Tools to Bolster Your Mental Health & Confidence | Dr. Paul Conti

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

There's far more going right in any of us, in all of us, than there is going wrong if we're here.

如果我们在这里，我们每个人、我们所有人的正确之处都远远多于错误之处。

And if we're listening to educational material, we want to better ourselves, there's so much more that's going right in us, and it's a good place for us to start because it helps us to be able to look at what's not going the way we want it to be, where we want to bring change in our lives.

如果我们在听教育材料，我们想要变得更好，我们身上还有很多东西正在发生，这对我们来说是一个很好的起点，因为它帮助我们能够看到哪些事情没有按照我们想要的方式发展，哪些事情没有按照我们想要的方式发展，哪些事情是我们想要为我们的生活带来改变的。

But we should start from a position of strength.

但我们应该从强势地位开始。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

My guest today is Dr. Paul Conti.

今天我的嘉宾是保罗·孔蒂博士。

Dr. Paul Conti is a medical doctor and psychiatrist and an expert in recovery from trauma.

Paul Conti 博士是一位医生和精神病学家，也是创伤康复方面的专家。

He is also one of the foremost public educators on how anyone can build a greater sense of agency, confidence, and well-being in their life.

他也是最重要的公共教育家之一，致力于帮助人们在生活中建立更大的能动性、自信和幸福感。

Today we discuss the practical aspects of building and maintaining mental health, in particular, how to identify your natural strengths and the often unseen opportunities to improve your reflexive mental framework and relationship with self and others.

今天，我们讨论建立和维持心理健康的实际问题，特别是如何识别您的自然优势以及经常看不见的机会来改善您的反射性心理框架以及与自我和他人的关系。

Dr. Conti's approach to building mental health and overcoming challenges with mental health are very different than most of the information that you'll find on the internet and elsewhere.

康蒂博士建立心理健康和克服心理健康挑战的方法与您在互联网和其他地方找到的大多数信息非常不同。

He has decades of clinical experience, and he draws on that and data to explain the specific questions that we all need to ask ourselves when we're facing things like lowered motivation, mood, or challenges overcoming bad habits.

他拥有数十年的临床经验，他利用这些经验和数据来解释当我们面临动力、情绪低落或克服坏习惯的挑战等问题时，我们都需要问自己的具体问题。

Today we discuss all of that, as well as how to balance action and introspection.

今天我们讨论所有这些，以及如何平衡行动和内省。

And this is very important because I think a lot of people think about mental health as merely an introspective process, but as Dr. Conti points out, it's really a balance of thinking and doing, and often involves more doing than thinking.

这非常重要，因为我认为很多人认为心理健康仅仅是一个内省的过程，但正如康迪博士指出的，这实际上是思考和行动的平衡，并且往往涉及更多的行动而不是思考。

So during today's episode, you'll get a specific framework of questions to ask yourself repeatedly, that is every day or every week, and specific action steps to take so that you can truly become the best version of yourself and derive the greatest sense of meaning along the way.

因此，在今天的节目中，您将获得一个需要每天或每周反复问自己的特定问题框架，以及要采取的具体行动步骤，以便您能够真正成为最好的自己，并在此过程中获得最大的意义感。

I'd like to point out that Dr. Conti also has a new book coming out, which is aptly entitled, "What's Going Right?

我想指出的是，孔蒂博士还出版了一本新书，书名恰如其分，“什么是正确的？

A Powerful New Method for Optimizing Your Mental Health." And I've read the book from front to back, and I have to tell you, it's a wonderful resource that includes both information and simple worksheet-like prompts that can help anyone through sticking points as well as to build on what the title suggests, what's already going right.

优化心理健康的强大新方法。”我从头到尾读过这本书，我必须告诉你，这是一个很棒的资源，既包含信息，又包含简单的类似工作表的提示，可以帮助任何人解决难点，并以标题所暗示的内容和已经进展顺利的内容为基础。

So if you're currently suffering or if you're doing well and you want to level up your mental health further, today's conversation is definitely for you.

因此，如果您目前正在遭受痛苦，或者如果您表现良好并且想进一步提高心理健康水平，那么今天的谈话绝对适合您。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。

In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.

为了与这个主题保持一致，今天的节目确实有赞助商。

And now for my discussion with Dr. Paul Conti.

现在我与保罗·康迪博士进行讨论。

Dr. Paul Conti, welcome back.

保罗·孔蒂博士，欢迎回来。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Thank you.

谢谢你。

Thank you for having me back.

谢谢你让我回来。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Congratulations on your book, "What's Going Right?

恭喜您出版了《什么是正确的？

A Powerful New Method for Optimizing Your Mental Health." It's an amazing book.

优化心理健康的强大新方法。”这是一本很棒的书。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Thank you.

谢谢你。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And you also hold the record, not incidentally, I think for the most viewed and downloaded episodes of this podcast ever so-

而且你还保持着记录，这并非偶然，我认为对于这个播客有史以来观看次数和下载次数最多的剧集来说——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Wow

哇

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

you know, you got a lot of Huberman podcast listener fans out there.

你知道，那里有很多休伯曼播客听众粉丝。

So-

所以——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Wow

哇

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

they'll be reading if they're smart-

如果他们聪明的话他们就会读书-

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Well, thank you

嗯，谢谢你

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and they want to be-

他们希望成为——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

I appreciate

我很欣赏

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

be better.

变得更好。

They want to feel enriched in all the ways.

他们希望在各方面都感到充实。

So let's talk about-

那么我们来谈谈——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Thank you

谢谢你

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

let's talk about individuals first, and then I also want to talk today about interactions between people, which we probably haven't talked quite as much about-

我们先说个人，然后我今天也想谈一下人与人之间的互动，这个我们可能还没有讲得那么多——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Okay

好的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

at least not here.

至少不在这里。

The self.

自我。

We all have a name, a self-concept.

我们都有一个名字，一个自我概念。

We wake up thinking and knowing essentially who we are, what bothers us, what we're excited about.

我们醒来时会思考并了解我们本质上是谁，什么困扰着我们，我们对什么感到兴奋。

And the question I've been living with for a long time is how malleable is our self-view and our relationship to ourself?

我长期以来一直面临的一个问题是，我们的自我观以及我们与自己的关系有多大的可塑性？

And we can define those, right?

我们可以定义这些，对吧？

If we're not super comfortable or completely happy with our relationship to ourselves, how much flexibility is there on that whole picture?

如果我们对与自己的关系感到不太舒服或完全满意，那么整个情况还有多少灵活性？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

I think it's very malleable.

我认为它的可塑性非常强。

I think there's a lot of flexibility, but we have to be willing to look at ourselves.

我认为有很大的灵活性，但我们必须愿意审视自己。

Very often we're not looking at ourselves.

很多时候我们没有审视自己。

We're afraid of what we're going to find, or we don't know how to understand or how to bring change, so we don't look at ourselves, and then we can see ourselves as inflexible and think that we're just stuck in the same place over time.

我们害怕我们将要发现的东西，或者我们不知道如何理解或如何带来改变，所以我们不审视自己，然后我们就会认为自己不灵活，并认为随着时间的推移，我们只是停留在同一个地方。

But if we're willing to look at ourselves and we bring this compassionate curiosity to ourselves of, "Hey, what can I learn about myself and what might I be interested in changing in myself or in emphasizing in myself?" I think we can bring a lot of change.

但如果我们愿意审视自己，并带着这种富有同情心的好奇心，“嘿，我能了解自己什么？我可能对改变自己或强调自己感兴趣？”我认为我们可以带来很多改变。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The title of your book, "What's Going Right?" Is that a good lens to start looking through when we look at ourself?

你的书的标题是“什么是正确的？”当我们审视自己时，这是一个开始审视自己的好镜头吗？

Like, what works?

比如，什么有效？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Ten fingers, 10 toes, in my case.

就我而言，十个手指，十个脚趾。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is that a good place to start?

这是一个好的起点吗？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That I feel some sense of agency over a number of areas of my life.

我在生活的许多领域都感受到了某种代理感。

Is that the way to start wading into the questions about self?

这是开始涉足有关自我的问题的方式吗？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

I think to start off with what's going right, it's not just a way of looking at it because it feels better, but it's consistent with truth.

我认为从正确的事情开始，这不仅仅是一种看待问题的方式，因为它感觉更好，而且它符合事实。

There's far more going right in any of us, in all of us, than there is going wrong if we're here.

如果我们在这里，我们每个人、我们所有人的正确之处都远远多于错误之处。

And if we're listening to educational material, we want to better ourselves, there's so much more that's going right in us, and it's a good place for us to start because it helps us to be able to look at what's not going the way we want it to be, where we want to bring change in our lives.

如果我们在听教育材料，我们想要变得更好，我们身上还有很多东西正在发生，这对我们来说是一个很好的起点，因为它帮助我们能够看到哪些事情没有按照我们想要的方式发展，哪些事情没有按照我们想要的方式发展，哪些事情是我们想要为我们的生活带来改变的。

But we should start from a position of strength.

但我们应该从强势地位开始。

And the mental health system really tells us to look at ourselves in the opposite way, to look at ourselves through what is going wrong and to put labels on ourselves that often just make us feel worse or make us feel more helpless or hopeless in understanding.

心理健康系统确实告诉我们以相反的方式看待自己，通过问题来审视自己，并给自己贴上标签，这些标签往往只会让我们感觉更糟，或者让我们在理解方面感到更加无助或绝望。

But if we start with what's going right and we bring curiosity to ourselves, then there are processes we can follow to understand and to bring real change.

但如果我们从正确的事情开始，并对自己产生好奇心，那么我们就可以遵循一些流程来理解并带来真正的改变。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What are some of those processes that people could use to explore?

人们可以用来探索哪些过程？

And if you would, what are some questions that people can...

如果你愿意的话，人们可以提出哪些问题......

or thoughts or landscapes to explore where people can ping themselves with specific questions?

或者思考或探索人们可以向自己提出具体问题的地方？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

So good places to start are looking at your self-talk.

因此，最好的起点就是观察你的自言自语。

What are you saying to yourself in quiet moments when no one else is listening or when there's a pause in the action in your life?

当没有人在听的安静时刻或者当你的生活中的行动暂停时，你会对自己说什么？

What are you saying to yourself?

你在对自己说什么？

What messages are you giving yourself?

你给自己什么信息？

And oftentimes, we're telling ourselves things about ourselves that are often negative or often critical, and we're not aware that we're saying these things over and over to ourselves.

很多时候，我们会告诉自己一些关于自己的事情，这些事情往往是消极的或批评的，而我们却没有意识到我们正在一遍又一遍地对自己说这些事情。

So, that's just one strategy.

所以，这只是一种策略。

And another strategy can be to think about the life narrative that we're telling ourselves.

另一种策略是思考我们告诉自己的生活叙事。

So if you just tell yourself about yourself, or if you're telling someone else about you, what is it that you say?

所以，如果你只是告诉自己关于你自己的事情，或者如果你正在告诉别人关于你的事情，你说的是什么？

What is it that you say in a reflexive way, and does it match what's real and true about your life?

您以反射性的方式说出了什么？它是否符合您生活中的真实情况？

All people have these two foundational pillars and in the first part of the series that we did in 2023, we really sort of hashed this out, and it was the first time it really put together, hey, there's a structure of self, and we all share this.

所有人都有这两个基本支柱，在我们 2023 年所做的该系列的第一部分中，我们确实对此进行了讨论，这是它第一次真正放在一起，嘿，有一个自我结构，我们都共享这个。

And I'd been thinking along these lines, but our talk helped me to pull together, hey, there's something that applies to all of us.

我一直在沿着这些思路思考，但我们的谈话帮助我团结起来，嘿，有些东西适用于我们所有人。

Just because we're human and we have a human brain and a human mind, there is a structure of self and a function of self, and these foundational pillars are where we can look to understand ourselves better and to bring better health.

正因为我们是人类，我们有人类的大脑和人类的思想，所以就有自我的结构和自我的功能，而这些基本支柱是我们可以更好地了解自己并带来更好的健康的地方。

So if we are aware of where to look and how to look, and we're willing to look because we're not afraid of what we're going to find, and we have a belief that we can bring change, and this is how we bring flexibility and malleability, and we can approach ourselves feeling really good that, hey, if I do this, I am going to be able to make things better.

因此，如果我们知道在哪里寻找以及如何寻找，我们愿意寻找，因为我们不害怕我们会发现什么，并且我们相信我们可以带来改变，这就是我们带来灵活性和可塑性的方式，我们可以让自己感觉非常好，嘿，如果我这样做，我就能让事情变得更好。

There's so much hopefulness to that, and it's reasonably grounded hopefulness.

这充满了希望，而且是有理由的希望。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I have a question that might seem like a leap somewhere else, but I promise it ties back to what we're talking about.

我有一个问题，可能看起来像是在其他地方的飞跃，但我保证它与我们正在讨论的内容相关。

In your experience with psychiatry and the brain and patients and interacting with people in your own life, do you think that there's tremendous variation or little variation in how state-dependent people are?

根据您在精神病学、大脑和患者方面的经验以及与您自己生活中的人互动的经验，您认为人们的状态依赖程度存在巨大差异还是差异很小？

Some people, it seems they're so affiliative that when they're in relating to somebody else, they think and feel completely differently than they do when they're on their own.

有些人似乎非常有归属感，以至于当他们与他人交往时，他们的想法和感觉与独自一人时完全不同。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Not necessarily even extroverted for that to be true.

甚至不一定是外向的。

But that when they're suddenly alone, the internal state is very different, almost like it's two different lives.

但当他们突然独处时，内心状态就会大不相同，几乎就像是两种不同的生活。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There's a reason why I'm asking this, but I'm wondering about the role of state dependence in how we think and how we feel and how we think about the things around us and think about ourselves.

我问这个问题是有原因的，但我想知道国家依赖在我们如何思考、如何感受、如何思考周围的事物和思考我们自己方面所扮演的角色。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

For most of us, life is moving very fast, and life has a lot of stressors in it.

对于我们大多数人来说，生活节奏很快，生活中有很多压力。

And what ends up happening is we're kind of rushing just to keep up with ourselves.

最终发生的事情是，我们只是为了跟上自己的脚步而匆忙。

And when that happens, we become very state dependent as opposed to being able to observe ourselves.

当这种情况发生时，我们就会变得非常依赖国家，而不是能够观察自己。

So to be able to see, okay, I'm here and this is what I'm doing, and this is the people I'm with and how I'm feeling and how I'm behaving.

所以要能够看到，好吧，我在这里，这就是我正在做的事情，这就是和我在一起的人，以及我的感受和行为方式。

To be able to observe ourselves is how we knit together one self across situations.

能够观察自己是我们如何在各种情况下将自我编织在一起的方式。

So we can be aware, I'm different in one situation than another, right?

所以我们可以意识到，我在一种情况下与另一种情况下是不同的，对吗？

So some of the behavior then and the sense of self is state dependent, but there's a whole self that's riding above all of it, that's observing us and knitting us together, what sometimes gets called an observing ego, and this is how we can both be state dependent but also have a self that is true across all of those states.

因此，有些行为和自我意识是依赖于状态的，但有一个完整的自我凌驾于一切之上，它观察我们并将我们编织在一起，有时被称为观察自我，这就是我们既可以依赖于状态，又可以拥有一个跨越所有这些状态的真实自我的方式。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Helix Sleep.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 Helix Sleep。

Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to your unique sleep needs.

Helix Sleep 生产根据您独特的睡眠需求定制的床垫和枕头。

Now, I've spoken many times before on this and on other podcasts about the fact that getting a great night's sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance.

现在，我之前曾多次在这个播客和其他播客上谈到这样一个事实：睡个好觉是心理健康、身体健康和表现的基础。

When we aren't getting great sleep on a consistent basis, everything suffers.

当我们不能持续获得良好的睡眠时，一切都会受到影响。

And when we are sleeping well and enough, our mental health, physical health, and performance in all endeavors improve markedly.

当我们睡眠充足且良好时，我们的心理健康、身体健康和所有努力的表现都会显着改善。

Now, the mattress you sleep on makes a huge difference in the quality of sleep that you get each night.

现在，您所睡的床垫会对您每晚的睡眠质量产生巨大影响。

How soft it is or how firm it is all play into your comfort and need to be tailored to your unique sleep needs.

它的柔软度或硬度都会影响您的舒适度，并且需要根据您独特的睡眠需求进行定制。

If you go to the Helix website, you can take a brief two-minute quiz, and it will ask you questions such as, do you sleep on your back, your side, or your stomach?

如果你访问 Helix 网站，你可以做一个两分钟的简短测验，它会问你一些问题，比如你是仰卧、侧卧还是俯卧？

Maybe you know, maybe you don't.

也许你知道，也许你不知道。

Do you tend to run hot or cold during the night?

你晚上容易感到热还是冷？

Things of that sort.

诸如此类的事情。

You answer those questions, and Helix will match you to the ideal mattress for you.

您回答这些问题，Helix 将为您匹配理想的床垫。

For me, that turned out to be the Dusk, D-U-S-K, mattress.

对我来说，这就是 Dusk、D-U-S-K 床垫。

I've been sleeping on a Dusk mattress for more than four years now, and it's been far and away the best sleep that I've ever had.

我已经在 Dusk 床垫上睡了四年多了，这无疑是我睡过的最好的睡眠。

If you'd like to try Helix, you can go to helixsleep.com/huberman, take that two-minute sleep quiz, and Helix will match you to a mattress that's customized for you.

如果您想尝试 Helix，可以访问 helixsleep.com/huberman，参加两分钟的睡眠测验，Helix 将为您匹配专为您定制的床垫。

Right now, Helix is giving up to 27% off their entire site.

目前，Helix 整个网站提供高达 27% 的折扣。

Helix has also teamed up with TrueMed, which allows you to use your HSA, FSA dollars to shop Helix's award-winning mattresses.

Helix 还与 TrueMed 合作，允许您使用 HSA、FSA 美元购买 Helix 屡获殊荣的床垫。

Again, that's helixsleep.com/huberman to get up to 27% off.

再次强调，helixsleep.com/huberman 提供高达 27% 的折扣。

Today's episode is also brought to us by BetterHelp.

今天的节目也是由 BetterHelp 为我们带来的。

BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online.

BetterHelp 提供由持证治疗师完全在线进行的专业治疗。

Now, I've been doing therapy for a long time, and I can tell you that it's a lot like physical workouts.

现在，我已经做了很长时间的治疗，我可以告诉你，这很像体育锻炼。

There are times when I want to do it, and there are times when I don't want to do it.

有想做的时候，也有不想做的时候。

But whenever I finish a therapy session I come away feeling better, and I have specific actionable items that hadn't occurred to me that when I implement, improve various aspects of my life.

但每当我完成治疗课程时，我都会感觉好多了，并且我有一些我没有想到的具体可操作的项目，当我实施时，可以改善我生活的各个方面。

The data tell us that there are just so many benefits that come through effective therapy.

数据告诉我们，有效的治疗可以带来很多好处。

And effective therapy involves having a good rapport with your therapist, getting insights from them and with them, and coming away with specific actionable tools that you can apply outside of therapy.

有效的治疗包括与治疗师保持良好的关系，从他们那里获得见解并与他们一起获得见解，并得出可以在治疗之外应用的具体可行的工具。

With BetterHelp, they make it very easy to find an expert therapist who can help provide those benefits that come through effective therapy.

通过 BetterHelp，他们可以很容易地找到一位专家治疗师，他可以帮助提供通过有效治疗带来的好处。

They have a short questionnaire to help match you to a therapist.

他们有一份简短的调查问卷来帮助您与治疗师匹配。

And while BetterHelp has an industry-leading match rate, if you aren't happy with your match, you can switch to a different therapist at any time.

虽然 BetterHelp 拥有行业领先的匹配率，但如果您对匹配不满意，您可以随时更换为其他治疗师。

If you would like to try BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month.

如果您想尝试 BetterHelp，请访问 betterhelp.com/huberman，第一个月可享受 10% 的折扣。

Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman.

再说一次，这是 betterhelp.com/huberman。

When somebody sits down to think about their strengths or to think about their self-talk, or to just think about what they're made of and how they want to change or not change certain things, build on certain strengths, when and how should they do it?

当有人坐下来思考他们的优势或思考他们的自言自语，或者只是思考他们是由什么组成的以及他们想要如何改变或不改变某些事情，建立某些优势时，他们应该何时以及如何去做？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yeah.

是的。

I think all we need to bring is curiosity.

我认为我们需要带来的只是好奇心。

Right?

正确的？

That's all.

就这样。

And curiosity doesn't have to be overly serious or worried, right?

好奇心不必过于严肃或担心，对吧？

It doesn't have to have a gravity to it.

它不一定有重力。

It can, but it can also be very lighthearted.

可以，但也可以非常轻松。

There's so many things that we're curious about, so many things we want to learn about, and this is great.

有很多东西让我们好奇，有很多东西我们想了解，这很棒。

It's great for our brains, and it's great for our health to be curious and to want to learn.

好奇心和学习欲望对我们的大脑有好处，对我们的健康也有好处。

But so often, what we leave out of that equation is being curious about ourselves.

但很多时候，我们忽略了对自己的好奇心。

Right?

正确的？

And that can be a sort of high-spirited thing to do of, what is there in me that runs through all the things that I do?

这可能是一件充满激情的事情，我身上有什么贯穿我所做的所有事情？

How is it that I feel so different doing one thing than another?

为什么我在做一件事时感觉与另一件事如此不同？

What are the common threads of me that run throughout my life?

我一生中贯穿的共同点是什么？

This is a great way to approach what's going right in us, right?

这是了解我们内心正在发生的事情的好方法，对吧？

To be curious about ourselves.

对我们自己保持好奇心。

And it's from there that it's easier to see, wow, in one certain kind of situation, I'm really not doing as well, right?

从那里更容易看出，哇，在某种情况下，我真的做得不好，对吧？

Or I'm not as happy.

或者说我没有那么快乐。

Then we can think about that, and we don't have to be afraid of it.

那我们就可以想一想，就不用害怕了。

So bringing curiosity to ourselves, what runs through everything we do, and also how we're different in different situations, can help lead us to all sorts of answers about what makes us happy and what doesn't.

因此，对自己产生好奇心，了解我们所做的一切事情的本质，以及我们在不同情况下的不同之处，可以帮助我们找到各种答案，了解什么让我们快乐，什么不快乐。

When are we presenting a true and honest self?

我们什么时候才能展现出真实、诚实的自己？

When are we presenting a false self that even we know is false?

我们什么时候会表现出一个连我们自己都知道是虚假的虚假自我？

So I think the only crucial ingredient is curiosity, and then we can approach with seriousness and gravity, or we can approach with lightheartedness.

所以我认为唯一关键的因素是好奇心，然后我们可以严肃认真地对待，也可以轻松地对待。

We can be alone, or we can be thinking with someone else.

我们可以独自一人，也可以和别人一起思考。

There's all sorts of good places that curiosity can take us.

好奇心可以带我们去各种各样的好地方。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's interesting that you talked about true self versus false self.

有趣的是，你谈到了真实的自我与虚假的自我。

I think the more state dependence we have, the more confusing that becomes, right?

我认为我们对国家的依赖越多，事情就会变得越混乱，对吧？

And I think perhaps even more so in this day and age, there seems to be not a complete, but at least to me, a kind of partial erosion of etiquette.

我想也许在当今时代更是如此，似乎没有完全的，但至少对我来说，一种部分的礼仪侵蚀。

I'm not saying this to encourage people to be more rigid.

我这么说并不是为了鼓励人们变得更加严格。

It just seems to me that I'm 50 now.

在我看来，我现在已经50岁了。

When I was growing up, it seemed like people would dress and act one way in one context and dress and act one way in a different context, and there's some overlap, obviously.

在我成长的过程中，似乎人们在一种环境下会以一种方式穿着和行为，而在不同的环境下会以一种方式穿着和行为，显然存在一些重叠。

But now, there's this sort of propensity for not just oversharing, but there's information from all corners of the world coming through our devices all the time, and people are putting out information about many facets of their life all the time.

但现在，不仅存在过度分享的倾向，而且来自世界各个角落的信息一直通过我们的设备传输，人们一直在发布有关他们生活的许多方面的信息。

Even people I went to high school with who aren't public facing in the traditional sense are putting out pictures of their kids and what they ate and this, and the wins and the losses.

即使是那些和我一起上高中的人，他们在传统意义上不公开露面，也会晒出他们孩子的照片，他们吃了什么，还有这个，以及胜利和失败。

And it's a very odd thing to do when, in fact, we evolved for so long, just kind of experiencing ourself separate from all the other activities that we were doing and certainly that other people are doing.

这是一件非常奇怪的事情，事实上，我们进化了这么久，只是体验到我们自己与我们正在做的所有其他活动分开，当然还有其他人正在做的活动。

In your clinical practice, are you seeing more challenges with people creating separation between kind of aspects of self and aspects of life because of all the information coming at them, and maybe even that they're putting in the world?

在您的临床实践中，您是否看到人们面临更多挑战，因为人们收到了所有信息，甚至可能是他们向世界传递的信息，从而在自我的某些方面和生活的各个方面之间造成了分离？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

I think it can be different, depending upon what the person is doing, how they're using that information.

我认为情况可能会有所不同，具体取决于人们在做什么以及他们如何使用这些信息。

So if you think of falseness of self, it's possible a person can be engaged in something that even they themselves know isn't real, right?

因此，如果你想到自我的虚假，那么一个人可能会从事一些连他们自己都知道不真实的事情，对吧？

So wanting everyone to see what's best in my life, and to think that I'm doing really well.

所以希望每个人都能看到我生命中最好的东西，并认为我做得很好。

And maybe I'm doing that to hide something, or why am I doing that, right?

