Tools for Overcoming Substance & Behavioral Addictions | Ryan Soave
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Ryan Suave.
今天我的客人是 Ryan Suave。
Ryan Suave is a renowned expert in addiction treatment and trauma recovery.
Ryan Suave 是成瘾治疗和创伤康复方面的著名专家。
Ryan has spent decades on the front lines helping people overcome addictions to substances like alcohol and various drugs, as well as behavioral addictions, including gambling, video games, and pornography.
瑞安数十年来一直在第一线帮助人们克服对酒精和各种药物等物质的成瘾，以及行为成瘾，包括赌博、电子游戏和色情内容。
His approach combines evidence-based protocols tailored to each person's unique family history and needs.
他的方法结合了针对每个人独特的家族史和需求而定制的基于证据的方案。
During today's episode, we explore all aspects of addiction, including the relationship between addiction and trauma.
在今天的节目中，我们探讨了成瘾的各个方面，包括成瘾和创伤之间的关系。
Ryan shares insights from his extensive clinical work and provides clear, zero-cost protocols for effective recovery that leverage neuroplasticity, which is your brain's ability to change with intention and experience.
Ryan 分享了他广泛的临床工作中的见解，并提供了清晰、零成本的有效恢复方案，利用神经可塑性，神经可塑性是大脑随意图和经验而改变的能力。
We discuss and compare residential treatment programs, 12-step programs, self-guided addiction recovery, and more.
我们讨论并比较住院治疗方案、12 步方案、自我指导的成瘾康复等等。
If you or someone you know suffers from addiction, the information and tools offered in this episode ought to be of tremendous benefit to initiate and maintain sobriety from that behavior or substance.
如果您或您认识的人患有成瘾症，本集中提供的信息和工具应该对戒除这种行为或物质并保持清醒有巨大的帮助。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, this episode does include sponsors.
为了与这个主题保持一致，这一集确实有赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Ryan Suave.
现在我与 Ryan Suave 进行讨论。
Ryan Suave, welcome.
瑞安·苏阿维，欢迎。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
I'm glad to be here.
我很高兴来到这里。
Thank you for having me.
谢谢你有我。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're the guy that people call, reach out to, cry to when everything comes crashing down.
当一切崩溃时，人们会向你打电话、向你伸出援手、向你哭泣。
That's kind of your thing.
那是你的事。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you have this incredible gift, really, to orient people in time and space when that sort of thing is happening.
当这种事情发生时，你真的有一种令人难以置信的天赋，可以在时间和空间上引导人们。
And you do this for men, women, teens, kids, adults, families.
你为男人、女人、青少年、儿童、成人、家庭做这件事。
You've pretty much seen it all, although I'm sure there's more to come.
您几乎已经看到了这一切，但我确信还会有更多。
I would love for you to just explain to people listening what addiction is and how you see it show up in people's lives.
我希望您能向人们解释什么是成瘾以及您如何看待它在人们的生活中出现。
I know that you tend to get things like a trauma surgeon would see the human body, hemorrhaging and in need of great support, but how do you think about addiction?
我知道你倾向于得到像创伤外科医生会看到人体出血并需要大力支持的东西，但你如何看待成瘾？
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
First, I'd like to make a little bit of a distinction.
首先，我想做一点区分。
We're going to talk about addiction.
我们要谈谈成瘾问题。
When we look at the DSM, the diagnostic manual that we use for diagnosing psychological disorders, not really addiction as a diagnosis.
当我们查看 DSM 时，我们用来诊断心理障碍的诊断手册，而不是真正的成瘾诊断。
That's not super important necessarily because we can talk about it in the term of addiction, but we can look at people and look at biological, psychological, and social factors and make a diagnosis to see that they've got a substance use disorder or an alcohol use disorder, whether it's moderate or severe, or they're dependent on it.
这不一定非常重要，因为我们可以用成瘾的术语来谈论它，但我们可以观察人们，观察生物、心理和社会因素，并做出诊断，看看他们是否患有物质使用障碍或酒精使用障碍，无论是中度还是严重，或者他们是否依赖于此。
And not to give people an out, but not all people that show up with an alcohol use disorder for a point in time are necessarily an addict.
并不是要给人们一个机会，但并不是所有在某个时间点出现酒精使用障碍的人都一定是瘾君子。
They may not be forever.
他们可能不会永远。
It might have been a life circumstance that brought them there.
可能是生活环境将他们带到了那里。
That said, someone that at a point in time in their life could have an alcohol use disorder or substance use disorder, they're probably prone to that, and they probably shouldn't continue down that path or gamble with it.
也就是说，如果有人在生命中的某个时间点可能患有酒精使用障碍或物质使用障碍，他们可能很容易出现这种情况，并且他们可能不应该继续沿着这条路走下去或以此为赌注。
So talking about addiction in general, I like to broaden that definition.
因此，在谈论一般性成瘾时，我喜欢扩大这个定义。
A question I'll ask people is, does it have you, or do you have it?
我会问人们的一个问题是，它有你，还是你有它？
Is it driving you and your behaviors, or are you really leaning on it in a way that that's your medicine?
它是驱动你和你的行为的动力，还是你真的以一种药方的方式依赖它？
Because I don't really see addiction as the problem.
因为我并不真正认为成瘾是问题。
Addiction is the solution.
上瘾是解决方案。
Whatever they're addicted to is the solution to some underlying stressor.
无论他们沉迷于什么，都是解决某些潜在压力源的方法。
I think as humans, when we're uncomfortable, when we're experiencing pain, our immediate reaction is to get out of that.
我认为作为人类，当我们感到不舒服时，当我们经历痛苦时，我们的第一反应就是摆脱这种痛苦。
And when that stress becomes really big, we're going to look for the things that are going to impact us a lot quicker.
当压力变得非常大时，我们会更快地寻找对我们产生影响的事情。
Taking a drink, using a drug.
喝酒，使用药物。
Now, once people start doing that, depending on what it is, if it's heroin or fentanyl, they can become physically addicted to it very quickly, or alcohol over time.
现在，一旦人们开始这样做，根据它是什么，如果是海洛因或芬太尼，他们很快就会对它上瘾，或者随着时间的推移对酒精上瘾。
But I think the definition can be expanded to a lot of other things, maybe even things that seem mundane, and we can have addictive behaviors at different points in our life and maybe have the same behavior that sometimes is addictive and sometimes isn't.
但我认为这个定义可以扩展到很多其他事情，甚至可能是看似平凡的事情，我们可以在生活的不同阶段有上瘾行为，并且可能有相同的行为，有时会上瘾，有时不上瘾。
This is very mundane, but sometimes I'm binge-watching Netflix because I'm on a plane and don't have anything to do, or I'm sick and I can't get out of bed.
这很平常，但有时我会狂看 Netflix，因为我在飞机上无事可做，或者我病了而无法起床。
And other times, I might have a really stressful day or have something going on that I don't want to deal with, and I end up watching TV too late, and then I don't sleep.
有时，我可能度过了压力很大的一天，或者发生了一些我不想处理的事情，我最终看电视太晚了，然后我就睡不着了。
And now, is that an addiction that I need to get treatment for or be pulled away from my family for?
现在，我是否需要接受治疗或远离家人？
Probably not.
可能不会。
But I think in talking about addiction, we want to understand, what is it that people are using, whether it's a substance or a behavior, and why are they using it?
但我认为在谈论成瘾时，我们想要了解人们正在使用什么，是一种物质还是一种行为，以及他们为什么使用它？
While I say addiction is not the problem, it's the solution, it's a solution that becomes very problematic for people.
虽然我说成瘾不是问题，但它是解决方案，它是一个对人们来说变得非常有问题的解决方案。
And you will know this better than I or will be able to explain it better than I would, but they get a benefit in their brain and body for feeling the sense of relief that they'll feel when they use the substance.
你会比我更了解这一点，或者能够比我更好地解释这一点，但他们的大脑和身体会因为使用该物质时感受到的轻松感而受益。
One of the doctors who initially supported the people who founded Alcoholics Anonymous, his name was Dr. Silkworth, and he wrote this opinion, and he said, "Men and women drink essentially because they like the effect produced by alcohol." I believe that effect is relief.
最初支持戒酒互诫协会创始人的一位医生，他的名字叫西尔克沃斯博士，他写下了这个观点，他说，“男人和女人喝酒本质上是因为他们喜欢酒精产生的效果。”我相信效果是缓解。
So people are looking for some sort of relief.
因此，人们正在寻找某种缓解方法。
And the question has to be, I think when we're talking about addiction, what is it that they're looking for relief from?
问题是，我认为当我们谈论成瘾时，他们想要摆脱什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So when somebody comes to you, or in some cases is brought to you-
所以当有人来找你时，或者在某些情况下被带到你身边时——
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
who's in the throes of addiction, what's your first line of attack, so to speak?
谁正处于毒瘾的痛苦之中，可以这么说，你的第一道攻击线是什么？
Are you focused on what the underlying stressor is, or you're trying to stabilize them?
您是否专注于潜在的压力源是什么，或者您正在努力稳定它们？
These are people who sometimes, and sadly, I've seen this in my friends, fortunately who are now sober, but people who wrap the truck around a tree at 7:00 in the morning, having drank a bottle of wine and taken a Xanax, or jail, or worse, right?
可悲的是，有时我在我的朋友身上看到过这种情况，幸运的是他们现在很清醒，但他们却在早上 7:00 将卡车绕在树上，喝了一瓶酒并服用了 Xanax，或者坐牢，或者更糟，对吗？
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so when somebody comes in, what are the first questions that you're asking, and what's the goal?
因此，当有人进来时，您首先要问的问题是什么？目标是什么？
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Let's talk about the most acute first.
我们先来说说最尖锐的。
So I serve as the chief clinical officer for Guardian Recovery.
因此，我担任 Guardian Recovery 的首席临床官。
We do treatment in different states.
我们在不同的州进行治疗。
We serve thousands of people a year, and we have medical detoxes that we start with.
我们每年为数千人提供服务，我们从医疗排毒开始。
So if somebody needs to be detoxed from alcohol or drugs, they're going to come in, we're not going to start asking questions about what the underlying stressor is.
因此，如果有人需要戒酒或戒毒，他们就会进来，我们不会开始询问潜在的压力源是什么。
We're going to first do medical assessments, nursing assessments.
我们将首先进行医疗评估、护理评估。
Sometimes we have to send them to the ER if they're in dire need, or they're so acute that they can't even be in the facility that we have.
有时，如果他们急需，或者他们病情严重，甚至无法进入我们的设施，我们就必须将他们送往急诊室。
We're going to just get them physically stabilized.
我们要让他们的身体稳定下来。
And as we're getting them physically stabilized, the thing with addiction is a lot of people just say stop.
当我们让他们的身体稳定下来时，成瘾的问题是很多人只是说停止。
But for people that just stop, and assuming they're not in danger, like in alcohol if you just stop, you could have seizures and die.
但对于那些停下来的人来说，假设他们没有处于危险之中，就像喝酒一样，如果你停下来，你可能会癫痫发作并死亡。
Other drugs, if you just stop, it can be extremely uncomfortable.
其他药物，如果直接停掉，可能会非常不舒服。
But even if they went to a detox and were able to stop, their life doesn't generally get better right away.
但即使他们去戒毒并且能够戒掉，他们的生活通常也不会立即好转。
In fact, a lot of times it gets worse.
事实上，很多时候情况会变得更糟。
Now, maybe it's better in the fact that they're not about to die, they don't have these physical symptoms, but emotionally, they've been using this substance or alcohol as a medicator.
现在，也许更好的是，他们不会死，他们没有这些身体症状，但在情感上，他们一直在使用这种物质或酒精作为药物。
Now, all of a sudden, the medicine's gone.
现在，药突然就没了。
And they've got to deal with life.
他们必须面对生活。
And so they can actually feel a lot worse right when they come in.
因此，当他们进来时，他们实际上会感觉更糟。
So first, what we're going to do is really understand what's going on with them biologically, so that we can make sure they're safe.
因此，首先，我们要做的是真正了解它们的生物学状况，以便确保它们的安全。
And then as we can support them over the days that they start becoming a little more comfortable, their physical conditions start to stabilize, then we can start to really understand what's going on with them and their environment.
然后，当我们可以在他们开始变得更加舒适的日子里为他们提供支持时，他们的身体状况开始稳定下来，然后我们就可以开始真正了解他们和他们的环境发生了什么。
What is their pattern of use?
他们的使用模式是什么？
When do they use?
他们什么时候使用？
What are the effects that it's having in their life?
它对他们的生活有什么影响？
Because we want to understand how it's playing out everywhere, like I said, biologically, psychologically, and socially.
因为我们想了解它是如何在各地发挥作用的，就像我说的，在生物学、心理和社会方面。
And really get a clear picture of who this person is.
并真正清楚地了解这个人是谁。
And sometimes people come in more motivated than others.
有时人们比其他人更有动力。
Sometimes they get brought to us, like you said.
有时他们会被带到我们这里，就像你说的那样。
And I've seen it work either way, that someone who comes in and says, "I need help.
我见过不管怎样，有人进来说：“我需要帮助。
I'm willing to do anything," that they end up not following through with their treatment.
我愿意做任何事情”，以至于他们最终没有坚持到底。
And other people that come in fighting and screaming end up doing very well over time.
随着时间的推移，其他参与战斗和尖叫的人最终会表现得很好。
I actually like it when people come in in that kind of struggle.
我真的很喜欢人们参与到这种斗争中。
I think, the more people struggle with something upfront, it's like you pull an arrow back.
我认为，越多的人在前期遇到一些困难，就像你拉了一支箭一样。
The further you can pull the bow back and hold it, the more tension in it, the farther it's going to fly.
你把弓拉得越远并握住它，它的张力就越大，它飞得越远。
And I really like when we have people who say, "I'm not going to do this," or, "I'm going to leave." They're actually telling us something about themselves and where they are, and we can be there with them in that struggle.
我真的很喜欢有人说，“我不会这样做”，或者“我要离开”。他们实际上是在告诉我们一些关于他们自己和他们在哪里的事情，我们可以和他们一起度过这场斗争。
Sometimes people will come in, and they're just checking the boxes, and they're going to be a good student, and everything's fine because they're not drinking anymore.
有时人们会进来，他们只是检查一下方框，他们会成为一个好学生，一切都很好，因为他们不再喝酒了。
And then we're never able to really get to the causes and conditions of it.
然后我们永远无法真正了解其原因和条件。
When they're in a treatment setting, we'll have them for anywhere from seven days to 90 days.
当他们接受治疗时，我们将让他们接受 7 天到 90 天不等的治疗。
We like to keep them, and understand what's going on with them, so we can meet them at their different stages.
我们喜欢留住他们，了解他们的近况，这样我们就可以在他们的不同阶段与他们见面。
And the environment, we try to create a microcosm of their social universe so that they can experience some stressors while they're-- We're not creating the stressors, but we're having them communicate with their families.
在环境方面，我们试图创造他们的社会宇宙的缩影，以便他们能够在……我们没有创造压力源，而是让他们与家人沟通时体验到一些压力源。
We're having them face some of the things they don't want to face.
我们让他们面对一些他们不想面对的事情。
And we have a saying that says, "Treatment can't really begin till the crisis occurs." And what that means is more of the internal or existential crisis.
我们有句话说：“只有危机发生，治疗才能真正开始。”这更多地意味着内部或生存危机。
If someone's coming in going, "I'm great, everything's great," maybe things are feeling great right now, but why were they drinking or using in a way that was harming themselves, others, ripping their lives apart?
如果有人进来说，“我很好，一切都很好”，也许现在感觉很好，但为什么他们会以伤害自己、他人、破坏他们生活的方式饮酒或吸毒呢？
Sometimes people will say addiction is a choice.
有时人们会说成瘾是一种选择。
I don't buy that all the time.
我并不总是买那个。
But people will say that.
但人们会这么说。
And what I would say to that is, even if it is a choice, even if people could wake up and say, "I'm going to do this," or, "I'm not," why would they continue to choose a life that they're hurting themselves and others?
我想说的是，即使这是一个选择，即使人们可以醒来并说，“我要做这个”，或者“我不会”，为什么他们会继续选择伤害自己和他人的生活？
So while they're in treatment with us, we want to start to really understand who they are, start to understand what is happening in their environment, and then as they stabilize more physically and then they stabilize emotionally, is we can start to raise their capacity to experience difficult emotions.
因此，当他们接受我们的治疗时，我们希望开始真正了解他们是谁，开始了解他们的环境中发生的事情，然后当他们的身体更加稳定，然后他们的情绪稳定时，我们就可以开始提高他们体验困难情绪的能力。
I say this all the time to my clients, what I really do with them is help them learn how to feel bad.
我一直对我的客户这么说，我真正对他们做的是帮助他们学会如何感受糟糕的感觉。
We don't put that on the website because no one's going to come to us to say, "How can I feel really bad?" But I think that's at the core of it.
我们不会将其放在网站上，因为没有人会来找我们说：“我怎么感觉真的很糟糕？”但我认为这是其核心。
How can we build a distress tolerance so that they can face discomfort, they can face pain, and not choose the thing that gives immediate short-term relief that's going to end up hurting them and those around them?
我们怎样才能建立一种痛苦耐受力，让他们能够面对不适、痛苦，而不是选择那些能立即缓解短期症状、最终伤害他们和周围人的东西？
To allow them to really lean in To whatever that discomfort is.
让他们真正地适应任何不适。
And when people are able to be available for the depths of discomfort, then they really become more available for the heights of joy and satisfaction in life.
当人们能够承受最深的不适时，他们就会真正变得更容易享受生活中的快乐和满足。
So we start to build that capacity so that then we can start looking at the beliefs that maybe-- the limiting type beliefs that have been driving them that are often set from earlier on in their life and the way that they were shaped.
因此，我们开始建立这种能力，这样我们就可以开始审视可能的信念——驱动他们的限制型信念，这些信念通常是在他们生命的早期就设定的，以及它们的形成方式。
And that's often what we talk about as trauma.
这就是我们常说的创伤。
Not always a big event that happened on a single day, although that does occur, but the shapings that people had in their life that we're adaptive.
尽管确实发生了，但并不总是在一天内发生的大事件，但人们在生活中所经历的塑造是我们能够适应的。
People are very adaptive.
人们的适应能力很强。
And kids, and as they're in their formative years, will develop strategies to live life that adapt them in a way that they can survive the environments that they're in.
孩子们在成长过程中，会制定一些生活策略，使他们能够适应自己所处的环境，从而能够生存下来。
And if that adaptation, which was appropriate in their family, their school, their environment, whatever it was, maybe all of those, was something that was more toward a survival response, like a fight or flight type response, and now that's never resolved in some way, and then later in life, they're still applying these adaptive strategies in situations that it's not appropriate for.
如果这种适应，适合他们的家庭、学校、环境，无论是什么，也许所有这些，更多的是一种生存反应，比如战斗或逃跑类型的反应，而现在这从来没有以某种方式得到解决，然后在以后的生活中，他们仍然在不适合的情况下应用这些适应性策略。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, BetterHelp.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 BetterHelp。
BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online.
BetterHelp 提供由持证治疗师完全在线进行的专业治疗。
Now, I personally have been doing therapy weekly for well over 30 years.
现在，我个人每周进行治疗已有 30 多年了。
Initially, I didn't have a choice.
最初，我别无选择。
It was a condition of being allowed to stay in school.
这是被允许留在学校的一个条件。
But pretty soon I realized that therapy is an extremely important component to one's overall health.
但很快我就意识到治疗对于一个人的整体健康来说是极其重要的组成部分。
In fact, I consider doing regular therapy just as important as getting regular exercise, which of course, I also do every week.
事实上，我认为定期治疗和定期锻炼一样重要，当然，我每周都会这样做。
There are essentially three things that great therapy provides.
伟大的治疗本质上可以提供三件事。
First of all, it provides a good rapport with somebody that you can trust and talk to about pretty much any issue with.
首先，它与您可以信任的人建立了良好的融洽关系，并且可以与您谈论几乎任何问题。
Second of all, it can provide support in the form of emotional support and directed guidance.
其次，它可以以情感支持和定向指导的形式提供支持。
And third, expert therapy can provide useful insights, insights that allow you to better not just your emotional life and your relationship life, but of course, also the relationship to yourself and your professional life and to all sorts of goals.
第三，专家治疗可以提供有用的见解，这些见解不仅可以让你改善你的情感生活和人际关系生活，当然也可以改善你与你自己、你的职业生活以及各种目标的关系。
BetterHelp makes it very easy to find an expert therapist with whom you resonate with and that can provide you those three benefits that come from effective therapy.
BetterHelp 让您可以轻松找到与您产生共鸣的专家治疗师，并且可以为您提供有效治疗带来的三大好处。
Also, because BetterHelp allows for therapy to be done entirely online, it's super time efficient and easy to fit into a busy schedule.
此外，由于 BetterHelp 允许完全在线进行治疗，因此它的时间效率非常高，并且很容易适应繁忙的日程。
If you'd like to try BetterHelp, you can go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month.
如果您想尝试 BetterHelp，可以访问 betterhelp.com/huberman，第一个月可享受 10% 的折扣。
Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman.
再说一次，这是 betterhelp.com/huberman。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Levels.
今天的节目也是Levels给我们带来的。
Levels is a program that lets you see how different foods affect your health by giving you real-time feedback on your diet using a continuous glucose monitor.
Levels 是一个程序，通过使用连续血糖监测仪为您的饮食提供实时反馈，让您了解不同的食物如何影响您的健康。
One of the most important factors in both short and long-term health is your body's ability to manage glucose.
短期和长期健康最重要的因素之一是您的身体管理血糖的能力。
This is something I've discussed in depth on this podcast with experts such as Dr. Chris Palmer, Dr. Robert Lustig, and Dr. Casey Means.
这是我在这个播客中与 Chris Palmer 博士、Robert Lustig 博士和 Casey Means 博士等专家深入讨论的内容。
One thing that's abundantly clear is that to maintain energy and focus throughout the day, you want to keep your blood glucose relatively steady without any big spikes or crashes.
一件非常清楚的事情是，为了全天保持精力充沛和注意力集中，您希望血糖保持相对稳定，没有任何大的峰值或崩溃。
I first started using Levels about three years ago as a way to try and understand how different foods impact my blood glucose levels.
大约三年前，我第一次开始使用水平来尝试了解不同食物如何影响我的血糖水平。
Levels has proven to be incredibly informative for helping me determine what food choices I should make and when best to eat relative to things like exercise, sleep, and work.
事实证明，水平对于帮助我确定应该选择哪些食物以及相对于锻炼、睡眠和工作等方面的最佳饮食时间而言，提供了令人难以置信的信息。
Indeed, using Levels has helped me shape my entire schedule.
事实上，使用 Levels 帮助我制定了我的整个日程安排。
I now have more energy than ever, and I sleep better than ever.
我现在比以往任何时候都有更多的精力，而且我的睡眠也比以前更好。
And I attribute that largely to understanding how different foods and behaviors impact my blood glucose.
我将这很大程度上归因于了解不同的食物和行为如何影响我的血糖。
So if you're interested in learning more about Levels and trying a CGM yourself, go to levels.link/huberman.
因此，如果您有兴趣了解有关 Levels 的更多信息并亲自尝试 CGM，请访问levels.link/huberman。
Right now, Levels is offering an additional two free months of membership when signing up.
目前，Levels 在注册时提供额外两个月的免费会员资格。
Again, that's levels.link, spelled of course, L-I-N-K, /huberman to get the additional two free months of membership.
同样，这是levels.link，当然拼写为L-I-N-K，/huberman，以获得额外两个月的免费会员资格。
The thing you said earlier that's ringing in my brain is, does it have you or do you have it?
你之前说的在我脑海中响起的是，它有你还是你有它？
And I think for people listening and watching, I think this is a really important distinction.
我认为对于聆听和观看的人来说，这是一个非常重要的区别。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And maybe you could just elaborate on how one starts to answer that question.
也许你可以详细说明人们如何开始回答这个问题。
Because these days we hear people are addicted to social media, people are addicted to sugar, people are addicted to all sorts of things, and online shopping, and on and on.
因为现在我们听说人们沉迷于社交媒体，人们沉迷于糖，人们沉迷于各种各样的东西，以及网上购物，等等。
Let's just set aside alcoholism for the moment because that's a unique case where, as you mentioned, immediate withdrawal can cause death, and it has its own kind of unique features.
我们暂时先把酗酒放在一边，因为这是一种特殊的情况，正如你提到的，立即戒酒会导致死亡，而且它有其独特的特点。
But for everything else, like if somebody out there is listening and they're like, "Well, I have a hard time clicking off of social media, even though I know I need to sleep, I need to study," or have a hard time disengaging from video games, I think is a common one in a lot of young people.
但对于其他一切，比如如果有人在听，他们会说，“好吧，我很难关闭社交媒体，尽管我知道我需要睡觉，我需要学习”，或者很难摆脱电子游戏，我认为这在很多年轻人中很常见。
How do they know if they're addicted?
他们怎么知道自己是否上瘾？
Is there a litmus test?
有石蕊测试吗？
Could we test ourselves as individuals?
我们可以作为个体来测试自己吗？
Like, can I go an afternoon without it?
比如，我可以一个下午都不带它吗？
Can I go a week without it?
我可以一周不用它吗？
Is that the test?
这就是测试吗？
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
I think that's a great test.
我认为这是一个很好的考验。
Probably more than an afternoon or a week, but can I quit for a month?
可能不止一个下午或一个星期，但我可以戒烟一个月吗？
And when you've stopped, if all you're thinking about is either doing it or when you're doing it, all you're thinking about is how can I stop doing this?
当你停下来的时候，如果你只想着要么做这件事，要么当你在做这件事的时候，你只想着我怎样才能停止这样做？
That's a pretty good indication that it has you.
这是一个很好的迹象，表明它有你。
And you also have to look at what are the things that it's impacting in your life, and that's one of the things we can help people kind of orient to.
你还必须看看它对你的生活产生了哪些影响，这是我们可以帮助人们定位的事情之一。
And they might think that if it's somebody that comes to us that their family's saying this is a huge problem, they may not see it yet, or they may be avoiding it.
他们可能会认为，如果有人来找我们，他们的家人说这是一个大问题，他们可能还没有看到，或者他们可能会回避它。
We call that denial, but a lot of times there's something deep down where they know that, "I'm really disengaged from life.
我们称之为否认，但很多时候他们内心深处知道，“我真的脱离了生活。
I'm lonely.
我很孤独。
I don't have the quality of relationships.
我没有优质的人际关系。
I'm not able to be motivated to do the things that I want to do."
我没有动力去做我想做的事情。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What if it still feels good to them, however?
然而，如果他们仍然感觉良好怎么办？
Like family isn't saying, "Look, kid isn't getting their schoolwork done." But It's kind of outrageous, four hours a day playing video games, three hours a day.
就像家人不会说：“看，孩子没有完成作业。”但这有点离谱，每天玩四个小时电子游戏，每天三个小时。
That might not even seem like that much to a lot of people, but parents can see the opportunity cost of that.
对于很多人来说，这似乎并没有那么严重，但父母可以看到其中的机会成本。
This is time that kid isn't running around and getting exercise.
这是孩子不乱跑和锻炼的时间。
This is time that is eating into sleep.
这是进入睡眠的时间。
This is time that could be spent studying.
这是可以用来学习的时间。
So maybe grades haven't cratered yet.
所以也许成绩还没有下降。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we live in the, quote-unquote, American Dream model-
我们生活在美国梦模式中——
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
where kids say, "Well, so and so makes millions of dollars every year playing video games."
孩子们会说：“嗯，某某每年通过玩电子游戏赚到数百万美元。”
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"So I'm actually on the path." I think you see that fairly often these days, right?
“所以我实际上已经在路上了。”我想你现在经常看到这种情况，对吧？
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
I'll relate it back to drugs for a second.
我将把它与毒品联系起来。
You and I are the same age, and you probably remember the this is your brain, this is your brain on drugs, when they showed the egg, this is your brain and-
你和我同龄，你可能还记得这是你的大脑，这是你吸毒的大脑，当他们展示鸡蛋时，这是你的大脑，而且-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Disrespectful to eggs.
不尊重鸡蛋。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Right.
对。
Very disrespectful to eggs.
非常不尊重鸡蛋。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which I'm a big fan of, but yeah.
我是它的忠实粉丝，但是是的。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
And then this is your brain on...
然后这是你的大脑...
Well, it did call the egg a brain, so that was pretty good, right?
嗯，它确实把鸡蛋称为大脑，所以这很好，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, that's true.
哦，确实如此。
You're right.
你说得对。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
It said it was a brain.
它说这是一个大脑。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Your logic is impeccable.
你的逻辑无可挑剔。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
And this is your brain on drugs, and it showed the fried egg.
这是你吸毒后的大脑，它显示了煎鸡蛋。
I think that was a terrible example for kids, because most of the time when people do drugs the first time, it doesn't feel like that.
我认为这对孩子们来说是一个可怕的例子，因为大多数时候，当人们第一次吸毒时，感觉并不是那样的。
It feels good.
感觉很好。
It feels great.
感觉很棒。
It's over time when you keep doing that, especially a kid that doesn't have all of the responsibility and the things in life that they might have or want to have later on, they're not going to see that that's a problem necessarily.
随着时间的推移，当你继续这样做时，尤其是一个孩子，他们没有承担所有的责任，也没有他们以后可能拥有或想要拥有的生活中的东西，他们不会意识到这必然是一个问题。
Because it does feel good.
因为确实感觉很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right, and some of their heroes are very public about the fact that they smoke a ton of high-THC weed.
是的，他们的一些英雄非常公开地承认他们吸食了大量高 THC 大麻。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When I was growing up, that was associated with lack of agency and kind of being a, quote-unquote, burnout-
在我成长的过程中，这与缺乏能动性和某种程度的倦怠有关。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
was the idea.
这就是我的想法。
Nowadays, there are just as many examples of people that smoke a lot of weed, are vocal about that, and by all external measures are doing very well, perhaps better than most.
如今，有很多例子表明，人们吸食大量大麻，并对此直言不讳，而且从所有外部衡量标准来看，他们都做得很好，也许比大多数人都好。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
It also wasn't as highly concentrated when we were kids.
当我们还是孩子的时候，它也没有那么高度集中。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
True.
确实如此。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
This is pretty intense these days and can have some really long-lasting effects on people.
如今这种情况非常严重，会对人们产生一些真正持久的影响。
And there's some people that it's not going to affect in the same way it does others.
有些人不会像对其他人产生同样的影响。
Some people are going to be able to smoke that amount of THC or vape it or however they're doing it, right?
有些人将能够吸食那么多的 THC 或电子烟，或者无论他们如何做，对吗？
The delivery methods are very...
送货方式非常...
It's crazy these days because people used to have to roll a joint, go behind the store.
现在这很疯狂，因为人们过去必须卷一根大麻，走到商店后面。
It was like an event to go do that.
去做这件事就像是一次活动。
Now you can-
现在你可以-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you had to break the law.
你必须违法。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
You had to break the law.
你必须违法。
Now it's in a candy.
现在它在糖果里。
It's candy, right?
这是糖果，对吧？
It's gummy bears.
这是小熊软糖。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wild.
狂野。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
It's really wild.
真的很狂野。
And the thing with those people that are succeeding at it, when we really look at that, what percentage of the people is that, right?
那些在这方面取得成功的人，当我们真正审视这一点时，他们占了多少比例，对吗？
It's a very, very small percentage.
这是一个非常非常小的百分比。
Of course, kids are going to look at that and say, "Well, I can do that." I've had a conversation with my teenage son about that.
当然，孩子们会看到这个并说：“好吧，我能做到。”我和我十几岁的儿子就此进行过交谈。
And even if they're playing games four hours a day, I imagine those guys that win these video game, or they're the YouTubers that are making all kinds of money, they're approaching it like a pretty intense job.
即使他们每天玩四个小时的游戏，我想象那些赢得这些视频游戏的人，或者他们是赚各种钱的 YouTuber，他们将其视为一项非常紧张的工作。
They're really working at it.
他们确实在努力。
But we don't want to take away that imagination and creativity from kids, but it's our job as parents to look and see.
但我们不想剥夺孩子们的想象力和创造力，但作为父母，我们的工作就是去观察和观察。
The kids aren't going to see what's happening.
孩子们不会看到发生了什么。
Their kind of timing is like now or not now.
他们的时机是现在或者不是现在。
They're not really looking too far into the future, and that's a beautiful thing about being a kid as well.
他们并没有真正展望太远的未来，这也是作为一个孩子的一件美好的事情。
It's our job to put those guardrails on, and as parents, really understand what are the things that may impact them over the long term.
我们的工作就是设置这些护栏，作为父母，要真正了解哪些事情可能会长期影响他们。
But we also have to understand, it's easy for me to look at, I had video games when I was a kid, but it was Nintendo and-
但我们也必须明白，这对我来说很容易理解，我小时候玩过电子游戏，但那是任天堂，而且——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sega
世嘉
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
...
...
Sega, and it didn't pull you in as much, and we were outside all the time.
世嘉，它并没有那么吸引你，而且我们一直在外面。
It was a little bit different.
有点不同。
We'd come in and play video games at night.
晚上我们会进来玩电子游戏。
Now these things really pull you in, and you're interactive, and they communicate with other people.
现在这些东西确实吸引了你，你可以互动，他们可以与其他人交流。
A lot of kids have their social connection out of playing video games.
许多孩子通过玩电子游戏建立社交联系。
I actually had a mentor once who was involved in a leadership program with all these other adults, and they did their leadership program.
实际上，我曾经有一位导师，他与所有其他成年人一起参与了领导力项目，他们也完成了他们的领导力项目。
They were all over the world, and they would meet in, I think it was "World of Warcraft" and play together, and they had different things that they would do to work through whatever they were doing in the leadership program.
他们遍布世界各地，他们会在《魔兽世界》中见面并一起玩，他们会做不同的事情来完成他们在领导力计划中所做的任何事情。
So there is some benefits to it for people.
所以它对人们来说有一些好处。
These kids can really connect with each other, and especially through the pandemic, this happened.
这些孩子可以真正相互联系，尤其是在大流行期间，这种情况发生了。
I'm going to come back to what I was going to say about as a parent, it's easy for me to look at and say, "Well, there's too much social media.
我要回到我作为父母要说的内容，我很容易看到并说：“嗯，社交媒体太多了。
It's too much video games.
电子游戏太多了。
It's too much this.
这也太过分了吧
It would be great if all that stuff was taken away." Well, guess what?
如果所有这些东西都被拿走那就太好了。”嗯，你猜怎么着？
It's not going anywhere.
它不会去任何地方。
And I can't really relate to it in the same way that my kids will relate to it.
我无法像我的孩子们那样真正地理解它。
I have younger kids that I have no idea what's going to be there when they're of age to look at screens or be in the world or communicate with others.
