你在一定时间内旅行的空间。”他说：“好吧，我敢打赌，空间和时间一定出了问题。”这是一个巨大的飞跃。

He’s willing to give up the absolute character of space and time in favor of keeping the speed of light constant.

他愿意放弃空间和时间的绝对特征，转而保持光速恒定。

How was he able to intuit a world of curved space-time?

他怎么能够凭直觉感知到一个弯曲时空的世界？

52:52 I think it’s one of the most special leaps in human history, right?

我认为这是人类历史上最特别的飞跃之一，对吗？

It’s amazing.

太棒了。

It’s very, very, very difficult to make that kind of leap.

实现这样的飞跃是非常、非常、非常困难的。

I’ll tell you, it took me, I think, a long time to, I can’t say this is how he got there exactly.

我告诉你，我想，我花了很长时间，我不能说他就是这样到达那里的。

53:12 It’s not as though I studied the historical accounts or his description of his internal states.

我并没有研究历史记载或他对他内心状态的描述。

This is more having learned the subject, how I try to tell people how to get there in a few short steps.

这更多的是在学习了这个主题后，我如何尝试告诉人们如何通过几个简短的步骤到达那里。

One is to start with the equivalence principle, which he called the happiest thought of his life.

一是从等效原理开始，他称之为一生中最快乐的想法。

The equivalence principle comes pretty early on in his thinking.

等效原理很早就出现在他的思想中。

It starts with something like this.

事情是从这样的事情开始的。

Right now, I think I’m feeling gravity because sitting in this chair and I feel the pressure of the chair and it’s stopping me from falling and lie down in a bed, and I feel heavy on the bed.

现在，我想我感觉到了重力，因为坐在这把椅子上，我感觉到椅子的压力，它阻止我跌倒并躺在床上，我感觉床上很重。

I think of that as gravity.

我认为这就是重力。

I think it has a beautiful ability to remove all of these extraneous factors, including atoms.

我认为它具有消除所有这些无关因素（包括原子）的出色能力。

54:11 Let’s imagine instead that you’re in an elevator and you feel heavy on your feet, ’cause the floor of the elevator is resisting your fall, but I want to remove the elevator.

让我们想象一下，你在电梯里，你感觉脚很重，因为电梯的地板可以抵抗你的坠落，但我想把电梯拆掉。

What does the elevator have to do with fundamental properties of gravity?

电梯与重力的基本特性有什么关系？

I cut the cable, now I’m falling, but the elevator is falling at the same rate as me.

我剪断了缆绳，现在我正在坠落，但电梯正在以与我相同的速度坠落。

Now, I’m floating in the elevator.

现在，我漂浮在电梯里。

If this happened to me, if I woke up in this state of falling or floating in the elevator, I might not know if I was an empty space just floating or if I was falling around the earth, there would actually, they’re equivalent situations.

如果这种情况发生在我身上，如果我在电梯里坠落或漂浮的状态中醒来，我可能不知道我是在一个漂浮着的空旷空间，还是在地球周围坠落，实际上，它们是等价的情况。

I would not be able to tell the difference.

我无法区分。

I’m actually, when I get rid of the elevator in this way, by cutting the cable, I’m actually experiencing weightlessness.

事实上，当我以这种方式摆脱电梯，通过切断电缆时，我实际上正在体验失重。

That weightlessness is the purest experience of gravity.

这种失重是最纯粹的重力体验。

This idea of falling is actually fundamental.

这种跌倒的想法实际上是基本的。

It’s how we talk about it all the time.

这就是我们一直谈论的方式。

The earth is in a free fall around the sun.

地球围绕太阳做自由落体运动。

It’s actually falling.

它实际上正在下降。

It’s not firing engines, it’s just falling all the time, but it’s just cruising so fast.

它没有启动引擎，只是一直在下落，但它只是巡航得如此之快。

Actually, yeah, God, you said so many profound things.

事实上，是的，上帝，你说了很多深刻的话。

55:23 One of them is really one of the ways to experience space- time is to be falling?

其中之一真的是体验时空的方式之一就是坠落吗？

To be falling.

要坠落了。

55:32 That is the purest experience of gravity.

那是最纯粹的重力体验。

The experience of gravity, unfettered, uninterrupted by atoms is weightlessness.

不受原子束缚、不受原子干扰的重力体验就是失重。

Yeah.

是的。

That observation, no, it has an unhappy ending.

那个观察，不，它有一个不幸的结局。

55:44 The elevator story because of atoms, again.

电梯的故事又是因为原子。

That’s the fault of the atoms in your body interacting electromagnetically with the crust of the earth or the bottom of the building or whatever.

这是你体内的原子与地壳或建筑物底部或其他物体发生电磁相互作用的错误。

This period of free fall, so the first observation is that that is the purest experience of gravity.

这段时间的自由落体，所以第一个观察就是那是最纯粹的重力体验。

Now, I can convince you that things fall along curved paths because I could take a pen and if I throw it, we both know it’s going to follow an arc and it’s going to follow an arc until atoms interfere again and it hits the ground.

现在，我可以让你相信物体沿着弯曲的路径下落，因为我可以拿一支笔，如果我扔它，我们都知道它会沿着一条弧线移动，并且它会沿着一条弧线移动，直到原子再次干涉并撞击地面。

While it’s in free fall experiencing gravity at its purest, what the Einsteinian description would say is it is following the natural curve in space-time inscribed by the earth.

虽然它处于自由落体状态，承受着最纯粹的引力，但爱因斯坦的描述会说，它遵循地球所刻下的时空自然曲线。

56:35 The earth’s mass and shape curves the paths in space.

地球的质量和形状弯曲了太空中的路径。

Then those curvatures tell you how to fall, the paths along which you should fall when you’re falling freely.

然后这些曲率会告诉你如何坠落，以及当你自由坠落时你应该沿着哪些路径坠落。

The earth has found itself on a free fall that happens to be a closed circle, but it’s actually falling.

地球发现自己正在自由落体，它恰好是一个封闭的圆圈，但它实际上正在下落。

The International Space Station uses this principle all the time.

国际空间站一直沿用这一原理。

They get the space station up there and then they turn off the engines.

他们把空间站升到那里，然后关闭引擎。

Can you imagine how expensive it would be if they had to fuel that thing at all times, right?

你能想象如果他们必须一直为那东西加油的话会有多贵吗？

They turn off the engines, they’re just falling.

他们关掉引擎，他们就在坠落。

Yeah, they’re falling.

是的，他们正在坠落。

They’re not that far up.

他们并没有那么远。

57:11 Certainly people sometimes say, “Oh, they’re so far away, they don’t feel gravity.” Oh, absolutely.

当然，人们有时会说，“哦，他们离得太远了，他们感觉不到重力。”哦，绝对是。

If you stopped the space station, it’s going like 17,500 miles an hour or something like that.

如果你让空间站停下来，它的速度大约是每小时 17,500 英里或类似的速度。

If you were to stop that, it would drop like a stone right to the earth.

如果你阻止它，它就会像一块石头一样掉到地上。

They’re in a state of constant free fall and they’re falling along a curved path, and that curved path is a result of curving space-time.

它们处于持续自由落体的状态，并且沿着弯曲的路径下落，而该弯曲的路径是弯曲时空的结果。

That particular curved path is calculated in such a way that it curves onto itself, so you’re orbiting.

该特定弯曲路径的计算方式是使其自身弯曲，因此您正在绕轨道运行。

It has to be cruising at a certain speed, so once you get it at that cruising speed, you turn off the engines.

它必须以一定的速度巡航，因此一旦达到该巡航速度，就关闭发动机。

Yeah, to be able to visualize at the beginning of the 20th century that not that free-falling in curved space-time, boy, the human mind is capable of things.

是的，在 20 世纪初能够想象到，在弯曲的时空里自由落体，人类的思维是有能力做事的。

57:52 I mean, some of that is constructing thought experiments that collide with our understanding of reality.

我的意思是，其中一些正在构建与我们对现实的理解相冲突的思想实验。

Maybe in the collisions, in the contradictions, you try to think of extreme thought experiments that exacerbate that contradiction and see, “Okay, actually, is there another model that can incorporate this?” To be able to do that, I mean, it’s kind of inspiring because there’s probably another general relativity out there in all, not just in physics, in all lines of work, in all scientific pursuits.

也许在冲突中，在矛盾中，你尝试思考加剧矛盾的极端思想实验，然后看看，“好吧，实际上，是否有另一个模型可以整合这个？”我的意思是，能够做到这一点是令人鼓舞的，因为可能存在另一种广义相对论，不仅仅是在物理学中，在所有工作领域，在所有科学追求中。

There’s certain theories where you’re like, “Okay, I just explained a big elephant in the room here that everybody just kind of didn’t even think about.”

对于某些理论，你会说：“好吧，我刚刚解释了房间里有一头大象，但每个人都没有想到。”

58:58 There could be, for stuff we know about in physics, there could be stuff like that for the origin of life on earth.

对于我们在物理学中所知的东西，可能存在与地球上生命起源类似的东西。

Everyone’s like, “Yeah, okay.” Everyone’s like in polite companies.

每个人都会说：“是啊，好吧。”每个人都像在礼貌的公司里一样。

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

是啊，是啊，是啊，是啊。

Somehow it started.

不知怎的，它开始了。

Nobody knows.

没有人知道。

Yeah, I find it wild that that’s so elusive.

是的，我觉得这太难以捉摸了，这很疯狂。

Yeah, it’s strange.

是的，这很奇怪。

59:19 In the lab, you can’t replicate-

在实验室里，你无法复制——

Strange that it’s so elusive.

奇怪的是它是如此难以捉摸。

I think it’s a general relativity thing.

我认为这是广义相对论的事情。

59:22 There’s going to be something, it’s going to involve aliens and worm holes and dimensions that we don’t quite understand, or some field that’s bigger than …

将会有一些东西，它将涉及外星人、虫洞和我们不太了解的维度，或者一些比……更大的领域。

It’s possible.

这是可能的。

Maybe not.

也许不是。

It’s possible that it’s a field that is different, that will feel fundamentally different from chemistry and biology.

这可能是一个不同的领域，感觉与化学和生物学有根本的不同。

It’ll be maybe through physics, again, maybe the key to the origin of life is in physics.

也许会通过物理学，再说一遍，也许生命起源的关键就在物理学。

The same there, it’s like a weird neighbor is consciousness.

同样的，意识就像一个奇怪的邻居。

It’s like, all right.

就像，好吧。

A weird neighbor.

一个奇怪的邻居。

It’s like, okay, so we all know that life started on earth somehow.

就像，好吧，所以我们都知道生命以某种方式开始在地球上。

59:58 Nobody knows how.

没有人知道怎么做。

We all know that we’re conscious.

我们都知道我们是有意识的。

We have a subjective experience of things and nobody understands.

我们对事物有主观体验，但没有人理解。

That people have ideas and so on, but it’s such a dark, we’re entering a dark room where a bunch of people are whispering about, “Hey, what’s in this room?” Nobody has an effing clue, and then somebody comes along with a general relativity kind of conception where it reconceives everything and you’re like, “Ah.”

人们有想法等等，但是太黑了，我们正在进入一个黑暗的房间，一群人在窃窃私语，“嘿，这个房间里有什么？”没有人有任何线索，然后有人提出了一种广义相对论的概念，它重新构想了一切，你就像，“啊。”

It’s like a watershed moment.

这就像一个分水岭时刻。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

1:00:37 It’s there.

它就在那里。

It’s there.

它就在那里。

We’re in a time until that theory comes along and it’ll be obvious in retrospect, but right now we’re-

我们正处于这个理论出现之前的时代，回想起来它会很明显，但现在我们-

Right.

对。

1:00:47 Well, this, it was obvious to no one, that space-time was curved, but even Newton understood something wasn’t right.

嗯，这一点，没有人知道时空是弯曲的，但即使是牛顿也明白有些事情不对劲。

He knew to his something missing.

他知道自己缺少了一些东西。

I think that’s always fascinating when we’re in a situation where we’re pressure testing our own ideas.

我认为当我们处于对自己的想法进行压力测试的情况时，这总是很有趣的。

He did something remarkable, Newton did, with his theory of gravity, just understanding that the same phenomenon was at work with the earth around the sun as the apple falling from the tree.

他做了一件了不起的事，牛顿用他的万有引力理论做到了，他只是明白，就像苹果从树上掉下来一样，地球围绕太阳运行也存在同样的现象。

That’s insane.

这太疯狂了。

That’s a huge leap.

这是一个巨大的飞跃。

Understanding that mass, inertial mass, what makes something hard to push around is the same thing that feels gravity, at least in the Newtonian picture, in that simple way.

理解质量、惯性质量、使物体难以推动的因素与感受重力的因素是一样的，至少在牛顿的图像中是这样简单的。

Unbelievable leap.

令人难以置信的飞跃。

Absolutely genius, but he didn’t like that the apple fell from the tree, even though the earth wasn’t touching it.

绝对的天才，但他不喜欢苹果从树上掉下来，即使地球没有接触它。

Yeah.

是的。

1:01:41 The action-at-a-distance thing.

远距离行动的事情。

The action-at-a-distance thing.

远距离行动的事情。

That is weird too.

这也很奇怪。

Well, but-

好吧，但是——

That is a really weird one.

这实在是一件很奇怪的事情。

It’s really weird, but see Einstein solves that.

这真的很奇怪，但看看爱因斯坦解决了这个问题。

1:01:48 Relativity solves that, because it says the earth created the curve in space.

相对论解决了这个问题，因为它说地球创造了空间曲线。

The apple wants to fall freely along it.

苹果想要沿着它自由落下。

The problem is the tree’s in the way.

问题是树挡住了路。

When the tree …

当树...

1:02:00 …

……

Along it.

沿着它。

The problem is the tree’s in the way.

问题是树挡住了路。

The tree is the problem.

树是问题所在。

The tree is actually accelerating the apple.

这棵树实际上是在加速苹果的生长。

It’s keeping it away from its natural state of weightlessness in a gravitational field.

它使它远离重力场中的自然失重状态。

And as soon as the tree lets go of it, the apple will simply fall along the curve that exists.

一旦树放开它，苹果就会沿着现有的曲线掉落。

I would love it if somebody went back to Newton’s time…

如果有人回到牛顿时代我会很高兴......

And told him all this?

并且把这一切都告诉了他？

Probably some hippie would be like, “Gravity is just a curvature in space-time, man.” Every idea has its time, he might not even be able to load that in.

也许一些嬉皮士会说，“重力只是时空的弯曲，伙计。”每个想法都有它的时间，他甚至可能无法加载它。

1:02:22 Sometimes even the greatest geniuses-

有时即使是最伟大的天才——

It’s too out of context.

这也太断章取义了。

You need to be standing on the shoulders of giants and on the shoulders of those giants and so on.

你需要站在巨人的肩膀上，站在那些巨人的肩膀上等等。

I heard that Newton used that as an unkind remark to his competitor, Hooke.

我听说牛顿用这句话作为对他的竞争对手胡克的不友善评论。

Oh, no.

哦，不。

1:02:57 So people talked shit even back then.

所以那时候人们就说废话了。

Trash talking.

垃圾话。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

1:03:04 It’s one of the hilarious things about humans in general, but scientists too, these huge minds…

这是人类最搞笑的事情之一，但科学家们也是如此，这些巨大的头脑……

There’s moments in history where, you’ll see this in universities, but everywhere else too, you have gigantic minds, obviously also coupled with everybody has an ego, and sometimes it’s just the same soap opera that played out amongst humans everywhere else.

在历史上的某些时刻，你会在大学里看到这一点，但在其他地方也一样，你有巨大的头脑，显然每个人都有自我，有时这只是在其他地方的人类中上演的同样的肥皂剧。

And so you’re thinking about the biggest cosmological objects and forces and ideas, and you’re still jealous.

所以你在思考最大的宇宙物体、力量和想法，但你仍然嫉妒。

I know.

我知道。

1:03:42 It’s Fascinating.

太迷人了。

Your office is bigger than my office.

你的办公室比我的办公室大。

I know

我知道

This chair…

这把椅子…

1:03:43 Or maybe you got married to this person that I was always in love with, it’s a betrayal or something.

或者也许你嫁给了我一直深爱的这个人，这是背叛什么的。

The one woman in the department.

部门里唯一的女性。

Yeah, the one woman in the department.

是的，部门里唯一的女人。

1:03:53 But that is also the fuel of innovation, that jealousy, that tension.

但这也是创新的燃料，那种嫉妒和紧张。

You know the expression, I’m sure, the battles are so bitter in academia because the stakes are so low.

我相信你知道这句话，学术界的斗争如此激烈，因为风险如此之低。

That’s a beautiful way to phrase it.

这是一个很好的表达方式。

1:04:08 But also we shouldn’t forget, I love seeing that even in academia, because it’s humanity, the silliness.

但我们也不应该忘记，即使在学术界，我也喜欢看到这种情况，因为这是人性，是愚蠢的。

There is a degree to academia where the reason you’re able to think about some of these grand ideas is because you still allow yourself to be childlike, because there’s a childlike nature to ask the big question, but children can also be like…

在学术界有一个程度，你之所以能够思考这些伟大的想法，是因为你仍然允许自己像孩子一样，因为有一种孩子般的天性来提出大问题，但孩子也可以像……

Children.

孩子们。

Children.

孩子们。

1:04:35 I think when in a corporate context and maybe the world forces you to behave, you’re supposed to be a certain kind of way, there’s some aspects, and it’s a really beautiful aspect to preserve and to celebrate in academia is you’re just allowed to be childlike in your curiosity and your exploration.

我认为，当在企业环境中，也许世界迫使你采取某种行为时，你应该以某种方式行事，有某些方面，在学术界保留和庆祝的一个非常美丽的方面是你被允许在好奇心和探索中像孩子一样。

You’re just exploring, asking the biggest questions.

你只是在探索，提出最大的问题。

The best scientists I know often ask the simplest questions.

我认识的最好的科学家经常问最简单的问题。

1:05:03 First of all, there’s probably some confidence there, but also they’re never going to lie to themselves that they understand something that they don’t understand.

首先，他们可能有一些信心，但他们也永远不会欺骗自己说他们理解了他们不理解的东西。

So even this idea that Newton didn’t understand the apple falling from the tree, had he lived another couple hundred of years, he would’ve invented relativity, because he never would’ve lied to himself that he understood it.

因此，即使牛顿不理解苹果从树上掉下来的想法，如果他再活几百年，他也会发明相对论，因为他永远不会欺骗自己说他理解它。

He would’ve kept asking this very simple question.

他会一直问这个非常简单的问题。

And I think that there is this childlike beauty to that, absolutely.

我认为这绝对有一种童真之美。

Yeah, just some of the topics, I don’t know why I’m stuck to those two topics of origin of life and consciousness, but there’s-

是的，只是一些主题，我不知道为什么我会坚持生命起源和意识这两个主题，但是有——

I’ll talk about those.

我会谈谈这些。

Some of the most brilliant people I know, just like with Newton and Einstein, they’re stuck on that this doesn’t make sense.

我认识的一些最聪明的人，就像牛顿和爱因斯坦一样，他们坚持认为这没有意义。

1:05:49 I know a bunch of brilliant biologists, physicists, chemists that are thinking about the origin of life, they’re like, “I know how evolution works, I know how the biological systems work, how genetic information propagates, but this part, this singularity at the beginning doesn’t make sense.

我认识一群杰出的生物学家、物理学家、化学家，他们正在思考生命的起源，他们会说，“我知道进化是如何运作的，我知道生物系统是如何运作的，遗传信息是如何传播的，但这部分，一开始的奇点是没有意义的。

We don’t understand, we can’t create it in a lab.” Every single day they’re bothered by it.

我们不明白，我们无法在实验室中创造它。”他们每天都被它困扰。

And that being bothered by that tension, by that gap in knowledge, that’s the catalyst, that’s the fuel for the-

受到这种紧张、知识差距的困扰，这就是催化剂，这是——

Discovery.

发现。

The discovery.

这个发现。

Yeah, absolutely.

是的，绝对是。

1:06:30 The discovery is going to come because somebody couldn’t sleep at night and couldn’t rest.

这一发现之所以会出现，是因为有人晚上无法入睡、无法休息。

So in that way, I think black holes are a portal into some of the biggest mysteries of our universe, so it’s a good terrain I wish to explore these ideas.

因此，我认为黑洞是通往我们宇宙中一些最大谜团的门户，所以这是我希望探索这些想法的一个好领域。

1:06:37 So can you speak about some of the mysteries that the black holes present us with?

那么您能谈谈黑洞给我们带来的一些谜团吗？

Yeah.

