Unlearn Negative Thoughts & Behaviors Patterns | Dr. Alok Kanojia
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Everyone's focused on changing behavior.
每个人都专注于改变行为。
Everyone's focused on increasing willpower to overcome this tendency.
每个人都致力于增强意志力来克服这种倾向。
And it's like, why not just change the tendency?
就像，为什么不改变这种趋势呢？
That sounds so simple, but that's literally what we do in psychotherapy every day when we come in and someone has a narcissistic personality disorder.
这听起来很简单，但这确实是我们每天在心理治疗中遇到患有自恋型人格障碍的人时所做的事情。
This is personality.
这就是个性。
This is who they are.
这就是他们。
And we can psychotherapize them to be someone else, for their natural thoughts to change, for the way that they see the world to change, for their behaviors to change on its own.
我们可以对他们进行心理治疗，让他们成为另一个人，改变他们的自然思想，改变他们看待世界的方式，改变他们的行为。
Willpower is necessary when you are trying to not be narcissistic.
当你试图不自恋时，意志力是必要的。
It is not necessary when you are no longer narcissistic.
当你不再自恋时就没有必要了。
So we've done it in psychotherapy.
所以我们在心理治疗中做到了这一点。
We know that if your self-esteem changes, if your sense of being changes, treatment-refractory depression will change.
我们知道，如果你的自尊改变，如果你的存在感改变，难治性抑郁症就会改变。
Trauma, PTSD will change.
创伤、创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）将会改变。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到胡伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Dr. Alok Kanojia, also known as Dr. K.
今天我的嘉宾是 Alok Kanojia 博士，也称为 K 博士。
Dr. K is a psychiatrist and online mental health educator.
K 博士是一位精神病学家和在线心理健康教育者。
He has a very unique background, having trained and earned his medical degree in the United States, but also having studied as a monk for seven years.
他有着非常独特的背景，在美国接受培训并获得医学学位，同时也曾出家七年。
Today, we discuss powerful tools for increasing your self-understanding and mental health, and for rewiring your nervous system, specifically how you can unlearn unhealthy thought patterns and behaviors and replace them with ones that truly serve you and those around you.
今天，我们讨论增强自我理解和心理健康以及重新连接神经系统的强大工具，特别是如何消除不健康的思维模式和行为，并用真正为您和周围人服务的思维模式和行为取而代之。
Much of today's discussion centers around differences between Eastern and Western concepts of things like the ego and what makes up our self-concept.
今天的大部分讨论都围绕着东西方概念之间的差异，例如自我以及我们的自我概念的组成部分。
That portion of the conversation will no doubt have you rethinking why you do what you do in virtually everything, and he provides a roadmap for clearly defining your best goals and for increasing things like your energy and drive, not through hacks, but by tapping into deep intrinsic motivation.
毫无疑问，这部分对话会让你重新思考为什么你在几乎所有事情上都会做你所做的事情，他提供了一个路线图，用于明确定义你的最佳目标，并增加你的能量和动力等东西，不是通过黑客，而是通过挖掘深层的内在动机。
In fact, throughout today's episode, Dr. K explains specific practices that you can use to help rewire your nervous system, resolve traumas, and come to a much clearer understanding of how best to apply your efforts in work, school, and relationships.
事实上，在今天的整集中，K 博士解释了一些具体的做法，您可以使用这些做法来帮助重新连接您的神经系统、解决创伤，并更清楚地了解如何最好地在工作、学校和人际关系中运用您的努力。
We also discuss social media, dating and relationships, addiction, and pornography.
我们还讨论社交媒体、约会和人际关系、成瘾和色情内容。
So there are a lot of topics covered.
所以涉及的话题很多。
And I have to say, this is a conversation unlike any other that I've had on or off the podcast.
我不得不说，这次对话不同于我在播客内外进行的任何其他对话。
Dr. K offers a completely new perspective on how to resolve common struggles that we all face.
K 博士为如何解决我们所有人面临的共同斗争提供了全新的视角。
And in doing so, he offers a lot of practical tools.
在这样做的过程中，他提供了很多实用的工具。
So this should be a very valuable conversation for anyone wishing to better understand themselves at the theoretical and psychological level, but also who wishes to implement specific tools to improve some or all aspects of their life.
因此，对于那些希望在理论和心理层面更好地了解自己，同时也希望使用特定工具来改善生活的某些或所有方面的人来说，这应该是一次非常有价值的对话。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.
为了与这个主题保持一致，今天的节目确实有赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Alok Kanojia.
现在我与 Alok Kanojia 博士进行讨论。
Dr. K, welcome.
K博士，欢迎。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Andrew Huberman, thank you for having me.
安德鲁·休伯曼，谢谢你邀请我。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So interested in you and the knowledge you hold.
对您和您所拥有的知识非常感兴趣。
Today, we're going to talk about a number of things.
今天，我们要讨论很多事情。
Ayurveda and East-West medicine, motivation, and dopamine, but I want to start with the internet.
阿育吠陀和东西方医学、动机和多巴胺，但我想从互联网开始。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You had an interesting upbringing, so very different than mine, not just because of our age difference, but you grew up on the internet.
你的成长经历很有趣，与我的成长非常不同，不仅仅是因为我们的年龄差异，而且你是在互联网上长大的。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so you really have an empathy for people on the internet, on social media.
所以你真的对互联网上、社交媒体上的人们有同理心。
Now everyone's on the internet.
现在每个人都在互联网上。
What was it that drew you to screens and that interface with such a degree of magnetism?
是什么吸引您使用具有如此吸引力的屏幕和界面？
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
I was a gifted kid growing up, and I think that one of the things that we don't really appreciate is how school moves at the pace of the slowest kid.
我是一个成长过程中有天赋的孩子，我认为我们真正不欣赏的一件事是学校如何以最慢的孩子的节奏前进。
So school was incredibly boring for me.
所以学校对我来说非常无聊。
And then I was also young, so I was a year ahead.
而且我还年轻，所以我领先了一年。
And so I was early on when I was a five-year-old in first grade and I was competing against seven-year-olds on the playground or in gym class.
因此，当我五岁上一年级时，我很早就在操场上或体育课上与七岁的孩子竞争。
I sucked at sports.
我不擅长体育运动。
So the one thing that I really got addicted to was this idea of a computer game where when you beat level one, level two is there.
所以我真正着迷的一件事是电脑游戏的想法，当你通关第一关时，第二关就在那里。
And then if you beat level two, level three is there.
然后，如果你击败了第二级，就会出现第三级。
If you fail at level three, you get to try level three again.
如果你在第三级失败了，你可以再次尝试第三级。
So it was the only activity that was cognitively to my pacing.
所以这是唯一在认知上符合我节奏的活动。
And so that really drew me in.
这真的吸引了我。
And I didn't realize that until years later.
直到多年后我才意识到这一点。
My parents were big fans of putting us into school young, and if you can skip grades, that's great, because life is a race, and the faster you finish, the better things are.
我的父母非常喜欢让我们从小就上学，如果你能跳级，那就太好了，因为生活就是一场比赛，你跑得越快，事情就越好。
But I didn't realize how developmentally challenging it is to be a five-year-old or a six-year-old in school with seven-year-olds or eight-year-olds.
但我没有意识到，作为一个五岁或六岁的孩子和七岁或八岁的孩子一起在学校里，是多么具有发展挑战性。
So I think that's what originally drew me in.
所以我认为这就是最初吸引我的原因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you don't mind me asking, so you were first-generation immigrant-
如果你不介意我问的话，那么你是第一代移民-
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
parents from India?
父母来自印度？
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I grew up in the South Bay in Palo Alto, so I'm familiar with intense academic environments.
我在帕洛阿尔托的南湾长大，所以我熟悉紧张的学术环境。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Sure, yeah.
当然，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Increasingly so in the last 10, 20 years.
在过去的10、20年里，这种情况越来越明显。
But even when I was there, it was intense.
但即使我在那里，情况也很激烈。
Did you feel that as pressure?
你觉得这有压力吗？
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
My earliest memories are of my grandmother telling me I'm going to make a great doctor one day.
我最早的记忆是祖母告诉我有一天我会成为一名伟大的医生。
And when I was 15 years old, people would ask me, I'd go to a party with my parents and their friends, and people would ask me, "What do you want to be when you grow up?" And so I was like, "I'm going to be a doctor." And everyone's like, "Wow, impressive." So my 15-year-old brain was looking at this amazing idea of what a doctor was.
当我15岁的时候，人们会问我，我会和我的父母和他们的朋友一起去参加一个聚会，人们会问我，“你长大后想做什么？”所以我想，“我要成为一名医生。”每个人都会说：“哇，令人印象深刻。”所以我 15 岁的大脑正在研究这个关于医生是什么的奇妙想法。
And both my parents are doctors.
我的父母都是医生。
My dad was an amazing doctor.
我的父亲是一位了不起的医生。
I suppose my mom is, too, but my dad was one of the seminal researchers in graft versus host disease.
我想我妈妈也是，但我爸爸是移植物抗宿主病领域的开创性研究人员之一。
It's how he landed his job at MD Anderson.
这就是他在 MD 安德森找到工作的方式。
So he came from India and was an oncologist.
他来自印度，是一名肿瘤学家。
And so I also remember back then, I think there wasn't even a HIPAA law.
所以我还记得当时，我认为甚至没有 HIPAA 法。
So he would have patients over to our house and stuff like that.
所以他会让病人到我们家做类似的事情。
He would throw a Thanksgiving party every year where he would invite all of his patients, all cancer survivors, and things like that.
他每年都会举办感恩节聚会，邀请所有的病人、所有的癌症幸存者等等。
And so my dad was really like a mythical figure, incredibly charismatic.
所以我的父亲真的就像一个神话人物，非常有魅力。
And so I was like, "Oh, yeah, I'm going to be that." And so it became a huge part of my ego, and then it turns out that ego is not a great way to motivate-- Well, it can be a great way to motivate yourself.
所以我想，“哦，是的，我会成为那样的。”所以它成为我自我的一个重要组成部分，然后事实证明自我并不是一个很好的激励方式——嗯，它可以是一个很好的激励自己的方式。
But then I ran into trouble when I hit college because I had never learned how to study.
但当我上大学时，我遇到了麻烦，因为我从未学会如何学习。
So either I absorbed everything and did well on the test, so I went straight from A's to F's, and then got addicted to video games, failed out of college.
所以要么我吸收了一切并在考试中取得了好成绩，所以我从A直接变成了F，然后沉迷于电子游戏，大学失败了。
But your original question was-
但你原来的问题是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure
当然可以
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
...
...
was I into computers and why, and that probably has something to do with it.
我对计算机感兴趣吗？为什么，这可能与此有关。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, it sounds like you were so into computers you eventually went over the cliff of computers with this addiction.
嗯，听起来你对电脑太着迷了，最终因为这种瘾而跌入了电脑的悬崖。
But I want to talk about the addiction, but I think this is a perfect frame, and maybe we'll jump back and forth as we move forward.
但我想谈谈成瘾，但我认为这是一个完美的框架，也许我们会在前进的过程中来回跳跃。
This is a perfect frame for what I have heard and wonder about a lot, which is I'm Gen X.
这是我所听到和好奇的一个完美框架，即我是 X 一代。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're a millennial.
你是千禧一代。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm told that the generations right behind Gen X perhaps had more love and encouragement to feel their feelings, notions of what trauma and addiction were, but maybe that there wasn't this universally high standards set for all of them.
我听说，X 世代之后的几代人可能有更多的爱和鼓励来感受他们的感受、关于创伤和成瘾的概念，但也许并没有为所有人设定普遍的高标准。
That's the narrative that you see in the news right now.
这就是你现在在新闻中看到的叙述。
Oh, this coddled generation, et cetera.
哦，这个被溺爱的一代，等等。
You had high standards set for you.
你为自己设定了很高的标准。
When you look out on your peers and you look out on the internet for millennials and younger, do you think that we can make a general statement about, oh, yeah, all this appreciation and understanding about what addiction and trauma and feelings are, that just was foreign to my generation, frankly, that it helped or hurt to have this awareness of self and what one needs and all of that?
当你看看你的同龄人，你在互联网上寻找千禧一代和更年轻的人时，你认为我们可以做出一个笼统的声明，哦，是的，所有这些关于成瘾、创伤和感受的欣赏和理解，对我们这一代人来说是陌生的，坦率地说，拥有这种自我意识以及一个人的需要是什么以及所有这一切是有帮助还是有伤害？
Do you think it helped or it hurt development?
您认为这对发展有帮助还是有损害？
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Well, so Andrew, I'm delighted to be speaking to a scientist because I think it helped and hurt, right?
嗯，安德鲁，我很高兴能与一位科学家交谈，因为我认为这既有帮助也有伤害，对吗？
So this is, as you know, things are multifactorial.
所以，正如你所知，事情是多因素的。
It's rarely one thing or another thing.
它很少是一件事或另一件事。
So I think a lot of people picked up ground with awareness of feelings.
所以我认为很多人都意识到了自己的感受。
As a psychiatrist, I work with people who were unaware of the family dynamics going on in their life, in their household, unaware of their emotions, growing up with things like avoidant attachment and having difficulty forming connections.
作为一名精神科医生，我与一些人一起工作，他们不知道自己的生活、家庭中正在发生的家庭动态，不了解自己的情绪，在回避型依恋等因素的影响下长大，难以建立联系。
So I think it is always good to be more aware.
所以我认为多加注意总是好的。
I think actually awareness is probably the single factor that correlates the most with success and happiness.
我认为实际上意识可能是与成功和幸福最相关的单一因素。
The challenge, the really subtle thing is that talking about emotions isn't the same as actually being aware of them.
挑战，真正微妙的事情是，谈论情绪并不等于真正意识到它们。
So I think what's started to happen is a lot of this dialogue around trauma, a lot of this dialogue around feelings, has actually been hijacked in very subtle ways by other parts of our mind, other parts like, for example, our ego.
所以我认为开始发生的是很多围绕创伤的对话，很多围绕感情的对话，实际上已经被我们思想的其他部分以非常微妙的方式劫持了，其他部分，例如我们的自我。
And so it's kind of like this therapy speak has like-- And this happens.
所以这有点像这种疗法的说法——而这种情况发生了。
So you can look at any population, and if you have someone who's sociopathic, or if you have someone who's histrionic or narcissistic, and everyone is talking feelings, they will do that too, but in a sociopathic way.
所以你可以看看任何人群，如果你有一个反社会的人，或者如果你有一个表演或自恋的人，并且每个人都在谈论感受，他们也会这样做，但以反社会的方式。
Feelings have now started to be used as a form of manipulation, right?
感情现在已经开始被用作一种操纵形式，对吗？
So people will use, like I see this all the time, speaking of the internet in its modern incarnation.
所以人们会使用，就像我一直看到的那样，谈论现代版的互联网。
We all talk about boundaries, but people have started to use boundaries as a form of control for other human beings.
我们都在谈论界限，但人们已经开始使用界限作为对其他人的控制形式。
My boundary is that you don't text anyone after 8:00 PM.
我的界限是晚上 8:00 之后不要给任何人发短信。
My boundary is that every time I call you, you need to answer the phone.
我的界限是，每次我给你打电话，你都需要接电话。
So it's really bizarre how the basic psychological stuff can hijack.
所以基本的心理因素如何劫持真的很奇怪。
Our psychological patterns can hijack all this mental health speak.
我们的心理模式可以劫持所有这些心理健康言论。
Another really good example of this is, so I remember I was seeing an assault victim in the emergency room at Mass General Hospital many years ago.
另一个很好的例子是，所以我记得很多年前我在麻省总医院的急诊室里看到了一名袭击受害者。
And so the MIT chief of campus security was there.
麻省理工学院校园安全主管也在场。
And so I was talking to them a little bit about, because there were other students with the student who had been assaulted, and they were kind of talking to me about safety, and I remember something that the MIT chief told me that I've never forgotten.
所以我和他们谈了一些，因为还有其他学生和被袭击的学生在一起，他们在和我谈论安全问题，我记得麻省理工学院院长告诉我的一些事情我永远不会忘记。
We were talking about safety, and he's like, "My job is not to make people feel safe.
我们正在谈论安全，他说：“我的工作不是让人们感到安全。
My job is to make people safe." And there's actually a big difference.
我的工作是确保人们的安全。”实际上有很大的区别。
And so something interesting has happened.
于是有趣的事情发生了。
We have all become more narcissistic because that's what the internet does to us.
我们都变得更加自恋，因为这就是互联网对我们所做的。
And so now if I am hurt, that is no longer my responsibility.
所以现在如果我受伤了，那不再是我的责任了。
That is because you did something wrong.
那是因为你做错了什么。
Does that make sense?
这有道理吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Fundamentally, if I feel hurt, that is oftentimes tied to you doing something wrong.
从根本上来说，如果我感到受伤，通常是因为你做错了什么。
So there's this tendency towards victimization, where you'll see even people who are playing the victim card, which doesn't mean that we shouldn't be believing victims.
因此存在这种受害倾向，你甚至会看到那些打受害者牌的人，这并不意味着我们不应该相信受害者。
I think that's exactly what happens is we started to realize that we're not taking victims seriously, but then all the chameleons in our society were looking at this pattern, and they were realizing, okay, the fastest way for me to get ahead is to claim to be a victim.
我认为这正是发生的事情，我们开始意识到我们没有认真对待受害者，但随后我们社会中所有的变色龙都在关注这种模式，他们意识到，好吧，让我取得成功的最快方法就是声称自己是受害者。
So there are all kinds of weird permutations that are happening right now with this sort of emphasis on feeling.
因此，随着这种对感觉的强调，现在正在发生各种奇怪的排列。
One more evidence-based example of this is we're seeing the prevalence of mood disorders, anxiety disorders, addictions, body dysmorphia.
另一个基于证据的例子是，我们看到情绪障碍、焦虑症、成瘾、身体畸形的普遍存在。
Basically, everything is getting worse.
基本上，一切都在变得更糟。
And so one weird thing that's started to happen is as we've talked more about feelings- There is something called a transdiagnostic factor, which we can get into.
因此，随着我们更多地谈论感受，开始发生一件奇怪的事情——有一种叫做跨诊断因素的东西，我们可以研究它。
I don't know if you're familiar with these or not.
不知道这些你是否熟悉。
But if you look at all of the mental illnesses, there are certain attributes that are a risk factor for multiple mental illnesses.
但如果你看看所有的精神疾病，就会发现某些属性是多种精神疾病的危险因素。
So a good example of transdiagnostic factors are perfectionism and rumination.
因此，完美主义和沉思就是跨诊断因素的一个很好的例子。
So rumination doesn't make you depressed, doesn't necessarily make you anxious, but if you have a high index of rumination, you are more likely to have a major depressive disorder, you're more likely to have an anxiety disorder.
因此，沉思并不会让你抑郁，也不一定会让你焦虑，但如果你的沉思指数很高，你就更有可能患有重度抑郁症，你更有可能患有焦虑症。
Does that make sense?
这有道理吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
If you are perfectionistic, you are more likely to be depressed, you are more likely to be anxious.
如果你是完美主义者，你就更有可能感到沮丧，你更有可能感到焦虑。
So there's one interesting transdiagnostic factor which has gotten way worse, which is something called distress tolerance.
因此，有一个有趣的跨诊断因素已经变得更糟，这就是所谓的痛苦耐受性。
So human beings' capacity to sit with things and tolerate things that they do not find comfortable is starting to tank.
因此，人类忍受事物和容忍他们不舒服的事物的能力开始下降。
And as that starts to tank, we're seeing just an explosion of mental illness.
随着这种情况开始恶化，我们看到精神疾病激增。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Glucose is a key player in how our body functions, not just in the long term, but in every moment of our lives.
葡萄糖在我们身体的运作中发挥着关键作用，不仅从长远来看，而且在我们生命中的每时每刻都如此。
That's because it is the major fuel for our cells, especially our brain cells.
那是因为它是我们细胞，尤其是脑细胞的主要燃料。
Glucose directly impacts our brain function, mood, and energy levels, and it may even affect our levels of tenacity and willpower.
葡萄糖直接影响我们的大脑功能、情绪和能量水平，甚至可能影响我们的坚韧和意志力水平。
This is why I use the continuous glucose monitor from Lingo.
这就是我使用 Lingo 连续血糖监测仪的原因。
I absolutely love it, and I'm thrilled to have them as a sponsor of the podcast.
我非常喜欢它，我很高兴他们成为播客的赞助商。
Lingo helps me track my glucose in real time to see how the foods I eat and the actions I take impact my glucose.
Lingo 帮助我实时跟踪我的血糖，以了解我吃的食物和我采取的行动如何影响我的血糖。
When glucose in your body spikes or crashes, your cognitive and physical performance do too.
当您体内的葡萄糖激增或崩溃时，您的认知和身体表现也会随之增加。
In fact, large glucose peaks and valleys lead to brain fog, fatigue, irritability, and hunger.
事实上，大的葡萄糖峰值和谷值会导致脑雾、疲劳、烦躁和饥饿。
What you eat, of course, plays a major role in your glucose.
当然，你吃的东西对你的血糖起着重要作用。
Some foods cause sharp spikes and big crashes, and others do not.
有些食物会导致急剧的峰值和严重的崩溃，而另一些则不会。
But not everyone is the same in terms of how they respond to particular foods.
但并不是每个人对特定食物的反应都是一样的。
Seeing your glucose in real time helps you build eating and other habits that support metabolic health, mental clarity, and sustained energy.
实时查看您的血糖有助于您养成饮食和其他习惯，从而支持代谢健康、思维清晰和持续精力充沛。
If you'd like to try Lingo, Lingo is offering Huberman Podcast listeners in the US 10% off a four-week Lingo plan.
如果您想尝试 Lingo，Lingo 将为美国的 Huberman 播客听众提供为期 4 周的 Lingo 计划 10% 的折扣。
Terms and conditions apply.
条款和条件适用。
Visit hellolingo.com/huberman for more information.
请访问 hellolingo.com/huberman 了解更多信息。
The Lingo glucose system is for users 18 and older, not on insulin.
Lingo 葡萄糖系统适用于 18 岁及以上的用户，不适用于胰岛素使用者。
It is not intended for the diagnosis of diseases, including diabetes.
它不适用于诊断疾病，包括糖尿病。
Individual responses may vary.
个人反应可能有所不同。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Joovv.
今天的节目也是Joovv给我们带来的。
Joovv makes medical-grade red light therapy devices.
Joovv 生产医疗级红光治疗设备。
Now, if there's one thing that I have consistently emphasized on this podcast is the incredible impact that light can have on our biology and our health.
现在，如果我在这个播客中一直强调一件事，那就是光对我们的生物学和健康产生的令人难以置信的影响。
Now, in addition to sunlight, which I've talked about a lot on this podcast, red light, near-infrared, and infrared light have been specifically shown to have positive effects on improving numerous aspects of cellular and organ health.
现在，除了我在这个播客中多次谈论的阳光之外，红光、近红外光和红外光已被具体证明对改善细胞和器官健康的许多方面具有积极作用。
These include faster muscle recovery, improved skin health, wound healing, improvements in acne, reduced pain and inflammation, improved mitochondrial function, and even improvements in vision.
这些包括更快的肌肉恢复、改善皮肤健康、伤口愈合、改善痤疮、减少疼痛和炎症、改善线粒体功能，甚至改善视力。
Nowadays, there are a lot of red light devices out there, but what sets Joovv lights apart and why they're my preferred red light therapy device is that they use clinically proven wavelengths, meaning they use the specific wavelengths of red light, near-infrared, and infrared light in combination to trigger the optimal cellular adaptations.
如今，市面上有很多红光设备，但 Joovv 灯的与众不同之处以及它们成为我首选红光治疗设备的原因在于它们使用经过临床验证的波长，这意味着它们结合使用特定波长的红光、近红外光和红外光来触发最佳的细胞适应。
Personally, I use the Joovv whole body panel about three to four times a week, usually for about 10 to 20 minutes per session, and I use the Joovv handheld light both at home and when I travel.
就我个人而言，我每周使用 Joovv 全身面板大约三到四次，通常每次大约 10 到 20 分钟，并且我在家和旅行时都使用 Joovv 手持灯。
If you would like to try Joovv, they're offering up to $400 off select products for listeners of this podcast.
如果您想尝试 Joovv，他们将为该播客的听众提供精选产品高达 400 美元的折扣。
To learn more, visit Joovv, spelled J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman.
要了解更多信息，请访问 Joovv，拼写为 J-O-O-V-V，.com/huberman。
Again, that's J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman.
再说一次，这是 J-O-O-V-V，.com/huberman。
The moment you said that we're seeing a reduction in distress tolerance, I heard in my head voices on the internet saying, "Oh, so we're just supposed to push our feelings aside?
当你说我们的痛苦承受能力正在下降时，我听到网上的脑海里有声音说：“哦，所以我们应该把我们的感受放在一边？
We're just supposed to accept everything that happens to us?" And of course, I don't actually believe that, but I can empathize a bit with that notion, right?
我们就应该接受发生在我们身上的一切吗？”当然，我实际上并不相信这一点，但我可以有点同情这个想法，对吧？
These things are always on a continuum.
这些事情始终是连续的。
It's a push-pull, right?
这是推拉，对吧？
I was going to raise the same thing around the standards that were set for you.
我本来打算围绕为你们设定的标准提出同样的事情。
Some people who grow up with very high standards set for them by parents, teachers, or coaches might internalize that as, "Oh, that must mean I'm very capable." In fact, in one of my favorite books, "The Last Lecture" by Randy Pausch, he was a computer scientist at Carnegie Mellon.
有些人在父母、老师或教练为他们设定的非常高的标准下长大，可能会内化这一点，“哦，这一定意味着我很有能力。”事实上，在我最喜欢的书之一，兰迪·鲍什（Randy Pausch）的《最后一讲》中，他是卡内基梅隆大学的计算机科学家。
He eventually died, and he gave this last lecture, which is an incredible lecture.
他最终去世了，他做了最后一次演讲，这是一次令人难以置信的演讲。
And he said the moment that your parents, coaches, and teachers stop pushing you is the moment you should worry because they've given up on you.
他说，当你的父母、教练和老师不再催促你的那一刻，你就应该担心，因为他们已经放弃了你。
If you're pushed, people believe in you that there's a chance you might actually accomplish something.
如果你受到推动，人们就会相信你，相信你有机会真正完成某件事。
They believe in you.
他们相信你。
But you could also internalize it as overwhelm.
但你也可以将其内化为压倒性的。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so I think this notion of distress tolerance, like what are the standards for distress tolerance, for performance, for being a "functional member of society" while also "honoring one's feelings" about feeling one's feelings.
所以我认为这种痛苦容忍的概念，就像痛苦容忍、表现、成为“社会功能成员”的标准是什么，同时也“尊重自己的感情”关于感受自己的感受。
There's no roadmap, I believe, to how to navigate that.
我相信，没有路线图来指导如何应对这一问题。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
What you said, there is no roadmap.
正如你所说，没有路线图。
That happens to be true, and it happens to be wrong.
这恰好是正确的，也恰好是错误的。
So I know that's confusing, so let me explain.
所以我知道这很令人困惑，所以让我解释一下。
So here's the first thing to understand.
所以这是首先要理解的事情。
The way that we collect information, this is why I love being a clinician.
我们收集信息的方式，这就是我喜欢成为一名临床医生的原因。
So you talked about "The Last Lecture." So this person was saying if people don't push you, that means that they don't care about you, they're not invested in you.
所以你谈到了“最后一课”。所以这个人说如果人们不推动你，那就意味着他们不关心你，他们没有对你投资。
The moment that you give up on someone is the moment that you stop pushing them, right?
当你放弃某人的那一刻，就是你不再逼迫他们的那一刻，对吗？
Makes perfect sense.
很有道理。
And then there are also people who've been pushed to the point where they crack under pressure.
还有一些人在压力下被逼到崩溃的地步。
That's actually way more common.
这实际上更常见。
And so generally speaking, pressure, just like any other part of biology, if I exert pressure on some joint, on some part of soft tissue, will develop a callus.
一般来说，压力就像生物学的任何其他部分一样，如果我对某个关节、软组织的某个部分施加压力，就会形成愈伤组织。
It'll become tough So this is where the reason there's no roadmap is because people aren't the same.
这会变得很困难所以这就是没有路线图的原因是因为人们是不一样的。
Right?
正确的？
So we all have unique genetics, we all have unique experiences, we all have a unique internal dialogue.
所以我们都有独特的基因，我们都有独特的经历，我们都有独特的内部对话。
And so the whole point of personality, and we can define personality by the technical terms, which is it is the way that you interpret information, the way you perceive the world, your internal reactions, and the behaviors that you engage in.
因此，人格的全部要点，我们可以用专业术语来定义人格，即你解释信息的方式，你感知世界的方式，你的内部反应，以及你从事的行为。
So you can take literally two different human beings in the exact same situation.
所以你可以在完全相同的情况下看待两个不同的人。
I've worked with a couple of survivors of genocidal conflicts, and the really interesting thing about that is not everybody gets PTSD, which is really weird, right?
我曾与几位种族灭绝冲突的幸存者一起工作过，真正有趣的是并不是每个人都会患上创伤后应激障碍（PTSD），这真的很奇怪，对吧？
If you think about it, this is a genocidal conflict.
如果你仔细想想，这就是一场种族灭绝冲突。
So we have tons of people who all experience the same thing, but their reactions to them are really different.
所以我们有很多人都经历过同样的事情，但他们对这些事情的反应却截然不同。
That's what's fun about being a clinician.
这就是作为一名临床医生的乐趣所在。
What I try to focus on and what I learned, I looked for a roadmap and what I found is that there's not a roadmap.
我试图关注的重点和我学到的东西，我寻找路线图，但我发现没有路线图。
There are thousands of roadmaps.
有数千个路线图。
And those roadmaps come down to, and this is, I think, a huge problem in the information-based world we live in.
我认为，这些路线图归结为我们生活的信息世界中的一个巨大问题。
So everyone has problems, right?
所以每个人都有问题，对吗？
And they're looking for solutions, which is great.
他们正在寻找解决方案，这很棒。
The biggest mistake that I see people make, especially high performers, is a problem of misdiagnosis.
我看到人们，尤其是高绩效者所犯的最大错误是误诊问题。
So a really good example of this, I had a patient come into my office, worked in finance, was at a very successful firm, came in and was like: "I have really bad anxiety.
一个很好的例子，我有一个病人来到我的办公室，他在一家非常成功的公司从事金融工作，进来后说：“我真的有很严重的焦虑。
It's really starting.
真的要开始了
I can't eat.
我不能吃东西。
I can't sleep.
我睡不着。
My wife is really worried about me." So he's like: "I've got really bad anxiety." So we start talking about it, and he's like: "I'm afraid I'm going to get fired." And we work together for about 12 months, and then he realizes this environment is not where he's happy.
我妻子真的很担心我。”所以他说：“我真的很焦虑。”所以我们开始谈论这件事，他说：“我担心我会被解雇。”我们一起工作了大约 12 个月，然后他意识到这个环境并不能让他感到高兴。
And the reason he's going to get fired is because he doesn't fit in, and he decides to quit.
他被解雇的原因是因为他不适应，他决定辞职。
So what's really interesting is if we'd made his anxiety go away, he would have perpetuated in an unhealthy system.
所以真正有趣的是，如果我们让他的焦虑消失，他就会在不健康的系统中永久存在。
And this is the thing that I think we forget when we're talking about our emotions.
我认为，当我们谈论自己的情绪时，我们会忘记这一点。
Andrew, which part of the brain does anxiety come from?
安德鲁，焦虑来自大脑的哪一部分？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a circuit-wide phenomenon.
这是一种全电路现象。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Sure.
当然。
How is it taught?
它是如何教授的？
If you had to teach someone who's taking an undergraduate neuroscience class, and maybe you wouldn't teach it this way, but if you had to localize it to somewhere, where would you localize it to?
如果你必须教一个正在上本科生神经科学课程的人，也许你不会以这种方式教它，但如果你必须将其本地化到某个地方，你会把它本地化到哪里？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
To one structure?
到一个结构？
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah, one-
是的，一个——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Everyone would say amygdala.
每个人都会说杏仁核。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
I know.
我知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I teach neuroanatomy to medical students, so.
我向医学生教授神经解剖学，所以。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or I did until very recently.
或者直到最近我才这么做。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
So I'm totally with the-
所以我完全同意-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Limbic system
边缘系统
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
...
...
limbic system as a whole, right?
边缘系统作为一个整体，对吗？
But the amygdala.
但是杏仁核。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
And the really interesting thing is crocodiles have amygdalas.
真正有趣的是鳄鱼有杏仁核。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Right?
对吗？
So we sometimes forget that these negative emotions are actually really important for us.
所以我们有时会忘记这些负面情绪对我们来说实际上非常重要。
They're really healthy for us.
它们对我们来说真的很健康。
One other really interesting example of this is, I work with a lot of gamers on the internet, so sometimes they'll try to engage in mating behaviors and they'll creep people out.
另一个非常有趣的例子是，我在互联网上与很多游戏玩家一起工作，所以有时他们会尝试进行交配行为，这会让人们感到害怕。
And one of the really interesting things that I realized is embarrassment is the best way to not creep someone out.
我意识到真正有趣的事情之一是尴尬是不让别人感到害怕的最好方法。
So if I violate one of your boundaries, and then I express embarrassment, that signals to you that I realize I did something wrong.
因此，如果我违反了你的界限，然后我表达了尴尬，那就向你发出信号，表明我意识到我做错了什么。
So if I violate one of your boundaries and then I express embarrassment, that's a really important empathic signal.
因此，如果我违反了你的界限，然后我表达了尴尬，这是一个非常重要的共情信号。
And now we have all of this content on the internet telling people to be relentlessly confident.
现在，我们在互联网上拥有所有这些内容，告诉人们要保持坚定的自信。
And when they become relentlessly confident, they no longer express embarrassment.
当他们变得无比自信时，他们就不再表现出尴尬。
Embarrassment is a really important signal to send.
尴尬是一个非常重要的信号。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In the example you gave, it's very clear that somebody violated somebody's boundary.
在你给出的例子中，很明显有人侵犯了某人的边界。
They felt embarrassment.
他们感到尴尬。
Showing that embarrassment shows that they have some sort of empathic attunement or awareness-
表现出尴尬表明他们有某种共情协调或意识——
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that makes them perhaps a little less creepy and a little bit safer.
这也许让它们不那么令人毛骨悚然，也更安全。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As opposed to if they just kept-
相反，如果他们只是保留-
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Exactly
正是如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
going forward, right?
继续前进，对吗？
However, if it was a bit vague, let's say that they did something, a flirtation, and it wasn't really clear what it was, and the other person said, "Hey, that doesn't feel good to me," and then they acted very embarrassed, then the person who said it didn't feel good to them would quite understandably think, "Oh, it must have been really bad." Right?
然而，如果有点含糊，假设他们做了某件事，调情，而且不太清楚那是什么，另一个人说，“嘿，这对我来说感觉不太好，”然后他们表现得很尴尬，那么说这对他们感觉不好的人就会很容易理解地想，“哦，那一定很糟糕。”对吗？
Oftentimes, the dynamics are subtle, where people don't really know how they should feel about something.
通常情况下，这种动态是微妙的，人们并不真正知道他们应该如何看待某件事。
At the extremes, we know.
在极端情况下，我们知道。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
So I'm going to reverse Russian doll us because I was all over the place.
所以我要逆转俄罗斯套娃，因为我到处都是。
So you asked about a roadmap.
所以你问了路线图。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Then I gave the example of anxiety.
然后我举了焦虑的例子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Then I gave the example of embarrassment as another emotion that's helpful.
然后我举了尴尬的例子作为另一种有帮助的情绪。
And now you're asking a question, so we're going to do it in reverse order.
现在你问了一个问题，所以我们将以相反的顺序进行。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
But I want to get back to that roadmap because I think it's a beautiful question.
但我想回到那个路线图，因为我认为这是一个很好的问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
I wrote it down.
我把它写下来了。
We haven't forgotten.
我们没有忘记。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Great.
太棒了。
Let's talk about the ambiguous interactions.
我们来谈谈模棱两可的互动。
This is fascinating.
这很有趣。
So I saw a really cool study where when two people are flirting, and that's taped, and a neutral observer is watching it, they accurately detect flirting only about 30% of the time.
