彼得·莱维尔斯：编程、爆红的 AI 创业与数字游民生活
Pieter Levels: Programming, Viral AI Startups, and Digital Nomad Life
独立开发者谈独自做产品与 AI 创业的经验、流量增长，以及长期数字游民的生活方式。
2013 年，一个荷兰年轻人坐在泰国清迈的酒店房间里，盯着天花板。他 27 岁，每月进账 500 美元，大学同学都在荷兰买房、上班、结婚，他觉得自己是个没人看得见的失败者。就在那一年，他给自己定了个规矩：接下来 12 个月，每个月做一个能收钱的产品。这个规矩后来叫「12 Startups in 12 Months」。他是 Pieter Levels，X 上的 levelsio。
十年后，他一个人做出了 Photo AI、Interior AI、Nomad List、Remote OK、Hood Maps，住过 40 多个国家、150 多个城市，整条产品线没请过一个全职工程师，技术栈是 PHP、jQuery、SQLite。没有 VC，没有融资，没有团队，没有办公室，经常穿着短裤坐在酒店沙发上写代码。
先讲一个细节，再讲他的哲学
Photo AI 起步的时候，Stable Diffusion 画人还只是半成品，人脸经常是扭曲的。Pieter 在 Twitter 上看到有人分享微调模型（fine-tuned model），下载下来一试，照片里的人体结构突然合理了，皮肤有质感，光影有逻辑。他很奇怪这些模型为什么效果这么好，一查训练数据，发现底层用的是色情内容。
这个发现后来变成 AI 图像创业里非常现实的一个问题：市面上流传的写实风基础模型，多多少少都带着裸露内容。他必须在提示词里反复写「穿着衣服」「不要裸体」，还得给每张出图加一道 Google Vision 的 NSFW 检测，因为他被记者抓到过一次疏漏，一篇报道直接写「这个 AI 应用生成了乳头」。
你得一直提醒模型，「给这个东西穿上衣服」。因为风险太高，我加了 Google Vision，每张图显示给用户之前都先检测一遍。（Pieter Levels）
这个细节能说明 Pieter 做产品的姿态。他的出发点很具体：我手上这东西现在跑出来什么，然后处理每个具体的坑。他从不假装 AI 已经完美。他在播客里笑着说，AI 创业公司都装得像这是划时代的技术，其实一半的时候效果很烂。
不融资的理由：他算过账
大多数创业公司的路径是：融钱、招人、做产品、找能变现的东西。Pieter 走的是完全相反的方向：不融钱、不招人、自己设计、自己写代码、自己画 logo、自己发推推广。
原因是速度。他在播客里举了 Google 的例子：Transformer 是 Google 发明的，ChatGPT 这种形态的东西据说 2019 年 Google 内部就能做出来，但一直被官僚体系卡着没上线。他自己一个人坐在酒店房间里，穿条短裤，随时可以部署，不需要问法务「这个能不能上」。
一个人在酒店里穿短裤写代码，我上线速度可以非常快，因为我不需要问任何人。（Pieter Levels）
更关键的是他算过「不融资」的收益。他的公司利润率在 90% 左右。一般公司被收购时的估值是利润或收入的 3 到 5 倍。那么卖掉公司拿到的钱，等于再干 3 到 5 年的收入，而且卖了之后公司就不是自己的了。按 3 倍算，他完全可以等三年，赚到同样的钱，公司还在手上。除非有人出到 6 倍、7 倍、8 倍，卖掉在财务上根本不划算。
他还在播客里讲了一个更阴暗的观察：很多收购流程本质上是消耗战。买家先跟你谈，说对你很有兴趣，然后要尽调，要看你 Stripe 数据，要看你代码，折腾 6 到 12 个月。等你已经投入了这么多时间精力，他们会在最后砍价，因为知道你舍不得退出。
12 个创业项目，12 个月，是怎么开始的
Pieter 毕业后不想找正经工作。他在大学时做电子音乐，有一个 YouTube 频道叫 Panda Mix Show，上传 dubstep、drum and bass、techno 的混音，AdSense 每月给他 2000 美元。但朋友们都去上班了，工作日不能再一起玩，只有周末能见面。他觉得这种生活他不想要，于是飞到亚洲，开始数字游民的日子。
一年之后他更抑郁了。在清迈、曼谷的酒店房间里，一个人盯着天花板，钱在减少，收入掉到每月 500 美元，朋友在荷兰越过越好。他把那段时间叫「土星回归」：27 岁，土星回到出生时所在的位置，很多艺术家在这个年纪去世。他说那是一种「我在浪费人生」的感觉。
他父亲给了他一个很不像现代心理治疗的方案：如果你抑郁，就去弄一堆沙子，拿把铁锹，从这边铲到那边，干重活，做点事，不要坐着不动。他父亲一辈子都在翻修家里的房子，翻完一间去下一间，绕着房子转了 40 年。Pieter 说，通过干活来治抑郁这件事，他是从父亲那里学的。
于是有了 12 Startups in 12 Months。规则很简单：每个月做一个产品，上线，接 Stripe，看有没有人真的掏钱。他把这件事写成博客文章发出去，发到 Hacker News，公开承诺，这样就没办法赖账。
第一个产品叫 Play My Inbox。2013 年还没有 Spotify，朋友之间通过 Gmail 互发 YouTube 链接分享音乐，长邮件串根本没法看。他写了一个应用，登录你的 Gmail，找出所有带 YouTube 链接的邮件，做成一个画廊。用户有几万人，被几家科技媒体报道，一分钱没赚，因为没有付费按钮。但他第一次确认了一件事：自己做的东西，真的有人用。
我当时想的是统计学：我需要做很多东西，其中一个大概率会成。所以我必须有很多东西可以试。（Pieter Levels）
技术栈不是信仰，是「我没时间换」
Pieter 所有产品都用 vanilla HTML、jQuery、PHP、SQLite。这在 2024 年的开发者社群里几乎是一种挑衅。
他说这是意外。他最早做网站学到的就是这些，等产品开始增长，他忙到没时间学新东西。他的待办清单上一直写着「学 Node.js」，十几年过去了，还在那儿。
他后来形成了一个更明确的观点：现代前端框架背后有巨大的商业动机。框架公司融几千万到几亿美元，需要让 18 岁、20 岁的新开发者用它，再引导他们用一个付费的托管平台，而那些平台的成本是普通 VPS 的 1000 倍。所以他们会付钱给 YouTuber、开发者网红做推广，让他们做演示产品。他每次发自己的产品，总有人问用什么技术栈，他说 PHP 和 jQuery，然后就有人攻击他「为什么不用新技术」。
我对钱这件事非常警惕，就像游说一样。开发者框架这个圈子里有大量资金流向广告和网红，这些钱不可能都花在开发者身上。一个开源框架根本不需要那么多开发者，它的目的是让这些创业公司赚更多的钱。（Pieter Levels）
他承认新技术在有些地方确实更好，但他想要的是数据：一个开发者、五个人、十个人、二十个人的团队，在交付功能的速度、bug 数量、安全漏洞上，到底差多少？没有人测这个。他反问那些「框架军团」：你这周用这个框架做出了什么？赚到钱了吗？有真实用户付费吗？
Photo AI 的诞生：从「房子」到「人脸」
Stable Diffusion 刚开源的时候，Pieter 在自己 MacBook 上跑起来，开始玩。他发现这个模型画人非常烂，但画建筑很好。于是他做了 thishousedoesnotexist.org，用 Stable Diffusion 生成不存在的房子，带描述，可以投票，有排行榜。这个站火过一阵，然后大家腻了，包括他自己。
接着他转向室内设计，做了 Interior AI。上传一张自己家的照片，让 AI 改成极简风、复古风、包豪斯风。这个产品第一周就做到每月 1 万到 2 万美元，两年后的现在依然维持在每月 4 万到 5 万美元。
然后他好奇：能不能训一个专门画室内设计的微调模型？他把漂亮室内图收集成画廊，训练出一个新模型，效果很好。顺手他也上传了自己的照片，想试试看能不能训出一个「自己」。
结果成功了。模型理解了他作为一个「概念」长什么样：眼睛间距、脸型、发型，全部能识别，然后可以生成他穿中世纪盔甲、当芭比娃娃、骑马的图。他把这个做成 avatarai.me，上线一周收入 15 万美元，是他当时赚过最多的一笔钱。
我上传自己的照片只是玩玩，本来以为肯定不会成功。但它真的学会了我的脸，理解了我这个「概念」。（Pieter Levels）
紧接着 Lensa 出现了。那是一家做修图 App 的公司，技术能力和 iOS 工程能力远超他。他们快速上线了同样的功能，直接给所有存量用户推 push，那一波赚了大约 3000 万美元，冲到 App Store 收入榜第一名。
Pieter 说他完全没有被打击到的感觉，反而觉得「太厉害了」。但他很快意识到，这不是他想做的事。Avatar AI 的调性太俗了：你变成芭比娃娃、变成毕加索的画、变成中世纪骑士。这是有趣的一次性消费，解决不了真正的问题。
真正的难点在写实。写实照片的每个细节都必须对，AI 只要有一点偏差，人脸就会「不像你」，看起来很怪。但如果你把风格改成「毕加索」，所有 AI 的瑕疵都变成了艺术。所以 Avatar AI 好做，Photo AI 难做。他选了难的那条路。
零代码上线：Stripe 支付链接 + Typeform + 手动发邮件
决定做之后，他没写代码。他只是注册了一个域名，放了一个 HTML 页面，贴了一个 Stripe 付款链接。用户付完钱之后，看到一个 Typeform 链接，上传照片。然后他收到邮件通知，手动下载用户上传的图片，手动训练模型，手动生成，用个人邮箱把图发回去。
「做不能规模化的事」，Paul Graham 说的。我就这么干。前几百个客户全是我一个人手动处理的。（Pieter Levels）
这个阶段持续了很短的时间，订单量就高到他必须写代码了。这段经历留下了两个东西：他验证了需求确实存在（用户是拿着信用卡付钱来的，不是点个赞），他非常清楚产品流程里哪些环节是必须的，哪些环节最省事。
他说很多创业者一开始就设计登录系统、用户管理、后台仪表盘，其实大部分可以砍掉。他自己的产品早期甚至没有传统登录，用户 Stripe 付款后收到一个带 hash 的静态链接，点进去就能用。不安全，会泄漏，但能跑。真正的 Google 登录是两年后才加的。
与 Replicate 的一段「共同成长」
Photo AI 依赖第三方平台来训练和推理。早期他用的那家平台看到他赚钱，直接把训练价格从 3 美元涨到 20 美元。他卖一单 30 美元，涨价之后利润几乎没了。他去 Slack 里跟对方谈，对方说「也许以后会降回来，我们在看」。
他开始找替代方案。Replicate 当时还是一家不太出名的公司，他给 CEO Ben Firshman 发私信，请求他们支持 DreamBooth 这种微调方式。Ben 一开始拒绝，说这个跑一次要半小时，他们没有那么多 GPU。Pieter 一直磨，一周后 Replicate 上线了这个功能。
后面的故事变成了行业史：全世界突然涌现出一堆做 avatar 生成的应用，大家全都在用 Replicate 跑 DreamBooth。Replicate 从一家小众 ML 平台变成 AI 创业圈的基础设施，页面也从一个只有工程师看得懂的界面，变成了「点一下就能跑模型」的工具。
他们从来没对我涨价，从来没对我不好，一直都很友善。这是一家很酷的公司。（Pieter Levels）
Pieter 现在已经在 Replicate 上训练了超过 36000 个用户模型。
AI 训练的真相：一半是技术，一半是理解人
Photo AI 训练出的照片，一开始他自己觉得「不像我」，然后去查原因。他撞上一个反直觉的事实：大多数人并不知道自己长什么样。用户会说「这不像我」，但你去看训练集，那些照片确实是他本人。
人对自己的脸有一种认知失调。你不知道自己长什么样，所以你应该让别人帮你挑照片，而不是自己挑。（Pieter Levels）
他自己有个例子。做 YouTube 时期，他放了一张 DJ 照片，评论区最热的一条说他像锤头鲨，因为眼睛间距太宽。他从那之后才意识到自己眼睛长得是这样。这件事后来变成了理解：让你觉得丑的那些特征，恰恰是让你独特、让别人觉得你有意思的地方。他管这个叫「自信」，而自信本身有吸引力。
工程上有大量具体技巧。比如训练集里所有照片都穿绿衬衫，模型会以为「绿衬衫」是要学的概念。所以上传的照片必须在衣着、光线、场景、姿势上有足够的多样性，只让「脸」这一个变量保持恒定。再比如用户经常上传全身照，他从早期只裁剪脸部，改成把全身照和脸部裁剪混合训练，这样模型能保留体型特征。
模型里没有说明书。两年前我们全都是瞎试。这是 AI 最令人沮丧也最有趣的地方：它是一个黑盒。（Pieter Levels）
用用户做 A/B 测试：把产品变成实验室
Photo AI 每月生成上百万张图。他做了一个决定：对 10% 的用户随机使用不同的参数组合（步数、采样器、调度器），然后看用户是收藏还是下载这些图。用统计显著性判断哪一组参数真的更好，如果显著，就推到所有用户。
这算是突破点之一：让用户帮产品变得更好。我在注册页就告诉用户，我们会用你的照片做随机参数测试。（Pieter Levels）
他还有一个观察，关于模型版本：Stable Diffusion 出了 2.0、XL，但社区里绝大多数人还在用 1.5。新版本加了安全限制，效果反而下降。Stability AI 这家公司拿了数亿美元融资，却没赚到什么钱，CEO 也离开了，最后真正受益的是像他这样用小模型做产品的独立开发者。
Hood Maps：一个永远赚不到钱但必须存在的产品
Hood Maps 的起点非常具体。Pieter 在阿姆斯特丹长大，他知道市中心全是游客，真正有意思的地方在 Jordaan 或者 De Pijp。他旅行时总想提前知道「一个城市里哪些区域是游客区、哪些是富人区、哪些是文艺青年区」。于是他做了一个在 Google Maps 上面覆盖颜色的工具，红的是游客区，绿的是富人区，黄的是嬉皮区，灰的是住宅区。
技术上他用了 HTML5 canvas：在 Google Maps 的 iframe 上盖一层 div，透明度 50%，让用户用「画笔」涂色。涂完之后把像素数据发给服务器存起来。然后一个 cron 每天跑一遍，对每个小区域的像素做「多数投票」，得出最终颜色。
这个产品遇到的所有问题都很具体。用户乱涂，画各种冒犯性的图案。他算过，不是每个人都会画那个，也不会画在同一个地方，所以多数投票天然过滤了噪音。GPS 坐标的小数位太多，同一个街区被拆成无数个点，他把小数截掉，把数据归一化到网格。有人会添加文字标签，结果变成了 meme 生产机。奥斯汀的地图上出现了「Drunk frat boys」「AirBroNBros」「Hipster Girls who do Cocaine」「Saw a guy in a fish costume get beat up here」。
这些内容我根本编不出来，因为我不了解奥斯汀，我不知道这里的亚文化和 meme。（Pieter Levels）
Hood Maps 上过 Reddit 首页，服务器差点挂掉。它从来没赚过一分钱。地图 API 极其昂贵，他先是超了 Google Maps 的免费额度，换到 Mapbox，去年又收到一张 2 万美元的账单。他现在用开源地图服务。他试过广告、赞助，都失败。地图类产品 90% 的界面就是地图，根本没地方放广告；如果收费，用户会跑光，众包数据就没了，产品也就不准了。
有些产品就是很酷，酷到它应该存在。我想让 Hood Maps 存在于这个世界上。（Pieter Levels）
Nomad List：从一张公开的 Google 表格长成一个社区
Nomad List 的起点，是他在清迈遇到的问题：哪里有快的网？房租多少钱？安全吗？当时的互联网在很多地方只有 0.5 Mbps，连 YouTube 都看不了。他没钱，一个月只有 500 美元，需要找房租 200 美元的城市。
他先建了一个公开的 Google 表格，谁都能编辑。网站是后来的事。他把它发到 Twitter，那时候只有几千粉丝，表格还是病毒式传播了，几百个城市的数据被来自世界各地的人填进去。
先把东西做出来，用你会的技术。不会写代码就用表格，表格也不会就用 Wix、Squarespace。你不需要会编程才能创业。（Pieter Levels）
后来越来越大，问题也来了。印度用户会给自己国家所有指标打最高分，不是一个人，是一群人。他意识到纯众包的数据会失真。于是他把大部分指标换成世界银行、联合国等公开数据集（这些数据免费可用，通常是国家级而非城市级），保留了最独特的部分：用户在自己的资料里填写自己去过哪些城市、现在在哪，这部分数据用来判断哪些城市正在变热。
现在 Nomad List 大约有 3 万到 4 万名付费会员。首页能看到奥斯汀现在有 1800 个远程工作者，8 个会员已签到，还有一批「即将到达」。每个月社区自发组织约 30 场线下聚会，Pieter 本人不参与组织。这个流程是自动化的：有人在网站上发起聚会，设定时间地点，系统会检查那个时间点有多少会员在这个城市，聚会结束后自动在 Nomad List 的账号上发推，同时给城市里的每个会员发私信。
在我看来这是很明显的：为什么要雇一个人来组织这件事？让代码做更合理。（Pieter Levels）
Remote OK：一个被美联储放水吹起来又落下的生意
Remote OK 是远程职位板。它起源于 Nomad List 上的一个页面，很多公司来发招聘，愿意付费，于是被拆分成独立产品。现在它是全球排名第一或第二的远程职位板，完全自动化，用户发职位、求职者投递，还有一个类似 LinkedIn 的远程工作者档案库。
他讲了一个非常具体的经济周期故事：2021 年美联储大放水，招聘预算爆炸，他给 Remote OK 加了一堆「加钱项」：彩虹色职位帖、自定义背景图、置顶、加急，一个职位帖能卖到 3000 到 4000 美元，单月收入冲到 14 万美元。然后美联储收水，一个月掉到 1 万美元。现在回升到 4 万左右。
那段时间真的是好日子。（Pieter Levels）
自动化：一个人的公司怎么撑起 40 个产品
Pieter 的自动化哲学很朴素：凡是重复的事，都交给 cron。他登进服务器，改 crontab，写一行每小时执行某个 PHP 脚本，结束。所有网站都这么跑。
他做得更细的是「健康检查」。他给自己做了 healthcheck.php 页面，用 emoji 显示各种状态：阿姆斯特丹的网速是多少兆，如果是正常数字就是绿勾；过去 24 小时有没有人注册，如果有人注册就是绿勾，没有就是红叉。然后用 UptimeRobot 每分钟访问这个页面，检测是否有红叉，一旦发现，通过 Telegram 给他发消息。
出问题一分钟之内我就知道，然后打开笔记本修。（Pieter Levels）
他还有一条更细的流程：所有网站上的 JavaScript 错误、PHP 错误，都会通过 API 发到他的 Telegram。一开始他被海量报错淹没，几个月后错误趋近于零，因为每个错误都被他一个个修掉了。
最近他给内容审核也上了 AI。Nomad List 上的城市评论是匿名的，有人会写几千字的长文。他把每条评论丢给 GPT-4o，问「这条评论质量好吗？有冒犯性吗？有种族歧视吗？」如果判定不合格，直接在 Telegram 通知他，他再人工复核。他说 GPT-4o 判断得惊人地准，能理解双关语，能分辨「这是玩笑，没有冒犯性」。他还有一个一万人的聊天社区，过去雇人类管理员，结果用户会和人类管理员吵架，说「这个管理员有偏见」。换成 GPT-4o 之后，反而没人吵了。
以前我用 if 语句判断，现在我把内容放进 GPT-4o 的 API，它返回「好」或「不好」。这是最近才发生的变化，主观判断也可以自动化了。（Pieter Levels）
直接部署到生产环境
Pieter 有一个在工程圈里很出名的「坏习惯」：没有 staging 环境，没有测试服，改完直接推生产。
他的流程是：在 VS Code 里改，命令一敲提交到 GitHub，GitHub webhook 通知服务器，服务器拉取代码，部署，1 到 2 秒后线上就是新版本。他在过去 12 个月有 3.7 万次 commit。
我知道这在任何大公司都是白痴行为。但对我来说它极其有效，因为我变得非常快。有人在 Twitter 上报 bug，我按下秒表，看多快能修好，通常两分钟。（Pieter Levels）
他说这个习惯的副作用是：你会变得非常擅长「不把服务器搞崩」。你必须更小心地写代码，长期训练下来，犯错的概率会下降。他承认这是极端的一面，中间一定有个更安全但不那么慢的地带，他自己选了这个极端。
为什么飞机和酒店的网站永远那么烂
播客里有一段特别精彩的讨论：为什么航空公司网站、酒店预订网站永远难用？
Pieter 的解释是：用户没有选择。你要飞这条航线，只有卡塔尔航空，你必须忍受这个流程。所以网站没有动力优化。真正被优化的是「让你多付钱」的部分：Booking.com 有专门团队负责网页上 10×10 像素的区域，跑 A/B 测试，测试「只剩一间房，红色字体，立即预订」这种文案的效果。他们因为这类设计被欧盟罚过款。这家公司是全世界收入最高的酒店预订网站。
这家网站变成了一个怪物，但它是全球第一。这说明用户体验不是决定性因素，赚钱才是。（Pieter Levels）
Lex 给出的解释更偏组织：真正优秀的工程师进不去，或者进去了没法做事。大公司里官僚层级太多，上层不是技术出身，不尊重工程师的判断，好工程师留不住，剩下的工程师没动力优化任何东西。
Pieter 补充了另一个角度：这是循环。Booking 1997 年创业时是颠覆者，做大之后变成了自己曾经颠覆的那种「老东西」。Uber 现在在很多地方体验反而不如传统出租车。每一代颠覆者最后都会变成被颠覆的对象。
他怎么看欧洲和美国
Pieter 长期住在欧洲（阿姆斯特丹），但他对欧洲的创业环境评价很低。他做过一个数据研究：欧洲市值最高的公司里，80% 成立于 1950 年之前；美国只有 36%。美国头部公司的中位成立年份是 1963 年，欧洲是 1913 年，差了 50 年。
欧洲的经济版图是被一群恐龙把持的。（Pieter Levels）
他的解释是监管俘获（regulatory capture）：监管越复杂，大公司越有利，因为它们有能力应付合规成本，创业公司没有。他说现在在欧洲做一个 AI 创业公司，需要公证人、认证、许可证；在美国，打开笔记本就能开始。他还提到一个很有画面感的观察：欧洲很多咖啡馆现在禁止使用笔记本电脑，理由是「我们不是来工作的，我们是来享受生活的」。他同意这个审美，但他觉得这背后是一种更深的、反创业的文化氛围。他为此做了个「EUAC」（European Effective Accelerationism，欧洲有效加速主义）的周边，还有一顶「Make Europe Great Again」的帽子（红色太像 Trump，改成了欧洲蓝）。
他怎么看 AI 怎么学
播客里有一段关于「怎么学新东西」的对话，Pieter 的观点很反主流：别先读书，别先看教程，直接开始做。
你什么都不知道，就开始做。想知道怎么做网站，就问 ChatGPT「怎么做网站，从哪开始」。它给你代码，复制，存成文件，用浏览器打开，你就有网站了，然后开始改。（Pieter Levels）
他 2016 年做过一次「30 天学 3D」的自我挑战，因为他觉得 VR 会火，而他对 3D 一无所知。他装了 Unity 和 Blender，从零开始，全程直播，全程记录。他把这个过程发在 YouTube 上，Lex 说这是他看过最诚实、最能说明「不会做一件事是什么感觉」的记录。
他学新东西的原则是：只看下一个问题。别看整座山有多高，只看下一步要爬的那块石头。做完这块，再看下一块。到了最后，你会发现一个完整的 App 已经在那了。
大多数人看得太远。你只需要看下一个挑战，下一步，然后看你会走到哪。（Pieter Levels）
他的工作方式
Pieter 的日常：凌晨 2 点睡（女朋友 12 点睡，折中到 2 点），早上 10 点起，洗澡，做 V60 手冲，20 克粉，朋友管这叫「核咖啡」。喝咖啡，开电脑，看有没有 bug，开始写代码。
他最喜欢的工位是酒店房间里的沙发。不用桌子，笔记本放腿上，双腿并拢，垫个枕头，用触控板。他曾经有过三块屏幕、升降桌、完美的人体工学配置，结果在清迈的一个共享办公空间里，凌晨 6 点醒来，脖子
他曾经有过三块屏幕、升降桌、完美的人体工学配置，结果在清迈的一个共享办公空间里，凌晨 6 点醒来，脖子一歪就动不了了。他以为自己要死了，脑子里冒出的念头是「我不想死在一间共享办公空间里」。他关掉笔记本，背上包，骑摩托回家，躺下把腿抬高。后来他开始健身，做过头推举、卧推、深蹲、硬拉，姿势、核心、背部力量全部改善，RSI（重复性劳损）消失了，刺痛消失了。从那以后他回到沙发上，一用就是这么多年。
我对「更多」这件事非常警惕。你真的需要那么多东西吗？它可能反而让我变慢。（Pieter Levels）
他说自己见过很多朋友有非常漂亮的「战斗工位」：机械键盘、双塔主机、氛围灯、升降桌，一套下来几万块。然后那些人并不比他高产。他引用《人月神话》里的逻辑：给一个延期的软件项目加人，只会让它更延期。他觉得这个隐喻可以对工具成立。多一块屏幕，多一个要维护的东西，多一个要分心的理由。
「完美高产日」是什么样的？女朋友去巴黎，他一个人在家待一周。早上 1 点、2 点才起（因为前一晚写到早上 6 点），洗澡，还是咖啡，然后一直写。朋友 Andre 会过来，两个人坐在沙发上各写各的，屋里放着柏林 techno（有个 YouTube 频道叫 HOR，在白色瓷砖的厕所里拍），基本不说话，偶尔问一句。一天四杯「核咖啡」，卡在焦虑边缘但不越过去，那种状态可以进入非常深的专注。
他说这种状态只适合做新东西，不适合维护。维护产品的时候，他需要的是能被打断也能迅速切回来的能力。这个能力是跟女朋友一起生活训练出来的，也跟很多有孩子的开发者一样：你只有 20 分钟，你就必须在 20 分钟里进入状态。
我觉得女朋友应该让她们的男朋友每年至少走开两周，就一个人待着，做点东西。别打扰他。（Pieter Levels）
关于自由、孤独和「土星回归」
播客里有一段很动人的对话，关于数字游民生活的另一面。
自由就是没有约束。什么都有可能，你可以去任何地方。所有人都说「那一定很爽」，但恰恰相反。我不觉得那让你快乐，我觉得约束才让你快乐。（Pieter Levels）
他引用卡夫卡：「我自由，因此我迷失。」他说自己在东南亚的第一年，每天早上醒来会有半分钟不知道自己在哪里，得看窗外才知道是哪个国家。这个感觉很浪漫，很像 Anthony Bourdain，但也很焦虑。
他还说了一件很少被公开谈的事：数字游民群体里的自杀率，他直觉上觉得偏高，尤其是在这个生活方式刚刚兴起的那几年。原因很具体：你在一个陌生文化里，你长得和所有人不一样，你没有家，你从一个城市跳到另一个城市，你和自己的文化脱节，也和你所在的文化脱节，因为你待得太短。你会遇到其他数字游民，但那些人很多在做灰色的生意（往美国寄非法药物、卖非 FDA 批准的减肥药），你也不一定想跟他们混。
他后来做了 Nomad List，某种程度上是为了解决自己的孤独。他建了一个 3 万人的社区，开始组织线下聚会，开始交朋友，然后不孤独了。
播客里有一段我觉得很美。他说他最快乐的记忆，是在巴厘岛的共享办公空间写到天亮。他下午 5 点、6 点起床，骑摩托去共享办公空间，路上在一家咖啡馆买 30 杯热拿铁，装塑料袋里，一路洒。他和 Andre 还有另外几个朋友在里面写代码，放工业 techno，一直写到太阳出来。6 点，练完瑜伽的人进来，说「早上好」，他们那副样子非常糟糕，自己却不知道。然后回家，睡觉，第二天重复。他说那是一种「锁定模式」，非常快乐。
「100 件物品」和卖掉那台相机
2012 年，Pieter 做了一次「100 Things Challenge」：把自己拥有的所有东西列成表格，数一数，然后减到 100 件以内。他把所有东西挂到 eBay 上卖。
他说在 eBay 上卖东西是认识社会最好的方式。你会遇到从富到穷所有阶层的人，跑到你家门口来买东西。你在阿姆斯特丹住了那么久，你以为你了解荷兰人，卖一次东西你就知道你根本不了解。
最难受的一件是那台 Canon 5D。他和朋友一起买来拍音乐 MV，很贵，6000 欧元左右。卖掉它意味着：他们不会再拍 MV 了，他要离开荷兰，这段一起做的事到此为止。他说那只是一个相机，但那一刻像在跟朋友说「对不起，这条路走不通，我得走了」。
那就像把你的人生切了一刀：这些事到此为止，现在开始做新的事。（Pieter Levels）
最后剩下的东西：一个背包、一台 MacBook、牙刷、几件衣服、内裤、袜子。在亚洲不需要很多衣服，T 恤、泳裤、人字拖，去自助洗衣店洗。总共大概 50 件。
他还讲了一个细节：那次大清理的触发点，是 2012 年做了一次 MDMA。那之后他感觉整个人变了，有一种强烈的冲动要扔掉所有东西，要离开，要上路。他说听起来很玄，但那次体验确实把他推向了一条路。
Lex 说他这辈子干过两次，把所有东西送掉，只剩内裤、裤子、一个背包。他说这很重要，它会告诉你什么是重要的。Pieter 补充了一层更冷静的观察：极简生活的代价是你更多地依赖别人的服务。你不需要车，你叫 Uber；你不需要厨房，你下馆子。你把这些东西从「所有物」变成了「支出」。自由是真的，账单也是真的。
他不回私信，以及为什么
Pieter 写过一篇博客，叫《Why I'm unreachable and maybe you should be too》。他说每天收到大量私信，有人写几千字的人生故事来问他建议。他没办法回，因为他不是心理医生，他不知道。
他讲了一个对比：他最好的朋友 Andre，是在共享办公空间里走过来跟他说「我想学编程，想做创业，怎么开始」。Pieter 说「好，装 Nginx，开始写」。Andre 就开始写，遇到问题问一下，不纠缠，继续写。现在 Andre 有自己的公司，赚很多钱。
另一种人：你给他建议，他开始跟你辩论，说「不对，你说错了，因为……」。Pieter 说，你问我建议，然后跟我辩论？这种人一般做不成。
我觉得给这些人回私信是一种拖延。你想做播客？直接开始做就行了。我不会去问别人「怎么做成功的播客」，我会直接做，然后模仿他们的方法。（Pieter Levels）
Lex 的补充更温和：这些人其实在「寻找」，他们在向世界提问「我该怎么活」。答案最终只能来自他们自己。模仿是必要的，但你得从模仿里走出来，找到自己的声音。他说自己一开始做播客，也是照着别人的样子摆黑色背景、调灯光，做完才发现那些根本不是关键，关键是内容和你自己的判断。
关于 4chan 和「一点毒」
Hood Maps 火起来之后，4chan 的人发现了它，跑进来在奥斯汀、洛杉矶的地图上乱涂，画各种冒犯性的图案，还往标签区里塞脏话。Pieter 的处理方式很有意思：他列了一个脏词表，一旦检测到，就把用户重定向到一个 YouTube 视频，内容是非常放松的 ASMR，发光的果冻在流，或者奶酪在吐司上慢慢融化。
他们就像渗透测试员，免费帮你测你的应用，然后你加点东西就行。（Pieter Levels）
他对 4chan 的评价比大多数人宽容。他说 2010 年前后的 4chan 有一种「反系统」的精神，表面那层极端冒犯的内容其实是一道过滤器，用来把普通人挡在外面，你忍过去了往下翻，会看到很深的讨论。Rick Roll 这个 meme 就是从 4chan 的帖子 ID 赌博文化里长出来的，人们赌某个帖子 ID 是不是双数。
他也承认后来变了。那股味道开始漂移，开始出现校园枪击之类的东西，就不只是恶作剧了。他用一个比喻：一个小镇里有一点毒是好的，但毒太多，小镇就毁了。Lex 说这很像 Tom Waits 那句话的味道。
他的技术洁癖是反过来的
大多数工程师的洁癖是「必须用正确的方式做」：必须测试、必须有 staging、必须用最新框架、必须类型安全。Pieter 的洁癖方向相反：他对自己写的东西必须完全理解，哪怕它很土。
他在播客里说，自己在 jQuery 里写着写着会「重新发明」React。因为他用久了就会遇到跟别人一样的问题，然后自己想办法解决，最后做出来的东西跟别人的框架思路一样，只是更土、更小、他完全看得懂。他管这个叫「我自己的框架」。
这也是他拒绝学 React 的真实原因。他说自己心里清楚：「没时间」永远是假话，真相是「你没把它排在优先级上」。他现在的优先级是产品运营和 AI，学前端框架的边际收益太低。他甚至说，学 AI 比学前端框架对他更有价值，因为 AI 的影响更大。
他留了一条口子：也许该学一点 Next，该学一点 Laravel，该用 Tailwind。他的态度是可以学概念，不一定要把整个技术栈迁过去。知道别人为什么这么设计，比真的用它更重要。
播客里 Lex 提出了一个很具体的学习方案：做同一个页面，只有一个动态元素（比如调用一次 API），用五种不同的技术栈各实现一遍，计时，顺便记录自己的心情。他说没有人系统测过「开发者幸福感」，也没有人测过「交付时间」。Pieter 说这个项目很好，因为你能看到差异。
关于「工具不重要」这件事的边界
他被问到用什么 IDE，答案是 VS Code，因为被 Twitter 上的人「霸凌」了。以前用 Sublime Text，因为可以在一个文件里做多光标批量替换，处理世界银行的数据集时非常好用。换到 VS Code 之后就用下来了，但他觉得这件事一点都不重要。
我对「工具很重要」这种说法非常怀疑。什么工具你用得很熟，你就能很快。就这么简单。（Pieter Levels）
这个观点有它的边界。他讲了一个非常诚实的例子：Photo AI 需要一个 Python 工程师。他不会 Python，而 AI 生态是 Python 的，他得请人。他请了 Philip，做了 10 个月，把模型跑起来、接上 Replicate、优化产品。他自己试过 Python，NumPy、包管理器、环境，搞不定，也没时间去搞定。
他自己划的线很清楚：在你能掌控的范围内，工具不重要；在你掌控不了的领域，你得承认，然后花钱或者花人情去补。
他那次「只合作了一周」的经历
Lex 问，你有没有让别的开发者进来看你的 PHP + jQuery 代码？Pieter 说有，一周。
那个人进来第一句话是：这是 jQuery，我们不能这样，得全部重写成 Vue.js。Pieter 说，能不能就留着 jQuery？对方说不行。Pieter 想，好吧，我们是该清理一下这个屎山了。结果进度慢得离谱，那人就走了。
Lex 在这里给了一段很有价值的回应。他说自己跟人合作的方式是：在心里假设对方是地球上最聪明的人。先去看他的代码、他的产品，努力看出其中的天才之处。你真的理解了，再开始对话，讨论「有没有更好的做法」。
这就是代码共情。你需要通读代码，获得一个整体视角，然后你当然可以建议改东西。但你看，jQuery 是有点疯，我居然在用 jQuery，我们可以改。前提是你先懂我为什么这么写。（Pieter Levels）
Pieter 同意，但补了一句更冷的话：能做到这件事的人，是那种「技术不可知论者」，什么栈都能学，这种人非常少，可能只有前 5%。他说大部分人在自己的岗位上都很普通，不只是开发者，医生也一样。
这句话听起来刺耳，但它解释了他为什么选择一个人干。找到一个既能读懂他的代码、又能忍住不重写、还能真的把东西做出来的人，成本太高，高到他宁愿自己写。他也承认这是自己的问题：「我应该多招些人试试，但这件事会消耗我大量精力和时间。」
关于退出：他一个公司都没卖过
播客里聊到「退出」（exit）这个阶段，Pieter 的第一反应是：「你别问我，我一个公司都没卖过。」
他解释过为什么。前面说过财务逻辑：他的公司利润率 90%，收购估值通常是 3 到 5 倍，卖掉等于用三年收入换一家不再属于自己的公司。除非出价到 6 倍以上，否则不如继续持有。
还有一层跟钱无关的原因。他说 Nomad List 是他的「孩子」，是他第一个真正做起来的产品。它有一个使命：人应该可以在任何地方工作、旅行、接触不同的文化。他觉得这是让世界变好的一种方式。你去了中国、住在中国，你会发现那里的人很友善，你听到的很多关于中国的说法有真的部分，但你也会发现很多事情和你以为的不一样。旅行能教人很多东西。所以这个产品，他不想卖。
AI 产品我感情上没那么深，比如 Photo AI，那个我可以卖。（Pieter Levels）
他还提到一个很少被讨论的现象：创始人卖掉公司之后的抑郁。他说很多人卖掉公司之后会问「我是谁」，然后立刻开始做下一个，永远停不下来。
我觉得人应该一直工作到死。就一直做很酷的东西，不应该退休。我觉得退休大概是不好的。（Pieter Levels）
那些「不做」的决定
整场访谈里，Pieter 反复在讲同一件事：他做的每一个决定，都在减少东西。
不融资，减少了对投资人的责任。不招人，减少了管理成本。不用现代框架，减少了维护成本。不用多屏，减少了对工位的依赖。不回私信，减少了社交负担。卖掉所有东西，减少了对一个固定居所的依赖。没有 staging，减少了部署流程。
我怀疑「更多」。你真的需要那么多东西吗？它可能反而让我变慢。（Pieter Levels）
他甚至把这个逻辑推到了快乐上。他引用享乐适应（hedonic adaptation）的研究：大多数人买了新车，六个月之后就习惯了，感觉和之前一样；买了新房，六个月之后也一样。他自己说，物质给他的快乐只能维持两周。所以他干脆跳过「得到」这个过程，直接去看那些更持久的东西：身边的人、好吃的食物、有意思的经历、有意义的工作、运动。
这套逻辑不适用于所有人。Lex 在播客里说得很清楚：有些人真的从物质中获得快乐，那也很好，人是不一样的。Pieter 点头同意。他只是陈述自己的版本，没有推广成教条。
咖啡馆、第三空间和被忽略的一门经济学
播客里有一段很喜欢的发散，关于「咖啡馆为什么重要」。
Pieter 发过一条推，说英伟达这家 3 万亿美元的公司，是在 Denny's（美国一家连锁餐厅）的一张桌子上创立的。他由此想：人需要「第三空间」，没有家，没有办公室，是一个可以带着笔记本坐下来、旁边有陌生人的地方。
四百年前，欧洲的科学革命和启蒙运动就发生在咖啡馆里。人们坐在那儿喝咖啡、写作、辩论、规划航海路线。在法国、奥地利、英国、荷兰，都是这样。（Pieter Levels）
他说他来到美国的第一件事就注意到：咖啡馆里全是笔记本，每个人都在做点什么。而在欧洲很多地方，咖啡馆已经禁止使用笔记本电脑了。他理解这个审美：「我们不是来工作的，我们是来享受生活的。」Anthony Bourdain 有一张照片，在法国的咖啡馆里，抽着烟，喝着咖啡，有人说「这才是咖啡馆该有的样子」，Pieter 说他同意。
他觉得这背后有一个代价。他在推上写过：欧洲市值最高的公司里，80% 成立于 1950 年之前，美国只有 36%。一个社会如果不再允许人在咖啡馆里做白日梦、写代码、跟陌生人聊出下一家公司，那它就慢慢不再生产新公司了。
欧洲现在有一种很强的反创业氛围。你听到「startup bro」这个词，就带着嘲笑的意味。但那背后是有人在真的做东西，这会为你的国家创造就业。（Pieter Levels）
他怎么评估一个想法
回到他书里那套流程：想法、构建、上线、增长、变现、自动化、退出。他说想法这一步，方法很土。
第一，你得能「看见问题」。你每天早上起来，注意那些让你烦的东西。什么东西不好用，什么东西让你多花时间，什么东西本该更好但没有。列一个清单，每个问题对应一个可能的解法，然后看哪个是你真的能做的。
第二，旅行能扩大你能看见的问题。因为你会看到别的国家已经有的东西，你的国家还没有。他在东南亚看到「超级 App」：一个 App 里可以点外卖、买杂货、叫按摩、叫修车，什么都有。这些回到欧洲、美国就是机会。他管这叫「套利」（arbitrage）。
第三，如果是技术驱动，那要小心。他说自己玩 Stable Diffusion 的时候，起点是「这个技术能干什么」。这是典型的「拿着锤子找钉子」，大多数情况会失败。但有时候你会撞上一个真的需求。Photo AI 就是这么撞出来的，先是玩，玩到发现「这个模型画室内设计画得特别好」，才变成产品。
「这不会成功」的直觉大多是对的。但有时候你就是得先玩，玩到那个东西自己浮现出来。（Pieter Levels）
他还讲了一个很有洞察的观察：第一直觉往往是好想法。因为那个想法其实已经在你的潜意识里煮了很久。他写过一条推：你的大脑里有一锅汤，想法在里面煮，煮好了它会「叮」一声出来。八个小时的刻意思考比不过一个持续运行了几周、几个月的后台任务。
有时候它会冒出来，我就把它塞回厨房，再煮一会儿。（Pieter Levels）
有时候塞回去是因为你没准备好，有时候是因为世界还没准备好。他提到很多创业者是「太早」，产品做出来了，但市场还没有那个需求，公司就死了。机器人行业就是这样：波士顿动力的视频每次都惊艳，但普通家庭现在真的需要一只机器狗吗？Apple Vision Pro 很酷，但它解决了什么真实问题？这些是技术先于需求，总有一天会成立，现在还没到。
关于定价，他有一条很硬的规则
Pieter 反对「先免费获客」。他说免费用户几乎不会转化，AI 产品尤其如此。免费用户会大量涌入，然后滥用你的应用，各种攻击、各种爬。
免费用户，抱歉，但真的很糟。你会得到从世界各地涌来的几百万人，他们只是来滥用你的应用的。（Pieter Levels）
他的建议是：从第一天就收钱。定价不要低于每月 10 美元（他对标 Netflix），如果你是一个人做产品的独立开发者，你每个用户至少要赚 30 美元以上才划算。一千个付费用户，每人 30 美元，就是每月 3 万美元，这是一笔可以支撑一个人过得很好的钱。
付费还有一个副作用：它是很好的过滤器。付钱的人是真的有需求，会给你有质量的反馈，会帮你把产品做对。
他还讲了一个很实用的技巧：讲价。可以直接给供应商发邮件说「太贵了，能不能给个折扣」，很多公司会说「可以，五折」。他说很多人以为官网上的价格就是最终价格，其实不是。
尤其现在经济不太好，你可以直接问，「我需要一个折扣，不然我可能得换一家」，大部分会同意，25%、50%。（Pieter Levels）
他补充说，他自己因为是公开的、有影响力的人，所以更好谈。即使不是，这件事也能做，只是折扣幅度小一点。Lex 在这里开玩笑说：「秘密技巧，做个好人。」Pieter 说：「这取决于他们给多少折扣，所以你应该在 Twitter 上多发点 shitpost。」
他还提到现在做产品的一个标准配置：Discord。每个 AI 应用都有一个 Discord，开发者和用户混在一起，用户提需求，开发者直接回。这已经变成了默认动作。
他讲的最反直觉的一件事
播客快结束的时候，有一段印象最深的对话，关于「变得正常」。
Pieter 说，你一开始是个不合群的人，但随着你不断处理自己的问题，你会变得越来越正常，越来越平静，越来越快乐，而这会让你变得「不那么有意思」。
那些疯狂的人永远是最有意思的。如果你把自己内心的挣扎、你的治疗都解决了，你可能就不再那么有意思了。（Pieter Levels）
Lex 的回应很温和：「你不一定要破碎才能有意思。」
这段对话接的是前面一个更沉重的话题。Pieter 说，27 岁那年，他一个人在国外，没钱，没女朋友，没有事业，朋友都在荷兰过得好好的，他看着天花板觉得自己是个失败者。Lex 问他，你能不能回到那个状态，跟现在正在房间里看着天花板、觉得自己是失败者的人说点什么。
年轻的时候觉得自己是个失败者，这是正常的。27 岁是巅峰。所以千万别自杀，熬过去就行。（Pieter Levels）
他引了 Jordan Peterson 的一个说法：人抑郁是因为「什么都没有」。没有伴侣、没有工作、没有家人、没有生活。你需要在你周围建立起一些东西。如果你一个人在亚洲的青旅里，看着天花板，没有收入，没有女朋友，那你当然会抑郁，这是逻辑。但当时身在其中的你不会这么想，你会觉得「是我这个人有问题」。
他还说了一句很冷静的话：那种状态有它自己的逻辑。你缺的东西都是具体的，所以解法也是具体的。他父亲给他的解法就是最具体的那一种：去弄一堆沙子，拿把铁锹，从这边铲到那边。
关于健身，他讲得很实在
播客里他们聊了很多健身。Pieter 最喜欢的动作是站姿过头推举，他做 60 公斤，做完站在那儿像个赢家。他还有卧推、深蹲、硬拉。播客桌上有只马克杯，写着「和我的心理医生聊天」，图是一个硬拉动作。
因为健身对我来说就像治疗。这个说法有点争议，我在 Twitter 上说这个，有人会生气。（Pieter Levels）
Lex 说他自己重看过赫尔佐格的《Happy People: A Year in the Taiga》，记录西伯利亚的猎人一年到头为了生存劳作。那种生活里有很深的幸福感，因为人整天在自然里忙着，体力上的辛劳本身就是一种治疗。
他还聊到睡眠和饮食。他不午睡，白天不觉得累，因为健身。他曾经每天吃好几顿，因为大家都说练大重量要多吃，后来发现一天吃一两顿反而更强、感觉更好。Lex 说自己也是这样，很多网上的建议只是对「平均人群」的基线，你得成为自己身体的观察者，自己试。
他的最后一个建议
播客的最后，Lex 问他，你会给年轻人什么建议，让他们也能过上你这样的生活。
Pieter 的回答没有铺垫，是整场访谈里最直接的一段。
不听任何人的。做你觉得对的事，跟着你的心走。所有人都会给你施压，父母、家人、社会都在告诉你该做什么。但你去试自己的那条路，因为它可能真的能成。（Pieter Levels）
他承认这条路一开始不会顺利。他自己也经历过很糟的时期，相对地糟。但如果聪明地走，最后你能把东西做成，能给自己造出一个小小的生活，就像他现在这样。
他还讲了一个很美的比喻：「经济和社会里是有空间让你做自己的。就像一个村子，我卖面包，你卖肉，每个人做自己那一小摊。你不需要变成一个正常人，你可以做你真正想做的那个东西。」
Lex 追问：那要全力去做吗？
Pieter：得全力。你如果只用一半力气，不可能成功。你得往「不合群」那个方向靠，往「不一样」那个方向靠，去做你真正想做的事。
Lex 重复了一遍：「Whole ass it.」
Pieter：「对，全力去做。」
他们最后还聊到大学的时机。Pieter 说，如果是现在，他可能不会一毕业就去上大学。他会先去旅行，先做点互联网上的生意，25 岁再回学校。因为 18 岁的时候你不知道自己想学什么，你只能按就业市场的需求选专业。等你有钱了，知道自己想做什么了，再回去读书，那时候你才是为自己读。Lex 提醒说，大学还有一个作用是强制性的社交，你会遇到很多人。Pieter 说旅行也能给你这个，而且给得更杂、更野。
关于这场访谈本身
这场对话的氛围很松弛。他们会岔出去聊 Flash 的兴衰、聊 Windows 时代格式化 C 盘重装系统、聊 brown noise 和工业 techno、聊 4chan 的黄金年代、聊 Mac 的 Finder 有多难用、聊三块屏幕和一台 16 寸 MacBook 哪个更高效。Pieter 会突然说「这一周我才发现，我那些生成的照片里人脸都被涂掉了」，会承认「我的产品一半的时候效果很差」，会说「我对自己产品的判断不太可信，因为是我自己做的」。
他不装。
在一个所有人都在讲如何打造个人品牌、如何构建影响力、如何做增长的时代，Pieter 的整套方法论其实是反的：不融资、不招人、不学新框架、不做增长投放、不追热点、不把自己包装成专家。他只是每天坐在沙发上，用最土的技术，做一个又一个小产品，上线，收钱，修 bug，然后做下一个。
十年过去，他做了 40 多个产品，绝大多数失败，几个成功。成功的那几个加起来，让他可以继续坐在沙发上做下一个。
Lex 在节目最后引用了 Dropbox 创始人 Drew Houston 的一句话收尾：
不要担心失败。你只需要对一次。（Drew Houston）
Pieter 已经把这句话活了一遍。他失败了几十次，对了几次。而这几次，足够撑起一种完全属于他自己的生活。
如果你读到这里想做点什么
- 今天就列一张「问题清单」。打开备忘录，写下过去一周让你烦的十件事，别管大小，从「这个网页加载太慢」到「找个靠谱的理发店好难」。写完再看哪一条你真的能动手做。这一步的价值在于训练你看见问题，方向对了，答案会自己来。
- 本周就上线一个收钱的东西。服务器、域名备案、用户系统全都可以先放一边。一个落地页加一个 Stripe 或 Lemon Squeezy 收款链接就够了。先卖，再建。如果没有人为它掏钱，你省下了三个月的开发时间。
- 把定价定在每月 30 美元以上。一个人做产品，10 美元的用户养不活你，也筛不出真正有需求的人。一千个付费用户每人 30 美元，是每月三万。先把数学算清楚，再决定要不要做。
- 给自己加一个 cron。找一个你每天重复的小动作，哪怕只是「每天检查一遍某个数据有没有异常」，把它变成一个每小时跑一次的脚本。跑通了，你就理解了 Pieter 那套自动化的一半。
- 建一个健康检查页。一个页面，几行 emoji，把「昨天有没有新用户注册」「数据库能不能连上」「核心接口返回正不正常」都放上去，然后用 UptimeRobot 每分钟访问一次。出问题一分钟内你知道，比什么监控系统都实在。
- 先把东西直接推生产环境，但只推小改动。不去搭 staging，不去写完整测试，但每次只改一件事，改完立刻看结果。你会发现大部分「必须有的流程」是在保护一个不出错的组织，帮不到你做更好的产品。
- 学一样新东西时，只看下一步。别一开始就问「React 整体架构是什么」，先问「怎么让这个按钮点击之后发一个请求」。做完这一步再问下一步。三十天后你会发现，你已经在做一个完整的东西了。
- 把「学新框架」的优先级排到「用 AI 做出下一个产品」之后。你现在的技术栈还能跑，那就先跑。等它真的卡住你了，再去学新的。那时候你带着具体的问题去学，效率会高十倍。
- 如果你正处在「看着天花板觉得自己是失败者」的阶段：先把生活里缺的具体东西列出来。缺收入、缺朋友、缺一个能说话的人、缺一件每天早上想起来有点期待的事。然后只修一件，就一件。铲沙子那种修法，是最土也最有效的。
- 找一个可以一起坐着不说话写代码的人。不用合伙，不用分工，就是各写各的。这种氛围比任何工具、任何课程都更能让你把东西做出来。
So I was trying to figure out how to do photorealistic AI photos, and it was …
所以我试图弄清楚如何制作逼真的人工智能照片，结果是……
00:00 Stable Diffusion by itself is not doing that well.
稳定扩散本身效果并不好。
The faces look all mangled, and it doesn’t have enough resolution or something to do that well.
这些面孔看起来都被毁坏了，而且它没有足够的分辨率或其他东西来做得很好。
But I started seeing these base models, these fine-tuned models, and people would train on porn, and I would try them and they would be very photorealistic.
但我开始看到这些基本模型，这些经过微调的模型，人们会接受色情训练，我会尝试它们，它们会非常逼真。
They would have bodies that actually made sense, body anatomy.
他们会有真正有意义的身体，身体解剖学。
But if you look at the photorealistic models that people use now, there’s still core of porn there, of naked people.
但如果你看看人们现在使用的真实感模型，你会发现那里仍然存在色情的核心，即裸体的人。
So I need to prompt out, and everybody needs to do this with AI startups, with imaging, you need to prompt out the naked stuff.
所以我需要提示出来，每个人都需要对人工智能初创公司这样做，对于成像，你需要提示出赤裸裸的东西。
You have to keep reminding the model, “You need to put clothes on the thing.”
你必须不断提醒模特，“你需要给这个东西穿上衣服。”
Yeah.
是的。
00:39 “Don’t put naked,” because it’s very risky.
“不要裸露”，因为这是非常危险的。
I have Google Vision that checks every photo before it’s shown to the user to check for NSFW.
我有 Google Vision，可以在向用户显示照片之前检查每张照片是否存在 NSFW。
Like a nipple detector?
比如乳头探测器？
00:45 Oh, an NSFW detector.
哦，一个 NSFW 探测器。
Because the journalist gets very angry.
因为记者非常生气。
The following is a conversation with Pieter Levels, also known on X as levelsio.
以下是与 Pieter Levels（在 X 上也称为levelsio）的对话。
00:52 He is a self-taught developer and entrepreneur who designed, programed shipped and ran over 40 startups, many of which are hugely successful.
他是一位自学成才的开发人员和企业家，设计、编程、运营并运营了 40 多家初创公司，其中许多都取得了巨大成功。
In most cases, he did it all by himself while living the digital nomad life in over 40 countries and over 150 cities, programming on a laptop while chilling on a couch, using vanilla HTML, jQuery, PHP and SQLight.
在大多数情况下，他都是自己完成这一切，同时在 40 多个国家和 150 多个城市过着数字游牧生活，一边在沙发上放松，一边在笔记本电脑上编程，使用普通的 HTML、jQuery、PHP 和 SQLight。
He builds and ships quickly, and improves on the fly, all in the open, documenting his work, both his successes and failures, with a raw honesty of a true indie hacker.
他快速构建和发布，并即时改进，所有这些都是公开的，以真正的独立黑客的原始诚实记录他的工作，包括他的成功和失败。
01:40 Pieter is an inspiration to a huge number of developers and entrepreneurs who love creating cool things in the world that are hopefully useful for people.
Pieter 激励了众多热爱在世界上创造对人们有用的酷炫事物的开发者和企业家。
This was an honor and a pleasure for me.
这对我来说是一种荣幸和快乐。
This is the Lex Fridman Podcast.
这是莱克斯·弗里德曼播客。
To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description.
为了支持它，请在说明中查看我们的赞助商。
And now, dear friends, here’s Pieter Levels.
现在，亲爱的朋友们，这是彼得·莱弗斯（Pieter Levels）。
02:03 You’ve launched a lot of companies and built a lot of products.
You’ve launched a lot of companies and built a lot of products.
As you say, most failed, but some succeeded.
正如你所说，大多数人都失败了，但也有一些人成功了。
What’s your philosophy behind building the startups that you did?
您创办初创公司的理念是什么？
I think my philosophy is very different than most people in startups, because most people in startups, they build a company and they raise money and they hire people and then they build a product and they find something that makes money.
我认为我的理念与大多数初创公司的人非常不同，因为大多数初创公司的人建立了一家公司，筹集资金，雇用人员，然后开发产品，然后找到赚钱的东西。
02:14 And I don’t really raise money.
而且我并没有真正筹集资金。
I don’t use VC funding, I do everything myself.
I don’t use VC funding, I do everything myself.
I’m a designer, I’m the developer, I make everything, I make the logo.
I’m a designer, I’m the developer, I make everything, I make the logo.
So for me, I’m much more scrappy.
所以对我来说，我更加斗志旺盛。
And because I don’t have funding, I need to go fast.
And because I don’t have funding, I need to go fast.
I need to make things fast to see if an idea works.
I need to make things fast to see if an idea works.
I have an idea in my mind and I build it like a mini startup, and I launch it very quickly, within two weeks or something, of building it.
I have an idea in my mind and I build it like a mini startup, and I launch it very quickly, within two weeks or something, of building it.
And I check if there’s demand and if people actually sign up and not just sign up, but if people actually pay money.
And I check if there’s demand and if people actually sign up and not just sign up, but if people actually pay money.
They need to take out their credit cards, pay me money, and then I can see if the idea is validated.
他们需要拿出信用卡，付给我钱，然后我就可以看看这个想法是否有效。
And most ideas don’t work, as you say, most fail.
正如你所说，大多数想法都行不通，大多数都会失败。
So there’s this rapid iterative phase where you just build a prototype that works, launch it, see if people like it, improving it really, really quickly to see if people like it a little bit more enough to pay and all that.
因此，有一个快速迭代阶段，您只需构建一个可用的原型，启动它，看看人们是否喜欢它，然后非常非常快地改进它，看看人们是否更喜欢它，足以支付费用等等。
03:05 That whole rapid process is how you think of-
整个快速过程就是你所想到的-
Yeah.
是的。
03:22 I think it’s very rapid.
我认为速度非常快。
If I compare it to, for example, Google or big tech companies, especially Google right now is struggling.
If I compare it to, for example, Google or big tech companies, especially Google right now is struggling.
They made transformers, they invented all the AI stuff years ago and they never really shipped.
They made transformers, they invented all the AI stuff years ago and they never really shipped.
They could have shipped ChatGPT for example, I heard, in 2019.
例如，我听说他们可以在 2019 年发布 ChatGPT。
And they never shipped it because they were so stuck in bureaucracy.
And they never shipped it because they were so stuck in bureaucracy.
But they had everything.
但他们拥有一切。
They had the data, they had the tech, they had the engineers and they didn’t do it.
