Understand and Use Dreams to Learn and Forget

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

This podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is however part of my desire to bring you zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools.

然而，我希望为您带来有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本信息，这是我的愿望的一部分。

In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。

Today we're going to talk about dreaming, learning during dreaming, and unlearning during dreaming, in particular, unlearning of troubling emotional events.

今天我们要讨论做梦、在做梦中学习、在做梦中忘却，特别是忘却令人烦恼的情绪事件。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Now, my interest in dreaming goes way back.

现在，我对梦想的兴趣由来已久。

When I was a child, I had a friend and he came over one day and he brought with him a mask that had a little red light in the corner.

当我还是个孩子的时候，我有一个朋友，有一天他过来，带来了一个面具，面具的角落里有一点红光。

He had purchased this thing through some magazine ad that he had seen, and this mask was supposed to trigger lucid dreaming.

这个东西是他通过看到的杂志广告购买的，这个面具应该会引发清醒梦。

Lucid dreaming is the experience of dreaming during sleep, but being aware that one is dreaming, and in some cases being able to direct one's dream activities.

清醒梦是一种在睡眠期间做梦的体验，但意识到自己正在做梦，并且在某些情况下能够指导自己的梦活动。

So if you're in a lucid dream and you want to fly, for instance, some people report being able to initiate that experience of flying, or to contort themselves into an animal or to transport themselves to wherever they want within the dream.

例如，如果你处于清醒梦中并且想要飞行，有些人报告说能够启动飞行体验，或者将自己扭曲成动物，或者将自己传送到梦中他们想要的任何地方。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I tried this device.

我尝试过这个设备。

The way it worked is you put on the mask during a waking state, wide awake, and you'd look at the little light flashing in the corner, and then you'd also wear it when you went to sleep at night.

它的工作原理是，你在清醒状态下戴上面具，完全清醒，你会看着角落里闪烁的小灯，然后当你晚上睡觉时也戴上它。

And indeed, while I was asleep, I could see the red light presumably through my eyelids.

事实上，当我睡​​着的时候，我大概可以通过我的眼睑看到红光。

Although, for all I know I had opened my eyes, I don't know, I was asleep.

尽管据我所知我已经睁开了眼睛，但我不知道，我已经睡着了。

And then because I was dreaming and I was experiencing something very vivid, I was able to recognize that I was dreaming and then start to direct some of the events within that dream.

然后因为我在做梦并且我正在经历一些非常生动的事情，我能够认识到我在做梦，然后开始指挥梦中的一些事件。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Now, lucid dreaming occurs in about 20% of people.

现在，大约 20% 的人会做清醒梦。

And in a small percentage of those people, they lucid dream almost every night.

其中一小部分人几乎每晚都会做清醒梦。

So much so that many of them report their sleep not being as restorative as it would be otherwise.

以至于他们中的许多人报告说他们的睡眠不如其他情况下那样恢复活力。

Now all of this is to say that lucid dreaming and dreaming are profound experiences.

所有这一切都表明，清醒梦和做梦是深刻的体验。

We tend to feel extremely attached to our dream experience.

我们往往对我们的梦想经历感到极度依恋。

This may explain the phenomenon of people who have a very intense dream.

这可以解释人们做非常强烈的梦的现象。

They need to somehow tell everybody about that dream or tell someone about that dream.

他们需要以某种方式告诉每个人这个梦想，或者告诉某人这个梦想。

I don't really know what that behavior is about, but sometimes we wake up and we feel so attached to what happened in this state that we call dreaming, that there seems to be an intense need to share it with other people, presumably to process it and make sense of it.

我真的不知道这种行为是关于什么的，但有时我们醒来，我们对这种我们称之为做梦的状态下发生的事情感到如此依恋，似乎有强烈的需要与其他人分享它，大概是为了处理它并理解它。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Now, numerous people throughout history have tried to make sense of dreams in some sort of organized way.

现在，历史上有许多人试图以某种有组织的方式来理解梦。

The most famous of which, of course, is Sigmund Freud, who talked about symbolic representations in dreams.

其中最著名的当然是西格蒙德·弗洛伊德，他谈到了梦中的象征表征。

A lot of that has been kind of debunked, although I think that there's some interest in what the symbols of dreaming are, and this is something that we'll talk about in more depth today, although not Freudian theory in particular.

尽管我认为人们对梦的象征是什么感兴趣，但其中很多内容都已被揭穿，这是我们今天将更深入讨论的内容，尽管不是特别是弗洛伊德理论。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So I think in order to really think about dreams and what to do with them and how to maximize the dream experience for sake of learning and unlearning, the best way to address this is to look at the physiology of sleep, to really address what do we know concretely about sleep?

因此，我认为，为了真正思考梦以及如何处理梦，以及如何最大化梦体验以进行学习和忘却，解决这个问题的最佳方法是研究睡眠的生理学，真正解决我们对睡眠的具体了解？

So first of all, as we get sleepy, we tend to shut our eyes, and that's because there are some autonomic centers in the brain, some neurons that control closing of the eyelids when we get sleepy.

首先，当我们犯困时，我们倾向于闭上眼睛，这是因为大脑中有一些自主中心，一些神经元在我们犯困时控制眼睑的闭合。

And then we transition into sleep.

然后我们进入睡眠状态。

And sleep, regardless of how long we sleep, is generally broken up into a series of 90-minute cycles, these ultradian cycles.

而睡眠，无论我们睡多久，通常都会分为一系列 90 分钟的周期，这些超电周期。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So early in the night, these 90-minute cycles tend to be comprised more of shallow sleep and slow-wave sleep.

因此，在晚上早些时候，这些 90 分钟的周期往往更多地由浅睡眠和慢波睡眠组成。

So stage one, stage two, etcetera, and what we call slow-wave sleep.

第一阶段、第二阶段等等，也就是我们所说的慢波睡眠。

I'll go into detail about what all this means in a moment.

稍后我将详细介绍这一切的含义。

And we tend to have less so-called REM sleep, REM sleep, which stands for rapid-eye-movement sleep.

而且我们的所谓快速眼动睡眠（REM sleep，即快速眼动睡眠）往往较少。

And I'll talk about rapid-eye-movement sleep in detail.

我将详细讨论快速眼动睡眠。

So early in the night, a lot more slow-wave sleep and less REM.

因此，在深夜，需要更多的慢波睡眠和更少的快速眼动睡眠。

For every 90-minute cycle that we have during a night of sleep, we tend to start having more and more REM sleep.

每晚睡眠期间每有一个 90 分钟的周期，我们就会开始有越来越多的快速眼动睡眠。

So more of that 90-minute cycle is comprised of REM sleep and less of slow-wave sleep.

因此，90 分钟的周期中有更多的时间是快速眼动睡眠，而慢波睡眠则较少。

Now this is true regardless of whether or not you wake up at the middle of the night to use the restroom or your sleep is broken.

现在，无论你是否半夜起床去洗手间或者你的睡眠是否被打破，这都是事实。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The more sleep you're getting across the night, the more REM sleep you're going to have.

您整晚的睡眠越多，快速眼动睡眠就越多。

And REM sleep and non-REM as I'll refer to it, have distinctly different roles in learning and unlearning.

我将提到的快速眼动睡眠和非快速眼动睡眠在学习和忘却方面有着截然不同的作用。

And they are responsible for learning and unlearning of distinctly different types of information.

他们负责学习和忘却截然不同类型的信息。

And this has enormous implications for learning of motor skills, for unlearning of traumatic events or for processing emotionally challenging as well as emotionally pleasing events.

这对于学习运动技能、忘记创伤事件或处理情绪上具有挑战性和情绪上愉悦的事件具有巨大的影响。

And as we'll see, one can actually leverage their daytime activities in order to access more slow-wave sleep or non-REM sleep as we'll call it, or more REM sleep, depending on your particular emotional and physical needs.

正如我们将看到的，人们实际上可以利用白天的活动来获得更多的慢波睡眠或我们所说的非快速眼动睡眠，或者更多的快速眼动睡眠，具体取决于您特定的情感和身体需求。

So it's really a remarkable stage of life that we have a lot more control and power over than you might believe.

所以这确实是人生的一个非凡阶段，我们拥有比你想象的更多的控制权和权力。

We'll also talk about lucid dreaming.

我们还将讨论清醒梦。

We're also going to talk about hallucinations and how drug-induced hallucinations have a surprising similarity to a lot of dream states and yet some really important differences.

我们还将讨论幻觉，以及药物引起的幻觉与许多梦境有何惊人的相似之处，但又存在一些非常重要的差异。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay, so let's start by talking about slow-wave sleep or non-REM sleep.

好的，让我们首先讨论慢波睡眠或非快速眼动睡眠。

Now I realize that slow-wave sleep and non-REM sleep aren't exactly the same thing.

现在我意识到慢波睡眠和非快速眼动睡眠并不完全相同。

So for you sleep aficionados out there, I am lumping right now, as we say in science, there are lumpers and there are splitters and I am both.

因此，对于你们这些睡眠爱好者来说，我现在正处于混杂状态，正如我们在科学中所说的那样，有混杂者，也有分裂者，而我两者都是。

Sometimes I lump, sometimes I split.

有时我结块，有时我分裂。

For sake of clarity and ease of conversation right now, I'm going to be a lumper.

为了现在的清晰和方便对话，我将成为一个笨蛋。

When I say slow-wave sleep, I mean non-REM sleep generally, although I acknowledge there is a distinction.

当我说慢波睡眠时，我通常指的是非快速眼动睡眠，尽管我承认两者之间存在区别。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Slow-wave sleep.

慢波睡眠。

So slow-wave sleep is characterized by a particular pattern of brain activity in which the brain is metabolically active, but that there's these big sweeping waves of activity that include a lot of the brain.

因此，慢波睡眠的特点是一种特殊的大脑活动模式，其中大脑的新陈代谢活跃，但这些大范围的活动波涵盖了大脑的大部分区域。

If you want to look this up there you can find evidence for sweeping of waves of neural activity across association cortex, across big swaths of the brain stem, the so-called ponds geniculate occipital pathway.

如果你想在那里查找，你可以找到证据证明神经活动波席卷了联合皮层、脑干​​的大片区域，即所谓的膝状枕叶通路。

This is brain stem, thalamus, and then cortex, for those of you that are interested, although more of that is going to occur in REM sleep.

对于那些感兴趣的人来说，这是脑干、丘脑，然后是皮质，尽管更多的情况会发生在快速眼动睡眠中。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Now the interesting thing about slow-wave sleep are the neuromodulators that tend to be associated with it, that are most active and least active during slow-wave sleep.

现在，关于慢波睡眠的有趣之处在于往往与之相关的神经调节剂，它们在慢波睡眠期间最活跃和最不活跃。

And here's why.

原因如下。

To remind you, neuromodulators are these chemicals that act rather slowly, but their main role is to bias particular brain circuits to be active and other brain circuits to not be active.

提醒您一下，神经调节剂是这些作用相当缓慢的化学物质，但它们的主要作用是偏向特定的大脑回路活跃，而其他大脑回路不活跃。

These are like the music playlists.

这些就像音乐播放列表。

So think of neuromodulators, and these come in the names of acetylcholine, norepinephrine, serotonin and dopamine, think of them as suggesting playlists on your audio device.

因此，想想神经调节剂，它们以乙酰胆碱、去甲肾上腺素、血清素和多巴胺的名字出现，把它们想象成在你的音频设备上建议播放列表。

So classical music is distinctly different in feel and tone and a number of other features from like third-wave punk or from hip hop, right?

所以古典音乐在感觉和音调以及许多其他特征上与第三波朋克或嘻哈音乐明显不同，对吗？

So think of them as biasing toward particular genres of neural circuit activity, okay?

因此，可以将它们视为偏向特定类型的神经回路活动，好吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mellow music versus really aggressive fast music or rhythmic music that includes lyrics versus rhythmic music that doesn't include lyrics.

柔和的音乐与真正激进的快速音乐或包含歌词的节奏音乐与不包含歌词的节奏音乐。

That's more or less the way to think about these neuromodulators.

这或多或少是思考这些神经调节剂的方式。

And they are associated as a consequence with certain brain functions.

因此它们与某些大脑功能相关。

So we know for instance, and just to review, acetylcholine in waking states is a neuromodulator that tends to amplify the activity of brain circuits associated with focus and attention.

例如，我们知道，清醒状态下的乙酰胆碱是一种神经调节剂，它往往会增强与注意力相关的大脑回路的活动。

Norepinephrine is a neuromodulator that tends to amplify the brain circuits associated with alertness and the desire to move.

去甲肾上腺素是一种神经调节剂，可以增强与警觉性和运动欲望相关的大脑回路。

Serotonin is the neuromodulator that's released and tends to amplify the circuits in the brain and body that are associated with bliss and the desire to remain still.

血清素是一种神经调节剂，它被释放并倾向于放大大脑和身体中与幸福和保持静止的愿望相关的回路。

And dopamine is the neuromodulator that's released and is associated with amplification of the neural circuits in the brain and body associated with pursuing goals and pleasure and reward.

多巴胺是一种神经调节剂，它被释放，与大脑和身体神经回路的放大有关，这些神经回路与追求目标、快乐和奖励有关。

Okay?

好的？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So in slow-wave sleep, something really interesting happens.

所以在慢波睡眠中，一些非常有趣的事情发生了。

There's essentially no acetylcholine.

基本上没有乙酰胆碱。

Acetylcholine production and release and action from the two major sites which are in the brain stem, which, from a nucleus, if it was a parabigeminal nucleus, if you really want to know, or from the forebrain, which is nucleus basalis, and you don't need to know these names, but if you like, that's why I put them out there.

乙酰胆碱的产生、释放和作用来自脑干的两个主要部位，如果你真的想知道的话，这两个部位来自细胞核，如果它是副二联核，或者来自前脑，也就是基底核，你不需要知道这些名字，但如果你愿意，这就是我把它们放在那里的原因。

Acetylcholine production plummets.

乙酰胆碱产量直线下降。

It's just almost to zero.

几乎为零。

And acetylcholine, as I just mentioned, is associated with focus.

正如我刚才提到的，乙酰胆碱与注意力有关。

So you can think of slow-wave sleep as these big sweeping waves of activity through the brain and a kind of distortion of space and time so that we're not really focusing on any one thing.

