伊万卡·特朗普：政治、家庭、房地产、时尚、音乐与人生

The following is a conversation with Ivanka Trump, businesswoman, real estate developer, and former senior advisor to the president of the United States.

以下是与女商人、房地产开发商、美国总统前高级顾问伊万卡·特朗普的对话。

00:00 I’ve gotten to know Ivanka well over the past two years.

在过去的两年里，我对伊万卡有了一定的了解。

We’ve become good friends, hitting it off right away over our mutual love of reading, especially philosophical writings from Marcus Aurelius, Joseph Campbell, Alan Watts, Victor Franco, and so on.

我们成了好朋友，一拍即合，因为我们都喜欢阅读，尤其是马库斯·奥勒留、约瑟夫·坎贝尔、艾伦·瓦茨、维克多·弗朗哥等人的哲学著作。

00:27 She is a truly kind, compassionate, and thoughtful human being.

她是一个真正善良、富有同情心、有思想的人。

In the past, people have attacked her, in my view, to get indirectly at her dad, Donald Trump, as part of a dirty game of politics and clickbait journalism.

在我看来，过去人们攻击她是为了间接攻击她的父亲唐纳德·特朗普，这是肮脏的政治游戏和标题党新闻的一部分。

These attacks obscured many projects and efforts, often bipartisan, that she helped get done, and they obscured the truth of who she is as a human being.

这些攻击掩盖了她帮助完成的许多项目和努力（通常是两党合作），也掩盖了她作为一个人的真相。

Through all that, she never returned the attacks with anything but kindness and always walked through the fire of it all with grace.

尽管经历了这一切，她从来没有以善意来回应这些攻击，并且总是优雅地走过这一切的火焰。

For this, and much more, she is an inspiration and I’m honored to be able to call her a friend.

为此，以及更多，她是一个灵感，我很荣幸能够称她为朋友。

01:12 Oh, and for those living in the United States, happy upcoming 4th of July.

哦，对于那些居住在美国的人来说，即将到来的 7 月 4 日快乐。

It’s both an anniversary of this country’s Declaration of Independence and an anniversary of my immigrating here to the U.S. I’m forever grateful for this amazing country, for this amazing life, for all of you who have given a chance to a silly kid like me.

这既是这个国家《独立宣言》的周年纪念日，也是我移民到美国的周年纪念日。我永远感激这个神奇的国家，感激这种神奇的生活，感谢所有给我这样一个傻孩子机会的人。

From the bottom of my heart, thank you.

我从心底里感谢你们。

I love you all.

我爱你们。

01:46 This is the Lex Fridman Podcast.

这是莱克斯·弗里德曼播客。

To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description.

为了支持它，请在说明中查看我们的赞助商。

And now, dear friends, here’s Ivanka Trump.

现在，亲爱的朋友们，这是伊万卡·特朗普。

01:57 You said that ever since you were young, you wanted to be a builder, that you loved the idea of designing beautiful city skylines, especially in New York City.

你说，从你年轻的时候起，你就想成为一名建筑商，你喜欢设计美丽的城市天际线的想法，尤其是在纽约市。

I love the New York City skyline.

我喜欢纽约市的天际线。

So, describe the origins of that love of building.

那么，请描述一下对建筑的热爱的起源。

I think there’s both an incredible confidence and a total insecurity that comes with youth.

我认为年轻人既有令人难以置信的自信，也有完全的不安全感。

02:11 So, I remember at 15, I would look out over the city skyline from my bedroom window in New York and imagine where I could contribute and add value, in a way that I look back on and completely laugh at how confident I was.

所以，我记得 15 岁时，我会从纽约卧室的窗户眺望城市天际线，想象我可以在哪些方面做出贡献并增加价值，当我回顾过去时，我会完全嘲笑自己是多么自信。

But I’ve known since some of my earliest memories, it’s something I’ve wanted to do.

但从我最早的记忆开始，我就知道这是我想做的事情。

And I think fundamentally, I love art.

我认为从根本上来说，我热爱艺术。

I love expressions of beauty in so many different forms.

我喜欢以多种不同形式表达美。

02:52 With architecture, there’s the tangible, and I think that marriage of function and something that exists beyond yourself is very compelling.

建筑是有形的，我认为功能与超越自身的东西的结合是非常引人注目的。

I also grew up in a family where my mother was in the real estate business, working alongside my father.

我也在一个家庭中长大，我的母亲从事房地产行业，与父亲一起工作。

My father was in the business.

我父亲是做生意的。

And I saw the joy that it brought to them.

我看到了它给他们带来的快乐。

So, I think I had these natural positive associations.

所以，我认为我有这些自然的积极联想。

They used to send me as a little girl, renderings of projects they were about to embark on with notes, asking if I would hurry up and finish school so I could come join them.

当我还是个小女孩的时候，他们常常给我寄来他们即将开始的项目效果图和笔记，询问我是否能尽快完成学业，这样我就可以加入他们的行列。

03:27 So, I had these positive associations, but it came from something within myself.

所以，我有这些积极的联想，但它来自我内心的某些东西。

I think that as I got older and as I got involved in real estate, I realized that it was so multidisciplinary.

我认为，随着年龄的增长，当我涉足房地产行业时，我意识到它是跨学科的。

You have, of course, the design, but you also have engineering, the brass tacks of construction.

当然，你有设计，但你也有工程，即施工的大头钉。

There’s time management, there’s project planning.

有时间管理，有项目规划。

Just the duration of time to complete one of these iconic structures, it’s enormous.

仅完成这些标志性建筑之一所需的时间就非常巨大。

You can contribute a decade of your life to one project.

你可以为一个项目贡献你一生的十年。

So, while you have to think big picture, it means you really have to care deeply about the details because you live with them.

因此，虽然您必须考虑大局，但这意味着您确实必须非常关心细节，因为您与它们一起生活。

So, it allowed me to flex a lot of areas of interest.

所以，它让我能够接触到很多感兴趣的领域。

I love that confidence of youth.

我喜欢青春的那种自信。

It’s funny because we’re all so insecure, right?

这很有趣，因为我们都很没有安全感，对吧？

04:13 In the most basic interactions, but yet, our ambitions are so unbridled in a way that kind of makes you blush as an adult.

然而，在最基本的互动中，我们的野心是如此肆无忌惮，以至于让作为成年人的你脸红。

And I think it’s fun.

我认为这很有趣。

It’s fun to tap into that energy.

利用这种能量很有趣。

Yeah, where everything is possible.

是的，一切皆有可能。

04:28 I think some of the greatest builders I’ve ever met, kind of always have that little flame of everything is possible, still burning.

我认为我见过的一些最伟大的建设者总是拥有一切皆有可能的小火焰，并且仍在燃烧。

That is a silly notion from youth, but it’s not so silly.

这是年轻人的愚蠢想法，但其实并不那么愚蠢。

Everybody tells you something is impossible, but if you continue believing that it’s possible and to have that sort of naive notion that you could do it, even if it’s exceptionally difficult, that naive notion turns into some of the greatest projects ever done.

每个人都告诉你有些事情是不可能的，但如果你继续相信它是可能的，并且有一种天真的想法，认为你可以做到，即使它异常困难，这种天真的想法就会变成一些有史以来最伟大的项目。

A hundred percent.

百分之一百。

Going out to space or building a new company where like everybody said, it’s impossible, taking on that gigantic company and disrupting them and revolutionizing how stuff is done, or doing huge building projects where, like you said, so many people are involved in making that happen.

进入太空或建立一家新公司，就像每个人都说的那样，这是不可能的，挑战那家大公司并颠覆它们并彻底改变工作方式，或者进行大型建筑项目，就像你说的，有这么多人参与实现这一目标。

We get conditioned out of that feeling.

我们会因这种感觉而受到制约。

Yeah.

是的。

We start to become insecure, and we start to rely on the input or validation of others, and it takes us away from that core drive and ambition.

我们开始变得不安全，我们开始依赖他人的意见或认可，这让我们远离了核心动力和野心。

05:16 So, it’s fun to reflect on that and also to smile, right?

所以，反思这一点并微笑是很有趣的，对吧？

Because whether you can execute or not, time will tell.

因为执行与否，时间会证明一切。

But yeah, no, that was very much my childhood.

但是，是的，不，那是我的童年。

Yeah, of course, it’s important to also have the humility of once you get humbled and realize that it’s actually a lot of work to build.

是的，当然，当你感到谦卑并意识到这实际上需要做很多工作时，保持谦逊也很重要。

Yeah.

是的。

I still am amazed just looking at big buildings, big bridges, that human beings are able to get together and build those things.

光是看到大型建筑、桥梁，我仍然感到惊讶，人类能够聚集在一起建造这些东西。

05:50 That’s one of my favorite things about architecture is just like, wow.

这是我最喜欢建筑的事情之一，就像，哇。

It’s a manifestation of the fact that humans can collaborate and do something epic, much bigger than themselves, and it’s like a statue that represents that and it can be there for a long time.

它体现了人类可以合作并做一些史诗般的事情，比他们自己更伟大的事情，它就像代表这一点的雕像，并且可以长期存在。

Yeah.

是的。

06:15 I think, in some ways, you look out at different city skylines and it’s almost like a visual depiction of ambition realized, right?

我认为，在某些方面，你看到不同的城市天际线，这几乎就像是实现雄心壮志的视觉描绘，对吧？

Yeah.

是的。

It’s a testament to somebody’s dream.

这是某人梦想的证明。

06:26 Not somebody, a whole ensemble of people’s dreams and visions and triumphs, and in some cases, failures, if the projects weren’t properly executed.

不是某个人，而是人们的梦想、愿景和胜利的整体，如果项目没有正确执行，在某些情况下还会失败。

So, you look at these skylines, and it’s a testament to that.

所以，你看看这些天际线，它就证明了这一点。

I actually heard once architecture described as frozen music.

我实际上曾经听过建筑被描述为冻结的音乐。

That really resonated with me.

这确实引起了我的共鸣。

I love thinking about a city skyline as an ensemble of dreams realized.

我喜欢将城市天际线视为实现梦想的整体。

Yeah.

是的。

06:58 I remember the first time I went to Dubai and I was watching them dredging out and creating these man-made islands.

我记得第一次去迪拜时，我看到他们挖掘并建造这些人造岛屿。

And I remember somebody once saying to me, they’re an architect, an architect actually who collaborated with us on our tower in Chicago.

我记得有人曾经对我说过，他们是一名建筑师，实际上是一名与我们合作建造芝加哥塔楼的建筑师。

He said that the only thing that limited what an architect could do in that area was gravity and imagination.

他说，唯一限制建筑师在该领域所能做的就是重力和想象力。

Yeah, but gravity is a tricky one to work against, and that’s where civil engineer is one of my favorite things.

是的，但是重力是一个棘手的问题，这就是土木工程师是我最喜欢的事情之一。

07:28 I used to build bridges in high school for physics classes.

我曾经在高中的物理课上搭建桥梁。

You have to build bridges and you compete on how much weight they can carry relative to their own weight.

你必须建造桥梁，并竞争他们相对于自身重量能够承载多少重量。

You study how good it is by finding its breaking point.

你可以通过找到它的突破点来研究它有多好。

And that was a deep appreciation for me, on a miniature scale of on a large scale, what people are able to do with civil engineering because gravity is a tricky one to fight against.

这对我来说是一种深深的赞赏，无论是在小规模还是大规模上，人们能够利用土木工程做些什么，因为重力是一个很难对抗的东西。

It definitely is.

绝对是。

07:57 And bridges, I mean, some of the iconic designs in our country are incredible bridges.

我的意思是，桥梁，我们国家的一些标志性设计都是令人难以置信的桥梁。

So, if we think of skylines as ensembles of dreams realized, you spent quite a bit of time in New York.

因此，如果我们将天际线视为实现梦想的整体，那么您在纽约度过了相当多的时间。

08:04 What do you love about and what do you think about the New York City skyline?

您喜欢什么？您对纽约市的天际线有何看法？

What’s a good picture?

什么是好图？

We’re looking here at a few.

我们在这里看一些。

I mean, looking over the water.

我的意思是，看着水面。

Well, I think the water’s an unbelievable feature of the New York skyline as you see the island on approach.

嗯，我认为当你看到靠近的岛屿时，水是纽约天际线令人难以置信的一个特征。

08:22 And oftentimes, you’ll see, like in these images, you’ll see these towers reflecting off of the water’s surface.

通常，您会看到，就像在这些图像中一样，您会看到这些塔在水面上反射。

So, I think there’s something very beautiful and unique about that.

所以，我认为这有一些非常美丽和独特的东西。

08:43 When I look at New York, I see this unbelievable sort of tapestry of different types of architecture.

当我看纽约时，我看到了令人难以置信的不同类型建筑的挂毯。

So, you have the Gothic form as represented by buildings like the Woolworth Building.

所以，你就有了以伍尔沃斯大厦等建筑为代表的哥特式形式。

Or, you’ll have Art Deco as represented by buildings like 40 Wall Street or the Chrysler Building or Rockefeller Center.

或者，您会看到以华尔街 40 号、克莱斯勒大厦或洛克菲勒中心等建筑为代表的装饰艺术风格。

And then, you’ll have these unbelievable super modern examples, or modernist examples like Lever House and Seagram’s House.

然后，你就会看到这些令人难以置信的超现代例子，或者像利华之家和西格拉姆之家这样的现代主义例子。

So, you have all of these different styles, and I think to build in New York, you’re really building the best of the best.

所以，你拥有所有这些不同的风格，我认为在纽约建造，你真的是在建造最好的。

So, nobody’s giving New York their second-rate work.

所以，没有人会给纽约提供二流的作品。

09:24 And especially when a lot of those buildings were built, there was this incredible competition happening between New York and Chicago for kind of dominance of the sky and for who could create the greatest skyline, that sort of race to the sky when skyscrapers were first being built, starting in Chicago and then, New York surpassing that in terms of height, at least, with the Empire State Building.

尤其是当许多这样的建筑建成后，纽约和芝加哥之间发生了一场令人难以置信的竞争，争夺天空的主导地位，以及谁能创造出最伟大的天际线，就像摩天大楼刚建成时的那种天空竞赛，从芝加哥开始，然后纽约至少在高度上超越了帝国大厦。

09:50 So, I love contextualizing the skylines as well, and thinking back to when different components that are so iconic were added and the context in which they came into being.

因此，我也喜欢将天际线置于背景中，并回想何时添加如此具有标志性的不同组件以及它们诞生的背景。

I got to ask you about this.

我得问你这件事。

10:04 There’s a pretty cool page that I’ve been following on X, Architecture & Tradition, and they celebrate traditional schools of architecture.

我一直在关注 X，建筑与传统，这是一个非常酷的页面，他们庆祝传统的建筑学校。

And you mentioned Gothic, the tapestry.

你提到了哥特式，挂毯。

This is in Chicago, the Tribune Tower in Chicago.

这是在芝加哥，芝加哥的论坛报大厦。

So, what do you think about that, the old and the new mixed together?

那么，对于新旧混杂的现象，你怎么看？

Do you like Gothic?

你喜欢哥特式吗？

I think it’s hard to look at something like the Tribune Tower and not be completely in awe.

我认为看到像论坛报大厦这样的东西，很难不感到完全的敬畏。

10:25 This is an unbelievable building.

这是一座令人难以置信的建筑。

Look at those buttresses and you’ve got gargoyles hanging off of it.

看看那些扶壁，​​上面挂着石像鬼。

And this style was reminiscent of the cathedrals of Europe, which was very in vogue in the 1920s here in America.

这种风格让人想起欧洲的大教堂，这种风格在 20 年代的美国非常流行。

Actually, I mentioned the Woolworth Tower before.

事实上，我之前提到过伍尔沃斯塔。

The Woolworth Tower was actually referred to as the Cathedral of Commerce, because it also was in that Gothic style.

伍尔沃斯塔实际上被称为商业大教堂，因为它也是哥特式风格。

Amazing.

惊人的。

So, this was built maybe a decade before the Tribune building, but the Tribune building to me is, it’s almost not replicable.

所以，这座建筑可能比论坛报大楼早十年建成，但对我来说，论坛报大楼几乎是不可复制的。

11:00 It personally really resonates with me because one of the first projects I ever worked on was building Trump Chicago, which was this beautiful, elegant, super modern, all glass skyscraper, right across the way.

就我个人而言，它确实引起了我的共鸣，因为我参与的第一个项目是建造特朗普芝加哥，这是一座美丽、优雅、超现代的全玻璃摩天大楼，就在街对面。

So, it was right across the river.

所以，它就在河对岸。

So, I would look out the windows as it was under construction, or be standing quite literally on rebar of the building, looking out at the Tribune and incredibly inspired.

因此，当建筑正在建设中时，我会向窗外望去，或者站在建筑物的钢筋上，眺望论坛报，并获得令人难以置信的灵感。

And now, the reflective glass of the building reflects back not only the river, but also the Tribune building and other buildings on Michigan Avenue.

而现在，大楼的反光玻璃不仅能反射河流，还能反射论坛报大楼和密歇根大道上的其他建筑。

Do you like it when the reflective properties of the glass is part of the architecture?

当玻璃的反光特性成为建筑的一部分时，您喜欢吗？

I think it depends.

我认为这取决于。

11:51 They have super-reflective glass that sometimes doesn’t work.

他们有超反光玻璃，但有时不起作用。

It’s distracting.

这很分散注意力。

And I think it’s one component of sort of a composition that comes together.

我认为这是组合在一起的作品的一个组成部分。

I think in this case, the glass on Trump Chicago is very beautiful.

我认为在这种情况下，特朗普芝加哥的玻璃非常漂亮。

It was designed by Adrian Smith of Skidmore, Owings & Merrill, a major architecture firm who actually did the Burj Khalifa in Dubai, which is, I think, an awe-inspiring example of modern architecture.

它是由 Skidmore, Owings & Merrill 的阿德里安·史密斯 (Adrian Smith) 设计的，这家大型建筑公司实际上是迪拜哈利法塔的设计者，我认为这是现代建筑的一个令人惊叹的例子。

12:23 But glass is tricky.

但玻璃是很棘手的。

You have to get the shade right.

你必须选择正确的阴影。

Some glass has a lot of iron in it and gets super green, and that’s a choice.

有些玻璃含有大量铁，会变得超级绿色，这是一种选择。

And sometimes you have more blue properties, blue-silver, like you see here, but it’s part of the character.

有时你有更多的蓝色属性，蓝银，就像你在这里看到的那样，但它是角色的一部分。

How do you know what it’s actually going to look like when it’s done?

你怎么知道它完成后实际上会是什么样子？

12:40 Is it possible to imagine that?

可以想象吗？

Because it feels like there’s so many variables.

因为感觉变数太多了。

I think so.

我想是的。

12:48 I think if you have a vivid imagination, and if you sit with it, and then if you also go beyond the rendering, right?

我想如果你有一个生动的想象力，如果你坐在那里，然后如果你也超越了渲染，对吗？

You have to live with the materials.

你必须忍受这些材料。

So, you don’t build a 92-story building glass curtain wall and not deeply examine the actual curtain wall before purchasing it.

所以，你不会建造一座92层的建筑玻璃幕墙，在购买它之前不深入检查实际的幕墙。

So, you have to spend a lot of time with the actual materials, not just the beautiful artistic renderings, which can be incredibly misleading.

因此，您必须花费大量时间在实际材料上，而不仅仅是美丽的艺术效果图，这可能会产生极大的误导。

13:21 The goal is actually that the end result is much, much more compelling than what the architect or artist rendered.

实际上，我们的目标是最终结果比建筑师或艺术家渲染的结果更加引人注目。

But oftentimes, that’s very much not the case.

但通常情况并非如此。

Sometimes also, you mentioned context, sometimes I’ll see renderings of buildings, I’m like, wait, what about the building right to the left of it that’s blocking 80% of its views of the …

有时也，你提到了背景，有时我会看到建筑物的效果图，我想，等等，它左边的建筑物怎么样，它挡住了 80% 的视野……

Architects, they’ll remove things that are inconvenient.

建筑师，他们会移除不方便的东西。

So, you have to be rooted in-

所以，你必须扎根于——

In reality.

现实中。

In reality.

现实中。

13:53 Exactly.

确切地。

And I love the notion of living with the materials in contrast to living in the imagined world of the drawings.

我喜欢与材料一起生活的概念，而不是生活在绘画的想象世界中。

Yeah.

是的。

So, both are probably important, because you have to dream the thing into existence, but you also have to be rooted in what the thing is actually going to look like in the context of everything else.

所以，两者可能都很重要，因为你必须梦想事物的存在，但你也必须植根于事物在其他一切背景下的实际外观。

A hundred percent.

百分之一百。

One of the underlying principles of the page I just mentioned, and I hear folks mention this a lot, is that modern architecture is kind of boring, that it lacks soul and beauty.

我刚才提到的页面的基本原则之一（我经常听到人们提到这一点）是，现代建筑有点无聊，缺乏灵魂和美感。

14:13 And you just spoke with admiration for both modern and for Gothic, for older architecture.

您刚才谈到了对现代建筑、哥特式建筑和古老建筑的钦佩。

So, do you think there’s truth that modern architecture is boring?

那么，您认为现代建筑确实很无聊吗？

I’m living in Miami currently, so I see a lot of super uninspired glass boxes on the waterfront, but I think exceptional things shouldn’t be the norm.

我目前住在迈阿密，所以我在海滨看到了很多超级平庸的玻璃盒子，但我认为特殊的东西不应该成为常态。

14:34 They’re typically rare.

它们通常很罕见。

And I think in modern architecture, you find an abundance of amazing examples of super compelling and innovative building designs.

我认为在现代建筑中，你会发现大量令人惊叹的超级引人注目和创新建筑设计的例子。

I mean, I mentioned the Burj Khalifa.

我的意思是，我提到了哈利法塔。

It is awe-inspiring.

这是令人敬畏的。

This is an unbelievably striking example of modern architecture.

这是现代建筑令人难以置信的引人注目的例子。

You look at some older examples, the Sydney Opera House.

你看一些更古老的例子，悉尼歌剧院。

And so, I think there’s unbelievable …

所以，我认为这是令人难以置信的……

There you go.

就这样吧。

I mean, that’s like a needle in the sky.

我的意思是，这就像天空中的一根针。

Yeah.

是的。

15:19 Reaching out to the stars.

伸手去接触星星。

It’s huge.

这是巨大的。

15:21 And in the context of a city where there’s a lot of height.

而且是在一个高度很高的城市的背景下。

So, it’s unbelievable.

所以，这令人难以置信。

But I think one of the things that’s probably exciting me the most about architecture right now is the innovation that’s happening within it.

但我认为目前建筑最让我兴奋的事情之一可能就是其中发生的创新。

There’s example of robotic fabrication, there’s 3D printing.

有机器人制造的例子，有 3D 打印的例子。

Your friend and who you introduced me to not too long ago, Neri Oxman, which he’s doing at the intersection of biology and technology and thinking about how to create more sustainable development practices, quite literally trying to create materials that will biodegrade back into the earth.

你的朋友，也是你不久前向我介绍的，内里·奥克斯曼（Neri Oxman），他正在生物学和技术的交叉领域从事这项工作，并思考如何创造更可持续的发展实践，毫不夸张地说，是在尝试创造能够生物降解回到地球的材料。

16:04 I think there’s something really cool happening now with the rediscovery of ancient building techniques.

我认为随着古代建筑技术的重新发现，现在正在发生一些非常酷的事情。

So, you have self-healing concrete that was used by the Romans.

所以，你有罗马人使用的自愈混凝土。

An art and a practice of using volcanic ash and lime that’s now being rediscovered and is more critical than ever as we think about how much of our infrastructure relies on concrete and how much of that is failing on the most basic level.

使用火山灰和石灰的艺术和实践现在被重新发现，并且比以往任何时候都更加重要，因为我们思考我们的基础设施有多少依赖于混凝土，以及其中有多少在最基本的层面上出现了故障。

So, I think actually, it’s a really, really exciting time for innovation in architecture.

所以，我认为实际上，对于建筑创新来说，这是一个非常非常激动人心的时刻。

And I think there are some incredible examples of modern design that are really exciting.

我认为现代设计中有一些令人难以置信的例子，非常令人兴奋。

But generally, I think Roosevelt said that, “Comparison is the thief of joy.” So, it’s hard.

但总的来说，我认为罗斯福说过，“比较是快乐的小偷。”所以，这很难。

You look at the Tribune Building, you look at some of these iconic structures.

你看看论坛报大楼，看看其中一些标志性建筑。

One of the buildings I’m most proud to have worked on was the historical Old Post Office building in Washington D.C. You look at a building like that and it feels like it has no equal.

我最自豪的建筑之一是华盛顿特区历史悠久的旧邮局大楼。你看着这样的建筑，感觉是无与伦比的。

Also, there’s a psychological element where people tend to want to complain about the new and celebrate the old.

此外，还有一种心理因素使人们倾向于抱怨新事物并庆祝旧事物。

Always.

总是。

17:14 It’s like the history of time.

这就像时间的历史。

There’s just, people are always skeptical and concerned about change.

只是，人们总是对变化持怀疑态度和担忧。

17:17 And it’s true that there’s a lot of stuff that’s new that’s not good, it’s not going to last, it’s not going to stand the test of time, but some things will.

确实，有很多新东西不好，不会持久，不会经受时间的考验，但有些东西可以。

And just like in modern art and modern music, there’s going to be artists that stand the test of time and we’ll later look back and celebrate them, “Those were the good times.”

就像现代艺术和现代音乐一样，总会有一些艺术家经受住时间的考验，我们稍后会回顾并庆祝他们，“那是美好的时光。”

Yeah.

是的。

When you just step back, what do you love about architecture?

当你退一步思考时，你喜欢建筑的什么？

17:41 Is it the beauty?

这是美丽吗？

Is it the function?

是功能吗？

I’m most emotionally drawn, obviously, to the beauty, but I think as somebody who’s built things, I really believe that the form has to follow the function.

显然，我在情感上最被美丽所吸引，但我认为作为建造事物的人，我真的相信形式必须遵循功能。

17:48 There’s nothing uglier than a space that is ill-conceived, that otherwise, it’s decoration.

没有什么比设计不周的空间更丑陋的了，否则它就是装饰。

And I think that after that initial reaction to seeing something that’s aesthetically really pleasing to me, when I look at a building or a project, I love thinking about how it’s being used.

我认为，在看到一些在美学上真正令我愉悦的东西的最初反应之后，当我看到一座建筑或一个项目时，我喜欢思考它是如何使用的。

18:28 So, having been able to build so many things in my career and worked on so many incredible projects, I mean, it’s really, really rewarding after the fact, to have somebody come up to you and tell you that they got engaged in the lobby of your building or they got married in the ballroom, and share with you some of those experiences.

所以，在我的职业生涯中，我能够建造如此多的东西，并参与过如此多令人难以置信的项目，我的意思是，在事后，有人来告诉你，他们在你大楼的大厅里订婚了，或者他们在舞厅里结婚了，并与你分享了其中一些经历，这真的非常非常值得。

So, to me, that’s equally as beautiful, the use cases for these unbelievable projects.

所以，对我来说，这些令人难以置信的项目的用例同样美丽。

But I think it’s all of it.

但我认为这就是全部。

I love that you’ve got the construction and you’ve got the design, and you’ve got then the interior design, and you’ve got the financing elements, the marketing elements, and it’s all wrapped up in this one effort.

我喜欢你已经完成了施工、设计、室内设计、融资元素、营销元素，所有这些都包含在这一努力中。

So, to me, it’s exciting to sort of flex in all of those different ways.

所以，对我来说，以所有这些不同的方式进行灵活性是令人兴奋的。

Yeah.

是的。

19:26 Like you said, it’s dreams realized, hard work realized.

就像你说的，梦想实现了，努力实现了。

I mean, probably on the bridge side is why I love the function.

我的意思是，可能在桥侧这就是我喜欢这个功能的原因。

In terms of function being primary, you just think of the millions-

就功能为主而言，您只需想到数以百万计的-

Oh my gosh, look at that.

哦天哪，看看那个。

…

……

19:40 bridges-

桥梁-

Go down.

下去吧。

19:43 Look at that.

看看那个。

Yeah.

是的。

19:48 This is Devil’s Bridge in Germany.

这是德国的魔鬼桥。

Yeah.

是的。

19:50 I wouldn’t say it’s the most practical design, but look how beautiful that is.

我不会说这是最实用的设计，但看看它有多漂亮。

Yeah.

是的。

19:55 So, this is probably …

所以，这很可能是……

Well, we don’t know.

好吧，我们不知道。

We need to interview some people whether the function holds up, but in terms of beauty, and then, what we’re talking about, using the water for the reflection and the shape that it creates, I mean, there’s an elegance to the shape of a bridge.

我们需要采访一些人，看看这个功能是否成立，但就美观而言，然后，我们所谈论的，利用水的反射和它所创造的形状，我的意思是，桥梁的形状有一种优雅。

See, it’s interesting that they call it Devil’s Bridge because to me, this is very ethereal.

看，有趣的是，他们称之为魔鬼桥，因为对我来说，这非常空灵。

20:09 I think about the ring, the circle, life.

我想到了戒指、圆圈、生命。

There’s nothing about this that makes me feel …

这件事没有什么让我觉得……

20:19 Maybe they’re just being ironic in the names.

也许他们只是用名字来讽刺。

Unless that function’s really flawed.

除非这个功能真的有缺陷。

Yeah, exactly.

是的，完全正确。

20:26 Maybe-

也许-

Nobody’s ever successfully crossed it.

没有人成功跨越它。

Could cross the bridge.

可以过桥。

20:30 Yeah.

是的。

But I mean, to me, there’s just iconic …

但我的意思是，对我来说，只有标志性的......

I love looking at bridges because of the function.

我喜欢看桥梁，因为它的功能。

It’s the Brooklyn Bridge or the Golden Gate Bridge.

这是布鲁克林大桥或金门大桥。

I mean, those are probably my favorites in the United States.

我的意思是，这些可能是我在美国最喜欢的。

Just in a city, to be able to look out and see the skyline combined with the suspension bridge, and thinking of all the millions of cars that pass, the busyness, us humans getting together and going to work, building cool stuff.

就在一座城市里，能够眺望天际线和吊桥，想到数以百万计的汽车经过，忙碌，我们人类聚在一起工作，建造很酷的东西。

And just the bridge kind of represents the turmoil and the busyness of a city as it creates.

仅仅这座桥就代表了一座城市所创造的混乱和忙碌。

It’s cool.

这很酷。

And the connectivity as well.

还有连接性。

Yeah.

是的。

21:07 The network of roads all come together.

道路网络全部汇集在一起​​。

So, there, the bridge is the ultimate combination of function and beauty.

所以，这座桥是功能与美观的终极结合。

Yeah.

是的。

21:15 I remember when I was first learning about bridges, studying the cable stay versus the suspension bridge.

我记得当我第一次学习桥梁时，研究斜拉桥和悬索桥。

And I mean, you actually built many replicas, so I’m sure you’ll have a point of view on this, but they really are so beautiful.

我的意思是，你实际上建造了很多复制品，所以我相信你对此会有自己的看法，但它们确实非常漂亮。

And you mentioned the Brooklyn Bridge, but growing up in New York, that was as much a part of the architectural story and tapestry of that skyline as any building that’s seen in it.

