Transform Your Mental Health With Diet & Lifestyle | Dr. Chris Palmer
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Dr. Chris Palmer.
今天我的客人是克里斯·帕尔默博士。
Dr. Chris Palmer is a psychiatrist and researcher at Harvard University.
克里斯·帕尔默博士是哈佛大学的精神病学家和研究员。
He focuses on how metabolic health, and mitochondrial health in particular, can be leveraged to treat and, in some cases, cure psychiatric disorders including schizophrenia, autism, depression, bipolar, and ADHD.
他专注于如何利用代谢健康，特别是线粒体健康来治疗和在某些情况下治愈精神疾病，包括精神分裂症、自闭症、抑郁症、双相情感障碍和多动症。
Today, we discuss how metabolic health, something we hear a lot about nowadays, is really about mitochondrial health and the specific lifestyle and other factors that you can use to improve mitochondrial number and function.
今天，我们讨论当今我们经常听到的代谢健康如何真正与线粒体健康以及特定的生活方式和其他可用于改善线粒体数量和功能的因素有关。
We talk about things like exercise, sleep, sunlight, which you've heard about before, but we talk about those from a different perspective, and we discuss some things that have never been discussed before on this podcast, at least in light of mitochondrial health, things such as creatine, methylene blue, nicotine, and we talk about the key role of specific B vitamins and iron in brain function.
我们谈论运动、睡眠、阳光等你以前听说过的事情，但我们从不同的角度谈论这些事情，我们讨论了一些以前在这个播客中从未讨论过的事情，至少考虑到线粒体健康，比如肌酸、亚甲蓝、尼古丁，我们还讨论了特定 B 族维生素和铁在大脑功能中的关键作用。
We also have a very direct discussion about vaccines and whether or not inflammation caused by vaccines can potentially damage mitochondria, which then leads to mental health challenges.
我们还就疫苗以及疫苗引起的炎症是否可能损害线粒体进行了非常直接的讨论，从而导致心理健康挑战。
And of course, in that context, we discuss the vaccine autism debate.
当然，在这种背景下，我们讨论了关于疫苗自闭症的争论。
We also discuss public health and what is needed to truly change the way people exercise and eat, and the rapidly changing landscape of the National Institutes of Health and the CDC.
我们还讨论了公共卫生、真正改变人们锻炼和饮食方式所需的条件，以及美国国立卫生研究院和疾病预防控制中心快速变化的情况。
As you'll soon hear, Dr. Palmer gives us a master class on mitochondrial function and how to improve this vital aspect of our health.
您很快就会听到，帕尔默博士为我们举办了关于线粒体功能以及如何改善我们健康的这一重要方面的大师班。
If you've heard about metabolic health, you've heard about the obesity crisis, that's important, but looking at all of that and approaching it through the lens of mitochondrial health, you'll soon learn, is absolutely the way to go.
如果您听说过代谢健康，您听说过肥胖危机，这很重要，但是通过线粒体健康的视角来看待所有这些并接近它，您很快就会知道，这绝对是正确的出路。
It's a new perspective that will change the way that you think about mental and physical health, and that no doubt will impact your health practices in very positive ways.
这是一种新的视角，将改变您对身心健康的看法，毫无疑问将以非常积极的方式影响您的健康习惯。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, this episode does include sponsors.
为了与这个主题保持一致，这一集确实有赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Chris Palmer.
现在我与克里斯·帕尔默博士进行了讨论。
Dr. Chris Palmer, welcome back.
克里斯·帕尔默博士，欢迎回来。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Thank you so much for having me back.
非常感谢你让我回来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I credit you with leading the call to arms, the public awareness, and the implementation of what some people call metabolic psychiatry, but what we could easily just call the relationship between mental and physical health and the use of nutrition, supplementation, and, where appropriate, prescription drugs for the treatment of mental health.
我相信您领导了战斗号召、公众意识以及某些人所谓的代谢精神病学的实施，但我们可以简单地称之为精神和身体健康与使用营养、补充剂以及在适当情况下使用处方药来治疗精神健康之间的关系。
But what do you call this field that you've basically founded and that you're pioneering?
但你如何称呼这个由你基本上创立并正在开拓的领域呢？
There are others, but that you're pioneering.
还有其他的，但你是先驱。
And how should the general public think about the relationship between mitochondria and their mental health, for those that are not aware?
对于那些不了解的人来说，公众应该如何思考线粒体与心理健康之间的关系？
Educate us.
教育我们。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
I could talk for hours on this.
我可以就这个话题聊几个小时。
So first of all, thank you for-- I think you're actually giving me way too much credit, though.
首先，谢谢你——不过，我认为你实际上给了我太多的信任。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
I don't know about that.
我对此一无所知。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
I'm talking a lot about it, and I think I will accept that maybe I'm able to talk about it in a way that helps people understand it that other scientists haven't been able to.
我谈论了很多关于它的事情，我想我会接受这样的事实：也许我能够以一种其他科学家无法做到的方式帮助人们理解它。
But one of the more important reasons I want to say this is because unbeknownst to a lot of people, this field has actually been around for about a century and a half.
但我想说的更重要的原因之一是因为很多人不知道，这个领域实际上已经存在了大约一个半世纪。
Researchers in the 1800s, around the turn of the century, well up into the 1960s, were hyper-focused on the role of metabolism in severe mental illness, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder.
从 1800 年代到世纪之交，一直到 20 世纪 60 年代，研究人员都高度关注新陈代谢在严重精神疾病、精神分裂症和双相情感障碍中的作用。
They were actually measuring levels of lactate and glucose and other metabolic biomarkers in people with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder, documenting differences, really honing in on these metabolic disruptions as potentially the cause of mental illness.
他们实际上是在测量精神分裂症和双相情感障碍患者的乳酸、葡萄糖和其他代谢生物标志物的水平，记录差异，真正将这些代谢紊乱视为精神疾病的潜在原因。
And then our field lost its way.
然后我们的领域迷失了方向。
We became focused on neurotransmitters and assumed that they were the primary cause of mental illness, while other fields were focused on psychological and social factors.
我们开始关注神经递质，并认为它们是精神疾病的主要原因，而其他领域则关注心理和社会因素。
We got cognitive behavioral therapy.
我们接受了认知行为疗法。
We still had psychodynamic psychotherapy.
我们仍然进行心理动力学心理治疗。
But people were doing research on adverse childhood experiences.
但人们正在研究不良的童年经历。
That was really taking off, documenting that that's related.
这真的很成功，记录了相关的事情。
And so the field kind of splintered into these biological, psychological, social camps.
因此，这个领域就分裂成了这些生物、心理、社会阵营。
And people really hyper-focused in all of these ways.
人们在所有这些方面都非常专注。
To me, this field of integrating metabolism with mental health, with physical health, is about unifying that whole story.
对我来说，将新陈代谢与心理健康和身体健康相结合的领域是将整个故事统一起来。
It's about unifying and building on what these researchers 100 years ago were pursuing.
这是关于统一和发展这些研究人员 100 年前所追求的目标。
It's about integrating the biological, psychological, and social camps.
这是关于整合生物、心理和社会阵营。
It's about putting it all together and stop being so reductionistic and simplistic to suggest that it's all biological or it's all psychological or it's all social, and that if it's one, it can't be the other.
它是将所有这些放在一起，而不是如此还原论和简单化地暗示这都是生物性的、都是心理性的或都是社会性的，如果是其中之一，就不可能是另一个。
It can be all of them.
可以是全部。
And it's different combinations for different people.
对于不同的人来说，它有不同的组合。
So in many ways, I'm just standing on the shoulders of giants who have done groundbreaking work to create the science that allows us to put this all together.
因此，从很多方面来说，我只是站在巨人的肩膀上，他们做出了开创性的工作，创造了使我们能够将这一切整合在一起的科学。
With that said, I do firmly believe that we are on the cusp of A revolutionary change in the paradigm of the mental health field of how we think about mental illness.
话虽如此，我坚信我们正处于心理健康领域对精神疾病的看法发生革命性变化的风口浪尖。
There are myriad biological things.
有无数的生物事物。
The psychological and social things are all obvious and true.
心理和社会的事情都是显而易见和真实的。
Yes, stress, trauma, loneliness, adverse childhood experiences, all of those things come together.
是的，压力、创伤、孤独、不良的童年经历，所有这些都聚集在一起。
Our field has long known that all of those things play a role in mental illness.
我们的领域早就知道所有这些因素都会导致精神疾病。
Exactly which mental illnesses?
究竟是哪些心理疾病？
It's essentially all of them.
基本上是所有这些。
Every one of the labels in DSM-5 can be impacted by biological, psychological, and social factors.
DSM-5 中的每一项标签都会受到生物、心理和社会因素的影响。
So trauma in childhood increases risk for post-traumatic stress disorder.
因此，童年时期的创伤会增加患创伤后应激障碍的风险。
Duh.
呃。
Everybody knows that.
每个人都知道这一点。
Trauma in childhood also increases risk for neurodevelopmental disorders if it occurs early enough.
如果童年时期的创伤发生得足够早，也会增加神经发育障碍的风险。
It increases risk for substance use disorders, personality disorders, psychotic disorders, mood disorders, anxiety disorders, dementia later in life, and everything else, every label.
它增加了物质使用障碍、人格障碍、精神障碍、情绪障碍、焦虑症、晚年痴呆以及其他一切、每一个标签的风险。
What else do adverse childhood experiences increase risk for?
不良的童年经历还会增加哪些风险？
All of the metabolic disorders, obesity, type 2 diabetes, cardiovascular disease, autoimmune disorders, premature mortality.
所有的代谢紊乱、肥胖、2型糖尿病、心血管疾病、自身免疫性疾病、过早死亡。
We have statistics that, just sticking with that theme, adverse childhood experiences.
我们有统计数据表明，只要坚持这个主题，就会有不良的童年经历。
If you have six or more adverse childhood experiences compared to somebody who has no adverse childhood experiences, now that's a rare group, granted, but for the people who have six or more, on average, they live 20 years shorter.
如果你有 6 次或更多不良童年经历，与没有不良童年经历的人相比，这是一个罕见的群体，当然，但对于有 6 次或更多不良童年经历的人来说，他们的平均寿命要短 20 年。
They lose 20 years of life because of those adverse childhood experiences.
他们因为童年的不幸经历而失去了20年的生命。
And so is that a mental health issue?
那么这是一个心理健康问题吗？
I would say it's a physical health issue.
我想说这是一个身体健康问题。
It's both.
两者都是。
It's both a mental health issue and a physical health issue.
这既是一个心理健康问题，也是一个身体健康问题。
And so how can we understand that?
那么我们如何理解这一点呢？
How can we understand that trauma in childhood increases risk for heart disease and obesity and diabetes and dementia and PTSD and ADHD and substance use disorders, and the only way to connect it is through metabolism and ultimately through mitochondria.
我们如何理解童年时期的创伤会增加患心脏病、肥胖症、糖尿病、痴呆症、创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）、多动症（ADHD）和物质使用障碍的风险，而将其联系起来的唯一方法是通过新陈代谢，并最终通过线粒体。
Unfortunately, people like simple answers, and they're like, 'So diet will fix everything.' I'm like, 'No, I never said diet will fix everything.'
不幸的是，人们喜欢简单的答案，他们会说，“所以饮食可以解决一切问题。”我想，“不，我从来没有说过饮食可以解决一切问题。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it can help.
但它可以提供帮助。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
It can help, and it can be life-changing and life-saving.
它可以提供帮助，可以改变生活并拯救生命。
I don't want to minimize or step back from my work with dietary interventions.
我不想通过饮食干预来减少或退出我的工作。
There is no doubt in my mind it can dramatically change people's lives.
在我看来，毫无疑问它可以极大地改变人们的生活。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
But it's not just diet.
但这不仅仅是饮食。
It's lots of other things.
还有很多其他的事情。
And so it's putting it together and trying to make sense of the science for what does cardiovascular disease have to do with depression or PTSD?
因此，它将它们放在一起，并试图从科学角度解释心血管疾病与抑郁症或创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）有什么关系？
On the surface, a lot of people scratch their heads, and they really don't know.
表面上看，很多人摸不着头脑，其实也不知道。
They assume that one's a brain disorder and one's a heart disorder, and it's like, no. We need to integrate that because all of the risk factors, essentially the same biopsychosocial risk factors that increase risk for heart disease also increase risk for brain disease.
他们认为一个人患有大脑疾病，一个人患有心脏病，但事实证明，不。我们需要整合这一点，因为所有的风险因素，本质上是相同的生物心理社会风险因素，会增加心脏病的风险，也会增加脑部疾病的风险。
And we need to start putting it together.
我们需要开始将它们整合在一起。
We need to be more sophisticated.
我们需要变得更加成熟。
We have computers.
我们有电脑。
We have AI.
我们有人工智能。
It's 2025.
现在是 2025 年。
We can do better.
我们可以做得更好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yes.
是的。
Well, first of all, I, and I'm sure the listeners, really appreciate your humility regarding who's responsible for the big surge in the interest in this field.
好吧，首先，我（我相信听众们）非常感谢您对于谁应该对这一领域的兴趣激增负责的谦虚态度。
So thanks for crediting your predecessors and the others in the field.
因此，感谢您对您的前辈和该领域其他人的认可。
At the same time, I credit you with really popularizing a lot of these terms, being willing to go public-facing and share about metabolic psychiatry, for lack of a better way to put it, metabolic psychiatry, and really championing these ideas and being open to being part of a medical and science and public discourse community.
与此同时，我相信你真正普及了许多这些术语，愿意面向公众分享代谢精神病学，因为缺乏更好的方式来表达它，代谢精神病学，并真正拥护这些想法，并愿意成为医学、科学和公共话语社区的一部分。
So I'd be remiss if I didn't say that.
所以如果我不这么说那就是我的失职。
So hopefully you'll take that in, and if you won't, then-
所以希望你能接受这一点，如果你不接受，那么——
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
I very much appreciate it.
我非常感激。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All right.
好吧。
Well, it's true.
嗯，这是真的。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Thank you very much.
非常感谢。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's true, and I'm not alone in that sentiment.
这是真的，而且我并不是唯一有这种想法的人。
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Our Place.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商“我们的地方”。
Our Place makes my favorite pots, pans, and other cookware.
我们的地方生产我最喜欢的锅、平底锅和其他炊具。
Surprisingly toxic compounds such as PFAS or forever chemicals are still found in 80% of non-stick pans, as well as utensils, appliances, and countless other kitchen products.
令人惊讶的是，80% 的不粘锅以及餐具、电器和无数其他厨房产品中仍然含有 PFAS 或永久化学物质等有毒化合物。
As I've discussed on this podcast, these PFAS or forever chemicals like Teflon have been linked to major health issues such as hormone disruption, gut microbiome disruption, fertility issues, and many other health concerns.
正如我在本播客中讨论的那样，这些 PFAS 或特氟龙等永久性化学物质与激素破坏、肠道微生物组破坏、生育问题和许多其他健康问题等重大健康问题有关。
So it's really important to avoid them.
因此，避免它们非常重要。
This is why I'm a huge fan of Our Place.
这就是为什么我是《我们的地方》的超级粉丝。
Our Place products are made with the highest quality materials and are all PFAS and toxin-free.
我们的 Place 产品采用最优质的材料制成，不含 PFAS 和毒素。
I particularly love their Titanium Always Pan Pro.
我特别喜欢他们的 Titanium Always Pan Pro。
It's the first non-stick pan made with zero chemicals and zero coating.
这是第一个采用零化学品和零涂层制成的不粘锅。
Instead, it's pure titanium.
相反，它是纯钛。
This means it has no harmful forever chemicals and that it doesn't degrade or lose its non-stick effect over time.
这意味着它不含永久有害的化学物质，并且不会随着时间的推移而降解或失去不粘效果。
It's also beautiful to look at.
看起来也很漂亮。
I cook eggs in my Titanium Always Pan Pro almost every morning.
我几乎每天早上都会用 Titanium Always Pan Pro 煮鸡蛋。
The design allows for the eggs to cook perfectly and without sticking to the pan.
该设计使鸡蛋能够完美烹饪并且不会粘在锅上。
I also cook burgers and steaks in it, and it puts a really nice sear on the meat.
我还用它来做汉堡和牛排，它给肉带来了非常好的烤焦效果。
But again, nothing sticks to it, so it's really easy to clean and even dishwasher safe.
但同样，没有任何东西粘在上面，所以它非常容易清洁，甚至可以用洗碗机清洗。
I love it, and I use it constantly.
我喜欢它，并且经常使用它。
Our Place now has a full line of Titanium Pro cookware that uses this first-of-its-kind titanium non-stick technology.
我们的地方现在拥有全系列 Titanium Pro 炊具，采用这种首创的钛不粘技术。
So if you're looking for non-toxic, long-lasting pots and pans, go to fromourplace.com/huberman and use the code Huberman for 10% off your order.
因此，如果您正在寻找无毒、耐用的锅碗瓢盆，请访问 fromourplace.com/huberman 并使用代码 Huberman 享受订单 10% 的折扣。
With a 100-day risk-free trial, free shipping, and free returns, you can experience this fantastic cookware with zero risk.
通过 100 天无风险试用、免费送货和免费退货，您可以零风险体验这款出色的炊具。
Again, that's fromourplace.com/huberman to get 10% off.
再次强调，来自ourplace.com/huberman 可以享受 10% 的折扣。
Today's episode is also brought to us by LMNT.
今天的节目也是LMNT给我们带来的。
LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need, but nothing you don't.
LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您所需的一切，但没有您不需要的。
That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in the correct ratios, but no sugar.
这意味着电解质、钠、镁和钾的比例都正确，但不含糖。
Proper hydration is critical for optimal brain and body function.
适当的水合作用对于大脑和身体的最佳功能至关重要。
Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish cognitive and physical performance.
即使是轻微程度的脱水也会降低认知和身体表现。
It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes.
获得充足的电解质也很重要。
The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, are vital for the functioning of all the cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells.
电解质（钠、镁和钾）对于体内所有细胞（尤其是神经元或神经细胞）的功能至关重要。
Drinking LMNT dissolved in water makes it extremely easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes.
饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT 可以非常轻松地确保您获得足够的水分和电解质。
To make sure that I'm getting proper amounts of hydration and electrolytes, I dissolve one packet of LMNT in about 16 to 32 ounces of water when I wake up in the morning, and I drink that basically first thing in the morning.
为了确保我获得适量的水合作用和电解质，当我早上醒来时，我将一包 LMNT 溶解在大约 16 至 32 盎司的水中，并且我基本上早上第一件事就是喝它。
I also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and therefore losing a lot of water and electrolytes.
我还会在进行任何体育锻炼时饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT，尤其是在炎热的天气里，因为我会大量出汗，从而失去大量的水和电解质。
They have a bunch of different great-tasting flavors of LMNT.
他们有多种不同口味的 LMNT。
They have watermelon, citrus, et cetera.
他们有西瓜、柑橘等。
Frankly, I love them all.
坦白说，我爱他们所有人。
If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with the purchase of any LMNT drink mix.
如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman，购买任何 LMNT 混合饮料即可领取免费 LMNT 样品包。
Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.
再次强调，请访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman 索取免费样品包。
If I think about a mental health condition, like depression, let's take depression to start off.
如果我想到一种心理健康状况，比如抑郁症，那么我们就从抑郁症开始吧。
I can just broadly create two columns of things or approaches that one might take.
我可以大致创建两列人们可能采取的事情或方法。
One is this mental model of sort of a molecule deficiency.
其中之一是这种分子缺陷的心理模型。
I'm not saying this, but there are many who at one point thought depression is related to a deficiency in serotonin, or depression is related to a deficiency in dopamine, either levels, regulation, enzymatic control, whatever the level of control.
我不是这么说的，但有很多人一度认为抑郁症与血清素缺乏有关，或者抑郁症与多巴胺缺乏有关，无论是水平、调节、酶控制，无论控制水平如何。
Just this idea that these molecules are somehow lacking.
只是这些分子在某种程度上缺乏的想法。
If you put them back, you can relieve some symptoms of depression.
如果你把它们放回去，你可以缓解一些抑郁症状。
The other column that comes to mind for me, having looked at the data on cognitive behavioral therapy, on the data on psychedelics in the clinical setting for the treatment of depression, SSRIs, and other so-called antidepressants, is this notion of neuroplasticity, the idea that neural circuits can change and that neural circuits control our sense of well-being, our perception of self, perception of others, feelings of agency, et cetera.
在研究了认知行为疗法的数据、临床环境中用于治疗抑郁症的迷幻药、SSRIs和其他所谓的抗抑郁药的数据后，我想到的另一篇专栏是神经可塑性的概念，即神经回路可以改变，神经回路控制着我们的幸福感、我们对自我的感知、对他人的感知、代理感等。
And it's now very clear that if you change levels of neuromodulators like dopamine, like serotonin, you don't necessarily cure depression, but you open a window for plasticity, and then perhaps the therapy that you're doing can modify brain circuits more robustly.
现在非常清楚的是，如果你改变多巴胺、血清素等神经调节剂的水平，你不一定能治愈抑郁症，但你打开了可塑性的窗口，然后也许你正在做的治疗可以更强有力地改变大脑回路。
So I think in terms of molecule deficiency, maybe it's a vitamin deficiency, a neuromodulator deficiency.
所以我认为就分子缺乏而言，可能是维生素缺乏，神经调节剂缺乏。
And then I also think about plasticity, that these treatments are just allowing for more brain change more rapidly.
然后我还想到了可塑性，这些治疗只是让大脑更快地发生变化。
What other columns would you add to that picture?
您还会向该图片添加哪些其他列？
And perhaps first, do you think that picture is woefully inadequate or just partially inadequate?
也许首先，您认为这张图片严重不充分还是部分不充分？
Because I think this is the way most people think about the treatment of mental health.
因为我认为这是大多数人思考心理健康治疗的方式。
They think, oh, there's something missing.
他们认为，哦，缺少一些东西。
You take a drug and you get that thing back.
你吸了一种药，你就会把那东西找回来。
And then like ADHD, you don't have enough dopamine, or you put it in and then all of a sudden attentional circuits work better, this kind of thing, versus plasticity, which is the modification of those circuits.
然后就像多动症一样，你没有足够的多巴胺，或者你把它放进去，然后突然注意回路工作得更好，这种事情，与可塑性相比，这是对这些回路的修改。
And the two things are not mutually exclusive, but I think until now there really hasn't been a clear understanding that there are other columns for mechanistic change in mental health.
这两件事并不相互排斥，但我认为到目前为止，人们还没有真正清楚地认识到心理健康还有其他机械变化的专栏。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
I would say the concept of metabolism, metabolic regulation, mitochondrial function, mitochondrial health actually is an umbrella concept for everything you've just said.
我想说，新陈代谢、代谢调节、线粒体功能、线粒体健康的概念实际上是你刚才所说的所有内容的总括概念。
It's an umbrella concept for, well, how do we create neurotransmitters?
这是一个总括概念，我们如何创造神经递质？
Where do these neurotransmitters come from?
这些神经递质从哪里来？
What regulates their production release from cells?
是什么调节细胞的生产释放？
And then even to go further, what impact do those neurotransmitters have on other cells?
更进一步，这些神经递质对其他细胞有什么影响？
They are largely regulating brain metabolism, and the way we usually think about it is they are regulating brain activity.
它们在很大程度上调节大脑的新陈代谢，我们通常认为它们在调节大脑活动。
But if you ask the question, well, what is brain activity?
但如果你问这个问题，那么什么是大脑活动？
Brain activity is fueled by metabolism.
大脑活动由新陈代谢推动。
A neuron cannot be active unless it has the capacity to increase its ATP kind of production.
除非神经元有能力增加 ATP 的产生，否则它无法活跃。
And then when you suppress a neuron, when you inhibit its function, the ATP production goes down.
然后，当你抑制神经元、抑制其功能时，ATP 的产生就会下降。
So whether you want to think of metabolism as just a consequence of neural activity, I actually think about it as an integral part of neural activity.
因此，无论您是否想将新陈代谢视为神经活动的结果，我实际上都将其视为神经活动的一个组成部分。
It's kind of like your car can't go without the engine.
这有点像你的车没有引擎就无法行驶。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
A cell can't go without mitochondria.
细胞不能没有线粒体。
A cell can't do what it's supposed to do without mitochondria.
如果没有线粒体，细胞就无法做它应该做的事情。
The other concept that you mentioned, neuroplasticity.
你提到的另一个概念是神经可塑性。
Neuroplasticity is all about energy and metabolic resources to create new connections, new neural connections between axons, dendrites, somas, other aspects of neurons and cells and other types of cells, astrocytes, oligodendrocytes.
神经可塑性是关于能量和代谢资源，以在轴突、树突、体细胞、神经元和细胞的其他方面以及其他类型的细胞、星形胶质细胞、少突胶质细胞之间创建新的连接、新的神经连接。
But in order to get neuroplasticity, neuroplasticity implies growth and modulation and even pruning, but it involves change.
但为了获得神经可塑性，神经可塑性意味着生长和调节甚至修剪，但它涉及改变。
And in order for a living organism to change, that requires this foundational concept of metabolism.
为了使生物体发生变化，需要新陈代谢这个基本概念。
Now, on the surface, to a lot of people, that sounds too abstract, and it sounds like, well, that's ridiculous then if you're saying that metabolism is everything in biology.
现在，从表面上看，对很多人来说，这听起来太抽象了，如果你说新陈代谢就是生物学中的一切，那么这听起来很荒谬。
And I kind of am.
我也是。
Of course it is.
当然是。
You can't talk about biology without talking about metabolism.
谈论生物学就不能不谈论新陈代谢。
But when you talk about metabolic health, it becomes much more concrete, pragmatic, and real with real tools that you talk about all of the time on this podcast.
但当你谈论代谢健康时，通过你在这个播客中一直谈论的真实工具，它会变得更加具体、务实和真实。
Exercise promotes metabolic health.
运动促进新陈代谢健康。
Exercise promotes neuroplasticity.
运动促进神经可塑性。
They are inseparable.
他们是密不可分的。
You can't improve your metabolic health without also at least opening up the opportunity for neuroplasticity.
如果不至少为神经可塑性提供机会，就无法改善代谢健康。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Improving your diet does the same thing.
改善饮食也能起到同样的作用。
Sleep or lack thereof can impact this.
睡眠或睡眠不足会影响这一点。
Substance use can impact this.
药物的使用会影响这一点。
And so, in a way, it basically says, let's connect all of the dots.
所以，在某种程度上，它基本上是说，让我们把所有的点连接起来。
Let's not hyper-focus on serotonin and a serotonin imbalance or deficiency as the singular cause of depression.
我们不要过度关注血清素和血清素失衡或缺乏作为抑郁症的单一原因。
Because for those of you who don't know, that is ridiculously reductionistic.
因为对于那些不知道的人来说，这是可笑的简化论。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
And it is absolutely not true.
这绝对不是真的。
We know that.
我们知道这一点。
We know that with certainty now.
我们现在可以肯定地知道这一点。
The whole serotonin hypothesis of depression came about not because researchers identified serotonin deficits in the brain.
抑郁症的整个血清素假说的出现并不是因为研究人员发现大脑中血清素缺乏。
That entire concept came from the observation that medications that modulate serotonin activity or inhibit its reuptake into neurons, those medications, SSRIs, other types of antidepressants, those medications can reduce the symptoms of depression in some people.
整个概念来自于这样的观察：调节血清素活性或抑制其重新摄取到神经元中的药物，这些药物，SSRIs，其他类型的抗抑郁药，这些药物可以减轻某些人的抑郁症状。
That was just a purely serendipitous finding.
这纯粹是一个偶然的发现。
It was serendipity.
这是机缘巧合。
The first antidepressant was actually a tuberculosis treatment.
第一种抗抑郁药实际上是治疗肺结核。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
They were giving it to patients on a tuberculosis ward, and an astute infectious disease doctor noticed some of these patients are really depressed.
他们把它给肺结核病房的病人服用，一位精明的传染病医生注意到其中一些病人真的很沮丧。
But when I give them this tuberculosis treatment, they perk up.
但当我给他们进行结核病治疗时，他们就精神起来了。
Within a few weeks, they start looking a lot less depressed, and I don't think it's a coincidence.
几周之内，他们看起来开始不再那么沮丧，我不认为这是巧合。
I think it's the medication I'm giving them.
我想这是我给他们的药物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you recall what the drug was?
你还记得那是什么药吗？
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Ipr “.iazide.
Ipr“.iazide。
It's the first MAO inhibitor.
它是第一个 MAO 抑制剂。
And I could be saying the name wrong, but it's the first MAO inhibitor.
我可能说错了名字，但它是第一个 MAO 抑制剂。
And that became the first antidepressant.
这成为第一种抗抑郁药。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which makes sense.
这是有道理的。
MAO inhibitors inhibit the enzymes that break down, or let's just speak about these enzymes broadly.
MAO 抑制剂抑制分解的酶，或者让我们广泛地讨论这些酶。
I think most antidepressant drugs or treatments for ADHD, typical prescription treatments, either reduce the breakdown of neuromodulators like serotonin, dopamine, acetylcholine, depending on which one we're talking about, or they reduce the reuptake so that there's just more neuromodulator around for longer.
我认为大多数抗抑郁药物或治疗多动症的药物，典型的处方治疗，要么减少血清素、多巴胺、乙酰胆碱等神经调节剂的分解，这取决于我们谈论的是哪一种，要么减少再摄取，以便有更多的神经调节剂存在更长时间。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Tell us about mitochondria in the framework of mental health.
告诉我们心理健康框架中的线粒体。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
So most people know mitochondria as the powerhouse of the cell, if they know it at all, so these tiny little organelles.
所以大多数人都知道线粒体是细胞的动力源，如果他们知道的话，那么这些微小的细胞器也是如此。
And the powerhouse of the cell reference means that mitochondria take the breakdown products of the food that we're eating.
细胞参考的动力源意味着线粒体会吸收我们所吃食物的分解产物。
They are the primary thing using the oxygen that we're breathing in.
它们是使用我们呼吸的氧气的主要物质。
They are creating the carbon dioxide that we're breathing out, and that they are turning food into ATP, which is the energy currency of the cell.
它们产生我们呼出的二氧化碳，并将食物转化为 ATP，这是细胞的能量货币。
So they're taking food and oxygen and lots of other things, but let's just simplify.
所以他们需要食物、氧气和很多其他东西，但让我们简化一下。
Food and oxygen, converting it into ATP, and that is what the powerhouse of the cell refers to.