因此，您可以将慢波睡眠视为大脑中的这些大范围的活动波以及一种空间和时间的扭曲，这样我们就不会真正专注于任何一件事。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Now the other molecules that are very active at that time are norepinephrine, which is a little bit surprising because normally in waking states, norepinephrine is going to be associated with a lot of alertness and the desire to move, but there's not a ton of norepinephrine around in slow-wave sleep.

现在，当时非常活跃的其他分子是去甲肾上腺素，这有点令人惊讶，因为通常在清醒状态下，去甲肾上腺素会与大量的警觉性和运动的欲望相关，但在慢波睡眠中并没有大量的去甲肾上腺素。

But it is around.

但它就在身边。

So there's something associated with the movement circuitry going on in slow-wave sleep.

因此，慢波睡眠中发生的运动电路与某些因素有关。

And remember this is happening mostly at the beginning of the night.

请记住，这种情况主要发生在深夜刚开始的时候。

Your sleep is dominated by slow-wave sleep.

您的睡眠以慢波睡眠为主。

So no acetylcholine, very little norepinephrine, although there is some, and a lot of serotonin.

所以没有乙酰胆碱，很少有去甲肾上腺素，尽管有一些，还有大量的血清素。

And serotonin, again, is associated with this desire, this sensation of kind of bliss or wellbeing, but not a lot of movement.

血清素又与这种欲望、这种幸福或幸福的感觉有关，但与大量的运动无关。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And during sleep you tend not to move.

在睡眠期间，您往往不会动。

Now in slow-wave sleep, you can move.

现在在慢波睡眠中，您可以移动。

You're not paralyzed, so you can roll over.

你没有瘫痪，所以你可以翻身。

If people are going to sleepwalk, typically it's going to be during slow-wave sleep.

如果人们要梦游，通常是在慢波睡眠期间。

And what studies have shown through some kind of sadistic experiments where people are deprived specifically of slow-wave sleep, and that can be done by waking them up as soon as the electrode recording show that they're in slow-wave sleep or by chemically altering their sleep so that it biases them away from slow-wave sleep.

研究通过某种虐待实验表明，人们被特别剥夺了慢波睡眠，这可以通过在电极记录显示他们处于慢波睡眠时立即叫醒他们来实现，或者通过化学方法改变​​他们的睡眠，使他们远离慢波睡眠。

What studies have shown is that motor learning is generally occurring in slow-wave sleep.

研究表明，运动学习通常发生在慢波睡眠中。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So let's say the day before you go to sleep, you were learning some new dance move or you were learning some specific motor skill, either a fine motor skill or a course motor skill.

假设在您睡觉前一天，您正在学习一些新的舞蹈动作，或者您正在学习一些特定的运动技能，无论是精细运动技能还是粗略运动技能。

So let's say it's a new form of exercise or some new coordinated movements.

假设这是一种新的锻炼形式或一些新的协调动作。

This could be coordinated movement at the level of the fingers, or it could be coordinated movement at the level of the whole body and large limb movements.

这可以是手指层面的协调运动，也可以是全身和肢体大动作的协调运动。

It could involve other people or it could be a solo activity.

它可以涉及其他人，也可以是单独的活动。

Learning of those skills is happening primarily during slow-wave sleep in the early part of the night.

这些技能的学习主要发生在深夜的慢波睡眠期间。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In addition, slow-wave sleep has been shown to be important for the learning of detailed information.

此外，慢波睡眠已被证明对于学习详细信息很重要。

Now this isn't always cognitive information; we're going to talk about cognitive information; but the studies that have been done along these lines involve having people learn very detailed information about very specific rules and the way that certain words are spelled, they tend to be challenging words.

现在，这并不总是认知信息；而是认知信息。我们要讨论的是认知信息；但是沿着这些思路进行的研究涉及让人们学习有关非常具体的规则和某些单词的拼写方式的非常详细的信息，它们往往是具有挑战性的单词。

So if people are tested in terms of their performance on these types of exams and they're deprived of slow-wave sleep, they tend to perform very poorly.

因此，如果人们在这些类型的考试中接受测试，并且他们被剥夺了慢波睡眠，他们往往会表现得很差。

So we can think of slow-wave sleep as important for motor learning, motor skill learning, and for the learning of specific details about specific events.

因此，我们可以认为慢波睡眠对于运动学习、运动技能学习以及特定事件的具体细节的学习很重要。

And this turns out to be fundamentally important because now we know that slow-wave sleep is primarily in the early part of the night, and motor learning is occurring primarily early in the night and detail learning is occurring early in the night.

事实证明，这一点非常重要，因为现在我们知道，慢波睡眠主要发生在深夜，运动学习主要发生在深夜，而细节学习则发生在深夜。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Now for those of you that are waking up after only three, four hours of sleep, this might be informative.

对于那些只睡了三、四个小时就醒来的人来说，这可能会提供一些信息。

This might tell you a little something about what you are able to learn and not able to learn if that were to be the only sleep that you get, although hopefully that's not the only sleep that you get.

如果这是您获得的唯一睡眠，这可能会告诉您一些关于您能够学习和无法学习的内容，尽管希望这不是您获得的唯一睡眠。

But we're going to dive deep into how it is that one can maximize motor learning in order to extract, say, more detail information about coordinated movements and how to make them faster or slower.

但我们将深入探讨如何最大化运动学习，以便提取有关协调运动以及如何使运动更快或更慢的更多详细信息。

So that might be important for certain sports.

所以这对于某些运动可能很重要。

That might be almost certainly important for certain sports.

这对于某些运动来说几乎肯定很重要。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's going to be important for any kind of coordinated movement like, say, learning to play the piano or, for instance, how to learn synchronized movements with somebody else.

这对于任何类型的协调运动都很重要，例如学习弹钢琴，或者例如如何学习与其他人的同步运动。

I mentioned the example of dance earlier.

我之前提到过舞蹈的例子。

Like me, a few years ago I set out to learn tango because I have some Argentine relatives, and I was abysmal; I need to return to that at some point.

像我一样，几年前我开始学习探戈，因为我有一些阿根廷亲戚，但我的成绩很糟糕；我需要在某个时候回到这一点。

I was just abysmal.

我简直糟透了。

And one of the worst things about being abysmal at learning dance is that somebody else has to suffer the consequences also.

学习舞蹈很糟糕的最糟糕的事情之一就是其他人也必须承受后果。

I don't know, maybe in the month on neuroplasticity, I'll explore that again as a self-experimentation.

我不知道，也许在神经可塑性这个月，我会再次探索这个问题作为自我实验。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But the key things to know are slow-wave sleep's involved in motor learning and detailed learning.

但需要了解的关键是慢波睡眠参与运动学习和细节学习。

There's no acetylcholine around at that time, has these big amplitude activity sweeping throughout the brain, and that there's the release of these neuromodulators, norepinephrine and serotonin.

那时周围没有乙酰胆碱，这些大幅度的活动席卷整个大脑，并且释放了这些神经调节剂、去甲肾上腺素和血清素。

And again, that's all happening early in the night.

再说一次，这一切都发生在深夜。

So athletes, people that are concerned about performance, if you happen to wake up after just a couple hours of three, four hours of sleep because you're excited about a competition the next day, presumably, if you've already trained the skills that you need for the event, you should be fine to engage in that particular activity.

因此，运动员，那些关心表现的人，如果你碰巧在三四个小时的睡眠后醒来，因为你对第二天的比赛感到兴奋，那么如果你已经训练了比赛所需的技能，那么你应该可以参加这项特定的活动。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Now it's always going to be better to get a full night's sleep and a full night sleep for you is six hours.

现在，睡一整夜总是更好，而睡一整夜对您来说是六个小时。

Then it's always going to be better to get more sleep than it is to get less.

那么多睡总比少睡好。

However, I think some people get a little bit overly concerned that if they didn't get their full night's sleep before some sort of physical event that their performance is going to plummet.

然而，我认为有些人有点过于担心，如果他们在某种身体活动之前没有得到整晚的睡眠，他们的表现就会直线下降。

Presumably, if you've already learned what you need to do and it's stored in your neural circuits and you know how to make those coordinated movements, what the literature on slow-wave sleep suggests is that you would be replenished, that the motor learning and the recovery from exercise is going to happen early in the night.

据推测，如果你已经学会了你需要做什么，并且它存储在你的神经回路中，并且你知道如何进行这些协调运动，那么关于慢波睡眠的文献表明，你会得到补充，运动学习和从运动中恢复将在晚上早些时候发生。

So we'll just pause there and kind of shelve that for a moment and then we're going to come back to it.

所以我们就在这里暂停一下，暂时搁置一下，然后我们再回来讨论这个问题。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But I want to talk about REM sleep or rapid-eye-movement sleep.

但我想谈谈快速眼动睡眠或快速眼动睡眠。

REM sleep and rapid-eye-movement sleep, as I mentioned before, occurs throughout the night, but you're going to have more of it.

正如我之前提到的，快速眼动睡眠和快速眼动睡眠发生在整个晚上，但你会拥有更多的睡眠。

A larger percentage of these 90-minute sleep cycles is going to be comprised of REM sleep as you get toward morning.

当您接近早晨时，这些 90 分钟的睡眠周期中很大一部分将由快速眼动睡眠组成。

REM sleep is fascinating.

快速眼动睡眠是令人着迷的。

It was discovered in the '50s when a sleep laboratory in Chicago, the researchers observed that people's eyes were moving under their eyelids.

上世纪50年代，芝加哥的一个睡眠实验室的研究人员观察到人们的眼睛在眼睑下移动时发现了这一点。

Now something very important that we're going to address when we talk about trauma later is that the eye movements are not just side to side.

现在，当我们稍后讨论创伤时，我们要解决的非常重要的事情是眼球运动不仅仅是左右移动。

They're very erratic in all different directions.

它们在各个不同方向上都非常不稳定。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

One thing that I've never heard anyone really talk about publicly is why eye movements during sleep, right?

我从未听任何人真正公开谈论过一件事，那就是为什么在睡眠期间眼睛会运动，对吗？

Eyes are closed and sometimes people's eyelids will be a little bit open and their eyes are darting around, especially in little kids.

眼睛是闭着的，有时人们的眼睑会稍微张开，眼睛会四处乱转，尤其是小孩子。

I don't suggest you do this, I'm not even sure it's ethical, but it has been done where you pull back the eyelids of a kid while they're sleeping and their eyes are kind of darting all over the place.

我不建议你这样做，我什至不确定这是否道德，但确实有人这样做过，当你在孩子睡觉时拉开他们的眼睑，他们的眼睛就会到处乱跳。

I think people do this to their passed-out friends at parties and things like that.

我认为人们会在聚会或类似的事情上对昏倒的朋友这样做。

So again, I don't suggest you do it, but I'm telling you because it's been done before and therefore you don't have to do it again.

再说一遍，我不建议您这样做，但我告诉您，因为以前已经这样做过，因此您不必再这样做。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But rapid-eye-movement sleep is fascinating and occurs because there are connections between the brain stem, an area called the pons and areas of the thalamus and the top of the brain stem that are involved in generating movements in different directions, sometimes called saccades, although sometimes during rapid-eye-movement sleep, it's not just rapid, it's kind of a jittery side to side thing.

但快速眼动睡眠之所以令人着迷，是因为脑干、脑桥区域、丘脑区域和脑干顶部之间存在联系，这些区域参与产生不同方向的运动，有时称为眼跳，尽管有时在快速眼动睡眠期间，它不仅是快速的，而且是一种左右摇晃的现象。

And then the eyeballs kind of roll.

然后眼球就会转动。

It's really pretty creepy to look at if you see.

如果你看到的话，真的很令人毛骨悚然。

So what's happening there is the circuitry that is involved in conscious eye movements is kind of going haywire, but it's not haywire.

因此，与有意识的眼球运动有关的电路有点失控，但它并不是失控。

It's these waves of activity from the brain stem up to the so-called thalamus, which is an area that filters sensory information, and then up to the cortex.

这些活动波从脑干一直到所谓的丘脑（这是一个过滤感觉信息的区域），然后一直到皮质。

And the cortex, of course, is involved in conscious perceptions.

当然，大脑皮层也参与有意识的感知。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So in rapid-eye-movement-sleep, there are a couple things that are happening besides rapid eye movements.

因此，在快速眼动睡眠中，除了快速眼动之外，还发生了一些事情。

The main ones are that they're, I should say, in contrast to slow-wave sleep.

我应该说，最主要的是它们与慢波睡眠形成对比。

In REM sleep, serotonin is essentially absent.

在快速眼动睡眠中，血清素基本上不存在。

So this molecule, this neuromodulator layer that tends to create the feeling of bliss and wellbeing and just calm placidity is absent.

因此，这种能够产生幸福感、幸福感和平静感的分子、神经调节层是不存在的。

All right?

好的？

So, that's interesting.

所以，这很有趣。

In addition to that, norepinephrine, this molecule that's involved in movement and alertness, is absolutely absent.

除此之外，去甲肾上腺素（这种与运动和警觉性有关的分子）绝对不存在。

It's probably one of the few times in our life that epinephrine is essentially at zero activity within our system, and that has a number of very important implications for the sorts of dreaming that occur during REM sleep and the sorts of learning that can occur in REM sleep and unlearning.

这可能是我们一生中为数不多的肾上腺素在我们的系统内基本上处于零活性的情况之一，这对于快速眼动睡眠期间发生的做梦以及快速眼动睡眠期间可能发生的学习和忘却有着许多非常重要的影响。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

First of all, in REM sleep, we are paralyzed.

首先，在快速眼动睡眠中，我们处于瘫痪状态。

We are experiencing what's called atonia, which just means that we're completely laid out and paralyzed.

我们正在经历所谓的缺乏活力，这意味着我们完全陷入瘫痪。

We also tend to experience whatever it is that we're dreaming about as a kind of hallucination or a hallucinatory activity.

我们也倾向于将我们梦到的任何事物视为一种幻觉或幻觉活动。

Long ago I looked into hallucinations and dreaming.

很久以前我研究过幻觉和梦境。

I was just fascinated by this in high school, and there's some great books on this if you're interested in exploring the relationship between hallucinations and dreaming.