我有一些年幼的孩子，我不知道当他们长大后可以看屏幕、接触世界或与他人交流时，那里会发生什么。
But it's our job as parents to look at and get to know our kids in a way that we can see what are the things that are going to benefit them and what are the things that aren't.
但作为父母，我们的工作就是观察并了解我们的孩子，这样我们就能知道哪些事情对他们有利，哪些事情对他们没有好处。
I don't think every kid shouldn't play video games.
我不认为每个孩子都不应该玩电子游戏。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, neither do I.
不，我也不。
I think that the contrast with the video games that you played when you were younger, and then you mentioned going outside, I realize this is not a strict definition of addiction by any means, but if something in the electronic sphere makes, quote-unquote, real life underwhelming-
我认为与你年轻时玩的电子游戏形成鲜明对比，然后你提到外出，我意识到这无论如何都不是成瘾的严格定义，但如果电子领域的某些东西让现实生活平淡无奇的话——
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I don't know if that means it's addictive, but it certainly means it has a gravitational pull, right?
我不知道这是否意味着它会让人上瘾，但这肯定意味着它有引力，对吗？
And we can set this as a kind of a pillar for context when we talk about pornography, for instance.
例如，当我们谈论色情内容时，我们可以将其设置为上下文的支柱。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
There's a saying, "A picture is worth a thousand words," and I would say as a vision scientist that a movie, or even a reel, or a clip on TikTok is worth a billion pictures.
有句话说，“一张图片胜过一千个单词”，作为一名视觉科学家，我会说一部电影，甚至是一卷影片，或者 TikTok 上的一个剪辑，都相当于十亿张图片。
Never before have we been exposed to so many movies with so much richness in sound and eyes.
我们从未接触过如此多声音和视觉如此丰富的电影。
The more times we see eyes and you've got all this elaborate context of whether or not you're talking about pornography, whether or not you're talking about video games, the sort of sensory richness of it.
我们看到眼睛的次数越多，你就会得到所有这些复杂的背景，无论你是否在谈论色情，无论你是否在谈论视频游戏，以及它的感官丰富性。
Richness feels like the wrong word, right?
富裕这个词感觉用错了，对吧？
But the amount of sensory information coming in through any one of those very brief experiences in a moment, it doesn't necessarily overwhelm the brain.
但是，通过任何一次非常短暂的经历在一瞬间传入的感官信息量并不一定会压垮大脑。
Clearly, the brain can handle it.
显然，大脑可以处理它。
But then you walk out into a landscape, like a park with a couple basketball hoops and some paint drawn on the concrete and a ball, and it looks boring.
但当你走进一个风景，就像一个公园，有几个篮球筐，混凝土和一个球上画了一些油漆，它看起来很无聊。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's the difference between eating, as a kid, a hot fudge sundae banana split and then being offered a plate of broccoli.
这就像小时候吃热软糖圣代香蕉圣代和吃一盘西兰花之间的区别。
You have to know a lot about nutrition and care a lot about the long-term effects of nutrition on the body to not think that the hot fudge sundae is the better option.
你必须对营养有很多了解，并且非常关心营养对身体的长期影响，才不会认为热软糖圣代是更好的选择。
It just makes sense from a neural perspective.
从神经的角度来看，这是有道理的。
So I wonder whether or not this definition of addiction or habit-forming behaviors or dependence could be expanded to include the ratio of gravitational pull versus how it makes other things seem.
所以我想知道是否可以将成瘾或习惯形成行为或依赖的定义扩展到包括引力与它使其他事物看起来如何的比率。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
And obviously, I don't believe that we should remove technology.
显然，我不认为我们应该取消技术。
I think technology's wonderful.
我认为技术很棒。
But I could imagine that for a young brain and for an older brain, right?
但我可以想象对于年轻的大脑和年长的大脑来说都是如此，对吧？
Can I just ask you, do you find any adults or do you encounter many adults who are addicted or have a habit of excessive online shopping?
我想问一下，你是否发现有成年人或者你是否遇到过很多沉迷或有过度网购习惯的成年人？
It's so easy-
就是这么简单-
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Oh, yeah
哦，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to buy stuff online.
网上买东西。
Just the barriers to entry are so low.
只是进入门槛如此之低。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So does that make sense, this contrast between-
那么这有道理吗，这种对比——
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
richness and dullness that exacerbates the dullness the more that you engage-
丰富和沉闷，你参与得越多，就会加剧沉闷——
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in some behavior.
在某些行为中。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah, and I want to be clear.
是的，我想澄清一下。
While I said it's not necessarily a problem for everyone, I believe video games, as an example, can absolutely be addictive.
虽然我说过这不一定对每个人来说都是一个问题，但我相信以电子游戏为例，它绝对会让人上瘾。
There's been studies that have shown that it's impacting the brain in the same way as a lot of drugs are.
有研究表明，它与许多药物一样影响大脑。
I've worked with kids who video games were taken away, and their Wi-Fi was shut down, and they were somehow stealing some console and in the bushes near another home, somehow pirating their Wi-Fi to play the video games during the day.
我曾与一些孩子一起工作，他们的电子游戏被拿走，他们的 Wi-Fi 被关闭，他们以某种方式偷了一些游戏机，并在另一个家附近的灌木丛中，以某种方式盗用他们的 Wi-Fi 在白天玩电子游戏。
It sounds like-
听起来像——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like an addict
像个瘾君子
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
...
...
like a crack addict.
就像一个瘾君子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Or in the streets.
或者在街上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As a kid?
小时候？
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
A kid.
一个孩子。
It was probably a 15 or 16-year-old kid.
那大概是一个15、16岁的孩子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So they took away his Wi-Fi-
所以他们拿走了他的Wi-Fi-
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and video games, and he's hiding.
和电子游戏，而他却躲了起来。
I'm chuckling, but it's terrible.
我笑了，但这太可怕了。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You can only imagine what's going on inside that kid that they can't, as you've mentioned before, handle the discomfort of this thing that's like their medicine.
你只能想象那个孩子内心正在发生什么，正如你之前提到的，他们无法处理这个就像他们的药物一样的东西带来的不适。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's the thing that makes them feel good.
这是让他们感觉良好的事情。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
And we have these adolescent treatment centers, and these kids come in, and they'll be very dysregulated, even if they've been off of drugs, or usually, it's a lot of marijuana these days, and they start to clear up from that, but they're extremely dysregulated, agitated, reactive.
我们有这些青少年治疗中心，这些孩子进来后，他们会非常失调，即使他们已经戒掉了毒品，或者通常，这些天吸了很多大麻，他们开始摆脱这种状态，但他们极度失调、焦躁、反应性。
And after sometimes three, four weeks, we start to see a completely different person.
有时三、四个星期后，我们开始看到一个完全不同的人。
And one of the things I'm convinced is that they haven't been with their phones, they haven't been on social media, they haven't been playing video games.
我确信的一件事是他们没有使用手机，他们没有使用社交媒体，他们没有玩电子游戏。
And I'm not saying the answer is to take that away, but you can start to see the impact that that has on them.
我并不是说答案就是取消它，但你可以开始看到这对他们产生的影响。
They're so anxious about not being connected in that way or being, I would imagine, in that universe that you're talking about that's hot fudge sundae all the time.
他们非常担心不能以这种方式联系起来，或者我想，在你一直谈论的那个热软糖圣代的宇宙中。
Who doesn't want to eat hot fudge sundae all the time?
谁不想一直吃热软糖圣代？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, and then hot fudge sundae doesn't seem to taste so good then.
嗯，然后热软糖圣代的味道似乎不太好。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
No, then you need more hot fudge sundae.
不，那你需要更多的热软糖圣代。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
That's the dopamine dynamic stuff that, thank goodness, Anna Lembke, author of "Dopamine Nation"-
这就是多巴胺动态的东西，谢天谢地，《多巴胺国家》的作者安娜·伦布克——
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
made so clear that those big, fast inflections in dopamine very quickly lead to smaller and smaller peaks in dopamine from the same behavior or substance, and then the trough of low that comes after is just immense.
很明显，多巴胺的那些大而快速的变化很快就会导致来自相同行为或物质的多巴胺的峰值越来越小，然后接下来的低谷是巨大的。
In fact, the other day, before I forget, there was a post on X of a guy.
事实上，前几天，在我忘记之前，X 上有一个人的帖子。
He sold his company for a billion plus dollars, and he was expressing the extreme depression of not knowing what to do with himself now.
他以十亿多美元的价格卖掉了自己的公司，他表达了自己现在不知道该怎么办的极度沮丧。
And everyone will say, "Oh, poor guy," right?
每个人都会说，“哦，可怜的家伙，”对吗？
I don't illustrate that point to make it a point about billionaires or not, but it wasn't the pursuit of pleasure, it was the pleasure of pursuit-
我并不是为了让它成为亿万富翁的观点而说明这一点，但这不是对快乐的追求，而是追求的快乐——
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that drives dopamine.
驱动多巴胺。
He gets the goal.
他进球了。
There's no more pleasure from pursuit because he's not pursuing anything anymore.
追求不再有乐趣，因为他不再追求任何东西。
And you think, "How could that possibly be?
你会想：“这怎么可能呢？
He can buy anything he wants." But the whole point is that the dopamine isn't deployed for the reward, it's deployed for the pursuit of the reward.
他可以买任何他想要的东西。”但重点是，多巴胺不是为了奖励而使用的，而是为了追求奖励而使用的。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So that trough is a very real thing.
所以这个低谷是一个非常真实的事情。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah, and in the trough, you're still not going to go back to a plate of broccoli.
是的，在低谷中，你仍然不会再吃一盘西兰花。
You're going to keep going after the hot fudge sundae feeling, even though the hot fudge sundae isn't giving it to you anymore.
你会继续追求热软糖圣代的感觉，即使热软糖圣代不再给你这种感觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, that's an extremely important point, that people are chasing a feeling.
嗯，这是非常重要的一点，人们在追逐一种感觉。
I had a friend who, thankfully, is a recovered addict.
谢天谢地，我有一个朋友，他是一个已经康复的瘾君子。
I obviously won't disclose who this is.
我当然不会透露这个人是谁。
A former methamphetamine addict, very successful in life, but had a serious meth issue.
一名前冰毒瘾君子，生活非常成功，但有严重的冰毒问题。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got sober and contacted me not long ago, requesting some support because they were thinking about abusing Adderall.
不久前我清醒了，并联系了我，请求一些支持，因为他们正在考虑滥用阿得拉。
And we had a conversation.
我们进行了交谈。
Fortunately, they didn't do this.
幸运的是，他们没有这样做。
He's doing great, goes to meetings, has a sponsor, is taking care of that.
他做得很好，参加会议，有赞助商，正在处理这些事情。
But the description of why they were pursuing this idea of abusing Adderall was this recollection of a feeling.
但他们之所以追求滥用阿得拉的想法的描述是对一种感觉的回忆。
He kept talking about like, "I just remember that feeling.
他一直在说，“我只记得那种感觉。
And everything felt..." And he was talking about something that I can't relate to because I've never done meth, have no intention of doing meth.
一切都感觉……”他正在谈论一些我无法理解的事情，因为我从来没有吸食过冰毒，也无意吸食冰毒。
But it's almost like it was a Like a love affair that had been spectacular, that he was missing this person, but it was a thing.
但这几乎就像一场轰轰烈烈的恋情，他想念这个人，但这是一件事。
It sounded like love, like, "I miss that feeling."
听起来像是爱，就像“我怀念那种感觉。”
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
I think that's a very important point, because I see people as having spiritual relationships with alcohol and drugs.
我认为这是非常重要的一点，因为我认为人们与酒精和毒品有精神联系。
They use them as something that makes them feel connected.
他们把它们当作让他们感到有联系的东西。
They feel whole.
他们感觉完整。
What is alcohol called?
酒精叫什么？
Spirits.
烈酒。
That it's something that can allow them, even if for a period of time, to feel the way that maybe they want to feel or not feel the way that they don't want to feel.
即使在一段时间内，它也可以让他们感受到他们想要的感觉，或者不感受到他们不想要的感觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can we dissect that a little bit?
我们可以稍微剖析一下吗？
To feel the way they want to feel versus not feel the way they don't want to feel.
以他们想要的方式去感受，而不是以他们不想要的方式去感受。
I remember reading Augusten Burroughs' book, "Dry." He's a recovered alcoholic, and there's this paragraph in there where he talks about his first drink of alcohol, and I'm going to get the exact wording wrong, but it went something like, on that first drink, he felt-- He's in the first person, he's saying, "I felt it mesh with my blood and my physiology, and my physiology felt correct for the first time." And I thought, oh my goodness.
我记得读过奥古斯汀·巴勒斯的书《干》。他是一个已经康复的酒鬼，其中有一段他谈到了他第一次喝酒，我可能会弄错确切的措辞，但它的意思是，在第一次喝酒时，他觉得——他是第一人称，他说，“我觉得它与我的血液和我的生理机能相融合，我的生理机能第一次感觉是正确的。”我想，天哪。
I certainly don't have that relationship to alcohol, but I have friends who are serious alcoholics, fortunately now sober, who describe alcohol that way.
我当然和酒精没有那种关系，但我有一些朋友是严重的酗酒者，幸运的是现在清醒了，他们这样描述酒精。
From the first drink, they say, "This is me." It's like they're finding themselves.
从第一杯酒开始，他们就说：“这就是我。”就好像他们正在寻找自己。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that's very different than avoiding the way they felt previously.
这与避免他们以前的感受有很大不同。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Most of them didn't pick up a drink the first time because they were trying to find that person or because they were trying to avoid something else.
他们中的大多数人第一次没有拿起饮料，因为他们试图找到那个人，或者因为他们试图避免其他事情。
It was because there was booze at a party or booze at home.
因为聚会上有酒，或者家里有酒。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Even the people like him that are talking about alcohol like that, and I've heard this story thousands of times, from people that never read that book, that that's how they felt.
即使是像他这样谈论酒精的人，我已经从从未读过那本书的人那里听过这个故事数千次，这就是他们的感受。
They couldn't have been using it most of the time to get away or to move away from how they're feeling because they didn't even recognize that's how they're feeling.
他们大部分时间不可能用它来摆脱或摆脱他们的感受，因为他们甚至没有意识到这就是他们的感受。
That was just the world they were in.
这就是他们所处的世界。
Especially, a lot of times, this is kids and adolescents who that's the first time they're drinking, and they don't realize that they could feel the way that they're feeling.
特别是，很多时候，这是第一次喝酒的儿童和青少年，他们没有意识到他们可以感受到自己的感受。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
The way that we grow up are just the waters we swim in.
我们成长的方式就是我们游泳的水域。
We don't often know that there's a difference between who we are and how we can be.
我们常常不知道我们是谁和我们能成为什么样的人之间存在着差异。
And to be able to, a lot of people, even the first time they'll do it, and it's not always like that for everybody, right?
并且能够，很多人，即使是第一次，他们也会这样做，但并不总是对每个人来说都是这样，对吧？
Some people just are using it socially and then later on when there are stressors, realize that, I can use this to medicate as well.
有些人只是在社交场合使用它，然后当有压力源时，意识到我也可以用它来治疗。
But the ones that are having the relationship that you just described is, they didn't even know.
但那些拥有你刚才描述的关系的人，他们甚至不知道。
They had no idea that life or their emotional state or their physiological state could be different than it was.
他们不知道生活、他们的情绪状态或他们的生理状态可能会有所不同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So how do you persuade somebody that it's a good idea to take that away from themselves?
那么，你如何说服某人将其从自己身上拿走是个好主意呢？
Because I imagine some of the first thoughts that go through their mind include, "I can't imagine life without that feeling."
因为我想象他们脑海中浮现的第一个想法包括：“我无法想象没有这种感觉的生活。”
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
St. Augustine said, and I'm not going to get it exactly right, but he said something like, "Well-living depends on reordering your loves." And he was talking about people living with a disordered life.
圣奥古斯丁说，我不会说得完全正确，但他说过类似的话，“美好的生活取决于重新安排你的爱。”他谈论的是生活无序的人们。
And the question it begged is, what are you loving the most?
它提出的问题是，你最喜欢什么？
And his argument, I think, was, whatever you're loving the most becomes your god, your higher power.
我认为，他的论点是，无论你最爱什么，都会成为你的上帝，你的更高权力。
If I'm loving money the most, if that's the most important thing to me, then money is my higher power.
如果我最喜欢金钱，如果这对我来说是最重要的，那么金钱就是我的更高权力。
The thing is, money will fail me, right?
问题是，钱会让我失望，对吗？
Like you just talked about.
就像你刚才谈到的那样。
The guy could get a billion dollars and want to kill himself.
这家伙可以获得十亿美元，却想自杀。
Right?
正确的？
Or if I put my relationship at the, if I said, "The most important thing to me is that my wife is happy, and that's my most important thing," that sounds great, but she's not going to be happy all the time.
或者，如果我把我的关系放在，如果我说，“对我来说最重要的是我的妻子快乐，这是我最重要的事情”，这听起来不错，但她不会一直快乐。
And when she is, I'm going to feel great, and when she's not, I'm going to feel like I'm doing something wrong.
当她在的时候，我会感觉很棒，而当她不在的时候，我会觉得自己做错了什么。
Are we making sex the most important thing?
我们是否将性视为最重要的事情？
And his argument was love God first and then do as you will.
他的论点是先爱神，然后做你想做的事。
Find the highest power, because these powers that we're putting up there, like money, sex, food, all things that aren't problematic, we need them.
找到最高的权力，因为我们放在那里的这些权力，比如金钱、性、食物，所有没有问题的东西，我们需要它们。
They only become problematic when they're problematic, right?
他们只有在有问题的时候才会成为问题，对吗？
When we're making them that thing that's going to solve our problems.
当我们让它们成为能够解决我们问题的东西时。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What about kids?
孩子们呢？
I know a number of people who are excellent parents who are super devoted to their kids, and they say, "My kids are my life.
我认识很多非常优秀的父母，他们对孩子非常投入，他们说：“我的孩子就是我的生命。
My kids are everything." That might just be language, right?
我的孩子就是一切。”这可能只是语言，对吧？
They could also have a relationship to a higher power.
他们还可能与更高的权力有关系。
But, do you see people suffering by virtue of over-emphasizing their kids or their, you mentioned spouse, but as a priority in their life?
但是，您是否看到人们因过分强调自己的孩子或您提到的配偶而将其视为生活中的优先事项而遭受痛苦？
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah, and it's great that you made a distinction about just being language because people can say those things.
是的，很高兴你对语言做出了区分，因为人们可以说这些事情。
Like, "My kids are very important to me." Probably, I would say, one of the most important things in my life is to be a father, right?
就像，“我的孩子对我来说非常重要。”也许，我会说，我一生中最重要的事情之一就是成为一名父亲，对吧？
But if the energy in the house, again and again, is that my kids are my life, what a burden that is for that child.
但如果家里的能量一次又一次地表明我的孩子就是我的生命，这对那个孩子来说是一个多大的负担。
That means that that child might, in those instances, show up in a way that they need to be happy, they need to perform, they can't show sadness.
这意味着在这种情况下，孩子可能会表现出他们需要快乐、他们需要表现、他们不能表现出悲伤的方式。
It becomes their job to make their parents okay.
让父母安好就成了他们的工作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And can you imagine that kid later, grown up-
你能想象那个孩子长大后——
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Looking for a partner and the expectation on that partner or the expectation on themselves just based on that role internalization of that they're the center of the universe or that maintaining this beam of love from the other person-
寻找伴侣以及对伴侣的期望或对自己的期望只是基于角色内化，即他们是宇宙的中心或维持来自他人的爱之光-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
...
...
is essential or else it feels life-threatening.
是必不可少的，否则感觉会危及生命。
Yeah, it's a covert form of abuse to use our children to meet our needs.
是的，利用我们的孩子来满足我们的需要是一种隐蔽的虐待形式。
We're there to meet their needs, depending on their age.
我们会根据他们的年龄来满足他们的需求。
You have an infant, you're their highest power.
你有一个婴儿，你就是他们的最高权力。
You have to do it.
你必须这么做。
They can't survive without you.
没有你他们就无法生存。
They can't feed themselves, and you carry them all the time.
它们无法自己进食，而您却一直带着它们。
And then eventually they start crawling and walking, and you carry them more than you don't, and then eventually they're walking all the time, and you're carrying them just a little bit, and then you're not carrying them anymore.
然后最终他们开始爬行和行走，你背着他们的次数比不背着的时候多，最后他们一直在走路，你只背着他们一点点，然后你就不再背着他们了。
If you're still carrying them all the time when they're 16 or 17, that's a problem.
如果当他们 16 岁或 17 岁的时候你仍然一直带着它们，那就是一个问题。
But when we're using them to meet our needs again and again, now it becomes their job to care for us.
但当我们一次又一次地利用他们来满足我们的需求时，现在照顾我们就成了他们的工作。
And most parents that do this, and I see this all the time, are not setting out and saying, "I'm going to use my child to make me happy." They really have the best intentions, and it probably comes out of however they were shaped growing up and how their family was shaped growing up.
大多数这样做的父母（我一直都看到这一点）并不是一开始就说：“我要利用我的孩子让我快乐。”他们确实有最好的意图，这可能源于他们的成长过程以及他们的家庭的成长过程。
But I see this with my kids.
但我在我的孩子身上看到了这一点。
Sometimes I come home, I got two, they're six and three, and I come home from work and they're like, "Daddy, daddy, daddy!" And they're running to me, and they jump on me, and it feels amazing.
有时我回家，我有两个，他们是六个和三个，我下班回家，他们就像，“爸爸，爸爸，爸爸！”他们向我跑来，跳到我身上，这感觉太棒了。
And other times I walk in and they've got a show on or something, and I'm like, "Hey, kids," and they don't even say anything.
有时我走进去，他们正在表演什么，我就会说，“嘿，孩子们”，他们甚至什么也没说。
Now, that doesn't feel great, but what I know is that doesn't mean they don't love me.
现在，这感觉不太好，但我知道这并不意味着他们不爱我。
If every day I came home and they were in the middle of something, I force them to get up and give me a hug, you do this once, it's not going to be a problem necessarily.
如果每天我回到家，他们正在做某事，我就强迫他们站起来拥抱我，你这样做一次，这不一定会成为问题。
But if I did that every day, and now I need them to give me a hug in order for me to feel safe and comfortable coming in the home or just feel happy, they're going to start having the job of, we got to hug Daddy in order for him to have a nice evening.
但如果我每天都这样做，现在我需要他们给我一个拥抱，以便让我在回家时感到安全和舒适，或者只是感到快乐，他们将开始做这样的工作，我们必须拥抱爸爸，以便他度过一个美好的夜晚。
And that's a big job for a little kid to have.
对于一个小孩子来说，这是一项艰巨的任务。
And I see that play out a lot in the people that come to us in that they've unconsciously been assigned these roles in childhood like they're the hero of the family.
我发现这种情况在来到我们这里的人们身上体现得淋漓尽致，因为他们在童年时就被无意识地分配了这些角色，就像他们是家庭的英雄一样。
We can use those, the terms, or the scapegoat.
我们可以使用这些、术语或替罪羊。
But really, what was the job that they were given?
但实际上，他们被分配的工作是什么？
It's my job to take care of Mom and Dad.
照顾爸爸妈妈是我的工作。
Maybe they were in the middle of the relationship, or if Mom and Dad are fighting all the time.
也许他们正处于恋爱关系中，或者妈妈和爸爸一直在吵架。
But kids are often assigned these roles early on, and then they don't know how to shed them later on, and so then they just use that role later in life.
但孩子们往往很早就被分配了这些角色，然后他们不知道如何在以后摆脱这些角色，所以他们只是在以后的生活中使用这个角色。
My field is full of people who are assigned roles, the therapists and nurses and things like that.
我的领域充满了被分配角色的人，治疗师和护士等等。
We want to care for people.
我们想要关心人们。
But it's hard to parse some of that stuff apart, because we don't want to blame parents for how their kids end up, but when we're doing work with our clients, we want to understand the patterns that were developed, not to blame them, but to start understanding what were the systemic challenges in the family system so that we can develop and deploy systemic solutions for them.
但很难将其中一些东西分开，因为我们不想因为孩子的结局而责怪父母，但当我们与客户合作时，我们希望了解所形成的模式，不是责怪他们，而是开始了解家庭系统中的系统性挑战是什么，以便我们可以为他们开发和部署系统性解决方案。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。
AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also contains adaptogens.
AG1 是一种维生素矿物质益生菌饮料，还含有适应原。
I started taking AG1 way back in 2012, long before I even knew what a podcast was.
早在 2012 年，我就开始学习 AG1，当时我什至还不知道什么是播客。
I started taking it, and I still take it every single day because it ensures that I meet my quota for daily vitamins and minerals, and it helps make sure that I get enough prebiotics and probiotics to support my gut health.
我开始服用它，并且仍然每天服用，因为它可以确保我满足每日维生素和矿物质的配额，并且有助于确保我获得足够的益生元和益生菌来支持我的肠道健康。
Over the past 10 years, gut health has emerged as something that we realize is important not only for the health of our digestion, but also for our immune system and for the production of neurotransmitters and neuromodulators, things like dopamine and serotonin.
在过去的十年里，我们认识到肠道健康不仅对消化系统的健康很重要，而且对我们的免疫系统以及神经递质和神经调节剂（如多巴胺和血清素）的产生也很重要。
In other words, gut health is critical for proper brain function.
换句话说，肠道健康对于大脑的正常功能至关重要。
Now, of course, I strive to eat healthy whole foods from unprocessed sources for the majority of my nutritional intake, but there are a number of things in AG1, including specific micronutrients, that are hard or impossible to get from whole foods.
当然，现在我努力吃来自未加工来源的健康天然食品作为我摄入的大部分营养，但 AG1 中有很多东西，包括特定的微量营养素，很难或不可能从天然食品中获取。
So by taking AG1 daily, I get the vitamins and minerals that I need, along with the probiotics and prebiotics for gut health, and in turn, brain and immune system health, and the adaptogens and critical micronutrients that are essential for all organs and tissues of the body.
因此，通过每天服用 AG1，我可以获得所需的维生素和矿物质，以及有益于肠道健康、大脑和免疫系统健康的益生菌和益生元，以及对身体所有器官和组织至关重要的适应原和关键微量营养素。
So anytime somebody asks me if they were to only take one supplement, what that supplement should be, I always say AG1, because AG1 supports so many different systems in the brain and body that relate to our mental health, physical health, and performance.
因此，每当有人问我是否只服用一种补充剂时，我总是说 AG1，因为 AG1 支持大脑和身体中与我们的心理健康、身体健康和表现相关的许多不同系统。
If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman。
For this month only, April 2025, AG1 is giving away a free one-month supply of omega-3 fish oil, along with a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2.
仅在 2025 年 4 月这个月，AG1 将免费赠送一个月的 omega-3 鱼油，以及一瓶维生素 D3 加 K2。
As I've highlighted before on this podcast, omega-3 fish oil and vitamin D3 plus K2 have been shown to help with everything from mood and brain health to heart health and healthy hormone production and much more.
正如我之前在本播客中强调的那样，omega-3 鱼油和维生素 D3 加 K2 已被证明有助于改善从情绪和大脑健康到心脏健康和健康激素产生等各个方面。
Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman to get the free one-month supply of omega-3 fish oil plus a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2 with your subscription.
再次强调，您可以通过 Drinkag1.com/huberman 订阅，免费获得一个月的 omega-3 鱼油以及一瓶维生素 D3 和 K2。
Today's episode is also brought to us by LMNT.
今天的节目也是LMNT给我们带来的。
LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need but nothing you don't.
LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您需要的一切，但没有您不需要的。
That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in the correct ratios, but no sugar.
这意味着电解质、钠、镁和钾的比例都正确，但不含糖。
Proper hydration is critical for optimal brain and body function.
适当的水合作用对于大脑和身体的最佳功能至关重要。
Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish cognitive and physical performance.
即使是轻微程度的脱水也会降低认知和身体表现。
It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes.
获得充足的电解质也很重要。
The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, are vital for the functioning of all the cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells.
电解质（钠、镁和钾）对于体内所有细胞（尤其是神经元或神经细胞）的功能至关重要。
Drinking LMNT dissolved in water makes it extremely easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes.
饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT 可以非常轻松地确保您获得足够的水分和电解质。
To make sure that I'm getting proper amounts of hydration and electrolytes, I dissolve one packet of LMNT in about 16 to 32 ounces of water when I wake up in the morning, and I drink that basically first thing in the morning.
为了确保我获得适量的水合作用和电解质，当我早上醒来时，我将一包 LMNT 溶解在大约 16 至 32 盎司的水中，并且我基本上早上第一件事就是喝它。
I also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and therefore losing a lot of water and electrolytes.
我还会在进行任何体育锻炼时饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT，尤其是在炎热的天气里，因为我会大量出汗，从而失去大量的水和电解质。
They have a bunch of different great-tasting flavors of LMNT.
他们有多种不同口味的 LMNT。
They have watermelon, citrus, et cetera.
他们有西瓜、柑橘等。
Frankly, I love them all.
坦白说，我爱他们所有人。
If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with the purchase of any LMNT drink mix.
如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman，购买任何 LMNT 混合饮料即可领取免费 LMNT 样品包。
Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.
再次强调，请访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman 索取免费样品包。
There's this thing that happens around any conversation about addiction where at some point, any logical listener starts to say, "Okay, well, and it sounds like everyone's addicted to something." And it's so hard to stay right between the lane lines of healthy, because I'm not speaking for myself because I'm not a drinker, but I like a drink at the end of the day.
在任何有关成瘾的谈话中都会发生这样的事情，在某个时刻，任何有逻辑的听众都会开始说，“好吧，好吧，听起来每个人都对某种东西上瘾了。”保持健康的界限非常困难，因为我不是为自己说话，因为我不喝酒，但我喜欢在一天结束时喝一杯。
It helps me relax, makes me a better parent, makes me a better spouse, and I like it.
它帮助我放松，让我成为更好的父母，让我成为更好的配偶，我喜欢它。
Is it my spiritual higher power?
难道是我的精神高等力量？
No, but I like it.
不，但我喜欢它。
Would I take 30 days off?
我可以请30天假吗？
Prefer not to, but I'm not addicted.
我不想这么做，但我不上瘾。
But then you think, okay, well, a kid that likes playing video games, it lets him connect with his friends.
但你会想，好吧，一个喜欢玩电子游戏的孩子，这可以让他与朋友联系。
He's doing it a bit excessively, but is he addicted?
他这样做有点过分了，但他上瘾了吗？
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, obviously if it's harming people's profession, it's harming their relationships in very overt ways, then we place it into the category of addiction.
好吧，显然，如果它损害了人们的职业，它以非常明显的方式损害了他们的关系，那么我们就把它归入成瘾的范畴。
But there's this thing that happens in these conversations around addiction where people start to go, "Okay, it sounds like I can't really enjoy anything that much because then it takes over everything." I'll come clean.
但在有关成瘾的对话中，人们开始说：“好吧，听起来我不能真正享受任何事情，因为那样它就会接管一切。”我会坦白的。
I've worked anywhere from 10 to 16 hours a day, five to six days a week on average since I was 19.
从 19 岁起，我每天工作 10 到 16 个小时，平均每周工作 5 到 6 天。
Am I a work addict?
我是一个工作成瘾者吗？
Workaholic?
工作狂？
Maybe, but I love my work and it's done wonderful things for my life.
也许吧，但我热爱我的工作，它为我的生活带来了美妙的事情。
And I have a life that I wouldn't trade for anything.
我拥有我不会用任何东西交换的生活。
Did I miss out on a lot of things?
我是不是错过了很多事情？
Probably.
大概。
But I also love the life I've lived and that I continue to live.
但我也热爱我已经过的以及我将继续过的生活。
And a lot of that comes from the relationships and experiences I've had through work.
其中很大一部分来自于我在工作中获得的人际关系和经验。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, at some point, this is where diagnostic criteria become handy, but I do like the fact that we have a litmus test now.
因此，在某些时候，诊断标准变得很方便，但我确实喜欢我们现在有石蕊测试这一事实。
Could you take 30 days away from it and not completely lose your mind?
你能花30天时间远离它而不完全失去理智吗？
Or could you just take 30 days away from it?
或者你可以暂时休息 30 天吗？
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If I didn't work for 30 days, that would be very difficult for me.
如果我30天不工作，那对我来说会很困难。
But I could do it.
但我能做到。
So how should we frame this thing of addiction, and so that people can ask themselves, "Do I have it or does it have me?"
那么我们应该如何定义成瘾这个东西，以便人们可以问自己：“我有它还是它有我？”
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah, I think how are you using it, and what is it impacting, if anything?
是的，我想你是如何使用它的，它会产生什么影响（如果有的话）？
But to be able to be honest with yourself about it.
但能够对自己诚实。
It's easy to say be honest with yourself about it, but it's very hard to be honest with ourselves.
对自己诚实说起来很容易，但对自己诚实却很难。
That's where being in a relationship with others, sharing what you're experiencing.
这就是与他人建立关系，分享你所经历的事情。
If you're taking 30 days off, really communicating to somebody else, whether it's a therapist or a trusted friend, how am I thinking about this?
如果你要休息 30 天，真正与其他人沟通，无论是治疗师还是值得信赖的朋友，我会如何看待这个问题？
Am I waking up every day wishing I could be doing this other than something?
我是否每天醒来都希望自己能做这件事而不是做某事？
Am I sitting in a business meeting completely dissociated from what's going on because I'm really focused on that I'm not gambling or that I'm not drinking?
我是否坐在商务会议上完全脱离了正在发生的事情，因为我真正关注的是我没有赌博或我没有喝酒？
You've got to be able to look at what it's impacting in the way that we're thinking and the way that we're feeling.
你必须能够以我们的思维方式和感受方式来看待它所产生的影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can I ask you a question about how it's impacting things?
我可以问你一个关于它如何影响事物的问题吗？
Because one thing I've observed in myself and in others is that sometimes behaviors that if we were to just look at through a kind of tunnel vision, you'd say, wow, this person just works a lot, or this person exercises a lot.
因为我在自己和其他人身上观察到的一件事是，有时如果我们只是通过一种狭隘的视野来看待行为，你会说，哇，这个人工作很多，或者这个人锻炼很多。
But it provides energy that feeds a bigger ecosystem.
但它提供的能量可以滋养更大的生态系统。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It gives me a sense of purpose.
它给了我一种目标感。
I have great relationships through my work and relationships that are not through my work, but it sits not as my higher power, but kind of at the center of my life, and a bunch of other things wick out from it.
我通过工作建立了良好的关系，也通过工作以外的关系建立了良好的关系，但它并不是我的更高权力，而是我生活的中心，还有很多其他事情从中汲取。
And to remove that thing would be to disrupt the whole web.
