克雷格·琼斯：巴西柔术、200 万美元奖金、CJI、ADCC、乌克兰与网络挑衅
Craig Jones: Jiu Jitsu, $2 Million Prize, CJI, ADCC, Ukraine & Trolling
柔术选手谈职业赛事与高额奖金、ADCC 与 CJI 的竞争，以及对乌克兰和网络挑衅言论的看法。
他带着一百万美金现金，上了一档全球最火的播客。钱装在一个袋子里，没有保镖，没有安保团队，就他自己开着车，把袋子从某个从未见过面的陌生人家里运到乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）的录制现场。他还提前把现金照片发给了所有认识的人。事后被问起这算不算安全风险，他想了想，说：是挺大风险的。
这个人叫克雷格·琼斯（Craig Jones）。澳大利亚人，职业柔术选手，拿过多次世界级无道服缠斗冠军，同时大概是整个格斗圈最会讲段子的家伙。在这次和莱克斯·弗里德曼（Lex Fridman）的对话里，他的故事远比「会耍嘴皮子的柔术运动员」这个标签复杂。他把一场总奖金超过两百万美元的柔术赛事，硬生生安排在了柔术界最负盛名的 ADCC 比赛的同一个周末；他两次跑去乌克兰，一次比一次深入前线，最近的时候离俄军阵地只有七百米；他被炮弹震到整栋楼摇晃，被友军的跳弹擦过腿边，然后笑着说，如果真被打死了，当地士兵都不知道该怎么跟医院解释这具外国人的尸体。
这些荒诞叙事底下，藏着他对于一项小众运动最认真的改造实验。
先把镜头拉回哈萨克斯坦：一场马背上的疯狂冒险
故事的起点在哈萨克斯坦，不在乌克兰。
琼斯和摄制组在中亚拍一档旅行纪录片，撞上了当地一项古老运动，叫「科克博鲁」（Kok boru）。规则大致是这样：把一头羊或山羊的头和四肢砍掉，用它的躯干当作「球」，最多上千名骑手骑着马在场上疯狂争抢，谁把这具动物尸体丢进对方球门就算赢。老式的球门是水泥做成的，现在简化成标记。当地富商会为获胜者开出巨额奖金。骑手和马都是从很小的时候开始专业训练。
琼斯从没骑过马。摄制组原本只想拍一段「看起来像要进马场」的镜头，结果那个喝过酒的替身演员在接过马缰的时候，直接把他送进了马群。他穿着 Biggie Smalls 那种鲜艳的 COOGI 花纹毛衣，在一群愤怒的哈萨克骑手中间显得格外扎眼。有人认出了他，开始喊「波拉特」（Borat）。那部 2006 年的电影至今在哈萨克斯坦是一段创伤记忆。
他当时的确没在讲波拉特的笑话，但他承认自己那套幽默方式确实容易被这样联想。这群骑手显然不太喜欢一个外国人跑来参加他们从小训练的比赛，那笔奖金对他们意义重大；而马群互相撞击的瞬间，他感受到了一种非常具体的危险。
拍完这一段，他们准备换个地方。看着地图，乌克兰就在旁边。琼斯此前收到过在乌克兰办柔术研讨会的邀请，但那是在全面战争爆发之前。他说，走，我们去那儿做一场慈善活动，和当地的人一起训练，真正亲眼看看那边在发生什么。
七百米，是距离前线最近的一次
他们最终办成了乌克兰历史上规模最大的一场柔术研讨会。在战争状态下办成这件事，琼斯自己都觉得不可思议。
研讨会结束后，一位正在前线服役的士兵兼朋友问他：这本来是把收益捐给士兵的活动，可我们人就在前线，你要不要来看看？这位朋友的原话是：我不能保证你能活着回来，但我能保证你会玩得开心。琼斯的回答是：「这就是我需要听到的全部。」
他们去了。离前线最近的地方是七百米。
琼斯描述在乌克兰最日常的一件事：你会在手机上下载一个防空警报 App。任何时候都可能响起，可能是无人机飞过来了，可能有战机升空，可能有导弹正在飞。导弹还会中途改变方向，所以警报响起来的时候，你根本不知道它到底是不是冲你来的。警报照发，所有人照常被提醒。整个国家就是这么一种状态：你生活在一个持续的恐惧之下，同时又必须继续过正常的生活。
第一次旅行中，最震动的时刻发生在基辅一家酒店的健身房里。琼斯正在那儿练器械，一枚高超音速导弹被爱国者防御系统击落，坠落点离酒店只有大约五分钟路程。整栋楼和连着楼体的健身房都在剧烈摇晃。一部分人开始惊慌，大多数人跑到外面去看发生了什么，尽管那并不是被建议的做法。
事后，当地士兵带他去看了其中一个弹片落点：地面上留下一个巨大的凹坑，主要碎片已经被清理掉。琼斯说他不知道这合不合法，但他还是偷偷带走了一小块导弹残骸。他到现在都不记得扔哪儿了，但当时想着这玩意儿可能触发机场安检警报，还是照拿不误。
关于爱国者系统，他讲了一句挺重的话：「那一刻我脑子里想的是，看看它击落的是什么。万一没有它，会是什么样？」那段时间美国国会还没有通过新一轮对乌援助，所有人都在心里盘算同一个问题：这些防空导弹什么时候会打完？
真正让他成为网络攻击靶子的，是他在基辅拍的那段视频。评论区出现了大量指控：「你被乌克兰政府收买了。」琼斯的反应是，人们不明白生活必须继续。基辅大部分时候是正常的，前线很远，城市如果不努力照常运转，那些村庄和城市里的生活就真的会停止。
莱克斯在对话中补了一句，这不是基辅独有的现象。哈尔科夫、顿涅茨克，甚至克拉马托尔斯克，人们都会很快适应战争。人无法长时间忍受痛苦，所以会自动调整，并开始珍惜自己仍然拥有的东西。
切尔诺贝利：一个不宜前往的地方是如何被撬开的
如果说前线还算「可以理解的冒险」，那去切尔诺贝利就完全是另一个性质的事了。
琼斯说，战争初期俄军有部队从白俄罗斯方向穿过切尔诺贝利，那段时间全世界都在担心辐射泄漏。如今俄军撤回，但切尔诺贝利周边几乎被地雷铺满。以游客身份，或者说以他这种「白痴身份」，本来根本不该出现在那种地方。
他去了。过程是：四个人，两个安全岗哨，失败一次，才最终成功。
第一次尝试由一个特种部队出身的朋友带着，闯过了两道检查站，第三道被拦下来，直接被威胁逮捕。琼斯说那次拦截完全正当，他们本来就没有任何理由去那里。第二次，一位他不愿透露姓名的联系人出手了。这位联系人听说了他的慈善活动，帮忙打通了渠道。最终他们进入切尔诺贝利，当然带着一堆拍摄限制，因为切尔诺贝利曾经的军事冲突仍然是个敏感话题。
他描述那个地方：完全的荒芜。曾经切尔诺贝利在旅游时代是有团的，会挤满游客，但他们得到的是私人导览，所以那种废弃感是真实的、完整的。琼斯对切尔诺贝利的兴趣源头挺有时代感：使命召唤，加上 HBO 那部《切尔诺贝利》剧集和一堆纪录片。
莱克斯提到乌克兰如今有一个更黑暗的雷区问题：战争结束后，几十年的排雷工作依然是个巨大难题。琼斯补上一句更具体的判断：如果一个区域一旦触发地雷就可能导致辐射泄漏，那它在排雷优先级列表上的位置一定会非常靠后。切尔诺贝利的旅游时代，不知道要等到什么时候才能回来。
赫尔松：五百米外的爆炸，和那个把头盔扔回皮卡后座的人
第二次去乌克兰，琼斯走得更深。
他们先去了敖德萨，那是一座被反复袭击的城市。拍摄素材里有一段让他印象深刻的画面：黄昏时分，一位中年男人穿着内裤、挺着啤酒肚，在海边跳一种奇怪的舞蹈。琼斯形容那画面「刺眼，但我欣赏它」。
这趟行程里更硬核的部分，是一位当地警察局长亲自邀请他去赫尔松。局长的原话是：如果你想看真正的激烈场面，我可以亲自陪你去赫尔松。
琼斯做了个决定：他没有对摄影师说实话。他告诉摄影师这是一趟安全行程，好让摄影师转告未婚妻时，对方不会担心。
结果如何？
他们长途南下，中途在一个城市换乘装甲车。来接他们的人开玩笑说：「给我一个能帮你收尸的人的电话号码吧。」琼斯说，那语气是在开玩笑，但他觉得对方是认真的。琼斯的回应是：不用了，真被击中大概也剩不下什么可收的。
赫尔松战前人口约二十五万，如今降到五万左右，大部分是军人。他们去了当地警局，那栋楼的上半部分已经被摧毁，办公搬到了地下掩体。然后一位当地人带他们做城市导览。当然，有拍摄限制：任何最近被毁的建筑画面都不能流出，因为那会帮助对方校准下一发炮弹的落点。赫尔松几乎在所有俄军武器的射程之内，无人机、炮弹、导弹，全都够得着。
出发前，那个人做了一件事：在车顶装上反无人机装置，看着就不怎么让人放心。然后他从后备箱里拿出一个头盔。琼斯以为那是给他的，结果对方把头盔往后斗里一扔，说：「你不需要这个，反正你也会死。」
琼斯当时的内心活动是：「我刚做出来的人生决定真棒。」
他们沿着第聂伯河开，最近处离前线一公里。就在这时，他们听到炮击。琼斯说，坐在装甲车里，声音被车体隔绝，听起来比实际距离远。他们看到远处有烟，但看起来还很远。司机把车开到一栋大楼的背角，避开可能的弹道。琼斯以为一切安全。然后又是两发，落得很近，声音非常大。司机开始用无线电确认路况，接着他们全速撤离。琼斯说，他是在司机猛踩油门、开始做规避动作的那一刻，才真正意识到自己身处危险。
事后翻译告诉他：那轮炮击造成一人死亡、数人受伤，落点离他们不到五百米。无线电里的指令是：结束行程，立即返回警局。
一把火箭筒和一辆拉达，构成了本次采访最荒诞的营销
关于这段乌克兰之行，还有一个必须讲的段落：他们是怎么用战争现场来做比赛营销的。
琼斯搞到了一辆苏联时代的拉达（Lada），把它拖到靶场，车身上刷满了对手赛事 ADCC 的 logo，然后用火箭筒对着它开火。他说这是一次「非常有创意，也非常危险的营销活动」，顺带调侃一句，可口可乐和百事应该不会这么干。
细节是：他们先用火箭弹打，有一枚卡在车底没爆，随时可能被触发。他们得想办法让车烧起来，好拍到「对手赛事的 logo 在燃烧」这个镜头。先是往车上浇汽油，对着油箱开枪，没成功。后来把一个浸了汽油的布条点着，从被炸开的后车窗扔进去。扔完之后两人往远处跑，那个特种部队的朋友突然喊停：「等等，没炸。」他们又靠回去继续点火。等他们再往车走的时候，车子突然轰然着火。朋友喊：「跑，跑，跑。」
然后是更危险的桥段。他们跟靶场的人说好，留出大约十分钟让他们在燃烧的车前拍照。结果要么是对方没等满十分钟，要么是他们自己超时了，靶场开始射击其他靶，子弹的跳弹从头顶飞过，其中一颗落在琼斯腿边。他说：「行吧，撤。」
回头看这一幕，琼斯注意到当地士兵事后说的一句更冷的话：「兄弟，你要是被打了，我们只能把尸体丢到医院，根本没法解释你为什么在这儿炸车。」
战争教会他的事：士兵不是另一个物种
莱克斯问他，亲眼看到战争之后，这些经历改变了他什么。
这是这次采访里最不耍嘴皮子的段落之一。
他说，过去自己会不自觉地把军人想成「某种不同的人」。在乌克兰真正交谈之后，这个距离感被摧毁了。他的朋友罗曼（Roman），八年没在乌克兰生活，人在法国，有妻子、有女儿，生活安稳。战争爆发后，罗曼自愿回国，为的是保护仍留在乌克兰的母亲和弟弟。
琼斯说，澳大利亚和美国现在没有强制征兵，那边的人看战争的方式完全不同。乌克兰有大量被征召的普通士兵，他们就是日常生活里的普通人，只是被塞进了一个疯狂的处境里。像罗曼这样主动回去的，出于一种他很难从澳大利亚视角理解的责任感：俄罗斯军队已经在国境之内，保护家人和土地成了某种不可能逃避的义务。
关于士气，他给的画面并不乐观。有「战斗疲劳」，也有士兵们自己说的那句话：所有英雄都死得早。真正愿意牺牲自己的人，往往是最先被带走的。他们对战争长度的判断是：前线移动两百米可能需要六个月。感觉这场仗会一直打下去。
另一面更让他震动：当乌军截获俄军无线电通讯时，会发现有些俄军士兵知道自己正在被派往某个必死的位置，无线电里说得清清楚楚，但他们还是向乌军阵地走过去。这种场面让他想起二战的描述，士兵被源源不断送上去。他也看到过大量士兵自己拍的第一人称战壕画面，很多不会流到互联网上，因为里面有重要的战术细节。
关于装备自筹，他描述得很具体：美国提供武器，从老式苏联装备到美制装备都有。到了个体士兵层面，如果你想要好一点的装备，那可能就是能不能熬过这个冬天或者夏天的区别。这些钱他们得自己想办法。所以你会看到大量士兵在社交媒体上经营账号，通过涨粉来给营队募捐。这在同时还是心理战，私密的 Telegram 群组里双方都在展示自己对敌方做了什么、敌方对自己做了什么。
无人机战争：三百万美元的坦克被三百美元的飞行器打掉
莱克斯把话题转到他最关心的技术层面：FPV 无人机。
琼斯给出的细节很具体。一架大约三到五百美元的无人机，碳纤维机身，3D 打印部件，下面挂载不同形式的武器，可以扔破片弹，也可以扔地雷。他听说还有能烧穿车辆和坦克的液体武器，里面的人会被活活熔化。这个描述很残酷，更让他震动的是经济账：一辆三百万美元的俄军坦克，可以被一架三百美元的无人机摧毁。战争变化的速率快得惊人。
他认为乌克兰在「低成本无人机」这个领域是世界领先者。他们没有预算搞那些大型精密无人机，所以 FPV 就成了绝大多数战斗的进行方式。无人机的摄像画面会实时传回，一架自杀式无人机追着人跑，整个过程都有录像。
那位送他无人机的警察局长说过一句话，琼斯反复引用：「炮击很可怕，但无人机会追着你进到建筑物里。」
莱克斯从更长远的技术路径延伸了这段讨论：现在所有 FPV 无人机都是人操控的，但防守无人机最有效的方式，是让 AI 来控制无人机。用 AI 指挥一群五百美元级别的无人机蜂群，技术上完全可行。他提到那些无人机灯光秀，飞行控制本来就是自主完成的，只是编排是硬编码的。在这个基础上叠加智能，让无人机能识别另一架无人机、跟踪它、自我防御，战场就会变成双方 AI 无人机群的对决。谁先掌握这项技术，谁就获得军事优势。接着双方都有了这项技术，一群对杀人毫不在意、看见什么杀什么的自主无人机在互相厮杀。莱克斯说，这是最让他恐惧的可能性，尤其是把时间轴拉到十年、二十年、三十年后看。
琼斯补充了一个战场观察：赫尔松的天空几乎全是无人机。它们可以在空中等待很久，等你从建筑物里出来。如果窗户开着，它们可以直接飞进去。室内的安全也靠不住，没有地方可藏，它们可以等非常长的时间。
还有一个细节挺让人不安：乌克兰有营队把短航程的 FPV 无人机挂到更大的无人机上，加装信号增强器，打击距离能延伸到三十到四十公里。击中你的无人机，操作者可能在很远很远之外。这套玩法如果被用在非战场环境，比如针对某个公众人物，追查来源会极其困难。
琼斯提到特朗普遇刺未遂事件时说了句：「我当时想，下一个针对公众人物的袭击，可能就会以无人机的形式出现。」莱克斯接过话头：如果真发生那种事，后果的疯狂程度很难想象。人们对「一个持枪的人射杀目标」有既定理解框架，一架无人机呢？谁在操控？从哪里起飞？阴谋论会瞬间爆炸。
被战争重塑的日常：那个被无人机声音触发的人
有一个画面琼斯描述得特别真实。
他和罗曼在乌克兰西部城市莫尔申（Morshyn）。罗曼因为是自愿入伍，获准短暂离境。两人在海边，有游客在放无人机。罗曼听到那个声音的瞬间，身体本能地做出反应，那是战场条件反射的回闪。
战争留下的痕迹就长在这里。它不在新闻里，不在战报里，在一个人的神经系统里。
然后他飞回美国，去办一场两百万美元的比赛
如果说前半段访谈是关于战争与人性，后半段就是关于一项运动如何被一个人用最不讲规矩的方式推着往前走。
CJI，全称 Craig Jones Invitational，2024 年 8 月 16 日和 17 日在拉斯维加斯托马斯·马克中心举行。总预算三百万美元。两个重量级别，两场超级战。每个级别的冠军拿一百万美元。所有参赛选手出场费一万零一美元，外加一个「+1」名额。免费直播，YouTube、X、Meta 全平台同步。门票收入全部捐给慈善机构，主要是癌症研究。
它的举办日期，和柔术界历史最悠久、最有声望的 ADCC 完全重叠。
起因特别琼斯。今年早些时候，很多粉丝问他：你去不去打 ADCC？他的回答是：备战一场大概率会输的比赛，需要投入大量时间、精力，还有「加了类固醇的」花费。如果第一天就输，收入是零。如果打进决赛，他进过几次，收入是六千美元。第三名三千，第四名一千。也就是说，只有打进第二天才有钱拿。而 2022 年那届 ADCC，他站在场上，看到的是售罄的一万名观众，赛事在 FloGrappling 平台付费直播，流媒体版权卖了多少钱他不清楚，但肯定不少。然后他回家，带着六千美元。官方的说法是：你得到了曝光。琼斯的回应是：曝光的方式有很多种，这只是其中一个平台。
更让他介意的是，ADCC 宣布比赛场地从托马斯·马克中心搬到 T-Mobile 竞技场。座位数从一万一涨到一万五六，场馆升级了，运动员的奖金一分没涨。琼斯说他能通过自己的教学视频销量追踪这项运动的增长，因为买这些产品的主要是白带和蓝带，也就是最容易被网络营销打动的那批人，而这批人正是看 ADCC 这类赛事的主力观众。
于是他录了一个视频，说不打了，顺便列了一堆奖金更高的运动，包括哈萨克斯坦的科克博鲁，村庄级别的比赛奖金都比这高。
回应来了。不是来自 Sheikh Tahnoun 那边的人，而是来自现在实际运营 ADCC 的人。在夹杂着死亡威胁的回复里，对方说：「T-Mobile 场馆要两百万美元，你根本不懂商业和制作。」琼斯承认对方可能说得对，他的判断是：两百万美元砸在一场柔术赛事的场馆上，纯属浪费。那是 UFC 办赛的级别，柔术还没到那个阶段。
两人在网上吵了几句。对方说：你要是不满意，你自己去搞两百万办一场啊。
琼斯说：我可能真会。
然后他真的办了。一位不愿透露姓名的朋友给了三百万美元预算。琼斯在赛前给这位投资人发消息说，我们不会公开你的身份。原因很简单：任何有钱人一旦曝光，就会被人要钱，或者被人要更多钱。这位投资人唯一的诉求是：享受这种挑衅的乐趣，同时为柔术这项运动做点贡献。
他们找到了托马斯·马克中心，也就是 ADCC 原来的场地，恰好同一个周末还空着。
接下来的操作是这一整套叙事里最有意思的部分。琼斯说：「ADCC 给冠军一万美元，那我们给所有出场选手一万零一美元。来我们这儿露个面，拿的比赢 ADCC 还多。而且我们免费直播。」
当奖金撞上奖金：女子组奖金是怎么被拉平的
琼斯用了个很微妙的措辞：「以下内容，出于法律原因，我要说『据称』。」
据他的说法，CJI 公布之后，ADCC 做的第一件事，是把女子组奖金拉平到和男子组一样。此前女子冠军奖金是六千美元左右。CJI 一宣布 Ffion Davies，也就是当时的女子冠军，要来打超级战，ADCC 立刻把女子奖金提到了和男子相同的水平。琼斯自嘲说，他作为一个「多年来的女权主义活动家」，就这样顺手把柔术界的女子奖金拉平了。而那位赛事运营者此前一直说，奖金不是他能决定的，只有 Sheikh 那边能决定，结果他一夜之间就做到了。
第二件事，据称是开始给运动员发「出场费」。琼斯说这在 ADCC 历史上从没发生过，现在为了留住运动员，他们开始这么做了。
他特别提到一个巴西经纪人，形容对方长得像神奇四侠里的那个角色，抽成比例是 20%。这位经纪人的操作方式是：琼斯邀请某位运动员，他就跑去 ADCC 说，你愿意出什么价留住他？用 CJI 的报价去谈更高的出场费，然后自己抽走两成。CJI 这边，所有人一万零一美元，冠军一百万美元，统一规则，没有谈判空间。所以这位经纪人有充分的动机把人往 ADCC 送。
琼斯看来，这件事对柔术整体是好事。CJI 从 ADCC 那里「偷」或者「借」了一批运动员，ADCC 必须填满自己的级别，于是很多原本没有机会打 ADCC 的选手得到了位置。
两个赛事的日程其实可以错开观看：CJI 是周五周六，ADCC 是周六周日，CJI 周六的比赛下午五点才开始。琼斯说得很直白：所谓「逼粉丝二选一」本身就是一个营销策略，实际上你可以两天都看。他还顺带吐槽了 ADCC 的名人堂演讲环节：你会听到各种关于苦难的故事，就像每场柔术研讨会的开场或结尾一样，一位黑带可能会给你讲四十五分钟他如何比医生和律师更懂人生，会讲狮子，会讲做一只谦逊的狮子。你周五看我们，周六看 ADCC，晚上回来看我摔一个巨大的女人。
Gabi Garcia、一个赌约和「三年追求」
这场超级战是 CJI 最出圈的噱头。对手是 Gabi Garcia，女子缠斗史上最传奇的人物之一，身高大约一米九，体重在 220 到 275 磅之间浮动。琼斯当时 179 磅，身高一米八。他形容两人合起来大概有十五到二十个世界冠军头衔，区别是那些冠军都在对方那边。
关于这场比赛的赌约，是采访里最荒诞的段落之一。琼斯说：如果她赢，我个人给她一百万美元。如果我能用足锁降服她，我们合作拍一部 OnlyFans 的性爱录像。莱克斯问：她同意了吗？琼斯说：她握手了。
莱克斯顺势问他是不是正在慢慢爱上对方。琼斯的回答是：「这是三年的引诱，很长时间了。」他说这对那些在 Instagram 上给女孩发了好几年私信的男性是个励志故事：也许三年之后，你也有可能。不管对方的身高体重，坚持是关键。
这段对话当然是玩笑，玩笑的密度和节奏本身就是琼斯的武器。莱克斯在采访里多次点出这件事：他的调侃底下有真实的尊重，他攻击的对象必须「值得被攻击」。琼斯自己的解释是：你需要一个配得上的对手。口才比你好的人不行，那样你会输；得挑那种本身知名度足够高、攻击起来不会显得你只是在欺负弱者的人。
「巷道」：一个为缠斗重新设计的竞技场
CJI 在规则和场地上的创新，是这次访谈里技术含量最高的部分。
场地叫「巷道」（The Alley），灵感来自空手道格斗（Karate Combat）的斜墙擂台。区别是空手道格斗用的是方形坑，CJI 用的是长方形。
斜墙对缠斗为什么特别重要？所有缠斗赛事最烦人的环节之一，就是「复位」。裁判把选手拉回场地中央，重新摆一个大致接近的位置。他举了个例子：一场十分钟的比赛里，可能有九十秒是裁判在拉人、复位、尝试还原一个已经滚出界外的位置。有些特别油滑的选手会专门利用这一点，在边界附近打边缘防守，或者专门在边界发动抱摔，逼裁判中断。琼斯说，这种事在他自己身上也发生过，裁判喊停，他已经停了，对方又多挪了一点，然后复位的位置有偏差。他说这某种意义上算作弊，更多是烦人。
斜墙能缓解这个问题。被推到斜墙边上是劣势，很容易被摔倒。为什么不用八角笼？笼边摔跤可以很慢，垂直的笼网容易让场面停滞，选手非常擅长用分腿蹲防住那个位置。他个人也不喜欢笼子用在缠斗上，他想让缠斗和 MMA 有视觉区分。
别人不做坑式擂台，卡点在观赛视角。如果你买的是 VIP 或者高价票，斜墙在你上方，你看不到里面。笼子可以看进去，高台擂台也可以，因为它是平的，但选手可能摔下台，摔到水泥地上。琼斯说，UFC 那种高台加围栏的设计，靠近边缘本身就很吓人，你要是想的话，也可以把对手推下去。斜墙解决了所有这些问题，同时最大限度减少裁判干扰。唯一的阻碍是建造成本。
「但你花的是别人的钱的时候，制作上是不会省钱的。」琼斯这句自嘲很到位。他们花大价钱建了「巷道」，把周围看台架高，让观众能俯视进去，做出了一种小型斗兽场的效果。
在斜面上怎么打柔术，琼斯承认自己也不懂。他打过两场空手道格斗，从没踏进过那个坑。「如果有正确的做法，我大概会选反着来。」他说有些参赛选手已经自己搭了斜面墙在家练，这是聪明的做法，一百万美元在眼前，该投资。
另一个创新是回合制。资格赛三个五分钟回合，决赛五个五分钟回合。目的在激励进攻。琼斯不喜欢那种「早早拿到后背，然后坐着耗到结束」的比赛。很多不比赛的人意识不到这一点：如果你早早拿到一个好位置、点数领先，最理性的策略就是稳住，坐等终场。回合制会改变这个激励结构：你拿到后背，脑子里必须想着终结，因为每一回合都要重新开始计分，而且没有第二名奖金，你不拿第一就是输。
他们还借用了 MMA 的十分制打分体系。琼斯承认很多人批评这套体系太复杂，
他们还借用了 MMA 的十分制打分体系。琼斯承认很多人批评这套体系太复杂，观众看不懂，但对大众观众来说，回合制打分是他们熟悉的东西，UFC 就是这么打的，谁赢下这一回合，观众看得明白。再加上对拖延行为的严厉处罚，整套设计围绕一个核心：让选手想尽快终结对手。
他还提了一句挺实在的话：如果不是第一个撞线，就等于输了。CJI 不设第二名奖金，所有选手出场费一样，冠军独吞一百万美元。这个结构逼着人往前冲，也把「稳稳守住一个位置磨到结束」这条退路直接堵死了。
为什么免费直播：一场关于「增长」的公开实验
琼斯对「如何推广一项运动」有一套完整的逻辑，这套逻辑是从单口喜剧那行借来的。
他的判断是，那位 ADCC 运营者声称自己的目标是发展这项运动，做法却是把比赛放在付费墙后面，用付费收入去买更贵的场馆。在琼斯看来，这算不上增长，只是在消耗存量。
他的参照系是 Mark Normand 和 Andrew Schulz。这两个人免费放出自己的专场，观众规模暴涨，然后商业机会跟着来。琼斯的推理很简单：柔术现在需要一场精彩的、不在付费墙后面的比赛，把观众池做起来，做到一定规模之后再谈付费。现在就谈付费，时机根本不到。
他甚至拒绝了几家流媒体平台购买版权的报价。原因很直接：营销效果太好了，他要保留免费播出这张牌。
还有一个更实际的动机，是数据透明度。在 FloGrappling 或 UFC Fight Pass 上看比赛，除非是付费点播，你永远不会知道有多少人看了。这意味着运动员在谈赞助的时候手里没有筹码。CJI 免费播出之后，每位参赛选手都能看到自己出场时的观看量曲线，可以拿着这份数据去谈商业合作。琼斯那番话的意思很清楚：把权力从赛事方手里拿回来，交还给运动员。
莱克斯顺着这个逻辑谈到了国际奥委会。他说奥运会是另一种极端：一个组织办出了不可思议的赛事，运作却完全不透明，运动员几乎拿不到钱，收入来自赞助和转播权分销，大部分内容在赛后被付费墙锁住。他做过一期和柔道运动员的对话，在播客里放了一小段比赛画面，奥委会的频道立刻发出版权警告。那些视频全被上传成私密状态，不公开，也不容易购买观看。莱克斯说，奥运会的核心精神就是让所有人可以观看，付费墙本身违背了奥运精神。他觉得 ADCC 这类赛事也应该开放给所有人，在所有平台上都能看到。
关于慈善，琼斯说这届比赛是非营利性质，他自己不赚钱，门票收入全部捐出。预算三百万，扣掉制作成本和团队开支，如果能卖光，能捐出一大笔。其中一个受益机构是 Tap Cancer Out。创始人 Rich Byrne 是纽约的一位黑带，在金融界工作，曾经办过 KASAI Grappling 赛事，自己得过侵袭性癌症，治愈之后主动提出：你们从这届赛事利润里捐多少，我一比一配捐。另有一位匿名人士也承诺一比一配捐。所以门票卖得越多，捐出去的钱越多，每一张票的边际价值都被放大了。
梅雷加利、戈登·瑞安和一场没法定价的执念
关于 Nicholas Meregali，琼斯讲了一段完整的竞技史。
两人的渊源比大多数人知道的更早。琼斯还穿道服比赛的时候，去阿布扎比世界职业赛打无差别级，一路打进半决赛，被 Meregali 在道服规则下碾压。他唯一愿意反复分享的片段是：Meregali 过了他的防守，他从侧面控制位置完成了一次反转。之后他被扫倒、被降服。
多年后琼斯离开 Danaher 团队，Meregali 顶替了他的位置。琼斯形容这个替代者「更有资历、更帅、口才不如我」。两人在 ADCC 交手，琼斯选了更重的级别，因为想给两个队友让出 88 公斤级的位置，结果那两个队友第一轮就都输了。他自己在第二天开局对上 Meregali，开场三分钟疯狂攻击腿，完成扫倒，抢到上位，在得分期开始前没有点数。但他体力耗尽，Meregali 是自然体重就在 225 到 230 磅的大块头。那场琼斯判定获胜，然后在决赛输掉。
之后两人原本约好再打一场，价格谈好了，琼斯签了。Meregali 选择去度假，比赛取消。后来 Flo 又来问档期，琼斯说二月不行，他要帮沃尔卡诺夫斯基（Volkanovski）备战。Flo 的建议是：先宣布，卖票，造势，然后你退赛。琼斯说行，你们想怎么搞怎么搞。
现在再提这场比赛，琼斯的报价是五十万美元。「否则我懒得动。」理由落在别处：「梅雷加利是个非常严肃的人，他谈真实性，谈一些他自己都不懂的词。对我来说，给他一个活在『自己上次赢了我』这种幻觉里的机会，很难定价。人们说这不是钱的问题，确实不是钱的问题。是我每天早上醒来，知道他知道自己输给过我。」
关于和 Gordon Ryan 的关系，琼斯的回答是：我觉得我们会和好。他说 MDMA 最早是 70 年代休斯顿的伴侣治疗药物，他和 Gordon 大概需要类似的疗程。莱克斯说 Reddit 网友建议他试试氯胺酮治疗。琼斯说，你让一位治疗师坐下来和他谈，对方得先把接下来几周的日程全部清空。他也提到自己确实有个「治疗师」，在某个俄罗斯网站上给他开了 Vyvanse。莱克斯立刻接梗：那不是治疗师，只是拼写相同的另一种东西。
琼斯说他觉得和 Gordon 来一场某种形式的辩论会很精彩，比如他代表卡玛拉·哈里斯，Gordon 代表唐纳德·特朗普，一场智力层面的对打。这个提议当然是玩笑，它精准地暴露了琼斯对「冲突」的理解：冲突的目标不在分出谁更强，冲突是要把两个人身上最有意思的部分逼出来，让围观的人看得过瘾。
从白带到珊瑚带：一条嘴炮的成长史
Reddit 上有人评价琼斯是「珊瑚带级别的挑衅者，只是恰好柔术也很好」。莱克斯把这个评价转述给他，问他从白带到黑带到珊瑚带，这条路是怎么走过来的。
琼斯的回答把源头指向了澳大利亚的日常文化。他说在澳洲，人们每天说的话，放在别的国家可能是难以想象的冒犯。大家互相拆台，目的就是毁掉对方这一天。整个过程是漫不经心的，来回过招。真正的胜利标志是什么？是对方真的被惹恼了，开始说些狠话。那一刻你会说：哦，我们抓到你了，这事儿真的戳到你了，这一局算我们赢。
所以当一个澳大利亚人进入美国的玩笑语境，琼斯的形容是：「像 Neo 得到了黑客帝国的技能，你能看见所有东西飞过来。」他说美国人有时候把自己看得太严肃了，这就构成了一批「可以被拿下的受害者」。
莱克斯问他会不会在镜子前后悔自己某次下手太重。琼斯说不会。他给自己的定位是提供一种平衡，像是在执行某种正义，而且他也清楚，「这一切大概率会加倍的还回来」。
莱克斯在这里说了一句挺关键的话：作为粉丝，他能看到调侃底下的爱，那些攻击看起来总是好玩的。琼斯回了一句自嘲：「我希望你能把这份爱买回来，但它已经买不回来了。」
关于他和 ADCC 组织者 Mo 的关系，琼斯描述为「爱恨交织」。两人曾经是关系很近的朋友，Mo 在 Danaher 团队搬到波多黎各这件事上起过关键作用。关系变质的节点，是琼斯开始公开谈运动员报酬。在琼斯看来，一个同时是 ADCC 参赛者、又实际掌控赛事运营的人，某种意义上就是你的老板，这种结构会让友谊变得复杂。
他曾经公开邀请 Mo 上一档播客，把分歧讲清楚。琼斯的逻辑是：如果我觉得运动员该拿更多钱是白痴想法，你当着我的面、当着整个缠斗世界的面告诉我。他说他个人相信透明，如果你对自己做出的商业决策有信心，就不存在什么「被抓到把柄」的时刻。Mo 没有接受这个邀请。
琼斯自己算了笔账：托马斯·马克中心他理解的价格是二十万美元，T-Mobile 是两百万美元。场馆成本涨了一百八十万，运动员奖金零增长，这笔账怎么解释？他强调自己从没认为这个组织在偷钱，他的原话是「通往地狱的路是由善意铺成的」，Mo 可能真心认为自己在做的事能发展这项运动，只是路径完全不同。
扎克伯格、沃尔卡诺夫斯基和「拼图垫」
话题转到马克·扎克伯格（Mark Zuckerberg）。琼斯说两人只在沃尔卡诺夫斯基对伊利亚那场比赛时见过，简单聊过几句。他对扎克伯格的评价是：有趣的人，真的热爱柔术，热爱 MMA，而且看起来是认真打算参加比赛的。莱克斯补充说扎克伯格有初学者心态，在这件事上很谦逊。琼斯说 CJI 当然想请他，但他刚做完前交叉韧带手术，八月才恢复运动，很快会重新开始训练。
关于亚历山大·沃尔卡诺夫斯基（Alexander Volkanovski），琼斯的描述里带着很明显的敬意。最有意思的是沃尔卡诺夫斯基的出身：你对 UFC 冠军会有一套预设印象，但沃尔卡诺夫斯基在一个海边小城的小馆子里训练，地垫是那种拼接的泡沫垫。不是 American Top Team，不是任何一家大型拳馆。这件事本身说明，在一个相对孤立的环境里，靠刻苦和自我教育能达到什么高度。琼斯说，在他看来，沃尔卡诺夫斯基大概是有史以来最强的羽量级选手，从橄榄球背景转过来，起步很晚。
技术层面，琼斯说自己从他身上学到不少缠斗交换中的东西，怎么站起来，当然还有笼边摔跤。训练强度上，两人几乎是相反的极端。琼斯形容沃尔卡诺夫斯基的体能训练「完全疯狂」，而他看过几次沃尔卡诺夫斯基减重，那画面很难看：运动员眼睛都快翻过去了，还在硬撑，还在说这很轻松。琼斯说，看着朋友经历这个过程是很煎熬的。
还有一个细节他讲得很动人：比赛前五分钟，沃尔卡诺夫斯基会从完全放松的状态切换过来，开始说「你永远无法把这个腰带从我的家人身边夺走」。他在想他的孩子。琼斯说，你能看到一个人的人格在那几分钟里发生形变。
至于沃尔卡诺夫斯基怎么处理失败，琼斯说他不知道。两人不怎么聊这个层面，更多是朋友式的问候，你最近怎么样，接下来打算做什么。他透露他们曾试图安排一场沃尔卡诺夫斯基对 Mikey Musumeci 的缠斗赛，放在 CJI，最后没成。原因他不肯说，只说「本来会很精彩」。
莱克斯追问那场对马哈切夫的比赛，琼斯觉得沃尔卡诺夫斯基能赢。「第一场就证明了他能打赢，至少证明了这是可能的。」他说第二场里沃尔卡诺夫斯基在缠斗交换中完成反转，他希望他能尝试主动抱摔马哈切夫。琼斯认为沃尔卡诺夫斯基相对马哈切夫有巨大的力量优势，笼边摔跤也占优，「你也许看不到那些漂亮的技术过肩摔，但我相信沃尔卡诺夫斯基是世界上最好的笼边摔跤手之一，或者就是最好的。」
关于达吉斯坦选手为什么强，琼斯的观察是：他们就是热爱，训练方式本身就是一场殊死搏斗，一寸都不肯让。这在 MMA 和摔跤里极其有效。但到了纯柔术赛场，他们容易被腿锁，容易掉进陷阱，过度激进或者过度回避。琼斯说，他们那种研磨式的训练用于把对手压到墙边、摔倒、地面控制，非常完美。你一把我摔倒、贴上来，我就进入你的世界了。可我要是躺在地上，你站着必须进来，那所有危险都在你的距离之外。
莱克斯顺势问他，对上马哈切夫这种级别的会怎样。琼斯答：「buggy choke，稳的。」莱克斯笑说他在开玩笑。琼斯说他是认真的一半，还讲了个故事：他最近遇到一位从鞑靼斯坦来的俄罗斯选手，buggy choke 做不进去，只好在比赛最后用三角把对方弄睡了两次。他说东欧那帮人，真的把比赛当实战在打。
莱克斯问他理想中的柔术演进方向。琼斯说，最让他兴奋的方向是摔跤和柔术的融合，基本上是自由式摔跤加站立降服。规则的核心应该是：永远争取在上位，无论是一个能带来翻转的降服，还是一个翻转本身；同时避免被压制。只要比赛围绕这个逻辑运转，选手在站立上主动进攻，那就是最好看、最激动人心的柔术。
莱克斯说他也是这样觉得，两个人都在摔、在争夺上位的那一刻，那才像打架，不像躺着玩防守。琼斯同意，但他很诚实地说，如果对手摔跤比他强，他就会放弃站立，直接躺下。「这就是难的地方。」莱克斯说，那你就会被全场观众嘲笑到死，这是你应得的。琼斯接住这个梗：那百万奖金应该这样发，发给最敢冒险、最精彩的那个人。他说得半真半假，但背后那个判断是认真的：在这个时代，社交媒体上的名声甚至比奖牌更重要，你拖时间，你会变成梗，会被记住的是这个。
关于类固醇：一笔没人能算清的账
莱克斯问了个直接的问题：你觉得多大比例的选手在用类固醇？是不是百分之百？
琼斯的回答带着典型的两面性：「任何赢过我的人，用的都比我多。」他说他想过测试，目的很单纯，就是为了科学，看看大家到底在用什么。但这件事极难判断，因为有些人练在一起，彼此都不告诉对方自己在用什么。他自己是公开告诉全世界的，结果别人看了反而说：看看你，你就没用类固醇。这个圈子在这件事上神秘得离谱。
莱克斯接过这个话题，说了一个他讨厌的部分：在没有数据的情况下指控别人用类固醇，本质上是一种绕开证据说对方作弊的方式。而他更愿意庆祝人，有些人确实没在用，确实没作弊，就是真的强。
琼斯说这是自我保护机制：你宁愿假设那个人用了药，也不愿意接受他的基因远在你之上。
给新手的建议：不受伤地活过第一年
莱克斯请他假设要给一个业余新手当教练，一年时间，怎么练。
琼斯的答案围绕一个词：longevity，长期存活。
第一是选安全的训练伙伴。第二是理解位置，别一被压住就惊慌。惊慌可能让你逃出来，也可能让你卡在某个姿势里把自己弄伤。如果你能找到一种节奏、一种强度、一群对的人，你有可能五年不受伤。关键在你怎么动。如果你永远用爆发式的方式移动，总有一天你会在一个无法移动的位置上爆发，然后某根组织就撕裂了。
他说自己躲过很多伤，原因很简单：他从不以爆发式的、极度运动化的方式滚。他甚至说自己大概没能力以那种速度移动。
这不代表他不进入劣势位置。他会让别人把他放进劣势位置，只是始终保持放松。他说的这句话值得记下来：如果你在劣势位置还能保持冷静，那是一种技能。那种自信的对象不在你自己身上，而在「对方没有能力降服你」这件事上。那是最高级别的自信，你可以把任何位置都给他。
莱克斯补充了自己的观察：很多新手开始呼吸变重、身体绷紧，那底下其实就是恐慌。琼斯认同，并且给出了一个很实用的机制：如果你能让对手恐慌，你就能让他疲劳。哪怕到了更高水平，你担心防守被过，那种恐慌本身就会消耗你的体力。而如果你柔韧性够好、能保持冷静，你就不容易累，因为你不恐慌。
创新是门生意，也是种趣味
莱克斯说琼斯拥有柔术史上最有创造性的比赛体系之一，问他怎么发展出来的。
琼斯的第一个答案很实在：经济动机。如果你能做出别人不知道怎么做的动作，你就能卖教学。第二个答案是趣味：这项运动会变得停滞、无聊。很多人到了蓝带，擅长一件事，就只做那一件事。找到有创意的赢法，本身就是最好玩的部分。
他还提到了一个更深的机制：如果你能让对手进入一个他自己都不理解的位置，那就是他恐慌的地方。
具体的创作方法，他说得很朴素：看录像，反复看，然后逆向工程。如果他和某人训练时出现那种「我完全不知道他在干什么」的瞬间，那就是素材。
至于他最有名的那些东西，他很诚实地表示自己没有发明什么，只是推广了某些东西：特定类型的腿锁入口、章鱼防守（octopus guard）、更多从龟防开始打、以及压制型的技术体系。他说因为自己在网上的那些笑话，他在这个项目里获得了一种话语权，所以当他发布内容时，能带动一个技术或者教学流行起来。他强调自己不想卖不真实的产品，技术必须真的有效。
莱克斯提到他教学产品的命名很有梗，比如「power bottom」，后来被迫改过。琼斯说是 Meta 的广告审核不喜欢那种幽默，所以标题得软化处理。他还补了一句，说是托管平台那边收到的通知。
研讨会上的鲨鱼：为什么你不能随便和陌生人滚垫子