我在高中时就对此很着迷，如果你有兴趣探索幻觉和梦之间的关系，有一些关于这方面的好书。

The most famous of which are from a guy, a researcher at Harvard, Allan Hobson wrote a book called "Dream Drugstore" and talked all about the similarities between drugs that induce hallucinations and dreaming in REM.

其中最著名的是一个人，哈佛大学的研究员艾伦·霍布森（Allan Hobson）写了一本名为《梦想药店》的书，并谈到了引起幻觉和快速眼动睡眠中做梦的药物之间的相似之处。

So you can explore that if you like.

所以如果你愿意的话，你可以探索一下。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So in REM, our eyes are moving, but the rest of our body is paralyzed and we are hallucinating.

所以在快速眼动睡眠中，我们的眼睛在转动，但身体的其他部分却瘫痪了，我们产生了幻觉。

There's no epinephrine around.

周围没有肾上腺素。

Epinephrine doesn't just create a desire to move, an alertness.

肾上腺素不仅仅会产生运动的欲望和警觉性。

It is also the chemical signature of fear and anxiety.

它也是恐惧和焦虑的化学特征。

It's what's released from our adrenal glands when we experience something that's fearful or alerting.

当我们经历可怕或警觉的事情时，肾上腺会释放出这种物质。

So if a car suddenly screeches in front of us or we get a troubling text message, adrenaline is deployed into our system.

因此，如果一辆汽车突然在我们面前发出尖叫声，或者我们收到一条令人不安的短信，肾上腺素就会被部署到我们的系统中。

Adrenaline is epinephrine.

肾上腺素就是肾上腺素。

Those are equivalent molecules.

这些是等效的分子。

And epinephrine isn't just released from our adrenals, it's also released within our brain.

肾上腺素不仅从我们的肾上腺释放，它也在我们的大脑中释放。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So there's this weird stage of our life that happens more toward morning that we call REM sleep where we are hallucinating and having these outrageous experiences in our mind, but the chemical that's associated with fear and panic and anxiety is not available to us.

因此，我们生命中有一个奇怪的阶段，更多地发生在早上，我们称之为快速眼动睡眠，在这个阶段我们会产生幻觉，脑海中会有这些令人震惊的经历，但与恐惧、恐慌和焦虑相关的化学物质对我们来说却无法利用。

And that turns out to be very important.

事实证明这非常重要。

And you can imagine why that's important.

您可以想象为什么这很重要。

It's important because it allows us to experience things, both a replay of things that did occur as well as elaborate contortions of things that didn't occur.

它很重要，因为它使我们能够体验事物，既可以重播已发生的事情，也可以对未发生的事情进行精心扭曲。

And it allows us to experience those in the absence of fear and anxiety.

它使我们能够在没有恐惧和焦虑的情况下体验这些。

And that it turns out is very important for adjusting our emotional relationship to challenging things that happened to us while we were awake.

事实证明，这对于调整我们的情感关系以应对清醒时发生在我们身上的事情非常重要。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Those challenging things can sometimes be in the form of social anxiety or just having been working very hard or a concern about an upcoming event.

这些具有挑战性的事情有时可能表现为社交焦虑，或者只是工作非常努力，或者担心即将发生的事件。

Or sometimes people report, for instance, dreams where they find themselves late to an exam or naked in public or in some sort of situation that would be very troubling to them.

或者有时人们会报告，例如，他们梦见自己考试迟到或在公共场合赤身裸体，或处于某种令他们非常不安的情况。

And that almost certainly occurs during REM sleep.

这几乎肯定会发生在快速眼动睡眠期间。

So we have this incredible period of sleep in which our experience of emotionally laden events is dissociated.

因此，我们有一段令人难以置信的睡眠时期，在这段时期，我们对充满情绪的事件的体验是分离的。

It's chemically blocked from us having the actual emotion.

它在化学上阻止了我们拥有真正的情感。

Now, probably immediately some of you are thinking, well, what about nightmares?

现在，可能你们中的一些人立刻就会想，那么，噩梦呢？

I have nightmares and those carry a lot of emotion, or sometimes I'll wake up in a panic.

我会做噩梦，那些噩梦带有很多情绪，有时我会惊慌地醒来。

Let's consider each of those two things separately because they are important in understanding REM sleep.

让我们分别考虑这两件事，因为它们对于理解快速眼动睡眠很重要。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There's a good chance that nightmares are occurring during slow-wave sleep.

噩梦很有可能发生在慢波睡眠期间。

There are actually some drugs that I don't suggest people take, in fact so much so I'm not going to mention them, that give people very scary or eerie dreams and this kind of feeling that things are pursuing them or that they can't move when they are being chased.

实际上有一些药物我不建议人们服用，事实上太多了所以我不会提及它们，它们会给人非常可怕或怪异的梦，以及这种感觉，有东西在追赶他们，或者当他们被追赶时他们无法动弹。

That's actually a common dream that I've had.

这实际上是我的一个共同的梦想。

I guess it's more or less a nightmare, the feeling that one is paralyzed and can't move and is being chased.

我想这或多或少是一场噩梦，一种全身瘫痪、动弹不得、被追赶的感觉。

A lot of people have said, "Oh, that must be in REM sleep, because you're paralyzed and so you're dreaming about being paralyzed and you can't move." I think that's probably false.

很多人都说，“哦，那一定是在快速眼动睡眠中，因为你瘫痪了，所以你会梦见自己瘫痪了，而且你无法动弹。”我认为这可能是假的。

The research says that because norepinephrine is absent during REM sleep, it's very unlikely that you can have these intense fearful memories.

研究表明，由于快速眼动睡眠期间不存在去甲肾上腺素，因此您不太可能拥有这些强烈的恐惧记忆。

So those are probably occurring in slow-wave sleep, although there might be instances where people have nightmares in REM sleep.

因此，这些可能发生在慢波睡眠中，尽管在某些情况下人们可能会在快速眼动睡眠中做噩梦。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The other thing is some people experience, certainly I've had this experience of waking up and feeling very stressed about whatever it was that I happened to be thinking about or dreaming about in the moments before.

另一件事是一些人的经历，当然我也有过这样的经历：醒来后，对之前我碰巧想到或梦到的事情感到非常有压力。

And that's an interesting case of an invasion of the dream state into the waking state.

这是梦境侵入清醒状态的一个有趣的例子。

And the moment you wake up, epinephrine is available.

当你醒来的那一刻，肾上腺素就出现了。

The research on this isn't fully crystallized, but most of it points in the direction of the experience of waking up and feeling very panicked.

对此的研究尚未完全具体化，但大部分都指向醒来后感到非常恐慌的经历。

Maybe, I want to highlight may, but maybe that you were experiencing something that was troubling in the daytime.

也许，我想强调可能，但也许你在白天经历了一些令人不安的事情。

You're repeating that experience in your sleep.

你在睡梦中重复着这种经历。

Epinephrine is not available and therefore the brain circuits associated with fear and anxiety are shut off.

肾上腺素无法获得，因此与恐惧和焦虑相关的大脑回路被关闭。

And so you're able to process those events.

这样您就可以处理这些事件。

And then suddenly you wake up and there's a surge of adrenaline, of epinephrine that's now coupled to that experience.

然后你突然醒来，肾上腺素激增，肾上腺素现在与这种经历结合在一起。

So nightmares, very likely in slow-wave sleep and that kind of panic on waking from something, very likely to be an invasion of the thoughts and ideas, however distorted in REM sleep invading the waking state.

因此，噩梦，很可能是在慢波睡眠中，以及从某件事中醒来时的那种恐慌，很可能是对思想和想法的入侵，无论在快速眼动睡眠中入侵清醒状态时有多么扭曲。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In fact, that brings to mind something that I've mentioned once before, but I want to mention again, this atonia, this paralysis that we experience during sleep, can invade the waking state.

事实上，这让我想起了我之前提到过的一些事情，但我想再次提及，我们在睡眠期间经历的这种失张力、这种麻痹可以侵入清醒状态。

Many people report the experience of waking up and being paralyzed.

许多人都报告了醒来后瘫痪的经历。

They're legitimately waking up.

他们正在合法地醒来。

It's not a dream.

这不是梦。

Waking up and being paralyzed and it is terrifying.

醒来后全身瘫痪，太可怕了。

I've had this happen before.

我以前也遇到过这种情况。

It is, I can tell you, terrifying to be wide awake, and as far as I could tell, fully conscious, but unable to move.

我可以告诉你，完全清醒是很可怕的，而且据我所知，意识完全清醒，但无法动弹。

And then generally you can jolt yourself out of it in a few seconds, but it is quite frightening.

然后通常你可以在几秒钟内将自己从其中摇醒，但这非常可怕。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Now some people actually experience waking up being fully paralyzed and hallucinating.

现在有些人醒来时确实经历了完全瘫痪和幻觉。

And there is a theory in the academic and scientific community, at least, that what people report as alien abductions have a certain number of core characteristics that map quite closely, eerily similarly to these experiences.

学术界和科学界至少有一个理论，即人们所报告的外星人绑架事件具有一定数量的核心特征，这些特征与这些经历非常接近，出奇地相似。

A lot of reports of alien abduction involve people being unable to move, seeing particular faces, hallucinating extensively, feeling like their body is floating or they were transported.

许多关于外星人绑架的报道都涉及到人们无法移动、看到特定的面孔、产生广泛的幻觉、感觉自己的身体正在漂浮或被传送。

This is very similar to the experience of invasion of atonia into the waking state, waking up and still being paralyzed as well as the hallucinations that are characteristic of dreaming in REM sleep.

这与失张力侵入清醒状态、醒来但仍处于瘫痪状态以及快速眼动睡眠中做梦特征的幻觉非常相似。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Now, I'm not saying that people's alien abductions were not legitimate alien abductions.

现在，我并不是说人们的外星人绑架不是合法的外星人绑架。

How could I?

我怎么能呢？

I wasn't there.

我当时不在场。

And if I was there, I wouldn't tell you because that would make me an alien and I wouldn't want you to know.

如果我在那里，我不会告诉你，因为那会让我成为一个外星人，而且我不想让你知道。

But it is quite possible that people are experiencing these things and they are an invasion of the sleep state into the waking state.

但人们很可能正在经历这些事情，它们是睡眠状态对清醒状态的入侵。

And they can last several minutes or longer.

它们可以持续几分钟或更长时间。

And because in dreams, space and time are distorted, our perception of these events could be that they lasted many hours and we can really feel as if they lasted many hours when in fact they took only moments.

因为在梦中，空间和时间是扭曲的，我们对这些事件的看法可能是它们持续了很多个小时，我们真的可以感觉到它们好像持续了很多个小时，而实际上它们只花了片刻。

And we're going to return to distortion of space and time in a little bit.

稍后我们将回到空间和时间的扭曲问题。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So to just recap where we've gone so far, slow-wave sleep, early in the night.

回顾一下我们到目前为止所取得的进展，在深夜进行慢波睡眠。

It's been shown to be important for motor learning and for detailed learning.

它已被证明对于运动学习和详细学习很重要。

REM sleep has a certain dream component, in which there's no epinephrine, therefore we can't experience anxiety, we are paralyzed.

快速眼动睡眠有一定的梦成分，其中没有肾上腺素，因此我们不会感到焦虑，我们会瘫痪。

Those dreams tend to be really vivid and have a lot of detail to them.

这些梦往往非常生动，并且有很多细节。

And yet in REM sleep what's very clear is that the sorts of learning that happen in REM sleep are not motor events, it's more about unlearning of emotional events.

然而，在快速眼动睡眠中，非常清楚的是，快速眼动睡眠中发生的学习不是运动事件，更多的是忘记情绪事件。

And now we know why, because the chemicals available for really feeling those emotions are not present.

现在我们知道原因了，因为真正感受这些情绪的化学物质并不存在。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Now that has very important implications.

这具有非常重要的意义。

So let's address those implications from two sides.

因此，让我们从两个方面来解决这些影响。

First of all, we should ask what happens if we don't get enough REM sleep?

首先，我们应该问如果我们没有获得足够的快速眼动睡眠会发生什么？

And a scenario that happens a lot where people don't get enough REM sleep is the following.

人们经常发生的快速眼动睡眠不足的情况如下。

I'll just explain the one that I'm familiar with because it happens to me a lot, although I've figured out ways to adjust.

我只会解释我熟悉的一个，因为这种情况经常发生在我身上，尽管我已经找到了调整的方法。

I go to sleep around 10:30, 11 o'clock, I fall asleep very easily, and then I wake up around 3:00 or 4:00 a.m..

我在10:30、11点左右睡觉，很容易入睡，然后在凌晨3:00或4:00左右醒来。

I now know to use a NSDR, a non-sleep deep rest protocol, and that allows me to fall back asleep.

我现在知道使用 NSDR，一种非睡眠深度休息方案，它可以让我重新入睡。

Even though it's called non-sleep deep rest, it really allows me to relax my body and brain and I tend to fall back asleep and sleep till about 7:00 a.m., during which time I get a lot of REM sleep.

尽管它被称为非睡眠深度休息，但它确实可以让我的身体和大脑放松，而且我往往会重新入睡并睡到早上 7:00 左右，在此期间我得到了大量的快速眼动睡眠。

And I know this because I've measured it and I know this because my dreams tend to be very intense of the sort that we know is typical of REM sleep.

我知道这一点是因为我测量过它，我知道这一点是因为我的梦往往非常强烈，我们知道这是典型的快速眼动睡眠。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In this scenario, I've gotten my slow-wave sleep early in the night and I've got my REM sleep toward morning.

在这种情况下，我在晚上早些时候进入了慢波睡眠，并在早上进入了快速眼动睡眠。

However, there are times when I don't go back to sleep, maybe I have a flight to catch.

然而，有时我不会回去睡觉，也许我要赶航班。

That's happened.

事情就这样发生了。

Sometimes I've got a lot on my mind and I don't go back to sleep.

有时候我脑子里有很多事情，就睡不着了。

I can tell you, and you've probably experienced that the lack of REM sleep tends to make people emotionally irritable.

我可以告诉你，你可能已经经历过，缺乏快速眼动睡眠往往会让人情绪烦躁。

It tends to make us feel as if the little things are the big things.

它往往让我们觉得小事就是大事。

So it's very clear from laboratory studies where people have been deprived selectively of REM sleep that our emotionality tends to get a little bit unhinged and we tend to catastrophize small things.

