Transform Your Metabolic Health & Longevity by Knowing Your Unique Biology | Dr. Michael Snyder
Andrew Huberman: Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
Andrew Huberman：欢迎来到 Huberman 实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
Andrew Huberman: I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，我是斯坦福大学医学院的神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Michael Snyder.
今天我的嘉宾是迈克尔·斯奈德。
Michael Snyder is a professor of genetics at Stanford University School of Medicine.
迈克尔·斯奈德是斯坦福大学医学院的遗传学教授。
His laboratory focuses on how different people respond differently to different types of food and health interventions.
他的实验室专注于不同的人对不同类型的食物和健康干预措施的不同反应。
Andrew Huberman: And his overall goal is to figure out how different genes and proteins that different people express impact people's immune system function, reaction to different foods and diets, blood sugar regulation, immune system, and longevity.
Andrew Huberman：他的总体目标是弄清楚不同人表达的不同基因和蛋白质如何影响人们的免疫系统功能、对不同食物和饮食的反应、血糖调节、免疫系统和寿命。
Today's episode could basically be summarized as, as you suspected, not everybody responds the same way to the same behavioral, drug, supplement, or other treatment designed to improve health span and life span.
今天的事件基本上可以概括为，正如您所怀疑的那样，并不是每个人对相同的行为、药物、补充剂或其他旨在改善健康寿命和寿命的治疗都有相同的反应。
Andrew Huberman: For instance, the Snyder Laboratory published a paper earlier this year showing that different people spike insulin in response to different types of carbohydrates.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：例如，斯奈德实验室今年早些时候发表的一篇论文表明，不同的人会因摄入不同类型的碳水化合物而增加胰岛素水平。
Things like the glycemic index, which we may be familiar with, because they are essentially a readout of how much a given food impacts blood sugar, depends on who you are.
像我们可能熟悉的血糖指数这样的东西，因为它们本质上是一种特定食物对血糖影响程度的读数，取决于你是谁。
They identified so-called potato spikers, they literally referred to them as potato spikers in this paper, versus grape spikers, people whose insulin spikes in response to potatoes but not grapes and vice versa.
他们确定了所谓的马铃薯加标者，在本文中他们将其字面意思称为马铃薯加标者，而不是葡萄加标者，即胰岛素对土豆而不是葡萄有反应的人，反之亦然。
Andrew Huberman: And while this might seem kind of silly or trivial or micro-slicing, the identification of these different sub-types of people in the general population who respond differently to different types of foods is extremely important.
安德鲁·休伯曼：虽然这看起来有点愚蠢、微不足道或微切，但识别普通人群中对不同类型食物有不同反应的不同亚型是极其重要的。
Because I think most all of us are getting a little bit tired of all these discussions about carbohydrates are good, carbohydrates are bad, these carbohydrates are good, these carbohydrates are bad, and on and on.
因为我认为我们大多数人都对所有这些关于碳水化合物是好的、碳水化合物是坏的、这些碳水化合物是好的、这些碳水化合物是坏的等等的讨论感到有点厌倦。
Turns out it depends on which genes and which proteins you make.
事实证明，这取决于你制造的基因和蛋白质。
In other words, individual variability matters.
换句话说，个体差异很重要。
Andrew Huberman: We talk about that individual variability in the context of nutrition, also in the context of fiber.
Andrew Huberman：我们讨论营养方面的个体差异，以及纤维方面的个体差异。
It turns out that fiber is something that people generally believe is good for your health.
事实证明，人们普遍认为纤维对健康有益。
I certainly believe that.
我当然相信这一点。
Well, different types of fibers impact people differently.
嗯，不同类型的纤维对人的影响不同。
Some people experience systemic inflammation of their brain and body when they eat certain types of fibers.
有些人在食用某些类型的纤维时会出现大脑和身体的全身炎症。
That's bad.
那很糟糕。
Other people experience systematic decreases in inflammation when they eat certain types of fibers.
其他人在食用某些类型的纤维时会经历系统性的炎症减少。
Andrew Huberman: The key is to identify which category you're in, and therefore which fibers to eat.
Andrew Huberman：关键是要确定您属于哪一类，从而确定要吃哪些纤维。
And as it turns out, different foods have different fiber types.
事实证明，不同的食物具有不同的纤维类型。
So, it's tractable.
所以，它很容易处理。
There are things you can do about it.
您可以采取一些措施来解决这个问题。
We also talk about GLP-1 drugs and how those impact longevity.
我们还讨论 GLP-1 药物以及它们如何影响寿命。
This is something that's very controversial and very timely right now.
这是目前非常有争议且非常及时的事情。
And we discuss how different psychological interventions, yes, the Snyder Lab has even looked at how different psychological interventions impact the genes you make, and the proteins you make, and their effect on health span and life span.
我们讨论不同的心理干预措施，是的，斯奈德实验室甚至研究了不同的心理干预措施如何影响你制造的基因和你制造的蛋白质，以及它们对健康寿命和寿命的影响。
Andrew Huberman: So, today's discussion is sure to change your mind about a lot of things related to nutrition, and fitness, and medicine.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，今天的讨论肯定会改变您对许多与营养、健身和医学相关的事情的看法。
However, I promise that thanks to Michael Snyder, it will not confuse you.
然而，我保证，感谢迈克尔·斯奈德，它不会让你感到困惑。
In fact, it will clarify many things that perhaps before the episode were confusing to you and many other people.
事实上，它会澄清许多在这一集之前可能让你和其他许多人感到困惑的事情。
Dr. Snyder's laboratory is recognized for doing extremely rigorous analyses of the genes and proteins that can explain individual variability, and what people should do or not do in order to maximize their health and longevity.
斯奈德博士的实验室因对基因和蛋白质进行极其严格的分析而闻名，这些分析可以解释个体差异以及人们应该做什么或不做什么才能最大限度地提高健康和寿命。
Andrew Huberman: Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
Andrew Huberman：在我们开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.
为了与这个主题保持一致，今天的节目确实有赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Michael Snyder.
现在我与迈克尔·斯奈德进行讨论。
Michael Snyder, welcome.
迈克尔·斯奈德，欢迎。
Michael Snyder: Great to be here.
迈克尔·斯奈德：很高兴来到这里。
Andrew Huberman: I'd like to start by talking about glucose regulation in food and food choice, exercise, sleep, and how they all interact.
Andrew Huberman：我想首先谈谈食物中的葡萄糖调节和食物选择、锻炼、睡眠以及它们如何相互作用。
But I want to make it very simple to start.
但我想让它变得非常简单。
How is it that what we eat impacts our glucose response?
我们吃的东西是如何影响我们的葡萄糖反应的？
And maybe you could tell us a little bit about what a healthy glucose response looks like.
也许您可以告诉我们一些关于健康的葡萄糖反应是什么样子的。
Because by most people's view, any inflection in blood glucose is a quote unquote spike.
因为在大多数人看来，血糖的任何变化都是一次尖峰。
Andrew Huberman: But what are the sorts of spikes that matter for health, and what are the sorts of spikes in blood glucose, or what are called glucose excursions that, you know, you go, "Okay, well, that's a normal response to eating some food, and then it goes back down to baseline." I think this is especially important nowadays with all the interest in metabolic health, in how particular types of foods like processed foods are indeed far worse for us, and on and on.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但是对健康重要的峰值是什么，血糖峰值是什么，或者所谓的葡萄糖偏移，你知道，你会说，“好吧，好吧，这是吃一些食物的正常反应，然后它又回到基线。”我认为这一点在当今尤其重要，因为人们对代谢健康、加工食品等特定类型的食品确实对我们来说更糟糕等等感兴趣。
So, if you could just give us your view and understanding of glucose excursions.
那么，您能否向我们提供您对血糖波动的看法和理解。
What they mean, when they're good, when they're bad.
他们的意思是什么，当他们好的时候，当他们坏的时候。
Michael Snyder: Well, I would say that high, long, prolonged spikes is obviously pretty bad.
迈克尔·斯奈德：嗯，我想说，高、长、长时间的峰值显然是相当糟糕的。
But certain things, like if you eat a grape, grape's pretty loaded with sugar, but it's a pretty transient spike.
但某些事情，比如如果你吃一颗葡萄，葡萄中的糖分含量很高，但这是一个非常短暂的峰值。
It'll go up.
它会上涨。
And so that would be a transient one, actually when you do strength training, for example, for exercise, you break down glucagon, which is a polymer of sugar that you break down, gives you energy.
所以这将是一个短暂的过程，实际上当你进行力量训练时，例如，为了锻炼，你会分解胰高血糖素，它是你分解的一种糖聚合物，为你提供能量。
Michael Snyder: That's important for when you're doing exercise and training.
迈克尔·斯奈德：这对于你进行锻炼和训练时很重要。
And that will give a glucose spike.
这会导致血糖升高。
I get a glucose spike every morning when I weight train.
每天早上进行举重训练时，我的血糖都会升高。
So that would be a normal healthy one, but it's transient.
所以这将是一种正常的健康状况，但它是短暂的。
It goes away pretty quickly.
它消失得很快。
Andrew Huberman: What's quickly?
安德鲁·休伯曼：什么是快？
Michael Snyder: Within 30 minutes, maybe most 60 minutes.
Michael Snyder：30 分钟之内，也许最多 60 分钟。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: Now, I'm a special case.
迈克尔·斯奈德：现在，我是一个特例。
I'm a type 2 diabetic, so my spikes go higher and longer than most people.
我是一名 2 型糖尿病患者，因此我的峰值比大多数人更高、更长。
So yeah, mine are not good spikes, but we can get into that.
所以，是的，我的钉鞋不是很好，但我们可以解决这个问题。
So, what is a good spike?
那么，什么是好的秒杀呢？
Well, the calibration people mostly uses time and range.
那么，校准人员主要使用的是时间和范围。
It's a simple metric, meaning if you're a healthy person, your glucose is normally, for most people, around 90.
这是一个简单的指标，意味着如果您是一个健康的人，对于大多数人来说，您的血糖通常在 90 左右。
And if you're off, you will go higher than that.
如果你离开了，你会走得更高。
For most people, you want to keep your glucose between 70 and 140 if you're healthy.
对于大多数人来说，如果您身体健康，您希望将血糖保持在 70 到 140 之间。
For diabetics, they say try and keep it between 70 and 180.
对于糖尿病患者，他们建议尽量将其保持在 70 至 180 之间。
And that is what people try to do.
这就是人们试图做的。
And most healthy people, it's pretty easy.
对于大多数健康的人来说，这很容易。
And I think one of the things we've done, you've heard about continuous glucose monitors, these devices, and I'm wearing one, and some of your staff, I know, are wearing them as well.
我认为我们所做的事情之一，你听说过连续血糖监测仪，这些设备，我戴着一个，我知道你的一些员工也戴着它们。
And they're over-the-counter now.
现在它们是非处方药。
Michael Snyder: You put these on your arm and they measure your glucose every five minutes so you can see exactly what's going on.
迈克尔·斯奈德：你把它们戴在手臂上，它们每五分钟测量一次你的血糖，这样你就可以准确地看到发生了什么。
And so, we put them on so-called normal people, pre-diabetics, and some diabetics.
因此，我们将它们放在所谓的正常人、糖尿病前期患者和一些糖尿病患者身上。
It was already well-known diabetics will spike their glucose through the roof, too high for too long.
众所周知，糖尿病患者的血糖会飙升至最高水平，持续时间太长。
And then the people devise, especially Type 1s, control mechanisms for releasing insulin and controlling all of that.
然后人们设计出释放胰岛素并控制所有这些的控制机制，尤其是 1 型。
Michael Snyder: But for the average person, that wasn't so well-known at the time we were doing this, and it was a bit of a surprise to see that a lot of people...
迈克尔·斯奈德：但对于普通人来说，我们做这件事的时候还没有那么出名，看到很多人......
Some did have very good glucose control, but some pre-diabetics were what we call moderate spikers.
有些人的血糖控制确实很好，但有些糖尿病前期患者就是我们所说的中等峰值。
We came up and named glucotypes as, it's a way of quantifying this in a...
我们提出并将糖型命名为，这是一种量化这一点的方法......
And then some people were spiking just as bad as diabetics and had no idea, and so it was a way of revealing what was going on.
然后有些人的病情就像糖尿病患者一样严重，但他们对此一无所知，所以这是揭示正在发生的事情的一种方式。
So, it's recommended that you try to stay in this 70 to 140, but it is a bit arbitrary.
所以，建议你尽量保持在70到140这个范围内，但这有点随意。
But it's not a bad rule of thumb to, to work by for the average person.
但对于普通人来说，这并不是一个糟糕的经验法则。
But again, some people have very, very good glucose control, some are moderate spikers, and some are severe.
但同样，有些人的血糖控制非常非常好，有些人是中等峰值，有些人是严重的。
And it's pretty clear that excessive spiking, especially in diabetics, is associated with cardiovascular disease and other things.
很明显，过度服用，尤其是糖尿病患者，与心血管疾病和其他疾病有关。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: There's some pretty strong papers out there on that.
迈克尔·斯奈德：关于这一点，有一些非常有力的论文。
So, you do want to keep it under control, and there's a very strong correlation between this time and range measurement I mentioned, and something called hemoglobin A1C.
所以，你确实想控制住它，而且我提到的这个时间和范围测量以及一种叫做血红蛋白 A1C 的东西之间有很强的相关性。
That's a measure of your steady-state glucose.
这是稳态血糖的衡量标准。
And so, if you have high hemoglobin A1C, that's typically how we classify people for diabetes and pre-diabetes.
因此，如果您的 A1C 血红蛋白较高，这通常就是我们对糖尿病和糖尿病前期患者进行分类的方式。
If you're over 6'5" or over, you're classified as diabetic.
如果您的身高超过 6 英尺 5 英寸或以上，则您被归类为糖尿病患者。
If you're 5'7" to 6'4", you're pre-diabetic.
如果您身高 5 英尺 7 英寸至 6 英尺 4 英寸，则您处于糖尿病前期。
Michael Snyder: And if you're under that, you're so-called normal.
迈克尔·斯奈德：如果你处于这种状态，那么你就是所谓的正常人。
And this time and range will actually correlate very, very well with that.
这个时间和范围实际上与此非常非常相关。
So, it's a surrogate measure for that.
所以，这是一个替代措施。
But it's actually pretty cool because you can precisely see what's going on in real time, unlike a hemoglobin A1C measurement, which you get periodically.
但它实际上非常酷，因为您可以精确地实时看到正在发生的情况，这与您定期进行的血红蛋白 A1C 测量不同。
Michael Snyder: So if you want to dig into that further, I would say that, what's cool about these CGMs is that you wear them, like I'm wearing one now, you can wear them, for about 14 days, depends on the particular device, and you see exactly what foods do what to you.
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以，如果你想进一步深入研究，我想说的是，这些 CGM 的酷之处在于你可以佩戴它们，就像我现在佩戴的那样，你可以佩戴它们大约 14 天，具体取决于特定的设备，并且你可以准确地看到哪些食物对你有什么作用。
And we're all different.
我们都是不同的。
So some people spike to bananas, some to potatoes, some to pasta, some to white bread, some to brown bread.
所以有些人吃香蕉，有些人吃土豆，有些人吃意大利面，有些人吃白面包，有些人吃黑面包。
Michael Snyder: And so, this was shown by Aaron Siegel's lab at the Weizmann, and our lab had found something similar.
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以，这是由亚伦·西格尔在魏茨曼的实验室展示的，我们的实验室也发现了类似的东西。
And it's very personal.
而且它非常个性化。
And so we've been spending a lot of time trying to dig into what's behind that.
因此，我们花了很多时间试图挖掘其背后的原因。
Andrew Huberman: So different people's glucose spiked to different foods.
Andrew Huberman：所以不同的人吃不同的食物时血糖会升高。
It's hard to predict on the basis of something like a chart of glycemic index, for instance.
例如，很难根据血糖指数图表之类的东西来预测。
So if I understand correctly, and I have glanced at those papers, I might be able to eat mango with nothing else and my blood glucose doesn't go out of range, or at least not for very long, whereas somebody else might have a very big and prolonged spike in blood glucose to mango.
因此，如果我理解正确，并且我浏览了这些论文，我可能可以只吃芒果，而我的血糖不会超出范围，或者至少不会持续很长时间，而其他人的芒果血糖可能会出现非常大且持续的峰值。
Andrew Huberman: But maybe there are things they can eat that I can't eat, like I don't know, sourdough bread or something.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：但也许有些东西他们能吃而我不能吃，就像我不知道的那样，酸面包之类的。
By the way, I can eat sourdough bread.
顺便说一句，我可以吃酸面包。
But just by way of example.
但仅作为示例。
Michael Snyder: 100%.
迈克尔·斯奈德：100%。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And so really, the only way to know, as you're pointing out, is to measure.
Andrew Huberman：实际上，正如您所指出的，唯一了解的方法就是衡量。
I want to talk a lot about measurement today.
今天我想谈很多关于测量的事情。
Michael Snyder: All right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：好的。
Andrew Huberman: For those that are just listening, not watching, Mike is wearing many sensors.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：对于那些只是听而不是看的人来说，迈克戴着很多传感器。
How many sensors...
有多少个传感器...
You have got four watches on.
您戴了四块手表。
Michael Snyder: I have my four watches and my ring, and even my hearing aids are sensors, believe it or not.
迈克尔·斯奈德：不管你信不信，我有我的四块手表和戒指，甚至我的助听器都是传感器。
So they are for hearing, but...
所以它们是为了听，但是......
Andrew Huberman: Okay, we're going to get...
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的，我们会……
Andrew Huberman: We're going to get into all of that.
Andrew Huberman：我们将讨论所有这些。
Michael Snyder: All right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：好的。
Andrew Huberman: But maybe we could talk a little bit about some of the subjective experience of blood glucose excursions, both healthy and unhealthy.
Andrew Huberman：但也许我们可以谈谈血糖波动的一些主观体验，无论是健康的还是不健康的。
Michael Snyder: Okay.
迈克尔·斯奈德：好的。
Andrew Huberman: Most people are familiar with eating a big meal, like the cliche is the Thanksgiving meal after which you're tired, where you stuffed yourself with protein and carbohydrates and dessert, et cetera, maybe some alcohol too in some cases.
Andrew Huberman：大多数人都熟悉吃大餐，就像陈词滥调一样，感恩节大餐之后你会感到疲倦，你会用蛋白质、碳水化合物和甜点等填饱肚子，在某些情况下可能还会喝点酒。
But I think people are also familiar with eating a certain food.
但我认为人们也熟悉吃某种食物。
Andrew Huberman: Like for me lately, I'll have my bowl of oatmeal with some berries and my protein drink after I train, and I'm noticing with each successive year, I'm getting really sleepy after I eat this.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：就像我最近一样，训练后我会吃一碗燕麦片和一些浆果，然后喝蛋白质饮料，我注意到，连续一年，吃完这个后我真的很困。
And I've swapped out the oatmeal for a different carbohydrate recently, just some white rice, and I feel fine.
我最近把燕麦片换成了另一种碳水化合物，只是一些白米，我感觉很好。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Andrew Huberman: And I don't think this is my imagination.
Andrew Huberman：我认为这不是我的想象。
I mean, in one case, I want to take a nap afterwards.
我的意思是，在一种情况下，我想在之后小睡一会儿。
In the other case, I'm good to keep going, and I generally have a lot of energy.
在另一种情况下，我很好地继续前进，而且我通常有很多精力。
So, is what I just described atypical?
那么，我刚才描述的情况是非典型吗？
What are some subjective effects of high, high glucose spikes?
高血糖峰值有哪些主观影响？
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Michael Snyder: Yeah, I think so.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的，我想是的。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Well, certainly, sleepiness is one.
嗯，当然，困倦就是其中之一。
I can put myself to sleep with a piece of pizza.
我可以吃一块披萨让自己入睡。
I'm diabetic.
我患有糖尿病。
I'm an unusual diabetic.
我是一个不寻常的糖尿病患者。
We can talk about that too.
我们也可以谈谈这个。
And yeah, if I eat pizza, my glucose goes through the roof, and I will get sleepy.
是的，如果我吃披萨，我的血糖就会飙升，我就会犯困。
Andrew Huberman: So does that mean that you eat and you feel sleepy, or there's a period after you eat, because this is what I experience, where I feel very energized for a short while, and then it's almost like my vision gets a little blurry, and I feel kind of like I just want to curl up and take a nap even if I slept great the night before.
Andrew Huberman：这是否意味着你吃完饭后就会感到困，或者吃完饭后有一段时间，因为这就是我的经历，我在短时间内感到精力充沛，然后我的视力几乎变得有点模糊，我感觉有点像我只想蜷缩起来小睡一会儿，即使我前一天晚上睡得很好。
Is that a blood glucose response?
这是血糖反应吗？
Michael Snyder: I believe so.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我相信是这样。
I mean, there are multiple things that affect sleepiness, and you probably know this better than me since you've covered sleep more.
我的意思是，影响睡意的因素有很多，你可能比我更了解这一点，因为你对睡眠的报道更多。
But, yeah, that, like tryptophan, things like this can help induce sleep as well.
但是，是的，像色氨酸一样，这样的东西也可以帮助诱导睡眠。
But certainly, glucose, these large glucose spikes, I can say personally make me very, very sleepy.
但当然，葡萄糖，这些大的葡萄糖峰值，我个人可以说让我非常非常困。
Andrew Huberman: Hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Michael Snyder: And alcohol can make a lot of people sleepy too.
迈克尔·斯奈德：酒精也会让很多人昏昏欲睡。
But you're right.
但你是对的。
There can be a lag because that first little shot of glucose can be a stimulant.
可能会有一个滞后，因为第一滴葡萄糖可能是一种兴奋剂。
But, very soon, that shot can go very, very large of glucose.
但是，很快，那一针就会含有非常非常大量的葡萄糖。
And, at least for me, it makes me very, very sleepy.
而且，至少对我来说，这让我非常非常困。
So, I think it's very normal.
所以，我认为这是非常正常的。
Andrew Huberman: We've known for a long time that there are things that we can do to improve our sleep, and that includes things that we can take, things like magnesium threonate, theanine, chamomile extract, and glycine, along with lesser known things like saffron and valerian root.
Andrew Huberman：我们很早就知道我们可以采取一些措施来改善睡眠，其中包括我们可以服用的东西，例如苏糖酸镁、茶氨酸、洋甘菊提取物和甘氨酸，以及一些鲜为人知的东西，例如藏红花和缬草根。
These are all clinically supported ingredients that can help you fall asleep, stay asleep, and wake up feeling more refreshed.
这些都是经过临床支持的成分，可以帮助您入睡、保持睡眠状态，并且醒来时感觉更加神清气爽。
I'm excited to share that our longtime sponsor, AG1, just created a new product called AGZ, a nightly drink designed to help you get better sleep and have you wake up feeling super refreshed.
我很高兴与大家分享，我们的长期赞助商 AG1 刚刚创造了一款名为 AGZ 的新产品，这是一种夜间饮料，旨在帮助您获得更好的睡眠，让您醒来时感觉神清气爽。
Andrew Huberman: Over the past few years, I've worked with the team at AG1 to help create this new AGZ formula.
Andrew Huberman：在过去的几年里，我与 AG1 的团队合作，帮助创建了这个新的 AGZ 公式。
It has the best sleep-supporting compounds in exactly the right ratios in one easy-to-drink mix.
它在一种易于饮用的混合物中以完全正确的比例含有最好的睡眠支持化合物。
This removes all the complexity of trying to forge the vast landscape of supplements focused on sleep and figuring out the right dosages and which ones to take for you.
这消除了尝试打造专注于睡眠的补充剂的广阔前景以及确定正确剂量和适合您服用哪些补充剂的所有复杂性。
AGZ is, to my knowledge, the most comprehensive sleep supplement on the market.
据我所知，AGZ 是市场上最全面的睡眠补充剂。
Andrew Huberman: I take it 30 to 60 minutes before sleep, it's delicious by the way, and it dramatically increases both the quality and the depth of my sleep.
Andrew Huberman：我在睡前 30 到 60 分钟服用它，顺便说一句，它很美味，而且它极大地提高了我的睡眠质量和深度。
I know that both from my subjective experience of my sleep and because I track my sleep.
我知道这一点，既来自我对睡眠的主观体验，也因为我跟踪了我的睡眠。
I'm excited for everyone to try this new AGZ formulation and to enjoy the benefits of better sleep.
我很高兴每个人都能尝试这种新的 AGZ 配方并享受更好睡眠的好处。
AGZ is available in chocolate, chocolate mint, and mixed berry flavors.
AGZ 有巧克力、巧克力薄荷和混合浆果口味。
And as I mentioned before, they're all extremely delicious.
正如我之前提到的，它们都非常美味。
My favorite of the three has to be, I think, chocolate mint, but I really like them all.
我认为这三者中我最喜欢的是巧克力薄荷，但我真的很喜欢它们。
Andrew Huberman: If you'd like to try AGZ, go to drinkagz.com/huberman to get a special offer.
Andrew Huberman：如果您想尝试 AGZ，请访问 Drinkagz.com/huberman 获取特别优惠。
Again, that's drinkagz.com/huberman.
再说一遍，这是 Drinkagz.com/huberman。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Wealthfront.
今天的节目也是由 Wealthfront 为我们带来的。
I've been using Wealthfront for my savings and my investing for nearly a decade, and I absolutely love it.
近十年来，我一直使用 Wealthfront 进行储蓄和投资，我非常喜欢它。
At the start of every year, I set new goals, and one of my goals for 2025 is to focus on saving money.
每年年初，我都会设定新的目标，2025 年的目标之一就是专注于省钱。
Andrew Huberman: Since I have Wealthfront, I'll keep that savings in my Wealthfront cash account, where I'm able to earn 4% annual percentage yield on my deposits, and you can as well.
Andrew Huberman：由于我拥有 Wealthfront，我会将这笔储蓄保留在我的 Wealthfront 现金账户中，在那里我可以通过存款赚取 4% 的年收益率，您也可以。
With Wealthfront, you can earn 4% APY on your cash from partner banks until you're ready to either spend that money or invest it.
通过 Wealthfront，您可以从合作银行获得 4% 的现金年化收益，直到您准备好花掉这些钱或进行投资。
With Wealthfront, you also get free instant withdrawals to eligible accounts every day, even on weekends and holidays.
通过Wealthfront，您还可以每天免费即时提款到符合条件的账户，即使在周末和节假日也是如此。
The 4% APY is not a promotional rate, and there's no limit to what you can deposit and earn.
4% 年利率并非促销利率，您可以存款和赚取的金额没有限制。
Andrew Huberman: And you can even get protection for up to $8 million through FDIC insurance provided through Wealthfront's partner banks.
Andrew Huberman：您甚至可以通过 Wealthfront 合作银行提供的 FDIC 保险获得高达 800 万美元的保护。
Wealthfront gives you free instant withdrawals where it takes just minutes to transfer your money to eligible external accounts.
Wealthfront 为您提供免费即时提款，只需几分钟即可将您的资金转入符合条件的外部账户。
It also takes just minutes to transfer your cash from the cash account to any of Wealthfront's automated investment accounts when you're ready to invest.
当您准备好投资时，只需几分钟即可将现金从现金账户转移到 Wealthfront 的任何自动投资账户。
There are already a million people using Wealthfront to save more, earn more, and build long-term wealth.
已有一百万人使用 Wealthfront 来储蓄更多、赚取更多并建立长期财富。
Earn 4% APY on your cash today.
今天就用现金赚取 4% 年化收益。
Andrew Huberman: If you'd like to try Wealthfront, go to wealthfront.com/huberman to receive a free $50 bonus with a $500 deposit into your first cash account.
Andrew Huberman：如果您想尝试Wealthfront，请访问wealthfront.com/huberman，在您的第一个现金账户中存入500美元即可获得免费的50美元奖金。
That's wealthfront.com/huberman to get started now.
现在就开始吧：www.realityfront.com/huberman。
This has been a paid testimonial of Wealthfront.
这是 Wealthfront 的付费推荐。
Wealthfront Brokerage isn't a bank.
Wealthfront Brokerage 不是银行。
The APY is subject to change.
APY 可能会发生变化。
For more information, see the episode description.
有关更多信息，请参阅剧集描述。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, there was this idea that, if something is rather high on the glycemic index, meaning it spikes your blood sugar robustly, that by combining that food with another food or, let's say some fiber as opposed to fruit juice, you know, eating the whole fruit, which of course includes the fiber, at least in a different form, or adding some fat.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：是的，有这样的想法，如果某种东西的血糖指数相当高，这意味着它会大幅提高你的血糖，那么可以通过将该食物与另一种食物结合起来，或者，比如说一些纤维而不是果汁，你知道，吃整个水果，其中当然包括纤维，至少以不同的形式，或者添加一些脂肪。
You know, so I've tried doing this, adding a bit more fat to that meal, but in some cases, it still happens.
你知道，所以我尝试这样做，在这顿饭中添加更多的脂肪，但在某些情况下，这种情况仍然会发生。
It doesn't matter if you try and blunt the blood glucose response with, with fat or with fiber.
无论您尝试用脂肪还是纤维来减弱血糖反应，都没有关系。
You just find that you get that kind of like buzz and then crash.
你会发现你听到了类似的嗡嗡声，然后就崩溃了。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Andrew Huberman: And it's not the kind of crash where you can't do anything.
Andrew Huberman：这并不是那种你无能为力的崩溃。
It's actually more sinister than that.
其实比这更险恶。
It's more of a brain fog that then transitions into the desire to take a late morning nap, which, if you slept well the night before, you really shouldn't be feeling.
这更像是一种脑雾，然后转变为想要在早上小睡的欲望，如果你前一天晚上睡得很好，你真的不应该有这种感觉。
Michael Snyder: Well, you can mitigate that, of course, by doing a walk and try and burn off a little bit of that glucose.
迈克尔·斯奈德：嗯，当然，你可以通过散步并尝试燃烧掉一点葡萄糖来缓解这种情况。
We can get into that.
我们可以深入探讨这一点。
Andrew Huberman: Tell us about walks because we've talked a little bit about those on this podcast before, but what is the effect of a short walk and does it need to be a brisk walk or can it-
安德鲁·胡伯曼：告诉我们关于散步的事情，因为我们之前在这个播客上讨论过一些步行的事情，但是短距离步行的效果是什么？是否需要快步走，或者可以-
Michael Snyder: Yeah, I think brisk walks seem to be better.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的，我认为快走似乎更好。
There are studies from other people on that, a brisk walk for 15 minutes or 20 minutes after you eat will help suppress those glucose spikes.
其他人的研究表明，饭后快走 15 分钟或 20 分钟将有助于抑制血糖峰值。
And yeah, so there are in fact some of these companies that have set up around personalized management of glucose.
是的，实际上有些公司是围绕葡萄糖的个性化管理而建立的。
I'm involved with one called January AI, and there's others out there, too.
我参与了一个名为“January AI”的项目，还有其他项目。
Michael Snyder: They actually recommend that if you eat something that spikes your glucose, you should take a brisk walk, and that will suppress your spike, and they connect to actually teach you that.
迈克尔·斯奈德：他们实际上建议，如果你吃的东西会使你的血糖升高，你应该快步走，这会抑制你的升高，他们实际上会教你这一点。
And you can see it personally.
你可以亲自看到它。
And so one thing, we've done, for example, most people spike to white rice, believe it or not, it's high glycemic index, but glycemic is more personal than people give credit for.
因此，我们已经做了一件事，例如，大多数人都会吃白米饭，不管你信不信，它的血糖指数很高，但血糖指数比人们想象的更个人化。
Michael Snyder: Anyway, you will spike your glucose, but if you take a brisk 20-minute walk, you can just see that spike is much, much less.
Michael Snyder：无论如何，你的血糖都会升高，但如果你快步走 20 分钟，你就会发现血糖升高的幅度要小得多。
Andrew Huberman: And is that simply due to the low level muscle contractions associated with walking, are just pulling, they're just acting as a glucose scavenger?
安德鲁·胡伯曼：这仅仅是因为与行走相关的低水平肌肉收缩，只是拉动，它们只是充当葡萄糖清除剂吗？
Michael Snyder: That's what I assumed, yes, that you're burning it off.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我就是这么认为的，是的，你正在把它烧掉。
Andrew Huberman: Did you see the study out of, I forget the university in Texas.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你看过这项研究吗？我忘了德克萨斯州的大学了。
I think it might have been University of Houston, where they looked at people doing what they called soleus pushups.
我想可能是休斯顿大学，他们在那里观察人们做他们所谓的比目鱼肌俯卧撑。
Did you see this study?
你看过这个研究吗？
Michael Snyder: No, I haven't seen it.
迈克尔·斯奈德：不，我还没看到。
Andrew Huberman: This is wild.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这太疯狂了。
Michael Snyder: Tell me about it.
迈克尔·斯奈德：告诉我吧。
Andrew Huberman: So, they basically had subjects, there was more than one subject, of course, sit in a chair, and essentially do the equivalent of what gym goers would call a seated calf raise.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：所以，他们基本上有科目，当然，有不止一个科目，坐在椅子上，基本上相当于健身爱好者所说的坐式小腿抬高。
They called it a calf pushup, but all that nomenclature is kind of silly.
他们称之为小腿俯卧撑，但所有这些术语都有点愚蠢。
What it really is, is keeping your toes on the floor and lifting your heels.
实际上，是将脚趾放在地板上并抬起脚后跟。
It's like being a knee bouncer in class where we're all told we shouldn't do it.
这就像在课堂上当护膝员一样，我们都被告知不应该这样做。
It turns out the soleus, even though it's only 1% of the total body musculature, acts as more of a glucose sponge than other muscles in the body, which sort of makes sense given the walking thing we've been talking about.
事实证明，尽管比目鱼肌只占全身肌肉组织的 1%，但它比身体其他肌肉更像是一块葡萄糖海绵，考虑到我们一直在谈论的步行，这是有道理的。
Michael Snyder: Okay.
迈克尔·斯奈德：好的。
Michael Snyder: Oh, okay.
迈克尔·斯奈德：哦，好吧。
Michael Snyder: Interesting.
迈克尔·斯奈德：有趣。
Michael Snyder: Okay.
迈克尔·斯奈德：好的。
Michael Snyder: Yeah, yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的，是的。
Andrew Huberman: And now, people had to continue doing this, but, it was pretty effective, and I would prefer to see people go out and take a walk after they eat, but not all of us can get up and walk after a meal.
Andrew Huberman：现在，人们不得不继续这样做，但是，这非常有效，我更愿意看到人们饭后出去散步，但并不是所有人都能在饭后站起来散步。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: If you're on a plane, sure you can, you know, you don't want to fill the aisle because people need to go to the bathroom.
安德鲁·休伯曼：如果你在飞机上，当然可以，你知道，你不想挤满过道，因为人们需要去洗手间。
You know, it gets impractical.
你知道，这变得不切实际。
So, it's kind of interesting to think about what requirements are for low level muscular contraction.
因此，思考低水平肌肉收缩的要求是很有趣的。
Michael Snyder: Okay.
迈克尔·斯奈德：好的。
Andrew Huberman: And I would always want to see people exercising more as opposed to less.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我总是希望看到人们多锻炼而不是少锻炼。
But you could imagine, given the number of devices that you're wearing, that after you eat a meal, that you would have just a low level muscle stimulator just stimulating your soleus or something like that, just scavenge glucose.
但你可以想象，考虑到你所佩戴的设备数量，在你吃完饭后，你只会有一个低水平的肌肉刺激器，只是刺激你的比目鱼肌或类似的东西，只是清除葡萄糖。
Michael Snyder: You mean electrical or a physical one?
迈克尔·斯奈德：你是指电气的还是物理的？
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, electrical.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：是的，电气的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, electrical.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：是的，电气的。
Michael Snyder: Yeah, maybe.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的，也许吧。
Michael Snyder: I think there's a lot of benefits, as you know, from exercise per se.
迈克尔·斯奈德：正如你所知，我认为锻炼本身有很多好处。
Andrew Huberman: Sure.
安德鲁·休伯曼：当然。
Michael Snyder: You make all of these things called exerkines that have a lot of benefits in general.
迈克尔·斯奈德：你们制造的所有这些东西都被称为运动机，总的来说有很多好处。
So, I think exercise is probably broader than simply injecting the cells, so.
所以，我认为运动可能比简单地注射细胞更广泛，所以。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
I do too.
我也是。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Michael Snyder: But anyway, maybe what you say would be helpful for people.
迈克尔·斯奈德：但无论如何，也许你所说的会对人们有所帮助。
You know, what I do, and there are others who do this too, you've heard of this phrase exercise snacks, especially for people who sit all day, the idea of getting up used to be, well, get up and walk, some brief walk.
你知道，我所做的，还有其他人也这样做，你听说过“运动零食”这个短语，特别是对于整天坐着的人来说，起床的想法过去是，好吧，站起来散步，短暂的散步。
But now, there are some ideas, well, maybe get up and do more than walk.
但现在，有一些想法，好吧，也许站起来做更多的事情，而不仅仅是走路。
Maybe do some of the things.
也许做一些事情。
I hadn't heard the one you said, but maybe that's a better thing to do.
我没有听到你说的，但也许这是更好的做法。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Or air squats or something of that sort.
Andrew Huberman：或者空蹲之类的。
Michael Snyder: Yeah, exactly.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的，完全正确。
So we have people doing some squats.
所以我们有人做深蹲。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: Now, we're going to do a study like that and see what it does to their VO2 max and overall health measurements.