所以我看到了一项非常酷的研究，当两个人调情时，并且将其录制下来，并且一个中立的观察者正在观看，他们只有大约 30% 的时间准确地检测到调情。
Different studies show 24% to 42%.
不同的研究表明这一比例为 24% 至 42%。
You're saying ambiguity is a problem.
你说歧义是一个问题。
No, ambiguity is exactly what's supposed to happen.
不，歧义正是应该发生的事情。
So if you think about what flirting is, flirting is a way to preserve plausible deniability.
因此，如果你考虑一下什么是调情，就会发现调情是一种保留合理推诿的方式。
It's a way to make you feel safe, right?
这是让你感到安全的一种方式，对吗？
So if I am really interested, "Andrew, I'm really interested in your body, bro." But if I say that, unless you are matching that energy, it's not going to be safe.
所以如果我真的感兴趣，“安德鲁，我对你的身体真的很感兴趣，兄弟。”但如果我这么说，除非你匹配那个能量，否则它不会安全。
It's not going to be good.
事情不会好起来的。
It'll ruin our relationship.
这会破坏我们的关系。
So flirting, by nature, is supposed to be missed.
因此，调情本质上是应该被怀念的。
So this is another thing where you're saying, like, yes, there's ambiguity.
所以这是你所说的另一件事，就像，是的，存在歧义。
It could be interpreted this way, and it could be interpreted this way.
可以这样解释，也可以这样解释。
That's not bad.
那还不错。
That's good.
那很好。
That's how human beings actually interact.
这就是人类实际互动的方式。
So Winnicott described this beautifully because flirting is a form of play.
温尼科特对此进行了精彩的描述，因为调情是一种游戏形式。
That's literally what it is.
字面意思就是这样。
And play is about a potential space.
游戏是一个潜在的空间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
When I'm playing dolls with my daughter, it's not defined, and the whole point is for it to be not defined.
当我和女儿玩洋娃娃时，它是没有定义的，而重点是它没有被定义。
So in that absence of definition, which now everyone is sort of like we're seeing a social skills atrophy.
因此，在缺乏定义的情况下，现在每个人都有点像我们看到了社交技能的萎缩。
So, you know the parts of our brain that interpret tone, body language, things like that, like people are becoming like we're seeing a rise of like ADHD, and everyone also feels subjectively like they're autistic.
所以，你知道我们大脑中负责解释语气、肢体语言等的部分，就像我们看到注意力缺陷多动症（ADHD）的增加一样，每个人也主观地感觉自己是自闭症患者。
It's because they're losing some degree of social skills because we text back and forth.
这是因为我们来回发短信，他们正在失去一定程度的社交技能。
And our brains don't, our occipital cortex is not interpreting visual information of people's facial expressions.
而我们的大脑则不然，我们的枕叶皮层无法解释人们面部表情的视觉信息。
So that part of our brain like literally kind of shuts off.
所以我们大脑的那部分实际上是关闭的。
So people are having a lot of difficulty with ambiguity.
所以人们在模糊性方面遇到了很多困难。
People are saying like, "Oh, this person is sending mixed signals." Like, that's the point.
人们会说，“哦，这个人发出了混合信号。”就像，这就是重点。
In a relationship, you are going to have mixed signals.
在一段关系中，你会收到混合信号。
In a friendship, you will have mixed signals.
在友谊中，你会收到复杂的信号。
We all have ambivalence within us.
我们内心都有矛盾心理。
I want to eat a healthy lean protein during lunch, and I also want to eat a fried protein during lunch, right?
我想在午餐时吃健康的瘦肉蛋白，我也想在午餐时吃油炸蛋白，对吗？
So ambiguity is actually not something to be avoided.
所以歧义实际上是无法避免的。
The really interesting thing, another transdiagnostic factor, really important one, the intolerance of uncertainty.
真正有趣的事情是另一个跨诊断因素，非常重要，那就是对不确定性的不容忍。
So human beings who are capable of tolerating uncertainty, better mental health outcomes, more resilient, improved quality of life, right?
那么，能够容忍不确定性的人类，心理健康状况会更好，更有弹性，生活质量也会得到改善，对吗？
So everyone needs defined answers.
所以每个人都需要明确的答案。
So I'll pause there for a moment just to address your flirtation example, but you're spot on.
所以我会在这里暂停一下，只是为了解决你的调情例子，但你说得很对。
We can tell what the signals are at either end.
我们可以知道两端的信号是什么。
The point of human interaction is that way we can adapt to each other.
人类互动的重点是我们可以互相适应。
You know, if I put my arm around you, then how do you respond to that?
你知道，如果我用手臂搂住你，你会如何回应？
Do you get up and go to the bathroom, or do you lean in?
你是起身去洗手间，还是弯腰去？
So these are how human interactions actually happen.
这就是人类互动实际发生的方式。
There's a lot of back and forth.
有很多来回。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fascinating.
令人着迷。
A lot of younger guys talk to me about their challenges in the dating scene.
很多年轻人跟我谈论他们在约会场景中遇到的挑战。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah, right.
是的，对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And one of the things that they seem very challenged with is the fact that they feel like whatever happens on a date is shared on the internet.
他们似乎面临很大挑战的一件事是，他们觉得约会时发生的任何事情都会在互联网上分享。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And this is, of course, not related to assault or them acting highly inappropriate or, you know, this is really like they're reported as a good or bad kisser.
当然，这与攻击或他们的行为非常不恰当无关，或者，你知道，这实际上就像他们被报道为一个好或坏的接吻者。
They're reported as a-
据报道，他们是——
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
they pay or they don't pay.
他们要么付钱，要么不付钱。
And so I think the room to explore ambiguity, to them, this is what I hear, feels very dangerous.
所以我认为探索模糊性的空间，对他们来说，这就是我所听到的，感觉非常危险。
It feels like a slippery slope-
感觉就像是滑坡——
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
where they have to perform perfectly on every measure.
他们必须在每项指标上都表现完美。
And I'm sure women feel the same way, right?
我相信女性也有同样的感觉，对吧？
I just hear from more men.
我只是听到更多男人的声音。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It's very tricky.
这非常棘手。
So I think what we're seeing in the dating world and I guess this is what we're talking about, maybe it's top of mind for me because I just did a bunch of content on it.
所以我认为我们在约会世界中看到了什么，我想这就是我们正在谈论的内容，也许这对我来说是首要考虑的，因为我刚刚在上面做了很多内容。
But, so what's interesting in the dating world is that now we're sort of adding the internet to the equation, right, which you'd sort of talked about.
但是，约会世界中有趣的是，现在我们正在将互联网添加到等式中，对吧，您已经谈到了这一点。
So let's just understand a couple of things about the internet.
让我们了解一些有关互联网的事情。
So the first is what the internet, in my opinion, this is sort of like a clinician's perspective, having read about 200 papers on various aspects of how the internet affects our brains and our psychology.
首先是互联网，在我看来，这有点像临床医生的观点，我阅读了大约 200 篇关于互联网如何影响我们的大脑和心理的各个方面的论文。
First thing to understand is that the internet selects for emotional activation.
首先要了解的是，互联网会选择情感激活。
It's not even dopamine, in my opinion.
在我看来，它甚至不是多巴胺。
So if you look at like internet, right, so it's not just fun and games.
所以如果你看看互联网，对吧，所以它不仅仅是乐趣和游戏。
Actually, the most engaging content is emotionally engaging.
事实上，最吸引人的内容是情感上的吸引人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Arousal.
唤醒。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Arousal.
唤醒。
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Adrenaline.
肾上腺素。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
And then the other interesting thing is that in order to maintain arousal, you need a dichotomy of emotions.
另一件有趣的事情是，为了保持兴奋，你需要情绪的二分法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
So I need to scare you, and then I need to make you angry, and then I need to show you a cat video, and then I need to scare you again, and then I need to tell you how AI's going to steal your job, and then I want to show you this birthday party where this baby did the cutest thing.
所以我需要吓唬你，然后我需要让你生气，然后我需要给你看一段猫视频，然后我需要再次吓唬你，然后我需要告诉你人工智能将如何抢走你的工作，然后我想向你展示这个生日聚会上这个婴儿做了最可爱的事情。
So this is literally how they maintain engagement.
所以这实际上就是他们保持参与度的方式。
And so what's really interesting about this is as our emotion, as our limbic system is like hyperactive over and over and over again, that's one of the biggest cognitive drains that we have.
所以真正有趣的是，我们的情绪，我们的边缘系统一遍又一遍地过度活跃，这是我们最大的认知消耗之一。
So like I think the top three cognitive things that drain our willpower the most, suppressing emotion, repressing emotion, even just feeling emotion is like very exhausting.
所以就像我认为最消耗我们意志力的三大认知事物一样，压抑情绪，抑制情绪，即使只是感受到情绪也让人非常疲惫。
The internet is selecting for the most emotionally activating things.
互联网正在选择最能激发情感的事物。
So which tweets get engaged with?
那么哪些推文受到关注呢？
The ones that are the most polarizing.
那些最两极分化的。
So then what happens is people are dating, and now you've got a problem because, and here's the real tragedy, is people will have a perception that if I don't say the right thing, this will get posted online.
那么接下来发生的事情就是人们正在约会，现在你遇到了一个问题，因为这是真正的悲剧，人们会认为如果我说得不对，这就会发布到网上。
That is not what happens most of the time, right?
大多数时候情况并非如此，对吧？
But this is where we as human beings have certain cognitive biases where the extreme example, like we get trained in this in medical school is, once you miss a cancer diagnosis once, it doesn't mean that every patient after that has cancer.
但这就是我们作为人类存在某些认知偏差的地方，极端的例子，就像我们在医学院接受的培训一样，一旦你错过了一次癌症诊断，并不意味着之后的每个患者都患有癌症。
But that's what the brain is designed to do.
但这就是大脑的设计目的。
Our brain is designed for survival, which means that if we get food poisoning from a restaurant even once, our brain doesn't look at that probabilistically.
我们的大脑是为生存而设计的，这意味着即使我们在餐馆食物中毒一次，我们的大脑也不会从概率上看待这种情况。
It takes the worst examples, and that's what we have to base our behavior on, right?
它采取了最糟糕的例子，这就是我们行为的基础，对吗？
Like if I'm at work and I want to, if I'm attracted to a coworker, even though there's a 90% chance that if I express some romantic interest in them, I'm going to be fine, I can't make a strategy based on that.
就像如果我在工作并且我想要这样做，如果我被同事吸引，即使有 90% 的可能性，如果我对他们表达了一些浪漫的兴趣，我会没事的，但我不能据此制定策略。
I have to base my strategy on the worst possible outcome.
我必须将我的策略建立在最坏可能结果的基础上。
That's what we're seeing in dating.
这就是我们在约会中看到的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You said that suppressing emotion is cognitively draining.
你说压抑情绪会消耗认知力。
Did I also understand correctly that being in constant arousal through different emotions is also cognitively draining?
我是否也正确地理解，通过不同的情绪不断被唤醒也会消耗认知能力？
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
I don't know if I would use the word cognitive there, but it's absolutely draining, right?
我不知道我是否会用“认知”这个词，但这绝对让人筋疲力尽，对吧？
So periods of extended arousal, and this is where like when I mean cognitive draining, I'm referring to a paper that's looking at the anterior cingulate cortex.
因此，长时间的觉醒时期，就像我所说的认知耗尽一样，我指的是一篇研究前扣带皮层的论文。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
So, and that's where when the anterior cingulate cortex and your frontal lobes are suppressing your limbic system, that's very draining But I think high levels of arousal, through the reticular activating formation and things like that, just being on emotionally, hyperactivation of your limbic system is absolutely exhausting, is the word that I would use.
所以，这就是当前扣带皮层和额叶抑制你的边缘系统时，这是非常令人疲惫的。但我认为，通过网状激活形成和类似的东西，高水平的唤醒，仅仅在情感上，你的边缘系统的过度激活绝对是令人筋疲力尽的，这就是我会用的词。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You mentioned distress tolerance is a valuable skill to have.
您提到抗压能力是一项宝贵的技能。
It feels appropriate to say, okay, distress tolerance, I totally agree.
感觉应该说，好吧，抗压能力，我完全同意。
Great to be able to tolerate distress to a point, but that sounds like it's very cognitively and generally draining.
能够在一定程度上忍受痛苦真是太好了，但这听起来像是在认知上非常消耗精力。
So how would you encourage someone to develop healthy levels of distress tolerance?
那么，你会如何鼓励某人培养健康的抗压能力呢？
But if that involves constant suppression of an impulse to shout, to react, that sounds like it could get very unhealthy.
但如果这涉及到不断抑制喊叫、反应的冲动，那听起来可能会变得非常不健康。
So I realize we're sort of staying on this tangent, but I feel like what defines healthy distress tolerance if pushing back an emotional reaction or pushing down an emotional reaction is not good for us?
所以我意识到我们有点停留在这个切线上，但我觉得如果抑制情绪反应或抑制情绪反应对我们不利，那么什么定义了健康的痛苦耐受力？
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
So distress tolerance doesn't only include emotional suppression.
因此，耐受痛苦不仅仅包括情绪压抑。
Right?
对吗？
So what's really interesting about distress tolerance is a key feature of distress tolerance is not even suppressing, is the opposite, is accepting your emotions.
因此，痛苦容忍的真正有趣之处在于，痛苦容忍的一个关键特征甚至不是压抑，相反，是接受你的情绪。
It's actually moving in the opposite direction.
它实际上是在向相反的方向移动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Feeling your feelings.
感受你的感受。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Feeling your feelings.
感受你的感受。
Right?
对吗？
Recognizing that you feel your feelings.
认识到你感受到了你的感受。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What if somebody feels extremely angry, and they want to feel their feelings?
如果有人感到非常愤怒并且想要感受自己的感受怎么办？
What is a healthy way for them to do that?
他们这样做的健康方式是什么？
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Three things.
三件事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Okay, so if you want to learn how to control your emotions, you want to be tranquil in the face of your emotions is what I would say.
好吧，所以如果你想学习如何控制你的情绪，我想说的是你想要平静地面对你的情绪。
Three things you can do.
你可以做三件事。
The first thing is putting words to your emotion.
首先是用言语表达你的情感。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
So right now, I don't know if this kind of makes sense.
所以现在我不知道这样是否有意义。
The more angry you are, right, the more your amygdala is hyperactive.
你越生气，你的杏仁核就越活跃。
It is drowning out every other part of your brain.
它淹没了你大脑的所有其他部分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
So the first thing that you have to do is put words to it.
所以你要做的第一件事就是用语言表达它。
And when you put words to it, you can't put words to, "Ah." There's no word there.
当你用言语表达时，你不能用言语表达“啊”。那里没有字。
So the moment that you try to put words to it, it has to calm down.
所以当你试图对它说话的那一刻，它必须平静下来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
In order for your linguistic centers, Broca's area, and all these, in order for them to articulate it, you have to understand it.
为了让你的语言中心、布罗卡区以及所有这些，为了让它们能够表达它，你必须理解它。
So Freud understood this over 100 years ago, and there's something powerful about processing emotions by putting them into words.
弗洛伊德在 100 多年前就明白了这一点，并且通过将情绪表达为语言来处理情绪具有强大的力量。
In order to put words to it, we have to tone it down some.
为了表达它，我们必须把它调低一些。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
So that's the first thing.
这是第一件事。
The problem is that people oftentimes think that that is sufficient.
问题是人们常常认为这就足够了。
Right?
对吗？
So people will say, "Journal.
所以人们会说，“日记。
Go see a therapist and talk about your feelings." Man, the number of times that I've had-- I had this patient who came in, if I can tell a story.
去看治疗师，谈谈你的感受。”伙计，我曾经有过很多次——如果我能讲一个故事的话，我就遇到过这样的病人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Please.
请。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
And so I was a third-year resident.
所以我是第三年的住院医师。
I had done maybe 100 hours, 200 hours of psychotherapy.
我已经做了大约100、200小时的心理治疗。
So I had a guy come in.
所以我请了一个人进来。
He'd been in the clinic for eight years, had depression, was a dude in his 40s.
他在诊所工作了八年，患有抑郁症，四十多岁。
He came in, and he would tell me about why he was sad every day.
他进来了，他会告诉我他每天为什么难过。
Every week he'd come in, he's like, "I got written up at work.
每周他来的时候都会说，“我的工作被记录下来了。
People are complaining because I snapped at them.
人们抱怨是因为我对他们厉声斥责。
One of the patients is complaining because I didn't give him benzos." And so he'd come in every week.
其中一名患者抱怨，因为我没有给他服用苯并类药物。”所以他每周都会来。
He'd talk about why he was depressed.
他会谈论他为什么感到沮丧。
I'd be like, "Why are you depressed, bro?" And he'd tell me some story about something bad that happened in his life.
我会说：“兄弟，你为什么沮丧？”他会告诉我一些关于他生活中发生的坏事的故事。
And then we did this for six months, and I didn't know, because I'm learning psychotherapy, right?
然后我们这样做了六个月，我不知道，因为我正在学习心理治疗，对吗？
So I'm like, "I'm supposed to be supportive, and I'm supposed to be like, 'Okay, that must be hard for you.
所以我想，“我应该支持，我应该说，‘好吧，这对你来说一定很难。
How does that make you feel?
这让你感觉如何？
That must be so hard for you.
这对你来说一定很难。
How does that make you feel?
这让你感觉如何？
That must be so hard for you.'" We do this dance for six months.
这对你来说一定太难了。’”我们跳这种舞蹈六个月。
And then one day he comes in, and I'm kind of getting frustrated, and I'm like, "Hey, is this helping?" And he's like, "What do you mean, is it helping?" I'm like, "Is it helping?
然后有一天他进来了，我有点沮丧，我想，“嘿，这有帮助吗？”他说：“你的意思是，这有帮助吗？”我想，“这有帮助吗？
Do you feel any better than when you came in six months ago?" And he's like, "I thought this was what we're supposed to do.
你感觉比六个月前进来时好一点了吗？”他说，“我认为这就是我们应该做的。
I'm just supposed to come in every week.
我应该每周都来。
I tell you about how I'm sad, and then you tell me it must be-- Isn't that what psychotherapy is?" And it was a huge light bulb moment for me because talking about your feelings, especially for men, is not enough much of the time.
我告诉你我有多悲伤，然后你告诉我这一定是——这不是心理治疗吗？”这对我来说是一个巨大的灵感时刻，因为谈论你的感受，尤其是对男人来说，很多时候是不够的。
Fascinating neuroscience and endocrinology behind that.
这背后有令人着迷的神经科学和内分泌学。
Putting words to it is just step one.
用语言表达只是第一步。
Second thing, this is a really important skill, cultivating additional emotions.
第二件事，这是一项非常重要的技能，培养额外的情感。
So if you look at people who are resilient, if you tunnel down into the internal dialogue of people who are resilient, you'll notice that they do something else, some interesting things.
因此，如果你观察那些有弹性的人，如果你深入了解有弹性的人的内部对话，你会发现他们做了一些其他的事情，一些有趣的事情。
So my patients who are very severely ill, right, and literally what I try to do with them over the course of weeks is this thing happened, and I feel overwhelming shame.
所以我的病人病得很重，对吧，在几周的时间里我试图对他们做的就是这件事发生了，我感到无比羞耻。
The moment that you start cultivating additional emotions.
当你开始培养额外的情绪的那一刻。
So I've been dumped by my boyfriend or my girlfriend.
所以我被我的男朋友或女朋友甩了。
I'm really, really depressed.
我真的非常非常沮丧。
I'm going to be alone for the rest of my life.
我将独自度过余生。
They start to catastrophize.
他们开始陷入灾难。
They have a lot of negative emotion.
他们有很多负面情绪。
And it's really easy in that moment to forget that, okay, I had three years of wonderful experiences with this person before things went downhill.
在那一刻，我很容易忘记，好吧，在事情开始走下坡路之前，我和这个人有过三年美好的经历。
It's really easy to forget all of the positives.
人们很容易忘记所有的积极因素。
It's really easy to realize that three years of experience followed by, let's say, one year of a toxic relationship is going to actually protect you from the next toxic relationship.
人们很容易意识到，三年的经验加上一年的有毒关系实际上可以保护你免受下一次有毒关系的影响。
So cultivating additional emotions is a huge fundamental part of EQ, and you don't just have to tolerate it or suppress it.
因此，培养额外的情绪是情商的重要组成部分，你不能只是容忍它或压抑它。
These are the additional things that you can do.
这些是您可以执行的其他操作。
And this is really important.
这非常重要。
It's not just cultivating positive emotions when you're feeling negative emotions.
当你感受到负面情绪时，这不仅仅是培养积极情绪。
It's the other way around as well.
反之亦然。
I've seen more relationships ruined by falling in love than anything else, and you just fall in love with the wrong person.
我见过比其他任何事情都因坠入爱河而毁掉的关系，而你只是爱上了错误的人。
You're in a relationship, and you fall in love with somebody else.
你处于恋爱关系中，并且爱上了别人。
So many people I've worked with, "I have this great business idea, and I get so excited about it, and I'm going to start this AI company." That's the time that you actually want to cultivate negative emotion.
与我共事过的很多人都说：“我有一个很棒的商业想法，我对此感到非常兴奋，我要创办这家人工智能公司。”那是你真正想要培养负面情绪的时候。
Cultivate a little bit of anxiety.
培养一点焦虑感。
What could go wrong?
可能会出什么问题？
Make sure you ask yourself that question.
请务必问自己这个问题。
Literally, in addiction psychiatry, we have a cool technique that we use with people where it doesn't really work so much anymore, but we tell people to play the tape through to the end.
从字面上看，在成瘾精神病学中，我们有一种很酷的技术，我们对人们使用它，但它不再那么有效了，但我们告诉人们把磁带从头到尾播放。
You're really excited right now, and you want to do this thing, but Play the tape through to the end.
你现在真的很兴奋，你想做这件事，但要把磁带播放到底。
What are all of the negative things that could happen?
可能发生哪些负面事情？
So that cognitive flexibility, that emotional flexibility is really important.
因此，认知灵活性、情感灵活性非常重要。
We have to understand what emotions are.
我们必须了解什么是情绪。
So a lot of times, this is going around on the internet where feel your feelings, right?
所以很多时候，这都是在网上流传的，感受一下你的感受，对吧？
I'm just going to be authentic with my feelings today, which means that you're an asshole, Andrew, and this is my truth, right?
今天我要诚实地表达我的感受，这意味着你是个混蛋，安德鲁，这就是我的真相，对吗？
So we've started speaking our truths as excuses to being assholes.
所以我们开始说实话，以此作为混蛋的借口。
That's what's happening on the internet.
这就是互联网上正在发生的事情。
It's what's happening in real relationships because people are watching social media and they're like, "I should speak my truth," right?
这就是现实关系中发生的事情，因为人们在观看社交媒体时，他们会说，“我应该说出我的真相，”对吧？
So the other thing that's really important is to understand that an emotion is not a behavior.
因此，另一件真正重要的事情是要了解情绪不是行为。
An emotion is literally, from an evolutionary perspective, and you may know this better than I do, is information and is motivation.
从进化的角度来看，情绪实际上就是信息，也是动机，你可能比我更清楚。
That's what emotions are for.
这就是情绪的用途。
So when you feel fear, when you're walking outside, walking to the outhouse in the middle of the night, and you feel fear, all this sensory input is being processed in parts of your brain that you have no conscious awareness of.
因此，当你感到恐惧时，当你在外面散步时，半夜走到户外厕所时，你感到恐惧时，所有这些感觉输入都在你没有意识到的大脑部分中进行处理。
The first thing that happens is that you feel emotion before you have any logical idea of what are you even scared of.
首先发生的事情是，在你对自己到底害怕什么有任何逻辑想法之前，你就会感受到情绪。
That is your brain telling you something.
那是你的大脑在告诉你一些事情。
The other thing is it's motivation, right?
另一件事是它的动机，对吗？
I feel like running away.
我有种想要逃跑的感觉。
And this is where, unfortunately, our brain evolved for a world that we don't live in anymore.
不幸的是，这就是我们的大脑为我们不再生活的世界而进化的地方。
So, back when I used to feel fear because I was being hunted by a tiger, the natural impulses that our fear encourage us to do don't work when you've got to pay rent at the end of the month, or you've got to pay your mortgage, or you've got to do well on your performance review.
所以，当我曾经因为被老虎追捕而感到恐惧时，当你必须在月底支付租金，或者你必须支付抵押贷款，或者你必须在绩效评估中表现出色时，我们的恐惧鼓励我们去做的自然冲动就不起作用了。
So oftentimes, what we do is we think that feeling authentically means letting our emotion run the show.
很多时候，我们所做的就是认为真实的感受意味着让我们的情感主导一切。
We don't want to do that.
我们不想这样做。
We want to ask ourselves, "What is this emotion telling me?
我们要问自己：“这种情绪在告诉我什么？
Why do I feel fear?
为什么我会感到恐惧？
What am I afraid of?" And I don't even think what am I afraid of is the right question.
我害怕什么？”我什至不认为我害怕什么是正确的问题。
It's way too self-help.
这也太自助了吧
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
It's way too psychotherapy for me.
这对我来说太心理治疗了。
It's what is my fear telling me?
这就是我的恐惧在告诉我什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What is the information and motivation that it's signaling?
它传达的信息和动机是什么？
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And then what is it telling me to do, right?
然后它告诉我要做什么，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like your client who was feeling very anxious all the time, by exploring that emotion, eventually it sounds like came to the understanding that it wasn't the job for him.
就像你的客户一直感到非常焦虑一样，通过探索这种情绪，最终听起来好像明白这不适合他的工作。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Perfect, right?
完美，对吧？
And so he's trying so hard, right?
所以他这么努力，对吗？
So the anxiety is clinging onto his job, but actually once you understand the emotion, it's actually walking away.
因此，焦虑一直伴随着他的工作，但实际上，一旦你理解了这种情绪，它实际上就会消失。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
And so once you have mastery over your emotions in this way, and I think mastery is maybe a better word, it makes life so much better, right?
因此，一旦你以这种方式掌控了自己的情绪，我认为掌控可能是一个更好的词，它会让生活变得更好，对吧？
When we talk about distress tolerance, that's what I'm talking about.
当我们谈论痛苦耐受力时，这就是我所说的。
It's not just suppression.
这不仅仅是镇压。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wonderful.
太棒了。
I so appreciate your answer, the thoroughness of it, the clarity of it.
我非常感谢您的回答，它的彻底性和清晰度。
Distress tolerance is putting words to emotion, adding additional language to it, and exploring the reverse context as well, the negative aspects of positive emotions-
痛苦容忍就是用语言表达情感，在其中添加额外的语言，并探索相反的情境，即积极情绪的消极方面——
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah, absolutely
是的，绝对
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the positive aspects.
积极的方面。
So it sounds like it's broadening the time domain, thinking about this in going forward, what does this represent in the past, present, and future, and then really thinking about what the emotion is signaling.
所以听起来它正在拓宽时域，在未来思考这一点，这在过去、现在和未来代表什么，然后真正思考情感在传达什么信号。
What a beautiful description of distress tolerance, because it's also operational.
对遇险容忍度的描述是多么美妙啊，因为它也是可操作的。
People can put this to work.
人们可以将其付诸实践。
Thank you.
谢谢你。
That's fantastic.
太棒了。
If you're a regular listener of the Huberman Lab podcast, you've no doubt heard me talk about the vitamin mineral probiotic drink AG1.
如果您是 Huberman Lab 播客的常客，您无疑听过我谈论过维生素矿物质益生菌饮料 AG1。
And if you've been on the fence about it, now's an awesome time to give it a try.
如果您一直对此持观望态度，那么现在正是尝试的好时机。
For the next few weeks, AG1 is giving away a full supplement package with your first subscription to AG1.
在接下来的几周内，AG1 将在您首次订阅 AG1 时赠送完整的补充包。
They're giving away a free bottle of vitamin D3+K2, a bottle of omega-3 fish oil capsules, and a sample pack of the new sleep formula, AGZ, which by the way, is now the only sleep supplement I take.
他们免费赠送一瓶维生素 D3+K2、一瓶 omega-3 鱼油胶囊和新睡眠配方 AGZ 样品包，顺便说一下，它是我现在唯一服用的睡眠补充剂。
It's fantastic.
太棒了。
My sleep on AGZ is out of this world good.
我在 AGZ 的睡眠质量非常好。
AGZ is a drink, so it eliminates the need to take a lot of pills.
AGZ 是一种饮料，因此无需服用大量药片。
It tastes great, and like I said, it has me sleeping incredibly well, waking up more refreshed than ever.
它味道好极了，就像我说的，它让我睡得非常好，醒来时比以往任何时候都精神焕发。
I absolutely love it.
我非常喜欢它。
Again, this is a limited time offer, so make sure to go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get started today.
再次强调，这是限时优惠，因此请务必立即访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 开始。
The roadmap.
路线图。
If we could go back to the roadmap-
如果我们能回到路线图-
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
if you could spell out for us what do you think of as the roadmap to navigate this very complex landscape that we exist in now?
如果您能为我们详细说明您认为导航我们现在所处的这个非常复杂的环境的路线图是什么？
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And this could be relationship with this person.
这可能是与这个人的关系。
It could be a doctor, go to an Ivy League school versus be an artist or any number of different examples where we have to make the distinction of what's wished for us and expected of us versus what is true to us on the inside.
它可以是一名医生，去常春藤盟校与成为一名艺术家或许多不同的例子，我们必须区分我们的愿望和期望与我们内心真实的东西。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That seems to be, to me, where the-
对我来说，这似乎就是——
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Okay
好的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
where the friction of life exists.
生活中存在摩擦的地方。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That, to me, is the most interesting question in life, frankly.
坦率地说，对我来说，这是生活中最有趣的问题。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Let me just make sure I understand your question.
让我确保我理解你的问题。
The friction and joy of life is the rest of the world wants me to do all of these things, and sometimes this doesn't want to do those things.
生活的摩擦和快乐在于世界其他地方希望我做所有这些事情，而有时这个世界不想做那些事情。
Sometimes it does want to do those things.
有时它确实想做那些事情。
When do I listen to this, and when do I listen to everything that?
我什么时候听这个，什么时候听所有的？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes.
是的。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Right?
对吗？
Okay, beautiful question.
好吧，漂亮的问题。
So this is where I'm going to lean into the Eastern stuff for a second.
因此，这就是我要暂时了解东方事物的地方。
So I spent seven years studying to become a monk, and then I went to medical school, and I became a psychiatrist, and I had a really weird experience of training in psychiatry because everyone was teaching me how the mind works, okay?
所以我花了七年的时间学习成为一名和尚，然后我去了医学院，然后我成为了一名精神科医生，我在精神病学方面的培训经历了一次非常奇怪的经历，因为每个人都在教我思想如何运作，好吗？
And this is good teachers at the Harvard Medical School, and they're like, "Here's how the mind works, and this is what the subconscious is," and there's cognitive behavioral therapy, right?
这是哈佛医学院的好老师，他们会说，“这就是思维的运作方式，这就是潜意识”，还有认知行为疗法，对吧？
So the Aaron Beck taught us that there's thoughts, emotions, and behaviors, and that all these things connect.
因此，亚伦·贝克告诉我们，有思想、情感和行为，而且所有这些东西都是相互联系的。
And the really fascinating thing, my most instinctive response When people would tell me how it is, is, "No, it's not." So in the East, they have a completely different conception of mind, and here's the big problem with the Western conception of mind.
真正令人着迷的是，当人们告诉我这是怎么回事时，我最本能的反应是，“不，不是。”所以在东方，他们有完全不同的心灵观念，这就是西方心灵观念的大问题。
You're a scientist, right?
你是一名科学家，对吧？
How do you learn about something, Andrew?
你如何了解某事，安德鲁？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You have a question.
你有一个问题。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Okay, good.
好的，很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You pose a hypothesis.
你提出一个假设。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Excellent.
太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You design an experiment-
你设计一个实验——
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Good
好
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
where you isolate variables.
隔离变量的地方。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you either refute or you, in some sense, support your hypothesis.
你要么反驳，要么在某种意义上支持你的假设。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then you design another experiment.
然后你设计另一个实验。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Great.
太棒了。
And it proves, right?
这证明了，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you ask another question.
然后你问另一个问题。
You just keep going.
你就继续吧。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
So Andrew-
所以安德鲁-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then you get tenure, and then you start a podcast.
然后你获得终身教职，然后你开始播客。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Beautiful, right?
很漂亮，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just kidding.
开玩笑。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
No, no. So let me ask you this.
不，不。那么让我问你这个问题。
How do you study the mind?
你如何研究心灵？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
And here's what's really interesting.
这才是真正有趣的地方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I do not know.
是的，我不知道。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
So here's what's really fascinating.
这就是真正令人着迷的地方。
Do we have any scientific evidence of the existence of thought?
我们有任何科学证据证明思想的存在吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We could define thoughts as some pattern of network activity.
我们可以将思想定义为某种网络活动模式。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
What I mean is if we literally look at it, we have no instrument that can detect a thought.
我的意思是，如果我们从字面上看，我们没有任何仪器可以检测思想。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's right.
没错。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Right?
对吗？
So we have no proof.
所以我们没有证据。
We cannot measure a thought.
我们无法衡量一个想法。
It is literally impossible.
这实际上是不可能的。
We can measure blood flow to the brain.
我们可以测量流向大脑的血流量。
We can measure electrical activity in the brain.
我们可以测量大脑的电活动。
We can induce thoughts.
我们可以引发想法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Right?
对吗？
We can do that, but we have no idea that a thought exists.
我们可以做到这一点，但我们不知道想法是否存在。
So psychiatry is weird because every other part of medicine and science, we can measure what we are studying.
所以精神病学很奇怪，因为医学和科学的其他部分，我们可以衡量我们正在研究的内容。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
In psychiatry, we can't do that.
在精神病学中，我们不能这样做。
So along came Freud, and he made a fascinating discovery, which is when a human being speaks, we understand something about what's in their mind, and the whole reason we get trained and the reason that we can measure your mind, right?
于是弗洛伊德出现了，他做出了一个令人着迷的发现，那就是当一个人说话时，我们能理解他们的想法，以及我们接受训练的全部原因以及我们可以测量你的想法的原因，对吗？
So we have validated scientific instruments using things like factor analysis and stuff like that, where we can use the Beck Depression Inventory, which will tell you how depressed you are.
因此，我们使用因素分析等方法验证了科学仪器，其中我们可以使用贝克抑郁量表，它会告诉您您的抑郁程度。
We have good ways to measure stuff, so there's a lot of science in psychiatry.
我们有很好的方法来衡量事物，所以精神病学中有很多科学知识。
The basic problem, though, is that we have a fundamental problem.
但基本问题是我们有一个根本问题。
We have insight into someone's mind, but we can't detect the mind.
我们可以洞悉某人的内心，但我们无法察觉他人的内心。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
That is a fundamental problem with science, okay?
这是科学的一个基本问题，好吗？
Here's the cool thing.
这是很酷的事情。
We have no scientific measurement of thought, but we as human beings have measurement of thoughts.
我们没有对思想的科学测量，但我们作为人类有对思想的测量。
Can I ever know what you are thinking using any instrument of science?
我可以使用任何科学仪器知道你在想什么吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're the psychiatrist, so I'm tempted to say yes, but no.
你是精神科医生，所以我很想说“是”，但又“不”。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
No, right?
不，对吧？
Can you know what you're thinking?
你能知道你在想什么吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I would like to think so, but I'm guessing-
我想是这样，但我猜——
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I can ask myself what's going on in there, but I don't necessarily have the ability to put language to it in a way that captures what I'm thinking.
我可以问自己那里发生了什么，但我不一定有能力用语言来表达我的想法。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Fine, but you are capable of observing your thoughts.
很好，但你有能力观察你的想法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
You are capable of-- I'm not capable of observing your thoughts.
你有能力——我没有能力观察你的想法。
Whether you detect all of them, whether they're right or wrong, that question is separate.
无论你检测到所有这些，无论它们是对还是错，这个问题都是分开的。
Just the fundamental idea of you can measure an axon, you can detect your thought, right?
只是你可以测量轴突的基本想法，你可以检测你的想法，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
We all live in this way.
我们都是这样生活的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Right?
对吗？
So we can get to the edge cases later.
所以我们稍后可以讨论边缘情况。
So here's the cool thing.
