What Pets Actually Want & Need | Dr. Karolina Westlund
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Dr. Carolina Westlund.
今天我的客人是卡罗莱纳·韦斯特伦德博士。
Dr. Carolina Westlund is an animal ethologist and expert in animal behavior.
Carolina Westlund 博士是一位动物行为学家和动物行为专家。
Dr. Westlund and I discuss the relationship between humans and domesticated animals, with a focus on the evidence-based protocols for optimizing the mental and physical health of our pets.
韦斯特伦德博士和我讨论了人类和家养动物之间的关系，重点是优化宠物身心健康的循证方案。
Dr. Westlund explains the best way to interact with our animals.
韦斯特伦德博士解释了与动物互动的最佳方式。
Now, we may assume that the way we pet our animals and exercise them and feed them makes them truly happy, but as she points out, many of the things that people assume turn out to be false when it comes to our pets and their fundamental drives.
现在，我们可能会认为我们抚摸动物、锻炼它们和喂养它们的方式会让它们真正快乐，但正如她指出的，当涉及到我们的宠物及其基本动力时，人们的许多假设结果都是错误的。
She teaches us the very basic but powerful things that we can do to satisfy those drives, both for the animal's sake, of course, and to better our relationship with them.
她教给我们一些非常基本但强大的事情，我们可以做一些事情来满足这些冲动，当然，这既是为了动物，也是为了改善我们与它们的关系。
We also discuss the unique neurological and physiological requirements of different dog breeds.
我们还讨论了不同犬种独特的神经和生理需求。
That's a fascinating conversation that stems from their lineage from wolves, and we'll tell you whether or not your particular breed, even if it's a mutt, should be exercised in a particular way, whether or not it needs additional forms of stimulation that you're not currently giving it, and so on.
这是一场有趣的对话，源于狼的血统，我们会告诉你你的特定品种，即使它是杂种狗，是否应该以特定的方式锻炼，它是否需要你目前没有给予它的额外形式的刺激，等等。
And because we both realize there are also cat owners out there too, we discuss the often misunderstood communication signals and social needs of cats.
因为我们都意识到也有猫的主人，所以我们讨论了经常被误解的猫的沟通信号和社交需求。
As you may know, there is a tremendous amount of debate out there about the best training and practices for taking care of our dogs and other animals, and so much of that is grounded in speculation and training outcomes, which of course are important.
如您所知，关于照顾我们的狗和其他动物的最佳训练和实践存在大量争论，其中大部分都是基于猜测和训练结果，这当然很重要。
The conversation today with Dr. Westlund approaches animal health and welfare through the lens of ethology and the species that our pets evolved from to provide actionable protocols that are grounded in science and that you can implement right away to improve your pet's well-being.
今天与 Westlund 博士的对话从动物行为学和我们的宠物进化而来的物种的角度探讨动物健康和福利，以提供基于科学的可行方案，您可以立即实施以改善宠物的福祉。
So if you're a pet owner, this episode is going to be of immense value to you.
因此，如果您是宠物主人，这一集对您来说将具有巨大的价值。
If you're not a pet owner, you'll still learn a ton about animal biology and psychology, including yours.
如果您不是宠物主人，您仍然会学到很多有关动物生物学和心理学的知识，包括您自己的知识。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, this episode does include sponsors.
为了与这个主题保持一致，这一集确实有赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Carolina Westlund.
现在我与 Carolina Westlund 博士进行讨论。
Dr. Carolina Westlund, welcome.
卡罗莱纳·韦斯特兰德博士，欢迎。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm super excited for this conversation.
我对这次谈话感到非常兴奋。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah, me too.
是的，我也是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can barely contain myself.
几乎无法控制自己。
I think we have so much to learn from animals, and I think we have so much to learn from our relationship to animals.
我认为我们有很多东西要向动物学习，我认为我们有很多东西要从我们与动物的关系中学习。
I also believe that we have all sorts of ideas about what animals experience, what they think about us, the relationship that we think we have with them.
我还相信，对于动物的经历、它们对我们的看法以及我们认为我们与它们的关系，我们有各种各样的想法。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Today, you're going to set the record straight.
今天，你要澄清事实。
To start off, could you just briefly list off some of the species of animals that your students have worked with and studied?
首先，您能否简要列出您的学生曾经接触和研究过的一些动物物种？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Most of my students are guardians of animals, so they're dog owners or horse trainers, or they might be veterinarians.
我的大多数学生都是动物的守护者，所以他们是狗主人或驯马师，或者他们可能是兽医。
Some of them work in a zoo as a zookeeper or animal trainer and so on.
他们中的一些人在动物园担任动物园管理员或动物训练师等。
So my students are really diverse, and their knowledge levels is also really diverse, from the sort of person who has their first dog at the age of 40 to somebody who's been training animals for 30 years.
所以我的学生非常多样化，他们的知识水平也非常多样化，从40岁养第一只狗的人到已经训练动物30年的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I grew up around a few horse people.
我是在几个爱马的人身边长大的。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Ah.
啊。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My first girlfriend had a horse, and it was remarkable to me to see and to get some just external understanding of the relationship between human and animal through observing that.
我的第一个女朋友有一匹马，对我来说，通过观察它并获得对人与动物之间关系的一些外部理解是很了不起的。
I think of all the relationships between animals and humans, the horse-human relationship seems to be the one where there's the most amount of physical contact.
我认为在动物与人类之间的所有关系中，马与人的关系似乎是身体接触最多的一种。
You ride a horse.
你骑马。
You learn to read the horse's intentions.
你学会读懂马的意图。
It learns to read yours through these subtle squeezing of the legs or kicking or not kicking hard, but just like a nudge of the heel, just a slight tug on the reins.
它学会通过这些微妙的挤压腿、踢腿或不用力踢腿的动作来读取你的信息，就像轻推脚后跟，轻轻拉一下缰绳一样。
It's really remarkable.
这真的很了不起。
What does the horse experience the world as?
马对世界的体验是怎样的？
I've heard before that they sort of have these orbs of awareness around them, and that they're paying attention to things on the horizon, that they're clearly paying attention to things very up close to their body.
我以前听说过他们周围有这些意识球，他们正在关注地平线上的事物，他们显然正在关注非常接近他们身体的事物。
But if you were to put us into the mind of a horse, as best you can, how does the horse experience the world as a wild horse and with a rider on its back trying to steer it in a particular direction at a particular speed?
但是，如果你尽可能地把我们想象成一匹马，那么这匹马作为一匹野马，骑在它背上的骑手试图以特定的速度引导它朝特定的方向行驶，它是如何体验世界的呢？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
As an ethologist, I tend to take a step back and look at the species in general, and horses are prey animals.
作为一名动物行为学家，我倾向于退后一步，从总体上看待物种，而马是被捕食动物。
They are also herd animals.
它们也是群居动物。
And I think that we, as humans, we tend to not really understand how different animal species can be from ourselves in how they perceive the world and what's important to them.
我认为，作为人类，我们往往无法真正理解动物物种如何与我们自己不同，它们如何看待世界以及什么对它们来说是重要的。
So horses being prey animals means that they're usually quite vigilant, so they're paying a lot of attention to the world, and their visual field is really big, so they can sort of see what's happening back there.
因此，马作为猎物意味着它们通常非常警惕，所以它们对世界有很多关注，而且它们的视野非常大，所以它们可以看到后面发生的事情。
The issue I have with how we raise and keep horses today, as an ethologist and sort of looking at how animals live their lives in the wild, is that we keep them in a way that sort of challenges them in several aspects of that.
作为一名动物行为学家，我对今天如何饲养和饲养马匹的问题以及对动物在野外如何生活的研究的看法是，我们饲养马匹的方式在几个方面对它们提出了挑战。
So we tend to separate them quite early from their mom, even though in the wild, they would stay for a very long time.
所以我们倾向于很早就将它们与它们的妈妈分开，即使在野外，它们也会呆很长时间。
So I think some of the concerns that I have as an ethologist with how we raise horses is the early weaning that we sometimes see, and also single housing for a species that's an aggregating species, and also that in the wild, they will forage up to 16 hours a day.
因此，我认为作为一名动物行为学家，我对马匹饲养方式的一些担忧是我们有时会看到的过早断奶，以及聚集性物种的单一居住环境，而且在野外，它们每天会觅食长达 16 个小时。
And when we bring them into captivity, we typically feed them in the way that promotes very quick eating, for just a fraction of that time.
当我们将它们圈养时，我们通常会以促进快速进食的方式喂养它们，但只持续一小部分时间。
And that can then lead to problem behavior.
这可能会导致行为问题。
So for me, I think horses are probably one of the captive animal species where, for many individual horses, the type of life that we're offering is really not that great.
所以对我来说，我认为马可能是圈养动物物种之一，对于许多马个体来说，我们提供的生活类型实际上并不是那么好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Dogs, I know, are very smell-oriented.
我知道，狗非常注重气味。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They experience the world perhaps largely, but certainly quite a bit through their noses.
他们或许大部分是通过鼻子来体验世界的，但肯定有相当一部分是通过鼻子来体验的。
They can sense odor and scent at a distance.
他们可以在远处感知气味和气味。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And certainly up close, they like to get their nose right into things-
当然，近距离观察时，他们喜欢直接观察事物——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and sniff, get deep sniffs.
闻一闻，深深地闻一闻。
And they're always collecting information with their noses.
他们总是用鼻子收集信息。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's a huge range of dog breeds, and I think any discussion about dogs requires that we first separate out some of the major differences, at least in terms of the purebred versions of them.
狗的品种种类繁多，我认为任何关于狗的讨论都要求我们首先区分出一些主要差异，至少在它们的纯种版本方面是如此。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When I see a Mastiff versus a Chihuahua, versus a scenthound, I'm looking at, to me, what appear to be very different animals.
当我看到獒犬与吉娃娃犬、猎犬相比时，对我来说，我看到的是非常不同的动物。
Is it true that certain dogs rely on their sense of smell far more than others?
某些狗真的比其他狗更依赖嗅觉吗？
And if so, do the ones that rely on their nose just not pay attention to what they're looking at unless you insist?
如果是这样，除非你坚持，那些依赖鼻子的人是否不会注意他们所看到的东西？
The other version of this question is how should we interact with dogs differently depending on what breed of dog they are?
这个问题的另一个版本是我们应该如何根据狗的品种以不同的方式与它们互动？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So I think I can't really answer the first part of that question.
所以我想我无法真正回答这个问题的第一部分。
I don't know the extent to which different dog breeds, their sensory capabilities, how much that differs between different dog breeds.
我不知道不同狗品种的程度、它们的感官能力、不同狗品种之间的差异有多大。
However, how to interact with different dog breeds, I think that's a really interesting question.
然而，如何与不同品种的狗互动，我认为这是一个非常有趣的问题。
So during the process of domestication and in just the last couple of hundred years really, we started selecting for different capabilities in the different dogs that we needed for different tasks, essentially.
因此，在驯化过程中，实际上在过去的几百年里，我们开始选择不同的狗的不同能力，以完成不同的任务。
So if we look at a wolf hunting sequence, what they'll do is they'll do an orient response where they sniff, and they're looking for a prey.
因此，如果我们看一下狼狩猎的场景，它们会做的是，它们会在嗅嗅时做出东方反应，它们正在寻找猎物。
And then they will do some eyeing and stalking behavior.
然后他们会做出一些注视和跟踪的行为。
So they'll focus, and they'll do stalking, and then they'll do chasing, and then they'll do a grab bite, a killing bite, then they'll dissect, and then they'll eat the prey.
所以他们会集中注意力，他们会跟踪，然后他们会追逐，然后他们会抓咬，致命的咬合，然后他们会解剖，然后他们会吃掉猎物。
So we have this whole predatory sequence that we see in wolves.
所以我们看到了狼身上的整个掠食过程。
And what happened during the process of domestication was that we selected for certain aspects of that sequence in different breeds.
在驯化过程中发生的事情是，我们在不同品种中选择了该序列的某些方面。
So we'll have the sniffers, the hounds that are really great at.
所以我们会有嗅探器，它们是非常擅长的猎犬。
And I guess maybe that answers your first question.
我想这也许回答了你的第一个问题。
I think that probably all dog breeds enjoy sniffing.
我认为可能所有品种的狗都喜欢嗅闻。
It's one of the big things that people are exploring a lot now is nose work.
人们现在正在探索的一件大事就是鼻子手术。
But anyway, back to this process of domestication.
但无论如何，回到这个驯化过程。
And then we had the pointers who we have really selected for that behavior.
然后我们就得到了真正为该行为选择的指导者。
In a litter of puppies, we would select the one that was the most prone to do that behavior, and so over generations, we really sculpted that niche, so to speak.
在一窝小狗中，我们会选择最容易做出这种行为的小狗，所以经过几代人的努力，我们确实塑造了这个利基，可以这么说。
So a pointer will typically not proceed to the next behavior of the predatory sequence.
因此，指针通常不会继续执行掠夺序列的下一个行为。
And then we have the border collies who might do some chasing or some eyeing and stalking and a little bit of chase, but ideally no grabbing.
然后我们有边境牧羊犬，它们可能会进行一些追逐或一些注视和跟踪，以及一点点追逐，但最好不要抓取。
Then we have the pure chasers, the greyhounds, for instance.
然后我们有纯粹的追逐者，例如灰狗。
And then we have the grabbers, the retrievers.
然后我们有抓取器、检索器。
And then we have the killers, the terriers.
然后我们就有杀手，梗犬。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People, I'm assuming, were anticipating you to say the pit bulls or the Dobermans, but anyone that's owned a terrier-
我猜想，人们会期待你说斗牛犬或杜宾犬，但任何养过梗犬的人——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
will know that they are great ratting dogs.
就会知道它们是伟大的捕鼠狗。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
They were bred to exterminate small rodents and stuff.
饲养它们是为了消灭小型啮齿动物之类的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Anyone who's seen a Westie, those cute little West Highland Terriers, the little white ones.
任何见过西高地梗的人，那些可爱的小西部高地梗，白色的小梗。
They're real cute.
他们真的很可爱。
If one of those hears or senses a rodent in the wall-
如果其中一个听到或感觉到墙上有啮齿动物——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I've seen one stalk one for several days.
我已经看到一茎一茎好几天了。
They will move along.
他们会继续前进。
We used to call it rat TV.
我们过去称之为老鼠电视。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The Westie will sense when and where the rodent is there with an absolute fixation, and if there's any way to get into that wall and kill that rodent, it's coming out with that rodent in its mouth.
Westie会绝对固定地感知啮齿动物出现的时间和地点，如果有任何方法可以进入那堵墙并杀死该啮齿动物，它就会带着该啮齿动物出来。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's remarkable.
这很了不起。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The amount of dedication is just striking, and it's all about killing that rat.
奉献的程度是惊人的，而这一切都是为了杀死那只老鼠。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
So we systematically, intentionally bred for that-
所以我们系统地、有意地为此培育——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
...
...
a couple of hundred years ago.
几百年前。
And then we have the ones that don't show much of the predatory sequence at all, that simply mostly just eat, which are the, what do you call them?
然后我们还有一些根本没有表现出太多掠夺性序列的东西，它们大多只是吃东西，你怎么称呼它们？
The ones that help, livestock guardians.
那些提供帮助的人，是牲畜监护人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
They still like the sniffing.
他们还是喜欢嗅闻。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
So they tend to retain the sniffing part, and then specific breeds will have one or perhaps a few of the behaviors from the hunting sequence.
因此，它们倾向于保留嗅探部分，然后特定品种将具有狩猎序列中的一种或几种行为。
So I think if we want to offer dogs a good life, we should understand where they are on that scale, and also that the working dogs come with this evolutionary backpack.
所以我认为，如果我们想为狗提供美好的生活，我们应该了解它们在这个规模上的位置，而且工作犬也配备了这个进化背包。
Their genetic backpack will encourage them to really want to do that work.
他们的基因背包会鼓励他们真正想做这项工作。
And then we have also the, I think they're sometimes referred to as toy breeds, the ones, the lap dogs, who are not that interested in any of that working dog behavior.
然后我们还有，我认为它们有时被称为玩具品种，哈巴狗，它们对工作犬的任何行为都不感兴趣。
So I think with regards to the different breeds, we need to really understand what purpose they were bred for, I think.
所以我认为，对于不同的品种，我们需要真正了解它们培育的目的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Our Place.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商“我们的地方”。
Our Place makes my favorite pots, pans, and other cookware.
我们的地方生产我最喜欢的锅、平底锅和其他炊具。
Surprisingly, toxic compounds such as PFAS, or forever chemicals, are still found in 80% of non-stick pans, as well as utensils, appliances, and countless other kitchen products.
令人惊讶的是，80% 的不粘锅以及餐具、电器和无数其他厨房产品中仍然含有 PFAS 或永久化学物质等有毒化合物。
As I've discussed before on this podcast, these PFAS, or forever chemicals like Teflon, have been linked to major health issues such as hormone disruption, gut microbiome disruption, fertility issues, and many other health problems.
正如我之前在这个播客中讨论过的那样，这些 PFAS 或特氟龙等永久性化学物质与荷尔蒙破坏、肠道微生物群破坏、生育问题和许多其他健康问题等重大健康问题有关。
So it's really important to try and avoid them.
因此，尝试避免它们非常重要。
This is why I'm a huge fan of Our Place.
这就是为什么我是《我们的地方》的超级粉丝。
Our Place products are made with the highest quality materials and are all completely PFAS and toxin-free.
我们的 Place 产品采用最优质的材料制成，完全不含 PFAS 和毒素。
I especially love their Titanium Always Pan Pro.
我特别喜欢他们的 Titanium Always Pan Pro。
It's the first non-stick pan made with zero chemicals and zero coating.
这是第一个采用零化学品和零涂层制成的不粘锅。
Instead, it uses pure titanium.
相反，它使用纯钛。
This means it has no harmful forever chemicals and does not degrade or lose its non-stick effect over time.
这意味着它不含永久有害的化学物质，并且不会随着时间的推移而降解或失去其不粘效果。
It's also beautiful to look at.
看起来也很漂亮。
I cook eggs in my Titanium Always Pan Pro almost every morning.
我几乎每天早上都会用 Titanium Always Pan Pro 煮鸡蛋。
The design allows for the eggs to cook perfectly without sticking to the pan.
该设计使鸡蛋能够完美烹饪而不会粘在锅上。
I also cook burgers and steaks in it, and it puts a really nice sear on the meat.
我还用它来做汉堡和牛排，它给肉带来了非常好的烤焦效果。
But again, nothing sticks to it, so it's really easy to clean, and it's even dishwasher safe.
但同样，没有任何东西粘在上面，所以它非常容易清洁，甚至可以用洗碗机清洗。
I love it, and I basically use it constantly.
我很喜欢它，而且我基本上一直在使用它。
Our Place now has a full line of Titanium Pro cookware that uses its first-of-its-kind titanium non-stick technology.
我们的地方现在拥有全系列的 Titanium Pro 炊具，采用其首创的钛不粘技术。
So if you're looking for non-toxic, long-lasting pots and pans, go to fromourplace.com/huberman and use the code Huberman at checkout.
因此，如果您正在寻找无毒、耐用的锅碗瓢盆，请访问 fromourplace.com/huberman 并在结帐时使用代码 Huberman。
Right now, Our Place is having their biggest sale of the season.
目前，Our Place 正在进行本季最大规模的促销活动。
You can get up to 30% off all products now through May 12th, 2025.
从现在到 2025 年 5 月 12 日，所有产品均可享受高达 30% 的折扣。
With a 100-day risk-free trial, free shipping, and free returns, you can try Our Place with zero risk and see why more than one million people have made the switch to Our Place kitchenware.
通过 100 天无风险试用、免费送货和免费退货，您可以零风险试用 Our Place，了解为何超过一百万人改用 Our Place 厨具。
Again, that's fromourplace.com/huberman to get up to 30% off.
同样，来自ourplace.com/huberman 的折扣高达 30%。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Eight Sleep.
今天的节目也是八觉给我们带来的。
Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity.
August Sleep 生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。
Now, I've spoken before on this podcast about the critical need for us to get adequate amounts of quality sleep each and every night.
现在，我之前在这个播客上谈到过我们迫切需要每晚获得充足的优质睡眠。
Now, one of the best ways to ensure a great night's sleep is to ensure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct.
现在，确保一夜好眠的最佳方法之一是确保睡眠环境的温度正确。
And that's because in order to fall and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop about one to three degrees.
这是因为为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，您的体温实际上必须下降约一到三度。
And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees.
为了醒来时感觉神清气爽、精力充沛，您的体温实际上必须升高约一到三度。
Eight Sleep automatically regulates the temperature of your bed throughout the night according to your unique needs.
八睡眠会根据您的独特需求自动调节整个晚上的床温。
Now, I find that extremely useful because I like to make the bed really cool at the beginning of the night, even colder in the middle of the night, and warm as I wake up.
现在，我发现这非常有用，因为我喜欢让床在半夜变得非常凉爽，在半夜变得更冷，而在我醒来时变得温暖。
That's what gives me the most slow-wave sleep and rapid eye movement sleep.
这就是给我最慢波睡眠和快速动眼睡眠的原因。
And I know that because Eight Sleep has a great sleep tracker that tells me how well I've slept and the types of sleep that I'm getting throughout the night.