也许我这样做是为了隐藏某些事情，或者我为什么要这样做，对吧？

If I want to appear externally differently than how I am, there's a good place for curiosity about the falseness of that.

如果我想在外表上表现得与真实的自己有所不同，那么就有一个很好的地方让我好奇这种想法的虚假性。

What am I trying to protect against?

我想防止什么？

Why is it that I want people to see me in a certain way that might be different from how my life actually is?

为什么我希望人们以某种​​可能不同于我实际生活的方式看待我？

If it has not just all wins in it, right?

如果它不只是所有的胜利，对吧？

But stressors, too, that might not be as glamorous.

但压力因素也可能不那么迷人。

So, that's one way we can use those resources.

所以，这是我们使用这些资源的一种方式。

Another way can be to engage in ways that are more true to self.

另一种方法是采取更忠于自我的方式。

So someone who has an interest or a passion that it's hard to find people right around them, but they can find that more distantly.

因此，对于那些有兴趣或热情的人来说，很难在他们周围找到人，但他们可以在更远的地方找到他们。

Or people who have a lot of sensibility and compassion for some of the difficult things in the world, who can find kindred spirits through social media.

或者对世界上一些困难的事情有很多敏感性和同情心的人，他们可以通过社交媒体找到志趣相投的人。

So, I think we can use or misuse anything around us to either be-- We can use it to be closer to ourselves and to have a stronger sense of self, right?

所以，我认为我们可以利用或滥用我们周围的任何东西——我们可以利用它来更接近我们自己并拥有更强的自我意识，对吗？

Or we can use it to distract from who we really are and to maybe find solace somewhere else or find accolades somewhere outside of us because we're protecting against something.

或者我们可以用它来分散我们的注意力，也许可以在其他地方找到安慰，或者在我们之外的某个地方找到荣誉，因为我们正在防范某些事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Hmm.

嗯。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

So I think the important point is always to be honest with ourselves, and if we bring compassionate curiosity, then we're not mad at ourselves and that we're not coming at ourselves of, "What's wrong with me?" Or, "Why can't I do this thing better or that thing better?" Or, "Why don't people like me more?" Whatever it may be, right?

所以我认为重要的一点是始终对自己诚实，如果我们带着富有同情心的好奇心，那么我们就不会生自己的气，也不会问自己“我怎么了？”或者，“为什么我不能把这件事做得更好，那件事做得更好？”或者，“为什么人们不更喜欢我？”不管它是什么，对吧？

There are ways that we can We can guide ourselves away from honesty and truth.

我们可以通过一些方法引导自己远离诚实和真理。

And if we look at ourselves, we don't have to be afraid of what we find.

如果我们审视自己，我们就不必害怕我们所发现的东西。

Maybe if we're worried people aren't liking us, we're spending time with not a healthy group of people, right?

也许如果我们担心人们不喜欢我们，我们就花时间和一群不健康的人在一起，对吧？

Or maybe there's something in myself I need to change if I'm feeling that.

或者如果我有这种感觉，也许我自己身上有什么地方需要改变。

So the key is just bringing honesty and curiosity and not being so afraid or so negative towards ourselves that we're going to hide from what it is that we can find to knit us together.

所以关键是要诚实和好奇，不要对自己太害怕或太消极，以至于我们会隐藏我们可以找到的将我们联系在一起的东西。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, I'm not trying to demonize social media, but we are in a strange new version of humanity where, let's say somebody's sitting by themselves, chances are their experience is vastly different than it would have been 30 years ago because they are most likely getting a lot of information about what other people are doing.

是的，我并不是想妖魔化社交媒体，但我们正处于一个奇怪的人类新版本中，假设有人独自坐着，他们的经历很可能与 30 年前有很大不同，因为他们很可能获得了大量有关其他人在做什么的信息。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Could be good information, could be interesting, but nonetheless, it's a very different alone state and, or they are doing things that hopefully they enjoy, but there's this additional layer where it's put out into the world.

可能是很好的信息，可能很有趣，但尽管如此，这是一种非常不同的单独状态，或者他们正在做希望他们喜欢的事情，但还有一个额外的层将其发布到世界上。

This is very unusual.

这是非常不寻常的。

So the reason I'm asking about this in the context of addressing the self, exploring the self, is that I wonder to what extent being really happy with oneself at some level involves being able to be curious and explore different ways of being and ways of thinking without the impulse of sharing that and without the feedback comparison of what other people are doing.

因此，我在谈论自我、探索自我的背景下问这个问题的原因是，我想知道在某种程度上对自己真正感到满意在多大程度上涉及能够好奇并探索不同的存在方式和思维方式，而无需分享的冲动，也无需与其他人正在做的事情进行反馈比较。

Because the moment we see something else, there's more sensory input, or the moment that we think what we're doing needs to be shared, it changes the experience.

因为当我们看到其他东西时，就会有更多的感官输入，或者当我们认为我们正在做的事情需要分享时，它就会改变体验。

It's not truly-

这并不是真的——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

an alone experience.

一个人的经历。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I don't think it matters if you put it out to one follower or to a billion followers.

我认为，如果你把它发布给一个追随者或十亿个追随者，这并不重要。

It's still externalizing this thing that for thousands of years was just us with our thoughts, us with our emotions.

它仍然在外化这个东西，几千年来只有我们和我们的思想，我们和我们的情感。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And so processing time alone has become, I believe, a very, very different thing altogether.

因此，我相信，仅处理时间就已经完全变得非常非常不同了。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yeah, I think that's true.

是的，我认为这是真的。

I think there's a sweet spot of connectedness to others, right?

我认为与他人的联系是一个最佳点，对吗？

And we know that it's not good to have too little, right?

我们知道，拥有太少也不好，对吧？

That isolation isn't good for us.

这种孤立对我们来说没有好处。

But where the modern world has gone is it offers us too much the opposite, right?

但现代世界已经走向何方，它为我们提供了太多相反的东西，对吧？

Where there's not enough aloneness, where if we're over-connected, then in order to decide what it is we even like or prefer, how we feel about things, we're looking for external cues, right?

如果没有足够的孤独，如果我们联系过度，那么为了决定我们喜欢什么或更喜欢什么，我们对事物的感受如何，我们正在寻找外部线索，对吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

So that sweet spot of having some external check-ins, how does the world around me feel?

那么，进行一些外部检查的最佳时机，我周围的世界感觉如何？

How do people I like and trust feel?

我喜欢和信任的人感觉如何？

How do people who seem like me feel?

那些看起来像我的人感觉如何？

How do people who seem different from me feel?

那些看起来与我不同的人感觉如何？

It's good to have those tests outside, but to have enough aloneness that I am still thinking about myself and the questions, right, of life, the questions of my own life, I'm thinking about on my own before I'm pinging outside of me for information or validation or even guidance.

在外面进行这些测试很好，但要有足够的孤独感，让我仍然在思考自己和生活的问题，对的，生活的问题，我自己生活的问题，在我向外界寻求信息或验证甚至指导之前，我会自己思考。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm willing to bet that many people will find just the being alone introspective process to be pretty anxiety-provoking.

我敢打赌，很多人会发现独自进行内省的过程是相当令人焦虑的。

In fact, there's been a little bit of a semi-comedic exchange online recently because, actually our mutual friend, David Senra, and David Senra has a podcast with this very podcast production company.

事实上，最近网上有一些半喜剧的交流，因为实际上我们共同的朋友大卫·森拉（David Senra）和大卫·森拉（David Senra）与这家播客制作公司有一个播客。

He sat down with Marc Andreessen of founded Netscape, a16z Investments, and Marc made the statement that was very provocative, which was, "Great men of history didn't sit around thinking about their thoughts." And of course, knowing Marc, and he's a friend of mine, I think that was a bit tongue in cheek.

他与 Netscape、a16z Investments 创始人马克·安德森 (Marc Andreessen) 进行了座谈，马克发表了极具挑衅性的声明，即“历史上的伟人不会坐下来思考他们的想法”。当然，我认识马克，而且他是我的朋友，我认为这有点开玩笑。

I think he was pointing toward, I don't want to speak for him, but I think he was pointing toward the idea that too much thinking and not enough doing can be self-destructive.

我认为他的意思是，我不想代表他说话，但我认为他的意思是，思考太多而行动不足可能会造成自我毁灭。

Of course, the media ran with it, and in classic Andreessenian fashion, he just doubled down and tripled down on that message, which was fun for a while actually, because it got people thinking about the role of introspection versus the role of doing.

当然，媒体也跟着传播，以经典的安德烈森风格，他只是加倍、加倍地传达这个信息，这实际上很有趣，因为它让人们思考内省的作用与行动的作用。

And I have to say, I think what he contributed with those statements, however provocative, were useful in thinking like, how much thinking, how much doing when exploring the self?

我不得不说，我认为他对这些言论的贡献，无论多么具有挑衅性，对于思考是有用的，比如在探索自我时思考了多少，做了多少？

We don't want to spiral into a tunnel that we can't get out of, but we also want to make sure that we're putting things out into the world.

我们不想陷入无法摆脱的隧道，但我们也想确保我们将东西推向世界。

So when you have a patient that is not depressed, is maybe just struggling, right?

所以当你的病人并不抑郁时，可能只是在挣扎，对吗？

So no clinical issue that needs dealing with first.

因此没有需要首先处理的临床问题。

How much do you encourage them to explore the self through doing versus thinking about their thinking?

你在多大程度上鼓励他们通过行动探索自我，而不是通过思考自己的想法？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

It depends very much on who is that person, right?

这很大程度上取决于那个人是谁，对吗？

And what do they need to face to sort of break new ground of self?

他们需要面对什么才能开辟自我新天地？

And you mentioned that most people would find the idea of just being with themselves to be anxiety-provoking.

你提到大多数人会发现仅仅和自己在一起的想法会引起焦虑。

And I think that that's unfortunate.

我认为这很不幸。

I think that comes from a lack of leadership in the mental health field, and then the stigma of mental health and our fears, those black box fears that we don't understand.

我认为这是由于心理健康领域缺乏领导力，然后是心理健康的耻辱和我们的恐惧，那些我们不理解的黑匣子恐惧。

So we're afraid of what we don't understand.

所以我们害怕我们不理解的东西。

What we don't understand is ourselves.

我们不了解的是我们自己。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

So then the idea of being with ourselves becomes very anxiety-provoking, and I think that's not good.

因此，与自己相处的想法就会变得非常令人焦虑，我认为这不好。

I think there are ways that we can go about being with ourselves that we don't have to be afraid of and say, "If I do that, it's interesting what I'm going to find, right?

我认为有一些方法可以让我们与自己相处，而不必害怕并说：“如果我这样做，我会发现很有趣的东西，对吧？

And the reflection and the thoughts and the ideas, the learning that comes from it is going to guide me towards the best balance for me, right?" So there are some people who are very assertive, right?

反思、想法、想法以及从中学到的知识将引导我走向最适合我的平衡，对吗？”所以有些人是非常有主见的，对吗？

And they want to have high levels of doing in the world, but they still need some reflection, right?

他们希望在世界上取得高水平的成就，但他们仍然需要一些反思，对吧？

There are other people who are going to be very reflective, and they're going to be doing less.

还有一些人会非常反思，但他们会做得更少。

We need to understand what profile works for one person.

我们需要了解什么样的个人资料适合一个人。

It's not one exact place, but we kind of have a profile of reflection and of doing.

这不是一个确切的地方，但我们有一种反思和行动的轮廓。

And if we are well-balanced, where we're asserting ourselves in the world at levels that work for us, and we're finding pleasure and gratification in ways that are healthy, now we're finding balance.

如果我们是平衡的，我们在世界上以适合我们的水平维护自己，并且我们以健康的方式找到快乐和满足，那么我们现在就找到了平衡。

If there's too much doing and not enough reflection, not a lot of good will come from that, right?

如果做太多而反思不够，就不会产生很多好处，对吗？

We'll find that there's diminishing returns.

我们会发现收益递减。

We feel unsatisfied, right?

我们感到不满意，对吗？

Because we're doing too much, and we're maybe taking less pleasure in what we're doing.

因为我们做的太多了，而我们可能对我们正在做的事情感到不那么高兴。

But if we're doing too little, then we can feel idle, and there can be a sense of learned helplessness.

但如果我们做得太少，那么我们就会感到无所事事，并且可能会有一种习得性无助感。

So it's finding what is the optimal range for a person to be asserting themselves in the world and then finding gratification in what they're doing.

因此，它是找到一个人在世界上主张自己的最佳范围，然后从他们所做的事情中找到满足感。

And if that's going well, we'll see it.

如果进展顺利，我们会看到的。

There's a happy, balanced person.

有一个快乐、平衡的人。

And if not, we'll be able to figure it out of what is going on in that person.

如果没有，我们就能从那个人身上发生的事情中找出答案。

Is there an issue somewhere, say, in the unconscious mind, right?

是不是某个地方出了问题，比如说，潜意识里，对吗？

Are they asserting more and too much and reflecting too little, right?

他们是否断言太多、反思太少，对吧？

So by looking at the person and going through these steps, we can figure out what serves that person best, and how might they adjust from where they are now to get there.

因此，通过观察这个人并完成这些步骤，我们可以弄清楚什么最适合这个人，以及他们如何从现在的状态进行调整以达到目标。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is it true that there are just some people who just don't really think about their thinking very much?

难道真的有那么一些人并没有真正思考过自己的想法吗？

They just do stuff.

他们只是做事。

I've had friends say that.

我曾经有朋友这么说过。

I don't want to speak for me, I'll speak for them.

我不想为我说话，我会为他们说话。

They'll say that they don't think about their thinking.

他们会说他们没有考虑自己的想法。

They just get up in the morning, and they brush their teeth, and they use the bathroom, and they go about their day, and they're not very introspective.

他们早上起床，刷牙，上厕所，过着自己的一天，但他们不太内省。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They're not called to think about their thinking.

他们没有被要求去思考他们的想法。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And in some cases, these are people who are extremely busy, so maybe that's one reason.

在某些情况下，这些人非常忙碌，所以也许这就是原因之一。

But in some cases, there are people who just, for whatever reason, the mirror doesn't pop up in their cortex.

但在某些情况下，有些人，无论出于何种原因，镜子并没有在他们的皮质中弹出。

They're busy doing and observing-

他们正忙着做和观察——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and they seem functional.

而且它们看起来很实用。

Are they missing out on something fundamental, or is that maybe even the goal?

他们是否错过了一些基本的东西，或者这甚至可能是目标？

I ask this from a very selfish perspective, because growing up, I thought, how cool would that be to just go through life, just do stuff, not think about stuff-

我从一个非常自私的角度问这个问题，因为在成长过程中，我想，如果能过着自己的生活，只做事，不去想该有多酷——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

from the past too much, not reflect too much, just get stuff done.

过去太多，没有反思太多，只是把事情做好。

And I'm a get-it-done kind of person, but I think like most people, I also am forced to think about my thinking from time to time.

我是一个事必躬亲的人，但我认为像大多数人一样，我也被迫时不时地思考自己的想法。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

When you say forced, what then forces you?

当你说强迫时，什么强迫你？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, sorry.

哦，抱歉。

It just spontaneously happens.

它只是自发地发生。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I reflect.

我反思。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And the reflections usually-- I'll try and generalize these because this is not about me.

通常，我会尝试概括这些反思，因为这与我无关。

The reflections generally come from, is that something I should explore?

反思通常来自于，这是我应该探索的东西吗？

Is that a problem?

这是一个问题吗？

Is the way I'm thinking about or doing that a problem, or is the way that they're thinking about and doing something a problem?

是我思考或做事的方式有问题，还是他们思考和做事的方式有问题？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This us-them thing is what it boils down to.

归根结底就是我们与他们的关系。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And it's either positive or negative.

它要么是积极的，要么是消极的。

I confess I don't really sit around a lot and think about all the things going right.

我承认我并没有经常坐着思考所有事情是否顺利。

I should.

我应该。

I have a gratitude practice.

我有一个感恩的练习。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I generally don't sit around and think like, oh, the walls are up and the ceiling's intact-

我通常不会坐在那里思考，哦，墙壁已经升起来，天花板也完好无损——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and I'm fed and I'm healthy.

我吃饱了而且很健康。

Of course, until something bad happens, and then we do our inventory, right?

当然，在发生不好的事情之前，我们都会做库存，对吗？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But yeah, I just wonder whether or not there's a spectrum of reflexive self-exploration.

但是，是的，我只是想知道是否存在一系列反射性的自我探索。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

People have different reflective capacity, and people have different reflective interests.

人们有不同的反思能力，人们有不同的反思兴趣。

So there are people who have more, and that could serve them well to be more self-aware.

所以有些人拥有更多，这可以很好地帮助他们提高自我意识。

But also, people may have less reflective capacity but be more naturally generative, and then they're just moving forward.

而且，人们的反思能力可能较低，但具有更自然的生成能力，然后他们就会继续前进。

So the question is, even though we have different natural levels of reflective inclination, are we happy?

所以问题是，尽管我们的反思倾向自然水平不同，但我们快乐吗？

Are our lives going well?

我们的生活还好吗？

If life is going well and that person is healthy, they have good mental health and secure relationships, and life is going well, and they're not reflecting very much, that sounds good.

如果生活进展顺利，那个人很健康，他们有良好的心理健康和安全的人际关系，而且生活进展顺利，而且他们没有太多反思，这听起来不错。

How I would characterize that is they're living through the generative drive.

我的描述是，他们是靠生成驱动力生活的。

They're being productive, contributory people in the world.

他们是世界上富有成效、有贡献的人。

They're making the world better.

他们正在让世界变得更美好。

They're learning.

他们正在学习。

They're growing, so they're making themselves better, and they're just moving forward.

他们在成长，所以他们在让自己变得更好，他们只是在前进。

That's a great way to be.

这是一个很好的方式。

For most of us, in order to get there, we do have to be reflective.

对于我们大多数人来说，为了实现这一目标，我们必须进行反思。

And some of what will happen is it will come to us.

有些事情将会发生，它会降临到我们身上。

You said you're not planning maybe to sit down and be reflective, but then it comes to you, hey, I should think of this possibility at hand, and what are other people thinking, and how is that impacting what I'm thinking?

你说你可能不打算坐下来反思，但后来你想到，嘿，我应该考虑一下这种可能性，其他人在想什么，这对我的想法有何影响？

So you become reflective because your brain is leading you there.

所以你变得反思，因为你的大脑正在引导你去那里。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Because it's saying, hey, we do need to stop and think about things.

因为它说，嘿，我们确实需要停下来思考一些事情。

That's how we're going to make better decisions.

这就是我们如何做出更好的决定。

So our brains will lead us to reflection.

所以我们的大脑会引导我们进行反思。

But if we're moving so fast or we're defended against it, then we're not reflective, and that's not good for us.

但如果我们行动得太快或者我们受到防御，那么我们就不会反思，这对我们不利。

And that's how you could see, for example, someone who's always busy, so they don't have time to reflect.

例如，这就是你看到的人总是很忙，所以他们没有时间反思。

But the big question is, is that person happy?

但最大的问题是，那个人幸福吗？

If that person is not happy and they're complaining and they feel like they're working and never getting anything out of it or never getting any reward, then it's not good that they're not reflective.

如果那个人不快乐，他们在抱怨，他们觉得自己在工作却从未从中得到任何东西或从未得到任何奖励，那么他们不反思是不好的。

They're blocking themselves from something that they need.

他们阻碍了自己获得他们需要的东西。

There are spectrums that apply differently to different people, and we all reside on different parts of the spectrum, whether it's reflective capacity or it's assertion or it's pleasure.

有些光谱对不同的人有不同的应用，我们都位于光谱的不同部分，无论是反思能力、主张还是快乐。

But in terms of what we're doing and whether it's healthy for us, it's different.

但就我们正在做的事情以及它是否对我们健康而言，情况有所不同。

We're each and all unique, so we have to stop and look at ourselves like, hey, how is this going for me?

我们每个人都是独一无二的，所以我们必须停下来看看自己，嘿，这对我来说怎么样？

How am I functioning, and is it working for me?

我的运作方式如何，它对我有用吗？

Am I pausing and thinking enough?

我停下来思考得足够多吗？

Maybe the answer is yes.

也许答案是肯定的。

Maybe the answer is no. Maybe I'm not sure.

也许答案是否定的。也许我不确定。

But if I'm not happy, let me go back and revisit that question.

但如果我不高兴，让我回去重新考虑这个问题。

So this curiosity of self can lead us to, oh, how am I built to function?

因此，这种自我好奇心可以引导我们思考，哦，我是如何发挥作用的？

Am I functioning in a way that really works for me?

我的工作方式是否真正适合我？

If not, why not?

如果没有，为什么不呢？

What change might I bring?

我能带来什么改变？

And here again, we're using the ability to understand and to go through a process to make our lives better.

在这里，我们再次利用理解和经历一个过程的能力来让我们的生活变得更好。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I realize these aren't clinical terms, but someone recently said about themselves that they are an external processor.

我意识到这些不是临床术语，但最近有人说他们自己是一个外部处理器。

They need to talk things through in order to understand what's going on for them and make decisions.

他们需要通过讨论来了解自己的情况并做出决定。

And that implies that some people are internal processors.

这意味着有些人是内部处理器。

Is that true?

这是真的吗？

Do you see that in your practice, that some people do best by thinking, sitting and thinking, walking and thinking, driving and thinking, and working things through, and other people actually work it out by talking either to you or to their friends or family-

在你的实践中，你是否发现有些人通过思考、坐着思考、行走思考、开车思考以及解决问题来做得最好，而其他人实际上通过与你或他们的朋友或家人交谈来解决问题——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

some trusted person.

一些值得信赖的人。

Are those two probably not completely separate, but at least semi-separate bins of people?

这两个人可能不是完全分开的，但至少是半分开的人吗？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

I don't know that they're separate bins of people.

我不知道他们是不同的人。

I think that the ability to think and to be objective in our thinking differs among people.

我认为思考的能力和客观思考的能力因人而异。

What happens often is we get stuck in our own minds, so then we're thinking, but we're not thinking productively.

经常发生的情况是，我们被自己的想法困住了，所以我们在思考，但我们的思考并不富有成效。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Because we get stuck in our own loops.

因为我们陷入了自己的循环之中。

And when we take the thought process outside of us, so if we write the words down or if we say the words, and we say the words to another person, then we're bringing different brain processes online, different error-checking processes online.

当我们将思维过程置于外部时，如果我们写下这些话，或者我们说这些话，然后对另一个人说这些话，那么我们就会将不同的大脑过程、不同的错误检查过程带到网上。

So some of us can do more of this inside and say, "Hey, I've been thinking about this for a while and nothing's different, or nothing's going better.

所以我们中的一些人可以在内心做更多的事情，然后说：“嘿，我已经考虑这个问题有一段时间了，没有什么不同，或者没有什么会变得更好。

Is there a different way?

有不同的方法吗？

Is there a way I could think about it that's new or that's different?" Sometimes we can do that, but a lot of times we just get stuck inside of ourselves and we have to bring different brain processes online, like making words and putting those words out there in writing or in speech is different.

我可以用一种新的或不同的方式来思考它吗？”有时我们可以做到这一点，但很多时候我们只是陷入了自己的内心，我们必须将不同的大脑过程带到网上，比如创造单词并将这些单词以书面形式或口头形式表达出来是不同的。

It holds the brain more accountable.

它让大脑更加负责。

That's why sometimes we'll just say something out loud or we'll say something to someone else and say, "Oh, I figured that out," or, "Thanks for helping me figure it out." And you might realize all you did was listen, right?

这就是为什么有时我们会大声说出来，或者对别人说一些话，然后说：“哦，我明白了，”或者，“谢谢你帮我弄清楚了。”你可能会意识到你所做的只是倾听，对吧？

Because just by being there, the other person is forming words.

因为只要在场，对方就可以形成言语。

We do more due diligence inside of ourselves that way.

通过这种方式，我们对自己进行了更多的尽职调查。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I must confess, I'm fascinated by this notion of people differing in their tendency to work things out internally and then bring that forward into the world.

我必须承认，我对人们在内部解决问题然后将其推向世界的不同倾向的这种观念很着迷。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Maybe for more help or some additional solutions.

也许需要更多帮助或一些额外的解决方案。

Or maybe just they've figured it out, so they're bringing a version of self into the world that is vetted by them.

或者也许只是他们已经弄清楚了，所以他们正在将一个经过他们审查的自我版本带入这个世界。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I notice I tend to respect that picture-

我注意到我倾向于尊重那张照片-

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

but I realize that's not necessarily the way it always works.

但我意识到这并不一定总是如此。

I had a conversation with my sister this morning, and I love my sister.

今天早上我和我姐姐聊过，我爱我姐姐。

We're quite close.

我们很接近。

And there was no friction, but the direction she was taking what we were talking about and the direction I was taking it, they weren't aligned.

没有摩擦，但她采取我们正在谈论的方向和我采取的方向，它们并不一致。

And so we did a little bit of our brother-sister pushback.

所以我们做了一点我们的兄弟姐妹的抵制。

And then at some point, we both realized that we weren't aligned with the other person.

然后在某个时刻，我们都意识到我们与对方不一致。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And we kind of arrived at this overlap in the Venn diagram, and that's when it was like, okay, there was some real clarity that came to something important.

我们在维恩图中找到了这种重叠，就在那时，好吧，重要的事情有了一些真正的清晰度。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I thought, how cool is that, right?

我想，这多酷啊，对吧？

She has her way of doing things.

她有她的做事方式。

I have my way of doing things.

我有我的做事方式。

I don't think I could've gotten there without that conversation.

