Transform Pain & Trauma Into Creative Expression | David Choe
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
I'm a severe gambling addict.
我是一个严重的赌博成瘾者。
Every single addiction is gambling addiction.
每一种瘾都是赌博瘾。
If you drink and drive, you're gambling.
如果你酒后驾车，你就是在赌博。
Addiction is one of those things you can't apply logic to.
成瘾是你无法应用逻辑的事情之一。
People are, "What are you running from, Dave?" It's like, well, I'm running from myself, dude.
人们会问：“戴夫，你在逃避什么？”就像，好吧，我在逃避自己，伙计。
I don't want to look in the mirror.
我不想照镜子。
I don't want to see myself.
我不想看到自己。
I hate myself.
我讨厌我自己。
So I'm just running, so as long as I'm doing graffiti, running from the police, just hopping on a train, literal running.
所以我只是在跑步，所以只要我在涂鸦，逃离警察，就跳上火车，字面意义上的跑步。
Literally running to make sure I'm never sit still for one second.
从字面上看，跑步是为了确保我一刻也不会静坐。
Like, "What are you doing, Dave?" I'm playing drums in a band.
就像，“你在做什么，戴夫？”我在乐队里打鼓。
I'm at a casino.
我在赌场。
I'm traveling, doing the news for Vice.
我正在旅行，为 Vice 做新闻。
I'm painting at this...
我正在画这个...
I can't sit still, because that means I have to sit with myself, and I can't do that.
我不能安静地坐着，因为这意味着我必须独自坐着，而我不能那样做。
I can't do that.
我不能那样做。
I couldn't do that.
我做不到。
I couldn't do that.
我做不到。
I can now.
我现在可以了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is David Choe.
今天我的嘉宾是大卫·崔。
David Choe is an artist.
大卫·崔 是一位艺术家。
He's a highly accomplished painter, graffiti and street artist, writer, podcaster, and television host.
他是一位成就卓著的画家、涂鸦和街头艺术家、作家、播客和电视主持人。
Many of you are perhaps familiar with David as the guy who famously painted the original Facebook offices, took equity for the job, and got rich.
你们中的许多人可能都熟悉大卫，他因粉刷 Facebook 原来的办公室、获得股权并致富而闻名。
Now that's a wild story, but David's whole life journey, what he did prior to and after that, and what he has overcome along the way, is a million times wilder.
这是一个疯狂的故事，但大卫的整个人生旅程，他在此之前和之后所做的事情，以及他一路上所克服的一切，都更加疯狂一百万倍。
As he shares today, David grew up hearing and thinking that he was destined for greatness, but also hearing and thinking that he was a total disgrace.
正如他今天分享的那样，大卫从小就听到并认为自己注定会取得伟大的成就，但也听到并认为自己是一个彻头彻尾的耻辱。
Today, he talks with complete openness and vulnerability about addiction, about cycles of success and failure, and about channeling and overcoming deep shame.
今天，他以完全开放和脆弱的态度谈论成瘾、成功与失败的循环，以及引导和克服深深的羞耻感。
Today's podcast is unlike any other that I've hosted.
今天的播客与我主持过的任何其他播客都不一样。
David is wide open about his childhood abuse, his massive success, then career setbacks, relapses, and transmuting every possible emotion into art along the way.
大卫对他童年时期的虐待、他的巨大成功、然后的职业挫折、旧病复发以及一路上将每一种可能的情感转化为艺术的态度持开放态度。
So, no matter who you are, David's story, and just as importantly, how he's living right now, how he shows up on this podcast, will change what you think is possible for you in life.
所以，无论你是谁，大卫的故事，同样重要的是，他现在的生活，他在这个播客上的表现，都会改变你对生活的看法。
It will force you to look inward and to use whatever joy and pain you have inside of you to be the best human being you can possibly be.
它将迫使你向内看，并利用你内心的任何快乐和痛苦来成为你可能成为的最好的人。
David Choe is, as we say in science, an N of one, meaning there is no other like him.
正如我们在科学中所说的那样，大卫·崔（David Choe）是“N”之一，这意味着没有人能像他一样。
Yes, because of his incredible art, but also for his willingness to share so openly and honestly so that others can benefit and grow.
是的，因为他令人难以置信的艺术，也因为他愿意如此公开和诚实地分享，以便其他人能够受益和成长。
I consider it a true honor and privilege to host David on this podcast, and frankly, it's impossible not to love him.
我认为在这个播客中主持大卫是一种真正的荣幸和荣幸，坦率地说，不可能不爱他。
This one is incredibly raw and honest.
这是令人难以置信的原始和诚实。
It's also full of surprises, many of which are fun surprises.
它还充满了惊喜，其中很多都是有趣的惊喜。
So buckle up.
所以系好安全带。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.
为了与这个主题保持一致，今天的节目确实有赞助商。
And now for my discussion with David Choe.
现在我与 David Choe 进行讨论。
David Choe.
大卫·崔.
Welcome.
欢迎。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Thank you for having me, man.
谢谢你有我，伙计。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Man, huge longtime fan.
伙计，忠实的长期粉丝。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Love your art.
热爱你的艺术。
I've been super inspired by your YouTube channel.
您的 YouTube 频道给我很大启发。
I watch it sometimes before I do my drawing or I prepare for a podcast.
有时我会在绘画或准备播客之前观看它。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
What do you draw?
你画什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I draw a lot of anatomy on top of some paintings.
我在一些画作的基础上画了很多解剖学。
So I do neuroanatomy on top of some paintings that my friend Tim Armstrong's been doing.
因此，我在我的朋友蒂姆·阿姆斯特朗（Tim Armstrong）所做的一些画作的基础上进行了神经解剖学研究。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A musician, lead singer of Rancid.
音乐家，Rancid乐队主唱。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Is it anatomically correct, or is it exaggerated, or is it-
它在解剖学上是正确的，还是夸张的，或者是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is a really good question.
这是一个非常好的问题。
So, in essence, it's anatomically correct.
所以，本质上，它在解剖学上是正确的。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But around the turn of the last century-
但在上世纪初——
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
two guys, Cajal and Golgi, won the Nobel Prize-
卡哈尔和高尔基两个人获得了诺贝尔奖——
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for drawing the nervous system and showing these things no one had seen before, and they stripped away everything except-
为了绘制神经系统并展示这些以前没有人见过的东西，他们剥夺了一切，除了——
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
I'm going to come paint with you
我要和你一起去画画
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the essential piece.
必不可少的部分。
So-
所以——
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
I'm going to come paint with you.
我要和你一起去画画。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
I don't like what's happening in your painting studio.
我不喜欢你们画室里发生的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Just from what you said so far, it's not good.
就你目前所说的情况来看，情况不太好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
But it's good because you did that, and then now we have to strip that away.
但这很好，因为你这么做了，现在我们必须把它去掉。
We have to get at the core of it.
我们必须抓住它的核心。
Because painting is...
因为绘画是...
Wait, weren't you in the middle of complimenting me?
等等，你刚才不是在夸我吗？
Like, keep going.
就像，继续前进。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean- ...
我的意思是——...
I love your YouTube channel.
我喜欢你的 YouTube 频道。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Oh, keep going.
哦，继续吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I watch it before I prepare podcasts and before I paint or draw.
我在准备播客之前以及绘画之前都会观看它。
And I'm back to drawing a lot now.
现在我又开始画很多画了。
And I converted an art gallery into a living space, and somehow I thought that that would make me more inspired, but it turns out it does.
我把一个艺术画廊变成了一个生活空间，不知怎的，我认为这会让我更有灵感，但事实证明确实如此。
A lot of things do, but I think the key with anatomy and trying to teach science with drawings is it can't be too much detail, can't be too little detail, otherwise people are overwhelmed.
很多事情都是如此，但我认为解剖学和尝试用绘图教授科学的关键是它不能太多细节，不能太少细节，否则人们会不知所措。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
It's the best thing for, I think everyone, but for someone like you who spends a lot of time in your head, I always say the longest journey you'll ever take in your life is from your head to your heart.
我认为这对每个人来说都是最好的事情，但对于像你这样花了很多时间在头脑中的人来说，我总是说你一生中最长的旅程是从你的头脑到你的心灵。
And to be an intellectual person, you just live a lot.
要成为一个有知识的人，你只需活得很多。
You try to rationalize and apply logic to everything, so painting is not that, music is not that, creating is not that.
你试图将一切合理化并应用逻辑，所以绘画不是那样，音乐不是那样，创作不是那样。
It's just to get to this.
只是为了达到这个目的。
But it sounds, just in the little that you've explained, that your painting is very methodical, and which-
但听起来，就你所解释的一点点来看，你的画很有条理，而且——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Super meticulous.
超级细致。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah.
是的。
We're going to-
我们要去-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I want to include every cell type.
我想包括每种细胞类型。
Yeah.
是的。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
What's your threshold for positive affirmations?
你积极肯定的门槛是多少？
Can I go now?
我现在可以走了吗？
Like you-
像你一样——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean-
我的意思是——
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
All right
好吧
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I like to think I have a thick skin, but-
我喜欢认为自己脸皮厚，但是——
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
All right.
好吧。
Let's go
我们走吧
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
who knows?
谁知道？
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
No, it's all love.
不，这都是爱。
Okay.
好的。
For anyone who's watching or listening, this is my first time meeting Adam.
对于所有观看或聆听的人来说，这是我第一次见到亚当。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Andrew.
安德鲁.
All good?
一切都好吗？
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
There you go.
就这样吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
All good.
一切都好。
All good.
一切都好。
You knew my last name.
你知道我的姓氏。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
You know what?
你知道吗？
I was thinking about my friend Adam-
我在想我的朋友亚当——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All good
一切都好
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
...
...
that you know, that you used to skate with, I think.
我想，你知道，你曾经用来滑冰的。
Adam Kron?
亚当·克朗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah.
是的。
I was just thinking like, oh, I-
我只是想，哦，我-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Upper Playground.
上游乐场。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah, Upper Playground.
是的，上游乐场。
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
His dad owns Kron Shoes.
他的父亲拥有 Kron Shoes。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In Palo Alto.
在帕洛阿尔托。
He worked there
他在那里工作
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
He wants to reconnect with you.
他想和你重新联系。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Man.
伙计。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Adam Cron and I grew up together.
亚当·克朗和我一起长大。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah.
是的。
I was just-
我只是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He had a mini ramp in his backyard.
他的后院有一个迷你坡道。
We hung out, we skateboarded, and then he started Upper Playground, The Walrus.
我们出去玩，玩滑板，然后他创办了 Upper Playground，The Walrus。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
That's it.
就是这样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He's your homie?
他是你的哥们吗？
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
I did tons of graphics for Upper Playground.
我为 Upper Playground 制作了大量的图形。
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow!
哇！
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Does anyone call you Andy?
有人叫你安迪吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My skateboard friends call me Andy, so yeah.
我的滑板朋友都叫我安迪，所以是的。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
But that's it?
但仅此而已？
No one in the medical, like science world-
医学界、科学界没有人——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not anymore.
不再是了。
No, not really.
不，不是真的。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
You start your podcast, and you do your, you're like, "I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a-"
你开始播客，然后开始播客，你会说，“我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，我是——”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"I'm Andrew Huberman, professor." Yep.
“我是安德鲁·休伯曼，教授。”是的。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
I'm going to be all over the place because I'm nervous being here right now.
我会到处乱跑，因为我现在在这里很紧张。
I hardly do podcasts anymore, so I'm going to be all over the place.
我几乎不再做播客了，所以我会到处去。
It's going to be sloppy.
会变得马虎。
All right.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is your canvas, man.
这是你的画布，伙计。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Have fun.
玩得开心。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Well, I'm just meeting you.
嗯，我只是遇见你而已。
I already called you the wrong name, which is horrible.
我已经叫错你的名字了，这太可怕了。
I hate the black.
我讨厌黑色。
I hate it.
我恨它。
Like-
就像-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The studio?
工作室？
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Just you with the black T-shirt, the black mugs, the black like...
只有你穿着黑色T恤、黑色杯子、黑色的……
I don't like it for you.
我不喜欢你这样。
Because I used to only wear black because I was like, "Oh, I'm a painter.
因为我以前只穿黑色衣服，因为我想，“哦，我是一名画家。
I'm always dirty.
我总是很脏。
I don't want to like..." You could see the ketchup stains on my sweater, and it's like, okay, that's fine.
我不想……”你可以看到我毛衣上的番茄酱污渍，就好像，好吧，没关系。
But I just, colors are very important in not just painting, but like the palette for your house or most people talk about in the modern age, modern man is, and I just make shit up, so you could correct.
但我只是，颜色不仅在绘画中非常重要，而且就像你房子的调色板或大多数人在现代谈论的那样，现代人也是如此，我只是胡编乱造，所以你可以纠正。
You're like the facts guy.
你就像一个讲事实的人。
But I feel like most people, human beings alive today are going to die a very, it's mean to say boring, but just the same death, right?
但我觉得大多数人，今天活着的人类都会死去，这意味着很无聊，但只是同样的死亡，对吧？
You'll most likely die laying down in a bed or hospice or in a hospital.
您很可能会躺在床上、临终关怀中心或医院里死去。
But it's just like no one's dying like, I know there's other countries where there's war and famine, but I'm saying modern cities, there's not like a hero's death, right?
但这就像没有人死去一样，我知道其他国家也有战争和饥荒，但我说的是现代城市，不会有英雄的死亡，对吧？
So it's all the same, and then you just, the drive here in traffic, it's like everyone either has a black car or a white car or a gray car.
所以一切都是一样的，然后你只是，在交通中开车，就像每个人都有一辆黑色汽车或一辆白色汽车或一辆灰色汽车。
And then you get to their house, and their house is a beige or a white, and you're just like, "We only got one of these." Whatever your views on the afterlife are, but this is it.
然后你到了他们的房子，他们的房子是米色或白色的，你就像，“我们只有其中之一。”无论你对来世有何看法，但这就是了。
This is it.
就是这样。
Like this is it.
就这样吧。
And it's just like people get mad of like, "Oh, I spilled paint on the floor.
就像人们会生气一样，“哦，我把油漆洒在地板上了。
Like I got a scratch." I'm like, "Paint everything.
就像我被抓伤了一样。”我想，“把一切都画出来。
Paint your fucking car.
给你他妈的车喷漆。
Paint and make your..." My kids drew my sweater.
画画并制作你的……”我的孩子们画了我的毛衣。
It's my favorite s-
这是我最喜欢的-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I like that sweater
我喜欢那件毛衣
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
...
...
paint.
油漆。
So I walk in here, and I go, "Fuck, dude." Like, and I'm projecting on you now, like when I wore all black, it said a lot about where I was at in my life, and I don't know where you're at because I'm just meeting you, but it's like everything is black on black, like black on the black T-shirt, black mug, black, and it's like white T-shirt.
所以我走进这里，然后说：“操，伙计。”就像，我现在投射在你身上，就像当我穿全黑的时候，它说了很多关于我生活中的情况，我不知道你在哪里，因为我刚刚遇见你，但这就像一切都是黑底黑字，就像黑色T恤上的黑色，黑色杯子，黑色，就像白色T恤一样。
For my dream, selfishly my dream is like this podcast would start instead of saying, "Hey, I'm Andrew Huberman, like Stanford scientist," that it's just, "Hi, I'm Andy." And then like can you Photoshop like a white T-shirt on?
为了我的梦想，自私地我的梦想就像这个播客开始而不是说，“嘿，我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，就像斯坦福大学的科学家一样”，而只是“嗨，我是安迪”。然后你可以用 Photoshop 像白色 T 恤一样吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd wear a white T-shirt.
我会穿一件白色T恤。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
I don't know.
我不知道。
I don't like black.
我不喜欢黑色。
For me, I have hardly ever black clothes anymore.
对我来说，我几乎不再穿黑色衣服了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
I want to add as much color because I just, maybe that's the season I am in my life or the time I'm in.
我想添加尽可能多的色彩，因为我只是，也许这就是我生命中的季节或我所处的时间。
But, yeah, I appreciate you saying the nice stuff.
但是，是的，我很欣赏你说的好话。
I never thought I would be a YouTuber, but that's providing a lot of joy in my life.
我从没想过我会成为一名 YouTuber，但这给我的生活带来了很多乐趣。
And so I want to say to you, I'm meeting you for the first time.
所以我想对你说，我是第一次见到你。
I've never seen you clean-shaven.
我从来没见过你把胡子刮干净。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
But I imagine, your beard and facial hair to me look very cute.
但我想，你的胡子和胡须对我来说看起来很可爱。
You're very handsome.
你很帅。
Your voice, when I hear your voice, immediately is soothing, and I feel like this is a very kind person.
你的声音，当我听到你的声音的时候，立刻就让人心旷神怡，我感觉这是一个非常善良的人。
Once again, without having, like now I've met you for five minutes, I'm like, "Oh, this guy's super awesome " But these kind of parasocial relationships where I could go even, I don't know how hard you want to go today, but it's like I meet people all the time, and then I meet them, and it's like I've already met you.
再一次，没有，就像现在我已经见到你五分钟一样，我想，“哦，这家伙超级棒”但是我什至可以去这种准社会关系，我不知道你今天想有多努力，但就像我一直在遇见人，然后我遇见他们，就像我已经遇见你一样。
Like we've already talked.
就像我们已经谈过一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
I don't know what your views on telepathy and spirituality, and it's like, it's just everyone will meet.
我不知道你对心灵感应和灵性有什么看法，就像，这只是每个人都会遇到的。
Everything's going to happen the way it's going to happen, and everyone's going to meet who they need to meet.
一切都会按照它该发生的方式发生，每个人都会遇到他们需要遇到的人。
It's like all energy, right?
就像所有的能量一样，对吧？
You put this like, what?
你这样说，什么？
I could sit there and go, "Why does Andrew Huberman want to meet me right now?" And it's like, well, what am I putting out in the universe?
我可以坐在那里问：“为什么安德鲁·胡伯曼现在想见我？”就像，好吧，我要在宇宙中放出什么？
And what is he putting out in the universe?
他在宇宙中放出了什么？
And do the souls connect in that way?
灵魂是否以这种方式联系在一起？
So I said, if I ever meet him, I just want to tell him how cute he is, how soothing and relaxing, and like, there's something very, this is the invisible ingredient in like everything.
所以我说，如果我见到他，我只想告诉他他是多么可爱，多么舒缓和放松，就像，有一些非常，这是一切事物中看不见的成分。
In art is did the person care, right?
在艺术中，人关心的是吗？
I don't care how skilled and crafted, whatever.
我不在乎多么熟练和精巧，无论如何。
Did the person care?
这个人关心吗？
And when you do stuff, in your voice, the tone, the frequency that's hitting my soul is like, oh, I don't know everything that guy's saying.
当你做事的时候，你的声音、语气、频率都会击中我的灵魂，就像，哦，我不知道那个人说的一切。
He's using some big words, but I feel like he cares.
他用了一些大话，但我感觉他很关心。
And so I said if I ever meet you, and I know a little bit from us talking on the phone, but I don't know your whole backstory, but I'm like, also, I project a lot, and I make a lot of assumptions, which that's a defect that I'm working on.
所以我说，如果我见过你，我从我们在电话中交谈中知道了一些，但我不知道你的整个背景故事，但我也想，我计划了很多，我做了很多假设，这是我正在努力解决的一个缺陷。
But I just wanted to say, even though you had a horrific, traumatic childhood, the fact that you're here, you're alive, and that you're doing all this good stuff, it makes me emotional because I'm like, I don't even know you, and I appreciate what you're doing.
但我只是想说，尽管你有一个可怕的、创伤性的童年，但事实上你在这里，你还活着，你正在做所有这些好事，这让我很激动，因为我想，我什至不认识你，但我很欣赏你所做的事情。
And you're still a little bit immature, but progress, not perfection, right?
而且你还有点不成熟，但是进步，不是完美，对吧？
I think that's it for now, but I just wanted to tell you all that because I feel that way about you and I'm a big...
我想现在就这样了，但我只是想告诉你这一切，因为我对你有这种感觉，而且我是一个大......
Sometimes you feel stuff and you're like, "I'll text it to them," and I just go, no, if I feel that, I just want to, especially if it's love and positivity.
有时你有某种感觉，你会说，“我会给他们发短信”，然后我就说，不，如果我有这种感觉，我只是想这么做，尤其是如果它是爱和积极性的话。
I know I started by telling you how much I hate your decor and your interior decorating, but it's because I like you.
我知道我一开始就告诉你我有多么讨厌你的装饰和室内装饰，但那是因为我喜欢你。
If I'm like, "I don't give a shit about this guy and I don't want a relationship," I would never say anything.
如果我说，“我不在乎这个人，我不想建立关系”，我永远不会说什么。
But I'm like, I don't know what the science behind it is, but being surrounded by this much black cannot be good.
但我想，我不知道它背后的科学原理是什么，但被这么多黑色包围并不好。
Right?
正确的？
We're walking into a black hole right now.
我们现在正在走进一个黑洞。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Anyways, that's what I wanted to say.
无论如何，这就是我想说的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, man.
哦，伙计。
Well, I'll take that in.
好吧，我会接受的。
Thank you.
谢谢你。
A lot there.
那里有很多。
Thank you.
谢谢。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Were you able to take it in?
你能接受它吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I was able to take in some of that.
是的，我能够接受其中的一些。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
All right.
好吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's interesting, when you call me Andy, it's a different part of my persona, just because names carry a lot.
有趣的是，当你叫我安迪时，这是我性格的不同部分，只是因为名字承载了很多东西。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for that.
谢谢你。
I'm going to take that in and I get this little voice in my head that's saying, "I want to be very clear." I had some rough aspects of my childhood.
我会接受这一点，然后我的脑海里就会有一个小声音在说：“我想说得非常清楚。”我的童年有一些坎坷的经历。
I've made good amends with my parents, so we're good now.
我和父母已经和好了，所以我们现在关系很好了。
I say that for all the reasons people can assume.
我这么说是出于人们可以想象的各种原因。
But here's the thing.
但事情是这样的。
I knew somehow that we'd eventually cross paths.
不知怎的，我知道我们最终会相遇。
I just didn't know when.
我只是不知道什么时候。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you say the telepathy thing.
所以你说的是心灵感应的事。
For me, I was a postdoc at Stanford.
对我来说，我是斯坦福大学的博士后。
That comes after PhD.
那是在博士学位之后。
You do five years.
你干五年。
It's kind of like a residency.
这有点像居住权。
And I'm from the South Bay.
我来自南湾。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I didn't want to go back to the South Bay because, as you know, no disrespect to the South Bay, a lot of interesting things come out of there, but it was pretty devoid of the things that I like-
我不想回到南湾，因为，如你所知，我没有对南湾的不尊重，那里有很多有趣的东西，但那里几乎没有我喜欢的东西——
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which normally are in cities, like art, live music.
通常发生在城市，比如艺术、现场音乐。
It used to be like that.
过去是这样的。
Grateful Dead were in Palo Alto.
感恩而死乐队 (Grateful Dead) 在帕洛阿尔托举行。
I saw Fugazi play at The Edge on California Avenue.
我在加州大道的 The Edge 看过 Fugazi 演奏。
There was a lot of interesting things about Palo Alto, but it became very right angles when the tech industry really exploded there.
帕洛阿尔托有很多有趣的事情，但当科技产业真正在那里爆炸时，它就变得非常直角。
And in 2007, when I was a postdoc-
2007 年，当我还是一名博士后时——
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
was when you were muraling at Facebook.
是你在 Facebook 创作壁画的时候。
I learned that later.
我是后来才知道的。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But that was a time when I was back there for my science career, and I was pretty miserable.
但那是我回到那里从事科学事业的时候，我非常痛苦。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Being close to home again, honestly, I didn't want to ever go back there for a while.
再次离家很近，老实说，我有一段时间不想回去了。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was not healing.
它没有治愈。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But when I learned your story about muraling at Facebook and some of that, I was like, oh, there was at least one other person here who was-
但当我了解到你关于 Facebook 壁画的故事以及其中的一些故事时，我就想，哦，这里至少还有一个人——
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the kind of spiritual, emotional fight with what the South Bay is.
在与南湾的精神和情感斗争中。
And then I realized that I heard an interview with Ian MacKaye from Minor Threat.
然后我意识到我听到了《轻微威胁》对伊恩·麦凯的采访。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It turns out he had been in Palo Alto because his dad was an academic or something like that.
事实证明，他之所以来到帕洛阿尔托，是因为他的父亲是一名学者或类似的人。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Of course.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And he had skated some of the same ditches we had.
他也曾滑过一些与我们相同的沟渠。
And so there's a history of-
所以有一段历史——
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
people being really frustrated with being there.
人们对在那里感到非常沮丧。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
There's some really good Vietnamese food.
有一些非常好的越南菜。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is there really?
真的有吗？
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, in Palo Alto?
哦，在帕洛阿尔托？
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or the South Bay.
或者南湾。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah, South Bay.
对啊，南湾。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Castro Street, Mountain View.
卡斯特罗街，山景。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And it's changed a lot, but take me back to 2007.
现在已经发生了很大的变化，让我回到 2007 年。
I don't know how you feel about historical stuff.
不知道大家对于历史事件有什么看法呢？
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Okay.
好的。
I'm definitely down to time travel and time jump and all that.
我绝对热衷于时间旅行和时间跳跃等等。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
But because I'm older, I'm 49 and my attention span is just completely fried, I'll just say right now I'm going to get a lot of dates wrong.
但因为我年纪大了，我已经 49 岁了，而且我的注意力完全耗尽了，所以我只能说现在我会弄错很多日期。
People are like, "That's..."
人们会说：“那是……”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
2007 was when the Facebook offices were what kids from the South Bay call the neck of University Avenue.
2007 年，Facebook 办公室被南湾的孩子们称为大学大道的脖子。
Right before it goes under the train tracks.
就在它进入铁轨下方之前。
As soon as you're on the other side of the train tracks, Caltrain-
一旦你到达铁轨的另一边，加州火车-
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it becomes Palm Drive and it's up to Stanford.
它变成了 Palm Drive，这取决于斯坦福大学。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So those offices now are Palantir-
所以现在那些办公室是 Palantir-
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which catches a lot of heat for other reasons.
由于其他原因会产生大量热量。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But those offices, right as you go under the train tracks, for us, there was a curb cut right there and there was a board slide thing.
但是那些办公室，就在你走到铁轨下面时，对我们来说，那里有一个路边切口，还有一个滑梯。
And so for the skateboarders, it was one thing, but then that was Facebook offices.
所以对于滑板爱好者来说，这是一回事，但那就是 Facebook 办公室了。
And years later I heard David Choe-
多年后我听到大卫·崔——
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Uh-huh
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
was muraling at Facebook.
在 Facebook 上画壁画。
So how did that come to be?
那么这是怎么发生的呢？
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
I'm going to be very sloppy, like I said, and it's maybe some of the stuff, because sometimes the way I treat talking and journalism and podcasts is it's like a story in my own head.
正如我所说，我会变得非常草率，这可能是其中的一部分，因为有时我对待谈话、新闻和播客的方式就像是我自己脑海中的故事。
Someone else is like, "Just shut the fuck up and answer the question," right?
其他人会说，“闭嘴，回答问题吧”，对吧？
But for me, when I paint, I don't sketch.
但对我来说，当我绘画时，我不是素描。
I go straight to a finish.
我直接走到终点。
So sometimes I'm figuring out what I'm trying to tell you because you asked me a question that's very direct, but the way it went into my head was very abstract.
所以有时我正在弄清楚我想告诉你什么，因为你问了我一个非常直接的问题，但它进入我脑海的方式却非常抽象。
So, if you let me do a little paint mixing, I hope I'll answer your question.
所以，如果你让我做一点油漆混合，我希望我能回答你的问题。
But do you know Pee-Wee...
但你知道皮威吗...
I'm wearing it today.
我今天就穿着它。
Do you know Pee-Wee's Playhouse?
你知道皮威剧场吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I knew it.
我知道。
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
You-
你——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, obviously.
我的意思是，显然。
Yeah.
是的。
I met him, actually, once.
事实上，我见过他一次。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Paul Reubens?
保罗·鲁本斯？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
At a photo show of Mike Muller and Sage, who draws butterflies on Mike Muller's sharks and animals.
在迈克·穆勒 (Mike Muller) 和塞奇 (Sage) 的摄影展上，塞奇在迈克·穆勒 (Mike Muller) 的鲨鱼和动物身上画了蝴蝶。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And Pee-Wee Herman in his thing-
还有皮威·赫尔曼（Pee-Wee Herman）在他的东西里——
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in his suit, the whole thing-
穿着他的西装，整个事情——
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
walked up.
走上来。
Laird Hamilton was there.
莱尔德·汉密尔顿也在场。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Nice.
不错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And he walks up to Laird Hamilton.
他走向莱尔德·汉密尔顿。
There are a bunch of people around.
周围有一群人。
Everyone's trying to get to Laird, trying to talk to Laird.
每个人都试图联系莱尔德，试图与莱尔德交谈。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Laird's like a...
莱尔德就像一个...
This was 2017, and I was in West Hollywood.
那是 2017 年，我在西好莱坞。
And Pee-Wee Herman walks up and he goes, "I have to meet you." And the best thing is Laird just goes, "Oh, hello.
皮威·赫尔曼走过来，说道：“我必须见见你。”最棒的是莱尔德只是说：“哦，你好。
What's your name?" Like typical Laird.
你叫什么名字？”就像典型的莱尔德一样。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Laird's a real gentleman.
莱尔德是一位真正的绅士。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Always.
总是。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
He didn't know who Pee-Wee Herman was?
他不知道皮威·赫尔曼是谁？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I couldn't tell if he knew or not.
我不知道他是否知道。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Oh, my God.
哦，天啊。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And he's like, "I've really wanted to meet you," this kind of thing.
他会说，“我真的很想见见你”之类的话。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I was like, "No way." And he had the whole thing, like the shiny lips and the thing.
我当时想，“不可能。”他拥有一切，比如闪亮的嘴唇之类的。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I was like, "That's Pee-Wee Herman."
我当时想，“那是皮威·赫尔曼。”
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Oh, that's amazing.
哦，太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
I love that.
我喜欢那个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
All right.
好吧。
Well, I'm definitely going to have to tell you my Pee-Wee Herman story at some point.
好吧，我肯定会在某个时候告诉你我的皮威·赫尔曼的故事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Eight Sleep.
我想稍微休息一下，并向我们的赞助商“八睡”表示感谢。
Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep-tracking capacity.
八睡眠公司生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。
One of the best ways to ensure you get a great night's sleep is to make sure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct.
确保您睡个好觉的最佳方法之一是确保睡眠环境的温度正确。
And that's because in order to fall asleep and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees.
这是因为为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，您的体温实际上必须下降约一到三度。
And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees.
为了醒来时感觉神清气爽、精力充沛，您的体温实际上必须升高约一到三度。
Eight Sleep automatically regulates the temperature of your bed throughout the night according to your unique needs.
八睡眠会根据您的独特需求自动调节整个晚上的床温。
I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for nearly five years now, and it has completely transformed and improved the quality of my sleep.
我已经睡在八睡眠床垫罩上近五年了，它彻底改变并改善了我的睡眠质量。
The latest Eight Sleep model is the Pod 5.
最新的八睡眠型号是 Pod 5。
This is what I'm now sleeping on, and I absolutely love it.
这就是我现在睡觉的地方，我非常喜欢它。
It has so many incredible features.
它有很多令人难以置信的功能。
For instance, the Pod 5 has a feature called Autopilot, which is an AI engine that learns your sleep patterns and then adjusts the temperature of your sleeping environment across different sleep stages.
例如，Pod 5有一个名为Autopilot的功能，这是一个人工智能引擎，可以学习你的睡眠模式，然后在不同的睡眠阶段调整你的睡眠环境温度。
It'll even elevate your head if you're snoring, and it makes other shifts to optimize your sleep.
如果您打鼾，它甚至会抬高您的头部，并进行其他转换以优化您的睡眠。
If you would like to try Eight Sleep, go to eightsleep.com/huberman to get $450 off the Pod 5 Ultra.
如果您想尝试八睡眠，请访问八睡眠.com/huberman，Pod 5 Ultra 可享受 450 美元优惠。
This is part of Eight Sleep's extended holiday sale, which goes from now until December 31st, 2025.
这是Eight Sleep 延长假期促销的一部分，促销期从即日起至 2025 年 12 月 31 日。
Eight Sleep ships to many countries worldwide, including Mexico and the UAE.
八号睡眠船运往世界各地的许多国家，包括墨西哥和阿联酋。
Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $450 now through December 31st, 2025.
同样，从现在到 2025 年 12 月 31 日，八睡眠.com/huberman 最多可节省 450 美元。
Today's episode is also brought to us by LMNT.
今天的节目也是LMNT给我们带来的。
LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't.
LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您需要的一切，没有您不需要的东西。
That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in the correct ratios, but no sugar.
这意味着电解质、钠、镁和钾的比例都正确，但不含糖。
Proper hydration is critical for brain and body function.
适当的水合作用对于大脑和身体功能至关重要。
Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish your cognitive and physical performance.
即使是轻微程度的脱水也会降低您的认知和身体表现。
It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes.
获得充足的电解质也很重要。
The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, are vital for the functioning of all cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells.
电解质（钠、镁和钾）对于体内所有细胞（尤其是神经元或神经细胞）的功能至关重要。
Drinking LMNT makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes.
饮用 LMNT 可以轻松确保您获得足够的水分和电解质。
My days tend to start really fast, meaning I have to jump right into work or right into exercise.
我的日子往往开始得很快，这意味着我必须立即投入工作或立即锻炼。
So to make sure that I'm hydrated and I have sufficient electrolytes, when I first wake up in the morning, I drink 16 to 32 ounces of water with an LMNT packet dissolved in it.
因此，为了确保我有足够的水分和足够的电解质，当我早上第一次醒来时，我会喝 16 至 32 盎司的水，其中溶解有 LMNT 包。
I also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes.
我还会在进行任何体育锻炼时饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT，尤其是在炎热的日子里，当我大量出汗并失去水和电解质时。
LMNT has a bunch of great-tasting flavors.
LMNT 有很多美味的口味。
In fact, I love them all.
事实上，我爱他们所有人。
I love the watermelon, the raspberry, the citrus, and I really love the lemonade flavor.
我喜欢西瓜、覆盆子、柑橘，而且我真的很喜欢柠檬水的味道。
So if you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with any purchase.
因此，如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman，购买任意商品即可领取免费的 LMNT 样品包。
Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.
再次强调，请访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman 索取免费样品包。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
For me, art as a kid growing up, like the trifecta, my Holy Trinity of children's education art entertainment is Mr. Rogers, Bob Ross, and then of course, Pee-wee Herman.
对我来说，艺术就像一个孩子成长过程中的三连胜，我的儿童教育艺术娱乐三位一体是罗杰斯先生、鲍勃·罗斯，当然还有皮威·赫尔曼。
Pee-wee Herman had Lawrence Fishburne, Gary Panter, Mark Mothersbaugh, Danny Elfman.
皮威·赫尔曼有劳伦斯·菲什伯恩、加里·潘特、马克·马瑟斯博、丹尼·艾夫曼。
He was like the ringleader of all this creativity, and he had like, "Mecka leka hi, mecka hiney ho." And do you remember the secret word?
他就像所有这些创造力的领头羊，他就像，“Mecka leka hi，mecka hiney ho。”你还记得那个秘密词吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh.
哦。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
The secret word was like, if anyone our age that's watching Pee-wee's Playhouse.
秘密的话就像，如果我们这个年纪的人正在看《皮威剧场》。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What was it?
那是什么？
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
It was like, "Today's secret word is..." I don't know.
就像是，“今天的秘密词是……”我不知道。
What's our secret word today, Rob?
今天我们的秘密是什么，罗布？
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
Microphone.
麦克风。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Microphone.
麦克风。
And if someone says microphone, scream real loud.
如果有人说麦克风，请大声尖叫。
So can we do that today?
那么我们今天可以这样做吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
All right.
好吧。
I'm counting on you.
我指望你了。
I want you to scream the loudest.
我希望你尖叫得最大声。
And you don't take a pee until we take a pee.
在我们撒尿之前你不能撒尿。
We got an agreement on that?
我们对此达成一致了吗？
Okay.
好的。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
Fine.
很好。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
All right.
好吧。
I hated the South Bay.
我讨厌南湾。
I have all the typical artist traits.
我拥有所有典型的艺术家特质。
I'm clinically depressed.
我在临床上患有抑郁症。
I'm bipolar.
我是双向情感障碍者。
I have all the process addictions, food, sex, gambling, shopping, workaholism.
我有所有的过程成瘾，食物、性、赌博、购物、工作狂。
Thank God I don't have any of the chemical addictions because I'm allergic to everything, but severe OCD, severe antisocial traits.
感谢上帝，我没有任何化学成瘾，因为我对一切都过敏，但有严重的强迫症，严重的反社会特征。
I'm just highly sensitive.
我只是高度敏感。
So coming here today, you asked me, and I kept text...
所以今天来到这里，你问我，我一直发短信……
I don't know.
我不知道。
We did this dance for a few months, and if I'm just being honest with you, I don't know how to not be me.
我们跳这支舞已经几个月了，老实说，我不知道如何才能不成为我自己。
And sometimes I put a mask on, and I'm like, I think this is what Andrew wants me to be today, but I didn't even meet you yet.
有时我会戴上面具，我想这就是安德鲁今天希望我成为的样子，但我什至还没有见到你。
And so every time I've done Joe Rogan or any other podcast, I don't know, I just feel comfortable doing my own YouTube or my own podcast.
所以每次我做 Joe Rogan 或任何其他播客时，我不知道，我只是觉得做我自己的 YouTube 或我自己的播客很舒服。
But anytime anyone else asks me, I know who I am, and sometimes I don't, and sometimes I figure that out.
但每当其他人问我时，我都知道我是谁，有时我不知道，有时我会弄清楚。
And sometimes you meet people on the street at pavilions or at the supermarket, and they're like, "I..." And it's like this parasocial thing where it's like, "I know you.
有时你在街上的展馆或超市遇到人们，他们会说，“我……”这就像这种超社会的东西，“我认识你。
I relate to you." And there's something about that where the intimacy of meeting another human being and then just showing them your heart and then telling them everything, and my parents aren't going to listen to this.
我和你有关系。”与另一个人见面的亲密感，然后只是向他们展示你的心，然后告诉他们一切，而我的父母不会听这些。
My brothers don't listen to it.
我的兄弟们不听。
So in a weird way, you're going to know more about me today than my own family.
因此，以一种奇怪的方式，今天你对我的了解将会比我自己的家人还要多。
So the parasocial thing is even, it's real, right?
所以准社会的东西是均匀的，它是真实的，对吗？
Placebo effect is real, all these things.
安慰剂效应是真实的，所有这些事情。
So I got here early I went for a walk down to that street, and then it's just this beautiful view of the ocean, and it happens every time.
所以我很早就到了这里，沿着那条街散步，然后就看到了美丽的海景，而且每次都会发生这种情况。
I know what it makes me sound like.
我知道这让我听起来像什么。
It's like, "Oh, this guy's very unstable and unhinged," and I'd be the first to admit it.
就像，“哦，这家伙非常不稳定和精神错乱”，我是第一个承认这一点的人。
It's like I cry all the time now.
就像我现在一直在哭一样。
It was just like maybe just seeing all the burned houses on the way here, just knowing that I haven't talked in a long time, and there's no upside for me.
就像也许只是在来这里的路上看到所有被烧毁的房子，只是知道我已经很长时间没有说话了，对我来说没有任何好处。
And I told you that.
我告诉过你了。
I was like, I go on these podcasts and I think Howard Stern, like 15, 20 years ago, and Joe Rogan, the multiple times I've been on his show, I think are the only two radio shows/podcasts that have ever just aired it without editing.
我当时想，我继续听这些播客，我认为霍华德·斯特恩（Howard Stern），就像 15、20 年前一样，还有乔·罗根（Joe Rogan），我多次参加他的节目，我认为是唯一两个未经编辑就播出的广播节目/播客。
Everyone else, every time you've ever heard me on any other podcast, it's either severely edited, or they cut out huge chunks of it, or they didn't even air it at all.
其他人，每次你在任何其他播客上听到我的声音时，它要么被严格编辑，要么被剪掉很大一部分，要么根本就没有播出。
So I know that, and I know the world we live in today.
所以我知道这一点，我也知道我们今天生活的世界。
And so there's something that went in the narcissistic traits where I'm like, "I'm the fucking greatest artist in the world," to like, "Oh my God, I'm a piece of shit." It's just like this thing and before when I was younger, it was like everyone has to see everything.
所以我的自恋特质里有一些东西，我会说，“我他妈的是世界上最伟大的艺术家”，然后又会说，“天哪，我就是一坨屎。”就像这件事一样，以前我年轻的时候，好像每个人都必须看到一切。
I think I'm so important that everyone has to see everything that I create, painting, podcast, book, whatever it is.
我认为我是如此重要，以至于每个人都必须看到我创作的一切，绘画、播客、书籍，无论是什么。
And then it went my problem with my shit is it's all or nothing, so it's hard for me to find the middle.
然后我的问题就变成了要么全有要么全无，所以我很难找到中间点。
And so at this point now, I'm 49.
现在，我已经 49 岁了。
I live a very quiet dad life.
我过着非常安静的爸爸生活。
I'm a family guy.
我是一个顾家的人。
And there's just thousands of paintings no one's ever seen.
而且只有数千幅没人见过的画作。
There's hundreds of hours, if not thousands of hours of podcasts I've never put out.
我从未发布过数百小时甚至数千小时的播客。
There's books I've written.
有我写过的书。
There's TV shows, movies that I've made.
有我制作的电视节目、电影。
Before, the ego and the narc is like, "You need to put this out because you're important, and everyone needs to see how important you are." And now, the flip side to that is, and maybe it's not healthy either, is I know who I am.
以前，自我和缉毒人员就像是，“你需要把这件事说出来，因为你很重要，每个人都需要看到你有多重要。”现在，另一面是，也许这也不健康，是我知道我是谁。
I'm comfortable with myself, and I'm artificially blocked from everything.
我对自己很满意，我被人为地与一切隔绝了。
I don't have my own password to my social media.
我没有自己的社交媒体密码。
I have blocks on my phone, so I can't access the Internet.
我的手机被屏蔽了，所以无法访问互联网。
So it's like I do put all these things into place to protect myself because I'm a sensitive person.
所以我确实把所有这些事情都放在适当的位置来保护自己，因为我是一个敏感的人。
So, as an artist, there's certain isms and stories.
所以，作为一名艺术家，有一定的主义和故事。
It's like, "Oh, starving artist.
就像，“哦，饥饿的艺术家。
You're not going to make any money," like struggling artist.
你不会赚到任何钱，”就像苦苦挣扎的艺术家一样。
There's these stories that people say, and then you buy into them.
人们讲述这些故事，然后你就相信它们。
But I had a few teachers along the way that influenced me that there's just certain moments happen in your life that live in your head rent-free, and I have a lot of those.
但一路走来，有几位老师影响了我，让我知道生活中发生的某些时刻是免费存在于你的脑海中的，我有很多这样的时刻。
And so one of the stories is, I'm 49.
其中一个故事是，我 49 岁了。
It's like you have to live in New York City.
就像你必须住在纽约市一样。
If you make it in New York, you make it anywhere.
如果你在纽约成功，那么你在任何地方都可以成功。
What the fuck am I doing in the 408?
我到底在 408 里做什么？
What am I doing in Cooper Town?
我在库珀镇做什么？
In my head, the story's written that you're a fucking...
在我的脑海里，这个故事写的是你他妈的……
And I hadn't done shit.
而我又没做过坏事。
But in my head, I'm like, "You're the greatest artist ever in Gilroy." You know what I mean?
但在我的脑海里，我想，“你是吉尔罗伊有史以来最伟大的艺术家。”你知道我的意思？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sorry, no disrespect to Gilroy.
抱歉，无意冒犯吉尔罗伊。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
It's like the garlic capital of Garlic Fest.
它就像大蒜节的大蒜之都。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, sorry.
是的，抱歉。
Sure.
当然。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Garlic ice cream.
大蒜冰淇淋。
So there's a story in my head that is like, I got to get to New York City, right?
所以我脑子里有一个故事，就像，我必须去纽约，对吧？
I couldn't get any leeway in Los Angeles.
我在洛杉矶没有任何余地。
I'm born and raised in LA, and I couldn't...
我在洛杉矶出生和长大，但我不能...
And now I look back, and if I do an inventory of the most creative explosions and the most periods of creativity in my life, it's always found in the mundane.
现在我回想起来，如果我盘点一下我一生中最具创造力的爆发和最具创造力的时期，它总是在平凡中发现。
It's always found in cold temperatures.
它总是在寒冷的温度下被发现。
It's always found when there's no Wi-Fi.
没有 Wi-Fi 时总是能找到它。
It's always found in a suburb of...
它总是在郊区发现......
It's like this story like, "And when I get to fucking New York, and I'm going to be part of this movement." It's never that.
就像这个故事一样，“当我到达他妈的纽约时，我将成为这场运动的一部分。”从来不是那样的。
It's nice to romanticize that, but it's these moments of brilliance.