食物和氧气，将其转化为ATP，这就是细胞的动力室所指的。
There is no doubt they do that.
毫无疑问他们会这么做。
There is no doubt that when that process stops, humans have about six minutes or so, and then we're dead.
毫无疑问，当这个过程停止时，人类大约有六分钟左右的时间，然后我们就死了。
That process is critical to life.
这个过程对生命至关重要。
There is no other process in the human body that you can disrupt that will kill the organism faster.
人体内没有任何其他过程可以破坏，从而更快地杀死有机体。
It is central to living organisms, this production of ATP.
它是生物体的核心，即 ATP 的产生。
So I don't at all mean to take away or minimize that function, but research over the last 25 years has completely upended that simplistic notion of what mitochondria are doing.
所以我并不是要取消或最小化这种功能，但过去 25 年的研究完全颠覆了线粒体功能的简单化概念。
They are actually doing so much more.
他们实际上做了更多的事情。
Some people have created the reference that mitochondria are like the workers inside a cell.
有些人提出线粒体就像细胞内的工人一样。
That in order for a cell to work, you need a workforce because there's so much that needs to be done.
为了让细胞正常工作，你需要劳动力，因为需要做的事情太多了。
Signals need to be sent.
需要发送信号。
All this work, all of these different things need to be functioning.
所有这些工作，所有这些不同的东西都需要发挥作用。
And mitochondria are absolutely providing the energy for those things to happen, but they're also orchestrating a lot of it.
线粒体绝对为这些事情的发生提供了能量，但它们也精心策划了很多事情。
So for example They play a direct role in converting food into some of the substrates for the production of neurotransmitters.
例如，它们在将食物转化为产生神经递质的某些底物方面发挥着直接作用。
But they also go further.
但他们还走得更远。
They store some neurotransmitters like GABA within themselves, and that plays a role in GABA's release from a neuron.
它们在体内储存一些神经递质，例如 GABA，这在神经元释放 GABA 的过程中发挥着作用。
They actually go to the cell membrane and move along the membrane dispensing vesicles of neurotransmitters.
它们实际上进入细胞膜并沿着膜分配神经递质囊泡移动。
And when you take the mitochondria away from the synapse, but provide that synapse with ATP, vesicles don't get released.
当你将线粒体从突触中取出，但为该突触提供 ATP 时，囊泡不会被释放。
Neurotransmitters aren't getting released.
神经递质没有被释放。
The mitochondria are doing more, we don't exactly know what, but they're doing more than just providing the energy.
线粒体正在做更多的事情，我们不知道具体是什么，但它们所做的不仅仅是提供能量。
They play a role in turning inflammation and immune cells both on and off.
它们在开启和关闭炎症和免疫细胞方面发挥着作用。
They help start the process, but they also help coordinate the cessation of that process.
他们帮助启动该过程，但也帮助协调该过程的停止。
They play an instrumental role in both the first and the last step in the synthesis of cortisol, and they play a role in the first step in the synthesis of all of the steroid hormones, which include estrogen, testosterone, progesterone.
它们在皮质醇合成的第一步和最后一步中发挥着重要作用，并且在所有类固醇激素（包括雌激素、睾酮、黄体酮）合成的第一步中发挥着重要作用。
So that if you have dysregulation of cortisol, or if you have dysregulation of testosterone or estrogen or progesterone, you must understand the role of mitochondria in that dysregulation, because they are critical in the production and release of these hormones.
因此，如果您有皮质醇失调，或者如果您有睾酮、雌激素或黄体酮失调，您必须了解线粒体在这种失调中的作用，因为它们在这些激素的产生和释放中至关重要。
They are the primary regulator of epigenetics.
它们是表观遗传学的主要调节因子。
So epigenetics are the expression of genes from the cell nucleus, and researchers have long known that that's related to levels of reactive oxygen species.
因此，表观遗传学是细胞核基因的表达，研究人员很早就知道这与活性氧水平有关。
It's related to levels of calcium.
这与钙的含量有关。
It's related to other cell signals.
它与其他细胞信号有关。
Those cell signals are mostly originating within mitochondria.
这些细胞信号主要源自线粒体。
During the development of any cell, mitochondria, they are like a universe unto themselves, and there's so much we don't know about them.
在任何细胞（线粒体）的发育过程中，它们本身就像一个宇宙，而且我们对它们还有很多不了解的地方。
But what researchers have found is that mitochondria actually line up, literally line up in an organized fashion around the cell nucleus and take on different conformations.
但研究人员发现，线粒体实际上是排列的，实际上是以有组织的方式排列在细胞核周围，并呈现出不同的构象。
And that is somehow sending signals to the genes to result in the expression or the suppression of different genes from the nucleus.
这就是以某种方式向基因发送信号，导致细胞核中不同基因的表达或抑制。
And that when researchers take these mitochondria and mess them up or something, the cell doesn't develop normally.
当研究人员将这些线粒体弄乱或发生其他事情时，细胞就无法正常发育。
They've been implicated in all of the phases of the human stress response to psychological stress.
它们参与了人类对心理压力的压力反应的所有阶段。
So that includes cortisol release, noradrenaline release, it includes inflammation, and it includes epigenetic changes.
这包括皮质醇释放、去甲肾上腺素释放、炎症和表观遗传变化。
So those are the four buckets of the human stress response, cortisol, adrenaline, inflammation, and epigenetic changes.
这就是人类压力反应的四个部分：皮质醇、肾上腺素、炎症和表观遗传变化。
And researchers actually manipulated mitochondrial genes, two genes in the cell nucleus that control for mitochondrial proteins, and two genes in mitochondria themselves.
研究人员实际上操纵了线粒体基因，即细胞核中控制线粒体蛋白质的两个基因，以及线粒体本身的两个基因。
And by manipulating these four different genes, one at a time in mice, they could impact all of the four aspects of the stress response.
通过在小鼠体内一次操纵这四种不同的基因，它们可以影响应激反应的所有四个方面。
And so what that means is that mitochondria are somehow involved in regulating the human stress response.
这意味着线粒体在某种程度上参与了人类应激反应的调节。
And so the way that I think about it is that, and the way that many researchers actually think about it now, is that mitochondria, there are hundreds, sometimes thousands of them in our cells, in each of our cells.
所以我的想法是，现在许多研究人员实际上的想法是，线粒体在我们的细胞中，在我们的每个细胞中都有数百个，有时甚至数千个。
Most neurons have thousands of mitochondria.
大多数神经元都有数千个线粒体。
The mitochondria are actually moving around.
线粒体实际上在四处移动。
They use the cytoskeleton to move around the cell.
他们利用细胞骨架在细胞周围移动。
They fuse with each other.
他们彼此融合。
It's called mitochondrial dynamics.
这就是所谓的线粒体动力学。
They change shape, they do all sorts of things, and again, that impacts all of these signaling processes.
它们改变形状，做各种各样的事情，并且再次影响所有这些信号传导过程。
But that's just within one little cell.
但这只是在一个小牢房内。
So you can think of one cell as almost a village of mitochondria, that they're all just doing different things and working together to help that cell function.
因此，您可以将一个细胞视为几乎是一个线粒体村，它们都只是做不同的事情并共同努力帮助该细胞发挥功能。
But in fact, when you think about hormones like cortisol, you can think about it as a way for mitochondria in one cell to produce cortisol that then gets sent to mitochondria in another cell to make that other cell do something, to either increase its activity or decrease its activity.
但事实上，当您想到皮质醇等激素时，您可以将其视为一个细胞中的线粒体产生皮质醇的一种方式，然后皮质醇被发送到另一个细胞中的线粒体，使另一个细胞做某事，以增加其活性或降低其活性。
Some people actually think about human cells as just a network of mitochondria.
有些人实际上认为人类细胞只是一个线粒体网络。
Mitochondria throughout the body and brain are just doing all sorts of things.
遍布身体和大脑的线粒体正在做各种各样的事情。
And at the end of the day, we come back to just common sense.
最终，我们回到常识。
At the end of the day, it's about helping the organism adapt and survive.
归根结底，这是为了帮助有机体适应和生存。
Ultimately, organisms, rule number one, they need to survive.
最终，生物体的第一条规则是，它们需要生存。
Rule number two, they need to reproduce, and rule number three, they need to adapt.
第二条规则，他们需要复制，第三条规则，他们需要适应。
And mitochondria are playing a foundational role in all of those basic aspects of organismal survival.
线粒体在生物体生存的所有这些基本方面发挥着基础性作用。
And again, to some people, "Well, that's so high level.
再次，对一些人来说，“嗯，这水平太高了。
That's like what you're saying, it's everything." I'm like, "Yeah, it kind of is." And mental health falls under it.
就像你说的那样，这就是一切。”我想，“是的，有点像。”心理健康也属于其中。
How could we think about mental health without thinking about the big picture?
如果不考虑大局，我们怎么能考虑心理健康呢？
Let's start with the big picture, and then let's put health into it, and let's put the lack of adaptation or the lack of survival or these other things.
让我们从大局开始，然后让我们把健康放进去，让我们把缺乏适应或缺乏生存或其他这些东西放进去。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and thank our sponsor, AG1.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。
AG1 is an all-in-one vitamin mineral probiotic drink with adaptogens.
AG1 是一种含有适应原的一体化维生素矿物质益生菌饮料。
I've been taking AG1 daily since 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring this podcast.
自 2012 年以来，我每天都服用 AG1，所以我很高兴他们赞助这个播客。
The reason I started taking AG1, and the reason I still take AG1, is because it is the highest quality and most complete foundational nutritional supplement.
我开始服用 AG1 的原因，以及我仍然服用 AG1 的原因，是因为它是最高品质和最完整的基础营养补充剂。
What that means is that AG1 ensures that you're getting all the necessary vitamins, minerals, and other micronutrients to form a strong foundation for your daily health.
这意味着 AG1 可确保您获得所有必需的维生素、矿物质和其他微量营养素，为您的日常健康奠定坚实的基础。
AG1 also has probiotics and prebiotics that support a healthy gut microbiome.
AG1 还含有支持健康肠道微生物群的益生菌和益生元。
Your gut microbiome consists of trillions of microorganisms that line your digestive tract and impact things such as your immune system status, your metabolic health, your hormone health, and much more.
您的肠道微生物组由数万亿微生物组成，这些微生物排列在您的消化道中，并影响您的免疫系统状态、代谢健康、激素健康等。
So I've consistently found that when I take AG1 daily, my digestion is improved, my immune system is more robust, and my mood and mental focus are at their best.
因此，我一直发现，当我每天服用 AG1 时，我的消化能力得到改善，我的免疫系统更加强大，我的情绪和精神集中度也处于最佳状态。
In fact, if I could take just one supplement, that supplement would be AG1.
事实上，如果我只能服用一种补充剂，那么该补充剂就是 AG1。
If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 申请特别优惠。
They'll give you five free travel packs plus a year's supply of vitamin D3 K2 with your order of AG1.
您订购 AG1 时，他们将赠送您五个免费旅行包以及一年的维生素 D3 K2。
Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim this special offer.
请再次访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 领取此特别优惠。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Eight Sleep.
今天的节目也是八觉给我们带来的。
Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity.
August Sleep 生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。
Now, I've spoken before on this podcast about the critical need for us to get adequate amounts of quality sleep each and every night.
现在，我之前在这个播客上谈到过我们迫切需要每晚获得充足的优质睡眠。
Now, one of the best ways to ensure a great night's sleep is to ensure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct.
现在，确保一夜好眠的最佳方法之一是确保睡眠环境的温度正确。
And that's because in order to fall and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop about one to three degrees.
这是因为为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，您的体温实际上必须下降约一到三度。
And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees.
为了醒来时感觉神清气爽、精力充沛，您的体温实际上必须升高约一到三度。
Eight Sleep automatically regulates the temperature of your bed throughout the night according to your unique needs.
八睡眠会根据您的独特需求自动调节整个晚上的床温。
Now, I find that extremely useful because I like to make the bed really cool at the beginning of the night, even colder in the middle of the night, and warm as I wake up.
现在，我发现这非常有用，因为我喜欢让床在半夜变得非常凉爽，在半夜变得更冷，而在我醒来时变得温暖。
That's what gives me the most slow-wave sleep and rapid eye movement sleep.
这就是给我最慢波睡眠和快速动眼睡眠的原因。
And I know that because Eight Sleep has a great sleep tracker that tells me how well I've slept and the types of sleep that I'm getting throughout the night.
我知道这一点，因为八睡眠有一个很棒的睡眠追踪器，它可以告诉我我的睡眠质量以及我整晚的睡眠类型。
I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for four years now, and it has completely transformed and improved the quality of my sleep.
我已经睡在八睡眠床垫套上四年了，它彻底改变并改善了我的睡眠质量。
Their latest model, the Pod 4 Ultra, also has snoring detection that will automatically lift your head a few degrees in order to improve your airflow and stop you from snoring.
他们的最新型号 Pod 4 Ultra 还具有打鼾检测功能，可以自动将您的头部抬起几度，以改善气流并阻止您打鼾。
If you decide to try Eight Sleep, you have 30 days to try it at home, and you can return it if you don't like it, no questions asked.
如果您决定尝试八睡眠，您有 30 天的时间在家试用，如果您不喜欢，可以无条件退货。
But I'm sure that you'll love it.
但我确信您会喜欢它。
Go to eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $350 off your Pod 4 Ultra.
前往八睡眠.com/huberman 购买 Pod 4 Ultra 最高可节省 350 美元。
Eight Sleep ships to many countries worldwide, including Mexico and the UAE.
八号睡眠船运往世界各地的许多国家，包括墨西哥和阿联酋。
Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $350 off your Pod 4 Ultra.
再次强调，访问八sleep.com/huberman，您的 Pod 4 Ultra 最高可节省 350 美元。
What are some of the things that we know can improve mitochondrial health, either number, function, or otherwise?
我们知道哪些因素可以改善线粒体健康，无论是数量、功能还是其他方面？
And maybe we can talk about the basics first and get a little bit granular, if you could, about what are the prescriptions for keeping your mitochondria healthy or improving your mitochondrial number and improving their function.
也许我们可以先讨论基础知识，如果可以的话，我们可以更详细地了解保持线粒体健康或改善线粒体数量和改善其功能的处方是什么。
And then we can transition from there to the more advanced ways of doing that.
然后我们可以从那里过渡到更先进的方法。
Is there a role for supplementation?
有补充的作用吗？
Is there a role for drugs?
药物有作用吗？
These days, I hear about urolithin A, because I'm a little bit of an adventurer these days, and I'm turning 50 later this year.
这些天，我听说了尿石素 A，因为我现在有点冒险家的感觉，而且今年晚些时候我就 50 岁了。
I decided to experiment with a peptide that is SR31, which is specifically to improve mitochondrial function.
我决定尝试一种肽 SR31，它专门用于改善线粒体功能。
I'm doing this with the full understanding it may do nothing or it may kill me.
我这样做时充分理解它可能毫无作用，或者可能会杀了我。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Let's hope not.
我们希望不会。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But we'll find out.
但我们会发现的。
But someone had to do it, and I'm a one variable at a time kind of guy.
但总得有人这么做，而我就是那种一次只有一个变量的人。
So it was important for me to stay with my current regimen and only change that, do blood work, et cetera, because some people out there are more in the mode of trying to do a bunch of things, and I don't think that's as helpful to me.
因此，对我来说，坚持目前的养生法很重要，只改变它，做血液检查等，因为有些人更多地尝试做很多事情，我认为这对我没有帮助。
It's also just not-
这也只是不-
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
It's not
这不是
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's not in keeping with my nature.
这不符合我的本性。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
You're a scientist.
你是一位科学家。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm a scientist.
我是一名科学家。
One variable at a time.
一次一个变量。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
You're a scientist.
你是一位科学家。
That is great.
那太好了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's right.
没错。
I'm monogamous with respect to variables.
我对于变量是一夫一妻制的。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
It is great.
太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
So what can we do at a basic level to keep and improve our mitochondrial number and function?
那么我们可以在基础层面上做些什么来保持和改善我们的线粒体数量和功能呢？
And if we have to hit on some of the usual suspects, fine.
如果我们必须找到一些常见的嫌疑人，那也可以。
But if you could tell us how we can do this.
但如果你能告诉我们如何做到这一点。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
So I'm really going to start with the basics, and they're going to sound cliché, and they're going to sound too basic to most people.
所以我真的要从基础知识开始，它们听起来很陈词滥调，而且对大多数人来说听起来太基础了。
And I just want to set the stage for even for severe mental illness, we can talk about strategies that will work.
我只是想为即使是严重的精神疾病，我们也可以讨论有效的策略奠定基础。
And these strategies that I'm going to describe are not really appropriate.
我将要描述的这些策略并不真正合适。
Like when somebody becomes severely ill-
就像有人得了重病一样——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
...
...
these strategies may not be sufficient.
这些策略可能还不够。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
But the basics are what we call the field of lifestyle medicine.
但基础知识就是我们所说的生活方式医学领域。
So there are six pillars of lifestyle medicine.
因此，生活方式医学有六大支柱。
They include diet nutrition, exercise or movement, sleep, managing substance use, ideally reducing it or minimizing it or eliminating it, stress reduction practices, mindfulness, meditation, yoga, and the last one is relationships I throw in the word purpose into relationships because I think even if you don't have a lot of friends or family, you can still have a very full, thriving life if you have a purpose.
它们包括饮食营养、锻炼或运动、睡眠、管理药物使用、理想情况下减少或最小化或消除它、减压练习、正念、冥想、瑜伽，最后一个是人际关系，我在人际关系中加入了“目的”这个词，因为我认为即使你没有很多朋友或家人，如果你有一个目标，你仍然可以拥有一个非常充实、繁荣的生活。
So those are the six pillars.
这就是六大支柱。
Unfortunately, this is where the cliches and the worthless advice begin, especially in the diet nutrition camp.
不幸的是，这就是陈词滥调和毫无价值的建议开始的地方，尤其是在饮食营养阵营中。
Because people will say, "Eat more plants, eat some broccoli, have some good blueberries.
因为人们会说，“多吃植物，吃一些西兰花，吃一些好的蓝莓。
Blueberries have antioxidants.
蓝莓含有抗氧化剂。
Have some blueberries on whatever else you're eating, and everything will be fine.
无论你吃什么，加点蓝莓，一切都会好起来的。
If you just add a couple of servings of blueberries a week, you'll improve your health."
如果您每周添加几份蓝莓，就会改善您的健康。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Brain food.
健脑食品。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
And that is such worthless advice.
这是毫无价值的建议。
It is not at all that simple.
事情根本没那么简单。
And so I think diet nutrition gets complicated fast.
所以我认为饮食营养很快就会变得复杂。
The other things are actually pretty straightforward.
其他事情实际上非常简单。
Should you move your body?
你应该移动你的身体吗？
Yes.
是的。
Should you stress your body intermittently, allowing for full recovery?
您是否应该间歇性地给身体施加压力，以便完全康复？
Yes.
是的。
That's what most people call exercise.
这就是大多数人所说的锻炼。
And what are you doing when you exercise?
当你锻炼的时候你在做什么？
If we look at the muscles, for example, muscle tissue, what exactly does exercise do?
如果我们观察肌肉，例如肌肉组织，运动到底有什么作用？
Whether it's isometric exercise to increase the size of the muscle, or whether it's endurance capacity, which actually does not change the size of the muscle at all, but allows for somebody to run longer, faster, harder.
无论是增加肌肉大小的等长训练，还是耐力训练，实际上根本不会改变肌肉的大小，而是让人跑得更远、更快、更努力。
So marathon runners, for example, can be quite thin.
例如，马拉松运动员可能会很瘦。
You can look at a marathon runner and think, "You're not even an athlete." They don't look all that different, yet they can run sometimes 100 miles.
你可以看着一位马拉松运动员并想：“你甚至不是一名运动员。”它们看起来并没有什么不同，但它们有时可以跑 100 英里。
And what makes their muscles different than my muscles?
他们的肌肉与我的肌肉有何不同？
Because I can't run 100 miles.
因为我跑不了100英里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Me either.
我也是。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
What makes their muscles different than mine?
他们的肌肉和我的有什么不同？
Even if the size isn't different, there is one and only one thing that makes their muscles different, and it's called mitochondria.
即使大小没有不同，也只有一种东西使他们的肌肉不同，那就是线粒体。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The number?
号码？
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
The number of mitochondria, and almost certainly the health of mitochondria.
线粒体的数量，以及几乎可以肯定的线粒体的健康状况。
You can actually take a biopsy of their muscle, and you will see a much higher density of mitochondria in their muscle tissue than you will in mine.
实际上，你可以对他们的肌肉进行活检，你会发现他们肌肉组织中的线粒体密度比我的要高得多。
If you actually then did a more thorough assessment of ATP capacity, their mitochondria would be much healthier than mine.
如果你真的对 ATP 能力进行更彻底的评估，他们的线粒体会比我的健康得多。
Their mitochondria would have greater capacity for ATP production than my mitochondria would.
他们的线粒体比我的线粒体具有更大的 ATP 生产能力。
So that's exercise.
所以这就是锻炼。
There are lots of things you can do with exercise.
通过锻炼你可以做很多事情。
For people who don't exercise at all, yes, get out and just walk, just do something.
对于根本不锻炼的人来说，是的，出去散步，做点什么。
Maybe get some sunlight in morning while you're at it.
也许早上你在的时候可以晒晒太阳。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That sounds like a good idea.
这听起来是个好主意。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
The substance use is obvious.
物质的使用是显而易见的。
It's the thing, you've been talking about it, I've been talking about it.
事情就是这样，你一直在谈论它，我也一直在谈论它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which substances deplete mitochondria?
哪些物质会消耗线粒体？
I've been very interested in this.
我对此非常感兴趣。
I'm a big lover of certain genres of music, and whenever the topic of music comes up, the name Rick Rubin comes up because he's been on this podcast twice, the famous Rick Rubin, amazing producer, and I'm blessed to have him as a close friend.
我非常喜欢某些类型的音乐，每当谈到音乐话题时，Rick Rubin 这个名字就会出现，因为他已经两次参加这个播客了，著名的 Rick Rubin，出色的制作人，我很幸运能有他作为亲密的朋友。
And I often ask Rick, I'm like, "Why are so many of these folks in music dead?" There seems to be a history of people who did stimulants, took a lot of stimulants, cocaine and amphetamine in particular.
我经常问里克，“为什么音乐界这么多人都死了？”似乎有人吸食兴奋剂，服用大量兴奋剂，尤其是可卡因和安非他明。
Musicians that did that in the '70s and '80s and '90s seemed to drop dead of heart attacks later when they were not currently using, as far as we know, those stimulants.
据我们所知，在 70 年代、80 年代和 90 年代这样做的音乐家后来似乎都死于心脏病，因为据我们所知，他们目前没有使用这些兴奋剂。
Is it the case that stimulants like cocaine and amphetamine deplete cells of mitochondria?
可卡因和安非他明等兴奋剂是否会消耗细胞的线粒体？
Do we know that to be true?
我们知道这是真的吗？
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
We do know, and it's a slightly more complex story.
我们确实知道，而且这是一个稍微复杂一些的故事。
So it's all about the dose.
所以这一切都与剂量有关。
So stimulants are used to treat ADHD.
因此兴奋剂被用来治疗多动症。
And we've known for decades, people who have ADHD, who have symptoms of ADHD, have glucose hypometabolism in their brains.
几十年来我们都知道，患有注意力缺陷多动症的人，有注意力缺陷多动症症状的人，他们的大脑中存在葡萄糖代谢低下的情况。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
So their brains are not producing enough ATP from glucose.
因此他们的大脑无法从葡萄糖中产生足够的 ATP。
What is one way to increase that?
增加这一点的一种方法是什么？
Dopamine.
多巴胺。
Dopamine will increase that, so you can give people stimulants to improve their brain metabolism enough so that they now no longer have symptoms or at least have a reduction in their symptoms.
多巴胺会增加这种程度，所以你可以给人们服用兴奋剂来改善他们的大脑新陈代谢，这样他们现在就不再有症状，或者至少症状减轻。
That story is unequivocally true.
这个故事绝对是真实的。
We have lots of animal data, human neuroimaging data, clinical research studies documenting that appropriate doses of stimulants, so that's usually low-ish doses, can improve brain metabolism.
我们有大量的动物数据、人类神经影像数据和临床研究，证明适当剂量的兴奋剂（通常是低剂量）可以改善大脑新陈代谢。
And what that means is that they're actually stimulating mitochondria to produce more ATP.
这意味着它们实际上是在刺激线粒体产生更多的 ATP。
However, metabolism is all about balance.
然而，新陈代谢的关键在于平衡。
You can underdo it and you can overdo it.
你可以做得不足，也可以做得过度。
And when you overdo it, what happens is that if you hyper-stimulate mitochondria with high doses of stimulants, the mitochondria are essentially running on all cylinders, and electrons start leaking out of the electron transport chain.
当你过度使用时，会发生的情况是，如果你用高剂量的兴奋剂过度刺激线粒体，线粒体基本上会全速运转，电子开始从电子传输链中泄漏。
And what happens is that that creates reactive oxygen species, which then damage the mitochondria themselves and damage other aspects of the cell.
所发生的情况是，这会产生活性氧，然后损害线粒体本身并损害细胞的其他方面。
And it can lead to chronic mitochondrial dysfunction, chronic metabolic dysfunction It's challenging with stimulants because people are looking for a yes or no answer.
它会导致慢性线粒体功能障碍、慢性代谢功能障碍。这对兴奋剂来说具有挑战性，因为人们正在寻找是或否的答案。
So Dr. Palmer, do you think stimulants are good or bad?
那么帕尔默博士，您认为兴奋剂是好是坏？
I don't have an answer to that.
我对此没有答案。
It depends on the person.
这取决于人。
It depends on the dose of stimulants.
这取决于兴奋剂的剂量。
It depends on the type of stimulant.
这取决于兴奋剂的类型。
It depends on what impact it's having on that person.
这取决于它对那个人有什么影响。
But we need to open our minds to the possibility that, yes, maybe some people do benefit from stimulants, and maybe at the same time, other people are harmed in catastrophic ways by stimulants.
但我们需要敞开心扉，接受这样一种可能性：是的，也许有些人确实从兴奋剂中受益，也许同时，其他人也因兴奋剂而遭受灾难性的伤害。
And it can all be linked through mitochondrial mechanisms.
这一切都可以通过线粒体机制联系起来。
It can certainly be linked through dopamine, but again, we have to ask, well, what is that dopamine doing to the target cells?
它当然可以通过多巴胺联系起来，但我们再次要问，多巴胺对靶细胞有什么作用？
That when dopamine gets released and connects with a dopamine receptor, what happens to that target cell?
当多巴胺被释放并与多巴胺受体连接时，目标细胞会发生什么？
It changes the metabolism of that target cell.
它改变了目标细胞的新陈代谢。
It increases the activity of that target cell.
它增加了靶细胞的活性。
So stimulants are one, back to this bigger lifestyle medicine picture.
所以兴奋剂就是其中之一，回到更大的生活方式医学图景。
Stimulants are definitely one.
兴奋剂绝对是其中之一。
High-dose stimulants, very harmful to human health.
大剂量兴奋剂，对人体健康危害很大。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What are some others?
其他还有哪些？
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Alcohol.
酒精。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
We've known since the 1960s.
我们从 20 世纪 60 年代就知道了。
In the 1960s, researchers were trying to figure out, how the hell does alcohol cause cirrhosis?
20 世纪 60 年代，研究人员试图弄清楚，酒精到底是如何导致肝硬化的？
We knew that.
我们知道这一点。
We've known that.
我们已经知道了。
We've known that for a long time.
我们很早就知道这一点。
Alcoholics develop liver failure.
酗酒者会出现肝功能衰竭。
They develop cirrhosis of the liver, and they can die from it.
他们会患上肝硬化，并可能因此而死亡。
How exactly does that happen?
这到底是怎么发生的？
In the 1960s, researchers figured out it's mitochondrial toxicity-
在 20 世纪 60 年代，研究人员发现了它的线粒体毒性——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting
有趣
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
...
...
in the liver cells.
在肝细胞中。
That is what's making the liver cells die.
这就是导致肝细胞死亡的原因。
That alcohol gets converted into this molecule called acetaldehyde, which is very toxic to lots of cell parts, but in particular to mitochondria.
酒精会转化为乙醛分子，乙醛对许多细胞部分有很强的毒性，尤其是对线粒体。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Mitochondria are processing this alcohol, and other enzymes and other things are trying to detoxify the alcohol.
线粒体正在处理这种酒精，其他酶和其他物质正在尝试对酒精进行解毒。
But at the end of the day, mitochondrial toxicity seems to be a clear route.
但归根结底，线粒体毒性似乎是一条明确的途径。
So when I was doing research on mitochondria for the book, there were over 10,000 published research articles of alcohol and mitochondria.
所以当我为这本书做线粒体研究时，已经发表了超过 10,000 篇关于酒精和线粒体的研究文章。
And I was initially shocked by that, and I wondered, what's that about?
我最初对此感到震惊，我想知道这是怎么回事？
That's how I know this 1960s story and everything else is because researchers have been looking at how is it that alcohol can be so toxic.
这就是我知道这个 20 世纪 60 年代故事的原因，而其他一切都是因为研究人员一直在研究酒精为何会如此有毒。
And the two organs that are most affected are the liver, because that's the primary organ trying to detoxify it, and then the brain.
受影响最严重的两个器官是肝脏，因为这是试图解毒的主要器官，然后是大脑。
And why the brain?
为什么是大脑？
Because the brain is highly sensitive to metabolic disruption.
因为大脑对代谢紊乱高度敏感。
Other substances of abuse, tobacco, the carcinogens in tobacco.
其他滥用物质、烟草、烟草中的致癌物质。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So not nicotine per se?
那么尼古丁本身不是吗？
Do we know if nicotine is depleting mitochondria?
我们知道尼古丁是否会消耗线粒体吗？
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Nicotine is a stimulant for mitochondria.
尼古丁是线粒体的兴奋剂。
So again, similar story.
类似的故事又来了。
Low doses can be great.
低剂量可能效果很好。
High doses may in fact be toxic.
高剂量实际上可能有毒。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, good.
哦，很好。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
You've got to find the right balance.
你必须找到正确的平衡点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm not a big nicotine guy, but lately, I've started chewing half of a piece of nicotine gum a few times a week, so two milligrams to four milligrams, which is very low dose.