你提到了布鲁克林大桥，但在纽约长大，它与天际线中看到的任何建筑一样，都是建筑故事和天际线挂毯的一部分。

What in general is your philosophy of design and building in architecture?

您的建筑设计和建造哲学总体来说是什么？

Well, some of the most recent projects I worked on prior to government service were the Old Post Office building and almost simultaneously, Trump Doral in Miami.

嗯，在政府服务之前，我最近参与的一些项目是旧邮局大楼，几乎同时，迈阿密的特朗普多拉尔。

21:51 So, these were both two just massive undertakings, both redevelopments, which in a lot of cases, having worked on ground-up construction redevelopment projects, are in a lot of ways much more complicated because you have existing attributes, but also a lot of limitations you have to work within, especially when you’re repurposing a use.

所以，这都是两项巨大的工程，都是重建工作，在很多情况下，在进行从头开始的建筑重建项目时，在很多方面都更加复杂，因为你有现有的属性，但也有很多你必须处理的限制，特别是当你重新利用用途时。

So, the Old Post Office building on Pennsylvania Avenue was-

所以，宾夕法尼亚大道上的旧邮局大楼是——

It’s so beautiful.

太漂亮了。

It’s unbelievable.

太难以置信了。

22:32 So, this was a Romanesque revival building built in the 1890s on America’s Main Street to symbolize American grandeur.

所以，这是一座建于1890年代的罗马式复兴建筑，位于美国大街上，象征着美国的宏伟。

And at the time, there were post office being built in this style across the country, but this being really the defining one.

当时，全国各地都在建这种风格的邮局，但这确实是最具决定性的。

Still to this day, the tallest habitable structure in Washington.

直到今天，它仍然是华盛顿最高的可居住建筑。

The tallest structure being the monument.

最高的建筑是纪念碑。

The nation’s only vertical park, which is that clock tower.

全国唯一的垂直公园，就是那个钟楼。

But you’ve got these thick granite walls, those carved granite turrets, just an unbelievable building.

但你有这些厚厚的花岗岩墙，那些雕刻的花岗岩塔楼，只是一座令人难以置信的建筑。

You’ve got this massive atrium that runs through the whole center of it that is topped with glass.

你有一个巨大的中庭，贯穿整个中心，顶部是玻璃。

23:19 So, having the opportunity to spearhead a project like that was so exciting.

因此，有机会领导这样的项目真是令人兴奋。

And actually, it was my first renovation project, so I came to it with a tremendous amount of energy, vigor and humility about how to do it properly.

事实上，这是我的第一个改造项目，所以我带着巨大的精力、活力和谦虚的态度来完成它，思考如何正确地完成它。

Ensuring I had all the right people.

确保我拥有所有合适的人选。

We had countless federal and local government agencies that would oversee every single decision we made.

我们有无数的联邦和地方政府机构来监督我们做出的每一个决定。

But in advance of even having the opportunity to do it, there was a close to two-year request for proposal, like a process that was put out by the General Services Administration.

但在有机会这样做之前，就需要进行近两年的征求建议书，就像总务管理局推出的流程一样。

So, it was this really arduous government procurement process that we were competing against so many different people for the opportunity, which a lot of people said it was a gigantic waste of time.

因此，正是在这个非常艰巨的政府采购过程中，我们与许多不同的人竞争这个机会，很多人说这是巨大的时间浪费。

But I looked at that and I think so did a lot of the other bidders and say, “It’s worth trying to put the best vision forward.”

但我看了之后，我认为许多其他竞标者也是如此，并说：“值得尝试提出最好的愿景。”

So, you fell in love with this project?

那么，您爱上了这个项目吗？

24:18 This-

这——

I fell in love.

我坠入爱河了。

24:20 Yeah.

是的。

So, is there some interesting details about what it takes to do renovation, about some of the challenges or opportunities?

那么，关于改造需要什么、面临哪些挑战或机遇，是否有一些有趣的细节？

24:21 Because you want to maintain the beauty of the old and now upgrade the functionality, I guess, and maybe modernize some aspects of it without destroying what made the building magical in the first place.

我想，因为你想保持旧建筑的美丽，现在升级其功能，也许还可以在不破坏这座建筑最初神奇之处的情况下对其某些方面进行现代化改造。

So, I think the greatest asset was already there, the exterior of the building, which we meticulously restored, and any addition to it had to be done very gently in terms of any signage additions.

所以，我认为最大的资产已经在那里，我们精心修复了建筑物的外部，并且在添加任何标牌方面都必须非常温和地进行任何添加。

24:48 The interior spaces were completely dilapidated.

内部空间完全破败。

It had been a post office, then was used for a really rundown food court and government office spaces.

它曾经是一个邮局，后来被用作一个非常破旧的美食广场和政府办公场所。

It was actually losing $6 million a year when we got the concession to build it and when we won.

当我们获得建造它的特许权并获胜时，它实际上每年损失 600 万美元。

And became one of, I think, a great example of public-private partnerships working together.

我认为，它成为公私合作伙伴关系的一个很好的例子之一。

25:33 But I think the biggest challenge in having such a radical use conversion is just how you lay it out.

但我认为进行如此彻底的用途转换的最大挑战在于如何布局。

So, the amount of time …

所以，时间量...

I would get on that Acela twice a week, three times a week, to spend day trips down in Washington.

我每周都会乘坐 Acela 两次，每周三次，在华盛顿进行一日游。

And we would walk every single inch of the building, laying out the floor plans, debating over the configuration of a room.

我们会走遍大楼的每一寸，布置平面图，讨论房间的配置。

There were almost 300 rooms, and there were almost 300 layouts.

房间有近三百个，布局也有近三百种。

So, nothing could be repeated.

所以，一切都不能重复了。

Whereas, when you’re building from scratch, you have a box and you decide where you want to add potential elements, and you kind of can stack the floor plan all the way up.

然而，当您从头开始构建时，您有一个盒子，您可以决定要在哪里添加潜在元素，并且您可以将平面图一直堆叠起来。

But when you’re working within a building like this, every single room was different.

但当你在这样的建筑内工作时，每个房间都是不同的。

You see the setbacks.

你会看到挫折。

So, the setback then required you to move the plumbing.

因此，挫折要求您移动管道。

26:29 So, it was really a labor of love.

所以，这确实是一种爱的劳动。

And to do something like this …

并做这样的事情......

And that’s why I think renovation …

这就是为什么我认为翻新......

We had it with Doral as well.

我们也和多拉一起经历过。

It was 700 rooms, over 650 acres of property.

它有 700 个房间，占地 650 多英亩。

And so, every single unit was very different and complicated.

因此，每个单元都非常不同且复杂。

Not as complicated, in some ways, the scale of it was so massive, but not as complicated as the Old Post Office.

没有那么复杂，从某些方面来说，它的规模如此之大，但也没有老邮局那么复杂。

But it required a level of precision.

但这需要一定程度的精确度。

And I think in real estate, you have a lot of people who design on plan and a lot of people who are in the business of acquiring and flipping.

我认为在房地产领域，有很多人按计划进行设计，也有很多人从事收购和翻转业务。

So, it’s more financial engineering than it is building.

因此，与其说它是在建设，不如说是金融工程。

And they don’t spend the time sweating these details that make something great and make something functional.

他们不会花时间去关注这些使东西变得伟大和实用的细节。

And you feel it in the end result.

你会在最终结果中感受到这一点。

But I mean, blood, sweat, tears, years of my life for those projects, and it was worth it.

但我的意思是，我为这些项目付出了多年的心血、汗水、泪水，这是值得的。

I enjoyed, almost, I enjoyed almost every minute of it.

我几乎享受其中的每一分钟。

So, to you, it’s not about the flipping, to you, it’s about the art and the function of the thing that you’re creating?

所以，对你来说，这与翻转无关，对你来说，这与你所创造的事物的艺术和功能有关？

A hundred percent.

百分之一百。

What’s design on plan?

计划中的设计是什么？

27:45 I’m learning new things today.

我今天正在学习新东西。

When proposals are put forth by an architect and really just the plan is accepted without …

当建筑师提出建议并且实际上只是计划被接受而没有......

27:50 And in the case of a renovation, if you’re not walking those rooms …

在装修的情况下，如果你不走那些房间……

The number of times a beautifully laid out room was on a blueprint and then, I’d go to Washington and I’d walk that floor and I’d realize that there was a column that ran right up through the middle of the space where the bed was supposed to be, or the toilet was supposed to be, or the shower.

有多少次，一个布置精美的房间在蓝图上，然后，我去华盛顿，我走过那层楼，我发现有一根柱子直接穿过应该放床、厕所或淋浴的空间中间。

So, there’s a lot of things that are missed when you do something conceptually without rooting it in the actual structure.

因此，当你在概念上做某件事而不将其植根于实际结构时，就会错过很多事情。

And that’s why I think even with ground-up construction as well, people who aren’t constantly on their job sites, constantly walking the projects, there’s a lot that’s missed.

这就是为什么我认为即使是从头开始建设，如果人们不经常在工作现场，不断地在项目中行走，也会错过很多东西。

I mean, there’s a wisdom to the idea that we talked about before, live with the materials and walking the construction site, walking the rooms.

我的意思是，我们之前讨论过的想法是有智慧的，与材料一起生活，在建筑工地上走动，在房间里走动。

28:41 I mean, that’s what you hear from people like Steve Jobs, like Elon.

我的意思是，这就是你从史蒂夫·乔布斯、埃隆等人那里听到的。

That’s why you live on the factory floor.

这就是为什么你住在工厂车间。

That’s why you constantly obsess about the details of the actual, not of the plans, but the physical reality of the product.

这就是为什么你不断关注实际的细节，而不是计划的细节，而是产品的物理现实。

I mean, the insanity of Steve Jobs and Jony Ive working together on making it perfect, making the iPhone, the early designs, prototypes, making that perfect, what it actually feels like in the hand.

我的意思是，史蒂夫·乔布斯（Steve Jobs）和乔尼·艾维（Jony Ive）疯狂地共同努力，让iPhone变得完美，让iPhone、早期的设计、原型变得完美，让它在手中的实际感觉变得完美。

You have to be there as close to the metal as possible to truly understand.

您必须尽可能靠近金属才能真正理解。

And you have to love it in order to do that.

你必须热爱它才能做到这一点。

Right.

正确的。

29:26 It shouldn’t be about how much it’s going to sell for and all that kind of stuff.

这不应该是关于它要卖多少钱以及诸如此类的事情。

You have to love the art.

你必须热爱艺术。

Because for the most part, you can probably get 90, maybe even 95% of the end result, unless something has terribly gone awry, by not caring with that level of almost like maniacal precision.

因为在大多数情况下，你可能会得到 90%，甚至 95% 的最终结果，除非出现了严重的错误，只要不关心那种近乎疯狂的精确度。

29:33 But you’ll notice that 10% for the rest of your life.

但你会在余生中注意到这 10%。

So, I think that extra effort, that passion, I think that’s what separates good from great.

所以，我认为额外的努力，那种热情，我认为这就是优秀与伟大的区别。

If we go back to that young Ivanka, the confidence of youth, and if we could talk about your mom.

如果我们回到年轻的伊万卡，青春的自信，如果我们可以谈谈你的妈妈。

30:01 She had a big influence on you.

她对你的影响很大。

You told me she was an adventurer.

你告诉我她是个冒险家。

Yeah.

是的。

Olympic skier and a businesswoman.

奥林匹克滑雪运动员和女商人。

30:16 What did you learn about life from your mother?

你从母亲那里学到了什么人生道理？

So much.

就这么多。

30:22 She passed away two years ago now.

她两年前去世了。

And she was a remarkable, remarkable woman.

她是一位非凡、非凡的女性。

She was a trailblazer in so many different ways, as an athlete and growing up in communist Czechoslovakia, as a fashion mogul, as a real estate executive and builder.

她在很多方面都是开拓者，作为一名运动员，在共产主义捷克斯洛伐克长大，作为一名时尚大亨，作为一名房地产高管和建筑商。

Just this all-around trailblazing businesswoman.

就是这位全能的开拓性女商人。

I also learned from her, aside from that element, how to really enjoy life.

除了这个元素之外，我还从她身上学到了如何真正享受生活。

I look back and some of my happiest memories of her are in the ocean-

我回首往事，我对她最幸福的记忆都在大海里——

31:00 …

……

memories of her are in the ocean, just lying on our back, looking up at the sun and just so in the moment or dancing.

她的记忆在海洋里，就这样躺在我们的背上，抬头看着太阳，就这样在当下或跳舞。

She loved to dance, so she really taught me a lot about living life to its fullest.

她喜欢跳舞，所以她确实教会了我很多关于充实生活的知识。

And she had so much courage, so much conviction, so much energy, and a complete comfort with who she was.

她有如此多的勇气，如此多的信念，如此多的能量，并且对自己的身份完全满意。

What do you think about that?

你对此有何看法？

31:27 Olympic athlete.

奥林匹克运动员。

The trade-off between ambition and just wanting to do big things and pursuing that and giving your all to that, and being able to relax and just throw your arms back and enjoy every moment of life.

野心与只想做大事、追求目标并全力以赴，与能够放松、张开双臂享受生活的每一刻之间的权衡。

That trade-off.

那种权衡。

What do you think about that trade-off?

您对这种权衡有何看法？

I think because she was this unbelievable, formidable athlete and because of the discipline she had as a child, I think it made her value those moments more as an adult.

我想，因为她是一位令人难以置信、令人敬畏的运动员，也因为她小时候所受的纪律，我认为这让她作为一个成年人更加珍惜这些时刻。

31:51 I think she was a great balance of the two that we all hope to find, and she was able to find both incredibly serious and formidable.

我认为她是我们都希望找到的两者的完美平衡，她能够同时发现令人难以置信的严肃和强大。

I remember as a little girl, I used to literally traipse behind her at the Plaza Hotel, which she oversaw and actually was her old post office.

我记得当我还是个小女孩的时候，在广场酒店里，我常常跟在她后面，那是她管理的，实际上是她以前的邮局。

It was this unbelievable historic hotel in New York City, and I’d follow her around at construction meetings and on job sites.

这是纽约市这座令人难以置信的历史悠久的酒店，我会在建筑会议和工作现场跟随她。

And there she is, dancing.

她就在那里跳舞。

See?

看？

That’s funny that that’s the picture you pull up.

有趣的是，这就是你调出的照片。

I’m sorry.

对不起。

32:41 The two of you just look great in that picture.

那张照片里你们两个看起来很棒。

That’s great.

那太棒了。

32:45 She had such a joy to her and she was so unabashed in her perspective and her opinions.

她非常高兴，并且毫不掩饰自己的观点和观点。

She made my father look reserved, so whatever she was feeling, she was just very expressive and a lot of fun to be around.

她让我父亲看起来很内向，所以无论她有什么感受，她都很善于表达，而且和她在一起很有趣。

So she, as you mentioned, grew up during the Prague Spring in 1968, and that had a big impact on human history.

所以，正如你提到的，她是在 1968 年布拉格之春期间长大的，这对人类历史产生了重大影响。

33:05 My family came from the Soviet Union.

我的家人来自苏联。

And then the story of the 20th century is a lot of Eastern Europe, the Soviet Union, tried the ideas of communism, and it turned out that a lot of those ideas resulted into a lot of suffering.

然后20世纪的故事是很多东欧、苏联尝试了共产主义的想法，结果发现很多这些想法导致了很多痛苦。

So why do you think the communist ideology failed?

那么你认为共产主义意识形态为何失败了呢？

I think fundamentally as people, we desire freedom.

我认为从根本上说，作为人，我们渴望自由。

33:39 We want agency.

我们想要代理。

And my mom was like a lot of other people who grew up in similar situations where she didn’t like to talk about it that often, so one of my real regrets is that I didn’t push her harder.

我妈妈就像很多在类似情况下长大的人一样，她不喜欢经常谈论这件事，所以我真正的遗憾之一是我没有更努力地推动她。

But I think back to the conversations we did have, and I try to imagine what it’s like.

但我回想起我们确实进行过的对话，并尝试想象那是什么样的。

She was at Charles University in Prague, which was really a focal point of the reforms that were ushered in during the Prague Spring and the liberalization agenda that was happening.

她就读于布拉格查尔斯大学，该大学确实是布拉格之春期间引入的改革和正在发生的自由化议程的焦点。

The dance halls were opening, the student activists, and she was attending university there right at that same time.

舞厅正在开放，学生积极分子，而她正在那里上大学，同时。

So the contrast to this feeling of freedom and progress and liberalization in the spring, and then it so quickly being crushed in the fall of that same year when the Warsaw Pact countries and the Soviet Union rolled in to put down and ultimately roll back all those reforms.

因此，与春天的这种自由、进步和自由化的感觉形成鲜明对比，然后在同年秋天，当华约国家和苏联出面压制并最终推翻所有这些改革时，这种感觉很快就被粉碎了。

34:54 So for her to have lived through that, she didn’t come to North America until she was 23 or 24, so that was her life.

所以为了让她经历这些，她直到23岁或24岁才来到北美，所以这就是她的生活。

As a young girl, she was on the junior national Ski team for Czechoslovakia.

作为一个年轻的女孩，她曾是捷克斯洛伐克国家青少年滑雪队的成员。

My grandfather used to train her.

我祖父曾经训练过她。

They used to put the skis on her back and walk up the mountain in Czechoslovakia because there were no ski lifts.

在捷克斯洛伐克，因为没有滑雪缆车，他们常常把滑雪板背在她的背上，步行上山。

She actually made me do that when I was a child just to let me know what her experience had been.

事实上，当我还是个孩子的时候，她就让我这么做，只是为了让我知道她的经历。

If I complained that it was cold out, she’s like, “Well, you didn’t have to walk up the mountain.

如果我抱怨外面很冷，她会说：“好吧，你不必步行上山。

You’d be plenty warm if you had carried the skis up on your back, up the last run.”

如果你在最后一次跑步时把滑雪板背在背上，就会很暖和。”

I feel like they made people tougher back then, like my grandma.

我觉得他们让当时的人变得更坚强，就像我的祖母一样。

35:39 And you mentioned, it’s funny, they go through some of the darkest things that a human being can go through and they don’t talk about it, and they have a general positive outlook on life that’s deeply rooted in the knowledge of what life could be.

你提到，这很有趣，他们经历了人类可以经历的一些最黑暗的事情，但他们不谈论它，他们对生活有一种普遍积极的看法，这种看法深深植根于对生活可能是什么的了解。

How bad it could get.

情况会变得多么糟糕。

My grandma survived Holodomor in Ukraine, which was a mass starvation brought on by the collectivist policies of the Stalin regime, and then she survived the Nazi occupation of Ukraine.

我的祖母在乌克兰的大饥荒中幸存下来，那是斯大林政权的集体主义政策造成的大规模饥饿，然后她又在纳粹对乌克兰的占领中幸存下来。

Never talked about it.

从来没有谈论过它。

Probably went through extremely dark, extremely difficult times, and then just always had a positive outlook on life.

可能经历过极其黑暗、极其困难的时期，然后一直对生活抱有积极的态度。

And also made me do very difficult physical activity, as you mentioned, just to humble you.

正如你提到的，还让我做了非常困难的体力活动，只是为了让你谦虚。

Kids these days are soft kind of energy, which I’m deeply, deeply grateful for on all fronts, including just having hardship and including just physical hardship flung at me.

现在的孩子们都是一种柔软的能量，我在各方面都深深地感激他们，包括遭遇的困难，包括身体上的困难。

I think that’s really important.

我认为这非常重要。

You wonder how much of who they were was a reaction to their experience.

你想知道他们的身份有多少是对他们的经历的反应。

36:46 Would she have naturally had that forward-looking, grateful, optimistic orientation or was it a reaction to her childhood?

她是否天生就具有前瞻性、感恩、乐观的倾向，或者这是对她童年的反应？

I think about that.

我想了一下。

I look at this picture of my mom and she was unabashedly herself.

我看着我妈妈的这张照片，她毫不掩饰自己。

She loved flamboyance and glamour, and in some ways I think it probably was a direct reaction to this very austere, controlled childhood.

她喜欢华丽和魅力，在某些方面，我认为这可能是对她这个非常朴素、受控的童年的直接反应。

This was one expression of it.

这是它的一种表达。

I think how she dressed and how she presented, I think her entrepreneurial spirit and love of capitalism and all things American was another manifestation of it and one that I grew up with.

我认为她的穿着和表现，我认为她的创业精神和对资本主义以及美国一切事物的热爱是它的另一种表现，也是我成长过程中的表现。

I remember the story she used to tell me about when she was 14 and she was going to neighboring countries, and as an athlete, you were given additional freedoms that you wouldn’t otherwise be afforded in these societies under communist rule.

我记得她曾经告诉我的故事，当时她 14 岁，她要去邻国，作为一名运动员，你获得了额外的自由，而这些自由是在共产主义统治下的社会中无法获得的。

37:58 So she was able to travel, where most of her friends never would be able to leave Czechoslovakia, and she would come back from all of these trips where she’d do ski races in Austria and elsewhere, and the first thing she had to do was check in at the local police.

所以她能够去旅行，她的大多数朋友永远无法离开捷克斯洛伐克，她会从所有这些旅行中回来，在那里她会在奥地利和其他地方参加滑雪比赛，而她要做的第一件事就是向当地警察报到。

And she’d sit down, and she had enough wisdom at 14 to know that she couldn’t appear to be lying by not being impressed by what she saw and the fact that you could get an orange in the winter, but she couldn’t be too excited by it that she’d become a flight risk.

她会坐下来，14岁的她有足够的智慧知道，如果她对自己所看到的一切以及冬天可以买到橙子的事实没有留下深刻的印象，那么她就不会显得撒谎，但她也不能因为自己有逃跑风险而太兴奋。

Oh, boy.

哦，男孩。

So give enough details that you are believable, but not so many that you’re not trusted.

因此，请提供足够多的细节，让你可信，但不要太多，以免不被信​​任。

38:32 And imagine that as a 14-year-old, that experience and having to navigate the world that way.

想象一下，作为一个 14 岁的孩子，那种经历以及必须以这种方式探索世界。

And she told me that eventually all those local police officers, they came to love her because one of the things she’d do is smuggle stuff back from these countries and give it to them to give their wives perfume and stockings.

她告诉我，最终所有当地警察都爱上了她，因为她所做的一件事就是从这些国家走私东西回来，送给他们给他们的妻子香水和袜子。

So she figured out the system pretty quickly, but it’s a very different experience from what I was navigating and the pressures and challenges me as a 14-year-old was dealing with, so I have so much respect and admiration for her.

所以她很快就掌握了这个系统，但这与我所经历的经历以及作为一个 14 岁孩子所面临的压力和挑战非常不同，所以我非常尊重和钦佩她。

Yeah, hardship clarifies what’s important in life.

是的，苦难让我们明白什么是生命中最重要的。

39:21 You and I have talked about Man’s Search for Meaning, that book.

你和我讨论过《人类寻找意义》这本书。

Having an ultimate hardship clarifies that finding joy in life is not about the environment, it’s about your outlook on that environment.

经历过最终的困难表明，在生活中寻找快乐与环境无关，而与你对环境的看法有关。

And there’s beauty to be found in any situation.

在任何情况下都能发现美。

And also, in that particular situation, when everything is taken from you, the thing you start to think about is the people you love.

而且，在那种特殊情况下，当你的一切都被夺走时，你开始想到的是你所爱的人。

So in the case of Man’s Search for Meaning, Viktor Frankl thinking about his wife and how much he loves her, and that love was the flame, the warmth that kept him excited.

因此，在《男人寻找意义》的例子中，维克多·弗兰克尔想到了他的妻子，以及他有多么爱她，而这种爱就是火焰，是让他兴奋的温暖。

The fun thing to think about when everything else is gone.

当其他一切都消失的时候，想想这件事很有趣。

So we sometimes forget that with the busyness of life, you get all this fun stuff we’re talking about like building and being a creative force in the world.

所以我们有时会忘记，在忙碌的生活中，你会得到我们所说的所有这些有趣的东西，比如建设并成为世界上的创造力。

At the end of the day, what matters is just the other humans in your life, the people you love.

归根结底，重要的是你生命中的其他人，你所爱的人。

A hundred percent.

百分之一百。

It’s the simple stuff.

这是很简单的事情。

Viktor Frankl, that book and just his philosophy in general is so inspiring to me.

维克多·弗兰克尔（Viktor Frankl），那本书和他的哲学总体上对我来说非常鼓舞人心。

40:18 But I think so many people, they say they want happiness, but they want conditional happiness.

但我认为很多人，他们说他们想要幸福，但他们想要有条件的幸福。

When this and this a thing happens or under these circumstances, then I’ll be happy.

当这样那样的事情发生或者在这种情况下，我就会很高兴。

And I think what he showed is that we can cultivate these virtues within ourselves regardless of the situation we find ourselves in.

我认为他所展示的是，无论我们处于什么情况，我们都可以在自己内心培养这些美德。

And in some ways, I think the meaning of life is the search for meaning in life.

从某些方面来说，我认为生命的意义就是寻找生命的意义。

It’s the relationships we have and we form.

这是我们拥有和形成的关系。

It’s the experience we have.

这是我们的经验。

It’s how we deal with the suffering that life inevitably presents to us.

这就是我们如何应对生活不可避免地呈现给我们的痛苦。

And Viktor Frankl does an amazing job highlighting that under the most horrific circumstances, and I think it’s just super inspiring to me.

维克多·弗兰克尔（Viktor Frankl）做得非常出色，强调了在最可怕的情况下这一点，我认为这对我来说非常鼓舞人心。

He also shows that you can get so much from just small joys, like getting a little more soup today than you did yesterday.

他还表明，你可以从小小的快乐中得到很多，比如今天比昨天多喝一点汤。

41:17 It’s the little stuff.

这是小事。

If you allow yourself to love the little stuff of life, it’s all around you.

如果你允许自己热爱生活中的小事，它就在你周围。

It’s all there.

一切都在那里。

So you don’t need to have these ambitious goals and the comparison being a thief of joy, that kind of stuff.

所以你不需要有这些雄心勃勃的目标，也不需要拿偷窃快乐的比较之类的东西。

It’s all around us.

它就在我们周围。

The ability to eat.

吃饭的能力。

When I was in the jungle and I got severely dehydrated, because there’s no water, you run out of water real quick.

当我在丛林里时，我严重脱水，因为没有水，很快就会耗尽水。

And the joy I felt when I got to drink.

还有当我喝酒时我感受到的快乐。

I didn’t care about anything else.

我不关心其他任何事情。

Speaking of things that matter in life, I would start to fantasize about water, and that was bringing me joy.

说到生活中重要的事情，我会开始幻想水，这给我带来了快乐。

You can tap into this feeling at any time.

你可以随时利用这种感觉。

Exactly.

确切地。

42:11 I was just tapping in, just to stay positive.

我只是在参与，只是为了保持积极的态度。

Just go into your bathroom, turn on the sink and watch the water to feel good.

只要走进浴室，打开水槽，看着水流，就会感觉良好。

Oh, for sure.

哦，当然。

42:16 For sure.

一定。

It’s good to have stuff taken away for a time.

暂时把东西拿走是件好事。

That’s why struggle is good, to make you appreciate it.

这就是为什么奋斗是好的，让你欣赏它。

To have a deep gratitude for when you have it.

当你拥有它时，要怀有深深的感激之情。

And water and food is a big one, but water is the biggest one.

水和食物是一大类，但水是最大的。

I wouldn’t recommend it necessarily, to get severely dehydrated to appreciate water, but maybe every time you take a sip of water, you can have that kind of gratitude.

我不一定建议，严重脱水才能珍惜水，但也许每次你喝一口水时，你都能有这样的感激之情。

There’s a prayer in Judaism you’re supposed to say every morning, which is basically thanking God for your body working.

犹太教中有一个祈祷词，你应该每天早上说，这基本上是感谢上帝让你的身体工作。

42:40 It’s something so basic, but it’s when it doesn’t that we’re grateful.

这是非常基本的事情，但只有当它不存在时，我们才会感激不已。

So just reminding ourselves every day the basic things of a functional body, of our health, of access to water, which so many millions of people around the world do not have reliably, is very clarifying and super important.

因此，每天提醒自己身体功能、健康和获得水的基本事项，而世界上有数百万人无法可靠地获得这些水，这是非常澄清和非常重要的。

Yeah, health is a gift.

是的，健康是一份礼物。

43:17 Water is a gift.

水是一份礼物。

Yeah.

是的。

Is there a memory with your mom that had a defining effect on your life?

有没有一段关于你母亲的记忆对你的生活产生了决定性的影响？

I have these vignettes in my mind, seeing her in action in different capacities, a lot of times in the context of things that I would later go on to do myself.

我的脑海里浮现出这些小插曲，看到她以不同的身份采取行动，很多时候都是在我后来自己做的事情的背景下。

43:27 So I would go almost every day after school, and I’d go to the Plaza Hotel and I’d follow her around as she’d walk the hallways and just observe her.

所以我几乎每天放学后都会去广场酒店，我会跟着她，她会在走廊里走来走去，观察她。

And she was so impossibly glamorous.

她是如此迷人。

She was doing everything in four-and-a-half-inch heels, with this bouffant.

她做什么事都穿着四英寸半的高跟鞋，头发蓬松。

It’s almost an inaccessible visual.

这几乎是一种难以接近的视觉效果。

But I think for me, when I saw her experience the most joy tended to be by the sea, almost always.

但我认为对我来说，当我看到她的经历时，最大的快乐往往是在海边，几乎总是如此。

Not a pool.

不是游泳池。

And I think I get this from her.

我想我从她那里得到了这一点。

Pools, they’re fine.

泳池，很好。

I love the ocean.

我喜欢海洋。

I love saltwater.

我喜欢咸水。

I love the way it makes me feel, and I think I got that from her.

我喜欢它给我的感觉，我想我是从她那里得到的。

So we would just swim together all the time.

所以我们就一直一起游泳。

And it’s a lot of what I love about Miami actually, being so close to the ocean.

事实上，这也是我喜欢迈阿密的很多原因，因为它离海洋如此之近。

I find it to be super cathartic.

我发现它具有超级宣泄作用。

But a lot of my memories of my mom, seeing her really just in her bliss, is floating around in a body of saltwater.

但我对妈妈的很多记忆，看到她真的很幸福，都漂浮在盐水中。

Is there also some aspect to her being an example of somebody that could be beautiful and feminine, but at the same time powerful, a successful businesswoman, that showed that it’s possible to do that?

她是一个美丽、女性化，但同时又强大、成功的女商人的榜样，这是否也表明她有可能做到这一点？

Yeah, I think she really was a trailblazer.

是的，我认为她确实是一位开拓者。

45:06 It’s not uncommon in real estate for there to be multiple generations of people.

在房地产行业，有多代人的情况并不罕见。

And so on job sites, it was not unusual for me to run into somebody whose grandfather had worked with my grandfather in Brooklyn or Queens or whose father had worked with my mother.

因此，在工作网站上，我经常遇到一个人，他的祖父曾与我的祖父在布鲁克林或皇后区一起工作过，或者他的父亲曾与我的母亲一起工作过。

And they’d always tell me these stories about her rolling in and they’d hear the heels first.

他们总是告诉我这些关于她滚滚而来的故事，他们首先听到的是高跟鞋的声音。

And a lot of times, the story would be like, “Oh gosh, really?