我想如果没有那次谈话我就不可能到达那里。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And yet, for the two-thirds-- Sorry, I won't say her name for her own privacy, but for two-thirds of the conversation, I'm thinking to myself, like, "Oh, God, this is an already difficult thing, made more difficult by the fact that there's this other picture of it and a version of it that she's extra..." But then, boom, you hit this convergence.

然而，对于三分之二的人来说——抱歉，为了保护她的隐私，我不会说出她的名字，但是对于三分之二的谈话，我在心里想，“哦，上帝，这本来就很困难的事情，因为还有这张照片的另一张照片和她额外的一个版本，这让事情变得更加困难……”但是，然后，繁荣，你就达到了这个融合。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And that's real synergy, right?

这才是真正的协同效应，对吧？

I certainly couldn't have come up with that on my own.

我自己当然不可能想出这个办法。

So while I say I place value on the internal processor, I know with certainty I could not have gotten there if I hadn't actually felt and met the friction of what she was bringing forward.

因此，虽然我说我重视内部处理器，但我确信如果我没有真正感受到并遇到她所提出的内容的摩擦，我就不可能到达那里。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And her willingness to bend a bit, and my willingness to accept a bit.

她愿意屈服一点，我愿意接受一点。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right, because you were doing something together, right?

对吧，因为你们一起做某事，对吧？

You were doing something together that involved real and open communication.

你们一起做一些涉及真实和开放沟通的事情。

So you had to be able to say, "Hey, this is how I think and feel," and put that out there and test it and bounce it off the other person and take inside what the other person thinks and said.

所以你必须能够说，“嘿，这就是我的想法和感受”，然后把它放在那里进行测试，然后从其他人那里得到反馈，并了解其他人的想法和言论。

There's a really complicated process there, which is how human beings come to understand one another or come to agree or come to a place where there's a way forward, even if there isn't complete agreement, right?

这是一个非常复杂的过程，这就是人类如何相互理解或达成一致或到达有前进方向的地方，即使没有完全一致，对吗？

We have to do these things outside of us.

我们必须在我们之外做这些事情。

Most often, if we're going to be at our healthiest, we do want to be able to do some of it inside, right?

大多数情况下，如果我们想要保持最健康，我们确实希望能够在室内做一些事情，对吗？

It's a good place to start, and we can do that alone with ourselves.

这是一个很好的起点，我们可以自己完成。

And we're talking about reflective capacity and inclination.

我们谈论的是反思能力和倾向。

But none of us knows how to do something we haven't been taught to do, right?

但我们谁都不知道如何做一些我们没有被教导过的事情，对吗？

So very often, we haven't had a way of going inside, of saying, "Well, I'm going to think about myself, and I want to do that productively." And part of what I'm trying to bring to the fore is that there are ways of going about being with yourself, thinking about yourself, thinking within yourself, that can lead us towards progress at least, and sometimes answers.

很多时候，我们没有办法深入内心，说：“好吧，我要考虑一下自己，我想有效地做到这一点。”我想要强调的是，有一些方法可以让我们与自己相处，思考自己，思考自己的内心，这至少可以引导我们取得进步，有时甚至可以找到答案。

And if we're doing that, we can probably all do more of that than we're doing, and if we're given a way to do it where we think, "Okay, this works for me.

如果我们这样做，我们可能可以做得比我们现在做的更多，并且如果我们有一种方法可以让我们认为“好吧，这对我有用。

I'm actually learning about myself while I'm doing this, and I'm bringing a vetted self.

当我这样做时，我实际上正在了解自己，并且我正在带来一个经过审查的自我。

I'm bringing my best self to what I'm going to find outside of me." And that may be collaboration with another person, right?

我正在尽我最大的努力去寻找我之外的东西。”这可能是与另一个人的合作，对吧？

It may be talking with another person and coming to some middle ground when there isn't agreement.

它可能是在与另一个人交谈，并在没有达成一致的情况下达成某种中间立场。

So if we start with ourselves and we're able to reflect and to bring self-understanding to the fore, we're much, much stronger, right?

因此，如果我们从自己开始，能够反思并突出自我理解，我们就会变得更加强大，对吧？

In a good way.

以一种好的方式。

Not stronger in that we're going to force our way through things, but we're much stronger in terms of both self-knowledge and ability to be flexible when we're out in the real world meeting other people.

并不是因为我们要强行解决问题，而是因为我们在现实世界中与其他人会面时的自我认识和灵活性方面都更强。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, I think to me, the picture of internal processing people is one that, and maybe I've seen too many movies and shows from my childhood, but the picture is one of, okay, people who internally process bring the best version of themselves forward.

是的，我认为对我来说，内部处理的人的画面是这样的，也许我从小就看过太多的电影和节目，但是这张照片是这样的，好吧，内部处理的人会展现出最好的自己。

They don't burden other people.

他们不会给其他人带来负担。

But I think by now we understand as a culture that that person, while traditionally was kind of revered, this is a male-centric phenotype here, picture that I'm drawing, although it could be about a woman as well.

但我认为现在我们理解为一种文化，即那个人虽然传统上受到尊重，但这是一种以男性为中心的表型，我正在画的图画，尽管它也可能是关于女性的。

There's also this idea that they're a little bit disconnected from all the chatter.

还有一种观点认为，他们与所有的闲聊有点脱节。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But in my mind, I have this belief, like if people are externally processing a lot, that they're also revealing their uncertainty and that that's not a good thing to reveal to the world.

但在我看来，我有这样的信念，就像人们在外部进行大量处理一样，他们也会暴露自己的不确定性，而向世界透露这并不是一件好事。

And again, this probably reflects my age and the times when I was raised and a bit about the culture and my family, et cetera.

再说一次，这可能反映了我的年龄和我长大的时代，以及一些关于文化和我的家庭等等。

But I think in general, we never really talk about strong, silent type, but lazy, right?

但我认为总的来说，我们从来没有真正谈论过坚强、沉默的类型，而是懒惰，对吗？

We're thinking strong, silent, and therefore getting stuff done.

我们思维坚定、沉默，从而把事情做好。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right?

对吗？

The tacit message there is strong and silent, so they're not burdening other people with their internal stuff.

那里的默认信息是强烈而无声的，所以他们不会因为自己的内心想法而给其他人带来负担。

We also assume that people who process internally are actually processing, that they're not just sitting there.

我们还假设内部处理的人实际上正在处理，他们不仅仅是坐在那里。

I used to joke, what's my bulldog Costello thinking about?

我曾经开玩笑说，我的斗牛犬科斯特洛在想什么？

And I know this isn't true, but I used to think it was white noise.

我知道这不是真的，但我曾经认为这是白噪音。

Maybe he was just sitting there white noising-

也许他只是坐在那里发出白噪音——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

experiencing the world as white noise.

将世界体验为白噪音。

I don't know what he was thinking about.

我不知道他在想什么。

So it's sort of-

所以这有点-

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Could've been quantum physics.

可能是量子物理学。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Could've been quantum physics.

可能是量子物理学。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I doubt that, but it could've been quant-- And if it was-

我对此表示怀疑，但它可能是定量的——如果是的话——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

He was good at keeping a secret.

他很善于保守秘密。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Exactly.

正是如此。

Right.

正确的。

Yeah.

是的。

And the picture actually works because he was a big, kind of stoic dog.

这张照片确实有效，因为它是一只大而坚忍的狗。

He had his joyful expression, but there's something about this notion of somebody that processes internally that gets a lot done and maybe even serves others, although more than somebody who's processing externally.

他的表情很愉快，但这种内部处理的人可以完成很多工作，甚至可能为他人服务，尽管比外部处理的人做得更多。

And it's hard to probe this area without setting up natural gender stereotypes here.

如果不在这里建立自然的性别刻板印象，就很难探索这个领域。

I think the stereotype is that women externally process more than men.

我认为人们的刻板印象是女性比男性处理更多的外部信息。

I don't know that that's actually true.

我不知道这是否属实。

It just might be that men process less overall.

可能只是男性的整体处理能力较低。

Who knows?

谁知道？

Who the hell knows what anyone else is thinking?

谁他妈知道别人在想什么？

Half the time, I don't know what I'm thinking.

半天，我都不知道自己在想什么。

So do you think that people who hold it in more are coming to a greater understanding and get more done in the world than those that externally process?

那么，您是否认为，与那些外在处理的人相比，更多地持有它的人会在世界上获得更多的理解并取得更多的成就？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

No, I think not necessarily.

不，我认为不一定。

I think what's best for us is a balance.

我认为对我们来说最好的是平衡。

And again, it's going to be different for each person, but there has to be a balance of things that I know and understand inside of myself that aren't up for question, that I am sure of and resolved about.

再说一遍，每个人的情况都会有所不同，但我内心所知道和理解的事情必须保持平衡，这些事情是不容置疑的，我确信并解决了。

So it might be a line not to cross because it's a certain moral boundary.

所以这可能是一条不能跨越的线，因为它是一定的道德界限。

I know how I feel about it, and I know where I am.

我知道我的感受，我知道我在哪里。

I know how I feel, and I know where I stand.

我知道自己的感受，也知道自己的立场。

So it's just one example.

所以这只是一个例子。

There are issues of self that we want to feel very resolved.

有些自我问题我们希望得到很好的解决。

How I want to treat people in the world and how I want to be treated, for example.

例如，我想如何对待世界上的人以及我希望别人如何对待我。

It's good to know those things inside of us, but it is good to then test externally about how we're interfacing with the world.

了解我们内心的这些事情固然很好，但随后从外部测试我们如何与世界互动也更好。

If too much internal processing can be too self-referential, and now I may think that how I think it should be is actually how it should be because I haven't tested outside of me, and I haven't done enough of that testing to see, oh, a lot of other people feel differently than me.

如果太多的内部处理可能过于自我参照，那么现在我可能会认为我认为它应该如何实际上就是它应该如何，因为我没有在我之外进行测试，而且我没有做足够的测试来看到，哦，很多其他人的感觉与我不同。

And this isn't a moral point where I feel sure about how I feel.

这不是一个道德问题，我不能确定自己的感受。

There's actually more gray in it than I might have thought, as an example.

举个例子，其中的灰色实际上比我想象的要多。

So there has to be a balance.

所以必须有一个平衡。

It's always been this way for humans, a balance of what we discern and know inside, but bringing that vetted self to the world means that the vetted self also knows that it doesn't know everything, right?

对于人类来说，一直都是这样，我们内心所洞察和了解的平衡，但将经过审查的自我带到世界意味着经过审查的自我也知道它并不知道一切，对吧？

And it's testing in the outside world to learn what is it that other people are thinking.

它正在外部世界进行测试，以了解其他人在想什么。

Can I learn from that?

我可以从中学习吗？

So bringing an openness is also very important about a lot of things.

因此，在很多事情上保持开放性也非常重要。

So I think that no one way of being is better.

所以我认为没有一种存在方式是更好的。

I think we all need a balance.

我认为我们都需要平衡。

That balance is going to differ, and it involves knowing things about ourselves and feeling resolute, and also having the humility to face the world with openness and realizing there's a lot of things I may think I know, or think I know exactly how something is or how something should be, but let me hold on for a second and check that with the outside world so that I don't become too self-referential, where we can become bigoted or prejudiced.

这种平衡将会有所不同，它涉及了解我们自己并感到坚定，同时也需要谦虚地以开放的态度面对世界，并意识到有很多事情我可能认为我知道，或者认为我确切地知道某件事是怎样的或应该怎样，但让我等一下并与外界核实这一点，这样我就不会变得过于自我参照，这样我们就会变得偏执或偏见。

Those can be outcomes, or we can just step a little bit into ignorance that there's more in the world than our own opinions.

这些可能是结果，或者我们可能会有点无知，因为世界上除了我们自己的观点之外还有更多的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 for nearly 15 years now.

你们很多人都知道，我服用 AG1 已有近 15 年了。

I discovered it way back in 2012, long before I had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since.

我早在 2012 年就发现了它，那时我还没有播客，从那时起我就每天都在听它。

AG1 is, to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market.

据我所知，AG1 是市场上质量最高、最全面的基础营养补充剂。

It combines vitamins, minerals, prebiotics, probiotics, and adaptogens into a single scoop that's easy to drink and tastes great.

它将维生素、矿物质、益生元、益生菌和适应原结合到一勺中，易于饮用且味道极佳。

It's designed to support things like gut health, immune health, and overall energy, and it does so by helping to fill any gaps that you might have in your daily nutrition.

它旨在支持肠道健康、免疫健康和整体能量等，并通过帮助填补您日常营养中可能存在的任何缺口来实现这一目标。

And of course, we should all eat high-quality whole foods, but most of us are probably not getting enough prebiotics, vitamins, and minerals, and AG1 ensures that those gaps are filled.

当然，我们都应该吃高质量的天然食品，但我们大多数人可能没有摄入足够的益生元、维生素和矿物质，而 AG1 可确保填补这些空白。

I get asked all the time by people, if they were to take just one supplement, what would my recommendation for that supplement be?

人们总是问我，如果他们只服用一种补充剂，我对该补充剂的建议是什么？

And my answer is always AG1, because it's just been so critical for supporting all aspects of my physical health, mental health, and performance by covering those nutritional, what we call foundational bases.

我的答案始终是 AG1，因为它通过涵盖这些营养（我们称之为基础），对于支持我的身体健康、心理健康和表现的各个方面非常重要。

And I know from my own experience and from everyone I've heard that I recommended it to, that they simply feel much better in a number of different ways when they take it regularly.

从我自己的经验以及我听说过我推荐的每个人那里我知道，当他们定期服用它时，他们在许多不同的方面都会感觉好多了。

If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a special offer.

如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 以获得特别优惠。

For a limited time, AG1 is giving away a week's supply of AGZ, which is their sleep supplement, and a free bottle of vitamin D3+K2 with your subscription.

在有限的时间内，AG1 将赠送一周的 AGZ（这是他们的睡眠补充剂），以及一瓶免费的维生素 D3+K2。

AGZ is something that I helped design.

AGZ是我帮忙设计的。

It tastes great, and it's the only sleep supplement I take.

味道很好，也是我唯一服用的睡眠补充剂。

It has a collection of different things in it that has dramatically improved my sleep, both my slow-wave deep sleep and my rapid eye movement sleep, and I absolutely love it.

它里面有一系列不同的东西，极大地改善了我的睡眠，包括我的慢波深度睡眠和快速眼动睡眠，我非常喜欢它。

Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman to get a week's supply of AGZ and a bottle of D3+K2 with your subscription.

再次强调，通过 Drinkag1.com/huberman 订阅即可获得一周的 AGZ 和一瓶 D3+K2。

Veering towards some questions about physiology and how it relates to all this, but I want to just peel back one more layer on this admittedly extreme example of-- I don't want to use strong, silent.

转向一些关于生理学的问题以及它与所有这一切的关系，但我想在这个公认的极端例子上再剥开一层——我不想使用“坚强”、“沉默”。

I want it to be internal processor, external processors.

我希望它是内部处理器、外部处理器。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And actually, right now, I'll try and disintegrate the strong, silent type because people immediately default to male, and I'm not doing that for political correctness, but I think about my graduate advisor, Barbara Chapman Incredibly smart person.

事实上，现在，我会尝试瓦解坚强、沉默的类型，因为人们立即默认为男性，我这样做并不是为了政治正确，但我想到我的研究生导师芭芭拉·查普曼（Barbara Chapman）是一个非常聪明的人。

And our chair of department years ago, my chair of department years ago described her perfectly when he said, "She's quiet, but not shy."

几年前我们的系主任，我的系主任几年前完美地描述了她，他说：“她很安静，但并不害羞。”

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Uh-huh.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So she could sit and be in a room and observe and pay attention.

这样她就可以坐在房间里观察并集中注意力。

When she spoke, you really did get the sense that it counted, high signal to noise-

当她说话时，你确实感觉到它很重要，高信噪比——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

because she wasn't one to chatter much.

因为她不是一个爱喋喋不休的人。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There does seem to be this assumption that if people are talking a lot, that there's a lot going on in there all the time, and some of it's just getting out, and that if people are quiet, that it's either more regulated or there's not a whole lot going on in there.

似乎确实存在这样的假设：如果人们谈论得很多，那么那里一直在发生很多事情，其中一些刚刚出去，而如果人们安静，那么要么受到更多监管，要么那里没有发生太多事情。

Right?

正确的？

And I think my chairman's mention about my graduate advisor really woke me up.

我认为我的主席提到我的研究生导师确实让我警醒了。

I thought, "You're right.

我想：“你是对的。

She's really quiet, but she's not shy.

她确实很安静，但并不害羞。

She's not afraid to speak.

她并不害怕说话。

She's very organized and deliberate in what she says."

她说话很有条理、深思熟虑。”

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I can't say it was always of value.

我不能说它总是有价值的。

Forgive me, Barbara.

原谅我，芭芭拉。

She's passed away.

她已经去世了。

But sometimes it was just casual talk, but you did get the sense, she's a thinker.

但有时这只是随意的谈话，但你确实明白，她是一个思想家。

It's not white noise in there.

那里不是白噪音。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And you do sometimes get the sense that people who are constantly sending words out into the world, that it has an anxiety component.

有时你确实会感觉到，那些不断向世界发出言语的人，其中有焦虑的成分。

It doesn't necessarily seem that organized.

看起来不一定那么有组织。

But you and I have both met, and I'm sure many people know people who are hyper-verbal, but very structured-

但你和我都见过，而且我相信很多人都认识那些非常爱说话，但非常有条理的人——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

in their hyper-verbalness.

在他们的过度言语中。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So I guess I'm asking this because I want to break down the notions of quiet versus verbal.

所以我想我问这个问题是因为我想打破安静与言语的概念。

Introspective necessarily means calm.

内省必然意味着冷静。

So many assumptions around all this.

围绕这一切有很多假设。

None of it is necessarily true, and the reason I'm so genuinely curious about this is I think that most of the world is confronted with this Marc Andreessen provocative question, like how much time should we spend in here, and how does it serve us when we're out here-

这些都不一定是真的，我对此如此好奇的原因是我认为世界上大多数人都面临着马克·安德森（Marc Andreessen）的挑衅性问题，比如我们应该在这里花多少时间，以及当我们在这里时它如何为我们服务——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

in the rest of the world-

在世界其他地方——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and vice versa.

反之亦然。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

If we're just talking, talking, talking, doing all day, maybe we are processing, and we can be peaceful inside.

如果我们整天只是说话、说话、说话、做事，也许我们正在处理，我们的内心可以平静。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Lay our head down and that's it.

低下头，就是这样。

It's all out there

一切都在那里

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

For better or worse.

无论好坏。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But for us, it's great.

但对我们来说，这很棒。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But there's this assumption that whatever we see is also happening internally.

但有一个假设，即我们所看到的一切也在内部发生。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yeah.

是的。

I think we have to just be very wary of either mapping some stereotype.

我认为我们必须非常警惕映射某些刻板印象。

Oh, this is good, and that's not good, and applying some value system to it when we're outside of looking at a person in a context.

哦，这很好，那不好，当我们在一个背景中观察一个人时，应用一些价值体系。

Right?

正确的？

Because all of those things, being internalized, speaking less, or being hyper-verbal, they could mean anything under the sun.

因为所有这些事情，被内化、少说话或过度言语，它们可能意味着阳光下的任何事情。

It has to be who is the person and what is the context?

必须是这个人是谁以及背景是什么？

So if you're describing Barbara Chapman in meetings, I interpret that as she's communicating judiciously.

因此，如果您在会议中描述芭芭拉·查普曼，我会将其解读为她的沟通十分明智。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right?

对吗？

She's in a place where maybe sometimes people say excess things because they're self-aggrandizing, or they want to bring something up, or they're trying to guide a conversation one way or another, and you think, no, that's a place where less is more.

在她所处的地方，有时人们会说多余的话，因为他们自我夸大，或者他们想提出一些事情，或者他们试图以某种方式引导对话，而你会想，不，这是一个少即是多的地方。

Right?

正确的？

We're not doing that and just communicating about something that matters when it matters.

我们并不是这样做，只是在重要的时候就重要的事情进行交流。

Say, wow, that's speaking judiciously.

说吧，哇，这话说得很明智。

That's what it tells me about her.

这就是它告诉我的关于她的事情。

I don't know if her mind is going a mile a minute inside or if there was a calm and equanimity.

我不知道她的内心是否在高速运转，或者是否有平静和安宁。

But I think who that person was and what that situation was was adaptive.

但我认为那个人是谁以及当时的情况是适应性的。

Right?

正确的？

Same thing if there's someone who's speaking a lot, but they just have a lot of ideas, and they're really constructive ideas, and they're talking to people about those ideas, and they're enthusiastic, and it's helpful, well, that sounds good to me, right?

同样的事情，如果有人说了很多，但他们只是有很多想法，而且他们确实是建设性的想法，他们正在与人们谈论这些想法，他们很热情，这很有帮助，嗯，这对我来说听起来不错，对吧？

That sounds very different than someone who's hyper-verbal and they're talking, but you can tell they're saying the same thing but coming from a different angle, and they're anxious and they may want validation, right?

这听起来与那些言语过多且正在说话的人非常不同，但你可以看出他们说的是同一件事，但来自不同的角度，他们很焦虑，他们可能需要验证，对吗？

So the person and the context makes all the difference.

因此，人和环境决定一切。

We want to be able to identify when a person might fit a certain profile, right?

我们希望能够识别一个人何时适合某种特征，对吗？

There are people who are quiet because you said they're strong and they're silent and there's not a lot going on inside, but they're resolute.

有些人很安静，因为你说他们很坚强，他们很沉默，内心没有发生太多事情，但他们很坚决。

Okay, that's a kind of person, right?

好吧，这就是一种人吧？

But we shouldn't assume that that someone is that way until we've looked at who is that person and what is the context in which we're assessing them.

但是，在我们了解这个人是谁以及我们评估他们的背景是什么之前，我们不应该假设这个人就是这样的人。

We're human, so we fit patterns, right?

我们是人类，所以我们适应模式，对吗？

But we're all unique, so you won't know what pattern we may be fitting until you really look at us.

但我们都是独一无二的，所以在您真正观察我们之前，您不会知道我们可能适合什么模式。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

One thing I love about your book is you have probe questions.

我喜欢你的书的一件事是你提出了探究性问题。

You have questions for people to ask themselves-

你有一些问题要人们问自己——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Thank you

谢谢你

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

to explore the self.

去探索自我。

And I think for me, that is a huge gift of the book and the work in it.

我认为对我来说，这是这本书及其中的工作的巨大礼物。

When I got to see an advanced copy, I was like obviously you understand the theory and the science, and you're a clinician, but for me, okay, what do I ask myself?

当我看到高级副本时，我想显然你了解理论和科学，而且你是一名临床医生，但对我来说，好吧，我该问自己什么？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And how do I go about doing that?

我该怎么做呢？

How do I figure out what's going right as at least as a stepping stone to maybe exploring what's not going right, but certainly to really understand where my strengths might lie?

我如何弄清楚什么是正确的，至少可以作为探索什么是不正确的踏脚石，但肯定能真正了解我的优势所在？

And I think that it's a really unique gift because I think that we don't have enough of that.

我认为这是一份非常独特的礼物，因为我认为我们拥有的还不够。

I think we have a lot of what's going wrong, where are the friction points-

我认为我们有很多问题，摩擦点在哪里——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

what's wrong with me kind of stuff-

我怎么了-

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and what's wrong with the world.

以及世界出了什么问题。

And I think starting from that place of really knowing what the questions are to ask oneself is I just personally found immensely useful.

我认为从真正知道要问自己的问题开始，我个人发现非常有用。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I realize we're mainly discussing theory and up until now, although I'm about to ask you a very practical question, which is assuming no pathology, no life-crippling anxiety or depression or panic, how much do you think people should try and adjust their what I call the autonomic set point?

我意识到我们主要讨论的是理论，到目前为止，尽管我要问你一个非常实际的问题，假设没有病理学，没有危及生命的焦虑或抑郁或恐慌，你认为人们应该在多大程度上尝试调整他们的我所说的自主设定点？

Some people are just more expressive with their hands, with their words.

有些人只是用他们的手和他们的语言更有表现力。

They want to move a lot more.

他们想要更多地移动。

And if they don't, it makes them anxious.

如果他们不这样做，他们就会感到焦虑。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Other people are more still.

其他人则更加平静。

And we Again, assume that if they're physically still, that things are probably a bit more still internally, and that's not necessarily a bad thing.

我们再次假设，如果他们的身体是静止的，那么事情的内部可能会更加静止，这不一定是坏事。

But there is a lot of emphasis, including on this podcast, on learning to sit with stress, learning to sit with anxiety, and not just letting it out or experiencing it.

但有很多重点，包括在这个播客中，强调学会承受压力，学会承受焦虑，而不仅仅是发泄或体验它。

And sometimes I wonder, despite knowing the immense value of those tools, I've benefited so much from things like non-sleep deep rest and meditation and things like that, and I know others have as well.

有时我想知道，尽管知道这些工具的巨大价值，但我从非睡眠深度休息和冥想等事情中受益匪浅，而且我知道其他人也受益匪浅。

But how much should we be trying to control our states?

但我们应该在多大程度上努力控制我们的国家呢？

I do wonder if it's good for us to think that there's something wrong for us if we feel a certain way, period.

我确实想知道，如果我们有某种感觉，那么认为我们出了问题是否有好处。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

I think controlling our states in order to help us be at our best is different from trying to control our state so that we change ourselves.

我认为控制我们的状态以帮助我们处于最佳状态与试图控制我们的状态以改变我们自己是不同的。

So if you're finding a deep state of peace that's not sleep.

所以，如果你正在寻找一种深度的平静状态，那不是睡眠。

You find, oh, that helps you be a better you.