我不是一个大尼古丁迷，但最近，我开始每周嚼几次半块尼古丁口香糖，所以两毫克到四毫克，这是非常低的剂量。
I would say maybe three, four days a week I'll do that, and I'm doing it specifically for brain health reasons.
我想说也许每周我会这样做三、四天，而且我这样做是专门出于大脑健康的原因。
And I have no relationship to any nicotine pouch or gum or anything like that, so I want to be really company.
我与任何尼古丁袋或口香糖或类似的东西都没有关系，所以我想成为真正的陪伴。
So I'm doing a little experiment, and it's an interesting stimulant because it relaxes you a little bit, too.
所以我正在做一个小实验，这是一种有趣的兴奋剂，因为它也能让你放松一点。
But I wouldn't want kids to start doing this, or people in their 20s or 30s.
但我不希望孩子们或者 20 多岁或 30 多岁的人开始这样做。
Like I said, I'm approaching the fifth floor.
就像我说的，我快到五楼了。
I'm going to be 50 in September, and I want to do everything I can to hold onto the neurons I've got.
九月份我就满 50 岁了，我想尽我所能来保住我所拥有的神经元。
So I think low-level stimulation of perhaps the mitochondria and other-- certainly the acetylcholine system with nicotine is a good idea.
所以我认为用尼古丁对线粒体和其他乙酰胆碱系统进行低水平刺激是一个好主意。
But what I see is a lot of people who are taking these pouches that range from anywhere from three milligrams on the low-end dose side, all the way up to eight milligrams, and it is very habit-forming.
但我看到很多人服用这些药袋，剂量从低端剂量的三毫克到八毫克不等，这很容易养成习惯。
People start with one pouch or two pouches a day, and pretty soon they're doing a canister every day or two.
人们开始每天使用一袋或两袋，很快他们就会每天或两天使用一罐。
So even the cost, it starts to be a big deal.
因此，即使是成本，它也开始成为一个大问题。
But it's pretty incredible.
但这是相当令人难以置信的。
I was on the Berkeley campus, and I went to a little convenience store near the Berkeley campus recently.
我在伯克利校园，最近去了伯克利校园附近的一家小便利店。
This kid came in, and we started chatting.
这个孩子进来了，我们开始聊天。
He's a podcast fan.
他是一名播客粉丝。
We were chatting, and he was there to buy nicotine pouches.
我们正在聊天，他在那里买尼古丁袋。
I said, "How many of those do you go through a week?" And he's like, "Seven or eight." I was like, "Really?" He's an engineering student.
我说：“你一周经历多少这样的事情？”他说，“七或八。”我当时想，“真的吗？”他是一名工科学生。
But in my years in college, it was always just some coffee or something.
但在我上大学的那些年里，总是只是喝点咖啡什么的。
Yeah, some coffee.
是的，来点咖啡。
We didn't really have-
我们真的没有-
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
I'd stick with coffee.
我会坚持喝咖啡。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
For the young folks.
对于年轻人来说。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
For the young folks.
对于年轻人来说。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For the young.
对于年轻人来说。
A little bit of coffee, you're good to-
喝一点咖啡，你就可以——
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
And again, it's about dose.
再说一次，这与剂量有关。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yep.
是的。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
So most things that enhance metabolism quickly can be addictive.
所以大多数能快速促进新陈代谢的东西都会让人上瘾。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
And I think that's the challenge for a lot of people, is that you get that energy right away.
我认为这对很多人来说都是一个挑战，那就是你要立即获得那种能量。
At some point, you acclimate to that substance somewhat, and then you want more.
在某些时候，你会稍微适应这种物质，然后你想要更多。
You want that same increase that you got before.
您希望获得与之前相同的增长。
So it's just important to be mindful that you can overstimulate ...
所以重要的是要注意你可能会过度刺激......
metabolism, mitochondrial function
新陈代谢、线粒体功能
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then you start depleting mitochondria.
然后你开始消耗线粒体。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
And then, yeah.
然后，是的。
And then the mitochondria begin producing more reactive oxygen species, which ends up being detrimental.
然后线粒体开始产生更多的活性氧，这最终是有害的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
So it's like driving your car.
所以这就像驾驶你的汽车一样。
Again, if you think about mitochondria like an engine, it's like an engine of your car.
再说一次，如果你把线粒体想象成一个发动机，它就像你汽车的发动机。
When you're driving your car on the highway, you don't want to go too slow, and you don't want to go too fast.
当你在高速公路上开车时，你不想开得太慢，也不想开得太快。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
You need to have balance.
你需要保持平衡。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And acceleration is costly.
而且加速的成本很高。
Right?
正确的？
Transmission systems create this incredible efficiency of being able to travel at speed with more efficiency, but accelerating is a different thing altogether.
传动系统创造了令人难以置信的效率，能够以更高的效率高速行驶，但加速却完全是另一回事。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
That's the way that I think about it.
我就是这么想的。
And so somebody who's addicted to drugs and alcohol, for example, they're on a roller coaster ride of hyper-stimulating their metabolic rate and then trying to suppress that hyper-stimulation with sedatives so that they can sleep or calm down.
例如，那些对毒品和酒精上瘾的人，他们就像坐过山车一样，过度刺激他们的新陈代谢率，然后试图用镇静剂抑制这种过度刺激，这样他们就可以入睡或平静下来。
But they're destroying their metabolic health.
但它们正在破坏他们的新陈代谢健康。
And does that really play out?
这真的有效吗？
Some will say, "Well, Chris, that's just one of myriad things that they're doing to their cells." Sure.
有些人会说，“好吧，克里斯，这只是他们对细胞所做的无数事情之一。”当然。
But does it play out in diseases that we think of as metabolic diseases?
但它会在我们认为是代谢性疾病的疾病中发挥作用吗？
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Type two diabetes, yes.
二型糖尿病，是的。
Cardiovascular disease, 100%.
心血管疾病，100%。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Premature mortality, yeah.
过早死亡，是的。
It's like the elephant in the room that we have just failed to look at because we've been so splintered with, "No, it's biological.
这就像房间里的大象，我们只是没有看到，因为我们一直被这样的想法所分裂：“不，这是生物学的。
No, it's psychological.
不，这是心理作用。
No, it's social." It's like, it's all of them.
不，这是社交。”就好像，都是他们。
Let's look at the elephant that comprises all of them.
让我们看看由所有这些组成的大象。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One of the beautiful things about science is that you isolate variables.
科学的美妙之处之一就是可以隔离变量。
You can get very reductionist.
你可能会变得非常还原论。
We know that there are these things called mitochondria, that they move around.
我们知道有一种叫做线粒体的东西，它们四处移动。
These discoveries are truly incredible that have been made in the last 100 years or so.
这些发现确实令人难以置信，是在过去 100 年左右的时间里取得的。
But there's been this kind of obsession, I think, in the public discussion around health, around things that are obviously related to the thing that you're trying to cure.
但我认为，在围绕健康的公众讨论中，围绕着与你想要治愈的疾病明显相关的事情，存在着这种痴迷。
So serotonin and brain health.
所以血清素和大脑健康。
It's like, oh, okay, it makes sense.
就像，哦，好吧，这是有道理的。
The "Listening to Prozac" book came out, we increased serotonin, some people are feeling better.
《聆听百忧解》这本书出来了，我们增加了血清素，有些人感觉好多了。
Maybe it's through neuroplasticity, maybe it's direct effects of serotonin.
也许是通过神经可塑性，也许是血清素的直接影响。
But it makes sense.
但这是有道理的。
Serotonin, brain, right?
血清素，大脑，对吗？
But if we zoom out from that and we accept, because it's true, that essentially all cells are dependent on mitochondria for their function, why wouldn't we go to this fundamental layer first in order to try and improve mental and physical health simultaneously?
但是，如果我们把目光放远一点，并接受（因为这是真的）基本上所有细胞的功能都依赖于线粒体，那么为什么我们不首先进入这个基本层，以尝试同时改善心理和身体健康呢？
Right?
正确的？
It's a very different way of approaching medicine in general.
一般来说，这是一种非常不同的治疗医学的方式。
Normally, we go, okay, well, the issue is right here.
通常，我们会说，好吧，问题就在这里。
That's where the tumor is.
那就是肿瘤所在的地方。
That's where the circuit deficit is.
这就是电路缺陷所在。
This is where the lesion is or the growth, and we're going to go there.
这就是病变或生长的地方，我们要去那里。
Right?
正确的？
But to avoid the pathologic state in the first place, these six pillars are wonderful by the way: diet, exercise, sleep, substance overuse or abuse, stress mitigation, and relationships/purpose.
但为了从一开始就避免病理状态，这六个支柱是很棒的：饮食、锻炼、睡眠、药物过度使用或滥用、缓解压力以及关系/目的。
So we're going to keep returning to this theme of mitochondria as foundational throughout today's discussion because I think people need to frame their health in that context.
因此，在今天的讨论中，我们将继续回到线粒体这个主题作为基础，因为我认为人们需要在这个背景下构建自己的健康。
I really do.
我真的这么做。
Also, years ago, my postdoc advisor, the late Ben Barris, he died, unfortunately, of pancreatic cancer, but just an incredible scientist, MD, and a scientist who really popularized the study of glia.
另外，几年前，我的博士后导师、已故的本·巴里斯不幸死于胰腺癌，但他只是一位令人难以置信的科学家、医学博士，也是一位真正普及了神经胶质细胞研究的科学家。
Prior to that, they were seen as kind of like backwater science.
在此之前，它们被视为有点像死水科学。
Everyone thought it was just glue for the brain.
每个人都认为它只是大脑的胶水。
He used to stop us in the hallways late at night, and we called it getting Ben'd because you'd want to leave.
他常常深夜在走廊里拦住我们，我们称之为“让本德”，因为你想离开。
And he was a night owl.
他是一个夜猫子。
It was awful, and you'd get stuck there.
这太糟糕了，你会被困在那里。
But I'll never forget, he stopped me, he called me Andy, and he said-- He did this numerous times, but he said, "Andy, why..." No one calls me that, by the way, anymore.
但我永远不会忘记，他阻止了我，他叫我安迪，他说——他这样做了很多次，但他说，“安迪，为什么……”顺便说一句，再也没有人这么叫我了。
He said, "Andy, why is it that as we get older, we have less energy?" And I'm like, "I don't know, Ben." He's like, "Why don't you work on that?
他说：“安迪，为什么我们年纪越大，精力就越少呢？”我说：“我不知道，本。”他说：“你为什么不努力去做呢？
Why are you working on these retinal cells?
你为什么要研究这些视网膜细胞？
You should work on that." And he said, "Why is it that our brain is less plastic?" I'm like, "Well, I don't know.
你应该在这方面努力。”他说：“为什么我们的大脑可塑性较差？”我说：“好吧，我不知道。
I think it's the glia, right?" And there is some evidence that it has something to do with the glia, among other things.
我认为是神经胶质细胞，对吧？”有一些证据表明它与神经胶质细胞等有关。
But there's a fundamentally interesting question.
但有一个根本上有趣的问题。
You look at kids, and they're just full of energy.
你看看孩子们，他们充满活力。
There's the NAD hypothesis and there's these others, but it always seems to circle back to mitochondria.
有 NAD 假说，也有其他假说，但似乎总是回到线粒体。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Over and over.
一遍又一遍。
So I think the answer is very clear.
所以我认为答案是非常明确的。
We have a ton of mitochondria early in life, and over time, it gets depleted.
我们在生命早期就有大量线粒体，随着时间的推移，它会耗尽。
Is it that simple?
真有这么简单吗？
There are other things, too.
还有其他事情。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
There are other things, but I actually do think it's not just the number and density of mitochondria, but it's the health of mitochondria.
还有其他的事情，但我实际上确实认为这不仅仅是线粒体的数量和密度，而是线粒体的健康状况。
Because unfortunately, our cells have a process for getting rid of defective mitochondria.
因为不幸的是，我们的细胞有一个去除有缺陷的线粒体的过程。
It's part of autophagy.
这是自噬的一部分。
There's a sub-category called mitophagy in which defective mitochondria should be shuttled to lysosomes or shuttled out of cells.
有一个称为线粒体自噬的子类别，其中有缺陷的线粒体应该被运送到溶酶体或被运送出细胞。
Recent paper actually found that microglia in the brain, again, send out these nanotunnels to astrocytes and collect defective mitochondria from the neuron-
最近的论文实际上发现，大脑中的小胶质细胞再次将这些纳米隧道发送到星形胶质细胞，并从神经元中收集有缺陷的线粒体。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing
太棒了
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
...
...
and then take care of the disposal process for that neuron.
然后处理该神经元的处理过程。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Glial are so cool.
胶质细胞太酷了。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
And that when you inhibit that, it appears to increase and accelerate neurodegeneration.
当你抑制它时，它似乎会增加并加速神经退行性变。
And when you enhance that, it appears to improve or reduce neurodegeneration.
当你增强它时，它似乎可以改善或减少神经退行性变。
But I think it is.
但我认为是的。
I think children have more energy Because they have healthier metabolism, healthier mitochondrial function.
我认为孩子们有更多的能量，因为他们有更健康的新陈代谢，更健康的线粒体功能。
And when we look at, again, is there evidence for that?
当我们再次审视时，是否有证据证明这一点？
There's overwhelming evidence for that.
有压倒性的证据证明这一点。
There are thousands of peer-reviewed published articles in leading journals, "Nature," "Cell," all sorts of journals over the last several decades.
过去几十年来，在《自然》、《细胞》等各种顶级期刊上发表了数千篇经过同行评审的文章。
Just to, again, try to bring this back to just common sense.
只是为了再次尝试将其带回常识。
So we have these things called diseases of aging.
所以我们有这些称为衰老疾病的东西。
What are the diseases of aging?
老年病有哪些？
The diseases of aging are obesity, type 2 diabetes, cardiovascular disease, cancer, neurodegenerative disorders.
衰老疾病包括肥胖、2型糖尿病、心血管疾病、癌症、神经退行性疾病。
Those are universally thought of as diseases of aging.
这些普遍被认为是衰老疾病。
Interestingly, what often gets left off of that category are the mental disorders.
有趣的是，经常被排除在这一类别之外的是精神障碍。
Especially today, a lot of people think of mental disorders as primarily a youth problem, but in fact, mental disorders, depression, anxiety, psychosis, are actually diseases of aging.
尤其是在今天，很多人认为精神障碍主要是年轻人的问题，但事实上，精神障碍、抑郁、焦虑、精神病实际上是衰老性疾病。
So the Center for Disease Control has put out charts of any age group.
所以疾病控制中心已经推出了任何年龄段的图表。
What is the probability if you are a youth in America today that you will be prescribed an SSRI antidepressant?
如果您是当今美国的年轻人，医生会给您开 SSRI 抗抑郁药的可能性有多大？
If you're between 20 and 40, what's the probability among the remaining people who are still 20 to 40, among all the people that age?
如果你的年龄在 20 到 40 岁之间，那么在所有这个年龄段的人中，剩下的仍然在 20 到 40 岁的人的概率是多少？
As people get older, the risk for antidepressant prescription goes up.
随着人们年龄的增长，服用抗抑郁药物的风险也会增加。
The highest category of people prescribed antidepressants are 65 and older.
服用抗抑郁药的最高人群是 65 岁及以上的老年人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Well, I guess in some sense that makes sense, although I would've thought it would be the younger population.
嗯，我想从某种意义上说这是有道理的，尽管我本以为这会是年轻人口。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Most people do, and that's why I'm saying this, because it's shocking to most people.
大多数人都这样做，这就是我这么说的原因，因为这让大多数人感到震惊。
It was actually surprising to me, but I was thinking, wait, if my theory's correct, then mental disorders should be a disease of aging.
这实际上让我感到惊讶，但我在想，等等，如果我的理论是正确的，那么精神障碍应该是一种衰老疾病。
And in fact, they are.
事实上，他们确实如此。
Antipsychotic prescriptions, what age group is the most likely to be prescribed an antipsychotic?
抗精神病药处方，哪个年龄段最有可能服用抗精神病药？
Over age 80.
80岁以上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Oh, it goes through the roof.
哦，它穿过屋顶。
Because dementia is associated with 40% to 50% of the people with dementia will have psychotic symptoms, hallucinations, and delusions.
因为痴呆症与40%至50%的痴呆症患者会出现精神病症状、幻觉和妄想有关。
They'll have agitation.
他们会有躁动。
The benzodiazepines, the prescription rate goes up.
苯二氮卓类药物的处方率上升。
Now, with benzos, there is a dip starting at age 65, and that is really because physicians are explicitly told, "Do not prescribe benzos to people over 65," so the rate starts going down.
现在，苯并类药物的使用率从 65 岁开始下降，这实际上是因为医生被明确告知，“不要给 65 岁以上的人开苯并类药物”，因此该比例开始下降。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
But with antidepressants, it's almost linear.
但对于抗抑郁药来说，它几乎是线性的。
The older you are, the more likely you are to be receiving a prescription for an antidepressant.
您年龄越大，就越有可能收到抗抑郁药处方。
Antipsychotics, there are some waves and shifts.
抗精神病药，有一些波动和转变。
Women, for example, around the time of menopause, get a peak.
例如，女性在更年期前后会达到高峰。
So you get a peak around the age of 20, which is new onset schizophrenia, and then it comes down a little, and then women around the time of menopause, higher peak, and then it comes down a little, and then late in life, goes through the roof.
因此，在 20 岁左右会出现一个峰值，这是新发的精神分裂症，然后它会下降一点，然后女性在更年期左右，高峰会更高，然后它会下降一点，然后在晚年，会达到顶峰。
Again, because of what we call dementia.
再次，因为我们所说的痴呆症。
So the diseases of aging, anyway, are all of the metabolic disorders and, oh, by the way, the mental disorders.
因此，无论如何，衰老疾病都是代谢紊乱，哦，顺便说一句，还有精神紊乱。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
And in my mind, we need to tie that together.
在我看来，我们需要将它们联系在一起。
That is not a serotonin problem.
这不是血清素问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
We need to tie that science together, and the only way to tie that science together is to look at the bigger picture that we call metabolism, and ultimately, you have to look at mitochondria and mitochondrial biology to understand it.
我们需要将科学联系在一起，而将科学联系在一起的唯一方法是着眼于我们所谓的新陈代谢的更大图景，最终，你必须看看线粒体和线粒体生物学才能理解它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。
Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.
去年，在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我成为了 Function 成员。
Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health.
Function 提供 100 多项高级实验室测试，为您提供整个身体健康状况的关键快照。
This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more.
此快照为您提供有关心脏健康、激素健康、免疫功能、营养水平等方面的见解。
They've also recently added tests for toxins, such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics, and tests for PFAS, or forever chemicals.
他们最近还增加了毒素测试，例如有害塑料中的 BPA 暴露，以及 PFAS 或永久化学物质的测试。
Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas.
Function 不仅提供对您的身心健康至关重要的 100 多种生物标记物的测试，而且还分析这些结果并提供相关领域专家的顶级医生的见解。
For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood.
例如，在我第一次使用 Function 进行测试时，我发现我的血液中汞含量升高。
Function not only helped me detect that, but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, N-acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification.
功能不仅帮助我发现了这一点，还为我提供了如何最好地降低汞含量的见解，其中包括限制我的金枪鱼摄入量，我一直在吃大量金枪鱼，同时还努力多吃绿叶蔬菜并补充 NAC、N-乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都可以支持谷胱甘肽的产生和解毒。
And I should say, by taking a second Function test, that approach worked.
我应该说，通过进行第二次功能测试，这种方法奏效了。
Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important.
全面的血液检测至关重要。
There's so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test.
有很多与您的心理和身体健康相关的事情只能通过血液检查来检测。
The problem is, blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated.
问题是，血液检测一直非常昂贵且复杂。
In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity, and at the level of cost.
相比之下，Function 的简单性和成本水平给我留下了深刻的印象。
It is very affordable.
这是非常实惠的。
As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.
因此，我决定加入他们的科学顾问委员会，我很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。
If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Function，可以访问 functionhealth.com/huberman。
Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman Podcast listeners.
Function 目前有超过 250,000 人的等候名单，但他们正在为 Huberman 播客听众提供早期访问服务。
Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.
同样，可以通过 functionhealth.com/huberman 提前访问 Function。
Let's talk about diet and nutrition for a moment.
让我们谈谈饮食和营养。
In recent years, you've talked a lot about the clinical use of the ketogenic diet for various mental health disorders and cited some spectacular results.
近年来，您多次谈论生酮饮食在治疗各种精神健康疾病方面的临床应用，并列举了一些令人惊叹的结果。
And this has had a huge impact on everybody's thinking about what ketogenic diets originally were for.
这对每个人对生酮饮食最初用途的思考产生了巨大的影响。
It was developed as a medical treatment for epilepsy, is my understanding.
据我了解，它是作为一种治疗癫痫的药物而开发的。
Only later did it become popular as a potential avenue for losing body fat, et cetera.
直到后来，它才作为减少体内脂肪等的潜在途径而流行起来。
But what are some of the ways that people can use diet and nutrition to improve metabolic health generally?
但是人们可以通过哪些方式利用饮食和营养来改善代谢健康？
But let's be more specific.
但让我们更具体一些。
Mitochondrial health, number turnover, all the good stuff that happens in mitochondria.
线粒体健康、数量周转以及线粒体中发生的所有好事。
How can nutrition be used to improve that?
如何利用营养来改善这一点？
And why would it be that the ketogenic diet would improve mitochondrial function?
为什么生酮饮食会改善线粒体功能？
Or is it that the ketogenic diet bypasses the need for standard cellular metabolism by pulling on some other cellular metabolism mechanisms?
或者生酮饮食通过利用其他一些细胞代谢机制来绕过标准细胞代谢的需要？
I'm just trying to draw the link here between a ketogenic diet and mitochondria, because you've well established that mitochondria are central to this whole picture of mental and physical health.
我只是想在生酮饮食和线粒体之间建立联系，因为您已经明确线粒体对于整个身心健康至关重要。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
I'll throw in a plug before I go deep into the ketogenic diet story, but you also threw a question in there about other dietary interventions or how can diet impact.
在深入了解生酮饮食的故事之前，我会先插上一句，但你也提出了一个关于其他饮食干预措施或饮食如何影响的问题。
There is no question diet plays a profound and central role to human metabolism and all of the consequences of human metabolism.
毫无疑问，饮食对人类新陈代谢以及人类新陈代谢的所有后果起着深远而核心的作用。
And you very eloquently laid out the case for early life.
您非常雄辩地阐述了早年生活的情况。
A woman who's breastfeeding her infant, that breast milk has a profound impact on whether that baby's brain develops normally or not.
对于母乳喂养婴儿的女性来说，母乳对婴儿的大脑是否正常发育有着深远的影响。
That has dire consequences, potentially, for the outcome and the health of that child.
这可能会对孩子的结果和健康产生可怕的后果。
And it's all about nutrition.
这都与营养有关。
We've known that for decades, that if women are malnourished during pregnancy, it impacts that infant's, the fetus's lifespan, really.
几十年来我们都知道，如果女性在怀孕期间营养不良，确实会影响婴儿、胎儿的寿命。
It increases risk for mental disorders and metabolic disorders.
它会增加精神障碍和代谢紊乱的风险。
If your mother is starving while she's pregnant or has to fast or has to go without nutrients, it increases that child's risk for metabolic disorders, obesity, diabetes, cardiovascular disease.
如果你的母亲在怀孕期间挨饿，或者不得不禁食，或者不得不缺乏营养，就会增加孩子患代谢紊乱、肥胖、糖尿病、心血管疾病的风险。
We've known that, and there are lots of theories about obesity around that.
我们已经知道这一点，并且围绕这一点有很多关于肥胖的理论。
It also surprisingly increases risk for schizophrenia and bipolar disorder and antisocial personality disorder and all sorts of other mental disorders.
它还令人惊讶地增加了患精神分裂症、双相情感障碍、反社会人格障碍和各种其他精神障碍的风险。
In terms of other dietary patterns, I just want to-- and we can do a deep dive into any of these if you want, and then I'll go on to ketogenic diets.
就其他饮食模式而言，我只是想——如果你愿意，我们可以深入研究其中任何一个，然后我将继续生酮饮食。
But ultra-processed foods, really bad for your physical health and your mental health.
但超加工食品对你的身体健康和心理健康确实有害。
We have just growing body of evidence for that.
我们有越来越多的证据证明这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is that because of the increased calorie consumption?
是因为热量消耗增加了吗？
There's this really nice paper that was published a few years ago showing that people who eat above a certain threshold of processed foods tend to consume, on average, about 500 calories more than they require per day, which might not seem like much, but over time, that compounds and-
几年前发表的一篇非常好的论文表明，加工食品摄入量超过一定阈值的人往往会平均每天摄入比所需热量多约 500 卡路里的热量，这可能看起来不多，但随着时间的推移，这种情况会加剧——
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Huge
巨大的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
they gain a lot of adipose tissue.
他们获得了大量的脂肪组织。
And then the adipose tissue is secreting a lot of things into the bloodstream that make the whole situation even worse, both brain and bodily.
然后脂肪组织会分泌很多东西到血液中，这使得整个情况变得更糟，无论是大脑还是身体。
But aside from the caloric load, is there any evidence that these food dyes and other things that are included in these foods are detrimental to mitochondrial health?
但除了热量负荷之外，是否有任何证据表明这些食物染料和这些食物中包含的其他物质对线粒体健康有害？
This is a somewhat controversial thing these days because some of these dyes were banned recently, which I saw as a good thing.
如今，这是一件颇具争议的事情，因为其中一些染料最近被禁止，我认为这是一件好事。
But then some of the diehards in the scientific community were like, "Oh, those dosages represent 6,000-fold what most people eat, the dosages used in mice." But the FDA still pulled those dyes, and the FDA is a pretty conservative body.
但后来科学界的一些顽固分子说，“哦，这些剂量是大多数人吃的剂量（用于小鼠的剂量）的 6000 倍。”但 FDA 仍然取消了这些染料，而且 FDA 是一个相当保守的机构。
So I don't know.
所以我不知道。
Not every chemical is bad, of course.
当然，并非所有化学物质都是有害的。
But are these additives really that bad?
但这些添加剂真的有那么糟糕吗？
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
So to try to answer your question, are the chemicals and additives harmful?
那么，尝试回答您的问题，化学品和添加剂有害吗？
The real answer is we don't actually have adequate scientific evidence one way or another.
真正的答案是我们实际上并没有足够的科学证据。
And why don't we have adequate scientific evidence?
为什么我们没有足够的科学证据？
Because we're not spending money to research it.
因为我们不会花钱去研究它。
So right now, the rules to this day are that there's this concept called GRAS, general regarded as safe, that food companies can develop new molecules that will preserve a food, make a food hyper-palatable, make it tastier, make it more shelf-stable, whatever they want to claim it does, that they can develop molecules, they can put these molecules into our food, and they can get away with just saying, "Well, this is just generally regarded as safe," without any adequate safety testing whatsoever.
所以现在的规则是，有一个叫做 GRAS 的概念，一般被认为是安全的，食品公司可以开发新的分子来保存食品，使食品变得超级美味，使其更美味，使其更耐储存，无论他们想声称它做什么，他们可以开发分子，他们可以将这些分子放入我们的食品中，他们可以只说“嗯，这通常被认为是安全的”，而无需进行任何充分的安全测试。
And the FDA allows that.
FDA 允许这样做。
Now, the new administration, RFK Jr., just recently said he's going to try to change that rule, and I welcome that change.
现在，新政府小罗伯特·肯尼迪最近刚刚表示，他将尝试改变这一规则，我欢迎这一改变。
I think that will be a phenomenal change.
我认为这将是一个惊人的变化。
So the reality is that Testing hasn't been done on all of these molecules.
所以现实是尚未对所有这些分子进行测试。
There are tens of thousands of molecules and new chemicals, new additives, things that sometimes aren't even on the label that are added to food, and we really don't know for sure for each and every one of them whether this one is safe or not safe.
食品中添加了数以万计的分子、新化学物质、新添加剂，有时甚至标签上没有的东西，我们真的不确定其中每一种是否安全。
What we do know overall, and this unfortunately comes down to epidemiological studies, where they just look at hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people, and they assess how much ultra-processed food is this person eating, and is that associated.
我们所知道的总体情况，不幸的是，这归结为流行病学研究，他们只观察数十万人，甚至数百万人，然后评估这个人吃了多少超加工食品，以及这是否相关。
If we look at large populations of people and we stratify them by these people are eating mostly ultra-processed foods, and these people are hardly eating any.
如果我们观察大量人群，并通过这些人主要吃超加工食品来对他们进行分层，而这些人几乎不吃任何食品。
Are there differences in their health outcomes?
他们的健康结果有差异吗？
And the answer to that is unequivocal, and it is perfectly clear.
这个问题的答案是明确的、非常清楚的。
The more ultra-processed foods you eat, the worse your physical and mental health.
你吃的超加工食品越多，你的身心健康就越差。
Both.
两个都。
It's cardiovascular disease, it's obesity, it's diabetes, it's mortality, it's cancer.
这是心血管疾病、肥胖、糖尿病、死亡率、癌症。
It's also a broad range of mental disorders.
这也是一种广泛的精神障碍。
And so we know that.
所以我们知道这一点。
We've got more granular data that hyper-focuses on the mental health story.
我们获得了更详细的数据，这些数据高度关注心理健康故事。
One study, over 300,000 people, the more ultra-processed foods you eat, a direct linear relationship.
一项研究显示，超过 300,000 人吃的超加工食品越多，呈直接线性关系。
It was shocking how linear it was.
它的线性程度令人震惊。
The more ultra-processed foods you eat, the worse your mental health.
你吃的超加工食品越多，你的心理健康状况就越差。
And it was so striking.
这真是太引人注目了。
It was not a subtle difference.
这并不是一个细微的差别。
It wasn't like, oh, it was a 3% difference between the lowest.
这并不是说，哦，最低的之间有 3% 的差异。
It was a threefold difference.
这是三倍的差异。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
The people who consumed ultra-processed foods every day, multiple times a day, 58% of them had poor mental health, compared to only 18% of the people who rarely or never consumed ultra-processed foods.
每天多次食用超加工食品的人中，58% 的人心理健康状况不佳，而很少或从不食用超加工食品的人中只有 18% 的人心理健康状况不佳。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
So this would be even just like somebody has a bag of chips and some just pour in water type pre-made soup or something like that.