我知道这一点，因为八睡眠有一个很棒的睡眠追踪器，它可以告诉我我的睡眠质量以及我整晚的睡眠类型。
I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for four years now, and it has completely transformed and improved the quality of my sleep.
我已经睡在八睡眠床垫套上四年了，它彻底改变并改善了我的睡眠质量。
Their latest model, the Pod 4 Ultra, also has snoring detection that will automatically lift your head a few degrees in order to improve your airflow and stop you from snoring.
他们的最新型号 Pod 4 Ultra 还具有打鼾检测功能，可以自动将您的头部抬起几度，以改善气流并阻止您打鼾。
If you decide to try Eight Sleep, you have 30 days to try it at home, and you can return it if you don't like it, no questions asked.
如果您决定尝试八睡眠，您有 30 天的时间在家试用，如果您不喜欢，可以无条件退货。
But I'm sure that you'll love it.
但我确信您会喜欢它。
Go to eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $350 off your Pod 4 Ultra.
前往八睡眠.com/huberman 购买 Pod 4 Ultra 最高可节省 350 美元。
Eight Sleep ships to many countries worldwide, including Mexico and the UAE.
八号睡眠船运往世界各地的许多国家，包括墨西哥和阿联酋。
Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $350 off your Pod 4 Ultra.
再次强调，访问八sleep.com/huberman，您的 Pod 4 Ultra 最高可节省 350 美元。
That's a beautiful and, to me, completely novel description of the breakdown of different breeds.
对我来说，这是对不同品种分类的美丽且完全新颖的描述。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not according to the dosing of wolf versus mastiff genes, which is what some of the more reductionist research papers on this really do.
不是根据狼与獒基因的剂量，而这正是一些对此更为简化的研究论文真正所做的。
They have these charts.
他们有这些图表。
We'll provide a link to one that was published in Science Magazine about 10 years back that had this dosing of mastiff genes versus wolf genes.
我们将提供大约 10 年前发表在《科学》杂志上的一篇文章的链接，其中包含獒犬基因与狼基因的剂量。
And what you just described beautifully breaks down what one observes if you go to a dog park or the beach.
你刚才所描述的内容完美地分解了人们在去狗公园或海滩时所观察到的情况。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My bulldog mastiff, Costello, he was a mudded bulldog.
我的斗牛犬獒，科斯特洛，他是一只浑身是泥的斗牛犬。
So I always say, no underbite.
所以我总是说，不要反颌。
So it wasn't this it was this, right?
所以不是这个而是这个，对吧？
So, a proper bulldog, before they inbred them so much-
所以，一只真正的斗牛犬，在他们近亲繁殖之前——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that they have the underbite and the short snout, the brachycephalic, the breathing issues.
他们有反颌、短鼻子、短头颅、呼吸问题。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But he neither stalked nor chased.
但他既不跟踪也不追赶。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Nor was he interested in killing anything.
他也没有兴趣杀死任何东西。
He didn't have that sense to try and harm.
他没有那种尝试去伤害的意识。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But he certainly liked to consume.
但他确实喜欢消费。
So he was at the end of that behavioral description.
所以他的行为描述已经结束了。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think-
我认为——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
And what were they bred for?
培育它们的目的是什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I'll try and not take up too much time on this one-
所以我会尽量不要在这件事上占用太多时间-
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Okay
好的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because I want to learn from you.
因为我想向你学习。
The original bulldog line-
最初的斗牛犬系-
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
was a cross between something like a mastiff-
是獒犬之类的东西的杂交——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
strong, large, high pain tolerance-
强、大、高疼痛耐受性-
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and a pug, short snout.
还有一只哈巴狗，短鼻子。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the gene cross there, and obviously the dog geneticists weren't thinking about specific genes, they were thinking about traits-
基因在那里交叉，显然狗遗传学家并没有考虑特定的基因，他们正在考虑性状 -
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
was the short snout was great for what's called bullbaiting, because that short snout provides the kind of lever that when they bite down onto the nose of a bull, which is what they were used for, it was a pretty cruel practice, very hard to shake them loose.
短鼻子非常适合所谓的斗牛，因为短鼻子提供了一种杠杆，当它们咬住公牛的鼻子时，这就是它们的用途，这是一种相当残酷的做法，很难将它们甩开。
The bull could shake them, and they're not going to shake loose.
公牛可以撼动他们，但他们不会松懈。
Just think about trying to pick something up with long tongs.
想象一下尝试用长钳子夹起东西。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
The physics of this versus a clamp.
这个与夹子的物理原理。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Like a C clamp.
就像C型夹一样。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The mutation that takes the pain receptors out of the face or reduces them, is close by another gene that is involved in generating the tensile nature of the skin.
将疼痛感受器从脸上移除或减少的突变与另一个参与产生皮肤张力的基因很接近。
So this is why they have the jowls, the folds.
这就是为什么它们有下巴和褶皱。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Oh, right.
哦，对了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you can, I don't suggest anyone do this, but Costello, I'll just give an example, sometimes unfortunately would get a fish hook through his jowl when he was playing at the ocean or something.
你可以，我不建议任何人这样做，但是科斯特洛，我只是举个例子，有时不幸的是，当他在海边玩耍或其他什么的时候，鱼钩会穿过他的下巴。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And he'd come up to me bleeding, smiling.
他满脸是血地微笑着向我走来。
Basically, you have to take this thing out.
基本上，你必须把这个东西拿出来。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
So his pain tolerance was quite high.
所以他的疼痛承受能力是相当高的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Pain tolerance is very high in the front of the animal, in the face, and toward the rear of the animal, you touch his back toe and it's...
动物的前部、脸部和后部的疼痛耐受性非常高，你触摸它的后脚趾，就会……
So they have a gradient of pain receptors that runs high density in the back, low density to the front.
因此，它们的疼痛感受器具有梯度，后部密度高，前部密度低。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So they were bred for bullbaiting.
所以它们是为了斗牛而饲养的。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the original line has been bred out.
并且原来的品系已经培育出来了。
It's people who care about the bulldog breed, and bringing some more humane breeding practices to the bulldog because it's a pretty brutal breed now-
是人们关心斗牛犬品种，并为斗牛犬带来了一些更人性化的饲养方法，因为它现在是一个相当野蛮的品种——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
have tried to reestablish the original line, which again, were elbows back, no strong underbite, as opposed to what you see now.
试图重建原来的线，肘部向后，没有强烈的反颌，与你现在看到的相反。
So that's the sort of brief history on the bulldog.
这就是斗牛犬的简史。
They have to be born by cesarean because big shoulders, small hips.
由于肩膀大、臀部小，她们必须剖腹产。
Anyway, the interesting thing about the bulldog, I always said, and this will take us back to behavior, was the contract that I felt I had with my bulldog was one of he would protect me to the death.
无论如何，关于斗牛犬的有趣的事情，我总是说，这会让我们回到行为，是我觉得我和我的斗牛犬签订的合同是他会保护我至死不渝的合同之一。
You do notice that any time they hear a noise or anything, they're hypervigilant.
你确实注意到，每当他们听到噪音或任何东西时，他们都会高度警惕。
But if there's no impending threat, total relaxation.
但如果没有迫在眉睫的威胁，那就完全放松。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The most efficient use of energy of any species.
任何物种中能源利用效率最高的。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So basically, it was, "I'll die for you, Andrew, but unless your life is in danger, I'm not going to do anything."
所以基本上，它是，“我会为你而死，安德鲁，但除非你的生命处于危险之中，否则我不会做任何事情。”
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So maybe we could talk about temperament in dogs-
所以也许我们可以谈谈狗的气质——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and how they experience their emotional life.
以及他们如何体验情感生活。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't know if we can make general statements about this, but you've spent a lot of your time thinking about the emotional life of animals.
我不知道我们是否可以对此做出一般性的陈述，但您花了很多时间思考动物的情感生活。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What does a dog need in order to feel calm and safe?
狗需要什么才能感到平静和安全？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Great question.
很好的问题。
Yeah, so in order to feel calm and safe, I think perhaps we should go to the core affect space.
是的，所以为了感到平静和安全，我想也许我们应该去核心影响空间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Which I think is one of the three emotional models that I find very useful in understanding and providing a good environment for animals so that they can thrive, really.
我认为这是三种情感模型之一，我发现它们对于理解动物并为它们提供良好的环境以便它们能够真正茁壮成长非常有用。
So the core affect space is one way of depicting or conceptualizing emotions where we have valence on the X-axis, so how pleasant or unpleasant something is, and we have arousal on the Y-axis.
因此，核心情感空间是描述或概念化情感的一种方式，其中我们在 X 轴上有价，所以某件事有多愉快或不愉快，而我们在 Y 轴上有唤醒。
So what you're asking is how can we make animals, and not just dogs, but any species, how can we put them in quadrant two of that core affect space, essentially?
所以你问的是我们如何才能创造动物，而不仅仅是狗，而是任何物种，我们如何才能将它们本质上放在核心影响空间的第二象限？
So low arousal and pleasant, so where they're relaxed and they're feeling safe, and they're sort of engaging socially with others and being at ease, if you will.
如此低的兴奋度和愉快，所以他们放松，他们感到安全，他们在某种程度上与他人进行社交活动并且感到轻松，如果你愿意的话。
So how do we get there?
那么我们如何到达那里呢？
And I think that some of the things to consider is then the absence of negative emotions.
我认为需要考虑的一些事情是没有负面情绪。
So again, if we're in the core affect space in the quadrant four with the high arousal unpleasant states, we'll find things like fear, aggression.
再说一次，如果我们处于第四象限的核心影响空间，具有高唤醒不愉快状态，我们会发现诸如恐惧、攻击性之类的东西。
So helping reduce that will sort of automatically help animals move to the right in the matrix.
因此，帮助减少这种情况将自动帮助动物在矩阵中移动到右侧。
And in the lower quadrant three with the unpleasant low arousal state where animals tend to end up if they're sort of bored or depressed, is engaging them, providing an environment that's stimulating that they can do interesting things in to help them move into the right side of the core affect space.
在下象限第三个区域，动物处于令人不愉快的低唤醒状态，如果动物感到无聊或沮丧，它们往往会陷入这种状态，正在吸引它们，提供一个刺激的环境，让它们可以做有趣的事情，帮助它们进入核心影响空间的右侧。
And also to the top in that, the quadrant one is the high arousal pleasant state, but that would be like seeking or foraging behavior, exploration, play, sex.
而且在这一点上，第一象限是高唤醒愉悦状态，但这就像寻找或觅食行为、探索、玩耍、性。
But as to your question, how do we get into quadrant two with feeling safe and sort of that warm, fuzzy feeling?
但至于你的问题，我们如何进入第二象限并感到安全和温暖、模糊的感觉？
So some of the things to do might be to, if the animal enjoys it coming from you, and they often have to know you in order to really appreciate it, is tactile stimulation, so petting essentially.
因此，如果动物喜欢你的抚摸，并且它们通常必须了解你才能真正欣赏它，那么要做的一些事情可能是触觉刺激，所以本质上是抚摸。
Something that might interfere is that we primates, we humans are primates, and we're huggers.
可能会干扰的事情是我们灵长类动物，我们人类是灵长类动物，我们是拥抱者。
We tend to sort of go like this when we want to interact with an animal that we really like.
当我们想与我们真正喜欢的动物互动时，我们往往会这样做。
And to many animals, this is restraint and really scary.
对于许多动物来说，这是一种束缚，而且非常可怕。
And so the type of body contact that we offer to animals that we should consider whether they really enjoy it or not, whether they tolerate it or enjoy it, and one way of doing that is to offer a consent test.
因此，我们向动物提供的身体接触类型，我们应该考虑它们是否真的喜欢它，是否容忍它或享受它，而做到这一点的一种方法是提供同意测试。
So you might offer your hand and scratch a little bit, ideally in a place that the animal really enjoys.
所以你可以伸出你的手并抓挠一下，最好是在动物真正喜欢的地方。
So most dogs don't enjoy having a hand on top of their head, but rather perhaps here.
所以大多数狗不喜欢把手放在头顶上，但也许更喜欢把手放在头顶上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
On their neck.
在他们的脖子上。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Or the upper chest, sort of.
或者上胸部之类的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So you might do that for a few seconds, and then you remove your hand to see does the animal enjoy this, and will they then re-initiate that contact or not, or will they move away?
所以你可能会这样做几秒钟，然后你移开你的手，看看动物是否喜欢这个，然后他们会重新开始这种接触，还是会走开？
And I have this issue with my cat now that he doesn't enjoy petting as much as I do petting him, so I have to be really mindful that I really offer him the chance to say, "No, thanks."
现在我和我的猫有一个问题，因为他不像我那样喜欢抚摸他，所以我必须非常小心，我真的给他机会说：“不，谢谢。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So we might consider just touching the animal as you're calling a consent test-
因此，当您进行同意测试时，我们可能会考虑触摸动物-
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as a test, and then if they move toward you, then what is the pattern of tactile stimulation that dogs like?
作为测试，然后如果它们向你靠近，那么狗喜欢什么样的触觉刺激模式？
I've been reading up on this a little bit, and somebody ran an experiment that I think is kind of interesting, describing the differences between rates of petting.
我已经阅读了一些这方面的内容，有人做了一个我认为很有趣的实验，描述了抚摸率之间的差异。
And basically, the conclusion was that essentially they claim that all dogs are averse to very rapid touch.
基本上，结论是他们声称所有的狗都讨厌非常快速的触摸。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But that people tend to pat quickly.
但人们往往拍得很快。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they showed a beautiful example of if one just deliberately strokes the animal very slowly-
他们展示了一个美丽的例子，如果一个人故意非常缓慢地抚摸动物——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the animal's eyelids just start to hood.
动物的眼睑刚刚开始遮盖。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you basically just diffuse the tension very quickly.
基本上，你很快就能消除紧张情绪。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Interesting.
有趣的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which I think is interesting, as humans we think, oh, we want to pat the dog on its head, and for some reason, we associate patting with fast patting.
我认为这很有趣，作为人类，我们认为，哦，我们想拍拍狗的头，并且出于某种原因，我们将拍拍与快速拍拍联系在一起。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or petting as a quick process.
或者抚摸是一个快速的过程。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're going to scratch and pet this animal, where it very well could be that all the dogs out there are just dying for some really nice slow strokes.
你会抓挠并抚摸这只动物，很可能所有的狗都渴望得到一些非常好的缓慢的抚摸。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And I also think that that nice slow stroke, if you're sort of in a calm emotional state yourself, then we might tap into another interesting emotion theory, which is the polyvagal theory and this concept of co-regulation.
我还认为，如果你自己处于一种平静的情绪状态，那很好的缓慢的中风，那么我们可能会利用另一个有趣的情绪理论，即多迷走神经理论和共同调节的概念。
So if you're really calm and relaxed, then you're sort of sending out these cues, these subtle cues that other individuals are reading and picking up on, and it seems that we do that with vis-à-vis also our dogs and certainly also horses it seems.
所以，如果你真的很平静和放松，那么你就会发出这些暗示，这些微妙的暗示，其他人正在阅读和接受，而且似乎我们也对我们的狗，当然还有马这样做。
So that just being calm and relaxed yourself can really help relax the dog.
因此，只要你自己保持冷静和放松，就能真正帮助狗放松。
And what you say about the fast petting or patting really makes sense to me.
你所说的快速抚摸或拍打对我来说确实很有意义。
I know there's one study in horses that show that if you pat a horse, many horses find that aversive.
我知道有一项针对马的研究表明，如果你拍一匹马，很多马都会感到厌恶。
So in other words, it's something that they'll work to avoid, and yet that is often how we try to reward them when they do something that we want.
换句话说，这是他们会努力避免的事情，然而，当他们做了我们想要的事情时，这通常是我们试图奖励他们的方式。
They do enjoy wither scratching, so back at the nape of the mane.
它们确实喜欢在枯萎处抓挠，所以在鬃毛的后颈处。
If you scratch them there, they'll typically enjoy that.
如果你在那里抓挠他们，他们通常会喜欢的。
But I would say that different animals, different individuals will have these individual preferences, and just trying to see what they like.
但我想说的是，不同的动物、不同的个体会有这些个人偏好，只是想看看他们喜欢什么。
And perhaps also if you're offering your hands like this, they might even scoot around to show you which body part they want scratched once they learn the rules of that communication.
也许如果你像这样伸出你的手，一旦他们学会了这种交流的规则，他们甚至可能会四处走动，向你展示他们想要抓伤的身体部位。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I feel like dogs want the part of their body scratched that they can't access on their own.
我觉得狗想要抓伤他们自己无法触及的身体部位。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm yet to meet a dog that doesn't like being scratched on its rump.
我还没有见过一只不喜欢被抓屁股的狗。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Bum scratching is a big thing for many animals, yeah.
是的，抓屁股对许多动物来说是一件大事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah, horses too.
是的，还有马。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like the top side of their back leg.
就像他们后腿的上侧。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Like right there.
就像就在那里。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's got to feel so good.
感觉一定很好。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because they can't get to that.
因为他们无法做到这一点。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As well as underneath their rear leg.
以及后腿下方。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Like just kind of in the crook of the rear leg, that soft skin there.
就像后腿的弯曲处，那里柔软的皮肤。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
But having interacted with dogs that were more skittish versus more calm-
但在与那些更容易受惊而不是更冷静的狗互动之后——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I totally agree that different animals, regardless of breed, just have a completely different relationship to touch.
我完全同意，不同的动物，无论品种如何，都有完全不同的触摸关系。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And how quickly they want to interact.
以及他们想要多快地互动。
I've heard, and I don't know if it's true, that for dogs, space is a big thing.
我听说，但我不知道是否属实，对于狗来说，空间是一件大事。
I don't know if this is true.
我不知道这是不是真的。
I'm sure someone will refute this, but the idea that if your dog runs up to you when you walk in, or a dog runs up to you and it's a new dog you're just meeting, and they touch you, or they jump up on your shin, that it's their attempt to dominate you.
我相信有人会反驳这一点，但如果你走进去时你的狗跑向你，或者一只狗跑向你，而且它是你刚刚遇到的一只新狗，它们会碰你，或者跳到你的小腿上，那就是它们试图统治你。
Like, "This is my space.
就像，“这是我的空间。
I'm controlling you." Because you wouldn't necessarily walk up to a dog that you just met and just get right in their space without them approaching you as well.
我在控制你。”因为你不一定会走到一只刚认识的狗面前，然后就进入它们的空间，而它们也不会靠近你。
What are your thoughts on this whole dominant submission thing on the basis of touch and space?
你对这个基于触摸和空间的主导服从的事情有什么看法？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
That's like Pandora's box right there.
这就像潘多拉魔盒一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
I don't have any stake in this.
我在这件事上没有任何利害关系。
I just would like to learn, and I would like people to learn so that they can have better interactions-
我只是想学习，也希望人们学习，这样才能有更好的互动——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with and for animals.
与动物一起并为动物服务。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah, so first of all, I think that actually we often do walk up to stranger dogs that we never met before.
是的，首先，我认为实际上我们经常走向以前从未见过的陌生狗。
We're like, "Hi, can I pet him?" And then we start patting on top of the-
我们会说，“嗨，我可以抚摸他吗？”然后我们开始拍拍-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Guilty
有罪
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
...
...
animal's head.
动物的头。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Guilty.
有罪。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
So I think that we do do that.
所以我认为我们确实这样做了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
And then this whole discussion about dominance is really interesting because as an ethologist, how we define dominance is completely different from how most people define it.
然后，关于主导地位的整个讨论非常有趣，因为作为一名动物行为学家，我们如何定义主导地位与大多数人的定义完全不同。
And I actually looked into the encyclopedia to see how is dominance defined there, and I find that there's two lines of that definition.
我实际上查阅了百科全书，看看其中的支配地位是如何定义的，我发现该定义有两行。
So one is the ethological definition of dominance, and one is the sociological definition of dominance.
因此，一种是支配地位的行为学定义，一种是支配地位的社会学定义。
And I think that what we're doing often is that we're using the sociological definition on animals in a way that's, I think, unfortunate.
我认为我们经常做的是，我们以一种我认为不幸的方式对动物使用社会学定义。
Because the ethological definition is about priority of access to resources.
因为行为学的定义是关于资源获取的优先权。
Here's a resource, here's like five individuals coming up to it.
这是一个资源，这里有五个人正在使用它。
There's just one there.
那里只有一个。
The dominant individual will have priority of access to that resource.
占主导地位的个体将优先获得该资源。
The others simply have to wait or look elsewhere.
其他人只能等待或寻找其他地方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
And this reduces the risk of sort of confrontation and aggression and all the costs associated with that.
这减少了对抗和侵略的风险以及与之相关的所有成本。
So it's normal that animals who hang out together, who are in a stable social group, will organize or have some sort of dominance hierarchy within them that allows this to take place to reduce the risk of aggression.
因此，在一起闲逛的动物，在一个稳定的社会群体中，会组织起来，或者在它们内部有某种统治等级，这是正常的，这样可以减少攻击的风险。
It tends to become exacerbated in captivity.
在圈养中，这种情况往往会加剧。
Compared to in wild contexts, because then the animals can disperse, and there's a resource over there that they can go and get instead.
与野生环境相比，因为这样动物就可以分散，并且那里有资源可以让他们去获取。
But when we house them, and specifically we're offering, you have two cats or three cats, and here's the food.