莱克斯问他在世界各地办研讨会的时候，会不会真的和参与者一起练。琼斯说会，这里有个结构性的矛盾。
对参与者来说，这是一生一次的机会，可以和世界级选手过招，验证自己。对他来说，他刚到一个城市，想认识人，想吃点当地的东西，喝两杯，享受这个地方。馆里永远有「狙击手」在围着转。
他的处理方式是：连续滚三十分钟，十个人，每人三分钟，中间不休息。他的应对策略是不施加对抗，让节奏慢下来。如果他用力量对抗力量，他自己会累；如果他完全不给对方预期的阻力，对方的节奏反而会乱，会有点懵。
真有人上来打得很凶，他的处理非常直接：如果我感觉可能受伤，我会百分之百用力做降服。他的逻辑是，你面对一个威胁，就必须用威胁回应。他提到 Ryan Hall 的做法是先警告，警告无效就动手，他认为这完全可以接受。他自己不会无缘无故伤人，但如果你打得很凶，你最好快点点。如果我感到威胁，你必须拍。我不会为了弄断而弄断，如果你做了可能伤到我的动作，而我拿到了一个足跟勾、我又很累，你还在挣扎想脱出来，那你就是自己找的。
莱克斯在这里展示了自己的困惑：他想在全世界和人滚垫子，为了文化交流，为了好玩。如果他用力做降服或者用膝压，对方接收不到这个信号；如果他让人降服自己几次，对方也不会冷静下来。他想找到解法。
琼斯的回答很不留情面：你做不到。只要你有任何知名度，无论是在这项运动里还是作为公众人物，最好的办法就是找三四个信得过的训练伙伴，私下练。以前人们说，你练到这个水平，去全世界任何一家馆都能练。那个时代结束了。现在你一进门，只要你有名字，他们就是来杀你的。训练的本质是信任，信任来自安全的回合。陌生人是可怕的。
莱克斯说自己正在尝试建立一种雷达，看一个人就能判断他是不是危险。琼斯给了个很实用的判断标准：任何穿 Pitbull Sports 防磨服的人，或者任何来自波兰的人，做好准备。他说他从来没有和波兰人有过一场「flow roll」，也就是那种轻柔的、不对抗的滚动。
然后莱克斯念了 Reddit 上的问题：你在东欧弄断了几条腿？琼斯的回答是「三四条」。是为了传递信息还是个人享受？他说他不享受，但事后回想是好笑的。他的原话大意是：兄弟，我倒时差，我很累，我是为你们才来的，你们为什么要伤我？如果我拿到降服，我不会犹豫，一秒都不犹豫。柔术是危险的东西，陌生人会发疯，他们以为自己降服我就能拿到 CJI 的邀请。
「任何东西都可以被拿来开玩笑，只要它够好笑」
访谈接近尾声，莱克斯问了一个稍微大一点的问题：走遍那么多地方，见过那么多人，在人类互相发动战争、互相做出可怕事情的这个世界上，什么让他仍然抱有希望。
琼斯的回答是这整场对话的题眼：
你仍然可以拿任何东西开玩笑，只要它够好笑。这就是我在争取的东西。人们谈论取消文化，我只觉得那个笑话不够好笑，表达不够到位。（克雷格·琼斯）
这句话放在这场访谈的语境里，分量不太一样。因为说这话的人，刚刚讲完他如何在赫尔松听到五百米外的爆炸、如何在切尔诺贝利绕过四道检查站、如何看着一个朋友被天上无人机的声音触发战场回闪。他并不是不知道世界有多沉重。他只是坚持认为，幽默在沉重的对面站着，它证明人还能继续往前走。
莱克斯最后引用了安东尼·波登（Anthony Bourdain）的一段话作为收尾：旅行会改变你。当你穿过这一生和这个世界，你会轻微地改变一些事物，留下痕迹，无论多小；作为回报，生活和旅行也在你身上留下痕迹。
琼斯在访谈里反复提到波登，说他想做的其实是一件很朴素的事：拍一档关于柔术的纪录片旅行系列，不靠比赛，靠人。他的判断是，绝大多数练柔术的人并不比赛，很多棕带黑带连顶级选手的名字都叫不出来。靠竞技永远无法让这项运动变大，得靠吸引那批因为健康和心理收益而练柔术的普通人。
他用了两个类比。第一个是波登怎么把美食文化拍成人：拍的是做菜的人，菜只是入口。第二个是山达基教：「山达基不是从 Xenu 星球开始的，是从约翰·特拉沃尔塔和汤姆·克鲁斯开始的。」柔术也要先有面孔，再有教义。
这档片子叫《Craig Jones: Gone Walkabout》。第一集在巴厘岛，收益的一部分捐给当地一个叫 Akademi Kristus 的柔术馆。那是一位澳大利亚人在巴厘岛贫民区从一棵树下的垫子开始教柔术，靠捐赠慢慢建起了馆。他真正在意的，是教技能：他带那些处境困难的孩子们学图片编辑，让他们能从互联网上接到活。琼斯说起这个人的时候，语气里那种认真藏不住。他还顺带自嘲了一句：作为澳大利亚人，我们在文化上对世界各地造成了不少破坏，我也想还一点回去。
这场实验真正在赌什么
把所有线索串起来看，CJI 这件事的野心比「和 ADCC 抢风头」要大得多。
它同时在测试四件事。
第一，运动员到底值多少钱。当一个赛事愿意把出场费定得比对手的冠军奖金还高，并且公开说「没有第二名奖金，你不拿第一就是输」，它就是在逼整个行业重新回答这个定价问题。
第二，免费直播能不能撑起一项小众运动。琼斯拿单口喜剧当参照系，逻辑是先用零门槛内容把观众池做起来，再谈变现。这条路在喜剧、播客、部分电竞项目上验证过，在格斗类项目上还没有人完整跑通过。
第三，数据要不要还给运动员。免费播出意味着播放量公开，每个选手都能看到自己出场时的曲线。这在商业上是一把双刃剑，对运动员的议价能力是实打实的提升。
第四，赛制设计能不能改变行为。斜墙消除复位、回合制激励终结、重罚拖延，这些设计共同指向同一个目标：用规则结构去改运动员的理性选择，而不靠口号。
这四件事里任何一件成了，柔术的商业生态就会往某个方向挪一点。四件都成了，那就是一次结构性变化。四件都没成，琼斯至少留下了三百万美元的一地鸡毛和一段很好笑的故事，而他大概率会觉得，这也不算太亏。
采访里有一句话他说得很轻，位置却很关键。莱克斯问他怕不怕因为奖金太高，选手反而打得保守。琼斯说：这笔钱是我一位非常慷慨的朋友给的，我跟他们说得很清楚，除非你们上去真想弄死对方、把所有东西都押上，否则我不会再办第二次。
这句话暴露了整件事的脆弱之处。它高度依赖一个人的意志、一个人的钱、一个人的判断，以及一个人愿意被别人讨厌的程度。这算不上制度，属于个性驱动的实验。它能证明一件事是可能的，很难证明一件事是可复制的。
不过话说回来，很多运动的职业化进程，最开始都是这么起来的。
如果你想从这篇文章里拿走点什么
- 看比赛的话，CJI 是免费的，YouTube、X、Meta 都能看，时间是 8 月 16 日到 17 日，拉斯维加斯托马斯·马克中心。ADCC 是 8 月 17 日到 18 日，两场日程并不完全冲突，CJI 周六的比赛下午五点才开始。真想看柔术，两天都能看。
- 如果你在练柔术，先别急着追求强度和成绩。琼斯那句「五年不受伤才叫长期主义」值得贴在馆里。选安全的训练伙伴，保持放松，别用爆发式的动作去过每一个位置。你在劣势位置还能冷静，这才是真正的自信。
- 如果你去世界任何一家馆训练，请把「我是来交流的」写进节奏里。出名的人不需要你证明自己，他们需要的是安全。你上去三分钟全力冲，换来的只会是对方认真做降服。
- 如果你在做任何一个小众领域的内容或商业，琼斯的逻辑可以直接搬：先把门槛拿掉，让观众免费进来，把观众池做起来，再谈变现。同时把数据公开给你的创作者或运动员，让他们能拿这份数据去谈自己的价值。短期少赚的钱，换的是整个生态的议价能力。
- 如果你在组织任何形式的比赛或评比，认真想一次赛制本身在激励什么。你惩罚什么、奖励什么、是否设第二名奖金、如何处理边界和中断，这些细节加起来，比任何一条宣传语都更能决定参与者会怎么打。
- 如果你在做一个带公益属性的项目，把配捐机制设计进去。Tap Cancer Out 那种「你捐多少我配多少」的结构，能让每一张票的边际价值翻倍，也让买票的人知道自己那一份被放大了。
- 最后一条，关于幽默。琼斯对「取消文化」的判断未必人人认同，他提供了一个可操作的检验标准：一个玩笑失败，往往不是因为它触碰了边界，只是因为它不够好笑、表达不到位。想开玩笑之前，先把这句话在心里过一遍。
两千多年前，有人在地中海边上问什么是勇气。今天，一个澳大利亚人给出的答案是：带着一袋现金上别人的播客，跑到离前线七百米的地方看无人机，然后回到拉斯维加斯，把两百万美元摆在一张桌子上，说，来，让我看看你们到底有多想赢。
这件事未必优雅，未必稳妥，也未必成功。它至少证明了一件事：一项运动的命运，有时候握在一个愿意被所有人讨厌、并且真的很好笑的人手里。
I like to match looks from time to time.
我有时喜欢搭配外观。
Thank you.
谢谢。
In an homage.
致敬。
You look sexy.
你看起来很性感。
00:05 How many legs did you break in Eastern Europe?
你在东欧摔断了多少条腿？
Three or four.
三四个。
To send a message or just for your own personal enjoyment?
发送消息还是只是为了个人享受？
If she wins, I’ll personally give her a million dollars.
如果她赢了，我会亲自给她一百万美元。
00:14 If I can foot lock her, we’re going to collaborate together in an OnlyFans sex tape.
如果我能用脚锁住她，我们将一起合作录制 OnlyFans 性爱录像带。
Did she agree to this?
她同意这个吗？
She shook on it.
她对此感到震惊。
You do have an OnlyFans channel.
您确实有一个 OnlyFans 频道。
00:30 Is that still up?
还这样吗？
After August 17th?
8月17日之后？
00:32 It’s going to be fire.
会很火的。
It’s going to be on fire.
它会着火的。
Honestly, when we talk about secret investor, I think that could fund the entire tournament.
老实说，当我们谈论秘密投资者时，我认为这可以为整个锦标赛提供资金。
I missed all that.
我错过了这一切。
00:40 What gives you hope?
是什么给了你希望？
That you can still make fun of anything as long as it’s funny.
只要有趣，你仍然可以取笑任何事情。
The following is a conversation with Craig Jones, martial artist, world traveler and one of the funniest people in the sport of submission grappling.
以下是与武术家、环球旅行家、降服格斗运动中最有趣的人之一克雷格·琼斯的对话。
00:48 While he does make fun of himself a lot, he is legitimately one of the greatest submission grapplers in the world.
虽然他确实经常取笑自己，但他确实是世界上最伟大的降服格斗手之一。
Underneath the veil of nonstop sexualized Aussie humor and incessant online trolling, he is truly a kindhearted human being who’s trying to do good in the world.
在不间断的澳大利亚性幽默和不断的网上恶搞的面纱之下，他确实是一个善良的人，努力为世界做好事。
Sometimes he does so through a bit of controversy and chaos.
有时他会通过一些争议和混乱来做到这一点。
01:22 Like with a new CJI tournament that has over $2 million in prize money.
就像奖金超过 200 万美元的新 CJI 锦标赛一样。
It’s coming up this Friday and Saturday.
它将于本周五和周六推出。
Yes, the same weekend as the prestigious ADCC tournament.
是的，与著名的 ADCC 锦标赛在同一个周末。
The goal of CGI tournament is to grow the sport.
CGI 锦标赛的目标是发展这项运动。
You’ll be able to watch it for free online, live on YouTube and other places.
您可以在 YouTube 和其他地方免费在线观看直播。
All ticket profits go to charity, mainly to cancer research.
所有门票利润都捐给慈善机构，主要用于癌症研究。
I encourage you to support the mission of this tournament by buying tickets and going to see the event in person.
我鼓励您购买门票并亲自观看比赛，以支持本次比赛的使命。
01:58 Craig gave me a special link that gives you a 50% discount on the tickets.
克雷格给了我一个特殊的链接，可以给你 50% 的门票折扣。
Go to lexfreeman.com/cji and it should forward you to the right place.
访问 lexfreeman.com/cji，它应该会将您转到正确的位置。
They’re trying to sell the last few tickets now.
他们现在正试图出售最后几张票。
It’s a good cause.
这是一个很好的理由。
Go buy some.
去买一些吧。
Also let me say, as a fan of the sport, I highly encourage you to watch both CJI and ADCC.
另外我想说的是，作为这项运动的粉丝，我强烈建议您观看 CJI 和 ADCC。
To celebrate athletes competing in both.
庆祝参加两项比赛的运动员。
From CJI with Nicky Ryan, Nicky Rod, or Ruotolo Brothers, Ffion Davis, McKenzie Dern, and more.
来自 CJI 的 Nicky Ryan、Nicky Rod、Ruotolo Brothers、Ffion Davis、McKenzie Dern 等。
02:29 To ADCC with Gordon Ryan, Nicholas Meregali, Giancarlo Bodoni, Rafael Lovato, Jr., Mica Galvao, and more.
与 Gordon Ryan、Nicholas Meregali、Giancarlo Bodoni、Rafael Lovato, Jr.、Mica Galvao 等一起前往 ADCC。
I have a lot of respect for everyone involved.
我非常尊重所有参与其中的人。
I trained with many of them regularly and consider many of them friends.
我定期与他们中的许多人一起训练，并把他们中的许多人视为朋友。
Including Craig Gordon and of course John Danaher, who I will talk to many, many more times on this podcast.
包括克雷格·戈登，当然还有约翰·丹纳赫，我将在这个播客上与他交谈很多很多次。
This is a Lex Fridman podcast.
这是莱克斯·弗里德曼的播客。
To support it please check out our sponsors in the description.
要支持它，请在说明中查看我们的赞助商。
Now, dear friends, I invite you all to come to the pool with Craig Jones and me.
现在，亲爱的朋友们，我邀请大家与克雷格·琼斯和我一起来到泳池。
03:04 When you brought the $1 million in cash on Rogan’s podcast, did you have security with you?
当你在罗根的播客上带来 100 万美元现金时，你身边有保安吗？
We had security, but only by Joe Rogan’s request.
我们有保安，但只是根据乔·罗根的要求。
03:11 He said, “You’re really going to bring it?
他说：“你真的要带吗？
Do you have security?” I said, “No.” He’s like, “Don’t worry about it.
有保安吗？”我说：“不。”他说：“别担心。
I’ll send my security.”
我会派我的保安来。”
You were going to do it without security?
你打算在没有保安的情况下这样做吗？
Yeah, we we’re going to wing it.
是的，我们会即兴发挥。
03:22 I was told not to tell anyone, but I sent pictures of it to everyone I know.
我被告知不要告诉任何人，但我把它的照片发给了我认识的每个人。
That was probably a security risk.
这可能是一个安全风险。
Yeah.
是的。
03:31 It’s just you in a car with a bag of cash.
只有你带着一袋现金坐在车里。
Yeah, it was a company that sponsors me, shuffle.com.
是的，是一家赞助我的公司，shuffle.com。
03:34 It was their friend.
这是他们的朋友。
A friend of theirs, so a guy that’s never met me before just took the risk to show up to a stranger’s house with a million dollars in cash to bring to Joe Rogan.
他们的一个朋友，所以一个以前从未见过我的人冒着风险带着一百万美元现金出现在一个陌生人的家里给乔·罗根。
It was a big risk of him.
这对他来说是一个很大的风险。
He just put it in the car and drove it.
他只是把它放进车里，然后就开走了。
Drove it over there, yeah.
开车过去，是的。
Yeah.
是的。
03:50 With no security except Joe.
除了乔之外没有任何保安。
Except Joe.
除了乔。
That’s common sense.
这是常识。
Then Joe said he’d never seen a million dollars before, but I don’t know if I believe him.
然后乔说他以前从未见过一百万美元，但我不知道我是否相信他。
That’s what everyone says.
大家都是这么说的。
03:59 That’s what Pablo Escobar probably says also.
巴勃罗·埃斯科瓦尔可能也是这么说的。
What’s your relationship with risk, especially with the risk of death?
您与风险（尤其是死亡风险）有何关系？
I would say I’m very risk averse.
我想说我非常厌恶风险。
You are?
你是？
04:09 No, you’re not.
不，你不是。
That’s a lie.
那是一个谎言。
My relationship with risk.
我与风险的关系。
04:13 I like a bit of excitement.
我喜欢一点点兴奋。
I like a bit of adventure.
我喜欢一点冒险。
I’m more about the adventure, but I will not let the risk get in the waiver.
我更喜欢冒险，但我不会让风险包含在弃权中。
Also, obviously just got back from Ukraine.
而且，显然刚从乌克兰回来。
I’m happy to take a few risks if it’s part of what the locals want me to do.
如果这是当地人希望我做的事情的一部分，我很乐意承担一些风险。
In Kazakhstan, we did some things that were dangerous.
在哈萨克斯坦，我们做了一些危险的事情。
If the locals are like, come along, join in on this activity, I feel personally obligated to go with them.
如果当地人愿意来参加这个活动，我个人觉得有义务和他们一起去。
It’s not about the risk.
这与风险无关。
04:41 You’re not attracted to risk, you’re attracted to adventure and the risk is a thing you don’t give a damn about.
你不会被风险所吸引，你会被冒险所吸引，而风险是你根本不在乎的事情。
Yeah.
是的。
If it comes along with it.
如果它随之而来。
Sometimes the best adventures involve the most risk, unfortunately.
不幸的是，有时最好的冒险也伴随着最大的风险。
Speaking of which, you went to Ukraine, like you said, twice, recently.
说到这里，正如您所说，您最近两次去了乌克兰。
Twice.
两次。
04:57 Really pushed the limit there.
确实突破了那里的极限。
Including to the front?
包括前线吗？
To the front.
到前面。
Tell me the full story of that from the beginning.
从头开始告诉我整个故事。
05:02 How did you end up in Ukraine?
你是怎么来到乌克兰的？
We’re in Kazakhstan.
我们在哈萨克斯坦。
05:08 We’re doing some filming in Kazakhstan, and obviously Borats still a very traumatic memory for them, and some of my jokes felt like they don’t go as well in that neck of the woods.
我们正在哈萨克斯坦进行一些拍摄，显然《波拉特》对他们来说仍然是一个非常痛苦的记忆，我的一些笑话感觉在那个树林里不太好听。
We had some difficulty filming out there.
我们在那里拍摄遇到了一些困难。
We filmed this horse game.
我们拍摄了这场赛马比赛。
Have you ever heard of Kok boru?
你听说过Kok boru吗？
Thanks to you, yes.
谢谢你，是的。
It’s a game, a very, very old game.
这是一个游戏，一个非常非常古老的游戏。
05:26 They cut a goat or a sheep.
他们切割山羊或绵羊。
I didn’t get too close to look at it.
我没有走得太近看它。
But they cut its head and legs off and they use it as some form of bull and then they’ll have up to a thousand guys on horses violently trying to pick this up and drop it in the other end’s goals basically.
但他们把它的头和腿砍下来，把它当作某种形式的公牛，然后他们会有多达一千个骑着马的人猛烈地试图把它捡起来，然后把它扔进另一端的球门里。
The goals used to be concrete, now it’s just a top.
以前的目标是具体的，现在只是一个目标。
But local business owners will throw down huge amounts of money for the winners.
但当地企业主将为获胜者投入巨额资金。
05:53 These horses have been trained from a very young age.
这些马从很小的时候就接受训练。
The riders have been trained.
骑手们已经接受过训练。
I’ve never ridden a horse before.
我以前从未骑过马。
We wanted to film something that made it look like I was going to go into the horse pit, into the Kok boru pit.
我们想拍摄一些让我看起来像是要去马坑、Kok boru 坑的东西。
However, the drunk stunt man that we used just decided that when he took my horse reigns, he would take me straight into the pit instead of ending the shot there.
然而，我们使用的醉酒特技演员刚刚决定，当他夺走我的马时，他会直接把我带进坑里，而不是在那里结束拍摄。
I was in there amongst I guess the horse riders, the Kok boru riders, and we weren’t leaving.
我猜我当时就在骑马者、Kok boru 骑手中间，但我们并没有离开。
06:23 We just were in there for quite a while.
我们只是在那里待了很长一段时间。
He could talk English pretty well actually.
事实上他英语说得很好。
He’s like, “Oh, I thought you’d want to check it out from the inside.” Then while we’re in there, someone picked up the carcass and a wave of horse riders came at me.
他说，“哦，我以为你想从里面检查一下。”然后，当我们在那里时，有人捡起了尸体，一波骑手向我冲来。
I was quite concerned at that point because they’re bashing into each other and obviously they’re angry.
那时我非常担心，因为他们互相攻击，显然他们很生气。
They’re seeing a foreigner in there.
他们在那里看到一个外国人。
I was wearing basically Biggie Smalls COOGI looking sweater, so I stood out.
我穿着基本上是 Biggie Smalls COOGI 风格的毛衣，所以我很引人注目。
06:51 They definitely didn’t like that I was participating in a game that they probably trained their whole life for and that amount of money they could win is very, very significant and there’s me in there.
他们绝对不喜欢我参加一场他们可能训练了一辈子的比赛，他们能赢得的钱是非常非常重要的，而且还有我在里面。
They’re also pointing out Borat, Borat.
他们还指出了波拉特，波拉特。
Thinking I was making Borat jokes, which again, very traumatic memory for the people at Kazakhstan.
我以为我在开玩笑，这对哈萨克斯坦人民来说又是一次非常痛苦的记忆。
Were you making Borat jokes?
你在开玩笑吗？
No, but I guess it’s the same type of humor.
不，但我想这是同一种幽默。
07:09 I’m not pretending to be Kazak.
我不是假装是哈萨克人。
I’m just there being an idiot and enjoying the local culture.
我只是像个白痴一样享受当地的文化。
But we’re over there in Kazakhstan and we did that.
但我们在哈萨克斯坦就做到了。
That was obviously a bit risky.
这显然有点冒险。
Did they learn to love you?
他们学会爱你了吗？
I think they learned to love me and then to hate me again.
我想他们学会了爱我，然后又恨我。
07:24 It was a bit of all encompassing relationship for the Kazak people.
对于哈萨克人来说，这是一种包罗万象的关系。
But we basically abandoned ship.
但我们基本上弃船了。
It was proven too difficult to film some things, some sensitive subjects over there.
事实证明，在那里拍摄一些事情、一些敏感话题太困难了。
I said, “Where should we go next?” I just looked at the map and I was like, “We’re near Ukraine.” Ukraine was a place that I’d been offered to teach a Jujitsu seminar prior to I guess the full scale war commencing and we’re looking for a bit of adventure, something interesting to film.
我说：“接下来我们该去哪里？”我只是看了地图，心想：“我们就在乌克兰附近。”我想在全面战争开始之前，有人邀请我在乌克兰教授柔术研讨会，我们正在寻找一些冒险，一些有趣的电影。
07:54 Following the news, obviously very controversial in the news, people have very strong opinions.
消息传出后，显然新闻中争议很大，人们的意见也很强烈。
I was like, ” Let’s go over there.
我当时想，“我们去那里吧。”
Let’s do a charity event.
我们来做一个慈善活动吧。
Let’s do something.
让我们做点什么吧。
Let’s train with the people and really experience of ourselves.” We set up the seminar.
让我们和人们一起训练，真正体验我们自己。”我们举办了研讨会。
Turned out to be the biggest seminar for Jujitsu in Ukraine history.
结果这是乌克兰历史上最大的柔术研讨会。
Which is wild considering obviously they are at war.
考虑到他们显然处于战争状态，这很疯狂。
But everyone came together to support it.
但大家都齐心协力支持。
One of the soldiers there, one of my friends there, good friend now, who’s on the front line, he made a comment on there.
那里的一名士兵，我在那里的一位朋友，现在是好朋友，在前线，他在那里发表了评论。
08:24 He said, “Hey, this is a seminar to donate profits to the soldiers, but we’re on the front line.” I was like, “You know what, I’ll come to you.” He’s like, “Listen, I can’t promise you’ll survive, but I’ll promise you’ll have a good time.” I said, “That’s all I needed to hear.” We connected and my friend Roman, we went really, really close.
他说：“嘿，这是一个向士兵捐赠利润的研讨会，但我们在前线。”我当时想，“你知道吗，我会来找你的。”他就像是，“听着，我不能保证你会活下来，但我保证你会玩得很开心。”我说：“这就是我需要听到的。”我们联系上了，我的朋友罗曼，我们非常非常亲密。
I think we were at the closest 0.7 kilometers from the front line.
我认为我们距离前线最近的是0.7公里。
Obviously very surreal experience to be over there seeing basically how the battles fought with those drones.
显然，在那里看到基本上是如何与这些无人机进行战斗的体验是非常超现实的。
How long ago was this?
这是多久以前的事了？
I think it would’ve been March or April.
我想应该是三月或四月。
08:58 We went there.
我们去了那里。
We went, basically spent two nights up on the front line.
我们去了，基本上在前线呆了两个晚上。
Went back to Kjiv and that was it for that trip.
回到克吉夫，那次旅行就到此为止。
In terms of crazy stuff that happened, obviously just the people living.
就发生的疯狂事情而言，显然只是活着的人。
You download the air defense tracker.
您下载防空跟踪器。
At any time there could be an air siren going off, an air alert on your phone.
空中警报随时可能响起，您的手机上会发出空中警报。
Could be like drones heading your way, planes are in the air, missiles flying.