这就是很酷的事情。
So when I went to India and I studied for seven years, the difference between the psychology that was developed from the contemplative traditions is its foundation is internal observation.
所以当我去印度学习了七年时，从冥想传统发展而来的心理学的区别在于它的基础是内部观察。
So yogis are capable, we're all, it's not like some special ability, but they based their theory of mind on what they could observe.
所以瑜伽士是有能力的，我们都有，这不像某种特殊能力，但他们的心理理论基于他们可以观察到的东西。
Whereas in the West, that is not something we have access to.
而在西方，这不是我们能够获得的东西。
So their theory of mind is very different.
所以他们的心智理论非常不同。
So when I was training to become a psychiatrist, people were like, "This is how the mind works," and I'm like, "No, that's not true." Right?
因此，当我接受精神科医生培训时，人们会说，“这就是思维的运作方式”，而我则说，“不，那不是真的。”对吗？
There is a different way.
还有一种不同的方法。
So here's one example, getting to the roadmap.
这是一个例子，了解路线图。
So the biggest thing that I think is different is the ego.
所以我认为最大的不同就是自我。
So in the East, they have the concept of a part of our mind that is the ego.
所以在东方，他们有我们心灵的一部分的概念，那就是自我。
And in the West, we use the word ego.
在西方，我们使用“自我”这个词。
Freud defined it in some way.
弗洛伊德以某种方式定义了它。
We all have this intuitive sense of identity, but in the same way that logic and emotions interact in a very mechanistic and defined way, in the West, our model does not include this piece, and the roadmap that you're talking about has to do with that piece.
我们都有这种直观的认同感，但就像逻辑和情感以一种非常机械和明确的方式相互作用一样，在西方，我们的模型不包括这块，而你所说的路线图与那块有关。
So if the rest of the world-- Because things get complicated, right?
所以如果世界其他地方——因为事情变得复杂了，对吧？
That's why it's so exciting for you and so challenging.
这就是为什么它对你来说如此令人兴奋且如此具有挑战性。
Things get complicated, so everyone wants you to be something.
事情变得复杂，所以每个人都希望你有所作为。
And then we make a big mistake because we do this thing called internalize.
然后我们就犯了一个大错误，因为我们做了一种叫做内化的事情。
And the moment that you internalize, now is it coming from the outside, or is it coming from you?
当你内化的那一刻，它是来自外部，还是来自你？
Is this something that I've been conditioned to want, or is it something that I truly want?
这是我习惯性想要的东西，还是我真正想要的东西？
Which then begs the question, what the hell is truly want?
这就引出了一个问题，真正想要的到底是什么？
Is there a difference between want from over here and want from over there?
这里的需求和那边的需求有区别吗？
And the yogis will say that the answer is yes.
瑜伽修行者会说答案是肯定的。
So once you understand the ego, and the ego functions in a couple of ways.
所以一旦你了解了自我，自我就会以多种方式发挥作用。
If I ask you, Andrew, who are you, what would you say?
如果我问你，安德鲁，你是谁，你会说什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Andrew.
安德鲁.
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Okay.
好的。
Is that it?
是这样吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have a list of roles that I occupy in life.
我有一张我在生活中扮演的角色的清单。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Very good.
非常好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, I-
我的意思是，我——
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Are those you?
那些是你吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're facets of me.
它们是我的侧面。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Okay.
好的。
Right.
对。
So anything that you can use to describe.
所以你可以用任何东西来描述。
Tenured professor at Stanford.
斯坦福大学终身教授。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
I wouldn't put that first-
我不会把它放在第一位-
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but that happens to be true.
但这恰好是真的。
I'm a brother.
我是一个兄弟。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Brother.
兄弟。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm a boyfriend.
我是一个男朋友。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Skater.
滑冰运动员。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Once a skater, always a skater, but yes.
曾经是一名滑冰运动员，永远是一名滑冰运动员，但是是的。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm a public educator.
我是一名公共教育工作者。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Great.
太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm a son, a friend.
我是一个儿子，一个朋友。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
All of that stuff is ego.
所有这些东西都是自我。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Okay, so ego is anything, when you say, "I am dot, dot, dot"- Anything that defines you after that is actually part of your ego.
好吧，所以自我就是任何东西，当你说“我是点，点，点”时，任何定义你的东西实际上都是你自我的一部分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
And the interesting thing is that it's not that the ego is bad.
有趣的是，自我并不是坏事。
This is a common misconception.
这是一个常见的误解。
But we all need ego to function in the world.
但我们都需要自我才能在世界上发挥作用。
If you are okay not functioning in the world and you're moving towards enlightenment, then you no longer need ego.
如果你可以不在这个世界上运作并且你正在走向启蒙，那么你就不再需要自我。
But generally speaking, we need ego.
但一般来说，我们需要自我。
So, if you're looking for a roadmap of what you truly want in life and what is healthy for you and not healthy for you, when you say you're Andrew, there's a lot of other people who can claim to be Andrew, but they're not you.
所以，如果你正在寻找一个路线图，了解你在生活中真正想要什么，什么对你健康，什么对你不健康，当你说你是安德鲁时，有很多其他人可以声称自己是安德鲁，但他们不是你。
You're talking about a fundamental internal experience of the self.
你谈论的是自我的基本内部体验。
And you were Andrew before you were a boyfriend.
在你成为男朋友之前你是安德鲁。
You've always been a son.
你一直都是儿子。
But actually, you were Andrew before you even knew you were a son, right?
但实际上，在你知道自己是儿子之前你就是安德鲁，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
You were still Andrew.
你还是安德鲁。
So there's a fundamental bundle of experience.
因此，有一系列基本的经验。
That's really what you are.
你确实就是这样的。
And I think that the best roadmap, if you're trying to figure out what to do in life, try to peel away the layers of your ego.
我认为最好的路线图是，如果你想弄清楚生活中该做什么，那就试着剥去你的自我意识。
And I know that's getting complicated.
我知道事情变得越来越复杂。
But if we think about what is it that practically gets us jammed up in life is when I try to be something.
但如果我们想一想，当我试图成为某样东西时，实际上让我们在生活中陷入困境的是什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
I know this is going to sound weird.
我知道这听起来很奇怪。
I'm sure you have ambition, but I don't think you are where you are because of your ambition.
我确信你有野心，但我不认为你能取得今天的成就是因为你的野心。
I think you are where you are because you listen to this internal voice, not try to live up to external expectations.
我认为你现在所处的位置是因为你倾听内心的声音，而不是试图满足外部的期望。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
100%.
100%。
I can truly say that every choice I've made to get into fish and animals when I was a kid, obsessed with birds and fish, and then skateboarding, and then biology and science, and where I'm at now, has been some sense of an internal passion and something pulling me from the outside, and it's just I just go.
我可以真诚地说，当我还是个孩子的时候，痴迷于鸟类和鱼类，然后是滑板，然后是生物学和科学，我所做的每一个选择进入鱼类和动物领域，然后是生物学和科学，以及我现在所处的位置，都是某种内在的热情和某种从外部吸引我的东西，而我只是走了。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Those choices were always made because I knew in my heart's heart there was no other option, in the positive sense.
我总是做出这些选择，因为我内心深处知道，从积极的意义上来说，没有其他选择。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm going.
我走了。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm pulled toward it, and I'm driven toward it.
我被拉向它，我也被驱使向它。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Right.
对。
So you are listening to a part of you, right?
所以你正在倾听你的一部分，对吗？
So it is an internal thing that the world then meets you halfway, so it makes it possible, or there's a whole thing about that.
所以这是一个内在的事情，世界然后与你相遇，所以它使之成为可能，或者有一个完整的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For me, it's a physical energy.
对我来说，这是一种身体能量。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Fine.
很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If I feel physical energy coming up in my body and I want to move towards something, and for some reason, I feel it more in my left arm than anywhere else, that has always been true.
如果我感觉到身体能量在我的身体里升起，并且我想要朝着某件事前进，并且出于某种原因，我在左臂上比在其他地方更能感觉到它，这一直是事实。
I'll have a thought, and that's when I go, "Oh, my goodness, I'm going to do this thing." I know I'm going to do it, and there's no backing out because it has to happen.
我会有一个想法，然后我就会说：“哦，天哪，我要做这件事。”我知道我会这么做，而且没有退缩的余地，因为它必须发生。
That's how it feels.
就是这样的感觉。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Right.
对。
So any desire that you have that comes from the sense organs is probably not this thing.
所以任何来自感觉器官的欲望可能都不是这个东西。
So the sense organs can trigger something within you.
所以感觉器官可以触发你体内的某些东西。
But if we look at social media, the hardest problem I have as a psychiatrist is convincing people that they don't really want the things that they say they want.
但如果我们看看社交媒体，作为一名精神科医生，我遇到的最困难的问题是让人们相信他们并不真正想要他们所说的想要的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
It's so crazy, right?
太疯狂了，对吧？
We're being programmed.
我们正在被编程。
We're being conditioned.
我们正在受到条件限制。
And I realized this the other day when I was like, "Man, I wish..." I talked to my agent about doing more talks.
有一天我意识到了这一点，当时我想，“伙计，我希望......”我和我的经纪人谈论了进行更多谈判的事情。
I want to go someplace and get paid speaking engagements.
我想去某个地方并获得有偿演讲机会。
And I realized I actually hate that.
我意识到我实际上讨厌那样。
I don't like that.
我不喜欢这样。
It's just what I thought people like us do.
我认为像我们这样的人就是这么做的。
And I've done a couple of them, which have been really fantastic, and I really enjoy that, but I like sitting with people.
我已经完成了其中的几个，非常棒，我真的很喜欢，但我喜欢和人们坐在一起。
So we're trained, and just think about it.
所以我们受过训练，只是想一想。
Anyone who's listening to this, think about all the shit that you've seen that you think you want, but you don't really want.
任何正在听这个的人，想想你所看到的所有你认为你想要的，但你并不真正想要的狗屎。
You just look at other people and you're like, "Yeah, I want that thing." It can be a particular kind of relationship.
你只要看看其他人就会说：“是的，我想要那个东西。”它可以是一种特殊的关系。
It can be a particular job.
它可以是一项特定的工作。
We all want all this random stuff, and it's all coming from our sense organs.
我们都想要所有这些随机的东西，而它们都来自我们的感觉器官。
This is why advertising is a thing.
这就是为什么广告是一回事。
So stepping away from sense organs is really important for that roadmap.
因此，远离感觉器官对于该路线图非常重要。
Second thing is anything that you want that is a comparison.
第二件事是你想要的任何东西，那就是比较。
That is born of the ego.
那是由自我而生的。
The ego is what defines you.
自我定义了你。
So we can say tenured professor.
所以我们可以说终身教授。
We can say associate part-time instructor.
我们可以说助理兼职讲师。
And so any comparison requires a definition.
因此任何比较都需要定义。
Does that make sense?
这有道理吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
So all of the gold medalist, silver medalist, bronze medalist, that's a comparative thing.
所以所有的金牌得主、银牌得主、铜牌得主，这都是一个比较的事情。
If I say I'm a silver medalist, then my desire for the gold medal can come out of the ego.
如果我说我是银牌得主，那么我对金牌的渴望可能来自自我。
Does that make sense?
这有道理吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes.
是的。
The reason I'm sort of with my hand below my lip is because I'm so struck by this because I've had this feeling for a while now that most of the danger in life comes from the feeling that we need to prove something to others or to ourselves.
我之所以把手放在嘴唇下面，是因为我对此感到非常震惊，因为我已经有这种感觉有一段时间了，生活中的大部分危险都来自于我们需要向他人或自己证明某些东西的感觉。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And yet, I know it's healthy to prove things to myself.
然而，我知道向自己证明事情是健康的。
It's felt good to be able to accomplish certain things.
能够完成某些事情的感觉很好。
I did that.
我就是这么做的。
I could do other difficult things.
我可以做其他困难的事情。
But the origin of all of that work, in my mind, it's only healthy, at least for me, if it's not by virtue of trying to prove something.
但在我看来，所有这些工作的起源只有在不试图证明某些事情的情况下才是健康的，至少对我来说是这样。
It's like there's a difference between a genuine heart's desire, for lack of a better way to put it, and what you're calling a pursuit of trying to win at some game in one's head.
就好像一颗真诚的内心渴望（因为缺乏更好的表达方式）和你所谓的在头脑中试图赢得某场比赛的追求之间是有区别的。
It's like a video game that isn't real.
这就像一个不真实的视频游戏。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It's not that it's not real.
这并不是说它不真实。
So I agree with you 100%, and I think there's a couple of important things.
所以我 100% 同意你的观点，我认为有几件重要的事情。
So proving yourself is not wholly wrong.
所以证明自己并不是完全错误的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
But understand that it is the ego.
但要明白那是自我。
That's what it's going to gratify.
这就是它会感到高兴的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
So if you have an ego of, "I am a loser," by all means, so this is part of the process.
因此，如果你有一种自我意识，“我是一个失败者”，无论如何，这是这个过程的一部分。
I have people in my office who are losers, for lack of a better term.
我办公室里有一些人是失败者，因为没有更好的词来形容。
29 years old, living at home, playing video games all day, watching pornography, no job, dropped out of college.
29岁，住在家里，整天玩电子游戏，看色情片，没有工作，大学辍学。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
And so what they want more than anything else is to be a winner.
所以他们最想要的就是成为胜利者。
And so my work involves two steps.
所以我的工作包括两个步骤。
First, let's help you go from loser to winner, and then let's abandon the whole paradigm.
首先，让我们帮助您从失败者变成胜利者，然后让我们放弃整个范式。
Because I've also had people in my office who are billionaires and finally get to retire at the age of 52 after having sold their amazing third company, and then after retirement, it's not enough.
因为我办公室里也有一些亿万富翁，在出售了他们令人惊叹的第三家公司后最终在 52 岁时退休，但退休后，这还不够。
They want to make another billion.
他们还想再赚十亿。
They want to do something else.
他们想做点别的事情。
So that loser to winner, your mind will continually move the goalposts.
因此，从失败者到胜利者，你的思想将不断移动球门柱。
If you were hungry before you got it, the thing won't fulfill your hunger.
如果你在得到它之前就饿了，那么这东西就无法满足你的饥饿。
It may for a little while, and then you have to take another step of like, okay, losing and winning is now done.
可能会持续一段时间，然后你必须采取另一步，好吧，输赢现在已经完成了。
Right?
对吗？
And I think you've gone through that.
我想你已经经历过了。
I can hear it in your words, and people can probably hear it too.
我能从你的话中听出这一点，人们可能也能听出来。
The way that probably at some point in your life, being a tenured professor, I don't know why, that is the thing that people are the lustiest for in the world that I think we come from.
可能在你生命中的某个时刻，作为一名终身教授，我不知道为什么，这就是我认为我们来自的世界上人们最渴望的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It felt good to get.
得到的感觉很好。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I won't lie, it felt good to get at a place like Stanford.
我不会撒谎，能进入斯坦福这样的地方感觉很好。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Even though there are many fantastic-
尽管有很多精彩——
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and extremely challenging places to achieve that.
以及实现这一目标的极具挑战性的地方。
It felt like the culmination of 20 years of very hard work that I enjoyed, but that it represented an important milestone for me.
这感觉就像我享受 20 年辛勤工作的顶峰，但它对我来说代表了一个重要的里程碑。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I knew, I'll just say, and of course, we're talking about this example, but hopefully, people are thinking about examples in their own lives, but I knew, for instance, I never want to be a department chair.
但我知道，我只想说，当然，我们正在谈论这个例子，但希望人们能够思考自己生活中的例子，但我知道，例如，我从来不想成为系主任。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Tons of work, doing administrative stuff.
大量的工作，做行政工作。
I remember when they told me, "You'll be vice chair," and I'm like, "Oh my goodness.
我记得当他们告诉我，“你将成为副主席，”我说，“哦，天哪。
What do I have to do to avoid that?"
我必须做什么才能避免这种情况？”
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I also knew that I didn't care about being a member of the National Academy.
我也知道我并不关心成为国家科学院的成员。
A close childhood friend of mine was just elected to the National Academy of Sciences.
我的一位儿时好友刚刚当选为美国国家科学院院士。
We've been friends since we were seven, and I'm so happy for him because he's doing exactly what he loves, but I never aspired to be a member of the National Academy, ever.
我们从七岁开始就是朋友，我为他感到高兴，因为他正在做他喜欢的事情，但我从来没有渴望成为国家学院的成员。
Why?
为什么？
Because what came after tenure in order to go there was a divergence from what I really wanted to do.
因为在获得终身教职后去那里所做的事情与我真正想做的事情背道而驰。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So I think this is the key thing about the roadmap, right?
所以我认为这是路线图的关键，对吧？
So we get conditioned by our sense organs.
所以我们受到我们的感觉器官的制约。
So just to keep it super practical, if you're trying to figure out what you should do, is this coming from my sense organs?
所以为了保持超级实用，如果你想弄清楚你应该做什么，这是来自我的感觉器官吗？
If your sense organ triggers something that's always been within you, so if you see a frog, and you really want to be interested, you want to figure out how the frog works.
如果你的感觉器官触发了你体内一直存在的东西，那么如果你看到一只青蛙，并且你真的很感兴趣，你就会想弄清楚青蛙是如何工作的。
But the interesting thing about the difference between the sense organ thing and an internal drive is your internal drive will find multiple objects in the outside world.
但感觉器官和内部驱动力之间的区别有趣的是，你的内部驱动力会在外部世界中发现多个物体。
Right?
对吗？
So first it was biology, then it was frogs.
所以首先是生物学，然后是青蛙。
Now it's neuro-ophthalmology.
现在是神经眼科。
Now it's this.
现在是这个了。
So I don't know if this kind of makes sense.
所以我不知道这样的做法是否有意义。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
The drive is always the same, and it'll encounter different things in the world.
驱动力总是一样的，它会遇到世界上不同的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes.
是的。
What is that drive?
那个驱动是什么？
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
We'll get to that in a second.
我们稍后会讨论这个问题。
Okay?
好的？
So first thing practically is if you're trying to figure out what should I do, first ask yourself how have you been conditioned by social media?
因此，实际上，如果您想弄清楚我应该做什么，首先要问自己，社交媒体对您的影响如何？
Move away from that.
远离那个。
Second thing is be careful about any comparisons you make.
第二件事是要小心你所做的任何比较。
Any motivation that you have because of a comparison, it can lead to success.
任何因比较而产生的动力都可以带来成功。
You can be successful, but you won't be happy.
你可以成功，但你不会快乐。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Because it's so annoying, right?
因为这太烦人了，对吧？
I work with a lot of influencers and YouTubers and stuff, and so it's like, "Oh, we want our first million." And if you're not careful, the moment that you get your first million, you want a second million, and then you want a third million.
我和很多有影响力的人、YouTuber 之类的人一起工作，所以就像是，“哦，我们想要我们的第一个一百万。”如果你不小心，当你得到第一个一百万的时候，你就想要第二个一百万，然后你想要第三个一百万。
And then it's even scarier, right?
然后就更可怕了，对吧？
So like, "Oh, I got three million subscribers.
就像，“哦，我有三百万订阅者。
That's awesome." But then you know what's really terrifying, Andrew?
太棒了。”但你知道什么才是真正可怕的吗，安德鲁？
Is the guy who started after me is getting followers faster than I'm getting them.
在我之后开始的人获得关注者的速度比我获得的速度快吗？
Right?
正确的？
And so the ego is never going to be satisfied.
所以自我永远不会满足。
The ego, by its nature, is comparative.
就其本质而言，自我是比较性的。
And even if you're number one, people think the most anxious people I've ever worked with, not actually true, but-
即使你是第一，人们也会认为我曾经共事过的最焦虑的人，这实际上不是真的，但是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Among them.
其中。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Is people who get to the top, and you think that you're done.
是那些到达顶峰的人，而你认为你已经完成了。
You're not done.
你还没有完成。
Then you're looking behind you at all of the people who are younger, harder working, have the benefit of AI tools, have the benefit of the path that you have carved, who are catching up on you and will overtake you soon enough.
然后你会看到你身后所有更年轻、工作更努力、受益于人工智能工具、受益于你所开辟的道路的人，他们正在追赶你，很快就会超越你。
So one good example of why we compare is the more you are judged, the more your ego grows, and the more you will compare.
因此，我们进行比较的一个很好的例子是，你受到的评判越多，你的自我意识就越强，你就越会比较。
Right?
正确的？
So this is almost like we're taught how to...
所以这几乎就像我们被教导如何...
When people judge us, we judge ourselves, and we get judged based on ranking.
当人们评判我们时，我们也在评判自己，而我们是根据排名来评判的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
And so this is what we see on the internet.
这就是我们在互联网上看到的。
As social media, as we start to get judged more and more and more, we become more and more narcissistic.
作为社交媒体，当我们开始受到越来越多的评判时，我们变得越来越自恋。
This is the narcissistic defense that tries to protect us from judgment.
这是一种自恋式的防御，试图保护我们免受评判。
And so it's happening to everybody, and it's escalating.
所以这种情况发生在每个人身上，而且还在不断升级。
The rate at which it's happening, people are more egotistical than they've ever been.
以这种情况发生的速度，人们比以往任何时候都更加自私。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you think that's especially true for people who have large followings on social media?
您认为对于在社交媒体上拥有大量追随者的人来说尤其如此吗？
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
So I work with influencers and was so curious about the work that I was doing that I tried to develop a program.
因此，我与有影响力的人一起工作，并且对我正在做的工作非常好奇，因此我尝试开发一个程序。
So we now have a creator coaching program where we're collecting data about whether it's effective or not.
因此，我们现在有一个创作者辅导计划，我们正在收集有关该计划是否有效的数据。
And so the really interesting thing is I think it's a unique effect on our psychology.
所以真正有趣的是我认为这对我们的心理有独特的影响。
The closest thing is a lot of celebrities are really messed up, and that's because they have so many eyes on them.
最接近的是，很多明星真的很乱，那是因为他们有太多的目光盯着他们。
And people don't realize, just as a simple example, the brain just doesn't think probabilistically.
人们没有意识到，就像一个简单的例子一样，大脑并不以概率的方式思考。
So you can have 1,000 people love the work that you do, but all it takes is one person who's really nasty.
所以你可以让 1,000 个人喜欢你所做的工作，但只需要一个人真的很讨厌。
That is what your brain is going to focus on.
这就是你的大脑将关注的事情。
It's going to highlight.
它将突出显示。
It's amazing.
太棒了。
I can be looking at chat that is scrolling during livestreaming.
我可以在直播期间查看正在滚动的聊天内容。
There are messages that are faster than I can read, but if someone says something that is dangerous, my mind will flag it.
有些消息的速度比我阅读的速度要快，但如果有人说了一些危险的话，我的大脑就会标记它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Right?
对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's like a predator on the horizon.
它就像地平线上的掠食者。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
So we have these circuits which were designed to look at a jungle and see a single pair of tiger's eyes.
因此，我们设计了这些电路来观察丛林并看到一对虎眼。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
And so the danger scanning mechanism ...
所以危险扫描机制......
makes it so that the bigger that you get and the more eyes that are on you, the more paranoid you have to be, the more narcissistic you will have to become.
使得你变得越大，关注你的目光越多，你就会变得越偏执，你就会变得越自恋。
Because when someone turns to you and says, "You are ugly.
因为当有人转向你说：“你很丑。
You are stupid," in order to defend against that, you have to say, "No, I'm not.
你很蠢，”为了防御这一点，你必须说，“不，我不是。
I am beautiful.
我很美丽。
I am intelligent." And the more times that you say that to yourself, this is where things get complicated, but that doesn't result in confidence.
我很聪明。”你对自己说的次数越多，事情就会变得复杂，但这并不会带来自信。
So I don't know if this makes sense, but if you are confident, you don't need to say that I'm smart or that I'm beautiful.
所以我不知道这是否有道理，但是如果你有自信，你就不需要说我聪明或者我漂亮。
Does that kind of make sense?
这样有道理吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What about the to each their own mindset?
每个人自己的心态又如何呢？
Some people will like the content.
有些人会喜欢这些内容。
I tell myself this.
我这样告诉自己。
Some people will like the content and the way I frame it, and will look at it on the whole, some episodes more than others, certain things, and others won't.
有些人会喜欢内容和我构建它的方式，并会从整体上看待它，有些情节比其他情节更重要，某些事物，而另一些则不会。
They'll hate it for whatever reason, or hate me for whatever reason, and I'm okay with that.
他们会出于任何原因讨厌它，或者出于任何原因讨厌我，我对此表示同意。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So I think you're doing a really important thing, which is a key takeaway.
所以我认为你正在做一件非常重要的事情，这是一个关键的收获。
So when someone dislikes what you do, you think about them and not you.
因此，当有人不喜欢你所做的事情时，你会考虑他们而不是你自己。
That's the opposite of ego, right?
这与自我相反，对吧？
So if we take someone who's very narcissistic and they receive a criticism, they say, "No, no, no, I'm great." Right?
因此，如果我们找一个非常自恋的人，当他们受到批评时，他们会说：“不，不，不，我很棒。”正确的？
So this is where literally, I don't know if this is too abstract, but I'll give kind of maybe a simpler example of this.
所以从字面上看，我不知道这是否太抽象，但我会给出一个可能更简单的例子。
So I trained in Boston, and there was a lot of K2 use.
所以我在波士顿训练，那里有很多K2的使用。
So K2 is synthetic marijuana.
所以K2是合成大麻。
And so sometimes you walk into the emergency room, there's a dude who's high on meth or high on K2.
所以有时你走进急诊室，会发现一个家伙服用了冰毒或维生素K2。
He's just saying all kinds of terrible things.
他只是在说各种可怕的话。
That has nothing to do with me.
那与我无关。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Right?
对吗？
And the way that you framed some people are going to like what you do and some people are not going to like what you do, that's on them.
你塑造的方式有些人会喜欢你所做的事情，有些人不会喜欢你所做的事情，这取决于他们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
So if we want to step away from the ego, we have to understand that don't take it personally.
因此，如果我们想摆脱自我，我们就必须明白，不要把它视为针对个人的。
Literally, that's the colloquial phrase, right?
从字面上看，这就是口语短语，对吗？
But it's hard to do.
但这很难做到。
So if you're someone at home trying to figure out, "Okay, how do I connect with my true self?
因此，如果您在家中想弄清楚：“好吧，我如何与真实的自我联系？
How do I step away from my ego?" Notice your reaction to criticism.
我该如何摆脱我的自我？”注意你对批评的反应。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Is your reaction of criticism, are you actually being empathic?
你对批评的反应，你真的有同理心吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Right?
对吗？
So what empathic really means is are you putting yourself in someone else's shoes?
那么同理心的真正含义是你是否设身处地为别人着想？
And the other person, hey, maybe not everybody likes pineapple on pizza.
另一个人，嘿，也许不是每个人都喜欢披萨上的菠萝。
Or are you taking it personally?
还是你个人认为？
Do their insults determine your value as a human being?
他们的侮辱决定了你作为人的价值吗？
And the moment that that starts to happen, the friction that you're talking about, which can be so fun, becomes torture, because now you have to make them happy.
一旦这种情况开始发生，你所说的摩擦可能很有趣，却变成了折磨，因为现在你必须让他们快乐。
In order to feel good about yourself, you have to make the people around you happy.
为了自我感觉良好，你必须让周围的人快乐。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So interesting.
太有趣了。
I think some of us grew up or somehow internalized the idea that if somebody is angry or is criticizing us, and it's being delivered in a certain way, that it must be true, versus the ability to just really step back and assess, "No, it could very well be they're in a bad mood.
我认为我们中的一些人在成长过程中或以某种方式内化了这样的想法：如果有人生气或批评我们，并且以某种方式表达出来，那么这一定是真的，而不是真正退后一步并评估的能力，“不，很可能是他们心情不好。
They didn't sleep well." I grew up in a community of academics.
他们睡得不好。”我在一个学术社区中长大。
Some athletes, mostly academics.
一些运动员，大部分是学者。
So everyone around me wasn't necessarily hyperverbal, but you know this from training in Boston.
所以我周围的每个人都不一定言语过多，但你从波士顿的训练中就知道这一点。
There was a way of delivering a criticism that felt like a poison dart-
有一种批评的方式就像毒镖一样——
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that would get right to the heart of it without calling somebody a name.
这将直击问题的核心，而无需直呼某人的名字。
This is actually a very prized skill in academia and medicine.
这实际上是学术界和医学界非常珍贵的技能。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think it's one of the more sinister aspects of higher education and medicine.
我认为这是高等教育和医学更险恶的方面之一。
But it exists in every field.
但它存在于各个领域。
But people aren't going to say, "Oh, dude, that was stupid." They're going to find a way to kind of thread that heat-seeking missile, right?
但人们不会说：“哦，伙计，那太愚蠢了。”他们会找到一种方法来连接热寻导弹，对吧？
And I think that sometimes getting to this thing about emotion versus language, the more primitive the expression, the "I hate you.
我认为有时在涉及情感与语言的问题时，表达方式越原始，“我恨你。
F you," it's easier, like you said with the person in the clinic on K2, it's easier to say, "They're crazy.
F 你，”这更容易，就像你对 K2 诊所里的人说的那样，更容易说，“他们疯了。
They're on drugs.
他们吸毒了。
They are ill." But when something is delivered in a way that's very articulate or calm, we tend to give it more credit as likely to be true.
他们病了。”但当某件事以一种非常清晰或冷静的方式表达出来时，我们往往会更加相信它可能是真实的。
So on the internet, I see most of what comes at me that's negative as, I like to think there's also learning there, but the way it's delivered, the way I've noticed things get past my force field is I go, "Oh, wait, wait, wait." They'll say a PubMed ID.
所以在互联网上，我看到的大部分都是负面的，因为我喜欢认为那里也有学习，但是它的传递方式，我注意到事情超出了我的力场的方式是我说，“哦，等等，等等，等等。”他们会说 PubMed ID。
"You don't know what you're talking about." They'll give me a PubMed.
“你不知道自己在说什么。”他们会给我考研。
Then I'll go to the paper, I'm like, "That actually doesn't say that." But in my mind, I thought, "Oh my goodness, I must have screwed up," right?
然后我会去看报纸，我想，“实际上并没有这么说。”但在我心里，我想：“天哪，我一定搞砸了，”对吧？
They're not just telling me I'm wrong.
他们不只是告诉我我错了。
They're telling me that I'm wrong-
他们告诉我我错了-
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Okay
好的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because of something on the Library of Congress PubMed.
因为国会图书馆 PubMed 上的一些东西。
So do you see what I'm saying?
那么你明白我在说什么吗？
So I think that knowing what our fences are good at filtering and not good at filtering is hard.
所以我认为，要知道我们的栅栏擅长过滤什么，不擅长过滤什么是很难的。
It takes time.
这需要时间。
It takes years to cultivate.
需要多年的培育。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No?
没有？
I would hope that it could be quicker, but it took me, excuse me, it took me many years to cultivate it.
我希望它能快一点，但是我花了很多时间，对不起，我花了很多年才培养它。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Let's just understand.
让我们简单了解一下。
So it's hard to cultivate.
所以很难培养。
It took years for you to cultivate because you didn't have a teacher.
你修了好几年，因为你没有老师。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Right?
对吗？
So let's be a bit precise here.
所以让我们在这里说得更精确一些。
And this is the key thing, so I hope people are following this because this is how you develop.
这是关键的事情，所以我希望人们能够遵循这一点，因为这就是你的发展方式。
So one of my colleagues in residency talked about this concept of a Teflon Buddha, right?
所以我的一位驻院同事谈到了特氟龙佛陀的概念，对吧？
This idea of being impervious.
这种不透水的想法。
So how do you become psychologically impervious?
那么怎样才能做到心理上不受影响呢？
And what you're talking about when you say a heat-seeking missile, your linguistic cortex is doing wonders.
当你说热寻导弹时，你的语言皮层正在创造奇迹。
Because a poison dart, right?
因为毒镖，对吧？
What they're doing, the reason it's so effective, Andrew, is not just because of the anger.
安德鲁，他们所做的事情之所以如此有效，不仅仅是因为愤怒。
We'll get to the anger in a second, but they are figuring out where your weak point is.
我们马上就会谈到愤怒，但他们正在找出你的弱点在哪里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
And they're attacking that weak point.
他们正在攻击这个弱点。
It's not about the size of the missile, it's about the precision.
这与导弹的大小无关，而与精度有关。
Even in your language, you are talking about a precise attack.
即使用你们的语言，你们也在谈论精确的攻击。
So that precision is in academia, people are really good at detecting other people's vulnerabilities, and they go for the nuts, right?
因此，学术界的精确度很高，人们真的很擅长发现别人的弱点，而且他们会疯狂，对吗？
That's what they do.
这就是他们所做的。
Psychologically, they go for the nuts.
从心理上来说，他们追求坚果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
And there's all kinds of other things going on here, but let's be simple.
这里还发生了各种各样的其他事情，但让我们简单一点。
So it is when someone has a high anger attack, okay, this means their amygdala is through the roof.
所以当某人的愤怒程度很高时，好吧，这意味着他们的杏仁核已经突破了屋顶。
So they are thinking in black and white.
所以他们的思维是黑白分明的。
Their attack is in black and white.
他们的攻击是黑白分明的。
A black and white attack is easier to repel because it's not nuanced.
黑白攻击更容易被击退，因为它不细致入微。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Okay?
好吧？
So when someone is angry, you're right, it is easier to dismiss their anger.
所以当有人生气时，你是对的，更容易消除他们的愤怒。
And you are also correct that-- But it's almost like a f-- Everything you said is correct, but I'd say the model that you're assuming is that these are two opposite things.
你也是对的--但这几乎就像是--你所说的一切都是正确的，但我想说你假设的模型是这是两个相反的事情。
They're not.
他们不是。
The other thing is, so when someone is not angry, they are not black and white.
另一件事是，所以当一个人不生气时，他们就不是非黑即白的。
If they're not black and white, it is not easy to dismiss.
如果它们不是黑白分明的，就不容易忽视。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Just because it's not black and white, that doesn't activate your anger.
仅仅因为它不是黑白分明的，就不会激起你的愤怒。
It doesn't activate your black and white thinking, right?
它不会激活你的非黑即白的思维，对吗？
So when someone is coming at me angry, my empathic circuits are going to activate my own amygdala.
因此，当有人对我生气时，我的共情回路就会激活我自己的杏仁核。
I'm going to get angry back.
我又要生气了
"You did this." "No, I didn't." Right?
“你做到了。” “不，我没有。”正确的？
So the most psychotic denial, or delusional denial, that's a better word.
因此，“最精神病性的否认”或“妄想性的否认”，这是一个更好的词。
The most delusional denial that you'll ever hear is when someone's angry.
你所听到的最妄想性的否认是当某人生气时。
"No, I didn't do that.
“不，我没有那样做。
I never did that.
我从来没有这样做过。
I never did that.
我从来没有这样做过。
I never did that.
我从来没有这样做过。
I never." And they can believe it because that's what happens.
我从来没有。”他们可以相信，因为事情就是这样发生的。
The amygdala makes your thinking black and white.
杏仁核让你的思维变得黑白分明。
When we have adrenaline collapsing or running through our system, it collapses peripheral vision down to a 30-degree cone.
当肾上腺素崩溃或流过我们的系统时，周边视力就会下降到 30 度圆锥形。
So we can only see this thing.
所以我们只能看到这个东西。
So this is the first element of why heat-seeking missiles work.
所以这是热寻导弹工作原理的第一个要素。
When they come at you angry, you're going to get angry.
当他们对你生气时，你也会生气。
If you're going to get angry, it doesn't matter if they're right, doesn't matter if they're wrong, you're going to say, "No, it's incorrect." Doesn't matter the truth of it.
如果你要生气，不管他们是对是错，你都会说：“不，这是错误的。”事实真相并不重要。
So this is the first element of it, right?
所以这是它的第一个元素，对吧？
So is that they don't approach you, they approach you in an articulate way.
所以他们不会接近你，而是以一种清晰的方式接近你。
When they approach you in an articulate way, it doesn't activate your amygdala.
当他们以清晰的方式接近你时，它不会激活你的杏仁核。
It does in a different way.
它以不同的方式起作用。
But then the issue is their finesse.
但问题是他们的技巧。
And you said a poison dart, really interesting imagery.
你说的是毒镖，非常有趣的图像。
It's something that hurts a little bit and then flows through your veins.