很多时候，故事会是这样的，“天哪，真的吗？

It’s two days after Christmas.

现在是圣诞节后两天。

We thought we’d get a reprieve.” But she was very exacting.

我们以为我们会得到缓刑。”但她对自己要求非常严格。

So I had this visual in my mind of her walking on rebar on the balls of her feet in these four-inch heels.

所以我脑海中浮现出她穿着这双四英寸高跟鞋，脚掌踩在钢筋上行走的画面。

I’m assuming she actually carried flats with her, but I don’t know.

我猜她确实随身带着公寓，但我不知道。

That’s not the visual I have.

那不是我的视觉效果。

46:04 I loved the fact that she so embodied femininity and glamour and was so comfortable being tough and ambitious and determined and this unbelievable businesswoman and entrepreneur at a time when she was very much alone, even for me in the development world.

我喜欢这样一个事实：她如此体现了女性气质和魅力，并且在她非常孤独的时候，即使对我来说，在发展世界中，她也非常孤独，她是如此坚强，雄心勃勃，坚定，是一位令人难以置信的女商人和企业家。

And so many of the different businesses that I’ve been in, there really aren’t women outside of sales and of marketing.

在我从事过的许多不同行业中，除了销售和营销之外，确实没有女性。

You don’t see as many women in the development space, in the construction space, even in the architecture and design space, maybe outside of interior design.

在开发领域、建筑领域，甚至在建筑和设计领域，也许在室内设计之外，你看不到那么多女性。

And she was decades ahead of me, so I love hearing these stories.

她比我早了几十年，所以我喜欢听这些故事。

I love hearing somebody who’s my peer tell me about their grandfather and their father and their experience with one of my parents.

我喜欢听我的同龄人向我讲述他们的祖父和父亲，以及他们与我父母之一的经历。

It’s amazing.

太棒了。

And she did it all in four-inch heels.

她穿着四英寸高跟鞋完成了这一切。

She did it.

她做到了。

47:07 She used to say, “There’s nothing that I can’t do better in heels.”

她常说：“没有什么是我穿高跟鞋做不到的。”

That’s a good line.

这是一条很好的路线。

That would be your exact thing.

那正是你的事情。

47:13 And when I’d complain about wearing something, and it was the early nineties.

当我抱怨穿什么东西的时候，那是九十年代初的事了。

Everything was all so uncomfortable, these fabrics and materials, and I would go back and forth between being super girly and a total tomboy.

一切都那么不舒服，这些面料和材料，我会在超级少女和十足的假小子之间来回徘徊。

But she’d dress me up in these things and I’d be complaining about it and she’d say, “Ivanka, pain for beauty,” which I happen to totally disagree with because I think there’s nothing worse than being uncomfortable.

但她会给我穿上这些衣服，我会抱怨它，她会说，“伊万卡，为了美丽而痛苦”，我完全不同意，因为我认为没有什么比不舒服更糟糕的了。

So I haven’t accepted or internalized all of this wisdom, so to speak, but it was just funny.

所以可以这么说，我还没有接受或内化所有这些智慧，但这很有趣。

She had a very specific point of view.

她有一个非常具体的观点。

And full of good lines, pain for beauty.

并且充满了美好的线条，为美而痛。

It’s funny because just even in fashion, if something’s uncomfortable, to me, there’s nothing that looks worse than when you see somebody tottering around and their heels hurt them, so they’re walking oddly, and they’re not embodying their confidence in that regard.

这很有趣，因为即使在时尚界，如果有什么不舒服的地方，对我来说，没有什么比你看到有人摇摇晃晃、脚后跟受伤更糟糕的了，所以他们走路很奇怪，而且他们在这方面没有体现出他们的自信。

48:00 So I’m the opposite.

所以我是相反的。

I start with, “Well, I want to be comfortable,” and that helps me be confident and in command.

我首先会说，“嗯，我想要舒服一点”，这有助于我自信并掌控一切。

A foundation for fashion for you is comfort.

对您而言，时尚的基础是舒适。

48:24 And on top of that, you build things that are beautiful.

最重要的是，你可以创造出美丽的东西。

And it’s not comfort like dowdy.

这并不像邋遢那样舒适。

48:29 There’s that level of comfort, but-

有那种程度的舒适感，但是——

Functional comfort.

功能舒适。

…

……

48:34 but I think you have to, for me, I want to feel confident.

但我认为你必须这样做，对我来说，我想要感到自信。

And you don’t feel confident when you’re pulling at a garment or hobbling on heels that don’t fit you properly.

当你拉扯衣服或踩着不合脚的高跟鞋时，你会感到不自信。

And she was never doing those things either, so I don’t know how she was wearing stuff like that.

而且她也从来没有做过那些事情，所以我不知道她是怎么穿那样的东西的。

That’s a 40-pound beaded dress, and I know this because I have it and I wore it recently.

那是一条 40 磅重的串珠连衣裙，我知道这一点是因为我有它并且我最近穿过它。

And I got a work out walking to the elevator.

我走到电梯去锻炼了一下。

This is a heavy dress.

这是一件很重的衣服。

And you know what?

你知道吗？

It was worth it.

这是值得的。

It was great.

太棒了。

Yeah, she’s making it look easy though.

是的，不过她让它看起来很容易。

But she makes it look very, very easy.

但她让它看起来非常非常容易。

Do you miss her?

你想念她吗？

So much.

就这么多。

49:12 It’s unbelievable how dislocating the loss of a parent is.

失去父母的痛苦是令人难以置信的。

And her mother lives with me still, my grandmother who helped raise us, so that’s very special.

她的母亲仍然和我住在一起，我的祖母帮助抚养我们，所以这很特别。

And I can ask her some of the questions that I would’ve…

我可以问她一些我本来想问的问题……

Sorry.

抱歉。

I wanted to ask my own mom, but it’s hard.

我想问我自己的妈妈，但很难。

It was beautiful to see.

很漂亮。

49:40 I’ve gotten a chance to spend time with your family, to see so many generations together at the table.

我有机会与你们的家人共度时光，看到这么多代人坐在餐桌旁。

And there’s so much history there.

那里有很多历史。

She’s 97, and until she was around 94, she lived completely on her own.

她已经97岁了，在94岁左右之前，她完全靠自己生活。

49:52 No help, no anything, no support.

没有帮助，没有任何东西，没有支持。

Now she requires really 24-hour care, and I feel super grateful that I’m able to give her that because that’s what she did for me.

现在她确实需要 24 小时的护理，我非常感激我能够为她提供这些，因为这就是她为我所做的。

It’s amazing for me to have my children be able to grow up and know her stories, know her recipes, Czech dumplings and goulash and [foreign language 00:50:28] and all the other things she used to make me in my childhood.

对我来说，让我的孩子们能够长大并了解她的故事、了解她的食谱、捷克饺子和炖牛肉以及[外语00:50:28]以及她在我童年时为我做的所有其他东西，真是太棒了。

But she was a major force in my life.

但她是我生命中的重要力量。

My mom was working, so my grandmother was the person who was always home every day when I came back from school.

我妈妈在工作，所以每天我放学回来时，我奶奶总是在家。

50:43 And I remember I used to shower and it would almost be comical.

我记得我曾经洗澡，这几乎是滑稽的。

I feel like in my memory, and there was no washing machine I’ve seen on the planet that can actually do this, but in my memory, I’d go to shower and I dropped something on the bed and I’d come back into the room after my shower and it was folded, pressed.

我觉得在我的记忆中，我在这个星球上见过没有一台洗衣机可以真正做到这一点，但在我的记忆中，我去洗澡，我把东西掉在床上，淋浴后我回到房间，它被折叠起来，压紧了。

It was all my grandmother.

这一切都是我的祖母。

She was running after me, taking care of me, and so it’s nice to be able to do that for her.

她追着我，照顾我，所以很高兴能为她做到这一点。

Yeah.

是的。

I got from her reading, my grandmother.

我从她的读书中得到了，我的祖母。

51:14 She devoured books.

她如饥似渴地读书。

Devoured books.

吞噬书籍。

She loved the more sensational ones.

她喜欢那些更轰动的东西。

So some of these romance novels, I would pick them up, the covers, but she could look at any royal lineage across Europe and tell you all the mistresses.

因此，我会挑选一些浪漫小说的封面，但她可以看看欧洲各地的任何皇室血统，并告诉你所有的情妇。

All the drama?

所有的戏剧？

All the drama.

所有的戏剧。

51:38 She loved it.

她喜欢它。

But her face was always buried in a book.

但她的脸总是埋在书里。

My grandfather, he was the athlete.

我的祖父，他是一名运动员。

He swam professionally or on the national team for Czechoslovakia, and he helped train my mom, as I was saying before, in skiing.

他是职业游泳运动员，或者是捷克斯洛伐克国家队的成员，正如我之前所说，他帮助训练我妈妈滑雪。

So he was a great athlete and she was at home and she would read and cook, and so that’s something I remember a lot from my childhood.

所以他是一名出色的运动员，而她在家时会读书和做饭，所以这是我童年时记得很多的事情。

And she would always say, “I got reading from her.”

她总是说：“我从她那里读到了书。”

Speaking of drama, I had my English teacher in high school recommended a book for me by D.H.

说到戏剧，我高中时的英语老师给我推荐了一本书，作者是 D.H.

52:10 Lawrence.

劳伦斯.

It’s supposed to be a classic.

它应该是一个经典。

She’s like, “This is a classic you should read.” It’s called Lady Chatterly’s Lover.

她说：“这是一本你应该读的经典著作。”它的名字叫《查泰莱夫人的情人》。

And I’ve read a lot of classics, but that one is straight-up a romance novel about a wife who is cheating with a gardener.

我读过很多经典著作，但那一本完全是一部关于妻子与园丁不忠的浪漫小说。

And I remember reading this.

我记得读过这篇文章。

In retrospect, I understand why it’s a classic because it was so scandalous to talk about sex in a book a hundred years ago or whatever.

回想起来，我明白为什么它是经典，因为在一百年前的书中谈论性是非常可耻的。

In retrospect, you know why she recommended it to you?

回想起来，你知道她为什么向你推荐它吗？

I don’t know.

我不知道。

52:47 I think it’s just sending a signal, “Hey, you need to get out more,” or something.

我认为这只是发出一个信号，“嘿，你需要多出去走走”之类的。

I don’t know.

我不知道。

Maybe she was seeking to inspire you.

也许她是想激励你。

Yeah, exactly.

是的，完全正确。

52:54 Anyway, I love that kind of stuff too, but I love all the classics.

不管怎样，我也喜欢那种东西，但我喜欢所有的经典。

And there’s a lot of drama.

而且有很多戏剧性。

Human nature, drama is part of it.

人性，戏剧是其中的一部分。

What about your dad?

你爸爸呢？

Growing up, what did you learn about life from your father?

成长过程中，你从父亲那里学到了什么人生道理？

I think my father’s sense of humor is sometimes underappreciated, so he had an amazing and has an amazing sense of humor.

我认为我父亲的幽默感有时被低估了，所以他有一种令人惊叹的、令人惊叹的幽默感。

53:12 He loved music.

他热爱音乐。

I think my mom loved music as well, but my father always used to say that in another life he would’ve been a Broadway musical producer, which is hilarious to think about.

我想我妈妈也喜欢音乐，但我父亲总是说，在另一种生活中，他会成为一名百老汇音乐制作人，这想想就很有趣。

But he loves music.

但他热爱音乐。

That is funny to think about.

想想就很有趣。

Right?

正确的？

53:36 Now he DJs at Mar-a-Lago.

现在他在海湖庄园担任 DJ。

So people get a sense of he loves Andrew Lloyd Webber and all of it.

所以人们可以感觉到他热爱安德鲁·劳埃德·韦伯以及他的一切。

Pavarotti, Elton John.

帕瓦罗蒂、埃尔顿约翰。

These were the same songs on repeat my whole childhood, so I know the playlist.

这些是我整个童年时期重复播放的歌曲，所以我知道播放列表。

Probably Sinatra and all that?

也许是西纳特拉之类的？

Love Sinatra, loves Elvis, a lot of the greats.

爱辛纳屈，爱猫王，爱很多伟人。

53:59 So I think I got a little bit of my love for music from him, but my mom shared that as well.

所以我想我对音乐的热爱是从他那里得到的，我妈妈也分享了这一点。

One of the things in looking back that I think I inherited from my father as well is this interest or understanding of the importance of asking questions, and specifically questions of the right people, and I saw this a lot on job sites.

回顾过去，我认为我也从父亲那里继承了这一点，那就是对提出问题的重要性的兴趣或理解，特别是向合适的人提出问题，我在工作网站上经常看到这一点。

I remember with the old post office building, there was this massive glass-topped atrium, so heating and cooling the structure was a Herculean lift.

我记得旧邮局大楼有一个巨大的玻璃顶中庭，因此加热和冷却该结构是一个巨大的电梯。

We had the mechanical engineers provide their thoughts on how we could do it efficiently, and so that the temperature never varied, and it was enormously expensive as an undertaking.

我们让机械工程师提供了他们关于如何有效地做到这一点的想法，这样温度就不会变化，而且这是一项非常昂贵的任务。

I remember one of his first times on the site, because he had really empowered me with this project, and he trusted me to execute and to also rope him in when I needed it.

我记得他第一次来到这个网站的时候，因为他真的给了我这个项目的权力，他相信我能够执行，并且在我需要的时候也能拉拢他。

55:12 But one of the first time he visits, we’re walking the hallway and we’re talking about how expensive this cooling system would be and heating system would be.

但他第一次来访时，我们正在走廊上行走，我们正在谈论这个冷却系统和供暖系统的价格。

And he starts stopping and he’s asking duct workers as we walk what they think of the system that the mechanical engineers designed.

当我们行走时，他开始停下来，询问管道工人他们对机械工程师设计的系统的看法。

First few, fine, not great answers.

前几个答案还不错，但不是很好。

The third guy goes, “Sir, if you want me to be honest with you, it’s obscenely over-designed.

第三个人说：“先生，如果你想让我诚实地告诉你，它的设计实在是太过分了。

In the circumstance of a 1000-year storm, you will have the exact perfect temperature, if there’s a massive blizzard or if it’s unbearably hot, but 99.9% of the time you’ll never need it.

在 1000 年一遇的风暴的情况下，如果有大暴风雪或酷热难耐，您将拥有完全完美的温度，但 99.9% 的情况下您永远不需要它。

And so I think it’s just an enormous waste of money.” And so he kept asking that guy questions, and we ended up overhauling the design pretty well into the process of the whole system, saving a lot of money, creating a great system that’s super functional.

所以我认为这只是巨大的金钱浪费。”所以他不断地问那个人问题，我们最终在整个系统的流程中很好地修改了设计，节省了很多钱，创建了一个功能强大的伟大系统。

56:12 And so I learned a lot, and that’s just one example of countless.

所以我学到了很多东西，这只是无数例子中的一个。

That one really sticks out of in my head because I’m like, “Oh my gosh, we’re redesigning the whole system.” We were actively under construction.

这个问题确实在我脑海中挥之不去，因为我想，“天哪，我们正在重新设计整个系统。”我们正在积极建设中。

But I would see him do that on a lot of different issues.

但我会看到他在很多不同的问题上这样做。

He would ask people on the work level what their thoughts were.

他会询问工作层面的人的想法。

Ideas, concepts, designs.

想法、概念、设计。

And there was almost like a Socratic first principles type of way he questioned people, trying to get down to trying to reduce complex things to something really fundamental and simple.

他询问人们的方式几乎就像苏格拉底第一原则一样，试图将复杂的事情简化为真正基本和简单的事情。

So I try to do that myself to the best I can, and I think it’s something I very much learned from him.

所以我尽力自己做到这一点，我认为这是我从他身上学到的东西。

Yeah, I’ve seen great engineers, great leaders do just that.

是的，我见过伟大的工程师、伟大的领导者就是这么做的。

57:01 You see, you want to do that a lot, which is basically ask questions to push simplification.

你看，你很想这样做，这基本上就是提出问题来推动简化。

Can we do this simpler?

我们可以把这个做得更简单吗？

The basic question is, “Why are we doing it this way?

基本问题是：“我们为什么要这样做？

Can this be done simpler?” And not taking as an answer that this is how we’ve always done it.

这件事可以做得更简单吗？”并且不要将我们一直这样做的方式作为答案。

It doesn’t matter that’s how we’ve always done it.

没关系，我们一直都是这样做的。

What is the right way to do it?

正确的做法是什么？

And usually, the simpler it is, the more correct the way.

通常，越简单，方法就越正确。

It has to do with costs, has to do with simplicity of production, manufacture, but usually simple is best.

它与成本有关，与生产、制造的简单性有关，但通常简单是最好的。

And it’s oftentimes not the architecture or the engineers.

而且通常不是架构或工程师。

57:44 It’s in Elon’s case probably the line worker who sees things more clearly.

在埃隆的例子中，可能是生产线工人看得更清楚。

So I think making sure it’s not just that you’re asking good questions, you’re asking the right people those same good questions.

所以我认为确保你不仅要问好问题，还要向正确的人问同样好的问题。

That’s why a lot of the Elon companies are really flat in terms of organizational design, where anybody on the factory floor can talk directly to Elon.

这就是为什么许多埃隆公司在组织设计方面非常扁平，工厂车间的任何人都可以直接与埃隆交谈。

57:59 There’s not this managerial class, this hierarchy, where [inaudible 00:58:16] have to travel up and down the hierarchy, which large companies often construct this hierarchy of managers where no one manager, if you ask them the question of what have you done this week, the answer is really hard to come up with.

没有这个管理阶层，这个等级制度，[听不清 00:58:16] 必须在等级制度中上下移动，大公司经常构建这样的经理等级制度，其中没有一个经理，如果你问他们这周做了什么，答案真的很难想出。

Usually, it’s going to be a bunch of paperwork, so nobody knows what they’re actually do.

通常，这将是一堆文书工作，所以没有人知道他们实际上在做什么。

So when it’s flat, you can actually get as quickly as possible with when problems arise, you can solve those problems as quickly as possible.

因此，当情况平坦时，您实际上可以尽快解决问题，而当问题出现时，您可以尽快解决这些问题。

And also, you have a direct, rapid, iterative process where you’re making things simpler, making them more efficient, and constantly improving.

而且，你有一个直接、快速、迭代的过程，让事情变得更简单、更高效，并不断改进。

58:56 Yeah.

是的。

It’s interesting.

这很有趣。

You see this in government.

你在政府里看到了这一点。

A lot of people get together, a hierarchy is developed, and sometimes it’s good, but very often just slows things down.

很多人聚集在一起，形成了等级制度，有时这很好，但很多时候只会减慢事情的进展。

And you see great companies, great, great companies, Apple, Google, Meta, they have to fight against that bureaucracy that builds, the slowness that large organizations have.

你会看到伟大的公司，伟大的公司，苹果，谷歌，Meta，他们必须与建立的官僚机构以及大型组织的缓慢作斗争。

And to still be a big organization and act like a startup is the big challenge.

仍然是一个大组织并像初创公司一样行事是一个巨大的挑战。

It’s super difficult to deconstruct that as well once it’s in place.

一旦它就位，解构它也非常困难。

59:28 It’s circumventing layers and asking questions, probing questions, of people on the ground level is a huge challenge to the authority of the hierarchy.

它绕过层级，向基层人员提出问题、探究问题，这是对等级制度权威的巨大挑战。

And there’s tremendous amount of resistance to it.

并且存在巨大的阻力。

So it’s how do you grow something, in the case of a company, in terms of a culture that can scale but doesn’t lose its connection to real and meaningful feedback?

那么，对于一家公司来说，如何发展一种可以规模化但又不失去与真实且有意义的反馈的联系的文化？

It’s not easy.

这并不容易。

I’ve had a lot of conversations with Jim Keller, who’s this legendary engineer and leader, and he has talked about you often have to be a little bit of an asshole in the room.

我与吉姆·凯勒（Jim Keller）进行了很多对话，他是一位传奇工程师和领导者，他谈到你经常必须在房间里成为一个混蛋。

1:00:05 Not in a mean way, but it is uncomfortable.

不是以一种卑鄙的方式，但它是不舒服的。

A lot of these questions, they’re uncomfortable.

很多这样的问题，他们感到不舒服。

They break the general politeness and civility that people have in communication.

他们打破了人们在交流中普遍存在的礼貌和文明。

When you get a meeting, nobody wants to be like, “Can we do it way different?” Everyone wants to just like, “This lunch is coming up, I have this trip planned on the weekend with the family.” Everyone just wants comfort.

当你开会时，没有人会想，“我们可以采取不同的方式吗？”每个人都想这样说：“午餐即将到来，我计划在周末与家人一起旅行。”每个人都只是想要安慰。

When humans get together, they gravitate towards comfort.

当人类聚在一起时，他们会倾向于舒适。

Nobody wants that one person that comes in and says, “Hey, can we do this way better and way different, and everything we’ve gotten comfortable with, throw it out?”

没有人希望有人进来说：“嘿，我们能不能以一种不同的方式做得更好，然后把我们已经习惯的一切都扔掉？”

Not only do they not want that, but the one person who comes in and does that puts a massive target on their back and is ultimately seen as a threat.

他们不仅不希望这样，而且那些进来并这样做的人会给他们带来巨大的目标，并最终被视为一种威胁。

1:01:00 Nobody really gets fired for maintaining the status quo, even if things go poorly.

没有人真的会因为维持现状而被解雇，即使事情进展不顺利。

It’s the way it was always done.

这是一直以来的做法。

Yeah, humans are fascinating.

是啊，人类真是令人着迷。

1:01:17 But in order to actually do great big projects, to reach for the stars, you have to have those people.

但为了真正做伟大的大项目，为了达到明星，你必须拥有这些人。

You have to constantly disrupt and have those uncomfortable conversations.

你必须不断地打断并进行那些不舒服的谈话。

And really have that first principles type of orientation, especially in those large bureaucratic contexts.

并且确实具有第一原则类型的导向，尤其是在那些大型官僚环境中。

So amongst many other things, you created a fashion brand.

除其他事项外，您还创建了一个时尚品牌。

1:01:39 What was that about?

那是关于什么的？

What was the origin of that?

其根源何在？

I always loved fashion as a form of self-expression, as a means to communicate either a truth or an illusion, depending on what kind of mood you were in.

我一直喜欢时尚作为一种自我表达的形式，作为一种传达真理或幻想的手段，这取决于你当时的心情。

1:01:49 But this second body, if you-

但是第二个身体，如果你——

1:02:00 …

……

kind of mood you were in, but this sort of second body, if you will.

你当时的心情，但如果你愿意的话，这是第二个身体。

So I loved fashion and look, I mean my mother was a big part of the reason I did, but I never thought I would go into fashion.

所以我喜欢时尚和外观，我的意思是我的母亲是我这样做的一个重要原因，但我从未想过我会进入时尚界。

In fact, I was graduating from Warden, it was the day of my graduation and Winter calls me up and offered me a job at Vogue, which is a dream in so many ways, but I was so focused.

事实上，我当时正从 Warden 毕业，那一天，Winter 打电话给我，并为我提供了一份《Vogue》的工作，这在很多方面都是一个梦想，但我非常专注。

I wanted to go into real estate and I wanted to build buildings, and I told her that.

我想进入房地产行业，我想建造建筑物，我告诉了她。

So I really thought that that was going to be the path I was taking and then very organically fashion, it was part of my life, but it came into my life in a more professional capacity by talking with my first of many different partners that I had in the fashion space about…

所以我真的认为这将是我正在走的道路，然后非常有机地时尚，它是我生活的一部分，但它以更专业的身份进入我的生活，通过与我在时尚领域的许多不同合作伙伴中的第一个交谈......

1:02:55 He actually had showed me a building to buy.

他实际上给我看了一栋要买的大楼。

His family had some real estate holdings and I passed on the real estate deal.

他的家人拥有一些房地产，我放弃了房地产交易。

But we forged a friendship and we started talking about how in the space that he was in, fine jewelry, there was this lack of product and brands that were positioned for self-purchasing females.

但我们建立了友谊，我们开始谈论他所在的高级珠宝领域如何缺乏针对自我购买女性的产品和品牌。

So everything was about the man buying the Christmas gift, the man buying the engagement ring.

所以一切都是关于那个购买圣诞礼物的男人，那个购买订婚戒指的男人。

The stores felt like that they were all tailored towards the male aesthetic.

这些商店感觉都是为男性审美量身定制的。

The marketing felt like that.

营销就是这样的感觉。

And what about the woman who had a salary and was really excited to buy herself a great pair of earrings or had just received a great bonus and was going to use it to treat herself?

那些有薪水并且非常兴奋地给自己买了一对很棒的耳环或者刚刚收到一笔巨额奖金并打算用它来犒劳自己的女人呢？

So we thought there was a void in the marketplace, and that was the first category.

所以我们认为市场存在空白，这是第一类。

I launched Ivanka Trump Fine Jewelry, and we just caught lightning in a bottle.

我推出了伊万卡·特朗普高级珠宝，我们刚刚在瓶子里捕捉到了闪电。

1:03:52 It was really quickly after that I met my partner who had founded Nine West Shoes, really capable partner, and we launched a shoe collection which took off and did enormously well and then a clothing collection and handbags and sunglasses and fragrance.

很快，我就遇到了我的合作伙伴，他创立了九西鞋业，他是一个非常有能力的合作伙伴，我们推出了一个鞋履系列，取得了巨大成功，然后又推出了服装系列、手袋、太阳镜和香水。

So we caught a moment and we found a positioning for the self-purchasing multidimensional woman.

所以我们抓住了时机，为自我购买的多维女性找到了定位。

And we made dressing for work aspirational.

我们让工作着装成为人们的向往。

At the time, we launched if you wanted to buy something for an office context, the brands that existed were the opposite of exciting.

当时，我们推出了“如果你想购买适合办公室环境的东西”，现有的品牌并不令人兴奋。

Nobody was taking pictures of what they were wearing to work and posting it online with some of these classic legacy brands.

没有人拍下自己上班时穿着的照片，并将其与一些经典的传统品牌一起发布到网上。

Really, it felt very much like it was designed by a team of men for what a woman would want to wear to the office.

真的，它感觉就像是由一组男士为女士在办公室穿的衣服而设计的。

So we started creating this clothing that was feminine, that was beautiful, that was versatile, that would take a woman from the boardroom to an after-school soccer game to a date night with a boyfriend, to a walk in the park with their husband.

因此，我们开始创造这种女性化、美丽、多功能的服装，可以让女性从董事会到放学后的足球比赛，到与男朋友的约会之夜，到与丈夫在公园散步。

1:05:08 All the different ways women live their lives and creating a wardrobe for that woman who works at every aspect of their life, not just sort of the siloed professional part.

女性以不同的方式过着自己的生活，并为那些在生活的各个方面工作的女性打造一个衣柜，而不仅仅是某种孤立的职业部分。

And it was really compelling.

这真的很引人注目。

We started creating great brand content and we had incredible contributors like Adam Grant who was blogging for us at the time and creating aspirational content for working women.

我们开始创造出色的品牌内容，我们有像亚当·格兰特这样令人难以置信的贡献者，他当时为我们撰写博客，并为职业女性创造了令人向往的内容。

It was actually kind of a funny story, but I now had probably close to 11 different product categories and we were growing like wildfire and I started to think about what would be a compelling way to create interesting content for the people who were buying these different categories.

这实际上是一个有趣的故事，但我现在可能有接近 11 个不同的产品类别，而且我们像野火一样发展，我开始思考什么是一种引人注目的方式，可以为购买这些不同类别的人们创造有趣的内容。

And we came up with a website called Women Who Work, and I went to a marketing agency, one of the fancy firms in New York, and I said, “We want to create a brand campaign around this multidimensional woman who works and what do you think?

我们想出了一个名为“工作女性”的网站，我去了一家营销机构，这是纽约最高档的公司之一，我说，“我们想围绕这个多维度的工作女性开展品牌活动，你觉得怎么样？

Can you help us?” And they come back and they say, “You know what?

你能帮助我们吗？他们回来后说：“你知道吗？

We don’t like the word work.

我们不喜欢工作这个词。

We think it should be women who do.”

我们认为应该由女性来做。”

1:06:17 And I just start laughing because I’m like women who do.

我就开始笑，因为我就像女人一样。

And the fact that they couldn’t conceive of it being sort of exciting and aspirational and interesting to sort of lean into working at all aspects of our lives was just fascinating to me, but showed that that was part of the problem.

事实上，他们无法想象在我们生活的各个方面投入工作是令人兴奋的、有抱负的和有趣的，这一事实让我很着迷，但这表明这就是问题的一部分。

And I think that’s why ultimately, I mean when the business grew to be hundreds of millions of dollars in sales, we were distributed at all the best retailers across the country from Neiman Marcus, to Saks to Bloomingdale’s and beyond.

我认为这就是为什么最终，我的意思是，当业务增长到数亿美元的销售额时，我们的产品被分销到全国所有最好的零售商，从 Neiman Marcus、Saks 到 Bloomingdale's 等等。

And I think it really resonated with people in an amazing way and probably not dissimilar to how I have this incredible experience every time somebody comes up to me and tells me that they were married in a space that I had painstakingly designed, I have that experience now with my fashion company.

我认为它确实以一种令人惊奇的方式引起了人们的共鸣，可能就像每次有人来找我并告诉我他们在我精心设计的空间里结婚时所获得的令人难以置信的经历没有什么不同，我现在在我的时装公司也有这种经历。

The number of women who will come up tell me that they loved my shoes or they loved the handbags, and I’ve had women show me their engagement rings.

前来参加的女性人数告诉我，她们喜欢我的鞋子或手提包，而且还让女性向我展示了她们的订婚戒指。

They got engaged with us and it’s really rewarding.

他们与我们订婚，这真的很有意义。

It’s really beautiful.

真的很漂亮。

When I was hanging out with you in Miami, the number of women that came up to you saying they love the clothing, they love the shoes is awesome.

当我和你在迈阿密闲逛时，有很多女性来找你说她们喜欢这些衣服，她们喜欢这些鞋子，这真是太棒了。

All these years later.

这么多年过去了。

All these years later.

这么多年过去了。

1:07:42 What does it take to make a shoe where somebody would come up to you years later and just be just full of love for this thing you’ve created?

怎样才能制作出一双让多年后有人来找你并且对你所创造的东西充满热爱的鞋子？

What’s that mean?

那是什么意思？

What does it take to do that?

需要什么才能做到这一点？

Well, I still wear the shoes.

嗯，我还是穿那双鞋。

I mean, that’s a good starting point, right?

我的意思是，这是一个很好的起点，对吗？

1:07:59 Is to create a thing that you want to wear.

就是创造一件你想穿的东西。

I feel like the product…

我感觉产品...

1:08:02 I think first and foremost, you have to have the right partner.

我认为首先，你必须有合适的合作伙伴。

So building a shoe, if you talk to a great shoe designer, it’s like it’s architecture.

因此，如果你与一位出色的鞋子设计师交谈，制作鞋子就像建筑一样。

Making a heel that’s four inches that feels good to walk in for eight hours a day, that is an engineering feat.

制造出四英寸高的鞋跟，让每天行走八小时感觉良好，这是一项工程壮举。

And so I found great partners in everything that I did.

因此，我在所做的一切事情中都找到了很好的合作伙伴。

My shoe partner had founded Nine West, so he really knew what went into making a shoe wearable and comfortable.