可能就像无人机朝你飞来，飞机在空中，导弹在飞行。
Then those missiles will change direction and stuff, so the air alert, you don’t know if it’s heading a different direction, but they just warn everyone.
然后这些导弹会改变方向之类的，所以空中警报，你不知道它是否朝不同的方向前进，但它们只是警告所有人。
You live under a constant state of fear basically.
基本上你生活在持续的恐惧状态下。
Then on that first trip, the heaviest moment was, I was going downstairs in the hotel to work out, which is honestly a rare thing these days, doing something healthy with myself.
然后在第一次旅行中，最沉重的时刻是，我去酒店楼下锻炼身体，老实说，这在这些天是很少见的事情，为自己做一些健康的事情。
You’re working out.
你正在锻炼。
Getting in the gym, pumping some iron.
去健身房，做一些举重训练。
09:47 This was divine intervention that a hypersonic missile was shot down by the patriot event system, just like five minutes from the hotel.
这是天赐的干预，一枚高超音速导弹被爱国者事件系统击落，距离酒店只有五分钟的路程。
The whole hotel and the attached gym just shook like crazy.
整个酒店和附属的健身房都在疯狂地震动。
Some people started freaking out.
有些人开始惊慌失措。
Most people went to leave to go outside, which I don’t think is recommended, but you want to see what’s going on out there.
大多数人都离开去外面，我认为不建议这样做，但你想看看外面发生了什么。
This was in Kyiv?
这是在基辅吗？
This was in Kyiv.
这是在基辅。
10:11 It got shot down and then some of the local troops actually took me to the site of where just part of the missile had landed in the ground and left this huge of indentation.
它被击落了，然后一些当地部队实际上带我去了导弹只有一部分落在地面上并留下了巨大凹痕的地方。
They’d already cleared up most of the, I guess, shrapnel from the missile.
我猜他们已经清除了导弹上的大部分弹片。
I don’t know if I should or if I was legally allowed to do this, but I took some of that missile back home with me.
我不知道我是否应该这样做，也不知道法律是否允许我这样做，但我带了一些导弹回家。
I don’t know where I left it actually.
我不知道我实际上把它留在哪里了。
But I thought maybe that would raise some alarm bells and airport scans.
但我想这也许会引起一些警钟和机场扫描。
But I took it regardless.
但我还是不顾一切地接受了。
That was basically the crazy thing that happened on that first trip.
这基本上就是第一次旅行中发生的疯狂事情。
The Patriot Defense System is incredible.
爱国者防御系统令人难以置信。
10:44 That’s an incredible piece of technology that’s from the United States.
这是一项来自美国的令人难以置信的技术。
It’s expensive but it’s incredible.
它很昂贵，但令人难以置信。
Then so that’s protecting Kjiv.
这就是保护 Kjiv。
That’s protecting Kjiv, yeah.
这是在保护 Kjiv，是的。
10:55 That was at the time where US hadn’t voted to I guess keep funding the weapons over there.
当时美国还没有投票支持继续资助那里的武器。
It was a tense moment because I think, I don’t know, everyone was thinking when do those air defense missiles run out?
这是一个紧张的时刻，因为我想，我不知道，每个人都在想那些防空导弹什么时候用完？
That was a heavy moment for me thinking, look at what it shot out the sky.
那对我来说是一个沉重的时刻，看看它从天空中射出的东西。
Imagine if they didn’t have that.
想象一下，如果他们没有这个。
But that was probably the most surreal moment.
但这可能是最超现实的时刻。
But Kjiv largely, life goes on most of the time as per normal.
但在很大程度上，Kjiv 的生活大部分时间都在正常进行。
I was faced with crazy messages and comments, even just posting that video.
我面临着疯狂的消息和评论，甚至只是发布了那个视频。
Like I’m getting paid by Ukraine and stuff.
就像我从乌克兰等人那里得到报酬一样。
It’s just like people just don’t understand that life has to go on like Kjiv here, the front lines far away.
就像人们不明白生活必须像这里的克吉夫一样继续下去，前线在遥远的地方。
The cities have to largely try to operate as normal or just life will not go on in those villages and cities.
城市必须在很大程度上努力正常运转，否则这些村庄和城市的生活将无法继续。
Well, it’s human nature as well.
嗯，这也是人性。
11:48 It’s not just Kjiv, it’s Kharkiv, it’s even Donetsk, Khartsyzk.
不仅仅是克吉夫，是哈尔科夫，甚至是顿涅茨克、哈尔齐克。
People get accustomed to war quickly.
人们很快就习惯了战争。
It’s impossible to suffer for prolonged periods of time, so you adjust and you appreciate the things you still have.
长时间受苦是不可能的，所以你会调整并欣赏你仍然拥有的东西。
Yeah, some bolder moves out there.
是的，有一些更大胆的举动。
12:04 I love seeing people that just crazy stuff’s going on from the war and they don’t even react to it.
我喜欢看到人们看到战争中发生的疯狂事情，但他们甚至没有对此做出反应。
They don’t go to the bomb shelter.
他们不去防空洞。
It’s like a bolder move.
这就像一个更大胆的举动。
I’m not going to change my lifestyle.
我不会改变我的生活方式。
Actually on that first trip as well, something else that I probably shouldn’t have been allowed to do was go to Chernobyl.
实际上，在第一次旅行中，我可能不应该被允许做的其他事情就是去切尔诺贝利。
Chernobyl, I believe troops came through Belarus and there was some fighting going on in Chernobyl.
切尔诺贝利，我相信军队经过白俄罗斯，切尔诺贝利发生了一些战斗。
12:28 I think the whole world got concerned at that point if any sort of radiation leaked.
我想全世界都会担心是否有任何辐射泄漏。
But Chernobyl, as it stands, the troops back down and it’s completely covered in mines.
但切尔诺贝利，就目前情况而言，军队撤退了，而且整个地方都布满了地雷。
Very, very difficult to go to Chernobyl.
去切尔诺贝利非常非常困难。
Basically as a tourist or as I guess a idiot like myself should really probably not be allowed in a place like that.
基本上作为一名游客或者我想像我这样的白痴真的可能不应该被允许进入这样的地方。
But we were able to get there.
但我们能够到达那里。
We passed four security checkpoints.
我们通过了四个安全检查站。
It took two attempts.
尝试了两次。
First time we tried to go in there was with the special forces guy, we cleared two security gates.
我们第一次尝试与特种部队人员一起进入那里，我们通过了两个安全门。
Then they stopped us and basically threatened us with arrest.
然后他们拦住了我们，并威胁要逮捕我们。
Rightfully so.
理所当然。
Really have no business going to Chernobyl.
真的没有必要去切尔诺贝利。
We made a connection.
我们建立了联系。
I won’t say who this connection was, but he had heard about what I had done with a charity event and opened some doors for us to be able to go to Chernobyl.
我不会说这个联系人是谁，但他听说了我在慈善活动中所做的事情，并为我们能够前往切尔诺贝利打开了一些大门。
We got to see Chernobyl.
我们要去看看切尔诺贝利。
We had some filming restrictions there just because it was a crazy military conflict at one point.
我们在那里有一些拍摄限制，只是因为那是一场疯狂的军事冲突。
We got to actually see Chernobyl.
我们必须亲眼目睹切尔诺贝利。
Chernobyl always been a dream of mine to see.
切尔诺贝利一直是我的梦想。
It’s just such an interesting place and to see it under these conditions, very, very strange.
这是一个非常有趣的地方，在这样的条件下看到它，非常非常奇怪。
Yeah, what was that like?
是啊，那是什么样子的？
13:35 There’s no civilians there now.
现在那里已经没有平民了。
It’s just completely empty.
它完全是空的。
13:39 I guess it’s like the fantasy you have.
我想这就像你的幻想。
I imagine people go on tours of Chernobyl back in the tourist days when it was a tourist spot and it would be busy full of tourists.
我想象人们在旅游时代去切尔诺贝利旅游，当时那里还是一个旅游胜地，那里挤满了游客。
We got basically a private tour, so we got to really feel that abandoned vibes.
我们基本上是私人旅行，所以我们必须真正感受到被遗弃的氛围。
I guess I was interested in it from playing Call of Duty and then Chernobyl series, all the documentaries and stuff.
我想我对它感兴趣是因为玩了《使命召唤》，然后是《切尔诺贝利》系列，所有的纪录片和其他东西。
But very, very strange place to go visit.
但是去参观的地方非常非常奇怪。
It is now a minefield like a lot of parts of Ukraine.
现在它就像乌克兰的许多地区一样是一个雷区。
14:04 That’s one of the dark, terrifying aspects of wars.
这是战争的黑暗、可怕的方面之一。
How many mines are left even when the war ends for decades after?
即使战争几十年后结束，还剩下多少地雷？
Mines everywhere.
到处都是地雷。
Because de-mining is extremely difficult and that could continually kill people.
因为排雷极其困难，而且可能会不断造成人员伤亡。
I don’t think it’ll be a tourist spot for a very long time.
我认为在很长一段时间内它都不会成为旅游胜地。
14:28 Because if you were thinking about areas to de-mine when the conflict ends, an area where if you accidentally trigger a mine could cause a radiation leak.
因为如果您正在考虑冲突结束时要排雷的区域，那么如果您不小心触发了地雷，则可能会导致辐射泄漏。
It’s probably going to be very low on the list.
它可能会在列表中排在很低的位置。
Tourism for Chernobyl, who knows how long until that returns.
切尔诺贝利的旅游业，谁知道要多久才能恢复。
Why do you think you were able to get to Chernobyl?
你认为你为什么能够到达切尔诺贝利？
14:44 Why don’t you think the Ukrainian people, the Ukrainian soldiers don’t see you as a threat?
你为什么不认为乌克兰人民、乌克兰士兵不把你视为威胁？
Maybe they were hoping that I did step on a mine.
也许他们希望我确实踩到了地雷。
14:55 Maybe my jokes didn’t go too well there.
也许我的笑话在那里不太好听。
Your connection was actually Putin, he was trying to get rid of you.
你的联系人实际上是普京，他想除掉你。
Putin, yeah.
普京，是的。
15:01 I don’t know.
我不知道。
We felt pretty safe when we’re there.
当我们在那里的时候我们感觉很安全。
There was an air alert went off.
空中警报响起。
They were more concerned with me dying just for the PR side of things.
他们更关心我只是为了公关而死。
It’s like Australian tourist.
就像澳大利亚游客一样。
In one of your videos actually heard Ukrainian language.
在你的一个视频中实际上听到了乌克兰语。
15:15 They were talking about, we don’t want to lose an athlete.
他们在谈论，我们不想失去一名运动员。
That’s what they’re saying as they’re loading the rocket launcher.
这就是他们在给火箭发射器装弹时所说的话。
Oh yeah, the rocket launcher.
哦对了，火箭发射器。
15:28 I showed a rocket launcher with the troops on the first trip.
第一次出访时我就向部队展示了火箭发射器。
But the second trip I went back to, which was only maybe four to five weeks ago.
但我第二次回去，大概是四到五周前的事。
This time we went to some crazier spots.
这次我们去了一些更疯狂的地方。
We went to Odessa, which has been hit a ton.
我们去了敖德萨，那里遭受了重创。
I really enjoyed the video of old man stretching and exercising on the Odessa shore.
我真的很喜欢老人在敖德萨海岸伸展运动的视频。
Yeah, what is it, a local custom?
是啊，这是什么地方的风俗？
Well, Odessa people are known historically to be wild.
敖德萨人在历史上以狂野着称。
That was wild.
那太疯狂了。
15:54 It was abrasive to the eyes, but I appreciated it.
这对眼睛来说很刺眼，但我很欣赏。
Especially a middle-aged man in underwear with a beer belly doing a Sundance at dusk.
尤其是一个穿着内衣、啤酒肚的中年男子在黄昏时分参加圣丹斯电影节。
That would frighten many people.
这会吓到很多人。
Yeah.
是的。
16:06 The battleship would turn around.
战舰将掉头。
Yeah, so where else?
是啊，那么还有什么地方呢？
We went Odessa, we briefly went back to Kjiv.
我们去了敖德萨，又短暂返回了克吉夫。
16:10 I made a connection with the police chief, basically the entire country last time.
上次我和警察局长建立了联系，基本上是整个国家。
He had said to me that if I wanted to go somewhere really heavy in terms of action, we could go to Kherson.
他对我说，如果我想去一个行动力非常大的地方，我们可以去赫尔松。
He’s like, “I’ll personally escort you to Kherson.” I was just like, well, here we have an invitation for adventure.
他就像是，“我会亲自护送你去赫尔松。”我当时想，好吧，我们收到了冒险的邀请。
I think it’s a great idea to go.
我认为去是个好主意。
I thought, you know what?
我想，你知道吗？
I’ll completely lie to my camera man and tell him it’s a safe trip to go on so that he can pass that information onto his fiance and she won’t have any concerns.
我会完全对我的摄影师撒谎，告诉他这是一次安全的旅行，这样他就可以将这些信息传递给他的未婚夫，而她不会有任何担忧。
16:51 We basically take this huge journey all the way down to Kherson.
我们基本上是沿着这个巨大的旅程一直到赫尔松。
We switch at a city outside, I can’t remember the name, but we had to switch into armored vehicles.
我们在外面的一个城市转车，我不记得名字了，但我们必须转乘装甲车。
I remember the guy that picked this up there said, “Hey, give me a phone number for someone to call to recover your bodies.” He said that in a joking way, but I think he was serious.
我记得那个接到这个消息的人说：“嘿，给我一个电话号码，以便有人打电话来取回你的尸体。”他是开玩笑地说的，但我认为他是认真的。
But I said, “Just leave it.” I don’t think they need it.
但我说：“就这样吧。”我认为他们不需要它。
I didn’t think there’d be much left probably if we get hit over there.
我想如果我们在那里被击中的话，可能就剩下不了多少了。
17:15 But we go basically into Kherson.
但我们基本上进入赫尔松。
I think Kherson’s population used to be like 250,000 now it’s basically all military down to 50,000.
我认为赫尔松的人口过去大约有 25 万，现在基本上都是军队，减少到 5 万。
We went into the police basically station in the bunker underneath, the top of the building was destroyed.
我们进入的警察局基本上就在地堡下面，建筑物的顶部被摧毁了。
Then one of the local guys just took us on a city tour.
然后一位当地人带我们进行了一次城市之旅。
Which again, we had some filming restrictions because obviously anytime something’s hit, I guess the other side wants to be able to see what damage has been done.
同样，我们有一些拍摄限制，因为显然每当有东西被击中时，我想对方都希望能够看到造成了哪些损害。
17:44 If you take any footage of recently destroyed buildings, that’s going to help them recalibrate and target the next shot.
如果你拍摄最近被摧毁的建筑物的任何镜头，这将帮助他们重新校准并瞄准下一个镜头。
Kherson being so heavily hit, it’s basically within range of every single thing Russia has.
赫尔松受到的打击如此之大，基本上都在俄罗斯所有东西的射程之内。
Every form of weapon.
各种形式的武器。
Drones.
无人机。
Before we took the tour, he put some drone blocking things on top of the car, which didn’t look reassuring.
在我们参观之前，他在车顶放了一些无人机阻挡物，这看起来不太让人放心。
He also took a helmet out the back of the car, which I thought he was going to give to me, but he just threw it in the back of the pickup truck and said, “Oh, you won’t need this, you’ll be dead anyway.”
他还从车后拿出一个头盔，我以为他要给我，但他只是把它扔到皮卡车后面说：“哦，你不需要这个，反正你会死的。”
18:14 I was like, “Oh, I’ve made a great life decision with this little Kherson tour.” But then we took a tour of the city and Kherson used to be a beautiful beach city by the Nepo River, but basically it’s just the river that separates Russia from, I guess the Russian land they’ve taken from Kherson.
我当时想，“哦，通过这次小小的赫尔松之旅，我做出了一个伟大的人生决定。”但后来我们参观了这座城市，赫尔松曾经是涅波河边一座美丽的海滨城市，但基本上它只是将俄罗斯与俄罗斯分开的河流，我猜他们从赫尔松夺走了俄罗斯的土地。
Kherson split across that river and there’s just Russians on the other side of the river and Ukrainians on this side.
赫尔松分裂了那条河，河对岸只有俄罗斯人，河对岸只有乌克兰人。
Very, very dangerous spot.
非常非常危险的地方。
18:44 Kharkiv makes a lot of press because of the long range missiles that hit, but Kherson’s just being hit all the time.
哈尔科夫因为远程导弹的袭击而引起了很大的关注，但赫尔松却一直被击中。
We took this tour, we went along the river.
我们参加了这次旅行，我们沿着河边走。
We went to within one kilometer of the front line.
我们来到了距前线一公里以内的地方。
That was the closest we got.
那是我们最接近的一次。
After this point, we heard artillery strike.
此后，我们听到炮击声。
Because you’re in an armored vehicle, it sounds further away than it is.
因为你坐在装甲车里，所以听起来比实际距离更远。
Obviously the sound doesn’t get in.
显然声音传不进去。
I thought it sounded far away.
我以为这听起来很遥远。
We could see some smoke that actually appeared closer in the distance.
我们可以看到一些烟雾实际上出现在距离较近的地方。
19:16 The guy driving us took us to a point where a large building was blocking us from, I guess the angle at which the missile would’ve came from.
开车送我们去的那个人把我们带到了一个地方，那里有一座大型建筑物挡住了我们，我猜导弹的发射角度是这样的。
I thought everything was cool, thought that must’ve been off in the distance.
我觉得一切都很酷，觉得那一定是在遥远的地方。
Then we heard two more strikes hit very, very close.
然后我们听到另外两声打击非常非常接近。
They sounded really loud.
他们听起来真的很大声。
Then I think he’s radioed in to see if everything’s safe, if we can leave this point.
然后我想他通过无线电来看看是否一切都安全，我们是否可以离开这一点。
Then we basically raced back.
然后我们基本上就跑回来了。
But I started to realize we were in danger at any point where he really sped the car up or took evasive movements in the car.
但我开始意识到，只要他真的加速汽车或在车内采取躲避动作，我们就处于危险之中。
19:48 But we got out of there and I think I had someone translate it later and basically he was checking to see if the roads were clear for us to leave.
但我们离开了那里，我想我后来有人翻译了它，基本上他是在检查道路是否畅通，可供我们离开。
Ultimately ended up being someone died and a few people injured from that blast, which was less than half a kilometer from us.
最终，这次爆炸造成一人死亡、多人受伤，而爆炸距离我们还不到半公里。
Basically they were radioing saying, end the tour, come back to the police station.
基本上他们通过无线电说，结束旅行，回到警察局。
Artillery is terrifying.
火炮太可怕了
20:09 There’s just shelling and it’s the destructive power of artillery is insane.
只有炮击，大炮的破坏力是疯狂的。
Yeah, it’s constant all the time.
是的，它一直都是恒定的。
20:17 You hear that noise and you’re like, is that coming or going?
你听到那种声音，你会想，那是来还是去？
Very concerning.
非常令人担忧。
Right.
正确的。
20:23 You don’t know.
你不知道。
You don’t know.
你不知道。
Just like that, it could be you, gone.
就这样，可能是你，消失了。
Last time, the village we went to, basically it was the day we left.
上次我们去的那个村子，基本上就是我们离开的那天。
20:30 We stayed there overnight.
我们在那里过夜。
The day we left, it just started getting extremely shelled and the soldier we were with just took a selfie video of us and basically the location we were in just hearing just artillery strike after artillery strike, just being like, oh, you guys left and the fun began.
我们离开的那天，它开始受到猛烈的炮击，我们身边的士兵刚刚给我们拍了一段自拍照视频，基本上我们所处的位置只是听到一次又一次的炮击，就像，哦，你们离开了，乐趣开始了。
They take it in good spirit.
他们以良好的精神接受它。
I was trying to use their energy to reassure myself.
我试图利用他们的能量来安慰自己。
But I guess when they see it every day, they’re more adjusted to it.
但我想当他们每天看到它时，他们会更适应它。
They’re not freaking out every time something crazy that goes on.
每次发生疯狂的事情时，他们都不会惊慌失措。
Well, they have to.
好吧，他们必须这样做。
21:09 They have to be in good spirit.
他们必须保持良好的精神状态。
You have to be joking and laughing.
你必须开玩笑和大笑。
The guys are always laughing and joking.
小伙子们总是有说有笑。
21:15 They were laughing and joking at me quite a bit, holding weapons, trying to shoot weapons and stuff.
他们经常对我大笑、开玩笑，拿着武器，试图射击武器之类的东西。
They got a lot of enjoyment out of me shooting the RPG.
他们从我拍摄角色扮演游戏中得到了很多乐趣。
Yeah, they’re probably still telling stories of that crazy Australian American that rolled in.
是的，他们可能还在讲述那个疯狂的澳大利亚美国人的故事。
They helped me out though in my marketing campaign for the tournament.
他们在我的锦标赛营销活动中帮助了我。
21:32 We were able to secure a Lada, classic Soviet Union car.
我们获得了一辆拉达，经典的苏联汽车。
We towed it, we painted it with the logos of the other event, the ADCC, and we got to shoot some RPGs at it.
我们拖着它，给它画上了另一个赛事 ADCC 的标志，然后我们向它射击了一些角色扮演游戏。
Great experience.
很棒的经历。
Great fun.
很有趣。
Yeah, it’s a very creative marketing campaign.
是的，这是一个非常有创意的营销活动。
Very dangerous one.
非常危险的一个。
I don’t think Coke or Pepsi are going to do that one.
我不认为可口可乐或百事可乐会这么做。
21:53 It’s very innovative.
这非常有创意。
It was a bold move.
这是一个大胆的举动。
21:57 Luckily they let me get away with posting it.
幸运的是，他们让我逃脱了发布它的责任。
But when we were there, it was basically at a shooting range and we cleared them out for a while.
但当我们在那里的时候，基本上是在一个射击场，我们清理了他们一段时间。
We’d blown up the car, we’d set it on fire, we’d done all this sort of stuff.
我们炸毁了汽车，点燃了它，我们做了所有这些事情。
I remember we were trying to blow it up.
我记得我们正试图炸毁它。
It wasn’t quite hitting, one of the missiles was lodged in under the car, so it was risky.
打得不太好，其中一枚导弹卡在车底下，所以很危险。
That could have gone off at any moment.
那随时可能消失。
But we needed to get it to ignite.
但我们需要让它点燃。
We needed to get a shot where it was on fire.
我们需要在着火的地方开枪。
The logo of the enemy tournament was basically on fire.
敌方锦标赛的标志基本上都着火了。
We poured gasoline on it.
我们把汽油倒在上面。
We shot the gasoline tank.
我们射击了汽油箱。
That didn’t work.
那不起作用。
That must be a movie trick or something.
这肯定是电影特技之类的。
Then we decided we had light on fire, a rag and just throw it into the blown out back window.
然后我们决定点燃火，一块抹布，然后把它扔进被炸毁的后窗里。
I’m with this guy, special forces guy, and we throw the rag in the back.
我和这个家伙，特种部队的家伙在一起，我们把抹布扔到了后面。
Like soaked in gasoline rag?
就像浸过汽油的抹布一样？
Yeah.
是的。
22:44 We start running.
我们开始跑步。
He’s like, “Stop, stop.” He’s like, “It didn’t go off.” We’re sitting there quite close to the car, lighting it, trying to light more.
他就像是，“停下来，停下来。”他说：“事情没有发生。”我们坐在离汽车很近的地方，照亮它，试图照亮更多。
As we walk back to the car, then we just hear the car ignite.
当我们走回汽车时，我们只听到汽车点火的声音。
He’s like, “Run, run, run.” We came quite close to death already at that point.
他就像是，“跑，跑，跑。”那时我们已经非常接近死亡了。
But we wanted to get the shot, some photos in front of the burning logos.
但我们想要拍摄一些在燃烧的标志前的照片。
But we had told the guys at the shooting range to basically give us 10 minutes or so, so we could take the photos.
但我们已经告诉射击场的人基本上给我们 10 分钟左右的时间，这样我们就可以拍照。
23:14 I don’t know if they didn’t wait the full 10 minutes or if we took too long, but they started firing at the targets anyway.
我不知道他们是否没有等满 10 分钟，还是我们花了太长时间，但他们还是开始向目标开火。
Then the ricochets were flying very, very close to us over our head.
然后跳弹就在我们头顶上飞得离我们非常非常近。
One landed right by my leg.
其中一颗正好落在我的腿边。
We’re like, “Shit, we better get out of here.” Obviously not much safety concerns at that point, but we survived basically artillery strikes.
我们就像，“该死，我们最好离开这里。”显然当时没有太多安全问题，但我们基本上躲过了炮击。
We survived a bit of friendly fire with the bullets coming our way.
我们在子弹飞来的情况下幸免于难。
But again, I was strangely calm because the other guys were calm.
但我再次出奇地平静，因为其他人都很平静。
But then afterwards they said to me, they were like, “oh bro, if you got shot, we’d just have to dump your body at a hospital.
但后来他们对我说，“哦兄弟，如果你中枪了，我们就只能把你的尸体扔到医院了。
We wouldn’t be able to explain why you’re here blowing up cars.”
我们无法解释为什么你要在这里炸毁汽车。”
Right.
正确的。
23:49 You’re American and athlete, international celebrity.
你是美国人、运动员、国际名人。
They’d be like, what is he doing on the front line?
他们会问，他在前线做什么？
23:54 There’s no real good explanation for it.
对此没有真正好的解释。
But through even to the jokes and stuff, it’s good to highlight what’s actually happening over there.
但即使是笑话之类的，强调一下那里实际发生的事情也是很好的。
It’s obviously very, very bad.
这显然非常非常糟糕。
What’s the morale of the soldiers like?
士兵们的士气如何？
24:08 Is there still an optimism?
仍然乐观吗？
Is there still a hope?
还有希望吗？
There’s the battle fatigue and as they say, all the heroes die early.
战斗疲劳，正如他们所说，所有的英雄都死得很早。
24:14 The guys, the real heroes that are willing to sacrifice themselves, they’re the ones that are going to get taken out quick.
这些家伙，那些愿意牺牲自己的真正英雄，他们很快就会被消灭。
Unfortunately that’s the reality from over there.
不幸的是，这就是那里的现实。
But their thoughts are mostly that it’s going to be a prolonged war.
但他们的想法主要是这将是一场旷日持久的战争。
When I ask them about how fast the front line moves, they’re like, “Oh, could take six months to move one 200 meters.”
当我问他们前线移动的速度有多快时，他们说：“哦，移动 200 米可能需要六个月的时间。”
24:39 It just feels like it’s going to go on forever.
感觉就像会永远持续下去。
From the Ukrainian side’s perspective, those guys talk to me about how when they hear radio intercepts of Russian soldiers marching to the same frontline spot, is that basically they’re marching into certain death at certain locations.
从乌克兰方面的角度来看，这些人告诉我，当他们听到无线电拦截俄罗斯士兵行进到同一前线地点时，基本上他们正在向某些地点的死亡行进。
Based on the radio transmissions, they know they’re going to die, but they head forth anyway.
根据无线电传输，他们知道自己快要死了，但他们还是继续前行。
Straightforward into Ukrainian position.
直接进入乌克兰立场。
Which is just wild to me, I guess World War II, they just keep throwing troops at it.
这对我来说太疯狂了，我猜是第二次世界大战，他们只是不断地向它投入军队。
You see a ton of footage they take themselves, which is mind-blowing.
你会看到大量他们自己拍摄的镜头，这令人兴奋。
Obviously some of this footage doesn’t make it to the internet because it’s got important details in those conflicts.
显然，其中一些镜头没有发布到互联网上，因为它包含了这些冲突的重要细节。
But they’re showing first person perspectives of trench warfare.
但他们展示的是堑壕战的第一人称视角。
It’s just crazy to see what some of these guys have gone through.
看到这些人所经历的事情真是太疯狂了。
I went to a lot of the same places as well, including Kherson.
我也去了很多同样的地方，包括赫尔松。
25:32 What was your sense of the place?
你对这个地方有什么感觉？
Kherson was like, it was just so destroyed.
赫尔森就像是，它就这么被毁了。
25:41 I think at this point most of the civilians are gone.
我认为此时大多数平民都已经消失了。
I saw a lot of just elderly people left behind, especially a lot of old men.
我看到很多刚留守的老人，尤其是很多老人。
I just think they’re just like, hey, I’ve lived in my whole life, I’m just never leaving.
我只是觉得他们就像，嘿，我已经活了一辈子，我只是永远不会离开。
No matter the level of danger, those guys just remain.
无论危险程度如何，那些家伙都会留下来。
Then it’s largely just, I guess military in Kherson.
然后，我猜主要是赫尔松的军事活动。
But that place felt very, very dangerous.
但那个地方感觉非常非常危险。
I didn’t realize until we got there, just quite how destroyed it is.
直到我们到达那里我才意识到它被毁得多么严重。
How did that experience change you?
那次经历如何改变了你？
26:12 Just seeing war, head on.
刚刚看到战争，迎头赶上。
How it changed me?
它如何改变了我？
26:18 I guess just realizing a lot of these soldiers are just, you distance yourself from them thinking that they’re something separate.
我想当你意识到这些士兵中的很多人都是正义的时候，你就会与他们保持距离，认为他们是不同的东西。
But really speaking to a lot of the Ukrainian soldiers, my friend Roman, he hadn’t lived in Ukraine for eight years.
但实际上，我的朋友罗曼对很多乌克兰士兵来说，他已经八年没有在乌克兰生活了。
He lived in France, he had a life, he’s got a wife over there, he’s got a daughter.
他住在法国，他有自己的生活，他在那里有一个妻子，他有一个女儿。
He basically volunteered to come back to protect his mom and brother who still live there.
他基本上自愿回来保护仍然住在那里的母亲和兄弟。
26:47 I used to view them military guys, because in Australia and I guess in the US, they don’t have this conscription ongoing right now.
我曾经把他们视为军人，因为在澳大利亚和我想在美国，他们现在没有正在进行征兵活动。
Whereas obviously there’s guys like Roman who volunteered, but then there’s a lot of Ukrainian soldiers that were conscripted into the war.
显然有像罗曼这样的人自愿参军，但也有很多乌克兰士兵被征召入伍。
It’s like you just realize how a lot of these guys are everyday people.
就好像你刚刚意识到这些人中有很多都是普通人。
They’re just in this crazy situation.
他们只是处于这种疯狂的境地。
Where Roman felt obligated to return to Ukraine.
罗曼觉得有义务返回乌克兰。
From my perspective, anyone from Australia or US, it’s just a different perspective on those.
从我的角度来看，任何来自澳大利亚或美国的人，只是对这些的看法不同。
They feel different to the regular people fighting in Ukraine, from my perspective.
从我的角度来看，他们与在乌克兰战斗的普通人感觉不同。
Yeah, it’s defending the land that is your home.
是的，这是保卫你的家园的土地。
Yeah, Japan was coming for Australia, I guess in World War II.
是的，日本正在进攻澳大利亚，我猜是在第二次世界大战中。
27:30 They attacked the north.
他们进攻北方。
But really there was no foot battle and there was no soldiers on the ground within Australia.
但实际上，澳大利亚境内并没有发生徒步战斗，也没有士兵在地面上。
I guess US too during World War II.
我想二战期间美国也是如此。
It’s like a completely different perspective from our recent histories compared to if you were a Ukrainian and there’s Russians within the defined border.
与如果你是乌克兰人并且在规定的边界内有俄罗斯人相比，这就像我们最近的历史完全不同的视角。
Their responsibility to protect their homeland and their family, it’s just something you can’t imagine.
他们保护家园、保护家人的责任，是你无法想象的。
But also after having spent time with them, you can see why they feel such a strong sense of obligation to protect Ukraine, protect their family and friends.
但在与他们相处之后，你就会明白为什么他们有如此强烈的义务感来保护乌克兰、保护他们的家人和朋友。
In a lot of cases, the soldiers using their own funds to buy equipment.
很多时候，战士们用自己的资金购买装备。
28:09 Whether it’s bullets, whether it’s guns, whether it’s armor.
无论是子弹，无论是枪支，无论是盔甲。
Is that still what you saw?
这还是你看到的吗？
Yeah, in terms of the weapons, America provides weapons.
是的，就武器而言，美国提供武器。
28:23 We saw a wide selection of weapons.
我们看到了多种武器可供选择。
Some of those would be old Soviet weapons, like obviously the RPG we shot and what we shot out of it is all Soviet.
其中一些可能是旧的苏联武器，就像我们射击的火箭弹一样，我们用它发射的东西都是苏联的。
It’s very old weaponry.
这是非常古老的武器。
Then you’ve got US weapons that have been given as well.
然后你也得到了美国的武器。
But in terms of the basic soldiers equipment, if they want good quality stuff, that might be the difference between them surviving the winter or the summer just in the extreme temperature range.
但就基本的士兵装备而言，如果他们想要质量好的东西，那可能就是他们在极端温度范围内度过冬天或夏天的区别。
28:56 They have to pay for that all themselves.
他们必须自己为此付出代价。
They always joke about when foreign soldiers come over to train them.
当外国士兵过来训练他们时，他们总是开玩笑。
A lot of foreign soldiers come to learn about the drone technology they’ve developed on a budget is they always joke with them about how everything from most countries is basically supplied.
许多外国士兵来了解他们在预算内开发的无人机技术，他们总是和他们开玩笑说大多数国家的所有东西基本上都是如何供应的。
All the good quality standard equipment they’d need is just supplied by the government.
他们所需的所有优质标准设备都由政府提供。
But in Ukraine, obviously funding is very stretched.
但在乌克兰，资金显然非常紧张。
29:22 These guys to have the best equipment.
这些家伙拥有最好的装备。
They have to basically find money to pay for it themselves.
他们基本上必须自己找到钱来支付。
They’ll do that by seeking donations.
他们将通过寻求捐款来做到这一点。
Best way to get donations would be to grow social media profiles.
获得捐款的最佳方式是扩大社交媒体形象。
That’s when you see a lot of social media warfare from a perspective of gaining fame to secure donations for their battalion to be able to fight better or protect themselves.
那时你会看到很多社交媒体战争，从获得名誉的角度来看，为他们的营争取捐款，以便能够更好地战斗或保护自己。
Also, some of the social media warfare, I guess is psychological warfare against the enemy.
另外，一些社交媒体战，我猜是针对敌人的心理战。
You’ll see private Telegram groups where they’re showing what they’ve done to the enemy, what the enemy’s done to them.
你会看到私人电报群，他们在其中展示他们对敌人做了什么，敌人对他们做了什么。
It’s just crazy.
这太疯狂了。
Yeah, there’s Telegram groups on both sides and basically some of it is propaganda, some of it is psychological warfare.