将其浪漫化是件好事，但正是这些辉煌时刻。
Like someone, whoever's listening right now, they're like, "I got this, and then I'm going to get to this, and then I'm going to meet this person, and I'm going to do..." And it's like, bro, I was fucking living in San Jose for seven years.
就像某人，无论现在谁在听，他们都会说，“我得到了这个，然后我会得到这个，然后我会遇到这个人，我会做......”这就像，兄弟，我他妈的在圣何塞生活了七年。
I met this wonderful lady.
我遇到了这位出色的女士。
She was my girlfriend for seven years.
她是我七年的女朋友。
But at that prime, I was 23, and I was like...
但在那个巅峰时期，我23岁，我就像……
And for me, the stakes are so high because...
对我来说，赌注是如此之高，因为......
So one of the teachers was my mother.
其中一位老师就是我的母亲。
My mother is hardcore born-again Christian.
我的母亲是铁杆重生基督徒。
So science does not enter the picture.
所以科学不参与其中。
It's like blinders on, and through her, I learned blind faith.
就像蒙上眼罩一样，通过她，我学会了盲目信仰。
Jesus Christ, that's it.
耶稣基督，就是这样。
So wait, you're telling me there was an actual ark with two animals, and the two animals didn't kill the other in the...
等等，你是在告诉我，有一艘真正的方舟，里面有两只动物，而这两只动物并没有在……中互相残杀。
And there was Adam, and there was a snake that talked?
还有亚当，还有一条会说话的蛇？
And she's like, "Yeah." No hesitation.
她说：“是的。”毫不犹豫。
So she gave me that gift of like, "Hey, science, facts?
所以她给了我这样的礼物，“嘿，科学，事实？
No." Holy shit.
不。”天哪。
Nothing could falter her, and you're like, "You're fucking stupid.
没有什么可以让她动摇，你会说：“你真他妈的愚蠢。
You're ignorant." But she's not.
你无知。”但她不是。
She's a bright woman.
她是一个聪明的女人。
And now I look back and I just met you.
现在我回首，我才遇见了你。
You're a brilliant guy, and I sit here, and I go, I know some of the smartest people on the planet.
你是一个聪明的人，我坐在这里，我走了，我认识一些地球上最聪明的人。
You know some of the smartest people on the planet, and they're all dumb.
你认识一些地球上最聪明的人，但他们都很蠢。
They're all idiots.
他们都是白痴。
You're like, "Wait, you're a genius.
你会说：“等等，你是个天才。
You have photographic memory.
你有过目不忘的记忆力。
You created this company, da, da, da." And you've made some of the dumbest decisions I've ever ....
你创建了这家公司，哒，哒，哒。”你做出了一些我做过的最愚蠢的决定......
It's like, yeah, you're really good at this, but you don't know relationships or you don't know...
就像，是的，你真的很擅长这件事，但你不了解人际关系，或者你不知道......
So So my mom taught me through just not anything, but just watching her, of just this absolute belief.
所以我妈妈没有通过任何东西教会我，只是看着她，就是这种绝对的信念。
And one of her beliefs was, you're my son.
她的信念之一是，你是我的儿子。
This is some Jesus shit.
这是耶稣的狗屎。
Like me, who is like, how I explain this is fucking neurotic mess, growing up in an unstable family and all that, got fucking molested.
就像我一样，我如何解释这真是神经质的混乱，在一个不稳定的家庭中长大等等，被他妈的骚扰了。
Every abuse, physical abuse, emotional abuse, just chaotic because they were working and then I was just left out in the wild, abandoned.
每一次虐待，身体虐待，情感虐待，都很混乱，因为他们在工作，然后我就被遗弃在野外，被遗弃。
Spiritual abuse, all this shit.
精神虐待，所有这些狗屎。
And she's just like, in the same way she believed in God and Jesus, she's like: "You're the one.
她就像，就像她相信上帝和耶稣一样，她就像：“你就是那个。
You're the greatest artist." And I'm five years old.
你是最伟大的艺术家。”我五岁了。
I'm like, "What the fuck are you talking about?" She's like: "No one's better than you.
我说：“你他妈的在说什么？”她说：“没有人比你更好。
No one's better than you.
没有人比你更好。
You're going to be the great-- Your name's David," like a lot of Koreans named after Bible.
你会成为伟大的人——你的名字叫大卫”，就像许多以圣经命名的韩国人一样。
She's like: "I named you after King David.
她就像：“我以大卫王的名字给你命名。
You're going to be a king." And I go, but now in hindsight, I'm like, and yes, King David beat Goliath, but he also was a sex addict and had a lot of mental illness and failed a lot.
你要成为国王。”我走了，但现在事后看来，我想，是的，大卫王击败了歌利亚，但他也是一个性瘾者，患有很多精神疾病，并且失败了很多。
She didn't tell me all that shit.
她没有告诉我所有这些狗屎。
So she's raising me, she's brainwashing me.
所以她在抚养我，她在给我洗脑。
She's like, "You're the best.
她说：“你是最棒的。
You're the greatest." And then I've met other artists where it's like everyone has their own paths.
你是最伟大的。”然后我遇到了其他艺术家，每个人都有自己的道路。
Some become great because the parents are like, "You're nothing.
有些人变得伟大是因为父母说：“你什么都不是。
You're a piece of shit.
你就是个废物。
You're the worst.
你是最糟糕的。
Who the fuck do you think you are?" I had the opposite.
你他妈以为你是谁？”我的情况恰恰相反。
I had a mom just, it didn't matter.
我只是有一个妈妈，这并不重要。
It didn't matter.
没关系。
Like, "But Mom, look at how horrible." She's like, "You're the greatest." And so it's like at some point, I hate myself.
就像，“但是妈妈，看看有多可怕。”她说：“你是最伟大的。”所以就像在某个时候，我讨厌自己。
I have such a low self-opinion of myself.
我对自己的自我评价非常低。
I'm just down on myself, just this kid, just constantly getting bullied and the world just using me and I'm like, "Of course, she says that.
我只是对自己感到失望，只是这个孩子，不断地被欺负，整个世界都在利用我，我就像，“当然，她这么说。
She's my mom." But she just brainwashed me into believing that I'm the best, and I would, as a trickster and a shape-shifter, I would-- what most artists lack is an ability to communicate with words.
她是我妈妈。”但她只是给我洗脑，让我相信自己是最好的，作为一个骗子和变形者，我会的——大多数艺术家缺乏的是用语言交流的能力。
That's why they're such brilliant artists, and that's why they can make great music and all this because they can't.
这就是为什么他们是如此出色的艺术家，这就是为什么他们可以创作出伟大的音乐，而这一切都是因为他们做不到。
I can't.
我不能。
I'm going to probably talk to you for a few hours today, and I'm going to leave here feeling misunderstood.
今天我可能会和你聊几个小时，然后我会带着被误解的感觉离开这里。
I'm going to be like, "Fuck, did I..." Because I'm not-- In the same way I can translate what I feel in a painting.
我会说，“操，我是不是……”因为我不是——就像我可以在绘画中表达我的感受一样。
It's like when people describe ayahuasca or something.
就像人们描述死藤水之类的东西一样。
They try to describe and they're like, the words that you're trying to look for don't exist for what you just went through.
他们试图描述，但他们就像是，你试图寻找的词语对于你刚刚经历过的事情来说并不存在。
So that's kind of why I get really self-judgmental.
这就是为什么我会进行自我评判。
But I'm like, this woman, and then my dad, he loves me, but he's like, "He's all right.
但我想，这个女人，然后是我的父亲，他爱我，但他就像，“他很好。
He's okay." And I'd watch my mom, who was just a brutal businesswoman.
他没事。”我会观察我的妈妈，她只是一个残酷的女商人。
And she would transform.
她会改变。
I spent most of my life either poor or middle class.
我一生的大部分时间都是在穷人或中产阶级中度过的。
Being wealthy came later.
变得富有是后来的事。
But so we were on welfare a lot.
但我们靠福利生活很多。
Our businesses burned down in the LA riots.
我们的企业在洛杉矶骚乱中被烧毁。
I saw my parents struggle a lot.
我看到我的父母很挣扎。
But then they would do good, and they had the gambler's mentality, which a lot of Asians do, and I have that too.
但他们会做得很好，他们有赌徒心态，很多亚洲人都有，我也有。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is?
哪个是？
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Just, I don't know if this is true, but I heard that Asians have the gambling gene more than other races, especially the women.
只是，我不知道这是否属实，但我听说亚洲人比其他种族尤其是女性更具有赌博基因。
Most women don't have the gambling gene the same way men do.
大多数女性不像男性那样具有赌博基因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
So my mom would gamble flipping houses or not in a casino, but just huge swings, which you're like-- I grew up with a fearless woman.
所以我妈妈会赌博炒房子或不在赌场，但只是巨大的波动，就像你一样 - 我和一个无所畏惧的女人一起长大。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
But so we wouldn't have stuff, but then I would watch my mom open the trunk of her car and put on fake jewelries, cubic zirconium, because she's about to go into a meeting and ask for a lot of money, and just insane lying but hardcore Christian.
但这样我们就没有东西了，但后来我会看着我妈妈打开她的汽车后备箱，戴上假珠宝，立方锆，因为她要去参加一个会议，要很多钱，只是疯狂的谎言，但铁杆基督徒。
So, the hypocrisy there.
所以，虚伪就在那里。
I'm trying to work on my own breaking out, so it's like I'm going to be hypocritical in this interview, and at the end, hopefully, I'll be able to correct any exaggerations or lies.
我正在努力突破自己，所以在这次采访中我会变得虚伪，希望最后我能够纠正任何夸大或谎言。
But that's a new tool that I have.
但这是我拥有的一个新工具。
I used to just whatever for the story.
我以前只是为了这个故事而做任何事情。
I lie to tell the truth, all those things.
我撒谎是为了说实话，所有这些事情。
So I'd watch my mom transform from a poor woman.
所以我会看着我妈妈从一个贫穷的女人转变。
The mentality was she's like, "My son is the greatest artist in the world, and I'm coming out of my Toyota hatchback with the broken window.
她的心态是这样的：“我的儿子是世界上最伟大的艺术家，而我正从车窗破损的丰田掀背车里走出来。
But when I go into this meeting right now, you're not going to see that." So she'd transform herself into this rich, powerful woman, and then just like get-- I'm just sitting there, a kid in the corner, watching this woman get what she wants.
但当我现在参加这次会议时，你不会看到这一点。”所以她会把自己变成一个富有、有权势的女人，然后就像——我只是坐在那儿，一个角落里的孩子，看着这个女人得到她想要的东西。
I'm like, "Holy fuck.
我就像，“天哪。
What the fuck was that performance?" And then just coming out and I'm like, "But Mom, those things you said, that wasn't real.
那场表演到底是什么鬼？”然后我就出来了，“但是妈妈，你说的那些事情不是真的。
That's not true." And she's like, "Yeah, they don't need to know that." And I'm like, "But we just went to church and we learned the Ten Commandments, and you're not supposed to lie." And it's just all this confusion.
这不是真的。”她说：“是的，他们不需要知道这一点。”我想，“但是我们刚刚去了教堂，我们学习了十诫，你不应该撒谎。”这就是所有这些混乱。
And then I meet Sean Parker, who, just the sweetest kid.
然后我遇到了肖恩·帕克，他是最可爱的孩子。
He started emailing me right when he started Napster.
他一创办 Napster 就开始给我发电子邮件。
I have all the emails.
我有所有的电子邮件。
I keep certain emails and voice messages, and that's my own nostalgia.
我保留了某些电子邮件和语音消息，这是我自己的怀旧之情。
But I have a voicemail and a handwritten letter from Howard Stern saying, "Thank you for getting me into watercolors." And I was like, "Dude, my fucking hero.
但我收到了一封语音邮件和一封霍华德·斯特恩的手写信，上面写着：“谢谢你让我爱上了水彩画。”我当时想，“伙计，我他妈的英雄。
Yes." It's such a good feeling.
是的。”这种感觉真好。
I have a voice message from Pee-wee Herman, which I'll share later.
我收到了 Pee-wee Herman 的语音留言，我稍后会分享。
And all my early emails with Sean Parker I kept just because it was He's such an interesting, wonderful...
我保留了我早期与肖恩·帕克的所有电子邮件，只是因为他是如此有趣、美妙……
I know the image of him, but we don't talk like we used to, but I still consider him a friend, and I'm forever grateful to him.
我知道他的形象，但我们不像以前那样说话了，但我仍然把他当作朋友，我永远感激他。
But so, I met him at a time when, I don't even know how to desc- just complete disgrace and shame to my family.
但所以，我遇见他的时候，我什至不知道如何描述——这对我的家人来说是彻底的耻辱和耻辱。
It's like the immigrant story.
这就像移民的故事。
Talk to any immigrant.
与任何移民交谈。
Why the fuck did you leave your home to come to another country?
你他妈为什么要离开家乡来到另一个国家？
Because it was shitty there.
因为那里很烂。
That's it.
就是这样。
You're not born in a country and you're like, "Dude, let's leave." Right?
你不是出生在一个国家，你会说，“伙计，我们离开吧。”正确的？
The only reason why anyone's here is because it was shitty where you were at, right?
有人来这里的唯一原因是因为你所在的地方太糟糕了，对吧？
So then they all, it doesn't matter if you're Asian or Mexican, whatever, you came here for a better life.
那么他们所有人，无论你是亚洲人还是墨西哥人，不管怎样，你来到这里是为了更好的生活。
And what does that mean?
这意味着什么？
Work your ass off.
努力工作吧。
So we're in a nation of workaholics, right?
所以我们处在一个工作狂的国家，对吗？
This is an entire country of workaholics.
这是一个充满工作狂的国家。
So my parents, I didn't go through it, but they're like, Japanese tanks rolled down the street.
所以我的父母，我没有经历过，但他们就像日本坦克滚过街道。
And they have the typical fucking war, famine, all that stuff.
他们有典型的该死的战争，饥荒，所有这些东西。
So they get over here and born and raised in Los Angeles.
所以他们来到这里，在洛杉矶出生和长大。
It's like, don't know who I am, don't know where I belong, just bullied, abandoned, abused over and over, and just...
就像，不知道我是谁，不知道我属于哪里，只是被欺负，被抛弃，一遍又一遍地虐待，然后......
I didn't even really know the concept of suicide, but I hated myself.
我什至不知道自杀的概念，但我讨厌自己。
I couldn't live in my-- It felt like I was burning inside my own body.
我无法生活在我的——感觉就像我的身体在燃烧。
And so, even made fun of, like I listen to, we have the same taste in music.
因此，即使被取笑，就像我听的那样，我们对音乐的品味是相同的。
I listen to Minutemen, Minor Threat.
我听《民兵》、《小威胁》。
I'm blasting Downset, Inside Out, Soundgarden, Slaves and Bull-- I used to put on Soundgarden's Slaves and Bulldozers, punch myself.
我对《Downset》、《头脑特工队》、《Soundgarden》、《Slaves and Bull》进行了猛烈抨击——我以前经常播放《Soundgarden》的《Slaves》和《Bulldozers》，然后打自己。
I'm in my room, a teenager, just punching myself as hard as I can just to go into a berserker rage.
我在自己的房间里，一个十几岁的孩子，尽我所能地用力打自己，只是为了陷入狂暴之中。
And I just, back then, I found pornography, and it was just so soothing.
那时我只是发现了色情内容，它是如此令人舒缓。
It was like getting high.
就像变得很嗨一样。
I would just masturbate over and over again.
我只会一遍又一遍地自慰。
So I would do weird self-harm, I guess the kids call it edging, but I'd masturbate but then not come and then beat myself up.
所以我会做奇怪的自残，我猜孩子们称之为边缘，但我会手淫，但然后不来，然后殴打自己。
And I'm going through puberty, and I would go out and I'd shoplift spray cans, just at hardware stores.
我正处于青春期，我会出去偷喷雾罐，就在五金店。
And I'm listening to, I would get Faith No More, In Living Color, just some song, and I would just, an OCD, just repeat some lyric in it.
我正在听，我会听到《Faith No More》、《In Living Color》，只是一些歌曲，我只是一个强迫症患者，只是重复其中的一些歌词。
"I am a patient boy." And I would just go into a trance, and I would just go out, and I would just fucking spray paint.
“我是一个有耐心的男孩。”我会进入恍惚状态，然后出去，然后他妈的喷漆。
And I'm living at home.
而且我住在家里。
So I'm not hiding this shit.
所以我不会隐瞒这件事。
I come home, my hand's covered in black paint.
我回到家，我的手沾满了黑色的油漆。
"This is what we fucking came to this country for?
“这就是我们他妈来到这个国家的目的？
This is why we fucking left another country so you could come here and not be an art, but do graff-- You're a disgrace.
这就是为什么我们他妈的离开了另一个国家，这样你就可以来到这里，而不是成为一名艺术，而是做格拉夫——你是一个耻辱。
You're a disgrace to our race." And my dad would just fucking throw me against the wall, and I'm like, "I don't care, dude.
你是我们种族的耻辱。”我爸爸就会他妈的把我扔到墙上，我就说：“我不在乎，伙计。
I don't care what you're...
我不在乎你是什么...
Do you understand?
你明白吗？
I wasn't actively trying to kill myself, but I didn't...
我并没有主动试图自杀，但我没有……
Do you understand that everything you care about, I don't care.
你明白吗，你关心的一切，我都不在乎。
Do you get that?" And you start the show, and I was laughing because it's like, "Hey, I'm Andrew Huberman, scientist, Stanford, this." And I'm like, "I don't care." I like Andy.
你明白吗？”当你开始表演时，我笑了，因为它就像，“嘿，我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，科学家，斯坦福大学，这个。”我说：“我不在乎。”我喜欢安迪。
I like that.
我喜欢这样。
And then I was like, "You know what?
然后我说：“你知道吗？
This is like Stolen Valor." Sean Parker starting Facebook with Mark Zuckerberg.
这就像被盗的勇气。”肖恩·帕克 (Sean Parker) 与马克·扎克伯格 (Mark Zuckerberg) 一起创立了 Facebook。
I'm there at the beginning, and so he brings me in, and at the time, when I first, this is years, the emails back and forth.
我一开始就在那里，所以他带我进来，当时，当我第一次来的时候，已经好几年了，电子邮件来来回回。
He's like, "I need..." Because the energy I was putting out at the time was what I'm telling you right now, just I don't give a fuck.
他就像是，“我需要……”因为我当时所消耗的能量就是我现在告诉你的，只是我不在乎。
I don't care what you care about.
我不在乎你在乎什么。
It's just complete, I don't care if I go to jail.
一切都完成了，我不在乎是否进监狱。
I'm just painting on everything.
我只是在一切事物上作画。
And it's like graffiti.
这就像涂鸦。
Graffiti is vandal.
涂鸦是破坏行为。
It's not graffiti artist or street art.
这不是涂鸦艺术家或街头艺术。
It's fucking vandalism.
这他妈就是破坏公物。
It's a crime.
这是犯罪行为。
And people are telling me, anyone out there doing street art, there's so many rules.
人们告诉我，任何从事街头艺术的人，都有很多规则。
There's so many.
有这么多。
What did you write?
你写了什么？
Did you use to tag it or anything?
你用过标记它还是什么吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, but I had a good friend from-
不，但我有一个好朋友——
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Shut up.
闭嘴。
If you skated, you definitely had like a...
如果你滑冰，你肯定会喜欢...
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There were some kids in our crew that-
我们的船员中有一些孩子——
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Cubes?
立方体？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No.
不。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
What did you tag?
你标记了什么？
Come on.
快点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, because I had friends who were graffers, and they boxed us out.
不，因为我有一些朋友是盗版者，他们把我们排除在外。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The Under Shadows kids.
阴影下的孩子们。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
You never did graffiti?
你从来没有涂鸦过？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, but we can talk about this later.
不，但我们可以稍后再讨论这个问题。
I want to hear from you now.
我现在想听听你的消息。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But later, we should talk about Orphan and the Under Shadows crew, which is a kind of a thing in the Bay Area.
但稍后我们应该谈谈《孤儿》和《暗影之下》剧组，这是湾区的一种事情。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah.
是的。
I know them.
我认识他们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
He was a good friend of mine.
他是我的好朋友。
But anyway, I didn't graffiti.
但无论如何，我没有涂鸦。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Okay.
好的。
So I'm-
所以我-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I drew on my grip tape.
但我用我的胶带画了画。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
All right.
好吧。
That's good.
那挺好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But no, I wasn't a tagger, wasn't a graffiti guy.
但不，我不是一个涂鸦者，也不是一个涂鸦者。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah.
是的。
So I'm out doing that, and we can have a conversation about creativity and this and that, and it's like I can't.
所以我出去这样做了，我们可以就创造力和这个那个进行对话，但我好像不能。
It's very hard to talk about cre-- It's because it's like, can you teach a craft?
很难谈论创造力——因为这就像，你能教一门手艺吗？
Can you teach a skill?
可以传授一门技能吗？
Can I teach you to paint the Mona Lisa?
我可以教你画《蒙娜丽莎》吗？
Yeah.
是的。
I know how to do all that.
我知道如何做到这一切。
I know how to like...
我知道如何去喜欢...
I went to school.
我去学校了。
I taught myself.
我自学。
I watched videos.
我看了视频。
You could teach yourself how to paint something to make it look like something.
你可以教自己如何画一些东西，让它看起来像一些东西。
That's a teachable skill.
这是一项可传授的技能。
But creativity, where does that come from?
但创造力，它从何而来？
Are you just born with it?
你是天生就有的吗？
Is it from deprivation?
是因为匮乏吗？
I can only share what my path is, and it's like The embarrassment.
我只能分享我的路是什么，就像尴尬一样。
Like, "You're Asian, you need to get a 4.0.
就像，“你是亚洲人，你需要获得 4.0。
You need to get into UCLA.
你需要进入加州大学洛杉矶分校。
You need to be a doctor or a lawyer." And it's like me, I'm the middle child, me and my two brothers, long hair, listening to heavy metal and punk.
你需要成为一名医生或律师。”就像我一样，我是老二，我和我的两个兄弟，长发，听重金属和朋克。
"Why are you doing that white shit?" And then you got the Asian kids that are into heavy...
“你为什么要做这种白事？”然后你就会看到那些喜欢重口味的亚洲孩子......
There was no identity, right?
没有身份吧？
And then it's just lost.
然后它就丢失了。
Just like, what the fuck is...
就像，他妈的是什么...
We don't belong anywhere.
我们不属于任何地方。
Just the Asian depictions in media is like Long Duk Dong.
媒体上对亚洲人的描述就像龙德洞一样。
Asians have small dicks.
亚洲人的鸡鸡很小。
They can't drive.
他们不会开车。
They're good at math.
他们数学很好。
It's just nothing's good, right?
没什么好说的，对吧？
And I'm just trying to figure out my way in this world.
我只是想在这个世界上找到自己的出路。
And I remember Sean just was attracted to whatever little art I'd start getting some noticed in Juxtapoz, and I was starting to do graffiti everywhere and he's like, "I want that.
我记得肖恩只是被我在 Juxtapoz 开始引起注意的任何小艺术所吸引，我开始到处涂鸦，他说，“我想要那个。
Whatever that is, I want that.
不管那是什么，我想要那个。
I want to be part of that." And I said...
我想成为其中的一部分。”我说……
And I forgot what my painting.
我也忘记了我画的是什么。
It was right when I couldn't sell a painting, and then all of a sudden they were selling for a couple thousand.
正好一幅画卖不出去，突然就卖到几千了。
And he was a teenager still.
而他还是个十几岁的孩子。
And he goes, "I want your art, but the problem is I'm being sued right now for a trillion dollars because every single song is a lawsuit." I mean, whatever.
他说，“我想要你的艺术，但问题是我现在被起诉，索赔一万亿美元，因为每首歌都是一场诉讼。”我的意思是，无论如何。
It ended up the way it ended up.
事情就这样结束了。
But I remember he goes, "I'm getting..." He showed me a screenshot or whatever.
但我记得他说，“我正在……”他给我看了一张截图或其他什么东西。
He's like, "I'm being sued for $1 trillion right now, so I can't really afford your art, but I'm going to get it." So we started this relationship, and he would send me these crazy abstract texts of emails of what he wanted me to paint.
他就像是，“我现在被起诉要求赔偿 1 万亿美元，所以我真的买不起你的艺术品，但我会得到它。”所以我们开始了这种关系，他会向我发送这些疯狂的抽象电子邮件文本，内容是他想让我画的东西。
And then he started another company called Plaxo, and he's like, "No." And then finally, you're catching me in the South Bay.
然后他创办了另一家名为 Plaxo 的公司，他说：“不。”最后，你在南湾遇见了我。
I met this girl, we fell in love, and I moved to San Jose, just the most culturally dead place.
我遇到了这个女孩，我们坠入爱河，然后我搬到了圣何塞，那里是文化最死寂的地方。
And everyone's rollerblading, working at Apple or MySpace or eBay or some tech startup.
每个人都在滑旱冰，在 Apple、MySpace、eBay 或一些科技初创公司工作。
And they're like, "We're cool because we have a trampoline and we have a kitchen area where you can have all the Red Bull and snacks you want.
他们说，“我们很酷，因为我们有蹦床，我们有一个厨房区，你可以在那里喝到所有你想要的红牛和零食。
And we have bunk beds so we..." And that's all, so you could just keep working.
我们有双层床，所以我们......”就这样，你可以继续工作。
And so I meet Sean, and he's like, "Dude, we're starting this company called Facebook, and we finally have some money." And he's like, "Where are you at?" And he didn't know all this, but I had just gotten out of prison.
于是我遇到了 Sean，他说：“伙计，我们要创办一家名为 Facebook 的公司，我们终于有了一些钱。”他就像，“你在哪里？”而这一切他都不知道，而我刚刚出狱。
I was in jail in Japan because I had beaten up a undercover security guard.
我在日本因为殴打卧底保安而入狱。
I was 27 when I got out, and I owed everyone money.
我出狱时才27岁，我欠了所有人的钱。
I owed my girlfriend money, I owed...
我欠我女朋友钱，我欠...
And so I needed money bad.
所以我非常需要钱。
And I was in a lot of trouble.
我遇到了很多麻烦。
I didn't know how I was going to pay everyone back because it's really hard to sell a painting.
我不知道如何偿还大家的钱，因为卖画真的很难。
But my paintings did sell once in a while, and they were starting to get pretty expensive.
但我的画确实偶尔会卖掉，而且价格开始变得相当昂贵。
And then all the art that I did in jail, I used to work for Vice Magazine.
然后我在监狱里所做的所有艺术工作都是为《Vice》杂志工作的。
I say work because, but I never got paid.
我说工作是因为，但我从未得到报酬。
But I-
但我——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They didn't pay you?
他们没付钱给你？
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
No. I think people, if anyone's listening, as a little side tangent is, and it's going to definitely sound like OCD, like I'm keeping a list, and maybe I am, because I don't think about it, but I was sitting the other day and I go, "They all owe me money." Everyone I've ever worked for.
不。我认为人们，如果有人在听的话，就像一个小切线一样，这听起来绝对像强迫症，就像我在保留一份清单，也许我是，因为我没有考虑它，但有一天我坐着，我说，“他们都欠我钱。”我曾经为过的每个人。
People are like, "I got to get paid." Someone develops a skill, like I'm good at songwriting or this or that.
人们会说，“我必须得到报酬。”有人发展了一项技能，比如我擅长歌曲创作或这个或那个。
And then they go, "Well, I got to..." Like the young people's mental.
然后他们就会说，“好吧，我必须……”就像年轻人的心理一样。
Like, "Well, that's my craft.
就像，“好吧，那是我的手艺。
I got to get paid." I go, "I never got paid." I worked for Nike, Levi's, Ruka, Giant Robot, Vice, fucking even my friend Steve Aoki, and just all every, like 88 Rising.
我必须得到报酬。”我说：“我从来没有得到过报酬。”我为 Nike、Levi's、Ruka、Giant Robot、Vice 工作过，甚至还和我的朋友 Steve Aoki 工作过，以及所有的公司，比如 88 Rising。
If I sit here, I'll name everyone.
如果我坐在这里，我会说出每个人的名字。
But either they didn't pay me what they said, or I had to threaten to kill them for them to send me, or they just never paid me.
但要么他们没有按照他们所说的那样付钱给我，要么我不得不威胁要杀了他们才能让他们派我去，要么他们从来没有付钱给我。
And I met Gavin McInnes when he started Vice, and he had seen some of the art that I did in Giant Robot.
当 Gavin McInnes 创办 Vice 时，我认识了他，他也看到了我在《巨人机器人》中所做的一些艺术创作。
He saw that I went to the Congo.
他看到我去了刚果。
He saw, and he's like, "Hey." And it was all punk rock at Vice when it was the big format.
他看到了，然后就说：“嘿。”当 Vice 盛行时，一切都是朋克摇滚。
And he's like, "Dude." And he just believed in me.
他就像，“伙计。”他只是相信我。
I don't know what he saw.
我不知道他看到了什么。
He's like, "Dude, send me a drawing of cops beating up this." And I did it fast.
他说，“伙计，给我发一张警察殴打的图吧。”而且我做得很快。
He's like, "I need it by tomorrow." And I was like, "I can do it." And then he's like, he just was like, "Hey, write me a story about some shooting in LA Koreatown gangster shit." And I go, "But I'm not..." He's like, "Just do it." And at one point, that was another figure that resonated my mom of, like, the rules, reality doesn't apply.
他说：“我明天之前就需要它。”我当时想，“我能做到。”然后他就说，“嘿，给我写一个关于洛杉矶韩国城黑帮枪击事件的故事。”我说，“但我不是……”他说，“就这么做吧。”在某一时刻，这是另一个引起我妈妈共鸣的数字，就像规则，现实并不适用。
I'm sitting there going, "Wait, but I'm not a journalist.
我坐在那里说：“等等，但我不是记者。
I didn't fact-check anything." And there was some issues of Vice where I wrote five different articles under a woman's name, a Black guy's name, just made-up names, articles just to fill up pages.
我没有核实任何事情。”在《Vice》的某些期中，我以一个女人的名字、一个黑人的名字写了五篇不同的文章，这些文章只是虚构的名字，只是为了填满页面。
And I would have done the comic section, illustrations, music review, street fashion, the dos and don'ts.
我会负责漫画部分、插图、音乐评论、街头时尚、注意事项。
And I'm just like, "You can do that?" And I had already been groomed for that because of my mom.
我只是想，“你能做到吗？”因为我妈妈的缘故，我已经为此做好了准备。
It's like, nope, reality doesn't apply.
就像，不，现实并不适用。
My mom thinks I'm the best artist, and now here's...
我妈妈认为我是最好的艺术家，现在...
So Sean's like, "Okay." And so I'm in what I feel is like purgatory, the 408 San Jose, Milpitas.
所以肖恩就说：“好吧。”所以我感觉自己身处炼狱般的地方，位于米尔皮塔斯圣何塞 408 号。
I'm just like, "What the fuck is this?" And I'm telling myself, "I got to get to, when I get to New York." It's like this Golden Gate, end of the Golden Road, like "Wizard of Oz." Like, when I get there, then I'm going to get discovered, and then someone's going to be like...
我只是想，“这他妈是什么？”我告诉自己，“当我到达纽约时，我必须去。”就像这个金门，黄金之路的尽头，就像《绿野仙踪》。就像，当我到达那里时，我就会被发现，然后有人会像......
Because what is it?
因为它是什么？
People are like, "What is..." And I go, I can be a hater.
人们会说，“什么是……”然后我走了，我可以成为一个仇恨者。
I can be a loving, sweet, selfless person, and I could be a very hard, judgmental hater to myself.
我可以是一个充满爱心、可爱、无私的人，也可以是一个非常严厉、喜欢评判自己的人。
And so I take this so seriously, what we're doing here today is talking.
所以我非常认真地对待这个问题，我们今天在这里所做的就是谈论。
I mean, it's mostly me talking, I could see that, but it's like we're having a conversation, but I think without sounding...
我的意思是，主要是我在说话，我可以看到这一点，但这就像我们正在交谈，但我认为没有声音......
I think it's important.
我认为这很重要。
That's why I'm here.
这就是我在这里的原因。
Like I said, I'm like, "Why?" I feel like I trust you even though I just met you, but yeah, I fucking puked down the street because I go, "What's the upside?" I'm going to talk and then maybe I say something that I didn't mean, or I say it the wrong way, or it gets clipped weird or edited, and I go, "I think it's important.
就像我说的，我想，“为什么？”我觉得我信任你，即使我刚认识你，但是，是的，我他妈的吐在街上，因为我想，“有什么好处？”我要讲话，然后也许我会说一些我无意的事情，或者我说错了，或者它被奇怪地剪辑或编辑了，然后我说，“我认为这很重要。
I want to come.
我想来。
I want to talk to you." And that's how I feel about my art.
我想和你谈谈。”这就是我对我的艺术的感受。
So what is that?
那么那是什么？
What is art?
什么是艺术？
What is creativity?
什么是创造力？
And for me, it's like, I think sports are very gay, especially skateboarding.
对我来说，我认为运动是非常同性恋的，尤其是滑板。
If I never played sports, I would've never seen another man's penis.
如果我从不参加体育运动，我就永远不会看到另一个男人的阴茎。
And then in my time in sports, it was very rough because I told myself, any athlete that I paint with, they always start saying the same thing.
然后在我从事体育运动的时候，这非常艰难，因为我告诉自己，任何和我一起画画的运动员，他们总是开始说同样的话。
"I suck at drawing." And I go, "Why did you do that?
“我画画很烂。”我说：“你为什么这么做？
Why did you immediately shoot yourself in-- Who said that?
你为什么立即开枪自杀——谁说的？
Did someone else say that, or did you say that?" They start with saying something negative.
是别人说的，还是你说的？”他们首先会说一些负面的话。
And then I go, "That's exactly what I say if they try to teach me how to throw a free throw." I go, "Oh, this is going to suck." And they go, "Why did you do that?" And so for me, growing up, I grew up in a lot of Black neighborhoods where the second-- I don't know how to play basketball, but the second I try and I fuck up, it's like, "Look at the Chinese kid fucking try..." And so I go, "All right.
然后我说：“如果他们试图教我如何罚球，我就会这么说。”我说：“哦，这会很糟糕。”他们问：“你为什么这么做？”所以对我来说，在成长过程中，我在很多黑人社区长大，第二，我不知道如何打篮球，但当我尝试打篮球时，我就搞砸了，就像是，“看看那个中国孩子他妈的尝试......”所以我说，“好吧。
You know what?
你知道吗？
I'm not even going to try." And it's like, well, you should've just come at 5:00 in the morning when no one was there.
我什至都不会去尝试。”就好像，好吧，你应该在早上 5:00 没人的时候来。
But I was so sensitive.
但我太敏感了。
I was like, "I don't want to." So I did things in the pri-- Art is a solitary sport for the most part.
我当时想，“我不想。”所以我在初级阶段就做了一些事情——艺术在很大程度上是一项孤独的运动。
There's no Rob there.
那里没有罗布。
It's just me.
这只是我。
Even in the thing, it's like this.
即使在事情上，也是如此。
Don't look at my sketchbook.
别看我的素描本。
But in here, I can fuck up and fix, erase, whatever.
但在这里，我可以搞砸、修复、删除等等。
But so in sports, it's like you're slapping guys' asses, you're taking showers with them, you're doing all this male bonding stuff.
但在体育运动中，就像你在拍男人的屁股，你和他们一起洗澡，你在做所有这些男性联结的事情。
You're just spending a lot of times with other men.
你只是花很多时间和其他男人在一起。
And I'm like, "Oh, God." What is the feeling?
我就像，“哦，上帝。”什么感觉？
I'm trying to isolate the feeling.
我试图隔离这种感觉。
And I remember, because I tell this stuff not to be like, feel sorry for me or I'm a victim.
我记得，因为我告诉这些东西不要像，为我感到难过，否则我就是受害者。
I don't feel like that.
我不这么觉得。
I mean, I'm just telling you-
我的意思是，我只是告诉你——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You don't sound like a victim
你听起来不像受害者
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
...
...
I'm telling you what happened.
我告诉你发生了什么事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
And part of it is you do like a what would you rather, would you rather someone beat you up for five minutes or have the whole world read your diary?
部分原因是你确实喜欢你想要什么，你愿意有人殴打你五分钟还是让全世界都读你的日记？
These kind of...
这些类型的...
And luckily, I had both happen.
幸运的是，这两件事我都发生了。
I've been beaten to an inch of my life.
我已经被打得只剩下一英寸了。
I've had broken bones, I've been stabbed, I've been burnt.
我骨折过，被刺伤过，被烧伤过。
I've been everything physically you can think of, and I'm still here.
我的身体素质已经达到了你能想到的一切，但我仍然在这里。
Right?
正确的？
So there's not much, because I have my mom's delusion, like when I talk to Joe, and he's shorter than me, but logically, I know he could probably kick my ass.
所以没什么，因为我有我妈妈的错觉，就像当我和乔说话时，他比我矮，但从逻辑上讲，我知道他可能会踢我的屁股。
I have no fighting background, but in my head, I'm like, "I'm pretty sure I could kick his ass." And he would fucking-- That's just the way I walk through life.
我没有战斗背景，但在我的脑海里，我想，“我很确定我可以踢他的屁股。”他会他妈的——这就是我走过的人生之路。
Like I still believe in Santa Claus.
就像我仍然相信圣诞老人一样。
People go, I can't believe I just said that.
人们走了，我不敢相信我刚刚这么说。
I think that's the first time publicly I've ever said that.
我想这是我第一次公开这么说。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We're coming up on-
我们即将到来——
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
No, I know
不，我知道
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
Christmas.
圣诞节。
By now, I'm sure that many of you have heard me say that I've been taking AG1 for more than a decade, and indeed, that's true.
到现在为止，我相信你们很多人都听我说过我服用 AG1 已有十多年了，确实如此。
The reason I started taking AG1 way back in 2012, and the reason why I still continue to take it every single day, is because AG1 is, to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market.
我早在 2012 年就开始服用 AG1，并且至今仍然每天服用，因为据我所知，AG1 是市场上质量最高、最全面的基础营养补充剂。
What that means is that it contains not just vitamins and minerals, but also probiotics, prebiotics, and adaptogens to cover any gaps that you might have in your diet, while also providing support for a demanding life.
这意味着它不仅含有维生素和矿物质，还含有益生菌、益生元和适应原，可以弥补您饮食中可能存在的任何不足，同时也为高要求的生活提供支持。
Given the probiotics and prebiotics in AG1, it also helps support a healthy gut microbiome.
鉴于 AG1 中的益生菌和益生元，它还有助于支持健康的肠道微生物组。
The gut microbiome consists of trillions of little microorganisms that line your digestive tract and impact things such as your immune status, your metabolic health, your hormone health, and much more.
肠道微生物组由数万亿个小微生物组成，它们排列在您的消化道中，并影响您的免疫状态、代谢健康、激素健康等。
Taking AG1 consistently helps my digestion, keeps my immune system strong, and it ensures that my mood and mental focus are always at their best.
持续服用 AG1 有助于我的消化，保持我的免疫系统强大，并确保我的情绪和精神焦点始终处于最佳状态。
AG1 is now available in three new flavors, berry, citrus, and tropical.
AG1 现已推出三种新口味：浆果味、柑橘味和热带味。
And while I've always loved the AG1 original flavor, especially with a bit of lemon juice added, I'm really enjoying the new berry flavor in particular.
虽然我一直很喜欢 AG1 原味，尤其是添加了一点柠檬汁，但我真的特别喜欢新的浆果味。
It tastes great, but then again, I do love all the flavors.
味道很棒，但话又说回来，我确实喜欢所有的口味。
If you'd like to try AG1 and try these new flavors, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1 并尝试这些新口味，您可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 申请特别优惠。
Just go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get started.
只需访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 即可开始。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
I just remember there's-- I don't know, it's changed now, but I remember when I was a kid, it was around six or seven when they start going, "There's no fucking Santa." But I was eight, and I was like...
我只记得有——我不知道，现在已经改变了，但我记得当我还是个孩子的时候，大约六七点的时候，他们开始说，“他妈的圣诞老人根本没有。”但当时我八岁了，我就像……
And they're like, "How dumb are you?" And I understand this reflects back to my mom and Jesus.
他们会说，“你有多蠢？”我明白这反映在我的妈妈和耶稣身上。
I go.
我去。
And they go, "But you've literally never got any presents from Santa.
他们说：“但是你实际上从未收到过圣诞老人的任何礼物。
How?" And I'd go to shame.
怎么办？”我会感到羞愧。
I go, because I'm a bad kid.
我去，因为我是个坏孩子。
I cussed.
我咒骂道。
I stole stuff from the supermarket.
我从超市偷了东西。
And they're like, "Hey, fuckface, Santa's not real." And I just was like, "But he is.
他们就像，“嘿，混蛋，圣诞老人不是真的。”我只是想，“但他是。
I believe that he is." And I believe, I go, "Him not giving me a present Because I put him in this God category.
我相信他是。”我相信，我说，“他没有给我礼物，因为我把他归入上帝的范畴。
Maybe he's not God, but maybe he's a god, like a demigod or something.
也许他不是神，但也许他是神，就像半神之类的。
And they go, "How does he know if you're naughty or nice?" I go, "Telepath." "How does he get every fucking present to every kid in that time?" I'm like, "Oh, he's a mutant.
他们会问，“他怎么知道你是淘气还是友善？”我说，“心灵感应”。 “那段时间他是怎么给每个孩子送每件该死的礼物的？”我想，“哦，他是个变种人。
He can multiply.
他可以繁殖。
He can make copies of himself." "How does he get through that tiny chimney?" I go, "Teleport." It's not even a question.
他可以复制自己。” “他是怎么穿过那个小烟囱的？” 我说，“传送。” 这甚至不是一个问题。
I just know I believe it, and I don't care how stupid you think.
我只知道我相信它，我不在乎你认为有多愚蠢。
I guess this is me coming out with my Santa Claus, but it's just like, I just believe that, and you can't say anything to make me not believe that.
我想这是我和我的圣诞老人一起出来的，但这就像，我只是相信这一点，你不能说什么让我不相信这一点。
That's my blind faith that I got from my mom.
这是我从妈妈那里得到的盲目信仰。
So, every Christmas, I'm almost 50.
所以，每年圣诞节，我就快50岁了。
I'm a fucking middle-aged man that-- And I go, maybe this is the year I'm going to-- But now I look back and I go, the gift he gave me of giving me nothing gave me everything.
我是个他妈的中年男人——我想，也许今年就是我要的——但现在我回首往事，我想，他给我的礼物，什么也没给我，却给了我一切。
Right?
对吗？
So I'm sitting there and I'm drawing, but I have that story in my head, too.
所以我坐在那里画画，但我脑子里也有这个故事。
Like, "I suck.
就像，“我很烂。
Oh, fuck.
哦，操。
That doesn't look like Batman.
这看起来不像蝙蝠侠。
Oh, his arm looks weird." And then at some point, to this day, all the physical and emotional pain, sorry, just the physical pain, it passes.
哦，他的手臂看起来很奇怪。”然后在某个时刻，直到今天，所有身体和情感上的痛苦，抱歉，只是身体上的痛苦，都过去了。
I've broken bones.
我骨折了。
I've had my face just pummeled, just where you wouldn't recognize-- Disfigured.
我的脸刚刚被打过，就在你认不出的地方——毁容了。
But it passes, and if I think back, I don't remember it.
但它过去了，如果我回想起来，我不记得了。
But the pain that stays is heartbreak, betrayal, abandonment.
但留下的痛苦是心碎、背叛、遗弃。
And I just remember my dad would make us keep a journal, because he just wanted us to start learning how to write.
我只记得我爸爸会让我们写日记，因为他只是希望我们开始学习如何写作。
And it started with, "If I take you guys to the movies, you have to write a movie review." And it was like we were eight years old, seven years old, just, "Today we saw 'Karate Kid.' Johnny got chased by skeletons.
开头是：“如果我带你们去看电影，你们就必须写一篇影评。”就像我们八岁、七岁一样，“今天我们看了《空手道小子》。”约翰尼被骷髅追赶。
The end." It was like a little kid.
结局了。”就像一个小孩子一样。
But he's like, "You have to do it." "Goonies was cool." So we kept a thing.
但他说：“你必须这么做。” “古尼很酷。”所以我们保留了一个东西。
But then he never asked to read it.
但后来他再也没有要求读这本书。
He just wanted us to do it.
他只是想让我们这么做。
And I was like, oh.
我当时想，哦。
So I started getting more brave.
于是我开始变得更加勇敢。
I was like, "I really like this girl at school." And I would just start getting really vulnerable and open and just knowing because my brothers don't give a shit.
我当时想，“我真的很喜欢学校里的这个女孩。”我会开始变得非常脆弱和开放，只是知道，因为我的兄弟们不在乎。
But then the thought of what if someone ever read this?
但转念一想，如果有人读过这篇文章怎么办？
So I was opening myself up and just letting-- And I was like, oh, my God.
所以我敞开心扉，让——我当时想，哦，天啊。
It felt so good.
感觉真好。
I can't tell anyone I'm having these kind of feelings or I fucking hate Dad , whatever.