但是当我们安置它们时，特别是我们提供的，你有两只猫或三只猫，这就是食物。
You're putting the animals in conflict because cats are solitary hunters, so if you have several cats, you should feed them in separate locations to reduce that heightened arousal that goes with that type of feeding.
你会让这些动物陷入冲突，因为猫是孤独的猎人，所以如果你有几只猫，你应该在不同的地方喂养它们，以减少与这种喂养方式相关的高度兴奋。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
There's dominance among dogs or among dogs and other non-human animals.
狗之间或狗与其他非人类动物之间存在统治地位。
I'm thinking in terms of the relationship between human and dog.
我在思考人与狗之间的关系。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And touch and space.
还有触摸和空间。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've heard that if the dog touches you, it thinks it owns you.
我听说如果狗碰了你，它就会认为它拥有你。
I've heard that if you move into a space that the dog is in, it backs away, then it thinks of you as dominant.
我听说如果你进入狗所在的空间，它会后退，然后它就会认为你占主导地位。
I've also heard that if the dog moves into your space very quickly, that it sees itself as the leader in this relationship.
我还听说，如果狗很快进入你的空间，它就会认为自己是这段关系中的领导者。
There are a lot of theories out there about this, and I'm realizing that all these theories about animals must be very contentious because they lack the language to tell us what we want to know.
关于这个有很多理论，我意识到所有这些关于动物的理论一定是非常有争议的，因为它们缺乏语言来告诉我们我们想知道什么。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so we're always sort of guessing when we're doing ethology.
因此，当我们进行行为学研究时，我们总是在猜测。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
I would not label any of those situations that you described as a dominance interaction, actually.
实际上，我不会将您所描述的任何情况标记为主导互动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
I would rather, if the dog backs away when you confront them, I would rather label that as perhaps a fearful reaction.
我宁愿，如果狗在你面对它们时退缩，我宁愿将其标记为可能是一种恐惧的反应。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Not submissive, as in giving you priority of access to a resource.
不顺从，例如给予您访问资源的优先权。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Typically, feral dogs in the wild will form linear dominance hierarchies with regards to the access to resources, and that might shift depending on what the resource is.
通常，野外的野狗在获取资源方面会形成线性的统治等级，并且这种等级可能会根据资源的不同而变化。
So it's not like it's written in stone or anything.
所以这并不是一成不变的。
So it's fluid and variable, but there's still typically some sort of hierarchy when it comes to the priority of access to resources.
因此，它是流动的和可变的，但是当涉及到资源访问的优先级时，通常仍然存在某种层次结构。
Then we have another social role, which is the role as a leader, and when I, as an ethologist say leader, I mean the one that leads, that walks first in line from one location to another.
然后我们还有另一个社会角色，那就是领导者的角色，当我作为一名行为学家说领导者时，我指的是领导者，第一个从一个地方走到另一个地方的人。
I like to take the example of elephants, that when they migrate, it's typically one of the old females, the matriarch, who leads the way.
我喜欢以大象为例，当它们迁徙时，通常是由一只年长的雌性大象，即女族长，带路。
She's the leader, so she'll help them find-- she knows where to go, essentially.
她是领导者，所以她会帮助他们找到——她基本上知道该去哪里。
And there's other social roles as well.
还有其他社会角色。
There might be the controller, who is the animal who tends to initiate a change in activity.
可能有控制者，他是倾向于发起活动变化的动物。
So we see this in cows, for instance, that all the cows are standing up and they're grazing, and then one cow, the controller, lies down, and everybody else lies down also.
例如，我们在奶牛身上看到这一点，所有奶牛都站着吃草，然后一头奶牛（控制者）躺下，其他人也躺下。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
And they start ruminating.
他们开始沉思。
They will often synchronize their behavior, but they'll follow.
他们经常会同步他们的行为，但他们会跟随。
It's not that one individual is imposing on the others, but rather they do that and the others follow suit.
并不是一个人强加给其他人，而是他们这样做了，其他人也效仿了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have heard this, that when you walk your dog, that your dog should be next to you or behind you.
我听说，当你遛狗时，你的狗应该在你旁边或后面。
Very few dog owners actually walk with their dog behind them.
很少有狗主人真正走路时会带着他们的狗在身后。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I live in an area that is frequented by dogs and owners.
我住在一个狗和主人经常光顾的地区。
It's interesting to interpret that as a question, which is if the dog walks in front, does it mean that it somehow is the leader?
将其解释为一个问题很有趣，即如果狗走在前面，是否意味着它在某种程度上是领导者？
Are humans just completely wrong about all this stuff?
人类对所有这些东西的看法是完全错误的吗？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
I think so.
我想是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I think that we carry a lot of-- and actually, we haven't mentioned this, I think, but I have very little practical experience with dogs.
我认为我们携带了很多——实际上，我认为我们没有提到这一点，但我对狗的实际经验很少。
I haven't lived with dogs, I haven't trained dogs, but many of my students train dogs, and I help them.
我没有和狗一起生活过，也没有训练过狗，但我的许多学生训练狗，我帮助他们。
But that also means that I don't carry any of these sort of assumptions that you're supposed to have your dog behind you or beside you, that if you don't, then...
但这也意味着我不认为你应该让你的狗在你身后或旁边，如果你不这样做，那么......
Which means that I can look at that type of statement and go, "Really?"
这意味着我可以看到这种类型的陈述并说：“真的吗？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Because I think that there's a lot of learning occurring, of course, that we teach the dog that if you stay at my side or behind me, then there won't be any unpleasantness, but if you pull ahead, I'm going to yank you back.
因为我认为，当然，我们学到了很多东西，我们教狗，如果你留在我身边或在我身后，那么不会有任何不愉快，但如果你领先，我会把你拉回来。
So there'll be an unpleasant consequence to the pulling behavior, which will then influence the animal's choice in staying next to you.
因此，拉扯行为会产生令人不快的后果，从而影响动物选择留在你身边。
But I think what we label as dominance can very often be just, if we just remove that label and we look at the animal's behavior, we can explain it in other terms.
但我认为我们所贴上的统治地位的标签通常是公正的，如果我们去掉这个标签并观察动物的行为，我们可以用其他术语来解释它。
And again, for me, dominance as an ethologist has to do with the priority of access to resources.
再说一遍，对我来说，作为行为学家的主导地位与获取资源的优先权有关。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So along the lines of priority of access to resources, when I got my puppy, I was taught in the dog training course that I took with him, that I should eat and then he should eat, or that we could eat alongside one another, different food.
因此，按照获取资源的优先顺序，当我得到我的小狗时，我在和他一起参加的狗训练课程中被教导，我应该吃，然后他也应该吃，或者我们可以一起吃不同的食物。
Although, I confess, I often fed him steak.
不过，我承认，我经常给他吃牛排。
If it was appropriate food for a bulldog, I fed it to him.
如果这对斗牛犬来说是合适的食物，我就会喂给他。
As opposed to letting him eat before me because of this access to resources thing.
而不是因为获取资源的问题而让他在我面前吃饭。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is there any truth to that?
这有道理吗？
This is taught in a lot of dog/owner training.
许多狗/主人的培训都会教授这一点。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
I-
我-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because a lot of dog training is actually owner training.
因为很多狗的训练实际上就是主人的训练。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Of course.
当然。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Sure.
当然。
You have to set up the situation to work for you and the animal, but again, I would not frame that in terms of dominance.
你必须创造一个对你和动物都有利的环境，但同样，我不会用支配地位来描述这一点。
Dogs form relationships with us, but as far as I know from the ethological perspective, we have no role in a dominance hierarchy among dogs.
狗与我们形成关系，但据我所知，从行为学的角度来看，我们在狗的统治等级中没有任何作用。
They know that we are different, and they will learn to expect that if In this context, that will happen.
他们知道我们是不同的，他们会学会期待，如果在这种情况下，那将会发生。
In that context, that will happen.
在这种情况下，这将会发生。
And so we can often reframe that from in a different learning system than dominance.
因此，我们经常可以在与支配地位不同的学习系统中重新构建这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a novel perspective because I think that so much of what's out there in terms of dog/owner training is really about not so much dominance, but really trying to establish a relationship where it's clear that you're the caretaker to "make them feel safe," so that their job is very clear, so they don't feel the anxiety of needing to perform roles that perhaps are yours.
这是一个新颖的观点，因为我认为，在狗/主人训练方面，很多内容实际上并不是关于主导地位，而是真正试图建立一种关系，明确你是看护者，“让他们感到安全”，这样他们的工作就非常明确，这样他们就不会因为需要扮演可能属于你的角色而感到焦虑。
There's a lot like what you hear when you hear about parent-child-
有很多就像你听到亲子时听到的那样——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
training, basically.
培训，基本上。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So maybe given the sort of pattern of your answers over the last couple of questions, I should ask the question, which is a really straightforward one, which is: How do you think about animals?
因此，也许考虑到您对最后几个问题的回答模式，我应该问一个非常简单的问题：您如何看待动物？
What is your view of animals when you think about them?
当你想到动物时，你对它们有什么看法？
I know you're interested in their welfare and improving their well-being and conditions.
我知道您对他们的福利以及改善他们的福祉和条件感兴趣。
But when you see an animal, most people say, "Okay, well, that's a dog, that's a horse, that's a parrot.
但当你看到一只动物时，大多数人都会说：“好吧，那是一只狗，那是一匹马，那是一只鹦鹉。
Can I interact with it?
我可以和它互动吗？
Maybe I don't want to, or maybe I have a phobia.
也许我不想，或者也许我有恐惧症。
Who knows?"
谁知道？”
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But how do you think about animals?
但你如何看待动物呢？
What's driving this inquiry in terms of their emotional and their cognitive life?
是什么推动了他们的情感和认知生活的调查？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
First of all, I think that we humans are also an animal species, and that we tend to sort of put ourselves on a pedestal and think that we are one, and then animals are the other, as if it were homogeneous, which it really isn't.
首先，我认为我们人类也是一种动物，我们倾向于把自己放在一个基座上，认为我们是一个，然后动物是另一个，好像它们是同质的，但事实并非如此。
So each animal species have their own adaptation.
因此，每种动物都有自己的适应能力。
We have our own adaptations, and all the other animal species that we surround ourselves with do as well.
我们有自己的适应能力，我们周围的所有其他动物物种也是如此。
So, I don't know if that really answers your question, but the work I do is to sort of try to help animals live better lives with humans.
所以，我不知道这是否真的回答了你的问题，但我所做的工作是尝试帮助动物与人类一起过上更好的生活。
And that very often starts with understanding how that animal species would live in the wild and the type of life that they have, whether they're a predator, whether they're a prey animal species, how they process the world, the type of information that they take in.
这通常始于了解该动物物种在野外如何生活以及它们的生活类型，它们是否是捕食者，是否是被捕食动物物种，它们如何处理世界，它们吸收的信息类型。
So for instance, we might see a dog who's wagging his tail, and we might think that it's only happy dogs that wag their tails, but actually, tail wagging is seen in many different contexts.
例如，我们可能会看到一只狗在摇尾巴，我们可能会认为只有快乐的狗才会摇尾巴，但实际上，摇尾巴可以在许多不同的情况下看到。
And we might think of it as a visual communication thing.
我们可能会认为它是一种视觉传达的东西。
But actually, it could be that they're dispersing scent.
但实际上，它们可能是在散发气味。
The tail wag will sort of-- That scent will waft over to you so you can take in information about my current emotional state.
尾巴摇动会有点——那种气味会飘到你身上，这样你就可以了解我当前的情绪状态。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They definitely have scent glands back there.
他们那里肯定有气味腺。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Interesting.
有趣的。
So can we interpret dog wags of different types?
那么我们可以解释不同类型的狗摇摆吗？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is there a way to do that?
有办法做到这一点吗？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
So one very interesting thing is that the dog wagging with a predominant left wag tends-
所以一件非常有趣的事情是，以左摇为主的狗往往会——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Left for the dog?
留给狗？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Left for the dog.
留给狗了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
So he's wagging on the left-hand side of his body-
所以他在身体的左侧摇摆——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
...
...
tends to be associated with negative emotional states, and on the right tends to be associated with positive emotional states.
倾向于与消极情绪状态相关，而右侧往往与积极情绪状态相关。
And the same, cats tend to look at the world from the left when in a negative emotional state-
同样，猫在处于消极情绪状态时往往会从左边看世界——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So-
所以——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
...
...
and from the right when in a positive emotional state.
当处于积极的情绪状态时，从右边开始。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So looking from the left, meaning the left eye is slightly forward.
所以从左边看，意味着左眼稍微向前。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The head tilted, so the right eye-
头歪了，所以右眼——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
So taking in that information with this eye.
所以用这只眼睛吸收这些信息。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, okay.
那么，好吧。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
If you're scary, I'm going to look at you.
如果你害怕的话，我会看着你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some people are just listening, they're not watching-
有些人只是在听，他们没有在看——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Okay
好的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
so they can't see this.
所以他们看不到这个。
So what Carolina is describing is if the head is turned slightly to the side, so the left eye is forward-
所以卡罗莱纳所描述的是如果头部稍微转向一侧，那么左眼就会向前-
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that's a negative.
这是负面的。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
So they're looking at the stimulus-
所以他们正在寻找刺激措施-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
...
...
with their left eye-
用他们的左眼——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
...
...
if that stimulus is fear-inducing.
如果这种刺激会引起恐惧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the opposite to the right-hand side-
与右侧相反的是——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
if it's more-
如果还有的话-
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
attractive to them or-
对他们有吸引力或-
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So this is lateralized.
所以这是偏向的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
And then the tail wag, you said a dog wagging on the left-hand side, more negative.
然后尾巴摇，你说狗在左边摇，比较消极。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right-hand side-
右手边——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
more positive.
更积极。
What about full sweeps?
全面扫荡呢？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Full sweeps, and I don't know the details here, but certainly, the type of tail wag, whether it's sort of very low and fast or whether it's high and sort of stiff, will communicate different emotional states.
全面扫动，我不知道这里的细节，但可以肯定的是，尾巴摆动的类型，无论是非常低且快速，还是高且有点僵硬，都会传达不同的情绪状态。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you think that over time, we learn these signals without realizing that we learn these signals?
您是否认为随着时间的推移，我们学习这些信号却没有意识到我们学习了这些信号？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yes, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because we associate it with our dog being in a particular-
因为我们将它与我们的狗处于特定的状态联系起来——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
circumstance or behaving-
情况或行为——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in a certain way.
以某种方式。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
So studies have shown that we humans are actually-- We learn to read dogs by exposure, even passive exposure, just living in an environment.
所以研究表明，我们人类实际上是——我们通过接触，甚至是被动接触，只是生活在一个环境中来学会读懂狗的。
And apparently, if we live in a culture where dogs live close with humans, we get better in reading dogs, and then in cultures where dogs don't interact that much with humans.
显然，如果我们生活在狗与人类关系密切的文化中，我们会更好地阅读狗的信息，然后在狗与人类互动较少的文化中。
So there's that.
所以就是这样。
And there's also the issue that we are typically better at reading gross body language than we are at reading facial expressions.
还有一个问题是，我们通常更擅长解读粗俗的肢体语言，而不是面部表情。
Apparently, one of the reasons being that dogs move different facial muscles when they make emotional facial expressions.
显然，原因之一是狗在做出情绪化的面部表情时会移动不同的面部肌肉。
They move different muscles than what humans do.
它们移动的肌肉与人类不同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What can you tell us about the facial expressions of dogs?
关于狗的面部表情，你能告诉我们什么吗？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Well, there's been some studies in the last couple of years that have looked at which muscles are moving-
嗯，过去几年有一些研究考察了哪些肌肉在运动——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
...
...
when, in which contexts.
何时、在何种情况下。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
So they'll expose the dog to different types of stimuli, and they'll film the dog and look at what muscles are twitching.
因此，他们会让狗接受不同类型的刺激，然后拍摄狗的视频并观察哪些肌肉在抽搐。
Where is the face moving in response to the stimuli?
脸部因刺激而移动的位置在哪里？
So those types of studies have found that when a dog is exposed to, let's say thunder or fireworks sounds, they will show a certain facial configuration.
这些类型的研究发现，当狗听到雷声或烟花声时，它们会表现出某种面部构造。
When their owner returns home after not being seen for several hours, they will show a different facial configuration, and so on.
当它们的主人在几个小时不见踪影后回到家时，它们会表现出不同的面部构造，等等。
So it seems that they do show facial expressions.
所以看来他们确实表现出了面部表情。
It's just that some of those facial expressions are...
只是有些表情……
It's not the same muscles that we show in the corresponding emotional state.
我们在相应的情绪状态下表现出的肌肉并不相同。
So that would, I think, bias us to misreading dogs' facial expressions from that perspective.
因此，我认为，这会让我们从这个角度误读狗的面部表情。
But then again, if we live with dogs, we won't observe just the facial expression.
但话又说回来，如果我们和狗一起生活，我们不会只观察狗的面部表情。
We will observe the entire dog, and we're often better off reading their body language than we are reading their facial expression, even though I think that studies also show that the face is where we look first.
我们会观察整只狗，我们通常能更好地阅读它们的肢体语言，而不是阅读它们的面部表情，尽管我认为研究也表明，面部是我们首先看的地方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which behaviors in dogs are maintained from interactions with other dogs when they interact with humans?
当狗与人类互动时，哪些行为是通过与其他狗的互动而维持的？
For instance, if one is going to take a dog out on a walk, and it's familiar with the sound of the leash coming off the hook or something like that, it's not uncommon for a dog to go into that long, full front-leg stretch that people call down dog-
例如，如果一个人要带一只狗出去散步，并且它熟悉皮带脱钩的声音或类似的声音，那么狗进行长而完整的前腿伸展的情况并不少见，人们称之为狗-
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in yoga.
在瑜伽中。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And some people will say that's a remnant of the puppy play stance.
有些人会说这是小狗玩耍姿势的残余。
Again, people say this stuff.
人们又说了这些话。
People are often self-appointed dog experts.
人们常常自封为狗专家。
This is kind of interesting.
这有点有趣。
And I've learned this from researching it online, that the various camps of quote unquote dog experts-
我从网上研究中了解到这一点，各个阵营都引用了狗专家的话——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
disagree vehemently with each other.
彼此强烈不同意。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They write to me saying, "They're evil." "This person is cruel." They blame each other of animal cruelty-
他们写信给我说：“他们很邪恶。” “这个人太残忍了。”他们互相指责对方虐待动物——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for different training tools.
针对不同的训练工具。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We'll talk about that a little bit later.
我们稍后会讨论这个问题。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But dogs will do this down dog type movement-
但狗会做这种下犬式的动作——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
whatever it means, with other dogs, and they'll do it with humans.
不管这对其他狗意味着什么，它们也会对人类这样做。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you think it means the same thing in those two different contexts?
您认为这在这两种不同的上下文中意味着同一件事吗？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
It most probably does.
很可能是这样。
That play bow that you're describing is what's referred to as a meta-signal for play.
您所描述的游戏弓就是所谓的游戏元信号。
So it's typically shown in a play context, and I haven't seen it described, but then again, I'm not a dog owner.
所以它通常出现在游戏环境中，我还没有看到它的描述，但话又说回来，我不是狗的主人。
But I haven't seen it described in the context of let's go for a walk, but certainly in the play context, as far as I know, dogs play a bit differently with humans than they do with other dogs, but they do enjoy playing with humans.
但我还没有看到在“我们去散步”的背景下描述它，但当然在玩耍的背景下，据我所知，狗与人类的玩耍方式与与其他狗的玩耍方式略有不同，但它们确实喜欢与人类玩耍。
And sometimes, I think we humans have a hard time knowing whether what we're seeing is play or aggression because there will be elements from the aggressive repertoire within a play bow.
有时，我认为我们人类很难知道我们所看到的是游戏还是侵略，因为游戏弓中会有侵略性曲目的元素。
But typically, what we can do then is look for what's referred to as MARS, M-A-R-S, so M being the meta signals, so those play bows.
但通常情况下，我们可以做的就是寻找所谓的 MARS、M-A-R-S，所以 M 是元信号，所以这些会演奏弓。
Or in other species, it will be other behaviors that are indicating that I want to play.
或者在其他物种中，会是其他行为表明我想玩。
I know chimpanzees have 30 or 50 different meta signals for play.
我知道黑猩猩有 30 或 50 种不同的游戏元信号。
M-A, A is for activity shift, so we will see different behaviors.
M-A，A代表活动转变，所以我们会看到不同的行为。
They might be chasing.
他们可能正在追赶。
They might be pouncing.
他们可能会猛扑过来。
They might be wrestling, biting each other.
他们可能会摔跤，互相撕咬。
But you'll see these activity shifts, and it's not in the same order as it would be if they were truly fighting.
但你会看到这些活动发生变化，而且它们的顺序与他们真正打斗时的顺序不同。
M-A-R, R is for role reversals, so you'll see that the dogs, if they're of different sizes or different stamina, or how big they are, or how competent fighters they would be, that they'll take turns at winning and losing.
M-A-R，R 代表角色反转，所以你会看到狗，如果它们的体型不同或耐力不同，或者它们有多大，或者它们的战士有多有能力，它们会轮流获胜和失败。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I've seen that.
是的，我见过。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah, because it's not fun playing if you lose all the time.
是的，因为如果你一直输的话，比赛就没有乐趣了。
So in order to keep playing, the bigger dog needs to lose sometimes.
