乔丹·乔纳斯：荒野生存、狩猎、西伯利亚、上帝与《独行侠》第六季夺冠

The following is a conversation with Jordan Jonas, winner of Alone Season 6, a show where the task is to survive alone in the arctic wilderness longer than anyone else.

以下是与《孤独》第六季冠军乔丹·乔纳斯的对话，该剧的任务是在北极荒野中独自生存比其他任何人都更久的时间。

00:00 He is widely considered to be one of, if not the greatest competitors on that show.

他被广泛认为是该节目中最伟大的竞争对手之一，甚至是最伟大的竞争对手之一。

He has a fascinating life story that took him from a farm in Idaho and hoboing on trains across America to traveling with tribes in Siberia.

他有一个引人入胜的人生故事，从爱达荷州的一个农场，乘火车穿越美国到与西伯利亚的部落一起旅行。

All that helped make him into a world-class explorer, survivor, hunter, wilderness guide, and most importantly, a great human being with a big heart and a big smile.

所有这些使他成为世界级的探险家、幸存者、猎人、荒野向导，最重要的是，他成为一个拥有宽广胸怀和灿烂笑容的伟大人。

This was a truly fun and fascinating conversation.

这是一次真正有趣且引人入胜的对话。

Let me also mention that at the end, after the episode, I’ll start answering some questions and we’ll try to articulate my thinking on some top-of-mind topics.

我还要提一下，在最后，在这一集之后，我将开始回答一些问题，我们将尝试阐明我对一些首要主题的想法。

So, if that’s of interest to you, keep listening after the episode is over.

因此，如果您对此感兴趣，请在剧集结束后继续收听。

This is The Lex Fridman Podcast.

这是莱克斯·弗里德曼播客。

Support it.

支持一下。

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请在说明中查看我们的赞助商。

And now, dear friends, here’s Jordan Jonas.

现在，亲爱的朋友们，这是乔丹·乔纳斯。

01:19 You won Alone Season 6, and I think are still considered to be one of, if not the most successful survivor on that show.

你赢得了《孤独》第六季，我认为即使不是该节目中最成功的幸存者，仍然被认为是其中之一。

So let’s go back, let’s look at the big picture.

那么让我们回过头来，看看大局。

Can you tell me about the show Alone?

能介绍一下《孤独》这部剧吗？

How does it work?

它是如何运作的？

Yeah.

是的。

01:35 It’s a show where they take 10 individuals and each person gets 10 items off of the list.

在这个节目中，他们邀请了 10 个人，每个人从清单中选出 10 项。

Basic items would be an axe, a saw, a frying pan, some pretty basic stuff.

基本物品是斧头、锯子、煎锅，以及一些非常基本的东西。

And then, they send them all, drop them off all in the woods with a few cameras.

然后，他们把它们全部发送出去，用几台相机把它们全部扔到树林里。

And so, the people are actually alone.

所以，人们实际上是孤独的。

There’s not a crew or anything, and then you basically live there as long as you can.

没有工作人员或任何东西，然后你基本上可以尽可能长时间地住在那里。

And so, the person that lasts the longest, once the second place person taps out, they come and get you, and that individual wins.

所以，坚持时间最长的人，一旦第二名的人出局，他们就会来抓你，那个人就赢了。

So, it’s a pretty legit challenge.

所以，这是一个非常合法的挑战。

They drop you off, helicopter flies out, and you’re not going to get your next meal until you make it happen.

他们送你下车，直升机飞出去，除非你做到了，否则你将无法吃到下一顿饭。

So…

所以……

You have to figure out the shelter, you have to figure out the source of food, and then it gets colder and colder because I guess they drop you out in a moment where it’s going into the winter.

你必须找到避难所，你必须找到食物的来源，然后天气会变得越来越冷，因为我猜他们会在即将进入冬天的时候把你送出去。

Yeah, they typically do it in temperate, colder climates, things like that.

是的，他们通常在温带、寒冷的气候下这样做。

02:31 And they start in September, October, so time’s ticking when they drop you off.

他们从九月、十月开始，所以当他们送你下车的时候，时间就在流逝。

And yeah, the pressure’s on.

是的，压力很大。

You get overwhelmed with all the things you have to do right away.

你会对所有必须立即做的事情感到不知所措。

Like, oh man, I’m not going to eat again until I actually shoot or catch something.

就像，天哪，在我真正射击或抓住东西之前我不会再吃东西了。

Got to build a shelter.

得建个避难所。

It’s pretty overwhelming.

这是相当压倒性的。

Figure your whole location out, but it’s interesting, because once you’re there, a little while, you get into a…

弄清楚你的整个位置，但这很有趣，因为一旦你到达那里，过了一会儿，你就会陷入……

Well, at least for me it did, there was a week, or maybe not a week, but that I was kind of a little more annoyed with things.

好吧，至少对我来说确实如此，有一个星期，或者也许不是一个星期，但我对事情有点恼火。

It’s like, “Oh, my site sucks,” and then you kind of accept it.

就像，“哦，我的网站很糟糕”，然后你就接受了。

You know what it is, what it is.

你知道它是什么，它是什么。

No code, no amount of complaining is going to do anybody any good, so I’m just going to make it happen or do my best to.

没有代码，再多的抱怨也不会对任何人有任何好处，所以我只会让它发生或尽我最大的努力。

03:22 And then I felt like I got in a zone and I felt like I was right back in Siberia or in that head space.

然后我感觉自己进入了一个区域，感觉自己又回到了西伯利亚，或者回到了那个头脑空间。

And I found, I actually really enjoyed it.

我发现，我真的很喜欢它。

I had been a little bit out of, I guess you call it the game, because I had had a child.

我有点脱离了，我猜你称之为游戏，因为我有一个孩子。

And so, when we had our daughter, we came back to the States and then a bunch of things happened, and we didn’t end up going back to Russia, so it’d been a couple of years that I was just, we were raising the little girl and boy then and then-

所以，当我们有了女儿后，我们回到美国，然后发生了很多事情，我们最终没有回到俄罗斯，所以我已经好几年了，我们时不时地抚养小女孩和男孩——

So you’d gotten a little soft.

所以你变得有点软了。

So I was like, “Did I got a little soft?”

所以我想，“我是不是有点软弱了？”

Have to figure that out.

必须弄清楚这一点。

But then it was fun after just some days there I was like, “Oh man, I feel like I’m at home now.” And then, it was like you’re kind of in that flow state, and it was-

但在那里呆了几天之后，我就觉得很有趣，“天哪，我感觉就像在家里一样。”然后，就好像你处于那种心流状态，而且是——

Actually, there’s a few moments when you left the ladder up or with the moose that you kind of screwed up a little bit.

事实上，有一些时候，当你把梯子留在上面或者把驼鹿放在一边时，你有点搞砸了。

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

How do you go from that moment of frustration to the moment of acceptance?

你如何从沮丧的那一刻到接受的那一刻？

I mean, the more you put yourself in life in positions that are kind of outside your comfort zone or push your abilities, the more often you’re going to screw up, and then the more opportunity you have to learn from that.

我的意思是，你越是把自己置于生活之外的位置，或者超越自己的能力，你就越容易搞砸，然后你就越有机会从中学习。

04:16 And then to be honest, it’s kind of funny, but you almost get to a position where you don’t feel that…

老实说，这有点有趣，但你几乎没有感觉到……

It’s not unexpected.

这并不意外。

You kind of expect you’re going to mess up here and there.

你有点预料到自己会到处搞砸。

I remember particularly with the moose, the first moose I saw, I had a great shot at it, but I had a hard time judging distance because it was in a mud flat, which means it’s hard to tell yardage because you usually typically go and by trees or markers and be like, “Oh, I’m probably 30 yards away.” This was a giant moose and he was 40 something yards away, and I estimated that he was 30 something yards away.

我尤其记得那头驼鹿，我看到的第一只驼鹿，我有一个很好的机会，但我很难判断距离，因为它在泥滩上，这意味着很难判断码数，因为你通常会沿着树木或标记走，然后说，“哦，我可能在 30 码之外。”这是一头巨大的驼鹿，距离他有 40 码左右，我估计他在 30 码之外。

So I was way off and shot and dropped between his legs.

于是我就离开了很远的地方，中弹了，然后掉到了他的两腿之间。

And then I realized I had not grabbed my quiver, so I only had one shot, and I just watched him turn around and walk off.

然后我意识到我没有抓住我的箭袋，所以我只开了一枪，我只是看着他转身走开。

05:15 But I was struck initially with…

但一开始我的震惊是……

I actually noticed how mad I was.

我实际上注意到我有多生气。

I was like, “Oh, this is actually…” I was like, “That was awesome though.

我当时想，“哦，这实际上是……”我当时想，“那真是太棒了。

It was seeing a dinosaur.

它看到了一只恐龙。

That was really cool.” And then I was like, “Oh, what an idiot.

那真是太酷了。”然后我就想，“哦，真是个白痴。

How’d I miss?” But it made me that much more determined to make it happen again.

我怎么错过了？”但这让我更加坚定了再次实现这一目标的决心。

It was like, “Okay, nobody’s going to make this happen except myself.” You can’t complain.

就像是，“好吧，除了我自己，没有人能让这件事发生。”你不能抱怨。

It wouldn’t have done me any good to go back and mope about it.

如果我回去再为这件事闷闷不乐，那对我没有任何好处。

And so then I was like, I had a thought.

然后我就想，我有一个想法。

I was like, “Oh, I remember these native guys telling me they used to build these giant fences and funnel game into certain areas and stuff.” And I was like, “Man, that’s a lot of calories, but I have to make that happen again now.” So I kind of went out there and tried that, and that was kind of an attempt at something to, it could have failed or not worked, but sure enough, it worked and the opportunity came again.

我当时想，“哦，我记得这些当地人告诉我他们过去常常在某些区域和东西中建造这些巨大的栅栏和漏斗游戏。”我当时想，“伙计，这热量很大，但我现在必须再次做到这一点。”所以我就出去尝试了一下，这是一种尝试，它可能会失败或不起作用，但果然，它起作用了，机会又来了。

06:09 The moose came wandering along and I was able to get it.

驼鹿走过来，我抓住了它。

But being able to take failure the sooner you can, the better.

但越早能够接受失败越好。

Accept it and then learn from it, it is kind of a muscle you have to exercise a little bit.

接受它，然后从中学习，这是一种你必须锻炼一下的肌肉。

Well, it’s interesting because in this case, the cost of failure is like you’re not going to be able to eat.

嗯，这很有趣，因为在这种情况下，失败的代价就像你无法吃饭一样。

Yeah, that was really interesting.

是的，那真的很有趣。

06:27 I mean, the most interesting thing about that show was how high the stakes felt because it didn’t feel…

我的意思是，那个节目最有趣的事情是感觉赌注有多高，因为它感觉不到……

You didn’t tell yourself you’re on a show, at least I didn’t.

你没有告诉自己你在表演，至少我没有。

You just felt like you’re going to starve to death if you don’t make this happen.

你只是觉得如果你不做到这一点，你就会饿死。

And so the stakes felt so high, and it was an interesting thing to tap into because, I mean, so many of our ancestors probably all just dealt with that on a regular basis, but it’s something that with all the modern amenities and such, and food security that we don’t deal with.

因此，风险如此之高，这是一件有趣的事情，因为，我的意思是，我们的许多祖先可能都只是定期处理这个问题，但这是我们不处理的所有现代设施等以及粮食安全的问题。

And it was interesting to tap into what a kind of peak mental experience that is when you really, really need something to survive, and then it happens.

当你真的非常需要某种东西来生存时，然后它就发生了，这是一种什么样的巅峰心理体验，这很有趣。

You can’t imagine, I mean, that’s what all our dopamine and receptors are tuned for that experience in particular.

我的意思是，你无法想象，这就是我们所有的多巴胺和受体专门针对这种体验进行调整的原因。

So yeah, it was pretty awesome.

是的，这真是太棒了。

But the pressure felt very on.

但压力感觉很大。

I always felt the pressure of providing or starving.

我总是感受到供给或挨饿的压力。

And then there’s the situation when you left the ladder up and you needed fat, and what is it?

还有一种情况，当你把梯子放在上面时，你需要脂肪，那是什么？

07:29 Wolverine need some of the fat.

金刚狼需要一些脂肪。

Right, yeah.

对，是的。

07:37 Well, it was…

嗯，那是……

When I got the moose, I was so happy.

当我拿到驼鹿的时候，我很高兴。

The most joy, I could almost experience, max, maxed out, but I didn’t think I won at that point.

最大的快乐，我几乎可以体验到，最大，最大，但我不认为我赢了。

I never thought like, “Oh, that’s my ticket to victory.” I thought, “Holy crap, it’s going to be me against somebody else that gets a moose now, and we’re going to be here six, eight months.

我从来没有想过，“哦，这是我胜利的门票。”我想，“天哪，现在我要对抗其他拥有驼鹿的人，而我们将在这里待六、八个月。

Who knows how long?

谁知道要多久？

And so, I can’t be here six, eight months and still lose.

所以，我不能在这里六、八个月仍然失败。

So I’ve got to outproduce somebody else with a moose.” So I had all that in my head, and I already was of course pretty thin.

所以我必须在驼鹿方面超越其他人。”所以我脑子里已经有了这一切，当然我已经很瘦了。

And so, I was just like, “Man, if somebody else gets a moose, I’m still going to be behind.

所以，我就想，“伙计，如果其他人得到一头驼鹿，我仍然会落后。

“And so everything felt precious to me, and I had found a plastic jug, and I put a whole bunch of the moose’s fat in this plastic jug and set it up on a little shelf.

“所以一切对我来说都很珍贵，我找到了一个塑料罐，我把一大堆驼鹿的脂肪放进这个塑料罐里，然后把它放在一个小架子上。

08:25 And I thought, “You know what?

我想：“你知道吗？

If a bear comes, I’ll probably hear it and I’ll come out and be able to shoot it.” So I went to sleep and I woke up the next morning, I went out and I was like, “Where’s that jug?” And then I was like, “Wait a second.

如果熊来了，我可能会听到它，然后我就会出来射杀它。”所以我就去睡觉了，第二天早上醒来，我出去了，我想，“那个罐子在哪里？”然后我说：“等一下。

What are all these prints?” And I started looking around and it took a second to dawn on me because I haven’t interacted with wolverines very often in life.

这些印记是什么？”我开始环顾四周，过了一会儿我才恍然大悟，因为我在生活中并没有经常与狼獾互动。

And I was like, “Oh, those are wolverine tracks.” And he was just so much sneakier than a bear would’ve been or something.

我当时想，“哦，那些是狼獾的足迹。”而且他比熊之类的东西还要狡猾得多。

So it kind of surprised me, and he took off with that jug of fat.

这让我有点惊讶，他带着那罐脂肪走了。

And so, then I went from feeling pretty good about myself to now I’m losing again against whoever this other person is with a moose.

所以，然后我从自我感觉良好变成现在我再次输给了另一个带着驼鹿的人。

So again, kind of the pressure came back to, “Oh, no, I got to produce again.” It wasn’t the end of the world.

所以，压力又回来了，“哦，不，我必须再次制作。”这不是世界末日。

And I think they may have exaggerated a little bit how little fat I had left.

我认为他们可能有点夸大了我只剩下的脂肪了。

09:14 I still had…

我还有……

A moose has a lot of fat, but it did make me feel like I was at a disadvantage again.

驼鹿的脂肪很多，但确实让我感觉自己又处于劣势了。

And so, yeah, that was pretty intense because those wolverines, they’re bold little animals and he was basically saying, “No, this is my moose.” And I had to counter his claims.

所以，是的，那是相当激烈的，因为那些狼獾，它们是大胆的小动物，他基本上是在说，“不，这是我的驼鹿。”我不得不反驳他的说法。

Well, yeah, they’re really, really smart.

嗯，是的，他们真的非常非常聪明。

09:34 They figure out a way to get to places really effectively.

他们找到了一种真正有效地到达目的地的方法。

Wolverines are fascinating in that way.

狼獾在这方面很迷人。

So, let’s go to that happy moment, the moose.

那么，让我们回到那个快乐的时刻，驼鹿。

You are the first and one of the only contestants to have ever killed a moose on the show, a big game animal, with a bow and arrow.

您是第一个也是唯一一个在节目中用弓箭杀死驼鹿（一种大型动物）的参赛者之一。

So this is day 20, so can you take me through the kill?

现在是第 20 天了，你能带我经历一下杀戮吗？

Yeah.

是的。

09:59 So I had missed one, and I just decided I’m not here to starve, I’m here to try to become sustainable.

所以我错过了一个，我只是决定我来这里不是为了挨饿，我来这里是为了努力变得可持续。

So I was like, “I don’t care if it’s a risk, I’m going to build that fence.” I built it.

所以我想，“我不在乎这是否有风险，我要建造那道栅栏。”我建造了它。

I would just pick berries and call moose every day.

我每天都会采摘浆果并叫驼鹿。

And it was actually really pleasant, just sit in a berry patch and call moose.

事实上，坐在浆果地里呼唤驼鹿真的很令人愉快。

But then I also had this whole trap and snare line set out everywhere.

但后来我也把整个陷阱和圈套线设置在各处。

So I had all these…

所以我拥有了所有这些……

I was getting rabbits, and when I was actually taking a rabbit out of a snare when I heard a clank because I had set up kind of an alarm system with string and cans.

我正在抓兔子，当我实际上把兔子从陷阱中救出来时，我听到了叮当声，因为我用绳子和罐子设置了一种警报系统。

So…

所以……

It’s a brilliant idea.

这是一个绝妙的主意。

Yeah.

是的。

10:39 Another thing that could have not worked, but it worked and it came through, and I was like, “Oh,” I heard the cans clink.

另一件本来可能不起作用的事情，但它起作用了，而且成功了，我当时想，“哦，”我听到罐子叮当作响。

And I was like, “No way.” And so I ran over, I didn’t know what it was exactly, but something was coming along the fence.

我当时想，“不可能。”于是我跑过去，我不知道到底是什么，但有东西沿着栅栏过来。

And I ran over and jumped in the bush next to the funneled exit on the fence.

我跑过去，跳进栅栏漏斗形出口旁边的灌木丛中。

And sure enough, the big moose came running up and your heart gets pounding like crazy.

果然，大驼鹿跑了过来，你的心疯狂地跳动。

You’re just like, “No way.

你就像，“不可能。

No way.” I probably could have waited a little longer and had a perfect broadside shot, but I took the shot when he was pretty close, like 24 yards, but he was quartering towards me, which makes it a little harder to make a perfect kill shot.

没办法。”我本来可以再等一会儿，然后进行完美的侧射，但我是在他非常接近（比如 24 码）时开枪的，但他正向我这边射击，这使得完美的击杀变得有点困难。

And so, I hit it and it took off running, and I just thought, I was super excited.

所以，我击中了它，它就开始跑了，我只是想，我非常兴奋。

11:25 I couldn’t believe I actually, I was like, “Oh my gosh, I got the moose.

我简直不敢相信我真的，我当时想，“天哪，我得到了驼鹿。

I think that was a really good shot.” You get all excited, but then it plays back in your head.

我认为那是一次非常好的射门。”你变得很兴奋，但随后它又在你的脑海中回放。

And particularly when you’re first learning to hunt, there’s always an animal that gets away and you make a bad decision or not a great shot or something, and it’s just part of it.

尤其是当你第一次学习狩猎时，总会有动物逃跑，你会做出错误的决定，或者没有击中好球或其他什么，这只是其中的一部分。

And so, of course you’re like, “I’m not going to be satisfied until I see this thing.” So I followed the blood trail a little while and I saw some bubbly blood, which meant it was hitting the lungs, which meant it’s not going to live.

所以，你当然会说，“在我看到这个东西之前我不会满意。”于是我顺着血迹走了一会儿，看到了一些起泡的血，这意味着它已经到达了肺部，这意味着它活不下去了。

You’ll get it, as long as you don’t mess it up.

只要你不搞砸，你就会得到它。

And so I went back to my shelter and waited an hour.

于是我回到避难所等了一个小时。

I skinned that rabbit that had caught and then super nervous the slowest hour ever, ever.

我剥了那只被抓住的兔子的皮，然后在有史以来最慢的一个小时里超级紧张。

12:12 And then I followed it along, ended up losing the blood trail.

然后我就跟着它走，最终失去了血迹。

I was like, “No, no.” And then I was like, “Well, if there’s no blood, I’m just going to follow the path that I would go if I was a moose, the least resistance through the woods.” So I followed kind of along the shore there, and sure enough, I saw him up there and I was like, “Oh, I was so excited.” He laid down, but he hadn’t died yet.

我当时想，“不，不。”然后我想，“好吧，如果没有血，我就会沿着我是驼鹿时会走的路，穿过树林，阻力最小。”所以我沿着海岸跟着去，果然，我看到他在那里，我当时想，“哦，我太兴奋了。”他躺下了，但他还没有死。

And so, he just sat there and he would stand up and I would just like, “No, no, no, no.” And he would lay back down, I’d be like, “Yes.” And then he would stand up, and it was like that for a couple hours it took him.

所以，他只是坐在那里，然后站起来，我只想说：“不，不，不，不。”他会躺下来，我会说：“是的。”然后他会站起来，就这样花了几个小时。

And then finally at one point, and a lot of people have asked, “Why wouldn’t you go finish it off?” So, when an animal like that gets hit, it had no idea what hit it.

最后，很多人问：“你为什么不去完成它呢？”所以，当这样的动物被击中时，它不知道是什么击中了它。

Just all of a sudden it’s like, “Ah,” something got it, it ran off and it lays down and it’s actually fairly calm and it doesn’t really know what’s going on.

突然之间，就像是“啊”，有什么东西抓住了，它跑开了，躺了下来，它实际上相当平静，它并不真正知道发生了什么事。

13:08 And if you can leave it in that state, it’ll kind of just bleed out and as peacefully as possible.

如果你能让它保持这种状态，它就会尽可能平静地流血。

If you go chase after it, that’s when you lose an animal because as soon as it knows it’s being hunted, it gets panicked, adrenaline, and it can just run and run and run, and you’ll never find it.

如果你去追它，那就是你失去了一只动物，因为一旦它知道自己被猎杀，它就会惊慌失措，肾上腺素激增，它只能跑啊跑啊跑，但你永远找不到它。

So I didn’t want it to see me.

所以我不想让它看到我。

I knew if I tried to get it with another arrow, there’s a chance I could have finished it off, but there’s also a not bad chance that it would see me, take off, or even attack, because moose can be a little dangerous.

我知道如果我尝试用另一支箭射中它，我有可能已经完成了它，但也有一个不错的机会它会看到我，起飞，甚至攻击，因为驼鹿可能有点危险。

And so, I just chose to wait it out, and at one point it stood up and fell over and I could tell it had died.

所以，我只是选择等待它，有一次它站起来又摔倒了，我可以看出它已经死了。

And walked over, you actually touch it and you’re just like, “Whoa.

走过去，你真的触摸了它，你就像，“哇。

No way.”

没办法。”

13:52 That whole burden of weeks of, “You’re going to starve, you’re going to starve.” And it got rid of that demon.

几周来的全部负担是“你会挨饿的，你会挨饿的。”它摆脱了那个恶魔。

To be honest, it’s one of the happiest moments of my life.

老实说，这是我一生中最幸福的时刻之一。

It’s really hard to replicate that joy because it was just so real, so directly connected to your needs.

这种快乐真的很难复制，因为它是如此真实，与你的需求直接相关。

It’s all so simple.

一切就是这么简单。

It was a peak experience for sure.

这无疑是一次巅峰体验。

And were you worried that it would take many more hours and it would take it into the night?

您是否担心这会花费更多时间并且会持续到深夜？

Yeah, I was.

是的，我是。

14:18 Until you actually have your hands on it, I was worried the whole time.

在你真正接触到它之前，我一直很担心。

It’s a pretty nerve wracking period there between when you get it and when you actually recover the animal, get your hands on it.

从你得到它到你真正找到这只动物并拿到手之间，这是一个非常令人紧张的时期。

So, it took longer than I wanted, but I finally got it.

所以，花了比我想要的时间更长的时间，但我终于得到了。

Can you actually speak to the kill shot itself, just for people who don’t hunt?

你真的能谈谈杀戮射击本身吗？只针对那些不打猎的人？

14:34 What it takes to stay calm, to not freak out too much, to wait, but not wait too long?

怎样才能保持冷静，不惊慌失措，等待，但又不等太久？

Yeah.

是的。

14:46 Yeah.

是的。

I mean, another thing about hunting is that for every animal, you probably don’t get nine or 10 that just turned the wrong way when you were drawn back or went away behind a tree or you never had a clean shot or whatever it is.

我的意思是，关于狩猎的另一件事是，对于每一种动物，你可能不会遇到九或十只动物，当你被拉回来或走到树后面，或者你从来没有干净利落地射击或其他什么的时候，你就转向错误的方向。

And so, every time you can see a moment coming, your heart really starts beating and you have to breathe through it.

因此，每当你看到某个时刻即将到来时，你的心脏就会真正开始跳动，你必须通过它来呼吸。

I can almost feel the nervousness of it.

我几乎能感觉到它的紧张。

And then, you just try to stay calm.

然后，你就试着保持冷静。

Whatever you do, just try to stay calm, wait for it to come up, draw back.

无论你做什么，只要保持冷静，等待它出现，然后退缩。

You’ve practiced shooting a lot, so you have kind of a technique.

你已经练习了很多射击，所以你有一定的技术。

I am going to go back, touch my face, draw my elbow tight, and then the arrow’s going to let loose.

我要回去，摸摸我的脸，拉紧我的肘部，然后箭就会松开。

So muscle memory, mostly.

所以主要是肌肉记忆。

It’s kind of muscle memory.

这是一种肌肉记忆。

15:33 You have a little trigger like, draw that elbow tight, and then it happens, and then you just watch the arrow and see where it goes.

你有一个小扳机，比如，拉紧肘部，然后事情就会发生，然后你只需观察箭头，看看它去哪里。

Now with the animal, you try to do it ethically.

现在，对于动物，你要尝试合乎道德地去做。

That is, make as good of a shot as you can, make sure it is either hit in the heart or both lungs.

也就是说，尽可能击中目标，确保击中心脏或双肺。

And when that happens, it’s a pretty quick death, which is, death is a part of life, but honestly, for a wild animal, that’s probably the best way to go they could have.

当这种情况发生时，死亡是相当快的，也就是说，死亡是生命的一部分，但老实说，对于野生动物来说，这可能是它们能拥有的最好的出路。

16:03 Now, when an animal’s kind of walking towards you, if it’s walking towards you but not directly towards you, that’s what you call quartering towards you.

现在，当一只动物朝你走来时，如果它朝你走来，但不是直接朝你走来，那就是你所谓的向你走来。

And you can picture, it’s actually pretty difficult to hit both lungs because the shoulder blade and all that bone is in the way.

你可以想象，实际上很难击中双肺，因为肩胛骨和所有骨头都挡住了。

So you have to make a perfect shot to get them both.

所以你必须做出完美的射击才能同时获得它们。

And to be honest, when I took my shot, I was a couple inches or few inches, and so it went through the first lung and then it sunk the arrow all the way into the moose, but it allowed that second lung to stay breathing, which meant the moose stayed alive longer.

老实说，当我开枪时，我距离几英寸或几英寸，所以它穿过第一个肺部，然后将箭头一直沉入驼鹿体内，但它允许第二个肺部保持呼吸，这意味着驼鹿活得更久。

What’s your relationship with the animal in the situation like that?

在这种情况下，你和动物的关系如何？

16:39 You said death is a part of life.

你说死亡是生命的一部分。

Yeah, that’s an interesting thought because no matter what your relationship to, however you choose to go through life, whatever you eat, whatever you do, death is a part of life.

是的，这是一个有趣的想法，因为无论你与什么关系，无论你选择如何度过一生，无论你吃什么，无论你做什么，死亡都是生命的一部分。

16:44 Every animal that’s out there is living off of a dead, even plants, we’re all part of this ecosystem.

那里的每一种动物都靠死人为生，甚至植物也是如此，我们都是这个生态系统的一部分。

I think it’s really easy in a, particularly in an urban environment, but anywhere to think that we’re separate from the ecosystem, but we are very much a part of it, whether it be farming requires all this habitat to be turned into growing soybeans and da-da-da.

我认为这很容易，特别是在城市环境中，但在任何地方都认为我们与生态系统是分离的，但我们是生态系统的一部分，无论是农业还是需要将所有这些栖息地变成种植大豆和哒哒哒。

And when you get the plows and the combines, you’re losing all kinds of different animals and all kind of potential habitat.

当你拥有犁和联合收割机时，你就会失去各种不同的动物和各种潜在的栖息地。

So, it’s not cost-free.

所以，这并不是没有成本的。

And so when you realize that, then you want to produce the food and the things you need in an ethical manner.

因此，当您意识到这一点时，您就会希望以合乎道德的方式生产食物和您需要的东西。

So, for me, hunting plays a really major role in that.

所以，对我来说，狩猎在其中起着非常重要的作用。

17:47 I literally know how many a animals year it takes to feed my family and myself.

我确实知道一年需要多少只动物才能养活我的家人和我自己。

I actually know the exact number and I know what the cost of that is, and I’m aware of it because I’m out in the woods and I see these beautiful elk and moose, and I really love the species, love the animals, but there is a fact that one of those individuals is going to have to feed me.

我实际上知道确切的数字，我知道这样做的成本是多少，我知道这一点是因为我在树林里看到了这些美丽的麋鹿和驼鹿，我真的很喜欢这个物种，喜欢这些动物，但事实上，其中一个人必须养活我。

And particularly on Alone, it was very heightened, that experience.

尤其是在《孤独》中，这种体验非常强烈。

So I shot that one animal and I was so, so thankful that I wanted to give that big guy a hug and like, “Hey, sorry, it was you, but had to be somebody.”

所以我射杀了那只动物，我非常非常感激，我想给那个大家伙一个拥抱，然后说：“嘿，对不起，是你，但必须是某个人。”

Yeah, there’s that picture of you just almost hugging it.