They had the data, they had the tech, they had the engineers and they didn’t do it.
And it’s because these big organizations, it can make you very slow.
And it’s because these big organizations, it can make you very slow.
So being alone by myself on my laptop, in my underwear in a hotel room or something, I can ship very fast and I don’t need to ask legal for, “Oh, can you vouch for this?” I can just go and ship.
因此，当我独自一人使用笔记本电脑、穿着内衣在酒店房间或其他地方时，我可以非常快速地发货，而且不需要向法律部门询问“哦，你能证明这一点吗？”我可以直接去发货。
Do you always code in your underwear?
你总是在内裤里写代码吗？
04:02 Your profile picture, you’re slouching on a couch in your underwear, chilling on a laptop.
Your profile picture, you’re slouching on a couch in your underwear, chilling on a laptop.
No, but I do wear shorts a lot and I usually just wear shorts and no T-shirt, because I’m always too hot.
No, but I do wear shorts a lot and I usually just wear shorts and no T-shirt, because I’m always too hot.
04:10 I’m always overheating.
我总是过热。
Thank you for showing up not just in your underwear but wearing shorts.
感谢您不仅穿着内衣，还穿着短裤出现。
I still wearing this for you, but …
我仍然为你穿着这件衣服，但是……
Thank you.
谢谢你。
04:21 Thank you for dressing up.
谢谢你精心打扮。
I think it’s because since I go to the gym, I’m always too hot.
I think it’s because since I go to the gym, I’m always too hot.
What’s your favorite exercise in the gym?
你在健身房最喜欢的运动是什么？
Man, overhead press.
伙计，过头推举。
Overhead press, like shoulder press?
过头推举，就像肩部推举一样？
Yeah.
是的。
04:30 But it feels good because you’re doing …
但感觉很好，因为你正在做……
You win.
你赢了。
Because what is it?
因为它是什么？
I do 60 kilos, so it’s 120 pounds or something.
I do 60 kilos, so it’s 120 pounds or something.
It’s my only thing I can do well in the gym.
这是我在健身房里唯一能做好的事情。
And you stand like this and you’re like, “I did it.” Like a winner pose.
你像这样站着，你会说：“我做到了。”就像胜利者的姿势。
It’s a victory thing.
这是胜利的事情。
A victory pose.
摆出了胜利的姿势。
04:45 I do bench press, squats, dead lifts.
我做卧推、深蹲、硬拉。
Hence the mug, “Talking to my therapist,” and it’s a deadlift.
因此，这个杯子上写着“跟我的治疗师交谈”，这是一个硬拉。
Yeah.
是的。
04:53 Because it acts like therapy for me.
因为它对我来说就像一种治疗。
Yeah, yeah, it is.
是啊，是啊，确实如此。
Which is controversial to say.
这是有争议的说法。
04:55 If I say this on Twitter, people get angry.
如果我在推特上这么说，人们就会生气。
Physical hardship is a kind of therapy.
身体上的困难是一种治疗。
04:59 I just rewatched Happy People a Year in the Taiga, that Warner Herzog film where they document people that are doing trapping, they’re essentially just working for survival in the wilderness year round.
我刚刚重看了华纳·赫尔佐格的电影《针叶林一年快乐》，他们记录了人们进行诱捕的情况，他们本质上只是为了全年在荒野中生存而工作。
And there’s a deep happiness to their way of life because they’re so busy in it, in nature.
他们的生活方式充满了深深的幸福感，因为他们在大自然中如此忙碌。
There’s something about that physical toil.
体力劳动是有一定道理的。
Yeah, my dad taught me that.
是的，我爸爸教我的。
05:25 My dad always did …
我爸爸总是这样……
there was construction in the house.
房子里正在施工。
He was always renovating the house.
他总是在装修房子。
He breaks through one room and then he goes to the next room and he’s just going in a circle around the house for the last 40 years.
他冲破一个房间，然后进入下一个房间，在过去的 40 年里，他就这样绕着房子转了一圈。
But so he’s always doing construction in the house and it’s his hobby.
但他总是在房子里做建筑，这是他的爱好。
And he taught me, when I’m depressed for something, he says, “Get a big mountain of sand or something from construction, and just get a shovel and bring it to the other side and just do physical labor, do hard work, and do something, Set a goal, do something.” And I did that with startups too.
他教我，当我为某事感到沮丧时，他说，“从建筑中弄来一座大沙山或其他东西，然后拿一把铲子，把它带到另一边，然后做体力劳动，努力工作，做点什么，设定一个目标，做点什么。”我对初创公司也这样做了。
Yeah, construction is not about the destination, man.
是的，建设与目的地无关，伙计。
06:02 It’s about the journey.
这是关于旅程的。
Sometimes I wonder, people who are always remodeling their house, is it really about the remodeling or is it-
有时候我会想，那些总是在装修房子的人，到底是为了装修还是——
No, no.
不，不。
06:03 It’s not.
它不是。
Is it about the project-
是关于项目吗-
It’s a journey.
这是一次旅程。
The puzzle of it.
它的谜题。
No, he doesn’t care about the results.
不，他不在乎结果。
06:14 Well, he shows me, he’s like, “It’s amazing.” I’m like, “Yeah, it’s amazing.” But then he wants to go to the next room.
好吧，他向我展示了，他说，“这太棒了。”我想，“是的，太棒了。”但随后他想去隔壁房间。
But I think it’s very metaphorical for work, because I also …
但我认为这对于工作来说非常隐喻，因为我也……
I never stop work.
我从不停止工作。
I go to the next website or I make a new one or I make a new startup.
我会去下一个网站，或者创建一个新网站，或者创建一个新的初创公司。
So I’m always …
所以我总是……
It gives you something to wake up in the morning and have coffee and kiss your girlfriend and then you have a goal, “Today I’m going to fix this feature,” or “Today I’m going to fix this bug,” or something.
它让你早上醒来，喝杯咖啡，亲吻你的女朋友，然后你就有一个目标，“今天我要修复这个功能”，或者“今天我要修复这个错误”，或者其他什么。
“I’m going to do something.” You have something to wake up to.
“我要做点什么。”你有一些事情要醒来。
And I think maybe especially as a man, also women, but you need a hard work.
我想也许尤其是作为一个男人，也包括女人，但你需要努力工作。
You need an endeavor, I think.
我认为你需要努力。
How much of the building that you do is about money?
你建造的建筑有多少是与金钱有关的？
06:52 How much is it about just a deep internal happiness?
有多少只是内心深处的幸福？
It’s really about fun, because I was doing it when I didn’t make money.
这真的很有趣，因为我在没赚钱的时候就这么做了。
06:59 That’s the point.
这就是重点。
So I was always coding, I was making music.
所以我一直在编码，我在制作音乐。
I made electronic music, drum and bass music 20 years ago, and I was always making stuff.
20 年前我制作了电子音乐、鼓和贝斯音乐，而且我一直在创作东西。
So I think creative expression is a meaningful work that’s so important, it’s so fun.
所以我认为创意表达是一项有意义的工作，非常重要，也非常有趣。
It’s so fun to have a daily challenge where you try to figure stuff out.
每天接受挑战并尝试解决问题真是太有趣了。
But the interesting thing is you built a lot of successful products and you never really wanted to take it to that level where you scale real big and sell it to a company or something like this.
但有趣的是，你构建了很多成功的产品，但你从来没有真正想过将其提升到真正规模化并将其出售给公司或类似机构的水平。
Yeah.
是的。
07:32 The problem is I don’t dictate that.
问题是我不这么规定。
If more people start using, if millions of people suddenly start using it and it becomes big, I’m not going to say, “Oh, stop signing up to my website and paying me money.” But I never raised funding for it.
如果更多的人开始使用，如果数百万人突然开始使用它并且它变得很大，我不会说，“哦，停止注册我的网站并向我付钱。”但我从未为此筹集过资金。
And I think because I don’t like the stressful life that comes with it.
我想是因为我不喜欢随之而来的压力生活。
I have a lot of founder friends and they tell me secretly, with hundreds of millions of dollars in funding and stuff, and they tell me, “Next time, if I’m going to do it, I’m going to do it like you, because it’s more fun, it’s more indie, it’s more chill, it’s more creative.” They don’t like this.
我有很多创始人朋友，他们用数亿美元的资金和其他东西秘密地告诉我，“下次，如果我要做的话，我会像你一样做，因为它更有趣，更独立，更冷静，更有创意。”他们不喜欢这样。
They don’t like to be manager, where you become a CEO, you become a manager.
他们不喜欢当经理，而你成为首席执行官，你就成为经理。
And I think a lot of people that start startups, when they become a CEO, they don’t like that job actually, but they can’t really exit it, but they like to do the groundwork, the coding.
我认为很多创办初创公司的人，当他们成为首席执行官时，他们实际上并不喜欢这份工作，但他们无法真正退出它，但他们喜欢做基础工作，编码。
So I think that keeps you happy, doing something creative.
所以我认为做一些有创意的事情会让你感到快乐。
Yeah.
是的。
08:24 But it’s interesting how people are pulled towards that, to scale, to go really big.
但有趣的是，人们是如何被拉向这个目标、扩大规模、走向真正伟大的。
And you don’t have that honest reflection with yourself, what actually makes you happy?
而你却没有对自己进行诚实的反思，到底是什么让你快乐？
Because for a lot of great engineers, what makes them happy is the building, the “individual contributor,” where you’re actually still coding or you’re actually still building, and they let go of that and then they become unhappy.
因为对于很多伟大的工程师来说，让他们快乐的是建筑，“个人贡献者”，你实际上仍在编码或实际上仍在构建，他们放弃了这一点，然后他们变得不快乐。
But some of that is the sacrifice needed to have a impact at scale, if you truly believe in a thing you’re doing.
但如果你真正相信自己正在做的事情，那么其中一些是产生大规模影响所需的牺牲。
Look at Elon, he’s doing things million times bigger than me, and would I want to do that?
看看埃隆，他做的事情比我大一百万倍，我愿意这样做吗？
08:55 I don’t know, you cannot really choose these things, but I really respect that.
我不知道，你不能真正选择这些东西，但我真的尊重这一点。
I think Elon’s very different from VC founders.
我认为埃隆与风险投资创始人非常不同。
VC start …
VC开始...
it’s software …
这是软件……
There’s a lot of bullshit in this world, I think.
我想，这个世界上有很多废话。
There’s a lot of dodgy finance stuff happening there, I think.
我认为那里发生了很多狡猾的金融事情。
And I never have concrete evidence about it, but your gut tells you something’s going on with companies getting sold to friends and VCs and then they do reciprocity, and there’s shady financial dealings.
我从来没有这方面的具体证据，但你的直觉告诉你，公司被卖给朋友和风投公司，然后他们进行互惠，并且存在不正当的金融交易。
With Elon, there’s not.
对于埃隆来说，就没有了。
He’s just raising money from investors and he’s actually building stuff.
他只是从投资者那里筹集资金，而他实际上是在建造东西。
He needs the money to build stuff, hardware stuff.
他需要钱来建造东西，硬件东西。
And that I really respect.
我真的很尊重这一点。
You said that there’s been a few low points in your life, you’ve been depressed and building is one of the ways you get out of that.
你说你的生活中有过一些低谷，你一直很沮丧，而建设是你摆脱困境的方法之一。
09:34 But can you talk to that?
但你能谈谈吗？
Can you take me to that place?
你能带我去那个地方吗？
That time when you were at a low point?
那个时候你处于低谷？
So I was in Holland and I graduated university and I didn’t want to get a normal job and I was making some money with YouTube because I had this music career and I uploaded my music to YouTube and YouTube started paying me with AdSense, $2,000 a month, $2,000 a month.
所以我在荷兰，大学毕业了，我不想找一份正常的工作，我通过 YouTube 赚了一些钱，因为我有音乐事业，我把我的音乐上传到 YouTube，YouTube 开始通过 AdSense 向我付款，每月 2,000 美元，每月 2,000 美元。
09:47 And all my friends got normal jobs and we stopped hanging out because people in university hang out, you chill at each other’s houses, you go party.
我所有的朋友都找到了正常的工作，我们不再出去玩了，因为大学里的人都出去玩，你们在彼此的家里放松，你们去聚会。
But when people get jobs, they only party in the weekend and they don’t hang anymore in the week because you need to be at the office.
但当人们找到工作时，他们只会在周末聚会，而不会在一周内闲逛，因为你需要在办公室。
And I was like, “This is not for me.
我当时想，“这不适合我。
I want to do something else.” And I was started getting this, I think it’s Saturn return.
我想做点别的事。” And I was started getting this, I think it’s Saturn return.
When you turn 27, it’s some concept where Saturn returns to the same place in the orbit that it was when you’re born.
当你 27 岁的时候，土星会回到你出生时的轨道上的同一个位置，这是一个概念。
I’m learning so many things.
我学到了很多东西。
It’s some astrology thing.
这是一些占星学的事情。
So many truly special artists died when they were 27.
So many truly special artists died when they were 27.
Exactly.
正是如此。
10:35 There’s something with 27, man.
伙计，27 号有些东西。
And it was for me.
这是为了我。
I started going crazy, because I didn’t really see my future in Holland, buying a house, going living in the suburbs and stuff.
I started going crazy, because I didn’t really see my future in Holland, buying a house, going living in the suburbs and stuff.
So I flew out.
于是我飞了出去。
I went to Asia, started digital nomading, and did that for a year.
我去了亚洲，开始数字游牧，并这样做了一年。
And then that made me feel even worse because I was alone in hotel rooms looking at the ceiling, “What am I doing with my life?
然后这让我感觉更糟，因为我独自一人在酒店房间里看着天花板，“我这辈子在做什么？
This is …” I was working on startups and stuff, and YouTube, but I was like, “What is the future here?
这是……”我当时正在从事初创公司之类的工作，还有 YouTube，但我当时想，“这里的未来是什么？
Is this something …” while my friends in Holland were doing really well and with a normal life, so it was getting very depressed and I’m a outcast.
这是不是……”而我在荷兰的朋友们过得很好，过着正常的生活，所以我变得非常沮丧，我成了一个被遗弃的人。
11:12 My money was shrinking, I wasn’t making money anymore, a lot.
我的钱在缩水，我不再赚很多钱了。
I was making $500 a month or something.
我每个月赚 500 美元左右。
And I was looking at the ceiling thinking, “Now I’m 27, I’m a loser.” And that’s the moment when I started building startups.
我看着天花板心想：“现在我 27 岁了，我是个失败者。”那就是我开始创办初创公司的那一刻。
And it was because my dad said, “If you’re depressed, you need to get sand, get a shovel, start shoveling, doing something.
And it was because my dad said, “If you’re depressed, you need to get sand, get a shovel, start shoveling, doing something.
You can’t just sit still.” Which is an interesting way to deal with depression.
你不能坐以待毙。”这是应对抑郁症的一种有趣的方法。
It’s not, “Oh, let’s talk about it,” it’s more, “Let’s go do something.” And I started doing a project called 12 Startups in 12 months where every month I would make something like a project and I would launch it with Stripe so people could pay for it.
不是“哦，我们来谈谈吧”，而是“我们去做点什么吧”。我开始在 12 个月内做一个名为 12 Startups 的项目，每个月我都会做一个类似项目的东西，然后我会与 Stripe 一起启动它，这样人们就可以付费。
So the basic format is, try to build a thing, put it online, and put Stripe to where you can pay money for it.
所以基本的格式是，尝试构建一个东西，将其放在网上，然后将 Stripe 放在您可以为其付费的地方。
Yeah.
是的。
11:55 I’m not sponsored by Stripe, but add a Stripe Checkout button.
I’m not sponsored by Stripe, but add a Stripe Checkout button.
Is that still the easiest way to just pay for stuff, stripe?
Is that still the easiest way to just pay for stuff, stripe?
100%.
100%。
12:02 I think so.
我想是的。
It’s a cool company.
这是一家很酷的公司。
12:03 They just made it so easy, you can just click and …
They just made it so easy, you can just click and …
Yeah.
是的。
12:06 And they’re really nice.
他们真的很好。
The CEO, Patrick, is really nice.
首席执行官帕特里克（Patrick）非常友善。
Behind the scenes, it must be difficult to actually make that happen.
在幕后，真正实现这一目标一定很困难。
12:09 Because that used to be a huge problem-
因为这曾经是一个大问题——
Merchant …
商人…
Just adding a thing, a button where you can pay for a thing.
只需添加一个东西，一个可以为某个东西付费的按钮。
Dude.
伙计。
12:20 Dude, I know this because when I was-
老兄，我知道这一点是因为当我-
Trustworthy.
值得信赖。
…
……
12:23 nine years old, I was making websites also and I tried to open a merchant account.
nine years old, I was making websites also and I tried to open a merchant account.
It was before Stripe, you would have …
在 Stripe 出现之前，你会……
I think it was called Worldpay.
我想它叫 Worldpay。
So I had to fill out all these forms and then I had to fax them to America from Holland with my dad’s fax.
So I had to fill out all these forms and then I had to fax them to America from Holland with my dad’s fax.
And my dad, it was in my dad’s name, and he just signed for this.
And my dad, it was in my dad’s name, and he just signed for this.
And he started reading these terms and conditions, which is, he’s liable for $100 million in damages.
And he started reading these terms and conditions, which is, he’s liable for $100 million in damages.
And he was like, “I don’t want to sign this.” I’m like, “Dad, come on.
And he was like, “I don’t want to sign this.”我说：“爸爸，来吧。
I need a merchant account.
我需要一个商家帐户。
I need to make money on the internet.” And he signed it and we faxed it to America, and I had merchant account, but then nobody paid for anything, so that was the problem.
我需要在互联网上赚钱。” And he signed it and we faxed it to America, and I had merchant account, but then nobody paid for anything, so that was the problem.
But it’s much easier now.
但现在容易多了。
You can sign up, you add some codes and…
您可以注册，添加一些代码然后......
So 12 startups in 12 months.
12 个月内有 12 家初创公司。
13:02 Startup number one, what were you feeling?
创业第一名，你有什么感受？
What were you …
你是什么……
Sitting behind the computer, how much do you actually know about building stuff at that point?
坐在电脑后面，此时您对构建东西实际上了解多少？
I could code a little bit because I did the YouTube channel and I would make websites for the YouTube channel, it was called Panda Mix Show.
I could code a little bit because I did the YouTube channel and I would make websites for the YouTube channel, it was called Panda Mix Show.
13:18 And it was these electronic music mixes like dubstep or drum and bass or techno, house.
And it was these electronic music mixes like dubstep or drum and bass or techno, house.
I saw one of them had Flash.
我看到其中一个有Flash。
13:29 Were you using Flash?
你用的是Flash吗？
Yeah, my CD album was using Flash.
是的，我的 CD 专辑使用的是 Flash。
13:32 I sold my CD.
我卖掉了我的 CD。
Kids, Flash was a-
孩子们，Flash 是一个——
Flash was cool.
闪光很酷。
…
…
13:38 software.
软件。
This is the break, that-
这就是休息，那——
Like grandpa, but Flash was cool.
就像爷爷一样，但 Flash 很酷。
Yeah.
是的。
13:42 And there was …
还有……
what was it called?
它叫什么？
Boy, I should remember this, ActionScript.
天哪，我应该记住这一点，ActionScript。
There’s some kind of programming language.
有某种编程语言。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
13:48 ActionScript.
动作脚本。
It was in Flash.
这是在 Flash 中。
Back then, that was the JavaScript.
那时，这就是 JavaScript。
The JavaScript, yeah.
JavaScript，是的。
13:51 And I thought that’s supposed to be the dynamic thing that takes over the internet.
And I thought that’s supposed to be the dynamic thing that takes over the internet.
I invested so many hours in learning that-
我投入了很多时间来学习——
And Steve Jobs killed it.
史蒂夫·乔布斯杀死了它。
Steve Jobs killed it.
史蒂夫·乔布斯杀了它。
Steve Jobs said, ” Flash Sucks, stop using it,” and everyone’s like, “Okay.”
史蒂夫·乔布斯说，“闪存很糟糕，停止使用它”，每个人都说，“好吧。”
That guy was right though, right?
不过那家伙是对的，对吧？
Yeah, I don’t know.
是的，我不知道。
14:04 Well, it was a closed platform, I think, and-
嗯，我认为这是一个封闭的平台，而且-
Closed?
关门了？
14:08 You could just …
你可以只是……
But this is ironic, because Apple, they’re not very open, but back then Steve was like, “This is closed, we should not use it, and it has security problems,” I think, which sounded like a cop-out, like he just wanted to say that to make it look bad.
但这很讽刺，因为苹果，他们不是很开放，但当时史蒂夫说，“这是封闭的，我们不应该使用它，而且它有安全问题。”我认为，这听起来像是一种逃避，就像他只是想说这样让事情看起来很糟糕。
14:09 But Flash was cool.
但 Flash 很酷。
Yeah, it was cool for a time.
是的，有一段时间很酷。
14:22 Listen, animated GIFs were cool for a time too.
听着，动画 GIF 一度也很酷。
They came back in a different way, as a meme, though.
不过，他们以不同的方式回归，作为一种模因。
I remember when GIFs were actually cool, not ironically cool.
我记得 GIF 真的很酷，而不是讽刺性的酷。
On the internet you would have a dancing rabbit or something like this, and that was really exciting.
在互联网上你会看到一只跳舞的兔子或类似的东西，这真的很令人兴奋。
You had the Lex homepage, everything was centered and you had Pieter’s homepage and the under construction GIF, which was a guy with a helmet and the lights, it was amazing.
你有 Lex 主页，一切都居中，还有 Pieter 的主页和正在构建的 GIF，这是一个戴着头盔和灯光的人，太棒了。
And the banners.
还有横幅。
14:56 That’s how …
就是这样……
Before Google AdSense you would have banners for advertising.
在 Google AdSense 出现之前，您需要使用横幅广告。
It was amazing.
太棒了。
And a lot of links to porn, I think.
我想还有很多色情链接。
15:01 Or porny-type links.
或色情类型的链接。
I think that was where the merchant accounts …
我认为那是商人账户的地方......
15:04 people would use for.
人们会用来。
People would make money a lot.
人们会赚很多钱。
The only money made on internet then was porn, or a lot of it.
当时在互联网上唯一能赚到的钱就是色情片，或者说很多。
Yeah, it was a dark place.
是的，那是一个黑暗的地方。
15:12 It’s still a dark place, but there’s beauty in the darkness.
It’s still a dark place, but there’s beauty in the darkness.
Anyway, so you did some basic HTML …
不管怎样，你已经做了一些基本的 HTML ...
Yeah.
是的。
15:20 But I had to learn the actual coding, so this was good.
But I had to learn the actual coding, so this was good.
It was a good idea to …
这是个好主意……
every month launch a startup, so I could learn to code, learn basic stuff.
每个月都会启动一家初创公司，这样我就可以学习编码，学习基本的东西。
But it was still very scrappy, which is on purpose, because I didn’t have time to spend a lot of …
但它仍然非常斗志旺盛，这是故意的，因为我没有时间花很多……
I had a month to do something, so I couldn’t spend more than a month and I was pretty strict about that.
我有一个月的时间来做某件事，所以我不能花超过一个月的时间，而且我对此非常严格。
And I published it as a blog post.
我将其作为博客文章发布。
I think I put it on Hacker News and people would check, “Oh, did you actually …” I felt accountability because I put it public, that I actually had to do it.
我想我把它放在黑客新闻上，人们会检查，“哦，你真的……”我感到有责任，因为我把它公开了，我实际上必须这样做。
Do you remember the first one you did?
你还记得你做的第一个吗？
I think it was Play My Inbox, because back then my friends, we would send cool …
我认为这是“播放我的收件箱”，因为当时我的朋友们，我们会发送很酷的......
15:52 It was before Spotify, I think.
我想那是在 Spotify 出现之前。
2013, we would send music to each other, YouTube links.
2013年，我们会互相发送音乐、YouTube链接。
“This is a cool song, this is a cool song.” And it was these giant email threads on Gmail and they were unnavigable.
“这是一首很酷的歌，这是一首很酷的歌。” Gmail 上的这些巨大的电子邮件线程无法导航。
So I made an app that would log into your Gmail, get the emails and find ones with YouTube links, and then make a gallery of your songs, essentially Spotify.
所以我制作了一个应用程序，可以登录你的 Gmail，获取电子邮件并查找带有 YouTube 链接的电子邮件，然后制作你的歌曲库，本质上就是 Spotify。
And my friends loved it.
我的朋友们很喜欢它。
Was it scraping it?
是不是刮的啊？
16:21 What was it, an API?
它是什么，API？
No, it uses POP.
不，它使用 POP。
16:23 POP or IMAP.
POP 或 IMAP。
It would actually check your email.
它实际上会检查您的电子邮件。
So it had privacy concerns, because it would get all your emails to find YouTube links, but then I wouldn’t save anything.
So it had privacy concerns, because it would get all your emails to find YouTube links, but then I wouldn’t save anything.
But that was fun.
但这很有趣。
And that first product already would get press, it went on, I think, some tech media and stuff, and I was like, “This is cool.” It didn’t make money, there was no payment button, but it was actually people using it.
And that first product already would get press, it went on, I think, some tech media and stuff, and I was like, “This is cool.”它不赚钱，没有支付按钮，但实际上是人们在使用它。
I think tens of thousands of people used it.
我想有成千上万的人使用过它。
That’s a great idea.
这是个好主意。
16:51 I wonder why don’t we have that?
我想知道为什么我们没有那个？
Why don’t we have things that access Gmail and extract some useful aggregate information?
为什么我们没有能够访问 Gmail 并提取一些有用的聚合信息的东西？
Yeah.
是的。
17:01 You could tell Gmail, “Don’t give me all the emails, just give me the ones with YouTube links or something like that.”
你可以告诉 Gmail，“不要给我所有电子邮件，只要给我带有 YouTube 链接或类似内容的电子邮件即可。”
There is a whole ecosystem of apps you can build on top of the Google, but people don’t really-
There is a whole ecosystem of apps you can build on top of the Google, but people don’t really-
Never do this.
永远不要这样做。
17:12 I never see them-
我从来没有见过他们——
They build …
他们建造……
17:13 I’ve seen a few like Boomerang, there’s a few apps that are good, but I wonder what …
I’ve seen a few like Boomerang, there’s a few apps that are good, but I wonder what …
Maybe it’s not easy to make money.
也许赚钱并不容易。
I think it’s hard to get people to pay for these extensions and plugins.
I think it’s hard to get people to pay for these extensions and plugins.
17:22 Because it’s not a real app, so it’s not …
因为它不是一个真正的应用程序，所以它不是......
people don’t value it.
人们不重视它。
People value it, “Oh, a plugin should be free.
人们很看重它，“哦，插件应该是免费的。
When I want to use a plugin in Google Sheets or something, I’m not going to pay for it.
When I want to use a plugin in Google Sheets or something, I’m not going to pay for it.
It should be free,” which is …
它应该是免费的，”这是......
But if you go to a website and you actually …
但如果你访问一个网站并且实际上......
“Okay, I need this product, I’m going to pay for this because it’s a real product.” So even though it’s the same code in the back, it’s a plugin.
“Okay, I need this product, I’m going to pay for this because it’s a real product.” So even though it’s the same code in the back, it’s a plugin.
Yeah.
是的。
17:44 You could do it through extensions, Chrome extensions from the browser side.
您可以通过浏览器端的扩展程序、Chrome 扩展程序来完成此操作。
Yeah, but who pays for Chrome extensions?
是的，但是谁来为 Chrome 扩展付费呢？
17:49 Barely anybody.
几乎没有人。
Nobody.
没有人。
So that’s not a good place to make money, probably.
So that’s not a good place to make money, probably.
Yeah, that sucks.
是的，那很糟糕。
Chrome extension should be a extension for your startup.
Chrome extension should be a extension for your startup.
17:55 You have a product, “Oh, we also have a Chrome extension.”
You have a product, “Oh, we also have a Chrome extension.”
I wish the Chrome extension would be the product.
我希望 Chrome 扩展能够成为产品。
18:01 I wish Chrome would support that, where you could pay for it easily …
I wish Chrome would support that, where you could pay for it easily …
I can imagine a lot of products that would just live as extensions, like improvements for social media.
我可以想象很多产品只是作为扩展而存在，比如社交媒体的改进。
Like GPTs.
就像 GPT 一样。
GPTs, yeah.
GPT，是的。
These ChatGPTs, they’re going to charge money for it, now you get a rev share, I think, from Open AI, I made a lot of them also.
These ChatGPTs, they’re going to charge money for it, now you get a rev share, I think, from Open AI, I made a lot of them also.
Why?
为什么？
18:24 We’ll talk about it.
我们会讨论它。
So let’s rewind back.
那么让我们回顾一下。
It’s a pretty cool idea to do 12 startups in 12 months.
It’s a pretty cool idea to do 12 startups in 12 months.
What’s it take to build a thing in 30 days?
在 30 天内建造一个东西需要什么？
At that time, how hard was that?
那个时候，有多难呢？
I think the hard part is figuring out what you shouldn’t add, what you shouldn’t build, because you don’t have time.
我认为困难的部分是弄清楚你不应该添加什么，你不应该构建什么，因为你没有时间。
18:37 So you need to build a landing page.
所以你需要建立一个登陆页面。
Well, you need to build the product, actually, because there needs to be something they pay for.
嗯，实际上，你需要构建产品，因为他们需要付费。
Do you need to build a login system?
您需要建立一个登录系统吗？
Maybe no.
也许不会。
Maybe you can build some scrappy login system.
也许你可以构建一些杂乱的登录系统。
For photo AI, you sign up, you pay with Stripe Checkout and you get a login link.
对于照片 AI，您需要注册、使用 Stripe Checkout 付款并获得登录链接。
And when I started out, there was only a login link with a hash, and that’s just a static link, so it’s very easy to log in.
当我开始时，只有一个带有哈希值的登录链接，而且这只是一个静态链接，因此登录非常容易。
It’s not so safe, what if you leak the link?
不太安全，万一泄露链接怎么办？
And now I have real Google login, but that took a year.
现在我有了真正的谷歌登录，但这花了一年的时间。
So keeping it very scrappy is very important to …
因此，保持斗志旺盛对于……来说非常重要。
because you don’t have time.
因为你没有时间。
You need to focus on what you can build fast.
您需要专注于可以快速构建的内容。
19:17 So money, Stripe, build a product, build a landing page.
所以，有钱，Stripe，打造一个产品，打造一个登陆页面。
You need to think about, “How are people going to find this?” So are you going to put it on Reddit or something?
你需要考虑“人们如何找到这个？”那么你打算把它放在 Reddit 或者其他什么地方吗？
How are you going to put it on Reddit without being looked at as a spammer?
如何将其发布到 Reddit 上而不被视为垃圾邮件发送者？
If you say, “Hey, it is my new startup, you should use it,” no, nobody …
如果你说，“嘿，这是我的新创业公司，你应该使用它，”不，没有人......
It gets deleted.
它被删除。
Maybe if you find a problem that a lot of people on Reddit already have, on a subreddit and you solve that problem, say, “What’s up, people.
或许，如果你在 Reddit 子版块上发现了很多人已经遇到的问题，并且解决了这个问题，可以说：“大家怎么了？
I made this thing that might solve your problem,” and maybe, “It’s free for now.” That could work.
我制作的这个东西可能会解决你的问题，”也许，“它现在是免费的。”那可行。
But you need to be very …
但你需要非常...
Narrow it down, what you’re building.
缩小范围，你正在构建什么。
Time is limited.
时间有限。
19:53 Actually, can we go back to the you laying in a room feeling like a loser, I still feel like a loser sometimes.
事实上，我们可以回到你躺在房间里感觉像个失败者的样子吗，有时我仍然觉得自己像个失败者。
Can you speak to that feeling, to that place of just feeling like a loser?
你能谈谈那种感觉，那种感觉就像个失败者的感觉吗？
Because I think a lot of people in this world are laying in a room right now listening to this and feeling like a loser.
因为我认为这个世界上有很多人现在躺在一个房间里听着这个，感觉自己像个失败者。
Okay.
好的。
20:18 So I think it’s normal if you’re young that you feel like a loser, first of all.
所以我认为，如果你还年轻，首先感觉自己是个失败者，这很正常。
Especially when you’re 27.
尤其是当你27岁的时候。
Yes, yes.
是的，是的。
There’s a peak.
有一个高峰。
Yeah.
是的。
20:26 Yeah.
是的。
I think 27 is the peak.
我认为27岁是巅峰。
And so I would not kill yourselves, it’s very important.
所以我不会自杀，这很重要。
Just get through it.
只要熬过去就好了。
But because you have nothing, you have probably no money, you have no business, you have no job.
但因为你一无所有，你可能没有钱，你没有生意，你没有工作。
Jordan Peterson said this.
乔丹·彼得森这样说道。
I saw it somewhere, “The reason people are depressed is because they have nothing.
我在哪里看到过这样一句话：“人之所以抑郁，是因为他们一无所有。
They don’t have a girlfriend, they don’t have or boyfriend, they don’t have …” You need stuff, or a family.
他们没有女朋友，他们没有男朋友，他们没有……”你需要东西，或者一个家庭。
You need things around you.
你需要你身边的东西。
You need to build a life for yourself.
你需要为自己创造生活。
If you don’t build a life for yourself, you’ll be depressed.
如果你不为自己创造生活，你就会感到沮丧。
So if you’re alone in Asia in a hostel looking at the ceiling and you don’t have any money coming in, you don’t have a girlfriend, you don’t …
所以，如果你独自一人在亚洲的旅馆里看着天花板，你没有任何钱进来，你没有女朋友，你没有......
of course you’re depressed.
你当然很沮丧。
It’s logic.
这是逻辑。
But back then, if you’re in the moment you think, “This is not logic, there’s something wrong with me.”
但当时，如果你当时想，“这不符合逻辑，我有问题。”
21:04 And also I think I started getting anxiety and I think I started going a little bit crazy where I think travel can make you insane.
而且我想我开始变得焦虑，我想我开始有点疯狂，我认为旅行会让你发疯。
And I know this because I know that there’s digital nomads that …
我知道这一点是因为我知道有数字游牧民……
they kill themselves.
他们自杀了。
And I haven’t checked the comparison with baseline people suicide rate, but I have a hunch, especially in the beginning when it was a very new thing 10 years ago, that it can be very psychologically taxing, and you’re alone a lot.
我还没有检查过与基线人群自杀率的比较，但我有一种预感，尤其是在 10 年前它还是一个非常新的事物的时候，它可能会在心理上造成很大的负担，而且你经常感到孤独。
Back then when you travel alone, there was no other digital moments back then, a lot.
那时，当你独自旅行时，那时没有很多其他数字时刻。
So you’re in a strange culture, you look different than everybody.
所以你生活在一个陌生的文化中，你看起来和每个人都不一样。
I was in Asia, everybody’s really nice in Thailand, but you’re not part of the culture.
我在亚洲，泰国的每个人都很好，但你不属于这种文化。
You’re traveling around, you’re hopping from city to city.
你四处旅行，从一个城市跳到另一个城市。
You don’t have a home anymore.
你已经没有家了。
You feel disrooted.
你感觉自己失去了根基。
And you’re constantly an outcast in that you’re different from everybody else.
而且你总是被遗弃，因为你与其他人不同。
Yes, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
21:55 But people treat you …
但人们对待你...
Like Thailand, people are so nice, but you still feel like a outcast.
就像泰国一样，人们都很友善，但你仍然感觉自己像个被遗弃的人。
And then I think the digital nomads I met then were all …
然后我想我当时遇到的数字游牧民都是……
it was shady business.
这是不正当的生意。
They were vigilantes, because it was a new thing.
他们是义务警员，因为这是新事物。
And one guy was selling illegal drugs.
其中一名男子正在出售非法毒品。
It was an American guy, was selling illegal drugs via UPS to Americans on this website, there were a lot of drop shippers doing shady stuff.
这是一个美国人，在这个网站上通过 UPS 向美国人出售非法毒品，有很多转运商在做不正当的事情。
There was a lot of shady things going on there.
那里发生了很多阴暗的事情。
And they didn’t look like very balanced people.
而且他们看起来不像是非常平衡的人。
They didn’t look like people I wanted to hang with.
他们看起来不像是我想与之相处的人。
So I also felt outcast from other foreigners in Thailand, other digital nomads.
因此，我也感到自己被泰国的其他外国人、其他数字游牧民族所排斥。
And I was like, “Man, I made a big mistake.” And then I went back to Holland and then I got even more depressed.
我当时想，“伙计，我犯了一个大错误。”然后我回到荷兰，我变得更加沮丧。
You said digital nomad.
你说的是数字游牧者。
22:32 What is digital nomad?
什么是数字游民？
What is that way of life?
那是什么生活方式？
What is the philosophy there?
那里的哲学是什么？
And the history of the movement?
这场运动的历史又是怎样的呢？
I struck upon it on accident, because I was like, “I’m going to graduate university and then I need to get out of here.
我偶然发现了它，因为我当时想，“我要大学毕业，然后我需要离开这里。
22:38 I’ll fly to Asia,” because I’d been before in Asia.
我会飞往亚洲，”因为我以前来过亚洲。
I studied in Korea in 2009, study exchange.
我2009年去韩国留学，交换学习。
So I was like, “Asia is easy, Thailand’s easy.
所以我想，“亚洲很容易，泰国也很容易。
I’ll just go there, figure things out.” And it’s cheap.
我就去那里，把事情弄清楚。”而且很便宜。
It’s very cheap.
非常便宜。
Chiang Mai, I would live for $150 per month rent for private room, pretty good.
清迈，我住的是每月150美元的包间房租，还不错。
So I struck upon this on accident.
所以我偶然想到了这一点。
I was like, “Okay, there’s other people on laptops working on their startup or working remotely.” Back then nobody worked remotely, but they worked on their businesses, and they would live in Columbia or Thailand or Vietnam or Bali.
我当时想，“好吧，还有其他人在笔记本电脑上工作或远程工作。”当时没有人远程工作，但他们都在做自己的生意，他们会住在哥伦比亚、泰国、越南或巴厘岛。
They would live in more cheap places.
他们会住在更便宜的地方。
23:16 And it looked like a very adventurous life.
这看起来像是一种非常冒险的生活。
You travel around, you build your business, there’s no pressure from your home society.
你到处旅行，你建立自己的事业，没有来自家乡社会的压力。
You’re American, so you get pressure from American society telling you what to do, “You need to buy a house,” or “You need to do this stuff.” I had this in Holland too.
你是美国人，所以你会受到来自美国社会的压力，告诉你该怎么做，“你需要买房子”，或者“你需要做这些事情”。我在荷兰也吃过这个。
And you can get away from this pressure, and you can feel like you’re free.
你可以摆脱这种压力，感觉自己自由了。
There’s nobody telling you what to do.
没有人告诉你该做什么。
But that’s also why you start feeling like you go crazy, because you are free, you’re disattached from anything and anybody.
但这也是为什么你开始感觉自己疯了，因为你是自由的，你与任何事、任何人都脱离了。
You’re disattached from your culture, you’re disattached from the culture you’re probably in because you’re staying very short.
你脱离了你的文化，你脱离了你可能所处的文化，因为你停留的时间很短。
I think Franz Kafka said, “I’m free, therefore I’m lost.”
我想弗兰兹·卡夫卡说过：“我自由了，所以我迷失了。”
Man, that’s so true.
伙计，那是真的。
23:53 That’s exactly the point.
这正是重点。
And freedom, it’s the definition of no constraints.
而自由，就是没有约束的定义。
Anything is possible, you can go anywhere.
一切皆有可能，你可以去任何地方。
And everybody’s like, “Oh, that must be super nice.
每个人都会说，“哦，那一定非常好。
Freedom, you must be very happy.” And it’s the opposite.
自由了，你一定很幸福吧。”事实恰恰相反。
I don’t think that makes you happy.
我不认为这会让你高兴。
I think constraints probably make you happy.
我认为约束可能会让你快乐。
And that’s a big lesson I learned then.
这是我当时学到的一个重要教训。
But what were they making for money?
但他们靠什么赚钱呢？
24:14 So you’re saying they were doing shady stuff at that time?
那你是说他们当时在做一些见不得人的事？
For me, because I was more like a developer, I wanted to make startups and there was drugs being shipped to America, diet pills and stuff.
对我来说，因为我更像是一名开发人员，所以我想创办初创公司，并且有药物被运往美国，减肥药之类的东西。
24:19 Non FDA-approved stuff.
未经 FDA 批准的东西。
We would sit with beers and they would laugh about all the dodgy shit they’re doing.
我们会坐在一起喝啤酒，他们会嘲笑他们所做的所有狡猾的事情。
Ah, that part of …
啊，那部分……
24:37 Okay, I see.
好吧，我明白了。
That kind of vibe, sleazy e-com vibe.
那种氛围，肮脏的电子通讯氛围。
24:38 I’m not saying all e-com is sleazy, but you know this vibe.
我并不是说所有的电子商务都是低俗的，但你知道这种氛围。
It could be a vibe.
这可能是一种氛围。
24:44 And your vibe was more-
而你的氛围更-
Make cool stuff.
制作很酷的东西。
“Build cool shit that’s ethical.”
“打造符合道德的酷炫作品。”
Yeah.
是的。
24:50 You know the guys with sports cars in Dubai, these people, e-com, “Bro, you got to drop ship and you’ll make $100 million a month,” there was people with this shit, and I was like, “This is not my people.”
你知道迪拜有跑车的人，这些人，电子商务，“兄弟，你必须放弃发货，你每个月就能赚 1 亿美元，”有人有这种狗屎，我当时想，“这不是我的人。”
Yeah.
是的。
25:01 There’s nothing wrong with any of those individual components-
这些单独的组件都没有任何问题 -
No, no judgment.
不，没有判断力。
…
……
25:05 but there’s a foundation that’s not quite ethical.
但有一个不太道德的基金会。
What is that?
那是什么？
I don’t know what that is, but I get you.
我不知道那是什么，但我明白你的意思。
No, I don’t want to judge.
不，我不想评判。
25:12 I know that for me it wasn’t my world, it wasn’t my subculture.
我知道对我来说这不是我的世界，这不是我的亚文化。
I wanted to make cool shit, but they also think their cool shit is cool, so …
我想做一些很酷的东西，但他们也认为他们的酷东西很酷，所以……
But I wanted to make real startups and that was my thing.
但我想创办真正的初创公司，这就是我的事。
I would read Hacker News, Y Combinator, and they were making cool stuff, so I wanted to make cool stuff.
我会阅读 Hacker News、Y Combinator，他们正在制作很酷的东西，所以我想制作很酷的东西。
That’s a pretty cool way of life, just if you romanticize it for a moment.
这是一种很酷的生活方式，只要你把它浪漫化一会儿。
It’s very romantic, man.
这非常浪漫，伙计。
25:34 It’s colorful, if I think about the memories.
如果我回想那些记忆，它是丰富多彩的。
What are some happy memories?
有哪些幸福的回忆？
25:39 Just working cafes or working in …
只是在咖啡馆工作或在……工作
Just the freedom that envelops you with that way of life.
就是那种生活方式包围着你的自由。
Because anything is possible.
因为一切皆有可能。
You can just get off of the-
你可以下车-
Oh, I think it was amazing.
哦，我觉得这太棒了。
25:53 I would make friends and we would work until 6:00 AM in Bali, for example, with Andre, my best friend who is still my best friend, and another friend.
我会交朋友，我们会在巴厘岛工作到早上 6:00，例如，与我最好的朋友安德烈（现在仍然是我最好的朋友）和另一个朋友一起工作。
And we would work until the morning when the sun came up, because at night the coworking space was silent.
我们会工作到早上太阳升起，因为晚上联合办公空间很安静。
There was nobody else.
没有其他人。
And I would wake up 6:00 PM or 5:00 PM, I would drive to the coworking space on a motorbike.
我会在下午 6:00 或 5:00 起床，然后骑摩托车前往联合办公空间。
I would buy 30 hot lattes from a cafe …
我会从咖啡馆买 30 杯热拿铁……
How many?
有多少？
30.
30.
26:24 Because there was like six people coming, or we didn’t know.
因为大约有六个人来了，或者我们不知道。
Sometimes people would come in.
有时会有人进来。
Did you say three, zero, 30?
你说的是三、零、三十吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Nice.
好的。
And we would drink four per person or something.
我们每人喝四杯什么的。
26:34 Man, it’s Bali, I don’t know if they were powerful lattes, but they were lattes.
伙计，这是巴厘岛，我不知道他们是否是强力拿铁，但他们是拿铁。
And we’d put them in plastic bag and then I would drive there and all the coffee was falling everywhere.
我们把它们放在塑料袋里，然后我开车去那里，所有的咖啡都掉得到处都是。
And then we’d go into the coworking station and have these coffees here and we’d work all night.
然后我们会去联合办公站喝咖啡，然后工作一整夜。
We’d play techno music and everybody would just work in there.
我们会播放电子音乐，每个人都会在那里工作。
This would …
这会……
Literally business people, they would work in their startup and we’d all try and make something.
名副其实的商人，他们会在自己的初创公司工作，我们都会尝试做点什么。
And then the sun would come up and the morning people, the yoga girls and yoga guys would come in after the yoga class at 6:00 and they say, “Hey, good morning.” We looked like this, and we’re like, “What up?
然后太阳就会升起，早上的人们、瑜伽女孩和瑜伽男孩会在 6:00 的瑜伽课结束后进来，他们说：“嘿，早上好。”我们看起来像这样，然后我们说：“怎么了？
How are you doing?” And we didn’t know how bad we looked, but it was very bad.
你怎么样？我们不知道自己看起来有多糟糕，但确实非常糟糕。
And then we would go home, sleep in a hostel or a hotel, and do the same thing, and again and again and again.
然后我们会回家，睡在旅馆或酒店里，做同样的事情，一次又一次。
And it was this lock-in mode, working.
正是这种锁定模式发挥了作用。
And that was very fun.
这非常有趣。
So it’s just a bunch of you, techno music blasting all through the night?
所以只有你们一群人整晚都在播放着电子音乐？
More like (singing).
更像是（唱歌）。
Oh, so rapid pace.
哦，节奏好快啊。
Like industrial, not like this cheesy-
喜欢工业风，而不是俗气的-
See, for me, it’s such an interesting thing because the speed of the beat affects how I feel about a thing.
看，对我来说，这是一件很有趣的事情，因为节拍的速度会影响我对事物的感受。
27:36 So the faster it is, the more anxiety I feel, but that anxiety is channeled into productivity.
所以速度越快，我感到的焦虑就越多，但这种焦虑会转化为生产力。
But if it’s a little too fast, I start …
但如果有点太快了，我就开始……
the anxiety overpowers.
焦虑压倒了一切。
So you don’t like drum and bass music?
那么你不喜欢鼓和贝斯音乐吗？
Probably not.
可能不会。
No, it’s too fast.
不，这太快了。
For working.
为了工作。
27:55 I have to play with it.
我必须玩它。
You can actually …
你实际上可以……
I can adjust my level of anxiety.
我可以调整自己的焦虑程度。
There must be a better word than anxiety.
一定有一个比焦虑更好的词。
It’s like a productive anxiety that I like, whatever that is.
这就像我喜欢的一种富有成效的焦虑，不管那是什么。
It also depends, what kind of work you do.
这还取决于您从事什么类型的工作。
28:07 If you’re writing, you probably don’t want drum and bass music.
如果你正在写作，你可能不需要鼓和贝斯音乐。
I think for code, industrial, techno, this kind of stuff, fast, it works well because you really get locked in and combined with caffeine, you go deep.
我认为对于代码、工业、技术这类东西来说，速度快，效果很好，因为你真的被锁定并与咖啡因结合，你会深入。
And I think you balance on this edge of anxiety, because this caffeine is also hitting your anxiety and you want to be on the edge of anxiety with this techno running.
我认为你在焦虑的边缘保持平衡，因为咖啡因也会打击你的焦虑，而你希望通过这种技术跑步处于焦虑的边缘。
Sometimes it gets too much, it’s like, “Stop the techno, stop the music.” But those are good memories.
有时它变得太多了，就像“停止电子音乐，停止音乐。”但那些都是美好的回忆。
And also travel memories.
还有旅行的回忆。
You go from city to city and it feels like it’s jet set life.
你从一个城市到另一个城市，感觉就像是喷气式飞机的生活。
It feels very beautiful.
感觉非常美丽。
You’re seeing a lot of cool cities, and-
你会看到很多很酷的城市，而且-
What was your favorite place that you remember you visited?
您记得您去过的最喜欢的地方是哪里？
I think still Bangkok is the best place.
我认为曼谷仍然是最好的地方。
28:50 Bangkok and Chiang Mai.
曼谷和清迈。
I think Thailand is very special.
我觉得泰国很特别。
I’ve been to the other place, I’ve been to Vietnam and I’ve been to South America and stuff.
我去过其他地方，我去过越南，我去过南美等等。
I still think Thailand wins in how nice people are, how easy of a life people have there.
我仍然认为泰国的胜利在于那里的人们多么友善，人们的生活多么轻松。
Everything’s cheap and good.
一切都又便宜又好。
Well, Bangkok is getting expensive now, but Chiang Mai is still cheap.
嗯，曼谷现在越来越贵了，但是清迈还是便宜。
29:10 I think when you’re starting out, it’s a great place.
我认为当你刚开始时，这是一个很棒的地方。
Man, the air quality sucks, it’s a big problem.
伙计，空气质量很糟糕，这是一个大问题。
And it’s quite hot.
而且非常热。
But that’s a very cool place.
但这是一个非常酷的地方。
Pros and cons.
优点和缺点。
I love Brazil also.
我也爱巴西。
29:23 My girlfriend is Brazilian, but I do love not just because of that, but I like Brazil.
我的女朋友是巴西人，但我爱巴西不仅仅是因为这个，而是我喜欢巴西。
The problem still is the safety issue.
问题仍然是安全问题。
It’s like in America, it’s localized.
就像在美国一样，它是本地化的。
It’s hard for Europeans to understand, safety is localized to specific areas.
欧洲人很难理解，安全是局限于特定领域的。
So if you go to the right areas, it’s amazing.
所以，如果你去对了地方，那就太棒了。
Brazil’s amazing.
巴西太棒了。
If you go to the wrong areas, maybe you die.
如果你走错了地方，也许你就会死。
Yeah.
是的。
29:44 That’s true.
这是真的。
But it’s not true in Europe.
但在欧洲却并非如此。
29:45 Europe’s much more average.
欧洲的情况要平均得多。
That’s true.
这是真的。
29:48 That’s true.
这是真的。
You’re right.
你说得对。
You’re right.
你说得对。
You’re right.
你说得对。
It’s more averaged out.
它更加平均。
I like it when there’s strong neighborhoods.
我喜欢有强大的社区。
When you’re like, “You cross a certain street and you’re in the dangerous part of town.” I like it.
当你这样想时，“你穿过某条街道，你就到了镇上的危险地区。”我喜欢它。
There’s certain cities in the United States like that, I like that.
美国有些城市就是这样，我喜欢这样。
And you’re saying Europe is more [inaudible 00:30:07]
你是说欧洲更 [听不清 00:30:07]
But you don’t feel scared?
但你不觉得害怕吗？
Well, I don’t.
嗯，我不知道。
30:06 I like danger.
我喜欢危险。
Well, you do BJJ.
好吧，你会练巴西柔术。
Well, no.
嗯，不。
30:08 Not even just that.
还不仅如此。
I think danger is interesting, so …
我认为危险很有趣，所以……
Danger reveals something about yourself, about others.
危险揭示了关于你自己和他人的一些事情。
Also, I like the full range of humanity.
另外，我喜欢全方位的人性。
So I don’t like the mellowed out aspects of humanity.
所以我不喜欢人性中成熟的一面。
I have friends like these, I’m with friends that are exactly like this.
我有这样的朋友，我和这样的朋友在一起。
30:23 They go to the broken areas.
他们前往破碎地区。
They like this reality.
他们喜欢这个现实。
They like authenticity more.
他们更喜欢真实。
They don’t like luxury, they don’t like-
他们不喜欢奢华，他们不喜欢——
Oh yeah, I hate luxury.
哦，是的，我讨厌奢侈。
Yeah, it’s very European of you.
是的，你很有欧洲风格。
Wait, what was that?
等等，那是什么？
30:38 That’s a whole nother conversation.
那是另一场谈话了。
So you quoted Freya Stark, “To awaken quite alone in a strange town is one of the most pleasant sensations in the world.” Do you remember a time you awoken in a strange town and felt like that?
所以你引用了弗雷娅·史塔克的话：“在一个陌生的小镇独自醒来是世界上最愉快的感觉之一。”你还记得有一次你在一个陌生的小镇醒来并有这样的感觉吗？
We’re talking about small towns or big towns?
我们谈论的是小城镇还是大城市？
Or …
或者……
Man, anywhere.
伙计，任何地方。
31:00 I think I wrote it in some blog post and it was a common thing when you would wake up, and this was …
我想我在一些博客文章中写过它，当你醒来时这是很常见的事情，这是......
Because I have this website, I started a website about this digital nomads called nomadlist.com, and it was a community, so it was 30,000 other digital nomads, because I was feeling lonely.
因为我有这个网站，所以我创建了一个关于这个数字游牧民族的网站，名为 nomadlist.com，它是一个社区，所以有 30,000 个其他数字游牧民族，因为我感到孤独。
So I built this website and I stopped feeling lonely.
所以我建立了这个网站，我不再感到孤独。
I started organizing meetups and making friends.
我开始组织聚会并结交朋友。
And it was very common that people would say they would wake up and they would forget where they are for the first half minute.
人们经常会说他们会醒来，然后在前半分钟忘记自己在哪里。
And they had to look outside, ” Where am I?
他们必须向外看，“我在哪里？
Which country?” Which sounds really like privileged, but it was more funny.
哪个国家？”这听起来真的很特权，但更有趣。
You literally don’t know where you are because you’re so disrooted?
你真的不知道自己在哪里，因为你是如此的迷失？
But there’s something …
但有件事……
Man, it’s like Anthony Bourdain.
伙计，这就像安东尼·波登。
There’s something pure about this vagabond travel thing.
这种流浪旅行有一些纯粹的东西。
It’s behind me, I think.
我想，它就在我身后。
Now I travel with my girlfriend, it’s very different.
现在我和女朋友一起去旅行，感觉很不一样。
But it is romantic memories of this vagabond, individualistic solo life.
但这是对这种流浪、个人主义独身生活的浪漫回忆。
But the thing is it didn’t make me happy, but it was very cool.
但问题是它并没有让我高兴，但它非常酷。
But it didn’t make me happy, it made me anxious.
但这并没有让我高兴，反而让我焦虑。
There’s something about-
有一些关于-
Very cool, but it didn’t make me happy, right?
很酷，但这并没有让我高兴，对吧？
32:00 It made me anxious.
这让我很焦虑。
There’s something about it that made you anxious.
有一些事情让你感到焦虑。
32:03 I don’t know, I still feel like that.
我不知道，我仍然有这样的感觉。
It’s a cool feeling.
这是一种很酷的感觉。
It’s scary at first, but then you realize where you are, and I don’t know, it’s like you awaken to the possibilities of this place when you feel like that.
一开始很害怕，但后来你意识到自己在哪里，我不知道，当你有这种感觉时，就好像你觉醒了这个地方的可能性。
That’s it.
就是这样。
It’s great, and it’s even when you’re doing basic travel, like go to San Francisco or something else.
这很棒，甚至当您进行基本旅行时（例如去旧金山或其他地方）也是如此。
Yeah, you have the novelty effect, like you’re in a new place, like here things are possible.
是的，你有一种新奇的效果，就像你在一个新的地方，就像在这里一切皆有可能。
32:23 You don’t get bored yet, and that’s why people get addicted to travel.
你还不会感到无聊，这就是人们对旅行上瘾的原因。
Back to startups, you wrote a book on how to do this thing, and gave a great talk on it, how to do startups, the book’s called MAKE: Bootstrapper’s Handbook.
回到初创公司，你写了一本关于如何做这件事的书，并就如何做初创公司进行了精彩的演讲，这本书的名字叫《MAKE：Bootstrapper’s Handbook》。
Yeah.
是的。
I was wondering if you could go through some of the steps.
我想知道您是否可以完成其中的一些步骤。
32:44 It’s idea, build, launch, grow, monetize, automate, and exit.
它包括创意、构建、启动、发展、货币化、自动化和退出。
There’s a lot of fascinating ideas in each one, so idea stage, how do you find a good idea?
每一个都有很多令人着迷的想法，那么在想法阶段，你如何找到一个好想法呢？
So, I think you need to be able to spot problems.
所以，我认为你需要能够发现问题。
32:56 So for example, you can go in your daily life, like when you wake up and you’re like, “What is stuff that I’m really annoyed with that’s like in my daily life that doesn’t function well?” And that’s a problem that you can see, okay, maybe that’s something I can write code for, and it will make my life easier.
举例来说，你可以走进你的日常生活，就像当你醒来时，你会想，“我真的很恼火，就像在我的日常生活中，哪些东西运转得不好？”这是一个你可以看到的问题，好吧，也许我可以为此编写代码，这会让我的生活更轻松。
So, I would say make a list of all these problems you have, and an idea to solve it, and see which one is viable, you can actually do something, and then start building it.
所以，我想说，列出你遇到的所有这些问题，以及解决它的想法，看看哪一个是可行的，你实际上可以做一些事情，然后开始构建它。
So, that’s a really good place to start.
所以，这是一个非常好的起点。
33:25 Become open to all the problems in your life, like actually start noticing them.