是的。

1:06:53 I think it’s important to separate the idea that there are these astrophysical states that become black holes, from being synonymous with black holes, because black holes are this larger idea, and they might’ve been made primordially when the Big Bang happened.

我认为将这些天体物理状态变成黑洞的想法与黑洞的同义词分开是很重要的，因为黑洞是一个更大的想法，它们可能是在大爆炸发生时最初形成的。

And there’s something flawless about black holes that makes them fundamental, unlike anything else.

黑洞有一种完美无瑕的特质，这使得它们成为了与其他事物不同的基础。

So they’re flawless in the sense that you can completely understand a black hole by looking at just its electric charge, its mass and its spin.

因此，它们是完美的，因为你只需观察黑洞的电荷、质量和自旋就可以完全理解黑洞。

And every black hole with that charge mass and spin is identical to every other black hole.

每个具有该电荷质量和自旋的黑洞都与其他黑洞相同。

You can’t be like, “Oh, that one’s mine, I recognize it.

你不能说，“哦，那是我的，我认得它。

It has this little feature and that’s how I know it’s mine.” They’re featureless.

它有这个小功能，这就是我知道它是我的的原因。”他们毫无特色。

You try to put Mount Everest on a black hole and it will shake it off in these gravitational waves.

你试图把珠穆朗玛峰放在一个黑洞上，它会在这些引力波中将其震落。

It will radiate away this imperfection until it settles down to be a perfect black hole again.

它会辐射掉这种缺陷，直到它再次成为一个完美的黑洞。

1:08:01 So there’s something about them that is, and another reason why I don’t like to call them objects in a traditional sense, unlike anything else in the universe that’s macroscopic.

所以它们有一些东西，这也是我不喜欢将它们称为传统意义上的物体的另一个原因，与宇宙中宏观的任何其他物体不同。

It’s a little bit more like a fundamental particle.

它更像是一个基本粒子。

So an electron is described by a certain short list of properties, charge, mass, spin, maybe some other quantum numbers.

因此，电子是由一系列简短的属性来描述的，例如电荷、质量、自旋，也许还有一些其他量子数。

That’s what it means to be an electron.

这就是成为电子的意义。

There’s no electron that’s a little bit different.

没有电子有一点不同。

You can’t recognize your electron.

你无法识别你的电子。

They’re all identical in that sense.

从这个意义上说，它们都是相同的。

And so in some very abstract way, black holes share something in common with microscopic fundamental particles.

因此，以某种非常抽象的方式，黑洞与微观基本粒子有一些共同点。

And so what they tell us about the fundamental laws of physics can be very profound, and it’s why even theoretical physicists, mathematical physicists, not just astronomers who use telescopes, they rely on the black hole as a terrain to perform their thought experiments, and it’s because there’s something fundamental about them.

因此，它们告诉我们的有关物理基本定律的内容可能非常深刻，这就是为什么即使是理论物理学家、数学物理学家，而不仅仅是使用望远镜的天文学家，他们也依赖黑洞作为进行思想实验的地形，因为它们有一些基本的东西。

Yeah, general relativity means quantum mechanics means singularity.

是的，广义相对论意味着量子力学意味着奇点。

And it happens there.

它发生在那里。

And sadly, heartbreakingly so, it’s out of reach for experiment at this moment, but it’s within reach for theoretical.

可悲的是，令人心碎的是，目前实验还无法实现，但理论上可以实现。

It’s in reach for thought experiments, which are quite beautiful.

它可以进行思想实验，这是非常美丽的。

Well, on that topic, we have to ask you about the information paradox of black holes.

那么，关于这个话题，我们不得不问你关于黑洞信息悖论的问题。

1:09:29 What is it?

它是什么？

So this is what catapulted Hawking’s fame.

这就是霍金名声大噪的原因。

1:09:36 When he was a young researcher, he was thinking about black holes and wanted to just add a little smidge of quantum mechanics, just a little smidge.

当他还是一名年轻的研究人员时，他正在考虑黑洞，并想添加一点点量子力学，一点点。

Wasn’t going for full-blown quantum gravity, but just asking, “Well, what if I allowed this nothing, this vacuum, this empty space around the event horizon, the stars gone, there’s nothing there, what if I allowed it to possess ordinary quantum properties, just a little tiny bit, nothing dramatic?

并不是要追求成熟的量子引力，而只是问，“好吧，如果我什么也没有允许，这个真空，事件视界周围的空旷空间，恒星消失了，那里什么也没有，如果我允许它拥有普通的量子特性，只是一点点，没有什么戏剧性的，会怎么样？

Don’t go crazy.” And one of the properties of the vacuum that is intriguing is this idea that you can never see the vacuums actually completely empty.

别发疯了。”真空的一个有趣的特性是，你永远看不到真空实际上是完全空的。

We talked about Heisenberg, the Heisenberg uncertainty principle really kicked off a lot of quantum mechanical thinking, it says that you can never exactly know a particle’s position simultaneously with its motion, with its momentum.

我们谈到了海森堡，海森堡不确定性原理确实引发了很多量子力学思维，它说你永远无法同时准确地知道粒子的位置及其运动和动量。

You can know one or the other pretty precisely, but not both precisely.

你可以相当准确地了解其中之一，但不能同时准确地了解两者。

1:10:42 And the uncertainty isn’t a lack of ability that we’ll technologically overcome.

不确定性并不是我们缺乏通过技术克服的能力。

It’s foundational.

这是基础。

In some sense, when it’s in a precise location, it is fundamentally no longer in a precise motion.

从某种意义上来说，当它处于一个精确的位置时，它就根本上不再是一个精确的运动了。

And that uncertainty principle means I can’t precisely say a particle is exactly here, but it also means I can’t say it’s not.

不确定性原理意味着我不能准确地说一个粒子确实在这里，但也意味着我不能说它不在这里。

And so it led to this idea that what do I mean by a vacuum?

所以这就产生了这样一个想法：真空是什么意思？

Because I can’t 100% precisely know.

因为我无法100%准确地知道。

In fact, there’s not really meaningful to say that there’s zero particles here.

事实上，说这里的粒子为零并没有多大意义。

And so what you can say however, is you can say, “Well, maybe particles froth around in this seething quantum sea of the vacuum.

所以你可以说，你可以说，“好吧，也许粒子在真空的这个沸腾的量子海洋中泡沫。

Maybe two particles come into existence and they’re entangled in such a way that they cancel out each other’s properties so they have the properties of the vacuum.

也许存在两个粒子，它们以这样一种方式纠缠在一起，抵消了彼此的属性，因此它们具有真空的属性。

They don’t destroy the properties of the vacuum.

它们不会破坏真空的特性。

They cancel out each other, spin maybe, each other’s charge maybe, things like that, but they froth around.

它们相互抵消，也许是旋转，也许是彼此的电荷，诸如此类的事情，但它们到处都是泡沫。

They come, they go, they come, they go.”

他们来了，他们走了，他们来了，他们走了。”

1:11:51 And that’s what we really think is the best that empty space can do in a quantum mechanical universe.

这就是我们真正认为的真空在量子力学宇宙中所能做到的最好的效果。

Now, if you add an event horizon, which, as we said, is really fundamentally what a black hole is, that’s the most important feature of a black hole.

现在，如果添加一个事件视界，正如我们所说，它本质上就是黑洞，这是黑洞最重要的特征。

The event horizon, if the particles are created slightly on either side of that event horizon, now you have a real problem.

事件视界，如果粒子是在事件视界的两侧稍微产生的，那么现在你遇到了一个真正的问题。

Now the pair has been separated by this event horizon.

现在，这两对已被事件视界分开。

Now, they can both fall in, that’s okay, but if one falls in and the other doesn’t, it’s stuck.

现在，他们都可以掉进去，没关系，但如果一个掉进去而另一个没有掉进去，那就卡住了。

It can’t go back into the vacuum because now it has a charge or it has a spin or it has something that’s no longer the property of that vacuum it came from, it needs its pair to disappear.

它不能回到真空中，因为现在它带有电荷，或者有自旋，或者它有一些不再是它所来自的真空的属性的东西，它需要它的配对消失。

Now it’s stuck.

现在卡住了。

It exists.

它存在。

It’s like you’ve made it real.

就像你已经让它成为现实一样。

1:12:44 So, in a sense, the black hole steals one of these virtual particles and forces the other to live.

因此，从某种意义上说，黑洞窃取了这些虚拟粒子中的一个，并迫使另一个生存。

And if it’ll escape, radiate out to infinity and look like to an observer far away that the black hole is actually radiated a particle.

如果它逃逸了，就会辐射到无穷远，在远处的观察者看来，黑洞实际上是在辐射一个粒子。

Now, the particle did not emanate from inside.

现在，粒子并不是从内部散发出来的。

It came from the vacuum.

它来自真空。

It stole it from empty space, from the nothingness that is the black hole.

它从虚无的空间、从黑洞的虚无中偷走了它。

Now, the reason why this is very tricky is because in the process, because of the separation on other side of the event horizon, the particle it absorbs, it has to do with the switching of space and time that we talked about, but the particle, it absorbs, well, from the outside you might say, “Oh, it had negative momentum.

现在，这非常棘手的原因是因为在这个过程中，由于事件视界另一侧的分离，它吸收的粒子，它与我们谈到的空间和时间的切换有关，但是粒子，它从外部吸收，你可能会说，“哦，它有负动量。

It was falling in from the inside.”

它是从里面掉下来的。”

1:13:34 You say, “Well, this is actually motion and time.” This is energy.

你说：“嗯，这实际上是运动和时间。”这就是能量。

If it has negative energy and it has absorbs negative energy, it’s mass goes down, black hole gets a little lighter.

如果它具有负能量并且吸收了负能量，它的质量就会下降，黑洞会变得更轻。

And as it continues to do this, the black hole really begins to evaporate.

当它继续这样做时，黑洞真的开始蒸发。

It does more than just radiate.

它的作用不仅仅是辐射。

It evaporates away.

它蒸发了。

And it’s intriguing because Hawking said, “Look, this is going to look thermal, meaning featureless.

这很有趣，因为霍金说：“看，这看起来很热，意味着毫无特色。

It’s going to have no information in it.

里面不会有任何信息。

It’s going to be the most informationless possibility you could possibly come up with when you’re radiating particles.

当你辐射粒子时，这将是你可能想到的最无信息的可能性。

It’s just going to look like a thermal distribution of particles like a hot body.

它看起来就像是热体一样的粒子热分布。

And the temperature is going to only tell you about the mass, which you could tell from outside the black hole anyway, you know the mass of the black hole from the outside.

温度只会告诉你质量，无论如何你都可以从黑洞外部知道质量，你从外部知道黑洞的质量。

So it’s not telling you anything about the black hole.

所以它并没有告诉你任何关于黑洞的信息。

It’s got no information about the black hole.

它没有关于黑洞的信息。

Now you have a real problem.”

现在你遇到了一个真正的问题。”

1:14:27 And when he first said it, not everyone understood how really naughty he was being.

当他第一次说这句话时，并不是每个人都明白他有多么顽皮。

He did.

他做到了。

But some people who love quantum mechanics were really annoyed, people like Lenny Susskind, Gerard’t Hooft, Nobel Prize winner, they were mad because it suggested something was fundamentally wrong with quantum mechanics if it was right.

但一些热爱量子力学的人真的很恼火，像伦尼·苏斯金德、诺贝尔奖获得者杰拉德·霍夫特这样的人，他们很生气，因为这表明量子力学如果是正确的，那就有根本性的错误。

And the reason why it says there’s something fundamentally wrong with quantum mechanics is because quantum mechanics does not allow this.

之所以说量子力学存在根本性错误，是因为量子力学不允许这样做。

It does not allow quantum information to simply evaporate away and poof out of the universe and cease to exist.

它不允许量子信息简单地蒸发并从宇宙中消失并不再存在。

It’s a violation of something called unitarity, but really the idea is it’s the loss of quantum information that’s intolerable.

这违反了幺正性，但实际上，量子信息的丢失是无法容忍的。

Quantum mechanics was built to preserve information.

量子力学的建立是为了保存信息。

It’s one of the sacred principles.

这是神圣的原则之一。

As sacred as conservation of energy.

与能量守恒一样神圣。

1:15:20 In this example, more sacred, because you can violate conservation of energy with Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle a little tiny bit, but so sacred that it created what became coined as the black hole wars where people were saying, “Look, general relativity is wrong, something’s wrong with our thinking about the event horizon, or quantum mechanics isn’t what we think it is, but the two are not getting along anymore.” And just to tell you how dramatic it is, so the temperature goes down with the mass of the black hole, heavier black hole, the cooler it is.

在这个例子中，更神圣的是，因为你可以稍微违反海森堡不确定性原理的能量守恒，但它是如此神圣，以至于它创造了后来被称为黑洞战争的东西，人们说，“看，广义相对论是错误的，我们对事件视界的思考有问题，或者量子力学不是我们想象的那样，但两者不再相处了。”只是为了告诉你这是多么戏剧性，所以温度随着黑洞的质量而下降，黑洞越重，温度就越低。

So we don’t see black holes evaporate, they’re way too big.

所以我们没有看到黑洞蒸发，它们太大了。

But as they get smaller and smaller, they get hotter and hotter.

但随着它们变得越来越小，它们变得越来越热。

So as a black hole nears the end of this cycle, of evaporating away, it takes a very long time, much longer than the age of the universe.

因此，当黑洞接近这个周期的末尾时，它会蒸发掉，需要很长的时间，比宇宙的年龄长得多。

It will be as though the current and the event horizon is yanked up, it’ll literally explode away, just boom.

就好像水流和视界被拉了起来，它实际上会爆炸，只是轰隆隆。

And the event horizon in principle would be yanked up, everything’s gone.

原则上，事件视界将会被拉起，一切都消失了。

All that information that went into the black hole, all that sacred quantum stuff gone.

所有进入黑洞的信息，所有神圣的量子物质都消失了。

Poof.

噗。

1:16:29 Because not in the radiation, because the radiation has no information.

因为不在辐射中，因为辐射没有信息。

And so it was an incredibly productive debate because in it are the signs of what will make gravity and quantum mechanics play nice together, some quantum theory of gravity, whatever these clues are, and they’re hard to assemble, if you want a quantum gravity theory, it has to correctly predict the temperature of a black hole, the entropy of a black hole.

所以这是一场非常富有成效的辩论，因为其中有迹象表明什么能让引力和量子力学很好地结合在一起，一些量子引力理论，无论这些线索是什么，它们很难组合，如果你想要一个量子引力理论，它必须正确预测黑洞的温度，黑洞的熵。

It has to have all of these correct features.

它必须具有所有这些正确的功能。

The black hole is the place on which we can test quantum gravity.

黑洞是我们可以测试量子引力的地方。

But it still has not been resolved.

但事情仍然没有解决。

It has not been fully resolved.

问题还没有完全解决。

I looked up all the different ideas for the resolution.

我查阅了该决议的所有不同想法。

1:17:09 So there’s the information loss, which is what you refer to.

所以这就是你所说的信息丢失。

It’s perhaps the simplest yet most radical resolution is that information is truly lost.

也许最简单但也是最根本的解决方案是信息确实丢失了。

This would mean quantum mechanics as we currently understand it, specifically unitarity, is incomplete or incorrect under these extreme gravitational conditions.

这意味着我们目前所理解的量子力学，特别是幺正性，在这些极端的引力条件下是不完整或不正确的。

I’m unhappy with that.

我对此不满意。

1:17:29 I would not be happy with information loss.

我不会对信息丢失感到高兴。

I love that it’s telling us that there’s this crisis because I do think it’s giving us the clues, and we have to take them seriously.

我喜欢它告诉我们存在这场危机，因为我确实认为它给了我们线索，我们必须认真对待它们。

For you the gut is like-

对你来说，肠道就像——

Unitarity is going to be preserved.

统一性将得到保留。

Preserved, so quantum mechanics is [inaudible 01:17:47]

保留下来，所以量子力学是[听不清 01:17:47]

We have to come to the rescue.

我们必须出手救援。

1:17:46 Lenny Susskind in his book, Black Hole Wars, his subtitle is My Battle with Stephen Hawking to Make the World Safe for Quantum Mechanics.

莱尼·萨斯金德在他的书《黑洞战争》中，他的副标题是“我与斯蒂芬·霍金的战斗，让世界对量子力学来说更加安全”。

Quantum Mechanics, I love it.

量子力学，我喜欢。

It’s something to that effect.

正是出于这个目的。

So then from string theory, one of the resolutions is called fuzz balls.

因此，从弦理论来看，其中一种解决方案称为毛球。

1:17:59 I love physics so much.

我非常喜欢物理。

Originating from string theory, this proposal suggests that black holes aren’t singularities surrounded by empty space and an event horizon.

该提议源于弦理论，表明黑洞并不是被真空和事件视界包围的奇点。

Instead, they are horizonless, complex, tangled objects, AKA fuzz balls made of strings and brains roughly the size of the would-be event horizon.

相反，它们是无地平线的、复杂的、纠结的物体，又名由绳子和大脑组成的毛球，其大小与潜在的事件视界大致相同。

There’s no single point of infinite density and no true horizon to cross.

没有无限密度的单点，也没有真正可以跨越的地平线。

In some sense it says there’s no interior to the black hole, nothing of a cross.

从某种意义上说，它说黑洞没有内部，也没有十字。

1:18:26 So I gave you this very nice story that there’s no drama, sometimes that’s how it’s described, at the event horizon, and you fall through and there’s nothing there.

所以我给你们讲了这个非常精彩的故事，没有戏剧性，有时就是这样描述的，在事件视界，你掉下去，那里什么也没有。

This other idea says, “Well, hold on a second, if it’s really strings, as I get close to this magnifying quality and this slowing time down near the event horizon it is as though I put a magnifying glass on things and now the strings aren’t so microscopic, they smear around, and then they get caught like a tangle around the event horizon, and they just actually never fall through.” I don’t think that either, but it was interesting.

这个另一个想法说，“好吧，等一下，如果它真的是弦，当我接近这种放大质量和在事件视界附近减慢时间时，就好像我在物体上放了一个放大镜，现在弦不再那么微观，它们涂抹在周围，然后它们像事件视界周围的缠结一样被缠住，实际上它们永远不会掉下来。”我也不这么认为，但这很有趣。

So it’s just adding a very large number of extra complex…

所以它只是添加了大量额外的复杂......

Degrees of freedom.

自由度。

Yeah.

是的。

There are no teeny tiny marbles to fall through.

没有任何微小的弹珠可以掉下来。

But it’s similar to what we already have with quantum mechanics.

但这与我们已经掌握的量子力学相似。

1:19:12 It’s just giving a deeper more complicated-

它只是提供了更深层次、更复杂的——

But it’s really saying the interior’s just not there ever.

但这实际上是在说内饰根本不存在。

1:19:16 Nothing falls in, so the information gets out because it never went in the first place.

没有任何东西掉进去，所以信息就被泄露了，因为它从一开始就没有被泄露出去。

Oh, interesting.

哦，有趣。

1:19:22 So there is a strong statement there, okay.

所以这里有一个强有力的声明，好吧。

There’s a strong statement there, yeah.

那里有一个强有力的声明，是的。

Okay.

好的。

1:19:26 Soft hair challenges the classical no-hair theorem by suggesting that black holes do possess subtle quantum, quote, hair.

软头发挑战了经典的无头发定理，表明黑洞确实拥有微妙的量子头发。

This isn’t classical hair like charge, but very low energy quantum excitations, soft gravitons or photons at the event horizon that can store information about what fell in.

这不是经典的头发状电荷，而是事件视界中能量非常低的量子激发、软引力子或光子，可以存储有关落入物体的信息。

Worth trying but I also don’t think that that’s the case.

值得尝试，但我也不认为是这样。

1:19:47 So the no-hair theorems are formal proofs that the black hole is this featureless perfect fundamental particle that we talked about, that all you can ever tell about the black hole is it’s electrical charge, it’s mass and it’s spin, and that it cannot possess other features.

因此，无毛定理是正式的证明，证明黑洞是我们讨论过的这种无特征的完美基本粒子，关于黑洞，你所能知道的只是它的电荷、质量和自旋，并且它不能拥有其他特征。

It has no hair, is one way of describing it, and that those are proven mathematical proofs in the context of general relativity.

它没有头发，这是描述它的一种方式，并且这些都是广义相对论背景下经过验证的数学证明。

So the idea is, well, therefore, I can know nothing about what goes into the black hole, so the information is lost.

所以这个想法是，因此，我对进入黑洞的东西一无所知，所以信息就丢失了。

But if they could have hair, I could say that’s my black hole, because it’ll have features that I could distinguish and it could encode the information that went in this way.

