Tim Ferriss: How to Learn Better & Create Your Best Future

Andrew Huberman: Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

Andrew Huberman：欢迎来到 Huberman 实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

Today, my guest is Tim Ferriss.

今天，我的嘉宾是蒂姆·费里斯。

Tim Ferriss is an author, a podcaster, an investor, and is known for having a near supernatural ability to predict the future, which has allowed him to obtain success in a huge number of different endeavors.

蒂姆·费里斯 (Tim Ferriss) 是一位作家、播客、投资者，以拥有近乎超自然的预测未来的能力而闻名，这使他在许多不同的事业中取得了成功。

For instance, he is a five-time, number-one New York Times best-selling author.

例如，他曾五次成为《纽约时报》畅销书作家第一名。

But perhaps equally or more important to that, he's also exceptionally good at teaching people how to write.

但也许同样或更重要的是，他还非常擅长教人们如何写作。

The entire process of writing and marketing a book.

写作和营销一本书的整个过程。

His books, "The 4-Hour Chef" and "The 4-Hour Body" and "The 4-Hour Workweek," not only explain his own exploration of how to optimize and prioritize his time and learn particular skills, but he teaches you those skills as well.

他的书《4 小时厨师》、《4 小时身体》和《4 小时工作周》不仅解释了他自己对如何优化和确定时间优先顺序以及学习特定技能的探索，而且还教给你这些技能。

This is really what sets Tim apart.

这确实是蒂姆与众不同的地方。

He is an exceptional learner and an exceptional teacher, and today you learn why that is.

他是一位杰出的学习者和杰出的老师，今天您就会知道其中的原因。

And in a characteristic Tim Ferriss way, he explains the process in a way that you can apply it.

他以蒂姆·费里斯特有的方式，以一种你可以应用的方式解释了这个过程。

He lists out, for instance, the specific questions that you should ask when approaching any endeavor in order to get the information that you want and to make the process of learning and getting better at something and achieving great success in something that much more likely.

例如，他列出了您在进行任何努力时应该提出的具体问题，以便获得您想要的信息，并使学习和在某件事上变得更好并更有可能在某件事上取得巨大成功的过程。

That ability that Tim has to identify the specific questions that one needs to ask and answer, and the specific action steps to take in order to achieve success, is really what I believe sets Tim apart from everyone else on the internet or on the bookshelf that's giving advice as to how to become good at something.

我认为，蒂姆拥有识别需要提出和回答的具体问题以及为取得成功而需要采取的具体行动步骤的能力，这确实使蒂姆与互联网上或书架上提供有关如何擅长某件事的建议的其他人区分开来。

Tim Ferriss is also dedicated to various philanthropic efforts, the most recent of which is the donation of several millions of his own dollars to research on psychedelics for the treatment of otherwise intractable psychiatric challenges such as major depression, suicidal depression, eating disorders and addiction.

蒂姆·费里斯 (Tim Ferriss) 还致力于各种慈善事业，其中最近的一项是捐赠数百万美元用于研究迷幻药，以治疗其他棘手的精神疾病，如重度抑郁症、自杀抑郁症、饮食失调和成瘾。

And he's also brought together other philanthropists, which has really galvanized the whole field of psychedelic research for the treatment of mental health, transforming it from what was recently kind of a fringe area of science to a mainstay that's actually funded not only by philanthropy, but by the National Institutes of Health.

他还召集了其他慈善家，这确实激发了治疗心理健康的整个迷幻研究领域，将其从最近的边缘科学领域转变为实际上不仅由慈善事业而且由美国国立卫生研究院资助的中流砥柱。

So he's really transformed this entire scientific field into one that now is transforming the laws around psychedelics and is providing mental health treatment for people that would otherwise suffer.

因此，他确实将整个科学领域转变为一个正在改变有关迷幻药的法律，并为否则会遭受痛苦的人们提供心理健康治疗的领域。

Today's discussion was a particularly meaningful one, because not only is Tim a pioneer in the world of podcasting, but it also marked the nine-year anniversary of his podcast, The Tim Ferriss Show.

今天的讨论特别有意义，因为蒂姆不仅是播客世界的先驱，而且还标志着他的播客《蒂姆·费里斯秀》问世九周年。

Now, as I mentioned earlier, Tim is known for being able to see around corners or predict the future.

现在，正如我之前提到的，蒂姆以能够看到拐角或预测未来而闻名。

He really does seem to be about five, if not 10 years ahead of everybody else in thinking about tools for optimization in particular domains of life.

在思考特定生活领域的优化工具方面，他确实比其他人领先了五年甚至十年。

And so we were very fortunate that during today's discussion, he shares with us his current creative endeavours and how he's thinking about and approaching those.

因此，我们非常幸运，在今天的讨论中，他与我们分享了他当前的创造性努力以及他如何思考和实现这些努力。

And he also breaks down for us the process of how to think about and prioritize one's schedule, not just on the order of the day, not just on the order of the week, but really thinking about one's life as a journey and how to organize and go about that journey.

他还为我们分解了如何思考和确定一个人的日程安排的优先顺序的过程，不仅仅是按照一天的顺序，不仅仅是按照一周的顺序，而是真正将一个人的生活视为一次旅程，以及如何组织和进行这个旅程。

So today's discussion will provide with you tremendous insight into who Tim Ferriss is and how that incredible mind of his works in order to do all the amazing things that he's done.

因此，今天的讨论将使您深入了解蒂姆·费里斯是谁，以及他的不可思议的头脑如何工作，以完成他所做的所有令人惊奇的事情。

And of course, he teaches you how to do it.

当然，他会教你如何去做。

He will tell you the exact questions that you should ask and that you should answer, and how to step back and think about those questions and then prioritize so that you can decide how to best invest your time.

他会告诉你应该问和应该回答的确切问题，以及如何退一步思考这些问题，然后确定优先顺序，以便你可以决定如何最好地投资你的时间。

I'm sure many of you are familiar with The Tim Ferriss Show.

我相信你们很多人都熟悉蒂姆·费里斯秀。

However, if you're not already subscribing to The Tim Ferriss Show, I highly recommend you do.

但是，如果您还没有订阅《蒂姆·费里斯秀》，我强烈建议您订阅。

I still go back and listen to early episodes of The Tim Ferriss show, and I'm a weekly listener to the new episodes.

我仍然会回去听蒂姆·费里斯节目的早期剧集，并且我每周都会收听新剧集。

We provide a link to The Tim Ferriss Show in the show note captions.

我们在节目注释标题中提供了蒂姆·费里斯秀的链接。

Also in the show note captions, you'll find links to Tim's many New York Times bestselling books and a link to his excellent weekly blog.

此外，在节目注释标题中，您还可以找到蒂姆的许多《纽约时报》畅销书的链接以及他精彩的每周博客的链接。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是将有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息带给公众。

In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。

Our first sponsor is LMNT.

我们的第一个赞助商是LMNT。

LMNT is an electrolyte drink with everything you need and nothing you don't.

LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，包含您需要的一切，没有您不需要的东西。

That means plenty of salt, magnesium and potassium, the so-called electrolytes, and no sugar.

这意味着需要大量的盐、镁和钾，即所谓的电解质，并且不含糖。

Now, salt, magnesium and potassium are critical to the function of all the cells in your body, in particular to the function of your nerve cells, also called neurons.

现在，盐、镁和钾对于体内所有细胞的功能至关重要，特别是对于神经细胞（也称为神经元）的功能。

In fact, in order for your neurons to function properly, all three electrolytes need to be present in the proper ratios.

事实上，为了使神经元正常运作，所有三种电解质都需要以适当的比例存在。

And we now know that even slight reductions in electrolyte concentrations or dehydration of the body can lead to deficits in cognitive and physical performance.

我们现在知道，即使电解质浓度轻微降低或身体脱水也会导致认知和身体表现缺陷。

LMNT contains a science-backed electrolyte ratio of 1000 milligrams, that's 1 gram of sodium, 200 milligrams of potassium, and 60 milligrams of magnesium.

LMNT 含有科学支持的 1000 毫克电解质比例，即 1 克钠、200 毫克钾和 60 毫克镁。

I typically drink LMNT first thing in the morning when I wake up in order to hydrate my body and make sure I have enough electrolytes.

我通常早上起床后第一件事就是喝 LMNT，为身体补充水分并确保有足够的电解质。

And while I do any kind of physical training and after physical training as well, especially if I've been sweating a lot.

当我进行任何形式的体育训练时以及体育训练后，尤其是当我出汗很多时。

If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt, that's lmnt.com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with your purchase.

如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以访问 Drinklmnt（即 lmnt.com/huberman），在购买时索取免费的 LMNT 样品包。

Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman.

再说一遍，这是 Drinklmnt.com/huberman。

Today's episode is also brought to us by Waking Up.

今天的节目也是由Wakeing Up为我们带来的。

Waking Up is a meditation app that includes hundreds of meditation programs, mindfulness trainings, yoga nidra sessions and NSDR, non-sleep deep rest protocols.

Waking Up 是一款冥想应用程序，其中包括数百个冥想计划、正念训练、瑜伽休息课程和 NSDR（非睡眠深度休息方案）。

I started using the Waking Up app a few years ago because even though I've been doing regular meditations since my teens and I started doing yoga nidra about a decade ago, my dad mentioned to me that he had found an app, turned out to be the Waking Up app, which could teach you meditations of different durations and that had a lot of different types of meditations to place the brain and body into different states, and that he liked it very much.

我几年前开始使用Waking Up应用程序，因为尽管我从十几岁起就开始定期冥想，大约十年前开始做瑜伽休息术，但我爸爸向我提到他找到了一个应用程序，结果是Waking Up应用程序，它可以教你不同持续时间的冥想，并且有很多不同类型的冥想来让大脑和身体进入不同的状态，他非常喜欢它。

So I gave the Waking Up app a try, and I too found it to be extremely useful because sometimes I only have a few minutes to meditate, other times I have longer to meditate.

所以我尝试了Wake Up应用程序，我也发现它非常有用，因为有时我只有几分钟的时间来冥想，其他时候我有更长的时间来冥想。

And indeed, I love the fact that I can explore different types of meditation to bring about different levels of understanding about consciousness, but also to place my brain and body into lots of different kinds of states, depending on which meditation I do.

事实上，我喜欢这样一个事实：我可以探索不同类型的冥想，以带来对意识的不同层次的理解，而且还可以根据我进行的冥想，将我的大脑和身体置于许多不同的状态。

I also love that the Waking Up app has lots of different types of yoga nidra sessions.

我还喜欢“Wake Up”应用程序有许多不同类型的瑜伽休息课程。

For those of you who don't know, yoga nidra is a process of lying very still but keeping an active mind.

对于那些不知道的人来说，瑜伽休息术是一个安静地躺着但保持活跃思维的过程。

It's very different than most meditations, and there's excellent scientific data to show that yoga nidra, and something similar to it called non-sleep deep rest, or NSDR, can greatly restore levels of cognitive and physical energy, even with just a short ten-minute session.

它与大多数冥想有很大不同，并且有出色的科学数据表明，瑜伽休息术以及类似的非睡眠深度休息（NSDR）可以极大地恢复认知和身体能量水平，即使只是短短的十分钟课程。

If you'd like to try the Waking Up app, you can go to wakingup.com/huberman and access a free 30-day trial.

如果您想尝试 Waking Up 应用程序，可以访问 wakingup.com/huberman 并获得 30 天的免费试用。

Again, that's wakingup.com/huberman to access a free 30-day trial.

同样，访问 wakingup.com/huberman 即可获得 30 天免费试用。

And now for my discussion with Tim Ferriss.

现在我与蒂姆·费里斯进行讨论。

Tim Ferriss, , I am nothing short of thrilled to have you here.

蒂姆·费里斯 (Tim Ferriss)，您能来到这里我非常高兴。

I've been reading your books, reading your blogs, listening to your podcasts for a very long time.

我读你的书、读你的博客、听你的播客已经很长时间了。

And in preparing for today, I was thinking, who does Tim remind me of?