迈克尔·斯奈德：现在，我们将进行一项类似的研究，看看它对他们的最大摄氧量和整体健康测量有何影响。
So, I'm a big believer, yeah, sitting for eight hours is probably not good for you.
所以，我坚信，是的，坐八小时可能对你没有好处。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: In fact, there are plenty of studies that show that and these breaks are good for you.
迈克尔·斯奈德：事实上，有大量研究表明这些休息对你有好处。
Even walking's better than nothing.
即使走路也比什么都不做好。
Andrew Huberman: Do you use a standing desk or a treadmill under your desk?
Andrew Huberman：您使用站立式办公桌还是办公桌下的跑步机？
Michael Snyder: I don't do the treadmill.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我不使用跑步机。
I have tried the standing one.
我试过立式的。
I find I don't concentrate as well when I'm talking with people.
我发现与人交谈时我注意力不集中。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: So, I have to confess, I prefer to sit.
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以，我必须承认，我更喜欢坐着。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: So, I can be a little more engaged.
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以，我可以更加投入一点。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: I do have a lot of meetings.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我确实有很多会议。
So, for me that seems to be more effective.
所以，对我来说，这似乎更有效。
But it does mean I need to get up and take these breaks.
但这确实意味着我需要起床休息。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: And, so I haven't, but for other people, I know they like standing desks.
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以我没有，但对于其他人来说，我知道他们喜欢站立式办公桌。
I've heard from some people though, or it may not be overall as effective, so I don't know.
不过我听过一些人的意见，或者总体上可能没有那么有效，所以我不知道。
Andrew Huberman: Interesting.
安德鲁·休伯曼：有趣。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I think the exercise snacks are a terrific thing, the air squats, or even just pacing, these kinds of things.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：是的，我认为运动零食是一件很棒的事情，深蹲，甚至只是踱步，诸如此类的事情。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I think we underestimate the extent to which our evolutionary history drove a lot more movement every day than we currently measure.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为我们低估了我们的进化历史每天推动的运动量比我们目前测量的要多得多。
Michael Snyder: There's no way we sat eight hours a day, in ancient times, yes.
迈克尔·斯奈德：在古代，我们不可能一天坐八个小时，是的。
Andrew Huberman: Right.
安德鲁·休伯曼：对。
Michael Snyder: I 100% agree.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我100%同意。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Michael Snyder: People had to be active.
迈克尔·斯奈德：人们必须积极主动。
They had to be active to gather their food and deal with the elements.
他们必须积极主动地收集食物并应对自然灾害。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: So these glucose excursions, if they're brief, not a problem.
Andrew Huberman：所以这些血糖波动，如果它们很短暂，就不是问题。
But if people are finding that certain foods or food combinations are making them feel sleepy afterwards, I do think that the glucose monitors are useful for parsing which foods are doing what.
但如果人们发现某些食物或食物组合让他们事后感到困倦，我确实认为血糖监测仪对于解析哪些食物正在做什么很有用。
I'd like to talk a little bit about meal timing and food timing.
我想谈谈进餐时间和食物时间。
Michael Snyder: Okay.
迈克尔·斯奈德：好的。
Michael Snyder: Sure.
迈克尔·斯奈德：当然。
Andrew Huberman: For many years, just by virtue of preference, I will hydrate, and I make sure to get electrolytes, water, and caffeine in the morning.
Andrew Huberman：多年来，只是出于个人喜好，我会补充水分，并确保在早上补充电解质、水和咖啡因。
Michael Snyder: Okay.
迈克尔·斯奈德：好的。
Andrew Huberman: And I try to exercise in the morning.
Andrew Huberman：我尝试在早上锻炼身体。
If I don't, I'll do it in the afternoon.
如果不做的话，我下午就做。
But generally, in the morning, and my first meal always lands somewhere around 11:00 AM or so, roughly, plus or minus an hour.
但一般来说，在早上，我的第一顿饭总是在上午 11:00 左右，大约前后一个小时。
Is there any evidence that introducing a period of fasting at one point in the day versus, say, later in the day, like having breakfast, lunch, and an early dinner, versus lunch, an afternoon snack, and a typical dinner of, between 6:30 and 8:30 PM, I think is pretty typical, at least for Americans, is better or worse for glucose control and general health?
是否有任何证据表明，在一天中的某个时间点禁食一段时间，比如在一天中的晚些时候，比如吃早餐、午餐和早晚餐，与我认为非常典型的下午 6:30 至 8:30 之间的午餐、下午点心和典型的晚餐相比，至少对于美国人来说，对于血糖控制和总体健康来说是更好还是更差？
I know your lab's been focused on I guess it's called intermittent fasting, but this time restricted feeding.
我知道你们的实验室一直专注于我猜这叫做间歇性禁食，但这次限制进食。
Michael Snyder: Okay.
迈克尔·斯奈德：好的。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Andrew Huberman: We're not talking about weight loss now.
Andrew Huberman：我们现在不是在谈论减肥。
I'm just talking about glucose control.
我只是在谈论血糖控制。
Michael Snyder: There's a lot to unpack there.
迈克尔·斯奈德：有很多东西需要解开。
So, we have some studies where we put CGMs on people, smartwatches so we can track their activity.
因此，我们进行了一些研究，将动态监测仪放在人们的智能手表上，这样我们就可以跟踪他们的活动。
They did food logging and exercise logging as well, tracked them in incredible detail.
他们还进行了食物记录和运动记录，并以令人难以置信的细节进行了跟踪。
And they were also very well phenotyped for their glucose dysregulation.
而且他们的葡萄糖失调也有很好的表型。
And we should probably talk about that a little bit about muscle insulin resistance, beta cell defects, things like that.
我们或许应该谈谈肌肉胰岛素抵抗、β细胞缺陷等问题。
Michael Snyder: So, we were trying to relate what this glucose dysregulations of phenotype with their lifestyle, and not just their lifestyle, what they did, but when they did it.
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以，我们试图将这种葡萄糖表型失调与他们的生活方式联系起来，不仅仅是他们的生活方式，他们做了什么，还有他们何时做。
And what we found is that, first of all, some simple things already known is that, if you have your bigger meal first thing in the morning, you generally have lower glucose and not later at night.
我们发现，首先，一些已知的简单事情是，如果您早上第一件事就是吃大餐，那么您的血糖通常会较低，而不是晚上。
Michael Snyder: So people had their biggest meal, their biggest energy consumption later in the day, it was dinner, which is awkward socially because that's when most of us have our big meal, or many of us do.
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以人们在当天晚些时候吃了他们最丰盛的一餐，他们最大的能量消耗，那就是晚餐，这在社交上很尴尬，因为那是我们大多数人吃大餐的时候，或者我们中的许多人都这样做。
Those folks will have a higher glucose, and starchy vegetables is well known.
这些人的血糖水平较高，而淀粉类蔬菜是众所周知的。
Those folks have higher glucose.
这些人的血糖较高。
But interesting, people who ate a lot of fruits as their major source of carbs had lower.
但有趣的是，吃大量水果作为碳水化合物主要来源的人的碳水化合物含量较低。
That's because of the fiber that's in there that helps them.
那是因为里面的纤维对它们有帮助。
Turns out most people don't get enough sleep.
事实证明，大多数人睡眠不足。
And so those who slept longer actually had lower glucose.
因此，睡眠时间较长的人的血糖实际上较低。
But some of the things we could tease out were when should you exercise?
但我们可以弄清楚的一些事情是你应该什么时候锻炼？
If you look at the party line out there from various studies, well, you should exercise in the afternoon to get your best benefit.
如果你看看各种研究得出的结论，你应该在下午锻炼以获得最佳效果。
But we found that that depends on the form of dysregulation you have.
但我们发现这取决于您的失调形式。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: If you're muscle insulin resistant, you actually get better benefit by exercising in the morning for glucose the next day.
迈克尔·斯奈德（Michael Snyder）：如果您存在肌肉胰岛素抵抗，那么第二天早上锻炼以获得葡萄糖实际上会获得更好的益处。
Andrew Huberman: If you're muscle insulin resistant.
Andrew Huberman：如果你有肌肉胰岛素抵抗。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
Michael Snyder: So, to unpack that a little bit, um, so you probably know that you eat something, you get glucose if it's sugary, and your insulin obviously, you know, helps control that, stimulates your cells to take that up.
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以，稍微解释一下，嗯，所以你可能知道你吃了一些东西，如果它是含糖的，你会得到葡萄糖，而你的胰岛素显然有助于控制它，刺激你的细胞吸收它。
And if you're insulin resistant, especially muscle insulin, muscle is a major consumer of glucose, means you're not taking up your glucose right.
如果您有胰岛素抵抗，尤其是肌肉胰岛素抵抗，肌肉是葡萄糖的主要消耗者，意味着您没有正确吸收葡萄糖。
So, you're insulin resistant and don't take up glucose, and you wind up with high glucose spikes.
所以，你有胰岛素抵抗并且不吸收葡萄糖，最终你会出现高血糖峰值。
Michael Snyder: But there are other forms of diabetes, so to break this down, or glucose dysregulation, there are people who don't make insulin early in life, that would be called type 1.
迈克尔·斯奈德：但是还有其他形式的糖尿病，所以为了解决这种问题，或者葡萄糖失调，有些人在生命早期不产生胰岛素，这被称为 1 型。
You can still become insulin deficient and making insulin later in life for type 2.
您仍然可能会出现胰岛素缺乏，并在以后的生活中为 2 型胰岛素分泌胰岛素。
But, you can also have what are called beta cell defects.
但是，您也可能患有所谓的β细胞缺陷。
Michael Snyder: So insulin's produced by your pancreas, your beta cells, and I myself am type 2 diabetic, I have a beta cell defect, took me a while to figure that out, meaning I make insulin fine, my cells respond, but I don't release it from the pancreas.
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以胰岛素是由你的胰腺、你的β细胞产生的，我自己是2型糖尿病患者，我有β细胞缺陷，我花了一段时间才弄清楚这一点，这意味着我使胰岛素很好，我的细胞做出反应，但我不会从胰腺释放它。
And then, there's things called hepatic insulin resistance, so your liver is insulin resistant and other forms as well, fat insulin resistance as well.
然后，有一种叫做肝脏胰岛素抵抗的东西，所以你的肝脏有胰岛素抵抗，还有其他形式的脂肪胰岛素抵抗。
So we've now gotten into dividing up diabetes.
所以我们现在开始划分糖尿病。
Michael Snyder: So basically, classically group people into type 1, which is 10% of people, or type 2, which is the other 90% of diabetics.
Michael Snyder：基本上，传统上将人们分为 1 型，即 10% 的人，或 2 型，即另外 90% 的糖尿病患者。
Well, it turns out that's a really broad category, that can easily be subdivided into what we call sub phenotypes, these different forms of glucose dysregulation, and we think that's a big deal because it affects the drugs you take.
事实证明，这是一个非常广泛的类别，可以很容易地细分为我们所说的亚表型，即这些不同形式的葡萄糖失调，我们认为这很重要，因为它会影响您服用的药物。
Michael Snyder: So, for example, I am a beta cell defect and I didn't respond, I went through exercise, used to be a runner, and I shifted to weight training about, it'll almost be nine years soon, with the idea of building muscle mass, which failed miserably.
迈克尔·斯奈德：举个例子，我是一个β细胞缺陷，我没有反应，我进行了锻炼，曾经是一名跑步者，然后我转向重量训练，很快就快九年了，我的想法是增强肌肉质量，但结果惨败。
Michael Snyder: My glucose was gradually going up, so I shifted to weight training, I gained 10 pounds of muscle mass, I do whole body MRI, 20 of them the last eight or nine years, and I basically did gain 10 pounds of muscle mass, had no effect on my glucose control.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我的血糖逐渐上升，所以我转向重量训练，我增加了10磅的肌肉质量，我做了全身MRI，其中20个是过去八九年的，我基本上确实增加了10磅的肌肉质量，对我的血糖控制没有影响。
And the reason for that, was that I'm not muscle insulin resistant, I'm a beta cell defect.
原因是我没有肌肉胰岛素抵抗，我是β细胞缺陷。
So, I can gain as much muscle as I want, it's not going to help me release insulin from my pancreas.
所以，我可以获得尽可能多的肌肉，但它不会帮助我从胰腺中释放胰岛素。
Michael Snyder: So knowing your subphenotype is a big deal, but then I respond to certain drug repaglinide that actually promotes that release.
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以了解你的亚表型是一件大事，但随后我会对某些实际上促进这种释放的药物瑞格列奈做出反应。
So, knowing your subphenotype determines your drugs, but it also turns out this whole lifestyle thing I mentioned earlier is a big deal in coming back to some of the food stuff.
所以，了解你的亚表型决定了你的药物，但事实证明我之前提到的整个生活方式对于回到某些食物来说是一件大事。
So we found that if you're basically insulin resistant, muscle insulin resistant, you will spike to potatoes and pasta, but not if you're insulin sensitive.
因此我们发现，如果您基本上存在胰岛素抵抗、肌肉胰岛素抵抗，您就会大量食用土豆和面食，但如果您对胰岛素敏感，则不会。
Michael Snyder: And if you have beta cell defect, you'll also spike to potatoes.
迈克尔·斯奈德：如果你有β细胞缺陷，你也会吃土豆。
So you actually, you can subphenotype people according to what their glucose dysregulation is, and that affects how you'll react to foods.
所以实际上，你可以根据人们的血糖失调情况对他们进行亚表型分类，这会影响你对食物的反应。
And so then the obvious thing to do is modify your eating behavior on those foods so that you can basically live a healthier life is the idea.
因此，显而易见的事情就是改变你对这些食物的饮食行为，这样你基本上就能过上更健康的生活。
And so how are you going to subphenotype?
那么你将如何进行亚表型分析呢？
Well, the way we do it now is super expensive.
嗯，我们现在的做法非常昂贵。
Michael Snyder: We do these gold standard tests, take several hours, hundreds if not thousands of dollars, depends how you do it.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我们进行这些黄金标准测试，需要几个小时，数百甚至数千美元，取决于你如何做。
We believe it or not, can do it just from a simple glucose curve.
不管你信不信，只需一条简单的葡萄糖曲线就可以做到这一点。
So, you may or not realize that when you put one of these glucose monitors on you, and you drink a shot of glucose, you'll have a curve, and that shape is different for different people, and that depends on their subphenotype.
因此，您可能或没有意识到，当您戴上这些血糖监测仪并喝下一杯葡萄糖时，您会出现一条曲线，并且该曲线对于不同的人来说是不同的，这取决于他们的亚表型。
Andrew Huberman: Hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Michael Snyder: So meaning, if your muscle insulin resistant, you'll have a certain shape, and if your beta cell, it's a different shape, and if you're a combination of things, and there are other factors by the way that play in here, like your microbiome, the microbes in your gut all play in this.
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以意思是，如果你的肌肉有胰岛素抵抗，你就会有一定的形状，如果你的β细胞，它会有不同的形状，如果你是多种因素的组合，还有其他因素在这里发挥作用，比如你的微生物组，你肠道中的微生物都在其中发挥作用。
Michael Snyder: And so they basically affect the shape of your curve, and now we're not there yet, but we're good for some of these, like for muscle insulin resistant, we can quite accurately predict whether you're muscle insulin resistant just from the shape of that glucose curve, which you can get now from an over-the-counter purchase at, at a drug store.
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以它们基本上会影响你的曲线的形状，现在我们还没有做到这一点，但我们对其中的一些方面很擅长，比如肌肉胰岛素抵抗，我们可以通过葡萄糖曲线的形状相当准确地预测你是否有肌肉胰岛素抵抗，你现在可以从药店的非处方药购买得到。
Andrew Huberman: Super interesting.
安德鲁·休伯曼：超级有趣。
There's a, as you mentioned, ton to unpack there.
正如您所提到的，那里有大量的东西需要解开。
I just want to make sure I understand a couple of the points you made, before we go forward.
在我们继续之前，我只是想确保我理解您提出的几点。
You said the vast number of papers that have explored ideal exercise timing point to the afternoon as the best time.
你说大量探讨理想锻炼时间的论文都指出下午是最佳时间。
Michael Snyder: Sure.
迈克尔·斯奈德：当然。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Andrew Huberman: I've seen those papers also, and my takeaway from the kind of gestalt of those papers in my view is that if you're interested in performance, that the afternoon is better because your body's warm, body temperature tends to be appropriate for performance, whereas although some people wake up ready to go first thing in the morning, most people don't feel as energized first thing in the morning.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我也看过这些论文，在我看来，从这些论文的格式塔中得到的结论是，如果你对表演感兴趣，那么下午会更好，因为你的身体温暖，体温往往适合表演，而尽管有些人早上醒来准备做第一件事，但大多数人早上第一件事并不感觉精力充沛。
Some do, but most don't.
有些人这样做，但大多数人不这样做。
Andrew Huberman: But if I understand correctly, for many people, in particular people with muscle insulin resistance, doing resistance training would be preferable to doing cardiovascular training for blood glucose regulation, and doing that resistance training early in the day, it sounded like you were going to tell us that it sets a kind of a trend toward better glucose regulation throughout the day, but I don't want to lead the witness here.
Andrew Huberman：但如果我理解正确的话，对于很多人，特别是有肌肉胰岛素抵抗的人来说，进行阻力训练比进行血糖调节的心血管训练更好，并且在当天早些时候进行阻力训练，听起来你会告诉我们，它会在一天中形成一种更好的血糖调节趋势，但我不想在这里引导证人。
I want to make sure that, that's true before we conclude that.
在我们得出结论之前，我想确保这是真的。
Michael Snyder: Well, we haven't taken apart for that particular study the difference between resistance training and it's more a general activity measurement.
迈克尔·斯奈德：嗯，我们还没有针对这项特定研究来区分阻力训练和一般活动测量之间的差异。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: So people are more active in the morning, if their muscle insulin resistant, will have better glucose levels the next day.
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以人们在早上更加活跃，如果他们的肌肉有胰岛素抵抗，第二天就会有更好的血糖水平。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: So we haven't yet done resistance, but I'm very interested in this.
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以我们还没有做出抵抗，但我对此非常感兴趣。
In fact, we have a separate study around high intensity training running versus long distance running, and can be happy to talk about that, but that's still in progress.
事实上，我们有一项关于高强度训练跑步与长距离跑步的单独研究，并且很乐意谈论这一点，但这仍在进行中。
So, I wouldn't say we've totally done what you've gotten at, but we would like to dissect the resistance training versus a aerobic or endurance type of training.
所以，我不会说我们已经完全做到了你所做到的，但我们想剖析阻力训练与有氧或耐力类型的训练。
I mean, the bottom line is, of course exercising any time is better than not exercising at all.
我的意思是，底线是，当然，任何时候锻炼都比根本不锻炼要好。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Sure.
安德鲁·休伯曼：当然。
Michael Snyder: So I think we'd all agree with that.
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以我想我们都同意这一点。
But we do think you get better glucose benefits if you are muscle insulin resistant doing the morning.
但我们确实认为，如果您早上进行肌肉胰岛素抵抗，您会获得更好的血糖益处。
And I also do believe that, yeah, building your muscle mass will help with actually reducing muscle resistance.
我也确实相信，是的，增强肌肉质量将有助于实际减少肌肉阻力。
Andrew Huberman: Thank you for that clarification.
安德鲁·休伯曼：谢谢您的澄清。
You mentioned different types of diabetes.
您提到了不同类型的糖尿病。
So general categories are type one diabetes, these people don't make insulin.
所以一般类别是一型糖尿病，这些人不产生胰岛素。
They need to inject insulin or deliver insulin through a time release mechanism or something of that sort.
他们需要注射胰岛素或通过时间释放机制或类似机制输送胰岛素。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Andrew Huberman: Type two diabetes, I understand to be insulin insensitivity, which is bad.
Andrew Huberman：二型糖尿病，我理解是胰岛素不敏感，这很糟糕。
You want your cells to be sensitive to insulin, so that insulin can bring the glucose into those cells, so they can use them.
您希望您的细胞对胰岛素敏感，以便胰岛素可以将葡萄糖带入这些细胞，以便它们可以使用它们。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Andrew Huberman: You're now subdividing this type two diabetes, the insulin insensitivity into muscle insulin insensitive, as well as other tissues being insensitive.
Andrew Huberman：您现在将这种二型糖尿病（胰岛素不敏感）细分为肌肉胰岛素不敏感以及其他组织不敏感。
What percentage-
百分之多少——
Michael Snyder: But it's more than that, meaning there's a beta cell defect where you don't release insulin from your pancreas.
迈克尔·斯奈德：但事情还不止于此，这意味着存在β细胞缺陷，导致胰腺无法释放胰岛素。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: That's has nothing to do with insulin resistance.
迈克尔·斯奈德：这与胰岛素抵抗无关。
That's more a mechanistic thing.
这更是一个机械性的事情。
Now, why that defect exists isn't so clear.
现在，为什么存在这个缺陷还不太清楚。
Mike is kind of interesting, although we still don't fully understand it.
迈克有点有趣，尽管我们还没有完全理解他。
But then there's also incretin defects.
但肠促胰素也存在缺陷。
So, incretin are these GLPs that everybody's heard about.
所以，肠促胰岛素就是大家都听说过的 GLP。
Ozempic is a mimic of those and Mounjaro and things like that.
Ozempic 是这些和 Mounjaro 之类的模仿者。
And so there are people with defects that way.
所以有些人有这样的缺陷。
Michael Snyder: So we're all different, and we can now subtype that.
Michael Snyder：所以我们都是不同的，我们现在可以对其进行子类型化。
We can say, "This person's got mostly an incretin defect.
我们可以说，“这个人主要有肠促胰岛素缺陷。
This one's muscle resistance.
这是肌肉的抵抗力。
This is a beta cell defect." And some people are combinations of those.
这是β细胞缺陷。”有些人是这些的组合。
It's not pure one or the other.
这不是纯粹的其中之一。
So, we think actually the subtyping is a big deal because again it determines your lifestyle choices you might make to better control your glucose, and of course drug responses as well.
因此，我们认为实际上亚型很重要，因为它再次决定了您为更好地控制血糖而可能做出的生活方式选择，当然也决定了药物反应。
So, we think that's important.
所以，我们认为这很重要。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: We know that many, many people in the United States and elsewhere, sadly, are overweight or just clinically overweight.
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：遗憾的是，我们知道美国和其他地方有很多很多人超重或只是临床上超重。
And I think it's about 30% of people in the United States are clinically obese.
我认为大约 30% 的美国人患有临床肥胖。
When you talk about type 2 diabetes and these different sub-phenotypes, as you're referring to.
当您谈论 2 型糖尿病和这些不同的亚表型时，正如您所指的那样。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Andrew Huberman: What percentage of people in the United States do you think are type 2 diabetic that have some sort of either insulin insensitivity, and that's the reason versus, they're making plenty of insulin but they can't release it?
Andrew Huberman：您认为美国 2 型糖尿病患者中有多少人对胰岛素不敏感，这就是他们制造大量胰岛素但无法释放胰岛素的原因？
I mean what sorts of numbers are we talking about here?
我的意思是我们在这里谈论的是什么样的数字？
Because I think for listeners, they're probably thinking like, "Okay, like, as long as I don't eat too much sugar, I feel fine." Does that mean that they don't have type 2 diabetes?
因为我认为对于听众来说，他们可能会想，“好吧，只要我不吃太多糖，我就感觉很好。”这是否意味着他们没有患 2 型糖尿病？
Andrew Huberman: People who, perhaps are of a healthy weight, does that mean they don't have type 2 diabetes or any of these insulin management problems?
Andrew Huberman：体重可能健康的人，这是否意味着他们没有 2 型糖尿病或任何胰岛素管理问题？
It sounds like we don't know the real numbers.
听起来我们不知道真实的数字。
But if you were to guesstimate what the percentages are of people out there who have some issue with insulin management at a physiological level.
但如果你猜测一下在生理水平上存在胰岛素管理问题的人的百分比是多少。
Michael Snyder: Well, if you include beta cell defects as part of insulin management, then the number is probably very high.
迈克尔·斯奈德：嗯，如果将 β 细胞缺陷纳入胰岛素管理的一部分，那么这个数字可能会非常高。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm, yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯，是的。
Andrew Huberman: So like-
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以就像-
Michael Snyder: But I honestly don't know the answer.
迈克尔·斯奈德：但老实说我不知道答案。
I don't think we fully know the answer because people haven't done this sub-phenotyping like I've described.
我认为我们并不完全知道答案，因为人们还没有像我所描述的那样进行这种亚表型分析。
We don't know how many people have incretin defects.
我们不知道有多少人患有肠促胰岛素缺陷。
We are getting there with insulin resistance and such, but I don't think we're fully there.
我们正在实现胰岛素抵抗等目标，但我认为我们还没有完全实现这一目标。
But I want to correct something that you said.
但我想纠正你说的一些话。
I mean, it's very much the case when you see someone who's thin, you can't assume they're not diabetic.
我的意思是，当你看到一个瘦的人时，你不能认为他们没有患有糖尿病。
This is very common, especially in South Asians, to see thin diabetics.
这很常见，尤其是在南亚人中，看到瘦弱的糖尿病患者。
And I'm a good example.
我就是一个很好的例子。
No one would call me overweight, by any definition yet I'm a diabetic and I have a beta cell defect.
从任何定义来看，没有人会说我超重，但我是一名糖尿病患者，而且我有β细胞缺陷。
And I used to think a lot of people who are thin diabetics probably have beta cell defects, but it's not that simple.
我曾经认为很多瘦的糖尿病患者可能有β细胞缺陷，但事实并非那么简单。
It's some do and some don't.
有些做，有些不做。
Some are insulin resistant.
有些有胰岛素抵抗。
And then, there are other people, believe it or not, who are very obese by any clinical measure and what have you, and they have very good glucose control.
然后，还有其他人，不管你信不信，从任何临床指标来看，他们都非常肥胖，而你的血糖控制得很好。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: So, there are a lot of things we don't fully understand, and a lot of it probably does fits in this idea that this is not a simple process.
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以，有很多事情我们还没有完全理解，其中很多可能确实符合这个想法，即这不是一个简单的过程。
We have many organ systems involved in glucose control, your liver, your pancreas, your muscles we've mentioned, but even your brain is a major glucose consumer.
我们有许多器官系统涉及血糖控制，我们提到过您的肝脏、胰腺、肌肉，但甚至您的大脑也是主要的葡萄糖消耗者。
And so, we have all these different organ systems.
所以，我们有所有这些不同的器官系统。
Then on top of that, we have all these different biochemical pathways that are engaged as well.
除此之外，我们还参与了所有这些不同的生化途径。
Michael Snyder: We mentioned the insulin one, but there's incretin, which are these GLP things that promote insulin release, but they probably have other effects as well.
Michael Snyder：我们提到了胰岛素，但还有肠促胰素，这些 GLP 物质可以促进胰岛素释放，但它们可能还有其他作用。
I don't fully understand.
我不完全明白。
I don't think everyone does, all the effects of incretins.
我不认为每个人都这样做，肠促胰素的所有作用。
Their receptors are all over the place.
它们的受体遍布各处。
And in fact, some of these drugs you may have heard are actually now being touted as maybe anti-longevity drugs, because they seem to improve cognition and stuff.
事实上，您可能听说过的一些药物现在实际上被吹捧为可能的抗长寿药物，因为它们似乎可以改善认知能力等。
Now, whether that's tied to weight and things like that is less clear, but-
现在，这是否与体重之类的因素有关还不太清楚，但是-
Andrew Huberman: As anti-longevity drugs or as longevity drugs?
Andrew Huberman：作为抗长寿药还是作为长寿药？
Michael Snyder: As longevity drugs.
迈克尔·斯奈德：作为长寿药。
Sorry, thank you for that correction.
抱歉，谢谢您的更正。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Got it.
安德鲁·休伯曼：明白了。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Actually, just for fun.
其实只是为了好玩。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Let's explore for a moment some of the things that we've heard these GLP-1 drugs are effective for.
Andrew Huberman：让我们暂时探讨一下我们听说这些 GLP-1 药物有效的一些事情。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Certainly, for diabetics to better...
安德鲁·休伯曼：当然，为了让糖尿病患者更好地......
Type 2 diabetics to better control their blood glucose.
2型糖尿病患者可以更好地控制血糖。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
If I can intersect there?
如果我可以在那里相交吗？
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Michael Snyder: I am a type 2 diabet-- And they were great for me.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我是 2 型糖尿病患者——它们对我来说非常好。
My hemoglobin A1C got to 8.4, which it's not the highest but it's pretty high.
我的血红蛋白A1C达到了8.4，这不是最高的，但也相当高了。
And I went on the GLPs and it went down to 5.7.
我继续进行 GLP，结果下降到 5.7。
Andrew Huberman: Just like that?
安德鲁·休伯曼：就这样？
Michael Snyder: Pretty fast, yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：相当快，是的。
Andrew Huberman: Independent of weight loss?
Andrew Huberman：与减肥无关？
Michael Snyder: No. Well, initially, yes.
迈克尔·斯奈德：不。嗯，一开始是的。
It's a little complicated.
有点复杂。
I went on a lower dose thing called Farxiga, and that one dropped me down to about the 6.4, 6.5 level.
我服用了一种名为 Farxiga 的低剂量药物，它使我的剂量降至 6.4、6.5 左右。
And I didn't lose too much weight.
而且我的体重并没有减轻太多。
I did lose some.
我确实失去了一些。
And then I went on Mounjaro because I had some nausea effects.
然后我继续服用Mounjaro，因为我有一些恶心的反应。
That is a common side effect.
这是一种常见的副作用。
They were modest, but they were there.
他们很谦虚，但他们就在那里。
And so, I shifted to Mounjaro, which is a more potent version, and that dropped me down to 5.7.
因此，我转向了 Mounjaro，这是一个更强大的版本，这使我的分数下降到了 5.7。
And I did lose weight.
而且我确实减肥了。
Michael Snyder: I went from 144 to what I am now, 128, which I didn't like to be honest.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我从 144 变成了现在的 128，老实说我不喜欢这样。
But I can tell you my...
但我可以告诉你我的...
I mentioned I do whole body MRIs.
我提到过我做全身核磁共振检查。
I've done 20, as I said, over the last almost nine years.
正如我所说，在过去近九年里，我已经做了 20 次。
And I could just see my fat evaporated once I went on these.
一旦我穿上这些，我就能看到我的脂肪蒸发了。
I'm the coldest guy in the room now.
我现在是房间里最冷的人。
Andrew Huberman: But you maintain muscle mass because you do resistance training?
Andrew Huberman：但是你因为进行阻力训练而保持了肌肉质量？
Michael Snyder: Mostly, yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：大多数情况下，是的。
Andrew Huberman: How many days per week are you doing it?
Andrew Huberman：你每周有多少天这样做？
Michael Snyder: I do it every day.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我每天都这样做。
So, but I have light days because, you know, you can't strain yourself hard every day or that's a problem.
所以，但我的日子很轻松，因为你知道，你不能每天都让自己紧张，否则这是一个问题。
So, I have light days with more reps, and then heavier days for more of the strength stuff.
所以，我会在轻松的日子里进行更多的次数，然后在较重的日子里进行更多的力量训练。
And then I have a specialty day where I do, like, snatches and things to build my core, this sort of thing.
然后我有一个特别的日子，我会做抓举之类的事情来建立我的核心，诸如此类的事情。
And so, combination of those things.
所以，这些东西的组合。
And so, I do it every day, and the goal is to keep my muscle mass up.
所以，我每天都会这样做，目标是保持我的肌肉质量。
And I mostly did it because I do get measured a lot.
我这样做主要是因为我确实被测量了很多。
Michael Snyder: Although, it plummeted when I got in a bike accident and hurt my shoulder, and then certain exercises I couldn't do.
迈克尔·斯奈德：尽管如此，当我遭遇自行车事故并伤到肩膀时，我的体重急剧下降，然后我无法进行某些练习。
And so those things, as you might imagine, diminished.
因此，正如你想象的那样，这些东西减少了。
So, I did lose some muscle as a consequence of that.
所以，我确实因此失去了一些肌肉。
I have mostly built my strength back up, not entirely back to where it was.
我的力量已经基本恢复，但还没有完全恢复到原来的水平。
So, it's still there, but yeah, it's not 100%.
所以，它仍然存在，但是，它不是 100%。
And then there's a question on how much strength versus muscle mass is important.
还有一个问题是力量与肌肉质量的关系有多重要。
I don't have...
我没有...
Maybe you know the answer to that.
也许你知道答案。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Michael Snyder: But anyway, I do try to keep it up.
迈克尔·斯奈德：但无论如何，我确实努力坚持下去。
It's down a bit, in terms of muscle mass and a touch in strength as well.
就肌肉质量和力量而言，它有所下降。
Again, my hemoglobin A1C isn't too bad, but I don't like losing that much.
再说一次，我的 A1C 血红蛋白还不错，但我不喜欢损失那么多。
I'll be honest with you, I thought I looked a little gaunt.
老实说，我觉得我看起来有点憔悴。
So actually, am now backing off on the Mounjaro.
事实上，我现在正在放弃Mounjaro。
I don't do it every week like you're supposed to.
我不会像你应该的那样每周都这样做。
I'm on the lowest dose, so I'm a great responder there.
我服用的剂量是最低的，所以我是一个很好的反应者。
And by the way, and when you're getting these drug response, it turns out I'm metformin non-responder.
顺便说一句，当你得到这些药物反应时，事实证明我对二甲双胍无反应。
I did try that early on.
我很早就尝试过了。
Andrew Huberman: Oh, this is interesting.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哦，这很有趣。
So just to remind people, metformin and then the poor man's version of it is berberine, which is sold as a supplement, they basically do the same thing.
所以只是提醒人们，二甲双胍和穷人的版本是小檗碱，它作为补充剂出售，它们基本上做同样的事情。
They lower blood glucose.
它们可以降低血糖。
In fact, I will tell anyone that decides to take metformin or berberine that if you don't consume enough starchy carbohydrates with it, it can give you a brutal headache because you become hypoglycemic.
事实上，我会告诉任何决定服用二甲双胍或小檗碱的人，如果您没有摄入足够的淀粉类碳水化合物，它会给您带来剧烈的头痛，因为您会出现低血糖。
Michael Snyder: Oh, I didn't know that.
迈克尔·斯奈德：哦，我不知道。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Oh, it's really rough.
Andrew Huberman：哦，这真的很艰难。
Years ago, I used to take a little bit of berberine.
几年前，我曾经服用一点小檗碱。
I used to do these cheat days.
我曾经做过那些作弊的日子。
Michael Snyder: Okay.
迈克尔·斯奈德：好的。
Andrew Huberman: This is many years ago.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这是很多年前的事了。
I would eat really clean all week, and then I would, like a Saturday, I would just go for it, like anything you wanted.
我整个星期都会吃得非常干净，然后我会，就像星期六一样，我会去吃它，就像你想要的任何东西一样。
And I felt lousy.
我感觉很糟糕。
You'd have these energy, peaks and valleys, and then you just felt like by the end of the day, you're just like, "I'm done with food for the next 10 years." And of course, you fast the next day, you feel fine, and you go right back to it.
你会有这些能量、高峰和低谷，然后你会觉得，到一天结束时，你就会说，“我已经厌倦了未来 10 年的食物。”当然，第二天你禁食，你感觉很好，然后你就回去了。
But it wasn't healthy.
但这并不健康。
Andrew Huberman: But taking berberine, it was remarkable, because it would allow me and other people that recommended it to me, that you could just eat like an entire box of donuts and feel fine, because it would blunt your blood glucose response.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但是服用小檗碱是很了不起的，因为它可以让我和其他向我推荐它的人，你可以像吃一整盒甜甜圈一样吃，感觉很好，因为它会减弱你的血糖反应。
However, if you don't have enough glucose in your system, you become hypoglycemic, and you get these brutal headaches.
然而，如果你的系统中没有足够的葡萄糖，你就会出现低血糖，并且会感到剧烈的头痛。
So anyway, that's a little-
所以无论如何，这有点——
Michael Snyder: And this is becoming a big deal now, right?
迈克尔·斯奈德：现在这已经成为一件大事了，对吧？
Hypoglycemia is now being recognized as a big concern actually, so.
事实上，低血糖现在被认为是一个大问题。
And people are picking up a lot of this with the CGMs, so...
人们通过 CGM 发现了很多这样的情况，所以......
Andrew Huberman: Interesting.
安德鲁·休伯曼：有趣。
And this is because people are taking Mounjaro and taking other things that are dropping their blood glucose?
这是因为人们在服用 Mounjaro 的同时服用其他可以降低血糖的药物？
Michael Snyder: Yeah, and just it's probably been out there more than people realize in the first place that...
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的，而且它的存在可能比人们一开始意识到的要多……
And now with the CGMs, people realize, well, if you...
现在有了 CGM，人们意识到，好吧，如果你……
We talked about these glucose spikes.
我们讨论了这些葡萄糖峰值。
Well, it's very common if you get a really giant spike, you make a lot of insulin.
嗯，这是很常见的，如果你的胰岛素峰值非常大，你就会产生大量的胰岛素。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: So, the consequence is then you come down on the other side, and you actually get too low glucose from those spikes.
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以，结果就是你从另一边下来，实际上你从这些尖峰中得到的葡萄糖太低了。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Michael Snyder: So people are recognizing that, and that can...
迈克尔·斯奈德：人们正在认识到这一点，这可以......