对生活中的所有问题保持开放的态度，就像真正开始注意到它们一样。
I think that’s actually not a trivial thing to do, to realize that some aspects of your life could be done way, way better, because we kind of very quickly get accustomed to discomforts.
我认为这实际上并不是一件小事，要意识到你生活的某些方面可以做得更好，因为我们很快就会习惯不适。
Exactly.
确切地。
Like for example, doorknobs, like design of certain things.
例如，门把手，就像某些东西的设计。
The new Lex Fridman doorknob, [inaudible 00:33:53]-
新的 Lex Fridman 门把手，[听不清 00:33:53]-
That one I know how much incredible design work has gone into.
我知道这其中投入了多少令人难以置信的设计工作。
33:53 It’s really interesting, doors and doorknobs, just the design of everyday things, forks and spoons.
真的很有趣，门和门把手，只是日常用品的设计，叉子和勺子。
It’s going to be hard to come up with a fork that’s better than the current fork designs, and the other aspect of it is you’re saying in order to come up with interesting ideas, you got to try to live a more interesting life.
很难想出比当前叉子设计更好的叉子，而另一方面，你说为了想出有趣的想法，你必须尝试过更有趣的生活。
Yeah, but that’s where travel comes in, because when I started traveling, I started seeing stuff in other countries that you didn’t have in Europe for example, or America even.
是的，但这就是旅行的用武之地，因为当我开始旅行时，我开始看到其他国家的东西，例如欧洲甚至美国没有的东西。
34:15 If you go to Asia, dude, especially 10 years ago, nobody knew about this.
如果你去亚洲，伙计，尤其是十年前，没有人知道这一点。
The WeChats, all these apps that they already had before we had them, these everything apps.
微信，所有这些在我们拥有之前他们就已经拥有的应用程序，这些一切应用程序。
Right now Elon’s trying to make X this everything app like WeChat, same thing.
现在，Elon 正试图让 X 成为像微信一样的一切应用程序。
Indonesia or Thailand, you have one app that you can order food, or if you can order groceries, you can order massage, you can order car mechanic, anything you can think of is in the app, and that stuff, for example, that’s called arbitrage.
印度尼西亚或泰国，你有一个应用程序，你可以订购食物，或者如果你可以订购杂货，你可以订购按摩，你可以订购汽车修理工，你能想到的任何东西都在应用程序中，例如，这就是所谓的套利。
34:53 You can go back to your country and build that same app for your country for example.
例如，您可以返回您的国家/地区并为您的国家/地区构建相同的应用程序。
So, you start seeing problems, you start seeing solutions that other people already did in the rest of the world, and also traveling in general just gives you more problems, because travel is uncomfortable.
所以，你开始看到问题，你开始看到其他人在世界其他地方已经做过的解决方案，而且一般来说旅行只会给你带来更多问题，因为旅行很不舒服。
Airports are horrible, airplanes are not comfortable either.
机场很糟糕，飞机也不舒服。
There’s a lot of problems you start seeing, just getting out of your house.
当你刚走出家门时，你就会开始看到很多问题。
I mean, in a digital world, you can just go into different communities, and see what can be improved by-
我的意思是，在数字世界中，你可以进入不同的社区，看看可以通过以下方式改进什么：
Yes.
是的。
…
……
35:25 in that.
在那。
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊，是啊，是啊。
What specifically is your process of generating ideas?
您产生想法的具体过程是什么？
35:28 Do you do idea dumps?
你会转储创意吗？
Do you have a document where you just keep writing stuff?
你有一个可以让你不断写东西的文档吗？
Yeah, I used to have…
是的，我曾经有过……
35:35 Because when I wasn’t making money, I was trying to make this list of ideas to see…
因为当我不赚钱的时候，我试图列出这个想法清单来看看……
So I need to build…
所以我需要建立...
I was thinking statistically, “All right, I need to build all these things and one of these will work out probably.
我在统计上思考，“好吧，我需要构建所有这些东西，其中之一可能会成功。
So, I need to have a lot of things to try,” and I did that.
所以，我需要尝试很多事情。”我就这么做了。
Right now, I think because I already have money, I can do more things based on technology.
现在，我想因为我已经有钱了，我可以基于技术做更多的事情。
So for example, AI, when I found out about…
举例来说，人工智能，当我发现……
When Stable Diffusion came or ChatGPT and stuff, all these things were like…
当稳定扩散或 ChatGPT 之类的东西出现时，所有这些事情就像……
I didn’t start working with them, because I had a problem.
我没有开始与他们合作，因为我遇到了问题。
I had no problems, but I was very curious about technology, and I was playing with it, and figuring out…
我没有遇到任何问题，但我对技术非常好奇，我正在玩它，并弄清楚......
First, just playing with it, and then you find something like, “Okay, Stable Diffusion generates houses very beautiful and interiors.”
首先，只是玩玩它，然后你会发现类似的东西，“好吧，稳定扩散会生成非常漂亮的房屋和内饰。”
So, it’s less about problem solving, it’s more about the possibilities of new things you can create.
因此，解决问题不再是问题，而是创造新事物的可能性。
Yeah, but that’s very risky, because that’s the famous solution trying to find a problem, and usually it doesn’t work, and that’s very common with startup funnels, I think.
是的，但这是非常危险的，因为这是试图找到问题的著名解决方案，但通常它不起作用，我认为这在启动渠道中很常见。
36:25 They have tech, but actually people don’t need to tech, right?
他们有技术，但实际上人们不需要技术，对吗？
Can you actually explain?
你真的能解释一下吗？
36:38 It’d be cool to talk about some of the stuff you’ve created.
谈论您创建的一些东西会很酷。
Can you explain the photoai.com?
你能解释一下 photoai.com 吗？
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
36:46 So, it’s like fire your photographer.
所以，这就像解雇你的摄影师一样。
The idea is that you don’t need a photographer anymore.
这个想法是你不再需要摄影师了。
You can train yourself as an AI model, and you can take as many photos as you want anywhere, in any clothes, with facial expressions, like happy, or sad, or poses, all this stuff.
你可以把自己训练成一个人工智能模型，你可以在任何地方、穿着任何衣服、用面部表情拍摄尽可能多的照片，比如快乐、悲伤、姿势等等。
So, how does it work?
那么，它是如何运作的呢？
37:02 You sent me a link to a gallery of ones done on me, which is-
你给我发了一个在我身上做的画廊的链接，这是-
Yeah, so on the left you have the prompts, the box.
是的，左边有提示框。
37:10 Yeah, so you can write…
是的，所以你可以写...
So, model is your model, this is Lex Fridman.
所以，模特就是你的模特，这是莱克斯·弗里德曼。
So, you can write model as a blah, blah, blah, whatever you want, then press the button, and it will take photos.
所以，你可以把模型写成blah，blah，blah，任何你想要的，然后按下按钮，它就会拍照。
It will take like one minute.
大约需要一分钟。
60 photos.
60 张照片。
37:21 What are you using for the hosting, for the compute?
您使用什么来进行托管和计算？
Replicate.
复制。
Okay.
好的。
Replicate.com.
复制.com。
37:25 They’re very, very good.
他们非常非常好。
Interface-wise, it’s cool that you’re showing how long it’s going to take.
就界面而言，你能展示它需要多长时间是很酷的。
37:29 This is amazing, so it’s taken a…
这太神奇了，所以花了……
I’m presuming you just loaded in a few pictures from the internet.
我假设您刚刚从互联网上加载了几张图片。
Yeah, so I went to Google Images, typed in Lex Fridman, I added like 10 or 20 images.
是的，所以我去了 Google 图片，用 Lex Fridman 输入，添加了大约 10 或 20 张图像。
37:37 You can open them in a gallery, and you can use your cursor to…
您可以在图库中打开它们，并且可以使用光标...
So, some don’t look like you.
所以，有些人看起来不像你。
So, the hit-and-miss rate is, I don’t know, say like 50/50 or something.
所以，我不知道，命中率是 50/50 之类的。
But when I was watching it [inaudible 00:37:55], it’s been getting better and better and better.
但当我观看它时 [听不清 00:37:55]，它变得越来越好。
It was very bad in the beginning.
一开始情况非常糟糕。
37:56 It was so bad, but still people signed up to it.
虽然情况很糟糕，但还是有人报名参加。
There’s two Lexes.
有两个 Lex。
38:03 It’s great.
这很棒。
It’s getting more and more sexual.
它变得越来越性感。
It’s making me very uncomfortable.
这让我很不舒服。
Man, but that’s the problem with these models.
伙计，但这就是这些模型的问题。
38:08 No, we need to talk about this, because the models in-
不，我们需要讨论这个，因为模型 -
Sure.
当然。
…
……
38:12 Stable Diffusion, so the photorealistic models that are fine-tuned, they were all trained on porn in the beginning, and it was a guy called Hassan.
稳定扩散，所以经过微调的真实感模型，他们一开始都是接受色情训练的，而且是一个叫哈桑的家伙。
So, I was trying to figure out how to do photorealistic AI photos and it was…
所以，我试图弄清楚如何制作逼真的人工智能照片，结果是……
Stable Diffusion by itself is not doing that well.
稳定扩散本身效果并不好。
The faces look all mangled, and it doesn’t have enough resolution or something to do that well, but I started seeing these base models, these fine-tuned models, and people would train on porn, and I would try them, and they would be very photorealistic.
这些脸看起来都被毁坏了，而且没有足够的分辨率或其他东西来做得很好，但我开始看到这些基本模型，这些经过微调的模型，人们会在色情片上进行训练，我会尝试它们，它们会非常逼真。
They would have bodies that actually made sense, like body anatomy, but if you look at the photorealistic models that people use now, there’s still core of porn there, like of naked people.
他们的身体实际上是有意义的，比如身体解剖学，但如果你看看人们现在使用的逼真模型，那里仍然有色情的核心，比如裸体的人。
So, I need to prompt out, and everybody needs to do this with AI startups, with imaging, you need to prompt out the naked stuff.
所以，我需要提示出来，每个人都需要对人工智能初创公司这样做，对于成像，你需要提示出赤裸裸的东西。
You need to put a naked [inaudible 00:39:00]-
你需要裸体 [听不清 00:39:00]-
You have to keep reminding the model, “You need to put clothes on the thing.”
你必须不断提醒模特，“你需要给这个东西穿上衣服。”
Yeah, don’t put naked, because it’s very risky.
是的，不要裸露，因为这样风险很大。
39:02 I have Google Vision that checks every photo before it’s shown to the user to check for [inaudible 00:39:09]-
我的 Google Vision 会在向用户显示照片之前检查每张照片以检查 [听不清 00:39:09]-
Like a nipple detector?
比如乳头探测器？
Yes.
是的。
[inaudible 00:39:11] detector.
[听不清 00:39:11] 探测器。
Because the journalists get very angry if they-
因为记者们会非常生气，如果他们——
If you sexualize-
如果你性化——
There was a journalist, I think ,that got angry that used this and it was like, “Oh, it showed a nipple,” because Google Vision didn’t detect it.
我想，有一位记者使用了这个，他很生气，就像，“哦，它显示了一个乳头，”因为谷歌视觉没有检测到它。
39:14 So, that’s like these kind of problems you need to deal with.
所以，这就像你需要处理的这类问题。
That’s what I’m talking about.
这就是我要说的。
This is with cats, but look at the cat face.
这是关于猫的，但看看猫的脸。
It’s also kind of mangled.
它也有点被破坏了。
I’m a little bit disturbed.
我有点不安。
You can zoom in on the cat if you want.
如果需要，您可以放大猫。
39:36 This is a very sad cat.
这是一只非常悲伤的猫。
It doesn’t have a nose.
它没有鼻子。
It doesn’t have a nose, wow.
它没有鼻子，哇。
Man, but this is the problem with AI startups, because they all act like it’s perfect, like this is groundbreaking, but it’s not perfect.
伙计，但这就是人工智能初创公司的问题，因为他们都表现得好像它是完美的，就像这是开创性的，但它并不完美。
39:44 It’s really bad half the time.
确实有一半时间很糟糕。
So, if I wanted to sort of update model as-
所以，如果我想将模型更新为-
Yeah, so you remove this stuff, and you write whatever you want, like in Thailand or something, or in Tokyo.
是的，所以你删除这些东西，你想写什么就写什么，比如在泰国什么的，或者在东京。
In Tokyo?
在东京？
Yeah.
是的。
And-
还有——
You could say like at night with neon lights.
你可以说就像晚上有霓虹灯一样。
40:07 You can add more detail to [inaudible 00:40:11]-
您可以添加更多详细信息 [听不清 00:40:11]-
I’ll go in Austin.
我会去奥斯汀。
40:11 Do you think it’ll know-
你认为它会知道吗-
Yeah, Austin-
是的，奥斯汀-
…
……
40:13 in Texas?
在德克萨斯州？
In Austin, Texas?
在德克萨斯州奥斯汀？
With cowboy hat?
带着牛仔帽？
In Texas, yeah.
在德克萨斯州，是的。
As a cowboy.
作为一名牛仔。
As a cowboy.
作为一名牛仔。
40:21 It’s going to go so towards the porn direction.
它将朝着色情方向发展。
It’s [inaudible 00:40:25]-
这是[听不清 00:40:25]-
Man, I hope not.
伙计，我希望不会。
40:25 It’s the end of my career.
这是我职业生涯的结束。
Or the beginning, it depends.
或者是开始，这取决于。
40:28 ” We can send you a push notification when your photos are done.” All right, cool.
“当您的照片完成后，我们可以向您发送推送通知。”好吧，酷。
Yeah, let’s see.
是的，让我们看看。
Oh, wow, so this whole interface you’ve built?
哦，哇，那么整个界面都是你构建的吗？
Yeah.
是的。
This is really well done.
这确实做得很好。
It’s all jQuery.
都是 jQuery。
40:40 So, I still use jQuery?
那么，我仍然使用 jQuery 吗？
Yes-
是的-
The only one?
唯一的一个？
…
……
40:42 still-
仍然——
After 10 years?
10年后？
…
……
40:43 to this day.
直到今天。
You’re not the only one.
你不是唯一的一个。
The web is PHP, the stack-
Web 是 PHP，堆栈是
It’s PHP and jQuery, yes, and SQLite.
是的，它是 PHP 和 jQuery，还有 SQLite。
You’re just one of the top performers from a programming perspective that are still openly talking about it, but everyone’s using PHP.
从编程角度来看，您只是仍在公开谈论它的最佳表现者之一，但每个人都在使用 PHP。
40:50 If you look, most of the web is still probably PHP and jQuery.
如果你仔细观察，你会发现大多数 Web 可能仍然是 PHP 和 jQuery。
I think 70%.
我认为是70%。
41:01 It’s because of WordPress, right?
这是因为 WordPress，对吗？
Because the blogs are-
因为博客是——
Yeah, that’s true.
是的，确实如此。
Yeah-
是啊-
That’s true.
确实如此。
I’m seeing a revival now.
我现在看到了复兴。
41:06 People are getting sick of frameworks.
人们已经厌倦了框架。
All the JavaScript frameworks are so…
所有的 JavaScript 框架都是如此......
What do you call it, like wieldy.
你怎么称呼它，就像挥舞一样。
It takes so much work to just maintain this code, and then it updates to a new version, you need to change everything.
仅仅维护这段代码就需要花费大量的工作，然后它更新到新版本，您需要更改所有内容。
PHP just stays the same and works.
PHP 保持不变并且可以工作。
Yeah.
是的。
41:23 Can you actually just speak to that stack?
你真的可以只和那个堆栈说话吗？
You build all your websites, apps, startups, projects, all of that with mostly vanilla HTML, JavaScript with jQuery, PHP, and SQLite.
您构建所有网站、应用程序、初创公司、项目，所有这些都主要使用普通 HTML、JavaScript 和 jQuery、PHP 和 SQLite。
So, that’s a really simple stack, and you get stuff done really fast with that.
所以，这是一个非常简单的堆栈，你可以用它快速完成工作。
Can you just speak to the philosophy behind that?
您能谈谈这背后的哲学吗？
I think it’s accidental, because that’s the thing I knew.
我认为这是偶然的，因为那是我所知道的。
41:47 I knew PHP, I knew HTML, CSS, because you make websites, and when my startups started taking off, I didn’t have time to…
我了解 PHP、HTML、CSS，因为你制作网站，当我的初创公司开始腾飞时，我没有时间……
I remember putting on my to-do list like, “Learn Node.js,” because it’s important to switch, because this obviously is much better language than PHP, and I never learned it.
我记得在我的待办事项列表中添加了“学习 Node.js”之类的内容，因为切换很重要，因为这显然是比 PHP 更好的语言，但我从未学过它。
I never did it, because I didn’t have time.
我从来没有这样做过，因为我没有时间。
These things were growing like this, and I was launching more projects, and I never had time.
这些事情就这样增长，我正在启动更多的项目，但我从来没有时间。
It’s like, “One day I’ll start coding properly,” and I never got to it.
就像，“有一天我会开始正确编码”，但我从未做到这一点。
I sometimes wonder if I need to learn that stuff.
有时我想知道我是否需要学习这些东西。
42:19 It’s still a to-do item for me to really learn Node.js or Flask or these kind of-
对我来说，真正学习 Node.js 或 Flask 之类的仍然是一个待办事项——
React [inaudible 00:42:28]-
反应 [听不清 00:42:28]-
Yeah, React, and it feels like a responsible software engineer should know how to use these, but you can get stuff done so fast with vanilla versions of stuff.
是的，React，感觉一个负责任的软件工程师应该知道如何使用这些，但是你可以使用普通版本的东西快速完成工作。
Yeah, it’s like software developers if you want to get a job, and there’s people making stuff, like startups, and if you want to be entrepreneur, probably you maybe shouldn’t, right?
是的，这就像软件开发人员，如果你想找到一份工作，有人在制造东西，比如初创公司，如果你想成为企业家，也许你不应该，对吧？
I really want to measure performance and speed.
我真的想衡量性能和速度。
42:55 I think there’s a deep wisdom in that.
我认为这里面蕴藏着深刻的智慧。
I do think that frameworks and just constantly wanting to learn the new thing, this complicated way of software engineering gets in the way.
我确实认为框架和不断想要学习新事物的软件工程的复杂方式会成为障碍。
I’m not sure what to say about that, because definitely you shouldn’t build everything from just vanilla JavaScript or vanilla C for example, C++ when you’re building systems engineering is like…
我不知道该怎么说，因为你绝对不应该只用普通的 JavaScript 或普通的 C 来构建所有东西，例如，当你构建系统工程时，C++ 就像......
There’s a lot of benefits for a pointer safety, and all that kind of stuff.
指针安全有很多好处，诸如此类。
So I don’t know, but it just feels like you can get so much more stuff done if you don’t care about how you do it.
所以我不知道，但感觉如果你不关心如何做，你可以完成更多的事情。
Man, this is my most controversial take, I think, and maybe I’m wrong, but I feel like this frameworks now that raise money, they raise a lot of money.
伙计，我认为这是我最具争议性的观点，也许我是错的，但我觉得这个框架现在筹集了资金，他们筹集了很多钱。
43:33 They raise 50 million, 100 million, $200 million, and the idea is that you need to make the developers, and new developers, like when you’re 18 or 20 years old, get them to use this framework, and add a platform to it where the framework can…
他们筹集了 5000 万、1 亿、2 亿美元，想法是你需要让开发人员和新开发人员，就像你 18 或 20 岁的时候一样，让他们使用这个框架，并为其添加一个平台，框架可以......
It’s open source, but you probably should use the platform, which is paid to use it, and the cost of the platforms to host it are 1,000 times higher than just hosting it on a simple AWS server or VPS on DigitalOcean.
它是开源的，但您可能应该使用该平台，使用它需要付费，并且托管该平台的成本比仅托管在简单的 AWS 服务器或 DigitalOcean 上的 VPS 上高 1,000 倍。
So, there’s obviously a monetary incentive here.
所以，这里显然有金钱激励。
We want to get a lot of developers to use this technology, and then we need to charge them money, because they’re going to use it in startups, and then the startups can pay for the bills.
我们想让很多开发者使用这项技术，然后我们需要向他们收费，因为他们要在初创公司中使用它，然后初创公司可以支付账单。
44:25 It kind of destroys the information out there about learning to code, because they pay YouTubers, they pay developer influencers a big thing to…
这有点破坏了关于学习编码的信息，因为他们付钱给 YouTuber，他们付给开发者影响者一大笔钱……
And same thing what happens with nutrition and fitness or something, same thing happens in developing.
同样的事情发生在营养和健身或其他方面，同样的事情也发生在发育中。
They pay this influencer to promote this stuff, use it, make stuff with it, make demo products with it, and then a lot of people are like, “Wow, use this.” And I started noticing this, because when I would ship my stuff, people would ask me, “What are you using?” I would say, “Just PHP, jQuery.
他们付钱给这个有影响力的人来推广这个东西，使用它，用它制作东西，用它制作演示产品，然后很多人都会说，“哇，用这个。”我开始注意到这一点，因为当我运送我的东西时，人们会问我，“你在用什么？”我会说，“只有 PHP、jQuery。
Why does it matter?”
为什么这很重要？
44:56 And people would start attacking me like, “Why are you not using this new technology, this new framework, this new thing?” And I say, “I don’t know, because this PHP thing works, and I don’t really optimizing for anything.
人们会开始攻击我，比如“你为什么不使用这项新技术、新框架、新事物？”我说：“我不知道，因为 PHP 这个东西有效，而且我并没有真正优化任何东西。
It just works.” And I never understood why…
它就是有效的。”而我一直不明白为什么……
I understand there’s new technologies that are better and it should be improvement, but I’m very suspicious of money, just like lobbying.
我知道有更好的新技术，应该有所改进，但我对金钱非常怀疑，就像游说一样。
There’s money in this developer framework scene.
这个开发者框架场景里有钱。
There’s hundreds of millions that goes to ads or influencer or whatever.
有数亿美元用于广告或有影响力的人或其他什么。
It can’t all go to developers.
不可能全部都归开发商所有。
You don’t need so many developers for a framework, and it’s open source to make a lot of more money on these startups.
一个框架不需要那么多开发人员，而且它是开源的，可以在这些初创公司身上赚更多的钱。
So, that’s a really good perspective, but in addition to that is when you say better, it’s like, can we get some data on the better?
所以，这是一个非常好的观点，但除此之外，当你说更好时，我们可以得到一些关于更好的数据吗？
45:32 Because I want to know from the individual developer perspective, and then from a team of five, team of 10, team of 20 developers measure how productive they are in shipping features, how many bugs they create, how many security holes result-
因为我想从个人开发人员的角度了解，然后从 5 人团队、10 人团队、20 人团队开发人员的角度来衡量他们在发布功能方面的生产力、他们创建了多少错误、导致了多少安全漏洞 -
PHP was not good with security for a while, but now it’s [inaudible 00:46:03]-
有一段时间，PHP 的安全性并不好，但现在 [音频不清晰 00:46:03]-
In theory, is it though?
理论上是这样吗？
Now it’s good.
现在好了。
No, now as you’re saying it, I want to know if that’s true, because PHP was just the majority of websites on the internet.
不，现在正如你所说，我想知道这是否属实，因为 PHP 是互联网上的大多数网站。
It could be true.
这可能是真的。
Is it just overrepresented?
是否只是比例过高？
46:16 Same with WordPress.
与 WordPress 相同。
Yeah.
是的。
Yes, there’s a reputation that WordPress has a gigantic number of security holes.
是的，众所周知，WordPress 存在大量安全漏洞。
46:19 I don’t know if that’s true.
我不知道这是不是真的。
I know it gets attacked a lot, because it’s so popular.
我知道它受到了很多攻击，因为它太受欢迎了。
It definitely does have security holes, but maybe a lot of other systems have security holes as well.
它确实存在安全漏洞，但也许许多其他系统也存在安全漏洞。
Anyway, I just sort of questioning the conventional wisdom that keeps wanting to push software engineers towards frameworks, towards complex, like super complicated software engineering approaches that stretch out the time it takes to actually build a thing.
不管怎样，我只是对传统智慧提出质疑，这种传统智慧一直希望将软件工程师推向框架，走向复杂，比如超级复杂的软件工程方法，这些方法延长了实际构建一个东西所需的时间。
Man, 100%, and it’s the same thing with big corporations…
伙计，100%，大公司也是如此……
46:50 80% of the people don’t do anything.
80%的人什么都不做。
It’s not efficient, and if your benchmark is people building stuff that actually gets done.
如果你的基准是人们构建实际完成的东西，那么它效率不高。
And for society, if we want to save time, we should probably use the technology that’s simple, that’s pragmatic, that works, that’s not overly complicated, it doesn’t make your life like a living hell.
对于社会来说，如果我们想节省时间，我们可能应该使用简单、实用、有效、不太复杂、不会让你的生活像活生生的地狱的技术。
And use a framework when it obviously solves a direct problem that you-
当框架明显解决了您所面临的直接问题时，请使用它-
Yeah, of course.
是的，当然。
47:23 I’m not saying you should code without a framework.
我并不是说你应该在没有框架的情况下编码。
You should use whatever you want, but yeah, I think it’s suspicious.
你应该使用任何你想要的东西，但是，是的，我认为这是可疑的。
And I think [inaudible 00:47:32], when I talk about it on Twitter, there’s this army comes out, there’s these framework armies.
我认为 [听不清 00:47:32]，当我在 Twitter 上谈论它时，就会出现这支军队，有这些框架军队。
Man, something my gut tells me-
伙计，我的直觉告诉我——
I want to ask the framework army, what have they built this week?
我想问框架大军，这周他们建造了什么？
47:40 It’s the Elon question, “What did you do this week?”
这是埃隆的问题，“你这周做了什么？”
Yeah, did you make money with it?
是啊，你赚到钱了吗？
47:45 Did you charge users?
向用户收费了吗？
Is it a real business?
这是真正的生意吗？
And yeah.
是的。
So going back to the cowboy, first of all-
回到牛仔，首先——
Some don’t look like you, right?
有些看起来不像你，对吧？
47:54 But some do.
但有些人这样做。
Every aspect of this is pretty incredible.
这的每个方面都非常令人难以置信。
47:56 I’m also just looking at the interface.
我也只是看界面而已。
It’s really well done.
确实做得很好。
So, this is all just jQuery, and this is really well done.
所以，这只是 jQuery，而且做得非常好。
So, take me through the journey of Photo AI.
那么，请带我回顾一下 Photo AI 的旅程。
Most of the world doesn’t know much about Stable Diffusion or any of the generative AI stuff.
世界上大多数人对稳定扩散或任何生成人工智能的东西了解不多。
So you’re thinking, “Okay, how can I build cool stuff with this?” What was the origin story of Photo AI?
所以你在想，“好吧，我怎样才能用这个构建很酷的东西呢？” Photo AI 的起源故事是什么？
I think it started, because Stable Diffusion came out.
我认为它开始了，因为稳定扩散出现了。
48:21 So Stable Diffusion like this…
像这样稳定的扩散……
The first generative image AI model, and I started playing with it.
第一个生成图像人工智能模型，我开始使用它。
You could install on your Mac…
您可以在 Mac 上安装...
Somebody forked it and made it work for MacBooks.
有人将其分叉并使其适用于 MacBook。
So, I downloaded it and cloned the repo, and started using it to generate images, and it was amazing.
因此，我下载了它并克隆了存储库，并开始使用它来生成图像，这真是太神奇了。
I found it on Twitter, because you see things happen on Twitter, and I would post what I was making on Twitter as well, and you could make any image.
我在 Twitter 上找到了它，因为你可以在 Twitter 上看到发生的事情，我也会在 Twitter 上发布我正在制作的内容，你可以制作任何图像。
48:50 So, essentially you write a prompt, and then it generates a photo of that or image of that in any style.
因此，本质上，您编写一个提示，然后它会生成任何风格的该提示的照片或图像。
They would use artist names to make like a Picasso kind of style and stuff, and I was trying to see, what is it good at?
他们会用艺术家的名字来制作类似毕加索的风格和东西，我想看看，它擅长什么？
Is it good at people?
对人好吗？
No, it’s really bad at people, but it was good at houses, so architecture for example, I would generate architecture houses.
不，它对人真的很不好，但它对房子很擅长，所以以建筑为例，我会生成建筑房屋。
So, I made a website called thishousedoesnotexist.org, and it generated…
所以，我创建了一个名为 thishousedoesnotexist.org 的网站，它生成了……
They called like house porn at that one.
他们打电话给那个就像家庭色情片一样。
Houseporn is like a subreddit, and this was Stable Diffusion, like the first version.
Houseporn 就像一个 Reddit 子版块，这是稳定扩散，就像第一个版本一样。
So it looks really…
所以看起来真的是……
You can click for another photo.
您可以点击查看另一张照片。
So, it generates all these non-existing houses.
因此，它产生了所有这些不存在的房屋。
It is house porn.
这是家庭色情片。
But it looked kind of good, especially back then.
但看起来还不错，尤其是在当时。
It looks really good.
看起来真的很好。
Now, things look much better.
现在，情况看起来好多了。
That’s really, really well done, wow.
真的做得非常非常好，哇。
And it also generates a description.
它还生成一个描述。
And you can upvote…
并且您可以投票...
49:50 Is it nice?
好看吗？
Upvote it.
点赞吧。
Yeah.
是的。
Man, there’s so much to talk to you about.
伙计，有很多话要和你说。
49:52 The choices here is really well done.
这里的选择确实做得很好。
This is very scrappy.
这是非常斗志旺盛的。
49:57 In the bottom, there’s like a ranking of the most upvoted houses.
在底部，有一个最受支持的房子的排名。
So, these are the top voted, and if you go to all time, you see quite beautiful ones.
所以，这些都是投票最高的，如果你去所有的时间，你会看到非常漂亮的。
Yeah.
是的。
So this one is my favorite, the number one.
所以这个是我最喜欢的，排名第一的。
It’s kind of like a…
这有点像……
How is this not more popular?
这怎么不更受欢迎呢？
It was really popular for a while, but then people got so bored of it.
它确实流行了一段时间，但后来人们对此感到厌倦。
50:12 I think, because I was getting bored of it, too, just continuous house porn, everything starts looking the same, but then I saw it was really good at interior, so I pivoted to interiorai.com, where I tried to upload first generate interior designs, and then I tried to do…
我想，因为我也厌倦了它，只是连续的房屋色情，一切开始看起来都一样，但后来我发现它真的很擅长室内装饰，所以我转向了 Interiorai.com，在那里我尝试首先上传生成室内设计，然后我尝试做......
There was a new technology called image-to-image where you can input an image, like a photo, and it would kind of modify the thing.
有一种称为“图像到图像”的新技术，您可以输入图像（例如照片），并且它会修改事物。
So, you see it looks almost the same as Photo AI.
所以，你看它看起来和 Photo AI 几乎一样。
It’s the same code essentially.
本质上是相同的代码。
Nice.
好的。
So, I would upload a photo of my interior where I lived, and I would ask like, “Change this into, I don’t know, maximalist design,” and it worked and it worked really well.
所以，我会上传一张我住的室内的照片，然后我会问，“把它改成，我不知道，极简主义设计，”它起作用了，而且效果非常好。
50:47 So I was like, “Okay, this is a startup,” because obviously interior design AI, and nobody’s doing that yet.
所以我想，“好吧，这是一家初创公司”，因为显然是室内设计人工智能，但还没有人这样做。
So, I launched this and I was successful and within a week, made 10K, 20K a month, and now still makes like 40K, 50K a month, and it’s been like two years.
所以，我推出了这个，并取得了成功，一周之内，每月赚 10K、20K，现在每月仍然赚 40K、50K，已经过去两年了。
So then I was like, “How can I improve this interior design?
然后我想，“我怎样才能改进这个室内设计？
I need to start learning fine-tuning.”
我需要开始学习微调。”
51:18 And fine-tuning is where you have this existing AI model and you fine tune it on the specific goal you wanted to do.
微调是指你拥有现有的人工智能模型，并根据你想要实现的特定目标对其进行微调。
So, I would find really beautiful interior design, make a gallery, and train a new model that was very good at interior design, and it worked, and I used that as well.
所以，我会找到非常漂亮的室内设计，制作一个画廊，并训练一个非常擅长室内设计的新模型，它很有效，我也使用了它。
And then for fun, I uploaded photos of myself, and here’s where it happened, and to train myself.
然后为了好玩，我上传了自己的照片，这就是事情发生的地方，并训练自己。
And this would never work, obviously, and it worked, and actually it started understanding me as a concept.
显然，这永远不会起作用，但它起作用了，实际上它开始将我理解为一个概念。
So, my face worked and you could do different styles, like me as a…
所以，我的脸很有效，你可以做不同的风格，就像我一样……
Very cheesy, medieval warrior, all this stuff.
非常俗气的中世纪武士，所有这些东西。
So I was like, “This is another startup.” So, now I did avatarai.me.
所以我想，“这是另一家初创公司。”所以，现在我做了 avatarai.me。
I couldn’t get the dot com, and this was [inaudible 00:52:01]-
我无法获取 .com，这是 [听不清 00:52:01]-
Is it still up?
还起来吗？
Yeah, avatarai.me.
是的，avatarai.me。
52:03 Well, now it’s forwards to Photo AI, because it pivoted.
好吧，现在它转向了 Photo AI，因为它发生了转变。
Got it.
知道了。
But this was more like cheesy thing, so this is very interesting, because this went so viral.
但这更像是俗气的事情，所以这非常有趣，因为这非常流行。
52:07 It made I think like 150K in a week or something, so most money I ever made.
这让我觉得一周赚了 15 万左右，这是我赚过的最多的钱。
This is very interesting.
这很有趣。
The big VC companies, like Lensa, which are much better at iOS and stuff than me, I didn’t have iOS app, they quickly build an iOS app that does the same, and they found technology, and it’s all open technology, so it’s good, and I think they made like $30 million with it.
像Lensa这样的大型风险投资公司，在iOS和其他方面比我好得多，我没有iOS应用程序，他们很快构建了一个具有相同功能的iOS应用程序，他们发现了技术，而且都是开放技术，所以这很好，我认为他们用它赚了大约3000万美元。
They became the top grossing app after that, and-
此后，它们成为最畅销的应用程序，并且-
How do you feel about that?
你对此有何感想？
I think it’s amazing, honestly, and it’s not like-
老实说，我觉得这很神奇，而且不像——
You didn’t have a feeling like, “Oh, fuck.
你没有一种感觉，“哦，操。
52:44 [inaudible 00:52:45]-“
[听不清 00:52:45]-“
No, I was a little bit sad, because all my products would work out, and I never had real fierce competition, and now I have fierce competition from a very skilled high talent.
不，我有点难过，因为我所有的产品都会成功，而我从来没有遇到过真正激烈的竞争，现在我面临着来自技术精湛的高素质人才的激烈竞争。
52:45 I was developer studio or something, and they already had an app.
我是开发工作室之类的，他们已经有一个应用程序了。
They had an app in the app store for I think retouching your face or something, so they were very smart.
他们在应用程序商店中有一个应用程序，我认为可以修饰你的脸或其他东西，所以他们非常聪明。
They add these avatars to there, it’s a feature.
他们将这些头像添加到那里，这是一个功能。
They had the users, they do a push notification to everybody who have these avatars.
他们拥有用户，他们向拥有这些头像的每个人发送推送通知。
Man, I think they made so much money, and I think they did a really great job, and I also made a lot of money with it, but I quickly realized it wasn’t my thing, because it was so cheesy.
伙计，我认为他们赚了很多钱，我认为他们做得非常出色，我也赚了很多钱，但我很快意识到这不是我的事，因为它太俗气了。
It was like kitsch.
这就像媚俗。
It’s kind like me as a Barbie or me as a…
这就像我作为芭比娃娃或我作为......
It was too cheesy.
太俗气了。
53:29 I wanted to go for, what’s a real problem we can solve?
我想知道我们能解决的真正问题是什么？
This is going to be a hype, this going to be…
这将是一场炒作，这将是……
And it was a hype, these avatars.
这些化身是一种炒作。
It’s like, “Let’s do real photography.
就像，“让我们进行真正的摄影。
How can you make people look really photorealistic?” And it was difficult, and that’s why these avatars worked, because they were all in a cheesy Picasso style, and art is easy, because you interpret…
你怎样才能让人们看起来非常逼真呢？”这很困难，这就是这些化身起作用的原因，因为它们都是俗气的毕加索风格，而艺术很容易，因为你解释......
All the problems that AI has with your face are artistic if you call it Picasso, but if you make a real photo, all the problems of your face, you look wrong.
人工智能在你脸上的所有问题，如果你称之为毕加索，都是艺术的，但如果你拍一张真实的照片，你脸上的所有问题，你看起来都是错的。
So, I started making Photo AI, which was a pivot of it where it was like a photo studio where you could take photos without actually needing a photographer, needing a studio.
所以，我开始制作照片人工智能，这是它的一个支点，它就像一个照相馆，你可以在那里拍照，而不需要摄影师，需要一个工作室。
You just type it, and I’ve been working on it for the last year.
你只需输入它，我去年就一直在研究它。
Yeah, it’s really incredible.
是的，这确实令人难以置信。
54:14 That journey is really incredible.
那段旅程真是不可思议。
Let’s go to the beginning of Photo AI, though, because I remember seeing a lot of really hilarious photos.
不过，让我们从照片人工智能开始吧，因为我记得看到过很多非常搞笑的照片。
I think you were using yourself as a case study, right?
我认为您正在以自己作为案例研究，对吧？
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, so there’s a tweet here, “Sold $100,000 in AI-generated avatars.”
是的，这里有一条推文，“人工智能生成的头像售价 10 万美元。”
Yeah, and it’s a lot.
是的，而且很多。
54:36 It’s a lot for anybody.
这对任何人来说都意义重大。
It’s a lot for me making 10K a day on this.
这对我来说每天赚 10K 已经很了不起了。
That’s amazing.
太棒了。
54:42 That’s amazing.
太棒了。
And then the [inaudible 00:54:48] tweet.
然后是 [听不清 00:54:48] 推文。
54:46 That’s the launch tweet, and then before there is the me hacking on it.
这是发布推文，然后是我对它的黑客攻击。
Oh, I see.
我懂了。
54:53 Okay, so October 26th, 2022.
好的，2022 年 10 月 26 日。
Yeah.
是的。
” I trained an ML model on my face…”
“我在我的脸上训练了一个 ML 模型......”
Because my eyes are quite far apart, I learned when I did YouTube, I would put my DJ photo, my mixture, and people would say I look like a hammerhead shark.
因为我的眼睛距离很远，我在做 YouTube 时了解到，我会放我的 DJ 照片、我的混合物，人们会说我看起来像锤头鲨。
55:05 It was like the top comment, so then I realized my eyes are far apart.
就像上面的评论一样，所以我意识到我的眼睛距离很远。
Yeah, the internet helps you figure out what you look like.
是的，互联网可以帮助你了解自己的样子。
Yeah, it helps you realize how you look.
是的，它可以帮助您了解自己的外表。
Boy, do I love the internet.
男孩，我喜欢互联网吗？
That’s a thirst trap.
这是一个口渴陷阱。
Well, what is…
嗯，什么是……
55:26 Is this…
这是……
Wait.
等等。
It’s water from the waterfall, but the waterfall is in the back.
是瀑布的水，不过瀑布在后面。
55:27 So, what’s going on?
那么，这是怎么回事？
How much of this is real?
这其中有多少是真实的？
It’s all AI.
这都是人工智能。
It’s all AI?
都是人工智能吗？
Yeah.
是的。
That’s pretty good though, for the early days.
不过，对于早期来说，这已经相当不错了。
Exactly, but this was hit or miss, so you had to do a lot of curation, because 99% of it was bad.
确实如此，但这是偶然的，所以你必须做很多策划，因为 99% 都是糟糕的。
55:40 So, these are the photos I uploaded.
所以，这些是我上传的照片。
How many photos did you use?
你用了多少张照片？
55:47 “Only these.
“只有这些。
I’ll try more up-to-date pick later.” Are these the only photos you uploaded?
稍后我会尝试更多最新的选择。”这些是您上传的唯一照片吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Wow.
哇。
55:55 Wow, okay, so you were learning all this super quickly.
哇，好吧，所以你学得非常快。
What are some interesting details you remember from that time for what you had to figure out to make it work?
从那时起，您还记得哪些有趣的细节，以及您必须弄清楚什么才能使其发挥作用？
And for people just listening, he uploaded just a handful of photos that don’t really have a good capture of the face and he’s able to [inaudible 00:56:16]-
对于那些只是倾听的人来说，他只上传了几张照片，这些照片并没有很好地捕捉到脸部，但他能够[听不清 00:56:16]-
I think it’s cropped.
我认为它被裁剪了。
56:16 It’s like a crop by the layout, but they’re square photos, so they’re 512×512, because that’s Stable Diffusion.
从布局上看，这就像裁剪，但它们是方形照片，所以它们是 512×512，因为这是稳定扩散。
But nevertheless, not great capture of the face.
但尽管如此，脸部捕捉得并不好。
56:24 It’s not like a collection of several hundred photos that are 360 [inaudible 00:56:34]-
它不像是数百张 360 度全景照片的集合 [听不清 00:56:34]-
Exactly, I would imagine that, too, when I started.
确实，当我开始时，我也会这样想。
56:34 I was like, “Oh, this must be some 3D scan technology,” right?
我当时想，“哦，这一定是某种 3D 扫描技术，”对吧？
Yeah.
是的。
So, I think the cool thing with AI, it trains the concept of you.
所以，我认为人工智能最酷的一点是它可以训练你的概念。
56:39 So, it’s literally learning just like any AI model learns.
所以，它实际上是在学习，就像任何人工智能模型一样。
It learns how you look, so I did this and then I was getting DMs, like Telegram messages like, “How can I do the same thing?
它了解你的外表，所以我这样做了，然后我收到了 DM，比如 Telegram 消息，“我怎样才能做同样的事情？
I want these photos, my girlfriend wants these photos.” So I was like, “Okay, this is obviously a business,” but I didn’t have time to code it, make a whole app about it.
我想要这些照片，我女朋友想要这些照片。”所以我想，“好吧，这显然是一门生意，”但我没有时间编写它，制作一个完整的应用程序。
So, I made an HTML page, registered a domain name, and this not even…
所以，我制作了一个 HTML 页面，注册了一个域名，这甚至……
It was a Stripe payment link, which means you have literally a link to Stripe to pay, but there’s no code in the back.
这是一个 Stripe 付款链接，这意味着您实际上有一个 Stripe 付款链接，但后面没有代码。
So, all you know is you have customers that paid money.
所以，你所知道的就是你有付款的客户。
57:19 Then, I added a Typeform link.
然后，我添加了一个 Typeform 链接。
So, Typeform is a site where you can create your own input form, like Google Forms.
因此，Typeform 是一个您可以创建自己的输入表单的网站，例如 Google Forms。
So, they would get an email with a link to the Typeform or actually just a link after the checkout, and they could upload their photos, so enter their email, upload the photos, and I launched it, and I was like…
因此，他们会收到一封电子邮件，其中包含 Typeform 的链接，或者实际上只是结帐后的一个链接，他们可以上传照片，所以输入他们的电子邮件，上传照片，然后我启动了它，我就像……
Here, first still, so it’s October 2022, and I think within the first 24 hours was like…
在这里，首先，现在是 2022 年 10 月，我认为在最初的 24 小时内就像……
I’m not sure, it was like 1,000 customers or something, but the problem was I didn’t have code to automate this, so I had to do it manually.
我不确定，大概有 1,000 个客户之类的，但问题是我没有代码来自动执行此操作，所以我必须手动执行此操作。
So the first few hundred, I just literally took their photos, trained them, and then I would generate the photos with the prompts, and I had this text file with the prompt, and I would do everything manually, and it quickly became way too much, but that’s another constraint.
所以前几百个人，我只是拍了他们的照片，训练他们，然后我会根据提示生成照片，我有这个带有提示的文本文件，我会手动完成所有事情，它很快就变得太多了，但这是另一个限制。
I was forced to code something up that would do that, and that was essentially making it into a real website.
我被迫编写一些代码来做到这一点，这本质上就是将其变成一个真正的网站。
So, at first it was the Typeform and they uploaded it through the Typeform-
所以，一开始是 Typeform，他们通过 Typeform 上传-
It was a Stripe checkout Typeform.
这是一个 Stripe 结帐 Typeform。
An image, and then you were like, “That image is downloaded.” Did you write a script to export, like download [inaudible 00:58:21]-
一张图像，然后你会说，“该图像已下载。”您是否编写了导出脚本，例如下载 [听不清 00:58:21]-
No, it just downloaded the images myself.
不，它只是自己下载了图像。
58:21 It was an unzipped zip file.
这是一个解压缩的 zip 文件。
Literally, and you unzipped it-
从字面上看，你解压了它-
Yeah, unzip-
是的，解压缩-
One by-
一一
Yes, because, “Do things, don’t scale,” Paul Graham says, right?
是的，因为，“做事，不要扩大规模，”保罗·格雷厄姆说，对吗？
58:26 And then I would train it and I would email them the photos, I think from my personal email, say, “Here’s your avatars,” and they liked it.
然后我会训练它，然后通过电子邮件将照片发送给他们，我认为从我的个人电子邮件中可以看出，“这是你的头像”，他们喜欢它。
They were like, “Wow, it’s amazing.”
他们说：“哇，太棒了。”
You emailed them with your personal email-
您用您的个人电子邮件给他们发送了电子邮件-
Because they didn’t have an email address on this domain.
因为他们在这个域上没有电子邮件地址。
And this is like 100 people?
这好像是 100 人吧？
Yeah, and then you know who signed up?
是的，然后你知道谁报名了吗？
58:47 Man, I cannot say, but really famous people, really, really like billionaires, famous tech billionaires did it.
伙计，我不能说，但是真正的名人，真的非常像亿万富翁，著名的科技亿万富翁做到了。
And I was like, “Wow, this is crazy,” and I was so scared to message them, so I said, “Thanks so much for using my sites.” He’s like, “Yeah, amazing app, great work.” So, it’s like this is different than normal reaction.
我当时想，“哇，这太疯狂了”，我很害怕给他们发消息，所以我说，“非常感谢您使用我的网站。”他说，“是的，很棒的应用程序，很棒的工作。”所以，这似乎与正常反应不同。
It’s Bill Gates, isn’t it?
这是比尔·盖茨，不是吗？
I cannot say anything.
我什么也不能说。
Just like shirtless pics.
就像赤裸上身的照片一样。
GDPR, like privacy.
GDPR，就像隐私一样。
Right.
正确的。
European regulation.
欧洲监管。
59:15 I cannot share anything, but I was like, “Wow,” but this shows, so you make something, and then if it takes off very fast, it’s validated.
我无法分享任何东西，但我想，“哇”，但这表明，所以你做了一些东西，然后如果它飞得很快，它就得到了验证。
You’re like, “Here’s something that people really want.” But then also I thought, “This is hype.
你会说，“这是人们真正想要的东西。”但后来我也想：“这是炒作。
This is going to die down very fast,” and it did, because it’s too cheesy.”
这种情况很快就会消失，”而且确实如此，因为它太俗气了。”
But you have to automate the whole thing.
但你必须使整个事情自动化。
59:34 How’d you automate it?
你是如何实现自动化的？
So, what’s the AI component?
那么，AI 组件是什么？
How hard was that to figure out?
弄清楚这一点有多难？
Okay, so that’s actually in many ways the easiest thing, because there is all these platforms already back then.
好吧，这实际上在很多方面都是最简单的事情，因为当时已经有了所有这些平台。
59:41 There was platforms for fine tune Stable Diffusion.
有用于微调稳定扩散的平台。
Now, I use Replicate, back then I used different platforms, which was funny because that platform, when this thing took off, I would tweet…
现在，我使用复制，当时我使用不同的平台，这很有趣，因为那个平台，当这个东西起飞时，我会发推文......
Because I tweet always like how much money these websites make, and then…
因为我总是在推特上喜欢这些网站赚了多少钱，然后……
So, you call it vendor, right?
那么，您称其为供应商，对吗？
The platform that did the GPUs, they increased their price for training from $3 to $20 after they saw that I was making so much money.
做 GPU 的平台在看到我赚了这么多钱后，他们将训练价格从 3 美元提高到 20 美元。
So, immediately my profit is gone, because I was selling them for $30, and I was in a Slack with them saying, “What is this?
所以，我的利润立即消失了，因为我以 30 美元的价格出售它们，而我在 Slack 中与他们说，“这是什么？
Can you just put it back to $3?” They say, “Yeah, maybe in the future.
你能把它恢复到3美元吗？”他们说：“是的，也许将来。
We’re looking at it right now.” I’m like, “What are you talking about?
我们现在正在研究它。”我说：“你在说什么？
You just took all my money,” and they’re smart.
你刚刚拿走了我所有的钱”，他们很聪明。
Well, they’re not that smart, because you also have a large platform, and a lot of people respect you, so you can literally come out and say that, but they’re not-
嗯，他们没那么聪明，因为你也有一个很大的平台，很多人尊重你，所以你可以直接站出来这么说，但他们不是——
Yeah, but I think it’s kind of dirty to cancel a company or something.
是的，但我认为取消公司之类的东西有点肮脏。
1:00:33 I prefer just bringing my business elsewhere, but there was no elsewhere back then.
我更喜欢把我的业务带到其他地方，但当时没有其他地方。
Right.
对。
So, I started talking to other AI model, ML platforms.
因此，我开始与其他人工智能模型、机器学习平台交谈。
1:00:41 So, Replicate was one of those platforms, and I started DMing the CEO say, “Can you please create…” It’s called DreamBooth, this fine-tuning of yourself.
所以，Replicate 就是这些平台之一，我开始私信 CEO 说：“你能创建……”它被称为 DreamBooth，这是对你自己的微调。
“Can you add this to your site, because I need this, because I’m being price gauged?” And he said, “No, because it takes too long to run.
“你能把这个添加到你的网站吗，因为我需要这个，因为我正在接受价格评估？”他说：“不，因为跑的时间太长了。
It takes half an hour to run and we don’t have the GPUs for it.” I said, “Please, please, please.” And then after a week, he said, “We’re doing it, we’re launching this.” And then this company became…
运行需要半个小时，而且我们没有 GPU。”我说：“求你了，求你了，求你了。”一周后，他说：“我们正在做，我们正在推出这个。”然后这家公司就变成了……
It was not very famous company, it became very famous with this stuff, because suddenly everybody was like, “Oh, we can build similar avatar apps,” and everybody started building avatar apps and everybody started using Replicate for it, and that was from these early DMs with the CEO, like Ben Firsh, very nice guy.
这不是很有名的公司，它因这些东西而变得非常出名，因为突然每个人都说，“哦，我们可以构建类似的头像应用程序，”每个人都开始构建头像应用程序，每个人都开始使用 Replicate，这是来自这些早期与 CEO 的 DM，比如 Ben Firsh，非常好的人。
And he was like…
而他就像……
They never price-gauged me, they never treated me bad, they always been very nice.
他们从不衡量我的价格，他们从来没有对我不好，他们总是很好。
It’s a very cool company.
这是一家非常酷的公司。
So, you can run any ML model, any AI model, LLMs, you can run on here.
因此，您可以运行任何 ML 模型、任何 AI 模型、LLM，您都可以在这里运行。
And you can scale-
你可以扩展-
Yes, they scale.
是的，它们会扩展。
1:01:37 Yeah, yeah, and I mean you can do now, you can click on the model and just run it already.
是的，是的，我的意思是你现在就可以，你可以单击模型并运行它。
It’s like super easy.
这就像超级简单。
You log on with GitHub-
你用 GitHub 登录-
That’s great.
太好了。
And by running it on the website, then you can automate with the API.
通过在网站上运行它，您就可以使用 API 实现自动化。
1:01:45 You can make a website that runs the model.
您可以制作一个运行该模型的网站。
Generate images, generate text, generate video, generate music, generate speech-
生成图像、生成文本、生成视频、生成音乐、生成语音-
Video, like [inaudible 01:01:55]-
视频，例如 [听不清 01:01:55]-
…
……
1:01:54 fine tune models.
微调模型。
They do anything, yeah.
他们做任何事，是的。
1:01:55 It’s a very cool company.
这是一家非常酷的公司。
Nice, and you’re growing with them essentially.
很好，你基本上是在和他们一起成长。
1:01:58 They grew because of you, because it’s a big use case.
他们因为你而成长，因为这是一个很大的用例。
Yeah, the website even looks weird now.
是的，这个网站现在看起来甚至很奇怪。
1:02:03 It started as a machine learning platform that was like…
它最初是一个机器学习平台，就像……
I didn’t even understand what it did.
我什至不明白它做了什么。
It was just too ML.
这实在是太机器学习了。
You would understand, because you’re in the ML world.
你会理解的，因为你身处机器学习世界。
I wouldn’t understand it.
我不明白。
Now, it’s newb friendly.
现在，它对新手很友好。
Yeah, exactly, and I didn’t know how it worked, but I knew that they could probably do this and they did it.
是的，确实如此，我不知道它是如何运作的，但我知道他们可能可以做到这一点，而且他们做到了。
1:02:17 They built the models and now I use them for everything, and we trained, I think now like 36, 000 people already.
他们建立了模型，现在我用它们来做所有事情，我们培训了，我想现在已经有 36, 000 人了。
But is there some tricks to fine-tuning to the collection of photos that are provided?
但是是否有一些技巧可以对所提供的照片集进行微调？
1:02:32 How do you-
你怎么-
Yes, man, there’s so many hacks.
是的，伙计，有很多黑客。
The hacks, yeah.
黑客，是的。
It’s like 100 hacks to make it work.
需要 100 次修改才能让它发挥作用。
What are some interesting-
有哪些有趣的——
I’m giving my secrets now.
我现在就透露我的秘密。
Well, not the secrets, but the more insights maybe about the human face and the human body.
好吧，不是秘密，而是关于人脸和人体的更多见解。
1:02:44 What kind of stuff gets messed up lot?
什么样的东西会变得很混乱？
I think people…
我认为人们...
1:02:53 Well, man, that’s another thing, people don’t know how they look.
好吧，伙计，那是另一回事，人们不知道自己看起来怎么样。
So, they generate photos of themselves and then they say, “Ah, it doesn’t look like me,” but you can check the training photos, it does look like you, but you don’t know how you look.
所以，他们生成自己的照片，然后他们说，“啊，它看起来不像我，”但是你可以检查训练照片，它确实看起来像你，但你不知道你看起来怎么样。
So, there’s a face dysmorphia of yourself that you have no idea how you look.
所以，你自己有一种面部畸形，你不知道自己长什么样。
Yeah, that’s hilarious.
是的，这太搞笑了。
1:03:12 I mean, I’ve got…
我的意思是，我有……
One of the least pleasant activities in my existence is having to listen to my voice and look at my face.
我一生中最不愉快的活动之一就是不得不听我的声音并看着我的脸。
So, I get to really have to come into terms with the reality of how I look and how I sound.
所以，我真的必须接受我的外表和声音的现实。
Everybody, but-
大家，但是——
People often don’t, right?
人们常常不这样做，对吗？
Really?
真的吗？
You have a distorted view perspective.
你的视角是扭曲的。
I would make a selfie how I think I look that’s nice, other people think that’s not nice, but then they make a photo of me.
我会拍一张我认为自己看起来不错的自拍照，其他人认为这不太好，但然后他们会给我拍一张照片。
1:03:35 I’m like, “This is super ugly.” But then they’re like, “No, that’s how you look, and you look nice.” So, how other people see you is nice.
我想，“这太丑了。”但他们会说，“不，这就是你的样子，而且你看起来很好。”所以，别人怎么看你就是好的。
So, you need to ask other people to choose your photos.
所以，你需要请其他人来选择你的照片。
You shouldn’t choose them yourself, because you don’t know how you look.
你不应该自己选择它们，因为你不知道自己看起来怎么样。
Yeah, you don’t know what makes you interesting, what makes you attractive, or all this kind of stuff.
是的，你不知道什么让你变得有趣，什么让你有吸引力，或者所有这些东西。
Yeah, [inaudible 01:04:00]-
是的，[听不清 01:04:00]-
And a lot of us…
而我们很多人……
1:04:00 This is a dark aspect of psychology, we focus on some-
这是心理学的阴暗面，我们关注一些——
And a lot of us, this is a dark aspect of psychology, we focus on some small flaws.
对我们很多人来说，这是心理学的阴暗面，我们关注一些小缺陷。
This is why I hate plastic surgery, for example.
例如，这就是我讨厌整形手术的原因。
People try to remove the flaws when the flaws are the thing that makes you interesting and attractive.
当缺陷让你变得有趣和有吸引力时，人们就会试图消除这些缺陷。
I learned from the hammerhead shark eyes, the stuff about you that looks ugly to you, and it’s probably what makes you original, makes you nice, and people like it about you.
我从锤头鲨的眼睛中学到了，那些在你看来丑陋的东西，可能正是它让你变得独特，让你变得友善，让人们喜欢你。
1:04:12 And it’s not like, “Oh, my god.” And people notice it, people notice your hammerhead eyes, but it’s like, “That’s me.
这并不像“哦，天哪。”人们注意到了这一点，人们注意到了你锤头状的眼睛，但这就像，“那就是我。
That’s my face.
那是我的脸。
So, I love myself.” And that’s confidence, and confidence is attractive.
所以，我爱我自己。”这就是自信，而自信是有吸引力的。
Yes.
是的。
Right?
对吗？
Confidence is attractive.
自信是有吸引力的。
1:04:32 But yes, understanding what makes you beautiful.
但是，是的，了解什么让你变得美丽。
It’s the breaking of symmetry makes you beautiful, it’s the breaking of the average face makes you beautiful, all of that.