是的，有一张你几乎拥抱它的照片。

Right?

正确的？

18:31 Totally.

完全。

And you can also think about it, the calories, the protein, the fat, all of that, that comes from that, that will feed you.

你也可以想一想，卡路里、蛋白质、脂肪，所有这些，都来自这些，它们会养活你。

Right.

正确的。

18:40 You’re so grateful for it.

你对此非常感激。

The gratitude is definitely there.

感激之情肯定是存在的。

What about the bow and arrow perspective?

那么弓箭的视角呢？

Well, when you hunt with a bow, you just get so much more up close to the animals.

嗯，当你用弓狩猎时，你可以更近距离地接触动物。

18:48 You can’t just get it from 600 yards away, you actually have to sneak in within 30 or so yards.

你不能只是从 600 码外得到它，你实际上必须潜入 30 码左右的范围内。

And when you do that, the experiences you have are just, they’re way more dragged out.

当你这样做时，你的经历就会变得更加拖沓。

So your heart’s beating longer, you have to control your nerves longer.

所以你的心脏跳动的时间更长，你必须更长时间地控制你的神经。

More often than not, it doesn’t go your way and the thing gets away and you’ve been hiking around in the woods for a week and then your opportunity arises and floats away.

通常情况下，事情不会如你所愿，事情会消失，你已经在树林里徒步旅行了一个星期，然后你的机会出现了，又消失了。

No, but at the same time, that’s the only time when you’ll really have those interactions with the animals where you got this bugling bull tearing at the trees right in front of you and other cow and elk and animals running around.

不，但与此同时，这是你真正与动物进行互动的唯一一次，你会看到一头牛在你面前撕扯树木，其他牛、麋鹿和动物在你周围奔跑。

You end up having really, I don’t know if I say intimate experiences with the animal, just because you’re in it, you’re kind of in its world, you’re playing its game.

你最终会真的，我不知道我是否说与动物有亲密的经历，只是因为你在其中，你在它的世界里，你在玩它的游戏。

19:52 It has its senses to defend itself, and you have your wit to try to get over those.

它有自己的感官来保护自己，而你有智慧来克服这些。

And it really becomes, it’s not easy.

事实证明，这并不容易。

It becomes kind of that chess game.

它变得有点像国际象棋游戏。

And, those prey animals are always tuned in.

而且，那些被捕食的动物总是会关注的。

It’s, slightest stick, they’re looking for wolves or for whatever it is.

毫无疑问，他们正在寻找狼或其他任何东西。

So, there’s something really pure and fun about it.

所以，它确实有一些纯粹和有趣的东西。

I will say there’s an aspect that is fun.

我会说有一个方面很有趣。

There’s no denying it.

无可否认。

It’s like how people have been hunting forever.

就像人们一直在狩猎一样。

And I think it speaks to that part of us somehow.

我认为它以某种方式讲述了我们的那一部分。

And I think bow hunting is probably the most pure form of it, and that you get those experiences more often than with a rifle.

我认为弓箭狩猎可能是最纯粹的形式，而且你比使用步枪更容易获得这些体验。

So, I don’t know.

所以，我不知道。

I enjoy it a lot.

我很喜欢它。

And the way they do regulations and such kind of the best times to hunt are usually allowed for bow because they’re trying to keep it fair for the animal and such.

他们制定规定的方式和最佳狩猎时间通常允许使用弓箭，因为他们试图对动物等保持公平。

So…

所以……

So the distance, the close distance makes you more in touch with sort of the natural way of the predator and prey, and you just-

所以距离，近距离让你更接近捕食者和猎物的自然方式，而你只是——

Yeah, yeah.

是啊，是啊。

You’re one of the predators where you have to be clever, you have to be quiet, you have to be calm, you have to, all of that.

你是掠夺者之一，你必须聪明，你必须安静，你必须冷静，你必须，所有这一切。

21:05 And the full challenge and the luck involved in catching that.

抓住这个机会需要充分的挑战和运气。

The same thing as the predators do.

和掠夺者做的事是一样的。

Exactly how many times do they snap a stick and watch them run off, and, “Darn, my stock was failed.” So yeah, you’re in that ecosystem.

到底有多少次，他们折断一根棍子，看着他们跑开，然后说：“该死，我的股票失败了。”是的，你就在那个生态系统中。

How’d you learn to shoot the bow?

你是怎么学会射弓的？

So yeah, I didn’t grow up hunting.

所以是的，我并不是打猎长大的。

21:33 I grew up in an area that a lot of people hunted, but my dad wasn’t really into it.

我在一个很多人狩猎的地区长大，但我父亲并不真正感兴趣。

And so I never got into it until I lived in Russia with the natives.

所以直到我和当地人一起住在俄罗斯之后我才开始接触它。

It was just such a part of everything we did and a part of our life that when I came back, I got a bow and I started doing archery in Virginia.

这是我们所做的一切和生活的一部分，当我回来时，我得到了一把弓，开始在弗吉尼亚州射箭。

It was a pretty easy way to hunt because the deer were overpopulated and you could get these urban archery permits.

这是一种非常简单的狩猎方式，因为鹿的数量过多，而且你可以获得这些城市射箭许可证。

So you go out and every couple of days you’d have an opportunity to shoot a deer that they needed population control.

所以你出去，每隔几天你就有机会射杀一只需要控制数量的鹿。

And so, there were a lot of them, and it gave you a lot of opportunities to learn quickly.

所以，它们有很多，这给了你很多快速学习的机会。

So that’s what got me into it, and then I found I really enjoyed it.

这就是我投入其中的原因，然后我发现我真的很喜欢它。

Do you practice with the target also or just practice out?

你也练习目标还是只是练习？

Oh, no, I would definitely practice with a target a lot.

哦，不，我肯定会经常带着目标练习。

22:18 Again, you kind of have an obligation to do your best because you don’t want to be flinging arrows into the leg of an animal.

再说一次，你有义务尽力而为，因为你不想把箭射进动物的腿。

And it’s a cool way, honestly, to provide quality meat for the family.

老实说，这是为家人提供优质肉类的一种很酷的方式。

It’s all raised naturally and wild and free until you bring it home into the freezer.

它们都是自然、野生、自由生长的，直到你把它带回家放进冰箱。

So…

所以……

So if we step back, what are the 10 items you brought and what’s actually the challenge of figuring out which items to bring?

那么，如果我们退后一步，您带了哪些 10 件物品？弄清楚要带哪些物品实际上面临的挑战是什么？

Yeah.

是的。

22:44 The challenge is that you don’t exactly know what your site’s opportunities are going to be.

挑战在于您并不确切知道您网站的机会是什么。

So, you don’t really know, should I bring a fishing net?

所以，你真的不知道，我应该带渔网吗？

Am I going to even have a spot to net or not?

我是否还有地方可以上网？

And things like that.

诸如此类的事情。

I brought an ax, a saw, a Leatherman wave, ferro rod is like, makes sparks to start a fire, a frying pan, a sleeping bag, a fishing kit, a bow and arrow, trapping wire, and paracord.

我带了一把斧子、一把锯子、一把莱瑟曼波、铁棒之类的，会产生火花生火、一个煎锅、一个睡袋、一套钓鱼工具、弓箭、诱捕线和伞绳。

And so, those are my 10 items.

这就是我的 10 件物品。

Is there any regrets, any-

有没有什么遗憾，有什么——

No major regrets.

没有什么大的遗憾。

23:22 I took the saw kind of, I thought it would be more of a calorie saver, then I didn’t really need it.

我拿了锯子，我认为它会更多地节省卡路里，然后我真的不需要它。

In hindsight, if I was doing season seven instead of six and got to watch, I would’ve taken the net because I just planned to make a net, but I would’ve rather just had two nets, brought one and left the saw.

事后看来，如果我正在做第七季而不是第六季并观看，我会带上网，因为我只是计划制作一个网，但我宁愿只拥有两个网，带一个并留下锯子。

Because in the northern woods in particular, every tree is the size of your arm or leg.

因为特别是在北方的树林里，每棵树都有你的手臂或腿那么大。

You can chop it down with an ax in a-

你可以用斧头把它砍下来-

That’s nice.

太好了。

…

……

23:50 couple swings.

情侣秋千。

Yeah, you don’t really need the saw.

是的，你真的不需要锯子。

And so, it was handy at times and useful, but I think it was my…

所以，它有时很方便而且很有用，但我认为这是我的……

If I had to do nine items, that would’ve been just fine without the saw.

如果我必须做九件事情，没有锯子就可以了。

So two nets would just expand your-

所以两个网只会扩展你的-

Food gathering potentially.

潜在的食物收集。

And then, in terms of trapping, you were okay with just the little you brought?

然后，就诱捕而言，你只带一点东西就可以了吗？

The snare wire was good.

军鼓线很好。

24:15 I ran some, I put out…

我跑了一些，我把…

I used all my snare wire.

我用了所有的军鼓线。

I ran trap line, which is just a series of traps through the woods and brush every place you see a sign, put a snare, put a little mark on the tree so I knew where that snare was and just make these paths through the woods.

我跑了陷阱线，这只是穿过树林的一系列陷阱，然后刷过你看到标志的每个地方，放置一个圈套，在树上做一个小标记，这样我就知道那个圈套在哪里，然后在树林中制作这些路径。

And I put out, I don’t know how many, 150, 200 snares.

我放了，我不知道有多少，150个，200个小鼓。

So every day I’d get a rabbit or two out of them.

所以每天我都会从它们身上抓到一两只兔子。

And then, so I had a lot of rabbits, but once I got the moose, I actually took all those snares down because I didn’t want to catch anything needlessly.

然后，我养了很多兔子，但一旦我得到了驼鹿，我实际上就把所有那些陷阱都拿下来了，因为我不想捕捉任何不必要的东西。

And, you come to find out you can’t live off of rabbits, man cannot live off rabbit alone it turns out.

而且，你会发现你不能靠兔子生活，事实证明，人不能单独靠兔子生活。

So you set up a huge number of traps.

所以你设置了大量的陷阱。

24:57 You were also fishing and then always on the lookout for moose.

你还钓鱼，然后一直在寻找驼鹿。

Yeah.

是的。

So in terms of survival, if you were to do it over again, over and over and over and over, how do you maximize your chance of having enough food to survive for a long time?

因此，就生存而言，如果你要一遍又一遍、一遍又一遍、一遍又一遍，你如何最大限度地获得足够的食物来长期生存？

You have to be really adaptable because everything’s going to, it’s always going to look different, your situation, your location.

你必须具有真正的适应能力，因为一切都会发生变化，你的情况、你的位置总是会看起来不同。

25:23 I actually had what I thought was a pretty good plan going into Alone, and the location didn’t allow for what I thought it would.

事实上，我有一个我认为非常好的计划去单独，但地点不允许我想象它会发生的事情。

What was the plan?

计划是什么？

Well, I thought I would just catch a bunch of fish because I’m on a really good fishing lake.

好吧，我以为我会钓到一堆鱼，因为我在一个非常适合钓鱼的湖上。

25:38 I catch a whole bunch of fish and let them rot for a little while and then just drag them all through the woods into a big pile and then hunt a bear on that big fish pile.

我抓了一大堆鱼，让它们腐烂一会儿，然后把它们拖到树林里，堆成一大堆，然后在那个大鱼堆上猎杀一只熊。

That was the plan, and I thought…

这就是计划，我想……

But when I got there for one, I had a hard time catching fish off the bat, they didn’t come like I was hoping.

但当我到达那里时，我很难立即抓到鱼，它们并没有像我希望的那样来。

And then for two, it had burned prior, so there were no berries.

然后对于两个人来说，它之前已经烧焦了，所以没有浆果。

And so, there were very few berries, which meant there weren’t grouse, there weren’t bear.

因此，浆果很少，这意味着没有松鸡，也没有熊。

They had all gone to other places where the berries were.

他们都去了其他有浆果的地方。

And so, what I had grown accustomed to relying on in Siberia wasn’t there.

所以，我在西伯利亚所习惯的依赖并不存在。

So in Russia, which was a similar environment, it was just grouse and berries and fish, and grouse and berries and fish.

因此，在环境相似的俄罗斯，只有松鸡、浆果和鱼，松鸡、浆果和鱼。

And then occasionally, you get a moose or something.

然后偶尔，你会得到一只驼鹿什么的。

But I had to reassess, which was part of me being grumpy at the start like, “This place sucks.”

但我必须重新评估，这也是我一开始脾气暴躁的一部分，比如“这个地方很糟糕。”

26:39 And then, once I reassessed, and right away, I saw that there were moose tracks and such.

然后，当我重新评估时，我立即看到有驼鹿的足迹等。

So.

所以。

I just started to plan for that.

我刚刚开始为此做计划。

I moved my camp into an area that was as removed as I could be from where all the action is, where the tracks were, so that I wasn’t disturbing animal patterns.

我把我的营地搬到了一个尽可能远离所有活动的地方，远离足迹的地方，这样我就不会打扰动物的模式。

I made sure the wind, the predominant wind was blowing out my scent to sea or to the water.

我确保风，主要的风将我的气味吹向大海或水面。

And then really, to be honest, if you want to actually survive somewhere is different than Alone, but you do have to be active and you’re not going to live…

然后说真的，说实话，如果你想在某个地方生存下来，这与独自生存是不同的，但你必须保持活跃，而且你不会活下去……

You’re not going to be sustainable by starving it out.

如果你饿死它，你就无法维持下去。

You have to unlock the key that is sustainability.

你必须打开可持续发展的钥匙。

27:23 And I think there’s a lot of areas that still have that potential, but you have to figure out what it is.

我认为有很多领域仍然具有这种潜力，但你必须弄清楚它是什么。

It’s usually going to be a combination of fishing, trapping, and then hunting.

它通常是钓鱼、诱捕和狩猎的结合。

And then, once you have the fishing and trapping will get you until you have some success hunting.

然后，一旦你有了钓鱼和诱捕的机会，就会一直帮助你，直到你狩猎成功为止。

And then, that’ll buy you three or four months of time to continue, and to keep hunting again.

然后，这将为你赢得三四个月的时间来继续，并再次继续狩猎。

And you just have to roll off of that.

你只需要摆脱它。

But it depends on where you are, what opportunities are there.

但这取决于你在哪里，有什么机会。

Okay, so that’s the process.

好了，流程就是这样。

27:48 Fishing and trapping until you’re successful hunting.

钓鱼和诱捕，直到狩猎成功。

And then the successful hunt buys you some more time.

成功的狩猎将为你赢得更多时间。

Right, right.

对，对。

You just go year round.

你就全年去吧。

And then you just go year round like that.

然后你就这样全年无休。

27:58 And that’s how people did it forever.

人们就是这样永远这样做的。

The pressure, I noticed it with you got that moose and then you’re happy for a week or so, and then you start to be like, “This is finite.

压力，我注意到你得到了那头驼鹿，然后你高兴了一周左右，然后你开始说，“这是有限的。

I’m going to have to do this again.” And you imagine if you had a family that was going to starve if you weren’t successful this next time.

我将不得不再次这样做。”你想象一下，如果你下次不成功，你的家人就会挨饿。

And there’s just always that pressure.

而且这种压力总是存在的。

It made me really appreciate what people had to deal with.

这让我真正体会到人们必须面对的事情。

Well, in terms of being active, so you have to do stuff all day.

嗯，就活跃而言，所以你必须整天做事。

28:25 So you get up-

于是你起身——

Get up.

起来吧。

…

……

28:31 and planning like, “What am I going to…” In the midst of the frustration, you have to figure out what’s the strategy, how do you put up all the traps?

并计划“我要做什么……”在挫折中，你必须弄清楚策略是什么，如何设置所有陷阱？

Is that a decision, like most people sit at their desk and have a calendar, whatever, are you figuring out?

这是一个决定吗，就像大多数人坐在办公桌前，拿着日历一样，无论如何，你正在弄清楚吗？

One thing about wilderness life in general is it’s remarkably less scheduled than anything we deal with.

一般来说，荒野生活的一件事是，它比我们处理的任何事情都没有计划。

28:47 Schedules are fairly unique to the modern context.

时间表对于现代环境来说是相当独特的。

You’d wake up and you have a confluence of things you want to do, things you need to do, things you should do, and you just kind of tackle them as you see fit as it flows in.

当你醒来时，你会发现一堆你想做的事情、你需要做的事情、你应该做的事情，你只需在它们涌入时按照你认为合适的方式处理它们即可。

And that’s actually one of the things that people really, that I really appreciate about that lifestyle is it really is, you’re kind of in that flow.

这实际上是人们真正的、我真正欣赏的生活方式之一，确实如此，你就处于这种流动中。

And so, I’d wake up and be like, “Maybe I’ll go fishing,” and then I’d wander over and fish, and then I’d be like, “I’m going to go check the trap line,” at every day, if I had five or 10 snares, you’re constantly adding to your productive potential, but nothing’s really scheduled.

所以，我会醒来说，“也许我要去钓鱼，”然后我会闲逛去钓鱼，然后我会说，“我要去检查陷阱线，”每天，如果我有 5 个或 10 个网罗，你会不断增加你的生产潜力，但没有什么是真正计划好的。

You’re just kind of flying by the seat of your pants.

你只是凭感觉行事。

But then there’s a lot of instinct that’s already loaded.

但很多本能已经被加载了。

Oh, there’s so much.

哦，有这么多。

29:45 Yeah,

是的，

There’s just wisdom from all the times you’ve had to do it before that you’re just actually operating a lot on instinct, like you said, where to place the shelter, how hard is that calculation, where to place the shelter?

以前你必须这样做的所有次数中都有智慧，你实际上只是本能地操作，就像你说的，在哪里放置避难所，计算有多难，在哪里放置避难所？

If you’re dropped off and this is all new to you, of course, all those things are going to be things you have to really think through and plan.

如果你下车了，这对你来说是全新的，当然，所有这些事情都将是你必须真正思考和计划的事情。

29:58 When you’re thinking about a shelter, you have to think of, “Oh, here’s a nice flat spot.

当你考虑避难所时，你必须想到，“哦，这是一个不错的平坦地方。

That’s a good place.” But also, “Is there firewood nearby?

那是个好地方。”而且，“附近有木柴吗？

And if I’m going to be here for months, is there enough firewood that I’m not going to be walking half a mile to get a dry piece of wood?

如果我要在这里呆几个月，是否有足够的木柴，以至于我不需要步行半英里去取一块干木头？

Is the water nearby?

附近有水吗？

Is it somewhat open but also protected from the elements?” Sometimes you get a beautiful spot.

它是否有点开放，但也免受自然因素的影响？”有时你会得到一个美丽的地方。

It is great on a calm day, and then the wind comes like.

风平浪静的日子真是太好了，然后风就来了。

And so.

所以。

There’s all these factors even down to taking in what game is doing in the area also, and how that relates to where your shelter is.

所有这些因素甚至还包括了解该地区的游戏情况，以及这与您的避难所所在位置的关系。

You said you have to consider where the action will be, and you want to be away from the action, but close enough to it.

你说你必须考虑行动将在哪里，你想要远离行动，但又足够接近它。

To see it.

去看看它。

30:44 Yeah, you want to be, yeah, right.

是的，你想成为，是的，对的。

And so, ideally, it depends.

因此，理想情况下，这取决于情况。

You’re always going to make give and takes.

你总是要付出和索取。

And one thing with shelters and location selection and stuff, that’s another thing.

避难所和地点选择之类的事情是一回事，那是另一回事。

You just have to trust your ability to adapt in that situation because everybody has a particular…

你只需要相信自己适应这种情况的能力，因为每个人都有特定的……

You got an idea of a shelter you’re going to build, but then you get there and maybe there’s a good cliff that you can incorporate, and then you just become creative.

你有了一个要建造一个避难所的想法，但当你到达那里时，也许有一个很好的悬崖可以合并，然后你就会变得有创造力。

And that’s a really fun process, too, to just allow your creativity to try to flourish in it.

这也是一个非常有趣的过程，让你的创造力在其中蓬勃发展。

What kind of shelters are there?

有哪些类型的避难所？

There’s all kinds of philosophies and shelters, which is fun.

这里有各种各样的哲学和庇护所，这很有趣。

31:16 It’s fun to see people try different things.

看到人们尝试不同的事情很有趣。

Mine was fairly basic for the simple reason that I had lived through winters in Siberia in a teepee.

我的装备相当基本，原因很简单，因为我在西伯利亚的帐篷里度过了冬天。

So I knew I didn’t need anything too robust.

所以我知道我不需要任何太强大的东西。

As long as I had calories, I’d be warm.

只要我有卡路里，我就会感到温暖。

And I wasn’t particularly worried about the cold, but you’ll see.

我并不是特别担心寒冷，但你会看到的。

So I kept my shelter really pretty simple with the idea that I built a simple A-frame type shelter.

所以我让我的庇护所非常简单，我的想法是建造一个简单的 A 形框架型庇护所。

And then, most of my energy is going to be focused on getting calories.

然后，我的大部分精力将集中在获取卡路里上。

And then, of course, there’s always going to be downtime.

当然，总会有停机时间。

And in that downtime, I can tweak, modify, improve my shelter.

在这段休息时间里，我可以调整、修改、改善我的住所。

And that’ll just be a constant process that by the time you’re there a few months, you’ll have all the kinks worked out.

这将是一个持续的过程，当你在那里几个月的时候，你就会解决所有的问题。

It’ll be a really nice little setup.

这将是一个非常好的小设置。

32:03 But you don’t have to start with that necessarily because you got other needs you got to focus on.

但你不一定要从这个开始，因为你还有其他需要关注的需求。

That said, you’ll see a lot of people on Alone that really focus on building a log cabin because they want to be secure or incorporating whatever the earth has around, whether it be rocks or whether it be digging a hole.

也就是说，你会在《孤独》中看到很多人真正专注于建造小木屋，因为他们想要安全或融入地球周围的任何东西，无论是岩石还是挖洞。

And we’ve seen some really cool shelters, and I’m not going to knock it.

我们已经看到了一些非常酷的避难所，我不会拒绝它。

Everybody…

大家…

It is all different strokes for different folks.

对于不同的人来说，这都是不同的笔触。

But my particular idea was to keep it fairly simple, improve it with time, but spend most of my energy…

但我的具体想法是保持它相当简单，随着时间的推移改进它，但花费我的大部分精力......

The shelter, you really need to think about it can’t be smoky because that’ll be miserable, but it is nice to have a fire inside.

避难所，你真的需要考虑它不能冒烟，因为那会很痛苦，但里面有火很好。

So you need to have a fire inside that’s not going to be dangerous, smoke-free, and then also airtight, because you’re never going to have a warm shelter out there because you don’t have seals and things like that, but as long as the air’s not moving through it, you can have a warm enough shelter.

所以你需要在里面有一个不会危险、无烟、而且密封的火，因为你永远不会有一个温暖的避难所，因为你没有密封件和类似的东西，但只要空气不穿过它，你就可以有一个足够温暖的避难所。

With a fire.

用火。

With a fire and dry your socks and stuff.

用火烤干你的袜子和东西。

How do you get the smoke out of the shelter?

如何将烟雾排出避难所？

If you have good clay and mud and rock, you can build yourself a fireplace, which is surprisingly not that hard.

如果你有好的粘土、泥土和岩石，你可以给自己建造一个壁炉，令人惊讶的是，这并不那么难。

33:09 You just-

你只是——

Oh, really?

哦，真的吗？

Yeah, it’s a fun thing to do.

是的，这是一件有趣的事情。

33:15 It works well.

效果很好。

Take a little hole, start stacking rocks around it, make sure there’s opening and it actually works.

挖一个小洞，开始在它周围堆放石头，确保有开口并且它确实有效。

So that’s not as hard as you might think.

所以这并不像你想象的那么难。

For me, where I was, I kind of came up with it as I was there with my A-frame.

对我来说，在我所在的地方，我有点想出了它，就像我带着我的 A 形框架一样。

I hadn’t built an A-frame shelter like that before.

我以前没有建造过这样的 A 形避难所。

And so, when I built it, and then I had put a bunch of tin cans in the ground so that air would get the fire, so it was fed by air, which helps create a draft.

所以，当我建造它时，我在地上放了一堆锡罐，这样空气就能生火，所以它是由空气供给的，这有助于产生气流。

But, I realized in an A-frame, it really doesn’t…

但是，我意识到在 A 形框架中，它真的不......

The smoke doesn’t go out very well.

烟不太好散。

Even if you leave a hole at the top, it collects and billows back down.

即使你在顶部留下一个洞，它也会聚集起来并滚滚向下。

So then I cut some of my tarp and made this, and cut a hole in the…

然后我剪了一些防水布做了这个，然后在……上切了一个洞。

34:00 Cut some of my tarp and made this…

剪下我的一些防水布，做了这个……

and cut a hole in the A-frame, and then I made a hood vent that I could pull down and catch the smoke with.

在 A 形框架上切一个洞，然后我做了一个引擎盖通风口，我可以把它拉下来并用它来捕捉烟雾。

And so, while the fire was going, it would just billow out the hood vent.

因此，当火势蔓延时，它只会从引擎盖通风口喷出。

And then, when it was done burning and was just hot coals, I could close it, seal it up and keep the heat in.

然后，当它燃烧完毕并且只是热煤时，我可以关闭它，将其密封并保持热量。

So, it actually worked pretty well.

所以，它实际上运作得很好。

So, start with something that works and then keep improving it?

那么，从有效的事情开始，然后不断改进它？

Yeah, exactly.

是的，完全正确。

I was wondering, the log cabin, it feels like that’s a thing that takes a huge amount of work before it’ll work?

我就纳闷了，小木屋，感觉好像是要费很大功夫才行的东西吧？

Right.

正确的。

34:31 The difference between a log cabin and a warm log cabin is like an immense amount of work and all the chinking and all the door sealing and the chimney has to be…

小木屋和温暖的小木屋之间的区别就像是大量的工作，所有的缝隙、所有的门密封和烟囱都必须……

Anyway, otherwise it’s just going to be the same ambient temperature as outside.

不管怎样，否则环境温度就和外面一样了。

So, I don’t think a loan is the proper context for a log cabin.

所以，我认为贷款不是小木屋的合适背景。

34:52 I think log cabin is great in as a hunting cabin, if you’re going to have something for years.

我认为如果你想拥有一些东西多年的话，小木屋作为狩猎小屋是很棒的。

But in a three, six-month scenario, I don’t know that it’s worth the calorie expenditure.

但在三、六个月的情况下，我不知道这是否值得消耗卡路里。

And it is a lot of calories.

而且热量很多。

35:04 But that’s an interesting metaphor of just get something that works.

但这是一个有趣的比喻，只是得到有用的东西。

You see a lot of this with companies, like successful companies, they get a prototype, get a system that’s working and improve fast in response to the conditions to environment.

你在公司里看到很多这样的情况，比如成功的公司，他们得到一个原型，得到一个可以运行的系统，并根据环境条件快速改进。

Because it’s constantly changing.

因为它在不断变化。

Yeah.

是的。

35:23 You end up being a lot better if you’re able to learn how to respond quickly versus having a big plan that takes a huge amount of time to accomplish.

如果你能够学会如何快速响应，而不是制定一个需要大量时间才能完成的大计划，那么你最终会做得更好。

That’s interesting.

那很有意思。

Right.

正确的。

35:34 Forcing that through the pipeline, whether or not it fits.

强制其通过管道，无论是否合适。

Can you just speak to the place you were, the Canadian Arctic?

您能谈谈您所在的地方——加拿大北极吗？

35:38 It looked cold.

看起来很冷。

Yeah, we were right near the Arctic Circle.

是的，我们就在北极圈附近。

35:44 I don’t know, it was like 60 kilometers south of the Arctic Circle.

我不知道，好像是在北极圈以南60公里处。

It’s a really cool area, really remote.

这是一个非常酷的地区，非常偏远。

Thousands of little lakes.

数以千计的小湖泊。

When you fly over, you’re just like, “Man, that’s incredible.

当你飞过时，你会说：“伙计，这太不可思议了。

35:57 There must be so many of those lakes that people haven’t been to.” It really was a neat area, really remote.

一定有很多这样的湖泊人们没有去过。”这确实是一个整洁的地区，非常偏僻。

And for the show’s purpose, I think it was perfect because it did have enough game and enough different avenues forward that I think it really did reward activity.

就节目的目的而言，我认为它是完美的，因为它确实有足够的游戏和足够的不同途径，我认为它确实奖励了活动。

But it’s a special place.

但这是一个特别的地方。

It was Dene, there was a tribe that lived there, the Dene people, which interestingly enough, here’s a side note.

那是德内，那里住着一个部落，德内人，有趣的是，这里有一个旁注。

36:23 When I was in Siberia, I floated down this river called the Podkamennaya Tunguska, and you get to this village called Sulamai, and there’s these Ket people they’re called, and there’s only 600 of them left.

当我在西伯利亚的时候，我顺着这条叫通古斯卡河的河漂流而下，到达了这个叫苏拉迈的村庄，那里住着这些被称为科特人的人，现在只剩下 600 人了。

This is in the middle of Siberia, not unlike the Pacific coast, but their language is related to the Dene people.

这里位于西伯利亚中部，与太平洋沿岸没什么不同，但他们的语言与德内人有关。

And so, somehow that connection was there thousands of years ago.

因此，不知何故，这种联系在几千年前就已经存在了。

Super interesting.

超级有趣。

Yeah.

是的。

36:51 So, language travels somehow.

所以，语言以某种方式传播。

Right.

正确的。

36:53 And the remnants stayed back there.

残余物留在了那里。

It’s very interesting to think through history.

回顾历史是非常有趣的。

Within language, it contains a history of a people, and it’s interesting how that evolves over time and how wars tell the story.

在语言中，它包含了一个民族的历史，有趣的是它如何随着时间的推移而演变，以及战争如何讲述故事。

36:59 Language tells the story of conflict and conflict shapes language, and we get the result of that.

语言讲述冲突的故事，冲突塑造语言，我们得到了结果。

Right.

正确的。

37:13 So, fascinating.

所以，令人着迷。

And the barriers that language creates is also the thing that leads to wars and misunderstandings and all this kind of stuff.