People are now concerned about that.
人们现在对此感到担忧。
Certainly leads to fatigue.
肯定会导致疲劳。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Yeah, glucose troughs are definitely bad.
是的，血糖低谷肯定是不好的。
Michael Snyder: Right?
迈克尔·斯奈德：对吗？
Andrew Huberman: I don't do any sort of cheat day anymore.
Andrew Huberman：我不再做任何形式的作弊日了。
I actually, just a few years ago, I just quit eating bad food.
事实上，就在几年前，我刚刚戒掉了吃不好的食物。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I don't eat non, I don't eat-
安德鲁·休伯曼：我不吃东西，我不吃-
Michael Snyder: Well, that's got to be best, right?
迈克尔·斯奈德：嗯，那一定是最好的，对吧？
Andrew Huberman: Or I aim for 90% of my food intake to come from whole unprocessed foods.
Andrew Huberman：或者我的目标是 90% 的食物摄入量来自天然未加工食品。
Michael Snyder: Yeah, great.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的，太棒了。
Ultra- processed food, yeah.
超加工食品，是的。
Andrew Huberman: And then occasionally, a slice of pizza, or a bowl of ice cream or something.
Andrew Huberman：然后偶尔吃一片披萨，或者一碗冰淇淋什么的。
No big deal, right?
没什么大不了的，对吧？
Especially if you're exercising regularly.
特别是如果您经常锻炼的话。
But, so to go back to these drugs, these GLP-1 agonists, which is basically what they are.
但是，回到这些药物，这些 GLP-1 激动剂，它们基本上就是这样。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Andrew Huberman: And we had a guest on here, a Zachary Knight, who's at UCSF Howard Hughes investigator, who kind of shocked me by telling me that these drugs, all increase levels of GLP-1 in the blood and brain by about thousand fold.
Andrew Huberman：我们这里有一位客人，Zachary Knight，加州大学旧金山分校霍华德休斯调查员，他告诉我这些药物都会使血液和大脑中的 GLP-1 水平增加约一千倍，这让我有点震惊。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: That any less doesn't really have an effect on appetite, doesn't have an effect on the various things they're designed to do.
Andrew Huberman：少一点并不会真正影响食欲，也不会影响它们设计要做的各种事情。
So, these are massive supraphysiological increases in GLP-1 that people are achieving with these drugs.
因此，人们通过这些药物实现了 GLP-1 的超生理性大幅增加。
I know nowadays, some people are starting to get them from compounding pharmacies and microdosing them to great effect, actually.
我知道现在有些人开始从复合药店购买它们，并进行微剂量服用，实际上效果很好。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Michael Snyder: Okay.
迈克尔·斯奈德：好的。
Andrew Huberman: The big pharma companies don't like this, because it's sold at a fraction of the price, and you can get away with very low dosages.
Andrew Huberman：大型制药公司不喜欢这样，因为它的售价只是其一小部分，而且你可以用非常低的剂量来逃脱。
Michael Snyder: This is what I want to do, by the way.
迈克尔·斯奈德：顺便说一下，这就是我想做的。
I want to...
我想...
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, and no nausea.
Andrew Huberman：是的，而且没有恶心。
Andrew Huberman: And oftentimes, they're combined with some other things that, off the top of my head I can't remember.
Andrew Huberman：很多时候，它们与其他一些我一时记不起的东西结合在一起。
Oh, right, some of these more experimental peptides, like SS-31, which are designed to improve mitochondria.
哦，对了，其中一些更具实验性的肽，例如 SS-31，旨在改善线粒体。
And people are getting really spectacular effects from the microdosing of compounded, compound pharmacy, GLP-1 agonists.
人们从微剂量的复合药物 GLP-1 激动剂中获得了非常惊人的效果。
But even those are probably boosting GLP-1 several hundredfold.
但即使是这些也可能使 GLP-1 增强数百倍。
So none of this is like natural for the body.
所以这对身体来说都是不自然的。
And yet, there are other positive effects.
然而，还有其他积极影响。
Like, I've heard of a reduced craving of alcohol.
比如，我听说过对酒精的渴望减少了。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Michael Snyder: Mm-hmm.
迈克尔·斯奈德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: What are some others that you've heard of?
Andrew Huberman：您还听说过哪些其他品牌？
Michael Snyder: Cognition is a big one, and it's certainly something people worry about a lot as they get older.
迈克尔·斯奈德：认知是一个大问题，随着年龄的增长，这肯定是人们非常担心的事情。
It's almost becoming the number one thing people worry about as they get older, getting dementia, and related conditions.
随着年龄的增长，患上痴呆症和相关疾病，这几乎成为人们担心的第一件事。
So, and there's, you know, we'd like to see more studies out there, but there's some evidence that it may improve cognition.
所以，我们希望看到更多的研究，但有一些证据表明它可以改善认知。
Now, how much of that is intertwined with weight loss and things like that, I don't think has been totally deconvoluted.
现在，其中有多少与减肥之类的事情交织在一起，我认为还没有完全解开。
So, I think we need to sort all that out.
所以，我认为我们需要解决所有这些问题。
Michael Snyder: But, yeah, but people are now...
迈克尔·斯奈德：但是，是的，但是人们现在......
You know, you may know that people used to talk about metformin, this diabetes drug, as potentially the longevity drug that this may be the way to live a lot longer, healthier.
你知道，你可能知道人们过去常常谈论二甲双胍这种糖尿病药物，作为潜在的长寿药物，这可能是活得更长久、更健康的方法。
And the side effects are not high as far as we know, if at all, for most people.
据我们所知，对于大多数人来说，即使有副作用，副作用也不高。
And now a lot of people are very interested in these GLPs as possible longevity drugs.
现在很多人对这些 GLP 作为可能的长寿药物非常感兴趣。
And there are trials underway to look at this sort of stuff.
目前正在进行针对此类问题的试验。
So, we'll see what ways they improve people.
那么，我们将看看他们如何提高人们的水平。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I will say, as long as we're on this topic, you are a perfect example of a very diligent patient, meaning you're taking these GLP-1 drugs.
Andrew Huberman：我想说，只要我们讨论这个话题，您就是一个非常勤奋的患者的完美例子，这意味着您正在服用这些 GLP-1 药物。
You're, as you mentioned, aiming for taking lower dosages, maybe even, quote unquote, "microdosing."
正如您所提到的，您的目标是服用较低剂量，甚至可能是“微剂量”。
Michael Snyder: Yeah, I'd like to, yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的，我愿意，是的。
Andrew Huberman: But you're also resistance training daily, alternating heavy and light days.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但是你每天也会进行阻力训练，交替进行大重量和轻重量的训练。
You do your exercise snacks.
你做你的运动零食。
You're getting brisk walks after you eat.
吃完饭后你会快步散步。
I mean, I think it's important to point out that you're doing all the things that help maintain muscle mass, cognition, et cetera, while taking these GLP-1s.
我的意思是，我认为重要的是要指出，在服用这些 GLP-1 的同时，您正在做所有有助于维持肌肉质量、认知等的事情。
Many people won't or just unless they're highly motivated to.
许多人不会或只是除非他们有很大的动力去这样做。
They want a drug that's going to melt the fat away, and they are unwilling or uninterested to do the exercise piece.
他们想要一种能够融化脂肪的药物，但他们不愿意或不感兴趣做练习。
What if any data from your genomics data and these large-scale studies that you're doing point to the fact that the combination of augmenting GLP-1 with these drugs and exercise is beneficial?
如果您的基因组学数据和您正在进行的这些大规模研究中的任何数据都表明将增强 GLP-1 与这些药物和运动相结合是有益的，该怎么办？
Is it all just about maintaining muscle mass?
难道这一切只是为了维持肌肉质量吗？
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Michael Snyder: Good question.
迈克尔·斯奈德：好问题。
I don't know, but it's pretty clear that people who do strength training, again, larger studies would be nice, but it's pretty clear they can reduce their muscle mass loss.
我不知道，但很明显，进行力量训练的人，再次进行更大规模的研究会很好，但很明显他们可以减少肌肉质量的损失。
That's clear.
很清楚。
And it's definitely been the case for me.
我的情况确实如此。
I mentioned my bike accident.
我提到了我的自行车事故。
I went from pretty good about maintaining muscle mass, and I did lose some when I lost some of that.
我从非常擅长保持肌肉质量开始，当我失去一些肌肉质量时，我确实失去了一些。
So, I can tell you personally, it had an effect.
所以，我可以亲自告诉你，它确实有效果。
Andrew Huberman: Don't cycle.
安德鲁·休伯曼：不要骑自行车。
I tell my friends.
我告诉我的朋友们。
I know so many people who have been on a bicycle.
我认识很多骑过自行车的人。
You're traveling next to these 3,000-pound vehicles moving much faster than you.
您正行驶在这些 3,000 磅重的车辆旁边，它们的行驶速度比您快得多。
People are texting.
人们正在发短信。
I say this out of love for the audience and for you, even though we just met.
我这样说是出于对观众和你们的爱，尽管我们才刚刚认识。
We're colleagues at Stanford all these years.
这些年来我们都是斯坦福大学的同事。
And I have to say, everyone I know who cycles regularly gets hit by a car eventually.
我不得不说，我认识的每个经常骑自行车的人最终都会被车撞到。
I know three Stanford faculty that are dead.
我认识三位斯坦福大学的教职员工，他们已经去世了。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
I've been hit by a-
我被一个——
Michael Snyder: Oh.
迈克尔·斯奈德：哦。
Andrew Huberman: Right?
安德鲁·休伯曼：对吗？
But then again, I lived in the area for a long time.
但话又说回来，我在这个地区住了很长时间。
Michael Snyder: Yeah, right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的，没错。
Andrew Huberman: Back on Woodside Road, you know, cars just taken out, or had to dodge a car and ran into a tree.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：回到伍德赛德路，你知道，汽车刚刚被开走，或者不得不躲避汽车并撞到了一棵树上。
So dead, brain damaged, injured.
所以死了，脑损伤，受伤了。
What do I have to do to convince you to run instead of cycle?
我该怎么做才能说服你跑步而不是骑自行车？
Michael Snyder: Well, I do have a theory that your cycling versus your health, there's an inverse relationship, or it's a constant, I should say, meaning, I'll probably get killed by a car possibly someday, but I'll stay healthy in the meantime because it is my form of aerobic exercise.
迈克尔·斯奈德：嗯，我确实有一个理论，即你的骑自行车与你的健康之间存在着反比关系，或者说它是一个常数，我应该说，这意味着，有一天我可能会被车撞死，但与此同时我会保持健康，因为这是我的有氧运动形式。
Andrew Huberman: But we need you around, Snyder.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但我们需要你在身边，斯奈德。
But I say this, I don't know why anyone would do this instead of swimming or...
但我这么说，我不知道为什么有人会这样做而不是游泳或......
Michael Snyder: But I don't go up those mountain things where there's no even bike paths that they have in Palo Alto.
迈克尔·斯奈德：但我不会去那些山区，那里甚至没有帕洛阿尔托那样的自行车道。
Andrew Huberman: It's not the cyclists, it's the cars I worry about.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我担心的不是骑自行车的人，而是汽车。
Michael Snyder: Yeah, correct.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的，正确。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Michael Snyder: But there's no room in some of those places to go.
迈克尔·斯奈德：但是有些地方已经没有空间可去了。
Andrew Huberman: Right.
安德鲁·休伯曼：对。
Andrew Huberman: All right.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
Michael Snyder: So, I mostly...
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以，我主要...
I do it to go to lab and back, and I do it...
我这样做是为了去实验室然后回来，我这样做......
It's also a form of mental release for me at the end.
最后这对我来说也是一种精神释放。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: I love what I do, but I do work long hours.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我热爱我所做的事情，但我工作时间确实很长。
It's just a great release to get that bike ride home at the end of the day.
在一天结束时骑自行车回家真是一个很好的释放。
Andrew Huberman: Do you wear a helmet?
安德鲁·休伯曼：你戴头盔吗？
Michael Snyder: Oh, of course, yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：哦，当然，是的。
And that's turned out to be pretty critical when I've had more than one accident, I hate to say.
我不愿意说，当我发生不止一次事故时，这一点变得非常关键。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: No car has run into me, I'm thankful for.
迈克尔·斯奈德：很庆幸没有车撞到我。
But I hit a rock and got knocked out once, or something like that.
但有一次我撞到了石头，被撞倒了，或者类似的事情。
I don't know, I woke up briefly in a ambulance and then more in emergency rooms.
我不知道，我在救护车上短暂醒来，然后又在急诊室醒来。
Andrew Huberman: Telling you Stanford professors...
安德鲁·休伯曼：告诉你们斯坦福大学的教授们……
Michael Snyder: But-
迈克尔·斯奈德：但是——
Andrew Huberman: This is the way Stanford professors get taken out.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这就是斯坦福大学教授被除名的方式。
Michael Snyder: Yeah, well, but I've been, I'll say healthy in the meantime.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的，好吧，但我一直都在，我会说在此期间我很健康。
And I like to think I'm pretty healthy now, minus my diabetes and that sort of thing.
我想我现在很健康，没有糖尿病之类的问题。
Andrew Huberman: You seem very robust.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你看起来很坚强。
I mean, I hope you don't mind me sharing that you are about to hit 70 soon.
我的意思是，我希望你不介意我告诉你你即将年满 70 岁。
Michael Snyder: Well...
迈克尔·斯奈德：嗯……
Andrew Huberman: And you are clearly cognitively whip smart and fast, and physically, you seem very robust.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：你显然在认知上非常聪明、快速，而且在身体上，你看起来也非常强壮。
And you mentioned getting these whole body MRIs, and the fat just kind of disappearing as you were doing these GLP-1 agonists and weight training.
您提到进行全身 MRI 检查，当您使用 GLP-1 激动剂和重量训练时，脂肪就会消失。
I want to make sure I continue to hammer home the fact that you're-
我想确保我继续强调这样一个事实：你是——
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Michael Snyder: I'm big on the weight training.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我热衷于重量训练。
I'm glad you're doing that because I think it's huge.
我很高兴你这样做，因为我认为这是巨大的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, it's not just about taking a drug.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，这不仅仅是服用药物的问题。
And you can do a lot with just lifestyle, and we'll talk more about that.
你可以通过生活方式做很多事情，我们将详细讨论这一点。
But I have a question about subcutaneous versus visceral fat.
但我有一个关于皮下脂肪与内脏脂肪的问题。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: You know, we hear that fat around the viscera, around our organs is the one to really worry about.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你知道，我们听说内脏周围的脂肪，我们的器官周围的脂肪才是真正值得担心的。
And anytime I hear something like that, I think, "Okay, that sounds like a reason to not lose fat elsewhere." But, you know, what do we know about the health risks of intravisceral fat versus subcutaneous fat?
每当我听到类似的话，我就会想，“好吧，这听起来像是在其他地方不减脂的理由。”但是，您知道，我们对内脏脂肪与皮下脂肪的健康风险了解多少？
Michael Snyder: Yeah, I'm not an expert here, but it does seem pretty clear that obviously fat around your organs isn't good, fatty liver being a good example.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的，我不是这方面的专家，但很明显，器官周围的脂肪显然不好，脂肪肝就是一个很好的例子。
And by the way, when I went on GLPs, I had a little bit of fatty liver, just disappeared.
顺便说一句，当我接受 GLP 治疗时，我有一点脂肪肝，但很快就消失了。
So I think a lot of people are thinking this way that your pancreas and beta cells, in particular, are very subject to stress.
所以我认为很多人都这样认为，你的胰腺和β细胞特别容易受到压力。
And fat does put stress on your organs.
脂肪确实会给您的器官带来压力。
No question.
毫无疑问。
Michael Snyder: And so it may be one of the reasons, your pancreas and your beta cell, in particular, is very sensitive to fat, is because it does cause stress.
迈克尔·斯奈德：这可能是原因之一，你的胰腺和你的β细胞，特别是对脂肪非常敏感，因为它确实会引起压力。
We know fat's very associated with inflammation.
我们知道脂肪与炎症密切相关。
So obesity, a good example of more obese you are, higher BMI.
肥胖就是一个很好的例子，说明你越肥胖，BMI 越高。
Again, not perfect correlation, but higher inflammation.
同样，相关性并不完美，但炎症程度较高。
And so all that does tie together, and your immune system is tied in this in ways I would say we don't fully understand.
因此，所有这些确实联系在一起，而您的免疫系统以我认为我们并不完全理解的方式与之联系在一起。
Michael Snyder: But in general, the party line is that visceral fat is worse, and I think it's because it's putting stress on your organ systems, say versus subcutaneous.
迈克尔·斯奈德：但总的来说，党派的观点是内脏脂肪更糟糕，我认为这是因为它会给你的器官系统带来压力，比如与皮下脂肪相比。
Andrew Huberman: I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, David.
Andrew Huberman：我想稍微休息一下，并向我们的赞助商之一 David 表示感谢。
David makes a protein bar unlike any other.
大卫制作的蛋白质棒与众不同。
It has 28 grams of protein, only 150 calories, and zero grams of sugar.
它含有 28 克蛋白质，仅 150 卡路里，零克糖。
That's right.
这是正确的。
28 grams of protein and 75% of its calories come from protein.
28克蛋白质，其75%的热量来自于蛋白质。
This is 50% higher than the next closest protein bar.
这比第二接近的蛋白质棒高出 50%。
David protein bars also taste amazing.
大卫蛋白棒的味道也很棒。
Even the texture is amazing.
就连质感也令人惊叹。
My favorite bar is the chocolate chip cookie dough, but then again, I also like the new chocolate peanut butter flavor and the chocolate brownie flavor.
我最喜欢的巧克力棒是巧克力饼干面团，但话又说回来，我也喜欢新的巧克力花生酱口味和巧克力布朗尼口味。
Andrew Huberman: Basically, I like all the flavors a lot.
Andrew Huberman：基本上，我非常喜欢所有口味。
They're all incredibly delicious.
它们都非常美味。
In fact, the toughest challenge is knowing which ones to eat, on which days, and how many times per day.
事实上，最艰巨的挑战是知道吃哪些食物、在哪一天以及每天吃多少次。
I limit myself to two per day, but I absolutely love them.
我限制自己每天只能吃两个，但我绝对喜欢它们。
With David, I'm able to get 28 grams of protein in the calories of a snack, which makes it easy to hit my protein goals of one gram of protein per pound of body weight per day, and it allows me to do so without ingesting too many calories.
有了 David，我就能在一份零食的卡路里中获得 28 克蛋白质，这让我很容易达到每天每磅体重 1 克蛋白质的蛋白质目标，而且我可以在不摄入太多卡路里的情况下实现这一目标。
Andrew Huberman: I'll eat a David protein bar most afternoons as a snack, and I always keep one with me when I'm out of the house or traveling.
Andrew Huberman：大多数下午我都会吃大卫蛋白棒作为零食，当我出门或旅行时，我总是随身携带一根。
They're incredibly delicious, and given that they have 28 grams of protein, they're really satisfying for having just 150 calories.
它们非常美味，而且含有 28 克蛋白质，仅含 150 卡路里热量就已经很令人满意了。
If you'd like to try David, you can go to davidprotein.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 David，可以访问 david Protein.com/huberman。
Again, that's davidprotein.com/huberman.
同样，这是 david Protein.com/huberman。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Eight Sleep.
今天的节目也是八觉给我们带来的。
Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity.
August Sleep 生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。
Andrew Huberman: One of the best ways to ensure a great night's sleep is to make sure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct, and that's because in order to fall and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees.
Andrew Huberman：确保一夜好眠的最佳方法之一是确保睡眠环境的温度正确，这是因为为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，您的体温实际上必须下降约一到三度。
And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees.
为了醒来时感觉神清气爽、精力充沛，您的体温实际上必须升高约一到三度。
Eight Sleep automatically regulates the temperature of your bed throughout the night according to your unique needs.
八睡眠会根据您的独特需求自动调节整个晚上的床温。
Eight Sleep has just launched their latest model, the Pod 5.
八睡眠刚刚推出了他们的最新型号 Pod 5。
And the Pod 5 has several new important features.
Pod 5 有几个新的重要功能。
Andrew Huberman: One of these new features is called Auto Pilot.
Andrew Huberman：其中一项新功能称为自动驾驶仪。
Auto Pilot is an AI engine that learns your sleep patterns to adjust the temperature of your sleeping environment across different sleep stages.
Auto Pilot 是一款人工智能引擎，可以学习您的睡眠模式，从而调整不同睡眠阶段的睡眠环境温度。
It also elevates your head if you're snoring, and it makes other shifts to optimize your sleep.
如果您打鼾，它还会抬高您的头部，并进行其他转换以优化您的睡眠。
The base on the Pod 5 also has an integrated speaker that syncs to the Eight Sleep app and can play audio to support relaxation and recovery.
Pod 5 的底座还配有一个集成扬声器，可与八睡眠应用程序同步，并可以播放音频以支持放松和恢复。
The audio catalog includes several NSDR, non-sleep deep rest, scripts that I worked on with Eight Sleep to record.
音频目录包括几个 NSDR、非睡眠深度休息以及我与“八睡眠”一起录制的脚本。
Andrew Huberman: If you're not familiar, NSDR involves listening to an audio script that walks you through a deep body relaxation combined with some very simple breathing exercises.
Andrew Huberman：如果您不熟悉，NSDR 涉及聆听音频脚本，该音频脚本将引导您进行深度身体放松，并结合一些非常简单的呼吸练习。
It's an extremely powerful tool that anyone can benefit from the first time and every time.
这是一个极其强大的工具，任何人第一次和每次都可以从中受益。
If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, go to eightsleep.com/huberman to get up to $350 off the new Pod 5.
如果您想尝试八睡眠，请访问八睡眠.com/huberman，新款 Pod 5 最高可享受 350 美元优惠。
Eight Sleep ships to many countries worldwide, including Mexico and the UAE.
八号睡眠船运往世界各地的许多国家，包括墨西哥和阿联酋。
Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $350.
同样，访问八睡眠.com/huberman 最多可节省 350 美元。
Andrew Huberman: I'd like to talk a little bit about meal timing and sleep.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我想谈谈进餐时间和睡眠。
I do my best to eat my last bite of food at least a couple of hours before I go to sleep.
我尽力至少在睡觉前几个小时吃完最后一口食物。
Doesn't always happen.
并不总是会发生。
What do we know about how evening and nighttime meals impact sleep and next-day glucose levels and regulation?
我们对晚餐和夜间膳食如何影响睡眠和第二天的血糖水平和调节了解多少？
Michael Snyder: Well, the party line is that you should not eat three hours before sleeping, and I believe that, and that's true from the studies we've run, that people who do have a gap and actually people who walk after dinner have lower glucose the next day.
迈克尔·斯奈德：嗯，党的路线是，你不应该在睡觉前三个小时吃东西，我相信，从我们进行的研究来看，这是事实，确实有间隙的人和实际上晚饭后散步的人第二天的血糖较低。
And if you go into the evening with a high glucose spike, in general, that correlates with poorer sleep.
一般来说，如果你到了晚上血糖峰值很高，这与睡眠质量较差有关。
So, I think it's more complicated than that.
所以，我认为事情比这更复杂。
Michael Snyder: I think again, the party line will be, "Well, your glucose was kind of high at night and gradually goes down during the day and will spike in the morning." You got a cortisol spike, as you probably know, when you wake up, and that's normal and that's healthy.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我再次认为，聚会的台词是，“嗯，你的血糖在晚上有点高，白天逐渐下降，早上会飙升。”你可能知道，当你醒来时，你的皮质醇会激增，这是正常的，也是健康的。
Helps energize you for the day, and cortisol and glucose are related.
帮助您在一天中充满活力，皮质醇和葡萄糖是相关的。
But when you actually look at people's glucose patterns, it's much more complicated than that, and I think a lot of that has to do with what their subphenotype is, is what we don't fully understand as we're trying to sort this out.
但当你真正观察人们的血糖模式时，情况比这要复杂得多，我认为这很大程度上与他们的亚表型有关，这是我们在试图解决这个问题时所不完全理解的。
Michael Snyder: And what you did the day and especially the evening before, eating that big piece of pizza and then go falling right asleep probably is not a great thing for you.
迈克尔·斯奈德：你那天，尤其是前一天晚上所做的事情，吃一大块披萨然后就睡着了，对你来说可能不是一件好事。
You will go to bed with a high glucose spike, for many people, again, unless you have perfect glucose control.
对于许多人来说，除非您能完美控制血糖，否则您上床睡觉时的血糖会飙升。
So, I think getting your glucose under control, it is a bit of a problem for me.
所以，我认为控制血糖对我来说是一个问题。
We tend to eat late in my household just because both my wife and I work kind of late.
我们家往往吃得很晚，因为我和妻子都工作到很晚。
Michael Snyder: And so we tend to eat a little bit later, but I definitely do better if I can try and eat earlier, and I definitely don't snack before bedtime, that sort of thing.
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以我们倾向于晚一点吃东西，但如果我能尝试早点吃东西，我肯定会做得更好，而且我绝对不会在睡前吃零食之类的事情。
And these days, I try not to make my biggest meal my dinner, which again, can lead you into sleep with that.
这些天，我尽量不把最丰盛的一餐当作晚餐，这又会让你入睡。
And we always take a walk.
我们总是散步。
We have dogs, and walk our dog after dinner, and it's become a routine.
我们养狗，晚饭后遛狗，这已经成为一种习惯。
Michael Snyder: You mentioned earlier about behavior, and I think the key for good behavior is to get into these routines, where you can just get into that, and I think it really makes a difference.
迈克尔·斯奈德：你之前提到了行为，我认为良好行为的关键是进入这些惯例，你可以进入其中，我认为这确实会产生影响。
So, yeah, always, and as I'm sure you know, going to bed, we'd found that in some of our studies as well, going to bed the exact same time, those folks have lower glucose than those who have highly variable sleep timing.
所以，是的，总是，我相信你知道，上床睡觉，我们也发现在我们的一些研究中，在完全相同的时间上床睡觉，那些人的血糖比那些睡眠时间变化很大的人要低。
Now, that's not so great for me because I travel a fair amount.
现在，这对我来说不太好，因为我经常出差。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, likewise.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，同样。
Michael Snyder: But I try when I'm not traveling to keep constant hours.
迈克尔·斯奈德：但当我不旅行时，我会尝试保持固定的工作时间。
At least that part I'm okay at, but you know.
至少那部分我还可以，但你知道。
Andrew Huberman: I think we forget sometimes the number of interesting things that happen in sleep, and one of the most interesting papers, to me anyway, in the last few years was a paper that I saw where they essentially had people breathe into a tube while they were sleeping.
Andrew Huberman：我认为我们有时会忘记睡眠中发生的有趣的事情的数量，无论如何，对我来说最有趣的论文之一是我在过去几年看到的一篇论文，其中他们基本上让人们在睡觉时向管子里呼吸。
Michael Snyder: Okay.
迈克尔·斯奈德：好的。
Andrew Huberman: And evaluated the different types of metabolism that were occurring during sleep.
Andrew Huberman：并评估了睡眠期间发生的不同类型的新陈代谢。
And it turns out that as we go from light sleep to deep sleep, and then more rapid eye movement sleep as the night progresses, the brain and body transition through essentially every form of metabolism, glucose metabolism, ketogenic metabolism, a mixture of the two.
事实证明，当我们从浅度睡眠进入深度睡眠，然后随着夜晚的进行而进入更快速的眼动睡眠时，大脑和身体基本上会通过各种形式的新陈代谢、葡萄糖代谢、生酮代谢以及两者的混合进行转变。
And it seems like sleep is this, we don't know if it's a, like a test run or if it's a reboot or we don't know what to call it, right?
看起来睡眠就是这样，我们不知道它是测试运行还是重新启动，或者我们不知道该怎么称呼它，对吧？
Andrew Huberman: But it's just very clear that during sleep, there's a lot of metabolism happening.
Andrew Huberman：但很明显，在睡眠期间，会发生大量的新陈代谢。
So when you tell me that getting to bed at roughly the same time or the same time every night improves blood glucose regulation, my first thought is, "Oh, well, that makes sense because if you go to bed at the same time, then you're eating at roughly the same time, you're exercising at roughly the same time." But it could also be the case that in sleep, we're getting a tuning up of the metabolic processes for the brain and body.
因此，当你告诉我，每天晚上大致在同一时间或同一时间上床睡觉可以改善血糖调节时，我的第一个想法是，“哦，好吧，这是有道理的，因为如果你在同一时间上床睡觉，那么你就大致在同一时间吃饭，你就在大致同一时间锻炼。”但也可能是这样，在睡眠中，我们正在调整大脑和身体的代谢过程。
Is there any evidence that, that supports that?
有任何证据表明支持这一点吗？
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Again, I don't know from the metabolism standpoint.
再说一次，我不知道从新陈代谢的角度来看。
I like to say the things we do the most, we understand the least.
我喜欢说我们做的最多的事情，我们理解的却最少。
Nutrition, right?
营养吧？
How does it exactly does that work on all your different organs?
它到底是如何作用于你所有不同的器官的？
Sleep.
睡觉。
You know, I do like the idea that sleep, you may know your, you would know this better than me, but your spinal fluid inside you expands and contracts, the idea of emptying out the garbage, so to speak, when you sleep.
你知道，我确实喜欢睡眠这个想法，你可能比我更了解这一点，但是你体内的脊髓液会膨胀和收缩，可以说，当你睡觉时，会排空垃圾。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, it literally rinses out your system.
Andrew Huberman：是的，它确实会冲洗你的系统。
Michael Snyder: Yeah, and I like that concept.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的，我喜欢这个概念。
I think, and, you know, to what extent that is beneficial, I'm sure it is, I don't know, and all the other facts.
我认为，而且，你知道，这在多大程度上是有益的，我确信是的，我不知道，以及所有其他事实。
But even people argue what's better for you, REM versus deep sleep.
但即使是人们也会争论快速眼动睡眠和深度睡眠哪个对你更好。
Even some of that is debated by experts in the field.
甚至其中一些问题也受到了该领域专家的争论。
Again, I'm not a sleep expert.
再说一遍，我不是睡眠专家。
I have a tendency to move into fields I know nothing about, so because I'm so naive, I hope to learn something, especially these areas that aren't so well understood.
我倾向于进入我一无所知的领域，所以因为我很天真，我希望学到一些东西，尤其是那些不太了解的领域。
Michael Snyder: So, it's an area we're going to be studying a lot more around the glucose control, but there's no question if you look at some people, they're spiking really bizarrely, and I have mixed days myself.
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以，这是一个我们将围绕血糖控制进行更多研究的领域，但毫无疑问，如果你观察一些人，他们的血糖飙升确实很奇怪，而我自己也经历过混杂的日子。
I'm trying to sort that out.
我正在努力解决这个问题。
Somewhere I do hit the party line, higher glucose, gradually go down by the morning, but then I have nights where I'm quite irregular, and I want to correlate that with what's going on.
在某些地方，我确实达到了党的路线，血糖升高，到早上逐渐下降，但后来我的晚上很不规律，我想将其与正在发生的事情联系起来。
And it's not just me.
不仅仅是我。
It's true of a lot of people, and I don't think that's sorted out in my mind.
这对很多人来说都是如此，但我认为我的头脑中还没有解决这个问题。
Michael Snyder: And I think metabolism in general, at some point, we can talk about the microsampling stuff, but we had 32 people drink this Ensure shake while they were fasted, and they all reacted very differently to it.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我认为一般来说，在某些时候，我们可以谈论微采样的东西，但我们有 32 个人在禁食时喝了这款 Ensure 奶昔，他们对此的反应非常不同。
This was during the day now, not sleep.
现在是白天，不是睡觉。
And for some people it was pro-inflammatory, for others anti-inflammatory.
对于某些人来说，它是促炎的，而对于另一些人来说，它是抗炎的。
Andrew Huberman: So interesting.
安德鲁·休伯曼：太有趣了。
Michael Snyder: I assume a lot of this got set early in life because your whole microbiome...
迈克尔·斯奈德：我认为这很大程度上是在生命早期就已经决定的，因为你的整个微生物组......
So backing up a little bit, just so people realize that you have a lot of microbes.
所以稍微备份一下，这样人们就会意识到你有很多微生物。
You have, in fact, more microbes in you than are human cells, and they are critical for digesting your food and all this, and they heavily interact with your immune system.
事实上，你体内的微生物比人类细胞还要多，它们对于消化你的食物等至关重要，并且它们与你的免疫系统密切相关。
70% of your immune cells are in your gut.
70% 的免疫细胞位于肠道内。
Michael Snyder: So you have this whole interplay between your immune system and your gut, and obviously then the food you eat, which goes through your small intestine first and the small molecules like glucose get absorbed, but then all the fibers, the big molecules go into your colon area, your large intestine, where they basically are interacting with these immune cells.
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以你的免疫系统和你的肠道之间存在着整个相互作用，显然你吃的食物首先通过你的小肠，葡萄糖等小分子被吸收，但然后所有的纤维，大分子进入你的结肠区域，你的大肠，在那里它们基本上与这些免疫细胞相互作用。
And a lot of that gets probably set early in life.
其中很多可能是在生命早期就设定好的。
Michael Snyder: In fact, people have shown your microbiome gets set in your first three years of life.
迈克尔·斯奈德：事实上，人们已经证明你的微生物组在你生命的前三年就已经确定了。
So I think that interplay all gets established, and then you are reacting to some of that, your food, later in life.
所以我认为相互作用都已经建立，然后你会对其中的一些做出反应，你的食物，在以后的生活中。
That's at least the postulate.
至少这是假设。
Not that you can't modify it.
并不是说你不能修改它。
In fact, switching from carnivore to veggie diets and or Mediterranean-type diets, which are sort of healthier, like fish heavy, veggie diets, I think are helpful for people.
事实上，从肉食饮食转向素食饮食和/或地中海式饮食，这些饮食更健康，比如多吃鱼的素食饮食，我认为对人们有帮助。
Michael Snyder: But I do think some of this gets set early, and I think getting that set right, I think we probably need to, as a society, get that all set a lot earlier probably now too.
迈克尔·斯奈德：但我确实认为其中一些内容需要尽早设定，而且我认为正确设定，我认为作为一个社会，我们可能需要更早地设定所有内容，也许现在也是如此。
And it's estimated, some work from Justin Sonnenburg, that native populations, these aboriginals, they have three times the number of microbes that, say, people in the US.
据贾斯汀·索南伯格（Justin Sonnenburg）的一些研究估计，当地居民（这些原住民）的微生物数量是美国人的三倍。
So, we just don't have the same community that is probably handling diverse foods and probably making essential ingredients for our health that were now missing.
因此，我们只是没有相同的社区来处理不同的食物，并可能为我们的健康制造现在缺失的必需成分。
So, we probably need to restore that in some fashion, otherwise this obesity and diabetes trend is just going to continue.
因此，我们可能需要以某种方式恢复这一点，否则这种肥胖和糖尿病的趋势将继续下去。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
I totally agree.
我完全同意。
I think the gut microbiome is without question one of the more fascinating aspects of our biology, and in no small part because of the way that it interacts with the brain by the vagus nerve.
我认为肠道微生物组无疑是我们生物学中最迷人的方面之一，这在很大程度上是因为它通过迷走神经与大脑相互作用的方式。
Everyone's obsessed these days with the vagus nerve as a calming pathway, but it's a...
如今，每个人都痴迷于迷走神经作为一种镇静途径，但它是...
Got a bunch of different avenues within it, and it is the major route by which your gut communicates with your brain.
其中有很多不同的途径，它是肠道与大脑沟通的主要途径。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Andrew Huberman: And, I do want to just say one thing in fairness to an observation.
安德鲁·休伯曼：而且，我确实想公平地说一件事。
I completely agree with you that many people who've been eating certainly standard American diet, sad to think that anyone still does that anymore because it's such a terrible diet.
我完全同意你的观点，许多人一直在吃标准的美国饮食，但很遗憾有人仍然这样做，因为这是一种非常糟糕的饮食。
I think everyone agrees on that, a lot of processed foods.
我想每个人都同意这一点，很多加工食品。
But you mentioned switching carnivore for more Mediterranean or plant-based.
但你提到将肉食动物转向更多地中海或植物性食物。
I have seen that work for many people.
我已经看到这对很多人都有效。
Andrew Huberman: I will just also mention in fairness, and this relates to the gut microbiome, there do seem to be some people who, despite their best effort to eat fiber, fruits, vegetables, fish, so-called Mediterranean diet, that for whatever reason, they have persistent autoimmune issues.
Andrew Huberman：我还要公平地提到，这与肠道微生物组有关，似乎确实有一些人，尽管他们尽了最大努力吃纤维、水果、蔬菜、鱼和所谓的地中海饮食，但无论出于何种原因，他们都存在持续的自身免疫问题。
Andrew Huberman: And I have observed over and over again that if they switch to an elimination diet that's largely just meat, believe it or not, and nothing else, they seem to resolve those autoimmune issues.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我一遍又一遍地观察到，如果他们改用主要只吃肉的消除饮食，不管你信不信，什么都不吃，他们似乎可以解决这些自身免疫问题。
Now, I personally don't follow that diet.
现在，我个人不遵循这种饮食习惯。
I don't think it's the healthiest diet out there.
我不认为这是最健康的饮食。
It's very hard to stick to.
很难坚持下去。
But in my mind, it seems like the data are pointing to the idea that there are diverse microbiomes out there set up early in life, and probably genetics play a role also.