我的鞋履合作伙伴创立了九西，所以他非常了解如何使鞋子耐磨且舒适。

And then you overlay that with great design and we also created this really comfortable, beautifully designed, super feminine product offering that was also affordably priced.

然后你用出色的设计覆盖它，我们还创造了这款非常舒适、设计精美、超级女性化的产品，而且价格也实惠。

So I think it was the trifecta of those three things that I think it made it stand out for so many people.

所以我认为正是这三件事的三重作用使它在很多人中脱颖而出。

I don’t know if it’s possible to articulate, but can you speak to the process you go through from idea to the final thing, what you go through to bring an idea to life?

我不知道是否可以清楚地表达出来，但是你能谈谈从想法到最终的事情所经历的过程，你经历了什么才能将一个想法变成现实吗？

So not being a designer, and this was true in real estate as well, I was never the architect, so I didn’t necessarily have the pen.

所以我不是设计师，在房地产领域也是如此，我从来都不是建筑师，所以我不一定有笔。

1:09:06 And in fashion, the same way.

在时尚界也是如此。

I was kind of like a conductor.

我有点像指挥。

I knew what I liked and didn’t like, and I think that’s really important and that became honed for me over time.

我知道自己喜欢什么、不喜欢什么，我认为这非常重要，而且随着时间的推移，这一点对我来说越来越磨练。

So I would have to sit a lot longer with something earlier on than later when I had more refined my aesthetic point of view.

因此，当我的审美观点更加完善时，我必须提前花更多的时间来思考一些事情。

And so I think first of all, you have to have a pretty strong sense of what resonates with you.

所以我认为首先，你必须对什么能引起你的共鸣有非常强烈的感觉。

And then in the case of my fashion business, as it grew and became quite a large business and I had so many different categories, everything had to work together.

就我的时尚业务而言，随着它的发展并成为一个相当大的业务，我有很多不同的类别，一切都必须协同工作。

So I had individual partners for each category, but if we were selling at Neiman Marcus, we couldn’t have a pair of shoes that didn’t relate to a dress, that didn’t relate to a pair of sunglasses and handbags all on the same floor.

因此，每个类别我都有单独的合作伙伴，但如果我们在内曼·马库斯 (Neiman Marcus) 销售，我们不可能拥有一双与连衣裙无关的鞋子，与一副太阳镜和手袋无关的鞋子都在同一楼层。

1:10:04 So in the beginning, it was much more collaborative.

所以一开始，合作性更强。

As time passed, I really sort of took the point on deciding, this is the aesthetic for the season, these are the colors we’re going to use, these are fabrics, and then working with our partners on the execution of that.

随着时间的推移，我真的开始做出决定，这是本季的审美，这些是我们要使用的颜色，这些是面料，然后与我们的合作伙伴一起执行。

But I needed to create an overlay that allowed for cohesion as the collection grew.

但我需要创建一个覆盖层，以便随着收藏的增长而保持凝聚力。

And that was actually really fun for me because that was a little different.

这对我来说真的很有趣，因为那有点不同。

I was typically initially responding to things that were put in front of me, and towards the end it was my partners who were responding to the things that myself and my team…

我通常最初会对摆在我面前的事情做出反应，到最后，我的合作伙伴会对我自己和我的团队所做的事情做出反应……

But I always wanted to bring the best talent in.

但我一直想引进最优秀的人才。

So I was hiring great designers and printmakers and copywriters.

所以我正在聘请优秀的设计师、版画师和文案撰稿人。

And so I had this almost like…

所以我几乎就像……

That conductor analogy.

那个指挥家的比喻。

I had this incredible group of, in this case, women assembled who had very strong points of view themselves and it created a great team.

我有一个令人难以置信的团队，在这种情况下，女性聚集在一起，她们自己有非常强烈的观点，这创造了一个伟大的团队。

So yeah, I mean, great team is really sort of essential.

所以，是的，我的意思是，优秀的团队确实很重要。

1:11:15 It’s the essential thing behind any successful story.

这是任何成功故事背后的基本要素。

A hundred percent.

百分之一百。

But there’s this thing of taste, which is really interesting because it’s hard to articulate what it takes, but basically knowing A versus B what looks good.

但品味这个东西真的很有趣，因为很难说清楚它需要什么，但基本上知道 A 和 B 哪个看起来不错。

1:11:21 Or without A-B comparison to say, “If we changed this part, that would make it better.” That sort of designer taste, that’s hard to make explicit what that is, but the great designers have that taste, like, “This is going to look good.” And it’s not actually…

或者在没有 A-B 比较的情况下说：“如果我们改变这部分，那就会变得更好。”这种设计师的品味，很难说清楚是什么，但伟大的设计师都有这样的品味，比如，“这看起来不错。”而事实上并非如此……

Again, the Steve Jobs thing, it’s not the opinion poll.

再说一次，史蒂夫·乔布斯的事情，这不是民意调查。

You can’t poll people and ask them what looks better.

你不能对人们进行民意调查并询问他们什么看起来更好。

You have to have the vision of that.

你必须有这样的愿景。

And as you said, you also have to develop eventually the confidence that your taste is good, such that you can curate, you can direct teams.

正如你所说，你最终还必须培养自己的品味良好的信心，这样你就可以策划、指导团队。

You can argue that no, no, no, this is right.

你可以说不，不，不，这是对的。

Even when there’s several people that say, “This doesn’t make any sense.” If you have that vision, have the confidence, this will look good.

即使有很多人说：“这没有任何意义。”如果你有这样的愿景，有信心，这看起来会很好。

That’s how you come up with great designs.

这就是你如何想出伟大的设计的。

It’s a mixture of great tastes as do develop over time and the confidence.

这是随着时间的推移而发展起来的伟大品味和信心的混合体。

And that’s a really hard thing especially, and I think one of the things that I love most about all of these creative pursuits is that ability to work with the best people.

这是一件非常困难的事情，尤其是，我认为在所有这些创造性追求中我最喜欢的事情之一就是与最优秀的人一起工作的能力。

1:12:32 Right now I’m working with my husband.

现在我和我丈夫一起工作。

We have this 1400 acre island in the Mediterranean and we’re bringing in the best architects and the best brands.

我们在地中海拥有这座占地 1400 英亩的岛屿，我们正在引进最好的建筑师和最好的品牌。

But to have a point of view and to challenge people who are such artists respectfully, but not to be afraid to ask questions, it takes a lot of confidence to do that.

但要拥有自己的观点并尊重这些艺术家，但又不要害怕提出问题，需要很大的信心才能做到这一点。

And it’s hard.

这很难。

So these are actually just internal early renderings.

所以这些实际上只是内部早期的效果图。

So we’re in the process of doing the master planning now, but-

所以我们现在正在做总体规划，但是-

This is beautiful.

这很漂亮。

1:13:14 I mean, it’s on a side of a mountain.

我的意思是，它在山的一边。

Yeah, this is an early vision.

是的，这是一个早期的愿景。

1:13:18 Yeah, it’s going to be extraordinary.

是的，这将是非同寻常的。

Amman’s going to operate the hotel for us, and they’re going to be villas, and we have Carbone who’s going to be doing the food and beverage.

安曼将为我们经营酒店，它们将是别墅，我们有卡本负责餐饮。

But it’s amazing to bring together all of this talent.

但将所有这些人才聚集在一起真是太棒了。

And for me to be able to play around and flex the real estate muscles again and have some fun with it is-

对我来说，能够再次发挥房地产的力量并从中获得一些乐趣是——

The real estate, the design, the art.

房地产、设计、艺术。

1:13:38 How hard is it to bring something like that to life because that looks surreal, out of this world?

把这样的东西变成现实有多难，因为它看起来超现实，脱离了这个世界？

Well, especially on an island, it’s challenging, meaning the logistics of even getting the building materials to an island are no joke, but we will execute on it.

嗯，特别是在一个岛上，这是一个挑战，这意味着即使将建筑材料运送到岛上的后勤工作也不是开玩笑，但我们会执行它。

1:13:47 And it may not be this.

也许不是这个。

This is sort of, as I said, early conceptual drawings, but it gives a sense of wanting to honor the topography that exists.

正如我所说，这是一种早期的概念图，但它给人一种想要尊重现有地形的感觉。

And this is obviously very modern, but making it feel right in terms of the context of the vegetation and the terrain that exists is, and not just have a beautiful glass box.

这显然是非常现代的，但就植被和地形的背景而言，感觉是正确的，而不仅仅是一个漂亮的玻璃盒子。

Obviously you want glass.

显然你想要玻璃。

You want to look out and see that gorgeous blue ocean, but how do you do that in a way that doesn’t feel generic and isn’t a squandered opportunity to create something new?

你想向外看，看到那片美丽的蓝海，但如何才能做到这一点，既不会让人感觉很普通，又不会浪费创造新事物的机会呢？

Yeah.

是的。

1:14:38 And it’s integrated with a natural landscape.

并且它与自然景观融为一体。

It’s a celebration of the natural landscape around it.

这是对周围自然景观的庆祝。

So I guess you start from this dream-like…

所以我猜你是从这个梦幻般的开始......

Because this feels like a dream.

因为这感觉就像是一场梦。

And then when you’re faced with the reality of the building materials and all the actual constraints of the building, then it evolves from there, right?

然后当你面对建筑材料的现实和建筑的所有实际限制时，它就会从那里演变，对吗？

Yeah.

是的。

1:14:53 And I mean so much of architecture you don’t see, but it’s decisions made.

我的意思是，很多建筑你看不到，但它是做出的决定。

So how do you create independent structures where you look out of one and don’t see the other?

那么，如何创建独立的结构，让你从一个结构中向外看而看不到另一个结构呢？

How do you ensure the stacking and the master plan works in a way that’s harmonious and view corridors?

如何确保堆叠和总体规划以和谐且景观走廊的方式进行？

And all of those elements, all of those components of decision-making are super appreciated, but not often thought about.

所有这些要素、所有决策的组成部分都受到高度赞赏，但并不经常被考虑。

What’s a view corridor?

什么是观景走廊？

To make sure that the top unit, you’re not looking out and seeing a whole bunch of units, you’re looking out and seeing the ocean.

为了确保顶层单元，你不会向外看并看到一大堆单元，而是向外看并看到海洋。

1:15:26 So that’s where you take this and then you start angling everything and you start thinking about, “Well, in this context, do we have green roofs?” If there’s any hint of a roof, it’s camouflaged by vegetation that matches what already exists on the island.

所以这就是你采取这一点的地方，然后你开始调整一切，你开始思考，“好吧，在这种情况下，我们有绿色屋顶吗？”如果有任何屋顶的迹象，它也会被与岛上现有植被相匹配的植被所掩盖。

That’s where the engineers become very important.

这就是工程师变得非常重要的地方。

How do you build into a mountainside while being sensitive to the beauty of the island?

如何在对岛屿美景保持敏感的同时，建造一座山腰？

It’s almost like a mathematical problem.

这几乎就像一个数学问题。

1:15:56 I took a class, computational geometry in grad school, where you have to think about these view corridors.

我在研究生院上了一门计算几何课，在那里你必须考虑这些视图走廊。

It’s like a math problem, but it’s also an art problem because it’s not just about making sure that there’s no occlusions to the view.

这就像一个数学问题，但它也是一个艺术问题，因为它不仅仅是确保视图没有遮挡。

You have to figure out when there is occlusions, what is a vegetation.

你必须弄清楚何时存在遮挡，什么是植被。

So you have to figure all that out.

所以你必须弄清楚这一切。

And there’s probably…

而且很可能有……

So every single room, every single building is a thing that adds extra complexity.

因此，每一个房间、每一栋建筑都增加了额外的复杂性。

And then the choices, how does the sun rise and set?

然后是选择，太阳如何升起和落下？

1:16:26 So how do you want to angle the hotel in relation to the sunrise and the sunset?

那么您想如何调整酒店与日出和日落的关系呢？

You obviously want people to experience those.

你显然希望人们体验这些。

So which do you favor the directionality of the wind and on an island, and in this case, the wind’s coming from the north and the vegetation is less lush on the northern end.

那么你更喜欢风的方向性和岛屿上的哪一个，在这种情况下，风从北面吹来，北端的植被不太茂盛。

So do you focus more on the southern end and have the horseback riding trails and amenities up towards the north?

那么，您是否更关注南端，并在北端拥有骑马小径和便利设施？

So there are these really interesting decisions and choices you get to reflect on.

因此，您可以反思这些非常有趣的决定和选择。

That’s a fascinating sort of discussion to be having.

这是一种有趣的讨论。

1:17:07 And probably there’s actual constraints on infrastructure issues.

基础设施问题可能存在实际限制。

So all of those are constraints.

所以所有这些都是限制。

Well, the grade of the land, if it’s super steep.

好吧，土地的坡度，如果它非常陡的话。

1:17:15 So also finding the areas of topography that are flatter but still have the great views.

因此，还要找到地势平坦但仍然风景优美的区域。

So it’s fun.

所以这很有趣。

I think real estate and building, it’s like a giant puzzle.

我认为房地产和建筑就像一个巨大的拼图。

And I love puzzles.

我喜欢拼图。

Every piece relates to another, and it’s all sort of interconnected.

每一件作品都与另一件作品相关，而且都是相互关联的。

Yeah.

是的。

1:17:33 Like you sit in a post office, every single room is different.

就像您坐在邮局一样，每个房间都是不同的。

So every single room is a puzzle when you’re doing the renovation.

因此，当您进行装修时，每个房间都是一个难题。

That’s fascinating.

这很有趣。

And if you’re not thoughtful, it’s at best, really quirky.

如果你不深思熟虑，那充其量只是非常古怪。

1:17:42 At worst, completely ridiculous.

最坏的情况是，完全荒谬。

Quirky is such a funny word.

古怪是一个非常有趣的词。

1:17:50 It’s such a-

就是这样一个——

I’m sure you’ve walked into your fair share of quirky rooms.

我相信您已经走进过不少奇特的房间。

1:17:54 And sometimes that’s charming, but most often it’s charming when it’s intentional through smart design.

有时这很迷人，但大多数情况下，当它是通过巧妙的设计有意而为之时，它才是迷人的。

You can tell if it’s by accident or if it’s intentional.

你可以判断这是偶然还是故意的。

1:18:05 You can tell.

你可以说出来。

So much…

这么多……

I mean, the whole hospitality thing.

我的意思是，整个热情好客的事情。

It’s not just how it’s designed.

这不仅仅是它的设计方式。

It’s how once the thing is operating, if it’s a hotel, how everything comes together, the culture of the place.

这就是一旦事物开始运作，如果它是一家酒店，一切都是如何结合在一起的，以及这个地方的文化。

And the warmth.

还有温暖。

1:18:22 I think with spaces, you can feel the soul of a structure.

我认为通过空间，你可以感受到结构的灵魂。

And I think on the hotel side, you have to think about flow of traffic, use, all these things.

我认为在酒店方面，你必须考虑交通流、使用等等所有这些事情。

When you’re building condominiums or your own home, you want to think about the warmth of a space as well.

当您建造公寓或自己的家时，您也需要考虑空间的温暖度。

And especially with super modern designs, sometimes warmth is sacrificed.

尤其是超现代的设计，有时会牺牲温暖。

And I think there is a way to sort of marry both, and that’s where you get into the interior design elements and disciplines and how fabrics can create tremendous warmth in a space which is otherwise sort of colder, raw building materials.

我认为有一种方法可以将两者结合起来，这就是你进入室内设计元素和学科的地方，以及织物如何在一个原本是寒冷的原始建筑材料的空间中创造巨大的温暖。

And that’s a really interesting…

这真的很有趣……

How texture matters, how color matters.

质地很重要，颜色也很重要。

And I think oftentimes interior design is not…

我认为室内设计通常不是......

It doesn’t take the same priority.

它并不具有相同的优先级。

And I think that underestimates the impact it can have on how you experience a room or space.

我认为这低估了它对您体验房间或空间的影响。

Especially when it’s working together with the architecture.

尤其是当它与架构一起工作时。

1:19:30 Yeah, fabrics and color.

是的，面料和颜色。

That’s so interesting.

太有趣了。

Finishes, the choice of wood.

饰面，木材的选择。

That’s making me feel horrible about the space we’re sitting in.

这让我对我们所处的空间感到可怕。

1:19:38 It’s like black curtains, the warmth.

就像黑色的窗帘一样，温暖。

I need to work on this.

我需要为此努力。

No comment.

没有意见。

This is a big [inaudible 01:19:52] item.

这是一个很大的[听不清 01:19:52] 项目。

1:19:52 You’re making me…

你让我……

I’ll listen back this over and over.

我会一遍又一遍地听。

I think you may need…

我想你可能需要……

1:19:54 There may be a woman’s touch needed.

可能需要女人的触摸。

A lot.

很多。

1:19:57 A lot.

很多。

But I actually…

但我其实……

1:19:58 I appreciate the vegetation.

我很欣赏这里的植被。

Yeah, it’s fake plants.

是的，这是假植物。

1:20:00 Fake green plants.

假绿色植物。

You know what I love about this space though is like you come through.

你知道我为什么喜欢这个空间，就像你走过来一样。

1:20:02 Every single element-

每一个元素——

There’s a story behind it.

这背后有一个故事。

There’s a story behind it.

这背后有一个故事。

1:20:10 So it’s not just some…

所以这不仅仅是一些……

You didn’t have some interior designer curate your bookshelf.

你没有让室内设计师来整理你的书架。

It’s like nobody came in here with books by the yard.

好像没有人带着院子里的书来到这里。

This is basically an Ikea…

这基本上是宜家……

1:20:18 This is not deeply thought through, but it does bring me joy.

这虽然没有经过深思熟虑，但确实给我带来了快乐。

Which is one way to do design.

这是进行设计的一种方法。

As long as you’re happy, if your taste is decent enough, that means others will be happy or will see the joy radiate through it.

只要你快乐，如果你的品味足够好，那就意味着其他人也会快乐，或者会看到快乐从你身上散发出来。

But I appreciate you were grasping for compliments and you eventually got there.

但我很感激你一直在寻求赞美，而且你最终还是做到了。

No, I actually…

不，我其实……

1:20:43 I love it.

我喜欢它。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

Do you have a little…

你有没有一点……

I love this guy.

我爱这个人。

Yeah, you’re holding on to a monkey looking at a human skull, which is particularly irrelevant.

是的，你抓着一只猴子看着人类的头骨，这是特别无关紧要的。

I feel like you’ve really thought about all of these things.

我觉得你真的考虑过所有这些事情。

Yeah, there’s robot…

是的，有机器人……

1:21:00 I don’t know how much you’ve looked into robots, but there’s a way to communicate love and affection from a robot that I’m really fascinated by.

我不知道你对机器人有多少研究，但有一种让机器人传达爱和情感的方式，我真的很着迷。

And a lot of cartoonists do this too.

很多漫画家也这样做。

When you create cartoons and non-human-like entities, you have to bring out the joy.

当你创造卡通和非人类实体时，你必须带出快乐。

So with Wall-E or robots in Star Wars, to be able to communicate emotion, anger and excitement through a robot is really interesting to me.

因此，对于《机器人总动员》或《星球大战》中的机器人来说，能够通过机器人传达情感、愤怒和兴奋对我来说真的很有趣。

And people that do it successfully are awesome.

成功做到这一点的人都很棒。

Does that make you smile?

这会让你微笑吗？

Yeah, that makes me smile for sure.

是的，这确实让我微笑。

1:21:37 There’s a longing there.

那里有一种渴望。

How do you do that successfully as you bring them, your projects to life?

当你将它们、你的项目付诸实践时，你如何成功地做到这一点？

I think there’s so many detailed elements that I think artists know well, but one basic one is something that people know and you now know because you have a dog is the excitement that a dog has when you first show up.

我认为有很多细节元素是艺术家们熟知的，但一个基本的元素是人们知道的，你现在知道的，因为你有一只狗，就是狗在你第一次出现时所感受到的兴奋。

1:21:45 Just the recognizing you and catching your eye and just showing his excitement by wiggling his butt and tail and all this intense joy that overtakes his body, that moment of recognizing something.

只是认出你并吸引你的目光，只是通过摆动他的屁股和尾巴来表达他的兴奋，以及所有这些超越他的身体的强烈喜悦，那一刻认出了某些东西。

It’s the double take, that moment of where this joy of recognition takes over your whole cognition and you’re just there and there’s a connection.

这是双重的感觉，那一刻，这种认可的喜悦占据了你的整个认知，你就在那里，并且有一种联系。

And then the other person gets excited and you both get excited together.

然后另一个人变得兴奋，你们俩也一起兴奋。

It’s kind of like that feeling…

有点像那种感觉……

How would I put it?

我该怎么说呢？

When you go to airports and you get to see people who haven’t seen each other for a time all of a sudden recognize each other in their meeting and they’re all run towards each other in a hug?

当你去机场时，你会看到许久未见的人们在见面时突然认出了对方，并且拥抱在一起？

That moment.

那一刻。

By the way, that’s awesome to watch.

顺便说一句，这真是太棒了。

There’s so much joy.

有这么多的快乐。

And dogs though will have that, every time.

但狗每次都会有这样的经历。

1:22:56 You could walk into the other room to get a glass of milk and you come back and your dog sees you like it’s the first time.

你可以走进另一个房间去喝一杯牛奶，当你回来时，你的狗会像第一次看到你一样。

So I love replicating that in robots.

所以我喜欢在机器人中复制这一点。

They actually say children…

他们实际上说孩子……

One of the reasons why Peek-A-Boo is so successful is that they actually don’t remember not having seen you a few seconds prior.

躲猫猫如此成功的原因之一是，他们实际上不记得几秒钟前没有见过你。

There’s a term for it, but I remember when my kids were younger, you leave the room and you walk back in 30 seconds later and they experienced the same joy as if you had been gone for four hours.

有一个术语，但我记得当我的孩子还小的时候，你离开房间，30秒后走回来，他们体验到的快乐就像你离开了四个小时一样。

And we grow out of that.

我们从中成长。

We become very used to one another.

我们变得非常习惯彼此。

I kind of want to forever be excited by the Peek-A-Boo phenomena, the simple joys.

我有点想永远对躲猫猫现象和简单的快乐感到兴奋。

1:23:39 We’re talking about on fashion, having the confidence of taste to be able to sort of push through on this idea of a design.

我们谈论的是时尚，拥有品味的信心，能够推动这种设计理念。

But you’ve also mentioned somebody you admire is Rick Rubin in his book, The Creative Act.

但你也提到你钦佩的人是里克·鲁宾（Rick Rubin），他在他的书《创意行为》（The Creative Act）中提到过。

It has some really interesting ideas, and one of them is to accept self-doubt and imperfection.

它有一些非常有趣的想法，其中之一就是接受自我怀疑和不完美。

So is there some battle within yourself that you have on sort of striving for perfection and for the confidence and always kind of having it together versus accepting that things are always going to be imperfect?

那么，你内心是否存在着某种斗争，即追求完美和自信，始终保持一致，而不是接受事情总是不完美的？

I think every day.

我每天都在想。

1:24:20 I think I wake up in the morning and I want to be better.

我想我早上醒来，我想变得更好。

I want to be a better mom.

我想成为一个更好的妈妈。

I want to be a better wife.

我想成为一个更好的妻子。

I want to be more creative.

我想要更有创意。

I want to be physically stronger.

我想身体变得更强壮。

And so that very much lives within me all the time.

所以这一直存在于我内心。

I think I also grew up in the context of being the child of two extraordinarily successful parents, and that could have been debilitating for me.

我想我也是在两个非常成功的父母的背景下长大的，这可能会让我变得虚弱。

And I saw that in a lot of my friends who grew up in circumstances similar to that.

我在很多在类似环境中长大的朋友身上都看到了这一点。

They were afraid to try for fear of not measuring up.

他们不敢尝试，因为担心达不到标准。

1:25:04 And I think somehow early on I learned to kind of harness the fear of not being good enough, not being competent enough, and I harnessed it to make me better and to push me outside of my comfort zone.

我想我很早就学会了如何驾驭对自己不够好、能力不够的恐惧，我利用它来让自己变得更好，并把我推出自己的舒适区。

So I think that’s always lived with me, and I think it probably always will.

所以我认为这一直伴随着我，而且我想它可能永远都会。

I think you have to have humility in anything you do that you could be better and strive for that.

我认为你必须对所做的任何事情保持谦逊，这样你才能做得更好并为此努力。

I think as you get older, it softens a little bit as you have more reps, as you have more examples of having been thrown in the deep end and figured out how to swim.

我认为，随着年龄的增长，随着次数的增多，你有更多被扔进深水区并学会如何游泳的例子，这种情况会有所缓解。

You get a little bit more comfortable in your abstract competency.

你会对自己的抽象能力感到更加自在。

But if that fear is not in you, I think you’re not challenging yourself enough.

但如果你内心没有这种恐惧，我认为你对自己的挑战还不够。

Harness the fear.

利用恐惧。

1:26:04 The other thing he writes about is intuition, that you need to trust your instincts and intuition.

他写的另一件事是直觉，你需要相信你的本能和直觉。

That’s a very recruitment thing to say.

这是一个非常招聘的事情。

So what percent of your decision making is intuition or what percent is through rigorous careful analysis, would you say?

那么，你认为你的决策中有多少是凭直觉做出的，或者有多少是通过严格仔细的分析做出的？

I think it’s both.

我认为两者都是。

1:26:29 It’s like trust, but verify.

这就像信任，但要验证。

I think that’s also where age and experience comes into play, because I think you always have sort of a gut instinct, but I think well-honed intuition comes from a place of accumulated knowledge.

我认为这也是年龄和经验发挥作用的地方，因为我认为你总是有某种直觉，但我认为磨练的直觉来自于积累的知识。

So oftentimes when you feel really strongly about something, it’s because you’ve been there, you know what’s right.

很多时候，当你对某件事有强烈的感觉时，那是因为你经历过，你知道什么是对的。

Or on a personal level, if you’re acting in accordance with your core values, it just feels good.

或者在个人层面上，如果你按照自己的核心价值观行事，那就感觉很好。

And even if it would be the right decision for others, if you’re acting outside of your integrity or core values, it doesn’t feel good and your intuition will signal that to you.

即使这对其他人来说是正确的决定，但如果你的行为超出了你的正直或核心价值观，你的直觉就会向你发出这样的信号，这会让你感觉不好。

You’ll never be comfortable.

你永远不会舒服。

So I think because of that, I start oftentimes with my intuition and then I put it through a rigorous test of whether that is in fact true.

所以我认为正因为如此，我经常从我的直觉开始，然后我对其进行严格的测试，看看这是否真的正确。

But very seldom do I go against what my initial instinct was, at least at this point in my life.

但我很少违背自己最初的本能，至少在我人生的这个阶段是这样。

Yeah, I had actually a discussion yesterday with a big time business owner investor who’s talking about being impulsive and following that on a phone call, shifting the entire everything…

是的，我昨天实际上与一位大型企业主投资者进行了讨论，他谈论的是冲动，并在电话中遵循这一点，改变了整个一切......

1:27:45 Giving away a very large amount of money and moving it in another direction on an impulse.

捐出大量资金并一时冲动将其转移到另一个方向。

Making a promise that he can’t at that time deliver, but knows if he works hard, he’ll deliver and all…

做出他当时无法兑现的承诺，但知道如果他努力工作，他会兑现一切……

Just following that impulsive feeling.

只是跟着那种冲动的感觉。

And he said now that he has a family, that probably some of that impulse is quieted down a little bit.

他说现在他已经有了家庭，这种冲动可能会稍微平息一些。

He’s more rational and thoughtful and so on, but wonders whether it’s sometimes good to just be impulsive and to just trust your gut and just go with it.

他更加理性和深思熟虑等等，但他想知道有时只是冲动并相信自己的直觉并跟随它是否是件好事。

Don’t deliberate too long because then you won’t do it.

不要考虑太久，因为那样你就不会这么做。

It’s interesting.

这很有趣。

It’s the confidence and stupidity maybe of youth that leads to some the greatest breakthroughs, and there’s a cost to wisdom and deliberation.

也许是年轻人的自信和愚蠢带来了一些最伟大的突破，但智慧和深思熟虑是有代价的。

There is.

有。

1:28:49 But I actually think in this case, as you get older, you may act less impulsively, but I think you’re more like attuned with…

但我实际上认为在这种情况下，随着年龄的增长，你的行为可能会不那么冲动，但我认为你更像是......

You have more experience, so your gut is more well honed.

你有更多的经验，所以你的直觉更加磨练。

So your instincts are more well honed.

所以你的直觉会更加磨练。

I think I found that to be true for me.

我想我发现这对我来说是正确的。

It doesn’t feel as reckless as when I was younger.

感觉不像年轻时那么鲁莽了。

Amongst many other things.

还有许多其他的事情。

1:29:17 You were on The Apprentice.

你在《学徒》里。

People love you on there.

那里的人们爱你。

People love the show.

人们喜欢这个节目。

So what did you learn about business, about life from the various contestants on there?

那么，您从现场的各个参赛者身上学到了哪些关于商业和生活的知识呢？

Well, I think you can learn everything about life from Joan Rivers, so I’m just-

好吧，我认为你可以从琼·里弗斯那里学到生活的一切，所以我只是——

Got it.

明白了。

1:29:37 Just from that one human.

就来自那个人。

Going to go with that.

就这样吧。

1:29:38 She was amazing.

她太棒了。

But it was such a wild experience for me because I was quite young when I was on it just getting started in business, and it was the number one television show in the country, and it went on to be syndicated all over the world, and it was just this wild, phenomenal success.

但这对我来说是一次疯狂的经历，因为我还很年轻，当时我刚刚开始做生意，它是全国第一的电视节目，后来在世界各地联合发行，这就是如此疯狂、惊人的成功。

A business show had never crossed over in this sort of way.

商业秀从未以这种方式跨越。

So it was really a moment in time and you had regular Apprentice and then the Celebrity Apprentice.

所以这确实是一个及时的时刻，你有普通学徒，然后是名人学徒。

But the tasks, I mean, they went on to be studied at business schools across the country.

但我的意思是，这些任务随后在全国各地的商学院进行了研究。

So every other week, I’d be reading case studies of how The Apprentice was being examined and taught to classes and this university in Boston.

因此，每隔一周，我都会阅读关于《学徒》如何在班级和波士顿这所大学中进行审查和教授的案例研究。

So it was extraordinary.

所以这是非同寻常的。

And this was a real life classroom I was in.

这是我所在的现实生活中的教室。

So I think because of the nature of the show, you learn a lot about teamwork and you’re watching it and analyzing it real time.

所以我认为，由于节目的性质，你可以学到很多关于团队合作的知识，并且你可以实时观看并分析它。

1:30:42 A lot of the tasks were very marketing oriented because of the short duration of time they had to execute.

许多任务都是以营销为导向的，因为它们执行的时间很短。

You learned a lot about time management because of that short duration.

由于持续时间很短，您学到了很多关于时间管理的知识。

So almost every episode would devolve into people hysterical over the fact that they had 10 minutes left with this Herculean lift ahead of them.

因此，几乎每一集都会让人们歇斯底里，因为他们还剩 10 分钟，面前还有这个艰巨的电梯。

So it was a fascinating experience for me.