语言造成的障碍也是导致战争、误解和所有此类事情的原因。

37:15 It’s a fascinating tension.

这是一种令人着迷的张力。

But it got cold there, right?

但那里很冷，对吗？

It got real cold.

天气真的很冷。

Yeah.

是的。

37:28 I mean, I don’t know.

我的意思是，我不知道。

I didn’t have a thermometer.

我没有温度计。

I imagine it probably got to negative 30 at the most.

我想最多可能会达到负30。

I think it might have gotten…

我想它可能已经……

It would’ve definitely gotten colder had we stayed longer.

如果我们呆得更久的话，天气肯定会变得更冷。

But yeah, to be honest, I never felt cold out there.

但是，说实话，我在外面从来没有感到冷。

37:45 But I had that one pretty dialed in.

但我已经拨通了那个。

And then, once you have calories, you can stay warm, you can stay active, you got to dress warm.

然后，一旦你有了卡路里，你就可以保持温暖，你可以保持活跃，你必须穿得暖和。

There’s a good one.

有一个很好的。

If you’re in the cold, never let yourself get too cold, because what happens is you’ll stop feeling what’s cold and then frostbite and then issues, and then it’s really hard to warm back up.

如果你在寒冷中，永远不要让自己变得太冷，因为发生的情况是你会不再感觉冷，然后冻伤，然后出现问题，然后就很难暖和起来了。

So, it was so annoying.

所以，这真是太烦人了。

38:08 I’d be out going to ice fish or something and then I would just notice that my feet are cold and you’re just like, “Oh, dang it.” I just turn around, go back, start a fire, dry my boots out, make sure my feet are warm, and then go again.

我会出去冰钓什么的，然后我会发现我的脚很冷，你就会说，“哦，该死的。”我只是转身，回去，生火，擦干我的靴子，确保我的脚温暖，然后再出发。

I wouldn’t ignore that.

我不会忽视这一点。

Oh, so you want to be able to feel the cold?

哦，那么你想感受寒冷吗？

Yeah, you want to make sure you’re still feeling things and that you’re not toughen through it.

是的，你要确保自己仍然有感觉，并且不会变得坚强。

38:24 Because you can’t really tough through the cold.

因为你无法真正熬过寒冷。

It’ll just get you.

它只会让你得到。

What’s your relationship with the cold, psychologically, physically?

从心理上、身体上来说，你与寒冷有什么关系？

It’s interesting.

这很有趣。

38:37 Actually, there’s some part of it that really makes you feel alive.

事实上，其中的某些部分确实让你感觉自己还活着。

I imagine sometime in Austin here you go out and it’s hot and sweaty and you’re like, “Ugh.” You get that kind of saps you.

我想象在奥斯汀的某个时候，你出去时，天气又热又出汗，你就会说，“呃。”你会受到这种伤害。

There’s something about that brisk cold that hits your face that you’re like, “Booo.”

当凛冽的寒风袭上你的脸庞时，你会发出“嘘”的感觉。

38:54 It wakes you up.

它叫醒你。

It makes you feel really alive, engaged.

它让你感觉自己真正充满活力、投入其中。

It feels like the margins of air are smaller, so you’re alert and engaged a little more.

感觉空气的边缘变小了，所以你会更加警觉，更加投入。

There is something that’s a little bit life-giving just because you feel on an edge, you’re on this edge, but you have to be alert because even some of the natives I lived with, the lady had face issues because she let her head get cold, when they’re on a snowmobile hat was up too high, that little mistake, and then it just freezes this part of your forehead and then the nerves go and then you got issues.

有一些东西可以赋予生命，只是因为你感觉处于边缘，你处于这个边缘，但你必须保持警惕，因为即使是和我住在一起的一些当地人，那位女士也有面部问题，因为她让她的头变冷，当他们戴上雪地摩托时，帽子戴得太高，这个小错误，然后它只是冻结了你前额的这一部分，然后神经消失，然后你就遇到了问题。

One just hat wasn’t high enough, so you got to be dialed in on stuff.

一顶帽子不够高，所以你必须拨通一些东西。

Well, there’s a psychological element to just…

嗯，有一个心理因素......

39:30 I mean, it’s unpleasant.

我的意思是，这很不愉快。

If I were to think of what kind of unpleasant would I choose, fasting for long periods of time was going without food in a warm environment is way more pleasant than-

如果让我想想，我会选择什么样的不愉快，长时间的禁食，在温暖的环境里不吃东西，比——

Being fed in the cold?

寒冷时喂食？

Yeah, exactly.

是的，完全正确。

39:49 If you were to choose to-

如果你选择——

I’d choose the opposite.

我会选择相反的。

Yeah.

是的。

39:53 Okay.

好的。

Well, there you go.

好吧，就这样吧。

I wonder if that’s…

我想知道那是不是……

I wonder if you’re born with that or if that’s developed maybe your time in Siberia or do you gravitate towards it?

我想知道你是否天生就有这样的特质，或者是你在西伯利亚的时光培养出来的，还是你被它所吸引？

I wonder what that is because I really don’t like survival in the cold.

我想知道那是什么，因为我真的不喜欢在寒冷中生存。

I think a little bit of it is learned.

我觉得还是学到了一点点。

40:07 You almost learned not…

你几乎学会了不...

you learn not to fear it.

你学会不害怕它。

You learn to appreciate it.

你学会欣赏它。

And a big part of that is to be honest, it’s like dressing warm, being in good…

其中很大一部分是说实话，这就像穿得暖和，处于良好的状态......

it’s not like, there’s no secrets to that.

这并不是说，这没有什么秘密。

You just can’t beat the cold.

你就是无法战胜寒冷。

40:27 So, you just need to dress warm, the native, all that fur, all that stuff, and then all of a sudden you have your little refuge, have a nice warm fire going in your teepee, and then I bet you could learn to appreciate it.

所以，你只需要穿得暖和一些，本地人的，所有的毛皮，所有的东西，然后突然间你就有了你的小避难所，在你的帐篷里有一个温暖的火，然后我打赌你可以学会欣赏它。

Yeah, I think some of it is just opening yourself up to the possibility that there’s something enjoyable about it.

是的，我认为其中一些只是让自己敞开心扉，接受其中有一些令人愉快的事情的可能性。

40:41 Here I run in Austin all the time in a hundred-degree heat.

我在奥斯汀一直在一百度的高温下跑步。

And I go out there with a smile on my face and learn to enjoy it.

我脸上带着微笑走出去，并学会享受它。

Oh yeah.

哦，是的。

And so, you just like, I look like you do in the cold.

所以，你只是喜欢，我看起来就像你在寒冷中所做的那样。

40:59 I don’t think I enjoy the heat, but you just allow yourself to enjoy it.

我不认为我喜欢炎热，但你只是让自己享受它。

Yeah.

是的。

41:07 Yeah.

是的。

I do feel that way.

我确实有这样的感觉。

I mean, I don’t mind the heat that much, but I think you could get to the place where you appreciated the cold.

我的意思是，我不太介意炎热，但我认为你可以到达你喜欢寒冷的地方。

It’s probably just a lack of-

可能只是缺少——

Practice.

练习。

It’s scary when you haven’t done it and you don’t know what you’re doing and you go out and you feel cold.

当你还没有做过，你不知道自己在做什么，而你出去却感到寒冷时，这是很可怕的。

41:19 It’s not fun, but I bet you’d enjoy it.

这并不有趣，但我打赌你会喜欢它。

You’ll have to come out sometimes.

有时你必须出来。

A 100%.

100%。

41:29 I mean, you’re right.

我的意思是，你是对的。

It does make you feel alive.

它确实让你感觉还活着。

Maybe that’s a thing that I struggle with is the time passes slower.

也许时间过得越来越慢，这就是我所苦苦挣扎的事情。

It does make you feel alive, you get to feel time.

它确实让你感觉还活着，你能感受到时间。

41:41 But then, the flip side of that is you get to feel every moment and you get to feel alive in every moment.

但另一方面，你可以感受到每一刻，每一刻你都感到活着。

So, it’s both scary when you’re inexperienced and beautiful when you are experienced.

所以，当你缺乏经验时，它既令人恐惧，当你有经验时，它又很美丽。

Were there times when you got hungry?

你有没有感到饥饿的时候？

I got shot a rabbit on day one and I snared a couple rabbits on day two and then more and more as the time went.

第一天我射中了一只兔子，第二天我又捕获了几只兔子，然后随着时间的推移越来越多。

41:57 So, I actually did pretty well on the food front.

所以，我实际上在食物方面做得很好。

The other thing is when you have all those berries around and stuff, you do have an ability to fill your stomach, and so you don’t really notice if you’re getting thinner or if you’re losing weight.

另一件事是，当你周围有所有这些浆果之类的东西时，你确实有能力填饱肚子，所以你不会真正注意到你是否变瘦或体重是否减轻。

42:19 So, I can say on Alone, I was not that hungry.

所以，我可以在《孤独》中说，我并没有那么饿。

I’ve definitely been really hungry in Russia.

我在俄罗斯确实很饿。

There were times when I lost a lot of weight.

有时候我体重减轻了很多。

I lost a lot more weight in Siberia than I did on Alone.

我在西伯利亚减掉的体重比独自一人减掉的体重多得多。

Oh, wow.

哦，哇。

In times of-

在时代-

Okay, we’ll have to talk about it.

好吧，我们得谈谈它。

42:34 So, you caught a fish, you caught a couple?

所以，你钓到了一条鱼，你钓到了几条？

I think I caught 13 or so.

我想我钓到了13个左右。

42:40 They didn’t show a lot of them.

他们没有展示很多。

You caught 13 fish?

你钓了13条鱼吗？

Thirteen of those big fish, dudes.

十三条大鱼，伙计们。

42:45 Well, I caught a couple that were small.

好吧，我抓到了一对很小的。

This is like a meme at this point.

此时这就像一个模因。

Yeah, it was a-

是的，那是一个——

You’re a perfect example of a person who was thriving.

你是一个蓬勃发展的人的完美例子。

I always thought in hindsight, again, when I was out there, I never let myself think you might way, and I just was going to be out there as long as I could and tried to remain pessimistic about it.

我总是事后想，当我在外面的时候，我从来没有让自己认为你可能会这么做，我只是尽可能地呆在那里，并试图对此保持悲观。

42:56 But I remember a thought that I was like, “I wonder if they’re going to be able to make this look hard.” I did have that thought at one point because it went pretty well.

但我记得我当时的想法是，“我想知道他们是否能让这件事看起来很困难。”我曾经一度有过这样的想法，因为一切进展顺利。

43:17 And definitely it was hard psychologically because I didn’t know when it was going to end.

心理上肯定很困难，因为我不知道什么时候会结束。

I thought this could go, like I said, six months, it could go eight months, a year, and then you start to…

我以为这可能会持续，就像我说的，六个月，可能持续八个月，一年，然后你开始……

a two and a three-year-old and you start to weigh in the, “Is it worth it if it goes a year and it’s not worth it if it goes eight months and I still lose?” So, I feel like I had this pressure and it was psychologically difficult for that reason.

一个两岁和一个三岁的孩子，你开始权衡，“如果一年过去了，值得吗？如果八个月了，我仍然输了，那就不值得了？”所以，我觉得我有这种压力，因此心理上很困难。

Physically, it wasn’t too bad.

从身体上来说，还不错。

This is off mic.

这是关闭麦克风的情况。

43:48 We’re talking about Gordon Ryan competing in Jiu-Jitsu.

我们正在谈论戈登·瑞安参加柔术比赛。

And maybe that’s the challenge he also has to face is to make things look hard.

也许这就是他必须面对的挑战，那就是让事情看起来很困难。

Because he’s so dominant in the sport that in terms of the drama and the entertainment of the sport, in this case of survival, it has to be difficult.

因为他在这项运动中占据主导地位，就这项运动的戏剧性和娱乐性而言，在这种生存情况下，它一定很困难。

And I’ll add that for sure though, that it’s the woods, it’s nature.

但我要补充一点，那就是树林，这是自然。

44:12 You never know how it’s going to go.

你永远不知道事情会如何发展。

You know what I mean?

你知道我的意思？

It’s like every time you’re out there, it’s a different scenario.

就像每次你出去时，都会有不同的场景。

So, whatever.

所以，无论如何。

Hallelujah, it went well.

哈利路亚，一切顺利。

So, you won after 77 days.

所以，77 天后你赢了。

44:25 How long do you think you could have lasted?

你认为你还能坚持多久？

When I left, I weighed what I do right now.

当我离开时，我权衡了我现在要做的事情。

44:29 So, I just weighed my normal weight.

所以，我只是称了一下正常体重。

I had a couple hundred pounds of moose.

我有几百磅的驼鹿。

I had at least a hundred pounds of fish.

我至少有一百磅鱼。

I had a pile of rabbits, a wolverine, I had all of this stuff and I hadn’t gotten cold yet.

我有一堆兔子，一只狼獾，我有所有这些东西，但我还没有感冒。

44:49 I just thought, but in my head I thought, “If I get today a 130 or 40, even if someone else has big game, I had a pretty good idea they might quit because it would be long, cold, dark days.” And how miserable is that?

我只是想，但在我的脑海里我想，“如果我今天得到 130 或 40，即使其他人有很大的比赛，我很清楚他们可能会退出，因为这将是漫长、寒冷、黑暗的日子。”那有多悲惨？

Just it’s so boring.

只是实在是太无聊了。

It’s freezing.

天很冷。

And so, I thought the only time I thought I could think about winning is when I got to day 130 or 40.

所以，我认为我唯一能考虑获胜的时候是当我到达第 130 天或第 40 天时。

45:17 And I definitely had that with what I had.

我确实拥有我所拥有的东西。

Now, maybe I would’ve…

现在，也许我会……

I probably would’ve gotten more.

我可能会得到更多。

I had caught that big 20 something pound pike on the last day I was there.

我在那里的最后一天钓到了那条20多磅重的大梭子鱼。

Maybe catch some more of those.

也许还能再抓到一些。

And I don’t know, I don’t know how many calories I had stored, but I had a lot.

我不知道，我不知道我储存了多少卡路里，但我储存了很多。

45:37 And so, how long would that have lasted me assuming I didn’t get anything else?

那么，假设我没有得到其他任何东西，这会持续多久？

It definitely would have…

肯定会有……

I would definitely would’ve reached my goal of a 130 or 40 days.

我肯定会达到 130 或 40 天的目标。

And then, after that I thought we were just going to push into the…

然后，在那之后我想我们只是要推进......

then it’s just to see how much who has what reserves and will go as far as we can.

那么就看谁有多少储备，以及谁会尽可能地走得更远。

And that would get me through January into February.

这将使我度过一月到二月。

And I just thought, “Man, that’s going to be miserable for people.”

我只是想，“伙计，这对人们来说会很痛苦。”

And you were like, “I can last through.”

你说：“我能坚持下去。”

And I knew I could do it.

我知道我能做到。

46:02 Yeah.

是的。

What aspect of that is miserable?

哪方面是悲惨的？

The hardest thing for me would’ve been the boredom because it’s hard to stay busy when it’s all dark out.

对我来说，最困难的事情就是无聊，因为天黑时很难保持忙碌。

46:07 When the ice is three, four foot thick, you can’t fish.

当冰厚三四英尺时，你就不能钓鱼了。

And I just think it would’ve just been really boring.

我只是觉得这真的很无聊。

It would’ve had to been a real Zen master to push through it.

必须是真正的禅师才能突破它。

But because I had experienced it some degree, I knew I could.

但因为我在某种程度上经历过，所以我知道我可以。

46:31 And then, I think things that might, you start thinking about family and this and that in those situations.

然后，我认为，在这种情况下，你可能会开始考虑家庭以及这个和那个。

And I just knew that those…

我只知道那些……

because I had gone to all these trips to Russia for a year at a time, the time context was a little broader for me than I think for some people.

因为我一次去俄罗斯旅行了一年，所以对我来说，时间背景比我想象的对某些人来说要广泛一些。

Because I knew I could be gone for a year and come back, catch up with my loved ones, bring what I got back, whether that’d be psychological, whatever it is, and we’d all enrich each other.

因为我知道我可以离开一年然后回来，与我所爱的人团聚，带回我得到的东西，无论是心理上的，还是什么，我们都会彼此丰富。

46:59 And once it’s in hindsight, that year would’ve been like that, talking about it.

事后看来，那一年就是这样，谈论它。

So, I had that perspective.

所以，我有这样的观点。

And so, I knew I wasn’t going to tap for any other reason other than running out of food someday.

所以，我知道除了有一天食物耗尽之外，我不会因为任何其他原因而敲击。

So, that was my stressor.

所以，这就是我的压力源。

So, you’re able to, given the boredom, given them loneliness, zoom out and accept the passing of time, just let it pass?

那么，考虑到无聊，考虑到孤独，你能够缩小并接受时间的流逝，就让它过去吧？

For me, I’m going to fairly act.

对我来说，我会公平行事。

47:20 I like to be active, and so I would try to think of creative ways to keep my brain busy.

我喜欢活跃，所以我会尝试想一些创造性的方法来让我的大脑保持忙碌。

We saw the dumb rabbit for skit, but then I did a whole bunch of elaborate Normandy, reinvasion, invasion enactments and stuff.

我们在短剧中看到了愚蠢的兔子，但后来我做了一大堆精心设计的诺曼底、重新入侵、入侵表演等等。

47:38 There was every day I would think of, “I got to think of something to make me laugh and then do some stupid skit.” And then, that would fill a couple hours of my time, and then I’d spend an hour or two, a few hours fishing, and then you’d spend a few hours, whatever you’re doing.

每天我都会想，“我必须想出一些让我发笑的东西，然后表演一些愚蠢的小品。”然后，这会占据我几个小时的时间，然后我会花一两个小时，几个小时钓鱼，然后你会花几个小时，无论你在做什么。

Would you do that without a camera?

如果没有相机你会这样做吗？

Yeah.

是的。

47:55 Oh no.

哦不。

The skits, funny question.

短剧，有趣的问题。

That’s a good question.

这是一个好问题。

I don’t know.

我不知道。

48:00 I actually don’t know that.

我其实不知道。

I’ll say that was one of the advantages of being on the show versus in Siberia.

我想说，这是参加演出相对于西伯利亚的优势之一。

So, no, because I didn’t.

所以，不，因为我没有。

In Siberia just do skits by myself, but I didn’t film it.

在西伯利亚就自己演小品，但我没有拍。

And so, it was quite nice to have this camera that made you feel like you weren’t quite as alone as if you were just in the woods by yourself.

所以，拥有这台相机真是太好了，它让你感觉自己并不像独自在树林里那样孤独。

48:23 And I think for me, I was able to…

我认为对我来说，我能够……

it was a pain.

这是一种痛苦。

It was part of the cause of me missing that moose.

这是我想念那头驼鹿的部分原因。

There’s issues with it, but I just chose to look at it like, this is an awesome opportunity to share with people, a part of me that most people don’t get to see.

它存在一些问题，但我只是选择这样看待它，这是一个与人们分享的绝佳机会，这是大多数人看不到的我的一部分。

So, that was, I just chose to look at it that way and it was an advantage because you could do stuff like that.

所以，我只是选择这样看待它，这是一个优势，因为你可以做这样的事情。

I think there’s actual power to doing this kind of documenting, like talking to a camera or an audio recorder.

我认为进行这种记录是有实际力量的，就像对着摄像机或录音机说话一样。

48:44 That’s an actual tool in survival because I had a little bit of an experience of being out alone in the jungle and just being able to talk to a thing is much less lonely.

这是一个实际的生存工具，因为我有过独自在丛林中度过的经历，只要能够与事物交谈就不会那么孤独了。

It is.

这是。

49:03 It really is.

确实如此。

It can be a powerful tool, just sharing your experience.

它可以是一个强大的工具，只需分享您的经验即可。

I definitely had the thought.

我肯定有这个想法。

So, going back to your earlier comment, but I definitely had the thought if I knew I was the last person on earth, I wouldn’t even bother.

所以，回到你之前的评论，但我绝对有这样的想法：如果我知道我是地球上最后一个人，我什至都不会打扰。

49:18 I wouldn’t do that.

我不会那样做。

I would just probably not hunt.

我可能只是不会打猎。

I’d just give up.

我只会放弃。

I’m sure, because even if I had a bunch of food and this and that, but because I knew you…

我确定，因为即使我有一堆食物还有这个那个，但因为我认识你……

you know you’re a part, you’re sharing, it gives you a lot of strength to go through and having that camera just makes it that much more vivid because you know you’re not just going to be sharing a vague memory, but an actual experience.

你知道你是其中的一部分，你在分享，它给了你很大的力量去经历，而拥有那台相机只会让它变得更加生动，因为你知道你不仅要分享模糊的记忆，而且要分享真实的经历。

I think if you’re the last person on earth, you would actually convince yourself, first of all, you don’t know for sure.

我想如果你是地球上最后一个人，你实际上会说服自己，首先，你不确定。

49:40 There’s always going to be-

总会有——

Hope dies last.

希望最后消逝。

Hope really does die last because you really don’t know.

希望真的最后会消失，因为你真的不知道。

49:50 You really hope to find.

你真的希望找到。

I mean, if an apocalypse happens, I think your whole life will become about finding the other person.

我的意思是，如果世界末日发生，我想你的一生将变成寻找另一个人。

It would be and there’s a…

会的，并且有一个……

50:01 I mean I guess I’m saying, “If you knew you were for some reason, knew you were the last, I wonder if you would.

我的意思是，我想我是在说，“如果你知道自己出于某种原因，知道自己是最后一个，我想知道你是否会这么做。

I wonder if…” that was a thought I had if I knew I was the last person.

我想知道是否……”如果我知道自己是最后一个人，我就会有这样的想法。

Because here I was having a good time, having fun fishing, plenty of food.

因为在这里我玩得很开心，钓鱼很开心，食物也很多。

But if I knew I was the last person on earth, I don’t know that I would even bother.

但如果我知道我是地球上最后一个人，我不知道我是否会打扰。

But now, if that was for real, would I bother?

但现在，如果那是真的，我会打扰吗？

That’s the question.

这就是问题所在。

No, no.

不，不。

50:24 I think if you knew, if some way you knew for sure, I think your mind will start doubting it that whoever told you you’re the last person, whatever was lying.

我想，如果你知道，如果你以某种方式确定地知道，我想你的大脑会开始怀疑，无论是谁告诉你你是最后一个人，无论是谁在撒谎。

Right.

正确的。

50:36 The power of hope might be more-

希望的力量或许更——

More powerful than-

比——更强大

…

……

50:40 than I accounted for in that situation.

比我在那种情况下所考虑的要多。

Also, if you are indeed the last person you might want to be documenting it for once you die, an alien species comes about because whatever happened on earth is a pretty special thing.

另外，如果你确实是死后最不想记录的人，那么外星物种就会出现，因为地球上发生的事情都是非常特别的事情。

50:42 And if you’re the last one, you might be the last person to tell the story of what happened.

如果你是最后一个，你可能是最后一个讲述所发生事情的人。

And so, that’s going to be a way to convince yourself that this is important.

因此，这将是一种让自己相信这很重要的方法。

And so, the days will go by like this, but it would be lonely.

就这样，日子就这样过去了，却又会很孤独。

Boy would that be lonely.

男孩，那会很孤独。

It would be.

这将是。

51:10 Well, delving into the dredges, the depths of something.

嗯，深入挖掘，深入某事物。

There is going to be existential dread, but also, I don’t know.

将会存在存在的恐惧，但我也不知道。

51:17 I think hope will burn bright.

我想希望会燃烧得很明亮。

You’ll be looking for other humans.

你会寻找其他人。

That’s one of the reasons I was looking forward to talking to you.

这就是我期待与您交谈的原因之一。

51:26 Things I appreciate about you is you’re always not out of naivety, but you’re always choose to look at the positive.

我欣赏你的一点是，你总是不那么天真，而是总是选择看到积极的一面。

You know what I mean?

你知道我的意思？

And I think that’s a powerful mindset to have appreciated.

我认为这是一种值得赞赏的强大心态。

Yeah, that’d be a pretty cool survival situation though.

是的，不过这将是一个非常酷的生存环境。

51:41 If you’re the last person on earth.

如果你是地球上最后一个人。

At least you could share it.

至少你可以分享它。

You could share it.

你可以分享它。

51:48 Yeah.

是的。

Like I said, many people consider you the most successful competitor on Alone.

就像我说的，很多人认为你是《孤独》中最成功的竞争对手。

The other successful one is Roland Welker, Rock House guy.

另一位成功的人是 Roland Welker，Rock House 的成员。

Oh yeah.

哦，是的。

This is just a fun, ridiculous question, but head-to-head, who do you think survives longer?

这只是一个有趣、可笑的问题，但是正面交锋，你认为谁活得更久？

If you want to get me the competitive side of it, I would just say, “Well, I’m pretty dang sure I had more pounds of food.” And I didn’t have the advantage in knowing when it would end, which I think would’ve been a great psychological.

如果你想让我有竞争力，我会说，“好吧，我非常确定我有更多磅的食物。”而且我没有优势知道它什么时候结束，我认为这会是一个很好的心理作用。

52:10 It would’ve made it really easy.

这会让事情变得非常容易。

52:27 Once I got the moose, I could have shot the moose and just not stressed.

一旦我得到了驼鹿，我就可以射杀驼鹿，而且不会有压力。

That would’ve been like…

那就像……

And so, that was a big difference between the seasons that I felt…

所以，我感受到的季节之间有很大的差异......

I mean, I felt like the psychology of season seven, they messed up by doing a hundred-day cap because for my own experience, that was the hardest part.

我的意思是，我觉得第七季的心理，他们通过一百天上限搞砸了，因为根据我自己的经验，这是最难的部分。

But Roland’s a beast.

但罗兰是个野兽。

So, for people who don’t know, they put a hundred-day cap on.

因此，对于那些不知道的人，他们设置了一百天的上限。

52:47 So, it’s whoever can survive a hundred days for that season.

所以，谁能在那个赛季存活一百天，谁就获胜。

It’s interesting to hear that for you, the uncertainty not knowing when it ends.

听到这个对你来说很有趣，不确定性不知道什么时候结束。

That was for sure.

那是肯定的。

It’s the hardest.

这是最难的。

53:00 That’s true.

这是真的。

It’s like you wake up every day.

就像你每天醒来一样。

I didn’t know how to ration my food.

我不知道如何配给我的食物。

53:05 I didn’t know if I was going to lose after six months and then it was all going to be for not.

我不知道六个月后我是否会失败，然后一切都会失败。

I didn’t know.

我不知道。

There’s so many unknowns.

有很多未知数。

You don’t know.

你不知道。

53:16 Like I said, if I shot a moose and it was a hundred days done, if I shot a moose and you don’t know, it’s like, “Crap, I could still lose to somebody else.” But it’s going to be way in the future.

就像我说的，如果我射杀了一头驼鹿并且已经过去了一百天，如果我射杀了一只驼鹿而你不知道，那就像是，“糟糕，我仍然可能输给别人。”但这将是未来的事情。

So, anyway, that for me was definitely the hard part.

所以，无论如何，这对我来说绝对是困难的部分。

When you found out that you won and your wife was there, it was funny because you were really happy, there was great moment of you reuniting.

当你发现你赢了并且你的妻子也在场时，这很有趣，因为你真的很高兴，这是你们重聚的美好时刻。

53:31 But also, there’s a state of shock of you look like you were ready to go much longer.

但同时，你也有一种震惊的感觉，看起来你已经准备好走得更远了。

That was the most genuine shock I could have.

这是我能感受到的最真实的震惊。

53:48 I hadn’t even entertained the thought yet.

我什至还没有想到这个想法。

I didn’t even think it was…

我什至没想到这是……

you’d hear the helicopters and I just assumed there was other people out there.

你会听到直升机的声音，我只是以为外面还有其他人。

I just hadn’t…

我只是没有……

I thought, and for one, the previous person that had gone the longest had gone 89 days.

我想，前一个走得最长的人已经走了89天。

So, I just knew whoever else was out here with me, somebody’s got that in their crosshairs.

所以，我只知道无论其他人和我在一起，有人都在瞄准它。

54:11 They’re going to get to 90 and they’re not going to quit at 90, they’re going to go to a 100.

他们会达到 90 分，但他们不会在 90 分就放弃，他们会达到 100 分。

I just figured we can’t start thinking about the end until a couple months from when it ended.

我只是觉得我们要等到结束几个月后才能开始考虑结局。

So, I was just shocked and they tricked me pretty good.

所以，我很震惊，他们很好地欺骗了我。

They know how to make you think that you’re not alone.

他们知道如何让你认为你并不孤单。

So, they want you to just be surprised?

所以，他们只是想让你感到惊讶？

Yeah, they want it to be a surprise.

是的，他们希望这是一个惊喜。

So, you really weren’t…

所以说，你确实没有……

54:31 I mean, you have to do that, I guess for survival.

我的意思是，我想为了生存，你必须这样做。

Don’t be counting the days.

不要数日子。

No, I think that would be…

不，我想那会是……

54:36 then you see that on some of the people do that.

然后你会看到有些人这样做。

For myself that would be bad psychology because then you’re just always disappointing yourself.

对我自己来说，这将是一种不好的心理，因为那样你总是让自己失望。

You have to be resettled with the fact that this is going to go a long time and suck.

你必须重新接受这样一个事实：这将持续很长时间并且很糟糕。

Once you come to peace with that, maybe you’ll be pleasantly surprised, but you’re not going to be constantly disappointed.

一旦你接受了这一点，也许你会感到惊喜，但你不会一直感到失望。

So, what was your diet like?

那么，您的饮食习惯如何？

54:54 What was your eating habits like during that time?

那段时间你的饮食习惯是怎样的？

How many meals a day?

一天吃几顿饭？

This is-

这是——

Oh man.

噢，伙计。

55:06 Oh, no.

哦，不。

Was it one meal a day or?

是一天一顿饭还是？

I was trying to eat the thing.

我正想吃那个东西。

I was not trying to…

我并没有试图……

that the more the moose is hanging out there, the more the critters.

驼鹿越多，动物就越多。

Every critter in the forest is trying to peck at it or mice trying to eat it and stuff.