因此，为了继续比赛，大狗有时需要输掉比赛。
So they-
所以他们——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm
嗯
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
...
...
in order to keep this interaction going, that's the way to do that.
为了让这种互动持续下去，这就是这样做的方法。
And the last one, S, is self-handicap.
最后一项，S，是自残。
So the larger dog will self-handicap themselves.
所以体型较大的狗会自我设限。
You might see them doing a tug of war, and the large dog is just standing there and holding the thing, and the small dog is pulling and really trying to get the thing, and the big dog is just standing there doing nothing.
你可能会看到它们在进行拔河比赛，大狗只是站在那里拿着东西，小狗正在拉动并试图抓住东西，而大狗只是站在那里什么也不做。
But then if a human takes over the toy and starts pulling, then the big dog will engage and start showing more of his strength and escalate that behavior.
但如果一个人接管了玩具并开始拉扯，那么大狗就会参与并开始展示更多的力量并升级这种行为。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a beautiful thing when you see animals adjusting their level of vigor in play-
当你看到动物在玩耍中调整它们的活力水平时，这是一件美丽的事情 -
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
so that the play can continue.
以便比赛能够继续进行。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's very sweet.
非常甜。
It speaks to a bigger question, which is do dogs have empathy?
这谈到了一个更大的问题，那就是狗有同理心吗？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Oh, I think so.
哦，我想是的。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
I can't say I've seen any studies on it, but just, yeah.
我不能说我看过任何关于它的研究，但只是，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think-
我认为——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
I think so
我想是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
many dog owners are familiar with when we're grieving-
许多狗主人都熟悉当我们悲伤时——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Hmm
嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a dog will often come closer-
狗经常会靠近——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as opposed to moving further away.
而不是走得更远。
I've seen some incredible moments.
我见过一些令人难以置信的时刻。
We interpret these things, right?
我们解释这些事情，对吗？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We anthropomorphize, but-
我们拟人化，但是——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I had someone in my home years ago who was grieving a death in her family, and Costello came and put a paw on her knee, and it's hard to not interpret that-
几年前，我家里有一个人正在为家人的去世而悲伤，科斯特洛过来将爪子放在她的膝盖上，很难不解释这一点——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as a meaningful moment-
作为一个有意义的时刻——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of empathy.
的同理心。
Who knows what he was experiencing.
谁知道他正在经历什么。
Maybe he was experiencing distress for all I know, but the more pleasant interpretation is that he wanted to extend comfort.
据我所知，也许他正在经历痛苦，但更令人愉快的解释是他想提供安慰。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
I think it makes sense from the evolutionary perspective that social animals who live in a cohesive social group are good at reading each other's emotional state and also good at trying to buffer negative emotions if it's possible to do that.
我认为从进化的角度来看，生活在有凝聚力的社会群体中的社会性动物善于解读彼此的情绪状态，并且如果可能的话，也善于尝试缓冲负面情绪。
And so I would expect it with any of the more cognitively advanced species.
因此，我预计任何认知能力更先进的物种都会出现这种情况。
I would expect some type of empathy.
我期望某种类型的同理心。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。
AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also contains adaptogens.
AG1 是一种维生素矿物质益生菌饮料，还含有适应原。
I started taking AG1 way back in 2012, long before I even knew what a podcast was.
早在 2012 年，我就开始学习 AG1，当时我什至还不知道什么是播客。
I started taking it, and I still take it every single day because it ensures that I meet my quota for daily vitamins and minerals, and it helps make sure that I get enough prebiotics and probiotics to support my gut health.
我开始服用它，并且仍然每天服用，因为它可以确保我满足每日维生素和矿物质的配额，并且有助于确保我获得足够的益生元和益生菌来支持我的肠道健康。
Over the past 10 years, gut health has emerged as something that we realize is important not only for the health of our digestion, but also for our immune system and for the production of neurotransmitters and neuromodulators, things like dopamine and serotonin.
在过去的十年里，我们认识到肠道健康不仅对消化系统的健康很重要，而且对我们的免疫系统以及神经递质和神经调节剂（如多巴胺和血清素）的产生也很重要。
In other words, gut health is critical for proper brain function.
换句话说，肠道健康对于大脑的正常功能至关重要。
Now, of course, I strive to eat healthy whole foods from unprocessed sources for the majority of my nutritional intake.
当然，现在我努力吃来自未加工来源的健康天然食品作为我的大部分营养摄入量。
But there are a number of things in AG1, including specific micronutrients, that are hard or impossible to get from whole foods.
但 AG1 中的许多物质，包括特定的微量营养素，很难或不可能从天然食品中获取。
So by taking AG1 daily, I get the vitamins and minerals that I need, along with the probiotics and prebiotics for gut health, and in turn, brain and immune system health, and the adaptogens and critical micronutrients that are essential for all organs and tissues of the body.
因此，通过每天服用 AG1，我可以获得所需的维生素和矿物质，以及有益于肠道健康、大脑和免疫系统健康的益生菌和益生元，以及对身体所有器官和组织至关重要的适应原和关键微量营养素。
So anytime somebody asks me if they were to only take one supplement, what that supplement should be, I always say AG1, because AG1 supports so many different systems in the brain and body that relate to our mental health, physical health, and performance.
因此，每当有人问我是否只服用一种补充剂时，我总是说 AG1，因为 AG1 支持大脑和身体中与我们的心理健康、身体健康和表现相关的许多不同系统。
If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman。
For this month only, April 2025, AG1 is giving away a free one-month supply of omega-3 fish oil, along with a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2.
仅在 2025 年 4 月这个月，AG1 将免费赠送一个月的 omega-3 鱼油，以及一瓶维生素 D3 加 K2。
As I've highlighted before in this podcast, omega-3 fish oil and vitamin D3 plus K2 have been shown to help with everything from mood and brain health to heart health and healthy hormone production, and much more.
正如我之前在本播客中强调的那样，omega-3 鱼油和维生素 D3 加 K2 已被证明有助于改善从情绪和大脑健康到心脏健康和健康激素产生等各个方面。
Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman to get the free one-month supply of omega-3 fish oil plus a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2 with your subscription.
再次强调，您可以通过 Drinkag1.com/huberman 订阅，免费获得一个月的 omega-3 鱼油以及一瓶维生素 D3 和 K2。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Joovv.
今天的节目也是Joovv给我们带来的。
Joovv makes medical-grade red light therapy devices.
Joovv 生产医疗级红光治疗设备。
Now, if there's one thing that I have consistently emphasized on this podcast, it is the incredible impact that light can have on our biology.
现在，如果我在这个播客中一直强调一件事，那就是光对我们的生物学产生的令人难以置信的影响。
Now, in addition to sunlight, red light and near-infrared light sources have been shown to have positive effects on improving numerous aspects of cellular and organ health, including faster muscle recovery, improved skin health and wound healing, improvements in acne, reduced pain and inflammation, even mitochondrial function, and improving vision itself.
现在，除了阳光之外，红光和近红外光源已被证明对改善细胞和器官健康的许多方面具有积极作用，包括更快的肌肉恢复、改善皮肤健康和伤口愈合、改善痤疮、减少疼痛和炎症，甚至线粒体功能，以及改善视力本身。
What sets Joovv lights apart and why they're my preferred red light therapy device is that they use clinically proven wavelengths, meaning specific wavelengths of red light and near-infrared light in combination to trigger the optimal cellular adaptations.
Joovv 灯的与众不同之处以及它们成为我首选红光治疗设备的原因在于它们使用经过临床验证的波长，这意味着特定波长的红光和近红外光相结合可以触发最佳的细胞适应。
Personally, I use the Joovv whole body panel about three to four times a week, and I use the Joovv handheld light both at home and when I travel.
就我个人而言，我每周大约使用 Joovv 全身面板三到四次，在家和旅行时我都会使用 Joovv 手持灯。
If you'd like to try Joovv, you can go to Joovv, spelled J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Joovv，可以访问 Joovv，拼写为 J-O-O-V-V，.com/huberman。
Joovv is offering an exclusive discount to all Huberman Lab listeners with up to $400 off Joovv products.
Joovv 为所有 Huberman Lab 听众提供独家折扣，Joovv 产品最高可享受 400 美元的折扣。
Again, that's Joovv, spelled J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman to get up to $400 off.
同样，这是 Joovv，拼写为 J-O-O-V-V，.com/huberman 最高可享受 400 美元折扣。
I've always been delighted and curious about the fact that if two animals of the same species both receive food or a treat, it seems, I don't know, but it seems that they are paying attention to how much treat the other is getting.
我一直对这样一个事实感到高兴和好奇：如果同一物种的两只动物都收到食物或款待，似乎，我不知道，但它们似乎正在关注对方得到了多少款待。
And as a sibling, I have an older sister who I get along very well with and always have.
作为兄弟姐妹，我有一个姐姐，我一直和她相处得很好。
But when we were kids, I'll never forget if there was a treat like a milkshake or something, she would point out that she had slightly more than I did.
但当我们还是孩子的时候，我永远不会忘记如果有像奶昔之类的东西，她会指出她比我多一点。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If there was a slice of cake or something, it was as much as we would look at the slice of cake being served to us, we were looking to see how much the other one got.
如果有一块蛋糕或其他东西，我们会看提供给我们的那块蛋糕，我们会看看另一块蛋糕得到了多少钱。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And this was a reflexive thing.
这是一个反射性的事情。
And we're not competitive in any dimension really.
我们在任何方面都没有竞争力。
We've always respected each other's strengths and weaknesses-
我们一直尊重彼此的优点和缺点-
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in a way that's very complementary.
在某种程度上这是非常互补的。
But when it comes to treats-
但说到款待——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
humans and dogs pay a lot of attention-
人类和狗都非常关注——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Oh, yeah
哦，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to who's getting what.
谁得到什么。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Fairness.
公平。
Yeah.
是的。
There was this experiment done on capuchin monkeys by Frans de Waal and his team.
弗朗斯·德瓦尔和他的团队在卷尾猴身上进行了这项实验。
And apparently, they did it and they published a paper on it and nobody read it.
显然，他们做到了，并发表了一篇论文，但没有人读。
And then a decade later, in preparation for a presentation, they redid some of the experiment and filmed it, and he shared that on the presentation.
十年后，在准备演示时，他们重新做了一些实验并拍摄了它，他在演示中分享了这一点。
I don't know if you've seen it.
不知道你有没有看过。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
But essentially, it's two capuchin monkeys and they're next to one another so they can each see what the other is getting, and they're asked to do a task.
但本质上，它是两只卷尾猴，它们彼此相邻，这样它们就可以看到对方正在得到什么，并且它们被要求执行一项任务。
The researcher hands them a rock and they hand it back to the researcher, and then they get a reinforcer, so a treat as payment for that behavior.
研究人员递给他们一块石头，他们把它还给研究人员，然后他们得到一个强化物，所以这是对这种行为的报酬。
And so the first monkey gets a piece of cucumber and he's happy.
所以第一只猴子得到了一块黄瓜，他很高兴。
He eats that cucumber.
他吃了那根黄瓜。
And then the researcher turns towards the second monkey and requests the same behavior, gets the same behavior, and feeds that animal a grape.
然后研究人员转向第二只猴子并要求其做出相同的行为，得到相同的行为，并给该动物喂葡萄。
And capuchins are not too enthusiastic about cucumbers, but they really love grapes.
而且卷尾猴对黄瓜不太热衷，但它们却很喜欢葡萄。
So when she then turns back to the first monkey again and repeats the behavior and again feeds that one a cucumber that he was happy to eat 30 seconds ago, he actually throws a tantrum and throws it back at the researcher, sort of going, "Uh, I saw that you fed the other guy a grape." And the audience is laughing.
因此，当她再次转向第一只猴子并重复该行为并再次喂那一只猴子 30 秒前他很高兴吃的黄瓜时，他实际上发脾气并将其扔回给研究人员，有点像，“呃，我看到你给另一只猴子喂了一颗葡萄。”观众在笑。
So it's like, I think we all recognize that situation that we take affront to somebody else getting paid better for The same quality of work.
所以，我想我们都认识到这样一种情况，即我们会冒犯其他人因同样的工作质量而获得更高的报酬。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I'm always interested in these studies that every few years something-- I didn't know that one, so thank you for sharing that, where there's something about resource allocation that's revealed.
是的，我一直对这些研究很感兴趣，每隔几年就会有一些研究——我不知道那个，所以谢谢你分享，其中揭示了一些关于资源分配的东西。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then for every one of those, there will be a study that shows, for instance, and I'm not going to get the details right here, but that crows will teach each other ways to open boxes so that another-
然后，对于其中的每一个，都会有一项研究表明，例如，我不会在这里提供详细信息，但乌鸦会互相教导如何打开盒子，以便另一个-
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
one can get food-
人们可以获得食物——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
even if they don't have access to that food.
即使他们无法获得这些食物。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just, it seems like an act of altruism.
只是，这似乎是一种利他行为。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So we'll see fairness, we'll see altruism.
所以我们会看到公平，我们会看到利他主义。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Oh, yes.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A very different picture than this whole notion of dominance hierarchies in every member of a species is just trying to get the most that they possibly can-
与物种中每个成员的统治等级观念完全不同的情况是，他们只是试图获得尽可能多的东西——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
even at the expense of others.
甚至以牺牲他人为代价。
It's beautiful in a way, and we, again, have to be careful not to anthropomorphize, to not assume that members of a species are doing this because they're benevolent.
它在某种程度上是美丽的，我们必须再次小心，不要将其拟人化，不要假设某个物种的成员这样做是因为他们是仁慈的。
That's a nice-- I like that interpretation.
这是一个很好的——我喜欢这个解释。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But maybe as you pointed out before, that having a happy group makes for more happiness for oneself.
但也许正如你之前指出的那样，拥有一个快乐的团体会给自己带来更多的快乐。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
I think if the group is doing well, then everybody's better off.
我认为如果团队表现良好，那么每个人都会过得更好。
So we used to think that there was just sort of individual selection, but there is a certain amount of group selection also.
所以我们过去认为只有个人选择，但也有一定数量的群体选择。
The individual selection is stronger, but certainly if there's a group that collaborates better, that will do better than the group that isn't collaborating as well.
个人选择更强，但如果有一个团队合作得更好，那肯定会比不合作的团队做得更好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
And it's interesting, you've mentioned a few times now the risk of anthropomorphism.
有趣的是，你已经多次提到了拟人化的风险。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
And I think that if we look at that as a sort of a continuum from anthropomorphism, which we might then define as thinking that animals are just the same as humans, it's only just that they have some fur, so they're a bit different.
我认为，如果我们将其视为拟人论的一种连续体，那么我们可以将其定义为认为动物与人类一样，只是它们有一些皮毛，所以它们有点不同。
But more or less the same.
但或多或少是一样的。
And on the other side is what we might refer to as anthropodenial.
另一方面就是我们所说的人类化。
That was a term coined also by Frans de Waal, the one with the capuchin experiment, where we don't recognize that, in fact, there are commonalities between humans and other animal species.
这个术语也是由弗朗斯·德瓦尔（Frans de Waal）创造的，他在卷尾猴实验中创造了这个术语，我们没有意识到，事实上，人类和其他动物物种之间存在共性。
And I think that in our sort of fear of anthropomorphism, we have fallen into anthropodenial, and I think that the answer is probably somewhere in the middle, that we do share lots of commonalities with animals.
我认为，由于我们对拟人化的恐惧，我们已经陷入了拟人化，我认为答案可能在中间的某个地方，我们确实与动物有很多共同点。
I think that, for instance, even though our perception of the world might be really different, how we process that information and the types of emotional and mood responses, changes in mood that we get in response to the environment are very much the same.
例如，我认为，尽管我们对世界的看法可能确实不同，但我们处理信息的方式以及情绪和情绪反应的类型以及我们对环境做出反应的情绪变化却非常相似。
Although it will be different stimuli that different animal species pay attention to, that are more or less relevant to them, depending on which species it is.
尽管不同的动物物种所关注的刺激会有所不同，但或多或少与它们相关，具体取决于其物种。
But I think that we've fallen into-- We've so avoided this topic of anthropomorphism, we've been so afraid of it that we've fallen into the other trap, which is sort of denying that they have anything to do with us.
但我认为我们已经陷入了——我们如此回避拟人化这个话题，我们如此害怕它，以至于我们陷入了另一个陷阱，那就是否认它们与我们有任何关系。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's talk about a species that can be divisive.
让我们来谈谈一个可能分裂的物种。
Cats.
猫。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My sister has cats, and I don't mind them.
我姐姐养了猫，我不介意它们。
I can't say I gravitate toward them.
我不能说我被他们所吸引。
But I don't dislike them.
但我并不讨厌他们。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You do own a cat.
你确实拥有一只猫。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you're an animal ethologist.
你是一位动物行为学家。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Tell us about cats from the perspective of an animal ethologist.
从动物行为学家的角度告诉我们关于猫的事情。
When you look at a cat, what are you looking for to tell you something about whether or not it's a friendly cat?
当你看着一只猫时，你想通过什么来判断它是否是一只友善的猫？
Obviously, if its hair's standing up on its back and it's arching and it's hissing, that's obvious.
显然，如果它的毛发在背上竖起，呈拱形并且发出嘶嘶声，那就很明显了。
But what are you looking at in the context of the way that cats evolved and their species in general?
但是，在猫的进化方式及其总体物种的背景下，您所看到的是什么？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm.
嗯。
So the common house cat that we have today as a pet evolved as a solitary hunter, but that aggregates in social groups.
因此，我们今天作为宠物饲养的普通家猫进化为独居猎人，但聚集在社会群体中。
Loose social groups, so they sort of hang out together, but it's not this really cohesive group.
松散的社会群体，所以他们有点在一起闲逛，但这并不是一个真正有凝聚力的群体。
And they hunt on their own, so they'll eat on their own also.
他们自己狩猎，所以他们也会自己吃饭。
And me as an ethologist, what I tend to do when I look at an animal species is I look at three things.
作为一名行为学家，当我研究一个动物物种时，我倾向于做的是三件事。
I look at their social environment.
我看看他们的社会环境。
So typically with cats, I would then say that if they are raised well, so they've had the opportunity of spending enough time with mom.
因此，对于猫来说，我通常会说，如果它们养得好，那么它们就有机会与妈妈共度足够的时间。
Typically, it should be up to 14 weeks, which I think that we see that in Sweden nowadays.
通常情况下，应该长达 14 周，我认为现在在瑞典我们也看到了这一点。
I don't know how it is here in the US, but that seems to be long enough for the animal to actually learn how to be a cat, so that they don't get too emotionally disturbed by the separation once we wean them and sort of put them in a new environment.
我不知道美国的情况如何，但这似乎足够长的时间让动物真正学会如何成为一只猫，这样一旦我们给它们断奶并将它们放在一个新的环境中，它们就不会因分离而在情感上受到太大干扰。
So just looking at the social bit is one thing that I do.
因此，只关注社交方面是我所做的一件事。
The first thing that I do.
我做的第一件事。
The second thing that I do is I look at how do they get food.
我做的第二件事是研究他们如何获取食物。
So again, cats are solitary hunters, so I would look into ways of-- As opposed to dogs, cats typically retain the whole hunting sequence.
再说一次，猫是孤独的猎人，所以我会研究一些方法——与狗相反，猫通常保留整个狩猎序列。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Sometimes the killing bite isn't quite there, but certainly the grab bite.
有时，杀戮的咬合并不完全存在，但肯定是抓咬。
And the fact that some cats will, if it's an outdoor cat, that they might bring their prey back home is, to me, it's not that they want to gift you with their kill, but rather that they feel safe in-- So they're simply bringing their prey to a place where they feel safe.
事实上，有些猫，如果是户外猫，它们可能会把猎物带回家，对我来说，这并不是它们想把猎物送给你，而是它们感到安全——所以它们只是把猎物带到它们感到安全的地方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's not a gift.
所以这不是礼物。
We can put that one to rest.
我们可以让那个人安息了。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
I would not call that a gift, no.
我不会称其为礼物，不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I had a girlfriend in graduate school, and her cat would catch these very large mice and put them in our shoes.
我有一个在读研究生的女朋友，她的猫会抓住这些非常大的老鼠，然后把它们放在我们的鞋子里。
At night.
晚上。
It was dreadful.
太可怕了。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Would the cat put them in the shoes or would the mice hide in the shoes?
猫会把它们放在鞋子里还是老鼠会藏在鞋子里？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, they were dead when we found them.
好吧，当我们发现他们时，他们已经死了。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I'm assuming that-
所以我假设-
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
The cat put them there
猫把它们放在那里
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the cat would put them in the shoes.
猫会把它们放在鞋子里。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The cat also loved to retrieve tinfoil balls, little tinfoil balls.
猫还喜欢捡锡纸球，小锡纸球。
I've never seen a cat retrieve.
我从来没有见过猫捡回东西。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
At first I didn't-
起初我并没有——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
They can learn that
他们可以了解到
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I wasn't too enthusiastic about the cat, and then I developed a really close relationship with it.
我对那只猫不太感兴趣，后来我和它建立了非常亲密的关系。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
At least from my side, I thought-
至少从我这边来看，我认为——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it was a close relationship.
这是一种密切的关系。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And he would catch mice, put them in our shoes at night while we slept.
晚上我们睡觉的时候，他会抓老鼠，把它们放进我们的鞋子里。
It was pretty unpleasant.
这是相当不愉快的。
You had to check your shoes in the morning.