但在我看来，这些数据似乎表明，生命早期就存在着多种微生物组，而且遗传学可能也发挥了作用。
You're a professor of genetics, so hopefully that's not too heretical an idea.
你是一位遗传学教授，所以希望这不是一个太异端的想法。
Michael Snyder: By the way, some of this has been broken down of say, how much is your microbiome for general glucose levels versus genetics.
迈克尔·斯奈德：顺便说一句，其中一些已经被细分，比如说，你的微生物组对一般葡萄糖水平与遗传学的影响有多大。
And I think for the general microbiome, it's about 20 some, 20 to 30%.
我认为对于一般微生物组来说，大约有 20 个，即 20% 到 30%。
Depends on the cohort that was studied.
取决于所研究的队列。
There's some work from the Weissman.
韦斯曼有一些工作。
And then for genetics it may be about 20% as well or maybe even a little less.
对于遗传学来说，也可能是 20% 左右，甚至可能更少。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Andrew Huberman: So, 20% of your microbiome is determined by your genetics?
Andrew Huberman：那么，20% 的微生物组是由基因决定的？
Michael Snyder: No, the other way around.
迈克尔·斯奈德：不，相反。
Sorry, of your glucose levels, 20%, 20 to 30% is determined by your microbiome, and about 20% by your genetics or glucose.
抱歉，您的血糖水平中，20%、20% 至 30% 由您的微生物组决定，大约 20% 由您的遗传或血糖决定。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And the rest by lifestyle?
安德鲁·休伯曼：剩下的就是生活方式？
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
That's a useful set of metrics.
这是一组有用的指标。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I just have to believe based on the observation of people who are really careful, really care about their health, they're not doing standard American diet, and they've tried vegan, they've tried vegetarian, they've tried omnivore without many processed foods, and then they try ketogenic diet and they feel better, and then they go full just meat, and their issues disappear.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，我不得不相信，基于对那些非常小心、真正关心自己健康的人的观察，他们没有遵循标准的美国饮食，他们尝试过纯素食，他们尝试过素食，他们尝试过没有很多加工食品的杂食，然后他们尝试生酮饮食，他们感觉好多了，然后他们只吃肉就饱了，他们的问题就消失了。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And you kind of have to acknowledge that.
Andrew Huberman：你必须承认这一点。
I'm not saying you have to, but I'm going to acknowledge it.
我并不是说你必须这样做，但我会承认这一点。
I will also say that most people seem to do well on an omnivorous diet.
我还要说的是，大多数人似乎在杂食性饮食中表现良好。
I think 90% of people in the world are probably omnivores.
我想世界上90%的人可能都是杂食动物。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And I find it so interesting that as we support the gut microbiome, our health generally improves.
Andrew Huberman：我发现很有趣的是，当我们支持肠道微生物组时，我们的健康状况通常会得到改善。
That just seems to be the case.
情况似乎就是如此。
I'd like to talk for a moment about fiber.
我想谈谈纤维。
Michael Snyder: Sure.
迈克尔·斯奈德：当然。
Andrew Huberman: Because I think there's general agreement in the medical community that fiber is important.
Andrew Huberman：因为我认为医学界普遍认为纤维很重要。
Reduces risk of cancer, improves digestion, adds bulk to food, reduces inflammation, just on and on and on.
降低癌症风险、改善消化、增加食物体积、减少炎症等等。
But then again, our colleague, Justin Sonnenburg and Christopher Gardner.
但话又说回来，我们的同事贾斯汀·索南伯格和克里斯托弗·加德纳。
Both of whom have been on this podcast before, did this really nice study of comparing increasing fiber in the diet versus increasing intake of low sugar fermented foods.
他们两人之前都参加过这个播客，做了一项非常好的研究，比较了饮食中增加纤维与增加低糖发酵食品的摄入量。
And it's very clear that the increase in low sugar fermented foods supported proliferation of the healthy gut microbiota, reduced the inflammasome.
很明显，低糖发酵食品的增加支持健康肠道微生物群的增殖，减少炎症小体。
Whereas increasing fiber allowed some people to reduce inflammation, other people's levels of inflammation went up.
虽然增加纤维可以使一些人减少炎症，但其他人的炎症水平却上升。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And so this brings us to this question of when we talk about fiber as a general category, maybe that's too broad.
Andrew Huberman：这给我们带来了这样一个问题：当我们将纤维作为一个一般类别来讨论时，也许这个范围太宽泛了。
Michael Snyder: It is.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Could you tell us about the two major types of fiber, which foods tend to deliver one or the other type of fiber, and if indeed there are differences in which fiber are best for different people?
Andrew Huberman：您能否告诉我们两种主要类型的纤维，哪些食物往往会提供一种或另一种类型的纤维，以及哪种纤维最适合不同的人是否存在差异？
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
So, as you're alluding to, fiber is very heterogeneous, very different.
因此，正如您所提到的，纤维是非常异质的、非常不同的。
And we even break it down further than that.
我们甚至还进一步分解它。
You're probably thinking of, you know, soluble versus insoluble, or resistant starch versus starch, but I look at fiber as, like, just a giant community of different substrates, if you will.
您可能会想到可溶性淀粉与不可溶性淀粉，或者抗性淀粉与淀粉，但如果您愿意的话，我将纤维视为不同基质的巨大群落。
So we have long chain, short chains, hydrophobic, hydrophilic, positive, negative.
所以我们有长链、短链、疏水性、亲水性、正电、负电。
It's like saying all animals are the same.
这就像说所有动物都是一样的。
Humans are the same as cockroaches, the same as cats and dogs.
人类和蟑螂一样，和猫狗一样。
Andrew Huberman: You just can't lump that broadly.
Andrew Huberman：你不能笼统地概括这一点。
Michael Snyder: You can't, and their effects are very, very broad.
迈克尔·斯奈德：你不能，而且它们的影响非常非常广泛。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Michael Snyder: And so we've started tearing this apart.
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以我们已经开始把它拆散了。
I was a chemistry undergrad by training, so I guess that's where I'm coming at this.
我是一名化学专业的本科生，所以我想这就是我的目的。
So we just started...
所以我们才刚刚开始...
And being somewhat practical too, we started putting people on...
而且也有点实际，我们开始让人们......
We took two common fibers, arabinoxylan and inulin, which are these two just commonly used.
我们取了两种常见的纤维，阿拉伯木聚糖和菊粉，这两种只是常用的。
Arabixylans and psyllium husks and it's associated with Metamucil.
阿拉伯木聚糖和洋车前子壳，它与 Metamucil 相关。
And inulins and those chicory pea fiber things.
还有菊粉和那些菊苣豌豆纤维的东西。
And-
还有——
Andrew Huberman: Well, could you, before we dive into this, what are some foods that one type of fibers is more abundant in versus the other type of fiber?
安德鲁·休伯曼：好吧，在我们深入探讨这个问题之前，您能先介绍一下哪些食物中一种纤维的含量比另一种纤维的含量更丰富吗？
Michael Snyder: Well, Metamucil is a good example for the arabixylan would be in that.
Michael Snyder：嗯，Metamucil 是阿拉伯木聚糖的一个很好的例子。
And arabixylan's kind of interesting.
阿拉伯木聚糖有点有趣。
As the name sounds to chemists, it has arabinose and it does have some glucose, but it has polyphenols in it too.
顾名思义，它含有阿拉伯糖和一些葡萄糖，但也含有多酚。
And I don't know if you probably have covered this on your show.
我不知道你是否在你的节目中报道过这一点。
Andrew Huberman: No, not yet, but they're super important.
Andrew Huberman：不，还没有，但它们非常重要。
Michael Snyder: They are.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
And they're being, especially in the last, I'd say six, 10 years, being more and more appreciated for all their positive effects as antioxidants, anti-inflammatory.
尤其是在过去的六年、十年里，它们因其抗氧化、抗炎等积极作用而越来越受到人们的重视。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: So, anyway, they're part of arabixylan.
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以，无论如何，它们是阿拉伯木聚糖的一部分。
This inulin is a glucose polymer, but there are short chain and long chain that has similar properties as well too.
这种菊粉是一种葡萄糖聚合物，但短链和长链也具有类似的特性。
That's in various certain fruits, and certain other things.
这存在于各种特定的水果和某些其他的东西中。
And when we went into this, if you read the literature, you would say, "Well..." There'd be some says, said, "Well, inulin lowers your glucose," and others say, "No, it has no effect." And some saying it lowers your cholesterol, and others it doesn't.
当我们讨论这个问题时，如果你阅读文献，你会说，“嗯……”有人会说，“嗯，菊粉会降低你的血糖，”而其他人会说，“不，它没有效果。”有些人说它可以降低胆固醇，而另一些人则不能。
Same with arabixylan.
与阿拉伯木聚糖相同。
It was all over the map, although there might have been more of a consensus about this arabixylan lowering cholesterol.
尽管人们对于这种阿拉伯木聚糖降低胆固醇的作用可能有更多的共识，但它的范围很广。
So, we just did it.
所以，我们就这么做了。
We took 18 people.
我们带了18个人。
Michael Snyder: I know it doesn't sound like very many, but they did a, what's called a crossover study where they went on increasing doses, where they took either 10 for the first 10 grams a day, for the first week as a supplement, 20 the next week, 30 the next week, and then did a washout and then switched to the other one.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我知道听起来不是很多，但他们做了一项所谓的交叉研究，他们继续增加剂量，第一周每天服用 10 克，前 10 克作为补充，下周 20 克，下周 30 克，然后进行清洗，然后换成另一种。
So they're randomized.
所以它们是随机的。
They might do arabixylan the first period, and then inulin the second, then a mixed fiber, which the party line would say is supposed to be the best for you.
他们可能会在第一阶段使用阿拉伯木聚糖，然后在第二阶段使用菊粉，然后是混合纤维，派对路线会说这应该是最适合您的。
So, we put...
所以，我们把...
And then we do what we're known for, these deep measurements, these deep ohmic measures many molecules of people's blood and as well as clinical measures.
然后我们进行众所周知的深度测量，这些深度欧姆测量人们血液中的许多分子以及临床测量。
And so what we discovered is that as a general rule, arabixylan did reduce cholesterol, and actually quite substantially.
所以我们发现，作为一般规则，阿拉伯木聚糖确实降低了胆固醇，而且实际上相当显着。
It went down about 25%.
下降了约25%。
Andrew Huberman: So, this is in Metamucil, but what sorts of foods contain high amounts of this compound?
Andrew Huberman：那么，这是在 Metamucil 中，但是哪些食物含有大量这种化合物呢？
Michael Snyder: Most do, actually.
迈克尔·斯奈德：实际上，大多数都是这样。
Andrew Huberman: Oh, okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哦，好吧。
Michael Snyder: It's very-
迈克尔·斯奈德：这非常-
Andrew Huberman: So broccoli?
安德鲁·胡伯曼：那么西兰花呢？
Michael Snyder: Yeah, broccoli.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的，西兰花。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Kale, lettuce, cabbage?
安德鲁·休伯曼：羽衣甘蓝、生菜、卷心菜？
Michael Snyder: Yes.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
Okay.
好的。
So when we think of fiber, we think of th-
因此，当我们想到纤维时，我们会想到 -
Michael Snyder: But they have other things as well.
迈克尔·斯奈德：但他们还有其他东西。
So, these are generally mixtures.
因此，这些通常是混合物。
Like apple fiber will have three major types of fiber.
像苹果纤维就有三大类纤维。
It's back to this heterogeneity of fibers.
这又回到了纤维的异质性。
So, we're now getting into others like beta-glucans, another fiber.
因此，我们现在正在研究其他纤维，例如β-葡聚糖，另一种纤维。
Resistant starch is yet another one.
抗性淀粉是另一种。
So, there's a whole series of these fibers out there, yet they're not studied for their individual effects.
因此，存在一系列这些纤维，但尚未研究它们的单独效果。
And it may be the case, of course, the complex mixture is a big deal, as well, meaning getting the right combination.
当然，情况可能确实如此，复杂的混合物也很重要，这意味着获得正确的组合。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
Michael Snyder: But we're starting with individual fibers, trying to see what their effects are, and then we will do combinations.
迈克尔·斯奈德：但我们从单个纤维开始，试图了解它们的效果，然后我们将进行组合。
So, we're just finishing up a study where instead of two fibers, we added two more, beta-glucan and resistant starch, and we're trying to see their effects as supplements.
因此，我们刚刚完成一项研究，我们不再添加两种纤维，而是添加了两种纤维：β-葡聚糖和抗性淀粉，我们正在尝试观察它们作为补充剂的效果。
And the idea ultimately is, I think people do supplements.
最终的想法是，我认为人们会服用补充剂。
That's why we're doing supplements.
这就是我们做补充剂的原因。
Not that I'm a big fan.
并不是说我是它的忠实粉丝。
I'd rather they eat healthier, unprocessed food.
我宁愿他们吃更健康、未加工的食物。
Andrew Huberman: Or both.
安德鲁·休伯曼：或者两者兼而有之。
Michael Snyder: Or both.
迈克尔·斯奈德：或者两者兼而有之。
But yeah, most people don't get enough.
但是，是的，大多数人都还不够。
You probably know that it's recommended women have at least 25 grams of fiber a day, men 35.
您可能知道，建议女性每天至少摄入 25 克纤维，男性每天至少摄入 35 克纤维。
And the number the people get is something like 12 to 15.
人们得到的数字大约是 12 到 15。
Andrew Huberman: Wow.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哇。
Michael Snyder: They're off by a factor of two in their amount of fiber they consume.
迈克尔·斯奈德：他们消耗的纤维量减少了两倍。
So, minimally, supplements could help bring that up.
因此，补充剂至少可以帮助解决这个问题。
Anyway, I mentioned that arabinoxylan as a general rule lowered most people's cholesterol.
不管怎样，我提到阿拉伯木聚糖一般来说可以降低大多数人的胆固醇。
And by the way, neither affected glucose.
顺便说一下，两者都不影响血糖。
So, we think other things are important for that.
因此，我们认为其他事情对此也很重要。
Michael Snyder: But if you look at individuals, we did see some people where arabinoxylan had zero effect, meaning their cholesterol stayed flat, even when they went to the higher dose of 30 grams per day.
Michael Snyder：但如果你观察个人，我们确实看到一些人的阿拉伯木聚糖效果为零，这意味着他们的胆固醇水平保持不变，即使他们每天服用 30 克的较高剂量。
Yet their inulin promoted their decrease in cholesterol.
然而，他们的菊粉却促进了胆固醇的降低。
So, what's going on?
那么，这是怎么回事？
Well, we don't know.
好吧，我们不知道。
But to me, it's logical that your microbiome, maybe it's your immune, maybe it's other parameters are playing into this.
但对我来说，你的微生物组，也许是你的免疫系统，也许是其他参数也在发挥作用，这是合乎逻辑的。
Michael Snyder: So this is why ultimately what I want to do is just get your microbiome, do a blood draw and say, "Aha, here's the foods that will be healthy for you, and here's the ones that won't." I think this is very personalized and complex.
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以这就是为什么我最终想做的就是获取你的微生物组，抽血并说，“啊哈，这些食物对你来说是健康的，而这是那些对你不健康的食物。”我认为这是非常个性化和复杂的。
It comes back to what you were saying before about meats and things having different effects on people.
这又回到了你之前所说的关于肉类和其他东西对人有不同影响的问题。
And you probably know a lot of people with bipolar, now the solution for a lot of people is a ketogenic diet, right?
你可能认识很多患有双相情感障碍的人，现在很多人的解决方案是生酮饮食，对吧？
And it seems to really work.
这似乎确实有效。
There are studies out there where it's been very transformative.
有一些研究表明它具有很大的变革性。
Andrew Huberman: Which is remarkable.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这很了不起。
I mean, if we really just take a step back, it's like forever, you know, bipolar, depression was one of the most difficult things to treat.
我的意思是，如果我们真的退一步，就像永远一样，你知道，双向情感障碍，抑郁症是最难治疗的事情之一。
And it turns out the ketogenic diet can be very effective in some people.
事实证明，生酮饮食对某些人非常有效。
In some cases, curing people.
在某些情况下，可以治愈人。
Not every person.
不是每个人。
But that's a remarkable breakthrough.
但这是一个了不起的突破。
Michael Snyder: I agree.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我同意。
Andrew Huberman: And as you said earlier, I think it's such a key thing for people to keep in mind.
安德鲁·休伯曼：正如您之前所说，我认为这是人们需要牢记的一件关键事情。
We understand the least about the things we do the most.
我们对自己做的最多的事情了解得最少。
So, you can imagine for many years people are eating like everyone eats sooner or later, and some of these people are dealing with serious mental health issues, and the foods they were eating very well were exacerbating their symptoms.
所以，你可以想象多年来人们的饮食方式就像每个人早晚吃的一样，其中一些人正在处理严重的心理健康问题，而他们吃得很好的食物却加剧了他们的症状。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: It's just wild to think about.
Andrew Huberman：想想就觉得很疯狂。
But then when we talk about, and I've heard you say, "Food is medicine," I think most people don't think of food as medicine.
但是当我们谈论时，我听你说，“食物就是药物”，我认为大多数人并不认为食物是药物。
I think most people think as food as something they need, that they crave, that they enjoy, and that eventually becomes problematic for them.
我认为大多数人认为食物是他们需要的、他们渴望的、他们享受的东西，而这最终对他们来说会成为问题。
I don't think people really understand the extent to which what they put in their mouth can support them, that it really can be health promoting.
我认为人们并不真正了解他们放入口中的东西对他们的支持程度，以及它确实可以促进健康。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Right?
安德鲁·休伯曼：对吗？
I think it's because we are so calorie oriented.
我认为这是因为我们非常注重卡路里。
Like, oh, you know, it's all a battle between what you take in versus what you burn.
就像，哦，你知道，这都是你吸收的东西和你燃烧的东西之间的一场战斗。
Michael Snyder: I know.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我知道。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: But you really view food as medicine.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但你确实将食物视为药物。
Michael Snyder: Oh, yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：哦，是的。
Because I think we are, I mean, the way I look at it, we're homeostatic systems.
因为我认为我们是，我的意思是，从我的角度来看，我们是稳态系统。
And complex ones at that, right?
还有复杂的，对吧？
We have all these organs, all these biochemical pathways.
我们拥有所有这些器官，所有这些生化途径。
And you know, the one we also understand the least is people's behavior.
你知道，我们最不了解的是人们的行为。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: That came up earlier, and I'm sure it'll come up again.
迈克尔·斯奈德：这个问题早些时候就出现过，我相信它还会再次出现。
And you have to tune all this stuff to keep it right.
你必须调整所有这些东西才能保持正确。
And in general, most people do pretty well.
总的来说，大多数人都做得很好。
But I think we could all improve that, I'm sure.
但我确信我们都可以改进这一点。
And that is the goal, to keep this...
这就是目标，保持这个......
You know, your car, right?
你知道，你的车，对吧？
If you want it to run forever, you want to keep all the systems working right and in balance.
如果您希望它永远运行，您需要保持所有系统正常运行并保持平衡。
You don't let things get off too far.
你不要让事情偏离得太远。
And I think there's a tendency, and I think this is a problem with medicine today, we wait 'till things are broken and then try and fix it.
我认为有一种趋势，我认为这是当今医学的一个问题，我们等到事情被打破，然后尝试修复它。
And so obviously, what you want to do is have people as well-tuned cars for their entire life, and then pass away then.
显然，你想要做的是让人们一生都拥有精心调校的汽车，然后去世。
That's how it should work.
这就是它应该如何运作的。
And so I think that's what we want to do, keep people tuned.
所以我认为这就是我们想做的，让人们继续关注。
Michael Snyder: And so we probably don't get off to a good start early in life, when we start people with all these not so good diets, like all this excessive processed food, and sugar, and losing our microbiome diversity.
迈克尔·斯奈德：因此，当我们开始让人们接受所有这些不太好的饮食时，比如所有这些过量的加工食品和糖，并失去我们的微生物组多样性，我们可能不会在生命的早期有一个良好的开始。
I think we really want to keep our car off and running right from the get-go.
我想我们真的想让我们的车从一开始就保持关闭状态并运行。
It's a little bit late for some of us, because we're probably a little bit hardwired, although I think we can tune that.
对于我们中的一些人来说有点晚了，因为我们可能有点硬连线，尽管我认为我们可以调整这一点。
I try to do that as best I can, I guess.
我想我会尽力做到这一点。
Andrew Huberman: Seem to be doing a good job.
Andrew Huberman：看起来做得不错。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Well, anyway, we'll do it the best we can, so.
好吧，无论如何，我们会尽力而为，所以。
Andrew Huberman: When I travel, I will occasionally take a probiotic, in addition to all the other things I'm doing to support my gut microbiome.
Andrew Huberman：当我旅行时，除了我正在做的所有其他事情来支持我的肠道微生物组之外，我偶尔也会服用益生菌。
I do take a supplement to support gut microbiome.
我确实服用补充剂来支持肠道微生物组。
I also try and eat lots of fruits and vegetables.
我也尝试吃大量的水果和蔬菜。
I will say I'm very intrigued by these fiber data.
我想说我对这些光纤数据非常感兴趣。
Michael Snyder: Okay.
迈克尔·斯奈德：好的。
Michael Snyder: Okay.
迈克尔·斯奈德：好的。
Andrew Huberman: The different types of fiber data.
Andrew Huberman：不同类型的光纤数据。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I'm intrigued because I notice that some vegetable foods just don't agree with me, even if I'm careful to chew them properly and do all that.
Andrew Huberman：我很感兴趣，因为我注意到有些蔬菜食物就是不适合我，即使我小心翼翼地正确咀嚼它们并做到这一切。
And I find that over time, I've just oriented towards eating the same six to eight vegetables.
我发现随着时间的推移，我只是倾向于吃同样的六到八种蔬菜。
But I'm tempted to do the following experiment.
但我很想做下面的实验。
Tell me if this is a good experiment, Snyder, if I'd get a shot at a sabbatical in your lab.
告诉我这是否是一个好的实验，斯奈德，我是否可以在你的实验室休假。
Keep eating the same thing I'm eating, exercise the same, do things the way I'm doing them now, but try a supplement, like you said, Metamucil, which is one particular type of fiber, and do the before and after LDL cholesterol, ApoB, blood glucose regulation with a continuous glucose monitor.
继续吃我现在吃的东西，做同样的运动，按照我现在做的方式做事，但尝试一种补充剂，就像你说的，Metamucil，这是一种特殊类型的纤维，并用连续血糖监测仪进行前后的 LDL 胆固醇、ApoB、血糖调节。
Then stop, do a washout, swap that out for increasing, like, inulin fiber through some other source.
然后停下来，进行清洗，将其换成通过其他来源增加菊粉纤维等。
So in other words, add in a pure fiber source on top of an existing diet and see how that impacts blood metrics and subjective well-being.
换句话说，在现有饮食的基础上添加纯纤维来源，看看这如何影响血液指标和主观幸福感。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Michael Snyder: Yeah, I think that would be good.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的，我认为那会很好。
I'd love to know your microbiome.
我很想知道你的微生物组。
And these are the sorts of things we're trying to sort out now.
这些就是我们现在正在努力解决的问题。
I don't have an answer, but I imagine the microbes you have in you, they have certain hydrolases that break down these fibers.
我没有答案，但我想象你体内的微生物，它们有某些水解酶可以分解这些纤维。
And everybody's microbiome is very, very different.
每个人的微生物组都非常非常不同。
So, we have communities of microbes and every person's community is different.
所以，我们有微生物群落，每个人的群落都是不同的。
And so they...
所以他们...
We have these enzymes, hydrolases, that do break down these fibers, and my guess is that we already know that yours is going to be different from mine.
我们有这些酶，水解酶，可以分解这些纤维，我的猜测是我们已经知道你的会与我的不同。
And so maybe if you eat a certain fiber, you're not as prepared to handle it as the next person.
因此，也许如果您吃了某种纤维，您就不会像下一个人那样准备好处理它。
So, this is why we need to collect the right data.
因此，这就是我们需要收集正确数据的原因。
And it may be at the end where you need to add the right probiotic, the right microbe to go with that fiber to better get the tuning you're looking for.
最后，您可能需要添加正确的益生菌、正确的微生物来配合纤维，以更好地获得您想要的调节效果。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: And in the long run, if you probably want permanent incubation of this probiotic into your gut, you might actually have to add a community because they're all interdependent.
迈克尔·斯奈德：从长远来看，如果您可能希望这种益生菌在您的肠道中永久孵化，您实际上可能需要添加一个社区，因为它们都是相互依赖的。
They get personalized, again, early, and so you basically formed your own personal guild.
他们很早就变得个性化了，所以你基本上组建了自己的个人公会。
And so one problem with probiotics is that they don't stick that well.
因此，益生菌的一个问题是它们的粘附性不太好。
A lot of them wash out.
很多都洗掉了。
Although when a prolonged use can help colonize some of that, it may be possible.
尽管长期使用可以帮助其中一些定植，但这是可能的。
Anyway-
无论如何——
Andrew Huberman: And they cover some and they're expensive.
Andrew Huberman：他们涵盖了一些，而且价格昂贵。
They require refrigeration most of them.
大多数都需要冷藏。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Michael Snyder: Yeah, that's right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的，没错。
Andrew Huberman: I personally feel fortunate that I don't have what I would consider chronic gut issues.
Andrew Huberman：我个人感到幸运的是，我没有出现我认为的慢性肠道问题。
I just avoid certain foods.
我只是避免某些食物。
Michael Snyder: Yeah, but are you avoiding it because you're getting inflammation?
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的，但是你是因为发炎而避免这样做吗？
You said some don't agree with you.
你说有些人不同意你的观点。
Is that because of gas or is that because of inflammation?
是因为气体还是因为炎症？
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Andrew Huberman: It's more of an inflammatory response.
Andrew Huberman：这更多的是一种炎症反应。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Like, I just kind of feel...
安德鲁·休伯曼：就像，我只是觉得......
like you don't feel well and you feel kind of overtaken by some process, which that's what I'm...
就像你感觉不舒服，你感觉有点被某种过程所超越，这就是我......
This is a poor man's very extract to inflammation.
这是穷人对炎症的非常提取物。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Michael Snyder: But if you could figure out which fibers might be inducing that specifically, maybe you can avoid those foods with those fibers.
迈克尔·斯奈德：但如果你能找出哪些纤维可能会具体诱导这种情况，也许你可以避免那些含有这些纤维的食物。
I don't know.
我不知道。
And again, fiber seems to be very personalized.
再说一遍，纤维似乎非常个性化。
So, I think it is something you can try.
所以，我认为这是你可以尝试的事情。
It's a pretty easy experiment to do.
这是一个非常容易做的实验。
I think most people like the idea of fibers...
我想大多数人都喜欢纤维的想法......
Again, we like to do individual fibers because ultimately, I want to understand the effect of every fiber and make combinations that would be personalized for people.
同样，我们喜欢制作单独的纤维，因为最终，我想了解每种纤维的效果，并做出适合人们个性化的组合。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: But, if you were to get apple fiber or oatmeal, yes, it's got a lot of Metamucil and arabinoxylan, but it has other things in there too.
迈克尔·斯奈德：但是，如果你要吃苹果纤维或燕麦片，是的，它含有大量的 Metamucil 和阿拉伯木聚糖，但它也含有其他成分。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: And it's probably true that the combinatorics are important.
迈克尔·斯奈德：组合数学可能确实很重要。
And we'll get there at some point with the combinatorics.
我们将在某个时候通过组合学达到这一目标。
I am a big data guy.
我是一个大数据人。
I like the idea with eight billion people on the planet, if we even got 1% of those doing food logging with sugar monitors and things like that, we'd have a lot of the combinatorics all figured out.
我喜欢这个地球上有 80 亿人口的想法，如果我们只有 1% 的人用糖监测器和类似的东西进行食物记录，我们就会弄清楚很多组合数学。
Andrew Huberman: Well, you've got 100 people in your lab.
Andrew Huberman：嗯，你的实验室里有 100 个人。
You're running clinical trials all the time, right?
你一直在进行临床试验，对吧？
Your human subject requirements are big.
你的人文学科要求很高。
Maybe we'll provide a link to where people can participate in some of these studies.
也许我们会提供一个链接，让人们可以参与其中一些研究。
Michael Snyder: Yeah, we have studies running all the time.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的，我们一直在进行研究。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Because I know a number of people will be interested to do that.
因为我知道很多人会有兴趣这样做。
And we're going to talk more about sensors and air quality.
我们将更多地讨论传感器和空气质量。
We've got a bit more to cover in each domain, but I think it's really important.
我们在每个领域都有更多内容需要讨论，但我认为这非常重要。
And thank you for breaking up this broad category that we've all heard about, fiber, into meaningful categories.
感谢您将我们都听说过的纤维这个广泛的类别分解为有意义的类别。
And just even people's understanding that different people react differently to different fibers is really important.
即使人们了解不同的人对不同的纤维有不同的反应也非常重要。
A family member of mine was told that they need to take Metamucil to get more fiber, had zero impact on their LDL, zero impact on other important markers.
我的一位家人被告知，他们需要服用 Metamucil 来获取更多纤维，对低密度脂蛋白的影响为零，对其他重要标志物的影响为零。
I might suggest to them that they consider taking a different fiber supplement in an effort to control their-
我可能会建议他们考虑服用不同的纤维补充剂，以控制他们的-
Michael Snyder: Great.
迈克尔·斯奈德：太好了。
Michael Snyder: All right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：好的。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Michael Snyder: Mm-hmm.
迈克尔·斯奈德：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Michael Snyder: Maybe for them, inulin will be the trick.
迈克尔·斯奈德：也许对他们来说，菊粉会是诀窍。
Andrew Huberman: Great.
安德鲁·休伯曼： 太好了。
This is the first I'd heard of it, well, when I was listening to one of your talks.
这是我第一次听说它，当时我正在听你的一次演讲。
It's a good thing you have 100 people in your lab.
实验室里有 100 个人是件好事。
By the way, folks, having a hundred person lab is exceedingly rare.
顺便说一句，伙计们，拥有一百人的实验室是非常罕见的。
Michael Snyder: Well, we're a little smaller now, but yeah, we're still a good bunch, yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：嗯，我们现在规模小了一些，但是，是的，我们仍然是一群很好的人，是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Well, it's very impressive.
嗯，这非常令人印象深刻。
Andrew Huberman: Your vigor is undeniable.
Andrew Huberman：你的活力是不可否认的。
Michael Snyder: I'm just lucky to have amazing people in my lab.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我很幸运在我的实验室里有很棒的人。
I consider myself very fortunate.
我认为自己非常幸运。
Andrew Huberman: Well, I will say, not just because you're sitting here, I'm not just saying it to be kind.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯，我会说，不仅仅是因为你坐在这里，我这么说不仅仅是出于善意。
Many people in your lab have reached out for reasons related to collaborations, et cetera, and everyone in your lab speaks extremely highly of you and working with you which is not always the case in large laboratories or small ones, but they adore you.
您实验室中的许多人出于合作等原因与您联系，实验室中的每个人都对您以及与您合作的评价非常高，这在大型实验室或小型实验室中并不总是如此，但他们很崇拜您。
Andrew Huberman: I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function.
Andrew Huberman：我想稍微休息一下，并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。
Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.
去年，在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我成为了 Function 成员。
Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health.
Function 提供 100 多项高级实验室测试，为您提供整个身体健康状况的关键快照。
This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more.
此快照为您提供有关心脏健康、激素健康、免疫功能、营养水平等方面的见解。
Andrew Huberman: They've also recently added tests for toxins, such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics and tests for PFASs, or forever chemicals.
Andrew Huberman：他们最近还增加了毒素测试，例如有害塑料中的 BPA 暴露以及 PFAS 或永久化学物质的测试。
Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas.
Function 不仅提供对您的身心健康至关重要的 100 多种生物标记物的测试，而且还分析这些结果并提供相关领域专家的顶级医生的见解。
For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood.
例如，在我第一次使用 Function 进行测试时，我发现我的血液中汞含量升高。
Andrew Huberman: Function not only helped me detect that, but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC and acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification.
Andrew Huberman：功能不仅帮助我发现了这一点，而且还提供了如何最好地降低汞含量的见解，其中包括限制我的金枪鱼摄入量，我一直在吃大量金枪鱼，同时还努力多吃绿叶蔬菜并补充 NAC 和乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都可以支持谷胱甘肽的产生和解毒。
And I should say, by taking a second Function test, that approach worked.
我应该说，通过进行第二次功能测试，这种方法奏效了。
Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important.
全面的血液检测至关重要。
There's so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test.
有很多与您的心理和身体健康相关的事情只能通过血液检查来检测。
Andrew Huberman: The problem is, blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated.
Andrew Huberman：问题是，血液检测一直非常昂贵且复杂。
In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost.
相比之下，Function 的简单性和成本水平给我留下了深刻的印象。
It is very affordable.
这是非常实惠的。
As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.
因此，我决定加入他们的科学顾问委员会，我很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。
If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Function，可以访问 functionhealth.com/huberman。
Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman Podcast listeners.
Function 目前有超过 250,000 人的等候名单，但他们正在为 Huberman 播客听众提供早期访问服务。
Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.
同样，可以通过 functionhealth.com/huberman 提前访问 Function。
Andrew Huberman: I'd like to talk about organ aging and organ health as a separable set of features from general aging and general health.
Andrew Huberman：我想谈谈器官衰老和器官健康，作为一组独立于一般衰老和一般健康的特征。
I think you were one of the first people that I ever heard say, "Listen, our organs don't all age at the same rate." Just like most people eventually die because some organ goes first, and then it cascades into other things, we need to start thinking about organ health in the same way we think about organ disease.
我想你是我听到的第一批这样说的人之一：“听着，我们的器官衰老的速度并不相同。”就像大多数人最终会因为某些器官先死亡而死亡一样，然后它会级联成其他器官，我们需要开始像思考器官疾病一样思考器官健康。
We need to start thinking about organ age as an independent thing.
我们需要开始将器官年龄视为一个独立的事物。
Michael Snyder: Okay.
迈克尔·斯奈德：好的。
Andrew Huberman: Like, maybe my liver is much older than my heart at a genetic level, at a functional level.
安德鲁·休伯曼：也许我的肝脏在基因水平和功能水平上都比我的心脏古老得多。
What are your thoughts on this?
您对此有何看法？
And how can we start to parse organ age?
我们如何开始解析器官年龄？
So, I'd like you to comment on that.
所以，我希望你对此发表评论。
And also perhaps this idea that we just age linearly is not correct, that maybe that there are some cliffs, that come about at kind of particular phases of life.
也许我们只是线性衰老的想法是不正确的，也许存在一些悬崖，出现在生命的特定阶段。
Can you talk about these things?
你能谈谈这些事情吗？
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Michael Snyder: Yeah, let me tell you a little how we got into this.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的，让我告诉你我们是如何进入这个领域的。
So, we set up...
所以，我们设立...
It comes from my philosophy that I think medicine is broken.
这源于我的哲学：我认为医学已经被打破了。
We tend to do sick care rather than health care.
我们倾向于进行疾病护理而不是医疗保健。
So we started, when I moved to Stanford now 16 years ago, this idea maybe we should...
所以我们开始了，当我 16 年前搬到斯坦福大学时，这个想法也许我们应该......
First of all, you don't measure people very much when they're healthy.
首先，当人们健康时，你不会对其进行太多的衡量。
You don't measure them very often.
您不经常测量它们。
Michael Snyder: It started with me, but the goal was to do a bigger group, which we did profiling people, collecting as much data as possible while they're healthy.
迈克尔·斯奈德：它是从我开始的，但目标是建立一个更大的团队，我们对人们进行分析，在他们健康的情况下收集尽可能多的数据。
So people would give blood, their microbiome, all, urine, and we would take these and do what's called omics measurement, where you'd make as many measurements from their blood as possible, on top of deep clinical measurements using all these new tools.
因此，人们会提供血液、他们的微生物组、所有尿液，我们会采取这些并进行所谓的组学测量，在使用所有这些新工具进行深度临床测量的基础上，您可以从他们的血液中进行尽可能多的测量。
Michael Snyder: And we would do it every three months, and we'd do it while they're healthy.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我们每三个月就会做一次，而且我们会在他们健康的时候做一次。
If they got ill, like from a viral infection, things like that, we would take more samples to be able to collect more carefully to see what was going on when they first got ill.
如果他们生病了，比如病毒感染之类的，我们会采集更多样本，以便能够更仔细地收集，看看他们第一次生病时发生了什么。
And so we've been running this study on me now for about 15 and a half years, and for this group of people about almost 12 and a half years.
因此，我们对我进行这项研究已有大约 15 年半的时间，对这组人进行这项研究大约有 12 年半的时间。
So, we've been profiling this group of people.
因此，我们一直在对这群人进行分析。
Some have dropped off by now because it takes a lot of energy to be part of one of that particular study.
有些人现在已经放弃了，因为参与一项特定研究需要花费大量精力。
But anyway, others have come in, and so yeah, we've been running this for some time.
但无论如何，其他人已经加入进来，所以是的，我们已经运行了一段时间了。
And the idea is to see what a healthy profile looks like.
我们的想法是看看健康的形象是什么样的。
How does it change over time, which we interpret as aging.
它如何随着时间的推移而变化，我们将其解释为衰老。
You know, what happens when people first get ill?
你知道，当人们第一次生病时会发生什么？
And we are very enamored by these technologies.