我不能告诉任何人我有这种感觉，或者我他妈的讨厌爸爸，无论如何。
And I would take the bottom drawer out of my desk out and I would hide it under there.
我会把桌子最下面的抽屉拿出来，然后把它藏在下面。
And I shared a room with my brother, so I always did it when he-- I thought I was being secretive.
我和我哥哥共用一个房间，所以当他——我认为我在保密时，我总是这样做。
And I was somewhere between seven, eight, nine.
我大概在七、八、九之间。
As you get better at writing and I got more-- Once I got more comfortable knowing that no one, I just started writing everything.
随着你的写作能力越来越强，我也得到了更多——一旦我知道没有人更舒服，我就开始写所有的东西。
Like, my brother's fucking fart smell.
就像，我哥哥的屁味。
Just everything I would write.
就是我要写的一切。
Just completely .
就彻底了。
And I came one day and I saw both my brothers on the bed reading it, and I remember my face just felt so hot.
有一天，我来了，看到我的两个兄弟在床上读这本书，我记得我的脸感觉很热。
I felt like someone had just-- Ultimate betrayal.
我觉得有人刚刚——最终的背叛。
And it was like being naked.
这就像赤身裸体。
That's why I bring up the-- I felt more naked than being in a room full of naked guys showering, slapping.
这就是为什么我提出——我感觉比在一个满是裸体男人洗澡、打耳光的房间里更裸体。
It was the most vulnerable.
这是最脆弱的。
They were being so merciless.
他们是如此无情。
"You like her and you did that.
“你喜欢她，你就这么做了。
I can't believe you've-- " Because I wrote everything in that journal, and I thought I was going to die from shame and embarrassment.
我不敢相信你——”因为我把所有的事情都写在了那本日记里，我以为我会因羞耻和尴尬而死去。
And the way kids are, brothers can be.
孩子就是这样，兄弟也可以是这样。
It was merciless.
这是无情的。
And they made fun of me for years for that.
他们为此取笑我很多年。
And in the same way my face was disfigured and I've had physical abuse and all that, I lived through it.
同样地，我的脸被毁容了，我也遭受过身体虐待，所有这些我都经历过。
And I was like, I'm still here.
我当时想，我还在这里。
And so why the fuck am I going to be a pussy when I draw?
那为什么我画画的时候会变成一个娘们呢？
When I draw, no more like I'm going to draw Batman like this artist or that artist.
当我画画时，我不再像这个艺术家或那个艺术家那样画蝙蝠侠。
Oh, I'm going to draw like-- Okay, that's fine.
哦，我要画像——好吧，没关系。
You're trying to figure out how to work with tools, and that's fine.
您正在尝试弄清楚如何使用工具，这很好。
Skillcraft, great.
手艺不错，棒棒哒
But this, showing you-- I had been trained now for heartbreak.
但这，向你展示了——我现在已经接受了心碎的训练。
Right?
对吗？
A lot of artists spend their whole life being not validated, bullied, rejected, and then finally they figure out how to draw something where people are like, "Yes, we like that." And so they never grow.
很多艺术家一生都没有被认可、被欺负、被拒绝，最后他们找到了如何画出人们喜欢的东西，“是的，我们喜欢那样。”所以它们永远不会成长。
They do that same verse, that same flow forever.
他们永远唱着同样的诗句，同样的流动。
And then you got people like Andre 3000, they're like, "I don't care what-- I'm going to do flute shit." It's like, well, we don't like that.
然后还有像 Andre 3000 这样的人，他们会说，“我不在乎什么——我要做长笛。”就像，好吧，我们不喜欢那样。
And he's like, "I don't care.
他说：“我不在乎。
I'm an artist.
我是一名艺术家。
I'm going to-- "You got someone like Flea who's like, "I'm going to just do performance art." And I'm like, I don't even like half that shit, but I just love them because they're-- And I go, how fucking brave is that?
我会——“像 Flea 这样的人会说，“我只想做行为艺术。”我想，我什至不喜欢那些狗屎，但我就是爱他们，因为他们——我说，那他妈的有多勇敢？
How brave is that?
这是多么勇敢的事啊？
But I remember just to this day, right?
但我直到今天还记得，对吧？
I am a very successful, established artist, and yet today there's people that are like, "That's the fucking worst art I've ever seen." And I go, cool.
我是一位非常成功、成熟的艺术家，但今天有人会说，“这是我见过的最糟糕的艺术。”我走了，酷。
But if you don't have that background of just having your heart ripped out, it is the most painful thing to put yourself out on a-- to pour your-- That's you.
但如果你没有那种把你的心掏出来的背景，那么把自己放在一个——倾倒你的——那就是你身上是最痛苦的事情。
That's your soul, and someone's like-- And then especially if you're trying to sell it, they're like, "No, thanks." So to have a guy like Sean Parker, who's younger than me, but just Not even the art.
那是你的灵魂，有人会说——尤其是当你想卖掉它时，他们会说，“不，谢谢。”所以有一个像肖恩·帕克这样的人，他比我年轻，但连艺术都不是。
He's just like: "I like you, whatever that is." And then I want to change the world with this kid that I met, Mark Zuckerberg.
他只是说：“我喜欢你，不管那是什么。”然后我想和我遇到的这个孩子马克·扎克伯格一起改变世界。
And so I meet him with his flip-flops and then I meet the whole crew and I go: "What do you want me to do?" And he's like: "I want you to fucking paint everything.
所以我会见了穿着人字拖的他，然后我会见了全体工作人员，我说：“你们想让我做什么？”他说：“我他妈的想让你把所有东西都画出来。
I want people to be scared.
我希望人们感到害怕。
I want investors to be scared.
我希望投资者感到害怕。
I want everyone to just be like, 'We're not Myspace, we're not eBay.' I want them to be horrified when they come in here.
我希望每个人都说，“我们不是 Myspace，我们不是 eBay。”我希望他们来到这里时感到震惊。
I want you to just fucking paint the microwave, everything." And I go: "Indoors, right?" And he goes: "Yeah." And I go: "All right.
我要你他妈的给微波炉涂漆，所有的东西。”我说：“在室内，对吗？”他说：“是的。”我说：“好吧。
So just cover up your computers and then..." They're like: "No, we're going to be working here." And I'm like: "You know how toxic these chemical-- I work in spray paint, I have brain damage because of this shit.
所以，只要把你的电脑盖起来，然后……”他们会说：“不，我们要在这里工作。”我会说：“你知道这些化学物质的毒性有多大——我在喷漆行业工作，因为这些东西我的大脑受到了损伤。
I have memory issues." They're like: "We don't care." They were young, they're like: "Fuck the world, hack the world," all that shit.
我有记忆问题。”他们就像：“我们不在乎。”他们很年轻，他们就像：“去他妈的世界，黑掉世界，”所有这些狗屎。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hack the world .
破解世界。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
They love saying-
他们喜欢说——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, my goodness
哦，我的天哪
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
...
...
so I was there, and they would be like: "Let's fucking blast Daft Punk." This is a world I'm not f-- I like going into different worlds, and they're like: "We're going to blast Daft Punk," because I guess it's something with the repetitiveness and the coding.
所以我就在那里，他们会说：“让我们他妈的炸掉傻朋克吧。”这是一个我不是的世界——我喜欢进入不同的世界，他们就像是：“我们要摧毁愚蠢的朋克”，因为我猜这是一些重复性和编码的东西。
"And we're going to do these hackathons where we just fucking hack into shit and fucking..." It was punk rock.
“我们将举办这些黑客马拉松，我们只是他妈地黑客攻击，然后他妈的……”那是朋克摇滚。
It was a very nerdy punk rock.
这是一种非常书呆子的朋克摇滚。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
But they're like: "We don't give a fuck." And I like that spirit-
但他们的反应是：“我们才不在乎呢。”我喜欢这种精神——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
...
...
but they were such nerds, and they were so earnest.
但他们是如此的书呆子，而且他们是如此的认真。
You've never heard people talk like that, where they're talking, they're like: "And we're going to change the world." And I'm like: "I'm into that, whatever that is." And they thought they were so cool when they thought they were giving me a Stanford email.
你从来没有听过人们这样说话，他们说话的时候就像是：“我们将改变世界。”我说：“我很喜欢这个，不管那是什么。”当他们以为自己给我发了一封斯坦福大学的电子邮件时，他们觉得自己太酷了。
Because I'm not on social media.
因为我不上社交媒体。
I'm a Luddite.
我是勒德分子。
I'm the last to whatever new technology, I'm like, "All right." I've never touched AI, any of that.
无论什么新技术，我都是最后一个，我会说，“好吧。”我从来没有接触过人工智能，任何一个。
And so I was like: "You guys are trying to be like Myspace?
所以我就想：“你们想像 Myspace 那样吗？
But Myspace, it's already here." For the young people listening, there was no Facebook, there was no Instagram.
但 Myspace，它已经来了。”对于聆听的年轻人来说，没有 Facebook，没有 Instagram。
It was Myspace.
那是 Myspace。
It just dominated.
它只是占主导地位。
And they're like: "Yeah, but we're fucking Myspace for Ivy League, Harvard."
他们的反应是：“是的，但我们他妈的是哈佛常春藤盟校的 Myspace。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, that's right.
哦，是这样。
In 2007, that's right, because I was a postdoc.
2007年，是的，因为我是博士后。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
That's how it started.
事情就是这样开始的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In order to get Facebook, you had to have-
为了获得 Facebook，你必须-
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
It was-
那是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
an Ivy League or a Stanford email.
常春藤盟校或斯坦福大学的电子邮件。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But technically Stanford's not in the Ivy League.
但从技术上讲，斯坦福大学并不属于常春藤盟校。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
So you're not the only one, motherfucker.
所以你不是唯一一个，混蛋。
Stolen valor.
被盗的勇气。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love it.
我喜欢它。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
So I forgot what it was.
所以我忘记了那是什么。
It was like choe@stanford.edu.
就像choe@stanford.edu。
But I remember he gave it-
但我记得他给了——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Probably still exists.
也许仍然存在。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
I don't know.
我不知道。
I remember him giving it to me like it's something I wanted.
我记得他把它给了我，就像这是我想要的东西一样。
I was just painting and he's like: "Dave, you don't have to go.
我当时正在画画，他说：“戴夫，你不必走。
I'll get you a Stanford email, and then you can be part of Facebook." I'm like: "I don't care.
我会给你发一封斯坦福大学的电子邮件，然后你就可以成为 Facebook 的一员了。”我的反应是：“我不在乎。
You want to be, you and Mark, and all these guys want to be in this like..." And he was confused because he's like: "You don't want the whatever respect and whatever comes with having a Stanford..." And I go: "No, I hate education.
你想成为，你和马克，所有这些人都想成为这样的人……”他很困惑，因为他就像：“你不想要斯坦福大学带来的任何尊重和任何东西……”我说：“不，我讨厌教育。
I hate learning.
我讨厌学习。
I hate teachers.
我讨厌老师。
What the fuck are you talking about?" And he was like-- I go: "Why don't you just make it for everybody?" And he's like: "Oh." The thing is, it was so funny when the David Fincher movie came out because it's just an awesome movie, but I was there for all of it and just did not-- Some of the facts are right, but it just didn't go down that way.
你他妈的在说什么？”他说——我说：“你为什么不为每个人制作它？”他说：“哦。”问题是，当大卫·芬奇的电影上映时，这太有趣了，因为它只是一部很棒的电影，但我全程都在场，只是没有——有些事实是对的，但它只是没有那样发展。
So Mark is a genius.
所以马克是个天才。
And Sean, similar to my mother, it's like I think Naomi's still there.
肖恩，就像我母亲一样，我认为内奥米还在那里。
It was Naomi, Mark, Sean, Dustin, and me just gassing them out.
娜奥米、马克、肖恩、达斯汀和我正在用毒气把他们逼死。
They're just trying to code, and I'm listening to all their conversations, and I'm telling them how nerdy they are.
他们只是想编码，而我正在听他们所有的谈话，我告诉他们他们是多么的书呆子。
I'm like: "Bro, make it for everybody." And I would listen in on all their conversations.
我想：“兄弟，为大家做吧。”我会偷听他们所有的谈话。
They're like: "That's so fucking cool, Dave.
他们会说：“这太他妈酷了，戴夫。
Joe's painting our office." And I was like: "Oh, they like me." I'm being validated, not just by my mother.
乔正在粉刷我们的办公室。”我当时想：“哦，他们喜欢我。”我得到了认可，而不仅仅是我母亲的认可。
And so I do everything backwards, and we start to discuss payment.
所以我把一切都倒过来，我们开始讨论付款问题。
And at that time, I had once in my life sold a painting for 10 grand, and it was a fluke.
当时，我一生中曾经有过一次把一幅画卖到10块钱的经历，那是一次侥幸。
And that's another story that I could tell about rejection and all that.
这是我可以讲述的另一个关于拒绝之类的故事。
So I just did some dumb, ignorant math.
所以我只是做了一些愚蠢、无知的数学。
I was like: "Well, that painting was this big, and I'm painting..." I was like: "60 grand." And I needed that.
我当时想：“嗯，那幅画有这么大，而我正在画……”我当时想：“60大。”我需要那个。
I needed that to pay off everyone.
我需要这个来偿还每个人的钱。
And then at the time, up until going to jail, I had been a thief.
当时，直到进监狱之前，我一直是个小偷。
I was doing a lot of stealing to support my-- I was like, "Graffiti doesn't pay the bills."
我做了很多偷窃来养活我的——我当时想，“涂鸦不能支付账单。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Stealing your paint?
偷你的油漆？
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Stealing everything.
偷走一切。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Was Facebook office painted with stolen cans?
Facebook 办公室是否被偷来的罐子涂满了？
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Probably.
可能吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Probably.
可能吧。
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
My graf friends, graffiti for those that don't know.
我的涂鸦朋友们，为那些不知道的人涂鸦。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They were world-class crooks.
他们是世界级的骗子。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah, of course.
是的，当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because they were always stealing pens and paint and, I mean, they-
因为他们总是偷钢笔和油漆，我的意思是，他们——
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Exactly.
正是如此。
It doesn't pay the bills.
它不支付账单。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
So what had transferred, the nature of addiction is if you don't get to the root of it, it just keeps jumping, right?
那么，已经转移的东西，成瘾的本质是，如果你不找到它的根源，它就会不断跳跃，对吧？
Like Whac-A-Mole.
就像打地鼠一样。
So it Whac-A-Mole'd into my background, which is watching my parents take huge-- So I got into gambling.
所以打地鼠游戏融入了我的背景，那就是看着我的父母拿大钱——所以我开始赌博。
Every paycheck, anything, it was always, I got to figure out a way, because gambling feels like stealing.
每一份薪水，任何事情，我总是必须想出办法，因为赌博就像偷窃。
And I sat there, and people were just like: "You work at Facebook?" My friends that aren't in that academia, they're just like: "That's like the The shitty MySpace.
我坐在那里，人们就问：“你在 Facebook 工作吗？”我那些不在学术界的朋友们会说：“那就像糟糕的 MySpace。
Look at the font, look at all the artsy, look at the designs.
看看字体，看看所有的艺术气息，看看设计。
Fucking what is that?
他妈的那是什么？
The name Facebook.
名字是脸书。
Come on.
快点。
That's the most creative...
这才是最有创意的...
And I said, "I think I'm going to ask them if I could get shares in the company."
我说：“我想我会问他们我是否可以获得公司的股份。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Did you understand equity and that whole thing?
你了解公平和整个事情吗？
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
No, I don't understand any of it.
不，我一点也不明白。
And then it's like I have shares in other companies that are all worthless.
然后就好像我持有的其他公司的股票都一文不值了。
It was growing up with my mom, watching her, that if I didn't have that, I just...
是和我妈妈一起长大的，看着她，如果我没有这样的经历，我就……
And I don't even understand that shit, I just...
我什至不明白这些狗屎，我只是......
I remember having lunch with Zuck's parents, and he comes from a nice family.
我记得和扎克的父母共进午餐，他来自一个很好的家庭。
And I think Yahoo or Microsoft, someone had offered him right in the beginning a billion dollars for it, and he's like, "No, thanks." And he's still sleeping on the fucking mattress on the ground eating Doritos, and I'm trying to pay all my friends back.
我认为雅虎或微软，有人一开始就向他提供了 10 亿美元的报价，他说，“不，谢谢。”他还在地上他妈的床垫上睡着，吃着多力多滋，而我正在努力偿还我所有的朋友。
And I'm like, "Oh, he doesn't give a shit.
我就想，“哦，他根本不在乎。
He doesn't care about money.
他不关心钱。
He cares about what he cares about." It's such a singular focus.
他关心他关心的事情。”这是一个如此单一的焦点。
He's like, "I want to fucking disrupt the...
他就像是，“我他妈的想破坏……
I want to bring the whole world together." It was youthful idealism.
我想把整个世界团结在一起。”这是年轻时的理想主义。
And I remember going to work one day.
我记得有一天去上班。
I just loved working there because I don't get jobs like that where they're like, "Paint everything." You're here doing this, and I'm painting around on everything.
我只是喜欢在那里工作，因为我找不到那样的工作，他们会说“把所有东西都画上”。你在这里做这件事，而我则在一切事情上作画。
And the best part is that they didn't even like what I was painting.
最好的部分是他们甚至不喜欢我画的东西。
Mark would come, and he's like, "What is that, dude?" Sean's like, "Dave, you know that other thing you did I saw at the art show?
马克会来，他会说：“那是什么，伙计？”肖恩说：“戴夫，你知道我在艺术展上看到你做的另一件事吗？
Can you..." And I was like, "You didn't ask for that.
你能……”我说，“你没有要求这个。
You said fucking destroy, you said scare people when they walk."
你说他妈的破坏，你说吓唬走路的人。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As I recall, there was a big primate monkey with jagged teeth and some crazy-
我记得，有一只大灵长类猴子，牙齿呈锯齿状，有些疯狂——
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah.
是的。
And I was gassing myself out.
我正在气喘吁吁。
I'm doing all that shit without a mask on.
我在不戴口罩的情况下做所有这些事。
It's all going right into my brain.
这一切都直接进入我的大脑。
I'm like, whatever toxic spray paint fumes does to your brain, and there's no fresh air coming in.
我想，无论有毒喷漆烟雾对你的大脑有什么影响，而且没有新鲜空气进来。
And I remember Sean Parker, just bronze skin, like $200 haircut, custom suit, and I go, "Who are you, man?" And he was doing what my mom was doing.
我记得肖恩·帕克（Sean Parker），古铜色的皮肤，200 美元的发型，定制的西装，我说：“你是谁，伙计？”他正在做我妈妈正在做的事情。
He was just fucking doing push-ups, and I was like, this skinny little nerd, just is handsome.
他他妈的只是在做俯卧撑，我就想，这个瘦小的书呆子，真是帅极了。
And I go, "Oh, this is what my mom used to do before she went into a bitch.
我说：“哦，这就是我妈妈在变成婊子之前经常做的事情。
She used to fucking..." And he's like, "Oh, we're going to fucking raise some money." And I go, "Holy fuck.
她以前他妈的……”他说，“哦，我们他妈的要筹集一些钱。”我说：“天哪。
This guy's so sick." And he transformed his physical appearance because he was about to go into serious fundraising.
这家伙病得很重。”他改变了自己的外貌，因为他即将开始认真的筹款活动。
And that's when I met the PayPal guy and Peter Thiel, and I was like, this guy's fucking...
就在那时我遇到了 PayPal 的人和 Peter Thiel，我就想，这家伙他妈的……
People give all the credit to Mark, but I'm like, Sean, he was an artist and also out of control, which that attracted each other.
人们把所有的功劳都归功于马克，但我想，肖恩，他是一位艺术家，而且也失控，这吸引了彼此。
And then he was there when he got fired and all that stuff.
然后当他被解雇之类的时候他就在那里。
But I remember the impact that had on me, just wow.
但我记得这对我的影响，哇。
You've heard the fake it till you make it, right?
在你成功之前你都听说过假的，对吧？
It's like I know I'm not the best artist in the world, but my mom thinks so.
就好像我知道我不是世界上最好的艺术家，但我妈妈这么认为。
But Sean Parker, other people think so.
但肖恩·帕克，其他人也这么认为。
But I'm like, but that's whatever.
但我想，但那也无所谓。
They're just kissing my ass or whatever.
他们只是在亲我的屁股什么的。
And then there can be a switch, and I think it's like sick and tired of being sick and tired or enough is enough.
然后可能会有一个转变，我认为这就像厌倦了生病和厌倦，或者足够了。
I just can't take it anymore.
我实在受不了了。
It's like, well, I can't live like this anymore.
就好像，好吧，我不能再这样生活了。
I feel like I'm trapped.
我感觉自己被困住了。
And so then it's like, "Oh, you can't travel.
然后就像是，“哦，你不能旅行。
You need money for that." Well, I'm going to hitchhike then.
为此你需要钱。”嗯，那我就去搭便车了。
I'm going to hop on a freight train.
我要跳上货运列车。
I saw the entire world with nothing, no money.
我看到了整个世界，一无所有，没有钱。
Like, "Well, it must be nice to be rich." I go, "I'm rich now." I've had nothing my whole life, and I just had to fucking fight for it.
就像，“嗯，有钱一定很好。”我说：“我现在很有钱了。”我这辈子一无所有，我只能靠自己的努力去争取。
And would I recommend it?
我会推荐它吗？
A lot of it was illegal.
其中很多都是非法的。
I spent a lot of time in jail, but also jail didn't hurt me.
我在监狱里度过了很多时间，但监狱并没有伤害我。
I lived, and I spent some time there.
我住在那里，并在那里度过了一段时间。
I got to learn who I am.
我必须了解我是谁。
And so it's just to piece out the skills you learn for what's creativity, what's business, what aided me and helped me at this time in my life that which no longer aids me now, and how to...
所以这只是为了找出你学到的技能，什么是创造力，什么是商业，什么在我生命中的这个时候帮助过我，什么现在不再帮助我，以及如何......
Because the other thing I learned from my mom is just adapts.
因为我从妈妈那里学到的另一件事就是适应。
Oh, our business just burned down in the LA riots.
哦，我们的生意刚刚在洛杉矶骚乱中被烧毁。
And instead of sitting there, it was like, "Okay, now we're doing this.
而不是坐在那里，而是像，“好吧，现在我们正在这样做。
Now we're doing this.
现在我们正在做这个。
Now we're doing this." And I'm like, I remember getting a job in Beverly Hills right after high school.
现在我们正在做这个。”我想，我记得高中毕业后就在比佛利山庄找到了一份工作。
I was 18, 1994.
1994年，我18岁。
And it was at this weird comic book, like a high-end comic book store called Comics Top Hits.
就在这本奇怪的漫画书里，就像一家名为 Comics Top Hits 的高端漫画书店。
I'm a comic book guy.
我是一个看漫画的人。
I love comics.
我喜欢漫画。
And I remember I begged the guy for a job.
我记得我向那家伙求过一份工作。
I'm like, "Please, please." And he's like, "All right, fine." The customer seemed...
我就像，“求你了，求你了。”他说：“好吧，好吧。”这位顾客似乎...
Because I would just hang out there and talk to the customers anyways.
因为无论如何我都会在那里闲逛并与顾客交谈。
And I remember one day, Stan Lee showed up, and I'm like, "Fuck, Stan Lee, my hero." And he sat there, and people were bringing him "Darkwing Duck," "Batman," "Archie," all the things he didn't work on.
我记得有一天，斯坦·李出现了，我说，“操，斯坦·李，我的英雄。”他坐在那里，人们给他带来了《黑翼鸭》、《蝙蝠侠》、《阿奇》，以及所有他没有参与的作品。
Hey, Marvel fans.
嘿，漫威粉丝们。
And he'd just sign everything, and I was the guy managing the line that day, and I'm looking at his hair plugs, and I go, "You didn't fucking invent Batman." And at the end of the day, I built up enough confidence to, as everyone left and we're packing up, I'm like, "Stan, dude, you didn't invent Batman.
他会签下所有的东西，而我就是那天负责排队的人，我看着他的发夹，然后我说，“蝙蝠侠不是你发明的。”一天结束时，我建立了足够的信心，当每个人都离开，我们收拾行李时，我说，“斯坦，伙计，你没有发明蝙蝠侠。
Why the fuck you sign that guy's book?" And he's like, "Did you see their faces?
你他妈的为什么要在那个家伙的书上签名？”他说：“你看到他们的脸了吗？
Did you see?
你看到了吗？
They were so happy.
他们很高兴。
Why would I get in the way of their happiness?" And I'm like Holy shit, dude.
我为什么要妨碍他们的幸福呢？”我就像天哪，伙计。
He's like, "Yeah, don't correct people." And I thought about that.
他就像是，“是的，不要纠正别人。”我想到了这一点。
Everywhere I go in the world and there's like, "Ching chong, China." I remember being in Africa, and these kids were just chasing us everywhere going, "Ching chong." And our translator was a French Vietnamese guy, and he was like, "Dave's Korean.
无论我走到世界的哪个地方，都会有这样的声音：“中国，清冲”。我记得在非洲，这些孩子到处追赶我们，“Ching chong”。我们的翻译是一位法国越南人，他说，“戴夫是韩国人。
I'm Vietnam." It's like they don't give a shit, dude.
我是越南。”就好像他们根本不在乎，伙计。
They don't give a fuck.
他们根本不在乎。
And I remember just the things I'm talking about is watching Sean Parker shapeshift, watching my mom shapeshift, watching-- Act as if you belong.
我记得我正在谈论的事情就是看着肖恩·帕克变形，看着我妈妈变形，看着——表现得好像你属于这里一样。
Act as if you have a seat at the table.
表现得好像你在餐桌上有座位一样。
It's like, "Oh, no fucking way." It's like I know that's part of being an artist is being shy, nerdy, oh, self-conscious.
就像是，“哦，他妈的没办法。”就好像我知道作为一名艺术家的一部分就是害羞、书呆子、哦、自我意识。
It's like just pretend like you're the best artist in the world.
这就像假装你是世界上最好的艺术家一样。
You just show up and you're like, put like this is the journey from their head to heart.
你只要出现，就会觉得，这就是他们从头脑到心灵的旅程。
I like when you talk because you make sense.
我喜欢你说话，因为你很有道理。
And that's why the smartest people in the world are the dumbest fucking idiots I've met because they try to apply logic to everything.
这就是为什么世界上最聪明的人是我见过的最愚蠢的白痴，因为他们试图将逻辑应用于一切。
And you're applying logic to spiritual problems.
你正在将逻辑应用于精神问题。
You're applying logic to emotional problems, and it's like, how's that working out for you?
你将逻辑应用于情感问题，这对你来说效果如何？
It's not.
它不是。
You're never going to outthink a feeling.
你永远无法超越感觉。
You're never going to outsmart a feeling.
你永远不会比感觉更聪明。
And you're like, "Wait, these people are acting-- Like who would do that?
你会说，“等等，这些人正在表演——谁会这么做？
Why would you do that?" And I'm like, "Because it's not logical." It's an emotional thing.
你为什么要这么做？”我想，“因为这不合逻辑。”这是一件情绪化的事情。
It's a mentally ill, whatever it is.
无论如何，这都是一个精神病患者。
It's not logic-based, it's emotion-based.
它不是基于逻辑的，而是基于情感的。
It's mentally ill based.
这是有精神病基础的。
It's spiritual based.
这是基于精神的。
You can't fuck with people's religion or what they have faith in and all this stuff.
你不能玩弄人们的宗教或他们所信仰的东西以及所有这些东西。
So I'm watching, I remember going, "Stefan correcting the Black kids that he's Vietnamese is making them feel stupid, and they're getting angrier." The kids that think I'm Bruce Lee, and I just confirmed that I'm Bruce Lee are getting happy.
所以我在看，我记得我说过，“斯特凡纠正黑人孩子他是越南人让他们感到愚蠢，他们变得更加愤怒。”那些认为我是李小龙的孩子们，以及我刚刚确认我是李小龙的人，都变得很高兴。
Right?
正确的？
It's like people are dumb out there.
就好像外面的人都是傻子一样。
That's fine.
没关系。
I don't care.
我不在乎。
I'm dumb.
我很笨。
I'm stupid.
我很傻。
It's like when someone corrects me, it makes me feel shame and dumber.
就像当有人纠正我时，我会感到羞耻和愚蠢。
But then if no one corrects me, it's like, then it's my own shit to figure that out or not, right?
但如果没有人纠正我，那就好像是我自己弄清楚或不明白这一点，对吗？
So watching these people, very successful people in my life, my mom, she's unstoppable, right?
所以看着这些人，我生命中非常成功的人，我的妈妈，她是势不可挡的，对吧？
Anything the world throws at her, she just goes, "Okay, I guess we're doing this now." She doesn't hang on.
无论世界向她扔什么，她都会说：“好吧，我想我们现在就这样做。”她没有坚持下去。
She's like, "Hang on tightly, let go lightly." Right?
她就像是，“紧紧抓住，轻轻放手”。正确的？
So it's like, okay, we were real estate people, now we're doing Herbalife.
所以这就好像，好吧，我们是房地产人，现在我们在做康宝莱。
Oh, that happened, Mark Hughes died.
哦，事情发生了，马克·休斯死了。
Okay, now we're doing this.
好的，现在我们正在做这个。
She just goes like that, adapts to any situation.
她就是这样，适应任何情况。
And right now, I get a call a week from all artists, creative types that there, and we don't have to have an AI talk.
现在，我每周都会接到所有艺术家、创意类型人士的电话，我们不需要进行人工智能演讲。
I would rather not have an AI talk, but it's Armageddon, right?
我不想进行人工智能演讲，但这是世界末日，对吧？
Everyone's like, "I spent my life doing sound engineering, and now it's gone." Just like the guy who would do the hand letter this and then Photoshop, boom, your job's gone.
每个人都会说，“我一生都在做声音工程，但现在它消失了。”就像那个先手写信函然后用 Photoshop 处理的人一样，嘭，你的工作就丢了。
The Carl Zeiss lens go on the iPhone, and now a photographer.
卡尔蔡司镜头安装在 iPhone 上，现在又安装在摄影师身上。
Like it's just gone.
就像它刚刚消失一样。
You could sit there and start complaining, or you could just keep adapting.
你可以坐在那里开始抱怨，或者你可以继续适应。
And so I think true creativity you can't contain.
所以我认为真正的创造力是你无法遏制的。
If you're open and you're ready to get naked and you're ready to, people are like, "Oh, do you have to suffer to be a great artist?" Absolutely, but you've already suffered enough.
如果你是开放的，你准备好赤身裸体，人们会说，“哦，你必须受苦才能成为一名伟大的艺术家吗？”当然可以，但你已经受够了。
It's already done.
已经完成了。
Whatever happened to you in your childhood, that's enough fuel for the rest of-- You don't have to continually.
无论你童年时发生了什么，这都足以为你的其余部分提供动力——你不必一直这样做。
But I see myself and others at times, I hopefully am better now, but I see people continually putting themselves in the situation to suffer more and more and more.
但我有时会看到自己和其他人，我希望现在好多了，但我看到人们不断地将自己置于遭受越来越多痛苦的境地。
And I just remember the shame of, it's just these things, they're decades ago, but they're still like, my dad just throwing me across.
我只记得耻辱，就是这些事情，它们是几十年前的事了，但它们仍然像，我爸爸只是把我扔了过去。
Like we left another country so you could be a criminal?
就像我们离开另一个国家让你成为罪犯一样？
A van?
一辆面包车？
He was like, "I'll just kill us all now." We were in the car leaving the police station.
他说：“我现在就把我们都杀了。”我们坐车离开警察局。
He's like, "I'm going to crash the car." And I was like, I was in the back, kind of disassociating, numb, crying, feeling mixed emotions, going from victim to sorry to like, "Well, fuck you then," and everything in between.
他说：“我要撞车了。”我就像，我在后面，有点脱离，麻木，哭泣，感觉复杂的情绪，从受害者到抱歉到喜欢，“好吧，操你，”以及介于两者之间的一切。
And then, just going, I accept now.
然后，就走吧，我现在接受了。
Oops.
哎呀。
I accept.
我接受。
Sorry, am I close enough to the microphone?
抱歉，我离麦克风够近吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're good.
你很好。
You're good.
你很厉害。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Am I close to the microphone?
我靠近麦克风吗？
Just going, I'm going to choose to believe what my mom believes in me.
只是走吧，我会选择相信我妈妈对我的信念。
I'm the greatest artist on the planet.
我是这个星球上最伟大的艺术家。
I was in my 20s, I was like, "Fuck it." Going into galleries, looking at comic books, and can I tell you one quick fuck you Sean Parker story?
当时我20多岁，我当时想，“去他妈的。”走进画廊，看漫画书，我可以给你讲一个他妈的肖恩·帕克的故事吗？
So at the time I was doing Facebook, things were happening.
所以当我做 Facebook 的时候，事情正在发生。
I had a Vice show selling my jail art, which gave me a little bit of cash.
我举办了一场 Vice 展览，出售我的监狱艺术品，这给了我一点现金。
I was starting to work for Heidi Fleiss to do an erotic mural for her sex shop in Hollywood.
我开始为海蒂·弗莱斯工作，为她在好莱坞的性用品商店制作一幅色情壁画。
And I had just gotten a job to do Jay-Z, Linkin Park's mashup album cover, and it's like I needed the money, and it was just like, I was like, "It's starting to happen." And this is while I was doing the Facebook thing, so they hadn't blown up yet.
我刚刚找到了一份工作，为 Linkin Park 的混搭专辑 Jay-Z 制作封面，就好像我需要钱一样，我当时想，“这一切开始发生了。”当时我正在做 Facebook 的事情，所以它们还没有爆炸。
And they gave me the job, and I'm like, "The biggest rock band in the world and the biggest rapper in the world are doing an album together, and they want me, little old me to do the..." I felt so honored.
他们给了我这份工作，我想，“世界上最大的摇滚乐队和世界上最大的说唱歌手正在一起制作一张专辑，他们希望我，小老我来做……”我感到非常荣幸。
They fucking butchered the art.
他们他妈的屠杀了艺术。
I gave them the art, and they just made it look shitty.
我给了他们艺术，但他们只是让它看起来很糟糕。
They put a shitty font on it.
他们在上面放了一个糟糕的字体。
They did fake graffiti spray.
他们做了假涂鸦喷雾。
I was like, "What the fuck did you..." Whatever.
我当时想，“你他妈的做了什么……”随便吧。
Anyways, that's a whole other thing.
无论如何，那是另一回事。
But I'm like, "Cool, what's that going to pay?" And they're like, "Two grand." And I'm like It's like this, "One day I'm going to make it, and my name's going to be in lights." And I knew other artists, so Mir did the Limp Bizkit cover, Shepard Fairey did-- So I knew them well enough where I was like, "Hey, guys, am I getting fucked right now?" And they're like, "No, that's typical." I go, "That's what they pay artists for?" Because back in the day when I was doing art, paintings, whatever, galleries or illustrations, that was the range, 200 to 2,000 at the most if you're doing a cover or something.
但我想，“酷，那要付多少钱？”他们就像，“两个伟大的。”我就像这样，“总有一天我会成功，我的名字将会被人们所铭记。”我认识其他艺术家，所以 Mir 做了 Limp Bizkit 的封面，Shepard Fairey 也做了——所以我对他们足够了解，我当时想，“嘿，伙计们，我现在被操了吗？”他们会说，“不，这是典型的。”我说：“这就是他们付钱给艺术家的原因？”因为在我做艺术、绘画、画廊或插图的时候，这个范围是最多 200 到 2,000，如果你做封面或其他东西的话。
But I'm like, "An album cover for..." And they're like, "No, that's what they pay." And I was like, "Damn, dude, I thought this is big time." And so I negotiated for that.
但我想，“专辑封面......”而他们就像，“不，这就是他们付的钱。”我当时想，“该死，伙计，我认为这是一个伟大的时刻。”所以我为此进行了谈判。
At the same time, I'm working at Facebook, and I drew this crazy cover, and they're like, "Yeah, that's for the rights for the album cover." Right?
与此同时，我在 Facebook 工作，我画了这个疯狂的封面，他们就像，“是的，这是为了专辑封面的版权。”正确的？
So then, I don't know, the album comes out, and then they use the art everywhere.
然后，我不知道，专辑出来了，然后他们到处都使用了这些艺术。
They use it on billboards.
他们在广告牌上使用它。
My friends reading comic books and it's like, "Oh, they did a full-page ad." And I go, for illustration, that's a separate fee, right?
我的朋友们在读漫画书，就像是，“哦，他们做了一个整版广告。”举例来说，这是单独的费用，对吧？
It's like, here's the rights to use on the album cover, here's for advertising, right?
就像，这是专辑封面的使用权，这是广告权，对吧？
And so I'm talking to-- I don't know anything, right?
所以我正在谈论——我什么都不知道，对吧？
I'm a fucking horrible street artist running-- Oh, I call myself a street artist.
我是一个他妈的可怕的街头艺术家跑步——哦，我称自己为街头艺术家。
Delete that from the microphone.
从麦克风中删除它。
Ah!
啊!
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Ah!
啊！
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Sorry.
抱歉。
And you could bleep the names or whatever, because I clearly remember.
你可以叫出名字或者其他什么，因为我记得很清楚。
So I call Warner Brothers, and I go, "Hey, can I talk to whoever's in legal or whatever?" And I go, "Yeah, I talked to my friends who are also artists that are more successful, and they said there's a separate fee I should be getting for billboards, bus bench usage, magazine editorial." Magazines used to be big.
所以我打电话给华纳兄弟，然后我说：“嘿，我可以和法律部门或其他部门的人谈谈吗？”我说，“是的，我和我的朋友交谈过，他们也是更成功的艺术家，他们说我应该为广告牌、公共汽车长凳使用和杂志编辑收取单独的费用。”杂志曾经很大。
Tower Records, Virgin Records.
塔尔唱片公司、维珍唱片公司。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
And I remember the arrogance on this guy, Chip.
我记得奇普这个家伙的傲慢。
He was their head legal.
他是他们的法律主管。
He doesn't work there anymore.
他不再在那里工作了。
And I remember the way he talked to me felt like my child, just made me feel-- He's like, "You're some shitty graffiti.
我记得他跟我说话的方式就像我的孩子一样，让我感觉——他就像是，“你是一些糟糕的涂鸦。
Who the fuck are you?
你他妈是谁？
Why am I wasting my time talking to you?" And I go, "Well, I..." And he started just hitting me with legalese, and I go, "Hey, I'm raising my hand right now.
我为什么要浪费时间和你说话？”我说，“好吧，我……”他开始用法律术语打我，我说，“嘿，我现在举手。
I'm raising my hand saying I don't understand what you're saying.
我举手说我听不懂你在说什么。
Can you please talk to me and can you dumb down?
你能和我说话吗？你能不能安静点？
You're trying to beat me up with words right now.
你现在想用言语来打我。
I'm just saying it should be an additional 10 grand, 15 grand for what you guys did.
我只是说，对于你们所做的事情，应该额外增加 10、15 个大奖。
I'll be happy with another five." Just trying to talk, and he's like, "I don't know who the fuck you think you are." And it was very condescending.
如果再有五个我就很高兴了。”只是想说话，他就说，“我他妈不知道你以为自己是谁。”而且是非常居高临下的。
And I remember the arrogance of, I was like, "I could be recording this call." But he was just...
我记得我当时的傲慢态度，“我可以录制这个电话。”但他只是...
And I was like, "For a guy named Chip, that's such a weird..." "You could come at us with lawyers, and you may be even right.
我当时想，“对于一个叫奇普的人来说，这太奇怪了……”“你可以和律师一起来找我们，你甚至可能是对的。
But guess what?
但你猜怎么着？
You're fucking with Warner.
你他妈的是华纳。
You'll never win.
你永远不会赢。
You will never get another dime out of us." I was like, "Holy fuck.
你永远不会从我们这里得到一分钱。”我当时想，“天哪。
What a fucking..." And like I said, people are like, "Oh, I love painting." Then just paint.
太他妈的了……”就像我说的，人们会说，“哦，我喜欢画画。”然后就可以画画了。
Like, "Oh, I want to be..." It's like, you know how fucking hard it is to make money as a creator?
就像，“哦，我想……”就像，你知道作为创作者赚钱有多难吗？
It's like, you got to get a thick skin, and you better be ready to-- I had to threaten Nike with blowing up their entire parking lot before they paid me.
就像，你必须脸皮厚，你最好做好准备——我必须威胁耐克，在他们付钱给我之前炸毁他们的整个停车场。
I was like, "You asked me for these drawings.
我当时想，“你向我要这些图画。
I did them.
我做到了。
I delivered them on time, and you're giving me the checks in the mail." And I called Wieden+Kennedy in Oregon, and I was like, "I live in LA.
我按时交付了它们，你正在邮寄支票给我。”我给俄勒冈州的 Wieden+Kennedy 打电话，我说：“我住在洛杉矶。
It's going to take me this many hours to drive, and I don't know which car's yours.
我要花这么多小时开车，而且我不知道哪辆车是你的。
I'm going to blow up every car." Check was in the mail the next day.
我要炸毁每辆车。”支票第二天就寄到了。
I'm like, "Why did I have to do that?
我想，“为什么我必须这么做？
Why did I have to turn into my mom to get the..." But most artists go, "Ah," and then they just get fucked over, right?
为什么我必须变成我妈妈才能得到……”但大多数艺术家都会说，“啊”，然后他们就被搞砸了，对吧？
So that's part of being an artist, is getting fucked over, not getting paid what you deserve, blah, blah, blah.
所以这就是作为一名艺术家的一部分，就是被搞砸，没有得到你应得的报酬，等等，等等。
So I'm obviously sensitive and painting in a bad mood, and Sean's like, "What?
所以我显然很敏感，在心情不好的情况下画画，肖恩说，“什么？
Dude, what's up, Dave?
伙计，怎么了，戴夫？
Are you..." And I told him what I just told you.
你是不是……”我把刚才告诉你的话告诉了他。
And he's like, "And Facebook has big money behind it now.
他说：“Facebook 现在背后有大笔资金支持。
It's growing." He's like, "Oh, we got a multimillion-dollar deal with Warner Brothers tomorrow in the meeting." And I was like...
它正在增长。”他说，“哦，我们明天在会议上与华纳兄弟达成了一项价值数百万美元的协议。”我当时想……
He goes, "Check this out." So he has the meeting with Warner Brothers, and they're full, everyone's at the long table, and they're like, "Oh, we want to advertise with Facebook, and da, da, da, and this is the new world, and da, da, da." And they're like, "Okay, cool." And it's millions of dollars or whatever.
他说：“看看这个。”所以他和华纳兄弟开会，他们都坐满了，每个人都坐在长桌旁，他们说，“哦，我们想用 Facebook 做广告，哒，哒，哒，这是新世界，哒，哒，哒。”他们就像，“好吧，酷。”这是数百万美元或其他什么。
Hundreds of thousands of dollars.
几十万美元。
And he's like, "Yeah, but that guy Chip fucked with my friend Dave Choe, so we're not doing shit with you guys." And I was like, "This guy's my dog forever." Just no fucks given, right?
他说，“是的，但是奇普那个家伙和我的朋友戴夫·乔上床了，所以我们不会和你们做这些事。”我当时想，“这家伙永远是我的狗。”只是没有他妈的给予，对吧？
I was like, I cried, I gave him a hug, I was like, "Don't fuck with me.
我当时想，我哭了，我给了他一个拥抱，我想，“别操我。
Don't fuck with me." It felt so good.
别惹我。”这种感觉真好。
It felt so fucking good.
感觉真他妈的好。
And then I found out he got fired and all that shit.
然后我发现他被解雇了等等。
I was like, "Yes, sometimes the little guy wins." It felt so good.
我当时想，“是的，有时小家伙会赢。”感觉真好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。
Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.
去年，在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我成为了 Function 成员。
Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health.
Function 提供 100 多项高级实验室测试，为您提供整个身体健康状况的关键快照。
This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more.
此快照为您提供有关心脏健康、激素健康、免疫功能、营养水平等方面的见解。
They've also recently added tests for toxins, such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics, and tests for PFAS, or forever chemicals.
他们最近还增加了毒素测试，例如有害塑料中的 BPA 暴露，以及 PFAS 或永久化学物质的测试。
Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas.
Function 不仅提供对您的身心健康至关重要的 100 多种生物标记物的测试，而且还分析这些结果并提供相关领域专家的顶级医生的见解。
For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood.
例如，在我第一次使用 Function 进行测试时，我发现我的血液中汞含量升高。
Function not only helped me detect that but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, N-acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification.
功能不仅帮助我发现了这一点，还提供了如何最好地降低汞含量的见解，其中包括限制我的金枪鱼消费，我一直在吃大量金枪鱼，同时还努力多吃绿叶蔬菜并补充 NAC、N-乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都可以支持谷胱甘肽的产生和解毒。
And I should say, by taking a second Function test, that approach worked.
我应该说，通过进行第二次功能测试，这种方法奏效了。
Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important.
全面的血液检测至关重要。
There's so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test.
有很多与您的心理和身体健康相关的事情只能通过血液检查来检测。
The problem is blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated.
问题是血液检测一直非常昂贵且复杂。
In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost.
相比之下，Function 的简单性和成本水平给我留下了深刻的印象。
It is very affordable.
这是非常实惠的。
As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.