因此，从实验室研究中可以清楚地看出，当人们被选择性地剥夺快速眼动睡眠时，我们的情绪往往会变得有点精神错乱，而且我们往往会把小事当作灾难。

We tend to feel like the world is really daunting.

我们往往会觉得这个世界真的令人畏惧。

We're never going to move forward in the ways that we want.

我们永远不会按照我们想要的方式前进。

We can't unlearn the emotional components of whatever it is that's been happening, even if it's not traumatic.

我们无法忘记所发生的事情的情感成分，即使它不是创伤性的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The other thing that happens in REM sleep is a replay of certain types of spatial information about where we were and why we were in those places.

快速眼动睡眠中发生的另一件事是重播某些类型的空间信息，这些信息涉及我们在哪里以及为什么我们在这些地方。

And this maps to some beautiful data and studies that were initiated by a guy named Matt Wilson, at MIT, years ago showing that in rodents, and it turns out in other nonhuman primates and in humans, there's a replay of spatial information during REM sleep that almost precisely maps to the activity that we experience during the day as we move from one place to another.

这与麻省理工学院一位名叫马特·威尔逊(Matt Wilson)的人几年前发起的一些漂亮的数据和研究相吻合，这些数据和研究表明，在啮齿类动物中，在其他非人类灵长类动物和人类中，在快速眼动睡眠期间会重播空间信息，几乎精确地映射到我们白天从一个地方移动到另一个地方时所经历的活动。

So here's a common world scenario.

这是一个常见的世界场景。

You go to a new place, you navigate through that city or that environment.

你去了一个新地方，穿过那个城市或那个环境。

This place doesn't have to be at the scale of a city.

这个地方不必达到城市的规模。

It can be a new building, it could be finding particular rooms, a new social interaction.

它可以是一座新建筑，也可以是寻找特定的房间、一种新的社交互动。

You experience that and, if it's important enough, that becomes solidified a few days later and you won't forget it.

你会体验到这一点，如果它足够重要，几天后它就会变得更加牢固，你不会忘记它。

If it's unimportant, you'll probably forget it.

如果它不重要，你可能会忘记它。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

During REM sleep, there's a literal replay of the exact firing of the neurons that occurred while you were navigating that same city you were building earlier.

在快速眼动睡眠期间，您在之前建造的同一座城市中航行时发生的神经元放电会按字面意思重播。

So REM sleep seems to be involved in the generation of this detailed spatial information.

因此，快速眼动睡眠似乎参与了这种详细空间信息的生成。

But what is it that's actually happening in REM sleep?

但快速眼动睡眠中到底发生了什么？

So there's this uncoupling of emotion, but most of all what's happening in REM sleep is that we're forming a relationship with particular rules or algorithms.

因此，存在这种情绪的分离，但在快速眼动睡眠中最重要的是，我们正在与特定的规则或算法形成一种关系。

We're starting to figure out, based on all the experience that we had during the day, whether or not it's important that we avoid certain people or that we approach certain people, whether or not it's important that when we enter a building that we go into the elevator and turn left where the bathroom is, for instance, these general themes of things and locations and how they fit together.

根据我们白天的所有经历，我们开始弄清楚，我们避开某些人或接近某些人是否重要，当我们进入建筑物时，我们进入电梯并在浴室所在的地方左转是否重要，例如，事物和地点的这些一般主题以及它们如何组合在一起。

And that has a word.

还有一句话。

It's called meaning.

这就是所谓的意义。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

During our day we're experiencing all sorts of things.

在我们的日子里，我们正在经历各种各样的事情。

Meaning is how we each individually piece together the relevance of one thing to the next, right?

意义在于我们每个人如何将一件事与另一件事的相关性拼凑在一起，对吧？

So if I suddenly told you that this pen was downloading all the information to my brain that was important to deliver this information, you'd probably think I was a pretty strange character because typically we don't think of pens as downloading information into brains.

因此，如果我突然告诉你这支笔正在将所有信息下载到我的大脑中，这对于传递这些信息很重要，你可能会认为我是一个非常奇怪的角色，因为通常我们不认为笔会将信息下载到大脑中。

But if I told you that I was getting information from my computer that was allowing me to say things to you, you'd say, "Well, that's perfectly reasonable." And that's because we have a clear and agreed-upon association with computers and information and memory and we don't have that same association with pens.

但如果我告诉你我正在从我的计算机获取信息，这些信息允许我对你说话，你会说，“嗯，这是完全合理的。”这是因为我们与计算机、信息和记忆有着明确且一致的联系，而我们与笔却没有同样的联系。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You might say, "Well, duh.

你可能会说：“嗯，呃。

But something in our brain needs to solidify those relationships and make sure that certain relationships don't exist." And it appears that REM sleep is important for that because when you deprive yourself or people of REM, they start seeing odd associations.

但我们大脑中的某些东西需要巩固这些关系，并确保某些关系不存在。”快速眼动睡眠似乎对此很重要，因为当你剥夺自己或人们的快速眼动睡眠时，他们就会开始看到奇怪的联想。

They tend to lump or batch things.

他们倾向于把东西结块或分批。

I know this from my own experience if I've ever been sleep-deprived, which unfortunately happens too often because I'm terrible with deadlines, pulling an all-nighter, the word "the" starts to look like it's spelled incorrectly and the is a very simple word to spell, but things start to look a little distorted.

如果我曾经睡眠不足，我从自己的经验中知道这一点，不幸的是，这种情况经常发生，因为我对最后期限很不满意，通宵达旦，“the”这个词开始看起来拼写错误，而且 the 是一个非常简单的单词拼写，但事情开始看起来有点扭曲。

And we know that if people are deprived of REM sleep for very long periods of time, they start hallucinating.

我们知道，如果人们长时间被剥夺快速眼动睡眠，他们就会开始产生幻觉。

They literally start seeing relationships, and movement of objects that isn't happening.

他们确实开始看到没有发生的关系和物体的运动。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And so REM sleep is really where we establish the emotional load, but where we also start discarding of all the meanings that are irrelevant.

因此，快速眼动睡眠实际上是我们建立情绪负荷的地方，但我们也开始丢弃所有不相关的含义。

And if you think about emotionality, a lot of over-emotionality or catastrophizing is about seeing problems everywhere, and you could imagine why that might occur if you start linking the web of your experience too extensively.

如果你考虑情绪化，很多过度情绪化或灾难化都是因为到处都看到问题，你可以想象如果你开始过于广泛地链接你的经验网络，为什么会发生这种情况。

It's very important in order to have healthy emotional and cognitive functioning that we have fairly narrow channels between individual things.

为了拥有健康的情感和认知功能，我们在个体事物之间拥有相当狭窄的通道是非常重要的。

If we see something on the news that's very troubling, well, then it makes sense to be very troubled.

如果我们在新闻中看到一些非常令人不安的事情，那么我们感到非常不安也是有道理的。

But if we're troubled by everything and we start just saying, "Everything is bothering me and I'm feeling highly irritable and everything is just distorting and troubling me," chances are we are not actively removing the meaning, the connectivity between life experiences as well as we could.

但如果我们被一切事情困扰，我们开始只是说，“一切都困扰着我，我感到非常烦躁，一切都在扭曲和困扰我”，那么我们很可能没有尽可能积极地消除生活经历之间的意义和联系。

And that almost always maps back to a deficit in REM sleep.

这几乎总是与快速眼动睡眠不足有关。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So REM sleep is powerful and has this amazing capacity to eliminate the meanings that don't matter.

因此，快速眼动睡眠非常强大，具有消除不重要意义的惊人能力。

It's not that it exacerbates the meanings that do matter, but it eliminates the meanings that don't matter.

这并不是说它加剧了重要的意义，而是消除了不重要的意义。

And that bears a striking resemblance to what happens early in development.

这与开发早期发生的情况惊人相似。

This isn't a discussion about early in development, but early in development, the reason a baby can't generate coordinated movements and the reason why children can get very emotional about what seems like trivial events or what adults know to be trivial events like, oh, the ice cream shop is closed, and then the kid just dissolves into a puddle of tears and the parents say, "Okay, well, it'll be open again another time." Children, one of the reasons that they can't generate coordinated movement or place that event of the ice cream shop being closed into a larger context is because they have too much connectivity and much of the maturation of the brain and nervous system that brings us to the point of being emotionally stable, reasonable, rational human beings is about elimination of connections between things.

这不是在讨论发育早期，而是在发育早期，婴儿无法产生协调运动的原因，以及为什么孩子会对看似微不足道的事件或成年人知道的微不足道的事件变得非常情绪化，比如，哦，冰淇淋店关门了，然后孩子就泪流满面，父母说：“好吧，好吧，下次它会再次营业。”孩子们，他们无法产生协调的运动或将冰淇淋店被关门的事件置于更大的背景中的原因之一是因为他们有太多的连通性，而大脑和神经系统的成熟使我们成为情绪稳定、理性、理性的人类，这就是消除事物之间的联系。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So REM sleep seems to be where we uncouple the potential for emotionality between various experiences.

因此，快速眼动睡眠似乎是我们解开各种经历之间情绪潜力的地方。

And that brings us to the absolutely fundamental relationship and similarity of REM sleep to some of the clinical practices that have been designed to eliminate emotionality and help people move through trauma and other troubling experiences, whether or not those troubling experiences are a death in the family or of a close loved one, something terrible that happened to you or somebody else, or an entire childhood, or some event that in your mind and body is felt as and experienced as bad, terrible, or concerning.

这给我们带来了快速眼动睡眠与一些临床实践的绝对基本关系和相似性，这些临床实践旨在消除情绪并帮助人们度过创伤和其他令人不安的经历，无论这些令人不安的经历是家人或亲密亲人的死亡，发生在你或其他人身上的可怕的事情，或整个童年，或在你的思想和身体中感觉和经历的一些事件是糟糕的，可怕的或令人担忧的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Many of you perhaps have heard of trauma treatment such as EMDR, Eye Movement Desensitization Reprocessing, or ketamine treatment for trauma, something that recently became legal and is in fairly widespread clinical use.

你们中的许多人可能听说过创伤治疗，例如 EMDR、眼动脱敏再处理或氯胺酮治疗创伤，这些治疗最近变得合法并且在临床上相当广泛使用。

Interestingly enough, EMDR and ketamine, at kind of a core level, bear very similar features to REM sleep.

有趣的是，EMDR 和氯胺酮在核心层面上与快速眼动睡眠具有非常相似的特征。

So let's talk about EMDR first.

那么我们先来谈谈EMDR。

EMDR, Eye Movement Desensitization Reprocessing, is something that was developed by a psychologist, Francine Shapiro.

EMDR（眼动脱敏再处理）是由心理学家弗朗辛·夏皮罗（Francine Shapiro）开发的。

She actually was in Palo Alto.

她实际上在帕洛阿尔托。

And the story goes that she was walking not so incidentally in the trees and forests behind Stanford, and she was recalling a troubling event in her own mind.

据说，她在斯坦福大学后面的树木和森林中行走并非偶然，她在脑海中回忆起一件令人不安的事件。

So this would be from her own life.

所以这来自她自己的生活。

And she realized that as she was walking, the emotional load of that experience was not as intense or severe.

她意识到，当她走路时，那种经历的情感负担并不那么强烈或严重。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

She extrapolated from that experience of walking and not feeling as stressed about the stressful event to a practice that she put into work with her clients, with her patients, and that now has become fairly widespread.

她从步行的经历中推断出，她对压力事件没有感到那么紧张，并将其应用于她的客户和患者的工作中，现在这种做法已经变得相当普遍。

It's actually one of the few behavior treatments that are approved by the American Psychological Association for the treatment of trauma.

它实际上是美国心理协会批准用于治疗创伤的少数行为疗法之一。

What she had her clients and patients do was move their eyes from side to side while recounting some traumatic or troubling event.

她让她的客户和病人在讲述一些创伤性或令人不安的事件时，将他们的眼睛从一边移到另一边。

Now, this was, of course, in the clinic, and I'm guessing that she removed the walking component and just took the eye movement component to the clinic because while it would be nice to go on therapy sessions with your therapist and take walks, there are certain boundaries to that such as confidentiality.

现在，当然，这是在诊所里，我猜她去掉了步行组件，只是将眼动组件带到了诊所，因为虽然与治疗师一起进行治疗并散步会很好，但也有一定的界限，例如保密性。

If there are a lot of people around, a person might not feel as open to discussing things, or weather barriers and things like if it's raining or hailing outside, it gets tough to do.

如果周围有很多人，一个人可能不愿意讨论事情，或者天气障碍以及外面下雨或下冰雹之类的事情，这会变得很难做。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Why eye movements?

为什么眼球运动？

Well, she never really said why eye movements, but soon I'll tell you why the decision to select these lateralized eye movements for the work in the clinic was the right one.

好吧，她从来没有真正说过为什么眼球运动，但很快我就会告诉你为什么选择这些偏侧眼球运动来进行临床工作的决定是正确的。

So these eye movements, they look silly.

所以这些眼球运动看起来很傻。

I'll do them because that's why I'm here.

我会做这些，因为这就是我在这里的原因。

They look silly, but they basically involve sitting in a chair and moving one's eyes from side to side, not while talking.

它们看起来很傻，但基本上都是坐在椅子上，眼睛从一边移动到另一边，而不是一边说话。

But, you know, for me...

但是，你知道，对我来说...

And then recounting the event.

然后讲述了事件经过。

So it's sometimes talking while moving the eyes, but usually it was moving the eyes from side to side for 30 or 60 seconds.

所以有时它会一边移动眼睛一边说话，但通常它会左右移动眼睛 30 或 60 秒。

Then describing this challenging procedure.

然后描述这个具有挑战性的过程。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Now as a vision scientist who also works on stress, when I first heard this, I thought it was crazy, frankly.

现在，作为一名也从事压力研究的视觉科学家，当我第一次听到这个消息时，坦率地说，我认为这很疯狂。

People would ask me about EMDR and I just thought that's crazy.

人们会问我有关 EMDR 的问题，我只是觉得这太疯狂了。

I went and looked up some of the theories about why EMDR might work and there were a bunch of theories.

我查阅了一些关于 EMDR 为何有效的理论，其中有很多理论。

"Oh, it mimics the eye movements during REM sleep." That was one.

“哦，它模仿快速眼动睡眠期间的眼球运动。”那是一个。

Turns out that's not true.