所以这就像有人有一袋薯条，有些人只是倒入水型预制汤或类似的东西。
Those are ultra-processed.
这些都是经过超加工的。
This would be somebody orders a sandwich at the deli for lunch, which can be done in a relatively healthy way, depending on what's in that sandwich, and then does soda and bag of chips on the side.
这可能是有人在熟食店点了一份三明治作为午餐，这可以以相对健康的方式完成，具体取决于三明治中的内容，然后在旁边喝苏打水和一袋薯条。
That's a lot of, in my opinion, highly processed food.
在我看来，这是很多高度加工的食品。
But I think sometimes people don't think of it that way.
但我认为有时人们并不这么认为。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I was surprised and somewhat delighted to learn that one of the ways that the public health folks got kids to smoke fewer cigarettes, because when I was growing up, smoking was cool.
我很惊讶，也有些高兴地得知，公共卫生人员让孩子们少吸烟的方法之一，因为在我成长的过程中，吸烟很酷。
You smoke a cigarette, it was cool.
你抽一支烟，很酷。
People thought it was cool.
人们认为这很酷。
It definitely is reinforcing because of the nicotine, the dopamine increases, and it was considered cool.
由于尼古丁的存在，多巴胺的增加，它肯定会增强，而且它被认为很酷。
You had your Marlboro Man image from the preceding decades, but then it was really the '90s, it was the actors and models and stuff that made it cool.
你的形象是前几十年的万宝路男士形象，但那真的是 90 年代，演员、模特之类的东西让它变得很酷。
People smoked, and it was supposed to be cool.
人们抽烟，本来应该很酷。
And one of the ways that we ended up with people smoking far less was not just to ban it on campuses, because that just makes teens want to do it more, right?
我们最终减少人们吸烟的方法之一不仅仅是在校园内禁止吸烟，因为这只会让青少年更想吸烟，对吗？
And in college, you want to do it more.
在大学里，你想做更多。
Was to have these commercials of these...
是为了做这些广告……
To be direct, it was just these rich white guys in a room that was portraying the boardroom of a tobacco company, and they were cackling and talking about like, "Ha ha ha." They don't think it causes cancer and this kind of thing.
说得直接一点，就是这些富有的白人在一个描绘烟草公司董事会会议室的房间里，他们咯咯地笑着，谈论着“哈哈哈”。他们不认为它会导致癌症之类的事情。
Basically pitting youth against adults so that the youth felt like their money was being taken by the establishment.
基本上是让年轻人与成年人竞争，让年轻人感觉他们的钱被当权者拿走了。
So is there a world where kids are going to be like, forgive me, but, "F that.
那么，是否有一个世界，孩子们会说，原谅我，但是，“F那个。
I'm not eating Doritos." "I'm not going to be manipulated by highly processed foods," or, "I'm going to hold onto my mental health by making healthy choices in terms of food." It's tricky, but it has a lot of the same parallels to cigarette use or alcohol use.
我不吃多力多滋。” “我不会被高度加工的食品所操纵，”或者，“我将通过在食物方面做出健康的选择来保持我的心理健康。”这很棘手，但它与吸烟或饮酒有很多相似之处。
But I feel like the only way to really get Americans to change their behavior, besides scaring them fundamentally, but even if you do that, is to incentivize it, and one of the best incentives historically for public health change has been to make the public feel like they're pitted against the people that are trying to take their money unfairly and make them unhealthy at the same time.
但我觉得，除了从根本上吓唬他们之外，真正让美国人改变行为的唯一方法就是激励他们，而历史上公共卫生变革的最佳激励措施之一就是让公众感觉他们与那些试图不公平地拿走他们的钱同时让他们变得不健康的人竞争。
You got to activate that kind of rebellious spirit.
你必须激活那种叛逆的精神。
The, "Uh-uh, not going to do it." Just telling people it's bad for you doesn't work.
的，“呃呃，不会这样做。”仅仅告诉人们这对你不好是行不通的。
We know that.
我们知道这一点。
How do we incentivize people?
我们如何激励人们？
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I'm not going to give a cliché answer because this is the trillion-dollar question that everybody's asking, and the health of our country really depends on it.
我不会给出陈词滥调的答案，因为这是每个人都在问的价值数万亿美元的问题，而我们国家的健康确实取决于它。
With billions of dollars that this industry has in revenue annually, they can spend a lot of that money on really impactful marketing campaigns, getting people to believe that it's not as unhealthy as Chris Palmer and Andrew Huberman are saying.
该行业每年的收入达数十亿美元，他们可以将大量资金用于真正有影响力的营销活动，让人们相信它并不像克里斯·帕尔默和安德鲁·胡伯曼所说的那样不健康。
It's fine.
没关系。
Everybody deserves a treat.
每个人都应该得到款待。
Within the last couple of weeks, the American Heart Association was actively lobbying Against a Texas bill that was trying to restrict spending food stamp money on junk food.
在过去的几周内，美国心脏协会积极游说反对德克萨斯州的一项法案，该法案试图限制将食品券资金花在垃圾食品上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I saw that clip.
我看到了那个剪辑。
It's so disturbing to see someone from the American Heart Association actively lobbying to keep tax dollars directed towards including sugary soda, not even diet soda, but sugary soda in lunches and food for people who are low income.
看到美国心脏协会的某人积极游说，要求将税收资金用于包括含糖汽水，甚至不是无糖汽水，而是低收入人群的午餐和食品中的含糖汽水，真是令人不安。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
And he went on record as saying this junk food, this ultra-processed food, is not the root cause of obesity or diabetes or any of these health conditions, which is an absolute abject lie.
他公开表示，这种垃圾食品、这种超加工食品并不是肥胖、糖尿病或任何这些健康状况的根本原因，这绝对是一个卑鄙的谎言。
And when you have supposedly respected organizations being bought by industry, promoting misinformation, it's really hard.
当你本应尊重的组织被行业收购、传播错误信息时，这真的很难。
Everybody's all upset that like, "Oh, people don't trust the science.
每个人都感到不安，比如，“哦，人们不相信科学。
They're not respecting the respected organizations." Well, the respected organizations need to step up and start behaving in a respectable manner.
他们不尊重受人尊敬的组织。”好吧，受人尊敬的组织需要站出来并开始以受人尊敬的方式行事。
They need to stop.
他们需要停下来。
The American Heart Association should not be taking a dime from any industry that plays a role in heart disease.
美国心脏协会不应该从任何与心脏病有关的行业中拿走一分钱。
It would be like the American Heart Association taking money from tobacco companies and then coming out and say, "Smoking doesn't really cause heart disease, people.
这就像美国心脏协会从烟草公司拿走钱，然后出来说：“朋友们，吸烟并不会真正导致心脏病。
Everybody calm down.
大家冷静一下。
There's still a lot that we don't know.
还有很多我们不知道的事情。
We need more research.
我们需要更多的研究。
Smoking doesn't cause heart disease, people.
吸烟不会导致心脏病，朋友们。
This is just scaremongering."
这只是危言耸听。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that happened.
那件事发生了。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
"This is just paranoid conspiracy theories."
“这只是偏执的阴谋论。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
That is exactly what's happening now.
这正是现在正在发生的事情。
They're taking money from food companies that have no vested interest in the health of the population that they are feeding.
他们从食品公司那里拿钱，而这些公司对他们所喂养的人口的健康没有既得利益。
They know perfectly well that these foods are highly palatable.
他们非常清楚这些食物非常美味。
And what does that mean?
这意味着什么？
It means addictive.
意思就是会上瘾。
And again, if I was selling food, I would want people to be addicted to the food I was selling.
再说一次，如果我卖食物，我希望人们对我卖的食物上瘾。
Why?
为什么？
Because you sell more.
因为你卖得更多。
Higher margins.
更高的利润。
If you sell food that people aren't addicted to, they'll just move on to the other food that is addictive, and then you'll be out of business.
如果你出售人们不会上瘾的食物，他们就会转向其他令人上瘾的食物，然后你就会破产。
So it's not an easy problem to solve.
所以这不是一个容易解决的问题。
I don't mean to imply it's easy, because if one or two companies steps up and does the right thing, they'll just go out of business.
我并不是说这很容易，因为如果一两家公司挺身而出并做正确的事情，他们就会倒闭。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I feel like the smoking parallel is critical, and maybe the trans fat, the history of entire cities banning the use of trans fats, for instance, or the use of styrofoam containers.
嗯，我觉得吸烟的平行很重要，也许还有反式脂肪，例如整个城市禁止使用反式脂肪的历史，或者使用聚苯乙烯泡沫塑料容器。
It's a very different issue.
这是一个非常不同的问题。
It doesn't directly get to human health, although styrofoam's not good, but it's about waste and environment.
它并不直接影响人体健康，虽然泡沫塑料不好，但它涉及废物和环境。
But I feel like there has to be a top-down ban.
但我觉得必须有一个自上而下的禁令。
And Americans also don't like bans.
美国人也不喜欢禁令。
We like choice, but we don't like the consequences of choice.
我们喜欢选择，但不喜欢选择的后果。
And then we want people to fix the consequences of those choices with treatments that don't have side effects.
然后我们希望人们通过没有副作用的治疗来解决这些选择的后果。
And then this is the cycle that I've observed in my lifetime over and over again.
这就是我一生中一次又一次观察到的循环。
I think it's the rebellion piece.
我认为这是一部叛逆片。
It's when people realize they're being manipulated.
当人们意识到他们被操纵时。
Once people realize they're being manipulated, I feel like that's when they're willing to intervene and stop an otherwise reinforcing activity, a reinforced addictive activity, save money, and take a different direction.
一旦人们意识到他们被操纵了，我觉得他们就愿意干预并停止原本强化的活动，强化的成瘾活动，省钱，并采取不同的方向。
That's inherent to the American spirit.
这是美国精神所固有的。
As much as we love freedom, we have this like, "No, you're not going to do this to me," kind of spirit.
尽管我们热爱自由，但我们也有这样的精神：“不，你不会这样对我”。
We see it everywhere.
我们到处都可以看到它。
This is my belief.
这是我的信念。
But then again, I was kind of a rebellious teen.
但话又说回来，我是一个叛逆的青少年。
But if it's in service to health, then no.
但如果它是为了健康服务，那就不行。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
I'm hopeful.
我充满希望。
By no means am I an expert, but my understanding of what really drove the reduction in tobacco use was the taxes-
我绝不是专家，但我认为真正推动烟草使用减少的是税收——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
...
...
and the ban on advertising, the ban on television advertisements.
以及广告禁令、电视广告禁令。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
That when you get rid of the advertisements, you're no longer tempting people with it, you're no longer able to spread misinformation, and when you make the product so expensive, people just, even if they want to try it, even if they're already addicted to it, now they are highly motivated to get off of it.
当你摆脱广告时，你就不再用它来诱惑人们，你就不再能够传播错误信息，当你把产品做得如此昂贵时，人们只是，即使他们想尝试它，即使他们已经沉迷于它，现在他们也会非常积极地摆脱它。
Why?
为什么？
Because it's costing them an arm and a leg.
因为这让他们损失了一条胳膊和一条腿。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, money hurts.
是的，钱很痛。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
And they realize that, "I just don't want this." We could do similar things with ultra-processed foods.
他们意识到，“我只是不想要这个。”我们可以用超加工食品做类似的事情。
If rebellion, education, whatever, I don't care what works.
如果叛逆、教育等等，我不在乎什么有效。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All of the above.
以上全部。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
But we're all of the above.
但我们都是以上这些。
We're really fighting an uphill battle.
我们确实正在打一场艰苦的战斗。
So ultra-processed foods, that's just one story.
超加工食品，这只是一个故事。
Vitamin, nutrient deficiencies.
维生素、营养素缺乏。
Do you want to go to ketogenic diet?
你想进行生酮饮食吗？
You asked me about that, and I got sidetracked.
你问我这个问题，我就跑题了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, we went into a public health discourse.
是的，我们进行了公共卫生讨论。
We're weaving back and forth.
我们来回编织。
That's what we do here.
这就是我们在这里所做的。
Look, it's very timely, right?
你看，这真是太及时了，对吧？
I don't care if you're the staunchest Democrat or the staunchest Republican or somewhere in between.
我不在乎你是最坚定的民主党人还是最坚定的共和党人或者介于两者之间。
These issues affect everybody, and anyone who just wants to view MAHA as a Republican thing, it's fine.
这些问题影响到每个人，任何只想将 MAHA 视为共和党事物的人都可以。
I'm not affiliated with MAHA.
我不隶属于 MAHA。
I am in favor of improved public health from whatever angles that can meaningfully be done.
我赞成从任何可以有意义的角度改善公共卫生。
So Tell us about ketogenic diet, and then I'd like to ask about things that we can do to improve mitochondrial function in these other bins.
那么请告诉我们有关生酮饮食的信息，然后我想问一下我们可以采取哪些措施来改善其他垃圾箱中的线粒体功能。
But does ketogenic diet improve mitochondrial function, and if so, how does that work?
但生酮饮食是否可以改善线粒体功能？如果可以，它是如何发挥作用的呢？
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
The quick summary story for people who don't know ketogenic.
为不了解生酮的人提供的快速总结故事。
So ketogenic diet is a 100-year-old evidence-based treatment for epilepsy.
因此，生酮饮食是一种已有 100 年历史的基于证据的癫痫治疗方法。
It can stop seizures even when medications fail to.
即使药物无效，它也可以阻止癫痫发作。
We have over a dozen controlled trials of ketogenic diets in children, in particular with treatment-resistant epilepsy.
我们对儿童进行了十多项生酮饮食对照试验，特别是针对难治性癫痫患者。
We have two Cochrane reviews that came out positive.
我们有两条 Cochrane 评论得到了积极的评价。
So Cochrane reviews are the gold standard in the medical field for meta-analyses.
因此，Cochrane 综述是医学领域荟萃分析的黄金标准。
Very rigorous, and they analyzed the data that exists and came to the conclusion that ketogenic diet, if somebody has treatment-resistant epilepsy, compared to treatment as usual, which is try another anti-epileptic medication, the ketogenic diet is six times more likely to result in seizure freedom-
非常严格，他们分析了现有的数据，得出的结论是，如果有人患有难治性癫痫，生酮饮食与常规治疗（即尝试另一种抗癫痫药物）相比，生酮饮食导致无癫痫发作的可能性要高出六倍——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow
哇
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
...
...
than just trying yet another epilepsy pill.
而不是仅仅尝试另一种癫痫药。
So the ketogenic diet is a powerful anticonvulsant treatment.
因此生酮饮食是一种强有力的抗惊厥治疗方法。
We use anticonvulsant treatments in psychiatry every day in tens of millions of people.
我们每天对数千万人进行精神病学抗惊厥治疗。
Lots of these medications are used.
许多这些药物都被使用。
So at this point, we now have over 50 published pilot trials, case series, case reports, other lines of evidence of the ketogenic diet for psychiatric disorders.
目前，我们已经发表了 50 多个生酮饮食治疗精神疾病的试点试验、病例系列、病例报告和其他证据。
Schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, depression, anxiety, anorexia nervosa, surprisingly.
令人惊讶的是，精神分裂症、双相情感障碍、抑郁症、焦虑症、神经性厌食症。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
These 50 reports represent over 1,900 people, and on balance, the ketogenic diet appears to be an effective treatment, sometimes an extraordinarily effective treatment, able to induce remission of schizophrenia or bipolar in people who otherwise had treatment-resistant disorders.
这 50 份报告代表了 1,900 多人，总的来说，生酮饮食似乎是一种有效的治疗方法，有时甚至是非常有效的治疗方法，能够使患有难治性疾病的人的精神分裂症或双相情感障碍得到缓解。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they're going off medication simultaneously?
他们同时停止用药？
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Some of them are.
其中一些是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
I've heard probably from thousands of people around the world since my work has become more public, and actually our first podcast together, hands down the most cited reason people know who I am.
自从我的作品变得更加公开以来，我可能已经听到了世界各地成千上万人的声音，实际上我们的第一个播客，毫无疑问是人们知道我是谁的最常被引用的原因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As they should.
正如他们应该的那样。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Well, I know about you, but it's Huberman, that Huberman Lab podcast.
嗯，我知道你的情况，但这是 Huberman，那个 Huberman 实验室播客。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I'm just a runway for people's incredible messages to take off.
好吧，我只是人们令人难以置信的信息起飞的跑道。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Thank you again for the opportunity to disseminate this word.
再次感谢您给我机会传播这个词。
And because at the end of the day, I'm hearing from thousands of people who simply listened to that podcast, made changes, started a ketogenic diet for their schizophrenia or other treatment-resistant mental disorder, reach out to me, "You saved my life." I can't tell you how many times I've gotten handwritten notes, emails, messages from people who use those words, "You saved my life." I never met this person.
因为归根结底，我听到成千上万的人只是听了那个播客，做出了改变，开始了生酮饮食来治疗他们的精神分裂症或其他难治性精神障碍，然后向我伸出援手，“你救了我的命。”我无法告诉你有多少次我收到了那些使用“你救了我的命”这句话的人的手写便条、电子邮件和信息。我从未见过这个人。
All I did was share this knowledge, and then they saved their own lives with knowledge.
我所做的就是分享这些知识，然后他们用知识拯救了自己的生命。
Coming back to your question now, in a roundabout way, does ketogenic diet impact mitochondrial health?
现在回到你的问题，以一种迂回的方式，生酮饮食会影响线粒体健康吗？
We have strong evidence that it does.
我们有强有力的证据证明确实如此。
So the ketogenic diet is mimicking the fasting state, and I just want to say that again.
所以生酮饮食是在模仿禁食状态，我只想再说一遍。
The ketogenic diet mimics the fasting state.
生酮饮食模仿禁食状态。
What does that mean?
这意味着什么？
It means the ketogenic diet is mimicking no food consumption.
这意味着生酮饮食模仿的是不进食。
So is the ketogenic diet the healthiest diet that everybody should follow?
那么生酮饮食是每个人都应该遵循的最健康的饮食吗？
No, that's not the way I think about it.
不，我不是这么想的。
The ketogenic diet is an intervention.
生酮饮食是一种干预措施。
It is shifting metabolism.
它正在改变新陈代谢。
It is shifting countless systems, signaling pathways, other things, gene expression in the human body and brain, and that results in effects.
它正在改变人体和大脑中无数的系统、信号通路、其他事物、基因表达，从而产生影响。
And the good news is these effects appear to be life-changing and life-saving sometimes.
好消息是，这些效应有时似乎可以改变生活，甚至挽救生命。
So they're highly beneficial effects.
所以它们是非常有益的效果。
Again, dose and the way you do it matter because fasting, the extreme version of fasting, is starvation, and that results in death.
再次强调，剂量和方式很重要，因为禁食（禁食的极端版本）会导致饥饿，并导致死亡。
So that is not at all a good thing.
所以这根本不是一件好事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not feasible.
不可行。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
So let's make sure that if you're going to do a ketogenic diet or a fasting regimen, that you're not depriving yourself of essential nutrition, that you're getting enough calories, you're getting enough nutrients, that you're doing it in a medically sound way so that you're optimizing your health and not hurting your health.
因此，让我们确保，如果您打算进行生酮饮食或禁食疗法，您不会剥夺自己的基本营养，您会获得足够的卡路里，您会获得足够的营养，并且您会以医学上合理的方式进行，以便优化您的健康而不损害您的健康。
It's hard to measure this in humans in vitro because we can't do an intervention to a human and then dissect their brain and biopsy it and look at the mitochondria under the microscope.
很难在体外测量人类的这一点，因为我们无法对人类进行干预，然后解剖他们的大脑并对其进行活检并在显微镜下观察线粒体。
So we mostly have animal data that supports this, but animal data strongly supports that ketogenic interventions improve mitophagy, so getting rid of these old and defective mitochondria.
所以我们主要有动物数据支持这一点，但动物数据强烈支持生酮干预可以改善线粒体自噬，从而摆脱这些陈旧和有缺陷的线粒体。
So you're kind of cleaning house You're getting rid of the bad, and then you're replacing them with new fresh ones, mitochondrial biogenesis, so that at the end of the day, the cell will have more healthy mitochondria.
所以你就像打扫房子一样，你要摆脱坏的，然后你用新的新鲜的线粒体生物发生来取代它们，这样在一天结束时，细胞将拥有更健康的线粒体。
Now, some researchers have really hyper-focused on the ketogenic diet might be working through the gut microbiome.
现在，一些研究人员非常关注生酮饮食可能通过肠道微生物组发挥作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
This gut-brain connection.
这种肠道与大脑的联系。
And we have some evidence that that is true.
我们有一些证据证明这是真的。
So researchers actually took feces from human children with epilepsy before starting a ketogenic diet, and then afterward while they were stable on a ketogenic diet.
因此，研究人员实际上在开始生酮饮食之前和之后在生酮饮食稳定期间采集了患有癫痫症的人类儿童的粪便。
And then they transferred these fecal samples to mice who were predisposed to epilepsy or predisposed to seizures.
然后他们将这些粪便样本转移到易患癫痫或易癫痫发作的小鼠体内。
When they took the feces from the children while the children still were seizing, the mice were more likely to seize.
当他们在孩子们还在抓东西的时候从孩子们身上拿走粪便时，老鼠更有可能抓东西。
When they took the feces from the children doing the ketogenic diet and transferred it to the mice, the mice were less likely to have seizures.
当他们从进行生酮饮食的儿童身上取出粪便并将其转移到小鼠体内时，小鼠癫痫发作的可能性较小。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Even though the mice were not on ketogenic diets.
即使小鼠没有进行生酮饮食。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
So there's something in the feces of children with epilepsy doing ketogenic diets that has an anti-seizure effect.
因此，进行生酮饮食的癫痫儿童的粪便中含有一些具有抗癫痫作用的物质。
What could that something be?
那可能是什么？
It could be the gut microbiome, but it could be molecules, neurotransmitters, neuropeptides, other things that those microbes are producing, or it could be neuropeptides and other factors that the gut cells are producing.
它可能是肠道微生物组，也可能是分子、神经递质、神经肽、这些微生物产生的其他物质，也可能是神经肽和肠道细胞产生的其他因子。
So we really don't know for sure what exactly is it.
所以我们真的不确定它到底是什么。
So on the surface, there's something in the feces, there's a gut microbiome, a gut-brain connection thing.
所以从表面上看，粪便中有一些东西，有肠道微生物组，有肠脑连接的东西。
What does that have to do with mitochondria?
这和线粒体有什么关系？
So another research group did that same model, got mice to have an anti-seizure effect from a ketogenic diet, and then dissected their brains looking for what changed in the brain.
因此，另一个研究小组做了同样的模型，让小鼠通过生酮饮食获得抗癫痫作用，然后解剖它们的大脑，寻找大脑发生了什么变化。
How exactly is a ketogenic diet having an anti-seizure effect in the brain?
生酮饮食究竟如何对大脑产生抗癫痫作用？
Because the pathological finding, seizure, is occurring in the brain.
因为病理发现，癫痫发作，发生在大脑中。
And when they analyzed genetic changes, upregulation, downregulation, it all centered on mitochondria, that the changes in the gut were resulting in mitochondrial changes in the brain, which means brain energy metabolism in the brain.
当他们分析基因变化、上调、下调时，一切都集中在线粒体上，肠道的变化导致了大脑中线粒体的变化，这意味着大脑中的大脑能量代谢。
And so again, an umbrella theory doesn't replace what we know.
同样，保护伞理论并不能取代我们所知道的。
It's not gut microbiome or serotonin.
它不是肠道微生物组或血清素。
It's not gut microbiome or mitochondria.
它不是肠道微生物组或线粒体。
It's both.
两者都是。
Both of them are true, and it's all interconnected.
它们都是真实的，而且都是相互关联的。
So I do think we've got more than enough data that ketogenic therapies impact brain metabolism, which then impacts neurotransmitters.
所以我确实认为我们已经获得了足够多的数据表明生酮疗法会影响大脑新陈代谢，进而影响神经递质。
Really what I hope will become one of many really important studies published by Ian Campbell and colleagues in the UK, that they just did a pilot trial, 20 patients with bipolar disorder, put on ketogenic diets, and they found wide-ranging improvements in metabolic health biomarkers like weight, blood pressure, other things.
我真的希望这项研究能够成为英国 Ian Campbell 及其同事发表的众多非常重要的研究之一，他们刚刚进行了一项试点试验，对 20 名双相情感障碍患者进行生酮饮食，他们发现体重、血压等代谢健康生物标志物有了广泛的改善。
But they also found a reduction in brain glutamate activity, which is often associated with bipolar disorder and hyperexcitability and seizures.
但他们也发现大脑谷氨酸活性降低，这通常与双相情感障碍、过度兴奋和癫痫发作有关。
And so that helps us understand, again, it's not metabolic or glutamate, a neurotransmitter, it's both.
这再次帮助我们理解，它不是代谢物，也不是谷氨酸，而是一种神经递质，而是两者兼而有之。
It's putting it together.
它正在把它放在一起。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, the Campbell study's really interesting.
是的，坎贝尔的研究真的很有趣。
We'll link to that in the show note captions.
我们将在节目注释标题中链接到该链接。
And incidentally, we will also link to this American Heart Association appalling- ...
顺便说一句，我们还将链接到这个令人震惊的美国心脏协会 - ...
quote unquote, "testimony."
引用不引用，“证词”。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Sorry, AHA.
抱歉，啊哈。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm not sorry.
我不后悔。
I'm not sorry.
我不后悔。
But then again, I'm not a physician, so I don't have to worry about that.
但话又说回来，我不是医生，所以我不必担心这一点。
Well, maybe I do.
好吧，也许我会。
Anyway.
反正。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
I'm not a cardiologist.
我不是心脏病专家。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is there any rationale for people who don't have epilepsy or don't suffer from bipolar or schizophrenia, but like myself, would like to keep our mitochondrial function as strong as possible, for doing a brief ketogenic intervention?
对于那些没有癫痫症或没有患有躁郁症或精神分裂症但像我一样希望保持线粒体功能尽可能强大的人来说，进行短暂的生酮干预有什么理由吗？
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Yes.
是的。
The answer is yes.
答案是肯定的。
So I'm going to lump ketogenic with other fasting-mimicking diets and fasting itself.
因此，我将把生酮与其他模仿禁食的饮食和禁食本身混为一谈。
So can intermittent fasting, or can cycles of fasting have health-improving qualities or health-improving effects?
那么间歇性禁食或循环禁食是否可以具有改善健康的品质或改善健康的效果呢？
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
So interestingly, before I talk about even some of the science on this, and it's not super robust.
有趣的是，在我谈论这方面的一些科学之前，它并不是非常可靠。
Why?
为什么？
Because, again, we don't fund diet studies.
因为，我们不资助饮食研究。
There's no money to be made from dietary interventions.
饮食干预是赚不到钱的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
There's no patent on it.
它没有专利。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Nobody cares about dietary interventions.
没有人关心饮食干预。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But there are a lot of studies on exercise interventions.
但有很多关于运动干预的研究。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
But even those are not huge-
但即使这些也不是很大——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
...
...
randomized controlled trials with 10,000 participants.
有 10,000 名参与者参与的随机对照试验。
Even the federal government will fund Large-scale medication trials, statin studies, and others, but they often don't.
即使联邦政府也会资助大规模药物试验、他汀类药物研究等，但他们往往不这样做。
There have been a few.
有一些。
The Women's Health Initiative funded a massive dietary intervention study, and unfortunately, that was a huge disappointment to the field because it was negative.
妇女健康倡议资助了一项大规模的饮食干预研究，不幸的是，该研究结果令人失望，因为结果是否定的。
They randomized women to just keep doing the diet you're eating or go on a low-fat diet, and the low-fat diet didn't do anything for their heart health or other objective outcome measures.
他们随机将女性随机分组，让她们继续保持正在吃的饮食，或者继续低脂饮食，而低脂饮食对她们的心脏健康或其他客观结果指标没有任何作用。
And put another way, just to really close this for people, it means a low-fat diet is no better than the standard American diet.
换句话说，对于人们来说，这意味着低脂饮食并不比标准的美国饮食更好。
A low-fat diet is equivalent.
低脂饮食是等效的。
You get equivalent health effects from a low-fat diet to a standard American diet.
低脂饮食与标准美式饮食对健康的影响是相当的。
That's really bad.
那真的很糟糕。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's bad.
那很糟糕。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
So low-fat diets need to go away, and people who promote low-fat diets need to stop promoting.
因此，低脂饮食需要消失，而提倡低脂饮食的人也需要停止宣传。
They need to come up to speed with the science and just move on.
他们需要跟上科学的步伐，然后继续前进。
At least acknowledge there are healthy fats.
至少承认存在健康脂肪。
Even though fat has more calories, don't worry about those calories.
尽管脂肪含有更多卡路里，但不要担心这些卡路里。
Worry about the long-term health effects.
担心长期健康影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, you've got to get those monounsaturated fats, and you've got to eat your omega-3s, and I'm a believer in you need to get some butter here and there.
是的，你必须摄入那些单不饱和脂肪，你必须吃 omega-3，而且我相信你需要到处摄入一些黄油。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
You were asking me about intermittent-
你问我关于间歇性的问题-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
...
...
ketogenic diets or intermittent fasting.
生酮饮食或间歇性禁食。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Intermittent fasting.
间歇性禁食。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
So I'll just say that we have a long history in multiple cultures on Earth for thousands of years.
所以我只想说，我们在地球上的多种文化中拥有数千年的悠久历史。
Fasting has been part of healing rituals.
禁食一直是治疗仪式的一部分。
India, China, Christian, fasting has been a part of rituals.
印度、中国、基督教，禁食一直是仪式的一部分。
And most people just assume it's religious folklore or just silliness or whatever, but I actually think millennia of humans, we're not all stupid idiots, and that some people along the way actually noticed this seems to do something useful.
大多数人只是认为这是宗教民间传说或只是愚蠢或其他什么，但我实际上认为几千年来的人类，我们并不都是愚蠢的白痴，而且沿途有些人实际上注意到这似乎做了一些有用的事情。
And that's probably why it found its way in every culture and persisted for thousands of years, because there was actually something meaningful happening.
这可能就是为什么它在每种文化中都找到了自己的方式并持续了数千年，因为实际上发生了一些有意义的事情。
So what we have now in terms of more controlled trials, I'm going to cite Valter Longo.
因此，我们现在拥有更多对照试验，我将引用 Valter Longo 的话。
He doesn't call his diet a ketogenic diet, although it is a ketogenic diet.