因此，我决定加入他们的科学顾问委员会，我很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。
If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Function，可以访问 functionhealth.com/huberman。
Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman Podcast listeners.
Function 目前有超过 250,000 人的等候名单，但他们正在为 Huberman 播客听众提供早期访问服务。
Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.
同样，可以通过 functionhealth.com/huberman 提前访问 Function。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
So I got all the typical shame and all that.
所以我得到了所有典型的羞耻感等等。
And to be fair, if you're my dad and you fucking escaped a war and famine to raise your family in America, and you see your kid stealing paint at Home Depot to graffiti dicks on walls, you're not going to...
公平地说，如果你是我爸爸，你他妈的逃离了战争和饥荒，在美国养家糊口，你看到你的孩子在家得宝偷油漆，在墙上涂鸦迪克，你不会……
So I give him that.
所以我给了他那个。
But I felt I didn't know where I belonged.
但我觉得我不知道自己属于哪里。
I'm like I couldn't process, maybe I have dyslexia.
我好像无法处理，也许我有阅读障碍。
I was in school, and it just, I couldn't, none of the information-- I was like, "This is so hard." Like I would try really hard to get a C, where other people were like, "Oh, okay.
我当时在学校，只是，我不能，没有任何信息——我当时想，“这太难了。”就像我会非常努力地获得 C 一样，而其他人会说：“哦，好吧。
X." I was like, "Why is there an X in math?" And they were like, "Dave." And they'd dumb it down and dumb it down, and I'm like, "I'm retarded.
X。”我当时想，“为什么数学里有一个X？”他们就像，“戴夫。”他们把它简化了又简化了，我想，“我是弱智。
I think I need to go to that class." Like I felt because both my brothers have really high IQs, and I'm like, "I'm stupid." So I felt really small in that area, and I made up the story, like, I suck at sports.
我想我需要去那个班。”就像我觉得因为我的两个兄弟都有很高的智商，我就想，“我很愚蠢。”所以我觉得在那个领域真的很渺小，我编造了这个故事，比如，我不擅长体育。
I go, "So this is it.
我说：“就是这样了。
This is all I'll ever be good at." So and now I'm going to fully buy in to what my mom's saying, and because I grew up with the Asian work ethic, I'm like, "It's not a fa-- I am going to..." It wasn't like I am going to be the best.
这就是我所擅长的。”所以现在我要完全相信我妈妈的话，因为我是在亚洲职业道德的熏陶下长大的，我想，“这不是一个法——我要……”这并不是说我会成为最好的。
I just adopted, I am the best artist in the world.
我刚刚领养，我是世界上最好的艺术家。
And to that power of thought, like I sat down, and I'd go to museums.
凭借这种思想的力量，就像我坐下来一样，我会去博物馆。
I studied everything.
我研究了一切。
I studied comic book art, cereal boxes, museums, fine art.
我学习了漫画艺术、麦片盒、博物馆、美术。
Why does this...?
为什么会这样……？
I just got into the business side of art, the creativity, fucking loose watercolors, like tiny detailed pen draw, like everything.
我刚刚进入艺术的商业方面，创造力，他妈的松散的水彩画，像微小的详细钢笔画，就像一切。
And I was like overcom-- I'm like, "I'm going to be good at all of it." Oil painting.
我就像克服了——我想，“我会做好这一切。”油画。
So people go, "What kind of artist?" I'm like, "I'm an artist.
于是人们就会问：“什么样的艺术家？”我想，“我是一名艺术家。
Everything." When I talk, when I make music, like I am going from I'm a piece of shit, I suck, to like not healthy, but it's like, "I am art God." And so I was in my 20s, just waking up and then that's not how I naturally woke up.
一切。”当我说话时，当我创作音乐时，就像我从我是一坨屎、我很糟糕，到不健康，但这就像，“我是艺术之神。”所以我20多岁，刚刚醒来，然后那不是我自然醒来的方式。
I woke up like, "Oh, fuck." And I'd wake up, and I'd have to put that on, like, "You're the greatest." Like hypnotizing myself.
我醒来时说：“哦，操。”当我醒来时，我必须穿上它，就像，“你是最伟大的。”就像催眠自己一样。
"You're the best.
“你是最好的。
You're the fucking best.
你他妈是最棒的。
You're the greatest."
你是最伟大的。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Were you doing any reading books?
你有在看书吗？
Because at the time, when you and I are basically the same age-
因为当时，当你和我基本同龄的时候——
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
back then, there wasn't a lot about neuroscience and this and that, and actualization.
那时，关于神经科学、这个那个以及实现的内容还很少。
It was all kind of hidden away, but there was the Tony Robbins type stuff.
这些东西都被隐藏起来了，但还是有托尼·罗宾斯式的东西。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there was this idea and infomercials and stuff-
于是就有了这个想法和电视广告之类的东西——
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that you could program your mind.
你可以对你的思维进行编程。
Sound like you just basically took all that on-
听起来你基本上只是承担了所有这些-
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
It was just-
那只是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
without any of that.
没有任何一个。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah, I didn't read any of that stuff.
是的，我没有读过任何这些东西。
I stole lots of books, and I would read a lot of pornography.
我偷了很多书，也看了很多色情作品。
I guess this kind of can, I could fit my Pee-wee Herman story, if we're talking about publishing.
我想如果我们谈论的是出版的话，我想这种可以，我可以适合我的皮威·赫尔曼的故事。
It's hard to talk about this because kids ask me all the time, like, "How'd you make it in art?" And nothing I did applies to today.
很难谈论这个，因为孩子们总是问我，比如，“你是如何在艺术领域取得成功的？”我所做的一切都不适用于今天。
It's like I went to Kinko's, and I would have to spend my money or figure out how to do that copy thing, that trick to make more copies.
这就像我去了 Kinko's，我必须花钱或者弄清楚如何做那个复制的事情，那个制作更多副本的技巧。
Because color copies were 99 cents.
因为彩色复印件要 99 美分。
It's like who has...?
就好像谁有……？
So I'd have to pick which one of my paintings were the best, make these mini color copy packets, so that's $10, and then I would go to the newsstand and write the address, like Rolling Stone.
所以我必须选择我的哪一幅画是最好的，制作这些迷你彩色复印包，也就是 10 美元，然后我会去报摊写下地址，比如《滚石》杂志。
All the magazines that had prestige and like C.F.
所有有声望的杂志，比如 C.F.
Payne, Kent Williams, Baron Story, all these amazing illustrators that would work for Time Magazine, Rolling Stone, Playboy, they would all use.
佩恩、肯特·威廉姆斯、男爵故事，所有这些为《时代》杂志、《滚石》、《花花公子》工作的出色插画家，他们都会使用。
So I would open the front page where it had the heading of art direct, and I would write it down, and the newsstand guy's like...
所以我会打开首页，上面有艺术直接的标题，我会把它写下来，报刊亭的家伙就像……
I sound like a boomer right now.
我现在听起来像婴儿潮一代。
It's like, who the fuck?
就像，他妈的是谁？
There's kids listening right now.
现在有孩子在听。
That's a magazine.
那是一本杂志。
What's that?
那是什么？
But that's what I had to do, and I would be like, "Which magazine do I want to send this $10 packet that I just..." And then I have to mail it to them, hopefully, they get that letter and not some other department.
但这就是我必须做的，我会想，“我想把这个 10 美元的包裹寄给哪家杂志，我只是……”然后我必须把它邮寄给他们，希望他们收到那封信，而不是其他部门。
And then just rejection letter after, like sorry.
然后就是拒绝信，就像抱歉一样。
And so I'm sitting down, and I'm ingesting all this, and I have the fire, and I'm sitting down, and I go, "Why is that drawing successful?" Why do...
所以我坐下来，我正在吸收这一切，我有火，我坐下来，我说，“为什么那幅画成功了？”为什么要...
And of course, there's tons of insider trading and corruption in the art world, but I didn't know that at the time, right?
当然，艺术界存在大量的内幕交易和腐败，但我当时并不知道，对吧？
It's like, oh, that guy's dad owns fucking water.
就像，哦，那家伙的爸爸拥有该死的水。
Like that guy.
就像那个家伙。
So I would just sit there, and I would be like, "That guy drew this much.
所以我就坐在那里，然后说：“那家伙画了这么多。
I'm going to draw 10..." Like, "That guy did this, and I'm going to draw..." Some of my paintings, all my paintings back then had at least seven layers, if not more, just layering and layering and dense and it was me.
我要画 10 个……”就像，“那家伙做了这个，我要画……”我的一些画，我当时所有的画至少有七层，如果不是更多的话，只是分层、分层和密集，那就是我。
It's like a musician that's like I have to-- Like I saw a thing with Rick Rubin and Flea doing Give It Away now, and he was just like, you know what he can do.
这就像一个音乐家，我必须这样做——就像我看到 Rick Rubin 和 Flea 正在做 Give It Away 一样，他就像，你知道他能做什么。
But he was like, just do .
但他想，就这么做吧。
Just play less.
少玩点就好了
And back then it wasn't.
那时情况并非如此。
It was like I need to show everyone what I'm capable of, which is I can draw better than you.
就好像我需要向每个人展示我的能力，那就是我可以比你画得更好。
I can paint.
我会画画。
I have to show you that.
我必须向你展示这一点。
Now I don't care, but back then it was...
现在我不在乎了，但当时...
And it isn't that.
事实并非如此。
Art is a, it's not who can put the most lines down or, you know?
艺术是一个，不是谁能写下最多的台词，或者，你知道吗？
And so I'm trying to like, and it was just everyone has their own path, but I remember year 2000, I'm doing graffiti.
所以我试着去喜欢，只是每个人都有自己的路，但我记得2000年，我在做涂鸦。
I'm getting some gigs to do murals.
我正在找一些工作去做壁画。
It's just slowly starting, and someone contacted me at Marvel Comics, and I was like, "Man, I didn't even try, and this is it.
它才慢慢开始，有人联系了我在漫威漫画，我说，“伙计，我什至没有尝试过，就是这样。
This is my dream." And they were, "We want you to draw the X-Men, but a cool X-Men." I'm like, "Fuck, I didn't even have to go to portfolio day." I didn't have to- And I go, "Oh, I knew if I just kept putting my shit out there..." But I'm what?
这是我的梦想。”他们说，“我们希望你画出 X 战警，但是一个很酷的 X 战警。”我想，“操，我什至不需要去作品集日。”我不需要 - 然后我说，“哦，我知道如果我一直把我的狗屎放在那里......”但我是什么？
23 at the time.
当时23岁。
And I start drawing it, and I guess they fired me.
我开始画它，我猜他们解雇了我。
Or they didn't fire me, they just decided to use a different artist, but they never told me, so I'm still drawing it.
或者他们没有解雇我，他们只是决定使用不同的艺术家，但他们从未告诉我，所以我仍在画它。
And I'm a passive-aggressive, angry kid already.
我已经是一个消极攻击、易怒的孩子了。
And I didn't email.
而且我没有发电子邮件。
Some people had emails, but a lot of artists hadn't.
有些人有电子邮件，但很多艺术家没有。
This is the beginning of the internet.
这是互联网的开始。
People weren't using it the way they do now.
人们并没有像现在这样使用它。
And I remember it was the first message board where my friends were like, "Hey, Dave, you got fired off the X-Men book?" And I go, "What?
我记得这是第一个留言板，我的朋友们说，“嘿，戴夫，你被《X战警》这本书解雇了？”我说：“什么？
How did you know?" And they go, "You don't use the internet?" And I go, "What is that?" And they showed us, and I felt shame again.
你怎么知道？”他们问，“你不使用互联网？”我问，“那是什么？”他们向我们展示了，我再次感到羞耻。
I was like, "Oh my God." I was so excited to...
我当时想，“天哪。”我很兴奋...
There's little things in my head, like, if I do a comic book, that means I made it.
我脑子里有一些小事情，比如，如果我写了一本漫画书，那就意味着我成功了。
And I wrote the most scathing, homophobic, racist...
我写了最严厉、最恐同、最种族主义的……
Just, I was mad.
只是，我生气了。
I thought it was funny.
我觉得这很有趣。
I was 23 at the time, and it was 10 pages long, but I didn't know the editor of Marvel.
我当时23岁，这本书有10页长，但我不认识漫威的编辑。
It's probably not even him, it was just...
或许这也不是他，只是……
And I didn't know how to get it to him.
而且我不知道如何把它交给他。
So I just went to Marvel's website and I just sent it to every single person that works at Marvel.
所以我就去了漫威的网站，然后把它发给了每一个在漫威工作的人。
Like copy/paste.
就像复制/粘贴一样。
And the next day was my first experience in the year, Y2K, 1999, 2000, of going viral.
第二天是我在 2000 年、1999 年、2000 年第一次病毒式传播的经历。
They're like, every artist I look up to, every writer I look up to in comics was like, "We don't know who the fuck this kid is, but he just committed career suicide." And then once again, shame.
他们就像，我尊敬的每一位艺术家，我尊敬的每一位漫画作家都喜欢，“我们不知道这孩子是谁，但他只是自杀了。”然后再一次，羞耻。
And so if I go back to all my shame stories, I go, what's the through line?
所以，如果我回到我所有的耻辱故事，我会想，到底是什么？
And we should've made the secret word shame, but, oh, I'm a shame chaser.
我们应该把这个秘密词设为羞耻，但是，哦，我是一个羞耻追逐者。
I get high off shame.
我因羞耻而兴奋。
What's my drug?
我的药是什么？
Oh, workaholism.
哦，工作狂。
It's like my drug that I've chased my whole life is shame and anger.
羞耻和愤怒就像是我一生追逐的毒品。
Fucking powerful drug.
该死的强效药物。
And so I couldn't believe it.
所以我简直不敢相信。
I was like, "I'm never going to get to draw The Hulk, Spider-Man, Wolverine." And I have at this point, and I went through the back door, which I always do, it's true.
我当时想，“我永远画不了绿巨人、蜘蛛侠、金刚狼。”在这一点上，我从后门走了进去，我总是这样做，这是真的。
True vandal.
真正的破坏者。
But I just remember going, "Holy fuck, this is the worst day of my life." People that I look up to, there was a whole thing of like, "I don't know who this Dave Choe, I've never heard of him, but he's a horrible human being.
但我只记得，“天哪，这是我一生中最糟糕的一天。”我尊敬的人，有一种感觉，“我不知道这个戴夫·崔是谁，我从来没有听说过他，但他是一个可怕的人。
Listen." And I was like, "But there was context.
听着。”我当时想，“但是有背景。
You should've heard how I heard it in my head." And they're like, "Oh, it looks different." And I was like, "Holy fuck." And that was my first experience of just feeling like me following a pattern of trying to replicate hatred towards me.
你应该听听我在脑子里听到的。”他们说，“哦，看起来不一样。”我说，“天哪。”这是我第一次感觉自己遵循着一种试图复制对我的仇恨的模式。
But not knowing it.
但并不知道。
I'm just like, "Oh, I don't know what the fuck I'm doing." And some ignorance, some playing dumb, some repeating patterns like a monkey without knowing.
我只是想，“哦，我不知道我他妈的在做什么。”还有一些人无知，一些人装傻，一些人像猴子一样重复模式而不自知。
And so I had a friend in comics at the time because I was just like, I was going out doing graffiti every fucking night, just doing that OCD, playing music in my head and just tagging up everything.
所以当时我有一个漫画朋友，因为我就像，我每天晚上都会出去涂鸦，只是做强迫症，在我的脑海中播放音乐并标记所有东西。
Like the kind of graffiti you're not supposed to do.
就像你不应该做的涂鸦一样。
People's cars, houses.
人们的汽车、房子。
I wanted someone to kill me.
我想要有人杀了我。
I didn't care.
我不在乎。
I wanted someone to be like, "Dude, I worked hard for that car, and you just ruined it." And in my head I'm like, "But I'm a famous artist." Which I wasn't.
我希望有人能这样说：“伙计，我为那辆车付出了很多努力，而你却毁了它。”在我的脑海里，我想，“但我是一位著名的艺术家。”但我不是。
I'm 23.
我23岁了。
And they're like, "I just made your car more valuable." That's how I'm thinking, but I was out of my mind.
他们就像，“我只是让你的车更有价值。”我也是这么想的，但我却失去了理智。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You probably did make their car more valuable-
你可能确实让他们的车更值钱了-
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Well-
嗯-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in retrospect.
回想起来。
Can I ask you a question about the shame?
我可以问你一个关于耻辱的问题吗？
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have a friend, he's a addiction trauma counselor guy, amazing guy.
我有一个朋友，他是一名成瘾创伤咨询师，非常棒的人。
He's been on this podcast, name of Ryan Suave.
他曾参加过这个播客，他的名字叫 Ryan Suave。
He has a gift for helping people understand trauma and addiction and this kind of thing.
他有帮助人们理解创伤和成瘾等问题的天赋。
We haven't talked a lot about addiction yet today, but you said you got addicted to the shame.
今天我们还没有谈论太多关于成瘾的话题，但你说你对羞耻感上瘾了。
And do you think, I mean, who knows, here I'm using my intellectual brain, but-
你是否认为，我的意思是，谁知道呢，我在这里使用我的智力大脑，但是-
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
do you think that these oscillations of your mindset, like, "I'm a great artist, I'm the greatest artist," sets it up so the shame is that much deeper?
你是否认为你的心态的这些波动，比如“我是一位伟大的艺术家，我是最伟大的艺术家”，会让你感到羞耻感更深吗？
Like it's loading a spring?
就像加载弹簧一样？
Because he told me once, Ryan once told me, he's worked with heroin addicts, drug addicts of all kinds, sex addiction, everything, and he just said, he goes, "Gambling addiction is the worst because the next time really could change it all." And he said, "But there's something really interesting that happens to gambling addicts." He goes, "Eventually, they get tired of winning, and they get addicted to losing."
因为他告诉我一次，瑞安曾经告诉我，他曾与海洛因成瘾者、各种吸毒者、性成瘾者一起工作过，他只是说，“赌博成瘾是最糟糕的，因为下一次真的可以改变这一切。”他说：“但是赌博成瘾者身上发生了一些非常有趣的事情。”他说：“最终，他们厌倦了胜利，并且沉迷于失败。”
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Happens really quick.
发生得真的很快。
So, I have my own feelings about this subject.
所以，对于这个话题，我有自己的感受。
I'm a severe gambling addict.
我是一个严重的赌博成瘾者。
I told you I'm going to time jump, so I'm at that point, but I'll jump to the current, which is a very shameful thing for me to admit or talk about but I'm here, so I'll just go there.
我告诉过你我要时间跳跃，所以我就在那个点上，但我会跳到当前，这对我来说承认或谈论是一件非常可耻的事情，但我在这里，所以我就去那里。
Shame is so powerful because at this point, I've been to all the 12-step meetings.
羞耻感是如此强大，因为此时我已经参加了所有 12 步骤会议。
I've been to Debtors Anonymous, business owner, Debtors Anonymous, Overeaters Anonymous, Workaholics, Sex and Love Addicts, Sex Addicts, Gambling.
我去过债务人匿名会、企业主、债务人匿名会、暴饮暴食者匿名会、工作狂、性与爱情成瘾者、性成瘾者、赌博。
And so what's the through line?
那么直通线是什么呢？
Every single one is gambling.
每个人都在赌博。
Every single addiction is gambling addiction.
每一种瘾都是赌博瘾。
If you drink and drive, you're gambling.
如果你酒后驾车，你就是在赌博。
Your life could be over in your...
你的生命可能就在你的...
If you overeat and you're diabetic, it's just every fucking addiction is...
如果你吃得过多并且患有糖尿病，那么每一个该死的瘾都是......
So addiction is one of those things you can't apply logic to, and your scientist friend nailed it.
所以成瘾是你无法应用逻辑的事情之一，而你的科学家朋友却做到了。
As I explore my feelings, because the people, "What are you running from, Dave?" And it's like, well, I'm fucking running from myself, dude.
当我探索自己的感受时，因为人们会问：“戴夫，你在逃避什么？”这就像，好吧，我他妈的在逃避自己，伙计。
I don't want to look in the mirror.
我不想照镜子。
I don't want to see myself.
我不想看到自己。
I hate myself.
我讨厌我自己。
So I'm just running.
所以我只是跑步。
So as long as I'm doing graffiti, running from the police, just hopping on a train, literal running, literally running to make sure I'm never sit still for one second.
因此，只要我在涂鸦，躲避警察，跳上火车，真正的跑步，真正的跑步，以确保我永远不会静坐一秒钟。
Like, "What are you doing, Dave?" I'm playing drums in a band.
就像，“你在做什么，戴夫？”我在乐队里打鼓。
I'm fucking at a casino.
我他妈在赌场。
I'm traveling, doing the news for Vice.
我正在旅行，为 Vice 做新闻。
I'm painting at this...
我正在画这个...
I can't sit still, because that means I have to sit with myself, and I can't do that.
我不能安静地坐着，因为这意味着我必须独自坐着，而我不能那样做。
I can't do that.
我不能那样做。
I couldn't do that.
我做不到。
I couldn't do that.
我做不到。
I can now.
我现在可以了。
So, you know what feels good?
那么，你知道什么感觉很好吗？
Winning a lot of money.
赢了很多钱。
Not working for it, and sitting down at a casino, and them knowing who you are and upping the limits, and you literally making enough money off baccarat or blackjack, what people don't make in a lifetime.
不为之工作，坐在赌场里，他们知道你是谁，并提高限额，你就可以从百家乐或二十一点中赚到足够的钱，这是人们一生都赚不到的钱。
That's an insane feeling.
那是一种疯狂的感觉。
How many shits do you think I took today before I came here?
你认为我今天来这里之前经历了多少次大便？
Rob, how many?
罗布，有多少？
Speaker 4:
演讲者4：
Two.
二。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Two.
二。
One big one and one little one.
一大一一小。
Scientists don't know what causes IBS.
科学家不知道肠易激综合症的原因。
I do.
我愿意。
It's stress.
这是压力。
When I was gambling, when I was at the height of any of my addictions, seven shits a day at least.
当我赌博的时候，当我沉迷其中的时候，每天至少拉屎七次。
Just like, "Okay." And you would never see it on my face, or maybe you would, but I felt like I could gamble with a fortune in front of me and lose it and win it and nothing.
就像，“好吧”。你永远不会在我的脸上看到它，或者也许你会，但我觉得我可以用我面前的一大笔财富进行赌博，输掉它，赢了它，但什么也没有。
Nothing.
什么也没有。
I was disassociated, dead inside, whatever you want to say.
我已经脱离了社会，内心一片死寂，无论你想说什么。
I didn't feel anymore, right?
我已经没有感觉了，对吧？
The highs were so high.
高潮是如此之高。
I'd already been chased by the cops.
我已经被警察追走了。
I'd already been beaten the shit out of.
我已经被打得屁滚尿流了。
I'd already been molested before.
我以前就已经被猥亵过。
Whatever you could do to me, you've already done to me, and I'm still here.
无论你能对我做什么，你都已经对我做了，而我还在这里。
What can you do to me that I...
你能对我做什么，我...
I'm my worst enemy.
我是我最大的敌人。
I beat myself up, right?
我打败了自己，对吗？
When the gambling stopped, when I got into recovery.
当赌博停止时，当我进入康复状态时。
I take one shit a day now.
我现在每天拉一坨屎
When this fucking asshole asked me to do the podcast, I start stressing.
当这个该死的混蛋让我做播客时，我开始感到压力。
I've taken, when was that, a few weeks ago?
我已经拍了，那是什么时候，几周前？
Oh, shit, dude, I just took three shit.
哦，该死，老兄，我刚刚吃了三顿屎。
It started again, because I don't have stress in my life anymore.
一切又开始了，因为我的生活不再有压力了。
Or, I have whatever, normal family stress, but I don't have, "Oh, you're going to say something on some guy's show, and then your life's going to be ruined again." I've done that so many times, it's like...
或者，我有正常的家庭压力，但我不会，“哦，你会在某个人的节目上说些什么，然后你的生活就会再次被毁。”我已经这样做过很多次了，就像...
So I'm like, "Fuck, I just woke up.
所以我想，“操，我刚醒。
I just already took a shit.
我刚刚已经拉屎了。
Why do I got to take another one?" I'm like, oh, the IBS is coming back because there's a part of me that's like, "I hope I say something horrible today, because then I could feel that again." And so what people, when they're listening to this, and I don't know if I'm making...
为什么我必须再服用一个？”我想，哦，IBS又回来了，因为我的一部分就像，“我希望我今天说一些可怕的事情，因为那样我就能再次感受到这种感觉。”所以人们，当他们听这个的时候，我不知道我是否在做……
When I talk, sometimes I make sense to myself and sometimes I don't.
当我说话时，有时我对自己有意义，有时又不明白。
But if you're an addict, it will make sense to you.
但如果你是一个瘾君子，这对你来说是有意义的。
Everyone listening to this is either an addict or someone in their life is.
每个听到这个的人要么是瘾君子，要么是他们生活中的某个人。
Their family member or their friend.
他们的家人或朋友。
But at this point, with social media and their phones, everyone's an addict, right?
但现在，有了社交媒体和手机，每个人都上瘾了，对吧？
You can't stop.
你不能停下来。
It's just impossible.
这是不可能的。
You will never find anything more addictive than a phone, right?
你再也找不到比手机更让人上瘾的东西了，对吧？
So in the time that, I haven't been in an actual casino in 10 years.
在那段时间里，我已经有十年没有去过真正的赌场了。
I've been banned from all these casinos.
我被禁止进入所有这些赌场。
The whole world became a casino.
整个世界都变成了赌场。
You can't go anywhere without gambling now.
现在你去任何地方都不能不赌博。
Fucking lottery.
该死的彩票。
You can go on your phone.
你可以用你的手机去。
You could bet on anything, right?
你可以赌任何东西，对吧？
So at first, in every addiction, you want to win.
所以一开始，在每一次成瘾中，你都想获胜。
Oh, fuck, that, I can relate to drugs and alcohol even though I don't do that.
哦，操，那个，我可以与毒品和酒精联系起来，尽管我不这样做。
But that must feel good to get a little drunk and then be the funniest guy at the party.
但喝点醉然后成为聚会上最有趣的人一定感觉很好。
Or, so eating the most delicious foods that I ever ate that I never thought I would eat in my life, and then okay, that's good.
或者，吃我吃过的最美味的食物，我从来没有想过我一生中会吃到，然后好吧，那很好。
Your body feels good.
你的身体感觉很好。
Why do you need to eat until you're puking and you become binging and purging?
为什么你需要吃东西直到你呕吐并且开始暴饮暴食？
Because what you don't understand, because you're applying logic to it, is I want to fucking hurt.
因为你不明白，因为你正在应用逻辑，我想他妈的受伤。
Winning a million dollars feels fucking great.
赢得一百万美元的感觉太棒了。
Losing $10 million feels even better.
损失 1000 万美元感觉更好。
Well, that doesn't make any sense.
嗯，这没有任何意义。
Getting married feels awesome.
结婚的感觉真棒。
I'm just making shit up, but put greatest day of my life.
我只是在编造，但这是我一生中最美好的一天。
Right?
对吗？
Greatest day of my life.
我一生中最伟大的一天。
And I could get dark.
我可能会变黑。
I'll try not to use dark examples, but when something awesome, marriage, having a child, winning a lot of money, doing drugs, and having one of the best days of your life, just when it's on the good side, it feels...
我会尽量不使用黑暗的例子，但是当发生一些很棒的事情时，婚姻，生孩子，赢了很多钱，吸毒，以及度过一生中最美好的日子之一，只要它是好的一面，感觉......
That's why you do it.
这就是你这样做的原因。
Heroin fucking feels good.
海洛因他妈的感觉很好。
I've never done it, but the description of it is like, that sounds awesome.
我从来没有这样做过，但它的描述就像，听起来棒极了。
Why would you not do it again?
你为什么不再这样做呢？
But then when you're fucking scratching your skin and sucking dick for fucking crack, that's another high, where you're at the bottom.
但当你他妈的抓伤你的皮肤并为他妈的裂缝吮吸鸡巴时，那就是另一个高潮，你已经处于谷底了。
And that's a repetition of the pattern of whatever your childhood was.
这就是你童年的模式的重复。
And so I don't fucking know Andrew besides his online persona, right?
所以除了他的网络形象之外我根本不认识安德鲁，对吧？
This is our first time meeting in person.
这是我们第一次亲自见面。
This is not me being a know-it-all.
这不是我一个万事通。
Humans are not that difficult to understand.
人类并没有那么难理解。
We're very simple.
我们很简单。
I called him immature a little bit before.
我之前说他有点不成熟。
Not to be insulting, it's just part of me is like, this is me being a hater.
无意冒犯，这只是我的一部分，这就是我的仇恨。
I love everybody, but I'm just like, what fucking adult gets tattoos?
我爱每个人，但我只是想，哪个该死的成年人会纹身？
What kind of fucking adult gets...
什么样的大人才能得到...
And I know you got fucking tattoos, and I'm like, who fucking just throws their shit away to become a skater and then Are you okay with me asking you questions?
我知道你他妈的有纹身，我想，谁他妈的只是扔掉他们的狗屎来成为一名滑冰运动员，然后你同意我问你问题吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Yeah.
是的。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Were you sexually abused?
你遭受过性虐待吗？
Were you-
你是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No. I had friends that were.
不，我有这样的朋友。
I lucked out.
我很幸运。
I had one guy come at me that...
有一个人朝我走来，...
I worked at a skateboard shop in Palo Alto.
我在帕洛阿尔托的一家滑板店工作。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe you saw it, Palo Alto Toy and Sport.
也许您看到了，Palo Alto Toy and Sport。
It was down-
原来是这样——
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
on Waverley Street.
在韦弗利街。
Guy that worked there did that.
在那里工作的人就是这么做的。
I responded differently.
我的反应不同。
I flipped the desk over on him.
我把桌子翻到他身上。
I made him apologize to me in front of everybody.
我让他当着所有人的面向我道歉。
And my biggest fear at that point was my mom, even though we had our tensions.
那时我最大的恐惧是我的妈妈，尽管我们的关系很紧张。
My mom's from New Jersey.
我妈妈来自新泽西。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
She's old school.
她是老派。
She knew something happened, and my fear was that if I told her-
她知道发生了什么事，而我担心的是，如果我告诉她——
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that she would actually kill him.
她真的会杀了他。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like, actually kill him.
就像，真的杀了他。
Because despite whatever challenges she and I have had over the years-
因为尽管多年来她和我遇到了各种挑战——
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that maternal aggression, that protectiveness-
那种母性的攻击性，那种保护性——
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
she would've killed him.
她会杀了他的。
So I remember being not worried about me, worried that she was going to kill him.
所以我记得我并不担心我，而是担心她会杀了他。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But no, I lucked out there.
但不，我很幸运。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
I perceive you as a brilliant man, and this is me gathering data and facts in my life.
我认为你是一个才华横溢的人，这是我在生活中收集的数据和事实。
I don't know.
我不知道。
But you know very smart.
但你知道得很聪明。
I know geniuses, you know geniuses.
我认识天才，你也认识天才。
The smarter the person, the more intellectual they are, the more on the spectrum they are, the greater the trauma they experienced.
一个人越聪明，他们的智力越强，他们的光谱越多，他们经历的创伤就越大。
Because whether that was always in them and the trauma unlocked it, or you learned that as mental jujitsu to...
因为无论这是否一直存在于他们之中并且创伤解锁了它，或者你学会了作为精神柔术......
These people I know in my life that are just brilliant, they can comprehend things that most people can't, they could create.
我一生中认识的这些人非常聪明，他们可以理解大多数人无法理解的事情，他们可以创造。
Their childhood was so fucking unsafe.
他们的童年真是太不安全了。
Abandonment.
放弃。
And that's why I asked you about the, it's usually sexual trauma because that carries the most shame.
这就是为什么我问你这个问题，通常是性创伤，因为这带来了最大的耻辱。
That they're like, "Oh, I was small.
他们就像，“哦，我还小。
I couldn't defend myself.
我无法为自己辩护。
That unless I become a jujitsu master or fighter, how can I protect myself?" And it's with this.
除非我成为柔术大师或战士，否则我如何保护自己？”与此有关。
So then something gets unlocked here, and they become the smartest person in the room, and they can just destroy you verbally.
所以，有些东西在这里被解锁，他们成为房间里最聪明的人，他们可以用言语摧毁你。
They can destroy you in a courtroom.
他们可以在法庭上摧毁你。
And so yeah, to answer the, you become a shame chaser.
所以，是的，为了回答这个问题，你变成了一个羞耻追逐者。
You get high off shame, and that's even shameful to admit out loud.
你会因为羞耻而感到兴奋，而大声承认这一点甚至是可耻的。
And so I could sit here, and if I'm being present with g- current, with up to date, I have a great life.
所以我可以坐在这里，如果我能及时了解最新情况，我的生活就会很美好。
I'm telling you a lot of stories from the past, feelings that I've felt in the past, and I tell on myself all the time.
我给你讲了很多过去的故事，过去的感受，也一直在讲我自己。
When old patterns come up, I have a therapist, I got a men's group.
当旧模式出现时，我有一位治疗师，我有一个男子团体。
I got friends who love me.
我有爱我的朋友。
I raise my hand.
我举起手。
I go, "I need help," which I never did before.
我说：“我需要帮助”，这是我以前从未做过的。
I grew up with, "Shut the fuck up and figure it out." My whole childhood was a question mark.
在我成长过程中，“他妈的闭嘴，想办法解决。”我的整个童年都是一个问号。
Where are we going?
我们要去哪里？
What are we doing?
我们在做什么？
Nothing was explained to me.
没有向我解释什么。
And so there was a lot of violent, a lot of abandonment.
所以有很多暴力，很多遗弃。
And that's probably why I'm really curious and ask a lot of questions, because I didn't know what was happening, and my parents were just working all the time.
这可能就是为什么我真的很好奇并问了很多问题，因为我不知道发生了什么，而我的父母一直在工作。
They're like, "I don't know.
他们就像是，“我不知道。
Stay at this house or this," and then it's just like, "Who are these people?
留在这个房子或这个，”然后就像，“这些人是谁？
What's happening?
发生什么事了？
Why is this guy baptizing me for the 10th...
为什么这家伙要给我施洗第十次……
Why am I getting on a plane?" It was just like, "Just shut up.
我为什么要上飞机？”就像是，“闭嘴。
Just go along to get along." And so part of my story is if I'm a nice boy, if I'm a nice Asian boy and I do, then the world shits on me, then everything horrible.
就一起去相处吧。”所以我的故事的一部分是，如果我是一个好男孩，如果我是一个好亚洲男孩并且我这样做了，那么世界就会向我拉屎，然后一切都会变得可怕。
The second I fucking speak up, scream, "Get the fuck off," just do graffiti, break the law, then I get to do the Linkin Park album cover.
当我他妈的说话的那一刻，尖叫，“滚开，”只是涂鸦，违法，然后我就可以做林肯公园的专辑封面。
Then I get Sean Parker.
然后我就去找肖恩·帕克。
And I talk to all the jackass guys about this.
我和所有的蠢货都讨论过这个问题。
It's like you're rewarded for bad behavior.
就像你因不良行为而得到奖励一样。
You get to be the president.
你要当总统。
The more I act, and so in one way, okay, that's for career, right?
我表演得越多，从某种意义上说，好吧，那是为了事业，对吗？
But what about, it just runs hell on your personal life, and that's why when I'm in my addiction and I'm chasing shame, I drag everyone who loves me down with them.
但又怎么样，它只会让你的个人生活变得糟糕，这就是为什么当我沉迷于羞耻感时，我会把所有爱我的人都拖下去。
So I go, "I need to..." And I don't need my wife or anyone to be my mom.
所以我说，“我需要……”而且我不需要我的妻子或任何人成为我的妈妈。
I'm like, "I'll handle it." That's how I grow myself up.
我会说：“我会处理好的。”我就是这样成长的。
And it doesn't need to be, like I said, brilliance is found in Milpitas, in Palo Alto, in Gilroy.
正如我所说，不需要在米尔皮塔斯、帕洛阿尔托和吉尔罗伊找到才华。
Brilliance is found in the mundane, sitting in the waiting room.
坐在候诊室的平凡中发现了辉煌。
Brilliance is found in these quiet moments.
在这些安静的时刻中会发现辉煌。
And so it's like, I don't need to go to rehab and have this fucking movie role.
所以这就像是，我不需要去康复中心，也不需要扮演这个该死的电影角色。
It's a phone call.
这是一个电话。
It's like, "Let me do this." And so, the feelings, the chemistry, it's like when you lose all the money you've ever made in your life in a coin flip, and you're just sitting there like...
就像是“让我来做这个”。所以，那种感觉，那种化学反应，就像当你抛硬币时输掉了一生中赚到的所有钱，而你只是坐在那里……
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, shit.
哦，妈的。
Sorry.
对不起。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
No worries.
不用担心。
Hopefully I didn't get any on the microphone.
希望我的麦克风没有听到任何声音。
Ah!
啊!
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Ah!
啊！
What's that line from that 80s movie?
80 年代电影中的台词是什么？
"It's not a party till something's broken."
“除非有东西被破坏，否则这不是一场聚会。”
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I always liked that line because it excuses it immediately.
我一直很喜欢这句话，因为它立即成为借口。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some breaks, folks, you just say-
有些休息，伙计们，你只是说——
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah, in this case it-
是的，在这种情况下——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's not a party till something's broke
除非有东西坏了，否则这不是一场派对
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
...
...
in this case, it was my soul.
在这种情况下，这是我的灵魂。
So I was very reckless with my heart.
所以我的心非常鲁莽。
I treated myself very poorly.
我对自己很不好。
I didn't care what happened to me.
我不在乎我发生了什么事。
And so as I jumped from addiction to addiction, it's like, "Oh, which is the one I can hide in plain sight?" The one that you're in right now.
因此，当我从一个瘾跳到另一个瘾时，我就想，“哦，哪一个是我可以隐藏在众目睽睽之下的呢？”就是你现在所在的那个。
Workaholism.
工作狂。
As long as you work all the time, as long as you're providing people, as long as you're helping people and being of service, then that's good, right?
只要你一直在工作，只要你在为人们提供帮助，只要你在帮助人们并提供服务，那就很好，对吧？
But what is being neglected in that?
但这其中有什么被忽视的呢？
This.
这。
I don't tell this to everyone, but as someone in your situation that you have life changes coming up, and I already know your answer, but I would ask why not take one year off And he's like: "Well, I got my this, and I'm this important Stanford guy, and I got..." And I was like: "Yeah, but you only got one life." There's something about it that feels like when I'm in my workaholism.
我不会告诉所有人，但作为像你这样的人，你的生活即将发生变化，我已经知道你的答案，但我会问为什么不休息一年，他说：“好吧，我得到了我的这个，我是斯坦福大学的重要人物，我得到了......”我说：“是的，但你只有一次生命。”感觉就像我处于工作狂状态一样。
That's the one where I get, in this society, a pat on the back.
在这个社会里，这就是我得到的鼓励。
Good job, Dave.
干得好，戴夫。
And the Sean Parker story with the Warner Brothers, that was a win.
肖恩·帕克与华纳兄弟的故事，这是一场胜利。
I was like, "Fuck yeah." But it was so much...
我当时想，“操，是的。”但那已经太多了...
Can I tell my Pee-wee Herman story?
我可以讲述我的皮威·赫尔曼的故事吗？
There's some shame in that.
这有一些耻辱。
I'll bring it around.
我会把它带过来。
Part of my character defects is entitlement and impatience.
我性格的一部分缺陷是权利和急躁。
Once I accepted what my mom is saying true, I am the greatest artist in the world according to Jane Cho, and now I'm going to start, not at first, but I'll start to believe that too.
一旦我接受了我妈妈所说的事实，根据Jane Cho的说法，我是世界上最伟大的艺术家，现在我要开始了，不是一开始，但我也会开始相信这一点。
Because it's so scary doing graffiti.
因为涂鸦太可怕了。
Not in a crew, not in a gang.
不是在一个团队中，也不是在一个帮派中。
To just go out and it's something so comforting to draw in a tiny sketchbook and no one's going to see it.
出去在一本小素描本上画画，而没有人会看到它，这是一件多么令人欣慰的事情。
Right?
正确的？
You fuck up, whatever.
你他妈的，无论如何。
But to draw something big on a wall and everyone going down the 101 Freeway, thousands of people will see it before 8:00.
但是如果在墙上画一个大东西，然后每个人都沿着101高速公路行驶，那么在8:00之前就会有成千上万的人看到它。
Like, "That sucks.
就像，“这很糟糕。
That guy has no can control." You're naked.
那家伙根本无法控制。”你赤身裸体。
You're like: "This is what's inside me, and I did it 40 feet long, and here it is." And they're like: "It sucks." Shame.
你会说：“这就是我体内的东西，我做了 40 英尺长，它就在这里。”他们会说：“这太糟糕了。”耻辱。
I'm chasing shame.
我正在追逐羞耻。
It's like, what would it feel like if everyone's like: "Dude, that's the fucking masterpiece"?
就好像，如果每个人都说：“伙计，这就是他妈的杰作”，那会是什么感觉？
Not as cool.
没那么酷。
So I'm doing the thing.
所以我正在做这件事。
I'm sending my art out.
我要把我的作品发出来。
And La Brea used to have a lot of galleries.
拉布雷亚曾经有很多画廊。
And in my head, I thought my art was better than every artist that was in those.
在我看来，我认为我的艺术比其中的每一位艺术家都好。
I would be like...
我会像...
And I'd go down the street, and I'm like: "Oh, they show that?" I would keep a record of what kind of art they show, then I'd skate back to my house and paint like that style, but better.
我会走在街上，我想：“哦，他们展示了这个？”我会记录下他们展示的艺术类型，然后我会溜回我的房子，像那样的风格画画，但更好。
In my mind, better.
在我看来，更好。
And then I'd make a new portfolio, and I'd go down.
然后我会制作一个新的投资组合，然后我就会下去。
And they're like: "Who the fuck?" You have to be shown first before they'll even take-- And I go, "But..." So it's just anger, more frustration, coming out sideways, coming out doing more graffiti.
他们就像：“他妈的是谁？”在他们接受之前，你必须先被展示出来——我说，“但是……”所以这只是愤怒，更多的挫败感，从侧面出来，出来做更多的涂鸦。
Shoplifting food to like...
商店行窃食物喜欢...
So then I finally get to La Brea and Melrose, where there was an ice cream shop called Double Rainbow, and there's this wonderful lady named Candace there.
然后我终于到达了拉布雷亚和梅尔罗斯，那里有一家名为“双彩虹”的冰淇淋店，那里有一位名叫坎迪斯的出色女士。
And I was saying how I'm talking now out loud, and my art's just right here, and she's like: "Let me see." And I show it to her, and she's like: "This is amazing." I go: "I fucking know, dude!
我说我现在大声说话，我的艺术就在这里，她说：“让我看看。”我把它拿给她看，她说：“这太棒了。”我说：“我他妈知道了，伙计！
I'm the best!" Then she's like: "All right, just chill the fuck out, all right?" She's like: "Put it up on the wall." And then my ego goes: "In a fucking ice cream shop?" And I go: "Well, I guess no one else is offering.
我是最棒的！”然后她说：“好吧，冷静点，好吗？”她说：“把它挂在墙上。”然后我的自尊心就开始了：“在一家该死的冰淇淋店里？”我说：“好吧，我想没有人愿意提供。
Okay." So it was not this.
好吧。”所以不是这个。
It wasn't minimalist.
这不是极简主义的。
It was floor to ceiling, hundreds of paintings, some that I spent months on.
从地板到天花板，有数百幅画作，其中一些是我花了几个月的时间完成的。
This was singular, just I'm the best, and I need to show you.
这很奇特，我是最棒的，我需要向你展示。
It wasn't tasteful, like here's one painting and let that breathe.
这没有品味，就像这是一幅画，让它呼吸。
And it was just like, here's ah.
就像，这就是啊。
And people are coming in there buying mint chocolate chip, going: "Oh, that's pretty cool." And so every day, I would get a call.
人们走进那里购买薄荷巧克力片，说：“哦，那太酷了。”所以每天我都会接到电话。
"Love your art, want to buy it." I'm like, "Fuck yeah, here we go." They're like $2.
“喜欢你的艺术品，想买下来。”我想，“操，是的，我们开始吧。”它们就像 2 美元。
I'm like, "You know how long I spent on that art?" And I just was like, "50 bucks?" This is early 2000s.
我想，“你知道我在这门艺术上花了多长时间吗？”我当时就想，“50 美元？”这是2000年代初。
I'm like, "That's less than the art supplies." That I stole, to be fair.
我想，“这比美术用品还少。”公平地说，是我偷的。
But still, I'm like: "Can you cover the cost of materials?" And they're like: "Yeah, it's good, but can you..." Just haggling.
但我仍然想：“你能支付材料费吗？”他们会说：“是的，这很好，但是你能……”只是讨价还价。
Five, 10.
五、十。
I'm like: "That's what a fucking print or sticker costs.
我想：“这就是他妈的印刷品或贴纸的成本。
This is an original painting." And I remember I got a call one day, and it's these things, the stories that I keep editing in my mind to make me the hero.