在为今天做准备时，我在想，蒂姆让我想起了谁？

Because I knew you reminded me of somebody, but I didn't know who.

因为我知道你让我想起了某个人，但我不知道是谁。

And then I realized it.

然后我意识到了。

You remind me of the neurobiologist Santiago Ramón y Cajal.

你让我想起了神经生物学家圣地亚哥·拉蒙·卡哈尔。

You don't look anything like him.

你看起来一点也不像他。

He doesn't look anything like you.

他看起来一点也不像你。

He was a brilliant scientist.

他是一位杰出的科学家。

He won the Nobel Prize in 1906 for essentially describing the structure of the nervous system.

1906年，他因对神经系统结构的本质描述而获得诺贝尔奖。

He was the first, along with another guy, to define synapses like this fundamental connection, the nervous system.

他和另一个人是第一个定义突触的人，比如这种基本的联系，即神经系统。

But the reason that you remind me of Cajal is that it's a well-known or not-so-secret secret in neuroscience that if you want to pick a really excellent project to work on, you simply go and look at what Cajal talked about, or hypothesized, and then you work on that.

但你让我想起卡哈尔的原因是，这是神经科学领域一个众所周知的或不那么秘密的秘密，如果你想选择一个真正优秀的项目来开展工作，你只需去看看卡哈尔谈论或假设的内容，然后你就可以进行研究。

He had this almost supernatural ability to look at fixed, stained tissue of the nervous system.

他有一种近乎超自然的能力，可以观察神经系统中固定的、染色的组织。

Much of it is incredibly beautiful, by the way, and think about how it worked when it was alive.

顺便说一句，其中大部分都非常美丽，想想它在活着的时候是如何运作的。

And he's considered the greatest neurobiologist of all time, without question.

毫无疑问，他被认为是有史以来最伟大的神经生物学家。

And it's really this feature of being able to see around corners or into the future that establishes that link, for me.

对我来说，正是这种能够看到周围或未来的特征建立了这种联系。

It's absolute truth that if you look back to what you were doing 10 years ago, 15 years ago, the kinds of things you were doing, the kinds of questions you were asking, that translates to much of what people like myself and people in the fitness space, tech space, investor space, mindfulness space, psychedelic space, all these different arenas, what they're doing now.

这是绝对的事实，如果你回顾一下你 10 年前、15 年前所做的事情，你所做的事情，你问的问题，这就会转化为像我这样的人以及健身领域、科技领域、投资者领域、正念领域、迷幻领域以及所有这些不同领域的人们现在所做的事情。

So it's not hyperbole to say that you are the Santiago Ramón y Cajal of all those different spaces, and podcasting, of course, is one of those.

因此，毫不夸张地说，您是所有这些不同领域中的圣地亚哥·拉蒙·卡哈尔 (Santiago Ramón y Cajal)，播客当然就是其中之一。

So I owe you a great debt of gratitude, and many others do as well.

因此，我对你们深表感激，许多其他人也一样。

So my first question for you is, what was your mindset around the time that you wrote "4-Hour Body," "4-Hour Workweek," but in particular "4-Hour Body," because the protocols in that book are so very useful.

所以我要问你的第一个问题是，当你写《4 小时健身》、《每周工作 4 小时》，特别是《4 小时健身》时，你的心态是什么，因为那本书中的协议非常有用。

They were at the time it was published, they still are now.

它们在出版时是这样，现在仍然是。

And so many of the things like ice baths, the discussion around brown fat thermogenesis, resistance training in its kind of basic form of just providing enough progressive overload to get an adaptation, not excessively long workouts, weight loss, slow-carb diet, and on and on and on.

还有很多事情，比如冰浴、关于棕色脂肪产热的讨论、阻力训练的基本形式，即提供足够的渐进式超负荷以获得适应，而不是过长的锻炼、减肥、慢碳水化合物饮食等等。

What were you thinking?

你在想什么？

At that time, if you can think back to them, what were you foraging for?

那时，如果你能回想一下他们，你在寻找什么？

What were you thinking about when you woke up in the morning thinking, oh I'm going to go find all this stuff that at the time was really esoteric, because it is all played out very well.

当你早上醒来时，你在想什么，哦，我要去寻找所有这些当时非常深奥的东西，因为它们都表现得很好。

What I'm basically saying is, if you want to know what's going to be happening hot and useful in five years, ten years and onwards, just look at what Tim's doing at any moment.

我基本上想说的是，如果你想知道五年、十年及以后会发生什么热门且有用的事情，只要看看蒂姆随时在做什么就可以了。

So there it is.

就是这样。

Tim Ferriss: Well, thank you for the very generous comparison and intro.

蒂姆·费里斯：嗯，谢谢您非常慷慨的比较和介绍。

I'm thrilled to be here, so thanks for having me.

我很高兴来到这里，感谢您的到来。

And "The 4-Hour Body" represented an opportunity for me to do a few things.

“四小时身体”为我提供了做一些事情的机会。

The first was to diversify my identity from outside of the realm of the, say, business category.

第一个是使我的身份在商业领域之外多样化。

So it was a deliberate move, since the success of the first book bought me permission to do something else that publishers would still want to gamble on.

所以这是一个经过深思熟虑的举动，因为第一本书的成功让我可以做一些出版商仍然想赌的其他事情。

I wanted to see if I could maybe, like a Michael Lewis, take my audience with me to other topics.

我想看看我是否可以像迈克尔·刘易斯那样，带领我的观众讨论其他话题。

So that was a lateral move that was very deliberate from a career optionality standpoint.

因此，从职业选择的角度来看，这是一次非常深思熟虑的横向调动。

And then I was doing, I think, what I've done for a very long time, and what I enjoy doing, which is looking at the most prevalent beliefs and maybe dogmatic assumptions in a given field, could be anything.

然后我认为，我做了很长一段时间以来所做的事情，以及我喜欢做的事情，那就是研究特定领域中最普遍的信念，也许还有教条性的假设，可以是任何事情。

If anyone says "always," "never," "should," I pay attention and take note of that.

如果有人说“总是”、“从不”、“应该”，我会注意并记录下来。

They may very well be right, but if anything is said in absolutes, I like to stress test.

他们很可能是对的，但如果绝对的话，我喜欢进行压力测试。

And in the case of, say, physical performance or physical manipulation, tracking.

就身体表现或身体操纵而言，跟踪。

2008, 2009 was a very interesting time because a number of different technologies were coming online, meaning being adopted by small groups.

2008 年、2009 年是非常有趣的时期，因为许多不同的技术正在上线，这意味着被小团体采用。

You had the very early stages of, say, accelerometers as wearables.

例如，加速度计作为可穿戴设备处于非常早期的阶段。

You had a number of different innovations and means of tracking that had never been available before.

您拥有许多以前从未有过的不同创新和跟踪方法。

You had, for instance, and this took a bit of ferreting on my side.

例如，你有过这样的经历，这让我费了一番功夫。

It wasn't immediately on the roadmap for "4-Hour Body," but continuous glucose monitors at the time, that was, I want to say, exclusively limited to type 1 diabetics, or maybe type 2 diabetics, but largely type 1 diabetics.

它并没有立即出现在“4 小时身体”的路线图上，但当时的连续血糖监测仪，我想说，仅限于 1 型糖尿病患者，或者可能是 2 型糖尿病患者，但主要是 1 型糖尿病患者。

And what captured my interest, and I can't recall how I came across it, but it was probably through the very earliest iterations of what later became the Quantified Self movement.

是什么引起了我的兴趣，我不记得我是如何发现它的，但这可能是通过后来成为量化自我运动的最早的迭代。

And I remember attending the very first gathering at Kevin Kelly's house in Pacifica, California.

我记得参加在加利福尼亚州帕西菲卡凯文·凯利家中举行的第一次聚会。

This was around 2009, 12 people, 13 people, to discuss quantifying health.

这是2009年左右，12个人，13个人，讨论量化健康。

But the example of a professional race car driver, I can't remember the form factor, whether it was F1 or NASCAR or other, who was using this continual glucose monitor for paying attention to glucose levels while driving.

但以职业赛车手为例，我不记得其外形尺寸，无论是 F1 还是 NASCAR 还是其他赛车手，他在驾驶时使用这种连续血糖监测仪来关注血糖水平。

And I thought to myself, would that not be useful for healthy normals?

我心想，这对健康正常人来说难道没有用吗？

Would that not have other applications?

难道就没有其他应用吗？

If this is being used by a high performer in this type of context, might it have other types of applications?

如果高性能者在这种类型的环境中使用它，它是否可能有其他类型的应用程序？

Which then led me to use the very early versions of DexCom, which were really painful to implant.

这导致我使用了 DexCom 的早期版本，植入起来非常痛苦。

No longer the case, of course.

当然，现在不再是这样了。

That's changed a lot.

这改变了很多。

And I wanted to see how I might be able to find a handful of different categories of things.

我想看看如何找到一些不同类别的东西。

There's the new, like the genuinely new, like CGM at that point was genuinely new, the very old, that might have some room for scientific investigation.

有新的，就像真正的新的，就像当时的 CGM 是真正的新的，非常古老的，可能有一些科学研究的空间。

And I would say, when I say scientific, I don't necessarily mean randomized control trials at a university.

我想说，当我说科学时，我不一定指的是大学的随机对照试验。

I do think, as an N of 1, if you think about study design, and you can even blind, you could even placebo control.

我确实认为，作为 N of 1，如果你考虑研究设计，你甚至可以盲目，你甚至可以安慰剂对照。

And I knew people in the small subculture of Quantified Self who did this.

我认识量化自我这个小亚文化群中的人，他们这样做了。

You can, I think, approach things in a methodical way where you can make a lot of progress in trying to determine causality, or lack thereof, looking at very old things, looking at orphaned things.

我认为，你可以有条不紊地处理事情，在尝试确定因果关系或缺乏因果关系、研究非常古老的事物、研究孤立的事物方面，你可以取得很大进展。

So, for instance, there are many examples in the world of doping where you have, say, BALCO back in the day, where famously Barry Bonds and others purportedly used things like the cream and the clear, and these were based on anabolics that were sourced from Soviet literature or older literature from the fifties that might not be on the radar of, say, the antidoping groups that would administer the testing.

举个例子，在兴奋剂领域有很多例子，比如当年的 BALCO，著名的巴里·邦兹 (Barry Bonds) 和其他人据称使用了奶油和透明等物质，而这些都是基于源自苏联文献或五十年代旧文献的合成代谢物质，而这些物质可能不会受到管理测试的反兴奋剂组织的关注。

So all of these different buckets were of interest to me.

所以所有这些不同的桶都引起了我的兴趣。

And I begin where I usually do, which is interviewing folks.

我从我通常做的地方开始，那就是采访人们。

So I would interview one or two people in a given field, and I might ask them any number of questions.

所以我会采访特定领域的一两个人，我可能会问他们很多问题。

So one is, what are the nerds doing on the weekends or at night?

那么一是，书呆子们周末或晚上在做什么？

This is also really good for investing.

这对于投资来说也是非常有利的。

It's like, all right, what are the really technical nerds doing at night or on the weekends after they've put in a really long workday or workweek?

这就像，好吧，真正的技术迷在经历了很长的工作日或每周工作后，晚上或周末在做什么？

Let's take a really close look at that.

让我们仔细看看。

Another one is, and I'll create a flow for this, but what are rich people doing now that everyone or tens or hundreds of millions of people might be doing ten years from now?

另一个是，我将为此创建一个流程，但是富人现在在做什么，而十年后每个人或数千万或数亿人可能会做什么？

And an example of that would be, let's just say, full-time assistant, virtual assistant, AI, right?

举个例子，我们可以说，全职助理、虚拟助理、人工智能，对吧？

So we've seen the needs and wants being addressed by different technology, but it's an iteration of the same thing on some level.

因此，我们已经看到不同的技术可以满足不同的需求和愿望，但在某种程度上，这是同一事物的迭代。

In the case of, say, using ChatGPT tied into Zapier for various functions.