所以这对我来说是一次令人着迷的经历。

And we would be filming…

我们会拍摄……

I mean, we would film first thing in the morning at 5 or 6 AM in Trump Tower, oftentimes.

我的意思是，我们通常会在凌晨 5 点或 6 点在特朗普大厦拍摄第一件事。

In the lobby of Trump Tower, that’s where the war rooms and boardrooms of the candidates were, the contestants were.

在特朗普大厦的大厅里，那里是候选人、参赛者的作战室和董事会会议室。

And then we would go up in the elevator to our office.

然后我们会乘电梯去我们的办公室。

We would work all day, and then we’d come down and we’d evaluate the task.

我们会工作一整天，然后我们会下来评估任务。

It was this weird real life television thing experience in the middle of our…

这是我们中间的这种奇怪的现实生活电视经历。

Sort of on the bookends of our work day.

有点像我们工作日的书立。

So it was intense.

所以事情很激烈。

So you’re curating the television version of it and also living it?

所以你正在策划它的电视版本并且也在实践它？

Living the…

生活在…

1:31:52 And oftentimes there was an overlay.

而且经常会有重叠。

There were episodes that they came up with brand campaigns for my shoe collection or my clothing line or design challenges related to a hotel I was responsible for building.

有一些情节，他们为我的鞋子系列或我的服装系列提出了品牌活动，或者与我负责建造的酒店相关的设计挑战。

So there was this unbelievable crossover that was obviously great for us from a business perspective, but it’s sometimes surreal to experience.

因此，这种令人难以置信的跨界从商业角度来看显然对我们来说非常好，但有时体验起来却很超现实。

What was it like?

是什么样子的？

1:32:21 Was it scary to be in front of a camera when you kno so many people watch?

当你知道有这么多人观看时，站在镜头前会不会感到害怕？

I mean, that’s a new experience for you at that time.

我的意思是，这对当时的你来说是一种新的体验。

Just the number of people watching.

只是看的人数而已。

Was that weird?

这很奇怪吗？

It was really weird.

真的很奇怪。

1:32:37 I really struggled watching myself on the episodes.

我真的很难在剧集中观看自己。

I still to this day…

我至今仍...

Television as a medium, the fact that we’re taping this, I’m more self-conscious than if we weren’t.

电视作为一种媒介，事实上我们正在录制这个，我比不录制时更加不自在。

I just…

我只是……

It’s-

这是——

Hey, I have to watch myself.

嘿，我得小心点。

1:32:55 After we record this, before I publish it, I have to-

在我们记录下来之后，在我发布它之前，我必须-

1:33:00 To record this before I publish it, I have to listen to my stupid self talk.

为了在发表之前记录下来，我必须听听我愚蠢的自言自语。

So you’re saying it doesn’t get better?

所以你是说情况没有好转？

It doesn’t get better.

情况并没有好转。

I still, I hear myself, I’m like, “Does my voice really sound like that?” Why do I do this thing or that thing?

我仍然，我听到自己，我想，“我的声音听起来真的像那样吗？”我为什么要做这件事或那件事？

1:33:10 And I find it some people are super at ease and who knows, maybe they’re not either.

我发现有些人非常自在，谁知道呢，也许他们也不是。

But some people feel like they’re super at ease.

但有些人却觉得自己超级自在。

Feel like they are, yeah.

感觉他们就是这样，是的。

Like my father was.

就像我父亲一样。

1:33:27 I think who you saw is who you get, and I think that made him so effective in that medium because he was just himself and he was totally unselfconscious.

我认为你看到的就是你得到的，我认为这使得他在这种媒介中如此有效，因为他就是他自己，他完全不自觉。

I was not, I was totally self-conscious.

我不是，我完全有自我意识。

So it was extraordinary, but also a little challenging for me.

所以这很特别，但对我来说也有点挑战。

I think certain people are just born to be entertainers.

我认为某些人天生就是艺人。

1:33:51 Like Elvis on stage, they come to life.

就像舞台上的猫王一样，他们变得栩栩如生。

This is where they’re truly happy.

这才是他们真正快乐的地方。

I’ve met guys like that.

我遇到过这样的人。

Great rock stars.

伟大的摇滚明星。

This is where they feel like they belong, on stages.

这是他们在舞台上感到归属的地方。

It’s not just a thing they do and there’s certain aspects they love, certain aspects they don’t.

这不仅仅是他们做的一件事，而且有他们喜欢的某些方面，也有他们不喜欢的某些方面。

This is where they’re alive.

这就是他们活着的地方。

This is where they’ve always dreamed of being.

这是他们一直梦想的地方。

This is where they want to be forever.

这是他们想要永远待的地方。

Michael Jackson was like that.

迈克尔·杰克逊就是这样的人。

Michael Jackson.

迈克尔·杰克逊。

1:34:20 I saw pictures of you hanging out with Michael Jackson.

我看到你和迈克尔·杰克逊一起出去玩的照片。

That was cool.

太酷了。

He came once to a performance.

他来过一次演出。

1:34:25 At one moment in time I wanted to be a professional ballerina.

有一段时间我想成为一名职业芭蕾舞演员。

Okay, yes.

好吧，是的。

And I was working really hard.

我工作非常努力。

1:34:33 I was going to the School of American Ballet.

我要去美国芭蕾舞学校。

I was dancing at the Lincoln Center in the Nutcracker.

我在林肯中心跳舞《胡桃夹子》。

I was super serious, nine, 10-year-old.

我非常认真，九岁，十岁。

And my parents came to a Christmas performance of the Nutcracker and my father brought Michael Jackson with him.

我的父母来观看胡桃夹子的圣诞表演，我父亲还带来了迈克尔·杰克逊。

And everyone was so excited that all the dancers, they wore one glove.

每个人都非常兴奋，所有舞者都戴着一只手套。

But I remember he was so shy.

但我记得他很害羞。

He was so quiet when you’d see him in smaller group settings.

当你在较小的团体环境中看到他时，他非常安静。

And then you’d watch him walk onto to stage and it was like a completely different person, like the vitality that came into him.

然后你会看到他走上舞台，就像换了一个人，就像他身上充满了活力。

And you say that’s like someone who was born to do what he did.

你说这就像一个生来就要做他所做的事情的人。

And I think there are a lot of performers like that.

我认为这样的表演者有很多。

And I just in general love to see people that have found the thing that makes them come alive.

总的来说，我喜欢看到人们找到了让他们充满活力的东西。

1:35:26 I, as I mentioned, went to the jungle recently with Paul Rosolie, and he’s a guy who just belongs in the jungle.

正如我提到的，我最近和保罗·罗索利一起去了丛林，他是一个属于丛林的人。

That’s a guy where when I got a chance to go with him from the city to the jungle, and you just see this person change, of the happiness, the joy he has when he first is able to jump in the water of Amazon River and to feel like he’s home with the crocodiles, and all that, with his calling friends and probably dances around in the trees with the monkeys.

当我有机会和他一起从城市到丛林时，你会看到这个人的变化，当他第一次能够跳进亚马逊河的水中时，他感到幸福和快乐，感觉就像在家里和鳄鱼在一起，所有这一切，和他呼唤的朋友一起，可能还和猴子在树上跳舞。

So this is where he belongs, and I love seeing that.

所以这就是他所属的地方，我喜欢看到这一点。

You felt that.

你感觉到了。

1:36:13 I mean, I watched the interview you did with him and he felt that his passion and enthusiasm, it radiated.

我的意思是，我看了你对他的采访，他感觉到他的激情和热情正在散发出来。

And I mean, I love animals.

我的意思是，我喜欢动物。

I love all animals.

我爱所有的动物。

Never loved snakes so much.

从来没有这么喜欢过蛇。

And he almost made me, now I appreciate the beauty of them much more than I did prior to listening to him speak about them.

他几乎成就了我，现在我比听他谈论它们之前更加欣赏它们的美丽。

But it’s an infectious thing.

但这是一种具有感染力的事情。

He actually, we were talking about skyscrapers before.

他实际上，我们之前谈论过摩天大楼。

I loved it.

我喜欢它。

He called trees skyscrapers of life, and I thought that was so great.

他称树木为生命的摩天大楼，我认为这太棒了。

Yeah, and they are.

是的，他们确实是。

1:36:48 They’re so big.

它们太大了。

Just like skyscrapers or large buildings, they also represent a history, especially in Europe.

就像摩天大楼或大型建筑一样，它们也代表着一段历史，尤其是在欧洲。

I like to think, looking at all these ancient buildings, you like to think of all the people throughout history that have looked at them, have admired them, have been inspired by them.

我喜欢这样想，看着所有这些古老的建筑，你会想到历史上所有看过它们、钦佩它们、受到它们启发的人。

The great leaders of history.

历史上的伟大领袖。

In France it’s like Napoleon, just the history that’s contained within a building, you almost feel the energy of that history.

在法国，就像拿破仑一样，只要将历史蕴含在一座建筑中，你几乎就能感受到那段历史的能量。

You can feel the stories emanate from the buildings.

你可以感受到这些建筑的故事。

And that same way when you look at giant trees that have been there for decades, for centuries in some cases, you feel the history, the stories emanate.

同样，当你看着已经存在了几十年甚至几个世纪的巨树时，你会感受到历史和故事的散发。

I got a chance to climb some of them, so you feel like there’s a visceral feeling of the power of the trees.

我有机会爬上其中一些树，所以你会感受到树木的力量的发自内心的感觉。

It’s cool.

这很酷。

Yeah.

是的。

1:37:46 That’s an experience I’d love to have, be that disconnected.

这是我很想拥有的体验，与外界隔绝。

Being in the jungle among the trees, among the animals, you remember that you’re forever a part of nature.

置身于丛林之中、树木丛生、动物之中，您会记得自己永远是大自然的一部分。

1:37:47 You’re fundamentally our nature, Earth is a living organism and you’re a part of that organism.

从根本上来说，你就是我们的本质，地球是一个活的有机体，你是该有机体的一部分。

And that’s humbling, that’s beautiful, and you get to experience that in a real, real way.

那是令人谦卑的，那是美丽的，你可以以真实的方式体验到这一点。

It sounds simple to say, but when you actually experience it stays with you for a long time.

说起来很简单，但当你真正体验过之后，它就会伴随你很长时间。

Especially if you’re out there alone.

尤其是当你一个人在外面的时候。

I got a chance to spend time in the jungle solo, just by myself.

我有机会独自一人在丛林中度过时光。

And you sit in the fear of that, in the simplicity of that, all of it, and just no sounds of humans anywhere.

你坐在对这一切的恐惧中，在这一切的简单中，到处都没有人类的声音。

You’re just sitting there and listening to all the monkeys and the birds trying to have sex with each other, all around you just screaming.

你只是坐在那里，听着所有猴子和鸟儿试图互相交配的声音，周围都是尖叫声。

And I mean, I romanticize everything, there’s birds that are monogamous for life, like macaws, you could see two of them flying.

我的意思是，我把一切都浪漫化了，有些鸟是终身一夫一妻制的，比如金刚鹦鹉，你可以看到它们中的两只在飞翔。

They’re also, by the way, screaming at each other.

顺便说一句，他们还互相尖叫。

I always wonder, “Are they arguing or is this their love language?”

我总是想知道，“他们是在吵架还是这是他们的爱情语言？”

That’s very funny.

这很有趣。

You just have these two birds that have been together for a long time and they’re just screaming at each other in the morning.

你只有这两只已经在一起很长时间的鸟，它们只是在早上互相尖叫。

That’s really funny, because there aren’t that many animal species that are monogamous.

这真的很有趣，因为一夫一妻制的动物种类并不多。

1:39:02 And you highlighted one example, but they literally sound like they’re bickering.

你强调了一个例子，但他们听起来确实像是在争吵。

But maybe to them it was beautiful.

但也许对他们来说这很美丽。

1:39:11 I don’t want to judge, but they do sound very loud and very obnoxious.

我不想评判，但它们听起来确实非常响亮而且非常令人讨厌。

But amidst all of that it’s just, I don’t know.

但在这一切之中，我不知道。

I think it’s so humbling to feel so small too.

我觉得感觉自己如此渺小也是一件很令人谦卑的事情。

1:39:22 I feel like when we get busy and when we’re running around, it’s easy to feel we’re so in our head and we feel sort of so consequential in the context of even our own lives.

我觉得当我们变得忙碌和四处奔波时，很容易感觉到我们在自己的头脑中如此重要，甚至在我们自己的生活中也感觉如此重要。

And then you find yourself in a situation like that, and I think you feel so much more connected knowing how minuscule you are in the broader sense.

然后你发现自己处于这样的境地，我认为你会因为知道自己在更广泛的意义上是多么渺小而感觉更加紧密。

And I feel that way when I’m on the ocean on a surfboard.

当我踩着冲浪板在海上冲浪时，我就有这种感觉。

It’s really humbling to be so small amidst that vast sea.

在浩瀚的大海中，自己如此渺小，真是令人感到谦卑。

And it feels really beautiful with no noise, no chatter, no distractions, just being in the moment.

没有噪音，没有闲聊，没有干扰，只是活在当下，感觉真的很美好。

And it sounds like you experienced that in a very, very real way in the Amazon.

听起来你在亚马逊以非常非常真实的方式经历了这一点。

Yeah, the power of the waves is cool.

是的，海浪的力量很酷。

1:40:23 I love swimming out into the ocean and feeling the power of the ocean underneath you, and you’re just like this speck.

我喜欢游进大海，感受脚下海洋的力量，而你就像这个斑点。

And you can’t fight it, right?

而且你无法对抗它，对吗？

Right.

正确的。

You just have to sort of be in it.

你只需要参与其中即可。

1:40:27 And I think in surfing, one of the things I love about it is I feel like a lot of water sports you’re manipulating the environment.

我认为在冲浪中，我喜欢的事情之一是我感觉很多水上运动都在操纵环境。

And there’s something that can be a little violent about it, like you look at windsurfing.

有些事情可能有点暴力，就像你看风帆冲浪一样。

Whereas with surfing, you’re in harmony with it.

而对于冲浪，你却能与之融洽相处。

So you’re not fighting it, you’re flowing with it.

所以你不是在对抗它，而是在顺其自然。

And you still have the agency of choosing which waves you’re going to surf, and you sit there and you read the ocean and you learn to understand it, but you can’t control it.

你仍然可以选择要冲浪的波浪，你坐在那里阅读海洋并学会理解它，但你无法控制它。

What’s it like to fall in your face when you’re trying to surf?

当你尝试冲浪时摔倒在你的脸上是什么感觉？

1:41:05 I haven’t surfed before.

我以前没有冲浪过。

It just feels like I always see videos of when everything goes great.

感觉就像我总是看到一切都很顺利的视频。

I just wonder when it doesn’t.

我只是想知道什么时候没有。

Those are the ones people post.

这些是人们发布的内容。

1:41:18 No, well, I actually had the unique experience of one of my first times surfing.

不，嗯，我实际上有过第一次冲浪的独特经历。

I only learned a couple of years ago, so I’m not good, I just love it.

我几年前才学的，所以我并不擅长，我只是喜欢它。

I love everything about it.

我喜欢它的一切。

I love the physicality, I love being in the ocean, I love everything about it.

我喜欢肉体，我喜欢在海洋中，我喜欢它的一切。

The hardest thing with surfing is paddling out, because when you’re committing, you catch a wave, obviously sometimes you flip over your board and that doesn’t feel great.

冲浪最困难的事情是划桨，因为当你投入时，你会抓住波浪，显然有时你会翻转你的冲浪板，这感觉不太好。

But when you’re in the line of impact and you’ve maybe surfed a good wave in and now you’re going out for another set, and you get stuck in that impact line, there’s nothing you can do.

但是，当你处于冲击线时，你可能已经冲浪了一个很好的波浪，现在你要出去进行另一组，而你被困在冲击线上，你无能为力。

You just sit there and you try to dive underneath it and it will pound you and pound you.

你只要坐在那里，试图潜入它下面，它就会不断地殴打你。

1:42:01 So, I’ve been stuck there while four or five, six waves just crash on top of your head.

所以，我一直被困在那里，而四、五、六波浪潮就在你的头顶上撞击。

And the worst thing you can do is get reactive and scared, and try and fight against it.

你能做的最糟糕的事情就是变得被动和害怕，并试图与之抗争。

You just have to flow with it until inevitably there’s a break and then paddle like hell back out to the line, or to the beach, whatever you’re feeling.

你只需要跟着它流动，直到不可避免地有休息，然后拼命划回线，或者回到海滩，无论你有什么感觉。

But to me that’s the hardest part, the paddling out.

但对我来说，划船是最困难的部分。

How did life change when your father decided to run for president?

当你父亲决定竞选总统时，生活发生了怎样的变化？

Wow, everything changed almost overnight.

哇，几乎一夜之间一切都改变了。

1:42:38 We learned that he was planning to announce his candidacy two weeks before he actually did.

我们了解到，他计划提前两周宣布参选。

And nothing about our lives had been constructed with politics in mind.

我们的生活从来没有考虑过政治。

Most often when people are exposed to politics at that level, that sort of national level, there’s first city council run, and then maybe a state-level run, and maybe, maybe congress, senator ultimately the presidency.

最常见的是，当人们接触那种级别的政治时，那种国家级别的政治，首先是市议会的竞选，然后可能是州级的竞选，也许是国会、参议员，最终是总统职位。

So it was unheard of for him never to have run a campaign and then run for president and win.

因此，他从来没有参加过竞选活动，然后竞选总统并获胜，这是闻所未闻的。

So it was an extraordinary experience.

所以这是一次非凡的经历。

There was so much intensity and so much scrutiny and so much noise.

有如此多的强度、如此多的审查和如此多的噪音。

So that took for sure a moment to acclimate to.

所以这肯定需要一段时间来适应。

I’m not sure I ever fully acclimated, but it definitely was a super unusual experience.

我不确定我是否已经完全适应了，但这绝对是一次非常不寻常的经历。

1:43:56 But I think then the process that unfolded over the next couple of years was also the most extraordinary growth experience of my life.

但我认为接下来几年展开的过程也是我一生中最非凡的成长经历。

Suddenly, I was going into communities that I probably never would have been to, and I was talking with people who in 30 seconds would reveal to me their deepest insecurity, their gravest fear, their wildest ambitions, all of it, with the hope that in telling me that story, it would get back to a potential future President of the United States and have impacts for their family, for their community.

突然，我走进了我可能永远不会去过的社区，与我交谈的人们会在 30 秒内向我透露他们最深的不安全感、他们最严重的恐惧、他们最疯狂的野心，所有这一切，希望在告诉我这个故事时，它会回馈给未来潜在的美国总统，并对他们的家庭和社区产生影响。

1:44:37 So, the level of candor and vulnerability people have with you is unlike anything I’ve ever experienced.

所以，人们对你的坦诚和脆弱程度是我从未经历过的。

And I had done The Apprentice before, people may know who I was in some of these situations that I was going into, but they wouldn’t have shared with me these things that you got the impression that oftentimes their own spouses wouldn’t know, and they wouldn’t do so within 30 seconds.

我以前拍过《学徒》，在我即将遇到的某些情况下，人们可能知道我是谁，但他们不会与我分享这些事情，你给人的印象是他们自己的配偶通常不知道，而且他们不会在 30 秒内这样做。

So you learn so much about what motivates people, what drives people, what their concerns are, and you grow so much as a result of it.

所以你学到了很多关于什么激励人们、什么驱使人们、他们关心什么的知识，你也因此成长了很多。

So when you’re in the White House, people, unlike in any other position, people have a sense that all the troubles they’re going through, maybe you can help, so they put it all out there.

因此，当你在白宫时，人们与其他任何职位不同，他们有一种感觉，他们正在经历的所有麻烦，也许你可以提供帮助，所以他们把一切都摆在那里。

And they do so in such a raw, vulnerable, and real way.

他们以如此原始、脆弱和真实的方式做到这一点。

1:45:31 It’s shocking and eyeopening and super motivating.

这令人震惊、大开眼界、超级激励人心。

I remember once I was in New Hampshire, and early on, right after my father had announced his candidacy, and a man walks up to me in the greeting line and within around five seconds he had started to tell me a story about how his daughter had died of an overdose, and how he was worried his son was also addicted to opioids, his daughter’s friends, his son’s friends.

我记得有一次我在新罕布什尔州，就在我父亲宣布参选后不久，一个男人在问候队列中向我走来，大约五秒钟内，他开始告诉我一个故事，关于他的女儿如何因服药过量而死亡，以及他如何担心他的儿子也对阿片类药物上瘾，他女儿的朋友，他儿子的朋友。

And it’s heartbreaking.

这令人心碎。

It’s heartbreaking, and it’s something that I would experience every day in talking with people.

这是令人心碎的，也是我每天与人交谈时都会经历的事情。

And those stories just stay with you.

这些故事就留在你身边。

Always.

总是。

I took a long road trip around the United States in my 20s, and I’m thinking of doing it again just for a couple of months for that exact purpose.

我在 20 多岁的时候在美国进行了一次长途公路旅行，我正在考虑为了这个确切的目的再次进行几个月的旅行。

1:46:26 And you can get these stories when you go to a bar in the middle of nowhere and just sit and talk to people and they start sharing.

当你去一个偏僻的酒吧，坐下来与人们交谈，他们开始分享时，你就可以得到这些故事。

And it reminds you of how beautiful the country is.

它让你想起这个国家是多么美丽。

It reminds you of several things.

它让你想起几件事。

One, that people, well, it shows you that there’s a lot of different accents, that’s for one.

第一，人们，嗯，它告诉你有很多不同的口音，这是其中之一。

But aside from that, that people are struggling with all the same stuff.

但除此之外，人们还在为同样的事情而苦苦挣扎。

1:47:04 And at least at that time, I wonder what it is now, but at that time, I don’t remember.

至少在那时，我想知道现在是什么，但当时，我不记得了。

On the surface, there’s political divisions, there’s Republicans and Democrats, and so on, but underneath it people were all the same.

表面上有政治分歧，有共和党和民主党等等，但在本质上，人们都是一样的。

The concerns were all the same, there was not that much of a division.

大家的担忧都是一样的，没有太大的分歧。

Right now, the surface division has been amplified even more maybe because of social media, I don’t know why.

现在，表面上的分歧被进一步放大，也许是因为社交媒体，我不知道为什么。

So, I would love to see what the country’s like now.

所以，我很想看看这个国家现在是什么样子。

But I suspect probably it’s still not as divided as it appears to be on the surface, what the media shows, what the social media shows.

但我怀疑它可能仍然不像表面上、媒体所显示的、社交媒体所显示的那样分裂。

But what did you experience in terms of the division?

但你在分裂方面经历了什么？

I think a couple reactions to what you just said.

我认为对你刚才所说的话有一些反应。

1:47:47 I think the first is when you connect with people like that, you are so inspired by their courage in the face of adversity and their resilience.

我认为首先是当你与这样的人联系时，你会被他们面对逆境时的勇气和韧性所鼓舞。

And it’s a truly remarkable experience for me.

这对我来说确实是一次非凡的经历。

The campaign lifted me out of a bubble I didn’t even know I was in.

这次竞选让我摆脱了一个我什至不知道自己身处其中的泡沫。

I grew up on the Upper East Side of New York and I felt like I was well traveled, and I believed at the time that I’d been exposed to divergent viewpoints.

我在纽约上东区长大，我觉得自己游历甚广，当时我相信自己接触到了不同的观点。

And I realized during the campaign how limited my exposure had been relative to what it was becoming, so there was a lot of growth in that as well.

在竞选期间，我意识到我的曝光相对于它的发展是多么有限，所以这方面也有很大的增长。

1:48:39 But I do think you think about the vitriol and politics and whether it’s worse than it’s been in the past or not, I think that’s up for debate.

但我确实认为你会考虑尖酸刻薄和政治，以及它是否比过去更糟糕，我认为这是有争议的。

I think there have been duels, there’s been screaming, and politics has always been a blood sport, and it’s always been incredibly vicious.

我认为有过决斗，有过尖叫，政治一直是一场血腥的运动，而且总是极其恶毒。

I think in the toxic swirl of social media it’s more amplified, and there’s more democratization around participating in it perhaps, and it seems like the voices are louder, but it feels like it’s always been that.

我认为在社交媒体的有毒漩涡中，它被放大了，参与其中的民主化程度可能更高，而且声音似乎更大，但感觉一直都是这样。

But I don’t believe most people are like that.

但我不相信大多数人都是这样的。

And you meet people along the way and they’re not leading with what their politics are.

一路上你会遇到一些人，他们并没有以他们的政治观点来领导。

They’re telling you about their hopes for themselves and their communities.

他们告诉你他们对自己和社区的希望。

And it makes you feel that we are a whole lot less divided than the media and others would have us believe.

这让你觉得我们的分歧比媒体和其他人让我们相信的要少得多。

Although, I have to say, having duals sounds pretty cool.

不过，我不得不说，拥有双打听起来很酷。

1:49:48 Maybe I just romanticize westerns, but anyway.

也许我只是把西部片浪漫化了，但无论如何。

All right, I miss Clint Eastwood movies.

好吧，我想念克林特·伊斯特伍德的电影。

Okay.

好的。

But it’s true.

但这是真的。

You read some of this stuff in terms of what politics used to be in the history of the United States.

你读到的一些内容是关于美国历史上政治的。

Those folks went pretty rough, way rougher, actually.

事实上，那些人非常粗暴，甚至更粗暴。

But they didn’t have social media, so they had to go real hard.

但他们没有社交媒体，所以他们必须非常努力。

And the media was rough too.

媒体也很粗暴。

So all the fake news, all of that, that’s not recent.

所以所有的假新闻，所有这些，都不是最近才发生的。

It’s been nonstop.

一直不间断。

1:50:19 I look at the surface division, the surface bickering, and that might be just a feature of democracy.

我观察表面的分裂、表面的争吵，这可能只是民主的一个特征。

It’s not a bug of democracy, it’s a feature.

这不是民主的缺陷，而是民主的一个特点。

We’re in a constant conflict, and it’s the way we resolve, we try to figure out the right way forward.

我们一直处于冲突之中，这就是我们解决问题的方式，我们试图找出正确的前进方向。

So in the moment, it feels like people are just tearing each other apart, but really we’re trying to find a way, where in the long arc of history it will look like progress.

所以此刻，感觉就像人们在互相撕裂，但实际上我们正在努力寻找一种方法，在历史的长河中看起来像是进步。

But in the short term, it just sounds like people making stories up about other and calling each other names, and all this kind of stuff, but there’s a purpose to it.

但从短期来看，这听起来像是人们编造故事、互相辱骂之类的事情，但这是有目的的。

I mean, that’s what freedom looks like, I guess is what I’m trying to say, and it’s better than the alternative.

我的意思是，这就是自由的样子，我想这就是我想说的，而且它比其他选择更好。

Well, I think that the vast majority of people aren’t participating in it.

嗯，我认为绝大多数人都没有参与其中。

Sure, yes, that’s true also.

当然，是的，这也是事实。

I think there’s a minority of people that are doing most of the yelling and screaming, and the majority of Americans just want to send their kid to a great school, and want their communities to thrive, and want to be able to realize their dreams and aspirations.

我认为只有少数人在大喊大叫，大多数美国人只是想把他们的孩子送到一所好学校，希望他们的社区蓬勃发展，希望能够实现他们的梦想和愿望。

1:51:03 So, I saw a lot more of that than it would feel obvious if you looked at a Twitter feed.

所以，我看到的这些内容比你在 Twitter 上看到的要多得多。

What went into your decision to join the White House as an advisor?

您决定加入白宫担任顾问的原因是什么？

The campaign.

竞选活动。

1:51:43 I never thought about joining, it was like get to the end of it.

我从来没有想过要加入，就好像结束了一样。

And when it started, everything in my life was almost firing on all cylinders.

当它开始时，我生活中的一切几乎都在全速运转。

I had two young kids at home.

我家里有两个年幼的孩子。

During the course of the campaign, I ended up, I was pregnant with my third, so this young family, my businesses, real estate and fashion, and working alongside my brothers running the Trump Hotel collection.

在竞选过程中，我最终怀上了第三个孩子，所以这个年轻的家庭，我的企业，房地产和时尚，并与我的兄弟一起经营特朗普酒店系列。

My life was full and busy.

我的生活充实而忙碌。

And so, there was a big part of me that was just wanted to get through, just get through it, without really thinking forward to what the implications were for me.

所以，我内心的很大一部分只是想度过难关，只是度过难关，而没有真正思考这对我来说意味着什么。

1:52:28 But when my father won, he asked Jared and I to join him.

但当我父亲获胜后，他邀请贾里德和我加入他。

And in asking that question, keep in mind he was just a total outsider, so there was no bench of people as he would have today.

在问这个问题时，请记住他只是一个完全的局外人，所以没有像他今天这样的板凳席。

He had never spent the night in Washington DC before staying in the White House.

在入住白宫之前，他从未在华盛顿特区过夜。

And so, when he asked us to join him, he trusted us.

因此，当他邀请我们加入他时，他信任我们。

He trusted in our ability to execute.

他相信我们的执行能力。

And there wasn’t a part of me that could imagine the 70 or 80-year-old version of myself looking back and having been okay with having said no, and going back to my life as I knew it before.

我无法想象 70 岁或 80 岁的自己回首往事时会坦然拒绝，然后回到我以前所熟悉的生活。

I mean, in retrospect, I realize there is no life as you know it before, but just the idea of not saying yes, wherever that would lead me.

我的意思是，回想起来，我意识到并不存在你以前所知道的生活，只有不说“是”的想法，无论这会带我去哪里。

And so I dove in.

于是我就投入其中。

1:53:29 I was also, during the course of the campaign, I was just much more sensitive to the problems and experiences of Americans.

在竞选过程中，我对美国人的问题和经历也更加敏感。

I gave you an example before of the father in New Hampshire, but even just in my consumption of information.

我之前给你们举过新罕布什尔州父亲的例子，但即使只是在我对信息的消费中。

I had a business that was predominantly young women, many of which were thinking about having a kid, had just had a child, were planning on that life event.

我的企业主要是年轻女性，其中许多人正在考虑要一个孩子，刚刚生了一个孩子，正在计划那个人生大事。

And I knew what they needed to be able to show up every day and realize this dream for themselves and the support structures they would need to have in place.

我知道他们需要什么才能每天出现并为自己实现这个梦想，以及他们需要到位的支持结构。

1:54:11 And I remember reading this article at the time in one of the major newspapers of a woman, she had had a very solid job working at one of the blue chip accounting firms.

我记得当时在一份主要报纸上读到过一篇关于一位女性的文章，她在一家蓝筹会计师事务所有一份非常扎实的工作。

And the recession came, she lost her job around the same time as her partner left her.

经济衰退来了，她失业了，她的伴侣也离开了她。

And over a matter of months, she lost her home.

几个月后，她失去了家。

So, she wound up with her two young kids, after bouncing around between neighbors living in their car.

因此，在住在车里的邻居之间来回穿梭后，她带着两个年幼的孩子结束了生活。

She gets a callback from one of the many interviews she had done for a second interview where she was all but guaranteed the job should that go well, and she had arranged childcare for her two young children with a neighbor in her old apartment block.

她在第二次面试中进行了多次面试，其中一次得到了回电，如果顺利的话，她几乎可以保证这份工作，而且她已经为她的两个年幼的孩子安排了与她旧公寓楼的邻居一起看护的事宜。

1:55:05 And the morning of the interview, she shows up and the neighbor doesn’t answer the doorbell.