这是一种有点痛，然后流过你的血管的东西。
So I can even imagine when they said that PubMed ID, your first thought was, "Not a big deal.
所以我什至可以想象，当他们说 PubMed ID 时，你的第一个想法是，“没什么大不了的。
I know my shit." And then the poison goes into your mind.
我知道我的狗屎。”然后毒就会进入你的头脑。
"Well, maybe I don't know my stuff.
“好吧，也许我不知道我的事。
Oh my God, what if there is a paper that I missed?
天哪，如果我漏掉了一篇论文怎么办？
What if there is something that I..." And then that injury will grow in your mind.
如果我有什么事情……”然后这种伤害就会在你的脑海中加深。
And so all of your-- And this is the stuff, right?
所以你们所有人——这就是重点，对吧？
The stuff that hurts us when people insult us, what hurts are the things we believe about ourself.
当人们侮辱我们时，伤害我们的是我们对自己的看法。
We all have these doubts because we're not perfect human beings, because we make mistakes.
我们都有这些疑虑，因为我们不是完美的人，因为我们会犯错误。
And when someone figures out, "Oh my God, this is this person's weak point." And the really scary thing is that humans have evolved to do this.
当有人发现“天哪，这就是这个人的弱点。”真正可怕的是人类已经进化到可以做到这一点。
All you have to do is go to any recess in the fifth grade, and kids will figure out what hurts, and then they will say it to you again and again and again and again.
你所要做的就是在五年级的任何课间休息时，孩子们都会弄清楚什么是伤害，然后他们会一遍又一遍地对你说。
But I think it's really important to remember, if something hurts, that's your own insecurity.
但我认为记住这一点非常重要，如果有什么事情让你受伤，那是你自己的不安全感。
And insecurity, remember, if you say, "I am a loser.
还有不安全感，请记住，如果你说：“我是一个失败者。
I am fat.
我很胖。
I am ugly," those are all part of your ego.
我很丑，”这些都是你自我的一部分。
So there are certain things that you can do, and this goes back to the what is that voice on the inside?
所以你可以做一些事情，这又回到了内心的声音是什么？
So this is where in the Eastern system, there is a self beyond the mind.
所以这就是东方体系中存在超越心灵的自我的地方。
So the mind is not what you are.
所以头脑不是你的本质。
The mind is an organ that you can observe in the same way that you can observe your hand.
头脑是一个器官，你可以像观察你的手一样观察它。
In the same way that your hand can change, your mind can change.
就像你的手可以改变一样，你的想法也可以改变。
Your mind changes every day.
你的想法每天都在变化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's the best way to learn to observe one's mind?
学习观察自心的最佳方法是什么？
Is it meditation?
是冥想吗？
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Probably the best way to observe your mind is actually psychotherapy.
也许观察你的思想的最好方法实际上是心理治疗。
You'll get better insight into your mind there.
在那里你会更好地洞察自己的想法。
But if you want to move beyond mind, and I don't mean that in like a, "Oh, let's move beyond mind." What I mean is that if you look at your experience of existence, there is more to you than thoughts, emotions, and ego.
但如果你想超越头脑，我的意思并不是说，“哦，让我们超越头脑。”我的意思是，如果你审视你的存在体验，你就会发现，除了思想、情感和自我之外，还有更多东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
And so if you want to get to that and step outside of your ego, meditation is the best thing for that.
因此，如果你想做到这一点并走出你的自我，冥想是最好的选择。
And there are lots of studies that suggest that meditation shuts off the default mode network.
有很多研究表明冥想会关闭默认模式网络。
Default mode network is our sense of self.
默认模式网络是我们的自我意识。
There are also many studies that show that you can predict the therapeutic benefit of a psychedelic trip based on an ego death experience.
还有许多研究表明，你可以根据自我死亡经历来预测迷幻之旅的治疗效果。
So if someone has an ego death experience when they're using psychedelics, there is a greater likelihood that they heal from it, which has to do with deactivation of the default mode network.
因此，如果有人在使用迷幻药时有过自我死亡的经历，那么他们治愈的可能性就更大，这与默认模式网络的停用有关。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When you say psychedelics, are there particular psychedelics that tend to promote ego death more than others?
当你说迷幻药时，是否有特定的迷幻药比其他迷幻药更容易促进自我死亡？
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
I don't know the answer to that question, but I would say that most of the studies that I've seen are in psilocybin.
我不知道这个问题的答案，但我想说的是，我所看到的大多数研究都是针对裸盖菇素的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
But that's just because there are more studies on psilocybin, I think.
但我认为，这只是因为对裸盖菇素的研究更多。
Arguably, MDMA will do it too because MDMA is an empathogen and will help people form bonds and kind of changes their perception of the self, right?
可以说，摇头丸也会这样做，因为摇头丸是一种移情剂，会帮助人们建立联系并改变他们对自我的看法，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
So meditation is the best way to dissolve your ego.
所以冥想是消除自我的最好方法。
Like that, I believe.
就这样，我相信。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。
Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.
去年，在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我成为了 Function 成员。
Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health.
Function 提供 100 多项高级实验室测试，为您提供整个身体健康状况的关键快照。
This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health ...
这张快照为您提供有关心脏健康、激素健康的见解......
immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more.
免疫功能、营养水平等等。
They've also recently added tests for toxins, such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics, and tests for PFAS, or forever chemicals.
他们最近还增加了毒素测试，例如有害塑料中的 BPA 暴露，以及 PFAS 或永久化学物质的测试。
Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas.
Function 不仅提供对您的身心健康至关重要的 100 多种生物标记物的测试，而且还分析这些结果并提供相关领域专家的顶级医生的见解。
For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood.
例如，在我第一次使用 Function 进行测试时，我发现我的血液中汞含量升高。
Function not only helped me detect that but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, N-acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification.
功能不仅帮助我发现了这一点，还提供了如何最好地降低汞含量的见解，其中包括限制我的金枪鱼消费，我一直在吃大量金枪鱼，同时还努力多吃绿叶蔬菜并补充 NAC、N-乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都可以支持谷胱甘肽的产生和解毒。
And I should say, by taking a second Function test, that approach worked.
我应该说，通过进行第二次功能测试，这种方法奏效了。
Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important.
全面的血液检测至关重要。
There's so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test.
有很多与您的心理和身体健康相关的事情只能通过血液检查来检测。
The problem is, blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated.
问题是，血液检测一直非常昂贵且复杂。
In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost.
相比之下，Function 的简单性和成本水平给我留下了深刻的印象。
It is very affordable.
这是非常实惠的。
As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.
因此，我决定加入他们的科学顾问委员会，我很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。
If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Function，可以访问 functionhealth.com/huberman。
Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman Podcast listeners.
Function 目前有超过 250,000 人的等候名单，但他们正在为 Huberman 播客听众提供早期访问服务。
Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.
同样，可以通过 functionhealth.com/huberman 提前访问 Function。
Meditation, potentially in a safe clinical setting, maybe exploring ego dissolution through psychedelics, although they're still Schedule I drugs, so we have to-
冥想，可能在安全的临床环境中，也许可以通过致幻剂探索自我消解，尽管它们仍然是一级药物，所以我们必须-
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
have to be thoughtful in how-
必须深思熟虑如何——
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I communicate this, not just to protect myself, but-
我传达这一点，不仅仅是为了保护自己，而是——
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
No
否
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to protect other people.
保护其他人。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know we both-
我知道我们俩——
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
I normally say that.
我一般都会这么说。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
But yeah.
但是是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I always just raise it just to be clear what we're talking about.
我总是提出这个问题只是为了弄清楚我们在说什么。
I understood your position on that.
我理解你对此的立场。
The thing inside that we know is our true heart's desire, that allows us to navigate the external pressures and the roles, these ego labels that we've given ourselves and that others have given us.
我们内心所知道的是我们内心真正的渴望，它使我们能够驾驭外部压力和角色，这些我们给自己和别人给我们的自我标签。
Do you know any practices to help cultivate being in touch with that?
您知道有哪些实践可以帮助培养对此的联系吗？
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
So the meditation that I like the most for this kind of thing is meditations around something called shunya.
因此，对于这种事情，我最喜欢的冥想是围绕一种叫做“顺也”的东西的冥想。
Shunya means void.
舜耶的意思是空虚。
So if you really look at all of the attributes of you, right?
所以如果你真的看看你的所有属性，对吗？
So I'm a man, I'm a husband, I'm a son, whatever, boyfriend.
所以我是一个男人，我是一个丈夫，我是一个儿子，无论如何，男朋友。
All of those things are qualities.
所有这些都是品质。
Even a loser is that presence of something, right?
即使是失败者也是有某种存在的，对吧？
I'm a loser.
我是一个失败者。
I'm pathetic.
我很可怜。
That is the existence of a negative thing, a negative valence thing.
那就是负的东西、负价的东西的存在。
So if you really look at what you are, imagine, Andrew, for a moment, this is going to be hard, but imagine that you only existed for 10 seconds.
所以，如果你真正审视自己，想象一下，安德鲁，这会很难，但想象一下你只存在了 10 秒钟。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
What would you be?
你会是什么？
You'd be almost nothing, right?
你几乎什么都不是，对吧？
You just-
你只是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
...
...
get this flash of experience, but you have no narrative identity.
获得这种闪现的体验，但你没有叙事身份。
You have no sense of self.
你没有自我意识。
All you are is just a raw receiver of an experience.
你只是一种体验的原始接受者。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
And I sometimes empathize with a child when they're first being born, that first shock of awareness, and you don't know what the hell is going on, and you start crying, right?
有时我会同情孩子刚出生的时候，第一次意识冲击，你不知道到底发生了什么，然后你开始哭泣，对吧？
You have no idea who you are, what you are.
你不知道你是谁，你是什么。
You're just a chunk of receiving.
你只是接收的一部分。
So there are shunya practices which allow you to connect with the void within you, and the void within us is actually the most basic part of what we are.
因此，有一些顺雅练习可以让你与内在的空虚联系起来，而我们内在的空虚实际上是我们最基本的部分。
It's actually what's at the bottom.
其实就是最底层的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
And so there are some ways to sort of understand what this is.
所以有一些方法可以理解这是什么。
So if you think about watching a beautiful sunset, and you cease to exist.
所以，如果你想到观看美丽的日落，你就不再存在了。
You're just soaking in the sunset.
你只是沐浴在夕阳下。
You don't have any thoughts.
你没有任何想法。
You don't have any worries.
你不用担心。
It feels incredibly peaceful, right?
感觉非常平静，对吧？
And you are there.
你就在那里。
You're not comatose, but you don't have a personhood in that moment.
你没有昏迷，但那一刻你没有人格。
Another really great example of this is if you really need to pee, and you're waiting to use the bathroom, and then finally you get your turn.
另一个很好的例子是，如果你真的需要小便，而你正在等待上厕所，最后轮到你了。
The moment you start peeing, you cease to exist, whether you've got mortgages or you need to get a Valentine's Day present, or you have to do this, you have all those thoughts.
当你开始撒尿的那一刻，你就不再存在了，无论你有抵押贷款还是你需要得到情人节礼物，或者你必须这样做，你都会有这些想法。
You are just there as a nothing.
你只是在那里，一无所有。
So these shunya practices are a little bit-- You have to do them with a little bit more caution.
所以这些顺雅修法有点——你必须更加小心地去做。
There's some introductory practices.
有一些入门实践。
One example is if you close your eyes for a moment, this is going to sound kind of weird, but where do you feel your body?
一个例子是，如果你闭上眼睛一会儿，这听起来有点奇怪，但你感觉到你的身体在哪里？
So think about proprioception, right?
那么想想本体感觉，对吧？
So pay attention to your arms-
所以要注意你的手臂——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
...
...
your head, your nose.
你的头，你的鼻子。
So what I want you to do is focus on the area of the solar plexus, and look for an absence of feeling there.
所以我想让你把注意力集中在太阳神经丛区域，寻找那里没有感觉的情况。
As you breathe in and out, you can feel your ribcage expand.
当您吸气和呼气时，您可以感觉到胸腔扩张。
Maybe you can feel your heartbeat.
也许你能感觉到你的心跳。
But if you really pay attention to just the area of solar plexus, there's going to be a feeling of emptiness.
但如果你真的只关注太阳神经丛区域，就会有一种空虚的感觉。
And so as you meditate upon that, you'll get closer to shunya.
当你冥想这一点时，你就会更接近顺也。
The other really interesting, easy way to get a taste of shunya is close your eyes.
另一种真正有趣、简单的体验舜雅的方法是闭上眼睛。
I want you to breathe in, and then breathe out, and then when you're ready, breathe in again.
我希望你吸气，然后呼气，然后当你准备好时，再次吸气。
And when you're ready, breathe out.
当你准备好后，呼气。
Just breathe nice and slow.
只要呼吸顺畅就好。
And now what I want you to do is pay attention to the time between breaths.
现在我要你做的是注意呼吸之间的时间。
Between your breaths, you will have stillness.
在你的呼吸之间，你会保持平静。
Not during the breathing.
不是在呼吸的时候。
During the breathing, you exist.
在呼吸期间，你存在。
Inhalation, exhalation.
吸气、呼气。
But in between exhalation and inhalation, there's a very beautiful stillness For people who are having trouble feeling that, I love this because there's an interesting cognitive technique.
但在呼气和吸气之间，有一种非常美丽的静止，对于那些感觉不到这种静止的人来说，我喜欢它，因为这是一种有趣的认知技巧。
Catch the moment where inhalation becomes exhalation.
抓住吸气变成呼气的那一刻。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
In your normal breathing, not absence of breathing, because you're normally breathing in and out, in and out, in and out.
在你正常的呼吸中，而不是没有呼吸，因为你通常在吸气和呼气，吸气和呼气，吸气和呼气。
Catch the moment where one becomes the other.
抓住一个人变成另一个人的那一刻。
That'll help you find shunya.
这会帮助你找到舜雅。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And shunya is defined as the void.
而空也被定义为空。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Void.
无效。
It's also zero.
也是零。
Emptiness.
空虚。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
There's no thought of roles or anything else when that-
那时就没有考虑角色或其他任何事情——
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
And here's the beautiful thing.
这就是美丽的事情。
Once you find shunya, you can go into it.
一旦找到了顺也，就可以进去了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
So it's like as you practice this, right?
就像你练习这个一样，对吧？
So I'm sure that there's some neuroplasticity going on where your brain is wiring, and then when bad things happen to you, it's a flowing happening to my body, it's happening to my mind.
所以我确信你的大脑连接处正在发生一些神经可塑性，然后当坏事发生在你身上时，它就会发生在我的身体上，它也会发生在我的思想上。
In here, there's nothing.
这里，什么都没有。
So I tested this when my dad passed away.
所以当我父亲去世时我测试了这个。
So I remember going to the funeral and seeing his body.
所以我记得去参加葬礼并看到他的尸体。
I remember touching his skin, his face, and shocked at how cold he was.
我记得触摸他的皮肤、他的脸，对他的寒冷感到震惊。
It was my dad, but he's like ice.
那是我的父亲，但他就像冰一样。
And so I was grieving, and I was sad, and I was crying, but I was like, "Is that thing still there?" And I found that thing was there, and I felt at peace.
所以我很悲伤，我很伤心，我在哭，但我想，“那东西还在那里吗？”我发现那东西就在那里，我感到很平静。
It is the mind that is sad, but I'm not sad.
悲伤的是心灵，但我并不悲伤。
The body is grieving, but I'm not grieving.
身体在悲伤，但我并不悲伤。
That's really what I am.
我确实就是这样的。
That's just emotion.
那只是情感。
It's not really me.
这不是真正的我。
When we become identified with our emotion, right?
当我们认同我们的情感时，对吗？
When we're going through a breakup and we're like, "Oh my God," I become sadness.
当我们分手时，我们会说“天啊”，我变得悲伤。
I become sadness incarnate.
我成为悲伤的化身。
But then when you step away from sadness, when you are watching sadness from the outside, it can actually be wonderful, and that's why we like sad movies.
但当你远离悲伤，当你从外面观看悲伤时，它实际上是美妙的，这就是为什么我们喜欢悲伤电影。
We feel sad, but we feel great.
我们感到悲伤，但我们感觉很棒。
The difference is, are you the sadness, or are you watching the sadness?
区别在于，你是在悲伤，还是在观看悲伤？
And what is doing the watching?
观看的目的是什么？
Because the sadness is in the mind.
因为悲伤就在心里。
There's something outside of the mind observing it.
头脑之外有某种东西在观察它。
That shunya will help you find that thing.
那个舜也会帮你找到那个东西。
And that's how you become-- That's the core of resilience.
这就是你成为的样子——这就是韧性的核心。
So when I work with these influencers who are being stalked and just no matter what they do, someone is there unhappy with it, right?
因此，当我与这些被跟踪的有影响力的人一起工作时，无论他们做什么，总会有人对此不满意，对吧？
Because you're talking about the internet where there are literally people out there who are delusional, who are projecting all kinds of stuff onto you.
因为你谈论的是互联网，那里确实有人有妄想症，他们将各种东西投射到你身上。
They've never met you, Andrew.
他们从未见过你，安德鲁。
And then they say that you're the incarnate of evil.
然后他们说你是邪恶的化身。
And how are they making that-- They're living in a corner of the internet.
他们是如何做到的——他们生活在互联网的一个角落。
And so in order to withstand that, in order to withstand the judgment, in order to withstand the poison darts, right?
所以为了承受那个，为了承受审判，为了承受毒镖，对吗？
The interesting thing, if you want to be impervious to the poison dart, is you are inside.
有趣的是，如果你想不受毒镖的影响，你就在里面。
The poison dart hits your ego, it hits your body, and the poison flows through you and it hurts, but you are actually even beyond that.
毒镖击中你的自我，它击中你的身体，毒液流经你，很痛，但你实际上甚至超越了它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He seems to come up almost every episode, but my good friend Rick Rubin, who you would absolutely enjoy spending time with, and he with you, I'm certain of that just talking with you today and knowing him very well, has talked a lot and written a lot about how this getting beyond or outside or separate from the ego is the essence of really the work he does with creative artists.
他似乎几乎每一集都会出现，但我的好朋友里克·鲁宾（Rick Rubin），你绝对会喜欢和他共度时光，我确信他和你在一起，我今天刚刚与你交谈并且非常了解他，他已经谈了很多，写了很多关于如何超越自我或与自我分离是他与创意艺术家所做的工作的本质。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's really getting them outside of the perceptions of others.
这确实让他们摆脱了别人的看法。
It's one of the reasons why when he's worked with artists when they're not yet famous, they're in their-
这就是为什么当他与尚未成名的艺术家合作时，他们处于——
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They might be ambitious, they might want some of that, but they're just doing their art.
他们可能雄心勃勃，他们可能想要其中一些，但他们只是在做他们的艺术。
They're not filtering it through feedback.
他们没有通过反馈来过滤它。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there's something so beautiful-
还有如此美丽的东西——
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
about that.
关于那个。
Then it gets contaminated, and then the work over time is to ask whether or not people can get beyond that.
然后它就被污染了，然后随着时间的推移，我们的工作就是询问人们是否可以超越它。
But you're talking about shunya, is that how you pronounce it?
但你说的是shunya，你就是这么发音的吗？
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Accessing this void, getting away from the ego as a practice for everyone, everyday life.
进入这个空虚，摆脱自我，作为每个人日常生活的一种练习。
Not just people, not just influencers and on the internet.
不仅仅是人，不仅仅是有影响力的人和互联网上的人。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're talking about the kid on the playground, the person on social media going with comparison or at the game looking at what the other kids' moms or dads have or are doing, wearing, et cetera.
你谈论的是操场上的孩子，社交媒体上进行比较的人，或者在比赛中观察其他孩子的妈妈或爸爸有什么或正在做什么、穿着等等。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I'm talking about the older sister whose younger sister is getting married first.
我说的是妹妹先结婚的姐姐。
I'm talking about the sibling whose older sibling got admitted to an Ivy League university, and they didn't.
我说的是一个兄弟姐妹，他的哥哥姐姐被常春藤盟校录取，但他们没有。
I'm talking about the two of y'all that started the job at the same time, and your friend gets promoted and you don't.
我说的是你们两个同时开始工作，你的朋友升职了，而你却没有。
And all that stuff hurts, right?
所有这些东西都很痛，对吧？
And the real tragedy here, I've worked with so many people who are incredibly successful, is sometimes when we get that hurt, we adapt.
我和很多非常成功的人一起工作过，真正的悲剧是，有时当我们受到伤害时，我们会适应。
We become ambitious.
我们变得雄心勃勃。
We say, "I'm going to be that thing." And it leads us to success, but we pay the price of happiness.
我们说：“我要成为那样的人。”它带领我们走向成功，但我们付出了幸福的代价。
And the real tragedy is that some people believe that you get one or the other.
真正的悲剧在于，有些人相信你会得到其中之一。
You can be ambitious, or you can be happy.
你可以雄心勃勃，也可以快乐。
But I think you are a great living, breathing, walking example of when you tap into what really drives you, then you can be successful.
但我认为你是一个活生生、会呼吸、行走的伟大榜样，当你挖掘真正驱动你的东西时，你就能成功。
I don't know if you're happy.
我不知道你是否快乐。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I actually am very happy and very peaceful at this stage of my life.
事实上，我在人生的这个阶段非常快乐、非常平静。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I am.
我是。
I struggle like everyone else-
我和其他人一样挣扎——
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with having to do work to clear the contaminants and my own and working on myself, certainly.
当然，我必须努力清除污染物和我自己的污染物。
One thing that I've done that I'd love your thoughts on, because perhaps it offers a useful tool for people, is whenever I feel I'm not as in touch with that part of myself as I would like, or I feel like I've drifted from it, or I'm just kind of caught in the current of whatever it is I've signed up for in life, which I enjoy, but now it's contaminated, and there's sewage floating next to me, so to speak-
我做过的一件事我希望你能想到，因为也许它为人们提供了一个有用的工具，每当我觉得我没有像我希望的那样与自己的那一部分联系时，或者我觉得我已经偏离了它，或者我只是陷入了我在生活中所签署的任何东西的潮流中，我喜欢它，但现在它被污染了，可以说，我旁边漂浮着污水——
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I find some way to bring things into my home environment ...
我找到了一些方法将事物带入我的家庭环境......
that remind me of that feeling when I was a kid.
这让我想起了小时候的那种感觉。
So recently, for instance, I converted an art gallery into a living space.
例如，最近我将一个艺术画廊改造成一个生活空间。
This is something that I can now do in my life that I certainly couldn't do some years ago.
这是我现在可以做的事情，而几年前我肯定做不到。
And I love fish tanks, so I brought in aquaria, and I've got my fish tanks, and I've got a pet octopus.
我喜欢鱼缸，所以我带了水族箱，我有我的鱼缸，还有一只宠物章鱼。
And for Valentine's Day, I got her flowers.
情人节那天，我给她送了花。
I said, "Oh, there are the flowers." We got back from dinner, they were there, and she goes, "I got you some plants." And I turned around, and the place was filled with plants.
我说：“哦，有花。”我们吃完晚饭回来，他们就在那里，她说：“我给你买了一些植物。”我回头一看，那地方长满了植物。
And I love animals and plants.
我喜欢动物和植物。
I was like, "Oh my God." So she clearly gets me.
我当时想，“天哪。”所以她显然明白我的意思。
And I was like, "Oh my goodness." And now when I wake up in the morning, I love those plants.
我当时想，“天哪。”现在，当我早上醒来时，我喜欢这些植物。
I need her to take care of them because I walk near a plant, and it dies.
我需要她照顾它们，因为我走在一棵植物附近，它死了。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fish and animals, I'm good.
鱼和动物，我很好。
But when I'm surrounded by things that just feel really good and wholesome and just kind of basic to who I know myself to be at a certain level, then I feel like I can take that energy into everything I do, and it serves as a filter.
但是，当我被那些感觉非常好的、有益健康的事物所包围时，并且对我所了解的自己在一定程度上来说是基本的，那么我觉得我可以将这种能量带入我所做的一切中，并且它起到了过滤器的作用。
Like bullshit shows up as bullshit at that point.
就像废话在那时就显示为废话一样。
People's issues show up as their issues.
人们的问题表现为他们的问题。
Real criticism that I need to internalize, I like to think, still gets signal above the noise.
我喜欢认为，我需要内化的真正批评仍然比噪音更能传达信号。
So I tend to put things outside me to reawaken that, but I love, love, love, love that you're offering tools that have nothing to do with building something, buying something, because those things are still external to me.
所以我倾向于把事情放在我之外来重新唤醒这一点，但我喜欢，喜欢，喜欢，喜欢你提供的工具与构建一些东西，购买一些东西无关，因为这些东西对我来说仍然是外部的。
This meditation is really about accessing it from within first.
这种冥想实际上是首先从内部进入它。
So anyway, that's just a reflection.
所以无论如何，这只是一个反思。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So I want to point out, I think that this is such a masculine thing.
所以我想指出，我认为这是一件很有男子气概的事情。
So if I can-- So men are really interesting.
所以如果我可以的话——那么男人真的很有趣。
So we're trained to not manage our internal environment internally.
所以我们被训练不要在内部管理我们的内部环境。
So I had a patient who I saw in a jail.
我在监狱里见过一个病人。
He was 19, and he'd been in jail three or four times.
他当时 19 岁，已经坐过三四次牢。
And so I was talking to him about how he wound up here because he's 19.
所以我和他谈论了他是如何来到这里的，因为他才 19 岁。
And so he was telling me that when he was 12, his dad passed away.
所以他告诉我，当他 12 岁时，他的父亲去世了。
He's got three sisters, all older, and a mom.
他有三个姐姐，年纪都比较大，还有一个妈妈。
And what they told him is, "You're the man of the house, and you have to provide."
他们告诉他的是，“你是一家之主，你必须养家糊口。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Heavy.
重。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
And so he was like, "Okay, this is what I have to do." So men do this thing, it's really interesting.
所以他说，“好吧，这就是我必须做的。”所以男人做这件事，真的很有趣。
We do emotional regulation through our environment.
我们通过环境进行情绪调节。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
So if my environment makes me feel a certain way, if my mom, dad, brother, sister, boss is upset with me and makes me feel bad, if I make them happy, they will no longer be upset with me.
因此，如果我的环境让我有某种感觉，如果我的妈妈、爸爸、兄弟、姐妹、老板对我感到不安并让我感觉不好，如果我让他们高兴，他们就不会再对我感到不安。
And if they're no longer upset with me, I will be content.
如果他们不再生我的气，我就会心满意足。
We shape our internal emotional environment through our external environment.
我们通过外部环境塑造我们的内部情感环境。
And the scariest place I see this is when men I work with, and it's not that this doesn't happen to women as well.
我看到的最可怕的地方是当我和男性一起工作时，这并不是说这种情况不会发生在女性身上。
This is more the way we're socialized, and there's an effect of testosterone and estrogen here as well.
这更多的是我们的社交方式，而且睾丸激素和雌激素也有影响。
There's a biological element to this.
这有一个生物学因素。
But then they fall into this trap of their emotions are determined by the environment.
但随后他们就陷入了这样的陷阱：他们的情绪是由环境决定的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
So men are just, the way that they solve their internal emotional problems is by interacting with their environment.
所以男人是公正的，他们解决内心情感问题的方式就是通过与环境的互动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
That's just very common.
这很常见。
So it doesn't mean that we shouldn't utilize the outside space.
所以这并不意味着我们不应该利用外部空间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Right?
对吗？
So I'm not suggesting, if you're pursuing enlightenment, then don't get aquaria.
所以我并不是建议，如果你追求启蒙，那就不要买水族箱。
But most of us aren't doing that.
但我们大多数人并没有这样做。
So I think we should utilize, shape our external environment.
所以我觉得我们应该利用、塑造我们的外部环境。
There's tons of evidence that changing your environment is critical from recovering from addiction.
有大量证据表明，改变环境对于戒除毒瘾至关重要。
Right?
正确的？
If you're still hanging out at a bar, it's going to be really hard to be sober.
如果你还在酒吧里闲逛，就很难保持清醒。
So we want to utilize those things, but we don't want to become dependent on them.
所以我们想利用这些东西，但我们不想变得依赖它们。
So shape your environment for your benefit, but also be stable enough internally to where you don't need your aquaria to feel stable.
因此，为了您的利益塑造您的环境，但内部也要保持足够稳定，以便您不需要水族箱感到稳定。
Which I doubt you need.
我怀疑你需要什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, no, no.
不，不，不。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I raised that example.
我举了那个例子。
I see exactly what you're saying, and no, I use that example because it's like the ability to get in touch with a piece of oneself that feels very true, very wholesome, and not, for lack of a better word, contaminated by anything external-
我完全明白你在说什么，不，我用这个例子是因为它就像能够接触到自己的一部分，感觉非常真实，非常健康，而不是因为缺乏更好的词而被任何外部事物污染-
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
feels good, and I think it's the energy that one takes away from that, that I take away from that, that excites me.
感觉很好，我认为正是人们从中获取的能量，我从中获取的能量，才让我兴奋。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So I think it's a great point, right?
所以我认为这是一个很好的观点，对吧？
So I think we sometimes forget.
所以我认为我们有时会忘记。
So I was giving a talk for executives about work-life balance, and I was like, "There's no such thing." So I think we try to, work is over here and balance, home is over-- Sorry.
所以我在为高管们做一个关于工作与生活平衡的演讲时，我的反应是：“根本不存在这样的事情。”所以我想我们会尽力，工作已经结束，平衡，家庭结束了——抱歉。
Yeah.
是的。
Life is over here.
生活到这里就结束了。
That's not how it works.
事情不是这样的。
You as a human being carry yourself between both situations.
作为一个人，你会在两种情况之间徘徊。
When things are bad at work is when people have affairs.
工作不顺的时候就是人们有外遇的时候。
If things are bad at home, you're not going to be at your best at work.
如果家里情况不好，你在工作中就无法发挥最佳状态。
So I think you're really tunneling down into, I think, the most important part of it, which is that look at how you get shaped and look at the person that you carry into your next thing.
所以我认为你真的在深入研究其中最重要的部分，那就是看看你是如何被塑造的，以及你在下一件事情中所带入的人。
There's a whole science behind that, which I think we probably don't have time for, but this idea of samskaras, which is almost like learning.
这背后有一整套科学，我认为我们可能没有时间，但是这种“samskaras”的想法几乎就像学习一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
So if you sort of look at every experience that you have, you learn something, and you carry yourself forward, right, into the next experience.
因此，如果你回顾一下你所拥有的每一次经历，你就会学到一些东西，然后你就会继续前进，进入下一次经历。
That's what we call learning.
这就是我们所说的学习。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, let's talk about samskaras, because years ago, 2017, I was exposed to Yoga Nidra.
好吧，让我们谈谈业力，因为几年前，2017 年，我接触到了瑜伽休息术。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The guy that taught me Nidra said the whole purpose of Nidra is, yes, to learn how to relax the body with an active mind, et cetera, to make up sleep that perhaps you didn't get the night before, become a better sleeper, all that stuff.
教我 Nidra 的人说 Nidra 的全部目的是，是的，学习如何以活跃的思维放松身体，等等，弥补前一天晚上可能没有得到的睡眠，成为一个更好的睡眠者，所有这些东西。
But he said the purpose is to burn the samskaras down to the roots.
但他说，目的是把业力连根烧掉。
These are like weeds that come up in your life, and you're supposed to burn them down, and Nidra is one way that you You rid yourself of these things.
这些就像你生活中出现的杂草，你应该把它们烧掉，而尼德拉是你摆脱这些东西的一种方式。
Is he totally off base?
他完全没有根据吗？
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
No. So we have to be careful because you love Aquaria and you love frogs.
不，所以我们必须小心，因为你喜欢水族馆，也喜欢青蛙。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Now we're getting to what I love.
现在我们正在做我喜欢的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Okay.
好的。
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
I prefer that
我更喜欢那个
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
...
...
let's understand what yoga nidra is and what a samskara is.
让我们了解什么是瑜伽休息术以及什么是桑斯卡拉。
So one of the biggest challenges that I have as a psychiatrist, my job is not in teaching people things.
因此，作为一名精神科医生，我面临的最大挑战之一是，我的工作不是教人们东西。
It is in helping them unlearn.
这是在帮助他们忘掉所学的东西。
So if you look at what trauma is, if you look at ambition, if you look at ego.
所以如果你看看创伤是什么，如果你看看野心，如果你看看自我。
You kind of said you try to connect to this childlike energy.
你好像说过你试图连接到这种童真的能量。
I forget if it was Leonardo or Michelangelo or someone who's like, "It took me my whole life to learn how to paint like a child." So if you look at literally what happens with the human psychology is we accrue these microtraumas as we go through life.
我忘记了是莱昂纳多还是米开朗基罗，还是某个人说：“我花了一生的时间才学会如何像孩子一样画画。”因此，如果你从字面上看人类心理发生了什么，我们就会在生活中积累这些微创伤。
We accrue associations.
我们积累关联。
I had a patient who was absolutely traumatized, so was dating someone engaged to a dude, okay?
我有一个病人，他受到了极大的创伤，所以和一个已经订婚的人约会，好吗？
Discovered that her fiancé had been lying.
发现未婚夫一直在撒谎。
So he was in med school, failed out.
所以他在医学院读书，但失败了。
For two years, he pretended to go to class every day.
两年来，他每天假装去上课。
And then when he graduated, he got a job.
然后当他毕业时，他找到了工作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But he didn't really graduate.
但他并没有真正毕业。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
He didn't really graduate.
他并没有真正毕业。
Here's the scary thing.
这就是可怕的事情。
So he would leave in the morning, drive to his parents' house, spend the day there.
所以他会早上离开，开车去他父母家，在那里度过一天。
Parents would deposit money in their account.
父母将钱存入他们的帐户。
And so one day, I think what happened is she went to his parents' house, and she saw him there because she like-
所以有一天，我想发生的事情是她去了他父母家，她在那里看到了他，因为她喜欢——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Were they in on the-
他们是否参与了——
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah, they were in on it
是的，他们参与其中
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
on the lie?
在谎言上？
They were in on the lie.
他们撒了谎。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Right.
正确的。
So they were in on the lie.
所以他们在撒谎。
And so she is just like, "What are you doing here?" And then she discovers not only him, but her parents have been depositing money into their account every month.
所以她就像，“你在这里做什么？”然后她发现不仅是他，她的父母每个月都在他们的账户上存钱。
And so she discovers this betrayal.
于是她发现了这种背叛。
And so now-
所以现在——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm shocked.
我很震惊。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
It's insane.
太疯狂了。
It's absolutely insane the lengths that people will go to, to deceive you.
人们会不遗余力地欺骗你，这绝对是疯狂的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, believe me, I've experienced somebody creating a world that was a complete fabrication, and it eventually all came tumbling down for them.
哦，相信我，我经历过有人创造了一个完全虚构的世界，但最终一切都崩溃了。
But I remember being like, "Oh my God."
但我记得当时的感觉是：“天哪。”
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Right.
正确的。
So when you're about to marry this person, it leaves scars.
所以当你要嫁给这个人时，就会留下伤痕。
So then what happens is she goes into her next relationship, and she has an immense amount of distrust, is paranoid about her next partner.
所以接下来发生的事情是，她进入了下一段关系，她非常不信任，对她的下一个伴侣感到偏执。
Next partner didn't do shit, and this guy is getting, like there's so much paranoia, right?
下一个搭档没有做任何事，而这个家伙变得越来越偏执，对吧？
So if you look at life, life is a series of bad stuff that happens to us, and then we adapt.
所以如果你审视生活，生活就是一系列发生在我们身上的坏事，然后我们就适应了。
But the way that the human mind adapts is the same way that the human body adapts.
但人类思想的适应方式与人体的适应方式是一样的。
Which is if we get really damaged, we get a callus.
也就是说，如果我们真的受伤了，我们就会长出老茧。
We get scar tissue.
我们得到疤痕组织。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Scar tissue's not functional.
疤痕组织没有功能。
It's protective, but it's not functional.
它具有保护作用，但没有功能。
So most of our adaptations become maladaptations later on.
所以我们的大多数适应后来都变成了适应不良。
Okay?
好的？
So this is what a samskara is.
这就是业力。
So it's like this emotional energy that lingers with you and shapes the way that you see the world.