他并不称他的饮食为生酮饮食，尽管它是生酮饮食。
He calls his diet a fasting mimicking diet, and it's primarily a plant-based, 600-calorie-a-day diet.
他称自己的饮食为模拟禁食饮食，主要是植物性饮食，每天摄入 600 卡路里热量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some people are going to hear that and just gasp.
有些人听到这句话后就会倒吸一口冷气。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
It is proprietary to him.
这是他专有的。
I have no relationship with him.
我和他没有任何关系。
I'm not promoting his product, but he has a proprietary product called ProLon.
我不是在推销他的产品，但他有一个名为 ProLon 的专有产品。
You can get the benefits by just not eating anything or by eating 600 calories a day.
只需不吃任何东西或每天摄入 600 卡路里热量即可获得好处。
You don't need to buy that proprietary product.
您不需要购买该专有产品。
But because he is selling this product, I believe he's using most or all of the proceeds from the sale of that to fund research on it.
但因为他正在销售该产品，所以我相信他将销售该产品的大部分或全部收益用于资助该产品的研究。
They've done a series of studies that five-day cycles several times a year seem to be fine and improve a wide range of health biomarkers.
他们进行了一系列研究，发现一年几次为期五天的周期似乎效果很好，可以改善多种健康生物标志物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
And there's reason to believe that it may help improve metabolic health and longevity.
我们有理由相信它可能有助于改善代谢健康和长寿。
So he's primarily a longevity aging researcher.
所以他主要是一名长寿衰老研究人员。
He is promoting that.
他正在推动这一点。
Could ketogenic diets also produce similar effects?
生酮饮食也能产生类似的效果吗？
I believe they can.
我相信他们可以。
Again, it gets really controversial fast because ketogenic diets can sometimes include red meat, and then we got the American Heart Association telling us that red meat's bad for you and don't eat that red meat.
再次，它很快就引起了争议，因为生酮饮食有时可以包括红肉，然后美国心脏协会告诉我们红肉对你不好，不要吃红肉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Nonsense.
废话。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
And then we get these splintering groups, and we've got the vegan group saying that's awful for you, and unfortunately, it just leaves people confused about what are we supposed to do?
然后我们得到了这些分裂的团体，我们有素食主义者团体说这对你来说很糟糕，不幸的是，这只会让人们对我们应该做什么感到困惑？
Do we eat red meat?
我们吃红肉吗？
Do we not eat red meat?
我们不吃红肉吗？
Do we like-
我们喜欢吗-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In moderation from healthy sources
适量使用健康来源
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
...
...
saturated fat?
饱和脂肪？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I feel like but in moderation from healthy sources, not the processed stuff.
我觉得但要适量，来自健康来源，而不是加工过的东西。
But I get it.
但我明白了。
People have animal reasons or environmental reasons they don't do it.
人们出于动物原因或环境原因而不这样做。
The debate goes on and on.
争论一直在持续。
I've observed some people who are vegan who seem very healthy, very robust.
我观察到一些纯素食者看起来非常健康、非常强壮。
Aesthetically, they present well, if I'm just going to be direct about it.
从美学上来说，如果我直接说的话，它们表现得很好。
And then I've seen some people who go vegan, and it's the exact opposite.
然后我看到一些人吃纯素，但事实恰恰相反。
And then I think the strict carnivore thing seems to work for very few people, but the ones who love it really love it.
然后我认为严格的肉食动物似乎对很少的人有效，但喜欢它的人真的很喜欢它。
But even the folks like Paul Saladino, who were the so-called carnivore diet, then it became animal-based, and it now includes fruits and cucumbers and tomatoes and some dairy and so it's-
但即使是像保罗·萨拉迪诺这样所谓的肉食动物饮食的人，后来也变成了以动物为基础的饮食，现在包括水果、黄瓜、西红柿和一些乳制品，所以它是——
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Honey.
亲爱的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And honey.
还有蜂蜜。
And I like Paul.
我喜欢保罗。
I get along well with Paul.
我和保罗相处得很好。
I also get along with Layne Norton, and they don't get along.
我和莱恩·诺顿也相处得很好，但他们合不来。
But I think it's to each their own within the context of the correct number of calories for a given person and their activity levels.
但我认为这对每个人来说都是在特定人的正确卡路里数量及其活动水平的背景下进行的。
But this idea of periodically doing perhaps a fast along the lines of the Longo ProLon thing, or a total fast, or water fast, I guess it's called, or perhaps intermittent fasting on a more reasonable schedule.
但这种定期禁食的想法可能是按照 Longo ProLon 的方式进行，或者完全禁食，或者水禁食，我想这就是所谓的，或者可能是按照更合理的时间表进行间歇性禁食。
Are there any data on that?
有这方面的数据吗？
Like eating only between the hours of, say, 11:00 a.m.
比如只在上午 11:00 之间进食。
and 7:00 p.m., which is what I happen to do reflexively unless I wake up very hungry, which is really rare.
晚上 7:00，这是我本能地做的事情，除非我醒来时非常饿，这种情况确实很少见。
I don't know why.
我不知道为什么。
Maybe it's a function of getting older, but Is there any evidence that intermittent fasting that doesn't involve entire day and night fasts, but more of the time restricted feeding to eight hours or six hours, that it can be beneficial for mitochondrial function if it's done for short bouts of two to four weeks?
也许这是年龄增长的一个功能，但有没有证据表明间歇性禁食不涉及全天和夜间禁食，但更多的时间将进食限制在八小时或六小时内，如果进行两到四个星期的短期禁食，可能对线粒体功能有益？
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
My understanding of the literature is that it's a mixed bag-
我对文学的理解是它是一个混合体——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
...
...
when it comes to time restricted eating and intermittent fasting.
当谈到限制饮食和间歇性禁食时。
Because more often than not, they don't control what people are eating when they're eating.
因为通常情况下，他们无法控制人们在吃饭时吃什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh.
哦。
Well, that's no good.
嗯，这样不好。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Those studies mostly are designed to just say, "Only eat between 11:00 a.m.
这些研究大多只是说：“只在上午 11:00 之间吃东西”。
and 7:00 p.m."
和晚上 7:00”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So because-
所以因为——
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
"And eat whatever you want," and as though it doesn't matter what they're eating.
“想吃什么就吃什么”，好像吃什么并不重要。
And some people are binging on ultra-processed foods and others are eating like an adult.
有些人大量食用超加工食品，而另一些人则像成年人一样饮食。
And then you've got everything in between as though that doesn't play a role.
然后你就得到了介于两者之间的一切，就好像这不起作用一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
And so you get these studies that say it doesn't do anything useful.
所以你得到的这些研究表明它没有任何用处。
You get other studies that say maybe it does something useful.
其他研究表明它可能有一些有用的作用。
So I think at the end of the day, I will say this.
所以我想最后我会这么说。
I've been talking a while with a really seasoned, established expert in the nutritional space, in the conservative nutritional space.
我已经与一位在营养领域、保守的营养领域非常经验丰富、成熟的专家交谈了一段时间。
He's held several government positions.
他曾担任多个政府职务。
He's helped presidents and others with campaigns.
他帮助总统和其他人进行竞选活动。
And he has made a very strong case to me that less than 5% of the research budget from the NIH is spent on nutritional research.
他向我提出了一个非常有力的论据，即 NIH 的研究预算中不到 5% 用于营养研究。
The NIH has an office called the Office of Nutritional Research focused on organizing collaborations among different NIH institutes and centers.
NIH 设有一个名为营养研究办公室的办公室，专注于组织 NIH 不同机构和中心之间的合作。
And their annual budget for a major government organization, their annual budget is $1.3 million, with an M, dollars.
他们的一个主要政府组织的年度预算，他们的年度预算是130万美元，其中有一个M，美元。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My goodness.
天哪。
That's a-
那是一个——
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Which is a joke.
这是一个笑话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, that's a joke.
是的，那是个笑话。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
It is a laughable joke.
这是一个令人发笑的笑话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can't do much with that.
对此无能为力。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
And without trying to make this political, there have been people who've tried to increase the funding for nutrition research.
在没有试图将其政治化的情况下，有人试图增加营养研究的资金。
Recently, it was proposed to increase that funding to $130 million, and it was cut.
最近，有人提议将该资金增加到 1.3 亿美元，但后来被削减了。
That idea was killed by the lobbyists of the food companies.
这个想法被食品公司的游说者扼杀了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm going to get really vocal about this lobbying through the American Heart Association thing because I was just shocked, right?
我将通过美国心脏协会的事情大声疾呼，因为我只是感到震惊，对吧？
For all the obvious reasons.
出于所有显而易见的原因。
American Heart Association, you assume that they are all about healthy hearts, and we know metabolism and healthy weight and activity and all that is healthy for hearts, and it was so clear that they were on the take from these food companies, and that's why they sent-- Even just the timing and the delivery.
美国心脏协会，你认为它们都是关于健康的心脏，我们知道新陈代谢、健康的体重和活动以及所有对心脏健康有益的东西，很明显，他们是从这些食品公司那里获取的，这就是他们发送的原因——即使只是时间和交付。
Again, I'll post to the link because it's just jaw-dropping.
再次，我将发布该链接，因为它令人瞠目结舌。
You're like, "I can't believe this." It's like the old commercials of the people from the cigarette industry saying that the cigarettes don't cause cancer, and they know it does.
你会说，“我简直不敢相信这一点。”这就像香烟行业人士的旧广告说香烟不会致癌，而且他们知道它会致癌。
And this is happening now in real time, and this conversation will certainly assist in drawing attention to this.
现在这一切正在实时发生，这次对话肯定会有助于引起人们对此的关注。
I'll probably do a social media post on it as well.
我可能也会在社交媒体上发布帖子。
But there's this thing that happens in medicine and public health where the thing that's so obviously the problem is it's not even staring us in the face.
但在医学和公共卫生领域却发生了这样的事情，其中最明显的问题是它甚至没有直面我们的脸。
It's slapping us in the face.
它正在打我们的脸。
And we take 20 to 30 years relying largely on messaging through Hollywood, what actors are doing, what athletes are doing.
我们花了 20 到 30 年的时间，主要依靠好莱坞传递的信息，演员在做什么，运动员在做什么。
Then people are like, "Oh, yeah, maybe this is a thing." And then the battleship just slow-- eventually just pivots.
然后人们会说，“哦，是的，也许这是一件事。”然后战舰就变得缓慢——最终只是旋转。
But there's been decades of horrible misfortune and loss in mental health and physical health, people thinking that there's something wrong with them or et cetera, et cetera.
但几十年来，心理健康和身体健康遭受了可怕的不幸和损失，人们认为自己出了问题，等等。
It's asinine.
真是愚蠢。
It's crazy.
太疯狂了。
And so I'm excited about MAHA even though I don't have any affiliation to it because it's the first time in my lifetime that anyone said, like, "Hey, let's actually just talk about and think about how to really get healthy.
因此，我对 MAHA 感到兴奋，尽管我与它没有任何关系，因为这是我一生中第一次有人说，“嘿，让我们实际上谈谈并思考如何真正变得健康。
What do we know right now?" And so I'm not a political person, but I think it's really important that we get focused on what's literally slapping us right in the face with like, this is absurd.
我们现在知道什么？”所以我不是一个政治人物，但我认为我们必须关注那些真正打在我们脸上的事情，这很荒谬，这一点非常重要。
Forgive me for editorializing here.
请原谅我在这里进行社论。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But we keep coming back to this.
但我们不断回到这一点。
We know what we need to do.
我们知道我们需要做什么。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
We know what we need to do, but yeah, we have not had the political will to do it.
我们知道我们需要做什么，但是，是的，我们没有这样做的政治意愿。
I think the hope is that one hopefully of many good things that could come out of MAHA is separating industry interests from the health and welfare of the American population.
我认为，希望 MAHA 能够带来许多好处，其中之一就是将行业利益与美国人民的健康和福利分开。
I think if we can do that and we can begin doing unbiased research to really determine what is it about ultra-processed foods that results in harm.
我认为如果我们能做到这一点，我们就可以开始进行公正的研究，以真正确定超加工食品造成伤害的原因。
We know they result in harm.
我们知道它们会造成伤害。
Is it just that they're so delicious that people consume extra calories, and it's still just as simple as calories?
难道只是它们太美味了，让人消耗了额外的热量，而这仍然只是卡路里那么简单吗？
Or is it that there's something in those chemicals that makes the foods addictive?
或者是这些化学物质中含有某种使食物上瘾的东西？
Or is it that there's something in those chemicals that actually impairs mitochondrial function?
或者这些化学物质中的某些物质实际上会损害线粒体功能？
I think we have evidence to support all three of those hypotheses.
我认为我们有证据支持所有这三个假设。
Do people consume extra calories?
人们会消耗额外的卡路里吗？
Yes.
是的。
You cited one of now many studies documenting that.
您引用了现在许多记录这一点的研究中的一项。
Are they addictive?
它们会上瘾吗？
Yes, unequivocally, they are.
是的，毫无疑问，他们是。
The most common eating disorder diagnosed today in the United States is called binge eating disorder What are the criteria for binge eating disorder?
如今在美国诊断出的最常见的饮食失调症称为暴食症。暴食症的标准是什么？
It's basically addiction to ultra-processed foods.
这基本上是对超加工食品的上瘾。
If you look at the criteria and if you look at the behaviors, when people engage in binges, they're not binging on steak and broccoli, ever.
如果你看看标准和行为，当人们暴饮暴食时，他们永远不会暴饮暴食牛排和西兰花。
Never are they binging on steak and broccoli.
他们从来不吃牛排和西兰花。
They're binging almost exclusively on ultra-processed foods.
他们几乎只吃超加工食品。
And then they go through these cycles where they binge on them, and then they beat themselves up, and they feel disgusting, and they're ashamed, and they're humiliated.
然后他们会经历这些循环，他们对这些东西狂吃，然后他们殴打自己，他们感到恶心，他们感到羞耻，他们被羞辱。
And then they try their best, they white-knuckle it to avoid those foods, and then something bad happens in their life.
然后他们尽最大努力，竭尽全力避免吃这些食物，然后他们的生活中就会发生一些不好的事情。
They get stressed, somebody cuts them off in traffic, they've had a hard day at work, their boss came down on them, whatever, and then they go home and they're like, "Screw it.
他们感到压力很大，有人在交通中拦住了他们，他们工作了一天辛苦了，他们的老板对他们发了脾气，等等，然后他们回家后就会说，“管他的。
I hate my life.
我讨厌我的生活。
I hate myself.
我讨厌我自己。
Health doesn't even matter for me."
健康对我来说根本不重要。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Classic addiction cycle.
经典的成瘾循环。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
"And I may as well just enjoy myself."
“我也可以尽情享受。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
And just like an alcoholic would, just like a cocaine addict would.
就像酒鬼一样，就像可卡因成瘾者一样。
It's not that people are using every single day.
这并不是人们每天都在使用。
They go through cycles.
他们经历循环。
And it's really tragic.
这真的很悲剧。
Harvard Medical School, just literally two days ago, came out with an article, "Is Sugar Addictive?" And their conclusion, no. Because sugar's found in fruit, so it can't be addictive.
哈佛医学院就在两天前发表了一篇文章，《糖会让人上瘾吗？》他们的结论是，不。因为水果中含有糖分，所以不会让人上瘾。
I'm like, "Really?"
我想，“真的吗？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not the same sugar.
不是同一种糖。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
They went out of their way to say, "Well, it's not addictive like alcohol and nicotine because people sometimes have trouble stopping those completely." And I'm thinking, "And what do you think is different about sugar?"
他们特意说：“嗯，它不像酒精和尼古丁那样让人上瘾，因为人们有时很难完全戒掉它们。”我在想，“你认为糖有什么不同？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's unbelievable.
真是难以置信。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Do you really don't understand that some people can't stop consuming ultra-processed, high-sugar foods?
你真的不明白有些人无法停止食用超加工、高糖食品吗？
You really don't understand that?
你真的不明白吗？
Are you living in an ivory tower?
你生活在象牙塔里吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes.
是的。
And I'm not.
而我不是。
I'm certainly not any longer.
我当然不再是了。
And it's also, I think, important that the highly processed foods and the palatability and the accessibility and the low cost.
我认为，深加工食品的适口性、可获得性和低成本也很重要。
We're not talking about eliminating pie and pastries.
我们并不是在谈论取消馅饼和糕点。
I think sometimes people think, "Oh, I'll never have a muffin again.
我想有时人们会想，“哦，我再也不会吃松饼了。
I'll never have a chocolate croissant." That's not really what we're talking about.
我永远不会吃巧克力牛角面包。”这并不是我们真正要讨论的。
We're not talking about a homemade cake.
我们不是在谈论自制蛋糕。
We're not talking about cupcakes.
我们不是在谈论纸杯蛋糕。
We're talking about things that are easily purchased at low cost, unpackaged, eaten in transit.
我们谈论的是那些容易以低成本购买、未包装、在运输途中食用的东西。
What we're doing, I realize, is painting this picture of a little bit of the past, the recent past.
我意识到，我们正在做的事情是描绘一些过去的画面，不久前的过去。
But what you do so beautifully is you're really orienting us where we are now, and the fact that we need more science, but we know an awful lot, and there's so much that we can do.
但你做得如此美妙的是，你确实为我们指明了我们现在所处的位置，事实上我们需要更多的科学，但我们知道的东西非常多，而且我们能做的还有很多。
And these six pillars of diet, exercise, sleep, avoiding excessive substance use or abuse, excuse me, stress mitigation, relationships, and purpose, which center back on mitochondrial health.
饮食、锻炼、睡眠、避免过度使用或滥用药物、缓解压力、人际关系和目的这六大支柱，都以线粒体健康为中心。
Could we talk about some of the other things that we can do for mitochondrial health?
我们可以谈谈我们可以为线粒体健康做的其他一些事情吗？
Things we can take.
我们可以带走的东西。
These days, we're hearing a lot about creatine.
这些天，我们听到了很多关于肌酸的信息。
What are the data on creatine and mitochondrial function or brain function?
关于肌酸和线粒体功能或大脑功能的数据是什么？
I'm not familiar with these data.
我对这些数据不熟悉。
I should be.
我应该是。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
So creatine is a molecule that is foundational to energy transformation in cells.
因此，肌酸是细胞能量转化的基础分子。
So creatine goes into the mitochondria, and there it gets combined with ATP to become phosphocreatine.
因此，肌酸进入线粒体，并在那里与 ATP 结合形成磷酸肌酸。
And then it leaves the mitochondrion and goes to places in the cell where energy is needed, like a synapse or a ribosome that's trying to make some new proteins or something else.
然后它离开线粒体，前往细胞中需要能量的地方，例如试图制造一些新蛋白质或其他东西的突触或核糖体。
It goes to places in the cell where energy is needed, and it can combine with ADP to be converted back into ATP.
它到达细胞中需要能量的地方，并且可以与 ADP 结合，转化回 ATP。
So it's basically a phosphate shuttle.
所以它基本上是一个磷酸盐穿梭机。
Creatine is a phosphate shuttle that is foundational to energy metabolism.
肌酸是一种磷酸盐穿梭物，是能量代谢的基础。
It is foundational to mitochondrial function.
它是线粒体功能的基础。
Our bodies can produce creatine on its own, as long as we have the essential vitamins and nutrients that make it up, and there are several of those, or we can consume creatine.
只要我们拥有构成肌酸的必需维生素和营养素（其中有多种），我们的身体就可以自行产生肌酸，或者我们也可以摄入肌酸。
Creatine is found only in animal-based products, animal-sourced foods.
肌酸仅存在于动物性产品、动物源性食品中。
It is not found in plant-sourced foods.
它在植物源食品中不存在。
So what we know is that because creatine is found in large quantities in the brain, so we can actually measure it using mass spec kind of scans, and we know that there's a range.
所以我们知道的是，因为大脑中存在大量肌酸，所以我们实际上可以使用质谱扫描来测量它，并且我们知道存在一个范围。
Some people have low levels of creatine, and some people have higher levels of creatine.
有些人的肌酸水平较低，有些人的肌酸水平较高。
People who consume less animal-sourced foods, like vegans and vegetarians, on average, tend to have lower levels of creatine in their brain and muscles and other tissues.
平均而言，食用动物源性食品较少的人，例如素食主义者和素食主义者，其大脑、肌肉和其他组织中的肌酸含量往往较低。
People with neuropsychiatric disorders, schizophrenia, Alzheimer's disease, depression, have been found to have lower levels of creatine than people who do not have those disorders.
研究发现，患有神经精神疾病、精神分裂症、阿尔茨海默病、抑郁症的人的肌酸水平比没有这些疾病的人低。
So we have reason to believe that creatine, from studies like that, that there is an association, meaning a correlation, between low levels of creatine and brain disorders that we call neurological or psychiatric disorders.
因此，我们有理由相信肌酸，从类似的研究来看，低水平的肌酸与我们称为神经或精神疾病的大脑疾病之间存在关联，即相关性。
So the next logical question from a scientist should be, well, if we supplement with creatine, can that improve symptoms of neuropsychiatric disorders?
因此，科学家提出的下一个合乎逻辑的问题应该是，如果我们补充肌酸，是否可以改善神经精神疾病的症状？
And we do have evidence to support that.
我们确实有证据支持这一点。
Not huge randomized controlled trials in tens of thousands of people, because again, that would require government funding, because creatine is off-patent.
不是对数万人进行大规模的随机对照试验，因为这需要政府资助，因为肌酸的专利已经过期。
Nobody's going to make a lot of money from doing a creatine study because anybody can sell creatine.
没有人会通过肌酸研究赚很多钱，因为任何人都可以出售肌酸。
Anybody can make it and market it.
任何人都可以制造它并营销它。
It's off-patent.
它已经过专利了。
But we do have randomized controlled trial data with creatine showing that it can improve symptoms of major depression, it can augment antidepressants, it can improve symptoms of bipolar disorder, it can improve symptoms of neurodegenerative disorders like cognition in Alzheimer's disease or mild cognitive impairment.
但我们确实有肌酸的随机对照试验数据表明，它可以改善重度抑郁症的症状，可以增强抗抑郁药的作用，可以改善双相情感障碍的症状，可以改善神经退行性疾病的症状，例如阿尔茨海默病的认知或轻度认知障碍。
But again, the studies are on the smaller side.
但同样，这些研究规模较小。
They're not super robust quality.
它们的质量不是超级坚固。
But unless the government steps up, unless the NIH steps up and funds a large, well-done, well-controlled, randomized controlled trial of creatine versus placebo for any of these conditions, the skeptics and the hardcore scientists are always going to say, "Well, we don't have good quality data." Well, we're never going to have good quality data because there's no product.
但除非政府采取行动，除非美国国立卫生研究院采取行动并资助一项大型的、做得很好、控制良好的随机对照试验，针对任何这些情况进行肌酸与安慰剂的比较，否则怀疑论者和铁杆科学家总是会说，“好吧，我们没有高质量的数据。”好吧，我们永远不会拥有高质量的数据，因为没有产品。
That's where we're at as a field.
这就是我们所处的领域。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you recommend it to your patients?
您向您的患者推荐它吗？
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Not right away.
不是马上。
There's more research coming out, and there's more reason to believe that maybe I should be recommending it to patients more often than I currently do.
越来越多的研究正在进行中，并且有更多的理由相信也许我应该比现在更频繁地向患者推荐它。
It certainly lines up with a metabolic kind of mitochondrial, improve metabolic health, improve brain health simultaneously.
它确实与代谢线粒体相一致，改善代谢健康，同时改善大脑健康。
It lines up perfectly with that.
它与此完全一致。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
And I just want to remind people, before you focus on what to take, focus on what you should be doing with your lifestyle.
我只是想提醒人们，在你关注该采取什么之前，先关注你应该在生活方式中做什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
What is your diet nutrition?
你的饮食营养是什么？
Are you getting adequate sleep?
你的睡眠充足吗？
Are you getting some bright light in the morning?
早上你有明亮的光线吗？
Do you have relationships and purpose in life?
你有人际关系和人生目标吗？
Are you overusing harmful substances?
您是否过度使用有害物质？
Because I want to be the first to say, if you're not doing those things, creatine doesn't stand a chance in hell of helping your health.
因为我想第一个说，如果你不做这些事情，肌酸根本没有机会帮助你的健康。
It just does not stand a chance to improve your health.
它只是没有机会改善您的健康。
There is no supplement that you can take that will undo the damage that a harmful lifestyle will have on you and your health.
您服用的任何补充剂都无法消除有害生活方式对您和您的健康造成的损害。
And the reality is the statistics are abysmal.
现实是统计数据非常糟糕。
One-third of American adults are not getting adequate sleep.
三分之一的美国成年人睡眠不足。
60% of the foods that Americans are consuming are ultra-processed foods.
美国人消费的食品中有 60% 是超加工食品。
The real money is not in the question, what should I take?
真正的钱不是问题，我该拿什么？
The real money is in, what should I do?
真钱到了，我该怎么办？
How can I change my life and my lifestyle to improve my health?
我怎样才能改变我的生活和生活方式来改善我的健康？
And, so I just want to drill that home for people, for better or worse.
而且，所以我只是想为人们钻探这个家，无论好坏。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I first learned about methylene blue from owning fish tanks.
我第一次了解到亚甲蓝是通过拥有鱼缸。
You clean fish tanks with them, or it's a thing you use.
你用它们清洁鱼缸，或者它是你使用的东西。
Now, there's a lot of interest in methylene blue ever since a video of Robert Kennedy putting methylene blue in his water on a plane kind of went viral.
现在，自从罗伯特·肯尼迪在飞机上将亚甲蓝放入水中的视频疯传以来，人们对亚甲蓝产生了很大的兴趣。
Methylene blue has been around a very long time.
亚甲基蓝已经存在很长时间了。
What are your thoughts on it?
您对此有何看法？
What does it do?
它有什么作用？
Is it going to help mitochondria?
它会帮助线粒体吗？
Is it for everybody?
适合所有人吗？
I don't take it.
我不接受。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
I don't take it either, and I've not used it in any patients so far, but I'm very interested in possibly starting to use it in controlled ways in patients who clearly need something more.
我也不服用它，到目前为止我还没有在任何患者中使用它，但我非常有兴趣开始以受控方式在明显需要更多东西的患者中使用它。
We're doing all of the right things.
我们正在做所有正确的事情。
We're doing the lifestyle things.
我们正在做生活方式的事情。
We're doing ketogenic interventions or other things, and they still are not well.
我们正在做生酮干预或其他事情，但效果仍然不好。
There's still room for improvement.
还有改进的空间。
So methylene blue, as you said, has been around for a long time.
正如你所说，亚甲基蓝已经存在很长时间了。
It's relatively cheap as a fish tank cleaner.
作为鱼缸清洁剂，它相对便宜。
Methylene blue, fascinatingly, is primarily, exclusively a mitochondrial agent.
令人着迷的是，亚甲蓝主要是一种线粒体剂。
So it is an electron acceptor and donor.
因此它是电子受体和供体。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
So that is what methylene blue does.
这就是亚甲基蓝的作用。
It can accept electrons, and it can donate electrons.
它可以接受电子，也可以捐赠电子。
So it's an electron shuttle, if you will.
如果你愿意的话，它是一个电子航天飞机。
And how does that relate to mitochondria?
这与线粒体有何关系？
Mitochondria, as they are producing ATP, electrons are flowing down the electron transport chain, and that is what results in the production of ATP.
线粒体在产生 ATP 时，电子沿着电子传输链流动，这就是 ATP 产生的原因。
If it gets shuttled through the uncoupling protein, it results in heat production.
如果它穿过解偶联蛋白，就会产生热量。
And when electrons flow out of that system, when they leak out of that system, it creates reactive oxygen species, which again, are very harmful to both mitochondria and cells.
当电子流出该系统时，当它们从该系统泄漏时，它会产生活性氧，这对线粒体和细胞都非常有害。
So if you have dysfunctional mitochondria That don't seem to be able to contain the electrons appropriately.
因此，如果你的线粒体功能失调，它似乎无法适当地容纳电子。
Electrons are leaking out.
电子正在泄漏。
So these would be mitochondria that are producing more reactive oxygen species than they should.
因此，这些线粒体会产生比应有的更多的活性氧。
Does that ever happen in biology?
生物学中曾经发生过这种情况吗？
100%.
100%。
We've got decades of evidence that aging, neurodegeneration, even obesity, Type 2 diabetes, and a wide range of neuropsychiatric disorders are associated with that process, that increased levels of reactive oxygen species, often referred to as oxidative stress.
数十年的证据表明，衰老、神经退行性疾病、甚至肥胖、2 型糖尿病和各种神经精神疾病都与这一过程有关，即活性氧水平升高（通常称为氧化应激）。
So we've got decades of evidence strongly supporting that.
因此，我们有数十年的证据强烈支持这一点。
Can methylene blue play a role in that?
亚甲基蓝可以发挥作用吗？
Absolutely, because methylene blue can come in and take some of these wayward electrons and prevent them from creating reactive oxygen species, which might help calm things down.
绝对可以，因为亚甲基蓝可以吸收一些任性的电子，并阻止它们产生活性氧，这可能有助于让事情平静下来。
One of the challenges with methylene blue, as we discussed before, you can have too little and too much.
正如我们之前讨论的，亚甲基蓝的挑战之一是，亚甲基蓝的用量可能太少或太多。
Same with methylene blue.
与亚甲蓝相同。
You can have too little and too much.
你可以拥有太少或太多。
You don't want to accept too many electrons.
你不想接受太多的电子。
These electrons need to be flowing to the places they should be flowing.
这些电子需要流向它们应该流向的地方。
As opposed to oxidative stress, the polar opposite of that is called reductive stress, and that too has been found in people with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder and some other disorders.
与氧化应激相反，其截然相反的称为还原应激，在精神分裂症、双相情感障碍和其他一些疾病患者中也发现了这种情况。
So it's really about dysregulated kind of balance between oxidative and reductive stress.
所以这实际上与氧化应激和还原应激之间的平衡失调有关。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Ah.
啊。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
And methylene blue, if you take it in overdose, could become a reductive stressor.
而亚甲基蓝，如果服用过量，可能会成为一种还原性应激源。
So you don't want too much.
所以你不要想要太多。
So we do have pilot trials, again, small, not super well done pilot trials in a wide range of neuropsychiatric disorders, depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, Alzheimer's disease, others, many of them suggesting a benefit.