删除这个东西就会破坏整个网络。
I think that's sometimes what scares people, especially, again, I can't relate to alcohol specifically, but my friends who have made the decision to try and quit or quit drinking alcohol, for them, it's like their ability to socialize, the lack of anxiety while they're intoxicated, knowing there's something to do for them, as opposed to what they would fill that space with.
我认为这有时会让人们感到害怕，特别是，我不能具体地与酒精联系起来，但我的朋友们已经决定尝试戒酒或戒酒，对他们来说，这就像他们的社交能力，他们醉酒时缺乏焦虑，知道有什么事情可以为他们做，而不是他们会用什么来填补这个空间。
So sometimes I feel like these addictive behaviors fit into a larger ecosystem so that it masks any dysfunction.
所以有时我觉得这些成瘾行为融入了一个更大的生态系统，从而掩盖了任何功能障碍。
But it has this, again, gravitational pull so that it gets to bigger questions of how are we supposed to live our life?
但它再次具有引力，因此它会引发更大的问题：我们应该如何生活？
And I like this quote from St. Augustine, that "A life well lived is a constant reordering of our loves."
我喜欢圣奥古斯丁的这句话，“美好的生活就是不断地重新安排我们的爱。”
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Reordering of our loves, yeah.
重新排列我们的爱情，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Something like that.
类似的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it gets to these questions of what is a good life?
那么这就涉及到什么是美好生活的问题了？
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
This is a great discussion point, that people will come and say, "I just want to be happy.
这是一个很好的讨论点，人们会过来说：“我只是想快乐。
I just want to be at peace." First thing we have to ask them is, what does that mean?
我只想平静。”我们首先要问他们的是，这意味着什么？
We have to define it.
我们必须定义它。
A lot of times maybe they're saying that happiness is kind of the absence of all this bad stuff.
很多时候，他们可能会说幸福就是没有所有这些坏事。
Or that peace is everything outside of me is going okay.
或者说，平静就是我之外的一切都进展顺利。
Everything is fine.
一切都很好。
We've got to really explore with them, how would they know when they got there?
我们必须与他们一起真正探索，他们怎么知道他们何时到达那里？
A balanced life is going to be different for everybody.
每个人的平衡生活都会有所不同。
And especially with behavioral addictions, it's not about necessarily removing those forever.
尤其是对于行为成瘾，并不一定要永远消除它们。
In fact, a lot of those we can't remove.
事实上，有很多我们无法删除。
Food addiction.
食物成瘾。
You can't remove food.
你无法移除食物。
The things around sex addiction.
与性成瘾有关的事情。
I suppose someone could not have sex, but really a lot of that is about connection and relationship and love and intimacy.
我想有人不能发生性行为，但实际上很多都是关于联系、关系、爱和亲密。
Even gambling.
甚至赌博。
People don't have to gamble, but you're dealing with money, and you've got to touch it and spend it and be around it.
人们不必赌博，但你面对的是金钱，你必须接触它、花它并围绕它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, buying a house is an investment.
是啊，买房也是一种投资。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah, or a gamble sometimes-
是的，或者有时是一场赌博——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
...
...
as we've seen.
正如我们所看到的。
And we've got to look at how we're using these things.
我们必须看看我们如何使用这些东西。
And going back to drugs, you look at we've got pain medication.
回到药物上来，你看我们有止痛药。
Aside from being abused, right?
除了被虐待，对吧？
We've got opioid pain medication.
我们有阿片类止痛药。
And then we've got heroin.
然后我们就有海洛因。
And both of them either came from or are derivatives of the poppy, which is a beautiful flower, right?
它们要么来自罂粟，要么是罂粟的衍生物，罂粟是一种美丽的花，对吧？
So we've taken this flower, and we've been able to make these drugs, and one of them Of course, prescription pain abuse and fentanyl that we see, it can be deadly.
所以我们采取了这朵花，我们已经能够制造这些药物，其中之一当然，我们看到的处方止痛剂滥用和芬太尼，它可能是致命的。
But I think an argument could be made that it's probably saved more lives than it's killed when used appropriately.
但我认为可以提出这样的论点：如果使用得当，它拯救的生命可能比杀死的生命还要多。
We're able to have surgeries that we probably never would have been able to have before because of the medications that people can use.
由于人们可以使用药物，我们能够进行以前可能无法进行的手术。
And then we've got people who are either abusing that or taking heroin and dying.
然后我们就有一些人要么滥用海洛因，要么服用海洛因而死亡。
When we started calling it the opioid epidemic, I think 50,000 people died.
当我们开始称其为阿片类药物流行病时，我认为已有 5 万人死亡。
It surpassed the number of the people in the US that died by car accidents.
它超过了美国因车祸死亡的人数。
Last year, it was something like 100,000, right?
去年大概是10万吧？
Where-
哪里——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
100,000 people died?
十万人死了？
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
At least.
至少。
It's more than doubled.
增加了一倍多。
Now it's in a lot of different things.
现在它出现在很多不同的事情上。
There's a lot of kids that are taking something that they think is a less harmful pill, like a Valium or Xanax, and it's got fentanyl in it, and they die.
有很多孩子服用了一些他们认为危害较小的药物，比如安定或阿普唑仑，里面含有芬太尼，然后他们就死了。
It's doubled since we started calling it an epidemic.
自从我们开始称其为流行病以来，这个数字已经翻了一番。
And of course, that 100,000 doesn't include all of the other drugs and alcohol.
当然，这 100,000 并不包括所有其他毒品和酒精。
But it goes back to how did we use it?
但这又回到了我们如何使用它？
We manipulated this flower in a way that we can save lives and kill or die.
我们以一种可以拯救生命、杀人或死亡的方式操纵这朵花。
That's a more extreme example, but how are we using the things in our life?
这是一个更极端的例子，但我们如何使用生活中的东西呢？
Are we using exercise as a way to completely dissociate from things?
我们是否将锻炼作为一种完全脱离事物的方式？
If I take away that exercise, am I going to fall apart?
如果我取消这项锻炼，我会崩溃吗？
Am I not going to be okay?
难道我不会有事吗？
And that doesn't mean don't ever exercise again, but understand if I were to stop for a week, do I fall into a deep depression?
这并不意味着不再锻炼，但要明白如果我停止锻炼一周，我会陷入深度抑郁吗？
Not everybody's going to do that, but if somebody's oriented in the way that it is a problem, that may happen for them.
不是每个人都会这样做，但如果有人认为这是一个问题，那么这种情况可能会发生在他们身上。
And then it begs the question, what am I using this for?
然后它引出了一个问题，我用这个做什么？
What I think is so important about treatment for addiction and then recovery from addiction is that at first it's about eliminating something.
我认为治疗成瘾和戒除成瘾最重要的是首先要消除某些东西。
It's about moving away from something.
这是关于远离某事。
But that's not sustainable.
但这是不可持续的。
Just to cut something out isn't-- Because it's being used for something, to give them that sense of relief or that sense of peace or that sense of connection, spiritual or otherwise.
只是剪掉一些东西并不是——因为它被用来做某事，给他们一种解脱感、一种平和感、一种联系感，无论是精神上的还是其他方面的。
They've got to eventually start building towards something.
他们最终必须开始朝着某个目标迈进。
What's the life I'm going to create?
我要创造怎样的生活？
If you look at the 12 steps, the last part of the 12 steps is to practice these principles in all our affairs, which means go out and build a life.
如果你看一下这12个步骤，这12个步骤的最后一部分就是在我们所有的事务中实践这些原则，这意味着走出去，建立一个生活。
Don't find yourself really small.
不要发现自己真的很渺小。
We were talking beforehand, there was a, I think he was a biophysicist.
我们事先谈过，有一位，我认为他是一位生物物理学家。
I can't remember.
我不记得了。
E.M.
E.M.
Jellinek, he was at Stanford for a bit at the end of his career, and he had done a lot of research on alcoholism and wrote a book in the '50s or '60s called "The Disease Concept of Alcoholism." And out of that book, there was a curve, and you can look this up, it's called the Jellinek curve.
杰利内克（Jellinek）在职业生涯末期曾在斯坦福大学呆过一段时间，他对酗酒做了很多研究，并在 50 年代或 60 年代写了一本书，名为《酒精中毒的疾病概念》。那本书里有一条曲线，你可以查一下，它叫做耶利内克曲线。
I don't think he actually created the curve.
我不认为他实际上创造了这条曲线。
It was credited towards him.
这是归功于他。
In fact, I think he even kind of dissociated himself from it, but it came out of his works, and it starts off with, at the top, and it's for alcoholism, where people start drinking, and it's in the crucial phase as they start drinking more.
事实上，我认为他甚至有点脱离了它，但它来自他的作品，它从顶部开始，它是为了酗酒，人们开始喝酒，而且正处于关键阶段，因为他们开始喝得更多。
And at first, when people are drinking more, their tolerance increases, but they start to experience some problems.
起初，当人们喝得更多时，他们的耐受性会增加，但他们开始遇到一些问题。
They're hungover.
他们宿醉了。
They're late for work.
他们上班迟到了。
They're having arguments.
他们正在争论。
But it's nothing that drastic.
但这并没有那么严重。
And as they keep drinking and descending down this curve, actually, they enter the, I think it's called the critical phase, and that's where actually tolerance decreases, right?
当他们继续喝酒并沿着这条曲线下降时，实际上，他们进入了，我认为这被称为关键阶段，这就是耐受性实际上下降的地方，对吧？
They're dependent on it.
他们依赖它。
They need it just to get by.
他们需要它只是为了度过难关。
They need it to get to work.
他们需要它才能开始工作。
They can't keep the job.
他们保不住这份工作。
They can't keep their relationships.
他们无法维持他们的关系。
Their physical body is starting to fall apart.
他们的肉身开始崩溃。
They're getting sick because of it.
他们因此而生病。
There's a lot of other factors in it.
这里面还有很多其他因素。
And then they come down to the bottom of this, and it's this cycle of drinking and stopping and drinking and stopping.
然后他们就归根结底，这就是喝酒、停止、喝酒、停止的循环。
Drinking until I can't anymore.
喝到不能喝为止。
I'm physically sick, and then going back to it as soon as they can.
我身体不适，然后会尽快回去。
When those people are able to get treatment and find recovery, now the curve starts to go back up, the recovery side of the curve.
当这些人能够得到治疗并康复时，曲线开始回升，即曲线的恢复侧。
And in the beginning, they're not feeling that great.
一开始，他们感觉不太好。
They've lost the thing that helps them get through life.
他们失去了帮助他们度过一生的东西。
But if they can stay in a contained environment, and that contained environment could be a treatment center or a contained environment like in a 12-step program, where they're engaged in something.
但是，如果他们能够留在封闭的环境中，那么该封闭的环境可以是治疗中心或像 12 步计划那样的封闭环境，他们可以在那里从事某些事情。
I don't mean contained by the walls that you're in, but in a community, and they can stay away from it.
我的意思不是说被你所在的围墙所限制，而是在一个社区中，他们可以远离它。
Eventually, they start seeing that, they see in others that they can build a life, that they can go after the things that they wanted to go after, and they start finding pleasure from life rather than from the substance.
最终，他们开始看到，他们在别人身上看到他们可以建立自己的生活，他们可以追求他们想要追求的东西，他们开始从生活而不是物质中寻找乐趣。
They start to be able to handle the stressors of life.
他们开始能够应对生活中的压力。
Their tolerance for stress, instead of their tolerance for alcohol building, their tolerance for stress starts to build.
他们对压力的耐受性开始增强，而不是对酒精的耐受性增强。
And then eventually, they're kind of moving towards what we would call in Maslow's hierarchy of needs, the self-actualization.
最终，他们朝着马斯洛需求层次中所说的“自我实现”迈进。
They're able to build a life that they never thought they could have before.
他们能够过上以前从未想过的生活。
You'll hear people say, "A life beyond my wildest dreams." And for a lot of those people, that's just that I'm able to meet anything with some sort of sense of peace, and when I'm not-- I think recovery is, it's not about finding a, let's just use the word peace.
你会听到人们说：“超越我最疯狂梦想的生活。”对于很多人来说，这只是我能够以某种平和的感觉来应对任何事情，而当我不能时——我认为恢复不是为了找到一个，让我们只用平和这个词。
It's not about finding a sense of peace that you stay in.
这不是为了找到一种让你保持平静的感觉。
Balance is not I'm on both feet standing still.
平衡不是我双脚站立不动。
Balance is like this, right?
平衡就是这样的吧？
And as we're taking risks in life as we should to really build awesome lives, sometimes we're going to feel way off kilter.
当我们在生活中冒着风险，真正建立美好的生活时，有时我们会感觉很不平衡。
But with the recovery process, to be able to recognize when I'm out of balance sooner or out of peace sooner and return to it quicker, recover again and again, and have the tools to know: What are the emotional conditions that I might be facing on every day and what are- What am I made of?
但通过恢复过程，能够更快地认识到我何时失去平衡或更快地失去平静，并更快地恢复过来，一次又一次地恢复，并拥有工具来了解：我每天可能面临的情绪状况是什么？我是由什么构成的？
And who am I that might bring to that?
我是谁，可能会带来这样的结果？
So for instance, something I give to a lot of my clients is, we call it the emotional weather forecast.
举例来说，我给很多客户的东西是，我们称之为情绪天气预报。
The first part of this is they've got to really know themselves, and that's something that we see in 12-step a lot, where we hear if people identify their character defects.
第一部分是他们必须真正了解自己，这是我们在“十二步”中经常看到的，我们听到人们是否发现了自己的性格缺陷。
Not everybody I know is familiar with 12-step, but as part of identifying your defects, you're also identifying your virtues.
我认识的人并不是都熟悉 12 步骤，但作为识别缺陷的一部分，您也在识别自己的优点。
Just like a balance sheet, you want to know your liabilities and your assets.
就像资产负债表一样，您想了解您的负债和资产。
And sometimes those things change.
有时这些事情会改变。
And if something that's a liability in this situation might be an asset in this situation, right?
如果在这种情况下是负债的东西在这种情况下可能是资产，对吗？
If uncontrolled anger and violence in my home when my kids do something wrong, and I'm not doing this, but it is a liability.
如果当我的孩子做错事时，我家里出现无法控制的愤怒和暴力，我不会这样做，但这是一种责任。
If my family's attacked, it's an asset, right?
如果我的家人受到攻击，那也是一笔财富，对吗？
So understanding what these defects and virtue or assets and liabilities are so that I really know myself, and that can be through a process of sharing with others.
因此，了解这些缺陷和美德或资产和负债是什么，这样我才能真正了解自己，而这可以通过与他人分享的过程来实现。
In the 12-step, that's how they do it.
在12步中，他们就是这样做的。
We do it in therapy all of the time to kind of know who I am.
我们在治疗中一直这样做是为了了解我是谁。
Actually, there's a line in one of the AA literature that Bill Wilson wrote, and he gives a definition of humility, and it goes something like this: that humility is an honest recognition of who and what we've become, followed by a deep desire to become who we can be.
事实上，比尔·威尔逊 (Bill Wilson) 写的一本 AA 文献中有一句话，他给出了谦卑的定义，大意是这样的：谦卑是对我们已经成为的人和什么的诚实认识，其次是成为我们能成为的人的强烈愿望。
And it's not about that I'm all bad.
这并不是因为我很糟糕。
It's just to note it, to recognize who I am.
只是注意到它，认识到我是谁。
If I don't know where I'm starting, I can't know-- Just like finding directions.
如果我不知道从哪里开始，我就无法知道——就像寻找方向一样。
If I asked to get directions to the studio, and your team started giving me directions from over the canyon, but I was south of here, they're going to give me the directions to turn left on this road and right on this, and I'm not going to know how to get there.
如果我询问去工作室的路线，你们的团队开始从峡谷那边给我指示，但我在这儿的南边，他们会给我指示在这条路上左转，在这条路上右转，而我不知道如何到达那里。
I'm going to be disoriented.
我会迷失方向的。
I'm going to feel lost.
我会感到失落。
It starts with really knowing where I am, who and what I am.
首先要真正了解我在哪里、我是谁、我是什么。
And from there, then we can start to build a life.
从那里，我们就可以开始建立生活了。
So one of the things I give people a lot is once they kind of understand these assets and liabilities of theirs, to look at each day ahead and say, first we start off with gratitude.
因此，我给人们做的很多事情之一就是，一旦他们了解了自己的这些资产和负债，就可以展望未来的每一天，并说，首先我们要怀着感激之情开始。
It kind of gives a mindset.
它给人一种心态。
And gratitude just isn't about being thankful for things.
感恩并不只是对事物表示感谢。
I really believe gratitude is meeting what is as it is.
我坚信感恩就是满足现状。
When I give people this and when I practice it myself, I try at least to be one of the things I'm grateful for to be something that I'm challenged by.
当我向人们提供这一点以及当我自己实践它时，我至少尝试成为我感激的事情之一，成为我面临的挑战。
And not just to say, I'm going to learn a lesson from this, but I might not know what that is, but to really express gratitude for some challenge I'm having.
不仅仅是说，我要从中吸取教训，但我可能不知道那是什么，而是要对我所面临的一些挑战表示真正的感激之情。
So that's kind of a mindset.
这就是一种心态。
And then the next thing is just laying out your plans for the day.
然后接下来的事情就是制定当天的计划。
And not like a detailed calendar, but I'm going to take the kids to school, go to work, travel, have a business dinner tonight.
不像详细的日历，但今晚我要带孩子们去学校、上班、旅行、吃商务晚餐。
Right?
正确的？
So I kind of know what's happening that day.
所以我大概知道那天发生了什么。
And then from there, look at what's my emotional state currently?
然后再看看我目前的情绪状态如何？
What am I experiencing now?
我现在正在经历什么？
Especially if it's like fears, resentments, anger, guilt, shame.
尤其是当恐惧、怨恨、愤怒、内疚、羞耻等情绪出现时。
It could be something else.
可能是别的东西。
It could just be like I feel really solid today.
也许我今天感觉很踏实。
But when I can take what's going to happen today and what I'm already experiencing, I can look at what I'm doing today and think, there are some character liabilities or defects that might come up.
但是，当我能够接受今天将要发生的事情以及我已经经历的事情时，我可以看看我今天所做的事情并思考，可能会出现一些性格缺陷或缺陷。
If I have to travel today and I've got to take three flights instead of one, I can know that if I know myself, I might say I have the ability to become impatient, controlling, and look at my day to almost predict what are the emotional disturbances that can happen that day.
如果我今天必须旅行并且我必须乘坐三趟航班而不是一趟，我可以知道，如果我了解自己，我可能会说我有能力变得不耐烦，有控制力，并审视我的一天，几乎可以预测那天可能发生的情绪困扰。
And then coupled with the state that I'm in.
然后再结合我所处的状态。
If I'm already upset about something else, I've got a higher likelihood of going into these reactive patterns that I don't necessarily want to go into.
如果我已经对其他事情感到不安，我就更有可能陷入这些我不一定想陷入的反应模式。
And so much like going on a trip where I would look and see what the weather's going to be.
就像去旅行一样，我会观察天气情况。
If it looks like it's going to be rainy the whole time I'm there, I'm going to pack a raincoat.
如果我在那里的整个时间看起来都会下雨，我会带上雨衣。
Now, that doesn't mean I'm not going to get wet, but once I start getting wet, I can go get my raincoat and put it on.
现在，这并不意味着我不会被淋湿，但是一旦我开始淋湿，我就可以去拿雨衣并穿上它。
Same thing in this.
同样的事情。
The last part of it is to look for what I'm going to watch for because of my plans and my emotional state.
最后一部分是根据我的计划和情绪状态寻找我要关注的内容。
Now, I know that I have to watch for being maybe short or controlling.
现在，我知道我必须警惕自己的矮小或控制欲。
I want to watch for these character defects or liabilities.
我想留意这些性格缺陷或责任。
And then what do I want to strive for?
那我到底要努力什么呢？
I'm going to strive for being patient, tolerant, kind.
我会努力保持耐心、宽容、友善。
Now, just because I write this down, just like the rain jacket, doesn't mean I'm not going to experience these things.
现在，仅仅因为我写下这些，就像雨衣一样，并不意味着我不会经历这些事情。
But when I can look at a day as an example, I can break it down and in a chunk where I'm not going to be shocked by I'm being impatient.
但当我能以一天为例时，我可以把它分解成一个大块，这样我就不会因为我的不耐烦而感到震惊。
And as soon as I get impatient, I can remember, oh, this is what I want to watch out for today.
一旦我不耐烦了，我就会想起，哦，这就是我今天要注意的。
And I wanted to strive for being tolerant and patient.
我想努力保持宽容和耐心。
So then I can use one of the tools that I might have that I've laid out.
这样我就可以使用我可能拥有的工具之一。
It might just be if I'm in the airport, walk away, take a breath, and recognize and remind myself, this is what I'm striving for today.
可能只是在机场，走开，喘口气，认识并提醒自己，这就是我今天努力的目标。
And in this exercise, we're putting out in front of us what we might be experiencing based on what we know about ourselves and what we've learned about ourselves.
在这个练习中，我们根据我们对自己的了解和对自己的了解，将我们可能经历的事情摆在我们面前。
And when we can do that, we can start living each day a little bit better.
当我们能做到这一点时，我们就能开始过上更好的每一天。
Or at least I find this with my clients, that they can chunk it down and say they're not surprised by these emotional reactions.
或者至少我在我的客户身上发现了这一点，他们可以将其分解并说他们对这些情绪反应并不感到惊讶。
And like I said earlier, I try to help people learn how to feel bad, to recognize that, okay, I'm feeling disturbed.
就像我之前说的，我试图帮助人们学习如何感受糟糕，认识到，好吧，我感到不安。
I'm in a reaction.
我有反应了
Let me lean into it rather than run away from it.
让我倾向于它而不是逃避它。
And we run away from it in different ways.
我们以不同的方式逃避它。
I might be snapping at the lady at the counter or
我可能会对柜台那位女士厉声斥责，或者
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Might be someone that now I just totally withdraw and don't say anything.
可能是我现在完全退缩并且什么也不说的人。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah, numbing out is very common.
是的，麻木是很常见的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, it is.
是的，确实如此。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I just want to repeat these different categories.
我只是想重复这些不同的类别。
A small list of gratitudes, including perhaps some things that we're grateful that challenge us or-
一小份感谢清单，也许包括一些我们感激的挑战我们的事情，或者-
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
things that we've received or whatever it happens to be, a quick list of gratitudes.
我们收到的东西或者无论它是什么，一份简短的感谢清单。
Plan for the day.
计划当天的事情。
What the internal emotional weather is, like how am I feeling?
内部情绪状态如何，比如我感觉如何？
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Irritated, rested, whatever.
烦躁，休息，什么的。
It could be three or four things.
可能是三到四件事。
What to watch for and what to strive for.
需要注意什么，要努力什么。
I do think it's an extremely useful, obviously zero cost, minimal time investment protocol, for lack of a better word, that everyone, not just people who struggle with addiction, but everyone can benefit from.
我确实认为这是一个非常有用的、显然是零成本、最少时间投资的协议，因为没有更好的词来形容，每个人，不仅仅是那些与成瘾作斗争的人，而是每个人都可以从中受益。
Because I think we tend to be so conscious of what to look for, what to strive for, coming out of a morning journaling or a great night's sleep, but then it's amazing how by 3:00 PM somebody cuts us off in traffic or we're being bombarded with too many things, and all of a sudden we're not necessarily unpeeled, but we're not our best self.
因为我认为我们往往非常清楚要寻找什么、要争取什么、早上写日记或睡了一夜好觉，但令人惊奇的是，到了下午 3:00，有人在交通中挡住了我们的路，或者我们被太多的事情轰炸，突然之间，我们不一定能脱皮，但我们并不是最好的自己。
Do you think there's value in sharing your list with somebody else?
您认为与其他人分享您的清单有价值吗？
Connection with others is so important, especially when I share something like this that's vulnerable with them, because it's not just about holding me accountable, but now I'm expressing it in a way that others see it, and we can have communication with them about having them share back with you, too.
与他人的联系非常重要，尤其是当我与他们分享这样容易受到伤害的事情时，因为这不仅仅是让我承担责任，而且现在我以其他人看到的方式表达它，我们可以与他们沟通，让他们也与你分享。
I have 10 guys that I share this with every day.
我每天都会和 10 个朋友分享这个。
And not that the way that I do things is the way that everybody should, but I ask other people that I give this to to share it, because you're now expressing it, and expressing something kind of brings it more into existence than if I'm just doing it myself internally.
并不是说我做事的方式是每个人都应该的方式，但我要求其他人分享它，因为你现在正在表达它，并且表达某种东西比我自己在内部做更能使其存在。
And we've got to put these things in front of us because we will forget very quickly.
我们必须把这些事情放在我们面前，因为我们很快就会忘记。
Or like you said, coming out of a morning journaling or meditation session feels great.
或者就像你说的，早上写日记或冥想后感觉很棒。
I think most people decide to make a change on one day, and then they don't think about it again in the way that they thought about it for months.
我认为大多数人有一天决定做出改变，然后他们就不会再像几个月来那样考虑了。
Like happens every year on New Year's.
就像每年新年都会发生的那样。
They're not putting it out in front of them every day to be a reminder of what I'm going after, what's important to me.
他们不会每天把它放在他们面前来提醒我正在追求什么，什么对我来说是重要的。
And the brain is very different at different times of day and at night.
而且大脑在白天和晚上的不同时间有很大不同。
One thing that I subscribe to that, separate from this conversation but perhaps relevant is, I don't believe any thoughts that occur between 2:00 AM and 5:00 AM.
我同意的一件事是，与本次对话无关但可能相关的是，我不相信凌晨 2:00 至 5:00 之间出现的任何想法。
I just don't.
我只是不知道。
Whatever comes up, if I happen to wake up in the middle of the night, I've chosen to not believe those thoughts.
不管发生什么，如果我碰巧在半夜醒来，我选择不相信这些想法。
I might write something down, I might have an insight that I'm interested in, or something that terrifies me or whatever, but I just don't believe those thoughts because I've had the experience thousands of times of then going back to sleep, waking up in the morning, being like, "That's ridiculous." That doesn't hold any water anymore.
我可能会写下一些东西，我可能有一个我感兴趣的见解，或者一些让我害怕的东西，但我只是不相信这些想法，因为我有过数千次这样的经历，然后回去睡觉，早上醒来，就像，“这太荒谬了。”那已经不能容纳任何水了。
I think we're so vulnerable in the middle of the night.
我认为我们在半夜非常脆弱。
Our forebrain's shut down.
我们的前脑已经关闭了。
We can't strategize.
我们无法制定战略。
All our safety mechanisms are at their lowest, and those thoughts just don't hold meaning.
我们所有的安全机制都处于最低水平，这些想法根本没有意义。
Now, that's not to say that some night owls might not have some brilliant insights in the middle of the night, so this just relates to me and my schedule.
现在，这并不是说某些夜猫子可能在半夜没有一些精彩的见解，所以这只是与我和我的日程安排有关。
But I do think that we can make a decision to behave one way and do things at 8:00 AM, and by 4:00 PM, as a neuroscientist, I can honestly say that your brain is not the same brain at 4:00 PM that it was at 8:00 AM.
但我确实认为我们可以决定以一种方式行事，并在上午 8:00 和下午 4:00 做事，作为一名神经科学家，我可以诚实地说，下午 4:00 时的大脑与上午 8:00 时的大脑不同。
It's still you, but it's functioning so differently.
仍然是你，但它的运作方式却截然不同。
What's important, how it orders priorities, how it interprets data.
重要的是，它如何排列优先级，如何解释数据。
It's not like a computer.
它不像计算机。
It's a dynamic machine, and at different times of day, you're working with a different set of hardware.
它是一台动态机器，在一天中的不同时间，您正在使用一组不同的硬件。
Literally, certain circuits are more active than others.
从字面上看，某些电路比其他电路更活跃。
So I don't believe that we are capable of self-regulating nearly as well as we could, certainly not perfectly, if we don't have a reminder of our best self, our aspirational self that we carry forward.
因此，我不相信，如果我们没有提醒我们最好的自我，我们发扬的理想自我，我们就不可能有足够好的自我调节能力，当然也不是完美的。
Whether or not it comes through other people or enforcement or ideally comes from inside us.
无论它是通过其他人或强制执行，还是理想情况下来自我们内部。
But the expectation that we are going to spontaneously and impulsively be our best self is one of the biggest failures, I think, of education, and psychology, and medicine.
但我认为，对我们自发地、冲动地成为最好的自己的期望是教育、心理学和医学的最大失败之一。
And evidenced by the fact that I have many colleagues who are scientists and physicians who have terrible addictions.
事实证明，我的许多同事都是科学家和医生，他们都有严重的毒瘾。
Some are sober, some are not.
有些人很清醒，有些人则不然。
These are brilliant people who have all the knowledge in the world about the inner workings of the mechanisms-
这些都是才华横溢的人，他们拥有世界上关于机制内部运作的所有知识——
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that make people addicted-
让人上瘾的——
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
et cetera.
等等。
Anyway, I'm editorializing there a bit, but I feel very passionate about these zero cost tools.
不管怎样，我在那里做了一些编辑，但我对这些零成本工具非常热情。
But I have to say, these tools can make a huge difference.
但我不得不说，这些工具可以带来巨大的改变。
And what do you call this list?
你怎么称呼这个列表？
What is it?
它是什么？
The plan for the day?
当天的计划？
What is this list?
这个清单是什么？
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Just like an emotional weather forecast.
就像情绪化的天气预报一样。
Call it whatever you want.
随便你怎么称呼它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
But I think it can be part of a daily inventory, too, where at night you could look at it and see how you did.
但我认为它也可以成为每日清单的一部分，晚上你可以查看它并了解你的表现。
I think you just talked about being your best self.
我想你刚刚谈到了要做最好的自己。
It's a way to kind of define what our best self is that day.
这是一种定义当天最好的自我的方式。
Because what our best self is is going to change depending on the circumstances we're in.
因为我们最好的自我会根据我们所处的环境而改变。
I've run into problems before in my own life where it's the weekend, and I'm really looking forward to, and let's say I don't do this extra because it's a Saturday, and I'm home, and it's going to be an amazing...
我以前在自己的生活中遇到过问题，周末是周末，我真的很期待，假设我不做这个额外的事情，因为这是周六，我在家，这将是一个令人惊奇的......
I live with four other people, three of which are children.
我和另外四个人住在一起，其中三个是孩子。
They might have other plans.
他们可能还有其他计划。
Or someone gets sick, and we can't go to do the thing that we were going to do, and I can find myself really grumpy and right in those character defects or liabilities.
或者有人生病了，我们不能去做我们要做的事情，我会发现自己真的很脾气暴躁，而且在那些性格缺陷或责任中是正确的。
I also think being your best self isn't never engaging in those.
我还认为，成为最好的自己并不意味着永远不参与这些活动。
It's not never getting angry.
这并不是永远不会生气。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
I remember a teacher I had was talking about, and I can't remember, he was talking about some Indian yoga master, that the student asked them, "Do the masters ever get angry?" And he said, "Of course.
我记得我的一位老师在谈论，但我不记得了，他在谈论一些印度瑜伽大师，学生问他们，“大师们会生气吗？”他说：“当然。
But when they get angry, it's like writing on water.
但当他们生气的时候，就像在水上写字一样。
It's there, and then it's gone." They're not holding onto it.
它就在那里，然后就消失了。”他们没有抓住它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
If you try to write on water, those letters are going to disappear right after you write them.
如果你尝试在水上写字，这些字母在你写完之后就会消失。
There are emotional disturbances that we're going to have, and it's part of life.
我们会遇到情绪困扰，这是生活的一部分。
We can't ignore them.
我们不能忽视他们。
We should embrace them and lean into them.
我们应该拥抱它们并依靠它们。
I think a real secret to having a really fulfilling life is being able to embrace all aspects of ourself, the light and the shadow.
我认为拥有真正充实的生活的真正秘诀是能够拥抱自己的各个方面，包括光和影。
Because we can't just try to run from the shadow and go to the light.
因为我们不能只是试图逃离阴影，走向光明。
They're hand in hand.
他们手牵手。
In fact, they don't exist without the other.
事实上，如果没有对方，它们就不存在。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, because they're both inside of us.
嗯，因为它们都在我们体内。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
And they're both inside of us.
它们都在我们体内。
And they both have their purpose.
他们都有自己的目的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What is the purpose of the shadow in your mind?
你心中的影子的目的是什么？
And for folks that don't know, the shadow, we're using Jungian language here, but, and there probably will be some folks listening that say, and are thinking to themselves, "Well, I've never suffered from an addiction," et cetera.
对于那些不知道的人来说，影子，我们在这里使用荣格语言，但是，可能会有一些人听着说，并自言自语，“好吧，我从来没有上瘾过，”等等。
But what we're really talking about here with this, can we call it an emotional weather map?
但我们在这里真正讨论的是，我们可以称之为情感天气图吗？
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Sure, that's great.
当然，那太好了。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because I like the idea of a map and the forecast component.
因为我喜欢地图和预测组件的想法。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because it's not just how do I feel right now, it's how do I feel right now, what's coming, and how am I going to prepare, and there's some goal setting in it, but you're not actually writing out your specific goals, just-
因为这不仅仅是我现在的感觉如何，而是我现在的感觉如何，即将发生什么，我将如何准备，其中有一些目标设定，但你实际上并没有写出你的具体目标，只是 -
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
what am I striving for, is, I suppose, a goal.
我想，我所追求的就是一个目标。
But what we're really saying is anyone that's ever gotten anxious, anyone that's ever gotten stressed, anyone that's ever gotten angry, whether or not you yell or not, right?
但我们真正说的是任何曾经感到焦虑的人、任何曾经感到压力的人、任何曾经生气过的人，无论你是否大喊大叫，对吧？
What you're talking about is a roadmap for being able to navigate the experience of being human.
你所说的是一个能够驾驭人类体验的路线图。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Right, because what we're striving for is not our specific goals.
是的，因为我们奋斗的并不是我们的具体目标。
I'm not striving for success in this meeting.
我并不想在这次会议上取得成功。
I'm not striving for making this money today.
我今天不是为了赚这些钱而努力。
I'm striving for ways of being.
我正在努力寻找存在的方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
How I'm going to be that day in the face of the stressors, whether that meeting goes well or not, whether I make the money or I don't, whether I get the answer that I wanted or I don't, that I'm striving for this way of being.
那天我会如何面对压力，无论会议进行得顺利与否，无论我是否赚钱，无论我得到我想要的答案还是我没有得到的答案，我正在努力追求这种存在方式。
There's a line that I heard from a country singer once that I think he heard in a 12-step meeting that said, "Peace is not finding calmer seas, it's building a better boat." How are we going to navigate the storm, not how are we going to avoid the storms?
我曾经从一位乡村歌手那里听到过这样一句话，我想他是在一次 12 步会议上听到的：“和平不是寻找更平静的大海，而是建造一艘更好的船。”我们如何渡过风暴，而不是如何避免风暴？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。
Last year I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.