是的，双方都有 Telegram 群，基本上有些是宣传，有些是心理战。
29:58 Some of it is just the human nature of being, of increasing your own morale and the morale of the people around you by showing off successfully killing other human beings.
其中一些只是人类的本性，通过炫耀成功杀死其他人来提高自己和周围人的士气。
Which are made other in war.
这是在战争中变得不同的。
The nature of this war has evolved.
这场战争的性质已经演变。
Drones have become more and more prevalent.
无人机已经变得越来越普遍。
Consumer level, cheap drones.
消费级，廉价无人机。
Can you speak to that?
你能谈谈吗？
Have you seen the use of FPE drones?
您见过FPE无人机的使用吗？
Yeah, so basically like a three to $500 drone.
是的，基本上就像一架 3 到 500 美元的无人机。
30:33 I think it’s like carbon fiber, 3D printed and they can attach different forms of weaponry to it, whether it’s just dropping a frag.
我认为它就像 3D 打印的碳纤维，他们可以在上面附加不同形式的武器，无论只是扔下碎片。
They could drop a mine out of it.
他们可以从里面扔下一颗地雷。
I know they were talking about how they had a liquid that could basically burn through a lot of cars and tanks so the person inside basically melt alive.
我知道他们正在谈论如何制造出一种液体，这种液体基本上可以烧穿很多汽车和坦克，所以里面的人基本上会被活活融化。
Which sounds horrible.
这听起来很可怕。
But what’s mind-blowing to me is you could have a $3 million Russian tank that could be destroyed by a $300 drone.
但令我震惊的是，一辆价值 300 万美元的俄罗斯坦克可以被一架价值 300 美元的无人机摧毁。
31:05 Which is just crazy how fast the war changes.
战争变化之快真是太疯狂了。
I think they’re the world leaders in budget drone technology.
我认为他们是廉价无人机技术的世界领导者。
They didn’t obviously don’t have the budget for these crazy, elaborate massive drones.
他们显然没有预算来购买这些疯狂、精致的大型无人机。
I did see some higher budget, bigger drones over there, but for the most part, those FPV drones is really how most of the battles are fought.
我确实在那里看到了一些预算更高、更大的无人机，但在大多数情况下，这些 FPV 无人机确实是大多数战斗的方式。
You’re seeing the cameras on them.
你会看到他们身上有摄像头。
You can see basically kamikaze drone will chase someone down and they have that footage.
你可以看到基本上神风特攻队无人机会追击某人，他们有那个镜头。
31:35 That’s what the police chief said to me when he gifted me one of the drones they used.
这是警察局长送给我他们使用的一架无人机时对我说的。
He basically said, he’s like, “Artillery is scary, but a drone will follow you into a building.” It’s a haunting thing to think about.
他基本上是说，“大炮很可怕，但无人机会跟着你进入建筑物。”这是一件令人难以忘怀的事情。
They’ll see the drone, they’ll hear the drone, they might try to shoot it down or they might try to run.
他们会看到无人机，他们会听到无人机，他们可能会尝试将其击落，或者可能会尝试逃跑。
But if it’s a kamikaze one, those guys are pretty good at flying them.
但如果是神风特攻队，那些人就非常擅长驾驶它们。
It’s going to chase the soldiers down.
它会追赶士兵。
A lot of soldiers like pretending to be dead.
很多士兵都喜欢装死。
It’s really crazy, some of the footage out there with those FBV drones.
这真的很疯狂，一些 FBV 无人机拍摄的镜头。
It’s a terrifying tool of war and tool of psychological war and used by both sides increasingly.
它是一种可怕的战争工具和心理战工具，越来越多地被双方使用。
Yeah, both sides use it.
是啊，双方都用。
32:14 I remember I was with Roman in Morshyn and he had his break period.
我记得我和罗曼一起在莫辛，他有休息时间。
He was allowed to leave the country because he basically volunteered to join the army.
他被允许离开这个国家，因为他基本上是自愿参军的。
Ukrainian men can’t really leave Ukraine right now.
乌克兰男人现在还不能真正离开乌克兰。
But Roman, I was in Morshyn and this was a surreal experience for him.
但是罗曼，我在莫辛，这对他来说是一次超现实的经历。
We went to the beach and there was some tourists there flying a drone, and you just saw his instinctual reaction to that drone sound in the sky, flashback to that.
我们去了海滩，那里有一些游客在驾驶无人机，你只能看到他对天空中无人机声音的本能反应，回想起那件事。
Currently, they’re all, as far as I know, all human controlled, so FPV.
目前，据我所知，它们都是由人类控制的，所以 FPV。
32:43 But to me, increasingly terrifying notion is of them becoming autonomous.
但对我来说，越来越可怕的想法是它们变得自治。
It’s the best way to defend against the drone that’s FPV controlled is for AI to be controlling that drone.
防御 FPV 控制的无人机的最佳方法是让 AI 控制该无人机。
Just have swarms of drones that are $500 controlled by AI systems.
只要花费 500 美元，拥有由人工智能系统控制的成群无人机即可。
That’s a terrifying possibility that the future of warfare is essentially swarms of drones on both sides.
这是一种可怕的可能性，未来的战争本质上是双方的无人机群。
Then maybe swarms of drones, say between US and China over Taiwan.
然后可能会有成群的无人机，比如美国和中国之间的台湾上空。
That would be wild.
那太疯狂了。
33:18 They do those crazy drone light shows where they do those performances with the lights and stuff.
他们进行疯狂的无人机灯光秀，用灯光和其他东西进行表演。
They’re already pretty sophisticated with pre-programming.
他们的预编程已经相当成熟。
Those are pre-programmed.
这些都是预先编程的。
33:26 The low level control, flight control of those is done autonomously.
低层控制、飞行控制都是自主完成的。
But there’s a interface for doing the choreography that’s hard coded in.
但是有一个用于进行硬编码的编排的界面。
But adding increasing levels of intelligence to the drone where you can detect another drone, follow it and defend yourself.
但是，为无人机增加越来越多的智能，你可以检测另一架无人机，跟踪它并保护自己。
In terms of the military on both sides as the Ukraine war, that’s the technology, that’s like the most wanted technology is drone defense.
就乌克兰战争双方的军事而言，这就是技术，就像最想要的技术是无人机防御一样。
How are you defending as drones on both sides?
双方如何作为无人机进行防守？
Anybody that comes up with an autonomous drone technology is going to help whichever side uses that technology to gain a mill-
任何提出自主无人机技术的人都将帮助使用该技术的任何一方获得工厂——
34:00 …
……
is going to help whichever side uses that technology to gain a military advantage.
将帮助任何一方使用该技术来获得军事优势。
And so, there’s a huge incentive to build that technology but then, of course, once both sides started using that technology, then there’s swarms of autonomous drones who don’t give a shit about humans, just killing everything in sight on both sides.
因此，开发这项技术有巨大的动力，但是，当然，一旦双方开始使用这项技术，就会出现大量的自主无人机，它们根本不关心人类，只会杀死双方视线范围内的一切。
And that’s terrifying because there’s civilian deaths that are possible that are terrifying, especially when you look 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years from now.
这很可怕，因为可能会造成可怕的平民死亡，尤其是当你展望 10 年、20 年、30 年、40 年、50 年后。
Yes, it’s surreal.
是的，这很超现实。
34:30 When we went to coastline, it was the entire sky is just full of drones.
当我们到达海岸线时，整个天空都布满了无人机。
At any given time, they could decide to come and attack.
在任何特定时间，他们都可以决定进攻。
So, they could just sit there forever waiting, waiting for you to come out of that building.
所以，他们可以永远坐在那里等待，等待你从那栋大楼里出来。
They’ll wait a long time when someone goes and hides inside.
当有人躲在里面时，他们会等待很长时间。
Or potentially, if it’s an open window, fly straight through the open window to get people.
或者，如果是一扇打开的窗户，则可以直接飞过打开的窗户去接人。
Yeah.
是的。
34:52 So, you’re not even safe indoors.
所以，你在室内甚至都不安全。
Yeah, there’s nowhere to hide and they can wait for a very, very long time.
是的，无处可藏，他们可以等待很长很长的时间。
And as far as I know, even politicians, you’re in danger everywhere in Ukraine.
据我所知，即使是政客，在乌克兰到处都处于危险之中。
34:58 So, if you want to do a public speaking thing and doing it outside, you’re in danger because it’s very difficult to detect those drones, it could be anywhere.
因此，如果你想做公开演讲并在室外进行，你就会处于危险之中，因为很难检测到这些无人机，它们可能在任何地方。
It’s a terrifying life where you don’t know if you’re safe at any moment anywhere in Ukraine.
这是一种可怕的生活，你不知道自己在乌克兰的任何地方是否随时安全。
Well, sure.
嗯，当然。
35:19 It’s crazy with what happened to Trump, I thought maybe the next attack on a public figure might come in the form of drone technology, something along those lines.
特朗普身上发生的事情太疯狂了，我想也许下一次对公众人物的攻击可能会以无人机技术的形式出现，类似的东西。
I wonder how they protect against that here.
我想知道他们是如何防止这种情况发生的。
If that happens, just imagine the insanity that would ensue.
如果发生这种情况，想象一下随之而来的疯狂。
35:33 Because we understand the idea of a gunman with a rifle shooting somebody but, just a drone, just imagine the conspiracy theories.
因为我们理解枪手用步枪射击某人的想法，但只是一架无人机，想象一下阴谋论。
Who controlled that drone?
谁控制了那架无人机？
Where’d it come from?
它从哪里来？
35:48 Yeah.
是的。
And now, everybody, that will just cause chaos.
现在，大家，这只会造成混乱。
And the range is ever-increasing.
而且范围还在不断增加。
35:53 One of the battalions in Ukraine, because those FPV drones have short range, pretty short range, but they were able to attach it to one of the larger drones with a signal booster so they could potentially go up to 30, 40 kilometers into the distance.
乌克兰的一个营，因为这些 FPV 无人机的射程很短，非常短，但他们能够将其连接到一架带有信号增强器的大型无人机上，这样它们就有可能到达 30、40 公里的距离。
So, the drone that hits you could be flown by someone so far away from you.
因此，击中你的无人机可能是由离你很远的人驾驶的。
And if they did that domestically, that would be very frightening to think of the sphere of where it could have come from.
如果他们在国内这样做，想想它可能来自的领域就会非常可怕。
When you’ve talked to the soldiers there, did they have a hope or a vision how the war will end?
当你与那里的士兵交谈时，他们是否有希望或愿景战争将如何结束？
No, really.
不，真的。
36:28 I guess it just seems to everyone that there’s going to be no middle ground.
我想每个人都觉得没有中间立场。
When I was there, there’s a optimism that they would be victorious definitively.
当我在那里时，人们乐观地认为他们一定会取得胜利。
36:36 And so, is there still that optimism and, also, are they ready for prolonged war?
那么，他们是否仍然保持乐观态度，并且他们是否准备好应对长期战争？
I think it would be a soldier by soldier basis.
我认为这将是一个逐个士兵的基础。
36:52 I know each of them had a different perspective.
我知道他们每个人都有不同的观点。
I remember I would ask them about, in terms of US politics and their fears, because the first trip I went there, US hadn’t agreed to resupply weapons.
我记得我会问他们有关美国政治和他们的恐惧的问题，因为我第一次去那里时，美国没有同意重新供应武器。
So, it was a very different feeling in the air there of concern over what was going to happen but they still remained quite optimistic that, no matter who got in, they felt would do the right thing.
因此，空气中弥漫着一种非常不同的感觉，他们担心将会发生什么，但他们仍然非常乐观，无论谁加入，他们都觉得会做正确的事情。
But in terms of prolonged war, most people think it’s going to go for a very long time.
但就长期战争而言，大多数人认为它会持续很长时间。
The children’s hospital that just was bombed in Kyiv, anytime there’s a moment like that, that reignites everything and I think it happens on both sides.
基辅的儿童医院刚刚被炸，每当有这样的时刻，一切都会重新点燃，我认为双方都会发生这种情况。
37:35 So, I know that there was an attack in Crimea, there was an attack on a beach, I guess, and I don’t know if that attack on the hospital was retribution for that but that’s the energy that is felt.
所以，我知道克里米亚发生了袭击，我猜海滩发生了袭击，我不知道对医院的袭击是否是对此的报复，但这就是感受到的能量。
They might have battle fatigue but, when something happens to civilians, especially kids, on your side, reinvigorates the energy to fight for as long as necessary.
他们可能会感到战斗疲劳，但当平民（尤其是孩子）发生什么事时，站在你这边的人会重新焕发活力，继续战斗，只要有必要。
And in terms of the case by case basis, one of my friends, Dmitri, over there who trains jiu-jitsu in the gym, he was very passionate about it just because of the history.
就具体情况而言，我的一位朋友德米特里在健身房训练柔术，他对柔术非常热情，只是因为历史。
He brought out documents of his grandfather being executed by the USSR.
他拿出了他祖父被苏联处决的文件。
So, I know that when the war started, basically, he took a bicycle helmet and his AK-47 and went out into the streets and he’s like, “I’d rather be dead than live under Russian rule again.” So, very case by case basis, personal history for them, I think.
所以，我知道，当战争开始时，基本上，他带着自行车头盔和 AK-47 走到街上，他说，“我宁愿死，也不愿再次生活在俄罗斯统治下。”所以，我认为，根据具体情况，他们的个人历史。
Did they comment on US politics whether they hoped for Trump or for, in that situation, Biden now Harris to win the presidential election?
他们是否对美国政治发表评论，无论是希望特朗普还是在这种情况下希望拜登（现在的哈里斯）赢得总统选举？
I think most of the guys try to keep it pretty positive.
我认为大多数人都试图保持积极的态度。
38:45 You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
Some people did think that maybe, if Trump was elected, he wouldn’t continue to fund it but they really try to stay optimistic.
有些人确实认为，如果特朗普当选，他可能不会继续资助它，但他们确实试图保持乐观。
Most of the people I spoke to really try to remain optimistic that they would be protected if it comes down to it.
与我交谈过的大多数人都试图保持乐观，认为如果真的发生了，他们会受到保护。
But obviously, there was a nine-month period where they weren’t refunded.
但显然，有九个月的时间没有退款。
So, as that stretched …
所以，随着时间的推移……
Obviously, they’re refunded now but it takes a lot of time to get that equipment back to the points at which they need it.
显然，他们现在已经退款，但需要很长时间才能将设备恢复到他们需要的地方。
So, if ammunition had ran out, Patriot defense system had ran out, really, really scary prospect there.
所以，如果弹药用完了，爱国者防御系统也用完了，那里的前景真的非常可怕。
I don’t know, I guess no one knows what’s going to happen there.
我不知道，我想没有人知道那里会发生什么。
Did you lie to people and say you were close to the president so they can be nice to you so they can convince you to continue the funding?
你是否对人们撒谎，说你与总统关系密切，这样他们就可以对你好，这样他们就可以说服你继续提供资金？
I’m an Australian diplomat.
我是澳大利亚外交官。
39:35 Other than that-
除此之外——
Diplomat.
外交官。
39:38 That could be a nice way in.
这可能是一个很好的进入方式。
Yeah, that would’ve been a nice way to the top.
是的，这将是登顶的好方法。
39:39 Luckily, for me, most of the places I travel to, jiu-jitsu gives me access to so many different individuals, it’s super bizarre.
幸运的是，对我来说，在我去过的大多数地方，柔术让我接触到了很多不同的人，这真是太奇怪了。
Oligarchs, royalty, I guess, tech wizards, it’s a strange group of people, a code around the world of just I get strange access just for being good at wrestling dudes.
我猜是寡头、皇室成员、技术奇才，这是一群奇怪的人，是世界各地的一个代码，只是因为我擅长与家伙摔跤，所以我获得了奇怪的访问权限。
Yeah, martial arts, there’s a code and there’s a respect, a mutual respect.
是的，武术，有一个准则，有一种尊重，一种相互尊重。
40:05 Even if you don’t know anything about the other person, if you’ve both have done martial arts, there’s similar things with judo, with jiu-jitsu, with grappling, all of that.
即使你对对方一无所知，如果你们都练过武术，那么柔道、柔术、格斗等等都有类似的东西。
I don’t know what that is.
我不知道那是什么。
Yeah, it’s like an inner circle.
是的，就像一个内圈。
40:20 Because this film project we’re working on, it’s focused on that is, because of the history I have in jiu-jitsu and traveling and doing seminars and just getting access to strange experiences from the local, strange in a positive way, and participating in those experiences, that’s what I wanted to focus this travel show on was the community of jiu-jitsu.
因为我们正在制作的这个电影项目，它的重点是，因为我在柔术方面的历史，旅行和举办研讨会，只是从当地获得奇怪的经历，以积极的方式参与这些经历，这就是我想把这个旅游节目的重点放在柔术社区上。
People around the world really has no ethnic background, religious background, even level of wealth, as cheesy as it sounds, it’s a good equalizer on the mats and that community, camaraderie knows no limits there.
世界各地的人们确实没有种族背景、宗教背景，甚至财富水平，尽管听起来很俗气，但这是垫子上很好的均衡器，而且社区、友情是没有限制的。
Including mats, the shadiest mats in some small town in the middle of nowhere?
包括垫子，某个荒无人烟的小镇上最阴暗的垫子？
100%.
100%。
41:04 Even Sheikh Tahnoun who started ADCC, I know, when he went to the US and he studied there, he would train at a very simple gym, he wouldn’t declare who he was.
即使是创办 ADCC 的谢赫·塔农 (Sheikh Tahnoun)，我知道，当他去美国学习时，他会在一个非常简单的健身房训练，他不会宣布自己是谁。
I watched a documentary produced about the story of Sheikh Tahnoun and how he studied in America, basically, in anonymity.
我观看了一部关于谢赫·塔农的故事以及他如何在美国学习的纪录片，基本上是匿名的。
The people that his gym didn’t know who he was in his country and he trained there, he trained with him for years, cleaned the mats like anyone else.
他的健身房里的人不知道他是谁，在他的国家，他在那里训练，他和他一起训练了很多年，像其他人一样清洁垫子。
And then they didn’t realize who he was until he said, “Hey, I want to invite you to my country,” but he actually meant, basically as royalty, come and then they realized who this guy was and the significance of him.
然后他们才意识到他是谁，直到他说，“嘿，我想邀请你来我的国家，”但他实际上的意思是，基本上作为皇室成员，来吧，然后他们意识到这个人是谁以及他的重要性。
That’s gangster, that’s great.
这就是黑帮，太棒了。
41:46 One of the things I love about no-Gi jiu-jitsu is you don’t see rank.
我喜欢无道柔术的原因之一就是看不到等级。
So, on a small scale, there’s no hierarchy that emerges when you have the different color belts, everybody’s the same.
所以，在小范围内，当你有不同的色带时，不会出现等级制度，每个人都是一样的。
It’s nice.
很好。
Yeah, you get to see the skill.
是的，你可以看看技能。
The skill speaks but there’s just a mutual respect and whatever.
技巧是可以说话的，但只有相互尊重之类的。
42:01 You can quickly find out who …
您可以快速找出谁...
I actually wonder if I would be able to figure out the rank of a person.
我真的想知道我是否能够弄清楚一个人的等级。
Can you usually figure out how long a person has been doing jiu-jitsu?
你通常能算出一个人练习柔术多久了吗？
I like to think, with some of the aggressive clothing choices I’ve made and sold in the sport, that that should be a beacon, that that person is a blue belt.
我喜欢认为，根据我在这项运动中制作和销售的一些激进的服装选择，那应该是一个灯塔，那个人是一条蓝腰带。
42:14 Has, hopefully, some talent because they’re fearlessly provoking the other party there.
希望他们有一些天赋，因为他们无所畏惧地挑衅对方。
Oh, it’s like in the jungle, whenever there’s an insect that’s red that is really flamboyant looking, that means they’re dangerous.
哦，就像在丛林里，只要有一种红色的昆虫，看起来很华丽，那就意味着它们很危险。
It’s a target, yeah, though being flamboyant.
是的，这是一个目标，尽管很浮夸。
42:37 If you come on the mats with something pink, pinky or something, people are circling in fast especially in Eastern Europe.
如果你带着粉色、小指之类的东西出现在垫子上，人们就会围过来，尤其是在东欧。
Okay.
好的。
42:47 So, yeah, you mentioned the project, can you talk about that?
那么，是的，你提到了这个项目，你能谈谈吗？
I saw there’s a preview that you showed, Craig Jones Gone Walkabout.
我看到你展示了一个预览，《克雷格·琼斯的行踪》。
Gone Walkabout, yeah.
走了走走，是的。
So, you showed a preview in Indonesia where you’re both celebrating and maybe poking a bit of fun at Hicks and Gracie.
所以，你在印度尼西亚展示了一个预览，在那里你既庆祝又可能取笑希克斯和格雷西。
Hicks and Gracie, yeah.
希克斯和格雷西，是的。
43:07 So, I like to match looks from time to time-
所以，我时常喜欢搭配造型——
Thank you, thank you.
谢谢，谢谢。
…
……
43:12 in an homage.
以表达敬意。
You look sexy.
你看起来很性感。
It’s comfortable, actually, I enjoy it.
这很舒服，事实上，我很享受。
Yeah.
是的。
43:16 You should keep it.
你应该保留它。
I’ll only we wear this now.
我现在就只穿这个。
43:18 I’ll wear this for the Gabi match.
我会穿这个去参加加比比赛。
Yeah, we’re trying to do a documentary series because the way I see it is I want to grow the sport of jiu-jitsu.
是的，我们正在尝试制作一个纪录片系列，因为我认为我想发展柔术运动。
And this sounds funny to say now because I’m doing a tournament but everyone tries to do it through competition.
现在说起来很有趣，因为我正在参加一场锦标赛，但每个人都试图通过竞争来做到这一点。
But as we know, most jiu-jitsu gyms you visit, a very small percentage of people compete, let alone compete regularly.
但正如我们所知，您访问的大多数柔术馆中，只有很少一部分人参加比赛，更不用说定期参加比赛了。
You’ll go to gyms that could be brown or black belts that don’t know many of the big name competitors.
你会去的健身房可能是棕带或黑带，但很多大牌选手都不认识。
So, my thoughts were we’re never going to grow this sport by competition, we’re going to grow it by appealing to the large majority of people that do it which are just people that enjoy it for the benefits it provides to them whether health or psychological.
所以，我的想法是，我们永远不会通过竞争来发展这项运动，我们将通过吸引绝大多数从事这项运动的人来发展它，这些人只是因为它为他们带来的健康或心理上的好处而享受它的人。
44:04 And obviously, many people are inspired by Anthony Bourdain, basically it’s looking at what he did with food by showing the very interesting characters in the food culture, the food industries, especially with street food, and building around that.
显然，很多人都受到安东尼·波登的启发，基本上是通过展示饮食文化、食品工业，特别是街头食品中非常有趣的人物来观察他对食物所做的事情，并围绕这些进行构建。
So, I’m trying to look at jiu-jitsu like a giant cult.
所以，我试图将柔术视为一个巨大的邪教。
Scientology isn’t starting with Planet Xenu, it’s starting with John Travolta and Tom Cruise.
山达基并不是从 Xenu 星球开始的，而是从约翰·特拉沃尔塔和汤姆·克鲁斯开始的。
So, if we can create a documentary travel series highlighting the diverse, interesting people that participate in the sport, in that sense, I hope it can grow but also doing some charity work along the way.
因此，如果我们可以制作一个纪实旅行系列，重点突出参与这项运动的多元化、有趣的人，从这个意义上说，我希望它能够发展，同时也能做一些慈善工作。
We’ll release the Indonesia Bali episode pretty soon but, as an Australian, I do do a lot of damage culturally around the world so I’d like to do some good as well.
我们很快就会发布印度尼西亚巴厘岛这一集，但作为一名澳大利亚人，我确实对世界各地的文化造成了很多损害，所以我也想做一些好事。
44:50 We’ve done a lot of damage to Bali, so give back to local communities.
我们对巴厘岛造成了很大的破坏，所以要回馈当地社区。
We have an Australian there that runs an academy, Akademi Kristus, he’s one of the guys we’re donating a portion of the ticket sales to from our event but he basically went straight into a Balinese slum, started teaching jiu-jitsu on a mat under a tree and then slowly, through donations, has built a gym.
我们有一个澳大利亚人在那里经营着一家学院，Akademi Kristus，他是我们从我们的活动中捐赠一部分门票收入的人之一，但他基本上直接进入巴厘岛的贫民窟，开始在树下的垫子上教柔术，然后慢慢地通过捐款建造了一个健身房。
And his real focus is not just taking money from people and gifting it to them to help the community but to teach them skills.
他真正关注的不仅仅是从人们那里拿钱并将其赠送给他们来帮助社区，而是教他们技能。
So, he’ll take a lot of the disadvantaged kids and he’ll teach them things like photo editing so they can get that work from the internet, really.
所以，他会带很多弱势孩子，教他们照片编辑之类的东西，这样他们就可以从互联网上获得这些工作，真的。
Incredible guy.
不可思议的家伙。
It’s good to know that you see yourself as the John Travolta of jiu-jitsu.
很高兴知道您将自己视为柔术界的约翰·特拉沃尔塔。
Many masseuses have accused me of the same thing, unfortunately.
不幸的是，许多按摩师也指责我同样的事情。
45:34 All lies.
都是谎言。
Yeah, there’s a lot of similarities between the two of you.
是的，你们两个之间有很多相似之处。
45:39 So, you mentioned Anthony Bourdain.
所以，你提到了安东尼·波登。
What do you like about the guy?
你喜欢这个家伙什么？
What do you find inspiring and instructive about the way he was able to, as you said, scratch beneath the surface of a place?
正如您所说，他能够深入到一个地方的表面之下，您认为这种方式有什么启发性和启发性？
I just felt like he was very authentic, wasn’t afraid.
我只是觉得他很真实，一点也不害怕。
45:56 This is something I had trouble with when we first started doing the travel show, it’s easy to do a travel show if you only say positive things about a place.
这是我们刚开始做旅游节目时遇到的问题，如果你只说一个地方的积极方面，做旅游节目很容易。
But he would find a very creative way to show what’s good and bad, a very honest reflection of the place so that’s something I would strive to do.
但他会找到一种非常有创意的方式来展示好与坏，非常诚实地反映这个地方，所以这是我会努力做的事情。
However, in some places, it’s very difficult.
然而，在某些地方，这是非常困难的。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
For example, Kazakhstan, if I were to say something negative about Kazakhstan, they’d be like, “Who’s this foreign idiot talking about our culture?” And I think that was what was incredible about Bourdain is he could talk about both the good and bad of places and he would do it in such a way that it was tasteful and was respected by the locals.
例如，哈萨克斯坦，如果我要说一些关于哈萨克斯坦的负面言论，他们会说，“这个谈论我们文化的外国白痴是谁？”我认为布尔登令人难以置信的地方在于，他可以谈论地方的好坏，而且他会以一种有品味并受到当地人尊重的方式来谈论。
Yeah, that’s actually a skill that you’re incredibly good at.
是的，这实际上是一项你非常擅长的技能。
46:38 You make fun of a lot of people but there’s something …
你取笑了很多人，但有一些事情......
Maybe there’s an underlying respect, maybe it’s the accent, maybe …
也许有一种潜在的尊重，也许是口音，也许......
I don’t know what it is.
我不知道那是什么。
There’s a love underneath your trolling.
你的恶搞背后隐藏着一种爱。
I like to think so.
我喜欢这样认为。
46:52 Hopefully, yeah.
希望是的。
Gabi Garcia, there’s a deep passionate love underneath the trolling.
加比·加西亚（Gabi Garcia），恶搞背后隐藏着深深的热爱。
Yeah.
是的。
47:00 Speaking of which, let’s talk about CJI.
说到这里，我们来谈谈CJI。
You’re putting on the CJI tournament, it’s in about a week, same weekend as ADCC, $3 million budget, two divisions, two super fights, winner of each division gets $1 million, everyone gets $10,000.
你要举办 CJI 锦标赛，大约一周后，与 ADCC 同一周末，预算 300 万美元，两个分区，两场超级比赛，每个分区的获胜者获得 100 万美元，每个人获得 10,000 美元。
How do you even say that?
你怎么说呢？
Plus one?
加一？
10,000 plus one, yeah.
一万加一，是的。
Plus one.
加一。
47:25 Just to compete.
只是为了竞争。
So, it’s August 16th and 17th, everybody should get tickets.
所以，现在是8月16日和17日，大家都应该买票了。
Same weekend as ADCC’s which is August 17th.
与 ADCC 的周末相同，即 8 月 17 日。
Okay.
好的。
So, what’s the mission of what you’re doing there?
那么，您在那里所做的任务是什么？
The mission has always been, first and foremost, increased athlete pay.
我们的首要任务始终是增加运动员的工资。
47:39 So, ADCC has invested a ton into the sport.
因此，ADCC 对这项运动投入了大量资金。
Obviously, I mentioned Sheikh Tahnoun, Sheikh Tahnoun has done so much for the sport of grappling, particularly no-Gi grappling.
显然，我提到了谢赫·塔农 (Sheikh Tahnoun)，谢赫·塔农 (Sheikh Tahnoun) 为格斗运动，尤其是无道术格斗运动做出了很多贡献。
So, he’s growing it, he has funded this for a very, very long time but we’ve hit a point since 2017 where the audience, the crowd watching live and at home behind a paywall has grown considerably.
所以，他正在发展它，他已经资助了很长一段时间，但自 2017 年以来，我们已经达到了这样一个阶段：观众、观看现场直播和在家观看付费墙的人群大幅增长。
We had things like Metamoris, we had the Eddie Bravo Invitational, Polaris, all these professional events that have also contributed to growing the sport.
我们举办了像 Metamoris、Eddie Bravo 邀请赛、Polaris 这样的职业赛事，所有这些职业赛事也都为这项运动的发展做出了贡献。
And obviously, people like Gordon Ryan have definitely increased the popularity of the sport but the payment for ADCC has never gone up despite, again, the growth of it.
显然，像戈登·瑞安这样的人确实提高了这项运动的受欢迎程度，但 ADCC 的报酬却从未增加，尽管它再次增长。
48:34 So, what I did, a lot of fans were asking me earlier in the year, they said, “Craig, are you going to do ADCC?” and I said, “That is a big commitment of time, energy, expenses on steroids to get my body ready for a tournament that I’ll probably lose.” And if I lose on day one, I make $0.
所以，我做了什么，很多粉丝在今年早些时候问我，他们说，“克雷格，你要去 ADCC 吗？”我说：“为了让我的身体为一场我可能会输掉的比赛做好准备，我需要投入大量的时间、精力和类固醇费用。”如果我第一天就输了，我就赚 0 美元。
If I lose in the final, which I have done a couple times, I only get $6,000.
如果我在决赛中输掉比赛（我已经输过几次了），我只能得到 6,000 美元。
I think third place is 3,000, fourth place is 1,000.
我觉得第三名是3000，第四名是1000。
So, if you make day two, you get paid.
所以，如果你第二天能完成任务，你就会得到报酬。
But for me personally, seeing ADCC in 2022, you’re looking out to a sold out crowd of 10,000 people.
但就我个人而言，观看 2022 年 ADCC 时，您会看到 10,000 名观众的门票全部售罄。
It’s on FloGrappling which you know paid quite a bit of money for the streaming rights, I can’t comment on what that number would be, and then you go home, despite having put in all that effort, with only 6,000 and they basically …
这是在 FloGrappling 上，你知道它为流媒体版权支付了相当多的钱，我无法评论这个数字是多少，然后你就回家了，尽管付出了所有的努力，但只有 6,000 个，他们基本上......
The argument is you’re paid in exposure.
争论的焦点是你的报酬是通过曝光来获得的。
But again, there’s many ways to expose yourself.
但同样，暴露自己的方法有很多。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
That’s just one of the platforms to do so.
这只是这样做的平台之一。
My problem was that they announced that they were going to go from Thomas & Mack to T-Mobile which is a jump in quality of stadium but not a significant jump in seating.
我的问题是，他们宣布将从 Thomas & Mack 转到 T-Mobile，这是体育场质量的飞跃，但座位数量并没有显着增加。
So, we’ve gone from 11,000 seat arena to I think a 15, 16,000 seat arena.
所以，我们已经从 11,000 个座位的竞技场变成了 15、16,000 个座位的竞技场。
And I knew that FloGrappling would’ve had to pay more money because now the sport’s growing so much and I can personally track the growth of the sport through selling instructional DVDs, instructional online products.
我知道 FloGrappling 必须支付更多的钱，因为现在这项运动发展如此之快，我可以通过销售教学 DVD、教学在线产品来亲自跟踪这项运动的发展。
Because that keeps growing and we’re targeting those white and blue belts vulnerable to internet marketing and that audience continues to grow and those will be the people that largely watch ADCC, events like this.
因为这个数字在不断增长，我们的目标是那些容易受到网络营销影响的白带和蓝带，而且观众也在不断增长，而这些人将是主要观看 ADCC 等活动的人。
50:19 So, I simply said, in response to a lot of fans asking me, “Are you going to do ADCC?” and I just simply made a video saying, “No, probably not, probably not.
所以，当很多粉丝问我“你要去ADCC吗？”时，我只是简单地说。我只是简单地制作了一个视频说：“不，可能不会，可能不会。
It’d be nice to make some more money.” And then I listed a bunch of sports, such as cockbar, that you get paid more to win cockbar.
如果能多赚点钱就好了。”然后我列出了一系列运动，例如 cockbar，如果你赢得 cockbar，你会得到更多的报酬。
In the villages of Kazakhstan, the payment structures higher.
在哈萨克斯坦的村庄，支付结构较高。
And I received a very aggressive response not from any of Sheikh Tahnoun’s people but from, basically, who runs the event today.
我收到了非常积极的回应，不是来自谢赫·塔农的任何人，而是基本上来自今天活动的主持者。
One of those guys amongst giving me death threats said, “Hey, T-Mobile costs $2 million, you don’t know what you’re talking about in terms of business and production.” And he’s probably right but, to me, $2 million is a waste of money for a jiu-jitsu event, I don’t think we’re at that level yet.
其中一位向我发出死亡威胁的人说：“嘿，T-Mobile 的成本为 200 万美元，你不知道自己在谈论什么业务和生产。”他可能是对的，但对我来说，200 万美元对于一场柔术赛事来说是浪费钱，我认为我们还没有达到那个水平。
That’s where the UFC hosts events.
这里是 UFC 举办赛事的地方。
$2 million, that’s an expensive, expensive venue.