因此，这种情感能量会一直伴随着你，并塑造你看待世界的方式。
So, it's really fascinating because we have all this trauma processing, and the yogis were talking about it for thousands of years as samskaras.
所以，这真的很令人着迷，因为我们有所有这些创伤处理，而且瑜伽修行者几千年来一直在谈论它作为业力。
And now you were talking about this thing down there that needs to be burned.
现在你正在谈论下面这个需要烧掉的东西。
So let's understand that for a second.
让我们先了解一下这一点。
If you look at your mind, stuff pops up, right?
如果你观察你的头脑，一些东西就会突然出现，对吗？
Have you ever wondered why certain things pop up?
您是否想过为什么某些事情会突然出现？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No.
不。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Right.
对。
Have you ever thought, like, why aren't you interested in the scent of a rose?
你有没有想过，为什么你对玫瑰的香味不感兴趣？
Like it's so weird.
好像这件事太奇怪了。
Our mind just generates thoughts.
我们的头脑只会产生想法。
And everyone is trying to learn discipline and willpower.
每个人都在努力学习纪律和意志力。
I think it's terrible.
我觉得这太可怕了。
Willpower is so bad because why not just shape yourself to have the right desires?
意志力是如此糟糕，因为为什么不直接塑造自己以拥有正确的愿望呢？
Then you don't need willpower.
那你就不需要意志力了。
This is what the process of yoga is really about.
这就是瑜伽过程的真正含义。
This is what samskara generation is about.
这就是桑斯卡拉一代的意义所在。
Did you learn a sankalpa when you did yoga nidra?
当你做瑜伽休息术时，你学会了桑卡尔帕吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, they talk about it.
好吧，他们谈论它。
I confess that I've maintained a very regular yoga nidra practice, but I've not explored these aspects of it.
我承认我一直保持着非常规律的瑜伽休息练习，但我还没有探索过它的这些方面。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So I'll explain to you the mechanism of a sankalpa and literally, it's fucking wild.
所以我会向你解释 sankalpa 的机制，从字面上看，它太疯狂了。
This is reprogramming your subconscious mind so that the things that your subconscious mind puts into your conscious mind, you can control.
这是对你的潜意识进行重新编程，以便你可以控制潜意识放入你的意识中的事物。
Okay?
好的？
So in the case of trauma, all kinds of weird stuff gets put into our subconscious mind.
因此，在遭受创伤的情况下，各种奇怪的东西都会被放入我们的潜意识中。
Like, "I can't trust people." Then what happens is that floats to the surface.
就像，“我不能相信别人。”然后发生的事情就是浮到表面。
In my patient's case, every time her second fiancé, she doesn't know where he is, she's like, "Maybe he's scamming me," right?
以我的病人为例，每次她的第二个未婚夫，她都不知道他在哪里，她就像，“也许他在骗我，”对吧？
That's what she thinks.
她就是这么想的。
So I don't know if that makes sense.
所以我不知道这是否有意义。
That's a thought in her conscious, which is being born out of something in her unconscious.
这是她意识中的一个想法，是从她无意识中的某些东西中诞生的。
We, in neuroscience, call this learning, right?
在神经科学领域，我们称之为学习，对吗？
So we're learning certain things.
所以我们正在学习某些东西。
So in psychotherapy, we try to get rid of that bad stuff.
所以在心理治疗中，我们试图摆脱那些不好的东西。
But let's understand how stuff goes in, because if we can understand how the mind is programmed, and it's so simple, so neuroscientific, okay?
但是让我们了解一下东西是如何进入的，因为如果我们能够理解大脑是如何编程的，而且它是如此简单，如此神经科学，好吗？
Or maybe you can tell me it's not neuroscientific, but I'm pretty sure it is.
或者也许你可以告诉我这不是神经科学的，但我很确定它是。
Okay.
好的。
The first thing is the one-pointedness of the mind allows things to sink in.
首先，心的专一性可以让事物深入人心。
So if I'm trying to study optic nerve anatomy, and I'm in a burning building with people yelling at me, I can have my eyes look at the paper, but I'm not going to learn anything.
因此，如果我想研究视神经解剖学，而我在一栋着火的大楼里，人们对我大喊大叫，我可以让眼睛看论文，但我不会学到任何东西。
This is the really crazy thing is a lot of people study repetitively, right?
这是很多人反复研究的真正疯狂的事情，对吗？
So I read the paper again and again and again and again, but it's not like each time I read the paper, I get 10% of the knowledge.
所以我一遍又一遍地读论文，但并不是每次读论文都能获得10%的知识。
If you really pay attention to your mind, when you are focused, when your mind is one-pointed, you just need to read it once.
如果你真正注意你的心，当你全神贯注，当你的心专一时，你只需要读一遍就可以了。
What we're basically doing is we're rolling the dice.
我们基本上所做的就是掷骰子。
Am I focused this time I read the page?
这次我阅读该页面时注意力集中吗？
Am I focused this time I read the page?
这次我阅读该页面时注意力集中吗？
Am I focused this time I read the page?
这次我阅读该页面时注意力集中吗？
And this is also why we have studies on things like writing.
这也是为什么我们要研究写作这样的东西。
So when you write, it improves your capacity to focus.
因此，当您写作时，它可以提高您的专注能力。
So that's when things enter your memory a little bit more.
所以那时事情就会更多地进入你的记忆。
So one-pointedness of the mind is what leads to things being learned.
因此，头脑的专一性是导致学习事物的原因。
Now, this is how trauma works.
现在，这就是创伤的运作方式。
So when you are intensely emotional, it actually focuses your mind.
因此，当你情绪非常激动时，它实际上会集中你的注意力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, and as you mentioned before, and I'm so glad you did, as a visual system neuroscientist, when adrenaline levels are high, the visual field narrows, our depth perception change, everything becomes a microscope view of the thing in front of us.
是的，正如你之前提到的，我很高兴你这么做了，作为一名视觉系统神经科学家，当肾上腺素水平很高时，视野变窄，我们的深度感知发生变化，一切都变成了我们面前事物的显微镜视图。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Absolutely, right?
绝对，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
And when we're having an argument because you didn't get me what I asked for Valentine's Day, and then I tell you, "Andrew, you've never gotten me what I want for Valentine's Day," that laser focus, that one statement that I make, even though I told you right before that I love you and right after I'm sorry, that thing sinks in.
当我们因为你没有得到我想要的情人节礼物而发生争执时，然后我告诉你，“安德鲁，你从来没有得到我想要的情人节礼物”，那激光焦点，我所做的这句话，即使我之前告诉过你我爱你，在我很抱歉之后，那件事就深入人心了。
It's that poison dart, right?
就是那个毒镖吧？
It sinks in, and that's what you remember because you are focused on it.
它会深入人心，这就是你记住的，因为你专注于它。
So when we are emotional, we are focused.
所以当我们情绪激动时，我们就会集中注意力。
So the way that I want you to think about your mind is like a pool of water that has a lot of waves.
所以我希望你思考你的心的方式就像一池有很多波浪的水。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
And when the water is still, something can sink down to the bottom.
当水静止时，某些东西可能会沉到底部。
But when the water is really active, nothing sinks in.
但当水真正活跃时，什么都不会沉下去。
So now we get to yoga nidra.
现在我们开始瑜伽休息术。
So in yoga nidra, what we are doing is attaining a state of consciousness that is what's called in the yogic scientific literature a hypnagogic state.
因此，在瑜伽休息术中，我们正在做的是达到一种意识状态，这就是瑜伽科学文献中所说的催眠状态。
So it's not hypnosis, but it's not pure active consciousness.
所以这不是催眠，但也不是纯粹的主动意识。
It is a very dormant awakeness, if that kind of makes sense.
这是一种非常休眠的觉醒，如果这有道理的话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Right?
对吗？
You're in this trance.
你正处于这种恍惚状态。
And so in that trance, you're in the edit mode for your unconscious mind.
因此，在那种恍惚状态下，你处于潜意识的编辑模式。
So this is where a sankalpa comes in.
这就是 sankalpa 发挥作用的地方。
So a sankalpa is a resolve that you put in there.
所以 sankalpa 是你投入其中的决心。
And then I don't know how to explain this except in this way.
然后我不知道如何解释这一点，除了这样。
So when I work with a patient who has anxiety and they have this subconscious programming, when we have a therapeutic breakthrough, which there's tons of evidence for, right?
因此，当我与患有焦虑症的患者一起工作时，他们有这种潜意识编程，当我们取得治疗突破时，有大量证据证明这一点，对吗？
So even Freud noticed this, that you have to activate the emotion in psychotherapy.
所以甚至弗洛伊德也注意到了这一点，在心理治疗中你必须激活情绪。
Like my patient that I talked about a while ago who comes in, he talks about how he's depressed, didn't do shit for him.
就像我刚才提到的一位进来的病人一样，他谈到自己有多沮丧，没有为他做任何事。
What we have to talk about is why he's angry, how he's been screwed in life, all the people that he's angry-- So then once that emotional energy activates, we become one-pointed, we activate that energy in the unconscious, and then if we vent it out, it disappears.
我们要谈论的是他为什么生气，他在生活中是如何被搞砸的，所有让他生气的人——所以一旦情绪能量被激活，我们就会变得专一，我们在无意识中激活这种能量，然后如果我们发泄出来，它就会消失。
That's how you burn away the things, by letting them out.
这就是你如何通过释放它们来烧掉它们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And in nidra, is there an opportunity for emotion?
在休息中，有情感的机会吗？
It's a deeply relaxed but mind-active state.
这是一种深度放松但思维活跃的状态。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
No, no. Yeah.
不，不。是的。
So you don't want emotion in nidra.
所以你不希望在休息时有情绪。
So emotion collapses a scattered mind to one point.
因此，情绪会将分散的思想瓦解到一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
But there is a state of consciousness even beyond one-pointedness that we use in studying, where if you talk to people who engage in not even the flow state, but beyond the flow state.
但是，有一种意识状态甚至超越了我们在学习中使用的单一指向性，如果你与那些不是处于心流状态而是处于心流状态之外的人交谈。
So there are people who, I know it's going to sound hokey, but people who channel divinity.
所以有些人，我知道这听起来很做作，但他们却传递着神性。
I think divine is the best scientific term.
我认为神圣是最好的科学术语。
So there are some human beings, and everyone has experienced this, where you're not you.
所以有些人类，每个人都经历过这种情况，但你不是你。
You're like something else.
你就像别的东西一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Tell me more.
告诉我更多。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
I think the Greeks' thought of genius is not a person, is like something you channel.
我认为希腊人认为天才不是一个人，而是像你引导的某种东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Something coming through somebody.
有东西通过某人而来。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Something coming through.
有东西过来了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We see this, I think, most readily in musicians.
我认为，我们在音乐家身上最容易看到这一点。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Musicians, athletes.
音乐家、运动员。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Right?
对吗？
So there are some times, like I work with esports athletes, and some of them know that they're going to win.
所以有时候，就像我和电子竞技运动员一起工作一样，他们中的一些人知道他们会赢。
They see the game that they're going to play, and they know exactly what's going to happen.
他们看到了他们将要玩的游戏，并且确切地知道将会发生什么。
And the crazy thing, it's not a calculation, it's an intuition.
最疯狂的是，这不是计算，而是直觉。
I'm sure that on some level they're calculating.
我确信他们在某种程度上正在算计。
So we call this stuff divine.
所以我们称这种东西为神圣的。
I'm not saying it's divine.
我并不是说它是神圣的。
I'm not saying it comes from God.
我并不是说它来自上帝。
I'm saying that the subjective experience is qualitatively, fundamentally different from a regular logical experience.
我的意思是，主观体验在本质上与常规逻辑体验有本质上的不同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
So this is a state of mind that is even beyond emotion.
所以这是一种甚至超越情感的心态。
It's in the edit mode.
它处于编辑模式。
In scattered mind, emotion brings us down to some amount of focus, but then there's even a level of focus that's deeper.
在分散的思维中，情绪会让我们集中注意力，但甚至还有更深层次的注意力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that's where the rewriting comes from.
这就是重写的来源。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
That's where the rewriting comes in.
这就是重写的用武之地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The editing, yeah.
编辑，是的。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
And then when you implant something there, that's what a sankalpa is.
然后当你在那里植入一些东西时，这就是 sankalpa。
So when you do yoga nidra, the physiologic element, so this is what's not bad, but is a necessary step with where we are with science.
所以当你做瑜伽休息术时，生理元素，所以这并不是坏事，而是我们科学发展的必要步骤。
All the weird mystical stuff I think is real, but we have to start with the basic science, right?
我认为所有奇怪的神秘的东西都是真实的，但我们必须从基础科学开始，对吗？
So the way that science works is we start with, okay, let's look at cortisol production, and then let's look at what happens next, and let's look at what happens next, and let's look at what happens next.
因此，科学运作的方式是我们从开始，好吧，让我们看看皮质醇的产生，然后让我们看看接下来会发生什么，让我们看看接下来会发生什么，让我们看看接下来会发生什么。
So yoga nidra, whether you're talking about cardiac coherence breathing, so there's the first stage of what we call Nadi Shuddhi Pranayama, which is alternate nostril breathing.
因此，瑜伽休息术，无论您是在谈论心脏连贯呼吸，还是我们所说的 Nadi Shuddhi Pranayama 的第一阶段，即交替鼻孔呼吸。
But then there's a text called Vasishtha Samhita, which talks about a particular kind of cardiac coherence breathing with a ratio of one to four to eight.
但是，有一篇名为《Vasishtha Samhita》的文本，其中讨论了一种特殊的心脏连贯呼吸，其比例为一比四比八。
So you breathe in for eight seconds, actually you breathe in for 16 seconds, you hold for 64 seconds, and then you exhale for 32 seconds.
所以你吸气 8 秒，实际上你吸气 16 秒，屏住 64 秒，然后呼气 32 秒。
If you do the Vasishtha Samhita version of cardiac coherence breathing, the subjective experience is completely different.
如果你做 Vasishtha Samhita 版本的心脏连贯呼吸，主观体验是完全不同的。
You will feel prana.
你会感受到普拉纳。
You will feel chi.
你会感受到气。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
With that pattern of breathing.
就这样的呼吸方式。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
With that pattern of breathing.
就这样的呼吸方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Those are long inhales-
这些都是长长的吸气——
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Oh, yeah
哦，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
holds, and exhales.
保持并呼气。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So it's hard to get to, but literally the subjective experience that you will have is a sense of vibration at the periphery of your body.
所以很难达到，但从字面上看，你将获得的主观体验是身体外围的振动感。
That's what it feels like to me.
这就是我的感觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Eight Sleep.
我想稍微休息一下，并向我们的赞助商“八睡”表示感谢。
Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep-tracking capacity.
八睡眠公司生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。
One of the best ways to ensure you get a great night's sleep is to make sure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct.
确保您睡个好觉的最佳方法之一是确保睡眠环境的温度正确。
And that's because in order to fall asleep and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees.
这是因为为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，您的体温实际上必须下降约一到三度。
And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees.
为了醒来时感觉神清气爽、精力充沛，您的体温实际上必须升高约一到三度。
Eight Sleep automatically regulates the temperature of your bed throughout the night according to your unique needs.
八睡眠会根据您的独特需求自动调节整个晚上的床温。
I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for nearly five years now, and it has completely transformed and improved the quality of my sleep.
我已经睡在八睡眠床垫罩上近五年了，它彻底改变并改善了我的睡眠质量。
The latest Eight Sleep model is the Pod 5.
最新的八睡眠型号是 Pod 5。
This is what I'm now sleeping on, and I absolutely love it.
这就是我现在睡觉的地方，我非常喜欢它。
It has so many incredible features.
它有很多令人难以置信的功能。
For instance, the Pod 5 has a feature called Autopilot, which is an AI engine that learns your sleep patterns and then adjusts the temperature of your sleeping environment across different sleep stages.
例如，Pod 5有一个名为Autopilot的功能，这是一个人工智能引擎，可以学习你的睡眠模式，然后在不同的睡眠阶段调整你的睡眠环境温度。
It'll even elevate your head if you're snoring, and it makes other shifts to optimize your sleep.
如果您打鼾，它甚至会抬高您的头部，并进行其他转换以优化您的睡眠。
If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, go to eightsleep.com/huberman to get up to $350 off the new Pod 5.
如果您想尝试八睡眠，请访问八睡眠.com/huberman，新款 Pod 5 最高可享受 350 美元优惠。
Eight Sleep ships to many countries worldwide, including Mexico and the UAE.
八号睡眠船运往世界各地的许多国家，包括墨西哥和阿联酋。
Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $350.
同样，访问八睡眠.com/huberman 最多可节省 350 美元。
If I may, just a brief editorial about why I also believe that science needs to go down through the physiological first.
如果可以的话，我想写一篇简短的社论，说明为什么我也相信科学需要首先深入生理学。
My lab has done some-
我的实验室做了一些——
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
clinical studies on breathwork.
呼吸的临床研究。
We call it respiration physiology for a reason.
我们称其为呼吸生理学是有原因的。
It's important to be able to fund studies and also to be able to communicate that information to colleagues who, if they just hear breathwork or meditation, it's a separator, right?
能够资助研究并能够将这些信息传达给同事很重要，如果他们只是听到呼吸或冥想，那就是一个分隔符，对吗？
The field of science can't go into the mystical right away.
科学领域不可能立刻进入神秘领域。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But what's so interesting is nowadays there are discussions about meditation that are starting to get into the deeper layers, but it took 20 years or more of formal science to do.
但有趣的是，现在关于冥想的讨论开始深入到更深层次，但正规科学却花了20年或更长时间才完成。
I'm not arguing with you.
我不和你争论。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think some people will say, "Why not just cut to the chase?"
我想有些人会说：“为什么不直接切入正题呢？”
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
No, I mean, I-
不，我是说，我——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I completely agree with everything you're saying.
我完全同意你所说的一切。
I think there are ways of editing the nervous system that are non-pharmacologic, that are behavioral.
我认为有一些非药物性的、行为性的编辑神经系统的方法。
You're describing some of the more ancient ones.
你正在描述一些更古老的。
I do believe the yogis were and are neuroscientists.
我确实相信瑜伽士过去和现在都是神经科学家。
They come in through a different avenue.
他们通过不同的途径进来。
My recollection from Nidra is that there's an encouragement to two things that I would love your comments on.
我对 Nidra 的回忆是，有两件事对我来说是一种鼓励，我希望你能发表评论。
One is there's an instruction in the Nidras that I've done to move away from thinking and doing to being and feeling.
其中之一是我在《尼德拉》中做了一条指示，让我从思考和行动转向存在和感觉。
You're trying to get out of the state of planning, out of-- Is there some-
你正试图摆脱计划的状态，摆脱——有没有——
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
shift that's critical?
转变这很关键吗？
And then the other one is "I am" statements.
另一种是“我是”陈述。
There's this instruction to talk about one's deepest heart's desire as if it's already happened.
有这样一条指示，要谈论一个人内心最深处的愿望，就好像它已经发生一样。
Is that BS, or is that real?
这是 BS 还是真的？
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
No, it's not BS, but we have to understand mechanisms.
不，这不是废话，但我们必须了解机制。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
So let me talk about the science bit for a bit.
那么让我谈谈科学一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
I have a far, not simpler.
我有一个遥远的，不简单的。
I'm a clinician.
我是一名临床医生。
I think there's a reason we have to start with physiology, because when a patient comes into my office, if I tell them, "Do yoga nidra," what is the effect size of the intervention?
我认为我们必须从生理学开始是有原因的，因为当病人来到我的办公室时，如果我告诉他们“做瑜伽休息术”，干预的效果大小是多少？
We need to know that, right?
我们需要知道这一点，对吗？
So here's the problem with studying meditation and the benefit of studying meditation this way.
这就是学习冥想的问题以及以这种方式学习冥想的好处。
The problem is that we're teaching people to swim for eight weeks.
问题是我们要教人们游泳八周。
That does not show us what an Olympic athlete is.
这并没有向我们展示什么是奥林匹克运动员。
So our science of meditation is in its infancy.
所以我们的冥想科学还处于起步阶段。
The reason why this is really important is because not everybody is a Buddha.
这之所以非常重要，是因为不是每个人都是佛。
So the reason we have to start with physiology is because we're doing scientific studies to make predictions.
所以我们必须从生理学开始是因为我们正在进行科学研究来做出预测。
Why are we making predictions?
我们为什么要做预测？
At least for me, it's to help a human being.
至少对我来说，这是为了帮助一个人。
So I don't care that there's some yogi who's been in the cave in the Himalayas for 60 years and attained some weird channeling of divinity.
所以我不在乎有一些瑜伽士在喜马拉雅山的洞穴里呆了 60 年并获得了一些奇怪的神性通灵。
What I want to know is when a human being comes into my office and I tell them to meditate, how much can I pull back on their SSRI if they've been sticking with the practice?
我想知道的是，当一个人来到我的办公室，我告诉他们冥想时，如果他们一直坚持练习，我可以减少多少 SSRI 剂量？
Right?
正确的？
So you have to start-- Science is about reliability, not about possibility.
所以你必须开始——科学是关于可靠性，而不是关于可能性。
That sounds so new age, but it's about what we can reliably predict, and that's a really important place to start.
这听起来很新时代，但它是关于我们可以可靠预测的，这是一个非常重要的起点。
Going back to the Nidra thing, this is the thing to understand.
回到 Nidra 的事情，这是需要理解的事情。
So if you think about planning, planning is a higher-order cognitive function that depends upon other baser cognitive functions.
因此，如果您考虑计划，就会发现计划是一种依赖于其他基础认知功能的高阶认知功能。
And I'll just give you a simple example.
我只举一个简单的例子。
If I care about parties, my mind will automatically plan parties.
如果我关心聚会，我的大脑就会自动计划聚会。
If I care about avoiding other people, I will automatically plan how to avoid other people.
如果我关心避开其他人，我会自动计划如何避开其他人。
So the planning that you do is whatever, but which things are you planning?
所以你所做的计划是任意的，但是你在计划哪些事情呢？
That comes from the deeper stuff, for lack of a better term.
这是来自更深层次的东西，因为缺乏更好的术语。
So these people, they're not doing the sankalpa in the most classic form, but they're getting there.
所以这些人，他们并没有以最经典的形式做桑卡尔帕，但他们已经做到了。
Because a being statement is the pluripotent stem cell of where you want to go.
因为存在陈述是你想去的地方的多能干细胞。
Okay?
好的？
So what do I mean by that?
那么我这是什么意思呢？
Let's be precise, and I know it sounds new agey, but there's science here, okay?
准确地说，我知道这听起来很新，但这里有科学，好吗？
So let's look at something like self-esteem.
让我们看看自尊这样的东西。
So self-esteem is an assessment of yourself.
所以自尊是对自己的评价。
And think about all of the ways if I have high self-esteem or low self-esteem, that will result in so many different-- Fuck, manifestation.
想想如果我有高自尊或低自尊，那会导致这么多不同的——操，表现形式。
It's the word, right?
是这个词吧？
That will manifest in your life in so many ways.
这会以多种方式体现在你的生活中。
How do you respond to feedback?
您如何回应反馈？
If someone asks too much of you, can you set a boundary?
如果有人对你要求太多，你能设定一个界限吗？
And this is the problem.
这就是问题所在。
The core of the work that I try to do is I try to help people get to their fundamentals.
我所做的工作的核心是帮助人们了解他们的基础知识。
Everyone's focused on changing behavior.
每个人都专注于改变行为。
Everyone's focused on increasing willpower to overcome this tendency.
每个人都致力于增强意志力来克服这种倾向。
And it's like, why not just change the tendency?
就像，为什么不改变这种趋势呢？
And that sounds so simple, but that's literally what we do in psychotherapy every day when we come in and someone has a narcissistic personality disorder.
这听起来很简单，但这就是我们每天在心理治疗中遇到患有自恋型人格障碍的人时所做的事情。
Andrew, this is personality.
安德鲁，这就是个性。
This is who they are, and we can psychotherapize them to be someone else, for their natural thoughts to change, for the way that they see the world to change, for their behaviors to change on its own.
这就是他们，我们可以对他们进行心理治疗，让他们成为另一个人，让他们的自然思想改变，让他们看待世界的方式改变，让他们的行为自行改变。
Willpower is necessary when you are trying to not be narcissistic.
当你试图不自恋时，意志力是必要的。
It is not necessary when you are no longer narcissistic So we've done it in psychotherapy.
当你不再自恋时就没有必要了，所以我们在心理治疗中做到了这一点。
We know that if your self-esteem changes, if your sense of being changes, treatment-refractory depression will change.
我们知道，如果你的自尊改变，如果你的存在感改变，难治性抑郁症就会改变。
Trauma, PTSD will change.
创伤、创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）将会改变。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you have your patients do nidra?
你们的病人有做休息术吗？
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Some of them.
其中一些。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
So I also have a whole-- I just started this research and then left academia, but I was trying to develop evidence-based protocols for particular diagnoses for certain kinds of meditation practices.
所以我也有一个整体——我刚刚开始这项研究，然后离开了学术界，但我试图为某些类型的冥想练习的特定诊断制定基于证据的协议。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Beautiful.
美丽。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Right.
对。
So for narcissism, I would lean into Sunya practices.
因此，对于自恋，我会倾向于桑亚实践。
For trauma healing, and specifically the patients who come in who need a fundamental belief change, if they just didn't believe this thing about themselves.
对于创伤愈合，特别是那些需要根本性信念改变的患者，如果他们不相信自己的这一点。
So I had one patient who had a lot of trauma, and the sankalpa that she came up with, or that we came up with together, is "I deserve to be whole," not "I am whole." And then if you think about a sankalpa, that's a compass that you will navigate life with.
所以我有一个患有很多创伤的病人，她想出的或者我们一起想出的桑卡尔帕是“我应该完整”，而不是“我是完整的”。如果你想到 sankalpa，那就是你用来导航生活的指南针。
So the main thing is, once it gets into her mind, "I deserve to be whole," if people, even her own-- She had a lot of self-sabotaging behaviors, and it's like, no, I deserve to be whole, right?
所以最重要的是，一旦她想到“我应该完整”，如果人们，甚至是她自己的——她有很多自我破坏的行为，那就是，不，我应该完整，对吗？
That is something that she-- And this isn't telling yourself.
这是她——而且这不是告诉你自己的。
This is the problem.
这就是问题所在。
I want to be precise.
我想要准确一点。
I know it sounds weird, but telling yourself is like there's a lot of mental activity, and you're trying to say something from the outside.
我知道这听起来很奇怪，但告诉自己就像有很多心理活动，而你试图从外面说些什么。
Like you can tell yourself, "Hey, Andrew, I'm going to remember this mathematical formula." Doesn't work.
就像你可以告诉自己，“嘿，安德鲁，我要记住这个数学公式。”不起作用。
You can tell yourself all kinds of things, but telling yourself is very surface-level mental activity.
你可以告诉自己各种各样的事情，但告诉自己只是非常表面的心理活动。
That's not how change happens.
改变不是这样发生的。
So when we're talking about narrative reconstruction post-trauma, and this is what's so terrible about social media, everyone's consuming this like, tell yourself every single day that this is true.
因此，当我们谈论创伤后的叙事重建时，这就是社交媒体的可怕之处，每个人都在消费它，每天告诉自己这是真的。
That's not how you change your beliefs.
这不是你改变信念的方式。
The science of how beliefs change isn't by telling yourself things over and over and over again.
关于信念如何改变的科学并不是一遍又一遍地告诉自己一些事情。
That's gaslighting yourself.
那是在给自己加油。
It's just trying to drown what you really believe with like, it's like taking a piece of dog poop and putting icing on top.
它只是试图用喜欢来淹没你真正相信的东西，就像拿一块狗屎并在上面放上糖霜一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not how neuroplasticity works.
这不是神经可塑性的运作方式。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Well said.
说得好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I can say that with 100% confidence-
我可以百分百自信地说——
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as a neuroscientist, and I don't claim any relationship to the work, but my scientific great-grandparents won the Nobel Prize for neuroplasticity.
作为一名神经科学家，我不声称与这项工作有任何关系，但我的科学曾祖父母因神经可塑性获得了诺贝尔奖。
It is a process that has certain requirements.
这是一个有一定要求的过程。
They have to happen in a certain order and at a certain depth of the nervous system, which is what you're describing, and so no amount of repeating a phrase-
它们必须以一定的顺序发生，并在神经系统的一定深度发生，这就是你所描述的，所以不需要重复一个短语——
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
positive or negative, is going to engage neuroplasticity.
积极或消极，都会涉及神经可塑性。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I wish that people knew that because it would provide them a filter through a lot of bullshit.
我希望人们知道这一点，因为这将为他们提供过滤掉很多废话的机会。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
So I think this sankalpa idea and this idea of focus on being statements, because being statements are more primordial, and they will result in the mental fluctuations of your mind in a different way, right?
所以我认为这个sankalpa想法和这个关注存在陈述的想法，因为存在陈述更原始，它们会以不同的方式导致你心灵的精神波动，对吧？
So they'll automatically result in a certain kind of desire, in a certain kind of planning, in a certain kind of inclination.
因此，它们会自动导致某种欲望、某种计划、某种倾向。
They're your most natural tendency.
它们是你最自然的倾向。
And I'm lazy.
而且我很懒。
People don't realize this, but I'm lazy.
人们没有意识到这一点，但我很懒。
I'm still the degenerate gamer.
我还是那个堕落的玩家。
I don't like to work.
我不喜欢工作。
I work seven days a week, but it's not work.
我每周工作 7 天，但这不是工作。
The only way I can work seven days a week is to shape my experience of the thing.
我每周工作 7 天的唯一方法就是塑造我对这件事的体验。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
And this is what a lot of people don't realize.
而这一点是很多人没有意识到的。
There's a fascinating theory that I think is somewhat true called the theory of constructed emotion.
有一个令人着迷的理论，我认为有些正确，称为建构情感理论。
So I forget who's the person who's the pioneer of it, but it's sort of this idea that we think that when something happens to us, the emotion is automatic, but we actually construct that emotion.
所以我忘记了谁是它的先驱者，但我们认为当某些事情发生在我们身上时，情绪是自动的，但我们实际上构建了这种情绪。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
We have a hand in how we receive the world around us, right?
我们可以影响我们如何看待周围的世界，对吗？
So people can criticize you, but you can take it constructively.
所以人们可以批评你，但你可以建设性地对待它。
The way that you mentally respond to something is huge.
你对某件事的心理反应的方式是巨大的。
So when we're doing a sankalpa, when we're doing yoga nidra, are we burning away samskaras?
所以当我们做桑卡尔帕（sankalpa）时，当我们做瑜伽休息术（yoga nidra）时，我们是在烧掉业力（samskaras）吗？
Sure.
当然。
The samskara is the negative emotional programming, then the adaptation that we made.
桑斯卡拉是负面情绪的编程，然后是我们所做的适应。
So it'll burn that stuff away, so you will be free of that stuff.
所以它会把那些东西烧掉，这样你就摆脱了那些东西。
But that's not what I would do that practice for.
但这不是我练习的目的。
It's really to put a positive thing in there.
这确实是为了把积极的东西放在那里。
And by having a being statement, it may somehow counteract.
通过存在陈述，它可能会以某种方式抵消。
I think this is where my science head, I can't be precise enough.
我认为这就是我的科学头脑，我不够精确。
I sort of know that how a sankalpa works.
我大概知道 sankalpa 是如何运作的。
I've used it for myself.
我自己用过。
I've used it for many patients.
我已经为很多患者使用过它。
It really is about attaining that neuroplasticity.
这实际上是为了获得神经可塑性。
It's about attaining that state of mind, and if you don't get there, it doesn't work.
关键是要达到那种心态，如果你达不到那里，那就行不通。
Then you're just repeating things to yourself, which is why there's such an emphasis on the physiology.
然后你就只是对自己重复一些事情，这就是为什么如此强调生理学。
Because in order to enter into that state of mind, we have to be really precise with what we're doing autonomically, physiologically.
因为为了进入这种精神状态，我们必须非常精确地自主地、生理地做我们正在做的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you think that liminal states between sleep and awake are also a valuable opportunity for people to rewire their beliefs about themselves and engage neuroplasticity?
您是否认为睡眠和清醒之间的阈值状态也是人们重新构建自我信念并进行神经可塑性的宝贵机会？
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
So hypnagogic, hypnopompic hallucinations are good examples of this.
因此，入睡前的幻觉就是很好的例子。
That state is really weird.
那种状态实在是太奇怪了。
So there is one of the 112 techniques that will bring you to enlightenment is to catch the moment of sleep.
所以，有112个能让你开悟的技巧之一就是抓住睡眠的那一刻。
Beautiful technique.
美丽的技术。
Incredibly hard to do.
很难做到。
So this is something that people need to understand.
所以这是人们需要理解的事情。
When we're talking about meditation, I want you all to understand that this is a technique that I did for 12 years before seeing a single result.
当我们谈论冥想时，我希望你们都明白，这是一种我练习了 12 年的技巧，直到看到一个结果。
And this technique will give you, and now we're going completely off the rails, okay?
这个技术会给你，现在我们完全偏离轨道了，好吗？
Will give you a lot of insight into your past lives.
会给你很多关于你前世的洞察力。
So there's something, and we can get into the science of that if you want to.
所以，如果你愿意的话，我们可以深入研究它的科学原理。
But there's something like when people come to me and they say, "Hey, I want to learn about my past lives," the technique that I give them is to focus on the liminal state between consciousness and sleep, and specifically to catch the moment of sleep.
但有些事情就像当人们来找我说，“嘿，我想了解我的前世”时，我给他们的技巧是专注于意识和睡眠之间的阈值状态，特别是捕捉睡眠的时刻。
So to see yourself fall asleep.
所以要看到自己睡着了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I do that in nidra.
所以我在休息时这样做。
I can observe myself falling asleep And I'm aware that I'm falling asleep, but I'm not lucid dreaming.
我可以观察自己睡着了并且我知道我正在睡着，但我没有做清醒梦。
I'm watching myself sleep.
我看着自己睡觉。
And I literally feel like I'm falling.
我真的感觉自己正在坠落。
There's probably some deactivation of the vestibular system or something going on there.
可能是前庭系统失活或者发生了一些事情。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Proprioceptive hallucination.
本体感觉幻觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
So something going on.
所以有些事情正在发生。
What we're talking about here is, to really just break it down, is deeply relaxed state.
我们在这里谈论的是，真正将其分解，是深度放松的状态。
So autonomic tone is very parasympathetic, but alert enough to observe the self.
因此，副交感神经的自主神经张力非常高，但又足够警觉，可以观察自我。
So this is an unusual state, right?
所以这是一个不寻常的状态，对吧？
Because I normally think about the autonomic nervous system like a seesaw, parasympathetic, sympathetic.
因为我通常认为自主神经系统就像跷跷板、副交感神经、交感神经。
So alert, stressed, panic, or asleep, coma, dead, right?
如此警觉、紧张、恐慌，或者睡着了、昏迷、死了，对吧？
And it's going back and forth the entire time we're alive.
在我们活着的整个过程中，它都会来来回回。
But what we're talking about here is a weird kind of bending of the seesaw, where we're both very relaxed and very alert.
但我们在这里谈论的是一种奇怪的跷跷板弯曲，我们既非常放松又非常警觉。
And in that state, the brain is more available for instruction, for editing.
在这种状态下，大脑更容易接受指令和编辑。
Many people, I think, use psychedelics trying to achieve this state.
我认为很多人都使用迷幻药来达到这种状态。
That's one avenue.
这是一条途径。
I think it would be amazing if there were more faster entry points.
我认为如果有更多更快的入口点那就太棒了。
12 years is a long time.
12年是一段很长的时间。
I hear that.
我听到了。
Other people hear that, like, "Oh, shit.
其他人听到这个，就像，“哦，该死。
That's a lot of meditating before I get-
在我得到之前我已经进行了很多冥想——
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
where I want to be." But do you think that there's opportunity for Nidra and, excuse me, Shunya, the void meditation, to be valuable in the short term as well?
我想去哪里。”但是你认为 Nidra 和 Shunya（虚空冥想）在短期内也有机会发挥价值吗？
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
This is one of the 112 tantric techniques.
这是密续112法之一。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Ah, it's just that technique.
啊，就是这个技术。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
That's a really hard one because it has no preparatory practice.
这是一件非常困难的事情，因为它没有任何准备练习。
It has no physiology to it.
它没有生理学意义。
It's just catch the moment of sleep.