我们非常迷恋这些技术。
Michael Snyder: In fact, we invented some of them, our lab did, for these omics technologies, like something called RNA-Seq, where we can measure all your transcripts, and we have ways of following all your proteins with protein chips and things like that.
Michael Snyder：事实上，我们的实验室为这些组学技术发明了其中一些技术，比如所谓的 RNA-Seq，我们可以测量你所有的转录本，并且我们有办法用蛋白质芯片之类的东西来跟踪你的所有蛋白质。
So, our lab did invent a lot of these, they're called omics technologies.
所以，我们的实验室确实发明了很多这样的技术，它们被称为组学技术。
So, it's ways of collecting big data from again, your blood, your urine, and even your microbiome.
因此，这是从您的血液、尿液甚至微生物组中收集大数据的方法。
Michael Snyder: And so we basically sequenced people's genome, made all these measurements, and followed them over time.
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以我们基本上对人们的基因组进行了测序，进行了所有这些测量，并随着时间的推移进行跟踪。
Oh, and I was going to say we were also curious whether we could use some of these technologies like genome sequencing and this method for measuring transcripts, RNA-Seq, and things for better, you know, maybe managing people's health.
哦，我想说的是，我们也很好奇是否可以使用其中一些技术，例如基因组测序和这种测量转录本的方法、RNA-Seq 以及更好的东西，你知道，也许可以管理人们的健康。
And then we brought in the wearables when they were first fitness trackers.
然后我们在可穿戴设备最初是健身追踪器时引入了它们。
Michael Snyder: We thought, "Well, maybe they're a little more interesting than just fitness trackers," so we put them on for health monitoring.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我们想，“好吧，也许它们比健身追踪器更有趣”，所以我们把它们戴上进行健康监测。
And I can tell when we started, there was a big controversy at the time.
我可以看出，当我们开始的时候，当时存在很大的争议。
A lot of the physicians did not like us sequencing the genomes of healthy people.
许多医生不喜欢我们对健康人的基因组进行测序。
This shows when we...
这表明当我们...
It was right after genome sequencing was first coming out.
那是在基因组测序首次问世之后。
And they were worried we were going to turn everybody into hypochondriacs, it's going to cost millions of dollars, and most people have warmed up to it now, not 100%.
他们担心我们会让每个人都患上忧郁症，这将花费数百万美元，而且大多数人现在已经习惯了，但不是 100%。
A lot of people still don't like that.
很多人仍然不喜欢这样。
They still don't like the wearables.
他们仍然不喜欢可穿戴设备。
Michael Snyder: I'm sure we'll talk about that.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我确信我们会讨论这个问题。
But, anyway, we did show that a lot of people learn some pretty important things from their genome.
但是，无论如何，我们确实表明很多人从他们的基因组中学到了一些非常重要的东西。
One young guy, turned out he had a mutational heart gene, and his father died right around the time we sequenced his genome.
一个年轻人被发现有一个突变的心脏基因，而他的父亲就在我们对他的基因组进行测序的时候去世了。
His father died of a heart problem, and sure enough, he has a heart defect that was uncovered by his genome sequence.
他的父亲死于心脏病，果然，他的基因组序列发现他患有心脏缺陷。
So, we had examples like that.
所以，我们有这样的例子。
And then same with the wearables uncovered things.
然后可穿戴设备也发现了同样的事情。
All kinds of things popped up.
各种各样的事情都出现了。
Actually, 49 people had what we would call major health discovery just in the first three and a half years of running the study, and somewhere-
事实上，在这项研究的前三年半里，有 49 个人有了我们所说的重大健康发现，并且在某个地方——
Andrew Huberman: With the wearables?
Andrew Huberman：通过可穿戴设备？
Michael Snyder: With all kinds of things.
迈克尔·斯奈德：各种各样的事情。
That was the thing.
就是这样。
It was no one technology.
这不是一项技术。
What we're doing is we're getting a much more complete picture of people's health.
我们正在做的是更全面地了解人们的健康状况。
And we discovered these things then before they have symptoms.
我们在这些事情出现症状之前就发现了它们。
So we're profiling people while they're healthy, and we're looking for things that might be off.
因此，我们在人们健康的时候对他们进行分析，并寻找可能有问题的地方。
And so the way I like, the analogy I like to use is that if your health is a thousand-piece jigsaw puzzle, the way, when you go to a physician's office today, we would say they measure five or six of those thousand pieces.
所以我喜欢的方式，我喜欢使用的类比是，如果你的健康是一个一千块拼图，那么，当你今天去医生办公室时，我们会说他们测量了这千块中的五到六块。
They just don't get a very good picture.
他们只是没有得到很好的图片。
We're trying to measure five or 600 pieces, get a much clearer picture.
我们正在尝试测量 5 或 600 件，以获得更清晰的图片。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: And so 49 people, we uncovered something pre-symptomatically, caught someone with early lymphoma, two people with pre-cancer, two people with serious heart issues, one from the genome sequencing, one from the wearables.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我们在 49 个人中发现了一些症状前的情况，其中一人患有早期淋巴瘤，两人患有癌症前期，两人有严重的心脏问题，一人来自基因组测序，一人来自可穿戴设备。
So...
所以...
Andrew Huberman: This is part of a study.
Andrew Huberman：这是一项研究的一部分。
Has this been commercialized?
这个已经商业化了吗？
Michael Snyder: Well-
迈克尔·斯奈德：嗯-
Andrew Huberman: If I want to RNA-seq or DeepSeq or...
Andrew Huberman：如果我想要 RNA-seq 或 DeepSeq 或......
This is, by the way, just nomenclature.
顺便说一句，这只是术语。
If I want to look at mutations I might have, or how healthy or how sick different organs or cells of mine are, what's available to me nowadays?
如果我想查看我可能有的突变，或者我的不同器官或细胞的健康程度或患病程度，现在我可以使用什么？
Michael Snyder: Yeah, so we spun off a medical version of this.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的，所以我们衍生出了这个的医学版本。
This is Q Bio that does whole-body MRI, which most people will tell you today, most physicians will tell you, you should not do that.
这是做全身 MRI 的 Q Bio，今天大多数人会告诉你，大多数医生会告诉你，你不应该这样做。
Andrew Huberman: Oh, well, let's pause there for a second because I will say I've done a Prenuvo scan.
Andrew Huberman：哦，好吧，让我们暂停一下，因为我会说我已经完成了 Prenuvo 扫描。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: They're not a sponsor of the podcast.
Andrew Huberman：他们不是播客的赞助商。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: But I did a Prenuvo scan.
Andrew Huberman：但我做了 Prenuvo 扫描。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And-
安德鲁·休伯曼：而且——
Michael Snyder: What'd you think?
迈克尔·斯奈德：你觉得怎么样？
Andrew Huberman: I thought it was great.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为这很棒。
I watched the first segment of a documentary on Netflix while my body got scanned.
我在 Netflix 上观看了一部纪录片的第一部分，同时对我的身体进行了扫描。
I'm not claustrophobic, so going into the tube was no big deal.
我没有幽闭恐惧症，所以进入管道没什么大不了的。
I got to see...
我得看看...
Thankfully, I think you're allowed one white spot on the brain per decade of life.
值得庆幸的是，我认为每十年的生命中大脑上都会有一个白点。
I'm approaching 50 in a few months.
再过几个月我就快50岁了。
I've got, so up to five would be okay.
我有，所以最多五个就可以了。
I've got one little one, which is good because I did some high-impact sports early in my life and some martial arts where I got hit in the head, and I don't recommend doing that, folks.
我有一个小家伙，这很好，因为我早年做过一些高影响力的运动和一些武术，我的头部被击中，我不建议这样做，伙计们。
So, I was a little worried about that.
所以，我对此有点担心。
Michael Snyder: Okay.
迈克尔·斯奈德：好的。
Andrew Huberman: I learned that my intravisceral fat is very low, so I was relieved to see that.
Andrew Huberman：我得知我的内脏脂肪非常低，所以我很欣慰地看到这一点。
Michael Snyder: Great.
迈克尔·斯奈德：太好了。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And for the most part, it provided a useful baseline.
Andrew Huberman：在很大程度上，它提供了一个有用的基线。
Andrew Huberman: A good friend of mine since childhood, who's a chair of neurosurgery, not at Stanford, but at a nearby university told me that it is not uncommon for him, like on a monthly basis, someone will reach out saying, "Hey, I went in for a whole-body MRI and discovered that I've got a tumor on my optic chiasm," or, "I've got a small glioma." And you said physicians don't like that people are getting these whole-body MRIs.
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：我从小的一个好朋友，他是神经外科主任，不是在斯坦福大学，而是在附近的一所大学，他告诉我，这对他来说并不罕见，就像每个月，有人会伸出援手说，“嘿，我去做全身核磁共振检查，发现我的视交叉上有一个肿瘤”，或者“我有一个小神经胶质瘤。”你说医生不喜欢人们接受全身核磁共振检查。
Andrew Huberman: I'll set him out as an example of a physician who appreciates that people are doing this.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我将把他作为一个欣赏人们这样做的医生的例子。
Now then again he's a surgeon.
现在他又是一名外科医生。
Surgeons like to cut.
外科医生喜欢切割。
He's perhaps one of the finest neurosurgeons in the world.
他也许是世界上最优秀的神经外科医生之一。
I think all the neurosurgeons I've spoken to, admire him tremendously.
我想所有与我交谈过的神经外科医生都非常钦佩他。
Michael Snyder: I love it.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我喜欢它。
Andrew Huberman: But I agree that many physicians don't like the idea of people getting scanned because that means they get calls of concerned, quote unquote, "hypochondriacs." But in my mind, that speaks to the deficits of the medical community, not to the deficits of these scanning technologies, right?
安德鲁·休伯曼：但我同意许多医生不喜欢人们接受扫描的想法，因为这意味着他们会接到有关“疑病症患者”的电话。但在我看来，这说明了医学界的缺陷，而不是这些扫描技术的缺陷，对吧？
I mean-
我的意思是——
Michael Snyder: 100% agree.
迈克尔·斯奈德：100%同意。
Andrew Huberman: If you step back from it, it's kind of crazy, right?
Andrew Huberman：如果你退后一步，那就有点疯狂了，对吧？
Like, doctors...
比如，医生...
I mean, if we just made it completely, aemotional, it's more business for them if somebody has problems.
我的意思是，如果我们完全做到情感化，那么如果有人遇到问题，对他们来说就更有意义了。
So, that doesn't square with their response.
所以，这与他们的反应并不相符。
There's something about people advocating for their own health exploration, controlling their own health exploration, that really seems to vex a lot of doctors.
人们提倡自己的健康探索，控制自己的健康探索，这似乎确实让很多医生感到烦恼。
They don't like it.
他们不喜欢它。
And it doesn't make any sense to me.
这对我来说没有任何意义。
Like, wouldn't you want your patients to be health-minded?
就像，您不希望您的患者有健康意识吗？
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Michael Snyder: I think it's part of the broken healthcare system.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我认为这是破碎的医疗保健系统的一部分。
They have 15 minutes to spend with you.
他们有 15 分钟时间与您相处。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Michael Snyder: So when people show up with their...
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以当人们带着他们的......
I mean, the number one concern about whole-body MRIs is they'll find nodules, right?
我的意思是，全身 MRI 的第一个问题是它们会发现结节，对吗？
If you go high enough resolution, you're guaranteed to find nodules.
如果分辨率足够高，一定能找到结节。
Men having them in the prostate, women their ovaries, if you go high enough resolution 100% of the time.
如果你 100% 的分辨率足够高，那么男性的前列腺中有细胞，女性的卵巢有细胞。
Then people show up and say, "Well, I got these nodules." And, you know-
然后人们出现并说：“好吧，我得到了这些结节。”而且，你知道——
Andrew Huberman: Yes.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Nodules are cell growths, and they can be benign cell growths.
Andrew Huberman：结节是细胞生长，它们可以是良性细胞生长。
Michael Snyder: Yeah or they're just not even growing.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的，或者他们根本就没有成长。
They're just there.
他们就在那里。
They may have showed up early in life.
他们可能很早就出现了。
And I mentioned I've had 20 of these things, and I have nine nodules.
我提到我已经有 20 个这样的东西了，我有 9 个结节。
And the point is that it's not whether you have nodules or not.
关键是你是否有结节并不重要。
Do you have any growing nodules?
您有正在生长的结节吗？
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Right.
安德鲁·休伯曼：对。
Right.
正确的。
Michael Snyder: And that's the key.
迈克尔·斯奈德：这就是关键。
And if you've never done a baseline, you'll never know if they're growing.
如果你从未做过基线，你永远不会知道它们是否在增长。
So I'm happy to say none of my nine nodules that have been spotted are growing.
所以我很高兴地说我发现的九个结节都没有生长。
And I know that.
我知道这一点。
And you probably have seen a similar situation, but a friend of mine woke up one day and couldn't move his arm.
你可能也见过类似的情况，但我的一个朋友有一天醒来，手臂无法动弹。
And so they rushed him to the emergency room.
于是他们把他送往急诊室。
They scanned the relevant area.
他们扫描了相关区域。
They saw he had a tumor on his spine, so they took it out, and things seemed fine.
他们看到他的脊椎上有一个肿瘤，所以他们把它切除了，一切看起来都很好。
Then they did a whole-body MRI follow-up later, and they found three more nodules.
后来他们又做了全身核磁共振随访，又发现了三个结节。
Andrew Huberman: Relieved to hear that.
安德鲁·休伯曼：听到这个消息我松了一口气。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: So the question is, were they there to begin with, or had his tumor metastasized?
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以问题是，他们一开始就在那里，还是他的肿瘤已经转移了？
No way to know.
没办法知道。
They had no baseline.
他们没有底线。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: So, I think having these baselines is super important for everyone.
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以，我认为拥有这些基线对每个人来说都非常重要。
Andrew Huberman: I think people balk at the cost.
Andrew Huberman：我认为人们对成本犹豫不决。
So it's about, as I recall, it's about $2,000 to get one of these whole-body scans.
我记得，做一次全身扫描大约需要 2,000 美元。
I think we can assume that the cost is going to come down, just as everything whole-genome sequencing is going to come down.
我认为我们可以假设成本将会下降，就像所有全基因组测序都会下降一样。
Maybe even insurance would cover it at some point.
也许在某个时候甚至保险也会承保。
It's so trivially easy to do once you have a place that will do it that if the cost were to come down, I think you'd save tons and tons of lives.
一旦你有一个可以做到这一点的地方，这件事就变得非常容易，如果成本下降，我认为你会拯救无数的生命。
I see it as a boon to the medical industry, not just for making money, but for improving people's health.
我认为这对医疗行业来说是一个福音，不仅仅是为了赚钱，也是为了改善人们的健康。
Michael Snyder: Correct.
迈克尔·斯奈德：正确。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Andrew Huberman: As you said, when you go to the doctor, they put a thermometer in your mouth, they take your blood pressure, take your height, take your weight, ask you a few questions, ask you if anything's changed, and then it's almost like better off just calling them up on the phone at this point.
安德鲁·休伯曼：正如你所说，当你去看医生时，他们会把温度计放在你的嘴里，测量你的血压，测量你的身高，测量你的体重，问你几个问题，问你是否有任何变化，然后现在最好直接打电话给他们。
You can do all of that stuff at home.
你可以在家里做所有这些事情。
Michael Snyder: You can.
迈克尔·斯奈德：你可以。
And in fact, we should be doing that stuff at home anyway.
事实上，无论如何我们都应该在家里做这些事情。
We can talk about that later.
我们可以稍后再讨论。
But yeah, what Q Bio does is they do whole body MRI, and they've designed ways that they can do it in about 40 minutes, 35 to 40 minutes.
但是，是的，Q Bio 所做的是进行全身 MRI，并且他们设计了可以在大约 40 分钟、35 到 40 分钟内完成的方法。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: So it saves a lot of time.
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以它节省了很多时间。
And then they also do some, a medical version of what I was telling you before.
然后他们也会做一些事情，这是我之前告诉你的医学版本。
They don't do, for example, the transcriptome, the RNA-seq stuff, some of that, because they have set it up in a way that it's actionable information because you can then take the data to your physician, who will know what to do with it.
例如，他们不做转录组、RNA-seq 之类的事情，因为他们已经将其设置为可操作的信息，因为你可以将这些数据带给你的医生，他会知道如何处理它。
Andrew Huberman: Hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Great.
安德鲁·休伯曼： 太好了。
Michael Snyder: And yeah, it turns out, just like you were saying, just from the first 100-plus people, they discovered early ovarian cancer, all pre-symptomatically, just like in our study of the 49 people, they found cardiovascular conditions that were pretty serious.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的，事实证明，就像你说的那样，仅仅从前 100 多人中，他们就发现了早期卵巢癌，而且都是在出现症状之前，就像我们对 49 个人的研究一样，他们发现了相当严重的心血管疾病。
They found even early pancreatic cancer, which is almost never found early.
他们甚至发现了几乎从未在早期发现的早期胰腺癌。
Michael Snyder: And so they discovered these things, and sometimes it was by the longitudinal measurements, they saw things shift.
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以他们发现了这些东西，有时是通过纵向测量，他们看到了事情的变化。
Sometimes what we call multivariate, they'd see several things shifting.
有时我们称之为多元，他们会看到一些事情发生变化。
We discovered that then as well.
我们当时也发现了这一点。
But we might see one thing off, and you'd say, "Well, I don't know," but when you see three things all going in the same direction, you worry about that.
但我们可能会看到一件事完成，你会说，“好吧，我不知道”，但当你看到三件事都朝着同一个方向发展时，你就会担心。
And a good example is if you go to a physician today and your glucose is high, and it's normally been low, and it might spike up.
一个很好的例子是，如果您今天去看医生，您的血糖很高，而通常很低，并且可能会升高。
Michael Snyder: They'll say, "Well, you know, were you ill yesterday or something like that?
迈克尔·斯奈德：他们会说，“嗯，你知道，你昨天生病了吗？
Oh, that explains it.
哦，这就解释了。
Let's ignore it.
我们忽略它吧。
Come back in two years." And that's just not enough.
两年后回来吧。”但这还不够。
And yeah, and that might've been a clue for something big, and we've seen that in our study.
是的，这可能是重大事件的线索，我们在研究中已经看到了这一点。
We'll see somebody who shifted off in their liver enzymes, and they'll come to me and say, "Mike, I'm still in the normal range, even." And this is why we're big on baselines.
我们会看到有人的肝酶发生了变化，他们会来找我说：“迈克，我什至仍然在正常范围内。”这就是我们重视基线的原因。
Michael Snyder: That's a big theme in our work, know what your healthy baseline is, like the MRIs.
Michael Snyder：这是我们工作的一个重要主题，了解您的健康基线是什么，就像 MRI 一样。
And they'll be running in the low end of a normal range for their liver enzyme, and suddenly it'll double but still be in the normal range.
他们的肝酶将在正常范围的低端运行，突然它会翻倍，但仍处于正常范围内。
And they'll call me up and say, "Hey, what's going on here?" I'll say, "I don't know.
他们会打电话给我说：“嘿，这是怎么回事？”我会说：“我不知道。
Why don't you go get another measurement?" Sure enough, then they shifted out of normal.
你为什么不去再测量一下呢？”果然，然后他们就变得不正常了。
So, I think the trajectories of these measurements is key.
因此，我认为这些测量的轨迹是关键。
I think knowing how you're progressing is a big deal, and that's how we need to think.
我认为了解自己的进展情况很重要，这就是我们需要思考的方式。
Michael Snyder: Just like your car, if you see something going off, you want to see it when you catch the first symptoms, not once your car is broken down on the side of the road, the engine's blown up or something.
迈克尔·斯奈德：就像你的车一样，如果你看到有什么东西出了问题，你希望在出现第一个症状时就看到它，而不是当你的车在路边抛锚、发动机爆炸或其他什么情况时。
So, I think that's how we have to shift medicine.
所以，我认为这就是我们必须改变医学的方式。
Andrew Huberman: Amen to that, 1,000 times over.
Andrew Huberman：阿门，1000 遍以上。
Let's talk about some of the sensors you're wearing and what people can monitor now.
让我们谈谈您佩戴的一些传感器以及人们现在可以监控的内容。
Michael Snyder: Sure.
迈克尔·斯奈德：当然。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: We talked about continuous glucose monitors, and that's non-invasive.
Andrew Huberman：我们讨论了连续血糖监测仪，这是非侵入性的。
I mean, you don't even feel it going in.
我的意思是，你甚至感觉不到它进去了。
It's just basically a sticker-sized thing.
它基本上只是一个贴纸大小的东西。
But what are some of the other things...
但还有哪些其他的事情...
Most people are familiar now with sleep tracking.
现在大多数人都熟悉睡眠追踪。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Andrew Huberman: And of course, that's pulling heart rate data and a few other things.
Andrew Huberman：当然，这会提取心率数据和其他一些数据。
But yeah, walk us through what's possible now with non-invasive, trackers, and maybe just let us know which particular ones you're wearing.
但是，是的，请向我们介绍一下现在使用非侵入式追踪器可以实现什么，也许只是让我们知道您佩戴的是哪些特定的追踪器。
Michael Snyder: Sure.
迈克尔·斯奈德：当然。
Michael Snyder: Sure.
迈克尔·斯奈德：当然。
Andrew Huberman: This isn't like a promotion of particular products.
Andrew Huberman：这不像是特定产品的促销。
I'm just very curious.
我只是很好奇。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Andrew Huberman: You're armed to the teeth with sensors here, so what do you got?
Andrew Huberman：你已经用传感器武装到了牙齿，那么你有什么？
Michael Snyder: I'm a big measurement guy, obviously.
迈克尔·斯奈德：显然，我是一个很擅长测量的人。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, well, you're a Stanford faculty after all, so.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：是的，好吧，你毕竟是斯坦福大学的教员，所以。
Michael Snyder: All right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：好的。
So, this is my Fitbit.
这是我的 Fitbit。
This is my Apple Watch.
这是我的苹果手表。
And then I happen to have a company that's called Sensomics that has two different...
然后我碰巧有一家名为 Sensomics 的公司，它有两种不同的……
This is a new one they have out, and then the older one.
这是他们推出的新的，然后是旧的。
And so they all measure heart rate, heart rate variability, and reasonably accurate, meaning, you know, not that far off.
因此，它们都测量心率、心率变异性，而且相当准确，这意味着，你知道，相差并不远。
And so again, for the listeners, resting heart rate, everybody knows, and...
再说一次，对于听众来说，静息心率，每个人都知道，而且......
But heart rate variability is an important measurement and more and more appreciated these days.
但心率变异性是一项重要的测量指标，并且如今越来越受到重视。
When you're ill, your variability drops.
当你生病时，你的变异性就会下降。
And both those are fairly accurate these days for most devices.
如今，对于大多数设备来说，这两种方法都相当准确。
Oh, and I have a ring.
哦，我还有一枚戒指。
This one happens to be a Circle.
这个恰好是一个圆圈。
I used to wear an Oura Ring.
我曾经佩戴过大浦戒指。
And-
还有——
Andrew Huberman: It's not an Oura Ring?
Andrew Huberman：这不是大浦环？
Which one is that?
那是哪一个？
Michael Snyder: It's called Circle.
迈克尔·斯奈德：它的名字叫“Circle”。
They're different parameters, so there's no right or wrong to this.
它们是不同的参数，因此没有对错之分。
Same thing, you have to match it to your lifestyle.
同样的，你必须将它与你的生活方式相匹配。
Some, you charge them while you're in the shower, they're charged for five days, and others you have to charge for an hour, hour and a half to keep it going.
有些是在洗澡时充电，有些可以充电五天，有些则必须充电一个小时、一个半小时才能继续使用。
So, you have to find the one that works best for you.
因此，您必须找到最适合您的一种。
I do think wearing them overnight, it's a great time for health monitoring.
我确实认为佩戴它们过夜是进行健康监测的好时机。
So, I'm a big fan of that.
所以，我非常喜欢它。
Anyway, they measure that.
不管怎样，他们会衡量这一点。
Some measure blood oxygen.
有些测量血氧。
Michael Snyder: Some of that's accurate, some of it's not accurate.
迈克尔·斯奈德：有些是准确的，有些是不准确的。
Depends on the device.
取决于设备。
Some measure skin temperature.
有些测量皮肤温度。
Again, some of that's accurate, some of it's not.
再说一遍，其中有些是准确的，有些则不准确。
Depends on the device.
取决于设备。
They also measure something called galvanic stress response.
他们还测量称为电流应力反应的东西。
Some do.
有些是这样的。
That's conductance on your skin, and that is not something we normally measure in a doctor's office, but it turns out has value for our hydration.
这是皮肤的电导率，这不是我们通常在医生办公室测量的东西，但事实证明它对我们的水合作用有价值。
Like when you're diabetic, you'll have drier skin, and I should've figured this out earlier when I first became diabetic.
就像当你患有糖尿病时，你的皮肤会变得干燥，当我第一次患上糖尿病时，我应该早点意识到这一点。
I got itchy because my skin got dry.
我因为皮肤干燥而发痒。
Anyway, you can measure that with your smartwatch, and get that in real time.
无论如何，您可以使用智能手表进行测量，并实时获取。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: The galvanic skin response.
Andrew Huberman：皮肤电反应。
Michael Snyder: Yeah, and also it's a measure of stress.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的，这也是压力的衡量标准。
When you're stressed, you sweat more, and so you can pick that up as well with these devices.
当你有压力时，你会出汗更多，所以你也可以通过这些设备来发现这一点。
So there's a fair number of things, and then some of them you can measure an EKG, and sleep, of course super important.
所以有很多事情，其中一些你可以测量心电图，还有睡眠，当然非常重要。
Their accuracy for the stages is still questionable.
他们的阶段准确性仍然值得怀疑。
It depends on the device.
这取决于设备。
They're getting better though.
不过他们正在好转。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I use an Eight Sleep, and I'm now in the habit of only looking at the data every few days.
Andrew Huberman：我使用八睡眠，现在我习惯每隔几天查看一次数据。
Michael Snyder: Okay.
迈克尔·斯奈德：好的。
Andrew Huberman: Because I'm doing an experiment on myself where I measure my subjective feelings of rest and alertness and energy and compare it to the data, and the only way to do that properly is to not glance at the data first thing in the morning.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：因为我正在自己做一个实验，测量我对休息、警觉性和精力的主观感受，并将其与数据进行比较，而正确做到这一点的唯一方法就是不要在早上第一件事就看数据。
Michael Snyder: Okay.
迈克尔·斯奈德：好的。
Andrew Huberman: Right?
安德鲁·休伯曼：对吗？
Because it just biases how you feel.
因为它只会影响你的感受。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Andrew Huberman: Our colleague Ali Crum at Stanford has done some nice experiments where they tell people after a genuinely poor night's sleep, they got a great sleep, or they tell people after a great night's sleep they got poor sleep, and they show them a sleep score, and they give them some data, and it's false data basically.
Andrew Huberman：我们在斯坦福大学的同事 Ali Crum 做了一些很好的实验，他们告诉人们在经历了一个真正糟糕的夜晚睡眠后，他们睡得很好，或者他们告诉人们在睡了一晚好觉之后他们的睡眠很差，并向他们展示了睡眠分数，并给了他们一些数据，这基本上是错误的数据。
And people's levels of alertness, well-being, et cetera are strongly biased by what they are told their sleep was like as opposed to what it was actually like.
人们的警觉性、幸福感等水平很大程度上取决于他们被告知的睡眠情况，而不是实际情况。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: This is a big deal, right, and I think speaks to all the beautiful studies that Ali's done because she finds stuff like this all the time in nutrition and well-being, and these mindset effects are really powerful.
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：这是一件大事，对吧，我认为这说明了阿里所做的所有出色的研究，因为她一直在营养和健康方面发现类似的东西，这些心态影响非常强大。
So, I look at my sleep data maybe once every two or three days.
所以，我可能每两三天查看一次我的睡眠数据。
Michael Snyder: Right, right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对，对。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Andrew Huberman: And I'm constantly striving to get more REM sleep.
Andrew Huberman：我一直在努力获得更多的快速眼动睡眠。
By the way, warming your sleeping environment in the last two hours of sleep will dramatically increase the amount of REM sleep you get.
顺便说一下，在睡眠的最后两个小时加热你的睡眠环境会显着增加你的快速眼动睡眠时间。
I learned that trick from Matt Walker, and it works spectacularly well.
我从马特·沃克那里学到了这个技巧，而且效果非常好。
Michael Snyder: I'll have to give it a try.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我必须尝试一下。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, Matt taught me that trick, and I'm getting close to two and a half hours of REM sleep now.
Andrew Huberman：是的，马特教了我这个技巧，我现在的快速眼动睡眠时间已经接近两个半小时了。
Michael Snyder: Wow.
迈克尔·斯奈德：哇。
Andrew Huberman: And I only sleep about six and a half, seven hours to feel rested.
Andrew Huberman：我只睡大约六个半、七个小时才能感到休息。
Michael Snyder: Nice.
迈克尔·斯奈德：很好。
Andrew Huberman: So it's pretty spectacular.
Andrew Huberman：所以这非常壮观。
Michael Snyder: I've got to try it.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我必须尝试一下。
Andrew Huberman: I thank Matt for that tip.
Andrew Huberman：我感谢马特的建议。
Michael Snyder: It's one of my biggest weaknesses.
迈克尔·斯奈德：这是我最大的弱点之一。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Michael Snyder: I don't sleep that well.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我睡得不太好。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, so cools bed in the beginning of the night, and then the opposite toward morning.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，所以在入夜时床会变凉，然后到早上则相反。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
I do do that.
我确实这样做。
Michael Snyder: Interesting.
迈克尔·斯奈德：有趣。
Andrew Huberman: And so Matt taught me that trick, and it's like, whoa.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以马特教了我这个技巧，就像，哇。
It's completely-
这完全是——
Michael Snyder: That is so cool.
迈克尔·斯奈德：那太酷了。
Andrew Huberman: I now emerge from sleep feeling so much better.
Andrew Huberman：我现在从睡眠中醒来感觉好多了。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Andrew Huberman: Unless I was having a disturbing dream, in which case you've got to go think about something else.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：除非我做了一个令人不安的梦，在这种情况下你必须去考虑别的事情。
But in any case, the sleep trackers, right?
但无论如何，睡眠追踪器，对吗？
On the Eight Sleep, because the tracker is stationary, it's fixed to the mattress, my understanding is that it's more accurate than if the tracker is on a limb where you could be moving, because that will disrupt sleep stage measurement.
在八睡眠中，因为跟踪器是固定的，所以它固定在床垫上，我的理解是，它比跟踪器安装在您可能移动的肢体上更准确，因为这会扰乱睡眠阶段的测量。
But I don't know if that's actually true or not.
但我不知道这是否属实。
Michael Snyder: I don't know.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我不知道。
I haven't measured it, and I haven't looked at the data on that.
我没有测量过，也没有看过这方面的数据。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: So what about HRV?
Andrew Huberman：那么 HRV 又如何呢？
We're hearing more and more that HRV is perhaps even more interesting than resting heart rate.
我们越来越多地听到 HRV 可能比静息心率更有趣。
Michael Snyder: I think it probably is.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我想可能是这样。
Andrew Huberman: What are some things that we can do to improve our HRV?
Andrew Huberman：我们可以采取哪些措施来改善 HRV？
What should our HRV be?
我们的 HRV 应该是多少？
How much control do we have over HRV range?
我们对 HRV 范围有多少控制权？
This kind of thing.
这种事。
Michael Snyder: Well, exercise is supposed to be one of the best ways to do this.
迈克尔·斯奈德：嗯，锻炼应该是做到这一点的最佳方法之一。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: Again, I'm not a cardiologist.
迈克尔·斯奈德：再说一遍，我不是心脏病专家。
I'm not an expert there.
我不是那里的专家。
I don't know for sure, but I know personally, keeping my stress down and sleeping better seems to help.
我不确定，但我个人知道，减轻压力和睡得更好似乎有帮助。
I've noticed that.
我注意到了这一点。
Andrew Huberman: That makes sense.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这是有道理的。
Michael Snyder: Recently, yeah, in one of these AI programs.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的，最近在其中一个人工智能项目中。
Again, happens to come from January.
再次，恰好来自一月份。
They take all your data, bring it in, and they were looking at this, and my HRV, believe it or not, went up, like, 28% or some incredible number.
他们把你所有的数据带进来，他们正在研究这个，不管你信不信，我的 HRV 上升了，比如 28% 或一些令人难以置信的数字。
Andrew Huberman: Wow.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哇。
Michael Snyder: Yeah, and I was trying to figure out what it was due to, and I think I'm sleeping better actually.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的，我试图找出原因，而且我认为我实际上睡得更好了。
Andrew Huberman: Are you a meditator?
安德鲁·休伯曼：你是冥想者吗？
Michael Snyder: No. I used to, and I know I need to make more time.
迈克尔·斯奈德：不。我曾经这样做过，而且我知道我需要腾出更多时间。
In some sense, maybe my bike ride's the equivalent of that at the end of the day.
从某种意义上说，也许我的自行车骑行就相当于一天结束时的骑行。
And on the weekends, I try and do a little bit of gardening.
在周末，我尝试做一点园艺。
That's my form.
这就是我的形式。
Andrew Huberman: Oh, fun.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哦，有趣。
Michael Snyder: I am a big believer you need some form of calmness, and I used to meditate for, like, five minutes after exercise.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我坚信你需要某种形式的平静，我过去常常在运动后冥想五分钟。
I need to get back to that for sure.
我确实需要回到这个话题。
Andrew Huberman: There's some interesting data on...
Andrew Huberman：有一些有趣的数据......
Just maybe give this a try as an experiment.
也许可以尝试一下作为一个实验。
Periodically throughout the day, just do a deliberate, until lung's empty, exhale, which activates the vagal pathway to the sinoatrial node, slows your heart rate down.
全天定期进行一次刻意的呼气，直到肺部排空，呼气会激活通往窦房结的迷走神经通路，减慢心率。
Michael Snyder: Uh-huh.
迈克尔·斯奈德：嗯。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Andrew Huberman: There's evidence that will improve your HRV both in waking and sleep states.
Andrew Huberman：有证据表明，无论是清醒状态还是睡眠状态，HRV 都会得到改善。
Michael Snyder: Is that right?
迈克尔·斯奈德：是这样吗？
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, just try it out.
Andrew Huberman：是的，试试吧。
See what you think.
看看你的想法。
Michael Snyder: So one minute every day or-
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以每天一分钟或者-
Andrew Huberman: No, no, no. Just periodically throughout the day, just remember to dump all your air, as the free divers would say.
安德鲁·休伯曼：不，不，不。就像自由潜水员所说的那样，一天中定期地排出所有空气即可。
Just...
只是...
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Really long exhale which will slow your heart rate.
Andrew Huberman：非常长的呼气，这会减慢你的心率。
Michael Snyder: I haven't tried the breathing stuff.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我还没有尝试过呼吸的东西。
Yeah.
是的。
A lot of people are saying that's really good.
很多人都说这真的很好。
Andrew Huberman: You just intersperse it so there's no breath work.
Andrew Huberman：你只需将其分散，这样就不需要呼吸。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Andrew Huberman: You don't have to set aside time.
Andrew Huberman：你不必留出时间。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I'll ask you something different related to stress.
Andrew Huberman：我会问你一些与压力有关的问题。
It goes back to some sleep data.
这可以追溯到一些睡眠数据。
You seem to love your work.
看来你很热爱你的工作。
Michael Snyder: Oh, I love it.
迈克尔·斯奈德：哦，我喜欢它。
Andrew Huberman: Before we came in here, you're like, "I love my job." You know?
安德鲁·休伯曼：在我们来到这里之前，你会说，“我热爱我的工作。”你知道？
There are really interesting data out of the sleep lab at Stanford that show that positive next-day anticipation is one of the strongest determinants of sleep quality.
斯坦福大学睡眠实验室的一些非常有趣的数据表明，对第二天的积极预期是睡眠质量最有力的决定因素之一。
Michael Snyder: Oh, I didn't know that.
迈克尔·斯奈德：哦，我不知道。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: And that it really does seem to be that if you are excited about your life, you can get by with less sleep, because the amount of quality sleep you get is higher.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：如果你对自己的生活感到兴奋，你可以通过减少睡眠来度过，因为你获得的睡眠质量更高。
Michael Snyder: Oh.
迈克尔·斯奈德：哦。
Michael Snyder: Okay.
迈克尔·斯奈德：好的。
Andrew Huberman: So maybe you don't need to meditate.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以也许你不需要冥想。
You just need to continue to do what you love.
你只需要继续做你喜欢的事情。
Michael Snyder: Maybe.
迈克尔·斯奈德：也许吧。
Yeah.
是的。
No, I do love what I do, and for me, there's no better rush than a great result.
不，我确实热爱我所做的事情，对我来说，没有什么比取得好成绩更好的匆忙了。
I'm an academic at heart.
我本质上是一名学者。
We spin off the companies to try to get, I think, the things we're doing, you know, I hope, out to a broader group of people.
我认为，我们分拆这些公司是为了让我们正在做的事情，我希望，能够惠及更广泛的人群。
And also as a way of showing the stuff really works and that it's not all BS that you're doing in a lab.
这也是一种展示这些东西确实有效的方式，而且这并不全是你在实验室里做的废话。
So, I do love what I do.
所以，我确实热爱我所做的事情。
And I don't know.
我不知道。
I'm very fortunate.