但如果它们有头发，我可以说那是我的黑洞，因为它将具有我可以区分的特征，并且可以对以这种方式传递的信息进行编码。

And the event horizon isn’t so serious, isn’t such a stark demarcation between events inside and outside and where I can’t know what happened inside or outside, and I don’t think that’s the resolution either, but it was worth a shot.

事件视界并没有那么严重，内部和外部事件之间的界限也没有那么明显，我不知道内部或外部发生了什么，我也不认为这就是解决方案，但值得一试。

Okay.

好的。

1:20:44 The pros and cons of that one, the pros that works within the framework of quantum field theory in curved space-time potentially requiring less radical modifications than fuzzballs or information loss.

这一方法的优点和缺点是，在弯曲时空的量子场论框架内工作的优点可能需要比模糊球或信息丢失更少的激进修改。

Recent work by Hawking, Perry, Strominger revitalizes this idea.

霍金、佩里、斯特罗明格最近的工作使这个想法焕发了活力。

The cons is that the precise mechanism by which information is encoded and transferred to the radiation is still debated and technically challenging to work out fully.

缺点是信息编码和传输到辐射的精确机制仍然存在争议，并且在技术上难以完全解决。

And indeed it needs to store a vast amount of information.

事实上它需要存储大量信息。

Okay, another one, this is a weird one, boy is ER equals EPR.

好吧，另一个，这很奇怪，男孩 ER 等于 EPR。

This is probably it though.

不过这大概就是这样了。

Oh, boy.

哦，男孩。

1:21:17 So ER equals EPR is an Einstein-Rosen bridge equals Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen bridge.

因此 ER 等于 EPR，爱因斯坦-罗森桥等于爱因斯坦-波多尔斯基-罗森桥。

Posits a deep connection between quantum entanglement and space-time geometry, specifically Einstein-Rosen bridge, commonly known as wormholes.

提出了量子纠缠和时空几何之间的深刻联系，特别是爱因斯坦-罗森桥，通常称为虫洞。

It suggests that entangled particles are connected by a non-traversable wormhole, so tiny wormholes connected.

它表明纠缠粒子是通过不可穿越的虫洞连接起来的，因此微小的虫洞是相连的。

Okay.

好的。

I can say that this is not a situation where we can follow the chalk.

我可以说，这不是我们可以遵循的情况。

1:21:44 We can’t start at the beginning and calculate to the end.

我们不能从头算起，算到最后。

So it’s still a conjecture.

所以这仍然是一个猜想。

I think it’s very profound though.

我认为这是非常深刻的。

I imagine Juan Maldacena, who’s part of this, with Lenny Susskind, they were like, “ER equals EPR.” They couldn’t even formulate it properly.

我想象胡安·马尔达西纳（Juan Maldacena）和莱尼·苏斯金德（Lenny Susskind）是其中的一部分，他们就像，“ER 等于 EPR。”他们甚至无法正确地表述它。

It was like an intuition that they had landed on and now are trying to formalize.

这就像他们已经形成的直觉，现在正试图将其形式化。

But to take a step back, one way of thinking about ER equals EPR, you have to talk about holography first.

但退一步来说，考虑 ER 等于 EPR 的一种方式是，你必须首先谈论全息术。

And holography both Juan Maldacena really formalized it, Lenny Susskind suggested it.

莱尼·苏斯金德 (Lenny Susskind) 提出，胡安·马尔达西纳 (Juan Maldacena) 和全息术确实将其形式化。

The idea of a black hole hologram is that all of the information in the black hole, whatever it is, whatever entropy as a measure of information, whatever the entropy of the black hole is, which is telling you how much information is hidden in there, how much information you don’t have direct access to, in some sense, is completely encoded in the area of the black hole.

黑洞全息图的想法是，黑洞中的所有信息，无论是什么，无论作为信息度量的熵是什么，无论黑洞的熵是什么，它告诉你有多少信息隐藏在其中，有多少信息你无法直接访问，在某种意义上，都完全编码在黑洞区域中。

1:22:45 Meaning, as the area grows, the entropy grows.

这意味着，随着面积的增加，熵也会增加。

It does not grow as the volume.

它不会随着体积而增长。

This actually turns out to be really, really important.

事实证明这真的非常非常重要。

If I tried to pack a lot of information into a volume, more information than I could pack, let’s say, on the surface of a black hole, I would simply make a black hole and I would find out, oh, I can’t have more information than I can fit on the surface.

如果我试图将大量信息打包到一个卷中，比我可以打包的信息更多，比方说，在黑洞表面，我会简单地制作一个黑洞，然后我会发现，哦，我不能拥有比表面所能容纳的更多的信息。

So Lenny coined this a hologram.

所以莱尼创造了全息图。

People who take it very seriously say, “Well, again, maybe the interior of the black hole just doesn’t exist.

认真对待这个问题的人会说：“好吧，再说一遍，也许黑洞的内部根本不存在。

It’s a holographic projection of this two-dimensional surface.” In fact, maybe I should take it all the way and say so are we.

这是这个二维表面的全息投影。”事实上，也许我应该坦然接受并说我们也是。

The whole universe is a holographic projection of a lower dimensional surface.

整个宇宙是低维表面的全息投影。

And so people have struggled, nobody’s really landed it to find a universe version of it.

所以人们一直在努力，没有人真正找到它的宇宙版本。

1:23:33 Oh, maybe there’s a boundary to the universe where all the information is encoded and this entire three-dimensional reality that’s so compelling and so convincing is actually just a holographic projection.

哦，也许宇宙有一个边界，所有的信息都被编码，而整个三维现实如此引人注目、如此令人信服，实际上只是一个全息投影。

Juan Maldacena did something absolutely brilliant.

胡安·马尔达塞纳做了一件绝对出色的事情。

It’s the most highly cited paper in the history of physics.

这是物理学史上被引用次数最多的论文。

It was published in the late 90s.

它出版于20世纪90年代末。

It has a very opaque title that would not lead you to believe it’s as revelatory as it is, but he was able to show that a universe in a box with gravity in it, it’s not the same universe we observed.

它的标题非常不透明，不会让你相信它具有启示性，但他能够证明一个盒子里的宇宙，里面有引力，它与我们观察到的宇宙不同。

Doesn’t matter.

没关系。

It’s just a hypothetical called an anti-de Sitter space.

这只是一个假设，称为反德西特空间。

It’s a universe in a box.

这是一个盒子里的宇宙。

It has gravity, it has black holes, it has everything gravity can do in it.

它有引力，它有黑洞，它拥有引力所能做的一切。

1:24:15 On its boundary is a theory with no gravity, a universe that can be described with no gravity at all, so no black holes and no information loss problem, and they’re equivalent, that the interior universe in a box is a holographic projection of this quantum mechanics on the boundary, pure quantum mechanics, purely unitary, no loss of information.

在它的边界上是一个没有引力的理论，一个可以用完全没有引力来描述的宇宙，所以没有黑洞，没有信息丢失问题，它们是等价的，盒子里的内部宇宙是这个量子力学在边界上的全息投影，纯量子力学，纯粹统一，没有信息丢失。

None of this stuff could possibly be true.

这些东西都不可能是真的。

There can’t be loss of information if this dictionary really works, if the interior is a hologram, a projection of the boundary.

如果这本字典真的有效，如果内部是全息图，即边界的投影，就不会丢失信息。

I know that’s a lot.

我知道很多。

Yeah.

是的。

1:24:57 So there’s some mathematics there, there’s physics, and then there’s trying to conceive what that actually means practically for us.

因此，有一些数学，有物理，然后尝试构想这对我们来说实际上意味着什么。

Well, what it would mean for us is that information can’t be lost even if we don’t know how to show it in the description in which there are black holes, it means it can’t possibly be lost because it’s equivalent to this description with no gravity in it at all.

好吧，这对我们来说意味着，即使我们不知道如何在存在黑洞的描述中显示信息，信息也不会丢失，这意味着它不可能丢失，因为它相当于完全没有重力的描述。

1:25:07 No event horizons, no black holes, just quantum mechanics.

没有事件视界，没有黑洞，只有量子力学。

So it really strongly suggested that quantum mechanics was going to win in this battle, but it didn’t show exactly how it was going to win.

所以它确实强烈地表明量子力学将在这场战斗中获胜，但它并没有确切地表明它将如何获胜。

So then comes ER equals EPR.

那么 ER 等于 EPR。

A visual way to imagine what this means, so ER has to do with little wormholes, EPR, Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen, has to do with quantum entanglement.

一种直观的方式来想象这意味着什么，所以 ER 与小虫洞有关，EPR，爱因斯坦-波多尔斯基-罗森，与量子纠缠有关。

1:25:52 The idea was, well, maybe the stuff that’s interior to the black hole is, like EPR, quantum entangled, with the Hawking radiation outside the black hole that’s escaping.

这个想法是，嗯，也许黑洞内部的物质，比如 EPR，与正在逃逸的黑洞外部的霍金辐射发生量子纠缠。

And that quantum entanglement is what allows you to extract the information because it’s not actually physically moving from the interior to the exterior.

量子纠缠可以让你提取信息，因为它实际上并没有从内部移动到外部。

It’s just subtle quantum entanglement.

这只是微妙的量子纠缠。

An, in fact, I can think of the entire black hole.

安，事实上，我能想到整个黑洞。

If I look at it and it looks like a solid shadow cast on the sky, some region of space-time, if I look at it very closely, I will see, oh no, it’s actually sown from these quantum wormholes, like embroidered.

如果我看它，它看起来就像投射在天空、时空某个区域上的固体阴影，如果我仔细观察它，我会发现，哦不，它实际上是从这些量子虫洞中播种的，就像绣花一样。

And so when I get up close, it’s almost as though the event horizon isn’t the fundamental feature on the space-time.

因此，当我走近时，我发现事件视界几乎并不是时空的基本特征。

The fundamental feature is the quantum entanglement embroidering the event horizon.

基本特征是量子纠缠绣出事件视界。

The embroidering is just tiny wormholes.

刺绣只是微小的虫洞。

1:26:54 So the quantum entanglement is when two particles are connected at arbitrary distances?

那么量子纠缠是指两个粒子以任意距离连接？

And they’re connected by a wormhole.

它们通过虫洞连接起来。

And in this case, they’ll be connected by a wormhole?

在这种情况下，它们将通过虫洞连接起来？

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

1:27:08 So the reason why that’s helpful, it helps you connect the interior to the exterior without trying to pass through the event horizon.

所以这之所以有用，是因为它可以帮助您将内部与外部连接起来，而无需尝试穿过事件视界。

Now, the cons of this theory is highly conceptual and abstract.

现在，这个理论的缺点是高度概念化和抽象。

1:27:18 The exact mechanism for information retrieval via these non-traversable wormholes is not fully understood, primarily explored in theoretical toy models.

通过这些不可穿越的虫洞进行信息检索的确切机制尚不完全清楚，主要是在理论玩具模型中进行探索。

Whoa, [inaudible 01:27:36] going hard.

哇哦，[听不清 01:27:36] 努力吧。

Theoretical toy models like the anti-de Sitter space, space-time rather than realistic black holes.

理论玩具模型如反德西特空间、时空而不是现实的黑洞。

True.

真的。

1:27:45 We do what we can do in baby steps.

我们一步一步地做我们能做的事情。

So another idea to resolve the information paradox is firewalls, proposed by Almheiri, Marolf, Polchinski, and Sully, AMPS.

因此解决信息悖论的另一个想法是防火墙，由 AMPS 的 Almheiri、Marolf、Polchinski 和 Sully 提出。

1:27:49 This is a more drastic scenario arising from analyzing the entanglement to requirements of Hawking radiation to preserve unitarity and avoid information loss, they argued that the entanglement structure requires the event horizon not to be the smooth and remarkable place predicted by general relativity, the equivalence principle.

这是一个更激烈的场景，是在分析纠缠对霍金辐射保持统一性和避免信息丢失的要求时产生的，他们认为纠缠结构要求事件视界不是广义相对论（即等效原理）所预测的光滑且显着的地方。

Instead, it must be a highly energetic region, a, quote, firewall that incinerates anything attempting to cross it.

相反，它必须是一个高度活跃的区域，就像一个防火墙，可以烧毁任何试图穿过它的东西。

Okay.

好的。

So that’s a nice solution.

所以这是一个很好的解决方案。

Just destroy everything that crosses the…

只要摧毁所有穿过的东西......

Do you find this at all a convincing resolution to the information?

您认为这是对信息的令人信服的解决方案吗？

I would say the firewall papers were fascinating and were very provocative and very important in making progress.

我想说，防火墙论文非常有趣，非常具有挑衅性，对于取得进展非常重要。

1:28:39 I don’t even think the authors of those papers thought firewalls were real.

我什至不认为这些论文的作者认为防火墙是真实的。

I think they were saying, “Look, we’ve been brushing too much under the rug, and if you look at the evaporation process, it’s even worse than what you thought previously.

我想他们是在说：“看，我们隐藏得太多了，如果你看看蒸发过程，你会发现它比你之前想象的还要糟糕。

It’s so bad that I can’t get away with some of these prior solutions that I thought I could get away with.” There was a duality idea or a complementarity idea that, oh, well, maybe one person thinks they fell in, one person thinks they never fell in, and that’s okay, no big deal.

糟糕的是，我无法摆脱一些我认为可以摆脱困境的先前解决方案。”有一种二元性想法或一种互补性想法，哦，好吧，也许一个人认为他们陷入了困境，一个人认为他们从未陷入困境，这没关系，没什么大不了的。

They exposed flaws in these kind of approaches, and it actually reinvigorated the campaign to find a solution.

他们暴露了此类方法的缺陷，实际上重振了寻找解决方案的运动。

So it stopped it from stalling.

所以它阻止了它停滞不前。

I don’t think anyone really believes that at the event horizon you’ll find a firewall.

我认为没有人真正相信在事件视界你会发现防火墙。

But it did lead to things like the entangled wormholes embroidering a black hole, which was born out of an attempt to address the concerns that AMPS raised.

但它确实导致了像纠缠虫洞绣出黑洞这样的事情，这是为了解决 AMPS 提出的担忧而诞生的。

So it did lead to progress.

所以它确实带来了进步。

So for you the resolution would-

所以对你来说，决议将-

I’m going back to the vacuum.

我要回到真空状态。

1:29:52 The empty space, the beautiful event horizon I’ll give up locality, meaning that I will allow things to be connected non-locally by a wormhole.

空旷的空间，美丽的事件视界，我将放弃局部性，这意味着我将允许事物通过虫洞进行非局部连接。

So that is the weirdest thing you’re willing to allow for, which is arbitrary distance connection of particles through a wormhole, but quantum mechanics must be preserved?

所以这是你愿意允许的最奇怪的事情，即粒子通过虫洞进行任意距离的连接，但必须保留量子力学？

I’ll entertain pretty weird things, but I think that’s the one that sounds promising.

我会考虑一些很奇怪的事情，但我认为这听起来很有希望。

1:30:19 The implications are so dramatic because this is why you start to hear things like, “Wait a minute, if the event horizon only exists when it’s sewn out of these quantum threads, does that mean that gravity is fundamentally quantum mechanics?” Not that gravity and quantum mechanics get along, and I have a quantum gravity theory and I now know how to quantize gravity.

其含义是如此戏剧性，因为这就是为什么你开始听到这样的话：“等一下，如果事件视界仅在由这些量子线缝制而成时才存在，这是否意味着引力从根本上来说是量子力学？”并不是说引力和量子力学相处得很好，而且我有量子引力理论，现在我知道如何量子化引力。

Actually, something much more dramatic.

事实上，还有更戏剧性的事情。

Gravity is just emerging from this quantum description.

引力刚刚从这种量子描述中浮现出来。

That gravity isn’t fundamental.

这种重力并不是根本性的。

And what is the only thing that we have when we go rock bottom, when we go deeper and deeper, smaller and smaller is quantum mechanics.

当我们跌入谷底、越陷越深、越来越小时，我们唯一拥有的就是量子力学。

So all of this, space-time looks nice and smooth and continuous, but if I look at the quantum realm I’ll see everything sewn together out of quantum threads.

所以所有这一切，时空看起来都很好、光滑和连续，但如果我看量子领域，我会看到一切都是用量子线缝合在一起的。

And that space-time is not a smooth continuum all the way down.

而且那个时空并不是一路向下都是平滑的连续体。

Now, people already thought that, but they thought it came in chunks of space-time.

现在，人们已经这么认为了，但他们认为它来自时空碎片。

Instead, maybe it’s just quantum mechanics all the way down.

相反，也许这只是量子力学的全部内容。

Quantum threads, so these entangled particles connected by wormholes.

量子线，所以这些纠缠的粒子通过虫洞连接起来。

1:31:25 So how would you even visualize a black hole in that way?

那么你如何以这种方式想象黑洞呢？

From our perspective in terms of detecting things, the light goes going in, it’s all still the same, but when you zoom in a lot-

从我们检测事物的角度来看，光进去了，一切仍然是一样的，但是当你放大很多时——

When you zoom in a lot to the quantum mechanical scale at which you’re seeing the Hawking radiation, you would be noticing that there’s some entanglement between the radiation that I could not explain before, and the interior of the black hole.

当你放大到看到霍金辐射的量子力学尺度时，你会注意到我之前无法解释的辐射和黑洞内部之间存在一些纠缠。

1:31:48 So it’s now no longer a perfectly thermal spectrum with no features that only depends on the mass.

所以它现在不再是一个完美的热谱，没有任何特征，只取决于质量。

It actually has a way to have an imprint of the information interior to the black hole in the particles that escape.

它实际上有一种方法可以将黑洞内部的信息印记在逃逸的粒子中。

And so now, in principle, I could sit there for a very long time, it might take longer than the age of the universe, and collect all the Hawking radiation and see that it actually had details in it that are going to explain to me what was interior to the black hole, so the information is no longer lost.

所以现在，原则上，我可以坐在那里很长一段时间，这可能需要比宇宙年龄还要长的时间，收集所有霍金辐射，看看它实际上有细节，这些细节将向我解释黑洞内部是什么，所以信息不再丢失。

Yeah, so information is not being destroyed, so in theory you should be able to get information.

是的，所以信息没有被破坏，所以理论上你应该能够获取信息。

Now I can’t do that any more than I can recover the words on that piece of paper once it’s been burnt.

现在我无法做到这一点，就像我无法恢复那张被烧毁的纸上的文字一样。

1:32:42 But that’s a practical limitation, not a fundamental one.

但这是一个实际限制，而不是根本限制。

It’s just too hard.

太难了。

But when I burn a piece of paper, technically the information is all there somewhere.

但当我烧一张纸时，从技术上讲，信息就在某个地方。

It’s in the smoke, it’s in the currents, it’s in the molecules, it’s in the ink molecules.

它在烟雾中，在电流中，在分子中，在墨水分子中。

But in principle, if I had…

但原则上，如果我有……

1:33:01 But in principle, if I had took the age of the universe, I could probably reconstruct.

但原则上，如果我计算了宇宙的年龄，我可能可以重建。

I should be able to, in principle, reconstruct the piece of paper and all the words on it.

原则上我应该能够重建这张纸和上面的所有文字。

Do you think a theory of everything that unifies general relativity quantum mechanics is possible?

您认为统一广义相对论和量子力学的万有理论是否可能？

1:33:12 We’re skirting around it?

我们正在回避它吗？

Yeah, we’re skirting around it.

是的，我们正在回避它。

1:33:20 I think that this is the way to find that out.

我认为这是找出答案的方法。

It’s going to be on the train of black holes, that we figure out if that’s possible.

它将在黑洞的列车上，我们将弄清楚这是否可能。

I think that this is suggesting that there might not be a theory of quantum gravity, that gravity will emerge at a macroscopic level, out of quantum phenomena.

我认为这表明可能不存在量子引力理论，引力将在宏观层面上从量子现象中出现。

Now, we don’t know how to do that yet, but these are all hints.

现在，我们还不知道如何做到这一点，但这些都是提示。

Emerge.

出现。

1:33:44 So a lot of the mathematics of anything that emerges from complex systems is very difficult.

因此，复杂系统中出现的任何事物的许多数学计算都非常困难。

The transition’s very difficult.

转变非常困难。

So if that’s the case, that might not be a simple clean equation that connects everything.

因此，如果是这样的话，那可能不是一个连接一切的简单干净的方程式。

There are examples of emergent phenomena which are very simple and clean.

有一些紧急现象的例子非常简单明了。

1:33:59 I can just take electromagnetic scattering, which is law of physics where particles scatter just by electromagnetically, and I have a lot of them and I have a lot of them in this room, and they come to some average.