这是一幅原画。”我记得有一天我接到一个电话，正是这些事情，我在脑海中不断编辑的故事，使我成为英雄。
And the guy's like: "I'll trade you a car for that giant painting," the one that I spent months on.
那个人说：“我用一辆车换你那幅巨画，”我花了几个月的时间画的那幅画。
And of course, it's 1972 Plymouth Fury, no brakes, cracked window.
当然，这是 1972 年的 Plymouth Fury，没有刹车，车窗破裂。
Just the complete fucking beater piece of shit.
简直就是一个彻头彻尾的混蛋。
But then the story in my head that I go around telling part of my PR marketing is like: "I traded my art for a car." "Oh, yeah?" And then like: "You don't need to know the details of the car." And the guy in the recycler was trying to sell it for $200, $300.
但后来我脑海中讲述我的公关营销部分的故事就像是：“我用我的艺术品换了一辆车。” “哦，是吗？”然后就像：“你不需要知道汽车的细节。”回收站里的那个人试图以 200 美元、300 美元的价格出售它。
He's like: "Just get this shit off my lawn." And I remember this is how I drove it.
他说：“把这些东西从我的草坪上拿走吧。”我记得我就是这样驾驶的。
I would drive it, and there was no brakes, so I had to-- There was fuel, and I had to pump it a block before, and then I would always hit the car, like ding.
我会开它，没有刹车，所以我不得不——有燃料，我必须先把它泵上一个街区，然后我总是会撞到车，就像叮叮一样。
And the guy would say: "Hey, what the fuck?" And I'd be like: "Sorry." And I had no money to fix it, but I was just in my head.
那家伙会说：“嘿，搞什么？”我会说：“对不起。”我没有钱去修理它，但我只是在我的脑海里。
I did it.
我做到了。
I did it.
我做到了。
Small victories.
小胜利。
Little victories.
小小的胜利。
And then my friend's like I knew all the indie zine make your own fucking punk rock.
然后我的朋友就好像我知道所有的独立杂志都在制作你自己的朋克摇滚。
And I would just get rejection letter after-- Just the continuation of you're not enough.
然后我就会收到拒绝信——仅仅继续你是不够的。
Your art's not that good.
你的手艺没那么好。
You suck.
你好烂。
And then maybe they wouldn't say that, but that's how I took every...
然后也许他们不会这么说，但这就是我对待每一个......
Not at this time.
目前还不行。
Not for us.
不适合我们。
Rejection letter from Playboy, from Rolling Stone.
来自《花花公子》、《滚石》杂志的拒绝信。
And I just remember one of my friends, he just always had nice sketchbooks, and I go: "Where are you getting that money?
我只记得我的一个朋友，他总是有漂亮的素描本，我就说：“你从哪里得到那么多钱？
You're a full-time artist?" And he was a dirty punk rock guy, and he's like "You know the skin rags pay just as much." It's like they have none of the prestige.
你是一名全职艺术家？”他是一个肮脏的朋克摇滚乐手，他就像“你知道破烂的皮肤付出同样多的代价”。就好像他们没有任何威望一样。
I went to the Tower Records warehouse once where they distributed a calendar I made, and it's like this whole table's the warehouse.
我曾经去过 Tower Records 仓库，他们分发了我制作的日历，就像整张桌子都是仓库一样。
This is Sports Illustrated, Rolling Stone, this, and all of this is porn.
这是《体育画报》、《滚石》，这一切都是色情内容。
So you don't want to brag about that, but they pay literally the same amount as Rolling Stone, but it's not Rolling Stone.
所以你不想吹嘘这一点，但他们支付的金额实际上与滚石乐队相同，但它不是滚石乐队。
So I go, "Okay, I guess I'm doing that." So then I go to the part of the magazine stand where there's a curtain, and I go back and I start Butthole Fever, just start writing down the art director's name.
所以我说：“好吧，我想我就这么做了。”然后我走到杂志摊位有窗帘的地方，然后我回去开始《Butthole Fever》，开始写下艺术总监的名字。
And that was the thing is I cared.
这就是我关心的事情。
I cared so much about-- It was important to me.
我非常关心——这对我来说很重要。
It saved me.
它救了我。
Art saved me.
艺术拯救了我。
So it didn't matter if I was doing a logo for Nike or Toyota.
所以我是为耐克还是丰田做标志并不重要。
I just was like you're still looking at me.
我只是觉得你还在看着我。
Even though if I'm doing a corporate job, I'm in there, and I need you to see me.
即使我在公司工作，我也在那里，我需要你看到我。
Even though if I hate the job and you're not even paying me, I'm still going to do my best no matter what.
即使我讨厌这份工作而你甚至不付钱给我，无论如何我仍然会尽力而为。
I have pride in my work.
我对自己的工作感到自豪。
And I get that from my parents also.
我也从我的父母那里得到了这一点。
And I love that.
我喜欢这样。
I'll go to restaurants where I don't even like the food because I know the waiter is running to bring me water, and he cares.
我会去那些我什至不喜欢食物的餐馆，因为我知道服务员正在跑去给我送水，而他很关心。
That's the secret ingredient to anything.
这是任何事物的秘密成分。
Anytime I feel like the person cares, it's such a warm feeling.
每当我感觉到有人在乎我的时候，我都会感到很温暖。
And I cared.
我很关心。
And I still do.
我仍然这样做。
I care a lot.
我很关心。
I sit here and go, "Ah, I don't give a fuck." I do.
我坐在这里说道：“啊，我才不在乎呢。”我愿意。
I care maybe too much.
我可能太在乎了。
So I write the number for-- I try the legit ones first, Penthouse and Playboy, and they're like, "Nope.
所以我写下号码——我先尝试合法的，Penthouse 和 Playboy，他们的反应是，“不。
Nope." I'm like, "I guess I go to the Hustler and Buttman and Asian Fever." And I get a call from Buttman.
不。”我想，“我想我会去看《骗子》、《巴特曼》和《亚洲狂热》。”我接到了巴特曼的电话。
They're like, "These butthole paintings you did, they're so good." And I'm like, "I worked really hard on it.
他们就像是，“你画的这些屁眼画，太棒了。”我想，“我真的很努力。
It's not like what I want to be doing, but..." And they're like: Can you come in?
这不像我想做的事，但是……”他们会问：你能进来吗？
And it's just true to their title.
这正是他们的标题。
That's all it is.
仅此而已。
It's just all anal.
这只是肛门。
There's no stories about anal.
没有关于肛门的故事。
There's page after page, and they go, "Can you do this, but, like, every week?" I'm like, "What do you need?" They're like, "Superman fucking Lois Lane.
一页又一页，他们说：“你能做到这一点，但是，就像每周都做吗？”我说：“你需要什么？”他们就像是，“超人他妈的露易丝·莱恩。
Anal.
肛门。
Spider-Man fucking midgets." Whatever.
蜘蛛侠他妈的侏儒。”任何。
Just all anal.
只是全是肛门。
And I go, "I can do that.
我说：“我能做到。
I would love to do that." And they're like, "We pay a couple hundred bucks." I was like, and I took it serious.
我很乐意这样做。”他们就像，“我们付了几百美元。”我当时想，我很认真地对待这件事。
It wasn't like a, "This is my..." And a lot of actually famous artists would do that, but under fake names, and they didn't want to associate their real art with that.
这不像是“这是我的……”很多真正著名的艺术家会这样做，但用的是假名，他们不想将他们真正的艺术与此联系起来。
So I did all this art for Buttman.
所以我为巴特曼做了所有这些艺术。
Once again, if you want to cut out any names.
再说一遍，如果你想删掉任何名字。
I remember everyone's name.
我记得每个人的名字。
Art director was Heidi.
艺术总监是海蒂。
She was so sweet.
她是如此甜蜜。
She's like-- I was only used to my mom saying she likes my art, so anytime someone not in my family said they liked it, it was, "Oh, it's not just my mom.
她就像——我只习惯了我妈妈说她喜欢我的艺术，所以每当我家里以外的人说他们喜欢它时，那就是，“哦，不仅仅是我妈妈。
Other people like it." But then there's also this massive narcissist like, "I'm the best." And like, "No, I'm not that good." But it's both.
其他人喜欢它。”但也有这种巨大的自恋者，比如“我是最好的”。就像，“不，我没那么好。”但两者都是。
And I don't know why this always kept happening, but all these places I always worked at, they would always go, "You got such funny stories.
我不知道为什么这种事总是发生，但我一直工作过的所有这些地方，他们总是会说，“你有很多有趣的故事。
Do you got any?" I think I'd been with one girl.
你有吗？”我想我曾经和一个女孩在一起过。
They're like: "You have any butthole stories?" And I had been trained by black belt in lying, my mom.
他们会说：“你有什么屁话吗？”我妈妈，我接受过撒谎黑带训练。
She's like, "Yeah, of course." It was so easy for me.
她说：“是的，当然。”这对我来说太容易了。
They're like, "Oh, because these depictions of anal sex are so graphic and fantastic, and every time you come in, you have some weird story.
他们会说，“哦，因为这些对肛交的描述是如此生动和奇妙，每次你进来时，你都会有一些奇怪的故事。
Do you know any women in your life that have experiences like this?" And I go, "Oh, yeah." Super racist against Asians.
你认识的生活中的女性有过这样的经历吗？”我说：“哦，是的。”对亚洲人超级种族主义。
I go, "Oh, yeah.
我说：“哦，是的。
Suzy Suzuki." Just making up fake names.
铃木秀智。”只不过是编造假名而已。
And they're like, "You know someone named Suzy Suzuki?" I go, "Oh, yeah." She goes, "Do you think she would write about her experiences?" And I'm like, "How dumb is this lady?
他们会说，“你认识一个叫 Suzy Suzuki 的人吗？”我说：“哦，是的。”她问道：“你认为她会写下自己的经历吗？”我就想，“这位女士有多蠢？
I don't fucking know anyone named Suzy.
我他妈不认识叫苏西的人。
What the fuck?" And she goes, "It's 40 bucks a story." And I'm like, "Cool." They're paying me 150, 200 bucks for this.
搞什么鬼？”她说：“一个故事 40 美元。”我说，“酷。”他们为此付给我 150、200 美元。
So I go home, and I would just write the most ridiculous, "Hi, I don't speak English." This is the voice I hear in my head.
所以我回家后，我会写下最可笑的，“嗨，我不会说英语。”这是我在脑海中听到的声音。
"I come to America, need a job." And just writing every ridiculous male fantasy.
“我来到美国，需要一份工作。”并只是写下每一个可笑的男性幻想。
"And then he put in the wrong hole." And pornography.
“然后他进错洞了。”还有色情内容。
I became a pornographer.
我成了一名色情作家。
It's not the proudest moment of my life, but I'm like, "Oh, God." If God's looking down on me, probably...
这不是我一生中最自豪的时刻，但我想，“哦，上帝。”如果上帝看不起我的话，也许……
But once again, shame.
但再一次感到羞耻。
I'm cool with it.
我对此很满意。
I've made myself at home.
我已经像在家里一样了。
Most people, they change their name, but I was like, "This is what I do." So here we go again, my fucking poor parents.
大多数人都会改变自己的名字，但我想，“这就是我所做的。”所以我们又来了，我该死的可怜的父母。
So I'm living at home, right?
那我就住在家里吧？
So I could've done a better job hiding the graffiti.
所以我可以更好地隐藏涂鸦。
I didn't.
我没有。
They see the spray paint.
他们看到了喷漆。
They see the fucking paint on all my clothes.
他们看到我所有衣服上都有该死的油漆。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Was it good?
好吗？
Were you happy with the graffiti?
你对涂鸦满意吗？
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
No, I hated it.
不，我讨厌它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
I have so much respect for that.
我对此非常尊重。
It's everything.
这就是一切。
It's physicality.
这是肉体。
You're climbing.
你正在攀登。
You're a ninja.
你是一个忍者。
It's like fucking Navy SEAL.
这就像他妈的海豹突击队。
It's crazy.
太疯狂了。
You need to do a detail of a nose while you're balancing on barbed wire.
当你在铁丝网上保持平衡时，你需要制作鼻子的细节。
I mean, it's-
我的意思是，这是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, those kids are crazy
是的，那些孩子们疯了
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
...
...
it's insane.
这太疯狂了。
I'm like, "Fuck, dude.
我就像，“操，伙计。
These people, if they had a little bit of guidance, they could've been Navy SEALs, Green Berets, whatever." So my dad, of course, finds my pa-- Once again.
这些人，如果有一点指导，他们可能会成为海豹突击队、绿色贝雷帽等等。”所以我爸爸当然再次找到了我爸爸。
And then I sit here now as I tell this story, and it's coming.
然后我现在坐在这里讲述这个故事，它即将到来。
Why didn't I hide it better?
我为什么不把它隐藏得更好呢？
Oh, maybe I wanted to get caught.
哦，也许我想被抓住。
My dad fucking throws...
我爸他妈的扔...
He's like, "Sex?" Just once again, it's like this...
他说，“性？”就再一次，又是这样的……
Think about my dad.
想想我爸爸。
It's like his friend's kids are getting the highest SAT scores, they're getting accepted into Stanford, and they're like, "My son has hair covering his eyes." And I think I was starting to get into shitty '80s metal like Warrant and Winger and Cherry Pie, that kind of...
就好像他朋友的孩子获得了最高的 SAT 分数，他们被斯坦福大学录取，他们就像是，“我儿子的头发遮住了眼睛。”我想我开始喜欢 80 年代的烂金属，比如 Warrant、Winger 和 Cherry Pie，那种……
I listen to everything.
我什么都听。
And just shame.
只是耻辱。
Literally, not feeling it, but having another human, your father, tell you, "I'm so embarrassed of my son." Anger tears, just breaking.
从字面上看，没有感觉到，但有另一个人，你的父亲，告诉你，“我为我的儿子感到非常尴尬。”怒泪，刚断。
Why did I come to this country?
我为什么来到这个国家？
Now I could feel more when I tell it, but before I just pretended like it was happening to someone else.
现在，当我讲述这件事时，我可以感受到更多，但之前我只是假装这件事发生在别人身上。
I just disassociated.
我刚刚分手了。
I'm like, "Whatever, bro." But it wasn't whatever.
我的反应是：“随便吧，兄弟。”但这并不是什么。
It was my dad disappointed in me, my mom disappointed in me.
爸爸对我失望，妈妈对我失望。
And I'm like, "Fuck, man.
我就像，“操，伙计。
This is not really working out for me." Just rejection after rejection, and I just...
这对我来说并不真正有效。”只是一次又一次的拒绝，而我只是...
I remember the shipping.
我记得是运费
It was in the Larry Flynt building, Wilshire and La Cienega.
它位于威尔希尔和拉谢内加的拉里弗林特大楼。
And I was like, "Fuck, I live...
我当时想，“操，我还活着……
I could skate there.
我可以在那里滑冰。
I'd rather..." And I was scared to send...
我宁愿......”我害怕发送......
Oh, so this is what happened.
哦，原来是这样。
So I got busted.
所以我被抓了。
The lady, I don't know if she was a lesbian or something, she's like, "I need to meet Suzy Suzuki." It wasn't Suzuki.
这位女士，我不知道她是女同性恋还是什么，她说，“我需要见见 Suzy Suzuki。”这不是铃木。
It was a name like that.
就是这样的一个名字。
It was Trisha Toyota or something.
是特丽莎·丰田什么的。
And I go, "Heidi, are you serious right now?" I wrote that story.
我说：“海蒂，你现在是认真的吗？”我写了那个故事。
That story's ridiculous.
那个故事很可笑。
In my head, I'm like, "That's so obvious a guy wrote that." And she's like, "Hey, we might be 'Buttman Magazine,' but we print the truth." And I was like, "What the fuck?
在我的脑海里，我想，“这显然是一个人写的。”她说，“嘿，我们可能是‘巴特曼杂志’，但我们刊登的是事实。”我当时想，“他妈的怎么了？
You're telling me the 'Penthouse' letters are real?
你告诉我“阁楼”字母是真的吗？
Shut the fuck up." And she took all my art, threw it at me, and was like, "You will never be published in 'Buttman' anymore." She just, "You're done here." And I was like, "I spent a long time on those paintings." All the folds of the butthole and...
他妈的给我闭嘴。”她拿走了我所有的作品，扔给我，然后说：“你永远不会再在《巴特曼》上发表了。”她只是说：“你已经完成了。”我当时想，“我在这些画上花了很长时间。”屁眼的所有褶皱和...
I really tried hard.
我真的很努力。
And it's like rejection.
这就像拒绝。
I had gotten so used to my parents being disappointed in me.
我已经习惯了父母对我失望。
Gallery, art, it was just like, "Cool.
画廊、艺术，就像，“酷。
All right." I'm sure it didn't feel good, but I had figured out a way to internalize it and just, "All right." And then do my mom's delusional thing.
好吧。”我确信这感觉不太好，但我已经找到了一种将其内化的方法，然后只是说：“好吧。”然后做我妈妈的妄想事。
But I'm still the best, even though the world's telling me, "You're a loser." And I go, "Okay, who's the art director at 'Hustler?' W.T.
但我仍然是最好的，尽管全世界都在告诉我：“你是个失败者。”我说：“好吧，《骗子》的艺术总监是谁？ W.T.
Nelson.
纳尔逊。
Okay, I'm going to..." So I call them, and I go, "Hey, I can skate there.
好吧，我要去……”所以我打电话给他们，然后说：“嘿，我可以在那里滑冰。
It'll take me an hour to get there, but I have these paintings, and I don't want to send them in the mail.
我需要一个小时才能到达那里，但我有这些画，我不想邮寄它们。
I never sent paintings in the mail before, and I'd rather save on the shipping." And he's like, "I don't know you, dude, and I don't really..." But I had already sent the color copies and the pages that they had printed in "Buttman," and he's like, "But all right, I guess you could come." And I'm like, "Yes, I'm going to go to the Larry Flynt building.
我以前从未邮寄过画作，我宁愿节省运费。”他说，“我不认识你，伙计，我真的不认识你……”但我已经寄出了他们在《巴特曼》中打印的彩色副本和页面，他说，“但是好吧，我想你可以来。”我说：“是的，我要去拉里·弗林特大楼。
This is going to be so cool." And I go there, and he's just like, "Yeah, if you just tweak all these paintings you already did, we'll use those in Asian Fever.
这会太酷了。”我去那里，他就像，“是的，如果你调整你已经完成的所有这些画作，我们就会在《亚洲狂热》中使用它们。
We'll use these in different..." There was "Hustler" had 20 different other magazines.
我们将在不同的地方使用这些……”《Hustler》有 20 种不同的其他杂志。
And he's like, "Yeah, that story's awesome.
他说：“是的，那个故事很棒。
We'll print that story." And I was like, "Okay, cool." So I'm like, "Am I a writer?" Part of me was like, "I'm a writer.
我们将打印那个故事。”我当时想，“好吧，酷。”所以我想，“我是作家吗？”我的一部分就像，“我是一名作家。
I'm a published writer."
我是一名出版作家。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Technically, you're a professional writer at this point.
从技术上讲，此时您是一名专业作家。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
And at the time, I was also writing for "Vice." I was writing for "Giant Robot," also not getting paid.
当时，我也在为《Vice》写作。我正在为《巨型机器人》写作，也没有得到报酬。
This was the first time I got paid, so it felt like, "Oh."
这是我第一次得到报酬，所以感觉就像，“哦。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Did "Buttman" pay you?
“巴特曼”付钱给你了吗？
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
No, they didn't, because we had that fight, and they never sent the-
不，他们没有，因为我们有过那场争吵，而他们从未发送过——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Apparently they, quote, "only print the truth"-
显然他们引用了“只打印真相”-
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but they also don't pay their bills, so-
但他们也不支付账单，所以-
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the truth only goes so far for them.
对他们来说，真相仅限于此。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
So I can see a lot of my mom in that now, of how the reality is I'm not successful.
所以我现在可以从我妈妈身上看到很多，现实是我并不成功。
I'm a pornographer, but in my head, I'm like, "I'm published.
我是一名色情作家，但在我的脑海里，我想，“我出版了。
I'm a real artist.
我是一个真正的艺术家。
And I'm a writer.
我是一名作家。
I'm a scholar." And then I remember W.T.
我是一名学者。”然后我想起了 W.T.
Nelson paid me, and then it wasn't that much money, and now it's just that awkward like, "Yeah, we usually don't have the artist come to the...
尼尔森付给我钱，然后钱就没有那么多了，现在就有点尴尬了，“是的，我们通常不会让艺术家来……
It's all through mail." And, "I don't know.
这一切都是通过邮件进行的。”并且，“我不知道。
You want some porn?"
你想要一些色情片吗？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This was before Facebook.
这是在 Facebook 之前的事。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Because the reason I ask is, and I don't want to take you off track, because I was wondering when Facebook eventually paid out, when the equity popped, basically-
因为我问这个问题的原因是，我不想让你偏离正轨，因为我想知道 Facebook 最终什么时候支付，什么时候股本突然上涨，基本上 -
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
I'll get to all of it-
我会完成所有这一切-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
...
...
and I'm going to time jump, but it's just-
我要进行时间跳跃，但只是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, sure
是的，当然
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
...
...
I want to stay in the-
我想留在——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Continue
继续
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
...
...
I want to stay in the feeling.
我想留在感觉里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Please.
请。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
I'm trying to, because these are all stories I've told before, but I've never told them from an emotional perspective.
我正在努力，因为这些都是我以前讲过的故事，但我从来没有从情感的角度讲过它们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Please, yeah.
拜托，是的。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
It's always just been almost bragging, like nah, nah.
它总是几乎是在吹牛，就像不，不。
I go, I'm trying to, for the first time, sit in it, because I want to focus a little bit on the shame part.
我去，我第一次尝试坐在里面，因为我想稍微关注羞耻的部分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
And part of being an artist is just constant rejection.
作为一名艺术家的一部分就是不断地拒绝。
It's like asking a girl out over and over again.
这就像一遍又一遍地约女孩出去一样。
It's like, "You're fat, you're ugly.
就像，“你很胖，你很丑。
No, thanks." And for art, art is different.
不，谢谢。”而对于艺术来说，艺术则不同。
What you think is cool, I might think it's cheesy, and it's like Now I can see that, but before, I was like, "You're in the presence of greatness, and you're saying no to me?" I'm like, "Okay, all right.
你认为很酷的东西，我可能会认为它很俗气，就像现在我可以看到这一点，但之前，我会想，“你在伟大的面前，你却对我说不？”我想，“好吧，好吧。
I guess it's not good." So it's what I present and what I feel inside.
我想这不太好。”所以这就是我所呈现的以及我内心的感受。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm excited to share that Matina, the yerba mate drink I helped create, is now available at Whole Foods stores nationwide.
我很高兴地告诉大家，我帮助制作的马黛茶饮料 Matina 现已在全国的 Whole Foods 商店出售。
Longtime listeners of this podcast know that yerba mate is my preferred caffeine source.
这个播客的长期听众都知道马黛茶是我最喜欢的咖啡因来源。
It provides smooth energy without giving you the jitters, and it has a lot of other potential benefits, including helping to regulate your blood sugar, improving digestion, mild appetite suppression, and much more.
它提供平稳的能量，不会让您感到紧张，而且它还有很多其他潜在的好处，包括帮助调节血糖、改善消化、轻度抑制食欲等等。
Matina is my absolute favorite of all the yerba mate brands out there, and I've tried them all.
在所有马黛茶品牌中，马蒂娜绝对是我最喜欢的，而且我都尝试过。
Given my love for Matina, I decided to become a part-owner in the business, and I helped them create their new line of products, which are all entirely zero sugar.
鉴于我对 Matina 的热爱，我决定成为该公司的合伙人，并帮助他们创建了完全零糖的新产品系列。
These zero sugar cold brew Matina flavors are fantastic.
这些零糖冷萃咖啡 Matina 口味非常棒。
I drink at least three cans of them every single day.
我每天至少喝三罐。
You'll often see them on the table during my podcast recordings.
在我录制播客时，您经常会在桌子上看到它们。
I absolutely love the product, and I'm proud to now have it sold at Whole Foods.
我非常喜欢这个产品，我很自豪现在它在全食超市出售。
So check out Matina at Whole Foods stores nationwide.
因此，请到全国的 Whole Foods 商店看看 Matina。
It's cold brewed with the absolute best ingredients.
它是用绝对最好的原料冷酿的。
It has zero sugar, and it tastes amazing.
它是零糖的，而且味道棒极了。
And if you don't have a Whole Foods near you, you can also buy it online at drinkmatina.com.
如果您附近没有 Whole Foods，您也可以在 Drinkmatina.com 上在线购买。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
So part of it is they just started sending me boxes.
部分原因是他们刚刚开始给我寄盒子。
And porn was expensive.
而且色情片很贵。
Now, these spoiled kids today, you could see anything, right?
现在，这些被宠坏的孩子们，你们能看到什么，对吧？
It's just free internet.
这只是免费的互联网。
But back in the day, if you wanted to buy a video cassette or a DVD or a magazine, those things were $20.
但在当时，如果你想买一盒录像带、一张 DVD 或一本杂志，这些东西就要 20 美元。
It was expensive.
价格很贵。
And now I'm getting these care packages from "Hustler," just shit that I'm not even into, like bodybuilder, chicks with clit, just a lot of shit.
现在我从“骗子”那里得到了这些护理包，只是我什至不喜欢的狗屎，比如健美运动员，有阴蒂的小鸡，只是很多狗屎。
And I'm like...
而我就像...
It looked crazy at my apartment.
我的公寓看起来很疯狂。
I'd finally moved out of the house.
我终于搬出了家。
I was dating this girl, this crazy actress, and it was floor to, every room in the house had some kind of...
我正在和这个女孩约会，这个疯狂的女演员，地板上，房子里的每个房间都有某种......
It was kind of my identity.
这是我的身份。
They were like, "Dave the..." And she was starting to get disgusted.
他们就像，“戴夫……”她开始感到恶心。
She's like, "Who am I dating?" And I've always, at the core of all my addictions is codependence.
她就像，“我在和谁约会？”我所有成瘾的核心始终是相互依赖。
It's I don't know what's happening, or the world is scary, I don't feel safe, and I need to go along to get along, and I need to make myself small so that everyone around me feels okay, at the cost of me.
就是我不知道发生了什么，或者这个世界很可怕，我没有安全感，我需要去相处才能相处，我需要让自己变得渺小，这样我周围的每个人都感觉还好，但代价是我自己。
That's what I need.
这就是我需要的。
And so, oh, you like that kind of art?
那么，哦，你喜欢那种艺术吗？
Then I'm a chameleon.
那我就是变色龙了。
I'll switch to that.
我会切换到那个。
Oh, you like Fugazi?
哦，你喜欢富加兹吗？
Okay, I'll listen to Fugazi.
好吧，我会听富加兹的。
So it's not black and white.
所以这不是黑白分明的。
Some of it's true, and some of it's a mask.
有些是真的，有些是面具。
And I'm sitting there just really struggling, like stealing fish down my pants so I could eat dinner.
我坐在那里，真的很挣扎，就像偷鱼到我裤子里，这样我就可以吃晚饭了。
I'm not getting paid.
我没有得到报酬。
There's no money coming in.
没有钱进来。
Graffiti doesn't pay.
涂鸦不花钱。
The pornography, getting paid in porn is cool, but it's not money.
色情作品，通过色情作品获得报酬很酷，但这不是钱。
And I have a sickness.
而且我有病。
I have a sex addiction.
我有性瘾。
So it's like, "Hey, do you want 200 bucks, or do you want $1,000 in porn?" Which is nothing to them.
所以这就像是，“嘿，你想要 200 美元，还是想要 1,000 美元的色情片？”这对他们来说没什么。
It's just...
这只是...
So I'm just having a hard time, and I get to my '72 Plymouth Fury, who every time I get in it, I could kill myself or something.
所以我只是经历了一段艰难的时光，然后我就到了我的72年普利茅斯愤怒队，每次我进入它，我都可能会自杀什么的。
And there's a note on the door, and it says, "Doing a period piece movie in Los Angeles.
门上贴着一张纸条，上面写着：“在洛杉矶拍一部时代电影。
Your car, 1970, fits the time.
你的车，1970 年，正合时宜。
Can we dress it up to make it look like an undercover?" Pays something ridiculous, like 1,000 bucks a day or something.
我们可以把它打扮得像个卧底吗？”支付一些荒谬的费用，比如每天 1,000 美元之类的。
I'm like, "Fuck." These small victories.
我就像，“操。”这些小小的胜利。
Oh, fuck yeah.
哦，他妈的是的。
I show up the next day.
第二天我就出现了。
It's on the street.
它在街上。
Everything in the street, they made it look like 1970s.
街上的一切，他们都让它看起来像 20 世纪 70 年代。
There's all these other 1972...
还有其他所有这些 1972 年...
And they put the sirens on the top.
他们把警报器放在顶部。
They took the license plate off.
他们把车牌摘了下来。
And the guy that's dressing my car, one of the union guys looks in the back, and he's like, "Yo, this guy has so much porn in the back of his car." And I was like, "Yes!" And I go, "What's this movie?" And I see Johnny Depp come out of the house, and he's got blonde hair in a ponytail, and it's "Blow," that movie, "Blow" with Pee-wee Herman.
那个帮我的车打扮的人，一个工会成员往后看，他说，“哟，这家伙的车后座里有这么多色情内容。”我当时想，“是的！”我问：“这部电影是什么？”我看到约翰尼·德普从房子里出来，他有一头金发，扎着马尾辫，这是《Blow》，那部电影，是皮威·赫尔曼主演的《Blow》。
Right?
正确的？
But he wasn't in that scene.
但那个场景他并不在场。
And I'm like, "Holy fuck." I love Johnny Depp.
我就想，“天哪。”我爱约翰尼·德普。
I'm like, "Oh, fuck.
我就像，“哦，操。
That's Johnny Depp." And this guy's being really loud.
那是约翰尼·德普。”而且这家伙的声音真的很大。
He's like, "This guy has a lot of porn." And I'm like, "Oh, yeah, I work for 'Hustler.'" "You work for 'Hustler'?" So I remember that was the first time I saw a celebrity on that level in real life.
他说，“这家伙有很多色情内容。”我说，“哦，是的，我为《骗子》工作。”“你为《骗子》工作？”所以我记得那是我第一次在现实生活中看到这种级别的名人。
And I was like, "Oh, he's kind of short." But he was signing autographs and talking to everyone.
我当时想，“哦，他有点矮。”但他正在签名并与每个人交谈。
I'm like, "This guy looks...
我说：“这家伙看起来...
He seems very friendly." He had that, whatever, charisma, rizz, the kids say, and star quality.
他看起来很友善。”无论如何，他有魅力、活力，孩子们说，还有明星气质。
So then it's craft, service, lunch.
接下来就是工艺、服务、午餐。
I've never been on a movie set before, and I'm just like, I'm getting paid to do nothing and just...
我以前从未去过电影拍摄地，我只是想，我什么都不做就拿钱，只是......
And between all the background guys, I was the man because I had so much porn.
在所有背景人物中，我是那个男人，因为我有太多色情内容。
So I grabbed a sampling of it.
所以我抓住了它的一个样本。
I had some of the ones that I had drawings in, and I put some bookmark.
我有一些里面有图画，我还放了一些书签。
I don't know.
我不知道。
It's like maybe Johnny Depp's going to see my butthole paintings and be like, "Hey, paint me..." I don't know.
就像约翰尼·德普可能会看到我的屁眼画一样，“嘿，画我……”我不知道。
That's my delusion, right?
那是我的错觉吧？
So I'm like, "Is he going to eat in his own trailer, or is he going to be down with the crew?" And he was down with the crew.
所以我想，“他是要在自己的拖车里吃饭，还是要和工作人员一起去？”他和船员们一起倒下了。
So it's lunch, and it was just a scene with, I think, Ray Liotta, and all this.
所以这是午餐，我认为这只是雷·利奥塔（Ray Liotta）的一场戏，以及所有这些。
And I'm just sitting there, and I'm like, "I want Johnny Depp to see." I don't know.
我只是坐在那里，我想，“我想让约翰尼·德普看到。”我不知道。
And I'm like, "Who the fuck?" I'm 23.
我就想，“他妈的是谁？”我23岁了。
I do graffiti.
我是做涂鸦的
I got a car that doesn't work.
我有一辆不能用的车。
But I was like, "Oh, it's going to happen." So he's sitting down with the crew, he's telling stories, and I didn't have to do it.
但我当时想，“哦，这将会发生。”所以他和工作人员坐在一起，讲故事，而我不需要这样做。
Another guy was like, "Hey, Johnny, this guy has all this porn." And this guy was like, "Oh, really?" I can't do a Johnny Depp impression.
另一个人说，“嘿，约翰尼，这家伙有这么多色情片。”这家伙就像，“哦，真的吗？”我无法给约翰尼·德普留下深刻的印象。
And I was like, my cue, I was like: Hey, Johnny, see, this is my art.
我当时想，我的暗示，我当时想：嘿，约翰尼，看，这是我的艺术。
And I had some butt man in there.
我那里有一个屁股男人。
I grabbed a sampling of my-- Maybe I had some color copies of my art.
我抓起我的样本——也许我有一些我的艺术作品的彩色副本。
And he flips through it.
他翻阅了它。
He's in his wig, and he's like, "It's a lot of butts.
他戴着假发，他说，“有很多屁股。
It's a pretty singular vision." I go, "Yeah, I could do other stuff." And he just hands it back to me, and I'm like, "Oh, fuck." And I was like, "Oh, thanks, Johnny." And I was like, "Oh, that was cool." And then I'm trying to spin that in my head of like-- It immediately goes to he fucking hates you.
这是一个非常独特的愿景。”我说：“是的，我可以做其他事情。”然后他就把它还给我，我就说，“哦，操。”我当时想，“哦，谢谢，约翰尼。”我当时想，“哦，那太酷了。”然后我试着在我的脑海中旋转这个想法——它立刻就会变成他他妈的恨你。
Like, stupid.
就像，愚蠢的。
Why did you do that?
你为什么这么做？
And then, I don't know the movie.
然后，我不知道这部电影。
You know when they do a Hollywood movie, they change the name.
你知道当他们拍好莱坞电影时，他们会改变名字。
I didn't know it was going to be "Blow." That movie's awesome.
我不知道这会是“打击”。那部电影很棒。
And I feel defeated, and they're like, "Hey, we were going to pay you for two days, but we finished the scene, so you're only going to get paid for one day." And I'm like, "I'm going to get as much chicken as possible." So I started getting the Tupperware, and I'm like, "I'm going to eat for a week off this craft service food." And I'm walking out, and I see all the star wagons, and I see on a door, Paul Reubens.
我感到很挫败，他们会说，“嘿，我们本来打算付给你两天的钱，但我们完成了这一场景，所以你只能得到一天的报酬。”我想，“我会得到尽可能多的鸡肉。”所以我开始买特百惠，我想，“我要吃一周的手工服务食品。”当我走出去时，我看到了所有的明星马车，我在一扇门上看到了保罗·雷宾斯。
Melekalikahi makahiki ho.
Melekalikahi makahiki ho。
I'm like, "Here we go." Fucking my childhood.
我想，“我们开始吧。”他妈的我的童年。
And he had gotten caught jerking off in a movie theater or something.
他在电影院或其他地方自慰时被抓到了。
Maybe I can verbalize it better with the shame, but when Winona Ryder got caught shoplifting, all of that always made sense to me, and it endeared me to-- It made them look human.
也许我可以用羞耻来更好地表达它，但是当薇诺娜·瑞德(Winona Ryder)在商店行窃时被抓时，所有这一切对我来说总是有意义的，这让我很喜欢——这让他们看起来像人。
I was like, "That's weird, my childhood hero that did 'Pee-wee's Big Adventure,' 'Pee-wee's Playhouse,' getting caught jerking off, and why did he do that?
我当时想，“这很奇怪，我儿时的英雄在《皮威大冒险》、《皮威剧场》中自慰时被抓到了，他为什么要这么做呢？
Why didn't he do it at home?" But even those things I didn't understand, now I'm like, "I love that guy." I have nothing but compassion for-- And that's a lot of stuff that I had to work out with myself because a lot of things I do now is I work with murderers and at-risk youth.
他为什么不在家里做呢？”但即使是那些我不明白的事情，现在我也会说，“我爱那个人。”我除了同情之外一无所有——这是我必须自己解决的很多事情，因为我现在做的很多事情都是与杀人犯和高危青少年一起工作。
I'll work with anybody because my old self is like, "Fuck this dude.
我会和任何人一起工作，因为以前的我会说，“操这个家伙。
Fuck this person.
操这个人。
Fuck you.
操你妈的。
You hurt me.
你伤害了我。
Revenge, revenge." Very Korean.
报仇，报仇。”非常韩国。
And I work with people in prisons.
我和监狱里的人一起工作。
I go, "If you're willing to be a better version of yourself, I'm not a scientist, but I can use art and creativity to work with you to be a better person, or try at least, if you're willing.
我说：“如果你愿意成为更好的自己，我不是科学家，但我可以利用艺术和创造力与你一起成为一个更好的人，或者至少尝试一下，如果你愿意的话。
Only if you're willing.
只要你愿意。
If you're not willing, then I don't want to waste my time, and great." So, fuck it, I'm going to do it.
如果你不愿意，那我不想浪费时间，那就太好了。”所以，他妈的，我要这么做。
I said, "Johnny didn't want the porn?
我说：“约翰尼不想看色情片？
Here." And I wrote a little-- I don't remember exactly what I wrote, and I was like, "Biggest fan.
在这里。”我写了一点——我不记得自己到底写了什么，我当时想，“最大的粉丝。
Love you." I think I wrote, "I don't care what they say about you.
爱你。”我想我写道：“我不在乎他们怎么说你。
I still love you, and I can draw other stuff, but here's stuff I've done for--" And I left it on his thing and knocked, and I was too embarrassed to like-- And I ran away.
我仍然爱你，我可以画其他东西，但这是我为之而做的东西——”我把它放在他的东西上，敲了敲，我太尴尬了，不敢喜欢——然后我就跑了。
And there was so many moments.
还有很多时刻。
I remember-- And then, so it's gradual, right?
我记得——然后，所以这是渐进的，对吧？
It's like, okay, and then this little thing happens, and this.
就像，好吧，然后这件小事发生了，然后就是这样。
And it was like, I don't know, a decade before the Facebook-- And also, I don't pay attention to that stuff.
就像，我不知道，Facebook 出现之前的十年——而且，我不关注那些东西。
So as the Facebook stuff was rising, Sean would text me, and he's like, "Hey, you know those shares are worth a quarter million now," or-- But then, at the time, I was gambling, and I was making that much gambling, so I was like, "Oh, whatever.
因此，当 Facebook 的股价上涨时，肖恩会给我发短信，他说，“嘿，你知道这些股票现在价值 25 万，”或者——但当时，我在赌博，而且我赌博了那么多，所以我说，“哦，无论如何。
I don't care." And he's like, "Yo, you know they're worth a million now," and I had quietly become a millionaire by the time I was 30.
我不在乎。”他说，“哟，你知道它们现在值一百万了，”而我在 30 岁的时候已经悄然成为了百万富翁。
I had a huge art show with Steve Lazarides, who's Banksy's art guy, and I was like, I hit at the right time, that shit.
我和史蒂夫·拉扎里德斯（Steve Lazarides）一起举办了一场大型艺术展，他是班克斯的艺术专家，我当时想，我在正确的时间击中了，那该死。
Like, "Oh, fuck you, Dad.
就像，“哦，操你妈的，爸爸。
Look, I fucking made it." The art that he hated me for, I was like, "Look, there it is." And there was always a lot of anger at that.
你看，我他妈成功了。”他讨厌我的艺术，我当时想，“看，就在那里。”人们对此总是充满愤怒。
It's like, "You fucking live in a house that was paid for by spray-painted dicks, motherfucker.
就像是，“你他妈的住在一所由喷漆鸡巴支付的房子里，混蛋。
Fuck you." And it's like, I love my parents.
去你的。”就像，我爱我的父母。
It's a love-hate relationship.
这是一种又爱又恨的关系。
It's complicated.
情况很复杂。
Or maybe it's not that complicated, but it's hearing-- I know how proud of-- Even though it's not very Asian for a parent from another country to say, "I'm proud of you," we kiss on the lips, and he rubs my face, and like, "I fucking love you, dude." He doesn't cuss, but he's like: I love you.
或者也许事情没那么复杂，但它是听到——我知道多么自豪——尽管来自另一个国家的父母说“我为你感到骄傲”这句话不太亚洲化，但我们亲吻嘴唇，他揉着我的脸，就像，“我他妈的爱你，伙计。”他不骂人，但他说：我爱你。
I'm proud of you.
我为你感到骄傲。
And it's like, all that shit, it's like, So I have a lot of compassion for my family.
就像，所有这些狗屎，就像，所以我对我的家人充满同情心。
So I remember, and then things like I started working for Vice.
所以我记得，然后我开始为 Vice 工作。
I had this relationship with Gavin McInnes and Shane Smith, and they're like, "Hey, you went to Africa to look for a dinosaur.
我与加文·麦金尼斯和肖恩·史密斯有这种关系，他们就像，“嘿，你去非洲寻找恐龙。
You hitchhike." And this was as print is dying, and they were the first early adopters of tech, and they're like, "Vice is going to move to online." I'm like, "Who?" I'm always the guy that's like, "Who the fuck?" I'm like Korean Forrest Gump.
你搭便车。”当时印刷品正在消亡，他们是第一批技术的早期采用者，他们就像，“Vice 将转移到网络上。”我想，“谁？”我总是那个会问“他妈的是谁？”的人。我就像韩国的阿甘。
I'm just in the room with the most important things in life happening.
我就在房间里，生命中最重要的事情正在发生。
And I go, "All right, cool." And they're like, "What can you film for nothing?" Spike Jonze was there in the beginning, Johnny Knoxville.
我说：“好吧，酷。”他们会说，“你能免费拍什么？”斯派克·琼斯（Spike Jonze）一开始就在那里，约翰尼·诺克斯维尔（Johnny Knoxville）。
It was the beginning of that, of Vice.
这是《Vice》的开始。
And it ended all fucked up because of greed and all that shit, but I was like, "Every time I hitchhike, something crazy happens." They're like, "Okay, cool.
由于贪婪和所有这些狗屎，事情最终变得一团糟，但我想，“每次我搭便车，都会发生一些疯狂的事情。”他们就像，“好吧，酷。
Film that." So then I started filming "Thumbs Up." This is what I was saying with time.
拍那个。”于是我开始拍摄《竖起大拇指》。这就是我对时间所说的话。
I think it was 20 years ago.
我想那是20年前的事了。
And I do all that shit, and then it's like all the things, like I was saying, that I was arrested for or I got shamed for or embarrassed for, now people are giving me money and jobs, and they're like, "Yeah, all that fucked up shit, can you do it on camera?" And I was like, "Oh, they like me.
我做了所有这些狗屎，然后就像所有的事情，就像我说的，我因为被捕或感到羞耻或尴尬而被捕，现在人们给我钱和工作，他们就像，“是的，所有这些操蛋的狗屎，你能在镜头前做吗？”我当时想，“哦，他们喜欢我。
My mother was right." And, so one day, my friend Dave Chang, who also has severe gambling issues.
我妈妈是对的。”有一天，我的朋友戴夫·张（Dave Chang）也有严重的赌博问题。
I didn't want to meet that guy because that was like looking in a mirror.
我不想见到那个人，因为那就像照镜子一样。
Everyone's like, "He's you, but of cooking." And I was like, "I need to meet with people that lift me out of my shit, not..." That's why I hate meeting other addicts, because then it's like you never know how it...
每个人都会说，“他就是你，但是会做饭。”我当时想，“我需要见见那些能让我摆脱困境的人，而不是……”这就是为什么我讨厌见到其他瘾君子，因为那样就好像你永远不知道它是如何……
Right now I'm sitting here telling you, if I started this show telling you what I least want to share, it's like, now I'm addicted to Pokémon.
现在我坐在这里告诉你，如果我开始这个节目告诉你我最不想分享的事情，就像，现在我对神奇宝贝上瘾了。
Right?
正确的？
You go, "Oh, you haven't gambled in a casino in 10 years." And then you pat yourself on the back.
你会说：“哦，你已经十年没去赌场赌博了。”然后你拍拍自己的背。
And then the worst thing happens.
然后最糟糕的事情发生了。
My kid gets into Pokémon, I go in a shop.
我的孩子喜欢神奇宝贝，我则去商店。
I had no idea that packs cost $20.
我不知道一包要20美元。
I open a pack, and the worst possible thing could happen.
我打开一个包装，最糟糕的事情可能会发生。
I get the hit card.
我得到了击中卡。
It's like, "You got the Umbreon, the $1,000..." And I'm like, "Wait, wait, wait.
就像，“你得到了 Umbreon，1,000 美元……”我说，“等等，等等，等等。
Hold on.
坚持住。
Wait, what?" And I go, "Oh, this is gambling." And in six months, I've gone from maybe I'll spend 100 bucks, which at the time was, like, for fucking cards, and now I spend thousands of dollars a day on it.
等等，什么？”我说：“哦，这是赌博。”六个月后，我从可能花 100 美元（当时相当于买他妈的卡片）变成了现在每天花数千美元。
And I always turn my addictions, which I'm always open about, into my job.