我很幸运。
I have amazing people in my lab, as I mentioned before, who they come up with a lot of the ideas.
正如我之前提到的，我的实验室里有很多很棒的人，他们提出了很多想法。
I view us as a team that tries to push forward on these various things.
我认为我们是一个努力推动这些不同事情的团队。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: I try to create an open environment where people aren't afraid to share ideas and push things forward.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我试图创造一个开放的环境，让人们不害怕分享想法并推动事情向前发展。
Yeah.
是的。
Anyway, I realize we got away from the organ aging part.
不管怎样，我意识到我们已经摆脱了器官老化的问题。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Michael Snyder: If you want to go back to that.
迈克尔·斯奈德：如果你想回到那个话题。
Andrew Huberman: Let's go back to that, and then I would like to also get back to psychological factors in mental health.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：让我们回到那个话题，然后我还想回到心理健康中的心理因素。
Michael Snyder: On the aging, I mentioned how we're doing all these measurements and tracking people over time.
迈克尔·斯奈德：关于老龄化，我提到了我们如何进行所有这些测量并随着时间的推移跟踪人们。
We've now been doing this for over 12 years on those 109.
我们在这 109 个项目上这样做已经超过 12 年了。
Some have dropped off, as I say, and new ones have hopped on.
正如我所说，有些已经消失，而新的已经加入。
And what we discovered by just looking at the healthy time points, is that people, you know, they do change over time, even in the healthy times, but they're all changing differently, meaning we look at the biochemical pathways.
通过观察健康的时间点，我们发现，人们确实会随着时间的推移而发生变化，即使是在健康的时期，但他们的变化都是不同的，这意味着我们会观察生化途径。
Michael Snyder: Some will have their top biochemical pathway, dilated cardio myopathy pathway changing an...
迈克尔·斯奈德：有些人的顶级生化途径、扩张型心肌病途径会改变……
Or sorry, that was hypertrophic cardiomyopathy signaling pathway shifted.
或者抱歉，这是肥厚型心肌病信号通路发生了变化。
Other people, it's metabolic.
其他人，这是新陈代谢。
Some are immune.
有些是免疫的。
We call these ageotypes, aging pathways.
我们将这些年龄型称为衰老途径。
Michael Snyder: And I kind of like that a little bit better than organ aging because some of the things you pick up are like oxidative stress, which go across lots of organs, or you know, inflammatory, inflammation, that's kind of cross-organ as well.
迈克尔·斯奈德：与器官衰老相比，我更喜欢这一点，因为你感受到的一些东西就像氧化应激，它会穿过许多器官，或者你知道，炎症，炎症，这也是跨器官的。
So we call these ageotypes, aging patterns that we see, and it turns out everybody's different.
所以我们把这些称为年龄型，即我们看到的衰老模式，结果发现每个人都是不同的。
Michael Snyder: So some people will be the cardio, some people will be the metabolic, some are liver, some are kidney, based on the markers we see in the blood, and some are immune, and some are all of the above or parts thereof.
迈克尔·斯奈德：根据我们在血液中看到的标记，有些人是有氧运动的，有些人是代谢性的，有些人是肝脏的，有些人是肾脏的，有些人是免疫的，有些人是上述全部或部分。
So we're all different.
所以我们都是不同的。
Michael Snyder: And what's cool about it, is it's actionable information, meaning a metabolic ager, when you actually see how they're shifting, and again, I have another company involved in this, they do this micro-sampling I'm sure we'll get into, where they measure your metabolic patterns.
迈克尔·斯奈德：它的酷之处在于它是可操作的信息，意味着代谢老化，当你真正看到它们如何变化时，我还有另一家公司参与其中，他们进行微采样，我相信我们会进入，他们测量你的代谢模式。
And by the way, we think your metabolome is the best way to see these shifts of all the different...
顺便说一句，我们认为你的代谢组是观察所有不同的这些变化的最佳方式......
Michael Snyder: Proteome is good too, and my colleague, Tony Wyss-Coray, he basically has looked at this organ aging stuff as well from proteomics, meaning group of proteins.
Michael Snyder：蛋白质组也很好，我的同事 Tony Wyss-Coray，他基本上也从蛋白质组学（即蛋白质组）的角度研究了器官衰老的问题。
He's followed this, and same thing, you can follow these ageotypes, if you will, these aging patterns, and the information's totally actionable.
他遵循了这一点，同样的事情，如果你愿意的话，你可以遵循这些年龄类型，这些衰老模式，并且这些信息是完全可行的。
You can see, as I say, for the metabolic ager, some of the folks seeing this, they lost weight or they exercised, and they improved their patterns.
正如我所说，你可以看到，对于新陈代谢时代的人来说，一些人看到了这一点，他们减肥或锻炼，并且改善了自己的模式。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: Now, I'm not saying they got younger, but they did improve their ageotypes.
迈克尔·斯奈德：现在，我并不是说他们变得更年轻，但他们确实改善了他们的年龄型。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: And so I think the information is very actionable, and so again, and this is one where we commercialize because it's a very simple test.
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以我认为这些信息非常具有可操作性，因此，这是我们商业化的地方，因为这是一个非常简单的测试。
You can get these little drops of blood, mail it in, and they'll profile 650 metabolites, and the information is actionable, they make recommendations, and it's not just, "Exercise more, eat better," but very, very specific.
你可以获取这些小滴血液，将其邮寄出去，他们会分析 650 种代谢物，这些信息是可操作的，他们会提出建议，这不仅仅是“多锻炼，吃得更好”，而是非常非常具体。
Andrew Huberman: What is the name of this company?
安德鲁·休伯曼：这家公司的名称是什么？
Michael Snyder: It's called Iollo, I-O-L-L-O.
迈克尔·斯奈德：它的名字叫 Iollo，I-O-L-L-O。
Andrew Huberman: And this is now commercially available?
Andrew Huberman：这现在已经可以商业化了吗？
Michael Snyder: It is.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: So if I want to figure out my ageotype...
Andrew Huberman：所以如果我想弄清楚我的年龄型......
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Andrew Huberman: Did I get that right?
安德鲁·休伯曼：我说对了吗？
My ageotype, I can do that by sending in a few drops of blood, and it will tell me...
我的年龄型，我可以通过送几滴血来做到这一点，它会告诉我......
Michael Snyder: Correct.
迈克尔·斯奈德：正确。
Michael Snyder: They'll send you a kit.
迈克尔·斯奈德：他们会给你寄一个工具包。
It's a very special kit, because not any...
这是一个非常特别的套件，因为没有任何...
Like, putting things on cellulose is not the best way to save your blood.
就像，将东西放在纤维素上并不是拯救血液的最佳方法。
Anyway, it's a special kit, you mail it in.
不管怎样，这是一个特殊的套件，你邮寄吧。
Yeah, no, with something called metabolomics and mass spectrometry you can profile.
是的，不，通过代谢组学和质谱分析，您可以进行分析。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: It's a targeted assay, 650 metabolites, and they cover all these areas, and most of it's in the scientific literature.
Michael Snyder：这是一种有针对性的检测，有 650 种代谢物，它们涵盖了所有这些领域，其中大部分都在科学文献中。
It's just not in the clinical labs, like things around your kidney function, your heart, things like this.
它只是不在临床实验室中，就像肾功能、心脏等方面的东西一样。
And they give you these profiles, and they say, "These are normal.
他们给你这些资料，他们说：“这些都是正常的。
These are going off." And then they can even predict your, again, biological age.
这些正在消失。”然后他们甚至可以再次预测你的生物年龄。
So you may know your biological age is not necessarily your chronological age or age in years.
因此，您可能知道您的生物学年龄不一定是您的实际年龄或以岁为单位的年龄。
Michael Snyder: And if things are off and maybe a not so good direction, you can actually take action.
迈克尔·斯奈德：如果事情进展顺利，而且方向可能不太好，你实际上可以采取行动。
You can say, "Well, all right, my inflammation's fine.
你可以说：“好吧，我的炎症好了。
But my heart age is off." And they can give you very specific recommendations to do around that.
但我的心脏年龄已经过时了。”他们可以为您提供非常具体的建议来解决这个问题。
Or if it's kidney, again, same thing.
或者如果是肾脏，同样的事情。
"Maybe eat more of certain things and avoid other things."
“也许多吃某些东西，避免其他东西。”
Andrew Huberman: Cool.
安德鲁·休伯曼：酷。
I'm going to try it.
我要尝试一下。
So let's talk about biological age, because I think the first time I heard about the concept of measuring one's biological age versus chronological age was from David Sinclair when he was referencing Horvath clocks.
那么让我们来谈谈生物年龄，因为我认为我第一次听说测量一个人的生物年龄与实际年龄的概念是从 David Sinclair 那里听到的，当时他引用了 Horvath 时钟。
That was some years ago.
那是几年前的事了。
And then, of course, Bryan Johnson likes to boast his biological age.
当然，布莱恩·约翰逊喜欢吹嘘自己的生理年龄。
He has a biological age competition, I think, online with some folks.
我认为他在网上与一些人进行了生物年龄竞赛。
Andrew Huberman: And then there are also folks like my friend Peter Attia, who will be very direct in telling you that he doesn't think much of biological age when it's a number to assess whole body age.
安德鲁·休伯曼：还有像我的朋友彼得·阿提亚这样的人，他会非常直接地告诉你，当生物年龄是评估全身年龄的数字时，他并不太重视生物年龄。
I won't use the words that he uses, but he doesn't think it's worth anything at all, frankly, as a measure.
我不会使用他使用的词语，但坦率地说，他认为这根本不值得作为衡量标准。
But here you're talking about something distinctly different.
但在这里你谈论的是完全不同的东西。
You're talking about the progression of aging of different organs or different organ systems.
你说的是不同器官或不同器官系统的衰老进程。
Michael Snyder: I think the Horvath clocks are correct.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我认为霍瓦斯时钟是正确的。
Meaning they do measure biological age, but the problem is it's not actionable.
这意味着他们确实测量了生物年龄，但问题是它不可行。
What do you do?
你做什么工作？
Your methylation pattern, that's a modification of DNA, has shifted, and it gives you an overall value, but what do you do with that?
你的甲基化模式，即 DNA 的修饰，已经发生了变化，它给了你一个整体价值，但你用它做什么呢？
You don't know...
你不知道...
Yeah.
是的。
And they can predict something called "GrimAge" these days, your time to death, your mortality.
如今他们可以预测一种叫做“GrimAge”的东西，你的死亡时间，你的死亡率。
Andrew Huberman: Oh, nice.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哦，很好。
Michael Snyder: Same thing.
迈克尔·斯奈德：同样的事情。
I mean, what are you going to do with that?
我的意思是，你打算用它做什么？
What's special about the ageotypes is that they're breaking it down.
年龄型的特别之处在于它们正在分解它。
And so they say, "All right.
所以他们说：“好吧。
Your immune age is off.
你的免疫年龄已过。
You can do X." "Your other, you know, your oxidative stress is off.
你可以做 X。” “你的另一个，你知道，你的氧化应激已经消失。
You do Y." So it's basically actionable information, so I think it makes all the difference.
你做Y。”所以这基本上是可操作的信息，所以我认为这很重要。
And it conceptually makes a lot of sense too.
从概念上讲，它也很有意义。
It's like your car.
就像你的车一样。
Michael Snyder: I know I keep coming back to that analogy, but your car gets older, but certain parts wear out first.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我知道我不断地回到这个类比，但你的车会变旧，但某些零件会首先磨损。
You don't replace...
你不换...
Well, maybe some people do, they replace their whole car, but generally, you would fix the parts that are wearing, and ideally you'd catch it before they break, and I think that's how we think of ageotypes.
好吧，也许有些人会这样做，他们更换了整辆车，但一般来说，你会修理磨损的零件，理想情况下你会在它们损坏之前抓住它，我认为这就是我们对年龄类型的看法。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: You can go in, and so I mentioned this company earlier, Iollo.
Michael Snyder：你可以进去，所以我之前提到过这家公司，Iollo。
What they do is they're tracking your ageotypes, because they're doing these deep metabolic profiles, and they actually make...
他们所做的是跟踪你的年龄型，因为他们正在做这些深层代谢概况，他们实际上使......
They use AI.
他们使用人工智能。
They pull in things and make very specific recommendations.
他们收集信息并提出非常具体的建议。
And then you can...
然后你可以...
They'll tell you exact foods to eat and things like that.
他们会告诉你具体要吃的食物之类的。
And 95% of people improve their markers.
95% 的人提高了他们的分数。
Michael Snyder: Again, I'm not going to say they're getting younger, but at least they're improving their metabolic markers in the right direction.
迈克尔·斯奈德：再说一次，我不会说他们变得更年轻，但至少他们正在朝着正确的方向改善他们的代谢标志物。
And so it's actionable information, and it makes a lot of sense.
所以这是可操作的信息，而且很有意义。
Andrew Huberman: How powerful a role do genetics play in determining potential lifespan?
Andrew Huberman：遗传学在决定潜在寿命方面发挥着多大的作用？
Shortly before starting this discussion, I looked at the chart of longest living humans.
在开始讨论之前不久，我查看了最长寿人类图表。
They're all deceased now, but I think the record is 122 years and some change.
现在他们都去世了，但我认为记录是122年，而且有些变化。
Michael Snyder: And some people think she may have cheated, but it's not clear.
迈克尔·斯奈德：有些人认为她可能作弊了，但这还不清楚。
Andrew Huberman: Oh, really?
安德鲁·休伯曼：哦，真的吗？
That was a Frenchwoman.
那是一个法国女人。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Michael Snyder: Yeah, that's right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的，没错。
Andrew Huberman: 120 plus or minus five years seems to be kind of what people consider a spectacularly long life.
Andrew Huberman：120 岁上下的五年似乎是人们认为的非常长的寿命。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
That's right.
没错。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Michael Snyder: And that does seem to be the cap.
迈克尔·斯奈德：这似乎确实是上限。
And so most of our research is built around extending health span.
因此，我们的大部分研究都是围绕延长健康寿命展开的。
It is the case that for lifespan in general, it's estimated to be about 16% of your lifespan's due to genetics.
就一般寿命而言，估计大约有 16% 是由遗传因素决定的。
Andrew Huberman: One-sixth?
安德鲁·休伯曼：六分之一？
Michael Snyder: One-sixth.
迈克尔·斯奈德：六分之一。
Andrew Huberman: That's it?
安德鲁·休伯曼：就这样？
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Now there's a big error bar on that.
现在有一个很大的误差线。
That comes from twin studies and family studies.
这来自双胞胎研究和家庭研究。
So although it's thought that for people who live to be 100 or older, then it might be higher.
因此，尽管人们认为对于活到 100 岁或以上的人来说，这个数字可能会更高。
Some people have said 60%.
有人说60%。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: So to live to be really long, you may need good genes in general.
迈克尔·斯奈德：因此，要想活得长久，一般来说，你可能需要良好的基因。
But there's still a lot there, right?
但还有很多，对吧？
There's another 40% that's due to lifestyle.
另外 40% 是由于生活方式造成的。
But for the average person, it's only one-sixth.
但对于普通人来说，只有六分之一。
So your lifestyle is by far your biggest factor.
所以你的生活方式是迄今为止最重要的因素。
And you look at people in these Blue Zones, these areas where people...
你看看这些蓝色区域的人们，这些区域的人们......
Tthere's an enrichment for people who live to be 100 or more.
对于活到 100 岁或以上的人来说，这是一种财富。
They have several things in common.
他们有几个共同点。
Michael Snyder: One is they tend to eat a diet with not much ultra-processed foods or processed foods in general.
迈克尔·斯奈德：一是他们的饮食习惯中一般不含有太多的超加工食品或加工食品。
And generally, they tend to be towards the Mediterranean vegan kind of diet.
一般来说，他们倾向于地中海纯素饮食。
Andrew Huberman: They eat animal proteins, as I understand, but it's more fish and chicken.
安德鲁·休伯曼：据我了解，他们吃动物蛋白，但更多的是鱼和鸡肉。
Michael Snyder: Yeah, that's correct.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的，没错。
Andrew Huberman: And less red meat.
Andrew Huberman：少吃红肉。
Michael Snyder: Less...
迈克尔·斯奈德：少一点……
Yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊。
Andrew Huberman: And they're eating a lot of vegetables.
安德鲁·休伯曼：他们吃很多蔬菜。
Michael Snyder: Yes, for sure, and getting fiber through that as well.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的，当然，也可以通过它获取光纤。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: And then they tend to have...
迈克尔·斯奈德：然后他们往往......
They're fairly active, but their form of activity can vary, and they have really good social networks.
他们相当活跃，但他们的活动形式可能有所不同，而且他们拥有非常好的社交网络。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: So, either through family or through community networks.
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以，要么通过家庭，要么通过社区网络。
And so that's pretty clear.
所以这很清楚。
My prediction is they probably sleep pretty well, too.
我的预测是他们可能也睡得很好。
I don't know if that's been as well measured as the other parameters.
我不知道这是否和其他参数一样得到了很好的测量。
So I think you do need all of those things if you want to live a long, healthy life.
所以我认为如果你想健康长寿，你确实需要所有这些东西。
And that weight may vary from one person to the next.
而且每个人的体重可能有所不同。
And I think that's the kind of thing we want to look at.
我认为这就是我们想要关注的事情。
Michael Snyder: Again, I view people as a combination of things, their genetics, their epigenetics.
迈克尔·斯奈德：再说一次，我将人视为事物的组合，包括他们的遗传学和表观遗传学。
You know, I don't know if I told you all the details of when I became diabetic.
你知道，我不知道我是否告诉过你我患糖尿病的所有细节。
It was predicted from my genome.
这是根据我的基因组预测的。
Atul Butte actually predicted this from something called a polygenic risk score, these ways of analyzing genomes, and I'm at the extreme end.
阿图尔·布特实际上是通过一种叫做多基因风险评分的方法（这些分析基因组的方法）预测了这一点，而我处于极端的情况。
It doesn't work for most people, by the way.
顺便说一句，这对大多数人不起作用。
But I'm at the extreme end, that worked for me.
但我处于极端，这对我有用。
So he predicted I was high risk for diabetes, but I didn't become diabetic until after a viral infection.
所以他预测我患糖尿病的风险很高，但直到病毒感染后我才患上糖尿病。
Michael Snyder: It's a very strong correlation.
迈克尔·斯奈德：这是一种非常强的相关性。
And because I measure myself a lot, I figured this out.
因为我经常衡量自己，所以我发现了这一点。
It's respiratory syncytial virus, which, actually, you know, it's not that common in adults.
这是呼吸道合胞病毒，实际上，你知道，它在成年人中并不常见。
It's more common now, but...
现在这种情况更常见了，但是...
Anyway, I was literally in bed, which is a little unusual for me, and I got a very high temperature, and I wound up several weeks later becoming diabetic.
不管怎样，我确实躺在床上，这对我来说有点不寻常，而且我发烧了，几周后我患上了糖尿病。
It's very fascinating because we actually looked at the modification in my DNA.
这非常令人着迷，因为我们实际上观察了我 DNA 中的修饰。
Michael Snyder: It's called DNA methylation, and actually shifted in something like 100 metabolic genes in their control regions called the promoters.
Michael Snyder：这被称为 DNA 甲基化，实际上在称为启动子的控制区域中转移了大约 100 个代谢基因。
And so the thought is that I was genetically at risk, and then in combination with this viral infection, it's environmental, that's what triggered my diabetes.
所以我的想法是，我在遗传上处于危险之中，然后与这种病毒感染相结合，这是环境因素，这就是引发我糖尿病的原因。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: Now, I don't think that's true of most people.
迈克尔·斯奈德：现在，我认为大多数人都不是这样的。
We're tracking people, I may have mentioned.
我可能已经提到过，我们正在追踪人员。
In the first part of the study, we saw nine people become diabetic as we've been tracking them, and seven gradually became diabetic.
在研究的第一部分中，我们在追踪过程中看到九人患上了糖尿病，另外七人逐渐患上了糖尿病。
And so it was, you know, an accumulation of something.
所以，你知道，这是某种东西的积累。
But two people, one of which was me, something triggered it, meaning it kind of got there and stayed.
但是有两个人，其中之一是我，有某种东西触发了它，这意味着它到达那里并停留了下来。
It wasn't just a transient spike.
这不仅仅是短暂的峰值。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: And so how often you get these, they're called epigenetic modifications, happening is not so clear.
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以你多久会得到这些，它们被称为表观遗传修饰，发生的频率还不太清楚。
But it's now the case, you may know with COVID, 2 to 4% of people are becoming diabetic after COVID infection.
但现在的情况是，你可能知道，对于新冠病毒，2% 到 4% 的人在感染新冠病毒后会患上糖尿病。
So it's not unreasonable to think that they're having epigenetic changes like me that haven't been measured.
因此，认为他们像我一样发生了尚未测量的表观遗传变化并不是没有道理的。
That's something we'd like to pursue.
这是我们想要追求的目标。
Michael Snyder: But the effects of these viral infections and stuff, you may know, a lot of people get something called chronic fatigue syndrome after some adverse, say, pathogens.
迈克尔·斯奈德：但是，你可能知道，这些病毒感染之类的东西的影响，很多人在受到一些不利的病原体影响后会患上慢性疲劳综合症。
It's not always clear what's causing it.
造成这种情况的原因并不总是很清楚。
It seems to be different for different people.
对于不同的人来说似乎是不同的。
But the idea these intense stresses may be from a viral infection or other pathogen triggering some long-term chronic effects, is maybe more common than people realize.
但这种强烈的压力可能是由病毒感染或其他病原体引发的一些长期慢性影响的想法可能比人们意识到的更为普遍。
For autoimmune disease, for chronic fatigue syndrome, in my case, for diabetes, maybe, as I say, more prevalent than people realize.
对于自身免疫性疾病，对于慢性疲劳综合症，就我而言，对于糖尿病，也许，正如我所说，比人们意识到的更普遍。
Andrew Huberman: It's so interesting to think about viral infections setting off a bunch of things that are acute, like rise in temperature, GI tract disruption, et cetera.
Andrew Huberman：考虑病毒感染会引发一系列急性事件，例如气温升高、胃肠道破坏等，这是非常有趣的。
But then, as you said, longer term changes in genes related to metabolism, inflammation, and other pathways, setting a genetic predisposition in motion, kind of like flicking the domino that was already kind of tilted.
但正如你所说，与新陈代谢、炎症和其他途径相关的基因的长期变化，设置了运动中的遗传倾向，有点像弹动已经倾斜的多米诺骨牌。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Michael Snyder: Once again, that homeostatic system concept that you're...
迈克尔·斯奈德：再一次，你所说的稳态系统概念......
Yeah, maybe if your genetics is a little bit weaker...
是的，也许如果你的基因稍微弱一点的话......
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: We've noticed that, you know, we found a new, if you will, set of genes involved in ALS, and that those genes tend to be underexpressed in, you know, called iPSC-derived motor neurons are the relevant cell types for ALS patients.
Michael Snyder：我们注意到，如果你愿意的话，我们发现了一组与 ALS 相关的新基因，并且这些基因往往在称为 iPSC 衍生的运动神经元（与 ALS 患者相关的细胞类型）中表达不足。
Michael Snyder: So it may be that if your genetics is a little weaker in some areas than others, then other things could trigger that sort of thing.
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以，如果你的基因在某些方面比其他方面弱一些，那么其他事情可能会引发这种事情。
So I like that general concept that we're...
所以我喜欢这个总体概念，即我们...
And in some cases, maybe that's beneficial.
在某些情况下，这也许是有益的。
I'm not saying getting ALS is beneficial, but maybe we're attuned certain ways because, in ancient times, we had to deal with things like TB and stuff, and the idea that you would be...
我并不是说患上 ALS 是有益的，但也许我们在某些方面有所协调，因为在古代，我们必须处理诸如结核病之类的事情，并且认为你会……
Well, the classic is sickle cell, right?
嗯，最经典的是镰状细胞，对吧？
Folks with sickle cell mutations might be more resistant to malaria.
患有镰状细胞突变的人可能对疟疾具有更强的抵抗力。
So maybe some of this tuning helps you in some ways, but is adverse in other ways, or makes you more susceptible.
因此，也许这种调整在某些方面对您有帮助，但在其他方面却不利，或者使您更容易受到影响。
Let's put it that way.
这么说吧。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I've heard, you know, here and there, about data linking herpes virus to Alzheimer's, for instance.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，我听说过，例如，有关疱疹病毒与阿尔茨海默病之间联系的数据。
And you could imagine how it might not be directly related to the symptoms or the pathology of herpes virus, but that something about the neural inflammation caused on the trigeminal nerve, which is where the herpes virus lives...
你可以想象它可能与疱疹病毒的症状或病理学没有直接关系，而是与三叉神经引起的神经炎症有关，三叉神经是疱疹病毒生存的地方......
That's why people get cold sores or HSV-1, which is very common, I think.
这就是为什么人们会患上唇疱疹或 HSV-1，我认为这很常见。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Andrew Huberman: And most people just combat it, and they don't get cold sores.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：大多数人只是对抗它，他们不会患上唇疱疹。
Michael Snyder: Sure.
迈克尔·斯奈德：当然。
Andrew Huberman: But that something about the inflammation of that trigeminal nerve pathway, maybe it breaches the blood-brain barrier in certain people, and then it sets off a cascade that we eventually call Alzheimer's.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但是，三叉神经通路的炎症可能会突破某些人的血脑屏障，然后引发连锁反应，我们最终将其称为阿尔茨海默病。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Andrew Huberman: So these correlations, because that's really all that they are, and these multifactorial...
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以这些相关性，因为这就是它们的全部，而且这些多因素......
Michael Snyder: Correct.
迈克尔·斯奈德：正确。
Andrew Huberman: I think that the way you described it earlier is the best way.
Andrew Huberman：我认为你之前描述的方式是最好的方式。
You know, if you have a thousand-piece jigsaw puzzle, you want to know which pieces are slightly out of alignment or missing entirely.
您知道，如果您有一个一千块拼图游戏，您想知道哪些部分稍微不对齐或完全缺失。
But what we call diseases, like Alzheimer's, or autism, or diabetes, presumably are different combinations of puzzle pieces missing.
但我们所说的疾病，如阿尔茨海默氏症、自闭症或糖尿病，可能是缺失的拼图的不同组合。
Michael Snyder: I think so.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我想是的。
Andrew Huberman: And I think until now, medicine and the general public has been trained to think of diseases like, "Those puzzle pieces are missing," and that's what we call Alzheimer's.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：我认为到目前为止，医学界和公众已经接受了这样的训练：“这些拼图缺失了”，这就是我们所说的阿尔茨海默氏症。
That's what we call autism.
这就是我们所说的自闭症。
That's what we call diabetes.
这就是我们所说的糖尿病。
And what I'm realizing in talking to you today is that that's far too simplistic.
今天与您交谈时我意识到这太简单化了。
Michael Snyder: Yeah, I mean, there are cases-
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的，我的意思是，有一些案例-
Andrew Huberman: Like, it can't be that.
Andrew Huberman：不可能是这样。
It can't be that simple.
事情不可能那么简单。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Michael Snyder: That's correct.
迈克尔·斯奈德：没错。
Agood example would be Huntington's, right, where you have an expansion of a specific genetic locus.
亨廷顿舞蹈病就是一个很好的例子，对吧，其中特定基因位点发生了扩展。
There are elements that shift there.
有些元素在那里发生了变化。
And that's highly associated with Huntington's.
这与亨廷顿舞蹈症密切相关。
Those would be single condition things that trigger it.
这些都是触发它的单一条件。
And that does happen, but that's not most disease.
这种情况确实会发生，但这并不是大多数疾病。
That's more the exception than the rule.
这与其说是规则，不如说是例外。
And by the way, even in those cases, there are people that escape it.
顺便说一句，即使在这种情况下，也有人逃脱了。
Andrew Huberman: Oh, you have escapers?
安德鲁·休伯曼：哦，你们有逃亡者吗？
Michael Snyder: Yeah, who have somehow escaped that.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的，他们以某种方式逃脱了。
Andrew Huberman: Hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Michael Snyder: Not always understood, although they may hold clues to perhaps how others could be helped.
迈克尔·斯奈德：并不总是能理解，尽管它们可能掌握着如何帮助他人的线索。
Andrew Huberman: You mentioned ALS.
Andrew Huberman：您提到了 ALS。
We've not covered ALS on this podcast before, but just very briefly, my understanding is a few years ago, there was a lot of interest in SOD, in superoxide dismutase, an enzyme being involved in the degeneration of motor neurons, which is why ALS used to be called, Lou Gehrig's disease.
我们之前没有在这个播客中介绍过 ALS，但只是非常简单地介绍一下，我的理解是几年前，人们对 SOD、超氧化物歧化酶（一种参与运动神经元退化的酶）很感兴趣，这就是为什么 ALS 过去被称为卢伽雷氏病。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Andrew Huberman: Stephen Hawking had ALS, right?
安德鲁·休伯曼：史蒂芬·霍金患有肌萎缩侧索硬化症，对吗？
Michael Snyder: Absolutely.
迈克尔·斯奈德：当然。
Andrew Huberman: What is the role of superoxide dismutase, and is there anything protective in terms of behavior or supplementation, drugs that people can take to protect themselves against neurodegeneration of motor neurons or central neurons?
Andrew Huberman：超氧化物歧化酶的作用是什么？在行为或补充方面有什么保护作用吗？人们可以服用哪些药物来保护自己免受运动神经元或中枢神经元的神经变性？
You know, we talk a lot about what to do once it's started, but there's not a lot of discussion about how to protect your neurons just as a general theme.
您知道，我们谈论了很多关于一旦开始后该怎么做的问题，但并没有太多讨论如何保护神经元作为一般主题。
Like, protect the health of your neurons by doing or taking X.
例如，通过做或服用 X 来保护神经元的健康。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Well, first of all, I'm not an ALS expert.
嗯，首先，我不是 ALS 专家。
This is where my genetics came in.
这就是我的遗传学发挥作用的地方。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: We came up with new ways of analyzing genomes, and we applied it to ALS for reasons we thought might work.
Michael Snyder：我们提出了分析基因组的新方法，并将其应用于 ALS，因为我们认为可能有效。
Here, I just had an amazing postdoc, Sai Zhang, and a great collaborator, Johnathan Cooper-Knock, who basically sort of said, "Mike, this is a great problem to apply these new methods we have for analyzing."
在这里，我有一位出色的博士后张赛和一位出色的合作者乔纳森·库珀-诺克，他基本上说：“迈克，应用我们用于分析的这些新方法是一个很大的问题。”
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: So there were seven genes known, and we wound up finding 690 genes, and that's true with these new AI methods we have for analyzing genomes.
Michael Snyder：已知有 7 个基因，我们最终发现了 690 个基因，我们用于分析基因组的新人工智能方法也是如此。
And it explains a lot more what's called the heritability of the disease.
它更多地解释了所谓的疾病的遗传性。
And then, yeah, and that's how I got into it.
然后，是的，我就是这样进入的。
But I mean, there still is no cure for ALS.
但我的意思是，ALS 仍然无法治愈。
Michael Snyder: And how to modify lifestyle, I don't know, but I do know I'm on sabbatical at UC Irvine right now, and there are people who are trying to take this sort of thing on.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我不知道如何改变生活方式，但我知道我现在正在加州大学欧文分校休假，有些人正在尝试做这种事情。
We'll see how well it works.
我们将看看它的效果如何。
It is clear there is a study that if you overexercise, that's worse for you for ALS, but whether that helps you predict, I don't know.
很明显，有一项研究表明，如果您运动过度，患 ALS 的情况会更糟，但我不知道这是否有助于您预测。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: So I think it's still...
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以我认为它仍然是......
Yeah, not very much known there, at least not to me.
是的，那里不太了解，至少对我来说不是。
You may know more than I do.
你可能比我知道的更多。
Andrew Huberman: No, you know, I'm very interested in what one can do to protect against neurodegeneration.
安德鲁·休伯曼：不，你知道，我对如何预防神经退行性疾病非常感兴趣。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: The one that I'm very intrigued by, and here, I am not promoting this specifically for everybody, but years ago, and this is purely anecdotal, but years ago, I was in the office of Richard Axel at Columbia, Nobel Prize winner for discovering the molecular basis of olfaction, et cetera, and I observed what many people had told me I would observe, which is that he chewed no fewer than, like, six pieces of Nicorette in a 90-minute meeting, and I asked him, I said, "What's the deal?"
Andrew Huberman：我对此非常感兴趣，在这里，我并不是专门向所有人推销这一点，而是几年前，这纯粹是轶事，但是几年前，我在哥伦比亚大学理查德阿克塞尔的办公室里，他因发现嗅觉的分子基础等而获得了诺贝尔奖，我观察到了很多人告诉我我会观察到的情况，那就是他在 90 分钟内咀嚼了不少于六块尼古雷特。见面时，我问他，我说：“怎么了？”
Michael Snyder: Mm-hmm.
迈克尔·斯奈德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And he said, "Well, I used to smoke, but I don't smoke because it causes cancer, but I like the nicotine for the cognitive stimulation." And he looked at me, and he said, "And it's protective against Parkinson's and Alzheimer's." I said, "Really?" And he goes, "Yeah, read up about it." So then, indeed, I went and looked, and it does seem to be neuro-protective.
安德鲁·休伯曼：他说，“嗯，我以前抽烟，但我不抽烟，因为它会导致癌症，但我喜欢尼古丁来刺激认知。”他看着我，说道：“它可以预防帕金森氏症和阿尔茨海默氏症。”我说：“真的吗？”他说：“是的，请阅读相关内容。”所以，我确实去看了，它似乎确实具有神经保护作用。
Now, it also raises blood pressure.
现在，它还会升高血压。
It's highly habit-forming/addictive.
它很容易让人上瘾/上瘾。
Most people I know that take two milligrams of a nicotine gum or a pouch, suddenly are taking four, six, eight.
我认识的大多数人服用两毫克尼古丁口香糖或一袋尼古丁，突然会服用四毫克、六毫克、八毫克。
Then they're taking a canister every two days.
然后他们每两天就拿走一个罐子。
Michael Snyder: Wow.
迈克尔·斯奈德：哇。
Andrew Huberman: Like, it's very habit-forming, very fast.
Andrew Huberman：就像，它非常容易让人养成习惯，而且速度非常快。
Michael Snyder: Wow.
迈克尔·斯奈德：哇。
Andrew Huberman: So it's not something I recommend.
Andrew Huberman：所以这不是我推荐的。
But I'm very intrigued by the idea of the substance nicotine, when it's not smoked, vaped, you know, dipped, or snuffed, that it might actually be neuro-protective.
但我对尼古丁这种物质的想法非常感兴趣，当它没有被抽、吸、浸或吸过时，它实际上可能具有神经保护作用。
Richard's a molecular biologist by training.
理查德是一位受过训练的分子生物学家。
He's not somebody who just says stuff when it comes to science.
他不是一个在科学问题上只说空话的人。
Sometimes he just says stuff.
有时他只是说说而已。
He's kind of known to be kind of an outrageous guy.
众所周知，他是一个令人发指的家伙。
Andrew Huberman: But the data are kind of interesting, like in rodent studies, that nicotine can be protective in the face of a bunch of different insults to dopamine neurons, like a combined low-grade head injury with something else, like hypoglycemia.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：但这些数据有点有趣，就像在啮齿动物研究中一样，尼古丁可以在面对一系列对多巴胺神经元的不同伤害时发挥保护作用，例如低度头部损伤与其他疾病的结合，例如低血糖。
Michael Snyder: Uh-huh.
迈克尔·斯奈德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Right?
安德鲁·休伯曼：对吗？
The two-hit model.
二次打击模型。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Andrew Huberman: That it's not a head injury that would kill neurons, it's not hypoglycemia that would kill neurons.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：头部受伤不会杀死神经元，低血糖也不会杀死神经元。
But when they coincide, the so-called two-hit model, then you start losing neurons.
但当它们重合时，即所谓的两次打击模型，你就会开始失去神经元。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Andrew Huberman: And in some cases like nicotine, can be this kind of thing.
安德鲁·休伯曼：在某些情况下，比如尼古丁，可能就是这样的东西。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Michael Snyder: Okay.
迈克尔·斯奈德：好的。
Andrew Huberman: So, I'm intrigued by things that one could potentially do to protect neurons, aside from wearing a bike helmet, which I'm relieved to hear that you do.
Andrew Huberman：所以，除了戴自行车头盔之外，我对人们可以采取的保护神经元的措施很感兴趣，听到你这么做我很欣慰。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Michael Snyder: Okay.
迈克尔·斯奈德：好的。
Andrew Huberman: In any case, room for further exploration.
Andrew Huberman：无论如何，还有进一步探索的空间。
Michael Snyder: Yeah, of course, it's the motor neurons for ALS versus others.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的，当然，这是 ALS 与其他疾病的运动神经元的问题。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Right, motor neurons for ALS.
Andrew Huberman：对，ALS 的运动神经元。
Michael Snyder: So I don't know how similar or different, yeah, that is.
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以我不知道有多么相似或不同，是的，就是这样。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Yeah, it's super interesting.
是的，这非常有趣。
I don't think anyone wants to lose their motor, dopamine, or any other neurons.
我认为没有人想失去他们的运动、多巴胺或任何其他神经元。
Michael Snyder: It is.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Michael Snyder: Yeah, for sure.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的，当然。
Andrew Huberman: So, you know, with rare exception, we don't replace them.