200万美元，那是一个非常非常昂贵的场地。
51:10 So, we argued a bit on the internet and he said, “Hey, if you don’t like it, why don’t you go get $2 million and put on your own tournament?” And I said, “I might just do that.” And one of my anonymous friends kindly donated a $3 million budget and I actually messaged him before the show to say, “Hey, we won’t reveal your identity,” because, obviously, anyone that has money is going to get asked for more money or ask for money from others.
所以，我们在网上争论了一会儿，他说，“嘿，如果你不喜欢它，为什么你不去拿 200 万美元，举办你自己的锦标赛呢？”我说：“我可能会这么做。”我的一位匿名朋友好心地捐赠了 300 万美元的预算，实际上我在演出前给他发了消息说，“嘿，我们不会透露你的身份，”因为，显然，任何有钱的人都会被要求更多的钱或向其他人索要钱。
So, he wants to remain anonymous but he basically just said to enjoy the trolling aspect of it and also contribute to the sport of jiu-jitsu.
所以，他想保持匿名，但他基本上只是说享受其中的恶搞方面，并为柔术运动做出贡献。
Well, that’s good to know that the anonymous funder appreciates you for who you are, Craig Jones.
嗯，很高兴知道匿名资助者欣赏你的身份，克雷格·琼斯。
He sees my true identity and he wants to provoke …
他看出了我的真实身份，想要挑衅……
51:52 It’s trolling for a good cause.
这是为了一个好的理由。
But basically we were able to find Thomas & Mack Event Center, which was their original venue, and it just happened to be available that same weekend which we’re very happy about.
但基本上我们找到了托马斯马克活动中心，这是他们原来的场地，而且恰好在同一个周末开放，我们对此感到非常高兴。
And so, we booked that out, we decided to …
所以，我们预订了，我们决定……
ADCC pays 10,000 to the winner, we were like, “You know what?
ADCC 向获胜者支付 10,000 美元，我们当时想，“你知道吗？
We’ll pay $10,000 plus one to show up.” So, to show up in our event, you’re going to get paid more than to win ADCC.
我们将支付 10,000 美元，另加一人出席。”因此，参加我们的活动，您将获得比赢得 ADCC 更高的报酬。
And not only that, we’re going to broadcast it for free.
不仅如此，我们还将免费播放它。
So, on Meta, X and YouTube, you’ll be able to watch this event for free.
因此，您可以在 Meta、X 和 YouTube 上免费观看此活动。
That’s amazing.
太棒了。
It’s very considerate to the FloGrappling streaming platform, I believe, to have also a free alternative on the same weekend.
我认为 FloGrappling 流媒体平台非常体贴，在同一个周末还提供免费的替代方案。
52:32 And the brilliance of this whole thing is I was largely criticized for not knowing anything about business but the people criticizing me decided to host a tournament, a 15,000 seat arena, they decided to take sponsors, they decided to use a streaming platform which sells subscriptions based on the athletes that would enter it but not give any of the talent, the athletes, a contract which gave me this beautiful position to basically say, “Hey, what do you prefer?
这整件事的精彩之处在于，我因对商业一无所知而受到批评，但批评我的人决定主办一场锦标赛，一个有 15,000 个座位的竞技场，他们决定接受赞助商，他们决定使用一个流媒体平台，该平台根据将要参加的运动员出售订阅，但不给任何人才、运动员一份合同，这给了我这个美好的位置，基本上可以说，“嘿，你更喜欢什么？
The prestige of an ADCC gold medal or money?” And that’s the feud so far and we put that out into the world.
ADCC金牌的威望还是金钱？”这就是迄今为止的不和，我们将其公之于众。
53:18 I didn’t chase too many athletes down.
我没有追赶太多运动员。
Obviously, a lot of these guys really need money.
显然，这些人中有很多人确实需要钱。
So, you throw a million dollars out there, people are jumping on board.
所以，你投入一百万美元，人们就会纷纷加入。
So, initially we started getting, we got two local guys here in Austin, the Tackett brothers, they jumped in first and they’re great kids.
所以，最初我们开始，我们在奥斯汀找到了两个当地人，塔克特兄弟，他们首先加入进来，他们都是很棒的孩子。
They really legitimize the whole thing because, if we’d pick certain athletes, just B team guys straight away, it’s already looking a bit dodgy but we’ve got some legitimate athletes.
他们确实使整个事情合法化，因为如果我们直接挑选某些运动员，只是 B 队的球员，这看起来已经有点狡猾了，但我们有一些合法的运动员。
Especially the under 80 kilo divisions, full of, minus two or three guys, that’s the best people in the world in that weight division.
尤其是80公斤级以下的级别，充满了两到三个人，他们是该重量级世界上最好的人。
And as we started to grow our roster here, what happened, I’m going to say this, allegedly, for legal reasons, is that the first move ADCC did was they matched the female pay to the men’s pay.
当我们开始扩大我们的名单时，发生了什么事，我要说的是，据称，出于法律原因，ADCC 所做的第一步就是将女性薪酬与男性薪酬相匹配。
54:07 So, the women always traditionally got paid less, I think $6,000 for first place.
因此，传统上女性的报酬总是较低，我认为第一名的报酬是 6,000 美元。
As soon as we had Ffion Davies, the reigning champion, come across to do a super fight with us, bang, ADCC raised the prize money of the women’s division to equal the men’s.
当卫冕冠军菲昂·戴维斯过来和我们打一场超级大战的时候，嘭的一声，ADCC把女子组的奖金提高到了男子组的奖金水平。
So, me, being a feminist activist throughout many of my years on this earth, immediately got women’s pay raised in the sport of jiu-jitsu, equalize basically, which went counter to everything the promoter had said because he said it was out of his control.
因此，我作为一名女权活动家，在地球上生活了很多年，立即提高了柔术运动中女性的工资，基本上实现了平等，这与发起人所说的一切背道而驰，因为他说这超出了他的控制范围。
To raise money, he said only the ADCC, I guess coming directly from the Sheikh or the Sheikh’s guys, could raise the prize money, he got it raised.
为了筹集资金，他说只有 ADCC（我猜直接来自酋长或酋长的手下）才能筹集奖金，他筹集到了奖金。
54:46 And then what happened was, once we started getting some of these big names here, so some of the best guys from ADCC would be in this division.
然后发生的事情是，一旦我们开始在这里引进一些大牌球员，那么来自 ADCC 的一些最好的球员就会进入这个部门。
We’ve got a bunch of champions or medalists or, really, the top betting favorites for their divisions there, they started, and again, I can’t emphasize this enough, allegedly, paying show money which has never historically been done before to keep athletes in their show.
我们有一群冠军或奖牌获得者，或者说真的，他们所在部门的最佳投注热门，他们开始了，我再次强调这一点，据称，支付表演费用，这是历史上从未做过的，以让运动员留在他们的表演中。
So, you’re saying, allegedly, there were some under the table payments by ADCC?
那么，您是说，据称 ADCC 进行了一些私下付款？
55:10 Do you have secret documents proving this?
你有秘密文件证明这一点吗？
I do have the documents.
我确实有文件。
Okay.
好的。
Now, some of the guys obviously told me, you know how it is, you slap million dollars on the table, it looks great.
现在，有些人显然告诉我，你知道那是怎么回事，你把一百万美元拍在桌子上，看起来很棒。
55:19 That was me proving I had the money, which wasn’t even my money to begin with, but it was basically me saying, “Hey, the money’s real”.
那是我证明我有钱，这甚至不是我的钱，但基本上是我在说，“嘿，钱是真的”。
I don’t know why but, strangely, a lot of people don’t believe me when I’m telling the truth.
我不知道为什么，但奇怪的是，当我说实话时，很多人不相信我。
I don’t know why they wouldn’t.
我不知道他们为什么不这样做。
But what logically happens is they’re like, “Oh, look how much money he has.
但从逻辑上讲，他们会说，“哦，看看他有多少钱。
55:34 Give us more show money,” so they’re negotiating with me.
给我们更多的演出费用，”所以他们正在和我谈判。
There was one particular Brazilian businessman manager, I won’t say his name, but he looks like the thing from Fantastic Four and he was a manager for some of these athletes and he would take a massive 20% cut.
有一位特别的巴西商人经理，我不会说出他的名字，但他看起来就像《神奇四侠》中的那个人，他是其中一些运动员的经理，他会收取 20% 的巨额佣金。
So, what he, and I got to pay respect to this because it actually caused trauma to the other team as well, but I would invite an athlete to CJI, he would go to the other organization and he would say to them, “Hey, what sort of deal could you give me to keep this guy?
所以，他和我必须对此表示尊重，因为这实际上也给其他球队造成了创伤，但我会邀请一名运动员加入 CJI，他会去另一个组织，他会对他们说，“嘿，你能给我什么样的交易来留住这个家伙？
You want to keep him in your event?” And he would use CJI to leverage more show money for his guys of which he gets to grease the wheels with 20% for himself.
你想让他继续参加你的活动吗？”他会利用 CJI 为他的队员争取更多的演出资金，其中 20% 是他自己用的。
56:27 However, at CJI, everyone gets $10,001 across the board and a million dollars prize money so there’s no room for, really, negotiation for the tournament aspect of us.
然而，在 CJI，每个人都能获得 10,001 美元的总奖金和 100 万美元的奖金，因此我们在锦标赛方面没有任何谈判的空间。
So, he has a vested interest in putting his guys in ADCC because he can negotiate show money and he can basically take 20% of that for himself.
所以，让他的球员加入ADCC对他来说是有既得利益的，因为他可以协商演出费用，而且他基本上可以为自己拿走其中的20%。
But really, for the sport of grappling, this is incredible across the board because, by us stealing or at least borrowing a bunch of athletes from ADCC, ADCC had to fill their divisions.
但实际上，对于格斗运动来说，这在整体上都是令人难以置信的，因为通过我们从 ADCC 窃取或至少借用一批运动员，ADCC 必须填补他们的空缺。
So, they filled their divisions with many other competitors that wouldn’t have ordinarily had the chance to do ADCC.
因此，他们在自己的部门中加入了许多其他通常没有机会参加 ADCC 的竞争对手。
And really, although we’ve scheduled it the same weekend, ours is actually Friday, Saturday, ADCC being Saturday, Sunday, our day starts pretty late.
事实上，虽然我们安排在同一个周末，但我们的实际上是周五、周六，ADCC 是周六、周日，我们的一天开始得很晚。
So, we start 5:00 PM Saturday.
所以，我们周六下午 5:00 开始。
57:18 So, really, ultimately it was a big marketing ploy to go head-to-head pretending like we’re making the fans choose but the fans will be able to watch both events.
所以，实际上，最终这是一个巨大的营销策略，假装我们让球迷做出选择，但球迷将能够观看这两场比赛。
You’ll be able to go all day Friday for us.
周五你可以为我们工作一整天。
You’ll sadly miss the ADCC Hall of Fame ceremony where you’ll see many of great speakers, public speakers, philosophers tell their stories about hardship just like at the end of any jiu-jitsu seminar or beginning if you’re blessed like that.
您会遗憾地错过 ADCC 名人堂仪式，在那里您会看到许多伟大的演讲者、公共演讲者、哲学家讲述他们关于苦难的故事，就像在任何柔术研讨会结束或开始时一样，如果您有这样的祝福的话。
You might have a 45-minute monologue about how they’re more knowledgeable than doctors, lawyers, classic black belt technique.
你可能会进行 45 分钟的独白，讲述他们如何比医生、律师和经典的黑带技术更有知识。
But you will miss that, unfortunately.
但不幸的是，你会错过这一点。
With great metaphors about lions and-
关于狮子的精彩隐喻和——
About lions, yes.
关于狮子，是的。
57:55 About being a humble lion most importantly.
最重要的是成为一只谦虚的狮子。
Humility is important.
谦虚很重要。
But you can watch all that Friday, you could watch most of ADCC Saturday.
但周五你可以观看全部内容，周六你可以观看 ADCC 的大部分内容。
58:00 And then Saturday night, in Las Vegas, I’ll be doing what many men have done before and that is wrestling a giant woman.
然后周六晚上，在拉斯维加斯，我将做许多男人以前做过的事情，那就是与一个巨大的女人摔跤。
Can you speak to that?
你能谈谈吗？
58:16 How are you preparing for this moment of violence on a Saturday night with Gabi Garcia?
你准备如何应对周六晚上与加比·加西亚的暴力时刻？
So, Gabi Garcia is the legend of women’s grappling.
所以，加比·加西亚是女子格斗界的传奇人物。
58:24 I think she’s won more than anyone else.
我认为她比任何人都赢得了更多。
So, between me and her, we would at least have 15 to 20 world championships, I’d imagine.
所以，我想，我和她之间，我们至少会获得 15 到 20 个世界冠军。
She’s huge, I say that in an endearing way.
她很大，我用一种可爱的方式这么说。
She might be 6″4′, 6″3′ and her weight varies depending on what time of the day it is between 220 and 275 pounds but she’s going to be coming in quite big and strong.
她的身高可能为 6 英寸 4 英尺、6 英寸 3 英尺，体重根据一天中的不同时间而变化，在 220 磅到 275 磅之间，但她会变得非常大且强壮。
Me, I am about 179 pounds right now and at 5″11′.
我现在体重约为 179 磅，身高 5 英寸 11 英尺。
So, I’ve got a significant size disadvantage, she has the credentials but we’re going to scrap it out, scrap it out and see who’s best, the greatest woman’s competitor of all time or a guy that’s never won anything.
所以，我在身材上有很大的劣势，她有资格，但我们要把它淘汰，淘汰它，看看谁是最好的，有史以来最伟大的女性竞争对手，还是一个从未赢得过任何东西的男人。
Has it added some complexity to the picture that there’s some sexual tension in the room whenever the two of you are together?
每当你们两个在一起时，房间里就会出现一些性紧张，这是否增加了画面的复杂性？
Yeah.
是的。
Or maybe I’m being romantic but it seems like you’ve slowly started to fall in love with each other.
或者也许我很浪漫，但你们似乎已经慢慢地开始爱上对方了。
It’s been three years of seduction, it’s been a long time.
三年的诱惑，已经过去了很长一段时间。
It’s inspiring for many young men that follow you and look up to you.
这对许多追随你、尊敬你的年轻人来说是鼓舞人心的。
59:33 Just the romantic journey that you’ve been on, it’s truly inspiring.
只是你所经历的浪漫之旅，确实令人鼓舞。
Yeah, I would say it’s a motivational message to the guy that keeps sending DMs to a girl on Instagram for years that maybe, after three years, it could also happen for you too.
是的，我想说，对于多年来不断在 Instagram 上向女孩发送私信的人来说，这是一条激励信息，也许三年后，这也可能发生在你身上。
59:43 No matter her height and weight, I think persistence is the key here.
无论她的身高和体重如何，我认为坚持是关键。
Yeah.
是的。
And we do have a wager on the line.
我们确实有一个赌注。
What’s the wager?
赌注是什么？
This might be the first wager of its kind, I would hope, in combat sports history.
我希望，这可能是格斗运动史上的第一次此类赌注。
1:00:06 If she wins, I’ll personally give her a million dollars.
如果她赢了，我会亲自给她一百万美元。
If I can footlock her, we’re going to collaborate together in an OnlyFans sex tape.
如果我能锁住她，我们就能一起合作录制 OnlyFans 性爱录像带。
Did she agree to this?
她同意这个吗？
She shook on it.
她对此感到震惊。
Great.
太棒了。
1:00:29 You do have an OnlyFans channel, is that still up?
你们有一个 OnlyFans 频道，还在吗？
After August 17th, it’s going to be fire.
8月17日之后，就要火了。
It’s going to be on fire.
它会着火的。
Yeah.
是的。
Wow.
哇。
I think that and, honestly, when we talk about secret investor, I think that could fund the entire tournament.
我认为，老实说，当我们谈论秘密投资者时，我认为这可以为整个锦标赛提供资金。
1:00:38 It’d be that success.
这就是成功。
That’ll be the only paywalled thing about this tournament is your OnlyFans.
这将是本次锦标赛唯一需要付费的东西就是你的 OnlyFans。
Yeah, it’s going to be a spiritual experience for me.
是的，这对我来说将是一次精神体验。
Yeah, wow.
是的，哇。
1:00:51 Okay, I’m fully distracted now.
好吧，我现在完全心烦意乱了。
Can you talk about the rule set?
能谈谈规则吗？
So, we’re using the angled walls inspired by karate combat.
因此，我们使用受空手道格斗启发的倾斜墙。
1:00:59 Karate combat did those angled walls.
空手道战斗完成了那些有角度的墙壁。
Those are awesome.
那些太棒了。
1:01:07 You’re calling it the alley.
你管它叫小巷。
That’s really, really interesting.
这真的非常非常有趣。
So, it’s like in a pit, I guess, and the angled walls are-
所以，我猜这就像在一个坑里，而倾斜的墙壁是——
Yeah.
是的。
1:01:14 So, karate combat have a square pit, we have a rectangular alley.
所以，空手道格斗有一个方形的坑，我们有一个矩形的巷子。
We like the visual of just you’re in the alley with someone you know.
我们喜欢您和认识的人在巷子里的视觉效果。
We both know what goes on in an alley, I know a couple of things that could go on back there.
我们都知道小巷里发生的事情，我知道那里可能会发生一些事情。
What’s second thing?
第二件事是什么？
1:01:27 Nevermind, I got it.
没关系，我明白了。
But why this is brilliant, why the angled walls are brilliant for grappling is because any grappling tournament, this goes without question, this goes for IBJJF, ADCC, the reset is one of the most annoying aspects of the sport and one of the aspects of the sport that some of the sneakier guys take advantage of.
但为什么这很出色，为什么倾斜的墙对于擒抱来说很出色，因为任何擒抱比赛，这都是毫无疑问的，这适用于 IBJJF、ADCC，重置是这项运动中最烦人的方面之一，也是一些狡猾的家伙利用这项运动的方面之一。
1:01:30 There’s guys out there that are brilliant at playing the edge open, the ref will reset them or they’ll shoot a takedown near the edge and you might watch …
有些人在边缘空位方面表现出色，裁判会重置他们，或者他们会在边缘附近进行击倒，你可能会看到......
And, again, I’m picking on ADCC here.
我再次强调 ADCC。
But you might watch an ADCC match where 90 seconds of a 10-minute match is the referee grabbing them, bringing them back to the center or trying to recreate something of a position that landed outside.
但你可能会观看一场 ADCC 比赛，其中 10 分钟的比赛中有 90 秒是裁判抓住他们，将他们带回中心或试图重新创建落在外侧的位置。
Not only is that boring to me and it could be bias.
这不仅对我来说很无聊，而且可能是偏见。
Again, it’s happened to me in events where the ref’s gone, “Stop,” I’ve stopped, he’s moved a little bit more and then there’s an adjustment in the reset.
再次，这种情况发生在我身上，在裁判走了的情况下，“停止”，我停止了，他移动了一点，然后在重置中进行了调整。
It’s cheating to a certain extent but it’s just more of an annoyance.
这在某种程度上是作弊，但更多的是一种烦恼。
They bring it back, they reset it to the best of their ability in the center.
他们把它带回来，并尽其所能将其重置在中心。
1:02:35 The angled wall mitigates that and it mitigates it in such a way that it’s a disadvantage to be pushed up against the angled wall.
倾斜的墙壁缓解了这种情况，并且以这样的方式缓解了这种情况：将其推到倾斜的墙壁上是不利的。
You’re very easily taken down against the angled wall.
你很容易被撞到有角度的墙上。
You could use a cage like the UFC does or any MMA organization, however, cage wrestling can be slow.
您可以像 UFC 或任何 MMA 组织那样使用笼子，但是笼式摔跤可能会很慢。
You’re obviously at the vertical and it can stagnate there, guys are very good at using split squats to really defend that position.
显然你处于垂直位置，它可能会停滞在那里，人们非常擅长使用分腿深蹲来真正防守这个位置。
And for me, personally, I don’t love the cage for grappling, I’d like to differentiate it for grappling.
对我个人而言，我不喜欢用于擒抱的笼子，我想将其区别于擒抱。
What holds people back from using the alley or a pit-like structure is the viewing, the viewing angle.
阻碍人们使用小巷或坑状结构的是观看角度。
Because obviously, if you are one of the VIPs or you pay for an expensive seat, that angled wall is above you.
因为显然，如果您是 VIP 之一或者您支付了昂贵的座位，那么那面倾斜的墙就在您上方。
A cage, you can see into, an elevated platform stage you can see clearly into because it’s basically flat but the athletes could fall off and injure themselves.
一个笼子，你可以看到里面，一个可以清楚地看到里面的高架平台舞台，因为它基本上是平坦的，但运动员可能会摔下来并受伤。
1:03:32 So, if something happens, UFC fire passes the elevated flat stage.
所以，如果发生什么事情，UFC的火力就会通过高架平坦的舞台。
It’s scary to be near the edge, you go off, you’re going to land on concrete.
靠近边缘是很可怕的，你离开了，你就会落在混凝土上。
You might want to do that to the other guy if you, that way, inclined.
如果你愿意的话，你可能想对另一个人这样做。
But the alley, the angled wall solves all those problems, very minimal referee interference.
但小巷、倾斜的墙壁解决了所有这些问题，裁判的干扰非常小。
Again, the only thing that holds people back is the expense of building it.
同样，唯一阻碍人们前进的是建造它的费用。
But again, when you’re spending someone else’s money, you will spare no expense in production.
但话又说回来，当你花别人的钱时，你就会不遗余力地生产。
So, we’ve spent a lot of money on the alley and we’ve really gone out of our way to create an experience that, around the alley, we’ve elevated everything so that the people watching will be able to see down into it.
所以，我们在小巷上花了很多钱，我们真的不遗余力地创造了一种体验，在小巷周围，我们提升了一切，以便观看的人能够看到它。
Because your instinctual thought is, “Oh, it sounds great but how am I going to see in it unless I’m far up?” You’d need a coliseum-like structure which is basically what we’ve attempted to create so that you get both a perfect place to wrestle, to grapple in as well as a perfect viewing angle for the fans.
因为你的本能想法是：“哦，听起来不错，但除非我在很远的地方，否则我怎么能看到它呢？”你需要一个类似体育馆的结构，这基本上就是我们试图创造的，这样你既可以得到一个完美的摔跤场所，也可以为球迷提供一个完美的观看角度。
Well, I think it’s an amazing idea.
嗯，我认为这是一个很棒的主意。
1:04:32 What about the jiu-jitsu on a slant?
倾斜柔术怎么样？
You’ve triangled somebody on a slant.
你已经倾斜某人了。
Yes.
是的。
Is there some interesting aspects about the actual detailed techniques of how to be effective using a slant?
关于如何有效地使用倾斜的实际详细技术是否有一些有趣的方面？
I’ll be honest, I competed for karate combat twice, never once did I ever step foot into the pit.
说实话，我参加过两次空手道比赛，但从来没有踏进过坑。
1:04:46 Just, again, like you said before the podcast, if there’s a right way of doing things, I’m probably doing it the opposite.
只是，再次，就像你在播客之前所说的那样，如果有正确的做事方式，我可能会采取相反的做法。
The wrong way.
方法错误。
1:04:59 I actually no idea why people take advice from you but they do.
我实际上不知道为什么人们会接受你的建议，但他们确实这么做了。
I’m mostly an inspirational speaker at this point, I think.
我认为，目前我主要是一个鼓舞人心的演讲者。
Yeah.
是的。
1:05:07 You and Tony Robbins are like this.
你和托尼·罗宾斯就是这样。
Same size at least.
至少尺寸一样。
1:05:10 But in terms of the training for, obviously, the athletes, it’s very difficult.
但就运动员的训练而言，显然是非常困难的。
Some of these guys have gone out there and built their own angled walls.
其中一些人已经走出去建造了自己的倾斜墙。
Yeah, I saw that.
是的，我看到了。
1:05:18 There’s a cool video of that.
有一个很酷的视频。
They’re getting into that.
他们正在进入这个领域。
1:05:20 That’s a smart thing to do.
这是一件明智的事情。
There’s a million dollars on the line, you should probably invest in that.
这里有一百万美元，你可能应该投资。
But I also like a new surface that no one’s competed on, no one’s gamed it yet, we’re going to see it unfold.
但我也喜欢一个没有人竞争过、没有人玩过的新表面，我们将看到它的展开。
UFC, when people started figuring out how to use the cage, we’re going to see this unfold in front of our very eyes how the strategies work for this.
UFC，当人们开始弄清楚如何使用笼子时，我们将看到这些策略如何在我们眼前展开。
The other thing we’ve done too is we’re doing rounds.
我们还做的另一件事是我们正在巡视。
So, qualifying rounds would be three five-minute rounds, the final would be five fives.
因此，资格赛将是三轮五分钟的比赛，决赛将是五轮五人制比赛。
Why I want to do that is to incentivize action.
我为什么要这样做是为了激励行动。
We’re going to incentivize action through penalizing people but we really want …
我们将通过惩罚人们来激励人们采取行动，但我们真的希望……
I love a short burst, a break and the guys can go hard again.
我喜欢短暂的爆发、休息，然后队员们可以再次努力。
I don’t like a jiu-jitsu match where the guy takes the back early and he’s like, “Oh, if I keep this position, I’ve won,” and that’s something that people that don’t compete don’t realize.
我不喜欢在柔术比赛中，对手提前反击，他会说，“哦，如果我保持这个位置，我就赢了。”而这是不参加比赛的人不会意识到的。
1:06:15 If you get a good position early, you get up on the points, you just sit there and go, “Oh, let’s ride this to the end.” That’s why I want rounds so that you might take the guy’s back, you’re really incentivize to get that finish.
如果你早早获得了一个好位置，你就会站起来，你就坐在那里然后说，“哦，让我们坚持到底吧。”这就是为什么我想要几轮比赛，这样你就可以把那个人带回来，你真的有动力去完成这个任务。
And the way we’re trying to grow the sport is to steal the MMA scoring structure which a lot of people criticize because they think it’s overly complicated, they don’t understand it.
我们试图发展这项运动的方式是窃取 MMA 评分结构，很多人批评这种评分结构，因为他们认为它过于复杂，他们不理解。
But to the mass audience, they understand a 10-point must understand a decision in that sense, they understand it being scored round by round.
但对于大众观众来说，他们明白 10 分必须理解这个意义上的决定，他们理解它是一轮一轮得分的。
So, we’re trying to appeal to a broader audience here but we think, based on the structure, based on how hard we’ll call stalling penalties, based on you wanting to finish your opponent quick to have a better chance at a million dollars.
所以，我们试图在这里吸引更广泛的受众，但我们认为，基于结构，基于我们所说的拖延处罚的严厉程度，基于你想要快速消灭对手以获得一百万美元的更好机会。
Because it’s 10,001 to show up and a million to win, if you aren’t first, you lost, there’s no reward for second place.
因为有 10,001 名参赛者，100 万名获胜者，如果你不是第一名，你就输了，第二名没有奖励。
So, I’m punishing the one position I’ve only ever been able to achieve in tournaments.
所以，我正在惩罚我只能在锦标赛中取得的一个位置。
Are you worried that, because of how much money is on the line, people will play careful?
您是否担心，因为有多少钱，人们会谨慎行事？
A very generous friend of mine has provided this money.
我的一位非常慷慨的朋友提供了这笔钱。
1:07:19 I’m like, “Unless you guys go out there and try to kill each other and put it all on the line, I just won’t do it again.
我想，“除非你们出去尝试互相残杀并将一切都置于危险之中，否则我不会再这样做了。
I’m giving you guys a massive platform”.
我为你们提供了一个巨大的平台”。
We’ve turned down offers from streaming platforms that wanted to buy the rights to this event because the marketing’s gone very well.
我们拒绝了想要购买本次活动转播权的流媒体平台的报价，因为营销进展非常顺利。
We’re turning down money to grow the sport.
我们拒绝资助这项运动的发展。
The ADCC promoter said he wanted to grow the sport so what he did is he put it behind a paywall and he used the money from the paywall to buy more expensive arena.
ADCC 发起人表示，他希望发展这项运动，因此他将其置于付费墙后面，并用付费墙的钱购买了更昂贵的体育场馆。
I don’t think that’s how you grow the sport, I think you grow the sport like comedians do these days.
我不认为这就是你发展这项运动的方式，我认为你像现在的喜剧演员那样发展这项运动。
Guys like Mark Normand will release a special for free, Andrew Schulz did it first, released a special for free-
像马克·诺曼德这样的人会免费发布特别节目，安德鲁·舒尔茨首先做到了，免费发布了特别节目 -
1:08:00 Norman will release a special for free.
诺曼将免费发布特别节目。
Andrew Schulz did it first, released a special for free and it grew his audience massively.
安德鲁·舒尔茨（Andrew Schulz）首先做到了这一点，免费发布了特别节目，这使得他的观众数量大幅增加。
I think that’s what jiu-jitsu needs.
我认为这就是柔术所需要的。
We need an exciting show that’s not behind a paywall that’ll grow the sport, grow the audience, and really then, ultimately, we can get to a level where it could be behind a paywall.
我们需要一个令人兴奋的、不需付费的节目来发展这项运动、增加观众，最终我们可以达到一个可以付费的水平。
But I just don’t think we’re there, yeah.
但我就是不认为我们在那里，是的。
Yeah, I think million dollars is a lot of money, but the opportunity here, because it’s open and freely accessible by everyone is to put on a show.
是的，我认为百万美元是很多钱，但这里的机会是举办一场表演，因为它是开放的，每个人都可以免费获得。
And then, you get a million every year.
然后，你每年都会得到一百万。
1:08:31 This is a crazy, exciting event.
这是一个疯狂而激动人心的事件。
The funding is going to be so easy year after year.
年复一年，融资将变得如此容易。
And the other aspect we’re doing to it is, unfortunately, I’m not going to make any money off this thing.
不幸的是，我们正在做的另一方面是，我不会从这件事上赚到任何钱。
It’s a nonprofit and the money from charity…
这是一个非营利组织，资金来自慈善机构……
Except the OnlyFans, but whatever.
除了OnlyFans，但无论如何。
Yeah, that’s the real cash cow.
是的，这才是真正的摇钱树。
1:08:49 But that’s the real work too.
但这也是真正的工作。
Yeah.
是的。
1:08:52 And that’s not for charity, that’s for your personal bank account, the OnlyFans.
这不是为了慈善事业，而是为了你的个人银行账户，OnlyFans。
Are you also…
你是否也……
So, that’ll be for the follow-up therapy.
所以，这将用于后续治疗。
1:08:58 But that’ll be expensive gig for whoever takes that on board.
但对于任何接受这一服务的人来说，这将是一笔昂贵的工作。
Love hurts.
爱很痛。
That physically will, yeah.
身体上会的，是的。
1:09:07 Ticket proceeds to charity.
门票将捐献给慈善机构。
So, obviously, we’ve got the $3 million budget, we’ve got production expenses, we’ve got the team of staff to hire.
所以，显然，我们有 300 万美元的预算，我们有制作费用，我们有需要雇用的员工团队。
But if we could sell this thing out, we could potentially donate a ton of money to charity.
但如果我们能把这个东西卖掉，我们就有可能向慈善机构捐赠大量资金。
One of those charities is Tap Cancer Out.
“Tap Cancer Out”就是这些慈善机构之一。
1:09:25 And what’s great about this is Rich Byrne is a black belt from New York, who’s in the banking world.
最棒的是里奇·伯恩 (Rich Byrne) 是来自纽约的黑带，在银行界工作。
He used to run an event called KASAI Grappling.
他曾经举办过一项名为“KASAI Grappling”的赛事。
He went through cancer.
他经历了癌症。
He basically had a very aggressive cancer.
他基本上患有一种非常侵袭性的癌症。
He had it treated.
他接受了治疗。
And now, he basically has said to us that whatever we donate from the profits of the event, he’s going to match dollar for dollar.
现在，他基本上对我们说，无论我们从活动的利润中捐赠什么，他都会一美元一美元地匹配。
1:09:49 And we’ve also had another guy who wants to remain anonymous, agree to match dollar for dollar as well.
我们还有另一个想要保持匿名的人，也同意以美元对美元进行匹配。
So, the more ticket sales revenue we can create here, the more we can actually give back to charity.
因此，我们在这里创造的门票销售收入越多，我们实际上可以回馈慈善事业的就越多。
So, it’s really all round.
所以，这真的是全方位的。
It’s going to be a great event.
这将是一次伟大的活动。
Yeah, Tap Cancer Out is great.
是的，《Tap Cancer Out》很棒。
1:10:04 And all the charities that the athletes have been selecting are great.
运动员们选择的所有慈善机构都很棒。
What’s been the hardest?
最难的是什么？
You are wearing a suit, so you figured out how to do that, but…
你穿着西装，所以你知道该怎么做，但是……
The tie was difficult for sure.
领带确实很困难。
Tie was difficult, but you figured it out and congratulations on that.
平局很困难，但你已经解决了，恭喜你。
1:10:15 But you’ve never run a tournament?
但你从来没有举办过锦标赛？
No.
不。
I’ve never wrestled a big woman either.
我也从来没有和一个大女人摔跤过。
1:10:24 Well, I have, but not in this form.
嗯，我有，但不是以这种形式。
Not in a competitive environment for OnlyFans.
不适用于 OnlyFans 的竞争环境。
1:10:30 What’s been the hardest aspects of actually bringing this to life?
实际实现这一点最困难的方面是什么？
The first one was people believing it was real.
第一个是人们相信这是真的。
Yeah.
是的。
That was quite difficult.
那是相当困难的。
1:10:40 And then, communicating with the athletes.
然后，与运动员进行交流。
That’s basically my responsibility is securing these guys, getting these guys to commit to things.
基本上我的责任就是保护这些人，让他们做出承诺。
It’s very difficult.
这是非常困难的。
There’s a reason a few athletes in every sport really stand out and it’s kind of professionalism and kind of the way they market themselves.
每项运动中都有少数运动员真正脱颖而出，这是有原因的，这就是他们的专业精神和他们推销自己的方式。
And I think those two things do go hand in hand.
我认为这两件事确实是齐头并进的。
1:11:04 So, we’re in a sport…
所以，我们正在进行一项运动……
Isn’t that funny?
这不是很有趣吗？
Where a lot of these guys do have managers.
其中很多人都有经理。
I think in MMA things would be a lot easier for the promoter because you’re not talking directly to the athlete.
我认为在 MMA 中，对于发起人来说事情会容易得多，因为你不是直接与运动员交谈。
You’re talking to a guy who might, who’s obviously taking a cut, but like, peace, there’s a middleman.