我总是把我一直公开谈论的嗜好变成我的工作。
But it's for work.
但这是为了工作。
The buttholes, that was for work.
屁眼，那是为了工作。
Everything's for work.
一切都是为了工作。
It's like, oh, now I'm drawing on the...
就像，哦，现在我正在画...
I got one for you.
我给你准备了一张。
I'll give it to you later.
我稍后给你。
I drew on Mike Tyson for you because I know that you like Mike or Jack.
我为你推荐了迈克·泰森，因为我知道你喜欢迈克或杰克。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I should give context to that.
我应该给出相关背景。
Dave sent me a text yesterday.
戴夫昨天给我发了一条短信。
He said, "Oh, what's your favorite Pokémon?" And I don't know, because I don't follow Pokémon.
他说：“哦，你最喜欢的神奇宝贝是什么？”我不知道，因为我不关注神奇宝贝。
Then he goes, "What's your favorite athlete?" And I said, "Mike Tyson."
然后他问道：“你最喜欢的运动员是什么？”我说：“迈克·泰森。”
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
That's a Pikachu painted on top of Mike Tyson for you.
那是为你画在迈克·泰森身上的皮卡丘。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, this is so dope.
哦，这太酷了。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
So, I mean, it's like-
所以，我的意思是，这就像——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
You're welcome.
不客气。
You know the addictions, the things they say about addiction is it's baffling, cunning, seductive.
你知道毒瘾，他们所说的毒瘾是令人困惑的、狡猾的、诱人的。
And so I'm like, oh, the gambling comes up in other ways.
所以我想，哦，赌博还以其他方式出现。
It's like trading cards, like little things.
这就像交易卡，就像小事一样。
And it's like, as a middle-aged man, and I'm shaming myself, it doesn't feel good to be...
就像，作为一个中年男人，我在羞辱自己，感觉不太好......
I'm friends with guys that are like Money Mark, who's in the Beastie Boys.
我和 Beastie Boys 中的 Money Mark 等人都是朋友。
He's 65.
他 65 岁了。
And my friend Bill Poon, who I used to do a podcast, he's 62.
我的朋友比尔·潘（Bill Poon）今年 62 岁，我曾经做过一个播客。
So, I'm a middle-aged man hanging out with other middle-aged men in the middle of the night talking about "Predator: Badlands," talking about childish, arrested development type of shit.
所以，我是一个中年男人，在半夜和其他中年男人一起闲逛，谈论“铁血战士：荒地”，谈论幼稚的、发展受阻的狗屎。
And the thing is, I've been to countries and cultures where, even being a Mormon and when you turn 18, there is a ritual that happens that says, "Now you're a man." And we don't have that in our culture, so that's why you have grown men wearing Pokémon T-shirts and talking about fantasy.
事实是，我去过一些国家和文化，在那里，即使是摩门教徒，当你年满 18 岁时，也会有一种仪式说：“现在你是一个男人了。”我们的文化中没有这样的东西，所以这就是为什么成年男人穿着神奇宝贝 T 恤并谈论幻想。
It's all the same.
都是一样的。
Fantasy football.
梦幻足球。
It's all fantasy.
这都是幻想。
It's all immature shit.
都是不成熟的玩意儿。
And you just have grown men collecting toys and comic books and talking about cards.
而你们只是长大了的男人收集玩具和漫画书并谈论卡片。
And it's like, okay, if it makes you happy, cool, I guess.
就像，好吧，如果这能让你快乐，我想那就酷了。
But there's always a part of me that's dissatisfied.
但我内心总有不满意的地方。
I do my daily affirmations of like, "I don't need to do anything today for Andrew to like me." Like, I'm enough.
我每天都会做出这样的肯定：“我今天不需要做任何事情就能让安德鲁喜欢我。”比如说，我就够了。
I have to sit in that.
我必须坐在那儿。
And it's like, "No, I got to..." And then I got it from you.
就像，“不，我必须……”然后我从你那里得到了它。
It's like, we talked once on the phone before I showed up today, and you've sent me a mountain of this yerba mate, this delicious Matéina.
就像，在我今天出现之前我们通了一次电话，你给我寄了一大堆马黛茶，这种美味的马黛纳。
And I'm like, this is like crack to me now.
我想，这对我来说就像是裂缝。
And I'm like, "Oh, this guy I don't know is just sending...
我想，“哦，这个我不认识的人只是发送......
Hey, can I get some more of that?" And I told you I was starting to get sick, and you're like, "Oh, I'm going to send you some peptides and da, da, da." And I go, "What a sweetie." And cute, and awesome, and very handsome, and your shirts, the way they fit every time.
嘿，我可以再拿一些吗？”我告诉你我开始生病了，你就像，“哦，我要给你寄一些肽，哒，哒，哒。”我说：“真是个可爱的人啊。”又可爱，又棒，又非常英俊，还有你的衬衫，每次都很合身。
I'm like, dude, and you got some guns, and the clothes look good.
我说，伙计，你有一些枪，而且衣服看起来不错。
I'm jealous of your posture.
我很羡慕你的姿势
And I just go, "Oh, this guy's a caretaker." I don't even fucking know the guy, and he's sending me, I don't know if peptide's a drug, but he's like, "Oh, I'll help you, Dave.
我只是说，“哦，这个人是看门人。”我根本不认识这个人，他给我发来了，我不知道肽是不是一种药物，但他说，“哦，我会帮助你的，戴夫。
I'll send you these experimental medicines and this." And I go, "Thank you, but also, you don't need to do any of that." I just wanted to meet you and-
我会把这些实验药物和这个寄给你。”我说：“谢谢你，但你也不需要做这些。”我只是想见见你并且-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
To be clear, I know I don't have to.
需要明确的是，我知道我没有必要这样做。
It's in my nature to want to care for people that I feel loved towards.
我的天性就是想要照顾我感到被爱的人。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
I know, but we just met, and I'm like, those things take time.
我知道，但我们才刚认识，我想，这些事情需要时间。
And then you're like, "No, I got people to do that," or whatever.
然后你会说，“不，我有人这么做”，或者其他什么。
And I go, I'll speak for myself.
我走了，我会为自己说话。
The cost of that at some point is you, right?
在某些时候，成本就是你，对吗？
When you spend so much time thinking of others.
当你花那么多时间为别人着想的时候。
And it feels against how I was raised.
这感觉违背了我的成长方式。
I go, "Oh, fuck, this feels selfish for me to..." At the height of my workaholism, I was touring with my band.
我说，“哦，操，这对我来说太自私了……”在我工作狂的巅峰时期，我正在和我的乐队一起巡演。
My podcast was "DVDASA," which I did with Asa Akira, porn star, and Bobby Lee and Steve Lee.
我的播客是“DVDASA”，是我与色情明星 Asa Akira、Bobby Lee 和 Steve Lee 一起制作的。
It was becoming the biggest.
它正在成为最大的。
There was no one doing podcasts back then.
那时没有人做播客。
It was Joe, Adam Carolla.
是乔，亚当·卡罗拉。
I'm trying to remember.
我正在努力回忆。
It wasn't what it is now.
以前不是现在这样。
And so it was insane, because I grew up on Howard Stern, and I'm like Just hearing him fight, you couldn't say a certain thing, and then he'd get punished by the FCC.
这太疯狂了，因为我是看着霍华德·斯特恩长大的，我觉得只要听他打架，你就不能说某件事，然后他就会受到联邦通信委员会的惩罚。
And then someone was like, "Hey, Dave, you know what a podcast is?" I go, "It sounds weird.
然后有人说，“嘿，戴夫，你知道播客是什么吗？”我说：“听起来很奇怪。
What's a podcast?" And they go...
什么是播客？”他们去...
And talking about terrestrial radio and the FCC and rules.
并谈论地面广播以及 FCC 和规则。
And it was like, it's a new canvas.
就像，这是一块新画布。
I was like, "You can say anything?
我当时想，“你能说点什么吗？
You can fucking say...
你他妈可以说...
You could fucking cuss and tell the worst story?" And I couldn't believe that it existed.
你他妈的还能骂脏话，讲最糟糕的故事吗？”我简直不敢相信它的存在。
I couldn't believe.
我简直不敢相信。
And I didn't come in with a mission statement, and I know intention's huge, and part of it was I was just running and running.
我没有带着使命宣言进来，我知道我的意图是巨大的，其中一部分是我只是不断地奔跑。
But now in hindsight, I go, "What was that?" And I was like, "Oh, shame chasing." I was like, "How can I record the downfall of me?
但现在事后看来，我会问：“那是什么？”我当时想，“哦，追逐耻辱。”我当时想，“我该如何记录我的失败呢？
How much can I go over the edge?
我能越过多少界限？
How much can I push up against this boundary and see it?" Because let me see if you care, right?
我能在多大程度上推动这个边界并看到它？”因为让我看看你是否关心，对吧？
First of all, I was like, "No one's listening." Turns out it was a lot of people listening, but I didn't know that at the...
首先，我想，“没有人在听。”原来有很多人在听，但我不知道......
We started, I was like, "Let's just go.
我们开始了，我当时想，“我们走吧。
Let's record our downfall.
让我们记录一下我们的失败吧。
Let's record our bottom, as an addict, I'm chasing shame." In a way, it's like someone who's a flasher.
让我们记录下我们的底部吧，作为一个瘾君子，我正在追逐耻辱。”在某种程度上，这就像一个闪光的人。
They're like, "What kind of person gets off on running down the street?" I was like, "That's what I'm doing.
他们会问，“什么样的人会因为在街上跑步而感到兴奋呢？”我当时想，“这就是我正在做的事情。
I'm not a mentally well person, that I'm dealing with demons inside me that I don't know how to articulate, so I'm going to workaholism.
我不是一个心理健康的人，我正在与内心的恶魔打交道，我不知道如何表达，所以我会成为工作狂。
And I'm trying to find myself and find out what I'm trying..." And it's just so painful.
我正在努力寻找自己，找出我正在尝试的东西……”这真是太痛苦了。
And I feel misunderstood, and I go, "Let's just fucking say the worst possible things every episode and make fun of it like a joke." And once again, if I look back and I go, "What's the worst things that ever happened to me?" Jail, getting canceled multiple times.
我感觉自己被误解了，然后我就说：“我们就他妈的每一集都说一些最糟糕的事情，然后像个笑话一样取笑它。”再一次，如果我回顾过去，我会问：“我经历过的最糟糕的事情是什么？”入狱，多次被取消。
It's like all of it led to the best moments of my life.
就好像这一切都带来了我一生中最美好的时刻。
So I don't sit here and judge, "Oh, this was good, this was bad," because good moments lead to bad.
所以我不会坐在这里判断，“哦，这很好，这很糟糕”，因为好的时刻会导致坏的时刻。
It's just life, right?
这就是生活，对吧？
It's fluid, and there's a spectrum of good and bad.
它是流动的，有好有坏。
So I remember just there was so many...
所以我记得有这么多...
I'm doing this podcast, and in my mind, I was like...
我正在做这个播客，在我看来，我就像......
And having Howard Stern write me that, going on his show and him telling me afterwards in private, "Dude, you're out of control," was the greatest compliment.
霍华德·斯特恩（Howard Stern）在参加他的节目并私下告诉我“伙计，你失控了”时写信给我，这是最大的赞美。
Howard Stern, the king of all media, telling me.
所有媒体之王霍华德·斯特恩告诉我。
And I asked him on the show if he can adopt me, and I'm like, "I'm the prince of all media.
我在节目中问他是否可以收养我，我说，“我是所有媒体的王子。
I fucking do comics, and I do fine art.
我他妈的画漫画，我也画美术。
I do graffiti.
我是做涂鸦的
I can do anything." And to have that validation and, we don't talk regularly, but I started sending him watercolor stuff, and then he got into watercolor.
我可以做任何事。”为了得到这种验证，我们不定期交谈，但我开始给他寄水彩画的东西，然后他就开始研究水彩画了。
And he's fucking really good.
而且他他妈的真的很好。
Like everything, he went into it.
就像所有事情一样，他投入其中。
And then at one point, I was talking to his producers about being on Sirius right after him, and I was like, "Jane Cho was right.
然后有一次，我和他的制片人讨论了紧随他之后在 Sirius 上的事情，我当时想，“Jane Cho 是对的。
I am the greatest.
我是最伟大的。
I can do anything." And then people started listening, and they're like, "These people are saying the worst shit ever." And I was like, "I know, but don't they know I'm a comedian?
我可以做任何事。”然后人们开始听，他们就像，“这些人说的是有史以来最糟糕的狗屎。”我当时想，“我知道，但是他们不知道我是喜剧演员吗？
You never told anyone." And that's not funny, but whatever.
你从来没有告诉过任何人。”这并不好笑，但无论如何。
I shouldn't have said a lot of the things I said, and I never gave...
我不该说的很多话，我也从来没有付出过……
As an artist, I don't like expl...
作为一名艺术家，我不喜欢解释...
Like, "Here's my black penis I painted on the wall." I paint and I do stuff, but the mistake that I made was words.
就像，“这是我在墙上画的黑色阴茎。”我画画、做事，但我犯的错误是言语。
In the spectrum of entertainment and art, everyone watches movies and video g- that's up here, so that has the most eyeballs on it.
在娱乐和艺术领域，每个人都看电影和视频，这是最受关注的。
Then you go all the way down to, at the time, podcasts, art gallery.
然后你一路深入到当时的播客、艺术画廊。
You do whatever you want.
你想做什么就做什么。
No one cares.
没有人关心。
And so that's how I was approaching it.
这就是我的处理方式。
And people go, "When you paint the most fucking vile, obscene, disgusting shit, it's still a painting, right?
人们会说，“当你画出最他妈的卑鄙、淫秽、恶心的狗屎时，它仍然是一幅画，对吧？
But when you say stuff, people take it literally." Like you're coming at a microphone like it's a- Ah!
但当你说话时，人们会从字面上理解。”就像你冲着麦克风一样——啊！
Ah!
啊!
Oh, shit, I scared myself.
哦，妈的，我自己都害怕了。
That was so good.
那太好了。
I love that.
我喜欢那个。
Oh my God, that one felt good.
天哪，那个感觉真好。
That was a good scream.
那是一声很好的尖叫。
That was like your punk rock.
这就像你的朋克摇滚。
Someone sample that, turn that into a punk rock song.
有人采样，把它变成一首朋克摇滚歌曲。
But I treated it like it was just another...
但我对待它就像它只是另一个......
It was Sean Parker.
这是肖恩·帕克。
I'm not blaming.
我不是在责备。
It was these people in my life that I witnessed as successful, they didn't take reality seriously, right?
我见证了我生命中的这些成功人士，他们没有认真对待现实，对吗？
I'm like, "I don't care.
我说：“我不在乎。
I'm going to push it as far as I can because I don't care, because I don't respect reality." I never have.
我会尽我所能地推动它，因为我不在乎，因为我不尊重现实。”我从来没有。
Like, "Oh, is that what you saw?
就像，“哦，这就是你看到的吗？
You fucking believe in Santa?" Yes.
你他妈还信圣诞老人吗？”是的。
Yes, I believe.
是的，我相信。
Look into my eyes.
看着我的眼睛。
I believe in Santa Claus 100%.
我百分百相信圣诞老人的存在。
There's no part of me that doubts that.
我对此毫不怀疑。
That's who you're talking to, a mentally ill person working on himself, trying to express himself as a perfectly imperfect, unrepeatable miracle of the universe.
这就是你正在交谈的人，一个正在自我改造的精神病人，试图将自己表达为一个完全不完美、不可重复的宇宙奇迹。
I'm trying my best.
我正在尽力。
That's it.
就是这样。
So I meet, David Chang.
于是我遇见了张大卫。
I become friends with him.
我和他成为朋友。
He's like, "Let's go to dinner.
他说：“我们去吃晚饭吧。
I'm going to bring my friend," and his friend happens to be Anthony Bourdain.
我要带我的朋友来，”而他的朋友恰好是安东尼·波登。
Immediately, I've met my brother.
很快，我就见到了我的兄弟。
He's older than me, but it was just ex-heroine addict, got through it through workaholism.
他比我大，但只是前女主角瘾君子，通过工作狂熬过来的。
And I could see that he was tired.
我看得出来他很累。
And he had a thing that he kept saying.
他有一句话一直在说。
He's like "What's your life?
他就像“你的生活是什么？
You just fucking watch TV and watch 'The Simpsons?'" And he had this story like, "I have to live an interesting life." And he's like, "Oh, I'm doing..." So I developed a friendship with him because it was just organic.
你他妈的只是看电视，看《辛普森一家》？”他的故事就像是，“我必须过有趣的生活。”他说，“哦，我在做……”所以我和他建立了友谊，因为这是有机的。
It wasn't like, "Oh, I want to..." He was, in a way, grooming either Chang or me or Roy Choi.
这并不是说，“哦，我想……”在某种程度上，他是在培养张、我或罗伊·崔。
I don't know, he liked Asians, but he was grooming us to take over, basically.
我不知道，他喜欢亚洲人，但基本上他是在培养我们接管。
And that once again fed my ego of like, "Oh, he can see what my mom...
这再次满足了我的自负，“哦，他可以看到我妈妈的东西......
He thinks I'm special.
他认为我很特别。
The guy that is the most interesting person on the planet wants me to take over." Like, "Oh my God, this is great." So he's like, his show changes names.
这个星球上最有趣的人希望我接手。”就像，“天哪，这太棒了。”所以他就像，他的节目改了名字。
"No Reservations," it kept changing.
“无保留”，它不断变化。
And so, every time I ate with him, it was insane.
所以，每次我和他一起吃饭，都是疯狂的。
I don't know if he had eating disorders or what, but it's Anthony Bourdain, so you go in a restaurant, and they bring out every fucking food.
我不知道他是否患有饮食失调症或什么，但这是安东尼·波登，所以你走进一家餐馆，他们把所有他妈的食物都端上来。
Like everything.
喜欢一切。
And I go, I'm watching him.
然后我就走了，我看着他。
He takes a sip of water.
他喝了一口水。
"Thank you.
“谢谢你。
Can you wrap this up?" I'm like, "You're not going to eat?" Because everywhere he went, every chef wanted to...
你能把这件事结束吗？”我说：“你不吃饭吗？”因为无论他走到哪里，每个厨师都想……
And he's like, "Dave, if I ate all this shit, I'd be like 300 pounds." So I'm like, "Can I take it home?" He's like, "Yeah, you could have it." And then as I got to know him a little better, every time he came to LA to stay at Chateau Marmont, and I'd be like, "Is your life just eating at restaurants?" And he's like, "Yeah." I go, "Hey, from now on, just come to my house.
他说：“戴夫，如果我吃了这么多东西，我的体重就会达到 300 磅。”于是我就想，“我可以把它带回家吗？”他说：“是的，你可以拥有它。”然后当我对他有了更多的了解后，每次他来洛杉矶住在马尔蒙城堡酒店时，我都会问，“你的生活就只是在餐馆吃饭吗？”他说：“是的。”我说：“嘿，从现在开始，就来我家吧。
My mom's like..." He's like, "I would fucking love that." He closes his eyes like.
我妈妈就像……”他说，“我真他妈喜欢那个。”他闭上眼睛，就像。
So whenever he'd come to LA, he would go to my mom's house.
所以每当他来洛杉矶时，他都会去我妈妈家。
My mom loved him.
我妈妈爱他。
Tony and my mom were-- I don't know what his relationship with his mom was like, but he loved my mom, and he'd always-- He knew culture, so he'd always bring the Asian pears.
托尼和我妈妈——我不知道他和他妈妈的关系怎么样，但他爱我妈妈，而且他总是——他了解文化，所以他总是带来亚洲梨。
He knew, like, "Oh, I'm going to a Korean's house." And then after a while, when I meet people that I love and I respect, I value the friendship, so I don't go, "And that doesn't mean I don't value you." I was like, "I would love to be friends with you first before doing your podcast," but I was like, "Fuck it.
他知道，就像，“哦，我要去一个韩国人的房子。”过了一段时间，当我遇到我爱和尊重的人时，我会珍惜这段友谊，所以我不会说：“这并不意味着我不重视你。”我当时想，“在做你的播客之前，我很想先和你成为朋友，”但我当时想，“操它。
Let's just jump into it." But-
让我们跳进去吧。”但是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We'll do it in reverse.
我们会反过来做。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah, we'll do it in reverse.
是的，我们会反过来做。
And same thing, I never asked to be on his show.
同样的，我从来没有要求参加他的节目。
But after a while, he just was like, "Dave, I'm doing LA." And I go, "But haven't you done LA?" He goes, "Yeah, but this is specifically Koreatown." And I go, "Okay." I grew up in Korea.
但过了一会儿，他就说，“戴夫，我要去洛杉矶。”我说：“但是你还没去过洛杉矶吗？”他说：“是的，但这就是韩国城。”我说：“好吧。”我在韩国长大。
I was born and raised in Koreatown.
我在韩国城出生和长大。
But, so then his production company, Zero Point Zero.
但是，那么他的制作公司，零点零。
I loved it because when I did "Thumbs Up," I'm everything.
我喜欢它，因为当我唱“竖起大拇指”时，我就是一切。
I'm the director, I'm the production.
我是导演，我是制片。
"Thumbs Up" is me, my friend Harry, a camera guy, and, like, a chase van.
“竖起大拇指”是我，我的朋友哈利，一个摄影师，还有一辆追逐车。
That's it.
就是这样。
It's four people.
是四个人。
But, I was like, "Oh, this is what a real TV show is like." You had guys setting up shots, and it was a lot of people, and I go, "Oh, fuck.
但是，我想，“哦，这就是真正的电视节目。”你们有人准备拍摄，而且有很多人，我说，“哦，操。
This seems cool.
这看起来很酷。
You don't have to..." So his producer calls me and goes, "Okay, we're going to set this show up for two months from now, and it's Koreatown centric." And I go, "Okay, but do you want to do fake?
你不必……”所以他的制片人打电话给我说，“好吧，我们将从现在起两个月内安排这个节目，并且以韩国城为中心。”我说：“好吧，但是你想假装吗？
I'm down.
我很沮丧。
What do you guys need?
你们需要什么？
I know all the restaurants and stuff in Koreatown now, but Koreans don't eat Korean food.
我现在知道韩国城里所有的餐馆什么的了，但是韩国人不吃韩国菜。
From my era, we didn't have any money, so when we go out, we eat at Sizzler, we eat at Denny's.
从我那个时代开始，我们就没有钱，所以当我们出去的时候，我们就在Sizzler、Denny's吃饭。
We get Korean food at home." So if he's trying to do an authentic story about where I eat in Korea, it's in Koreatown, it's Sizzler.
我们在家吃韩国菜。”所以，如果他想写一个关于我在韩国吃饭的地方的真实故事，那就是在韩国城，那就是 Sizzler。
And every Korean-American I know eats at Sizzler.
我认识的每个韩裔美国人都在 Sizzler 吃饭。
And so she's like, "So you're telling me we're going to bring Anthony Bourdain to spend all this money to take him to Siz?" I go, "Hey, I just told you, I'll fake it.
所以她说，“所以你是告诉我，我们要带安东尼·波登（Anthony Bourdain）花所有这些钱带他去西兹（Siz）？”我说：“嘿，我刚刚告诉过你，我会假装的。
I know all the new spots.
我知道所有的新景点。
I know all the chefs.
我认识所有的厨师。
But I didn't eat that shit growing up." He goes, "No, Tony loves authenticity." I'm like, "We're going to fucking Sizzler then." So we do this whole episode.
但我从小到大都没吃过那些东西。”他说：“不，托尼喜欢真实。”我想，“那我们就去他妈的 Sizzler 吧。”所以我们做这整集。
He comes to my warehouse and he's-- It's like pitfall after pitfall.
他来到我的仓库，然后——这就像一个又一个的陷阱。
I remember at the time, Channing Tatum came to my-- His agent, this guy Bill, Korean guy, Channing Tatum's agent's Korean, and he calls me and he goes, "My client, Channing Tatum, loves you." And it's like after all these things and getting canceled over and over again in comics and whatever field I went in, there was always, "You're not supposed to do that.
我记得当时查宁·塔图姆来找我——他的经纪人，比尔，韩国人，查宁·塔图姆的经纪人是韩国人，他打电话给我，他说：“我的客户查宁·塔图姆爱你。”就像经历了所有这些事情并在漫画中一次又一次地被取消一样，无论我进入什么领域，总是会有“你不应该这样做。
You're not supposed to paint on a Mike Tyson card.
你不应该在迈克·泰森的卡片上绘画。
You're not supposed to paint over this graffiti.
你不应该在这幅涂鸦上作画。
You're not supposed to-- There's rules that you're not following." And I'm like, it was this my whole life.
你不应该——有些规则你没有遵守。”我想，这就是我的一生。
So I remember Channing Tatum was also attracted to that, and he showed up with his agent, and he's like, he had just done-- He was a pretty boy.
所以我记得查宁·塔图姆也对此感兴趣，他和他的经纪人一起出现，他就像，他刚刚完成了——他是一个漂亮的男孩。
He's one of the most handsome guys, but he's so talented.
他是最英俊的人之一，但他很有才华。
And I'm like, "I don't fucking want to meet Channing.
我当时想，“我他妈的不想见到钱宁。
I don't care about Channing Tatum." And then he came to the warehouse, and he's like, "Don't think of me as just, like, the pretty boy dancing, 'Step Up,' 'From the Streets' guy.
我不在乎查宁·塔图姆。”然后他来到仓库，他说，“别以为我只是那个跳舞的漂亮男孩，‘站起来’，‘来自街头’的家伙。
I'm about to do 'G.I.
我正要做《G.I.》
Joe,' but I'm like..." And I'd put out zines and self-published books, and I write the way I talk right now, and he'd read that.
乔，’但我就像……”我出版了杂志和自行出版的书籍，我用我现在说话的方式写作，他会读到这些。
And I was like, "Channing Tatum read..." He goes, "You're a great writer." And I'm like, "There it is again." I'm like, "I write porn." He's like, "No, no, no. You have a way of talking and writing that I need to be a part of that." I go, "But I've never written a script." He goes, "Whatever you write, I'm going to produce it." And I go, "Holy shit, dude.
我当时想，“查宁·塔图姆读了……”他说，“你是一位伟大的作家。”我想，“又来了。”我想，“我写色情片。”他说，“不，不，不。你有一种说话和写作的方式，我需要成为其中的一部分。”我说：“但我从来没有写过剧本。”他说：“无论你写什么，我都会制作它。”我说：“天哪，伙计。
This is amazing." And then, I don't know, I'm time jumping, but at some point, I got a little cocky, and he'd put out "21 Jump Street," which Johnny Depp, you know.
这太棒了。”然后，我不知道，我在跳跃，但在某些时候，我变得有点自大，他推出了“21 Jump Street”，约翰尼·德普，你知道。
And I said, "There's Ice Cube talking to Korean Jesus during that movie.
我说：“在那部电影中，艾斯·库珀正在与韩国耶稣交谈。
Do you guys still have that Korean Jesus?" He's like, "Oh yeah, we made that for the..." I go If you guys want to work with me, I need that Korean Jesus.
你们还有那个韩国耶稣吗？”他说，“哦，是的，我们做这个是为了……”我走了，如果你们想和我一起工作，我需要那个韩国耶稣。
So they sent me the Korean Jesus, and I put it in my warehouse and I prayed to it every night.
所以他们送了我韩国耶稣，我把它放在我的仓库里，我每天晚上都向它祈祷。
I prayed to Korean Jesus.
我向韩国耶稣祈祷。
And what else?
还有什么？
Because of all the canceling, it's like if I get canceled at Marvel, then DC wants to work with me.
因为所有的取消，就好像如果我在漫威被取消，那么 DC 就会想和我合作。
So it's like, once again, being rewarded for the bad behavior.
所以这就像再次因为不良行为而受到奖励。
So there's this editor at DC Comics.
DC 漫画有一位编辑。
Oh, cool.
哦，酷。
I can't draw Hulk and Wolverine, but Batman, Superman.
我不会画绿巨人和金刚狼，但可以画蝙蝠侠、超人。
And this guy, Axel Alonso, who worked at Vertigo, which was the more adult, they do Sandman and stuff like that.
还有这个人，阿克塞尔·阿隆索，他在 Vertigo 工作过，那家公司比较成熟，他们做桑德曼之类的东西。
He contacts me and he's like: "I've been reading your fucking fucked-up articles in Vice." He's like: "You're a writer." I go, "Whoa." That's the thing that I have the most respect for is writing.
他联系了我，然后说：“我一直在 Vice 上读你那些该死的文章。”他说：“你是个作家。”我说，“哇。”我最尊敬的事情就是写作。
I have a book in me.
我心里有一本书。
I haven't sat down, but it's in here.
我还没坐下，但它就在这里。
I'm too scared to get it out.
我太害怕了，不敢把它拿出来。
But he's like: "Yeah, your art's okay." I go, "Okay." And he goes, "I want you to write a book about..." It was like Koreatown gangsters or...
但他说：“是的，你的艺术还不错。”我说：“好吧。”他说，“我想让你写一本关于……”的书，就像韩国城的黑帮或……
And it was shit that I didn't know about, and I was like, "Fuck it, I'll make it up." And I was like: "Yeah, I'm going to write it like this," and he's like, "No, you're going to write it, and someone else is going to draw it." I was like, "Oh, okay." And then I started writing it, and I start writing him emails, like, "It's done," and email bounced back.
这是我不知道的事情，我当时想，“操，我会弥补的。”我当时想：“是的，我要这样写，”他说，“不，你要写它，其他人要画它。”我当时想，“哦，好吧。”然后我开始写它，我开始给他写电子邮件，比如，“已经完成了”，然后电子邮件就被退回了。
He quit and moved to Marvel, and I'm like, "Oh, fuck, it was almost about to happen again." And then my podcast starts getting bigger and bigger, so I'm in my full workaholism.
他辞职并搬到了漫威，我当时想，“哦，操，这几乎就要再次发生了。”然后我的播客开始变得越来越大，所以我完全处于工作狂状态。
I'm aware that I'm an addict.
我知道我是个瘾君子。
I'm in my full addiction.
我完全上瘾了。
I'm gambling with my life and life savings every single day while touring with my band, Mongchi, doing the news for Vice, doing art shows legally around the world, and doing illegal.
我每天都在用我的生命和毕生积蓄进行赌博，同时与我的乐队 Mongchi 一起巡演，为 Vice 做新闻，在世界各地合法地进行艺术展览，并从事非法活动。
And people are like, "Are you on coke?" I'm like, I don't do...
人们会问，“你喝可乐了吗？”我就像，我不这样做...
I get high off-- Each thing is like I have to do the-- I'm not enough.
我很兴奋——每件事都像是我必须做的——我还不够。
That's what I did believe about myself and still sometimes today is everything the world had shown me, besides from my mother, is that you're not.
这就是我对自己的信念，但今天有时，除了我母亲之外，世界向我展示的一切都表明你不是。
And that was also confusing because she sent me away and abandoned me, so it was like, you're telling me I'm the best, but then you threw me out like trash.
这也很令人困惑，因为她把我送走了并抛弃了我，所以就像，你告诉我我是最好的，但后来你把我像垃圾一样扔了出去。
So a lot of mixed messages, and the messaging that I heard growing up that I received was, "You're not enough.
所以有很多混杂的信息，我在成长过程中听到的信息是，“你还不够。
Women don't date Asians.
女人不和亚洲人约会。
Your art looks like shit.
你的艺术看起来很糟糕。
You're not following the graffiti rules.
你没有遵守涂鸦规则。
Your art's a little too aggressive to be refined." It's not like I can kind of be in this field.
你的艺术有点太激进了，无法精炼。”我不太可能从事这个领域。
I have to have the best podcast.
我必须拥有最好的播客。
And in my mind, that was Howard Stern.
在我看来，那就是霍华德·斯特恩。
So I was like, however extreme he is, I have to go, Howard's the ringleader, but I need to be the guy that's the...
所以我想，无论他有多极端，我都必须走，霍华德是头目，但我需要成为那个......
And I don't care what happens to me because I've had third-degree burns all over my foot.
我不在乎我会发生什么，因为我的脚全都是三度烧伤。
My brother's read my diary.
我哥哥读过我的日记。
I've been stabbed in my-- I don't care what you do to me because it'll never be what I can do to myself.
我的心被刺伤了——我不在乎你对我做什么，因为我永远无法对自己做什么。
I've hurt myself.
我伤害了自己。
So then I'm in Russia or the North Pole interviewing.
那么我就在俄罗斯或北极进行采访。
It's my first time doing the serious news.
这是我第一次做严肃的新闻。
And I remember at the time, Shane and Eddy and everyone at Vice, we sat down, and they're like, "Dave, your podcast is out of control." And they all know me.
我记得当时，Shane、Eddy 以及 Vice 的所有人，我们坐下来，他们说，“戴夫，你的播客失控了。”他们都认识我。
They're like, "You can't say those things." I go, "I can say whatever the fuck I want." I'm like, "This is Vice, baby.
他们就像是，“你不能说这些话。”我说：“我他妈想说什么就说什么。”我说，“这是 Vice，宝贝。
We did--" They're like, "Dave." And it was second season of Vice News on HBO.
我们做了——”他们就像，“戴夫。”这是 HBO 的 Vice News 第二季。
The first season was Dennis Rodman in North Korea, getting lot of attention.
第一个赛季是丹尼斯·罗德曼在朝鲜，引起了很多关注。
We start getting Emmy nominations.
我们开始获得艾美奖提名。
And the year that we did it, I won the Emmy for the news.
我们这样做的那一年，我赢得了新闻艾美奖。
My ego's like, "Oh, the first time doing the news.
我的自负就像，“哦，第一次做新闻。
Fucking nailed it." And they're like, "I'm God, dude.
他妈的搞定了。”他们就像，“我是上帝，伙计。
I can do serious news, and I could do weird butthole talk on this show, and I could do serious fucking delicate watercolors that could be in a museum, and I could do the most craziest..." You can't fucking put me in a box, and if you try to "Oh, eh," I'm like, "I am better than you.
我可以做严肃的新闻，我可以在这个节目中做奇怪的屁眼谈话，我可以做严肃的他妈的精致的水彩画，可以在博物馆里，我可以做最疯狂的……”你他妈的不能把我放在一个盒子里，如果你试图“哦，呃，”我会说，“我比你更好。
I'm better than you as a human being.
作为一个人，我比你更好。
I'm better than you as an art." And it was like my friends just like-- Because it's easier when you're an alcoholic or drug addict.
艺术方面我比你强。”就像我的朋友们一样——因为当你是一个酒鬼或吸毒者时，这会更容易。
You're like: "Bro, you're unhinged.
你会说：“兄弟，你疯了。
You're out of control." But it was just narcissism, hating myself, self-destructive behavior.
你已经失控了。”但这只是自恋、憎恨自己、自我毁灭的行为。
And the people would come with me.
人们会跟我一起去。
I'd bring them to...
我会把他们带到...
Because I controlled my addiction.
因为我控制了自己的瘾。
I knew that I had a problem, and I know the nature of addiction is you can't stop.
我知道我有问题，我也知道成瘾的本质是你无法停止。
So I did something that I've never heard another addict do, which is I would hire people, close friends, being like, "I'm an addict.
所以我做了一件我从未听过其他瘾君子做过的事情，那就是我会雇佣一些人，亲密的朋友，就像，“我是一个瘾君子。
I cannot be trusted.
我不值得信任。
I'm a liar.
我是个骗子。
I'm a thief.
我是一个小偷。
And so when I'm in my gambling state, I don't hold my money.
所以当我处于赌博状态时，我不会持有我的钱。
So as soon as I win the number I told you I'm going to win, I need you to punch me in the face.
所以一旦我赢得了我告诉过你我会赢的号码，我就需要你打我的脸。
I need you to drag me away from the table because now I'm going to say anything to keep going.
我需要你把我从桌子上拖走，因为现在我要说什么才能继续前进。
So I can never touch my own money.
所以我永远不能动我自己的钱。
If you see me falling in love with a girl and going into my love addiction, I need you to come and punch me in my face." And I gave permission for people to hurt me physically and to physically remove me.
如果你看到我爱上一个女孩，陷入爱情成瘾，我需要你过来打我的脸。”我允许人们对我进行身体伤害并将我带走。
If I was an alcoholic, it would be I'm at a bar, and after two drinks, if you see me take a third, boom, and drag me out of the bar.
如果我是个酒鬼，那就是我在酒吧，喝了两杯之后，如果你看到我喝了第三杯，然后把我拖出了酒吧。
So in that way, very sadomasochistic but successful.
所以这样一来，很虐心却很成功。
Because I had someone...
因为我有一个人...
And they would only get paid if they got me to stop.
只有让我停下来，他们才会得到报酬。
But then I would pay these people to stop me and then try to figure out ways to So at the height of my workaholism is the height of my addiction.
但后来我会付钱给这些人来阻止我，然后尝试找出方法来阻止我，所以在我工作狂的巅峰期就是我上瘾的巅峰期。
I don't sleep.
我不睡觉。
There's days...
有几天...
And then I had a heart attack when I was 35, an angina attack.
然后我在 35 岁时心脏病发作，心绞痛发作。
I collapsed.
我崩溃了。
I went blind.
我瞎了。
I collapsed, and of course, like a lot of stories, I didn't go to the hospital.
我崩溃了，当然，就像很多故事一样，我没有去医院。
As soon as I woke up, I was like, "What the fuck was that?" I woke up 30 hours later, another day, and I just went back to gambling.
当我醒来时，我就想：“那是什么鬼东西？” 30 小时后，又是一天，我醒来，又继续赌博。
But it was like, I could go into euphoric recall and just start telling, but I don't want to glamor-- Because it's like I figured out how to be in the world.
但这就像，我可以进入欣快的回忆并开始讲述，但我不想魅力——因为这就像我弄清楚了如何生活在这个世界上。
Speaker 5:
演讲者5：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
If I have sex with lots of women and win lots of money and work really hard at all these jobs, then I will be validated and congratulated and held up high in this culture, even though if I'm dying inside.
如果我与很多女人发生性关系，赢得很多钱，并且在所有这些工作中非常努力地工作，那么我将在这种文化中得到认可和祝贺，并被高举，即使我内心快要死了。
I've spent so much time in shame, I need to go, I want to see what it feels like to be a winner.
我在耻辱中度过了很多时间，我需要离开，我想看看成为胜利者是什么感觉。
But then when I got there, I go, "What do you do when you get to the heavy is the crown?
但当我到达那里时，我说：“当你到达王冠时你会做什么？
It's lonely at the--" I got to the top, and I was like, "Kind of boring.
那里很孤独——”我到达了山顶，我想，“有点无聊。
The kid in the village with the match, let's burn it down.
村里那个拿着火柴的孩子，我们把它烧掉吧。
We got here." And that was my childhood, literally.
我们到了这里。”从字面上看，那是我的童年。
I would spend a lot of time building giant Legos with all the loot.
我会花很多时间用所有的战利品建造巨型乐高积木。
We had all mismatched Legos that was hand-me-downs, and I would build a giant starship, and my brother would come and, "Cool.
我们都有不匹配的旧乐高积木，我会建造一艘巨大的星际飞船，我哥哥会过来说，“酷。
" And just smash it again.
“然后再把它砸碎。
I was like, "I worked so long on that." But that was me doing, my brother is somewhere around about to destroy my career.
我当时想，“我为此工作了很长时间。”但这是我做的，我的兄弟即将毁掉我的职业生涯。
Let me just do it myself.
让我自己做吧。
Let me self-sabotage myself.
让我自我破坏一下吧。
Self-sabotage.
自我破坏。
It was like mini suicides.
这就像小型自杀。
And so it's all, I'm like, "Here I am." I'm finally going to be validated as a human being.
就这样，我想，“我在这里。”我终于要被确认为一个人了。
And then I get Vice telling me, "Hey, you can't do your podcast and the news." And I go, "Then go fuck yourself." And then we win the Emmy, but I'm not part of that anymore.
然后 Vice 告诉我，“嘿，你不能做你的播客和新闻。”我说：“那就去操你自己吧。”然后我们赢得了艾美奖，但我不再参与其中了。
And then I can't keep track because I keep, they're like, "Did you know this artist got caught on saying..." I go, "It's on my podcast.
然后我就无法跟踪，因为我一直在说，“你知道吗，这位艺术家因说……而被抓住”，我说，“这是在我的播客上。
It was my podcast.
这是我的播客。
You don't fucking...
你他妈的不...
It's not like I...
这不像我...
I did it on purpose." Anyways, it just kept happening and I'm at the sickest I've been mentally, and I'm trying to make sense of my situation while the world also has its own issues.
我是故意的。”不管怎样，这种事一直在发生，我的精神处于最糟糕的状态，我试图弄清楚我的处境，而世界也有自己的问题。
And I hit my bottom.
我触底了。
I just went so off the deep end.
我刚刚陷入了困境。
And my friends were all like, "You're going to die.
我的朋友们都说：“你会死的。
It's not like a normal OD with drugs, but you literally had a heart attack from not sleeping and gambling for a week straight." Masturbating nonstop to pornography.
这不像正常的吸毒成瘾者，但你确实因为连续一周不睡觉和赌博而心脏病发作。”不停地对色情内容自慰。
Just video games.
只是电子游戏。
I couldn't stop playing Angry Birds.
我无法停止玩《愤怒的小鸟》。
Everything's so I can make a joke out of it.
一切都是为了让我可以开个玩笑。
And they're like, "That's your safety thing is to make a joke out of it?" And so I walk in to a meeting and Channing Tatum's dude is like, "Channing ain't fucking working with you." And it wasn't him, it was like, "Hey, I've spent all..." It was the agency.
他们会说，“你的安全就是开个玩笑吗？”所以我走进一个会议，查宁·塔图姆的家伙就像，“查宁他妈的不和你一起工作。”不是他，就像是，“嘿，我已经花光了所有……”这是该机构。
It was like, "We've spent all this time building up a heartthrob teen idol thing.
就像是，“我们花了这么多时间来打造一个万人迷的青少年偶像。
He's not going to be fucking seen with a scumbag like you." I go, "Oh, shit.
他不会被人看到和你这样的渣男在一起的。”我说：“噢，该死。
It's happening again.
它又发生了。
Shame." I walk into Zero Point Zero.
耻辱。”我走进零点零。
Bourdain's like, "When I'm done, it's you.
布尔登说：“当我完成后，就是你了。
Here's a book deal with my publishing company.
这是与我的出版公司签订的图书协议。
Your show's going to be on CNN.
你的节目将在 CNN 上播出。
It's going to be exactly like mine, but with art.
它将和我的一模一样，但带有艺术。
You're going to travel around the art, and it's authentic to you because you already do that." I'm just like, "Holy shit, dude.
你将环游艺术，这对你来说是真实的，因为你已经这样做了。”我只是想，“天哪，伙计。
It paid off." All the bad behav-- I met my kindred spirit, and I knew he wasn't happy.
它得到了回报。”所有的不良行为——我遇到了志同道合的人，我知道他不高兴。
That's one of my...
那是我的一...
I can't watch.
我看不下去了
It's been years since all that happened, and I still, I can't.
这一切发生已经很多年了，但我仍然做不到。
I felt like I met someone who finally understood me.
我感觉我终于遇到了一个懂我的人。
So I know it wasn't him, but I don't remember the guy's name.
所以我知道不是他，但我不记得他的名字。
I remember them, and they could've told me over the phone.
我记得他们，他们可以通过电话告诉我。
They're like, "Dave..." It was like getting caught at the principal's office.
他们就像，“戴夫……”就像在校长办公室被抓住一样。
It was like...
就像...
And I'm pumped.
我很兴奋。
I'm like, "My mom was right.
我说：“我妈妈是对的。
Jane Joe was right." The most interesting man on the planet, my friend Tony, is handing me the baton, and I'm going to do him pr- I'm going to go for it.
简·乔是对的。”这个星球上最有趣的人，我的朋友托尼，正在把接力棒交给我，我会做他的——我会去争取它。
I wasn't married.
我没有结婚。
I didn't have kids.
我没有孩子。
I'm like, "I'm going to fucking really, really..." I took it so seriously.
我想，“我真的要他妈的……”我非常认真地对待它。
Went to Nat Geo, took all the meetings, and I remember sitting at a table just like this, and the whole Zero Point Zero production team is like, "We love Tony." He goes, "But we are not working with you." And I go, "You couldn't fucking send an email?
去了国家地理，参加了所有会议，我记得就像这样坐在一张桌子旁，整个零点零制作团队就像是，“我们爱托尼。”他说：“但我们不与你合作。”我说：“你他妈的就不能发邮件吗？
What are you shaming?" And all of this is fuel for me.
你羞什么？”所有这些都是我的燃料。
They don't know this.
他们不知道这一点。
I'm like, "The more you fucking do this to me, the more you're giving me my drug," which I'm chasing, which is anger and shame.
我想，“你他妈的对我做的越多，你给我的毒品就越多，”我所追求的是愤怒和羞耻。
It's a fucking powerful drug, right?
这真是一种强效药物，对吧？
And I go, "Oh, okay.
我说：“哦，好吧。
Just another on the list that I got to prove wrong.
这只是清单上的另一个我必须证明是错误的。
I will make you regret the same way Chip regrets fucking talking sh-- I will make you feel, you come at me, you better fucking kill me because I'm going to fucking destroy you now.