对称性的破坏使你美丽，平均脸型的破坏使你美丽，所有这些。
And obviously different from men and women of different ages, all this kind of stuff.
而且不同年龄段的男性和女性明显不同，所有这些东西。
Yeah, a hundred percent.
是的，百分之一百。
But underneath it all, the personality, all of that, when the face comes alive, that also is the thing that makes you beautiful.
但在这一切之下，个性，所有这一切，当脸变得生动时，这也是让你美丽的东西。
1:04:47 But anyway, you have to figure all that out with AI.
但无论如何，你必须用人工智能来解决这一切。
Yeah.
是的。
1:04:58 One thing that worked was, people would upload full body photos of themselves, so I would crop the face, right?
有效的一件事是，人们会上传自己的全身照片，所以我会裁剪脸部，对吗？
Then the model knew better that we’re training mostly the face here.
然后模型更清楚我们在这里训练的主要是脸部。
But then I started losing resemblance of the body ’cause some people are skinny, some people are muscular, whatever.
但后来我开始失去身体的相似性，因为有些人很瘦，有些人很肌肉，等等。
So, you want to have that too.
所以，你也想拥有它。
So, now, I mix full body photos in the training with face photos, face crops, and it’s all automatic.
所以，现在，我在训练中将全身照片与脸部照片、脸部裁剪混合在一起，而且这一切都是自动的。
And I know that other people, they use, again, AI models to detect what are the best photos in this training set and then train on those.
我知道其他人再次使用人工智能模型来检测该训练集中哪些是最好的照片，然后对这些照片进行训练。
It’s all about training data, and it’s with everything in AI, how good your training data is, in many ways, more important than how many steps you train for, like how many months, or whatever, with these GPUs.
这一切都与训练数据有关，并且与人工智能中的一切有关，在很多方面，训练数据的好坏比使用这些 GPU 训练的步骤数（例如几个月等）更重要。
The goals.
目标。
Do you have any guidelines for people of how to get good data, how to give good data to fine tune on?
对于如何获取好的数据、如何提供好的数据进行微调，您有什么指导方针吗？
The photos should be diverse.
照片应该是多样化的。
1:05:48 So, for example, if I only upload photos with a brown shirt or green shirts, the model will think that I’m training the green shirts.
因此，例如，如果我只上传棕色衬衫或绿色衬衫的照片，模型会认为我正在训练绿色衬衫。
So, the things that are the same every photo are the concepts that are trained.
所以，每张照片中相同的东西就是训练出来的概念。
What you want is your face to be the concept that’s trained and everything else to be diverse different.
你想要的是你的脸是经过训练的概念，而其他一切都是不同的。
So, diverse lighting as well.
因此，照明也多种多样。
1:06:10 Diverse everything.
一切都多样化。
Yeah, outside, inside.
是的，外面，里面。
1:06:12 But there’s no, this is the problem, there’s no manual for this.
但这不，这就是问题所在，没有这方面的手册。
And nobody knew.
没有人知道。
We were all just, especially two years ago, we’re all hacking, trying to test anything, anything you can think of.
我们都只是，尤其是两年前，我们都在黑客攻击，试图测试任何你能想到的东西。
And it’s frustrating.
这很令人沮丧。
It’s one of the most frustrating and also fun and challenging things to do because with AI, because it’s a black box.
对于人工智能来说，这是最令人沮丧、也是最有趣、最具挑战性的事情之一，因为它是一个黑匣子。
And Karpathy, I think, says this, “We don’t really know how this thing works, but it does something, but nobody really knows why.” We cannot look into the model of an LLM, what is actually in there.
我认为卡帕蒂是这么说的：“我们真的不知道这东西是如何工作的，但它确实有作用，但没有人真正知道为什么。”我们无法研究法学硕士的模型，了解其中的实际内容。
We just know it’s a treaty matrix of numbers, right?
我们只知道这是一个数字条约矩阵，对吗？
So, it’s very frustrating because some things that would be, you think they’re obvious that they will improve things, will make them worse.
所以，这是非常令人沮丧的，因为有些事情，你认为它们显然会改善事情，但会让事情变得更糟。
And there’s so many parameters you can tweak.
并且有很多参数可以调整。
So, you’re testing everything to improve things.
所以，你正在测试一切以改进事情。
I mean there’s a whole field now of mechanistic interpretability that studies that tries to figure out, tries to break things apart and understand how it works.
我的意思是，现在有一整套机械可解释性领域的研究试图弄清楚、试图分解事物并理解它是如何运作的。
1:07:04 But there’s also the data side and the actual consumer-facing product side of figuring out how you get it to generate a thing that’s beautiful or interesting or naturalistic, all that kind of stuff.
但还有数据方面和实际面向消费者的产品方面，即弄清楚如何让它生成美丽的、有趣的或自然的东西，诸如此类的东西。
And you’re at the forefront of figuring that out about the human face.
而您处于研究人脸这一问题的最前沿。
And humans really care about the human face.
人类确实很关心人的面子。
In very vain.
非常徒劳。
1:07:30 Like me, I want to look good in your podcast, for example.
例如，像我一样，我想在你的播客中看起来不错。
Yeah, for sure.
是的，当然。
And then one of the things actually would love to rigorously use photo AI, because for the thumbnails, I take portraits of people.
其中一件事实际上是喜欢严格使用照片人工智能，因为对于缩略图，我拍摄人物肖像。
1:07:36 I don’t know shit about photography.
我对摄影一窍不通。
I basically used your approach for photography like Googled, “How do you take photographs?
我基本上使用了你的摄影方法，比如谷歌搜索，“你如何拍照？
Camera, lighting.” And also it’s tough because maybe you could speak to this also, but with photography, no offense to any, they’re true artists, great photographers, but people take themselves way too seriously.
相机、灯光。”这也很困难，因为也许你也可以谈论这一点，但对于摄影，无意冒犯任何人，他们是真正的艺术家，伟大的摄影师，但人们太认真地对待自己。
Think you need a whole lot of equipment.
认为您需要大量设备。
You definitely don’t want one light, you need five lights…
你肯定不需要一盏灯，你需要五盏灯......
Man, I know.
伙计，我知道。
And you have to have the lenses.
而且你必须有镜头。
1:08:19 I talked to a guy, an expert of shaping the sound in a room because I was thinking, “I’m going to do a podcast studio, whatever.
我和一个在房间里塑造声音的专家交谈过，因为我在想，“我要做一个播客工作室，无论如何。
I should probably do a sound treatment on the room.” And when he showed up and analyzed the room, he thought everything I was doing was horrible.
我或许应该对房间进行一下音响处理。”当他出现并分析房间时，他认为我所做的一切都很糟糕。
And that’s when I realized, “You know what?
就在那时我意识到，“你知道吗？
I don’t need experts in my life.”
我的生活中不需要专家。”
You kicked him out of the house?
你把他赶出了家门？
No, I didn’t kick him.
不，我没有踢他。
1:08:52 I said, “Thank you.
我说：“谢谢你。
Thank you very much.”
非常感谢。”
“Thank you.
“谢谢。
1:08:54 Great tips.
很棒的提示。
Bye.”
再见。”
I just felt like there is…
我只是觉得有……
1:08:56 Focus on whatever the problems are, use your own judgment, use your own instincts, don’t listen to other people, and only consult other people when there’s a specific problem.
专注于任何问题，用自己的判断，用自己的直觉，不要听别人的，只有在出现具体问题时才咨询别人。
And you consult them not to offload the problem onto them, but to gain wisdom from their perspective.
你咨询他们不是为了把问题推卸给他们，而是从他们的角度获得智慧。
Even if their perspective is ultimately one you don’t agree with, you’re going to gain wisdom from that.
即使他们的观点最终是你不同意的，你也会从中获得智慧。
And just, I ultimately come up with a PHP solution, PHP and jQuery solution to-
只是，我最终想出了一个 PHP 解决方案，PHP 和 jQuery 解决方案 -
PHP studio.
PHP工作室。
The PHP studio.
PHP 工作室。
1:09:27 I have a little suitcase.
我有一个小手提箱。
I use just the basic consumer type of stuff.
我只使用基本的消费者类型的东西。
One light.
一盏灯。
It’s great.
太棒了。
Yeah.
是的。
1:09:36 And look at you, you’re one of the top podcasts in the world, and you get millions of views, and it works.
看看你，你是世界上顶级的播客之一，你有数百万的观看次数，而且它很有效。
And the people that spend so much money on optimizing for the best sound, for the best studio, they get 300 views.
那些花费大量金钱来优化最佳声音、最佳录音室的人，他们获得了 300 次观看。
So, what is this about?
那么，这是关于什么的呢？
This is about that.
这就是关于这个的。
Either you do it really well or also that a lot of these things don’t matter.
要么你做得很好，要么很多事情并不重要。
What matters is probably the content of the podcast.
重要的可能是播客的内容。
You get the interesting guest.
你会遇到一位有趣的客人。
Focus on the stuff that matters.
专注于重要的事情。
Yeah.
是的。
1:09:58 And I think that’s very common.
我认为这很常见。
They call it gear acquisition syndrome, like GAS, people in any industry do this.
他们称之为齿轮获取综合症，就像 GAS 一样，任何行业的人都会这样做。
They just buy all the stuff.
他们只是买所有的东西。
There was a meme recently.
最近有一个梗。
What’s the name for the guy that buys all the stuff before you even started doing the hobby, right?
在你开始做这个爱好之前，那个买了所有东西的人叫什么名字，对吧？
Marketing.
营销。
Marketing does that to people.
营销对人们就是这样。
They want you to buy this stuff.
他们希望你买这个东西。
But man, you can make a Hollywood movie on an iPhone if the content is good enough.
但是，伙计，如果内容足够好，你可以在 iPhone 上制作一部好莱坞电影。
And it will probably be original because you would be using an iPhone for it.
它可能是原创的，因为你会使用 iPhone。
So, the reason I brought that up with photography, there is wisdom from people.
所以，我之所以用摄影来提出这个问题，是因为人们的智慧。
1:10:30 And one of the things I realized, you probably also realized this, but how much power light has to convey emotion.
我意识到的一件事，你可能也意识到了这一点，但是光必须有多少力量来传达情感。
Just take one light and move it around, says you sit in the darkness, move it around your face.
只需拿一盏灯并移动它，就像你坐在黑暗中，将它移动到你的脸上。
The different positions are having a second life potentially.
不同的职位有可能获得第二次生命。
You can play with how a person feels just from a generic face.
你可以通过一张普通的面孔来了解一个人的感受。
It’s interesting.
这很有趣。
You can make people attractive, you can make them ugly, you can make them scary, you can make them lonely, all of this.
你可以让人们变得有吸引力，你可以让他们丑陋，你可以让他们可怕，你可以让他们孤独，所有这一切。
And so you start to realize this.
所以你开始意识到这一点。
And I would definitely love AI help in creating great portraits of people.
我绝对希望人工智能能够帮助我们创作出精彩的人物肖像。
Guest photos.
嘉宾照片。
1:11:16 Yeah.
是的。
Guest photos, for example, that’s a small use case, but for me…
例如，客人照片，这是一个小用例，但对我来说......
1:11:17 I suppose it’s an important use case because I want people to look good, but I also want to capture who they are.
我认为这是一个重要的用例，因为我希望人们看起来不错，但我也想捕捉他们是谁。
Maybe my conception of who they are, what makes them beautiful, what makes their appearance powerful in some ways.
也许是我对他们是谁的看法，是什么让他们美丽，是什么让他们的外表在某些方面变得强大。
Sometimes it’s the eyes, oftentimes it’s the eyes, but there’s certain features of the face can sometimes be really powerful.
有时是眼睛，通常是眼睛，但面部的某些特征有时真的很强大。
It’s also awkward for me to take photographs, so I’m not collecting enough photographs for myself to do it with just those photographs.
对我来说拍照也很尴尬，所以我没有收集足够的照片来让自己只用这些照片来拍摄。
If I can load that off onto AI and then start to play with lighting, all that kind of stuff-
如果我可以将其加载到人工智能上，然后开始玩灯光，所有诸如此类的东西——
You should do this and you should probably do it yourself.
您应该这样做，并且您可能应该自己做。
1:11:59 You can use photo AI, but it’s even more fun if you do it yourself.
你可以使用照片人工智能，但如果你自己做的话会更有趣。
So, you train the models, you can learn about control nets.
因此，训练模型后，您可以了解控制网络。
Control nets is where, for example, your photos and your podcasts are usually from the angle, right?
例如，控制网是您的照片和播客通常从某个角度拍摄的地方，对吗？
So, you can create a control net face pose that’s always like this.
所以，你可以创建一个始终像这样的控制网面部姿势。
So, every model, every photo you generate uses this control net pose, for example.
因此，例如，您生成的每个模型、每张照片都使用此控制网络姿势。
I think would be very fun for you to try out that stuff.
我想你尝试一下这些东西会很有趣。
Do you play with lighting at all?
你会玩灯光吗？
1:12:22 Do you play with lighting pose with the…
你会玩灯光姿势吗？
Man, actually this week or recently some new model came out that can adjust the light of any photo.
伙计，实际上这周或最近出现了一些新模型，可以调整任何照片的光线。
1:12:25 But also AI image with Stable Diffusion.
还有具有稳定扩散的 AI 图像。
I think it’s called Relights.
我想这就是所谓的“重新点燃”。
And it’s amazing.
这太棒了。
You can upload like a light map.
您可以像光照图一样上传。
So, for example, red, purple, blue and use the light map to change the light on the photo you input.
例如，红色、紫色、蓝色，并使用光照图来更改您输入的照片上的光线。
It’s amazing.
太棒了。
There’s, for sure, a lot of stuff you can do.
当然，您可以做很多事情。
What’s your advice for people in general on how to learn all the state-of-the-art AI tools available, like you mentioned new model’s coming out all the time.
对于如何学习所有可用的最先进的人工智能工具，您对一般人有什么建议，就像您提到的不断出现的新模型一样。
1:12:54 How do you pay attention?
你怎么注意？
How do you stay on top of everything?
你如何掌控一切？
I think you need to join Twitter, X.
我认为你需要加入 Twitter，X。
1:13:08 X is amazing now and the whole AI industry’s on X.
X 现在太棒了，整个人工智能行业都在 X 上。
And they’re all anime avatars.
而且他们都是动漫头像。
It’s funny because my friends ask me this, “Who should I follow to stay up to date?” And I say, “Go to X and follow all the AI anime models that this person is following or follows.” And I send them some URL and they all start laughing like, “What is this?” But they’re real people hacking around in AI.
这很有趣，因为我的朋友问我：“我应该关注谁来了解最新动态？”我说，“去X并关注这个人正在关注或关注的所有AI动漫模型。”我向他们发送了一些网址，他们都开始大笑，“这是什么？”但他们是真正的人工智能领域的人。
They get hired by big companies and they’re on X.
他们被大公司聘用，并且在 X 上。
And most of them are anonymous.
而且他们大多数都是匿名的。
It’s very funny.
这很有趣。
They use anime avatars.
他们使用动漫头像。
I don’t.
我不知道。
But those people hack around and then they publish what they’re discovering.
但这些人到处乱搞，然后发布他们的发现。
They took out papers, for example.
例如，他们拿出文件。
So, yeah, definitely X.
所以，是的，绝对是X。
Almost exclusively all the people I follow are AI people.
我关注的人几乎都是人工智能人士。
Yeah, it’s a good time now.
是的，现在正是好时机。
Well, but also just brings happiness to my soul ’cause there’s so much turmoil on twitter.
好吧，但也给我的灵魂带来了快乐，因为推特上有太多的骚乱。
Yeah, like politics and stuff.
是的，比如政治之类的。
There’s battles going on.
战斗正在进行中。
1:14:07 It’s like a war zone, and it’s nice to just go into this happy place to where people are building stuff.
这就像一个战区，很高兴能进入这个人们正在建造东西的快乐地方。
Yeah, a hundred percent.
是的，百分之一百。
1:14:14 I like Twitter for that most, building stuff, seeing other, because it inspires you to build and it’s just fun to see other people share what they’re discovering and then you’re like, “Okay, I’m going to make something too.” It’s just super fun.
我最喜欢 Twitter，因为它能激发你的创作灵感，看到其他人分享他们的发现，然后你就会想：“好吧，我也要做点什么。”这真是太有趣了。
And so if you want to start going on X, and then I would go to replicate and start trying to play with models.
因此，如果你想开始进行 X，那么我会去复制并开始尝试使用模型。
And when you have something that you manually enter stuff, you set the parameters, something that works, you can make an app out of it or a website.
当你有一些手动输入的东西，你设置的参数，一些有效的东西，你可以用它制作一个应用程序或一个网站。
Can you speak a little bit more to the process of it becoming better and better and better, photo AI?
你能多谈谈它变得越来越好、越来越好的照片人工智能的过程吗？
So, I had this photo AI and a lot of people using it.
所以，我有了这个照片人工智能，很多人都在使用它。
1:14:48 There was like a million or more photos a month being generated.
每月大约生成一百万张或更多照片。
And I discovered I was testing parameters, increase the step count of generating photo or changing the sampler, like a scheduler.
我发现我正在测试参数，增加生成照片的步骤数或更改采样器，例如调度程序。
You have DPM tools, all these things I don’t know anything about, but I know that you can choose them and you generate image and they have different resulting images.
你有 DPM 工具，所有这些东西我一无所知，但我知道你可以选择它们并生成图像，它们有不同的结果图像。
But I didn’t know which one were better.
但我不知道哪一个更好。
So, I would do it myself, test it, but then I was like, “Why don’t I test on these users?” ‘Cause I have a million photos generated anyway, so on like 10% of the users, I would randomly test parameters and then I would see if they would, because you can favor the photo or you can download it, I would measure if they favor it or like the photo.
所以，我会自己做，测试它，但后来我想，“为什么我不对这些用户进行测试呢？”因为无论如何我都会生成一百万张照片，所以大约 10% 的用户，我会随机测试参数，然后我会看看他们是否会这样做，因为你可以喜欢这张照片，也可以下载它，我会衡量他们是否喜欢它或喜欢这张照片。
And then I would A/B test and you test for significance and stuff, which parameters were better and which were worse.
然后我会进行 A/B 测试，然后你测试显着性和其他内容，哪些参数更好，哪些参数更差。
So, you starting to figure out which models are actually working well.
因此，您开始弄清楚哪些模型实际上运行良好。
Exactly.
确切地。
1:15:41 And then if it’s significant enough data, you switch to that for all the users.
然后，如果数据足够重要，您就可以为所有用户切换到该数据。
And so that was the breakthrough to make it better.
这就是让它变得更好的突破。
Just use the users to improve themselves.
只是利用用户来提高自己。
And I tell them when they sign up, “We do sampling, we do testing on your photos with random parameters.” And that worked really well.
当他们注册时，我告诉他们，“我们会进行采样，我们会使用随机参数对您的照片进行测试。”这非常有效。
I don’t do a lot of testing anymore because I reached a diminishing point where it’s good, but there was a breakthrough.
我不再做很多测试，因为我已经达到了一个很好的递减点，但有一个突破。
Yeah.
是的。
So, it’s really about the parameters, the models, and letting the users help do the search in the space of models and parameters for you.
所以，这实际上是关于参数、模型，并让用户帮助你在模型和参数的空间中进行搜索。
But actually, so Stable Diffusion, I used 1.5, 2.0 came out as Stable Diffusion, Excel came out, all these new versions, and they were all worse.
但实际上，所以Stable Diffusion，我用了1.5，2.0作为Stable Diffusion出来了，Excel出来了，所有这些新版本，它们都更糟。
1:16:13 And so the core scene of people are still using 1.5 because it’s also not like what do you call “neutered.” They neutered to make it super with safety features and stuff.
所以人们的核心场景仍然在使用 1.5，因为它也不像你所说的“绝育”。他们对其进行了绝育，使其具有安全功能和其他功能。
So, most of the people are still on Stable Diffusion 1.5.
所以，大多数人仍然使用稳定扩散 1.5。
And meanwhile Stable Diffusion, the company went, the CEO left.
与此同时，稳定扩散，公司走了，首席执行官离开了。
A lot of drama happened because they couldn’t make money.
因为赚不到钱，发生了很多戏剧性的事情。
They gave us this open source model that everybody uses.
他们给了我们这个每个人都使用的开源模型。
They raised hundreds of millions of dollars.
他们筹集了数亿美元。
They didn’t make any money with.
他们没有赚到任何钱。
There are not lots.
没有很多。
And they did an amazing job, and now everybody uses open source model for free and it’s amazing.
他们做得非常出色，现在每个人都免费使用开源模型，这真是太棒了。
It’s amazing.
太棒了。
You’re not even using the latest one, you’re saying?
你是说你甚至没有使用最新的？
No, and the strange thing is that this company raised hundreds of millions, but the people that are benefiting from it, early, small, people like me who make these small apps that are using the model.
不，奇怪的是，这家公司筹集了数亿美元，但从中受益的人，早期的小公司，像我这样使用该模型制作这些小型应用程序的人。
1:17:06 And now they’re starting to charge money for the new models, but the new models are not so good for people.
现在他们开始对新型号收费，但新型号对人们来说不太好。
They’re not so open source, right?
他们不是那么开源，对吧？
Yeah.
是的。
1:17:20 It is interesting because open source is so impactful in the AI space, but you wonder what is the business model behind that?
这很有趣，因为开源在人工智能领域具有如此大的影响力，但您想知道其背后的商业模式是什么？
But it’s enabling this whole ecosystem of companies that they’re using the open source models.
但他们使用开源模型使整个公司生态系统成为可能。
So, it’s like those frameworks, but then they didn’t bribe enough influence to use it and they didn’t charge money for the platform.
所以，就像那些框架一样，但他们没有贿赂足够的影响力来使用它，也没有为该平台收取费用。
So, back to your book and the ideas, you didn’t even get to the first step, generating ideas.
所以，回到你的书和想法，你甚至还没有迈出第一步，产生想法。
1:17:42 So, you had no book and you’re filling it up.
所以，你没有书，你正在把它填满。
How do you know when an idea is a good one?
你怎么知道一个想法是个好想法？
You have this just flood of ideas.
你的想法如潮水般涌来。
How do you pick the one that you actually try to build?
您如何选择您真正尝试构建的一个？
Man, mostly you don’t know.
伙计，大多数时候你不知道。
1:18:01 Mostly I choose the ones that are most viable for me to build.
大多数情况下，我会选择最适合我构建的项目。
I cannot build a space company now, right?
我现在不能建立一家太空公司，对吗？
Would be quite challenging, but I can build something-
这将是相当具有挑战性的，但我可以建造一些东西-
Did you actually write down like “space company”?
你真的写的是“太空公司”吗？
No, I think asteroid mining would be very cool because you go to an asteroid, you take some stuff from there, you bring it back, you sell it.
不，我认为小行星采矿会非常酷，因为你去了小行星，从小行星那里拿走一些东西，然后带回来，然后卖掉。
1:18:11 And you can hire someone to launch the thing.
你可以雇人来启动这个东西。
So, all you need is the robot that goes to the asteroid and the robotics’ interesting.
所以，你所需要的只是去小行星的机器人和机器人的乐趣。
I want to also learn robotics.
我也想学机器人。
So, maybe that could be-
所以，也许这可能是——
I think both the asteroid mining and the robotics is…
我认为小行星采矿和机器人技术都是……
Yeah, together.
是的，在一起。
I feel like [inaudible 01:18:40].
我觉得 [听不清 01:18:40]。
No, exactly.
不，确切地说。
1:18:39 This is it.
就是这样。
“We do this not because it’s easy, but because we thought it would be easy.” Exactly.
“我们这样做不是因为它很容易，而是因为我们认为它会很容易。”确切地。
That’s me with asteroid mining.
这就是我的小行星采矿工作。
Exactly.
确切地。
That’s why I should do this.
这就是为什么我应该这样做。
It’s not nomadlist.com.
这不是 nomadlist.com。
1:18:51 It’s asteroid mining.
这是小行星采矿。
Gravity is really hard to overcome.
重力确实很难克服。
Yeah.
是的。
1:18:59 But it seems, man, I sound like idiot.
但看来，伙计，我听起来像个白痴。
Probably not.
可能不会。
But it sounds quite approachable.
但这听起来很平易近人。
Relatively approachable.
比较平易近人。
You don’t have to build the rockets.
你不必建造火箭。
Oh, you use something like SpaceX to get out space.
哦，你可以使用像 SpaceX 这样的公司来进入太空。
Yeah, you hire SpaceX to send this dog robots or whatever.
是的，你雇佣 SpaceX 来发送这只狗机器人或者其他什么。
So, is there actually existing notebook where you wrote down “asteroid mining”?
那么，是否真的有你写下“小行星采矿”的笔记本呢？
No.
不。
1:19:15 Back then I used Trello.
那时我用的是 Trello。
Trello.
特雷洛。
1:19:17 Yeah.
是的。
But now I use Telegram.
但现在我使用 Telegram。
I rather than saved messages.
我没有保存消息。
I have an idea, I write it down.
我有一个想法，我把它写下来。
You type to yourself on Telegram?
你在 Telegram 上给自己打字吗？
Because you use WhatsApp, right?
因为你使用 WhatsApp，对吧？
1:19:24 I think.
我认为。
So, you have “message to yourself” thing also.
所以，你也有“给自己的信息”。
Yeah, so like a notepad.
是的，就像记事本一样。
So, you’re talking to yourself on Telegram.
所以，你是在 Telegram 上自言自语。
Yeah.
是的。
1:19:30 You use like a notepad, not forget stuff.
您像记事本一样使用，不会忘记东西。
And then I pin it.
然后我把它钉住。
I love how you’re not using super complicated systems or whatever.
我喜欢你不使用超级复杂的系统或其他什么。
1:19:33 People use Obsidian now.
人们现在使用黑曜石。
There’s a lot of these, Notion, where you have systems for note-taking.
有很多这样的概念，其中有记笔记的系统。
You’re notepad.exe guy.
你是 notepad.exe 的人。
Man, I saw some YouTubers doing this like…
伙计，我看到一些 YouTuber 这样做......
1:19:48 There’s a lot of these productivity gurus also and they do this whole iPad with a pencil.
还有很多这样的生产力专家，他们用铅笔完成整个 iPad 的工作。
And then I also had an iPad and I also got the pencil, and I got this app where you can draw on paper, draw like a calendar.
然后我还有一个 iPad，我也有一支铅笔，我还有这个应用程序，你可以在纸上画画，像日历一样画画。
People, students use this and you do coloring and stuff.
人们、学生使用它，你可以做着色之类的事情。
And I’m like, “Dude, I did this for a week.
我想，“伙计，我这样做了一个星期。
And then I’m like, ‘What am I doing in my life?’ I can just write it as a message to myself and it’s good enough.”
然后我就会想，‘我这辈子在做什么？’我可以把它写成给自己的信息，这就足够了。”
Speaking of ideas, you shared a tweet explaining why the first idea sometimes might be a brilliant idea.
说到想法，您分享了一条推文，解释了为什么第一个想法有时可能是一个绝妙的想法。
1:20:14 The reason for this you think is the first idea submerges from your subconscious and was actually boiling your brain for weeks, months, sometimes years in the background.
你认为这是因为第一个想法从你的潜意识中消失了，并且实际上让你的大脑在后台沸腾了数周、数月、有时数年。
The eight hours of thinking can never compete with a perpetual subconscious background job.
八个小时的思考永远无法与永久的潜意识后台工作竞争。
So, this is the idea that if you think about an idea for eight hours versus the first idea that pops into your mind.
所以，这个想法是，如果你思考一个想法八个小时，而不是第一个出现在你脑海中的想法。
And sometimes there is subconscious stuff that you’ve been thinking about for many years.
有时，有些潜意识的东西是你多年来一直在思考的。
That’s really interesting.
这真的很有趣。
I mean like, “It emerges.” I wrote it wrong because I’m not native English, but it emerges from your subconscious, it comes from like a water.
我的意思是，“它出现了。”我写错了，因为我不是英语母语，但它是从你的潜意识中出现的，它像水一样来自。
1:20:46 Your subconscious is in here, it’s boiling.
你的潜意识就在这里，它正在沸腾。
And then when it’s ready, it’s like ding.
然后当它准备好时，就像“叮”一样。
It’s like a microwave, it comes out.
就像微波炉一样，它出来了。
And there you have your idea.
这就是你的想法。
You think you have ideas like that?
你认为你有这样的想法吗？
Yeah, all the time.
是的，一直如此。
1:21:02 A hundred percent.
百分之一百。
It’s just stuff that’s been there.
这只是已经存在的东西。
Yes.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
And also it comes up and I send it back, send it back to the kitchen to boil more.
它也出现了，我把它送回去，送回厨房再煮沸。
Not ready yet.
还没准备好。
1:21:12 Yeah.
是的。
And it’s like a soup of ideas that’s cooking.
这就像正在煮的一锅创意汤。
1:21:13 It’s a hundred percent.
这是百分之一百。
This is how my brain works, and I think most people.
这就是我的大脑的运作方式，我想大多数人也是如此。
But it’s also about the timing.
但这也与时机有关。
1:21:18 Sometimes you have to send it back, not just because you’re not ready, but the world is not ready.
有时你必须把它寄回去，不仅仅是因为你还没有准备好，而是世界还没有准备好。
Yeah.
是的。
1:21:24 So, many times, like startup founders are too early with their idea.
所以，很多时候，初创公司的创始人提出他们的想法还为时过早。
Yeah, a hundred percent.
是的，百分之一百。
Robotics is an interesting one for that because there’s been a lot of robotics companies that failed, because it’s been very difficult to build a robotics company make money ’cause there’s the manufacturing, the cost of everything.
机器人技术是一个有趣的领域，因为有很多机器人公司都失败了，因为建立一家赚钱的机器人公司非常困难，因为有制造和一切成本。
1:21:30 The intelligence of the robot is not sufficient to create a compelling enough product from wish to make money.
机器人的智能不足以创造出足够引人注目的产品来满足赚钱的愿望。
There’s this long line of robotics companies that have tried, they had big dreams, and they failed.
许多机器人公司都曾尝试过，他们有远大的梦想，但都失败了。
Yeah, like Boston Dynamics.
是的，就像波士顿动力公司一样。
1:21:54 I still don’t know what they’re doing, but they always upload YouTube videos and it’s amazing.
我仍然不知道他们在做什么，但他们总是上传 YouTube 视频，这太棒了。
But I feel like a lot of these companies don’t have, it’s like a solution looking for a problem for now.
但我觉得很多这样的公司都没有，这就像现在寻找问题的解决方案。
Military obviously uses.
军事显然使用。
But do I need a robotic dog now for my house?
但我现在家里需要一只机器狗吗？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
It’s fun, but it doesn’t really solve anything yet.
这很有趣，但还没有真正解决任何问题。
I feel the same with VR.
我对VR也有同样的感觉。
It’s really cool.
真的很酷。
Apple Vision Pro is very cool.
Apple Vision Pro 非常酷。
It doesn’t really solve something for me yet.
它还没有真正为我解决问题。
And that’s the tech looking for a solution, but one day will.
这就是寻找解决方案的技术，但总有一天会的。
When the personal computer, when the Mac came along, there was a big switch that happened.
当个人电脑、Mac 出现时，发生了重大转变。
1:22:24 It somehow captivated everybody’s imagination.
它以某种方式激发了每个人的想象力。
The application, the killer apps became apparent.
应用程序、杀手级应用程序变得显而易见。
You can type in a computer.
你可以在电脑上打字。
But they became apparent immediately.
但它们很快就变得明显了。
1:22:38 Back then they also had this thing where like, “We don’t need these computers.
当时他们也有类似的东西，“我们不需要这些计算机。
They’re like a hype.” And it also went in like waves.
它们就像是一种炒作。”而且它也像波浪一样涌入。
Yeah.
是的。
1:22:49 But the hype is the thing that allowed the thing to proliferate sufficiently to where people’s minds would start opening up to it a little bit, the possibility of it.
但炒作使得这种东西得以充分扩散，人们的思想开始对它的可能性开放一点。
Right now, for example, with the robotics, there’s very few robots in the homes of people.
例如，现在，随着机器人技术的发展，人们家中的机器人很少。
Exactly, yeah.
没错，是的。
The robots that are there are Roombas, so the vacuum cleaners, or they’re Amazon Alexa.
那里的机器人是 Roombas，真空吸尘器，或者是亚马逊 Alexa。
Or dishwasher, I mean, it’s essentially a robot.
或者洗碗机，我的意思是，它本质上是一个机器人。
Yes, but the intelligence is very limited, I guess, is one way we can summarize all of them except Alexa, which is pretty intelligent, but is limited with the kind of ways it interacts with you.
是的，但我想，智能是非常有限的，这是我们总结所有智能的一种方式，除了 Alexa，它非常智能，但它与你互动的方式受到限制。
1:23:13 That’s just one example.
这只是一个例子。
I sometimes think about that as if some people in this world were born in the whole existence is like, they were meant to build the thing.
我有时会想，好像这个世界上的某些人是在整个存在中出生的，他们注定要建造这个东西。
I sometimes wonder what I was meant to do.
有时我想知道我到底要做什么。
You have these plans for your life, you have these dreams?
你对你的人生有这些计划，你有这些梦想吗？
I think you’re meant to build robots.
我认为你应该建造机器人。
Okay.
好的。
1:23:51 Me personally.
我个人。
Maybe.
或许。
Maybe.
或许。
That’s a sense I’ve had, but it could be other things.
这是我曾经有过的感觉，但也可能是其他的东西。
Hilariously not be the thing I was meant to be is to talk to people, which is weird because I always was anxious about talking to people.
有趣的是，与人交谈并不是我本应成为的事情，这很奇怪，因为我总是对与人交谈感到焦虑。
It’s like a…
这就像一个……
Really?
真的吗？
Yeah, I’m scared of this.
是的，我很害怕这个。
1:24:10 I was scared.
我很害怕。
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
I’m scared of you.
我害怕你。
It’s just anxiety throughout, social interaction in general.
总的来说，这只是社交互动中的焦虑。
1:24:15 I’m an introvert that hides from the world.
我是一个内向的人，逃避世界。
So, yeah, it’s really strange.
所以，是的，这真的很奇怪。
Yeah, but that’s also kind of life, like life brings you to, it’s very hard to super intently choose what you’re going to do with your life.
是的，但这也是一种生活，就像生活带给你的那样，很难非常专注地选择你要做什么。
1:24:23 It is more like surfing.
这更像是冲浪。
You’re surfing the waves, you go in the ocean, you see where you end up.
你在海浪中冲浪，你在海洋中航行，你知道你最终会到达哪里。
Yeah.
是的。
1:24:38 And there’s universe has a kind of sense of humor.
宇宙有一种幽默感。
Yeah.
是的。
I guess you have to just allow yourself to be carried away by the waves.
我想你必须让自己被海浪带走。
Exactly.
确切地。
1:24:46 Yeah.
是的。
Have you felt that way in your life?
你在生活中有过这样的感觉吗？
Yeah, all the time.
是的，一直如此。
1:24:50 Yeah.
是的。
I think that’s the best way to live your life.
我认为这是最好的生活方式。
So, a allow of whatever to happen.
所以，允许发生任何事情。
1:24:54 Do you know what you’re doing in the next few years?
你知道未来几年你要做什么吗？
Is it possible that it’ll be completely changed?
有没有可能彻底改变呢？
Possibly.
可能吧。
1:25:00 I think relationships, you want to hold the relationships, right?
我认为关系，你想维持关系，对吗？
You want hold your girl and you want her to become wife and all this stuff.
你想要拥抱你的女孩，你想要她成为妻子等等。
But I think you should stay open to where, for example, where you want to live.
但我认为你应该对你想居住的地方保持开放的态度。
We don’t know where we want to live, for example.
例如，我们不知道我们想住在哪里。
That’s something that will figure itself out.
这是会自行解决的事情。
It will crystallize where you will get sent by the waves to somewhere where you want to live, for example.
例如，它会结晶，你会被海浪送到你想居住的地方。
What you’re going to do?
你要做什么？
I think that’s a really good way to live your life.
我认为这是一种非常好的生活方式。
I think most stress comes from trying to control, like hold things.
我认为大多数压力来自于试图控制，比如握住东西。
It’s kind of Buddhist.
这是一种佛教。
You need to lose control, let it lose.
你需要失去控制，让它失去。
And then things will happen.
然后事情就会发生。
When you do mushrooms, when you do drugs, like psychedelic drugs, the people that start, that are control freaks, get bad trips, right?
当你做蘑菇时，当你做毒品时，比如迷幻药，那些开始的人，那些控制狂，会经历糟糕的旅程，对吗？
‘Cause you need to let go.
因为你需要放手。
I’m pretty control freak actually.
事实上我是个控制狂。
And when I did mushrooms when I was 17, it was very good.
当我17岁时做蘑菇时，效果非常好。
And then at the end it wasn’t so good ’cause I tried to control it.
但到了最后，情况并没有那么好，因为我试图控制它。
It was like, “Ah, now it’s going too much.
就像是，“啊，现在太过分了。
Now, I need to…
现在，我需要……
Let’s stop.” Bro, you can’t stop it.
我们停下来吧。”兄弟，你阻止不了。
You need to go through with it.
你需要经历它。
And I think it’s a good metaphor for life.
我认为这是对生活的一个很好的比喻。
I think that’s a very tranquil way to lead you life.
我认为这是一种非常平静的生活方式。
Yeah, actually when I took ayahuasca, that lesson is deeply within me already that you can’t control anything.
是的，事实上，当我服用死藤水时，这个教训已经深深地印在我的脑海里：你无法控制任何事情。
1:26:05 I think I probably learned that the most in jiu-jitsu.
我想我在柔术中学到的最多的可能是这一点。
So, just let go and relax.
所以，放手并放松吧。
And that’s why I had just an incredible experience.
这就是为什么我有一次令人难以置信的经历。
There’s literally no negative aspect of my ayahuasca experience, or any psychedelics I’ve ever had.
我的死藤水体验或我曾经服用过的任何迷幻药实际上没有任何负面影响。
Some of that could be with my biology and my genetics, whatever, but some of it was just not trying to control.
其中一些可能与我的生物学和遗传学有关，无论如何，但其中一些只是不想控制。
Just surf the waves.
只是冲浪。
Yeah.
是的。
1:26:34 For sure.
一定。
I think most stress in life comes from trying to control.
我认为生活中的大部分压力都来自于试图控制。
So, once you have the idea, step two, build.
因此，一旦有了想法，第二步就是构建。
1:26:38 How do you think about building the thing once you have the idea?
一旦你有了想法，你会如何考虑建造这个东西？
I think you should build with the technology that you know.
我认为你应该用你知道的技术来构建。
1:26:45 So, for example, Nomad List, which is like this website I made to figure out the best cities to live and work as digital nomads, it wasn’t a website.
例如，Nomad List，就像我创建的这个网站，旨在找出最适合数字游牧者生活和工作的城市，它不是一个网站。
It launched as a Google spreadsheet.
它以 Google 电子表格的形式推出。
So, it was a public Google spreadsheet anybody could edit.
所以，这是一个任何人都可以编辑的公共 Google 电子表格。
And I was like, “I’m collecting cities where we can live as these nomads with the internet speeds, the cost of living, other stuff.” And I tweeted it.
我当时想，“我正在收集我们可以作为这些游牧民族生活的城市，那里的互联网速度、生活成本和其他东西。”我发了推文。
And back then, I didn’t have a lot of followers.
那时，我没有很多追随者。
I have a few thousand followers or something.
我有几千个追随者什么的。
And I went viral for my skill viral back then, which was five retweets and a lot of people started editing it.
当时我因为我的技能而走红，转发了五次，很多人开始编辑它。
And there was hundreds of cities in this list from all over the world with all the data.
这个列表中有来自世界各地的数百个城市的所有数据。
It was very crowdsourced.
这是非常众包的。
And then I made that into a website.
然后我把它做成了一个网站。
1:27:29 So, figuring out what technology you can use, that you already know.
因此，弄清楚您可以使用哪些您已经知道的技术。
So, if you cannot code, you can use spreadsheet.
因此，如果您不会编码，您可以使用电子表格。
If you cannot use a spreadsheet, whatever, you can always use, for example, a website generator like Wix or something, or Squarespace, right?
如果你不能使用电子表格，无论如何，你总是可以使用，例如，像 Wix 之类的网站生成器，或者 Squarespace，对吗？
You don’t need to code to build a startup.
你不需要编写代码来建立一家初创公司。
All you need is an idea for a product, build something like a landing page or something, put a Stripe button on there, and then make it.
您所需要的只是一个产品创意，构建一个登陆页面之类的东西，在上面放一个 Stripe 按钮，然后制作它。
And if you can code, use the language that you already know and start coding with that and see how far you can get.
如果您会编码，请使用您已经了解的语言并开始使用该语言进行编码，看看您能走多远。
And you can always rewrite the code later.
而且您以后随时可以重写代码。
The tech stack it’s not the most important of a business when you’re starting out a business.
当你开始创业时，技术堆栈并不是最重要的。
The important thing is that you validate that there’s a market, that there’s a product that people want to pay for.
重要的是你要验证是否存在市场，是否存在人们愿意付费的产品。
So, use whatever you can use.
所以，能用什么就用什么。
And if you cannot code, use spreadsheets, landing page generators, whatever.
如果您不会编码，请使用电子表格、登陆页面生成器等。
And the crowdsourcing element is fascinating.
众包元素很有趣。
1:28:19 It’s cool.
这很酷。
It’s cool when a lot of people start using it.
当很多人开始使用它时，这很酷。
You get to learn so fast.
你学得很快。
I’ve actually did the spreadsheet thing.
我实际上已经完成了电子表格的工作。
You share a spreadsheet publicly, and I made it editable.
您公开共享一个电子表格，我将其设置为可编辑。
Yeah.
是的。
It’s so cool.
太酷了。
Interesting things start happening.
有趣的事情开始发生。
Yeah, I did it for a workout thing ’cause I was doing a large amount of pushups and pull ups every day.
是的，我这样做是为了锻炼身体，因为我每天都会做大量的俯卧撑和引体向上。
Yeah, I remember this man.
是的，我记得这个人。
1:28:44 Yeah.
是的。
While it’s like Google Sheets is pretty limited in that everything’s allowed.
虽然 Google Sheets 的功能非常有限，但一切都是允许的。
1:28:47 So, people could just write anything in any cell and they can create new sheets, new tabs, and it just exploded.
因此，人们可以在任何单元格中编写任何内容，并且可以创建新工作表、新选项卡，然后它就会爆炸。
And one of the things that I really enjoyed is there’s very few trolls because actually other people would delete the trolls.
我真正喜欢的一件事是，巨魔很少，因为实际上其他人会删除巨魔。
There would be this weird war of like, they want to protect the thing.
会有一场奇怪的战争，他们想保护这个东西。
It’s an immune system that’s inherent to the thing.
这是事物固有的免疫系统。
It becomes a society in a spreadsheet.
它变成了电子表格中的社会。
And then there’s the outcasts who go to the bottom of the spreadsheet and they would try to hide messages and they like, “I don’t want to be with the cool kids up at the top of the spreadsheet, so I’m going to at the bottom.” I mean, but that kind of crowdsourcing element is really powerful.
然后还有一些被遗弃的人，他们走到电子表格的底部，他们会试图隐藏消息，他们喜欢说，“我不想和电子表格顶部的酷孩子在一起，所以我要去底部。”我的意思是，这种众包元素确实很强大。
1:29:20 And if you can create a product that used that to its benefit, that’s really nice.
如果你能创造出一款能够利用这一点的产品，那就太好了。
Any kind of voting system, any kind of rating system for A and B testing is really, really, really fascinating.
任何类型的投票系统、任何类型的 A 和 B 测试评级系统都非常非常令人着迷。
So, anyway, so Nomad List is great.
所以，无论如何，Nomad List 很棒。
I would love for you to talk about that.
我很想让你谈谈这个。
But one sort of way to talk about it is through you building hood maps.
但谈论它的一种方式是通过构建引擎盖地图。
You did an awesome thing, which is document yourself building the thing and doing so in just a handful of days, like 3, 4, 5 days.
你做了一件很棒的事情，记录了你自己构建这个东西的过程，并在短短几天内做到了这一点，比如 3、4、5 天。
So, people should definitely check out the video in the blog post.
因此，人们一定应该查看博客文章中的视频。
Can you explain what hood maps is and what this whole process was?
你能解释一下引擎盖图是什么以及整个过程是什么吗？
So, I was traveling and I was still trying to find problems, and I would discover that everybody’s experience of a city is different because they stay in different areas.
所以，我在旅行中，我仍然在寻找问题，我会发现每个人对一个城市的体验是不同的，因为他们住在不同的地区。
1:30:17 So, I’m from Amsterdam and when I grew up in Amsterdam, or I didn’t grow up, but I lived there in university, I knew that center is like, in Europe, the centers are always tourist areas, so they’re super busy.
所以，我来自阿姆斯特丹，当我在阿姆斯特丹长大时，或者我没有长大，但我在那里上大学时，我知道中心就像在欧洲，中心总是旅游区，所以它们非常繁忙。
They’re not very authentic, they’re not really Dutch culture, it’s Amsterdam tourist culture.
它们不是很正宗，不是真正的荷兰文化，而是阿姆斯特丹的旅游文化。
So, when people would travel to Amsterdam I would say, “Don’t go to the center, go to southeast of the center, the Jordaan or the Pijp or something.” More hipster areas.
所以，当人们去阿姆斯特丹旅行时，我会说，“不要去市中心，去市中心的东南部，Jordaan 或 Pijp 之类的。”更多时尚区域。
I was like, “A little more authentic culture of Amsterdam.”
我当时想，“更真实一点的阿姆斯特丹文化。”
1:30:54 That’s where I would live and where I would go.
那是我要住的地方，也是我要去的地方。
And I thought this could be an app where you can have a Google Maps and you put colors over it.
我认为这可能是一个应用程序，你可以在其中拥有谷歌地图，然后在上面添加颜色。
You have areas that are like color-coded, like red is tourist, green is rich, green money, yellow is hipster.
你有类似颜色编码的区域，比如红色是游客，绿色是富有，绿色是金钱，黄色是时髦。
And you can figure out where you need to go in the city when you travel.
当你旅行时，你可以弄清楚你需要去城市的哪些地方。
‘Cause I was traveling a lot, I wanted to go to the cool spots.
因为我经常旅行，所以我想去一些很酷的地方。
So, just use color.
所以，只需使用颜色即可。
Color.
颜色。
1:31:15 Yeah.
是的。
And I would use a canvas.
我会使用画布。
So, I thought, okay, what do I need?
所以我想，好吧，我需要什么？
I need to…
我需要……
Did you know that you would be using a canvas?
您知道您会使用画布吗？
No, I didn’t know it was possible ’cause I didn’t know-
不，我不知道这是可能的，因为我不知道-
This is the cool thing.
这是很酷的事情。
1:31:24 People should really check it out.
人们真的应该检查一下。
This is how it started.
事情就是这样开始的。
Because you’re honestly capture so beautifully the humbling aspects or the embarrassing aspects of not knowing what to do.
因为你诚实地捕捉到了因不知道该做什么而感到谦卑或尴尬的方面。
1:31:27 It’s like, “How do I do this?” And you document yourself.
就像“我该怎么做？”并且您记录自己。
Yeah, you’re right, “Dude, I feel embarrassed about myself.”
是的，你说得对，“伙计，我为自己感到尴尬。”
Oh, really?
哦真的吗？
1:31:45 Yeah.
是的。
It’s called being alive.
这就是所谓的活着。
Nice.
好的。
So, you don’t know anything about Canvas is HTML5 thing that allows you to draw shapes.
所以，你不知道 Canvas 是 HTML5 的东西，可以让你绘制形状。
Draw images, just draw pixels essentially.
绘制图像，本质上只是绘制像素。
1:31:58 And that was special back then because before you could only have elements, right?
这在当时很特别，因为之前你只能拥有元素，对吗？
So, you want to draw a pixel, use a Canvas.
所以，你想绘制一个像素，使用画布。
And I knew I needed to draw pixels ’cause I need to draw these colors.
我知道我需要绘制像素，因为我需要绘制这些颜色。
And I felt like, okay, I’ll get a Google Maps, I frame Embeds, and then I put a div on top of it with the colors.
我觉得，好吧，我会得到一个谷歌地图，我框架嵌入，然后我在它上面放一个带有颜色的 div。
And I’ll do opacity 50, so it kind of shows.
我将不透明度设置为 50，这样就可以显示出来了。
So, I did that with Canvas, and then I started drawing.
所以，我用 Canvas 做到了这一点，然后我开始画画。
And then I felt like obviously other people need to edit this ’cause I cannot draw all these things myself.
然后我觉得显然其他人需要编辑这个，因为我自己无法画出所有这些东西。
So, I crowdsourced it again.
于是，我又众包了。
1:32:31 And you would draw on the map and then it would send the pixel data to the server.
您可以在地图上绘制，然后它将像素数据发送到服务器。
It would put it in the database.
它将把它放入数据库中。
And then I would have a robot running like a cron job, which every week would calculate, or every day would calculate like, “Okay, so Amsterdam Center, there’s like six people say it’s tourists, this part of the center, but two people say it’s like hipster.
然后我会让一个机器人像 cron 作业一样运行，每周都会计算，或者每天都会计算，“好吧，阿姆斯特丹中心，有六个人说这是游客，中心的这一部分，但有两个人说它就像时髦。
Okay, so the tourist part wins, right?” It’s just an array.
好吧，所以游客部分获胜，对吧？”它只是一个数组。
So, find the most common value in a little pixel area on a map.
因此，在地图上的一个小像素区域中找到最常见的值。
So, if most people say it’s tourists, it’s tourists, and it becomes red.
所以，如果大多数人说是游客，那就是游客，它就变成红色了。
And I would do that for all the GPS corners in the world.
我会对世界上所有的 GPS 角落都这样做。
Can we just clarify, as a human that’s contributing to this, do you have to be in that location to make the label or do you-
我们能否澄清一下，作为一个为此做出贡献的人，您是否必须在那个位置才能制作标签，或者您-
People just type in cities and go berserk and start drawing everywhere.
人们只是在城市里打字，然后就疯狂地开始到处画画。
Would they draw shapes or would they draw pixels?
他们会绘制形状还是绘制像素？
Man, they drew crazy stuff, like offensive symbols.
伙计，他们画了一些疯狂的东西，比如攻击性的符号。
1:33:18 I mentioned they would draw penises.
我提到他们会画阴茎。
I mean that’s obviously a guy thing.
我的意思是，这显然是男人的事情。
I would do the same thing, draw penises.
我也会做同样的事情，画阴茎。
When I show up to Mars and there’s no cameras, I’m drawing a penis on the same-
当我出现在火星上时，那里没有相机，我会在火星上画一个阴茎——
Exactly.
正是如此。
1:33:31 Man, I did it in the snow.
伙计，我是在雪地里做的。
But the penises did not become a problem ’cause I knew that not everybody would draw a penis and not in the same place.
但阴茎并没有成为问题，因为我知道不是每个人都会画阴茎，而且不是在同一个地方。
So, most people would use it fairly.
所以，大多数人都会公平地使用它。
So, just say if I had enough crowdsource data, so you have all these pixels on top of each, it’s like a layer of pixels, and you choose the most common pixel.
所以，只要说我是否有足够的众包数据，那么你就会在每个像素之上拥有所有这些像素，就像一层像素，然后你选择最常见的像素。
So, yeah, it’s just like a poll, but in visual format.
所以，是的，这就像民意调查，但采用视觉格式。
And it worked.
它奏效了。
And within a week, I’d had enough data.
一周之内，我就获得了足够的数据。
And it was like cities that did really well, like Los Angeles, a lot of people started using it.
就像洛杉矶这样表现非常好的城市，很多人开始使用它。
Like most data’s in Los Angeles.
就像洛杉矶的大多数数据一样。
Because Los Angeles has defined neighborhoods.
因为洛杉矶有明确的社区。
1:34:02 And not just in terms of the official labels, but what they’re known for.
不仅仅是官方标签，还有它们的知名度。
Did you provide the categories that they were allowed to use as labels?
您是否提供了允许他们用作标签的类别？
Colors, yeah.
颜色，是的。
As colors?
作为颜色？
So, I use like, I think you can see there’s like hipster, tourist, rich, business.
所以，我用的是，我想你可以看到像时髦、游客、富人、商业这样的词。
1:34:20 There’s always a business area and then there’s a residential.
总有一个商业区，然后有一个住宅区。
Residential is gray.
住宅是灰色的。
So, I thought those were the most common things in the city, kind of.
所以，我认为这些是城市里最常见的事情。
And a little bit meme-y, like it’s almost fun to label it.
还有一点迷因，就像给它贴上标签几乎很有趣一样。
Yeah, I mean obviously it’s simplified, but you need to simplify this stuff.
是的，我的意思显然是简化了，但你需要简化这些东西。
1:34:35 You don’t want to have too many categories.
您不想有太多类别。
And it’s essentially like using a paintbrush, where you select the color in the bottom, you select the category and you start drawing.
它本质上就像使用画笔，您可以在底部选择颜色，选择类别，然后开始绘画。
There’s no instruction.
没有说明。
There’s no manual.
没有手册。
And then I also add a tagging so people could write something on a specific location, so, “Don’t go here,” or like, “Here’s nice cafes and stuff.” And man, the memes that came from that.
然后我还添加一个标签，以便人们可以在特定位置写一些东西，所以，“不要去这里”，或者“这里有不错的咖啡馆和东西。”伙计，模因就是由此而来的。
And I also added uploading so that the tags could be uploaded.
我还添加了上传功能，以便可以上传标签。
So, the memes that came from that is amazing.
所以，由此产生的模因是惊人的。
People in Los Angeles would write crazy stuff.
洛杉矶人会写一些疯狂的东西。
It would go viral in all these cities.
它会在所有这些城市传播开来。
You can allow your location, and then we’ll probably send you to Austin.
您可以允许您的位置，然后我们可能会将您送往奥斯汀。
Okay, so we’re looking…
好的，所以我们正在寻找……
1:35:17 Oh, boy.
哦，男孩。
“Drunk hipsters.”
“醉酒的时髦人士。”
“AirBroNBros.”
“AirBroNBros”。
” AirBroNBros.” “Hipster Girls who do Cocaine.”
“AirBroNBros。” “吸食可卡因的时髦女孩。”
I saw a guy in a fish costume get beaten up here.
我看到一个穿着鱼装的人在这里被殴打。
Yep, that seems also accurate.
是的，这似乎也准确。
“Overpriced and underwhelming.”
“价格过高而且平淡无奇。”
Let me see.
让我看看。
1:35:43 Let me make sure this is accurate.
让我确认一下这是否准确。
Let’s see.
让我们来看看。
“Dirty 6th.” For people who know Austin, know that that’s important to label.
“肮脏的六号。”对于了解奥斯汀的人来说，知道标记很重要。
6th Street is famous in Austin.
第六街在奥斯汀很有名。
“Dirty Sixth drunk frat boys,” accurate.
“肮脏的第六个醉酒的兄弟会男孩”，准确地说。
” Drunk fat bros,” continued on Sixth, very well known.
《醉胖兄弟》继续在《第六》节目中广为人知。
“Drunk douchebros.”
“醉酒的混蛋。”
Drunk frat bros continued on sixth.
醉酒兄弟会继续获得第六名。
1:36:00 Very well then.
那么很好。
Douche bros.
杜什兄弟。
Was Sixth drunk douche bros.
是第六个醉酒的混蛋兄弟。
Go from frat to douche.
从兄弟会到混蛋。
Douche.
冲洗。
1:36:07 It’s very accurate so far.
到目前为止它非常准确。
Really?
真的吗？
They only let hot people live here.
他们只让性感的人住在这里。
1:36:11 I think that might be accurate.
我认为这可能是准确的。
I think the district.
我认为是区。
1:36:17 Exercise freaks on the river.
河边的锻炼狂人。
Yeah, that’s true.
是的，确实如此。
Dog runners.
狗赛跑者。
1:36:24 Accurate.
准确的。
Yeah.
是的。
Saw a guy in the fish costume get beat up here.
看到一个穿着鱼装的人在这里被殴打。
I want to know that story.
我想知道那个故事。
So that’s all user contributed.
这就是所有用户贡献的。
Yeah.
是的。
1:36:32 And this is stuff I couldn’t come up with because I don’t know Austin.
这是我想不出的东西，因为我不认识奥斯汀。
I don’t know the memes here and the subcultures.
我不知道这里的模因和亚文化。
And then me as a user can upvote or down vote this.
然后我作为用户可以对此投赞成票或反对票。
Yes.
是的。
So this is completely crowd sourced.
所以这完全是众包的。
Because of Reddit up vote, down vote.
因为 Reddit 上有赞成票，有反对票。
1:36:42 Took it From there.
从那里拿的。
Yeah.
是的。
1:36:45 That’s really, really, really powerful.
这真的非常非常非常强大。
Single people with dogs.
单身人士养狗。
Accurate.
准确的。
At which point did it go from colors to actually showing the text?
何时从颜色变为实际显示文本？
I think I added the text a week after.
我想我是在一周后添加了文字的。
1:36:53 And so here’s the pixels.
这是像素。
So that’s really cool.
所以这真的很酷。
1:36:59 The pixels, how do you go from that?
像素，你如何处理？
That’s a huge amount of data.
这是一个巨大的数据量。
Yeah.
是的。
So we’re now looking at an image where it’s just a sea of pixels that are colored different colors in a city.
所以我们现在看到的图像只是一个城市中呈现不同颜色的像素海洋。
1:37:02 So how do you combine that to be a thing that actually makes some sense?