去年，在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我成为了一名功能成员。
Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health.
Function 提供 100 多项高级实验室测试，为您提供整个身体健康状况的关键快照。
This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more.
此快照为您提供有关心脏健康、激素健康、免疫功能、营养水平等方面的见解。
They've also recently added tests for toxins, such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics, and tests for PFAS, or forever chemicals.
他们最近还增加了毒素测试，例如有害塑料中的 BPA 暴露，以及 PFAS 或永久化学物质的测试。
Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas.
Function 不仅提供对您的身心健康至关重要的 100 多种生物标记物的测试，而且还分析这些结果并提供相关领域专家的顶级医生的见解。
For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood.
例如，在我第一次使用 Function 进行测试时，我发现我的血液中汞含量升高。
Function not only helped me detect that, but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, N-acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification.
功能不仅帮助我发现了这一点，还为我提供了如何最好地降低汞含量的见解，其中包括限制我的金枪鱼摄入量，我一直在吃大量金枪鱼，同时还努力多吃绿叶蔬菜并补充 NAC、N-乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都可以支持谷胱甘肽的产生和解毒。
And I should say, by taking a second Function test, that approach worked.
我应该说，通过进行第二次功能测试，这种方法奏效了。
Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important.
全面的血液检测至关重要。
There are so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test.
有很多与您的心理和身体健康相关的事情只能通过血液检查来检测。
The problem is, blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated.
问题是，血液检测一直非常昂贵且复杂。
In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost.
相比之下，Function 的简单性和成本水平给我留下了深刻的印象。
It is very affordable.
这是非常实惠的。
As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.
因此，我决定加入他们的科学顾问委员会，我很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。
If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Function，可以访问 functionhealth.com/huberman。
Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman podcast listeners.
Function 目前有超过 250,000 人的等待名单，但他们正在为 Huberman 播客听众提供早期访问服务。
Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.
同样，可以通过 functionhealth.com/huberman 提前访问 Function。
You alluded to this earlier when talking about balance as a dynamic process, not a static process, that part of peace is knowing that when distress comes, you'll be able to tolerate it.
您之前在谈论平衡是一个动态过程而不是静态过程时提到过这一点，和平的一部分是知道当痛苦来临时，您将能够忍受它。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As opposed to there's no distress.
相反，没有任何痛苦。
And I know people like this, that are constantly trying to move through the channels of life, create their own little estuaries around things so that there's never any disruption.
我认识这样的人，他们不断地试图穿越生命的通道，在事物周围创造自己的小河口，这样就不会受到任何干扰。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
We want to be able to tolerate that distress enough to make choice and respond rather than react to whatever it is.
我们希望能够忍受这种痛苦，以便做出选择并做出反应，而不是对它做出任何反应。
It doesn't mean that we're not going to navigate out of the storm.
这并不意味着我们无法摆脱风暴。
I think of it like this.
我是这样想的。
If we go back into the, I don't know, 17 or 1800s when the only way to get from England to America was to navigate or to sail in a wooden sailboat, sail ship, whatever it was called.
如果我们回到，我不知道，17 或 1800 年代，当时从英国到美国的唯一方法是航行或乘坐木制帆船、帆船，无论它叫什么。
And let's say we took the most experienced sailor with the best ship.
假设我们选择了最有经验的水手和最好的船。
But this time, rather than using his skills of navigation and sailing, he said, "The seas are calm and the weather's good, I must be going the right way.
但这一次，他没有使用航海技术，而是说：“海面风平浪静，天气又好，我一定走对了路。
But if the seas are rough and the weather's bad, I must be going the wrong way." And every time the seas were calm, the weather's nice, he just kept going in the direction he was, but every time he came across waves and rain, he'd turn.
但如果海面波涛汹涌、天气恶劣，我肯定走错路了。”每当海面风平浪静、天气好的时候，他就一直朝着自己所在的方向前进，但每次遇到风浪和雨天，他都会掉头。
Is he ever going to get there?
他能到达那里吗？
Potentially.
有潜力。
Let's say it's calm the whole way.
可以说，一路上风平浪静。
Or he might end up navigating all the way down around South America and then coming back up.
或者他最终可能会一路航行到南美洲，然后再回来。
Neither one of those is the answer.
这些都不是答案。
The answer is that when he meets the storm He can use his skills of navigation as a sailor and understanding the weather and his experience to say, "Okay, this is something I navigate through.
答案是，当他遇到风暴时，他可以利用他作为水手的航海技巧，了解天气和他的经验，说：“好吧，这是我导航的事情。
This is something I navigate around." But he doesn't just react based on the external conditions.
这是我所需要解决的问题。”但他不仅仅根据外部条件做出反应。
And we react constantly to our external conditions based on what we're perceiving is going on.
我们根据我们感知到的情况不断对外部条件做出反应。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
I'll preface this by saying I think, I believe one of our biggest, if not our biggest challenge as human beings and our psychology is that we confuse discomfort with threat and respond to discomfort as if it's threat.
我首先要说的是，我认为，我相信作为人类和我们的心理，即使不是最大的挑战，也是我们最大的挑战之一，那就是我们将不适与威胁混为一谈，并对不适做出反应，就好像它是威胁一样。
And this goes back, I can use the diagnostic criteria for PTSD, not that everybody that experiences this has PTSD, but when you look at the diagnostic criteria in the DSM-5, which is the most recent version of the diagnostic manual, it says that the person was exposed to death, actual or threatened death, or actual or threatened violence, or actual or threatened sexual violence.
这可以追溯到，我可以使用 PTSD 的诊断标准，并不是每个经历过这种情况的人都患有 PTSD，但是当你查看 DSM-5（诊断手册的最新版本）中的诊断标准时，它说该人遭受过死亡、实际或威胁死亡、或实际或威胁性暴力、或实际或威胁性暴力。
In the DSM-4, it said real or perceived.
在DSM-4中，它表示真实的或感知的。
And what that means is, we can have a similar or exact reaction to something that is actually happening, like you're attacking me, hopefully you're not going to attack me, but like you were, as if you threaten to attack me.
这意味着，我们可以对实际发生的事情做出类似或准确的反应，就像你在攻击我，希望你不会攻击我，但就像你以前一样，就好像你威胁要攻击我一样。
If I believe that I'm in danger, then I'm going to have the same fight or flight response or the same reaction in my body as if I am actually in danger.
如果我相信自己处于危险之中，那么我的身体就会产生同样的战斗或逃跑反应，或者就像我真的处于危险之中一样。
It's interesting that I think our legal system recognizes this, in that you can be arrested for assault or battery.
有趣的是，我认为我们的法律体系认识到这一点，因为你可能因袭击或殴打而被捕。
Battery is you hit me.
电池是你打我的。
Assault is you threaten to hit me or threaten to kill me.
攻击是指你威胁要打我或威胁要杀我。
We actually, in a way, recognize this idea of perception in our legal system.
实际上，在某种程度上，我们在我们的法律体系中认识到这种感知的概念。
It's also, I believe, what the, forgive me for saying it in this way, but the, quote-unquote, "success of terrorism" is.
我相信，请原谅我这样说，但“恐怖主义的成功”是什么？
It's not that this event happens, it's that we leave that event thinking, it's not that those buildings came down, it's that we believe that all of the buildings are going to come down, right?
并不是这个事件发生了，而是我们在离开该事件时思考，不是那些建筑物倒塌了，而是我们相信所有建筑物都会倒塌，对吗？
It's terror.
这是恐怖。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think that because we were talking about addiction and now we're talking about perception of threat and distress, I want to make sure that we tie those things back to one another.
我认为因为我们之前谈论的是成瘾，现在我们谈论的是对威胁和痛苦的感知，所以我想确保我们将这些事情相互联系起来。
No, I think this is a very important conversation because at the heart of addiction, but also at the heart of a challenged life, challenged in the ways that life shouldn't be challenging, is this lack of distress tolerance.
不，我认为这是一次非常重要的对话，因为成瘾的核心，也是充满挑战的生活的核心，以生活不应该充满挑战的方式受到挑战，就是缺乏对痛苦的容忍力。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I have a question about distress tolerance, specifically.
我有一个关于抗压能力的问题。
What can we do to increase our distress tolerance?
我们可以做些什么来提高我们的抗压能力？
Like what practices?
比如什么做法？
Maybe we just have to experience distress to know how to navigate distress.
也许我们只有经历过痛苦才能知道如何应对痛苦。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Well, we're going to experience distress.
好吧，我们将会经历痛苦。
We experience it all the time, and you may be able to articulate this even better than I can, but I think we need to look at stress, right?
我们一直在经历它，你可能比我能更好地表达这一点，但我认为我们需要考虑压力，对吗？
Not all stress is bad.
并非所有的压力都是坏事。
We need stress.
我们需要压力。
I need stress to move around in this chair.
我需要压力才能在这把椅子上走动。
I need to be able to walk around.
我需要能够四处走动。
My muscles need to tense, and I need that stress.
我的肌肉需要紧张，我需要这种压力。
Was it Hans Selye's work around eustress and distress?
这是汉斯·塞利（Hans Selye）围绕良性压力和痛苦所做的工作吗？
We're going to experience distress, and it's not about avoiding distress, it's how are we going to walk through that distress.
我们会经历痛苦，这不是要避免痛苦，而是我们如何度过痛苦。
And so I like to break practices down into a couple different ways.
因此，我喜欢将实践分解为几种不同的方式。
So proactive and reactive.
如此主动和被动。
Proactive are going to be things that we schedule.
积极主动将是我们安排的事情。
You talked about yoga nidra.
你谈到了瑜伽休息术。
We can talk about that a little bit more, the non-sleep deep rest, other forms of mindfulness and meditation that actually allow us to raise capacity in our nervous system.
我们可以多谈一点，非睡眠深度休息，其他形式的正念和冥想，实际上可以让我们提高神经系统的能力。
Going to therapy, coaching, being involved in a community, doing physical exercise.
接受治疗、接受辅导、参与社区、进行体育锻炼。
These are things that we're going to schedule.
这些是我们要安排的事情。
Going into the cold plunge, which does allow us to experience something and stay a little bit longer, and it gives us...
进入寒冷的地方，这确实让我们能够体验一些东西并停留更长的时间，它给了我们......
We have one at home, and when friends come over to use it, it's so funny because the first time they're going to do it, and I know you've had a lot of people.
我们家里有一个，当朋友过来使用它时，这很有趣，因为他们第一次这样做，我知道你们已经有很多人了。
I was at your home a couple of years ago, and there was a guy who was doing it for the first time, and he was like a big, I don't remember this, but he was like a big athletic guy, and he was freaking out getting into-
几年前我在你家，有一个人第一次这样做，他就像一个大个子，我不记得了，但他就像一个大个子运动员，他吓坏了进入-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He was terrified
他很害怕
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
...
...
Terrified, right?
很害怕吧？
And it's just cold water.
而且只是冷水。
It could hurt you if you're in there for however long to get hypothermia, but it's not going to hurt you.
如果你在那里呆了很长时间而出现体温过低，它可能会伤害你，但这不会伤害你。
So having practices like that allow us to move through that level of fear can translate to fear or distress, can translate when it comes in real time for something that I know I can walk through this.
因此，像这样的练习可以让我们克服那种程度的恐惧，可以转化为恐惧或痛苦，可以在它实时发生时转化为我知道我可以克服的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, because adrenaline is ubiquitous in stressful circumstances, which is just a bunch of science nerd speak for the stress response is always an increase in autonomic arousal or alertness, a shrinking of the visual field, an increase in heart rate, a tendency to move.
是的，因为肾上腺素在压力环境下无处不在，这只是一群科学呆子的说法，因为压力反应总是自主神经兴奋或警觉性的增加、视野的缩小、心率的增加、运动的倾向。
People will say, "But I freeze." Actually, the freezing response, this is kind of interesting.
人们会说：“但我冻结了。”事实上，冰冷的反应，这很有趣。
My lab studied this.
我的实验室对此进行了研究。
Lindsay Salay published a paper in "Nature" about this in 2018.
Lindsay Salay 于 2018 年在《自然》杂志上发表了一篇相关论文。
She was a graduate student in my lab.
她是我实验室的研究生。
The freezing response is an active behavior.
冻结反应是一种主动行为。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Trying to hide from an intruder in your home in the closet, you're trying not to move.
为了躲避家中的入侵者，你试图躲在壁橱里，尽量不要动。
So people think, oh, people freeze under stress.
所以人们会想，哦，人们在压力下会僵住。
No, the freezing response is an active response.
不，冻结反应是一种主动反应。
The adrenaline dump, as it's sometimes called, is what essentially creates the freeze response.
肾上腺素释放（有时被称为肾上腺素释放）本质上是造成冻结反应的原因。
It's why people can't remember things when they get up on stage if they have a fear of public speaking.
这就是为什么人们如果害怕公开演讲，上台时就记不住事情的原因。
And I forgot to mention in the cold plunge, cold water is a highly reliable way to elicit an adrenaline response.
我忘了在冷水中提到，冷水是引发肾上腺素反应的高度可靠的方法。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's just a great training for, this feels uncomfortable, I want to get out, but I'm going to learn to control my thinking in this uncomfortable circumstance.
这只是一个很好的训练，这感觉不舒服，我想离开，但我要学会在这种不舒服的情况下控制我的思维。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
So that would fit into the proactive, right?
所以这符合主动性，对吗？
So that's something that you can proactively start to be able to manage that adrenaline, as you're telling me, in the body, right?
所以，正如你告诉我的那样，你可以主动开始控制体内的肾上腺素，对吗？
We're able to manage those feelings, because what does it come down to is these sensations in our body that we're experiencing that feel really uncomfortable.
我们能够控制这些感觉，因为归根结底是我们身体中的这些感觉让我们感到非常不舒服。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we might be able to sense them a little earlier-
我们也许能够更早地感觉到它们——
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
if we have some training.
如果我们有一些训练的话。
I just want to throw in one little science tidbit as long as we're talking about using cold as a way to manage distress tolerance, is that the first 15 to 20 seconds after the adrenaline response hits, and it hits very fast, your forebrain, which is involved in all your contextual decision-making and clean, clear strategies of what best to do, is essentially shut down for about 20 seconds.
当我们谈论使用寒冷作为管理应激耐受性的一种方法时，我只想加入一个小科学趣闻，那就是，在肾上腺素反应发生后的前 15 到 20 秒，而且反应速度非常快，你的前脑基本上会关闭大约 20 秒，它参与你所有的情境决策和清晰、明确的最佳行动策略。
If you can make it 20 seconds-
如果你能坚持20秒-
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you have a far better chance of not doing something really stupid and doing something that's very adaptive.
你更有可能不做真正愚蠢的事情，而做一些适应性很强的事情。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now, there may be circumstances where you don't have 20 seconds.
现在，在某些情况下您可能没有 20 秒的时间。
But if under stress and riding out that 20 seconds is generally going to be a very adaptive approach, because then your forebrain comes back, quote unquote, online, and you can really start to make strategic decisions based on those particular circumstances.
但如果在压力下度过这 20 秒，通常会是一个非常适应性的方法，因为然后你的前脑会回来，在网上引用不引用的内容，你就可以真正开始根据这些特定情况做出战略决策。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Right.
对。
And so that's what's happening when we get experienced, some people say get triggered by something that's uncomfortable for us.
这就是当我们有经验时会发生的事情，有些人说我们会被一些让我们不舒服的事情触发。
You get a text message from your boss or your partner that says, "We need to talk later." A lot of people, I don't know about you, but when I get, "We need to talk later," it's not my favorite text in the world to get.
您收到老板或合作伙伴发来的短信：“我们需要稍后再谈。”很多人，我不了解你们，但当我听到“我们稍后再谈”时，这不是我最喜欢听到的文字。
So someone might get that text, and then they immediately go into their perception or their beliefs or their narrative about what that means.
因此，有人可能会收到该文本，然后他们立即进入他们的感知、信仰或叙述，了解其含义。
"I'm going to be rejected.
“我会被拒绝。
This is going to be disappointing.
这将会令人失望。
It's going to be really hard." And those perceptions or beliefs are coming out of their past.
这将会非常困难。”这些看法或信念来自他们的过去。
So now sitting there looking at a text message, which is really just a neutral...
所以现在坐在那里看着一条短信，这实际上只是一个中立的......
All events are neutral.
所有事件都是中立的。
We bring the meaning to them, and we want to bring meaning to them, but it's just words on a screen, and we don't even know what it means yet.
我们给他们带来意义，我们想给他们带来意义，但这只是屏幕上的文字，我们甚至还不知道它意味着什么。
You're looking at those, and you're not even in the present that more, you're in the past.
你看着这些，你甚至不再处于现在，你已经处于过去了。
And we're never really out of the present.
我们永远不会真正脱离当下。
People say, "Get present." That's the only place we live.
人们说：“到场吧。”那是我们唯一居住的地方。
It's where are we oriented?
这是我们的导向？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Past, present, or future.
过去、现在或未来。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
In this moment, now that I'm going into this narrative from all the other times that I was, let's say, I'm making up that I'm being rejected or I'm not going to get what I want.
此刻，既然我要从所有其他时间开始讲述这个故事，那么可以说，我正在弥补我被拒绝的事实，或者我不会得到我想要的东西。
Now I'm oriented to the past.
现在我面向过去。
We can say I'm disoriented in that moment.
可以说，那一刻我迷失了方向。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or to the future.
或者到未来。
You're anticipating what might be said, what's going to happen.
你期待着会说什么、会发生什么。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're out of the moment.
你已经没时间了。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
But I would say that the anticipation is still something that's coming out of what we've experienced-
但我想说的是，这种期待仍然是我们所经历过的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure
当然可以
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
...
...
before, right?
之前，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
And then from there, we go into an automatic reaction, and it's like a fight or flight response.
然后从那里，我们进入自动反应，就像战斗或逃跑反应。
It might not seem like that because we might not be thinking, "I'm going to die from this." We might be thinking, "I'm not going to be okay." And what is, "I'm not going to be okay," that gets carried out, and it's triggered in the body, I would say, in the same way as, "I'm at threat.
看起来可能并非如此，因为我们可能不会想：“我会因此而死。”我们可能会想：“我不会好起来的。”什么是“我不会好起来”，它被执行，并且它在体内被触发，我会说，就像“我受到威胁”一样。
I'm in danger." And this is where we're confusing discomfort, because even if I am going to be, "Not going to get the answer I want," or, "I'm going to be abandoned," it's not life-threatening.
我有危险了。”这就是我们感到困惑的不适之处，因为即使我会“得不到我想要的答案”，或者“我将被抛弃”，也不会危及生命。
It's not actually threatening.
这实际上并不是威胁。
It's perceived threat.
这是感知到的威胁。
But I respond to that perceived threat as if it's actual threat.
但我对这种感知到的威胁的反应就好像它是真正的威胁一样。
And I might respond by going after the person, like, "I need to know right now," being obsessive about it.
我可能会通过追随这个人来回应，比如“我现在需要知道”，对此非常着迷。
I might respond by withdrawing completely and hiding from it.
我的反应可能是完全退出并躲避它。
But it creates this cycle of an automatic reaction to things that doesn't allow me to build tolerance for that stressor.
但它造成了这种对事物的自动反应的循环，不允许我对压力源建立容忍度。
The solution to that is first be aware that that's happening.
解决这个问题的方法是首先意识到这种情况正在发生。
And once you're aware that that happens, and it happens to us all the time, once I recognize that I'm in this cycle below, to find a way to stop, to intervene on that, to take a break from it.
一旦你意识到这种情况发生了，而且这种情况一直发生在我们身上，一旦我认识到我正处于下面的这个循环中，就会找到一种方法来停止、干预、休息一下。
It might be just those 20 seconds.
可能就只有那20秒。
It might be taking a few breaths.
可能需要几次呼吸。
It might be walking away from it.
它可能正在远离它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can I interject something there?
我可以在那里插入一些东西吗？
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because one thing that stemmed out of a prior conversation we had is I think, these aspirational responses of, okay, the stressor hits, I'm going to create the gap between stimulus and response that, was it Viktor Frankl or something like-
因为我们之前的谈话中产生的一件事是，我认为，这些渴望的反应，好吧，压力源来袭，我将在刺激和反应之间制造差距，是维克多·弗兰克尔还是类似的人——
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
referred to.
提到的。
It sounds wonderful, but in real time-
听起来很美妙，但实际上——
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
It's very hard
很难
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
everything's different.
一切都不同了。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
It's very hard.
这很难。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Everything's different.
一切都不一样了。
And so, what can we do to prepare?
那么，我们可以做哪些准备呢？
What are the things?
到底是什么东西呢？
I like this notion of proactive tools that we can schedule, cold plunge being one of them.
我喜欢这种我们可以安排的主动工具的概念，冷跳就是其中之一。
We'll talk about yoga nidra and some other things.
我们将讨论瑜伽休息术和其他一些事情。
But one of the things that I've learned is that there are sensations in the body that come about, and it will be different for different people.
但我学到的一件事是，身体会产生一些感觉，而且对于不同的人来说会有所不同。
But there are sensations in my body that come about very fast because the adrenaline response is fast.
但我身体里的感觉来得非常快，因为肾上腺素反应很快。
And the more that I pay attention to those-
我越关注那些——
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the more I'm able to pick up on them at earlier stages of the stress response.
我越能在压力反应的早期阶段发现它们。
Kind of like seeing a big wave coming-
有点像看到大浪袭来——
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
from further out.
从更远的地方。
And the yogis talked about this.
瑜伽士们谈到了这一点。
I learned about this also from you, that in meditation, we can start to see the quote, it's mystical language, but the subtle ripples of our perception.
我也从你那里了解到这一点，在冥想中，我们可以开始看到这句话，它是神秘的语言，但却是我们感知的微妙涟漪。
Whereas when we're going through life and we're just kind of around-
而当我们经历人生时，我们就在周围——
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's like being on a train, and we're just seeing stuff go by all the time.
就像在火车上一样，我们总是看到事物从身边经过。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
I think the concept is stilling leads to seeing.
我认为这个概念仍然存在导致看到。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love that.
我喜欢那个。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
The more that we can still the mind, the easier we can see what's actually happening versus what we perceive is happening.
我们的心越平静，我们就越容易看到实际发生的事情与我们感知到的正在发生的事情。
So what you say is so true that it is hard if the first step is to, after we recognize that this is something happening, is to stop when we're in the middle of a response, how do we stop?
所以你说的是真的，如果我们认识到这件事正在发生，第一步是在我们做出反应的时候停下来，那么我们该如何停下来呢？
Something that I work with the people, and I actually heard you talk about in a different way that I really appreciated in one of your Essentials podcasts, where in that moment, when we're in that reaction, the sympathetic nervous system has been activated.
我与人们一起工作的一些事情，实际上我听到你以一种不同的方式谈论，我在你的一个 Essentials 播客中非常欣赏，在那一刻，当我们处于那种反应时，交感神经系统被激活了。
The solution, though, is not to deactivate the sympathetic, it's to activate the parasympathetic So our practices and tools that I think are the most beneficial is how do we activate the parasympathetic?
不过，解决方案不是停用交感神经，而是激活副交感神经。所以我认为最有益的做法和工具是我们如何激活副交感神经？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
A great question to ask ourselves once we recognize that we're in some sort of stress response, I like to tell people to ask, "Am I or is anybody around me in immediate physical danger?" And if the answer is no-- First off, if I can ask that question, it's probably the answer is no. But most of the things that we experience every day are not life-threatening.
一旦我们认识到自己正处于某种压力反应中，这是一个很好的问题，我喜欢告诉人们问自己：“我或我周围的人是否面临直接的人身危险？”如果答案是否定的——首先，如果我可以问这个问题，答案可能是否定的。但我们每天经历的大多数事情并不危及生命。
Actually, probably the thing that we experience every day that's most life-threatening, that doesn't bother most of us, is driving in a car, right?
事实上，我们每天都会经历的最危及生命的事情，但对我们大多数人来说并不困扰，就是开车，对吧？
And we're hurtling down the road and just trusting that someone's not going to cross over that other line.
我们在路上疾驰，只是相信有人不会越过另一条线。
But that won't scare us.
但这不会吓到我们。
But getting someone that you're in a committed relationship with or that you're emotionally attached to that says something you don't like might throw you into a spiral.
但是，如果某个与你有忠诚关系的人或者你在情感上依恋的人说出了你不喜欢的事情，可能会让你陷入困境。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It speaks to the unbelievably powerful aspect of human connection.
它说明了人与人之间的联系具有令人难以置信的强大力量。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Likewise, with the earlier example of the kid in video games, we think about this kid and the video game as the only players in the interaction.
同样，对于前面电子游戏中的孩子的例子，我们认为这个孩子和电子游戏是交互中的唯一玩家。
But to take a video game away from a kid is to also remove him from his social context.
但让孩子远离电子游戏也就意味着将他从社交环境中剔除。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We know that social isolation is one of the most potent stressors for any mammal, especially humans.
我们知道，对于任何哺乳动物，尤其是人类来说，社会孤立是最有力的压力源之一。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
From what I've read, tribes would basically shame someone out of it if they did something really terrible.
据我所知，如果某人做了非常可怕的事情，部落基本上会羞辱他们。
They would send them out of the tribe, and that was like death.
他们会把他们赶出部落，那就像死亡一样。
They only survived together.
他们只能一起生存。
Now we can live alone because of technology and human advancement, live physically alone.
现在，由于技术和人类进步，我们可以单独生活，身体上单独生活。
But we're not at the top of the food chain, really.
但实际上，我们并不处于食物链的顶端。
If we were out in the jungle or back when we were nomadic, and we still have that within us, that we need that connection.
如果我们在丛林中或游牧时，我们内心仍然有这种联系，那么我们就需要这种联系。
We need that.
我们需要那个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So we're talking about distress tolerance.
所以我们谈论的是抗压能力。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We have an emotional weather map tool that can prepare us.
我们有一个情绪天气图工具可以帮助我们做好准备。
There are things that are proactive, like cold plunge or meditation.
有些事情是积极主动的，比如冷水浴或冥想。
In the moment, we can hopefully create more of a gap.
目前，我们希望能够拉开更大的差距。
And of course, we were talking about this in the context of addiction, but as you were saying, with the behavior or the substance is the medicine against discomfort.
当然，我们是在成瘾的背景下讨论这个问题的，但正如你所说，行为或物质是对抗不适的良药。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can you go back to that theme just a little bit to really hammer that home?
你能稍微回到这个主题来真正地强调这一点吗？
That when somebody comes to you, initially, you're saying, "Okay, what are you using?
当有人来找你时，一开始你会说：“好吧，你在用什么？
How often are you using?
您使用的频率是多少？
How is this impacting your life?" Trying to get them to see all that.
这对你的生活有何影响？”试图让他们看到这一切。
But once they move past that, are you trying to get them to see what they're really afraid of?
但一旦他们克服了这一点，你是否试图让他们看到他们真正害怕的是什么？
Let me frame this a little differently.
让我以不同的方式来阐述这个问题。
Many years ago, you said, "It's kind of incredible." We were having an academic discussion, and you said, "It's kind of incredible.
许多年前，您说：“这有点令人难以置信。”我们正在进行学术讨论，你说：“这有点令人难以置信。
If we can tolerate discomfort for one second, then we can tolerate it for two seconds.
如果我们能忍受一秒钟的不适，那么我们就能忍受两秒钟。
If we can take discomfort for two seconds, we can do it for five seconds.
如果我们能忍受两秒钟的不适，那么我们就能忍受五秒钟。
Once you start to realize that all you have to do is experience discomfort as a series of moments, suddenly you realize that you have an immense capacity to manage discomfort." And I was like, I sat with that for a long time.
一旦你开始意识到你所要做的就是经历一系列的不适，你就会突然意识到你有巨大的能力来管理不适。”我当时想，我坐了很长时间。
Why do you think it's so hard for us to do that, even though, in theory, that's exactly how it works?
为什么你认为我们很难做到这一点，尽管从理论上讲，这正是它的运作方式？
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
I think this is where we get hijacked by the part of our nervous system that is kind of binary and looking at it's life or death.
我认为这就是我们被神经系统的二元部分劫持的地方，并关注它的生或死。
If we perceive this as danger, it's going to respond as danger.
如果我们认为这是危险，它就会以危险来回应。
We don't want that part of the nervous system, and we don't want it having discernment.
我们不想要神经系统的那部分，也不希望它有辨别力。
We want it really, when we're actually faced with...
当我们真正面临……时，我们真的想要它。
Say if you and I were walking across the road here and a car's about to hit us and you see it.
假设你和我正在过马路，一辆车即将撞到我们，你就会看到。
I don't want you to stop, breathe, meditate, have compassion for the driver.
我不希望你停下来，呼吸，冥想，对司机抱有同情心。
I want you to react immediately, push me out of the way.
我希望你立即做出反应，把我推开。
Even if we get hurt and break a leg, we need to live.
即使我们受伤了，摔断了腿，我们也需要活下去。
The problem happens when I go home, and I say something to my wife and she disagrees with me, and I react to her like she's a car about to hit me.
当我回家时，问题就发生了，我对我的妻子说了一些话，她不同意我的观点，我对她的反应就像她是一辆即将撞到我的汽车一样。
It becomes an appropriate response at an inappropriate time.
它成为在不适当的时间做出适当的反应。
We don't want to lose that.
我们不想失去它。
And so it becomes so hard because we're in this, I believe, this fight in our nervous system to say, one part of it's saying, "You need to act or you're not going to be okay," and the other part's saying, "I don't want to keep doing this." In your mind, I know that I'm in this room or in your lab with virtual reality goggles on, but that one part of my body thinks I'm falling when really I'm watching a video game.
所以这变得如此困难，因为我相信，我们的神经系统正在进行这场斗争，一部分人说，“你需要采取行动，否则你不会好起来的，”而另一部分人说，“我不想继续这样做。”在你看来，我知道我戴着虚拟现实护目镜在这个房间或你的实验室里，但当我真正在观看视频游戏时，我身体的一部分认为我正在坠落。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So maybe the best we can do is prepare.
所以也许我们能做的最好的就是做好准备。
These proactive tools seem increasingly important to me.
这些主动工具对我来说似乎越来越重要。
Can we talk about Yoga Nidra?
我们可以谈谈瑜伽休息术吗？
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I talked about non-sleep deep rest a lot on this podcast.
我在这个播客上多次谈论了非睡眠深度休息。
Yes, I decided to take Yoga Nidra, which is a thousands of years old practice, and rename it non-sleep deep rest because I wanted more people to do it.
是的，我决定采用瑜伽休息术，这是一种有着数千年历史的练习，并将其重新命名为非睡眠深度休息，因为我希望更多的人这样做。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Thank you for doing that.
谢谢你这么做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've taken some heat, but I wanted more people to do it, and it's a zero-cost tool that I think is very valuable.
我受到了一些批评，但我希望更多的人这样做，这是一个我认为非常有价值的零成本工具。
I learned it from you.
我从你那里学到的。
I went out to where you work and observed that this is the first thing that people do every morning when trying to get sober.
我去了你们工作的地方，发现这是人们每天早上试图保持清醒时做的第一件事。
This is the first thing that you have them do every morning when they're trying to identify and overcome their traumas, including full-blown PTSD.
这是你每天早上让他们做的第一件事，当他们试图识别和克服他们的创伤时，包括全面的创伤后应激障碍。
And I don't want to share some of the stories that people shared out there, but a couple of them were very intense.
我不想分享人们在那里分享的一些故事，但其中一些故事非常激烈。
When I'm talking about PTSD, I'm not talking about had a bad semester in school.
当我谈论创伤后应激障碍时，我并不是在谈论在学校度过了一个糟糕的学期。
I'm talking about people who were co-sleeping with their kid, and the kid died.
我说的是那些和孩子同睡的人，结果孩子死了。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it was a very intense thing to hear those stories, and it was also a beautiful thing to see people's transition through their traumas, in some cases, their addictions, or both.
听到这些故事是一件非常激动人心的事情，看到人们经历创伤、在某些情况下、上瘾或两者兼而有之的转变也是一件美好的事情。
And every day started with an hour of Nidra.
每天从一小时的 Nidra 开始。
What is it about Nidra?
尼德拉到底是怎么回事？
How did you discover Nidra, and how did this come about?
您是如何发现 Nidra 的？这是如何发生的？
Because I think it's an extremely important tool for a number of reasons, but how did you start incorporating this into trauma and addiction treatment?
因为我认为出于多种原因，它是一个极其重要的工具，但是您是如何开始将其纳入创伤和成瘾治疗中的呢？
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
I was working at a place in Central Florida, and near there, it was a treatment center, and not far from there, there happened to be an ashram started by an old Indian guy who had come over from India in the '50s or '60s.
我当时在佛罗里达州中部的一个地方工作，那里附近有一个治疗中心，离那里不远，碰巧有一个静修所，是一个 50 年代或 60 年代从印度过来的印度老人创办的。
He's in his 90s now and is credited as one of the people to bring yoga to the West.
他现在已经 90 多岁了，被认为是将瑜伽带到西方的人之一。
One of many.
许多之一。
It was the Amrit Yoga Institute, and they were running some workshops, and I ended up doing a training there.
那是阿姆里特瑜伽学院，他们正在举办一些研讨会，我最终在那里接受了培训。
That opened a door for me to start doing some other things.
这为我打开了一扇门，让我开始做其他事情。
I'd been practicing breathwork, and this was all part of my own journey.
我一直在练习呼吸，这都是我自己旅程的一部分。
And then got introduced to Yoga Nidra, and it was just a very powerful tool.
然后我接触到瑜伽休息术，它是一个非常强大的工具。
And in these workshops that I was in, I saw some pretty amazing things happen for the people that were taking trainings.
在我参加的这些研讨会中，我看到接受培训的人们发生了一些非常惊人的事情。
We were there for, I remember we were there for, it was a 10-day training, and you could take it as 10 days, or you could take five days and then come back for five days.
我们在那里，我记得我们在那里，这是一个10天的培训，你可以把它当作10天，或者你可以花5天，然后再回来5天。
And there was a woman who had been there for a five day and was coming back.
有一个女人在那里呆了五天，要回来了。
And when she was there at the first part, she was a single mom.
当她在第一部分时，她是一位单亲妈妈。
She had two boys.
她有两个男孩。
They were probably under 12, and she was completely stressed by them.
他们大概还不到12岁，她完全被他们压垮了。
Like completely stressed.
就像完全紧张一样。
She could not almost handle being a mom.
她几乎无法适应成为一名母亲。
And she practiced this.
而她也实践了这一点。
She decided to come to this training, and then she went home, and it was several months in between.
她决定来参加这次培训，然后就回家了，中间间隔了好几个月。
And when she came back, I remember in the opening group, she shared that she'd gone home and had not changed anything.