你发现，哦，这可以帮助你成为更好的自己。

That finding that peace, it gives you some groundedness, and you feel healthier for it, and you're better able to solve problems.

找到那种平静，会给你一些脚踏实地的感觉，你会因此感觉更健康，并且能够更好地解决问题。

So you're learning something and doing something because it serves you well and it helps you be at your best.

所以你正在学习一些东西并做一些事情，因为它对你很有帮助并且可以帮助你做到最好。

That's different than thinking, oh, I need to be different.

这与思考不同，哦，我需要有所不同。

If a person thinks, well, I need to be different and I need to be calmer or more peaceful, what does that mean?

如果一个人认为，嗯，我需要与众不同，我需要更冷静或更平和，这意味着什么？

And is that person imposing something external on themselves?

那个人是否将一些外在的东西强加于自己？

So there are people who are very active, and yes, they can sit quietly sometimes.

所以有些人非常活跃，是的，他们有时可以安静地坐着。

But they're not really built for it.

但它们并不是真正为此而设计的。

They're active people, and it works for them to be active.

他们是活跃的人，活跃对他们很有好处。

And they may be quite meditative when they don't seem to be quite meditative.

当他们看起来不怎么沉思的时候，他们可能却很沉思。

They can be doing something, and we see a lot of movement in them.

他们可以做一些事情，我们看到他们有很多动作。

But inside, they can be in a meditative state.

但在内心，他们可以处于冥想状态。

So it's so easy for us to-- It's well-meaning in that we're trying to understand.

所以我们很容易——我们试图理解这一点，这是善意的。

We're trying to understand ourselves, and we're trying to understand others, and we're trying to find patterns.

我们试图了解自己，我们试图了解他人，我们试图找到模式。

But it's so tempting to think that we know something because we're just observing someone in a certain state, or we're observing someone talking or not talking.

但是，我们很容易认为我们知道某些事情，因为我们只是在观察某人处于某种状态，或者我们正在观察某人说话或不说话。

It's like, well, what does that mean?

就像，嗯，这是什么意思？

And we have to ask the right questions in order to get there.

为了实现这一目标，我们必须提出正确的问题。

So the only way we really know the answers for a person is we have to understand that person, and we have to understand their context.

因此，我们真正了解一个人的答案的唯一方法是我们必须了解那个人，并且我们必须了解他们的背景。

So we must ask the right questions.

所以我们必须提出正确的问题。

You had talked about trying to write practical routes of approach to ourselves in the book.

您曾在书中谈到尝试写出接近我们自己的实用路线。

I'm doing that because think of if someone wanted to learn physics.

我这样做是因为考虑是否有人想学习物理。

Would you say, "Well, just stop, go somewhere and think about physics?" No, there has to be a route of approach of saying, well, here's some of the basic knowledge.

你会说：“好吧，停下来，去某个地方思考一下物理？”不，必须有一种方法可以说，嗯，这是一些基本知识。

Think about this, approach that way, read from this book and then that book.

想一想，以那样的方式处理，读这本书，然后读那本书。

There are ways that we are guided in how to learn things, and it's interesting that we don't have these guides for what's most important, which is learning about ourselves.

有很多方法可以指导我们如何学习事物，有趣的是，我们没有这些指南来指导最重要的事情，即了解我们自己。

So it brings us back to why it can make us so uncomfortable, so anxious to say, okay, we're going to sit with ourselves.

所以它让我们回到为什么它会让我们如此不舒服，如此急于说，好吧，我们要和自己坐在一起。

It's like saying, "Well, sit with yourself and learn horticulture." It's like, well, I don't know.

这就像在说：“好吧，坐下来学习园艺吧。”就像，嗯，我不知道。

I'll sit with myself, but you have to help me figure out how to learn that, or I'm going to feel anxious about sitting there if I don't know how to go about it.

我会自己坐下来，但你必须帮助我弄清楚如何学习，否则如果我不知道如何去做，我会感到焦虑。

So if we have the prompts to look at ourselves now, what we're doing is we're making it real.

因此，如果我们现在有审视自己的提示，我们正在做的就是让它成为现实。

We're asking the right questions of ourselves to think, oh, how do I function?

我们向自己提出正确的问题来思考，哦，我该如何运作？

What does work well for me?

什么对我有效？

How do I think of myself?

我如何看待自己？

How do others think of me?

别人怎么看我？

Am I introverted or extroverted?

我是内向还是外向？

Am I a combination of both?

我是两者的结合体吗？

Do I sometimes feel in one state and sometimes in another?

我是否有时感觉处于一种状态，有时感觉处于另一种状态？

Is it working for me?

它对我有用吗？

Is it working for me in the big picture?

从整体上看，它对我有用吗？

Are there parts of the small picture that work for me, or things I really don't like, or things where I really don't feel uncomfortable?

小图片中是否有适合我的部分，或者我真的不喜欢的东西，或者我真的不觉得不舒服的东西？

Now we're bringing curiosity, and yes, we want to learn from patterns and learn from all the knowledge we have of the world.

现在我们带来了好奇心，是的，我们想从模式中学习，从我们拥有的世界知识中学习。

But we're taking that and saying, hey, none of that actually means anything until it's directed towards me.

但我们接受了这一点并说，嘿，在它针对我之前，这些实际上都没有任何意义。

If I'm the person reflecting about myself, or if it's a helping process, we're helping a friend, or we're in a therapy process.

如果我是反思自己的人，或者如果这是一个帮助过程，那么我们正在帮助朋友，或者我们正在接受治疗过程。

We have to take everything that we know, and then it's all seen through the lens of that person.

我们必须掌握我们所知道的一切，然后通过那个人的镜头来看待这一切。

And we have to do it that way, or we'll lead ourselves astray.

我们必须这样做，否则我们就会误入歧途。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

If you're willing, I'm curious about throwing out a sort of a generic clinical session example.

如果您愿意，我很好奇抛出一种通用的临床会议示例。

Let's assume you know something about the family background of a patient, and there's nothing glaringly obvious in the background about trauma, or maybe there is, but there's nothing really to dig into there just yet.

假设您对患者的家庭背景有所了解，并且关于创伤的背景没有任何明显的信息，或者也许有，但目前还没有什么真正值得深入研究的。

And the person comes to you and says, "Yeah, I don't know.

然后那个人来找你说：“是的，我不知道。

Work is okay, but this, and so and so at work, and that, and I guess this is good." And they're dating, they're in their life, and I swear I'm not trying to get a free therapy session here.

工作还可以，但是工作中的这个、这个、那个，我想这很好。”他们正在约会，他们正在生活中，我发誓我并不是想在这里获得免费的治疗。

I'm just trying to imagine.

我只是试着想象一下。

So someone says, "And then the news is really bothering me," and just kind of reporting.

所以有人说，“然后这个新闻真的让我很困扰”，而且只是一种报道。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You observe human patterns.

你观察人类的模式。

Your pattern recognition is presumably oriented towards where there's emotion, where there's patterns in them, how it matches to templates that only you could harbor.

你的模式识别大概是针对哪里有情感，哪里有模式，以及它如何与只有你才能拥有的模板相匹配。

The same way that a really amazing neurosurgeon would look into the brain and see a pattern of epileptic seizure and would be like, okay, even without remembering those specific cases, I know which direction to go at this to explore.

就像一位非常出色的神经外科医生会观察大脑并看到癫痫发作的模式一样，好吧，即使不记得那些具体病例，我也知道该朝哪个方向探索。

When you hear all that stuff, and the stuff I'm talking about here is deliberately meant to reflect what you see a lot of on social media.

当你听到所有这些内容时，我在这里谈论的内容是故意反映你在社交媒体上看到的很多内容。

Upset about that political team, upset about that politically.

对那个政治团队感到不安，对政治上的事情感到不安。

And my life is this, but this, but this.

而我的生活就是这样，但是这样，但是这样。

What does that tell you?

这告诉你什么？

And what does it tell you specifically about where that person should invest effort into thinking or doing?

它具体告诉你这个人应该在哪些方面投入精力去思考或做事？

I realize it's impossible to give a pan prescriptive here, but what does that mean when somebody's just really absorbed by all the things going on around them, and things feel good, but where do you start to probe and where do you start to encourage them, at least until the next session?

我意识到在这里不可能给出一个泛泛的规定，但是当一个人真正被周围发生的所有事情所吸引并且感觉很好时，这意味着什么，但是你从哪里开始探索并从哪里开始鼓励他们，至少在下一次会议之前？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

The way to probe is to encourage reflection.

探究的方法是鼓励反思。

Because with what you said, I think, well, I'm hearing somebody reporting.

因为按照你所说的，我想，嗯，我听到有人报告。

It's like they're just telling me the news of what went on.

就好像他们只是告诉我发生的事情的消息。

I'm doing this, I'm doing that.

我正在做这个，我正在做那个。

I flew this way, I flew that way.

我飞向这边，我飞向那边。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mom did this and then dad did that.

妈妈做了这个，然后爸爸做了那个。

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

It's kind of an inventory or a laundry list.

这是一种库存清单或洗衣清单。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

So what it makes me think is, huhh, I wonder how much of that you're really choosing.

所以这让我想到的是，呵呵，我想知道你真正选择了多少。

Or how much of that is intentional, or how much of that is just a reflex.

或者其中有多少是故意的，或者有多少只是条件反射。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The behaviors in their life, how much of it they're choosing, or the reporting?

他们生活中的行为，他们选择了多少行为，或者报告？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yeah.

是的。

No, the behaviors, how much of what they're reporting.

不，是行为，他们报告的内容有多少。

Like, how much of that are you really choosing?

比如，你真正选择了多少？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Hmm.

嗯。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

How much of that is what you want to be doing?

其中有多少是你想做的？

How much of that is working for you?

其中有多少对你有用？

What we're trying to do then, and what I want to do then is encourage, to have some interest in examination of like, "Whoa, why am I doing all of this?" Maybe some of this I really like and I am interested in, and others of it I'm just doing because it's habit or it's routine, or I don't even know why I'm doing it.

我们当时想做的，也是我想做的，是鼓励人们对这样的检查产生兴趣，“哇，我为什么要做这一切？”也许其中一些我真的很喜欢并且感兴趣，而另一些我只是因为习惯或例行公事而做，或者我什至不知道为什么要这样做。

Or if I'm dating, who am I dating?

或者如果我在约会，我在和谁约会？

Why am I dating?

我为什么要约会？

How am I choosing?

我如何选择？

Is that also just something that I do?

这也只是我做的事吗？

How much am I just along for the ride of what I'm doing-

我有多少只是为了我正在做的事情而努力-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Hmm

嗯

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

...

...

that just has forward momentum, versus what am I really choosing?

只是有前进的动力，而不是我真正选择的是什么？

Now, if we stop and we look at it that way, what are you really choosing?

现在，如果我们停下来，这样看，你真正选择的是什么？

And also, what's working for you?

还有，什么对你有用？

Now we're off to the races of an examined life.

现在我们要开始一场经过审视的生活了。

And we see this, as I know you know, we do a lot of intensive work.

我们看到了这一点，正如我所知，我们做了很多密集的工作。

We do it with individuals, we do it with couples, where we try and move this process forward very, very rapidly of looking at one's own life.

我们与个人一起这样做，我们与夫妻一起这样做，我们尝试非常非常迅速地推动这一进程，审视自己的生活。

And it's very interesting that sometimes, by midway through the second day of an intensive process, the person wants to revisit almost everything.

非常有趣的是，有时，在密集过程的第二天中途，人们想要重新审视几乎所有事情。

They realize, 10, 20% of all those things I just said, this is what I do, I really value and I want to be doing more of.

他们意识到，在我刚才所说的所有事情中，有 10%、20% 这就是我所做的、我真正重视的并且我想做更多的事情。

The others, I'm not so sure of.

其他的，我不太确定。

I don't know why I'm doing some of those things.

我不知道为什么我要做这些事情。

Now, we're really along the process of change because we're looking at ourselves, and it may seem strange that someone would say that 80% of what I just told you I do, I don't know if I want to do or if it's working for me.

现在，我们确实正处于变革的过程中，因为我们正在审视自己，有人会说我刚才告诉你的事情中的 80% 我不知道我是否想做，或者它是否对我有用，这似乎很奇怪。

But that happens all the time.

但这种情况经常发生。

When we're not examining our lives, they just run forward, and we accumulate what we accumulate, right?

当我们不审视自己的生活时，他们只是向前奔跑，我们积累我们所积累的，对吗？

And it's like, well, this is what we are because this is what I've accumulated by grabbing and carrying with me as I'm moving through life, and there's not an organization to it.

就像，嗯，这就是我们的样子，因为这是我在生活中通过抓住和携带而积累起来的东西，而且没有任何组织。

So this idea that we must examine our lives is at the heart of all of this.

因此，我们必须审视我们的生活，这一想法是这一切的核心。

That's how we keep mental health and our structure of self and our function of self.

这就是我们保持心理健康、自我结构和自我功能的方式。

We keep our drives in balance.

我们保持驱动器的平衡。

We set ourselves on a path where we are in a place to meet future challenges from the best health we can have, and also to meet future opportunities.

我们为自己设定了一条道路，使我们能够以最佳的健康状况应对未来的挑战，并迎接未来的机遇。

So just like we want to do with our physical health, we want to build good physical health, likewise, we want to build good mental health.

因此，就像我们想要保持身体健康一样，我们想要建立良好的身体健康，同样，我们想要建立良好的心理健康。

When that's the best way to be when life throws us whatever curve balls are going to come our way, and it's also the best way to have a good life, to be on the front foot of life.

当生活向我们抛出任何曲线球时，这是最好的方式，这也是拥有美好生活、站在生活前沿的最好方式。

But we need to examine ourselves, and we need a process and a structure in order to build good mental health the way we build good physical health, and ultimately, that's how we build good health.

但我们需要审视自己，我们需要一个过程和一个结构，以便像建立良好的身体健康一样建立良好的心理健康，最终，这就是我们建立良好健康的方式。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So what I'm hearing is in order to gain more agency over any areas of our life, we have to ask the why question.

所以我听到的是，为了在我们生活的任何领域获得更多的代理权，我们必须问“为什么”问题。

Why am I doing what I'm doing now, and why aren't I doing this other thing that perhaps would serve me better?

为什么我要做我现在正在做的事情，为什么我不做其他可能对我更好的事情呢？

It starts with questions-

它从问题开始——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

of self.

自我的。

What do you do, and this must be incredibly frustrating, at least it would be to me, what do you do if you say, "Well, why aren't..." And the person says, "Well, I know I should work out, but I don't." And you say, "Well, why not?" And they say, "Well, I don't know.

你会做什么，这一定是令人难以置信的令人沮丧，至少对我来说，如果你说，“好吧，为什么不……”你会怎么做，而那个人说，“好吧，我知道我应该锻炼，但我没有。”你说：“好吧，为什么不呢？”他们说：“嗯，我不知道。

I'm tired.

我累了。

I know I should." Then you say, "Well, why do you still hang out with Sharon when you always come back from it feeling totally exhausted and feeling like you've just had all this stuff done to you?" "Oh, I don't know." How do you work past the person who's just like, "This is just life.

我知道我应该这么做。”然后你说：“好吧，当你回来时总是感觉筋疲力尽，感觉自己刚刚经历了所有这些事情，为什么你还和莎伦一起出去玩呢？” “哦，我不知道。”你如何克服那些“这就是生活”的人？

This is just-

这只是——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

what life requires.

生活需要什么。

I got to work.

我得去工作了。

I got my friends.

我有我的朋友们。

What am I going to do, overhaul my life?" And this probably varies by region and by generation, the extent to which people are willing to look at things and think and spin them around, like rotate the cube, as I like to call it, and look at it from underneath a bit, and just as a practice.

我该怎么办，彻底改变我的生活？”这可能因地区和世代而异，人们愿意在多大程度上观察事物、思考并旋转它们，就像旋转立方体，正如我喜欢称之为的那样，从下面看它，就像一种练习。

To some people, that's okay, cool.

对某些人来说，这没关系，很酷。

I'll play the-- No one listens to albums anymore the same way they used to, but I'll play the album in reverse for a bit.

我会播放——没有人再像以前那样听专辑了，但我会反向播放一下专辑。

Maybe it'll give me something different.

也许它会给我一些不同的东西。

Maybe we're like, "Ah, that's the album.

也许我们会说，“啊，那就是这张专辑。

That's just how I do it."

我就是这么做的。”

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So how do you get somebody to do this?

那么你如何让别人去做这件事呢？

And of course, I'm not asking you to tell us this so that people can play therapist with others, even though they naturally do.

当然，我并不是要求你告诉我们这一点，以便人们可以与他人一起扮演治疗师的角色，尽管他们很自然地这样做。

I'm asking this because hopefully, this is what people will do for themselves.

我问这个问题是因为希望这就是人们为自己做的事情。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Well, if someone is talking in the way of the person you described, saying, "Well, this is just what I do," and they're describing, I think you said every time they go out with Sharon, they come home and they feel kind of drained, and they don't feel good.

好吧，如果有人以你所描述的人的方式说话，说，“好吧，这就是我所做的”，他们在描述，我想你说过，每次他们和莎伦出去时，他们回到家都会感到有点疲惫，而且感觉不太好。

Then they move on to something else, and to something else.

然后他们转向别的事情，然后去做别的事情。

And they might talk about their job and something that's frustrating them all the time, and they just keep going forward.

他们可能会谈论自己的工作以及一直让他们感到沮丧的事情，但他们只是继续前进。

Then I might say, "Well, what you're doing is you're showing both of us where the X's are.

然后我可能会说：“好吧，你所做的就是向我们俩展示 X 所在的位置。

The X's mark the spot to dig.

X 标记了挖掘位置。

So you're showing us, hey, here's where there's some treasure.

所以你向我们展示了，嘿，这里有一些宝藏。

Let's dig where this X is." So if you're going out with someone and every time you see that person, you come home and you feel a sense of lethargy, and you feel a sense of time wasn't well spent, and you kind of feel hopeless, well, it's really important to think about why you're doing that.

我们来挖一下这个X在哪里。”所以，如果你和某人出去，每次看到那个人，你回到家就会感到一种昏昏欲睡的感觉，你会觉得时间没有被充分利用，你会感到绝望，那么，思考一下你为什么这样做真的很重要。

And I would link it to something else.

我会把它与其他东西联系起来。

So I might say, "So you know, you had said earlier on, or a couple of sessions ago, that you really want to find a partner, and you really want to find a good relationship.

所以我可能会说，“所以你知道，你早些时候或几次会议前曾说过，你真的想找到一个伴侣，你真的想找到一个良好的关系。

So that's important to you.

所以这对你来说很重要。

You told me that it was, and now you're telling me that you keep seeing this person where you know every time you go out the front door that nothing good is going to come of it, and you're going to come back feeling worse than when you left.

你告诉我是这样，现在你告诉我，你不断地见到这个人，每次你走出前门，你都知道不会有什么好结果，而且你回来的时候感觉会比你离开时更糟糕。

We should look at why." And we don't have to be scared to look at why, because this is where the fear comes in, like, oh my gosh, what is wrong with me?

我们应该看看为什么。”我们不必害怕去看看为什么，因为这就是恐惧出现的地方，就像，天哪，我怎么了？

Why would I be doing that?

我为什么要这么做？

Somewhere inside of them, that person knows that's not working for me, but I'm still doing it.

在他们内心的某个地方，那个人知道这对我不起作用，但我仍然在这样做。

So there's some fear of looking at that.

所以看到这个会有一些恐惧。

So if we say, "Hey, no harm, no foul.

所以如果我们说：“嘿，没有伤害，没有犯规。

Let's think about why." It may be that that person really wants, that person, in this case, I think it's Sharon, wants Sharon to like them.

让我们想想为什么。”可能那个人真的想要,那个人,在这个例子中,我认为是莎伦,想要莎伦喜欢他们。

And maybe they feel a need to be liked, so they don't like this person, but they think they need this person to like them.

也许他们觉得需要被人喜欢，所以他们不喜欢这个人，但他们认为他们需要这个人喜欢他们。

Maybe.

或许。

Maybe they're a person who always takes too much care of others versus themselves, and they don't like Sharon, but Sharon likes them.

也许他们是一个总是太照顾别人而不是自己的人，他们不喜欢莎伦，但莎伦喜欢他们。

So they don't really want to end that relationship.

所以他们并不是真的想结束这种关系。

There's something going on there because the person is saying, "Hey, I'm doing this thing that absolutely won't get me what I want, and I'll keep doing it." You say, "Well, that's not really what you want.

那里发生了一些事情，因为这个人在说：“嘿，我正在做的这件事绝对不会让我得到我想要的东西，但我会继续这样做。”你说：“好吧，这并不是你真正想要的。

If you are doing it over and over again, you think you're going to keep doing it, it's just because you haven't felt empowered enough that, hey, I can understand myself, and I can bring some change so that my behaviors, my choices, are actually in line with my wishes, with my strivings." So now we get that person interested.

如果你一遍又一遍地这样做，你认为你会继续这样做，那只是因为你没有感觉到足够的力量，嘿，我可以理解自己，我可以带来一些改变，这样我的行为、我的选择实际上符合我的愿望和我的努力。”所以现在我们让那个人感兴趣。

We tell them that there is an X.

我们告诉他们有一个X。

Let's understand why it is that you're still going out with Sharon.

让我们了解一下为什么你仍然和莎伦约会。

There's got to be something to learn there, and there always is.

那里一定有东西要学，而且总是有的。

If we dig where the X's are, we do get some treasure.

如果我们挖掘 X 所在的位置，我们确实会得到一些宝藏。

It might be a little, it might be a lot, but we learn from that, and we bring that learning to life.

可能是一点，也可能是很多，但我们从中学习，并将所学付诸实践。

The rubber hits the road as that leads to real-life change.

橡胶上路，带来现实生活的改变。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That makes really good sense, and thank you for the clarity of that answer.

这确实很有道理，感谢您的清晰答案。

It brings us back to asking why to develop more agency around possibly making different choices.

这让我们重新思考为什么要围绕可能做出不同的选择建立更多的代理机构。

It's not always-- I guess one could realize they want that kind of relationship but with someone else, or they want a completely different kind of relationship with the same person.

并不总是——我想人们可能会意识到他们想要这种关系，但与其他人，或者他们想要与同一个人建立一种完全不同的关系。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And to work on that.

并为此努力。

But it starts with asking questions.

但这是从提出问题开始的。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I realize I'm going backwards into this, but it goes from inventories are a start toward informing what questions are useful.

我意识到我正在倒退，但它从清单开始，是告知哪些问题有用的开始。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Useful questions probe understanding that hopefully develops more agency.

有用的问题可以探究理解，从而有望培养更多的能动性。

Do you encourage people once they get to a point of, "Oh, yeah, maybe I want a different sort of relationship to this person or thing or activity in life"?

一旦人们想到“哦，是的，也许我想要与生活中的这个人、事物或活动建立一种不同的关系”，你会鼓励他们吗？

Do you give them specific action directives like, "Yeah, how about between this session and next session you go to the gym twice?" You do whatever there.

你是否给他们具体的行动指令，例如，“是的，在本次训练和下一次训练之间，你去健身房两次怎么样？”你在那里做任何事。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Maybe watch TV and just pedal on the bike, or maybe you go and you really take a course or a class, rather.

也许看电视然后骑自行车，或者也许你去参加一门课程或一堂课。

Do you tend to give people clear directives about what could really help if you sense that that could really help?

如果您觉得这确实有帮助，您是否倾向于向人们提供明确的指示，告诉他们什么才是真正有帮助的？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Sometimes, but I think it's much more effective if it's arrived at collaboratively.

有时会，但我认为如果通过协作达成的话会更有效。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

So if we decide, hey, you know what would be really good?

所以如果我们决定，嘿，你知道什么才是真正好的吗？

And we both agree.

我们都同意。

We've talked back and forth now, and if you can get to the gym once before you come back next week.

我们现在已经反复讨论过，如果你能在下周回来之前去一次健身房。

And then we talk about that back and forth.

然后我们来回讨论这个问题。

Maybe that person wants to go to the gym five times before they come back.

也许那个人想在回来之前去健身房五次。

But each time they do that, they get frustrated with themselves, and they don't go at all.

但每次他们这样做时，他们都会对自己感到沮丧，并且根本不去。

So we might say, "Look, we've been talking about this," and maybe I'll say it, or maybe the patient will say it, and to say, "Look, I do want to be going to the gym.

所以我们可能会说，“看，我们一直在谈论这个，”也许我会说，或者病人会说，然后说，“看，我确实想去健身房。

I want to be getting exercise, and I see I go between too much and too little.

我想要锻炼身体，但我发现自己介于太多和太少之间。

I go between taking on too much, then I get frustrated, then I don't do anything.

我有时会承担太多，然后感到沮丧，然后什么也不做。

How about something that's more measured?

更可衡量的事情怎么样？

Okay.

好的。

Maybe I'll try and go on Monday and Friday and make that." We decide, yeah, you know what?

也许我会尝试周一和周五去并做到这一点。”我们决定，是的，你知道吗？

Maybe twice is okay.

也许两次就可以了。

Or should it be once?

或者应该是一次？

Because if you get once under your belt, you can get twice under your belt the next week.

因为如果你成功了一次，那么下周你就可以成功两次。

So we're just trying to understand, so there's no mystery to it, and we know what we're doing.

所以我们只是试图理解，所以这并不神秘，我们知道我们在做什么。

So someone who wants to have a different relationship and says, "Well, maybe I could have a good relationship with Sharon, but I'd have to talk to her about A, B, and C that isn't really going well." Okay, how might you do that?