Andrew Huberman：所以，你知道，除了极少数例外，我们不会替换它们。
So I think that's going to be a really important area going forward.
所以我认为这将是未来一个非常重要的领域。
Michael Snyder: Yeah, agree.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的，同意。
Andrew Huberman: Right now, it's mostly the don'ts.
Andrew Huberman：现在，主要是不要做。
"Don't get a head injury.
“别让头部受伤。
If you do, don't get a second one.
如果你这样做了，就不要再得到第二个。
Quit the sport." People always say, you know, "I play rugby, and I got a really bad concussion.
退出这项运动。”人们总是说，你知道，“我打橄榄球，我受到了严重的脑震荡。
What should I do?" And I go, "Find a new sport." And they never like that answer, but you know.
我该怎么办？”我说，“找一项新运动。”他们从来不喜欢这个答案，但你知道。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Wow.
哇。
Michael Snyder: Back to behavioral modification.
迈克尔·斯奈德：回到行为矫正。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, exactly.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，完全正确。
It's mostly don'ts.
大部分都是不该做的事。
Michael Snyder: Yeah, yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的，是的。
Andrew Huberman: I'd like to talk about some things that might seem a little bit more in the esoteric realm.
Andrew Huberman：我想谈谈一些看起来有点深奥的事情。
Michael Snyder: Okay.
迈克尔·斯奈德：好的。
Andrew Huberman: Let's start with low esoteric, but still in the kind of area that now people are talking about, which used to be considered kind of woo, which is air quality.
Andrew Huberman：让我们从深奥的话题开始，但仍然属于现在人们谈论的领域，这曾经被认为是一种求爱，即空气质量。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Everyone agrees pollution is bad.
安德鲁·休伯曼：每个人都认为污染是不好的。
What people don't agree upon so much is how much otherwise, like, permissible air, like not during a fire, or living in a city versus a suburb versus in a rural area, pesticides, et cetera, you know, how air quality impacts our health.
人们不太同意的是，还有多少其他方面的问题，比如允许的空气，比如不在火灾期间，或者生活在城市与郊区与农村地区，杀虫剂等等，你知道，空气质量如何影响我们的健康。
You've got a device on the table that literally is measuring...
你的桌子上有一个设备，它实际上正在测量......
How's our air quality in here, by the way?
顺便问一下，我们这里的空气质量怎么样？
Michael Snyder: You're good.
迈克尔·斯奈德：你很好。
You're at PM2.5 of three, PM10 of four.
PM2.5 为 3，PM10 为 4。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Michael Snyder: Which is very low, by the way.
迈克尔·斯奈德：顺便说一下，这个比例非常低。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
We've turned off the AC for recording purposes.
为了录音目的，我们关闭了空调。
Michael Snyder: I see.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我明白了。
Andrew Huberman: Afterwards, we tend to ventilate the room a little bit.
Andrew Huberman：之后，我们会稍微给房间通风一下。
Michael Snyder: Yeah, it was one earlier.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的，那是早些时候的事。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，是的。
Michael Snyder: So it's let in-
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以它被允许了-
Andrew Huberman: But we had fires here in LA not long ago.
Andrew Huberman：但是不久前我们在洛杉矶发生了火灾。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Andrew Huberman: How...
安德鲁·休伯曼：如何...
Michael Snyder: Probably would've gotten to 200, maybe more.
Michael Snyder：可能会达到 200，甚至更多。
Andrew Huberman: I mean, it was dreadful.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我的意思是，这太可怕了。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: It was really bad.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这真的很糟糕。
Michael Snyder: Color, yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：颜色，是的。
Andrew Huberman: And a lot of people and animals are still suffering symptoms, you know.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你知道，很多人和动物仍然出现症状。
So what's the logic behind this device, and what's the...
那么这个设备背后的逻辑是什么，又是什么......
I mean, I imagine you brought it here for a reason.
我的意思是，我想你把它带到这里是有原因的。
Michael Snyder: Well, no, I bring it all the time.
迈克尔·斯奈德：嗯，不，我一直带着它。
It's always next to me.
它总是在我身边。
Andrew Huberman: Oh, you carry this everywhere you go?
Andrew Huberman：哦，你去哪儿都带着这个？
Michael Snyder: Oh, yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：哦，是的。
I've been doing this for eight or 10 years now.
我这样做已经八年或十年了。
Andrew Huberman: And if a restaurant or another space doesn't have good air quality, you just leave?
Andrew Huberman：如果一家餐厅或其他空间的空气质量不好，你就离开吧？
Is that...
难道是……
Michael Snyder: No...
迈克尔·斯奈德：不……
Probably.
可能吧。
Andrew Huberman: You inform them and then leave?
Andrew Huberman：你通知他们然后离开？
Michael Snyder: People ask, and I'm always honest.
迈克尔·斯奈德：人们问，我总是诚实的。
I tell them what it is.
我告诉他们那是什么。
It hasn't been so bad.
情况并没有那么糟糕。
Where it'll get bad is during the fires, but there, a few times.
火灾期间情况会变得更糟糕，但也有几次。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: So I'm doing it, backing up a little bit, it's a very under-explored area.
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以我正在这样做，稍微后退一点，这是一个非常有待探索的领域。
And that's kind of, again, the academic side of me.
这又是我学术的一面。
I want to understand how does your environment impact your health?
我想了解您的环境如何影响您的健康？
And it's not just air, but that's the area we decided to start in.
这不仅仅是空气，而是我们决定开始的领域。
And, you know, what are you breathing right now?
而且，你知道，你现在呼吸的是什么？
You have no idea, right?
你不知道，对吧？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: And so that's the principle.
迈克尔·斯奈德：这就是原则。
I'm a sort of big data guy, as you can tell.
正如你所知，我是一个大数据专家。
I do all these measurements on the inside.
我在内部进行所有这些测量。
What about the outside?
外面呢？
And we know from plenty of work from others, you mentioned, you know, particulates in the air.
我们从其他人的大量工作中得知，您提到了空气中的颗粒物。
This is where the PM2.5, that's thought to be the stuff that penetrates your lungs and causes all kinds of problems.
这就是 PM2.5 的来源，人们认为它是渗入肺部并导致各种问题的物质。
Andrew Huberman: Goes from the lungs into the bloodstream, and it can cross the blood-brain barrier.
Andrew Huberman：从肺部进入血液，它可以穿过血脑屏障。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Michael Snyder: Yeah, not good.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的，不好。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Michael Snyder: So anyway, and these days, as you know, plastics and microplastics have erupted as a pretty big health concern.
迈克尔·斯奈德：无论如何，正如你所知，如今塑料和微塑料已经成为一个相当大的健康问题。
But nobody's 100% sure what it means.
但没有人 100% 确定这意味着什么。
But they do know now that when you dissect people's brains of folks who have died, and you'll see microplastics, that they're everywhere.
但他们现在确实知道，当你解剖死者的大脑时，你会看到微塑料，它们无处不在。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: And so what is it doing to your health?
迈克尔·斯奈德：那么它对你的健康有什么影响呢？
I don't think we fully know.
我认为我们并不完全知道。
But we're starting by just trying to measure the stuff.
但我们一开始只是尝试测量这些东西。
So we've decided to start with airborne, but you could argue, you know, what are you drinking, what's in your food?
所以我们决定从空中开始，但你可能会争论，你知道，你喝什么，你的食物里有什么？
That's all very relevant, by the way.
顺便说一句，这一切都非常相关。
But we'll start with the air.
但我们将从空气开始。
And so what we're doing here, it's not just measuring PM2.5 and PM10.
因此，我们在这里所做的不仅仅是测量 PM2.5 和 PM10。
Michael Snyder: It's basically sucking up air, there's a pump in here.
迈克尔·斯奈德：它基本上是在吸空气，这里有一个泵。
And underneath the intake valve, there's a filter that captures all the particulates like pollen, bacteria, fungi.
在进气阀下方有一个过滤器，可以捕获花粉、细菌、真菌等所有颗粒物。
And under that, there's a chemical adsorbent, it's called zeolite, captures both hydrophobic, hydrophilic, positive, negative.
在它的下面，有一种化学吸附剂，称为沸石，可以捕获疏水性、亲水性、正电、负电。
Michael Snyder: And then not in real time, but offline, we'll measure all the biologicals like the fungi, the pollen, the whatever that's captured on the filter, and we'll measure the chemicals using something called mass spectrometry, the things they have in airports that measures, you know, bombs and things like that.
迈克尔·斯奈德：然后不是实时地，而是离线地，我们将测量所有生物，如真菌、花粉、过滤器上捕捉到的任何东西，我们将使用一种叫做质谱法的东西来测量化学物质，他们在机场有测量炸弹和类似东西的东西。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: So we're trying to measure that in real time to see what's going on.
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以我们正在尝试实时测量，看看发生了什么。
And then we try and correlate what's outside with what's inside, because we'll measure your blood as well with these deep profiles.
然后我们尝试将外部与内部关联起来，因为我们还将通过这些深层轮廓来测量您的血液。
And so what we've discovered is first of all, you'll be getting exposed to...
所以我们发现首先，你会接触到......
For me, I'll do one of these during the week, one on the weekend.
对我来说，我会在一周内做其中一项，在周末做一项。
So we don't do it every five minutes kind of thing, because you have to collect enough sample.
所以我们不会每五分钟做一次这样的事情，因为你必须收集足够的样本。
But we will basically determine what kind of exposure you're getting.
但我们基本上会确定您所获得的曝光类型。
Michael Snyder: And if you're at high risk for certain things, you may want to know this, like asthma or allergies, what are you exposed?
迈克尔·斯奈德：如果您对某些事情处于高风险，您可能想知道这一点，例如哮喘或过敏，您会接触到什么？
And there I can give you an example.
我可以给你举个例子。
I used to have moderate allergies.
我曾经有中度过敏。
Now, they're pretty mild, because allergies can fluctuate a bit.
现在，它们相当温和，因为过敏可能会有所波动。
And they would come every spring, and I just assumed it was pollen.
它们每年春天都会来，我只是假设那是花粉。
Well, it is pollen in the end.
好吧，最后是花粉。
But I assumed it was pine.
但我以为是松树。
Michael Snyder: But when we did the correlation, well, turns out it correlates better with eucalyptus.
迈克尔·斯奈德：但是当我们进行相关性分析时，结果发现它与桉树的相关性更好。
And then it's like, "Duh, I should have realized this." But I don't get them on the Northeast where there's no eucalyptus.
然后就像是，“呃，我应该意识到这一点。”但我在没有桉树的东北地区买不到它们。
And so in the end, it makes a lot of sense.
所以最终，这是很有意义的。
So that one hasn't affected my lifestyle, meaning I still have a big eucalyptus tree out back that I have not chopped down.
所以这并没有影响我的生活方式，这意味着我后面还有一棵大桉树没有被砍倒。
Mind you, it's on Stanford land, so I can't do that anyway.
请注意，这是在斯坦福大学的土地上，所以无论如何我都不能这样做。
Michael Snyder: But yeah, at least I know what's going on.
迈克尔·斯奈德：但是，是的，至少我知道发生了什么事。
But then, like, on the chemical side, which is very interesting, we discover there's DEET everywhere, even in my office at Stanford.
但是，在化学方面，非常有趣的是，我们发现到处都有避蚊胺，甚至在我在斯坦福大学的办公室里也是如此。
Andrew Huberman: DEET?
安德鲁·休伯曼：避蚊胺？
Michael Snyder: DEET.
迈克尔·斯奈德：避蚊胺。
Yeah, that thing you're using-
是的，你正在使用的那个东西-
Andrew Huberman: The insect repellent?
安德鲁·休伯曼：驱虫剂？
Michael Snyder: Yep.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: The carcinogenic insect repellent?
Andrew Huberman：致癌驱虫剂？
Michael Snyder: Yes.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I used it years ago when I was a camp counselor, and then one day someone on the maintenance staff said, "Take some DEET, put it into a Ziploc bag, and put that Ziploc bag into a glass jar."
Andrew Huberman：几年前，当我担任营地辅导员时，我使用过它，然后有一天，维护人员中的一个人说，“取一些避蚊胺，将其放入密封袋中，然后将密封袋放入玻璃罐中。”
Michael Snyder: Uh-huh.
迈克尔·斯奈德：嗯。
Michael Snyder: Okay.
迈克尔·斯奈德：好的。
Andrew Huberman: And I was like, "Okay," and I did that.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我当时想，“好吧”，然后我就这么做了。
And within a few hours, the plastic bag was completely disintegrated.
而几个小时之内，塑料袋就彻底解体了。
Michael Snyder: Ouch.
迈克尔·斯奈德：哎呀。
Andrew Huberman: And I was slathering that stuff on my skin way back when.
Andrew Huberman：当时我就在皮肤上涂了厚厚的东西。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And I lived with mosquito bites for the rest of the summer.
安德鲁·休伯曼：整个夏天我都被蚊子叮咬了。
I'm like, "I'm not putting that stuff on my skin."
我想，“我不会把那些东西放在我的皮肤上。”
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Of course, now you have to worry about getting West Nile or something else.
当然，现在你得担心得到西尼罗河什么的。
Andrew Huberman: Not in Yosemite.
安德鲁·休伯曼：不在优胜美地。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Oh, okay.
哦好的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: You had to worry about getting giardia.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你必须担心感染贾第鞭毛虫。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman: But that's a different issue.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但这是一个不同的问题。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: From the water.
安德鲁·休伯曼：从水中。
Yeah.
是的。
Michael Snyder: Interesting.
迈克尔·斯奈德：有趣。
Anyway, and same with pesticides in most places.
无论如何，大多数地方的杀虫剂都是一样的。
And carcinogens, of course, are everywhere, but their types vary, and the amounts vary a lot.
而致癌物当然无处不在，只是种类不同，含量也相差很大。
So, when I was...
所以，当我...
when I'm in UC Davis giving talks or something, I get a pesticide exposure.
当我在加州大学戴维斯分校做演讲或做其他事情时，我会接触到农药。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, it's rural there.
Andrew Huberman：是的，那里是农村。
Michael Snyder: Because of all the fields are out there.
迈克尔·斯奈德：因为所有的领域都在那里。
Yeah.
是的。
And the same with when I was in Fresno.
我在弗雷斯诺时也是如此。
So, you can see these correlations.
所以，你可以看到这些相关性。
And so that's what we're doing.
这就是我们正在做的事情。
We'll measure what's where, and then we'll measure, "How does that relate to what's going on inside?" So we can see what microbes are outside relating to inflammation, markers like cytokines, things like that on the inside.
我们将测量什么在哪里，然后我们将测量“这与内部发生的情况有何关系？”所以我们可以看到外部与炎症相关的微生物、细胞因子等标记物以及内部的类似物质。
And the same with some of the chemical markers, like your glucose levels.
一些化学标记物也是如此，比如你的血糖水平。
Michael Snyder: And right now, that's mostly been built, those models, around me, but we're trying to run a study with a lot of people, so we can...
迈克尔·斯奈德：现在，这些模型大部分已经在我周围建立起来了，但我们正在尝试与很多人一起进行一项研究，这样我们就可以......
First of all, even break it down further.
首先，还要进一步分解。
What's the difference between your kitchen and your living room, and outside your house?
您的厨房、客厅以及屋外有什么区别？
And then the same thing, how does that relate to some of the levels of key markers, your metabolites, your inflammatory markers?
那么同样的事情，这与一些关键标记物、代谢物、炎症标记物的水平有何关系？
So, we want to correlate that.
所以，我们想要将其关联起来。
We know studies from others have shown, right, pesticides correlate with Parkinson's and things like this.
我们知道其他人的研究表明，杀虫剂与帕金森氏症和类似疾病有关。
So we want to see what's going on there.
所以我们想看看那里发生了什么。
I can tell you some fun stuff that we just may...
我可以告诉你一些有趣的事情，我们可能...
Again, these are all correlations.
再次强调，这些都是相关性。
Now we do something called mediation analysis.
现在我们做一些称为中介分析的事情。
It can let you get a little better about causality.
它可以让你更好地了解因果关系。
Not proof in many cases, but a better idea.
在很多情况下不是证据，而是更好的想法。
Anyway, here's a fun thing we discovered.
不管怎样，我们发现了一件有趣的事情。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: We found a correlation between something called pyridine, which used to be common in paints, and it's in other places too.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我们发现了一种叫做吡啶的物质之间的相关性，这种物质过去在油漆中很常见，而且在其他地方也存在。
They recently don't put it in paints.
他们最近不再将其放入油漆中。
But pyridine exposures are associated with a lack of fungi.
但吡啶暴露与真菌缺乏有关。
Meaning I'll have more bacterial, plant, or other exposure.
这意味着我将接触更多的细菌、植物或其他物质。
So, my house was painted by a green guy, no pyridine in the paints there, so I get a fungal exposure when I'm at home.
所以，我的房子是由一个绿色的人粉刷的，那里的油漆中没有吡啶，所以当我在家时我会接触到真菌。
Andrew Huberman: Hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Michael Snyder: And so is that good or bad?
迈克尔·斯奈德：那么这是好还是坏呢？
I don't know.
我不知道。
But imagine I was very allergic to black mold, so maybe I do want pyridine in my plate paint to-
但想象一下我对黑霉菌非常过敏，所以也许我确实希望在我的板漆中加入吡啶来-
Andrew Huberman: I know a lot of people who struggle with mold.
Andrew Huberman：我知道很多人都在与霉菌作斗争。
Michael Snyder: We can make that association with the allergies, of course.
迈克尔·斯奈德：当然，我们可以将其与过敏联系起来。
Anyway, you get the idea.
无论如何，你明白了。
We're trying to correlate what's going on in the outside with the inside.
我们试图将外部发生的事情与内部发生的事情联系起来。
Well, in that case, with other outside things, but later with the inside.
好吧，在这种情况下，先讨论其他外部事物，然后再讨论内部。
So, yeah.
所以，是的。
Where measurements will make these things, that'll lead to hypotheses that we could then probably test by either mouse models or in humans who live in certain places, who wind up sort of testing whether they're trying to or not.
如果测量能够做出这些事情，就会产生假设，然后我们可以通过小鼠模型或居住在某些地方的人类进行测试，无论他们是否尝试这样做，最终都会进行某种测试。
Michael Snyder: Imagine you live near...
迈克尔·斯奈德：想象一下你住在附近......
You know, obviously, you live near certain areas, you will see...
你知道，显然，你住在某些地区附近，你会看到......
If you live near mines, you will see autoimmune disease, things like that.
如果你住在矿井附近，你会看到自身免疫性疾病，诸如此类的事情。
So, we can try and make these associations, and then you correlate with similar people who aren't living near mines to try to test that.
因此，我们可以尝试建立这些关联，然后与不住在矿井附近的类似人进行关联，以尝试测试这一点。
Andrew Huberman: I love that you're linking outside environment with internal and-
Andrew Huberman：我喜欢你将外部环境与内部环境联系起来，并且-
Michael Snyder: Yeah, I feel like it's a totally unexplored area, and a pretty important one.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的，我觉得这是一个完全未经探索的领域，而且是一个非常重要的领域。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Yeah, and I think the fires in LA, among other things, have sensitized people to this notion of air quality in a real way.
是的，我认为洛杉矶的火灾，除其他外，让人们真正意识到空气质量的概念。
It's a shame it took that.
很遗憾这样做了。
But it does seem to be a theme that's persisting.
但这似乎确实是一个持续存在的主题。
People are starting to think about like, "Yeah, how clean or dirty is my air?" And I think the interest and emphasis on microplastics recently is interesting.
人们开始思考，“是的，我的空气有多干净或多脏？”我认为最近对微塑料的兴趣和重视很有趣。
I did an episode about microplastics.
我制作了一集关于微塑料的节目。
We had Shanna Swan on the podcast.
我们的播客中有莎娜·斯旺 (Shanna Swan)。
I mean, I think it's been known for a long time that these microplastics, BPAs, and phthalates, so-called forever chemicals, have been an issue.
我的意思是，我认为人们很早就知道这些微塑料、BPA 和邻苯二甲酸盐，即所谓的永久化学品，一直是一个问题。
I think that people are now just shocked to learn how many of these things we've accumulated and maintained in our body.
我认为人们现在只是震惊地发现我们体内积累并维持了多少这些东西。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Michael Snyder: And they're all over our body too, Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：它们也遍布我们的全身，是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, and the health effects are still unclear.
Andrew Huberman：是的，对健康的影响仍不清楚。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Andrew Huberman: Like, it's...
安德鲁·休伯曼：就像，这是......
I mean, it's really unclear.
我的意思是，这确实不清楚。
Michael Snyder: They've been talked about, endocrine disrupters and things like this, yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：人们一直在谈论内分泌干扰物之类的事情，是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I mean, I filter my water and I try not to drink out of plastic disposable bottles.
Andrew Huberman：我的意思是，我会过滤水，并且尽量不喝一次性塑料瓶中的水。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: That seems to be an important one.
Andrew Huberman：这似乎很重要。
But, you know, there was a recent study-
但是，你知道，最近有一项研究——
Michael Snyder: I've only recently switched.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我最近才转行。
I should have done it eons ago.
我很久以前就应该这么做了。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, we should have done it years ago, right?
Andrew Huberman：是的，我们几年前就应该这样做，对吧？
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: But, there's a recent study showing that actually the glass bottles contain more microplastics than plastic bottles because of the...
安德鲁·休伯曼：但是，最近的一项研究表明，实际上玻璃瓶比塑料瓶含有更多的微塑料，因为......
what's on the lines, the underside of the caps.
线条上有什么，帽子的底面。
Michael Snyder: I see.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我明白了。
Andrew Huberman: But what's less discussed around that study is that that was focused on the glass and plastic cap configuration in Europe.
Andrew Huberman：但围绕该研究较少讨论的是，该研究主要关注欧洲的玻璃和塑料盖配置。
It's different here.
这里不一样。
So it's like, it really needs to be explored.
所以说，确实需要探索一下。
I think simple ways to measure one's own environment using sensors like the one that you have here for the air, as well as for water, is going to be really, really important.
我认为使用传感器（例如空气传感器和水传感器）来测量自身环境的简单方法将非常非常重要。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: So, I'm grateful that you're commercializing so many of these things.
Andrew Huberman：所以，我很感激你们将这么多东西商业化。
I can tell you are a data guy, but the fact that you translate things into real-world tools is so valuable.
我可以告诉你，你是一个数据专家，但你将事物转化为现实世界的工具的事实是如此有价值。
Speaking of which, I'm going to be very direct about this.
说到这里，我会非常直接地谈论这一点。
Andrew Huberman: Two Stanford faculty talking about measuring lots of biomarkers from a single drop of blood, screams of Theranos.
安德鲁·休伯曼：两位斯坦福大学教员谈论从一滴血中测量大量生物标志物，希拉洛斯的尖叫声。
Let's just call it what it is and not dance around it.
我们就这么称呼它吧，不要绕着它跳舞。
Michael Snyder: Sure.
迈克尔·斯奈德：当然。
Andrew Huberman: Which was a spectacular failure that involved, apparently, at least the courts decided...
安德鲁·休伯曼：这是一次巨大的失败，显然，至少法院裁定……
Seems there was a lot of corruption and lying and stuff there.
那里似乎有很多腐败和谎言之类的东西。
However, that was some years ago, and you were not involved with that.
然而，那是几年前的事了，你并没有参与其中。
And so the technology has now evolved to the point where my understanding is that you are able to measure lots of biomarkers from a single drop of blood.
因此，这项技术现在已经发展到了这样的程度，我的理解是，你可以从一滴血中测量大量的生物标志物。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Thousands.
数千。
Andrew Huberman: Thousands.
安德鲁·休伯曼：数千。
So that's exciting, because no one likes to get their blood drawn.
这很令人兴奋，因为没有人喜欢抽血。
I guess if...
我想如果...
There might be a subset of people.
可能有一小部分人。
But...
但是...
So, tell us about that.
那么，请告诉我们这一点。
Like, what is that pursuit called?
比如，这种追求叫什么？
What are you measuring?
你在测量什么？
Why are you measuring it?
你为什么要测量它？
And maybe underscore the real value of a single drop of blood analysis.
也许还可以强调一滴血液分析的真正价值。
Michael Snyder: First of all, we don't get measured very often when we're healthy.
迈克尔·斯奈德：首先，当我们健康时，我们不会经常进行测量。
This idea that we mostly practice sick care, not healthcare.
这个想法是我们主要进行疾病护理，而不是医疗保健。
And why do you go to a physician all the time when you're healthy to get measured?
当您身体健康时，为什么还要一直去看医生进行测量？
I think that's a barrier to getting measured.
我认为这是衡量的障碍。
So, can we come up with more facile ways of measuring people?
那么，我们能否想出更简便的方法来衡量人呢？
The wearables are obviously one, and they're perfect because they're, you know, passive monitoring and continuous, so you're really collecting a lot of data just in the background.
可穿戴设备显然就是其中之一，它们是完美的，因为它们是被动监控和连续的，所以你实际上只是在后台收集大量数据。
I mean, the inconvenience is wearing and charging these things.
我的意思是，不便在于佩戴和充电这些东西。
Michael Snyder: But we don't measure what's on the inside, and I think that still has value.
迈克尔·斯奈德：但我们不衡量内部的内容，我认为这仍然有价值。
And the idea about trying to set up home tests for this sort of thing, I think, is powerful.
我认为尝试为此类事情建立家庭测试的想法是强大的。
So that was the motivation.
这就是动机。
That was the motivation for our Theranos, I think, too.
我认为这也是我们 Theranos 的动机。
And our shtick, if you will, was to try and do this.
如果你愿意的话，我们的技巧就是尝试这样做。
But we're not trying to measure the exact clinical values because some of that is hard.
但我们并不想测量确切的临床值，因为其中有些很难。
How do you measure LDL droplets in microsamples?
如何测量微量样品中的 LDL 液滴？
It's probably doable, but it's a lot trickier.
这可能是可行的，但要棘手得多。
We were just trying to...
我们只是想...
it fits with our idea of doing deep data profiles on little drops of blood.
它符合我们对小滴血进行深度数据分析的想法。
And the key is to find a format that would keep the analytes, as we call them, the molecules stable.
关键是找到一种能够保持分析物（我们称之为分子）稳定的形式。
Michael Snyder: And so we tested them.
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以我们测试了它们。
We spent seven years, actually, trying different things, finding formats that...
事实上，我们花了七年的时间尝试不同的东西，寻找......
The old format was to do, use paper, actually, cellulose, to collect the stuff, and that doesn't work very well.
旧的格式是使用纸张（实际上是纤维素）来收集这些东西，但这效果不太好。
The analytes oxidize.
分析物发生氧化。
It's a mess.
真是一团糟。
And so ultimately, we tested a lot of things out there.
最终，我们测试了很多东西。
We were trying to invent a few of our own.
我们试图发明一些我们自己的。
And the net result was, we did settle on some that were out there and tested them.
最终结果是，我们确实选择了一些现有的产品并进行了测试。
They're being used in a more limited fashion.
它们的使用方式更加有限。
And then we showed you could actually do the kinds of things we do, the metabolomics, it's called, lipidomics, and proteomics.
然后我们展示了你实际上可以做我们所做的事情，代谢组学，它被称为脂质组学和蛋白质组学。
And again, with certain configurations, the proteins turn...
再说一遍，在某些配置下，蛋白质会变成……
Most of them are quite stable, not 100% but most are.
其中大多数都很稳定，不是 100%，但大多数都是。
We can measure all this.
我们可以衡量这一切。
Metabolites, same thing, most are lipids, some are, some aren't.
代谢物，同样的东西，大多数是脂质，有些是，有些不是。
Michael Snyder: So we figured out which ones are, which ones aren't, and then we basically did just that.
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以我们弄清楚哪些是，哪些不是，然后我们基本上就这样做了。
We showed you could do this, did fun experiments, like, in my case, we took a sample every hour for seven straight days to try and correlate-
我们向你展示了你可以做到这一点，做了一些有趣的实验，就像我的例子一样，我们连续七天每小时采集一个样本来尝试和关联-
Andrew Huberman: Around the clock?
安德鲁·休伯曼：全天候？
Michael Snyder: Well, at night when I was sleeping, no. But although when I did wake up, I would take a sample sometimes.
迈克尔·斯奈德：嗯，晚上我睡觉的时候，没有。但尽管当我醒来时，我有时会取样。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Wow.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哇。
Andrew Huberman: Well, it's just a drop.
Andrew Huberman：嗯，只是一滴而已。
Michael Snyder: Yeah, not so great for sleep disruption, I suppose.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的，我想，对于睡眠干扰来说不太好。
But anyway, and the idea there was to correlate, you know, what's going on with...
但无论如何，这个想法是相关联的，你知道，发生了什么......
And I was wearing a CGM and a smartwatch.
我戴着 CGM 和智能手表。
I could follow activity, doing food logging, all that sort of stuff.
我可以跟踪活动，记录食物，诸如此类的事情。
And then in the end, we're trying to correlate basically people's activities and people's biochemistry and physiology with their activities and heart rate and things like that.
最后，我们试图将人们的活动、人们的生物化学和生理学与他们的活动、心率等相关联。
And so we found out literally thousands of correlations.
所以我们发现了数以千计的相关性。
It's pretty cool.
非常酷。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: A lot of which is known, right?
迈克尔·斯奈德：其中很多都是已知的，对吧？
Your insulin goes up after your glucose.
血糖升高后，胰岛素会升高。
But we can precisely measure.
但我们可以精确测量。
We can...
我们可以...
For me, it's 10 minutes.
对我来说，是10分钟。
We know exactly the magnitude with certain kinds of food and that sort of thing.
我们确切地知道某些食物之类的东西的大小。
We also discovered...
我们还发现...
I don't know if this'll go anywhere, but we're pursuing it, alpha-synuclein, which is involved in Parkinson's and dementia.
我不知道这是否会有任何进展，但我们正在追求它，α-突触核蛋白，它与帕金森氏症和痴呆症有关。
It actually showed an interesting pattern.
它实际上显示了一个有趣的模式。
It seemed to fluctuate with stress, actually.
事实上，它似乎会随着压力而波动。
Andrew Huberman: Goes up with stress?
Andrew Huberman：压力会上升吗？
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Well, that's what we're trying to figure out: "What kinds of stress".
嗯，这就是我们想要弄清楚的：“什么样的压力”。
So, I don't think we have that sorted out yet.
所以，我认为我们还没有解决这个问题。
Yeah.
是的。
So anyway, I'll leave it at that because we don't have it all sorted but...
所以无论如何，我会保留它，因为我们还没有全部排序，但是......
So, that's the thing.
所以，就是这样。
We're trying to measure that, see exactly what it correlates with.
我们正在尝试衡量这一点，看看它到底与什么相关。
And then maybe that's a useful assay for trying to manage that, and therefore push off dementia.
也许这是一个有用的方法来尝试控制这一点，从而推迟痴呆症。
That's the hypothesis.
这就是假设。
No guarantee that's right.
不能保证这是正确的。
But these are the kinds of observations we make that I'd like to see if they turn into real-world value that we could then help, you know, maybe get out there to help people in some fashion or other.
但这些是我们所做的观察，我想看看它们是否会转化为现实世界的价值，然后我们可以提供帮助，你知道，也许可以以某种方式帮助人们。
Andrew Huberman: Very cool.
安德鲁·休伯曼：非常酷。
Michael Snyder: So, this is the kind of stuff we do.
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以，这就是我们所做的事情。
And these are what you're calling observational trials.
这些就是你们所说的观察性试验。
Deep data measurements on people to better see what's going on, make hypotheses, and then, yeah, ideally roll it out into the real world.
对人们进行深入的数据测量，以更好地了解正在发生的事情，做出假设，然后，是的，理想情况下将其推广到现实世界。
Andrew Huberman: I love it.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我喜欢它。
Well, let's go further into what most people consider kind of esoteric, at least in this half of the world, but it's not really esoteric at all.
好吧，让我们进一步探讨大多数人认为深奥的东西，至少在世界的这一半，但它根本不是真正的深奥。
It has tremendous precedent, which is acupuncture.
它有一个巨大的先例，那就是针灸。
Michael Snyder: Okay.
迈克尔·斯奈德：好的。
Andrew Huberman: I think for people who know acupuncture makes perfect sense as something that would be a valuable tool, right?
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：我认为对于那些知道针灸作为一种有价值的工具非常有意义的人来说，对吗？
Thousands of years of data and practice.
数千年的数据和实践。
Less known about the mechanism.
对其机制知之甚少。
But Qiufu Ma's lab at Harvard in recent years has been studying how different needle configurations impact different organs.
但马秋福在哈佛大学的实验室近年来一直在研究不同的针头结构如何影响不同的器官。
That's in mouse models, but you know, different inflammatory molecules or anti-inflammatory molecules.
这是在小鼠模型中，但你知道，不同的炎症分子或抗炎分子。
So, there's some mechanistic data starting to come out.
因此，一些机械数据开始出现。
You have an interesting story about acupuncture and perhaps what it can offer or not offer in terms of health support.
您有一个关于针灸的有趣故事，以及它在健康支持方面可以提供或不能提供什么。
Michael Snyder: I'm down on sabbatical at UC Irvine with Shaista Malik, who runs an integrative health institute where they bring in nutrition, exercise, and things like acupuncture into trying to better manage people's health and lives.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我正在加州大学欧文分校与 Shaista Malik 一起休假，他经营着一家综合健康研究所，他们引入营养、锻炼和针灸等方法来更好地管理人们的健康和生活。
And it's been very fascinating for me because they're doing it on the clinical side.
这对我来说非常着迷，因为他们正在临床方面做这件事。
I'm kind of a big data measurement guy.
我是一个大数据测量人员。
And so I want to see what's going on, if there's ways that make sense to collaborate.
所以我想看看正在发生什么，是否有有意义的合作方式。
And as you pointed out, acupuncture's been around for 3,000 years or some incredible number.
正如您所指出的，针灸已经存在了 3000 年，或者说是一个令人难以置信的数字。
There must be something to it, right?
一定有什么道理吧？
People use it a lot for pain and, apparently, for fertility and other things as well.
人们经常用它来缓解疼痛，显然也用于生育和其他方面。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
It's shown to be effective in a number of domains.
它被证明在许多领域都是有效的。
And I've had quote-unquote "Standard MDs," including our director of pain medicine, Sean Mackey, on this podcast, who's like, "Yep, there is evidence, acupuncture can work."
我在这个播客上听到过一些“标准医学博士”，包括我们的疼痛医学主任肖恩·麦基（Sean Mackey），他说，“是的，有证据表明，针灸可以起作用。”
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Michael Snyder: And there are plenty of people swear by it.
迈克尔·斯奈德：很多人都对此深信不疑。
And she uses it for blood pressure, okay?
她用它来测量血压，好吗？
For blood pressure management.
用于血压管理。
So, I run a little high on the blood pressure, not...
所以我的血压有点高，不是...
Nobody's overly panicked.
没有人过度恐慌。
But you know, I tend to be in the high 130s, but I guess, because I was getting a very large grain out, I was in the low 140s.
但你知道，我的体重往往在 130 多岁左右，但我猜，因为我得到的颗粒非常大，所以我的体重在 140 多岁左右。
And so, I measured myself right before acupuncture, you know, very specific time of day with my monitor at home.
因此，我在针灸之前用家里的显示器测量了自己，你知道，一天中的特定时间。
And yeah, I was running 140 over the low 80s, something like 82, 83.
是的，我在 80 左右跑了 140，比如 82、83。
Did five measurements.
做了五次测量。
Michael Snyder: So did the acupuncture, which is designed for blood pressure and diabetes, and maybe I can go off the GLPs if all this works.
迈克尔·斯奈德：针灸也是如此，它是专为治疗血压和糖尿病而设计的，如果这一切有效的话，也许我可以放弃 GLP。
But anyway, the next day, I measured it the exact same time, and son of a gun, it was 25 points lower, it was the high teens, like 118 kind of thing.
但无论如何，第二天，我在同一时间测量了它，天哪，它低了 25 点，是高十几点，就像 118 之类的东西。
It was unbelievable.
这太令人难以置信了。
I can show you the data.
我可以给你看数据。
Andrew Huberman: Wow.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哇。
Michael Snyder: And the other one went to, like 72, right?
迈克尔·斯奈德：另外一个去了，比如 72，对吧？
Some...
有些...
The diastolic.
舒张压。
So I just, with one treatment...
所以我只需进行一次治疗...
That was electroacupuncture, I should say, so they zap you.
我应该说，那是电针疗法，所以他们会电击你。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: And they, yeah, had 30-some points.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的，他们得到了 30 多分。
And they've added a few more since.
此后他们又添加了一些。
You do it every week for eight weeks.
你每周都会这样做，持续八周。
So, I've now done four of these things, and I can tell you that my blood pressure stayed low.
所以，我现在已经做了四件事，我可以告诉你我的血压一直很低。
It's running in this one, high one teens, maybe 120, which is pretty good, roughly where you want to be, and the other is always around, maybe 74.
它在这一个中运行，一个十几岁，可能是 120，这相当不错，大致在你想要的位置，而另一个总是在附近，可能是 74。
So it's like, it was never running like that before.
所以就像以前从来没有这样运行过。
I can show you my data.
我可以给你看我的数据。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Andrew Huberman: That's great.
安德鲁·休伯曼：那太好了。
Michael Snyder: It's pretty incredible.
迈克尔·斯奈德：这太不可思议了。
So, it does seem to be working.
所以，它似乎确实有效。
Now, how long does it last?