采访的那天早上，她出现了，但邻居没有应门铃。

And she stands there five, 10 minutes, doesn’t answer.

她在那里站了五、十分钟，没有回答。

So she has a choice: does she go to the interview with her children, or does she try to cancel?

所以她有一个选择：是带着孩子去面试，还是尝试取消？

She gets in her car, drives to the interview, leaves her two children in the backseat of the car with the window cracked, goes into the interview and gets pulled out of the interview by police because somebody had called the cops after seeing her children in the backseat of the car.

她钻进自己的车，开车去面试，把两个孩子留在车后座，窗户裂开，进入面试，然后被警察从面试中拉出来，因为有人看到她的孩子坐在汽车后座后就报警了。

She gets thrown in jail, her kids get taken from her, and she spends years fighting to regain custody.

她被投入监狱，孩子们被带走，她花了数年时间争取重新获得监护权。

1:55:45 And I think about, that’s an extreme example, but I think about something like that.

我想，这是一个极端的例子，但我也想类似的事情。

And I say, “If I was the mother and we were homeless, would I have gone to that interview?” And I probably would have, and that is not an acceptable situation.

我说：“如果我是母亲，而我们无家可归，我会去参加那个采访吗？”我可能会这样做，但这不是一个可接受的情况。

So you hear stories like that, and then you get asked, “Will you come with me?” And it’s really hard to say no.

所以你听到这样的故事，然后你会被问：“你愿意跟我一起去吗？”真的很难说不。

I spent four years in Washington.

我在华盛顿呆了四年。

I feel like I left it all in the field.

我感觉我把一切都留在了田野里。

I feel really good about it, and I feel really privileged to have been able to do what I did.

我对此感觉非常好，并且我对能够做我所做的事情感到非常荣幸。

A chance to help many people.

有机会帮助很多人。

1:56:30 Saying no means you’re turning away from those people.

说“不”意味着你正在远离那些人。

It felt like that to me.

对我来说就是这样的感觉。

Yeah.

是的。

1:56:44 But then it’s the turmoil of politics that you’re getting into, and it really is a leap into the abyss.

但接下来你就会陷入政治的混乱，这确实是跳入深渊。

1:56:54 What was it like trying to get stuff done in Washington in this place where politics is a game?

在华盛顿这个政治就是游戏的地方，试图完成工作是什么感觉？

It feels that way maybe from an outsider perspective.

或许从外人的角度来看，是这样的感觉。

And you go in there trying, given some of those stories, trying to help people.

鉴于其中一些故事，你会去尝试帮助人们。

What’s it like to get anything done?

完成一件事是什么感觉？

It’s an incredible cognitive lift …

这是令人难以置信的认知提升……

That’s a nice way to put it.

这是一个很好的表达方式。

…

……

1:57:21 to get things done.

把事情做好。

There are a lot of people who would prefer to clinging to the problem and their talking points about how they’re going to solve it, rather than sort of roll up their sleeves and do the work it takes to build coalitions of support, and find people who are willing to compromise and move the ball.

有很多人宁愿坚持问题和他们将如何解决问题的谈话要点，而不是卷起袖子做必要的工作来建立支持联盟，并找到愿意妥协和推动事情的人。

And so it’s extremely difficult.

所以这是非常困难的。

And Jared and I talk about it all the time, it probably should be, because these are highly consequential policies that impact people’s lives at scale.

贾里德和我一直在谈论它，这可能是应该的，因为这些是大规模影响人们生活的非常重要的政策。

It shouldn’t be so easy to do them, and they are doable, but it’s challenging.

做到这些不应该那么容易，而且它们是可行的，但具有挑战性。

1:58:02 One of the first experiences I had where it really was just a full grind effort was with tax cuts and the work I did to get the child tax credit doubled as part of it.

我第一次经历的其中一个真正需要全力以赴的经历是减税，以及我为使儿童税收抵免加倍所做的工作，作为其中的一部分。

And it just meant meeting, after meeting, after meeting, after meeting with lawmakers, convincing them of why this is good policy, going into their districts, campaigning in their districts, helping them convince their constituents of why it’s important, of why childcare support is important, of why paid family leave is important, of different policies that impact working American families.

这只是意味着与立法者会面、会面、会面、会面之后，让他们相信为什么这是一个好政策，进入他们的选区，在他们的选区开展竞选活动，帮助他们说服选民，让他们相信为什么这很重要，为什么育儿支持很重要，为什么带薪家庭假很重要，以及影响美国工薪家庭的不同政策。

So it’s hard, but it’s really rewarding.

所以虽然很难，但也确实很有收获。

1:58:48 And then to get it done, I mean, just the child tax credit alone, 40 million American families got an average of $2,200 each year as a result of the doubling of the child tax credits.

然后为了实现这一目标，我的意思是，仅儿童税收抵免一项，由于儿童税收抵免翻倍，4000万美国家庭每年平均获得2,200美元。

That was one component of tax cuts.

这是减税的组成部分之一。

When I was researching this stuff, you just get to think the scale of things.

当我研究这些东西时，你只需考虑事物的规模。

1:59:05 The scale of impact is 40 million families, each one of those is a story, is a story of struggle, of trying to give a large part of your life to a job while still being able to give love and support and care to a family, to kids, and to manage all of that.

影响范围是 4000 万个家庭，每个家庭都是一个故事，一个奋斗的故事，一个努力将生命的大部分时间奉献给工作的故事，同时仍然能够向家庭、孩子提供爱、支持和关怀，并管理这一切。

Each one of those is a little puzzle that they have to solve.

每一个都是他们必须解决的一个小难题。

And it’s a life and death puzzle.

这是一个生死之谜。

You can lose your home, your security, you can lose your job, you can screw stuff up with parenting, so you can mess all of that up and you’re trying to hold it together, and government policies can help make that easier, or can in some cases make that possible.

你可能会失去你的家、你的安全感、你可能会失去你的工作、你可能会搞砸养育孩子，所以你可能会搞砸所有这一切，而你却试图把它维系在一起，而政府政策可以帮助让这一切变得更容易，或者在某些情况下可以使这成为可能。

And you get to do that a scale out of five or 10 families, but 40 million families.

你可以在 5 到 10 个家庭（4000 万个家庭）中做到这一点。

And that’s just one thing.

这只是一件事。

Yeah.

是的。

2:00:01 The people who shared with me their experience, and during the campaign it was what they hoped to see happen.

那些与我分享他们的经历的人，在竞选期间这是他们希望看到的事情发生。

Once you were in there, it was what they were seeing, what they were experiencing, the result of the policies.

一旦你到了那里，这就是他们所看到的、他们正在经历的、政策的结果。

And that was the fuel.

这就是燃料。

On the hardest days, that was the fuel.

在最困难的日子里，这就是燃料。

Child tax credit.

儿童税收抵免。

2:00:24 I remember visiting with a woman, Brittany Houseman, she came to the White House.

我记得拜访过一位女士，布列塔尼·豪斯曼，她来到了白宫。

She had two small children, she was pregnant with her third.

她有两个孩子，现在还怀着第三个孩子。

Her husband was killed in a car accident.

她的丈夫在一场车祸中丧生。

She was in school at the time.

当时她正在上学。

Her dream was to become criminal justice advocate.

她的梦想是成为刑事司法倡导者。

That was no longer on the table for her after he passed away and she became the sole earner and provider for her family.

他去世后，她就不再考虑这个问题了，她成了家里唯一的经济来源和养家糊口的人。

And she couldn’t afford childcare, she couldn’t afford to stay in school, so she ended up creating a child childcare center in her home.

她无力承担托儿费用，也无力继续上学，所以她最终在家里创建了一个托儿中心。

2:00:57 And her center was so successful because in part of different policies we worked on, including the childcare block grants that went to the state.

她的中心之所以如此成功，是因为我们制定了不同的政策，包括向州政府提供的儿童保育整笔拨款。

She ended up opening additional centers, I visited her at one of them in Colorado.

她最终开设了更多的中心，我在科罗拉多州的其中一个中心拜访了她。

Now she has a huge focus on helping teenage moms who don’t have the resources to afford quality childcare for their kids come into her centers and programs.

现在，她非常注重帮助那些没有资源为孩子提供优质托儿服务的青少年妈妈进入她的中心和项目。

And it’s stories like that of the hardships people face, but also what they do with opportunity when they’re given it, that really powers you through tough moments when you’re in Washington.

这些故事讲述了人们面临的困难，以及他们如何利用机会，当你在华盛顿度过艰难时刻时，这些故事确实会给你带来力量。

What can you say about the process of bringing that to life?

对于将其变为现实的过程您有什么想说的吗？

2:01:38 So, the child tax credits, so doubling them from a $1,000, $2,000 per child, what are the challenges of that?

那么，儿童税收抵免，从每个孩子 1,000 美元到 2,000 美元加倍，这会带来哪些挑战？

Getting people to compromise?

让人们妥协？

I’m sure there’s a lot of politicians playing games with that because maybe it’s a Republican that came up with an idea or a Democrat that came up with an idea, and so they don’t want to give credit to the idea.

我确信有很多政客在玩弄这个想法，因为也许是共和党提出了一个想法，或者是民主党提出了一个想法，所以他们不想相信这个想法。

And there’s probably all kinds of games happening where when the game is happening, you probably forget about the families.

可能会发生各种各样的游戏，当游戏发生时，你可能会忘记家庭。

Each politician thinks about how they can benefit themselves, if you get the serving part of the role you’re supposed to be in.

每个政治家都会思考，如果你得到了你应该扮演的角色的服务部分，他们如何才能使自己受益。

There were definitely people I met with in Washington who I felt that was true of.

我在华盛顿遇到的一些人确实是这样的。

2:02:19 But they all go back to their districts and I assume that they all have similar experiences to what I had, where people share their stories.

但他们都回到了自己的地区，我认为他们都有与我相似的经历，人们分享他们的故事。

So there’d be something really cynical about thinking they forget, but some do.

因此，认为他们忘记了确实有些愤世嫉俗，但有些人确实忘记了。

You helped get people together.

你帮助人们聚集在一起。

2:02:37 What’s that take?

那是什么？

Trying to people to compromise, trying to get people to see the common humanity?

试图让人们妥协，试图让人们看到共同的人性？

Well, I think first and foremost, you have to be willing to talk with them.

嗯，我认为首先也是最重要的，你必须愿意与他们交谈。

2:02:44 So, one of the policies I advocated for was paid family leave.

因此，我倡导的政策之一是带薪家庭假。

We left, and nine million more Americans had it through a combination of securing it for our federal workforce.

我们离开了，通过为我们的联邦劳动力确保这一权利的结合，又有九百万美国人获得了它。

I had people in the White House who were pregnant who didn’t have access to paid leave.

我在白宫里有些怀孕的人无法享受带薪休假。

So, we want to keep people attached to the workforce, yet when they have an important life event like a child, we create an impossibility for that.

因此，我们希望让人们保持对劳动力的依恋，但当他们有像孩子这样的重要生活事件时，我们就创造了一种不可能。

Some people don’t even have access to unpaid leave if they’re part-time workers.

有些人如果是兼职工人，甚至无法享受无薪休假。

2:03:20 And so that, and then we also put in place the first ever national tax credit for workers making under $72,000 a year where employers could then offer it to their workers.

因此，我们还为年收入低于 72,000 美元的工人实施了有史以来第一个国家税收抵免，雇主可以向他们的工人提供税收抵免。

That was also part of tax cuts.

这也是减税的一部分。

So part of it is really taking the arguments as to why this is good, smart, well-designed policy to people.

因此，其中一部分是真正讨论为什么这对人们来说是一个好的、明智的、精心设计的政策。

And it was one of my big surprises that on certain policy issues that I thought would have been well socialized, the policies that existed were never shared across the aisle.

让我大吃一惊的是，在某些我认为应该充分社会化的政策问题上，现有的政策从未在两党之间共享。

So people just lived with them maybe in hopes that one day …

所以人们只是和他们住在一起，也许希望有一天……

2:04:00 …

……

so people just lived with them maybe in hopes that one day they would have the votes to get exactly what they want.

所以人们只是和他们住在一起，也许希望有一天他们能得到选票来得到他们想要的东西。

But I was surprised by how little discussion there was.

但令我惊讶的是，讨论如此之少。

2:04:10 So I think part of it is be willing to have those tough discussions with people who may not share your viewpoint and be an active listener when they point out flaws and they have suggestions for changes, not believing that you have a monopoly on good ideas.

所以我认为部分原因是愿意与那些可能不同意你观点的人进行艰难的讨论，并在他们指出缺陷和提出改变建议时成为积极的倾听者，而不是相信你垄断了好想法。

And I think there has to be a lot of humility in architecting these things.

我认为在构建这些东西时必须非常谦虚。

And a policy should benefit from that type of well-rounded input.

政策应该受益于这种全面的投入。

Yeah.

是的。

2:04:42 Be able to see, like you said, well-designed policies.

正如你所说，能够看到精心设计的政策。

There’s probably the details are important too.

也许细节也很重要。

Just like with architecture and you walk the rooms, there’s probably really good designs of policies, economic policy that helps families that delivers the maximum amount of money or resources to families that need it and is not a waste of money.

就像建筑和你在房间里走动一样，可能有非常好的政策设计，经济政策可以帮助家庭，为有需要的家庭提供最大数量的金钱或资源，而不是浪费金钱。

So there’s probably really nice designs there and nice ideas that are bipartisan that has nothing to do with politics, has to do with just great economic policy, just great policies.

因此，那里可能有非常好的设计和两党共同的好想法，与政治无关，只与伟大的经济政策有关，只是伟大的政策。

And that requires listening.

这需要倾听。

Requires trust, too.

也需要信任。

Trust.

相信。

I learned tax cuts was really interesting for me because I met with so many people across the political spectrum on advancing that policy.

我了解到减税对我来说真的很有趣，因为我会见了很多不同政治派别的人来推动这项政策。

2:05:22 I really figured out who was willing to deviate from their talking points when the door was closed and who wasn’t.

我真的弄清楚了当门关闭时谁愿意偏离他们的谈话要点，谁不愿意。

And it takes some courage to do that, especially without surety that it would actually get done, especially if they’ve campaigned on something that was slightly different.

这样做需要一些勇气，尤其是在不确定是否真的会完成的情况下，尤其是如果他们的竞选活动略有不同。

And not everyone has that courage.

而且并不是每个人都有这个勇气。

So through tax cuts, I learned the people who did have that courage and I went back to that, well time and time again on policies that I thought were important, some were bipartisan.

因此，通过减税，我了解了那些确实有勇气的人，然后我一次又一次地讨论我认为重要的政策，其中一些是两党合作的。

The Great American Outdoors Act is something, it’s incredible policy.

《伟大的美国户外活动法案》是一项伟大的政策，是一项令人难以置信的政策。

I love that one.

我喜欢那个。

Yeah, it’s amazing.

是的，太棒了。

2:06:16 It’s one of the largest pieces of conservation legislation since the National Park system was created.

这是自国家公园系统创建以来最大的保护立法之一。

And over 300 million people visit our national parks, the vast majority of them being Americans every year.

每年有超过 3 亿人参观我们的国家公园，其中绝大多数是美国人。

So this is something that is real and beneficial for people’s lives, getting rid of the deferred maintenance, permanently funding them.

所以这是真实的、对人们的生活有益的事情，摆脱了延期的维护，永久地为他们提供资金。

But there are other issues like that that just weren’t being prioritized.

但还有其他类似的问题没有被优先考虑。

2:06:45 Modernizing Perkins CTE in vocational education.

职业教育领域 Perkins CTE 的现代化。

And it’s something I became super passionate about and help lead the charge on.

这是我变得非常热衷并帮助领导的事情。

I think in America for a really long period of time, we’ve really believed that education stops when you leave high school or college.

我认为在美国很长一段时间里，我们真的相信当你离开高中或大学时，教育就停止了。

And that is not true and that’s a dangerous way to think.

但这是不正确的，这是一种危险的思维方式。

So how can we both galvanize the private sector to ensure that they continue to train workers for the jobs they know are coming and how they train their existing workforce into the new jobs with robotics or machinery or new technologies that are coming down the pike.

那么，我们如何才能激励私营部门，确保他们继续为他们知道即将到来的工作培训工人，以及如何利用机器人、机械或即将出现的新技术培训现有劳动力适应新工作。

So galvanizing the private sector to join us in that effort.

因此，激励私营部门加入我们的努力。

2:07:32 So whether it’s the legislative side, like the actual legislation of Perkins CTE, which was focused on vocational education or whether it’s the ability to use the White House to galvanize the private sector, we got over 16 million commitments from the private sector to retrain or re-skill workers into the jobs of tomorrow.

因此，无论是立法方面，比如 Perkins CTE 的实际立法，重点是职业教育，还是利用白宫激励私营部门的能力，我们都从私营部门获得了超过 1600 万份承诺，对工人进行再培训或重新培训，以适应未来的工作。

Yeah, there’s so many aspects of education that you helped on, access to STEM and computer science education.

是的，您在教育的很多方面都提供了帮助，包括获得 STEM 和计算机科学教育。

2:07:56 So the CTE thing, you’re mentioning modernizing career and technical education.

关于 CTE，您提到的是现代化职业和技术教育。

And that’s millions, millions of people.

那是数百万人。

The act provided nearly $1.3 billion annually to more than 13 million students to better align the employer needs and all that kind of stuff.

该法案每年向超过 1300 万学生提供近 13 亿美元，以更好地满足雇主的需求和所有此类需求。

Very large scale policies that help a lot of people.

非常大规模的政策可以帮助很多人。

It’s fascinating.

这很有趣。

Education often isn’t like the bright shiny object everyone’s running towards.

教育往往不像每个人都追求的闪亮目标。

2:08:22 So one of the hard things in politics, when there’s something that is good policy, sometimes it has no momentum because it doesn’t have a cheerleader.

因此，政治中最困难的事情之一是，当有一些好的政策时，有时它会失去动力，因为它没有啦啦队长。

So where are areas of good policy that you can literally just carry across the finish line?

那么，哪些领域的良好政策是你可以真正完成的呢？

Because people tend to run towards what’s the news of the day to try to address whatever issue is being talked about on the front pages of papers.

因为人们倾向于关注当天的新闻，试图解决报纸头版上正在讨论的任何问题。

And there’s so many issues that need to be addressed, and education is one of them that’s just under-prioritized.

有很多问题需要解决，而教育就是其中一个没有被优先考虑的问题。

2:09:03 Human trafficking.

人口贩卖。

That’s an issue that I didn’t go to the White House thinking I would work on, but you hear a story of a survivor and you can’t not want to eradicate one of the greatest evils that the mind can even imagine.

我去白宫并没有想过要解决这个问题，但当你听到一个幸存者的故事时，你不可能不想根除人类所能想象到的最大邪恶之一。

The trafficking of people, the exploitation of children.

贩卖人口、剥削儿童。

And I think for so many they assume that this is a problem that doesn’t happen on our shores.

我认为对于很多人来说，他们认为这是一个不会发生在我们海岸的问题。

It’s something that you may experience at far-flung destinations across the world, but it’s happening there and it’s happening here as well.

您可能会在世界各地遥远的目的地经历这种事情，但它正在那里发生，也正在这里发生。

2:09:40 And so through a coalition of people that on both sides of the aisle that I came to trust and to work well with, we were able to get legislation which the president signed, passed nine pieces of legislation, combating trafficking at home and abroad and digital exploitation of children.

因此，通过我信任并与之良好合作的两党人士联盟，我们得以获得总统签署的立法，通过了九项立法，打击国内外人口贩运和对儿童的数字剥削。

How much of a toll does that take seeing all the problems in the world at such a large scale, the immensity of it all?

以如此大的规模、如此巨大的规模看待世界上的所有问题，需要付出多大的代价？

2:10:03 Was that hard to walk around with that just knowing how much suffering there is in the world?

仅仅知道世界上有多少苦难，就很难忍受吗？

As you’re trying to help all of it, as you’re trying to design government policies to help all of that, it’s also a very visceral recognition that there is suffering in the world.

当你试图帮助这一切时，当你试图设计政府政策来帮助这一切时，这也是一种发自内心的认识，即世界上存在苦难。

How difficult is that to walk around with?

带着它到处走走有多困难？

You feel it intensely.

你会强烈地感受到它。

2:10:31 We were just talking about human trafficking.

我们刚才谈论的是人口贩卖问题。

I mean you don’t design these policies in the absence of the input of survivors themselves.

我的意思是，在没有幸存者本身参与的情况下，你不会设计这些政策。

You hear their stories.

你听到他们的故事。

I remember a woman who was really influential in my thinking, Andrea Hipwell who she was in college where she was lured out by a guy she thought was a good guy, started dating him.

我记得一位对我的思想非常有影响力的女人，安德里亚·希普韦尔（Andrea Hipwell），她在大学时被一个她认为是好人的男人引诱，开始和他约会。

He gets her hooked on drugs, convinces her to drop out of college and spends the next five years selling her.

他让她迷上了毒品，说服她从大学退学，并在接下来的五年里卖掉了她。

She only got out when she was arrested.

她被捕后才出来。

And all too often that’s happening too, that the victim’s being targeted, not the perpetrator.

而且这种情况也经常发生，受害者成为目标，而不是肇事者。

2:11:17 So we did a lot with DOJ around changing that, but now she’s helping other survivors get skills and job training and the therapeutic interventions they need.

因此，我们与司法部一起做了很多事情来改变这一点，但现在她正在帮助其他幸存者获得技能和职业培训以及他们所需的治疗干预措施。

But you speak with people like Andrea and so many others, and I mean you can’t not, your heart gets seized by it and it’s both, it’s motivating and it’s hard.

但是当你和像安德里亚这样的人以及其他很多人交谈时，我的意思是你不能不这样做，你的心会被它抓住，两者兼而有之，它既激励人心，又很难。

It’s really hard.

这真的很难。

I was just talking to a brain surgeon.

我刚刚在和一位脑外科医生交谈。

2:11:47 Many of the surgeries he to do, he knows the chances are very low of success and he says that that wears his armor.

他知道他要做的许多手术成功的机会非常低，他说这就是他的盔甲。

It chips away.

它逐渐消失。

It’s like only so many times can you do that.

好像你只能做这么多次。

And thank God he is doing it because I bet you there are a lot of others that don’t choose that particular field because of those low success rates.

感谢上帝，他正在这样做，因为我敢打赌，还有很多其他人因为成功率低而没有选择该特定领域。

But you could see the pain in his eyes, maintaining your humanity while doing all of it.

但你可以看到他眼中的痛苦，在做这一切的同时保持着人性。

2:12:11 You could see the story, you could see the family that loves that person.

你可以看到这个故事，你可以看到爱那个人的家人。

You feel the immensity of that, and you feel the heartbreak involved with mortality in that case and with suffering also in that case, and in general in all these in human trafficking.

你会感受到其中的巨大性，你会感受到与死亡有关的心碎，以及在这种情况下的痛苦，以及在所有这些人口贩运中的普遍情况。

But even helping families try to stay afloat, trying to break out or escape poverty, all of that, you get to see those stories of struggle.

但即使是帮助家庭维持生计，试图摆脱贫困，所有这些，你也能看到那些奋斗的故事。

It’s not easy.

这并不容易。

2:12:51 But the people that really feel the humanity of that, feel the pain of that are probably the right people to be politicians.

但真正感受到其中的人性、感受到其中的痛苦的人可能是成为政治家的合适人选。

But it’s probably also why you can’t stay in there too long.

但这可能也是你不能在那里呆太久的原因。

It’s the only time in my life where you actually feel like there’s always a conflict, between work and life and making sure, as a woman, I’d often get asked about how do you balance work and family?

这是我一生中唯一一次真正感觉到工作和生活之间总是存在冲突，并且确保作为一名女性，我经常被问到你如何平衡工作和家庭？

2:13:01 And I never liked that question because balance, it’s elusive.

我从来不喜欢这个问题，因为平衡是难以捉摸的。

You’re one fever away from no balance.

你差一点就失去平衡了。

Your child’s sick one day.

有一天你的孩子生病了。

What do you do?

你做什么工作？

There goes balance.

平衡就消失了。

Or you have a huge project with a deadline.

或者您有一个有截止日期的大型项目。

There goes balance.

平衡就消失了。

2:13:40 I think a better way to frame it is, am I living in accordance with my priorities?

我认为更好的框架方式是，我是否按照自己的优先顺序生活？

Maybe not every day, but every week, every month.

也许不是每天，而是每周、每月。

And reflecting on have you architected a life that aligns with your priorities so that more often than not you’re where you need to be in that moment.

反思一下你是否设计了一种与你的优先事项相一致的生活，这样你往往就能在那一刻到达你需要的地方。

And service at that level was the one time where you really you feel incredibly conflicted about having any priorities other than serving.

在那个级别的服务中，你真的会感到非常矛盾，除了服务之外还有其他优先事项。

It’s finite.

这是有限的。

2:14:13 In every business I’ve built, you’re building for duration.

在我建立的每一项业务中，你都是为了持续时间而建立的。

And then you go into the White House and it is sand through an hourglass.

然后你走进白宫，看到的是沙漏中的沙子。

Whether it’s four years or eight years, it’s a finite period of time you have.

无论是四年还是八年，这都是有限的时间。

And most people don’t last four years.

大多数人都坚持不了四年。

I think the average in the White House is 18 months.

我认为白宫的平均任期是 18 个月。

It’s exhausting.

这很累。

But it’s the only time when you’re at home with your own children that you feel, you think about all the people you’ve met and you feel guilty about any time that’s spent not advancing those interests to the best of your capacity.

但这是唯一一次当你在家和自己的孩子在一起时，你会感到，你会想到你所遇到的所有人，并且你会对没有尽你所能地促进这些兴趣的任何时间感到内疚。

2:14:51 And that’s a hard thing.

这是一件很难的事情。

That’s a really hard feeling as a parent.

作为父母，这种感觉真的很难受。

And it’s really challenging then to be present, to always need to answer your phone, to always need to be available.

然后，要在场、总是需要接听电话、总是需要随时待命，这真的很有挑战性。

It’s very difficult, it’s taxing, but it’s also the greatest privilege in the world.

这非常困难，很费力，但这也是世界上最大的特权。

So through that, the turmoil of that, the hardship of that, what was the role of family through all of that, Jared and the kids?

那么，经历了这一切，经历了那段混乱，经历了那段艰难，贾里德和孩子们，家庭在这一切中扮演了什么角色？

2:15:12 What was that like?

那是什么样子的？

That was everything.

这就是一切。

2:15:20 To have that, to have the support systems I had in place with my husband and we had left New York and wound up in Washington.

为了拥有这个，为了拥有我和我丈夫的支持系统，我们离开了纽约，最后来到了华盛顿。

And New York, I lived 10 blocks away from my mother-in-law who if I wasn’t taking my kids to school, she was.

在纽约，我住在离我婆婆十个街区的地方，如果我不送孩子上学，她就会送我婆婆。

So we lost some of that, which was very hard.

所以我们失去了一些，这非常困难。

But we had what mattered, which was each other.

但我们拥有重要的东西，那就是彼此。

And my kids were young.

我的孩子们还很小。

When I got to Washington, Theo, my youngest was eight months old, and Arabella, my oldest, my daughter was five years old.

当我到达华盛顿时，我最小的孩子西奥八个月大，我最大的女儿阿拉贝拉五岁。

So they were still quite young.

所以他们还很年轻。

We have a son, Joseph, who’s three.

我们有一个儿子约瑟夫，他三岁了。

And I think for me, the dose of levity coming home at night and having them there and just joyful and it was super grounding and important for me.

我认为对我来说，晚上回家并让他们在那里感到轻松，这对我来说是非常基础和重要的。

2:16:24 I still remember Theo when he was around three, three and a half years old.

我仍然记得西奥三岁、三岁半左右的时候。

Jared used to make me coffee every morning and it was like my great luxury that I would sit there.

贾里德每天早上都会给我泡咖啡，我坐在那里就像是一种极大的奢侈。

He still makes it for me every morning.

他仍然每天早上为我做。

I told him, I’m never, even though I secretly know how to actually work the coffee machine, but I’ve convinced him that I have no idea how to work the coffee machine.

我告诉他，我从来没有，尽管我私下知道如何实际操作咖啡机，但我已经让他相信我不知道如何操作咖啡机。

Now I’m going to be busted, but it’s a skill I don’t want to learn because it’s one of his acts of love.

现在我要被抓了，但这是一项我不想学习的技能，因为这是他的爱的行为之一。

He brings me coffee every morning in bed while I read the newspapers.

每天早上我在床上看报纸时，他都会给我端来咖啡。

2:16:57 And Theo would watch this.

西奥会看这个。

And so he got Jared to teach him how to make coffee.

所以他让贾里德教他如何煮咖啡。

And Theo learned how to make a full-blown cappuccino.

西奥学会了如何制作一杯成熟的卡布奇诺。

Nice.

好的。

And he had so much joy and every morning bringing me this cappuccino, and I remember the sound of his little steps, like the slide.

他非常高兴，每天早上都会给我端来这杯卡布奇诺，我记得他的小脚步声，就像滑梯一样。

2:17:05 It was so cute coming down the hallway with my perfectly foamed cappuccino.

端着泡沫完美的卡布奇诺从走廊走下来真是太可爱了。

Now I try to get him to make me coffee and he’s like, “Come on mom.” It was a moment in time, but we had a lot of little moments like that that were just amazing.

现在我试着让他给我煮咖啡，他说：“来吧，妈妈。”那是一个及时的时刻，但我们有很多这样的小时刻，真是太棒了。

Yeah, I got a chance to chat with him and he has …

是的，我有机会和他聊天，他……

2:17:38 his silliness and sense of humor, yeah, it’s really joyful.

他的愚蠢和幽默感，是的，这真的很令人高兴。

I could see how that could be an escape from the madness of Washington, of the adult life, the “adult life”.

我可以看到这如何可以逃避华盛顿的疯狂，逃避成人生活，“成人生活”。

And they were young enough.

而且他们还足够年轻。

2:17:53 We really kept our home life pretty sheltered from everything else.

我们确实让我们的家庭生活远离了其他一切。

And we were able to do so because they were so young and because they weren’t connected to the internet.

我们之所以能够做到这一点，是因为他们还很年轻，而且还没有连接到互联网。

They were too young for smartphones, all of these things.

他们还太年轻，不适合智能手机等所有这些东西。

We were able to shelter and protect them and allow them to have as normal as upbringing as was possible in the context we were living.

我们能够庇护和保护他们，让他们在我们生活的环境中尽可能正常地成长。

And they brought me and continue to bring me so much, so much joy.

他们给我带来了并将继续给我带来如此多的快乐。

But they were, I mean, without Jared and without the kids, it would’ve been much more lonely.

但我的意思是，如果没有贾里德和孩子们，他们会更加孤独。

So three kids.

那么三个孩子。

2:18:30 You’ve now upgraded, two dogs and a hamster.

你现在已经升级了，两只狗和一只仓鼠。

Well, our second dog, we rescued him thinking, we thought he was probably part German Shepherd, part lab is what we were told.

好吧，我们的第二只狗，我们救了他，我们认为他可能是德国牧羊犬的一部分，我们被告知是实验室的。

2:18:36 He’s now, I don’t even know if he qualifies as a dog.