那么如何将其结合起来成为一件真正有意义的事情呢？
I think here the problem was that you have this data but it’s not locked to one location.
我认为这里的问题是你有这些数据，但它没有锁定到一个位置。
Yeah.
是的。
So I had to normalize it.
所以我必须将其正常化。
1:37:20 So when you draw on the map, it’ll show you the specific pixel location and you can convert the pixel location to a GPS coordinate like latitudes, longitudes.
因此，当您在地图上绘图时，它会显示具体的像素位置，您可以将像素位置转换为 GPS 坐标，如纬度、经度。
But the number will have a lot of commas or a lot of decimals because it’s very specific.
但这个数字会有很多逗号或很多小数，因为它非常具体。
It’s like this specific part of the table.
就像桌子上的这个特定部分一样。
So what you want to do is you want to take that pixel and you want to normalize it by removing decimals, which I discovered, so that you’re talking about this neighborhood or this street.
所以你想要做的是你想要获取该像素，并且你想通过删除小数来标准化它，这是我发现的，这样你就可以谈论这个社区或这条街道。
So that’s what I did.
这就是我所做的。
I just took the decimals off and then I saved it like this and then it starts going to a grid and then you have a grid of data.
我只是去掉了小数，然后像这样保存它，然后它开始进入网格，然后你就有了一个数据网格。
You get a pixel map kind of.
你会得到一个像素图。
And then you said it looks kind of ugly so then you smooth it.
然后你说它看起来有点丑，所以你把它平滑了。
Yeah, I started adding blurring and stuff.
是的，我开始添加模糊之类的东西。
1:38:00 I think now it’s not smooth again because I liked it better.
我想现在又不顺利了，因为我更喜欢它了。
People like the pixel look.
人们喜欢像素外观。
Yeah, a lot of people use it and it keeps going viral and every time my maps bill like Map Box, I had to stop using…
是的，很多人都在使用它，而且它一直在病毒式传播，每次我的地图账单像 Map Box 一样，我就不得不停止使用……
I first used Google Maps.
我首先使用谷歌地图。
It went viral and Google Maps, it was out of credits and I had to…
它在谷歌地图上疯传，积分用完了，我不得不……
So funny, when I launched, it went viral, the map didn’t load anymore.
太有趣了，当我推出时，它迅速传播开来，地图就不再加载了。
It says over the limits.
它说超过限制。
You need to contact enterprise sales.
您需要联系企业销售。
And I’m like, “But I need now a map and I don’t want to contact enterprise sales.
我想，“但我现在需要一张地图，而且我不想联系企业销售人员。
I don’t want to go on a call schedule with some calendar.”
我不想用日历来安排通话日程。”
1:38:36 So I switched to Map Box and then had Map Box for years and then it went viral and I had a bill of $20,000.
所以我转而使用 Map Box，然后使用 Map Box 多年，然后它迅速传播开来，我收到了 20,000 美元的账单。
It was last year.
那是去年的事了。
So they helped me with the bill.
所以他们帮我付了账单。
They said you can pay less.
他们说你可以少付点钱。
And then I now switched to an open source kind of map platform.
然后我现在切换到开源地图平台。
So it’s a very expensive product and never made any dollar money, but it’s very fun but it’s very expensive.
所以它是一个非常昂贵的产品，从来没有赚过一美元钱，但它很有趣，但非常昂贵。
Where do you learn from that experience?
你从哪里学到这些经验？
1:38:58 Because when you leverage somebody else’s through the API.
因为当你通过 API 利用别人的资源时。
Yeah, I don’t think a map hosting service should cost this much, but I could host it myself, but that would be…
是的，我不认为地图托管服务应该花费这么多，但我可以自己托管它，但这会......
1:39:06 I don’t know how to do that, but I could do that.
我不知道该怎么做，但我可以做到。
Yeah, it’s super complicated.
是的，这非常复杂。
I think that the thing is more about you can’t make money with this project.
我认为问题更多的是你无法通过这个项目赚钱。
1:39:19 I try to do many things to make money with it and it hasn’t worked.
我尝试用它做很多事情来赚钱，但都没有成功。
You talked about possibly doing advertisements on it or somehow or people sponsoring it.
你谈到可能会在上面做广告或者以某种方式或者有人赞助它。
1:39:26 Yeah.
是的。
But it’s really surprising to me that people don’t want to advertise on it.
但令我感到惊讶的是，人们不想在上面做广告。
I think map apps are very hard to monetize.
我认为地图应用程序很难盈利。
1:39:37 Google Maps also doesn’t really make money.
谷歌地图也并没有真正赚钱。
Sometimes you see these ads, but I don’t think there’s a lot of money there.
有时你会看到这些广告，但我不认为那里有很多钱。
You could put a banner ad, but it’s kind of ugly and the project, it’s kind of cool.
你可以放一个横幅广告，但它有点难看，而且这个项目很酷。
So it’s kind of fun to subsidize it.
所以补贴它很有趣。
It’s a little bit part of Nomad List.
它是 Nomad List 的一小部分。
I put it on Nomad List in the cities as well.
我也把它列入城市的游牧名单。
But I also realized you don’t need to monetize everything.
但我也意识到你不需要把一切都货币化。
Some products are just cool and it’s cool to have hood maps exist.
有些产品很酷，并且有引擎盖地图的存在也很酷。
I want this to exist, right?
我希望这个存在，对吧？
Yeah.
是的。
1:40:08 There’s a bunch of stuff you’ve created that I’m just glad exists in this world.
你创造了很多东西，我很高兴它们存在于这个世界上。
That’s true.
这是真的。
And it’s a whole nother puzzle and I’m surprised to figure out how to make money off of it.
这是一个完全不同的难题，我很惊讶地发现如何从中赚钱。
I’m surprised maps don’t make money, but you’re right.
我很惊讶地图不能赚钱，但你是对的。
It’s hard.
这很难。
It’s hard to make money because there’s a lot of compute required to actually bring it to life.
赚钱很难，因为需要大量的计算才能真正实现它。
So where do you put the ad?
那么你把广告放在哪里呢？
1:40:26 If you have a website, you can put a ad box or you can do a product placement or something.
如果你有一个网站，你可以放一个广告框或者你可以做一个产品植入什么的。
But you’re talking about a map app where 90% of the interface is a map.
但你谈论的是一个地图应用程序，其中 90% 的界面都是地图。
So what are you going to do?
那么你要做什么？
It’s hard to figure out where is this.
很难弄清楚这是哪里。
Yeah.
是的。
1:40:40 And people don’t want to pay for it.
人们不想为此付出代价。
No, exactly because if you make people pay for it, you lose 99% of the user base and you lose the crowdsource data.
不，正是因为如果你让人们付费，你就会失去 99% 的用户群，并且会失去众包数据。
1:40:42 So it’s not fun anymore.
所以这不再有趣了。
It stops being accurate.
它不再准确。
So they pay for it by crowdsourcing the data, but then yeah, it’s fine.
所以他们通过众包数据来支付费用，但是，是的，这很好。
It doesn’t make money, but it’s cool.
虽然不赚钱，但是很酷。
But that said, Nomad List makes money.
但话虽如此，Nomad List 也能赚钱。
Yeah.
是的。
So what was the story behind Nomad List?
那么 Nomad List 背后的故事是什么呢？
So Nomad List started because I was in Chiang Mai in Thailand, which is now the second city here.
所以Nomad List开始是因为我在泰国清迈，现在是这里的第二个城市。
1:41:05 And I was working on my laptop.
我正在用我的笔记本电脑工作。
I met other Nomads there and I was like, “Okay, this seems like a cool thing to do, working on your laptop in a different country, kind of travel around.” But back then the internet everywhere was very slow.
我在那里遇到了其他游牧民族，我当时想，“好吧，这似乎是一件很酷的事情，在不同的国家使用你的笔记本电脑工作，有点像四处旅行。”但当时各地的互联网速度都非常慢。
So the internet was fast in, for example, Holland or United States, but in a lot of parts in South America or Asia, it was very slow like 0.5 megabits.
例如，在荷兰或美国，互联网速度很快，但在南美洲或亚洲的许多地方，速度非常慢，只有 0.5 兆比特。
So you couldn’t watch a YouTube video.
所以你无法观看 YouTube 视频。
1:41:37 Thailand weirdly had quite fast internet, but I wanted to find other cities where I could go to work on my laptop, whatever and travel.
奇怪的是，泰国的互联网速度相当快，但我想找到其他城市，在那里我可以用我的笔记本电脑去工作，无论如何，然后去旅行。
But we needed fast internet, so I was like, “Let’s crowdsource this information with a spreadsheet.” And I also needed to know the cost of living because I didn’t have a lot of money.
但我们需要快速的互联网，所以我想，“让我们用电子表格众包这些信息。”我还需要知道生活费用，因为我没有很多钱。
I had $500 a month.
我每个月有 500 美元。
So I to find a place where the rent was $200 per month or something where I had some money that I could actually rent something and there was Nomad List and it still runs.
所以我找到了一个每月租金为 200 美元的地方，或者我有一些钱可以实际租用一些东西的地方，并且有 Nomad List 并且它仍在运行。
I think it’s now almost 10 years.
我想现在已经快10年了。
So it’s just to describe how it works.
所以它只是描述它是如何工作的。
1:42:09 I’m looking at Chiang Mai here.
我现在正在看清迈。
There’s a total score.
有总分。
It’s ranked number two.
它排名第二。
Yeah, that’s like a Nomad score.
是的，这就像 Nomad 的分数。
4.82 by members, but it’s looking at the internet.
会员评分4.82，但它是在互联网上进行的。
1:42:17 In this case it’s fast.
在这种情况下它很快。
Yeah.
是的。
Fun, temperature, humidity, air quality, safety, food safety, crime, racism or lack of crime, lack of racism, educational level, power grid, vulnerability to climate change, income level.
乐趣、温度、湿度、空气质量、安全、食品安全、犯罪、种族主义或没有犯罪、没有种族主义、教育水平、电网、对气候变化的脆弱性、收入水平。
It’s a little much.
有点多了。
English.
英语。
1:42:41 It’s awesome.
太棒了。
It’s awesome.
太棒了。
Walkability.
步行性。
I keep adding stuff.
我不断地添加东西。
Because for certain groups of people, certain things really matter and this is really cool.
因为对于某些人群来说，某些事情确实很重要，这真的很酷。
1:42:45 Happiness.
幸福。
I’d love to ask you about that.
我很想问你这个问题。
Night life, free wifi, AC, female friendly, freedom of speech.
夜生活、免费无线网络、空调、女性友好、言论自由。
Not so good in Thailand.
泰国的情况不太好。
Values derived from national statistics.
数值来自国家统计数据。
1:43:00 I like how that one has-
我喜欢那个人的方式——
I need to do that because the data sets are usually national.
我需要这样做，因为数据集通常是全国性的。
1:43:04 They’re not on city level.
他们不在城市层面。
So I don’t know about the freedom of speech between Bangkok or Chiang Mai.
所以我不知道曼谷和清迈之间的言论自由情况。
I know them in Thailand.
我在泰国认识他们。
This is really fascinating.
这真是令人着迷。
1:43:12 So this is for city, is basically rating all the different things that matter to you, internet.
这是针对城市的，基本上是对互联网等对你来说重要的所有不同事物进行评级。
And this is all crowdsourced.
而这一切都是众包的。
Well, so it started crowdsource, but then I realized that you can download more accurate data sets from public source like World Bank.
好吧，所以它开始了众包，但后来我意识到你可以从世界银行等公共来源下载更准确的数据集。
1:43:21 They have a lot of public data sets, United Nations and you can download a lot of data there, which you can freely use.
他们有很多公共数据集，联合国，你可以在那里下载很多数据，你可以自由使用。
I started getting problems across with data where for example, people from India, they really love India and they would submit the best scores for everything in India and not just one person, but a lot of people they would love to pump India.
我开始遇到数据问题，例如，来自印度的人，他们真的很喜欢印度，他们会为印度的一切提交最好的分数，而不仅仅是一个人，而是很多他们愿意为印度加油的人。
And I’m like, “I love India too, but that’s not valid data.”
我想，“我也喜欢印度，但这不是有效的数据。”
1:43:55 So you started getting discrepancies in the data between where people were from and stuff.
所以你开始发现人们来自哪里和事物之间的数据存在差异。
So I started switching to data sets and now it’s mostly data sets, but one thing that’s still crowdsourced is people add where they are, they add their travels to their profile and I use that data to see which places are upcoming and which places are popular now.
所以我开始转向数据集，现在主要是数据集，但仍然众包的一件事是人们添加他们在哪里，他们将他们的旅行添加到他们的个人资料中，我使用这些数据来查看哪些地方即将到来以及哪些地方现在很受欢迎。
So about half the ranking you see here is based on actual digital nomads who are there.
因此，您在这里看到的排名大约有一半是基于那里的实际数字游牧民。
You can click on a city, you can click on people and you can see the people, the users that are actually there.
你可以点击一个城市，你可以点击人们，你可以看到那里的人，即实际存在的用户。
And it’s like 30,000, 40,000 members.
大约有 30,000、40,000 名会员。
So these people are in Austin now and…
所以这些人现在在奥斯汀并且......
1,800 remote workers in Austin now, of which eight plus members checked in, members who will be here soon and go…
奥斯汀现在有 1,800 名远程工作人员，其中 8 多名成员已签到，成员很快就会到达并离开……
1:44:29 This is amazing.
这太棒了。
Yeah.
是的。
1:44:36 So we have meetups.
所以我们有聚会。
So people organize their own meetups and we have about I think 30 per month.
所以人们组织自己的聚会，我想每个月大约有 30 次。
So it’s like one meetup a day and I don’t do anything.
所以这就像一天一次聚会，我什么也没做。
They organize themselves.
他们自己组织起来。
So it’s a whole black box, it just runs and I don’t do a lot on it.
所以它是一个完整的黑匣子，它只是运行，我没有做太多事情。
It pulls data from everywhere and it just works.
它从各处提取数据并且可以正常工作。
Cons of Austin is too expensive, very sweating, humid now, difficult to make friends.
奥斯汀的缺点是太贵，很出汗，现在潮湿，很难交朋友。
Difficult to make friends.
很难交朋友。
1:45:00 Interesting, right?
有趣，对吧？
I didn’t know that.
我不知道。
Difficult to make friends.
很难交朋友。
In Austin.
在奥斯汀。
But this all crowd source but mostly it’s pros.
但这都是众包，但大部分都是专业人士。
Yeah.
是的。
1:45:07 Austin’s very good.
奥斯汀非常好。
Pretty safe, fast internet.
非常安全、快速的互联网。
I don’t understand why it says not safe for women.
我不明白为什么它说对女性不安全。
1:45:09 Check the data set.
检查数据集。
It feels safe.
感觉很安全。
The problem with a lot of places like United States is that it depends per area.
像美国这样的很多地方的问题在于，这取决于每个地区。
Yeah.
是的。
So if you get city level data or nation level data, it’s like Brazil is the worst because the range in safe and wealthy and not safe is huge.
因此，如果你获得城市级数据或国家级数据，就会发现巴西是最差的，因为安全、富裕和不安全的范围很大。
1:45:18 So you can’t say many things about Brazil.
所以关于巴西你不能说太多。
So once they actually show up to the city, how do you figure out what area, where to get fast internet?
因此，一旦他们真正来到这座城市，您如何确定哪些区域、哪里可以获得快速互联网？
1:45:31 For example, for me it’s consistently a struggle to figure out.
例如，对我来说，这一直是一个很难弄清楚的事情。
Hotels with fast wifi, for example.
例如，拥有快速无线网络的酒店。
Okay, okay.
好吧，好吧。
I show up to a city, there’s a lot of fascinating puzzles and I haven’t figured out a way to actually solve this puzzle.
我来到一座城市，那里有很多令人着迷的谜题，但我还没有找到真正解决这个谜题的方法。
When I show up to a city, figuring out where I can get fast internet connection, and for podcasting purposes, where I can find a place with a table that’s quiet.
当我出现在一个城市时，想知道在哪里可以获得快速的互联网连接，并且出于播客的目的，我可以在哪里找到一个有安静桌子的地方。
Right.
正确的。
1:46:04 Yeah.
是的。
That’s not easy.
这并不容易。
Construction sounds.
施工声音。
All kinds of sounds.
各种声音。
1:46:07 You get to learn about all the sources of sounds in the world and also the quality of the room because the more…
您可以了解世界上所有声音的来源以及房间的质量，因为越多……
The emptier the room, and if it’s just walls without any curtains or any of this kind of stuff, then there’s echoes in the room.
房间越空，如果只是墙壁，没有任何窗帘或任何此类东西，那么房间里就会有回声。
Anyway, but you figure out that a lot of hotels don’t have tables.
不管怎样，但你发现很多酒店都没有桌子。
They don’t have normal…
他们没有正常的...
It’s this weird desk, right?
这是这张奇怪的桌子，对吧？
Yeah.
是的。
It’s not a center table.
这不是中间的桌子。
Yeah.
是的。
1:46:33 And if you want to get a nicer hotel where it’s more spacious and so on, they usually have these boutique fancy looking like modernist tables that don’t…
如果你想住一家更好、更宽敞的酒店等等，他们通常有这些精品店，看起来像现代主义的桌子，但不……
Yeah.
是的。
It’s too design-y.
太有设计感了。
It’s too design-y.
太有设计感了。
1:46:44 They’re not really real tables.
它们并不是真正的桌子。
What if you get IKEA?
如果你买了宜家怎么办？
Buy IKEA?
买宜家？
Yeah.
是的。
1:46:50 Before you arrive, you order an IKEA.
在抵达之前，您订购了宜家。
Nomads do this.
游牧民族就是这么做的。
They get desks.
他们有桌子。
I feel like you should be able to show up to a place and have the desk unless you stay in there for a long time.
我觉得你应该能够出现在一个地方并拥有办公桌，除非你在那里待很长时间。
1:46:54 Just the entire assembly, all that.
只是整个装配，所有这些。
Airbnb is so unreliable.
Airbnb 太不靠谱了。
The range in quality that you get is huge.
您获得的质量范围很大。
Hotels have a lot of problems, pros and cons.
酒店有很多问题，有优点也有缺点。
Hotels have the problem that the pictures somehow never have good representative pictures of what’s actually going to be in the room.
酒店面临的问题是，这些图片永远无法很好地代表房间内的实际情况。
And that’s a problem.
这是一个问题。
1:47:19 Fake photos, man.
假照片，伙计。
If I could have the kind of data you have on Nomad List for hotels.
如果我能获得您在酒店游牧名单上的数据。
Yeah, man.
是的，伙计。
And I feel like you can make a lot of money on that too.
我觉得你也可以赚很多钱。
Yeah, the booking fees, affiliate, right?
是的，预订费，附属机构，对吧？
1:47:30 I thought about this idea because we have the same problem.
我想到这个想法是因为我们有同样的问题。
I go to hotels and there’s specific ones that are very good and I know now the chains and stuff, but even if you go to…
我去酒店，有一些特别好的酒店，我现在知道连锁店之类的东西，但即使你去……
Some chains are very bad in a specific city and very good in other cities.
有些连锁店在某个特定城市非常糟糕，而在其他城市则非常好。
And each individual hotel has a lot of kinds of rooms.
而且每个酒店都有很多种房间。
1:47:44 Some are more expensive, some are cheaper and so on.
有的比较贵，有的比较便宜等等。
But you can get the details of what’s in the room, what’s the actual layout of the room, what is the view of the room.
但你可以得到房间里有什么的详细信息，房间的实际布局是什么，房间的景色是什么。
3D scan it.
3D 扫描它。
I feel like as a hotel you can win a lot.
我觉得作为一家酒店你可以赢得很多。
1:47:58 So first you create a service that allows you to have high resolution data about a hotel.
因此，首先您创建一项服务，让您能够获得有关酒店的高分辨率数据。
Then one hotel signs up for that.
然后一家酒店报名参加。
I would 100% use that website to look for a hotel instead of the crappy alternatives that don’t give any information.
我 100% 会使用该网站来寻找酒店，而不是使用不提供任何信息的蹩脚替代品。
And I feel like there’ll be this pressure for all the hotels to join that site and you can make a shit ton of money because hotels make a lot of money.
我觉得所有酒店都会面临加入该网站的压力，你可以赚很多钱，因为酒店赚很多钱。
I think it’s true, but the problem is with these hotels, it’s same with airline industry.
我认为这是真的，但问题在于这些酒店，航空业也是如此。
1:48:24 Why does every airline website suck when you try book a flight?
当您尝试预订航班时，为什么每个航空公司的网站都很糟糕？
It’s very strange.
这很奇怪。
Why does it have to suck?
为什么一定要吸？
Obviously there’s competition here.
显然这里存在竞争。
Why doesn’t the best website win?
为什么最好的网站没有获胜？
What’s the explanation for that?
对此有何解释？
Man, I’ve thought about this for years.
伙计，我已经思考这个问题很多年了。
1:48:36 So I think it’s like I have to book the flight anyway.
所以我想无论如何我都必须预订航班。
I know there’s a route that they take and I need to book, for example, Qatar Airlines and I need to get through this process.
我知道他们有一条航线，我需要预订，例如卡塔尔航空，我需要完成这个过程。
And with hotels, similar.
与酒店类似。
You need a hotel anyway.
无论如何，你需要一家酒店。
So do you have time to figure out the best one?
那么您有时间找出最好的一个吗？
Not really.
并不真地。
You kind of just need to get the place booked and you need to get the flight and you’ll go through the pain of this process.
你只需要预订座位并获得航班，你就会经历这个过程的痛苦。
And that’s why this process always sucks so much with hotels and airline websites and stuff because they don’t have an incentive to improve it because generally only for a super upper segment of the market I think like super high luxury, it affects the actual booking.
这就是为什么这个过程对于酒店和航空公司网站来说总是很糟糕，因为他们没有动力去改进它，因为我认为通常只针对超高端市场，比如超豪华酒店，它会影响实际的预订。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
1:49:17 I think that’s an interesting theory.
我认为这是一个有趣的理论。
I think that must be a different theory.
我认为这一定是一个不同的理论。
My theory would be that great software engineers are not allowed to make changes.
我的理论是伟大的软件工程师不允许做出改变。
Basically there’s some kind of bureaucracy,.
基本上存在某种官僚机构。
There’s way too many managers.
经理太多了。
There’s a lot of bureaucracy and great engineers show up, they try to work there and they’re not allowed to really make any contributions and then they leave.
有很多官僚机构和伟大的工程师出现，他们试图在那里工作，但他们不被允许真正做出任何贡献，然后他们就离开了。
And so they have a lot of mediocre software engineers.
所以他们有很多平庸的软件工程师。
They’re not really interested in improving any other thing.
他们对改进任何其他事情并不真正感兴趣。
1:49:45 And literally they would like to improve the stuff, but the bureaucracy of the place, plus all the bosses, all the high up people are not technical people probably.
从字面上看，他们想改进这些东西，但是这个地方的官僚机构，加上所有的老板，所有的高层人士可能都不是技术人员。
They don’t know much about web development.
他们对网络开发了解不多。
They don’t know much about programming, so they just don’t give any respect.
他们对编程不太了解，所以他们不给予任何尊重。
You have to give the freedom and the respect to great engineers as they try to do great things.
当伟大的工程师尝试做伟大的事情时，你必须给予他们自由和尊重。
That feels like an explanation.
感觉像是一个解释。
If you were a great programmer, would you want to work at America Airlines or…
如果您是一名出色的程序员，您想在美国航空公司工作还是……
No.
不。
1:50:16 No.
不。
I’m torn on that because I actually, as somebody who loves program, would love to work at America Airlines so I can make the thing better.
我对此感到很矛盾，因为实际上，作为一个热爱计划的人，我很想在美国航空工作，这样我就能让事情变得更好。
Yeah.
是的。
1:50:27 But I would work there just to fix it for myself.
但我会在那里工作只是为了自己解决这个问题。
Yeah, for yourself.
是的，为了你自己。
1:50:30 And then you just know how much suffering you’re alleviated, how much frustration-
然后你就会知道你减轻了多少痛苦，多少挫败感——
For all society.
为了全社会。
You imagine all the thousands, maybe millions of people that go to that website and have to click a million times.
您可以想象有成千上万甚至数百万人访问该网站并且必须点击一百万次。
1:50:38 It often doesn’t work.
它经常不起作用。
It’s clunky, all that kind of stuff.
它很笨重，诸如此类。
You’re making their life just so much better.
您正在让他们的生活变得更加美好。
Much better.
好多了。
Yeah.
是的。
1:50:50 But there must be an explanation that has to do with managers and bureaucracies.
但必须有一个与管理者和官僚机构有关的解释。
I think it’s money.
我认为是钱。
1:50:54 Do you know Booking.com?
你知道Booking.com吗？
Sure.
当然。
So it’s the biggest booking website in the world.
所以它是世界上最大的预订网站。
1:50:58 It’s Dutch actually.
其实是荷兰语。
And they have teams because my friend worked there.
他们有团队，因为我的朋友在那里工作。
They have teams for a specific part of the website, like a 10 by 10 pixels area where they run tests on this.
他们为网站的特定部分（例如 10 x 10 像素的区域）设立了团队，并在此区域上进行测试。
So they run tests and they’re famous for this stuff like, “Oh, there’s only one room left,” which is red letters like, “One room left.
所以他们进行了测试，他们以这样的东西而闻名，比如“哦，只剩下一个房间”，这是红色的字母，比如“剩下一个房间。
Book now.” And they got a fine from the European Union about this.
现在就预订。”他们因此受到了欧盟的罚款。
Kind of interesting.
有点有趣。
1:51:21 So they have all these teams and they run the test for 24 hours.
所以他们拥有所有这些团队，并进行 24 小时的测试。
They go to sleep, they wake up next day, they come to the office and they see, “Okay, this performed better.” This website has become a monster, but it’s the most revenue generating hotel booking website in the world.
他们去睡觉，第二天醒来，来到办公室，他们发现，“好吧，这表现更好了。”这个网站已经成为一个怪物，但它是世界上创收最多的酒店预订网站。
It’s number one.
这是第一。
So that shows that it’s not about user experience.
这表明这与用户体验无关。
It’s about, I don’t know, about making more money and not every company, but if they’re optimizing, it’s a public company.
我不知道，这是为了赚更多的钱，而不是每家公司，但如果他们正在优化，那就是一家上市公司。
If they’re optimizing for money…
如果他们为了金钱而优化……
But you can optimize for money by disrupting, making it way better.
但你可以通过颠覆来优化资金，使其变得更好。
Yeah, but this always started…
是的，但这总是开始......
1:51:50 They start with disrupting.
他们从破坏开始。
Booking all started as a startup, 1997, and then they become the old shit again.
Booking all 是从 1997 年的一家初创公司开始的，然后他们又变成了老古董。
Uber now starts to become like a taxi again.
Uber 现在开始再次变得像出租车一样。
It was very good in the beginning.
一开始情况非常好。
Now it’s kind like taxis now in many places are better.
现在很多地方的出租车都更好了。
They’re nicer than Ubers.
他们比 Uber 更好。
So it’s like the circle.
所以就像圆圈一样。
I think some of it is also just it’s hard to have ultra competent engineers.
我认为其中一些原因还在于很难拥有超级有能力的工程师。
1:52:08 Stripe seems like a trivial thing, but it’s hard to pull off.
Stripe看起来是一件微不足道的事情，但做起来却很难。
Why was it so hard for Amazon to have buy with one click, which I think is a genius idea.
为什么亚马逊这么难一键购买，我认为这是一个天才的想法。
Make buying easier.
让购买变得更容易。
Make it as frictionless as possible.
使其尽可能无摩擦。
Just click a button, one scene, you bought the thing, as opposed to most of the web was a lot of clicking and it often doesn’t work like with the airlines.
只需点击一个按钮，一个场景，你就买了东西，而不是大多数网络都需要大量点击，而且它通常不像航空公司那样运作。
You remember the forms with delete?
你还记得带有删除的表格吗？
1:52:39 You could click next, submit and with 404 or something or your internet would go down, your modem.
你可以点击“下一步”，提交，然后输入 404 或其他错误，否则你的互联网就会瘫痪，你的调制解调器也会瘫痪。
Yeah, man.
是的，伙计。
And I would have an existential crisis.
我会遇到生存危机。
1:52:47 The frustration would take over my whole body and I would just want to quit life for a brief moment there.
挫败感会占据我的整个身体，我只想暂时放弃生活。
Yeah.
是的。
I’m so happy the form stays in Google Chrome now if something goes wrong.
我很高兴如果出现问题，该表单现在仍保留在 Google Chrome 中。
1:52:56 But Google somebody at Google and prove society with that, right?
但谷歌的某个人用它来证明社会，对吗？
Yeah.
是的。
1:53:03 And one of the challenges at Google is to have the freedom to do that.
谷歌面临的挑战之一是拥有这样做的自由。
They don’t anymore.
他们不再这样做了。
There’s a bunch of bureaucracy, yeah.
是的，有很多官僚机构。
At Google.
在谷歌。
There’s so many brilliant, brilliant people there, but it just moves slowly.
那里有很多才华横溢的人，但进展缓慢。
Yeah.
是的。
I wonder why that is and maybe that’s the natural way of a company, but you have people like Elon who rolls in and just fires most of the folks and always push the company to operate as a startup even when it’s already big.
我想知道为什么会这样，也许这就是公司的自然方式，但是像埃隆这样的人进来后就解雇了大多数人，并且总是推动公司以初创公司的方式运营，即使公司已经很大了。
But Apple does this.
但苹果就是这么做的。
1:53:29 I started in business school.
我开始在商学院学习。
Apple does competing product teams that operate as startups.
苹果有作为初创公司运作的竞争产品团队。
So it’s three to five people, they make something, they have multiple teams make the same thing.
所以只有三到五个人，他们制作一些东西，他们有多个团队制作同样的东西。
The best team wins.
最好的球队获胜。
So I think you need to emulate a free market inside a company to make it entrepreneurial.
所以我认为你需要效仿公司内部的自由市场，使其具有创业精神。
And you need entrepreneurial mentality in a company to come up with new ideas and do it better.
公司需要企业家心态才能提出新想法并做得更好。
So one of the things you do really, really well is learn a new thing.
所以你做得非常非常好的一件事就是学习新事物。
1:53:52 You have an idea, you try to build it, and then you learn everything you need to in order to build it.
你有一个想法，你尝试构建它，然后你学习构建它所需的一切。
You have your current skills, but you learn just the minimal amount of stuff.
你拥有当前的技能，但你只学到了很少的东西。
So you’re a good person to ask how do you learn?
所以你是一个很好的人来问你如何学习？
How do you learn quickly and effectively and just the stuff you need?
您如何快速有效地学习并只学到您需要的东西？
Just by way of example, you did a 30 days learning session on 3D where you documented yourself giving yourself only 30 days to learn everything you can about 3D.
举例来说，您进行了为期 30 天的 3D 学习课程，您在其中记录了自己，只给自己 30 天的时间来学习有关 3D 的所有知识。
Yeah, I tried to learn virtual reality because this was same as AI.
是的，我尝试学习虚拟现实，因为这与人工智能相同。
1:54:25 It came up suddenly 2016, 2017 with I think HTC Vive, these big VR glasses before Apple Vision Pro.
它是在 2016 年、2017 年突然出现的，我想是 HTC Vive，这些大型 VR 眼镜在 Apple Vision Pro 之前。
And I was like, “Oh, this is going to be big so I need to learn this.” And I know nothing about 3D.
我当时想，“哦，这会很重要，所以我需要学习这个。”而且我对 3D 一无所知。
I installed I think Unity and Blender and stuff, and I started learning all this stuff because I thought this was a new nascent technology that was going to be big.
我安装了 Unity 和 Blender 之类的东西，然后我开始学习所有这些东西，因为我认为这是一项即将发展壮大的新兴技术。
And if I had the skills for it, I could use this to build stuff.
如果我有这方面的技能，我可以用它来构建东西。
And so I think with learning, for me, I think learning is so funny because people always ask me, “How do you learn to code?
因此，我认为对于我来说，学习非常有趣，因为人们总是问我：“你如何学习编码？
Should I learn to code?” And I’m like, “I don’t know.” Every day I’m learning.
我应该学习编码吗？”我说：“我不知道。”我每天都在学习。
It’s kind of cliche, but every day I’m learning new stuff.
这有点陈词滥调，但我每天都在学习新东西。
1:55:08 So every day I’m searching on Google or asking out ChatGPT how to do this thing, how to do this thing.
所以我每天都在Google上搜索或者询问ChatGPT如何做这个事情，如何做这个事情。
Every day I’m getting better at my skill.
我的技能每天都在进步。
So you never stop learning.
所以你永远不会停止学习。
So the whole concept of how do you learn, well, you never end.
所以你如何学习的整个概念，嗯，你永远不会结束。
So where do you want to be?
那么你想去哪里？
Do you want know a little bit?
你想了解一点吗？
Do you want to know a lot?
你想了解很多吗？
Do you want to do it for your whole life?
你想一辈子就这样吗？
1:55:25 So I think taking action is the best step to learn.
所以我认为采取行动是学习的最佳步骤。
So making things.
所以做东西。
You know nothing, just start making things.
你什么都不知道，就开始做东西。
Okay, so how to make a website.
好了，接下来就是如何制作一个网站了。
Search how to make a website or nowadays you ask ChatGPT, “How do I make a website?
搜索如何制作一个网站，或者现在你问 ChatGPT，“我如何制作一个网站？
Where do I start?” It generates codes for you.
我该从哪里开始呢？”它为您生成代码。
Copy the code, put it in a file, save it.
复制代码，将其放入文件中，保存。
Open it in Google Chrome or whatever.
在 Google Chrome 或其他任何设备中打开它。
You have a website and then you start tweaking with it and you start, “Okay, how do I add a button?
你有一个网站，然后你开始调整它，你开始，“好吧，我如何添加一个按钮？
How do I add AI features nowadays?” So it’s like by taking action, you can learn stuff much faster than reading books or tutorials.
现在如何添加人工智能功能？”所以，就像通过采取行动，你可以比阅读书籍或教程更快地学习东西。
Actually I’m always curious.
其实我一直很好奇。
1:55:57 Let me ask perplexity.
顺便问一下困惑。
How do I make a website?
我如何制作一个网站？
I’m just curious what it would say.
我只是好奇它会说什么。
I hope it goes with really basic vanilla solutions.
我希望它能与真正基本的普通解决方案相匹配。
Define your website’s purpose, choose a domain name, select a web hosting provider.
定义您网站的目的，选择域名，选择网络托管提供商。
Choose a website, a builder or a CMS website.
选择网站、构建器或 CMS 网站。
Build a platform.
搭建平台。
Wix.
维克斯。
It tells Wix or Squarespace is what I said.
它告诉Wix或者Squarespace就是我说的。
1:56:20 Make a landing page.
制作一个登陆页面。
How do I say if I want to program it myself?
如果我想自己编程该怎么说？
1:56:23 Design your website, create essential pages.
设计您的网站，创建必要的页面。
Yeah.
是的。
1:56:29 Even tells you to launch it, right?
甚至告诉你启动它，对吗？
Start promoting it.
开始推广它。
Launch your website.
启动您的网站。
1:56:31 Well, you could do that.
嗯，你可以这么做。
Yeah, but this is literally it.
是的，但这就是字面上的意思。
If you want to make a website.
如果你想做一个网站。
This is the basic like Google Analytics.
这是像 Google Analytics 一样的基本功能。
But you can’t make Nomad Lists with this web.
但你不能用这个网络创建游牧列表。
You can.
你可以。
With Wix.
与维克斯。
No, you can get pretty far, I think.
不，我认为你可以走得很远。
You get pretty far.
你已经走得很远了。
Website builders are pretty advanced.
网站建设者非常先进。
1:56:45 All you need is a grid of images that are clickable that open another page.
您所需要的只是一个可单击打开另一个页面的图像网格。
Yeah.
是的。
You can get quite far.
你可以走得很远。
How do I learn to program?
我如何学习编程？
1:56:53 Choose a programming language to start with.
选择一种编程语言作为开始。
FreeCodeCamp is good.
FreeCodeCamp 不错。
Work through resources thematically.
按主题处理资源。
1:57:07 Practice coding regularly for 30, 60 minutes a day.
每天定期练习编码 30、60 分钟。
Consistency is key.
一致性是关键。
Join programming communities like Reddit’s…
加入 Reddit 等编程社区……
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, it’s pretty good.
是的，非常好。
Yeah.
是的。
It’s pretty good.
非常好。
So I think it’s a very good starting ground because imagine you know nothing and you want to make a website, you want to make a startup.
所以我认为这是一个非常好的起点，因为想象一下你什么都不知道，但你想建立一个网站，你想创办一家初创公司。
1:57:21 That’s why, man, the power of AI for education is going to be insane.
这就是为什么人工智能在教育领域的力量将会变得疯狂。
People anywhere can ask this question and start building stuff.
任何地方的人都可以问这个问题并开始构建东西。
Yeah, it clarifies it for sure.
是的，它确实澄清了这一点。
1:57:37 And just start building, keep build, build.
然后开始构建，继续构建，构建。
Actually apply the thing, whether it’s AI or any of the programming for web development.
实际应用这些东西，无论是人工智能还是任何网络开发编程。
Just have a project in mind, which I love the idea of 12 startups in 12 months or build a project almost every day.
只要心里有一个项目，我喜欢在 12 个月内创办 12 家初创公司或几乎每天都建立一个项目的想法。
Just build a thing and get it to work and finish it every single day.
只需构建一个东西并让它工作并每天完成它。
That’s a cool experiment.
这是一个很酷的实验。
I think that was the inspiration.
我认为这就是灵感。
1:58:05 There was a girl who did 160 websites in 160 days or something, literally mini websites, and she learned to code that way.
有一个女孩在 160 天之内创建了 160 个网站，实际上是迷你网站，她学会了用这种方式编码。
So I think it’s good to set yourself challenges.
所以我认为给自己设定挑战是件好事。
You can go to some coding bootcamp, but I don’t think they actually work.
你可以去一些编码训练营，但我认为它们实际上不起作用。
I think it’s better to do for me out of the dark self-learning and setting yourself challenges and just getting in.
我认为对我来说最好是走出黑暗的自学，给自己设定挑战，然后就进入。
But you need discipline.
但你需要纪律。
You need discipline to keep doing it.
你需要纪律才能继续这样做。
And coding, coding is very…
编码，编码非常……
It’s a steep learning curve to get in.
这是一个陡峭的学习曲线。
It’s very annoying.
这很烦人。
Working with computers is very annoying, so it can be hard for people to keep doing it.
使用计算机非常烦人，因此人们很难继续这样做。
Yeah.
是的。
1:58:45 That thing of just keep doing it and don’t quit, that urgency that’s required to finish a thing.
继续做而不放弃，完成一件事所需要的紧迫感。
That’s why it’s really powerful when you documented this, the creation of Hood Maps or a working prototype that there’s just a constant frustration, I guess.
这就是为什么当你记录这一点时它真的很强大，我猜胡德地图的创建或工作原型只是不断的挫败感。
It’s like, “How do I do this?” And then you look it up and you’re like, “Okay.” You have to interpret the different options you have and then just try it.
就像“我该怎么做？”然后你查了一下，你会说：“好吧。”你必须解释你所拥有的不同选择，然后尝试一下。
And then there’s a dopamine rush of like, “It works.
然后多巴胺就会激增，“这有效。
Cool.”
酷。”
Man, it’s amazing.
伙计，太棒了。
1:59:16 And I live streamed it.
我现场直播了它。
It’s on YouTube and stuff.
YouTube 之类的都有。
People can watch it and it’s amazing when things work.
人们可以观看它，当一切正常时，这真是太神奇了。
Look, it’s just amazing that I don’t look far ahead.
瞧，令人惊奇的是我没有向前看。
So I only look, okay, what’s the next problem to solve?
所以我只是看看，好吧，下一个要解决的问题是什么？
And then the next problem.
然后是下一个问题。
And at the end you have a whole app or website or thing.
最后你就拥有了一个完整的应用程序或网站或东西。
But I think most people look way too far ahead.
但我认为大多数人都看得太远了。
It’s like this poster again.
又像这张海报了。
You don’t know hard it’s going to be so you should only look for the next thing, the next little challenge, the next step, and then see where you end up.
你不知道这会很难，所以你应该只寻找下一件事，下一个小挑战，下一步，然后看看你最终会在哪里。
And assume it’s going to be easy.
并假设这会很容易。
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
1:59:52 Be naive about it because you’re going to have very difficult problems.
对此要天真，因为你会遇到非常困难的问题。
A lot of the big problems won’t be even technology, will be public.
许多大问题甚至不是技术问题，而是公开的。
Maybe people don’t like your website.
也许人们不喜欢你的网站。
You’ll get canceled for a website for example.
例如，您可能会因某个网站而被取消。
A lot of things can happen.
很多事情都可能发生。
What’s it like building in public you do openly where you’re just iterating quickly and you’re getting people’s feedback?
在公开场合进行快速迭代并获得人们的反馈是什么感觉？
2:00:06 So there’s the power of the crowdsourcing, but there’s also the negative aspects of people being able to criticize.
因此，众包的力量是存在的，但也存在人们能够批评的负面影响。
So man, I think haters are actually good because I think a lot of haters have good points and it takes stepping away from the emotion of your website sucks because blah, blah, blah.
所以，伙计，我认为仇恨者实际上是好的，因为我认为很多仇恨者都有好的观点，并且需要远离你的网站的情感，因为废话，废话，废话。
2:00:20 And you’re like, “Okay, just remove this.” Your website sucks because personal.
你会说，“好吧，把这个删除吧。”你的网站很糟糕，因为个人化。
What did he say?
他说什么？
Why did he not like it?
他为什么不喜欢呢？
And you figure out, okay, he didn’t like it because the signup was difficult or something or the data.
你会发现，好吧，他不喜欢它，因为注册很困难或者其他什么或者数据。
They say, no, this data is not accurate or something.
他们说，不，这个数据不准确什么的。
I need to improve the quality of data.
我需要提高数据质量。
This hater has a point because it’s dumb to completely ignore your haters.
这个仇恨者有道理，因为完全忽视你的仇恨者是愚蠢的。
And also, man, I think I’ve been there when I was 10 years old or something.
而且，伙计，我想我十岁左右的时候就去过那里了。
You’re on the internet.
你在互联网上。
You’re just shouting crazy stuff.
你只是在喊一些疯狂的东西。
That’s like most of Twitter or half of Twitter.
这就像 Twitter 的大部分或一半。
So you have to take it with a grain of salt.
所以你必须持保留态度。
Yeah, man, you need to grow a very thick skin on Twitter, on X.
是的，伙计，你需要在 Twitter、X 上把脸皮变得很厚。
But I mute a lot of people.
但我让很多人静音。
I found out I muted already 15,000 people recently.
我发现最近我已经把 15,000 人静音了。
I checked,\.
我查了一下，\.
So in 10 years I muted 15,000 people.
所以在 10 年里我让 15,000 人静音。
So that’s like…
所以就像……
That’s one by one manual?
这是一本一本的说明书吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Oh wow.
哦哇。
So 1,500 people per year.
所以每年有 1,500 人。
2:01:19 And I don’t like to block because then they get angry.
我不喜欢阻止，因为那样他们就会生气。
They make a screenshot and they say, “Ah, you blocked me.” So I just mute and it disappear and it’s amazing.
他们制作了屏幕截图，然后说：“啊，你屏蔽了我。”所以我只是静音，它就消失了，这真是太神奇了。
So you mentioned Reddit.
所以你提到了Reddit。
2:01:29 So Hood Maps, did that make it to the front page of Reddit?
那么 Hood Maps 是否登上了 Reddit 的首页？
Yeah.
是的。
2:01:34 Yeah, it did.
是的，确实如此。
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊，是啊。
It did.
确实如此。
It was amazing.
太棒了。
And my server almost went down and I was checking Google Analytics was like 5,000 people on the website or something crazy.
我的服务器几乎瘫痪了，我正在检查 Google Analytics，网站上有 5,000 人，或者有些疯狂的东西。
And it was at night and it was amazing.
那是在晚上，真是太棒了。
Man, I think nowadays, honestly, TikTok, YouTube reels, Instagram reels, a lot of apps get very big from people making TikTok videos about it.
伙计，我认为现在，老实说，TikTok、YouTube reels、Instagram reels，很多应用程序都因为人们制作 TikTok 视频而变得非常大。
So let’s say you make your own app, you can make a video for yourself like, “Oh, I made this app.
假设您制作了自己的应用程序，您可以为自己制作一个视频，例如“哦，我制作了这个应用程序。
This is how it works, blah, blah, blah, and this is why I made it, for example, and this is why you should use it.” And if it’s a good video, it will take off and you will get…
这就是它的工作原理，等等，这就是我制作它的原因，这就是为什么你应该使用它。”如果这是一个好视频，它就会流行起来，你会得到……
Man, I got $20,000 extra per month or something from one TikTok video.
伙计，我每个月能从一个 TikTok 视频中额外获得 20,000 美元之类的收入。
It made a photo guy.
它成为了一个拍照的人。
By you or somebody else by somebody else?
是你做的还是别人做的？
By some random guy.
由某个随机的人。
2:02:19 So there’s all these AI influencers that they write about.
所以他们写了所有这些人工智能影响者。
They show AI apps and then they ask money later when a video goes viral.
他们展示人工智能应用程序，然后当视频疯传时他们要钱。
All I can do, do it again and send me $4,000 or something.
我所能做的，就是再做一次，然后寄给我 4,000 美元之类的。
I’m like, ” Okay.” I did that, for example.
我说：“好吧。”例如，我就是这样做的。
But it works.
但它有效。
TikTok is a very big platform for user acquisition and organic.
TikTok 是一个非常大的用户获取和有机平台。
The best user acquisition I think is organic.
我认为最好的用户获取是有机的。
You don’t need to buy ads.
您不需要购买广告。
You probably don’t have money when you start to buy ads.
当你开始购买广告时，你可能没有钱。
So use organic or write a banger tweets that can make an app take off as well.
因此，使用有机的或写一些精彩的推文也可以让应用程序起飞。
Well, yeah, fundamentally create cool stuff and have just a little bit of a following enough for the cool thing to be noticed.
嗯，是的，从根本上创造很酷的东西，并且只要有一点点追随者就足以让很酷的东西被注意到。
2:02:50 And then it becomes viral if it’s cool enough.
如果它足够酷的话，它就会变得病毒式传播。
Yeah.
是的。
2:03:00 And you don’t need a lot of followers anymore on X and a lot of platforms because TikTok, X, I think it’s Instagram reels also, they have the same algorithm now.
你不再需要在 X 和很多平台上有很多关注者，因为 TikTok、X，我认为它也是 Instagram 的卷轴，他们现在有相同的算法。
It’s not about followers anymore.
这不再是追随者的问题。
It’s about they test your content on a small subset, like 300 people.
他们会在一小部分人（例如 300 人）上测试您的内容。
If they like, it’ll get tested to a thousand people and on and on.
如果他们愿意，就会对一千人进行测试，等等。
So if the thing is good, it will rise anyway.
所以如果东西好的话，无论如何它都会上涨。
It doesn’t matter if you have half a million followers or a thousand followers or more.
如果您有 50 万粉丝、1000 名或更多粉丝，这并不重要。
What’s your philosophy of monetizing, how to make money from the thing you build?
您的货币化理念是什么？如何从您构建的产品中赚钱？
Yeah.
是的。
2:03:27 So a lot of starters, they do free users, so you could sign up and could use an app for free, which it never worked for me well because I think free users generally don’t convert.
所以很多初学者，他们都是免费用户，所以你可以免费注册并使用应用程序，但这对我来说效果不佳，因为我认为免费用户通常不会转化。
And I think if you have VC funding, it makes sense to get free users because you can spend your funding on ads and you can get millions of people come in predictably how much they convert and give them a free trial, whatever, and then they sign up.
我认为，如果你有风险投资资金，那么获得免费用户是有意义的，因为你可以将资金花在广告上，你可以让数百万人进来，可预测他们的转化量，并为他们提供免费试用，等等，然后他们注册。
But you need to have that flow worked out so well for you to make it work that you need…
但你需要让这个流程运作得很好，才能让它发挥你所需要的......
It’s very difficult.
这是非常困难的。
2:03:57 I think it’s best to start and just start asking people for money in the beginning.
我认为最好从一开始就开始向人们要钱。
So show your app, what are you doing on your landing page.
因此，请展示您的应用程序，您在着陆页上正在做什么。
Make a demo, whatever, video.
制作一个演示，无论如何，视频。
And then if you want to use it, pay me money.
然后如果你想使用它，就付钱给我。
Pay $10, $20, $40.
支付 10 美元、20 美元、40 美元。
I would ask more than $10 per month like Netflix, $10 per month.
我会要求每个月10美元以上，像Netflix那样，每月10美元。
But Netflix is giant company.
但 Netflix 是一家大公司。
They can afford to make it so cheap, relatively cheap.
他们有能力把它做得如此便宜，相对便宜。
If you’re an individual like an indie hacker, you are making your own app.
如果您是像独立黑客这样的个人，那么您正在制作自己的应用程序。
You need to make at least $30 or more on a user to make it worth it for you.
您需要从一个用户身上赚取至少 30 美元或更多，才能让您物有所值。
You need to make money.
你需要赚钱。
And it builds a community of people that actually really care about the product.
它建立了一个由真正关心该产品的人们组成的社区。
Also, yeah, making a community like making a Discord is very normal now.
另外，是的，像创建 Discord 这样创建社区现在很正常。
2:04:34 Every AI app has a Discord and you have the developers and the users together in a Discord, and they ask for features.
每个人工智能应用程序都有一个 Discord，开发者和用户都在 Discord 中，他们要求提供功能。
They build together.
他们一起建造。
It’s very normal now.
现在很正常。
And you need to imagine if you’re starting out, getting a thousand users is quite difficult.
你需要想象一下，如果你刚开始，获得一千个用户是相当困难的。
Getting a thousand pages is quite difficult.
获得一千页是相当困难的。
And if you charge them like $30, you have 30K a month and it’s a lot of money.
如果你向他们收取 30 美元的费用，那么你每个月就有 3 万美元，这是很多钱。
That’s enough to…
这足以……
Live a good life.
过上美好的生活。
Yeah, live a pretty good life.
是啊，过着美好的生活。
2:05:01 That could be a lot of costs associated with hosting.
这可能是与托管相关的大量成本。
Yeah.
是的。
2:05:04 So that’s another thing.
所以那是另一回事了。
I make sure my profit margins are very high, so I try to keep the costs very low.
我确保我的利润率非常高，所以我努力将成本保持在非常低的水平。
I don’t hire people.
我不雇人。
I try to negotiate with AI vendors now like, “Can you make it cheaper?” Which I discovered this.
我现在尝试与人工智能供应商谈判，比如“你能把它做得更便宜吗？”我发现了这一点。
You can just email companies and say, “Can you give me discount?
你可以给公司发电子邮件说：“你能给我折扣吗？
It’s too expensive.” And they say, “Sure, 50%.” I’m like, “Wow, very good.” And I didn’t know this.
太贵了。”他们说：“当然，50%。”我说：“哇，非常好。”我不知道这一点。
You can just ask.
你可以直接问。
And especially now it’s kind of recession, you can ask companies like, “I need a discount.” You don’t need to be asshole, about it.
尤其是现在经济衰退，你可以问公司，“我需要折扣。”对此，你不需要表现得像个混蛋。
Say, “I need a discount or I need to go maybe to another company.
说：“我需要折扣，或者我可能需要去另一家公司。
Maybe a discount here and there?” And they say, “Sure.” A lot of them will say yes, 25% discount, 50% discount.
也许到处都有折扣？”他们说：“当然。”很多人会说是的，25% 折扣，50% 折扣。
Because you think the price on the website is the price of the API or something.
因为你认为网站上的价格就是API的价格什么的。
It’s not.
它不是。
And also you’re a public facing person.
而且你也是一个面向公众的人。
That helps also.
这也有帮助。
And there’s love and good vibes that you put out into the world.
你向世界传递出爱和良好的氛围。
2:05:57 You’re actually legitimately trying to build cool stuff.
你实际上是在合法地尝试构建很酷的东西。
So a lot of companies probably want to associate with you because you’re trying to do.
所以很多公司可能想与你合作，因为你正在努力这样做。
Yeah, it’s like a secret hack.
是的，这就像一个秘密黑客。
2:06:06 But I think even without….
但我认为即使没有……
Secret hack.
秘密黑客。
2:06:08 Be a good person.
做一个好人。
It depends how much discount they will give.
这取决于他们会给多少折扣。
2:06:10 They’ll maybe give more, but that’s why you should shit post on Twitter, so you get discounts maybe.
他们可能会给予更多，但这就是为什么你应该在 Twitter 上发帖，这样你也许会得到折扣。
Yeah.
是的。
2:06:19 Yeah.
是的。
And also when it’s crowdsourced, paying does prevent spam or help prevent spam.
而且，当它是众包时，付费确实可以防止垃圾邮件或有助于防止垃圾邮件。
Also.
还。
2:06:29 Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
It gives you high quality users.
它为您提供高质量的用户。
High quality users.
高品质用户。
Free users are, sorry, but they’re horrible.
抱歉，免费用户确实很糟糕。
2:06:32 It’s just millions of people especially with AI startups.
这只是数百万人，尤其是人工智能初创公司。
You get a lot of abuse, so you get millions of people from anywhere just abusing your app, just hacking it and whatever.
你会受到很多滥用，所以你会看到数百万人从任何地方滥用你的应用程序，只是破解它等等。
There’s something on the internet.
互联网上有一些东西。
2:06:44 You mentioned like 4Chan discovered Hood Maps.
你提到 4Chan 发现了 Hood Maps。
Yeah, but I love 4Chan.
是的，但我喜欢 4Chan。
2:06:49 I don’t love 4Chan, but you know what I mean.
我不喜欢 4Chan，但你知道我的意思。
They’re so crazy, especially back then.
他们太疯狂了，尤其是在那个时候。
It’s kind of funny what they do.
他们所做的事情很有趣。
Actually, what is it?
事实上，它是什么？
2:06:58 This new documentary on Netflix, Anti-Social Network or something like that.
Netflix、反社交网络或类似网站上的这部新纪录片。
That really was fascinating.
这真的很令人着迷。
Just 4Chan, just the spirit of the thing, 4Chan.
只是 4Chan，只是 4Chan 的精神。
People misunderstand 4Chan.
人们误解了4Chan。
It’s so much about freedom and also the humor involved in fucking with the system and fucking the man.
这非常关乎自由，也关乎与系统和男人的幽默。
That’s it.
就是这样。
2:07:18 It’s just anti-system.
这只是反系统。
But for fun.
但为了好玩。
2:07:20 The dark aspect of it is you’re having fun, you’re doing anti-system stuff, but the Nazis always show up.
它的黑暗面是你在玩得很开心，你在做反体制的事情，但纳粹总是出现。
That shift started happening.
这种转变开始发生。
It’s drifting somehow.
它以某种方式漂移。
2:07:32 Yeah.
是的。
Like school shootings and stuff.
比如校园枪击事件之类的。
2:07:34 So it’s a very difficult topic.
所以这是一个非常困难的话题。
But I do know, especially early on, I think 2010, I would go to 4Chan for fun and they would post crazy offensive stuff.
但我确实知道，尤其是在早期，我想 2010 年，我会去 4Chan 找乐子，他们会发布疯狂的攻击性内容。
And this was just to scare off people.
而这只是为了吓唬人。
So we’d show to other people, say, “Hey, do you know this internet website 4Chan?
所以我们会向其他人展示，说：“嘿，你知道这个互联网网站 4Chan 吗？
Just check it out.” And they’d be, “Dude, what the fuck is that?” I’m like, “No, no, you don’t understand.
就检查一下。”他们会说，“伙计，那是什么鬼？”我说：“不，不，你不明白。
That’s to scare you away.
那是为了吓跑你。
But actually when you go through scroll, there’s deep conversations.” And they would already be…
但实际上，当你浏览卷轴时，会发现一些深入的对话。”他们已经是……
This was like a normie filter to stop.
这就像一个要停止的标准过滤器。
So kind of cool.
太酷了。
But yeah.
但是是的。
It goes dark.
天黑了。
They’re like stop.
他们就像停下来一样。
2:08:00 So, cool, but yeah.
所以，很酷，但是是的。
It goes dark.
天黑了。
It goes dark, yeah.
天黑了，是的。
And if you have those people show up, they’ll for the fun of it, do a bunch of racist things and all that kind of stuff you were saying.
如果你让那些人出现，他们会为了好玩，做一些种族主义的事情以及你所说的所有事情。
Yeah.
是的。
2:08:11 I think it was never…
我想这从来都不是……
Man, I’m not a fortune, but it was always about provoking.
伙计，我不是什么财富，但它总是与挑衅有关。
It’s just provocateurs.
这只是挑衅者。
But the provoking in the case of hood maps or something like this can damage a good thing.
但在引擎盖地图或类似的情况下的挑衅可能会损害一件好事。
2:08:17 A little poison in a town is always good.
小镇里有一点毒药总是好的。
It’s like the Tom Waits thing, but you don’t want too much, otherwise it destroys the town.
这就像汤姆·威茨的事，但你不要想要太多，否则它会毁掉小镇。
It destroys the thing.
它毁掉了东西。
Yeah.
是的。
2:08:35 But they’re like pen testers, penetration testers, hackers.
但他们就像笔测试员、渗透测试员、黑客。
They just test your app for you and then you add some stuff.
他们只是为你测试你的应用程序，然后你添加一些东西。
I had a NSFW word list.
我有一个 NSFW 单词表。
They would say bad words, so when they would write bad words, they would get forwarded to YouTube, which was a video.