森林里的每一个小动物都试图啄它，或者老鼠试图吃它之类的东西。

So, one of the ways you can protect the food is by eating it?

那么，保护食物的方法之一就是吃掉它吗？

Yeah.

是的。

55:19 So, I was having three good meals a day, and then I’d cook up some meat and go to sleep and then wake up in the middle of the night because there’s long nights and have some meat at night, eat a bunch at night.

所以，我一日三餐都吃好，然后煮点肉去睡觉，然后半夜醒来，因为夜晚很长，晚上吃点肉，晚上吃一堆。

So, I’d usually have a fish stew for lunch and then moose for breakfast and dinner and then have some for a nighttime snack.

所以，我通常会在午餐时吃炖鱼，然后在早餐和晚餐时吃驼鹿，然后再吃一些作为夜间小吃。

Because the nights were long, so you’d be in bed 14 hours and wake up and eat and you dink around and go back to sleep.

因为夜晚很长，所以你会在床上躺 14 个小时，然后起床吃饭，然后喝酒然后再睡觉。

Is it okay that it was pretty low-carb situation?

这是相当低碳水化合物的情况吗？

Yeah, I actually felt really good.

是的，我实际上感觉很好。

55:52 I think I would’ve felt better if I would’ve had a higher percentage of fat because it’s still more protein than if you’re on a keto diet, you want a lot of fat.

我想如果我的脂肪比例更高的话我会感觉更好，因为它仍然比你在生酮饮食中含有更多的蛋白质，你需要大量的脂肪。

And so, I didn’t try to mix in nature’s carbs, different reindeer lichen and things like that.

所以，我没有尝试混合自然界的碳水化合物、不同的驯鹿地衣之类的东西。

But honestly, I felt pretty good on that diet.

但老实说，我对这种饮食感觉很好。

We’ll see.

我们会看到的。

What’s the secret to protecting food?

保护食物的秘诀是什么？

56:16 What are the different ways to protect food?

保护食品有哪些不同的方法？

Yeah.

是的。

56:19 There’s a lot of times in a typical situation in the woods hunting, you’ll raise it up in a tree, in a bag, put it in a game bag so the birds can’t peck at it and hang it in a tree.

在森林狩猎的典型情况下，很多时候，你会把它举在树上，装在袋子里，放在游戏袋里，这样鸟儿就不能啄食它，然后把它挂在树上。

So, that it cools.

所以，它冷却了。

You got to make sure first to cool it because it’ll spoil.

你必须首先确保将其冷却，因为它会变质。

So, you cool it by whatever means necessary, hanging it in a cool place, letting the air blow around it.

因此，您可以通过任何必要的方式对其进行冷却，将其挂在阴凉的地方，让周围的空气流通。

56:40 And then, you’ll notice that every forest freeloader in the woods is going to come and try to steal your food.

然后，你会注意到树林里的每一个贪图便宜的人都会来尝试偷你的食物。

And it was just fun.

这很有趣。

I mean, it was crazy to watch.

我的意思是，观看起来真是太疯狂了。

It’s all the Jay, all the camp Jays pecking at it.

都是松鸦队，所有营地松鸦队都在啄食它。

Everything I did, there was something that could get to it.

我所做的一切，都有可以实现的东西。

If put on the ground, the mice get on it and they poop on it and they mess it up.

如果放在地上，老鼠就会爬到上面，然后在上面拉屎，把它弄得一团糟。

So, ultimately it just dawned on me, “Shoot, I’m going to have to build one of those Evenki like food caches.

所以，最终我突然意识到，“好吧，我得建一个像鄂温克人一样的食物储藏室。

So, I did and I put it up there and I thought I solved my problem.

所以，我这样做了，我把它放在那里，我想我解决了我的问题。

To be honest, the Evenki then, so they would’ve taken a page out of, they would’ve mixed me and Roland’s solution.

说实话，鄂温克人，所以他们会借鉴，他们会把我和罗兰的解决方案混合在一起。

They build this tall stilt shelter and then put a box on the top that’s enclosed.

他们建造了这个高高的高跷庇护所，然后在顶部放了一个封闭的盒子。

57:27 And then, the bears can’t get to it, the mice can’t poop on it, the birds, the wolverine, it’s safe.

然后，熊无法到达它，老鼠无法在上面拉屎，鸟类、狼獾，都是安全的。

And I never finished it.

我从未完成它。

In hindsight, I don’t actually know why.

事后看来，我其实也不知道为什么。

I think just the way it timed.

我认为就是时间安排的方式。

I didn’t think something was going to get up there.

我不认为有什么东西会升到那里。

57:40 Then, it did.

然后，它做到了。

And then, you’re counting calories and stuff.

然后，你开始计算卡路里之类的东西。

I should have in hindsight, just boxed it in right away.

事后看来，我应该立即把它装箱。

To get ready for the long haul?

为长途跋涉做好准备吗？

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

是啊，是啊，是啊。

Is a rabbit starvation a real thing?

兔子挨饿是真的吗？

Yeah.

是的。

57:52 So, you can’t just live off protein and rabbits are almost just protein.

所以，你不能只靠蛋白质生存，而兔子几乎就是蛋白质。

I’d kill a rabbit, eat the innards and the brain and the eyes, and then everything else is just protein.

我会杀一只兔子，吃掉内脏、大脑和眼睛，然后其他的一切都只是蛋白质。

And so, it takes more calories to process that protein than you’re getting from it without the fat.

因此，与不含脂肪的蛋白质相比，处理蛋白质需要更多的卡路里。

So, you actually lose…

那么，你实际上就输了……

I had a lot of rabbits in the first 20 days.

前20天我养了很多兔子。

58:16 I had 28 rabbits or something, but I was losing weight at exactly the same speed as everybody else that didn’t have anything.

我养了 28 只兔子什么的，但我减肥的速度和其他什么都没有的人完全相同。

So, that’s interesting.

所以，这很有趣。

That’s fascinating.

这很有趣。

And I’d never tried that before.

我以前从未尝试过。

58:24 So, I was wondering if I’m catching a ton of rabbits, I wonder if I can last, what, six months on rabbits?

所以，我想知道我是否抓到了大量的兔子，我想知道我是否可以坚持，什么，六个月的兔子？

But no, you just starve as fast as everybody else.

但不，你只是和其他人一样快挨饿。

So, I had to learn that on the fly and adjust.

所以，我必须即时学习并调整。

I wonder what to make of that.

我想知道该怎么做。

58:36 So, you need fat to survive, like fundamentally?

那么，从根本上来说，你需要脂肪才能生存吗？

Yeah.

是的。

58:41 And you’ll notice when the wolverine came or when animals came, they would eat the skin off of the fish.

你会注意到，当狼獾来时或当动物来时，它们会吃掉鱼的皮。

They would eat the eyes.

他们会吃掉眼睛。

They’d steal the moose.

他们会偷驼鹿。

They’d leave all the meat.

他们会留下所有的肉。

Bunch of fat?

一堆脂肪？

Yeah.

是的。

58:52 Behind the eyes is a bunch of fat.

眼睛后面有一堆脂肪。

So, yeah, you can observe nature and see what they’re eating and know where the gold is.

所以，是的，你可以观察大自然，看看它们在吃什么，并知道金子在哪里。

What do you like eating when you can eat whatever you want?

当你可以想吃什么就吃什么的时候，你喜欢吃什么？

59:01 What do you feel best eating?

你觉得吃什么最好？

What do I feel best?

我感觉最好的是什么？

59:06 I just try to eat clean.

我只是尽量吃得干净。

I think I’m not super stricter on anything, but I think when I eat less carbs, I feel better.

我认为我对任何事情都不是特别严格，但我认为当我吃更少的碳水化合物时，我会感觉更好。

Meat and vegetables, we eat a lot of meat.

肉和蔬菜，我们吃很多肉。

So, basically everything you ate on Alone plus some veggies?

那么，基本上你独自吃的所有东西加上一些蔬菜？

Plus, veggies.

另外，蔬菜。

59:24 Throwing some buckwheat.

撒点荞麦。

I like buckwheat.

我喜欢荞麦。

No, I’m just kidding.

不，我只是开玩笑。

Let’s step to the early days of Jordan.

让我们回顾一下乔丹的早期时代。

59:29 So, your Instagram handles Hobo Jordo.

所以，你的 Instagram 上就有 Hobo Jordo。

So, early on in your life you hoboed around the US on freight trains.

所以，在你生命的早期，你就乘坐货运列车在美国各地流浪。

What’s the story behind that?

这背后的故事是什么？

My brother, when he was 17 or so, he just decided to go hitchhiking and he hitchhiked down to Reno from Idaho where we were and ended up loving traveling, but hated being dependent on other people.

我的兄弟，大约17岁的时候，他决定搭便车，从我们所在的爱达荷州搭便车到里诺，最终喜欢旅行，但讨厌依赖别人。

59:47 So, he ended up jumping on a freight train and just did it.

所以，他最终跳上了货运列车，然后就这么做了。

Honestly, he pretty much got on a train and traveled the country for the next eight years on trains, lived in the streets and everywhere, but he was sober.

老实说，他几乎都是坐火车，在接下来的八年里乘火车走遍了全国，住在街上，到处都是，但他很清醒。

1:00:16 So, it gives you a different experience than a lot.

所以，它给你带来了与很多人不同的体验。

But at one point when I was, I guess, yeah, 18, he invited me to come along with him.

但有一次，当我，我想，是的，18 岁的时候，他邀请我和他一起去。

He’d probably been doing it five or so, four or five years or more.

他可能已经这样做了五年左右、四五年或更久了。

And I said, ” Sure.” So, I quit my job and went out with him.

我说：“当然。”于是，我辞掉了工作，和他出去了。

1:00:33 Hobo Jordan is a bit of an over stuff.

流浪汉乔丹有点过头了。

I feel self-conscious about that because I rode trains across the country up and down the coast, back, spent the better part of the year run around riding trains and all the staying in places related to that.

我对此感到不自在，因为我乘坐火车穿越全国，沿着海岸来来回回，一年中的大部分时间都花在乘坐火车上，以及所有与此相关的地方。

But all the people, the real hobos, those guys are out there doing it for years on end.

但所有的人，真正的流浪汉，这些人都在外面连续多年这样做。

1:00:53 But it was such a…

但这是这样的……

for me, what it felt like was, it felt like a bit of a rite of passage experience, which is missing I think in modern life.

对我来说，这感觉就像是一种成人仪式的经历，我认为现代生活中缺少这种体验。

So, I did this thing that was a huge unknown.

所以，我做了这件事，这是一个巨大的未知数。

Ben was there with me and my brother for most of it.

大部分时间本都和我和我哥哥在一起。

1:01:09 We traveled around, got pushed my boundaries in every which way, froze at night and did all this stuff.

我们到处旅行，在各个方面都突破了我的界限，在晚上冻僵了，做了所有这些事情。

And then, at the end I actually wanted to go back and go back home.

然后，最后我真的想回去，回家。

And so, I went on my own and went from Minneapolis back up to Spokane on my own, which was my first stint of time by myself for a week which was interesting.

因此，我独自一人从明尼阿波利斯回到斯波坎，这是我第一次独自度过一周的时间，这很有趣。

Alone with your own thoughts?

独自一人有自己的想法吗？

With your own thoughts.

凭着自己的想法。

1:01:32 It was my first time in my life having been like that.

这是我一生中第一次出现这样的情况。

And so, it was powerful at the time.

所以说，它在当时是很强大的。

What it did too is it gave me a whole different view of life because I had gotten a job when I was 13 and then 14, 15, 16, 17, and then I was just in the normal run of things and then that just threw a whole different path into my life.

它的作用还在于它让我对生活有了一种完全不同的看法，因为我在 13 岁的时候找到了一份工作，然后是 14、15、16、17 岁，然后我就处于正常的生活之中，然后这就为我的生活开辟了一条完全不同的道路。

And then, I realized some of the things while I was traveling that I wouldn’t experience again until I was living with natives and such.

然后，我意识到在旅行时发生的一些事情，除非我与当地人一起生活，否则我不会再次经历这些事情。

1:02:00 And that was you wake up, you don’t have a schedule, you literally just have needs and you just somehow have to meet your needs.

那就是你醒来，你没有时间表，你实际上只是有需求，你只是必须以某种方式满足你的需求。

And so, there’s a really sense of freedom you get that is hard to replicate elsewhere.

因此，你会得到一种真正的自由感，这是其他地方很难复制的。

And so, that was eye-opening to me.

所以，这让我大开眼界。

And I think once I did that, I went back.

我想一旦我这样做了，我就回去了。

So, I went back to my old job at the salad dressing plant.

于是，我又回到了沙拉酱厂的老工作岗位。

1:02:24 And there’s this old cross-eyed guy and he was, “Oh, Hobo Jordo is back.” And that’s where I got it.

还有一个斗鸡眼的老家伙，他说：“哦，流浪汉乔多回来了。”这就是我得到它的地方。

But at freedom always was very important to me, I think from that time on.

但我想从那时起，自由对我来说一直非常重要。

What’d you learn about the United States, about the people along the way?

您对美国以及沿途的人们了解了什么？

1:02:38 Because I took a road trip across the US also and there’s a romantic element there too of the freedom, of the…

因为我也进行了一次横跨美国的公路旅行，那里也有一种自由、……的浪漫元素。

well, maybe for me not knowing what the hell I’m going to do with my life, but also excited by all the possibilities.

好吧，也许对我来说，我不知道自己到底要做什么，但也对所有的可能性感到兴奋。

And then, you meet a lot of different people and a lot of different kinds of stories.

然后，你遇到了很多不同的人，也遇到了很多不同的故事。

1:03:06 And also, a lot of people that support you for traveling.

而且，还有很多人支持你旅行。

Because there’s a lot of people dream of experiencing that freedom, at least the people I’ve met.

因为有很多人梦想体验这种自由，至少是我遇到的人。

And they usually don’t go outside of their little town.

他们通常不会走出他们的小镇。

1:03:22 They have a thing and they have a family usually, and they don’t explore, they don’t take the leap.

他们通常有自己的东西，也有家庭，他们不探索，不迈出一步。

And you can do that when you’re young.

当你年轻的时候你就可以做到这一点。

I guess you could do that at any moment.

我想你随时都可以这么做。

Just say fuck it and leap into the abyss of being on the road.

只要说一句去他妈的，然后就跳入路上的深渊。

But anyway, what did you learn about this country, about the people in this country?

但无论如何，你对这个国家、这个国家的人民了解了什么？

You’re in an interesting context when you’re on trains because the trains always end up in the crappiest part of town and you’re always outside interacting.

当你乘坐火车时，你会处于一个有趣的环境中，因为火车总是停在城镇最破烂的地方，而你总是在外面互动。

1:03:43 Well, the interesting things, every once in a while you’ll have to hitchhike to get from one place to another.

嗯，有趣的是，每隔一段时间你就得搭便车从一个地方到另一个地方。

One interesting thing is you notice you always get picked up by the poor people.

一件有趣的事情是你注意到你总是被穷人接走。

They’re the people that empathize with you, stop, pick you up, you go to whatever ghetto I remember, you end up in and people are really, “Oh, what are you guys doing?” Real friendly and relatable.

他们是那些同情你的人，停下来接你，你去我记得的任何贫民窟，你最终进入的人真的是，“哦，你们在做什么？”真正的友好和相关。

1:04:17 It broadened my horizons for sure, from being just an Idaho kid and then meeting all these different people and just seeing the goodness in people and this and that.

它确实拓宽了我的视野，从一个爱达荷州的孩子，到遇到所有这些不同的人，看到人们的善良以及这个那个。

It’s also very, a lot of drugs and a lot of people with mental issues that you’re friends with, dealing with and all that kind of stuff.

还有很多毒品和很多有精神问题的人，你和他们是朋友，打交道等等。

Any memorable characters?

有哪些令人难忘的角色？

Well, there’s a few for sure.

嗯，肯定有一些。

1:04:40 I mean a lot of them I still know that are still around.

我的意思是，我仍然知道其中很多仍然存在。

Rocco was one guy we traveled, he’s become like a brother, but he traveled with my brother for years because they were the two sober guys.

罗科是我们旅行过的一个人，他就像一个兄弟，但他和我兄弟一起旅行了很多年，因为他们是两个清醒的人。

He rather than traveling because he was hooked on stuff, did it to escape all that.

他旅行并不是因为对事物着迷，而是为了逃避这一切。

And so, he was sober and straight edge and he always like 5’7″ Italian guy that was always getting in fights.

所以，他很清醒，性格直率，他总是喜欢5英尺7英寸的意大利家伙，总是喜欢打架。

1:05:10 And he has his own sense of ethics that I think is really interesting because he is super honest, but he expects it of others.

他有自己的道德感，我认为这真的很有趣，因为他非常诚实，但他对别人也有这样的期望。

And so, it’s funny in the modern context, the thing that pops in my head is when he got a car for the first time, which wasn’t that long, he was in his 30s or something and he registered it, which he was mad about that he had to register.

所以，在现代背景下，这很有趣，我脑海中浮现的事情是，当他第一次拥有一辆车时，时间不长，他 30 多岁左右，他注册了它，他对必须注册感到生气。

But then, the next year they told him he had to register again and he is like, “What did you lose my registration?” went down there to the DMV, chewed him out that he had to reregister, because he already registered.

但第二年，他们告诉他必须再次注册，他说：“你丢失了我的注册信息吗？”去DMV，训斥他必须重新登记，因为他已经登记了。

1:05:44 Where’s the paperwork?

文件在哪里？

But he just views the world from a different lens.

但他只是从不同的角度看待世界。

I thought, but on everything, he’s a character.

我想，但在所有事情上，他都是一个人物。

Now, he just lives by digging up bottles and finding treasures in them.

现在，他只是靠挖瓶子并在里面寻找宝藏为生。

But he notices the injustices in the world and speaks up.

但他注意到世界上的不公正现象并大声疾呼。

And speaks up and he is always like, “Why doesn’t everybody else speak up about their car registration?” And then, there was, Devo comes to mind because he was such a unique character as far as just for one, he would’ve lived to be a 120 because the amount of chemicals and everything else he put into his body and still, “Hey man,” one of those guys, he could always get a dime.

他总是说出来，“为什么其他人不说出他们的汽车登记情况？”然后，我想到了德沃，因为他是一个如此独特的角色，就一个人而言，他本来可以活到 120 岁，因为他在体内注入了大量的化学物质和其他所有东西，但“嘿，伙计”，他总是能得到一毛钱。

1:06:00 “Oh, spare dime.

“哦，省点钱吧。

Spare dime.”

省点一毛钱。”

1:06:23 He would bum change.

他会抛弃改变。

And I’d see him sometimes and I’d be gone and then go to New York to visit my sister or something.

有时我会见到他，然后我会离开，然后去纽约看望我的妹妹或其他什么地方。

And I’d, ” Sure enough, there’s Devo on the street.

我会说，“果然，街上有德沃。

What do you know?” You go visit him in the hospital because he got bit by 27 hobo spider bites.

你知道什么？你去医院探望他，因为他被 27 只流浪汉蜘蛛咬伤了。

1:06:39 It was just always rough, but charismatic, vital, the vitality of life was in him, but it was just so permeated with drugs and alcohol too.

他的生活总是很艰难，但充满魅力，充满活力，生命的活力在他身上，但也充满了毒品和酒精。

It’s interesting.

这很有趣。

Because I’ve met people like that, they’re just, yeah, joy permeates the whole way of being and they’re like, they’ve been through some.

因为我遇到过这样的人，他们只是，是的，快乐弥漫在整个存在方式中，他们就像，他们经历过一些事情。

1:06:50 They have scars, they’ve got it rough, but they’ve always got a big smile.

他们有伤疤，他们经历过艰难，但他们总是笑容满面。

There’s a guy I met in the jungle named Pico.

我在丛林里遇到了一个叫皮科的人。

He lost a leg and he drives a boat and he just always has a big smile.

他失去了一条腿，但他驾驶着一艘船，但他总是面带灿烂的笑容。

Even given that the hardship he has to get, everything requires a huge amount of work, but he’s just big smile and there’s stories in those eyes.

即使他所经历的艰辛，一切都需要大量的工作，但他只是灿烂的笑容，那双眼睛里有故事。

There was something about enduring difficulty that makes you able to appreciate life and look at it and smile.

忍受困难让你能够欣赏生活，微笑着看待它。

Any advice, if I were to take a road trip again or if somebody else is thinking of hopping out on a freight train or hitchhiking?

如果我要再次进行公路旅行，或者其他人正在考虑乘坐货运火车或搭便车，有什么建议吗？

Way easier now because you have a map on your phone and you tell you’re going, “You’re cheating now.”

现在容易多了，因为你的手机上有一张地图，你告诉你要去，“你现在在作弊。”

It’s not about the destiny, because the map is about the destination, but here is like you don’t really give a damn.

这与命运无关，因为地图是关于目的地的，但在这里就像你真的不在乎。

Yeah.

是的。

1:07:45 Right.

对。

The train is where you’re going.

火车就是你要去的地方。

You’re not going anywhere.

你哪儿也不去。

Exactly.

正是如此。

I say do it.

我说做吧。

1:07:49 Go out and do things, especially when you’re young.

出去做事，尤其是当你年轻的时候。

Experiences and stuff, help create the person you will be in the future.

经历和东西，有助于塑造你未来的样子。

1:07:57 Doing things that you think like, “Oh, I don’t want to do that.

做一些你认为的事情，“哦，我不想那样做。

I’m a little scared of that.” I mean, that’s what you got to do.

我对此有点害怕。”我的意思是，这就是你必须做的。

You just get out of your-

你只要摆脱你的——

1:08:00 …

……

scared of that.

害怕那个。

That’s what you got to do.

这就是你必须要做的。

You just get out of your comfort zone, and you will grow as a person, and you’ll go through a lot of wild experiences along the way.

你只要走出自己的舒适区，你就会成长为一个人，一路上你会经历很多疯狂的经历。

Say yes to life in that way.

以这种方式对生活说“是”。

Say yes to life.

对生活说“是”。

1:08:10 Yeah.

是的。

I love the boredom of it.

我喜欢它的无聊。

Freight train riding is very boring, and you’ll wait for hours for a train that never comes, and then you’ll go to the store, and come back and it’ll be gone.

乘坐货运火车非常无聊，你会等上几个小时，等待一辆永远不会来的火车，然后你去商店，回来时它就不见了。

1:08:14 You’re like, “No.” But I remember, we went to jail, we got out and then-

你会说：“不。”但我记得，我们进了监狱，出来了然后——

How’d you end up in jail?

你怎么进监狱的？

It was things, trespassing on a train, but we were riding a train, and my brother woke up, and they had a dead outland on his head, and hit the train and fell on him.

事情是这样的，侵入火车，但我们正在乘坐火车，我哥哥醒来了，他们头上有一个死亡的外域，撞上了火车，摔在了他身上。

1:08:31 And we woke up and we were laughing.

我们醒了，我们都在笑。

That’s got to be some kind of bad omen.

这一定是某种不祥之兆。

And then, we were looking out of the train, and we saw a train worker look, and saw us and he went, like, “Oh, we know that’s a bad omen.”

然后，我们向火车外望去，看到一名火车工作人员看着我们，然后他说道，“哦，我们知道这是一个坏兆头。”

1:08:55 Anyway, sure enough, the police stopped the train.

不管怎样，警察果然拦住了火车。

Somebody had seen us on it, and they searched it, got us and threw us in jail.

有人在上面看到了我们，他们搜查了我们，抓住了我们，然后把我们关进了监狱。

It was not a big deal.

这没什么大不了的。

We were in jail a couple days, but when we got out, of course they put us…

我们在监狱里呆了几天，但是当我们出狱后，他们当然把我们关进了……

We were in some podunk town in Indiana and we didn’t know where to catch out of there.

我们当时在印第安纳州的某个破旧小镇，我们不知道该去哪里。

And so, we were at some factory and we just banning factory.

所以，我们在某个工厂，我们只是禁止工厂。

1:09:16 And we were right there for four days, no train that was going slow enough that we could catch.

我们在那里待了四天，没有一列火车开得慢到我们能赶上。

And then, we found this big old roll of aluminum foil, and now I got to apologize to this woman because we were so bored just sitting there.

然后，我们发现了这一大旧铝箔卷，现在我必须向这个女人道歉，因为我们只是坐在那里太无聊了。

We built these hats, like horns coming out every which way, and loops, and just sitting there.

我们制作了这些帽子，就像从各个方向伸出的喇叭一样，并且循环，就坐在那里。

And it was that night and some minivan pulled up to this train that was going by too.

就在那天晚上，一辆小型货车停在了这列也经过的火车上。

We’re like, “Rr-rr-rr.” We were circling the car.

我们就像，“Rr-rr-rr”。我们绕着车转。

Just entertaining yourself.

只是自娱自乐而已。

Entertaining yourself with whatever you can.

尽你所能地娱乐自己。

1:09:41 The poor lady was terrified.

可怜的女士被吓坏了。

So, hitchhiking was tough.

所以，搭便车很艰难。

I didn’t like hitchhiking, just because you’re depending on the other people.

我不喜欢搭便车，只是因为你依赖其他人。

1:09:46 I don’t know why, you just want to be independent, but you do meet really cool people.

我不知道为什么，你只是想独立，但你确实遇到了很酷的人。

A lot of times there’s really nice people that pick you up and that’s cool.

很多时候，会有非常好的人来接你，这很酷。

But I just personally actually didn’t do it a lot and I wasn’t…

但我个人实际上并没有这样做很多，而且我也没有……

If you’re on the streets for 10 years, you’ll end up doing it a lot more because you need to get from point A to point B, but we just tried to avoid it as much as we could because it didn’t appeal to us as much.

如果你在街上呆了 10 年，你最终会做更多的事情，因为你需要从 A 点到 B 点，但我们只是尽力避免它，因为它对我们没有那么大的吸引力。

Well, one downside of hitchhiking is people talk a lot.

嗯，搭便车的一个缺点是人们会说很多话。

They do.

他们确实这么做了。

It’s both the pro and the con.

这既有优点也有缺点。

Yeah.

是的。

Sometimes you just want to be alone with your thoughts or there is a kind of lack of freedom in having to listen to a person that’s giving you a ride.

有时候，你只是想独自思考，或者不得不听一个载你一程的人的讲话，这会缺乏自由。

It’s so true.

确实如此。

1:10:36 And then, you don’t know how to react too.

然后，你也不知道如何反应。

I was young, I remember I got picked up, I was probably 19 or something, and then I was just like, “Hey, how’s it going?” She’s like, “I’m fine.

我还年轻，我记得我被接走了，我大概 19 岁左右，然后我就想，“嘿，怎么样？”她就像是，“我很好。

Husband just died.” And then, there’s all, “And I got diagnosed with cancer, and this is and that.” And pretty bitter, and all that, and understandably so, but you’re just like, “I have no idea how to respond here.”

丈夫刚刚去世。”然后，就是这样，“我被诊断出患有癌症，就是这样，那样。”非常痛苦，等等，这是可以理解的，但你只是想，“我不知道如何回应。”

Because you-

因为你——

And then, you’re young, and you had to be nice and that.

然后，你还年轻，你必须表现得友善。

1:10:57 And I remember that ride being interesting because I didn’t really know how to respond, and she was angry, and going through some stuff and dumping it out.

我记得那次旅程很有趣，因为我真的不知道如何回应，她很生气，经历了一些事情并将其倒掉。

She didn’t have anyone else to dump it out on.

她没有其他人可以倾倒它。

I was like, “Wow.”

我当时想，“哇。”

I’m going to take the freight train next time.

下次我要坐货运列车。

1:11:11 So, how’d you end up in Siberia?

那么，你是怎么来到西伯利亚的呢？

I’ll try to keep it a little bit short on the how.

我会尽量简短地说明如何进行。

1:11:17 But the long story short was I had a brother that’s adopted, and when he grew up, he wanted to find his biological mom and just tell her thanks.

但长话短说，我有一个被收养的兄弟，当他长大后，他想找到他的亲生母亲并告诉她谢谢。

And so, he did.

所以，他做到了。

He was probably 20 or something, he found his biological mom, told her things.

他大概20岁左右，他找到了他的亲生母亲，告诉了她一些事情。

Turns out he had a brother that was going to go over to Russia and help build this orphanage.

原来他有一个兄弟要去俄罗斯帮助建造这所孤儿院。

1:11:43 And that brother was about my age.

那个兄弟和我年纪相仿。

I remember at that time I read this verse that said, “If you’re in the darkness and see no light, just continue following me,” basically.

我记得当时我读过这节经文，基本上是说：“如果你在黑暗中看不到光明，就继续跟随我吧”。

I was like, “Okay, I’m going to take that to the bank even though I don’t know if it’s true or not.” And then, the only glimpse of light I got in all that was when I heard about that orphanage to go build that orphanage.

我当时想，“好吧，我会把它带到银行，尽管我不知道它是真是假。”然后，当我听说那所孤儿院并去建造那所孤儿院时，我唯一看到了一丝曙光。

1:12:07 And I prayed about it and I felt, and I can’t explain, it brought me to tears.

我为此祈祷，我无法解释，这让我流泪。

I felt so strongly that I should go.

我强烈地觉得我应该走。

And so, I was like, “Well, that’s a clear call.

所以，我想，“嗯，这是一个明确的决定。

I’m just going to do it.” So, I just bought a ticket, got a visa for a year, and then I went, and helped build an orphanage and we got that built.

我只是要做而已。”所以，我买了一张机票，拿到了一年的签证，然后我就去了，帮助建造了一所孤儿院，我们就把它建成了。

But he was an American and I wanted to live with the Russians to learn the language.

但他是美国人，我想和俄罗斯人一起生活来学习语言。

1:12:29 And so, he sent me to a neighboring village to live with a couple Russian families that needed a hand, somebody to watch their kids, and cut their hay, and milk the cow and all that.

因此，他把我送到邻近的村庄，与几个俄罗斯家庭住在一起，他们需要帮助，有人照顾他们的孩子，割草，挤奶等等。

So, I found myself in that little Russian village, just getting to know these two guys and their families.