我可以采用电磁散射，这是物理定律，粒子仅通过电磁方式散射，我有很多这样的粒子，我在这个房间里也有很多这样的粒子，它们达到了一定的平均值。

Well, I call that temperature.

嗯，我称之为温度。

And that one number, the fact that there’s one number describing all of these gazillions of particles, is an emergent quantity.

这个数字，即用一个数字描述所有这些无数粒子的事实，是一个涌现量。

There’s no particle that carries around this fundamental property called temperature.

没有任何粒子具有温度这个基本属性。

It emerges from the collective behavior of tons and tons of particles.

它是由无数粒子的集体行为产生的。

1:34:34 In some sense, temperature is not a fundamental quantity, it’s not a fundamental law of nature.

从某种意义上说，温度不是一个基本量，也不是一个基本的自然法则。

It’s just what happens from the collective behavior and that’s what we’d be saying.

这就是集体行为所发生的事情，这就是我们要说的。

We’d be saying, “Oh, this emerges from the collective behavior of lots and lots and lots of quantum interactions.”

我们会说，“哦，这是由大量量子相互作用的集体行为产生的。”

So when do you think we would have some breakthroughs on the path towards theory of everything, showing that it’s impossible or impossible, all that kind of stuff.

那么你认为我们什么时候会在万有理论的道路上取得一些突破，表明这是不可能的或不可能的，诸如此类的事情。

1:34:56 If you look at the 21st century, say you move a hundred years into the future and looking back, when do you think the breakthroughs will come?

如果你放眼 21 世纪，比如说一百年以后，回顾过去，你认为突破会在什么时候到来？

1:35:15 So I’ll give you some hard problems.

所以我会给你一些难题。

I guess my question is how hard is this problem?

我想我的问题是这个问题有多难？

What does your gut say?

你的直觉怎么说？

Because finding the origin of life, figuring out consciousness, solving some of the major diseases.

因为找到了生命的起源，弄清楚了意识，解决了一些重大疾病。

Then there’s the theory of everything, understanding this, resolving the information paradox.

然后是万有理论，理解这一点，解决信息悖论。

1:35:33 So these puzzles that are before us as a human civilization, physics, this feels like really one of the big ones.

因此，作为人类文明，物理学，摆在我们面前的这些难题，感觉确实是最大的难题之一。

Of course, there could be other breakthroughs in physics that don’t solve this.

当然，物理学上可能还有其他突破无法解决这个问题。

Yeah, we could discover dark matter; dark energy.

是的，我们可以发现暗物质；暗能量。

1:35:48 We could discover extra spatial dimensions.

我们可以发现额外的空间维度。

We could discover that those three things are linked, that there’s a dark sector to the universe that’s hiding in these extra dimensions and that’s something that I love to work on.

我们可以发现这三件事是相互联系的，宇宙中有一个黑暗区域隐藏在这些额外的维度中，这是我喜欢研究的事情。

I think is really fascinating.

我认为这真的很令人着迷。

All of those would also be clues about this question, but they wouldn’t solve this problem.

所有这些也都是这个问题的线索，但它们并不能解决这个问题。

1:36:12 I think it’s impossible to predict.

我认为这是不可能预测的。

There has been real progress and the progress, as we’ve said, comes from the childlike curiosity of saying, “Well, I don’t actually understand this.

我们已经取得了真正的进步，而正如我们所说，进步来自于孩子般的好奇心：“嗯，我实际上并不明白这一点。

I’m going to keep leaning on it because I don’t understand it.” And then suddenly you realize nobody really understood it.

我将继续依赖它，因为我不明白它。”然后你突然意识到没有人真正理解它。

1:36:29 So I don’t know.

所以我不知道。

Do I think it’s a harder problem than the problem of the origin of life?

我认为这是比生命起源问题更难的问题吗？

I think it’s technically a harder problem, but I don’t know.

我认为这在技术上是一个更难的问题，但我不知道。

Maybe the breakthrough will come.

也许突破将会到来。

So when you mentioned discovering extra dimensions, what do you mean?

那么当你提到发现额外维度时，你的意思是什么？

1:36:41 What could that possibly mean?

这可能意味着什么？

Well, we know that there are three spatial dimensions.

嗯，我们知道存在三个空间维度。

1:36:52 We like to talk about time as a dimension.

我们喜欢将时间作为一个维度来讨论。

We can argue about whether that’s the right thing to do, but we don’t know why there are only three.

我们可以争论这是否是正确的做法，但我们不知道为什么只有三个。

It very well could be that there are extra spatial dimensions, that there’s like a little origami of these tightly rolled up dimensions.

很可能存在额外的空间维度，就像这些紧密卷起的维度的小折纸一样。

Not all the models require that they’re small, but most do.

并非所有模型都要求它们很小，但大多数都这样做。

1:37:17 String theory requires extra dimensions to make sense.

弦理论需要额外的维度才能有意义。

But even if you feel very hostile towards string theory, there are lots of reasons to consider the viability of extra dimensions and we think that they can trap little quantum energies, in such a way that might align with the dark energy.

但即使你对弦理论非常敌视，也有很多理由考虑额外维度的可行性，我们认为它们可以捕获很少的量子能量，从而可能与暗能量保持一致。

The numerology is not perfect.

命理学并不完美。

It’s a little bit subtle.

这有点微妙。

It’s hard to stabilize them.

很难让他们稳定下来。

It’s possible that there are these kind of quantum excitations that look a lot like dark matter.

有可能存在这种看起来很像暗物质的量子激发。

1:37:55 It’s kind of an interesting idea that in the Big Bang, the universe was born with lots of these dimensions.

这是一个有趣的想法，在大爆炸中，宇宙诞生时就具有许多这样的维度。

They were all kind of wrapped up in the early universe and what we’re really trying to understand is, why did three get so big?

它们都被包裹在早期宇宙中，我们真正想要理解的是，为什么三个会变得这么大？

And why did the others stay so small?

为什么其他人保持这么小？

Is it possible to have some kind of natural selection of dimensions, kind of situation?

是否可能存在某种维度的自然选择、某种情况？

Yeah, there is, actually, and people have worked on that.

是的，实际上是有的，人们已经在这方面做出了努力。

1:38:14 Is there a reason why it’s easier to unravel three?

有什么理由可以解释为什么更容易解开三个问题吗？

Some people think about strings and brains wrapping up in the extra dimensions causing a kind of constriction but preferentially loosening up in three.

有些人认为，缠绕在额外维度中的绳子和大脑会造成某种收缩，但会优先以三个维度松弛。

1:38:36 Sometimes we look at exactly models like that which have to do with the origami being resistant to change in a certain way that only allows three to unravel and keeps the others really taught.

有时我们会看到类似的模型，这些模型与折纸以某种方式抵抗变化有关，这种方式只允许三个人解开并让其他人真正得到教导。

But then there are other ideas that we’re actually living on a three-dimensional membrane that moves through these higher dimensions.

但也有其他观点认为，我们实际上生活在一个在这些更高维度中移动的三维膜上。

1:38:57 And so the reason we don’t notice them isn’t they’re small.

所以我们没有注意到它们的原因并不是它们很小。

Maybe they’re not small at all, but it’s because we’re stuck to this membrane.

也许它们根本不小，但那是因为我们被粘在了这层膜上。

So we’re unaware of these extra directions.

所以我们不知道这些额外的指示。

Is it possible that there’s other intelligent alien civilizations out there that are operating on a different membrane?

是否有可能存在其他智慧外星文明在不同的膜上运行？

1:39:06 Is this a bit of an out there question, but I ask it more kind of seriously.

这是一个有点遥远的问题，但我更认真地问它。

Is it possible, do you think from a physics perspective, to exist on a slice of what the universe is capable of?

从物理学的角度来看，是否有可能存在于宇宙能力的一部分上？

I think it is certainly mathematically possible on paper to imagine a higher dimensional universe with more than one membrane.

我认为在纸面上想象一个具有多个膜的高维宇宙在数学上当然是可能的。

1:39:29 And if things are mathematically possible, I often wonder if nature will try it out.

如果事情在数学上是可能的，我经常想知道大自然是否会尝试一下。

1:39:48 Just how people get into the strange territory of talking about a multiverse.

人们是如何进入谈论多元宇宙的奇怪领域的。

Because if you start to say one of the aspirations was in the same way that we identified the law of electroweak theory of matter, that it was a single description and exactly landed on the description that matched observations, people were hoping the same thing would happen for a kind of theory that also incorporated gravity.

因为如果你开始说其中一个愿望与我们确定物质电弱理论定律的方式相同，即它是一个单一的描述并且完全落在与观测结果相匹配的描述上，那么人们希望同样的事情会发生在一种也包含引力的理论中。

There would be this one beautiful law, but instead they got a proliferation, all of which did okay, or did equally badly.

本来会有这样一项美丽的法律，但它们却得到了扩散，所有这些都做得很好，或者做得同样糟糕。

They suddenly had trouble finding, not only finding a single one, but that would just beg a new question, which is, “Well why that one?” And if nature can do something, won’t she do anything she can try?

他们突然很难找到，不仅找不到一个，而且只会引出一个新问题，即“为什么是那个？”如果大自然能做点什么，她难道不会做任何她能尝试的事情吗？

1:40:39 And so maybe we really are just one example, in an infinite sea of possible universes, with slightly different laws of physics.

因此，也许我们确实只是无限可能宇宙海洋中的一个例子，其物理定律略有不同。

So if I can do some of these things on paper, like imagine a higher dimensional space in which I’m confined to a brain and there’s another brain, or maybe a whole array of them, maybe nature’s tried that out somewhere.

因此，如果我可以在纸上做一些事情，比如想象一个更高维度的空间，其中我被限制在一个大脑中，并且还有另一个大脑，或者可能是一整套大脑，也许大自然已经在某个地方尝试过这一点。

Maybe that’s been tried out here.

也许这已经在这里尝试过了。

And then yes, is it possible that there’s life and civilizations on those other brains?

那么，是的，其他大脑上是否有可能存在生命和文明？

Yeah, but we can’t communicate with them.

是的，但我们无法与他们沟通。

They’d be like in a shadow space.

他们就像在一个影子空间里。

Can you seriously say we can’t communicate with them?

你能认真地说我们无法与他们沟通吗？

No, that’s fair.

不，这很公平。

1:41:17 I’m limited in my communication because I’m glued to the brain but some things can move.

我的沟通受到限制，因为我被大脑粘住了，但有些东西是可以移动的。

We call the bulk; through the bulk.

我们称之为散装；通过散装。

Gravity, for instance, a gravitational wave.

重力，例如引力波。

So I could design a gravitational communicator, communication system.

所以我可以设计一个引力通讯器，通讯系统。

And I could send gravitational waves through the bulk and how SETI is doing with light into space, I could send signals into the bulk, telling them where we are and what we do, and singing songs.

我可以向物体发送引力波，了解 SETI 如何利用光进入太空，我可以向物体发送信号，告诉他们我们在哪里、我们在做什么，并唱歌。

Sending gravitational waves is very expensive.

发送引力波非常昂贵。

1:41:47 We don’t know how to read.

我们不知道如何阅读。

Very expensive.

非常贵。

1:41:50 Very hard to localize.

很难本地化。

They tend to be long wave length and very hard to do.

它们的波长往往很长，而且很难做到。

A lot of energy moving around.

大量的能量在流动。

A lot of energy.

很多能量。

So is it possible that the membranes are “hairy” in other ways?

那么膜是否有可能以其他方式“毛茸茸”呢？

1:41:58 Some kind of weird quantum thing?

某种奇怪的量子东西？

It’s possible that there’s other things that live in the bulk.

可能还有其他东西存在于其中。

1:42:05 I mean last night it was calculating away, looking at something that lives in the bulk.

我的意思是昨晚它正在计算，着眼于存在于本体中的东西。

Okay.

好的。

1:42:15 This is fascinating.

这很有趣。

So I mean, okay, can we take a little bit more seriously about the whole.

所以我的意思是，好吧，我们可以更认真地对待整体吗？

When I look out there at the stars, I, from a basic intuition, cannot possibly imagine there’s not just alien civilizations everywhere.

当我仰望星空时，从基本的直觉来看，我无法想象到处都有外星文明。

Life is so damn good.

生活真是太好了。

Like you said, nature tries stuff out.

就像你说的，大自然会尝试一些东西。

Yeah.

是的。

1:42:37 Nature’s an experimenter.

大自然是一位实验者。

And just can’t, just basic observation life.

只是不能，只是基本的观察生活。

1:42:39 You said somewhere that you like extremophiles.

你在某个地方说过你喜欢极端微生物。

Life just figures shit out.

生活简直就是一团糟。

It just finds a way to survive.

它只是找到了生存之道。

1:42:56 Now there could be something magical about the origin of life, the first spark, but I can’t even see that.

现在，生命的起源可能有一些神奇的东西，第一个火花，但我什至看不到。

It’s just over and over and over.

这只是一遍又一遍。

I bet actually, once the story is fully told and figured out, life originated on earth almost right away and did so billions of times, in multiple places, just over and over and over and over.

事实上，我敢打赌，一旦这个故事被完整地讲述和弄清楚，生命几乎立即在地球上起源，并且在多个地方重复了数十亿次，一遍又一遍，一遍又一遍。

That seems to be the thing that just, whatever is the life force behind this whole thing, seems to create life, seems to be a creator of different sorts.

这似乎就是这样的东西，无论这整个事物背后的生命力是什么，它似乎创造了生命，似乎是不同种类的创造者。

From the very original primordial soup of things, it just creates stuff.

从事物最原始的汤中，它只是创造出东西。

So I just can’t imagine.

所以我无法想象。

But we don’t see the aliens, so.

但我们没有看到外星人，所以。

Right.

正确的。

1:43:40 Yeah.

是的。

We don’t even have to go to something as crazy as extra dimensions and brain worlds and all of that.

我们甚至不必去像额外维度和大脑世界之类的疯狂的地方。

What’s happening right now, in the past 30 years in astronomy, looking at real objects, is that the number of planets, exoplanets outside our solar system, has absolutely proliferated.

现在，在过去 30 年的天文学中，观察真实的物体，我们太阳系之外的行星、系外行星的数量绝对在激增。

1:43:57 There are probably more planets in the Milky Way galaxy than there are stars.

银河系中的行星数量可能比恒星还要多。

And now we have a real quandary.

现在我们面临着真正的困境。

I don’t think it’s quandary.

我不认为这是一个困境。

I think it’s really exciting.

我认为这真的很令人兴奋。

It becomes impossible.

这变得不可能了。

What you just said, I totally agree with.

你刚才说的，我完全同意。

It becomes impossible to imagine that life was not sparked somewhere else, in our Milky Way galaxy, and maybe even in our local neighborhood of the Milky Way galaxy, maybe within a few hundred light years of our solar system.

很难想象生命不是在其他地方被激发出来的，在我们的银河系中，甚至可能在我们银河系的附近地区，也许在距我们太阳系几百光年的范围内。

So my gut says like some crazy amount of solar systems have life, bacterial life.

所以我的直觉告诉我，太阳系中有大量的生命，细菌的生命。

1:44:24 Somewhere, at some point in their history, had some bacterial type of life.

在它们历史的某个时刻，某个地方存在着某种细菌类型的生命。

Something like bacterial, maybe it’s totally different kinds of life.

像细菌之类的东西，也许是完全不同的生命种类。

1:44:44 So then I’m just facing with a question.

那么我就面临一个问题。

It’s like, why have we not clearly seen alien civilizations?

就像，为什么我们没有清楚地看到外星文明？

And there, the answer, I don’t find any great filter answer convincing.

答案是，我没有发现任何令人信服的过滤器答案。

There’s just no way I can imagine an advanced alien civilization not avoiding its own destruction.

我无法想象一个先进的外星文明不会避免自身的毁灭。

I could see a lot of them get into trouble.

我可以看到他们中的很多人陷入了麻烦。

I could see how we humans are really like 50/50 here.

我可以看出我们人类真的是 50/50 的比例。

Well, isn’t that kind of appalling?

嗯，这不是很可怕吗？

1:45:11 I mean, just take that statement.

我的意思是，就拿那句话来说吧。

We’ve only been around for a couple hundred thousand years, tops.

我们只存在了几十万年，最重要的是。

That is not very long and we’re at a 50/50.

这并不是很长，而且我们的比分是 50/50。

I mean, that’s unbelievable.

我的意思是，这令人难以置信。

I mean, it’s indisputable that we have created the means, at least potentially, for our own destruction.

我的意思是，毫无疑问，我们已经创造了自我毁灭的手段，至少是潜在的。

1:45:33 Will we learn from our mistakes?

我们会从错误中吸取教训吗？

Will we avert course and save ourselves?

我们会改变路线并拯救自己吗？

One hopes so.

人们希望如此。

Right?

正确的？

But even the concept that it’s conceivable.

但即使是这个概念也是可以想象的。

Whales have not invented a way to kill themselves; to wipe out all whales and earth and life on earth.

鲸鱼还没有发明自杀的方法；消灭所有鲸鱼、地球和地球上的生命。

That’s one way to see it.

这是看待它的一种方式。

1:45:51 But I actually see it as a feature, not a bug.

但我实际上将其视为一个功能，而不是一个错误。

When you look at the entirety of the universe, because it does seem that the mechanism of evolution constantly creates.

当你观察整个宇宙时，因为进化机制似乎确实在不断创造。

You want to operate on the verge of destruction, it seems like.

看起来你想在毁灭的边缘进行操作。

I mean the predator and prey dynamic is really effective at accelerating evolution and development.

我的意思是捕食者和猎物的动态对于加速进化和发展确实有效。

It seems like us being able to destroy ourselves is a really powerful way to give us a chance to really get our shit together and to flourish, to develop, to innovate, to go out amongst the stars, or 50/50 destroy ourselves, which I think me as a human is a horrible thing.

似乎我们能够毁灭自己是一种非常强大的方式，让我们有机会真正团结起来，蓬勃发展，发展，创新，走出星空，或者50/50毁灭我们自己，我认为我作为一个人是一件可怕的事情。

But if there’s a lot of other alien civilizations, that’s a pretty cool thing.

但如果还有很多其他外星文明，那是一件很酷的事情。

You want to give everybody nuclear weapons.

你想给每个人核武器。

Half of them will figure it out, half of them won’t.

一半人会明白，一半人不会。

The ones that figure it out-

那些想出办法的人——

You mean everyone?

你是说所有人？

1:46:45 All these civilizations.

所有这些文明。

All these civilizations.

所有这些文明。

1:46:46 And then the ones that figure it out, will figure out some incredible technologies about how to expand, how to develop, and all that kind of stuff.

然后那些弄清楚这一点的人将会找出一些令人难以置信的技术，关于如何扩展、如何开发以及所有类似的东西。

Right.

正确的。

1:46:54 You could use a kind of evolutionary Darwinian natural selection on that where survival isn’t just in a harsh, naturally induced climate change, but it’s because of a nuclear holocaust.

你可以用一种进化达尔文自然选择来解释，生存不仅是在严酷的、自然引起的气候变化中，而且是因为核浩劫。

And then something will be created that is now impervious to that, that now knows how to survive.

然后将会创造出一些现在不受其影响、现在知道如何生存的东西。

Exactly.

确切地。

1:47:14 So why haven’t we seen them?

那么为什么我们没有看到他们呢？

Right?

正确的？

1:47:16 Well, because that’s a pretty big bar.

嗯，因为那是一个相当大的酒吧。

So if you look at, just to say for comparison, dinosaurs; 250 million years.

所以如果你看一下，只是为了比较，恐龙； 2.5亿年。

I mean maybe not very bright.

我的意思是可能不是很亮。

Didn’t invent fire.

没有发明火。

Didn’t write sonnets.

没有写十四行诗。

They didn’t contemplate the origin of the universe, but they lived.

他们没有思考宇宙的起源，但他们活着。

And in a benign situation without confronting their own demise, at their own hands; paws, hooves.

并且处于一种良性的情况下，而无需面对自己的死亡，在他们自己的手中；爪子，蹄子。

So it’s just a sheer numbers game.

所以这只是一个纯粹的数字游戏。

That’s a long time, 250 million years.

那是一段很长的时间，2.5亿年。

1:47:53 I do think though that life can flourish without wanting to manipulate its environment and that we do see many examples of species on earth that are very long-lived, very, very long-lived, and have very different states of consciousness.

我确实认为，生命可以在不需要操纵其环境的情况下繁衍生息，而且我们确实看到地球上有许多物种的例子，它们非常长寿，非常非常长寿，并且具有非常不同的意识状态。

They have, the jellyfish does not even have a localized brain.

他们有，水母甚至没有局部大脑。

I don’t think they have a heart or blood.

我不认为他们有心或血。

I mean they’re really different from us.