他们会说脏话，所以当他们写下脏话时，他们就会被转发到 YouTube，这是一个视频。
It was a very relaxing video that ASMR with glowing jelly, streaming like this to relax them or cheese melting on the toast to chill them out.
这是一个非常轻松的视频，ASMR 带有发光的果冻，像这样流媒体让他们放松，或者奶酪融化在吐司上让他们放松。
Yeah, I like it.
是的，我喜欢它。
2:09:05 But actually, a lot of stuff, I didn’t realize how much originated in Forchand in terms of memes.
但实际上，我并没有意识到很多东西在模因方面起源于 Forchand。
Rick Roll, I didn’t understand…
瑞克·罗尔，我没听懂……
I didn’t know that Rick Roll originated in Forchand.
我不知道 Rick Roll 起源于 Forchand。
There’s so many memes, most of the memes that you think it takes-
模因太多了，大部分是你认为需要的模因——
The word roll I think comes from Forchand, not the word roll, but in this case, in the meme use, you would get roll doubles because every…
我认为“roll”这个词来自Forchand，而不是“roll”这个词，但在这种情况下，在模因使用中，你会得到双倍，因为每个......
2:09:17 It was post IDs on Forchand.
这是 Forchand 上的帖子 ID。
So, they were random.
所以，它们是随机的。
So, if I get doubles, this happens or something.
所以，如果我得到双打，就会发生这种情况或其他事情。
So, you’d get two-two…
所以，你会得到二二……
Anyway, it’s like a betting market on these doubles on these post IDs.
无论如何，这就像这些帖子 ID 上的双打投注市场。
There’s so much funny stuff.
有很多有趣的事情。
Yeah.
是的。
2:09:38 That’s the internet that’s purist.
这就是纯粹的互联网。
But yeah, again, the dark stuff seeps in and it’s nice to keep the dark stuff to some low amount.
但是，是的，深色物质会渗透进去，将深色物质保持在较低的含量是很好的。
It’s nice to have a bit of noise in the darkness, but not too much.
在黑暗中听到一点噪音很好，但不要太多。
But again, you have to pay attention to that with…
但同样，你必须注意这一点……
I guess spam in general, you have to fight that with Nomad list.
我想一般来说都是垃圾邮件，你必须用 Nomad 列表来对抗它。
How do you fight spam?
您如何对抗垃圾邮件？
Man, I use GPT-4o.
伙计，我使用 GPT-4o。
2:10:01 It’s amazing.
太棒了。
So, I have user input, I have reviews, people can review cities and I don’t need to actually sign up.
所以，我有用户输入，我有评论，人们可以评论城市，而我不需要实际注册。
It’s anonymous reviews and they write whole books about cities and what’s good and bad.
这是匿名评论，他们写了整本关于城市以及好坏的书。
So, I run it through GPT-4o and I ask, is this a good review?
所以，我通过 GPT-4o 运行它，我问，这是一个很好的评论吗？
Is it offensive?
是否令人反感？
Is this racist or some stuff?
这是种族主义还是其他什么？
And then, it sends message in Telegram, it rejects reviews, and I check it and man, it’s so on point.
然后，它在 Telegram 中发送消息，拒绝评论，我检查了一下，伙计，这太对了。
It’s so-
是这样的——
Automated.
自动化。
Yes, and it’s so accurate.
是的，而且非常准确。
2:10:32 It understands double meanings.
它理解双重含义。
I have GPT-4o running on the chat community.
我在聊天社区上运行着 GPT-4o。
It’s a chat community of 10,000 people, and they’re chatting, and they start fighting with each other and I used to have human moderators was very good, but they would start fighting the human moderator.
这是一个有 10,000 人的聊天社区，他们在聊天，他们开始互相争斗，我以前有人类版主非常好，但他们会开始与人类版主战斗。
This guy is biased or something.
这家伙有偏见什么的。
I have GPT-4o and it’s really, really, really, really good.
我有 GPT-4o，它真的非常非常非常好。
It understands humor.
它懂得幽默。
You could say something bad, but it’s like a joke and it’s not offensive so much so it shouldn’t be deleted.
你可以说一些不好的话，但这就像一个笑话，并没有那么令人反感，所以不应该被删除。
It understands that.
它明白这一点。
I would love to have a GPT-4o based filter of different kinds for X.
我希望有一个基于 GPT-4o 的不同类型的 X 过滤器。
Yeah.
是的。
2:11:15 I thought this week, I tweeted a fact check.
我想这周我在推特上发布了事实核查。
You can click fact check and then GPT-4o…
您可以单击事实检查，然后单击 GPT-4o...
Look, GPT-4o is not always right about stuff, but it can give you a general fact check on a tweet.
看，GPT-4o 并不总是正确的，但它可以为您提供对推文的一般事实检查。
Usually, what I do now when I write something difficult about economics or something about AI, I put in GPT-4o, I say, “Can you fact check it?” Because I might’ve said something stupid.
通常，当我写一些有关经济学或人工智能的困难内容时，我会放入 GPT-4o，我会说，“你能检查一下事实吗？”因为我可能说了一些蠢话。
2:11:35 And the stupid stuff always gets taken out by the replies like, “Oh, you said this wrong.” And then, the whole tweet doesn’t make sense anymore.
而愚蠢的东西总是会被诸如“哦，你说错了”之类的回复所消除。然后，整条推文就不再有意义了。
So, I ask GPT-4o to fact check a lot of stuff.
因此，我要求 GPT-4o 对很多内容进行事实检查。
So, fact check is a tough one, but it would be interesting to rate a thing based on how well thought out it is and how well argued it is.
因此，事实核查是一项艰巨的任务，但根据一件事的深思熟虑和争论的充分程度来评价它会很有趣。
2:11:44 That seems more doable.
这似乎更可行。
That seems like more doable.
这似乎更可行。
It seems like a GPT thing because that’s less about the truth and it’s more about the rigor of the thing.
这看起来像是 GPT 的事情，因为这与事实无关，而更多地与事情的严谨性有关。
Exactly.
确切地。
2:12:04 And you can ask that.
你可以问这个。
You can ask in the prompt, I don’t know, for example, do you think…
你可以在提示中问，我不知道，比如，你认为……
Create a ranking score of X Twitter replies where should this post be if we rank on, I don’t know, integrity, reality, fundamental deepness or something, interestness, and it would give you that a pretty good score probably.
创建一个 X Twitter 回复的排名分数，如果我们在完整性、现实性、基本深度或其他东西、兴趣上排名，我不知道，这篇文章应该在哪里，它可能会给你一个相当不错的分数。
Elon can do this with Grok.
Elon 可以通过 Grok 做到这一点。
He can start using that to check replies because their reply section is chaos.
他可以开始使用它来检查回复，因为他们的回复部分很混乱。
Yeah.
是的。
2:12:32 And actually the ranking or the reply is not great.
事实上，排名或回复并不好。
Doesn’t make any sense.
没有任何意义。
It doesn’t make sense.
这没有道理。
No.
不。
And I would like to sort in different kinds of ways.
我想以不同的方式进行排序。
Yeah.
是的。
2:12:39 And you get too many replies now.
现在你收到的回复太多了。
If you have a lot of followers, I get too many replies, I don’t see everything, and a lot of stuff I just miss and I want to see the good stuff.
如果你有很多关注者，我会收到太多回复，我看不到所有内容，而且我会错过很多东西，我想看到好东西。
And also the notifications or whatever, it’s just complete chaos.
还有通知什么的，完全是混乱的。
2:12:49 It’d be nice to be able to filter that in interesting ways, sort it in interesting ways.
如果能够以有趣的方式过滤它，以有趣的方式对其进行排序，那就太好了。
Because I feel like I miss a lot.
因为我觉得我错过了很多。
And what surfaced for me is just a random comment by a person with no followers.
对我来说，这只是一个没有追随者的人的随意评论。
That’s positive or negative.
这是积极的还是消极的。
It’s like okay.
好像还好。
If it’s a very good comment, it should happen, but it should probably look a little bit more like, do these people have followers because they’re probably more engaged in a platform, right?
如果这是一个非常好的评论，那就应该发生，但它可能看起来更像是，这些人是否有追随者，因为他们可能更多地参与某个平台，对吧？
Oh no, I don’t even care about how many followers.
哦不，我什至不在乎有多少粉丝。
2:13:17 If you’re ranking by the quality of the comment, great, but not just randomly chronological just a sea of comments.
如果您按照评论的质量进行排名，那就太好了，但不仅仅是随机按时间顺序排列，只是大量的评论。
Yeah.
是的。
2:13:28 It doesn’t make sense.
这没有道理。
Yeah.
是的。
X could be very proof of that, I think.
我认为 X 可以很好地证明这一点。
One thing you espouse a lot, which I love is the automation step.
您非常支持的一件事是自动化步骤，我很喜欢这一点。
2:13:33 So, once you have a thing, once you have an idea, and you build it, and it actually starts making money, and it’s making people happy, there’s a community of people using it.
所以，一旦你有了一个东西，一旦你有了一个想法，然后你构建了它，它实际上开始赚钱，并且它让人们快乐，就会有一个使用它的社区。
You want to take the automation step of automating the things you have to do as little work as possible for it to keep running indefinitely.
您希望采取自动化步骤，将您必须做的事情自动化，以使其无限期地运行。
Can you explain your philosophy there?
你能解释一下你的哲学吗？
What you mean by automate?
你说的自动化是什么意思？
Yeah.
是的。
2:14:01 So, the general theory of starters would be that when it starts, you start making money, you start hiring people to do stuff, do stuff that you like marketing, for example, do stuff that you would do in the beginning yourself.
因此，初学者的一般理论是，当它开始时，你开始赚钱，你开始雇用人们做事情，做你喜欢营销的事情，例如，做你自己一开始会做的事情。
And whatever, community management, and organizing meetups for Nomad List, for example, that would be a job, for example.
不管怎样，社区管理和为 Nomad List 组织聚会，这都将是一份工作。
2:14:18 And I felt like I don’t have the money for that and I don’t really want to run a big company with a lot of people because there’s a lot of work managing these people.
我觉得我没有钱这么做，而且我真的不想经营一家拥有很多人的大公司，因为管理这些人有很多工作要做。
So, I’ve always tried to automate these things as much as possible.
所以，我一直试图尽可能地使这些事情自动化。
And this can literally be like for Nomad List, it’s not a different other starters, it’s like a webpage where you can organize your own meetup, set a schedule, a date, whatever.
这实际上就像 Nomad List 一样，它与其他首发者没有什么不同，它就像一个网页，你可以在其中组织自己的聚会、设置时间表、日期等等。
2:14:42 You could see how many Nomads will be there at that date.
你可以看到那天会有多少游牧民。
So, there will be actually enough Nomads to meet up.
所以，实际上会有足够的游牧民族会面。
And then, when it’s done, it sends a tweet out on the Nomad List account, there’s a meetup here, it sends a direct message to everybody in the city who are there, who are going to be there.
然后，当它完成后，它会在 Nomad List 帐户上发送一条推文，这里有一个聚会，它会向城市中在场和将要参加的每个人发送直接消息。
And then, people show up on a bar, and there’s a meetup, and that’s fully automated.
然后，人们出现在酒吧，举行聚会，这是完全自动化的。
And for me, it’s so obvious to make this automatic, why would you have somebody organize this?
对我来说，让这个自动化变得如此明显，为什么要让人组织这个呢？
It makes more sense to automate it, and this with most of my things, I figure out how to do it with codes and I think especially now with AI, you can automate so much more stuff than before because AI understands things so well.
自动化更有意义，对于我的大部分事情来说，我弄清楚如何用代码来完成它，我认为特别是现在有了人工智能，你可以比以前自动化更多的东西，因为人工智能对事物的理解非常好。
Before I would use if statements.
在我使用 if 语句之前。
Now, you ask GPT, you put something in GPT-4o in the API and it sends back, this is good, this is bad.
现在，你问 GPT，你在 API 中的 GPT-4o 中放入一些东西，它会发回，这是好的，这是坏的。
Yeah.
是的。
2:15:29 So, you basically can now even automate subjective type of things.
所以，你现在基本上甚至可以自动化主观类型的事情。
This is the difference now and that’s very recent.
这就是现在的差异，而且是最近的差异。
But it’s still difficult to…
但还是很难……
2:15:38 That step of automation is difficult to figure out how to, because you’re basically delegating everything to code.
自动化的这一步很难弄清楚如何去做，因为你基本上将所有事情都委托给了代码。
It’s not trivial to take that step for a lot of people.
对于很多人来说，迈出这一步并不是一件容易的事。
So, when you say automate, are you talking about cron jobs?
那么，当您说自动化时，您是在谈论 cron 作业吗？
Yes.
是的。
2:15:56 Man, a lot of cron jobs.
伙计，有很多 cron 作业。
A lot of cron jobs.
很多 cron 作业。
Literally, I log into the server and I do pseudo cron tab dash E, and then I go into edit and I write hourly.
从字面上看，我登录到服务器并执行伪 cron tab dash E，然后进入编辑状态并每小时写入一次。
2:16:00 And then, I write PHP, do this thing dot PHP, and that’s a script, and that script does a thing and it does it then hourly.
然后，我编写 PHP，用 PHP 做这件事，这是一个脚本，该脚本会做一件事，然后每小时做一次。
That’s it.
就是这样。
And that’s how all my websites work.
这就是我所有网站的运作方式。
Do you have a thing where it emails you, or something like this, or emails somebody managing the thing if something goes wrong?
你是否有这样的东西，如果出现问题，它会向你发送电子邮件，或者类似的东西，或者向管理该东西的人发送电子邮件？
I have these webpages I make, they’re called health checks, so it’s like healthcheck.php.
我制作了这些网页，它们被称为健康检查，所以它就像 healthcheck.php。
2:16:25 And then, it has emojis, it has a green check mark if it’s good, and a red one if it’s bad, and then it does database queries.
然后，它有表情符号，如果好的话有一个绿色的复选标记，如果不好的话有一个红色的复选标记，然后它会进行数据库查询。
For example, what’s the internet speed in, for example, Amsterdam?
例如，阿姆斯特丹的互联网速度是多少？
Okay, it’s a number.
好吧，这是一个数字。
It’s 27 point megabits, so it’s accurate number.
它是 27 点兆位，因此是准确的数字。
Okay, check, good.
好的，检查一下，好的。
And then, it goes to the next and it goes on all the data points.
然后，它进入下一个并处理所有数据点。
2:16:49 Did people sign up in the last 24 hours?
过去 24 小时内有人注册吗？
It’s important because maybe the sign-up broke.
这很重要，因为注册可能会失败。
Okay, check, somebody sign up.
好的，检查一下，有人报名了。
Then I have uptimerobot.com, which is for uptime, but it can also check keywords.
然后我有 uptimerobot.com，它是用于正常运行时间的，但它也可以检查关键字。
It checks for an emoji, which is the red X, which is if something is bad.
它会检查表情符号，即红色 X，表示出现问题。
And so, it opens that health check page every minute to check if something is bad.
因此，它每分钟都会打开健康检查页面来检查是否有问题。
Then if it’s bad, it sends a message to me on Telegram saying, “Hey, what’s up?” It doesn’t say, “Hey, what’s up?” It sends me alert.
然后，如果情况不好，它会在 Telegram 上向我发送一条消息：“嘿，怎么了？”它不会说：“嘿，怎么了？”它向我发出警报。
Hey.
嘿。
2:17:15 Hey, sweetie.
嘿，亲爱的。
This thing is down and then I check.
这东西下来了，然后我检查一下。
2:17:16 So, within a minute of something breaking, I know it, and then I can open my laptop and fix it.
因此，在出现问题的一分钟之内，我就知道了，然后我就可以打开我的笔记本电脑并修复它。
But the good thing is the last few years, things don’t break anymore.
但好消息是，过去几年，事情不再出问题了。
And definitely 10 years ago when I started, everything was breaking all the time.
绝对是 10 年前，当我刚开始工作时，一切都在崩溃。
And now it’s almost last week it was like 100.000% uptime and these health checks are part of the uptime percentage.
现在几乎是上周，正常运行时间就像 100.000%，这些运行状况检查是正常运行时间百分比的一部分。
So, it’s like everything works.
所以，好像一切正常。
You’re actually making me realize I should have a page for myself, one page that has all the health checks just so I can go to it and see all the green check marks.
你实际上让我意识到我应该为自己准备一个页面，一个包含所有健康检查的页面，这样我就可以转到它并看到所有绿色复选标记。
It feels good to look at.
看着感觉很好。
It’d just be like, okay.
就好像，好吧。
Yeah.
是的。
All right.
好的。
2:17:55 We’re okay, everything’s okay.
我们都很好，一切都很好。
And you can see when was the last time something wasn’t okay and it’ll say never or meaning you’ve checked since last cared to check, it’s all been okay.
你可以看到最后一次出现问题是什么时候，它会说“从不”，或者意味着你自从上次想检查以来已经检查过，一切都很好。
For sure.
一定。
2:18:11 It used to send me the good health checks.
它曾经向我发送良好的健康检查。
It all works.
这一切都有效。
It all works.
这一切都有效。
It all works.
这一切都有效。
But it’s been so often.
但这样的事已经屡见不鲜了。
And I’m like, this feels so good.
我想，这感觉真好。
2:18:18 But then I’m like, okay, obviously it’s not going to…
但后来我想，好吧，显然它不会……
You need to hide the good ones and show only the bad ones and now that’s the case.
你需要隐藏好的，只显示坏的，现在就是这样。
I need integrate everything into one place.
我需要将所有内容整合到一个地方。
2:18:24 Automate everything.
自动化一切。
They have also just a large set of cron jobs.
他们也只有大量的 cron 作业。
A lot of the publication of this podcast is done all…
这个播客的很多内容都是完成的……
Everything is just on automatically, it’s all clipped up, all those kind of stuff.
一切都是自动开启的，一切都被剪掉了，诸如此类的东西。
But it would be nice to automate even more.
但如果能实现更多自动化就更好了。
Translation, all those kind of stuff would be nice to automate.
翻译，所有这些东西如果能实现自动化就好了。
Yeah.
是的。
2:18:46 Every JavaScript, every PHP error gets sent to my telegram as well.
每个 JavaScript、每个 PHP 错误也会发送到我的电报中。
So, every user, whatever user it is, doesn’t have to be page user.
因此，每个用户，无论是什么用户，都不必是页面用户。
If they run into an error, the JavaScript sends the JavaScript error to the server and then it sends to my Telegram from all my websites.
如果遇到错误，JavaScript 会将 JavaScript 错误发送到服务器，然后从我的所有网站发送到我的 Telegram。
So, you get a message.
所以，你收到一条消息。
So, I get a uncalled variable error, whatever, blah-blah-blah.
所以，我得到了一个未调用的变量错误，无论如何，等等。
2:19:05 And then, I’m like, okay, interesting.
然后，我想，好吧，有趣。
And then, I go check it out, and that’s a way to get to zero errors because you get flooded with errors in the beginning and now it’s like nothing almost.
然后，我去检查一下，这是一种实现零错误的方法，因为一开始你会被错误淹没，但现在几乎什么也没有了。
That’s really cool.
这真的很酷。
2:19:19 That’s really cool.
这真的很酷。
But this is the same stuff people, they pay very big SaaS companies like New Relic for, to manage the stuff.
但这是同样的东西，人们付钱给像 New Relic 这样的大型 SaaS 公司来管理这些东西。
2:19:22 So, you can do that too.
所以，你也可以这样做。
You can use off the shelf.
您可以使用现成的。
I like to build myself.
我喜欢打造自己。
It’s easier.
更容易。
Yeah, it’s nice.
是的，这很好。
2:19:34 It’s nice to do that automation.
实现自动化真是太好了。
I’m starting to think about what are the things in my life I’m doing myself that could be automated.
我开始思考生活中我自己做的哪些事情可以自动化。
Ask ChatGPT, give your day, and then ask it what parts should automate.
询问 ChatGPT，给你一天的时间，然后询问它哪些部分应该自动化。
Well, one of the things I would love to automate more is my consumption of social media, both the output and the input.
嗯，我希望更多自动化的一件事是我对社交媒体的消费，包括输出和输入。
Man, that’s very interesting.
伙计，这很有趣。
2:19:55 I think there’s some starters that do that.
我认为有些初学者会这样做。
They summarize the cool shit happening on Twitter with AI.
他们用人工智能总结了 Twitter 上发生的很酷的事情。
I think the guy called swyx or something, he does a newsletter.
我想那个叫 swyx 之类的人，他写了一份时事通讯。
It’s completely AI generated.
它完全是人工智能生成的。
We have the cool new stuff in AI.
我们在人工智能领域拥有很酷的新东西。
Yeah, I would love to do that.
是的，我很乐意这样做。
2:20:11 But also across Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, all this kind of stuff, just like, “Okay, can you summarize the internet for me for today?”
但也包括 Instagram、Facebook、LinkedIn，所有这些东西，就像，“好吧，你能为我总结一下今天的互联网吗？”
summarizeinternet.com.
Summaryinternet.com。
Yeah, dot com.
是的，.com。
2:20:23 Because I feel like it pulls in way too much time, but also I don’t like the effect it has some days on my psyche.
因为我觉得它占用了太多时间，但我也不喜欢它有时对我的精神产生的影响。
Because of haters or just general content, like politics?
因为仇恨或只是一般内容，比如政治？
Just general.
只是一般。
2:20:37 No, no, just general.
不不不，只是一般。
For example, TikTok is a good example of that for me.
例如，TikTok 对我来说就是一个很好的例子。
I sometimes just feel dumber after I use TikTok.
使用 TikTok 后，我有时会觉得自己更蠢了。
I just feel like-
我只是觉得——
Yeah.
是的。
2:20:45 I don’t use it anymore.
我不再使用它了。
Empty somehow and I’m uninspired.
不知怎的，我很空虚，没有灵感。
2:20:47 It’s funny in the moment I’m like, “Haha, look at that cat doing a funny thing.” And then, you’re like, “Oh, look at that person dancing in a funny way to that music.” And then, you’re like 10 minutes later you’re like, I feel way dumber and I don’t really want to do much for the rest of the day.
那一刻我觉得很有趣，“哈哈，看看那只猫在做一件有趣的事情。”然后，你会想，“哦，看看那个人随着音乐以一种有趣的方式跳舞。”然后，大约 10 分钟后，你会想，我感觉自己更笨了，而且我在这一天剩下的时间里真的不想做太多事情。
Yeah.
是的。
2:21:06 My girlfriend sat, she saw me watching some dumb video and she’s like, “Dude, your face looks so dumb as well.” Your whole face starts going like, “Oh, interesting.”
我女朋友坐着，她看到我在看一些愚蠢的视频，她说：“伙计，你的脸看起来也很愚蠢。”你的整个脸开始变得像，“哦，有趣。”
With X sometimes for me too, I think I’m probably naturally gravitating towards the drama.
有时我也有X，我想我可能很自然地被这部戏剧所吸引。
Aren’t we all?
我们不都是吗？
Yeah.
是的。
2:21:27 And so, following AI people, especially AI people that only post technical content has been really good because then I just look at them, and then I go down rabbit holes of learning new papers that have been published, or good repost, or just any kind of cool demonstration of stuff, and the kind of things that they retweet, and that’s the rabbit hole.
因此，关注人工智能人，尤其是只发布技术内容的人工智能人，真的很好，因为我只是看着他们，然后我就深入学习已发表的新论文，或者好的转发，或者只是任何一种很酷的东西演示，以及他们转发的那种东西，这就是兔子洞。
I go, and I’m learning and I’m inspired, all that kind of stuff.
我去，我在学习，我受到启发，诸如此类的事情。
It’s been tough.
这很艰难。
It’s been tough to control that.
控制这一点很难。
It’s difficult.
它很难。
2:21:52 You need to manage your platforms.
您需要管理您的平台。
I have a mute board list as well, so I mute politics stuff because I don’t really want it on my feed, and I think I’ve muted so much that now my feed is good.
我也有一个静音板列表，所以我将政治内容静音，因为我真的不想让它出现在我的提要中，而且我想我已经静音了太多，所以现在我的提要很好。
I see interesting stuff.
我看到有趣的东西。
But the fact that you need to modify, you need to mod your app, your social media platform just to function and not be toxic for you for your mental health.
但事实上，你需要修改，你需要修改你的应用程序，你的社交媒体平台只是为了发挥作用，而不是对你的心理健康有害。
That’s a problem.
这是一个问题。
It should be doing that for you.
它应该为你做这件事。
It’s some level of automation.
这是某种程度的自动化。
2:22:18 That would be interesting.
那会很有趣。
I wish I could access X and Instagram through API easier.
我希望我可以通过 API 更轻松地访问 X 和 Instagram。
You need to spend $42,000 a month, which my friends do.
你每个月需要花费 42,000 美元，我的朋友们也是这么做的。
2:22:27 Yeah, you can do that.
是的，你可以这样做。
No.
不。
2:22:32 But still, even if you do that, that you’re not getting…
但是，即使你这样做了，你也不会得到......
There’s limitations that don’t make it easy to do automate because the thing that they’re trying to limit abuse or for you to steal all the data from the app to then train in LLM or something like this.
有些限制并不容易实现自动化，因为他们试图限制滥用，或者让你从应用程序中窃取所有数据，然后进行法学硕士或类似的培训。
But if I just want to figure out ways to automate my interaction with X system or with Instagram, they don’t make that easy.
但如果我只是想找出与 X 系统或 Instagram 自动化交互的方法，它们就不会那么容易了。
2:22:55 But I would love to automate that and explore different ways how to leverage LLMs to control the content I consume, and maybe publish that, and maybe they themselves can see how that could be used to improve their system.
但我很乐意将其自动化，并探索如何利用法学硕士来控制我消费的内容的不同方法，也许还可以发布它，也许他们自己可以看到如何使用它来改进他们的系统。
But there’s not enough access to get-
但没有足够的访问权限来获取-
Yes, you could screen cap your phone.
是的，您可以对手机进行屏幕限制。
2:23:11 It can be an app that watches your screen with you.
它可以是一个与您一起观看屏幕的应用程序。
You could, yeah.
你可以，是的。
But I don’t really know what it would do.
但我真的不知道它会做什么。
2:23:17 Maybe it can hide stuff before you see it.
也许它可以在你看到之前隐藏一些东西。
I have that.
我有那个。
2:23:22 I have Chrome extensions…
我有 Chrome 扩展程序...
I write a lot of Chrome extensions that hide parts of different pages and so on.
我写了很多 Chrome 扩展来隐藏不同页面的部分内容等等。
For example, on my main computer, I hide all views, and likes, and all that on YouTube content that I create.
例如，在我的主计算机上，我隐藏了所有观看次数和点赞次数，以及我创建的 YouTube 内容上的所有内容。
So that I don’t-
这样我就不会-
That’s smart, doesn’t affect you.
这很聪明，不会影响你。
It doesn’t, yeah.
事实并非如此，是的。
2:23:38 So, you don’t pay attention to it.
所以，你不关注它。
I also hide parts…
我也隐藏部分...
I have a mode for X where I hide most of everything.
我有一个 X 模式，可以隐藏大部分内容。
It’s the same with YouTube.
YouTube 也是如此。
I have the same, I have this extension.
我有同样的，我有这个扩展。
Well, I wrote my own because it’s easier because it keeps changing.
嗯，我自己写的，因为它更容易，因为它不断变化。
2:23:50 It’s not easy to keep it dynamically changing, but they’re really good at getting you to be distracted and starting to-
保持动态变化并不容易，但它们确实很擅长让你分心并开始——
Related account, related post.
相关帐户，相关帖子。
2:24:03 I’m like, I don’t want related.
我想，我不想有关联。
And 10 minutes later you’re like or something that’s trending.
10 分钟后，你就会发现某个热门话题。
I have a weird amount of friends addicted to YouTube and I’m not addicted.
我有很多朋友沉迷于 YouTube，但我却没有沉迷。
2:24:07 I think because my attention span is too short for YouTube.
我想是因为我的注意力持续时间对于 YouTube 来说太短了。
But I have this extension, YouTube Unhook, which hides all the related stuff.
但我有这个扩展，YouTube Unhook，它隐藏了所有相关的东西。
I can just see the video and it’s amazing, but sometimes I need to search a video how to do something, and then I go to YouTube and then I had these YouTube shorts.
我可以看到视频，这太棒了，但有时我需要搜索视频如何做某事，然后我去 YouTube，然后我就有了这些 YouTube 短片。
These YouTube shorts, they’re algorithmically designed to just make you tap them.
这些 YouTube 短片的算法设计就是让您点按它们。
And then, I tap, and then I’m like five minutes later with this face and you’re just stuck.
然后，我点击，五分钟后我就看到这张脸，你就被卡住了。
And what happened?
发生了什么？
I was going to play the coffee mix, the music mix for drinking coffee together in the morning, like jazz.
我打算播放混合咖啡，早上一起喝咖啡的音乐组合，就像爵士乐一样。
I didn’t want to go to shorts.
我不想穿短裤。
So, it’s very difficult.
所以，这是非常困难的。
I love how we’re actually highlighting all kinds of interesting problems that all could be solved with a startup.
我喜欢我们实际上强调各种有趣的问题，这些问题都可以通过初创公司解决。
2:24:54 Okay.
好的。
So, what about the exit?
那么，出口呢？
When and how to exit?
何时以及如何退出？
Man, you shouldn’t ask me because I never sold my company.
伙计，你不应该问我，因为我从未卖过我的公司。
All the successful stuff you’ve done, you never sold it?
你所做的所有成功的事情，你都没有卖掉吗？
Yeah, it’s sad.
是的，很伤心。
2:25:10 So, I’ve been in a lot of acquisition like deals and stuff, and I learn a lot about finance people as well there, manipulation, and due diligence, and then changing the valuation.
所以，我参与了很多收购，比如交易之类的，我也在那里学到了很多关于财务人员、操纵和尽职调查的知识，然后改变估值。
People change the valuation after.
人们在之后改变了估值。
So, a lot of people string you on to acquire you and then it takes six months.
所以，很多人都拉着你来收购你，然后就需要六个月的时间。
It’s a classic.
这是一个经典。
It takes six to 12 months.
需要六到十二个月的时间。
They want to see everything.
他们想看到一切。
2:25:33 They want to see your stripe, and your code, and whatever.
他们想看到你的条纹、你的代码等等。
And then, in the end, they’ll change the price to lower because you’re already so invested.
最后，他们会降低价格，因为你已经投入了很多。
So, it’s like a negotiation tactic.
所以，这就像一种谈判策略。
I’m like, “No, I don’t want to sell.” And the problem with my companies is they make 90% profit margin.
我说：“不，我不想卖。”我的公司的问题是他们的利润率为 90%。
Companies get sold with multiples, multiples of profit or revenue.
公司以数倍的利润或收入被出售。
2:25:57 And often the multiple is three times, three times or four times or five times revenue or profit.
通常，倍数是收入或利润的三倍、三倍、四倍或五倍。
So, in my case, they’re all automated, so I might as well wait three years and I get the same money as when I sell and then I can still sell the same company.
所以，就我而言，它们都是自动化的，所以我不妨等三年，然后我得到与出售时相同的钱，然后我仍然可以出售同一家公司。
You know what I mean?
你知道我的意思？
I can still sell it for three to five times.
我还能卖三五次。
So, financially, it doesn’t really make sense to sell unless the price is high enough.
因此，从财务角度来看，除非价格足够高，否则出售实际上没有意义。
If the price gets to six or seven or eight, I don’t want to wait six years for the money, but if you give me three years, nothing, I can wait.
如果价格到了六、七、八，我不想等六年的钱，但如果给我三年，什么都没有，我可以等。
So, that means there are really valuable stuff about the companies you create is not just the interface and the crowdsource content, but the people themselves, the user base.
所以，这意味着你创建的公司真正有价值的东西不仅仅是界面和众包内容，还有人本身、用户群。
Yeah.
是的。
2:26:39 For Nomad List, it’s a community.
对于 Nomad List 来说，它是一个社区。
Yeah,
是的，
So, I could see that being extremely valuable.
所以，我可以看到这是非常有价值的。
2:26:41 I’m surprised that-
我很惊讶——
Yeah.
是的。
2:26:44 Nomad List is it’s my baby.
Nomad List 是我的宝贝。
It’s my first product I took off and I don’t really know if I want to sell it.
这是我脱下的第一个产品，我真的不知道是否要卖掉它。
It’s something would be nice when you are old because you’re still working in this.
当你老了的时候，这会是件好事，因为你还在从事这行。
It has a mission, which is like people should travel anywhere, and they can work from anywhere, and they can meet different cultures.
它有一个使命，就像人们应该去任何地方旅行，他们可以在任何地方工作，他们可以遇到不同的文化。
And that’s a good way to make the world get better.
这是让世界变得更好的好方法。
2:27:03 If you go to China and live in China, you’ll learn that they’re nice people.
如果你去中国并生活在中国，你会发现他们都是好人。
And a lot of stuff you hear about China’s propaganda, a lot of stuff is true as well, but it’s more you learn a lot from traveling.
你听到的很多关于中国宣传的东西，很多东西也是真的，但更多的是你从旅行中学到了很多东西。
And I think that’s why it’s a cool product to not sell.
我认为这就是为什么它是一个很酷但不卖的产品。
AI products, I have less emotional feeling with AI products like Photo AI, which I could sell.
AI产品，我对像Photo AI这样的AI产品没有太多的情感，我可以卖它。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
2:27:23 The thing you also mentioned is you have to price in the fact that you’re going to miss the company you created.
您还提到，您必须考虑到您将怀念您创建的公司这一事实。
And the meaning it gives you.
以及它赋予你的意义。
2:27:31 This is very famous like depression after startup finance sold their company.
这就像初创金融公司出售公司后的抑郁症一样非常出名。
They’re like, this was me.
他们就像，这就是我。
Who am I?
我是谁？
And they immediately start building another one.
他们立即开始建造另一座。
They never can stop.
他们永远无法停止。
So, I think it’s good to keep working until you die.
所以，我认为继续工作到死是件好事。
Just keep working on cool stuff and you shouldn’t retire.
只要继续从事很酷的事情，你就不应该退休。
I think retirement is bad probably.
我认为退休可能很糟糕。
So, you usually build the stuff solo and mostly work solo.
因此，您通常会单独构建这些东西，并且大部分时间都是单独工作。
2:27:52 What’s the thinking behind that?
这背后的想法是什么？
I think I’m not so good working with other people.
我认为我不太擅长与其他人合作。
2:27:58 Not like I’m crazy, but I don’t trust other people.
不是我疯了，而是我不相信别人。
To clarify, you don’t trust other people to do a great job?
澄清一下，你不相信其他人能做得很好？
Yeah.
是的。
2:28:07 And I don’t want to have this consensus meeting where we all…
我不想召开这次共识会议，让我们所有人……
You have a meeting with three people and then you get these compromise results, which is very European.
你和三个人开会，然后得到这些妥协的结果，这是非常欧洲化的。
I don’t know if they call it polder model where you put people in the room and you only let them out when they agree on the compromise in politics.
我不知道他们是否称之为圩田模式，你把人们放在房间里，只有当他们同意政治妥协时才让他们出去。
And I think it breeds averageness.
我认为它滋生了平均性。
2:28:28 You get an average idea, average company, average culture, you need to have a leader or you need to be solo and just do it.
你有一个普通的想法，普通的公司，普通的文化，你需要有一个领导者，或者你需要独自去做。
Do it yourself, I think.
我想，你自己做吧。
And I trust some people, like with my best friend Andre, I’m making a new AI startup, but it’s because we know each other very long and he’s one of the few people I would build something with, but almost never.
我信任一些人，比如我最好的朋友安德烈，我正在创办一家新的人工智能初创公司，但这是因为我们彼此认识很长时间，他是我愿意与之一起开发东西的少数人之一，但几乎从来没有。
So, what does it take to be successful when you have more than one?
那么，当你拥有不止一个时，怎样才能成功呢？
2:28:52 How do you build together with Andre?
你如何与安德烈一起建设？
How do you build together with other people?
你如何与其他人一起建设？
So, he codes, I should post on Twitter.
所以，他编码，我应该在 Twitter 上发布。
2:28:59 Literally, I promote it on Twitter.
从字面上看，我在 Twitter 上宣传它。
We set product strategy.
我们制定产品策略。
Like I said, this should be better, this should be better.
就像我说的，这应该更好，这应该更好。
But I think you need to have one person coding it.
但我认为你需要一个人来编码。
He codes in Ruby, so I was like I cannot do Ruby.
他用 Ruby 编写代码，所以我觉得我不会用 Ruby。
I’m in PHP.
我是用 PHP 的。
So, have you ever coded with another person for prolonged periods of time?
那么，您是否曾经与另一个人长时间一起编码过？
Never in my life.
在我的生活中从来没有。
What do you think is behind that?
您认为这背后的原因是什么？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
2:29:26 It was always just me sitting on my laptop coding.
总是只有我坐在笔记本电脑上编码。
No, you’ve never had another developer who rolls in and-
不，你从来没有遇到过另一个开发人员加入并且-
I’ve had once where with Photo AI, there’s a AI developer, Philip.
我曾经接触过 Photo AI，有一位人工智能开发人员，Philip。
2:29:33 I hired him to do the…
我雇他来做……
Because I can’t write Python and AI stuff is Python.
因为我不会写Python，而AI的东西就是Python。
And I needed to get models to work, and replicate, and stuff and I needed to improve Photo AI.
我需要让模型发挥作用、复制等等，我还需要改进照片人工智能。
And he helped me a lot for 10 months he worked.
在他工作的10个月里，他给了我很多帮助。
2:29:48 And man, I was trying Python working with NumPy, and package manager, and it was too difficult for me to figure this shit out.
伙计，我正在尝试将 Python 与 NumPy 和包管理器一起使用，但对我来说解决这个问题太困难了。
And I didn’t have time.
我没有时间。
I think 10 years ago, I would’ve time to sit, go do all-nighters to figure this stuff out with Python.
我想 10 年前，我会有时间坐下来，通宵达旦地用 Python 解决这些问题。
It’s not my thing.
这不是我的事。
It’s not your thing.
这不是你的事。
2:30:04 It’s another programming language.
这是另一种编程语言。
I get it.
我得到它。
AI, new thing, got it.
人工智能，新事物，明白了。
But you’ve never had a developer roll in, look at your PHP jQuery code, and yes.
但你从来没有让开发人员介入，看看你的 PHP jQuery 代码，是的。
Like in conversation or improv, they talk about yes and basically, all right.
就像在谈话或即兴表演中一样，他们谈论的是，基本上，好吧。
I had for one week-
我花了一个星期——
Understand-
了解-
And then, it ended.
然后，就结束了。
What happened?
发生了什么？
Because he wanted to rewrite everything in-
因为他想重写一切——
No, that’s the wrong guy.
不，那是错误的人。
I know.
我知道。
He wanted to rewrite in what?
他想重写什么？
He wanted to rewrite, he said is jQuery, we can’t do this.
他想重写，他说是jQuery，我们不能这样做。
2:30:29 I’m like, okay.
我想，好吧。
He’s like, “We need to rewrite everything in Vue.js.” I’m like, “Are you sure?
他说，“我们需要用 Vue.js 重写所有内容。”我说：“你确定吗？
Can’t we just like keep jQuery?” He’s like, “No, man.” And we need to change a lot of stuff.
我们就不能保留 jQuery 吗？”他说：“不，伙计。”我们需要改变很多东西。
And I’m like, okay.
我想，好吧。
And I was feeling we’re going to clean up shit, but then after weeks, it’s going to take way too much time.
我觉得我们要清理垃圾，但几周后，这将花费太多时间。
I think I like working with people where when I approach them, I pretend in my head that they’re the smartest person who has ever existed.
我想我喜欢与人们一起工作，当我接近他们时，我假装他们是有史以来最聪明的人。
2:30:50 So, I look at their code or I look at the stuff they’ve created and try to see the genius of their way.
所以，我会查看他们的代码或者他们创建的东西，并尝试看看他们的方式的天才之处。
You really have to understand people, really notice them.
你必须真正了解人们，真正注意到他们。
And then, from that place, have a conversation about what is the better approach.
然后，从那个地方开始讨论什么是更好的方法。
Yeah.
是的。
2:31:15 But those are the top tier developers and those are the ones that are tech ambiguous.
但这些都是顶级开发商，而且技术上也很模糊。
So, they can learn any tech stack.
因此，他们可以学习任何技术堆栈。
And that’s really few, it’s top 5%.
而且这个比例真的很少，只有前 5%。
Because if you try higher devs, no offense to devs, but most devs are not…
因为如果你尝试更高的开发人员，无意冒犯开发人员，但大多数开发人员并不是……
Man, most people in general jobs are not so good at their job, even doctors and stuff.
伙计，大多数从事一般工作的人都不太擅长他们的工作，即使是医生之类的。
That’s too sad.
这太悲伤了。
When you realize this, people are very average at the job, especially with dev and with coding, I think.
当你意识到这一点时，我认为人们在工作中的表现非常平均，尤其是在开发和编码方面。
2:31:35 So sorry if-
很抱歉如果-
I think that’s a really important skill for a developer to roll in and understand the musicality, the style-
我认为对于开发人员来说，了解音乐性和风格是一项非常重要的技能——
That’s it, man.
就是这样，伙计。
2:31:48 Empathy, it’s code empathy.
同理心，就是代码同理心。
It’s code empathy.
这是代码同理心。
Yeah, it’s a new word, but that’s it.
是的，这是一个新词，但仅此而已。
2:31:51 You need to understand, go over the code, get a holistic view of it and man, you can suggest we change stuff for sure.
你需要理解、检查代码、全面了解它，你可以建议我们肯定要改变一些东西。
But look, jQuery is crazy.
但是你看，jQuery 太疯狂了。
It’s crazy I’m using jQuery.
我使用 jQuery 真是太疯狂了。
We can change that.
我们可以改变这一点。
It’s not crazy at all.
这一点也不疯狂。
2:32:05 jQuery is also beautiful and powerful and PHP is beautiful and powerful.
jQuery 也很漂亮而且功能强大，PHP 也很漂亮而且功能强大。
And especially as you said recently, as the versions evolved, it’s much more serious programming language now.
尤其是正如您最近所说，随着版本的发展，它现在是更加严肃的编程语言。
It’s super-fast.
速度超级快。
PHP is really fast now.
PHP 现在真的很快。
It’s crazy.
太疯狂了。
JavaScript-
JavaScript-
Much faster than Ruby, yeah.
比 Ruby 快得多，是的。
…
……
2:32:25 really fast now.
现在真的很快。
So, if speed is something you care about, it’s super-fast.
因此，如果您关心速度，那么它就是超快。
And there’s gigantic communities of people using those programming languages.
并且有庞大的用户社区使用这些编程语言。
And there’s frameworks if you like the framework.
如果你喜欢框架的话，还有框架。
So, whatever, it doesn’t really matter what you use.
所以，无论如何，你用什么并不重要。
But also, if I was a developer working with you, you are extremely successful.
而且，如果我是与您一起工作的开发人员，那么您会非常成功。
You’ve shipped a lot.
你已经发货了很多。
2:32:46 So, if I roll in, I’m going to be like, I don’t assume you know nothing.
所以，如果我介入，我会说，我不认为你什么都不知道。
Assume Pieter is a genius, the smartest developer ever.
假设 Pieter 是一个天才，是有史以来最聪明的开发人员。
And learn from it.
并从中学习。
And yes, and notice parts in the code where, “Okay, okay, I got it, here’s how he’s thinking.” And now if I want to add another little feature, definitely needs to have emoji in front of it, and then just follow the same style and add it.
是的，请注意代码中的部分内容，“好吧，好吧，我明白了，这就是他的想法。”现在如果我想添加另一个小功能，肯定需要在它前面有表情符号，然后按照相同的样式添加它。
2:33:17 And my goal is to make you happy, to make you smile, to make you like, “Haha, fuck, I get it.” And now you’re going to start respecting me, and trusting me, and you start working together in this way.
我的目标是让你快乐，让你微笑，让你喜欢，“哈哈，操，我明白了。”现在你们将开始尊重我，信任我，你们开始以这种方式一起工作。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
I don’t know how hard it is to find developers.
不知道找开发者有多难。
No, I think they exist.
不，我认为它们存在。
2:33:32 I think I need to hire more people, I need to try more people.
我认为我需要雇用更多的人，我需要尝试更多的人。
Try people, yeah.
尝试一下人，是的。
But that costs a lot of my energy and time.
但这花费了我大量的精力和时间。
2:33:36 But it’s 100% possible.
但这是100%可能的。
But do I want it?
但我想要吗？
I don’t know.
我不知道。
Things run fine for now.
目前一切进展顺利。
Okay, you could say, okay, Nomad List looks clunky.
好吧，你可能会说，好吧，Nomad List 看起来很笨重。
People say the design is clunky.
人们说这个设计很笨拙。
Okay, I’ll improve the design.
好的，我会改进设计。
It’s like next to my to-do list, for example.
例如，它就像在我的待办事项列表旁边。
I’ll get there eventually.
我最终会到达那里。
But it’s true.
但这是真的。
2:33:54 You’re also extremely good at what you do.
你也非常擅长你所做的事情。
I’m just looking at the interfaces of Photo AI, you would jQuery, how amazing is jQuery?
我只是看Photo AI的接口，你会想到jQuery，jQuery有多神奇？
But you can see these cowboys are getting…
但你可以看到这些牛仔正在变得……
There’s these cowboys.
有这些牛仔。
This is a lot.
这是很多。
This is a lot.
这是很多。
But I’m glad they’re all wearing shirts.
但我很高兴他们都穿着衬衫。
Anyway, the interface here is just really, really nice.
不管怎样，这里的界面真的非常非常好。
I could tell you know what you’re doing.
我可以告诉你知道你在做什么。
And with Nomad List, extremely nice, the interface.
Nomad List 的界面非常好。
Thank you, man.
谢谢你，伙计。
And that’s all you.
这就是你。
Yeah, everything is me.
是的，一切都是我。
So, all of this and every little feature, all of this-
所以，所有这一切以及每一个小功能，所有这一切——
People say it looks ADHD or ADD.
人们说它看起来多动症或ADD。
2:34:32 It’s so much because it has so many things.
它之所以这么多，是因为它有很多东西。
And design these days is minimalist, right?
现在的设计很简约，对吧？
Right, I hear you.
好的，我听到了。
2:34:40 But this is a lot of information, and its useful information, and it’s delivered in a clean way while still stylish and fun to look at.
但这是很多信息，而且是有用的信息，并且以干净的方式提供，同时仍然时尚有趣。
So, minimalist design is about when you want to convey no information whatsoever and look cool.
因此，极简主义设计是指当你不想传达任何信息并且看起来很酷的时候。
Yeah, it’s very cool.
是的，这很酷。
2:34:56 It’s pretentious, right?
这很自命不凡，对吧？
Pretentious or not, the function is useless.
不管是不是自命不凡，这个功能都没啥用。
2:34:58 This is about a lot of information delivered to you in a clean and when it’s clean, you can’t be too sexy.
这是关于以干净的方式传递给你的很多信息，当它干净的时候，你不能太性感。
So, it’s sexy enough.
所以，它足够性感。
Yeah.
是的。
2:35:09 This is I think how my brain looks.
这就是我认为我的大脑的样子。
There’s a lot of shit going on.
有很多糟糕的事情发生。
It’s like drawing bass music.
这就像绘制低音音乐。
It’s very tk-tk-tk-tk.
非常tk-tk-tk-tk。
Yeah.
是的。
2:35:15 But this is still pretty, the spacing of everything is nice.
但这仍然很漂亮，一切的间距都很好。
The fonts are really nice, very readable, very small-
字体非常好，非常易读，非常小-
Yeah, I like it as you know, but I made it so I don’t trust my own judgment.
是的，正如你所知，我喜欢它，但我这样做是因为我不相信自己的判断。
No, this is really nice.
不，这真的很好。
Thank you, Lex.
谢谢你，莱克斯。
The emojis are somehow…
表情符号不知何故……
2:35:28 It’s a style.
这是一种风格。
It’s a thing.
这是一件事。
I need to pick the emoji.
我需要选择表情符号。
2:35:32 It takes a while to pick them.
挑选它们需要一段时间。
There’s something about the emojis is a really nice memorable placeholder for the idea.
表情符号确实是这个想法的一个非常好的令人难忘的占位符。
2:35:35 If it was just text, it would actually be overwhelming if it was just text.
如果只是文字的话，如果只是文字的话，实际上会让人不知所措。
The emoji really helps.
表情符号真的很有帮助。
It’s a brilliant addition.
这是一个很棒的补充。
Some people might look at it.
有些人可能会看一下。
Why do you have emojis everywhere?
为什么到处都有表情符号？
It’s actually really…
其实真的是……
For me, it’s really-
对我来说，这真的是——
People tell me to remove the emoji.
人们告诉我删除表情符号。
Yeah.
是的。
2:35:54 Well, people don’t know what they’re talking about.
好吧，人们不知道他们在说什么。
Take it next to the picture.
将其放在图片旁边。
I’m sure people will tell you a lot of things.
我相信人们会告诉你很多事情。
2:35:58 This is really nice.
这真的很好。
And then, using color is nice.
然后，使用颜色很好。
Small font, but not too small.
字体虽小，但也不能太小。
And obviously, you have to show maps, which is really tricky.
显然，你必须显示地图，这确实很棘手。
Yeah.
是的。
2:36:11 Nice.
好的。
No.
不。
2:36:12 This is really, really, really nice.
这真的非常非常非常好。
Okay, how this looks when you hover over it, it’s-
好吧，当你将鼠标悬停在它上面时，它看起来是这样的——
Like the CSS transitions.
就像 CSS 过渡一样。
No, I understand that, but I’m sure there’s…
不，我明白，但我确信……
2:36:21 How long does it take you to figure out how you want it to look?
您需要多长时间才能弄清楚您想要它的外观？
Do you ever go down a rabbit hole where you spent two weeks?
你有没有去过一个你待了两周的兔子洞？
No, it’s iterative.
不，这是迭代的。
2:36:30 It’s like 10 years of add a CSS transition here or do this or-
这就像 10 年在这里添加 CSS 过渡或执行此操作或-
Well, see these are rounded now?
好吧，看到这些现在是圆形了吗？
Yeah.
是的。
If you wanted to, round is probably the better way, but if you want it to be rectangular, sharp corners, what would you do?
如果你愿意，圆形可能是更好的方式，但如果你想要它是矩形的、尖角的，你会怎么做？
2:36:38 You just go-
你只要走——
So, I go through the index at CSS, and I do command F and I search border radius 12px.
因此，我浏览 CSS 的索引，执行命令 F 并搜索边框半径 12px。
2:36:45 And then, I replace with border radius zero.
然后，我用边界半径零替换。
And then, I do command enter and it’s Git deploys…
然后，我输入命令，Git 就会部署……
It pushes it to the GitHub, and then sends a web book, and then deploys to my server and it’s live in five seconds.
它将它推送到 GitHub，然后发送一本网络书，然后部署到我的服务器，五秒钟后就可以上线了。
You often deploy it to production?
您经常将其部署到生产中吗？
2:37:04 You don’t have a testing ground?
你们没有试验场吗？
No.
不。
2:37:08 So, I’m famous for this because I’m too lazy to set up a staging server on my laptop every time.
所以，我因此而闻名，因为我懒得每次都在我的笔记本电脑上设置临时服务器。
So, nowadays, I just deploy to production and man, I’m going to be canceled for this.
所以，现在，我只是部署到生产环境，但我将因此被取消。
But it works very well for me.
但它对我来说非常有效。
Because I have a lot have PHP, Lint and JSON, so it tells me when there’s errors.
因为我有很多 PHP、Lint 和 JSON，所以当出现错误时它会告诉我。
So, I don’t deploy, but literally, I have like 37,000 Git commits in the last 12 months or something.
所以，我不进行部署，但实际上，在过去 12 个月之类的时间里，我有大约 37,000 个 Git 提交。
So, I make small fix, and then come out, enter and sends to GitHub.
所以，我做了一些小修改，然后出来，输入并发送到 GitHub。
GitHub sends a web to server, web server pulls it, deploys the production and is there.
GitHub 将 Web 发送到服务器，Web 服务器拉取它，部署生产并在那里。
What’s the latency of that from you pressing command?
您按下命令的延迟是多少？
One second, can be one to two seconds.
一秒，可以是一到两秒。
So, you just make a change and then you’re getting really good at not making mistakes basically?
那么，你只要做出改变，然后你就基本上能够做到不犯错误了？
Man, 100% you’re right.
伙计，你100%是对的。
2:37:53 People are like, “How can you do this, where you get good at not taking the server down?” Because you need to code more carefully.
人们会说，“你怎么能做到这一点，你擅长不关闭服务器？”因为你需要更仔细地编码。
But look, it’s idiotic in any big company.
但你看，这在任何大公司都是愚蠢的。
But for me it works because it makes me so fast.
但对我来说它很有效，因为它让我跑得很快。
Somebody will report a bug on Twitter and I do a stopwatch.
有人会在 Twitter 上报告错误，我会做秒表。
2:38:11 How fast can I fix this bug?
我能多快修复这个错误？
And then, two minutes later, for example, it’s fixed.
然后，例如，两分钟后，问题就解决了。
And it’s fun because it’s annoying for me to work with companies where you report a bug and it takes six months.
这很有趣，因为与我报告错误并且需要六个月时间的公司合作对我来说很烦人。
It’s horrible.
太可怕了。
And it makes people really happy when you can really quickly solve their problems.
当你能够真正快速地解决人们的问题时，他们会感到非常高兴。
But it’s crazy.
但这太疯狂了。
I don’t think it’s crazy.
我不认为这很疯狂。
2:38:29 I’m sure there’s a middle ground, but I think that whole thing where there’s a phase of testing, and there’s the staging, and there’s the development, and then there’s multiple tables and databases that you use for the state, it’s-
我确信有一个中间立场，但我认为整个事情有一个测试阶段，有分阶段，有开发，然后有多个用于状态的表和数据库，它是-
Filing.
归档。
It’s a mess.
真是一团糟。
2:38:46 And there’s different teams involved.
并且涉及不同的团队。
It’s no good.
这可不行。
I’m like a good funny extreme on the other side.
我就像另一边的一个有趣的极端。
But just a little bit safer, but not too much.
但只是稍微安全一点，但也不是太多。
2:38:51 It would be great.
那就太好了。
Yeah.
是的。
2:38:55 Yeah.
是的。
And I’m sure that’s actually how X now, how they’re doing rapid improvement.
我确信这实际上就是 X 现在的方式，他们正在快速改进。
2:38:56 That’s exactly-
那正是——
They do because there’s more bugs and people complain about like, “Oh look, he bought this Twitter and now it’s full of bugs.” Dude, the shipping stuff, things are happening now.
他们这样做是因为存在更多错误，人们会抱怨，“哦，看，他买了这个 Twitter，现在它充满了错误。”伙计，运输的事情，事情正在发生。
2:39:01 And it’s a dynamic app now.
现在它是一个动态应用程序。
Yeah.
是的。
2:39:10 The bugs is actually a sign of a good thing happening.
这些错误实际上是好事发生的征兆。
The bugs are the feature because it shows that the team is actually building shit.
这些错误就是一个功能，因为它表明团队实际上正在构建垃圾。
A hundred percent.
百分之一百。
Well, one of the problems is like I see with YouTube, there’s so much potential to build features, but I just see how long it takes.
嗯，问题之一就像我在 YouTube 上看到的那样，构建功能的潜力很大，但我只是看到需要多长时间。
2:39:17 So, I’ve gotten a chance to interact with many other teams.
因此，我有机会与许多其他团队互动。
But one of the teams is MLA, multi-language audio.
但其中一个团队是 MLA（多语言音频）。
I don’t know if you know this, but in YouTube you can have audio tracks in different languages for overdubbing.
我不知道你是否知道这一点，在 YouTube 中你可以有不同语言的音轨进行配音。
2:39:40 And there’s a team and not many people are using it, but every single feature, they have to meet and agree.
有一个团队，没有多少人在使用它，但每一个功能，他们都必须会面并达成一致。
And there’s allocate resources.
还有分配资源。
Engineers have to work on it.
工程师必须为此努力。
But I’m sure it’s a pain in the ass for the engineers to get approval because it has to not break the rest of the site, whatever they do.
但我确信工程师获得批准是一件痛苦的事情，因为无论他们做什么，都不能破坏网站的其余部分。
But if you don’t have enough dictatorial top down, when-
但如果你没有足够的自上而下的独裁，那么——
2:40:00 …
……
have enough dictatorial top-down like we need this now.
有足够的自上而下的独裁，就像我们现在需要的那样。
It’s going to take forever to do anything multi-language audio, but multi-language audio is a good example of a thing that seems niche right now, but it quite possibly could change the entire world.
做任何多语言音频都需要很长时间，但多语言音频是一个很好的例子，它现在看起来似乎很小众，但它很可能会改变整个世界。
When I upload this conversation right here, if instantaneously it dubs it into 40 languages and everybody consume, every single video can be watched and listened to in those different …
当我在这里上传这段对话时，如果它立即将其配音成 40 种语言并且每个人都使用，那么每个视频都可以用不同的语言观看和收听......
It changes everything.
它改变了一切。
And YouTube is extremely well positioned to be the leader in this.
YouTube 完全有能力成为这方面的领导者。
They got the compute.
他们得到了计算。
They got the user base.
他们获得了用户群。
They have the experience of how to do this.
他们有如何做到这一点的经验。
So, multi-language audio should be-
所以，多语言音频应该是-
High priority feature, right?
高优先级功能，对吧？
Yeah.