例如，使用与 Zapier 绑定的 ChatGPT 来实现各种功能。

And then where are people cobbling together awkward solutions?

那么人们在哪里拼凑出尴尬的解决方案呢？

So where are people piecing together awkward solutions?

那么人们在哪里拼凑出尴尬的解决方案呢？

And is there room for some type of innovation there?

那里是否有某种类型的创新空间？

These are a few of the questions that I would not only ask myself, but ask experts in different areas.

这些是我不仅会问自己，还会问不同领域的专家的一些问题。

So if I end up spending time, say, this was a few years prior to writing "The 4-Hour Body," I spent time at NASA Ames and was interacting with a number of scientists, some people who were working on all sorts of biological tests and looking at genomics and had a very frank discussion about where they thought, if they had to push, right?

因此，如果我最终花时间，比如说，这是在写《四小时身体》之前的几年，我在美国宇航局艾姆斯研究中心度过了一段时间，并与许多科学家进行了互动，其中一些人正在从事各种生物测试并研究基因组学，并就他们的想法进行了非常坦率的讨论，他们是否必须推动，对吧？

So I'll ask questions like, push a little bit into the realm of science fiction and speculation, because I'm sure you can't support any type of projection like that with the literature, with scientific literature.

所以我会问一些问题，比如，稍微深入一下科幻小说和推测的领域，因为我确信你不能支持任何类型的投影，比如文学、科学文献。

But what do you think some of the risks are of, say, publishing your genome?

但您认为公布您的基因组等风险是什么？

Because at the time, a number of high profile folks had just made their full genomes available.

因为当时，许多知名人士刚刚公开了他们的完整基因组。

And they're like, well, I think in the near future, it'd be possible to reconstruct someone's face based on their genetic data.

他们就像，嗯，我认为在不久的将来，有可能根据某人的基因数据重建他的脸。

And they're like, high degree of confidence.

他们就像是高度自信。

Like zero to 100%, how confident?

比如从零到 100%，有多自信？

They're like 80, 90%.

他们大概是80%、90%。

I'm like, okay, I should pay attention to that because if you're making your data available, let's just say, and it's anonymized per se, you still might be identifiable.

我想，好吧，我应该注意这一点，因为如果你提供你的数据，这么说吧，它本身是匿名的，你仍然可能被识别。

It's like, okay, that raises some interesting questions.

就像，好吧，这提出了一些有趣的问题。

Like, okay, well, then how might you get around that?

就像，好吧，那么你该如何解决这个问题呢？

How might you put in safeguards so that you are the one and only keeper of your data, so to speak, brought up all sorts of targeted weaponry, sort of bioweapons possibilities that I was interested in.

你如何采取保护措施，以便你成为你的数据的唯一保管者，可以这么说，提出各种有针对性的武器，我感兴趣的某种生物武器的可能性。

And then I would ask that person who's clearly willing to step outside of the box of whatever he's working on day to day, who are two of your close friends or two thinkers you really pay a lot of attention to, are kind of at the bleeding edge of something and unorthodox?

然后我会问那个明显愿意跳出日常工作框框的人，他们是你的两个亲密朋友或两个你真正关注的思想家，他们是否处于某些事物的前沿并且是非正统的？

And then I would just continue to have these conversations over and over again.

然后我会继续一遍又一遍地进行这些对话。

And the stream of development that I paid a lot of attention to is something along the lines of the following.

我非常关注的发展流程大致如下。

So the very beginnings are usually in some type of extreme case, and I think the extremes, and this goes for product design as well, but the extremes inform the mean, but not vice versa.

因此，一开始通常是在某种类型的极端情况下，我认为极端，这也适用于产品设计，但极端表明平均值，但反之则不然。

So you can actually learn a lot by studying the edge cases.

因此，通过研究边缘案例，您实际上可以学到很多东西。

So racehorses, for instance, you'll often see things start with, say, racehorses, or people with wasting diseases, for instance, or any type of chronic or terminal illness who are willing to try some more experimental interventions.

以赛马为例，你经常会看到事情开始于赛马，或者患有消耗性疾病的人，或者任何类型的慢性或绝症患者，他们愿意尝试更多的实验性干预措施。

Then let's just take one step further, bodybuilding.

那么让我们更进一步，健美。

See a lot of interesting behavior in bodybuilding and high level athletes, then billionaires, then rich people, then the rest of us.

在健美和高水平运动员中看到很多有趣的行为，然后是亿万富翁，然后是富人，然后是我们其他人。

So my assumption is and was for "The 4-Hour Body" that, along the lines of William Gibson's quote, " The future is already here, it's just not evenly distributed." So I'm never predicting the future.

所以我对《四小时身体》的假设是，正如威廉·吉布森的名言，“未来已经到来，只是分布不均匀。”所以我从不预测未来。

I'm just finding the seeds that are germinating that I think are going to bloom and end up spreading really widely.

我只是发现正在发芽的种子，我认为它们会开花并最终广泛传播。

So that's generally where I start.

这通常就是我开始的地方。

And I assume the practitioners are going to be ahead of the papers.

我认为实践者将会领先于论文。

So studying, say, the coaches whose jobs are on the line, who are getting paid based on athlete performance, and assuming that a lot of that will eventually, if it holds up, make its way into, say, the peer-reviewed exercise science papers.

因此，我们要研究那些工作岌岌可危的教练，他们根据运动员的表现获得报酬，并假设其中很多内容最终会被纳入同行评审的运动科学论文中，如果它成立的话。

But it's going to have a lag time of three to five years.

但它会有三到五年的滞后时间。

Andrew Huberman: At least.

安德鲁·休伯曼：至少。

Tim Ferriss: At least.

蒂姆·费里斯：至少。

At least takes a long time.

至少需要很长时间。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

Science is often very slow to catch up.

科学往往追赶得很慢。

You mentioned many things I have questions about.

你提到了很多我有疑问的事情。

You mentioned paying attention to the new, the very old, or the orphaned.

你提到要关注新的、旧的或孤儿。

So interesting.

太有趣了。

And I just thought I'd tell you that when you sit down with a graduate student or a postdoc and they're trying to come up with a project, rarely do you say, what do you want to work on?

我只是想告诉你，当你与研究生或博士后坐下来，他们试图提出一个项目时，你很少会说，你想做什么？

And they fire back like a really interesting question.

他们像一个非常有趣的问题一样予以反击。

Sometimes they do, but that's the rare person.

有时他们会这样做，但那是极少数的人。

More often than not, you'll send them to the literature and they'll come back with like, okay, there's this new technique that we can use to answer a set of questions better than ever before.

通常情况下，你会把他们发送给文献，他们会回来说，好吧，我们可以用这种新技术比以前更好地回答一系列问题。

Or there's a very old theory I want to revisit.

或者我想重新审视一个非常古老的理论。

Or there's this theory that no one pays attention to.

或者有一个没人关注的理论。

In fact, we had one guest on here, Oded Rechavi, who is studying, essentially, inheritance of traits, transgenerational inheritance of traits.

事实上，我们这里有一位客人，Oded Rechavi，他主要研究的是特征遗传，特征的跨代遗传。

It's a little bit, although different from Lamarckian evolution, but it's a lot like that in some ways.

尽管与拉马克进化论有一点不同，但在某些方面很相似。

And these orphan theories that everyone assumed were wrong and there is a basis for them.

这些大家都认为是错误的孤儿理论是有根据的。

So I think there's real genius in that analysis.

所以我认为这个分析是真正的天才。

It also struck me, as you were listing off some of your process circa the writing of "The 4-Hour Body," that I and many other people are probably curious about what the operations around all that looked like.

当你列出《四小时身体》写作过程中的一些过程时，我也感到震惊，我和许多其他人可能很好奇围绕这一切的操作是什么样的。

So are you or were you at the time like waking up in the morning going, okay, I'm going to take a walk and think about the new, the old and the orphaned, or I'm going to take a walk or sit in a chair and think about like, what are the nerds doing right now?

那么，你是否或者你当时是否喜欢早上醒来，好吧，我要去散步，想想新的、旧的和孤儿，或者我要去散步或坐在椅子上想想，书呆子们现在在做什么？

What are rich people doing right now?

现在有钱人都在做什么？

Cobbling together awkward solutions.

拼凑出尴尬的解决方案。

Was that exploration a structured practice for you?

这种探索对你来说是一种结构化的实践吗？

Or is this just something that was the consequence of being Tim Ferriss, waking up in the morning and just leaning into that?

或者这只是蒂姆·费里斯（Tim Ferriss）早上​​醒来并倾向于这样做的结果？

Tim Ferriss: Andrew Huberman: Because I've experienced both.

蒂姆·费里斯：安德鲁·休伯曼：因为我都经历过。

But I think a lot of us are curious.

但我想我们很多人都很好奇。

I mean, there's a lot of mystique around you.

我的意思是，你周围有很多神秘感。

Tim Ferriss: I'll do my best to dispel it.

蒂姆·费里斯：我会尽力消除它。

Andrew Huberman: Whether you like it or not, it's there and we're not trying to pry, but--

Andrew Huberman：无论你喜欢与否，它就在那里，我们并不想窥探，但是——

Tim Ferriss: Pry away.

蒂姆·费里斯：撬开。

Andrew Huberman: --is the establishment of structure for you something that's the consequence of structure in the first place?

Andrew Huberman：——对你来说，结构的建立首先是结构的结果吗？

It's like, okay, now's time to think.

就像，好吧，现在是时候思考了。

Or do you just allow things to geyser up to the surface?

或者你只是让事情浮到表面？

Tim Ferriss: I do both.

蒂姆·费里斯：我两者都做。

And I would say that in the case of "The 4-Hour Body," it's a bit of an anomaly compared to my later books because I had recorded effectively every workout I'd done since age 16.

我想说，就《4 小时健身》而言，与我后来的书相比，这有点反常，因为我有效地记录了自 16 岁以来所做的每一次锻炼。

As a competitive athlete, I had a lot of records and I kept copious notes on supplement use and everything imaginable.

作为一名竞技运动员，我有很多记录，并且保留了大量关于补充剂使用和所有可以想象到的事情的笔记。

So I have what you might call hypergraphia.

所以我患有所谓的书写过多症。

I just capture almost everything in writing and that was very useful because at various points in time, let's just say I looked at a photograph of myself from, I'm making this up, but 2004, and I think I would like to look and feel like that again.

我只是以书面形式捕捉几乎所有内容，这非常有用，因为在不同的时间点，假设我看了一张自己的照片，这是我编造的，但是 2004 年，我想我想再次看到那样的感觉。

Okay, let me revisit my workout logs.

好吧，让我回顾一下我的锻炼日志。

Let me just replicate the preceding three to six months of workouts and look at my intake and my diet at the time.

让我复制之前三到六个月的锻炼，看看当时的摄入量和饮食。

And lo and behold, more or less, I could replicate the same type of look and feel and performance.

你瞧，或多或少，我可以复制相同类型的外观、感觉和性能。

So I had a lot already logged that I thought was worth examining and putting under scrutiny, trying to replicate with other people.

因此，我已经记录了很多我认为值得检查和审查的内容，并试图与其他人一起复制。

I do think replication is really important.

我确实认为复制非常重要。

And then when it came time to commit to writing the book, I thought about what types of minibooks would be of great interest to me personally.

然后，当我决定写这本书时，我想到了我个人会对什么类型的迷你书非常感兴趣。

And that book, like many of my other books, was written in such a fashion that it could be a choose your own adventure book, did not need to be read.

那本书，就像我的许多其他书一样，是以这样一种方式写的，它可以是一本选择你自己的冒险书，不需要阅读。

In fact, in many ways it shouldn't be read linearly from page one to the end.

事实上，从很多方面来说，它不应该从第一页到最后一页线性地阅读。

You get to pick and choose which chapters are of interest based on breath hold, vertical jump endurance, hypertrophy, cold exposure for fat loss, whatever it might be.

你可以根据屏气、垂直跳跃耐力、肥大、寒冷暴露减脂等等来选择你感兴趣的章节。

And then I began talking to people, and at the very outer bounds of self-experimentation, at least in the Bay Area, it's a pretty small community, so you're one or two lily pads from just about everyone.