所以，我发现自己身处那个俄罗斯小村庄，只是为了了解这两个人和他们的家人。

It was pretty fascinating.

这非常令人着迷。

And of course, I didn’t know the language yet and they were two awesome dudes.

当然，我还不懂这种语言，但他们是两个很棒的家伙。

1:12:56 Both of them had been in prison, and met each other in prison, and were really close because they found God in prison together, and got out and stayed connected.

他们两人都曾入狱，并在监狱中相遇，关系非常亲密，因为他们一起在监狱中发现了上帝，并在监狱里出来并保持联系。

And so, I’d bounce back between those two families and they used to always tell me about their third buddy they had been in prison with who was a native fur trapper now in the north.

所以，我会在这两个家庭之间来回穿梭，他们总是告诉我他们曾和他们一起入狱的第三个伙伴，他现在是北方的一个土生土长的毛皮捕猎者。

1:13:17 And so, they’d go, “You got to go meet our buddy up north.” And one day that guy came through to sell furs in the city, and he invited me to come live with him, and my visa was about to expire, but I was like, “When I come back, I’ll come.” And so, I went back home, earned some more money and did some construction or whatever.

所以，他们会说，“你得去北方见我们的朋友。”有一天，那个家伙来城里卖皮毛，他邀请我去和他住在一起，我的签证即将到期，但我想，“当我回来时，我会来的。”于是，我回到家，赚了更多的钱，做了一些建筑之类的。

Then, went back and headed north to hang out with Yura and fur trap.

然后，返回并前往北方，与尤拉和毛皮陷阱一起出去玩。

And that started a whole new…

这开始了一个全新的……

Opened world that I didn’t know about.

开启了我不知道的世界。

Before we talk about Yura and fur trapping, let’s actually rewind.

在我们谈论 Yura 和毛皮诱捕之前，让我们先回顾一下。

1:13:49 And would you describe that moment when you were in the darkness as a crisis of faith?

你会把你身处黑暗的那一刻描述为信仰危机吗？

Yeah.

是的。

1:13:59 Yeah, for sure.

是的，当然。

It was darkness in that I didn’t know how to parse what is this thing that’s my faith, and what’s the wheat, and what’s the chaff and how do I get through it?

那是一片黑暗，我不知道如何解析我的信仰是什么，什么是麦子，什么是谷壳，我该如何度过？

And I basically just clung to keeping it really simple and oddly enough in my Christian path that God was actually defined in a certain God is love.

我基本上只是坚持在我的基督教道路上保持非常简单和奇怪的是，上帝实际上被定义为某个上帝就是爱。

And I was just like, “That’s the only thing I’m going to cling to.”

我当时想，“这是我唯一要坚持的事情。”

1:14:34 And I’m going to try to express that in my life in whichever way I can and just trust that if I do that, if I act like I…

我将尝试以任何方式在我的生活中表达这一点，并且相信如果我这样做，如果我表现得像……

I’ve heard this lately, but if you just act like you believe, over time, that world kind of opens to you.

我最近听说过这个，但如果你表现得像你相信的那样，随着时间的推移，那个世界就会向你敞开。

When I said I would go to Russia, I prayed and I was like, “Lord, I don’t see you.

当我说我要去俄罗斯时，我祈祷说：“主啊，我看不到你。

I don’t know, but I got this what I felt like was a clear call.

我不知道，但我觉得这是一个明确的决定。

I have only one request and that is that you would give me the faith to match my action.”

我只有一个请求，那就是你给我信心来配合我的行动。”

1:15:07 I’m choosing to believe.

我选择相信。

I could choose not to because whatever, but I’m going to choose to act and I just ask to have faith someday.

我可以选择不这样做，因为无论如何，但我会选择采取行动，我只是要求有一天有信心。

And honestly, for the whole first year I went through, that was a very crazy time for me, learning the language, being isolated, being misunderstood, blah-blah, but then trying to approach all that with a loving open heart.

老实说，在我经历的第一年里，这对我来说是一段非常疯狂的时光，学习语言，被孤立，被误解，等等，但随后试图以一颗开放的爱的心来对待这一切。

1:15:31 And then, I came back and I realized that that prayer had been answered.

然后，我回来了，我意识到那个祈祷已经得到了回应。

That wasn’t the end of my journey, but I was like, “Whoa, that was my deepest request that I could come up with and somehow that had been answered.”

这并不是我旅程的终点，但我当时想，“哇，这是我能提出的最深切的请求，不知何故已经得到了答复。”

So, through that year, you were just like, first of all, you couldn’t speak the language.

所以，在那一年，你就像，首先，你不会说这种语言。

1:15:44 That’s really tough.

这真的很难。

That’s really tough.

这真的很难。

It’s tough because it’s unlike on a loan where…

这很困难，因为它不像贷款……

1:15:51 Because not only can you not speak and you feel isolated, but you’re also misunderstood all the time, so you seem like an idiot and all that.

因为你不仅不会说话，感到孤立，而且总是被误解，所以你看起来像个白痴等等。

And so, that was tough.

所以，这很艰难。

I felt very alone at that time, at certain times in that journey.

在那段旅程中的某些时候，我当时感到非常孤独。

But you were radiating, like you said, lead with love.

但正如你所说，你散发着爱的光芒。

1:16:08 So, you were radiating this comradery, this compassion for-

所以，你散发着这种同志情谊，这种同情心——

I was really intentional about trying to…

我真的是有意尝试……

1:16:15 I don’t know why I’m here, I just know that that’s my call is to love one another.

我不知道我为什么在这里，我只知道我的使命就是彼此相爱。

And so, I would just try to…

所以，我只想尝试……

And then it meant digging people’s wells.

然后就意味着给人们挖井。

It might meant just going and visiting that old lady babushka up at the house that’s lonely, and that was really cool.

这可能意味着去拜访那个孤独的老太太头巾，那真的很酷。

I got to talk to some fascinating ladies, and stuff, and then go to that village, help those families.

我必须和一些迷人的女士交谈，然后去那个村庄，帮助那些家庭。

1:16:40 I’m going to be like cut the hay, be the most hardest worker I can be because that’s my goal here.

我会像割草一样，成为我能做到的最努力的工人，因为这是我在这里的目标。

I didn’t have any other agenda or anything except to try to live a life of love and I couldn’t define it beyond that.

除了尝试过一种充满爱的生活之外，我没有任何其他议程或任何事情，除此之外我无法定义它。

What was it like learning the Russian language?

学习俄语是什么感觉？

It was super interesting.

非常有趣。

1:16:56 I think I had the thought while I was learning it, one that it was way too hard.

我想我在学习的时候就有这样的想法，那就是太难了。

If I would’ve just learned Spanish or German, I would be so much farther.

如果我只学习西班牙语或德语，我会走得更远。

But here I am a year in and I’m like, “How do you say I want cheese properly?” But at the same time, it was really cool to learn a language that I thought in a lot of ways was richer than English.

但我已经在这里呆了一年了，我想，“你怎么说我才合适地想要奶酪呢？”但与此同时，学习一门我认为在很多方面比英语更丰富的语言真的很酷。

1:17:22 It’s a very rich language.

这是一门非常丰富的语言。

I remember there was a comedy act in Russian, but he was saying, “One word you can’t have in English is [foreign language 01:17:32],” meaning I didn’t drink enough to get drunk.

我记得有一个俄语喜剧表演，但他说，“英语中不能有一个词是[外语01:17:32]”，意思是我没有喝到喝醉的程度。

That type thing.

那种东西。

But it’s just that you can make up these words using different prefixes, and suffixes, and blend them in a way that is quite unique and interesting.

但只是你可以使用不同的前缀和后缀来组成这些单词，并以一种非常独特和有趣的方式将它们混合在一起。

1:17:48 And honestly, would be really good for poetry because it also doesn’t have sentence structure in the same way English does.

老实说，这对诗歌来说真的很有好处，因为它也不像英语那样有句子结构。

The words can be jumbled in a way.

这些词在某种程度上可能是混乱的。

And somehow in the process of jumbling some humor, some musicality comes out.

不知怎的，在混合一些幽默的过程中，一些音乐性就出来了。

1:17:55 It’s interesting.

这很有趣。

You can be witty in Russian much easier than you can in English, witty and funny.

你用俄语讲机智比用英语更容易，机智又有趣。

And also with poetry, you can say profound things by messing with words in the order of words, which is hilarious because you had a great conversation with Joe Rogan.

还有诗歌，你可以通过按单词顺序打乱单词来表达深刻的东西，这很有趣，因为你和乔·罗根进行了一次很棒的对话。

1:18:20 And on that program, you talked about how to say I love you in Russian, just hilarious.

在那个节目中，你谈到了如何用俄语说我爱你，非常搞笑。

And it was for me, the first time, I don’t know why you were a great person to articulate the flexibility and the power of the Russian language.

对我来说，这是第一次，我不知道为什么你是一个伟大的人，能够阐明俄语的灵活性和力量。

That’s really interesting.

这真的很有趣。

Interesting.

有趣的。

Because you were saying [foreign language 01:18:40], you could say every single order, every single combination of ordering of those words has the same meaning, but slightly different.

因为你说的是​​[外语01:18:40]，你可以说这些单词的每一个顺序、每一个顺序组合都具有相同的含义，但略有不同。

And it would change the meaning if you took ya out and just said, [foreign language 01:19:03].

如果你把你带出去然后说[外语01:19:03]，它的意思就会改变。

1:19:00 There’s a different emphasis or maybe or [foreign language 01:19:06] or something, all these different-

有不同的重点，或者也许或者[外语01:19:06]或者其他什么，所有这些不同-

Or just [foreign language 01:19:10] also.

或者也只是[外语01:19:10]。

Right, exactly.

对，完全正确。

1:19:12 So, it is rich, and it was interesting coming from an English context, and getting a glimpse of that, and then wondering about all those Russian authors that we all appreciate that, oh, we actually aren’t getting the full deal here.

所以，它很丰富，从英语背景来看很有趣，瞥见了这一点，然后想知道我们都欣赏的所有俄罗斯作家，哦，我们实际上没有在这里得到完整的信息。

Yeah, definitely.

是的，绝对是。

1:19:25 I’ve recently become a fan actually of Larissa Volokhonsky and Richard Pervear.

我最近成为了拉里萨·沃洛洪斯基（Larissa Volokhonsky）和理查德·珀维尔（Richard Pervear）的粉丝。

They’re these world-famous translators of Russian literature, Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Chekov, Pushkin, Bulgakov, Pasternak.

他们是世界著名的俄罗斯文学翻译家：托尔斯泰、陀思妥耶夫斯基、契诃夫、普希金、布尔加科夫、帕斯捷尔纳克。

They’ve helped me understand just how much of an art form translation really is.

他们帮助我了解了艺术形式翻译的真正意义。

Some authors do that art more translatable than others, like Dostoevsky is more translatable, but then you can still spend a week on one sentence.

有些作者认为艺术比其他人更容易翻译，比如陀思妥耶夫斯基更容易翻译，但你仍然可以花一周的时间在一个句子上。

Yeah.

是的。

Just how do I exactly capture this very important sentence?

我该如何准确捕捉这句非常重要的句子呢？

1:19:55 But I think what’s more powerful is not literature, but conversation, which is one of the reasons I’ve been carrying and feeling the responsibility of having conversations with Russian speakers because I can still see the music of it, I can still see the wit of it.

但我认为更强大的不是文学，而是对话，这是我一直承担并感受到与俄语使用者对话的责任的原因之一，因为我仍然可以看到它的音乐，我仍然可以看到它的智慧。

1:20:22 And in conversation comes out really interesting kinds of wisdom.

在谈话中会产生非常有趣的智慧。

When I listen to world leaders that speak Russian speak, and I see the translation, and it loses the irony.

当我听世界领导人讲俄语时，我看到翻译，它就失去了讽刺意味。

In between the words, if you translate them literally, you lose the reference in there to the history of the peoples.

在这些词之间，如果你按字面翻译它们，你就会失去其中对人民历史的参考。

Yeah, for sure.

是的，当然。

1:20:53 And I’ve definitely seen that on, and if you listen to, I think it probably was a Putin speech or something, and you just see that, “Oh wow, something major is being lost in translation.” You can actually see it happen.

我肯定已经看到了，如果你听的话，我认为这可能是普京的演讲或其他什么，你只会看到，“哦，哇，一些重要的东西在翻译中丢失了。”你实际上可以看到它发生。

I wouldn’t be surprised if that wasn’t the case with that whole greatest tragedy as the fall of the Soviet Union that I hear him being quoted as saying all the time.

如果我一直听到他引用他所说的苏联解体这样的最大悲剧，情况并非如此，我不会感到惊讶。

I bet you there’s something in there that’s being lost in translation that is interesting.

我敢打赌，其中有一些有趣的东西在翻译中丢失了。

I think the thing I see the most lost in translation is the humor.

我认为翻译中最令我迷失的是幽默。

I’ll just say that that was tangibly the hardest part about learning the language is that humor comes last and you have to wait.

我只想说，这显然是学习语言最困难的部分，幽默是最后出现的，你必须等待。

1:21:25 You have to wait that whole year or however long it takes you to learn the language to be able to start getting the humor.

你必须等待一整年，或者不管你需要花多长时间来学习语言才能开始获得幽默。

Some of it comes through, but you miss so much nuance and that was really difficult in interaction with people to just be the guy when there’s humor going on and you’re totally oblivious to it.

其中一些是可以实现的，但你会错过很多细微差别，而且在与人互动时，当有幽默发生而你完全没有注意到它时，要成为那个人真的很困难。

Yeah, everybody’s laughing and you’re like trying to laugh along.

是的，每个人都在笑，你也想跟着笑。

1:21:50 What did they make of you?

他们对你有什么看法？

To be honest-

老实说——

This person that came from, descended upon us.

这个人从哪里来，降临到我们身上。

Totally.

完全。

All full of love.

都充满了爱。

If I had a nickel for every time I heard like, “Oh, Americans suck, but you’re a good American.

如果我每次听到这样的话就能得到五分钱：“哦，美国人很糟糕，但你是一个很好的美国人。

1:22:06 You’re the only good American I’ve ever met.” But then of course they never met.

你是我见过的唯一一个好美国人。”但当然他们从未见过面。

Yeah, exactly.

是的，完全正确。

1:22:13 You’re the only one.

你是唯一的一个。

But I think because I was just tried to work hard, tried to be more useful than I was during all that, they all…

但我想，因为我只是努力工作，努力变得比以前更有用，所以他们都……

1:22:16 I think it was pretty appreciated me out there.

我认为他们非常感激我。

I’ve definitely heard that a lot, so that’s nice.

我肯定听过很多次了，所以这很好。

Can you talk about their way of life?

你能谈谈他们的生活方式吗？

1:22:33 So, when you’re doing fur trapping-

所以，当你进行毛皮捕获时-

Fur trapping was an interesting experience.

捕捉毛皮是一次有趣的经历。

1:22:39 Basically, what you do in October or something, you’ll go out to a hunting cabin and you’ll have three hunting cabins.

基本上，你在十月做什么，你会去一个狩猎小屋，你会拥有三个狩猎小屋。

You’ll go stock them with noodles or whatever it is.

你会用面条或者其他什么东西来储备它们。

And then, for the next couple months or however long, you’ll go from one cabin.

然后，在接下来的几个月或无论多久，你都会离开一间小屋。

Usually, the guys are just out there doing this on their own.

通常，这些人只是自己在外面做这件事。

1:23:00 So, they’ll go out, and they’ll go from one cabin, and each cabin will have five or six trap lines going out of it.

所以，他们会出去，他们会从一个小屋出去，每个小屋都会有五到六条陷阱线从里面出来。

Every day, it’ll take a half a day to walk to the end of your trap line, open all the traps and a half a day to get back.

每天，你需要花半天的时间走到你的陷阱线的尽头，打开所有的陷阱，然后再花半天的时间返回。

And they’ll do that.

他们会这么做的。

They’ll spend a week at a cabin, open up all the traps, and then it’ll take a day to hike over to the other cabin.

他们会在一个小屋里呆上一周，打开所有的陷阱，然后需要一天的时间才能徒步到另一个小屋。

1:23:19 Go to that one, open up all those traps, and then there, and then three weeks later or so, they’ll end up back at the first cabin, and then check all the traps.

去那个，打开所有的陷阱，然后在那里，然后大约三周后，他们最终会回到第一个小屋，然后检查所有的陷阱。

And so, it’s that rhythm.

所以，这就是节奏。

And they’ll do that for a couple, few months during the winter.

他们会在冬天这样做几个月。

And you’re trapping sable, they’re called sable, like Pine Martin is what we would have the equivalent of over here.

你正在捕捉紫貂，它们被称为紫貂，就像我们这里的松马丁一样。

What is it?

它是什么？

It’s like a weasel, a furry little weasel.

它就像一只黄鼠狼，一只毛茸茸的小黄鼠狼。

1:23:41 And they make coats out of it.

他们用它制作外套。

When I went, he showed me how to open the trap, showed me the ropes, gave me a topographical map.

当我去的时候，他教我如何打开陷阱，给我看了绳子，给了我一张地形图。

There’s one cabin, there’s the other.

有一间小屋，还有另一间。

And we parted ways for five weeks.

我们分道扬镳了五个星期。

We did run into each other once in the middle there at a cabin.

我们确实在中间的一间小屋里遇到过一次。

But other than that, you’re just off by yourself hoping to shoot a grouse or something to add to your noodles, and make your meal better or catch a fish.

但除此之外，你只是希望自己能射到一只松鸡或其他东西来添加到你的面条中，让你的饭菜更好吃或者钓到一条鱼。

And then working really hard, trying not to get lost and stuff.

然后非常努力地工作，尽量不要迷路之类的。

How do you get from one trap location to the next?

如何从一个陷阱位置到达下一个陷阱位置？

That’s funny because it was both basically by landmarks and feel.

这很有趣，因为它基本上都是由地标和感觉决定的。

1:24:16 I didn’t have compass and things like that.

我没有指南针之类的东西。

By feel.

凭感觉。

1:24:23 Okay.

好的。

I got myself into trouble once, and the first time I went to one cabin, I got myself into trouble.

我曾经给自己惹过麻烦，第一次去一个小屋时，我就给自己惹上了麻烦。

1:24:25 First time I went to the other cabin, I nailed it.

我第一次去另一个小屋时，我就成功了。

And so, I had two different experiences on my first trip, but the one that I nailed it, I remember I had to go and it’s like a day hike.

因此，我在第一次旅行中经历了两种不同的经历，但我成功的那一次，我记得我必须去，就像一日徒步一样。

I was like, “Well, I know the cabin south, and so if I just walk south, the sun should be on the left in the morning, and right in front of me in the middle of the day, and by evening it should end up at my right.”

我当时想，“好吧，我知道小屋朝南，所以如果我向南走，太阳应该在早上在我的左边，在中午在我的正前方，到了晚上它应该在我的右边。”

1:24:53 And just guess what time it is and follow along.

猜猜现在是什么时间，然后跟着走。

And it takes all day and I kid you not, I ended up a hundred yards from the cabin.

这花了一整天的时间，我没有骗你，我最终到达了距离小屋一百码的地方。

I was like, “Whoa, this is the trail and that’s the cabin,” like, “Oh, amazing.” And then, the other time I went out and I was heading over the mountains and I thought hours had passed.

我当时想，“哇，这是小路，那是小屋，”就像，“哦，太棒了。”然后，有一次我出去翻山越岭，我以为已经过去了几个小时。

I probably had gotten slightly lost, and then I thought I was halfway there.

我可能有点迷路了，然后我以为我已经成功了一半。

1:25:20 So, I thought, “Okay, I’m going to sit down and cook some food, get a drink.

所以，我想，“好吧，我要坐下来煮点食物，喝点东西。

I’m thirsty.” So, I sat down, and went to start a fire, and my matches had gotten all wet because the snow had fallen on me, and soaked me, and I didn’t have them wrapped in plastic.

我渴了。”于是，我坐下来生火，我的火柴都湿了，因为雪落在我身上，把我淋湿了，而且我没有用塑料包裹它们。

I was like, “Oh no, I can’t drink water.” So, I was like, “Well, I’m just going to power through.”

我当时想，“哦，不，我不能喝水。”所以，我想，“好吧，我只是要坚持下去。”

1:25:38 I’m halfway there where I kept hiking and then I realized it was getting night.

我一直徒步旅行到半路，然后我意识到天色已晚。

And then, I even realized I was at the halfway point because I saw this rock.

然后，我什至意识到我已经走到了一半，因为我看到了这块岩石。

I was like, “Oh no, that’s the halfway point.” I was like, “I can’t do this.” And so, I need to go get water.

我当时想，“哦不，那是中间点。”我当时想，“我不能这样做。”所以，我需要去取水。

I ended up having to divert down the mountain and head to the water.

我最终不得不下山前往水边。

There was a whole ordeal.

这是一场严酷的考验。

1:25:57 I had to take my skis off because I was going through an old forest fire burn, so they were all really close trees, but then the snow was like this deep.

我不得不脱掉滑雪板，因为我正在经历一场古老的森林火灾，所以它们都是非常接近的树木，但雪却这么深。

So, I was just trudging through and just wishing a bear would eat me, get it over with.

所以，我只是艰难地走过，只是希望一只熊能吃掉我，结束这一切。

But I finally made it down to the water, chopped a hole through the ice, I was able to take a sip.

但我终于下到了水里，在冰上凿了一个洞，我可以喝一口。

So, you were severely dehydrated?

那么，你严重脱水了吗？

Severely dehydrated and I-

严重脱水并且我-

Exhausted.

筋疲力尽。

Exhausted.

筋疲力尽的。

Cold.

寒冷的。

Cold.

寒冷的。

1:26:20 You feel nervous.

你感到紧张。

You’re in over your head.

你已经不知所措了。

And then, I got down to the river, chopped a hole in the ice, drink it, hiked up the river and eventually got to the other cabin.

然后，我走到河边，在冰上凿了一个洞，喝了它，沿着河往上走，最终到达了另一个小屋。

It was probably 3:00 in the morning or something.

大概是凌晨 3:00 左右。

So, you chopped a hole in the ice to drink?

那么，你在冰块上凿一个洞来喝吗？

To get some water.

去拿点水。

1:26:34 I was like-

我当时就像——

Was this got to be one of the worst days of your life?

这一定是你一生中最糟糕的日子之一吗？

It was a bad day, for sure.

这无疑是糟糕的一天。

1:26:41 I’ve had a few.

我有过一些。

It was a bad day.

这是糟糕的一天。

And here’s what was funny is I got to the cabin at 3:00 in the morning and I should have brushed over a lot of the misery that I had felt.

有趣的是，我在凌晨 3:00 到达了小屋，我本应该忘掉我所感受到的很多痛苦。

And I laid down, I was about to go to sleep, and then Yura charges in from there.

我躺了下来，正要睡觉，然后尤拉从那里冲了过来。

I was like, “Whoa, dude, what are you doing?” And I was like, “How’s it going?”

我当时想，“哇，伙计，你在做什么？”我当时想，“怎么样？”

1:27:03 He said, “Oh, it sucks.” And you laid down and just fell asleep.

他说：“噢，真糟糕。”然后你躺下就睡着了。

I fell asleep and I was like…

我睡着了，我就像……

Oh, that’s funny.

哦，这很有趣。

The last few weeks that we’ve been apart, who knows what he went through, who knows why he was there at that time at night, all just summarized and it sucked.

我们分开的最后几周，谁知道他经历了什么，谁知道他为什么晚上那个时候在那里，所有这些都只是总结，很糟糕。

And we went to sleep, and the next morning we parted ways and who knows what.

然后我们就去睡觉了，第二天早上我们就分道扬镳了，谁知道会发生什么。

And you didn’t really tell him-

而你并没有真正告诉他——

Never.

从来没有。

1:27:21 Neither of us said what happened.

我们谁也没说发生了什么。

It was just like, “Oh, that’s interesting.”

就像，“哦，这很有趣。”

Yeah.

是的。

1:27:25 And he probably was through similar kinds of things.

他可能也经历过类似的事情。

Who knows?

谁知道？

1:27:29 Yeah.

是的。

What gave you strength in those hours when you’re just going to waste high snow, all of that?

当你准备浪费高雪时，是什么给了你力量？

1:27:30 You’re laughing, but that’s hard.

你在笑，但这很难。

Yeah.

是的。

1:27:44 You know that Russian phrase [foreign language 01:27:48]?

你知道俄语短语[外语01:27:48]吗？

Eyes are afraid, hands do.

眼睛害怕，手害怕。

1:27:50 I’m sure there’s a poetic way to translate that.

我确信有一种诗意的方式来翻译它。

Right.

正确的。

1:27:54 It’s like just put one foot in front of the other.

就像把一只脚放在另一只脚前面一样。

When you think about what you have to do, it’s really intimidating, but you just know if I just do it, if I just do it, if I just keep trudging, eventually I’ll get there.

当你想到你必须做的事情时，这真的很令人恐惧，但你知道我是否只是去做，如果我只是去做，如果我继续跋涉，最终我会到达那里。

And pretty soon you realize, “Oh, I’ve covered a couple kilometers.” And so, when you’re really in it in those moments, I guess you’re just putting your head down and getting through.

很快你就会意识到，“哦，我已经走了几公里了。”所以，当你真正沉浸在那些时刻时，我想你只是低下头去度过。

I’ve had similar moments.

我也有过类似的时刻。

1:28:16 There’s wisdom to that.

这是有智慧的。

Just take it one step at a time.

一次只迈出一步。

One step at a time.

一次一步。

1:28:21 I think that a lot.

我想了很多。

Honestly, I tell myself that a lot when I’m about to do something really hard, just [foreign language 01:28:26], one step at a time.

老实说，当我要做一些非常困难的事情时，我经常告诉自己，只是[外语01:28:26]，一次一步。

I’m just going to get…

我只是要得到……

Don’t sit there and think, “Oh, that’s a long ways.” Just go, and then you’ll look back and you covered a bunch of ground.

不要坐在那里想：“哦，那是很长的路。”走吧，然后你回头一看，你已经走过了一大堆土地。

One of the things I’ve realized that was helpful in the jungle, that was one of the biggest realizations for me is it really sucks right now.

我意识到在丛林中很有帮助的事情之一，对我来说最大的认识之一是它现在真的很糟糕。

1:28:37 But when I look back at the end of the day, I won’t really remember exactly how much it sucked.

但当我一天结束时回想起来，我真的记不清到底有多糟糕了。

I have a vague notion of it sucking and I’ll remember the good things.

我有一种模糊的感觉，它很糟糕，我会记住美好的事情。

So, being dehydrated, I’ll remember drinking water, and I won’t really remember the hours of feeling like shit.

所以，脱水时，我会记得喝水，而不会真正记得感觉糟糕的时间。

That’s absolutely true.

这绝对是真的。

1:29:09 It’s so funny how just awareness of that, having been through it and then being aware of it means next time you face it, you’ll be like, “You know what, once this is over, I’m going to look back on it and it’s going to be like that and nothing.” And I’ll actually laugh about it and think it was…

有趣的是，意识到这一点，经历过它，然后意识到它意味着下次你面对它时，你会说，“你知道吗，一旦这一切结束，我会回顾它，它会像那样，什么都没有。”我真的会笑并认为这是......

It’s the thing I’ll remember.

这是我会记住的事情。

1:29:25 I remember that story of that miserable day going down to the ice and I can smile about it now.

我记得那段悲惨的日子落入冰层的故事，现在我可以微笑起来。

And now that I know that, I can be in a miserable position and realize that that’s what the outcome will be once it’s over.

现在我知道了这一点，我可能会处于一个悲惨的境地，并意识到一旦结束就会有这样的结果。

It’s just going to be a story.

这只是一个故事。

If you survive though.

如果你能活下来的话。

If you survive and that can be-

如果你活了下来，那可能是——

So, you mentioned you’ve learned about hunger during these times.

所以，你提到你在这段时间了解了饥饿。

1:29:42 When was the hungriest you’ve gotten that you remember?

你记忆中最饿的时候是什么时候？

It was the first time.

这是第一次。

1:29:49 So, to continue the story slightly, I went fur trapping with that guy.

所以，为了稍微继续这个故事，我和那个家伙一起去捕捉毛皮。

And then, it turned out all his cousins were these native nomadic reindeer herders.

然后，原来他所有的表兄弟都是这些当地的游牧驯鹿牧民。

And after I earned his trust, and he liked me a lot, he took me out to his cousins who were all these nomads living in teepees.

在我赢得了他的信任并且他非常喜欢我之后，他带我去见他的表兄弟，他们都是住在圆锥形帐篷里的游牧民族。

I was like, “This is awesome.

我当时想，“这太棒了。

I didn’t even know people still lived like this.”

我什至不知道人们仍然这样生活。”

1:30:10 And they were really open and welcoming because their cousin just brought me out there and vouched for me.

他们非常开放和热情，因为他们的表弟刚刚带我出去并为我担保。

But it was during fencing season and fencing in Siberia for those reindeer is an incredible thing.

但当时正值击剑季节，在西伯利亚击剑对于那些驯鹿来说是一件不可思议的事情。

You take an axe, you go out and you just build these 30-kilometer loop fences with just logs interlocking.

你拿着一把斧子，出去，用圆木联锁建造这些 30 公里长的环形围栏。

It’s tons of work.

这是大量的工作。

And all these guys are more efficient bodies, they’re better at it.

所有这些人都是更有效率的身体，他们更擅长。

1:30:36 And I’m just working less efficiently and also a lot bigger dude, but we’re all just on the same rations kind of.

我只是工作效率较低，而且个子也大得多，但我们的口粮都是一样的。

And I got down that.

我明白了。

I was like 155 pounds getting down pretty dang skinny for my 6’3″ frame and just working really hard.

我的体重大约为 155 磅，对于我 6 英尺 3 英寸的身材来说，我的体重相当瘦，而且我非常努力地工作。

And in the spring in Siberia, there’s not much to forage.

在西伯利亚的春天，没有太多东西可以觅食。

In the fall, you can have pine nuts and this and that, but in the spring, you’re just stuck with whatever random food you’ve got.