因此，想要建立不同关系的人会说：“好吧，也许我可以与莎伦建立良好的关系，但我必须与她谈论 A、B 和 C，但进展并不顺利。”好吧，你会怎么做呢？

Let's think about it.

我们想一想。

Because that communication isn't going to happen unless you bring it, and what's keeping you from that?

因为除非你亲自带来，否则这种沟通就不会发生，是什么阻止了你呢？

How might you approach her in a way that you could really talk?

你怎样才能以一种可以真正交谈的方式接近她？

What's holding you back?

是什么阻碍了你？

So we're trying to problem solve, but we're doing so in a way that's open, where we know what we're doing, and we're not bringing some magic or mystery to it.

所以我们正在努力解决问题，但我们是以开放的方式这样做的，我们知道我们在做什么，并且我们不会给它带来一些魔法或神秘。

We're trying to move ahead, and we understand it's one step at a time, and we want to take those steps, so we don't want someone to think-- Often, we want a process of change to occur so fast that it can't possibly occur as fast as we want it to, and then we get frustrated in two weeks.

我们正在努力向前迈进，我们知道这是一次一步，我们想要采取这些步骤，所以我们不希望别人认为——通常，我们希望变革过程发生得如此之快，以至于它不可能像我们希望的那样快地发生，然后我们在两周内感到沮丧。

So we have to set reasonable expectations of, hey, you could really get somewhere with this in a couple of months.

所以我们必须设定合理的期望，嘿，你真的可以在几个月内取得进展。

It seems like that from our conversations.

从我们的谈话来看似乎是这样。

What do you think?

你怎么认为？

We make sure we're on the same page, and then we say, well, one week after another, we could put one foot in front of the other, and we can get ourselves there.

我们确保我们意见一致，然后我们说，好吧，一周又一周，我们可以把一只脚放在另一只脚前面，然后我们就可以到达那里。

And it's not easy.

这并不容易。

So it might not be easy to, say, broach that first conversation with Sharon or get yourself to the gym that first time.

因此，与莎伦进行第一次谈话或第一次去健身房可能并不容易。

But we can help you bolster yourself, so all your arrows are going in the same direction.

但我们可以帮助您增强自己，让您所有的箭都朝着同一个方向前进。

You set yourself up for success.

你为成功做好了准备。

You're not going to try to go the morning after a long night out, and we set you up for success, and you get a win.

您不会在度过漫长的一夜之后尝试第二天早上去，我们为您的成功做好了准备，您就获得了胜利。

And small wins empower and embolden us to take a little bit more chances and get bigger wins.

小的胜利让我们有勇气、有勇气去尝试更多的机会，获得更大的胜利。

And if our structure of self and our function of self are in good places, then what rests on top of that is empowerment.

如果我们的自我结构和自我功能处于良好的位置，那么最重要的是赋权。

There's a sense of empowerment in us and also a sense of humility that lets us accept that we're human, that things aren't perfect, and maybe I have been making the same mistake over and over again.

我们内心有一种赋权感，也有一种谦卑感，让我们接受我们是人，事物并不完美，也许我一直在一遍又一遍地犯同样的错误。

It's all okay.

一切都好。

I'm human, and if I have the humility to accept that, and I have empowerment, then I can meet the world through agency and this active gratitude.

我是人，如果我谦虚地接受这一点，并且我有能力，那么我就可以通过代理和这种积极的感激之情来认识世界。

I'm grateful that Sharon's still here, and I can talk to her.

我很感激莎伦还在这里，我可以和她谈谈。

I'm grateful that there's a gym for me to go to.

我很庆幸有一个健身房可供我去。

I'm healthy enough for me to get myself there, and I've got enough agency inside of myself that I'm going to do these things that I've decided to do.

我的健康状况足以让我自己实现这一目标，而且我内心有足够的动力去做我决定要做的事情。

This is how we make life change, whether it be small or big.

这就是我们如何改变生活，无论是小还是大。

And how do we get to big life change?

我们如何实现生活的重大改变？

It starts with small steps.

它从小步骤开始。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Function.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 Function。

Function provides over 160 advanced lab tests to give you a clear snapshot of your bodily health.

功能提供超过 160 项高级实验室测试，让您清晰了解自己的身体健康状况。

This snapshot gives you insights into your heart health, your hormone health, autoimmune function, nutrient levels, and much more.

通过此快照，您可以深入了解心脏健康状况、激素健康状况、自身免疫功能、营养水平等。

They've also recently added access to advanced MRI and CT scans.

他们最近还增加了先进的 MRI 和 CT 扫描的访问权限。

Function not only provides testing of over 160 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, it also analyzes these results and provides recommendations for improving your health from top doctors.

Function 不仅提供对您身心健康至关重要的 160 多种生物标记物的测试，还分析这些结果并提供顶级医生改善您健康的建议。

For example, in a recent test with Function, I learned that some of my blood lipids were slightly out of range.

例如，在最近的一次 Function 测试中，我发现我的一些血脂稍微超出了范围。

As a result, I decided to start supplementing with nattokinase, which can naturally help reduce LDL cholesterol.

因此，我决定开始补充纳豆激酶，它自然可以帮助降低低密度脂蛋白胆固醇。

And it did.

确实如此。

In a follow-up test, I could confirm that this strategy worked.

在后续测试中，我可以确认这个策略是有效的。

My blood lipids are now back exactly where I want them.

我的血脂现在完全回到了我想要的水平。

Comprehensive lab testing of the sort that Function offers is just so important for health.

Function 提供的全面实验室测试对于健康非常重要。

How else are you going to know what's going on under the hood?

否则你怎么知道幕后发生了什么？

And while I've been doing blood work for years, it used to be time-consuming, complicated, and expensive.

虽然我从事血液检查已有多年，但它过去非常耗时、复杂且昂贵。

In fact, I used to spend thousands of dollars per year trying to get this kind of data, and the data, frankly, were not all that good.

事实上，我曾经每年花费数千美元试图获得此类数据，但坦率地说，这些数据并不那么好。

But now with Function, it's extremely easy and affordable.

但现在有了 Function，它变得非常简单且经济实惠。

A Function membership is only a dollar a day, $365 a year.

Function 会员每天仅需 1 美元，每年 365 美元。

And if you think about the information it provides and the health challenges it helps you avoid and the proactive things that it can do for you to enhance your health, I truly look at it as a savings.

如果您考虑一下它提供的信息、它可以帮助您避免的健康挑战以及它可以为您增强健康所做的积极主动的事情，我确实将其视为一种节省。

To learn more, visit functionhealth.com/huberman and use the code Huberman for a $50 credit towards your membership.

要了解更多信息，请访问 functionhealth.com/huberman 并使用代码 Huberman 获得 50 美元的会员积分。

Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman.

同样，这是 functionhealth.com/huberman。

Okay, so once again, we're talking about asking the right questions.

好的，我们再一次谈论提出正确的问题。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Hmm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There's no doubt that the families we're born into and the families we grow up around and the people we grow up around impact us tremendously.

毫无疑问，我们出生的家庭、成长的家庭以及成长的人对我们影响巨大。

At what point does it make sense to try and think about the patterns that you were exposed to as a way to have more agency, to ask better questions about why?

在什么时候尝试思考你所接触到的模式才有意义，以此来获得更多的代理权，更好地提出关于为什么的问题？

I think right now, in addition to this not so little debate about the value of introspection versus just doing, and clearly it's both, there's also a debate going on about how much to think about the past and traumas, et cetera.

我认为现在，除了关于内省与只是做的价值的不少争论之外，显然两者都是，而且还存在着关于对过去和创伤等进行多少思考的争论。

I won't go into why this is really of the times right now, but the dilemma seems to be, do you look at your life as something that's happening now and focus on the why questions so you do what you need to do to make your life better?

我不会解释为什么现在确实是这个时代，但困境似乎是，你是否将你的生活视为现在正在发生的事情，并专注于为什么问题，以便你做你需要做的事情来让你的生活变得更好？

Or is there real value in identifying patterns that you observed or were forced to participate in as a kid as a way of having more agency?

或者，识别你小时候观察到或被迫参与的模式作为拥有更多代理权的方式是否真正有价值？

In other words, if someone sees or just verbally hears a pattern, does it actually help them make change?

换句话说，如果有人看到或只是口头听到一种模式，它真的能帮助他们做出改变吗？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yes, it does.

是的，确实如此。

Yes, it's insight that sets us free, and it's insight that puts us in the driver's seat of our lives.

是的，正是洞察力让我们获得了自由，也正是洞察力让我们掌控了生活。

Otherwise, we're just reacting.

否则，我们只是做出反应。

So in the example that you gave, so imagine a person who had a very over-controlling parent.

所以在你给出的例子中，想象一个人有一个控制欲很强的父母。

So they don't have insight, and they become over-controlling themselves.

所以他们没有洞察力，他们变得过度控制自己。

They associate that high level of control with being powerful.

他们将高度的控制力与强大联系在一起。

They feel less vulnerable when they're being powerful, so they end up being over-controlling with their own children, just like their parents were.

当他们强大时，他们会感觉不那么脆弱，所以他们最终会对自己的孩子过度控制，就像他们的父母一样。

We say, "Okay, we can recognize that," and we'll say it's pattern repetition or whatever words we want to put to it, and we go, "Oh, gosh, that person doesn't have insight." But when the person is doing the opposite, that's not necessarily good either.

我们说，“好吧，我们可以认识到这一点”，然后我们会说这是模式重复，或者我们想用任何词语来形容它，然后我们会说，“哦，天哪，那个人没有洞察力。”但当一个人做相反的事时，也不一定是好事。

So a person could say, "Well, my parent was over-controlling.

所以一个人可以说：“嗯，我的父母控制过度。

I'm going to be easygoing.

我会变得随和。

I'm going to be more easygoing." But if that person doesn't have insight, then they can become too permissive.

我会变得更加随和。”但如果那个人没有洞察力，那么他们就会变得过于宽容。

So now they're not controlling things in a way that does make sense.

所以现在他们没有以一种有意义的方式控制事情。

They're not exercising the healthy control of a parent.

他们没有行使父母的健康控制权。

So they could identify with what the parent did and do the same thing, or they could push away from it and do the opposite.

因此，他们可以认同父母所做的事情并做同样的事情，或者他们可以摆脱父母所做的事情并做相反的事情。

But the opposite isn't good either.

但相反的情况也不好。

It's insight that lets us say, "Oh, no, my parent or parents were over-controlling, and maybe that even got to a place where it was very, very difficult and maybe even abusive, and I don't want to be like that.

正是这种洞察力让我们说：“哦，不，我的父母过度控制，也许这甚至到了非常非常困难的地步，甚至可能是虐待的地步，我不想成为那样。

And I'm not going to be like that." But I'm not going to rush to the opposite pole either.

我不会那样的。”但我也不会急于走向相反的极点。

And now I have to, I get to, I both have to and get to figure out what's a healthy level of control.

现在我必须，我必须，我必须并且必须弄清楚什么是健康的控制水平。

How much control does it make sense to exert to keep the child safe, for example, but also to then allow the child enough latitude to be growing and making their own decisions.

例如，为了保证孩子的安全，同时又给孩子足够的自由度来成长和做出自己的决定，施加多少控制才有意义。

So it's insight that says, "Oh, I see what that was in my past." And often we do need to do that.

因此，洞察力说：“哦，我看到了我的过去。”通常我们确实需要这样做。

Often, early childhood experiences, especially experiences within family units, have a great impact upon us and often will guide our behaviors, and then kind of like automatons, we're acting one way or we're acting another, and we don't know why.

通常，童年早期的经历，尤其是家庭单位内的经历，会对我们产生很大的影响，并且常常会指导我们的行为，然后有点像机器人，我们以一种方式行事，或者以另一种方式行事，我们不知道为什么。

But it's insight that lets us gain the understanding.

但正是洞察力让我们获得了理解。

Here's how it was when I was growing up.

这就是我成长过程中的情况。

I can look at that.

我可以看看。

I can see it, good, bad, or otherwise.

我可以看到它，好，坏，或其他。

And then I can decide how do I want to integrate that information to how the whole me is going to be in the driver's seat of being a good parent.

然后我可以决定如何将这些信息整合到整个我将如何成为一个好父母的驾驶座上。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So there seems to be something fundamentally valuable about insights where we realize I want to push away from something, a pattern, or I want to get more like someone or something that would serve me better.

因此，当我们意识到我想要摆脱某些东西、一种模式，或者我想要变得更像某个人或某件事，从而更好地为我服务时，洞察力似乎具有一些根本上的价值。

And I realize that might just be a giant duh based on what you said, but I'm trying to think about what that means about the mind, about the human mind.

我意识到，根据你所说的，这可能只是一个巨大的废话，但我正在尝试思考这对思想、对人类思想意味着什么。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I can imagine that there are instances where people are in patterns of behavior, and they're struggling with them.

我可以想象，在某些情况下，人们处于某种行为模式中，并且正在与这些模式作斗争。

They're not working for them, and they know it, and they want to make the change.

他们没有为他们工作，他们知道这一点，并且他们想要做出改变。

This is the thing I hear all the time.

这是我一直听到的事情。

"I know I should do it, but" they don't do it.

“我知道我应该这样做，但是”他们不这样做。

What you're saying is when we can know that that pattern was something we observed or we're doing the opposite of something we observed, doesn't matter which, suddenly we have agency.

你所说的是，当我们知道该模式是我们观察到的，或者我们正在做与我们观察到的相反的事情时，无论哪一种，我们突然就拥有了代理权。

What do you think that is?

你认为那是什么？

This is a different kind of question than I've been asking up until now.

这是一个与我迄今为止提出的问题不同的问题。

What is that?

那是什么？

Because my clinician can tell me, "Hey, you know what?

因为我的临床医生可以告诉我，“嘿，你知道吗？

You should really start to eat better and get to sleep on time," because we both know This isn't serving you well.

你真的应该开始吃得更好，按时睡觉，”因为我们都知道这对你没有好处。

And the person comes back, and they're not doing the behaviors.

当这个人回来时，他们并没有做出这些行为。

They're not changing their behaviors.

他们没有改变自己的行为。

They're not changing.

他们没有改变。

And then you ask them, "Hey, like, what is this about?" And you get to a place where it reflects something in childhood.

然后你问他们，“嘿，这是什么意思？”你会发现它反映了童年的某些东西。

They're either going against or they're going with that pattern.

他们要么反对这种模式，要么遵循这种模式。

You're telling me that that realization gives them a sense of agency.

你告诉我，这种认识给了他们一种代理感。

Aha, it comes from me, but I didn't program that in.

啊哈，它来自我，但我没有把它编进去。

What is the insight?

什么是洞察力？

Like, what allows that?

就像，什么允许这样做？

What is the wedge that lets people change their behavior simply by understanding that-

让人们仅仅通过理解这一点就可以改变他们的行为的楔子是什么——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

some or all of it is inherited from a pattern?

部分或全部是从模式继承的？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

When we realize that there's something, whether it's external or internal, controlling us, it diffuses that tension.

当我们意识到有某种东西，无论是外部的还是内部的，控制着我们时，它就会消除这种紧张。

And part of why it diffuses the tension and lets us see clearly and gives us control is because we don't like it.

它分散了紧张感，让我们看得更清楚，并让我们能够控制，部分原因是因为我们不喜欢它。

None of us want to be like in the Manchurian Candidate, where there's a sound, and then we behave in a certain way, and we're triggered in a certain way, and then we just do something, and we do it automatically.

我们谁都不想像满洲里的候选人一样，那里有声音，然后我们以某种方式行事，我们以某种方式被触发，然后我们只是做某事，我们自动地做。

Like, we don't like that.

就像，我们不喜欢那样。

And if we realize, oh, that's happening in me.

如果我们意识到，哦，这正在发生在我身上。

So if I realize, gosh, I've been programmed, right, and if someone is disagreeing with me, it makes me feel so bad or so vulnerable or insecure, it makes me feel like I felt when I was a kid, right?

所以，如果我意识到，天哪，我已经被编程了，对吧，如果有人不同意我的观点，这会让我感觉很糟糕或很脆弱或没有安全感，这让我感觉就像我小时候的感觉，对吗？

So now what I'm doing is I'm being just like the parent was.

所以现在我所做的就是像父母一样。

I'm not giving my child a chance to have his or her own opinion because I won't let myself tolerate that feeling.

我不会给我的孩子表达自己意见的机会，因为我不会让自己容忍这种感觉。

So what's happened is it's just been automatic from when I was a kid, and it felt so bad, and now I'm in the position of trying to make myself feel good by imposing that on my own child.

所以发生的事情是，从我还是个孩子的时候起，这就是自动的，感觉很糟糕，现在我试图通过把这种强加给我自己的孩子来让自己感觉良好。

I don't want to do that.

我不想那样做。

Wow, I see that.

哇，我明白了。

Or realizing that because that happened and I wasn't allowed to have my own say when I was growing up, I'm letting my children kind of run wild in ways that aren't even safe for them.

或者意识到，因为发生了这种事，而且我在成长过程中不被允许有自己的发言权，所以我让我的孩子们以一种对他们来说甚至不安全的方式狂奔。

And wow, I pushed so hard against that.

哇，我极力反对这一点。

It's this realization that something inside of us is being triggered, and then we just do something automatically that we haven't thought about or decided to.

正是这种认识，让我们内心的某些东西被触发，然后我们就会自动做一些我们没有想到或决定做的事情。

That is a very, very strong effect on humans.

这对人类有非常非常强烈的影响。

We really don't like that.

我们真的不喜欢这样。

So if we can combine that with compassionate curiosity, like if one of us were really, really, really hungry, and there's food right outside the door, but we're not getting up to get it, it's a reasonable question to ask why, right?

因此，如果我们能够将这一点与富有同情心的好奇心结合起来，就像我们中的一个人真的真的真的很饿，门外就有食物，但我们没有起身去拿，那么问为什么是一个合理的问题，对吗？

I mean, it's got to be something very powerful to keep a person who's so hungry from just going and getting food.

我的意思是，它必须是非常强大的东西才能让一个非常饥饿的人不再去获取食物。

What are these forces within us that are exerting such control over us?

我们内心对我们施加如此控制的力量是什么？

Now we get the person to be on their own side.

现在我们让这个人站在自己一边。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Instead of saying, "I want to do A, B, and C, but I just can't," or, "There's just not enough time," they're like, "Whoa, why is it that I'm telling myself?

他们不会说，“我想做 A、B 和 C，但我做不到”，或者“时间不够”，他们会说，“哇，为什么我要告诉自己？

Do I really want to do it?

我真的想做吗？

If I do, what's keeping me from doing it?

如果我这样做，是什么阻止我这样做？

How am I keeping me from doing it?" Now we bring our gumption, we bring our resources internally and externally to the problem, and the whole thing shifts.

我怎样才能阻止我这么做呢？”现在，我们拿出我们的进取心，我们把我们的内部和外部资源用于解决问题，整个事情就发生了变化。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, man.

哦，伙计。

That helps a lot.

这很有帮助。

Not just me.

不只是我。

I have to say, people not feeling motivated, people not being able to break a pattern that isn't serving them, whether or not it's action or inaction, is probably the most common question I get.

我不得不说，人们没有动力，人们无法打破不利于他们的模式，无论是采取行动还是不采取行动，这可能是我收到的最常见的问题。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's the most common theme.

这是最常见的主题。

It's probably the reason why podcasts like this can exist.

这可能就是这样的播客能够存在的原因。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I mean, I think people have a natural curiosity about the science and the intellectual aspects and neural circuits and hormones and all that kind of stuff, but I think ultimately, people want more agency over their behavior.

我的意思是，我认为人们对科学、智力方面、神经回路、激素以及所有类似的东西有着天生的好奇心，但我认为最终，人们希望对自己的行为有更多的代理权。

They want to feel that.

他们想要感受到那种感觉。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I think what you said is like blaring in the room, at least for me, that people don't like to be controlled.

我认为你所说的就像在房间里大声喧哗，至少对我来说，人们不喜欢被控制。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So much so that we know that we got kids to quit smoking back in the '90s, early 2000s, by advertisements of rich, old white men writhing their hands, cackling about the health problems that people are getting while they're getting rich.

以至于我们知道，早在 20 世纪 90 年代、2000 年代初，我们就通过广告让孩子们戒烟，广告中富有的白人老人扭动双手，咯咯地谈论人们在致富时遇到的健康问题。

That's what stopped teens from smoking.

这就是阻止青少年吸烟的原因。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right?

对吗？

It was, "You're not going to control me." It wasn't that they didn't like smoking.

那是，“你无法控制我。”这并不是说他们不喜欢吸烟。

Nicotine's incredibly reinforcing, right?

尼古丁的增强作用令人难以置信，对吗？

The moment that you have an enemy, you feel a sense of agency.

当你有敌人的那一刻，你就会感受到一种代理感。

You said no, you're on your own side.

你说不，你是站在你自己这边的。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So realizing one is being controlled-

所以意识到一个人正在被控制——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

I realize I'm just saying what you're saying, but I want to make sure this really resonates in my own mind and for the listeners.

我知道我只是在说你所说的，但我想确保这确实能在我自己的脑海中和听众中引起共鸣。

That's the essence of agency.

这就是代理的本质。

You have to be on your own side.

你必须站在自己一边。

And to get on your own side, it's helpful to not necessarily have an enemy, but to say, "Oh, this is all about my parents, and I'm going in the opposite direction in ways that are defeating me.

为了站在自己一边，不一定有敌人是有帮助的，但要说，“哦，这都是关于我父母的，而我正以打败我的方式走向相反的方向。

They're controlling me, even though I think I'm controlling me." Boom.

他们在控制我，尽管我认为是我在控制我自己。”繁荣。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Behavior changes.

行为改变。

Or, "Oh, shit, this is just like my mom," or just like my dad, or just like the environment I grew up in.

或者，“哦，糟糕，这就像我妈妈，”或者就像我爸爸，或者就像我长大的环境。

And now somebody can advocate for themselves.

现在有人可以为自己辩护。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I also see this in the media nowadays.

我现在也在媒体上看到了这一点。

I mean, so much of social media is about us-them.

我的意思是，很多社交媒体都是关于我们——他们的。

And gosh, people are perfectly happy, for understandable reasons, to be like, "You're not going to control me." We saw this during the pandemic.

天哪，人们非常高兴，出于可以理解的原因，就像“你不会控制我”。我们在疫情期间看到了这一点。

We see this at every level.

我们在各个层面都看到了这一点。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What is this human thing about not wanting to be controlled that, in this context, is very positive?

在这种情况下，不想被控制的人类特质是什么，这是非常积极的？

Right?

正确的？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There's something about the human primate brain-

人类灵长类动物的大脑有些东西——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

that we don't like to be controlled, and that sense of agency can blossom out of that.

我们不喜欢被控制，而这种代理感可以由此产生。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I think that's incredible.

我认为这太不可思议了。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yeah.

是的。

We don't want to think or know that someone or something is putting one over on us.

我们不想去想或知道有人或某事正在对我们进行攻击。

Humans don't want to be dupes.

人类不想被骗。

We don't like that.

我们不喜欢这样。

It makes us upset.

这让我们心烦意乱。

And here, the magic realization is that there is no enemy.

而在这里，神奇的认识是没有敌人。

That we can get in our own way.

我们可以用自己的方式去实现。

And who's most likely to thwart my efforts towards being healthier?

谁最有可能阻碍我变得更健康的努力？

It's absolutely me.

这绝对是我。

So I can get in my own way, but it doesn't mean I'm my enemy.

所以我可以按自己的方式行事，但这并不意味着我是我的敌人。

So if I do really, I want to be healthier and I want to get to the gym to be healthier, okay, who's standing in my way then?

所以如果我真的这么做了，我想要变得更健康，我想要去健身房变得更健康，好吧，那么谁在阻碍我呢？

It will be me then.

到时候就是我了。

But I say, well, why am I standing in my way?

但我说，好吧，为什么我要挡道呢？

I secretly hate myself and I want myself not to be healthy?

我暗暗恨自己，希望自己不健康？

No, it's not that.

不，不是那样的。

If I'm standing in my own way, there's a reason.

如果我坚持自己的立场，那是有原因的。

I really think that I have so much to do, and it's for other people, and it means more than me, so really, I don't think I deserve the time and energy it would take.

我真的认为我有很多事情要做，而且是为了其他人，而且比我更有意义，所以说实话，我认为我不值得花时间和精力。

I'm not going to spend it on myself.

我不会把它花在自己身上。

Maybe that's why I don't go.

也许这就是我不去的原因。

Or maybe I don't go because I'm trying to protect myself.

或者也许我不去是因为我想保护自己。

Because I'm worried the last couple times I tried, it didn't go well, and I felt worse, so I don't even want to start.

因为我担心前几次尝试并不顺利，而且感觉更糟糕，所以我什至不想开始。

So I'm standing in my own way because of fear of failure.

所以我因为害怕失败而坚持自己的方式。

There's a lot of reasons.

原因有很多。

There's many reasons we could be standing in our own way, but we're not our own enemy.

我们可能会因为很多原因而阻碍自己，但我们不是自己的敌人。

So the realization of why am I doing this?

那么意识到我为什么要这样做呢？

I don't have to do this, actually.

事实上我不必这样做。

There's one me, and I could say, well, if I really want to go to the gym, but I'm not going, I want to go and I don't want to go.

有一个我，我可以说，好吧，如果我真的想去健身房，但我不会去，我想去又不想去。

It must be true, or I'd be there.

这一定是真的，不然我就在那儿了。

Why is it that I don't want to go?

为什么我不想去？

Am I not worth the time and energy?

难道我不值得花时间和精力吗？

Maybe.

或许。

Do I think there are more important things to do?