然后我开始与人们交谈，在自我实验的最外围，至少在湾区，这是一个相当小的社区，所以你几乎是每个人的一两片睡莲。

And it's not accidental that I put myself in that environment in San Francisco specifically, and more generally in the Bay Area, Silicon Valley, because there's just a high surface area for luck to stick to, because you have so many serendipitous encounters, you have so many people focusing on different disciplines that I think was the fertilizer and the fertile ground for everything else was actually the choosing the where of writing, physically being located in San Francisco.

我将自己置身于旧金山的环境中并非偶然，更普遍的是硅谷湾区，因为那里有很大的运气可以坚持，因为有很多偶然的遭遇，有很多人专注于不同的学科，我认为这是肥料，而其他一切的沃土实际上是选择写作的地点，物理上位于旧金山。

And then when I'm structuring things, maybe I'll get into some of the nitty gritty.

然后当我构建事物时，也许我会深入了解一些细节。

But I was using at the time, and I still like to use a program called Scrivener, which is actually designed predominantly for screenwriting.

但我当时在用，而且还是喜欢用一个叫Scrivener的程序，它其实主要是为了编剧而设计的。

It's used for many things now, novels and so on.

现在它被用于很多东西，小说等等。

It's expanded its reach quite a bit, but it allows you to gather research and all of your documents and drafts so that you can move them around in very novel ways, so that you can view, say, a split pane of your research and what you're working on simultaneously, without having to toggle between a lot of different windows.

它的范围扩大了很多，但它允许您收集研究以及所有文档和草稿，以便您可以以非常新颖的方式移动它们，这样您就可以同时查看研究的分割窗格和您正在处理的内容，而无需在许多不同的窗口之间切换。

And I was very promiscuous in my gathering of data.

我在收集数据时非常杂乱。

So I would gather from, say, the Web, using a web clipper from Evernote, which I was involved with as a company, and basically, without bias, capture as much as possible.

因此，我会使用 Evernote 的网络剪辑器（我作为一家公司参与其中）从网络上进行收集，基本上，不带偏见地捕获尽可能多的信息。

Put three asterisks next to anything that I thought I really might want to revisit.

在我认为我确实可能想重新访问的任何内容旁边加上三个星号。

After I had read something a second time, which I would always do, then I could Control F to find just three asterisks, because they don't occur much in normal writing.

当我第二次读完一些东西后（我总是这样做），然后我可以控制 F 找到三个星号，因为它们在正常写作中不会出现太多。

Just like people, authors, writers will use TK, meaning find such and such a date.

就像人、作家一样，作家也会使用TK，意思是找到这样那样的日期。

Data needs to be inserted later.

数据需要稍后插入。

But I don't want to interrupt the flow of writing.

但我不想打断写作的流程。

Let me put in TK, because it doesn't really appear in natural English much in terms of structured thinking.

让我输入 TK，因为就结构化思维而言，它在自然英语中并没有出现太多。

The way I approached it was during that period of time in my life, it was interviews, tracking people down, conversations, emails, reading.

我的处理方式是在我生命中的那段时期，即采访、追踪人员、对话、电子邮件、阅读。

So ingestion, let's just say, for the workday, then a break for training and actually using myself as the human guinea pig for various things that had surfaced that might be on the docket.

因此，我们可以说，在工作日进行摄入，然后休息进行训练，并实际上将自己用作人类豚鼠，以处理可能出现在待办事项中的各种事情。

Andrew Huberman: Where were you training at that time?

Andrew Huberman：当时你在哪里训练？

San Francisco is not famous for amazing gyms.

旧金山并不以令人惊叹的健身房而闻名。

It's not famous for amazing gyms.

它并不以令人惊叹的健身房而闻名。

At the time, I was training mostly at a climbing gym called Mission Cliffs.

当时，我主要在一家名为 Mission Cliffs 的攀岩馆进行训练。

They didn't have much, but they had barbells.

他们没有太多，但有杠铃。

I know that.

我知道。

And they had kettlebells.

他们有壶铃。

I also had in the walkway leading from the front door of the apartment I was renting.

我也在从我租的公寓前门通向的走道上看到了。

It was more of a house, the front door, all the way to the first set of stairs.

它更像是一座房子，前门，一直到第一组楼梯。

There were 30 kettlebells of various types.

有各种类型的壶铃30个。

And I was training for certification because I wanted to put myself on some type of deadline with accountability for that type of training to get a better understanding of it.

我正在接受认证培训，因为我想让自己在某种最后期限内接受此类培训，以便更好地理解它。

So I trained for a few hours.

于是我就训练了几个小时。

I also had developed a friendship with Kelly Starrett, so San Francisco CrossFit, who I have tremendous amount of respect for.

我还与旧金山 CrossFit 的 Kelly Starrett 建立了友谊，我非常尊重他。

Likewise, on multiple levels.

同样，在多个层面上。

Terrific.

了不起。

And his new book, "Built to move." His great book.

还有他的新书《为移动而生》。他的伟大著作。

Tim Ferriss: He's so good.

蒂姆·费里斯：他太棒了。

Yeah, he really not only talks the talk, but walks the walk, and exemplifies many of the capabilities that he teaches, which I take seriously.

是的，他确实不仅说说而已，而且付诸行动，并举例说明了他所教授的许多能力，我对此很重视。

I like practitioners, not just the people with pretty theories.

我喜欢实践者，而不仅仅是那些有漂亮理论的人。

Although theories are important, I prefer to see someone who can actually put them into practice.

虽然理论很重要，但我更喜欢看到能够真正将理论付诸实践的人。

So Kelly served that function, certainly, and we're still very close friends.

所以凯利当然发挥了这一作用，我们仍然是非常亲密的朋友。

And then after that.

然后在那之后。

All right, shake off the cobwebs.

好吧，把蜘蛛网抖掉吧。

Get the body moving, get the brain moving.

让身体动起来，让大脑动起来。

Also eat.

还吃。

And then I would actually focus on synthesis.

然后我实际上会专注于综合。

So I would write generally from, let's call it nine p.m.

所以我通常会从晚上九点开始写信。

Or 10 p.m.

或者晚上 10 点

Through to four or five a.m.

一直到凌晨四五点。

And I would ride the wave if I happened to be in the zone.

如果我碰巧在这个区域，我就会乘风破浪。

If I weren't in the zone, I wouldn't force it and I would try to get more sleep.

如果我不处于这种状态，我不会强迫它，我会尝试获得更多的睡眠。

But I have always performed best with my writing in those witching hours of let's call it 10 p.m.

但我的写作总是在晚上 10 点那段令人着迷的时刻表现得最好。

to four a.m.

到凌晨四点

And my experience is that the writers I've interviewed, the writer friends I've become close with, if you look at when they made themselves not necessarily what they do now, right, but what they did that eventually got them to escape velocity.

我的经验是，我采访过的作家，我认识的作家朋友，如果你看看他们是什么时候做出的，不一定是他们现在所做的，对吧，但他们所做的最终让他们逃离了速度。

They're almost always doing most of their writing very late at night or very early in the morning when the rest of the world or their social group is inactive.

当世界其他地方或他们的社交群体不活跃时，他们几乎总是在深夜或清晨进行大部分写作。

Andrew Huberman: Wow.

安德鲁·休伯曼：哇。

And I say wow because, of course, all of this was prior to the publication of Matt Walker's seminal book.

我说哇，因为当然，所有这一切都是在马特·沃克的开创性著作出版之前。

Tim Ferriss: Right.

蒂姆·费里斯：对。

Andrew Huberman: "Why We Sleep," which I really see as the book that shifted a lot of people, fortunately, from the "I'll sleep when I'm dead" mindset to really paying attention to it, and I don't think Matt gets enough credit.

安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：《我们为什么睡觉》，我真的认为这本书改变了很多人，幸运的是，从“我死后我会睡觉”的心态转变为真正关注它，我认为马特没有得到足够的认可。

I mean, there's been a revision of a few points within that book, but the majority of it is just spot on and hyper legitimate.

我的意思是，对那本书中的一些观点进行了修订，但其中大部分内容都是正确的并且非常合法。

So good.

超好的。

And yet what you're describing is a schedule that starting to write at nine p.m.

然而你所描述的是一个从晚上九点开始写的时间表。

And finishing up around four a.m.

并在凌晨四点左右结束。

But you talked about research earlier that day and training and eating.

但你那天早些时候谈到了研究、训练和饮食。

So were there naps in there?

那么那里有小睡吗？

Tim Ferriss: I would sleep from say four to maybe 11 or 12.

Tim Ferriss：我会从四点睡到十一点或十二点。

So I would be getting up later.

所以我会晚点起床。

And I've had conversations with Matt about this, and there are night owls and morning larks.

我和马特就这个问题进行过交谈，其中有夜猫子和早起的百灵鸟。

And there are certainly differences in the code, meaning the genetics, but that worked very, very well for me for a very long time.

代码（即遗传学）肯定存在差异，但这在很长一段时间内对我来说非常非常有效。

It is, however, a very challenging social schedule.

然而，这是一个非常具有挑战性的社交日程。

So once you have a significant other, and every girlfriend I've ever had is a morning person, if you want to spend time together, that schedule just does not work.

所以一旦你有了一个重要的人，而我曾经有过的每个女朋友都是早起的人，如果你想花时间在一起，这个时间表就行不通了。

So I made compromises later for the social side of things.

所以后来我在社交方面做出了妥协。

But if you put a gun to my head and said you need to write the best book humanly possible, that is your only priority outside of some exercise and fuel.

但如果你用枪指着我的头说你需要写出人类可能最好的书，那么除了一些锻炼和补充能量之外，那就是你唯一的优先事项。

I would follow the same schedule.

我会遵循相同的时间表。

Andrew Huberman: I know several very successful podcasters, Lex Fridman in particular, who I think he's trying to follow a more normal schedule now, but he's pseudo nocturnal, at least by my read.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我认识几个非常成功的播客，特别是莱克斯·弗里德曼，我认为他现在正试图遵循更正常的时间表，但他是伪夜间活动的，至少从我看来是这样。

And there are a couple other online content creators, Derek from More Plates, More Dates, who's hyper productive in his domain and is mostly nocturnal.

还有其他一些在线内容创作者，来自 More Plates, More Dates 的 Derek，他在自己的领域中工作效率极高，而且大多在夜间活动。

And then as you're describing your writing routine and your overall routine, I was thinking, you know, the great skateboarder.

然后，当你描述你的写作习惯和整体习惯时，我在想，你知道，伟大的滑板运动员。

Everyone knows Tony Hawk, who is obviously a great skateboarder, no doubt about that.

每个人都知道托尼·霍克（Tony Hawk），毫无疑问，他显然是一位伟大的滑板运动员。

But Rodney Mullen, who invented the ollie on street, the kickflip.

但是罗德尼·马伦（Rodney Mullen），他发明了街头奥利（ollie）和踢腿翻转（kickflip）。

Rodney is basically nocturnal and has been for a long time and would skateboard up and down the boardwalk in Santa Monica in the middle of the night because lack of distraction.

罗德尼基本上是夜间活动的，而且已经有很长一段时间了，因为没有分心，他会在半夜在圣莫尼卡的木板路上滑滑板。

And he's been doing that since his teens.

他从十几岁起就一直这样做。

I don't know what he's doing these days, but I think a lot of creators just need space.

我不知道他这些天在做什么，但我认为很多创作者只是需要空间。

And I always wonder if that's because at least the ones that are not socially dysfunctional, like yourself, who when they are around people, there's this almost hopefully a desire to interact.

我总是想知道这是否是因为至少那些没有社交障碍的人，比如你，当他们在人们身边时，几乎希望有一种互动的愿望。

So you almost have to remove the stimulus completely.

所以你几乎必须完全消除刺激。

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, it removes the plausible deniability, which might not be the perfect use of that phrase, but in the sense that it's harder to fool yourself into thinking you're doing something important when you're checking your messages or social media at two in the morning, who are we kidding, folks?