事实证明这不是真的。

And I'll explain why.

我会解释原因。

The other one was, "Oh, it synchronizes the activity on the two sides of the brain." Well, sort of.

另一个是，“哦，它同步了大脑两侧的活动。”嗯，有点像。

I mean when you look into both sides of the binocular visual field, you activate the visual cortex.

我的意思是，当你观察双眼视野的两侧时，你会激活视觉皮层。

But this whole idea of synchrony between the two sides of the brain is something that I think modern neuroscience is starting to, let's just say gently or not so gently, move away from, this whole right-brain left-brain business.

但我认为现代神经科学正在开始，温和或不那么温和地摆脱整个右脑左脑事务。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It turns out, however, that eye movements of the sort that I just did and that Francine Shapiro took from this walk experience and brought to her clients in the clinic are the sorts of eye movements that you generate whenever you're moving through space, when you are self-generating that movement.

然而，事实证明，我刚才所做的那种眼球运动，以及弗朗辛·夏皮罗从这次步行经历中获得并带给她在诊所的客户的眼球运动，就是当你在空间中移动时，当你自我产生这种运动时，你产生的那种眼球运动。

So not so much when you're driving a car, but certainly if you are riding a bicycle or you are walking or you are running, you don't realize it, but you have these reflexive subconscious eye movements that go from side to side and they are associated with the motor system.

所以，当你开车的时候，情况就不那么明显了，但如果你骑自行车、走路或跑步，你肯定不会意识到这一点，但你有这些反射性的潜意识眼球运动，它们从一侧到另一侧，它们与运动系统相关。

So when you move forward, your eyes go like this.

所以当你向前走的时候，你的眼睛是这样的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There've been a number of studies showing that these lateralized eye movements helped people move through or dissociate the emotional experience of particular traumas with those experiences such that they could recall those experiences after the treatment and not feel stressed about them, or they didn't report them as traumatic any longer.

有许多研究表明，这些偏侧眼球运动可以帮助人们经历特定创伤的情绪体验或将这些经历与这些经历分离，这样他们就可以在治疗后回忆起这些经历，并且不会感到压力，或者他们不再将其报告为创伤。

Now the success rate wasn't 100%, but they were statistically significant in a number of studies.

现在成功率还不是100%，但在许多研究中具有统计学意义。

And yet there are still some critics of EMDR.

然而，仍然有一些人对 EMDR 持批评态度。

And frankly, for a long time I still thought, well, I don't know, this just seems like kind of a hack.

坦率地说，很长一段时间我仍然想，好吧，我不知道，这看起来像是一种黑客行为。

It just seems like kind of a...

这看起来就像是一种...

This is something for which we don't know the mechanism and we can't explain.

这是我们不知道其机制也无法解释的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But in the last five years there have been no fewer than five, and there's a sixth on the way, high-quality peer-reviewed manuscripts published in the Journal of Neuroscience; Neuron-Cell Press Journal, excellent journal; Nature, excellent journal.

但在过去的五年里，高质量的同行评审手稿已经发表在《神经科学杂志》上，不少于五篇，而且即将有第六篇； Neuron-Cell Press Journal，优秀期刊；自然，优秀的期刊。

These are very stringent journals and papers showing that lateralized eye movements of the sort that I just did, and if you're just listening to this it's just moving the eyes from side to side with eyes open, that those eye movements, but not vertical eye movements, suppress the activity of the amygdala, which is this brain region that is involved in threat detection, stress, anxiety and fear.

这些是非常严格的期刊和论文，表明我刚才所做的那种侧向眼球运动，如果你只是听这个，它只是在睁开眼睛的情况下将眼睛从一侧移动到另一侧，这些眼球运动，而不是垂直眼球运动，会抑制杏仁核的活动，杏仁核是涉及威胁检测、压力、焦虑和恐惧的大脑区域。

There are some forms of fear that are not amygdala-dependent, but the amygdala, it's not a fear center, but it is critical for the fear response and for the experience of anxiety.

有些形式的恐惧并不依赖于杏仁核，但杏仁核不是恐惧中心，但它对于恐惧反应和焦虑体验至关重要。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So, that's interesting.

所以，这很有趣。

We've got a clinical tool now that indeed shows a lot of success in a good number of people where eye movements from side to side are suppressing the amygdala and the general theme is to use those eye movements to suppress the fear response, and then to recount or repeat the experience and over time, uncouple the heavy emotional load, the sadness, the depression, the anxiety, the fear from whatever it was that happened that was traumatic.

我们现在有了一个临床工具，确实在很多人身上取得了很大的成功，眼球从一侧到另一侧的运动会抑制杏仁核，总的主题是利用这些眼球运动来抑制恐惧反应，然后重述或重复这段经历，随着时间的推移，将沉重的情绪负担、悲伤、抑郁、焦虑、恐惧与发生的创伤性事件分开。

This is important to understand, because I'd love to be able to tell somebody who had a traumatic experience that they would forget that experience.

理解这一点很重要，因为我很想告诉那些有过创伤经历的人，他们会忘记这段经历。

But the truth is you never forget the traumatic experience.

但事实是你永远不会忘记痛苦的经历。

What you do is you remove the emotional load.

你所做的就是消除情绪负担。

Eventually it really does lose its potency.

最终它确实失去了效力。

The emotional potency is alleviated.

情绪强度减弱。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Now, EMDR, I should just mention, tends to be most successful for single-event or very specific kinds of trauma that happen over and over as opposed to, say, an entire childhood or an entire divorce.

现在，我想提一下，EMDR 往往对于一次又一次发生的单一事件或非常特定类型的创伤最为成功，而不是整个童年或整个离婚。

It tends to be most effective for single-event kinds of things — car crashes, etcetera — where people can really recall the events in quite a lot of detail.

它对于单一事件类型的事情（车祸等）往往最有效，人们可以真正回忆起事件的很多细节。

So it's not for everybody and if it's going to be done for trauma, it should be done in a clinical setting with somebody who's certified to do this.

因此，它并不适合所有人，如果要治疗创伤，则应该在临床环境中由经过认证的人员进行。

But that bears a lot of resemblance to REM sleep, right?

但这与快速眼动睡眠有很多相似之处，对吧？

This experience in our sleep where our eyes are moving, although in a different way, but we don't have the chemical epinephrine in order to generate the fear response, and yet we're remembering the event from the previous day or days.

在我们的睡眠中，我们的眼睛在移动，尽管以不同的方式，但我们没有化学肾上腺素来产生恐惧反应，但我们仍然记得前一天或前几天的事件。

Sometimes in REM sleep, we think about things that happened a long, long time ago.

有时在快速眼动睡眠中，我们会想起很久很久以前发生的事情。

So, that's interesting.

所以，这很有趣。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And then now there's this new treatment, this chemical treatment with the drug ketamine, which also bears a lot of resemblance to the sorts of things that happen in REM sleep.

现在有一种新的治疗方法，这种用氯胺酮药物进行的化学治疗，它也与快速眼动睡眠中发生的事情有很多相似之处。

Ketamine is getting a lot of attention now, and I think a lot of people just don't realize what ketamine is.

氯胺酮现在受到了很多关注，我认为很多人只是不知道氯胺酮是什么。

Ketamine is a dissociative anesthetic.

氯胺酮是一种解离麻醉剂。

It is remarkably similar to the drug called PCP, which is certainly a hazardous drug for people to use.

它与称为五氯苯酚的药物非常相似，五氯苯酚对人们来说无疑是一种危险药物。

Ketamine and PCP both function to disrupt the activity of a particular receptor in the brain called the NMDA receptor, N-methyl-D-aspartate receptor.

氯胺酮和五氯苯酚都会破坏大脑中一种称为 NMDA 受体（N-甲基-D-天冬氨酸受体）的特定受体的活性。

This is a receptor that's in the surface of neurons, or on the surface of neurons, for which most of the time, it's not active.

这是一种位于神经元表面或神经元表面的受体，大多数时候它并不活跃。

But when something very extreme happens and there's a lot of activity in the neural pathway that impinges on that receptor, it opens and it allows the entry of molecules, ions that trigger a cellular process that we call long-term potentiation.

但是，当发生非常极端的事情并且神经通路中有大量活动影响该受体时，它就会打开并允许分子、离子进入，从而触发我们称之为长期增强的细胞过程。

And long-term potentiation translates to a change in connectivity, so that later you don't need that intense event for the neuron to become active again.

长时程增强会转化为连接性的变化，这样以后就不需要那种强烈的事件来让神经元再次变得活跃。

Let me clarify a little bit of this.

让我澄清一下这一点。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The NMDA receptor is gated by intense experience.

NMDA 受体由强烈的经验控制。

One way you could think about this is typically I walk in my home, I might make some food and sit down at my kitchen table and I don't think anything about explosions.

你可以想到的一种方式是，我通常在家里散步，我可能会做一些食物，然后坐在厨房的桌子旁，我不会想到任何关于爆炸的事情。

But were I to come home one night, sit down to a bowl of chicken soup and there was a massive explosion, the neurons that are associated with chicken soup at my kitchen table would be active in a way that was different than they were previously and would be coupled to this experience of explosions such that the next time and perhaps every other time that I go to sit down at the kitchen table, no matter how rational I am about the origins of that explosion — maybe it was a gas truck that was down the road and there's no reason to think it's there today —but I would have the same experience.

但是，如果有一天晚上我回到家，坐下来喝一碗鸡汤，然后发生大规模爆炸，那么与厨房餐桌上的鸡汤相关的神经元就会以一种与以前不同的方式活跃起来，并且会与这种爆炸体验结合在一起，这样，下一次，也许每隔一次，我坐在厨房的桌子旁，无论我对那次爆炸的起源有多么理性，也许这是一辆在路边的加油车，没有理由认为它在那里今天——但我也会有同样的经历。

Those neurons would become active and I'd get an increase in heart rate, I'd get an increase in sweating, etcetera.

这些神经元会变得活跃，我的心率会增加，出汗也会增加，等等。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Ketamine blocks this NMDA receptor and prevents that crossover and the addition of meaning to the kitchen table, chicken soup explosion experience.

氯胺酮会阻断这种 NMDA 受体，并防止这种交叉和为厨房餐桌、鸡汤爆炸体验增添意义。

So how is ketamine being used?

那么氯胺酮是如何使用的呢？

Ketamine is being used to prevent learning of emotions very soon after trauma.

氯胺酮被用来防止创伤后很快学习情绪。

So ketamine is being stocked in a number of different emergency rooms, where if people are brought in quickly, and these are hard to describe even, but a horrible experience of somebody seeing a loved one next to them killed in a car accident and they were driving that car.

因此，氯胺酮被储存在许多不同的急诊室中，如果人们被迅速带进来，这些甚至都很难描述，但有人看到旁边的亲人在车祸中丧生，而他们正在驾驶那辆车，这是一种可怕的经历。

This isn't for everybody certainly, and you need to talk to your physician, but ketamine is being used so they might infuse somebody with ketamine so that their emotion, it can still occur, but that the plasticity, the change in the wiring of their brain won't allow that intense emotion to be attached to the experience.

这当然不适合每个人，你需要和你的医生谈谈，但是氯胺酮正在被使用，所以他们可能会给某人注射氯胺酮，这样他们的情绪仍然可以发生，但是可塑性，他们大脑线路的变化不会让这种强烈的情绪附加到体验中。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Now immediately you can imagine the sort of ethical implications of this, right?

现在你立刻就能想象到这会带来什么样的伦理影响，对吧？

Because certain emotions need to be coupled to experiences.

因为某些情绪需要与经历结合起来。

I'm not saying that people should be using ketamine or shouldn't be using ketamine, certainly not recreationally.

我并不是说人们应该使用氯胺酮或不应该使用氯胺酮，当然不是为了娱乐。

It's quite dangerous.

这是相当危险的。

It can be lethal, and like PCP, it can cause pretty dramatic changes in perception and behavior.

它可能是致命的，并且像 PCP 一样，它可能会导致认知和行为发生相当大的变化。

But in the clinical setting, the basis of ketamine-assisted therapies is really to remove emotion.

但在临床环境中，氯胺酮辅助治疗的基础实际上是消除情绪。

And I think the way I've been hearing about it talked about in the general public, is a lot of people think it's a little bit more like the, kind of, psilocybin trials, or the MDMA trials, where it's about becoming more emotional or getting in touch with a certain experience.

我认为我在公众中听到的谈论方式是，很多人认为这有点像裸盖菇素试验或摇头丸试验，它是关于变得更加情绪化或接触某种经历。

Ketamine is about becoming dissociative or removed from the emotional component of experience.

氯胺酮是一种解离或脱离体验的情感成分。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So now we have ketamine, which chemically blocks plasticity and prevents the connection between an emotion and an experience.

所以现在我们有了氯胺酮，它通过化学方式阻止可塑性并阻止情感和体验之间的联系。

That's a pharmacologic intervention.

这是一种药物干预。

We have EMDR, which is this eye-movement thing that is designed to suppress the amygdala and is designed to remove emotionality while somebody recounts an experience.

我们有 EMDR，这是一种眼球运动的东西，旨在抑制杏仁核，并在某人讲述经历时消除情绪。

And we have REM sleep, where the chemical epinephrine that allows for signaling of intense emotion and the experience of intense emotion in the brain and body is not allowed.

我们有快速眼动睡眠，在这种睡眠中，允许发出强烈情绪信号的化学肾上腺素以及大脑和身体中强烈情绪体验的化学物质肾上腺素是不允许的。

And so we're starting to see an organizational logic, which is that a certain component of our sleeping life is acting like therapy, and that's really what REM sleep is about.

因此，我们开始看到一种组织逻辑，即我们睡眠生活的某些组成部分起到了治疗的作用，而这正是快速眼动睡眠的真正含义。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So we should really think about REM sleep and slow-wave sleep as both critical.

因此，我们确实应该将快速眼动睡眠和慢波睡眠视为至关重要。

Slow-wave sleep for motor learning and detailed learning, REM sleep for attaching of emotions to particular experiences, and then for making sure that the emotions are not attached to the wrong experiences and for unlearning emotional responses if they're too intense or severe.