我会让你后悔，就像奇普后悔他妈的说话一样——我会让你觉得，你来找我，你最好他妈的杀了我，因为我现在他妈的就要毁了你。
I am going to make the most awesome show ever." And Tony called me and apologized.
我将制作有史以来最精彩的节目。”托尼打电话给我并向我道歉。
He's like, "Dude, I don't...
他就像是：“伙计，我不...
They're their own company.
他们是自己的公司。
We work together, but the optics aren't good." And I go, "All right." And I was like, "Missed it by that much." And I had grown accustomed to it.
我们一起工作，但效果并不好。”我说：“好吧。”我当时想，“太想念了。”我已经习惯了。
This is not a new...
这不是一个新...
If I could just keep telling another, "Oh, and then Marvel rejected me, then DC." The episode I did with Tony, I take him to Sizzler.
如果我能继续告诉另一个人，“哦，然后漫威拒绝了我，然后是 DC。”我和托尼一起拍的那一集，我带他去了西兹勒。
I show him how I fucking did a fusion with a meatball and a taco.
我向他展示了我是如何将肉丸和炸玉米饼融合在一起的。
It was true to me.
这对我来说是真的。
I hammed it up a little bit for the camera.
我为了相机把它稍微加强了一点。
I wore my shiny red Sizzler suit, but that was me.
我穿着闪亮的红色 Sizzler 套装，但这就是我。
That was how my family...
我的家人就是这样...
And it resonated.
它引起了共鸣。
It was the most watched episode.
这是观看次数最多的一集。
I introduced him to Estevan Oriol and Mr. Cartoon.
我向他介绍了埃斯特万·奥里奥尔和卡通先生。
He loved all the lowrider cars.
他喜欢所有的低底盘汽车。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Love those guys.
爱那些家伙。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
It was a fucking LA episode, and it was my friends, and it was awesome.
这是他妈的洛杉矶一集，是我的朋友们，非常棒。
I felt so good, and I just started getting-- Sizzler asked me to be their spokesperson, and the episode is me talking shit about how horrible their food is, but it has this much- "I'll do it, guys.
我感觉很好，我刚刚开始 - Sizzler 让我成为他们的代言人，这一集是我在谈论他们的食物有多糟糕，但它有这么多 - “我会做的，伙计们。
I'll do it." And so they're like, "It's the most watched episode of that," and then we won an Emmy for that season.
我会做的。”所以他们就像，“这是该剧中收视率最高的一集”，然后我们赢得了该季的艾美奖。
And then that happens, and I'm like, "Holy sh-" And then you go on Netflix or whatever it was on, and that episode's just missing.
然后这种情况发生了，我想，“天啊——”然后你继续看 Netflix 或其他任何节目，那一集就不见了。
It's back now, but they took it off, and I was like , "Just keep striking." And I'm like, "What did I do?" Like me playing Vic.
现在它又回来了，但他们把它脱掉了，我当时想，“继续罢工吧。”我想，“我做了什么？”就像我扮演维克一样。
Like, "What did I do?
就像，“我做了什么？
Did I do that?" Like I'm Urkel, I'm like...
我有那么做吗？”就像我是乌克尔一样，我就像...
You're a fucking idiot, dude.
你真是个白痴，伙计。
You do dumb shit that you shouldn't do.
你做了不该做的蠢事。
You should shut the fuck up and just...
你他妈的应该闭嘴然后...
When I meet the most powerful, intellectually, these powerhouse humans, once again, it doesn't always have to be sexual abuse, but it usually is with men.
当我再次遇到最强大的、智力上的强大人类时，并不总是发生性虐待，但通常是针对男性。
Women, I don't know that experience because I'm not a woman, but for a man to take your humanity like that, then I see, because it's PTSD.
女人，我不知道那种经历，因为我不是女人，但对于一个男人来说，这样对待你的人性，然后我明白了，因为这是创伤后应激障碍。
It's right, post-traumatic stress disorder, but then every now and then, I don't know what the exact stats are, you get PT, I'm making this up, PTGD, post-traumatic growth disorder.
是的，创伤后应激障碍，但时不时地，我不知道确切的统计数据是什么，你得到 PT，我编造的，PTGD，创伤后生长障碍。
It's like that should've turned me into a drug addict, homeless person, but instead, I took all that pain and I was like, "K.
就好像那样我应该变成一个吸毒者、无家可归的人，但相反，我承受了所有的痛苦，我就像，“K.
Rage, I'll show you.
愤怒，我会告诉你。
I'll fucking show you.
我他妈的会告诉你。
You should've never done that to me.
你不应该这样对我。
You should've never minimized me and put me down and disregarded me.
你不应该贬低我、贬低我、忽视我。
And now I have to teach you a lesson, and I have to show you who you're fucking with." And it's such a horrible...
现在我必须给你一个教训，我必须让你看看你在和谁他妈。”这真是太可怕了……
It's such a painful way to live life, and I can't live with that pain, so I have to just keep doing more.
这是一种非常痛苦的生活方式，我无法忍受这种痛苦，所以我必须继续做更多的事情。
It's never enough.
这永远不够。
I have to just keep showing you that I'm enough.
我必须不断地向你证明我已经足够了。
So then I'm living in a very-- I know I'm telling a very name-droppy, douchey LA story, but I have Anthony Bourdain, who I consider a friend and my hero and my idol.
所以我生活在一个非常——我知道我正在讲述一个非常虚伪、愚蠢的洛杉矶故事，但我有安东尼·布尔登，我认为他是我的朋友、我的英雄和我的偶像。
I was in a gang called Koreans Gone Bad.
我加入了一个名为“韩国人变坏”的帮派。
That was two people, me and my friend Harry Kim, but we wrote it everywhere, KGB everywhere.
那是两个人，我和我的朋友哈利·金，但我们到处写它，克格勃到处写。
And then I remember the episode came out, and he wrote, "KGB forever," or something like that.
然后我记得这一集出来了，他写道，“克格勃永远”，或者类似的东西。
Koreans Gone-- I was like, "Fucking my gang is Harry Kim and Anthony Bourdain?" It made me so happy that it's like Tony Bourdain is repping my set.
韩国人走了——我当时想，“他妈的我的帮派是哈利·金和安东尼·波登？”这让我非常高兴，就像托尼·布尔登正在重复我的表演一样。
Like I'm a fucking gang.
就好像我是一个该死的帮派。
It was two fucking dumbasses just writing, drawing dumb bucktooth whales and...
那是两个他妈的傻瓜，只是在写东西，画愚蠢的龅牙鲸，然后……
I miss that guy so much.
我非常想念那个人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The people that were close to him, like you and Joe-
那些与他关系密切的人，比如你和乔——
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's the same response always.
总是有同样的反应。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
So then I'm lost.
那么我就迷路了。
I'm getting closer and closer to hitting my version of a bottom, and I get a call from David Arquette, the actor.
我越来越接近触底，这时我接到了演员大卫·阿奎特的电话。
And I love all the Arquettes.
我喜欢所有的阿奎特。
But David, this is LA shit, he just reaches out and he's like, "Hey, I am watching TV right now with my," I think fiancée at the time, "and we just saw your Anthony Bourdain." And he's like, "That's the most fucking LA shit." He's like, "I was in a crew called KGB, Kids Gone Bad." And I was like, "No, Koreans Gone Bad." And he goes, "It's crazy.
但是大卫，这就是洛杉矶的狗屎，他只是伸出手来说，“嘿，我现在正在和我的未婚妻一起看电视，”我想是当时的未婚妻，“我们刚刚看到了你的安东尼·波登。”他说，“这真是洛杉矶最糟糕的事情了。”他说，“我曾在一个叫克格勃的小组里工作，孩子们变坏了。”我当时想，“不，韩国人变坏了。”他说：“这太疯狂了。
I used to do graffiti and tag.
我曾经做过涂鸦和标签。
I used to write KGB, and I grew up eating at Sizzler with my family." And he goes, "And I'm turning..." I forgot.
我曾经写过克格勃，我是和家人一起在 Sizzler 吃饭长大的。”然后他说，“我正在转向……”我忘了。
He was like, "I'm turning 45 or 50." I forgot how old he was, but it was a big one, like 40.
他说：“我快 45 岁或 50 岁了。”我忘了他几岁了，但年纪很大了，大概有40岁了。
"And I'm having it at the..." Sizzler's almost out of business.
“我要在……” Sizzler 几乎破产了。
I think there's like three left in LA.
我想洛杉矶还剩下三个。
And he's like, "And it's at the Sizzler that I grew up, and I would love for you to be here." And all that stuff, all weird celebrity stuff always makes me nervous because I'm like, I don't know if they're going to be fake or...
他说，“我是在 Sizzler 长大的，我很高兴你能来这里。”所有这些东西，所有奇怪的名人的东西总是让我紧张，因为我想，我不知道它们是假的还是......
And I'm a sensitive person.
而且我是一个敏感的人。
If I'm meeting new people and they don't like me, I'm like, "Oh, I'm a piece of..." I'm sensitive.
如果我结识了新朋友，而他们不喜欢我，我会说，“哦，我是一个……”我很敏感。
I'm a sensitive artist.
我是一个敏感的艺术家。
So, I go to Sizzler with my friend Critter.
所以，我和我的朋友 Critter 一起去了 Sizzler。
I was like, "Hey, can you come with me?" And we get to Sizzler, and it's packed, and there's the buffet bar with the cheese toast and He's like: "Dave, I want you to meet some friends here.
我当时想，“嘿，你能跟我一起去吗？”我们到了 Sizzler，那里挤满了人，自助吧里有奶酪吐司，他说：“戴夫，我想让你在这里认识一些朋友。
Come sit at this table." And I sit down and it's Sacha Baron Cohen, my fucking hero, and Pee-wee Herman.
来坐在这张桌子旁吧。”我坐下来，这是萨莎·拜伦·科恩（Sacha Baron Cohen），我他妈的英雄，还有皮威·赫尔曼（Pee-wee Herman）。
And I'm like, "Holy fuck, dude." And both of them are just huge art fans, so they don't know my art, but David Arquette talking, he's like: "This guy's an awesome artist." And they're like: "Oh, cool.
我就想，“天哪，伙计。”他们俩都是巨大的艺术迷，所以他们不了解我的艺术，但大卫·阿奎特说，他就像：“这家伙是一位很棒的艺术家。”他们就像：“哦，酷。
We want to check it out." And so Sacha Baron Cohen collects a lot of Banksy and this and he's like: "Fuck, dude.
我们想看看。”所以萨莎·拜伦·科恩收集了很多班克斯和这个，他说：“操，伙计。
I got to come to your studio." So then I'm like, "Oh, cool." Once again, this, oh, people like me, and if people like me, then maybe I like myself.
我必须来你的工作室。”然后我就想，“哦，酷。”再一次，这，哦，人们喜欢我，如果人们喜欢我，那么也许我喜欢我自己。
And it's nice to be liked.
被人喜欢真是太好了。
It feels good to be validated and liked by people that you look up to, right?
被你尊敬的人认可和喜欢的感觉很好，对吗？
So especially Pee-wee Herman's my art god.
尤其是皮威·赫尔曼（Pee-wee Herman）是我的艺术之神。
Like I said, Bob Ross, Mr. Rogers, dope.
就像我说的，鲍勃·罗斯，罗杰斯先生，太棒了。
But for me, that's what I grew up on.
但对我来说，这就是我成长的基础。
The full commitment to that character, the voice, the King of Cartoon, Penny, the stop motion animation.
对角色、声音、卡通之王、佩妮、定格动画的全力投入。
It spoke to me.
它对我说话。
All the Gary Panter art.
所有加里·潘特的艺术作品。
So, I go, "Fuck, I don't know when am I going to meet this guy again?" I go, "Hey, I don't know, 20 years ago, 15 years ago, you did a movie called 'Blow.'" And he's like, "Oh yeah, 'Blow.'" I go, "Hey, did you ever remember getting a porn package on your step?" And I'm trying to read his eyes.
所以，我说，“操，我不知道我什么时候才能再次见到这个家伙？”我说，“嘿，我不知道，20 年前，15 年前，你拍了一部叫‘Blow’的电影。”他说，“哦，是的，‘Blow’。”我说，“嘿，你记得在你的台阶上收到过色情包裹吗？”我正在尝试读懂他的眼神。
He's like, "No, I don't remember that." And I was like, "Ah, I guess," you know?
他说：“不，我不记得了。”我当时想，“啊，我想，”你知道吗？
But I did get his number that night, and then, I wouldn't be here today without my friends, just all who love me, came, and they're like, "Dave, it went too far this way.
但那天晚上我确实得到了他的电话号码，然后，如果没有我的朋友们，我今天就不会在这里，只有所有爱我的人都来了，他们就像，“戴夫，这样太过分了。
You used to be this sweet, nice, humble guy, and you just need a lot of help." So I, like everything else, obviously, it was the hardest thing I ever did in my life, but including plant medicine, therapy, rehabs, men's groups, 12-step meetings.
你曾经是一个可爱、友善、谦虚的人，你只需要很多帮助。”所以我和其他一切一样，显然，这是我一生中做过的最困难的事情，但包括植物医学、治疗、康复、男子团体、12步会议。
Whatever, if someone said it was going to help you, I'm like, you're just breaking generations of, "Oh, fucking Asians hit their kids.
不管怎样，如果有人说这会对你有帮助，我会说，你只是打破了几代人的观念，“哦，该死的亚洲人打他们的孩子。
Everyone got sent away." I know, but I want it to stop.
每个人都被送走了。”我知道，但我希望它停止。
It's either I fucking kill myself or I need it to stop.
要么我他妈的自杀，要么我需要它停止。
And enough people caring about me made me care about myself enough, and I did.
足够多的人关心我让我足够关心自己，我做到了。
"What?
“什么？
The podcast, the band." Like, the people, and they go, "They'll be fine.
播客，乐队。”就像人们一样，他们说，“他们会没事的。
Everyone's going to figure it out." And I got help, and as soon as I was out of the first rehab, like 45 days, I was like, "I'm going to do a podcast about this." And Matt out there, he's just like: "Hey, why don't you live this life before you start telling?" It's like, "But I've learned so many." They go, "Yeah, but why don't you implement it in your life?" And so I'm 49 now.
每个人都会弄清楚的。”我得到了帮助，当我结束第一次康复治疗后，大约 45 天，我就想，“我要做一个关于这个的播客。”马特在那里，他就像：“嘿，你为什么不在开始讲述之前过这样的生活？”就像，“但我学到了很多。”他们说，“是的，但你为什么不在你的生活中实现它呢？”生活？”所以我现在 49 岁了。
I rarely do podcasts.
我很少做播客。
I still do something creative every single day.
我仍然每天都做一些有创意的事情。
I like to do it with other people.
我喜欢和其他人一起做。
I'd like to thank the sponsor today for this, God.
我要为此感谢今天的赞助商，上帝。
I know people are like, "Oh, you're religious." I go, "I don't believe in God, but I still pray to him." And God, whatever you want to call it, whatever that is, whatever that thing that controls telepathy and Santa and connection and all this, he doesn't care if I believe in him.
我知道人们会说，“哦，你有宗教信仰。”我说：“我不相信上帝，但我仍然向他祈祷。”上帝，无论你想怎么称呼它，无论它是什么，无论控制心灵感应、圣诞老人、联系以及所有这一切的东西，他不在乎我是否相信他。
He's still there.
他还在那里。
Right?
对吗？
It's such an ego thing.
这是一种自我的事情。
Who cares what you-- The thing.
谁在乎你什么——事情。
It's like saying you don't believe in the ocean.
这就像说你不相信海洋一样。
The ocean is still there.
海洋还在那里。
So I want to thank that guy, and so as I live this life, and then I start to be like, "What is my purpose?
所以我要感谢那个人，所以当我过着这一生，然后我开始想，“我的目的是什么？
Why am I here?" Before, your art was about disgustingness and offending people, and it was just a fuck you, just showing people, "Hey, Asian people aren't all quiet." Like, "You're a rebel." Like, "You're supposed to shut the fuck up and become a lawyer or a doctor." And then just, I always tell people, they go, "Oh, how do I make it?
我为什么在这里？”以前，你的艺术是关于恶心和冒犯别人的，这只是操你，只是向人们展示，“嘿，亚洲人并不都是安静的。”比如，“你是一个叛逆者。”比如，“你应该闭嘴，成为一名律师或医生。”然后，我总是告诉人们，他们会说，“哦，我该怎么做？
I want to be..." I go, "I'm an expert in disappointing my parents." You must disappoint your parents.
我想成为……”我说，“我是让父母失望的专家。”你必须让你的父母失望。
My dad is so disappointed in me over and over again until he's not.
我爸爸一遍又一遍地对我感到失望，直到他不再失望为止。
But I'm like, what would've happened if I didn't disappoint him?
但我想，如果我没有让他失望的话，会发生什么？
I would've got a pretty high SAT.
我的 SAT 成绩会相当高。
I would've probably been on my second marriage, lawyer, golf.
我的第二次婚姻可能是律师、高尔夫。
And he would be like, "Ah, I don't know." But I know that he's proud of me now, and it was a long, hard path to get there.
他会说，“啊，我不知道。”但我知道他现在为我感到骄傲，这是一条漫长而艰难的道路。
And part of me, if you can't tell by now, it goes like this.
而我的一部分，如果你现在还不能说出来，那就是这样的。
The pendulum swings very hard.
钟摆摆动得很厉害。
So I said to myself, everything up until now has been about, "Look at me, let me show you." And I go, "I got to take some space for me now," and I work with all these youth groups and stuff, and people go, "Hey, you did a lot of media, and you did a lot of shit where you put yourself out there, showing the worst part of yourself, and trying to prove to people that you're not a good person." It's like it would touch people and help people to see your journey and your path.
所以我对自己说，到目前为止的一切都是为了“看着我，让我告诉你。”我说，“我现在必须为自己腾出一些空间”，我与所有这些青年团体和其他人一起工作，人们会说，“嘿，你做了很多媒体工作，你做了很多狗屎，你把自己放在那里，展示自己最糟糕的部分，并试图向人们证明你不是一个好人。”就像它会触动人们并帮助人们看到你的旅程和道路。
And I go, "Fuck that.
我说：“去他妈的。
I'm not going to put myself through that.
我不会让自己经历这些。
I'm taking space." And they're like, "Yeah, but at some point, are you going to share your story?" And I go, "No, that's too literal." I hate words.
我占用空间。”他们会说，“是的，但在某个时候，你会分享你的故事吗？”我说，“不，这太字面意思了。”我讨厌文字。
Words can be confused.
言语可能会混淆。
Words can be misconstrued.
言语可能会被误解。
I'm not doing that.
我不会那样做。
I'm just doing this, and this is enough.
我只是这样做，这就足够了。
Your ego goes, "Oh, I'm working with 12 kids today, but if it was filmed, it could reach millions of people." And it's like, no, you're working with 12 kids today, and that's it.
你的自我意识会说：“哦，我今天正在和 12 个孩子一起工作，但如果将其拍摄下来，可能会影响数百万人。”就好像，不，你今天要和 12 个孩子一起工作，仅此而已。
And that's enough.
这就足够了。
Right?
对吗？
But then at some point, this is years, a decade of recovery, I thought, well, part of the reason why I hate working with Netflix, Hulu, HBO, it doesn't matter.
但在某个时候，这是几年、十年的恢复，我想，好吧，这也是我讨厌与 Netflix、Hulu、HBO 合作的部分原因，但这并不重要。
They're all corporations.
他们都是公司。
They could be cool or whatever.
他们可能很酷或者其他什么。
And even podcasts, which that's the conversation we had.
甚至还有播客，这就是我们的对话。
I'm like, "It all gets edited." It's like as soon as anything gets a little...
我想，“一切都被编辑了。”就好像一旦任何事情变得有点...
And so I go, "I'll just make my own show because I have money to do that, and it's not going to cost that much.
所以我说：“我会制作自己的节目，因为我有钱来做这件事，而且不会花那么多钱。
And then if someone wants to buy it, they will or they won't." So I started making my version of Pee-wee's Playhouse, which was The Chill Show, and it came out on FX, on Hulu, and I got to learn what taking notes and having corporate feedback and whatever.
然后如果有人想买，他们要么会买，要么不会。”所以我开始制作我版本的《Pee-wee's Playhouse》，即《The Chill Show》，它在 FX、Hulu 上播出，我必须学会什么是做笔记、如何获得公司反馈等等。
I'm grateful that it happened, but they killed a lot of the episodes and then everyone's like, "Who's your dream guest?" And I was like, "It doesn't matter.
我很庆幸这件事发生了，但他们杀掉了很多剧集，然后每个人都会问，“谁是你的梦想嘉宾？”我当时想，“没关系。
I'll talk to anybody.
我会和任何人交谈。
I'll talk to the garbage man." But they're like: "It's for TV, so you should try to get some celebrities or well-known people." And I was like, "I want Pee-wee Herman." And I had his number still from Sizzler, so I called him.
我会和垃圾工谈谈。”但他们会说：“这是为了电视，所以你应该尝试联系一些名人或知名人士。”我说，“我想要皮威·赫尔曼。”我仍然从 Sizzler 那里得到了他的电话号码，所以我给他打了电话。
And Pee-wee Herman's like ...
皮威·赫尔曼就像……
He's just one of those people that once he gets your contact info, you get a birthday message from him every year or a Christmas card.
他只是其中之一，一旦他获得了您的联系信息，您每年都会收到他的生日祝福或圣诞贺卡。
And I was like, every time I got it, I would show all my friends.
我想，每次我得到它，我都会向我所有的朋友展示。
It just made me feel so good.
这让我感觉很好。
So yeah, I have those emails that Sean Parker said about what he wanted from my art to disrupt the world.
所以，是的，我收到了肖恩·帕克（Sean Parker）所说的那些电子邮件，内容是他希望从我的艺术中得到什么来扰乱世界。
I have the nice message from Howard Stern, and I have the voice.
我收到了霍华德·斯特恩的好消息，我也发出了声音。
So I called Pee-wee, and he's like, "Dave, I got some health stuff going on." And he's like, "I feel honored.
所以我打电话给皮威，他说，“戴夫，我有一些健康方面的事情要做。”他说：“我感到很荣幸。
Thank you.
谢谢。
I love your art." Now he got to learn a little bit about me, and he's like, "And I would love to be on your show, but I don't know.
我喜欢你的艺术。”现在他对我有了一些了解，他说，“我很想参加你的节目，但我不知道。
I don't want to be on camera anymore." And he's like, "You could send the episodes, and I'll give you some, if you're open to it." I was like, "Of course." I couldn't believe that I was talking to him, and he was talking back to me as an equal.
我不想再出现在镜头前了。”他说，“你可以把剧集发给我，如果你愿意的话，我会给你一些。”我说，“当然。”我不敢相信我在和他说话，而他却以平等的身份跟我说话。
But I got it right away he's not going to do it.
但我立刻就明白他不会这么做。
And then at the end, right before I hung up, he goes, "You paint butts really good." Oh, man.
最后，就在我挂断电话之前，他说：“你把屁股画得真好。”哦，伙计。
He got it.
他明白了。
He got it.
他明白了。
And I he's like, "I'm old.
我他就像，“我老了。
I don't want to talk on the microphone." Ah.
我不想用麦克风讲话。”啊。
So I don't know if that answered your question about the South Bay.
所以我不知道这是否回答了你关于南湾的问题。
I know that was a long answer for the one question you asked me, but I don't know.
我知道对于你问我的一个问题来说，这是一个很长的答案，但我不知道。
I feel like you're an open person, so if you ask me something and you're ready to go into my head space and we can go there together, then I feel cared for, listened to.
我觉得你是一个开放的人，所以如果你问我一些事情，并且你准备好进入我的头脑空间，我们可以一起去那里，那么我会感到被关心，被倾听。
Because you listen and they're not present.
因为你在听，而他们不在场。
They're looking at their phone.
他们正在看手机。
They're like, "Okay, this show is two hours." And that's also how I write.
他们会说，“好吧，这个节目有两个小时。”我也是这样写作的。
Very long run-on sentences, no punctuation.
句子很长，没有标点符号。
Creativity is such a hard thing to have a conversation about because my path is not someone else's path.
创造力是一件很难谈论的事情，因为我的道路不是别人的道路。
And today, it's just every day I wake up with what I didn't have before, which is gratitude.
而今天，我每天醒来都带着以前没有的东西，那就是感恩。
I just wake up and it's like I had a horrible day today.
我刚醒来，感觉今天过得很糟糕。
It was not good.
这不太好。
The fucking flat tire, appointment canceled, moved back, fucking crazy family shit happening with my dad, and I was just like, I wasn't going to cancel, but the feeling was like this is not the right head space to go.
他妈的轮胎漏气了，约会被取消了，搬回来了，他妈的家庭乱七八糟的事情发生在我爸爸身上，我当时想，我不打算取消，但感觉这不是合适的空间。
And then I said, "You know what?" I could sit there and self-analyze, oh, you have depression, you have this, and it's like almost some weird OCD, and you're a horrible person, and you have antisocial traits.
然后我说：“你知道吗？”我可以坐在那里自我分析，哦，你有抑郁症，你有这个，这几乎就像某种奇怪的强迫症，你是一个可怕的人，你有反社会特征。
And then go, "Okay, and then what are you going to do about it?" And so I sit back now, and if I examine my life like a scientist, I go, "Hey, what was all that shit about?
然后说：“好吧，那么你打算怎么做呢？”所以我现在坐下来，如果我像科学家一样审视我的生活，我会说：“嘿，这到底是怎么回事？
Why did you say that stuff on your podcast?
你为什么在你的播客上说这些话？
Why did you do that thing that's against your value system?
你为什么要做那些违背你的价值观的事情？
What was about the fucking suicidal ideation, all the times you tried to kill-- What was that about?" And not just, like I said, logically, if I sound hypocritical, not just trying to analyze it, but just an examination of my own heart.
那他妈的自杀念头是怎么回事，你每次都试图杀人——那是怎么回事？”不仅仅是，就像我说的，从逻辑上讲，如果我听起来很虚伪，不仅仅是试图分析它，而是对我自己的内心进行审视。
Doing an X-ray of my heart.
给我的心脏做X光检查。
It's like, what were you feeling then and what is the shame hitting and why did you do that?
就像，你当时的感受是什么？羞耻感是什么？你为什么这么做？
And so I sit there and I go, I'll use I statements.
所以我坐在那里然后走，我将使用 I 语句。
The way the culture I was grown was when someone asks you how you're doing, it's just good, okay, which aren't emotions.
我成长的文化是，当有人问你过得怎么样时，这只是很好，好吧，这不是情绪。
That's all you say.
这就是你所说的一切。
You don't go, "Oh, let me tell you, I'm feeling shame today." I was raised in a culture of everything's fine, everything's okay.
你不会说：“哦，让我告诉你，我今天感到羞耻。”我是在一切都好、一切都好的文化中长大的。
Get along to go along.
相处就一起走。
I was the only Asian family in a white neighborhood or Black neighborhoods, so it's like don't- It's a lot of immigrant story.
我是白人社区或黑人社区中唯一的亚洲家庭，所以这就像不-这是很多移民故事。
Like, "Don't rock the boat.
就像，“别惹事生非。
Don't do anything to stand out.
不要做任何事情来脱颖而出。
We're guests in this country.
我们是这个国家的客人。
We're lucky to be here.
我们很幸运能来到这里。
Don't do basically everything I did." "Clear up the campground, leave it nice." And so I sit here, and if I'm being introspective, this is why I say this would be intimate, because this is just private stuff that I'm trying to just know my own heart.
基本上不要做我所做的一切。”“清理露营地，让它漂亮。”所以我坐在这里，如果我是内省的话，这就是为什么我说这将是亲密的，因为这只是私人的事情，我只是想了解自己的内心。
So it's like, what?
所以就像是，什么？
Why?
为什么？
What is the insane opening Pokémon packs about?
神奇宝贝开包的疯狂内容是什么？
You could turn that into a joke.
你可以把它变成一个笑话。
Or what is the unmet need?
或者说还有哪些未被满足的需求？
What is your depression telling you right now?
你的抑郁症现在正在告诉你什么？
What is your anger telling you?
你的愤怒在告诉你什么？
If your anger is unmatched with like, oh, there was a little flare-up at school.
如果你的愤怒无与伦比，哦，学校里发生了一点小冲突。
Some kid said something to your kid, and then your response is like, "Rah!" What's that about?
有些孩子对你的孩子说了些什么，然后你的反应就像是，“啊！”那是关于什么的？
So instead of shaming myself and going, "I'm a piece of shit.
所以与其羞辱自己然后说：“我就是一坨屎。
Oh, I did all this work and I'm still this much." And I think if I can get quiet and right-sized in that moment instead of, oh, I need to make a story in my head and just sit in that ugliness and uncomfortable.
哦，我做了所有这些工作，但我仍然如此。”我想，如果我能在那一刻保持安静并保持适当的尺寸，而不是，哦，我需要在脑海中编一个故事，然后坐在那种丑陋和不舒服的状态中。
If I can do that, I couldn't do that before.
如果我能做到的话，我以前是做不到的。
You have to either look at me like I'm nothing or I'm the greatest.
你必须要么用我微不足道的眼光来看待我，要么用我最伟大的眼光来看待我。
I can't just, "Oh, Dave's kind of boring today," or, "He's kind of not making sense," or he feels...
我不能只是说，“哦，戴夫今天有点无聊”，或者“他有点没有道理”，或者他觉得……
It had to be all or nothing.
要么全有，要么全无。
It was very black and white, very Christian, the way I was raised, OCD, like God's way or Satan's way.
我的成长方式非常黑白分明，非常基督教化，强迫症，就像上帝的方式或撒旦的方式。
And so now I just go, "That's Palo Alto." If I could find the Palo Alto in my heart, just like the mundane, culturally...
所以现在我就说，“那是帕洛阿尔托。”如果我能找到我心中的帕洛阿尔托，就像世俗的、文化的……
If I could sit in the boring, mundane space and I dare to be mediocre, dare to be moderate, and just like I said, the feeling is like, oh, what's the sensations?
如果我能坐在这个无聊、平凡的空间里，敢于平庸，敢于中庸，就像我说的那样，那种感觉就是，哦，什么感觉？
Then that's where the brilliance is.
那么，这就是高明之处。
Then I could find my inner spark.
然后我就能找到我内心的火花。
And then in that is when I feel the closest to you and other.
那时我感觉与你和其他人最亲近。
If I'm with another person who's close, this is just like banging my head against the wall.
如果我和另一个亲密的人在一起，这就像用头撞墙一样。
But if I can meet another spirit or soul and I don't have to agree with you.
但如果我能遇到另一个灵魂或灵魂，我就不必同意你的观点。
I've been talking my ass off, I understand that.
我一直在胡言乱语，我明白这一点。
We could go all night.
我们可以走一整晚。
And if you share with me your heart, then it's a shared brokenness.
如果你与我分享你的心，那就是共同的破碎。
Andrew Huberman doesn't get to this with a smooth...
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）并没有顺利地做到这一点......
Shit went down.
屎掉下来了。
I don't know, but it's on your face, and it's a vibrational thing.
我不知道，但它就在你的脸上，而且是一种振动。
You don't fucking tattoo your whole body if everything was cool.
如果一切都很酷的话你就不会纹身全身。
You don't just become as smart as you are without-- If you want to destroy me intellectually, you can.
你不会变得和原来一样聪明——如果你想在智力上摧毁我，你可以。
I would be like, Right?
我会想，对吧？
So if I can sit and be vulnerable and say, "Hey, I'm not perfect, but I'm not a piece of shit.
所以，如果我能坐下来，表现出脆弱的一面，然后说：“嘿，我并不完美，但我也不是一坨屎。
I'm enough.
我就够了
I don't need to do anything today." And that's, for me, that was these cultural moments of watching OutKast be inducted into the Hall of Fame and André 3000 going, "I'm not going to rap." But everyone wants you to.
我今天不需要做任何事情。”对我来说，这就是观看 OutKast 入选名人堂和 André 3000 的文化时刻，“我不会说唱。”但每个人都希望你这么做。
That's not where I'm at right now.
那不是我现在所处的位置。
I was like, fucking amazing.
我当时想，他妈的太棒了。
Or Tarantino saying Paul Dano.
或者塔伦蒂诺说保罗·达诺。
This is the worst part of "There Will Be Blood." I was like, "Wow, that's the best thing that ever happened." You saw everyone come out to say how brilliant he is.
这是《血色将至》中最糟糕的部分。我当时想，“哇，这是发生过的最好的事情。”你看到每个人都出来夸他有多聪明。
What if Tarantino just said, "Paul Dano's amazing"?
如果塔伦蒂诺只是说“保罗·达诺太棒了”怎么办？
So I just find these, without trying to psychoanalyze or overanalyze every moment of my life, just go, the space.
所以我只是找到这些，而不是试图对我生命中的每一刻进行精神分析或过度分析，只是去空间。
Because I've done the brain mapping, and the way it was explained to me, they dumbed it down.
因为我已经完成了大脑映射，并且按照向我解释的方式，他们把它简化了。
They're like, "You're not a psychopath because you do psychopathic things, but you actually care about people."
他们就像是，“你不是精神病患者，因为你做了精神病患者的事情，但你实际上关心别人。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're not a psychopath.
你不是一个精神病患者。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
And they say the space in your brain, there's a bridge.
他们说你大脑中的空间有一座桥。
Here's reality.
这就是现实。
It's like, should I jump off this cliff?
就像，我应该从悬崖上跳下去吗？
And most people will executive function, like, "Oh, okay.
大多数人都会执行职能，比如，“哦，好吧。
Maybe I'm going to get hurt." And that bridge is smaller for people like you.
也许我会受伤。”对于像你这样的人来说，这座桥更小。
They go, "So you don't really think, you just do." And then that's how you're like, "How did I end up in jail?
他们说，“所以你并没有真正思考，你只是做。”然后你就会想，“我怎么会进监狱呢？
How did I fucking..." And that makes for a great story.
我怎么他妈的……”这就是一个很棒的故事。
That makes for a great fucking life or a storybook crazy life.
这造就了他妈的美好生活或故事书般的疯狂生活。
And that's a story that's just told.
这是一个刚刚讲述的故事。
You need to be a fucking psychotic, insane, crazy person to be the greatest artist.
你需要成为一个他妈的精神病、疯狂、疯狂的人才能成为最伟大的艺术家。
If you're just a boring person living at home with air conditioning and Wi-Fi and your warm cup of Earl Grey, you could do good art.
如果你只是一个无聊的人，住在家里，有空调、无线网络，还有一杯温暖的格雷伯爵茶，你也可以创作出优秀的艺术作品。
You could even do great art, but you won't ever be the best because you're not facing your shadow.
你甚至可以创作伟大的艺术，但你永远不会成为最好的，因为你没有面对自己的影子。
You're not looking at yourself.
你不看看你自己。
That's just technique.
这只是技术。
That's just craft.
这只是手艺。
That's just skill.
这只是技巧。
I'm ripping my fucking heart out and showing it to you and being like, "What do you think?" I'm not saying, "What do you think?" I'm like, "Fucking what do you think?"
我把我他妈的心掏出来给你看，然后说：“你觉得怎么样？”我不是说：“你觉得怎么样？”我想，“他妈的你觉得怎么样？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, I feel it.
不，我感觉到了。
I feel it.
我感觉到了。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, I-
我的意思是，我——
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Sorry, there's spit all over the table.
抱歉，桌子上全是口水。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Please don't apologize.
请不要道歉。
Don't apologize.
别道歉。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
I'm slobbering.
我流口水了
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, please don't.
不，请不要。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
I'm slobbering right into your microphone.
我正对着你的麦克风流口水。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No apology.
没有道歉。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Ah!
啊！
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Ah!
啊！
You guys almost got me there.
你们几乎让我到了那里。
No apology.
没有道歉。
I feel it.
我感觉到了。
I feel it, and everybody feels it.
我感觉到了，每个人都感觉到了。
And if they don't They should take a look inside.
如果他们不这样做，他们应该看看里面。
It's going to sound like I'm name-dropping now, but-
听起来我现在好像在丢名了，但是——
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Go ahead.
继续吧。
Go for it
努力吧
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I feel very blessed-
我感到非常幸福——
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to have Rick Rubin as my close friend.
让里克·鲁宾成为我的密友。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not because he's Rick Rubin who produced all this music.
并不是因为他是制作所有这些音乐的 Rick Rubin。
That's super cool, too.
这也太酷了。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But because he has antennae.
但因为他有触角。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And he can feel shit.
他能感觉到屎。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And he can feel it, but he doesn't get absorbed in it.
他能感觉到它，但他并没有沉浸其中。
It's very interesting.
这很有趣。
I don't have that.
我没有那个。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I feel stuff and it-
我感觉到了一些东西，而且它——
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it just
它只是
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And, I am certain people feel your heart in what you do.
而且，我确信人们会在你所做的事情中感受到你的真心。
The self-sacrifice part is hard to hear about.
自我牺牲的部分很难听到。
I can relate.
我能体会到。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Well, I talked to Rob a little bit because he's like a PR dude before.
嗯，我和罗布聊过一点，因为他以前就像一个公关人员。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Was a PR.
是一名公关。
He's like a producer now.
他现在就像一个制片人。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
I mean, he's out of it.
我的意思是，他已经脱离了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
That smile hides a lot of pain right there.
那笑容里隐藏着太多的痛苦。
Look at that smile.
看看那个笑容。
But, yeah.
但是，是的。
It's hard.
这很难。
They say all these dumb quotes like, "No is a complete sentence," and it is, right?
他们说所有这些愚蠢的引言，比如“不是一个完整的句子”，确实如此，对吧？
If I go, "No," and then have to make up some fake like, "Oh, but my car did get a flat tire," but that used to be a thing I would make up, and then people would be like, "Let me see the metadata on your phone and make sure that's not a screenshot from two years..." So I would lie and make up excuses, but the ability to-- It goes against how I was raised.
如果我说“不”，然后不得不编造一些假象，“哦，但我的车确实爆了胎”，但这曾经是我编造的事情，然后人们会说，“让我看看你手机上的元数据，确保这不是两年前的屏幕截图……”所以我会撒谎并编造借口，但这种能力——这违背了我的成长方式。
It goes against my culture to just say no to my parents, no to jobs, no to leaving money on the table, so that I could put myself first for the first time and nurture my own heart and take care of myself is like, it just sounded like that's-- I'd already written my story.
对我的父母说“不”，对工作说“不”，对把钱留在桌子上说“不”，这样我才能第一次把自己放在第一位，培育自己的内心并照顾自己，这违背了我的文化，听起来就像是——我已经写好了我的故事。
And then when you have heroes like Bourdain, I think a lot of people also killed themselves after Bourdain did that because they're like, if the most interesting man on the planet, the guy that's a role model, a guy I look up to, he can't fucking figure it out, then fuck, what's there?
然后当你有像布尔登这样的英雄时，我想很多人在布尔登这样做之后也自杀了，因为他们就像，如果这个星球上最有趣的人，一个榜样，一个我尊敬的人，他他妈的无法弄清楚，那么他妈的，那里有什么？
And then almost validates it.
然后几乎验证了它。
Like it's, "So you can do it, too.
就像是，“所以你也能做到。
Anyone could." So I had it written out, like everyone I look up to, and it's so fucking boring and cliché when I think about it.
任何人都可以。”所以我把它写了下来，就像我尊敬的每个人一样，当我想到它时，它真是太他妈的无聊和陈词滥调了。
It makes me so angry.
这让我很生气。
It's like live fast, die young, and then just have people say nice shit about you, and it's like, or just be a little bit more boring and have wonderful relationships.
这就像活得快，死得早，然后人们就对你说好话，或者只是变得更无聊，但拥有美好的人际关系。
You call me and you go, "Oh, you're probably busy." I'm like, "I'm not that busy, dude." I'm not a busy person.
你打电话给我，然后说：“哦，你可能很忙。”我想，“我没那么忙，伙计。”我不是一个忙碌的人。
I make a lot of space for myself now.
我现在为自己腾出了很多空间。
And I deserve it.
这是我应得的。
I owe that to myself.
这是我对自己的亏欠。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I was about to say you've earned it, but you never needed to earn it.
是的，我正想说你已经赢得了它，但你从来不需要赢得它。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm glad to hear it because-
我很高兴听到这个消息，因为——
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Will you commit to taking a year off?
你会承诺休息一年吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I could use some time off at some point.
我可以在某个时候休息一下。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
All right.
好吧。
So that sounds like I'll start the negotiations at a year, and then if I can get you anywhere close to that.
所以听起来我会在一年后开始谈判，然后如果我能让你接近这个目标。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Because people will be like, "Oh, shit." The American vacation is a week or two weeks, right?
因为人们会说，“哦，该死。”美国的假期是一周或者两周吧？
That's nothing.
那没什么。
That's barely enough time to-
这时间勉强够——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I have all these war stories.
是的，我有所有这些战争故事。
I don't want to make this about me, but I have all these war stories like, my girlfriend at the time, she'll validate these as being diarrhea and vomiting while writing a grant back when.
我不想让这件事发生在我身上，但我有所有这些战争故事，比如，我当时的女朋友，她会在写一笔补助金时确认这些是腹泻和呕吐。
I've had so many wonderful opportunities, but I've been going pretty hard into the paint since I was 19.
我有过很多美妙的机会，但从 19 岁起我就开始非常努力地进入内线。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That means nonstop.
这意味着不间断。
That means, like, 50 to 100-hour weeks since then.
这意味着，从那时起，每周工作 50 到 100 个小时。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
What's the longest vacation you've ever taken in your life?
你一生中度过的最长的假期是多少？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Four days.
四天。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
This isn't me deflecting.
这不是我在回避。
It's just like, I just met you, and I'm so happy that, I was like, if he gives me the space to speak, which you did, and you can feel what I was trying to say and, to me, that's all I want is connection, right?
就像，我刚刚遇见你，我很高兴，我想，如果他给我说话的空间，你就这么做了，你就能感觉到我想说的话，对我来说，这就是我想要的只是联系，对吗？
I want to be seen now.
我现在就想被看到。
Before I was hiding and wearing masks.
在我躲起来并戴着面具之前。
But in that, I felt you, and I go, I didn't know what you were going to say, but I was like, "It's going to be less than a week." Because I know you don't get to where-- Nobody does.
但在那一刻，我感觉到了你，然后我走了，我不知道你会说什么，但我想，“这将是不到一周的时间。”因为我知道你无法到达——没有人能到达。
Everyone pays the price.
每个人都付出代价。
You don't get to where you are right now by taking time off.
你不可能通过休息来达到现在的水平。
You just don't.
你只是不这样做。
But like you just said to me, I'll say it back to you, you deserve it.
但就像你刚才对我说的，我会告诉你，你应得的。
And to speak to the workaholic part of you, and I say this to people that are like you and me, you will have more ideas, more inspiration, more-- You can't think now because you're thinking about how's Rob going to get paid.
与你工作狂的部分交谈，我对像你我这样的人说，你会有更多的想法，更多的灵感，更多——你现在不能思考，因为你正在考虑罗布将如何获得报酬。
Because you take care of a lot of people, right?
因为你照顾了很多人，对吗？
But in that time, I could come, I could get rid of all this black, I could add some color here.
但到那时，我可以来，我可以摆脱所有这些黑色，我可以在这里添加一些颜色。
I could get you some white T-shirts.
我可以给你买一些白T恤。
You could spend time with your family.
您可以与家人共度时光。
Just the shit that you're running from.
只是你正在逃避的那个狗屎。
And I feel like, okay, a year is unrealistic.
我觉得，好吧，一年是不现实的。
You're like, "I'm running a..." But people, "Oh, go do plant medicine." I was like, just taking a year off and first weeks or months will just be you unlearning the workaholism of just, I got to do something to have value, and I feel like when you come back, you'll be like a thousand.
你会说，“我正在经营……”但是人们，“哦，去做植物药吧。”我当时想，只要休息一年，头几周或几个月就会让你忘记工作狂，我必须做一些有价值的事情，我觉得当你回来时，你会像一千个人一样。
And sometimes in our culture, we get knocked down not by our choice and then, but I'm like, this would be by your choice.
有时在我们的文化中，我们被击倒不是因为我们的选择，但我想，这将是由你的选择决定的。
Taking care of Andy today.
今天照顾安迪。
Love you, Rob.
爱你，罗布。
Love all you guys out there, but You know what?
爱你们所有人，但你知道吗？
I'll run your podcast while you're gone.
你不在的时候我会运行你的播客。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That would be sick.
那会生病的。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
You could feed me some big words to use.
你可以给我一些大词来使用。
But-
但是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'll go paint.
我会去画画。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Oh my God.
天哪。
I feel more comfortable with you now, but it's like I think I would lie to you.
我现在和你在一起感觉更舒服了，但我觉得我会骗你。
Whatever you show me, I would be like, "Oh, that's cool." But, I think it's cool that anyone who's a egghead who spends time up here, I think every thinker needs to spend time playing music or painting because it's the opposite of that, right?
无论你向我展示什么，我都会说：“哦，那太酷了。”但是，我认为任何一个书呆子在这里花时间都是很酷的，我认为每个思想家都需要花时间演奏音乐或绘画，因为这是相反的，对吧？
You're using the other side of your brain, but it sounds like the way you're painting is very in your head, and I would just rip you out of that.