当她回来时，我记得在开场小组中，她说她回家了，没有改变任何事情。
The only thing she did was practice Yoga Nidra, I think twice a day, in the morning and the evening.
她唯一做的就是练习瑜伽休息术，我想每天两次，早上和晚上。
And she's like, "My boys changed." And I actually don't think the boys probably changed at all, but she was someone who was filled with anxiety and stress, and the kids were picking up on that, and she wasn't able to tolerate the discomfort or distress of her children or boys just being boys.
她说：“我的孩子们变了。”事实上，我认为男孩们可能根本没有改变，但她是一个充满焦虑和压力的人，孩子们也注意到了这一点，她无法忍受她的孩子或男孩只是男孩的不适或痛苦。
I don't even think they were really probably behaving more than an eight- and ten-year-old does differently, but she couldn't handle it.
我什至不认为他们的行为真的可能比八岁和十岁的孩子有什么不同，但她无法处理。
And now she was able to build this distress tolerance by practicing this meditation.
现在，她能够通过练习这种冥想来建立这种痛苦耐受力。
And Nidra means sleep, so it's a sleep-based meditation.
Nidra 的意思是睡眠，所以这是一种基于睡眠的冥想。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Do you want to just briefly describe what it looks like?
您想简单描述一下它是什么样子吗？
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Generally, what it looks like is first a person lays down, and ideally, they'd be laying on their back unless they can't lay on their back, but you lay on your back and get in a very comfortable position.
一般来说，首先一个人会躺下，理想情况下，他们会仰卧，除非他们不能仰卧，但你仰卧并处于一个非常舒适的位置。
It's a guided practice, and one of the reasons it's guided is it becomes a technique that disappears the technique.
这是一种有指导的实践，它受到指导的原因之一是它成为一种使技术消失的技术。
And what I mean by that is if you're sitting doing meditation, and you're doing something where you have to focus on a mantra, this is not an exclusion of that.
我的意思是，如果你坐着冥想，并且你正在做一些必须专注于咒语的事情，这并不排除这种情况。
But when you're doing that, you have to focus on that mantra.
但当你这样做时，你必须专注于那个咒语。
So sometimes having to focus on something can bring you out of it.
所以有时必须专注于某件事会让你摆脱困境。
And in those practices, bringing you out of it is beneficial, too, because you want to be brought out of it, and then you can find ways to get back into it, it being the meditative experience.
在这些练习中，让你摆脱它也是有益的，因为你想摆脱它，然后你可以找到方法回到它，这就是冥想体验。
So you're laying down, and there's generally a series of, I'll say physical movements.
所以你躺下，通常会有一系列的，我会说身体动作。
It's not like yoga doing stretching.
这不像瑜伽做伸展运动。
It might be something like tensing and relaxing your muscles.
这可能类似于紧张和放松肌肉。
It might be something like massaging your face as you're being guided through this to kind of just relax the body.
可能就像在引导您进行此过程时按摩您的脸部，以放松身体。
And after a certain point, and in a lot of the teachings that when I do it or I've been taught, there's a certain point at which all movement stops, and you just want to follow the person's voice.
在某个点之后，在很多教导中，当我这样做或我被教导时，有一个点，所有的运动都会停止，你只想跟随那个人的声音。
In Yoga Nidra or Nidra, we set an intention.
在瑜伽休息术或休息术中，我们设定一个意图。
An intention might be like, "I'm at peace with myself as I am in the world, as it is." Something like that, something that you want to bring in or a state that you want to experience.
意图可能是这样的：“我对自己感到平静，就像我在这个世界上一样。”类似的东西，你想要带入的东西或者你想要体验的状态。
I know that you distinguish, I believe you distinguish non-sleep deep rests like Yoga Nidra without intention.
我知道你会区分，我相信你会无意识地区分像瑜伽休息术这样的非睡眠深度休息。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Generally, without intentions or mystical language.
一般来说，没有意图或神秘的语言。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It involves the I think the most critical part of non-sleep deep rest in Yoga Nidra to me, the overlap in the Venn diagram includes self-directed relaxation.
它涉及我认为瑜伽休息术中非睡眠深度休息最关键的部分，维恩图中的重叠部分包括自我导向的放松。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The ability to do that, which of course, the incorporation of long exhale breathing will facilitate that-
做到这一点的能力，当然，结合长呼气呼吸将有助于-
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because it pushes down on that side of the seesaw that is the parasympathetic nervous system-
因为它向下推跷跷板的那一侧，即副交感神经系统——
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and really gets it engaged regardless of how stressed you are, as you pointed out, getting that parasympathetic nervous system.
正如您所指出的，无论您有多大压力，都要真正投入其中，让副交感神经系统发挥作用。
The idea that people's mind can be active, but their body is still, I think is a very powerful state.
人们的思想可以活跃，但他们的身体却是静止的，我认为这是一种非常强大的状态。
You're not trying to fall asleep, so the end goal is in reach for everyone.
您并不是想入睡，因此每个人都可以实现最终目标。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It isn't like you're going to fall asleep.
这不像是你要睡着了。
It's like, actually, you're going to not fall asleep.
事实上，就像你不会睡着一样。
If you fall asleep, it's okay, but-- And actually, sometimes people think they're asleep-
如果你睡着了，没关系，但是——事实上，有时人们认为他们睡着了——
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but when I'm guiding them, and I'll give a direction to roll over on their side at the end, and they do it-
但当我引导他们时，我会给出一个方向，让他们在最后翻身，然后他们就会这么做——
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but they thought they were asleep.
但他们以为自己睡着了。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What we believe is happening in that is that they're in the brain states of sleep while still being awake.
我们认为，他们在清醒的情况下大脑仍处于睡眠状态。
Once they're in that relaxed space after doing some movement in the beginning, or the space to be relaxed and still, I should say still versus relaxed, still physically, is through different breath exercises, specifically ones that have long exhales.
一旦他们在开始做一些动作后进入放松的空间，或者放松和静止的空间，我应该说静止与放松，身体上仍然是通过不同的呼吸练习，特别是长呼气的练习。
Right?
正确的？
Like you said, it activates the parasympathetic nervous system.
就像你说的，它激活副交感神经系统。
And then
然后
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
guiding them through their body in some way.
以某种方式引导他们穿过自己的身体。
So it might be, there's one called 61 Points where you identify all these different points in the body, starting with the forehead, down to the pit of the throat, and then at all different parts from your shoulder down to your fingers, and then all the way down to your toes.
可能是这样，有一个叫做“61点”的东西，你可以在其中识别身体上所有不同的点，从前额开始，到喉咙深处，然后是从肩膀到手指的所有不同部位，然后一直到脚趾。
And people being able to move their awareness in their body gets them away from that thinking and doing into the more feeling and being.
人们能够将他们的意识转移到身体中，使他们摆脱这种思考和行为，进入更多的感觉和存在。
They're putting their awareness on their body rather than everything external.
他们将意识放在自己的身体上，而不是外部的一切上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One of the great strengths of doing Nidra or NSDR, as it were, is that we take ourselves out of the prediction mode, and we can experience life unfold in real-time moments.
可以说，进行 Nidra 或 NSDR 的一大优势是，我们可以让自己脱离预测模式，我们可以实时体验生活的展开。
It sounds so mystical, but actually it was Josh Waitzkin who was on this podcast, the former chess prodigy, martial arts champion, et cetera.
听起来很神秘，但实际上这个播客的主持人是乔什·维茨金（Josh Waitzkin），他是前国际象棋神童、武术冠军等等。
On the Joe Rogan podcast, he said something that I wanted to share with you, which felt appropriate now, which was, he said there are two ways to go through life.
在乔·罗根播客上，他说了一些我想与你们分享的话，现在感觉很合适，那就是，他说生活有两种方式。
One is, metaphorically speaking, as a passenger in the dining car on a train that's going 80 miles per hour, and you're experiencing what's in that train, and you're seeing things go by.
打个比方来说，作为一名时速 80 英里的火车餐车里的乘客，你正在体验火车上的东西，你正在看到事情的发生。
That's the non-conscious-
这就是无意识的——
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
lower way to experience life, lesser way to experience life.
体验生活的较低方式，体验生活的较少方式。
Where you want to be is strapped to the front of that train, safely, experiencing space and time as they're happening, flowing by you and through you as a series of moments.
你想去的地方就被绑在火车的前面，安全地体验正在发生的空间和时间，作为一系列的时刻从你身边流过并穿过你。
And I really think I credit Nidra and NSDR with an ability to see life unfold as an observer and still have the ability to participate, so you're not dissociated, you're not stepped back, you're not ahead of yourself.
我真的认为我相信 Nidra 和 NSDR 有能力作为观察者看到生活的展开，并且仍然有能力参与，所以你不会游离，你不会后退，你不会领先于自己。
You're right where you need to be.
你就在你需要去的地方。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Does that capture it?
这捕捉到了吗？
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
I believe so.
我相信是这样。
I might take the train example a little bit different direction, where I always will say it's like you're either on the back of the bus and you're being driven around, or you're driving the bus.
我可能会以稍微不同的方向来看待火车的例子，我总是会说，就像你要么在公共汽车的后面，你被驾驶着，要么你正在驾驶公共汽车。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
It's not that you're just on, and he may not have been saying this, but just not on these rails experiencing it like this, that you have control, autonomy, and have the ability to be authentic.
这并不是说你只是在上，他可能没有这么说，而是不是在这些轨道上经历这样的事情，你有控制权，自主权，并且有能力表现出真实。
And authentic in a way not...
并且在某种程度上不真实......
Authenticity gets thrown around and people are like, "I just am who I am." Well, most times when people are doing that, and they're just acting however they're feeling in the moment, they're not who they are, they're who they were, or they're acting out their past experiences.
真实性被抛在了一边，人们会说，“我就是我自己。”好吧，大多数时候，当人们这样做时，他们只是按照他们当时的感受行事，他们不是他们自己，他们是他们过去的人，或者他们正在表演他们过去的经历。
Authenticity in the way that I'm talking is more like auth is the same as in author, right?
我所说的真实性更像是作者的身份验证，对吧？
It's like authorship, that you become the author of your life.
就像作者身份一样，你成为自己生活的作者。
That you're able to write the story going forward because a lot of what we're doing before that is just plagiarizing from our past, stuck in the cycles of our programmed reactive patterns that came out of the ways that we were shaped.
你能够写出未来的故事，因为我们之前所做的很多事情都只是抄袭我们的过去，陷入了我们被塑造的程序化反应模式的循环中。
And things like Nidra, where we can start to activate the parasympathetic nervous system, again, distinct from deactivating the sympathetic, and be able to pause and be able to look at choice.
还有像 Nidra 这样的东西，我们可以开始激活副交感神经系统，这与停用交感神经系统不同，并且能够暂停并能够考虑选择。
In that cycle I was talking about earlier, where we're being reactive, the first thing is the stop.
在我之前谈到的那个周期中，我们处于被动状态，第一件事就是停止。
Well, how do we stop?
那么，我们该如何停下来呢？
It's by building these abilities to have this distress tolerance, even if it's for a few seconds, and take a moment to be able to get present, and what I mean by that is look at what's actually happening.
正是通过建立这些能力，才能拥有这种抗压能力，即使只有几秒钟，也需要花点时间才能进入当下，我的意思是看看实际发生的事情。
This isn't every time someone's sent me a text message, or every time someone's ever abandoned me or disappointed me, or every time I've been afraid.
这并不是每次有人给我发短信，或者每次有人抛弃我或让我失望，或者每次我感到害怕。
It's just this one moment where I get a text that says, "We need to talk later." And from that, now that can break the cycle enough that instead of automatic reaction, I'm in choice, and I'm making a choice out of all options of how I'm going to handle this.
就在这一刻，我收到一条短信，上面写着：“我们需要稍后再谈。”从那时起，现在这足以打破这个循环，而不是自动反应，我可以选择，并且我正在从我将如何处理这个问题的所有选项中做出选择。
Now, it might still mean that I go, "Could we talk about it now?" in a text response.
现在，这可能仍然意味着我会说：“我们现在可以谈谈吗？”在文本回复中。
But that would be very distinct from sending 20 text messages in rapid succession saying, "What do you need?
但这与快速连续发送 20 条短信说“你需要什么？
Why are you doing this?
你为什么要这样做？
Am I in trouble?" Whatever it is we're saying.
我有麻烦了吗？”不管我们说什么。
But you've been able to move to the front of the bus, and now you're driving it, right?
但你已经能够移动到公共汽车的前面，现在你正在驾驶它，对吧？
Instead of being at the effect of life, you're being at cause.
你不是生活的结果，而是生活的原因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I feel like most people learn how to control their body, but most people don't know how to control their mind, meaning they don't know how to control their thinking.
我觉得大多数人学会了如何控制自己的身体，但大多数人不知道如何控制自己的思想，也就是说他们不知道如何控制自己的思想。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
And there's a great line in a Indian text, it's called the "Atma Gita," I think it is, where it says something like, the end of the saying is like, "Man thinks his enemy is out there, but really, the man's uncontrolled mind is his only true foe." I don't know if we need to garner complete control over the mind.
印度文本中有一句很棒的诗句，它被称为“Atma Gita”，我想就是这样，它说的是，这句话的结尾是这样的：“人类认为他的敌人就在那里，但实际上，人类不受控制的思想才是他唯一真正的敌人。”我不知道我们是否需要完全控制思想。
I think the way to do that is to be able to find ways to relax back from what the mind is doing and saying, and like you said, ignoring the thoughts between 2:00 and 5:00.
我认为做到这一点的方法是找到方法从头脑所做的和所说的事情中放松下来，就像你说的，忽略 2:00 到 5:00 之间的想法。
I think there's a lot of thoughts that we have that we can ignore.
我认为我们有很多可以忽略的想法。
Our thoughts are not fact.
我们的想法不是事实。
It's this input that I'm getting, and we tend to grab onto the thoughts that I think that we've had before that have helped us survive situations, even if the way that we've survived those situations is to cause destruction.
我得到的正是这种输入，我们倾向于抓住我认为我们以前曾有过的想法，这些想法帮助我们度过了困境，即使我们度过这些困境的方式是造成破坏。
We know how to live.
我们知道如何生活。
Example would be someone who's in an abusive relationship again and again, right?
一个例子就是一个人一次又一次地处于虐待关系中，对吗？
I've never met that person that said, "I can't wait to get in the next relationship, so it's abusive." It could be a man or a woman.
我从未见过那个人说：“我迫不及待地想进入下一段关系，所以这是虐待。”它可以是一个男人或一个女人。
In this case, let's say it's a woman.
在这种情况下，假设这是一名女性。
Maybe the only men that she was around growing up were controlling or abusive, and she had some experiences with men who were very similar.
也许她成长过程中身边唯一的男人都是控制欲强或虐待狂的，而且她和一些非常相似的男人有过一些经历。
And then That's the environment or the waters that she started to swim in.
然后这就是她开始游泳的环境或水域。
She knows how to survive that kind of man.
她知道如何在这样的男人面前生存。
Or if you're a man, that kind of woman.
或者如果你是个男人，那就是那种女人。
And even if they want that relationship that's loving, caring, kind, and patient, no conflict or not that type of conflict, even though they want that, when they get into it, it doesn't make sense because they've never done it before.
即使他们想要那种充满爱、关怀、善良和耐心的关系，没有冲突或不是那种类型的冲突，即使他们想要这样，当他们进入其中时，这就没有意义，因为他们以前从未这样做过。
They're still going to be potentially relating to that person with these past reactive patterns.
他们仍然可能与具有这些过去反应模式的人相关。
I always say this when my wife and I, we have a great marriage, and great marriage also includes disagreement and argument.
当我和我的妻子有一段美好的婚姻时，我总是这么说，而美好的婚姻也包括分歧和争论。
It also includes love and connection and all of that stuff.
它还包括爱和联系以及所有这些东西。
And when we're in an argument, it's almost like I'm not talking to her and she's not talking to me.
当我们争论时，就好像我不和她说话，她也不和我说话。
It's like my past is talking to her past, and her past is talking to my past.
就好像我的过去在和她的过去对话，而她的过去也在和我的过去对话。
When we can stop and get out of that cycle for just a moment, then we can make a choice that will move us toward the direction that we want to move.
当我们能够停下来暂时摆脱这个循环时，我们就可以做出选择，让我们朝着我们想要的方向前进。
And that choice can seem risky because if we haven't done it before, or let's say that that choice might go against everything that we've developed in order to survive the situations that we've come out of.
这种选择可能看起来有风险，因为如果我们以前没有这样做过，或者我们可以说，这种选择可能会违背我们为了在我们所摆脱的情况下生存而发展起来的一切。
So now, instead of arguing, I'm going to be vulnerable.
所以现在，我不再争论，而是变得脆弱。
That's going to feel very scary.
那会感觉非常可怕。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Lori Gotlib, a psychologist, was on this podcast and saying, and I totally subscribe to this, that people are more willing to stay in a bad situation often, something that's not adaptive for them because it's familiar versus stepping into something that could be better for them.
心理学家洛里·戈特利布 (Lori Gotlib) 在这个播客中表示，人们更愿意经常处于糟糕的境地，因为这种境遇对他们来说是熟悉的，而不是进入对他们来说可能更好的境地，而我完全同意这一点。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Clearly better for them, and they can understand that cognitively, but they somehow cling to what's familiar.
显然对他们来说更好，他们可以在认知上理解这一点，但他们以某种方式坚持熟悉的东西。
I think that's just the way our nervous system is wired.
我认为这就是我们神经系统的连接方式。
Like you said, staying in the battles, repeating the battles that are familiar to us, that we know how to win.
就像你说的，留在战斗中，重复我们熟悉的战斗，我们知道如何获胜。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
We just, instead of authoring something new, we're plagiarizing from our past just again and again.
我们只是一次又一次地抄袭过去的东西，而不是创造新的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I love that phrase, plagiarizing from the past, even though it's something to avoid.
是的，我喜欢这句话，抄袭过去，尽管这是应该避免的。
How often should people do Nidra or NSDR, and when?
人们应该多久进行一次 Nidra 或 NSDR，以及何时进行？
What time of day?
一天中的什么时间？
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
I think I've told you this before.
我想我以前已经告诉过你了。
Probably the best time is to do something in the morning-
也许最好的时间是早上做某事——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
...
...
and in the late afternoon.
下午晚些时候。
Second-best time would be in the evening, and third-best time would be any time you can.
第二最佳时间是晚上，第三最佳时间是任何时间。
So, it's not easy.
所以，这并不容易。
It could be anywhere from 20 to 35 minutes.
时间可能为 20 到 35 分钟。
So it's not easy for people to find that time based on the schedules they have.
因此，人们根据自己的日程安排找到那个时间并不容易。
But set a time that you're going to do it.
但要设定一个你要做这件事的时间。
When we schedule and have proactive tools, we don't know if we're going to need them in that moment.
当我们安排并拥有主动工具时，我们不知道在那一刻是否需要它们。
What it means is, regardless of whether I need it or not, I'm going to do it.
意思就是，不管我需要不需要，我都会去做。
It's like I tell people about therapy and coaching all the time.
就像我一直在告诉人们有关治疗和辅导的事情。
The second-best time to get therapy is when you're in crisis.
接受治疗的第二最佳时间是当您处于危机之中时。
The best time is when you're not.
最好的时光就是你不在的时候。
That's when you can grow.
那时你就能成长。
So scheduling proactively will allow us to either maybe solve a crisis that we're in or help us have the tolerance in that moment.
因此，主动安排时间可以让我们要么解决我们所处的危机，要么帮助我们在那一刻保持宽容。
Like I wake up stressed, and I'm able to then do this practice, and then I'm not stressed, or I wake up not stressed and I'm able to do this, and it helps to build the ability for me to drop back into that state.
就像我醒来时有压力，然后我能够做这个练习，然后我就没有压力了，或者我醒来时没有压力，我能够做到这一点，这有助于建立我回到那种状态的能力。
Because I think as we practice things like yoga nidra, we're able to more quickly move from a dysregulated state to a regulated state.
因为我认为当我们练习瑜伽休息术之类的东西时，我们能够更快地从失调状态转变为调节状态。
I don't know if you've had that experience.
不知道你有没有这样的经历。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Definitely.
绝对是。
I think of stress and alertness and calm, all of it, as the autonomic nervous system.
我认为压力、警觉性和平静，所有这些，都是自主神经系统。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Parasympathetic being calm, calmer states, sympathetic being more activated states, and I think of it like a seesaw.
副交感神经是平静的、更平静的状态，交感神经是更活跃的状态，我认为它就像一个跷跷板。
And I think when we're asleep, we're mostly parasympathetic.
我认为当我们睡着时，我们主要是副交感神经。
When we're very stressed, we're mostly-
当我们压力很大时，我们通常会——
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
sympathetic.
同情。
So it's the balance.
所以这就是平衡。
But the way I think about things like nidra is as a person on that seesaw, you are that person and you're learning to press on one side.
但我对像尼德拉这样的事情的看法就像是一个坐在跷跷板上的人，你就是那个人，你正在学习向一侧施压。
And when you're stressed, the hinge of that seesaw is very tight, so it's hard to activate the parasympathetic much more than when you come out of sleep and you're still a little bit relaxed, perhaps.
当你有压力时，跷跷板的铰链非常紧，因此与你从睡眠中醒来并且可能仍然有点放松时相比，很难激活副交感神经。
And then it's easier to push on that.
然后就更容易推动这一点。
So you might find that learning nidra is easier then.
所以你可能会发现学习休息术更容易。
There's always value to learning how to work both sides of the seesaw.
学习如何在跷跷板的两边工作总是很有价值的。
And actually, sometimes we need to know how to ramp up the level of stress, as in the case with the cold plunge.
事实上，有时我们需要知道如何提高压力水平，就像冷跌的情况一样。
We're deliberately activating the sympathetic nervous system, and we're saying, "Aha, but I'm doing it as this kind of person surfing on the seesaw, and so I know how to balance here, so that when I'm there again, I recognize this place." So that's kind of how I think about it.
我们故意激活交感神经系统，我们说，“啊哈，但我是像跷跷板上冲浪的人那样做的，所以我知道如何在这里保持平衡，这样当我再次在那里时，我就能认出这个地方。”这就是我的想法。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
And also, I have found in practicing yoga nidra or non-sleep deep rest, that it makes other practices easier.
而且，我发现在练习瑜伽休息术或非睡眠深度休息时，它使其他练习变得更容易。
That when I want to do a five-minute meditation.
当我想做五分钟的冥想时。
And one of the things that I think is super valuable for people is to proactively schedule these times that you're going to do longer periods of rest or a practice, but also recognize there might be things that you can do for a minute or two minutes.
我认为对人们来说非常有价值的一件事是主动安排这些时间，你将进行更长的休息或练习时间，但也要认识到有些事情你可以做一两分钟。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is what Pavel Tsatsouline, who is a world-class strength coach who was on this podcast, talks about greasing the groove.
这就是本播客中的世界级力量教练 Pavel Tsatsouline 所说的“保持最佳状态”。
You want to get good at pull-ups?
你想擅长引体向上吗？
Do two pull-ups every time you walk through the doorway-
每次走过门口时做两个引体向上
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
from a pull-up bar.
从上拉杆。
I think metaphorically speaking, the workout in the gym, people think of that as the endpoint.
我认为打个比方来说，在健身房锻炼，人们认为这是终点。
But actually, we used to do physical labor as a species.
但实际上，我们作为一个物种曾经从事体力劳动。
So I look at the workout in the gym as the ability to lift boxes on moving day, to move furniture without getting hurt.
因此，我将健身房的锻炼视为在搬家当天搬箱子、搬家具而不受伤的能力。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love going to the gym, but it's not an end in and of itself.
我喜欢去健身房，但这本身并不是目的。
Same thing like a long run is the ability to go hiking with friends without having to train for it and not worrying about-
与长跑一样，可以与朋友一起徒步旅行，而无需进行训练，也不用担心-
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
gassing out halfway through.
中途排气了。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I think that these practices are preparation for real-life stressors.
所以我认为这些做法是为现实生活中的压力做好准备。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
They're a gym for your mind.
它们是你心灵的健身房。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're the gym for your mind.
它们是你心灵的健身房。
And we don't talk enough about emotional fitness, and the world is clearly metabolically ill with obesity, diabetes, et cetera.
我们对情绪健康的讨论还不够，世界显然患有肥胖、糖尿病等代谢疾病。
But we are also dealing with a massive mental health crisis that I do believe stems primarily from an inability to regulate this autonomic nervous system thing.
但我们也正在应对一场巨大的心理健康危机，我认为这主要源于无法调节自主神经系统。
Because we can say, "Well, sleep's The foundation of mental health, which it is, and physical health.
因为我们可以说，“嗯，睡眠是心理健康和身体健康的基础。
A lot of people have trouble sleeping.
很多人都有睡眠困难。
How to get better at sleeping?
如何让睡眠变得更好？
Get better at relaxing.
更好地放松。
How to get better at relaxing?
如何更好地放松？
Yoga nidra and SDR.
瑜伽休息术和 SDR。
Yeah.
是的。
And then, so I feel like the tools exist, and I'm so grateful that you pointed me in the directions of these tools, and it can be very simple.
然后，我觉得这些工具是存在的，我非常感激你为我指明了这些工具的方向，而且它可以非常简单。
One of my teachers used to say that the breath is the mind made visible, and if you want to change your mind, change your breath.
我的一位老师曾经说过，呼吸是让心变得可见的，如果你想改变你的想法，就改变你的呼吸。
I mean, of course, do a yoga nidra.
我的意思是，当然，做瑜伽休息术。
It might take 30 minutes, right?
可能需要 30 分钟，对吗？
But if you're in a moment where you're feeling really activated, change your breath, specifically a long exhale.
但如果你感觉自己真的很活跃，那就改变你的呼吸，特别是长呼气。
I love that breath is the mind made visible.
我喜欢呼吸是让心灵变得可见的感觉。
That's beautiful and so true.
那真是美丽又真实。
That was Amrit Desai.
那是阿姆里特·德赛。
I should give him credit.
我应该给予他信任。
Okay.
好的。
Wonderful.
太棒了。
It's the quickest way to create an activation of the parasympathetic nervous system.
这是激活副交感神经系统的最快方法。
Quickest way.
最快的方法。
And this is where people will think meditation is so hard, breathwork, which there's many different forms of breathwork, are hard, which they can be, I suppose, hard in the way that we've got to find the time, and it can be uncomfortable, but I'll tell people, "Take a minute and breathe." And if even a minute sounds long, take seven breaths.
这就是人们会认为冥想是如此困难的地方，呼吸，有许多不同形式的呼吸，都很困难，我想，我们必须找到时间，这可能会很困难，而且可能会很不舒服，但我会告诉人们，“花点时间呼吸。”如果一分钟听起来很长，那就呼吸七次。
Who can't take seven breaths at any point in the day?
谁不能在一天中的任何时候呼吸七次？
You're going to do it anyway, right?
无论如何你都会这么做，对吧？
We never aren't breathing.
我们从来没有停止过呼吸。
But if we can bring our attention to that, and you can schedule that like, "I'm going to do that before I get out of the car to go to the office.
但如果我们能引起我们的注意，你可以安排这样的事情，“我要在下车去办公室之前做这件事。
I'm going to do it before I go to lunch, after a meeting, before a meeting." Or you can just say, "Any time that I'm feeling like this, I can take seven breaths." It might end up being two minutes, like a TV commercial.
我会在去吃午饭之前、开会之后、开会之前做这件事。”或者你可以说，“任何时候我有这种感觉，我都可以呼吸七次。”最终可能会是两分钟，就像电视广告一样。
And those things add up, and they build on each other.
这些东西加起来，并且相互依存。
And the more that we practice those, the more that we do raise that capacity to experience distress.
我们练习得越多，我们体验痛苦的能力就越能提高。
First, it helps us activate that part of the system and teaches us, like your analogy in the gym, but we also start building a habit around doing something like this so that we can weather whatever storm's coming, and we start to orient toward it.
首先，它帮助我们激活系统的这一部分并教导我们，就像你在健身房中的类比一样，但我们也开始养成做类似事情的习惯，这样我们就可以经受住即将到来的任何风暴，并开始朝着它前进。
I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Waking Up.
我想短暂休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一“醒来”。
Waking Up is a meditation app that offers hundreds of guided meditation programs, mindfulness trainings, yoga nidra sessions, and more.
Waking Up 是一款冥想应用程序，提供数百个引导冥想计划、正念训练、瑜伽休息课程等。
I started practicing meditation when I was about 15 years old, and it made a profound impact on my life.
我大约15岁的时候开始练习冥想，它对我的生活产生了深远的影响。
And by now, there are thousands of quality peer-reviewed studies that emphasize how useful mindfulness meditation can be for improving our focus, managing stress and anxiety, improving our mood, and much more.
到目前为止，已有数以千计的高质量同行评审研究强调正念冥想对于提高我们的注意力、管理压力和焦虑、改善我们的情绪等等有多么有用。
In recent years, I started using the Waking Up app for my meditations because I find it to be a terrific resource for allowing me to really be consistent with my meditation practice.
近年来，我开始使用“Waking Up”应用程序进行冥想，因为我发现它是一个很棒的资源，可以让我真正坚持我的冥想练习。
Many people start a meditation practice and experience some benefits, but many people also have challenges keeping up with that practice.
许多人开始冥想练习并体验到一些好处，但许多人也面临着跟上练习的挑战。
What I and so many other people love about the Waking Up app is that it has a lot of different meditations to choose from, and those meditations are of different durations.
我和许多其他人喜欢“醒来”应用程序的原因是它有很多不同的冥想可供选择，而且这些冥想的持续时间也不同。
So it makes it very easy to keep up with your meditation practice, both from the perspective of novelty, you never get tired of those meditations.
所以它让你很容易跟上你的冥想练习，无论是从新奇的角度来看，你永远不会厌倦这些冥想。
There's always something new to explore and to learn about yourself and about the effectiveness of meditation.
总有一些新的东西值得探索和了解你自己以及冥想的有效性。
And you can always fit meditation into your schedule, even if you only have two or three minutes per day in which to meditate.
即使您每天只有两到三分钟的时间进行冥想，您也可以随时将冥想纳入您的日程安排中。
I also really like doing yoga nidra, or what is sometimes called non-sleep deep rest, for about 10 or 20 minutes because it is a great way to restore mental and physical vigor without the tiredness that some people experience when they wake up from a conventional nap.
我也非常喜欢做约 10 或 20 分钟的瑜伽休息术，有时也被称为非睡眠深度休息，因为这是恢复精神和身体活力的好方法，而且不会像某些人从传统午睡中醒来时那样感到疲劳。
If you'd like to try the Waking Up app, please go to wakingup.com/huberman, where you can access a free 30-day trial.
如果您想尝试 Waking Up 应用程序，请访问 wakingup.com/huberman，在这里您可以免费试用 30 天。
Again, that's wakingup.com/huberman to access a free 30-day trial.
同样，访问 wakingup.com/huberman 即可获得 30 天免费试用。
People are probably starting to realize that overcoming addiction is about more than just white-knuckling it.
人们可能开始意识到，克服毒瘾不仅仅意味着紧张。
It's about more than just going to meetings, although that can be very useful.
这不仅仅是参加会议，尽管这可能非常有用。
It's about having a roadmap of the day, having a plan, knowing what weather patterns to look out for internally and externally.
这是关于制定当天的路线图、制定计划、了解需要注意内部和外部的天气模式。
It's about having a way to deal with distress, having a way to calm down.
这是关于有办法处理痛苦、有办法冷静下来。
Let's talk a little bit more about specific addictions.
让我们多谈谈具体的成瘾问题。
Okay.
好的。
Maybe I'll mention a couple different categories of addiction, and maybe you could reflect on some of the unique features of that in your experience.
也许我会提到几种不同类别的成瘾，也许你可以在你的经历中反思其中的一些独特特征。
Not necessarily neurobiologically, but in terms of strategies for confronting, in oneself, those things.
不一定是神经生物学上的，而是就自己面对这些事情的策略而言。
Right?
对吗？
Like strategies for trying to overcome them.
就像尝试克服它们的策略一样。
Because I hear from thousands of people, really, about different addictions in themselves and people close to them.
因为我确实从成千上万的人那里听到了他们自己以及与他们关系密切的人的不同成瘾行为。
So let's start with alcohol.
那么让我们从酒精开始吧。
What is unique about alcohol addiction that people should know?
人们应该了解酒精成瘾有何独特之处？
And these could be extensive answers.
这些可能是广泛的答案。
They don't have to be.
他们不一定是这样。
Right.
对。
But that could be helpful to them.
但这可能对他们有帮助。
Alcohol is an interesting one.
酒精是一种有趣的东西。
I think alcohol and most drugs have a lot of similarities, although alcohol tends to be the one that is the most socially acceptable.
我认为酒精和大多数毒品有很多相似之处，尽管酒精往往是最被社会接受的一种。
Drinking is part of our culture.
饮酒是我们文化的一部分。
If you don't do it, you catch some flak sometimes.
如果你不这样做，有时你会受到一些批评。
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
I think some of that's been changing, and some of it thanks to you.
我认为其中一些正在改变，其中一些要归功于你。
I can't tell you how many people that I've ended up talking to because they listen to your podcast on alcohol.
我无法告诉你我最终与多少人交谈，因为他们听了你关于酒精的播客。
Just from a health standpoint, so people are starting to look at that.
仅从健康的角度来看，人们开始关注这一点。
It's less like the "Mad Men" '50s people drinking at lunch, but it's still very much part of the culture- Happy hour ...
这不像 50 年代《广告狂人》里的人们在午餐时喝酒，但它仍然是文化的一部分——欢乐时光……
in everything.
在一切事情上。
Happy hour, happy day.
欢乐时光，快乐一天。
Look at the- Sunday fun day ...
看看-周日欢乐日......
if you've ever been in one of these retirement communities, where people are retired and just drinking all the time or- Really?
如果您曾经去过这些退休社区之一，那里的人们退休了并且一直喝酒，或者-真的吗？
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
There's a real stigma to not being able to drink for people.
对于人们来说，不能喝酒确实是一种耻辱。
I don't mind sharing.
我不介意分享。
I've been sober for quite some time, and
我已经清醒有一段时间了
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
That was a challenging thing, like the first wedding I went to or the first work event that I went to.
这是一件具有挑战性的事情，就像我参加的第一次婚礼或我参加的第一次工作活动一样。
I didn't know how to talk about it with people.
我不知道如何与人谈论这件事。
Now, it's no big deal.
现在，这没什么大不了的。
It doesn't bother me at all.
这根本不困扰我。
And if it does, sometimes I don't like to be around people who are just getting wasted, so I'll leave the wedding at 10:00 instead of 2:00.
如果确实如此，有时我不喜欢和那些浪费时间的人在一起，所以我会在 10:00 而不是 2:00 离开婚礼。
Most of the people thought I was there till 2:00, but I left at 10:00 because they're doing whatever they're doing.