因此，我们确实在各种神经精神疾病、抑郁症、双相情感障碍、精神分裂症、阿尔茨海默氏病等方面进行了试点试验，规模较小，但做得不是很好，其中许多都表明有好处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you know what the dosage range-
你知道剂量范围是多少吗？
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
I don't
我不
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is?
是？
Yeah.
是的。
I don't either.
我也不。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
I don't know off the top of my head.
我根本不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, because methylene blue, as I understand, has some MAO activity.
是的，因为据我了解，亚甲基蓝具有一定的 MAO 活性。
It can adjust some of the enzymes that in turn adjusts levels of serotonin, which is why I haven't taken it.
它可以调节一些酶，从而调节血清素的水平，这就是我没有服用它的原因。
I've just been cautious about it.
我只是对此持谨慎态度。
I don't really want to boost my serotonin.
我真的不想提高我的血清素。
There's this recent study out of a lab at Stanford showing that the rewarding properties of various things, as we know, increase dopamine in anticipation of a reward.
斯坦福大学实验室最近的一项研究表明，正如我们所知，各种事物的奖励特性会增加期待奖励的多巴胺。
But also important, it seems, these are mouse studies, but serotonin drops as dopamine goes up, and that drop in serotonin is at least as important as the increase in dopamine for the reinforcing properties of certain behaviors and substances.
但同样重要的是，这些似乎都是小鼠研究，但随着多巴胺的增加，血清素会下降，而对于某些行为和物质的强化特性来说，血清素的下降至少与多巴胺的增加一样重要。
And I'm very reluctant to tamper with anything that would raise serotonin, because in these studies, or in these experiments, I should say, increasing serotonin offsets some of the rewarding aspects of otherwise rewarding things.
我非常不愿意篡改任何会提高血清素的东西，因为在这些研究中，或者在这些实验中，我应该说，增加血清素抵消了其他奖励性事物的一些奖励性方面。
So I want things that are rewarding to feel rewarding.
所以我希望那些有价值的事情让我感到有价值。
And so this difference between dopamine and serotonin seems pretty vital.
因此，多巴胺和血清素之间的差异似乎非常重要。
That's not to say I'm terrified of anything that increases serotonin, but to do it pharmacologically just seems a little sketchy, given I don't have a clinical need, at least not that I'm aware of.
这并不是说我害怕任何增加血清素的东西，但考虑到我没有临床需求，至少我不知道，从药理学上来说，这样做似乎有点粗略。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Well, and that's actually one of the warnings with methylene blue is that if taken in too high of a dose, you can actually get serotonin syndrome.
嗯，这实际上是亚甲基蓝的警告之一，如果服用剂量过高，您实际上可能会患上血清素综合症。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could you explain what serotonin syndrome is?
您能解释一下什么是血清素综合症吗？
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
So serotonin syndrome is just really excessive deluge of serotonin in the system.
因此，血清素综合症实际上是体内血清素过多。
More often than not, it's completely unrecognized.
通常情况下，它完全未被识别。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
It gets mistaken for psychiatric symptoms.
它被误认为是精神症状。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
So people can have anxiety, they can have panic.
所以人们可能会感到焦虑，他们可能会感到恐慌。
In extreme cases, you can get nausea, you can get fevers.
在极端情况下，您可能会感到恶心，可能会发烧。
In extreme cases, it can be fatal.
在极端情况下，这可能是致命的。
So it's a serious thing, but more often than not, it gets dismissed because serotonin syndrome is most commonly experienced by people taking SSRIs, and by definition, they are psychiatric patients, or they have a mental health condition.
因此，这是一件严重的事情，但通常会被忽视，因为服用 SSRI 的人最常经历血清素综合症，而根据定义，他们是精神病患者，或者患有心理健康问题。
And so when they come in and say, "I'm feeling nauseous, I feel anxious, I feel jittery, I don't feel right," they get written off more often than not.
因此，当他们进来说，“我感到恶心，我感到焦虑，我感到紧张，我感觉不对劲”时，他们往往会被忽视。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or given more medication, perhaps.
或者也许给予更多药物。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Let's increase your dose.
让我们增加你的剂量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, goodness.
哦，天哪。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Let's increase your dose or whatever.
让我们增加你的剂量或其他什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, no.
哦，不。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
So it's actually really tragic.
所以这实际上是非常悲剧的。
One woman actually reached out to me who, after learning about my work, reading my book, she talked to her psychiatrist, tapered off all her meds, and it became clear that she probably had serotonin syndrome for a long time-
一位女士实际上联系了我，她在了解了我的工作、读了我的书后，与她的精神科医生交谈，逐渐减少了所有药物的用量，很明显，她可能患有血清素综合症很长一段时间了——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow
哇
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
...
...
to both her and her psychiatrist.
对她和她的精神科医生来说。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So the meds were causing the problem.
所以药物导致了这个问题。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
And the meds were causing the problem, and nobody really recognized it.
药物导致了问题，但没有人真正认识到它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Goodness gracious.
善良仁慈。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Anyway, methylene blue can cause serotonin syndrome, so I think if people want to consider using it, I would, number one, make sure you get a very reputable source of it.
不管怎样，亚甲蓝会引起血清素综合症，所以我认为如果人们想考虑使用它，我首先要确保你得到一个非常有信誉的来源。
Make sure you're consuming it in a way that makes sense.
确保你以一种有意义的方式消费它。
It can stain your teeth blue and all sorts of stuff.
它会把你的牙齿染成蓝色和各种各样的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It makes your urine blue, your tongue blue.
它使你的尿液呈蓝色，你的舌头呈蓝色。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
People will do IV infusions of methylene blue.
人们会静脉注射亚甲蓝。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Whoa.
哇哦。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
So yeah, no, I've seen people kind of hooked up to IVs with a bag of methylene blue.
所以，是的，不，我见过有人用一袋亚甲蓝连接静脉注射。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do they turn blue?
它们会变成蓝色吗？
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
And I hope not.
我希望不会。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Smurf.
蓝精灵。
Smurfy.
蓝精灵。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
But it is a medically approved treatment.
但这是医学上批准的治疗方法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
And I think it can be done in safe ways.
我认为这可以通过安全的方式完成。
Again, it's off patent.
再说一遍，它已经过专利了。
Nobody's going to stand to make any money off of doing large, well-designed trials of methylene blue.
没有人能够通过大规模、精心设计的亚甲蓝试验来赚钱。
But I'm really interested in it as it has these properties.
但我真的对它很感兴趣，因为它具有这些特性。
In addition to just being this electron acceptor and donor, there's some evidence that it may improve mitochondrial biogenesis, that it has anti-inflammatory effects, and that it can do other things that may be beneficial.
除了作为电子受体和供体之外，有一些证据表明它可以改善线粒体生物合成，具有抗炎作用，并且可以做其他可能有益的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Very interesting, in fact.
事实上，非常有趣。
Before moving on to some more clinical questions, we've been going deep into the science and some public health thoughts and reflections and ideas.
在讨论更多临床问题之前，我们已经深入研究了科学和一些公共卫生思想、反思和想法。
There's a supplement called urolithin A that people seem really excited about for improving mitochondrial function.
有一种名为尿石素 A 的补充剂，人们似乎对它能改善线粒体功能感到非常兴奋。
I'm not super familiar with the literature, but coenzyme Q12, urolithin A, we're starting to hear more about these sorts of things sold over the counter.
我对文献不是很熟悉，但辅酶 Q12、尿石素 A，我们开始听到更多关于柜台出售的这类东西的信息。
Do you have any thoughts on those?
您对此有什么想法吗？
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
There's a company, Timeline, that puts out this product, and to their credit, they have actually done some pretty well-designed, robust, randomized controlled trials of urolithin A.
有一家名为 Timeline 的公司推出了这种产品，值得赞扬的是，他们实际上已经对尿石素 A 进行了一些设计良好、稳健的随机对照试验。
They've primarily focused on muscle health and aging, and so they actually have reasonably good data published in reasonably good journals, documenting that urolithin A, when given to elderly people, people over 55, 65, that it can improve muscle mass and performance within, I think, eight weeks.
他们主要关注肌肉健康和衰老，因此他们实际上在相当不错的期刊上发表了相当不错的数据，记录了尿石素 A，当给予老年人、55 岁、65 岁以上的人时，我认为它可以在八周内改善肌肉质量和表现。
And that has overarching metabolic benefits that have, in terms of biomarkers, that have been associated with slowing of the aging process.
就生物标志物而言，这具有总体代谢益处，与减缓衰老过程有关。
So urolithin A, I think, is definitely a supplement among all of the supplements that should be considered if people are looking for something to take.
因此，我认为，如果人们正在寻找某种补充剂，尿石素 A 绝对是所有补充剂中应该考虑的补充剂。
I'm going to repeat myself.
我要重复一遍。
Before you take urolithin A, I've said this to the chief scientific officer of the company when I was talking with him about this, and I said, "But you know that diet and exercise are much more." He said, "Yeah, yeah, yeah.
在你服用尿石素A之前，我和公司的首席科学官谈论这件事时，我就跟他说过这句话，我说，“但是你知道，饮食和运动的意义远不止于此。”他说：“是啊，是啊，是啊。
Of course."
当然。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Harder to sell.
更难卖了。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
People have to do-
人们必须做——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
...
...
the diet and exercise and everything else.
饮食和运动以及其他一切。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
But then this could give them an advantage, and I don't deny that at all.
但这可能会给他们带来优势，我一点也不否认这一点。
I think it may very well give people an advantage.
我认为这很可能会给人们带来优势。
And again, the way that I think about it, it's not that diet and exercise are going to cure everybody, because they won't cure everybody.
再说一遍，我的想法是，节食和锻炼并不是能治愈所有人，因为它们无法治愈所有人。
Some people are really ill, and the way that I think about that is that their mitochondria, their metabolic processes are really disrupted.
有些人真的病了，我的想法是他们的线粒体、他们的代谢过程确实被破坏了。
They are severely dysregulated.
他们严重失调。
And that a quote unquote "healthy diet" and good exercise and good sleep and good relationships are a phenomenal prevention strategy.
引用不引用的“健康饮食”、良好的锻炼、良好的睡眠和良好的人际关系是一种非凡的预防策略。
For some people, they can be a phenomenal treatment strategy.
对于某些人来说，它们可能是一种非凡的治疗策略。
But I think on average, that applies to people with mild to moderate mental health or metabolic health conditions.
但我认为平均而言，这适用于患有轻度至中度心理健康或代谢健康状况的人。
That once people get into the severe category, severe heart failure, severe mental health condition like schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, crippling depression, my sense is just a clean diet and good sleep and good exercise is not going to be sufficient.
一旦人们进入严重的类别，严重的心力衰竭，严重的精神健康状况，如精神分裂症、双相情感障碍、严重的抑郁症，我的感觉只是干净的饮食、良好的睡眠和良好的锻炼是不够的。
And then we do need to start thinking about can we use this supplement or this methylene blue infusion or even neurostimulation, which can stimulate mitochondria and stimulate neuroplasticity.
然后我们确实需要开始考虑我们是否可以使用这种补充剂或这种亚甲基蓝输液甚至神经刺激，它可以刺激线粒体并刺激神经可塑性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Things like transcranial magnetic stimulation?
比如经颅磁刺激？
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is done noninvasively, right?
这是非侵入性完成的，对吧？
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
It is noninvasive, and so can we use those types of strategies to try to improve someone's mental health?
它是非侵入性的，那么我们可以使用这些类型的策略来尝试改善某人的心理健康吗？
And we've got plenty of evidence that, especially with TMS, that it can be very helpful for some people, but again, is not a panacea.
我们有大量证据表明，尤其是经颅磁刺激，它对某些人来说非常有帮助，但同样，它也不是万能药。
None of these things are a panacea.
这些都不是灵丹妙药。
And although I just said that, none of these things are a panacea.
虽然我刚刚说过，但这些都不是万能的。
One of the biggest criticisms I get is, "Dr. Palmer, you have not given me the recipe to cure my crippling X disorder." And it's like, well, I'm trying to teach you the strategies and the science so that you can put together your own treatment plan.
我收到的最大的批评之一是，“帕尔默博士，你没有给我治疗我严重的 X 病的方法。”就像，好吧，我正在努力教你策略和科学，以便你可以制定自己的治疗计划。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
I am not here to sell any one thing as this is the panacea to cure all mental illness.
我来这里不是为了推销任何东西，因为这是治愈所有精神疾病的灵丹妙药。
The ketogenic diet can be life-changing, life-saving.
生酮饮食可以改变生活、拯救生命。
It can be nothing short of miraculous for some people, but it is not a panacea.
对于某些人来说，这简直就是奇迹，但它并不是灵丹妙药。
I've seen people do ketogenic diets and not get cured, not get remission.
我见过人们进行生酮饮食但没有得到治愈，也没有得到缓解。
And so I'm always looking for what else.
所以我一直在寻找其他的东西。
What else can we do?
我们还能做什么？
How else can we use this model to further enhance mitochondrial function, metabolic health?
我们还能如何利用这个模型来进一步增强线粒体功能和代谢健康？
I think the reason I'm getting traction is because when you come back to it, we just keep coming back to these pillars of common sense.
我认为我之所以受到关注是因为当你回头看时，我们只是不断回到这些常识的支柱。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
For the most part, yeah.
在大多数情况下，是的。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Like diet might actually make a difference to your brain health.
就像饮食实际上可能会对您的大脑健康产生影响一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't think it's just Americans.
我不认为这只是美国人。
I think our species needs to run up against the guardrails at the edge of the cliff six times, and sadly see a good number of people go over to their demise before we go, "Wait a second.
我认为我们这个物种需要六次撞上悬崖边缘的护栏，然后悲伤地看到很多人在我们走之前走向灭亡，“等一下。
We need to think about how fast we're taking these turns.
我们需要考虑我们的转变速度有多快。
We need to pull back." There's something weird about our species that we love to develop technology and then find the destructive aspects of those technologies, then pull back.
我们需要撤退。”我们这个物种有一个奇怪的地方，那就是我们喜欢开发技术，然后发现这些技术的破坏性方面，然后撤回。
And a lot of our, it's like two steps forward, one step back type evolution.
我们的很多，就像前进两步、后退一步的进化。
It seems inherent to Homo sapiens.
这似乎是智人固有的。
Forgive me for getting so macroscopic here, but when you look through-- There's a wonderful book, "The Prince of Medicine." It's a history of medicine, Galen, and it starts there and all the way forward, and you read, what is it?
请原谅我在这里说得太宏观，但是当你仔细看时——有一本很棒的书，《医学王子》。这是一部医学史，盖伦，它从那里开始一直向前，你读到，它是什么？
"The Emperor of All Maladies," about cancer.
《万病之王》，关于癌症。
And you just realize we're stumbling forward and making miraculous progress, and at the same time, we are seemingly deliberately overlooking a lot of the stuff that's just obvious.
你会意识到我们正在跌跌撞撞地前进并取得奇迹般的进步，但与此同时，我们似乎故意忽视了许多显而易见的事情。
As we exit this conversation about supplements, the old advice that if you just eat a balanced diet, you're good, doesn't work anymore.
当我们结束关于补充剂的讨论时，“只要饮食均衡就很好”的旧建议不再有效。
I noticed that because, quote-unquote, "balanced diet," first of all, no one can agree on that.
我注意到这一点，因为，首先，没有人能就“均衡饮食”达成一致。
And people get caught up in the vegetarian versus carnivore debates, or vegan versus carnivore, which are really at the extremes.
人们陷入了素食与肉食动物的争论，或者素食主义者与肉食动物的争论，这确实是极端的。
So we've lost our bearings.
所以我们迷失了方向。
True North is so clear what True North is.
真北非常清楚什么是真北。
It's mostly non-processed, minimally processed foods, getting adequate quality protein.
它主要是未加工、最低限度加工的食品，获得足够的优质蛋白质。
You could do that vegetarian, you could do that with some animal-based products if you choose.
你可以做素食，如果你选择的话，你可以用一些动物性产品来做。
It's doing that for 90% or 80% of one's nutrition.
这样做可以获取一个人 90% 或 80% 的营养。
It's exercise.
这是锻炼。
We know what forms.
我们知道什么形式。
All the information's there, as you're pointing out, but somehow we're just going to have to keep putting it back in our faces.
正如您所指出的，所有信息都在那里，但不知何故，我们必须不断地将其放回我们的面前。
Or see enough unfortunate stuff that we go, "Wait a second, it's time for a course correction." But hey, that's what we're trying to do here, right?
或者看到足够多的不幸的事情，我们就会说：“等一下，是时候修正方向了。”但是，嘿，这就是我们想要做的，对吧？
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we have colleagues to do it as well.
我们也有同事来做这件事。
And I'll just throw in, as long as we're editorializing a lot today, I think in the last five years, the discourse around public health from the mental health side, from the cardiology side, from the cancer side, from the long-- has really transformed in no small part, thanks to social media and podcasts.
我想说的是，只要我们今天发表大量社论，我认为在过去五年中，由于社交媒体和播客，从心理健康方面、从心脏病学方面、从癌症方面、从长期来看，围绕公共卫生的讨论确实发生了很大的变化。
So things are evolving.
所以事情正在发展。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Thank you, Dr. Huber.
谢谢你，胡贝尔博士。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, well.
哦，好吧。
And thank you.
谢谢你。
Vitamin deficiencies and mental health.
维生素缺乏和心理健康。
It almost sounds like we're headed deeper into supplements, and we might touch on that, but a few years ago, I went to a McKnight meeting and somebody presented some proteomics data where they were sequencing spinal fluid from depressed patients and finding that certain depressed patients had deficiencies in certain vitamins that could easily be replaced through supplementation.
听起来我们似乎正在深入研究补充剂，我们可能会触及这一点，但几年前，我参加了一次麦克奈特会议，有人展示了一些蛋白质组学数据，他们对抑郁症患者的脊髓液进行了测序，发现某些抑郁症患者缺乏某些维生素，而这些维生素可以通过补充剂轻松补充。
And lo and behold, their depressions, in these particular patients, were being cured, literally reversed, going into remission by virtue of taking the appropriate vitamins.
你瞧，这些特殊患者的抑郁症通过服用适当的维生素而得到治愈，甚至完全逆转，进入缓解状态。
But the issue was they had to use spinal taps, so it was not in order to know what these patients needed.
但问题是他们必须使用脊椎穿刺，所以这并不是为了了解这些患者需要什么。
But it was really striking.
但这确实令人震惊。
I thought, goodness, we're talking about B vitamins and depression.
我想，天哪，我们正在谈论 B 族维生素和抑郁症。
So could you tell us about B12 and other B vitamins, and methylation and folate?
您能给我们介绍一下 B12 和其他 B 族维生素，以及甲基化和叶酸吗？
There's a little cluster of topics here that I think is super interesting and that people really should know about vis-à-vis depression and other CNS challenges.
我认为这里有一些非常有趣的主题，人们确实应该了解抑郁症和其他中枢神经系统挑战。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Before I get into the complex part of the story, let me just start with basics.
在进入故事的复杂部分之前，让我先从基础知识开始。
And this relates to nutrition, that a lot of these basic vitamins and minerals, like vitamin B12, folate, and iron-- I'll just stop there.
这与营养有关，很多基本维生素和矿物质，如维生素 B12、叶酸和铁，我就到此为止。
B12, folate, and iron, these are all essential to mitochondrial function.
B12、叶酸和铁，这些都是线粒体功能所必需的。
They play a role in numerous enzymes and other cellular reactions outside of mitochondria, but they are all central to mitochondrial function.
它们在线粒体以外的许多酶和其他细胞反应中发挥作用，但它们都是线粒体功能的核心。
And so if you are deficient in these vitamins, your mitochondria will not function properly.
因此，如果您缺乏这些维生素，您的线粒体将无法正常运作。
So it doesn't prove the mitochondrial theory of neuropsychiatric disorders, but it's consistent with the mitochondrial theory.
所以它并不能证明神经精神疾病的线粒体理论，但它与线粒体理论是一致的。
And the reality is a lot of Americans are-- A lot of different populations within America, and then certainly in other countries, can be highly deficient in some of these.
现实情况是，很多美国人——美国境内的许多不同人群，当然还有其他国家的许多不同人群，可能在其中一些方面严重缺乏。
So iron, there's a study in JAMA just last year, 40% of females aged 12 to 21 in the United States are iron deficient.
那么铁，去年JAMA上有一项研究，美国12岁到21岁的女性中有40%缺铁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
It really depends on the definition of iron deficient, but their overarching conclusion, based on what they thought was a reasonable definition that the journal JAMA went ahead and published, was 40% of girls and young women 12-- So this is menstruation, obviously.
这实际上取决于缺铁的定义，但他们的总体结论是，基于他们认为 JAMA 杂志继续发表的合理定义，40% 的女孩和年轻女性 12——所以这显然是月经。
It's menstruation.
是来月经了
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're losing iron.
他们正在失去铁。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
They are losing blood.
他们正在失血。
They're losing blood, and they are not consuming enough iron, or there's something wrong with the way they're processing iron.
他们正在失血，并且没有消耗足够的铁，或者他们处理铁的方式有问题。
So let me just stick with that.
所以让我坚持下去。
And what does that have to do with neuropsychiatric disorders?
这与神经精神疾病有什么关系？
Well, boys and girls pre-puberty have the same rates of mental illness.
嗯，青春期前的男孩和女孩患精神疾病的几率是相同的。
If anything, boys are maybe a little more because they're more likely to have autism, and they're more likely to be diagnosed with ADHD.
如果有的话，男孩可能会更多一些，因为他们更有可能患有自闭症，而且他们更有可能被诊断为多动症。
But for the most part, we'll say depression and anxiety, exact same rates.
但在大多数情况下，我们会说抑郁和焦虑，发病率完全相同。
Puberty hits, and girls just skyrocket.
青春期来了，女孩们的身材猛增。
The rates of mental illness skyrocket in girls.
女孩的精神疾病发病率急剧上升。
Now, are there psychological and social causes of that?
那么，这有心理和社会原因吗？
Yes, we can talk about you're becoming an attractive sexual mate, and maybe people are being mean to you, or people are making you uncomfortable, or you are becoming a victim of sexual trauma.
是的，我们可以谈论您正在成为一个有吸引力的性伴侣，也许人们对您很刻薄，或者人们让您感到不舒服，或者您正在成为性创伤的受害者。
Do those things happen?
这些事情会发生吗？
Of course, those things are happening.
当然，这些事情正在发生。
Could that contribute to depression and anxiety?
这会导致抑郁和焦虑吗？
Of course, that could contribute to depression and anxiety.
当然，这可能会导致抑郁和焦虑。
Again, it's not either/or.
再说一遍，这不是非此即彼的问题。
So yes, let's stay with the psychological and social causes, but let's also go into the biological causes.
所以，是的，让我们继续讨论心理和社会原因，但我们也来探讨一下生物学原因。
If these girls and women are now iron deficient, that affects their brain function.
如果这些女孩和妇女现在缺铁，就会影响她们的大脑功能。
It affects their whole body health.
它影响他们的整个身体健康。
Most people don't think of that as a metabolic problem, but I do.
大多数人不认为这是代谢问题，但我认为。
These girls and women can be thin.
这些女孩和女人可能很瘦。
They can be absolutely beautiful and thin and iron deficient, and that means they've got a metabolic mitochondrial problem that could be affecting their brain, and that could be playing a role in their depression, anxiety, their eating disorder, or whatever else they've got.
他们可能非常漂亮、瘦弱、缺铁，这意味着他们有代谢线粒体问题，这可能会影响他们的大脑，这可能会导致他们的抑郁、焦虑、饮食失调或其他任何症状。
Vitamin B12, folate, we know that low levels of those vitamins are associated with all sorts of neuropsychiatric disorders.
维生素 B12、叶酸，我们知道这些维生素水平低与各种神经精神疾病有关。
B12 deficiency, for example, is very common among vegetarians and vegans.
例如，维生素 B12 缺乏症在素食者和严格素食者中非常常见。
In India, for example, where most people are vegetarian or vegan, 50%, 5-0 percent of their population is B12 deficient.
例如，在印度，大多数人都是素食主义者，50%、5-0% 的人口缺乏维生素 B12。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Whoa.
哇哦。
What are some food sources of B12?
B12 的食物来源有哪些？
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Animal source.
动物来源。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Red meat, basically.
基本上是红肉。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Animal source foods.
动物源食品。
Again, eggs, red meat, other types of meat.
再次是鸡蛋、红肉和其他类型的肉类。
Yep, you need animal source foods for the most part.
是的，您大部分需要动物源食品。
Or if you're going to be a vegan or vegetarian, please take appropriate supplementation.
或者，如果您打算成为素食主义者或素食主义者，请服用适当的补充剂。
You can get this in a vitamin, but please make sure you're doing it correctly and maybe get your levels measured every now and then, at least once a year at your annual physical.
您可以从维生素中获取这种物质，但请确保您的做法正确，并且可能时不时地测量一下您的水平，至少每年在年度体检时测量一次。
Make sure that your doctor knows, "I'm vegan.
确保你的医生知道：“我是素食主义者。
Please do a full assessment of vitamin and nutrient levels for me, because I am at a high risk." So B12 is impacted by other medications, B12 absorption.
请对我的维生素和营养水平进行全面评估，因为我的风险很高。”因此，B12 会受到其他药物、B12 吸收的影响。
And interestingly, oral contraceptives can reduce absorption of or impair absorption of vitamin B12.
有趣的是，口服避孕药可以减少或损害维生素 B12 的吸收。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Metformin can impair absorption of vitamin B12.
二甲双胍会损害维生素 B12 的吸收。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
So just picture a woman who's overweight, who's following a vegetarian or vegan diet, who's also on metformin for her diabetes, who's also on birth control just because.
因此，想象一下一位超重的女性，她遵循素食或纯素饮食，她还因糖尿病而服用二甲双胍，她也仅仅因为这种原因而接受节育。
She's at very high risk of being B12 deficient.
她缺乏 B12 的风险非常高。
And what does B12 deficiency do in terms of neuropsychiatric disorders?
维生素 B12 缺乏症对神经精神疾病有何影响？
Everything.
一切。
It has been associated with higher rates of depression, anxiety, psychosis, bipolar symptoms, but people can be hallucinating and delusional from B12 deficiency.
它与抑郁、焦虑、精神病、躁郁症症状的发生率较高有关，但人们可能会因维生素 B12 缺乏而产生幻觉和妄想。
And the challenge with B12 deficiency is that the neurological damage can become permanent.
缺乏 B12 所带来的挑战是神经损伤可能会变成永久性的。
So if this is not recognized and identified early enough, people can be permanently injured.
因此，如果不及早认识到这一点，人们可能会受到永久性伤害。
So that's the simple story.
这就是简单的故事。
Some people just aren't consuming enough, or they're taking metformin, or they're taking oral contraceptives or whatever.
有些人只是摄入不足，或者他们正在服用二甲双胍，或者他们正在服用口服避孕药或其他什么。
They're menstruating, and they haven't really figured out an appropriate diet to compensate for the loss of blood.
她们正在经期，但还没有真正找到合适的饮食来弥补失血。
So all of those things can interfere with vitamin absorption or whatever and can result in neuropsychiatric symptoms.
因此，所有这些因素都会干扰维生素吸收或其他什么，并可能导致神经精神症状。
Unfortunately, this story gets a lot more complicated.
不幸的是，这个故事变得更加复杂。
So we've long known that there's an autoimmune form of vitamin B12 deficiency called pernicious anemia, in which antibodies to something called intrinsic factor prevent vitamin B12 from being absorbed in the digestive tract.
因此，我们很早就知道存在一种称为恶性贫血的自身免疫性维生素 B12 缺乏症，其中一种称为内因子的抗体会阻止维生素 B12 在消化道中被吸收。
So you could be eating all the meat in the world, you can't absorb it, and you can become B12 deficient.
因此，您可能会吃掉世界上所有的肉，但您无法吸收它，并且您可能会缺乏 B12。
That autoimmune disorder increases with age.
这种自身免疫性疾病随着年龄的增长而加剧。
So you could have been living a happy, healthy life, and then at age 65, you develop pernicious anemia.
所以你本来可以过上幸福、健康的生活，但到了 65 岁时，你却患上了恶性贫血。
You can no longer absorb B12.
您无法再吸收 B12。
And this is actually one of the treatable forms of dementia that we know of.
这实际上是我们所知的可治疗的痴呆症之一。
The cardinal symptoms look like dementia.
主要症状看起来像痴呆症。
And the only way to help these people is if some astute healthcare clinician measures a B12 level, identifies and recognizes the problem, and then does further testing for pernicious anemia, this autoimmune form of B12 deficiency, and then you correct it.
帮助这些人的唯一方法是，一些精明的医疗保健临床医生测量 B12 水平，识别并认识到问题，然后进一步检测恶性贫血（这种自身免疫性 B12 缺乏症），然后纠正它。
And the treatment is vitamin B12 injections.
治疗方法是注射维生素B12。
Taking a pill won't work because you can't absorb it, so you've just got to inject it People with vitamin B12.
吃药不起作用，因为你无法吸收它，所以你只能注射维生素 B12。
And it can restore everything.
而且它可以恢复一切。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For most people, will a B12 oral supplement work?
对于大多数人来说，口服 B12 补充剂有效吗？
Like a methyl B12 capsule?
就像甲基 B12 胶囊一样？
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
As long as they don't have this autoimmune form, yes.
只要他们没有这种自身免疫形式，就可以。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
It'll be fine.
会没事的。
And again, if you're eating lots of meat, you may not need any supplement at all.
再说一次，如果你吃很多肉，你可能根本不需要任何补充。
So over the last year, there have been a couple of publications that have just come out that have now recognized a brand-new form of autoimmune B12 deficiency, and it targets a protein called CD320-
去年，有几篇出版物刚刚发表，它们现在已经认识到一种全新形式的自身免疫性 B12 缺乏症，它的目标是一种名为 CD320 的蛋白质——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
...
...
which transports vitamin B12 across the blood-brain barrier.
它负责运输维生素 B12 穿过血脑屏障。
The researchers essentially identified this in people who were having pretty severe neuropsychiatric symptoms, so symptoms of either neurological disorders or other kinds of disorders, but mostly focusing on neurology, because it's neurologists who have been doing all this work.
研究人员基本上在患有相当严重的神经精神症状的人中发现了这一点，即神经系统疾病或其他类型疾病的症状，但主要集中在神经病学上，因为所有这些工作都是神经科医生做的。
When they first identified this antibody, they took blood from these people's veins, just like you would if you were going into a doctor for a blood draw.