早上你必须检查你的鞋子。
So those weren't gifts.
所以那些不是礼物。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
I would not assume that they were gifts, no.
我不会认为它们是礼物，不是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
From what I know, and cats will sort of bring back what they catch to a place where they feel safe.
据我所知，猫会把它们捕获的东西带回它们感到安全的地方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
And then they often lose interest if it's not moving anymore.
如果它不再移动，他们通常会失去兴趣。
So, and if obviously if your cat or that cat killed the mice, that cat had progressed to the actual killing bite.
所以，很明显，如果你的猫或那只猫杀死了老鼠，那么那只猫已经发展到了真正的咬人致死阶段。
Many cats don't do that.
许多猫不这样做。
They only have the grab bite.
他们只有抓咬。
So they'll just let the little rodent go to run off.
所以他们只会让这只小啮齿动物跑掉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've seen that where they'll play with them, right?
我见过他们会和他们一起玩的地方，对吗？
They'll-
他们会——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So they'll let it go, and if the mouse is still, they can actually just sort of escape attention because the cat might grow bored and walk away.
所以他们会放手，如果老鼠不动，他们实际上可以逃避注意，因为猫可能会感到无聊并走开。
But the moment they start moving again, then they're sort of restarting that whole predatory sequence again.
但当它们再次开始移动时，它们就又重新开始了整个掠夺过程。
But back to your question about how to interact with cats or how to read them.
但回到你关于如何与猫互动或如何阅读它们的问题。
So that would be the third thing that I'm looking at, is how do the animal species in front of me, how do they respond to perceived threat?
所以这将是我要关注的第三件事，是我面前的动物物种如何，它们如何应对感知到的威胁？
And I'm saying perceived threat here because sometimes we are well-intended, we're like, "Hi," and we want to hug them because we're primates, and they really don't like that.
我在这里说的是感知到的威胁，因为有时我们是善意的，我们会说“嗨”，我们想拥抱他们，因为我们是灵长类动物，而他们真的不喜欢这样。
So they will respond to us as if we were a predator.
所以他们会对我们做出反应，就好像我们是掠食者一样。
And, I think that, again, comes down very much to the types of interactions, social interactions, the type of learning that the animal has had when they're really young.
而且，我认为，这在很大程度上取决于动物在年轻时所进行的互动、社交互动和学习类型。
So for instance, there's a study showing that if you handle young kittens between the ages of two and eight weeks for at least an hour a day, and when I say handle, I just mean that sort of interact with them and play and have them sort of on your lap and so on.
举例来说，有一项研究表明，如果你每天至少照顾两到八周大的小猫，当我说照顾时，我只是指与它们互动、玩耍、让它们放在你的腿上等等。
They will become very social as adults.
成年后他们会变得非常社交。
So they will be the type of cat that will jump up into your lap and fall asleep purring.
所以它们会是那种会跳到你腿上，咕噜咕噜地睡着的猫。
If you interact with that young kitten less than 15 minutes a day, they won't be fearful of humans, but they'll be more like walking up to you and saying hi, and then walking away.
如果你每天与那只小猫的互动时间少于 15 分钟，它们就不会害怕人类，但它们会更像是走到你跟前打个招呼，然后走开。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The aloof cat.
孤僻的猫。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
The aloof cat.
孤僻的猫。
Yeah.
是的。
So, I think the early life experiences can really shape the type of temperament, if you will, or how vigorously animals respond to changes in the environment.
所以，我认为早期的生活经历确实可以塑造气质类型（如果你愿意的话），或者动物对环境变化的反应有多强烈。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What is this behavior of bumping, where the cat bumps its head against you or your arm?
猫用头撞你或你的手臂，这种碰撞行为是什么？
Is it to spread smell?
是为了散发气味吗？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I would say that is scent marking.
我想说那是气味标记。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, and when they're scent marking you-
所以，当它们用气味标记你时——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
why are they scent marking?
他们为什么要标记气味？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
I would think that it's something you do in your group.
我认为这是你在团队中所做的事情。
You do mutual scent marking, which means that everybody in the group smells more or less the same.
你们互相做气味标记，这意味着小组中的每个人闻起来或多或少都是一样的。
So it's a way of sort of greeting and incorporating the others in the group.
所以这是一种问候方式，也是将其他人融入团队的一种方式。
So there'll be a lot of scent exchange within this type of species living in a group.
因此，生活在群体中的这类物种之间会有大量的气味交换。
That would be my guess as to why they do that.
这就是我对他们为什么这样做的猜测。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So is scent marking about territory as well?
那么气味标记也与领地有关吗？
Like if a cat scent marks in corners and-
就像猫的气味在角落里留下痕迹一样——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Oh, yeah
哦，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is that sort of-
是那种-
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
But that's different.
但那是不同的。
That's typically not the-- Because they have multiple scent glands in the face, and one of them is used to scent mark sort of the inner territory, and this is where they feel really safe.
这通常不是——因为它们的脸上有多个气味腺，其中一个用来标记内部区域的气味，这是它们感到真正安全的地方。
And then they usually have this urine scent marking, which is in the outskirts of the territory.
然后他们通常会有这种尿液气味标记，位于领地的郊区。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
And you might see this if, for instance, you have an indoor cat and they start peeing, and you bring out a piece of paper and a layout of your house or apartment, and you start putting a little ring to where you find the pee.
例如，如果你有一只室内猫，它们开始撒尿，你拿出一张纸和你的房子或公寓的布局，然后开始在你发现撒尿的地方放一个小环，你可能会看到这一点。
That will give you a lot of information, because if it's a territorial thing, it will typically be at the edges, at the windows or doors.
这将为您提供大量信息，因为如果它是一个领域性的东西，它通常会在边缘、窗户或门处。
If it's an elimination problem that the cat has, sort of maybe perhaps it hurts when he pees, so then he learns to associate pain with going in the box.
如果猫有排便问题，那么它撒尿时可能会感到疼痛，所以它会学会将疼痛与进入盒子联系起来。
And so the box starts representing painful experiences, so he'll start going outside of the box.
所以这个盒子开始代表痛苦的经历，所以他会开始走出盒子。
But that type of behavior will be seen in that context instead.
但这种行为将会在这种情况下出现。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
So if your cat is urinating inside, you now have an experiment to run.
因此，如果你的猫在里面小便，你现在就可以进行一个实验。
The use of a litter box-
垃圾箱的使用——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is a pretty interesting one to me.
对我来说是一个非常有趣的问题。
It's not one I spend a lot of time thinking about.
这不是我花很多时间思考的问题。
But if you sort of step back and you say, okay, here's this animal that we've domesticated.
但如果你退一步说，好吧，这是我们驯化的动物。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it readily learns how to cover its waste.
而且它很容易学会如何掩盖其废物。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is very different than a dog-
这和狗有很大不同——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which can be trained to withhold until you go out on a walk.
可以训练它克制住，直到你出去散步。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's basically the two different strategies there.
这基本上是两种不同的策略。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I don't know what it is if you own a monkey, or something else, but what is it about the covering of waste behavior?
我不知道如果你拥有一只猴子或其他什么东西，那么掩盖浪费行为又是什么？
Is that something in cats?
这是猫身上的东西吗？
Is that a natural behavior they do in the wild?
这是它们在野外的自然行为吗？
And if they roam, why do they bother?
如果他们漫游，他们为什么还要打扰呢？
Is it And then sort of tacked to this is that with dogs, oftentimes after they eliminate waste, they'll step away from it and kick dirt in the general direction.
然后，对狗来说，通常在排泄废物后，他们会走开并朝大方向踢土。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I've heard it interpreted two ways.
我听说它有两种解释。
One is that they're trying to spread scent, and the other is that they're trying to cover waste.
一是他们试图传播气味，二是他们试图掩盖废物。
So again, this is why I was interested in talking to an animal ethologist-
再说一遍，这就是为什么我有兴趣与动物行为学家交谈 -
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as opposed to a pet behavioral trainer.
与宠物行为训练师相反。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
I'm also interested in that, but I think we have to, again, acknowledge that much of the interpretation that we have about animals' behavior is just human interpretation.
我对此也很感兴趣，但我认为我们必须再次承认，我们对动物行为的大部分解释只是人类的解释。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Certainly.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what is this covering of waste?
那么这个废物覆盖物是什么？
Do we know what it's for in the wild in cats?
我们知道它在野外对猫有什么作用吗？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
The covering of waste is a way to sort of reduce the risk of infection.
覆盖废物是降低感染风险的一种方法。
I would assume that they also don't eliminate close to where they eat.
我认为他们也不会在吃饭的地方附近排便。
So if we have a cat in our house, we shouldn't have the litter box next to the food, which I wish I had known when I had my first cat 20 years ago, because she had just that very setup with the food right next to the litter box.
所以，如果我们家里养了一只猫，我们就不应该把猫砂盆放在食物旁边，我希望 20 年前我养第一只猫时就知道这一点，因为她就是把食物放在猫砂盆旁边。
And I would also assume that the behavior of dogs when they sort of kick at their poop typically, right, not pee, that it's a way of spreading scent.
我还假设狗踢便便时的行为通常是，对，不是撒尿，这是一种传播气味的方式。
Because if it were covering scent, the behavior would look very different, I think.
因为我认为，如果它覆盖气味，行为看起来会非常不同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
But I haven't seen any scientific study on that topic.
但我还没有看到任何关于这个主题的科学研究。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, so cat owners take note.
好吧，所以猫主人要注意了。
Separate the food from the litter box by-
将食物与垃圾箱分开：
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
by some distance.
一定距离。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I was always somewhat surprised, although less so over time, how much determination and effort my bulldog would put into peeing on things-
我总是有点惊讶，尽管随着时间的推移，我的斗牛犬会投入多少决心和努力在东西上撒尿，但随着时间的推移，这种情况逐渐减少——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
on walks.
散步时。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I feel like it was one of his great joys in life.
我觉得这是他人生中最大的乐趣之一。
There I go again-
我又来了——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
anthropomorphizing, but-
拟人化，但是——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to smell something and then pee there.
闻一些东西然后在那里撒尿。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He seemed to have an endless supply of urine for this.
为此，他似乎有源源不断的尿液。
It was really remarkable.
这真的很了不起。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As a scientist and someone who loves dogs and loved him more than words, I just was like, "This is amazing."
作为一名科学家和一个热爱狗的人，对它的爱胜过言语，我只是想，“这太棒了。”
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He loves this behavior.
他喜欢这种行为。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And he's also reading the pee mail from the other dogs-
他还阅读其他狗发来的小便邮件——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
...
...
in the neighborhood.
在附近。
So the urine tells a lot of information to the other animals.
所以尿液向其他动物传达了很多信息。
It tells what gender, what reproductive state, perhaps also something about the animal's emotional state or mental state.
它告诉我们什么性别，什么繁殖状态，也许还告诉我们动物的情绪状态或精神状态。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
So I wouldn't hesitate to say that was one of the joys of life for dogs.
所以我会毫不犹豫地说这是狗生活的乐趣之一。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
After all, that's how they communicate.
毕竟，这就是他们沟通的方式。
And they spend a lot of time doing it, and they're willing to work to get access to that opportunity.
他们花了很多时间来做这件事，并且愿意努力获得这个机会。
So absolutely, I would think that it gives them positive emotional experiences doing that.
所以绝对，我认为这样做会给他们带来积极的情感体验。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So there's some innate drive in dogs that seems to read the emotional and hormonal states of other dogs that have been there.
因此，狗有一些与生俱来的驱动力，似乎可以解读其他狗的情绪和荷尔蒙状态。
To me, it felt like their form of social media.
对我来说，这感觉就像他们的社交媒体形式。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like I'm going to post here.
就像我要在这里发帖一样。
What are other people posting here?
其他人在这里发布什么？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's going on?
发生什么事了？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Sure.
当然。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Clearly there's some brain real estate devoted to this behavior.
显然，大脑中有一些区域专门用于这种行为。
I'm not being facetious.
我不是在开玩笑。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You look at a human brain, 40% of that real estate is for vision.
你看一下人脑，40% 的空间用于视觉。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Another 40%, it's mixed in there with other stuff, is for motor behavior.
另外 40% 与其他东西混合在一起，用于运动行为。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We have neural real estate for smelling and certainly for touch.
我们有嗅觉和触觉的神经空间。
But even if you're a massage therapist or you do touch-based work, even if you're a braille reader, the amount of neural real estate for these other things is vastly larger, except for the blind person, where the visual stuff is taken over by the tactile stuff-
但即使你是按摩治疗师或从事基于触摸的工作，即使你是盲文阅读器，这些其他事物的神经空间也要大得多，但盲人除外，因为盲人的视觉内容被触觉内容所取代——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and auditory.
和听觉。
So amount of real estate correlates.
所以房地产的数量是相关的。
So when I see a behavior that's like, this is one of the main things dogs do.
所以当我看到这样的行为时，这是狗所做的主要事情之一。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
It's pretty striking.
这非常引人注目。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So dogs descended from, they were domesticated from wolves, correctly?
那么狗是狼的后裔，是由狼驯化的，对吗？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Did that happen at independent locations around the Earth?
这是否发生在地球周围的独立地点？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Don't really know the answer to that question.
真的不知道这个问题的答案。
But it seems that they domesticated themselves, that it was sort of wolves that started hanging out next to human habitation, and that it was sort of the least fearful and the sort of most explorative wolves that dared do this.
但它们似乎已经驯化了自己，就像狼一样开始在人类居住地附近闲逛，而且是最不害怕、最具探索性的狼，敢于这样做。
So it wasn't that we caught wolves and said, "Aha, I'm going to breed you now," but it was rather that it was like a symbiotic relationship that developed over time.
所以，我们并不是抓到狼后说：“啊哈，我现在要养育你了。”而是说，这就像一种随着时间的推移而发展起来的共生关系。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
I don't know of any other species that does that, except maybe certain fish or dolphins that follow fishing boats so they can get some of the catch.
我不知道有任何其他物种会这样做，除了某些跟随渔船以便获得一些渔获的鱼或海豚。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But that's different because I see these Instagram videos of an otter jumping on a kayak, and there's some interaction-
但这是不同的，因为我在 Instagram 上看到了水獭在皮划艇上跳跃的视频，并且有一些互动 -
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that's regular, that the person goes out on their kayak.
这是很常见的，这个人划着皮划艇出去。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They interact with this otter.
他们与这只水獭互动。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So animals will do this, but usually there's some sort of food.
所以动物会这样做，但通常有某种食物。
It just sounds like food payoff is-
听起来食物的回报是——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and safety is really the key.
安全确实是关键。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Does that mean that animals at a very basic level are looking to optimize food intake and safety?
这是否意味着动物在非常基础的层面上正在寻求优化食物摄入和安全？
And what does that tell us about zoos?
关于动物园，这告诉我们什么？
I personally have a pretty strong visceral reaction to zoos that have large carnivores.
我个人对拥有大型食肉动物的动物园有非常强烈的本能反应。
I realize we could have a discussion about elephants, too, but I feel like large carnivores housed in zoos creates some issues for me.
我意识到我们也可以讨论大象，但我觉得动物园里的大型食肉动物给我带来了一些问题。
I won't go into what this is.
我不会深究这是什么。
But I also hear that zoos have positive breeding programs, endangered species protection programs.
但我也听说动物园有积极的繁殖计划、濒危物种保护计划。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's your take on zoos?
你对动物园有什么看法？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
When we talk about zoos, it's perhaps good to talk about the evolution of zoos, because back in the day, like 150 years ago, it used to be more or less a menagerie, that here's a lion, and here's an elephant, and here's a zebra, and they were all in little small cages, and the only thing that you did was see the animal, really.
当我们谈论动物园时，谈论动物园的演变也许是件好事，因为在过去，比如 150 年前，它或多或少曾经是一个动物园，这里有一只狮子，这里有一只大象，这里有一只斑马，它们都在小小的笼子里，你唯一做的就是看到动物，真的。
Zoos today tend to have the purpose of doing a lot of conservation work.
如今，动物园的目的往往是做大量的保护工作。
So there's what's referred to as in situ conservation, where you work to preserve wild habitats and creating national parks, et cetera, and giving the opportunities for reintroduction of species and so on.
因此，这就是所谓的就地保护，即努力保护野生栖息地并创建国家公园等，并为重新引入物种等提供机会。
And there's ex situ conservation, which is then housing those animal species that are threatened with extinction in an environment.
还有迁地保护，即安置那些在环境中面临灭绝威胁的动物物种。
And ideally, that environment should then be good enough to promote species typical behavior and so on.
理想情况下，该环境应该足以促进物种的典型行为等。
So I'm conflicted.
所以我很矛盾。
I think that many zoos are doing a lot of good in this effort, and also educating the public.
我认为许多动物园在这方面做了很多好事，并教育了公众。
And I think that many people who go to zoos, that might awaken in them an interest in animals, which I think is a good thing, that we care about animals, but also that sometimes the housing isn't optimal.
我认为很多人去动物园，这可能会唤醒他们对动物的兴趣，我认为这是一件好事，我们关心动物，但有时住房也不是最佳的。
And certainly, some species are a lot more difficult to keep in captivity compared to others.
当然，与其他物种相比，某些物种的圈养难度要大得多。
So polar bears are really difficult to keep because they're ranging carnivores.
所以北极熊确实很难饲养，因为它们是食肉动物。
They walk miles and miles and miles, and it's really difficult to provide those species specific opportunities in captivity compared to other carnivores who have more of a different type of approach to predation.
它们步行数英里、数英里、数英里，与其他采用不同类型捕食方法的食肉动物相比，在圈养条件下为这些物种提供特定的机会确实很困难。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One of the things that really turned me on to just how more sophisticated cat species are than I ever assumed was something that happened when I was a postdoc, also at Stanford.
真正让我意识到猫科动物比我想象的更加复杂的事情之一是我还是斯坦福大学博士后时发生的事情。
I was a member of the San Francisco Zoo.
我是旧金山动物园的成员。
The San Francisco Zoo is an outdoor zoo by comparison to most other zoos I've been to, and I haven't been to that many.
与我去过的大多数其他动物园相比，旧金山动物园是一个室外动物园，而且我没去过那么多。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it's a pretty nice landscape.
但这确实是一道非常漂亮的风景线。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's an outdoor lemur.
有一只户外狐猴。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I call it an exhibit, but-
我称之为展览，但是——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
an indoor outdoor lemur thing that's really amazing.
室内室外的狐猴真是太神奇了。
There's some giraffes, all this.
有一些长颈鹿，所有这些。
Well, around the time when I was a postdoc, I'll just briefly tell this story, I was at the movies in San Francisco, and I stepped out to get something to drink, and the kid behind the counter said that a tiger escaped from the San Francisco Zoo and is killing people.
好吧，当我还是一名博士后的时候，我简单地讲一下这个故事，我在旧金山看电影，我出去买点东西喝，柜台后面的孩子说一只老虎从旧金山动物园逃走了，正在杀人。
And I thought, "What?
我想：“什么？
That's crazy." It turns out that was only partially true.
这太疯狂了。”事实证明这只是部分正确。
What had happened is there was a tiger there, Tatiana.
发生的事情是那里有一只老虎，塔蒂亚娜。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They used to have these moats around the tiger enclosure, and it was very close to Christmas.
他们过去在老虎围栏周围有这些护城河，而且当时正值圣诞节。
People can look this up and get the details.
人们可以查一下并获取详细信息。
And there were a couple of kids who were throwing either pine cones or throwing something at the tigers.
有几个孩子要么向老虎扔松果，要么向老虎扔东西。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay?
好吧？
The zoo was near shutting down.
动物园濒临关闭。
Tatiana either ran up or jumped the moat, I don't know how she did it, got out, and moved through the crowd.
塔蒂亚娜要么跑上去，要么跳过护城河，我不知道她是怎么做到的，从车里出来，穿过人群。
This is, to me, the interesting part.
对我来说，这是有趣的部分。
Moved through the crowd, completely ignoring most of the people that were around, centered in on and killed one of the kids.
穿过人群，完全无视周围的大多数人，集中杀死了其中一个孩子。
Then moved to the second kid, worked him pretty well.
然后转移到第二个孩子，他工作得很好。
The authorities showed up, killed Tatiana.
当局出现并杀死了塔蒂亚娜。
This opened up a whole discussion in the zoo community, raised a lot of complicated questions about enclosures, et cetera.
这在动物园社区引发了一场全面的讨论，提出了许多有关围栏等的复杂问题。
The enclosures there, by the way, now are very different.
顺便说一句，那里的围栏现在已经非常不同了。
They have these high glass-
他们有这些高玻璃-
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
I see
我明白了
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as well.
以及。
And of course, the ending was sad for everybody.
当然，结局对每个人来说都是悲伤的。
I took a break from my membership there.
我从那里的会员资格中休息了一会儿。
I reactivated it a few years later.
几年后我重新激活了它。
That tiger obviously is gone.
那只老虎显然已经消失了。
But I still am conflicted about this whole picture.
但我对整个情况仍然感到矛盾。
What's interesting to me is the intentionality of the tiger.
我感兴趣的是老虎的意图。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So this was not a bloodthirsty tiger-
所以这并不是一只嗜血的老虎——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
No, no
不，不
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that just wanted to kill humans-
只是想杀死人类——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
No, no
不，不
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or eat humans.
或吃人。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
No, no.
不，不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was those two humans-
正是那两个人类——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that pissed her off.