现在，它能持续多久？
I'm only halfway through my treatments.
我的治疗才进行到一半。
I don't know, but I will track all this stuff, right?
我不知道，但我会追踪所有这些东西，对吧？
So I'm a responder, no question, to this treatment.
所以毫无疑问，我是这种治疗的反应者。
Andrew Huberman: I love hearing it.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我喜欢听它。
I haven't done acupuncture in years, so it's, and I've no-
我已经很多年没有做过针灸了，所以是的，而且我没有-
Michael Snyder: So you have done it?
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以你做到了？
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, years ago when I was a postdoc, a stressful time in my life, and then a junior professor, also a stressful time in my life, you know, a lot of uncertainty, writing grants and things of that sort.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，几年前，当我还是一名博士后时，我生活中充满压力的时期，然后是一名初级教授，也是我生活中充满压力的时期，你知道，有很多不确定性，写资助之类的事情。
My sister suggested I go see an acupuncturist, and I got a lot out of it in terms of stress reduction.
我姐姐建议我去看针灸师，在减轻压力方面我受益匪浅。
We'll put a link to it in the show note captions, but I'll also send you these papers from Qiufu Ma's lab that I mentioned a few months ago.
我们将在节目说明文字中放置一个链接，但我也会向您发送我几个月前提到的马秋福实验室的这些论文。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: First of all, not that this means everything, but published as articles and letters in "Nature", which has a very high bar for, you know, for not most papers get rejected, obviously, as you know.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：首先，这并不是说这意味着一切，而是以文章和信件的形式发表在《自然》杂志上，它的门槛非常高，你知道，因为显然，正如你所知，并不是大多数论文都会被拒绝。
And what they found is interesting, that the combination of needle placements turns out to be vitally important.
他们发现有趣的是，针的放置组合非常重要。
So in this one paper that Qiufu has, he shows that, for instance, if the needles are inserted into, like the equivalent of the palm area and the foot area, and some flank area, you get an increase in inflammatory cytokines, whereas if you change that combination, you get a decrease in inflammatory cytokines.
因此，在 Qiufu 的这篇论文中，他表明，例如，如果将针插入手掌区域、脚部区域以及某些胁腹区域，炎症细胞因子就会增加，而如果改变这种组合，炎症细胞因子就会减少。
But what's really beautiful about these papers is he maps it to specific output from the spleen regulated by the vagus nerve, regulated by these receptors at the level of the skin.
但这些论文的真正美妙之处在于，他将其映射到由迷走神经调节的脾脏的特定输出，并由皮肤水平的这些受体调节。
So mechanistically, it all makes sense.
所以从机制上来说，这一切都是有道理的。
It's just that these thousands of years of charts and data that have been collected in humans, you know, clinical practice has never been parsed mechanistically.
只是这些几千年来在人类身上收集到的图表和数据，你知道，临床实践从来没有被机械地解析过。
Michael Snyder: Sure.
迈克尔·斯奈德：当然。
Michael Snyder: Ah!
迈克尔·斯奈德：啊！
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Andrew Huberman: So I'm 100% a believer that there's a mechanistic basis, that it's not just all placebo.
Andrew Huberman：所以我 100% 相信这是有机械基础的，它不仅仅是安慰剂。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Andrew Huberman: Some of it might be placebo, much like some of the GLP appetite suppression might be placebo, but a lot of it probably isn't.
Andrew Huberman：其中一些可能是安慰剂，就像一些 GLP 食欲抑制可能是安慰剂一样，但很多可能不是。
So, in any case, I'm a fan of the rigorous exploration of things that have been thought to work for many, many years.
所以，无论如何，我热衷于对多年来被认为行之有效的事物进行严格的探索。
And it's always gratifying when you see, "Oh, like here's a mechanism that makes sense".
当你看到“哦，就像这是一个有意义的机制”时，总是令人欣慰的。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Michael Snyder: Yeah, it really does work.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的，它确实有效。
Andrew Huberman: So-
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以——
Michael Snyder: I mean, I go into this stuff completely open.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我的意思是，我完全开放地研究这些东西。
It may not work.
它可能不起作用。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: And I don't know, I didn't even...
迈克尔·斯奈德：我不知道，我什至没有……
And she said, "Oh..." because first of all, she said, "Well, just try acupuncture." I wasn't even sure what kind she was going to try.
她说，“哦……”因为首先，她说，“好吧，试试针灸吧。”我什至不确定她要尝试哪种。
So in the end she said, "Ah yeah, we'll do blood pressure and diabe..." Now, they've added on some stress points as well.
所以最后她说，“啊，是的，我们会做血压和糖尿病……”现在，他们还添加了一些压力点。
Andrew Huberman: Hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Michael Snyder: And I don't consider myself...
迈克尔·斯奈德：我不认为自己......
I'm probably in a high-stress job, but I don't consider myself a very stressful person.
我可能从事一份压力很大的工作，但我不认为自己是一个压力很大的人。
Andrew Huberman: But you don't seem stressed.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但你看起来并没有压力。
Michael Snyder: Yeah, I think I generally handle all right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的，我想我总体上处理得不错。
But anyway, they're putting all these things on me, and I didn't know, I was...
但无论如何，他们把所有这些东西都放在我身上，而我不知道，我......
24 hours later, is it going to work?
24小时后，还能用吗？
I don't know.
我不知道。
But the data, I mean, that was a pretty big jump, right?
但我的意思是，数据是一个相当大的跳跃，对吧？
Andrew Huberman: Speaking of fun and things that are, at least on the face of them, kind of out there, I have one final question.
安德鲁·休伯曼：说到乐趣和至少从表面上看是存在的事情，我有最后一个问题。
Which is, my understanding is, a few years ago, your laboratory was involved in looking at big data sets, genomics, proteomics, et cetera, from people who had attended a Tony Robbins event.
我的理解是，几年前，你们的实验室参与了从参加托尼·罗宾斯活动的人那里研究大数据集、基因组学、蛋白质组学等。
I don't know what the control condition was.
不知道控制条件是什么。
And I only know this because I believe it was a postdoc or a student in your lab who had reached out about some protocols that we had going in my lab in collaboration with the psychiatry department.
我知道这一点只是因为我相信是你们实验室的博士后或学生接触了我们实验室与精神病学部门合作制定的一些方案。
Andrew Huberman: Could you describe the contour of this study and I realize it's not published yet, but if there were any preliminary findings that you could share with us, I think that would be interesting.
Andrew Huberman：您能否描述一下这项研究的概况，我知道它尚未发表，但如果您可以与我们分享任何初步发现，我认为那会很有趣。
I'm interested generally in immersive events and psychological health, and there are interesting data comparing attendance of these events, which, by the way, I have no financial relationship to, never met Tony in person, or anything like that, with prescription antidepressant treatments.
我一般对沉浸式活动和心理健康感兴趣，并且有一些有趣的数据比较了这些活动的参加情况，顺便说一句，我与这些活动没有经济关系，也从未见过托尼本人，或类似的东西，与处方抗抑郁治疗。
And they actually measure up pretty well in terms of it...
他们实际上在这方面表现得很好......
I forgot how long-term the study was.
我忘记了研究的时间有多长。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: So, I'm generally an open person when it comes to ideas, but what was the study, and what did you find?
Andrew Huberman：所以，在谈到想法时，我通常是一个开放的人，但是这项研究是什么？你发现了什么？
Michael Snyder: Maybe to put it in context...
迈克尔·斯奈德：也许要把它放在上下文中......
So, this all started when a postdoc joined my lab, was very interested in mental health, and knowing that we're good at measurements and the idea...
所以，这一切都始于一位博士后加入我的实验室，他对心理健康非常感兴趣，并且知道我们擅长测量和想法......
And I thought about it a lot, and I realized that we don't measure mental health very well, right?
我想了很多，我意识到我们不能很好地衡量心理健康，对吗？
Surveys are still the gold standards for most things, and so how do you know if you're getting better?
调查仍然是大多数事情的黄金标准，那么您如何知道自己是否有所改善呢？
You do more surveys?
你做更多调查吗？
That whole concept is very unsatisfying to me.
整个概念让我非常不满意。
Michael Snyder: So we thought with the wearables, right, there's gotta be a lot of physiology around this thing, this biochemistry.
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以我们认为，对于可穿戴设备，对吧，围绕这个东西，这个生物化学，必须有很多生理学。
We do a lot of microsampling, I mentioned earlier, where you can now profile deeply.
我之前提到过，我们进行了大量的微采样，您现在可以深入分析。
So, we thought we could bring this kind of stuff, maybe.
所以，我们想也许我们可以带这种东西。
And we're still...
而我们还...
it's a growing area in the lab.
这是实验室中不断发展的领域。
I'm very interested in this because I've, I feel like there's a lot going on in the mental health space.
我对此非常感兴趣，因为我觉得心理健康领域正在发生很多事情。
It's just unexplored.
这只是未经探索的。
And the biggest problem is we just don't have good biomarkers.
最大的问题是我们没有好的生物标志物。
Michael Snyder: And for the meetings I've been at for the stuff that keeps popping up, number one: we don't have good biomarkers.
迈克尔·斯奈德：在我参加的会议中，不断出现的问题是，第一：我们没有好的生物标志物。
So we think the digital, meaning from the wearables, the microsampling could ultimately prove to give us good biomarkers.
因此，我们认为数字化，即可穿戴设备的微采样最终可以为我们提供良好的生物标志物。
We're already seeing some evidence of that now.
我们现在已经看到了一些证据。
So we ran several studies.
因此我们进行了多项研究。
We did one with Byron Katie, who runs one of these immersive programs.
我们与拜伦·凯蒂（Byron Katie）合作开展了一项活动，他负责运营其中一项沉浸式项目。
Andrew Huberman: Oh, yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哦，是的。
Michael Snyder: And I don't know anything about this stuff, and so I basically said, "All right, if we're going to do this, let's bring in..." First, we brought in a colleague, George Slavich, who you may or may not know.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我对这些东西一无所知，所以我基本上说，“好吧，如果我们要这样做，让我们引入......”首先，我们引入了一位同事，乔治·斯拉维奇（George Slavich），你可能认识也可能不认识。
He's basically an average childhood but knows a lot more than I do about the childhood, and I've met him and he's a very, very bright guy.
他基本上是一个普通的童年，但对童年的了解比我多得多，而且我见过他，他是一个非常非常聪明的人。
So he, you know, we came up with some surveys because we have to compare up against something.
所以他，你知道，我们进行了一些调查，因为我们必须与某些东西进行比较。
We put on smartwatches.
我们戴上智能手表。
The one on Byron Katie didn't quite work out, but we did do blood sampling and stuff for her, and even microbiome for people before and after.
拜伦·凯蒂的那个不太成功，但我们确实为她做了血液采样和其他东西，甚至为之前和之后的人做了微生物组。
In that case, it went out for a way.
在这种情况下，它就出去了。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Michael Snyder: And then, so we ran that study and then shortly thereafter, we ran a pilot one with Tony Robbins where we had a smallish number of people who did the Tony Robbins, and we profiled them, you know, before, right before, immediately after, and then at that point.
迈克尔·斯奈德：然后，我们进行了这项研究，不久之后，我们与托尼·罗宾斯一起进行了一项试点研究，我们有一小部分人做过托尼·罗宾斯，我们对他们进行了分析，你知道，之前，之前，之后，然后在那一点。
I think that study was done out for several months.
我认为这项研究已经完成了几个月。
And then I'll tell you about the larger one in a minute.
然后我会在一分钟内告诉你更大的一个。
And so, we had them do these surveys and things and I went in, I have no idea if this stuff works or not, and son of a gun, these people really did improve by these questionnaires, by the standards in the field.
所以，我们让他们做了这些调查和事情，然后我进去了，我不知道这些东西是否有效，天哪，这些人确实通过这些调查问卷、按照该领域的标准取得了进步。
Basically, they improved their markers.
基本上，他们改进了标记。
Andrew Huberman: Their mental health improved.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：他们的心理健康状况有所改善。
Michael Snyder: Their mental health, yeah, by the surveys.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的，根据调查，他们的心理健康状况。
So that first...
那么首先...
And that was true for the Byron Katie one.
拜伦·凯蒂的情况也是如此。
It was true for the Tony Robbins one.
对于托尼·罗宾斯来说，情况确实如此。
And the Byron Katie one, we now have some of the omics data back and they're imp...
还有拜伦·凯蒂，我们现在拿回了一些组学数据，它们很重要......
They do seem to improve in their inflammatory markers as well.
他们的炎症标记物似乎也有所改善。
Andrew Huberman: Wow.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哇。
Michael Snyder: So, we have some data there.
迈克尔·斯奈德：所以，我们有一些数据。
That's not yet published.
那还没有发布。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Her stuff, for people that aren't familiar, and I'm...
安德鲁·休伯曼：她的东西，对于不熟悉的人来说，我......
This is a very top contour thing, is a lot of reframing as I understand, through language, testing assumptions, counter, you know, challenging internal beliefs, external beliefs.
这是一个非常顶级的轮廓，据我所知，这是很多重构，通过语言、测试假设、反驳，你知道，挑战内部信念、外部信念。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Andrew Huberman: Again, I'm just scratching the surface and I'm probably getting some of it wrong.
Andrew Huberman：再说一遍，我只是触及了表面，我可能有些地方是错误的。
But just so, for those that don't know who Byron Katie is, whereas Tony Robbins, I think, more people are familiar with.
但正是如此，对于那些不知道拜伦·凯蒂是谁的人来说，我认为更多人熟悉托尼·罗宾斯。
Those are very immersive events.
这些都是非常身临其境的事件。
There's a lot of high-energy activity.
有很多高能量的活动。
Also, some breath work stuff done.
另外，还完成了一些呼吸工作。
Some almost hyp-
有些几乎是炒作-
Michael Snyder: It's supposed to be very intense.
迈克尔·斯奈德：应该会非常激烈。
Michael Snyder: I've never done it myself.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我自己从来没有这样做过。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Almost like self-hypnosis type stuff, where people direct themselves down a memory that's very painful, a memory that's very positive.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：几乎就像自我催眠类型的东西，人们将自己引导到一个非常痛苦的记忆，一个非常积极的记忆。
A lot of somatic stuff.
很多躯体的东西。
I mean, you know, there's a wide palette there.
我的意思是，你知道，那里有很广泛的调色板。
But anyway, hopefully that gives a little more context for people.
但无论如何，希望这能为人们提供更多背景信息。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Michael Snyder: So anyway, we did see a positive result on the pilot study and that was 20...
Michael Snyder：无论如何，我们确实在试点研究中看到了积极的结果，那就是 20...
I don't know, 27 people.
我不知道，27个人。
I may have the number wrong, but it's a small number.
我可能数字有误，但这个数字很小。
And then we now have done a follow-up and...
然后我们现在已经做了后续工作......
Well, I should tell you, actually, for the first one, they actually went out even further now.
好吧，我应该告诉你，实际上，对于第一个，他们现在实际上走得更远了。
They have some additional data points.
他们有一些额外的数据点。
But in the follow-up, there we did a much bigger one.
但在后续行动中，我们做了一个更大的事情。
That's 600, almost 700 people who went through Tony Robbins, and then we had another set of people who didn't do Tony Robbins, who we also profiled.
那是 600 人，几乎 700 人经历过托尼·罗宾斯，然后我们还有另一组人没有经历过托尼·罗宾斯，我们也对他们进行了介绍。
Michael Snyder: And the same thing.
迈克尔·斯奈德：同样的事情。
Basically, they wore smartwatches.
基本上，他们戴着智能手表。
We had to scramble to get the IRB approval.
我们必须努力获得IRB 的批准。
It's always a rate-limiting step.
这始终是一个限速步骤。
So we didn't get as many wearables on folks as ahead of time, but we did do the microsampling.
因此，我们没有像之前那样为人们提供那么多可穿戴设备，但我们确实进行了微采样。
We did do all the surveys, and we have a battery of wellness surveys.
我们确实进行了所有调查，并且进行了一系列健康调查。
It wouldn't be official depression scores and things, but they're things about, you know, are you depressed, and anxiety, and burnout, and all kinds of stuff.
它不会是官方的抑郁症评分之类的东西，但它们是关于你是否抑郁、焦虑、倦怠以及各种各样的东西。
So, it's a series of questionnaires.
所以，这是一系列的调查问卷。
They did it before, they did it immediately after, one month, three months, six months, one year.
他们以前这样做过，之后立即这样做，一个月，三个月，六个月，一年。
Michael Snyder: And it's a pretty sizable study now.
迈克尔·斯奈德：现在这是一项相当大的研究。
Like say, it's almost 700 people who did it.
比如说，有近 700 人这样做了。
700 people who were controls.
700 人为对照。
But I will say, the caveat is they're not randomly assigned because the people who did it did it, signed up for it, and the people who didn't do it, well, they did it separate.
但我要说的是，需要注意的是，他们不是随机分配的，因为做这件事的人做了，注册了，而没有做的人，嗯，他们是分开做的。
So that's the only caveat that I see, but the bottom line is, the ones who did do it, once again, they improved in all...
所以这是我看到的唯一警告，但最重要的是，那些确实做到了的人，再一次，他们在所有方面都得到了进步......
Like, virtually all these things.
就像，几乎所有这些事情。
Anxiety, depression.
焦虑、抑郁。
Andrew Huberman: Significantly.
安德鲁·休伯曼：意义重大。
Michael Snyder: Significantly, yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：很重要，是的。
And we have just put together a paper on the psychological part now, and then on the...
我们现在刚刚整理了一篇关于心理学部分的论文，然后是......
We're still doing the omic stuff.
我们仍在做组学方面的工作。
So we actually did the microsampling I mentioned earlier, where they gave samples before for not everybody.
因此，我们实际上进行了我之前提到的微采样，他们之前为并非所有人提供了样本。
Not everybody signed up for that, but it's like 130, 140 people who did the micro sampling immediately after each of those same time points.
并不是每个人都报名参加，但大约有 130、140 人在每个相同时间点后立即进行了微采样。
And so we will see.
我们将会看到。
That data is still coming in.
该数据仍在不断输入。
And hopefully we'll know in a few months.
希望几个月后我们就会知道。
Michael Snyder: But at least on the survey stuff, these people did all improve, and that control group, which was separate, did not.
迈克尔·斯奈德：但至少在调查方面，这些人确实都有进步，而单独的对照组则没有。
And it is significant, so I'm sure we'll put the paper up on either bioRxiv, which is this pre-print thing, or we can even send you a copy.
这很重要，所以我确信我们会将这篇论文放在 bioRxiv 上，这是预印本，或者我们甚至可以向您发送一份副本。
I'll see if my person who's been running that's up for that.
我会看看我的负责人是否能做到这一点。
So anyway, yeah.
所以无论如何，是的。
It does work.
它确实有效。
It's pretty amazing, actually.
事实上，这真是太神奇了。
So again, people, a lot, not everybody's in the so-called depressed state or whatever.
再说一次，人们，很多人，并不是每个人都处于所谓的抑郁状态或其他什么状态。
It's kind of worked out half-and-half.
这有点像一半一半的结果。
And their values all improved.
他们的价值观都得到了提高。
Again, not 100%, but pretty darn most of them.
再说一遍，虽然不是 100%，但大部分都是相当不错的。
It sort of surprised me.
这让我有点惊讶。
And obviously, in the control group, we didn't see anything, so it looks pretty good.
显然，在对照组中，我们没有看到任何东西，所以看起来相当不错。
Andrew Huberman: Wow.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哇。
Well, I love how you are willing to explore these sorts of things.
嗯，我喜欢你愿意探索这类事情。
Michael Snyder: Well, people have asked me, "Mike, what the hell are you doing here?" And I said, "I don't know.
迈克尔·斯奈德：嗯，人们问我，“迈克，你到底在这里做什么？”我说：“我不知道。
I'll just...
我就...
But let's take a..." Like, thousands of people do this stuff.
但让我们考虑一下……”就像，成千上万的人都在做这样的事情。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Michael Snyder: Shouldn't somebody look at this?
迈克尔·斯奈德：难道不应该有人看看这个吗？
Andrew Huberman: I know.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我知道。
Michael Snyder: I think the answer is yes.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我认为答案是肯定的。
Andrew Huberman: I know people who I would characterize as highly motivated generally toward their health and careers, et cetera, relationships, who had pain points of struggle in one or several domains of life, or just were in a kind of aimless part of life, or struggling with something, who went and did one of these immersive seminars and reported, and it does seem from the outside as well to be positively transformed.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我认识一些人，我认为这些人通常对自己的健康和职业等关系有着高度的积极性，他们在生活的一个或几个领域中遇到了挣扎的痛点，或者只是处于生活中一种漫无目的的部分，或者在某些事情上挣扎，他们参加了一场沉浸式研讨会并进行了报道，从外部来看，他们似乎也得到了积极的转变。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Andrew Huberman: They continued to do the work on their own.
Andrew Huberman：他们继续自己做这项工作。
Michael Snyder: That's correct, yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：没错，是的。
They're-
他们是——
Andrew Huberman: You know, they continue to do practices that they learned there on their own.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你知道，他们继续练习自己在那里学到的做法。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Andrew Huberman: Seems to be an important component.
Andrew Huberman：似乎是一个重要组成部分。
But, you know, I think what's exciting about these kinds of experiments and conversations to me is that, whereas five years ago, certainly 10 years ago, any discussion about...
但是，你知道，我认为这些实验和对话对我来说令人兴奋的是，五年前，当然是十年前，任何关于……的讨论。
Let's just think about some of the themes that we've touched on, right?
让我们想想我们已经触及的一些主题，对吧？
Breathwork, long exhales, slow your heart rate, we know that.
深呼吸、长呼气会减慢心率，我们知道这一点。
It's the respiratory sinus arrhythmia, increases HRV.
这是呼吸性窦性心律失常，HRV 增加。
We know that, right?
我们知道，对吧？
I asked you about meditation, you don't meditate, but exercise-
我问你冥想，你不是冥想，而是锻炼——
Michael Snyder: Well, I used to.
迈克尔·斯奈德：嗯，我以前也是这样。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Michael Snyder: And I'd like to get back to it.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我想回到正题。
It's a-
这是一个——
Andrew Huberman: And certainly there are data to support it.
Andrew Huberman：当然有数据支持它。
Yeah.
是的。
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Michael Snyder: Absolutely.
迈克尔·斯奈德：当然。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Resistance training.
阻力训练。
You know, I'm about to turn 50, as I mentioned.
你知道，正如我提到的，我即将年满 50 岁。
When I was in high school, the only people who did weightlifting were bodybuilders, people going off to the military or preseason football players.
当我上高中时，唯一做举重的人是健美运动员、去参军的人或季前赛橄榄球运动员。
They told us it would turn to fat if we stopped, and we shouldn't weight train, right?
他们告诉我们，如果我们停下来，它就会变成脂肪，我们不应该进行重量训练，对吗？
We know that's completely false.
我们知道这完全是错误的。
Everyone should weight train.
每个人都应该进行重量训练。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Andrew Huberman: Women should weight train, men should weight train.
安德鲁·休伯曼：女性应该进行重量训练，男性也应该进行重量训练。
Especially as you get old, right?
尤其是当你老了，对吧？
Michael Snyder: Yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Byron Katie, Tony Robbins have entered the conversation.
安德鲁·休伯曼：拜伦·凯蒂、托尼·罗宾斯加入了谈话。
Their work, that is, Acupuncture.
他们的工作，就是针灸。
You're parsing diabetes into these subcategories or phenotypes.
您正在将糖尿病解析为这些子类别或表型。
We're now no longer talking about fiber as a single thing.
我们现在不再将纤维作为单一事物来讨论。
You've now divided that into separable, actionable paths for addressing one's health, improving one's health.
您现在已将其分为可分离的、可操作的路径来解决一个人的健康问题，改善一个人的健康状况。
Andrew Huberman: And so, you know, this really just brings me to what I've been thinking more and more, as I've read your work and certainly after today's conversation, which is that, I'm so grateful that somebody like you, who is into big data, you like numbers, you like statistics, you like proteomics, genomics, RNA-Seq.
Andrew Huberman：所以，你知道，这确实让我想到了我一直在思考的事情，因为我读了你的工作，当然在今天的谈话之后，我非常感激像你这样热衷于大数据的人，你喜欢数字，你喜欢统计学，你喜欢蛋白质组学、基因组学、RNA 测序。
You know, I mean, this is serious science, that you're willing to look at what's out there, what people are doing, what they're willing to do, and ask, "What are the things to avoid?
你知道，我的意思是，这是一门严肃的科学，你愿意看看外面发生了什么，人们在做什么，他们愿意做什么，然后问：“要避免什么事情？
What are the things to do more of?" And really customizing it for people's needs.
哪些事情值得多做？”并真正根据人们的需求进行定制。
Andrew Huberman: I think it's truly important/heroic work, because it really would take somebody in your position, you know, at least until very recently, you were Chair of the Department of Genetics, but you're a professor of genetics, trained at Caltech and all these places, to really embrace these different directions in health with serious mechanistic, reductionist approaches.
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：我认为这是真正重要/英雄的工作，因为它确实需要像你这样的人，你知道，至少直到最近，你还是遗传学系主任，但你是一名遗传学教授，在加州理工学院和所有这些地方接受过培训，以严肃的机械化、还原论方法真正拥抱健康领域的这些不同方向。
But then be able to step back and say, "Here's what I do.
但随后可以退一步说：“这就是我所做的。
Here's what people are doing.
这就是人们正在做的事情。
Here's what seems to help.
这似乎有帮助。
Here's what we don't know." And there seems to be basically no limit to what you're willing to explore using these highly rigorous tools.
这是我们不知道的。”使用这些高度严格的工具，您愿意探索的内容似乎基本上没有限制。
So, I just want to really extend my gratitude.
所以，我只想真诚地表达我的谢意。
And I know the gratitude that people who've listened to this and have watched this are surely feeling, because things have been very siloed up until recently.
我知道听过这个、看过这个的人们肯定会感受到感激之情，因为直到最近事情才变得非常孤立。
Andrew Huberman: And you're one of the people I really see as putting sand and hopefully concrete between those silos, because this notion of health and health practice is really just one thing, and we need to be less siloed.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我确实认为你是在这些筒仓之间放置沙子和混凝土的人之一，因为健康和健康实践的概念实际上只是一回事，我们需要减少筒仓。
So, thank you for doing that.
所以，谢谢你这么做。
Michael Snyder: Oh, sure.
迈克尔·斯奈德：哦，当然。
I think you bring up a good point.
我认为你提出了一个很好的观点。
I think we're trained to be siloed.
我认为我们被训练成孤立的。
That's part of the problem as you go through graduate school and things like that.
当你读研究生或类似的事情时，这就是问题的一部分。
Even medicine, right?
连药都可以吧？
You have people trained in very specific areas, so they never look at the whole.
人们在非常具体的领域接受过培训，所以他们从不关注整体。
Yet we know, again, that we are homeostatic systems that involves all these different things, and you'll never solve it.
然而我们再次知道，我们是涉及所有这些不同事物的稳态系统，而且你永远无法解决它。
Like, I like to say when I got ...
就像，我喜欢说当我...
because everybody on my father's side has died of heart problems, and I used to have high cholesterol until I went on statins.
因为我父亲那边的每个人都死于心脏病，而我的胆固醇水平曾经很高，直到我开始服用他汀类药物。
I'm on PCSK9 inhibitors, and they're amazing.
我正在服用 PCSK9 抑制剂，效果非常好。
And, you know, my heart guy would tell me, "Well, you need to raise your statins." He didn't think it was low enough.
而且，你知道，我的心肝宝贝会告诉我，“好吧，你需要提高他汀类药物的水平。”他认为这个数字还不够低。
I said, "Well, when I do that, my glucose goes up." And that's very textbook, by the way.
我说：“好吧，当我这样做时，我的血糖就会上升。”顺便说一句，这非常教科书。
Michael Snyder: And I finally called him, I said, "Look, your job is to stop me from getting a heart attack, but you don't care if I have all these other complications, right?" And I would say the same to the diabetes people.
迈克尔·斯奈德：我最后给他打电话，我说，“看，你的工作是阻止我心脏病发作，但你不在乎我是否有所有这些其他并发症，对吧？”我也会对糖尿病患者说同样的话。
I'd say, "Well, you know, you're trying to control my glucose, but you did so many other things." And I just don't think that's the right way you want to look at people.
我会说，“嗯，你知道，你试图控制我的血糖，但你做了很多其他事情。”我只是认为这不是你看待他人的正确方式。
We need to bring in all the data, all these things.
我们需要引入所有数据，所有这些东西。
We've touched on these points about genetics and epigenetics and lifestyle, and I think the whole, you know, communication side, the whole socialization, is very understudied.
我们已经谈到了有关遗传学、表观遗传学和生活方式的这些观点，我认为整个沟通方面、整个社会化方面的研究还很不足。
Michael Snyder: I also like it from the academic side, because when you go into these areas where you don't know anything, even when you stumble around, you're going to learn something.
迈克尔·斯奈德：从学术方面来说我也喜欢它，因为当你进入这些你什么都不知道的领域时，即使你跌跌撞撞，你也会学到一些东西。
So, that's kind of how I view our work in mental health and now socialization, I hope.
所以，我希望这就是我对心理健康和社会化工作的看法。
So, I just hope that we can learn some kind of cool stuff that will be useful.
所以，我只是希望我们能够学到一些有用的很酷的东西。
And then I think now we're in an amazing position, right?
然后我想现在我们处于一个令人惊奇的位置，对吧？
Where we have the tools with AI, because no one person can do this, right?
我们拥有人工智能工具，因为没有人可以做到这一点，对吗？
You don't want a doctor who doesn't use AI now.
你不会想要一个现在不使用人工智能的医生。
You want someone who can pull in all that information.
您需要一个能够获取所有这些信息的人。
And this is what the companies are really good at.
而这正是这些公司真正擅长的。
Michael Snyder: Again, it's one of the reasons we spin these things off.
迈克尔·斯奈德：这也是我们剥离这些东西的原因之一。
Like, January AI has this, they call it a mirror that builds kind of, like, it'll take all your data, your genomics data, all your reports, all these various things, and runs an AI engine, obviously trained in a certain fashion, and gives you back an incredibly long report.
就像，January AI 有这个，他们称之为一面镜子，它会构建一个镜像，就像它会获取你所有的数据、你的基因组数据、所有报告、所有这些各种各样的东西，并运行一个人工智能引擎，显然以某种方式进行训练，然后给你返回一份非常长的报告。
But though you do get a summary, so you can decipher it.
但尽管你确实得到了一个摘要，所以你可以解读它。
And then it pulls all the stuff together to make insights.
然后它将所有内容整合在一起以形成见解。
And so, for example, I didn't realize I knew my CD8 T cells.
例如，我没有意识到我了解我的 CD8 T 细胞。
Again, this gets a little specialized, but they were low, which I did see on the report, but it has this whole zinc recommendation thing, and I don't know if that's right, but I'm going to look into it more.
再说一次，这有点专业化，但它们很低，我确实在报告中看到了这一点，但它有整个锌推荐的事情，我不知道这是否正确，但我会更多地研究它。
It can make suggestions that no doctor's going to figure out with all this stuff, so you do need these new systems, and that is the future.
它可以提出任何医生都无法弄清楚的建议，所以你确实需要这些新系统，这就是未来。
We're all going to have our own personalized systems pulling data.
我们都将拥有自己的个性化系统来提取数据。
Michael Snyder: I mentioned earlier about iolo, the same thing about your metabolic profile, pulling other information to give you recommendations.
Michael Snyder：我之前提到过 iolo，你的代谢概况也是如此，它会提取其他信息来为你提供建议。
That's going to be true.
那将是真的。
Again, those are specific examples for me, but I think that's your...
再说一次，这些对我来说是具体的例子，但我认为那是你的......
Every one of your doctors of the future is going to have to do this stuff.
未来的每一位医生都必须做这些事情。
Otherwise, you're not going to get full value out of all these measurements, which we should be doing, that will better improve our health.
否则，您将无法从所有这些测量中获得全部价值，而我们应该这样做，这将更好地改善我们的健康。
Andrew Huberman: I love it.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我喜欢它。
It's a beautiful vision, and I can see a day not too far from now where if somebody has a whole body scan dataset, some blood tests, maybe they have some tracking data, they just upload it to a website, and their physician runs it through AI and makes of it what they can.
这是一个美丽的愿景，我可以预见在不久的将来，如果有人拥有全身扫描数据集、一些血液测试，也许他们有一些跟踪数据，他们只需将其上传到网站，他们的医生就会通过人工智能运行它，并尽其所能。
It certainly won't be everything that's possible, but that's certainly better than not taking that data into account.
当然不会是所有可能的情况，但这肯定比不考虑这些数据要好。
Michael Snyder: Correct.
迈克尔·斯奈德：正确。
Andrew Huberman: And of course, physicians can also still choose to ignore it all, most of them do now, by being totally unaware that it exists or saying, "Oh, yeah, you said your heart rate variability was reduced for a week, but what does that mean to me?" It could be any number of things, right?
Andrew Huberman：当然，医生仍然可以选择忽略这一切，他们中的大多数人现在都这样做，完全不知道它的存在，或者说，“哦，是的，你说你的心率变异性降低了一周，但这对我意味着什么？”可能有很多事情，对吧？
But now that they can start to make sense of it if they choose to.
但现在，如果他们愿意的话，他们可以开始理解它。
Michael Snyder: Right.
迈克尔·斯奈德：对。
Andrew Huberman: I think it's important, because after all, people, we can't forget, the physicians work for you, not the other way around.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为这很重要，因为毕竟，我们不能忘记，医生是为你工作，而不是相反。
So...
所以...
Michael Snyder: 100% agree, yeah.
迈克尔·斯奈德：100%同意，是的。
Andrew Huberman: Well, thanks so much for the work that you're doing.
Andrew Huberman：嗯，非常感谢您所做的工作。
I've been told, and I strongly believe that in the world of science, there are mapmakers and there are explorers, and the explorers are the ones that really make the discoveries that matter, and you're clearly an explorer.
有人告诉我，我坚信，在科学世界中，有制图者，也有探险家，而探险家才是真正做出重要发现的人，而你显然是一名探险家。
And I'm grateful for the work you're doing.
我很感谢你所做的工作。
I'm also grateful that you took the time to come talk to us today.
我也很感激您今天抽出时间来与我们交谈。
So, I'd love to get updates in the, in the not too distant future.
所以，我很想在不久的将来获得更新。
Meanwhile, I'll see you back at the farm.
与此同时，我会在农场见你。
Michael Snyder: Thanks so much for having me here.
迈克尔·斯奈德：非常感谢您邀请我来到这里。
It's been a blast.
真是太棒了。
Andrew Huberman: Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Michael Snyder.
Andrew Huberman：感谢您参加今天与迈克尔·斯奈德的讨论。
To learn more about his research and to find links to the various things discussed during today's episode, please see the show note captions.
要了解有关他的研究的更多信息并找到今天节目中讨论的各种内容的链接，请参阅节目注释标题。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
Another terrific zero-cost way to support us is to click the "Follow" button on Apple or Spotify Podcasts, or both.
支持我们的另一种极好的零成本方式是单击 Apple 或 Spotify 播客或两者上的“关注”按钮。
And on YouTube, Apple, and Spotify, you can leave us comments, so if you have comments for me about today's episode or you have guests or topics you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab episode, please put those in the comments section on YouTube, Apple, or Spotify.
在 YouTube、Apple 和 Spotify 上，您可以给我们留下评论，因此，如果您对今天的剧集有任何评论，或者您希望我在 Huberman Lab 剧集中考虑嘉宾或主题，请将这些评论放入 YouTube、Apple 或 Spotify 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
Andrew Huberman: Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
Andrew Huberman：另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
And I should mention that I only work with sponsors whose products I absolutely love and personally use.
我应该提到的是，我只与我绝对喜欢并亲自使用其产品的赞助商合作。
And if you're not already following me on social media, I am "hubermanlab" on all social media platforms.
如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我在所有社交媒体平台上都是“hubermanlab”。
So, that's Instagram, X, formerly known as Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, and Threads, and on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content covered on the Huberman Lab podcast.
所以，这就是 Instagram、X，以前称为 Twitter、LinkedIn、Facebook 和 Threads，在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与 Huberman Lab 播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与 Huberman Lab 播客中涵盖的内容不同。
Again, that's "hubermanlab" on all social media platforms.
同样，所有社交媒体平台上都是“hubermanlab”。
Andrew Huberman: And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes protocols, brief one to three-page PDFs that explain the critical to-dos, to, for instance, improve your resistance training, your strength that is, your cardiovascular fitness, nutrition, dopamine regulation, how to optimize your sleep, learning plasticity, and on and on.
Andrew Huberman：如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括协议、简要的一到三页的 PDF，解释了关键的待办事项，例如，改善您的阻力训练、您的力量（即心血管健康、营养、多巴胺调节）、如何优化您的睡眠、学习可塑性等等。
Again, all available completely zero cost, all in the form of brief one to three-page PDFs.
同样，所有这些都完全零成本，全部以简短的一到三页 PDF 的形式提供。
To sign up, you simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the top right corner menu, scroll down to Newsletter, and enter your email.
要注册，您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角菜单，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件。
And I should mention that we do not share your email with anybody.
我应该指出的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Andrew Huberman: Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Michael Snyder.
Andrew Huberman：再次感谢您参加今天与迈克尔·斯奈德的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。