慢波睡眠用于运动学习和细节学习，快速眼动睡眠用于将情绪与特定经历联系起来，然后确保情绪不会与错误的经历联系起来，并在情绪反应过于强烈或严重时忘记情绪反应。

And this all speaks to the great importance of mastering one's sleep, something that we talked about in episode two of the podcast, and making sure that if life has disruptive events, either due to travel or stress or changes in school or food schedule, something that we talked about in episodes three and four, that one can still grab ahold and manage one's sleep life.

这一切都说明了掌握睡眠的重要性，我们在播客的第二集中谈到了这一点，并确保如果生活发生破坏性事件，无论是由于旅行、压力、学校或饮食安排的变化（我们在第三集和第四集中谈到的），人们仍然可以抓住并管理自己的睡眠生活。

Because fundamentally the unlearning of emotions that are troubling to us is what allows us to move forward in life.

因为从根本上来说，忘却困扰我们的情绪才能让我们在生活中前进。

And indeed, the REM-deprivation studies show that people become hyperemotional, they start to catastrophize, and it's no surprise therefore that sleep disturbances correlate with so many emotional and psychological disturbances.

事实上，快速眼动睡眠剥夺研究表明，人们变得情绪化，他们开始陷入灾难，因此睡眠障碍与如此多的情绪和心理障碍相关也就不足为奇了。

By now, it should just be obvious why that would be the case.

到现在为止，为什么会出现这种情况应该很明显了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In fact, the other day I was in a discussion with a colleague of mine who's down in Australia, Dr. Sarah McKay.

事实上，有一天我正在与一位在澳大利亚的同事莎拉·麦凯博士进行讨论。

I've known her for two decades now, from the time she was at Oxford, and Sarah studies, among other things, menopause in the brain.

从她在牛津大学开始，我已经认识她二十年了，莎拉的研究领域包括大脑中的更年期。

And she was saying that a lot of the emotional effects of menopause actually are not directly related to the hormones.

她说更年期的许多情绪影响实际上与荷尔蒙没有直接关系。

There have been some really nice studies showing that the disruptions in temperature regulation in menopause mapped changes in sleep regulation that then impact emotionality and an inability to correctly adjust the circuits related to emotionality.

有一些非常好的研究表明，更年期温度调节的破坏映射了睡眠调节的变化，从而影响情绪以及无法正确调整与情绪相关的回路。

And I encourage you to look at her work.

我鼓励你看看她的作品。

We'll probably have her as a guest on the podcast at some point in the future, because she's so knowledgeable about those sorts of issues as well as issues related to testosterone and in people with all sorts of different chromosomal backgrounds.

我们可能会在未来的某个时候邀请她作为播客的嘉宾，因为她对此类问题以及与睾酮相关的问题以及具有各种不同染色体背景的人的问题非常了解。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So sleep deprivation isn't just deprivation of energy, it's not just deprivation of immune function.

因此，睡眠不足不仅仅是能量的剥夺，也不仅仅是免疫功能的丧失。

It is deprivation of self-induced therapy every time we go to sleep.

每次我们入睡时，这都是一种自我诱导治疗的剥夺。

Okay?

好的？

So these things like EMDR and ketamine therapies are in-clinic therapies, but REM sleep is the one that you are giving yourself every night when you go to sleep.

因此，EMDR 和氯胺酮疗法等疗法属于临床疗法，但快速眼动睡眠 (REM sleep) 是您每晚入睡时为自己提供的疗法。

Which raises, I think the other important question, which is how to get and how to know if you're getting the appropriate amount of REM sleep and slow-wave sleep.

我认为这就提出了另一个重要的问题，即如何获得以及如何知道您是否获得了适量的快速眼动睡眠和慢波睡眠。

So, that's what we'll talk about next.

所以，这就是我们接下来要讨论的内容。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So how should one go about getting the appropriate amount of slow-wave sleep and REM sleep and knowing that you're getting the right amount?

那么，一个人应该如何获得适量的慢波睡眠和快速眼动睡眠，并知道自己获得了适量的睡眠呢？

Well, short of hooking yourself up to an EEG, it's going to be tough to get exact measurements of brain states from night to night.

好吧，如果不连接脑电图，就很难准确测量每晚的大脑状态。

Some people nowadays are using things like the Oura Ring or a Whoop Band or some other device to measure the quality in depth and duration of their sleep.

如今，有些人使用大环环或呼呼带或其他一些设备来测量睡眠深度和持续时间的质量。

And for many people those devices can be quite useful.

对于许多人来说，这些设备非常有用。

Some people are only gauging their sleep by way of whether or not they feel rested, whether or not they feel like they're learning and they're getting better or not.

有些人只是通过是否感到休息、是否感觉自己在学习以及是否在好转来衡量自己的睡眠。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There are some things that one can really do and the first one might surprise you in light of everything I've said and probably everything you've heard about sleep.

有些事情是人们真正可以做的，考虑到我所说的一切以及您可能听说过的有关睡眠的一切，第一件事可能会让您感到惊讶。

There was a study done by a Harvard undergraduate, Emily Hogeland, who was in Robert Stickgold's lab at the time.

哈佛本科生艾米丽·霍格兰德（Emily Hogeland）当时在罗伯特·斯蒂克戈尔德的实验室进行了一项研究。

And that study explored how variations in total sleep time related to learning as compared to total sleep time itself.

该研究探讨了与总睡眠时间本身相比，总睡眠时间的变化如何与学习相关。

And to summarize the study, what they found was that it was more important to have a regular amount of sleep each night, as opposed to the total duration.

总结这项研究，他们发现每晚有规律的睡眠时间比总睡眠时间更重要。

In other words, and what they showed was that improvements in learning or deficits in learning were more related to whether or not you got six hours, six hours, five hours, six hours.

换句话说，他们表明学习的进步或学习的缺陷与你是否有六个小时，六个小时，五个小时，六个小时更相关。

That was better than if somebody got, for instance, six hours, 10 hours, seven hours, four or five hours.

这比某人得到六个小时、十个小时、七个小时、四五个小时要好。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So you might say, "Well, that's crazy because I thought we're just all supposed to get more sleep and there's more REM towards morning." Turns out that for sake of learning new information, and performance on exams in particular — that's what was measured — limiting the variation in the amount of your sleep is at least as important and perhaps more important than just getting more sleep overall.

所以你可能会说，“好吧，这太疯狂了，因为我认为我们都应该得到更多的睡眠，并且在早上有更多的快速眼动睡眠。”事实证明，为了学习新信息，特别是考试表现（这就是测量的结果），限制睡眠时间的变化至少与获得更多睡眠同样重要，甚至可能更重要。

And I think this will bring people great relief, many people, great relief, who are struggling to "get enough sleep." Remember a few episodes ago I talked about the difference between fatigue and insomnia.

我认为这会给人们带来很大的缓解，很多人都在努力“获得足够的睡眠”。记得前几集我讲过疲劳和失眠之间的区别。

Fatigue tends to be when we are tired, insomnia tends to lead to a sleepiness during the day when we're falling asleep.

疲劳往往是当我们感到疲倦时，失眠往往会导致我们白天入睡时感到困倦。

And you don't want that.

而你不希望这样。

You don't want either of those things, really.

你真的不想要这些东西。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But I found it striking that the data from this study really point to the fact that consistently getting about the same amount of sleep is better than just getting more sleep.

但我发现令人惊讶的是，这项研究的数据确实表明了这样一个事实：持续获得相同的睡眠时间比仅仅获得更多的睡眠更好。

And I think nowadays so many people are just aiming for more sleep and they're rather troubled about the fact that they're only getting five hours or they're only getting six hours, in some cases.

我认为现在很多人只是想获得更多的睡眠，但他们对自己只能获得五个小时或在某些情况下只有六个小时这一事实感到相当困扰。

It may be the case that they are sleep-deprived and they need more sleep, but some people just have a lower sleep need.

可能他们睡眠不足，需要更多睡眠，但有些人只是睡眠需求较低。

And I find great relief personally in the fact that consistently getting, for me, about six hours or six and a half hours is going to be more beneficial than constantly striving for eight or nine and finding that some nights I'm getting five and sometimes I'm getting nine and varying around the mean.

我个人感到非常欣慰的是，对我来说，坚持六个小时或六个半小时比不断争取八个或九个小时更有益，因为我发现有些晚上我睡了五个小时，有时我睡了九个小时，而且在平均值上有所不同。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

As I recall, and I think I'm going to get this precisely right, but if not, I know that I'm at least close, for every hour variation in sleep, regardless of whether or not it was more sleep than one typically got, there was a 17% reduction in performance on this particular exam type.

据我回忆，我想我会完全正确地做到这一点，但如果不是，我知道我至少很接近，对于睡眠的每一个小时的变化，无论睡眠是否比通常的睡眠时间多，在这种特定的考试类型中，成绩都会下降 17%。

And so this is powerful.

所以这很强大。

This means that we should strive for a regular amount of sleep.

这意味着我们应该努力保持有规律的睡眠。

And for some of us that means falling asleep and waking up and going back to sleep.

对于我们中的一些人来说，这意味着入睡、醒来、再入睡。

For some people it means falling asleep and waking up and not getting back to sleep.

对于某些人来说，这意味着入睡然后醒来，然后就再也睡不着了。

Now ideally, you're getting the full complement of slow-wave sleep early at night and sleep toward morning, which is REM sleep, which brings us to how to get more REM sleep.

现在，理想情况下，您可以在晚上早些时候获得完整的慢波睡眠，并在早上睡觉，这就是快速眼动睡眠，这让我们了解如何获得更多的快速眼动睡眠。

Well, there are couple different ways, but here's how to not get more REM sleep.

嗯，有几种不同的方法，但这里是如何不获得更多快速眼动睡眠的方法。

All right?

好的？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

First of all, drink a lot of fluid right before going to sleep.

首先，在睡觉前喝大量液体。

One of the reasons why we wake up in the middle of the night to use the bathroom is because when our bladder is full, there is a neural connection, literally a set of neurons and a nerve circuit that goes to the brain stem that wakes us up.

我们半夜醒来上厕所的原因之一是，当我们的膀胱充满时，就会有一个神经连接，实际上是一组神经元和一个神经回路，连接到脑干，从而唤醒我们。

Actually, some people that I know and won't be mentioned, actually use this to try and adjust for their jet lag when they're trying to stay awake.

事实上，我认识的一些人（我不会提及）实际上在试图保持清醒时用它来尝试调整时差反应。

Having to use the bathroom, having to urinate, is one of the most anxiety-evoking experiences anyone can have.

必须上厕所、必须小便，是任何人都会经历的最令人焦虑的经历之一。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

If you really have to go to the bathroom, it's very hard to fall asleep or stay asleep.

如果你真的必须去洗手间，就很难入睡或保持睡眠状态。

And bedwetting, which happens in kids very early on, is a failure of those circuits to mature until, I think we all assume that babies are going to pee in their sleep, but adults aren't supposed to do that and the circuits take some time to develop, and in some kids they develop a little bit later than others.

尿床是孩子们很早就发生的事情，是这些电路未能成熟的结果，我想我们都认为婴儿会在睡眠中撒尿，但成年人不应该这样做，而且这些电路需要一些时间才能发育，而且有些孩子的发育比其他孩子晚一点。

So having a full bladder is one way to disrupt your sleep.

因此，膀胱充盈是扰乱睡眠的一种方式。

You don't want to go to bed dehydrated, but that's one way.

你不想在脱水的情况下上床睡觉，但这是一种方法。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

On the other hand, there is evidence that if you want to remember your dreams more or remember more of your dreams, there is a tool that you can use.

另一方面，有证据表明，如果您想更多地记住您的梦想或记住更多您的梦想，那么您可以使用一个工具。

I don't necessarily recommend it, which is to drink a bunch of water before you go to sleep.

我不一定推荐它，那就是在睡觉前喝一大堆水。

And then what happens is you tend to break in and out of REM sleep, it tends to be fractured.

然后发生的事情是你倾向于闯入和退出快速眼动睡眠，它往往会破裂。

And with a sleep journal, they've done these laboratory studies, believe it or not, people will recall more of their dreams because they're in this kind of semiconscious state because they're constantly waking up throughout the night.

通过睡眠日记，他们完成了这些实验室研究，不管你信不信，人们会回忆起更多的梦，因为他们处于这种半意识状态，因为他们整夜不断醒来。

I suggest not having a full bladder before you go to sleep.

我建议你睡觉前不要让膀胱充满。

That one's kind of an obvious one, but nonetheless.

这是一个显而易见的问题，但尽管如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The other one is, if you recall that during REM sleep, we have a shift in neurotransmitters such that we have less serotonin, right?

另一个是，如果你还记得在快速眼动睡眠期间，我们的神经递质发生了变化，导致我们的血清素减少，对吗？

Just want to make sure I got that right.

只是想确保我做对了。

Excuse me, less serotonin.

对不起，血清素少了。

There are a lot of supplements out there geared toward improving sleep.

有很多旨在改善睡眠的补充剂。

I've taken some of them and I've taken many of them, if not all of them at this point so I could report back to you.

我已经拿走了其中的一些，并且我已经拿走了其中的许多，如果不是全部，那么我现在可以向您报告。

And I think I mentioned on a previous episode that when I take tryptophan or anything that contains 5-HTP, which is serotonin or a precursor to serotonin — serotonin is made from tryptophan — I tend to fall very deeply asleep and then wake up a few hours later.

我想我在前一集中提到过，当我服用色氨酸或任何含有 5-HTP（血清素或血清素的前体）的东西时（血清素是由色氨酸制成的），我往往会睡得很沉，然后在几个小时后醒来。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And that makes sense now, based on the fact that you just don't want a lot of REM sleep early on.

现在这是有道理的，因为你只是不希望早期有大量的快速眼动睡眠。

What was probably happening is I was getting a lot of REM sleep early on because low levels of serotonin are typically associated with slow-wave sleep, and that comes early in the night.

可能发生的情况是，我很早就得到了大量的快速眼动睡眠，因为低水平的血清素通常与慢波睡眠有关，而且这种睡眠发生在晚上早些时候。

So for some people those supplements might work, but beware, serotonin supplements could disrupt the timing of REM sleep and slow-wave sleep and in my case, led to waking up very shortly after going to sleep and not being able to get back to sleep.

因此，对于某些人来说，这些补充剂可能有效，但要注意，血清素补充剂可能会扰乱快速眼动睡眠和慢波睡眠的时间，就我而言，导致入睡后很快醒来，并且无法重新入睡。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Now if you want to increase your slow-wave sleep, that's interesting.