蒂姆·费里斯：是的，它消除了看似合理的否认，这可能不是该短语的完美用法，但从某种意义上说，当你在凌晨两点查看消息或社交媒体时，很难欺骗自己认为自己正在做一些重要的事情，伙计们，我们在开玩笑吗？

You should be writing, in this case, and writers will do anything to avoid writing.

在这种情况下，你应该写作，而作家会尽一切努力避免写作。

I remember Ayn Rand wrote a book about writing, which is actually fantastic.

我记得艾因·兰德写过一本关于写作的书，这本书真的很棒。

I can't remember the exact title.

我不记得确切的标题了。

It might just be on nonfiction writing, something like that.

可能只是非小说类写作之类的。

And she talked about polishing the sneakers or the shoes before writing.

她谈到在写作之前要擦亮运动鞋或鞋子。

Like, I really just need to do this one thing, which is to just clean up that shoe, because somebody should really clean it up, and at some point I should clean it up.

就像，我真的只需要做一件事，就是清理那只鞋子，因为有人真的应该清理它，在某个时候我应该清理它。

And therefore, why don't I just do, there's no time like the present.

因此，我为什么不这么做呢，没有比现在更好的时间了。

I'll just do that.

我就这么做。

And it's all to avoid writing, which is the harder thing.

而这一切都是为了避免写作，这是更难的事情。

And in my conversations with Matt also, I should say that as someone who has self-described as a person who struggles with onset insomnia, Matt made the point, and sometimes we need to relearn things.

在我与马特的谈话中，我也应该说，作为一个自称为与失眠作斗争的人，马特提出了这一点，有时我们需要重新学习一些东西。

Maybe you should just go to bed later.

也许你应该晚点去睡觉。

Sure.

当然。

And that might address some of this onset insomnia.

这可能会解决一些失眠问题。

And I don't know the causes for that, but I do get a second wind very late.

我不知道其中的原因，但我确实很晚才恢复过来。

Could be related to some cortisol release abnormality or just different scripting in my system, who knows?

可能与某些皮质醇释放异常有关，或者只是我系统中的不同脚本有关，谁知道呢？

Andrew Huberman: I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Athletic Greens.

Andrew Huberman：我想稍微休息一下，并感谢我们的赞助商之一，Athletic Greens。

Athletic Greens, now called AG1, is a vitamin-mineral-probiotic drink that covers all of your foundational nutritional needs.

Athletic Greens（现称为 AG1）是一种维生素-矿物质-益生菌饮料，可满足您的所有基本营养需求。

I've been taking Athletic Greens since 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring the podcast.

我自 2012 年以来一直在服用 Athletic Greens，所以我很高兴他们赞助这个播客。

The reason I started taking Athletic Greens, and the reason I still take Athletic Greens once or usually twice a day, is that it gets me the probiotics that I need for gut health.

我开始服用运动绿色食品的原因，以及我仍然每天服用一次或通常两次运动绿色食品的原因是，它能为我提供肠道健康所需的益生菌。

Our gut is very important.

我们的直觉非常重要。

It's populated by gut microbiota that communicate with the brain, the immune system, and basically all the biological systems of our body to strongly impact our immediate and long-term health.

它充满了肠道微生物群，它们与大脑、免疫系统以及我们身体的所有生物系统进行交流，对我们的近期和长期健康产生强烈影响。

And those probiotics and Athletic Greens are optimal and vital for microbiotic health.

这些益生菌和运动绿色食品对于微生物健康来说是最佳且至关重要的。

In addition, Athletic Greens contains a number of adaptogens, vitamins and minerals that make sure that all of my foundational nutritional needs are met.

此外，运动绿叶蔬菜还含有多种适应原、维生素和矿物质，可确保满足我所有的基本营养需求。

And it tastes great.

而且味道好极了。

If you'd like to try Athletic Greens, you can go to athleticgreens.com/huberman and they'll give you five free travel packs that make it really easy to mix up Athletic Greens while you're on the road, in the car, on the plane, etc. And they'll give you a year supply of vitamin D3 K2.

如果您想尝试 Athletic Greens，您可以访问 Athletic Greens.com/huberman，他们会为您提供 5 个免费旅行包，让您在路上、车内、飞机上等时轻松混合 Athletic Greens。他们还会为您提供一年的维生素 D3 K2。

Again, that's athleticgreens.com/huberman to get the five free travel packs and the year supply of vitamin D3 K2.

再次强调，您可以访问 sportsgreens.com/huberman 获取 5 个免费旅行包和全年维生素 D3 K2 供应量。

Tim Ferriss: I'll mention one other maybe heuristic that I use for trying to peek around corners, which is if I find an example of an outlier — trying to find two or three, right.

蒂姆·费里斯：我会提到另一种可能是我用来试图窥视角落的启发式方法，即如果我找到一个异常值的例子 - 试图找到两个或三个，对吧。

Because one is an exception.

因为有一个人是例外。

Two is interesting, three is worth investigating.

其中两个很有趣，三个值得研究。

That's sort of how I think about it.

我就是这么想的。

And I recognize the plural of anecdote does not equal data.

我认识到轶事的复数并不等于数据。

However, a lot of interesting discoveries begin as case studies or case histories.

然而，许多有趣的发现都是从案例研究或案例历史开始的。

So there are some things we can talk about that I've paid attention to over the last few years that are not in "The 4-Hour Body" that I think are quite interesting and raise very exciting questions.

因此，我们可以谈论一些我在过去几年中关注的事情，这些事情不在《四小时身体》中，我认为这些事情非常有趣，并提出了非常令人兴奋的问题。

Andrew Huberman: I'd love to hear about those.

Andrew Huberman：我很想听听这些。

Tim Ferriss: Yeah.

蒂姆·费里斯：是的。

Andrew Huberman: And along the lines of what I call anecdata.

Andrew Huberman：沿着我所说的轶事。

I mean, most of what we know about human memory stems from one patient, HM.

我的意思是，我们对人类记忆的了解大部分来自一位患者，HM。

Who had his hippocampi removed for epilepsy.

他因癫痫症切除了海马体。

And of course, there have been millions, probably close to millions of studies in animals and humans focusing on the hippocampi.

当然，已经有数百万、可能接近数百万的动物和人类研究集中在海马体上。

But most of what we know about human memory is from one guy.

但我们对人类记忆的了解大部分来自于一个人。

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, exactly.

蒂姆·费里斯：是的，完全正确。

So there's a lot to be examined.

所以有很多东西需要检查。

Not all of it will get funding for RCTs.

并非所有这些都会获得随机对照试验的资金。

Let's be realistic.

让我们现实点吧。

This is especially true if you're hoping for any type of directive data.

如果您希望获得任何类型的指令数据，则尤其如此。

Notice I'm not saying conclusive, but if you are a human who's going to be making decisions about diet, health, exercise, if you want any consensus, you're doomed.

请注意，我并不是说结论性的，但如果你是一个要在饮食、健康、锻炼方面做出决定的人，如果你想要达成共识，那么你就注定失败。

You're not going to get any answers before you die.

在你死之前你不会得到任何答案。

Andrew Huberman: Can you say that twice so that the internet can hear it extra loud and clear?

安德鲁·休伯曼：你能说两遍，以便互联网能​​够听得更响亮、更清晰吗？

For those of you that are arguing about nutrition on Twitter, it might actually be life wasted.

对于那些在推特上争论营养问题的人来说，这实际上可能是在浪费生命。

I'm not being judgmental.

我不是在评判。

I mean, I think that there's validity in lots of those pockets, there's stuff that's wrong.

我的意思是，我认为很多口袋里的东西都是有效的，但也有一些东西是错误的。

In lots of those pockets, there are diets that work extremely well, like 4-Hour Diet...

在很多人的口袋里，有一些非常有效的节食方法，比如 4 小时节食法……

Slow-Carb.

慢碳水化合物。

I always call the 4-Hour Diet, but the Slow-Carb diet, it works extremely well.

我总是把“4小时饮食”称为“慢碳水化合物饮食”，它的效果非常好。

Anytime I've followed it, I get much leaner and stronger and all that stuff that it's purported to do, it works.

每当我遵循它时，我都会变得更瘦、更强壮，所有它声称能做的事情，它都有效。

But yeah, maybe you could just explain what you mean by that, because I think there are some argument friction spaces that are truly an energy sink.

但是，是的，也许你可以解释一下你的意思，因为我认为有一些争论摩擦空间确实是一个能量汇。

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, I would just say focus on what works for you and your family or your team.

蒂姆·费里斯：是的，我只想说专注于对你和你的家人或你的团队有用的事情。

And if you're arguing on the internet, recognize that you're just doing it because you like arguing on the internet, you're not going to convince anyone of anything, and you're just going to make yourself more frustrated if you plan on changing any opinions.

如果您在互联网上争论，请认识到您这样做只是因为您喜欢在互联网上争论，您不会说服任何人任何事情，而且如果您打算改变任何观点，只会让自己更加沮丧。

So for me, it's live and let live.

所以对我来说，就是活下去，也让别人活下去。

And the more people who engage in that type of behavior, the more competitive advantage do you have if you don't.

从事这种行为的人越多，如果你不这样做，你的竞争优势就越大。

So for me, I'm like, okay, if you want to spend this vital, nonrenewable resource of yours called time on that, if I ever compete against you, I'm going to win.

所以对我来说，我想，好吧，如果你想把你的这种重要的、不可再生的资源（称为时间）花在这上面，如果我与你竞争，我就会赢。

So great.

太棒了。

I'll also not even try to convince you to stop doing that unless you see the logic in it, which I have, which is why I also don't have, at least for two years, have mostly had no social apps installed on my phone.

我什至不会试图说服你停止这样做，除非你看到其中的逻辑，我有，这就是为什么我也没有，至少两年来，大部分没有在我的手机上安装社交应用程序。

And we could talk about that because I think recognizing that these things have been engineered to overcome any type of self-discipline with billions of dollars at stake should lead you to believe that you're bringing a knife to a gunfight.

我们可以讨论这一点，因为我认为认识到这些东西的设计目的是为了克服任何类型的自律，并涉及数十亿美元，这应该会让你相信你是在枪战中带刀。

So I just don't have the apps on my phone to begin with.

所以我的手机上一开始就没有这些应用程序。

And I find it much more gratifying to see disproportionate change from small inputs.

我发现更令人欣慰的是看到小投入带来不成比例的变化。

So that's what I'm looking for.

这就是我正在寻找的。

And I'm also looking for changes that are easy to make, that can have high adherence, that have very limited downside, which is very different from proving something.

我也在寻找容易做出的改变，可以有很高的依从性，负面影响非常有限，这与证明某件事有很大不同。

For instance, in "The 4-Hour Body" took a look at the potential effect of cell phones or the proximity of cell phones to, say, gonadal function and reproductive health.

例如，在《4 小时身体》中，研究了手机或手机对性腺功能和生殖健康等的潜在影响。

And the literature that was available at the time was very limited.

而且当时可获得的文献非常有限。

Had some animal studies, mice, rats, etc. I recognize humans are not just large mice, so they don't always translate.

有一些动物研究，老鼠，大鼠等。我认识到人类不仅仅是大老鼠，所以他们并不总是翻译。

But I looked at it and I said, okay, looking at this simplistically, is it plausible that there could be similar effects on humans?

但我看了之后说，好吧，简单地看一下，对人类是否可能产生类似的影响？

Seems to be the case also based on conversations with people who are specialists, but would never go on record.

根据与专家的对话，情况似乎也是如此，但永远不会记录下来。

Therefore, if your phone is in your pocket, just have it on airplane mode.

因此，如果您的手机在口袋里，请将其设置为飞行模式。

I mean, it does not have a high cost.

我的意思是，它的成本并不高。

And then pending any revision, we can see.

然后等待任何修改，我们可以看到。

But while the jury is still out, I'm going to risk-mitigate by taking this step.