是的。
2:40:47 That’s high priority and it’s a way …
这是一个高度优先的事项，也是一种方式……
Google’s obsessed with AI right now, they want to show off that they could be dominant in AI.
谷歌现在痴迷于人工智能，他们想炫耀自己可以在人工智能领域占据主导地位。
That’s a way for Google to say, “We used AI.” This is a way to break down the walls, that language craze.
这是谷歌表达“我们使用了人工智能”的一种方式。这是一种打破语言热潮的围墙的方式。
The preferred outcome for them is probably their career, not the overall result of the cool product.
他们更喜欢的结果可能是他们的职业生涯，而不是酷产品的整体结果。
I think they’re not selfish or whatever.
我认为他们并不自私或其他什么。
2:41:07 There’s something about the machine-
这台机器有一些东西——
The organization.
组织。
The organizational stuff that just [inaudible 02:41:14]-
组织方面的事情 [听不清 02:41:14]-
I have this when I report box on big companies I work with.
当我报告与我合作的大公司时，我会看到这个。
2:41:14 I talk to a lot of different people in DM and they’re all really trying hard to do something.
我在 DM 中与很多不同的人交谈过，他们都非常努力地做某事。
They’re all really nice and I’m the one being kind of asshole because I’m like, “Guys, I’m talking to 20 people about this for six months, nothing’s happening.” They say, ” Man, I know, but I’m trying my best.” And yeah, so it’s systemic.
他们都很好，而我是一个有点混蛋的人，因为我想，“伙计们，我和 20 个人谈论这个问题六个月了，什么也没发生。”他们说：“伙计，我知道，但我正在尽力。”是的，所以它是系统性的。
Yeah.
是的。
2:41:34 It requires, again, I don’t know if there must be a nicer word, but a dictatorial type of top-down the CEO rolls in and just says for YouTube, it’s like MLA, get this done now.
再说一次，我不知道是否有更好的词，但是一位自上而下的独裁型首席执行官介入，只是对 YouTube 说，这就像 MLA，现在就完成这件事。
This is the highest priority.
这是最高优先级。
I think big companies, especially in America, a lot of it is legal.
我认为大公司，特别是在美国，很多都是合法的。
2:41:48 You need to pass everything through legal.
你需要通过法律途径解决一切问题。
And you can’t like, man, the things I do, I could never do that in a big corporation because everything has to be probably get deployed, has to go through legal.
你不能喜欢我所做的事情，我永远不可能在大公司里做到这一点，因为一切都必须得到部署，必须经过法律程序。
Well, again, dictatorial.
好吧，又是独裁。
2:42:01 You basically say Steve Jobs did this quite a lot.
你基本上可以说史蒂夫·乔布斯做了很多这样的事。
I’ve seen a lot of leaders do this.
我见过很多领导这样做。
Ignore the lawyers.
无视律师。
Ignore comps.
忽略比较。
Exactly.
确切地。
2:42:10 Yeah.
是的。
Ignore PR.
忽略公关。
2:42:11 Ignore everybody.
无视所有人。
Give power to the engineers.
把权力交给工程师。
Listen to the people on the ground, get this shit done and get it done by Friday.
听听当地人民的意见，把这件事完成，并在周五之前完成。
That’s it.
就是这样。
And the law can change.
法律可以改变。
2:42:20 For example, let’s say you launch this AI dubbing and there’s some legal problems with lawsuits, so the law changes, there will be appeals, there will be some Supreme Court thing, whatever, and the law changes.
例如，假设你推出了这个人工智能配音，并且存在一些诉讼方面的法律问题，因此法律会发生变化，会有上诉，会有一些最高法院的事情，无论如何，法律会发生变化。
So, just by shipping it, you change society, you change the legal framework.
因此，仅仅通过运输，你就改变了社会，改变了法律框架。
By not shipping, being scared of the legal framework all the time, you’re not changing things.
如果不发货，一直害怕法律框架，你就不会改变事情。
Just out of curiosity, what ID do you use?
好奇一下，你用的是什么ID？
2:42:39 Let’s talk about your whole setup.
让我们谈谈您的整个设置。
Given how ultra productive you are that you often program in your underwear slouching on the couch, does it matter to you in general?
考虑到你经常穿着内衣懒洋洋地坐在沙发上编程，你的工作效率有多高，这对你来说很重要吗？
Is there a specific ID you use?
您使用的具体 ID 是否有？
VS Code?
VS 代码？
Yeah, VS Code.
是的，VS 代码。
2:42:57 Before, I used Sublime text.
之前我用的是Sublime text。
I don’t think it matters a lot.
我认为这并不重要。
I think I’m very skeptical of tools when people think they say it matters, right?
当人们认为工具很重要时，我想我对工具非常怀疑，对吧？
I don’t think it matters.
我认为这并不重要。
I think whatever tool you know very well, you can go very fast.
我认为无论你熟悉什么工具，你都可以做得很快。
And the shortcuts, for example, IDE.
还有快捷方式，例如 IDE。
I love Sublime text because I could use multi-cursor.
我喜欢 Sublime text，因为我可以使用多光标。
You search something and then I could make mass replaces in a file with the cursor thing and the VS Code doesn’t really have that as well.
你搜索一些东西，然后我可以用光标在文件中进行批量替换，而 VS Code 也没有这样的功能。
Sublime is the first editor where I’ve learned that.
Sublime 是我学到的第一个编辑器。
2:43:27 And I think they just make that super easy.
我认为他们让这变得超级简单。
So, what would that be called?
那么，那会被称为什么呢？
Multi-edit.
多重编辑。
Multi-cursor.
多光标。
Multi-cursor edit thing, whatever.
多光标编辑东西，无论如何。
So good.
超好的。
I’m sure almost every editor can do that.
我相信几乎每个编辑都能做到这一点。
2:43:39 It’s just probably hard to set up.
只是可能很难设置。
Yeah, VS Code’s not so good at it, I think, or at least I tried it.
是的，我认为 VS Code 不太擅长，或者至少我尝试过。
2:43:44 But I would use that to process data, like data sets.
但我会用它来处理数据，比如数据集。
For example, from World Bank.
例如，来自世界银行。
I would just multi-cursor mass change everything.
我只会用多光标来改变一切。
But yeah, VS Code.
但是，是的，VS Code。
Man, I was bullied into using VS Code because Twitter would always see my screenshots of Sublime text and say, “Why are you still using Sublime text, Boomer.
伙计，我被胁迫才使用 VS Code，因为 Twitter 总是会看到我的 Sublime text 屏幕截图并说：“你为什么还在使用 Sublime text，Boomer。
You need to use VS Code.” I’m like, “Yeah, I’ll try it.” I got a new MacBook and then I never install.
你需要使用 VS Code。”我想，“是的，我会尝试一下。”我买了一台新 MacBook，但我从未安装过。
I never copy the old MacBook.
我从不抄袭旧MacBook。
I just make it fresh, like a clean format C Windows, clean starts.
我只是让它变得新鲜，就像一个干净的格式C Windows，干净的开始。
And I’m like, “Okay, I’ll try VS Code.” And it’s stuck, but I don’t really care.
我想，“好吧，我会尝试 VS Code。”它被卡住了，但我不在乎。
It’s not so important for me.
这对我来说并不那么重要。
Wow.
哇。
2:44:23 The format C reference, huh?
格式 C 参考，是吗？
Dude, it was so good.
伙计，那太好了。
2:44:25 You would install windows and then after three or six months, it would start breaking and everything gets slow.
你会安装窗户，然后三六个月后，它就会开始损坏，一切都会变得缓慢。
Then you would restart, go to DOS, format C, you would delete your hard drive and then install the Windows 95 again.
然后重新启动，进入DOS，格式化C，删除硬盘，然后再次安装Windows 95。
It was so good times.
那真是美好的时光。
And you would design everything.
你会设计一切。
Now, I’m going to install it properly.
现在，我要正确安装它。
Now, I’m going to design my desktop properly.
现在，我要正确设计我的桌面。
Yeah, I don’t know if it’s peer pressure, but I used Emacs for many, many years and I love Lisp, so a lot of the customization is done in Lisp.
是的，我不知道这是否是同侪压力，但我使用 Emacs 很多很多年了，而且我喜欢 Lisp，所以很多定制都是用 Lisp 完成的。
2:44:47 It’s a programming language.
它是一种编程语言。
Partially, it was peer pressure, but part of it is realizing you need to keep learning stuff.
部分原因是来自同侪压力，但部分原因是意识到你需要不断学习东西。
The same issue with jQuery.
jQuery 也有同样的问题。
I still think I need to learn NodeJS for example, even though that’s not my main thing or even close to the main thing.
例如，我仍然认为我需要学习 NodeJS，尽管这不是我的主要事情，甚至接近主要事情。
But I feel like you need to keep learning this stuff.
但我觉得你需要继续学习这些东西。
And even if you don’t choose to use it long term, you need to give it a chance.
即使您不选择长期使用它，您也需要给它一个机会。
So, your understanding of the world expands.
因此，你对世界的理解会扩展。
Yeah, you want to understand the new technological concepts and see if they can benefit you.
是的，你想了解新的技术概念，看看它们是否能让你受益。
2:45:23 It would be stupid not to even try it.
不尝试一下就太愚蠢了。
It’s more about the concepts I would say, than the actual tools expanding.
我想说的更多的是概念，而不是实际的工具扩展。
2:45:30 And that can be a challenging thing.
这可能是一件具有挑战性的事情。
So, going to VS Code and really learning it, all the shortcuts, all the extensions, and actually installing different stuff and playing with it, that was an interesting challenge.
因此，进入 VS Code 并真正学习它、所有快捷方式、所有扩展，并实际安装不同的东西并使用它，这是一个有趣的挑战。
It was uncomfortable at first.
一开始很不舒服。
Yeah, for me too.
是的，对我来说也是如此。
2:45:46 Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
2:45:47 But you just dive in.
但你只是潜入。
It’s like NeuroFlex, like you keep your brain fresh, this kind of stuff.
就像 NeuroFlex，让你的大脑保持新鲜，诸如此类的东西。
I got to do that more.
我必须做得更多。
2:45:52 Have you given React a chance?
你给过React机会吗？
No, but I want to learn.
没有，但我想学。
2:45:56 I understand the basics.
我了解基础知识。
I don’t really know where to start.
我真的不知道从哪里开始。
But I guess you got to use your own model, which is build the thing using it.
但我想你必须使用你自己的模型，即使用它来构建东西。
No, man, so I kind of did that.
不，伙计，所以我就这么做了。
2:46:09 The stuff I do in jQuery is essentially a lot of it is like I start rebuilding whatever tech is already out there, not based on that, but just on accident.
我在 jQuery 中所做的事情本质上是很多，就像我开始重建任何已经存在的技术，不是基于此，而是偶然。
I keep going long enough that I built the same.
我坚持了足够长的时间，以至于我建造了同样的东西。
I start getting the same problems everybody else has and you start building the same frameworks kind.
我开始遇到与其他人相同的问题，而你开始构建相同的框架类型。
So, essentially I use my own framework of-
所以，本质上我使用我自己的框架-
So, you basically build a framework from scratch that’s your own, that you understand it.
所以，你基本上从头开始构建一个你自己的、你理解它的框架。
Kind of, yeah, with Ajax calls, but that’s essentially the same thing.
是的，有点像 Ajax 调用，但本质上是一样的。
2:46:32 Look, I don’t have the time.
你看，我没有时间。
And I think saying you don’t have the time is always a lie because you just don’t prioritize it enough.
我认为说你没有时间总是谎言，因为你没有足够优先考虑它。
My priority is still running the businesses and improving that and AI.
我的首要任务仍然是经营业务并改进业务和人工智能。
I think learning AI is much more valuable now than learning front end framework.
我觉得现在学习AI比学习前端框架更有价值。
It’s just more impact.
只是影响更大而已。
I guess you should be just learning every single day a thing.
我想你应该每天都学习一件事。
Yeah, you can learn a little bit every day, a little bit of React or I think now Next is very big, so learn a little bit of Next.
是啊，你可以每天学一点，一点React或者我觉得现在Next很大，所以学一点Next。
2:46:58 But I call them the military industrial complex.
但我称它们为军工联合体。
But you need to know, know it anyway.
但你需要知道，无论如何都要知道。
You got to learn how to use the weapons of war and then you can be a peacemaker.
你必须学习如何使用战争武器，然后你才能成为一名和平缔造者。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, I mean, but you got to learn it in the same exact way as we were talking about, which is learn it by trying to build something with it and actually deploy it.
是的，我的意思是，但是你必须以与我们谈论的完全相同的方式来学习它，即通过尝试用它构建一些东西并实际部署它来学习它。
The frameworks are so complicated and it changes so fast.
框架是如此复杂，而且变化如此之快。
2:47:25 So, it’s like where do I start?
那么，就像我从哪里开始呢？
And I guess it’s the same thing when you’re starting out making websites, where do you start as GPT-4, I guess.
我想当你开始制作网站时也是一样的，我想你从 GPT-4 开始。
But yeah, it’s just so dynamic.
但是，是的，它是如此充满活力。
It changes so fast that I don’t know if it would be a good idea for me to learn it.
它变化如此之快，我不知道学习它对我来说是否是一个好主意。
Maybe some combination of few Next with PHP Laravel.
也许是一些 Next 与 PHP Laravel 的组合。
Laravel is like a framework for PHP.
Laravel 就像 PHP 的框架。
I think that it could benefit me.
我认为这可以使我受益。
Maybe Tailwind for CSS, like a styling engine.
也许 CSS 的 Tailwind，就像一个样式引擎。
That stuff could probably save me time.
那东西可能可以节省我的时间。
But yeah, you won’t know until you really give it a try.
但是，是的，除非你真正尝试过，否则你不会知道。
2:47:58 And it feels like you have to build, if maybe I’m talking to myself, but I should probably recode my personal one page in Laravel.
感觉就像你必须构建，如果我可能在自言自语，但我可能应该在 Laravel 中重新编码我的个人页面。
Or even though it might not have almost any dynamic elements, maybe have one dynamic element, but it has to go end to end in that framework or end-to-end build in NodeJS.
或者，即使它可能几乎没有任何动态元素，也许有一个动态元素，但它必须在该框架中端到端地进行，或者在 NodeJS 中进行端到端的构建。
Some of it is figuring out how to you even deploy the thing.
其中一些是弄清楚如何部署该东西。
I have no idea.
我不知道。
2:48:29 All I know is right now, I would send it to GitHub and it sends it to my server.
我现在所知道的是，我会将其发送到 GitHub，然后它会将其发送到我的服务器。
I don’t know how to get JavaScript running.
我不知道如何让 JavaScript 运行。
I have no clue.
我不知道。
So, I guess I need a pass like Vercel or Heroku, those kind of platform.
所以，我想我需要像 Vercel 或 Heroku 这样的平台。
I actually just gave myself the idea of I just want to build a single webpage, one webpage that has one dynamic element and just do it in every single, in a lot of frameworks.
实际上，我只是给自己一个想法，我只想构建一个网页，一个具有一个动态元素的网页，并且只需在许多框架中的每个单独元素中执行此操作。
Ah, on the same page?
啊，在同一页上？
Same exact page.
完全相同的页面。
All the same?
都一样吗？
Kind of page.
页面类型。
That’s smart page.
这就是智能页面。
2:49:04 That’s a cool project.
这是一个很酷的项目。
You can learn all these frameworks.
您可以学习所有这些框架。
And you can see the differences.
你可以看到差异。
That’s interesting.
那很有意思。
How long it takes to do it.
需要多长时间才能做到。
Yeah, stopwatch.
是的，秒表。
I have to figure out actually something sufficiently complicated.
我实际上必须弄清楚一些足够复杂的事情。
2:49:11 Because it should probably do some kind of thing where it accesses the database and dynamically is changing stuff.
因为它可能应该做一些访问数据库并动态改变内容的事情。
Some AI stuff, some LLM stuff.
一些人工智能的东西，一些法学硕士的东西。
Yeah.
是的。
2:49:25 It doesn’t have to be AI LLM, but maybe API call.
不一定是 AI LLM，但也许是 API 调用。
But then you do it API.
但接下来你就用 API 来做。
API call to something.
对某些东西的 API 调用。
Yeah.
是的。
2:49:30 To replicate, for example.
例如，复制。
And then that would be a very cool part.
那将是一个非常酷的部分。
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊，是啊。
2:49:33 And time it.
并计时。
And also report on my happiness.
也报告一下我的幸福。
I’m going to totally do this.
我将完全做到这一点。
Because nobody benchmarks this.
因为没有人对此进行基准测试。
2:49:41 Nobody’s benchmark developer happiness with frameworks.
没有人能够衡量开发人员对框架的满意度。
Nobody’s benchmark the shipping time.
没有人对运输时间进行基准测试。
Just take a month and do this.
只要花一个月的时间就可以做到这一点。
2:49:47 How many frameworks are there?
有多少个框架？
There’s five main ways of doing it.
有五种主要方法可以做到这一点。
So, there’s backend and frontend.
所以，有后端和前端。
This stuff confused me, too.
这件事也让我很困惑。
2:49:58 Like React now apparently has become backend or something that used to be only frontend and you’re forced to do now backend also.
就像 React 现在显然已经成为后端或者以前只是前端的东西，你现在也被迫做后端。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
And then.
进而。
But you’re not really forced to do anything, according to the internet.
但根据互联网的说法，你并没有真正被迫做任何事情。
2:50:07 It’s actually not trivial to find the canonical way of doing things.
找到规范的做事方式实际上并不简单。
So, the standard, you go to the ice cream shop, there’s a million flavors.
所以，标准的，你去冰淇淋店，那里有一百万种口味。
I want vanilla.
我想要香草。
If I’ve never had ice cream in my life, can we just learn about ice cream?
如果我一生中从未吃过冰淇淋，我们可以学习冰淇淋吗？
I want vanilla.
我想要香草。
Sometimes they’ll literally name it vanilla.
有时他们会直接将其命名为香草。
But I want to know what’s the basic way, but not dumb, but the standard canonical common.
但我想知道基本的方法是什么，但不是愚蠢的，而是标准的规范通用的。
Yeah.
是的。
2:50:42 I want to know the dominant way.
我想知道主导方式。
Yeah, the dominant way.
是的，主导方式。
Like the 6% of developers do it like this.
就像 6% 的开发者就是这样做的。
2:50:44 It’s hard to figure that out.
很难弄清楚这一点。
That’s the problem.
这就是问题所在。
Yeah, maybe LLMs can help.
是的，也许 LLM 可以提供帮助。
2:50:50 Maybe you should explicitly ask what is the dominant-
也许你应该明确地问什么是主导-
Because they usually know the dominant.
因为他们通常都知道主导。
2:50:54 They give answers that are the most probable kind of, so that makes sense to ask them.
他们给出的答案是最有可能的，因此询问他们是有意义的。
And I think honestly, maybe what would help is if you want to learn or I would want to learn a framework, hire somebody that already does it and just sit with them and make something together.
老实说，我认为，如果你想学习或者我想学习一个框架，雇佣一个已经这样做的人，然后和他们坐在一起，一起做一些东西，也许会有帮助。
I’ve never done that, but I’ve thought about it.
我从来没有这样做过，但我想过。
So, that would be a very fast way to take their knowledge in my brain.
所以，这将是一种将他们的知识带入我大脑的非常快速的方法。
I’ve tried these kinds of things.
我已经尝试过这些事情。
2:51:19 What happens is it depends, if they’re a world-class developer, yes.
会发生什么取决于他们是否是世界级的开发人员，是的。
Oftentimes, they themselves are used to that thing and they have not themselves explored in other options.
通常，他们自己已经习惯了这种事情，并且自己没有探索过其他选择。
So, they have this dogmatic talking down to you, “This is the right way to do it.” It’s like, “No, no, no, we’re just exploring together.
所以，他们会教条地对你说：“这是正确的做法。”就像，“不，不，不，我们只是一起探索。
Okay, show me the cool thing you’ve tried,” which is it has to have open mindedness to NodeJS is not the right way to do web development.
好吧，告诉我你尝试过的很酷的事情，”这就是必须对 NodeJS 持开放态度，这并不是进行 Web 开发的正确方法。
It’s like one way.
这就像一种方式。
And there’s nothing wrong with the old LAMP, PHP, jQuery, vanilla JavaScript way.
旧的 LAMP、PHP、jQuery、vanilla JavaScript 方式没有任何问题。
It just has its pros and cons and you need to know what the pros and cons are.
它只有优点和缺点，你需要知道优点和缺点是什么。
Yeah, but those people exist.
是的，但那些人确实存在。
2:52:06 You could find those people probably.
你也许可以找到那些人。
Yeah.
是的。
If you want to learn AI, imagine you have Karpathy sitting next to you.
如果你想学习 AI，想象一下 Karpathy 坐在你旁边。
2:52:09 He does these YouTube videos.
他制作了这些 YouTube 视频。
It’s amazing.
太棒了。
He can teach it to a five-year-old about how to make LLM.
他可以教一个五岁的孩子如何获得法学硕士学位。
It’s amazing.
太棒了。
Imagine this guy sitting next to you and just teaching you, “Let’s make LLM together.” Holy shit.
想象一下，这个人坐在你旁边，教你，“让我们一起攻读法学硕士。”天啊。
It would be amazing.
这将是令人惊奇的。
Yeah.
是的。
2:52:26 I mean, Karpathy has its own style and I’m not sure he’s for everybody.
我的意思是，卡帕蒂有自己的风格，我不确定他适合所有人。
For example, a five-year-old.
例如，一个五岁的孩子。
It depends on the five-year-old.
这取决于五岁的孩子。
Yeah.
是的。
He’s super technical.
他技术超级好。
But he’s amazing because he’s super technical and he’s the only one who can explain this stuff in a simple way, which shows his complete genius.
但他很了不起，因为他技术超强，而且他是唯一一个能够用简单的方式解释这些东西的人，这显示了他的天才。
2:52:37 If you can explain without jargon, you’re like, “Wow.”
如果你能不用行话来解释，你会说，“哇。”
And build it from scratch.
并从头开始构建它。
Yeah, it’s like top tier, like, what a guy.
是的，就像顶级的人一样。
But he might be anti-framework because he builds from scratch.
但他可能是反框架的，因为他是从头开始构建的。
Exactly.
确切地。
2:52:57 Yeah.
是的。
Actually he probably is.
事实上他可能是。
Yeah.
是的。
He’s like you, but for AI.
他和你一样，只不过是人工智能。
Yeah.
是的。
2:53:02 So, maybe learning framework is a very bad idea for us.
所以，也许学习框架对我们来说是一个非常糟糕的主意。
Maybe we should stay in PHP and script kiddie and the…
也许我们应该留在 PHP 和脚本小子以及......
But you have to maybe by learning the framework, you learn what you want to yourself build from scratch.
但你必须通过学习框架，才能了解你想要自己从头开始构建的内容。
Yeah.
是的。
2:53:14 Maybe learn concepts, but you don’t actually have to start using it for your life, right?
也许学习概念，但你实际上不必开始在生活中使用它，对吗？
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
And you’re still a Mac guy, or was a Mac guy.
而且你仍然是 Mac 用户，或者曾经是 Mac 用户。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
2:53:21 I switched to Mac in 2014.
我于 2014 年切换到 Mac。
It was because when I wanted to start traveling and my brother was like, “Dude, get a MacBook.
这是因为当我想开始旅行时，我哥哥就说：“伙计，买台 MacBook。
It’s the standard now.” I’m like, “Wow, I need to switch from Windows.” And I had three screens, like windows.
现在这是标准。”我想，“哇，我需要从 Windows 切换过来。”我有三个屏幕，就像窗户一样。
I had this whole setup for music production.
我已经完成了音乐制作的整个设置。
I had to sell everything.
我不得不卖掉所有东西。
And then I had a MacBook and I remember opening up this MacBook box and it was so beautiful.
然后我有了一台 MacBook，我记得打开这个 MacBook 盒子，它太漂亮了。
It was this aluminum.
就是这种铝。
And then I opened it.
然后我打开了它。
I removed the screen protector thing.
我把屏幕保护膜去掉了。
It’s so beautiful.
太漂亮了。
And I didn’t touch it for three days.
而且我已经三天没碰它了。
I was just looking at it really.
我只是真的看看而已。
And I was still on the Windows computer.
而且我还在使用 Windows 计算机。
And then I went traveling with that.
然后我就带着它去旅行了。
2:53:56 And all my great things started when I switched to Mac, which sounds very dogmatic, right?
我所有伟大的事情都是从我切换到 Mac 开始的，这听起来很教条，对吧？
What great things are you talking about?
你在谈论什么伟大的事情？
All the businesses started working out.
所有的企业都开始运转。
2:54:03 I started traveling.
我开始旅行。
I started building startups.
我开始创办初创公司。
I started making money.
我开始赚钱了。
It all started when I switched to Mac.
这一切都是从我切换到 Mac 开始的。
Listen, you’re making me want to switch to Mac.
听着，你让我想切换到 Mac。
2:54:10 So, I either use Linux inside Windows with WSL or just Ubuntu Linux.
因此，我要么在 Windows 中使用带有 WSL 的 Linux，要么只使用 Ubuntu Linux。
But Windows for most stuff like editing or any Adobe products.
但 Windows 适合大多数内容，例如编辑或任何 Adobe 产品。
Yeah, like Adobe stuff, right?
是的，就像 Adobe 的东西，对吧？
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊，是啊。
2:54:28 Well, I guess you could do Mac stuff there.
嗯，我想你可以在那里做 Mac 的事情。
I wonder if I should switch.
我想知道我是否应该转行。
What do you miss about Windows?
您怀念 Windows 的什么？
What was the pros and cons?
有什么优点和缺点？
I think the Finder is horrible.
我觉得 Finder 太可怕了。
2:54:35 Mac.
苹果。
The what is horrible?
什么是可怕的？
The Finder.
发现者。
2:54:38 Oh, you don’t know the Finder?
哦，你不知道Finder吗？
So, there’s the Windows Explorer.
所以，就有了 Windows 资源管理器。
Yeah.
是的。
Windows Explorer is amazing.
Windows 资源管理器非常棒。
Thank you for talking down on me.
谢谢你贬低我。
The Finder is strange, man.
Finder 很奇怪，伙计。
2:54:44 There’s strange things.
有奇怪的事情。
There’s this bug where if you send, attach a photo on WhatsApp or Telegram, it just selects the whole folder and you almost accidentally can click Enter and you send all your photos, all your files to this chat group, happened to my girlfriend.
有一个错误，如果你在 WhatsApp 或 Telegram 上发送、附加照片，它只会选择整个文件夹，你几乎不小心点击 Enter 键，然后将所有照片、所有文件发送到这个聊天组，这种情况就发生在我女朋友身上。
She starts sending me photo, photo, photo.
她开始给我发照片、照片、照片。
So, Finder is very unusual, but it has Linux.
所以，Finder很不寻常，但它有Linux。
The whole thing is it’s Unix-based.
整个事情是基于 Unix 的。
So, you use the command?
那么，你使用命令吗？
Yeah, all the time.
是的，一直如此。
2:55:08 All the time.
一直以来。
And the cool thing is you can run, I think it’s like Unix, like Debian or whatever.
最酷的是你可以运行，我认为它就像 Unix、Debian 或其他什么。
You can run most Linux stuff on MacOS, which makes it very good for development.
你可以在 MacOS 上运行大多数 Linux 东西，这使得它非常适合开发。
I have my Nginx server.
我有我的 Nginx 服务器。
If I’m not lazy in set up my staging on my laptop, it’s just the Nginx server, the same as I have on my cloud server, the same way the websites run.
如果我不懒惰地在我的笔记本电脑上设置我的暂存，它只是 Nginx 服务器，与我在云服务器上的相同，与网站的运行方式相同。
And I can use almost everything, the same config files, configuration files, and it just works.
我几乎可以使用所有东西，相同的配置文件，配置文件，而且它就可以工作。
And that makes Mac a very good platform for Linux stuff, I think.
我认为这使得 Mac 成为 Linux 的一个非常好的平台。
Yeah.
是的。
2:55:41 Yeah.
是的。
Real Ubuntu is better, of course, but.
当然，真正的 Ubuntu 更好，但是。
Yeah, I’m in this weird situation, where I’m somewhat of a power user in Windows and let’s say Android and all the much smarter friends I have all using Mac and iPhone.
是的，我正处于这种奇怪的境地，我在某种程度上是 Windows 的高级用户，比如说 Android 以及我所有聪明得多的朋友都使用 Mac 和 iPhone。
2:55:45 And it’s like-
就像-
But you don’t want to go through the peer pressure.
但你不想承受同侪压力。
It’s not peer pressure.
这不是同侪压力。
2:56:06 It’s one of the reasons I want to have kids is that I would love to have kids as a baseline, but there’s a concern.
我想要孩子的原因之一是我希望有孩子作为基准，但有一个担忧。
Maybe there’s going to be a tradeoff or all this kind of stuff.
也许需要权衡或诸如此类的事情。
But you see these extremely successful smart people who are friends of mine, who have kids and are really happy they have kids.
但你会看到这些非常成功的聪明人，他们是我的朋友，他们有孩子，并且非常高兴他们有孩子。
So, that’s not peer pressure, that’s just a strong signal.
所以，这不是同侪压力，这只是一个强烈的信号。
Yeah.
是的。
2:56:28 It works for people.
它对人们有用。
It works for people.
它对人们有用。
2:56:29 And the same thing with Mac.
Mac 也是如此。
It’s like I don’t see, fundamentally, I don’t like closed systems.
就好像我不明白，从根本上来说，我不喜欢封闭的系统。
So, fundamentally, I like Windows more because there’s much more freedom.
所以，从根本上来说，我更喜欢 Windows，因为它有更多的自由。
Same with Android.
与安卓相同。
There’s much more freedom.
有更多的自由。
It’s much more customizable.
它更加可定制。
But all the cool kids, the smart kids are using Mac and iPhone.
但所有酷孩子、聪明孩子都在使用 Mac 和 iPhone。
It’s like, “All right, I need to give it a real chance,” especially for development, since more and more stuff is done in the cloud anyway.
就像，“好吧，我需要给它一个真正的机会”，特别是对于开发来说，因为无论如何，越来越多的事情是在云中完成的。
Anyway.
反正。
But it’s funny to hear you say all the good stuff started happening.
但听到你说所有美好的事情都开始发生，这很有趣。
Maybe I’ll be like that guy too.
也许我也会像那个人一样。
When I switched to Mac, all the good stuff started happening.
当我切换到 Mac 时，所有美好的事情都开始发生。
I think it’s just about the hardware.
我认为这只是硬件的问题。
2:57:10 It’s not so much about the software.
这与软件无关。
The hardware is so well-built, right?
硬件设施已经很完善了吧？
The keyboard.
键盘。
Yeah.
是的。
2:57:15 But look at the keyboard I use.
但看看我使用的键盘。
It is pretty cool.
这很酷。
That’s one word for it.
这是一个词。
2:57:19 What’s your favorite place to work?
你最喜欢在哪里工作？
On the couch.
在沙发上。
Does the couch matter?
沙发重要吗？
2:57:24 Is the couch at home or is it any couch?
沙发是家里的还是任何沙发？
No, like hotel couch.
不，就像酒店的沙发一样。
2:57:28 In the room.
在房间里。
In the room.
在房间里。
But I used to work very ergonomically with a standing desk and everything, perfect, eye height, screen, blah, blah, blah.
但我以前的工作方式非常符合人体工程学，有一张站立式办公桌和一切，完美，眼睛高度，屏幕，等等，等等。
2:57:31 And I felt like, man, this has to do with lifting too.
我觉得，伙计，这也与举重有关。
I started getting RSI, like a repetitive strain injury, like tingling stuff.
我开始出现重复性劳损，就像重复性劳损，还有刺痛感。
And it would go all the way on my back.
它会一直压在我的背上。
And I was sitting in a coworking space like 6:00 AM, sun comes up and I’m working and I’m coding and I hear a sound or something.
早上 6:00 左右，我坐在联合办公空间里，太阳升起，我正在工作、编码，我听到了声音或其他东西。
So, I look left and my neck gets stuck and I’m like, “Wow.
所以，我向左看，我的脖子被卡住了，我想，“哇。
Fuck.” And I’m like, “Am I dying?
他妈的。”我想，“我要死了吗？
And I’m probably dying.”
而且我可能快要死了。”
Yeah, probably dying.
是的，可能快要死了。
I don’t want to die in a coworking space.
我不想死在联合办公空间里。
2:58:06 I’m going to go home and die in peace and honor.
我要回家，平静而光荣地死去。
So, I closed my laptop and I put it in my backpack.
于是，我合上笔记本电脑，把它放进背包里。
And I walked to the street and got on my motorbike, went home and I lied down on a pillow with my legs up and stuff to get rid of this …
我走到街上，骑上摩托车，回到家，躺在枕头上，双腿抬起，然后用东西来摆脱这个……
Because it was my whole back.
因为那是我的整个背部。
And it was because I was working like this all the time.
这是因为我一直都是这样工作的。
So, I started getting a laptop stand everything ergonomically correct.
因此，我开始购买一个符合人体工程学的笔记本电脑支架。
2:58:34 But then I started lifting.
但后来我开始举重。
And since then, it seems like everything gets straightened out.
从那时起，一切似乎都变得顺理成章了。
Your posture, you’re more straight.
你的姿势，你更直。
And I’d never have RSI anymore, representative strain injury.
我再也不会出现 RSI 了，典型的劳损。
Never tingling anymore.
再也不会刺痛了。
No pains and stuff.
没有痛苦之类的东西。
So then, I started working on the sofa and it’s great.
然后，我开始在沙发上工作，这很棒。
It feels you’re close to the …
感觉你很接近……
I sit like this legs together and then a pillow and then a laptop, and then I work.
我像这样双腿并拢坐着，然后是一个枕头，然后是一台笔记本电脑，然后我就工作了。
Are you leaning back?
你向后靠吗？
Together like legs and then-
像双腿一样并拢，然后——
Where’s the mouse?
鼠标在哪里？
2:59:07 Using the-
使用-
No.
不。
2:59:09 So, everything’s trackpad on the MacOS, on the MacBook.
因此，MacOS 和 MacBook 上的一切都是触控板。
I used to have the Logitech MX mouse, the perfect ergonomic mouse-
我曾经拥有罗技 MX 鼠标，完美的人体工学鼠标 -
You’re just doing this little thing with the thing.
你只是用这个东西做这件小事。
Yes.
是的。
One screen?
一屏？
One screen.
一屏。
2:59:20 And I used to have three screens.
我以前有三个屏幕。
So, I come from the, I know where people come from.
所以，我来自，我知道人们来自哪里。
I had all this stuff, but then I realized that having it all condensed in one laptop.
我拥有所有这些东西，但后来我意识到将所有这些都浓缩在一台笔记本电脑中。
It’s a 16-inch MacBook, so it’s quite big.
这是一台 16 英寸的 MacBook，所以它相当大。
But having it one there is amazing because you’re so close to the tools.
但拥有它真是太棒了，因为你离这些工具太近了。
You’re so close to what’s happening.
你离正在发生的事情如此之近。
It’s like working on a car or something.
这就像在汽车或其他东西上工作。
Man, if you have three screens, you can look here, look there, you get also neck injury actually.
伙计，如果你有三个屏幕，你可以看这里，看那里，实际上你也会受伤。
Well, I don’t know.
好吧，我不知道。
2:59:45 This sounds like you’re part of a cult and you’re just trying to convince me.
听起来你是邪教的一部分，你只是想说服我。
I mean, but it’s good to hear that you can be ultra-productive on a single screen.
我的意思是，但很高兴听到您可以在单个屏幕上实现超高工作效率。
I mean, that’s crazy.
我的意思是，这太疯狂了。
Command Tab.
命令选项卡。
2:59:57 You Alt Tab.
你 Alt 选项卡。
When it’s Alt Tab.
当它是 Alt Tab 时。
MacOS is Command Tab, you can switch very fast.
MacOS是Command Tab，可以非常快速地切换。
So, you have the entire screen is taken out by VS Code, say you look at the code.
那么，你已经把整个屏幕都用VS Code取出来了，比如说你看代码。
3:00:02 And then if you deploy a website, you what?
然后，如果您部署一个网站，您会怎样？
Switch screen.
切换屏幕。
Command Tab to Chrome.
命令选项卡到 Chrome。
3:00:10 I used to have this swipe screen.
我以前用过这个刷屏。
You could do different screen spaces.
你可以做不同的屏幕空间。
I was like, “Ah, it’s too difficult.
我当时想：“啊，这太难了。
Let’s just put it all on one screen on the MacBook.”
让我们将所有内容都集中在 MacBook 的一个屏幕上。”
And you can be productive that way.
这样你就可以提高工作效率。
Yeah, very productive, yeah.
是的，非常有成效，是的。
3:00:23 More productive than before.
比以前更有成效。
Interesting.
有趣的。
3:00:27 Because I have three screens and two of them are vertical.
因为我有三个屏幕，其中两个是垂直的。
On the side.
在一边。
Yeah, the codes, right, yeah.
是的，代码，对，是的。
For the code, you can see a lot.
对于代码，你可以看到很多。
No, man, I love it.
不，伙计，我喜欢它。
3:00:34 I love seeing it with friends.
我喜欢和朋友一起看。
They have amazing battle stations, right, it’s called.
他们有令人惊叹的战斗站，对，就是这样的。
It’s amazing.
太棒了。
I want it, but I don’t want it.
我想要它，但我不想要它。
You like the constraints.
你喜欢限制。
That’s it.
就是这样。
There’s some aspect of the constraints, which once you get good at it, you can focus your mind and you can.
有一些方面的限制，一旦你擅长它，你就可以集中你的注意力，你就可以。
Man, I’m suspicious of more.
伙计，我怀疑更多。
3:00:50 Do you really need all the stuff?
你真的需要所有的东西吗？
It might slow me down actually.
实际上它可能会减慢我的速度。
That’s a good way to put it.
这是一个很好的表达方式。
3:00:55 I’m suspicious of more.
我怀疑还有更多。
Me too.
我也是。
I’m suspicious of more in all ways, in all walks-
我对各方面、各行各业的怀疑更多——
Because you can defend more.
因为你可以防守更多。
3:01:01 You can defend.
你可以防守。
Yeah.
是的。
My developer, I make money.
我的开发商，我赚钱。
I need to get more screens.
我需要获得更多屏幕。
I need to be more efficient.
我需要变得更有效率。
And then you read stuff about Mythical Man-Month, where hiring more people slows down a software product project that’s famous.
然后你会读到有关“人月神话”的内容，其中雇用更多的人会减慢著名的软件产品项目的速度。
I think you can use that metaphor maybe for tools as well.
我认为你也可以用这个比喻来形容工具。
Then I see friends just with gear acquisition syndrome that buying so much stuff, but they’re not that productive.
然后我看到有装备获取综合症的朋友买了很多东西，但他们的生产力并不高。
They have the best, most beautiful battle stations, desktops, everything.
他们拥有最好、最漂亮的战斗站、桌面，一切。
They’re not that productive.
他们的生产力并不高。
And it’s also fun.
这也很有趣。
It’s all from my laptop in a backpack.
这一切都来自我背包里的笔记本电脑。
It’s nomad, minimalist.
它是游牧的、极简主义的。
Take me through the perfect ultra productive day in your life.
带我度过你生命中完美、高效的一天。
3:01:35 Say where you get a lot of shit done and it’s all focused on getting shit done.
说一下你在哪里完成了很多事情，而这一切都集中在完成任务上。
When are you waking up?
你什么时候起床？
Is it a regular time?
是常规时间吗？
Super early, super late?
超级早，超级晚？
Yes.
是的。
3:01:52 So, I go to sleep at 2:00 AM usually, something like that and before 4:00 AM.
所以，我通常在凌晨 2:00 睡觉，大约在凌晨 4:00 之前。
But my girlfriend would go sleep midnight.
但我女朋友半夜就睡觉了。
So, we did a compromise like 2:00 AM.
所以，我们做了一个妥协，比如凌晨 2:00。
So, I wake up around 10:00, 11:00, no, more like 10:00.
所以，我在 10:00、11:00 左右起床，不，更像是 10:00。
Shower, make coffee.
淋浴，煮咖啡。
I make coffee, like drip coffee, like the V60, the filter.
我煮咖啡，喜欢滴滤式咖啡，喜欢 V60、滤滤式咖啡。
And I boil water and then put the coffee in and chill, live with my girlfriend, and then open laptops, start coding, check what’s going on, bugs or whatever.
我烧开水，然后把咖啡放进去冷却，和我女朋友住在一起，然后打开笔记本电脑，开始编码，检查发生了什么，错误或其他什么。
How stretches of time are you able to just sit behind the computer coding?
您能在多长的时间里坐在电脑后面编码？
So, I used to need really long stretches where I would do all-nighters and stuff to get shit done.
所以，我过去常常需要长时间的伸展运动，通宵达旦地做一些事情来完成任务。
3:02:28 But I’ve gotten trained to have more interruptions where I can-
但我已经接受过训练，可以尽可能多地打断——
Because you have to.
因为你必须这样做。
This is life.
这就是生活。
3:02:39 There’s a lot of distractions.
有很多干扰。
Your girlfriend asks stuff, people come over, whatever.
你的女朋友问一些事情，人们过来，等等。
So, I’m very fast now.
所以，我现在的速度很快。
I can lock in and lock out quite fast.
我可以很快地锁定和锁定。
And I heard people, developers or entrepreneurs with kids have the same thing.
我听说有孩子的人、开发人员或企业家也有同样的想法。
Before, they’re like, “Ah, I cannot work.” But they get used to it and they get really productive in short time because they only have 20 minutes.
以前，他们会说，“啊，我不能工作。”但他们很快就习惯了，而且很快就变得富有成效，因为他们只有 20 分钟的时间。
And then shit goes crazy again.
然后狗屎又变得疯狂了。
So, another constraint, right?
那么，另一个限制，对吗？
Yeah.
是的。
3:03:02 It’s funny.
这很有趣。
So, I think that works for me.
所以，我认为这对我有用。
3:03:03 And then cook food and stuff.
然后煮食物和东西。
Have lunch, steak and chicken and whatever.
吃午餐，牛排和鸡肉什么的。
You eat a bunch of times a day.
你一天要吃很多次。
3:03:11 So, you said coffee, what are you doing?
那么，你说咖啡，你在做什么？
Yeah, so a few hours later, cook foods.
是的，所以几个小时后，做饭。
3:03:14 We get locally sourced meat and stuff and vegetables and cook that.
我们购买当地的肉类、食材和蔬菜，然后进行烹饪。
And then second coffee and then go some more.
然后喝第二杯咖啡，然后再喝一杯。
Maybe go outside for lunch.
也许去外面吃午饭。
You can mix fun stuff.
你可以混合有趣的东西。
How many hours are you saying a perfectly productive day you’re doing programming?
您所说的一天有多少个小时在进行编程是非常高效的？
3:03:27 If you were to kill it, are you doing all day basically?
如果你要杀死它，你基本上整天都在做吗？
You mean the special days where …
你的意思是那些特殊的日子......
Special days.
特别的日子。
…
……
3:03:37 girlfriend leaves to Paris or something and you’re alone for a week at home, which is amazing.
女朋友去巴黎什么的，而你一个人在家待了一个星期，这太棒了。
You can just code.
你只需编码即可。
It’s like you stay up all night and eat chocolates.
就像你熬夜吃巧克力一样。
Yeah, chocolate.
是的，巧克力。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊，是啊。
3:03:47 Okay, okay.
好吧，好吧。
Let’s remove girlfriend from picture.
让我们把女朋友从照片中删除吧。
Social life from picture.
从图片中看社会生活。
It’s just you.
这就是你。
Man, that shit goes crazy.
伙计，这玩意儿太疯狂了。
Because when shit goes crazy.
因为当狗屎变得疯狂时。
And now shit goes crazy.
现在狗屎变得疯狂了。
Okay.
好的。
3:03:57 Let’s rewind.
让我们回顾一下。
Are you still waking up?
你还醒着吗？
There’s coffee.
有咖啡。
There’s no girlfriend to talk to.
没有女朋友可以说话。
There’s no-
没有-
Now we wake up like 1:00 PM, 2:00 PM.
现在我们会在下午 1:00、2:00 起床。
Because you went to bed at 6:00 PM.
因为你下午 6:00 就睡觉了。
Yeah, because I was coding.
是的，因为我正在编码。
3:04:13 I was finding some new AI shit.
我发现了一些新的人工智能狗屎。
And I was studying it and it was amazing.
我正在研究它，这真是太神奇了。
And I cannot sleep because it’s too important.
我无法入睡，因为这太重要了。
We need to stay awake.
我们需要保持清醒。
We need to see all of this.
我们需要看到这一切。
We need to make something now.
我们现在需要做点什么。
But that’s the times I do make new stuff more.
但那是我确实制作更多新东西的时候。
So, I think I have a friend, he actually books a hotel for a week to leave his …
所以，我想我有一个朋友，他实际上预订了一家酒店一周，以离开他的……
And he has a kid too.
而且他也有一个孩子。
And his girlfriend and his kid stay in the house and he goes to another hotel.
他的女朋友和孩子留在家里，他去了另一家酒店。
Sounds a little suspicious, right?
听起来有点可疑，对吧？
Going to a hotel.
去旅馆。
3:04:39 But all he does is writing or coding.
但他所做的只是写作或编码。
He’s a writer and he needs this alone time, this silence.
他是一名作家，他需要独处的时间，这种安静。
And I think for this flow state, it’s true.
我认为对于这种心流状态来说，这是真的。
I’m better maintaining stuff when there’s a lot of disruptions than creating new stuff.
当有很多干扰时，我最好维护东西，而不是创造新东西。
I need this.
我需要这个。
It’s common, this flow state, this uninterrupted period of time.
这种流动状态、这种不间断的时间很常见。
So, yeah, I wake up 1:00, 2: 00 PM, still coffee, shower, we still shower.
所以，是的，我下午 1:00、2:00 起床，仍然喝咖啡，淋浴，我们仍然淋浴。
And then just code non-stop.
然后就不停地编码。
Maybe my friend comes over, comes over anyway.
也许我的朋友会过来，无论如何都会过来。
Just some distraction.
只是一些分散注意力的事情。
Yeah.
是的。
3:05:11 Also, Andre, he codes too, so he comes over.
还有，安德烈，他也编码，所以他过来了。
We code together.
我们一起编码。
We listen.
我们听。
It starts going back to the [inaudible 03:05:17] days.
它开始回到 [听不清 03:05:17] 的日子。
Yeah, coworking days.
是的，共同办公的日子。
So, you’re not really working with him, but you’re just both working.
所以，你并没有真正和他一起工作，只是你们都在工作。
Because it’s nice to have the vibe where you both sit together on the couch and coding on something and actually, it’s mostly silent or there’s music and sometimes you ask something, but generally, you are really locked in.
因为你们一起坐在沙发上编码的感觉很好，实际上，大部分时间都是安静的，或者有音乐，有时你会问一些问题，但一般来说，你真的被锁定了。
What music are you listening to?
你在听什么音乐？
I think techno, like YouTube techno.
我认为 techno，就像 YouTube techno。
3:05:37 There’s a channel called HOR with a umlaut, like H-O like double dot.
有一个名为 HOR 的通道，带有变音符号，就像 H-O 像双点一样。
It’s Berlin techno, whatever.
无论如何，这是柏林科技。
They film it in a toilet with white tiles and stuff.
他们在一个铺着白色瓷砖和其他东西的厕所里拍摄。
And very cool.
而且非常酷。
And they always have very good industrial-
他们总是有很好的工业-
Industrial, so fast-paced heavy.
工业化，所以快节奏沉重。
Kind of aggressive.
有点咄咄逼人。
Yeah.
是的。
3:05:59 That’s not distracting to your brain?
这不会分散你的大脑注意力吗？
No, it’s amazing.
不，这太神奇了。
3:06:03 I think distracting, man, jazz.
我认为爵士乐会让人分心。
I listen, coffee jazz with my girlfriend when I wake up and it’s kind like this piano starts getting annoying.
当我醒来时，我和女朋友一起听着咖啡爵士乐，感觉这架钢琴开始变得烦人了。
It’s like it’s too many tones.
好像音调太多了。
It’s like too many things going on.
好像发生了太多事情。
This industrial techno is like these African rain dances.
这种工业技术就像这些非洲雨舞。
It’s this transcendental trance.
这就是这种超然的恍惚状态。
That’s interesting because I actually mostly now listen to brown noise.
这很有趣，因为我现在主要听棕色噪音。
3:06:23 Noise.
噪音。
Yeah.
是的。
3:06:30 Wow.
哇。
Pretty loud.
声音很大。
Wow.
哇。
And one of the things you learn is your brain gets used to whatever.
你学到的一件事是你的大脑会习惯任何事情。
3:06:33 So, I’m sure to techno, if I actually give it a real chance, my brain would get used to it.
所以，我确信技术，如果我真的给它一个真正的机会，我的大脑会习惯它。
But with noise, what happens is is something happens to your brain.
但有了噪音，你的大脑就会发生一些变化。
I think there’s a science to it, but I don’t really care.
我认为这是有科学依据的，但我并不关心。
You just have to be a scientist of one, study yourself, your own brain.
你只需要成为一名科学家，研究你自己，你自己的大脑。
For me, it does something.
对我来说，它确实有作用。
I discovered it right away when I tried it for the first time.
当我第一次尝试时我立刻就发现了它。
After about a couple of minutes, everything, every distraction just disappears.
大约几分钟后，一切、所有干扰都消失了。
And it goes like, shh.
它就像，嘘。
You can hold focus on things really well.
你可以很好地专注于事情。
It’s weird.
这很奇怪。
You can really focus on a thing.
你可以真正专注于一件事。
It doesn’t really matter what that is.
那是什么并不重要。
I think that’s what people achieve with meditation.
我认为这就是人们通过冥想实现的目标。
You can focus on your breath, for example.
例如，您可以专注于呼吸。
It’s just normal brown noise.
这只是正常的棕色噪音。
3:07:24 It’s not like binaural.
这不像双耳。
No.
不。
Just normal brown noise.
只是正常的棕色噪音。
It’s like, “Shh.”
就像是“嘘”。
Yeah.
是的。
White noise, I think it’s the same.
白噪声，我认为是一样的。
3:07:30 It’s like big noise, white noise.
这就像大噪音，白噪音。
Brown noise, I think it’s like bassier.
棕色噪音，我认为它就像低音。
Yeah.
是的。
3:07:36 It’s more diffused.
它更加分散。
More dampened.
更受挫。
Dampened.
受潮了。
Yeah, I can see that.
是的，我看得出来。
No sharpness.
没有锐度。
Yeah, sharp brightness.
是的，锐利的亮度。
Yeah, brightness.
是的，亮度。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
3:07:43 I can see that.
我看得出来。
And you use a headphone, right?
而且你用的是耳机，对吧？
Yeah, headphones.
是的，耳机。
Yeah.
是的。
I actually walk around in life often with brown noise.
事实上，我在生活中经常伴随着棕色噪音。
Dude, that’s like psychopath shit, but it’s cool.
伙计，这就像精神病患者的狗屎，但很酷。
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊，是啊。
3:07:53 When I murder people, it helps.
当我杀人时，这会有所帮助。
It drowns out their screams.
它淹没了他们的尖叫声。
Jesus Christ.
耶稣基督。
I said too much.
我说太多了。
Man, I’m going to try brown noise.
伙计，我要尝试棕色噪音。
With the murder or for the coding?
是为了谋杀还是为了编码？
3:08:05 Yeah.
是的。
For the coding, yeah.
对于编码，是的。
Okay, good.
好的，很好。
3:08:07 Try it.
尝试一下。
Try it.
尝试一下。
But you have to with everything else, give it a real chance.
但你必须面对其他一切，给它一个真正的机会。
Yeah.
是的。
I also, like I said, do techno-y type stuff, electronic music on top of the brown noise.
就像我说的，我也做技术型的东西，在棕色噪音之上的电子音乐。
3:08:13 But then control the speed, because the faster it goes, the more anxiety.
但接下来要控制速度，因为速度越快，就越焦虑。
So, if I really need to get shit done, especially with programming, I’ll have a beat.
所以，如果我真的需要完成一些事情，尤其是编程方面，我会尽力而为。
And it’s great.
这很棒。
It’s cool.
这很酷。
I say it’s cool to play those little tricks with your mind to study yourself.
我说用你的头脑玩这些小把戏来研究自己是很酷的。
I usually don’t like to have people around because when people, even if they’re working, I don’t know, I like people too much.
我通常不喜欢有人在身边，因为当人们，即使他们在工作时，我也不知道，我太喜欢人们了。
They’re interesting.
他们很有趣。
Yeah, In coworking space, I would just start talking too much.
是的，在联合办公空间中，我会开始说太多话。
Yeah.
是的。
3:08:48 So, there’s a source of distraction.
所以，有一个干扰源。
Yeah, in the coworking space, we would do a money pot, like a mug.
是的，在联合办公空间，我们会做一个钱罐，就像一个杯子。
3:08:50 So, if you would work for 45 minutes and then if you would say a pair of words, you would get a fine, which is like $1.
所以，如果你工作了 45 分钟，然后说两句话，你就会被罚款，大约 1 美元。
So, you’d put $1 to say, “Hey, what’s up?” So, $3 you put in the mug.
所以，你会投入 1 美元来问：“嘿，怎么了？”所以，你在杯子里放了 3 美元。
And then 15 minutes free time, we can party whatever.
然后有 15 分钟的空闲时间，我们可以参加任何聚会。
And then 45 minutes again working and that worked.
然后又工作了 45 分钟，就成功了。
But you need to shut people up or they…
但你需要让人们闭嘴，否则他们……
I think there’s an intimacy in being silent together that maybe I’m uncomfortable with, but you need to make yourself vulnerable and actually do it with close friends to just sit there in silence for long periods of time and doing a thing.
我认为在一起保持沉默有一种亲密感，也许我对此感到不舒服，但你需要让自己变得脆弱，实际上是和亲密的朋友一起做，长时间安静地坐在那里做一件事。
Dude, I watched this video of this podcast.
伙计，我看了这个播客的视频。
3:09:36 It was like this Buddhism podcast with people meditating and they were interviewing each other or whatever like a podcast.
就像这个佛教播客，人们在冥想，他们互相采访或类似播客的东西。
And suddenly after a question, it’s like, “Yeah, yeah.” And they were just silent for three minutes and then they said, “That was amazing.
突然问完一个问题后，我就说：“是啊，是啊。”他们沉默了三分钟，然后说：“太棒了。
Yeah, that was amazing.” I was like, “Wow, pretty cool.”
是的，那真是太棒了。”我当时想，“哇，太酷了。”
Elon’s like that.
埃隆就是这样的。
3:09:58 And I really liked that.
我真的很喜欢这样。
You’ll ask a question, I don’t know, what’s a perfectly productive day for you?
你会问一个问题，我不知道，对你来说最高效的一天是哪一天？
I just asked.
我刚问。
And you just sit there for 30 seconds thinking.
然后你就坐在那里思考 30 秒。
Yeah.
是的。
3:10:12 He thinks.
他想。
Yeah.
是的。
That’s so cool.
太酷了。
3:10:16 I wish I could think more about …
我希望我能多考虑一下……
But I want to show you my heart.
但我想向你展示我的心。
I want to go straight from my heart to my mouth to saying the real thing.
我想直接从心里说出真实的话。
And the more I think, the more I start filtering myself and I want to just throw it out there immediately.
我想得越多，我就越开始过滤自己，我想立即把它扔掉。
I do that more with team.
我和团队一起做更多的事情。
3:10:34 I think he has a lot of practice in that.
我认为他在这方面有很多练习。
I do that as well.
我也这样做。
And in team setting, when you’re thinking, brainstorming and you allow yourself to just think in silence.
在团队环境中，当你思考、集思广益时，你允许自己安静地思考。
Because even in meetings, people want to talk.
因为即使在会议上，人们也想交谈。
It’s like no, you think before you speak.
就像不，你说话之前先想一想。
And it’s okay to be silent together.
一起沉默也没关系。
If you allow yourself the room to do that, you can actually come up with really good ideas.
如果你给自己留出空间去做这件事，你实际上可以想出非常好的想法。
Yeah.
是的。
So, okay, this perfect day, how much caffeine are you consuming in this day?
那么，好吧，这完美的一天，您这一天摄入了多少咖啡因？
Man, too much.
男人，太过分了。
3:11:03 Because normally two cups of coffee.
因为通常是两杯咖啡。
But on this perfect day, we go to four maybe.
但在这个完美的一天，我们也许会去四个。
So, we’re starting to hit the anxiety levels.
所以，我们开始达到焦虑水平。
So, four cups is a lot for you?
那么，四杯对你来说很多吗？
Well, I think my coffees are quite strong when I make them.
嗯，我觉得我煮的咖啡很浓。
3:11:15 It’s like 20 grams of coffee powder in the V60.
相当于 V60 中的 20 克咖啡粉。
So, my friends call them nuclear coffee because it’s quite heavy.
所以，我的朋友们称它们为核咖啡，因为它很重。
Super strong.
超级强。
It’s quite strong.
这是相当强大的。
3:11:25 But it’s nice to hit that anxiety level where you’re almost panic attack, but you’re not there yet.
但达到几乎要惊恐发作的焦虑水平是件好事，但你还没有达到那种程度。
But that’s like, man, it’s super locked in.
但这就像，伙计，它被超级锁定了。
Just like, it’s amazing.
就像，这太神奇了。
But I mean, there’s a space for that in my life.
但我的意思是，我的生活中有一个空间。
But I think it’s great for making new stuff.