你正在和一个可能会这样做的人交谈，他显然会从中抽成，但是，和平，有一个中间人。
1:11:20 So, in a situation where you’re talking directly to the athlete, can be very difficult, can be very annoying, can be very hard to reach these guys.
因此，在你直接与运动员交谈的情况下，可能会非常困难，可能非常烦人，也可能很难联系到这些人。
They can be very non-committal.
他们可能非常不置可否。
That for me has been one of the biggest challenges.
这对我来说是最大的挑战之一。
The guys that I speak to that are like, “I’m in.” And then, they’re like, “I’m out.
与我交谈的人就像是，“我参与了。”然后，他们就会说：“我出去了。”
I’m in,” like navigating this area.
我在，”就像在这个区域导航一样。
1:11:37 One other aspect is because we did this basically from idea to event will be less than three months, three and a half months.
另外一方面是因为我们做这个基本上从想法到事件都会不到三个月、三个半月。
So, it’s like we’re having to do so much in such a short period of time.
所以，就好像我们必须在这么短的时间内做这么多事情。
Little things like, of the show and money we’ve given them.
像我们给他们的演出和金钱之类的小事情。
They’re expected to basically secure their own flight and hotel to the event with cutting down on staff because that would be one of the…
预计他们基本上会确保自己的航班和酒店能够参加活动，并减少员工数量，因为这将是其中之一……
If I had to coordinate, getting these guys flights, I would just jump off a building.
如果我必须协调，让这些人起飞，我会从大楼上跳下去。
It’s hard enough to get them to agree to the event, let alone coordinate, “Hey, what date do you want to come in?” It’s like herding cats.
让他们同意这个活动已经够困难的了，更不用说协调了，“嘿，你想什么时候来？”这就像放牧猫一样。
1:12:13 So, really just the interpersonal stuff’s been difficult.
所以，实际上只是人际交往方面的事情一直很困难。
Obviously, going up against ADCC, the legacy event has been pretty difficult as well.
显然，与 ADCC 对抗，传统赛事也相当困难。
Well-established, huge history.
历史悠久，历史悠久。
They’ve been selling tickets for two years.
他们已经卖票两年了。
Everyone’s known it’s been coming for two years.
每个人都知道它已经到来两年了。
That thing was largely sold out before we even announced the event.
在我们宣布活动之前，那东西就基本上卖完了。
So, we’re going head-to-head with this event.
因此，我们将与此活动进行正面交锋。
So, from a ticket sales perspective, very difficult.
所以，从门票销售的角度来看，非常困难。
What’s been Reddit question?
Reddit 问题是什么？
1:12:38 What’s been the most surprising people who turned down on your invite?
拒绝你的邀请的最令人惊讶的人是什么？
Oh, I mean, we can name names.
哦，我是说，我们可以说出名字。
1:12:44 I mean, obviously, Conan, he was a semi in, semi out.
我的意思是，显然，柯南，他是半进半出的。
His suggestion was actually to do a second and third place prize rather than a million.
他的建议实际上是颁发二等奖和三等奖，而不是一百万。
And I’m like, “No, we want all or nothing.
我说：“不，我们要么全要，要么全无。
It’s all or nothing here.” That’s a better spectacle, better entertainment, probably more injuries, but it’s all or nothing.
这里要么全有，要么全无。”这是一个更好的场面，更好的娱乐，可能会造成更多的伤害，但要么全有要么全无。
Mica Galvão, the one that got away.
米卡·加尔旺（Mica Galvão），就是那个逃脱的人。
Yeah.
是的。
That’s sad.
太悲伤了。
1:13:12 But we got the Ruotolos.
但我们得到了鲁托洛斯。
The Ruotolos props to these kids because Kade’s the reigning champion.
鲁托洛斯一家支持这些孩子，因为凯德是卫冕冠军。
These are two of the best guys in the sport.
这是这项运动中最优秀的两个人。
Allegedly, were offered pretty significant show money to stay.
据称，他们提供了相当可观的演出费用来留下来。
But they hit me up and they said, “Hey, promise us one thing.
但他们找到我并说：“嘿，答应我们一件事。
We’re on opposite sides of the brackets and we’ll fight to the death in the final for the million.” And we know…
我们处于括号的对立面，我们将在决赛中为百万奖金而战至死。”我们知道……
Everyone knows that.
每个人都知道这一点。
Well, we’ve seen them compete against each other multiple times.
好吧，我们已经多次看到他们相互竞争。
1:13:42 So, that was not a surprise because I know they’re good kids.
所以，这并不奇怪，因为我知道他们都是好孩子。
But to basically turn down allegedly show money to do this event, to support the event, to me is incredible.
但基本上拒绝据称出钱举办这个活动、支持这个活动，对我来说是不可思议的。
Mica Galvão, things would be more complicated there.
Mica Galvão，那里的事情会更复杂。
Obviously, Mica officially joined ADCC before he secured the Ruotolos.
显然，米卡在获得鲁托洛斯之前就正式加入了ADCC。
Kade beat him in the final.
凯德在决赛中击败了他。
Mica’s personally motivated to face off against Kade, so he didn’t know Kade was in our event before he agreed to ADCC.
Mica个人有与Kade对决的动机，所以他在同意参加ADCC之前并不知道Kade参加了我们的比赛。
1:14:10 There’s more to that story too, in terms of Mica doing ADCC because a bunch of the kids in his team, I think they’re being flown out to do the ADCC kids event.
这个故事还有更多内容，就 Mica 参加 ADCC 而言，因为他团队中的一群孩子，我认为他们要飞出去参加 ADCC 儿童活动。
So, there’s his two teammates, well, at least one of his teammates will be doing the ADCC 66 kilo division.
所以，他有两名队友，至少他的一名队友将参加 ADCC 66 公斤级比赛。
So, his dad, his coach, doesn’t really want to split time between two events.
所以，他的父亲，他的教练，并不真的想在两项赛事之间分配时间。
That’s a difficulty for athletes there.
这对那里的运动员来说是一个困难。
But obviously, disappointing.
但显然，令人失望。
We couldn’t secure Mica.
我们无法确保米卡安全。
1:14:37 Mica said he was about the legacy, so he wanted to be the youngest guy ever to double Grand Slam, which is basically win all the Gi events and win the ADCC that same year.
米卡说他很注重遗产，所以他想成为有史以来最年轻的双大满贯选手，这基本上就是赢得所有的道义赛事，并在同年赢得 ADCC。
My thoughts were, if I was in his position, and I never was obviously a prodigy, a talent like that is I thought he had a position to make a statement in the sport to kind of as cheesy it sounds, be on the right side of history, to have turned down a double Grand Slam, to be in an event that supports athlete pay.
我的想法是，如果我处于他的位置，而且我从来都不是一个明显的神童，这样的天才，我认为他有一个位置在这项运动中发表声明，听起来有点俗气，站在历史的正确一边，拒绝双大满贯，参加一项支持运动员薪酬的赛事。
1:15:13 Again, I don’t overly criticize him.
再说一遍，我并没有过度批评他。
But I think in terms of your legacy and reputation, to be at a point and choose to do that is much more memorable than him getting that double Grand Slam, which I’m sure he will win the ADCC 77 kilo division this year, but it’ll be somewhat tarnished anyway.
但我认为就你的遗产和声誉而言，在某个时刻并选择这样做比他获得双大满贯更令人难忘，我确信他今年将赢得 ADCC 77 公斤级，但无论如何它都会受到一些玷污。
So, I do feel bad for some of the athletes that win this year and potentially people will be like, “Oh, yeah, but there was half the people weren’t in the division.” I feel bad for those guys.
所以，我确实为今年获胜的一些运动员感到难过，人们可能会说，“哦，是的，但有一半的人不在这个级别。”我为那些家伙感到难过。
1:15:41 But at the end of the day, most of these guys had an opportunity to be a part of an event that really there’s no downside to.
但归根结底，这些人中的大多数人都有机会参加一项确实没有任何缺点的活动。
You have a chance to be paid more money than you’ve ever been paid in your life.
您有机会获得比您一生中获得的更多的钱。
You are selling tickets that are going to go to charity, and it’s not behind a paywall.
你出售的门票将捐给慈善机构，而且不是付费墙。
So, anyone, anywhere in the world can stream this event, watch it, and there’s no barrier to entry in terms of finances.
因此，世界上任何地方的任何人都可以直播、观看这一赛事，并且在财务方面没有进入障碍。
Was there ever any chance that Gordon Ryan would enter?
戈登·瑞恩（Gordon Ryan）有机会加入吗？
I don’t think so.
我不这么认为。
1:16:15 I don’t think so.
我不这么认为。
Is that something you tried?
这是你尝试过的吗？
Me and Gordon don’t text each other too often.
我和戈登不经常互相发短信。
1:16:17 I tag him on Instagram and things, but he doesn’t respond.
我在 Instagram 上标记了他，但他没有回应。
Tell me about your history with Nicholas Meregali.
告诉我你和尼古拉斯·梅雷加利的历史。
My history with Nicholas Meregali, actually it dates back to a time where probably he does not even remember back when I used to wear a kimono.
我和尼古拉斯·梅雷加利的历史，实际上可以追溯到他甚至不记得我穿和服的时候。
1:16:25 So, I went to Abu Dhabi World Pro.
所以，我去了阿布扎比世界职业赛。
I was chasing my gi dreams.
我正在追逐我的美国军人梦想。
I lost in…
我输在了……
I can’t even remember.
我什至不记得了。
Again, probably the final.
再说一次，可能是决赛。
You know me, I probably lost in the final against Tommy Langacker in the weight division.
你了解我，我可能在重量级决赛中输给了汤米·兰加克。
This was the last year they did the absolute.
这是他们最后一次做到这一点。
I went into the absolute.
我进入了绝对。
I made it all the way to the semis.
我一路进入半决赛。
Nicholas Meregali destroyed me in the gi.
尼古拉斯·梅雷加利（Nicholas Meregali）在陆军中摧毁了我。
I did hit a nice little reversal on him though, he passed my guard and I somehow reversed him from side control.
不过，我确实对他进行了一个漂亮的小逆转，他超越了我的防守，我以某种方式从侧面控制中扭转了他。
That’s the only part of the match I share.
这是我分享的比赛的唯一部分。
After which, he swept me, submitted me.
然后，他横扫了我，屈服了我。
You reversed him from side control?
你把他从侧面控制反转了？
Yeah.
是的。
Okay.
好的。
1:17:09 So, that could be an instructional.
所以，这可能是一个指导。
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
But right place, right time though.
但正确的地点，正确的时间。
1:17:14 All right.
好的。
But then, years later I left the team, Meregali replaced me.
但几年后我离开了球队，梅雷加利取代了我。
1:17:15 So, they’ve brought in a more credentialed, handsome, doesn’t speak as well, but they’ve brought him in.
所以，他们引进了一个更有资历、更英俊、不太会说话的人，但他们还是把他引进了。
He’s my replacement.
他是我的替代者。
He’s coming to the team.
他要加入球队了。
We faced off at ADCC.
我们在 ADCC 交锋。
I do a heavier division thinking…
我做了更重的除法思考……
I looked at the names and I was like, “That looks like an easier division.” And I had two teammates at that time that were in my 88 and I was like, “Those guys will have to face all first round.
我看着这些名字，心想，“这看起来是一个更容易的划分。”当时我有两个队友都穿着我的 88 号球衣，我当时想，“那些家伙将不得不面对所有的第一轮比赛。
I’ll have to face one of them second round the way they do the seating and the structure of the bracket.”
第二轮我将不得不面对他们中的一个，因为他们的座位和支架结构都是如此。”
1:17:48 So, I was like, “I’ll do 99, I’ll leave 88 for the boys.” They both lost my division first round, unfortunately.
所以，我想，“我会做 99，我会把 88 留给男孩们。”不幸的是，他们在第一轮就输掉了我的分区。
So, I faced off against Meregali beginning of day two.
所以，我在第二天一开始就与Meregali对峙。
Lot of pressure because Danaher used to corner me, used to be my coach.
压力很大，因为丹纳赫曾经逼迫我，他曾经是我的教练。
Now, he’s cornering the Brazilians who used to complain about as the enemy.
现在，他将曾经抱怨为敌人的巴西人逼入绝境。
And I’m like, “What’s going on over here?” It’s like karate kid stuff.
我想，“这里发生了什么事？”这就像空手道小子的东西。
I face off against Meregali.
我与梅雷加利对峙。
I go hard early because I think he can’t defend leg locks.
我很早就开始努力，因为我认为他无法防守腿锁。
1:18:18 For the first three minutes, I’m just attacking legs, legs, legs.
前三分钟，我只是攻击腿、腿、腿。
I ended up sweeping him, getting on top.
我最终横扫了他，登上了顶峰。
No points before the points period.
积分期之前没有积分。
But I’m very tired.
但我很累。
I’m very tired at this point.
此时我很累。
Meregali’s big.
梅雷加利很大。
There’s some guys that get juiced up to hit a certain weight.
有些人为了达到一定的体重而变得精力充沛。
That’s what I did to enter this division.
这就是我进入这个部门所做的。
You can’t keep your gas thing.
你不能保留你的天然气。
Meregali’s just a big dude.
梅雷加利只是个大家伙。
Who knows if he’s on the juice or not.
谁知道他是否在喝果汁。
But he’s just naturally sits around 230 pounds or even 225.
但他的体重自然是在 230 磅甚至 225 磅左右。
1:18:46 When you’re naturally that big, you gas tanks a bit better.
当你天生就那么大时，你的气罐就会更好一些。
Again, if you balloon yourself up on every substance possible, gas tanks surprisingly not too good.
再说一遍，如果你用所有可能的物质来膨胀自己，那么储气罐出人意料地不太好。
So, we have a bit of a close one.
所以，我们有一点亲密。
Decision goes my way.
决定按我的方式进行。
Ultimately, finals next.
最终，接下来就是决赛。
I lose that.
我失去了那个。
But that is sort of our competitive history.
但这就是我们的竞争历史。
We were meant to have a match that had been pre-booked immediately after ADCC.
我们本打算在 ADCC 之后立即进行一场预先预订的比赛。
1:19:08 So, we agreed to this before ADCC.
所以，我们在 ADCC 之前同意了这一点。
I was like, “The price is right, I’m in.” So, I signed up for it and I’m thinking ADCC that we’re going to face off soon after.
我当时想，“价格合适，我参加。”所以，我报名参加了，我想我们很快就会对阵 ADCC。
Meregali chose instead to have some vacation time.
梅雷加利选择休假。
He wanted to go on vacation.
他想去度假。
He went to relax, bit of relaxation down in Brazil.
他去巴西放松一下。
So, the match is scrapped.
于是，这场比赛就被取消了。
1:19:29 Flo hit me up and they say, “Can you do February?” And this was about the time that Volk fought Islam in Perth.
弗洛打电话给我，他们说：“你能参加二月吗？”这大约是沃尔克在珀斯与伊斯兰教作战的时间。
I was like, “No, I can’t do February because I’ll be helping Volkanovski.
我当时想，“不，我不能参加二月，因为我要帮助沃尔卡诺夫斯基。
That’s going to take precedence over this match.” Flo goes, “You know what?
这将优先于这场比赛。”弗洛说：“你知道吗？
We announce it anyway.
无论如何我们都会宣布这一点。
We’ll sell those tickets anyway.
无论如何我们都会卖掉这些门票。
We’ll get the people hyped.
我们会让人们兴奋不已。
And then, we’ll just have you pull out.” And I’m like, “All right, do it.” I’m like, “Do whatever you want.
然后，我们就让你撤退。”我说：“好吧，就这么做吧。”我想，“做你想做的事。
That’s fuck, and probably not a good idea.” But they do that.
那太他妈的了，而且可能不是一个好主意。”但他们就是这么做的。
1:19:56 And then, people keep trying to rebook this match.
然后，人们不断尝试重新预订这场比赛。
But now, I barely even train anymore.
但现在，我几乎不再训练了。
I’m busy being a promoter, traveling around.
我正忙着当推广员，到处旅行。
So, now instead of facing in competition again, which I would do if the price was right, they’d have to pay me very well.
因此，如果价格合适的话，我会再次面临竞争，但现在他们必须付给我很高的薪水。
Two of the shows have offered me the match, but the money, terrible.
其中两个节目向我提供了比赛机会，但钱太糟糕了。
What do you think is a number that would convince you?
您认为哪个数字能让您信服？
It would have to be, I would think half a million dollars.
我认为必须是五十万美元。
1:20:21 Otherwise, I just can’t be bothered.
否则，我就懒得打扰。
Yeah.
是的。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
1:20:26 It have to be worth it because to put a price on a guy that takes himself as serious as Meregali.
这一定是值得的，因为要给像梅雷加利这样认真的人定价。
Meregali is a very serious man.
梅雷加利是一个非常严肃的人。
He’s talking about authenticity.
他在谈论真实性。
He’s talking about words he doesn’t even understand.
他正在谈论他甚至听不懂的词。
For me, to give him the opportunity to live in a world where he had won the last match against me, it’s hard to put a price on that.
对我来说，让他有机会生活在一个他在上一场比赛中战胜我的世界里，这是很难定价的。
When people say it’s not about the money, it’s not about the money.
当人们说这不是钱的问题时，那就不是钱的问题。
It’s about me waking up every day knowing that he knows he lost to me.
这是关于我每天醒来都知道他知道他输给了我。
So, you think you’ve gotten it in his head?
那么，你认为你已经明白了他的意思吗？
Yes.
是的。
How do you think he would do if you were to face him for the said $500,000?
如果你和他争夺这 50 万美元，你认为他会怎么做？
For the $500?
500 美元？
Yeah.
是的。
I think over five minutes I beat anyone in the world.
我认为在五分钟内我击败了世界上任何人。
1:21:04 But…
但是……
You still think you got it?
你还认为你明白了吗？
I still think I got it.
我仍然认为我明白了。
1:21:09 Gabi about to find out too.
加比也想知道。
All right.
好的。
1:21:15 So, you’re going to make a statement with Gabi that it’ll be a match she remembers.
所以，你要和加比一起声明，这将是一场她记得的比赛。
Yeah, yeah, she for sure.
是的，是的，她当然。
1:21:22 I think the fans will remember it as well.
我想球迷们也会记住这一点。
I’m open to it.
我对此持开放态度。
If we do this match, I’m taking it very serious.
如果我们进行这场比赛，我会非常认真地对待。
But we’d be open to rematches.
但我们对重赛持开放态度。
I’ve always said, I would have an MMA fight with her.
我总是说，我会和她进行一场综合格斗比赛。
I wouldn’t be afraid to hit a big woman.
我不会害怕打一个大女人。
So, unlike with Meregali, if you win, you’re not going to ride out off to the sunset with Gabi.
所以，与梅雷加利不同的是，如果你赢了，你就不会和加比一起骑马去看日落。
I’m a bit of a romantic.
我是一个有点浪漫的人。
1:21:45 I think she deserves a few finishes, not one, and hit the bed that night.
我认为她应该完成一些任务，而不是一个，那天晚上她就上床睡觉了。
So, you think you can actually beat Nicholas Meregali?
那么，你认为你真的可以击败尼古拉斯·梅雷加利吗？
I think so, yeah.
我想是的，是的。
1:21:54 I mean, you could throw a riddle at him before the match.
我的意思是，你可以在比赛前向他抛出一个谜语。
That had fucking complicate things for him for the next hour.
这让他接下来的一个小时里的事情变得他妈的复杂化了。
Will you and Gordon ever get along again?
你和戈登还能和睦相处吗？
I think so.
我想是的。
1:22:04 I think we need…
我认为我们需要……
The origins of MDMA was couples therapy in the ’70s in Houston, I believe.
我相信 MDMA 的起源是 70 年代休斯敦的夫妻疗法。
I believe something like that for us could resolve these underlying issues.
我相信这样的事情对我们来说可以解决这些根本问题。
You’re a man of Reddit because they suggested that you should consider ketamine therapy sessions.
你是 Reddit 的人，因为他们建议你应该考虑氯胺酮治疗。
Just imagine a therapist sitting down with him.
想象一下一位治疗师和他坐在一起。
1:22:18 They’ll be like, “Clear the schedule for the next couple of weeks.”
他们会说，“明确接下来几周的日程安排。”
With all due respect, Craig, I can’t imagine a therapist sitting down with you.
恕我直言，克雷格，我无法想象治疗师会和你坐在一起。
1:22:25 That would be a terrifying.
那将是一个可怕的事情。
I do have a therapist.
我确实有治疗师。
1:22:30 Actually, they prescribed me Vyvanse.
事实上，他们给我开了 Vyvanse。
He’s quite confident in my…
他对我的……很有信心
This is…
这是……
1:22:35 You met him in Bali or where did you?
你是在巴厘岛遇见他的还是在哪里？
It’s a Russian website.
这是一个俄语网站。
It’s the old Sean Connery thing.
这是肖恩康纳利的旧事。
1:22:41 It’s not a therapist.
这不是治疗师。
It’s just something that’s spelled the same.
只是拼写相同的东西。
I think me and Gordon, a debate of some type would be awesome.
我认为我和戈登进行某种类型的辩论会很棒。
Like a political debate?
就像政治辩论一样？
Yeah, me representing Kamala Harris, and him representing Donald Trump.
是的，我代表卡马拉·哈里斯，他代表唐纳德·特朗普。
1:22:52 That would be…
那将是……
So, intellectual sparring.
所以，智力上的较量。
An intellectual battle, a battle of wits.
一场智力的较量，一场斗智斗勇的较量。
Can you just speak to your trolling?
你能谈谈你的恶作剧吗？
1:23:02 Is there underneath it all?
一切都在下面吗？
Is there just a respect the human beings you go after?
你所追求的只是对人的尊重吗？
For sure.
一定。
1:23:12 They have to be worthy of being attacked.
他们必须值得受到攻击。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
Yeah.
是的。
Like if someone attack…
就像有人攻击一样……
1:23:15 That’s the thing, it’s like you want a worthy adversary, not in a sense of, I don’t want to battle someone that has better banter than me because I’m going to lose.
就是这样，就像你想要一个有价值的对手，而不是在某种意义上，我不想与比我更好玩笑的人战斗，因为我会输。
But I want to battle someone with a profile large enough that it doesn’t look like you’re just…
但我想与一个拥有足够大的形象的人战斗，让你看起来不像……
Who do you think is the biggest troll or shit talker in martial arts?
你认为谁是武术界最大的巨魔或说废话的人？
Renato Laranja.
雷纳托·拉兰贾.
Yeah.
是的。
1:23:38 Well, you can’t even put him in the…
好吧，你甚至不能把他放进去……
He’s in the other class of human being.
他属于另一类人类。
He’s overqualified.
他资历过高。
Chael Sonnen comes to mind.
我想到了查尔·索南。
Chael is good.
查尔很好。
You versus Chael, who’s a better shit talker?
你和查尔，谁更能说脏话？
1:23:48 If you look the entirety of the career.
如果你纵观整个职业生涯。
Chael is better.
查尔更好。
1:23:53 I mean, I don’t think if you can shit talk in MMA, because there’s far worse consequences for you.
我的意思是，我不认为你可以在 MMA 中说废话，因为这会给你带来更糟糕的后果。
If you’re still willing to do it when really violent things can happen to you.
如果当真正的暴力事情发生在你身上时你仍然愿意这样做。
I mean, I’m getting death threats, but he has a certainty of violence against his opponents at MMA.
我的意思是，我收到了死亡威胁，但他肯定会对 MMA 对手使用暴力。
So, on Reddit, somebody said you are a coral belt level troll and just happened to be good at jiu-jitsu.
所以，在 Reddit 上，有人说你是珊瑚带级别的巨魔，而且恰好擅长柔术。
1:24:12 So, what did it take for you to rise to the ranks of trolling from white belt to black belt to coral belt?
那么，您是如何从白带、黑带、珊瑚带晋升到巨魔行列的呢？
And what’s your journey with talking shit?
你的胡言乱语经历是怎样的？
That’s a good question.
这是一个好问题。
1:24:29 Hey, I think it would’ve happened after I moved to America because in Australia, we just on a daily basis say some of the worst things you could ever imagine.
嘿，我想这会在我搬到美国后发生，因为在澳大利亚，我们每天都会说一些你能想象到的最糟糕的事情。
Like in private life?
就像在私生活中一样？
Yeah, we just trying to ruin each other’s day.
是的，我们只是想毁了彼此的一天。
1:24:40 In a way, that’s so blase, you’re going back and forth.
在某种程度上，这太无聊了，你会来回走动。
And the guy that actually gets upset and says some real shit, that’s your victory.
而那个真正感到不安并说出一些真正的废话的人，那就是你的胜利。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
Yeah.
是的。
You’re like, “Oh, we got you, you actually…
你会说，“哦，我们找到你了，你实际上......
1:24:54 That actually, bothers you.
这实际上让你很烦恼。
All right, we’ll take that as a victory.”
好吧，我们就以此为胜利。”
All right.
好的。
1:24:58 So, when you come to America and everybody takes themselves a little too seriously, those are just a bunch of victims that you can take advantage of.
所以，当你来到美国，每个人都把自己看得太严肃了，这些只是你可以利用的一群受害者。
An Australian entering American banter is like, neo getting these matrix skills.
澳大利亚人进入美国的玩笑就像是，尼奥获得了这些矩阵技能。
1:25:06 You’re just like, “Whoa, I see everything coming.”
你就像，“哇，我看到一切即将到来。”
Do you ever look in the mirror and regret how hard you went in the paint at somebody?
你是否曾经在照镜子时后悔自己在禁区内对某人的用力？
I don’t think so.
我不这么认为。
1:25:22 I don’t think so.
我不这么认为。
So, you’re proud of yourself?
那么，你为自己感到骄傲吗？
I think what I offer is some balance.
我认为我提供的是一些平衡。
1:25:25 It’s like I’m bringing some justice.
就好像我正在伸张正义。
Ultimately, it’ll probably come back in spades to me.
最终，它可能会毫无疑问地回到我身边。
Yeah.
是的。
1:25:35 I don’t know, as a fan of yours, as a fan of Gordon’s also.
我不知道，作为你的粉丝，作为戈登的粉丝。
But as a fan of yours, I see the love behind it.
但作为你的粉丝，我看到了你背后的爱。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
It seems always just fun.
看起来总是很有趣。
The shit talking seems fun.
聊屎好像很有趣。
I wish you’d buy it back.
我希望你能把它买回来。
1:25:46 It doesn’t buy back anymore though.
但它不再回购了。
What’s your relationship like with Mo the organizer of ADCC?
您和 ADCC 的组织者 Mo 的关系怎么样？
I mean, it’s been a love-hate relationship.
我的意思是，这是一种又爱又恨的关系。
1:25:55 I guess that…
我想……
Like with Gabi?
就像加比一样？
Like any good relationship, if you don’t get blocked to the end of it, will you really in love to begin with?
就像任何良好的关系一样，如果你没有被阻碍到最后，你真的会爱上吗？
Right.
正确的。
That’s my thoughts anyway.
无论如何，这就是我的想法。
1:26:05 But so, in terms of my friendship with Bob, me and Mo were really close friends for a long time.
但就我和鲍勃的友谊而言，我和莫在很长一段时间内都是非常亲密的朋友。
We’d talk a lot.
我们会聊很多。
He was instrumental in us moving Danaher desk squad to Puerto Rico.
他在我们将丹纳赫服务团队迁往波多黎各的过程中发挥了重要作用。
He lives in Puerto Rico, spends most of his time in Puerto Rico.
他住在波多黎各，大部分时间都在波多黎各度过。
I’ve spent time with him in Florida, California.
我曾在加利福尼亚州佛罗里达州与他共度时光。
But in terms of our relationship, I’m trying to think of an exact time where it went south, but I guess in my…
但就我们的关系而言，我试图想出它恶化的确切时间，但我想在我的……
Him being the ADCC organizer, in my attack of athlete compensation was taken personally, which is obviously going to ruin whatever friendship you had.
他是 ADCC 的组织者，在我对运动员赔偿的攻击中，他是针对个人的，这显然会毁掉你们之间的友谊。
And that started around the time you were thinking about CJI.
这大约是在您考虑 CJI 的时候开始的。
I mean, to be honest, CJI was a result of the response of my discussion of athlete compensation.
我的意思是，说实话，CJI 是我对运动员薪酬讨论的回应的结果。
1:26:56 So, me and Mo had been close friends even after the Danaher team broke up.
因此，即使在丹纳赫团队解散后，我和莫仍然是亲密的朋友。
We were still close friends for quite a while after that.
在那之后的很长一段时间里我们仍然是亲密的朋友。
But it does complicate things when someone is, for all intents and purposes, he as an ADCC competitor and he runs ADCC, the event, he’s in control of it now, he is your boss.
但当有人，无论出于何种意图和目的，他作为 ADCC 的竞争对手，并且他经营 ADCC，这项赛事，他现在控制了它，他是你的老板时，事情确实变得复杂了。
So, that does complicate our friendship.
所以，这确实使我们的友谊变得复杂。
Have you had a conversation since you announced CJI?
自从宣布 CJI 以来，你们有过交谈吗？
Have we had a conversation…
我们有没有交谈过……
When did you get blocked?
你什么时候被屏蔽的？
I honestly didn’t get blocked.
老实说我没有被阻止。
1:27:38 I was just joking.
我只是开玩笑。
Nah, honestly, we had a disagreement about athlete compensation.
不，老实说，我们在运动员报酬问题上存在分歧。
I said, “Let’s do a podcast and talk about it because I’m a big fan of transparency.
我说：“让我们做一个播客来讨论一下吧，因为我是透明度的忠实拥护者。
If you think I’m an idiot for thinking athletes should get paid more, tell me in.
如果你认为我认为运动员应该得到更多报酬是个白痴，请告诉我。
Show it to me.” And I’ve made public statements.
给我看看。”我已经发表了公开声明。
1:28:02 Other people have asked why we don’t get paid more money.
其他人问为什么我们没有得到更多的钱。
You can both tell me and the world at the same time, the grappling world at the same time, but was not interested in doing a podcast.
你们可以同时告诉我和世界，同时讲述世界，但对做播客不感兴趣。
Again, maybe he thought I was going to hit him with some gotcha questions or something.
再说一次，也许他认为我会问他一些疑难杂症之类的问题。
But really, at the end of the day, I personally believe you’ve got nothing to hide.
但实际上，归根结底，我个人相信你没有什么可隐瞒的。
If you are confident in the business decisions you’ve made, then there’s no got you moment that I could actually do.
如果您对自己所做的商业决策充满信心，那么我实际上无能为力。
1:28:29 I could easily…
我可以轻松地……
I would have done the podcast if I look like a complete idiot would’ve released it anyway because it’d be a good message to where we are in the sport.
如果我看起来像个彻头彻尾的白痴，我就会做这个播客，无论如何都会发布它，因为这将是一个很好的信息，告诉我们我们在这项运动中所处的位置。
But again, considering what I know about Thomas & Mack’s price, which I believe we’re paying $200,000 for, and T-Mobile’s $2 million.
但再次考虑到我对 Thomas & Mack 价格的了解（我相信我们为此支付了 20 万美元），以及 T-Mobile 的 200 万美元。
How do you justify no increase in athlete pay?
你如何证明不增加运动员工资是合理的？
Well, we have a $1.8 million increase in venue cost.
好吧，我们的场地成本增加了 180 万美元。
So, you’re saying that there could potentially be poor business decisions, poor allocation of money that could be reallocated better to support the athletes?
那么，你是说可能存在糟糕的商业决策、糟糕的资金分配，而这些资金可以更好地重新分配来支持运动员？
Yeah, I’ve never once thought this was some organization when most like stealing money from self.
是的，我从来没有想过这是一个最喜欢从自己身上偷钱的组织。
1:29:00 I’m just saying that…
我只是说……
And again, the road to hell is paved with good intention.
再说一次，通往地狱的道路是由善意铺成的。
So, he might fully think that what he is doing is going to grow the sport.
所以，他可能完全认为他正在做的事情将会促进这项运动的发展。
I’m going about it in a completely different way.
我将以一种完全不同的方式来解决这个问题。
I don’t think we need T-Mobile.
我认为我们不需要 T-Mobile。
I don’t think we need it behind a paywall.
我认为我们不需要付费墙。
I think we need cheap venue, still maintain good quality production.
我认为我们需要廉价的场地，同时仍保持良好的制作质量。
Release it for free.
免费发布。
If you want something to grow, present it for free.
如果你想让某些东西成长，就免费展示它。
Is there a future where the two of you talk?
两个人谈论的未来还有吗？
Yeah, for sure.
是的，当然。
1:29:36 He keeps insisting on talking face-to-face.
他一直坚持面对面交谈。
I don’t have a problem with that, but my argument is, this is a public feud.
我对此没有意见，但我的论点是，这是一场公开的争斗。
The public…
公众…
This is…
这是……
We’re having a disagreement.
我们有分歧。
Let’s settle the disagreement in a way that answers the question to the fans.
让我们以能够回答粉丝问题的方式来解决分歧。
Because if one of us is a complete idiot that I believe the world of people following this story are entitled to know which one of us is an idiot.
因为如果我们中的一个人是一个彻头彻尾的白痴，我相信关注这个故事的人们有权知道我们中的哪一个是白痴。
If you talk to him, would you be good faith?
如果你跟他说话，你会真诚吗？
1:30:06 Would you turn off or turn the troll down from 11 to a three?
你会把巨魔关掉或者把它从 11 降到 3 吗？
I don’t even think I need a troll.
我什至不认为我需要巨魔。
1:30:14 It might just say, “Hey, show us the books.” You know what I mean?
它可能只是说，“嘿，给我们看看这些书。”你知道我的意思？
Honestly, when our event’s done, we’re going to be pretty transparent.
老实说，当我们的活动结束后，我们将非常透明。
Obviously, we are run as a nonprofit.
显然，我们是作为非营利组织运营的。
We’re going to be pretty transparent about everything.
我们将对一切都非常透明。
And I mean, obviously, ultimately, all the views we get.
我的意思是，显然，最终，我们得到的所有观点。
1:30:34 When FloGrappling, when an event on FloGrappling or Fight Pass or any other streaming provider, unless it’s a pay-per-view, you’re not going to know how many people watched.
当 FloGrappling 时，当 FloGrappling 或 Fight Pass 或任何其他流媒体提供商上的活动时，除非是按次付费，否则您不会知道有多少人观看。
So, that’s one aspect of what we’re doing is we’re going to have a visual guide to how many people off hands of grappling.
所以，我们正在做的一个方面是，我们将有一个视觉指南来显示有多少人摆脱了缠斗。
Yeah, transparency in all of its forms.