大多数人以为我在 2:00 之前就在那里，但我在 10:00 就离开了，因为他们正在做他们正在做的事情。
But it's very challenging because having a glass of wine at dinner or a beer after work or thinking about people, it was always a thing like the first time a dad and a son share a beer, there's a lot of romanticizing around it.
但这非常具有挑战性，因为晚餐时喝一杯葡萄酒，下班后喝一杯啤酒或思考别人，这总是像爸爸和儿子第一次分享啤酒一样，有很多浪漫的感觉。
And I don't think alcohol is evil.
我不认为酒精是邪恶的。
I think listening to what you've talked about, it is poison, but like anything else, in moderation, I don't think it's a terrible problem.
我认为听你所说的，这是毒药，但像其他任何事情一样，适度的话，我不认为这是一个可怕的问题。
I'm not anti-alcohol, but what is it doing to you, and what are you using it for?
我并不反对酒精，但它对你有什么作用，你用它做什么？
So I think what the good side of that being part of the culture is when people can find a community, like a 12-step community or some other sort of peer community where people aren't drinking, that is really what helps them a lot.
所以我认为，成为文化一部分的好处是，当人们可以找到一个社区，比如 12 步社区或其他类型的人们不喝酒的同龄社区时，这确实对他们有很大帮助。
They're not alone in this.
他们并不孤单。
And I think the movies and TV do a terrible job representing what 12-step meetings are like.
我认为电影和电视对 12 步会议的描述效果很糟糕。
It's usually like they show a circle in a church basement, and everybody's talking about how they can't drink that day.
通常就像他们在教堂地下室展示一个圆圈，每个人都在谈论他们那天不能喝酒。
I'm sure you've seen that in television, right?
我相信你在电视上看过这个，对吧？
And in reality, of course, that happens sometimes, but most people are there really trying to use that program as a design for living and to build really amazing lives.
当然，在现实中，这种情况有时会发生，但大多数人确实试图使用该程序作为生活设计并构建真正令人惊叹的生活。
When you look at the 12 steps when it comes to alcohol, alcohol's only mentioned in the first one.
当你查看涉及酒精的 12 个步骤时，你会发现第一个步骤只提到了酒精。
Everything else is about how you live your life.
其他一切都与你如何生活有关。
That first step is about admitting we are powerless and that our lives have become unmanageable.
第一步就是承认我们无能为力，我们的生活已经变得难以管理。
And powerlessness is actually an awesome concept.
而无能为力实际上是一个很棒的概念。
People will look at powerlessness and think, "That means I'm weak.
人们看到无力感时会想：“这意味着我很软弱。
That means I can't control my life." But really, defining where you're powerless is the first step in finding great power.
这意味着我无法控制自己的生活。”但实际上，明确自己无能为力的地方是寻找强大力量的第一步。
Because if I just keep going out every day and I start fighting a battle that I'm going to lose every single day, and even if it wasn't addiction, like every day I just go out and I am taking on the five biggest guys on the block when I'm a kid, I'm going to lose that every day.
因为如果我每天都出去，开始打一场我每天都会失败的战斗，即使这不是上瘾，就像我每天都出去，当我还是个孩子的时候，我会和街区里最大的五个人较量，我每天都会失败。
I'm not going to start winning until I realize I can't beat them in the way that I'm doing it, so go do something else.
除非我意识到我无法以我现在的方式击败他们，否则我不会开始获胜，所以去做别的事情吧。
Powerless, where we identify where we're powerless, then we can go find great power, and that's where the concept of higher power comes in.
无能为力，当我们发现自己无能为力的地方时，我们就可以去寻找伟大的力量，这就是更高力量的概念的由来。
And higher power to a lot of people is God and whatever their concept of it.
对于很多人来说，更高的权力是上帝，无论他们的概念是什么。
Sometimes higher power is just the group of people in the community.
有时，更高的权力只是社区中的一群人。
I will see that anywhere from the relationship with God to me and you talking is a higher power.
我会看到，从与上帝的关系到我和你的谈话，任何地方都是一种更高的力量。
Two heads are better than one.
两个头比一个头好。
I'm going to be able to reflect to you, and you're going to be able to reflect back, or I'm going to share with you, and you can reflect back to me and help me see things differently and shift a perspective.
我将能够向你反映，你也将能够向你反映，或者我将与你分享，你也可以向我反映，帮助我以不同的方式看待事物并转变视角。
Because a lot of our healing is just a perception change.
因为我们的很多治愈只是观念的改变。
I'm just going to see things a little bit differently than I did before.
我只是会以与以前不同的方式看待事物。
So that community and the ability for them to be in service to each other and help each other is, I think that's the antithesis of, "I'm part of this drinking culture." And that's not only unique to alcohol, but because there's not usually a socially acceptable, you don't see crack advertised on television, right?
因此，我认为社区以及他们互相服务和互相帮助的能力是“我是这种饮酒文化的一部分”的对立面。这不仅是酒精所独有的，而且因为通常没有一种社会可以接受的酒精，所以你不会在电视上看到可卡因的广告，对吗？
You see alcohol, and it's in everything.
你会看到酒精，它存在于一切事物中。
Now, we do see gambling on television quite a bit, which is incredible.
现在，我们确实在电视上经常看到赌博，这令人难以置信。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, let's talk about gambling.
是的，我们来谈谈赌博。
I like the way, by the way, that you frame alcohol.
顺便说一下，我喜欢你把酒酿成酒的样子。
It's being offered to us all the time after a certain age, and so it's a challenging one for people that are challenged with alcohol addiction or alcohol use disorder.
在一定年龄之后，它就会一直提供给我们，因此对于患有酒精成瘾或酒精使用障碍的人来说，这是一项具有挑战性的工作。
And 12-step, I think is, it's free, it's in every city, it's a powerful program.
我认为 12 步骤是免费的，每个城市都有，这是一个强大的计划。
And certainly, there are data, I should just mention this, I think people will hear, oh, it's a cult, et cetera.
当然，有数据，我应该提到这一点，我想人们会听到，哦，这是一个邪教，等等。
There was a study, actually, run at Stanford some years ago.
事实上，几年前斯坦福大学进行了一项研究。
We'll provide a link to the coverage of that study and the study, which took a very objective look at 12-step for the treatment of alcoholism and other substance addictions.
我们将提供该研究的报道以及该研究的链接，该研究非常客观地审视了治疗酗酒和其他物质成瘾的 12 步疗法。
And actually, the investigators, the people that ran the study, were very skeptical going into it, and the results were pretty remarkable.
事实上，研究人员，即进行这项研究的人，对此非常怀疑，但结果却非常显着。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they changed their initial perception coming out of it that it can be very, very effective for people, especially given that you can do it when you travel, you can go to meetings in other cities.
他们改变了最初的看法，认为这对人们来说非常非常有效，特别是考虑到你可以在旅行时这样做，你可以去其他城市参加会议。
And as you mentioned, it's not the depressing picture that people think of a bunch of people-
正如你提到的，这并不是人们想到一群人时令人沮丧的画面——
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
No
否
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
whose lives are destitute in a basement.
他们在地下室里过着贫困的生活。
Sometimes people are coming in with some hard stuff, but there's often a lot of humor.
有时人们会带来一些困难的东西，但通常也有很多幽默。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's a lot of common challenge.
有很多共同的挑战。
There's a lightness there that a lot of people might not anticipate.
那里有一种很多人可能没有预料到的轻松感。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
People taking on life, not hiding from it.
人们接受生活，而不是逃避生活。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Love that.
喜欢那个。
Gambling.
赌博。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Not everybody that gambles has a gambling problem, just like everything else.
并不是每个赌博的人都有赌博问题，就像其他事情一样。
But when it does become problematic, it's a very challenging disorder to treat.
但当它确实成为问题时，它是一种非常难以治疗的疾病。
I don't know where the study came out of it.
我不知道这项研究是从哪里得出的。
At one point, I had seen some research that said that the highest rates of suicide were among gambling addicts.
有一次，我看到一些研究表明，自杀率最高的是赌博成瘾者。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oof.
噢。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
And what I've seen with that is it's like their whole world starts to get really small.
我所看到的是，他们的整个世界开始变得非常小。
It's weird because in the way that I look at it, it's really the only addiction, if it's an addiction for that person.
这很奇怪，因为在我看来，这确实是唯一的瘾，如果它对那个人来说是一种瘾的话。
Not everybody that gambles is a gambling addict, but for the ones that are addicted, it seems to me to be the only addiction that the next hit can solve all your problems.
并不是每个赌博的人都是赌博成瘾者，但对于那些上瘾的人来说，在我看来，这是唯一的瘾，下一次赌博可以解决你所有的问题。
So you're down $300,000, you could bet that and win it.
所以你输了 300,000 美元，你可以下注并赢。
I don't think anybody really thinks, in the moment they're probably out of their mind, but they don't think, "If I shoot heroin, my life is going to get better in the long run." They might be thinking, "It's going to get better right now because I'm not going to get sick.
我认为没有人会真正思考，此刻他们可能已经疯了，但他们不会认为，“如果我注射海洛因，从长远来看，我的生活会变得更好。”他们可能会想：“现在情况会好起来，因为我不会生病了。
I'm going to feel good." Whatever it is for them.
我会感觉很好。”不管对他们来说是什么。
But they're not thinking that this is going to solve their problems.
但他们并不认为这会解决他们的问题。
They know it's not.
他们知道事实并非如此。
And so it fortifies what we were talking about before, is continuing to go after the hot fudge sundae, except they can get it.
因此，它强化了我们之前谈论的内容，即继续追求热软糖圣代，除非他们能得到它。
And it's interesting because I've talked to different people, and sometimes the hit isn't in the winning, sometimes the hit is in the losing for them.
这很有趣，因为我和不同的人交谈过，有时对他们来说，成功并不在于胜利，有时失败却是成功。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
I've had people tell me that.
有人这样告诉我。
I don't really understand that, but I think then they have to go back after it again.
我不太明白，但我认为他们必须再次回去。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I believe them.
我相信他们。
They're the ones suffering from it, but wow.
他们是遭受这种痛苦的人，但是哇。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
And it's becoming a real problem with kids.
这正在成为孩子们的一个真正的问题。
There's a lot of sites to gamble on now.
现在有很多网站可供赌博。
They can bet on a lot of crypto sites.
他们可以在很多加密货币网站上进行投注。
You can bet on anything.
你可以赌任何东西。
And kids are playing in these online casinos that are probably operated overseas that are not regulated at all, and casinos that are regulated become very wealthy winning on a very small margin.
孩子们在这些可能在海外运营的在线赌场玩游戏，这些赌场根本不受监管，而受到监管的赌场却变得非常富有，并以很小的利润获胜。
I'm sure these casinos don't ever lose.
我确信这些赌场永远不会输。
They're making it up.
他们正在弥补。
It's in our face all the time.
它无时无刻都在我们的脸上。
I was reading Willie Mays died recently, the baseball player, San Francisco Giant, before we were around.
在我们出现之前，我读到了威利·梅斯最近去世的消息，这位棒球运动员是旧金山巨人队的球员。
But he was banned from baseball for life, I think they ended up letting him back in, because he took a contract from, I think it was Bally's.
但他被终身禁止参加棒球比赛，我想他们最终让他回来了，因为他签了一份合同，我想那是巴利的。
He wasn't betting on sports.
他没有赌体育。
So this was in the '80s.
那是在 80 年代。
He took a contract because he would go there and meet with their high rollers once a year for a week, just play golf with them, hang out with them.
他签了一份合同，因为他每年都会去那里与他们的豪赌客会面一次，为期一周，只是和他们一起打高尔夫球，和他们一起出去玩。
He wasn't betting on baseball, and he got banned from baseball.
他没有投注棒球，因此他被禁止参加棒球比赛。
Now, you watch a baseball game or go to a baseball stadium and different betting sites are mentioned all over the place.
现在，当您观看棒球比赛或去棒球场时，到处都会提到不同的投注网站。
You watch any sporting event and it's out there.
你观看任何体育赛事，它就在那里。
And that's not the only thing people are gambling on, but I don't know, if you watch sports right now with the basketball on or the Super Bowl was on, it's showing people with a phone showing that there's a celebrity on there winning $186,000, I think the number was.
这并不是人们唯一赌博的东西，但我不知道，如果你现在在篮球比赛或超级碗比赛期间观看体育比赛，它会向人们展示手机上显示有一位名人赢得了 186,000 美元，我认为这个数字是。
And then couple that with kids that are pretty susceptible already looking at those unicorn type people that are making millions on YouTube playing video games or starting to-
然后，再加上那些非常容易受到影响的孩子，他们已经看到了那些在 YouTube 上玩视频游戏赚了数百万美元的独角兽类型的人，或者开始——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Professional poker players.
职业扑克玩家。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah, professional poker players or even ones that aren't gambling that they're out there and they became a creator and they're making millions of dollars a year by having people follow them, like there's a way to make a-- Their significance is going to come from making a lot of money really fast, and then they see this way to do it without having to work or anything like that, and it's rigged to lose.
是的，职业扑克玩家，甚至那些不赌博的人，他们在那里，他们成为了创造者，他们通过让人们追随他们，每年赚了数百万美元，就像有一种方法可以赚到——他们的意义将来自于快速赚很多钱，然后他们看到这种方法不需要工作或类似的事情就能做到这一点，并且它被操纵输了。
They're going to lose.
他们会输的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Dopamine without effort.
多巴胺毫不费力。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's the danger.
这就是危险所在。
I've said it many times on this podcast, elsewhere, too.
我在这个播客上说过很多次，在其他地方也说过。
It's like any high, rapid inflection in dopamine that doesn't require effort, aside from being a kid and your parents get you an ice cream or it's your birthday.
这就像多巴胺的任何高度、快速的变化，不需要任何努力，除了当你还是个孩子的时候，你的父母给你买了冰淇淋或者今天是你的生日。
All you did is you were born, and to get those presents, and you deserve that.
你所做的就是你出生了，并得到这些礼物，这是你应得的。
It's your birthday, great.
今天是你的生日，太好了。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But in life, dopamine that doesn't require effort to obtain is the slipperiest slope.
但在生活中，不需要努力就能获得的多巴胺是最滑坡的。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
And the gambling for the kids and adults, but it's not just on betting on what we might traditionally think of betting on, a sporting event or something like that.
还有针对儿童和成人的赌博，但它不仅仅是对我们传统上认为的体育赛事或类似事物进行投注。
We see it in cryptocurrencies.
我们在加密货币中看到了这一点。
There's nothing against cryptocurrencies, but people going into it without any knowledge or any sort of sophistication and just putting all their money in it and up and down.
没有人反对加密货币，但人们在没有任何知识或任何复杂性的情况下进入加密货币，只是把所有的钱都投入其中。
We see more sophisticated people doing it as adults in real estate investments or-
我们看到更成熟的人在成年后进行房地产投资或-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Stock market
股票市场
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
...
...
stock market, or owners of company taking big bets on things.
股票市场，或公司所有者对事物进行大赌注。
And it doesn't mean that there aren't people that are taking calculated risks.
这并不意味着没有人愿意承担经过计算的风险。
I'm talking about people who are day trading when they-- And there are people that day trade and do great, but then there's a lot of people that see this person day traded and great, and then they do it and don't do so great.
我说的是那些进行日内交易的人，他们——有些人进行了日内交易并且表现出色，但是也有很多人看到这个人进行了日内交易并且表现出色，然后他们做了，但表现并不那么好。
Their lives collapse.
他们的生活崩溃了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So are you seeing more people coming to you with gambling addiction?
那么您是否看到越来越多的赌博成瘾者来找您？
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yes.
是的。
It's not always then the primary thing, though.
但这并不总是首要的事情。
There's a lot of people that are coming in with substance abuse or substance use or alcoholism, and we find out that they're also doing that.
有很多人因药物滥用或酗酒而进来，我们发现他们也在这样做。
The thing is, people addicted to gambling aren't always seeking treatment.
问题是，沉迷于赌博的人并不总是寻求治疗。
By the time that they are ready to, they might not have the money for it.
当他们准备好时，他们可能没有钱。
They might not have the job with the insurance.
他们可能没有这份有保险的工作。
And if we are talking about insurance and treatment centers, there's not really a benefit for long-term gambling treatment.
如果我们谈论保险和治疗中心，那么长期赌博治疗并没有真正的好处。
You have to kind of look at the anxiety and depression around it, and sometimes they get put in with people who are suffering from anxiety and depression, and we're not really focusing on the specific gambling issue.
你必须关注周围的焦虑和抑郁，有时他们会与患有焦虑和抑郁的人在一起，而我们并没有真正关注具体的赌博问题。
We also see people that they stop drinking, and they're able to stay sober that way, and they haven't really organized and ordered their life in a way that they're building towards something, and that energy from the addiction of alcohol or drugs goes to Gambling.
我们还看到人们停止饮酒，他们能够通过这种方式保持清醒，但他们并没有真正组织和安排自己的生活，以朝着某种目标前进，而来自酒精或毒品成瘾的能量都流向了赌博。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I was going to ask you about that.
是的，我正想问你这个问题。
We'll talk about a few other patterns of addiction and types of addiction, excuse me.
抱歉，我们将讨论一些其他的成瘾模式和成瘾类型。
But this idea that when you remove the quote-unquote medicine, there's a lot of distress and discomfort that comes up for people.
但这种想法是，当你去掉这种不引用的药物时，人们就会感到很多痛苦和不适。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And some people are able to white-knuckle it, as it's called.
正如所谓的那样，有些人能够“白手起家”。
Some people can develop tools to try and work with that distress, become more distress-tolerant.
有些人可以开发工具来尝试应对这种痛苦，变得更加能忍受痛苦。
Some people will transmute distress.
有些人会转化苦恼。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sometimes, yeah, it goes into running ultramarathons, which doesn't necessarily mean that-
有时，是的，它涉及到跑超级马拉松，但这并不一定意味着-
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
No
否
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's an addiction, but I've seen, and we know some people who got sober and stayed sober basically by running a lot.
这是一种上瘾，但我见过，而且我们知道有些人基本上通过大量跑步而变得清醒并保持清醒。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A lot, a lot.
很多很多。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
But do you think that that increased VO2 max allows for ability to handle distress better?
但您认为最大摄氧量的增加是否能够更好地应对压力？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
I think that running can calm the mind over time.
我认为跑步可以随着时间的推移让心灵平静下来。
Runners who run a lot, most of them are pretty tired or a little bit tired.
经常跑步的跑者，大多都比较累或者有点累。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And maybe that's part of the solution.
也许这就是解决方案的一部分。
If you have a dog that needs a lot of physical movement, you put it into a small space and it doesn't get a chance to run around.
如果你有一只需要大量身体运动的狗，你把它放在一个狭小的空间里，它就没有机会跑来跑去。
You see this in zoos, and animals develop these, what are called-
你在动物园里看到了这一点，动物们发展出了这些，所谓的——
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
stereotypies, like where you see the lion that's cutting literally a trench in the dirt.
刻板印象，就像你看到狮子在泥土中挖沟一样。
It's really sad to see.
看到真的很难过。
That animal is designed to roam, and you give an animal the opportunity to expend this energy that's stored up in its mitochondria, and it does, and it can relax, and it can sleep.
这种动物生来就是要漫游的，你给动物一个机会来消耗储存在线粒体中的能量，它确实这么做了，它可以放松，可以睡觉。
They still have to do the work of getting sober, these people, but moving your body through space is a way of transmuting energy out of the body.
这些人，他们仍然需要保持清醒，但是在太空中移动你的身体是一种将能量转化出身体的方式。
So you come home, you're like, "Relax." You eat a meal.
所以你回到家，你会说，“放松一下。”你吃一顿饭。
There's a calming effect to endurance activities.
耐力活动有镇静作用。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
For me, nothing changes my mood and nervous system better than even a 20-minute run.
对我来说，没有什么比跑步 20 分钟更能改变我的情绪和神经系统了。
I think they're also getting the benefits, if you're walking or running, you're getting the similar benefits to what people get from EMDR.
我认为他们也获得了好处，如果您步行或跑步，您将获得与人们从 EMDR 获得的类似好处。
Just the natural movements of the eye.
只是眼睛的自然运动。
In fact, EMDR, which is eye movement desensitization and reprocessing, the woman who discovered it, discovered it by going for a walk and realizing when she put something that she was distressed by in her mind, at the end of the walk, she felt better.
事实上，EMDR，即眼动脱敏和再处理，发现它的女士是在散步时发现的，她意识到当她把一些让她苦恼的事情记在心里时，在散步结束时，她感觉好多了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Francine Shapiro, she was in Palo Alto, walking behind Stanford when she made that discovery.
弗朗辛·夏皮罗（Francine Shapiro）做出这一发现时，她正在帕洛阿尔托，走在斯坦福大学后面。
As long as we're talking about this, it's funny that this is coming up, because online behavior, gambling, looking for somebody to get drugs from, the foraging is where the dopamine is released.
只要我们谈论这个，就会出现这种情况，这很有趣，因为网上行为、赌博、找人获取毒品、觅食都是多巴胺释放的地方。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We were talking about this earlier.
我们之前讨论过这个。
And foraging mentally is the same from the perspective of the dopamine system as foraging physically through space.
从多巴胺系统的角度来看，精神上的觅食与在空间中物理上的觅食是一样的。
Think about what the dopamine system evolved for.
想想多巴胺系统的进化目的是什么。
It's like any animal, including us, searching for water, searching for food, searching for mates.
就像任何动物，包括我们，寻找水、寻找食物、寻找伴侣。
We rest at night, but it's the movement forward through space that satisfies that dopaminergic system.
我们在晚上休息，但通过空间前进的运动才能满足多巴胺能系统。
And in fact, the major, I don't want to go off on too much of a tangent here, but the major system for movement in the body, not just reward and motivation, is dopamine.
事实上，我不想在这里离题太多，但身体运动的主要系统，不仅仅是奖励和动机，是多巴胺。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's why people with Parkinson's lose dopaminergic neurons-
这就是帕金森病患者失去多巴胺能神经元的原因——
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and they can't generate smooth behavior anymore.
他们不能再产生流畅的行为。
And it's interesting that Nidra and NSDR, the most impressive study in my mind-
有趣的是 Nidra 和 NSDR，我心目中最令人印象深刻的研究 -
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is the one that shows these big increases in dopamine-
是显示多巴胺大幅增加的一个-
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
from resting.
从休息。
So I feel like physical movement-
所以我感觉像身体运动-
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
It was like a 65% increase in-
这就像增加了 65%-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
...
...
endogenous dopamine or something like that.
内源性多巴胺或类似的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's incredible.
太不可思议了。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's something about still body, active mind that ramps up our dopamine stores and then prepares us for movement.
静止的身体和活跃的思维会增加我们的多巴胺储备，然后为我们的运动做好准备。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Does the dopamine store get ramped up when we're sleeping?
当我们睡觉时，多巴胺储存会增加吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes.
是的。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Anecdotally, they'll say that a 30-minute yoga nidra is equal to about three hours of REM sleep.
有趣的是，他们会说 30 分钟的瑜伽休息术相当于大约三个小时的快速眼动睡眠。
I don't know that that's true or not, but-
我不知道这是真的还是假的，但是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's hard to equate, but-
很难划等号，但是——
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah, of course, but I'm just saying anecdotally.
是的，当然，但我只是说个轶事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
But it makes sense, and I think, yeah, there's some truth to that basic statement, or basic truth to that statement.
但这是有道理的，而且我认为，是的，这个基本陈述有一定道理，或者说这个陈述有基本道理。
I think that transmuting just the energy that would otherwise become distress, or that starts-
我认为仅仅改变那些原本会变成痛苦的能量，或者开始-
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as distress.
作为苦恼。
Like when we're stressed, we need to get that out of our body.
就像当我们感到压力时，我们需要将其排出体外。
And I think that drugs like cocaine and amphetamine, big increases in dopamine, then crashes, you're essentially dispelling the energy.
我认为像可卡因和安非他明这样的药物会大幅增加多巴胺，然后崩溃，你实际上是在驱散能量。
I'm not so sure that it's always about pursuit.
我不太确定这总是与追求有关。
Like you said, it's like the gambling addict that actually wants to lose.
就像你说的，就像赌博成瘾者实际上想输一样。
There's something about-
有一些关于-
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
I don't know if they want to lose, but they recognize that they felt that-
我不知道他们是否想输，但他们认识到他们有这样的感觉——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That was the hit
那就是命中
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
...
...
or they felt one there.
或者他们感觉到那里有一种感觉。
I'm sure they felt it when they won as well, but-
我确信他们获胜时也有这种感觉，但是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, when you're really low, the only place you can go from there is up.
好吧，当你真的处于低谷时，你唯一可以去的地方就是向上。
When you're really high, the only place you can go from there is down.
当你真的很高的时候，你唯一能去的地方就是往下走。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Down.
下来。
Yeah.
是的。
This is so important because I think, what is discomfort?
这非常重要，因为我想，什么是不适？
What is the distress we're experiencing?
我们所经历的苦难是什么？
It's not our thoughts.
这不是我们的想法。
We don't feel our thoughts.
我们感受不到我们的想法。
We feel our feelings.
我们感受到我们的感受。
They call them feelings, right?
他们称之为感觉，对吧？
Because we feel them.
因为我们感觉到它们。
What are we feeling?
我们有什么感觉？
We're feeling some sort of sensation in our body.
我们的身体感受到某种感觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
It's energy.
这是能量。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
It's energy.
这是能量。
Which is energy.
这就是能量。
And when we're feeling that energy in an appropriate situation, like I'm feeling intense adrenaline and excitement when I'm going on a rollercoaster that I like, and I'll pay money and stand in line to do that.
当我们在适当的情况下感受到这种能量时，就像我在乘坐我喜欢的过山车时感受到强烈的肾上腺素和兴奋一样，我会付钱并排队这样做。
If you wake up on a Tuesday morning in your bed and you start feeling that, it's anxiety, fear, desperation.
如果你周二早上在床上醒来并开始有这种感觉，那就是焦虑、恐惧、绝望。
It's still just energy in our body.
它仍然只是我们体内的能量。
And everybody will experience things differently.
每个人都会经历不同的事情。
I could probably ask you, because you've got insight, if you're experiencing anger, where it is.
我也许可以问你，因为你有洞察力，如果你感到愤怒，它在哪里。
If somebody asks me, I can experience that in a hot belly, like heat between my eyes.
如果有人问我，我会感觉到肚子很热，就像我的眼睛之间有热量一样。
My shoulders feel really tense.
我的肩膀感觉非常紧张。
If I'm scared, where do I feel that?
如果我害怕，我在哪里感觉到的？
I feel like an emptiness in my stomach and a kind of tension in my body.
我感觉胃里空空的，身体里有一种紧张。
People can name it, and sometimes just naming it what it is versus ...
人们可以给它命名，有时只是命名它是什么，而不是......
kind of running through, like, "I'm anxious, I'm afraid." Instead of saying, "I'm anxious or afraid," being able to go, "Well, my heart's racing.
有点像“我很焦虑，我很害怕”。不要说“我很焦虑或害怕”，而是能够说“嗯，我的心跳加速。
I'm feeling tension in my shoulders."
我感到肩膀紧张。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Talking about the experience.
谈论经历。
And the goal isn't always just to dissipate it, but we can be with it, because the idea that I'm anxious and I can't get out of it then causes more anxiety.
我们的目标并不总是只是消除它，但我们可以接受它，因为我感到焦虑并且无法摆脱它的想法会导致更多的焦虑。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
And so these practices, anything that we can build where we just kind of lean into the discomfort a little bit and then lean out, we start to build capacity.
因此，这些实践，我们可以建立的任何东西，只要我们稍微倾向于不适，然后再倾斜，我们就开始建立能力。
We pendulate through kind of activation and resource, until we have a larger range of motion.
我们通过某种激活和资源进行摆动，直到我们有更大的运动范围。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What about, and I'll bundle these, things that really hit the dopamine system hard?
那么，我会把这些真正对多巴胺系统产生严重影响的东西捆绑起来呢？
Like in your observation, cocaine, amphetamine being the most salient ones, Adderall, and other stimulants.
就像你的观察一样，可卡因、安非他明是最突出的，阿得拉和其他兴奋剂。
Is there something unique to those addictions that you see in people that come in that give them kind of special requirements for how to overcome those addictions?
你在进来的人身上看到的这些成瘾是否有一些独特的东西，对如何克服这些成瘾提出了特殊的要求？
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah, it's interesting.
是的，这很有趣。
I think up until some time in the '80s, and I'm not going to have this right, I think they didn't really see cocaine as addictive because you didn't become dependent on it-
我想直到八十年代的某个时候，我不会有这个权利，我认为他们并没有真正认为可卡因会让人上瘾，因为你并没有对它产生依赖 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
...
...
like you would heroin or alcohol.
就像海洛因或酒精一样。
Yeah, somebody wrote a book called, I think it was Dr. Gold, "1-800-COCAINE," where they were starting to see that we could classify addiction as a psychological addiction.
是的，有人写了一本书，我想是戈尔德博士写的《1-800-可卡因》，他们开始看到我们可以将成瘾归类为心理成瘾。
I might have that a little bit off, but I think it's somewhere in that neighborhood.
我可能有点不喜欢，但我想它就在那个街区的某个地方。
There's not a physical detox from stimulants like amphetamines or cocaine like there is from heroin, opioids, or alcohol and benzodiazepines.
安非他明或可卡因等兴奋剂不会像海洛因、阿片类药物、酒精和苯二氮卓类药物那样进行身体排毒。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Coming off stimulants is really hard.
戒掉兴奋剂真的很难。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
It's really hard.
真的很难。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's really hard.
真的很难。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
But there's a obsession of the mind that gets triggered, and it's this psychological addiction that they can't seem to get out of.
但他们却被触发了一种心灵上的迷恋，而这种心理上的瘾似乎让他们无法摆脱。
I would imagine that you could probably describe it in what's happening with the huge surge in dopamine and then dropping off of it.
我想你可能可以用多巴胺急剧增加然后又下降的情况来描述它。
I'm not sure exactly where it falls in that, but they used to think that people couldn't recover from crack cocaine addictions.
我不确定这到底在哪里，但他们曾经认为人们无法从强效可卡因成瘾中恢复过来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's what we were told.
我们就是这么被告知的。
You do it once and you're addicted.
你做一次就会上瘾。
I don't want to say that's not true, but there was no real evidence for that.
我不想说这不是真的，但没有真正的证据证明这一点。
It's just smoking crack, aside from shooting cocaine, like intravenously, leads to the fastest increase in dopamine.
除了注射可卡因（如静脉注射）之外，吸可卡因也会导致多巴胺增加最快。
It's the rate of increase is just as important as the peak.
增长率与峰值同样重要。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Right.
对。
In working with those, there's a lot of energy that goes into just having them kind of still.
在处理它们的过程中，需要花费大量的精力来让它们保持静止。
I think a lot of stimulants, I see it as they help the physical body kind of match with the internal state of the nervous system.
我认为很多兴奋剂，我认为它们有助于身体与神经系统的内部状态相匹配。
I think that's one of the reasons we see stimulants work for ADHD.
我认为这就是我们看到兴奋剂对多动症有效的原因之一。
You probably understand the biological reasons of it.
您可能了解其生物学原因。
It seems to me that it kind of levels out their experience.
在我看来，这有点平衡了他们的经验。
I've seen people that when they take stimulants, they get really calm.
我见过有人服用兴奋剂后会变得非常平静。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, having a mismatch between your brain level of activity and your bodily level of activity is really rough.
是的，大脑活动水平与身体活动水平不匹配确实很糟糕。
So let's talk about some process addictions.
那么让我们来谈谈一些过程成瘾。
These days, I hear a ton of really desperate stories, mostly from young guys.
这些天，我听到了很多真正绝望的故事，大部分来自年轻人。
I've heard from maybe four or five women on this, but literally thousands of young men about porn addiction.
我听过大约四、五个女性的声音，但实际上也听过数千名年轻男性的声音。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Every time I hear about it, I feel so fortunate that I grew up in a time where, or maybe I just don't have the wiring for it, and if I did, I'm pretty open on this podcast, it's never been an issue for me.
每次我听到这个，我都感到很幸运，因为我成长在一个这样的时代，或者也许我只是没有接线，如果我有的话，我对这个播客非常开放，这对我来说从来都不是问题。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they're telling me that they can't stop watching porn.
他们告诉我他们无法停止观看色情片。
I get the sense that they're not enjoying this experience anymore, because they're reaching out to me saying, "How in the world can I quit?" And what do I tell them?
我感觉到他们不再享受这种经历了，因为他们向我伸出援手说：“我到底怎样才能退出呢？”我该告诉他们什么？
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
I remember, and again, I don't know this study, but I remember somebody referencing many years ago when I was first getting in the field that porn addiction at the time, specifically related to video pornography, which is what it all is now, right?
我记得，我不知道这项研究，但我记得很多年前，当我第一次进入这个领域时，有人提到当时的色情成瘾，特别是与视频色情有关，这就是现在的情况，对吗？
It was having the same impact on the brain in young men as crack cocaine.
它对年轻人大脑的影响与强效可卡因相同。
It's extremely powerful.
它非常强大。
Has a lot of other effects in that it sets up a very unrealistic idea and perspective of what sex and intimacy is.
还有很多其他影响，因为它对性和亲密关系建立了一种非常不切实际的想法和观点。
It also can help, or can lead to kind of setting their sexual template.
它也可以帮助，或者可以导致设定他们的性模板。
They can quickly escalate, just like you would escalate, kind of back to the hot fudge sundae, where it doesn't work anymore, from something that might seem like normal sex to violent sex to really out there things that can bring a lot of shame that they're even watching.
他们可以迅速升级，就像你会升级一样，有点回到热软糖圣代，它不再起作用了，从看似正常的性行为到暴力性行为，再到真正可以给他们带来很多耻辱的事情，他们甚至在观看。
And it can escalate quickly.
而且事态会迅速升级。
And then have an impact on their own lives and relationships, because they're playing out those relationships or that amount of intimacy, depending on what they're doing, also if there's masturbation along with it, in a fantasy.
然后对他们自己的生活和人际关系产生影响，因为他们正在发挥这些关系或一定程度的亲密关系，这取决于他们在做什么，也包括在幻想中是否有手淫。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, what I'm also hearing is that any time they are in a real-life intimate scenario, which seems to be fewer and fewer times nowadays-
嗯，我还听到的是，任何时候他们在现实生活中的亲密场景，现在似乎越来越少了——
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the younger generation, that they are having sexual anxiety, sexual performance issues.
在年轻一代中，他们有性焦虑、性表现问题。
Which makes sense if their brain and nervous system is getting wired by porn to observe sexual behavior as opposed to being in the experience of-
如果他们的大脑和神经系统被色情内容所吸引来观察性行为而不是体验-，这是有道理的
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
intimate sex behavior, right?