但尽管目前还没有定论，但我将采取这一步骤来降低风险。

Andrew Huberman: Well, and I just want to say thank you there too.

Andrew Huberman：嗯，我也想对你们说声谢谢。

I read that recommendation.

我读了那篇建议。

I followed the recommendation of not keeping the phone on in my front pocket or back pocket, again, that's anecdata.

我遵循了不要将手机放在前袋或后袋中的建议，这又是轶事。

My sperm analysis isn't relevant to this conversation, Andrew Huberman and Tim Ferriss : but worked out.

安德鲁·胡伯曼和蒂姆·费里斯，我的精子分析与这次谈话无关：但成功了。

But you could say, well, that's not necessarily because you had the phone off, but I did a very long, detailed episode on male and female fertility.

但你可以说，好吧，这不一定是因为你把电话关了，但我做了一个关于男性和女性生育能力的很长、详细的剧集。

There is now what I view as a really quality meta-analysis.

现在我认为这是一个真正高质量的荟萃分析。

And it's pretty clear that there are effects of the smartphone, on proximity of the smartphone, when it's turned on, that are not good for sperm, isn't necessarily going to render somebody sterile, but on sperm that can be separated out from the heat effects.

很明显，智能手机在打开时会对智能手机的接近程度产生影响，这对精子不利，不一定会使人不育，但对可以从热效应中分离出来的精子有影响。

And so essentially, this is another instance in which you were right.

所以本质上，这是你是对的另一个例子。

And I think more data will come out and am I an EMF conspiracy theorist?

我认为更多的数据将会出现，我是 EMF 阴谋论者吗？

No. Do I wear tinfoil underwear?

不，我穿锡纸内衣吗？

No. But I think it's interesting.

不，但我认为这很有趣。

I think it's important, and thanks to you, cued my attention to it.

我认为这很重要，多亏了你，我才注意到它。

In fact, I teach about that in a course on neural circuits and biology and health and disease.

事实上，我在一门关于神经回路、生物学、健康与疾病的课程中教授了这一点。

Tim Ferriss: Amazing.

蒂姆·费里斯：太棒了。

And I don't expect to get everything right at all.

而且我根本不指望一切都会好起来。

That would be crazy.

那太疯狂了。

I'd like to think I'm not totally crazy.

我想我并没有完全疯。

And it's very important.

这非常重要。

If you are going to do self-experimentation, or experimentation in small groups, which the Quantified Self community did quite well, and I think still does quite well, you should really make every effort to not fool yourself, which is hard, it's challenging at times, but read books like "Bad Science," read books like "How to Lie with Statistics," ensure that you are able to read studies well.

如果你打算进行自我实验，或者小组实验，量化自我社区做得很好，而且我认为现在仍然做得很好，你真的应该尽一切努力不要欺骗自己，这很难，有时很有挑战性，但是要阅读“糟糕的科学”之类的书，阅读“如何用统计说谎”之类的书，确保你能够很好地阅读研究。

You don't have to be the best in the world, but that you can, on some level, identify the strengths and weaknesses of studies.

你不必成为世界上最好的，但你可以在某种程度上确定学习的优势和劣势。

This doesn't take a long time.

这并不需要很长时间。

Certainly our friend Peter Attia, Dr. Peter Attia, has Studying Studies, which is a multiple-part blog series dedicated to this.

当然，我们的朋友彼得·阿蒂亚（Peter Attia），彼得·阿蒂亚博士（Dr. Peter Attia）有《学习研究》（Studying Studies），这是一个致力于此的多部分博客系列。

There are other ways to approach it.

还有其他方法可以实现这一点。

I took one of his podcasts, republished it on The Tim Ferriss Show, because it talked about how to examine studies, what powering refers to, things like this.

我录了他的一个播客，在蒂姆·费里斯秀上重新发布，因为它谈到了如何检查研究，权力指的是什么，诸如此类的事情。

In the span of one or two weeks, you could really become literate with the building blocks of scientific literacy with respect to reading studies.

在一两周的时间里，你可以真正掌握阅读研究方面的科学素养的基础。

And that gives you such an enormous life advantage.

这给你带来了巨大的生活优势。

It's hard to overstate.

很难夸大其词。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I agree.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，我同意。

And I also think that there are a lot of things that just simply will not ever be explored in a randomized control trial.

我还认为，有很多事情根本无法在随机对照试验中进行探索。

One of the things that Peter and I have talked about before is — he texts me, What are your thoughts on BPC 157?

Peter 和我之前讨论过的一件事是——他给我发短信，你对 BPC 157 有什么看法？

This is a gastric peptide that's now been synthesized so people will inject it into a tissue that they're trying to heal or improve.

这是一种现已合成的胃肽，因此人们会将其注射到他们试图治愈或改善的组织中。

Lots and lots of anecdata on BPC 157.

BPC 157 上有很多很多轶事。

Making injuries heal faster, etc. Again, anecdata.

使伤口愈合得更快等等。再说一遍，轶事。

I've used it.

我用过。

I took an injection of it yesterday.

我昨天注射了它。

In fact, Peter basically is not a believer because there's a lack of published data on this, which is perfectly fine, or I should say he's skeptical.

事实上，彼得基本上不是信徒，因为缺乏这方面的公开数据，这完全没问题，或者我应该说他持怀疑态度。

And so there's always that possibility of a placebo effect.

所以安慰剂效应的可能性总是存在的。

But I don't think there will ever be a really nice controlled trial on BPC 157 because the financial incentives aren't there.

但我认为 BPC 157 不会有真正好的对照试验，因为不存在经济激励。

And no smart graduate student is going to go do a thesis on this.

没有一个聪明的研究生会去写这方面的论文。

So that's the reality.

这就是现实。

I mean, maybe one will do it now that we're having this conversation, but the payout isn't there.

我的意思是，也许有人会在我们正在进行这次对话时这样做，但回报并不存在。

Tim Ferriss: And that last one you mentioned is one that people miss a lot.

蒂姆·费里斯：你提到的最后一个是人们非常怀念的一个。

People doing these studies are people with careers, who are planning their careers, and so they choose what they're going to invest time in very carefully.

从事这些研究的人都是有职业生涯的人，他们正在规划自己的职业生涯，因此他们会非常谨慎地选择要投入时间的领域。

So that's another limiter on what will end up in an RCT or not, right?

所以这是随机对照试验最终结果的另一个限制因素，对吗？

So I think that's good for people to hear.

所以我认为这对人们来说是件好事。

And as you get more involved with science, and in my case, through a Saisei Foundation funding a lot of early stage science, you realize how expensive it is and how long it takes.

当你更多地参与科学时，就我而言，通过 Saisei 基金会资助大量早期科学，你会意识到它是多么昂贵和需要多长时间。

It is a long-term investment.

这是一项长期投资。

And if you are looking to make behavioral changes or modify aspects of yourself, cognitive, physical, psychoemotional, or otherwise identifying interventions, options that seem to have some plausible upside, like there is a mechanism that might make sense in humans.

如果你想改变行为或改变自己的认知、身体、心理情感或其他方面的干预措施，那么这些选择似乎有一些看似合理的好处，比如有一种机制可能对人类有意义。

If you feel fairly certain there's very limited downside, which should include talking to people who are presenting their results as anecdata, then maybe you consider using X if you can cap your downside.

如果您相当确定负面影响非常有限，其中应该包括与以轶事形式呈现结果的人交谈，那么如果您可以限制负面影响，也许您可​​以考虑使用 X。

And I recall, for instance, looking at trans-resveratrol specifically not for longevity, but potentially increasing endurance for our body.

例如，我记得，研究反式白藜芦醇并不是为了长寿，而是为了潜在地增加我们身体的耐力。

And I ended up testing it.

我最终测试了它。

And there's a funny story associated with that.

与此相关的还有一个有趣的故事。

Didn't quite work out as planned, and I don't use it any longer.

没有完全按计划进行，我不再使用它了。

But what I experienced prior to actually finding this on forums was joint pain, elbow pain.

但在论坛上真正找到这个之前，我经历的是关节疼痛、肘部疼痛。

The one most consistent side effect was what felt like tendinosis in the elbows.

一种最一致的副作用是感觉肘部肌腱变性。

And then I went online and I'd already done this, but I hadn't come across.

然后我上网，我已经做到了这一点，但我没有遇到。

I think it was the 500 group.

我认为是500人组。

People had been using 500 milligrams of trans-resveratrol daily for long periods of time.

人们长期每天使用 500 毫克反式白藜芦醇。

And one of the most common reported side effects is joint pain.

最常见的副作用之一是关节疼痛。

And I was like, okay, I'm not willing to make that trade-off.

我当时想，好吧，我不愿意做出这样的权衡。

Andrew Huberman: Makes sense to me.

安德鲁·休伯曼：对我来说很有意义。

Tim Ferriss: Yeah.

蒂姆·费里斯：是的。

Andrew Huberman: I think it would be fun if ever you were willing that we could do a hybrid podcast on supplement fails.

Andrew Huberman：我认为如果你愿意我们可以做一个关于补充失败的混合播客，那会很有趣。

Tim Ferriss : Andrew Huberman : Tim Ferriss: I have some spectacular failures.

蒂姆·费里斯：安德鲁·胡伯曼：蒂姆·费里斯：我有一些惊人的失败。

Andrew Huberman: As do I.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我也是。

And I'm thinking about a few of them.

我正在考虑其中的一些。

I mean, some that were really took me off course.

我的意思是，有些确实让我偏离了轨道。

Like, there's one supplement called Bulbine natalensis.

比如，有一种补充剂叫做 Bulbine natalensis。

This is another one of these shrubs.

这是其中的另一种灌木。

Tim Ferriss: Sounds like an infection.

蒂姆·费里斯：听起来像是感染。

Andrew Huberman: I mean, this thing will really spike your testosterone and free testosterone.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：我的意思是，这东西真的会增加你的睾酮和游离睾酮。

I'm talking back acne, like huge strength gains, aggression.

我说的是痤疮，比如力量的巨大增长、攻击性。

Tim Ferriss : It's really wild.

蒂姆·费里斯：这真的很疯狂。

And then after about seven to 10 days, it all crashes and you go below baseline.

然后大约七到十天后，一切都会崩溃，你的成绩会低于基线。

Tim Ferriss: Oh sounds terrible.

蒂姆·费里斯：哦，听起来很糟糕。

Andrew Huberman: Even testicular pain.

Andrew Huberman：甚至睾丸疼痛。

So it was unclear.

所以就不清楚了。

So if you're a smart person, you halt use, right.

所以如果你是个聪明人，你就会停止使用，对吧。

So I can understand why people are skeptical of certain things, and then, of course, there are supplements that I'm a big fan of and that you're a big fan of.

所以我可以理解为什么人们对某些事情持怀疑态度，当然，还有一些我和你都非常喜欢的补充剂。

We talked about those things elsewhere, but it might be fun to do a supplement fails podcast, if ever you were willing.

我们在其他地方讨论过这些事情，但如果你愿意的话，做一个失败播客的补充可能会很有趣。

Tim Ferriss: I could do just experimental fails, N of 1 experimental fails, which include things that people might not think about, for instance, "4-Hour Body" had quite a bit of real estate dedicated to looking at things like PRP.

Tim Ferriss：我可以只做实验失败，N of 1 实验失败，其中包括人们可能没有想到的事情，例如，“4 小时身体”有相当多的空间专门用于研究 PRP 之类的东西。

So platelet-rich plasma.

所以富含血小板的血浆。

I think there's a role for it.

我认为它有其作用。

It's not useful for everything, but for certain types of injury or repair, I think it's very interesting.

它并不是对所有事情都有用，但是对于某些类型的伤害或修复，我认为它非常有趣。

But every time you get injected, this is where you have to be careful, because there are very few free lunches out there.

但每次注射时，你都必须小心，因为免费的午餐很少。

There's usually some type of feedback loop.

通常存在某种类型的反馈循环。

Your system is very smart at autoregulating things.