现在，如果您想增加慢波睡眠，这很有趣。

There are ways to do that.

有一些方法可以做到这一点。

One of the most powerful ways to increase the percentage of slow-wave sleep, apparently without any disruption to the other components of sleep and learning, is to engage in resistance exercise.

增加慢波睡眠百分比的最有效方法之一是进行抗阻运动，这显然不会干扰睡眠和学习的其他组成部分。

It's pretty clear that resistance exercise triggers a number of metabolic and endocrine pathways that lend themselves to release of growth hormone, which happens early in the night.

很明显，抗阻运动会触发许多代谢和内分泌途径，从而释放生长激素，这种情况会在深夜发生。

And resistance exercise therefore can induce a greater percentage of slow-wave sleep.

因此，抗阻运动可以诱导更大比例的慢波睡眠。

It doesn't have to be done very close to going to bedtime.

不必在非常接近睡觉时间时进行。

In fact, for some people the exercise could be disruptive for reasons I've talked about in previous episodes.

事实上，对于某些人来说，由于我在前几集中谈到的原因，这种练习可能会造成破坏。

But resistance exercise, unlike aerobic exercise, does seem to increase the amount of slow-wave sleep, which as we know, is involved in motor learning and the acquisition of fine detailed information, not general rules or the emotional components of experiences.

但与有氧运动不同，抗阻运动似乎确实增加了慢波睡眠的时间，众所周知，慢波睡眠涉及运动学习和精细信息的获取，而不是一般规则或经验的情感成分。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

For those of you that are interested in lucid dreaming and would like to increase the amount of lucid dreaming that you're experiencing, I haven't been able to track down that device with the red light that I described at the beginning, but there are a number of just simple, zero-technology tools that one could use in principle.

对于那些对清醒梦感兴趣并希望增加正在经历的清醒梦数量的人来说，我还无法找到我在开头描述的带有红灯的设备，但是有许多简单的、零技术的工具原则上可以使用。

One is to set a cue.

一是设置提示。

The way this works is you come up with a simple statement about something that you'd like to see or experience later in dreams.

它的工作原理是，你对你想在以后的梦中看到或经历的事物提出一个简单的陈述。

You can, for instance, write down something like, "I want to remember the red apple." I know it sounds silly and trivial.

例如，您可以写下类似“我想记住红苹果”之类的内容。我知道这听起来很愚蠢而且微不足道。

And you look at that.

你看看那个。

You would probably want to write it down on a piece of paper.

您可能想把它写在一张纸上。

You might even want to draw a red apple.

您甚至可能想画一个红苹果。

And then before you go to sleep, you would look at it and then you would just go to sleep.

然后在你睡觉之前，你会看看它，然后你就去睡觉了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There are some reports that doing that for several days in a row can lead to a situation in which you are suddenly in your dream and you remember the red apple, and that gives you a sort of tether to reality between the dream state and reality that allows you to navigate and shape and kind of adjust your dreams.

有一些报告称，连续几天这样做可能会导致你突然进入梦境并记起红苹果，这会给你一种在梦境和现实之间与现实之间的束缚，让你能够导航、塑造和调整你的梦。

Lucid dreaming does not have to be, or include the ability to alter features of the dream, to be able to control things in the dream.

清醒梦不一定是，或者包括改变梦的特征的能力，才能控制梦中的事物。

Sometimes it's just the awareness that you are dreaming.

有时只是意识到自己在做梦。

But nonetheless, some people enjoy lucid dreaming.

但尽管如此，有些人还是喜欢做清醒梦。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And then for people that have a lot of lucid dreams that feel kind of overwhelmed by those, that's going to involve trying to embrace protocols that can set the right duration of sleep.

对于那些做过很多清醒梦却感到不知所措的人来说，这将涉及尝试接受可以设定正确睡眠时间的协议。

There's a little bit of literature, not a lot, that shows that keeping the total amount of sleep per night to, say, six hours, such that you begin sleep and end at the beginning and end of one of these ultradian cycles.

有一些文献（不是很多）表明，将每晚的总睡眠时间保持在六个小时，这样您就可以在这些超日周期之一的开始和结束时开始睡眠并结束睡眠。

It can be better than waking up in the middle of one of these ultradian cycles.

这可能比在这些超电周期之一中醒来要好。

So try and find the right amount of sleep that you need and that's right for you, and then try and get that consistently night to night.

因此，尝试找到您需要且适合您的正确睡眠量，然后尝试每晚都保持这样的睡眠时间。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

If you're a lucid dreamer and you don't like it, then you may want to start to make sure that you're waking up at the end of one of these ultradian cycles.

如果你是一个清醒梦者并且你不喜欢它，那么你可能需要开始确保你在这些超电周期之一的结束时醒来。

So in this case, it would be better to wake up after six hours than after seven.

所以在这种情况下，六小时后起床比七小时后起床要好。

And if you did sleep longer than six hours, maybe you'd want to get to seven and a half hours, because that's going to reflect the end of one of these 90-minute cycles as opposed to waking up in the middle.

如果你的睡眠时间确实超过六个小时，也许你会想要达到七个半小时，因为这将反映出这 90 分钟周期之一的结束，而不是在中间醒来。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Alcohol.

酒精。

Alcohol and marijuana are well known to induce states that are pseudo-sleeplike, especially when people fall asleep after having consumed alcohol or THC, one of the active components in marijuana.

众所周知，酒精和大麻会诱发类似睡眠的状态，尤其是当人们在饮用酒精或大麻中的活性成分之一四氢大麻酚（THC）后入睡时。

Alcohol, THC, and most things like them, meaning things that increase serotonin or GABA, are going to disrupt the pattern of sleep.

酒精、四氢大麻酚和大多数类似的物质，即增加血清素或伽马氨基丁酸的物质，都会扰乱睡眠模式。

They're going to disrupt the depth, they're going to disrupt the overall sequencing of more slow-wave sleep early in the night and more REM sleep later in the night.

它们会扰乱深度，扰乱夜间早期更多慢波睡眠和晚间更多快速眼动睡眠的整体顺序。

That's just the reality.

这就是现实。

There are some things that, at least in a few studies that I could find, seem to suggest that you could increase the amount of slow-wave sleep using things like arginine, the amino acid arginine.

至少在我发现的一些研究中，有些事情似乎表明您可以使用精氨酸（精氨酸）等物质来增加慢波睡眠时间。

Although, you really want to check — arginine can have effects on heart, etcetera.

不过，你真的想检查一下——精氨酸会对心脏等产生影响。

It has other effects.

它还有其他作用。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But alcohol, THC, not going to be great for sleep and depth of sleep.

但酒精、四氢大麻酚（THC）对睡眠和睡眠深度都没有好处。

You might feel like you can fall asleep faster, but the sleep that you're accessing really isn't the kind of deep restorative sleep that you should be getting.

您可能觉得自己可以更快入睡，但您所获得的睡眠实际上并不是您应该获得的深度恢复性睡眠。

Now, of course, if that's what you need in order to sleep and that's within your protocol, as I've said here before, I'm not suggesting people take anything.

当然，如果这是您入睡所需要的，并且符合您的方案，正如我之前所说，我并不建议人们服用任何药物。

I'm not a medical doctor, I'm not a cop, so I'm not trying to regulate anyone's behavior.

我不是医生，也不是警察，所以我不会试图规范任何人的行为。

I'm just telling you what the literature says.

我只是告诉你文献所说的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Some of you may want to explore your dreams and meaning of dreams, etcetera.

你们中的一些人可能想探索你的梦想和梦想的意义等等。

There's not a lot of hard data about how to do this, but a lot of people report keeping a sleep journal or a dream journal can be very useful.

关于如何做到这一点的硬数据并不多，但很多人报告说，写睡眠日记或梦日记可能非常有用。

So they mark when they think they fell asleep the night before, when they woke up, and if they wake up in the middle of the night or early in the morning, they'll just write down what they can recall of their dreams.

因此，他们会记录前一天晚上他们认为自己睡着的时间、醒来的时间，如果他们在半夜或清晨醒来，他们只会写下他们能回忆起的梦境。

And even if they recall nothing, many people have the experience of midmorning or later afternoon that it suddenly comes to them that they had a dream about something and writing that down.

即使他们什么都不记得，很多人都有这样的经历：在上午或下午晚些时候，他们突然想到自己做了一个梦，并将其写下来。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I kept a dream journal for a while.

我有一段时间一直在写梦想日记。

It didn't really afford me much.

它并没有真正给我带来太多。

I didn't really learn anything except that my dreams were very bizarre.

除了我的梦很奇怪之外，我并没有真正学到任何东西。

But there are some things that happen in dreams that are associated with REM sleep as compared to slow-wave sleep, which can tell you whether or not your dream likely happened in REM sleep or slow-wave sleep.

但与慢波睡眠相比，梦中发生的一些事情与快速眼动睡眠相关，这可以告诉你你的梦是否可能发生在快速眼动睡眠或慢波睡眠中。

And the distinguishing feature, it turns out, is something called "theory of mind." Theory of mind is actually an idea that was developed for the study and assessment of autism.

事实证明，其显着特征是所谓的“心智理论”。心理理论实际上是为研究和评估自闭症而开发的一个想法。

And it was initially that phrase, theory of mind, was brought about by Simon Baron-Cohen, who is Sasha Baron-Cohen, the comedian's, brother.

最初，“心智理论”这个词是由西蒙·拜伦·科恩（Simon Baron-Cohen）提出的，他是喜剧演员萨莎·拜伦·科恩（Sasha Baron-Cohen）的兄弟。

Simon Baron-Cohen is a psychologist, and to some extent a neuroscientist at Oxford.

西蒙·拜伦·科恩（Simon Baron-Cohen）是一位心理学家，在某种程度上也是牛津大学的神经科学家。

And theory-of-mind tests are done on children and the theory-of-mind test is somewhat like the following:

心理理论测试是对儿童进行的，心理理论测试有点像以下：

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

A child is brought into a laboratory and watches a video of a child playing with some sort of toy, and then at the end of playing with that toy, they put the toy in a drawer and they go away.

一个孩子被带进实验室，观看一个孩子玩某种玩具的视频，然后在玩完那个玩具后，他们把玩具放进抽屉里然后离开。

And then another child comes in and is looking around, and then the experimenter asks the child who's in the experiment, the real child, and says, what does the child think?

然后另一个孩子进来并环顾四周，然后实验者问实验中的孩子，真正的孩子是谁，然后说，孩子怎么想？

What are they feeling?

他们有什么感受？

And most children of a particular age, five or six or older will say, "Oh, he or she is confused.

大多数特定年龄的孩子，五六岁或更大的孩子会说：“哦，他或她很困惑。

They don't know where the toy is." Or they'll say something that implies what we call theory of mind, that they can put their ideas and their mind into what the other child is likely to be feeling or experiencing.

他们不知道玩具在哪里。”或者他们会说一些暗示我们所谓的心理理论的东西，他们可以将自己的想法和想法融入到另一个孩子可能感受到或经历的事情中。

That's theory of mind.

这就是心智理论。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And it turns out that this is used as one of the assessments for autism because some children, not all, but some children that have autism or that go on to develop autism don't have this theory of mind.

事实证明，这被用作自闭症的评估之一，因为有些孩子，不是全部，而是一些患有自闭症或继续发展自闭症的孩子没有这种心理理论。

They tend to fixate on the fact that the first child put the toy in the drawer.

他们倾向于关注第一个孩子把玩具放在抽屉里的事实。

They'll say, "It's in the drawer," as opposed to answering the question, which is how does the second child feel about it or what are they experiencing?

他们会说，“它在抽屉里”，而不是回答第二个孩子对此有何感受或他们正在经历什么的问题？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So theory of mind is something that emerges early in life as a part of the maturation of the circuits in the brain associated with emotional learning and social interactions.

因此，心理理论是在生命早期出现的，是大脑中与情绪学习和社交互动相关的回路成熟的一部分。

And we experience this in certain dreams.

我们在某些梦中经历过这一点。

So if you had a dream that you're puzzled about or that you're fixated on and you're thinking about, you might ask, in that dream, was I assessing somebody else's emotion and feeling or was I very much in my own first-person experience?

因此，如果你做了一个让你感到困惑或你着迷并正在思考的梦，你可能会问，在那个梦中，我是在评估别人的情绪和感受，还是我很大程度上处于自己的第一人称体验中？

And the tendency is that theory of mind tends to show up most in these REM-associated dreams.

趋势是，心理理论往往在这些与快速眼动睡眠相关的梦中出现得最多。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Now, this isn't a hard-and-fast rule, but chances are, if you were in a dream and you were thinking about other people who wanted to do something to you, you were thinking about their desire to chase you or help you or something that was related to someone else's emotional experience, it was probably a REM dream.

现在，这不是一个硬性规定，但很可能，如果你在梦中，你正在考虑其他人想要对你做某事，你正在考虑他们想要追逐你或帮助你的愿望，或者与其他人的情感体验相关的事情，那么这可能是一个快速眼动梦。

That dream occurred in rapid-eye-movement sleep as opposed to slow-wave sleep.

这个梦发生在快速眼动睡眠中，而不是慢波睡眠中。

And that makes sense when you think about the role of REM in emotional unlearning of associations with particular life events, that REM is rich with all sorts of exploration of the emotional load of being chased or the emotional load of having to take an exam the next day or being late for something.

当你想到快速眼动睡眠在情感遗忘与特定生活事件的关联中所扮演的角色时，这是有道理的，快速眼动睡眠充满了对被追逐的情感负荷或第二天必须参加考试或迟到的情感负荷的各种探索。

But again, if you're fixated or you can recall thinking a lot about or feeling a lot about what somebody else's motivations were, then chances are it was in REM, and if not, chances are it was in slow-wave sleep.

但同样，如果你很专注，或者你记得经常思考或感受很多别人的动机是什么，那么很可能是在快速眼动睡眠中，如果不是，很可能是在慢波睡眠中。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Today we've been in a deep dive of sleep and dreaming, learning and unlearning, and I just want to recap a few of the highlights and important points.

今天我们深入探讨了睡眠和做梦、学习和忘却，我只想回顾一下其中的一些亮点和要点。

A lot more slow-wave sleep and less REM early in the night, more REM and less slow-wave sleep later in the night.