在秋天，你可以吃松子和这个那个，但在春天，你只能吃任何随机的食物。

1:31:02 And so, that’s where I lost the most weight, and felt the most hungry, and I had a lot of other issues.

所以，这是我减重最多、感觉最饿的地方，而且我还有很多其他问题。

I was new to that type of work.

我对这类工作很陌生。

And so, working as hard as I could, but also making mistakes, chopping myself with the axe and getting injured, all kinds of stuff.

因此，我尽我所能地努力工作，但也会犯错误，用斧头砍伤自己，受伤，各种各样的事情。

So, injuries plus very low calorie intake.

因此，受伤加上卡路里摄入量非常低。

Low, yeah.

低，是的。

And exhausted.

并且筋疲力尽。

I remember if you got…

我记得如果你有……

1:31:27 You were this poor son of a gun to get stuck slicing the bread, you’re here cutting the bread and somebody throws all the spoons and drops the pot of soup there.

你真是个可怜的混蛋，在切面包时被卡住了，你在这里切面包，有人把所有的勺子都扔了，一锅汤也掉在那里。

And it’s like before you can even done slicing, you slice all the meats like gone from the bowl.

就像在你完成切片之前，你就把所有的肉都切掉了，就像从碗里消失一样。

Everybody else has grabbed the spoon in midair and you’re just like, “Ah.” Hoping this one little noodle is going to give me a lot of nourishment.

其他人都抓住了半空中的勺子，而你只是说，“啊。”希望这一小小面条能给我带来很多营养。

Wow.

哇。

1:31:50 So, everybody gets, I mean, yeah, first come, first serve I guess.

所以，我想每个人都会得到，是的，先到先得。

Because it’s like all the dudes out there working on the fence.

因为就像所有的人都在栅栏上工作一样。

So, you mentioned the axe and you gave me a present.

所以，你提到了斧子，还给了我一份礼物。

1:31:58 This is probably the most badass present I’ve ever gotten.

这可能是我收到过的最棒的礼物了。

So, tell me the story of this axe.

那么，请告诉我这把斧头的故事。

So, the natives, when I got there, I grew up on a farm.

所以，当地人，当我到达那里时，我是在农场长大的。

1:32:10 I thought I was pretty good with an axe, but they do tons of work with those things and I really grew to love their type of axe, their style of axe, and just an axe in general.

我以为我很擅长使用斧头，但他们在这些东西上做了很多工作，我真的越来越喜欢他们的斧头类型，他们的斧头风格，以及一般的斧头。

They’d always say it’s the one tool you need to survive in the wilderness and I agree.

他们总是说这是你在荒野中生存所需的唯一工具，我同意。

Because this one has certain design features that the natives…

因为这个具有某些当地人的设计特征......

That was unique to the Evenki, key to the natives I was with.

这是鄂温克人独有的，也是我身边的当地人的关键。

1:32:37 One is with these Russian heads or the Soviet heads, whatever they had, they’re a little wider on top here.

一种是这些俄罗斯的头或苏联的头，无论它们有什么，它们的顶部都宽一点。

Meaning, you can put the handle through from the top like a tomahawk, and that means you’re not dealing with a wedge.

这意味着，您可以像战斧一样从顶部插入手柄，这意味着您处理的不是楔子。

And if it ever loosens and you’re swinging, it only gets tighter.

如果它松动而你摆动，它只会变得更紧。

It doesn’t fly off.

它不会飞走。

And so, that’s something that’s cool.

所以，这很酷。

What they do that’s unique is, so you can see, this is the wolverine axe.

他们所做的独特之处在于，所以你可以看到，这就是狼獾斧头。

So, it’s got the little wolverine head in honor of the wolverine I fought on the show.

所以，它有一个小金刚狼头，以纪念我在节目中对抗的金刚狼。

So, you have actually two axes.

所以，你实际上有两个轴。

1:33:12 This is one of the smaller.

这是较小的之一。

This is a little smaller.

这个有点小。

1:33:15 I didn’t want to make it too small because you need something to actually work out there.

我不想把它弄得太小，因为你需要一些东西才能在那里实际锻炼。

You need something kind of serious.

你需要一些严肃的事情。

But then they sharpen it from one side.

但随后他们从一侧锐化它。

So, if you’re right-handed, you sharpen it from the right side.

所以，如果你是右撇子，你就从右侧磨刀。

And that means when you’re in the woods and living, there’s a lot of times whether you’re making a table, or a sleigh, or an axe handle or whatever you’re doing, that you’re holding the wood and doing this work.

这意味着当你在树林里生活时，很多时候，无论你是在制作一张桌子、雪橇、斧头把手还是其他任何你正在做的事情，你都会拿着木头做这项工作。

1:33:36 And it makes it really good for that planing.

这对于规划来说真的很有好处。

The other thing it is, especially in northern woods, all the trees are like this big.

另一件事是，尤其是在北方的树林里，所有的树都这么大。

You’re never cutting down a big giant tree.

你永远不会砍倒一棵大树。

And so, when you swing with a single sided axe like this, sharpen from the one side, with your right-hand swing like this, it really bites into the wood and gives you a…

所以，当你像这样用单面斧头挥杆时，从一侧磨尖，用你的右手像这样挥杆，它真的会咬进木头，给你一个……

Because with that, if you can picture it, that angle is going to cause deflection.

因为这样的话，如果你能想象得到，那个角度就会导致偏转。

1:34:02 And without that angle on your right hand and swing, it just bites in there like crazy.

如果你的右手和挥杆没有那个角度，它就会疯狂地咬在那里。

And so, that, there’s other little…

所以，还有其他一些……

The handle is made by some Amish guys in Canada.

手柄是由加拿大的一些阿米什人制作的。

This is all hand forged by-

这都是手工锻造的——

Its hand forged.

其手工锻造。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah, looking-

是的，正在寻找——

And so, it’s a pretty sweet little axe.

所以，这是一把非常可爱的小斧头。

Yeah, it’s amazing.

是的，太棒了。

There’s other thing, I slightly rounded this pole here.

还有一件事，我在这里稍微圆了这根杆子。

1:34:22 It’s just a little nuance because when you pound a stake in, if you picture it, if it’s convex, when you’re pounding it, it’s going to blow the fibers apart.

这只是一点细微差别，因为当你敲击一根木桩时，如果你想象它，如果它是凸形的，当你敲击它时，它会把纤维吹散。

If it has just a slight concave, it helps hold the fibers together.

如果它只有一个轻微的凹面，它有助于将纤维固定在一起。

And so, it’s a little nuance, not too flat because you want to still be able to use the back as you would.

所以，它有一点细微差别，不要太平坦，因为你希望仍然能够像你一样使用背面。

What kind of stuff are you using the axe for?

你用斧子做什么？

So, the axe is super important to chop through ice in a winter situation, which you probably hopefully won’t need.

因此，在冬季，斧头对于砍冰非常重要，但您可能不需要它。

1:34:46 But what I use an axe all the time for is when it’s wet, and rainy, and you need to start a fire.

但我一直使用斧头的时候是潮湿、下雨的时候，你需要生火。

It’s hard to get to the middle of dry wood if just a knife or a saw.

如果只是用刀或锯，很难到达干木的中间。

And so, I can go out there, find a dead tall tree, a dead standing tree, chop it down, split it apart, split it open, get to the dry wood on the inside, shave it some little curls and have a fire going pretty fast.

所以，我可以出去，找到一棵死掉的高树，一棵死掉的直立树，把它砍倒，把它劈开，把它劈开，找到里面的干木头，把它剃掉一些小卷曲，然后让火烧得很快。

1:35:20 And so, if I have an axe, I feel always confident that I can get a quick fire in whatever weather and I wouldn’t feel the same without it in that regard.

因此，如果我有一把斧子，我总是有信心在任何天气下都能快速生火，而如果没有它，我就不会有同样的感觉。

So, that’s the main thing.

所以，这是主要的事情。

Of course, you can use it.

当然，你可以使用它。

I use it if you’re taking an animal apart or if you’re…

如果你要拆散动物或者如果你……我会使用它。

All kinds of, what else?

各种都有，还有什么？

Building a shelter, skinning teepee poles or whatever you’re doing.

建造避难所、剥削圆锥形帐篷杆或任何你正在做的事情。

What’s the use of a saw versus an axe?

锯子和斧头有什么用？

I greatly prefer an axe.

我非常喜欢斧头。

1:35:47 A saw though has…

一把锯子虽然有……

Its value goes up quite a bit when you’re in hardwoods.

当你在硬木中时，它的价值会上升很多。

When you’re in a hardwood oaks, and hickory and things like that, they’re a lot harder to chop.

当你在硬木橡树、山核桃木和类似的东西上时，它们更难砍伐。

So, a saw is pretty nice in those situations, I’d say.

所以，我想说，在这些情况下，锯子非常好用。

In those situations, I’d like to have both in the north woods and in more coniferous forests.

在这种情况下，我希望在北部树林和更多的针叶林中都有。

1:36:11 I don’t think there’s enough advantages that a saw incurs.

我认为锯子没有足够的优势。

With a good axe, you’ll see people with little camp axes, and stuff, and they just don’t think they like axes.

有了一把好斧头，你会看到有人拿着小营地斧头之类的东西，但他们只是认为自己不喜欢斧头。

It’s like, “Well, you haven’t actually tried to…” Try a good one first and get good with it.

就像是，“好吧，你实际上并没有尝试过……”先尝试一个好的，然后做好它。

The one thing about an axe, they’re dangerous.

关于斧头的一件事是，它们很危险。

So, you need to practice, always control it with two hands, make sure you know where it’s going to go.

所以，你需要练习，总是用两只手控制它，确保你知道它要去哪里。

1:36:30 It doesn’t hit you, or when you’re chopping, like say you’re creating something that you’re not doing it on rocks and stuff so that you’re doing it on top of wood so that when you’re hitting the ground, you’re not dulling your axe.

它不会击中你，或者当你砍伐时，比如你正在创造一些你不是在岩石和其他东西上做的东西，所以你是在木头上做的，这样当你撞击地面时，你就不会钝化你的斧头。

You got to be a little bit thoughtful about it.

你必须考虑一下。

Have you ever injured yourself with an axe in the early days?

您早期曾被斧头割伤过吗？

Yeah.

是的。

1:36:46 So, I had gotten a knee surgery and then about three months later, had torn my ACL.

所以，我接受了膝盖手术，大约三个月后，我的前十字韧带撕裂了。

I went over to Russia and I was like, “Well, I got a good knee.

我去了俄罗斯，我当时想，“好吧，我的膝盖很好。

It’s okay.” And then, that’s when I was building that fence that first time.

没关系。”然后，那是我第一次建造栅栏的时候。

And at one point, I chopped my rubber boot with my axe because it reflected off and I was new to them.

有一次，我用斧子砍了我的橡胶靴，因为它反射了，而我对它们来说是新手。

And I was really frustrated because I’d done it before.

我真的很沮丧，因为我以前也这么做过。

1:37:12 And the native guy was like, “Oh, I think there’s a boot we left.” A few years ago, we left a boot four kilometers that way.

当地人说：“哦，我想我们留下了一只靴子。”几年前，我们把一只靴子留在了那条四公里的地方。

So, we got the reindeer, took him, rode him over.

所以，我们找到了驯鹿，带了他，骑了他过去。

Sure enough, there’s a stump with a boot upside down, pull it off, put it on.

果然，有一个树桩，靴子倒置了，把它拔下来，穿上。

I was like, “Sweet.

我当时想，“亲爱的。

I’m back in business.” I went back a couple of days later, pting, chum, chopped it, cut your foot, cut my rubber boot.

我又回来做生意了。”几天后我回去了，心疼，朋友，砍伤了它，割伤了你的脚，割伤了我的橡胶靴。

1:37:32 And I was just like, “Dang it.” And I was mad enough that I just grabbed the axe, and swung it at the tree, and it just one-handed, and deflected off and bam, right into my knee.

我当时就想，“该死。”我气疯了，抓起斧头，朝树上挥去，但它只是用一只手，就偏转了，砰地一声，直接砸到了我的膝盖上。

Oh no.

哦不。

And I was like, “Oh.” I fell down.

我当时想，“哦。”我摔倒了。

1:37:44 I was like, “Oh my gosh,” because you get your axe really razor sharp, and then just swung it into my knee.

我当时想，“天哪，”因为你的斧子非常锋利，然后就把它挥到了我的膝盖上。

I didn’t even want to look.

我什至不想看。

I was like, “Oh no.” I looked and it wasn’t a huge wound because it had hit right on the bone of my knee, but it split the bone, cut a tendon there, and I was out in the middle of the woods.

我当时想，“哦，不。”我看了看，这不是一个大伤口，因为它正好击中了我的膝盖骨，但它使骨头裂开，割断了那里的肌腱，然后我就在树林中间了。

1:38:00 So, literally, I knew I was in shock because I’m just going to go back to teepee right now.

所以，从字面上看，我知道我很震惊，因为我现在就要回到帐篷里。

So, I ran back to teepee, laid down, and honestly, I was stuck there for a few days.

于是，我跑回圆锥形帐篷，躺了下来，说实话，我被困在那里几天了。

I was in so much pain and my other knee was bad.

我非常痛苦，而且我的另一个膝盖也不好。

It was rough.

很艰难。

I literally couldn’t even walk at all or move.

我什至根本无法行走或移动。

There was a plastic bag, I had to poop in it and roll to the edge of the teepee, shove it under the moss.

有一个塑料袋，我必须在里面拉屎，然后滚到圆锥形帐篷的边缘，把它推到苔藓下面。

I just totally immobilized.

我完全动弹不得。

I guess that should teach you to not act when you’re in a state of frustration or anger.

我想这应该教会你在沮丧或愤怒时不要采取行动。

There you go.

就这样吧。

1:38:32 It’s such a lesson too.

这也是一个教训。

There were so many of those and I was always in a little bit over my head, but like I said, you do that enough and you make a lot of mistakes, but every time you learn.

其中有很多，我总是有点难以理解，但就像我说的，你做得足够多，你会犯很多错误，但每次你都会学到东西。

Now, it’s like an extension of my arm.

现在，它就像我手臂的延伸。

That’s not going to happen because I just know how it works now.

这不会发生，因为我现在知道它是如何运作的。

You mentioned wet wood.

你提到了湿木头。

1:38:50 How do you start a fire when everything’s around you is wet?

当你周围的一切都是湿的时，你如何生火？

It depends on your environment, but I will say in most of the forests that I spend a lot of time in, all the north woods, the best thing you can do is find a dead standing tree.

这取决于你的环境，但我会说，在我呆了很多时间的大多数森林中，所有北方森林，你能做的最好的事情就是找到一棵枯死的直立树。

1:38:57 So, it can be down pouring rain, and you chop that tree down and then when you split it open, no matter how much it’s been raining, it’ll be dry on the inside.

所以，可能会下倾盆大雨，你把那棵树砍倒，然后当你把它劈开时，无论下多少雨，里面都是干的。

So, chop that tree down, chop a piece, a foot long piece out, and then split that thing open and then split it again.

所以，砍倒那棵树，砍下一块，一英尺长的一块，然后把那东西劈开，然后再劈开。

1:39:24 And then, you get to that inner dry wood, and then you try to do this maybe under a spruce tree or under your own body so that it’s not getting rained on while you’re doing it.

然后，你到达内部的干木头，然后你尝试在云杉树下或你自己的身体下这样做，这样你在做的时候就不会被雨淋到。

Make a bunch of little curls that’ll catch a flame or light, and then you make a lot more kindling and little pieces of dry wood than you think, because what’ll happen, you’ll light it and it’ll burn through and like, “Dang it.”

制作一束小卷发，可以捕捉火焰或光线，然后你会制作比你想象的更多的引火物和小块干木头，因为会发生什么，你会点燃它，它会烧穿，然后就像，“该死的。”

1:39:46 So, just be patient, you’re going to be fine.

所以，只要耐心点，你就会没事的。

Make a nice pile of curls that you can light or spark and then get a lot of good dry kindling.

制作一堆漂亮的卷发，你可以点燃或发出火花，然后得到很多好的干燥引火物。

And then, don’t be afraid to just boom, boom, boom, pile a bunch of wood on and make a big old fire.

然后，不要害怕只是繁荣，繁荣，繁荣，堆一堆木头并生起大火。

Get warm as fast as you can.

尽快取暖。

It’s amazing how much that of a recharge it is when you’re cold and wet.

当你又冷又湿的时候，它的充电效果是惊人的。

You can throw relatively wet wood on top of that.

你可以在上面扔相对湿的木头。

Once you get that going, yeah, then it’ll dry as it goes.

一旦你开始这样做，是的，然后它就会变干。

1:40:09 But you need to be able to split open and get all that nice dry wood on the inside.

但你需要能够打开并取出里面所有漂亮的干木头。

I saw that you mentioned that you look for fat wood.

我看到你提到你要寻找肥木。

1:40:18 What’s a fat wood?

什么是肥木？

So, on a lot of pine trees, a place where the tree was injured when it was alive, it pumps sap to it.

所以，在很多松树上，当树活着时受伤的地方，它会向它泵出汁液。

1:40:23 And this is a good point because I use this a lot.

这是一个很好的观点，因为我经常使用它。

It pumps that tree full of sap and then years later the tree dies, dries out, rots away.

它让那棵树充满了汁液，几年后，这棵树就死了、干了、腐烂了。

But that sap infused wood, it’s like turpentine in there.

但是注入树液的木材，就像里面的松节油一样。

It’s oily.

很油腻。

And so, if it gets wet, you can still light it.

因此，如果它弄湿了，您仍然可以点燃它。

It repulses water.

它排斥水。

1:40:51 And so, if you can find that in a rainstorm, you can just make a little pile of those shavings, get the crappiest spark or quickest light, and it’ll sit there and burn like a factory fire starter.

所以，如果你能在暴风雨中发现这一点，你可以把这些刨花堆起来，得到最蹩脚的火花或最快的光，它就会坐在那里像工厂的点火器一样燃烧。

It’s really, really nice.

真的非常非常好。

That’s good to spot.

这很好发现。

It’s a good thing to keep your eye out for.

保持警惕是一件好事。

Yeah, it’s really fascinating.

是的，这真的很有趣。

1:41:09 And then, you make this thing.

然后，你就制作了这个东西。

That’s just to get the sauna going fast.

这只是为了让桑拿快速进行。

1:41:12 That was just doing that.

那只是这样做而已。

What was that?

那是什么？

1:41:17 That was oil?

那是石油吗？

It just used motor oil I had, if you mix it with some sawdust and then now, the sauna is going just like that.

它只是使用了我的机油，如果你将它与一些锯末混合，然后现在，桑拿就这样进行。

1:41:19 It’s like homemade fat wood.

就像自制的肥木一样。

I don’t know how many times I’ve watched Happy People, A Year in the Taiga by Werner Herzog.

我不知道看了多少遍沃纳·赫尔佐格的《快乐的人，针叶林的一年》。

1:41:28 You’ve talked about this movie.

你已经谈论过这部电影了。

Where is that located relative to where you were?

相对于您所在的位置，它位于哪里？

So, there’s this big river called the Yenisei that feeds through the middle of Russia and there’s a bunch of tributaries off of it.

So, there’s this big river called the Yenisei that feeds through the middle of Russia and there’s a bunch of tributaries off of it.

1:41:40 And one of the tributaries is called the Podkammennaya Tunguska.

其中一条支流称为通古斯河。

And I was up that river and just a little ways north is another river called the Bakhta, and that’s where that village is where they filmed Happy People.

我在那条河上游，向北不远就是另一条叫做巴赫塔的河流，那个村庄就是他们拍摄《快乐的人》的地方。

So, in Siberian terms, we’re neighbors.

所以，用西伯利亚的话来说，我们是邻居。

Nice.

好的。

…

……

1:42:00 in terms, we’re neighbors.

就而言，我们是邻居。

Nice.

好的。

Similar environment, similar place, that for a trapper that I was with, knew the guy in the films.

Similar environment, similar place, that for a trapper that I was with, knew the guy in the films.

What would you say about their way of life, maybe in the way you’ve experienced it and the way you saw in happy people?

What would you say about their way of life, maybe in the way you’ve experienced it and the way you saw in happy people?

There’s something really, really powerful about spending that much time, being independent, depending on what we talked about a little earlier.

花那么多时间保持独立确实非常非常强大，这取决于我们之前讨论的内容。

1:42:19 But you’re putting yourself in these situations all the time where you’re uncomfortable, where it’s hard, but then you’re rising to the occasion, you’re making it happen.

但你总是把自己置于这样的境地，让你感到不舒服、困难，但你会挺身而出，让这一切发生。

There’s nobody.

没有人。

When you’re fur-trapping by yourself, there’s nobody else to look at to blame for anything that goes wrong.

When you’re fur-trapping by yourself, there’s nobody else to look at to blame for anything that goes wrong.

It’s just yourself that you’re reliant on.

你所依赖的只是你自己。

1:42:45 And there’s something about the natural rhythms that you are in when you’re that connected to the natural world that really does feel like that’s what we’re designed for.

当你与自然世界如此紧密地联系在一起时，你就会感受到自然的节奏，感觉这就是我们的设计初衷。

And so, there’s a psychological benefit you gain from spending that much time in that realm.

因此，在这个领域花费大量时间会给你带来心理上的好处。

And for that reason, I think that people that are connected to those ways are able to tap into a particular…

And for that reason, I think that people that are connected to those ways are able to tap into a particular…

1:43:12 I noticed it a lot with the natives.

我在当地人身上经常注意到这一点。

So, if I met the natives in the village, I would think of them as unhappy people.

So, if I met the natives in the village, I would think of them as unhappy people.

They drink a lot and always fighting.

他们喝了很多酒，而且总是打架。

The murder rate is through the roof.

谋杀率高得惊人。

The suicide rate’s through the roof.

自杀率高得惊人。

But if you meet those same people out in the woods living that way of life, I thought, these are happy people.

But if you meet those same people out in the woods living that way of life, I thought, these are happy people.

And it’s an interesting juxtaposition to be the same person.

And it’s an interesting juxtaposition to be the same person.

1:43:40 But then, I lived in a native village that had the reindeer herding going on around it, and everybody benefited because of that.

But then, I lived in a native village that had the reindeer herding going on around it, and everybody benefited because of that.

I also went to a native village that they didn’t hold those ways anymore.

I also went to a native village that they didn’t hold those ways anymore.

And so, everybody was just in the village life.

就这样，大家都过着乡村生活。

And it just felt like a dark place.

感觉就像一个黑暗的地方。

Whereas, the other native village, it was rough in the village because everybody drank all the time.

Whereas, the other native village, it was rough in the village because everybody drank all the time.

But it had that escape…

但它有这样的逃脱……

it had that escape valve.

它有那个排气阀。

And then, once you’re out there, it’s just a whole different world.

And then, once you’re out there, it’s just a whole different world.

And it was such an odd juxtaposition.

这是一个如此奇怪的并置。

It’s funny that the people that go trapping experience that happiness and still don’t have a self-awareness to stop themselves from then drinking and doing all the dark stuff when they go to the village.

有趣的是，那些去陷阱的人体验到了这种快乐，但仍然没有自我意识来阻止自己在去村子时喝酒和做所有黑暗的事情。

1:44:08 It’s strange that you’re not able to…

奇怪的是你不能……

you’re in it, you’re happy, but you’re not able to reflect on the nature of that happiness.

你身处其中，你很快乐，但你无法反思这种快乐的本质。

It’s really weird.

真的很奇怪。

1:44:33 I’ve thought about that a lot, and I don’t know the answer.

我想了很多，但我不知道答案。

It’s like there’s a huge draw to comfort.

就好像有一个巨大的吸引力来安慰。

There’s a huge…

有一个巨大的…

and it’s all multifaceted and somewhat complex, because you can be out in the woods and have this really cool life.

and it’s all multifaceted and somewhat complex, because you can be out in the woods and have this really cool life.

1:44:45 I will say it’s a little bit different for men than women, because the men are living the dream as far as what I would like.

我想说，这对于男性和女性来说有点不同，因为男性正在实现我想要的梦想。

So, you’re hunting and fishing and managing reindeer and you got all these adventures.

So, you’re hunting and fishing and managing reindeer and you got all these adventures.

So, what ends up happening is that a lot more guys than young men out there in the woods.

所以，最终发生的事情是，树林里的男人比年轻人多得多。

And so, there’s a draw, also, I think, to go to the village probably to find a woman.

And so, there’s a draw, also, I think, to go to the village probably to find a woman.

And then there’s a draw of technology and the new things.

然后是技术和新事物的吸引。

But then once they’re there, honestly, alcohol becomes so overwhelming that everything else just fiddles away.

但老实说，一旦他们到了那里，酒精就会变得如此势不可挡，以至于其他一切都消失了。

But it’s funny that the comfort you find, there’s a draw to comfort.

但有趣的是，你找到的舒适感，却是一种吸引人的舒适感。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

but once you get to the comfort, once you find the comfort, within that comfort, you become the lesser version of yourself.

but once you get to the comfort, once you find the comfort, within that comfort, you become the lesser version of yourself.

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

1:45:32 Yeah.

是的。

Oh, for sure.

哦，当然。

It’s weird.

这很奇怪。

What a lesson for us.

这对我们来说是一个多么大的教训啊。

We need to keep struggling.

我们需要继续奋斗。

Yeah.

是的。

1:45:39 A lot of times, you have to force yourself in that.

很多时候，你必须强迫自己这么做。

So, if we took them as an example, I mean, a lot of times, he’d drag this drunk guy into the woods, literally just drag him into the woods.

所以，如果我们以他们为例，我的意思是，很多时候，他会把这个喝醉的家伙拖进树林里，字面意思就是把他拖进树林里。

And then he’d sober up.

然后他就清醒了。

And then he was like a month blackout drunk, and now he’s sobered up.

然后他就像喝醉了一个月而昏迷不醒，现在他清醒了。

And now, boom, back into life, back into being a knowledgeable, capable person.

现在，繁荣，重新回到生活中，重新成为一个知识渊博、有能力的人。

And because comfort’s so available to us all, you almost have to force yourself into that situation, plan it out, “Okay, I’m going to go do that.”

因为我们所有人都可以享受舒适，所以你几乎必须强迫自己陷入这种情况，做好计划，“好吧，我要去这么做。”

Do the hard thing.

做困难的事情。

Do that hard thing and then deal with the consequences when I’m there.

做那件困难的事情，然后当我在那里时处理后果。

What do you learn from that on the nature of happiness?

关于幸福的本质，你从中学到了什么？

1:46:13 What does it take to be happy?

怎样才能快乐呢？

Happiness is interesting because it’s complex and multifaceted.

幸福很有趣，因为它是复杂的、多方面的。

1:46:18 It includes a lot of things that are out of your control and a lot of things that are in your control.

它包括很多你无法控制的事情和很多你可以控制的事情。

And it’s quite the moving target in life, you know what I mean?

这是生活中不断变化的目标，你明白我的意思吗？

Yeah.

是的。

So, one of the things that really impacted me when I was a young man, and I read The Gulag Archipelago, was don’t pursue happiness because the ingredients to happiness can be taken from you outside of your control, your health, but pursue spiritual fullness, pursue, I think he words it duty, and then happiness may come alongside.

所以，当我年轻时，我读过《古拉格群岛》时，真正影响我的事情之一就是不要追求幸福，因为幸福的成分可以从你的控制之外、你的健康之外夺走，而是追求精神上的充实，追求，我认为他说这是责任，然后幸福可能会随之而来。

1:46:34 Or it may not.

或者也可能不会。

So, he gives the example that I thought was really interesting.

所以，他举了一个我认为非常有趣的例子。

In the prison camps, everybody’s trying to survive and they’ve made that their ultimate goal, “I will get through this.” And they’ve all basically turned into animals in pursuit of that goal and lying and cheating and stealing.

在战俘营中，每个人都在努力生存，他们将其作为最终目标：“我会度过难关。”为了追求这个目标，他们基本上都变成了动物，撒谎、欺骗和偷窃。

And then he was like, somehow the corrupt Orthodox Church produced these little babushkas who were candles in the middle of all this darkness because they did not allow their soul to get corrupted.

然后他就想，腐败的东正教教会以某种方式产生了这些小头巾，他们是黑暗中的蜡烛，因为他们不允许自己的灵魂被腐蚀。

And he is like, “What they did do is they died.

他说：“他们所做的就是死了。

They all died, but they were lights while they were alive, and lost their lives, but they didn’t lose their souls.” So, for myself, that was really powerful to read and realize that the pursuit of happiness wasn’t exactly what I wanted to aim at.

他们都死了，但生前都是光，失去了生命，但没有失去灵魂。”所以，对我自己来说，读到并意识到追求幸福并不是我真正想要的目标，这真的很强大。

I wanted to aim at living out my life according to love, like we talked about earlier.

我的目标是按照爱来生活，就像我们之前谈到的那样。

Trying to be that candle.

努力成为那根蜡烛。

Trying to be that candle.

努力成为那根蜡烛。

1:47:50 Yeah, make that your ideal.

是的，把它当作你的理想。

And then, in doing so, it was interesting.

然后，这样做很有趣。

So, for me personally, my personal experience of that is I thought when I went to Russia that I gave up…

所以，就我个人而言，我个人的经历是，当我去俄罗斯时，我想我放弃了......

in my 20s, I spent my whole 20s living in teepees and doing all this stuff that I thought, “I should give be getting a job, I should be pursuing a career, I should get an education of some sort.

在我20多岁的时候，我整个20多岁都住在圆锥形帐篷里，做着所有我认为的事情，“我应该去找一份工作，我应该追求一份职业，我应该接受某种教育。

What am I doing for my future?”

我为自己的未来做什么？”

1:48:14 But I felt I knew where my purpose was, I knew what my calling was.

但我觉得我知道我的目的在哪里，我知道我的使命是什么。

I’m just going to do it.

我只是去做而已。

And it sounds glamorous now when I talk about it, but it sucked a lot of the times.