我的意思是他们和我们真的不一样。

And that’s what I think we have to start thinking about when we think about aliens.

我认为，当我们想到外星人时，我们必须开始思考这一点。

Those species have lived for a very, very long time.

这些物种已经生存了非常非常长的时间。

They even show some evidence of immortality.

他们甚至表现出了一些永生的证据。

You can wound one badly, and there are certain jellyfish that will go back into a kind of pre-state and start over.

你可能会严重伤害水母，并且某些水母会回到某种预状态并重新开始。

1:48:39 So I think we’re very attached to imagining creatures like us, that manipulate technology, and I think we have to be way more imaginative if we’re going to really take seriously life in the universe.

所以我认为我们非常喜欢像我们这样操纵技术的想象生物，而且我认为如果我们要真正认真对待宇宙中的生命，我们就必须更加富有想象力。

They might not prioritize conquest and expansion.

他们可能不会优先考虑征服和扩张。

1:48:54 They might not be violent.

他们可能并不暴力。

They might not be violent.

他们可能并不暴力。

Like us humans.

就像我们人类一样。

They might be solitary.

他们可能是孤独的。

1:49:04 They might not be social.

他们可能不善于社交。

They might not move in groups.

他们可能不会成群结队地移动。

They might not want to leave records.

他们可能不想留下记录。

They might again, not have a localized brain, or have a completely different kind of nervous system.

他们可能又没有局部大脑，或者有完全不同的神经系统。

1:49:17 I think all we can say about life, is it has something to do with moving electrons around.

我认为关于生命我们所能说的就是它与电子的移动有关。

And neurologically we move electrons through our nervous system.

从神经学角度来说，我们通过神经系统移动电子。

Our brain has electrical configurations.

我们的大脑有电气配置。

We metabolize food and that has to do with getting energy, electrical energy in some sense out of what we’re eating.

我们代谢食物，这与从我们所吃的食物中获取能量有关，在某种意义上是电能。

We have organisms on the earth that can eat rocks.

地球上有可以吃岩石的生物。

It’s quite amazing; minerals.

这真是太神奇了；矿物质。

1:49:45 I mean talk about extremophiles.

我的意思是谈论极端微生物。

They can metabolize things that I would’ve thought were impossible to metabolize.

它们可以代谢我认为不可能代谢的东西。

And so again, I think we have to kind of open our minds to how strange that could be and how different from us.

再说一次，我认为我们必须开放我们的思想，认识到这可能是多么奇怪以及与我们有多么不同。

And we are the only example, even here on earth, that does manipulate its environment in that extreme way.

即使在地球上，我们也是唯一以这种极端方式操纵环境的例子。

I mean, can you think of life as, because you said electrons.

我的意思是，你能把生命想象成，因为你说的是​​电子。

1:50:09 Is there some degree of information processing required?

是否需要某种程度的信息处理？

So it does something interesting “with information.”

所以它“利用信息”做了一些有趣的事情。

I think there are arguments like that, how entropy is changing from the beginning of the universe to today.

我认为存在这样的争论，即从宇宙诞生到今天，熵是如何变化的。

1:50:24 How life lowers entropy by organizing things, but it costs more as a whole system, so the whole entropy of the whole system goes up.

生命如何通过组织事物来降低熵，但作为整个系统，它的成本更高，因此整个系统的整体熵上升。

But of course, I organized things today and reduced the entropy of certain things in order to get up and get here.

当然，我今天整理了一些事情，并减少了某些事情的熵，以便站起来到达这里。

And even having this conversation, organizing thoughts out of the cloud of information, but it comes at the cost of the entire system increasing entropy.

即使进行这样的对话，从信息云中组织思想，但这也是以整个系统的熵增加为代价的。

So I do think there’s probably a very interesting way to talk about life in this way.

所以我确实认为以这种方式谈论生活可能是一种非常有趣的方式。

I’m sure somebody has.

我确信有人有。

Yeah, it creates local pockets of low entropy and then the kind of mechanism, the kind of object, the kind of life form that could do that probably can take arbitrary forms.

是的，它创造了局部的低熵区域，然后那种机制、那种物体、那种生命形式可以做到这一点，可能可以采取任意形式。

1:51:19 Now, if you could reduce it all to information now you could start to think about physics and then the realm of physics with the multiverse and all this kind of stuff, you could start to think about, okay, how do I detect those pockets of low entropy?

现在，如果你现在可以将其全部简化为信息，你可以开始思考物理，然后考虑多元宇宙和所有此类东西的物理领域，你可以开始思考，好吧，我如何检测那些低熵的区域？

Yeah.

是的。

1:51:35 I mean people have tried to make arguments like that.

我的意思是人们试图提出这样的论点。

Can I look for entropic arguments that might suggest we’ve done this before?

我可以寻找可能表明我们以前做过这件事的熵参数吗？

The Big Bang has happened before.

大爆炸以前发生过。

So is it possible that there’s some kind of physics explanation why we haven’t seen the aliens?

那么是否有可能存在某种物理学解释为什么我们没有看到外星人呢？

1:51:51 Like we said, membranes?

就像我们说的，膜？

I don’t think membranes is going to explain why we don’t see them in the Milky Way.

我不认为膜能够解释为什么我们在银河系中看不到它们。

1:51:57 I think that is just a problem we’re stuck with.

我认为这只是我们所面临的一个问题。

Whether or not there are extra dimensions, or whether or not there’s life in another membrane, I think we know that even just in our galaxy, which is a very small part of the universe, 300 billion stars, something like that, a whole kind of variety of possibilities to be explored, by nature in the same way that we’re describing it.

无论是否存在额外维度，或者另一层膜中是否存在生命，我想我们都知道，即​​使只是在我们的银河系（宇宙的一小部分）中，也有 3000 亿颗恒星，类似的东西，有各种各样的可能性可供探索，本质上就像我们所描述的那样。

1:52:24 And I think you’re absolutely right.

我认为你是完全正确的。

When life was kicked off, first sparked here on earth, it was voracious.

当生命在地球上开始、第一次点燃时，它是贪婪的。

It took a really long time though to get to multicellularity.

不过，我们花了很长时间才达到多细胞状态。

I think that’s interesting.

我认为这很有趣。

That’s weird.

这很奇怪。

It’s weird.

这很奇怪。

1:52:37 It took a really, really long time to become multicellular, but it did not take long just to start.

成为多细胞花了非常非常长的时间，但刚开始并没有花很长时间。

Yeah.

是的。

1:52:47 What do you think is the hardest thing on the chain of leaps, that got the humans?

你认为人类的跳跃链上最难的是什么？

I would say, multicellularity which is strictly an energy problem, I think.

我想说，多细胞性严格来说是一个能源问题。

1:52:54 Again, it’s just like can electrons flow the right way.

再说一次，这就像电子能否以正确的方式流动一样。

And is it energetically favorable for multicellularity to exist because if it’s energetically expensive, it’s not going to succeed.

它在能量上是否有利于多细胞生物的存在，因为如果能量昂贵，它就不会成功。

And if it’s energetically favorable, it’s going to take off.

如果它在能量上有利，它就会起飞。

1:53:21 It’s really just, and that’s why I also think that going from inanimate, to animate, is probably gray.

这真的很公平，这就是为什么我也认为从无生命到有生命，可能是灰色的。

Like the transition is gray.

就像过渡是灰色的一样。

At what point we call something fully alive.

在什么时候我们称之为完全活着的东西。

Famously, it’s hard to make a nice list of bullet points that need to be met in order to declare something alive.

众所周知，很难列出一个很好的清单，列出需要满足的要点才能宣布某些东西还活着。

Is a virus alive?

病毒还活着吗？

I mean, I don’t know.

我的意思是，我不知道。

Is a prion alive?

朊病毒还活着吗？

They seem to do some things, but they kind of rely on stealing other DNA and replicating and I don’t know.

他们似乎做了一些事情，但他们有点依赖于窃取其他 DNA 并进行复制，我不知道。

I guess they’re not alive.

我猜他们已经不在人世了。

But I mean the point is that it really, at the end of the day, I really think it’s just you asked if it’s just physics.

但我的意思是，归根结底，我真的认为这只是你问的问题，这是否只是物理学。

I mean I think it’s just these rules of energetics.

我的意思是，我认为这就是这些能量学规则。

And the gray area between the non-living and the living, is way simpler just on earth.

无生命体与生命体之间的灰色地带，在地球上要简单得多。

1:54:08 And you said it’s already complicated on earth, but it’s probably even more complicated elsewhere, where the chemistry could be anything.

你说这在地球上已经很复杂了，但在其他地方可能更复杂，那里的化学反应可能是任何东西。

Carbon is really cool and really useful because it finds a lot.

Carbon 真的很酷而且很有用，因为它能发现很多东西。

1:54:19 It’s nice.

很好。

It finds a lot of ways to combine with other things and that’s complexity and complexity is the kind of thing you need for life.

它找到了很多与其他事物结合的方法，这就是复杂性，而复杂性正是你生活所需要的东西。

You can’t have a very simple linear chain and expect to get life.

你不可能拥有一个非常简单的线性链条并期望获得生命。

But I don’t know, maybe sulfur would do.

但我不知道，也许硫磺可以。

As we get progressively towards crazier and crazier ideas.

随着我们逐渐获得越来越疯狂的想法。

1:54:39 So we talked about these microscopic wormholes.

所以我们讨论了这些微观虫洞。

My mind is still blown away by that.

我的心至今仍为之震惊。

But if we talk a little bit more seriously about wormholes in general, also called the Einstein-Rosen Bridges, to what degree do you think they’re actually possible, as a thing to study, creeping towards the possibility maybe centuries from now of engineering ways of using them, of creating wormholes and using them for transportation of human-like organisms?

但是，如果我们更严肃地谈论一般的虫洞，也称为爱因斯坦-罗森桥，你认为它们在多大程度上实际上是可能的，作为一个值得研究的东西，从现在开始可能在几个世纪后逐渐实现使用它们的工程方法，创造虫洞并利用它们来运输类人生物体？

I think wormholes are a perfectly valid construction to consider.

我认为虫洞是一个值得考虑的完全有效的结构。

1:55:18 They’re just a curve in space-time.

它们只是时空的一条曲线。

The topologically, which has to do with the connectedness of the space, is a little tricky because we know that Einstein’s description is completely in terms of local curves and distortions, expansion/contraction.

与空间连通性有关的拓扑有点棘手，因为我们知道爱因斯坦的描述完全是局部曲线和扭曲、膨胀/收缩。

But it doesn’t say anything about the global connectedness of the space because he knew that it could be globally connected on the largest scales.

但它并没有说明该空间的全球连通性，因为他知道它可以在最大范围内实现全球连通。

This kind of origami that we’re talking about, that you could travel in a straight line through the universe, leave our galaxy behind, watch the Virgo cluster drift behind us, and travel in a straight line as possible and find ourselves coming back again to the Virgo cluster and eventually the Milky Way and eventually the earth, that we could find ourselves on a connected compact space-time.

我们谈论的这种折纸，你可以在宇宙中直线旅行，把我们的银河系抛在身后，看着处女座星团在我们身后漂移，并尽可能沿直线旅行，然后发现自己再次回到处女座星团，最终回到银河系，最终回到地球，我们可以发现自己处于一个相连的紧凑时空中。

1:56:08 And so topologically, there’s something we know for sure, something beyond Einstein’s theory that has to explain that to us.

因此，从拓扑学角度来说，有一些我们确实知道的东西，一些超越爱因斯坦理论的东西必须向我们解释。

Now, wormholes are a little funky.

现在，虫洞有点时髦。

They’re topological.

它们是拓扑结构的。

They create these handles and holes in these sneaky, by topological I mean these connected spaces.

他们在这些偷偷摸摸的地方创造了这些把手和孔，我所说的拓扑是指这些相连的空间。

Yes, like Swiss cheese or something.

是的，比如瑞士奶酪什么的。

Like Swiss cheese and so I could have two flat sheets that are connected by a wormhole, but then wrap around on the largest scale, all this cool stuff.

就像瑞士奶酪一样，我可以有两个通过虫洞连接的平板，然后以最大的尺寸包裹起来，所有这些很酷的东西。

1:56:32 There’s nothing wrong with it, as far as I can see.

据我所知，这没有什么问题。

There’s nothing abusive towards the laws about a wormhole, but we can reverse engineer.

虫洞定律并没有被滥用，但我们可以进行逆向工程。

1:56:51 We were saying, “Oh look, if I know how matter and energy are distributed, I can predict how space-time is curved.

我们说，“哦，看，如果我知道物质和能量是如何分布的，我就可以预测时空是如何弯曲的。

I can reverse engineer.” I can say, “I want to build a curved space-time like a wormhole.

我可以进行逆向工程。”我可以说，“我想建造一个像虫洞一样弯曲的时空。

What matter and energy do I need to do that?”

我需要什么物质和能量才能做到这一点？”

1:57:04 It’s a simple process and it’s the kind of thing Kip Thorne worked on.

这是一个简单的过程，也是基普·索恩所做的事情。

Very imaginative, creative person.

非常有想象力、有创造力的人。

And the problem was that he said, “Oh, here’s the bummer.

问题是他说：“哦，真是糟糕透了。

The matter and energy you need doesn’t seem to be like anything we’ve ever seen before.

你所需要的物质和能量似乎与我们以前见过的任何东西都不一样。

It has to have negative energy and that’s not great.

它必须有负能量，但这不太好。

There are some conjectures that we shouldn’t allow things that have that kind of a property that have negative energies, only things that have positive energies are going to be stable and long-lived.

有人推测，我们不应该允许具有这种性质的事物具有负能量，只有具有正能量的事物才会稳定且长寿。

But we actually know of quantum examples of negative energy.

但我们实际上知道负能量的量子例子。

It’s not that crazy.

没那么疯狂。

1:57:44 There’s something called the Casimir Effect.

有一种东西叫做卡西米尔效应。

You have two metal plates, and you put them really close together.

你有两块金属板，并将它们非常靠近地放在一起。

You can see this kind of quantum fluctuation between the plates.

你可以看到板块之间的这种量子涨落。

It’s called a Casimir energy and that can have a negative energy.

它被称为卡西米尔能量，可能具有负能量。

It can actually cause the place to attract or repel depending on how they’re configured.

它实际上可以导致该地方吸引或排斥，具体取决于它们的配置方式。

And so you could kind of imagine doing something like that, like having wormholes propped up by these kinds of quantum energies.

所以你可以想象做类似的事情，比如用这些量子能量支撑虫洞。

And people have thought of imaginative configurations to try to keep them propped up.

人们想到了富有想象力的配置来试图支撑它们。

1:58:18 Are we at the point of me saying, “Oh, this is an engineering problem.” I’m not saying that quite yet, but it’s certainly plausible.

我们是否想说，“哦，这是一个工程问题。”我还没有这么说，但这确实是合理的。

So you have to get a lot of this kind of weird matter.

所以这种奇奇怪怪的东西你一定要得到很多。

You need a lot of this weird matter to send a person through.

你需要很多这种奇怪的事情才能让一个人通过。

Right.

对。

That’s going to be really telling.

这真的很能说明问题。

1:58:34 So I’m not saying it’s simply an engineering problem, but it’s all within the realm of plausible physics, I think.

所以我并不是说这只是一个工程问题，但我认为这都在合理的物理学范围内。

I think hat’s super interesting and I think it’s obviously intricately and deeply connected to black holes.

我认为帽子非常有趣，而且我认为它显然与黑洞有着复杂而深刻的联系。

1:58:43 Is it fair to think of wormholes as just two black holes that are connected somehow?

将虫洞视为只是以某种方式连接的两个黑洞是否公平？

People have looked at that.

人们已经看过了。

1:58:54 They tend to be non-traversable wormholes.

它们往往是不可穿越的虫洞。

They’re not trying to prop them open.

他们并不是试图让它们打开。

But yeah, I mean some of this ER equals EPR quantum entanglement, they’re trying to connect black holes.

但是，是的，我的意思是，其中一些 ER 等于 EPR 量子纠缠，他们试图连接黑洞。

It’s really cool.

真的很酷。

It’s not quite, again, it’s not quite following the chalk.

再说一次，这并不完全是这样，它也不完全是按照粉笔的方式进行。

And by that I mean we can’t exactly start at a concrete place, calculate all the way to the end yet.

我的意思是，我们还不能完全从一个具体的地方开始，一直计算到最后。

So if I may read off some of the ideas that Kip Thorne’s had about how to artificially construct wormholes.

因此，我可以读一下基普·索恩关于如何人工建造虫洞的一些想法。

1:59:21 So the first method involves quantum mechanics in the concept of quantum foam.

所以第一种方法涉及到量子力学中的量子泡沫的概念。

And this is the thing we’ve been talking about.

这就是我们一直在谈论的事情。

1:59:33 Now, to create a wormhole, these tiny wormholes would need to be enlarged and stabilized to be useful for travel.

现在，为了创造虫洞，这些微小的虫洞需要扩大和稳定，以便对旅行有用。

But the exact method of doing this remains entirely theoretical.

但执行此操作的确切方法仍然完全是理论上的。

No, shit.

不，狗屎。

You think, so these tiny wormholes that are basically for the quantum entanglement of the particles somehow enlarged man, playing with the topology of the Swiss cheese.

你想，这些微小的虫洞基本上是为了粒子的量子纠缠而以某种方式放大了人，玩弄瑞士奶酪的拓扑结构。

So interesting because even to get a hint, that would be top three, if not one of maybe even number one question for me to ask, if I got a chance to ask.

很有趣，因为即使得到一个提示，如果我有机会问的话，这将是前三名，甚至可能是我要问的第一个问题。

An omniscient being.

一个全知的存在。

An omniscient being, of a question that can get answered to, maybe with some visualization.

一个无所不知的存在，一个可以通过一些想象得到答案的问题。

2:00:12 Like the shape, topology of the universe.

就像宇宙的形状、拓扑一样。

Yeah.

是的。

I need some details.

我需要一些细节。

2:00:23 I’ll get an answer that I can’t possibly comprehend.

我会得到一个我无法理解的答案。

Right.

对。

2:00:29 It’s a hyperbolic manifold that’s identified across you.

这是一个在你身上随处可见的双曲流形。

Exactly.

正是如此。

You need to be able to ask a follow-up question.

您需要能够提出后续问题。

Exactly.

正是如此。

2:00:36 Yeah.

是的。

That would be so interesting.

那会很有趣。

Anyway, classic quantum strategy.

不管怎样，经典的量子策略。

The second approach combines classical physics of quantum effects.

第二种方法结合了量子效应的经典物理学。

This method would require an advanced civilization to manipulate quantum gravity effects in ways we don’t yet understand.

这种方法需要先进的文明以我们尚不理解的方式操纵量子引力效应。

There’s a lot of.

有很多。

In ways we don’t understand.

以我们不理解的方式。

Yeah, there’s a lot of, and then there’s exotic matter requirements.

是的，有很多，还有奇异物质的要求。

2:00:53 There’s a lot of-

有很多——

But I can tell you, I’m pretty sure all of them have in common the feature that they’re saying, “Here’s what I want my wormhole to look like first.” So it’s like saying, “I want to build a building first.” So they construct.

但我可以告诉你，我很确定他们都有一个共同点，就是他们所说的：“这就是我希望我的虫洞首先看起来像的样子。”这就像说：“我想先盖一栋大楼。”所以他们建造。

2:00:56 There’s an architecture of the space-time that they’re after, and then they reverse the Einstein equations to say, “What must matter in energy?

他们追求的是一种时空结构，然后他们颠倒爱因斯坦方程说：“能量中什么必须重要？

What are the conditions that I impose on matter and energy to build this architecture?”

为了建造这个建筑，我对物质和能量施加了哪些条件？”

Which is unfortunately a very early step of figuring out.

不幸的是，这只是解决问题的一个非常早期的步骤。

Right.

对。

2:01:29 But it’s important because how they realized, oh wow, they have to have these negative energies.

但这很重要，因为他们如何意识到，哇哦，他们必须拥有这些负能量。

They have to violate certain energy conditions that we often assume are true.

它们必须违反我们通常认为正确的某些能量条件。

2:01:39 And then you either say, “Oh well, then all bets are off.

然后你要么说：“哦，好吧，那么所有的赌注都结束了。

They’ll never exist.” Or you look a little harder and you say, “Well, I can violate that energy condition without it being that big a deal.” And again, quantum mechanics often does violate those energy conditions.

他们永远不会存在。”或者你再仔细观察一下，然后说：“好吧，我可以违反那个能量条件，而没什么大不了的。”再说一次，量子力学确实经常违反这些能量条件。

So do you think the studying of black holes and some of the topics we’ve been talking about will allow us to travel faster than the speed of light?