早晚有更多的慢波睡眠和更少的快速眼动睡眠，而在晚间则有更多的快速眼动睡眠和更少的慢波睡眠。

REM sleep is associated with intense experiences without this chemical epinephrine that allows us the anxiety or fear and almost certainly has an important role in uncoupling of emotion from experiences, kind of self-induced therapy that we go into each night.

快速眼动睡眠与没有这种化学肾上腺素的强烈体验相关，这种化学肾上腺素会让我们感到焦虑或恐惧，而且几乎可以肯定，它在将情绪与经历脱钩方面发挥着重要作用，这是我们每天晚上进行的一种自我诱导疗法。

That bears striking resemblance to things like EMDR and ketamine therapies and so forth.

这与 EMDR 和氯胺酮疗法等惊人相似。

Slow-wave sleep is critical, however, it's critical mostly for motor learning and the learning of specific details.

慢波睡眠很重要，但是，它主要对于运动学习和特定细节的学习至关重要。

So REM is kind of emotions and general themes and meaning and slow-wave sleep, motor learning and details.

所以快速眼动睡眠是一种情绪、一般主题和意义以及慢波睡眠、运动学习和细节。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I personally find it fascinating that consistency of sleep, meaning getting six hours every night is better than getting 10 one night, eight the next, five the next, four the next.

我个人觉得睡眠的一致性很有趣，这意味着每晚睡 6 小时比一晚睡 10 小时、下一晚睡 8 小时、再睡 5 小时、再睡 4 小时要好。

I find that fascinating and I think I also like it because it's something I can control better than just trying to sleep more, which I think I'm not alone in agreeing that that's just hard for a lot of people to do.

我觉得这很有趣，我想我也喜欢它，因为这是我可以更好地控制的事情，而不仅仅是试图多睡一点，我想我并不是唯一一个同意这对很多人来说很难做到的人。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This episode also brings us to the conclusion of a five-episode streak where we've been focusing on sleep and transitions in and out of sleep, non-sleep deep rest.

这一集也给我们带来了连续五集的结论，其中我们一直专注于睡眠以及睡眠和睡眠的过渡，以及非睡眠深度休息。

We've talked about a lot of tools, morning light, evening light, avoiding light, blue blockers, supplements, tools for measuring sleep duration and quality.

我们讨论了很多工具，晨光、晚间光、避光、蓝光阻滞剂、补充剂、测量睡眠持续时间和质量的工具。

We've been covering a lot of themes.

我们已经涵盖了很多主题。

I like to think that by now you're armed with a number of tools and information, things like knowing when your temperature minimum is, knowing when you might want to view light or not, when you might want to eat or take hot showers or, God forbid, a cold shower — something that most people, including me, more or less loath, but can have certain benefits — and that will allow you to shape your sleep life and get this consistent or more or less consistent amount of sleep on a regular basis.

我喜欢认为，现在你已经掌握了许多工具和信息，比如知道你的最低体温何时，知道你什么时候可能想看光，什么时候你可能想吃东西或洗热水澡，或者，上帝保佑，洗冷水澡——大多数人，包括我，或多或少都不愿意这样做，但可以有一定的好处——这将使你能够塑造你的睡眠生活，并定期获得稳定或或多或少稳定的睡眠量。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Nobody's perfect.

没有人是完美的。

In fact, I have this little joke that I sometimes tell.

事实上，我有时会讲一个小笑话。

It's not funny, like most of the jokes I tell I'm told are not funny.

这不好笑，就像我听过的大多数笑话都不好笑一样。

But there's so much excitement now about intermittent fasting.

但现在间歇性禁食令人兴奋不已。

Sometimes I think that someone should start something on intermittent sleep deprivation, although we're already doing that.

有时我认为有人应该开始针对间歇性睡眠剥夺采取一些措施，尽管我们已经在这样做了。

We are all experiencing lack of sleep from time to time, and I don't think we should catastrophize that too much.

我们都会时不时地经历睡眠不足的情况，我认为我们不应该对此过度灾难化。

I think that what we want to do, rather than accumulate a sleep anxiety, is to, if we get a bad night's sleep, we want to adjust, we want to get back on track and just get the consistent amount of sleep, use those non-sleep deep rest protocols to help us relax when we're feeling anxious, we're having trouble waking up in the middle of the night.

我认为我们想要做的，不是积累睡眠焦虑，而是，如果我们晚上睡得不好，我们想要调整，我们想要回到正轨并获得稳定的睡眠量，使用那些非睡眠深度休息方案来帮助我们在感到焦虑、半夜醒来有困难时放松。

There are a lot of tools out there and most of them are zero cost, and so I hope you'll find those beneficial.

有很多工具，其中大多数都是零成本，所以我希望您会发现这些工具很有用。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

If you've been hearing Costello snoring throughout this episode, I apologize on his behalf.

如果你在这一集中听到科斯特洛打鼾，我代表他道歉。

As I said in the welcome video to this podcast, he's an integral part of the podcast.

正如我在该播客的欢迎视频中所说，他是播客不可或缺的一部分。

A few people have said, "Hey, that noise in the background is really disruptive." Hey, what can I say?

有一些人说：“嘿，背景噪音真的很干扰。”嘿，我能说什么？

Costello's a 10-year old bulldog mastiff.

Costello 是一只 10 岁的斗牛獒犬。

The lifespan on those animals is about 10 years, so I'm not trying to make you feel guilty, but after he's gone, there won't be any snoring, although I'll probably get a different dog.

这些动物的寿命大约是10年，所以我并不是想让你感到内疚，但他走了之后，就不会有任何打鼾了，尽管我可能会再养一只狗。

So sort of a, what would the kids say?

那么，孩子们会说什么？

Sorry, not sorry.

抱歉，不抱歉。

Sorry, not sorry about the snoring and I'm sorry if it's disruptive genuinely, but he's here for the haul.

抱歉，我对打鼾的事并不感到抱歉，如果真的造成了干扰，我也很抱歉，但他是来干这事的。

So, that's what that's about.

所以，就是这样。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

As we close out this segment on sleep, we are moving into a new theme and topic for the next four to five episodes.

当我们结束这个关于睡眠的部分时，我们将进入接下来四到五集的新主题和主题。

We are going to discuss the science and the tools related to neuroplasticity.

我们将讨论与神经可塑性相关的科学和工具。

Neuroplasticity is a remarkable feature of the nervous system.

神经可塑性是神经系统的一个显着特征。

In fact, it's the defining feature of the nervous system, which is its ability to change itself in response to experience, that is unlike every other tissue and collection of cells and organ in our body.

事实上，这是神经系统的决定性特征，它能够根据经验而改变自身，这与我们体内的所有其他组织以及细胞和器官的集合不同。

It's really what makes us us as a species and it's what makes us us as individuals and it's really where our potential lies.

这确实是我们作为一个物种的原因，也是我们作为个体的原因，也是我们潜力的真正所在。

Everything that we know, everything we can do, and our true potential in terms of what we will ever be able to know, do, say in life is set by the limits of neuroplasticity.

我们所知道的一切，我们能做的一切，以及我们在生活中能够知道、做、说的真正潜力，都是由神经可塑性的极限决定的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So we're going to explore learning in childhood, learning in adulthood.

因此，我们将探讨童年时期的学习，以及成年时期的学习。

We're going to discuss detailed protocols as they relate to sensory plasticity, learning new sensory information versus motor plasticity or sensory motor integration.

我们将讨论与感觉可塑性相关的详细协议，学习新的感觉信息与运动可塑性或感觉运动整合。

We're going to talk about language acquisition.

我们要讨论语言习得。

We're going to be talking about emotional acquisition and breadth as well as, I think a topic a lot of people are going to find fascinating is the relationship between plasticity set during childhood attachment to parent or other caregiver and how that maps onto adult relationships.

我们将讨论情感的获取和广度，我认为很多人都会感兴趣的一个话题是童年时期对父母或其他照顾者的依恋所设定的可塑性之间的关系，以及它如何映射到成人关系上。

Many of you have probably heard about secure attach or insecure attach, the aB and cD babies, as they're called, from the classic studies of Bowlby and others.

你们中的许多人可能从 Bowlby 等人的经典研究中听说过安全依恋或不安全依恋，即所谓的 aB 和 cD 婴儿。

But now there's actual neuroscience that can say which circuits were active during those early life attachments and how those map to adult attachment styles, challenges, and what makes us more likely to select certain partners and styles of attachment as well as how to change those.

但现在真正的神经科学可以说明哪些回路在早期依恋过程中活跃，以及这些回路如何映射到成人依恋风格、挑战，以及是什么让我们更有可能选择某些伴侣和依恋风格以及如何改变它们。

It's really fascinating and I think neuroscience's time has come for neuroplasticity.

这真的很令人着迷，我认为神经科学的神经可塑性时代已经到来。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We're also going to talk, of course, about supplements and chemicals and machines and devices that can assist in speeding up the plasticity process.

当然，我们还将讨论有助于加速可塑性过程的补充剂、化学品以及机器和设备。

Or believe it or not, there are some cases where you might want to delay plasticity in order to get more depth of learning and have that learning last longer, something that is just absolutely spectacular literature.

不管你信不信，在某些情况下，你可能想要延迟可塑性，以获得更深入的学习，并使学习持续更长时间，这绝对是壮观的文学作品。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So I'm very excited to move on to that topic soon.

所以我很高兴很快就能继续讨论这个话题。

I hope that the tools that you've acquired so far and the knowledge that you've acquired so far is helping you with your self-evaluation and experimentation as you see fit and is allowing you to not just sleep better, but feel better while you're awake, and hopefully set the stage for you to learn better as we start to march into the month on neuroplasticity.

我希望你到目前为止所获得的工具和所获得的知识能够帮助你进行自我评估和实验，让你不仅睡得更好，而且在清醒时感觉更好，并希望在我们开始进入神经可塑性月份时为你更好地学习奠定基础。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Many of you have asked how you can help support the Huberman Lab podcast, and we greatly appreciate the question.

你们中的许多人都询问过如何帮助支持 Huberman Lab 播客，我们非常感谢您提出这个问题。

You can help support the podcast by subscribing to the YouTube channel, if you haven't already, and leaving comments and questions in the comment section.

您可以通过订阅 YouTube 频道（如果尚未订阅）来帮助支持播客，并在评论部分留下评论和问题。

If you could subscribe on Apple and/or Spotify, that's helpful.

如果您可以在 Apple 和/或 Spotify 上订阅，那就很有帮助。

And there's a place on Apple Podcasts to leave a rating as well as comments about how you feel about the podcast.

Apple 播客上有一个地方可以留下评分以及关于您对播客的感受的评论。

If you could suggest the podcast to friends and coworkers and anyone else that you think would benefit from the information, that also really helps us get the word out.

如果您可以向朋友、同事以及您认为会从该信息中受益的任何其他人推荐该播客，这也确实有助于我们宣传。

And, of course, check out our sponsors because that's a very direct way to help us continue to get this information out to the general public.

当然，请查看我们的赞助商，因为这是帮助我们继续向公众传播这些信息的非常直接的方式。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Last but not least, a few people wrote to me with some questions/corrections about things that I said in previous podcasts.

最后但并非最不重要的一点是，有些人写信给我，对我在之前的播客中所说的内容提出了一些问题/更正。

So in keeping with my goal of making the information accurate and clear, I just want to correct myself about a few things that I said.

因此，为了实现使信息准确和清晰的目标，我只想纠正自己所说的一些事情。

One of those, and I'm guessing it probably came from an endocrinologist or somebody else that knows a lot about testicles, said, "Huberman, you mentioned that testosterone is made by the Sertoli cells of the testes and it's not.

其中一个，我猜它可能来自一位内分泌学家或其他对睾丸了解很多的人，他说：“休伯曼，你提到睾酮是由睾丸的支持细胞产生的，但事实并非如此。

It's made by the Leydig cells of the testes." And indeed, you are correct.

它是由睾丸的间质细胞产生的。”事实上，你是对的。

And so I want to make sure that I clarify that.

所以我想确保我澄清这一点。

Testosterone is made by the Leydig cells of the testes, not by the Sertoli cells.

睾酮是由睾丸的间质细胞产生的，而不是由支持细胞产生的。

The Sertoli cells make 5 alpha-reductase and aromatase and some other enzymes involved in conversion of testosterone into things like DHG and estrogen.

支持细胞产生 5α-还原酶和芳香酶以及一些其他酶，这些酶参与将睾酮转化为 DHG 和雌激素等物质。

So thank you for that correction.

谢谢您的更正。

I genuinely appreciate it.

我真的很感激。

I misspoke.

我说错了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The other thing I said was at one point I said typical temperature is 96.8 when I actually meant to say 98.6.

我说的另一件事是，有一次我说典型温度是 96.8，但实际上我想说的是 98.6。

So it was a dyslexic slip on my part, and I apologize.

所以这是我的阅读障碍失误，我很抱歉。

I don't know that I'm dyslexic.

我不知道我有阅读障碍。

I haven't been clinically diagnosed with dyslexia, but I swapped them, which sometimes happens when I'm going fast.

我还没有被临床诊断出患有阅读障碍，但我交换了它们，这有时会发生在我速度很快的时候。

So I apologize.

所以我道歉。

I'll use this as a moment to just say temperature varies a lot across the day and night.

我想借此机会说明白天和晚上的温度变化很大。

That was a theme of previous podcasts.

这是之前播客的主题。

So we can't really talk about average temperature anyway, but I do want to be clear that most people think about average temperature as 98.6.

所以无论如何我们都不能真正谈论平均温度，但我确实想澄清的是，大多数人认为平均温度是 98.6。

I misspoke.

我说错了。

My error and I apologize.

我的错误，我深表歉意。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Thank you for joining me in this journey of the nervous system in biology and trying to understand the mechanisms that make us who we are and how we function in sleep and in wakefulness.

感谢您与我一起踏上生物学神经系统的旅程，并尝试了解造就我们的机制以及我们在睡眠和清醒时如何运作。

It's really an incredible landscape to consider and I hope that you're getting a lot out of the information.

这确实是一个令人难以置信的景观，我希望您能从这些信息中获得很多收获。

As always, thank you for your interest in science.

一如既往，感谢您对科学的兴趣。