但我认为这对于创造新东西来说非常有用。
It’s amazing.
太棒了。
Starting from scratch, creating a new thing.
从头开始，创造新事物。
Yes.
是的。
3:11:48 I think girlfriends should let their guys go away for two weeks.
我认为女朋友应该让她们的男朋友离开两周。
Every few, no, every year.
每隔几次，不，每年。
At least.
至少。
Maybe every quarter, I don’t know.
也许每个季度，我不知道。
And just sit and make some without, they’re amazing.
只要坐下来做一些没有的，它们就太棒了。
But no-
但不——
3:12:00 Make some shits without…
做一些狗屎而不…
They’re amazing, but no disturbances.
他们很棒，但没有干扰。
Just be alone, and then people can make something very amazing.
只要独处，人们就可以创造出非常惊人的东西。
Just wearing cowboy hats in the mountains like we showed before.
就像我们之前展示的那样，在山里戴着牛仔帽。
Exactly, we can do that.
确实，我们可以做到。
There’s a movie about that.
有一个关于这个的电影。
With the laptops.
与笔记本电脑。
They didn’t do much programming though.
不过他们并没有做太多编程。
Yeah, you can do a little bit of that.
是的，你可以做一点。
Okay.
好的。
And then a little bit of shipping.
然后还有一点点运输。
3:12:18 Can do both.
两者都可以。
It’s different, Broke Back Mountain.
这是不同的，断背山。
But they need to allow us to go.
但他们需要允许我们离开。
3:12:23 You need like a man cave, right?
你需要一个男人的洞穴，对吧？
Yeah, to ship.
是的，要发货。
Yeah, to ship.
是的，要发货。
Get shit done.
搞定吧。
3:12:27 Yeah.
是的。
It’s a balance.
这是一种平衡。
Okay, cool.
好吧，酷。
What about sleep, naps and all that?
睡眠、小睡等等呢？
You’re not sleeping much?
你睡得不多吗？
I don’t do naps in a day.
我一天不小睡。
3:12:34 I think power naps are good, but I’m never tired anymore in the day.
我认为小睡很好，但白天我再也不会感到疲倦。
Man, it’s also because of gym, I’m not tired.
哥们，也是因为健身，我不累。
I’m tired when I want to…
当我想要的时候，我已经累了……
When it’s night, I need to sleep.
到了晚上，我需要睡觉。
Yeah.
是的。
3:12:45 Me, I love naps.
我呢，喜欢小睡。
I sleep very well.
我睡得很好。
I love naps.
我喜欢小睡。
Yeah?
是的？
I don’t care.
我不在乎。
3:12:49 I don’t know.
我不知道。
I don’t know why.
我不知道为什么。
Brain shuts off, turns on.
大脑关闭，又开启。
I don’t know if it’s healthy or not.
我不知道这是否健康。
It just works.
它就是有效的。
Yeah.
是的。
I think with anything, mental, physical, you have to be a student of your own body and know what the limits are.
我认为无论是精神上还是身体上的任何事情，你都必须成为自己身体的学生，并知道自己的极限是什么。
3:12:55 You have to be skeptical taking advice from the internet in general, because a lot of the advice is just a good baseline for the general population.
一般来说，你必须对互联网上的建议持怀疑态度，因为很多建议只是针对普通大众的良好基线。
It’s not personalized, yeah.
这不是个性化的，是的。
But then you have to become a student of your own body, of your own self, of how you work.
但接下来你必须成为你自己的身体、你自己、你的工作方式的学生。
3:13:10 Yeah.
是的。
I’ve done a lot.
我已经做了很多。
For me, fasting was an interesting one because I used to eat a bunch of meals a day, especially when I was lifting heavy, because everybody says that you have to eat a lot, multiple meals a day, but I realized I can get much stronger, feel much better if I eat once or twice a day.
对我来说，禁食是一件很有趣的事情，因为我曾经每天吃很多顿饭，尤其是当我举重的时候，因为每个人都说你必须吃很多，一天多餐，但我意识到，如果我每天吃一两次，我可以变得更强壮，感觉更好。
Yeah, me too.
是的，我也是。
3:13:38 Yeah.
是的。
It’s crazy.
太疯狂了。
I never understood the small meal thing.
我从来不理解小食的事情。
3:13:39 Yeah, it didn’t work for me.
是的，这对我不起作用。
Let me just ask you, it’d be interesting if you can comment on some of the other products you’ve created.
让我问你，如果你能对你创建的其他一些产品发表评论，那就很有趣了。
3:13:42 We talked about NomadList, Interior AI, Photo AI, Therapist AI.
我们讨论了NomadList、室内人工智能、照片人工智能、治疗师人工智能。
What’s Remote OK?
什么是远程OK？
It’s a job board for remote jobs.
这是一个远程工作的工作委员会。
3:13:52 Because back then, 10 years ago, there was job boards, but it was not really specifically remote job, job boards.
因为那时候，10 年前，有工作委员会，但它并不是真正专门的远程工作、工作委员会。
So I made one.
所以我做了一个。
First on NomadList, I made Nomad Jobs, like a page.
首先在 NomadList 上，我制作了 Nomad Jobs，就像一个页面。
And a lot of companies started hiring and it paid for job posts.
许多公司开始招聘并支付职位招聘费用。
So I spin it off to Remote OK, and now it’s the number one or number two biggest remote job boards.
所以我把它分拆到 Remote OK，现在它是第一或第二大的远程工作委员会。
And it’s also fully automated.
而且它也是完全自动化的。
People just post a job and people apply.
人们只需发布一份工作，然后就可以申请。
It has profiles as well.
它也有配置文件。
It’s like LinkedIn for remote work.
它就像用于远程工作的 LinkedIn。
Just focus on remote only?
只专注于远程？
Yeah.
是的。
3:14:25 It’s essentially like a simple job board.
它本质上就像一个简单的工作板。
I discovered job boards are way more complicated than you think, but yeah, it’s a job board for remote jobs.
我发现工作委员会比你想象的要复杂得多，但是，是的，这是一个远程工作的工作委员会。
But the nice thing is you can charge a lot of money for job posts.
但好处是你可以为工作职位收取很多钱。
Man, it’s good money, B2B.
伙计，B2B 真是赚大钱了。
You start with 2.99, but at the peak, when the feds started printing money like 2021, I was making 140K a month with Remote OK with just job posts.
一开始的收入是 2.99，但在高峰期，当美联储像 2021 年那样开始印钞时，我通过 Remote OK 只靠职位发布每月就能赚 14 万美元。
And I started adding crazy upsells, like rainbow-colored job posts.
我开始添加疯狂的追加销售，比如彩虹色的工作职位。
You can add your background image.
您可以添加背景图片。
It’s just upsells, man.
这只是加售，伙计。
And you charge a thousand dollars for an upsell.
并且你会收取一千美元的追加销售费用。
It was crazy.
太疯狂了。
All these companies just upsell, upsell.
所有这些公司只是追加销售、追加销售。
Yeah, we want everything.
是的，我们想要一切。
Job posts would cost $3,000, $4,000.
职位发布费用为 3,000 美元、4,000 美元。
And I was like, “This is good business.” And then the feds stopped printing money and it all went down, and it went down to like 10K a month from 140.
我当时想，“这是一笔好生意。”然后联邦政府停止印钞，钞票数量全部下降，从每月 140 枚下降到大约 1 万枚。
Now it’s back, I think it’s 40.
现在又回来了，我想是40了。
It was good times.
那是美好的时光。
I got to ask you about, back to the digital nomad life, you wrote a blog post on the reset and in general, just giving away everything, living a minimalist life.
我想问你，回到数字游牧生活，你写了一篇关于重置的博客文章，总的来说，只是放弃一切，过着极简主义的生活。
Yeah.
是的。
What did it take to do that, to get rid of everything?
需要什么才能做到这一点，摆脱一切？
10 years ago was this trend in the blog.
10年前博客中就有这种趋势。
3:15:37 Back then, blogs were so popular, it was like a blogosphere and it was like the 100 Things Challenge.
那时，博客非常流行，就像一个博客圈，就像“100 件事挑战”。
What is that, the 100 Things Challenge?
100 件事挑战赛是什么？
I mean, it’s ridiculous, but you write down every object you have in your house and you count it.
我的意思是，这很荒谬，但是你写下你家里所有的物品并数一数。
3:15:44 You make a spreadsheet and you’re like, “Okay, I have 500 things.” You need to get it down to 100.
你制作了一个电子表格，然后你会说：“好吧，我有 500 件事。”你需要把它降到100。
Why?
为什么？
It was just the trend.
这只是趋势。
So I did it.
所以我就这么做了。
I started selling stuff, started throwing away stuff.
我开始卖东西，开始扔东西。
And I did MDMA and ecstasy 2012.
2012 年我吸食了摇头丸和摇头丸。
And after that trip, I felt so different and I felt like I had to start throwing shit away.
那次旅行之后，我感觉很不一样，我觉得我必须开始扔垃圾。
I swear.
我发誓。
Yeah.
是的。
And I started throwing shit away and I felt that it was almost like the drug sending me to a path of, you need to throw all your shit away.
我开始扔掉粪便，我觉得这几乎就像毒品让我走上了一条道路，你需要扔掉所有的粪便。
3:16:12 You need to go on a journey.
你需要去旅行。
You need to get out of here.
你需要离开这里。
And that’s what the MDMA did, I think.
我认为，这就是摇头丸所做的。
Yeah.
是的。
How hard is it to get down to 100 items?
减少到 100 件有多难？
Well, you need to sell your PC and stuff.
好吧，你需要卖掉你的电脑和其他东西。
3:16:29 You need to go on eBay, and then…
你需要去 eBay，然后……
Man, going eBay selling all your stuff is very interesting because you discover society.
伙计，去 eBay 卖掉你所有的东西是非常有趣的，因为你发现了社会。
You meet the craziest people.
你会遇到最疯狂的人。
You meet every range from rich to poor, everybody comes to your house to buy stuff.
你会遇到从富人到穷人的各种阶层，每个人都来你家买东西。
It’s so funny.
太有趣了。
It’s so interesting.
太有趣了。
I recommend everybody do this.
我建议大家都这样做。
Just to meet people that want your shit.
只是为了遇见那些想要你的东西的人。
Yeah.
是的。
3:16:48 I didn’t know.
我不知道。
I was living in Amsterdam and I didn’t know I have my own subculture or whatever, and I discovered the Dutch people as they are from eBay.
我住在阿姆斯特丹，我不知道我有自己的亚文化或其他什么，我发现了来自 eBay 的荷兰人。
So I sold everything.
所以我卖掉了所有东西。
What’s the weirdest thing you had to sell and you had to find a buyer for?
你必须出售并寻找买家的最奇怪的东西是什么？
3:16:59 Not the weirdest, but what’s memorable?
不是最奇怪的，但有什么值得纪念的？
So back then, I was making music and we would make music videos with a Canon 5D camera.
那时，我正在制作音乐，我们会使用佳能 5D 相机制作音乐视频。
3:17:05 Back then, everybody’s making films and music videos of that.
那时，每个人都在制作电影和音乐录影带。
And we bought it with my friends and stuff, and it was kind of like I had to sell this thing too, because it was very expensive, like 6K or something.
我们和我的朋友和其他人一起买了它，这有点像我也必须卖掉这个东西，因为它非常昂贵，比如 6K 之类的。
But it meant that selling this, meant that we wouldn’t make music videos anymore.
但这意味着出售这个，意味着我们将不再制作音乐视频。
I would leave Holland.
我会离开荷兰。
This stuff we were working on would end.
我们正在做的事情将会结束。
And I was saying, “This music video stuff, we’re not getting big, we’re not getting famous in this or successful.
我说，“在音乐视频方面，我们没有变大，我们没有因此出名或成功。
We need to stop doing this.” This music production also, it’s not really working.
我们需要停止这样做。”这个音乐制作也没有真正发挥作用。
And I felt very bad for my friends because we would work together on this and to sell this camera that we’d make stuff with and-
我为我的朋友们感到非常难过，因为我们会在这方面合作并出售我们用来制作东西的相机，然后-
It was a hard goodbye.
这是一次艰难的告别。
It was just a camera, but it felt like, “Sorry guys, it doesn’t work and I need to go.”
这只是一台相机，但感觉就像是，“对不起，伙计们，它不起作用，我需要走了。”
Who bought it?
谁买的？
3:17:56 Do you remember?
你是否记得？
It was some guy who couldn’t possibly understand the journey.
这是一个不可能理解旅程的人。
The motion of it.
它的运动。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
He just showed up here, “Here’s the money.
他刚刚出现在这里，“这是钱。
3:18:05 Thanks.”
谢谢。”
Yeah.
是的。
3:18:07 But it was cutting your life like, “This shit ends now and now we’re going to do new stuff.”
但它正在削减你的生活，就像“这狗屎现在结束了，现在我们要做新的事情了。”
I think it’s beautiful.
我觉得很漂亮。
3:18:12 I did that twice in my life.
我一生中做过两次这样的事。
I gave away everything, everything, everything, like down to just pants, underwear, backpack.
我放弃了一切，一切，一切，就像裤子、内衣、背包。
I think it’s important to do.
我认为这很重要。
It shows you what’s important.
它向您展示什么是重要的。
Yeah.
是的。
3:18:26 I think that’s what I learned from it.
我想这就是我从中学到的东西。
You learn that you can live with very little objects, very little stuff, but there’s a counter to it.
你知道你可以用很少的东西、很少的东西生活，但有一个相反的方法。
You lean more on the stuff, on the services.
你更多地依赖于东西、服务。
Right?
正确的？
For example, you don’t need a car, you use Uber, right?
例如，你不需要汽车，你使用 Uber，对吧？
Or you don’t need kitchen stuff because you go to restaurants when you’re traveling.
或者你不需要厨房用具，因为你旅行时会去餐馆。
So you lean more on other people’s services, but you spend money on that as well.
所以你更多地依赖其他人的服务，但你也在这上面花钱。
So that’s good.
所以这很好。
Yeah, but just letting go of material possessions, which gives a kind of freedom to how you move about the world.
是的，但只是放弃物质财富，这会给你在世界上的生活方式带来一种自由。
3:18:49 It gives you complete freedom to go into another city, to…
它让您完全自由地进入另一个城市，去……
With your backpack.
带着你的背包。
With a backpack.
带着背包。
3:18:58 There’s a freedom to it.
这是一种自由。
There’s something about material possessions and having a place and all that, that ties you down a little bit spiritually.
物质财富和拥有一个地方等等，都会在精神上束缚你。
It’s good to take a leap out into the world, especially when you’re younger, to like-
跳到外面的世界是件好事，尤其是当你年轻的时候，喜欢——
Man, I recommend if you’re 18, you get out of high school, do this, go travel and build some internet stuff, whatever.
伙计，我建议如果你 18 岁了，你高中毕业后，做这个，去旅行，建立一些互联网东西，等等。
3:19:12 Bring your laptop and it’s an amazing experience.
带上你的笔记本电脑，这将是一次奇妙的体验。
Five years ago, I’d still go to university, but now I’m thinking like, “No, maybe skip university.” Just go first, travel around a little bit, figure some stuff out.
五年前，我仍然会去上大学，但现在我想，“不，也许可以跳过大学。”先走一走，四处走走，弄清楚一些事情。
You can go back to university when you’re 25.
25岁就可以重返大学。
You can like, “Okay, now I learned to be successful in business.” You have money.
你可以说，“好吧，现在我学会了如何在商业上取得成功。”你有钱。
At least now, you can choose what you really want to study.
至少现在，你可以选择你真正想学的东西。
Because people at 18, they go study what’s probably good for the job market.
因为人们在 18 岁时，就会去研究什么可能对就业市场有利。
Right?
正确的？
So it probably makes more sense.
所以这可能更有意义。
If you want that, go travel, build some businesses and go back to university if you want.
如果你愿意，就去旅行，创办一些企业，如果你愿意的话，可以回到大学。
So one of the biggest uses of a university is the networking.
因此，大学最大的用途之一就是网络。
3:19:49 You gain friends, you meet people.
你结交朋友，结识新朋友。
It’s a forcing function to meet people.
这是与人见面的强迫功能。
But if you can meet people out into the world by travel-
但如果你能通过旅行结识外面世界的人——
Man, and you meet so many different cultures.
伙计，你遇到了很多不同的文化。
I mean, the problem for me is if I traveled at that young age, I’m attracted to people at the outskirts of the world.
我的意思是，对我来说问题是，如果我在那么年轻的时候旅行，我就会被世界郊区的人们所吸引。
3:20:02 For me-
对我来说-
Where?
哪里？
No, not geographically.
不，不是地理上的。
Oh, the subcultures.
哦，亚文化。
Yeah, the weirdos, the darkness.
是的，怪人，黑暗。
Yeah, me too.
是的，我也是。
But that might not be the best networking at 18 years old.
但这可能不是 18 岁时最好的社交方式。
No, but, man, if you’re smart about it, you can stay safe.
不，但是，伙计，如果你聪明的话，你就可以保持安全。
3:20:22 And I met so many weirdos from traveling.
我在旅行中遇到了很多奇怪的人。
That’s how travel works.
这就是旅行的运作方式。
If you really let loose, you meet the craziest people and it’s the most interesting people.
如果你真正放松，你会遇到最疯狂的人，也是最有趣的人。
It’s just I cannot recommend it enough.
只是我极力推荐它。
Well see, the thing is that when you’re 18, I feel like depending on your personality, you have to learn both how to be a weirdo and how to be normie.
好吧，问题是，当你 18 岁时，我觉得根据你的个性，你必须学习如何成为一个怪人，以及如何成为一个正常人。
3:20:39 You still have to learn how to fit into society.
你还是要学会如何融入社会。
For a person like me, for example, who’s always an outcast, there’s always a danger for going full outcast.
例如，对于像我这样一直被排斥的人来说，完全被排斥的危险总是存在的。
And that’s a harder life.
那是更艰难的生活。
If you go full artists and full darkness, it’s just a harder life.
如果你完全成为艺术家和完全黑暗，那生活就会更加艰难。
You can come back, you can come back to normie.
你可以回来，你可以回到常态。
That’s a skill.
这是一项技能。
3:21:09 I think you have to learn how to fit into polite society.
我认为你必须学会如何融入礼貌的社会。
But I was a very strange outcast as well.
但我也是一个非常奇怪的被遗弃者。
3:21:16 And I’m more adaptable to normie now.
我现在更能适应常态了。
You learned it.
你学会了。
3:21:21 Yeah.
是的。
After 30s, you’re like…
30岁以后，你就像……
3:21:23 Yeah.
是的。
But I mean, it’s a skill you have to learn.
但我的意思是，这是你必须学习的技能。
Yeah.
是的。
3:21:27 Man, I feel also that you start as an outcast, but the more you work on yourself, the less shit you have.
伙计，我也觉得你一开始就是一个被遗弃的人，但你越努力自己，你的狗屎就越少。
You start becoming more normie because you become more chill with yourself and more happy and it makes you uninteresting, right?
你开始变得更加正常，因为你对自己变得更加冷静和快乐，这让你变得无趣，对吧？
Yes, yes, yes.
是的，是的，是的。
The crazy people are always the most interesting.
疯狂的人总是最有趣的。
3:21:45 If you’ve solved your internal struggles and your therapy and stuff and you become…
如果你解决了你的内心挣扎和治疗之类的问题，你就会变得……
It’s not so interesting any more maybe.
也许不再那么有趣了。
You don’t have to be broken to be interesting, I guess is what I’m saying.
你不必被打破才有趣，我想这就是我所说的。
Yeah.
是的。
What kind of things were left when you minimalized?
当你最小化的时候还剩下什么？
So the backpack, Macbook, toothbrush, some clothes, underwear, socks.
所以背包，Macbook，牙刷，一些衣服，内衣，袜子。
3:22:03 You don’t need a lot of clothes in Asia because it’s hot.
在亚洲你不需要太多衣服，因为天气很热。
So you just wear swim pants, swim shorts, you walk around flip-flops.
所以你只穿泳裤、泳裤，穿着人字拖走来走去。
So very basic, T-shit.
非常基本，T-shit。
And I go to the laundromat and wash my stuff.
我去自助洗衣店洗我的东西。
And I think it was like 50 things or something.
我想大概有 50 件事之类的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, it’s nice.
是的，这很好。
3:22:27 As I mentioned to you, there’s the show alone.
正如我向你提到的，只有演出。
They really test you because you only get 10 items and you have to survive out in the wilderness, and an ax.
他们真的很考验你，因为你只得到 10 件物品，而且你必须在荒野中生存，还有一把斧子。
Everybody brings an ax.
每个人都带着斧子。
Some people also have a saw, but usually, Axe does the job.
有些人也有一把锯子，但通常是斧头来做这项工作。
You basically have to, in order to build a shelter, you have to cut down and cut the trees and make-
你基本上必须，为了建造一个避难所，你必须砍伐树木并制作-
Learned in Minecraft.
在《我的世界》中学习。
Everything I learned about life, I learned in Minecraft, bro.
我在《我的世界》中学到的关于生活的一切，兄弟。
3:22:55 Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
It’s nice to create those constraints for yourself, to understand what matters to you, and also, how to be in this world.
为自己创造这些约束是件好事，了解什么对你来说是重要的，以及如何生活在这个世界上。
And one of the ways to do that is just to live a minimalist life.
实现这一目标的方法之一就是过极简主义的生活。
But some people, I’ve met people that really enjoy material possessions and that brings them happiness.
但我遇到过一些人，他们真正享受物质财富，这给他们带来了快乐。
And that’s a beautiful thing.
这是一件美好的事情。
For me, it doesn’t, but people are different.
对我来说，事实并非如此，但人是不同的。
It gives me happiness for two weeks.
它给了我两周的快乐。
Yeah.
是的。
I’m very quickly adapting to a baseline hedonistic adaptation very fast.
我很快就适应了基线享乐主义适应。
Yeah.
是的。
But man, if you look at the studies, most people get a new car, six months, get a new house, six months.
但是伙计，如果你看一下研究，大多数人都会在六个月内买一辆新车，在六个月内买一所新房子。
3:23:31 You just feel the same.
你只是有同样的感觉。
You’re like, “Wow, should I buy all the stuff?” Studying hedonistic adaptation made me think a lot about minimalism.
你会想，“哇，我应该买所有的东西吗？”研究享乐主义适应让我对极简主义有了很多思考。
And so, you don’t even need to go through the whole journey of getting it.
因此，您甚至不需要经历获得它的整个过程。
3:23:46 Just focus on the thing that’s more permanent.
只专注于更持久的事情。
Yeah.
是的。
Like building shit.
就像建造垃圾一样。
Yeah.
是的。
3:23:56 People around you, people you love, nice food, nice experiences, meaningful work, exercise, those things make you happy, I think.
我认为，你周围的人、你爱的人、美味的食物、美好的经历、有意义的工作、锻炼，这些东西都会让你快乐。
Make me happy for sure.
一定让我开心。
You wrote a blog post, “Why I’m unreachable and maybe you should be too.” What’s your strategy in communicating with people?
你写了一篇博文，“为什么我无法联系到，也许你也应该如此。”你与人沟通的策略是什么？
Yeah.
是的。
3:24:14 So when I wrote that, I was getting so many DMs as you probably have a million times more.
所以当我写这篇文章时，我收到的私信数量可能比你收到的还要多一百万倍。
And people were getting angry that I wasn’t responding.
人们因为我没有回应而生气。
And I was like, “Okay, I’ll just close down these DMs completely.” Then people got angry that I closed my DMs down, that I’m not like, man of the people.
我当时想，“好吧，我会完全关闭这些私信。”然后人们很生气，因为我关闭了我的私信，因为我不是人民的好人。
You’ve changed, man.
你变了，伙计。
Yeah, you’ve changed, like this…
是的，你变了，就像这样……
3:24:32 And I’ll explain why.
我会解释原因。
I just don’t have the time in a day to answer every question.
我只是一天没有时间回答每个问题。
And also, people send you crazy shit, man, like stalkers and people write their whole life story for you, and then ask you for advice.
而且，人们会向你发送疯狂的狗屎，伙计，就像跟踪者一样，人们为你写下他们的整个人生故事，然后向你寻求建议。
Man, I have no idea.
伙计，我不知道。
I’m not a therapist.
我不是治疗师。
I don’t know.
我不知道。
I don’t know this stuff.
我不知道这个东西。
But also, beautiful stuff.
而且，美丽的东西。
No, absolutely sure.
不，绝对肯定。
Like life story.
就像人生故事一样。
3:24:55 I’ve posted a coffee forum if you wanted to have a coffee with me, and I’ve gotten an extremely large number of submissions.
如果你想和我一起喝咖啡，我已经发布了一个咖啡论坛，并且我收到了大量的提交。
And when I look at them, there’s just beautiful people in there, beautiful human beings and really powerful stories.
当我看着它们时，里面有美丽的人，美丽的人类和真正震撼人心的故事。
And it breaks my heart that I won’t get to meet those people.
我无法见到那些人，这让我心碎。
So there’s part of it is just like, there’s only so much bandwidth to truly see other humans and help them or understand them, or hear them, or see them.
所以其中一部分就像是，只有这么多的带宽来真正看到其他人并帮助他们或理解他们，或听到他们，或看到他们。
Yeah.
是的。
3:25:24 I have this problem that I try, I want to try help people and also like, “Oh, let’s make startups,” and whatever.
我遇到了这个问题，我想尝试帮助人们，并且也喜欢“哦，让我们创业吧”之类的。
And I’ve learned over the years that generally for me…
多年来我了解到，通常对我来说......
And it sounds maybe bad, but I helped my friend Andre, for example.
这听起来可能很糟糕，但我帮助了我的朋友安德烈，例如。
He came up to me in the coworking space.
他在联合办公空间向我走来。
That’s how I met him.
我就是这样认识他的。
And he said, “I want to learn to code.
他说：“我想学习编码。
I want to do startups.
我想做初创公司。
How do we do it?” I said, “Okay, let’s go, install Nginx.
我们该怎么做呢？我说：“好吧，我们开始安装 Nginx。
Let’s start coding.”
让我们开始编码吧。”
3:25:47 And he has this self energy that he actually, he doesn’t need to be pushed, he just goes and he just goes, and he asks questions and he doesn’t ask too many questions.
他有这种自我能量，实际上，他不需要被推动，他只是去，他只是去，他问问题，他不会问太多问题。
He just goes, goes and learns it.
他只是不断地去学习。
And now, he has a company and makes a lot of money, has his own startups.
现在，他拥有了一家公司，赚了很多钱，拥有自己的初创公司。
And the people that ask me for help, but then I gave help, and then they started debating it.
还有那些向我寻求帮助的人，但后来我提供了帮助，然后他们开始争论。
Do you have that?
你有那个吗？
People ask you for advice and they go against you to say, “No, you’re wrong because…” I’m like, “Okay, bro, I don’t want to debate.
人们向你寻求建议，然后他们反对你说，“不，你错了，因为……”我说，“好吧，兄弟，我不想辩论。
You asked me for advice, right?” And the people who need to push generally, it doesn’t happen.
你向我寻求建议，对吧？”而那些需要普遍推动的人，却没有发生。
You need to have this energy for yourself.
你需要为自己拥有这种能量。
Well, they’re searching.
好吧，他们正在寻找。
3:26:25 They’re searching.
他们正在寻找。
They’re trying to figure it out.
他们正在努力解决这个问题。
But oftentimes, their search, if they successfully find what they’re looking for, it’ll be within.
但通常情况下，他们的搜索，如果他们成功找到了他们要找的东西，那就在里面。
Sounds very like spiritual sounding, but it’s really figuring that shit out on your own.
听起来很像精神上的声音，但它实际上是你自己解决的。
But they’re reaching, they’re trying to ask the world around them like, “How do I live this life?
但他们正在努力，他们试图问周围的世界，“我该如何过这种生活？
How do I figure this out?” But ultimately, the answer is going to be from them working on themselves.
我该如何解决这个问题？但最终，答案将来自他们自己的努力。
And literally, it’s the stupid thing, but Googling and doing like searching-
从字面上看，这是一件愚蠢的事情，但是谷歌搜索和搜索一样——
Yeah.
是的。
3:26:54 So I think it’s procrastination.
所以我认为这是拖延症。
I think sending messages to people is a lot of procrastination.
我认为向人们发送消息是一种拖延。
How do you become successful podcasters?
如何成为成功的播客？
Bro, just start.
兄弟，开始吧。
Just go.
走吧。
Just go.
走吧。
And I would never ask you how to be a successful podcaster.
我永远不会问你如何成为一名成功的播客。
3:27:07 I would just start it, and then I would copy your methods.
我会开始它，然后我会复制你的方法。
I would say, “Ah, this guy has a black background.
我会说，“啊，这家伙有黑人背景。
We probably need this as well.”
我们可能也需要这个。”
Yeah, try it.
是的，尝试一下。
3:27:16 Yeah, try it.
是的，尝试一下。
And then you realize it’s not about the black background, it’s about something else.
然后你意识到这与黑色背景无关，而是与其他东西有关。
So you find your own voice, keep trying stuff.
所以你要找到自己的声音，不断尝试。
Exactly.
确切地。
Imitation is a difficult thing.
模仿是一件很难的事情。
3:27:23 A lot of people copy and they don’t move past it.
很多人都会模仿，但他们不会超越它。
Yeah.
是的。
You should understand their methods, and then move past it.
你应该了解他们的方法，然后超越它。
3:27:28 Find yourself, find your own voice, find your own-
找到你自己，找到你自己的声音，找到你自己的——
Yeah, you imitate, and then you put your own spin to it.
是的，你会模仿，然后加入你自己的风格。
3:27:34 And that’s like creative process.
这就像创作过程。
That’s literally the whole…
这实际上就是全部……
Everybody always builds on the previous work.
每个人总是以以前的工作为基础。
You shouldn’t get stuck.
你不应该被卡住。
24 hours in a day, eight hours of sleep.
一天24小时，睡眠8小时。
3:27:41 You break it down into a math equation.
你把它分解成一个数学方程。
90 minutes of showering, cleaning up, coffee, it just keeps whittling down to zero.
90分钟的淋浴、打扫卫生、喝咖啡，它就这样不断地减少到零。
Man, it’s not this specific, but I had to make an average or something.
伙计，这不是那么具体，但我必须得出一个平均值或其他东西。
Yeah.
是的。
3:27:55 Firefighting.
消防。
Oh, I like that.
哦，我喜欢这样。
One hours of groceries and errands.
一小时的杂货和差事。
I’ve tried breaking down minute by minute what I do in a day, especially when my life was simpler.
我尝试过一分钟一分钟地分解我一天所做的事情，尤其是当我的生活比较简单的时候。
It’s really refreshing to understand where you waste a lot of time and what you enjoy doing.
了解你在哪里浪费了很多时间以及你喜欢做什么，真的很令人耳目一新。
How many minutes it takes to be happy, doing the thing that makes you happy, and how many minutes it takes to be productive?
做让你快乐的事情需要多少分钟才能感到快乐，需要多少分钟才能富有成效？
And you realize, there’s a lot of hours in the day if you spend it right.
你会意识到，如果你合理利用的话，一天中有很多时间。
Yeah.
是的。
3:28:23 A lot of it is wasted.
其中很多都被浪费了。
Yeah.
是的。
For me, the biggest battle for the longest time is finding stretches of time where I can deeply focus into really deep work.
对我来说，最长的时间里最大的战斗是找到一段时间让我可以深度专注于真正深入的工作。
3:28:24 Just like zoom in and completely focused, cutting away all the distractions.
就像放大并完全专注一样，排除所有干扰。
Yeah, me too.
是的，我也是。
That’s the battle.
这就是战斗。
3:28:41 It’s unpleasant.
这很不愉快。
It’s extremely unpleasant.
这是非常不愉快的。
We need to fly to an island, make a man cave island where everybody can just code for a week and just get shit done, make new projects.
我们需要飞往一个岛屿，建造一个人洞岛，每个人都可以在那里编码一周，然后完成任务，制作新项目。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
But man, they called me psychopath for this because it says one hours of sex, hugs, love.
但是伙计，他们因此称我为精神病患者，因为它说的是一小时的性、拥抱、爱。
3:28:54 Man, I had to write something.
伙计，我必须写点东西。
They were like, “Oh, this guy’s psychopath.
他们就像，“哦，这家伙是个精神病患者。
He plans his sex in specific hour.” Bro, I don’t, but-
他在特定的时间计划他的性行为。”兄弟，我不知道，但是——
They have a counter for hugs.
他们有一个拥抱柜台。
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
3:29:08 Yeah.
是的。
Click, click, click.
点击，点击，点击。
It’s just a numerical representation of what life is.
它只是生命的数字表示。
Yeah.
是的。
It’s like one of those, when you draw out how many weeks you have in a life.
就像其中之一，当你画出你的一生有多少个星期时。
Oh dude, this is dark.
噢，伙计，这里太黑了。
3:29:21 Yeah, man.
是的，伙计。
Don’t want to look at that too much.
不想看太多。
Holy shit.
天啊。
Yeah, man.
是的，伙计。
3:29:24 How many times you see your parents?
你见过父母几次？
Jesus, man.
天哪，伙计。
It’s scary, man.
太可怕了，伙计。
That’s right.
这是正确的。
3:29:29 It might be only a handful more times.
可能只会再有几次。
Yeah, man.
是的，伙计。
You just look at the math of it.
你只要看看它的数学原理就可以了。
3:29:33 If you see them once a year or twice a year-
如果你每年见到他们一次或每年两次——
Yeah.
是的。
3:29:36 FaceTime today.
今天进行 FaceTime 通话。
Yeah.
是的。
3:29:38 I mean, that’s dark when you see somebody you like seeing, like a friend that’s on the outskirts of your friend group.
我的意思是，当你看到你喜欢见的人时，就像你朋友圈外围的朋友一样，那是黑暗的。
And then you realize, “Well, I haven’t really seen him for three years.” So how many more times do we have that we see each other?
然后你意识到，“好吧，我已经三年没有真正见过他了。”那么我们还有多少次见面呢？
Yeah.
是的。
Do you believe that friends just slowly disappear from your life?
你相信朋友会慢慢从你的生活中消失吗？
3:30:00 Your friend group evolves, right?
你的朋友圈在发展，对吗？
It does.
确实如此。
3:30:07 It does.
确实如此。
There’s a problem with Facebook.
Facebook 有问题。
3:30:08 You get all these old friends from school when you were 10 years old back when Facebook started.
当你 10 岁时 Facebook 刚成立时，你就认识了所有这些来自学校的老朋友。
You would add friend them, and then you’re like, “Why are we in touch again?
你会加他们为好友，然后你会想，“为什么我们又联系了？
Just keep the memories there.
只是把记忆留在那里。
It’s a different life now.”
现在是不同的生活了。”
Yeah.
是的。
3:30:21 I don’t know.
我不知道。
That might be a guy thing or I don’t know.
这可能是男人的事，或者我不知道。
There’s certain friends I have that we don’t interact often, but we’re still friends.
我有一些朋友，我们不经常互动，但我们仍然是朋友。
Every time I see him…
每次我看到他…
I think it’s because we have a foundation of many shared experiences and many memories.
我认为这是因为我们有许多共同经历和记忆的基础。
I guess it’s like nothing has changed.
我想就好像什么都没有改变一样。
Almost like we’ve been talking every day, even if we haven’t talked for a year.
几乎就像我们每天都在说话，即使我们已经一年没有说话了。
So that’s…
所以那是……
Yeah, this deep issues.
是的，这个深奥的问题。
Yeah.
是的。
3:30:47 So I don’t have to be interacting with them for them to be in a friend group.
因此，我不必与他们互动即可让他们加入朋友小组。
And then there’s some people I interact with a lot.
还有一些我经常互动的人。
It depends, but there’s just this network of good human beings that I have a real love for them and I can always count on them.
这取决于情况，但正是这个由好人组成的网络让我真正爱他们，并且我总是可以依靠他们。
If any of them called me in the middle of the night, I’ll get rid of a body, I’m there.
如果他们中的任何一个在半夜打电话给我，我就会处理掉尸体，我就在那儿。
I like how that’s a definition of friendship, but it’s true.
我喜欢这是对友谊的定义，但这是事实。
It’s true.
这是真的。
True friend.
真正的朋友。
You become more and more famous recently.
最近你越来越出名了。
3:31:20 How’s that affect you?
这对你有什么影响？
It’s not recently, because it’s this gradual thing, right?
不是最近，因为这是渐进的事情，对吧？
3:31:24 It keeps going.
它继续下去。
And I also don’t know why it keeps going.
而且我也不知道为什么它会继续下去。
Does that put pressure on you to…
这会给你带来压力吗……
3:31:32 Because you’re pretty open on Twitter and you’re just basically building shit in the open and just not really caring if it’s too technical, if it’s any of this, just being out there.
因为你在 Twitter 上非常开放，你基本上只是在公开地构建垃圾，并且并不真正关心它是否太技术性，如果是这样的话，只是在那里。
Does it put pressure on you as you become more popular to be a little bit more collected and…
当你变得更受欢迎时，这是否会给你带来压力，让你变得更加冷静……
Man, I think the opposite, right?
伙计，我认为恰恰相反，对吗？
3:31:53 Because the people I follow are interesting, because they say whatever they think and they shape or whatever.
因为我关注的人很有趣，因为他们想说什么、塑造什么就说什么。
It’s so boring that people start tweeting only about one topic.
这太无聊了，以至于人们开始只就一个话题发推文。
I don’t know anything about their personal life.
我对他们的私生活一无所知。
I want to know about their personal life.
我想了解他们的个人生活。
You do podcasts, you ask about life stuff of personality.
你做播客，询问有关个性的生活问题。
That’s the most interesting part of business or sports.
这是商业或体育中最有趣的部分。
What’s behind the sport, the athlete right behind the entrepreneur?
体育运动背后是什么？企业家背后的运动员？
That’s interesting stuff.
这很有趣。
To be human.
成为人类。
Yeah.
是的。
3:32:19 Like I shared a tweet, it went too far.
就像我分享一条推文一样，它太过分了。
We were cleaning the toilet because the toilet was clogged, but it’s just real stuff.
我们正在打扫厕所，因为厕所堵塞了，但这只是真实的东西。
Because Jensen Huang, the Nvidia guy, he says he started cleaning toilets.
因为英伟达的黄仁勋说他开始打扫厕所。
That was cool.
太酷了。
3:32:32 You tweeted something about the Denny’s thing.
你在推特上发了一些关于丹尼的事。
I forget.
我忘记了。
Yeah.
是的。
3:32:36 It was recent.
这是最近的事。
Nvidia was started in a Denny diner table.
Nvidia 是在丹尼的餐桌上创立的。
And you made it somehow profound.
你让它变得意义深远。
Yeah.
是的。
3:32:43 This one, this one.
这个，这个。
Nvidia, a $3 trillion company was started in a Denny’s, an American diner.
英伟达是一家价值 3 万亿美元的公司，是在一家美国小餐馆 Denny's 中创立的。
3:32:45 People need a third space to work on their laptops to build the next billion or trillion dollar company.
人们需要第三个空间来使用笔记本电脑工作，以打造下一个十亿或万亿美元的公司。
What’s the first and second space?
第一个和第二个空间是什么？
The home office.
家庭办公室。
3:32:56 Yeah.
是的。
And then the in-between, the island.
然后是中间的岛屿。
I guess, yeah.
我想是的。
The island.
岛屿。
Yeah.
是的。
3:33:01 You need a space to congregate, man.
你需要一个聚集的空间，伙计。
And I found history on this.
我找到了这方面的历史。
So 400 years ago in the coffee houses of Europe, the scientific revolution, the enlightenment happened.
因此，400 年前，在欧洲的咖啡馆里，科学革命、启蒙运动发生了。
Because they would go to coffee houses, they would sit there, they would drink coffee and they would work.
因为他们会去咖啡馆，他们会坐在那里，他们会喝咖啡，他们会工作。
They would work, they would write, and they would do debates, and they would organize marine routes.
他们会工作，他们会写作，他们会进行辩论，他们会组织海上路线。
Right?
正确的？
They would do all the stuff in coffee houses in Europe, in France, in Austria, in UK, in Holland.
他们会在欧洲、法国、奥地利、英国、荷兰的咖啡馆里做所有的事情。
So we were always going to cafes to work and to have serendipitous conversations with other people and start businesses and stuff.
所以我们总是去咖啡馆工作，与其他人进行偶然的交谈，然后开始做生意之类的。
And when you asked me to come on here and we flew to America, and the first thing I realized was that I’ve been to America before, but we were in this cafe and there’s a lot of laptops.
当你让我来这里，我们飞往美国时，我意识到的第一件事是我以前去过美国，但我们在这家咖啡馆里，那里有很多笔记本电脑。
Everybody’s working on something and I took this photo.
每个人都在做某事，我拍了这张照片。
And then when you’re in Europe, large parts of Europe now, you cannot use a laptop anymore.
然后当你在欧洲，现在欧洲大部分地区，你就不能再使用笔记本电脑了。
No laptop, which I understand.
没有笔记本电脑，我明白。
But that is to you, a fundamental place to create shit, is in that natural, organic co-working space of a coffee shop.
但对你来说，创造垃圾的基本场所是咖啡店自然、有机的联合办公空间。
Well, for a lot of people.
嗯，对于很多人来说。
3:34:10 A lot of people have very small homes and co-working spaces are boring.
很多人的房子都很小，联合办公空间也很无聊。
They’re private, they’re not serendipitous, they’re boring.
它们是私人的，它们不是偶然的，它们很无聊。
Cafes are amazing because random people can come in and ask you, “What are you working on?” And not just laptops.
咖啡馆很棒，因为随机的人可以进来问你：“你在做什么？”不仅仅是笔记本电脑。
People are also having conversations like they did 400 years ago, debates or whatever.
人们也像 400 年前那样进行对话、辩论或其他什么。
Things are happening.
事情正在发生。
And man, I understand the aesthetics of it.
伙计，我理解它的美学。
It’s like, “Start up bro.
就像，“开始吧，兄弟。
Shipping is a bullshit startup.”
航运业是一个狗屁的初创公司。”
3:34:40 But there’s something more there.
但还有更多的东西。
There’s people actually making stuff, making new companies that the society benefits from.
有人实际上在制造东西，创建让社会受益的新公司。
We’re benefiting from Nvidia, I think.
我认为我们正在从 Nvidia 中受益。
The US GDP for sure is benefiting from Nvidia.
美国的 GDP 肯定受益于英伟达。
European GDP could benefit if we build more companies.
如果我们建立更多的公司，欧洲的 GDP 可能会受益。
And I feel in Europe, there’s this vibe and this…
我觉得在欧洲，有这种氛围，而且……
You have to connect things, but not allowing laptops in cafes is part of the vibe.
你必须把东西连接起来，但不允许在咖啡馆里使用笔记本电脑是这种氛围的一部分。
It’s like, “Yeah, we’re not really here to work.
就像是，“是的，我们并不是真的来这里工作。
We’re here to enjoy life.” I agree with this.
我们来这里是为了享受生活。”我同意这一点。
Anthony Bourdain, this tweet was quoted with Anthony Bourdain photo of him with cigarettes and a coffee in France, and he said, “This is what cafes are for.” I agree.
安东尼·波登 (Anthony Bourdain)，这条推文与安东尼·波登 (Anthony Bourdain) 在法国抽烟和喝咖啡的照片一起被引用，他说：“这就是咖啡馆的用途。”我同意。
But there is some element of entrepreneurship.
但其中也有一些创业精神。
3:35:15 You have to allow people to dream big and work their ass off towards that dream, and then feel each other’s energy as they interact with.
你必须让人们有远大的梦想，并为这个梦想而努力，然后在互动时感受到彼此的能量。
That’s one of the things I liked in Silicon Valley when I was working there, is the cafes.
当我在硅谷工作时，我喜欢的事情之一就是咖啡馆。
There’s a bunch of dreamers that you can make fun of them for like, everybody thinks they’re going to build a trillion-dollar company, but-
有一群梦想家，你可以取笑他们，比如，每个人都认为他们会建立一家价值数万亿美元的公司，但是——
Yeah.
是的。
3:35:38 And it’s off, so not everybody wins.
而且它已经关闭了，所以并不是每个人都会赢。
99% of the people will be bullshit [inaudible 03:35:41].
99% 的人都是胡说八道 [听不清 03:35:41]。
But they’re working their ass off.
但他们正在拼命工作。
Yeah.
是的。
3:35:42 And they’re doing something.
他们正在做某事。
And you need to pass this startup bro like, “Oh, it’s started one level.” No, it’s not.
你需要通过这个创业兄弟，就像，“哦，它已经开始了一个级别。”不，不是。
It’s people making cool shit.
这是人们在做很酷的事情。
And this will benefit you because this will create jobs for your country and your region.
这将使您受益，因为这将为您的国家和地区创造就业机会。
And I think in Europe, that’s a big problem.
我认为在欧洲，这是一个大问题。
We have a very anti- entrepreneurial mindset.
我们有一种非常反创业的心态。
Dream big and build shit.
梦想远大，建设美好。
3:36:03 This is really inspiring, this pin tweet of yours.
你的这条 pin 推文真的很鼓舞人心。
All the projects that you’ve tried and the ones that succeeded.
您尝试过的所有项目以及成功的项目。
There’s very few.
数量很少。
Mute life.
沉默的生活。
This was for Twitter to mute, to share the mute list.
这是为了 Twitter 静音，共享静音列表。
Yeah.
是的。
3:36:20 Fire calculator, no more Google, maker rank, how much is my side project worth, climate finder, ideasai, airlinelist-
火灾计算器，不再有谷歌，制造商排名，我的副业项目值多少钱，气候查找器，ideasai，航空公司列表-
Airlinelist still runs, but it doesn’t make money.
Airlinelist 仍在运营，但不赚钱。
3:36:30 Airlinelist compares the safety of airlines.
Airlinelist 比较航空公司的安全性。
Because I was nervous to fly, so I was like, “Let’s collect all the data on the crashes for all the airplanes.”
因为我对飞行感到紧张，所以我想，“让我们收集所有飞机坠毁的所有数据。”
Bali sea cable.
巴厘岛海缆。
3:36:40 Nice.
不错。
That’s awesome.
太棒了。
Make village, nomad gear, 3D and virtual reality dev, play my inbox, like you mentioned.
制作村庄、游牧装备、3D 和虚拟现实开发，玩我的收件箱，就像你提到的那样。
There’s a lot of stuff.
有很多东西。
Yeah, man.
是的，伙计。
I’m trying to find some embarrassing tweets of yours.
我试图找到你的一些令人尴尬的推文。
You can go to the highlights tab.
您可以转到突出显示选项卡。
3:36:56 It has all the good shit.
它拥有所有的好东西。
There you go.
就这样吧。
This was Dubai.
这是迪拜。
POV, building an AI startup.
POV，建立人工智能初创公司。
3:37:02 Wow.
哇。
You’re a real influencer.
你是一个真正有影响力的人。
And if people copy this photo now and they change the screenshots, it becomes like a meme, of course.
如果人们现在复制这张照片并更改屏幕截图，它当然会变得像一个迷因。
This is good.
这很好。
That’s how Dubai looks.
这就是迪拜的样子。
3:37:16 It’s insane.
这太疯狂了。
That’s beautiful architecture.
那是美丽的建筑。
3:37:19 It’s crazy, the story behind the cities.
城市背后的故事太疯狂了。
Yeah, the story behind, for sure.
是的，背后的故事，当然。
3:37:22 So this is about the European economy, where…
这是关于欧洲经济的，其中……
European economy landscape is ran by dinosaurs.
欧洲经济格局由恐龙主导。
3:37:27 And today, I studied it so I can produce you with my evidence.
今天，我研究了它，以便我可以向您提供我的证据。
80% of top EU companies were founded before 1950.
80% 的欧盟顶级公司成立于 1950 年之前。
Only 36% of top US companies were founded before 1950.
只有 36% 的美国顶级公司成立于 1950 年之前。
Yeah.
是的。
3:37:42 So the median founding of companies in US is something like 1960, and the median…
所以美国公司成立的中位数大约是 1960 年，中位数......
The top companies, right?
顶级公司，对吗？
And the median in Europe is 1900 or something.
欧洲的中位数是 1900 左右。
So it’s here, 1913 and 1963.
1913 年和 1963 年就在这里。
So there’s a 50-year difference.
所以有50年的差异。
It’s a good representation of the very thing you were talking about, the difference in the cultures, entrepreneurial spirit of the peoples.
它很好地体现了你所谈论的事情，即文化差异和各国人民的创业精神。
But Europe used to be entrepreneurial.
但欧洲曾经是创业型国家。
3:38:06 There was companies founded in 1800, 1850, 1900.
有的公司成立于 1800 年、1850 年、1900 年。
It flipped around 1950 where America took the lead.
1950 年左右，情况发生了逆转，美国处于领先地位。
And I guess my point is, I hope that Europe gets back to…
我想我的观点是，我希望欧洲回到……
Because I’m European, I hope that Europe gets back to being an entrepreneurial culture where they build big companies again.
因为我是欧洲人，我希望欧洲恢复创业文化，再次建立大公司。
Because right now, all the old dinosaur companies control the economies.
因为现在，所有老牌恐龙公司都控制着经济。
They’re lobbying with the government.
他们正在与政府游说。
Europe is also, they’re infiltrated with the government where they create so much regulation.
欧洲也是如此，他们渗透到政府那里，制定了如此多的监管。
I think it’s called regulatory capture, where it’s very hard for a newcomer to enter an industry because there’s too much regulation.
我认为这就是所谓的监管捕获，新人很难进入一个行业，因为监管太多。
So actually, regulation is very good for big companies because they can follow it.
所以实际上，监管对大公司来说非常有好处，因为他们可以遵循它。
I can’t follow it, right?
我跟不上，对吗？
If I want to start an AI startup in Europe now, I cannot because there’s an AI regulation that makes it very complicated for me.
如果我现在想在欧洲创办一家人工智能初创公司，我不能，因为人工智能法规对我来说非常复杂。
I probably need to get notaries involved.
我可能需要让公证人参与进来。
I need to get certificates, licenses.
我需要获得证书、许可证。
Whereas in America, I can just open my laptop.
而在美国，我只需打开笔记本电脑即可。
I can start an AI startup right now mostly.
我现在基本上可以开始人工智能创业了。
What do you think about EAC, Effective Accelerationist movement?
您如何看待 EAC（有效加速主义运动）？
Man, you had Beff Jezos on.
伙计，贝夫·杰佐斯 (Beff Jezos) 就在你身边。
3:39:09 I love Beff Jezos and he’s amazing.
我喜欢 Beff Jezos，他太棒了。
And if EAC is very needed to similarly create a more positive outlook on the future, because people have been very pessimistic about society, about the future of society, climate change, all this stuff.
如果 EAC 非常需要类似地对未来创造更积极的前景，因为人们对社会、社会的未来、气候变化以及所有这些东西都非常悲观。
EAC is a positive outlook on the future.
EAC对未来持乐观态度。
Technology can make us…
技术可以使我们……
We spend more energy.
我们花费更多的精力。
We should find ways to of course, get clean energy, but we need to spend more energy to make cooler stuff and go into space and build more technology that can improve society.
当然，我们应该找到获得清洁能源的方法，但我们需要花费更多的精力来制造更酷的东西，进入太空并开发更多可以改善社会的技术。
And we shouldn’t shy away from technology.
我们不应该回避技术。
Technology can be the answer for many things.
技术可以解决很多问题。
Yeah, build more.
是的，建造更多。
3:39:53 Don’t spend so much time on fear-mongering and cautiousness and all this kind of stuff.
不要花太多时间在散布恐惧和谨慎之类的事情上。
Some was okay, some was good, but most of the time should be spent on building and creating and doing so unapologetically.
有些还可以，有些很好，但大部分时间应该花在构建和创造上，并且毫无歉意地这样做。
It’s a refreshing reminder of what made United States great, is all the builders.
这令人耳目一新，提醒我们是什么让美国变得伟大，是所有建设者的力量。
Like you said, the entrepreneurs.
就像你说的，企业家。
We can’t forget that in all the discussions of how things could go wrong with technology and all this kind of stuff.
我们不能忘记，在所有关于技术和所有此类东西如何出错的讨论中。
Yeah.
是的。
3:40:20 Look at China.
看看中国。
China is now at the stage of America.
中国现在正处于美国的阶段。
What?
什么？
Like 1900 or something.
比如1900年什么的。
They’re building rapidly insane.
他们正在迅速疯狂地建设。
And obviously, China has massive problems, but that comes with the whole thing.
显然，中国存在巨大的问题，但这是伴随整个事情而来的。
America is beginning also with massive problems.
美国也开始面临巨大的问题。
Right?
对吗？
But I think it’s very dangerous for a country or a region like Europe to…
但我认为对于像欧洲这样的国家或地区来说这是非常危险的……
You get to this point where you’re complacent, you’re comfortable, and then you can either go this or you can go this way.
你到了这个地步，你会感到自满、舒服，然后你要么走这条路，要么走这条路。
You’re from here, you go like this, and then you can go this or this.
你从这里来，你就这样走，然后你可以走这个或这个。
I think you should go this way and…
我认为你应该走这条路……
Go up.
上去吧。
Yeah, go up.
是啊，上去吧。
3:40:56 And I think the problem is the mind culture.
我认为问题在于思想文化。
So EUAC, I made EUAC, which is the European version.
所以EUAC，我做了EUAC，就是欧洲版本。
I get it.
我明白了。
I made hoodies and stuff.
我做了连帽衫之类的东西。
3:41:06 So a lot of people wear this, make Europe great again hat.
所以很多人都戴着这顶让欧洲再次伟大的帽子。
I made it red first, but it became too like Trump.
我先把它变成红色，但它变得太像特朗普了。
So now, it’s more like European blue, make Europe great again.
所以现在，它更像欧洲蓝，让欧洲再次伟大。
All right.
好吧。
3:41:19 Okay.
好的。
So you had an incredible life.
所以你过着难以置信的生活。
Very successful, built a lot of cool stuff.
非常成功，构建了很多很酷的东西。
So what advice would you give to young people about how to do the same?
那么对于如何做同样的事情，您会给年轻人什么建议呢？
Man, I would listen to nobody.
伙计，我不会听任何人的。
3:41:32 Just do what you think is good and follow your heart.
做你认为好的事情，跟随你的心。
Right?
对吗？
Everybody peer presses you into doing stuff you don’t want to do.
每个同龄人都会迫使你做你不想做的事情。
And they tell you like parents, or family, or society and tell you.
他们会像父母、家庭或社会一样告诉你。
But try your own thing because it might work out.
但尝试一下你自己的事情，因为它可能会成功。
You can steer the ship.
你可以驾驶这艘船。
It probably doesn’t work out immediately.
可能不会立即见效。
You probably go into very bad times like I did as well, relatively, right?
你可能也像我一样经历过非常糟糕的时期，相对而言，对吧？
But in the end, if you’re smart about it, you can make things work and you can create your own little life of things as you did, as I did.
但最终，如果你足够聪明，你就能让事情顺利进行，你就能像我一样创造自己的小生活。
And I think that should be more promoted.
我认为应该进一步促进这一点。
Do your own thing.
做你自己的事。
There’s space in economy and in society for, do your own thing.
经济和社会都有空间让你做自己的事。
It’s like little villages, everybody would sell.
就像小村庄一样，每个人都会出售。
I would sell bread.
我会卖面包。
You would sell meat.
你会卖肉。
Everybody can do their own little thing.
每个人都可以做自己的小事。
You don’t need to be a normie, as you say.
正如你所说，你不需要成为一个普通人。
You can be what you really want to be.
你可以成为你真正想成为的人。
And go all out doing that thing.
并且全力以赴去做那件事。
Yeah, you got to go all out.
是的，你必须全力以赴。
3:42:28 Because if you half ass it, you cannot succeed.
因为如果你半途而废，你就不可能成功。
You need to go lean into the outcast stuff.
你需要深入了解那些被遗弃的东西。
Lean into the being different and just doing whatever it is that you want to do.
追求与众不同，做任何你想做的事。
Right?
对吗？
You got a whole ass it.
你有一个完整的屁股。
Yeah.
是的。
3:42:44 Whole ass it.
整个屁股。
Yeah.
是的。
This was an incredible conversation.
这是一次令人难以置信的谈话。
3:42:46 It was an honor to finally meet you.
很荣幸终于见到你。
It was an honor to be here, Lex.
很荣幸来到这里，莱克斯。
To talk to you and keep doing your thing.
和你说话并继续做你的事情。
3:42:50 Keep inspiring me and the world with all the cool stuff you’re building.
用你正在构建的所有很酷的东西继续激励我和世界。
Thank you, Man.
谢谢你，曼。
Thanks for listening to this conversation with Pieter Levels.
感谢您收听与 Pieter Levels 的对话。
3:42:59 To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description.
为了支持这个播客，请在说明中查看我们的赞助商。
And now, let me leave you with some words from Drew Houston, Dropbox co-founder.
现在，请允许我向您介绍 Dropbox 联合创始人德鲁·休斯顿 (Drew Houston) 的一些话。
By the way, I love Dropbox.
顺便说一句，我喜欢 Dropbox。
Anyway, Drew said, “Don’t worry about failure.
不管怎样，德鲁说，“不要担心失败。
You only have to be right once.” Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.
你只需要做对一次。”感谢您的聆听，并希望下次再见。
本集资源与出处
- 视频在 YouTube 收看
- 音频官方 MP3 直链来自 lexfridman.com 官方播客 RSS
- 官网Lex Fridman 官网本集页面
- 文稿官方 Transcript（lexfridman.com）
- 文稿HappyScribe 版文稿