你正在使用大脑的另一侧，但听起来你绘画的方式已经在你的脑海中了，我会把你从这种方式中剥离出来。
And it would be very uncomfortable, but then you could see the...
这会很不舒服，但随后你会看到......
Kind of like life, right?
有点像生活，对吧？
You just see, throw shit at the wall and see what sticks, and through that, it's about control, right?
你只要看，把屎扔到墙上，看看什么能粘住，然后，这就是控制，对吧？
And part of being in 12-step in recovery is like, and the wisdom to know the difference, the serenity prayer, is I had to...
12步康复的一部分就像是，知道区别的智慧，平静的祈祷，是我必须......
You can't control mother nature.
你无法控制大自然。
You can't control a fire.
你无法控制火势。
You can't control what other people are going to think about you or say about you.
你无法控制其他人对你的看法或对你的评价。
You just can't.
你就是不能。
You could try to, "Let me write a paper and fifth," so that...
你可以尝试“让我写一篇论文和第五篇”，这样......
And yeah, you could do that for a little bit, but it's tiring and it's exhausting to try to get all these people to believe what...
是的，你可以这样做一点点，但是试图让所有这些人相信什么很累，也很累……
It's anti.
是反的。
It goes against to the word winning and the word surrender, right?
这与“胜利”和“投降”这两个词背道而驰，对吗？
I win every day because I surrender constantly now, and part of that, I got to still fight because it's like you sound like a loser.
我每天都赢，因为我现在不断投降，部分原因是我仍然必须战斗，因为你听起来像个失败者。
Why are you giving up, right?
你为什么要放弃，对吗？
It's going to fucking shut the fuck up, pick yourself up by your bootstraps, and get back in.
这会让你他妈的闭嘴，振作起来，然后再回来。
That's how you become the best.
这就是你如何成为最好的。
All the other artists, they're dealing with...
所有其他艺术家，他们正在处理......
You don't have kids.
你没有孩子。
You don't get married.
你不结婚。
You fucking paint.
你他妈的画画。
You go to the art store, you buy all the paint up.
你去艺术商店，买下所有的油漆。
You fucking keep painting.
你他妈的继续画。
You steal all the paints.
你偷走了所有的油漆。
It's like just keep painting, never stop, and it's all going to be worth it because one day you're going to die and then legacy, but now we see legacy is nothing, right?
这就像继续画画，永远不要停止，这一切都是值得的，因为有一天你会死，然后遗产，但现在我们看到遗产什么都不是，对吧？
I get in an Uber, get in the car, fucking smells like Teen Spirit, right?
我坐上一辆优步，上了车，他妈的闻起来像青少年精神，对吧？
One of the greatest anthems ever.
有史以来最伟大的国歌之一。
Guy in the car, 27 years old, "What's this?"
车里的一个人，27岁，“这是什么？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I'll tell you a-
好吧，我会告诉你一个——
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
"You don't know fucking Nirvana?
“你他妈的不知道涅槃吗？
Okay.
好的。
Have you seen 'Goodfella?'" Whatever.
你看过《好家伙》吗？”不管怎样。
Whatever who's the "Godfather," go down the list.
不管谁是“教父”，都在名单上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The greatest-
最伟大的——
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Nobody cares
没人关心
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
Right, the great-
对了，伟大的——
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
It's over
结束了
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the greatest scientific-
最伟大的科学——
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
So it's just this.
所以就这样了。
It's just this.
就是这样。
This is all you have.
这就是你所拥有的一切。
So you've done enough.
所以你已经做得够多了。
People fucking love you.
人们他妈的爱你。
You've helped so many people, and I want you to take one year off, and I don't care if people are like, "Fuck that guy.
你帮助了很多人，我希望你休息一年，我不在乎人们是否会说，“操那个家伙。
That guy helps me every day.
那家伙每天都帮助我。
I want to hear his soothing voice every night." But I'm like, "AI, bro.
我想每天晚上听到他舒缓的声音。”但我想，“人工智能，兄弟。
Just use AI." No, I'm kidding.
只需使用人工智能即可。”不，我在开玩笑。
I'm just saying I would love whatever you've been running from, whatever you've been doing to...
我只是说我会爱你一直在逃避的一切，无论你一直在做的事情......
You help a lot of people, but do you help yourself on that level?
你帮助了很多人，但你在那个层面上帮助了自己吗？
And it's like, yeah, starting painting, that's taking care of your...
就像，是的，开始画画，那就是照顾你的......
It's not complete all or nothing, but someone like you and other people like you are not going to outsmart the feeling, right?
这并不是全有或全无，但像你这样的人和其他像你这样的人不会比这种感觉更聪明，对吗？
You're not going to outrun the pain, and it's like I don't know what your father was like, I don't know what your mom was like, but they're proud of you.
你无法摆脱痛苦，就像我不知道你父亲是什么样，我不知道你妈妈是什么样，但他们为你感到骄傲。
You don't need to do more.
你不需要做更多的事情。
They're proud of you, and if you go to what I said, the only way to really make them proud is to disappoint them.
他们为你感到骄傲，如果你按照我说的去做，真正让他们感到骄傲的唯一方法就是让他们失望。
You just got to fucking, "Andrew, I'm really disappointed in you." Then you know you're doing something right.
你只需他妈的，“安德鲁，我对你真的很失望。”然后你就知道你正在做正确的事情。
Sorry for talking over you.
很抱歉谈论你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, I was interrupting.
不，我打扰了。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Your face says a lot, so I just want to know what you're...
你的表情说明了很多，所以我只想知道你是什么......
Try to-
尝试-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, the part about legacy is where I was interrupting, but let's let it pass because yes and yes.
好吧，关于遗产的部分是我打断的地方，但让我们让它过去吧，因为是的，是的。
The legacy thing, it-
遗留下来的东西，它——
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
It's nothing
没什么
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's nothing.
没什么。
And-
还有——
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
I feel like I've done so much in acting.
我觉得我在演戏上付出了很多。
I've done all these things, and people are like, "Who's that Chinese kid?" I'm like, "It doesn't matter."
我做了所有这些事情，人们会问，“那个中国孩子是谁？”我想，“没关系。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, they don't say-
嗯，他们没有说——
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
It doesn't matter.
没关系。
You do all this stuff so that you have something to leave behind, and I go, "You just have this.
你做所有这些事情是为了留下一些东西，然后我说：“你就拥有了这个。
You just have right now today, and that's it." And we did this today, and then it's off to the universe.
你只有今天，仅此而已。”我们今天做到了这一点，然后就走向了宇宙。
I can't control what people are going to think about me, and it's like I came here today with my intention of meeting you, telling you how you make me feel, and how much I appreciate you, and I did that.
我无法控制人们对我的看法，就像我今天来这里是为了见到你，告诉你你让我感觉如何，以及我有多么感激你，我做到了。
So that's it.
就是这样。
And I have no ill will.
而且我没有恶意。
I'm not trying to...
我并不是想...
Yeah, I probably talk shit about a lot of people right now, but it's like fine, okay.
是的，我现在可能会说很多人的坏话，但没关系，好吧。
And I should probably just let all that stuff go.
我也许应该把所有这些东西都放掉。
But to tell someone who's used to winning, who's fought tooth and nail for everything they had to fight and prove people wrong over and over again, to tell someone like that, "Hey, just surrender," it's like, "Fuck you, dude.
但是，如果告诉一个习惯于胜利、为所有事情拼尽全力、一次又一次地证明别人错了的人，对这样的人说“嘿，投降吧”，就好像在说：“操你，伙计。
You don't tell me that." So yeah, that journey from head to heart, it's a big one, and that's why you can't say that to everyone, right?
你不告诉我这个。”所以，是的，从头脑到心灵的旅程，这是一个很大的旅程，这就是为什么你不能对每个人都这么说，对吧？
Because they're like, "I got to fucking..." But I'm like, I don't know your financial situation, but I'm like, "I think you could take a year off." But that's the other thing, right?
因为他们会说，“我必须他妈的……”但我会说，我不知道你的财务状况，但我会说，“我认为你可以休息一年。”但那是另一回事，对吧？
"It must be nice, Dave, from your perspective," and I go, "I was homeless." I've lived the worst.
“从你的角度来看，这一定很好，戴夫，”我说，“我无家可归。”我经历过最糟糕的日子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
I know I sound defensive, but I wasn't born rich.
我知道我听起来很防御，但我并不是生来富有的。
I worked for this.
我为此工作过。
So it's like, "It must sound nice from a rich guy's perspective," and I go If I think back to my happiest moments or even just my most creative moments, it was always less.
所以这就像是，“从一个有钱人的角度来看，这听起来一定不错”，如果我回想起我最快乐的时刻，甚至只是我最有创意的时刻，它总是更少。
It was never more.
再也没有这样了。
Right?
正确的？
So when I lived in a tiny house, that means less doors to open, less walls to...
所以当我住在一个小房子里时，这意味着要打开的门更少，要打开的墙更少......
We're living together and it's fucking cold, but at least we got body.
我们住在一起，天气很冷，但至少我们还有身体。
I'm making it sound like we're...
我说得好像我们...
We were okay, but I'm like, we didn't have that much.
我们还好，但我想，我们没有那么多。
And it was great because we had each other.
这很棒，因为我们拥有彼此。
And I think back and I go, "Okay, creative output.
我回想起来，“好吧，创意输出。
Let's go to work.
我们去上班吧。
Let's go back into my head." And I go, oh, every time I had a Renaissance-level creative explosion, there was no Wi-Fi and there was no heater.
让我们回到我的脑海里吧。”我说，哦，每次我进行文艺复兴时期的创意爆发时，都没有 Wi-Fi，也没有加热器。
It was always freezing.
天气总是很冷。
It was cold.
天气很冷。
You're talking about deprivation.
你说的是剥夺。
Yeah.
是的。
And then now, it would be with my attention span, it would be impossible for me to get anything done if I didn't go out of my way to block all my electronic devices.
然后现在，以我的注意力范围来说，如果我不竭尽全力阻止我所有的电子设备，我将不可能完成任何事情。
I couldn't do it.
我做不到。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My social media is on a separate phone.
我的社交媒体位于另一部手机上。
It goes into a lockbox that can't be coded out-
它被放入一个无法密码的密码箱中-
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Hey, you don't need a-
嘿，你不需要-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to get work done.
完成工作。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What I hear...
我听到的...
Well, first of all, I want to be clear that-
嗯，首先，我想明确的是——
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
I don't need an answer from you.
我不需要你的答案。
I'm just throwing the challenge, the gauntlet down.
我只是提出挑战，接受挑战。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All right.
好吧。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
I would love for you to take one year off.
我希望你能休息一年。
As someone who I just met, who I care about, and we're humans, right?
作为我刚刚认识的人，我关心的人，我们都是人类，对吗？
Can't just run forever.
不能永远跑下去。
There needs to be a recharge, a refresh.
需要充电、刷新。
There's just things that you get offered, I guess.
我想，你会得到一些东西。
You're like, "I'm never going to do that."
你会说，“我永远不会那样做。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm not saying I wouldn't do it.
我并不是说我不会这样做。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
"Why don't you go to this retreat and just work on this part of your heart or this part of your journey for a month?" And you're like, "Pfft, I'm not going to fucking do that." And it's like, but why not?
“你为什么不去这个静修所，花一个月的时间专注于你内心的这一部分或你旅程的这一部分呢？”你会说，“噗，我他妈不会这么做的。”就像，但为什么不呢？
You deserve it.
你值得拥有。
And it's going to be hard.
这会很困难。
It's not like a fun vacation.
这不像是一个有趣的假期。
And for me, the way I think about it is part of what, because I take podcasting, so I try to manicure how I look and sound, and I do a lot of re- people, and I try to make it look like I didn't, right?
对我来说，我思考它的方式是其中的一部分，因为我做播客，所以我尝试修饰我的外观和声音，我做了很多重新设计，我试图让它看起来像我没有，对吗？
Before I go on Joe Rogan or Howard Stern, I call up people and I fucking do, I talk for 12.
在我继续谈论乔·罗根或霍华德·斯特恩之前，我给人们打电话，我他妈的，我说的是12。
I go, "Does this work?" And then I come on and I try, and that's fake.
我问：“这有用吗？”然后我继续尝试，但那是假的。
And it's been years since I did a podcast, so I was like, I'm getting a very genuine feeling from you, and so I don't want to do that today.
我已经好几年没有做播客了，所以我想，我从你那里得到了一种非常真实的感觉，所以我今天不想这样做。
And I was fucking, that's why I was puking.
我他妈的，这就是我呕吐的原因。
I was scared.
我很害怕。
I was like, I'm just going to come in and I might say something that fucks me up because it has so many times, but I'm just going to be the truest version of...
我当时想，我刚要进来，我可能会说一些让我操蛋的话，因为这样的事情已经发生过很多次了，但我只是要成为最真实的版本……
I guess I could...
我想我可以...
That was scary to me.
这对我来说很可怕。
That was like really being naked.
那就像真的赤身裸体。
I like to be prepared.
我喜欢做好准备。
And last night, it was late, I couldn't sleep, and I was like, "Oh, fuck.
昨晚，很晚了，我无法入睡，我就想，“哦，操。
I can't believe..." Because it's like I live a quiet, private, I don't...
我不敢相信……”因为就像我生活在一个安静、私密的环境中，我不……
And I was like, "Oh, man." It was like, let me, not like you're the enemy.
我当时想，“哦，伙计。”就好像，让我来，而不是你是敌人。
I was like, oh, I'm going into enemy territory.
我当时想，哦，我要进入敌人的领土了。
What if he has a got you question?
如果他问你一个问题怎么办？
I have to have a...
我必须有一个...
It was like I was at Vice again.
这就像我又回到了 Vice。
Vice was so much riffing and witty comebacks, and I was like, "This is exhausting." And I was like, "But can you just go and just..." And I realize it took me two hours to answer one question, but I also accept that about myself.
《Vice》充满了即兴发挥和诙谐的回归，我当时想，“这太累了。”我当时想，“但是你能不能去……”我意识到我花了两个小时才回答一个问题，但我也接受我自己的这一点。
But yeah, I started, Andrew Hub- and then it was like, it finishes your name and all, and I was like, "I'm not going to do this.
但是，是的，我开始了，安德鲁·哈布——然后就像，它完成了你的名字和所有，我当时想，“我不会这样做。
I don't want to do this.
我不想这样做。
I don't want to just fucking read about you all night and then have come in prepared and-"
我不想他妈的整晚都在读关于你的事，然后就做好了准备然后——”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Great.
伟大的。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
I was like, I just-
我当时想，我只是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm so glad-
我很高兴-
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
I'm just going to go in
我正要进去
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you abandoned that.
你放弃了那个。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
I did.
我做到了。
I did.
我做到了。
I said just fucking tell-
我说只是他妈的告诉-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Dude.
伙计。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Man, I'm so grateful you showed up here in that frame, that no-frame frame.
伙计，我很感激你出现在那个框架中，那个无框架的框架中。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know as soon as I start talking, if I say anything kind about you, you're going to get that thing.
我知道一旦我开始说话，如果我对你说任何好话，你就会明白。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
No, I-
不，我——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I'm just going to tell you.
但我只是要告诉你。
I'll tell you.
我告诉你。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
I'll prepare.
我会准备的。
I'll sit down.
我会坐下来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There are a couple reasons you're here.
您来这里有几个原因。
Some of them I touched on earlier.
我之前提到过其中一些。
You're an amazing artist.
你是一位了不起的艺术家。
You're an amazing person.
你是一个了不起的人。
But the main reason you're here is because a long time ago, I saw you at a meeting.
但你来这里的主要原因是因为很久以前，我在一个会议上看到了你。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I learned from you there.
我在那里向你学习。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I was like, "I would like to be his friend."
我当时想，“我想成为他的朋友。”
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Oh, wow.
哦，哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"And I know I can learn a lot from him."
“而且我知道我可以从他身上学到很多东西。”
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Oh my God.
天哪。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So without getting into any details about that-
因此，无需深入了解任何细节 -
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah.
是的。
You can.
你可以。
I don't care.
我不在乎。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, maybe another time.
好吧，也许下次吧。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
I told you, I'm-
我告诉过你，我是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You've helped me a ton.
你帮了我很多忙。
I also have this model in my head.
我脑子里也有这个模型。
Maybe this is the scientist in me where, but I feel like you've made yourself the anvil, the hammer, and the metal.
也许这就是我身上的科学家，但我觉得你已经把自己变成了铁砧、锤子和金属。
And it's like this cycle of the opportunity to do something, to feel something, and then I guess my friend Ryan Suave was right.
这就像做某事、感受某事的机会的循环，然后我想我的朋友 Ryan Suave 是对的。
He said, "People get addicted to shame."
他说：“人们会沉迷于羞耻感。”
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But to me, it's the whole cycle, right?
但对我来说，这就是整个周期，对吗？
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But the thing that I really want you to take in is that people learn from what comes out of your mouth.
但我真正希望你明白的是，人们会从你嘴里说出来的事情中学习。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes, the stories are interesting, infinitely interesting and entertaining also.
是的，故事很有趣，无限有趣，也很有趣。
And yes, you have a gift for storytelling, just like you have a gift for art.
是的，你有讲故事的天赋，就像你有艺术的天赋一样。
But people learn.
但人们会学习。
And we touched on Bourdain, who I didn't know.
我们还谈到了我不认识的布尔登。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know you and Joe were both close to him.
我知道你和乔都和他很亲近。
I know a couple other people were close to him.
我知道还有几个人与他关系密切。
And I'm not here on a public service campaign.
我来这里并不是为了参加公共服务活动。
That's not how I do this podcast.
这不是我做这个播客的方式。
I'm only here with you right now, but there are a lot of people offing themselves.
我现在只和你在一起，但有很多人在自杀。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Close friend do that recently.
亲密的朋友最近这样做了。
A very famous scientist that appeared to have everything, this kind of thing, and it's happening more and more.
一位非常著名的科学家，似乎拥有一切，这种事情，而且越来越多。
And I think that when people hear you, when I hear you, I know what people hear.
我认为当人们听到你的声音时，当我听到你的声音时，我知道人们听到了什么。
They feel you.
他们感觉到你。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they hear the extent to which, yeah, there a lot of hard stuff and great stuff happened, but you're still here and you're still going.
他们听到了，是的，发生了很多艰难的事情和伟大的事情，但你仍然在这里，你仍然会走。
And that example is really, really important.
这个例子真的非常非常重要。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Well, I don't want to be a survivor.
好吧，我不想成为幸存者。
It's like I'm a survivor because I survived all this stuff, but so did everybody, and I'm not trying to like-
就好像我是一个幸存者，因为我熬过了所有这些事情，但每个人也是如此，我并不是想喜欢-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
But you're still going
但你还是要走
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
...
...
but I don't want to survive.
但我不想活下去。
I want to thrive.
我想要茁壮成长。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
You're a thriver.
你是一个蓬勃发展的人。
Great.
伟大的。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
That's why I think of Korean Jesus or Pee-wee Herman and I go, I try to keep things light and entertaining.
这就是为什么我想到韩国耶稣或皮威·赫尔曼，我努力让事情变得轻松有趣。
It was a lot.
这是很多。
It was really painful, right?
真的很痛苦，对吧？
If you get it, it wasn't easy, and it wasn't easy for everyone.
如果你得到它，这并不容易，对每个人来说也不容易。
But so then you go, "Well, will you work on yourself?
但接下来你就会说：“那么，你愿意为自己努力吗？
Will you do this work?
你会做这项工作吗？
Will you go to a meeting?" And it's like, are we having fun yet, right?
你要去参加一个会议吗？”就像，我们玩得开心吗？
It's a lot of fucking pain and work to just be...
这是很多他妈的痛苦和工作，只是......
And the question is like, are we having fun yet?
问题是，我们玩得开心吗？
Aren't we supposed to have fun?
我们不是应该玩得很开心吗？
My son wakes up every morning laughing.
我儿子每天早上都会笑着醒来。
I go, "What the fuck is happening up there?" I can't remember the last time I woke up smiling.
我问道：“上面到底发生了什么？”我不记得上次我微笑着醒来是什么时候了。
It's like and I'm like, oh, if we can remember.
就像，我想，哦，如果我们能记得的话。
It was dumb doing the secret word, but I loved it.
说这个秘密词很蠢，但我喜欢它。
You guys scared the shit.
你们吓坏了。
And people trigger warning.
人们会触发警告。
There's a lot of people killing themselves, on an epidemic.
有很多人因为流行病而自杀。
Men.
男人。
I don't know that many women, but a lot of men.
我认识的女性不多，但男性不少。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's mostly men.
大部分都是男性。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
And so a powerful tool, because I've done so much reckless shit.
这是一个强大的工具，因为我做了很多鲁莽的事情。
It's a miracle that I'm here right now, and I'm not saying that to be like, "Oh, I just-"
我现在在这里真是一个奇迹，我这么说并不是为了说“哦，我只是——”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, I think it is a miracle.
不，我认为这是一个奇迹。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
I could have been dead a lot of times.
我可能已经死了很多次了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, I think God's been looking out for you, for sure.
不，我想上帝肯定一直在照顾你。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
So I say to myself without aggrandizing myself or being on some guru Messiah-type shit.
所以我对自己说，不要夸大自己，也不要在做一些大师弥赛亚式的狗屎。
It's like, so I made it through that.
就像，所以我成功了。
I am having fun despite how much I cry and stuff.
尽管我哭了很多，但我还是很开心。
But even that, I would be called a pussy and all that if I did that.
但即便如此，如果我这样做的话，我也会被称为胆小鬼之类的。
And I go, I just allowing myself to feel everything, and so I learned this tool called just play the tape out, right?
我走了，我只是让自己感受一切，所以我学会了这个工具，叫做播放磁带，对吗？
So you go, if you're an idiot, you're an idiot, but if you have any level of intelligence, you go, "Well, how do you think this ends for you?
所以你说，如果你是个白痴，你就是个白痴，但如果你有一定程度的智力，你会说，“好吧，你认为这对你来说结局如何？
How do you think this drug problem ends for you?
你认为这个毒品问题对你来说结局如何？
How do you think cheating on your wife ends for you?
你认为背叛你的妻子会给你带来怎样的结局？
How do you think nonstop gambling..." It doesn't end well, right?
你觉得如何不停地赌博……”结局不太好吧？
That's one of my favorite things to tell my friend.
这是我最喜欢告诉我朋友的事情之一。
"Ah, it's okay right now.
“啊，现在已经没事了。
It's..." And I go, but addiction, it just escalates.
这是……”我走了，但上瘾的情况却不断升级。
It doesn't stay.
它不会留下来。
And then someone like me, it escalates very quickly, so it's dangerous.
然后像我这样的人，升级速度非常快，所以很危险。
And addiction loves novelty, right?
上瘾喜欢新奇，对吗？
So if someone's sucking dick for crack in an alley right now, that little boy, he was a little boy when they go, "I hope I do that one day." That happened.
所以，如果现在有人在小巷里吸吮阴茎，那个小男孩，当他们走的时候，他还是个小男孩，“我希望有一天我会这么做。”那件事发生了。
Started with weed, then it went to coke, and it just escalated, right?
一开始是大麻，然后是可乐，然后就升级了，对吗？
He wasn't like, "I want to do degrading acts that I don't want to do for drugs," but it escalated, and that's on the addict side.
他并不是说，“我想做一些我不想为毒品做的有辱人格的行为”，但事情升级了，而且是在瘾君子方面。
But I just found myself having a lot of weird broken promises.
但我发现自己有很多奇怪的违背诺言的事情。
I swear I'll never do that, but then I'm like, here I am in this weird place doing weird shit that it's going against my value system.
我发誓我永远不会那样做，但后来我想，我在这个奇怪的地方做着奇怪的事情，这违背了我的价值体系。
Here I am.
我在这里。
Oh, I'm chasing the shame again.
唉，我又开始追耻辱了。
So I know this is kind of hypocritical because I'm applying logic again, but if you just talk to someone and you use this tool of, hey, you're not an idiot.
所以我知道这有点虚伪，因为我再次应用逻辑，但如果你只是和某人交谈并且使用这个工具，嘿，你不是白痴。
Play the tape out.
播放磁带。
Your behavior that's chasing a bottom or destructive or not that destructive yet, but it's on the path, and you're like, "Yeah, I'll be all right." It's like, just play it out.
你的行为是在追寻底部，或者是破坏性的，或者还没有那么破坏性，但它已经在路上了，你会说，“是的，我会没事的。”就像，只是玩一下。
How do you think this ends for you, right?
你认为这对你来说结局如何，对吗？
I go, I need to go back to podcasting, right?
我走了，我需要回去播客，对吧？
And then I go on these podcasts and I go, are we having fun yet?
然后我继续听这些播客，我想，我们玩得开心吗？
You seem like you got the weight of the world on your shoulders.
你似乎肩负着全世界的重担。
You seem miserable.
你看起来很可怜。
In general, I don't find podcasters happy people.
总的来说，我不认为播客是快乐的人。
It's just like, I go so, cut.
就像，我就这样，切。
Let's go.
我们走吧。
And it's like, oh shit, sponsors.
就像，天哪，赞助商。
Da, da, da.
达，达，达。
It's like blah, the numbers are going down this...
这就像废话，数字正在下降......
And I'm like, can we have fun?
我想，我们可以玩得开心吗？
Is it only about making money and just...
难道只是为了赚钱吗？
It's enough.
够了。
And it's because we live in a society, especially if you live in a city where the messaging from billboards to social, everything is telling you from the second you wake up.
这是因为我们生活在一个社会中，特别是如果你生活在一个从广告牌到社交媒体的信息传递的城市，从你醒来的那一刻起，一切都在告诉你。
It's not hundreds, it's thousands of messages telling you you're not enough, right?
这不是数百条，而是数千条消息告诉你你还不够，对吧？
And so I do the brain mapping, I do all, and it's like, wow, Dave, you're really hard on yourself.
所以我做了大脑图谱，我做了所有的事情，这就像，哇，戴夫，你对自己真的很严格。
You say so much.
你说这么多。
If someone said that to my friend, I would do something.
如果有人对我的朋友这么说，我会做某事。
So it's like a lot of punishing self-talk, and then it feels gay to say, "I'm enough." That again, why do you have to say it like that?
所以这就像很多惩罚性的自言自语，然后说“我够了”感觉很快乐。话又说回来，为什么一定要这样说呢？
It's like, oh, I'm worthy.
就像，哦，我值得。
I am a good person.
我是一个好人。
I am a good father.
我是一个好父亲。
I am a good friend.
我是一个好朋友。
I am a good brother.
我是个好兄弟。
It's like, this sounds like just self-help.
这听起来像是自助。
But I was able to brainwash myself into believing I was the best artist in the world till, so why can't I brainwash myself into thinking I'm a good person?
但我能够给自己洗脑，让自己相信自己是世界上最好的艺术家，那为什么我不能给自己洗脑，让自己相信自己是一个好人呢？
So then I go, when I meet people, I want to say nice stuff, like real stuff, not like that's how I feel.
所以当我遇到人时，我想说一些好话，就像真实的事情一样，而不是像我的感受那样。
And it's like, that's weird.
这就像，这很奇怪。
I don't want to just tell someone his shirt fits good on him, but it does.
我不想只是告诉别人他的衬衫很适合他，但事实确实如此。
Even for black, it does.
即使对于黑色来说，也是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
So the tools is like ...
所以工具就像...
writing with deodorant, like a thick, white, chunky deodorant.
用除臭剂书写，就像一种浓稠的、白色的、厚实的除臭剂。
Just so I see it, so it's in my psyche, because every day it's billboards of good-looking people, and I don't look like that.
就像我看到的那样，它就在我的心灵中，因为每天都是好看的人的广告牌，而我看起来不是那样的。
And so the messaging is all fucked up, and unless I'm just going to say, "Fuck all internet" and just move to the African wilderness, which I might do.
所以消息传递都是一团糟，除非我只是想说，“操所有的互联网”，然后搬到非洲荒野，我可能会这么做。
Yeah, just write on the wall, "I am worthy.
是的，只要在墙上写下：“我值得。
I'm enough." And I see it every morning when I wash my face, and it's just like I'm starting to brainwash myself.
我就够了。”而我每天早上洗脸的时候都会看到它，就像我开始给自己洗脑一样。
It's like that's one tool is telling people I love and I care about how I feel about them, not till they're dead, not till it's like they're in their bottom and I'm like, "Hey." I tell them every day, because that's all we have.
就好像这是一种工具，可以告诉我爱的人，我关心我对他们的感受，直到他们死了，直到他们陷入谷底，我才会说，“嘿。”我每天都告诉他们，因为这就是我们所拥有的一切。
And then I say that about myself, and then I can catch myself.
然后我就这样说我自己，然后我就可以控制自己了。
Like that bridge that was basically like a suicide bridge, just like reckless behavior, reckless, irresponsible behavior, immature behavior.
就像那座桥，基本上就像一座自杀桥，就像鲁莽的行为，鲁莽的，不负责任的行为，不成熟的行为。
But all of this shit is hard because I'm coming at it with generations of a story that says, "You need to stay sick." Like when you hear Kanye say, "Bipolar is my superpower," there's a part of me that's like, "Of course." And I like my artists fucked up.
但所有这些事情都很困难，因为我要讲的故事几代人都在说：“你需要生病。”就像当你听到 Kanye 说“双向情感障碍是我的超能力”时，我内心的一部分会说“当然。”我喜欢我的艺术家搞砸了。
The more fucked up you are, that's true genius.
你越操蛋，那才是真正的天才。
And I go, I have friends close to me that go, "As someone who's as creative as you, you're so boring and small thinking when you just buy into those things." It's like, is there anyone who lives a moderate life, just the regular, everything doesn't have to be jumping on a train and like, that is doing great art?
我说，我有一些亲近的朋友说，“作为一个像你一样有创造力的人，当你只相信这些东西时，你是多么无聊和狭隘。”就好像，有没有人过着温和的生活，有规律，一切都不必跳上火车之类的，那就是在做伟大的艺术？
And I go, "Show me an example." And I go, "But couldn't you be the first?" Well, there's ego and narcissism, and it's just like, and then, okay, fine.
我说：“给我举个例子。”我说：“但是你就不能是第一个吗？”嗯，有自我和自恋，就像，然后，好吧，好吧。
Let's play that tape out.
我们来播放那盘磁带吧。
Let's just say for you to make the choice to be a normal person, you're never going to have the best podcast or the best art.
这么说吧，如果你选择成为一个普通人，你永远不会拥有最好的播客或最好的艺术。
You're just going to be right there, 70%.
你就在那里，70%。
What's wrong with that ?
这有什么问题吗？
But that's going against everything, right?
但这违背了一切，对吧？
It's hard.
这很难。
And especially something with art where there's just people that are like, "You're literally doing the worst art I've ever seen in my life." It's like, "Oh, their first album was good" type shit.
尤其是在艺术方面，人们会说，“你确实在做我一生中见过的最糟糕的艺术。”就像，“哦，他们的第一张专辑很棒”之类的狗屎。
And there's part of me that's like, yeah, the earlier stuff had more angst and way more detail and more labored over, and the stuff now is way more looser.
我的一部分感觉是，是的，早期的东西有更多的焦虑，更多的细节和更多的努力，而现在的东西更加宽松。
But I love it now.
但我现在喜欢它。
I like myself how I feel, and it's very rare that you have the whole lonely at the top, that you have these champions, people that are the best at what they do, the top 1% of the world champion of this, this, that.
我喜欢我自己的感受，很少有人能在巅峰时感到孤独，你拥有这些冠军，他们是他们所做的事情中最好的人，世界冠军中这个、这个、那个的前 1%。
You meet them, and they're just like a content, satisfied, happy person.
你见到他们，他们就像一个满足、满足、快乐的人。
They're just miserable, and you're like, "What was the point?
他们只是很痛苦，而你会想，“这有什么意义？
Why?" And it's either you have the courage through yourself and friends to make that change.
为什么？”要么你通过自己和朋友有勇气做出改变。
Like, if you take a year off, we're going to hang out a lot.
就像，如果你休息一年，我们就会经常出去玩。
We're going to paint.
我们要去画画。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's awesome incentive.
这是很棒的激励。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
We're going to surf.
我们要去冲浪。
We're going to do all that.
我们将做这一切。
But it's always like you got to do it alone.
但似乎总是你必须独自完成。
That was my message.
这就是我的信息。
Like shut the fuck up.
就像他妈的闭嘴。
Don't complain.
别抱怨。
Very Asian, very Korean.
非常亚洲，非常韩国。
Don't say anything.
什么也别说。
Someone fucking treats you like shit, just keep your head down and just, it's all revenge is a dish best served cold.
有人他妈的把你当狗屎一样对待，只要低下头，这一切都是报复，冷盘最好吃。
Just fucking shut-- Don't ever let them know, see you coming, see how you feel, and just your revenge is success.
就他妈的闭嘴——永远不要让他们知道，看到你来了，看看你的感受，只要你的复仇就是成功。
That guy treated you shit at work, then just become the guy that owns that business and then fire him.
那个人在工作中对你很不好，然后就成为那家公司的老板，然后解雇他。
Oh, I'm so fucking glad that guy Chip got fired.
噢，我真他妈高兴奇普那个家伙被解雇了。
That felt so good.
那种感觉真好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Chip sounds like an asshole.
奇普听起来像个混蛋。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
He was such an asshole.
他真是个混蛋。
And those things, all these tools are like, okay, cool.
那些东西，所有这些工具就像，好吧，很酷。
They're all simple.
它们都很简单。
Okay, wake up every day and say, "I'm a good person." Yeah, it's simple, but it's hard.
好吧，每天醒来都说：“我是一个好人。”是的，这很简单，但很难。
It's not easy.
这并不容易。
You have to work at it.
你必须努力去做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And feel it.
并感受它。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah.
是的。
Like, oh, get up every day and do 100 pushups.
就像，哦，每天起床做100个俯卧撑。
I could do that, but I don't.
我可以这么做，但我没有。
But you could.
但你可以。
It's like, but you care about your physical health, but why wouldn't you do that for your mental health or your spiritual health?
就像，虽然你关心你的身体健康，但你为什么不关心你的心理健康或精神健康呢？
It's like, "Oh, I'm not religious." It's like spirituality is, it's the ocean.
就像，“哦，我没有宗教信仰。”就像灵性一样，它是海洋。
It's the universe.
这是宇宙。
It's a power greater than you, right?
这力量比你还大吧？
So, yeah, playing the tape out is a very valuable, powerful...
所以，是的，播放磁带是非常有价值、强大的……
I need to take action in this way, and sometimes the action is to do less, and it's to do nothing, where everything growing up was do more.
我需要以这种方式采取行动，有时行动是少做，或者什么都不做，而成长的一切都是多做。
And I was going to say, "Am I making any sense?" But through your face, I could see that I feel heard, and I feel understood in this moment, which is very special to me, so thank you.
我想说：“我说得有道理吗？”但从你的脸上，我可以看到我感到被倾听，这一刻我感到被理解，这对我来说很特别，所以谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
You are absolutely heard, and you're absolutely understood, and I'm very grateful to you, and I know everyone listening is too.
你绝对被听到，你绝对被理解，我非常感谢你，我知道每个倾听的人也是如此。
The permission to tell oneself and feel that they are enough is, that's oddly the hardest thing, but the encouragement is heard.
奇怪的是，允许自己告诉自己并觉得自己已经足够了，这是最困难的事情，但鼓励是可以听到的。
It lands.
它落地了。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
I think also, because I talk so much about shame, and I'll end it with this, it feels like hope and faith is also a very powerful drug.
我还认为，因为我谈论了太多关于羞耻的话题，我会以此结束它，感觉希望和信仰也是一种非常强大的药物。
And sometimes like I said with my mom or me believing in Santa, there's no logic in that, but entire wars and nations are fought over faith.
有时就像我对我妈妈或我相信圣诞老人所说的那样，这没有逻辑，但整个战争和国家都是为了信仰而战。
And I feel like because I'm sensitive and I'm empathetic to everybody that I meet That it feels like a really hopeless time, and I feel like that's why there's a lot of self-harm and depression.
我觉得因为我很敏感，我对我遇到的每个人都有同理心，那感觉就像是一个非常绝望的时期，我觉得这就是为什么有很多自残和抑郁的原因。
And so it's weird.
所以这很奇怪。
It's like, how would you be hopeful in a city like LA where there's 70,000 homeless people, natural disasters, drug epidemics, just all this shit.
就像，在洛杉矶这样一个有 70,000 名无家可归者、自然灾害、毒品泛滥等等的城市里，你怎么会有希望呢？
And it's like, then to brainwash yourself, because that's what the connection is.
就像，然后给自己洗脑，因为这就是联系。
If I don't believe it to go out there and meet someone in real life and say, "Hey, I'm having..." It was the hardest thing to do.
如果我不相信去现实生活中遇到某人并说：“嘿，我正在……”这是最难做的事情。
It was like, "I need help right now." It's weird to admit to someone that I can't even come up with one nice thing to say about myself.
就像是，“我现在需要帮助。”向某人承认我什至无法想出一件关于自己的好话来形容自己，这很奇怪。
Can you say something nice about me?
你能说我几句好话吗？
That sounds very egotistic, but I need that right now.
这听起来很自负，但我现在就需要它。
I really don't like myself right now.
我真的不喜欢现在的自己。
And to have someone say something nice, and you go, "Okay, maybe tomorrow I'll be able to say something nice about myself." And then you're building something called hope and faith.
如果有人说一些好话，你就会说：“好吧，也许明天我就能说一些关于自己的好话了。”然后你正在建立一种叫做希望和信念的东西。
And so I don't know.
所以我不知道。
I told a long Pee-wee Herman story, but at the end of that, I was like, "What was that?" It's like, okay, that's resilience, that's taking a chance, that's believing in yourself.
我讲了一个很长的皮威·赫尔曼的故事，但在故事结束时，我想，“那是什么？”就像，好吧，这就是韧性，就是抓住机会，就是相信自己。
But I never gave up hope.
但我从未放弃希望。
And that's delusional in a way, but that's...
这在某种程度上是一种妄想，但那是……
Like how?
怎么样？
If you take facts and numbers and it's like, this is the end of the world, AI's going to kill, all this fucking doomsday post-apocalyptic, it's like, I don't need that shit, dude.
如果你掌握事实和数字，就会感觉，这是世界末日，人工智能会杀人，所有这些他妈的世界末日后世界末日，就像，我不需要那些狗屎，伙计。
I don't watch horror movies.
我不看恐怖片。
I don't surround myself with...
我不会让自己被...
That's fine.
没关系。
Everyone do your own thing.
每个人都做自己的事情。
And like I said, we were both like, we like punk, but we don't like hardcore.
就像我说的，我们都喜欢朋克，但我们不喜欢硬核。
I used to love hardcore because I needed that.
我曾经喜欢硬核，因为我需要它。
I needed to hear that message vibrationally and spiritually and sonically to go like, "Oh, that guy's singing at a frequency that's resonating with me." It doesn't now.
我需要从振动上、精神上和声音上听到这个信息，然后说：“哦，那个家伙唱歌的频率与我产生共鸣。”现在不行了。
And I fucking hated reggae my whole life because those people were happy.
我一生都讨厌雷鬼音乐，因为那些人很快乐。
And now I listen to reggae.
现在我听雷鬼音乐。
I go reggae on the river, whatever.
不管怎样，我都会在河边听雷鬼音乐。
And I immediately judge, like, "I can't believe you're fucking listening to reggae.
我立即判断，“我不敢相信你他妈的在听雷鬼音乐。
This is stoner music." But the frequency is hitting me now, so I can be appreciative of hardcore music.
这是斯托纳音乐。”但现在这个频率正在打击我，所以我可以欣赏硬核音乐。
But, yeah, if I look back and I go, what was that?
但是，是的，如果我回头看，那是什么？
What the fuck was that?
那是什么鬼？
It was just screaming for help, lost, and hopeless.
它只是尖叫着寻求帮助，迷失了，绝望了。
And I just go, hope is a hard thing to have in a time like this, but not if you ask for help, not if you reach out, not if you connect with other people.
我只是说，在这样的时刻，希望是一件很难的事情，但如果你寻求帮助，如果你伸出援手，如果你与其他人联系，就不会。
And that is going to be impossible to do if you don't...
如果你不这样做，这是不可能做到的...
Now I sound like I'm a fucking know-it-all, but it's like you need to deprive yourself of electronics.
现在我听起来好像我是一个他妈的万事通，但这就像你需要剥夺自己的电子产品。
It has to happen.
它必须发生。
You can't have real emotion if you're watching TV or your phone.
如果你在看电视或玩手机，你就不可能有真正的情感。
It's the only way.
这是唯一的办法。
It's like a secret language.
这就像一种秘密语言。
Anytime I'm out and someone has a clamshell phone or a flip phone, a dumb phone, whatever, a brick phone, they have whatever you call it, I give a wink.
每当我出去时，如果有人有翻盖手机或翻盖手机，哑巴手机，无论什么，砖头手机，无论你怎么称呼它，我都会眨眼。
I go, yeah.
我去，是的。
Because I know, I'm like, this guy, he cares about himself.
因为我知道，我想，这个人，他关心自己。
Because you can't.
因为你不能。
Oh, I got to focus.
哦，我得集中注意力。
You're like, no, you don't.
你就像，不，你不。
You don't need to know who's being murdered on every country, and what are you going to do about it?
您不需要知道每个国家都有谁被谋杀，以及您将采取什么措施？
Nothing.
什么也没有。
So I believe, I have faith, that we're all here for a reason, and to anyone listening, and I don't know when this is coming out, and I honestly didn't know I was going to publicly come out about my belief in Santa Claus, but it is the season.
所以我相信，我有信心，我们来这里都是有原因的，对任何倾听的人来说，我不知道这是什么时候出来的，老实说，我也不知道我会公开表达我对圣诞老人的信仰，但现在是时候了。
Is this going to come out soon or after Christmas?
这会很快发布还是圣诞节后发布？
Okay.
好的。
Just try it on.
试穿一下吧。
Just, I know it's stupid, but just believe in Santa.
只是，我知道这很愚蠢，但请相信圣诞老人。
I know kids already do, but any grown-ups, bitter, jaded adults listening, just try it on this year.
我知道孩子们已经这样做了，但是任何成年人，痛苦的，疲惫的成年人，今年就尝试一下吧。
He can teleport.
他可以传送。
He's a mutant.
他是一个变种人。
He has special abilities, and he knows if you've been naughty or nice.
他有特殊能力，他知道你是淘气还是友善。
So yeah.
所以是的。
I don't know.
我不知道。
This is the problem because where we're at now is when I would start.
这就是问题所在，因为我们现在所处的位置正是我开始的时候。
This was the pre...
这是预...
When I used to do my podcast, DVDSA, this would be like, oh, it wasn't a podcast because it wasn't a conversation.
当我以前制作播客 DVDSA 时，这就像，哦，这不是播客，因为它不是对话。
It was you talking the whole time, and we're three hours in, and be like, "Okay, now let's start.
一直都是你在说话，我们已经三个小时了，然后就说，“好吧，现在我们开始吧。
Let's get ugly and real." And be like, "Nobody likes to talk for nine hours, dude." I'm like, "I do." So I feel like you'd be down if we wanted to go six more hours.
让我们变得丑陋而真实。”然后说，“没有人喜欢聊九个小时，伙计。”我说，“我愿意。”所以我觉得如果我们想再聊六个小时，你就会感到沮丧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Easy.
容易。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
And we could maybe do that one day.
也许有一天我们可以做到这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We should.
我们应该。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
But I feel like, I don't know.
但我感觉，我不知道。
You know what?
你知道吗？
I'm surrendering.
我投降了
Unless you have more shit to ask me, then I'm down.
除非你还有更多的事情要问我，否则我就失望了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, man.
哦，伙计。
In the language of meetings and other things, I think, for now-
我认为，用会议和其他事情的语言来说，目前——
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
we're complete.
我们完整了。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Thank you so much, man.
非常感谢你，伙计。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
That was so...
原来如此...
I feel good.
我感觉很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I feel good, too.
我也感觉很好。
Very grateful.
非常感谢。
Thank you.
谢谢你。
David Choe:
大卫·崔：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with David Choe.
感谢您参加今天与 David Choe 的讨论。
To learn more about him and his work, please see the links in the show note captions.
要了解有关他和他的作品的更多信息，请参阅演出注释标题中的链接。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的关注按钮来关注播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。
And you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.
您现在可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the "Huberman Lab" podcast- Please put those in the comment section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客、嘉宾或主题有意见，希望我为“Huberman Lab”播客考虑 - 请将这些内容放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience, and it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这是我花了五年多时间编写的一本书，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验，涵盖了从睡眠到运动到压力控制的各个方面的方案，以及与注意力和动机相关的方案，当然，我还为所包含的方案提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There you can find links to various vendors.
在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." And if you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab。
So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。
Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
同样，所有社交媒体平台上都是 Huberman Lab。
And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.
我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。
All of that is available completely zero cost.
所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter, and enter your email.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的“菜单”选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件即可。
And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with David Cho.
再次感谢您参加今天与 David Cho 的讨论。
And last, but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但同样重要的是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。