现在当我谈论它时，它听起来很迷人，但很多时候它很糟糕。

And it was a lot of loneliness, a lot of giving up what I wanted, a lot of watching people I cared about.

我感到很孤独，经常放弃自己想要的东西，经常看着我关心的人。

You put all this effort in, and then you just see the people that you put all this effort and just die and this and that, because that happened all the time.

你付出了所有的努力，然后你就会看到那些你付出了所有努力的人却死了，这样那样的事，因为这种事一直在发生。

1:48:36 And then the other thing I thought I gave up was a relationship because you couldn’t…

然后我认为我放弃的另一件事是一段关系，因为你不能……

I wasn’t going to find a partner over there.

我不会在那里找到合作伙伴。

And so, interestingly enough now in life, I can look back and be like, “Whoa, weird.

因此，有趣的是，现在在生活中，我可以回顾过去，然后说：“哇，很奇怪。

Those two things I thought I gave up is where I’ve been almost provided for the most in life.” Now, I have this career guiding people in the wilderness that I love.

我以为我放弃的这两件事几乎是我一生中得到最多的东西。”现在，我的职业是在我热爱的荒野中引导人们。

I genuinely love it.

我真的很喜欢它。

I find purpose in it.

我在其中找到了目的。

I know it’s healthy and good for people.

我知道它对人们健康有益。

And then I have an amazing wife and an amazing family.

然后我有一个很棒的妻子和一个很棒的家庭。

How did that happen?

这是怎么发生的？

But I didn’t exactly aim at it.

但我并没有完全瞄准它。

I consciously, in a way, I mean I hoped it was tangential, but I aimed at something else, which was those lessons I got from the Gulag Archipelago.

我有意识地，在某种程度上，我的意思是我希望它是切线的，但我的目标是其他东西，这就是我从古拉格群岛得到的教训。

Just because you mentioned Gulag Archipelago, I got to go there.

就因为你提到了古拉格群岛，我就必须去那里。

1:49:22 You have some suffering in your family history, whether it’s the Armenian, Assyrian genocide or the Nazi occupation of France.

你的家族历史中经历过一些苦难，无论是亚美尼亚、亚述种族灭绝还是纳粹占领法国。

Maybe, you could tell the story of that, the survival thing, it runs in your blood, it seems.

也许，你可以讲述这个故事，生存的事情，它似乎流淌在你的血液里。

I love history.

我喜欢历史。

1:49:50 I find so much richness in knowing what other people went through and find so much perspective in my own place in the world.

通过了解其他人的经历，我发现了很多丰富的东西，并且在我自己的世界中找到了很多观点。

I have the advantage of in my direct family, my grandparents, they went through the Armenian genocide.

我的优势在于我的直系亲属，我的祖父母，他们经历了亚美尼亚种族灭绝。

They were Assyrians.

他们是亚述人。

It was a Christian minority, indigenous people in the Middle East.

这是一个基督教少数群体，中东的土著人民。

They lived in Northwestern Iran.

他们住在伊朗西北部。

1:50:12 And during the chaos of World War I, the Ottoman umpire was collapsing and it had all kinds of issues.

在第一次世界大战的混乱时期，奥斯曼帝国的裁判正在崩溃，并出现了各种各样的问题。

And one of its issues was it had a big minority group and it thought it would be a good time to get rid of it.

它的问题之一是它有一个庞大的少数群体，它认为现在是摆脱它的好时机。

And they can justify it in all the ways you can, like, there’s some people that were rebelling or this or that, but ultimately, it was just a big collective guilt and extermination policy against the Armenians and the Assyrians.

他们可以用各种方式来证明这一点，比如，有些人在叛乱，或者这样或那样，但最终，这只是针对亚美尼亚人和亚述人的一项巨大的集体犯罪和灭绝政策。

1:50:44 And my grandparents, my grandma was 13 at the time, and my grandpa was 17, which is interesting.

还有我的祖父母，我奶奶当时13岁，我爷爷17岁，这很有趣。

It happened almost 100 years ago, but my dad was born when my grandma was pretty old.

这件事发生在差不多100年前，但我爸爸出生时，我奶奶已经很老了。

But my grandmother, her dad was taken out to be shot.

但我的祖母，她的父亲被带出去枪决了。

The Turks were coming in and rounding up all the men, and they took them out to be shot.

土耳其人进来围捕了所有的人，然后把他们拿出来枪杀。

And then they took my grandma and her.

然后他们带走了我奶奶和她。

She had seven brothers and sisters and her mom.

她有七个兄弟姐妹和她的妈妈。

And they drove her out into the desert, basically.

他们基本上把她赶到了沙漠里。

1:51:21 Her dad got taken out to be shot.

她的父亲被带出去枪决。

So, his name was Shaman Yumara, whatever, took him out.

所以，他的名字叫萨满尤玛拉，无论如何，把他干掉了。

They were all tied up, all shot, needs to say a quick prayer before they shot him.

他们都被绑起来，都被枪杀了，在枪杀他之前需要快速祈祷。

But he fell down and he found he wasn’t hit.

但他摔倒了，发现自己没有被击中。

And usually, of course, they’d come up and stab everybody or finish them off, but there was some kind of an alarm, and all the soldiers rushed off and he found himself in the bodies and was able to untie himself.

当然，通常情况下，他们会过来刺伤所有人或杀死他们，但有某种警报，所有士兵都冲走了，他发现自己在尸体中，并能够解开自己。

They were naked and hungry and all that.

他们赤身露体、饥饿等等。

1:51:49 And he ran out there, escaped, went into a building and found the loaf of bread wrapped in a shirt and was able to escape, fled.

他跑到那里，逃跑了，走进一栋大楼，发现一条面包裹在衬衫里，然后就逃跑了。

He never saw his family for…

他已经很久没有见过家人了……

so, to continue the story, my grandma got taken with her mother and brothers and sisters.

所以，为了继续这个故事，我的奶奶和她的母亲以及兄弟姐妹一起被带走了。

They just drove them into the desert until they died, basically, and run them around in circles and this and that, and then all the raping and pillaging that accompanies it.

他们只是把他们赶到沙漠里，直到他们死为止，基本上，然后让他们绕圈子，这样那样，然后伴随着所有的强奸和掠夺。

1:52:16 And at one point, her mom had the baby and the baby died.

有一次，她妈妈生了孩子，但孩子死了。

And her mom just collapsed and said, “I just can’t go any further.” And my grandma and her sister picked her up to, “We got to keep going,” and picked her up.

她妈妈崩溃了，说：“我不能再继续下去了。”我的祖母和她的姐姐把她抱起来，“我们必须继续前进”，然后把她抱起来。

They left the baby along with the other.

他们把孩子和另一个孩子一起留下了。

Everybody else had died.

其他人都死了。

It was just the three of them left.

只剩下他们三个人了。

1:52:38 And somehow, they bumbled across this British military camp and were rescued.

不知怎的，他们偶然发现了这个英国军营并被救了。

Neither of the sister nor my great-grandmother ever really recovered, from what I understand, but my grandma did.

据我所知，姐姐和我的曾祖母都没有真正康复，但我的祖母却康复了。

At the same time, in another village in Iran there, the Turks came in and were burning down my grandpa’s village and they caught.

与此同时，在伊朗的另一个村庄，土耳其人进来并烧毁了我祖父的村庄，他们抓住了。

And my grandpa’s dad was in a wheelchair and he had some money belt and he stuffed all his money in it and gave it to grandpa and just told him to run and don’t turn back.

我爷爷的爸爸坐在轮椅上，他有一个钱带，他把所有的钱都塞进去，交给爷爷，只是告诉他跑，不要回头。

And they came in the front door as he was running out the back, and he never saw his dad again.

当他从后门跑出去时，他们从前门进来，他再也没有见过他的父亲。

But he turned around and saw the house on fire, never knew what happened to his sister.

但他转身看到房子着火了，根本不知道妹妹发生了什么事。

And so, he was just alone.

所以，他只是一个人。

He ran.

他跑了。

1:53:27 At some point, I can’t remember, he lost his money belt and he took his jacket off, forgot it was something happened.

在某个时候，我不记得了，他丢了钱带，脱下了夹克，忘记了发生了什么事。

Anyway, so he was in a refugee camp.

无论如何，他是在难民营里。

He ended up getting taken in by some Jesuit missionary.

他最终被一些耶稣会传教士收留。

So, anyway, both of them had lost basically everything.

所以，无论如何，他们俩基本上都失去了一切。

And then, at some point, they met in Baghdad, started a family, immigrated to France.

然后，在某个时候，他们在巴格达相遇，组建了家庭，移民到法国。

And then it just so happened to be right before World War II.

然后恰好是在第二次世界大战之前。

1:53:55 And so, the Nazis invaded.

于是，纳粹入侵了。

My aunt, she’s still alive, but she actually met a resistance fighter for the French under a bridge somewhere.

我的姨妈，她还活着，但她居然在某处的一座桥下遇到了一位法国抵抗战士。

And they fell in love, and she got married.

他们相爱了，她结婚了。

So, she had an inn on the French resistance at one point.

因此，她曾在法国抵抗运动中拥有一家旅馆。

And of course, they were all hungry.

当然，他们都饿了。

They’d recently immigrated, but also had this Nazi occupation and all that.

他们最近移民了，但也有纳粹占领等等。

And so, Uncle Joe, the resistance fighter guy, told him, like, “Hey, we’re going to storm this noodle factory, come.” And so, they stormed the noodle factory and all my aunts surrounding there and we’re throwing out noodles into wheelbarrows and everybody was running.

因此，抵抗战士乔叔叔告诉他，“嘿，我们要袭击这家面条厂，来吧。”因此，他们袭击了面条厂和周围的所有阿姨，我们把面条扔进独轮车，每个人都在逃跑。

1:54:35 And then the Nazis came back and took it back over and shot a bunch of people and everything.

然后纳粹回来了，把它夺回来，枪杀了一群人和所有东西。

And grandpa, he had already come from where he came from, was paranoid.

而爷爷，他已经是从他来的地方来的，他是偏执的。

So, he buried all the noodles out in the garden.

于是，他把所有的面条都埋在了花园里。

And then my two aunts got stuck in that factory overnight with all the Nazi guards or whatever.

然后我的两个阿姨和所有纳粹警卫或其他什么人一起被困在那个工厂里过夜。

And then the Nazi guards went all from house to house to find everybody that had had noodles and punish them.

然后纳粹警卫挨家挨户地找到所有吃过面条的人并惩罚他们。

But they didn’t find my grandpa’s, fortunately.

但幸运的是，他们没有找到我爷爷的。

They searched his house, but not the garden.

他们搜查了他的房子，但没有搜查花园。

1:55:06 So, they had noodles.

所以，他们吃了面条。

And somehow, it must’ve been in the same factory or something, but olive oil, and they just lived off of that for all the whole war years.

不知何故，它一定是在同一个工厂或其他地方，但不是橄榄油，他们在整个战争年代都靠橄榄油为生。

My aunts ended up getting out of the…

我的阿姨们最终离开了……

they hid behind boxes and crates overnight and stuff, and the resistance stormed again in the morning and they got away and stuff.

他们躲在箱子和板条箱后面过夜，第二天早上，抵抗力量再次发起猛攻，他们就逃走了。

But anyway, chaos.

但无论如何，混乱。

So, when they moved to America, I will say, the most patriotic family everywhere ever, they loved it.

所以，当他们搬到美国时，我会说，这是有史以来最爱国的家庭，他们很喜欢它。

It was paradise here.

这里简直就是天堂。

I mean, that’s a lot to go through.

我的意思是，这需要经历很多事情。

1:55:32 What lessons do you draw from that on perseverance?

关于坚持不懈，你从中吸取了哪些教训？

Look, I’m just one generation away from all that suffering.

看，我距离所有这些苦难仅差一代人了。

1:55:40 My aunts and uncles and dad and stuff were the kids of these people.

我的阿姨、叔叔、爸爸等等都是这些人的孩子。

And somehow, I don’t have that.

不知何故，我没有那个。

What happened to all that trauma?

这些创伤是怎么回事？

Somehow, my grandparents bore it, and then they were able to build a family, but not just a family but a happy family.

不知何故，我的祖父母承受了它，然后他们能够建立一个家庭，但不仅仅是一个家庭，而是一个幸福的家庭。

I knew all my aunts and uncles and I didn’t know them.

我认识我所有的叔叔阿姨，但我却不认识他们。

They died before me.

他们比我先死。

But it was so much joy.

但这真是太快乐了。

The family reunions were the best thing ever at the Jonases.

家庭团聚是乔纳斯家有史以来最美好的事情。

And it’s just like, how in one generation did you go from that to that?

就像，你是如何在一代人的时间里从那个变成那个的？

And it must have been a great sacrifice of some sort to not pass that much resentment.

为了不让那么多的怨恨消散，一定是某种巨大的牺牲。

What did they do to break that chain in one generation?

他们做了什么，在一代人的时间里打破了这条链条？

Do you think it works the other way, like, where their ability to escape genocide, to escape Nazi occupation gave them a gratitude for life?

你认为情况是否相反，比如，他们逃离种族灭绝、逃离纳粹占领的能力让他们对生活心存感激？

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

It’s not a trauma in the sense like you’re forever bearing it.

从某种意义上说，这并不是一种创伤，就像你永远承受着它一样。

1:56:43 The flip side of that is just gratitude to be alive when you know so many people did not survive.

另一方面，当你知道有这么多人没能活下来时，你会感激自己还活着。

Yeah, it must be, because the only footage I saw of my grandma was they were all the kids and stuff.

是的，一定是这样，因为我看到的关于我祖母的唯一镜头是他们都是孩子和其他东西。

1:56:53 And they were cooking up a rabbit that they were raising or whatever.

他们正在烹饪他们养的兔子或其他什么东西。

But a joyful woman, you could see it in her.

但一个快乐的女人，你可以从她身上看到这一点。

And she must’ve understood how fortunate she was and been so grateful for it and so thankful for every one of those 11 kids she had.

她一定明白自己是多么幸运，并对此非常感激，也非常感谢她拥有的 11 个孩子中的每一个。

1:57:16 So, I recognized it again in my dad.

于是，我又在爸爸身上认出了这一点。

My dad went through a really slow painful decline in his health.

我父亲的健康状况经历了非常缓慢、痛苦的恶化。

And he had diabetes, ended up losing one leg.

他患有糖尿病，最终失去了一条腿。

And so, he lost his job.

于是，他丢了工作。

He had to watch my mom go to school.

他必须看着我妈妈去上学。

All he wanted to do was be a provider and be a family man.

他只想成为一名养家糊口的人，成为一个有家室的男人。

I bet the best time in his life was when his kids ran to him and gave him a hug.

我敢打赌，他一生中最美好的时光就是当他的孩子们跑向他并拥抱他的时候。

But then, all of a sudden, he found himself in a position where he couldn’t work and he had to watch his wife go to school, which was really hard for her, and become the breadwinner for the family.

但突然之间，他发现自己无法工作，只能看着妻子上学，这对她来说真的很辛苦，并成为家里的经济支柱。

And he just felt a failure.

而他只觉得自己很失败。

And I watched him go through that.

我看着他经历了这一切。

1:57:53 After all these years of letting that foot heal, we went out first day and we were splitting firewood with the splitter.

经过这些年让脚痊愈后，我们第一天出去，用劈柴器劈柴。

And he was just, ” So good to be back out, Jordan.

他只是说，“能回来真是太好了，乔丹。

It’s so nice.” And he crushed his foot in the log splitter and you’re just like, “No.” And so, then they just amputated it.

真是太好了。”他的脚被劈木机压伤了，你只能说：“不。”所以，然后他们就把它截掉了。

We’ve got both legs amputated, and then his health continued to decline.

我们双腿被截肢，然后他的健康状况继续恶化。

He lost his movement in his hands.

他的双手失去了动作。

So, he was incapacitated, to a degree, and in a lot of pain.

因此，他在一定程度上丧失了行动能力，并且承受着很大的痛苦。

I would hear him at night in pain all the time.

晚上我总是听到他痛苦的声音。

1:58:19 And I delayed a trip back to Russia and just stayed with my dad for those last six months.

我推迟了回俄罗斯的行程，最后六个月就和我爸爸住在一起。

And it was so interesting, having had lost everything.

失去一切真是太有趣了。

I’ve watched him wrestle with it through the years, but then he found his joy and his purpose just in being almost, I mean, a vegetable.

多年来我一直看着他与之斗争，但后来他发现了自己的快乐和目标，我的意思是，几乎成为一个植物人。

I’d have to help him pee, roll him onto the cot, take him to dialysis.

我得帮他小便，把他滚到床上，带他去透析。

But we would laugh.

但我们会笑。

I’d hear him at night crying or in pain, like, “Ah.” And then in the morning he’d have encouraging words to say.

晚上我会听到他哭泣或痛苦，就像“啊”。然后早上他会说些鼓励的话。

1:58:51 And I was like, “Wow, that’s how you face loss and suffering.” And he must’ve gotten that somehow from his parents.

我当时想，“哇，这就是你面对损失和痛苦的方式。”他一定是从他父母那里得到的。

And then I find myself on this show, and I had a thought, “Why is this easy to me,” in a way?

然后我发现自己在这个节目中，我有一个想法，“为什么这对我来说很容易”，在某种程度上？

“Why is this thing that’s…” and it just felt like this gift that had handed down and now would be my duty to hand down.

“为什么这东西是……”感觉就像这份礼物已经被传承下来，现在将是我的责任去传承。

But it’s an interesting…

但这是一个有趣的……

And be the beacon of that, represent that perseverance in the simpler way that something like survival in the wilderness shows.

并成为其中的灯塔，以更简单的方式代表这种毅力，就像在荒野中生存一样。

1:59:16 It’s the same.

是一样的。

It rhymes.

它押韵。

It rhymes, and it’s so simple.

它押韵，而且非常简单。

1:59:29 The lessons are simple, and so we can take them and apply them.

这些课程很简单，因此我们可以学习并应用它们。

So, that’s on the survivor side.

所以，这是幸存者一方。

1:59:35 What about on the people committing the atrocities?

那么那些犯下暴行的人呢？

What do you make of the Ottomans, what they did to Armenians or the Nazis, what they did to the Jews, the Slaws, and basically everyone?

你如何看待奥斯曼帝国，他们对亚美尼亚人或纳粹做了什么，他们对犹太人、斯拉夫和基本上所有人做了什么？

Why do you think people do evil in this world?

你认为人在这个世界上为什么会作恶？

It’s interesting that it is really easy, right?

有趣的是，这真的很容易，对吧？

1:59:56 It’s really easy.

这真的很容易。

You can almost sense it in yourself to justify a little bit of evil, or you see yourself cheer a little bit when the enemy gets knocked back in some way.

你几乎可以感觉到自己为一点邪恶辩护，或者当敌人以某种方式被击退时，你会看到自己有点欢呼。

In a way, it’s just perfectly naturalist for us to feed that hate and feed that tribalism in group outgroup, “We’re on this team.” And I think that can happen…

在某种程度上，对我们来说，在外群体中助长仇恨和部落主义是完全自然主义的，“我们是这个团队的一员。”我认为这可能会发生……

I think it just happens slowly, one justification at a time, one step at a time.

我认为这只是缓慢地发生，一次一个理由，一次一步。

You hear something and it makes you think then that you are in the right to perform some kind of…

你听到一些东西，这让你觉得你有权利执行某种……

you’re justified and break a couple eggs to make an omelet type thing.

你有理由打破几个鸡蛋来做煎蛋卷之类的东西。

But all of a sudden, that takes you down this whole train to where, pretty soon, you’re justifying what’s completely unjustifiable.

但突然之间，这把你带到了整个火车上，很快，你就证明了完全不合理的事情是合理的。

Which is gradual.

这是渐进的。

Yeah.

是的。

It’s a gradual process, a little bit at a time.

这是一个渐进的过程，一次一点点。

I think that’s why, for me, having a path of faith works as a mooring because it can help me shine that light on myself.

我想这就是为什么对我来说，拥有一条信仰之路就像一个系泊点，因为它可以帮助我照亮自己。

2:01:03 It’s like something outside.

就像外面的东西一样。

If you’re just looking at yourself and looking within yourself for your compass in life, it’s really easy to get that thing out of whack.

如果你只是审视自己，在自己的内心寻找生活的指南针，那么很容易让事情变得不正常。

But you need a perspective from what you can step out of yourself and look into yourself and judge yourself accordingly.

但你需要一个能够跳出自我、审视自己并相应地评判自己的视角。

Am I walking in line with that ideal?

我的行为符合那个理想吗？

And I think without that check, you’re subject.

我认为如果没有这种检查，你就是主体。

It’s easy to ignore the fact that you might be able to commit those things.

人们很容易忽视你可能能够做出这些事情的事实。

But we live in a pretty easy, comfortable society.

但我们生活在一个非常轻松、舒适的社会。

What if you pictured yourself in the position of my grandparents and then, all of a sudden, you got the upper hand in some kind of a fight?

如果你想象自己处于我祖父母的位置，然后突然在某种战斗中占据了上风怎么办？

What are you going to do?

你会怎样做？

You’d definitely picture becoming evil in that situation.

你肯定会想象在那种情况下变得邪恶。

I think one thing faith in God can do is humble you before these kinds of complexities of the world.

我认为对上帝的信仰可以做的一件事就是让你在世界的这些复杂性面前谦卑下来。

2:02:03 And humility is a way to avoid the slippery slope towards evil, I think.

我认为，谦卑是避免滑向邪恶的一种方法。

Humility that you don’t know who the good guys and the bad guys are, and you defer that to bigger powers to try to understand that.

谦虚的是，你不知道谁是好人，谁是坏人，你将其推迟到更大的权力来尝试理解这一点。

Yeah.

是的。

I think there’s a lot of the atrocities were committed with people who are very sure of themselves being good.

我认为很多暴行都是由那些非常确信自己是好人的人犯下的。

Yeah, that’s so true.

是的，确实如此。

It is sad that religion is, at times, used as a way to as yet another tool for justification.

可悲的是，宗教有时被用作另一种辩护工具。

Exactly, yeah.

没错，是的。

Which is a sad application of religion.

这是宗教的可悲应用。

It really is.

确实如此。

2:02:59 It’s so inherent and so natural in us to justify ourselves.

为自己辩护是我们与生俱来、自然而然的事情。

Just understanding history, read history, it blows my mind that, and I’m super thankful that, somehow, and this has been misused so much, but somehow this ideology arose that love your enemies, forgive those that persecute you, and just on down the line that something like that rose in the world into a position where we all accept those ideals, I think, is really remarkable and worth appreciating.

只是了解历史，阅读历史，这让我大吃一惊，我非常感激，不知何故，这已经被滥用了这么多，但不知何故，这种爱你的敌人，宽恕那些迫害你的人的意识形态出现了，就在这个世界上，类似的东西出现在我们都接受这些理想的位置，我认为，这真的是非凡的，值得欣赏。

2:03:45 That said, a lot of that gets wrapped up in what is so natural.

也就是说，很多事情都被如此自然的事情所包围。

It just becomes another instrument for tribalism or another justification for wrong.

它只是成为部落主义的另一个工具或错误的另一个理由。

And so, I even myself, am self-conscious sometimes talking about matters of faith, because I know when I’m talking about something else than what someone else might think of when they hear me talking about it.

因此，即使是我自己，有时在谈论信仰问题时也会感到不自在，因为我知道当我谈论其他事情时，别人听到我谈论它时可能会想到什么。

So, it’s interesting.

所以，这很有趣。

Yeah, I’ve been listening to Jordan Peterson talk about this.

是的，我一直在听乔丹·彼得森谈论这个。

2:04:10 He has a way of articulating things, which are sometimes hard to understand in the moment, but when I read it carefully afterwards, it starts to make more sense.

他有一种表达事物的方式，有时在当时很难理解，但当我后来仔细阅读时，它开始变得更有意义。

I’ve heard him talk about religion and God as a base layer, like a metaphorical substrate from which morality of our sense of what is right and wrong comes from, and just our conceptions of what is beautiful in life, all these kinds of higher things that are fuzzy to understand, that their religion helps create this substrate for which we, as a species, as a civilization, can come up with these notions.

我听他谈到宗教和上帝是一个基础层，就像一个隐喻的基础，我们对是非的道德感来自于此，我们对生活中美丽的概念，所有这些难以理解的更高层次的事物，他们的宗教帮助创造了这个基础，我们作为一个物种，作为一个文明，可以为此提出这些概念。

And without it, you are lost at sea.

没有它，你就会迷失在大海中。

I guess for him, morality requires that substrate.

我想对他来说，道德需要这个基础。

Like you said, it’s kind of fuzzy.

就像你说的，这有点模糊。

2:04:59 So, I’ve only been able to get clear vision of it when I live it.

所以，只有当我生活在其中时，我才能清楚地看到它。

It’s not something you profess or anything like that.

这不是你所宣称的或类似的东西。

It’s something that you take seriously and apply in your life.

这是你认真对待并应用在生活中的事情。

And when you live it, then there’s some clarity there, but that it has to be defined.

当你生活在其中时，就会有一些清晰的认识，但它必须被定义。

And that’s where you come in with the religion and the stories, because if you leave it completely undefined, I don’t really know where you go from there.

这就是你加入宗教和故事的地方，因为如果你完全不定义它，我真的不知道你会从那里走向何方。

Actually isn’t a funny to speak to that.

事实上，谈论这个并不好笑。

I did mushroom.

我做了蘑菇。

Have you ever done those before?

你以前做过这些吗？

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

2:05:36 Mushrooms, yeah.

蘑菇，是的。

I’ve done them a couple of times, but one time was, didn’t do that many the other time more.

我已经做过几次了，但有一次没有做那么多，其他时候就更多了。

2:05:38 And I had a really experience in helping couch all this in a proper context for myself.

我在帮助自己在适当的环境中实现这一切方面拥有真正的经验。

So, when I did it, I remember I was sitting on a swing and I could see everything was so blissful, except I could see my black hands on these chains on the swing, but everything else was blissful and amorphous, and I could see the outline of my kids and I could just feel the love for them.

所以，当我这样做的时候，我记得我坐在秋千上，我可以看到一切都是那么幸福，除了我可以看到秋千上的铁链上有我的黑手，但其他一切都是幸福和无形的，我可以看到我孩子的轮廓，我可以感受到对他们的爱。

And I was just like, “Man, I just feel the love.

我当时想，“伙计，我只是感受到了爱。

It’s so wonderful.”

太棒了。”

2:06:14 But then, at times, I would try to picture them, and I couldn’t quite picture the kids, but I could feel the love.

但有时，我会尝试想象他们，虽然我无法完全想象孩子们的样子，但我能感受到爱。

And then I started asking all the deepest existential questions I could, and it felt like I was just one answer, another answer, another answer.

然后我开始问所有我能问的最深刻的存在主义问题，感觉我只是一个答案，另一个答案，另一个答案。

Everything was being answered.

一切都在得到解答。

And I felt like I was communing with God, whatever you want to say.

我觉得我正在与上帝交谈，无论你想说什么。

2:06:33 But I was very aware of the fact that that communing was just peeling back the tiniest corner of the infinite, and it just dumped me with every answer I felt I could have.

但我非常清楚这样一个事实：这种交流只是剥离了无限的最微小的角落，它只是把我认为我能得到的每一个答案都甩掉了。

And it blew me away.

它让我大吃一惊。

So, then I asked it, “Well, if You’re the infinite, why did You reveal to me yourself?

所以，然后我问它：“好吧，如果你是无限的，为什么你要亲自向我揭示？

Why did You use the story of Jesus to reveal yourself?” And then that infinite amorphous thing had to, somehow, take form for us to be able to relate to it.

你为什么用耶稣的故事来启示你自己？”然后，那个无限无定形的东西必须以某种方式形成，以便我们能够与它产生联系。

It had to have some kind of a form.

它必须有某种形式。

But whenever you create a form out of something, you’re boxing it in and subjugating it to boundaries and stuff like that.

但每当你用某种东西创建一个形式时，你就会将它装箱并使其屈服于边界和类似的东西。

And then that subject to pain and subject to the brokenness and all that.

然后就是承受痛苦、承受破碎等等。

2:07:19 And I was like, “Oh, wow.” But when I had that thought, then, all of a sudden, I could relate my dark hands on the chains to the rest of the experience, and then all of a sudden I could picture my children as the children rather than this amorphous feeling of love.

我当时想，“哦，哇。”但当我有了这个想法时，突然间，我可以将我放在铁链上的黑手与其余的经历联系起来，然后突然间，我可以将我的孩子想象成孩子，而不是这种无形的爱的感觉。

It was like, “Oh, there’s Alana and Alta and Zion.” But then they were bounded, and then once they’re bounded, you’re subject to the death and to the misunderstanding and to all that.

就像，“哦，有阿拉娜、阿尔塔和锡安。”但随后它们就受到了限制，一旦它们受到限制，你就会受到死亡、误解等的影响。

I picture the amoeba or the cell, and then when it dies, it turns into a unformed thing.

我想象阿米巴原虫或细胞，然后当它死亡时，它会变成一个未成形的东西。

2:07:54 So, we need some kind of form to relate to.

因此，我们需要某种形式来关联。

So, instead of always just talking about God completely and tangibly, it gave me a way to relate to it.

所以，它不是总是完全、具体地谈论上帝，而是给了我一种与上帝联系的方式。

And I was like, “Wow, that was really powerful to me,” and putting it in a context that was applicable.

我当时想，“哇，这对我来说真的很强大”，并将其放在适用的背景下。

But ultimately, God is the thing that’s formless, that is unbounded, but we humans need.

但归根结底，上帝是无形的、无限的，但我们人类需要。

Right.

正确的。

I mean, that’s the purpose of stories.

我的意思是，这就是故事的目的。

2:08:22 They resonate with something in, but when you need the bounded nature, the constraints of those stories, otherwise we wouldn’t be able to…

它们与某些东西产生共鸣，但是当你需要这些故事的有限性质和约束时，否则我们将无法……

Can’t relate to it.

无法与之相关。

We can’t relate to it.

我们无法理解它。

2:08:36 And then when you look at the stories literally, or you just look at them just as they are, it seems silly, just too simplistic.