你的系统在自动调节方面非常聪明。

This is, outside of that, a consideration that I hadn't made, which is every time you have an injection, there's a chance of an infection, particularly if the site, in my case was the elbow, and the injection was made for the PRP, not quite where it should have been, slightly to the rear of the elbow, where the skin is very thick.

除此之外，这是我没有考虑到的一个因素，即每次注射时，都有感染的机会，特别是如果注射部位（就我而言）是肘部，而注射是针对 PRP 进行的，而不是在应有的位置，稍微靠近肘部后部，那里的皮肤非常厚。

And so it pushed staph bacteria from a mid layer of the skin into the joint capsule.

因此它将葡萄球菌从皮肤中层推入关节囊。

Andrew Huberman: Not good.

安德鲁·休伯曼：不好。

Tim Ferriss: And that really could have ended very poorly.

蒂姆·费里斯：这确实可能会导致非常糟糕的结局。

I ended up having to go to the ER and get it all removed and so on, but that could have ended up in a much more severe situation.

我最终不得不去急诊室并将其全部移除等等，但这可能会导致更严重的情况。

Tim Ferriss : So you do have to be careful with this stuff.

蒂姆·费里斯：所以你必须小心这些东西。

I've become a little more conservative with some what I do, including injections.

我对我所做的一些事情变得更加保守，包括注射。

I'm like, all right, let me think twice about the injections.

我想，好吧，让我三思一下注射的事情。

If I'm going to swallow something, let me make sure I'm really looking at the implications for the liver.

如果我要吞下一些东西，请确保我真正考虑了对肝脏的影响。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, smart, very smart.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，聪明，非常聪明。

I'm curious about some of the things that you talked about in "The 4-Hour Body" and that you've mentioned today.

我对你在“四小时身体”中谈到的以及你今天提到的一些事情很好奇。

Things like accelerometers, continuous glucose monitors, deliberate cold exposure.

诸如加速度计、连续血糖监测仪、故意的冷暴露之类的东西。

How many of those things are you still doing on a regular basis and how many do you use a couple times a week or a couple times a month, or go through phases of using and not using?

其中有多少事情是您仍然定期做的，有多少是您每周使用几次或每月几次，或者经历使用和不使用的阶段？

Tim Ferriss: Cold exposure I use as consistently as is practical, so if I'm traveling, it's a little harder.

Tim Ferriss：我会尽可能地持续使用冷曝光，所以如果我在旅​​行，那就有点困难了。

But we're in L.A.

但我们在洛杉矶

right now.

现在。

One of the first things I did was find a few options for contrast therapy.

我做的第一件事就是找到一些对比治疗的选择。

One of the first things I did, and by contrast, I do not mean infrared sauna and cold plunge.

我做的第一件事之一，相比之下，我并不是指红外线桑拿和冷水浴。

I'd much rather have hot and cold water, just in terms of sort of speed of heating.

我更喜欢热水和冷水，只是就加热速度而言。

Andrew Huberman: The Japanese approach.

Andrew Huberman：日本的做法。

Tim Ferriss: Right, for just speed of vasodilation, particularly for injury recovery.

蒂姆·费里斯：是的，只是为了血管舒张的速度，特别是对于伤病的恢复。

I think it's incredibly helpful.

我认为这非常有帮助。

For mood regulation, certainly that's the case.

对于情绪调节来说，当然是这样的。

And cold water for mood regulation or the treatment of, say, depression, or as a preemptive intervention to avoid or mitigate depression, is old, used to be prescribed for melancholy, and people like the van Goghs of the world would be prescribed cold baths.

冷水用于调节情绪或治疗抑郁症，或者作为避免或减轻抑郁症的预防性干预措施，已经很古老了，过去常被用来治疗忧郁症，像世界上的梵高这样的人会被开冷水浴。

So that was something I was like, well, let's take a look at some of the old history, read about that, and then look into PubMed and so on to see what might be supported.

所以我就想，好吧，让我们看一下一些古老的历史，阅读相关内容，然后研究 PubMed 等，看看哪些内容可能得到支持。

So the cold I'm still using, I've become increasingly interested.

所以我现在还在用的感冒，越来越感兴趣了。

This was not in "The 4-Hour Body," but whole body hyperthermia, often excluding the head, for depression, which I know there's some research at--

这不是“四小时身体”中的内容，而是针对抑郁症的全身热疗，通常不包括头部，我知道有一些研究——

Andrew Huberman: UCSF right now.

安德鲁·休伯曼：现在是加州大学旧金山分校。

Yeah, really interesting studies.

是的，非常有趣的研究。

Too early to report.

报告还太早。

I'm not involved in these, but I think these are really important studies because for all the people saying, oh, well, it's ice bath stuff, metabolism this, metabolism that, one thing that's very clear is long-lasting, very significant increase in the catecholamines: dopamine, epinephrine, norepinephrine.

我没有参与这些，但我认为这些是非常重要的研究，因为对于所有人来说，哦，好吧，这是冰浴的东西，新陈代谢这个，新陈代谢那个，非常清楚的一件事是儿茶酚胺的持久、非常显着的增加：多巴胺、肾上腺素、去甲肾上腺素。

Not a replacement, perhaps, for antidepressant medication.

也许不能替代抗抑郁药物。

But as you said, to move the needle toward antidepressant states.

但正如你所说，将针向抗抑郁状态。

That's the cocktail — and heat as well.

这就是鸡尾酒——还有热量。

Tim Ferriss: Yeah.

蒂姆·费里斯：是的。

And the hyperthermia, especially the way it's formatted right now with some of the research is very early stages, there's going to be less adherence, it's not as readily available as, say, cold shower or cold bath.

热疗，尤其是目前一些研究的形式还处于非常早期的阶段，依从性会降低，它不像冷水淋浴或冷水浴那样容易获得。

So I do think about the practical implications of that.

所以我确实考虑了这一点的实际影响。

But right now it's very interesting.

但现在这很有趣。

Slow-carb diet, still use it all the time.

慢碳水化合物饮食，仍然一直使用。

It is not my default 24/7 as it used to be.

这不再是我以前默认的 24/7 模式了。

So maybe I'm just getting older and more self-indulgent, but if I find myself going off the rails a bit and I'm like, okay, I'm getting closer to muffin top here.

所以也许我只是变老了，更加自我放纵，但如果我发现自己有点偏离轨道，我会想，好吧，我已经离松饼顶越来越近了。

Let's stage an intervention.

让我们进行干预。

Then I will go immediately back to slow-carb diet, and within a matter of weeks, it's pretty easily corrected.

然后我会立即回到慢碳水化合物饮食，几周之内，它很容易纠正。

Andrew Huberman: Just a cue for people, I know that slow-carb diet achieved great prominence.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我知道慢碳水化合物饮食取得了巨大的成功，这只是给人们一个提示。

In fact, wasn't it featured on or mentioned in an episode of "Orange Is the New Black"?

事实上，它不是在《女子监狱》的一集中出现或提到过吗？

Tim Ferriss: I think it might have been.

蒂姆·费里斯：我想可能是这样。

It's made appearances on a handful of shows.

它出现在一些节目中。

Andrew Huberman: Great.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 太好了。

I realized that I've been referring to the slow-carb diet several times throughout this discussion.

我意识到我在整个讨论中多次提到了慢碳水化合物饮食。

So for those that aren't familiar with the slow-carb diet, I know they can go look up what that is so that we can keep them here for the rest of this discussion and not have to send them out and back just yet.

因此，对于那些不熟悉慢碳水化合物饮食的人，我知道他们可以去查一下那是什么，这样我们就可以将它们留在这里进行剩下的讨论，而不必将它们送出去送回来。

Could you give us just a brief top contour of what the slow-carb diet is?

您能给我们简单介绍一下什么是慢碳水化合物饮食吗？

Tim Ferriss: Sure.

蒂姆·费里斯：当然。

So the slow-carb diet is intended to be a simple, easy to adhere to diet for people who have perhaps failed other diets.

因此，慢碳水化合物饮食旨在成为一种简单、易于坚持的饮食方式，适合其他饮食方式可能失败的人。

That allows you to recompose your body, so improve muscle mass, decrease body fat percentage.

这可以让你重组你的身体，从而提高肌肉质量，降低体脂百分比。

And the rules are really simple, and that's part of what makes it work.

规则非常简单，这也是它发挥作用的部分原因。

It's not ideal for every sport in every circumstance, but broadly speaking, it works for a lot of people who've had trouble with dieting in the past.

它并不适合所有情况下的每项运动，但从广义上讲，它适用于许多过去因节食而遇到困难的人。

So rule number one, don't drink calories.

所以第一条规则是，不要喝卡路里饮料。

That's it.

就是这样。

Very simple.

很简单。

So black coffee, unsweetened tea, great, juice out, anything with calories out.

所以黑咖啡，不加糖的茶，很棒的果汁，任何不含卡路里的东西。

You could add a little bit of heavy cream to your coffee, let's say.

比方说，你可以在咖啡中添加一点浓奶油。

But that's also bending the rules in a way that I don't like.

但这也以我不喜欢的方式扭曲了规则。

So in the beginning, it's like, follow the rules so you can break them later.

所以一开始，就像是遵守规则，以便以后可以打破它们。

So in the beginning, let's just say you can't drink calories.

所以一开始我们就说你不能喝卡路里。

Number two, don't eat anything white.

第二，不要吃白色的东西。

Sounds pretty basic, right?

听起来很基本，对吧？

Just don't eat anything that is the color of white.

只是不要吃任何白色的东西。

Or that could be white.

或者那可能是白色的。

Basically, that means you're going to be avoiding starches and things that are similar to starches.

基本上，这意味着您将避免食用淀粉和与淀粉类似的东西。

Andrew Huberman: That includes things like oatmeal.

安德鲁·休伯曼：这包括燕麦片之类的东西。

Tim Ferriss: That includes things like oatmeal.

蒂姆·费里斯：这包括燕麦片之类的东西。

So, roughly speaking, just avoiding things that are white or that could be white will get you pretty far.

所以，粗略地说，只要避免白色或可能是白色的东西就会让你走得更远。

And yes, there are exceptions, like cauliflower.

是的，也有例外，比如花椰菜。

Fine, you can have cauliflower.

好吧，你可以吃花椰菜。

But again, don't get fancy, right?

但话又说回来，不要太花哨，对吧？

It's very easy to outsmart yourself when it comes to behavioral change.

在行为改变方面，很容易超越自己。

Keep it simple.

保持简单。

So for at least two weeks, forget about the exceptions.

因此，至少在两周内，忘记例外情况。

Right.

正确的。

Don't drink calories, don't eat anything white, and then eat 30 grams of protein within 30 minutes of waking up.

不要喝热量，不要吃任何白色的东西，然后在起床后30分钟内吃30克蛋白质。

Okay, we got that.

好的，我们明白了。

And then there are a few buckets you can choose from.

然后有几个桶可供选择。

Right.

正确的。

So you have vegetables, beans, and lentils and then some type of protein.

所以你有蔬菜、豆类和扁豆，然后还有某种蛋白质。

So you're going to come up with meals that you can follow without deviating for a period of one or two weeks.

所以你要制定出可以在一两周内不偏离的膳食。

Just come up with the same meals, and that's going to sound boring.

只做同样的饭菜，这听起来很无聊。

Yes.

是的。

But guess what?

但你猜怎么着？

You do it already.

你已经这么做了。

You just might not realize it.

你可能只是没有意识到这一点。

And the lentils and the beans specifically as a prereq, we can get into some of the reasons, but add a lot of fiber and also inhibit appetite.

而扁豆和豆类专门作为先决条件，我们可以深入了解一些原因，但添加大量纤维也会抑制食欲。

Right.

正确的。

So that's actually a very important component of these meals.

所以这实际上是这些膳食中非常重要的组成部分。

There may be a handful of other rules, but those are the basics.

可能还有一些其他规则，但这些是基本规则。

And then the redemption is take one day off per week and just go fucking crazy.

然后，救赎就是每周休息一天，然后疯狂起来。

That's cheat day.

那天就是作弊日。

There are some epic cheat days out there, some I've captured for myself, and anything goes.