他现在，我什至不知道他是否有资格当狗。

He’s like the size of a horse, a small horse.

他就像一匹马那么大，一匹小马。

Yeah, basically a horse, yeah.

是的，基本上是一匹马，是的。

Simba.

辛巴。

2:18:52 So I don’t think he has much lab in him.

所以我认为他没有太多实验室。

I think Joseph has not wanted to do a DNA test because he really wanted a German Shepherd.

我认为约瑟夫不想做 DNA 测试，因为他真的想要一只德国牧羊犬。

So he’s a German Shepherd.

所以他是一只德国牧羊犬。

He’s gigantic.

他是巨大的。

He’s gigantic.

他是巨大的。

2:19:06 And we also have a hamster who’s the newest addition because my son, Theo, he tried to get a dog as well.

我们还有一只仓鼠，它是最新加入的，因为我的儿子西奥也想养一只狗。

Our first dog Winter became my daughter’s dog as she wouldn’t let her brothers play with him or sleep with him and was old enough to bully them into submission.

我们的第一只狗温特成了我女儿的狗，因为她不让她的兄弟和他一起玩或和他一起睡觉，而且她已经长大了，可以欺负他们屈服。

So then Joseph wanted a dog and got Simba.

于是约瑟夫想要一只狗，于是就得到了辛巴。

Theo now wants the dog and has Buster the hamster in the interim.

西奥现在想要这只狗，并在此期间养了仓鼠巴斯特。

So we’ll see.

所以我们拭目以待。

What advice would you give to other mothers just planning on having kids and maybe advice to yourself on how to continue figuring out this puzzle?

您会给其他正计划生孩子的母亲什么建议，也许也会给您自己如何继续解决这个难题的建议？

I think being a parent, you have to cultivate within yourself, like hide in levels of empathy.

我认为作为父母，你必须培养自己的内心，比如隐藏在同理心的水平中。

2:19:44 You have to really look at each child and see them for who they are, what they enjoy, what they love, and meet them where they’re at.

你必须真正观察每个孩子，了解他们是谁，他们喜欢什么，他们喜欢什么，并在他们所处的位置满足他们。

I think that can be enormously challenging when your kids are so different in temperament.

我认为当你的孩子的气质如此不同时，这可能是一个巨大的挑战。

As they get older, that difference in temperament may be within the same child, depending on the moment of the day, but it really, I think it’s actually made me a much softer person, a much better listener.

随着年龄的增长，这种气质上的差异可能会出现在同一个孩子身上，这取决于一天中的不同时刻，但我认为这实际上让我成为一个更加柔和的人，一个更好的倾听者。

I think I see people more truly for who they are as opposed to how I want them to be sometimes.

我认为我更真实地看到人们的本来面目，而不是有时我希望他们成为的样子。

And I think being a parent to three children who are all exceptional and all incredibly different has enabled that in me.

我认为，作为三个孩子的父母，他们都很出色，而且都非常不同，这使我能够做到这一点。

2:20:45 I think for me though, they’ve also been some of my greatest teachers in that we were talking about the presence you felt when you were in the jungle and the connectivity you felt and sort of the simple joy.

但我认为对我来说，他们也是我最伟大的老师，因为我们谈论了你在丛林中感受到的存在感、你感受到的连通性以及某种简单的快乐。

And I think for us as we grow older, we kind of disconnect from that.

我认为，随着年龄的增长，我们会逐渐脱离这一点。

My kids have taught me how to play again.

我的孩子们再次教我如何玩耍。

And that’s beautiful.

那很漂亮。

I remember just a couple of weeks ago we had one of these crazy Miami torrential downpours and Arabella comes down, it’s around eight o’clock at night, it’s really raining.

我记得几周前，迈阿密下了一场疯狂的倾盆大雨，阿拉贝拉倾盆大雨倾盆而下，当时是晚上八点左右，雨下得很大。

And she’s got rain boots and pajama pants on, and she’s going to take the dogs for a walk in the rain, which she had all day to walk, but she wasn’t doing it because they needed to go for a walk.

她穿着雨鞋和睡裤，她要带着狗在雨中散步，她本来有一整天的时间要散步，但她没有这么做，因为它们需要散步。

She was like, “This would be fun.”

她说：“这会很有趣。”

2:21:35 And I’m standing at the doorstep watching her and she goes out with Simba and Winter, this massive dog and this little tiny dog.

我站在门口看着她，她和辛巴、温特、这只大狗和这只小狗出去了。

And I’m watching her walk to the end of the driveway and she’s just dancing.

我看着她走到车道的尽头，她只是在跳舞。

And it’s pouring.

倾盆大雨。

And I took off my shoes and I went out and I joined her and we danced in the rain.

我脱掉鞋子，出去了，加入了她，我们在雨中跳舞。

And even as a preteen who normally she allowed me to experience the joy with her, and it was amazing.

即使作为一个青春期前的孩子，她通常也让我和她一起体验快乐，这真是太棒了。

2:22:01 We can be so much more fun if we allow ourselves to be more playful.

如果我们让自己变得更有趣，我们就会变得更有趣。

We can be so much more present.

我们可以更加活在当下。

I look at, Theo loves games, so we play a whole lot of board games, any kind of game.

我看，西奥喜欢游戏，所以我们玩了很多棋盘游戏，任何类型的游戏。

So it started with board games.

所以它从棋盘游戏开始。

We do a lot of puzzles.

我们做了很多谜题。

Then it became card games.

后来就变成了纸牌游戏。

I just taught him how to play poker.

我刚刚教他如何打扑克。

Nice.

好的。

He loves backgammon, like any kind of game.

他喜欢双陆棋，就像任何类型的游戏一样。

2:22:23 And he’s so fully in them.

他完全融入其中。

When he plays, he plays.

当他玩的时候，他就玩。

My son Joseph, he loves nature.

我的儿子约瑟夫，他热爱大自然。

And he’ll say to me sometimes when I’m taking a picture of something he’s observing like a beautiful sunset.

有时当我拍摄他所观察到的事物（例如美丽的日落）时，他会对我说。

He’s like, “Mom, just experience it.” I’m like, “Yes, you’re right Joseph, just experience it.”

他说：“妈妈，体验一下吧。”我说：“是的，你说得对，约瑟夫，去体验吧。”

2:22:47 So those kids have taught me so much about sort of reconnecting with what’s real and what’s true and being present in the moment and experiencing joy.

所以这些孩子教会了我很多关于如何与真实和真实的事物重新建立联系、活在当下并体验快乐。

They always give you permission to sort of reignite the inner child to be a kid again.

他们总是允许你重新点燃内心的孩子，让你再次成为一个孩子。

2:22:58 Yeah.

是的。

2:23:04 And it’s interesting what you said that the puzzle of noticing each human being, what makes them beautiful, the unique characteristics, what they’re good at, the way they want to be mentored.

你所说的很有趣，即注意每个人的困惑，是什么让他们美丽，独特的特征，他们擅长什么，他们想要接受指导的方式。

I often see that, especially with coaches and athletes, young athletes aspiring to be great.

我经常看到年轻运动员渴望成为伟大的球员，尤其是教练和运动员。

Each athlete needs to be trained in a different way.

每个运动员都需要以不同的方式进行训练。

For example, with some, you need a softer approach.

例如，对于某些情况，您需要采取更温和的方法。

With me, I always like a dictatorial approach.

对我来说，我总是喜欢独裁的方式。

I like the coach to be this menacing figure.

我喜欢教练这个充满威胁的人物。

That’s what brought out the best in me.

这就是我最好的一面。

I didn’t want to be friends with the coach.

我不想和教练成为朋友。

I wanted almost, it’s weird to say, but yelled at to be pushed.

我几乎想要，说起来很奇怪，但大喊着被推了。

But that doesn’t work for everybody.

但这并不适合所有人。

And that’s a risk you have to take in the coach context of, because you can’t just yell at everybody.

这是你在教练环境中必须承担的风险，因为你不能只是对每个人大喊大叫。

You have to figure out what does each person need.

你必须弄清楚每个人需要什么。

And when you have kids, I imagine the puzzle is even harder.

当你有了孩子后，我想这个难题会更加困难。

And when they all need different things, but yet coexist and are sometimes competitive with one another.

当他们都需要不同的东西，但又共存并且有时相互竞争时。

2:24:13 So you’ll be at a dinner table.

所以你会在餐桌上。

The amount of times I get, “Well, that’s not fair.

我有很多次听到这样的话：“好吧，这不公平。

Why did you let?” And I’m like, “Life isn’t fair.

你为什么让？我想，“生活是不公平的。

And by the way, I’m not here to be fair.” I’m like, “I’m trying to give you each what you need.”

顺便说一句，我来这里并不是为了公平。”我想，“我正在努力为你们每个人提供你们所需要的。”

2:24:29 Especially when I’ve been working really hard and in the White House, I’d say, “Okay, well now we have a Sunday and we have these hours,” and I’ll have a grand plan and we’re going to make a count and it’s going to involve hot chocolate and sleds, whatever it is that my great adventure that we’re going to go play mini golf.

尤其是当我在白宫非常努力地工作时，我会说，“好吧，现在我们有周日，我们有这些时间，”我会有一个宏伟的计划，我们将进行计数，这将涉及热巧克力和雪橇，无论是什么，我们要去打迷你高尔夫球，这都是我伟大的冒险。

And then I come down all psyched up, all ready to go, and the kids have zero interest.

然后我就精神抖擞地下来，准备出发，而孩子们的兴趣为零。

And there have been a lot of times where I’ve been like, “We’re doing this thing.” And then I realized, “Wait a second.” Sometimes you just plop down on the floor and start playing magnet tiles and that’s where they need you.

很多时候我都会说，“我们正在做这件事。”然后我意识到，“等一下。”有时，你只是一屁股坐在地板上，开始玩磁力砖，这就是他们需要你的地方。

2:25:14 So those of us who have sort of alpha personalities who sometimes it’s just witness, witness what they need.

因此，我们这些拥有阿尔法人格的人，有时只是见证者，见证他们所需要的东西。

Play with them and allow them to lead the play.

和他们一起玩，让他们主导游戏。

Don’t force them down a road you may think is more interesting or productive or educational or edifying.

不要强迫他们走一条你认为更有趣、更有成效、更有教育意义或更有启发性的道路。

Just be with them, observe them, and then show them that you are genuinely curious about the things that they are genuinely curious about.

只要和他们在一起，观察他们，然后向他们表明你真的对他们真正好奇的事情感到好奇。

I think there’s a lot of love when you do that.

我认为当你这样做的时候就会充满爱。

Also, there’s just fascinating puzzles.

此外，还有令人着迷的谜题。

2:25:48 I was talking to a friend yesterday and she has four kids and they fight a lot and she generally wants to break up the fights, but she’s like, “I’m not sure if I’m just supposed to let them fight.

昨天我和一个朋友聊天，她有四个孩子，他们经常打架，她通常想制止打架，但她说，“我不确定我是否应该让他们打架。

Can they figure it out?” But you always break them up because I’m told that it’s okay for them to fight.

他们能想出办法吗？”但你总是把他们拆散，因为有人告诉我，他们打架是可以的。

Kids do that.

孩子们这样做。

They kind of figure out their own situation.

他们大概明白了自己的处境。

That’s part of the growing up process.

这是成长过程的一部分。

But you want to always, especially if it’s physical, they’re pushing each other.

但你总是想这样做，尤其是在身体上，他们会互相推动。

You want to kind of stop it.

你想阻止它。

But at the same time, it’s also part of the play, part of the dynamics.

但与此同时，它也是戏剧的一部分，动态的一部分。

And that’s a puzzle you also have to figure out.

这也是你必须解决的一个难题。

And plus, you’re probably worried that they’re going to get hurt if they’re …

另外，您可能担心他们会受伤，如果他们......

Well, I think there’s like when it gets physical that’s like, “Okay, we have to intervene.” I know you’re into martial arts, but that’s normally the red line, once it tips into that.

嗯，我认为当事情变得实际时，就像是，“好吧，我们必须干预。”我知道你喜欢武术，但一旦触及武术，这通常就是红线。

2:26:32 But there is always that, you have to allow them to problem solve for themselves.

但总有一点，你必须让他们自己解决问题。

A little interpersonal conflict is good.

人际间有一点冲突是有好处的。

2:26:53 It’s really hard when you try to navigate something because everyone thinks you’re taking their sides.

当你试图解决某些问题时，这真的很困难，因为每个人都认为你站在他们一边。

You have oftentimes incomplete information.

您常常获得不完整的信息。

I think for parents, what tends to happen too is we see our kids fighting with each other in a way that all kids do and we start to project into the future and catastrophize.

我认为对于父母来说，往往会发生的情况是，我们看到我们的孩子以所有孩子都会做的方式互相争斗，我们开始预测未来并陷入灾难。

If my two sons are going through a moment where they’re like oil and water, anything one wants to do the other doesn’t want to do.

如果我的两个儿子正经历着水火不容的时刻，一个人想做的事另一个人就不想做。

It’s a very interesting moment.

这是一个非常有趣的时刻。

So my instinct is they’re not going to like each other when they’re 25.

所以我的直觉是，当他们 25 岁时，他们就不会互相喜欢了。

You sort of project into the future as opposed to recognizing this is a stage that I too went through, and it’s normal, and it’s not building it in your mind into something that’s unnecessarily consequential.

你有点预测未来，而不是认识到这是我也经历过的一个阶段，这是正常的，并且它不会在你的脑海中将其构建成不必要的后果。

It’s short-term formative conflict.

这是短期的形成性冲突。

Yeah.

是的。

So ever since 2016, the number and the level of attacks you’ve been under has been steadily increasing, has been super intense.

所以自 2016 年以来，您受到的攻击的数量和级别一直在稳步增加，而且非常激烈。

2:27:50 How do you walk through the fire of that?

你如何走过那场大火？

You’ve been very stoic about the whole thing.

你对整件事一直非常坚忍。

I don’t think I’ve ever seen you respond to an attack.

我想我从来没有见过你对攻击做出反应。

You just let it pass over you.

你只是让它从你身边过去。

You stay positive and you focus on solving problems and you didn’t engage.

你保持积极的态度，专注于解决问题，但没有参与其中。

While being in DC you didn’t engage into the back and forth fire of the politics.

在华盛顿期间，你没有卷入政治的来回火力。

So what’s your philosophy behind that?

那么你这背后的理念是什么？

I appreciate you’re saying that I was very stoic about it.

我很感激你说我对此非常坚忍。

2:28:30 I think I feel things pretty deeply.

我想我对事情的感受非常深刻。

So initially some of that really took me off guard, like some of the derivative love and hatred, some of the intensity of the attacks.

所以最初，其中一些确实让我措手不及，比如一些衍生的爱和恨，一些攻击的强度。

And there were times when it was so easy to counter it.

有时候，反击它是如此容易。

I’d even write something out and say, “Well, I’m going to press send,” and never did.

我什至会写下一些东西并说：“好吧，我要按发送”，但从未这样做过。

I felt that sort of getting into the mud, fighting back, it didn’t run true to who I am as a human being.

我觉得那种陷入泥沼、反击的感觉并不符合我作为一个人的真实身份。

It felt at odds with who I am and how I want to spend my time.

这感觉与我是谁以及我想如何度过我的时间不一致。

So I think as a result, I was oftentimes on the receiving end of a lot of cheap shots.

所以我认为，结果是，我经常受到很多廉价的攻击。

And I’m okay with that because it’s sort of the way I know how to be in the world.

我对此很满意，因为这就是我知道如何生活在这个世界上的方式。

I was focused on things I thought mattered more.

我专注于我认为更重要的事情。

2:29:33 And I think part of me also internalized, there’s a concept in Judaism called Lashon hara, which is translated into I think quite literally evil speech.

我认为我的一部分也内化了，犹太教中有一个概念叫做 Lashon hara，我认为它的字面意思是邪恶的言论。

And the idea that speaking poorly of another is almost the moral equivalent to murder because you can’t really repair it.

说别人坏话在道德上几乎等同于谋杀，因为你无法真正修复它。

You can apologize, but you can’t repair it.

你可以道歉，但你无法修复它。

Another component of that is that it does as much damage to the person saying the words than it does to the person receiving them.

其中的另一个组成部分是，它对说这些话的人造成的伤害与对接受这些话的人造成的伤害一样大。

And I think about that a lot.

我对此思考了很多。

I talk about this concept with my kids a lot, and I’m not willing to pay the price of that fleeting and momentary satisfaction of sort of swinging back because I think it would be too expensive for my soul.

我和我的孩子们经常谈论这个概念，我不愿意为那种转瞬即逝的、短暂的满足感付出代价，因为我认为这对我的灵魂来说太昂贵了。

And that’s how I made peace with it, because I think that feels more true for me.

这就是我如何接受它的，因为我认为这对我来说更真实。

2:30:40 But it is a little bit contrary in politics.

但在政治上却有点相反。

It’s definitely a contrarian viewpoint to not get into the fray.

不参与争论绝对是一种逆向观点。

Actually, some day, I love Dolly Parton says that she doesn’t condemn or criticize.

事实上，有一天，我喜欢多莉帕顿说她不谴责或批评。

She loves and accepts.

她爱并接受。

And I like that.

我喜欢这样。

It feels right for me.

这感觉很适合我。

I also like that you said that words have power.

我也喜欢你说言语有力量。

2:31:05 Sometimes people say, “Well, words, when you speak negatively of others, ah, that’s just words.” But I think there’s a cost to that.

有时人们会说：“好吧，言语，当你负面评价别人时，啊，那只是言语。”但我认为这是有代价的。

There’s a cost, like you said, to your soul, and there’s a cost in terms of the damage it can do to the other person, whether it’s to their reputation publicly or to them privately.

正如你所说，你的灵魂需要付出代价，而对他人造成的损害也会带来代价，无论是对他们公开的声誉还是私下的声誉。

It just as a human being psychologically.

这就像一个人在心理上一样。

And in the place that it puts them because they they start thinking negatively in general and then maybe they respond and there’s this vicious downward spiral that happens, that almost like we don’t intend to, but it destroys everybody in the process.

它把他们置于这样的位置，因为他们开始普遍消极思考，然后也许他们做出反应，就会发生这种恶性循环，这几乎就像我们不希望的那样，但它在这个过程中摧毁了每个人。

2:31:46 You quoted Alan Watts, I love him, in saying, “You’re under no obligation to be the same person you were five minutes ago.” So how have the years in DC and the years after changed you?

你引用了艾伦·瓦茨的话，我爱他，他说：“你没有义务成为五分钟前的那个人。”那么，在华盛顿特区的岁月以及之后的岁月给你带来了怎样的改变呢？

I love Alan Watts too.

我也喜欢艾伦·沃茨。

2:32:03 I listen to his lecture sometimes falling asleep and on planes.

我有时会在飞机上或睡着时听他的演讲。

He’s got the most soothing voice.

他有最舒缓的声音。

But I love what he said about you have no obligation to be who you were five minutes ago, because we should always feel that we have the ability to evolve and grow and better ourselves.

但我喜欢他所说的，你没有义务成为五分钟前的自己，因为我们应该始终觉得我们有能力进化、成长、超越自己。

2:32:24 I think further than that, if we don’t look back on who we were a few years ago with some level of embarrassment, we’re not growing enough.

我更进一步认为，如果我们不带着某种程度的尴尬回顾几年前的自己，那么我们的成长还不够。

So there’s nothing.

所以什么都没有。

When I look back, I’m like, oh, I feel like that feeling is because you’re growing into hopefully sort of a better version of yourself.

当我回首往事时，我想，哦，我觉得这种感觉是因为你正在成长为更好的自己。

And I hope and feel that that’s been true for me as well.

我希望并感觉这对我来说也是如此。

I think the person I am today, we spoke in the beginning of our discussion about some of my earliest ambitions in real estate and in fashion, and those were amazing adventures and incredible experiences in government.

我认为今天的我，我们在讨论开始时谈到了我在房地产和时尚领域最早的一些抱负，这些都是令人惊叹的冒险和在政府的令人难以置信的经历。

2:33:12 And I feel today that all of those ambitions are more fully integrated into me as a human being.

今天，我觉得所有这些雄心壮志都更充分地融入了我作为一个人的内心。

I’m much more comfortable with the various pieces of my personality and that any professional drive is more integrated into more simple pleasures.

我对自己个性的各个方面感到更加自在，并且任何专业驾驶都更能融入更简单的乐趣。

Everything for me has gotten much simpler and easier in terms of what I want to do and what I want to be.

就我想做的事情和我想成为的人而言，一切都变得更加简单和容易。

And I think that’s where my kids have been my teachers just being fully present and enjoying the little moments.

我认为这就是我的孩子们一直是我的老师的地方，他们全神贯注地享受着美好的时光。

And it doesn’t mean I’m any less driven than I was before.

这并不意味着我比以前更有动力了。

It’s just more a part of me than being sort of the all-consuming energy one has in their 20s.

它更像是我的一部分，而不是20多岁的人所消耗的全部精力。

Yeah, just like you said, with your mom be able to let go and enjoy the water, the sun, the beach, and enjoy the moment, the simplicity of the moment.

是的，就像你说的，和你妈妈在一起，能够放开手脚，享受水、阳光、海滩，享受这一刻，享受那一刻的简单。

I think a lot about the fact that for a lot of young people, they really know what they want to do, but they don’t actually know who they are.

我想了很多这样一个事实：对于很多年轻人来说，他们确实知道自己想做什么，但实际上并不知道自己是谁。

2:34:12 And then I think as you get older, hopefully you know who you are and you’re much more comfortable with ambiguity around what you want to do and accomplish.

然后我认为，随着年龄的增长，希望你知道自己是谁，并且能够更轻松地接受自己想要做什么和完成什么的模糊性。

You’re more flexible in your thinking around those things.

你对这些事情的思考更加灵活。

And give yourself permission to be who you are.

并允许自己做你自己。

Yeah.

是的。

You made the decision not to engage in the politics of the 2024 campaign.

您决定不参与 2024 年竞选的政治活动。

2:34:40 If it’s okay, let me read what you wrote on the topic.

如果可以的话，让我读一下你写的有关该主题的内容。

“I love my father very much.

“我非常爱我的父亲。

This time around I’m choosing to prioritize my young children and the private life we’re creating as a family.

这一次，我选择优先考虑我的孩子和我们作为一个家庭创造的私人生活。

I do not plan to be involved in politics.

我不打算参与政治。

While I will always love and support my father going forward, I will do …

虽然我将永远爱并支持我的父亲前进，但我会……

2:35:00 While I will always love and support my father, going forward, I will do so outside the political arena.

虽然我将永远爱并支持我的父亲，但展望未来，我将在政治舞台之外这样做。

I’m grateful to have had the honor of serving the American people, and I will always be proud of many of our Administration’s accomplishments.

我很高兴有幸为美国人民服务，我将永远为我们政府的许多成就感到自豪。

So can you explain your thinking, your philosophy behind that decision?

那么你能解释一下你的想法和这个决定背后的哲学吗？

I think first and foremost, it was a decision rooted in me being a parent, really thinking about what they need from me now.

我认为首先也是最重要的是，这是我作为父母做出的决定，真正考虑了他们现在需要我做什么。

2:35:19 Politics is a rough, rough business and I think it’s one that you also can’t dabble in.

政治是一件很艰难很艰难的事情，我想也是你不能涉足的。

I think you have to either be all in or all out.

我认为你必须要么全力以赴，要么全力以赴。

And I know today, the cost they would pay for me being all in, emotionally in terms of my absence at such a formative point in their life.

今天我知道，在他们人生的这个关键阶段，如果我缺席，他们会为我的全力以赴付出情感上的代价。

And I’m not willing to make them bear that cost.

我不愿意让他们承担这个代价。

I served for four years and feel so privileged to have done it, but as their mom, I think it’s really important that I do what’s right for them.

我服务了四年，很荣幸能做到这一点，但作为他们的妈妈，我认为我做对他们正确的事情非常重要。

And I think there are a lot of ways you can serve.

我认为您可以通过多种方式提供服务。

2:36:18 Obviously, we talked about the enormity, the scale of what can be accomplished in government service, but I think there’s something equally valuable about helping within your own community.

显然，我们讨论了政府服务所能完成的工作的艰巨性和规模，但我认为在自己的社区内提供帮助也同样有价值。

And I volunteer with the kids a lot and we feel really good about that service.

我经常和孩子们一起做志愿者，我们对这项服务感觉非常好。

It’s different, but it’s no less meaningful.

虽然有所不同，但意义却丝毫不减。

So I think there are other ways to serve.

所以我认为还有其他的服务方式。

I also think for politics, it’s a pretty dark world.

我还认为对于政治来说，这是一个非常黑暗的世界。

There’s a lot of darkness, a lot of negativity, and it’s just really at odds with what feels good for me as a human being.

有很多黑暗，很多消极情绪，这与我作为一个人的感觉真的不一致。

And it’s a really rough business.

这是一件非常艰难的事情。

So for me and my family, it feels right to not participate.

所以对于我和我的家人来说，不参加是正确的。

So it wears on your soul, and yeah, there is a bit, at least from an outsider’s perspective, a bit of darkness in that part of our world.

所以它会磨损你的灵魂，是的，至少从局外人的角度来看，我们世界的那个部分有一点黑暗。

2:37:12 I wish it didn’t have to be this way.

我希望事情不必是这样。

Me too.

我也是。

I think part of that darkness is just watching all the legal turmoil that’s going on.

我认为这种黑暗的一部分就是目睹所有正在发生的法律混乱。

2:37:25 What’s it like for you to see that your father involved in that, going through that?

看到你的父亲参与其中、经历那件事，你感觉如何？

On a human level, it’s my father and I love him very much, so it’s painful to experience, but ultimately, I wish it didn’t have to be this way.

从人的角度来看，这是我的父亲，我非常爱他，所以经历是痛苦的，但最终，我希望事情不必是这样的。

I like it that underneath all of this, I love my father is the thing that you lead with.

我喜欢在这一切的背后，我爱我的父亲是你领导的东西。

2:37:51 That’s so true.

确实如此。

It is family.

这是家人。

And I hope amidst all this turmoil, love is the thing that wins.

我希望在这一切混乱中，爱是获胜的力量。

It usually does.

通常是这样。

In the end, yes.

最后，是的。

2:38:07 But in the short-term, there is, like we were talking about, there’s a bit of bickering.

但从短期来看，正如我们所说，存在一些争吵。

But at least no more duels.

但至少不再有决斗了。

No more duels.

不再有决斗。

You mentioned Dolly Parton.

你提到了多莉·帕顿。

That’s a segue.

这是一个延续。

Listen, I’m not very good at this thing.

听着，我不太擅长这件事。

2:38:24 I’m trying to figure it out.

我正在想办法。

Okay, we both love Dolly Parton.

好吧，我们都喜欢多莉·帕顿。

So you’re big into live music.

所以你很喜欢现场音乐。

So maybe you can mention why you love Dolly Parton.

所以也许你可以谈谈你为什么喜欢多莉·帕顿。

I definitely would love to interview her.

我绝对很想采访她。

She’s such an icon.

她就是这样一个偶像。

Oh, I hope you can.

哦，我希望你能。

She’s such an incredible human.

她是一个令人难以置信的人。

What I love about her, and I’ve really come to love her in recent years is she’s so authentically herself and she’s obviously so talented and so accomplished and this extraordinary woman, but I just feel like she has no conflict within herself as to who she is.

我爱她的地方，近年来我真正开始爱她的地方是，她是如此真实，她显然如此有才华，如此有成就，是一位非凡的女人，但我只是觉得她内心对于自己是谁没有任何冲突。

2:38:42 She reminds me a lot of my mom in that way, and it’s super refreshing and really beautiful to observe somebody who’s so in the public eye being so fully secure in who they are, what their talent is, and what drives them.

在这方面，她让我想起了我的妈妈，看到一个在公众眼中如此自信的人，对自己的身份、天赋和驱动力如此自信，真是令人耳目一新，真是太美好了。

So I think she’s amazing.

所以我认为她很棒。

And she leads with a lot of love and positivity.

她带着很多爱和积极性来领导。

So I think she’s very cool.

所以我觉得她很酷。

I hope you have a long conversation with her.

我希望你能和她进行一次长时间的交谈。

Yeah.

是的。

2:39:26 She’s like…

她就像……

Okay.

好的。

So there’s many things to say about her.

所以关于她有很多话要说。

First, incredibly great musician, songwriters, performer.

首先，非常伟大的音乐家、词曲作者、表演者。

Also can create an image and have fun with it, have fun being herself, over the top.

还可以创建一个图像并享受它的乐趣，享受做她自己的乐趣，超越顶部。

It feels that way, right?

感觉就是这样，对吧？

2:39:41 She’s really, she enjoys.

她真的，她很享受。

After all these years, it feels like she enjoys what she does.

这么多年过去了，她感觉她很享受自己所做的事情。

And you also have the sense that if she didn’t, she wouldn’t do it.

而且你也会感觉到，如果她不这样做，她就不会这样做。

That’s right.

没错。

2:39:51 And just an iconic country musician.

而且只是一位标志性的乡村音乐家。

Country music singer.

乡村音乐歌手。

Yeah.

是的。

There’s a lot.

有很多。

2:39:58 We’ve talked about a lot of musicians.

我们谈论了很多音乐家。

Who do you enjoy?

你喜欢谁？

You mentioned Adele, seeing her perform, hanging out with her.

你提到阿黛尔，看她表演，和她一起出去玩。

Yeah, I mean, she’s extraordinary.

是的，我的意思是，她很非凡。

2:40:05 Her voice is unreal.

她的声音不真实。

So I find her to be so talented.

所以我觉得她很有才华。

And she’s so unique in that three year olds love her music.

她是如此独特，三岁的孩子都喜欢她的音乐。

She was actually the first concert Arabella ever went to at Madison Square Garden when she was around four.

事实上，她是阿拉贝拉四岁时在麦迪逊广场花园参加的第一场音乐会。

And 90-year-olds love her music.

90后也喜欢她的音乐。

And that’s pretty rare to have that kind of bandwidth of resonance.

拥有这种共振带宽是非常罕见的。

So I think she’s so talented.

所以我觉得她很有才华。

We actually just saw her, I took all three kids in Las Vegas around a month ago.

实际上我们刚刚见过她，大约一个月前我带着三个孩子去了拉斯维加斯。

Alice Johnson, whose case I had worked with in the White House, my father commuted her sentence, her case was brought to me by a friend, Kim Kardashian, and she came to the show.

我曾在白宫处理过爱丽丝·约翰逊（Alice Johnson）的案件，我父亲为她减刑，她的案件是由朋友金·卡戴珊（Kim Kardashian）交给我的，她也来参加了节目。

We all went together with some mutual friends.

我们都是和一些共同的朋友一起去的。

And that was a very profound…

那是一个非常深刻的……

It was amazing to see Adele, but it was a very profound experience for me to have with my kids because she rode with us in the car on the way to the show, and she talked to my kids about her experience and her story and how her case found its way to me.

见到阿黛尔真是太棒了，但对我来说，和我的孩子们在一起是一次非常深刻的经历，因为她和我们一起开车去演出，她和我的孩子们谈论了她的经历和故事，以及她的案子是如何找到我的。

2:41:12 And I think for young children, it’s very abstract, policy.