是的，所有形式的透明度。
1:30:53 That’s what bothers me about the IOC with the Olympics is that there’s this organization that puts on an incredible event, but it’s completely opaque, it’s not transparent and the athletes don’t get paid almost at all.
让我对国际奥委会与奥运会感到困扰的是，这个组织举办了一场令人难以置信的赛事，但它完全不透明，不透明，运动员几乎根本没有得到报酬。
So, it’s usually from sponsorships and they sell distribution, broadcast distribution.
所以，通常来自赞助，他们出售发行、广播发行。
And so, it’s mostly pay walled after the fact.
所以，事后大部分都是付费的。
It’s very…
这很……
Unless you’re a super famous athlete or a famous event, it’s hard to watch.
除非你是超级著名的运动员或著名的赛事，否则很难观看。
I don’t know the early rounds of the weightlifting or the judo or all of the competitions where most of those athletes get paid almost nothing and they’ve dedicated their whole life like, they’ve sacrificed everything to be there and we don’t get to watch them openly.
我不知道举重或柔道或所有比赛的早期几轮，大多数运动员几乎没有得到任何报酬，他们奉献了一生，他们牺牲了一切来参加比赛，但我们无法公开观看他们。
1:31:42 And in many cases, you can’t even pay for it.
在许多情况下，您甚至无法支付费用。
With IOC, I’ve got to experience this because I’ll have podcast conversations with judoka for example, and I put a little clip in a podcast and the Olympics channel takes it down immediately.
在国际奥委会，我必须经历这一点，因为我将与柔道运动员进行播客对话，例如，我在播客中放了一个小剪辑，奥林匹克频道立即将其删除。
So, they have all the videos uploaded private, they’re private.
所以，他们上传的所有视频都是私有的，它们是私有的。
Oh, to flag the copyright.
噢，要标记版权。
They just flag the copyright automatically.
他们只是自动标记版权。
1:32:05 From the private videos, they could release, they could release somewhere, even if it’s paywall, which I’m against.
从私人视频来看，他们可以发布，他们可以在某个地方发布，即使是付费墙，这是我反对的。
But paywall, but make it super easily accessible.
但是付费专区，却让它变得超级容易访问。
So, the FloGrappling model is still okay.
所以，FloGrappling模型还是可以的。
I’m against it.
我反对。
But if you do a really good job of it, okay, I can understand a membership fee, but it should be super easy to use.
但如果你做得非常好，好吧，我可以理解会员费，但它应该非常容易使用。
1:32:25 But in the case of the Olympics, first of all, in the case of the Olympics, the whole point of the Olympics is for it to be accessible to everybody.
但就奥运会而言，首先，就奥运会而言，奥运会的全部意义在于让每个人都能参与其中。
So, paywalling goes against the spirit of the Olympic Games.
因此，付费墙违背了奥运会的精神。
And I will say the same is probably true for many sports I grappling, especially from major events like ADCC that I feel like they should be openly accessible to everybody on every platform.
我想说，对于我所从事的许多运动项目来说，情况可能也是如此，尤其是像 ADCC 这样的重大赛事，我觉得它们应该在每个平台上向每个人公开开放。
But what was the decision like for you to make it accessible on YouTube and X and…
但是您是如何决定将其发布到 YouTube 和 X 上的呢？
Well, I mean, just because basically it’s going to grow the sport.
嗯，我的意思是，只是因为基本上它会发展这项运动。
1:32:53 You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
If you have to subscribe to a platform to watch something, you have a mild interest in, a mild curiosity in, there’s a financial barrier there.
如果你必须订阅某个平台才能观看某些内容，那么你对某件事有轻微的兴趣，有一点好奇，那就存在财务障碍。
So, I want to open it up because again, we have an investor who’s contributing and is happy for it to be spent this way, happy for us not to be held hostage by these streaming providers.
所以，我想公开它，因为我们有一位投资者正在做出贡献，并且很高兴以这种方式使用它，很高兴我们不被这些流媒体提供商扣为人质。
1:33:25 And really like, again, I’m not making accusations against FloGrappling or UFC Fight Pass.
再说一遍，我并不是在指责 FloGrappling 或 UFC Fight Pass。
They are making the right business decision by not providing streamer numbers because that’s leverage that those people can use against the streaming provider.
他们通过不提供流媒体号码来做出正确的商业决策，因为这是这些人可以用来对抗流媒体提供商的杠杆。
But for me as an individual athlete that really wants to understand the metrics of how many people actually watch this sport to leverage that in my own sponsorship negotiations, then if I’m in a position to have this out free and also give every athlete involved the same metrics and information, you’ll literally be able to see the spikes when you compete and you’ll be able to take that and present it for opportunities for sponsorships, for businesses to say, “Look, how many views this got.” I was one of the most viewed moments of this event, so I want to put the power back in the athlete and take it away from the host.
但对于我作为一名个人运动员来说，我真的很想了解有多少人真正观看这项运动，以便在我自己的赞助谈判中利用这一点，那么如果我能够免费提供这一点，并为每个涉及相同指标和信息的运动员提供相同的指标和信息，那么当你参加比赛时，你实际上就能看到峰值，你将能够利用它并将其呈现为赞助机会，让企业说，“看，这得到了多少观看次数。”我是本次赛事中观看次数最多的时刻之一，因此我想将力量重新赋予运动员，并将其从主持人手中夺走。
And it creates a lot of incentive for the athlete to make it exciting.
它为运动员创造了很多激励，使其变得令人兴奋。
Yeah, this is your time.
是的，这是你的时间。
1:34:25 It might never happen again.
它可能永远不会再发生。
I fully intend to run this every year.
我完全打算每年都举办这个活动。
That’s the goal.
这就是目标。
But again, it might never happen again.
但同样，它可能永远不会再发生。
Is there a possible future where the 2026 ADCC is run by Craig Jones?
未来 2026 年 ADCC 是否有可能由克雷格·琼斯 (Craig Jones) 主持？
Could I take over ADCC?
我可以接管 ADCC 吗？
1:34:39 I think from an ADCC perspective, it would make a lot of sense.
我认为从 ADCC 的角度来看，这很有意义。
I think it would make a lot of sense to wait, to see if this event turns into fire festival first before you commit to something like that.
我认为在你做出这样的事情之前先等待一下，看看这个活动是否会变成火节是很有意义的。
But I think a more modern approach to the promotion of the event, again, I keep going back to the comedians.
但我认为，以更现代的方式来宣传这一活动，我再次回到喜剧演员身上。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
If you want to grow your brand, whatever that may be, provide content for free and you can paywall.
如果您想发展自己的品牌，无论是什么，都可以免费提供内容，并且可以付费。
1:35:11 Eventually, you can grow the audience, create the audience free.
最终，你可以增加观众，创造免费的观众。
I think, again, if your goal is to create a huge sport here, then it’s like if we’re already a niche sport and competition aspect of that, is it even smaller niche?
我再次认为，如果你的目标是在这里创建一项大型运动，那么就像我们已经是一项小众运动和竞争方面一样，它是否还更小？
Then, we need to grow that providing this content for free.
然后，我们需要扩大免费提供此内容的力度。
Well, having just chatted with Elon Musk who fundamentally believes that the most entertaining outcome is the most likely, that to me, if the universe has a sense of humor, you would certainly, Craig Jones would certainly be running ADCC, which would be, I mean, it would just be beautifully hilarious.
好吧，刚刚与埃隆·马斯克聊过，他从根本上相信最有趣的结果是最有可能的，对我来说，如果宇宙有幽默感，你肯定会，克雷格·琼斯肯定会运行 ADCC，我的意思是，这将是非常搞笑的。
It would be a poetic ending.
这将是一个诗意的结局。
1:35:51 It would be an underdog story, from a man that could never win the event to running the event on behalf of the Sheik Tahnoon.
这将是一个失败者的故事，从一个永远无法赢得比赛的人到代表谢赫·塔努 (Sheik Tahnoon) 主持比赛。
So, I saw B-Team videos of the CJI camp, people training super hard.
所以，我看了 CJI 训练营的 B-Team 视频，人们训练得非常刻苦。
1:36:03 So, you aside who don’t seem to do things in a standard way, what does it take to sort of put yourself in a peak shape, peak performance for a huge event like the CJI or the ADCC?
那么，除了你这些似乎不以标准方式做事的人之外，如何才能让自己在像 CJI 或 ADCC 这样的大型活动中处于巅峰状态、巅峰表现呢？
I mean, psychologically, it’s really, really brutal.
我的意思是，从心理上来说，这真的非常非常残酷。
1:36:25 For me, anytime I’m leading up to any event of any meaningful significance, it’s horrible on a psychological level because you’re always thinking about, “Are you training enough?
对我来说，每当我准备参加任何有意义的活动时，这在心理层面上都是可怕的，因为你总是在想，“你训练得足够吗？
Are you doing enough?” If you feel any signs of sickness, injury, the stress levels increase, your sleep quality decreases, it’s all those little subtle things that’s so hard to mitigate.
你做得够多了吗？”如果您感觉到任何疾病、受伤的迹象，压力水平增加，睡眠质量下降，所有这些微妙的事情都很难减轻。
1:36:51 So, whether you feel like you’re training hard enough, you’re over training.
所以，无论你是否觉得自己训练得足够努力，你都已经训练过度了。
Those to me are the most difficult aspects.
这些对我来说是最困难的方面。
And I think really, those are an individual thing and that’s really something where a coach can provide what he thinks to you is the right amount of work.
我认为，这些都是个人的事情，教练可以为你提供他认为合适的工作量。
And I think that’s different for different people.
我认为这对于不同的人来说是不同的。
I think Nicky Rod could do eight hours a day, you know what I mean?
我认为尼基·罗德每天可以工作八小时，你明白我的意思吗？
I think Nick Ryan, 8 minutes.
我认为尼克·瑞安，8 分钟。
I saw a video of Nick Ryan with a trashcan throwing up.
我看到尼克·瑞恩（Nick Ryan）用垃圾桶呕吐的视频。
Yes.
是的。
1:37:19 He’s being good.
他很好。
And the top comment is like, “That’s him doing the warmup.”
最热门的评论是：“那是他在热身。”
That is satisfying to watch, honestly.
老实说，这让人很满意。
Yeah.
是的。
1:37:28 But yeah, so you’re supposed to train hard enough to where you have this confidence that you’re prepared.
但是，是的，所以你应该刻苦训练，直到你有信心自己已经做好准备。
Yeah, I mean, and it’s an impossible thing to grasp.
是的，我的意思是，这是一件不可能掌握的事情。
1:37:35 It’s like some of the best performances I’ve had, I’ve been called up last minute or I’ve been sick or my camp’s been horrible.
这就像我曾经有过的一些最好的表现，我在最后一刻被征召，或者我生病了，或者我的训练营很糟糕。
And for me, personally, I’ve gone in there and thought, “Oh, relax.” Almost like, oh, well, you got caught up a week ago, you’re injured, you missed four weeks of your camp.
就我个人而言，我进去后想：“哦，放松一下。”几乎就像，哦，好吧，你一周前陷入困境，你受伤了，你错过了四个星期的训练营。
And I went in there super relaxed and accepting of the result and performed much better.
我进去时非常放松并接受了结果并且表现得更好。
1:38:04 Sometimes, when I know three months out, I’ve got an event coming up and that event only happens every two years.
有时，当我知道三个月后，我会发生一个事件，而该事件每两年才发生一次。
It just the stress of that alone, I personally on an individual level, more of a, I’d rather wing it.
仅就这一点而言，我个人在个人层面上，更多的是，我宁愿即兴发挥。
I’d rather be in the stands and just roll down.
我宁愿在看台上滚下来。
Like Gunnar Nelson, I remember he had a brilliant performance in an ADCC absolute.
和 Gunnar Nelson 一样，我记得他在 ADCC 绝对赛中有着出色的表现。
And he was out drinking the night before.
前一天晚上他出去喝酒了。
He had no idea he was competing the next day.
他不知道第二天自己就要参加比赛。
He was in the stands eating ice cream and they called his name out for the absolute, and he went out there and I believe he got bronze.
他在看台上吃冰淇淋，他们大声喊出他的名字，他走了出去，我相信他获得了铜牌。
I believe he beat Jeff Monson.
我相信他击败了杰夫·蒙森。
1:38:36 So, it’s like, it’s different for different people.
所以，这对于不同的人来说是不同的。
Obviously, you don’t want that to be the standard.
显然，您不希望这成为标准。
You’ve got to be putting in the work at all times.
你必须时刻投入工作。
But even now in my crazy travel schedule where I don’t train anywhere near like I used to.
但即使是现在，在我疯狂的旅行日程中，我也没有像以前那样训练。
As long as your game is technical, and as long as your body’s in good condition, I believe you can still train well against world-class guys.
只要你的比赛有技术性，只要你的身体状态良好，我相信你仍然可以和世界级的选手训练得很好。
You might not be able to do an hour straight, but if you’re technique-orientated, you’re just losing fitness.
你可能无法连续锻炼一个小时，但如果你注重技术，你就会失去健康。
So, is it possible to out cardio Craig Jones?
那么，有可能超越有氧运动克雷格·琼斯吗？
1:39:08 Is your game fundamentally a technique-based game?
您的游戏本质上是基于技术的游戏吗？
For Sure, for sure, yeah.
当然，当然，是的。
1:39:15 I’ve never wanted to win anything bad enough to train properly for it.
我从来都不想赢得任何糟糕的事情，以至于需要为此进行适当的训练。
Right.
正确的。
1:39:19 But isn’t that the secret to your success being lazy?
但这不正是你成功的秘诀吗？
I think so.
我想是的。
1:39:23 I think that’s the only logical explanation.
我认为这是唯一合乎逻辑的解释。
And I also use it as mind games too.
我也用它作为智力游戏。
Again, no one knows whether what I’m saying is true or not.
再说一次，没有人知道我说的是真是假。
Right.
正确的。
And I’m not saying this story to say anything bad about my opponent at that time, but I booked two matches and two consecutive weekends.
我说这个故事并不是要说我当时的对手的任何坏话，但我预订了两场比赛和连续两个周末。
1:39:34 And I’ve been traveling, I think I just got back from one of my trips.
我一直在旅行，我想我刚刚从一次旅行中回来。
I’ve been over international, so I don’t even know where the fuck I was.
我去过国际机场，所以我什至不知道我他妈的在哪里。
But…
但是……
Yeah, you’re in Texas right now, by the way.
是的，顺便说一句，你现在在德克萨斯州。
1:39:52 Just in case you forgot.
以防万一你忘记了。
Texas, just for you.
德克萨斯州，只为你。
1:39:55 I just came back for you.
我刚回来找你。
Thank you, man, it’s an honor.
谢谢你，伙计，这是一种荣幸。
But I hadn’t really even trained.
但我什至没有真正训练过。
1:39:58 I couldn’t train.
我无法训练。
I was traveling, just had no ability to train.
我正在旅行，只是没有能力训练。
I trained for a week.
我训练了一周。
I had the Phil Rowe match.
我参加了菲尔·罗的比赛。
And I said to myself, I was down in Mexico City and I said, “You know what?
我对自己说，我在墨西哥城，我说：“你知道吗？
If you win this match, you got to face Lovato next week.
如果你赢了这场比赛，你就必须在下周面对洛瓦托。
Don’t go out and party, don’t celebrate the victory.
不要出去聚会，不要庆祝胜利。
But as a 32-year-old man at that time, hitting a flying triangle submission, I thought that deemed a worthy afterparty.
但作为一个当时 32 岁的男人，击出一个飞行三角降服，我认为这算是一场值得的余兴派对。
Yeah.
是的。
And we got out of control that night.
那天晚上我们失去了控制。
1:40:29 And it wasn’t until the next day I woke up, I was like, “Oh, I have Lavato next weekend.” But people don’t know whether I’m telling the truth or not.
直到第二天我醒来，我才想，“哦，下周末我有拉瓦托。”但人们不知道我说的是真话还是假话。
But it’s also, I’m almost too honest because I’ll be doing an interview saying, “Yeah, I was out party and I barely trained.” The opponent looks into that and they question it, “Is he telling the truth?
但我也太诚实了，因为我会在接受采访时说：“是的，我参加了聚会，几乎没有训练。”对手对此进行调查并提出质疑：“他说的是实话吗？
Is he baiting me?
他是在引诱我吗？
Is he really that unconcerned?” You know what I mean?
他真的这么不关心吗？”你知道我的意思？
It’s almost a psychological battle in and of itself, but for the most part it’s true.
这本身几乎就是一场心理战，但在很大程度上这是事实。
So, to you, being psychologically relaxed is extremely important, just not giving in them, I wonder what that is.
所以，对你来说，心理放松是极其重要的，只是不屈服，我想知道那是什么。
Not too much pressure.
没有太大的压力。
1:41:02 I don’t want…
我不想……
Pressure.
压力。
I don’t like the pressure.
我不喜欢压力。
But you like the pressure when it comes to internet shit talking.
但你喜欢在网络上胡言乱语时的压力。
Well, I mean, you get a silently sit back and think about a good response.
嗯，我的意思是，你会安静地坐下来思考一个好的回应。
Yeah.
是的。
1:41:14 How important is it to just go crazy hard rounds leading up to competitions like that?
在这样的比赛之前进行疯狂的艰苦比赛有多重要？
You said sort of Nicky Rod, but on average for athletes at world-class level, do you have to put in the hard rounds?
你说的是尼基·罗德（Nicky Rod），但平均而言，对于世界级水平的运动员来说，你必须参加艰苦的比赛吗？
Yeah, I think you have to put in the hard rounds.
是的，我认为你必须进行艰苦的回合。
1:41:30 It depends at what point in your career you are.
这取决于您处于职业生涯的哪个阶段。
I think someone like Nick Ryan might almost train too technically too often.
我认为像尼克·瑞安这样的人可能会在技术上训练得太频繁。
And when he comes to competition, it’s a confronting experience when someone hits him hard and he fills that pressure.
当他参加比赛时，当有人狠狠地打击他时，他会承担这种压力，这是一种面对的经历。
So, I think different people require different things.
所以，我认为不同的人需要不同的东西。
When Nicky Rod is breaking the spine of a 37-year-old father, a three-bus driver, it might be time for him to train in a more technical manner.
当尼基·罗德 (Nicky Rod) 弄断了一位 37 岁父亲（一名三辆公交车司机）的脊椎时，也许是时候让他进行更技术性的训练了。
So, it’s like you’ve got to cater it to what they need.
所以，你必须满足他们的需求。
And again, depending on the opponent, it’s a game of-
再说一次，根据对手的不同，这是一场游戏——
1:42:00 To cater it to what they need.
以满足他们的需要。
And again, depending on the opponent, it’s a game of strategy.
再说一遍，这取决于对手，这是一场策略游戏。
For me, when I was more active, I look at an opponent that I want, that I could steal some clout from, off of which the clout, you can make money.
对我来说，当我更加活跃时，我会寻找一个我想要的对手，我可以从那里窃取一些影响力，利用这种影响力，你可以赚钱。
And I think to myself, “What’s the best rule set I can beat them in?”
我心里想，“我能打败他们的最佳规则是什么？”
1:42:17 That’s the strategy.
这就是策略。
And then how would I beat them in that rule set?
那么我该如何在这套规则中击败他们呢？
So there’s so many strategic layers to go above and beyond just the training for me.
因此，对我来说，除了培训之外，还有很多战略层面需要解决。
But nowadays I like to, if I train short duration, high intensity, that’s the best for me.
但现在我喜欢，如果我训练时间短、强度大，那对我来说是最好的。
I don’t like this six little, like 10, six minute rounds, whatever.
我不喜欢这种六分钟、十分钟、六分钟的回合，无论如何。
I don’t like this long training.
我不喜欢这么长时间的训练。
For me, it’s too much toll on the body.
对我来说，这对身体的伤害太大了。
I think I go to the gym, maybe the first round’s slightly light, and then just bang it out.
我想我会去健身房，也许第一轮稍微轻松一些，然后就全力以赴。
Two hard rounds tops, a little bit of problem solving.
两轮硬顶，解决一点问题。
Get out of there.
离开那里。
Because you want to feel a little bit of the competition intensity.
因为你想感受一点竞争的激烈程度。
That feels the best on my body.
这对我的身体来说感觉最好。
When you’re traveling, you’re doing seminars and you’re just doing Jiu-Jitsu with folks, are you training with them?
当你旅行时，你正在参加研讨会，你只是和人们一起做柔术，你和他们一起训练吗？
1:43:02 I’m sure, from everything I see, people would love to train with you.
我确信，从我所看到的一切来看，人们很乐意和你一起训练。
Yeah, they want to.
是的，他们想要。
1:43:13 I mean, I don’t know what it is.
我的意思是，我不知道那是什么。
Obviously, I guess it’s like people want to play basketball with a basketball star or something, you know what I mean?
显然，我想这就像人们想和篮球明星一起打篮球什么的，你知道我的意思吗？
But I guess you play one-on-one with a basketball player, there’s no great risk of injury.
但我想你和篮球运动员一对一打球，受伤的风险并不大。
That’s the real problem is if you don’t roll at your seminar, the seminar participants don’t feel like they’ve got the full experience.
真正的问题是，如果你不参加研讨会，研讨会参与者就会觉得他们没有获得完整的经验。
But, there’s snipers at these seminars.
但是，这些研讨会上有狙击手。
There’s these sharks that are circling wanting to attack you, and you have to look it…
这些鲨鱼在盘旋想要攻击你，你必须看着它......
You look at it from both perspectives.
你从两个角度来看它。
I think you should provide excellent technique.
我认为你应该提供出色的技术。
Excellent question and answer time.
优秀的问答时间。
And I think you should roll a little bit.
我认为你应该滚动一点。
For the most part, these days I’ll just roll 30 minutes straight.
大多数情况下，这些天我只会连续滚动 30 分钟。
I’ll just do 10 guys, three minutes, no break.
我会只做 10 个人，三分钟，没有休息。
30 minutes straight.
连续30分钟。
I might even get the guy to pick, again if you…
我什至可能会让那个人再次选择，如果你……
Some of these guys come in hot.
其中一些人表现得很出色。
Yeah, it’s terrifying, man.
是的，这太可怕了，伙计。
1:44:11 Because the thing is with Anthony Bourdain sort of analogy here, you’re exploring all parts of the world.
因为这与安东尼·波登（Anthony Bourdain）有某种类比，你正在探索世界各地。
You just want to be there in the culture, teach good techniques and just socialize.
你只想融入当地文化，教授良好的技术并进行社交活动。
You don’t want to…
你不想……
There’s just a bunch of killers that are trying to murder you.
只是有一群杀手想要谋杀你。
Yeah.
是的。
1:44:31 To them they’re like, “I get to test myself against a world-class athlete today.” And to you, you’re like, “Oh, I’m in Odessa.
对他们来说，他们就像是，“今天我要和世界级运动员一起测试自己。”对你来说，你会说，“哦，我在敖德萨。
I’d like to get to know the people.”
我想认识一下那里的人。”
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
“Try some food, have a couple drinks and enjoy the place.” But to them it’s time to go.
“尝试一些食物，喝几杯，享受这个地方。”但对他们来说，是时候离开了。
1:44:43 You got to rope it open a bit.
你得用绳子把它打开一点。
If I meet pressure with pressure, I get tired.
如果我面对压力，我就会感到疲倦。
But if I don’t provide resistance where they think there should be resistance now it slows their pace down.
但如果我不在他们认为现在应该有阻力的地方提供阻力，就会减慢他们的步伐。
They get shocked a bit.
他们有点震惊。
But 100%.
但100%。
If I’m at a seminar and someone’s rolling too hard with me, if I feel like I might get hurt, I’ll 100% rip a submission on them.
如果我在一个研讨会上，有人对我太用力，如果我觉得我可能会受伤，我会 100% 撕毁他们的意见。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
1:45:15 It’s like, you’re confronted with a threat.
就像，你面临着威胁。
You have to meet it with a threat.
你必须用威胁来应对它。
It’s like, I’ve spoken about this with Ryan Hall.
就像，我已经和瑞安·霍尔谈过这个问题了。
Ryan Hall will give them a warning and then gone.
瑞恩·霍尔会给他们一个警告然后就走掉。
And I think it’s perfectly acceptable.
我认为这是完全可以接受的。
I won’t endanger them for no reason, but if you are coming hot, you better tap fast.
我不会无缘无故地危及他们，但如果你来势汹汹，你最好快速点击。
If I feel a threat, you better tap.
如果我感到威胁，你最好点击。
I’m not going to break it for the sake of breaking it.
我不会为了打破它而打破它。
But if you do some crazy shit that might potentially hurt me and I get a submission and I’m tired.
但如果你做了一些疯狂的事，可能会伤害我，而我收到了提交，我就累了。
If you are fresh, you can catch a heel hook, hold it tight.
如果你是新手，你可以抓住一个脚跟钩，紧紧抓住。
The guy tries to wiggle out.
那家伙试图扭动身躯。
You got it.
你明白了。
1:45:53 If you’re tired and you’ve been nice with a heel hook and then they slip out and club you in the head, then next time is going to be the last time.
如果你累了，并且你已经用脚后跟钩子打得很好了，然后他们滑出来并用棍子打你的头，那么下一次将是最后一次。
Well last time, see you’re another level, you and Ryan Hall are just world-class.
好吧，上次，看看你是另一个水平，你和瑞安·霍尔都是世界级的。
1:46:04 But for me, I’m trying to find, navigate through this.
但对我来说，我正在努力寻找、解决这个问题。
‘Cause I’d like to be able to roll 10 rounds for fun, for cultural.
因为我希望能够为了乐趣和文化而滚动 10 轮。
Oh, but they’re coming for you too.
哦，但他们也会来找你。
And unfortunately ripping submissions or knee on belly, some kind of dominant position, people don’t hear the message at all.
不幸的是，撕毁意见书或跪在肚子上，某种主导地位，人们根本听不到信息。
1:46:19 Or if I let them submit me a bunch of times, they don’t calm down either.
或者如果我让他们多次向我提交，他们也不会冷静下来。
So I’ve been trying to figure out how to solve that puzzle.
所以我一直在想办法解决这个难题。
Because I’d like to keep rolling with people across the world for many more years to come.
因为我想在未来的许多年里继续与世界各地的人们一起前进。
But it’s tough.
但这很难。
You can’t do it.
你做不到。
1:46:43 If you’ve reached any level of notoriety, whether it’s in the sport or just as a celebrity, you’re better off to just have three, four trusted training partners and train privately.
如果你已经达到了某种程度的恶名，无论是在体育界还是仅仅作为名人，你最好只有三、四个值得信赖的训练伙伴并进行私人训练。
That’s the sad situation.
这就是可悲的情况。
People used to say, “Oh, you could be such and such and go to any gym.” No.
人们过去常说：“哦，你可以是这样那样的人，可以去任何一家健身房。”不。
Those days are over now.
那些日子现在已经结束了。
Now, if you show up and you have any sort of name, they’re coming to kill.
现在，如果你出现并且有任何名字，他们就会来杀人。
Honestly, you’re better off.
老实说，你的情况更好。
It’s so much safer.
这样更安全。
Training is about trusting.
培训就是关于信任。
Trust is built from safe rounds.
信任是通过安全回合建立的。
Yeah.
是的。
Strangers are scary.
陌生人是可怕的。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
1:47:22 I’m trying to develop a radar when I look at a person, trying to figure out.
我正在尝试开发一种雷达，当我观察一个人时，试图找出答案。
Are they…
他们是……
Are they from Eastern Europe?
他们来自东欧吗？
1:47:27 I’ll tell you what the most [inaudible 01:47:31].
我会告诉你最重要的是什么 [听不清 01:47:31]。
That’s a good one.
这是一件好事。
You know what?
你知道吗？
Anyone that wears a Pitbull sports rash guard or anyone from the country of Poland, be ready.
任何穿着比特犬运动防衣服的人或来自波兰的任何人，请做好准备。
Oh, Polish people go hard.
哦，波兰人很努力。
People go hard.
人们都在努力前行。
1:47:41 I’ve never had a flow roll with a Polish person.
我从来没有和波兰人一起进行过流量翻滚。
Somebody on Reddit asked, “How many legs did you break in Eastern Europe?”
Reddit 上有人问：“你在东欧摔断了多少条腿？”
Three or four.
三四个。
To send a message or just for your own personal enjoyment?
发送消息还是只是为了个人享受？
I don’t enjoy it.
我不喜欢它。
You don’t enjoy the violence.
你不喜欢暴力。
It is humorous after the fact though.
不过事后看来还是很幽默的。
1:47:58 I mean it’s just like, “Hey bro, I’m jet lagged, I’m tired.
我的意思是，“嘿兄弟，我有点时差，我累了。
I’m here for you guys.
我在这里为你们服务。
Why are you trying to hurt me?” If I get a submission tap, don’t hesitate at all.
你为什么想要伤害我？”如果我点击提交，请不要犹豫。
Don’t hesitate.
不要犹豫。
I mean, Jiu-Jitsu’s dangerous.
我的意思是，柔术很危险。
It’s a dangerous thing.
这是一件危险的事情。
And when strangers are going crazy, they think they’re getting invites to CJI if they tap me.
当陌生人变得疯狂时，他们认为如果他们点击我，他们就会收到 CJI 的邀请。
It’s just wild.
这太疯狂了。
So speaking of which, just for the hobbyist, for a person just starting out, what wisdom can you provide?
那么说到这里，对于业余爱好者，对于一个刚刚起步的人，你能提供什么智慧呢？
1:48:27 Say, you were tasked with coaching a beginner, a hobbyist beginner.
比如说，你的任务是指导一个初学者，一个业余爱好者的初学者。
How would you help them become good in a year?
你将如何帮助他们在一年内变得优秀？
What would be the training regimen?
训练方案是什么？
What would be their approach?
他们的做法是什么？
Mental, physical in terms of practice in Jiu-Jitsu.
柔术练习中的心理和身体。
I mean honestly picking safe training partners and trying to understand the positions and not just freaking out.
我的意思是诚实地选择安全的培训合作伙伴并尝试了解这些职位，而不仅仅是惊慌失措。
1:48:53 You might escape if you freak out, but you also might be stuck in something and you injure yourself.
如果你惊慌失措，你可能会逃脱，但你也可能被困在某物中并受伤。
So I think if you can…
所以我想如果你可以……
It’s just about longevity.
这只是为了长寿。
If you can find a pace to train at and a sort of intensity and the right people you could potentially train five years without injury.
如果你能找到训练的速度、强度和合适的人，你就有可能训练五年而不会受伤。
It’s really about how you move.
这实际上与您的移动方式有关。
If you are always moving in an explosive way, eventually you’re going to do that from a position in which you can’t move and then something’s going to tear.
如果你总是以爆炸性的方式移动，最终你会在一个无法移动的位置上这样做，然后某些东西就会撕裂。
And you also want to be able to trust training partners to not go too crazy and inflict too much pain.
而且您还希望能够相信培训合作伙伴不会太疯狂并造成太多痛苦。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
It’s like, yeah, I think I’ve managed to avoid a lot of injuries.
就像，是的，我想我已经成功避免了很多伤害。
I just never roll too athletically, explosively.
我只是从来不以运动性和爆发力的方式滚动。
I think I’m probably incapable of moving at that rate of speed.
我想我可能无法以那样的速度移动。
So that’s part of it is you the way you move.
所以这就是你移动的方式的一部分。
1:49:55 But I guess you also don’t allow anybody to put you in a really bad position in terms of hurting you.
但我想你也不允许任何人让你处于伤害你的非常糟糕的境地。
I let them put me in bad position, but I try to stay relaxed at all times.
我让他们把我置于不利的境地，但我尽量保持放松。
1:50:03 That’s the key here is, I mean, yeah, obviously you’ve got the cheesy, keep it playful.
这就是关键，我的意思是，是的，显然你很俗气，保持有趣。
But it’s like if you can remain calm in bad positions, that is a skill.
但如果你能在不利的情况下保持冷静，那就是一种技能。
That’s your confidence not in yourself, but that the other guy’s incapable of submitting you.
那不是你对自己的信心，而是对方无法屈服你。
That’s the ultimate confidence.
这就是最终的信心。
You can give him whatever you want.
你可以给他任何你想要的。
So the thing you want as a beginner is to focus on minimizing injury by relaxing, by not freaking out.
因此，作为初学者，你想要的就是通过放松而不是惊慌来专注于最大程度地减少伤害。
Yes.
是的。
1:50:34 Keeping it at a pace so you can understand what just happened.
保持节奏，以便您能够了解刚刚发生的事情。
The thing is how do you know if you’re freaking out or not?
问题是你怎么知道你是否吓坏了？
1:50:37 As a beginner.
作为初学者。
It feels like a…
感觉就像是一个……
Yeah if you’re panicking.
是的，如果你感到恐慌。
Yeah, that’s a good…
是的，这是一个很好的……
1:50:43 I mean I see a lot of beginners breathing, starting to breathe hard, they tense up.
我的意思是我看到很多初学者呼吸，开始呼吸困难，他们紧张起来。
That’s probably, underneath that is panic.
或许，这背后隐藏着恐慌。
If you can make someone panic, you’ll fatigue them.
如果你能让某人惊慌，你就会让他们感到疲劳。
1:50:53 It’s the same, it’s like even if you higher level and you’re worried about getting your guard passed, it’s the panic that leads to fatigue in your guard retention.
是一样的，即使你的等级更高，你担心自己的防守会被突破，但恐慌会导致你的防守疲劳。
But if you’re so flexible, you remain calm.
但如果你如此灵活，你就会保持冷静。
I think it’s because you’re not panicked.
我想这是因为你不惊慌。
Fear is the mind killer.
恐惧是心灵杀手。
1:51:09 But also you have one of the more innovative games in Jiu-Jitsu history.
而且您还拥有柔术历史上最具创新性的游戏之一。
How’d you develop that?
你是如何开发的？
How do you continue throughout your career?
您如何继续您的整个职业生涯？
How were you innovating?
你是如何创新的？
What was your approach to learning and figuring positions out?
您学习和确定职位的方法是什么？
Figuring submissions out?
弄清楚提交的内容？
I mean, financial motivation.
我的意思是，经济动机。
1:51:29 If you can hit moves that no one else knows how to do, you can sell those instructions.
如果你能做出别人不知道该怎么做的动作，你就可以出售这些指令。
But also it keeps it interesting.
但它也让它变得有趣。
I mean it can get stagnant and boring.
我的意思是它可能会变得停滞和无聊。
A lot of people get to blue belt, they’re good at one thing.