当他们第一次识别出这种抗体时，他们从这些人的静脉中抽取血液，就像你去看医生抽血一样。
The B12 levels are normal.
B12 水平正常。
Everything's normal in the periphery, because the person may be consuming enough B12, and it may be getting absorbed fine.
外围一切正常，因为该人可能摄入了足够的 B12，并且吸收良好。
So they're not anemic.
所以他们并不贫血。
They show no signs of B12 deficiency.
他们没有表现出维生素 B12 缺乏的迹象。
But when the researchers tested their cerebrospinal fluid, they had almost no B12 in their central nervous system.
但当研究人员测试他们的脑脊液时，他们的中枢神经系统中几乎没有维生素B12。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So that requires a spinal tap, right?
所以这需要脊椎穿刺，对吗？
This is not a-
这不是一个——
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
In order to diagnose it, it required a spinal tap.
为了诊断它，需要进行脊椎穿刺。
And they ended up treating some of these people with immunosuppressive agents to reduce this autoimmune condition and high-dose vitamin B12.
他们最终使用免疫抑制剂和高剂量维生素 B12 治疗其中一些人，以减轻这种自身免疫性疾病。
And some of the people had reversal of symptoms, meaning their neuropsychiatric symptoms went away.
有些人的症状出现了逆转，这意味着他们的神经精神症状消失了。
The research is still in preliminary stages, but the researchers have looked at how common is this, because at first glance, this sounds like, well, that's just a really rare condition that can't be relevant to human health.
这项研究仍处于初步阶段，但研究人员已经研究了这种情况的普遍性，因为乍一看，这听起来像是一种非常罕见的情况，与人类健康无关。
They sampled just a general healthy control, and about 6% of those people had this antibody.
他们仅对一般健康对照进行了采样，其中大约 6% 的人具有这种抗体。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
That's really high.
那真的很高。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
They then sampled people with neuropsychiatric lupus.
然后他们对患有神经精神狼疮的人进行了采样。
So these are people who have an autoimmune disorder already, lupus, and they have neuropsychiatric symptoms.
这些人已经患有自身免疫性疾病，狼疮，并且有神经精神症状。
20% of them had this antibody.
其中20%的人有这种抗体。
And then they just recently-- This is unpublished data, but they have looked at people who have a demyelinating condition of unknown etiology, and about 50% of them had this anti, 50%.
然后他们最近——这是未发表的数据，但他们研究了患有不明原因脱髓鞘疾病的人，其中大约 50% 有这种抗，50%。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So this is like an MS-like condition.
所以这就像 MS 一样的情况。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Had this antibody.
有这种抗体。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And what's the solution?
解决办法是什么？
B12?
B12？
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
The reason this is of interest to me, and we're hoping to do some research on this in patients with psychiatric disorders, is because there is a treatment.
我之所以对此感兴趣，并且我们希望对精神疾病患者进行一些研究，是因为有一种治疗方法。
Immunosuppressive kind of treatments to either reduce this autoimmune condition-
免疫抑制治疗可以减轻这种自身免疫性疾病-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
...
...
and/or high-dose vitamin B12 injections.
和/或大剂量维生素 B12 注射液。
So you want to flood their system with vitamin B12 so that some of it can get across the blood-brain barrier.
因此，您需要向他们的系统注入大量维生素 B12，以便其中一些能够穿过血脑屏障。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And again, oral B12 won't work in this case, right?
再说一次，口服 B12 在这种情况下不起作用，对吗？
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Oral B12 may very well work in that case.
在这种情况下，口服 B12 可能非常有效。
But in these situations, what we know is that these people's brains are being damaged from severe B12 deficiency.
但在这些情况下，我们知道这些人的大脑因严重缺乏 B12 而受损。
So I would probably just go for the definitive massive injection and try to rescue those brain cells.
所以我可能会进行最终的大量注射并尝试拯救那些脑细胞。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is very interesting.
这很有趣。
I think people should get their B12 levels measured.
我认为人们应该测量他们的 B12 水平。
A standard blood test, right?
标准的血液检查，对吗？
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
It is.
是的。
Unfortunately for this new autoimmune central B12 deficiency, they're working on a commercial test, but you can't get this blood test right now.
不幸的是，对于这种新的自身免疫性中枢 B12 缺乏症，他们正在开展商业测试，但您现在无法进行血液测试。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Perhaps to come
或许未来
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
...
...
stay tuned.
敬请期待。
But I guess the point of it is this, that I think for the majority of people, 60 to 80% of people who are suffering from neuropsychiatric disorders, I actually think using interventions that are easily available today will help them heal and recover.
但我想重点是，我认为对于大多数人，60% 到 80% 患有神经精神疾病的人来说，我实际上认为使用当今容易获得的干预措施将帮助他们治愈和康复。
I really believe that.
我真的相信这一点。
I stand nothing.
我什么也忍受不了。
I don't get any money from lifestyle interventions.
我没有从生活方式干预中得到任何钱。
I don't get a commission for everybody who does a ketogenic diet.
我不会向每个进行生酮饮食的人收取佣金。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In theory, you'd have fewer patients to treat.
理论上，需要治疗的病人会更少。
In theory, you lose money because you have fewer patients to treat.
从理论上讲，您会因为需要治疗的患者减少而赔钱。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
I will lose money-
我会赔钱的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
...
...
by getting people better, and then they move on and don't need me anymore.
让人们变得更好，然后他们就会继续前进，不再需要我了。
I honestly believe that, but I also believe there will be 20%, maybe up to 40%, who have severe disorders for whom those strategies just won't work.
老实说，我相信这一点，但我也相信，会有 20%，甚至高达 40% 的人患有严重疾病，而这些策略对他们不起作用。
And so I'm really interested in, well, what else could it be?
所以我真的很感兴趣，那么，它还能是什么？
And this is just one of many examples of what else it could be.
这只是它可能的许多例子之一。
They could have an autoimmune form of central B12 deficiency.
他们可能患有中枢维生素 B12 缺乏症的自身免疫性形式。
And why does that matter?
为什么这很重要？
Because we can test for that.
因为我们可以对此进行测试。
And if they have that, we can treat it.
如果他们有这种情况，我们就可以治疗。
There's a clear, unequivocal treatment.
有一个明确、明确的治疗方法。
And at the end of the day, I think one of the biggest themes of my work ...
归根结底，我认为我工作的最大主题之一......
is that right now in the mental health field, we assign these diagnostic labels to people, and for many of them, they become life sentences.
现在在心理健康领域，我们给人们贴上这些诊断标签，对他们中的许多人来说，它们变成了无期徒刑。
You have schizophrenia.
你患有精神分裂症。
That's a lifetime sentence.
这就是终身监禁。
It's probably never going to get better.
情况可能永远不会好转。
You certainly always have to take medicines for the rest of your life.
当然，您的余生始终必须服药。
You have bipolar disorder.
你患有双相情感障碍。
It's for life.
这是为了一生。
You have chronic depression.
你患有慢性抑郁症。
Sorry, we just don't know how to treat it.
抱歉，我们只是不知道如何治疗。
Depression should go away, but it's not going away for you.
抑郁症应该消失，但它不会为你消失。
We don't know what to do.
我们不知道该怎么办。
Sorry.
对不起。
So sorry.
很抱歉。
On the surface it may sound like, well, those are just rare people, Chris.
从表面上看，克里斯，这些人可能只是少数人。
They're not rare people.
他们并不罕见。
Hundreds of millions of people on our planet are given these life sentences.
我们星球上有数亿人被判处无期徒刑。
And we assume that we now know the cause.
我们假设我们现在知道原因了。
The cause is you have schizophrenia.
原因是你患有精神分裂症。
That's the cause.
这就是原因。
And in fact, schizophrenia is only a label of symptoms.
事实上，精神分裂症只是症状的一个标签。
Schizophrenia means a person who has chronic psychotic symptoms of unknown etiology.
精神分裂症是指患有病因不明的慢性精神病症状的人。
Of unknown etiology.
病因不明。
Because if we know the etiology, you don't call them schizophrenic anymore.
因为如果我们知道病因，你就不再称他们为精神分裂症患者。
You say they have vitamin B12 deficiency and psychosis, or you say they have an autoimmune disorder like lupus and psychosis.
你说他们患有维生素 B12 缺乏症和精神病，或者你说他们患有狼疮和精神病等自身免疫性疾病。
And why is that so important?
为什么这如此重要？
Because there's a treatment for these other things other than just antipsychotic medicines.
因为除了抗精神病药物之外，还有其他治疗方法。
And what I really hope and implore our field will do is we will come into the 21st century and begin to recognize that there is a cause of schizophrenia, there is a cause of bipolar symptoms, there is a cause for chronic depression, and that we will begin to look for those causes, and we will begin to treat those causes as opposed to just putting people on antipsychotics or antidepressants or mood stabilizers and telling them, "Well, we're really sorry.
我真正希望并恳求我们这个领域要做的是，我们进入21世纪，开始认识到精神分裂症、双相情感障碍、慢性抑郁症都有一个原因，我们将开始寻找这些原因，我们将开始治疗这些原因，而不是仅仅让人们服用抗精神病药、抗抑郁药或情绪稳定剂，然后告诉他们，“好吧，我们真的很抱歉。
We know these medicines don't cure your illness.
我们知道这些药物无法治愈您的疾病。
We know these are not disease-modifying treatments.
我们知道这些不是缓解疾病的治疗方法。
We're really sorry.
我们真的很抱歉。
We can't do better.
我们不能做得更好。
You're just going to have to suffer for life." We can do better.
你只能忍受一生的痛苦。”我们可以做得更好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I applaud your efforts to bring about that change.
我对你们为实现这一改变所做的努力表示赞赏。
I think people realizing that often, not always, but often mitochondrial dysfunction is at the heart of these things is critical.
我认为人们认识到线粒体功能障碍常常是这些问题的核心，这一点至关重要。
Speaking of which, I have to ask, and feel free to pass on this question if you like, but I've become very interested in vaccine biology and the debate about vaccines, about the adjuvants that are used to deliver the vaccines.
说到这里，我不得不问，如果你愿意的话，请随意转达这个问题，但我对疫苗生物学和关于疫苗、关于用于递送疫苗的佐剂的辩论非常感兴趣。
Obviously, it's a very contentious topic.
显然，这是一个非常有争议的话题。
I just want to know without being-- I'm not trying to be provocative here.
我只是想知道，但我并不是想在这里挑衅。
Is there any evidence that vaccines or the adjuvants for vaccines or anything about vaccines and their delivery can disrupt mitochondrial function?
是否有任何证据表明疫苗或疫苗佐剂或有关疫苗及其递送的任何内容会破坏线粒体功能？
So often we think that it's the vaccine having a specific effect on what the vaccine was designed to target that could potentially cause side effects or something like that.
我们经常认为疫苗对疫苗的设计目标有特定的影响，可能会导致副作用或类似的情况。
That's what many of the theories hold.
这就是许多理论所坚持的观点。
But given the key role of mitochondria in all aspects of brain functioning, and given that some people are convinced, I'm not saying I believe this, but are convinced that vaccines are tied to these mental health challenges or to autism, let's be direct about this, is there any evidence that vaccines of any kind can disrupt mitochondrial function or support mitochondrial function for that matter?
但考虑到线粒体在大脑功能各个方面的关键作用，并且考虑到有些人相信这一点，我并不是说我相信这一点，而是相信疫苗与这些心理健康挑战或自闭症有关，让我们直接讨论这一点，是否有任何证据表明任何类型的疫苗都可以破坏线粒体功能或支持线粒体功能？
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
It is a contentious ...
这是一个有争议的...
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe it's a different episode.
也许这是一个不同的情节。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
No, no. I'm definitely going to answer it, but I'm going to give a long-winded answer if that's okay.
不，不。我肯定会回答这个问题，但如果可以的话，我会给出一个冗长的答案。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Because I want-
因为我想要——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Whatever makes-
不管怎样——
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
...
...
I want to give credible information.
我想提供可信的信息。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
That's the only information we're interested in.
这是我们唯一感兴趣的信息。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
And I don't want to come down on one side that vaccines are 100% safe, there's no question about it, or, yes, vaccines cause autism, and that's why we've got skyrocketing rates of autism, because I don't think either of those extreme positions is true.
我不想一方面认为疫苗是 100% 安全的，这是毫无疑问的，或者，是的，疫苗会导致自闭症，这就是为什么我们的自闭症发病率飙升，因为我认为这两种极端立场都不正确。
So I want to first back up and just ask a slightly different question.
所以我想先回过头来问一个稍微不同的问题。
Is there any evidence that high levels of inflammation impair mitochondrial function?
是否有任何证据表明高水平的炎症会损害线粒体功能？
The answer to that is unequivocally yes.
答案无疑是肯定的。
High levels of inflammation, inflammatory cytokines like TNF-alpha, interleukin-6, and others impair mitochondrial function.
高水平的炎症、TNF-α、白细胞介素 6 等炎症细胞因子和其他细胞因子会损害线粒体功能。
We know that.
我们知道这一点。
It is clear and unequivocal.
这是清楚且明确的。
And there are physiological reasons for it.
这是有生理原因的。
The organism has to adapt.
有机体必须适应。
So when you have the flu, do you have neuropsychiatric symptoms?
那么当你患上流感时，你会出现神经精神症状吗？
Yes, you do.
是的，你知道。
You're going to feel exhausted.
你会感到精疲力尽。
You're going to be less risk-taking.
你会减少冒险。
You are not going to want to reproduce more than likely.
您不太可能想要复制。
You're going to completely lose your libido.
你将完全失去性欲。
Completely lose it.
彻底失去它。
Like zero interest.
比如零利息。
And what are you going to want to do?
你想做什么？
You're going to want to hide in bed and pull the covers over you and just retreat from the world for safety.
为了安全起见，你会想要躲在床上，盖上被子，远离这个世界。
Those are all effects on your mood, your motivation, rewarding behaviors, all sorts of things.
这些都会对你的情绪、动力、奖励行为等等产生影响。
The inflammation, the infection is doing that to you.
炎症、感染正在对你造成这种影响。
And we know that it's inflammation because this happens with cancer, it happens with treatments that cause inflammation.
我们知道这是炎症，因为这种情况发生在癌症中，发生在引起炎症的治疗中。
If we give treatments that cause high levels of inflammation, people experience these symptoms acutely If we give interferon, for example, which can be a treatment for some disorders, people will acutely develop all of these symptoms.
如果我们给予导致高度炎症的治疗，人们会急剧出现这些症状。例如，如果我们给予干扰素（可以治疗某些疾病），人们会急剧出现所有这些症状。
So we know that interferon itself will produce all of these neuropsychiatric symptoms.
所以我们知道干扰素本身会产生所有这些神经精神症状。
We also know from basic cell biology, interferon interferes with mitochondrial function.
我们还从基础细胞生物学得知，干扰素会干扰线粒体功能。
We know that.
我们知道这一点。
It is unequivocal.
这是明确的。
Now let's go to autism.
现在让我们来看看自闭症。
Is there any evidence that inflammation can lead to autism?
有证据表明炎症会导致自闭症吗？
We have decades of evidence for this.
我们有数十年的证据证明这一点。
We know that over the course of the last century, as there were outbreaks of bacterial or viral infections in the population, we saw higher rates of neuropsychiatric, neurodevelopmental disorders in the offspring-
我们知道，在上个世纪，随着人群中细菌或病毒感染的爆发，我们看到后代神经精神、神经发育障碍的发病率更高——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
...
...
of the pregnant women.
的孕妇。
So we've long known that, and that evidence is pretty well established.
所以我们很早就知道这一点，而且证据也很充分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For instance, forgive me, but the one that I'm aware of is that flu in pregnant mothers at the first to second trimester transition is correlated with statistically higher incidence of schizophrenia in the offspring.
例如，请原谅我，但据我所知，怀孕母亲在妊娠早期到中期过渡期间患流感与统计上较高的后代精神分裂症发病率相关。
Do I have that right?
我有这个权利吗？
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
That's correct.
这是正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
But then there was a rubella outbreak that resulted in much higher rates of autism in the offspring.
但随后风疹爆发，导致后代自闭症发病率大幅上升。
I think that was in the 1960s.
我认为那是在 20 世纪 60 年代。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
And now we have really decades of animal models.
现在我们确实拥有数十年的动物模型。
So they take mice, and they inject them with lipopolysaccharide-
所以他们拿老鼠给它们注射脂多糖-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
...
...
which causes an inflammatory reaction.
从而引起炎症反应。
And when they do this to pregnant mice, the mice that are born to those women, those female mice, are at much higher risk for showing signs or symptoms of what looks like a neurodevelopmental disorder.
当他们对怀孕的老鼠这样做时，这些雌性老鼠所生的老鼠出现神经发育障碍迹象或症状的风险要高得多。
It's different diagnosing or whatever a neurodevelopmental condition in a mouse.
这是不同的诊断或小鼠的神经发育状况。
Is it 100%?
是100%吗？
No. It's just we increase the risk.
不，只是我们增加了风险。
So if you inject a pregnant mouse with lipopolysaccharide, can that mouse still have a normal-appearing mouse?
那么，如果给怀孕的小鼠注射脂多糖，那只小鼠还能拥有外观正常的小鼠吗？
Yes.
是的。
But the probability that the offspring will have symptoms of a neurodevelopmental condition increase.
但后代出现神经发育疾病症状的可能性会增加。
That is where so much of the autism research has been focused, is trying to understand this, trying to understand what is happening with inflammation, how does that impact neurodevelopment.
这就是许多自闭症研究的重点，试图了解这一点，试图了解炎症发生了什么，它如何影响神经发育。
We know that.
我们知道这一点。
So now back to the question that you posed.
现在回到你提出的问题。
Is there any possibility that vaccines could contribute to that process?
疫苗是否有可能促进这一过程？
Do vaccines increase inflammation?
疫苗会增加炎症吗？
I think the answer to that is yes.
我认为答案是肯定的。
Is there variation in the inflammatory response between different people?
不同人之间的炎症反应是否存在差异？
I think the answer to that is yes.
我认为答案是肯定的。
Can some people have a hyper-exaggerated inflammatory response in response to a vaccine?
有些人会对疫苗产生过度的炎症反应吗？
I think the answer to that is yes.
我认为答案是肯定的。
In that condition, so in that rare, less common condition where somebody is having a hyper-exaggerated inflammatory response to a vaccination, could that impact neurodevelopment?
在这种情况下，在这种罕见的、不太常见的情况下，某人对疫苗接种产生过度夸张的炎症反应，这会影响神经发育吗？
The science right now says yes.
现在的科学表明是的。
We have no reason to think it wouldn't.
我们没有理由认为不会。
There's one case of a young child who already had an existing mitochondrial disorder.
有一个案例，一名幼儿已经患有线粒体疾病。
It was already known.
这已经是众所周知的了。
She got vaccines, and I think within days or weeks of getting the vaccinations, she developed profound neurodevelopmental symptoms.
她接种了疫苗，我认为在接种疫苗后的几天或几周内，她出现了严重的神经发育症状。
That case won a lawsuit.
那件事打赢了官司。
It went to court, it was tried in court, and she won, and the court ruled that the vaccine did in fact contribute to this girl's neurodevelopmental condition.
它上了法庭，在法庭上受审，她赢了，法庭裁定疫苗确实有助于这个女孩的神经发育状况。
Now, they assumed it was because she had a preexisting mitochondrial disorder, and I would support that.
现在，他们认为这是因为她患有先前存在的线粒体疾病，我会支持这一点。
It lines up perfectly with what I've been talking about all along, that people who have vulnerabilities with mitochondria or metabolism, you can only absorb so many hits, and when you get that final hit that tips the balance to impact neurodevelopment, you can get that.
这与我一直在谈论的内容完全一致，即线粒体或新陈代谢有缺陷的人，你只能吸收这么多的打击，当你得到最终的打击，平衡影响神经发育时，你就能得到它。
Now, coming back to the bigger question, so should people get vaccinated or not?
现在，回到更大的问题，人们是否应该接种疫苗？
We do have reasonably good evidence that unvaccinated people are more likely to develop autism than vaccinated people.
我们确实有相当充分的证据表明，未接种疫苗的人比接种疫苗的人更有可能患上自闭症。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
The problem with that study is that it's a retrospective cohort epidemiological study And the biggest critique that I have of that type of research is that the researchers decide what they control for and what they don't control for.
这项研究的问题在于，它是一项回顾性队列流行病学研究，我对此类研究最大的批评是，研究人员决定他们控制什么和不控制什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
But the existing research right now, as published and as designed, suggests that if you don't get a vaccine, you're more likely to develop autism than if you do get a vaccine.
但目前已发表和设计的现有研究表明，如果不接种疫苗，则比接种疫苗更有可能患上自闭症。
And how would I understand that?
我该如何理解呢？
I just talked about it.
我刚才谈到了。
Infections themselves can cause neurodevelopmental disorders.
感染本身可引起神经发育障碍。
So if a child gets measles, they're not only at risk of dying of measles, they're also at risk of impacting their mitochondrial function and developing a neurodevelopmental disorder as a result of getting a severe infection.
因此，如果孩子感染麻疹，他们不仅有死于麻疹的风险，而且还有可能影响线粒体功能，并因严重感染而出现神经发育障碍。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Assuming there's choice, there's a risk-benefit analysis.
假设有选择，就会有风险收益分析。
Do you want the potential inflammation from the vaccine, or lack of inflammation, you run the gamble.
你想要疫苗带来潜在的炎症，还是不产生炎症，你就得赌一把了。
It's hard to predict who's going to have a big inflammatory response-
很难预测谁会出现大的炎症反应——
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
It is
它是
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and who's not.
谁不是。
Although, I'm thinking in the back of my mind about these lifestyle factors, even though it's a young child or an adolescent in some cases, but young children typically, there are things that you can do to bolster the health of that kid going into a vaccine if you're choosing to vaccinate your kids, right?
虽然，我在内心深处思考这些生活方式因素，即使在某些情况下是幼儿或青少年，但通常是幼儿，如果您选择为孩子接种疫苗，您可以采取一些措施来增强接种疫苗的孩子的健康，对吧？
Like proper sleep, proper nutrition, proper everything.
比如适当的睡眠、适当的营养、适当的一切。
You wouldn't want them even slightly sleep deprived because that would increase the risk of inflammation, right?
您不希望他们哪怕只是轻微的睡眠不足，因为这会增加炎症的风险，对吧？
These things compound, as I understand it.
据我了解，这些事情是复合的。
So, I think what most all parents really want is a sense of control over what are inevitably a mixture of controllable and uncontrollable factors.
所以，我认为大多数父母真正想要的是一种对不可避免的可控和不可控因素混合的控制感。
And this is what I hear when I really listen to this debate about vaccines.
这就是当我真正聆听有关疫苗的辩论时我听到的。
I hear my science colleagues inevitably saying, "Okay, the Wakefield data were BS," et cetera.
我听到我的科学同事不可避免地会说，“好吧，韦克菲尔德的数据都是废话”，等等。
Like, "No, no, no, there's no possibility." And then I hear parents who are having kids, whose kids are due for vaccines, and they're like, "I don't know what to do." They're terrified.
就像，“不，不，不，没有可能性。”然后我听到那些有孩子的父母，他们的孩子应该接种疫苗，他们会说，“我不知道该怎么办。”他们很害怕。
And these are smart people, and they don't know what to believe anymore.
这些都是聪明人，他们不知道该相信什么了。
That's the challenge.
这就是挑战。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
The science that I just laid out is true.
我刚才阐述的科学是正确的。
It's clear.
天气晴朗。
And again, we've got decades of research to support most of what I've just said, all of what I've just said, I think.
再说一遍，我们有数十年的研究来支持我刚才所说的大部分内容，我认为我刚才所说的全部内容。
If you understand the biology, when a child begins to show symptoms of a neurodevelopmental disorder, instead of assigning a label, "This is autism.
如果你了解生物学，当一个孩子开始表现出神经发育障碍的症状时，而不是贴上标签，“这是自闭症。
It's a life sentence.
这是无期徒刑。
Good luck," we should be intervening.
祝你好运，”我们应该进行干预。
And what could we do to intervene?
我们可以做些什么来干预？
What you just said in terms of prevention strategies, absolutely.
你刚才所说的预防策略，绝对是这样。
Let's make sure that even before you're going to the doctor, even before you're exposing yourself to any of these vaccines, that you're healthy.
让我们确保，甚至在您去看医生之前，甚至在您接触任何这些疫苗之前，您都是健康的。
Why?
为什么？
Because we want you to be healthy.
因为我们希望您健康。
Why wouldn't you want to be healthy?
你为什么不想健康呢？
So let's just be healthy.
所以，让我们保持健康吧。
But I would actually go much further and say as soon as a child begins to show signs or symptoms, especially when it's an abrupt change, when they were developing in a neurotypical way and then all of a sudden they got an infection, or they got a vaccine, or something happened, and now they are falling off the trajectory.
但我实际上会更进一步说，一旦孩子开始表现出体征或症状，尤其是当这是一个突然的变化时，当他们以神经典型的方式发育时，然后突然他们受到感染，或者他们接种了疫苗，或者发生了一些事情，现在他们就偏离了轨道。
And that's what we hear from these parents who are saying, "No, this is real." That's why they believe vaccines cause it.
这就是我们从这些父母那里听到的，他们说：“不，这是真的。”这就是为什么他们相信疫苗会导致这种情况。
Do I think it was just the vaccine on its own?
我认为这只是疫苗本身吗？
I suspect a lot of them have had other hits.
我怀疑他们中的很多人还受到过其他打击。
They probably had other vulnerabilities going into that vaccination, and that the vaccination, if we even entertain the possibility that that vaccine did contribute to their autism, I'm doubtful that it was the sole cause, but regardless, once the kid starts showing signs or symptoms, we should be doing a full workup.
他们在接种疫苗时可能还有其他弱点，而且疫苗接种，如果我们甚至考虑到该疫苗确实导致了他们的自闭症的可能性，我怀疑这是唯一的原因，但无论如何，一旦孩子开始出现体征或症状，我们就应该进行全面的检查。
We should be looking for vitamin and nutrient deficiencies.
我们应该寻找维生素和营养素的缺乏情况。
We should be looking for this central B12 deficiency.
我们应该寻找这种主要的 B12 缺乏症。
Did the vaccine somehow cause an autoimmune reaction to CD320 so that now this kid has central B12 deficiency, and that is why this kid is falling off the chart?
疫苗是否以某种方式引起了对 CD320 的自身免疫反应，导致这个孩子现在患有中枢性维生素 B12 缺乏症，这就是为什么这个孩子成绩下降的原因？
Should we entertain a ketogenic diet for this child?
我们应该为这个孩子进行生酮饮食吗？
I would say yes, we should.
我会说是的，我们应该。
That should be on the table of options.
这应该在选项表上。
We might want to put this child on a ketogenic diet.
我们可能想让这个孩子进行生酮饮食。
Does that ever happen?
这种事会发生吗？
It happens all the time in kids with epilepsy, so why not do it for neurodevelopmental conditions?
这种情况在患有癫痫的孩子身上经常发生，那么为什么不针对神经发育疾病呢？
But again, it's not just keto diet is going to save the day, and we don't have to think about central B12 deficiency or any of these other things.
但同样，不仅仅是生酮饮食可以拯救世界，我们也不必考虑中枢维生素 B12 缺乏症或任何其他问题。
Let's put it all together, and especially with AI now.
让我们把它们放在一起，尤其是现在的人工智能。
We can do this.
我们可以做到这一点。
This is a solvable puzzle.
这是一个可解的谜题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
It is a complex puzzle, no doubt, but it is a solvable puzzle, and we should start to solve it.
毫无疑问，这是一个复杂的难题，但它是一个可以解决的难题，我们应该开始解决它。
But right now, the state of the field is that we assign a label autism, and we tell the parents to just prepare for a disabled child.
但现在，这个领域的现状是我们给自闭症贴上标签，并告诉父母为残疾孩子做好准备。
Just prepare yourself to take care of a disabled child for life.
只要做好终生照顾残疾儿童的准备即可。
We're really sorry.
我们真的很抱歉。
We don't have anything more to offer.
我们没有什么可以提供的了。
We can do some ABA training.
我们可以做一些ABA训练。
We'll try to teach them some social skills.
我们将尝试教他们一些社交技能。
The real outcome data on that is pretty bad If your brain's not working right, it's hard to teach people how to do the skills that the brain is designed to do.
真实的结果数据非常糟糕。如果你的大脑不能正常工作，就很难教人们如何执行大脑设计的技能。
And that's the challenge, is that it's all well and good to recognize a problem, but now we need to come up with effective treatments.
这就是挑战，认识到问题固然很好，但现在我们需要拿出有效的治疗方法。
And we know that a lot of the people talking about early intervention with autism, as though early intervention is going to save the day.
我们知道很多人都在谈论自闭症的早期干预，就好像早期干预可以拯救世界一样。
I don't mean to bash the people doing that work.
我并不是要抨击从事这项工作的人。
Let's do anything we can.
让我们尽我们所能。
It might help a little, but when you look at the outcome data, it's not helping much.
它可能有一点帮助，但是当你查看结果数据时，它并没有多大帮助。
And when you look at the statistics of the prevalence of autism, it's going through the roof.
当你查看自闭症患病率的统计数据时，你会发现它正在急剧上升。
So those strategies are just not working.
所以这些策略根本不起作用。
They're not working for prevention.
他们不是为了预防而工作。
They're not working to improve long-term outcomes.
他们并没有致力于改善长期成果。
We have a lot of work to do.
我们还有很多工作要做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I appreciate the thoroughness of your answer.
我很欣赏你回答的彻底性。
I can promise you that anything we put out about that will include the full context.
我可以向你保证，我们发布的任何内容都将包含完整的背景。
We're not-
我们不是——
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Good.
很好。
People will take the soundbite and yeah.
人们会接受原声片段，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, if they do, I'm going to get rabid by-
好吧，如果他们这么做了，我会发狂的——
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
It's fine
没关系
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
posting the preamble because it's very important that people hear the full context.
发布序言是因为让人们听到完整的上下文非常重要。
And I really appreciate you embracing that topic with the depth and rigor and sensitivity also that you do, because I don't think we can duck this vaccine question anymore.
我真的很感谢你以深度、严谨和敏感的态度接受这个话题，因为我认为我们不能再回避这个疫苗问题了。
I never thought in my lifetime that vaccines would be a thing.