它只是捕捉睡眠的时刻。
That's it.
就是这样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
So that technique is normally if you've trained yourself, then you can do it, but it's really hard to do just-
所以这个技术通常是如果你自己训练过，那么你就可以做到，但是真的很难做到——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
...
...
off the cuff.
即兴。
Nidra is very helpful from the get-go, right?
Nidra 从一开始就非常有帮助，对吗？
So from an autonomic nervous system standpoint, very helpful.
所以从自主神经系统的角度来看，非常有帮助。
We tend to be hyper sympathetically activated, so Yoga Nidra is very good for parasympathetic activation.
我们的交感神经往往会过度活跃，因此瑜伽休息术对于副交感神经的激活非常有效。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yoga Nidra is also very good for the rotation of your somatosensory cortex.
瑜伽休息术对于体感皮层的旋转也非常有好处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
So we have this idea of the homunculus.
所以我们就有了人造人的想法。
That's not really what it is.
事实并非如此。
And we can, if I'm wrong-
如果我错了，我们可以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The map of self.
自我的地图。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Right?
对吗？
So really what it is, your somatosensory cortex is plastic.
事实上，你的体感皮层是塑料的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
And when you do rotations of awareness through your body, it's really good for you.
当你通过身体进行意识旋转时，这对你来说确实有好处。
Really helps with things like chronic pain.
确实有助于缓解慢性疼痛等问题。
So in chronic pain, what happens is patients, their somatosensory cortex is literally locked into the part of their body that's in pain.
因此，在慢性疼痛中，患者的体感皮层实际上被锁定在身体疼痛的部分。
People think that...
人们认为...
And it's a self-reinforcing thing where something hurts, so your brain is thinking about it, and the more that your brain thinks about it, the more that it hurts.
这是一种自我强化的事情，有些东西会伤害你，所以你的大脑会思考它，你的大脑思考它越多，它就越伤害。
So Nidra is really good from the get-go, and that's where I sort of think about the benefits of meditation as, first of all, scientific to woo woo.
所以，尼德拉从一开始就非常好，这就是我认为冥想的好处的地方，首先，科学地吸引人。
This we know works.
我们知道这是有效的。
This we have no clue.
这我们没有任何线索。
In my personal journey, it's been really weird.
在我个人的旅程中，这真的很奇怪。
So I was brought to this weird mystical stuff, like kicking and screaming, where once you're meditating one day and you have a memory from your past life, you sit there and you're like, "What the fuck is that?
所以我被带到了这种奇怪神秘的东西，比如踢腿和尖叫，有一天你在冥想，你有前世的记忆，你坐在那里，你会想，“那是什么他妈的？
Is this a hallucination?
这是幻觉吗？
Is this some form of genetic memory?
这是某种形式的遗传记忆吗？
Is this epigenetic memory?
这是表观遗传记忆吗？
What is this?" I have no idea.
这是什么？”我不知道。
So I'm not saying that past lives even exist.
所以我并不是说前世存在。
All I'm saying is that there are things that maybe some people can do that will give you the illusion of a past life.
我想说的是，有些人也许可以做一些事情，让你产生前世的幻觉。
That's all we know, right?
这就是我们所知道的，对吧？
And this is where I think a lot of people are very unscientific because they say, "If I have a memory of something that didn't happen, that means it hap-" No, it didn't.
这就是我认为很多人非常不科学的地方，因为他们说，“如果我对没有发生的事情有记忆，那就意味着它会……”不，它没有。
The human brain constructs memory all the time.
人脑一直在构建记忆。
Most of our memory is stuff that didn't happen, actually, technically.
我们的大部分记忆实际上都是技术上没有发生的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have to say, I don't want to interrupt your flow, but I just have to say because I'm feeling it.
我不得不说，我不想打断你的流程，但我不得不说，因为我感觉到了。
I'm not saying this to make you feel good, but if it does, great.
我这么说并不是为了让你感觉良好，但如果确实如此，那就太好了。
You're one of the more intellectually supple people I've ever encountered.
你是我遇到过的最聪明的人之一。
I hope that lands because I've been around a lot of well-educated people and a lot of practitioners, everything from former Mr. Olympias to Rick Rubin to David Cho.
我希望这能实现，因为我周围有很多受过良好教育的人和很多从业者，从前奥林匹亚斯先生到里克·鲁宾再到大卫·曹。
Martha Beck, who has three degrees from Harvard, but talks about spiritual downloads.
玛莎·贝克拥有哈佛大学的三个学位，但她谈论的是精神下载。
And I have to say, I feel what's missing from health, public health, mental health, physical health, performance broadly speaking, is this ability to understand how the ancient practices are really of benefit, where the neuroscience and other forms of science can explain it, but also to acknowledge that even where we don't have mechanistic understanding, there's value in the practices.
我不得不说，我觉得从广义上讲，健康、公共卫生、心理健康、身体健康、表现中缺少的是这种理解古代实践如何真正有益的能力，神经科学和其他形式的科学可以解释它，但也要承认即使我们没有机械性的理解，这些实践也有价值。
I really believe that the healing that everyone wants so badly for themselves and for the world, I really believe that most people want that, resides in this business of going inward, that we can only do for ourselves and seeing where our bullshit is, burning it down, and unlearning the stuff that makes us unkind to ourselves and others, and unproductive.
我真的相信，每个人都非常希望自己和世界得到治愈，我真的相信大多数人都希望这种治愈，就在于向内走，我们只能为自己做，看看我们的废话在哪里，把它烧掉，忘掉那些让我们对自己和他人不友善、低效的东西。
I think one of the dangers in discussions around yoga and these things is some people will think, okay, this is navel-gazing.
我认为围绕瑜伽和这些事情进行讨论的危险之一是有些人会认为，好吧，这是一种自我封闭。
This is all me stuff.
这都是我的东西。
You just got to get out into the world and do stuff.
你只需要走出去，走出去，做一些事情。
But when we hosted James Hollis, 84-year-old Jungian analyst, he said there are two things that are critical to a good life, if I may.
但当我们接待 84 岁的荣格分析师詹姆斯·霍利斯 (James Hollis) 时，他说，如果可以的话，有两件事对于美好生活至关重要。
He said, "Every day you have to shut up." These are his words.
他说：“每天你都必须闭嘴。”这是他的话。
He said, "You got to shut up," meaning no whining.
他说，“你必须闭嘴”，意思是不要抱怨。
Be grateful.
心存感激。
You need to suit up, meaning you need to prepare for your roles in life, and then you need to show up to your roles in life.
你需要穿正装，这意味着你需要为你在生活中的角色做好准备，然后你需要展现你在生活中的角色。
But you also need to spend some time getting out of stimulus and response, going inward, and really touching in with what he called your genuine heart's desires.
但你也需要花一些时间摆脱刺激和反应，走向内心，真正触及他所说的你内心深处的渴望。
And when he said that, I thought like ...
当他这么说时，我想...
perfect.
完美。
This is the ambition, the doing, the getting things done in life that we have to do because no one wants to be the loser you described earlier.
这就是我们在生活中必须要做的野心、行动、完成事情，因为没有人想成为你之前描述的失败者。
No one wants to be that person.
没有人想成为那样的人。
And at the same time, many people think they want to be, but nobody wants to be the person that sold the company, got the marriage and the kids, and is miserable because they took a path that wasn't really for them, that they should've done that with someone else.
与此同时，很多人认为他们想成为这样的人，但没有人愿意成为那个卖掉公司、得到婚姻和孩子的人，并且因为他们走了一条并不真正适合他们的道路而感到痛苦，他们应该和其他人一起这样做。
They literally have the wrong-- No one would say they have the wrong kids, but they have the wrong life.
他们确实做错了——没有人会说他们生了错误的孩子，但他们的生活是错误的。
Right?
正确的？
And so I think that what you're describing is the roadmap, and it involves this going inward.
所以我认为你所描述的是路线图，它涉及到向内走。
And I think that the language around yogic practices for Westerners is the separator.
我认为西方人关于瑜伽练习的语言是分隔符。
It's where people brace and they go, "What are they really talking about here?" And so as a practitioner in the West with this Eastern mindset woven in, how do you bring that to your patients?
人们在这里做好准备，然后问：“他们在这里到底在说什么？”那么，作为一名融入了东方思维的西方从业者，您如何将这种理念带给您的患者呢？
How do you convince them that this is the path?
你如何让他们相信这是一条路？
Because I really believe it is the path, and I think it's actually the most important thing that any of us can do for ourselves.
因为我真的相信这就是道路，而且我认为这实际上是我们任何人能为自己做的最重要的事情。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
First thing is, I don't try to convince anyone of anything.
首先，我不会试图说服任何人任何事情。
So convincing is not an objective that I have.
所以令人信服并不是我的目标。
So I love research, consume a bunch of research, but there's a basic problem with science, which is when we do a randomized controlled trial, we learn about a population, we don't learn about a person.
所以我喜欢研究，进行大量研究，但科学有一个基本问题，那就是当我们进行随机对照试验时，我们了解的是一个群体，而不是一个人。
So we can say that SSRIs improve major depressive disorder by about 50%, let's say.
因此，我们可以说 SSRI 可以改善重度抑郁症约 50%。
But if a patient walks into my office, I have no idea if an SSRI is going to help them.
但如果病人走进我的办公室，我不知道 SSRI 是否会对他们有帮助。
Does that kind of make sense?
这样有道理吗？
There's a basic problem of external validity of all of our science, all of our medical science anyway.
我们所有的科学，无论如何，我们所有的医学都存在一个基本的外部有效性问题。
I'm not sure about opto- or neuroscience.
我不确定光学科学或神经科学。
But when you apply it to a person, some stuff works and some stuff doesn't work.
但当你把它应用到一个人身上时，有些东西有效，有些东西不起作用。
So my focus is on helping a person.
所以我的重点是帮助一个人。
And then you don't need the woo-woo stuff.
然后你就不需要那些呜呜的东西了。
I think the important thing is understand your ego.
我认为重要的是了解你的自我。
That's a fundamental thing that is missing from Western psychology.
这是西方心理学所缺失的一个基本的东西。
But we all intuitively understand it.
但我们都直观地理解它。
This person is egotistical, right?
这个人很自私吧？
Second thing is things like perception.
第二件事是诸如感知之类的事情。
Understand your perception.
了解您的看法。
Your perception, and you were talking about the Internet.
你的看法，你正在谈论互联网。
The basic problem with the Internet is that it has allowed human beings to no longer live in the same world.
互联网的根本问题是它让人类不再生活在同一个世界。
This is where AI is even worse.
这就是人工智能更糟糕的地方。
So the more algorithmic you are-- So the problem with an algorithm is it shapes your perception.
所以你的算法越多——所以算法的问题在于它塑造了你的感知。
It radicalizes your perception.
它使你的看法变得激进。
So an algorithm shows you thing one, and then it'll only show you things in that tunnel.
因此，算法会向您显示第一个内容，然后它只会向您显示该隧道中的内容。
Does that kind of make sense?
这样有道理吗？
So you go further and further down the tunnel, and you are living in a different world than everybody else is living in.
所以你在隧道里越走越远，你生活在一个与其他人不同的世界。
AI is even worse at this, which is why it's really scary, but there's a first case report of really AI-induced psychosis in a patient that did not have any history of psychosis.
人工智能在这方面更糟糕，这就是为什么它真的很可怕，但有第一个病例报告，确实是人工智能诱发了精神病，患者没有任何精神病史。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How does that even come about?
这是怎么发生的？
What are they talking to the AI about?
他们在和人工智能谈论什么？
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
We can get into that if you want.
如果你愿意的话我们可以讨论这个问题。
It's actually really scary, but we know the mechanism.
这实际上很可怕，但我们知道其中的机制。
So here's the cool thing about this case report.
这就是这个案例报告的有趣之处。
This person got hospitalized for psychosis, was started on an antipsychotic.
此人因精神病住院，开始服用抗精神病药物。
Psychosis resolves.
精神病解决了。
They get discharged, stop the antipsychotic, start to use AI again, and become psychotic again.
他们出院，停止服用抗精神病药物，再次开始使用人工智能，然后再次变得精神病。
It's really scary.
真的很可怕。
And the basic problem is that AI is so sycophantic.
基本问题是人工智能太阿谀奉承。
Our reality testing of the world requires contrary opinions.
我们对世界的现实检验需要相反的意见。
Right?
正确的？
So when you're like, "Hey, I have this idea.
所以当你说，“嘿，我有这个想法。
I want to throw something by you." And then I say, "No."
我想把东西扔到你身边。”然后我说：“不。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
So how do we know what reality is?
那么我们如何知道现实是什么？
Because we have this perception, but this person has this perception, this person has this perception.
因为我们有这个认知，但是这个人有这个认知，这个人有这个认知。
So we modulate our perception.
所以我们调节我们的感知。
"Hey, I got you a gift." "No, you didn't." "What?
“嘿，我给你准备了一份礼物。” “不，你没有。” “什么？
I told you yesterday that I was going to pick this up." "No, you didn't tell me that." So we stay in reality because we get signals from reality.
我昨天就告诉过你我要接这个。” “不，你没有告诉我这个。”所以我们留在现实中，因为我们从现实中得到信号。
The thing about the AIs is they're language learning models.
人工智能的特点是它们是语言学习模型。
They don't actually know anything.
他们实际上什么都不知道。
All they do is scrape the Internet.
他们所做的就是抓取互联网。
This is a simplification.
这是一个简化。
I'm not a data scientist or AI engineer, but here's my understanding because people wanted to build a Dr. K chatbot, and I tried to get into understanding the mechanism.
我不是数据科学家或人工智能工程师，但这是我的理解，因为人们想要构建一个 Dr. K 聊天机器人，而我试图了解其中的机制。
What an AI does is it just says a word, and then it tries to figure out which words are going to make you happy.
人工智能所做的只是说一个词，然后它会尝试找出哪些词会让你开心。
That's how it knows what's right or wrong.
这就是它如何知道什么是对或错的。
The user satisfaction is the ultimate thing that they're going for.
用户的满意是他们追求的最终目标。
So there's a lot of data that shows that literally, there's a really cool paper, I can send it to you later, but that shows that the number of statements that you have, the more sycophantic it becomes and the more paranoid people will become.
所以有很多数据表明，从字面上看，有一篇非常酷的论文，我可以稍后将其发送给你，但这表明你拥有的陈述数量越多，它就会变得越多，人们就会变得越偏执。
So there's another case of someone who murdered their mom and then committed suicide because as they expressed concerns about their mom, the AI reinforces that and says, "Yeah, you're right.
还有另一个案例，有人谋杀了他们的母亲，然后自杀，因为当他们表达对母亲的担忧时，人工智能强化了这一点，并说：“是的，你是对的。
These people are leaving you out." Right?
这些人正在把你排除在外。”正确的？
Because it's trying to make you feel good.
因为它试图让你感觉良好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Why'd they kill themselves?
他们为什么自杀？
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
I don't know the full details of the case.
我不知道案件的全部细节。
And this is what's really scary about the AI stuff is people will say, right, so a lot of people will make the claim, "Oh, yeah, if you're mentally unwell and then you use AI." So a lot of AI companies will say people who are high risk will use the AI, and it activates their delusions.
这就是人工智能真正可怕的地方，人们会说，是的，所以很多人会说，“哦，是的，如果你精神不舒服，那么你就使用人工智能。”所以很多人工智能公司会说高风险的人会使用人工智能，这会激活他们的妄想。
But Andrew, here's what's really scary.
但是安德鲁，这才是真正可怕的。
In order to make that, I don't know if this makes sense, this is a kind of read my mind question, but in order to say only at-risk people will become psychotic from AI, what data do you need to make that statement?
为了做到这一点，我不知道这是否有意义，这是一种读心术问题，但为了说只有高危人群才会因人工智能而变得精神病，你需要什么数据来做出这样的说法？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think you need people to be harmed by AI to have that basis.
我认为你需要人们受到人工智能的伤害才能有这个基础。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So in my mind, from a clinical perspective, in order to make the claim that AI only makes vulnerable people psychotic, mentally ill people psychotic, you need to have your control group-
所以在我看来，从临床角度来看，为了声称人工智能只会让弱势群体变得精神病，精神病患者变得精神病，你需要让你的对照组——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
...
...
which is people who are not mentally ill.
这是没有精神病的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
You need to have your intervention group, which is people who are mentally ill.
你需要有一个干预小组，他们是精神病患者。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
You need to give them an intervention, and you need to measure their psychosis at the other end.
你需要给他们干预，你需要在另一端衡量他们的精神病。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
No AI company I've ever heard of has ever done that.
我听说过的人工智能公司都没有这样做过。
Does that make sense?
这有道理吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Fundamentally, they are not ...
从根本上来说，他们并不...
determining ahead of time whether this person is mentally ill or not.
提前确定此人是否患有精神疾病。
And they're not monitoring psychosis.
而且他们没有监测精神病。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I think the studies that have not been done, at least not until recently, that needed to be done and desperately need to be done, is to evaluate what are the neuroplastic changes that are caused by social media and AI.
嗯，我认为尚未完成的研究，至少直到最近才完成，需要完成并且迫切需要完成的研究是评估社交媒体和人工智能引起的神经可塑性变化。
These are the digital anvils that we're shaping, especially young brains on.
这些是我们正在塑造的数字砧，尤其是年轻人的大脑。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And now we're surprised, like, oh, from 2010 to 2025, everyone's been using progressively more social media, online more, and oh, we got brain rot, and surprise.
现在我们很惊讶，哦，从 2010 年到 2025 年，每个人都越来越多地使用社交媒体，更多地上网，哦，我们脑子烂了，令人惊讶。
Well, no, there's this thing called plasticity that we knew about.
嗯，不，我们知道有一种叫做可塑性的东西。
It's just we didn't understand how the brain-
只是我们不明白大脑是如何-
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
gets modified on these platforms, on these algorithms.
在这些平台、这些算法上进行修改。
And instead, it was like we were so focused on the content, but not the algorithmic underpinnings of the content.
相反，我们似乎非常关注内容，而不是内容的算法基础。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Excellent.
太棒了。
So I am convinced there is not great data because it's early, but I am convinced that basically, because we know this from basic psychology, right?
所以我确信没有很好的数据，因为现在还为时过早，但我相信基本上是这样，因为我们从基础心理学中知道这一点，对吗？
AI is basically like a cult of one.
人工智能基本上就像是一种崇拜。
You get indoctrinated in your own thoughts.
你被灌输了自己的想法。
So whatever you say to the AI is what the AI will tell you back.
所以无论你对人工智能说什么，人工智能都会告诉你什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is the narcissism.
这就是自恋。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
It is.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What you described before, the AI becoming more sycophantic, the person getting more paranoid, you know the image that was in my mind?
你之前描述的，人工智能变得更加阿谀奉承，人变得更加偏执，你知道我脑海中的画面吗？
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
What?
什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Was an eccentric billionaire who can control everything in their environment, but is terrified and is controlling of everything because they feel like they're vulnerable if they don't.
是一位古怪的亿万富翁，他可以控制环境中的一切，但又感到害怕并控制一切，因为他们觉得如果不这样做就会很脆弱。
That's exactly what you described-
这正是你所描述的——
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
AI is doing to essentially everyone.
人工智能基本上正在影响每个人。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
And we'll see it also not only in the billionaire.
我们不仅会在亿万富翁身上看到这一点。
There are some cool studies that show basically who's at risk.
有一些很酷的研究基本上显示了谁处于危险之中。
So it's really fascinating what the risk factors are.
因此，风险因素确实令人着迷。
The amount of usage is huge, so the more you use AI, the more likely this is to happen to you.
使用量巨大，所以你使用AI越多，这种情况发生在你身上的可能性就越大。
But I kid you not, I'm not trying to be alarmist.
但我没有骗你，我并不是危言耸听。
As a psychiatrist, when someone comes into my office, I ask them, "Do you use meth?" Because I'm trying to assess their risk of becoming psychotic based on something that is not schizophrenia or type one bipolar disease.
作为一名精神科医生，当有人走进我的办公室时，我会问他们：“你使用冰毒吗？”因为我试图根据精神分裂症或一型双相情感障碍以外的疾病来评估他们患精神病的风险。
Now I'm starting to ask people, "Do you use AI?
现在我开始问人们：“你们使用人工智能吗？
How much?" So I'll ask them these questions.
多少钱？”所以我会问他们这些问题。
How much do you use AI?
你对人工智能的使用程度如何？
Do you customize the AI to be more effective for what you want?
您是否会定制人工智能以使其更有效地满足您的需求？
So this is what's really scary, is this is what people call prompt engineering, right?
所以这才是真正可怕的，这就是人们所说的即时工程，对吗？
Do you train the AI to give you more effective answers?
您是否训练人工智能为您提供更有效的答案？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Do you use the AI for mental health issues?
您使用人工智能来解决心理健康问题吗？
And do you find that the AI's answers are far superior to humans?
你是否发现人工智能的答案远远优于人类？
And these are four of the seven proposed risk factors for bad outcomes from AI.
这些是人工智能造成不良后果的七个拟议风险因素中的四个。
And the crazy thing is this is the use case, right?
疯狂的是这就是用例，对吗？
We want people to be using AI more.
我们希望人们更多地使用人工智能。
The whole point is that AI is better than other people.
重点是人工智能比其他人更好。
I'm going to use prompt engineering.
我将使用即时工程。
And in my community, there's a lot of mental illness and a lot of mental struggles, so a lot of people will use AI.
在我的社区里，有很多精神疾病和很多精神斗争，所以很多人会使用人工智能。
And it's really scary that the use case is the risk factor.
真正可怕的是用例是风险因素。
And I really think that there's a chance, I don't think AI is evil or all bad or anything like that, but I think we really could be looking at 60 years from now, we're going to be looking back and we're going to be talking about AI the way that we talk about nicotine and tobacco.
我真的认为有机会，我不认为人工智能是邪恶的或全是坏的或类似的东西，但我认为我们真的可以在 60 年后回顾，我们将回顾过去，我们将像谈论尼古丁和烟草一样谈论人工智能。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm letting that sink in.
我要让这一点深入人心。
When I think about the algorithm being the thing that shapes the brain, the analogy that pops to mind is, if I want to change a nervous system, I don't care if it's a rat, cat, monkey, bat, or human-
当我想到算法是塑造大脑的东西时，我脑海中浮现的类比是，如果我想改变神经系统，我不在乎它是老鼠、猫、猴子、蝙蝠还是人类——
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
I know what you're going to say, yeah
我知道你要说什么，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I'm going to spike adrenaline, and I'm going to provide an experience.
我会刺激肾上腺素，我会提供一种体验。
These experiments have been done by James McGaugh and others over many years.
这些实验是詹姆斯·麦高和其他人多年来所做的。
I can give an animal or a person a terrifying experience, give them a beta blocker, and their memory for it-
我可以给动物或人一次可怕的经历，给他们β受体阻滞剂，以及他们对此的记忆——
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
They won't learn, yeah
他们不会学习，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
their memory for it will be meager, if any.
他们对此的记忆即使有的话也是微乎其微的。
If I don't, they're going to have a very salient memory.
如果我不这样做，他们就会有非常清晰的记忆。
It's that one-pointedness that you referred to.
就是你说的那种专一性。
So spiking adrenaline is the opportunity to create plasticity.
因此，肾上腺素的飙升是创造可塑性的机会。
Turns out, so is spiking dopamine.
事实证明，多巴胺的增加也是如此。
So is spiking acetylcholine.
加标乙酰胆碱也是如此。
Turns out that there's this kind of equality to all the neuromodulators.
事实证明，所有神经调节剂都是平等的。
If you can create a high amount of arousal or an unusual state, you can modify the brain for some period of time.
如果你能创造出大量的兴奋或不寻常的状态，你就可以在一段时间内改变大脑。
I feel like what was never thought about until recently is that when we scroll social media or we are on the Internet, we're getting pulsed, like you said earlier.
我觉得直到最近才想到的是，当我们滚动社交媒体或上网时，我们会感到脉动，就像您之前所说的那样。
We're getting pulsed with typically norepinephrine, epinephrine, right?
我们通常会受到去甲肾上腺素、肾上腺素的刺激，对吗？
And so it makes perfect sense that the plasticity is both for what we're observing, but also for the action of scrolling and going through the wheel of experience that you described earlier.
因此，可塑性既适用于我们所观察到的内容，也适用于滚动和浏览您之前描述的经验之轮的动作，这是完全有道理的。
The puppy, the explosion, the political thing, the opportunity to make money, the relationship thing, and then repeat.
小狗、爆炸、政治事情、赚钱的机会、关系事情，然后重复。
And surely, the platforms knew this.
当然，平台也知道这一点。
And I don't think they're diabolical in the sense that they wanted to harm humanity.
我不认为他们是邪恶的，因为他们想要伤害人类。
I don't.
我不知道。
I think that they are businesses, and they wanted to make money.
我认为他们是企业，他们想赚钱。
They wanted to drive engagement.
他们想要提高参与度。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
So many people don't like what I say about AI because they like AI.
很多人不喜欢我所说的人工智能，因为他们喜欢人工智能。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
And I'm also with you.
我也和你在一起。
I don't think the platforms are evil.
我不认为这些平台是邪恶的。
I think they're just not looking at that dimension, right?
我认为他们只是没有考虑这个维度，对吗？
So no one at an AI company is designing a clinical trial to be run through the FDA to measure.
因此，人工智能公司中没有人设计一项由 FDA 进行衡量的临床试验。
They're just not measuring safety issues, as far as I know.
据我所知，他们只是没有衡量安全问题。
Not at the level that we do when we're looking at pharmacology.
还没有达到我们研究药理学时的水平。
I think these people are someone, and I've worked with so many people who work at YouTube and Meta and stuff like that, Twitch.
我认为这些人都是一些人，而且我和很多在 YouTube、Meta 和 Twitch 等公司工作的人一起工作过。
And I don't think they're bad, evil people.
我不认为他们是坏人、邪恶的人。
This is a very black or white thinking induced by social media content, where all these companies are evil, or they're totally fine.
这是由社交媒体内容引发的一种非黑即白的思维，所有这些公司都是邪恶的，或者他们完全没问题。
No, it's like-
不，这就像——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, I know some of the founders and owners of these companies and platforms well, and I think they are benevolent people.
不，我很了解这些公司和平台的一些创始人和所有者，我认为他们都是仁慈的人。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
And I think a lot of times, they're just like, okay, if I'm Instagram Reels, and I'm a programmer, a developer there, and someone's like, okay- ...
我想很多时候，他们会说，好吧，如果我是 Instagram Reels，我是一名程序员，那里的开发人员，而有人会说，好吧 - ...
this amount of the market share is TikTok.
这个份额的市场份额是TikTok。
How do we bring those TikTok users over here, right?
我们如何将这些 TikTok 用户带到这里，对吗？
It's like if I have a car, and it's like how do I get someone who buys a different kind of car to buy my car?
这就像如果我有一辆车，我如何让购买不同类型汽车的人购买我的汽车？
That's just what business is.
这就是生意的本质。
I don't think they're evil.
我不认为他们是邪恶的。
I think what they're doing, and this is how humanity works, right?
我认为他们正在做的事情，这就是人类的运作方式，对吗？
So it's like we invent something, and then we figure out afterward that it's harmful.
这就像我们发明了一些东西，然后我们发现它是有害的。
So I don't think people should stop using AI by any means, but I think that what I'm most concerned about is that the health effects are a lot more causal-
所以我认为人们不应该以任何方式停止使用人工智能，但我认为我最担心的是它对健康的影响更具因果性——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
...
...
as opposed to uncovering.
而不是揭露。
I think there's starting to be some pretty startling data behind that.
我认为这背后开始有一些相当惊人的数据。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what do you recommend for young men and women, or older men and women around two things, around social media use, AI use, and we have to talk about pornography.
那么，围绕社交媒体的使用、人工智能的使用，以及我们必须谈论的色情内容，您对年轻男女或老年男女有什么建议。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So let's talk about social media use.
那么我们来谈谈社交媒体的使用。
Do you believe that people should have prescriptions of amount of time, types of interactions they have or won't have?
您是否认为人们应该对他们进行或不进行的时间、互动类型进行规定？
I realize it's hard to create a blanket statement there.
我意识到很难在那里创建一个笼统的声明。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
No, no, no. It's not that it's hard to, it's that this is a whole other podcast.
不，不，不。并不是说这很难，而是这是一个完全不同的播客。
So I've studied this-
所以我研究了这个——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We're definitely going to have to have you back.
我们肯定需要让你回来。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We've got a lot of conversations.
我们有很多谈话。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
So there's so much nuance to this because social media is not uniform in the way that it affects your brain.
因此，这其中存在很多细微差别，因为社交媒体对大脑的影响方式并不统一。
So, right?
那么，对吧？
That's the number one thing.
这是第一件事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
So just because all drugs of abuse are in some way dopaminergic does not mean that their effects are uniform on the brain.
因此，仅仅因为所有滥用药物在某种程度上都具有多巴胺能，并不意味着它们对大脑的影响是一致的。
So first thing about use of social media, I think a big thing that people miss, so there's some common stuff that's like, "Just use it less, bro." What a lot of people miss is the mental state that you are in when you use it determines a lot.
所以关于使用社交媒体的第一件事，我认为人们错过了一件大事，所以有一些常见的东西，比如“少用一点，兄弟。”很多人忽略的是，你使用它时的心理状态决定了很多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Right?
对吗？
So if you are feeling bad and you use social media, you're primed for salience.
因此，如果你感觉不好并且使用社交媒体，那么你就已经做好了引人注目的准备。
You will be programmed more, right?
你会被编程更多，对吗？
So this is where people who use it as a form of emotional regulation, big problem.
所以这就是那些用它作为情绪调节形式的人的大问题。
Another interesting thing about social media, when to not use it.
关于社交媒体的另一个有趣的事情是，什么时候不使用它。
So you require a certain amount of frontal lobe function, executive function, and willpower in order to fall asleep.
因此，你需要一定的额叶功能、执行功能和意志力才能入睡。
You need to be able to suppress your impulses in order to be able to go to sleep.
您需要能够抑制自己的冲动才能入睡。
Don't use social media before you go to bed, and the main reason for that is if you use social media to the point where you've missed your sleep window, then it's very hard to fall asleep because now your brain doesn't have enough willpower, and this is what happens to people.
睡觉前不要使用社交媒体，主要原因是如果你使用社交媒体到了错过睡眠窗口的程度，那么就很难入睡，因为现在你的大脑没有足够的意志力，而这就是人们发生的情况。
So there's a really interesting study about procrastination before bed, and what the study found is that there's two kinds of procrastination.
有一项关于睡前拖延的非常有趣的研究，研究发现拖延有两种类型。
There's before bed procrastination, procrastinating going to bed, and then there's in bed procrastination, when you procrastinate going to sleep after you're in bed.
有睡前拖延、拖延上床睡觉，还有床上拖延，即上床后拖延睡觉。
So don't use it when you're not feeling good.
所以当你感觉不舒服时不要使用它。
Don't use it before bed, especially because you're going to miss that window, and then it's going to mess you up for the next day.
不要在睡觉前使用它，尤其是因为你会错过那个窗口，然后它会让你第二天陷入困境。
You'll be more emotionally fried, more emotionally vulnerable.
你会更加情绪激动，更加脆弱。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like the hour before bed?
比如睡前一小时？
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Just nowhere near bed.
就是离床不远。
There's the blue light stuff, but I think don't miss your sleep window.
虽然有蓝光之类的东西，但我想不要错过你的睡眠时间。
That's been such a useful clinical revelation when I'm working with a human being.
当我与人类一起工作时，这是一个非常有用的临床启示。
Because if you get past 10:30 and you're on your phone, then it's going to become 12:30 because you no longer have the frontal lobe function to be able to stop yourself.
因为如果你过了 10:30 还在玩手机，那么时间就会变成 12:30，因为你不再有额叶功能来阻止自己。
That's the second thing.
这是第二件事。
Third thing is understand that your brain is, how can I say this?
第三件事是了解你的大脑是什么，我该怎么说？
You are developing the standards for yourself through social media.
您正在通过社交媒体为自己制定标准。
So we're seeing a rise in body dysmorphia.
所以我们看到身体畸形的增加。
So this is interesting because it used to be that body dysmorphia was more common in women than men.
这很有趣，因为过去身体畸形在女性中比男性更常见。
We're starting to see that even out, especially as we have all these alpha male influencers.
我们开始看到这一点的平衡，特别是因为我们拥有所有这些阿尔法男性影响者。
What you see is going to be your standard.
你所看到的将成为你的标准。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'll put alpha in air quotes there.
我会将 alpha 放在空气引号中。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So everyone's expectations for what they should be.
所以每个人对自己应该有的期望。
So I went to Germany recently, and I had my kids there.
所以我最近去了德国，我的孩子也在那里。
And we went to a spa, and there were a lot of-- We went in the middle of the day, so we were on vacation, but everybody else is at school and whatnot.
我们去了水疗中心，那里有很多——我们是在中午去的，所以我们正在度假，但其他人都在学校之类的。
There were a bunch of old German people there, and old German people in swimsuits are not the most attractive human beings on the planet.
那里有一群德国老人，而穿着泳装的德国老人并不是地球上最有魅力的人类。
And my kids were kind of surprised because there's just a lot of German people who are old.
我的孩子们有点惊讶，因为德国有很多老人。
But this is what normal people look like, and we've forgotten what normal people look like.
但这就是正常人的样子，而我们已经忘记了正常人的样子。
We've forgotten what normal is, and the more time that you spend on social media, the more you will be divorced from normal.
我们已经忘记了什么是正常，你花在社交媒体上的时间越多，你就越脱离正常。
So I'd say those are the three things.
所以我想说的是这三件事。
And sure, if you want to use it less, use it less.
当然，如果你想少用它，那就少用它。
The less you use it, the better off you're going to be.
您使用它的次数越少，您的生活就会越好。
But I'm sure everyone has said that a thousand times.
但我相信每个人都已经说过一千遍了。
I think what people don't realize is that the impact of it is not always uniform, that your psychological vulnerabilities, and people know this.
我认为人们没有意识到的是，它的影响并不总是统一的，你的心理脆弱性，人们知道这一点。
If you've ever stalked your ex after they get together with somebody else, people know what I mean, right?
如果你曾经在你的前任和其他人在一起后跟踪过他们，人们就会明白我的意思，对吧？
Your ex is now dating someone else, and then you look at their pictures, and you look at all their pictures, and you make yourself feel worse.
你的前任现在正在和别人约会，然后你看他们的照片，你看他们所有的照片，你让自己感觉更糟。
Don't use it when you're vulnerable.
当你脆弱的时候不要使用它。
That's huge.
那是巨大的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I realize that my statement about alpha males in air quotes, I want to be very specific, not to protect feelings at all because no one I'm about to talk about needs protection for their feelings.
我意识到我关于空气中的阿尔法男性的陈述，我想要非常具体，根本不是为了保护感情，因为我要谈论的没有人需要保护他们的感情。
But I think there are some incredible male educators and examples online, of people who are showing up in different aspects of their life in really spectacular ways.
但我认为网上有一些令人难以置信的男性教育家和例子，他们以非常壮观的方式出现在生活的不同方面。
Good friend Jocko Willink, for instance, right?
例如，好朋友乔科·威林克，对吗？
I think he has a ton to offer.
我认为他有很多东西可以提供。
My friend Ken Rideout has a ton to offer.
我的朋友肯·赖德奥特 (Ken Rideout) 有很多东西可以提供。
There are many, many great examples.
有很多很多很好的例子。
The people I was referring to in air quotes was in reference to this kind of newer trend of looksmaxing as-
我在空中引用中提到的人是指这种新的外观最大化趋势——
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it relates to what you're talking about, about this over-obsession, in my opinion, on looks and on cosmetic perfection, which I do think is Going to be, if it's not already very hazardous for young men, the feeling that even just the idea that variation in looks is being discouraged, that there's sort of this need-
它与你所说的有关，关于这种过度痴迷，在我看来，对外表和化妆品完美的过度痴迷，我确实认为这将会是，如果这对年轻人来说还不是非常危险的话，甚至只是不鼓励外表变化的想法，有某种这种需要-
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
need for everyone to look the same is so very different than how I grew up, where I feel very fortunate that there was a range of different appearances within the scope of healthy that define people's unique characteristics.