这让她很生气。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And those two humans were going to pay.
那两个人就要付出代价。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they paid.
他们付了钱。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The family sued the zoo, and then it was a whole thing.
这家人起诉了动物园，然后事情就闹大了。
I don't know how it ended up with the lawsuit, but it was a whole thing.
我不知道这起诉讼是如何结束的，但这是一整件事。
So people can look this up online.
所以人们可以在网上查到这一点。
When you hear that, that a tiger did that, as opposed to just going into a frenzy the way humans sometimes go into a frenzy, attacking whoever and as many people as possible, what do you think?
当你听到老虎这样做时，而不是像人类有时那样陷入疯狂，攻击尽可能多的人和尽可能多的人，你怎么看？
What does it tell us about tigers and their consciousness?
它告诉我们有关老虎及其意识的什么信息？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
I think we often don't give animals enough credit.
我认为我们常常没有给予动物足够的信任。
To me, it's not surprising that she experienced something really unpleasant, that she came to associate with two individuals, and that generated a negative emotional state and aggressive behavior that she then carried out, directed towards those two people.
对我来说，毫不奇怪的是，她经历了一些非常不愉快的事情，她开始与两个人交往，这产生了一种消极的情绪状态和攻击行为，然后她针对这两个人进行了攻击。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Does it surprise you how directed it was?
它的定向程度让您感到惊讶吗？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As opposed to just...
相对于仅仅...
There were plenty of people around that were an easier kill.
周围有很多人，杀起来更容易。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
I would think that a fearful animal might lash out at anyone, but an animal that is angry tends to be more premeditated in a way.
我认为害怕的动物可能会攻击任何人，但愤怒的动物在某种程度上往往更有预谋。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Calculated.
计算出来了。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Calculated in a way.
以某种方式计算。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
So I would expect that if you had scared the tiger, she might show defensive aggression, which is just lashing out at whoever is closest.
所以我预计，如果你吓到了老虎，她可能会表现出防御性攻击，即猛烈攻击最接近的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
But this was offensive aggression, and so that is premeditated.
但这是进攻性侵略，因此是有预谋的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。
Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.
去年，在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我成为了 Function 成员。
Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health.
Function 提供 100 多项高级实验室测试，为您提供整个身体健康状况的关键快照。
This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more.
此快照为您提供有关心脏健康、激素健康、免疫功能、营养水平等方面的见解。
They've also recently added tests for toxins, such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics, and tests for PFAS, or forever chemicals.
他们最近还增加了毒素测试，例如有害塑料中的 BPA 暴露，以及 PFAS 或永久化学物质的测试。
Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas.
Function 不仅提供对您的身心健康至关重要的 100 多种生物标记物的测试，而且还分析这些结果并提供相关领域专家的顶级医生的见解。
For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood.
例如，在我第一次使用 Function 进行测试时，我发现我的血液中汞含量升高。
Function not only helped me detect that, but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, N-acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification.
功能不仅帮助我发现了这一点，还为我提供了如何最好地降低汞含量的见解，其中包括限制我的金枪鱼摄入量，我一直在吃大量金枪鱼，同时还努力多吃绿叶蔬菜并补充 NAC、N-乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都可以支持谷胱甘肽的产生和解毒。
And I should say, by taking a second Function test, that approach worked.
我应该说，通过进行第二次功能测试，这种方法奏效了。
Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important.
全面的血液检测至关重要。
There's so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test.
有很多与您的心理和身体健康相关的事情只能通过血液检查来检测。
The problem is, blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated.
问题是，血液检测一直非常昂贵且复杂。
In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost.
相比之下，Function 的简单性和成本水平给我留下了深刻的印象。
It is very affordable.
这是非常实惠的。
As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.
因此，我决定加入他们的科学顾问委员会，我很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。
If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Function，可以访问 functionhealth.com/huberman。
Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman Podcast listeners.
Function 目前有超过 250,000 人的等候名单，但他们正在为 Huberman 播客听众提供早期访问服务。
Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.
同样，可以通过 functionhealth.com/huberman 提前访问 Function。
Can we talk a little bit about the prey and stalking and capture and killing sequence?
我们能谈谈猎物、跟踪、捕获和杀戮的顺序吗？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One of the things that I've always been fascinated by is when a, let's just use a cat as an example, could be a large cat, could be a small cat, is in its stalking mode, that it essentially gets one ballistic strike opportunity before the chase is on or-
我一直着迷的一件事是，当一只猫，让我们以一只猫为例，可能是一只大猫，也可能是一只小猫，处于跟踪模式时，它基本上会在追逐开始之前获得一次弹道打击机会，或者-
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the animal gets away or it gets caught, right?
动物逃跑或者被抓住，对吗？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we had a cat when I was a kid, that would stalk and so obviously creep up, and then right before it would leap at the prey, it would start chattering its teeth.
当我还是个孩子的时候，我们养了一只猫，它会跟踪，所以显然会爬上来，然后就在它扑向猎物之前，它会开始打颤它的牙齿。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm assuming that was behavioral suppression or something leaking through.
我猜想这是行为抑制或者是某种泄露。
What's going on when an animal does that very deliberate stalking, that calculation, and the teeth chatters or twitching is starting to occur.
当动物故意跟踪、计算、牙齿打颤或抽搐时，发生了什么？
What is that?
那是什么？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
My guess would be perhaps some sort of displacement behavior, that there's motivation to move on in the sequence of behaviors to the next behavior, but it's not quite time yet, and so that sort of activation then gets an outlet through that behavior.
我的猜测可能是某种位移行为，即有动机在行为序列中继续进行下一个行为，但现在还不是时候，因此这种激活然后通过该行为得到一个出口。
But I really don't know.
但我真的不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
I don't know.
我不知道。
I haven't seen this discussed.
我还没有看到这个讨论。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's almost like a hydraulic pressure or something building up.
所以它几乎就像液压或积聚的东西。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Maybe.
也许吧。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Interesting.
有趣的。
We've talked about dogs, we've talked about cats.
我们谈论过狗，我们谈论过猫。
Let's talk about birds.
我们来谈谈鸟类吧。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I had parrots when I was a kid.
我小时候养过鹦鹉。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They were domestically bred little gray-cheeked dwarf parrots.
它们是国内饲养的小灰颊矮鹦鹉。
It didn't turn out poorly, it didn't turn out great.
结果并没有很糟糕，也没有很好。
I didn't clip their wings because I couldn't bring myself to, and they flew around my room a lot and shit around the room a lot and threw a lot of food on the ground a lot, and eventually it made sense to give them to somebody who had an aviary.
我没有剪掉它们的翅膀，因为我无法让自己剪掉它们的翅膀，它们在我的房间里飞来飞去，在房间里拉屎，把很多食物扔到地上，最后把它们送给有鸟舍的人是有意义的。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Parrots are smart, yeah?
鹦鹉很聪明吧？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What are parrots thinking about?
鹦鹉在想什么？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
I think what all animals are thinking about, where their next meal is going to come from, social interactions, and whether there's any threat anywhere.
我认为所有动物都在想什么，它们的下一顿饭从哪里来，社交互动，以及是否存在任何威胁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is that really 90% of their conscious life?
这真的是他们意识生活的90%吗？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
I would say that if the animal doesn't feel safe, then it's very hard to engage the animal in any type of view.
我想说的是，如果动物感到不安全，那么就很难让动物参与任何类型的视图。
If an animal is fearful, and you try to feed them, they often won't take food, for instance.
例如，如果动物很害怕，而你试图喂它们，它们通常不会吃东西。
So the sense of safety has a very high priority because if you don't feel safe, you could die, essentially.
因此，安全感具有非常高的优先级，因为如果你感觉不安全，你基本上可能会死。
So if you're in a situation where you don't feel safe, it's because that situation is potentially dangerous.
因此，如果您处于一种感觉不安全的情况，那是因为这种情况存在潜在危险。
There could be predators around, and then you must focus your attention on those predators, because otherwise you're going to die.
周围可能有掠食者，然后你必须将注意力集中在那些掠食者身上，因为否则你就会死。
And that, of course, depends on the species.
当然，这取决于物种。
Some species aggregate in big flocks, if we're talking birds, and some are pair bonding species.
有些物种聚集成大群，如果我们谈论的是鸟类，有些物种是成对结合的物种。
But the social environment is really important both with regards to parenting behavior.
但社会环境对于养育行为来说确实很重要。
So sexual behavior, parenting behavior, raising young, and so on, all of that also has high priority because it's essentially about furthering your genes into the next generation.
因此，性行为、养育行为、抚养孩子等等，所有这些也具有高度优先级，因为它本质上是为了将你的基因进一步传给下一代。
And then foraging behaviors.
然后是觅食行为。
Where am I going to get my next meal?
我去哪里吃下一顿饭？
We feed them on a plate, and we think that we're doing them a service.
我们用盘子喂它们，我们认为我们正在为它们提供服务。
Like, "Here's your food on a plate.
就像，“这是盘子里的食物。
You don't have to do anything." But they come equipped to actually show their food-getting repertoire of behaviors.
你什么都不用做。”但它们确实有能力展示它们获取食物的所有行为。
So typically, if we don't allow them to show those behaviors, we might see some problem behaviors popping up instead because they will redirect that energy, that intention into...
因此，通常情况下，如果我们不允许他们表现出这些行为，我们可能会看到一些问题行为出现，因为他们会将这种能量、那种意图重新定向到……
I don't know.
我不知道。
Did you have any problems with the birds ripping your carpet or doing some destructive-
你对鸟儿撕裂你的地毯或做一些破坏性的事情有任何问题吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, they destroyed everything.
哦，他们摧毁了一切。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They took great pleasure in ripping everything.
他们以撕毁一切为乐。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Books.
书籍。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
So I would think that is like-
所以我认为这就像-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Books, covers.
书籍，封面。
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
...
...
like the-
就像-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Photos
照片
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
...
...
foraging behavior directed towards the wrong thing.
觅食行为指向错误的事物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I don't recommend anyone own parrots, frankly.
是的，坦率地说，我不推荐任何人养鹦鹉。
That was an experiment gone wrong.
那是一个错误的实验。
Luckily, I think they're still alive.
幸运的是，我认为他们还活着。
They live a very long time.
他们活了很长的时间。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And people can look up the Ecuadorian gray-cheeked dwarf parrots.
人们还可以查找厄瓜多尔灰颊矮鹦鹉。
They have this beautiful orange under their wings.
它们的翅膀下有美丽的橙色。
They have little gray cheeks, and they were called pocket parrots at the excitement for me at that, I was young, I was probably 11, was that I'd be able to carry them around in my pocket.
它们有灰色的小脸颊，它们被称为“口袋鹦鹉”，因为我很兴奋，当时我很年轻，我可能只有 11 岁，因为我可以把它们放在口袋里随身携带。
They didn't want to do that at all.
他们根本不想这样做。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Anyway, it's interesting to think about this need for animals to express their natural repertoire of behaviors.
不管怎样，思考动物表达其自然行为的需要是很有趣的。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For dog owners, I think the common practice is to put out a bowl of food.
对于狗主人来说，我认为常见的做法是放一碗食物。
Would we be better off bringing the food to a park and going to the park and then having them eat there?
我们把食物带到公园然后去公园然后让他们在那里吃会更好吗？
Or somehow incorporating the roaming and prey-seeking behavior?
或者以某种方式将漫游和寻找猎物的行为结合起来？
How would one incorporate that into a more pleasant experience for the dog?
如何将这一点融入到狗的更愉快的体验中？
Because what you're saying makes total sense.
因为你说的很有道理。
They need to express these behaviors.
他们需要表达这些行为。
If they can't, it's going to come out some other way-
如果他们做不到，就会以其他方式出现——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
maybe destructive to them-
也许对他们来说是毁灭性的——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or the environment.
或环境。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Essentially, I think that for dog owners, that what we can do is we can try to promote the different aspects of the predatory sequence that that particular dog in front of us enjoys doing.
从本质上讲，我认为对于狗主人来说，我们可以做的是，我们可以尝试促进我们面前的那只特定的狗喜欢做的掠夺序列的不同方面。
I mentioned nose work as being one of the things that many dogs really enjoy, and interestingly, and this is just sort of the early days of scientific studies on the effects of nose work, are really promising, that one of the effects of nose work seems to be-- So if you're not familiar with it, it's essentially that the animal has learnt that he needs to find a specific scent in an area.
我提到鼻子工作是许多狗真正喜欢的事情之一，有趣的是，这只是对鼻子工作影响的科学研究的早期阶段，非常有希望，鼻子工作的影响之一似乎是 - 所以如果你不熟悉它，本质上是动物已经学会了他需要在一个区域找到特定的气味。
And so he sniffs the area, he roams the area, and he follows the scent, and he'll stop and mark when he finds the scent, and then he gets a reinforcer, so he gets rewarded for doing that.
所以他嗅这个区域，他在这个区域漫步，他追踪气味，当他发现气味时他会停下来做标记，然后他得到一个强化物，所以他会因此而获得奖励。
So that's essentially more or less the setup.
所以这基本上就是设置。
And it seems that it helps regulate arousal, so that animals who are sort of highly strung and almost have generalized anxiety, calm down.
它似乎有助于调节兴奋度，使高度紧张、几乎患有广泛性焦虑的动物平静下来。
And the ones that are sort of semi-depressed get sort of more enthusiastic about life.
那些处于半抑郁状态的人会对生活更加热情。
And also, if we're back in core affect space again, we have this shift to the right-hand side of the core affect space.
而且，如果我们再次回到核心影响空间，我们就会转移到核心影响空间的右侧。
So we have positive valence associated with that.
所以我们有与之相关的正价。
And it seems really interesting.
这看起来真的很有趣。
Early days still, because this dog sport is like just, I don't know, 15 years old or something.
还处于早期阶段，因为这项狗运动就像，我不知道，15 岁之类的。
It's not very old.
它不是很旧。
So essentially, what we can do is we can-- Every dog could do nose work.
所以本质上，我们能做的就是——每只狗都可以做鼻子手术。
I think that would be an interesting sort of an outlet for that very first part of the behavior sequence.
我认为对于行为序列的第一部分来说，这将是一种有趣的出口。
And then I know that some trainers are working specifically to help dogs who chase wildlife, for instance.
然后我知道一些训练师正在专门帮助那些追逐野生动物的狗。
And it's about teaching the dog to stay in the first parts of the predatory sequence, to do the sniffing, the pointing, and the eyeing behavior, and then getting reinforced for that so many times so that it becomes like a feedback loop that they see a deer running across the road, and they go, "Mom, I saw a deer," and they get reinforced for that.
这是关于教狗留在捕食序列的第一部分，进行嗅探、指点和注视行为，然后多次得到强化，这样就变成了一个反馈循环，当它们看到一只鹿跑过马路时，它们会说，“妈妈，我看到一只鹿，”然后它们就会为此得到强化。
So, and other dogs, like greyhounds love chasing, that you allow them to do that.
所以，其他狗，比如灵缇犬，喜欢追逐，你就允许它们这样做。
And then other dogs that really enjoy carrying things, that you allow them to do that, and then give your poodle an old something to rip apart.
然后其他真正喜欢携带东西的狗，你允许它们这样做，然后给你的贵宾犬一个旧的东西来撕碎。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is that what poodles like to do?
这是贵宾犬喜欢做的事吗？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Disembowel things.
把东西开膛破肚。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Poodles like to kill and to do-
贵宾犬喜欢杀戮和做事——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the post-kill ripping apart.
杀后撕裂。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah, ripping apart.
是的，撕裂。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Gosh, the name and the look of a poodle suggests a much more docile animal.
天哪，贵宾犬的名字和外观表明这是一种更加温顺的动物。
So they really like to rip bodies apart.
所以他们真的很喜欢撕碎尸体。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
As far as I understand, yes.
据我了解，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
That makes sense-
这是有道理的——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
given what I understand about the dosing of different genes.
鉴于我对不同基因剂量的理解。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
And then also, rather than serving food on a plate, you might try scatter feeding.
另外，您也可以尝试分散喂食，而不是用盘子盛食物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Or feeding it in a way that the animal actually has to work for it.
或者以动物实际上必须为之工作的方式喂养它。
So do some behavior, like one of these snuffle mats, you hide the food in there, so they have to actually spend some time looking for the food before consuming it.
所以做一些行为，比如其中一个鼻烟垫，你把食物藏在那里，所以他们在吃东西之前实际上必须花一些时间寻找食物。
Because otherwise, if you serve it in a bowl, some animals simply inhale it.
因为否则，如果你把它放在碗里，有些动物就会吸入它。
It takes like 30 seconds and they're done.
大约需要 30 秒，他们就完成了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Costello ate like a seagull.
科斯特洛吃得像海鸥一样。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really, he wouldn't chew his food.
真的，他不会咀嚼食物。
Yeah, it's interesting, the dog food training animal health world sells lots of things where you can put food inside of an object-
是的，很有趣，狗粮训练动物健康世界出售很多可以将食物放入物体内的东西 -
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
where they have to really work hard at it.
他们必须真正努力工作。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I had sort of mixed results with that.
我的结果有点好坏参半。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because I have heard that in addition to exercise and wanting your proximity, that animals, dogs in particular perhaps, really need that cognitive work.
因为我听说，除了锻炼和想要靠近之外，动物，尤其是狗，可能真的需要认知工作。
That they get bored.
他们感到无聊。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they really need the challenge of-
他们确实需要挑战——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
working their mind.
发挥他们的思想。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So much so that on rainy days, like if weather's really bad and you can't go out, that they need an immense amount of kind of search and forage type behavior.
以至于在下雨天，比如天气真的很糟糕而你不能出去时，它们需要大量的搜索和觅食类型的行为。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I strive to do that.
所以我努力做到这一点。
And I know some people might hear this and just think, "This is crazy," like my dog just wants to curl up at my feet, and it just wants to fetch the ball.
我知道有些人听到这句话可能会想，“这太疯狂了”，就像我的狗只想蜷缩在我脚边，它只想把球捡起来。
But that's for fetching breeds.
但这是为了获取品种。
If I threw a ball to Costello, he would go to it, and then just sit on top of it.
如果我向科斯特洛扔一个球，他就会去接球，然后坐在球上。
He had no interest whatsoever in doing anything with that in terms of retrieving it.
他根本没有兴趣用它来取回它。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But he loved to tug, so if I tied a rope to a tree-
但他喜欢拉扯，所以如果我把绳子绑在树上-
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for instance-
例如-
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
he would jump on there and hold on, and I could swing him by his body, weighed 90 pounds.
他会跳到那里并抓住，我可以抓住他重 90 磅的身体摆动他。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And he'd stay up there for 10 minutes.
他会在那里呆10分钟。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like the pleasure of chewing was clearly the strongest-
好像咀嚼的快感显然是最强的——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
innate drive.
与生俱来的驱动力。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I think what I'm realizing is that understanding the sequence of natural behaviors-
所以我认为我意识到理解自然行为的顺序-
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but also where in that sequence a particular breed-
而且还包括在该序列中某个特定品种-
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
really leans to.
真的很倾向于。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
So sometimes it can be hard to know where your dog is on that scale, especially if it's like a mixed breed of some type.
因此，有时很难知道你的狗在这个尺度上处于什么位置，尤其是当它像某种类型的混种狗时。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
And then you can often actually just look at the Conformation of the dog.
然后你通常可以实际上只看狗的构造。
So those very lean, I'm thinking greyhound now, the lean dog with not much muscle and very pointy snout tends to be the chasers.
所以那些非常瘦的狗，我现在想到的是灵缇犬，没有太多肌肉和非常尖的鼻子的瘦狗往往是追逐者。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
And the ones with more front muscles and bigger jaws tend to be the ones that rip things apart.
那些拥有更多前部肌肉和更大下巴的人往往会撕碎东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Bulldogs, rottweilers-
斗牛犬、罗威纳犬——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
mastiffs.
獒犬。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
That kind of thing.
那种事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And some of the smaller ones, the pugs, the French bulldogs.
还有一些体型较小的哈巴狗、法国斗牛犬。
I think people don't appreciate how the breeding down, because a lot of people have dogs who live in apartments.
我认为人们并不欣赏这种繁殖方式，因为很多人都养狗，他们住在公寓里。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Smaller dogs.
较小的狗。
Although, there's this weird thing, you talk to a vet, I have a family member who's a vet.
虽然，有一件奇怪的事情，你和兽医交谈，我有一个家庭成员是兽医。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You say, "What's a great apartment dog?" And they'll say Great Dane because they don't need a ton of space to roam, but you have to walk them, but they don't need long walks compared to a little terrier sometimes-
你说：“什么是很棒的公寓狗？”他们会说大丹犬，因为它们不需要很大的空间来漫游，但你必须遛它们，但有时与小梗犬相比，它们不需要长途行走-
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
needs to just go.
需要走。
Yeah.
是的。
Needs two hours or more of activity.
需要两个小时或更长时间的活动。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I think you need to pay a lot of attention to the type of life that you're going to offer, whether it's living in an apartment in a busy city or whether it's on a farm somewhere.
我认为你需要非常关注你将提供的生活类型，无论是住在繁忙城市的公寓里还是住在某个地方的农场里。
Which breed of dog is going to adapt best to that lifestyle?
哪种狗最能适应这种生活方式？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you think dogs like cities?
你认为狗喜欢城市吗？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
I think many dogs get very stressed in cities because of the constant bombardment of sensory information.