那么你认为对黑洞的研究以及我们一直在谈论的一些话题会让我们的旅行速度超过光速吗？

2:01:56 Or travel close to the speed of light?

或者以接近光速行进？

Or do some kind of really innovative breakthroughs on the propulsion technology we use for traveling in space?

或者我们用于太空旅行的推进技术是否有某种真正的创新突破？

Yeah.

是的。

2:02:12 I mean, sometimes I assign in an advanced general relativity class the assignment of inventing a warp drive and it’s kind of similar.

我的意思是，有时我在高级广义相对论课程中布置的任务是发明曲速驱动器，这有点类似。

So the idea is here’s a place you want to get to and can you contract the space-time between you, with some the kind of something antithetical to dark energy; the opposite.

所以这个想法是，这是一个你想去的地方，你能用一些与暗能量相对立的东西来收缩你们之间的时空吗？相反。

And skip across and then push it back out again.

然后跳过然后再次将其推出。

You can do that in the context of general relativity.

你可以在广义相对论的背景下做到这一点。

2:02:43 Now, I can’t find the energy that has these properties, but I also can’t find dark energy.

现在，我找不到具有这些特性的能量，但我也找不到暗能量。

So we’ve already been confronted with something that we look at the space-time.

所以我们已经面临着时空观察的问题。

The space-time is expanding ever faster.

时空正在以越来越快的速度膨胀。

We say, “What could possibly do that?” We don’t know what it is, but I can tell you about its pressure.

我们说：“什么可能做到这一点？”我们不知道它是什么，但我可以告诉你它的压力。

I can tell you certain features about it, and I just call it dark energy, but I actually have no idea.

我可以告诉你它的某些特征，我只是称之为暗能量，但我实际上不知道。

It’s just that name’s just a proxy for what this, it should be called invisible because it’s not actually dark.

只是这个名字只是这个东西的代表，它应该被称为不可见，因为它实际上并不是黑暗的。

It’s in this room.

就在这个房间里。

It’s hard to see through.

很难看透。

It’s not dark.

天还没黑。

It’s literally invisible.

它实际上是看不见的。

2:03:18 So maybe that was a misnomer, but the point being, I still don’t fundamentally know what it is.

所以也许这是一个用词不当，但关键是，我仍然根本不知道它是什么。

That’s not so terrible.

那并没有那么可怕。

That’s the state of the world that we’re actually in.

这就是我们实际所处的世界状况。

So maybe Warp drive is just kind of like a version of that.

所以也许曲速驱动有点像它的一个版本。

I don’t know what form of matter can do that yet, but at least I identify the features that are needed.

我还不知道什么形式的物质可以做到这一点，但至少我确定了所需的功能。

So figuring out what dark energy is might land some clues.

因此，弄清楚暗能量是什么可能会找到一些线索。

Yeah, actually it might.

是的，实际上可能是这样。

2:03:40 It’s positive energy and a negative pressure, which is kind of like a rubber band sort of quality because we think of pressure is pushing things outward and dark energy has a very strange sort of quality that as things move outward, you feel more energy as opposed to less energy.

它是正能量和负压力，有点像橡皮筋的质量，因为我们认为压力正在将事物向外推，而暗能量有一种非常奇怪的质量，当事物向外移动时，你会感受到更多的能量，而不是更少的能量。

The energy doesn’t get lower, it gets more, so it doesn’t have.

能量并没有减少，而是增加了，所以它没有。

2:04:00 Energy doesn’t get lower, it gets more.

能量不会减少，只会增加。

So it doesn’t have the right features for the wormhole.

所以它不具备适合虫洞的特征。

But those are some pretty surprising features.

但这些都是一些非常令人惊讶的功能。

And we again, can conjecture like, “Oh hey, the quantum energy of the vacuum kind of behaves that way.

我们再次可以推测，“哦，嘿，真空的量子能量就是这样表现的。

That would be a great resolution to the dark energy problem.

这将是暗能量问题的一个很好的解决方案。

It’s just the energy of empty space, and it’s the quantum energy of empty space.” That’s an excellent answer.

这只是虚空的能量，而且是虚空的量子能量。”这是一个很好的答案。

2:04:24 The problem is, is by all our methods and all the understanding we have, that energy’s either really, really huge, huge, way bigger than what we see today, or it’s like zero.

问题是，通过我们所有的方法和我们所拥有的所有理解，能量要么真的非常巨大，比我们今天看到的要大得多，要么就像零。

So that’s a numbers problem.

所以这是一个数字问题。

We can’t naturally fine-tune the energy of empty space to give us this really weird value so that we just happen to be seeing it today.

我们无法自然地微调真空的能量来赋予我们这个非常奇怪的值，以至于我们今天碰巧看到它。

But again, we can think of a kind of dark energy that exists.

但同样，我们可以想到一种存在的暗能量。

So the question becomes, why is it such a weird value?

那么问题来了，为什么这个值这么奇怪呢？

Not how is this conceivable because we can conceive of it.

这不是如何想象的，因为我们可以想象它。

But if it’s a weird value, that means there is a phenomenon we don’t understand.

但如果它是一个奇怪的值，那就意味着存在我们不理解的现象。

Yes, there’s absolutely a phenomenon.

是的，绝对有这种现象。

2:05:08 Nobody’s going to say they’re happy with that.

没有人会说他们对此感到满意。

We’re all going to say there’s something we don’t understand, which is why we look to the extra dimensions.

我们都会说有些东西我们不理解，这就是为什么我们寻找额外的维度。

Then you can say, “Oh, maybe it has to do with the size of the extra dimensions or the way that they’re wrapped up.

然后你可以说，“哦，也许这与额外维度的大小或它们的包裹方式有关。

And so maybe it’s foisted on us because of the topology, the connectedness of the higher dimensional space.” These are all things that we’re exploring.

所以也许它是由于拓扑结构、高维空间的连通性而强加给我们的。”这些都是我们正在探索的事情。

Nobody’s landed one that’s so compelling that your friends like it as much as you do.

没有人能找到一款如此引人注目的产品，让您的朋友像您一样喜欢它。

What do you think would lead to the breakthroughs on dark matter and dark energy?

您认为什么会导致暗物质和暗能量方面的突破？

I think dark matter might be less peculiar than dark energy.

我认为暗物质可能没有暗能量那么奇特。

2:05:44 My hope is that they’re tied together, because that would be very gratifying.

我希望他们能够结合在一起，因为那将是非常令人欣慰的。

These aren’t just separate problems coming from different sectors, but that they’re actually connected, that the reason the dark matter is where it is in terms of how much it’s contributing to the universe is connected with why the dark energy is showing up right now.

这些不仅仅是来自不同部门的单独问题，而且它们实际上是相互关联的，暗物质对宇宙的贡献程度与暗能量现在出现的原因有关。

I would love that.

我会喜欢的。

That would be a solution like no other, right?

这将是一个独一无二的解决方案，对吗？

And like I said, if it revealed something about dark dimensions, that would be a happy day.

就像我说的，如果它揭示了一些关于黑暗维度的东西，那将是快乐的一天。

Correct me if I’m wrong, dark matter could be localized in space?

如果我错了请纠正我，暗物质可以定位在太空中吗？

Yeah, dark matter is localized in space, so it clumps.

是的，暗物质集中在太空中，所以它会结块。

2:06:28 It doesn’t clump a lot, but it’s around the galaxy.

它的团块不多，但它围绕着银河系。

It’s in a halo around the galaxy.

它位于银河系周围的光环中。

So people get increasingly more confident that that’s a thing?

所以人们越来越相信这是真的吗？

It’s really compelling.

这真的很引人注目。

Yeah.

是的。

You see these images of galaxies, clusters that pass through each other, and you can see where the light is, the luminous matter is distributed.

你可以看到这些相互穿过的星系、星团的图像，你可以看到光在哪里，发光物质分布在哪里。

2:06:42 And then by looking at the gravitational lensing, which shows you where the actual mass is distributed, so that light bends around the most massive parts in a particular way.

然后通过观察引力透镜，它会显示实际质量的分布位置，以便光线以特定的方式在最大质量的部分周围弯曲。

So you can reconstruct where the mass is gravitationally quite separate from looking at the luminous matter, which is not dark, and they are separate.

因此，您可以通过观察发光物质来重建质量在引力上完全分离的位置，发光物质不是黑暗的，而且它们是分开的。

Because the stuff as they pass through each other, the interacting stuff, the luminous stuff, collides and gets stuck.

因为当它们相互穿过时，相互作用的物质、发光的物质会发生碰撞并被卡住。

You can see it colliding and lighting up.

你可以看到它碰撞并发光。

The dark stuff, which by definition it’s dark because it doesn’t interact, passes right through through each other.

黑暗的东西，根据定义它是黑暗的，因为它不相互作用，直接穿过彼此。

It’s so compelling.

这太引人注目了。

And there’s lots of other observations, but that one is just…

还有很多其他的观察结果，但那只是……

Before you just look at it, you can see that the mass is distributed differently than the interacting luminous matter.

在您查看之前，您会发现质量的分布与相互作用的发光物质的分布不同。

So dark energy is harder to get a hold of?

那么暗能量更难掌握吗？

Dark energy is much harder to get a hold of.

暗能量更难掌握。

2:07:52 The Higgs field could have also explained dark energy.

希格斯场也可以解释暗能量。

If you’ve heard of, The God Particle?

如果你听说过上帝粒子？

I don’t know if you know the…

我不知道你是否知道……

Originally, Leon Lederman co-authored a book and he wanted to call it, The Goddamm Particle because they couldn’t light it.

最初，莱昂·莱德曼 (Leon Lederman) 与人合着了一本书，他想将其命名为“该死的粒子”，因为他们无法点燃它。

Nice.

不错。

His publisher convinced him to call it, The God Particle.

他的出版商说服他将其命名为“上帝粒子”。

2:08:10 And he said they managed to offend two groups, those that believed in God and those that didn’t.

他说他们成功地冒犯了两个群体，即信仰上帝的群体和不信仰上帝的群体。

That’s a good line, too.

这也是一条很好的路线。

2:08:21 Oh, boy.

哦，男孩。

He was very funny.

他很有趣。

2:08:23 He was very witty.

他非常机智。

So Higgs turned out to be-

所以希格斯原来是——

Higgs, great discovery, unbelievable.

希格斯粒子，伟大的发现，令人难以置信。

2:08:28 There it was, build this massive collider in CERN in Switzerland, and there it is, unbelievable.

就在那里，在瑞士欧洲核子研究中心建造了这座大型对撞机，令人难以置信。

Kind of where you expect it to be.

有点像你期望的那样。

Now, the reason I say it could be dark energy is because the Higgs particle, like a particle of light, also has a field like an electromagnetic field.

现在，我之所以说它可能是暗能量，是因为希格斯粒子就像光粒子一样，也有一个像电磁场一样的场。

So light can have this field that’s distributed through all space, electromagnetic field.

所以光可以有这个分布在整个空间的场，即电磁场。

And you shake it around and it creates little particles.

当你摇晃它时，它会产生小颗粒。

So the Higgs field is actually more important than the Higgs particle, the complement to the Higgs particle, because that’s what you and I connect with to get mass in our atoms.

因此，希格斯场实际上比希格斯粒子更重要，希格斯粒子是希格斯粒子的补充，因为这是你和我连接以获得原子质量的东西。

2:09:09 So the idea is that our atoms are interacting with this gooey field that’s everywhere.

所以我们的想法是，我们的原子正在与这个无处不在的粘性场相互作用。

And that’s giving us this experience of inertial mass.

这给了我们惯性质量的体验。

But we don’t actually…

但我们实际上并不……

There’s not a lot of quanta lying around.

周围没有很多量子。

There’s not a lot of Higgs particles lying around because they decay.

周围没有很多希格斯粒子，因为它们会衰变。

So it’s the field that’s really important, and that field could act like a dark energy.

所以这个场才是真正重要的，这个场可以像暗能量一样发挥作用。

It’s just not in the right place, meaning it’s not at the right…

它只是不在正确的位置，这意味着它不在正确的位置......

The energy’s too high to explain this tiny, tiny value today.

能量太高，无法解释今天这个非常非常小的值。

And again, we’re back to this mismatch.

我们又回到了这种不匹配的情况。

It’s not that we can’t conceive of forms of dark energy, it’s that we can’t make one where we’re finding it.

这并不是说我们无法想象暗能量的形式，而是我们无法在我们发现它的地方制造一种形式。

I wonder if you can comment on something that I’ve heard recently.

我想知道你是否可以评论一下我最近听到的一些事情。

2:09:52 There’s some people who say, people outside of physics, say that dark matter and dark energy is just something physicists made up-

有人说，物理学之外的人说，暗物质和暗能量只是物理学家编造出来的——

No.

不。

…

……

2:10:04 to put a label on the fact that they don’t understand a very large fraction of the universe and how it operates.

给这样一个事实贴上标签：他们不了解宇宙的很大一部分及其运作方式。

Is there some truth to that?

这有道理吗？

What’s your response to that?

您对此有何回应？

There’s some truth to it, but it’s really missing a huge point, which is that if we did not understand the universe as incredibly precisely as we do…

这话有一定道理，但它确实遗漏了一个重要的点，那就是如果我们不能像我们一样精确地理解宇宙……

2:10:15 It’s stunning that there’s modern, precision cosmology.

令人惊叹的是现代、精确的宇宙学。

It’s absolutely incredible.

这绝对令人难以置信。

When COBE, which is an experiment that measured the light leftover from the Big Bang in the ’80s, first revealed its observations, there was applause.

COBE 是一项测量 80 年代大爆炸剩余光的实验，当它首次公布其观测结果时，引起了热烈的掌声。

People were cheering.

人们欢呼雀跃。

It was unbelievable.

这太令人难以置信了。

We had predicted and measured the light leftover from the Big Bang.

我们预测并测量了大爆炸留下的光。

2:10:50 And because of all the precision that’s happened since then, that’s how we’re able to confront that there’s things that we don’t know.

由于从那时起发生的所有精确性，这就是我们能够面对我们不知道的事情的方式。

And that’s how we’re able to confront like, “Wow, this is really…” Everything everybody has ever seen and ever will see as far as we understand, makes up less than 5% of what’s out there.

这就是我们能够面对的方式，“哇，这真的是……”据我们所知，每个人曾经见过和将要看到的一切，只占现有事物的不到 5%。

And so I would say, yes, we are just giving proxy names to things we don’t understand, but to dismiss that as some kind of, “Oh, they just don’t know…” It is actually quite the opposite.

所以我会说，是的，我们只是为我们不理解的事物提供代理名称，但将其视为某种“哦，他们只是不知道……”而忽略它，实际上恰恰相反。

It is a stunning achievement to be able to stare that down and to have that so precise and so compelling that we’re able to know that there’s dark energy and dark matter.

能够凝视它并如此精确和如此引人注目，以至于我们能够知道暗能量和暗物质的存在，这是一项令人惊叹的成就。

I don’t think those are disputed anymore.

我认为这些不再有争议。

And they were, up until recently, they were still disputed.

直到最近，它们仍然存在争议。

I think we’re still at such early stages where we’re not really even at a good explanation.

我认为我们仍处于早期阶段，甚至还没有一个很好的解释。

2:11:40 You’ve mentioned a few.

你已经提到了一些。

Well, I can think of examples of dark matter that exist that we really know for sure are real versions of dark matter like neutrinos.

好吧，我可以想到一些我们确实知道存在的暗物质的例子，它们是像中微子这样的暗物质的真实版本。

2:11:48 Right now, they’re radiating through us.

现在，它们正在向我们辐射。

That’s very well confirmed, and they’re technically dark.

这已经得到很好的证实，而且它们在技术上是黑暗的。

They don’t interact with light, and so we can’t see them.

它们不与光相互作用，所以我们看不到它们。

Fight now, they’re raining through us.

现在就战斗吧，他们正像雨点一样穿过我们。

If we could see the dark matter in this room and we absolutely know is coming from the sun, it would be wild.

如果我们能看到这个房间里的暗物质，并且我们绝对知道它来自太阳，那就太疯狂了。

It would be a rainstorm.

这将是一场暴雨。

But they’re just invisible to us.

但它们对我们来说只是看不见的。

Mostly, they pass through our bodies, mostly they pass through the earth.

大多数情况下，它们穿过我们的身体，大多数情况下它们穿过地球。

Occasionally they get caught in some fancy detector experiment that somebody built specifically to catch solar neutrinos.

有时，他们会陷入一些奇特的探测器实验中，这些实验是有人专门为捕捉太阳中微子而建造的。

So dark matter is known to exist.

所以已知暗物质的存在。

It’s just, again, there’s not enough of it.

只是，再一次，这还不够。

It’s not the right mass to be the dark matter that makes up this missing component.

构成这个缺失成分的暗物质的质量不合适。

I wanted to say that I was recently fascinated by the flat earth people, because it’s been a split in the community.

我想说的是，我最近对地球是平的人很着迷，因为这是社区的分裂。

2:12:42 First of all, the community’s a fascinating study of human psychology.

首先，该社区是对人类心理学的一项有趣的研究。

But they did this experiment, where I forgot who funded it, but they sent physicists and Flat Earthers to Antarctica.

但他们做了这个实验，我忘了是谁资助的，但他们派了物理学家和地平论者到南极洲。

Really?

真的吗？

And this split happened because half of them got converted into Round Earthers.

这种分裂的发生是因为他们中有一半人转变为地球圆者。

Wow.

哇。

2:13:12 Well, good for them.

嗯，对他们有好处。

But then the other half just went that it was all a [inaudible 02:13:18]

但另一半却认为这一切都是[听不清 02:13:18]

Really?

真的吗？

2:13:17 That’s fascinating.

这很有趣。

Did somebody film that?

有人拍过吗？

That’d be a great documentary.

那将是一部很棒的纪录片。

Yeah, they did.

是的，他们做到了。

2:13:21 They did.

他们做到了。

They made a whole thing.

他们创造了一个完整的东西。

This was just at the end of last year, there was a big…

这还是去年年底的时候，发生了一件大事……

I’ve been meaning…

我一直想……

Because, I think that’s such a clean study of conspiracy theories.

因为，我认为这是对阴谋论的彻底研究。

Because there’s so many conspiracy theories have some inkling of truth in them.

因为有很多阴谋论都有一定的道理。

There’s some elements about the way governments operate or human psychology that it’s too messy.

政府运作方式或人类心理的某些因素太混乱了。

Flat Earther to me is just clean.

地平论对我来说只是干净的。

It’s like spaghetti moss or something.

就像意大利面苔藓什么的。

It’s just a cleanly wrong thing.

这完全是错误的事情。

Right.

对。

A nice way to discuss-

一个很好的讨论方式——

Understand the psychology.

了解心理学。

…

……

2:13:55 how a large number of people can believe a thing.

如何让很多人相信一件事。

And why do they want to believe the thing?

为什么他们愿意相信这件事？

2:13:59 What’s very interesting is trying to use rational arguments.

非常有趣的是尝试使用理性论证。

That makes it even more confounding to me.

这让我更加困惑。

I would understand more somebody who just said, “Look, I have faith and I believe these things, and it’s not about reason and it’s not about logic.” Okay, II don’t relate to it, but okay.

我会更理解那些刚刚说的人：“看，我有信仰，我相信这些事情，这与理性无关，与逻辑无关。”好吧，我不涉及这个，但是好吧。

2:14:24 But to say, “I’m going to use reason and logic to prove to you this completely orthogonal conclusion,” that I find really interesting.

但说“我将用理性和逻辑来向你证明这个完全正交的结论”，我觉得很有趣。

So there’s some kind of romance about reason and logic.

所以有某种关于理性和逻辑的浪漫。

There is.

有。

2:14:39 But also there’s a questioning of institutions that’s really interesting and important to understand.

但也有一个对机构的质疑非常有趣且需要理解。

Well, I actually appreciate the skeptic’s stance.

嗯，我实际上很欣赏怀疑论者的立场。

2:14:45 Scientists also have to be skeptics.

科学家也必须是怀疑论者。

We have to be childlike, naive, and somewhat in some sense really open to anything.

我们必须像孩子一样、天真，并且在某种意义上对任何事情都持开放态度。

Otherwise, you’re not going to be flexible, you’re not going to be at the forefront.

否则，你就不会变得灵活，也不会站在最前沿。

But also to be skeptical.

但也要持怀疑态度。

So I have respect for it.

所以我对它抱有尊重。

I guess that’s exactly what I’m saying is more confusing, because to invoke skepticism and then to want to use rational argument, what is the other component that’s going into this?