然后，当你从字面上看这些故事，或者你只是按照它们的本来面目来看它们时，它看起来很愚蠢，太简单化了。

Right.

正确的。

2:08:50 And then that was always, a lot of my family and loved ones and friends have completely left the faith.

然后总是这样，我的很多家人、亲人和朋友都完全放弃了信仰。

And I totally, in a way, I get it.

在某种程度上，我完全明白。

I understand, but I also really see the baby that’s being thrown out with the bathwater.

我理解，但我也确实看到了婴儿与洗澡水一起被倒掉的情况。

And I want to cherish that, in a way, I guess.

我想，在某种程度上，我想珍惜这一点。

And it’s interesting that you say that the way to know what’s right and wrong is you have to live it.

有趣的是，你说知道什么是对什么是错的方法是你必须经历它。

2:09:08 Sometimes, it’s probably very difficult to articulate.

有时，可能很难清楚地表达出来。

But in the living of it, do you realize it?

但在生活中，你意识到这一点吗？

Yeah.

是的。

2:09:24 And I’m glad you say that because I’ve found a lot of comfort in that, because I feel somewhat inarticulate a lot of the times and unable to articulate my thoughts, especially on these matters.

我很高兴你这么说，因为我从中找到了很多安慰，因为很多时候我感觉有些口齿不清，无法表达我的想法，尤其是在这些问题上。

And then you just think it’s, “I just have to.” I can live it.

然后你就会想，“我必须这样做。”我能活下去。

I can try to live it.

我可以尝试这样生活。

And then what I also am struck with right away is I can’t, because you can’t love everybody, you can’t love your enemies, and you can’t…

然后我也立刻意识到我不能，因为你不能爱每个人，你不能爱你的敌人，你不能……

2:09:48 But placing that in front of you as the ideal is so important to put a check on your human instincts, on your tribalism, on your…

但将其作为理想摆在你面前非常重要，可以检查你的人类本能、你的部落主义、你的……

I mean, very quickly, like we were talking about with evil, it can really quickly take its place in your life, you almost won’t observe it happening.

我的意思是，很快，就像我们谈论邪恶一样，它很快就会在你的生活中占据一席之地，你几乎不会观察到它的发生。

And so, I much appreciate all the me striving.

因此，我非常感谢我所做的一切努力。

I grew up in a Christian family, so I had these cliches that I didn’t really understand, like a relationship with God, what does that mean?

我在一个基督教家庭长大，所以我有一些我不太理解的陈词滥调，比如与上帝的关系，这是什么意思？

2:10:24 But then I realized, when I struggled with trying, with taking…

但后来我意识到，当我努力尝试、努力采取时……

I actually did try to take it seriously and struggle with what does it mean to live out of life of love in the world?

事实上，我确实尝试认真对待它，并努力思考在这个世界上靠爱生活意味着什么？

But that’s a wrestling match.

但这是一场摔跤比赛。

It’s not that simple.

事情没那么简单。

It sounds good, but it’s really hard to do.

听起来不错，但做起来确实很难。

And then you realize you can’t do it perfectly.

然后你意识到你无法完美地做到这一点。

But in that struggle, in that wrestling match is where I actually sense that relationship.

但在那场斗争中，在那场摔跤比赛中，我真正感受到了这种关系。

And then that’s where it gains life and how that…

然后这就是它获得生命的地方以及如何……

and I’m sure that relates to what Jordan Peterson is getting at in his metaphor.

我确信这与乔丹·彼得森在他的比喻中所表达的意思有关。

In the striving of the ideal, in the striving towards the ideal, you discover how to be a better person.

在为理想而奋斗的过程中，在为理想而奋斗的过程中，你发现如何成为一个更好的人。

One thing I noticed really tangibly on alone was that, because I had so many people that were close to me, just leave it all together, I was like, “I could do that.

我单独注意到的一件事是，因为我有很多亲近的人，所以我就想，“我可以做到这一点。

2:11:13 I actually understand why they do, or I could not.

我实际上理解他们为什么这样做，或者我不能。

I do have a choice.” And so, I had to choose at that point to maintain that ideal because I could add enough time on alone.

我确实有一个选择。”所以，我必须在那时选择保持这个理想，因为我可以增加足够的独处时间。

One nice thing is you don’t have any distractions.

一件好事是你没有任何干扰。

You have all the time in the world to go into your head.

你有足够的时间去思考。

And I could play those paths out in my life.

我可以在我的生活中走这些路。

And not only in my life, but I feel like societally and generationally.

不仅在我的生活中，而且在社会和世代中我也有这样的感觉。

I throw it all away and everybody start from square one, or we can try to redeem what’s valuable in this and wrestle with it.

我把它全部扔掉，每个人都从一开始，或者我们可以尝试赎回其中有价值的东西并与之搏斗。

And so, I chose that path.

所以，我选择了这条路。

Well, I do think it’s like a wrestling match.

嗯，我确实认为这就像一场摔跤比赛。

2:12:03 You mentioned Gulag Archipelago.

你提到了古拉格群岛。

I’m very much a believer that we all have the capacity for good and evil.

我非常相信我们都有行善和作恶的能力。

And striving for the ideal to be a good human being is not a trivial one.

为成为一个好人的理想而奋斗并不是一件小事。

You have to find the right tools for yourself to be able to be the candle, as you mentioned before.

正如您之前提到的，您必须找到适合自己的工具才能成为蜡烛。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

2:12:26 I like that.

我喜欢这样。

And then for that, religion and faith can help.

为此，宗教和信仰可以提供帮助。

2:12:27 I’m sure there’s other ways, but I think it’s grounded in understanding that each human is able to be a really bad person and a really good person.

我确信还有其他方法，但我认为这是基于这样的理解：每个人都可以成为一个真正的坏人，也可以成为一个真正的好人。

And that’s a choice.

这是一个选择。

It’s a deliberate choice.

这是一个深思熟虑的选择。

And it’s a choice that’s taken every moment and builds up over time.

这是一个每时每刻都在做出的选择，并且随着时间的推移而逐渐形成。

2:12:51 And the hard part about it’s you don’t know.

最困难的部分是你不知道。

You don’t always have the clarity using reason to understand what is good and what is right and what is wrong.

你并不总是能够清晰地利用理性来理解什么是好的、什么是对的、什么是错的。

You have to live it with humility and constantly struggle.

你必须谦虚地生活并不断奋斗。

Because then, yeah, you might wake up on a society where you’re committing genocides and you think you’re the good guys.

因为那时，是的，你可能会在一个你正在犯下种族灭绝的社会中醒来，并且你认为自己是好人。

And I think you have to have the courage to realize you’re not.

我认为你必须有勇气意识到你不是。

It’s not always obvious.

这并不总是显而易见的。

It isn’t, man.

事实并非如此，伙计。

History has the clarity to show who were the good guys and who were the bad guys.

历史已经清楚地表明谁是好人，谁是坏人。

Right.

正确的。

2:13:33 You got to wrestle with it.

你必须与之斗争。

It’s like, that quote, the line between good and evil goes through the heart of every man, and we push it this way and that.

就像那句话一样，善与恶之间的界限贯穿每个人的内心，而我们却这样或那样地推动着它。

And our job is to work on that within ourselves.

我们的工作就是在我们自己内部努力解决这个问题。

Yeah, that’s the part.

是的，就是这个部分。

2:13:49 That’s what I like.

这就是我喜欢的。

The full quote talks about the fact that it moves.

完整的引用谈到了它移动的事实。

The line moves moment by moment, day by day.

这条线每时每刻、日复一日地移动。

We have the freedom to move that line.

我们有改变这条线的自由。

So, it is a very deliberate thing.

所以，这是一件非常刻意的事情。

It’s not like you’re born this way and it’s it.

你并不是生来如此，就是这样。

Yeah, I agree.

是的，我同意。

And especially in conditions that are worn peace, in the case of the camps, absurd levels of injustice, in the face of all that, when everything is taken away from you, you still have the choice to be the candle like the grandmas.

尤其是在和平的环境下，在集中营的情况下，荒谬的不公正程度，面对这一切，当你的一切都被夺走时，你仍然可以选择像祖母一样成为蜡烛。

2:14:15 By the way, grandmas, in all parts of the world, are the strongest humans.

顺便说一句，奶奶，在世界各地，都是最强的人类。

Shout-out.

喊出来。

Seriously, yeah.

说真的，是的。

I don’t know what it is.

我不知道那是什么。

2:14:45 I don’t know.

我不知道。

They have this wisdom that comes from patience and have seen it all, have seen all the bullshit of the people that come and gone, all the abuses of power, all of this, I don’t know what it is.

他们有这种来自耐心的智慧，已经看到了这一切，看到了来来去去的人们的所有胡言乱语，所有滥用权力的行为，所有这一切，我不知道那是什么。

And they just keep going.

他们只是继续前进。

Right, right.

对，对。

2:15:03 Yeah, that’s so true.

是的，确实如此。

As we’ve gotten a bit philosophical, what do you think of Werner Herzog’s style of narration?

我们已经了解了一点哲学，你觉得沃纳·赫尔佐格的叙述风格怎么样？

2:15:11 I wish he narrated my life.

我希望他能讲述我的生活。

Yeah, it’s amazing to have listened to.

是的，听了真是太棒了。

Because that documentary is actually in Russian.

因为那部纪录片实际上是俄语的。

2:15:22 I think he took a longer series and then put narration over it.

我认为他拍了一个更长的系列，然后在上面加上了旁白。

And that narration can transform a story.

这种叙述可以改变一个故事。

Yeah, he does an incredible job with it.

是的，他在这方面做得非常出色。

2:15:38 Have you seen the full version?

你看过完整版吗？

Have you watched the four-part full version?

你看过四集完整版吗？

You should.

你应该。

You’d like it.

你会喜欢的。

It’s in Russian, and so you’ll get the fullness of that.

它是俄语的，所以你会得到完整的内容。

And he had to fit it into a two-hour format.

他必须将其调整为两小时的格式。

So, I think what you lose in those extra couple hours is worth watching.

所以，我认为你在这额外的几个小时里失去的东西值得一看。

I think you’ll like it.

我想你会喜欢的。

Yeah, they always go pretty dark.

是的，他们总是变得很黑暗。

Do they?

他们有吗？

They always go pretty dark.

他们总是变得很暗。

Do they?

他们有吗？

He has a very dark sense about nature that is violence and it’s murder.

他对自然有一种非常黑暗的感觉，那就是暴力和谋杀。

Yeah, I think that’s important to recognize because it’s really easy, I mean especially with what I do and what I talk about, and I see so much of the value in nature.

是的，我认为认识到这一点很重要，因为它真的很容易，我的意思是特别是我所做的和我所谈论的，而且我看到了大自然的很多价值。

2:16:09 Gosh, I also see a beautiful moose and a calf running around, and then next week I see the calf ripped the shreds by wolves and you’re just like, “Oh.” And it’s not as Rousseauian as we like to think.

天哪，我还看到一头美丽的驼鹿和一头小牛跑来跑去，然后下周我看到小牛被狼撕成碎片，你就会说，“哦。”它并不像我们想象的那样是卢梭式的。

Things must die for things to live, like you said.

正如你所说，事物必须死亡才能生存。

And that’s just played out all the time.

这一直在上演。

And it’s indifferent to you, doesn’t care if you live or die, and doesn’t care how you die or how much pain you go through while you…

它对你漠不关心，不关心你是生是死，也不关心你是怎么死的，也不关心你经历了多少痛苦……

It’s pretty brutal.

这非常残酷。

So it’s interesting that he taps into that, and I think it’s valuable because it’s easy to idealize in a way.

所以他利用这一点很有趣，我认为这很有价值，因为在某种程度上很容易理想化。

Yeah, the indifference is…

是啊，冷漠就是……

2:17:05 I don’t know what to make of it.

我不知道该怎么办。

There is an indifference.

有一种冷漠。

It’s a bit scary, it’s a bit lonely.

有点害怕，有点孤独。

You’re just a cog in the machine of nature that doesn’t really care about you.

你只是自然机器中的一个齿轮，它并不真正关心你。

Totally.

完全。

2:17:24 I think that’s something I sat with a lot on that show, is another part of the depths of your psychology to delve into.

我认为这是我在那个节目中经常遇到的事情，是你的心理深处需要深入研究的另一部分。

And that’s when I thought I understand that deeply, but I could also choose to believe that for some reason it matters, and then I could live like it matters, and then I could see the trajectories.

就在那时，我以为我深深地理解了这一点，但我也可以选择相信，出于某种原因，它很重要，然后我可以像它一样重要地生活，然后我可以看到轨迹。

And that was another fork in the road of my path, I guess.

我想，那是我道路上的另一个岔路口。

What do you think about the connection to the animals?

您如何看待与动物的联系？

2:17:45 So in that movie, it’s with the dogs.

所以在那部电影中，是和狗在一起的。

And with you it’s the other domesticated, the reindeer.

和你在一起的是另一种驯化的动物—​​—驯鹿。

What do you think about that human animal connection?

您如何看待人与动物之间的联系？

In the context of that indifference, isn’t it interesting that we assign so much value, and love, and appreciation for these animals?

在这种冷漠的背景下，我们对这些动物赋予如此多的价值、爱和欣赏，这不是很有趣吗？

2:17:59 And in some degree we get that back in a…

在某种程度上，我们可以通过……

I think right now you just said the reindeer.

我想现在你刚刚说的是驯鹿。

I think of the one they gave me because he was long and tall, so they named him [inaudible 02:18:16], and I just remember [inaudible 02:18:19], and just watching him eat the leaves, and go with me through the woods, and trust him to take me through rivers and stuff.

我想起他们给我的那个，因为他又长又高，所以他们给他起了名字[听不清02:18:16]，我只记得[听不清02:18:19]，只是看着他吃叶子，和我一起穿过树林，相信他会带我穿过河流和其他东西。

And it really is special.

它确实很特别。

It’s really enriching to have that relationship with an animal.

与动物建立这种关系真的很丰富。

And I think it also puts you in a proper context.

我认为这也让你处于一个适当的环境中。

2:18:36 One thing I noticed about the natives who live with those animals all the time is they relate to life and death a little more naturally.

对于一直与这些动物生活在一起的当地人，我注意到的一件事是，他们对生与死的态度更加自然。

We feel really removed from it, particularly in urban settings.

我们感觉自己真的远离了它，尤其是在城市环境中。

And I think when you interact with animals, and you have to confront the life and the death of them and the responsibility of a symbiotic relationship you have, I think it opens it a little bit awareness to your place in the puzzle, and puts you in it rather than above it.

我认为，当你与动物互动时，你必须面对它们的生与死，以及你所拥有的共生关系的责任，我认为这会让你对你在谜题中的位置有一点认识，并将你置于其中而不是之上。

Have you been able to accept your own death?

你能接受自己的死亡吗？

I wonder.

我想知道。

2:19:13 You wonder when it actually comes, what you’re going to think.

你想知道它何时真正到来，你会怎么想。

But I did have my dad to watch, confronted in as positive a manner as you could.

但我确实有我的父亲在看着，以尽可能积极的方式面对。

And that’s a big advantage.

这是一个很大的优势。

And so I think when the time comes that I will be ready, but I think that’s easy to say when the time feels far off.

所以我认为，当时机到来时，我会做好准备，但我认为，当时间还很遥远时，我认为这很容易说出来。

It’ll be interesting if you got a cancer diagnosis tomorrow and stage four.

如果您明天得到癌症第四阶段的诊断，那将会很有趣。

It’ll be heavy.

会很重。

Did you ever confront death while in survival situations when you’re in?

当你身处生存境地时，你是否曾经面对过死亡？

I had a time where I thought I was going to die.

我有一段时间觉得自己快要死了。

2:19:52 I had a lot of situations that could have gone either way, and a lot of injuries, broken ribs and this and that.

我遇到过很多情况，都可能发生这种情况，还有很多伤病，肋骨骨折等等。

But the one that I was able to be conscious through a slowly evolving experience that I thought I might die in was at one point, we were siphoning gas out of a barrel, and it was almost to the bottom, and I was sucking really hard to get the gas out.

但是，通过一种缓慢演变的经历，我能够意识到自己可能会死在其中，有一次，我们正在从桶中吸出气体，而它几乎已经到了底部，我非常用力地吸着，以将气体吸出来。

And then I didn’t get the siphon going, so I waited.

然后我没有让虹吸管启动，所以我等待。

And then while I was sitting there, [inaudible 02:20:21] put a new canister on top and put the hose in, and I didn’t see.

然后当我坐在那里时，[听不清 02:20:21] 在上面放了一个新罐并插入软管，但我没有看到。

And so then I went to get another siphon and I went, sucked as hard as I could, and just instantly a bunch of gas filled my mouth, and I couldn’t spit it out.

然后我又去拿另一个虹吸管，用尽全力吸，立刻一股气体充满了我的嘴，我无法吐出来。

I had to go like that, and I just mouthful of gas that I just drank and I was just like, “What is that going to do?”

我不得不那样做，我只是喝了一口刚刚喝的汽油，然后我就想，“那会做什么？”

2:20:43 And he and my friend, were going to go on this fishing trip, and so was I.

他和我的朋友打算去钓鱼，我也是。

And I was just like, “I might just stay.” And I was in this little Russian village and they’re like, “All right, well.” [inaudible 02:20:57] was like, “Man, I had a buddy that died doing that with diesel a couple of years ago.

我当时想，“我可能会留下来。”我在这个俄罗斯小村庄里，他们就像，“好吧，好吧。” [听不清 02:20:57] 就像，“伙计，我有一个朋友几年前因为用柴油做这件事而死了。

Man.”

伙计。”

2:21:02 So anyway, I made my way to the hospital, and by then you’re really out of it.

不管怎样，我还是去了医院，到那时你就真的康复了。

And they put me in this little dark room.

他们把我关在这个小黑屋里。

It almost sounds unrealistic, but it’s exactly how it happened.

这听起来几乎不现实，但它确实发生了。

They put me in a little room with a toilet, and they gave me a galvanized bucket, and then they just had a cold water faucet and they’re just like, “Just chug water, puke into the toilet, and just flush your system as much you can.” But they only had a cold water faucet.

他们把我安置在一个带厕所的小房间里，给了我一个镀锌水桶，然后他们就只有一个冷水龙头，他们就像是，“就冲水，吐进厕所，然后尽可能地冲洗你的系统。”但他们只有一个冷水龙头。

So I was just sitting there like chug, chug, chug, until you puke, and chug until you puke, and I’m in the dark.

所以我只是坐在那里，就像突突、突突、突突，直到你呕吐，突突直到你呕吐，而我却在黑暗中。

And I started to shiver, because I was so cold, but I just had to still get this thing up to me and chug until I puked.

我开始发抖，因为我太冷了，但我还是得把这个东西举到我身边，咕咕地叫，直到我吐了。

I was picturing, I remember reading about the Japanese torture where they would put a hose in somebody and then make them drink water until they puke.

我在想象，我记得读到过关于日本酷刑的文章，他们会把软管放在某人身上，然后让他们喝水，直到他们呕吐。

2:21:53 Anyway, and I just felt so…

不管怎样，我只是觉得……

The only way I can express it, I felt so possessed, demon possessed.

我能表达的唯一方式是，我感觉自己被附身了，被恶魔附身了。

I was just permeated with gas.

我刚刚充满了气体。

I could feel it was coming out of my pores, and I wanted to rip it out of me and I couldn’t.

我能感觉到它正从我的毛孔里流出来，我想把它从我身上撕下来，但我做不到。

I’d puke into the toilet and then couldn’t see, but I was wondering if it was rain.

我会吐进厕所，然后就看不见了，但我想知道是不是下雨了。

2:22:13 And then I just remember, I could tell I was going out pretty soon, and I remember looking at my hands up close.

然后我才记得，我知道我很快就要出去了，我记得近距离地看着我的手。

I’d see them a little bit and I was like, “Oh, that’s how dad’s hands looked.” They were alive, alive, and then interesting.

当我看到它们一点点的时候，我就想，“哦，这就是爸爸的手的样子。”他们还活着，还活着，而且很有趣。

Are my hands going to look like that and a few minutes or whatever.

我的手会像那样吗？几分钟之类的。

2:22:32 So then I wrote down to my family what I thought, “I love you all.

所以我写下了我的想法给我的家人：“我爱你们所有人。

I feel at peace,” blah, blah, blah.

我感到很平静”，等等，等等。

And then I passed out and I woke up.

然后我就昏倒了，然后就醒了。

But I didn’t think…

但我没想到……

I actually thought, when I went to pass out, I thought there was a coin toss for me.

我实际上想，当我昏倒时，我以为我可以掷硬币。

So I really felt like I was confronting the end there.

所以我真的觉得我即将面临结局。

What are the harshest conditions to survive in on earth?

地球上最恶劣的生存条件是什么？

Well, there are places that are just purely uninhabitable.

嗯，有些地方根本不适合居住。

2:22:57 But I think as far as places that you have a chance-

但我认为就你有机会的地方而言——

You have a chance is a good way to put it.

你有机会是一个很好的表达方式。

Maybe Greenland.

也许格陵兰岛。

2:23:06 I think of Greenland because I think of those Vikings that settled, there were rugged capable dudes and they didn’t make it.

我想到格陵兰岛是因为我想到那些定居的维京人，那里有坚韧能干的家伙，但他们没有成功。

But there are Inuit, natives that live up there, but it’s a hard life and the population’s never grown very big, because you’re scraping by up there.

但也有因纽特人，当地人居住在那里，但生活很艰苦，人口也从未增长太多，因为你只能在那里勉强度日。

And you picture, and the Vikings that did land there, they just weren’t able to quite adapt.

你想象一下，登陆那里的维京人只是无法完全适应。

The fact that they all died out is just a symbol to that must be a pretty difficult place to live.

它们全部灭绝的事实只是一个象征，表明那里一定是一个非常难以居住的地方。

What would you say?

你会说什么？

2:23:40 That’s primarily because just the food sources are limited.

这主要是因为食物来源有限。

The food sources are limited, but the fact that some people can live there means it is possible.

食物来源有限，但有人能在那里生活就意味着这是可能的。

2:23:44 They’ve figured out ways to catch seals and do things to survive, but it’s by no means easier to be taken for granted or obvious.

他们已经想出了捕捉海豹的方法并采取一些措施来生存，但这绝不是更容易被认为是理所当然或显而易见的。

I think it’s probably a harsh place to try to live.

我认为这可能是一个很难生活的地方。

Yeah, it’s fascinating not just humans, but to watch how animals have figured out how to survive.

是的，不仅对人类来说很有趣，而且观察动物如何找到生存的方法也很有趣。

2:24:02 I was watching a documentary on polar bears.

我正在看一部关于北极熊的纪录片。

They just figure out a way, and they’ve been doing it for generations, and they figure out a way.

他们只是找到了一种方法，他们已经做了好几代人了，他们找到了一种方法。

They travel hundreds of miles to the water to get fat, and they travel 100 miles for whatever other purpose because they want to stay on the ice.

他们长途跋涉数百英里到水里去增肥，也为了任何其他目的而长途跋涉100英里，因为他们想留在冰上。

I don’t know.

我不知道。

But there’s a process, and they figure it out against the long odds, and some of them don’t make it.

但这是有一个过程的，他们要克服巨大的困难才能找到答案，但有些人却没有成功。

It’s incredible.

太不可思议了。

2:24:38 What tough things, man.

多么艰难的事情啊，伙计。

You just think every animal you see up in the mountains when I’m up in the woods, there’s that thing just surviving through the winter, scraping by.

当我在树林里时，你会想，你在山上看到的每一种动物，都只是在过冬，勉强度日。

It’s tough existence.

这是艰难的存在。

What do you think it would take to break you, let’s say mentally?

你认为什么会击垮你，比如说精神上的？

2:24:54 If you’re in a survival situation.

如果你处于生存困境。

I mean I think mentally it would have to be…

我的意思是，我认为从精神上来说，它必须是……

2:25:04 Well, we talked about that earlier I guess.

嗯，我想我们之前已经讨论过这个问题了。

The thing that I’ve confronted that I thought I knew was that if I knew I was the last person on earth, I wouldn’t do it.

我所面对的、我自以为知道的一件事是，如果我知道我是地球上最后一个人，我就不会这么做。

But maybe you’re right.

但也许你是对的。

Maybe I would think I wasn’t.

也许我会认为我不是。

But I think I can’t imagine.

但我想我无法想象。

We’re so blessed in the time we live, but I can’t imagine what it’s like to lose your kids, something like that.

我们生活在这个时代非常幸运，但我无法想象失去孩子之类的事情会是什么样子。

It was an experience that was so common for humanity for so much of history.

这是人类历史上如此普遍的经历。

2:25:42 Would I be able to endure that?

我能忍受吗？

I would have at least a legacy to look back on of people who did, but god forbid I ever have to delve that deep.

我至少会留下一份遗产可以回顾那些做过的人，但上帝禁止我深入研究。

You know what I mean?

你知道我的意思？

I could see that breaking somebody.

我可以看到这让某人心碎。

In your own family history, there’s people who have survived that, and maybe that would give you hope.

在你自己的家族历史中，有人幸存下来，也许这会给你带来希望。

I mean I think that’s what I would have to somehow hold onto.

我的意思是，我认为这就是我必须以某种方式坚持下去的。

But in a survival situation, there’s very few things that-

但在生存情况下，很少有事情——

I don’t know what it would be.

我不知道那会是什么。

2:26:10 So I’m alone.

所以我一个人。

So if I’m alone, I knew, and ultimately it is a game show.

所以，如果我独自一人，我知道，最终这只是一个游戏节目。

So it’s like ultimately, I wasn’t going to kill myself out there.

所以最终，我不会在那里自杀。

2:26:25 So if I hadn’t been able to procure food, and I was starving to death, it’s like, okay, I’m going to go home.

所以，如果我买不到食物，而且我快要饿死了，那就好像，好吧，我要回家了。

But if you put yourself in that situation, but it’s not a game show, and having been there to some degree, I will say I wasn’t even close.

但如果你把自己置于那种情况下，但这不是一个游戏节目，而且在某种程度上已经经历过那里，我会说我还没有接近。

I don’t even know.

我什至不知道。

It hadn’t pushed my mental limit at all yet I would say or on the scale, but that’s not to say there isn’t one.

我想说的是，它根本没有突破我的精神极限，但这并不是说没有。

I know there is one, but I have a hard time…

我知道有一个，但我很难……

2:26:57 I know I’ve dealt with enough pain and enough discomfort in life that I know I can deal with that.

我知道我在生活中已经承受了足够多的痛苦和不适，我知道我可以应对这些。

I think it gets difficult when there’s a way out, and you start to wonder if you shouldn’t take the way out as far as if there’s no way out, I don’t know-

我认为当有出路时事情就会变得困难，你开始怀疑是否不应该采取出路，就好像没有出路一样，我不知道-

Oh, that’s interesting.

哦，这很有趣。

2:27:19 I mean that is a real difficult battle when there’s an exit, when it’s easy to quit.

我的意思是，当有退出的时候，当很容易退出时，这真是一场艰难的战斗。

Right.

正确的。

2:27:27 “Why am I doing this?”

“我为什么要这么做？”

Yeah, that’s the thing that gets louder and louder the harder things get, that voice.

是的，事情变得越困难，声音就越响亮。

It’s not insignificant.

这并非微不足道。

2:27:37 If you think you’re doing permanent damage to your body, you would be smart to quit.

如果您认为自己正在对身体造成永久性损害，那么明智的做法是放弃。

You should just not do that when it’s not necessary, because health is kind of all you have in some regards.

没有必要时你不应该这样做，因为在某些方面健康就是你所拥有的一切。

So I don’t blame anyone when they quit because of that reason.

因此，当他们因为这个原因退出时，我不会责怪任何人。

It’s like good.

好像很好。

2:27:59 But if you’re in a situation and you don’t have the option to quit, is knowing that you’re doing permanent, that’s not going to break.

但如果你处于某种情况并且你无法选择退出，那么你知道你正在做永久性的事情，这不会被打破。

That won’t break me.

那不会让我崩溃。

You just have to get through it.

你只需要克服它。

I’m not sure what my mental limit would be outside of the family suffering in the way that I described earlier.

我不确定除了我之前描述的家庭痛苦之外，我的精神极限会是多少。

When it’s just you, it’s you alone.

当只有你一个人的时候，就只有你一个人了。

2:28:19 There’s the limit.

有限制。

You don’t know what the limit is.

你不知道极限是什么。

I don’t know.

我不知道。

Injuries, physical stuff is annoying though.

伤病，身体上的事情虽然很烦人。

2:28:26 That could be-

那可能是——

Isn’t it weird how, I can have a good life, happy life, and then you have a bad back or you have a headache.

这不是很奇怪吗，我可以过着美好的生活，幸福的生活，然后你却背伤了，或者头痛了。

2:28:32 And it’s amazing how much that can overwhelm your experience.

令人惊讶的是，这会压倒你的体验。

2:28:43 And again, that was something I saw in dad that was interesting.

再说一次，我在父亲身上看到了一些有趣的东西。

How can you find joy in that when you’re just steeped in that all the time?

当你一直沉浸在其中时，你怎么能从中找到快乐呢？

And people, I’m sure listening, there’s a lot of people that do, and talk about the cross to bear, and the hero journey to be good for you for trying to find your way through that.

人们，我确信在听，有很多人这样做，并谈论要背负的十字架，以及英雄之旅对你有好处，因为你试图找到自己的出路。

2:29:08 There was a lady in Russia, Tanya, and she had cancer and recovered, but always had a pounding headache, and she was really joyful, and really fun to be around.

俄罗斯有一位女士，塔尼娅，她患了癌症，后来康复了，但总是头痛欲裂，她真的很快乐，和她在一起真的很有趣。

And I’m just like, man, you just have to have a really bad headache for today to know how much that throws a wrench in your existence.

我就想，伙计，你今天只要头疼得很厉害，就知道这对你的生活造成了多大的影响。

So all that to say if you’re not right now suffering with blindness or a bad back, it’s like just count your blessings because it’s amazing how complex we are, how well our bodies work.