亲密的性行为，对吗？
Two different things to be in the experience versus watching someone else's experience of it.
体验和观看别人的经历是两种不同的事情。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is what pornography is.
这就是色情内容。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
This was probably 10, 15 years ago, where we were treating a lot of soldiers that had come back from Afghanistan or Iraq, and this was the first wars where they had access to the internet.
这可能是 10、15 年前的事，当时我们正在治疗许多从阿富汗或伊拉克回来的士兵，这是他们第一次可以访问互联网的战争。
And there was a lot of other things.
还有很多其他的事情。
So there was a lot of combining of sex and violence, right?
所以有很多性和暴力的结合，对吧？
They're around a lot of violence, and then they're watching sex, and then that kind of sexual template would set around, like in order for them to get pleasure out of sex, it would need to be aggressive or even violent or very risky.
他们周围有很多暴力，然后他们观看性爱，然后那种性模板就会出现，就像为了让他们从性爱中获得快乐，它需要具有攻击性，甚至暴力或非常危险。
So there's all these things that kind of collapse together.
所以所有这些东西都一起崩溃了。
There were other things going on.
还有其他事情发生。
It was the first time that they had also really had access to video chats to be able to be on a battlefield and then come back and be talking to their spouse about something that's going on with the kids.
这是他们第一次真正能够进行视频聊天，能够在战场上然后回来与他们的配偶谈论孩子们发生的事情。
It was very confusing environment for those guys, men and women.
对于那些男人和女人来说，这是一个非常令人困惑的环境。
The porn addiction is a tough one, because it's everywhere.
色情成瘾是一件很难的事，因为它无处不在。
Now you can find it on any social media almost.
现在你几乎可以在任何社交媒体上找到它。
Maybe not anyone, but it's not really limited.
也许不是任何人，但它并不真正受到限制。
And even if it's not, I know certain states have just put in where you have to put in your ID to get it, but there's tons of ways around that and other sites that people can go to.
即使不是，我知道某些州刚刚规定你必须输入身份证件才能获得它，但是有很多方法可以解决这个问题以及人们可以访问的其他网站。
And I've run into that with a lot of, it does seem to be young men.
我和很多人都遇到过这种情况，似乎都是年轻人。
And it's a way for them to play out some sort of fantasy around connection and relationship, and it makes their world really small.
这是他们围绕联系和关系发挥某种幻想的一种方式，这让他们的世界变得非常小。
I don't think it's the same as gambling, but it can make their world very, very small in that they're, instead of finding relationships out in the world, and it's not necessarily a relationship, but what they believe they're getting out of a relationship, they're then getting out of watching porn.
我不认为这和赌博一样，但它会让他们的世界变得非常非常小，因为他们不是在世界上寻找关系，这不一定是关系，而是他们认为自己从关系中得到的东西，然后他们就不再看色情片了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It seems like basically stopping completely is the answer.
看起来基本上完全停止就是答案。
And I'm not trying to moralize here, right?
我并不是想在这里说教，对吧？
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm not telling people what's moral about this.
我不会告诉人们这有什么道德意义。
I just know that any behavior or substance that leads to quick, repeated inflections in dopamine is going to create a groove in the nervous system where you're going to crave that thing, and it's going to give you a lower and lower sense of satisfaction over time.
我只知道，任何导致多巴胺快速、反复变化的行为或物质都会在神经系统中产生一个凹槽，让你渴望那个东西，随着时间的推移，它会给你带来越来越低的满足感。
And the only way to reset that circuit is to stop and do something else in its place, ideally, that's adaptive.
重置该电路的唯一方法是停止并在其位置上做其他事情，理想情况下，这是自适应的。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
These are people that are asking you how they can stop.
这些人问你如何才能停止。
They're telling you, "I can't stop.
他们告诉你：“我无法停下来。
How do I do it?" So it can be similar to other addictions.
我该怎么做呢？”所以它可能与其他成瘾类似。
First, the admission part that it's a problem or awareness it is, and then being able to start to talk to somebody and start to take some accountability around it.
首先，承认这是一个问题或意识，然后能够开始与某人交谈并开始对此承担一些责任。
Not accountability like you're doing something wrong, but to be able to have some sort of, identify the behaviors that start leading to that.
不是像做错事那样承担责任，而是能够采取某种方式，识别导致错误的行为。
That can be done in therapy.
这可以在治疗中完成。
There's other 12-step groups that can help people with that to identify what their sobriety would look like, if you want to call it sobriety, what it looks like.
还有其他 12 步小组可以帮助有这种情况的人确定他们的清醒是什么样子，如果你想称其为清醒，那么它是什么样子的。
And if it does involve not watching any porn, then that's the rule set that they have, and then they figure out, either with their therapist or in their treatment center or with their sponsor or community in 12-step, like, "How am I going to be held accountable to that?" And that might be doing the things like we talked about, laying out, looking at your day ahead.
如果确实涉及不看任何色情片，那么这就是他们所制定的规则，然后他们会与治疗师或治疗中心或赞助商或社区一起弄清楚，分 12 步，比如“我该如何对此负责？”这可能是做我们谈论过的事情，规划，展望未来的一天。
At the beginning, they might need to look at things like, there's ways and software out there to not be able to look at that on your phone or have an accountability partner that they have to approve websites you go to, and that's not to say that they have to do that forever, but it's something that's available, right?
一开始，他们可能需要考虑一些事情，比如，有什么方法和软件可以让你无法在你的手机上查看这些内容，或者有一个责任合作伙伴，他们必须批准你访问的网站，这并不是说他们必须永远这样做，但这是可用的，对吗？
50 years ago or 30 years ago, someone had to find their dad's porno mag somewhere and then look at it.
50 年前或 30 年前，有人必须在某个地方找到他们父亲的色情杂志，然后查看它。
Now it's on their phones or computers.
现在它在他们的手机或电脑上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, we know that increasing accessibility increases addiction.
嗯，我们知道增加可访问性会增加成瘾性。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This has been studied over-
这已经被研究过——
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Over and over
一遍又一遍
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and over again, and people say, "Well, what about red-light districts and things?" And there's some caveats that have to do with when you create areas within cities where certain things are allowed.
一遍又一遍，人们会说：“那么，红灯区之类的事情呢？”当您在城市内创建允许某些事情的区域时，有一些注意事项。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But this has been tested many, many times.
但这已经被测试过很多很多次了。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's also true, and it's kind of a duh, but to quote Ana Lembke, "It's impossible to get addicted to a substance or a behavior that you've never taken or engaged in."
这也是事实，虽然有点废话，但引用安娜·伦布克的话来说，“你不可能对从未服用或从事过的物质或行为上瘾。”
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So some things are best avoided-
所以有些事情最好避免——
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
entirely.
完全。
Are there specific 12-step programs for porn addiction that are separate from, say, sex addiction?
是否有针对色情成瘾的具体 12 步计划，与性成瘾不同？
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
If people look it up, I'm sure there's meetings out there that are specific to that.
如果人们查一下，我确信那里有专门针对这个问题的会议。
There are some treatment centers that have tracks that deal specifically with that.
有些治疗中心有专门处理这个问题的轨道。
There's therapists that work very closely with that, and I believe that there are some 12-step.
有一些治疗师对此进行了密切合作，我相信有一些 12 个步骤。
There's pretty much 12-step programs for any sort of, within things like SA or SLA, there'll be subsets of meetings for people that are with a very specific condition.
几乎有针对任何类型的 12 步计划，在 SA 或 SLA 等内容中，还会有针对具有非常具体条件的人员的会议子集。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And one of the reasons I wanted to discuss this today is because I hear about it so much, is unlike alcohol or drugs, there's a kind of extra layer of shame associated-
我今天想讨论这个问题的原因之一是因为我听说过很多关于它的事情，它与酒精或毒品不同，它有一种额外的羞耻感——
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with pornography addiction for people.
人们对色情成瘾。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So many times we've heard, oh, this celebrity was an alcoholic or drug addict.
我们多次听说过，哦，这位名人是个酒鬼或吸毒者。
They wrapped their car around a pole, was arrested, this and that.
他们把车缠在一根柱子上，然后被捕，这样那样。
Then they get sober, and everyone still loves them, loves them more, right?
然后他们就清醒了，大家还是爱他们，更爱他们，对吗？
If we knew that a given celebrity was a porn addict or something, we look at that person differently.
如果我们知道某个名人是色情成瘾者或其他什么东西，我们就会以不同的方式看待那个人。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Especially if they're male.
特别是如果他们是男性。
We just look at them differently.
我们只是以不同的方式看待它们。
And so reducing some of the shame around it, I think, is key to helping them recover, because I can tell you, the questions initially came in kind of like as is often the case with men when they're trying to talk about issues, that they were kind of cloaked in like, what are your thoughts about NoFap, which is this thing where guys withhold ejaculation.
因此，我认为，减少一些与之相关的羞耻感是帮助他们康复的关键，因为我可以告诉你，这些问题最初的出现有点像男人在试图谈论问题时经常遇到的情况，他们有点像，你对 NoFap 的看法是什么，这是男人们抑制射精的东西。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Does it increase testosterone?
它会增加睾丸激素吗？
Turns out in the short run it does.
事实证明，短期内确实如此。
In the long term, it's probably not good for the prostate, et cetera.
从长远来看，这可能对前列腺等不利。
But then it turned out they were really asking about masturbation.
但后来发现他们实际上是在问自慰。
They were really asking about pornography, and then All of a sudden, I don't know what changed out there, but there's been this deluge of questions from young guys of how they can stop engaging in online porn.
他们确实在询问色情内容，然后突然之间，我不知道那里发生了什么变化，但是年轻人提出了大量问题，询问他们如何才能停止参与在线色情内容。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
A key to that is what you said about we look at them differently.
关键是你所说的我们以不同的方式看待它们。
They're going to keep it secret.
他们会保守秘密。
And there's a saying, "Secrets keep us sick," but I believe there's a real, almost a biology to that, in that if you're holding it in, not sharing it, there's no really place for it to go but shame.
有句话说，“秘密让我们生病”，但我相信这是一个真实的、几乎是生物学的道理，如果你保守秘密而不分享它，那么除了羞耻之外，它没有真正的地方可去。
And shame separates us.
羞耻感使我们分离。
And separate, we're not connected.
而且分开了，我们没有联系。
And not connected, we're alone, and alone, we keep carrying that forward.
没有联系，我们孤独，孤独，我们继续前进。
Alone, we're dead.
独自一人，我们就死定了。
Maybe not in that sense anymore, like we talked about earlier, but we're not really living.
也许不再是这个意义上的了，就像我们之前谈到的那样，但我们并没有真正生活过。
And so these guys are hearing you on a podcast and then DMing you, right?
所以这些人在播客上听到你的声音，然后私信你，对吗？
They're probably not in a personal close relationship with you, right?
他们可能与你没有亲密的私人关系，对吗？
It's easier to send it there than maybe go ask for help with somebody in their area or go to a meeting or something like that because of the stigma.
由于耻辱，将其发送到那里比向所在地区的某人寻求帮助或参加会议或类似的事情更容易。
So it's good that you've opened up the ability for people to do that, but to continue to direct them back to let's try to treat this like we would any other addiction, at least from the standpoint of you've got to talk about it, you've got to have some sort of admission, you've got to be able to find a community around it.
因此，你向人们开放了这样做的能力，这很好，但要继续引导他们回到让我们尝试像对待任何其他成瘾一样对待它，至少从你必须谈论它的角度来看，你必须有某种承认，你必须能够找到一个围绕它的社区。
You want to be able to do work, most likely with a therapist or a team of therapists that can help you understand what's driving that behavior.
您希望能够与治疗师或治疗师团队一起工作，以帮助您了解是什么驱动了这种行为。
You and I have had long discussions about trauma before.
你和我之前就创伤问题进行过长时间的讨论。
That's something I've worked with for many years or most of my career as I came into being a therapist.
当我成为一名治疗师时，这是我多年来或职业生涯的大部分时间都在做的事情。
And in trauma therapy, we're often going back to seeing, we do a history and really kind of understand where the patterns started.
在创伤治疗中，我们经常回顾历史，真正了解这些模式是从哪里开始的。
And it's really helpful for me as a therapist when I can see where it is because I can start making sense of how people are behaving this way as adults when I can see all of the experiences they had, and especially the more negative, impactful ones, which tend to impact the brain.
作为一名治疗师，当我能看到它在哪里时，这对我来说真的很有帮助，因为当我能看到人们的所有经历时，我可以开始理解人们作为成年人的行为方式，尤其是那些更消极、更有影响力的经历，这些经历往往会影响大脑。
Like you always say, fastest way to plasticity is through a traumatic event.
就像你常说的，实现可塑性的最快方法是经历创伤事件。
I believe that's how you say it, right?
我相信你就是这么说的，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
One trial learning.
一试学习。
It just takes once.
只需要一次。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Unfortunately, but luckily, there's plasticity in the other direction, too.
不幸的是，但幸运的是，另一个方向也有可塑性。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
It just takes a little bit-
只需要一点点——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Takes longer
需要更长的时间
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
...
...
longer.
更长。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You got to triple it.
你必须把它增加三倍。
Yeah.
是的。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
I think that's where addiction comes in, too, because you can kind of feel a sense of plasticity if I'm drinking or if I'm doing drugs, right?
我认为这也是成瘾的原因，因为如果我喝酒或吸毒，你会感觉到一种可塑性，对吗？
I don't know if that's the actual term for it, but I'm not feeling like my brain is so stuck in that direction.
我不知道这是否是它的实际术语，但我不觉得我的大脑如此卡在那个方向。
I can act a little bit differently.
我可以采取一些不同的行动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What comes to mind to kind of encapsulate all of it, because it gets to the underlying mechanisms, I think is beware the things that come easily and quickly.
我想到的是封装所有这些，因为它涉及到底层机制，我认为要小心那些容易和快速出现的事情。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really beware of those things.
真的要小心这些事情。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If it's pornography, and you can get to experience of, well, it's not the experience of sex, but the illusion of pseudo sex, right?
如果它是色情内容，你可以体验到，嗯，这不是性的体验，而是伪性的幻觉，对吗？
If it's easily available, beware of that thing.
如果它很容易获得，请小心它。
If it's a feeling of relaxation from a drink, beware of alcohol.
如果喝酒后有一种放松的感觉，那就要小心酒精了。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If it's-
如果是——
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Fast money.
来钱快。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
If you are very proficient at you lift a weight, you build muscle, you get attention for it, beware that thing-
如果你非常擅长举重，你会锻炼肌肉，你会因此而受到关注，请注意这一点——
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because there are all these positive reward signals that are masking what soon will happen, which is that that thing is going to make you kind of lopsided internally and make you crave it more.
因为所有这些积极的奖励信号掩盖了即将发生的事情，也就是说，那件事会让你内心不平衡，让你更加渴望它。
And so I think that there's something about these things that come easy.
所以我认为这些事情有些来得容易。
It's a problem, and I think I kind of like that in the sense that because many people are struggling, and we don't often glorify the struggle.
这是一个问题，我想我有点喜欢这个问题，因为很多人都在挣扎，而我们并不经常美化这种挣扎。
We're all trying to struggle our way out of struggle.
我们都在努力摆脱困境。
But struggle is distress, and as long as we're struggling, we're in the distress tolerance.
但挣扎就是痛苦，只要我们还在挣扎，我们就处于痛苦的承受之中。
I'm not saying people shouldn't aim to succeed, but, and forgive me for going a little long on this reflection, but I remember in graduate school, I had a paper that got accepted by the journal "Science," which is one of the three apex journals, "Nature," "Science," and "Cell." And I was over the moon.
我并不是说人们不应该以成功为目标，但是，请原谅我在这个思考上花了一点时间，但我记得在研究生院时，我有一篇论文被《科学》杂志接受，该杂志是《自然》、《科学》和《细胞》三大顶尖期刊之一。我欣喜若狂。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I was like, "Oh my God, this is amazing." First author paper in "Science." Some people never do that in their career.
我当时想，“天哪，这太棒了。” 《科学》杂志上的第一作者论文。有些人在职业生涯中从未这样做过。
I was doing it as a graduate student.
我是在读研究生的时候做的。
And my dad, who's a scientist, said, "Prepare for the week afterward when you wonder if you'll ever do it again." I was like, okay, kind of a postpartum crash.
我的父亲是一名科学家，他说：“为接下来的一周做好准备，那时你想知道自己是否还能再做一次。”我当时想，好吧，有点产后崩溃。
And then my graduate advisor, I said, "Do we get to celebrate?
然后我的研究生导师，我说，“我们可以庆祝一下吗？
Do we get to throw a meal or a party?" And she goes, "No. I suppose I could buy you a pizza, but that would be stupid." And this is Barbara Chapin, and very blunt.
我们可以举办一顿饭或一个聚会吗？”她说：“不。我想我可以给你买个披萨，但那太愚蠢了。”这是芭芭拉·查宾，她非常直率。
And she said, "No, the pleasure was the work of doing the paper." And I was like, I got it.
她说：“不，我的乐趣在于做论文。”我当时想，我明白了。
And that's what taught me to repeat that process.
这就是教会我重复这个过程的原因。
I didn't always publish in "Science," but certainly in other great journals again and again.
我并不总是在《科学》上发表文章，但肯定会一次又一次地在其他伟大的期刊上发表文章。
It's like the reward is in the process.
就好像奖励就在这个过程中。
The effort is the reward.
努力就是回报。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
And if there's no process or no effort, and we don't struggle.
如果没有过程或没有努力，我们就不会挣扎。
In one way, we're struggling with so much, and in other ways, we don't struggle with the stuff that we probably need to struggle with to move the energy out of our body.
一方面，我们正在与如此多的事情作斗争，而在其他方面，我们并没有与那些我们可能需要努力将能量从身体中排出的东西作斗争。
Michael Easter's book "Comfort Crisis" is great.
迈克尔·伊斯特的书《舒适危机》很棒。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
We used to walk 10 miles a day, and we're not burning that energy.
我们过去每天步行 10 英里，但我们并没有消耗这些能量。
So we're just sitting there with this energy that used to just get disseminated, or we'd wake up in the morning, move through the stressors of the day, good, bad, and different.
所以我们只是坐在那里，带着这种过去刚刚传播的能量，或者我们早上醒来，经历一天中的压力源，好的、坏的和不同的。
Even good things are stressful.
即使是好事也会带来压力。
If you have to go to three birthday parties on a weekend, even if they're fun, you're tired at the end.
如果你必须在周末参加三个生日聚会，即使它们很有趣，最后你也会感到疲倦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sounds like a dad.
听起来像个爸爸。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah, it is a dad.
是的，这是一位父亲。
I go to a lot of birthday parties and try not to get sick at them, especially when they're at these little indoor gyms and ball pits.
我参加了很多生日聚会，并尽量不生病，尤其是当他们在这些小型室内体育馆和球坑里时。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's more rewarding than raising kids?
还有什么比养育孩子更有意义的事情呢？
But what's interesting, Michael Easter, with the "Comfort Crisis," doing these hard Misogi challenges-
但有趣的是，迈克尔·复活节，带着“舒适危机”，做这些艰难的 Misogi 挑战——
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
he calls them.
他打电话给他们。
Think about self-imposing discomfort so that you don't get pulled into the illusion of ...
想想自我强加的不适，这样你就不会陷入……的幻觉中。
of comfort by these other things.
这些其他事情带来的安慰。
I think it's becoming clear to me now that the things that come easy are the traps.
我想我现在越来越清楚，容易得到的事情往往都是陷阱。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're the traps.
它们就是陷阱。
So folks, if you're really good at something, doesn't mean don't lean into it, but if something comes really easily for you, you have to be very mindful of that thing and other things around it.
所以，伙计们，如果你真的擅长某件事，并不意味着不要专注于它，但如果某件事对你来说真的很容易，你就必须非常留意那件事以及它周围的其他事情。
Sounds like you created discomfort for yourself.
听起来你给自己制造了不舒服。
Maybe there's a discomfort appetite that if we don't satisfy through healthy things-
如果我们不通过健康的东西来满足，也许会有一种不舒服的食欲——
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
we will satisfy through unhealthy things.
我们会通过不健康的事物来满足。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
That's a very interesting concept.
这是一个非常有趣的概念。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't know where that would exist in the nervous system, but because you hear, oh, we're trying to avoid pain and go toward pleasure.
我不知道它存在于神经系统的哪个位置，但因为你听到，哦，我们正在努力避免痛苦并走向快乐。
That's true, but those models are too simple.
确实如此，但这些模型太简单了。
So I like the idea of a ration of discomfort to experience every day.
所以我喜欢每天经历一定程度的不适的想法。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Well, isn't it that we're kind of built to expend energy and then sleep?
嗯，难道我们生来就是为了消耗能量然后睡觉的吗？
And then wake up the next day and expend energy and sleep, and if we're not expending the energy, how can we sleep?
然后第二天醒来，消耗能量，然后睡觉，如果我们不消耗能量，我们怎么能睡觉呢？
And then we wake up with more, and we just carry the stressors from the day before, rather than just breaking it down.
然后我们醒来时会感到更多，我们只是承受前一天的压力，而不是简单地分解它。
That's one of the beauties of recovery, where they talk about one day at a time.
这是康复的美妙之处之一，他们一天一天地谈论。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, one of the last couple of weeks, there's always something each year that really pops, that gets kind of viral overnight.
嗯，在过去的几周里，每年总会有一些真正流行的东西，一夜之间就会像病毒一样传播开来。
Last year it was the Hawk Tuah girl.
去年是Hawk Tuah 女孩。
This year, it's the morning routine guy, the guy that he shows his morning routine.
今年，是早上例行公事的人，他展示了他早上例行公事的人。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Oh, okay.
哦，好吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it got millions and millions of hits.
它获得了数百万次点击。
And this guy does cold water on the face.
这家伙还往脸上泼冷水。
He's working, he's praying, he's doing all these things.
他在工作，他在祈祷，他在做所有这些事情。
He's wearing no shirt.
他没穿衬衫。
He's super jacked.
他超级厉害。
He was getting attention for different reasons.
他由于不同的原因而受到关注。
Anyway, huge following, and the best comment ever was...
无论如何，大量的追随者，有史以来最好的评论是......
Oh, man, this guy's going to come after me.
哦，伙计，这个家伙会来追我的。
He seems like he's got his life organized.
他似乎把自己的生活安排得井井有条。
Someone put a comment, "This guy spends all day preparing for the next day."
有人评论道：“这家伙整天都在为第二天做准备。”
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Next day.
第二天。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is the worst thing about optimization, right?
优化中最糟糕的事情是什么，对吗？
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The whole purpose of tools like sleep or nidra and all these things, and you taught me this, really good protocols let you lean into life more, not less.
像睡眠或休息术以及所有这些东西这样的工具的全部目的，你教了我这一点，真正好的协议可以让你更多地融入生活，而不是更少。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not about withdrawing and getting into a wellness loop where you're just preparing for the next day.
这并不是要退出并进入健康循环，为第二天做准备。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's about being able to lean into the third birthday party where you're like, "Ugh," and the kids are sick, and you know you're being exposed to all this stuff, but you're there because your daughter needs to be there, and she's elated to be there.
这是关于能够融入三岁生日聚会，在那里你会说，“呃，”孩子们生病了，你知道你会接触到所有这些东西，但你在那里是因为你的女儿需要在那里，而且她很高兴在那里。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can we put on the shelf that perhaps we have an appetite for discomfort that we can either satisfy through healthy things or unhealthy things?
我们是否可以把这样的想法搁置起来：也许我们对不舒服的胃口可以通过健康的东西或不健康的东西来满足？
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
I think that's a good way to put it.
我认为这是一个很好的表达方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can we call it the Suave Huberman-
我们可以称之为“Suave Huberman”吗？
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
We can call it the-
我们可以称之为——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We'll go Huberman
我们去胡伯曼
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
...
...
Huberman Suave.
休伯曼温文尔雅。
It's fine.
没关系。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Addiction means that somebody's already in the pit.
上瘾意味着有人已经入坑了。
Like they haven't done the, "Okay, I have a appetite for discomfort I need to satisfy with adaptive things." They're in the pit.
就像他们没有做过的那样，“好吧，我对不适有一种胃口，我需要用适应性的东西来满足。”他们在坑里。
So if you would, if people out there listening are in a place where they're like, they know something's got them as opposed to them having it, or they're wondering, or someone they know, and especially if it's somebody that they know, what do you suggest?
所以如果你愿意的话，如果外面听的人在他们喜欢的地方，他们知道有什么东西吸引了他们，而不是他们拥有它，或者他们想知道，或者他们认识的人，特别是如果是他们认识的人，你有什么建议？
This isn't like call the suicide hotline.
这不像拨打自杀热线。
Unless they're suicidal, obviously.
显然，除非他们有自杀倾向。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A lot of people don't have means to start therapy with a world-class addiction therapist, trauma specialist.
许多人没有办法开始接受世界一流的成瘾治疗师、创伤专家的治疗。
Some do, some don't.
有些会，有些不会。
What do people do?
人们做什么？
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Well, there are a lot of options for people out there.
嗯，人们有很多选择。
Sometimes they don't think that they have them because they don't have means, but in our centers, we strive to create access, and I know a lot of others do, too.
有时他们认为自己没有这些，因为他们没有办法，但在我们的中心，我们努力创造机会，我知道很多其他人也这样做。
So it's not just people that pay out of pocket.
因此，不仅仅是人们自掏腰包。
There's insurance and we build some quality treatment centers for people with Medicaid in different states.
有保险，我们为不同州的医疗补助患者建立了一些优质治疗中心。
We don't know what's happening with that at the moment, but currently, they can get treatment for that.
我们目前不知道发生了什么，但目前，他们可以接受治疗。
So if they're in a state where they needed detox or they're in a place where if they try to stop drinking or using, it gets pretty significant, there's services out there for them.
因此，如果他们处于需要排毒的状态，或者他们处于尝试停止饮酒或使用的地方，那么情况就变得非常重要，有为他们提供的服务。
Another great thing, though, is to just go straight into a 12-step meeting.
不过，另一件很棒的事情是直接进行 12 步会议。
They're everywhere.
他们无处不在。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How do people find those meetings?
人们如何找到这些会议？
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Go online, Google 12-step in your area.
上网，谷歌您所在地区的 12 步骤。
There's Narcotics Anonymous, there's Alcoholics Anonymous, there's Cocaine Anonymous, there's Overeaters Anonymous, there's Gambling Anonymous.
有戒毒互助会、酗酒互助会、可卡因互助会、暴饮暴食互助会、赌博互助会。
Every one of them has a central office.
他们每个人都有一个中央办公室。
The organizational structure, especially of Alcoholics Anonymous, is really incredible.
组织结构，尤其是戒酒互诫协会的组织结构，确实令人难以置信。
We could do a whole episode on it.
我们可以为此制作一整集。
There's no leaders.
没有领导。
It's a very flat organization.
这是一个非常扁平化的组织。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Politically unaffiliated.
政治上无党派。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Politically unaffiliated.
政治上无党派。
They have a vow of poverty.
他们有贫穷的誓言。
If somebody died and donated a million dollars, they can't take more than 10,000.
如果有人去世并捐赠了一百万美元，他们接受的也不会超过一万美元。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
There's only trusted servants.
只有值得信赖的仆人。
There's no leaders.
没有领导。
There are people who are employed that do administrative work, but everything else, and it's been like this for 80-some years.
有些人受雇从事行政工作，但也有其他工作，80多年来一直如此。
It's really quite incredible.
这实在是太不可思议了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there are online meetings.
并且有在线会议。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
There's online meetings.
有在线会议。
They're all over the world.
他们遍布世界各地。
You can find them at any time.
您可以随时找到他们。
That's one of the beauties of 12-step meetings is that, obviously, I'm a therapist.
12步会议的好处之一是，显然，我是一名治疗师。
We have treatment centers.
我们有治疗中心。
It's nice to get people to come to those, and it's great for people to be able to step out.
让人们来参加这些活动真是太好了，而且人们能够走出去也很好。
But there's things that we can do that they can't.
但有些事情我们能做，而他们却做不到。
They're not going to medically detox them.
他们不会对它们进行医学排毒。
They can't keep them out in a safe environment for a period of time.
他们无法将他们留在安全的环境中一段时间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But a kid with a porn addiction, somebody who's abusing alcohol or addicted to food, shopping, gambling, they can find a meeting.
但对于一个沉迷于色情的孩子，一个酗酒或沉迷于食物、购物、赌博的人，他们可以找到一个会面。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
They can find a meeting.
他们可以找到一个会议。
Yep.
是的。
They can find a meeting and, I always tell people to try six different ones.
他们可以找到一个会议，我总是告诉人们尝试六种不同的会议。
They're free.
他们是免费的。
You're going to find your group.
你会找到你的小组。
Listen, they're run by peers, so this is like something that was developed as it would be like if somebody developed a therapeutic modality 80 years ago and then passed it on to everybody that they gave every client they had, and then they ran it.
听着，他们是由同行经营的，所以这就像有人在 80 年前开发了一种治疗方式，然后将其传递给每个人，然后他们为每个客户提供服务，然后他们运行它。
It's not run by professional counselors, although there are professional counselors, and then there's every walk of life from, I've been around people who are anything from priests to rabbis to doctors.
它不是由专业顾问管理的，尽管有专业顾问，而且各行各业都有，我周围的人从牧师到拉比再到医生。
There's no prejudice in the disease.
对于这种疾病没有偏见。
But you can build a community where people are willing to help and be in service to each other.
但你可以建立一个人们愿意互相帮助和服务的社区。
And you can't call a therapist any time during the night.
而且您不能在夜间随时致电治疗师。
You can't just look up and find a meeting and go.
你不能只是抬头找到一个会议然后就走。
And at this point, with things online, you could find a meeting 24 hours a day anywhere.
此时，通过在线，您可以随时随地找到 24 小时的会议。
And the meeting's not going to solve it necessarily, but the fact that you're moving in that direction, if you're spending an hour thinking and reflecting and talking about it, even if you're not in silent meditation, it's almost like a meditation.
会议不一定能解决问题，但事实是，你正在朝那个方向前进，如果你花一个小时思考、反思和谈论它，即使你没有处于沉默的冥想中，它也几乎就像冥想一样。
If you're spending an hour hearing people talk about how they recovered and helping you, it's an hour that you're not doing the other thing.
如果你花一个小时听人们谈论他们如何康复并帮助你，那么你就没有在做其他事情。
And in the beginning, that might be the white-knuckling of it, right?
一开始，这可能是令人紧张的，对吧？
But the idea is to get out of white-knuckling.
但我们的想法是摆脱紧张。
And so the beauty of the 12-step programs, which was founded by the guys that started Alcoholics Anonymous, and then it was Dr. Bob Smith and Bill Wilson.
因此，12步计划的美妙之处在于，它是由戒酒互诫协会的创始人创立的，然后是鲍勃·史密斯博士和比尔·威尔逊。
And the way they discovered it was by helping each other.
他们发现这一点的方式是互相帮助。
Bill Wilson had been trying to get sober for a long time.
比尔·威尔逊长期以来一直在努力保持清醒。
He'd been introduced to something called the Oxford Group, which was more of a religious group based in Christianity, and they had, I think it was a four-step process, which the 12 steps are just kind of really expanded on.
他被介绍给了一个叫做牛津集团的组织，这个组织更像是一个以基督教为基础的宗教组织，我认为这是一个四步骤的过程，这 12 个步骤只是在这基础上进行了真正的扩展。
But in the literature, there's this beautiful moment where Bill Wilson had been trying to stay sober for a while, and he was, but he was really white-knuckling it.
但在文学作品中，有一个美好的时刻，比尔·威尔逊(Bill Wilson)一直试图保持清醒一段时间，他确实做到了，但他真的很紧张。
And he had been at his home in New York, he'd been going into the hospital and helping others, and he found by trying to help others, he stayed sober.
他一直在纽约的家中，一直去医院帮助别人，他发现通过努力帮助别人，他保持了清醒。
And he's a guy that had struggled for a very long time.
他是一个奋斗了很长时间的人。
And none of those guys were staying sober, but he was, which was he first kind of conceptualized this.
这些人都没有保持清醒，但他是，这是他第一次概念化这一点。
And then he was on a business trip in Akron, Ohio, which is where this Dr. Bob Smith lived, and he was staying at this hotel, I think it was called the Mayflower Hotel in the history.
然后他去俄亥俄州的阿克伦出差，就是这个鲍勃·史密斯博士住的地方，他就住在这个酒店，我想历史上叫五月花酒店。
And he had come out of a business meeting, I think it didn't go the way he wanted, and he walked in.
他刚刚结束了一次商务会议，我认为事情并没有按照他想要的方式进行，然后他就走了进来。
And in the story, he's describing hearing the bar and the kind of clinking of the glasses over here and the kind of the call of the bar.
在故事中，他描述了酒吧的声音以及这里的玻璃杯叮当作响的声音以及酒吧的召唤声。
And he had some change in his pocket, and it was in the 1930s, early 1930s, maybe '34 or '35.
他口袋里有一些零钱，那是在 20 世纪 30 年代，1930 年代初，也许是 34 或 35 年。
And then there was a bank of phones over here.
然后这里有一堆电话。
And so he was kind of pulled between the bar and the phones.
所以他有点被拉到酒吧和电话之间。
And for whatever reason, he went to the phones.
不管出于什么原因，他都去打电话了。
He paused, and he went there, and he called.
他停了下来，走到那里，然后打电话过来。
I forget who he called, maybe the hospital, and I think he basically asked if there was any drunks in the town he could help.
我忘记了他给谁打电话，也许是医院，我想他基本上是问镇上是否有醉汉可以帮助。
And they directed him to, in some way, to this doctor, who was like the local town doctor, Bob Smith, and he was also an alcoholic who had struggled for a long time.
他们以某种方式引导他去找这位医生，他就像当地的镇医生鲍勃·史密斯一样，而且他也是一个长期酗酒的人。
And they met, and I think he went to his house, or he might've been in the hospital at the time.
他们见面了，我想他去了他家，或者当时他可能在医院。
I could have the history a little bit wrong.
我的历史可能有点错误。
But they met and started talking, and I think Bob relapsed one more time, but they started talking and helping each other, and then they went and helped another guy.
但他们见面并开始交谈，我认为鲍勃又旧病复发了一次，但他们开始交谈并互相帮助，然后他们去帮助另一个人。
And then they went and helped another guy.
然后他们去帮助另一个人。
And there's a whole history to how it developed and then how they wrote a book together.
关于它的发展以及他们如何一起写一本书，有一个完整的历史。
The book was really meant to send, it was written like four years later, send the information about alcoholism and Alcoholics Anonymous to everywhere in the country where they didn't have meetings.
这本书的真正目的是发送，就像四年后写的那样，将有关酗酒和戒酒互诫协会的信息发送到全国各地他们没有举行会议的地方。
They started having these meetings and helping each other through this step process that they developed.