我想这正是我所说的更令人困惑的地方，因为要引发怀疑，然后想要使用理性论证，其中的另一个组成部分是什么？

Because as you said, this is something that’s easily verified.

因为正如你所说，这是很容易验证的事情。

We have people in space, so you have to believe a lot more machinery that’s a lot more difficult to justify, explain as a wild conspiracy.

我们在太空中有人，所以你必须相信更多的机器，而这些机器更难以证明其合理性，将其解释为疯狂的阴谋。

So there’s something about the conspiracy that stirs a positive emotion.

所以这个阴谋有一些能够激起积极情绪的东西。

I think one of the most incredible things…

我认为最令人难以置信的事情之一......

2:15:43 I have to talk to you about this.

我必须和你谈谈这件事。

One of the most incredible things that humans have ever accomplished is LIGO.

人类所完成的最令人难以置信的事情之一就是 LIGO。

We have to talk about gravitational waves.

我们不得不谈谈引力波。

And the very fact that we’re able to detect gravitational waves from the early universe is f-ing wild.

我们能够探测到来自早期宇宙的引力波这一事实本身就是疯狂的。

It’s crazy.

太疯狂了。

Can you explain what gravitational waves are?

你能解释一下什么是引力波吗？

2:16:04 And we should mention, you wrote a book about the humans, about the whole journey of detecting gravitational waves, and LIGO Black Hole Blues is the book.

我们应该提到，你写了一本关于人类、关于探测引力波的整个旅程的书，而 LIGO Black Hole Blues 就是这本书。

But can you talk about gravitational waves and how the hell we’re able to actually do it?

但是你能谈谈引力波以及我们到底是如何能够真正做到这一点的吗？

Let’s just start with the idea of gravitational waves.

让我们从引力波的概念开始。

2:16:21 I have to move around a lot of mass to make anything interesting happening, gravity.

我必须移动大量的质量才能使任何有趣的事情发生，重力。

If you think about it, gravity is incredibly weak.

如果你仔细想想，重力是非常微弱的。

Right now, the whole earth is pulling on me, and I can still get out of this chair and walk around.

现在，整个地球都在拉着我，我仍然可以离开这把椅子，四处走动。

That’s insane, the whole earth.

这太疯狂了，整个地球。

Gravity is weak.

重力很弱。

To get something going on in gravity, I need big objects and things like black holes.

为了让重力发生一些事情，我需要大物体和黑洞之类的东西。

So the idea is if black holes curve space and time around them in the way that we’ve been describing, things fall along the curves in space.

所以这个想法是，如果黑洞以我们所描述的方式弯曲它们周围的空间和时间，那么物体就会沿着空间中的曲线落下。

If the black holes move around, the curves have to follow them, right?

如果黑洞移动，曲线就必须跟随它们，对吗？

But they can’t travel faster than the speed of light either.

但它们的运动速度也不能超过光速。

So what happens is black holes, let’s say, move around, maybe I’ve got two black holes in orbit around each other, that can happen.

所以发生的事情是黑洞，比方说，移动，也许我有两个黑洞在彼此围绕的轨道上，这可能会发生。

2:17:09 It takes a while.

这需要一段时间。

Wave is created in the actual shape of space, and that wave follows the black holes as the black holes are undulating.

波是在空间的实际形状中产生的，当黑洞波动时，波就会跟随黑洞。

Eventually, those two black holes will merge.

最终，这两个黑洞将合并。

And as we were talking about, it doesn’t take an infinite time, even though there’s time dilation, because they’re both so big, they’re really deforming space-time a lot.

正如我们所说，即使存在时间膨胀，它也不需要无限的时间，因为它们都太大了，它们确实使时空变形了很多。

I don’t have a little tiny marble falling across an event horizon.

我没有一颗小弹珠落在事件视界上。

I have two event horizons.

我有两个事件视界。

And in the simulations, you can see it bobble and they merge together, and they make one bigger black hole, and then it radiates in the gravitational waves.

在模拟中，你可以看到它晃动，它们合并在一起，形成一个更大的黑洞，然后它在引力波中辐射。

It radiates away all those imperfections, and it settles down to one quiescent, perfectly silent black hole that’s spinning.

它辐射掉了所有这些缺陷，最终归于一个静止、完全沉默的旋转黑洞。

Beautiful stuff.

美丽的东西。

2:17:50 And it emits e=MC squared energy.

并且它发出e=MC平方的能量。

So the mass of the final black hole will be less than the sum of the two starter black holes.

因此最终黑洞的质量将小于两个初始黑洞的质量之和。

And that energy is radiated away in this ringing of space-time.

而那股能量就在这时空的响动中辐射出去。

It’s really important to emphasize that it’s not light.

需要强调的是，它并不轻。

None of this has to do literally with light that we can detect with normal things that detect light.

这些都与我们可以用普通物体检测到的光无关。

X-ray is a form of light.

X射线是光的一种形式。

Gamma rays are a form of light.

伽马射线是光的一种形式。

Infrared, optical, this whole electromagnetic spectrum, none of it is emitted as light.

红外线、光学、整个电磁波谱，没有一个是以光的形式发射的。

It’s completely dark.

天完全黑了。

It’s only emitted in the rippling of the shape of space.

只在空间形状的涟漪中散发出来。

2:18:26 A lot of times it’s likened closer to sound.

很多时候它被比作更接近声音。

Technically, we’ve kind of argued, I haven’t done an anatomical calculation, but if you’re near enough to two colliding black holes, they actually ring space-time.

从技术上讲，我们有点争论，我没有做过解剖学计算，但如果你距离两个碰撞的黑洞足够近，它们实际上会在时空上响起。

And the human auditory range, the frequency is actually in the human auditory range that the shape of space could squeeze and stretch your eardrum even in vacuum, and you could hear, literally hear these waves ringing.

还有人的听觉范围，频率实际上是在人的听觉范围内，即使在真空中，空间形状也可以挤压和拉伸你的耳膜，你可以听到，确实听到这些波在响。

So the idea is that they’re closer to something that you would want to map as a sound, than it’s something as a picture.

所以我们的想法是，它们更接近于你想要映射为声音的东西，而不是图像。

Sorry.

对不起。

2:19:11 So what do you think it would feel like to ride the gravitational waves?

那么你认为驾驭引力波会是什么感觉？

So, to exist, to exist.

所以，存在，存在。

Because you mentioned eardrums.

因为你提到了耳膜。

[Inaudible 02:19:22] literally bob around, your orbit would change, right?

[听不清 02:19:22] 从字面上看，你的轨道会改变，对吗？

2:19:22 If you were orbiting these black holes, two black holes, you’d be on a complicated orbit, but your orbit would get tossed about.

如果你绕着这些黑洞（两个黑洞）运行，你将处于一个复杂的轨道上，但你的轨道会被抛来抛去。

How would the experience because you’re inside space-time?

如果你身处时空之中，会有怎样的体验？

Yes, I see.

是的，我明白了。

2:19:36 So the black hole is experienced within space-time as a squeezing and stretching.

因此，黑洞在时空中被体验为挤压和拉伸。

So you would feel it as a sort of squeezing and stretching, and you would also find your location change, where you would fall would be redirected.

所以你会感觉到它是一种挤压和拉伸，你也会发现你的位置发生了变化，你跌倒的地方会被重定向。

So it’s literally a squeezing and stretching.

所以这实际上是一种挤压和拉伸。

That’s the way to think about it.

这就是思考的方式。

And it’s very detailed, the sort of nature of this.

这是非常详细的，这就是它的本质。

But for many years people thought, “Well, these gravitational waves kind of have to exist for these intuitive reasons I’ve described.

但多年来人们一直认为，“嗯，由于我所描述的直观原因，这些引力波必须存在。

As space-time’s curved, I move the curve.

当时空弯曲时，我移动曲线。

The wave has to propagate through that curved space-time.”

波必须通过弯曲的时空传播。”

2:20:15 But people didn’t know if they really carried energy.

但人们不知道它们是否真的携带能量。

The arguments went on and back and forth and papers written, and decades.

争论持续了几十年，论文也写了出来。

But I like this sound more than an analogy because I liken the black holes as like mallets on the drum.

但我更喜欢这个声音，而不是一个类比，因为我把黑洞比作鼓上的木槌。

The drum is space-time.

鼓是时空。

As they move, they bang on the drum of space-time and it rings.

当它们移动时，它们会敲击时空之鼓，鼓声就会响起。

Remarkably, those gravitational waves, things don’t interfere with them very much.

值得注意的是，那些引力波，物体对它们的干扰并不大。

So they can travel for 2 billion years, light years in distance, 2 billion years in time, and get to us as they were when they were emitted, quieter, more diffuse, maybe they’ve stretched out a little bit from the expansion of the universe, but they’re pretty preserved.

因此，它们可以旅行 20 亿年，距离为光年，时间为 20 亿年，并像它们发射时一样到达我们身边，更安静，更分散，也许它们因宇宙的膨胀而延伸了一点，但它们保存得很好。

2:21:02 And so, the idea of LIGO, this instrument, is to build a gigantic musical instrument.

因此，LIGO 这个仪器的想法是建造一个巨大的乐器。

It’s kind of like building an electric guitar where the electric guitar is recording the shape of the string, and it plays it back to you through an amplifier.

这有点像制作一把电吉他，电吉他记录琴弦的形状，然后通过放大器将其播放给您。

LIGO is trying to record the shape of the ringing drum, and they literally listen to it in the control room.

LIGO 正在尝试记录响鼓的形状，他们在控制室里确实听到了它。

It just sort of hums and wobbles, and they’re trying to play this recording drum back to you, as opposed to taking a snapshot.

它只是有点嗡嗡声和摆动，他们试图向你播放录音鼓，而不是拍摄快照。

It’s like in time.

就像时间一样。

But to construct this guitar-

但要建造这把吉他——

Yes, this gigantic instrument.

是的，这个巨大的乐器。

…

……

2:21:38 it has to be very large and extremely precise.

它必须非常大并且极其精确。

It’s unbelievable.

太难以置信了。

2:21:41 I can’t believe they succeeded.

我不敢相信他们成功了。

Honestly, I can’t believe they succeeded.

老实说，我不敢相信他们成功了。

It was so insane.

太疯狂了。

It was such a crazy thing to even attempt.

即使尝试也是一件疯狂的事情。

It took them 50 years.

他们花了50年的时间。

Really.

真的。

It’s people who started in their thirties and forties who were in their eighties when it succeeded.

那些从三四十岁开始的人，在八十多岁的时候就成功了。

Imagine that tenacity, the unbelievable commitment.

想象一下那种坚韧和令人难以置信的承诺。

But the sensitivity that we’re talking about, we have this musical instrument, 4 kilometers, spanning 4 kilometers in a kind of L shape with these tunnels where there’s the largest holes in the Earth’s atmosphere, because they pulled a vacuum in these tunnels to build this instrument.

但是我们谈论的灵敏度，我们有这个乐器，长 4 公里，跨度 4 公里，呈 L 形，这些隧道有地球大气层中最大的洞，因为他们在这些隧道中抽真空来建造这个乐器。

And they’re measuring, they’re trying to record the wobbling of space-time as it passes, this sort of undulation, that amounts to less than one ten-thousandth, the variation in a proton over the 4 kilometers.

他们正在测量，他们试图记录时空经过时的摆动，这种波动，相当于质子在 4 公里范围内的变化，不到万分之一。

It’s an insane, insane achievement.

这是一项疯狂、疯狂的成就。

I love great engineering.

我喜欢伟大的工程。

2:22:43 I love-

我爱-

I don’t know how they did it.

我不知道他们是怎么做到的。

2:22:44 I swear I followed them around just for fun.

我发誓我跟着他们只是为了好玩。

I am very theoretical.

我非常理论化。

I don’t build things.

我不建造东西。

I’m always super impressed that people can translate something on the page and it looks like wires.

我总是对人们可以翻译页面上的内容印象深刻，而且它看起来就像电线一样。

I don’t know how…

我不知道怎么...

I’m always surprised at what it looks like.

我总是对它的样子感到惊讶。

But I walked the tunnels with Ray Weiss who won the Nobel Prize along with Kip Thorne and Barry Barish, one of the project managers.

但我和获得诺贝尔奖的雷·韦斯 (Ray Weiss) 以及项目经理之一基普·索恩 (Kip Thorne) 和巴里·巴里什 (Barry Barish) 一起走过了隧道。

And I walked the tunnels with Ray.

我和雷一起走过隧道。

It was a delight.

这是一种乐趣。

Ray’s one of the most delightful people.

雷是最令人愉快的人之一。

Kip is one of the most wonderful people I’ve ever known.

基普是我所认识的最优秀的人之一。

And Ray said to me the reason why it was called Black hole Blues is because about a month before they succeeded, he said to me, “If we don’t detect black holes, this whole thing’s a failure, and we’ve led this country down this wrong path.”

雷对我说，之所以被称为“黑洞蓝调”，是因为在他们成功之前大约一个月，他对我说，“如果我们没有探测到黑洞，这整件事就是失败的，我们已经把这个国家引向了这条错误的道路。”

2:23:36 And he really felt like this tremendous responsibility for this project to succeed.

他真的觉得这个项目的成功肩负着巨大的责任。

And it weighed on him.

这对他来说很沉重。

It was just quite tremendous what the integrity, the scientific integrity.

诚信、科学的诚信是相当巨大的。

And the first instruments he built, he was building outside of MIT on a tabletop.

他制造的第一台仪器是在麻省理工学院外的桌面上制造的。

And his colleagues said, “You’re not going to get tenure.

他的同事们说：“你不会获得终身职位。

You’re never going to succeed.” And they just kept going.

你永远不会成功。”他们只是继续前进。

People like that, huge teams, huge collaborations is how the world moves forward because-

像这样的人、庞大的团队、巨大的合作是世界前进的方式，因为——

It’s an example.

这是一个例子。

There’s building cynicism about bureaucracies when a large number of people, especially connected to government, can be productive.

当很多人，尤其是与政府有联系的人能够高效工作时，人们就会对官僚机构产生愤世嫉俗的情绪。

2:24:17 Bureaucracy will slow everything down.

官僚主义会减慢一切。

So it’s nice to see an incredibly unlikely, exceptionally difficult engineering project like this succeed.

因此，很高兴看到像这样一个极其不可能、异常困难的工程项目取得成功。

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

So I understand why there’s this weight on his shoulders, and I’m grateful that there’s great leaders that push it forward like that.

所以我理解为什么他肩上的担子如此重，我很感激有伟大的领导者像这样推动它前进。

Yeah, it really is.

是的，确实如此。

2:24:44 You see so many moments when they could have stumbled.

你看到很多他们可能跌倒的时刻。

And they built a first generation machine just after 2000, and it wasn’t a surprise to them, but it detected nothing, crickets, crickets.

他们在 2000 年之后就制造了第一代机器，这对他们来说并不奇怪，但它什么也没检测到，蟋蟀，蟋蟀。

And they have the wherewithal to keep going.

他们有足够的资金继续前进。

2:25:02 Second generation, they’re about to turn the machine on, quote, unquote.

第二代，他们即将打开机器，引用，取消引用。

It’s a little bit of a simplification, but do their first science run, and they decide to postpone because they feel they’re not ready yet, September 14th in 2015.

这有点简单化，但在进行他们的第一次科学实验时，他们决定推迟，因为他们觉得自己还没有准备好，即 2015 年 9 月 14 日。

And the experimentalists are out there.

实验者就在那里。

They’re in the middle of the night, they’re working all night long, and they’re banging on the thing, literally driving trucks, slamming the brakes on to see the noise that it creates.

他们在半夜，通宵工作，敲打着东西，实际上是在驾驶卡车，猛踩刹车，看看它产生的噪音。

So they’re really messing with the machine, really interfering with it, just to calibrate how much noise can this thing tolerate?

所以他们真的在搞乱机器，真的干扰它，只是为了校准这个东西能容忍多少噪音？

2:25:36 And I guess the story is, they get tired.

我猜故事是这样的，他们累了。

There’s an instrument in Louisiana and there’s one in Washington state, and they go home, put their tools down, they go home.

路易斯安那州有一种乐器，华盛顿州也有一种乐器，他们回家，放下工具，然后回家。

They leave the instrument locked though, mercifully.

不过，幸运的是，他们还是把仪器锁上了。

And it’s something like within the span of an hour of them driving back to their humble abodes that they have in these remote regions where they built these instruments, this gravitational wave washes over, I think it hits Louisiana first.

就在他们开车回到他们在这些偏远地区建造这些仪器的简陋住所的一个小时内，这种引力波就席卷而来，我认为它首先袭击了路易斯安那州。

It travels across the US, rings the instrument in Washington state.

它穿越美国，在华盛顿州敲响乐器。

2:26:10 It began over a billion and a half years ago before multicellular organisms had emerged on the earth.

它始于十亿半年前，当时多细胞生物体还没有在地球上出现。

Just imagine this from like a distant view, this collision course.

想象一下，从远处看，这次碰撞的过程。

And it’s the centenary, it’s the year Einstein published General Relativity.

今年是爱因斯坦发表广义相对论一百周年。

So it was a hundred years.

就这样，一百年过去了。

Just think about where that signal was when Einstein in 1915 wrote down the General Theory of Relativity.

想想 1915 年爱因斯坦写下广义相对论时那个信号在哪里。

It was on its way here.

它正在来这里的路上。

It was almost here.

就快到了。

What do you think is cooler Einstein’s General Relativity or LIGO?

您认为爱因斯坦的广义相对论和 LIGO 哪个更酷？

Well, I can’t disparage my friends, but of course relativity is just so all-encompassing.

好吧，我不能贬低我的朋友们，但相对论当然是包罗万象的。

No, but so hold on a second.

不，但是请稍等一下。

2:27:00 All-encompassing, super powerful, leap of a theory.

包罗万象，超强，理论的飞跃。

And-

还有——

They built it.

他们建造了它。

…

……

2:27:10 they built it.

他们建造了它。

I don’t know, man, you’ve got me.

我不知道，伙计，你已经得到了我。

The greatest engineering in the…

世界上最伟大的工程......

Yeah.

是的。

Because I don’t know, yeah, humans getting together and building the thing.

因为我不知道，是的，人类聚集在一起建造这个东西。

2:27:17 That’s really, ultimately what impacts the world, right?

这确实是最终影响世界的因素，对吗？

Yeah.

是的。

2:27:25 Just as I said, my admiration for Ray and Kip and the entire team is enormous.

正如我所说，我对雷和基普以及整个团队非常钦佩。

And just imagining Ray had been out there on site, he had just left to go back home, wakes up in the middle of the night and sees it.

想象雷就在现场，他刚刚离开回家，半夜醒来看到了它。

Can you imagine?

你能想象吗？

And there’s a signal, there’s something in the log.

并且有一个信号，日志中有一些东西。

He’s like, “What the hell is that?”

他就像是，“那到底是什么？”

So speaking of the human story, you also wrote the book, A Madman Dreams of Turing Machines.

说到人类的故事，您还写了《图灵机的狂人梦想》一书。

2:27:51 It connects two geniuses of the 20th century, Alan Turing and Godel.

它连接了20世纪的两位天才阿兰·图灵和哥德尔。

What specific threads connect these two minds?

哪些具体线索将这两种思想联系在一起？

Yeah, I was really mesmerized by these two characters.

是的，我真的被这两个角色迷住了。

2:28:04 People know of Alan Turing for having ideated about the computer, being the person to really imagine that.

人们知道阿兰·图灵是因为他提出了计算机的构想，他是真正能想象到这一点的人。

But his work began with thinking about Godel’s work.

但他的工作始于对哥德尔作品的思考。

That’s where it began.

这就是事情开始的地方。

And it began with this phenomenon of undecidable propositions or unprovable propositions.

它始于这种不可判定命题或无法证明命题的现象。

So there was something huge that happened in mathematics, which is people imagined that any problem in math could technically be proven to be true.

所以数学领域发生了一件大事，人们想象数学中的任何问题在技术上都可以被证明是正确的。

It doesn’t mean human beings are going to prove every fact about everything in mathematics, but it should be provable, right?

这并不意味着人类要证明数学中所有事情的每一个事实，但它应该是可证明的，对吗？

It seems kind of…

看起来有点……

It’s not that wild of a supposition.

这并不是一个疯狂的假设。

2:28:53 And everyone believed this, all the great mathematicians.

每个人都相信这一点，所有伟大的数学家。

Hilbert, it was a call of his to prove that.

希尔伯特，他要求证明这一点。

And Godel, a very strange character, very unusual.

哥德尔是一个非常奇怪的人物，非常不寻常。

He was a Platonist.

他是一位柏拉图主义者。

He literally believed that mathematical objects had an existential reality.