每个人都需要看起来相同，这与我的成长方式非常不同，我感到非常幸运，在健康的范围内存在一系列不同的外观，这些外观定义了人们的独特特征。
And now, this looksmaxing thing seems to be all about everyone having this angle of jaw, this cheekbone thing, this type of skin, this type.
现在，这种看起来最大化的东西似乎都是关于每个人都有这种下巴角度、这种颧骨、这种类型的皮肤、这种类型的。
And that's the part where I go like, "Hey, guys, please don't waste your life.
这就是我说的：“嘿，伙计们，请不要浪费你们的生命。
This is a fool's errand."
这是愚蠢的差事。”
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's going to destroy them
这会毁了他们
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
...
...
here's what's really scary.
这才是真正可怕的地方。
So I'm not a couples therapist, but I just made a guide to relationships because everyone in my community is struggling with loneliness.
所以我不是夫妻治疗师，但我只是制作了人际关系指南，因为我社区中的每个人都在与孤独作斗争。
And here's the really scary thing.
这才是真正可怕的事情。
If you look at the research, looks are not that important for a relationship.
如果你看一下研究，就会发现外表对于一段关系来说并不那么重要。
So there's some really fascinating studies on charisma.
因此，有一些关于魅力的非常有趣的研究。
So looks are number six on if you do a multivariate regression analysis.
因此，如果你进行多元回归分析，外表是第六位。
Actually, I don't think it was multivariate, but if you look at the factors of charisma, looks is number six.
事实上，我不认为这是多元的，但如果你看看魅力的因素，外表是第六位。
And if you look at the most charismatic people on the planet, no offense, but Winston Churchill, amazingly charismatic, not the most looksmaxing guy out there.
如果你看看这个星球上最有魅力的人，没有冒犯的意思，但是温斯顿·丘吉尔，具有惊人的魅力，而不是最外貌最出众的人。
You know?
你知道？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
And so I think the really scary thing is that a lot of this information on social media is just wrong.
所以我认为真正可怕的是社交媒体上的很多信息都是错误的。
It's not based in science at all.
它根本没有科学依据。
Like what we talked about with flirting.
就像我们谈论调情一样。
People don't realize if you're flirting with someone and they don't get it, that's actually fine.
人们没有意识到如果你在和某人调情并且他们不明白，那实际上很好。
That's why you have to make three attempts to flirt with someone, statistically.
从统计数据来看，这就是为什么你必须尝试三次与某人调情。
And then you should level up, escalate the signal that you're transmitting.
然后你应该升级，增强你正在传输的信号。
Another really interesting data point, because I'm excited about this, but women who are of average attractiveness and high signaling are more likely to end up in a relationship and be approached than women who are very high attractiveness and low signaling.
另一个非常有趣的数据点，因为我对此感到兴奋，但是具有平均吸引力和高信号传递的女性比具有非常高吸引力和低信号传递的女性更有可能建立关系并被接近。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, could you define signaling?
哦，你能定义信号吗？
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Making it known that you're open for a relationship.
让别人知道你对一段关系持开放态度。
Eye contact, smiling.
目光接触，微笑。
So this is what people don't understand is they think, like, "Okay, if I'm hot, things will happen." That's not how it works at all.
所以人们不明白的是，他们会想，“好吧，如果我很热，事情就会发生。”根本不是这样的。
There's a lot about how to flirt, how to communicate interest, how to be embarrassed, and all of these things are positive things that people don't understand.
有很多关于如何调情、如何表达兴趣、如何感到尴尬的内容，所有这些都是人们不理解的积极事物。
That charisma is about having vision, because if you're looking for a long-term partner and they're trying to figure out, "Can I be with this person?" They have to have a sense of your vision of life to see if they fit with you.
这种魅力在于拥有远见，因为如果你正在寻找一个长期合作伙伴，而他们正在试图弄清楚，“我可以和这个人在一起吗？”他们必须了解你对生活的看法，看看他们是否适合你。
That's actually way more important than looks.
其实这比外表更重要。
The ability to handle adversity, huge element of charisma.
处理逆境的能力，魅力的巨大元素。
So someone wants to know if stuff goes south, can I count on you?
有人想知道事情是否进展顺利，我可以依靠你吗？
Way more important than looks.
远比外表重要。
So the only thing with looks is that in online dating specifically, people will judge based on looks.
所以唯一与外表有关的是，特别是在网上约会中，人们会根据外表来判断。
But there are numerous studies that show, not numerous, actually, one study at least that I've seen, that shows that if your profile indicates purpose, man or woman, it increases your attractiveness.
但有大量研究表明，实际上数量不多，至少我见过的一项研究表明，如果你的个人资料表明了目标，无论是男人还是女人，它都会增加你的吸引力。
So the problem with all the social media stuff is not that it's wrong.
所以所有社交媒体的问题并不在于它是错误的。
I work with a lot of incels.
我和很多非自愿者一起工作。
I work with a lot of beta males.
我和很多测试型男性一起工作。
It's not that they're wrong.
这并不是说他们错了。
It's that they're woefully incomplete.
不幸的是，它们是不完整的。
They haven't done a study of the whole literature.
他们还没有对整个文献进行研究。
Sure, if you're more attractive, it is easier to get dates.
当然，如果你更有吸引力，就更容易约会。
Here's the scariest statistic.
这是最可怕的统计数据。
Drive for muscularity is inversely correlated with length of relationship.
对肌肉发达的渴望与关系的长度成反比。
Right?
正确的？
So the more that if you're watching social media and you're like, "I need to be pumped, I want to be pumped, I want to be pumped, I want to be pumped," that's what drives people away.
因此，如果你在观看社交媒体时，你会说，“我需要被抽动，我想要被抽动，我想要被抽动，我想要被抽动，”这就是驱赶人们的原因。
It's hard to have a relationship with that kind of person.
和这样的人相处是很难的。
So by all means, get muscular, but want it less, which is really interesting, because what I see is people wanting it more.
所以无论如何，要变得肌肉发达，但要少一些，这真的很有趣，因为我看到人们更想要它。
Like looksmaxing, "I want this, I want this, I want this."
就像lookmaxing一样，“我想要这个，我想要这个，我想要这个。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
So deprioritize it.
所以取消它的优先级。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, it's so interesting.
是的，这太有趣了。
The drive and vision thing is, and purpose thing is so interesting because this is one thing where I'm not saying everyone should go into science, but in science, you apprentice yourself to somebody else and then to somebody else as a postdoc, and then eventually whether or not you get to succeed or not as an independent scientist is entirely based not on what you did.
驱动力和愿景以及目标非常有趣，因为我并不是说每个人都应该进入科学领域，但在科学领域，你向别人学徒，然后作为博士后向别人学习，然后最终你作为一名独立科学家是否成功完全取决于你所做的事情。
That's just proof of an ability, right?
这只是能力的证明吧？
It's based on your vision.
这是基于你的愿景。
Like, is there something exciting?
比如，有什么令人兴奋的事情吗？
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that's what we joke in science, every year there's a prom king and a prom queen on the job market, and it's the person who has the most interesting and compelling vision.
这就是我们在科学上开玩笑的，每年就业市场上都会有一个舞会国王和一个舞会女王，而且是拥有最有趣和最引人注目的愿景的人。
That's who you're hiring.
这就是你要雇用的人。
And yes, they tend to have been successful in the past.
是的，他们过去往往是成功的。
You need that, but that's necessary but not sufficient.
你需要它，但这是必要的，但还不够。
It's so important that you're raising this.
你提出这个问题非常重要。
Do you think that young men are indeed falling behind in terms of, we hear this all the time, that they're falling behind their age-matched peers that are women in terms of just sort of life progression?
您是否认为年轻男性确实在生活进步方面落后于同龄女性，我们一直听到这样的说法？
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Oh, absolutely.
哦，绝对是。
I think there's no question of that.
我认为这是毫无疑问的。
So I forget if it was 41% of college graduates are men now.
所以我忘了现在 41% 的大学毕业生是不是男性。
So I think it's really lopsided.
所以我觉得这确实是一边倒的。
I think in 1975, the average age of marriage for a man was 23.8, and now it's 30.8.
我想1975年，男性的平均结婚年龄是23.8岁，现在是30.8岁。
Oh, it's not average, median.
哦，这不是平均数，是中位数。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
So half of the people are actually older than that.
所以有一半的人实际上比这个年龄还要大。
For women, it was 21.1 to 28.4.
女性的比例为 21.1 至 28.4。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People will make financial arguments around that.
人们会围绕这个问题进行财务争论。
I see that a lot.
我经常看到这样的情况。
People will say, "Well, it's very expensive to be able to raise a family," et cetera.
人们会说，“嗯，养家糊口是非常昂贵的”，等等。
That's often what you hear, at least in California.
这就是你经常听到的，至少在加州是这样。
People say that they're waiting because they need to establish a certain level of income.
人们说他们在等待是因为他们需要建立一定的收入水平。
Is that true?
这是真的吗？
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Sure.
当然。
I think that's what people are subjectively feeling.
我想这就是人们的主观感受。
50% of adults under the age of 30 live with their parents now.
现在 50% 30 岁以下的成年人与父母住在一起。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
I forget what the statistic used to be 20 years ago.
我忘记20年前的统计数字是多少了。
So we are absolutely seeing economic difficulties.
所以我们绝对看到了经济困难。
So everything is slowing down Right.
所以一切都在减慢对吧。
But I think that the biggest difference is as a society, men are the one group of people that we expect to help themselves.
但我认为最大的区别是作为一个社会，男性是我们期望自助的一群人。
And I'm not saying women don't deserve help.
我并不是说女性不值得帮助。
So there's some examples of this that I think are not great.
所以有一些我认为不太好的例子。
So there are homeless shelters for every gender, and then there are homeless shelters for women.
因此，每个性别都有无家可归者收容所，也有针对女性的无家可归者收容所。
There are no male-only homeless shelters.
没有男性专用的无家可归者收容所。
I think that's a good example of you don't need a male-only homeless shelter because that's an example of women who are in all-gender homeless shelters are really way more unsafe than if they're on their own.
我认为这是一个很好的例子，说明你不需要一个仅限男性的无家可归者收容所，因为这是一个例子，说明在所有性别的无家可归者收容所中的女性确实比独自一人更不安全。
So that's an example of I don't think everything should be equal between all genders.
这就是我认为所有性别之间不应该一切平等的一个例子。
But I think the challenge is that if you just talk to men, or if you talk about men, there are many things that we'll say, okay, the patriarchy is harmful to both men and women.
但我认为挑战在于，如果你只与男性交谈，或者如果你谈论男性，我们会说很多事情，好吧，父权制对男性和女性都有害。
Fair enough.
很公平。
But what are we going to do societally, systemically, to support the men who are struggling?
但我们要在社会上、系统上做些什么来支持那些正在挣扎的人们呢？
So even though only 41% of people who graduate from college are men, the number of male-only scholarships is really small.
因此，尽管只有 41% 的大学毕业生是男性，但仅限男性的奖学金数量确实很少。
So as a society, it's really interesting.
所以作为一个社会，这真的很有趣。
I think we're not really supporting men in the way that we need to.
我认为我们并没有真正以我们需要的方式支持男性。
Now, a lot of people will hear this as, oh, it is my responsibility as a woman to do things for my husband or boyfriend or whatever.
现在，很多人会听到这样的话，哦，作为一个女人，为我的丈夫或男朋友或其他人做事是我的责任。
I don't think it's women's responsibility.
我不认为这是女性的责任。
I think that's a big problem historically, that women have been responsible for certain aspects of men.
我认为这是历史上的一个大问题，女性对男性的某些方面负有责任。
I think the work that I do and the work you do, the work we do, is to try to help men, women, and everybody else take care of themselves.
我认为我所做的工作、你们所做的工作、我们所做的工作，就是努力帮助男人、女人和其他人照顾好自己。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
But I do think there's plenty of data that suggests that men are falling behind.
但我确实认为有大量数据表明男性正在落后。
If you look at rates of addiction, deaths of despair, this is a really interesting scientific measure that came a lot out of the UK.
如果你看看成瘾率和绝望死亡率，就会发现这是一项非常有趣的科学衡量标准，很多都来自英国。
These are basically deaths that relate to suicide.
这些基本上都是与自杀有关的死亡。
Male suicide rates are four times what they are for women.
男性自杀率是女性的四倍。
So it's interesting.
所以这很有趣。
Now, hopefully, this is changing, but when I was in residency, we had women's mental health clinics.
现在，希望这种情况正在改变，但当我担任住院医师时，我们有女性心理健康诊所。
We didn't have male mental health clinics.
我们没有男性心理健康诊所。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do men in relationships, are they protected from some of the negative effects-
处于恋爱关系中的男人是否能够免受一些负面影响？
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Oh, yeah
哦，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that you're describing?
你所描述的？
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
This is fascinating.
这很有趣。
So do you know what takotsubo cardiomyopathy is?
那么你知道什么是章鱼壶心肌病吗？
Have you heard of this?
你听说过这个吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is when people die of a broken heart?
这就是人们因心碎而死的时候吗？
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So this is what's really fascinating.
这才是真正令人着迷的地方。
People don't realize this, but women are far more likely to initiate divorce.
人们没有意识到这一点，但女性提出离婚的可能性要大得多。
So I think the interesting statistic about this is you can look at gay couples.
所以我认为有趣的统计数据是你可以看看同性恋伴侣。
So gay men who get married have less than a 50% divorce rate.
因此结婚的男同性恋者的离婚率低于50%。
I think they get divorced maybe 30% of the time.
我认为他们离婚的概率大概有30%。
Lesbian couples have the highest divorce rate.
女同性恋夫妇的离婚率最高。
So they get divorced, I think something like 60% of the time.
所以他们离婚了，我想大约有 60% 的情况是这样。
So it's even greater than 50%.
所以甚至大于50%。
So I did a lot of work on this because I've had so many patients who, when they go through a breakup, it really ruins their life.
所以我在这方面做了很多工作，因为我有很多病人，当他们经历分手时，这真的毁了他们的生活。
And there's research on this, okay?
还有这方面的研究，好吗？
I'm not misogynist or anything like that.
我并不厌恶女性或类似的东西。
So if you look at qualitative research, if you ask a woman after she goes through a divorce, "What did you lose?" She will say, "I lost a relationship." If you ask a man, "What did you lose?" They say, "I lost a life." So it's just different.
因此，如果你看一下定性研究，如果你在离婚后问一位女性，“你失去了什么？”她会说：“我失去了一段感情。”如果你问一个人：“你失去了什么？”他们说：“我失去了一条生命。”所以这只是不同的。
So women will oftentimes form many connections, so when they lose their relationship, they lose a relationship.
所以女人往往会建立很多联系，所以当她们失去关系时，她们就失去了一段关系。
But men are, by some amount of biology, by some amount of conditioning, by some amount of culture, oftentimes will have one emotional support in their life, which is their wife.
但男人，由于某种程度的生物学、某种程度的条件作用、某种程度的文化，通常在他们的生活中会有一个情感支持，那就是他们的妻子。
And I've worked with plenty of women for whom this is overwhelming because they become their husband's therapist because their husband doesn't know how to manage their own emotions.
我和很多女性一起工作过，这对她们来说是难以承受的，因为她们成为丈夫的治疗师，因为她们的丈夫不知道如何管理自己的情绪。
That's not good.
那不好。
That's not healthy.
那不健康。
But if we're looking at outcomes, the cortisol spike that men get after divorce is way higher.
但如果我们关注结果，就会发现男性离婚后皮质醇的峰值要高得多。
The amount of inflammation that they experience is way higher.
他们经历的炎症程度要高得多。
I think they have an acute risk of heart attack that elevates.
我认为他们患心脏病的风险很高。
So some of this is probably biology.
所以其中一些可能是生物学的。
We're just wired differently.
我们只是接线方式不同。
This is also another thing that's really interesting.
这也是另一件非常有趣的事情。
The inflammatory response from a cold is greater in men than it is in women.
男性因感冒引起的炎症反应比女性更大。
So when my wife gets sick, she's able to do stuff, but my inflammatory response is actually like I'm out.
所以当我的妻子生病时，她可以做一些事情，但我的炎症反应实际上就像我出去了一样。
And there's a lot of physiological evidence for why that is.
有很多生理学证据可以证明这是为什么。
And it may have something to do with if you sort of look at in the animal kingdom, a male lion is much more likely to fight baboons, much more likely to get scratches and things like that.
如果你看看动物王国，这可能与雄性狮子更有可能与狒狒打斗，更有可能被抓伤之类的事情有关。
So we need a more robust immune system, so we want a stronger immune response.
所以我们需要一个更强大的免疫系统，所以我们需要更强的免疫反应。
But yeah, takotsubo cardiomyopathy, the mortality risk of divorce for a man is way higher than a woman.
但是，是的，章鱼壶心肌病，男性离婚的死亡风险比女性高得多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's interesting because, and these are individual cases, but not population studies.
这很有趣，因为这些都是个案，而不是人口研究。
But I've had a lot of young men and their parents reach out to me, like, "My kid is really struggling.
但有很多年轻人和他们的父母向我伸出援手，比如，“我的孩子真的很挣扎。
He's really languishing, and he's really falling behind.
他真的很颓废，他真的落后了。
He's got these issues, that issues." There are all these loose correlations that I'll just throw out there.
他有这些问题，那些问题。”我将把所有这些松散的相关性扔掉。
I often hear, and I'm not saying this is the cause, but I'll hear, "Oh, yeah," and even their moms will know sometimes.
我经常听到，我并不是说这是原因，但我会听到，“哦，是的，”有时甚至他们的妈妈也会知道。
They'll say, "He's had some really serious sexual side effects.
他们会说：“他有一些非常严重的性副作用。
He was using these anti-hair loss meds.
他正在使用这些抗脱发药物。
I wonder, is it that?" They always want to find what's the one thing that can put them back on track.
我想知道，是那个吗？”他们总是想找到能让他们重回正轨的一件事。
And I'm not a psychiatrist, so I've talked to them before, and oftentimes will get a sense of what's going on more generally.
而且我不是精神病学家，所以我以前和他们谈过，通常会了解更普遍的情况。
And I actually have noticed that a number of these guys have relationships.
事实上我注意到其中许多人都有关系。
They're very close with their girlfriend.
他们和他们的女朋友非常亲密。
They have very kind, loving, supportive girlfriends.
他们有非常善良、充满爱心、支持的女朋友。
And the girlfriends are doing well in life.
而且闺蜜们的生活也都过得很好。
They're moving forward professionally But the guy isn't.
他们在职业上取得了进步，但那个人却没有。
He's sort of stuck.
他有点被困住了。
And that was a surprise to me.
这让我很惊讶。
I thought they would be totally alone.
我以为他们会完全孤独。
They'd have no access to dating or mates.
他们无法约会或交配。
No, that's not what's happening in many cases.
不，很多情况下并不是这样。
They're sort of just stuck.
他们有点被困住了。
They can't seem to find a profession.
他们似乎找不到职业。
They can't seem to get ahead.
他们似乎无法领先。
And they've got these very kind, very patient girlfriends that are sitting it out with them for I don't know how long.
他们有这些非常友善、非常耐心的女朋友，我不知道她们会陪着她们多久。
I don't know if they'll stick around, but that seems more and more common.
我不知道他们是否会留下来，但这似乎越来越普遍。
So they can find the relationship, but they can't seem to launch into being a grown man, frankly.
所以他们可以找到这种关系，但坦率地说，他们似乎无法成为一个成年人。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So I think, first of all, that was me.
所以我想，首先，那就是我。
So it took me five and a half years to graduate from college.
所以我花了五年半的时间才从大学毕业。
I graduated with a 2.4 GPA, and then I started med school at 28.
我以 2.4 的 GPA 毕业，然后 28 岁开始读医学院。
I couldn't support myself financially until I started residency at the age of 32.
直到 32 岁开始住院实习之前，我都无法在经济上养活自己。
My wife started working at 16 and has never stopped.
我的妻子从16岁开始工作，从未停止过。
And so there was a period of five years where what was I doing?
那么有五年的时间我在做什么？
I had a research assistant position at Harvard, but I was basically applying to medical school, and so I was going nowhere real fast, and she stuck it out with me, which is quite amazing.
我在哈佛有一个研究助理的职位，但我基本上是在申请医学院，所以我很快就没有任何进展，而她和我一起坚持了下来，这真是太神奇了。
I'm still surprised by her and her lack of pressure and also her supreme confidence that I was going to figure it out.
我仍然对她和她没有压力以及她对我会解决问题的极度自信感到惊讶。
So I've been in those shoes, and I think the big thing for me was I figured out how I worked.
所以我一直处于这种情况，我认为对我来说最重要的是我弄清楚了我的工作方式。
And so we have this picture, failure to launch, which is a lot of what I deal with.
所以我们就有了这张图片，启动失败，这是我处理的很多事情。
These are gifted kids who then hit a wall like I did.
这些都是有天赋的孩子，但后来却像我一样碰壁了。
So had a lot of potential, just never really comes to it.
所以有很大的潜力，只是从未真正发挥出来。
They struggle a lot with things like discipline, motivation.
他们在纪律、动力等方面遇到很多困难。
I think oftentimes they will look for some kind of solution, right?
我想他们通常会寻找某种解决方案，对吗？
Because we, as human beings, we don't realize that most of life is multifactorial, that if you do a multivariate regression analysis, you're not going to find that it was the hair loss meds.
因为我们，作为人类，我们没有意识到生活的大部分是多因素的，如果你进行多元回归分析，你不会发现这是脱发药物的原因。
And so this is where we come back to the roadmap, where I think the most important thing, and I've helped anywhere between hundreds to millions, whether you consider YouTube or not.
因此，这就是我们回到路线图的地方，我认为这是最重要的事情，我已经帮助了数百到数百万人，无论您是否考虑 YouTube。
And the main thing is they don't know how they work.
最主要的是他们不知道自己是如何工作的。
See, men are not taught to understand.
看吧，人类没有被教导去理解。
They're taught to do.
他们被教导去做。
We're like, "Do this thing.
我们就像，“做这件事。
Get a job, do this." And women have all kinds of expectations, have babies, and work, and do everything exceptionally well.
找份工作，就做这个。”而女性则有着各种各样的期望，生孩子、工作，而且每件事都做得异常出色。
But I think we're just not taught how to understand ourselves.
但我认为我们只是没有被教导如何了解自己。
So the biggest thing that I see is not a problem of treatment, but is a problem of misdiagnosis.
所以我看到的最大的问题不是治疗的问题，而是误诊的问题。
And one of the things that you learn, I think people don't really realize this, but most of medicine is not treatment.
你学到的一件事，我认为人们并没有真正意识到这一点，但大多数医学不是治疗。
I don't think treatment is usually the hard part.
我认为治疗通常不是最困难的部分。
I think the diagnosis is the hard part, understanding really what's wrong.
我认为诊断是困难的部分，真正了解问题所在。
Just as another example of this, I've worked with so many people, young men, who are like, "I'm so tired.
另一个例子是，我和很多年轻人一起工作过，他们都会说：“我太累了。
How do I increase my energy?" And what they don't realize is if you think about tiredness, tiredness is a signal from the brain.
怎样才能增加我的能量呢？”他们没有意识到，如果你想到疲劳，就会发现疲劳是来自大脑的信号。
Tiredness is not always low energy.
疲劳并不总是意味着精力不足。
Tiredness is your brain's way of telling you that this is not worth doing.
疲劳是你的大脑告诉你这不值得做的方式。
And the interesting thing is there are a lot of things that we do need to do that we will feel tired for, but the real solution to that sometimes is to force yourself to do it and get yourself out of it.
有趣的是，有很多事情我们确实需要做，但我们会感到疲倦，但有时真正的解决办法是强迫自己去做，然后摆脱它。
There are some studies that show that exercise is equally effective to an SSRI, so there's a value to that.
有一些研究表明，运动与 SSRI 同等有效，因此这是有价值的。
But I think what a lot of people are missing is their conception of the thing is what's making them tired.
但我认为很多人都忽略了他们对事物的看法，这才是让他们感到疲倦的原因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
If you think about something that you haven't done before, and you're like, "Oh my God, I have to do this thing." And then when you do it, you're like, "Oh, it's not that bad." And then you procrastinate on doing the thing even though it's actually pretty easy to do.
如果你想到一些你以前没有做过的事情，你会想，“天哪，我必须做这件事。”然后当你这样做的时候，你会想，“哦，这并没有那么糟糕。”然后你就会拖延去做这件事，尽管这件事实际上很容易做到。
So changing your understanding of what you are tired to do is the fastest way to be able to do it.
因此，改变你对你厌倦做的事情的理解是能够做到这一点的最快方法。
But the problem is we don't teach men what's going on inside them, right?
但问题是我们不教男人内心发生了什么，对吗？
We don't teach them about their emotions.
我们不教他们有关情绪的知识。
We don't teach them about motivation.
我们不教他们动机。
And so when I focus on that, that's really what I focus on doing.
所以当我专注于此时，这就是我真正专注于做的事情。
There's an old Sanskrit sentiment that avidya, which means ignorance, is the source of dukkha, which is suffering.
有一种古老的梵文观点认为，avidy（无知）是苦（dukkha）的根源。
All of your suffering in life has nothing to do with willpower, motivation, or anything like that.
你生活中所有的痛苦都与意志力、动机或类似的东西无关。
It's all a lack of understanding.
这都是缺乏理解。
And the more I've worked, the more I've realized that the most powerful thing that you can give yourself is understanding.
我工作得越多，就越意识到你能给自己的最有力的东西就是理解。
Even if I were to ask you the things that are easy for you are the things that you understand, and before you understood them, they were hard.
即使我问你，对你来说容易的事情也是你理解的事情，在你理解之前，它们是很难的。
As someone who's lazy, understanding what motivates you is actually more important than discipline or willpower, for me anyway.
作为一个懒惰的人，了解什么能激励你实际上比纪律或意志力更重要，无论如何对我来说。
I'm a degenerate.
我是一个堕落者。
And I think this is what a lot of these young men who failure to thrive-- Like I had one patient who was 31 years old, struggled with addiction, drop out.
我认为这就是许多未能成长的年轻人的原因——就像我有一个 31 岁的病人，他与毒瘾作斗争，然后辍学了。
Two years later, not only is he finishing therapy school, he's becoming a therapist, so he's supporting himself, making about 150K a year.
两年后，他不仅从治疗学校毕业，还成为一名治疗师，所以他可以养活自己，每年赚大约 15 万美元。
He's also writing a dystopian novel.
他还在写一本反乌托邦小说。
Two years later, he messaged me it had been published, right?
两年后，他给我发消息说它已经出版了，对吗？
And it's like understanding why he behaved the way that he did.
这就像理解他为什么会有这样的行为。
And the more that you understand how the system works, then you can make minor adjustments, and you can make it work.
您对系统的工作原理了解得越多，您就可以进行细微的调整，并使其发挥作用。
A car is really hard to move if you're not driving it, and you don't know how to turn it on.
如果你不开汽车，而且你不知道如何启动它，那么汽车真的很难移动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I totally agree.
我完全同意。
And I think that the false message that many people have received and that we hear all the time is that a focus on self, trying to understand the self, is really just indulgent focus on one's emotions.
我认为，许多人收到的、我们一直听到的错误信息是，关注自我、试图理解自我，实际上只是放纵地关注自己的情绪。
It's the me culture, navel-gazing.
这是自我文化，自我封闭。
But that's not what you're talking about.
但这不是你所说的。
You're talking about doing the work of addressing what parts of you are ego, what do you really want, doing a Shinnye meditation, learning to access the void so that you can really see the difference between who you really are and what's coming at you from the outside so you can steer.
你说的是要解决你的自我的哪些部分，你真正想要什么，进行 Shinnye 冥想，学习进入虚空，这样你才能真正看到你的真实身份和来自外部的事物之间的差异，这样你就可以引导。
That's what I'm hearing, and I think that the challenge is that I don't think that there's a language for this exploring of self that makes it very clear from the outset in two sentences that it's not about just being a victim, not about just feeling one's feelings so that you can justify-
这就是我所听到的，我认为挑战在于，我不认为有一种语言可以用于这种自我探索，从一开始就用两句话就清楚地表明，这不仅仅是成为受害者，不仅仅是感受一个人的感受，这样你就可以证明——
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
everything as a trauma, right?
一切都是创伤，对吗？
And I do think there's trauma out there.
我确实认为那里存在创伤。
I think there are a lot of traumatized people.
我认为有很多人受到了创伤。
I also think that we've left now the diagnosis of trauma in the beholder.
我还认为，我们现在已经把创伤的诊断留给了旁观者。
Everyone's decided that they're traumatized by this and that, and it's created this other form of trauma, which is that people are fundamentally weak.
每个人都认为自己受到了这样那样的创伤，这就造成了另一种形式的创伤，那就是人们从根本上来说是软弱的。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the people with real trauma probably aren't getting the treatment they need and deserve.
遭受真正创伤的人可能没有得到他们需要和应得的治疗。
So it's interesting that we keep coming back to men and boys and the way that they're suffering.
因此，有趣的是，我们不断地关注男人和男孩以及他们所遭受的痛苦。
This is probably a good opportunity to talk about pornography.
这可能是谈论色情的好机会。
Do you recommend that young males just not look at pornography?
您是否建议年轻男性不要看色情内容？
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
I think the majority of people report no problems from watching pornography.
我认为大多数人都表示观看色情内容没有任何问题。
So some people will say it's healthy.
所以有些人会说它是健康的。
I don't know that it's healthy or not.
我不知道它是否健康。
I think it's the way that you use it, just like any other addictive substance.
我认为这是你使用它的方式，就像任何其他成瘾物质一样。
So I don't think it is all bad.
所以我不认为这都是坏事。
That being said, there are a couple of things that are really problematic.
话虽这么说，有一些事情确实存在问题。
The first is that pornography is getting more neuroscientifically engaging.
首先，色情作品在神经科学上变得越来越有吸引力。
Here's the scariest statistic about addiction.
这是有关成瘾的最可怕的统计数据。
So 5% of people under the age of 30 had erectile dysfunction, maybe like 20, 30 years ago.
因此，30 岁以下的人中有 5% 患有勃起功能障碍，大概是在 20、30 年前。
That number has climbed to like 20%.
这个数字已经攀升至 20% 左右。
And a lot of that erectile dysfunction, if you define what erectile dysfunction is, it is inability to maintain an erection through the completion of the sexual act.
很多勃起功能障碍，如果你定义什么是勃起功能障碍，那就是在完成性行为时无法维持勃起。
A lot of people think that this means they can't get hard.
很多人认为这意味着他们无法努力。
It's not that they can't get hard.
并不是说他们不能努力。
They can get an erection.
他们可以勃起。
It's just they can't achieve orgasm or climax.
只是他们无法达到性高潮或高潮。
So I think we're seeing a lot of problems with pornography.
所以我认为我们看到了色情制品的很多问题。
We're seeing a lot of very young people having erectile dysfunction, being unable to achieve climax through penetrative intercourse.
我们看到很多年轻人患有勃起功能障碍，无法通过插入式性交达到高潮。
It's affecting the brain a lot more.
它对大脑的影响更大。
So the colors are brighter, things are jigglier, things are bouncier.
所以颜色更明亮，东西更晃动，东西更有弹性。
There's virtual reality, 8K, 4K.
有虚拟现实、8K、4K。
The bigger problem that I'm seeing, or the scarier problem, is pornography used to be something of passive consumption.
我看到的更大的问题，或更可怕的问题是，色情作品曾经是被动消费的东西。
So the porn is over there, and I'm over here.
所以色情片在那儿，我在这儿。
There's no emotional connection.
没有任何情感联系。
There's no parasocial relationship.
不存在准社会关系。
The really scary thing is with the things like OnlyFans, now the person that you're watching pornography for is interacting with you.
真正可怕的是像 OnlyFans 这样的东西，现在你正在观看色情内容的人正在与你互动。
They're saying thank you.
他们在说谢谢。
They're appreciating you.
他们很欣赏你。
You're asking them, and they're sending you a picture or making a video just for you.
你问他们，他们就会给你发一张照片或专门为你制作一个视频。
So I'm seeing a lot more scary parasocial relationships develop.
所以我看到了更多可怕的准社会关系的发展。
I'm seeing emotional affairs.
我看到的是感情问题。
So now, we've added a dimension of our brain, the empathic circuit, the social circuits, the relationship circuits, are now starting to activate with pornography.
所以现在，我们增加了大脑的一个维度，共情回路、社交回路、关系回路，现在开始随着色情内容而激活。
So that's a whole different ballgame.
所以这是一场完全不同的比赛。
And then there's a lot of data just about ease of access and things like that.
还有大量关于访问便捷性之类的数据。
I think pornography addiction, it's interesting, a very strong risk factor is prepubescent exposure to pornography.
我认为色情成瘾很有趣，一个非常强的风险因素是青春期前接触色情内容。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Young kids who are on the internet.
上网的小孩子。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Majority of people actually get exposed to their first pornography now before they hit puberty.
事实上，大多数人在进入青春期之前就已经接触到了他们的第一部色情作品。
But there's something about when you get exposed to pornography when your brain is developing before puberty, it increases your risk factor.
但当你的大脑在青春期前发育时接触色情内容，就会增加你的风险因素。
It increases the risk of developing addiction later in life.
它增加了以后生活成瘾的风险。
So there is something just special about sex and the way that it affects our brain.
因此，性及其影响我们大脑的方式有一些特别之处。
We're talking about salience and things like that.
我们正在谈论显着性和类似的事情。
We've basically evolved this whole thing to procreate.
我们基本上已经进化了这一切来繁衍后代。
So when we get visual stimuli, when we get auditory stimuli, it turns our brain on in a very profound way.
因此，当我们受到视觉刺激时，当我们受到听觉刺激时，它会以一种非常深刻的方式开启我们的大脑。
We see a lot of emotional suppression.
我们看到很多情绪压抑。
So what a lot of people don't realize, I work with a lot of people who struggle with pornography, really the emotional regulation component is huge.
所以很多人没有意识到，我和很多与色情作斗争的人一起工作，情绪调节的成分确实是巨大的。
They're not horny.
他们并不饥渴。
It's not necessarily a lot of masturbation, which is what a lot of people assume.
这不一定是很多人认为的大量手淫。
Oftentimes, it's second screen kind of stuff.
通常，这是第二屏幕之类的东西。
It's watching pornography when you use the restroom and you're not jerking off or anything, you're just watching porn.
当你上厕所的时候，你就在看色情片，而你并没有打飞机什么的，你只是在看色情片。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's sort of like a numbing out type of activity.
所以这有点像一种让人麻木的活动。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Right.
正确的。
So this is a key thing to remember is in order for something to be addictive, it needs two things.
所以要记住的关键一点是，为了让某样东西让人上瘾，它需要两件事。
It needs to give us pleasure, and it needs to take away pain.
它需要给我们带来快乐，也需要消除痛苦。
And as we see addiction, over time, it shifts away from pleasure into taking away pain.
正如我们所看到的，随着时间的推移，成瘾会从快乐转变为消除痛苦。
When we become dependent on something is when we require it to numb ourselves.
当我们变得依赖某样东西时，就是我们需要它来麻痹自己的时候。
So I think we're also seeing more pornography because life for everybody, young people and young men, is getting harder.
所以我认为我们也看到了更多的色情内容，因为每个人，年轻人和年轻男性的生活都变得越来越困难。
So as we become more socially isolated, as it's harder to find a girlfriend, as we get indoctrinated by social media, as we become delusional because of social media, as our social skills atrophy, all of these things are happening.
因此，当我们变得更加社会孤立，当我们越来越难找到女朋友，当我们被社交媒体灌输，当我们因为社交媒体而变得妄想，当我们的社交技能萎缩，所有这些事情都在发生。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a pretty bleak picture.
这是一幅相当惨淡的画面。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
It is bleak.
一片凄凉。
And I think the reason it's bleak is because we haven't been fighting back in a very focused way.
我认为情况黯淡的原因是我们没有以非常集中的方式进行反击。
So part of the reason I focus so much on relationships, because I'm not a couples therapist, but what I found is that my patients I could only do so much without having them have a relationship.
所以我如此关注人际关系的部分原因是，因为我不是夫妻治疗师，但我发现我的病人在没有关系的情况下我只能做这么多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
You can be depressed, you can be anxious, but if you have a solid relationship, that is one of the most important things.