他们开始召开这些会议，并在他们制定的这一步骤过程中互相帮助。
And it's really interesting because this was one man's decision.
这真的很有趣，因为这是一个人的决定。
Instead of going to the bar or going to the phone, instead of going to the bar, he made one phone call, and that transformed millions of lives.
他没有去酒吧或打电话，而是打了一个电话，这改变了数百万人的生活。
There's millions of members around the world.
全球有数百万会员。
I think he was called either Time Magazine or Life Magazine's 100 Most Influential People of the 20th Century.
我认为他被《时代》杂志或《生活》杂志评为20世纪最有影响力的100人。
And there's still people who find recovery through it, and then they gifted those steps to all of the other things like Cocaine Anonymous and Alcoholics Anonymous.
仍然有人通过它找到了康复，然后他们将这些步骤捐赠给了所有其他组织，例如可卡因互诫协会和匿名戒酒协会。
And it's not for everybody, and they'll even say that in the literature.
这并不适合所有人，他们甚至会在文献中这么说。
That's why I wouldn't consider it a cult because they'll say, "We don't have a monopoly." And of course, you're going to meet personalities in there, but the organization itself is agnostic to religion, to ideas, to politics, and it's a place that people can come and with a common problem and find a common solution.
这就是为什么我不认为它是邪教，因为他们会说，“我们没有垄断。”当然，你会在那里遇到名人，但该组织本身对宗教、思想、政治都是不可知的，这是一个人们可以带着共同问题来到这里并找到共同解决方案的地方。
And these meetings can be the place that hold people as a container.
而这些会议可以成为容纳人的容器。
I always see our treatment centers as like a container of space and time where people can come in and really let themselves fall apart, and we can start helping them build their life back.
我始终将我们的治疗中心视为一个空间和时间的容器，人们可以进来并真正让自己崩溃，而我们可以开始帮助他们重建生活。
But these 12-step meetings are like a container, and people are excited in there to reach out and connect with you.
但这些 12 步会议就像一个容器，里面的人们很高兴与您联系并联系。
And it's in those moments of connection that we can really find healing.
正是在这些联系的时刻，我们才能真正找到治愈的方法。
Look at what happened to him.
看看他发生了什么事。
Instead of going into the bar and connecting with the people in there and drinking, and he had enough evidence to show that drinking would-- It didn't take him in the right direction.
他没有走进酒吧与那里的人交流并喝酒，而且他有足够的证据表明饮酒会——这并没有把他带向正确的方向。
He was able to make a phone call, connect with somebody else, and it created all these connections later on.
他能够打电话，与其他人联系，并且后来创建了所有这些联系。
And it's not a place that people go just to white-knuckle it.
这并不是一个人们只是为了紧张而去的地方。
That's why they might get in there.
这就是为什么他们可能会进入那里。
Nobody usually comes there because they had one bad night of drinking.
通常没有人来这里是因为他们喝了一个糟糕的夜晚。
It's usually, as some people say, "No one comes in here a winner.
正如一些人所说，通常“没有人是胜利者。
They've been on a losing streak." And that's okay, but to be able to admit that and really discover who you are and share that with others and find frivolity and joy in the depths of people's pain, and they can really understand that there's hope, there's promise, and there's a way out.
他们已经连续失败了。”这没关系，但能够承认这一点，真正发现自己是谁，并与他人分享，在人们的痛苦深处找到轻浮和快乐，他们就能真正理解，有希望，有希望，有出路。
And these people who are struggling aren't going to necessarily find that in their first meeting, but they might get the hope and the connection with others.
这些正在挣扎的人不一定会在第一次见面时找到这一点，但他们可能会得到希望以及与他人的联系。
And so they're available out there.
所以它们是可用的。
And if you don't like the 12-step and the spirituality, there's other recovery programs out there or other peer support groups out there like Smart Recovery or Refuge Recovery, and they'll talk about things in a different way.
如果您不喜欢 12 步骤和灵性，还有其他恢复计划或其他同伴支持小组，例如 Smart Recovery 或 Refuge Recovery，他们会以不同的方式谈论事情。
So it's not about finding a specific dogma.
所以这不是要找到一个特定的教条。
Go out and try different things.
出去尝试不同的事情。
Even the act of trying different things is going to help them move out of being stuck in, if it's like the porn addiction, right?
即使是尝试不同事物的行为也会帮助他们摆脱困境，如果这就像色情成瘾一样，对吧？
And then people do reach a certain point in acuity, especially with drugs and alcohol, that they need to be in a facility.
然后人们的敏锐度确实达到了一定程度，尤其是在吸毒和酗酒的情况下，他们需要呆在设施里。
And that might be a hospital, it might be a treatment center.
那可能是一家医院，也可能是一个治疗中心。
And there are resources for that.
并且有这方面的资源。
I think it's a good place for people to start if they don't have the resources to be able to attend a treatment center or work in therapy.
我认为，如果人们没有资源去治疗中心或从事治疗工作，那么这是一个很好的起点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thanks for sharing that avenue for people with all sorts of addictions, not just alcohol.
感谢您为患有各种成瘾（而不仅仅是酗酒）的人们分享这条途径。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
And for the families.
也为了家人。
Al-Anon is for the families.
Al-Anon 适合家庭。
There's Co-Dependents Anonymous, there's Families Anonymous, there's Adult Children of Alcoholics Anonymous.
有互助互助协会、匿名家庭协会、匿名戒酒协会成年子女协会。
Or Adult Children of Alcoholics is really about dysfunctional family systems that people might have grown up, even if their parents weren't alcoholics.
或者《酗酒者的成年子女》实际上是关于人们可能成长起来的功能失调的家庭系统，即使他们的父母不是酗酒者。
So there's stuff out there for everyone.
所以每个人都能找到适合自己的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Prior to this conversation, I solicited for questions from the internet about addiction, broadly speaking, and got some great questions.
在这次谈话之前，我从互联网上征求了有关成瘾的问题，总的来说，并得到了一些很好的问题。
The first question is, "Is addiction the problem?" They put the in quotes, "Or is addiction an attempted solution to a different but less obvious problem?"
第一个问题是：“成瘾是问题吗？”他们在引号中加上了引号，“或者成瘾是为了解决另一个但不太明显的问题而尝试的解决方案？”
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
The short answer to that is both.
简短的回答是两者兼而有之。
The addiction is really the solution to some sort of discomfort or stress that they're experiencing, but then the addiction itself becomes problematic.
成瘾实际上是解决他们正在经历的某种不适或压力的方法，但成瘾本身就会成为问题。
I would say that addiction is the solution in the sense that it's the person's attempt to solve or to find relief from whatever stressor they're experiencing, but it's a solution that becomes problematic.
我想说，成瘾是一种解决方案，因为它是一个人试图解决或寻求缓解他们所经历的任何压力源的方法，但这种解决方案会带来问题。
So it takes on a life of its own.
所以它有自己的生命。
It becomes its own trauma itself.
它本身就成为了自己的创伤。
Drinking alcoholically and blacking out is a trauma to your body, to your brain.
酗酒和昏厥对你的身体和大脑都是一种伤害。
The things that people do in addiction become more traumatic.
人们在成瘾中所做的事情会变得更加痛苦。
I think there's this cycle that I always use in the background called, it's trauma, stress, and addiction.
我认为我总是在背景中使用这个循环，称为创伤、压力和成瘾。
And expanding the definition of trauma to wound, it starts with a wound, and then stress is the relationship to that wound, much like a limp after a broken leg.
将创伤的定义扩展到伤口，它从伤口开始，然后压力就是与伤口的关系，就像腿骨折后跛行一样。
And when stress gets big enough, people look for relief, and so they look to behaviors or substances, which then can, if the stress is big enough and repeated, can become alcoholic.
当压力足够大时，人们会寻求缓解，因此他们会寻求行为或物质，如果压力足够大并反复出现，这些行为或物质就会变得酗酒。
So that stress is not really the wound, it's the relationship to it.
所以压力并不是真正的伤口，而是与伤口的关系。
Like I said, the limp after the broken leg, but that limp, while it's not the broken leg, informs how we walk or don't walk, how we run or don't run, how we view ourselves, how we view the other people in the world view us, and all of those things together can lead to a level of stress where people find relief.
就像我说的，断腿后的跛行，但这种跛行，虽然不是断腿，但它告诉我们如何走路或不走路，我们如何跑步或不跑步，我们如何看待自己，我们如何看待世界上的其他人如何看待我们，所有这些事情加在一起可以导致一定程度的压力，人们可以在其中找到缓解。
And since it's chronic, then they keep using.
由于它是慢性的，所以他们会继续使用。
But then the behaviors and things that they do while they're using or drinking create a trauma itself, which then leads to more stress, which then leads to more addiction.
但他们在使用或饮酒时所做的行为和事情本身就会造成创伤，从而导致更多的压力，从而导致更多的成瘾。
So it becomes kind of this perpetual motion machine, if you will.
所以如果你愿意的话，它就变成了一种永动机。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So the medicine becomes the source of stress.
所以药物就成了压力的来源。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are GLP-1 agonists, things like Ozempic, Wegovy, et cetera, being used for addiction outside the context of weight loss?
GLP-1 激动剂（例如 Ozempic、Wegovy 等）是否在减肥之外用于成瘾？
Interesting question.
有趣的问题。
And will this happen in an official capacity or remain off-label use?
这会以官方身份发生还是仍然在标签外使用？
They're asking your opinion.
他们在征求你的意见。
Are GLP-1s being used to treat addiction to food, and do you think it can be useful for treating addiction to other things?
GLP-1 是否用于治疗食物成瘾？您认为它对治疗其他事物成瘾是否有用？
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
I believe that there's some initial research going on that it can help with cravings and addiction in general.
我相信正在进行一些初步研究，它可以帮助缓解一般的渴望和成瘾。
It makes sense to me.
这对我来说很有意义。
I've heard that anecdotally over the years that people that were diabetic and also alcoholic, but the diabetics that maintained their blood sugar properly had less chance of relapse.
多年来，我听说有这样的传闻：患有糖尿病和酗酒的人，但适当维持血糖的糖尿病患者复发的机会较小。
There's this very simple kind of an acronym called HALT you may have heard of.
您可能听说过一种非常简单的缩写词，称为 HALT。
Hungry, angry, lonely, tired, which seems so simple, it used to drive me crazy, but it's so true that people tend to be at higher risk for relapse or using when they're either hungry, they're angry, they're lonely, or they're tired, and sometimes those things are all together, and those are times in which I would imagine their system is looking for something to-- If you're hungry, you're looking to elevate your blood sugar, and if you can maintain that, I would imagine that it would have some interesting effects.
饥饿、愤怒、孤独、疲倦，这看起来很简单，它曾经让我发疯，但事实是，当人们感到饥饿、愤怒、孤独或疲倦时，他们往往会面临更高的复发或使用的风险，有时这些事情都在一起，而在这些时候，我会想象他们的系统正在寻找一些东西来——如果你饿了，你就会想提高你的血糖，如果你能保持这种状态，我会想象一下它会产生一些有趣的效果。
I was just at a meeting with some of the executives of the major insurance companies.
我刚刚与一些大型保险公司的高管开会。
Our company has a private meeting with them, and they were talking about that's some of the things that they're looking for.
我们公司与他们进行了一次私人会议，他们正在谈论这是他们正在寻找的一些东西。
I'm sure it's been used off-label, but I don't know of anybody that's using it yet on-label for any of that.
我确信它已经在标签外使用，但我不知道有谁在标签内使用它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can somebody be addicted to stress?
有人会对压力上瘾吗？
Meaning, are habits addictions?
意思是，习惯是成瘾的吗？
Those are sort of two questions.
这是两个问题。
Clever.
聪明的。
This person snuck in two questions.
这个人偷偷问了两个问题。
First question, can somebody be addicted to stress?
第一个问题，有人会对压力上瘾吗？
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
I think that people can have their nervous system set in a way that they need that level of stress or activation in order just to kind of get to baseline, in order to kind of feel alive.
我认为人们可以将他们的神经系统设置为他们需要一定水平的压力或激活，以便达到基线，以便感觉到活着。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
I've seen that a lot when I've worked with, especially Special Forces combat veterans, coming home, a lot of the mundane stuff almost didn't feel like they felt alive.
当我和我一起工作时，尤其是特种部队的退伍军人，我见过很多这样的情况，当他们回到家时，很多平凡的事情几乎感觉不到他们还活着。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
And of course, this isn't everybody.
当然，这并不是所有人。
This is the ones that were coming to me, but that they needed to be involved in really risky behaviors or really high adrenaline behaviors.
这些都是我来找的，但他们需要参与真正危险的行为或真正高肾上腺素的行为。
It felt like they were just getting to baseline of being normal.
感觉他们刚刚达到正常的基线。
It wasn't even taking them to another edge.
它甚至没有把他们带到另一个边缘。
And that makes sense to me because a lot of what Basic training or the training that they do later on for more Special Forces is, while it's skills training, it's really nervous system training, right?
这对我来说是有道理的，因为他们后来为更多特种部队进行的很多基础训练或训练虽然是技能训练，但实际上是神经系统训练，对吗？
It's the ability to do those skills under an extreme amount of stress or lack of sleep and everything like that.
这是在极度压力或睡眠不足等类似情况下完成这些技能的能力。
So if they're kind of oriented in that way, then when they come home or they're in environments where it takes a lot to bring them up just to that level of what might feel normal for them, their kind of system is set up much higher than here, and they've got to get up to that to just feel alive.
因此，如果他们以这种方式为导向，那么当他们回到家或处于需要付出很多努力才能将他们提升到他们可能感觉正常的水平的环境中时，他们的系统设置比这里要高得多，他们必须达到这个水平才能感觉自己还活着。
So I don't know if addicted, maybe it is addicted.
所以不知道是不是上瘾了，也许是上瘾了。
I feel like they have a need.
我感觉他们有需求。
You know?
你知道？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
It's a drive.
这是一个驱动器。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
It's a drive.
这是一个驱动器。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Intensity addiction.
强度成瘾。
You and I know some people with that.
你和我认识一些这样的人。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
"I'd like to know about social behavior addictions, social media, coffee, sugar, even work addiction.
“我想了解社交行为成瘾、社交媒体、咖啡、糖，甚至工作成瘾。
And as always, thank you for tackling hard topics." I guess that was directed toward me, but you're the one who's about to try and tackle this topic.
一如既往，感谢您解决棘手的话题。”我想这是针对我的，但你是即将尝试解决这个话题的人。
So, are those things really addictions?
那么，这些东西真的会上瘾吗？
Are people addicted to sugar?
人们对糖上瘾了吗？
Addicted to coffee?
对咖啡上瘾了吗？
Do they meet the classic definition of addiction?
他们符合成瘾的经典定义吗？
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Well, they're not going to meet a diagnostic criteria for it.
嗯，他们不会满足诊断标准。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Progressive, et cetera.
渐进式等等。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah, but I mean, I-
是的，但我的意思是，我-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What is the diagnostic?
诊断是什么？
It's always this progressive...
总是这么进步...
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
I don't know if it was, was it on your podcast or did I read about this somewhere else where when they took, there's the classic study about taking rats with cocaine.
我不知道是不是，是在你的播客上，还是我在其他地方读到过这件事，当他们服用可卡因时，有一个关于给老鼠服用可卡因的经典研究。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
And they'll water and cocaine, and they would press that lever thousands of times to get the cocaine.
他们会水和可卡因，他们会按那个杠杆数千次来获取可卡因。
Somebody else repeated that but added one that had sugar in it, and their cocaine use went significantly down when sugar was also present.
其他人也重复了这一点，但添加了一种含有糖的物质，当糖也存在时，他们的可卡因使用量显着下降。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, meth addicts will consume sugar and meth more readily than-
嗯，冰毒成瘾者比-更容易消耗糖和冰毒——
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
either one alone.
要么单独一人。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
I mean, we see this-
我的意思是，我们看到了这个——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Different drug
不同的药物
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
...
...
we see this when people get sober, that there's people that will get very heavy.
当人们变得清醒时，我们会看到这一点，有些人会变得非常沉重。
They'll engage in what looks like a food addiction, and when we peel that back, I can't tell you how many times I've heard of people recognizing their first addictive behavior was going to the sugar bowl and taking spoonfuls of it.
他们会陷入看起来像是食物成瘾的情况，当我们把它剥开时，我无法告诉你有多少次我听说人们认识到他们的第一个成瘾行为是去糖罐里吃一勺糖。
I've actually heard people say that food addiction, and probably specifically around sugar, is often the primary addiction for people.
我实际上听人们说过，食物成瘾，尤其是对糖的成瘾，通常是人们的主要成瘾行为。
It's kind of like how they get in there.
这有点像他们如何进入那里。
I'm sure that's not true for everybody, but I think if we broaden the term of addiction beyond what a use disorder is in the DSM and move towards do you have it or does it have you?
我确信这对每个人来说都不是这样，但我认为，如果我们将成瘾一词扩大到 DSM 中使用障碍的范围之外，并朝着“你有它还是它有你？”的方向发展。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
I don't think we can become sugar dependent in a way that if we stop it, we're going to go into some sort of major withdrawal, but I would imagine there'd be some sort of withdrawal.
我不认为我们会变得对糖的依赖，如果我们停止糖，我们就会进入某种程度的戒断，但我想会有某种程度的戒断。
Same with caffeine.
与咖啡因相同。
I've seen people go into psychosis with caffeine.
我见过有人因为咖啡因而陷入精神病。
There is a-
有一个-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I never want to find out what happens if I quit caffeine.
我从来不想知道如果我戒掉咖啡因会发生什么。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
You might just always be in psychosis, caffeine psychosis.
你可能一直处于精神病状态，咖啡因精神病。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thanks for that.
谢谢你。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
No, not you.
不，不是你。
I meant all of us.
我的意思是我们所有人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I mean, I love caffeine, but I keep it in check.
我的意思是，我喜欢咖啡因，但我会控制它。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
You can take that out.
你可以把它拿出来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I can sleep well.
我可以睡个好觉了。
No, no, that's fine.
不，不，没关系。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
I actually can sleep on it, too.
其实我也可以睡着了。
Like, never.
就像，从来没有。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I don't drink caffeine past 2:00 PM.
嗯，下午 2:00 以后我就不喝咖啡因了。
Occasionally.
偶尔。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
I don't either, but once in a while I do, and it doesn't...
我也没有，但偶尔我会这样做，但事实并非如此......
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're definitely getting less REM sleep in there, but-
你的快速眼动睡眠肯定会减少，但是-
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
I'm sure I am
我确定我是
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you look rested, so.
你看起来很休息，所以。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Not last night.
不是昨晚。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A lot of questions about ibogaine, probably because of the incredible work of my colleague Nolan Williams at Stanford with these single ibogaine trials for people getting over alcoholism, meaning taking ibogaine once or twice-
关于伊博加因的很多问题，可能是因为我在斯坦福大学的同事诺兰·威廉姆斯所做的令人难以置信的工作，为戒酒的人进行了这些单一的伊博加因试验，这意味着服用伊博加因一次或两次 -
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and mostly in veterans, was covered on the Rogan podcast, and Nolan's been on here.
大部分是退伍军人，在罗根播客上进行了报道，诺兰也参加过这里。
What are your thoughts on the use of ibogaine and other psychedelics?
您对使用伊博加因和其他迷幻药有何看法？
Let's leave MDMA out of it because that's more for the treatment of trauma, and it's not actually a classic psychedelic, but things like psilocybin, ibogaine for people seeking relief from alcohol and drugs specifically, but maybe other addictions.
让我们把摇头丸排除在外，因为它更多地用于治疗创伤，而且它实际上并不是一种经典的迷幻药，而是像裸盖菇素、伊博加因这样的东西，专门针对那些寻求摆脱酒精和毒品的人，但也可能是其他成瘾的人。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
I've seen some pretty incredible things happen with people.
我见过一些令人难以置信的事情发生在人们身上。
And I'm glad that the studies have been going on specifically around psilocybin in the US.
我很高兴这些研究一直在美国专门针对裸盖菇素进行。
I'm not really aware of any around ibogaine, so anybody that is doing ibogaine treatments are either, I don't know if they're finding it in the US or they're going to Mexico or wherever, which is-
我不太了解伊博加因，所以任何正在接受伊博加因治疗的人要么是，我不知道他们是否在美国找到它，或者他们要去墨西哥或其他地方，这是-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Has to be done in Mexico.
必须在墨西哥完成。
They're doing the brain scans at Stanford before and after.
他们之前和之后都在斯坦福大学进行脑部扫描。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not currently, in the new administration-
目前，在新政府中——
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
So they are doing some studies around it
所以他们正在围绕它做一些研究
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the rates of remission from alcohol use disorder and other substance use disorders is somewhere, there's a range, but 40 to, in some cases, 80% with one or two ibogaine trials.
酒精使用障碍和其他物质使用障碍的缓解率是有一定范围的，但通过一两次伊博加因试验可以达到 40% 到 80%（在某些情况下）。
But this is with therapeutic support.
但这是有治疗支持的。
There are a bunch of other things happening there.
那里还发生了很多其他事情。
And then there's evidence of brain plasticity in a number of brain areas.
还有证据表明大脑的许多区域都具有可塑性。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
So I don't know enough about the studies happening before, like they were doing this where Stanford was doing a study and taking people down to Mexico or people going down there to do it.
所以我对之前发生的研究了解不够，就像斯坦福大学正在进行一项研究并带人们去墨西哥或去那里做研究一样。
It was kind of a lot of, I don't know how else to say it, but renegade folks doing it outside.
这是很多，我不知道还能怎么说，但叛徒们在外面做的事情。
It wasn't always run by medical teams and people making sure that everybody is safe, at least from my experience.
它并不总是由确保每个人安全的医疗团队和人员来管理，至少从我的经验来看是这样。
Although, then I've seen some amazing things around it.
尽管如此，我还是看到了一些令人惊奇的事情。
My general take on psychedelics, if I look at PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder, I really see that as you could almost substitute state disorder in there for stress because people get stuck in a certain state, and let's call it the survival state, and that's, as I've said, one of our biggest challenges is that we go into survival mode when we don't need to go into survival mode, an appropriate response at an inappropriate time.
我对迷幻药的一般看法，如果我看看创伤后应激障碍（PTSD），创伤后应激障碍，我真的看到，你几乎可以用状态障碍代替压力，因为人们陷入某种状态，我们称之为生存状态，正如我所说，我们最大的挑战之一是，当我们不需要进入生存模式时，我们进入生存模式，在不适当的时间做出适当的反应。
And so things like psychedelics, or we actually can see this with breathwork, can help people have an experience where they recognize another state, that they can be in another state.
因此，像致幻剂这样的东西，或者我们实际上可以通过呼吸来看到这一点，可以帮助人们获得一种体验，让他们认识到另一种状态，他们可以处于另一种状态。
Not another state of the US, but they have access to something other than survival, and those touchstone experiences can really give them something to build on.
不是美国的另一个州，但他们可以获得生存以外的东西，而这些试金石经历确实可以为他们提供一些可以依靠的东西。
I think Like any other approach to medicine that seems miraculous at times, there's a lot out there of, "This worked for me, so everybody should try it." I'm not concerned about the effectiveness overall of psychedelics, because I think there's definitely a place for them, but I'm really most concerned about the ethics that we develop around them.
我认为，就像其他有时看起来很神奇的医学方法一样，有很多说法，“这对我有用，所以每个人都应该尝试一下。”我并不关心迷幻药的整体效果，因为我认为它们肯定有一席之地，但我真正最关心的是我们围绕它们制定的道德规范。
Who's delivering it?
谁来送货？
What are the rule-outs?
有哪些排除规则？
I know we were going to leave MDMA out, but I know some of the MAPS studies, it was like three sessions, I think it was.
我知道我们要把 MDMA 排除在外，但我知道一些 MAPS 研究，我认为这就像三个会议。
And I don't think that the world that kind of sees those is then taking that, especially in the personal development world, and going, "We're going to do three sessions." It can kind of become something that we do all the time, or microdosing all the time.
我不认为看到这些的世界会接受这一点，特别是在个人发展领域，并说“我们将举行三场会议”。它可以成为我们一直在做的事情，或者一直微剂量的事情。
I don't know enough about it to see if that's going to have an impact.
我对此了解不够，不知道这是否会产生影响。
And there are people with psychological and psychiatric disorders that it can really impact in another way.
有些患有心理和精神疾病的人可能会以另一种方式受到影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Definitely.
绝对是。
Schizotypal, schizophrenic, bipolar.
精神分裂症、精神分裂症、双相情感障碍。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
And I look at it like antibiotics, like penicillin saved a lot of people, but then there's people that it kills, right?
我把它看作抗生素，就像青霉素拯救了很多人，但它也杀死了一些人，对吗？
I can eat peanuts and get protein out of them, and I know people that eat peanuts and they can die, so we-
我可以吃花生并从中获取蛋白质，而且我知道吃花生的人会死，所以我们-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Lousy source of protein, by the way
顺便说一句，蛋白质来源很糟糕
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
...
...
lousy source of protein.
糟糕的蛋白质来源。
Eggs, let's say.
鸡蛋，我们来说说吧。
But we need to really understand the ethics around it and the timeframe, and then make sure that people are following that up with something, because I think you've used this example before of kind of being on a trampoline, and you can jump up and see the top of the building, and you can see where you want to be, but you haven't built the staircase or the elevator yet.
但我们需要真正理解围绕它的道德规范和时间框架，然后确保人们跟进一些事情，因为我认为你以前使用过这个例子，就像在蹦床上一样，你可以跳起来看到建筑物的顶部，你可以看到你想去的地方，但你还没有建造楼梯或电梯。
We've got to go out and build the staircase and the elevator.
我们必须出去建造楼梯和电梯。
So I think they're a great window into how we can be and an experience of this person that I can be, but I don't think that there's going to be some immediate structural change that's going to last.
所以我认为它们是一个很好的窗口，让我们了解我们可以成为什么样的人，以及我可以成为什么样的人的经历，但我不认为会立即出现一些持续的结构性变化。
And the danger in that is then people start using that over and over again and can lean on that as a crutch.
其中的危险在于，人们开始一遍又一遍地使用它，并可以依靠它作为拐杖。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Last question.
最后一个问题。
If we know somebody or are close to somebody that's clearly suffering from addiction or struggling with addiction, what can and should we do?
如果我们认识某人或与某人关系密切，而某人明显患有毒瘾或与毒瘾作斗争，我们可以而且应该做什么？
This sounds like somebody who is aware of the all-too-common scenario of this kid, this parent, this coworker, this significant other is clearly an alcoholic, clearly a drug addict, clearly addicted to fill in the blank.
这听起来像是有人意识到这个孩子、这个父母、这个同事、这个重要的其他人的常见情况，显然是一个酒鬼，显然是一个吸毒者，显然沉迷于填补空白。
What can people reasonably do, assuming that person is not in a medical crisis yet?
假设该人尚未陷入医疗危机，人们可以合理地做什么？
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
I think one of the biggest things we can do is talk to them, but also without shaming them.
我认为我们能做的最重要的事情之一就是与他们交谈，但又不要羞辱他们。
And if you don't know how to talk to them, reach out for some help yourself.
如果您不知道如何与他们交谈，请自己寻求帮助。
Like I said, there's family support meetings like Al-Anon that you can go to.
就像我说的，您可以参加像 Al-Anon 这样的家庭支持会议。
If you reach out to a treatment center like ours, we're happy to talk to the families and help point them in the right direction.
如果您联系像我们这样的治疗中心，我们很乐意与家人交谈并帮助他们指明正确的方向。
But having an open conversation without shaming them and understanding, approaching it with the idea, that this is a disease and like we're talking to a sick friend, not that we're talking to a bad person.
但是要进行公开的对话，不要让他们感到羞耻和理解，带着这样的想法来对待它，这是一种疾病，就像我们在和一个生病的朋友说话，而不是我们在和一个坏人说话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can I ask/offer one, which is if a 12-step meeting is an open meeting, as they call it-
我可以询问/提供一个，即 12 步会议是否是公开会议（他们称之为）-
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
like an open AA meeting-
就像一场公开的 AA 会议——
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
That's right
没错
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you could offer to go with them.
你可以主动提出和他们一起去。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When they do the around the circle thing, if you go and you don't want to say anything, you just say, "Pass." No one's going to-
当他们绕圈的时候，如果你走了，你不想说什么，你就说，“过去”。没有人会——
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah, in a lot of places, they don't even do around the circle.
是的，在很多地方，他们甚至不绕圈子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
So you could take them to a meeting.
这样你就可以带他们去开会。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, as long as it's what's called an open meeting, you don't have to be an alcoholic or an addict to go to that meeting, and so you could take them.
是的，只要是所谓的公开会议，你不必是酒鬼或瘾君子才能参加那个会议，所以你可以参加。
You could even go and just observe.
你甚至可以去观察一下。
Believe it or not, some non-alcoholics have come to 12-step meetings that were open meetings-
不管你信不信，一些非酗酒者参加了 12 步会议，这些会议是公开会议——
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to learn more about it, to then be able to go help somebody that they know.
了解更多信息，然后能够帮助他们认识的人。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
And reach out and find a therapist that can do an assessment.
并联系并寻找可以进行评估的治疗师。
In our mission to create access, we have been really doing some kind of innovative stuff around virtual care and in-home care, so when there are people that are resistant, and maybe it is true that they need to go to a residential treatment center, that we can offer this different service that's much lower cost and covered by insurance, that we can come in and kind of build a relationship with them.
在我们创造机会的使命中，我们一直在围绕虚拟护理和家庭护理做一些创新的事情，所以当有人有抵抗力时，也许他们确实需要去住院治疗中心，我们可以提供这种不同的服务，成本低得多，并且有保险承保，我们可以介入并与他们建立关系。
And sometimes it works for them, and they're able to move through it, and other times, we're able to help them witness their failures and then, having done complete assessments with them, get them to the correct level of care and make sure that the family has everything they need.
有时这对他们有用，他们能够渡过难关，而有时，我们能够帮助他们见证自己的失败，然后与他们一起完成完整的评估，让他们获得正确的护理水平，并确保家庭拥有他们需要的一切。
So those options are out there as well.
所以这些选择也在那里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've seen the work you do help so many people.
我看到你所做的工作帮助了很多人。
So, so many people.
那么，这么多人。
And so I just feel very lucky you could come on here and share with a lot more people.
所以我觉得很幸运你能来到这里与更多的人分享。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm sure you'll get some outreach.
我相信你会得到一些外展服务。
We'll put links to where people can find you and some of the resources and things that you're up to, and the papers and other things mentioned.
我们将提供人们可以在哪里找到您、您正在做的一些资源和事情、以及提到的论文和其他事情的链接。
But yeah, on behalf of myself and everyone listening and watching, I just want to say thank you.
但是，是的，我代表我自己以及所有收听和观看的人，我只想说谢谢。
You're doing incredible work.
你正在做令人难以置信的工作。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
I was reflecting on this a lot before coming out here, but I really appreciate what you do in the world, and especially knowing you and knowing how and why you started it, and there wasn't this grand vision at the end.
在来到这里之前，我对此进行了很多思考，但我真的很欣赏你在这个世界上所做的事情，尤其是了解你，知道你如何以及为什么开始它，并且最终没有这个宏伟的愿景。
It was like, "I'm just going to help people today." I mean, you literally was like, "I'm going to help people today.
就像是，“我今天只是要帮助别人。”我的意思是，你的字面意思是，“我今天要帮助别人。
I'm going to do these little diagrams and these little things, and I'm going to help them today." And helping people today and the next day and the next day has led to you having such an impact in the world.
我将做这些小图表和这些小事情，今天我将帮助他们。”今天、后天和后天帮助人们会让你对世界产生如此大的影响。
I was telling someone on your team earlier, your work makes my work easier.
我之前告诉过你团队中的某个人，你的工作让我的工作变得更轻松。
I've had men specifically, mostly men, that come to me more open because of what they've heard you talk about.
我遇到过一些男性，尤其是男性，他们对我更加开放，因为他们听到了你谈论的事情。
And conversely, I've had men that we're working with that are very closed off, and then I'll have them listen to something that you've done, and it opens them up.
相反，我有一些与我们一起工作的人非常封闭，然后我会让他们听听你所做的一些事情，这会让他们敞开心扉。
My wife wanted me to tell you, she's a therapist, too, and she was running a group this morning with a group of kind of more mentally ill folks, and they were doing a group on stress management, and she used a video of the physiological sigh.
我妻子想让我告诉你，她也是一名治疗师，今天早上她正在与一群精神病患者一起开展一个小组，他们正在做一个压力管理小组，她使用了一段生理叹息的视频。
So she wanted to say thank you for that.
所以她想对此表示感谢。
But I know lots of therapists that are using that, and you make our jobs easier by bringing awareness to the challenges and problems that are out there.
但我知道很多治疗师都在使用它，通过让我们意识到存在的挑战和问题，我们的工作变得更容易。
So I really, really appreciate that.
所以我真的非常感激。
Plus, I just appreciate you as a human being and very much value our friendship.
另外，我很欣赏你这个人，也非常珍惜我们的友谊。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for that.
谢谢你。
That's extremely gratifying to hear.
听到这个消息真是令人非常高兴。
And I'd be remiss if I didn't say that were it not for you and your support and the many things you've taught me and our friendship, I definitely wouldn't be doing this, and maybe wouldn't even be here today at all in the biggest sense.
如果我不这么说，那就是我的失职，如果不是因为你和你的支持，以及你教给我的很多东西和我们的友谊，我绝对不会这样做，也许从最大意义上来说，今天根本不会在这里。
So thanks for everything.
所以感谢你所做的一切。
I appreciate you.
我很欣赏你。
Ryan Soave:
瑞安·索阿夫：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Ryan Suave.
感谢您参加今天与 Ryan Suave 的讨论。
To learn more about Ryan's work and to find links to the various resources discussed during today's episode, please see the show note captions.
要了解有关 Ryan 工作的更多信息并查找今天节目中讨论的各种资源的链接，请参阅节目注释标题。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的关注按钮来关注播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review, and you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您可以给我们留下五星级的评论，现在您可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客或嘉宾有意见，或者您希望我为 Huberman Lab 播客考虑的主题，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body".
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。
This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience, and it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
这是我花了五年多时间编写的一本书，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验，涵盖了从睡眠到运动到压力控制的各个方面的方案，以及与注意力和动机相关的方案，当然，我还为所包含的方案提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There you can find links to various vendors.
在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body".
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。
And if you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab。
So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。
Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
同样，所有社交媒体平台上都是 Huberman Lab。
And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.
我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。
All of that is available completely zero cost.
所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to newsletter, and enter your email.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的菜单选项卡，向下滚动到时事通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件即可。
And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Ryan Suave.
再次感谢您参加今天与 Ryan Suave 的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。