我认为还有更重要的事情要做吗？

Really, I do really think that, and I'm not admitting it to myself.

真的，我确实这么认为，而且我自己也不承认。

Am I afraid that if I try, I'll fail?

我是否担心如果我尝试就会失败？

There's got to be a reason for that.

这一定是有原因的。

So let me get on the same page.

所以让我达成共识。

As I've often said, to just further the example, would be, "Hey, you get to decide if you go to the gym or not.

正如我经常说的，进一步举个例子，“嘿，你可以决定是否去健身房。

We just want you to be on the same page with yourself." You can decide not to if you say, "Actually, there are things that are bigger priorities for my time now.

我们只是希望你能与自己保持一致。”如果你说：“实际上，现在有些事情对我来说更重要。”

Someone else is sick.

别人生病了。

I'm taking care of that person.

我正在照顾那个人。

That is what I'm choosing now.

这就是我现在所选择的。

Okay, so I'm not going to go now," and the whole me decides that.

好吧，所以我现在不去。”我整个人都这么决定了。

But on the other side of this, when this drain on my time and energy is different, then I am going to go.

但另一方面，当我的时间和精力消耗有所不同时，我就会离开。

Now the person's on the same page, and they're not making themselves feel worse by wanting to go and not going.

现在，人们的想法是一致的，他们不会因为想去却又不去而让自己感觉更糟。

Or I might say, "I really do want to go, but I know I'm standing in my own way because I'm afraid I'll fail." Okay, and then maybe I get upset.

或者我可能会说，“我真的很想去，但我知道我挡住了自己的路，因为我担心我会失败。”好吧，然后也许我会感到不安。

The last eight times I tried, I failed.

我过去八次尝试都失败了。

Now we're really digging where the money's at.

现在我们正在真正挖掘资金的去向。

Because we go and look and say, "Okay, you're protecting yourself.

因为我们会去看并说：“好吧，你正在保护自己。

How do we try and set you up for success so you'll want to go forward this time because you'll see that it's different from the other times, and you won't just be repeating something that just made you feel bad?" So that's how we get all our arrows pointing in the same direction.

我们如何努力让你为成功做好准备，这样你这次就会想要继续前进，因为你会发现它与其他时候不同，并且你不会只是重复那些让你感觉不好的事情？”这就是我们如何让所有箭头指向同一个方向。

We realize there is no enemy here.

我们意识到这里没有敌人。

There is me standing in my own way, but that's okay.

我以自己的方式行事，但没关系。

I can look at that, and I can figure that out.

我可以看看，我可以弄清楚。

And now we're at that simple goodness principle where we're all on the same page with ourselves, and we accomplish our goals.

现在我们遵循简单的善良原则，我们都与自己意见一致，并且我们实现了我们的目标。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We wouldn't wish trauma on anybody, but how is it then that people who had reasonably healthy or trauma-free childhoods, how do they operate in the world?

我们不希望任何人受到创伤，但是那些拥有相当健康或没有创伤童年的人，他们如何在世界上运作呢？

Are they moving toward things from a genuine place of curiosity, and they're not pushing off anything in this idyllic example?

他们是否出于真正的好奇心而走向事物，并且在这个田园诗般的例子中他们没有推迟任何事情？

That they're not countering a childhood example.

他们并不是在反驳童年的例子。

Does that represent the ultimate goal that we're moving towards things because we want them, and we're not resisting anything, nor are we copying bad patterns from our childhood?

这是否代表了我们朝着某些事物前进的最终目标，因为我们想要它们，并且我们没有抵制任何事物，也没有复制童年时的不良模式？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yes, in the sense that I think that's what I would map to living intentionally.

是的，从某种意义上说，我认为这就是我所描绘的有意识的生活。

To being as self-aware as we can be while also realizing we can't be completely self-aware, and then living intentionally.

尽可能地有自我意识，同时也意识到我们不能完全有自我意识，然后有意识地生活。

So yes, that's what we're trying to get to.

所以，是的，这就是我们正在努力实现的目标。

And the presence of trauma, of real trauma that overwhelms our coping skills and leaves our brain function different going forward, it does make it harder to achieve these things, which is why we want to look at trauma if there are traumas in our lives and how they may have changed us, but it doesn't prevent that.

创伤的存在，真正的创伤压垮了我们的应对技巧，让我们的大脑功能变得不同，它确实使实现这些目标变得更加困难，这就是为什么我们想要看看创伤，如果我们的生活中存在创伤，以及它们如何改变我们，但这并不能阻止这一点。

People can have significant traumas and still be on this path and have some insight into how the trauma is affecting them and even insight that the trauma needs more work, maybe, to really get our arms around it.

人们可能遭受过严重的创伤，但仍然走在这条道路上，并且对创伤如何影响他们有一些洞察力，甚至洞察到创伤可能需要更多的工作，才能真正得到我们的拥抱。

But that person can still get there.

但那个人仍然可以到达那里。

Likewise, someone who hasn't had trauma might have real difficulty getting there.

同样，没有受过创伤的人可能很难到达那里。

If I haven't had major trauma, but just circumstances or my own maybe overly ambitious with not enough time and energy, hey, I did try and get to the gym four or five times, and it didn't work out, and I really do feel down on myself, and it's not linked to any prior trauma.

如果我没有遭受重大创伤，但只是环境或我自己的野心太大，没有足够的时间和精力，嘿，我确实尝试去健身房四五次，但没有成功，我真的对自己感到沮丧，这与之前的任何创伤无关。

It's just I've gotten in this cycle, and every time I think about being healthier, now I'm telling myself, "Oh, you'll never be able to do it," or, "You messed it up three times." And so I'm inadvertently making it harder for myself.

只是我已经陷入了这个循环，每当我想到变得更健康时，我现在就告诉自己，“哦，你永远做不到”，或者“你已经搞砸了三次了。”所以我无意中让自己变得更加困难。

And without any preexisting trauma, that person can end up having much more trouble than someone who does have preexisting trauma.

如果没有任何先前存在的创伤，这个人最终可能会比那些有先前存在创伤的人遇到更多的麻烦。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Or how do you respond to the words, "I get tired just thinking about it"?

或者你如何回应“光是想想就觉得累”这句话？

Like something that would be good for somebody.

就像对某人有好处的东西一样。

"I get tired just thinking about it," and it involves energy.

“光是想想就累了”，这涉及到能量。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm not giving you a very full picture, but I'm guessing you've heard those words before.

我没有给你一个非常全面的描述，但我猜你以前听过这些话。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Oh, I want to understand a lot more about that.

哦，我想了解更多。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Because what that tells me is there's a lot of brain space and a lot of energy that's taken up in the thinking of it.

因为这告诉我，思考它需要大量的大脑空间和大量的能量。

So for a lot of people, they get so tired of thinking about trying to go to the gym because thinking about trying to go to the gym takes more energy from them than actually being there.

因此，对于很多人来说，他们厌倦了去健身房，因为思考去健身房比实际去健身房消耗更多的能量。

Because it's running around in their head how they failed and how bad they're going to feel and how they really want to do this, and maybe they will, and maybe they won't, and there's so much going on inside of them that they're making something very complicated.

因为他们的脑海里盘旋着他们是如何失败的，他们会感觉多么糟糕，以及他们真的想这么做，也许他们会，也许他们不会，而且他们内心发生了太多事情，他们正在把事情变得非常复杂。

So I want to understand why all that energy inside.

所以我想了解为什么里面有那么多能量。

And is there a way that we can simplify that?

有没有一种方法可以简化这个过程？

That's a marker that there's something going on that we want to be able to get at because it's not the healthiest process to say that there's a lot of internal turmoil about something that almost certainly can be better understood and simplified.

这是一个标志，表明正在发生一些我们希望能够了解的事情，因为这不是最健康的过程，因为说一些几乎肯定可以更好地理解和简化的事情存在很多内部混乱。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So that statement represents 10 mental workouts that is exhausting them.

所以这句话代表了 10 次让他们筋疲力尽的心理锻炼。

At least that's the sense it might give you.

至少这是它可能给你的感觉。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

With no improvement in physical health.

身体健康状况没有任何改善。

So the 10 mental workouts just wasted that energy.

所以 10 次心理锻炼只是浪费了这些能量。

There is no improvement in physical health.

身体健康没有任何改善。

Let's take those 10 mental workouts and figure out how can we turn that into one physical workout?

让我们看看这 10 项心理锻炼，看看如何将其转化为一项身体锻炼？

That person's going to feel a lot better physically and mentally.

那个人的身体和精神都会感觉好多了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I want to table a couple of common statements about the mind and psychology I'm perfectly willing to accept that they're true, but I have a feeling they're at least not entirely true.

我想列出一些关于思想和心理学的常见陈述，我完全愿意接受它们是正确的，但我有一种感觉，它们至少不完全正确。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Okay.

好的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

One is, however you talk to others, that's also how you talk to yourself.

一是，无论你如何与他人交谈，你也是如何与自己交谈。

Is this just nonsense?

这只是废话吗？

There's some people that are very harsh with other people.

有些人对其他人非常严厉。

Are they walking around being harsh to themselves, or are they just so peaceful in there and they're externalizing it all?

他们是否四处走动对自己很严酷，或者他们只是在那里如此平静而将这一切外化？

I had a former colleague, let's just keep him anonymous, a former colleague, and he used to say, "I don't get stressed.

我有一位前同事，我们就让他匿名吧，一位前同事，他常常说：“我没有压力。

I give stress."

我给人压力。”

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That feels true to me.

这对我来说是真实的。

He gave up all his cards by telling me that.

他告诉我这件事后就放弃了所有的底牌。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So I was grateful for that statement.

所以我很感激这句话。

But he was very proud of it.

但他对此感到非常自豪。

He's like, "I don't get stressed.

他说：“我没有压力。

I give stress." And I thought, I bet you he's pretty stressed in there.

我给人压力。”我想，我敢打赌他在那里压力很大。

And then I realized, I don't know what the hell's going on in there.

然后我意识到，我不知道里面到底发生了什么。

Maybe he's just absolutely right.

也许他是完全正确的。

So can we make that assumption that how people treat others is really how they treat themselves?

那么我们是否可以假设人们对待他人的方式实际上就是他们对待自己的方式？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

No.

不。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Sometimes that may be true, but sometimes that may not be true.

有时这可能是真的，但有时这可能不是真的。

So this statement has no validity.

所以这个说法没有任何效力。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Maybe yes, maybe no. You have to look at the person and look at the situation.

也许是，也许不是。要看人，要看情况。

For most people, when there's a difference between the two, it is not the person who, say, is externalizing all that stress, giving everybody stress, but they feel calm inside.

对于大多数人来说，当两者之间存在差异时，并不是那个人将所有压力外化，给每个人带来压力，而是他们内心感到平静。

That is not a healthy way to be, and there's something going on there that's different.

这不是一种健康的生活方式，而且那里正在发生一些不同的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

That is an issue that warrants really looking at and addressing.

这是一个值得认真研究和解决的问题。

There's a problem there.

那里有问题。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

For most people, if it's different, it's the opposite, where people are treating others much, much better than they're treating themselves, and they may say, "Well, that's okay.

对于大多数人来说，如果不同的话，那就是相反的，人们对待别人比对待自己好得多，他们可能会说，“好吧，没关系。

Maybe we each made a mistake, and I get it.

也许我们每个人都犯了一个错误，我明白了。

Everyone makes mistakes." I may say that to you, but then go, "What's wrong with me?" Or I maybe act very differently inside.

每个人都会犯错误。”我可能会对你这么说，但然后问：“我怎么了？”或者我内心的行为可能非常不同。

And that's mostly what good people do, is we'll give other people a kind word or a benefit of the doubt, but we get very harsh, and our language and our tone inside of ourselves can be very different.

这就是好人所做的大部分事情，我们会给别人一句善意的话语或无罪推论，但我们会变得非常严厉，我们的语言和我们内心的语气可能会非常不同。

And this idea of if you're going to make yourself special, don't make yourself special in a negative way.

如果你想让自己变得特别，就不要以消极的方式让自己变得特别。

It's partly in jest, but it is saying for most of us who are making ourselves special, it is in a negative way.

这在一定程度上是开玩笑，但对于我们大多数让自己与众不同的人来说，这是一种消极的方式。

Other people can get a pass about something.

其他人可以获得某件事的通行证。

They made an honest mistake, or we'll give them another chance, whatever it may be.

他们犯了无心的错误，否则我们会再给他们一次机会，无论是什么。

But for us, we may use much harsher language.

但对我们来说，我们可能会使用更严厉的语言。

What's wrong with me?

我怎么了？

I'm an idiot, and I messed that up again.

我真是个白痴，我又搞砸了。

And there's a lot of that going on inside of us.

我们内心发生了很多这样的事情。

So, no. If we're treating other people kindly, it may be that we're treating ourselves kindly inside, but that is certainly not a given.

所以，不。如果我们善待别人，我们内心也可能善待自己，但这肯定不是理所当然的。

And if we're being unkind to other people, that most of the time, there is some real turmoil, and that person is not feeling okay inside.

如果我们对其他人不友善，那么大多数时候，就会出现一些真正的混乱，那个人内心感觉不太好。

The person who's making other people unhappy and they themselves feel okay, that's a different kind of problem, and it's not a common one.

一个人让别人不开心，而他们自己却感觉很好，这是另一种问题，而且不是常见的问题。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In your book, you talk about intrusive thoughts and things that people can do to deal with intrusive thoughts.

在您的书中，您谈到了侵入性想法以及人们可以采取的措施来处理侵入性想法。

If you wouldn't mind, could you give us a few examples of things that people can do to deal with intrusive thoughts?

如果您不介意的话，您能给我们举几个人们可以采取的措施来应对侵入性想法的例子吗？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Well, the first is we have to identify it, and there are people who have intrusive thoughts, something they may say to themselves hundreds of times a day, and they're not aware of it until they stop and think, what am I saying to myself over and over again?

嗯，首先我们必须识别它，有些人有侵入性想法，他们可能每天对自己说数百次，直到他们停下来思考，我一遍又一遍地对自己说了什么？

Or what's running around?

或者说有什么东西在跑来跑去？

Being aware of our self-talk.

意识到我们的自言自语。

The idea that we're not safe, or worried about one's children and safety, or worried about I'm going to get fired, or there's not going to be enough.

我们不安全的想法，或者担心孩子和安全，或者担心我会被解雇，或者不够。

These things can come to us over and over again without us being aware of it.

这些事情会一次又一次地出现在我们身上，而我们却浑然不觉。

So the first thing is we must be aware, and it may sound strange to say we could say something to ourselves hundreds of times over and not be aware of it, but absolutely that happens.

所以第一件事是我们必须意识到，说我们可以对自己说上百遍某件事却没有意识到这一点可能听起来很奇怪，但这种情况绝对会发生。

So we have to be curious.

所以我们必须保持好奇心。

Well, what is it that I'm saying to myself in these quiet moments, and then what purpose is it serving?

好吧，在这些安静的时刻我对自己说的是什么呢？那么它有什么作用呢？

So if I keep telling myself that nothing's going to be okay, why am I saying that?

所以，如果我一直告诉自己一切都不会好起来，那我为什么要这么说呢？

Am I so afraid that nothing's going to be okay that I'm trying to save myself from the shock of nothing being okay?

我是否如此害怕一切都会好起来，以至于我试图将自己从一切都不好的震惊中拯救出来？

Maybe.

或许。

Maybe that's going on.

也许这就是正在发生的事情。

Am I just so afraid about something?

难道我就是这么害怕某事吗？

Something happened in the past.

过去发生过一些事情。

Someone was hurt, or there was a loss, and now the intrusive thoughts tell me that things can't be okay.

有人受伤了，或者有损失，现在侵入性的想法告诉我事情不可能好起来。

But what it's telling me is I haven't processed that loss.

但它告诉我的是我还没有处理那个损失。

There is going to be a meaning.

会有一个意义。

There is a meaning to intrusive thoughts.

侵入性想法是有其意义的。

There always is.

总是有的。

So we want to recognize them, we want to look for that meaning, and then there are strategies of what we can do, and they can range from thought redirection.

所以我们想要认识它们，我们想要寻找它们的意义，然后我们就可以采取一些策略，它们的范围可以包括思想重定向。

Sometimes we think something because we're thinking it over and over again, and if we thought redirect, it gives us greater control.

有时我们思考某件事是因为我们一遍又一遍地思考它，如果我们思考重定向，它会给我们更大的控制权。

Sometimes we diffuse some of the energy in it by understanding why we're thinking that thing and maybe taking measures.

有时，我们通过理解为什么我们会想到那件事并采取措施来分散其中的一些能量。

If I'm worried that I'm not safe and things aren't going to be okay, maybe I'm letting myself be in an unsafe situation, and I need to change that situation.

如果我担心自己不安全并且事情不会好起来，也许我让自己处于不安全的境地，我需要改变这种情况。

This is a place sometimes medicines can help.

有时药物可以提供帮助。

So there are a lot of things that we can bring to bear, but we first have to recognize that they're happening.

因此，我们可以采取很多措施，但我们首先必须认识到它们正在发生。

Then running countercurrent to modern mental health, oftentimes, we have to actually understand why if we want that to change for the better, if we want to really get into the engine and figure it out instead of just trying to polish the hood and not look at where that problem is coming from.

然后，与现代心理健康背道而驰的是，我们常常必须真正理解为什么，如果我们希望这种情况变得更好，如果我们想真正进入引擎并找出答案，而不是仅仅试图擦亮引擎盖而不看看问题来自哪里。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In keeping with commonly discussed themes out in the world that I question, are our dreams informative, and is there anything that we can know about ourselves, like patterns of thinking when we're awake, that make our dreams more informative?

与我所质疑的世界上普遍讨论的主题一致，我们的梦是否提供了丰富的信息？我们是否可以了解自己的任何信息，例如我们醒着时的思维模式，使我们的梦提供更多信息？

For example, if I tend to think in analogy or parallel construction, and will the content of my dreams be more meaningful to me to understand through the lens of analogy or parallel construction?

例如，如果我倾向于用类比或平行结构来思考，通过类比或平行结构的镜头来理解我的梦的内容对我来说会更有意义吗？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

I'm not sure about the last point.

我不确定最后一点。

I don't know.

我不知道。

I just don't know, and my clinical experience has been people's dreams can have a lot of meaning, regardless of what kind of thinker they are.

我只是不知道，我的临床经验是人们的梦想可以有很多意义，无论他们是什么样的思想家。

So someone who might be, for example, a very concrete thinker may have dreams that are really telling us a lot, because what the unconscious mind wants to bring to the surface doesn't have a lot of room to do that, because that person is thinking concretely, and they're not thinking in analogies or parallel processes, and they're not opening up their mind that way.

例如，一个非常具体的思考者可能会做梦，这些梦确实告诉了我们很多事情，因为潜意识想要表达的东西没有太多空间去做，因为那个人正在具体地思考，他们没有以类比或并行的过程思考，他们也没有以这种方式开放他们的思想。

So the dream is expressing something there's no other way of getting to the surface.

所以梦正在表达一些没有其他方式可以表达出来的东西。

Or it may be people who are very expressive and cultivate routes of expression have informative dreams.

或者，那些非常善于表达并培养表达方式的人可能会拥有内容丰富的梦想。

I think the one factor is being curious about ourselves.

我认为其中一个因素就是对我们自己感到好奇。

Because then we tend to remember more what went on inside of us.

因为那时我们往往会记住更多我们内心发生的事情。

We tend to then either think through enough or write down and become curious about ourselves.

然后我们倾向于要么充分思考，要么写下来并对自己感到好奇。

So I think being curious about what our brains are telling us during sleep can be very helpful.

所以我认为对我们的大脑在睡眠期间告诉我们什么感到好奇是非常有帮助的。

I haven't known of another quality or characteristic of a person that really points strongly one way or another.

我还不知道一个人还有哪一种品质或特征能真正以某种方式强烈地表明这一点。

And sometimes dreams don't have meaning, or they don't have meaning we can clearly discern.

有时梦没有意义，或者没有我们可以清楚辨别的意义。

So we have to be careful, we have to be respectful of how complex our minds are, and sometimes we're looking to read something in to a dream, or we want to see it as a marker along the path where our thought is going.

所以我们必须小心，我们必须尊重我们的思想有多复杂，有时我们希望在梦中读到一些东西，或者我们想把它看作是我们思想前进道路上的一个标记。

So we have to be very careful and very levelheaded.

所以我们必须非常小心、非常冷静。

But if we approach that way, it can be remarkable, amazing what dreams can sometimes tell us and how something can come out allegorically in a person that is speaking to events that have unfolded across years in a large family system, and you find, in a very simple way, an allegorical way, the brain is capturing that.

但如果我们以这种方式对待，梦有时能告诉我们什么，以及如何在一个人身上寓言地讲述一个大家庭系统中多年来所发生的事件，你会发现，大脑正在以一种非常简单的方式，一种寓言的方式捕捉到这些东西，这可能是令人惊奇的。

So curiosity about ourselves and our dreams can really give us a lot of insight, but we have to be careful about it and be respectful of our own complexity.

因此，对自己和梦想的好奇心确实可以给我们带来很多洞察力，但我们必须对此保持谨慎并尊重我们自己的复杂性。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's an unfortunate reality, but tap water often contains contaminants that negatively impact our health.

这是一个不幸的现实，但自来水通常含有对我们的健康产生负面影响的污染物。

In fact, a 2020 study by the Environmental Working Group estimated that more than 200 million Americans are exposed to PFAS chemicals, also known as forever chemicals, through drinking of tap water.

事实上，环境工作组 2020 年的一项研究估计，超过 2 亿美国人通过饮用自来水接触到 PFAS 化学物质（也称为永久化学物质）。

These forever chemicals are linked to serious health issues such as hormone disruption, gut microbiome disruption, fertility issues, and many other health problems.

这些永久性化学物质与严重的健康问题有关，例如激素紊乱、肠道微生物组破坏、生育问题和许多其他健康问题。

The Environmental Working Group has also shown that over 122 million Americans drink tap water with high levels of chemicals known to cause cancer.

环境工作组还表明，超过 1.22 亿美国人饮用的自来水含有大量已知致癌化学物质。

It's for all these reasons that I'm thrilled to have Rorra as a sponsor of this podcast.

出于所有这些原因，我很高兴 Rorra 作为这个播客的赞助商。

I've been using the Rorra countertop system for almost a year now.

我使用 Rorra 台面系统已经快一年了。

Rorra's filtration technology removes harmful substances, including endocrine disruptors and disinfection byproducts, while preserving beneficial minerals like magnesium and calcium.

Rorra 的过滤技术可去除有害物质，包括内分泌干扰物和消毒副产物，同时保留镁和钙等有益矿物质。

It requires no installation or plumbing, it's built from medical-grade stainless steel, and its sleek design fits beautifully on your countertop.

它不需要安装或管道，由医用级不锈钢制成，其时尚的设计非常适合您的台面。

In fact, I consider it a welcome addition to my kitchen.

事实上，我认为它对我的厨房来说是一个受欢迎的补充。

It looks great, and the water is delicious.

看起来很棒，水也很美味。

If you'd like to try Rorra, you can go to rorra.com/huberman and get an exclusive discount.

如果您想尝试 Rorra，可以访问 rorra.com/huberman 并获得独家折扣。

Again, that's Rorra, R-O-R-R-A.com/huberman.

再说一次，那是 Rorra，R-O-R-R-A.com/huberman。

In your previous book on trauma and in our previous discussions about trauma, you've said that anxiety, trauma, stress doesn't know the clock or the calendar.

在你之前关于创伤的书中以及我们之前关于创伤的讨论中，你说过焦虑、创伤、压力不知道时钟或日历。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Time is erased.

时间被抹去了。

The negative feelings that one feels in those states seems like it's going to go on forever, which is why it's so scary.

人们在这些状态下感受到的负面情绪似乎会永远持续下去，这就是为什么它如此可怕。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It sort of suggests that the way that we thread ourselves through our life is by kind of segmenting time.

这在某种程度上表明，我们在生活中穿行的方式是通过分割时间来实现的。

Like that was then, this is now.

过去是这样，现在也是这样。

That's a healthy version, that the past doesn't necessarily dictate the present, the present doesn't necessarily dictate the future.

这是一个健康的版本，过去不一定决定现在，现在也不一定决定未来。

But I think for many people, the fear, the anxiety they feel on a daily basis, it is so uncomfortable because in those states, we can't imagine feeling any differently, but we cognitively know that this is just a state.

但我认为对很多人来说，他们每天感受到的恐惧和焦虑是非常不舒服的，因为在这些状态下，我们无法想象有什么不同的感觉，但我们在认知上知道这只是一种状态。

It's just a thing.

这只是一件事。

What sorts of tools do you offer people to try and anchor themselves in those states?

您为人们提供哪些工具来尝试将自己固定在这些状态？

Should they just feel them, perhaps?

也许他们应该只是感觉一下？

Just let them pass through?

就让他们过去吗？

Or is it useful, perhaps, for them to anchor to some sort of thing outside the experience so that they don't get carried by it, to get out of the stress?

或者，对他们来说，锚定在体验之外的某种事物上，这样他们就不会被它拖累，从而摆脱压力，这可能有用吗？

And I think what I'm trying to do here is get to a fundamental question.

我认为我在这里想做的是解决一个基本问题。

Feel your feelings, or be careful of feelings that put you out of a sense of time passage, because those tend to be dangerous feelings.

感受你的感受，或者小心那些让你失去时间流逝感的感受，因为这些往往是危险的感受。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

It has to start with understanding.

这必须从理解开始。

We have to be able to shine the light everywhere and look at what's true.