他确实相信数学对象具有存在的现实。

He wasn’t so sure about this reality.

他对这个现实不太确定。

This reality he struggled with.

他与这个现实作斗争。

He was distrustful a physical reality, but he absolutely took very seriously a platonic reality in often his own way of thinking.

他不信任物理现实，但他通常以自己的思维方式绝对认真地对待柏拉图式的现实。

And he proved that there were facts even among the numbers that could never be proven to be true.

他证明了即使在数字中也有一些事实永远无法被证明是真实的。

To think about that, how wild that is, that even a fact about numbers seems very simple, could be true, and unprovable, could never exist as a theorem, for instance, in mathematics, unreachable.

想想看，即使是关于数字的事实看起来非常简单，也可能是真实的，并且无法证明，永远不可能作为定理存在，例如在数学中，无法达到，这是多么疯狂。

This incompleteness result was very disturbing.

这种不完整的结果非常令人不安。

Essentially, it’s equivalent to saying there’s no theory of everything for mathematics.

从本质上讲，这相当于说数学没有万有理论。

It was very disturbing to people, but it was very profound.

这对人们来说是非常令人不安的，但却是非常深刻的。

And Alan Turing got involved in this, because he was thinking about uncomputable numbers.

阿兰·图灵参与其中，因为他正在思考无法计算的数字。

And that led him, “What’s an uncomputable number?

这让他想到：“什么是无法计算的数字？

A number like 0.175, it just goes on forever with no pattern, and I can’t even figure out how to generate it.

像 0.175 这样的数字，它会永远持续下去，没有任何模式，我什至不知道如何生成它。

There’s no rule for making that number.”

没有规定可以达到这个数字。”

2:30:24 And he was able to prove that there were such things as these uncomputable, effectively unknowable numbers.

他能够证明存在诸如这些不可计算、实际上不可知的数字之类的东西。

That might not sound like a big deal.

这听起来可能没什么大不了的。

It was actually really quite profound.

其实是非常深刻的。

He was relating to Godel intellectually in the space of ideas.

他在思想空间上与哥德尔有智力上的联系。

But he goes a very different path, almost philosophically the opposite direction.

但他走了一条截然不同的道路，在哲学上几乎是相反的方向。

He starts to think about machines.

他开始思考机器。

He starts to think about mechanizing thought, starts to think, “What is a proof?

他开始思考机械化思想，开始思考，“什么是证明？

How does a mathematician reason?

数学家如何推理？

What does it mean to reason at all?

推理到底意味着什么？

What does it mean to think?”

思考是什么意思？”

2:30:56 And he begins to imagine inventing a machine that will execute certain orders, mechanize thought in a specific way.

他开始想象发明一种机器，可以执行某些命令，以特定的方式使思维机械化。

“Well, maybe I can get a machine.

“好吧，也许我可以买一台机器。

I can imagine a machine that does this kind of thinking,” and that he can prove that even a machine could not compute these uncomputable numbers.

我可以想象一台机器可以进行这种思考，”并且他可以证明即使是机器也无法计算这些无法计算的数字。

2:31:16 But where he ends up is the idea of a universal machine that computes, essentially can take different software and execute different jobs.

但他最终提出了一种通用机器的想法，它可以进行计算，本质上可以采用不同的软件并执行不同的工作。

We don’t have a different computer to connect to the internet than we do to write papers.

我们没有一台用来连接互联网的计算机和用来写论文的计算机不同。

It’s one machine and one piece of hardware.

它是一台机器和一件硬件。

But it can do all of this huge variety of tasks.

但它可以完成所有这些种类繁多的任务。

And so, he really does invent the computer, essentially.

因此，从本质上讲，他确实发明了计算机。

And famously, he uses that thinking in a very primitive form in the war effort where he’s recruited to help break the German enigma code, which is heavily encrypted and largely believed to be uncrackable code.

众所周知，他在战争中以一种非常原始的形式运用了这种思维，他被招募来帮助破解德国恩尼格码，这种密码被高度加密，并且在很大程度上被认为是无法破解的代码。

And people believe that Turing and his very small group actually turned the tide of the war in favor of the allies, precisely by using a combination of this thinking and just sheer ingenuity and some luck.

人们相信，图灵和他的一小群人实际上扭转了战争的潮流，有利于盟友，正是通过结合这种思维、纯粹的聪明才智和一些运气。

2:32:17 But the other profound revelation that Turing has is that, “Well, maybe we’re just machines, just biological machines.” And this is a huge shift for him.

但图灵的另一个深刻启示是，“好吧，也许我们只是机器，只是生物机器。”这对他来说是一个巨大的转变。

It feels very different from Godel who doesn’t really believe in reality and thinks numbers are platonic realities, and Turing thinking, “We’re actually machines and we could be replicated.” So of course, Turing’s influence is still widely felt.

这感觉与哥德尔非常不同，哥德尔并不真正相信现实，认为数字就是柏拉图式的现实，而图灵则认为“我们实际上是机器，我们可以被复制”。当然，图灵的影响仍然广泛存在。

On many levels.

在很多层面上。

On many levels, yeah.

在很多层面上，是的。

In complexity theory, in theoretical computer science and mathematics.

在复杂性理论、理论计算机科学和数学中。

Oh, all over the place.

哦，到处都是。

But also in philosophy with his famous Turing test paper.

而且在哲学方面也有他著名的图灵测试论文。

2:32:54 So like you said, conceiving, what is the connection that, I guess, Godel never really made between mathematics and humanity, Turing did.

所以就像你说的，我猜哥德尔从未真正在数学和人类之间建立过联系，图灵做到了。

But I think there’s another connection to those two peoples, that they’re both in their own way kind of tormented humans.

但我认为这两个民族还有另一种联系，他们都是以自己的方式遭受折磨的人类。

I think they were very tormented.

我认为他们受到了很大的折磨。

What aspects of that contributed to who they are and what ideas they developed?

哪些方面造就了他们的身份以及他们提出了哪些想法？

I think, so much.

我想，就这么多。

2:33:23 I don’t want to promote the trite trope of the mad genius, if you’re brilliant, you are insane.

我不想宣扬疯狂天才的陈词滥调，如果你很聪明，那么你就是疯子。

I don’t think that.

我不这么认为。

I don’t think if your insane, you’re brilliant.

我不认为如果你疯了，你就很聪明。

But I do think somebody who’s very brilliant, who also chooses not to go for regular gratification in life, they don’t go for money.

但我确实认为，那些非常聪明的人，也选择不追求生活中的定期满足，他们不会追求金钱。

They don’t necessarily value creature comforts.

他们不一定重视物质享受。

They not leveraging for fame.

他们不利用名誉。

They’re really after something different.

他们真正追求的是不同的东西。

I think that can lead to a kind of runaway instability actually, Sometimes.

我认为有时这实际上会导致一种失控的不稳定。

They’re already outside of social norms.

他们已经脱离了社会规范。

They’re already outside of normal connections with people.

他们已经脱离了与人的正常联系。

They’ve already made that break, and I think that makes them more vulnerable.

他们已经实现了这一突破，我认为这让他们更加脆弱。

2:34:23 So Gödel did have a wife and a strong relationship as far as I understand, and was a successful mathematician and ended up at the Institute for Advanced Study where he walked with Einstein to the institute every day.

据我所知，哥德尔确实有一个妻子和牢固的关系，并且是一位成功的数学家，最终进入了高等研究院，他每天和爱因斯坦一起步行到该研究所。

And they talked about…

他们谈论了……

And he proved certain really unusual things in relativity.

他证明了相对论中某些非常不寻常的事情。

You made reference to these rotating galaxies, we were talking, and actually Gödel had a model of a rotating universe that you could travel backwards in time.

你提到了这些旋转的星系，我们正在谈论，实际上哥德尔有一个旋转宇宙的模型，你可以在时间上倒退。

It was mathematically correct.

这在数学上是正确的。

Showed Einstein that within relativity you could time travel.

向爱因斯坦表明，在相对论中你可以进行时间旅行。

Just an unbelievably influential and brilliant man.

只是一个令人难以置信的有影响力和才华横溢的人。

But he was probably…

但他很可能是……

2:35:00 …

……

influential and brilliant man, but he was probably a paranoid schizophrenic.

他是一个有影响力和才华横溢的人，但他可能是一个偏执的精神分裂症患者。

He did have breaks with reality.

他确实与现实决裂了。

He was, I think, quite distrustful and feared the government, and feared his food was being poisoned, and ultimately, literally starved himself to death.

我认为，他非常不信任，害怕政府，担心他的食物被投毒，最终，他真的饿死了。

And it’s such an extreme outcome for such a facile mind, for such a brilliant mind.

对于如此轻率、如此聪明的头脑来说，这是一个如此极端的结果。

I think it’s important to not glorify or romanticized madness or suffering, but to me, you could flip that around and just be inspired by the peculiar maladies of a human mind, how they can be leveraged and channeled creatively.

我认为重要的是不要美化或浪漫化疯狂或痛苦，但对我来说，你可以翻转这一点，只是从人类心灵的特殊弊病中获得启发，以及如何创造性地利用和引导它们。

Oh yeah.

哦，是的。

I think a lot of us, obviously, probably every human has those peculiar qualities.

我认为我们很多人，显然，可能每个人都具有这些独特的品质。

2:35:53 I talk to people sometimes about just my own psychology, and I’m extremely self-critical, and I’m drawn to the beauty in people, but because I make myself vulnerable to the world, I can really be hurt by people, and that thing, okay, you can lay that out.

有时我会和人们谈论我自己的心理，我非常自我批评，我被人们的美丽所吸引，但因为我让自己对世界变得脆弱，所以我真的会被人们伤害，那件事，好吧，你可以把它说出来。

That’s like this particular human, and there’s a bunch of people that will say, “Well, many of those things you don’t want to do.

就像这个特定的人一样，有很多人会说：“好吧，很多事情你不想做。

Maybe don’t be so self-critical.

也许不要那么自我批评。

Maybe don’t be so open to the world.

也许不要对世界那么开放。

Maybe have a little bit more reason about how you interact with the outside world.” It’s like, “Yeah, maybe,” or maybe be that, and be that fully and channel that into a productive life into…

也许对于你如何与外界互动有更多的理由。”就像，“是的，也许，”或者也许就是这样，充分发挥这一点，并将其转化为富有成效的生活……

We’re all going to die.

我们都会死。

2:36:49 In the time we have on this earth, make the best of the particular weirdness that you have, and maybe you’ll create something special in this world, and in the end it might destroy you.

在我们在这个地球上的时间里，充分利用你所拥有的特殊怪异，也许你会在这个世界上创造出一些特别的东西，但最终它可能会毁了你。

And I think a lot of these stories are that.

我认为很多这样的故事都是这样的。

It’s not like saying, “Oh, because in order to achieve anything great, you have to suffer.” No.

这并不是说，“哦，因为为了取得伟大的成就，你必须受苦。”不。

If you’re already suffering, if you’re already weird, if you’re already somehow don’t quite fit in your particular environment, in your particular part of society, use that somehow.

如果你已经在受苦，如果你已经很奇怪，如果你已经在某种程度上不太适应你的特定环境，在你社会的特定部分，那就以某种方式利用它。

Use the tension of that, the friction of that to create something.

利用它的张力、摩擦力来创造一些东西。

That’s what I need you who suffered a lot from even stupid stuff like stomach issues-

这就是我需要的你，即使是胃病这样的愚蠢的事情也让你饱受折磨——

Oh yeah [inaudible 02:37:39].

哦，是的 [听不清 02:37:39]。

2:37:38 Right.

正确的。

That can be everything.

这可以是一切。

Migraines-

偏头痛-

Psychosomatic, or psychophysical, but-

心身的，或心理物理的，但是-

That can somehow be channeled into a productive life.

这可以以某种方式转化为富有成效的生活。

2:37:48 It should be inspiring ’cause a lot of us suffer in different ways.

这应该是鼓舞人心的，因为我们很多人都以不同的方式遭受痛苦。

Yeah.

是的。

2:37:56 I’m a big believer in the tragic flaw, actually.

事实上，我非常相信这个悲剧性的缺陷。

I think the Greeks really had that right.

我认为希腊人确实有这个权利。

You’re describing it.

你正在描述它。

What makes us great is ultimately our downfall.

使我们伟大的最终是我们的失败。

Maybe that’s just inevitable.

也许这是不可避免的。

The choice could be not to be great.

选择可能不是很好。

And I guess that’s sort of what I mean by, “They had already broken from a traditional path because they decided to pursue something so elusive and that would isolate them, to some extent, inevitably, and that could fail, and whose rewards were hard to predict, even.” And I do think that all the character traits that went into their accomplishments were the same traits that went into their demise.

我想这就是我的意思，“他们已经脱离了传统道路，因为他们决定追求一些如此难以捉摸的东西，这在某种程度上不可避免地会孤立他们，而且可能会失败，甚至他们的回报也很难预测。”我确实认为，导致他们取得成就的所有性格特征都与导致他们死亡的特征相同。

I think you’re right.

我认为你是对的。

You could say, “Well, Lex, maybe you should not be so empathetic.

你可以说：“好吧，Lex，也许你不应该那么有同理心。

Cut yourself off a little bit, protect yourself,” but isn’t that exactly what you are bringing, one of the elements that you’re bringing that makes something extraordinary in a space that lots of people try to break through.

与自己隔绝一点，保护自己，”但这不正是你所带来的，你所带来的元素之一，在许多人试图突破的空间中创造了非凡的东西。

We should mention that for every girl on Turing, there’s millions of people who have tried and who have destroyed themselves, and without-

我们应该提到，对于图灵上的每一个女孩来说，都有数以百万计的人尝试过并毁掉了自己，但没有——

[inaudible 02:39:18].

[听不清 02:39:18]。

…

……

2:39:17 without reason.

无缘无故。

I would find it impossible to not pursue a discovery that I could imagine my way through, if I can really see how to get there.

如果我真的知道如何到达那里，我会发现不可能不去追求一个我可以想象的发现。

2:39:18 I cannot imagine abandoning it for some other reason, fear that it would be misused, which is a real fear.

我无法想象因为其他原因而放弃它，担心它会被滥用，这是一种真正的恐惧。

I mean, it’s a real concern.

我的意思是，这是一个真正令人担忧的问题。

I don’t think in my work, since I’m doing extra vengeance in the early universe or black holes, I feel pretty safe.

我不认为在我的工作中，因为我在早期宇宙或黑洞中进行额外的复仇，所以我感到很安全。

But, I mean, who knows, right?

但是，我的意思是，谁知道呢，对吧？

Bohr couldn’t think of a way to use quantum mechanics to kill people.

玻尔想不出一种利用量子力学杀人的方法。

I cannot imagine pulling back and saying, “Nope, I’m not going to finish this.”

我无法想象退后一步说：“不，我不会完成这件事。”

I’ll give you a common example of an exceptionally brilliant person, Terence Tao.

我给你举一个非常聪明的人的常见例子，陶哲轩。

Brilliant.

杰出的。

Brilliant mathematician.

杰出的数学家。

Brilliant.

杰出的。

Out of all the brilliant people I’ve ever met in the world, he’s better than anybody else at working on a hard problem, and then realizing when it’s, for now, a little too hard.

在我见过的世界上所有才华横溢的人中，他比任何人都更擅长解决难题，然后意识到目前的问题有点太难了。

Oh, that I can do.

哦，我能做到。

Stepping away.

走开。

2:40:28 And he is like, “Okay, this is now a weekend problem.”

他说：“好吧，这现在是周末的问题了。”

Absolutely.

绝对地。

He has seen too much for him.

他已经看到太多了。

2:40:35 Everyone’s different, but Grigori Perelman or Andrew Wiles who give themselves-

每个人都是不同的，但 Grigori Perelman 或 Andrew Wiles 奉献自己——

Yes, that’s a great story.

是的，这是一个很棒的故事。

…

……

2:40:46 completely for many years over to a problem and for every Grigori problem-

多年来完全专注于一个问题和每个格里戈里问题-

And they might not have cracked it.

他们可能还没有破解它。

Yep.

是的。

2:40:50 So you choose your life story.

所以你选择你的人生故事。

I totally agree.

我完全同意。

2:40:53 Sometimes I take too long to come to that conclusion, but I will proudly say, as most theoretical physicists should, that I kill most of my ideas myself.

有时我花了太长时间才得出这个结论，但我会自豪地说，就像大多数理论物理学家应该做的那样，我自己扼杀了我的大部分想法。

Okay, so you’re able to walk away?

好吧，那你能走开吗？

I am absolutely able to say, “Oh, that’s just not…” I mean, I’m not going to deny that sometimes I maybe take a while to come to that conclusion, longer than I should, but I will.

我绝对可以说，“哦，那不是……”我的意思是，我不会否认有时我可能需要一段时间才能得出这个结论，比我应该的时间更长，但我会的。

2:41:07 I absolutely will.

我绝对会的。

I will drop it.

我会把它扔掉。

Any self-respecting physicist should be able to do that.

任何有自尊的物理学家都应该能够做到这一点。

The problem is with somebody like Andrew Wiles, you were describing, who to prove Fermat’s Last Theorem, it took him seven years.

问题出在像你所描述的安德鲁怀尔斯这样的人身上，他花了七年的时间来证明费马大定理。

Was that the number?

是那个号码吗？

Something like that.

类似的事情。

He went up into his mother’s attic or something, and did not emerge for seven years, is that maybe he did.

他去了他母亲的阁楼什么的，七年没有出现，也许他确实出现了。

He was on the right track.

他走在正确的轨道上。

He wasn’t wrong, so it could have been interminable.

他没有错，所以这可能是无休止的。

He still might not have gotten there in the end.

他最终可能还是没能到达那里。

And so, that’s the really difficult space to be in, where you’re not wrong, you are onto something, but it’s just asymptotically approaching that solution, and you’re never actually going to land it.

所以，这是一个非常困难的空间，你没有错，你在做一些事情，但它只是渐进地接近那个解决方案，而你永远不会真正实现它。

That happens.

就会发生这种情况。

It would break me, straight up break me.

它会击垮我，直接击垮我。

2:42:06 He had a proof.

他有证据。

Yes [inaudible 02:42:11]-

是的 [听不清 02:42:11]-

…

……

2:42:11 he announced it, and somebody found a mistake in it.

他宣布了这一点，有人发现了其中的错误。

That would just break me.

那只会让我心碎。

Because you announced, everybody gets excited, and now you realize that it’s a failure, and to go back-

因为你宣布了，大家都兴奋了，现在你意识到这是失败的，然后回去——

I mean, it was taking a year for people to check it.

我的意思是，人们花了一年的时间来检查它。

2:42:22 It’s not the kind thing you look over in an afternoon.

这不是你一个下午就能看到的东西。

And then to have the will, to have the confidence and the the patience to go back and-

然后要有意愿、有信心和耐心回去——

Unbelievable story.

令人难以置信的故事。

…

……

2:42:32 rigorously go through, work through it.

严格地去经历，去完成它。

It’s a great story.

这是一个很棒的故事。

But then there’s another great story, Grigori Perelman, who spent seven years and turned on the Fields Medal.

但还有另一个伟大的故事，格里戈里·佩雷尔曼 (Grigori Perelman)，他花了七年时间获得了菲尔兹奖。

2:42:34 He did it all alone [inaudible 02:42:43] after, he turned down the Field Medal and the Millennium Prize proving the Poincare Conjecture, he just walked away.

他独自完成了这一切[听不清 02:42:43]，在他拒绝了证明庞加莱猜想的田野奖章和千年奖之后，他就走开了。

Yeah.

是的。

2:42:49 Now, that’s a very different psychology.

现在，这是一种非常不同的心理。

That’s wired differently.

接线方式不同。

Doesn’t care about money, doesn’t care about fame, doesn’t care about anything else.

不关心金钱，不关心名誉，不关心其他任何事情。

2:42:54 In fact-

事实上——

Where is he now?

他现在在哪里？

In St. Petersburg, Russia.

在俄罗斯圣彼得堡。

2:43:00 I’m trying to get a conversation with him.

我正在尝试与他交谈。

It turns out when you walk away and you’re a recluse and you enjoy that, you also don’t want to-

事实证明，当你走开并成为隐士时，你很享受这样，但你也不想-

Take interviews.

接受采访。

…

……

2:43:10 talk to some weird dude in a tie.

和一些打领带的奇怪家伙说话。

I’m trying, I’m trying.

我正在努力，我正在努力。

Well, if you look at someone like Turing, his eccentricities were completely different.

好吧，如果你看看像图灵这样的人，他的怪癖就完全不同了。

2:43:16 It’s not as though there’s some mold, and I really don’t like it when it’s portrayed that way.