我认为对于年幼的孩子来说，这是非常抽象的政策。

And so for her to be able to share with them this was a very beautiful moment and led to a lot of really incredible conversations with each of my kids about our time and service because they gave up a lot for me to do it.

因此，对她来说，能够与他们分享这是一个非常美好的时刻，并导致我与我的每个孩子就我们的时间和服务进行了很多令人难以置信的对话，因为他们为我放弃了很多。

Actually, Alice told them the most beautiful story about the plays she used to put on in prison, how these shows were the hottest ticket in town.

事实上，爱丽丝向他们讲述了她过去在监狱里上演的戏剧的最美丽的故事，这些演出是如何成为镇上最热门的门票的。

You could not get into them, they always extended their run.

你无法进入他们，他们总是延长跑程。

But for the people who were in them, a lot of those men and women had never experienced applause.

但对于其中的人来说，很多男人和女人从未经历过掌声。

Nobody had ever shown up at their games or at their plays and clapped for them.

从来没有人出现在他们的比赛或表演中并为他们鼓掌。

And the emotional experience of just being able to give someone that, being able to stand and applaud for someone and how meaningful that was.

能够给予某人这样的情感体验，能够起立为某人鼓掌，这是多么有意义的事情。

And she was showing us pictures from these different productions and it was a beautiful moment.

她向我们展示了这些不同作品的照片，那是一个美好的时刻。

2:42:17 Alice actually, after her sentence was commuted and she came out of prison, together, we worked on 23 different pardons or commutations.

事实上，爱丽丝在她的刑期被减刑并出狱后，我们一起进行了 23 次不同的赦免或减刑。

So the impact of her experience and how she was able to take her opportunity and create that same opportunity for others who were deserving and who she believed in was very beautiful.

因此，她的经历的影响以及她如何能够抓住机会并为其他值得的人和她相信的人创造同样的机会是非常美好的。

So anyway, that was an extraordinary concert experience for my kids to be able to have that moment.

所以无论如何，对于我的孩子们来说，能够拥有那一刻，那是一次非凡的音乐会体验。

What a story.

多么有故事啊。

2:42:50 So that’s the…

这就是……

Then here we are dancing at Adele.

然后我们在阿黛尔跳舞。

Exactly, exactly.

完全正确。

2:42:56 It’s like that turning point.

就像那个转折点。

Six years later was almost to the day, six years later.

六年后几乎到了这一天，六年后。

So that policy, that meeting of the minds resulted in a major turning point in her life and Alice’s life.

因此，这项政策、这次思想的碰撞导致了她和爱丽丝生活的重大转折。

2:43:01 And now you’re even dancing with Adele.

现在你甚至可以和阿黛尔一起跳舞。

And now we’re at Adele.

现在我们在阿黛尔。

Yeah.

是的。

2:43:09 I mean, you mentioned also there, I’ve seen commutations where it’s an opportunity to step in and consider the ways that the justice system does not always work well like in cases when it’s nonviolent crime and drug offenses, there’s a case of a person you mentioned that received a life sentence for selling weed.

我的意思是，你在那里也提到过，我见过减刑，这是一个介入的机会，并考虑司法系统并不总是运作良好的方式，就像在非暴力犯罪和毒品犯罪的情况下一样，有一个你提到的人因出售大麻而被判无期徒刑的案例。

And it’s just the number…

这只是数字……

It’s like hundreds of thousands of people are in the federal prison, in jail, in the system for selling drugs.

这就好像有数十万人被关在联邦监狱、监狱、贩毒系统中。

That’s the only thing.

这是唯一的事情。

With no violence on their record whatsoever.

他们的记录中没有任何暴力行为。

Obviously, there’s a lot of complexity.

显然，这有很多复杂性。

There’s the details matter, but oftentimes, the justice system does not do right in the way we think right is, and it’s nice to be able to step in and help people indirectly.

细节很重要，但司法系统常常没有按照我们认为正确的方式行事，能够介入并间接帮助人们是件好事。

They’re overlooked and they have no advocate.

他们被忽视，也没有拥护者。

2:44:08 Jared and I helped in a small way on his effort, but he really spearheaded the effort on criminal justice reform through the First Step Act, which was an enormously consequential piece of legislation that gave so many people another opportunity, and that was amazing.

贾里德和我为他的努力提供了一点帮助，但他确实通过《第一步法案》带头推动了刑事司法改革，这是一项意义重大的立法，给了很多人另一个机会，这真是太棒了。

So working with him closely on that was a beautiful thing for us to also experience together.

因此，与他在这方面密切合作对我们来说也是一件美好的事情，可以一起经历。

But in the final days of the administration, you’re not getting legislation passed and anything you do administratively is going to be probably overturned by an incoming administration.

但在政府执政的最后几天，立法不会获得通过，你在行政上所做的任何事情都可能会被即将上任的政府推翻。

So how do you use that time for maximum results?

那么如何利用这段时间获得最大效果呢？

2:44:51 And I really dug in on pardons and commutations that I thought were overdue and were worthy.

我真的很努力地寻求赦免和减刑，我认为这些是逾期且值得的。

And my last night in Washington, D.C., the gentleman you mentioned, Corvin, I was on the phone with his mother at 12:30 in the morning, telling her that her son would be getting out the next day.

我在华盛顿特区的最后一晚，你提到的那位先生 Corvin，我在凌晨 12:30 给他的母亲打电话，告诉她她的儿子第二天就会出去。

And it felt really…

而且感觉真的是……

It’s one person.

这是一个人。

But you see with Alice, the ripple effect of the commutation granted to her and her ability and the impact she’ll have within her family, with her grandkids.

但你会看到爱丽丝，减刑对她、她的能力以及她对她的家庭和她的孙子孙女的影响所产生的连锁反应。

And now, she’s an advocate for so many others who are voiceless.

现在，她成为许多其他无声者的倡导者。

It felt like the perfect way to end four years, to be able to call those parents and call those kids in some cases and give them the news that a loved one was coming home.

这感觉像是结束四年的完美方式，能够给父母打电话，在某些情况下给孩子打电话，告诉他们亲人要回家的消息。

And I just love the cool image of you, Kim Kardashian, and Alice just dancing on Adele’s show with the kids.

我很喜欢你、金·卡戴珊和爱丽丝在阿黛尔的节目中与孩子们一起跳舞的酷炫形象。

2:45:44 I love it.

我喜欢它。

Well, Kim wasn’t at the Adele show, but-

好吧，金没有参加阿黛尔秀，但是——

Oh, she’s the…

哦，她是……

2:45:52 Got it.

明白了。

She had connected us.

她把我们联系起来了。

2:45:53 It was beautiful.

很漂亮。

It was really beautiful.

真的很漂亮。

The way Adele can hold just the badassness she has on stage, she does heartbreak songs better than anyone.

阿黛尔在舞台上能保持自己的坏脾气，她比任何人都更擅长唱令人心碎的歌曲。

2:45:56 Or no, it’s not even heartbreak.

或者不，这甚至不是心碎。

What’s that genre of song, like Rolling in the Deep, like a little anger, a little love, a little something, a little attitude, and just one of the greatest voices ever.

那种类型的歌曲是什么，比如《Rolling in the Deep》，就像一点愤怒，一点爱，一点东西，一点态度，而且只是有史以来最伟大的声音之一。

All that together just her by herself.

所有这一切加在一起只有她一个人。

Yeah, you can strip it down and the power of her voice.

是的，你可以剥夺它和她声音的力量。

2:46:22 I think about that.

我想了一下。

One of the things we were talking about live music, one of the amazing things now is there’s so much incredible concert material that’s been uploaded to YouTube.

我们谈论的现场音乐之一，现在令人惊奇的事情之一是有这么多令人难以置信的音乐会材料已上传到 YouTube。

So sometimes I just sit there and watch these old shows.

所以有时我只是坐在那里看这些老节目。

We both love Stevie Ray Vaughan, like watching him perform.

我们都喜欢史蒂夫·雷·沃恩，喜欢看他表演。

You can even find old videos of Django Reinhardt.

您甚至可以找到 Django Reinhardt 的旧视频。

You got me.

你抓住了我。

I got you-

我找到你了-

Stevie Ray Vaughan.

史蒂维·雷·沃恩。

…

……

2:46:49 Texas Flood.

德克萨斯州洪水。

We had this moment, which is hilarious that you said one of the songs you really like of Stevie’s is Texas Flood.

我们度过了这一刻，这很搞笑，你说你真正喜欢史蒂夫的歌曲之一是《德克萨斯洪水》。

Well, my bucket list is to learn how to play it.

嗯，我的愿望清单就是学习如何玩它。

It’s a bucket list.

这是一个愿望清单。

2:47:00 This is a bucket list item.

这是一个遗愿清单项目。

You made me feel so good because for me, Texas Flood was the first solo on guitar I’ve ever learned because for me, it was the impossible solo.

你让我感觉很好，因为对我来说，Texas Flood 是我学过的第一首吉他独奏，因为对我来说，这是不可能的独奏。

And then so I worked really hard to learn it.

然后我就非常努力地学习它。

It’s like one of the most iconic sort of blues songs, Texas blues songs.

这就像最具标志性的布鲁斯歌曲之一，德克萨斯布鲁斯歌曲。

And now, you made me fall in love with the song again and want to play it out live, at the very least, put it up on YouTube because it’s so fun to improvise.

现在，你让我再次爱上了这首歌，并想现场演奏它，至少把它放在 YouTube 上，因为即兴创作非常有趣。

And when you lose yourself in the song, it truly is a blues song.

当你沉浸在这首歌中时，它确实是一首布鲁斯歌曲。

You can have fun with it.

你可以享受它的乐趣。

I hope you do do that.

我希望你能这么做。

Throw on a Stevie Ray Vaughan-

穿上史蒂维·雷·沃恩 (Stevie Ray Vaughan) -

Regardless, I want you to play it for me.

无论如何，我希望你为我演奏。

100%.

100%。

2:47:38 100%.

100%。

But he’s amazing.

但他很棒。

2:47:42 And there’s so many great performers that are playing live now.

现在有很多伟大的表演者正在现场表演。

I just saw Chris Stapleton’s show.

我刚刚看了克里斯·斯泰普尔顿的节目。

He’s an amazing country artist.

他是一位了不起的乡村艺术家。

He’s too good.

他太优秀了。

He’s so good.

他太好了。

That guy is so good.

那家伙真好。

Lukas Nelson’s-

卢卡斯·纳尔逊的-

Lukas Nelson’s amazing.

卢卡斯·尼尔森太棒了。

…

……

2:47:56 one of my favorites to see live.

我最喜欢看现场直播的节目之一。

And there’s so many incredible songwriters and musicians that are out there touring today, but I think you also, you can go online and watch some of these old performances.

今天有很多令人难以置信的歌曲作者和音乐家正在巡回演出，但我想你也可以上网观看一些老表演。

Like Django Reinhardt was the first, because I torture myself, was the first song I learned to play on the guitar and it took me nine months to a year.

就像姜戈·莱因哈特（Django Reinhardt）是第一首，因为我折磨自己，这是我学会用吉他弹奏的第一首歌，我花了九个月到一年的时间。

I mean, I should have chosen a different song, but Où es-tu mon amour?, one of his songs, was…

我的意思是，我应该选择另一首歌，但 Où es-tu mon amour?，他的一首歌，是……

And it was like finger style and I was just going through and grinding it out.

这就像手指风格，我只是在经历并磨练它。

And that’s kind of how I started to learn to play, by playing that song.

这就是我开始学习演奏的方式，通过演奏那首歌。

But to see these old videos of him playing without all his fingers and the skill and the dexterity, one of my favorite live performances is actually who really influenced Adele is Aretha Franklin.

但看到他在没有所有手指、技巧和灵巧的情况下演奏的这些旧视频，我最喜欢的现场表演之一实际上是真正影响阿黛尔的是艾瑞莎·富兰克林。

And she did a version of Amazing Grace.

她还出演了《奇异恩典》的一个版本。

Have you ever seen this video?

你看过这个视频吗？

No.

不。

I cry.

我哭了。

2:48:55 Look up…

抬头看……

It was in LA.

那是在洛杉矶。

It was like the Temple Missionary Baptist Church.

它就像圣殿传教浸信会教堂。

Talk about stripped down.

谈论脱衣。

She’s literally a…

她实际上是一个……

I mean, just listen to this.

我的意思是，听听这个。

Well, you could do one note and you could just kill it.

好吧，你可以写一个音符，然后你就可以把它杀死。

2:49:05 The pain, the soulfulness.

痛苦，灵魂。

The spirit you feel in her when you watch this.

当你看到这个时，你会感受到她的精神。

That’s true.

确实如此。

2:49:27 Adele carries some of that spirit also.

阿黛尔也继承了一些这种精神。

Right?

对吗？

Yeah.

是的。

2:49:30 And you can take away all the instruments with Adele and just have that voice and it’s so commanding and it’s so…

你可以和阿黛尔一起拿走所有的乐器，只留下那个声音，它是如此的指挥，它是如此……

Anyway, you watch this and you see the arc of also the experience of the people in the choir and them starting to join in.

不管怎样，当你观看这个节目时，你会看到合唱团成员的经历以及他们开始加入的弧线。

And anyway, it’s amazing.

不管怎样，这太棒了。

I love watching Queen, like Freddie Mercury, Queen performances in terms of vocalists and just great stage presence.

我喜欢看皇后乐队，就像弗雷迪·墨丘利一样，皇后乐队在歌手和舞台表现力方面的表演。

That Live Aid performance is considered one of the best of all, I think.

我认为，现场援助表演被认为是最好的表演之一。

I’ve watched that so many times.

我已经看过很多次了。

2:50:02 He’s so cool.

他太酷了。

Can we pull up that for a second?

我们可以把它拉一下吗？

2:50:05 Go to that part where he’s singing Radio Ga Ga and they’re all mimicking in his arm movements.

到他唱《Radio Ga Ga》的那部分，他们都在模仿他的手臂动作。

It’s so cool.

太酷了。

Radio ga ga.

电台嘎嘎。

All we hear is.

我们所听到的只是。

Look at that.

看看那个。

Radio ga ga.

电台嘎嘎。

Oh, man.

哦，伙计。

2:50:22 I miss that guy.

我想念那个人。

So good.

太好了。

So that’s an example of a person that was born to be on stage.

这是一个天生适合舞台的例子。

So good.

太好了。

2:50:28 Well, we were talking surfing, we were talking jiu-jitsu.

嗯，我们在谈论冲浪，我们在谈论柔术。

I think live music is one of those kind of rare moments where you can really be present, where something about the anticipation of choosing what show you’re going to go to and then waiting for the date to come.

我认为现场音乐是一种难得的时刻，你可以真正地在场，期待选择你要去看什么演出，然后等待约会的到来。

And normally, it happens in the context of community.

通常，它发生在社区背景下。

You go with friends and then allowing yourself to sort of fall into it is incredible.

你和朋友一起去，然后让自己陷入其中，这是令人难以置信的。

So you’ve been training jiu-jitsu.

所以你一直在训练柔术。

Yes.

是的。

2:50:59 Trying.

尝试。

I mean, I’ve seen you do jiu-jitsu.

我是说，我见过你练柔术。

2:51:03 You’re very athletic.

你很有运动天赋。

You know how to use your body to commit violence.

你知道如何利用你的身体来实施暴力。

Maybe there’s better ways of phrasing that, but anyway-

也许有更好的表达方式，但无论如何——

It’s been a skill that’s been honed over time.

这是一项经过时间磨练的技能。

Yeah.

是的。

2:51:17 I mean, what do you like about jiu-jitsu?

我的意思是，你喜欢柔术的什么？

Well, first of all, I love the way I came to it.

嗯，首先，我喜欢我的方式。

2:51:21 It was my daughter.

是我女儿。

I think I told you this story.

我想我已经告诉过你这个故事了。

At 11, she told me that she wanted to learn self-defense, and she wanted to learn how to protect herself, which I just, as a mom, I was so proud about because at 11, I was not thinking about defending myself.

11岁时，她告诉我她想学习自卫，她想学习如何保护自己，作为一个妈妈，我对此感到非常自豪，因为11岁时，我并没有考虑保护自己。

I loved that she had sort of that desire and awareness.

我喜欢她有那种渴望和意识。

So I called some friends, actually a mutual friend of ours, and asked around for people who I could work with in Miami, and they recommended the Valente Brothers’ studio.

所以我打电话给一些朋友，实际上是我们共同的朋友，并询问了可以在迈阿密与我一起工作的人，他们推荐了瓦伦特兄弟的工作室。

And you’ve met all three of them now.

现在你已经见过他们三个了。

They’re these remarkable human beings, and they’ve been so wonderful for our family.

他们是杰出的人，他们对我们的家庭来说非常美好。

I mean, first, starting with Arabella, I used to take her and then she’d kind of encouraged me and she’d sort of pull me into it and I started doing it with her.

我的意思是，首先，从阿拉贝拉开始，我曾经带她去，然后她有点鼓励我，她有点把我拉进去，我开始和她一起做。

And then Joseph and Theo saw us doing it, they wanted to start doing it.

然后约瑟夫和西奥看到我们这样做，他们想开始这样做。

So now they joined and then Jared joined.

所以现在他们加入了，然后贾里德也加入了。

So now, we’re all doing jiu-jitsu.

所以现在，我们都在练习柔术。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

2:52:25 That’s great.

太好了。

And for me, there’s something really empowering, knowing that I have some basic skills to defend myself.

对我来说，知道我有一些基本技能来保护自己，这确实是一种赋予我力量的东西。

2:52:26 I think it’s something, as humans, we’ve kind of gotten away from.

我认为作为人类，这是我们已经逃避的事情。

When you look at any other animal and even the giraffe, they’ll use their neck, the lion, the tiger, every species.

当你观察任何其他动物，甚至长颈鹿时，它们都会使用脖子，狮子，老虎，每个物种。

And then there’s us, who most of us don’t.

然后是我们，我们大多数人都没有。

And I didn’t know how to protect myself.

而且我不知道如何保护自己。

And I think that it gives you a sense of confidence and also gives you kind of a sense of calm, knowing how to de-escalate rather than escalate a situation.

我认为这会给你一种自信感，也会给你一种平静感，知道如何缓和而不是升级局势。

I also think as part of the training, you develop more natural awareness when you’re out and about.

我还认为，作为培训的一部分，当你外出走动时，你会培养出更自然的意识。

2:53:15 And I feel like especially everyone’s…

我觉得尤其是每个人的……

You get on an elevator and the first thing people do is pick up their phone.

当你踏上电梯时，人们做的第一件事就是拿起电话。

You’re walking down the street, people are getting hit by cars because they’re walking into traffic.

你走在街上，人们会因为走进车流而被汽车撞到。

I think as you start to get this training, you become much more aware of the broader context of what’s happening around you, which is really healthy and good as well.

我认为当你开始接受这种培训时，你会更加了解周围发生的事情的更广泛背景，这也是非常健康和有益的。

But it’s been beautiful.

但它已经很美丽了。

Actually, the Valente Brothers, they have this 753code that was developed with some of the samurai principles in mind.

事实上，Valente 兄弟，他们有这个 753code，它是在考虑到武士原则的情况下开发的。

And all of my kids have memorized it and they’ll talk to me about it.

我所有的孩子都记住了它，他们会和我谈论它。

Theo, he’s eight years old, he’s able to recite all 15.

西奥，他八岁了，他能背诵全部 15 首。

So benevolence and fitness and nutrition and flow and awareness and balance.

所以仁爱、健身、营养、流动、意识和平衡。

And it’s an unbelievable thing.

这是一件令人难以置信的事情。

And they’ll actually integrate it into conversations where they’ll talk about something that…

他们实际上会把它融入到对话中，他们会谈论一些……

Yeah, rectitude, courage.

是的，正直、勇气。

Benevolence, respect, honesty, honor, loyalty.

仁慈、尊重、诚实、荣誉、忠诚。

2:54:17 So this is not about jiu-jitsu techniques or fighting techniques.

所以这不是关于柔术技术或格斗技术的。

This is about a way of life, about the way you interact with the world with other people.

这是关于一种生活方式，关于你与世界和其他人互动的方式。

Exercise, nutrition, rest, hygiene, positivity, that’s more on the physical side of things.

锻炼、营养、休息、卫生、积极性，这些更多的是身体方面的。

Awareness, balance, and flow.

意识、平衡和流动。

It’s the mind, the body, the soul, effectively, is how they break it out.

他们有效地通过思想、身体、灵魂来突破它。

2:54:34 And the kids can only advance and get their stripes if they really internalize this, they give examples of each of them.

孩子们只有真正内化了这一点，才能进步并获得他们的条纹，他们给出了每个人的例子。

And my own kids will come home from school and they’ll tell me examples of how things happened that weren’t aligned with the 753code.

我自己的孩子放学回家后，他们会告诉我一些不符合 753 代码的事情是如何发生的。

So it’s a framework much like religion is in our house and can be for others.

所以这是一个框架，就像我们家里的宗教一样，也可以为其他人服务。

It’s a framework to discuss things that happen in their life, large and small, and has been beautiful.

这是一个讨论生活中发生的大大小小的事情的框架，而且很美好。

So I do think that body-mind connection is super strong in jiu-jitsu.

所以我确实认为柔术中身心的联系非常强大。

So there’s many things I love about the Valente Brothers, but one of them is the how rooted it is in philosophy and history of martial arts in general.

所以我喜欢瓦伦特兄弟的很多地方，但其中之一是它在武术哲学和历史中的根基。

2:55:12 A lot of places, you’ll practice the sport of it, maybe the art of it, but to recognize the history and what it means to be a martial artist broadly on and off the mat, that’s really great.

在很多地方，你会练习这项运动，也许是它的艺术，但要认识到历史以及在赛场内外成为一名武术家意味着什么，这真的很棒。

And the other thing that’s great is they also don’t forget the self-defense root, the actual fighting roots.

另一件很棒的事情是他们也没有忘记自卫的根源，真正的战斗根源。

So it’s not just a sport, it’s a way to defend yourself on the street in all situations.

因此，这不仅仅是一项运动，更是一种在任何情况下在街上保护自己的方式。

And that gives you a confidence in, just like you said, an awareness about your own body and awareness about others.

正如你所说，这让你对自己的身体和他人的身体有信心。

Sadly, we forget, but it’s a world full of violence or the capacity for violence.

可悲的是，我们忘记了，这是一个充满暴力或暴力潜力的世界。

So it’s good to have an awareness of that and the confidence how to essentially avoid it.

因此，意识到这一点并有信心如何从根本上避免它是件好事。

100%.

100%。

2:56:03 I’ve seen it with all of my kids and myself, how much they’ve benefited from it.

我和我所有的孩子以及我自己都亲眼目睹了这一点，他们从中受益匪浅。

But that self-defense component and the philosophical elements of…

但自卫成分和哲学元素……

Pedro will often tell them about wuwei and sort of soft resistance and some of these sort of more eastern philosophies that they get exposed to through their practice there that are sort of non-resistance, that are beautiful and hard concepts to internalize as an adult, but especially when you’re 12, 10, and 8 respectively.

佩德罗经常会告诉他们关于无为和某种软抵抗，以及他们通过在那里的练习接触到的一些更东方的哲学，这些哲学是一种不抵抗，这些概念对于成年人来说是美丽而难以内化的，尤其是当你分别是12岁、10岁和8岁的时候。

So it’s been an amazing experience for us all.

所以这对我们所有人来说都是一次奇妙的经历。

I love people like Pedro because he’s finding books that are in Japanese and translating them to try to figure out the details of a particular history.

我喜欢佩德罗这样的人，因为他会寻找日语书籍并翻译它们，以试图弄清楚特定历史的细节。

2:56:51 He’s an ultra scholar of martial arts, and I love that.

他是一位超级武术学者，我喜欢这一点。

I love when people give everything, every part of themselves to the thing they’re practicing.

我喜欢人们把自己的一切、每一部分都奉献给他们正在练习的事情。

People have been fighting each other for a very long time.

人们互相争斗已经很长时间了。

From the Colosseum on.

从罗马斗兽场开始。

You can’t fake anything.

你不能伪造任何东西。

You can’t lie about anything.

你不能对任何事情撒谎。

It’s truly honest.

这确实是诚实的。

You’re there and you either win or lose.

你就在那里，你要么赢，要么输。

And it’s simple.

这很简单。

And it’s also humbling, that the reality of that is humbling.

这也是令人谦卑的，现实是令人谦卑的。

And oftentimes in life, things are not that simple, not that black and white.

而生活中很多时候事情并不是那么简单，不是那么非黑即白。

So it’s nice to have that sometimes.

所以有时候有这样的感觉真是太好了。

2:57:35 That’s the biggest thing I gained from jiu-jitsu, is getting my ass kicked, was the humbling.

这是我从柔术中获得的最大收获，就是被人踢屁股，就是谦卑。

And it’s nice to just get humbled in a very clear way.

以一种非常明确的方式表达谦卑的感觉真是太好了。

Sports in general are great for that.

一般来说，体育运动对此很有帮助。

I think surfing probably because I can imagine just face planting, not being able to stay on the board.

我认为冲浪可能是因为我可以想象只是面朝下，无法留在冲浪板上。

It’s humbling.

这是令人谦卑的。

And the power of the wave is humbling.

波浪的力量令人谦卑。

So just like your mom, you’re an adventurer.

所以就像你妈妈一样，你是一个冒险家。

Your bucket list is probably like 120 pages.

您的愿望清单可能有 120 页左右。

It’s a lot.

很多。

There are things that just popped to mind that you’re thinking about, especially in the near future?

您突然想到一些事情，尤其是在不久的将来？

2:58:11 Just anything.

随便什么。

Well, I hope it always is long.

好吧，我希望它永远很长。

2:58:17 I hope I’ve never exhausted exploring all the things I’m curious about.

我希望我永远不会耗尽对所有我好奇的事物的探索。

I always tell my kids whenever they say, “Mom, I’m bored.”, “Only boring people get bored.” There’s too much to learn.

每当我的孩子们说“妈妈，我很无聊”、“只有无聊的人才会感到无聊”时，我总是告诉他们。有太多东西需要学习。

There’s too much to learn.

有太多东西需要学习。

So I’ve got a long one.

所以我有一个很长的。

I think, obviously, there are some immediate tactical, interesting things that I’m doing.

我认为，显然，我正在做一些直接的、战术性的、有趣的事情。

I’m incubating a bunch of businesses, I’m investing in a bunch of companies that hopefully I’ll always can continue to do that.

我正在孵化很多企业，我正在投资很多公司，希望我能够继续这样做。

Some of the fun things I’m doing in real estate now.

我现在在房地产领域做的一些有趣的事情。

So those are all on the list of things I’m passionate and excited about, continuing to explore and learn.

所以这些都在我热衷和兴奋的事情清单上，继续探索和学习。

But in terms of the ones that are more pure sort of adventure or hobby, I think I’d like to climb Mount Kilimanjaro.

但就更纯粹的冒险或爱好而言，我想我想攀登乞力马扎罗山。

Actually, I know I would.

事实上，我知道我会的。

And the only thing keeping me from doing it in the short-term is I feel like it’d be such a great experience to do with my kids and I’d love to have that experience with them.

唯一阻止我在短期内这样做的事情是，我觉得和我的孩子们一起做这件事会是一次很棒的经历，我很想和他们一起经历这样的经历。

2:59:14 I also told Arabella, we were talking about this archery competition that happens in Mongolia, and she loves horseback riding.

我还告诉阿拉贝拉，我们正在谈论蒙古举行的射箭比赛，她喜欢骑马。

So I’m like, I feel like that would be an amazing thing to experience together.

所以我想，我觉得一起经历这将是一件了不起的事情。

I want to get barreled by a wave and learn how to play Texas Flood.

我想被海浪击打并学习如何玩德克萨斯洪水。

I want to see the Northern Lights.

我想看北极光。

I want to go and experience that.

我想去体验一下。

I feel like that would be really beautiful.

我感觉那样的话真的会很美。

I want to get my black belt.

我想获得黑带。

Black belt?

黑带？

2:59:42 Nice.

好的。

I asked you, “How long did it take?” So I want to get my black belt in jiu-jitsu.

我问你：“花了多长时间？”所以我想获得柔术黑带。

2:59:45 That’s going to be a longer-term goal, but within the next decade.

这将是一个长期目标，但在未来十年内。

Yeah.

是的。

Outer space?

外层空间？

A lot of things.

很多事情。

2:59:58 I’d love to go to space.

我很想去太空。

Not just space.

不仅仅是空间。

I think I’d love to go to the moon.

我想我很想去月球。

Like step on the moon?

比如踏上月球？

Yeah.

是的。

3:00:05 Or float in close proximity, like that famous photo.

或者漂浮在附近，就像那张著名的照片一样。

Yeah.

是的。

3:00:11 With just you in a…

只有你在……

The space suit.

太空服。

3:00:14 I feel like Mars is, [inaudible 03:00:18] at this point in my life…

我觉得火星，[听不清 03:00:18] 在我生命的这个时刻......

Well, the moon’s like four days, feels more manageable.

嗯，月球大约有四天，感觉更容易管理。

I don’t know.

我不知道。

3:00:25 But the sunset on Mars is blue.

但火星上的日落是蓝色的。

It’s the opposite color.

这是相反的颜色。

I hear it’s beautiful.

我听说它很漂亮。

It might be worth it.

这可能是值得的。

I don’t know.

我不知道。

You negotiate with Theo.

你和西奥谈判。

Yeah.

是的。

Let me know how it goes.

让我知道进展如何。

3:00:31 Let me know how it goes.

让我知道进展如何。

I think actually, just even going to space where you can look back on Earth.

我认为实际上，甚至只要去太空，你就可以回顾地球。

3:00:35 I think that just to see this little-

我想只是为了看到这个小-

Pale blue dot?

淡蓝色的点？

…

……

3:00:44 pale blue dot, just all the stuff that ever happened in human civilization is on that.

淡蓝色的点，人类文明中发生过的所有事情都在上面。

And to be able to look at it and just be in awe, I don’t think that’s a thing that will go away.

能够看到它并感到敬畏，我认为这不会消失。

I think being interplanetary, my hope is that that heightens for us how rare it is what we have, how precious the Earth is.

我认为作为星际生物，我的希望是，这对我们来说是多么稀有，地球是多么珍贵。

3:00:56 I hope that it has that effect because I think there’s a big component to interplanetary travel that kind of taps into this kind of manifest destiny inclination, like the human desire to conquer territory and expand the footprint of civilization.

我希望它能产生这种效果，因为我认为星际旅行有一个很大的组成部分，可以利用这种明显的命运倾向，就像人类征服领土和扩大文明足迹的渴望一样。

That sometimes feels much more rooted in dominance and conquest than curiosity, wonder.

有时，这种感觉更多地植根于统治和征服，而不是好奇心和惊奇。

And obviously, I think there’s maybe an existential imperative for it at some point, or a strategic and security one.

显然，我认为在某些时候它可能是存在的必要性，或者是战略和安全性的必要性。

But I hope that what feels inevitable at this moment, I mean, you know Elon Musk and what he’s doing with SpaceX and Jeff Bezos and others, it feels like it’s not an if, it’s a when at this point.

但我希望此刻感觉不可避免的事情，我的意思是，你知道埃隆·马斯克以及他与 SpaceX 和杰夫·贝佐斯等人所做的事情，感觉这不是一个“如果”，而是一个“何时”。