你可能会沮丧，你可能会焦虑，但如果你有牢固的关系，那是最重要的事情之一。
At some point, I really started focusing on this.
在某个时候，我真的开始关注这个问题。
It was like literally I was down the street or on the opposite side of town filming a guide about what is the science behind arousal activation.
就好像我在街上或城镇的另一边拍摄一部关于唤醒激活背后的科学的指南。
How do you flirt?
你怎么调情？
These are the skills.
这些就是技能。
How do we help people?
我们如何帮助人们？
I think it's giving them the skills that we used to learn organically.
我认为这给了他们我们过去有机学习的技能。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you think that a lot of the attention on muscle building, on looks maxing, is actually just a safer discussion for young males?
你是否认为，对于年轻男性来说，对肌肉锻炼、外观最大化的大量关注实际上只是一个更安全的讨论？
They can talk about that.
他们可以谈论这个。
They can talk about trying to get body fat percentages, or they're doing mewing for their jaw or something.
他们可以谈论试图获得身体脂肪百分比，或者他们正在为下巴或其他什么而喵喵叫。
I think nasal breathing can be very helpful, but the whole thing of looks maxing is so insane to me.
我认为鼻呼吸非常有帮助，但对我来说，看起来最大化的整个事情太疯狂了。
But maybe it's a way of talking about wanting to be different because the conversation about sex, about intimacy, about maybe someone has issues with porn or erectile issues, maybe that's just so scary that it's kind of a way of them getting close to the topic but not really in the topics.
但也许这是一种谈论想要与众不同的方式，因为关于性、关于亲密、关于某人可能有色情问题或勃起问题的对话，也许这太可怕了，以至于这是他们接近主题但不是真正在主题中的一种方式。
Because when people have approached me and said, "Hey, man, can you help me out?
因为当人们走近我并对我说：“嘿，伙计，你能帮我吗？
I'm really having problems," they're not talking to me about what I just described.
我真的遇到了问题，”他们没有跟我谈论我刚才描述的事情。
They're talking about not knowing which career to have.
他们谈论的是不知道该从事什么职业。
But then they're asking me about how to work out.
但后来他们问我如何锻炼。
And it's almost like I have a feeling there's a lot more going on.
我几乎感觉还有很多事情正在发生。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So here's what I'd say.
这就是我要说的。
One of the great things I learned as a psychiatrist, the best way to run away from an unsolvable problem is to solve something else.
作为一名精神病学家，我学到的最伟大的事情之一是，逃避无法解决的问题的最好方法就是解决其他问题。
So I think you're absolutely right.
所以我认为你是完全正确的。
There's a displacement, because I don't even know where to start with how to flirt.
有一种位移，因为我什至不知道从哪里开始如何调情。
But you know what I can control?
但你知道我能控制什么吗？
Here's the thing about looks maxing.
这是关于外观最大化的事情。
There's no other humans involved.
没有其他人类参与其中。
There's no possibility.
没有可能。
Getting somebody else to fall in love with fucking me?
让别人爱上他妈的我？
That's so hard.
那太难了。
I don't even know where to start.
我什至不知道从哪里开始。
I don't even like myself.
我什至不喜欢我自己。
How am I supposed to get somebody else to fall in love with me?
我该如何让别人爱上我？
When I look in the mirror, I see disgust.
当我照镜子时，我看到了厌恶。
I cannot fathom or tolerate the idea of going on a date and having this person look at this.
我无法理解或容忍去约会并让这个人看这个的想法。
So I'm going to transform myself.
所以我要改变自己。
I'm going to solve all of those problems by solving one problem.
我将通过解决一个问题来解决所有这些问题。
If I can just do this one thing, I'm going to take a multivariate regression analysis and hyper-focus on one variable.
如果我只能做这一件事，我将进行多元回归分析并高度关注一个变量。
I'm going to do a very interesting selection bias and cognitive bias, cognitive filtering of ignoring all of the beautiful people who are still single or divorced.
我要做一个非常有趣的选择偏见和认知偏见，认知过滤，忽略所有仍然单身或离婚的美丽人士。
And the other huge cognitive bias that I'm going to do, when I go to a playground and I see lots of kids running around and I look at the parents of those kids, they're average looking, right?
我要做的另一个巨大的认知偏见是，当我去游乐场时，我看到很多孩子跑来跑去，我看看这些孩子的父母，他们长得一般，对吧？
Most people who have relationships look average.
大多数有关系的人看上去都很普通。
Statistically, that's how it works.
从统计数据来看，这就是它的工作原理。
But the mind does not know how to grab-- The problem is too big.
但头脑不知道如何抓住——问题太大了。
Where do I start?
我从哪里开始？
Do I learn how to flirt?
我学会如何调情吗？
I'm creepy.
我很毛骨悚然。
How do I learn how to flirt?
我如何学习如何调情？
How do I learn how to flirt without getting rejected?
我如何学习如何调情而不被拒绝？
I'm tired of getting rejected.
我厌倦了被拒绝。
I don't want to get rejected.
我不想被拒绝。
It hurts to get rejected.
被拒绝很痛苦。
It proves all of my insecurities about myself, and that's just flirting.
这证明了我对自己的所有不安全感，而那只是调情。
So if you talk to these people, a lot of times what you'll get is any time you tell them to move forward, what they'll say is, "But how do I solve the next thing?
因此，如果你和这些人交谈，很多时候你会得到的结果是，每当你告诉他们继续前进时，他们会说，“但是我如何解决下一件事呢？
That doesn't account for this.
这并不能说明这一点。
Even if I looks max, it doesn't do this, it doesn't do this, it doesn't do this." And that's why the more that they go into looks maxing, because there's this idea that if you're beautiful, right, and this is some really interesting theory of mind.
即使我看起来很棒，它也不会这样做，它不会这样做，它不会这样做。”这就是为什么他们越来越注重外表，因为有这样的想法：如果你很漂亮，那就对了，这是一些非常有趣的心理理论。
When they look at the people that they're attracted to, in their mind, if someone's a 10 out of 10, I'd date them in a heartbeat, and if I date them, someone would date me.
当他们看到自己被吸引的人时，在他们的脑海里，如果某人是十分之十，我会毫不犹豫地与他们约会，如果我与他们约会，有人也会与我约会。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
So I think this looks maxing thing is a really great way of displacing all of our terrifying, overwhelming feelings of, "How do I get another human being to accept me?" It's way more complicated.
所以我认为这看起来是一个很好的方式，可以消除我们所有的可怕的、压倒性的感觉，“我如何让另一个人接受我？”情况要复杂得多。
The good news is that I think we can actually figure it out.
好消息是我认为我们实际上可以解决这个问题。
I don't know how many research studies are published, but I was blown away.
我不知道发表了多少研究报告，但我被震撼了。
Did you know that half the studies on charisma are published in religious studies journals?
您是否知道一半关于魅力的研究发表在宗教研究期刊上？
It's fascinating.
这很有趣。
There's so much science out there.
那里有很多科学。
We know so many things.
我们知道很多事情。
We literally know how people fall in love.
我们确实知道人们如何坠入爱河。
We know that one of the reasons that it's harder to fall in love is because the feeling of being in love, you know that feeling of just seeing someone and you feel amazing, and just their presence makes you feel amazing, floods your brain with dopamine.
我们知道，很难坠入爱河的原因之一是因为恋爱的感觉，你知道那种只要看到某人就感觉很棒的感觉，而他们的存在就让你感觉很棒，让你的大脑充满多巴胺。
So as our dopamine system gets messed up by social media, it has literally become neurochemically harder to fall in love.
因此，当我们的多巴胺系统被社交媒体搞乱时，从神经化学角度来说，坠入爱河实际上变得更加困难。
So now when I have patients, I tell them, "Go for a walk for one hour before you go on a date and stay off of any technology."
因此，现在当我接待病人时，我会告诉他们，“约会前先散步一小时，并远离任何电子产品。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Love that.
喜欢那个。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Literally, your neuroscientific capacity to fall in love is increased.
从字面上看，你坠入爱河的神经科学能力得到了增强。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
May I ask what you think about this?
请问您对此有何看法？
I'm a big fan lately of boring breaks in order to stay on task for things like writing, podcast research, et cetera.
我最近非常喜欢无聊的休息时间，以便继续完成写作、播客研究等任务。
I find that if breaks between cognitive tasks, which are demanding, if those breaks are too engaging, that it makes it much, much harder to reengage in hard work.
我发现，如果在要求较高的认知任务之间进行休息，如果这些休息太吸引人，那么重新投入艰苦的工作就会变得非常非常困难。
Which I love hard work, but I also experience some of the friction going into a bout of work.
我喜欢努力工作，但我也经历过一些工作中的摩擦。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So what most people do on their breaks is exhausting.
所以大多数人在休息时所做的事情都是令人筋疲力尽的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Literally, right?
从字面上看，对吧？
So if you spend time on social media, your brain will be more tired at the end of the break So boredom is great.
因此，如果你花时间在社交媒体上，你的大脑在休息结束时会更加疲劳，所以无聊是很好的。
There's a lot of stuff around yoga and boredom and focusing the mind and things like that.
有很多关于瑜伽、无聊、集中注意力之类的东西。
But yeah, I'm with you 100%.
但是，是的，我百分百支持你。
So people don't understand what's happening to them.
所以人们不明白他们身上发生了什么。
They don't understand also how to make people fall in love with you.
他们也不明白如何让人们爱上你。
I don't mean that in a minute.
我一会儿就不是这个意思。
That's the wrong phrase.
这是错误的短语。
But so human beings have been falling in love since the dawn of humanity, literally, and there are certain circumstances that lead to that.
但事实上，从人类诞生之日起，人类就一直在坠入爱河，并且有某些特定的环境导致了这种情况。
There's a cool study that I cite over and over and over again.
有一项很酷的研究，我一遍又一遍地引用。
They had couples go on a date on a stone bridge or a rickety wooden bridge, and the couples that were on the rickety wooden bridge formed a stronger emotional bond.
他们让情侣在石桥或摇摇晃晃的木桥上约会，摇摇晃晃的木桥上的情侣之间形成了更牢固的情感纽带。
People don't realize that forming an emotional bond depends on shared emotional experience.
人们没有意识到情感纽带的形成取决于共同的情感体验。
So we have to feel the same thing, and this is such a problem in rehab.
所以我们必须有同样的感觉，这就是康复中的一个问题。
My biggest problem when I'm running a rehab as an attending is people keep falling in love.
当我作为主治人员经营康复中心时，我最大的问题是人们不断坠入爱河。
We're trying really hard, like, "Don't fall in love." These two are getting together.
我们真的很努力，就像“不要坠入爱河”。这两个人正在聚在一起。
All the nursing staff is aware.
所有护理人员都知道。
They went to their rooms overnight.
他们连夜回自己的房间。
This is happening.
这正在发生。
We're like, "No love and no in rehab." But it happens over and over again because everyone is sharing.
我们就像，“没有爱，就没有康复。”但这种情况一再发生，因为每个人都在分享。
Trauma bonding is what people call it now.
人们现在称之为创伤联结。
But when you share an emotional experience with someone else, that is what fosters love.
但当你与别人分享情感经历时，就会滋生爱。
But nowadays, what happens is dating is like interviews.
但如今，约会就像采访一样。
Everyone's making judgments on each other based on a profile.
每个人都根据个人资料对彼此做出判断。
None of those things actually correlate with the relationship success.
这些事情实际上与关系的成功无关。
Whether you're six feet, how much money you make, doesn't correlate with-- I'm sure maybe correlates on some level, but if you look at the big variables, it's not any of that stuff.
无论你身高六英尺，赚多少钱，都与——我确信可能在某种程度上相关，但如果你看看大变量，就会发现它与这些无关。
And if you think about how you fell in love with your girlfriend, how I fell in love, I was going to be a monk.
如果你想想你是如何爱上你的女朋友的，我是如何坠入爱河的，我会成为一名和尚。
I told my girlfriend.
我告诉我女朋友了。
I didn't know we were dating.
我不知道我们在约会。
I didn't even ask her out on a date.
我什至没有约她出去。
I was just like, "Hey, you want to grab food sometime?" I was going to be a monk.
我当时就想，“嘿，你想找个时间去吃点东西吗？”我本来想当和尚。
And then I even told her, I was like, "Hey, I'm going to be a monk.
然后我什至告诉她，我当时想，“嘿，我要成为一名和尚。
This is a temporary thing." And she's like, "Yeah, whatever."
这是暂时的事情。”她说：“是的，无论如何。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Seven years later, you're back from India.
七年后，你从印度回来了。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Oh, no. Well, so I would come back-
哦，不。好吧，所以我会回来-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay
好的
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
...
...
back and forth.
来回。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
But, so we dated during that time.
但是，所以我们在那段时间约会了。
And the cool thing is as an educator, it's amazing if you teach someone how something works, and love is not that complicated, actually.
作为一名教育者，最酷的事情是，如果你教某人某件事是如何运作的，那真是太棒了，而爱实际上并没有那么复杂。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If given the right environment, internal and external environment.
如果给予合适的环境，内部环境和外部环境。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Right?
正确的？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I'm not trying to be academic about it, but what you described about-
所以我并不是想对此进行学术讨论，而是你所描述的-
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
No, no
不，不
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
an hour off social media before going on a date, I think that's terrific advice to people.
约会前关闭社交媒体一个小时，我认为这对人们来说是一个很好的建议。
I think that this idea that our nervous systems are somehow able to pivot from one sensory experience to the next without the previous sensory experience completely either contaminating or supporting what comes next is so obvious in the case of you get a great night's sleep, you wake up, the next morning you feel great.
我认为，我们的神经系统能够以某种方式从一种感官体验转向下一种感官体验，而之前的感官体验不会完全污染或支持接下来的感觉，这一点在你睡个好觉、醒来、第二天早上感觉很好的情况下是如此明显。
You get a terrible night's sleep, the next morning you feel terrible.
你一夜睡得很糟糕，第二天早上你感觉很糟糕。
Everyone understands that, but people can't understand the idea of dopamine depletion or just over-arousal and then going into the next thing that should be arousing, and it's under-arousing.
每个人都明白这一点，但人们无法理解多巴胺耗尽或只是过度兴奋然后进入下一个应该被唤醒的事情，而它是唤醒不足的想法。
And I'm not even talking about sex here.
我什至没有在这里谈论性。
I'm talking about social interaction.
我说的是社交互动。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
So when I was looking at the mechanisms of this, I realized why going on a movie is a great first date.
因此，当我研究其机制时，我意识到为什么看电影是一次很棒的第一次约会。
Back when we were growing up-
回到我们小时候——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
...
...
people would go on movies on first dates, right?
人们第一次约会会去看电影，对吗？
And everyone's like, "Why would you go on a movie for a first date?
每个人都会说，“你为什么第一次约会就去看电影？
You're not even talking or getting to know the other person." Well, it turns out that movies create shared emotional experiences, which is why people organically figured out that you can go to a movie, and it's a great first date.
你甚至没有和对方交谈或了解对方。”嗯，事实证明，电影创造了共同的情感体验，这就是为什么人们有机地认为你可以去看电影，而且这是一次很棒的第一次约会。
But I think things do seem bleak, but I think we've got the tools to reverse it.
但我认为事情确实看起来很黯淡，但我认为我们有扭转局面的工具。
So I think the cool thing is we do have all of this information.
所以我认为很酷的事情是我们确实拥有所有这些信息。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
And so we know how to be charming, how to flirt, what are the situations that you need to create in order to foster interactions or foster a relationship, foster emotional connection.
因此，我们知道如何变得有魅力，如何调情，以及需要创造哪些情境来促进互动或培养关系、培养情感联系。
What makes you charismatic?
是什么让你有魅力？
What makes you attractive?
是什么让你有魅力？
Things like humor and kindness are incredibly important.
幽默和友善之类的东西非常重要。
Humor is a huge signal that signals both intelligence, because if you can make someone laugh, you can read them.
幽默是一个巨大的信号，标志着双方的智力，因为如果你能让别人发笑，你就能读懂他们。
And so it's also a signal of empathy-
所以这也是一种同理心的信号——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
...
...
and ability, like, does this person get me?
和能力，比如，这个人能理解我吗？
If they can make you laugh, that means that they get you.
如果他们能让你发笑，那就意味着他们明白你的意思。
And the last thing that I'll mention is that we were talking about how the internet is like people live in different worlds on the internet, and the really scary thing, I made a great YouTube video that was kind of controversial, but why women prefer beta males.
我要提到的最后一件事是，我们正在谈论互联网就像人们生活在互联网上的不同世界，真正可怕的是，我制作了一个很棒的 YouTube 视频，该视频有点争议，但为什么女性更喜欢测试男性。
And the really interesting thing is that a lot of people were really upset by it.
真正有趣的是，很多人对此感到非常沮丧。
It was about this drive for muscularity and some of the scientific research.
这是关于对肌肉的追求和一些科学研究。
But the really interesting thing was the male versus female response to the video, that women were like, "Yeah, this guy's right.
但真正有趣的是男性和女性对视频的反应，女性会说，“是的，这家伙是对的。
We're actually these super alpha guys are not actually attractive.
事实上，我们这些超级阿尔法家伙实际上并不有吸引力。
I would run for the hills." And then a lot of dudes were like, "Oh, this guy's like he doesn't know what he's talking about." So it's really interesting.
我会跑到山上去。”然后很多人都说，“哦，这家伙好像不知道自己在说什么。”所以这真的很有趣。
Part of what makes it so hard is not only do we have these effects from pornography and atrophy of the social circuits of our brain, but then we're also like we just have bad information.
造成如此困难的部分原因不仅是我们受到色情和大脑社交回路萎缩的影响，而且我们也觉得我们只是收到了不好的信息。
And in my experience, once you get good information, I'm sure this is true of you too.
根据我的经验，一旦你获得了良好的信息，我相信这对你来说也是如此。
Once you get good information and once you start applying it, once you start practicing it, you'd be amazed at how much understanding a system can give you mastery over it.
一旦你获得了好的信息，一旦你开始应用它，一旦你开始练习它，你会惊讶地发现一个系统可以让你在多大程度上掌握它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, absolutely.
哦，绝对是。
I can't claim it in the domains that you're so proficient in, but I'll never forget as an undergraduate working in a sleep laboratory over a summer at Stanford, and every afternoon, the entire laboratory would go outside to watch the sunset.
我不能在你如此精通的领域声称这一点，但我永远不会忘记，作为一名本科生，在斯坦福大学的一个睡眠实验室工作了一个夏天，每天下午，整个实验室都会出去看日落。
And I asked, I'll never forget.
我问过，我永远不会忘记。
I asked Seiji Nishino, I asked Emmanuel Mignot.
我问西野精二，我问伊曼纽尔·米尼奥。
These guys discovered the genes that underlie narcolepsy, and the druggable targets now exist, that drugs exist to treat it.
这些人发现了发作性睡病的基因，并且现在存在可药物靶标，存在治疗它的药物。
But at the time, they said, "Oh, we do this to entrain our circadian rhythm, and you need to watch the sunrise, so you need to see sun within the first hours of your day." This was mid-'90s.
但当时，他们说，“哦，我们这样做是为了控制我们的昼夜节律，你需要看日出，所以你需要在一天的头几个小时内看到太阳。”那是 90 年代中期。
And I remember thinking, "How could that be?" And I started reading about it, and the cells that regulate this had not yet been discovered.
我记得我当时想：“怎么可能呢？”我开始阅读有关它的内容，但调节它的细胞尚未被发现。
That was in the early 2000s.
那是在2000年代初期。
We didn't even know which retinal neurons mediated this.
我们甚至不知道哪些视网膜神经元介导了这一过程。
But these guys knew this from their own lives and their own practices and I started realizing, oh, there's a mechanism here, and as more got discovered, it was like this changes mood, mental health, metabolism.
但这些人从他们自己的生活和实践中知道这一点，我开始意识到，哦，这里有一种机制，随着更多人的发现，这就像改变情绪、心理健康和新陈代谢。
We now just all take this for granted, but understanding the mechanism behind something tremendously empowering.
我们现在都认为这是理所当然的，但了解了一些巨大的授权背后的机制。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I share that story because that wasn't but 25 years ago or so.
我分享这个故事是因为那是 25 年前的事了。
So what that means is that the things that we think are kind of out there now that are a little bit woo or a lot woo, I guarantee in 10 years we're going to understand the mechanisms.
所以这意味着我们认为现在已经存在的东西有点令人着迷或非常令人着迷，我保证在 10 年内我们将了解其中的机制。
They'll be called something different or similar or maybe the same, and people will be putting that to work, and it's going to improve mental health in a major way.
它们将被称为不同的或相似的或可能相同的东西，人们会将其付诸实践，这将在很大程度上改善心理健康。
In other words, the science catches up eventually, but the practices that work need to be talked about.
换句话说，科学最终会迎头赶上，但行之有效的做法需要讨论。
And that's why, again, I'm so grateful that you're willing to go there.
这就是为什么我再次非常感激你愿意去那里。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
I think the reason there's skepticism-- So I'm a Reiki healer.
我认为存在怀疑的原因是——所以我是一名灵气治疗师。
I'm a crystal healer.
我是水晶治疗师。
I learned Bach flower remedies, and I don't talk about any of that stuff because I think there's no basis for it.
我学过巴赫的花疗，但我不谈论任何这些东西，因为我认为它没有基础。
Like maybe the energy healer.
就像能量治疗师一样。
So I've studied all kinds of things, but I think the reason that people are so skeptical is because there's so much BS out there.
所以我研究了各种各样的东西，但我认为人们如此怀疑的原因是因为那里有太多的废话。
So the reason I leaned into yoga and meditation are first, actually, primarily because of certain personal experiences I had, but those have the best evidence behind them.
因此，我倾向于瑜伽和冥想的原因首先实际上主要是因为我的某些个人经历，但这些经历背后都有最好的证据。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
And I think the real challenge right now, so the reason I do it this way is because if you look at some of the really powerful techniques from meditation, people can't wait.
我认为现在真正的挑战，所以我这样做的原因是因为如果你看看冥想中的一些真正强大的技巧，人们会等不及。
Like at least the people I work with, they can't wait 20 years to elucidate the mechanisms.
至少和我一起工作的人一样，他们迫不及待地要等 20 年才能阐明其中的机制。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
When we're talking about Sankalpa and Yoga Nidra.
当我们谈论 Sankalpa 和 Yoga Nidra 时。
So you can get all the autonomic stuff, great.
所以你可以获得所有自主的东西，太棒了。
You can get some neuroscience stuff maybe, right?
也许你可以获得一些神经科学的东西，对吧？
That's kind of iffy.
这有点不确定。
We don't really know.
我们真的不知道。
But then some of this other stuff, I think if people are not achieving what they want, what I encourage them to do is explore and be skeptical.
但对于其他一些事情，我认为如果人们没有实现他们想要的目标，我鼓励他们做的是探索和持怀疑态度。
Don't just believe it, but try it, right?
不要只是相信它，而是要尝试一下，对吗？
So if you're doing cardiac coherence breathing, that's Nadi Shuddhi, right?
所以，如果你正在做心脏连贯呼吸，那就是 Nadi Shuddhi，对吗？
Alternate nostril breathing.
鼻孔交替呼吸。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Do it regularly the way that you were taught, and then do it for eight seconds for the inhalation, 32 seconds for the hold, and 16 seconds for the exhalation, because 16-
按照教你的方式定期进行，然后吸气 8 秒，屏气 32 秒，呼气 16 秒，因为 16-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Alternating nostrils.
交替鼻孔。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah, alternating nostrils.
是的，鼻孔交替。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can I just insert one thing?
我可以只插入一件事吗？
Some people will hear alternating nostril breathing of plugging one nostril than the other, and they'll go, "Oh my God, this is crazy." We had the guy who works on olfaction and frankly breathing, because the two go hand in hand, Noam Sobel, and he explained that every 90 minutes around the clock, there's a switch in the dominant nostril through which we breathe.
有些人会听到交替的鼻孔呼吸声，其中一个鼻孔堵住另一个鼻孔，他们会说：“天哪，这太疯狂了。”我们有一个研究嗅觉和坦率呼吸的人，因为这两者是齐头并进的，诺姆·索贝尔，他解释说，每 90 分钟，我们呼吸的主导鼻孔就会发生一次切换。
You can observe this even if you have a deviated septum, but air will flow more readily than to the other, and it's the alternation of parasympathetic dominant and sympathetic dominant breathing through the autonomic nervous system.
即使您的鼻中隔偏曲，您也可以观察到这一点，但空气会比其他空气更容易流动，这是通过自主神经系统进行副交感主导呼吸和交感主导呼吸的交替。
And so he's a physiologist, and when he said that, I thought, okay, this alternate nostril breathing thing, for so many years, frankly, I heard about this from the yoga community, and I thought, all right, this seems a little wacky.
所以他是一名生理学家，当他这么说时，我想，好吧，这种交替鼻孔呼吸的东西，这么多年了，坦率地说，我从瑜伽界听说过这个，我想，好吧，这看起来有点古怪。
And here he's sitting exactly where you are now, and he said, "Yeah, there's absolutely a physiological basis for this.
他就坐在你现在所在的位置，他说：“是的，这绝对有生理基础。
When you breathe through one nostril, you get a very different effect on the autonomic nervous system than you do through the other nostril, and this is constantly alternating, even if you're not plugging your nostril every 90 minutes from birth until death."
当你通过一个鼻孔呼吸时，你对自主神经系统的影响与通过另一个鼻孔呼吸时的影响截然不同，而且这种影响是不断交替的，即使你从出生到死亡期间没有每 90 分钟堵住一次鼻孔。”
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
There were certain things I would find in the yogic texts, and then I ran into this exact thing where there's, I think they call it an ultradian rhythm.
我会在瑜伽文本中找到某些东西，然后我遇到了这个确切的东西，我认为他们称之为超节奏。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Right?
对吗？
That's, oh, this is like a physiologic thing.
那是，哦，这就像生理上的事情。
And so I leaned towards the practices that were physiologically sound, that there's some evidence for, because I was like, I'm not going to waste my time and nothing's going to happen.
所以我倾向于生理上合理的做法，有一些证据证明，因为我想，我不会浪费时间，也不会发生任何事情。
I'm going to do the stuff that at least I'll get a physiologic benefit.
我要做的事情至少能给我带来生理上的好处。
And then as you go into advanced practices, it's wild.
然后当你进入高级实践时，它会很疯狂。
And the really scary thing is that in my mind, there's a lot of this stuff is scientifically valid, but it's really hard to study.
真正可怕的是，在我看来，有很多东西在科学上是有效的，但它真的很难研究。
And then the really scary thing, the thing that bothers me the most is that I think there's a lot of stuff that's true that is not scientifically valid.
然后，真正可怕的事情，最让我困扰的是，我认为有很多东西是真实的，但在科学上并不有效。
I really think it's kind of like beyond what science is capable of measuring, at least now and in the foreseeable future.
我真的认为这有点超出了科学能够测量的范围，至少现在和可预见的未来是这样。
And-
还有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Spirituality.
灵性。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Spirituality.
灵性。
And I think the simplest example of this is a thought.
我认为最简单的例子就是思想。
We have no scientific evidence of a thought.
我们没有任何科学证据证明某个想法。
The only reason that we know that the amygdala is where we feel anxiety for is because we measure what was going on in the amygdala, and then we ask the person, "What are you feeling when this part of your brain lights up?"
我们知道杏仁核是我们感到焦虑的地方，唯一的原因是我们测量杏仁核中发生的事情，然后我们问这个人：“当你大脑的这一部分亮起来时，你有什么感觉？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, you may be encouraged to learn that the great Anna Lembke, my colleague-
好吧，你可能会受到鼓舞，因为我的同事，伟大的安娜·伦布克——
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
at Stanford, right?
在斯坦福大学，对吗？
An MD and psychiatrist like you who wrote "Dopamine Nation," has a book-
像你这样写过《多巴胺国家》的医学博士和精神病学家有一本书——
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Amazing work.
了不起的工作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing work.
了不起的工作。
She's an amazing woman at the level of clinician, human being, just all around, and such a pioneer.
她在临床医生、人类层面上都是一位了不起的女性，而且是一位先驱。
If you look back, she's been five to 10 years ahead of everybody else in terms of her-
如果你回头看，她已经比其他人领先了五到十年——
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
understanding and beliefs about where we're going vis-a-vis the neuroscience impact of social media, et cetera.
对社交媒体等对神经科学的影响的理解和信念。
She has a book that's coming out later this year on spirituality.
她有一本关于灵性的书将于今年晚些时候出版。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So serious scientists and clinicians like yourself, like Anna, are starting to go there before we have the rat, cat, monkey, bat, then clinical trial and human work done.
因此，像安娜这样严肃的科学家和临床医生，在我们完成老鼠、猫、猴子、蝙蝠、临床试验和人体工作之前就开始去那里了。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
So what I love about spirituality personally, it scares me and it frustrates me, but what I like about it is it's the only scientific exploration that no one can do for you.
所以我个人对灵性的热爱，它让我害怕，让我沮丧，但我喜欢它的是，它是唯一没有人能为你做的科学探索。
So what I love about it, so I like learning.
所以我喜欢它，所以我喜欢学习。
I'm not really a researcher, but I'm a very clinically oriented scientist, I guess you could say, or science-oriented clinician.
我并不是真正的研究人员，但我想你可以说我是一位非常以临床为导向的科学家，或者以科学为导向的临床医生。
And it's the one thing that You can never-- like an experience of shunya.
这是你永远无法做到的一件事——就像舒雅的体验一样。
You can look at the brain scan of shunya, potentially, but to experience it, to figure it out, you have to be the scientist.
你可以看一下顺雅的脑部扫描，这是有可能的，但要体验它、弄清楚它，你必须成为科学家。
It is the only kind of subjective experience, which is what spirituality is really about, is attaining certain states, is not something that is ever transmissible.
这是唯一一种主观体验，这就是灵性的真正含义，是达到某些状态，而不是任何可以传递的东西。
And that's why people are hesitant to talk about it, because we sound like crazy people.
这就是为什么人们不愿意谈论它，因为我们听起来像疯子。
It's like if I mention, "This technique can give you insight into your past lives." They're like, "This guy is insane." But here's the struggle that I had.
就好像我提到“这项技术可以让你洞察你的前世”。他们说：“这家伙疯了。”但这是我所经历的斗争。
You're meditating one day, and then you have these memories.
有一天你在冥想，然后你就有了这些记忆。
You have memories, but they're not from this life.
你有记忆，但它们不是来自今生。
And then it's like you're like, "What the hell is that?" And I'm not even saying that past lives exist.
然后你就会想，“那到底是什么？”我什至不是说前世存在。
I want to be really clear about that.
我想澄清这一点。
But for me, it was confusing.
但对我来说，这很令人困惑。
It's really destabilizing for your understanding of what the world is.
这确实会破坏你对世界的理解。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Especially as a psychiatrist.
尤其是作为一名精神科医生。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Well, I wasn't a psychiatrist back then.
好吧，那时我还不是精神科医生。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
And so then it's like, okay, well, now we have to figure this out.
所以这就好像，好吧，现在我们必须解决这个问题。
So if people are interested in scientific exploration, I think one of the sad things about the world is we've explored the surface, we figured it out.
因此，如果人们对科学探索感兴趣，我认为世界上最悲伤的事情之一就是我们已经探索了表面，我们找到了答案。
But within every single one of us is a dimension of exploration that only you can do.
但我们每个人内心都有一个只有你才能进行的探索维度。
Do you think when we're talking about samskaras, sankalpa, the unconscious parts of our mind, these liminal states of consciousness, we can hear Andrew talk about it, but if you want to be there, you have to go there.
你认为当我们谈论samskaras、sankalpa、我们心灵的无意识部分、这些意识的阈限状态时，我们可以听到安德鲁谈论它，但如果你想在那里，你就必须去那里。
No one can go there for you.
没有人可以帮你去那里。
And that's ultimately what I think is really cool about it.
最终我认为这才是真正酷的地方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Man, you are one of a kind I have to say.
伙计，你是我不得不说的那种人。
And I also have to say there's so many things that we didn't cover-
我还不得不说，有很多事情我们没有涵盖 -
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but that I would love to have you back to cover at some point soon.
但我希望您能尽快回来报道。
But I just want to say you're really one of a kind.
但我只想说你真的是独一无二的。
I've been kind of peppering our conversation with this from time to time, but again, the degree and the depth to which you're able to think about the practical concerns that people have, the real problems, the real challenges that they face right now, and then offer tools that are grounded in neuroscience, psychiatry, psychology, and also ancient practices, it's spectacular.
我时不时地在我们的谈话中提到这一点，但同样，你能够在多大程度上和深度思考人们所面临的实际问题、真正的问题、他们现在面临的真正挑战，然后提供基于神经科学、精神病学、心理学和古代实践的工具，这是令人惊叹的。
I have to say this is one of my favorite conversations I've ever had on or off the podcast.
我不得不说，这是我在播客内外进行过的最喜欢的对话之一。
I'm totally lit up by it and-
我完全被它照亮了——
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
so grateful for what you do.
非常感谢你所做的事情。
You're an amazing public educator, and I can't thank you enough for coming to talk about these topics.
您是一位了不起的公共教育家，我非常感谢您来谈论这些话题。
And I know that there's lots more that we could talk about, and we will.
我知道我们还有很多事情可以谈论，我们也会的。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I really want to extend my gratitude.
我真的很想表达我的谢意。
It's been an amazing thing to hear you touch into these things and to offer practical tools about ego dissolution, about distress tolerance, to make that operational awareness, to really define what that is, to talk about unlearning as such a critical component of our health.
听到你触及这些事情，并提供关于自我消解、痛苦忍受的实用工具，让人们形成操作意识，真正定义它是什么，谈论忘记学习是我们健康的一个重要组成部分，这是一件了不起的事情。
The shunya meditation example, and I was able to get moments of it during that-
顺雅冥想的例子，在那期间我能够得到它的时刻-
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
instruction, even though it was the first time I've ever done it.
指导，尽管这是我第一次这样做。
So many people are going to benefit from this, and I really want to encourage them to try these practices, to explore.
很多人将从中受益，我真的想鼓励他们尝试这些做法，进行探索。
Just as you said, there's really no substitute for that self-exploration.
正如你所说，自我探索确实是无可替代的。
Just thank you.
只是谢谢你。
It's fantastic.
太棒了。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Thank you for having me.
谢谢你有我。
Andrew, I got to say, you are also one of a kind.
安德鲁，我不得不说，你也是独一无二的。
I feel like you could still go.
我感觉你还是可以走的。
I'm wiped.
我被抹掉了
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I got more hours in me if we need to, but I want to be fair to our audience and to you.
如果需要的话，我还有更多的时间，但我想对我们的观众和你们公平。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
No, no. I mean, I can see that you've got more hours in you, and it's interesting.
不，不。我的意思是，我可以看到你有更多的时间，这很有趣。
I felt that gravity the moment you came into the room.
当你走进房间的那一刻我就感受到了重力。
But yeah, you're really energetic.
不过，是的，你真的很有活力。
And so it's been awesome being here, and thank you so much.
来到这里真是太棒了，非常感谢。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Well, the energy is only partially intrinsic.
嗯，能量只是部分内在的。
It's also the consequence of what you offered today.
这也是你今天提供的结果。
And again, this has been thrilling, so please come back again.
再说一次，这太令人兴奋了，所以请再次回来。
Dr. Alok Kanojia:
阿洛克·卡诺贾博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Alok Kanojia.
感谢您参加今天与 Alok Kanojia 博士的讨论。
To learn more about his work, please see the links in the show note captions.
要了解有关他的作品的更多信息，请参阅演出注释标题中的链接。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的关注按钮来关注播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。
And you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.
您现在可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客或嘉宾有意见，或者您希望我为 Huberman Lab 播客考虑的主题，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这本书是我花了五年多时间编写的，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验。
And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
它涵盖了从睡眠到运动再到压力控制的所有协议，以及与注意力和动机相关的协议，当然，我为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There you can find links to various vendors.
在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." And if you're not already following me on social media, I am hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 hubermanlab。
So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。
Again, it's hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
再说一遍，所有社交媒体平台上都是 hubermanlab。
And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.
我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。
All of that is available completely zero cost.
所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter, and enter your email.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的“菜单”选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件即可。
And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Alok Kanojia.
再次感谢您参加今天与 Alok Kanojia 博士的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。