很多人达到蓝带时，他们都擅长一件事。
They only do that one thing.
他们只做一件事。
I think it’s finding creative ways to beat people.
我认为它正在寻找创造性的方法来击败人们。
And sometimes creativity is in how they respond to it.
有时创造力就在于他们如何应对。
So if you can find a humiliating move to do to someone, well, not even necessarily humiliating, but a move that is unexpected.
因此，如果你能找到对某人做出羞辱性的举动，那么，甚至不一定是羞辱性的，而是一个意想不到的举动。
When you get hit with something you don’t expect, I think that is sort of really one of the most fun aspects of it.
当你遇到意想不到的事情时，我认为这确实是最有趣的方面之一。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
You train to stay better than the people you’re better than.
你训练是为了比比你优秀的人保持更好。
That’s what keeps you in the game.
这就是让你留在游戏中的原因。
And finding creative ways to beat those people is some of the most entertainment.
找到创造性的方法来击败这些人是最有趣的事情之一。
So that’s just something that brings you joy, by doing the unexpected.
所以，这就是通过做意想不到的事情给你带来快乐的事情。
If you get swept with something that you don’t think should work, I think that’s fulfillment.
如果你被一些你认为不应该起作用的东西所淹没，我认为这就是满足。
So your game is even a bit trolly, interesting.
所以你的游戏甚至有点恶作剧，很有趣。
1:52:32 But what’s the actual process of, with the Z Guard, all the innovative stuff you’ve done there, how do you come up with ideas there?
但是，Z Guard 的实际过程是什么，您在那里所做的所有创新工作，您是如何在那里提出想法的？
Just studying tape.
刚学磁带。
1:52:41 Just study.
只是学习。
Study tape and try to reverse engineer.
研究磁带并尝试进行逆向工程。
If I see something or I train with someone, and it feels…
如果我看到什么东西或者和某人一起训练，感觉……
You know when you have those moments where you’re like, “Oh, I don’t even know what they’re doing here.” And if you can put someone in a position they don’t understand, that’s also where they panic.
你知道，当你有这样的时刻时，你会想，“哦，我什至不知道他们在这里做什么。”如果你把某人置于他们不理解的境地，那也是他们感到恐慌的地方。
So it’s creating different ways to make people panic.
所以它创造了不同的方式来让人们恐慌。
But also, I mean just innovation, like having fun with it.
而且，我指的是创新，比如从中获得乐趣。
I guess the artistic aspect of it is fun.
我想它的艺术方面很有趣。
You can be creative in how you can beat people.
你可以发挥创造力来击败别人。
Did you say artistic or autistic?
你说的是艺术还是自闭？
Both.
两个都。
1:53:15 Both.
两个都。
Okay.
好的。
Just checking.
只是检查。
What’s the most innovative thing you’ve come up with?
你想出的最具创新性的东西是什么？
What’s some of the cooler ideas you’ve come up on the mat?
你在垫子上想到过哪些更酷的想法？
I don’t think I’ve come up with anything, but I’ve popularized things.
我认为我没有想出任何东西，但我已经普及了一些东西。
1:53:25 Like certain styles of leg entry.
就像某些类型的腿部进入一样。
I definitely didn’t invent them, but I popularized them.
我绝对没有发明它们，但我普及了它们。
Octopus guard, playing more from turtle, sort of the pinning style of game.
章鱼守卫，更多的是从乌龟身上玩，有点像固定风格的游戏。
Because of my jokes online, put me in a position of power in the sport so that when I post content, it can popularize a move or at least an instructional popularize a game.
因为我在网上的笑话，让我在这项运动中处于权力地位，这样当我发布内容时，它可以普及一个动作，或者至少是一个教学普及一个游戏。
But still, I’m not trying to sell inauthentic products.
但尽管如此，我并不是想销售假货。
I’m still, I want the technique to work, be…
我仍然，我希望这项技术能够发挥作用，是……
Functional.
功能齐全。
Yeah.
是的。
But put some humor on top of it.
但除此之外还要加上一些幽默。
1:54:00 Like power bottom.
就像电源底部一样。
Your instructional names are pretty good.
你的教学名字很好。
And you changed that one.
而你改变了那个。
I saw the name of that.
我看到了那个名字。
I mean unfortunately Meta, the ads were not appreciating some of that humor, so we had to soften the titles a bit.
我的意思是，不幸的是，Meta，广告并没有欣赏其中的一些幽默，所以我们不得不稍微软化标题。
You got a phone call from the man that said, “Change this.”
你接到那个人打来的电话，说：“改变这个。”
I didn’t.
我没有。
1:54:18 Allegedly, the company hosting it did.
据称，托管该事件的公司确实这样做了。
Right.
正确的。
1:54:23 What do you think about Zuck in general?
您对扎克的总体看法如何？
The fact that he trains Jiu-Jitsu.
事实上他训练柔术。
Have you got a chance to train with him?
你有机会和他一起训练吗？
You’ve trained with Volk?
你和沃尔克一起训练过吗？
I haven’t trained with him.
我没有和他一起训练过。
1:54:32 I met him when Volk fought Ilia.
我是在沃尔克与伊利亚战斗时认识他的。
We’ve spoken briefly.
我们已经简短地谈过了。
Interesting guy for sure, loves Jiu-Jitsu, loves MMA.
确实是个有趣的人，喜欢柔术，喜欢综合格斗。
Is really intending to compete in something I think.
我真的打算参加一些我认为的比赛。
Competing in Jiu-Jitsu, intends to compete in MMA, has a beginner’s mind, is humble about it.
参加柔术，打算参加MMA，有初学者的心态，对此保持谦虚。
1:54:47 It’s interesting.
这很有趣。
Was he ever in consideration for CJI?
他有考虑过CJI吗？
Oh, I mean we would love to have him.
哦，我的意思是我们很想拥有他。
1:54:56 We’d love to have him, but he’s coming off of ACL surgery.
我们很想拥有他，但他刚刚完成前交叉韧带手术。
Think he’s returned to sport August.
我想他八月就重返运动场了。
I think he’d be back training again soon.
我认为他很快就会再次恢复训练。
Yeah.
是的。
1:55:06 What your relationship has been like with Volkanovski, like what have you learned about martial arts, about grappling in different domains?
你和沃尔卡诺夫斯基的关系如何，比如你对武术、不同领域的格斗学到了什么？
Just training with him.
只是和他一起训练。
I mean for me personally, what’s so interesting about Volkanovski is his, I guess where he came from.
我的意思是对我个人来说，沃尔卡诺夫斯基最有趣的地方在于他，我猜他来自哪里。
1:55:17 It’s like you have pre-existing ideas of what a UFC champion is.
就像你对什么是 UFC 冠军有预先存在的想法一样。
Again, I would say it’s similar to when I started training Jiu-Jitsu and I first traveled to America and got to train with some really famous people.
再说一遍，我想说这就像我开始训练柔术时一样，我第一次去美国并与一些非常有名的人一起训练。
You realize how relatable they are in some aspects.
您意识到它们在某些方面是多么相关。
Volkanovski trains a freestyle and it is humble beginnings.
沃尔卡诺夫斯基开始练习自由泳，起步很卑微。
Humble origins.
出身卑微。
It’s a small gym in a small sort of beach side city.
这是一个位于海滨小城市的小型健身房。
They’re run on puzzle mats.
它们在拼图垫上运行。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
If you think UFC champion, you don’t think puzzle mat gym, you know what I mean?
如果你想到 UFC 冠军，你不会想到拼图垫健身房，你知道我的意思吗？
He’s not training at American Top Team, he’s not at one of these big gyms.
他不是在美国顶级球队训练，也不是在这些大型体育馆之一。
So to me it just shows what you’re capable of through hard work and sort of self-educating in such an isolated place.
所以对我来说，它只是展示了你在如此偏僻的地方通过努力工作和自我教育的能力。
1:56:11 It’s insane to me that he’s still considered probably the pound for pound best featherweight ever in my opinion.
在我看来，他仍然被认为是有史以来最好的羽量级选手，这对我来说很疯狂。
And he’s basically come across and started late from a rugby background.
他基本上是从橄榄球背景起步并起步较晚的。
But also in terms of what I’ve learned on a technical level, I’ve picked up a lot of stuff from him in sort of grappling exchanges.
但就我在技术层面上学到的东西而言，我在与他的交流中学到了很多东西。
How to get back up.
如何重新站起来。
Obviously, wall wrestling.
显然，是墙摔跤。
In terms of how hard he trains, how hard he works the cardio aspect is insane.
就他训练的努力程度而言，他在有氧运动方面的努力程度是疯狂的。
His cardio workouts are absolutely insane.
他的有氧运动绝对是疯狂的。
So he is the opposite of you, essentially.
所以他本质上与你相反。
Complete opposite of me probably publicly and privately as an athlete.
作为一名运动员，无论公开还是私下，我都可能完全相反。
1:56:44 Yeah.
是的。
The amount of work he puts in and just his sheer mental willpower.
他投入的工作量和纯粹的精神意志力。
I remember there’s been a couple of times where I’ve watched him do weight cuts where like, ” That’s horrible.” You’re watching your friend, obviously we started as basically I would help him in certain Jui Jitsu aspects, and then becomes a close friend of yours.
我记得有几次我看到他减肥，我就想：“太可怕了。”你正在看着你的朋友，显然我们一开始基本上是我会在柔术的某些方面帮助他，然后成为你的亲密朋友。
1:57:10 But the whole process of the MMA fight is horrible, especially when you care about the person fighting because some of those weight cuts you see are awful.
但综合格斗比赛的整个过程是可怕的，尤其是当你关心比赛的人时，因为你看到的一些减肥效果很糟糕。
You’re basically seeing guys’ eyes roll back in their head, like him just powering through a five kilo, 10 pound cut.
你基本上会看到人们的眼睛在他们的头上翻滚，就像他刚刚通过 5 公斤、10 磅的训练一样。
And just constantly talking about how easy it is.
并且不断地谈论它是多么容易。
But while clearly, I mean these guys look like they’re dying.
但很明显，我的意思是这些人看起来快要死了。
To push through that, and then to push through some of the moments in his fight.
克服这一点，然后克服他战斗中的一些时刻。
To watch him be completely relaxed until five minutes before the fight and then he starts talking about, “You’re never going to take this belt away from my family.” He’s thinking about his family before he fights, his kids.
看着他完全放松，直到比赛前五分钟，然后他开始谈论，“你永远不会从我的家人手中夺走这条腰带。”他在战斗之前会想到他的家人，他的孩子。
You see the character change.
你会看到角色的变化。
It’s just absolutely insane to watch.
观看起来真是太疯狂了。
1:57:59 On the other side of that is obviously watching the ups and downs.
另一方面显然是在关注涨跌。
It’s been so many ups.
已经经历了很多起起落落。
The last two have been downs.
最后两次都是低迷。
So you’re seeing the full spectrum of the highest highs and the lowest lows.
因此，您会看到最高点和最低点的全部范围。
How’s he able to deal psychologically with loss?
他如何在心理上应对损失？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
1:58:16 Obviously he’s still hungry, still motivated.
显然他仍然饥饿，仍然充满动力。
Obviously I thrive in a losing environment, but him on the other hand, I’m not sure.
显然，我在失败的环境中茁壮成长，但另一方面，我不确定。
We don’t talk too much on that level.
我们不会在这个层面上谈论太多。
Obviously we check in as friends, see what he’s up to, see what he’s planning.
显然，我们以朋友的身份来查看，看看他在做什么，看看他有什么计划。
We were trying to get him a grappling match at CJI.
我们试图让他在 CJI 进行一场缠斗比赛。
I won’t say the reasons it fell through, but we were setting one up with Mikey Musumeci, but we couldn’t get it done.
我不会说它失败的原因，但我们正在与 Mikey Musumeci 一起建立一个，但我们无法完成它。
And you can’t say the reasons why.
而且你也不能说出原因。
I can’t say the reasons, but would’ve been awesome.
我不能说出原因，但那就太棒了。
Do you think you could have set that up if you had more time?
如果您有更多时间，您认为您可以设置它吗？
1:58:49 Part of the challenge here is for some of these gigantic matchups, I feel like it takes time.
这里的部分挑战是对于其中一些巨大的对决，我觉得这需要时间。
Being the promoter.
作为发起人。
1:59:00 Tournament, not as bad.
锦标赛，没那么糟糕。
The superfights really, really difficult.
超级大战真的非常非常困难。
I don’t think we could have set it up with more time, that particular match.
我不认为我们可以用更多的时间来准备那场特别的比赛。
But that was the dream.
但这就是梦想。
That’s what we were hoping to do.
这就是我们希望做的。
But there’s a lot of other interesting matchups that you could have possibly gotten through if there’s more time.
但如果有更多时间的话，还有很多其他有趣的比赛你可能会完成。
Yeah, I’d love to see, I mean personally I really want to see Volks and Ortega have an actual grappling match.
是的，我很想看到，我个人真的很想看到沃尔克斯和奥尔特加进行一场真正的缠斗比赛。
1:59:18 We saw him get out of those deep submissions and apply a ton of ground power.
我们看到他摆脱了那些深深的屈服并运用了大量的地面力量。
I’d love to see them just have a grappling match.
我很想看到他们进行一场缠斗比赛。
I’d love to see more of the UFC stars have grappling matches, especially if they’ve had any head trauma in a fight.
我很想看到更多 UFC 明星参加格斗比赛，特别是如果他们在战斗中头部受伤的话。
It’s like, “Hey, let’s keep them busy.” As you see, some of those guys go crazy if they can’t train.
就像，“嘿，让他们忙起来吧。”正如你所看到的，有些人如果不能训练就会发疯。
What about the fights against Makhachev?
与马哈乔夫的战斗怎么样？
1:59:44 You think Volk can beat him?
你认为沃尔克能打败他吗？
I think the first fight showed he could beat him, for sure showed it’s possible.
我认为第一场比赛表明他可以击败他，当然表明这是可能的。
1:59:48 Even in the second fight, when he reversed the grappling exchange.
即使在第二场比赛中，他逆转了缠斗交锋。
I wish he’d tried to take Makhachev down.
我希望他曾试图打倒马哈乔夫。
I really think he has a huge strength advantage against Makhachev and I personally believe he has a fence wrestling advantage.
我真的认为他对马哈乔夫有巨大的力量优势，而且我个人相信他在栅栏摔跤方面有优势。
You might not see it in a sense of the technical hip tosses and things like that really, but I do believe Volk’s one of the best, if not the best cage wrestler in the world.
你可能不会真正从技术性的抛臀之类的角度来看待它，但我确实相信沃尔克即使不是世界上最好的笼式摔跤手，也是最好的之一。
But who do you think wins in a grappling match?
但你认为在一场格斗比赛中谁会获胜呢？
That would be interesting.
那会很有趣。
2:00:21 Would be interesting.
会很有趣的。
The problem is two almost to while you are a champion like Islam is you could just never book them.
问题是，当你是像伊斯兰教这样的冠军时，你几乎永远不会预订他们的两个问题。
You could never get it.
你永远无法得到它。
What do you think makes the Dagestani wrestlers and fighters so good?
您认为是什么让达吉斯坦摔跤手和战士如此出色？
I think personally, those guys are just like, they just love it.
我个人认为，那些家伙只是喜欢它。
2:00:36 It’s just about, it’s how they train.
这就是他们的训练方式。
It’s a fight to the death, you know what I mean?
这是一场你死我活的战斗，你明白我的意思吗？
It’s just built in them.
它只是内置于它们之中。
They don’t want to concede an inch ever.
他们不想让步一寸。
I think for MMA and wrestling, that can be very, very good.
我认为对于综合格斗和摔跤来说，这可能非常非常好。
I think sometimes when those guys come over to Jiu-Jitsu specific events, they get leglocked.
我认为有时当那些家伙参加柔术特定活动时，他们会被锁住。
They fall into traps.
他们落入陷阱。
Overly aggressive or overly evasive.
过于激进或过于回避。
But I think the way they train just is perfect for a fight.
但我认为他们的训练方式非常适合战斗。
A fight, they can just forward pressure, eat some shots, grind a guy against the wall.
一场战斗，他们可以向前压，吃一些球，把一个人按在墙上。
Fence wrestling is technical.
摔跤是一项技术活。
Jiu-jitsu is far more technical.
柔术更具技术性。
2:01:17 There’s way more things you can do in a grappling scenario from top and bottom than I think against the wall.
在从上到下的缠斗场景中，你可以做的事情比我想象的对墙要多。
So a grinding nature of how they train works really good to walk a guy down and take him down against the wall.
因此，他们训练方式的磨砺性质非常适合将一个人推倒并把他推倒在墙上。
And then obviously with ground and pound, very good to hold a guy down.
然后显然是用地面和重击，非常好地压住一个人。
So I think just never conceding an inch in training.
所以我认为在训练中决不让步。
It’s just they’ve done that since they were born, basically.
基本上，他们从出生起就这么做了。
So you learn how to grind somebody down?
那么你学会了如何压垮某人吗？
Yeah, they’re just trying to break each other at all times.
是的，他们总是想破坏对方。
2:01:44 Trying to have some dominance over their friends and who they train with.
试图对他们的朋友和与他们一起训练的人有一定的支配地位。
But you think in the grappling context, that will not always translate?
但你认为在格斗的背景下，这并不总是可以翻译的吗？
Not when you can pull guard and submit from your back.
不是当你可以拉开防守并从背后屈服的时候。
2:01:57 I think that sort of negates some of that grinding pressure.
我认为这可以抵消一些磨砺压力。
I think that has to be met with more slow technical lateral movement.
我认为这必须通过更缓慢的技术横向移动来满足。
I think that’s the way you…
我想这就是你的方式……
That would be the dream for me is that guy just comes straight forward into my guard.
我的梦想就是那个家伙径直冲上我的防线。
That grinding approach works well if he’s taken me down and got already close to me.
如果他已经把我打倒并且已经接近我了，那么这种折磨人的方式就会很有效。
But if I’m laying flat on my back and he’s standing and he has to engage, he has all that danger at range.
但如果我平躺着，而他站着，他必须交战，那么他就面临着所有危险。
But if he can connect to my body before we go down, now we’re in his world again.
但如果他能在我们倒下之前连接到我的身体，那么现在我们又回到了他的世界。
I think.
我认为。
I wonder if it’s like, at his prime could be versus you for example.
我想知道在他的巅峰时期是否可以与你对抗。
2:02:34 Who do you think wins there?
你认为谁会赢？
Buggy choke for sure.
越野车肯定会窒息。
Buggy choke.
越野车窒息。
2:02:41 No way.
决不。
I know you’re joking.
我知道你在开玩笑。
We get in with a buggy, I reckon.
我想我们是开着一辆越野车进去的。
Really?
真的吗？
2:02:47 So you can get a buggy choke at the highest level.
所以你可以获得最高级别的越野车扼流圈。
Can you educate me on that?
你能教我这方面的知识吗？
That legitimately can work?
这合法有效吗？
At the highest level?
在最高级别？
Buggy choke for sure.
越野车肯定会窒息。
2:02:56 Yeah.
是的。
Really?
真的吗？
Catch anyone.
抓住任何人。
Really?
真的吗？
2:03:00 Okay.
好的。
You’re not a buggy believer.
你不是越野车的信徒。
I’m not a buggy hater either.
我也不是一个讨厌越野车的人。
2:03:05 I’m just, I’m agnostic on the buggy choke.
我只是，我对越野车的扼流圈持不可知论。
Khabib would go to sleep for sure.
哈比卜肯定会去睡觉。
Yeah?
是的？
Yeah.
是的。
2:03:13 There’s no way he would tap to a buggy choke.
他不可能去踩越野车的窒息装置。
Who was it?
是谁？
I faced recently, I faced a Russian guy from Tata.
我最近遇到了一个来自塔塔的俄罗斯人。
I couldn’t buggy him.
我不能打扰他。
I was trying a closed guard one though, sort of.
不过，我正在尝试一种封闭式防守。
It is harder to pull off, but I had to put him to sleep twice at the end of the match with a triangle.
这很难实现，但我不得不在比赛结束时用一个三角球让他睡了两次。
But he was just willing.
但他只是心甘情愿。
I don’t know, Eastern European guys, it’s like they’re treating it like a real fight.
我不知道，东欧人，他们好像把这当作一场真正的战斗。
Have you ever gone hard with a Dagestani person?
你曾经对达吉斯坦人很严厉吗？
2:03:37 Grappling, wrestling, any of the fighters, any of the MMA guys?
格斗、摔跤、任何拳击手、任何综合格斗选手吗？
Have I, have I, have I?
我有，我有，我有吗？
2:03:48 I mean they do train hard.
我的意思是他们确实训练得很刻苦。
They do train hard.
他们训练确实很刻苦。
When I did the seminar in Odessa, it was at a school, but another school in the city brought like 10 Dagestani guys.
当我在敖德萨举办研讨会时，是在一所学校举办的，但该市的另一所学校带来了大约 10 名达吉斯坦人。
All of them went insanely hard.
他们所有人都变得异常努力。
I was like, “Guys,” it’s a small sample size, but they all wanted to be broken.
我当时想，“伙计们，”这是一个很小的样本，但他们都想被打破。
What do you think, you as the wise sage of Jiu-Jitsu, if you look 10, 20 years out, how do you think the game is going to evolve?
作为柔术圣人，你认为10年、20年后，你认为这项运动将如何发展？
2:04:09 The art of it.
它的艺术。
The art of it.
它的艺术。
2:04:17 I mean, I think obviously people are going to keep innovating, perfecting certain things, throwing out information, bad sort of techniques, bad sort of…
我的意思是，我认为显然人们会不断创新，完善某些东西，丢弃信息，糟糕的技术，糟糕的……
But I mean it’s so hard to predict.
但我的意思是这很难预测。
It’s like that’s the game of making money off the instructionals is predicting where we go next.
这就像通过指导赚钱的游戏是预测我们下一步要去哪里。
It’s so, so difficult.
太难了。
What do you think is going to be the most popular submissions on CGI and ADCC this year?
您认为今年 CGI 和 ADCC 上最受欢迎的提交内容是什么？
2:04:36 Is it going to be footlocks or rear naked?
是锁脚还是裸露？
I think actually CGI, I think there’s going to be a lot of guys that don’t tap, that take injuries.
我认为实际上 CGI，我认为会有很多人不拍球，从而受伤。
2:04:43 A small concern is that a guy wins the match but is so injured he can barely go onto the next match.
一个小问题是，一个人赢得了比赛，但受伤严重，几乎无法参加下一场比赛。
Win the battle, lose the war.
赢得战斗，输掉战争。
We are going to see that.
我们将会看到这一点。
2:04:59 Aren’t we?
我们不是吗？
People refusing to tap.
人们拒绝点击。
Actually we did the walkthrough yesterday and we were like, “One ambulance is not enough.
事实上，我们昨天进行了演练，我们的想法是，“一辆救护车是不够的。
2:05:03 Get a second one here.” If they take one guy injured to hospital, we can’t continue until an ambulance comes back.
在这里再买一个。”如果他们将一名受伤者送往医院，我们就无法继续，直到救护车回来。
So these guys are going to go, everyone will be Dagestani for a day.
所以这些人要走了，每个人都将成为达吉斯坦一天。
That’s what I think this tournament will achieve.
这就是我认为本次比赛将实现的目标。
2:05:23 But progression, it’ll just be the integration of wrestling into Jiu-Jitsu.
但进步的话，只是将摔跤融入柔术中。
I think that would be the most exciting way the sport could progress.
我认为这将是这项运动取得进步的最令人兴奋的方式。
It’s basically folk style wrestling, but an integration of submissions from the standing position too.
它基本上是民间风格的摔跤，但也融合了站立姿势的投降。
If you just follow the rules of you should always be fighting to get on top, whether that’s a submission that leads to a sweep or a sweep.
如果你只是遵循规则，那么你应该始终为取得领先而奋斗，无论是提交导致横扫还是横扫。
And you should be trying to avoid being pinned.
并且您应该尽力避免被固定。
And as long as the game revolves around that and guys engage each other offensively on their feet, that would be the most exciting, best way to watch the sport.
只要比赛围绕这一点展开，并且球员们用脚互相进攻，这将是观看这项运动的最令人兴奋、最好的方式。
Yeah.
是的。
2:06:02 When I show the sport of Jiu-Jitsu, the most exciting stuff is whenever both people want to be wrestling, scrambling, wrestling, they both want to get on top.
当我展示柔术这项运动时，最令人兴奋的事情是每当两个人都想摔跤、争抢、摔跤时，他们都想登上顶峰。
Yeah, the scramble.
是的，争夺。
That looks like fighting versus guard stuff.
这看起来就像是与守卫打架的事情。
I’m a guy that totally agrees with you, but if I think the guy’s a better wrestler, I’ll concede.
我是一个完全同意你观点的人，但如果我认为这个人是一个更好的摔跤手，我会承认。
2:06:15 It’s like that’s the hard part.
这似乎是最困难的部分。
But then the whole crowd will then mock you ceaselessly, as they should for conceding.
但随后整个人群就会不断地嘲笑你，就像他们应该承认的那样。
That’s what the million should be.
这才是百万应该有的样子。
2:06:29 We should have a tournament or a round-robin thing where it’s like the million goes to the most exciting man, who took the most risks.
我们应该举办一场锦标赛或循环赛，就像百万奖金颁给最激动人心、承担最大风险的人一样。
I mean, in a way that’s what’s going to happen because this is quite open.
我的意思是，在某种程度上这就是将会发生的事情，因为这是相当开放的。
2:06:37 So the benefit of being exciting is you’re going to be glorified on social media and if you’re going to be boring and stall, you’re going to be endlessly sort of willified.
因此，令人兴奋的好处是，你会在社交媒体上受到赞扬，而如果你变得无聊和停滞不前，你就会变得无休止的任性。
Forget about medals, social media glory is all that matters.
忘掉奖牌吧，社交媒体上的荣耀才是最重要的。
Well, in a certain sense, on a basic human level, yeah.
嗯，从某种意义上说，在基本的人类层面上，是的。
2:06:56 I mean not all that matters.
我的意思是，这并不重要。
But if you’re going to stall, you’re going to become a meme I feel like, especially with CGI.
但如果你要停滞不前，我觉得你就会成为一个模因，尤其是在 CGI 方面。
Are the refs going to try to stop stalling?
裁判们会试图阻止拖延吗？
Yeah, we’re going to penalize them hard.
是的，我们将严厉惩罚他们。
2:07:11 Hit them hard, get that boring shit out of here.
狠狠地打击他们，把那些无聊的东西赶出这里。
So what percentage of athletes would you say are on steroids?
那么你认为服用类固醇的运动员比例是多少？
2:07:16 Is it a hundred percent?
是百分百吗？
Anyone that’s ever beaten me, they’re taking more steroids than me.
任何曾经打败过我的人，他们服用的类固醇都比我多。
2:07:22 I don’t know.
我不知道。
I wanted to test them, but not to do anything bad, but just in the name of science to see what people are running.
我想测试它们，但不是做任何坏事，只是以科学的名义看看人们在做什么。
It’s so hard to say because you train with people and they don’t even tell you what they’re on.
这很难说，因为你和别人一起训练，他们甚至不告诉你他们在做什么。
I tell the world what I’m on and they go, “Look at you, you’re not taking any steroids.” It’s like such a secret thing.
我告诉全世界我在吃什么，他们却说：“看看你，你没有服用任何类固醇。”这就像一个秘密的事情。
I personally think it’s almost impossible to say, but occasionally you look at a guy and you’re pretty certain.
我个人认为这几乎不可能说，但偶尔你看着一个人，你就很确定。
The looks of it.
它的外观。
2:07:56 But it could also go the other way.
但也可能出现相反的情况。
Certain people are just genetically built and they look like they are.
有些人是天生的，而且他们看起来也是如此。
And then there’s probably others like yourself.
然后可能还有像你一样的人。
It’s a self-defense mechanism.
这是一种自卫机制。
2:08:07 You’d rather assume that that guy was on steroids than his genetics are so far superior to yours.
你宁愿假设那个人服用了类固醇，也不愿认为他的基因比你优越得多。
You’re like, “Nah, it must be steroids.”
你会说，“不，一定是类固醇。”
Yeah, that’s the part of accusations of people being on steroids that I hate.
是的，这就是我讨厌的关于人们服用类固醇的指控。
2:08:19 It’s like without data, people are just like, it’s a way they can say that somebody’s cheating without…
就像没有数据一样，人们就像，这是他们可以说某人作弊的一种方式，而无需......
Because I like celebrating people and sometimes people aren’t on steroids and they aren’t cheating and they’re just fucking good.
因为我喜欢庆祝人们，有时人们没有服用类固醇，他们没有作弊，他们只是他妈的很好。
What about Gabby Garcia?
加比·加西亚呢？
I think she’s beautiful, strong.
我觉得她很漂亮，很坚强。
2:08:38 You’re a lucky man to share the mat with her.
你很幸运能和她共用垫子。
You should be honored.
你应该感到荣幸。
I am betting a huge amount of money on her, so…
我在她身上下了一大笔钱，所以……
Me too.
我也是。
Either way, you’re going to get paid.
不管怎样，你都会得到报酬。
She’s paying 11 to one.
她支付的是 11 比 1。
I bet on love as well.
我也赌爱情。
2:08:56 So we are aligned in that way.
所以我们以这种方式保持一致。
Love will prevail.
爱将会占上风。
Okay, you put Alex Jones to sleep.
好吧，你让亚历克斯·琼斯睡着了。
2:09:00 Just to reflect back on that, what was…
只是回想一下，什么是……
He was too woke.
他太醒了。
2:09:09 He needed it.
他需要它。
So that’s you fighting the woke mind virus or whatever?
那你是在对抗觉醒的心灵病毒还是其他什么？
I think it was on the pulse too much.
我认为它太紧张了。
What was that like?
那是什么样子的？
2:09:15 I didn’t see the full video.
我没有看到完整的视频。
I just saw a little clip.
我刚看到一个小片段。
I thought he was dead for a second.
我有一瞬间以为他死了。
2:09:20 But I, for some strange reason, couldn’t stop laughing.
但出于某种奇怪的原因，我忍不住笑了。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
I was like, please wake up.
我当时想，请醒来。
There’s something funny about it.
这有一些有趣的事情。
2:09:26 Yeah.
是的。
I was like, his blood pressure is higher than mine.
我当时想，他的血压比我高。
2:09:28 I hope that didn’t cook him.
我希望那没有把他煮熟。
Yeah, that would be quite sad.
是的，那会很悲伤。
It’s so crazy.
太疯狂了。
Murder somebody.
谋杀某人。
Yeah, he’s probably the most just entertaining human being ever.
是的，他可能是有史以来最有趣的人。
2:09:36 He just says the…
他只是说……
Like, off-air.
比如，停播。
He’s always on.
他总是在线。
He’s always ready to say some wild shit.
他总是准备好说一些疯狂的废话。
The craziest shit possible.
可能是最疯狂的狗屎。
2:09:52 What’s it like going to sleep?
睡觉是什么感觉？
I somehow have never gone to sleep.
不知怎的，我从来没有睡过觉。
I went to sleep one time.
有一次我去睡觉了。
2:09:58 Lachlan Charles was demonstrating a technique on me, but I woke up straight away.
拉克兰·查尔斯正在向我演示一种技巧，但我立刻就醒了。
But for 10 seconds I didn’t know who I was, where I was, what I was doing.
但有十秒钟我不知道自己是谁、在哪里、在做什么。
But that’s it.
但就是这样。
That’s the only time I went out.
那是我唯一一次出去。
Saw anything.
看到了什么。
Didn’t feel good though.
不过感觉不太好。
2:10:09 Some people say it feels good.
有人说感觉很好。
Did not feel good.
感觉不太好。
You were like what?
你当时像什么？
2:10:12 Panicked.
惊慌失措。
Lost.
丢失的。
Yeah.
是的。
I just didn’t know what was going on.
我只是不知道发生了什么事。
Yeah.
是的。
2:10:17 And then you load it…
然后你加载它......
That must be a cool feeling to load it all back in.
将所有内容重新加载进来一定是一种很酷的感觉。
Realize, “Where am I?” I feel like that sometimes at a hotel when I’m traveling.
意识到，“我在哪里？”当我旅行时，有时在酒店里我也会有这种感觉。
It’s like, “Where the fuck am I again?” When you wake up.
就像，“我他妈又在哪儿了？”当你醒来时。
Maybe that’s what it’s like.
也许就是这样。
Some people push it too far.
有些人把它推得太远了。
2:10:29 David Carradine.
大卫·卡拉丁。
What?
什么？
2:10:33 I’m too dumb to get that joke.
我太笨了，听不懂这个笑话。
Autoerotic asphyxiation.
自慰窒息。
Oh, good.
哦，很好。
2:10:40 Thank you.
谢谢。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Now I know.
现在我知道了。
So given all the places you’ve gone, all the people you’ve seen recently, what gives you hope about this whole thing we’ve got going on?
那么，考虑到你去过的所有地方、最近见过的所有人，是什么让你对我们正在进行的整件事充满希望？
About humanity, about this world?
关于人类，关于这个世界？
We start war sometimes.
我们有时会发动战争。
We do horrible things to each other sometimes.
有时我们会对彼此做出可怕的事情。
Amidst all that.
在这一切之中。
What gives you hope?
是什么给了你希望？
That you can still make fun of anything.
你仍然可以取笑任何事情。
2:11:04 As long as it’s funny.
只要有趣就行。
That’s what I’m fighting for.
这就是我所奋斗的目标。
People talk about cancel culture.
人们谈论取消文化。
I just think the joke wasn’t funny enough.
我只是觉得这个笑话不够好笑。
Had poor delivery.
交货不佳。
Well, thank you for being at the forefront of making fun of everything and anything.
好吧，谢谢你站在最前线取笑一切。
2:11:19 And thank you for talking today, brother.
谢谢你今天的发言，兄弟。
Thank you bro.
谢谢你兄弟。
Thanks for listening to this conversation with Craig Jones.
感谢您收听克雷格·琼斯的对话。
2:11:27 To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description.
为了支持这个播客，请在说明中查看我们的赞助商。
And now let me leave you with some words from Anthony Bourdain.
现在让我向你们传达安东尼·波登的话。
“Travel changes you.
“旅行改变你。
As you move through this life and this world, you change things slightly.
当你经历这一生和这个世界时，你会稍微改变一些事情。
You leave marks behind, however small, and in return, life and travel leaves marks on you.” Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.
你会留下痕迹，无论多么小，作为回报，生活和旅行都会在你身上留下痕迹。”感谢您的聆听，并希望下次再见。
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