我们必须能够将光照射到各处并看到真相。

So as I found myself saying many times, you can say, "That was then, this is now," but your limbic system doesn't care.

因此，正如我多次说过的那样，你可以说，“那是过去，这是现在”，但你的边缘系统并不关心。

And our limbic system are the emotion systems in us.

我们的边缘系统就是我们的情感系统。

So we can say, "Well, the past is in the past, so I'm going to put it in the past." We can say that, but we're saying that through logical mechanisms in us.

所以我们可以说，“好吧，过去的事情已经过去了，所以我要把它放在过去了。”我们可以这么说，但我们是通过我们内在的逻辑机制来这么说的。

So if there's logical mechanisms and limbic or emotion mechanisms, it's a simplification, but we can look at the brain that way and say, "Well, the logic mechanisms are telling me that, and they're declaring that it's true because the clock says that it's in the past." But the limbic, the emotion systems, have a very different reality.

因此，如果存在逻辑机制和边缘或情感机制，那就是一种简化，但我们可以这样看大脑并说：“好吧，逻辑机制告诉我这一点，他们宣布这是真的，因为时钟说那是过去的事情。”但边缘系统、情感系统却有着截然不同的现实。

They don't see it that way.

他们不这么看。

They don't know that there's a clock or the calendar.

他们不知道有时钟或日历。

So it's not that that was then, this is now.

所以，这不是过去，而是现在。

A trigger in the now can make then Now.

现在的触发器可以创造“现在”。

So we want to be aware of the emotions that are going on inside of us and the strong emotional states that we can get into, because they're telling us something.

因此，我们想要意识到我们内心正在发生的情绪以及我们可能进入的强烈情绪状态，因为它们正在告诉我们一些事情。

If something happens just in going through life, and something that might even seem small from the outside, but I'm triggered or I'm cued, in a way, to be in a very deep emotional state of fear or vulnerability, and I can map that to like I felt when X happened, or like I felt 20 years ago when this happened.

如果生活中发生了一些事情，甚至从外面看起来很小的事情，但在某种程度上，我被触发或被暗示，处于一种非常深刻的恐惧或脆弱的情绪状态，我可以将其映射到我在 X 发生时的感受，或者像 20 年前发生这件事时我的感受。

That's telling me something.

这告诉了我一些事情。

It's telling me time is not like a steel rod going in one direction.

它告诉我时间并不像一根钢棒朝一个方向移动。

That's the logic systems.

这就是逻辑系统。

In the limbic systems, it's like a string.

在边缘系统中，它就像一根绳子。

And something just made me feel right now exactly the way.

有些事让我现在就有这样的感觉。

It took the string from now to this thing that happened, say, 10 years ago, and it put the two parts of the string together.

它将绳子从现在带到了十年前发生的事情，并将绳子的两部分放在一起。

That's real for me, and it's telling me there is emotion in something from that time that I have not worked through.

这对我来说是真实的，它告诉我，从那时起，我还没有经历过一些情感。

Was I aware of that?

我知道吗？

Am I kind of aware of it, but I'm pushing it down under the surface?

我是否意识到了这一点，但我把它压到了表面之下？

If I'm having strong emotions where I'm lost in the past while in the present, it's a marker of something.

如果我有强烈的情绪，让我迷失在过去而现在，这就是某些事情的标志。

And very often, we get afraid of that.

很多时候，我们对此感到害怕。

We turn away from it.

我们转身远离它。

We're worried that it's telling us we're not healthy, or we're worried we're going to go crazy.

我们担心它告诉我们我们不健康，或者我们担心我们会发疯。

These are the things that people say when this happens.

这些是人们在发生这种情况时所说的话。

And so for us to know, whoa, that is not what's happening.

所以我们知道，哇，事实并非如此。

This is normal and human.

这是正常的、人性的。

This is what will happen.

这就是将会发生的事情。

These emotion systems that pay very strong attention to negative things, to negative emotions, fear and loss and terror and despair inside of us, they don't know the clock or the calendar.

这些情绪系统非常关注我们内心的负面事物、负面情绪、恐惧、失落、恐怖和绝望，它们不知道时钟或日历。

So they're going to bring to our present things from our past that are then markers of saying, "Go dig there, because that is not just in the past.

所以他们会把过去的东西带到我们现在，这些东西当时是说，“去那里挖掘，因为那不仅仅是过去。

Emotionally, it is still in your present."

从情感上来说，它仍然存在于你的当下。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

At this point in time, what do you think is the most efficient way to root out and heal childhood traumas?

此时此刻，您认为根除和治愈童年创伤的最有效方法是什么？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Bringing compassionate curiosity to ourselves, where we just look at our past and we look at it without sort of having a dog in the fight, so to speak.

可以说，我们给自己带来富有同情心的好奇心，只是回顾我们的过去，而不是像狗一样在战斗。

Where I don't have to see it a certain way.

我不必以某种方式看待它。

I don't have to look at this and sometimes people will say they have to make it less bad than it was because they feel otherwise they won't be okay if they see all that was bad in it.

我不必看这个，有时人们会说他们必须让它变得不那么糟糕，因为他们觉得否则如果他们看到其中所有的不好，他们就不会好起来。

Others might feel they have to look at the worst of it because they're trying to anchor to things in their life now that they're not happy with and why that might be.

其他人可能觉得他们必须看到最坏的情况，因为他们现在正试图锚定生活中那些他们不满意的事情以及为什么会这样。

So what it ends up doing is it brings so much emotion into it that we can't look in a way that has equanimity.

所以它最终带来的结果是它给它带来了太多的情感，以至于我们无法以平静的方式看待它。

Because we're living in the emotion.

因为我们都活在情感里。

Now, we can't feel no emotion if we're thinking about difficult things that have happened to us, but to be able to have that observation of self, of what is going on inside of me, what do I feel about it, where does my own mind want to go?

现在，如果我们在思考发生在我们身上的困难事情，我们就不能没有任何情感，而是能够观察自我，观察我内心正在发生的事情，我对此有何感受，我自己的思想想去哪里？

Do I want to minimize it?

我想最小化它吗？

Do I want to take it and dial it up so that it'll explain why I did X or why I didn't do Y?

我是否想要拿起它并拨打它，以便它解释为什么我做了 X 或为什么我没有做 Y？

So we're trying to observe our own motivations as we look at our childhood, and if we can gain more equanimity that way, then we can come to understanding this idea that we don't have to be afraid to go and do that.

因此，当我们回顾自己的童年时，我们会尝试观察自己的动机，如果我们能够通过这种方式获得更多的平静，那么我们就能理解这样的想法：我们不必害怕去这样做。

And to say, "Okay, I can look at this and I see this part of my childhood or this person in my childhood, that wasn't good or wasn't okay or maybe it was even abusive, it was wrong." We can look at that and say, "Okay, what am I going to do with that now?

并说，“好吧，我可以看看这个，我看到我童年的这一部分或我童年的这个人，那不好或不好，或者甚至可能是虐待，这是错误的。”我们可以看着它并说：“好吧，我现在要用它做什么？

It doesn't define who I am.

它并没有定义我是谁。

It doesn't determine any one single thing about me." If I can look at it with a calmness of mind, and I can see the realness of how it's affected me, now I start talking about malleability, kind of where we started with, malleability of ourselves and how we see ourselves, then I can start to make progress.

它并不能决定我的任何一件事。”如果我能以平静的心态看待它，我能看到它如何影响我的真实情况，现在我开始谈论可塑性，我们从哪里开始，我们自己的可塑性以及我们如何看待自己，那么我就可以开始取得进步。

But we have to be able to look at ourselves, and very often, we just don't want to do that because we don't bring compassion.

但我们必须能够审视自己，很多时候，我们只是不想这样做，因为我们没有带来同情心。

We bring fear and criticism.

我们带来恐惧和批评。

But if we can just observe ourselves, now we can get in touch with, what did happen in childhood?

但如果我们能够观察自己，现在我们就能接触到，童年发生了什么？

What am I making of that now?

我现在对此有何看法？

And then now maybe I might want to put those words outside of me in writing or in speech, or I might want to talk to a trusted other, or I might want to see a therapist about it.

然后现在也许我可能想以书面或演讲的方式将这些话放在我的脑海之外，或者我可能想与值得信赖的其他人交谈，或者我可能想就此去看治疗师。

So it's taking the strong emotion that can keep us from understanding, which can get very complicated.

因此，强烈的情感会阻碍我们理解，这可能会变得非常复杂。

If we bring fear to our past, we're going to see it through the lens of fear.

如果我们把恐惧带入我们的过去，我们就会通过恐惧的视角来看待它。

If I know I can look at my past and I don't have to be afraid, even if it raises difficult emotion in me, I'm much more likely to keep a calm presence of mind and then to learn some things about myself.

如果我知道我可以回顾我的过去，我就不必害怕，即使它在我心中引发了困难的情绪，我也更有可能保持冷静的心态，然后了解一些关于自己的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Do you think that people look back and think about good things that happen to them often enough?

你认为人们经常回顾并思考发生在他们身上的好事吗？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

No. It's just a clear no. Not often enough, the answer then is no. We tend to have a bias in us towards the negative, and we don't stop and think, "Hey, I did that really well." Or, "That didn't come out the way I wanted it to, but I learned from it." Or, "It didn't come out the way I wanted it to, but I really tried." And we tend not to do that, and this bias towards the negative means we then start making the stories of ourselves about the negative.

不，这只是明确的不。不够频繁，答案是否定的。我们往往对消极有偏见，我们不会停下来想，“嘿，我做得很好。”或者，“这并没有按照我想要的方式发展，但我从中吸取了教训。”或者，“它没有按照我想要的方式出现，但我真的尽力了。”我们往往不会这样做，而这种对负面事物的偏见意味着我们开始讲述自己关于负面事物的故事。

Or we feel like, well, if I look at what I've done right, what's gone right in my life, or what is going right, then I'll get complacent or what is there to be gained from that?

或者我们觉得，好吧，如果我看看我做对的事情，生活中做对的事情，或者进展顺利的事情，那么我会变得自满，或者从中能得到什么？

I'm going to look at what's not the way I want it to be.

我要看看有什么不是我想要的。

And really, quite the opposite is true.

事实上，事实恰恰相反。

If we're looking at what's gone well in our life, at our successes, and even things that weren't successes, maybe from the outside, but hey, I grew, I learned something.

如果我们关注生活中进展顺利的事情、成功的事情，甚至不成功的事情，也许是从外部来看，但是嘿，我成长了，我学到了一些东西。

The school of hard knocks taught me something.

学校的艰苦经历教会了我一些东西。

Then we are bolstering ourselves.

那我们就自强吧。

We're empowering ourselves by doing that.

我们通过这样做来增强自己的力量。

So no, we should all do a lot more of that, and we wouldn't become complacent.

所以不，我们都应该做更多这样的事情，我们不会自满。

We would become happier, healthier, more effective in our lives.

我们的生活会变得更快乐、更健康、更高效。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I think when we talk about looking backward, most of us, including myself, just kind of reflexively go to, okay, my family growing up, or elementary school, middle school, high school, so on.

我想，当我们谈论回顾过去时，我们大多数人，包括我自己，都会条件反射地回到我的家庭成长过程，或者小学、初中、高中等等。

I have a colleague from the past, Larry Squire, is a kind of a luminary in the field of memory, and worked out a lot of stuff about human hippocampus.

我以前有一位同事，拉里·斯奎尔（Larry Squire），他是记忆领域的杰出人物，研究出了很多关于人类海马体的东西。

And when I was visiting UC San Diego some years ago, there were a bunch of photos On his office wall.

几年前，当我访问加州大学圣地亚哥分校时，他办公室的墙上挂着一堆照片。

I was like, "Oh, cool." I was looking at it from meetings and things.

我当时想，“哦，太酷了。”我是通过会议和其他事情来看待它的。

I figure if they're on his wall, I'm allowed to look at them.

我想如果它们挂在他的墙上，我就可以看它们。

So I'm probing around, "Oh, there's so-and-so." And he said, "Having photographs on your wall of times that were really good is very good for your adult memory, and it cues up emotional states for you."

所以我四处打听，“哦，有某某。”他说：“在你的墙上挂上那些非常美好的时光的照片对你成年后的记忆非常有帮助，而且它会提示你的情绪状态。”

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And this is where it got interesting because he studied explicit and implicit memory.

这就是有趣的地方，因为他研究了外显记忆和内隐记忆。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The ones that we're aware of versus the ones we're not aware of, just to be clear to people.

我们知道的与我们不知道的，只是为了让人们清楚。

And he said, "Even if you don't look at them deliberately each day, when walking past them, if you have some implicit understanding about what those are, you're surrounding yourself with positive memories."

他说，“即使你每天不刻意地看着它们，当你走过它们时，如果你对它们有一些隐含的理解，你就会被积极的记忆包围。”

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I thought, that's pretty cool, and he's not just somebody saying this, right?

我想，这太酷了，而且他不仅仅是一个这么说的人，对吧？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This wasn't some-

这不是什么——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

just thing thrown out into the world.

只是被扔到世界上的东西。

This is arguably one of the people who knows more about human memory structure function than anybody-

这可以说是比任何人都更了解人类记忆结构功能的人之一——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Wow

哇

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

in the last 200 years or so.

在过去200年左右的时间里。

I thought that's cool.

我觉得这很酷。

And so I said, "So it should be parties, it should be..." And he just said, "Just things and people and experiences that you liked."

所以我说，“所以应该是聚会，应该是……”他只是说，“就是你喜欢的事情、人和经历。”

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You just put them up.

你只是把它们放上去。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I said, "Do you find yourself looking at them on your wall?" And he goes, "Yeah, from time to time," but he's like, "I'm basically in a vessel of awesome memories, and it doesn't solve all my problems, but why wouldn't you?" And I think that's such a cool idea.

我说：“你发现自己在看墙上的它们吗？”他说，“是的，时不时地”，但他说，“我基本上处于一个充满美好记忆的容器中，它并不能解决我所有的问题，但你为什么不呢？”我认为这是一个很酷的想法。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And these days, we spend a lot of time looking at other people's experiences, a lot of news coming in, and things like that.

如今，我们花了很多时间查看其他人的经历，收到很多新闻，等等。

I wonder if we're just doing a lot less of this.

我想知道我们是否只是做得少了很多。

And as a last point, I've always liked, who knows what's really going on behind the scenes, but I've always liked you going to somebody's home and you'll walk down a stairwell or up a stairwell sometimes, and they've just got the wall littered-

最后一点，我一直喜欢，谁知道幕后到底发生了什么，但我一直喜欢你去某人的家，有时你会走下楼梯间或爬上楼梯间，他们只是把墙上弄得乱七八糟——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

with all these photos.

和所有这些照片。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Not necessarily big families.

不一定是大家庭。

Sometimes yes, sometimes no, and you're like, wow, they're posting all their experiences.

有时是，有时不是，你会想，哇，他们正在发布他们所有的经历。

And I think it's kind of cool.

我认为这很酷。

I don't tend to do it.

我不倾向于这样做。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But this is a version of thinking about and exposing oneself, like basking in the past in a positive way.

但这是一种思考和暴露自己的版本，就像以积极的方式沉浸在过去一样。

I think it's-

我认为这是——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

kind of cool.

有点酷。

Maybe we should do more of it.

也许我们应该做得更多。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

I think what he's talking about, and what you're talking about here, is actually being able to have control over the climate within us, right?

我认为他所说的，以及你在这里所说的，实际上是能够控制我们体内的气候，对吗？

The structure of self, which is foundational, has at its foundation our unconscious mind.

自我的结构是基础性的，它的基础是我们的潜意识。

And the unconscious mind sets parameters for us.

无意识的思维为我们设定参数。

It's kind of the climate in which we're living.

这就是我们生活的气候。

And if that climate is being predisposed, it's programmed to have a bias towards the negative because we're thinking negative thoughts a lot of the time.

如果这种氛围是预先形成的，那么它就会对消极产生偏见，因为我们很多时候都在思考消极的想法。

We're thinking about what we did wrong or what we should've done differently or what's going to go wrong.

我们正在思考我们做错了什么，或者我们应该采取不同的做法，或者会出现什么问题。

Then we're biasing the unconscious mind to throw to the surface the negative answer.

然后我们就会偏向潜意识，让否定的答案浮出水面。

Am I going to be able to do that?

我能做到吗？

No. Right?

不，对吗？

We're biased towards the negative.

我们偏向于消极的一面。

Now, we don't know why.

现在，我们不知道为什么。

Why did I say no instead of yes, right?

为什么我说“不”而不是“是”，对吗？

That arises from the climate inside of me, which is my unconscious mind.

这是由我内心的气候产生的，也就是我的潜意识。

So he's saying, hey, you can sort of pre-program a bias into you towards the positive.

所以他说，嘿，你可以预先设定一种偏向于积极的态度。

And it's not a false bias.

这并不是错误的偏见。

Those memories that are up on his wall are real, right?

他墙上的那些记忆是真实的，对吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

And whether he's looking at them or he's just kind of glancing and he walks by and there's a registration inside that he's not even aware of, he is priming the unconscious mind to see the positive side of things.

无论他是在看它们，还是只是扫了一眼，然后他走过，里面有一种他甚至没有意识到的记录，他正在激发潜意识看到事物积极的一面。

If he thinks, well, can I do that?

如果他认为，好吧，我可以这样做吗？

Or, yes, I can, right?

或者，是的，我可以，对吗？

It changes things inside of him, and he's then able to exercise control over his own climate.

它改变了他内心的事物，然后他就能够控制自己的气候。

And we can do that, too.

我们也能做到。

And often, what we're inadvertently doing is creating a climate of fear and a climate that lacks confidence inside of us because we're just looking at the negative all the time, whether it's about us or the world around us.

通常，我们无意中所做的就是创造一种恐惧的气氛和一种我们内心缺乏信心的气氛，因为我们一直只看到消极的一面，无论是关于我们自己还是我们周围的世界。

And that's a reason why the title of that book is "What's Going Right," because there's way more going right in all of us than there is going wrong, or we wouldn't be here.

这就是为什么那本书的标题是“什么是正确的”，因为我们所有人中正确的事情比错误的事情要多得多，否则我们就不会在这里。

So why not prime ourselves with that, the way that he was doing with the photographs on the wall?

那么，为什么不像他对墙上的照片所做的那样，让我们​​自己做好准备呢？

It absolutely makes sense, and it's not a Pollyanna concept.

这绝对有道理，而且不是盲目乐观的概念。

It's not saying, well, just look at what's going right.

这并不是说，好吧，只要看看发生了什么就可以了。

It's saying, no, this is consistent with what's real and true, and it's good for you, too.

它的意思是，不，这符合真实情况，而且对你也有好处。

It helps you be effective in the world.

它可以帮助您在世界上保持高效。

It helps your mental health.

它有助于您的心理健康。

Helping your mental health helps your physical health.

帮助您的心理健康有助于您的身体健康。

Everything about this aligns with truth, and it sets us up to be in better control of our lives and to be on the front foot as we're approaching life.

关于这一点的一切都符合事实，它使我们能够更好地控制自己的生活，并在接近生活时处于领先地位。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm going to start printing out some photos and posting them because I don't do enough of that because of all the online stuff.

我将开始打印一些照片并发布它们，因为由于所有在线内容，我做得还不够。

I have photos, but I just feel like that...

我有照片，但我就是这样的感觉……

Just remembered this Larry Squire thing now as we were talking about this, but I'm definitely going to do that.

当我们正在谈论这个时，我才想起拉里·斯奎尔的事情，但我肯定会这么做。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yeah, I'm going to do more of it, too.

是的，我也会做更多的事情。

It's a good reminder to do that.

这是一个很好的提醒，要这样做。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, our physical spaces impact us so much.

是的，我们的物理空间对我们影响很大。

And yeah, there are a lot of good memories and some hard ones, too.

是的，这里有很多美好的回忆，也有一些痛苦的回忆。

But put up the good memories.

但留下美好的回忆。

It makes perfect sense to me why one would want to do that.

对我来说，为什么人们想要这样做是完全有道理的。

Earlier, we were talking about the sense of internal control that we feel, the sense of being on one's own side when we're pushing off against something.

早些时候，我们谈论的是我们感受到的内部控制感，即当我们反对某事时站在自己一边的感觉。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I have to ask, I'm fascinated by scripture and by spirituality and notions of God and devil.

我不得不问，我对圣经、灵性以及上帝和魔鬼的概念很着迷。

If people are told, I'm not telling people what to believe, but we are told, many people are told, that there are evil forces out there or perhaps even in us, and there are positive forces out there and in us.

如果人们被告知，我不是在告诉人们该相信什么，而是告诉我们，很多人都被告知，外面有邪恶的力量，甚至我们里面也有邪恶的力量，而外面和我们里面也有积极的力量。

Typically, this is presented as God and Devil.

通常，这被表现为上帝和魔鬼。

Just for sake of conversation, we'll stay with that.

只是为了方便交谈，我们将继续下去。

Do you think that it helps people choose better behaviors by being told and believing that there's a devil out there or inside of them to push against, and therefore to be more on their own side?

你认为通过被告知并相信有一个魔鬼存在于他们的外部或内部来对抗，从而更加站在自己一边，这是否可以帮助人们选择更好的行为？

And of course, if it's internal, it's an aspect of their own side that is better than the bad decision-maker in them.

当然，如果是内部原因，那么他们自己的一个方面比他们内部糟糕的决策者要好。

Right?

正确的？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The way I'm wording this, it's a little complicated, but I can't think of a simpler way to get there.

我的措辞方式有点复杂，但我想不出更简单的方法来实现这一点。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

If so, this seems like a brilliant idea, right?

如果是这样，这似乎是一个绝妙的主意，对吧？

If it's true or not, it's not up to me to tell people, but one has to choose for themselves.

真假，不由我去告诉别人，而是要大家自己选择。

But If the best way to change one's behavior is to be on one's own side, and the best way to be on one's own side is to not be controlled by something else and to actively be resisting that, seems like this God-devil thing is pretty rational.

但如果说改变一个人的行为最好的办法就是站在自己这一边，而站在自己这一边最好的办法就是不被别人控制并积极地反抗，看来这个神魔的事情还蛮合理的。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

I think maybe from the psychological perspective, yes and no. I think if we get too over-reductionist, there's a single force of good and there's a single force of evil.

我想也许从心理学的角度来说，是也不是。我认为，如果我们过于简化，就会有单一的善的力量，也有单一的恶的力量。

I think our major religious tenets, I think, do see the world we live in as more complicated than that, that there's more than just a single force of good and a single force of evil, because then I think what we tend to do is over-identify.

我认为我们的主要宗教信条确实认为我们生活的世界比这更复杂，不仅仅有单一的善意力量和单一的邪恶力量，因为我认为我们倾向于过度认同。

Either I want to be the good force, but I can't be good enough, and I've done something wrong, and now I feel bad about myself because now I feel evil, because I don't feel good enough.

要么我想成为善良的力量，但我不够好，我做了错事，现在我对自己感觉不好，因为现在我感到邪恶，因为我感觉不够好。

Or I feel that the evil in the world is clearly coming for me, and it's directed for me.

或者我感觉世界上的邪恶分明是冲着我来的，而且是冲着我来的。

It's a force directed at me.

这是一股针对我的力量。

We can tend to personify, then, good and evil and either over-identify or feel that we are beleaguered.

因此，我们可能倾向于将善与恶人格化，要么过度认同，要么感觉自己陷入困境。

So if we over-identify that we want to be good and we do something wrong, we feel bad.

因此，如果我们过度地认为自己想做个好人，但做了错事，我们就会感觉很糟糕。

That there can be a push towards self-persecuting or really not understanding ourselves if we oversimplify.

如果我们过于简单化，可能会导致自我迫害或真正不了解自己。

If we think in a broader way, which I do think is consistent with spirituality, and I think it's consistent with the spirituality of major religious traditions, then we see there are forces for good.

如果我们以更广泛的方式思考，我确实认为这与灵性是一致的，并且我认为这与主要宗教传统的灵性是一致的，那么我们就会看到善良的力量。

There are pushes towards good in the universe around us, and that includes within us, and there are forces towards what is not good, towards looking the other way, for example, from someone's needs.

我们周围的宇宙中存在着向善的推动力，其中也包括我们内部的推动力，但也存在着向恶的力量，例如从某人的需求角度看向其他方向的力量。

Not something that's pure evil.

不是什么纯粹的邪恶。

Most of us aren't going to step on someone when they're down, but could we be tempted to look the other way?

当某人情绪低落时，我们大多数人都不会踩到他们，但我们是否会忍不住看向别处呢？

If we see there's a lot of subtlety and nuance to how good and evil plays out in the world around us and inside of ourselves, then I think we're viewing ourselves and the world around us much more consistent with what religion says and I think also where science guides us and is more and more guiding us as we have more and more knowledge and understanding.

如果我们看到善与恶在我们周围的世界和我们内心的表现有很多微妙和细微差别，那么我认为我们看待自己和我们周围的世界与宗教所说的更加一致，我认为科学也指导着我们，并且随着我们拥有越来越多的知识和理解，科学越来越指导我们。

Now we feel that we're part of something greater than us.

现在我们觉得我们是比我们更伟大的事物的一部分。

There are forces that push towards good and forces that push towards evil, forces that push towards construction and towards destruction, and we know how we want to be and where we want to be in that spectrum.

有推动正义的力量，也有推动邪恶的力量，有推动建设的力量，也有推动破坏的力量，我们知道我们想成为什么样的人，以及我们想在这个范围内处于什么位置。

We want to be generative, and we want to be making the world better than we left it, and we want to be bettering ourselves.