我一生中从未想过疫苗会成为一种东西。
It's like when I was a kid, everyone got the polio vaccine, the measles vaccine, and kind of went about our way.
就像我小时候，每个人都接种了脊髓灰质炎疫苗、麻疹疫苗，然后就开始了我们的生活。
I do understand the number of vaccines that kids are getting now.
我确实了解孩子们现在接种的疫苗数量。
The vaccine schedule has expanded.
疫苗接种时间表已经扩大。
Yeah, I've been kind of thrown into the middle of this as different guests have come on this podcast who've said they do get the flu vaccine, others who say they don't.
是的，我有点被卷入其中，因为不同的嘉宾来到这个播客，他们说他们确实接种了流感疫苗，而其他人则说他们没有。
And gosh, if ever there was a separator besides Democrat versus Republican, it's this vaccine thing.
天哪，如果除了民主党和共和党之外还有什么区别的话，那就是疫苗问题了。
It's really like the separator.
它真的很像分隔符。
It's so closely tied to believes in science, doesn't believe in science.
它与相信科学、不相信科学紧密相连。
Those are the stereotypes, right?
这些都是刻板印象，对吗？
Or suspicious of science, NIH, and CDC, or believes in science, NIH, and the CDC wholeheartedly.
或者对科学、NIH、CDC持怀疑态度，或者全心全意地相信科学、NIH、CDC。
The divide is very stark, and this needs to stop.
分歧非常明显，这种情况需要停止。
The divide needs to stop.
分歧需要停止。
We need to start filling in with answers.
我们需要开始填写答案。
And I think there's soon to be an exploration, a scientific exploration of the relationship between vaccines and autism.
我认为很快就会对疫苗和自闭症之间的关系进行科学探索。
I read this someplace on X, which means But I think that's the idea, and I think some people are kind of upset that resources were going to be devoted to this because they felt like it was a done deal, and then others are very excited because they feel like, "Hey, listen, if you don't think there's a link, then here's an opportunity to establish that with real rigor." And I think everyone's just really interested in the studies being done properly.
我在 X 上的某个地方读到了这篇文章，这意味着但我认为这就是这个想法，我认为有些人对将资源投入到这件事上感到有点不安，因为他们觉得这已经是板上钉钉的事情了，然后其他人则非常兴奋，因为他们觉得，“嘿，听着，如果你不认为存在联系，那么这里有机会以真正严格的方式建立联系。”我认为每个人都对正确进行的研究非常感兴趣。
Look, I think more data is always great.
听着，我认为更多的数据总是好的。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
I don't disagree.
我不同意。
And I've actually talked to some former NIMH directors about this and some other leading people in this field.
事实上，我已经与一些前 NIMH 董事以及该领域的其他一些领先人士讨论过这个问题。
And there's no doubt that this topic has been brought up multiple times at the NIH.
毫无疑问，这个话题在 NIH 已被多次提及。
So there's this inter-agency coordinating committee on autism among all of the NIH kind of centers and institutes.
因此，在所有 NIH 类型的中心和机构中，都有一个关于自闭症的机构间协调委员会。
It's existed for decades.
它已经存在了几十年。
They have looked into this issue.
他们已经调查了这个问题。
I've talked to some autism advocates who've said, "I was hoping that vaccines might be the cause.
我与一些自闭症倡导者交谈过，他们说：“我希望疫苗可能是原因。
I was really hoping to see that vaccines are the cause because that would then give us a cause, and it would lead us to interventions to make vaccines safer or whatever." And she said, "But it's just not there.
我真的希望看到疫苗是原因，因为这会给我们一个原因，它会引导我们采取干预措施，使疫苗更安全或其他什么。”她说：“但它就是不在那里。
It's just not there." And this former NIMH director that I spoke with, "It's just not there, Chris.
它只是不在那里。”我采访过的这位前 NIMH 主任说：“克里斯，它根本不存在。
It's not there.
它不在那里。
We looked.
我们看了看。
We looked high and low." Again, I'm not sure that everybody looked with the same degree of scrutiny.
我们看起来高高低低。”再说一次，我不确定每个人都以同样程度的审查来看待。
Again, the study that I saw looked at people who are unvaccinated by choice.
再次，我看到的研究着眼于那些选择不接种疫苗的人。
So these are rebellious people who are defying state laws, who are risking not getting their children into schools because they're not getting vaccinations.
因此，这些叛逆的人违反了州法律，他们冒着因为没有接种疫苗而无法让孩子上学的风险。
That's the cohort of unvaccinated people.
那是一群未接种疫苗的人。
And then they're comparing them to the cohort of vaccinated people, and they only controlled for two or three variables.
然后他们将它们与接种疫苗的人群进行比较，他们只控制了两三个变量。
They did not control for obesity.
他们没有控制肥胖。
They didn't control for diabetes.
他们没有控制糖尿病。
And we know that obesity and diabetes play a role in risk for autism.
我们知道肥胖和糖尿病是导致自闭症风险的一个因素。
And we know that people who have existing health conditions might actually be more likely to be worried about vaccines and then not get vaccines.
我们知道，有健康状况的人实际上可能更有可能担心疫苗，而不是接种疫苗。
Perfectly happy, healthy, thriving people usually just go along with the status quo.
完全快乐、健康、繁荣的人通常只是安于现状。
They usually don't refuse vaccines.
他们通常不会拒绝疫苗。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
So people who are refusing vaccines probably had some preexisting health condition.
因此，拒绝接种疫苗的人可能已有一些健康状况。
They didn't control for that.
他们没有控制这一点。
Did that preexisting health condition increase risk for autism?
先前存在的健康状况是否会增加患自闭症的风险？
Probably.
大概。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, if there's an inflammation link, then yes.
好吧，如果存在炎症联系，那么是的。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Probably.
可能吧。
You look at any preexisting health condition, and does it increase risk for other health conditions?
您查看任何先前存在的健康状况，它是否会增加其他健康状况的风险？
Usually, the answer is yes.
通常，答案是肯定的。
So we know that women with obesity, much more likely, twice as likely, to have an autistic child.
所以我们知道，肥胖的女性生出患有自闭症的孩子的可能性是女性的两倍。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Meta-analysis, over three million people.
荟萃分析，超过三百万人。
Women with obesity have double the risk of having an autistic child.
肥胖女性生出自闭症孩子的风险增加一倍。
Have rates of obesity been skyrocketing in our population?
我们人口的肥胖率是否一直在飙升？
The answer is yes.
答案是肯定的。
Are pregnant women also in that camp of obese women?
孕妇也属于肥胖女性阵营吗？
Yes.
是的。
Well, that accounts for a doubling of autism.
嗯，这就是自闭症发病率加倍的原因。
Same deal with diabetes.
糖尿病也是如此。
Women who have diabetes, twice as likely to have autistic children as women who don't have diabetes.
患有糖尿病的女性生育自闭症儿童的可能性是未患有糖尿病的女性的两倍。
When you put the two together, obese and diabetic, quadruple the rate of autism in the offspring.
当肥胖和糖尿病这两者放在一起时，后代患自闭症的几率会增加四倍。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What about dad?
爸爸呢？
There are these theories about the statistically significant increases in rates of autism for offspring of men who are 50 or older.
有这些理论认为，50 岁或以上男性的后代自闭症发病率在统计上显着增加。
My read of the data is that it's still a very small increase.
我对数据的解读是，增幅仍然很小。
It's not like the kind of increases you're describing here-
这不像你在这里描述的那种增加-
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
It is
它是
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for diabetes.
对于糖尿病。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
It is.
是的。
So men with obesity, twice as likely to have an autistic child as men who are not obese.
因此，肥胖男性生出自闭症孩子的可能性是不肥胖男性的两倍。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, which is something like 25 times greater than the increase due to age-
是的，这大约是年龄增长的 25 倍——
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of the male.
男性的。
So this is so important because people hear, older sperm equals higher probability of autism, but yes, still a very low probability of autism compared to dad is obese but in his 20s or 30s.
所以这非常重要，因为人们听说，年龄较大的精子等于自闭症的可能性较高，但是，与肥胖但在 20 多岁或 30 多岁的父亲相比，自闭症的可能性仍然非常低。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Yes.
是的。
And so, a lot of people are hyper-focused on vaccines cause autism, and they come back to rates of autism are skyrocketing, there has to be a reason.
因此，很多人过度关注导致自闭症的疫苗，而他们回过头来发现自闭症发病率正在飙升，这肯定是有原因的。
Well, I agree.
嗯，我同意。
Rates of autism are skyrocketing.
自闭症发病率正在飙升。
I agree there does have to be a reason.
我同意这肯定是有原因的。
Maybe we're missing the elephant in the room.
也许我们错过了房间里的大象。
Rates of metabolic poor health are skyrocketing in our population.
我们人口中代谢不良健康的比率正在飙升。
Rates of obesity and diabetes are skyrocketing, but rates of poor metabolic health.
肥胖和糖尿病的发病率急剧上升，但代谢健康状况不佳的比例却在上升。
So metabolic syndrome has five biomarkers.
因此，代谢综合征有五种生物标志物。
Abdominal obesity, blood pressure, high levels of glucose, and then high triglycerides and low HDL cholesterol.
腹部肥胖、血压、高血糖，然后是高甘油三酯和低高密度脂蛋白胆固醇。
Those are the five biomarkers of metabolic syndrome.
这些是代谢综合征的五个生物标志物。
Only 7% of Americans are healthy in all five biomarkers.
只有 7% 的美国人在所有五种生物标志物上都保持健康。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yikes.
哎呀。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Only 7%.
只有7%。
Poor metabolic health influences neurodevelopment in offspring.
代谢健康状况不佳会影响后代的神经发育。
We know that.
我们知道这一点。
So we see skyrocketing rates of autism.
所以我们看到自闭症发病率急剧上升。
It's not just autism.
这不仅仅是自闭症。
We see skyrocketing rates of ADHD as well, simultaneously.
与此同时，我们也看到 ADHD 的发病率急剧上升。
And everybody's scratching their heads trying to figure out where is all this autism coming from?
每个人都绞尽脑汁想弄清楚这些自闭症从何而来？
Where is all this ADHD coming from?
这些多动症从何而来？
Well, look around, people.
好吧，看看周围，人们。
As the metabolic health of the United States population declines, we are going to see more neurodevelopmental disorders.
随着美国人口代谢健康状况的下降，我们将看到更多的神经发育障碍。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Such a critical message, but also reassuring in the sense that we can do something about it.
这是一个至关重要的信息，但也令人放心，因为我们可以采取一些措施。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
We can.
我们可以。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, because what you're talking about is metabolic dysfunction, mitochondrial dysfunction of the parents, right?
是的，因为你说的是代谢功能障碍，父母的线粒体功能障碍，对吗？
So, trying to control the behavior of still unborn, or yet to be conceived children is pretty tough to do.
因此，试图控制尚未出生或尚未怀孕的孩子的行为是相当困难的。
And yet anyone thinking of conceiving should really pay close attention to their metabolic health is clearly the message.
然而，任何想要怀孕的人都应该真正密切关注自己的代谢健康，这显然是一个信息。
I think obesity becomes a little bit of a critical factor, yet a distractor, that wasn't meant to rhyme, for when we hear metabolic health, I think a number of people hearing this will say, "Well, I'm not overweight, so my mitochondria are probably healthy." But what you listed off included high triglycerides.
我认为肥胖成为一个关键因素，但却是一个干扰因素，这并不意味着押韵，因为当我们听到代谢健康时，我想很多人听到这个会说，“嗯，我没有超重，所以我的线粒体可能是健康的。”但你列出的内容包括高甘油三酯。
You said blood pressure, which there are some thin people, or non-apparently obese people.
你说的血压，里面有一些瘦的人，或者非明显肥胖的人。
I say apparently obese because a lot of people are carrying a higher body fat percentage than they realize, even though they're not taking up a lot of space.
我说明显肥胖是因为很多人的体脂百分比比他们意识到的要高，尽管他们并没有占据太多空间。
So I think, it's not always-- And low HDL.
所以我认为，HDL 并不总是低。
So sometimes, we're shocked to see like, oh, this person is apparently healthy, but has low HDL, and their ApoB is through the roof, and they're not well.
所以有时候，我们会惊讶地发现，哦，这个人显然很健康，但 HDL 很低，而且他们的 ApoB 很高，而且他们身体不太好。
But just because they're not obese doesn't mean they're metabolically healthy, correct?
但仅仅因为他们不肥胖并不意味着他们的新陈代谢健康，对吗？
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
That is absolutely correct.
这是绝对正确的。
And I go back to some of our prior conversation.
我回到我们之前的一些谈话。
So a 14-year-old girl who is severely iron deficient is metabolically unhealthy.
所以一个严重缺铁的14岁女孩新陈代谢不健康。
Why?
为什么？
Because her mitochondria can't function properly without iron.
因为如果没有铁，她的线粒体就无法正常运作。
She can be thin.
她可以很瘦。
She can otherwise look like a healthy, attractive girl, but she can be metabolically unhealthy because she doesn't have all of the essential vitamins and nutrients that she needs to have properly functioning mitochondria and metabolism.
她可能看起来像一个健康、有吸引力的女孩，但她的新陈代谢可能不健康，因为她没有线粒体和新陈代谢正常运作所需的所有必需维生素和营养素。
And why would that matter?
为什么这很重要？
It matters because she might develop an anxiety disorder, or she might develop depression, or she might develop symptoms of an eating disorder.
这很重要，因为她可能会患上焦虑症，或者她可能会患上抑郁症，或者她可能会出现饮食失调的症状。
And then we're all scratching our heads giving those labels, "Oh, you've got depression.
然后我们都在给这些标签摸不着头脑，“哦，你得了抑郁症。
You've got anxiety.
你有焦虑症。
You need Prozac." And maybe she really needs iron.
你需要百忧解。”也许她真的需要铁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
What I realized, and this was really where I wanted to bring us to ...
我意识到，这确实是我想带我们去的地方......
is a question for you.
这是一个问题给你。
I have an idea, but let's also pose the question as an idea and feel free to bat it down.
我有一个想法，但我们也可以把这个问题作为一个想法提出来，然后随意否决它。
I'm beginning to think that in order to get out of this health rut that we're in, that clearly relates to mitochondrial dysfunction, and at the same time, there are tools, the lifestyle tools that you described.
我开始认为，为了摆脱我们所处的健康困境，这显然与线粒体功能障碍有关，同时，有一些工具，你所描述的生活方式工具。
Yes, there are supplements, and maybe methylene blue will be advantageous, and methyl B12 perhaps, but certainly the lifestyle factors.
是的，有补充剂，也许亚甲基蓝会更有利，也许还有甲基 B12，但肯定是生活方式因素。
Most people, again, when they hear metabolic health, they just think, okay, metabolism, obesity, thinness or fatness, and it sort of becomes a gravitational pull towards that.
大多数人，再次，当他们听到代谢健康时，他们只是想，好吧，新陈代谢，肥胖，瘦或胖，这有点成为朝着这个方向的引力。
Do you think it's possible to create a metric?
您认为可以创建一个指标吗？
I don't want to say BMI as an example because that's controversial for some people, but is it possible to create a metric of all-around metabolic health that would be incentivized so that people can live better lives, their offspring can be healthier as well, and we can unburden the healthcare system and potentially avoid millions and millions of people having these so-called incurable mental health disorders in air quotes?
我不想以体重指数为例，因为这对某些人来说是有争议的，但是否有可能创建一个全面的代谢健康指标，并对其进行激励，以便人们可以过上更好的生活，他们的后代也可以更健康，我们可以减轻医疗保健系统的负担，并有可能避免数以百万计的人患有这些所谓的无法治愈的精神健康障碍？
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
What you're describing is, in my mind, a really important next step.
在我看来，你所描述的是非常重要的下一步。
And the great news is that there are several research groups that I know of that are working on exactly that.
好消息是，据我所知，有几个研究小组正在研究这一问题。
One is a commercial company.
一是商业公司。
I'm not going to name any names, but one is a commercial company that has a product of a series of biomarkers, blood biomarkers, that they believe represent ultimately mitochondrial dysfunction.
我不会说出任何名字，但其中一个是一家商业公司，该公司拥有一系列生物标记物（血液生物标记物）的产品，他们认为这些产品最终代表了线粒体功能障碍。
All of the different cellular pathways that can result in mitochondrial dysfunction and/or can reflect mitochondrial dysfunction.
所有不同的细胞途径都可能导致线粒体功能障碍和/或可以反映线粒体功能障碍。
And they believe that their test might be able to predict the development of autism, that every child at age one should get this blood biomarker, and it will tell us who's at high risk of developing a neurodevelopmental disorder.
他们相信他们的测试可能能够预测自闭症的发展，每个一岁的孩子都应该接受这种血液生物标志物，它会告诉我们谁有患神经发育障碍的高风险。
The test itself doesn't tell us what's wrong.
测试本身并不能告诉我们出了什么问题。
It just tells us something's wrong, and then the clinicians need to go to work and try to figure out what is going on, what is causing this metabolic mitochondrial dysregulation, so that we could potentially intervene.
它只是告诉我们出了什么问题，然后临床医生需要去工作并试图找出正在发生的事情，是什么导致了这种代谢线粒体失调，以便我们可以进行干预。
I've talked with one of the leading mitochondrial researchers really in the world.
我曾与世界上一位领先的线粒体研究人员进行过交谈。
He's got a set of 20 biomarkers that he believes represent mitochondrial dysfunction broadly.
他拥有一组 20 种生物标志物，他认为这些生物标志物广泛代表了线粒体功能障碍。
And then there's another research group that has actually narrowed it down to just five different biomarkers in men and five slightly different, there's some overlap, but slight differences in women.
然后还有另一个研究小组实际上将其范围缩小到男性中的五种不同的生物标志物和女性中的五种略有不同的生物标志物，有一些重叠，但略有差异。
And those five biomarkers alone were able to distinguish people with chronic severe suicidal depression from healthy controls with over 90% sensitivity and specificity.
仅这五种生物标志物就能够以超过 90% 的敏感性和特异性区分患有慢性严重自杀抑郁症的人与健康对照者。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
So I think that is one of the directions we need to go, is we need to establish tests with all of these groups.
所以我认为这是我们需要走的方向之一，我们需要与所有这些群体进行测试。
I want to just state clearly and plainly, because one of the common questions I get is, what's the blood test I can get for my mitochondrial health?
我想简单明了地说明，因为我收到的常见问题之一是，我可以通过什么血液测试来检测我的线粒体健康状况？
There isn't one.
没有一个。
That's the answer.
这就是答案。
There is not one.
没有一个。
There are lots of different biomarkers that can suggest dysregulation of metabolism and mitochondrial function.
有许多不同的生物标志物可以表明新陈代谢和线粒体功能失调。
And again, these three research groups are all working on it.
再说一次，这三个研究小组都在研究这个问题。
In order to get those five biomarkers for men and women, I think they measured 400 different biomarkers.
为了获得男性和女性的这 5 种生物标志物，我认为他们测量了 400 种不同的生物标志物。
So we need to make sure that that gets replicated, that it's prospectively, it can identify people.
所以我们需要确保它能够被复制，它是前瞻性的，它可以识别人。
I'm less concerned about the incentivizing, and let's give insurance discounts and other things.
我不太关心激励措施，让我们提供保险折扣和其他东西。
I actually think the majority of human beings that I know authentically want to be healthy, and they authentically really want to have healthy children.
事实上，我认为我认识的大多数人都真正想要健康，他们也真的想要拥有健康的孩子。
They will do anything to have healthy children.
为了拥有健康的孩子，他们会做任何事情。
So I don't think we necessarily need to come up with some incentives right now.
所以我认为我们现在不一定需要拿出一些激励措施。
I think if we develop evidence-based tools that prospective parents can use to assess their own metabolic mitochondrial health, and maybe more importantly, assess their prospective children's health, and then we pair that with evidence-based strategies to help them improve their metabolic health, so that it will improve the outcomes for those children.
我认为，如果我们开发出基于证据的工具，未来的父母可以用它来评估他们自己的代谢线粒体健康，也许更重要的是，评估他们未来孩子的健康，然后我们将其与基于证据的策略结合起来，帮助他们改善代谢健康，从而改善这些孩子的结果。
That's the Holy Grail.
这就是圣杯。
What I just said probably represents decades of research.
我刚才说的可能代表了几十年的研究。
The sooner we get started, the better, and some of it's already underway, as I've mentioned, so it's not like we start from ground zero.
我们越早开始越好，正如我所提到的，其中一些已经在进行中，所以我们并不是从零开始。
People have been on this trail for a while.
人们在这条路上已经走了一段时间。
But it is going to require a concerted effort.
但这需要齐心协力。
It's going to require massive NIH funding to support that type of research.
这将需要美国国立卫生研究院的大量资金来支持此类研究。
We have a new administration that is talking about massive disruption in the way things are done.
我们的新政府正在谈论对工作方式进行大规模破坏。
They're talking about massive changes at the NIH.
他们正在谈论美国国立卫生研究院的巨大变革。
I am really hoping and praying that we're going to see that type of research, as opposed to the current model of research which focuses on, well, here's your diagnosis, schizophrenia or hypertension, and what new pills can we develop to treat this condition, or how can we understand this condition?
我真的希望并祈祷我们能够看到这种类型的研究，而不是目前的研究模式，目前的研究模式侧重于，嗯，这是你的诊断，精神分裂症或高血压，以及我们可以开发什么新药来治疗这种情况，或者我们如何理解这种情况？
I think we have enough evidence To be able to really aggressively pursue more effective treatment and prevention strategies.
我认为我们有足够的证据能够真正积极地寻求更有效的治疗和预防策略。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fantastic.
太棒了。
What role do you see yourself in going forward?
您认为自己在未来的发展中扮演什么角色？
Clearly, public education about these issues related to metabolic and mitochondrial health is a wonderful home for you.
显然，有关代谢和线粒体健康相关问题的公共教育对您来说是一个美好的家。
In addition to all your clinical work and everything else you're doing this, you're clearly very passionate about it.
除了您所有的临床工作和您正在做的其他事情之外，您显然对此非常热情。
If I may ask, do you have plans to get involved in helping the new NIH, new Health and Human Services folks steer in the right direction?
我可以问一下，您是否有计划参与帮助新的 NIH、新的卫生和公共服务人员朝着正确的方向前进？
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
I am more than happy to serve as a consultant if asked, and I have had some conversations with a wide range of people.
如果有人邀请，我非常乐意担任顾问，并且我与很多人进行了一些对话。
So I'm more than happy to do my part.
所以我非常乐意尽自己的一份力量。
I think for the immediate future, honestly, I'm focused on some of these lines of research through McLean Hospital and Harvard Medical School.
老实说，我认为在不久的将来，我将重点关注麦克莱恩医院和哈佛医学院的一些研究方向。
I'm really aggressively working on setting up a healthcare system practice to start where we will treat people with these severe chronic mental health conditions that I started a wait list about a year ago, and I have over 5,300 people on my waiting list.
我正在积极致力于建立一个医疗保健系统实践，以治疗患有这些严重慢性心理健康疾病的人，大约一年前我开始了等待名单，我的等待名单上有超过 5,300 人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
I can't treat 5,300 people, but I have the privilege of a lot of brilliant clinicians are reaching out, wanting to work with me.
我无法治疗 5,300 名患者，但我很荣幸有很多出色的临床医生向我伸出援手，希望与我合作。
What I'm hoping to do is to put into practice, into real-world practice, everything that we've talked about and more with real human beings to demonstrate this really does work.
我希望做的就是将我们所讨论的一切付诸实践，付诸现实世界的实践，并更多地与真实的人一起证明这确实有效。
It really does work.
它确实有效。
And I've been doing this work as a solo clinician for 30 years now, and I welcome the opportunity to begin to develop protocols and processes and use artificial intelligence to really try to create algorithms.
我作为一名独立临床医生从事这项工作已有 30 年了，我很高兴有机会开始开发协议和流程，并使用人工智能来真正尝试创建算法。
If we can do that, then, yeah, we hold the potential to help millions, if not billions of people.
如果我们能做到这一点，那么，是的，我们就有潜力帮助数百万人，甚至数十亿人。
And the theory is great, and I'm really a big fan of the theory.
这个理论很棒，我真的是这个理论的忠实粉丝。
It continues to line up.
它继续排队。
Since I've published the book, new evidence has come out just completely supporting it, and if anything, bolstering it.
自从我出版这本书以来，新的证据已经完全支持它，甚至支持它。
Putting it into actual clinical practice is really where the rubber meets the road, and as we've just talked about, there are so many things we can do for people who are suffering today, and I'm most excited about that.
将其投入实际临床实践确实是橡胶与道路相遇的地方，正如我们刚才谈到的，我们可以为今天遭受痛苦的人们做很多事情，对此我感到非常兴奋。
I'm most excited about training other clinicians and demonstrating for the world that this really works, that people can get better from severe treatment-resistant mental illnesses.
我最兴奋的是培训其他临床医生并向世界证明这确实有效，人们可以从严重的难治性精神疾病中康复。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fantastic.
太棒了。
Well, I and everyone else are super grateful for your real enthusiasm and clear devotion to that last statement.
好吧，我和其他人都非常感谢你们对最后一句话的真正热情和明确奉献。
And I'll finish today's discussion with where we started, which is to say thank you for being such a pioneer for this clearly new direction for mental health and for bridging the gap between mental health and physical health and clarifying for all of us today what you mean, what people mean when they say metabolic health.
我将以我们开始的地方结束今天的讨论，也就是说，感谢您成为心理健康这一明显新方向的先驱，感谢您弥合心理健康和身体健康之间的差距，并向我们今天所有人澄清您的意思，人们在谈论代谢健康时的含义。
We really have to think about mitochondria, what they do, the many, many roles they play in cells and are everywhere in the body, and the paths to improving mitochondrial health, lifestyle, supplement, in some cases drug-based, and the preventative care that we can take, especially for people that are thinking of conceiving children, to get their metabolic health right, but also of children, regardless of age.
我们确实必须考虑线粒体，它们的作用，它们在细胞中发挥的许多作用，以及它们在身体各处的作用，以及改善线粒体健康的途径，生活方式，补充剂（在某些情况下基于药物）以及我们可以采取的预防性护理，特别是对于那些正在考虑怀孕的人，以使其代谢健康正常，而且也包括儿童，无论年龄如何。
And also for your public health work.
也为了您的公共卫生工作。
You really put yourself out there.
你真的把自己摆在那里。
You were willing to embrace this vaccine question and did it with incredible care to all sides, and at the same time, staying really close to the data in hand and offering new questions.
你们愿意接受这个疫苗问题，并以令人难以置信的谨慎态度对待各方，同时，密切关注手头的数据并提出新问题。
So that's just as emblematic of everything you do, Chris, and it's such a pleasure and an honor to have you back again.
所以这也是你所做的一切的象征，克里斯，你再次回来真是令人高兴和荣幸。
And if people want to reach you, we'll provide portals for that.
如果人们想联系您，我们将为此提供门户。
I know there's a lot of outreach toward you.
我知道有很多人向你伸出援手。
I really also appreciate seeing you on social media, on X, and on Instagram.
我也很高兴在社交媒体、X 和 Instagram 上见到您。
It is really important that people hear from you.
人们收到您的来信非常重要。
And then what's lovely also is that as new studies come out that agree or disagree with some of the things that have been said today, you're always one to put those out there and address considerations and get people excited, but appropriately excited or cautious, but appropriately cautious.
有趣的是，随着新研究的出现，同意或不同意今天所说的一些事情，你总是要把这些研究放在那里，解决一些问题，让人们兴奋，但要适当兴奋或谨慎，但要适当谨慎。
So thanks for everything you're doing.
所以感谢你所做的一切。
Far too much to list again right now.
现在太多了，无法再次列出。
Hope to have you back again because the progress is happening so rapidly.
希望您再次回来，因为进展如此之快。
In the meantime, thanks for this incredible voyage and education for me and everyone listening.
同时，感谢这次令人难以置信的旅程以及对我和每个听众的教育。
You're doing God's work.
你正在做上帝的工作。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Thank you, Andrew, and thank you for doing everything you're doing.
谢谢你，安德鲁，感谢你所做的一切。
You're also doing God's work.
你也在做上帝的工作。
And I know that what you do is not always easy, and trying to give actual practical protocols, so to speak is really important.
我知道你所做的事情并不总是那么容易，尝试给出实际可行的协议，可以说非常重要。
And you're probably doing more for the mental health field I don't know.
我不知道你可能在心理健康领域做了更多的事情。
I'm struggling to think of who's doing more for the mental health field and the mental health of millions of people around the world than you right now.
我很难想象现在有谁比你在心理健康领域和全世界数百万人的心理健康方面做得更多。
I'm hard-pressed to think of someone.
我很难想起一个人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a collective effort of folks like you and the people that come on here.
这是像你这样的人和来到这里的人们的集体努力。
So I consider you a colleague and a comrade, for lack of a better word.
所以我认为你是同事和同志，因为没有更好的词了。
We had a Russian on here recently, so comrade in that effort.
最近我们这里有一个俄罗斯人，所以是这方面的同志。
But yeah, thanks.
但是，是的，谢谢。
I think I know how much you care, and I care, too.
我想我知道你有多关心，我也关心。
So thanks for those words.
谢谢你的这些话。
Dr. Chris Palmer:
克里斯·帕尔默博士：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Chris Palmer.
感谢您参加今天与克里斯·帕尔默博士的讨论。
To learn more about Dr. Palmer's work, including his research and his clinical practice and his absolutely spectacular book, "Brain Energy," please see the show note captions.
要了解有关帕尔默博士的工作的更多信息，包括他的研究和临床实践以及他绝对精彩的书“大脑能量”，请参阅演出注释说明。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的关注按钮来关注播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review, and you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您可以给我们留下五星级的评论，现在您可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客或嘉宾有意见，或者您希望我为 Huberman Lab 播客考虑的主题，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience, and it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这是我花了五年多时间编写的一本书，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验，涵盖了从睡眠到运动到压力控制的各个方面的方案，以及与注意力和动机相关的方案，当然，我还为所包含的方案提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There you can find links to various vendors.
在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." And if you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab。
So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。
Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
同样，所有社交媒体平台上都是 Huberman Lab。
And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.
我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。
All of that is available completely zero cost.
所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter, and enter your email.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的“菜单”选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件即可。
And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Chris Palmer.
感谢您参加今天与克里斯·帕尔默博士的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。