我认为，由于感官信息的不断轰炸，许多狗在城市中感到压力很大。
So there's noise, there's dogs, so if you're out walking on the street, there's constantly meeting strangers.
所以这里有噪音，有狗，所以如果你出去走在街上，总会遇到陌生人。
And for many animal species, meeting strangers, A, doesn't happen very often, and B, causes an increase in arousal because it could be a friend or foe.
对于许多动物物种来说，遇到陌生人 A 并不经常发生，B 会导致兴奋增加，因为它可能是朋友或敌人。
It could be someone that you want to fight with, it could be someone you want to have sex with.
它可能是你想与之战斗的人，也可能是你想与之发生性关系的人。
You need to assess the situation.
你需要评估情况。
And I think that dogs are quite unique in that respect in that they have a high tolerance for strangers because many other animal species do not.
我认为狗在这方面非常独特，因为它们对陌生人有很高的容忍度，而许多其他动物物种则不然。
And I think that we tend to forget that sometimes, that we introduce animals to animals that they don't know, and we expect them to get along, and they don't.
我认为我们有时会忘记，我们将动物介绍给它们不认识的动物，我们希望它们能够相处，但它们却没有。
That type of introduction needs to be done really carefully.
这种类型的介绍需要非常仔细地进行。
Typically, we might start with just exchanging scents.
通常，我们可能会从交换气味开始。
So if you have one cat and want to get a second cat, for instance, they typically won't just accept the other the way that two dogs might do, for instance.
因此，例如，如果您有一只猫并想养第二只猫，它们通常不会像两只狗那样接受另一只猫。
So then you might have them in different rooms, and you might rub one cat with one towel and rub the other cat with another towel and then exchange towels.
所以你可能会把它们放在不同的房间里，你可能会用一条毛巾擦一只猫，用另一条毛巾擦另一只猫，然后交换毛巾。
And then you might want to gradually incorporate other sensory modalities, too, so that they'll start hearing each other, and finally, that they start seeing each other, and then at the end, the tactile, so the actual physical contact.
然后你可能还想逐渐融入其他感官方式，这样他们就会开始互相听到对方的声音，最后，他们开始看到对方，最后是触觉，也就是实际的身体接触。
And if you do it that way, you reduce the risk that they'll actually start fighting when you do the introduction.
如果你这样做，就可以降低在你做介绍时他们实际上开始打架的风险。
Because if you just put them together, they might just escalate to aggression right away.
因为如果你把它们放在一起，它们可能会立即升级为攻击性。
But if you do it gradually, that exchange of information will help them sort of figure out who the other is and reduce the risk of aggression.
但如果你逐渐地这样做，这种信息交换将帮助他们弄清楚对方是谁并减少攻击的风险。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One thing I've always been fascinated by, and there's a little bit of data starting to emerge on this as to what the mechanisms might be, is self versus other species recognition.
我一直着迷的一件事是自我与其他物种的识别，并且已经开始出现一些关于其可能机制的数据。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Most notably that dogs, unless it's a dominance behavior, don't try to mate with cats, for instance.
最值得注意的是，狗不会尝试与猫交配，除非这是一种支配行为。
They might hump, but that's a separate thing.
他们可能会驼背，但那是另一回事。
They're actually separate circuits.
它们实际上是独立的电路。
My colleague, David Anderson at Caltech, did a really beautiful study.
我的同事，加州理工学院的大卫·安德森（David Anderson）做了一项非常精彩的研究。
The takeaway shows that there are separate circuits in the brain for mounting behavior for sex versus mounting behavior for dominance.
结论表明，大脑中有独立的回路来控制性行为和控制行为。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Oh, interesting.
哦，有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the mounting behavior for dominance circuits exist in males and females of a species where only the male mounts for purposes of reproduction.
一个物种的雄性和雌性都存在优势电路的骑乘行为，其中只有雄性为了繁殖而骑乘。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So this notion of mounting as a dominance behavior is a very real thing, even in mice.
因此，这种将骑乘作为一种优势行为的概念是非常真实的，即使在老鼠身上也是如此。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In any case, setting mounting for dominance behavior aside, AKA humping, it's remarkable.
无论如何，抛开支配行为的安装（又名驼峰），这是非常了不起的。
Like a horse doesn't try and mate with a dog.
就像马不会尝试与狗交配一样。
Different species of animals seem to know self versus other.
不同种类的动物似乎能够了解自己和其他动物。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They don't have to learn it from their mom-
他们不必向他们的妈妈学习-
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or dad-
或者爸爸-
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or us.
或我们。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
It's innate.
这是与生俱来的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's innate.
这是与生俱来的。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
For most species.
对于大多数物种来说。
There's actually a few exceptions, being what comes to mind is certain waterfowl birds, where a female, and I can't say which species now, but some species of water bird, the female recognizes the male innately, but the male learns through sexual imprinting when they're young to sort of be attracted to females that resemble the female that reared them.
实际上有一些例外，我想到的是某些水禽，其中是雌性的，我现在不能说是哪个物种，但有些水鸟物种，雌性天生就能识别雄性，但雄性在年轻时通过性印记学会了被与抚养它们的雌性相似的雌性所吸引。
And essentially, this is because in those species, the males are typically very ornamented and sort of really fabulous-looking, and the females are cryptic.
从本质上讲，这是因为在这些物种中，雄性通常非常装饰，看起来非常漂亮，而雌性则很神秘。
They're camouflaged, so they're brown.
它们经过伪装，所以呈棕色。
So the males need to learn what mom looks like, and when they grow up, they'll start courting females that look like mom.
因此，雄性需要了解妈妈的样子，当它们长大后，它们就会开始向看起来像妈妈的雌性求爱。
And so if you raise such a male with the wrong species, they'll start courting the wrong female.
因此，如果你用错误的物种饲养这样的雄性，它们就会开始向错误的雌性求爱。
And of course, she won't be interested because he doesn't look like her golden standard of what a male of that species is supposed to look like.
当然，她不会感兴趣，因为他看起来不像她心目中该物种雄性的黄金标准。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's so interesting.
太有趣了。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As a kid who had aquaria, you can tell I've had a lot of different animals.
作为一个有水族馆的孩子，你可以看出我养过很多不同的动物。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I never successfully bred fish in captivity.
我从来没有成功地圈养过鱼。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I tried to breed cuttlefish in captivity in my lab.
我尝试在实验室里圈养乌贼。
That didn't work, although I successfully raised them.
尽管我成功地养育了它们，但这并没有奏效。
But I got really into freshwater discus for a while.
但有一段时间我真的很喜欢淡水铁饼。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And tried very hard to get A breeding tank going.
并非常努力地让养殖池运转起来。
It's very difficult.
这是非常困难的。
But occasionally, someone in the aquarium community that I was a part of would succeed in getting breeding between discus fish.
但偶尔，我所在的水族馆社区中的某个人会成功地在七彩鱼之间进行繁殖。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But you never so ever see an instance of a discus fish trying to fertilize the eggs of a different species of fish.
但你从来没有见过七彩神仙鱼试图让不同种类的鱼的卵受精的例子。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They just know.
他们只是知道。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's got to be for them odorant, or presumably mixed sensory.
对于他们来说，这肯定是有气味的，或者可能是混合感官的。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's really a striking aspect-
这确实是一个引人注目的方面——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of even in spe-- I have friends who study flies.
甚至在特殊领域——我有研究苍蝇的朋友。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So if they study Drosophila of one particular type-
因此，如果他们研究一种特定类型的果蝇——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the one type of fruit fly will not try to mate with another type of fruit fly.
一种果蝇不会尝试与另一种果蝇交配。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they look very similar to you and me.
他们看起来和你我非常相似。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So there's something really-
所以确实有一些东西——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
powerful there.
那里很强大。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah, I think that in breeding avoidance is a mechanism that prevents many animal species from mating with someone who's too genetically similar to yourself-
是的，我认为避免繁殖是一种机制，可以防止许多动物物种与与自己基因过于相似的人交配-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
...
...
since we get this inbreeding depression.
因为我们患上了近亲繁殖衰退。
But there's also sort of don't waste your time mating with someone that you can't even produce offspring.
但也有一点不要浪费时间与那些你甚至无法生育后代的人交配。
However, one other exception that came to mind was ungulates.
然而，我想到的另一个例外是有蹄类动物。
Sometimes, and I have this memory of being, I was in Africa back in 1995, at the Chimfunshi Wildlife Orphanage, walking chimps into the forest to sort of rehabilitate them.
有时，我记得 1995 年，我在非洲的 Chimfunshi 野生动物孤儿院，带着黑猩猩走进森林，让它们康复。
And they had a young duiker there, which is a very small, like yay high, antelope kind of thing, who had been orphaned and bottle raised, and sexually imprinted on humans.
他们那里有一只小羚羊，它很小，像羚羊一样高，它是孤儿，在瓶子里长大，并在人类身上留下了性印记。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Whoa.
哇哦。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
So he came up and started humping me more or less thinking that I was his kind.
于是他走上前来，开始驼背我，或多或少认为我是他的同类。
So that type of sexual imprinting is when predominantly, I think, males learn, they imprint sexually on the type of individual that raised them.
因此，我认为，这种类型的性印记主要是当男性学习时，他们将性印记印在抚养他们的个体类型上。
So that's the type of individual that they will then later also try to court.
因此，他们随后也会尝试向这种类型的人求爱。
I think Konrad Lorenz had a, also in one of his books, he described some sort of corvid species who he also raised from young and who started courting his secretary or- ...
我认为康拉德·洛伦茨（Konrad Lorenz）在他的一本书中也描述了某种鸦科动物，他从小就养育了这种鸟类，并开始向他的秘书求爱，或者……
someone.
某人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, my.
哦，我的。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
And the interesting story there was the courting behavior in this bird is vomiting, leaving like a present, and offering food in any open surface or orifice.
有趣的是，这只鸟的求爱行为是呕吐，像礼物一样离开，并在任何开放的表面或孔口提供食物。
So he would try to sort of get her to open her mouth, and when she didn't, he would go and leave the present in her ear instead.
所以他会试图让她张开嘴，当她不张嘴时，他就会去把礼物留在她耳边。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Ugh.
呃。
Disgusting.
恶心。
People can offset their disgust by, we'll provide a link to the now very famous picture of Konrad Lorenz, who won the Nobel Prize, I believe-
人们可以通过以下方式抵消他们的厌恶，我们将提供现在非常著名的诺贝尔奖获得者康拉德·洛伦兹照片的链接，我相信-
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for his discoveries about imprinting, where the geese would imprint on him.
表彰他对印记的发现，即鹅会在他身上留下印记。
It's him swimming in a lake with the-
这是他在湖里游泳，和-
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
trail of baby geese behind him.
他身后有小鹅的踪迹。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The goslings behind him.
他身后的小鹅们。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
So that's the other type of imprinting you're talking about.
这就是你所说的另一种类型的印记。
That's filial imprinting.
这就是孝顺的印记。
So there are two types.
所以有两种类型。
There's the sexual imprinting, where you learn who to mate with, and there's the filial imprinting, where you sort of learn who to feel safe with, and they start following that individual.
有性印记，你知道与谁交配，还有孝顺印记，你知道与谁在一起感到安全，然后他们开始追随那个人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is what dogs do with us.
这就是狗对我们所做的事情。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Actually, I would say that dogs don't imprint on humans.
事实上，我想说狗不会给人类留下印记。
They grow attachment bonds to humans.
他们与人类建立了依恋关系。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's the difference?
有什么区别？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
So imprinting is typically a very fast process.
因此，压印通常是一个非常快的过程。
It occurs within minutes or hours.
它会在几分钟或几小时内发生。
Attachment takes longer and involves more senses.
依恋需要更长的时间并涉及更多的感官。
So imprinting tends to be, I think, visual, if I'm not mistaken.
所以我认为，如果我没记错的话，印记往往是视觉的。
Perhaps olfactory in some species.
也许某些物种有嗅觉。
And attachment has previously mostly been studied in humans.
此前，依恋主要是在人类身上进行的研究。
So this bond that grows between caregiver and offspring.
因此，这种纽带在照顾者和后代之间不断发展。
What's interesting also is that attachment bond will grow in different ways depending on how the caregiver responds to the young one's needs, essentially.
有趣的是，依恋纽带将以不同的方式增长，这取决于照顾者如何回应年轻人的需求。
So you can have a secure attachment bond, where the caregiver very reliably responds to the needs of the young one, so that if they find themselves alone, they can self-regulate better, so their nervous system can more easily calm down again after a stressor than if they are insecurely attached.
因此，你可以建立一种安全的依恋关系，照顾者可以非常可靠地回应孩子的需求，这样，如果他们发现自己独自一人，他们可以更好地自我调节，这样他们的神经系统在压力源之后可以比不安全依恋更容易再次平静下来。
And so it seems that dogs form, rather than imprinting on humans, they form a type of attachment bond, and they can also be securely or insecurely attached to their persons.
因此，狗似乎不是在人类身上形成印记，而是形成一种依恋纽带，而且它们也可以安全地或不安全地依附于人类。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's going to open up a whole set of ideas for people because this whole notion of secure-insecure and then the D-babies in the classic Bowlby-
这将为人们打开一整套想法，因为安全-不安全的整个概念，以及经典 Bowlby 中的 D-babies-
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
experiments that we've talked about before on this podcast, where this kind of disorganized-
我们之前在这个播客上讨论过的实验，其中这种杂乱无章的-
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
response is something that is thrown around a lot nowadays in dating culture, relationship pop psychology culture.
回应是当今约会文化、关系流行心理学文化中经常出现的东西。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like are people, is he or she securely attached?
就像人一样，他或她有安全依恋吗？
Is he or she avoidant?
他或她是回避型的吗？
Is he or she-
他或她是——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
anxious attached?
着急附？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, guess what, folks, it's also in your pets.
好吧，猜猜看，伙计们，它也存在于你的宠物身上。
So now you can-
所以现在你可以-
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
start to get into that.
开始进入那个。
In those classic experiments of Bowlby, just to summarize very briefly, mother, and it was typically mother, although other caretakers now have been tested, but mother and child are separated.
在鲍尔比的那些经典实验中，非常简单地总结一下，母亲，而且是典型的母亲，虽然现在其他看护者也被测试了，但母亲和孩子是分开的。
There's a predictable, understandable, and healthy anxiety response that occurs.
会出现一种可预测、可理解且健康的焦虑反应。
If the conditions are right, the kid eventually comes to play and relax a bit.
如果条件合适，孩子最终会来玩并放松一下。
If the conditions aren't right, they don't.
如果条件不合适，他们就不会。
That's all healthy.
这都是健康的。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But the real test is on reunion with mom.
但真正的考验是与妈妈团聚。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And also how they respond to a stranger.
以及他们如何回应陌生人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right, the strange situation test.
对了，奇怪的情况测试。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah, strange situation.
是啊，奇怪的情况。
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do they feel comforted, and how do they approach mom when mom comes back?
当妈妈回来时，他们会如何接近妈妈？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is it eager to see and relaxed?
是不是跃跃欲试、心旷神怡？
Is it uncertain?
不确定吗？
Is it avoidant?
是回避型吗？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's what this test is about.
这就是本次测试的目的。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Or clingy also.
或粘人也。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So the same types of experiments have been done on dogs, and it's been found that certain dogs are sort of insecurely attached.
因此，对狗进行了相同类型的实验，结果发现某些狗有某种不安全的依恋。
They'll be clingy or avoidant, and some are securely attached.
他们会很粘人或回避，有些人会牢固地依附。
So they'll be more explorative.
所以他们会更具探索性。
They'll recover quicker from the separation.
他们会从分离中恢复得更快。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So this is great.
所以这很棒。
So if people drop off their dog at the dog sitter when they travel and then come back, the reunion tells you a lot about how that dog feels.
因此，如果人们在旅行时将他们的狗交给狗保姆然后再回来，那么团聚会告诉你很多关于那只狗的感受。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Sadly, I think that-- And I'm not sure that I have any backup in any scientific studies here, but I suspect, at least, that probably early weaning predisposed dogs to insecure attachment.
可悲的是，我认为——我不确定我在这里的任何科学研究有任何支持，但我怀疑，至少，过早断奶的狗可能容易产生不安全的依恋。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In this country, the typical idea is that puppies can be separated from their mother at about eight weeks.
在这个国家，典型的想法是小狗在八周左右就可以与母亲分开。
Do you feel that's too early?
你觉得还太早吗？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
As an ethologist, sort of looking at how the species live in the wild, what type of social interactions they have, and how can we best provide an environment to sort of promote natural behavior, for me, eight weeks is way too early.
作为一名动物行为学家，要了解物种在野外的生活方式、它们的社会互动类型，以及我们如何才能最好地提供一个环境来促进自然行为，对我来说，八周还太早。
So we have some studies from the, I don't know, '60s or something, where I think two researchers called Scott and Fuller did some separation studies, but that was with dogs aged like three, four, five, six weeks, and they found that that type of early separation was really detrimental.
所以我们有一些研究，我不知道，是在 60 年代还是什么时候，我认为两位名叫斯科特和富勒的研究人员做了一些分离研究，但那是针对三、四、五、六周大的狗，他们发现这种早期分离确实是有害的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
But as far as I know, there's been very few studies done beyond eight weeks.
但据我所知，超过八周的研究很少。
And of course, many people would then say that, "Okay, well, we have to do all that socialization stuff where the animal learns to sort of accept life with humans." That would then have to occur at the breeder's rather than in the new environment.
当然，很多人会说，“好吧，我们必须做所有社会化的事情，让动物学会接受与人类一起生活。”那么这必须在饲养员那里发生，而不是在新环境中。
But actually, I'm not so sure because it seems that if you have secure attachment, you're better able to self-regulate after being exposed to something that will dysregulate you.
但实际上，我不太确定，因为似乎如果你有安全依恋，你在接触到会让你失调的东西后就能更好地进行自我调节。
So you have an event happening, you get anxious and sort of fearful, and that then your nervous system is able to calm down again.
当你发生一件事时，你会感到焦虑和恐惧，然后你的神经系统就能再次平静下来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
And so I think that if we simply allow dogs to have secure attachment, then perhaps the need for this-- Sometimes the socialization procedures are very elaborate.
所以我认为，如果我们只是允许狗有安全依恋，那么也许需要这样做——有时社会化程序非常复杂。
There's like a list of 100 things that the dog needs to be exposed to.
大约有 100 种狗需要接触的东西的清单。
Men with beards and children aged 12, and people with certain types of shoes, and the vacuum cleaner, and so on.
有胡子的男人和12岁的孩子，以及穿着某些类型鞋子的人，还有吸尘器等等。
There's a whole list of things that you need to expose an animal to.
有一个完整的清单，列出了您需要让动物接触的东西。
And I would think that if the animal is securely attached so that they have learned self-regulation, being exposed to those things will not be such a big deal.
我认为，如果动物能够安全地依附，从而学会自我调节，那么接触这些东西就不是什么大问题了。
But I don't think that we have the research to back up that assertion quite yet.
但我认为我们还没有研究来支持这一说法。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
College football is back.
大学橄榄球回来了。
So Hilton called in me, the superstition concierge, to make your fan rituals a reality.
所以希尔顿请来了我这个迷信礼宾员，让你的粉丝仪式成为现实。
Need a room to match your lucky number?
需要一间与您的幸运数字相匹配的房间吗？
We got you.
我们找到你了。
Want to make sure our team doesn't wash your lucky jersey?
想要确保我们的团队不会清洗您的幸运球衣吗？
Oh, that smells lucky.
哦，这闻起来很幸运。
Hilton's unmatched hospitality can keep up with any superstition, even a marching band wake-up call at 5:55 and 55 seconds.
希尔顿无与伦比的热情好客可以消除任何迷信，甚至是 5 点 55 分 55 秒的军乐队叫醒服务。
Hit it.
击中它。
When you need a team that will do whatever it takes on game day, it matters where you stay.
当你需要一支在比赛当天不惜一切代价的球队时，你留在哪里就很重要。
Hilton.
希尔顿。
For the stay.
为了住宿。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love this notion because we can't prepare humans, including ourselves, or animals for every circumstance.
我喜欢这个概念，因为我们无法让人类（包括我们自己）或动物为每种情况做好准备。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But we can train up-
但我们可以训练——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
neural circuits.
神经回路。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm a neurobiologist, after all.
毕竟我是一名神经生物学家。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so I like to think of this more as, as opposed to preparing for events-
所以我更喜欢把这看作是，而不是为事件做准备——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you prepare for processes.
您为流程做好准备。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, much has been said on this podcast and others about deliberate cold exposure.
因此，这个播客和其他播客已经说了很多关于故意暴露在寒冷环境中的内容。
Why take a cold shower?
为什么要洗冷水澡？
It's not about the specific benefits of the cold shower.
这与冷水淋浴的具体好处无关。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It teaches you how to navigate having high adrenaline in your body-
它教你如何应对体内肾上腺素高的情况——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which is the universal generic response to stress.
这是对压力的普遍反应。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you can export self-regulation from one situation to the other.
因此，您可以将自我监管从一种情况导出到另一种情况。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What you're describing is a much more important life stage example than deliberate cold exposure.
你所描述的是一个比故意暴露在寒冷中更重要的生命阶段例子。
It's about, as you said, being able to navigate attachments that are there, then gone-
正如您所说，它是关于能够导航存在但随后消失的附件-
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
then there again.