我们想要富有创造力，我们想要让世界变得比我们离开时更好，我们想要改善我们自己。

Now we're being, I think, much more true to the reality that we experience, as opposed to being so reductionist that we see one good, one evil, and where are we going to be in that polarized opposite?

我认为，现在我们更加忠实于我们所经历的现实，而不是过于简单化，看到一种善，一种恶，而我们将处于这种两极分化的对立面中呢？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is it a reasonable goal to want to be happy-go-lucky?

想要无忧无虑是一个合理的目标吗？

Can I aspire to that and also be a productive person?

我能实现这一目标并成为一个富有成效的人吗？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Unfortunately, no. Happy-go-lucky, to me, it implies that there's not an awareness that, hey, there are difficult things in the world, and in fact, there are difficult things in my own life.

不幸的是，没有。对我来说，无忧无虑意味着没有意识到，嘿，世界上有困难的事情，事实上，我自己的生活中也有困难的事情。

I think happy-go-lucky implies that we're not aware of how difficult life can be, or maybe life has at times been.

我认为无忧无虑意味着我们没有意识到生活有多么困难，或者生活有时是多么困难。

So I don't think that you can be happy-go-lucky, and I think it's good that you can't be, because who wants to lose the grounding of the things that are real in life that might take away the go-lucky part?

所以我不认为你可以无忧无虑，而且我认为你不能这样也很好，因为谁愿意失去生活中真实事物的基础，从而可能夺走无忧无虑的部分呢？

I think that you can be happy, and I think that that's better than happiness that includes some turning away or some forgetfulness.

我认为你可以幸福，而且我认为这比包括一些转身或一些健忘的幸福更好。

So if we take away the go-lucky, which is, I think, not desirable or possible, I do absolutely believe that you can be happy.

因此，如果我们去掉运气，我认为这是不可取的或不可能的，我绝对相信你会幸福。

Because what we want, and I think there are studies that show us this, and just thinking about how humans have written in literature and philosophy across time of what do we mean when we say happy?

因为我们想要什么，我认为有研究向我们展示了这一点，只要想想人类如何跨时间在文学和哲学中书写，当我们说快乐时，我们意味着什么？

We do want to find peace, contentment, and the capacity for delight.

我们确实想要找到平静、满足和快乐的能力。

We just want to be able to just be and not have so much going on inside or coming at us.

我们只是希望能够保持平静，而不是有太多的事情发生在我们身上或向我们袭来。

We all say we just want a little bit of peace.

我们都说我们只是想要一点和平。

I want to just sometimes walk around and be able to look up at the trees around me and see that the trees are pretty.

我只想有时四处走走，抬头看看周围的树木，发现这些树很漂亮。

For me, that's peace, and I think, yes, we can all find our way to peace.

对我来说，这就是和平，我想，是的，我们都可以找到和平之路。

We may not be able to have it every moment.

我们可能无法每时每刻都拥有它。

We don't have to have it every moment to be happy.

我们不必每时每刻都拥有它才能快乐。

So we need some peace, and we need some contentment, and contentment means that there's awareness of our lives, of the things that have gone well and the things that haven't.

所以我们需要一些平静，我们需要一些满足，而满足意味着我们能够意识到我们的生活，知道哪些事情进展顺利，哪些事情进展不顺利。

So I can find contentment in my life, not every moment, but I can find it even holding in my mind awareness of tragedies that have happened in my life or things that I haven't done or performed about the way I would have ideally wanted to.

因此，我可以在生活中找到满足感，虽然不是每时每刻，但我什至可以在脑海中意识到生活中发生的悲剧，或者我没有按照我理想的方式去做或执行的事情。

I can be aware of those things inside of me but be aware of the whole arc of my life and feel good about it.

我可以意识到我内心的那些事情，但也可以意识到我生活的整个弧线并对此感觉良好。

There was a thought about it, embracing our fate or embracing what we've created for ourselves.

有一个想法，拥抱我们的命运或拥抱我们为自己创造的东西。

In early humanist Nietzsche, this was sort of written about, of the fate that we create for ourselves.

在早期人文主义者尼采的著作中，这在某种程度上是关于我们为自己创造的命运的。

Can we embrace it and want to live it over and over again, even knowing the things in it that may be tragic or not great?

我们是否可以拥抱它，并愿意一次又一次地经历它，即使知道其中的事情可能是悲剧性的，也可能不是伟大的？

Yes, I think we can find peace, we can find contentment, and we can find the capacity for delight.

是的，我认为我们可以找到平安，我们可以找到满足，我们可以找到快乐的能力。

We all had it as children, and if we don't have it now as adults, there's something we can do about that.

我们小时候都有过这种经历，如果我们现在成年后还没有这种经历，我们可以做点什么。

We all need to be able to see something that just makes us light up.

我们都需要能够看到一些让我们眼前一亮的东西。

So I think you and all the rest of us, it may be different how we're going to find it and how much of it and how much time we live in happiness, but I think the answer for you and me and everyone else is we can find happiness because we can weave peace, contentment, and delight into our lives.

所以我认为你和我们其他人，我们如何找到它，以及我们生活在幸福中的程度和时间可能会有所不同，但我认为对你、我和其他人来说，答案是我们可以找到幸福，因为我们可以将和平、满足和快乐编织到我们的生活中。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So is it the case that the things that bring us delight make us, for moments, feel very joyful?

那么，是不是那些给我们带来快乐的事情，会让我们在某个时刻感到非常快乐呢？

What I'm hearing is that has to be on a backdrop of some hard things and some strivings, that the goal is not complete peace and ease?

我听到的是，这必须是在一些艰难的事情和一些努力的背景下，目标不是完全的和平与安逸？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

I think complete peace and ease isn't possible, right?

我认为完全的平静和轻松是不可能的，对吧？

I think for most of us, life has brought difficulties for everyone in one way or another, and life does have its risks and its dangers and its vulnerabilities.

我想对于我们大多数人来说，生活都以这样或那样的方式给每个人带来了困难，生活也确实有它的风险、它的危险和它的脆弱性。

So to think that we need to not have that anywhere in our minds in order to feel good, in order to be happy, I think tells us that we can't be happy being human.

因此，认为我们不需要在头脑中任何地方存在这样的想法，才能感觉良好，才能快乐，我认为这告诉我们，作为人类，我们不可能快乐。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

And oftentimes it leads us to say, "Well, I want to not worry about anything.

通常它会让我们说：“好吧，我不想担心任何事情。

I don't want to have anything weighing on me." We start listing a bunch of things that sound like death, right?

我不想让任何事情压在我身上。”我们开始列出一堆听起来像死亡的事情，对吧？

When we're trying to talk about how we're going to be happy, right?

当我们试图谈论如何才能快乐时，对吧？

And that's not what we're going for, right?

这不是我们想要的，对吧？

I do want to have times of peace when I'm not thinking about bad things that have happened.

当我不去思考已经发生的坏事时，我确实想要拥有平静的时光。

I'm just at peace, and I'm looking at the tree or the bird sitting up in the tree or the log floating down the river, which brought me a lot of peace not that long ago.

我只是很平静，我看着那棵树，或者坐在树上的鸟，或者沿着河漂流的圆木，不久前这给我带来了很多平静。

So we can have these moments.

所以我们可以拥有这些时刻。

It has to also be an awareness of our lives, and we have to, at times, be able to have in our minds the things that are not the way we want them to be and the things that are tragic and still feel good about our lives.

它还必须是对我们生活的认识，有时，我们必须能够在我们的脑海中记住那些与我们希望的方式不同的事情，以及那些悲惨但仍然对我们的生活感觉良好的事情。

I think that's how we find real happiness, and we're not just looking for escapes.

我认为这就是我们找到真正幸福的方式，而不仅仅是寻找逃避。

Because often the happy-go-lucky part is we're looking for an escape, and it's kind of easy to feel that way sometimes if a person chooses an escape, and it could be even in a substance where, okay, it's felt good for a couple of hours, but at what cost, right?

因为通常无忧无虑的部分是我们正在寻找逃避，有时如果一个人选择逃避，就很容易有这种感觉，甚至可能是在一种物质中，好吧，在几个小时内感觉良好，但代价是什么，对吗？

We're not looking for escape.

我们不是在寻找逃避。

What we're looking for is the ability to apprehend our own lives, feel enough in control of our own lives that I don't have to be really afraid of the future.

我们正在寻找的是理解自己生活的能力，感觉自己能够充分掌控自己的生活，这样我就不必真正害怕未来。

I know that there may be scary things in them, but I'm going to meet them as best I can.

我知道其中可能有可怕的东西，但我会尽我所能去面对它们。

I don't have to be afraid of the future, and I feel good about my life.

我不必害怕未来，我对自己的生活感觉很好。

I feel enough in control, and I have enough understanding that I can say, "Okay, I'm good with me at the moment," and now that moment has become another moment, and I'm moving forward, and I'm doing the best I can because this sequence of moments are the only time I'm alive, and I want to be really present for it.

我感觉自己有足够的控制力，我有足够的理解，我可以说，“好吧，我现在很好，”现在那个时刻已经成为另一个时刻，我正在前进，我正在尽我所能，因为这一系列的时刻是我活着的唯一时间，我想真正地在场。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There used to be a lot of articles written, and you could still find this stuff online, about regrets that people had close to the end of their life, and no one ever said they wish they spent more time at the office.

过去有很多文章，你仍然可以在网上找到这些东西，关于人们在生命即将结束时的遗憾，没有人说过他们希望在办公室花更多时间。

I don't know.

我不知道。

I know some people that loved their work and love their work.

我认识一些人热爱他们的工作并且热爱他们的工作。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Did they love it to the detriment of their family?

他们的爱是否会损害他们的家庭？

In some cases, yes.

在某些情况下，是的。

In a lot of cases, no. And so I don't like those lists.

在很多情况下，不会。所以我不喜欢这些清单。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I think those lists serve as prompts for asking questions.

我认为这些列表可以作为提问的提示。

Am I over-invested in one area versus another?

与另一领域相比，我是否在某个领域投入过多？

But I'm guessing you've spent some time with people who are close to the end of their life or at the end of their life.

但我猜你已经和那些接近生命尽头或生命尽头的人一起度过了一些时间。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Have you ever encountered someone who really nailed it?

你遇到过真正做到这一点的人吗？

You didn't think they were just telling you a story about how they felt really good about how they had spent their mental life and their energies.

你不认为他们只是在告诉你一个关于他们如何度过自己的精神生活和精力的感觉非常好的故事。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We don't hear about those people very often.

我们不常听说这些人。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We just don't.

我们只是不这样做。

We hear the, "Oh, no one lies on their deathbed thinking..." We hear all the stuff you're not supposed to do.

我们听到“哦，没有人临终时会想……”我们听到所有你不应该做的事情。

Are there any insights or just, and if you can't remember, just feelings that arrived for you when talking to these people that you genuinely believe, if they didn't hit the bullseye, they were darn close?

是否有任何见解，或者只是（如果你不记得了）当你与这些人交谈时，你真诚地相信，如果他们没有击中靶心，他们就非常接近了？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

What did that look like or feel like, and what did they say?

那看起来像什么或感觉像什么？他们说了些什么？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

It makes me think, actually, of a real example in my own life where a family member much older than me, he would probably be 120 if he were still alive, so he was very old at the time, who had really made something of himself.

其实这让我想到了我自己生活中的一个真实的例子，一个比我大很多的家庭成员，如果他还活着的话，可能已经有120岁了，所以他当时已经很老了，确实已经做出了一些事情。

He didn't have much in the way of education, and he'd been a successful member of the community.

他没有受过多少教育，但他是社区中一位成功的成员。

He'd given back to the community.

他回馈了社区。

He had no education, but he started a bank, and the bank became international, and he was so good and so helpful to the place he had come from, and he'd had real tragedies in his life.

他没有受过教育，但他创办了一家银行，银行变得国际化，他对他来自的地方非常好，非常有帮助，他的生活中经历过真正的悲剧。

He'd lost a child.

他失去了一个孩子。

And when he learned that I was going to medical school a long time ago, he asked to see me.

当他得知我很久以前要去医学院时，他要求见我。

And he was in his, gosh, he would've been in his early 90s at the time, and he told me that he was happy with his life and that he realized that he could die at any moment, and he understood and he accepted that, that he tried to do the best that he could, and he'd made something of himself, and that there was sadness in his life and things he certainly wished would've been different, but that he was happy with his life, and he was okay with dying.

他当时已经90岁出头了，他告诉我，他对自己的生活很满意，他意识到自己随时都可能死去，他理解并接受这一点，他尽力做到最好，他已经做出了自己的贡献，他的生活中有悲伤，他当然希望事情会有所不同，但他对自己的生活很满意，他也可以接受死亡。

And he wanted me to know that he thought that was a good way to feel, right?

他想让我知道他认为这是一种很好的感受方式，对吧？

And that it was tempting to want to be so much and put so much pressure on yourself that you could achieve a lot and not be able to feel good about it.

而且你很容易想要变得如此之多，给自己施加如此大的压力，以至于你可以取得很多成就，但却无法感觉良好。

And it's not something I've forgotten.

这不是我忘记的事情。

I do think of that with fair frequency, and it made me think of that here.

我确实经常想到这一点，这让我在这里想到这一点。

I thought, "That's a person who's lived a good life." And now I wasn't thinking it at the time, but he was clearly describing being able to have peace and have contentment, to feel good about his life, even knowing the things that were not great, and then the capacity for delight.

我想：“那是一个过着美好生活的人。”现在我当时并没有这么想，但他清楚地描述了能够拥有平静和满足，对自己的生活感觉良好，甚至知道那些不太好的事情，然后有能力获得快乐。

There were still things he was very excited about, and his face would still light up.

还有一些让他很兴奋的事情，他的脸仍然会发光。

And I think that was probably earlier role modeling for me of, oh, I'd like to feel that way.

我认为这可能是我早期的榜样，哦，我想有这种感觉。

I'd like to be in my 90s and be able to say that, and it's really stuck with me.

我希望自己在 90 多岁的时候能够说出这样的话，这件事一直困扰着我。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's awesome.

太棒了。

I think we need to think a lot more about what's going right, what went right.

我认为我们需要更多地思考什么是正确的、什么是正确的。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We were talking about that today.

我们今天正在谈论这个。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What went right.

什么是正确的。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yes.

是的。

What's gone right in my life-

我的生活中发生了什么事情-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm

毫米

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

...

...

what I've made go right in my life, right?

我的生活中所做的一切都是正确的，对吗？

Or what hasn't gone right, and I showed up anyway, right?

或者说哪里出了问题，但我还是出现了，对吧？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

That's part of what's going right.

这是正确的事情的一部分。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, we so easily default to the losses.

是的，我们很容易违约。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Which can also be beautiful in some sense.

从某种意义上来说，这也可以是美丽的。

Sometimes.

有时。

But we so easily go to what's wrong.

但我们很容易就出问题了。

But I'm also hearing that happy-go-lucky and just thinking about what's going right, that's not the answer either.

但我也听到了那种无忧无虑的说法，只是想着什么是正确的，这也不是答案。

It's just not it.

事实并非如此。

There has to be that contrast.

必须有这种对比。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This is what I'm hearing you saying today.

这就是我今天听到你说的话。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yes.

是的。

We have to be living an examined life in order to live intentionally.

我们必须过一种审视的生活，才能有意识地生活。

So, yes, we do have to look at ourselves, but the good news is that's okay.

所以，是的，我们确实必须审视自己，但好消息是没关系。

Most of us don't want to be dragged kicking and screaming to looking at ourselves, but that's just because we're afraid.

我们大多数人都不想被拖着又踢又叫地看着自己，但这只是因为我们害怕。

And if we know I'm not going to find anything there that's going to really shock me, or I'm probably not going to find anything I'm not already well aware of, even if I'm trying to hide it from myself, and then there's a process I can go through.

如果我们知道我不会在那里找到任何真正让我震惊的东西，或者我可能不会找到任何我还没有充分意识到的东西，即使我试图向自己隐藏它，然后我就可以经历一个过程。

If I look at myself, I can use the knowledge to make things better.

如果我审视自己，我可以利用这些知识让事情变得更好。

Then that's the simple goodness of it's okay to look at ourselves.

这就是简单的善意，看看我们自己就可以了。

We have to, but we also get to.

我们必须这样做，但我们也必须这样做。

And that's how we're going to live good lives.

这就是我们如何过上美好的生活。

It's how we live the best life we can get, and maybe we get to that point where we can look back and feel good about the choices that we've made and maybe feel okay about choices we've made, even if they haven't led to places where we've wanted them to be, that we can still embrace ourselves and the lives we've led.

这就是我们如何过上我们能得到的最好的生活，也许我们会到了这样一个地步，当我们回顾过去时，对我们所做的选择感觉良好，也许对我们所做的选择感觉良好，即使它们没有通往我们想要的地方，我们仍然可以拥抱自己和我们所过的生活。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

If you don't mind, I just want to ask a couple of questions that are a little bit different than the ones we've been exploring.

如果您不介意的话，我只想问几个与我们一直在探索的问题稍有不同的问题。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Sure.

当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Was writing the book informative for you about the mind, about people, in a way that all the clinical work and certainly the podcasts you've done, was it different?

写这本书是否为你提供了关于思想、关于人的信息，在某种程度上，所有的临床工作，当然还有你所做的播客，是否有所不同？

Did it teach you anything?

它教会了你什么吗？

And if so, are you willing to share one or two of those things?

如果是这样，您愿意分享其中一两件事吗？

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Sure.

当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Sure.

当然。

I think writing about what we know helps us know it better.

我认为写下我们所知道的可以帮助我们更好地了解它。

Because part of knowing something is also being aware that we don't know everything about it.

因为了解某件事的一部分就是意识到我们并不了解它的一切。

So then when we organize our thoughts and we say, okay, I'm doing the best I can to put this down so other people can understand it, we just have to learn from that process.

因此，当我们整理我们的想法并说，好吧，我正在尽我所能把它写下来，以便其他人能够理解它，我们只需要从这个过程中学习。

So yeah, I do feel that I learned as part of writing it and incorporating clinical examples and just incorporating events from life.

所以，是的，我确实觉得我在写作过程中学到了一些东西，并结合了临床例子和生活中的事件。

It helped me, I think, have a fuller view of, oh, I do think that this says a lot about how we're being humans in the world and how our mind is structured, that there is this parallel to the body, and we can bring it to the fore, and I felt very hopeful and optimistic that it kind of holds together, and it leads somewhere.

我认为，它帮助我更全面地了解，哦，我确实认为这很大程度上说明了我们如何在这个世界上成为人类，以及我们的思想是如何构造的，与身体有这种相似之处，我们可以将它带到前台，我感到非常充满希望和乐观，因为它能够结合在一起，并通向某个地方。

So yeah, I think I got a lot out of organizing my thoughts better and writing the book.

所以，是的，我认为我从更好地组织自己的想法和写这本书中获益匪浅。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Last question, which is completely outside the realm of what we've been talking about.

最后一个问题，这完全超出了我们一直在讨论的范围。

Has Lex Fridman texted you back?

Lex Fridman 给你回短信了吗？

Because he hasn't texted me back in a while.

因为他已经很久没有给我回信息了。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

I have not heard from Lex Fridman.

我还没有收到莱克斯·弗里德曼的消息。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Despite multiple efforts-

尽管多方努力——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

...

...

there has been no response.

没有任何回应。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

There are rumors that he's in Dagestan.

有传言说他在达吉斯坦。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

That's right.

没错。

I've heard those rumors, too.

我也听过这些谣言。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There are rumors that he's in Austin, and Lex, we love you, and you don't have to text us back, but maybe just throw up a sign that you're okay.

有传言说他在奥斯汀，莱克斯，我们爱你，你不必给我们回短信，但也许只是发出一个信号，表明你没事。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Or we're going to send a search party to Dagestan.

或者我们将派遣一支搜索队前往达吉斯坦。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

And if you're not there, then we'll really be pissed.

如果你不在的话我们会很生气。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

We're really in trouble.

我们真的有麻烦了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Dr. Paul Conti, this was awesome.

保罗·孔蒂博士，这太棒了。

I have to say, and I'm not going to repeat everything, I promise, but I have to say what I love so much about talking with you is that you can explore these caverns of things, and then these gems just pop out.

我不得不说，我保证，我不会重复所有内容，但我不得不说，我非常喜欢与您交谈的是，您可以探索这些事物的洞穴，然后这些宝石就会突然出现。

This idea that we can be on our own side by seeing what we don't want to be controlled by.

这种想法是，我们可以通过看到我们不想被控制的东西来站在我们自己一边。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I know that's really going to resonate with people because behavioral change is the hardest thing.

我知道这确实会引起人们的共鸣，因为行为改变是最困难的事情。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And behavioral change, when people realize they're not changing, it's like a double whammy.

而行为改变，当人们意识到自己没有改变时，这就像是双重打击。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So that alone is enormous.

所以仅此一项就已经是巨大的了。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And the focus on what's right, I'm not trying to just repeatedly state the title of the book, What's Going Right, is just so vital, I think especially in this time when you turn on the news and it's just all these things that are challenging to the world, which certainly many of them need attention, but focusing on what's going right, what has gone right, it's so essential right now.

关注什么是正确的，我并不是想重复地陈述书名“什么是正确的”，这是非常重要的，我认为特别是在这个时候，当你打开新闻时，所有这些事情都对世界构成挑战，其中许多事情当然需要关注，但关注什么是正确的，什么是正确的，现在是非常重要的。

And it's really-

而且这真的是——

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Thank you

谢谢你

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

what I've learned from you today is that it's really the lifeblood of what it is to be a joyous human being, with the caveat that we also have to address the challenges.

今天我从你们那里学到的是，这确实是成为一个快乐的人类的命脉，但我们也必须应对挑战。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And if they're there, the traumas, and that there's really no other way.

如果他们真的存在，那就是创伤，而且真的没有其他办法。

That's what I'm taking from this.

这就是我从中得到的教训。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

Yes, and that we can do that.

是的，我们可以做到这一点。

And instead of thinking maybe that we can do that or we have to do that, we get to do that.

我们不应该认为我们可以这样做或者我们必须这样做，而是我们必须这样做。

There should be an excitement that we bring, an enthusiasm and a hopefulness that we bring to that process.

我们应该为这个过程带来兴奋、热情和希望。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, thank you for being here today.

好的，谢谢您今天来到这里。

Thank you for writing the book.

感谢您写这本书。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

You're welcome.

不客气。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's going to serve so many people.

它将为很多人服务。

And yeah, thank you for taking your training and your clinical experience and putting it out into the world.

是的，感谢您接受培训和临床经验并将其推广到世界各地。

You don't have any obligation to do that, and most everything that you know and that transpires in those sessions, everything would not serve the larger world to the extent that it does, were you not willing to get out here and there and share with people.

你没有任何义务这样做，如果你不愿意到处走走并与人们分享，那么你所知道的以及在这些会议中发生的大多数事情，一切都不会达到它所服务的程度。

So thank you.

所以谢谢你。

You're clearly one of the leading public educators on the mind and the self and navigating this life landscape.

显然，您是思想和自我以及驾驭这一生活景观的领先公共教育家之一。

So thank you so much for coming here today, and come back again, please.

非常感谢您今天来到这里，请再次回来。

Dr. Paul Conti:

保罗·康蒂博士：

You're very welcome.

非常不客气。

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to do so.

感谢您给我这样做的机会。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, it's my pleasure.

哦，这是我的荣幸。

Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Paul Conti.

感谢您参加今天与 Paul Conti 博士的讨论。

To learn more about his work and to find links to his new book, "What's Going Right," please see the links in the show note captions.

要了解有关他的工作的更多信息并找到他的新书“What's Going Right”的链接，请参阅节目注释标题中的链接。

If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.

如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。

That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.

这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。

In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple.

此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的关注按钮来关注播客。

And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.

在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。

And you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.

您现在可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。

Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.

另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。

That's the best way to support this podcast.

这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。

If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.

如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客或嘉宾有意见，或者您希望我为 Huberman Lab 播客考虑的主题，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。

I do read all the comments.

我确实阅读了所有评论。

For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.

对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。

It's my very first book.

这是我的第一本书。

It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.

它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这本书是我花了五年多时间编写的，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验。

And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.

它涵盖了从睡眠到运动再到压力控制的所有协议，以及与注意力和动机相关的协议，当然，我为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。

The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.

该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。

There you can find links to various vendors.

在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。

You can pick the one that you like best.

您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。

Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." And if you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.

同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab。

So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.

这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。

And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast.

在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。

Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.

同样，所有社交媒体平台上都是 Huberman Lab。

And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one- to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.

如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。

We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.

我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。

All of that is available completely zero cost.

所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。

You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter, and enter your email.

您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的“菜单”选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件即可。

And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.

我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。

Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Paul Conti.

再次感谢您参加今天与 Paul Conti 博士的讨论。

And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.

最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。

Speaker 3:

演讲者3：

NFL football season is here, which means when you switch to Verizon, it feels like touchdown because you get NFL Sunday Ticket from YouTube on us when you buy an eligible 5G phone on select unlimited plans, which means you can watch every out-of-market game every Sunday afternoon.

NFL 橄榄球赛季即将到来，这意味着当您切换到 Verizon 时，感觉就像触地得分，因为当您购买符合条件的 5G 手机并选择无限制套餐时，您就可以从 YouTube 获得 NFL 周日门票，这意味着您可以在每周日下午观看每场非市场比赛。

And it's all on us.

这一切都在我们身上。

Now, that's the Verizon way to kick off the NFL football season right.

现在，这就是 Verizon 开启 NFL 橄榄球赛季的方式。

Switch and get NFL Sunday Ticket from YouTube on us only with Verizon.

切换并仅通过 Verizon 从 YouTube 获取 NFL 周日门票。