然后又出现了。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is one of my major concerns.
这是我最关心的问题之一。
We don't want to go off on a tangent too far here, but since humans are animals, as you pointed out, about texting.
我们不想在这里离题太远，但正如您所指出的，关于发短信，人类是动物。
Oftentimes, texting can be a wonderful tool.
通常，发短信是一个很棒的工具。
It also can be a way that people don't learn to ever deal with to self-regulate.
这也可能是人们永远无法学会自我调节的一种方式。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You see this as the plane lands or the plane's taking off.
当飞机着陆或起飞时，您会看到这一点。
People frantically texting, which can be about, "Hey, my plane just arrived." It can also be about an inability to just deal with the real-life uncertainty that you're not in charge up there.
人们疯狂地发短信，内容可能是“嘿，我的飞机刚刚到达。”这也可能是因为你无法应对现实生活中的不确定性，因为你不负责那里。
The pilots-
飞行员们——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and the weather conditions are.
和天气条件是。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, in any case, I have a probably controversial question.
所以，无论如何，我有一个可能有争议的问题。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But we've opened up some Pandora's boxes, so why not?
但我们已经打开了一些潘多拉魔盒，那为什么不呢？
I opted to neuter my dog.
我选择给我的狗绝育。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I did that when he was about six months old.
当他大约六个月大时，我就这样做了。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I did that, honestly, reluctantly.
老实说，我很不情愿地这么做了。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People say, "Well, men with their dogs, and they don't want to neuter their dogs, and it's for these whatever Y chromosome-related reasons or something." Perhaps it is.
人们会说，“嗯，养狗的男人，他们不想给他们的狗做绝育，这是出于与 Y 染色体相关的原因或其他原因。”也许是的。
But really the reason I was reluctant was, A, I thought I might want to breed Costello at some point.
但我不情愿的真正原因是，A，我想我可能想在某个时候繁殖科斯特洛。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The other is I spent two years of my life studying and researching and eventually publishing papers on the effects of early androgens on-- I had a minor role in that study, but effects of early androgens on brain development.
另一个是我花了两年的时间学习和研究并最终发表了关于早期雄激素对大脑发育的影响的论文——我在那项研究中扮演了次要角色，但早期雄激素对大脑发育的影响。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you don't have to spend long in that field of hormones and development to know that hormones, testosterone and estrogen-
你不必在激素和发育领域花费很长时间就知道激素、睾酮和雌激素——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
have a powerful, powerful organizing effect on the brain of males and females.
对男性和女性的大脑具有强大的组织作用。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So-
所以——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
And that also occurs during adolescence.
这也会发生在青春期。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then there's the surge of hormone that comes-- So right, it happens in utero.
然后荷尔蒙激增——没错，它发生在子宫内。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And then-
然后——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then those are the organizing effects, and then there are the activating effects, as you're pointing out, of hormones.
然后这些是组织效应，然后是荷尔蒙的激活效应，正如你所指出的。
That then during puberty-
那么在青春期——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the ovaries in females or the testes in males produce hormones that then act on this kind of template that was laid down.
女性的卵巢或男性的睾丸会产生激素，然后按照这种既定的模板发挥作用。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so I knew that whatever testosterone, estrogen, et cetera, Costello had seen in utero, he'd seen.
所以我知道，无论科斯特洛在子宫内看到了什么睾丸激素、雌激素等等，他都看到了。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that by removing his testicles, let's be honest what neutering is, all the men are cringing, and the women are like, "Okay, got it." But if I said remove ovaries, they might have a different response.
说实话，通过切除他的睾丸，绝育是什么，所有男人都感到畏缩，而女人则说，“好吧，明白了。”但如果我说切除卵巢，他们可能会有不同的反应。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So by removing his testes, that he would not experience the activating effects of hormones.
因此，通过切除他的睾丸，他就不会经历激素的激活作用。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
To make a long story short, it seemed he had a great life.
长话短说，他的生活似乎很美好。
He was a wonderful dog.
他是一只很棒的狗。
When he got to be about nine years old, he had a lot of joint aching and pain.
当他大约九岁的时候，他的关节疼痛得很厉害。
He had some extensive nail growth that was really, really fast.
他的指甲生长得非常非常快。
Some things were odd.
有些事情很奇怪。
I opted to do an experiment, and I started injecting him with 50 milligrams of testosterone per week.
我选择做一个实验，开始每周给他注射 50 毫克睾酮。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The response was incredible.
反应令人难以置信。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
His vigor returned.
他的活力又回来了。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
His joint pain, at least in terms of his willingness to go down the stairs quickly, to stand up quickly, incredible.
他的关节疼痛，至少从他愿意快速下楼、快速站起来的角度来看，令人难以置信。
He got two more years of what I thought was a great life.
他又享受了两年我认为美好的生活。
I hope it was.
我希望是这样。
And what's interesting is that when I talked about this publicly on a few other podcasts, I injected my bulldog with testosterone after neutering him, I thought I was going to get a tsunami of criticism from the veterinary community.
有趣的是，当我在其他几个播客上公开谈论这一点时，我在给我的斗牛犬绝育后注射了睾酮，我以为我会受到兽医界的海啸批评。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Instead, I received hundreds of emails saying, "Thank you.
相反，我收到了数百封电子邮件，内容是：“谢谢。
We actually actively discourage people from neutering their animals unless they're in a circumstance where that dog can get out and mate because we don't need more strays."
事实上，我们积极劝阻人们不要对自己的动物进行绝育，除非他们处于那种狗可以出去交配的环境，因为我们不需要更多的流浪狗。”
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"And there are a number of positive health benefits to keeping hormones intact."
“保持荷尔蒙完好无损对健康有许多积极的好处。”
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"And I'm going to start doing what you did with some of my patient dogs."
“我将开始像你对我的一些耐心的狗所做的那样。”
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not one vet, mind you, I have no training as a vet, not one vet said, "Hey, you were out of line doing that.
请注意，没有一位兽医说，我没有接受过兽医培训，也没有一位兽医说：“嘿，你这样做太不合规矩了。
You shouldn't have been doing that." And I'll tell you, if I get another dog and it's a male dog, I'll be very careful to not let him out, and I'll be very careful with the training so he's not excessively aggressive.
你不应该这样做。”我会告诉你，如果我再养一只狗，而且是一只公狗，我会非常小心，不让它出去，而且我会非常小心地训练，这样它就不会过度攻击性。
But I'm not going to neuter him.
但我不会给他绝育。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I know this is going to activate some people, but I'd love your thoughts on neutering in male and female dogs in particular, given everything that you and I know about hormones and what we just talked about.
我知道这会激起一些人的兴趣，但考虑到你和我对荷尔蒙的了解以及我们刚才讨论的内容，我很想听听你对公狗和母狗绝育的想法。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
You're touching on several different things that I think are interesting.
你谈到了我认为很有趣的几个不同的事情。
One, that it's very much a cultural phenomenon.
第一，这在很大程度上是一种文化现象。
That in Norway, I know that you're not allowed to neuter dogs unless for medical reasons.
在挪威，我知道除非出于医疗原因，否则不允许对狗进行绝育。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And in Western Australia, you're not allowed not to neuter dogs unless for a medical reason or if you want to breed them.
在西澳大利亚，除非出于医疗原因或想要繁殖狗，否则不允许对狗进行绝育。
So it's very cultural whether neutering is something that you do or not in any given location.
因此，在任何特定地点是否进行绝育都是非常有文化的。
That's one.
这是一个。
The second thing is that you said that neutering is about removing testicles.
第二件事是你说绝育就是切除睾丸。
Actually, there's other procedures that can be done, which is essentially just snipping the connection.
实际上，还有其他步骤可以完成，本质上只是切断连接。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
So not removing testicles so that they continue producing all the stuff-
所以不要切除睾丸，以便它们继续产生所有的东西-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
...
...
that they produce.
他们生产的。
But they can't reproduce sexually.
但它们不能有性繁殖。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Why don't we just give them vasectomies?
我们为什么不给他们做输精管结扎术呢？
Why don't I...
我为什么不...
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So vasectomies.
所以输精管结扎术。
And for females, the corresponding procedure would then be to sort of whatever it is.
对于女性来说，相应的程序将是无论它是什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Tie the tubes.
系紧管子。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Tie the tubes.
系紧管子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So to speak.
这么说吧。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Whatever it is.
不管是什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
And there's also a third option, which is chemical castration.
还有第三种选择，那就是化学阉割。
That's reversible.
这是可逆的。
But you can try to see what behavioral effects you get from a change of hormonal status.
但你可以尝试看看荷尔蒙状态的变化会对你的行为产生什么影响。
There's also this interesting thing that the knowledge of the effects of castration, or of neutering, has really changed a lot in the last 20 years or so.
还有一件有趣的事情是，在过去 20 年左右的时间里，人们对阉割或绝育影响的认识确实发生了很大变化。
It used to be in the 1990s that it used to be recommended because they wouldn't reproduce, and there'd be less humping and some...
它曾经在 20 世纪 90 年代被推荐，因为它们不会繁殖，而且驼峰会更少，而且有些......
So it was sort of promoted with regards to certain behavioral changes.
因此，它在某些行为改变方面得到了推广。
Later studies have shown, and there's more than 20 in the last 20 years or so, have shown that quite consistently that some of the effects of neutering might be, particularly in males apparently, and it depends on the age at which this is done also, and it has to do with the activation process, of course, is that you see an increase in fear, an increase in reactivity, aggressive behavior.
后来的研究表明，在过去 20 年左右的时间里，有超过 20 项研究表明，绝育的某些影响可能是一致的，尤其是对雄性，这也取决于绝育的年龄，当然，它与激活过程有关，你会看到恐惧的增加、反应性的增加、攻击性行为的增加。
You might see an increase in noise sensitivity and so on.
您可能会看到噪声敏感度增加等。
So it seems that as you were touching on, the change in hormonal status not only has this physical effect on the body but also behavioral effects.
所以，正如你刚才提到的，荷尔蒙状态的变化不仅对身体有物理影响，而且对行为也有影响。
Now, there's also an increase in risk of certain cancers or certain have physical problems and a decrease in others.
现在，某些癌症或某些身体问题的风险也有所增加，而其他癌症或某些身体问题的风险则有所下降。
So I would suggest that once you do get your next dog, that you discuss with a veterinarian the best option for that particular breed and that particular individual, because it's going to be very breed specific.
所以我建议，一旦你得到了你的下一只狗，你就与兽医讨论该特定品种和特定个体的最佳选择，因为它会因品种而异。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
It's gender specific, and it's also the age at which these procedures are done.
它是特定于性别的，也是进行这些手术的年龄。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
So to me, it's very interesting that in Norway, dogs are not allowed to be fixed except for medical reasons.
所以对我来说，非常有趣的是，在挪威，除非出于医疗原因，否则不允许对狗进行修复。
In Australia, they have to be, at least in Western Australia.
在澳大利亚，他们必须如此，至少在西澳大利亚。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So this idea of keeping dogs intact, so to speak, is not such a heretical one.
因此，可以说，让狗完好无损的想法并不是一种异端。
But I think in the United States, a lot of this is still getting worked out.
但我认为在美国，很多问题仍在解决中。
And I think that the statistics say that the number of people with pets in the home now in the United States is almost every home.
我认为统计数据显示，现在美国几乎每个家庭都有宠物。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I think it's 40% of Americans own a dog.
我认为 40% 的美国人养狗。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
And I think in Norway, it's 15.
我想在挪威，这个数字是 15。
Probably this ties in a lot to why the cultures have emerged so differently, because there's a lot less backyard breeding and so on, and feral populations in Scandinavia of dogs.
这可能与文化出现如此不同的原因有很大关系，因为后院繁殖等的情况要少得多，而且斯堪的纳维亚半岛的狗的野生种群也少得多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
So we don't have this huge problem with overpopulation-
所以我们不存在人口过剩这个大问题-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
...
...
that you'll see in some other countries.
您会在其他一些国家看到这一点。
And I think that here, a lot of the neutering is done to control the population, predominantly as a way to sort of try to reduce the number of animals that go into shelters and so on.
我认为，在这里，进行大量绝育是为了控制种群数量，主要是为了减少进入收容所等动物的数量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, certainly, there are a lot of dogs in shelters now.
嗯，当然，现在收容所里有很多狗。
During the pandemic-
疫情期间——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
people were adopting them like crazy, so it was actually hard to get dogs and cats during that time.
人们疯狂地收养它们，所以那段时间其实很难养到狗和猫。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't know what the state of things is now.
我不知道现在情况如何。
Someone can put that in the comments.
有人可以将其放在评论中。
I really have one last category of questions.
我确实有最后一类问题。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it's one that you've sort of touched on from various sides throughout today's conversation, and that relates to humans as animals.
但在今天的谈话中，你从各个方面都谈到了这个问题，它与人类作为动物有关。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't think one can be an animal ethologist, or a neurobiologist for that matter, who reads papers and does studies on other animals, without at some point stepping back and making this realization.
我不认为一个人可以成为一名动物行为学家，或者神经生物学家，阅读论文并对其他动物进行研究，而不在某个时候退后一步并认识到这一点。
We're old world primates.
我们是旧大陆的灵长类动物。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We're the best at technology development- ...
我们是最擅长技术开发的-...
among all the species.
所有物种之中。
I don't think that's too much of a leap.
我不认为这有太大的飞跃。
We're certainly not as good at natural camouflage, catching and killing things with our hands.
我们当然不擅长自然伪装、用手捕捉和杀死东西。
We need tools to do this.
我们需要工具来做到这一点。
So we have our strengths, we have our limitations with respect to the other species.
因此，相对于其他物种，我们有我们的优势，也有我们的局限性。
Is there anything in your training as an animal ethologist that causes you to reflect on human beings as particularly, I don't know, spectacular and particularly deficient in some way?
在你作为一名动物行为学家的训练中，是否有什么东西让你反思人类，我不知道，人类在某些方面特别引人注目，但又特别有缺陷？
Or just any kind of musings about the human species, because that's a species we haven't talked about today.
或者只是对人类物种的任何思考，因为这是我们今天没有讨论的物种。
But I think a lot of what you're describing in terms of the breakdown of these sequence of behaviors, what makes us feel safe, one can't help but wonder what are some aspects of ourselves that perhaps if we thought about a little bit more deeply, we could really benefit from?
但我认为你所描述的很多关于这些行为序列的分解的内容，是什么让我们感到安全，人们不禁想知道我们自己的哪些方面也许如果我们更深入地思考一点，我们真的可以从中受益？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
One thing that leaps to mind is the extent to which cultural learning occurs in humans.
浮现在脑海中的一件事是人类进行文化学习的程度。
For other animal species, they learn from trial and error.
对于其他动物物种，它们从反复试验中学习。
If I do this, that happens.
如果我这样做，就会发生这种情况。
First that happens, then that other thing happens.
首先发生这种情况，然后发生其他事情。
So classical conditioning and operant conditioning tie into sort of forming the animal's behavior.
因此，经典条件反射和操作性条件反射与动物行为的形成有关。
They also have social learning.
他们也有社交学习。
They watch someone else and look at what they do.
他们观察别人并观察他们所做的事情。
In this situation, I'm feeling a bit disconcerted watching you to see how you react.
在这种情况下，我看着你的反应感到有点不安。
Oh, you don't seem to be that upset.
噢，看来你并没有那么沮丧。
Okay, I guess I don't have to be that either.
好吧，我想我也不必那样。
Or you're interacting with that thing in that way, I guess I'll do the same.
或者你以这种方式与那个东西互动，我想我也会做同样的事情。
But it's like the influence is from the animals that are closest to you and from your own personal experience.
但这就像来自离你最近的动物和你自己的个人经历的影响。
And we sort of stand on the shoulders of giants, we humans, because we can read people's thoughts that are thousands of years old, literally.
我们人类有点站在巨人的肩膀上，因为我们可以从字面上读懂人们几千年来的思想。
And so I think that's one of the biggest differences, I think, in our learning, is that we used to be called man, the tool maker, as if tool making would be the thing that set us apart from other animals, until Jane Goodall reported that she'd seen chimpanzees making tools, that termite fishing behavior that she saw, where they would break off a twig and take all the leaves off and then sharpen it so that they could insert it into a termite mound.
所以我认为，在我们的学习中，最大的区别之一就是我们过去被称为“人”，“工具制造者”，好像工具制造是我们与其他动物区别开来的东西，直到简·古道尔报告说，她看到黑猩猩制造工具，她看到了白蚁的捕鱼行为，他们会折断一根树枝，把所有的叶子都取下来，然后将其削尖，以便将其插入白蚁丘中。
And the termites would climb onto it, and they could carefully extract it and eat the termites.
白蚁会爬到上面，他们可以小心地把它拔出来并吃掉白蚁。
So they made these tools.
所以他们制作了这些工具。
So yeah, that would be, I guess, my first spontaneous reflection to your question.
是的，我想这将是我对你的问题的第一次自发反思。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a great one, frankly.
坦率地说，这是一件很棒的事情。
This idea that in addition to our ability to build sophisticated tools, that our ability to stamp down knowledge.
这个想法除了我们构建复杂工具的能力之外，还包括我们压制知识的能力。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
And knowledge is always shifting.
而且知识总是在变化。
So some of the things that we've been discussing today, and that I've said with great conviction, might be proven completely false a year from now.
因此，我们今天讨论的一些事情，以及我以坚定的信念所说的话，可能会在一年后被证明完全错误。
So that's, I think, the interesting thing about science, is that we're always having to question our assumptions.
所以，我认为，科学的有趣之处在于，我们总是不得不质疑我们的假设。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All right.
好吧。
I appreciate you reminding us of that, that this is all a dynamic process.
我感谢您提醒我们，这都是一个动态的过程。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
I know.
我知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We can only do so much with this piece of meat in our skulls in terms of trying to decipher the world around us.
就试图破译我们周围的世界而言，我们对头骨中的这块肉只能做这么多。
But I do think that this insight that we're unique in our ability to learn from things long ago, stamp down things now that-
但我确实认为，我们在很久以前就能够从事物中学习的能力是独一无二的，现在我们就可以压制这些事物——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
people could potentially learn from, not just in the present, but in the future-
人们不仅可以在现在，而且可以在未来从中学习——
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is incredible and in many ways appropriate for where we're at.
这是令人难以置信的，并且在很多方面都适合我们所处的位置。
Now, which is you sitting here educating us about the different species, and I really want to extend my gratitude for the work that you do is very unique.
现在，您坐在这里向我们介绍不同的物种，我真的很想对您所做的非常独特的工作表示感谢。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People by now will realize that you're animal ethologist, but you pay attention to real-world experiments run in a diverse range of settings.
人们现在会意识到您是动物行为学家，但您关注在各种环境中进行的现实世界实验。
And it's clear that you have great care for all the species on the planet and how they interact.
很明显，你们非常关心地球上的所有物种以及它们如何相互作用。
And you've also offered us some wonderful tools of how to improve the lives of our cats, our dogs, and to really hopefully make people somewhat of ethologists of themselves and of their interactions with animals.
您还为我们提供了一些很棒的工具，帮助我们改善猫、狗的生活，并真正希望使人们成为自己以及与动物互动的行为学家。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think that's, for me, one of the biggest takeaways today is to really, people listening to this and watching this should really reflect, not just on, does the dog like to be pet here or there, but how is it that a certain behavior is showing up in an animal?
我认为，对我来说，今天最大的收获之一是，人们听这个和看这个真的应该反思，而不仅仅是狗喜欢在这里或那里被宠物，但是某种行为是如何在动物身上表现出来的呢？
What is that reflective because of its natural lineage?
由于其自然血统而具有什么反射性？
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And our own, and to really think about those relationships and trying to improve them.
还有我们自己的，认真思考这些关系并努力改善它们。
So you've given us tremendous knowledge for its own sake, practical knowledge, and again, there's just so much care woven into everything you do that you've shared.
因此，您为我们提供了丰富的知识，实用的知识，而且，您所做的每件事都融入了如此多的关怀，您所分享的。
So thank you for traveling such a long way to share with us.
感谢您长途跋涉来与我们分享。
Dr. Karolina Westlund:
卡罗琳娜·韦斯特伦德博士：
Thank you for having me.
谢谢你有我。
It's been a great discussion, I think.
我认为这是一次很棒的讨论。
Thank you so much.
太感谢了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr Carolina Westlund.
感谢您参加今天与 Carolina Westlund 博士的讨论。
To learn more about her work and to find links to the various resources discussed during today's episode, please see the show note captions.
要了解有关她的工作的更多信息并查找今天节目中讨论的各种资源的链接，请参阅节目注释标题。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的关注按钮来关注播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。
And you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.
您现在可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客或嘉宾有意见，或者您希望我为 Huberman Lab 播客考虑的主题，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这本书是我花了五年多时间编写的，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验。
And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
它涵盖了从睡眠到运动再到压力控制的所有协议，以及与注意力和动机相关的协议，当然，我为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There you can find links to various vendors.
在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." And if you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab。
So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。
Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
同样，所有社交媒体平台上都是 Huberman Lab。
And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.
我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。
All of that is available completely zero cost.
所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to newsletter, and enter your email.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的菜单选项卡，向下滚动到时事通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件即可。
And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr Carolina Westlund.
再次感谢您参加今天与 Carolina Westlund 博士的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。