那里有一些史诗般的作弊日，有些是我自己捕捉到的，一切都会发生。

When I say anything, I do mean anything.

当我说什么时，我确实意味着什么。

So if you want to consume multiple pizzas, pints of ice cream, whatever, indulge.

因此，如果您想吃多个披萨、几品脱冰淇淋等，那就放纵一下吧。

I left one out.

我漏掉了一个。

No fruit during the week.

这周没有水果。

So avoid fruit, avoid fructose, so agave, nectar, anything that is sort of hidden sugar, avoid all that.

所以避免吃水果，避免果糖，所以龙舌兰，花蜜，任何隐藏糖的东西，都要避免。

It's a no-added sweeteners, obviously, but avoid fruit and fructose.

显然，它是一种不添加甜味剂，但要避免水果和果糖。

And again, it's not going to kill you.

再说一遍，它不会杀了你。

Guess what?

你猜怎么着？

If you're from European ancestry, your ancestry did not have blueberries in the middle of winter, generally speaking.

如果您来自欧洲血统，那么一般来说，您的祖先在隆冬时节没有蓝莓。

Right?

正确的？

Tim Ferriss : So you'll be fine for a few weeks, and then there's that cheat day, and cheat day — anything goes.

蒂姆·费里斯：所以你会好几个星期，然后就是作弊日，作弊日 - 一切都会发生。

The amount of damage you can do on cheat day is pretty limited, and there are ways you can mitigate that.

你在作弊日所能造成的损害是相当有限的，并且有一些方法可以减轻这种损害。

There's a whole chapter called "Damage Control" in "The 4-Hour Body." But focusing just on that diet and having one day off where you know you can do anything means when you are controlling yourself for those six days of the week, you're not giving up your favorite foods forever.

《四小时身体》中有整整一章叫做“伤害控制”。但是，只专注于饮食并有一天休息，你知道自己可以做任何事情，这意味着当你在一周的这六天中控制自己时，你不会永远放弃你最喜欢的食物。

You can even keep a list of all the things you want to eat on cheat day, and then you have free license to eat on cheat day.

你甚至可以列出你在作弊日想吃的所有东西的清单，然后你就可以在作弊日免费吃东西。

And that provides you with a release valve so that you can build in the cheating as opposed to having it occur as a failure point.

这为你提供了一个释放阀，这样你就可以建立作弊行为，而不是将其作为故障点发生。

There are a handful of other things there.

还有一些其他的东西。

If you have domino foods in the house, for instance, if you eat a lot of almonds or mixed nuts, and you're just going to sit there compulsively eating them while you're sitting at your laptop, don't have what I call dominoed foods in the house, which are going to really create some portion control issues.

如果你家里有多米诺骨牌食物，例如，如果你吃了很多杏仁或混合坚果，而你只是坐在笔记本电脑前强迫性地吃它们，那么家里就不要有我所说的多米诺骨牌食物，这确实会造成一些份量控制问题。

But broadly speaking, don't drink calories, don't eat things that are white.

但总的来说，不要喝热量饮料，不要吃白色的东西。

Take from three categories and build your meals out.

从三个类别中挑选并制定您的膳食。

And those are the meals that you follow.

这些就是您遵循的膳食。

Do not eat fruit or fructose.

不要吃水果或果糖。

And then cheat one day a week.

然后一周有一天作弊。

And Saturday is a nice day for cheat day for most folks.

对于大多数人来说，星期六是作弊日的好日子。

And just to answer some questions that people are going to have, no, that doesn't mean 24 hours that you can spread out over two days, that will actually set you back.

只是为了回答人们可能会提出的一些问题，不，这并不意味着您可以将 24 小时分散到两天内，这实际上会让您倒退。

But the amount of fat that you can store in a handful of sittings over 24 hours, which legitimately is more like 12 to 18 hours, pretty limited.

但是，在 24 小时内（按理说应该是 12 到 18 小时），你几次坐着就能储存的脂肪量是相当有限的。

So that's slow-carb diet.

这就是慢碳水化合物饮食。

Andrew Huberman: Great.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 太好了。

Thank you for that.

谢谢你。

I also want to ask, is it okay to take the day after cheat day and fast, or do one meal that day?

我还想问一下，作弊日后的第二天可以禁食吗，或者当天只吃一顿饭可以吗？

When I followed the slow-carb diet, I benefited from it tremendously.

当我遵循慢碳水化合物饮食时，我从中受益匪浅。

Lost fat, gained muscle, tons of energy.

减掉了脂肪，增加了肌肉，获得了大量的能量。

Sleeping great, required less caffeine, all sorts of wonderful things.

睡得很好，需要更少的咖啡因，各种美妙的东西。

Stable blood sugar.

血糖稳定。

I felt so, so good.

我感觉非常非常好。

Really enjoyed the cheat days.

真的很享受作弊的日子。

I really, really enjoyed the cheat days.

我真的非常享受作弊的日子。

So much fun.

太有趣了。

At some point, there's some gastric distress that comes from not regulating intake, which led me to not want to eat the next day.

在某些时候，由于不控制摄入量而导致胃部不适，这导致我第二天不想吃东西。

So I tended to do the cheat days on Sunday in my case.

所以就我而言，我倾向于在周日进行作弊日。

And then I would fast most of Monday, just water, black coffee, tea, and then I might have a small meal in the evening.

然后我会在周一的大部分时间里禁食，只喝水、黑咖啡、茶，然后晚上我可能会吃一顿小餐。

And then by Tuesday, I was back on the slow-carb diet.

然后到了周二，我又恢复了慢碳水化合物饮食。

Does that seem like sort of a detrimental deviation from the plan?

这看起来是不是有点偏离计划？

Tim Ferriss: I think that if that is what works for you, then that is what works for you.

蒂姆·费里斯：我认为如果这对你有用，那就对你有用。

So this slow-carb diet template for me is a starting point.

所以这个慢碳水化合物饮食模板对我来说是一个起点。

And generally I'll say, I think this is from Picasso, right?

一般来说，我会说，我认为这是毕加索的作品，对吗？

It's like, "learn the rules as an amateur so you can break them as a professional." But I recommend most people kind of stick with the format for a handful of weeks and measure the results.

就像，“作为业余爱好者学习规则，这样你就可以作为专业人士打破它们。”但我建议大多数人坚持这种格式几周并衡量结果。

So there are guidelines for how to measure the scale is a bit of a blunt instrument, so there are other ways, but if you're extremely overweight, you can just use the scale.

所以有关于如何测量的指南 体重秤是一个有点生硬的仪器，所以还有其他方法，但如果你极度超重，你可以只使用体重秤。

And fasting, I think is fine.

禁食，我认为很好。

Or just ratcheting back your caloric consumption significantly.

或者只是显着减少热量消耗。

And what happens over time for most people also is for the first, say, four weeks, on cheat day, you're going to go completely insane.

对于大多数人来说，随着时间的推移，在最初的四个星期内，在作弊日，你会完全发疯。

And I remember I was doing something much stricter called the cyclical ketogenic diet, which is a whole separate thing.

我记得我正在做一些更严格的事情，称为周期性生酮饮食，这是一个完全独立的事情。

It's much more limiting in terms of what you can eat.

就你可以吃的东西而言，它的限制要大得多。

But I was training for, ultimately, the nationals in Chinese kickboxing.

但我最终是为中国跆拳道国家队进行训练。

This was happening in '99.

这是99年发生的事。

So I was training super hard.

所以我训练非常刻苦。

I was following a cyclical ketogenic diet, which meant I could eat very few things.

我遵循周期性生酮饮食，这意味着我只能吃很少的东西。

But I did have this one cheat day, and I would do a glycogen depletion workout beforehand, which is one of the things you can do to limit the damage on cheat day, do a glycogen depletion workout beforehand.

但我确实有一个作弊日，我会事先进行糖原消耗锻炼，这是你可以做的事情之一，以限制作弊日的伤害，提前进行糖原消耗锻炼。

And then I would just go crazy.

然后我就会发疯。

I mean, I would drive to like Krispy Kreme, buy 12 donuts, and they would be gone by the time I got home.

我的意思是，我会开车去 Krispy Kreme 店买 12 个甜甜圈，等我到家的时候它们就已经不见了。

And it wasn't an hour away, it was like a 10-minute drive.

而且距离也不是一个小时，也就10分钟车程。

Donuts would be gone, right?

甜甜圈就会消失，对吧？

I would go to Safeway and I would buy a bag of those fun-sized Snickers.

我会去西夫韦买一袋有趣的士力架。

And that would be just a tiny portion of my calories.

这只是我卡路里的一小部分。

Andrew Huberman: Sweet stuff for you.

安德鲁·休伯曼：给你带来甜蜜的东西。

Tim Ferriss: A lot of sweet stuff.

蒂姆·费里斯：很多甜食。

I also did the savory stuff.

我还做了一些咸味的东西。

I mean, I had my favorites.

我的意思是，我有我的最爱。

Pizza.

比萨。

Andrew Huberman: Nothing was safe.

安德鲁·休伯曼：没有什么是安全的。

Tim Ferriss: Nothing was safe.

蒂姆·费里斯：没有什么是安全的。

My paws got into everything.

我的爪子伸进了一切。

And then over time, because the next day you're going to feel like you got hit by a diabetic dump truck, you start ratcheting back and you're like, okay, maybe I don't need to do that.

然后随着时间的推移，因为第二天你会感觉自己被糖尿病自卸卡车撞到了，你开始逐渐恢复，你会想，好吧，也许我不需要这样做。

Maybe cheat day will just be two meals.

也许作弊日只是两顿饭。

Or maybe cheat day will just be like the pastries in the morning with the coffee, and you start to regulate a bit, generally.

或者也许作弊日就像早上的糕点和咖啡一样，一般来说，你开始进行一些调节。

You don't have to, but over time you generally will.

您不必这样做，但随着时间的推移，您通常会这样做。

And I think after you've followed it to the T, just follow the commandments for, say, four to eight weeks, then you can certainly deviate.

我认为，当你完全遵循戒律后，只需遵循戒律四到八周，那么你当然可以偏离。

And I'm not saying if you're not hungry, don't eat.

我并不是说如果你不饿就不要吃东西。

However, in many cases, people have acclimated to not eating in the morning, and then they end up overeating later in the day.

然而，在许多情况下，人们已经习惯了早上不吃东西，然后他们在当天晚些时候就会暴饮暴食。

If you have that habit, right.

如果你有这个习惯，那就对了。

If you're consuming 50% of your calories or more at dinner and you want to lose body fat, I would say get some cottage cheese or something that will give you 30 grams easily in the morning.

如果你在晚餐时消耗了 50% 或更多的卡路里，并且你想减掉体内脂肪，我会建议你吃一些干酪或其他能让你在早上轻松减掉 30 克的东西。

Worst case scenario, use a protein of some type.

最坏的情况是使用某种类型的蛋白质。

Just don't make it hypercaloric.

只是不要让它热量过高。

Andrew Huberman: Powdered protein.

安德鲁·休伯曼：蛋白质粉。

Tim Ferriss: Like, could be powdered whey protein.

蒂姆·费里斯：比如，可能是乳清蛋白粉。

Whole food is going to do a lot more.

全食的作用还有很多。

Andrew Huberman: And no calorie counting, correct.

Andrew Huberman：并且没有计算卡路里，正确的。

Tim Ferriss: No calorie counting.

蒂姆·费里斯：不计算卡路里。

It tends to be self-limiting when you're eating this much fiber and this much protein, it tends to be very self-limiting what you'll want to consume and what you can consume.

当你吃这么多纤维和这么多蛋白质时，它往往是自我限制的，它往往会非常自我限制你想要消耗的东西和你可以消耗的东西。

Andrew Huberman: Once again, I had great experiences with slow-carb diet and I'm going to go back on  it.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我再次在慢碳水化合物饮食方面获得了很好的经验，我会继续这样做。

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, and nobody needs to buy anything to figure it out.

蒂姆·费里斯：是的，没有人需要购买任何东西才能弄清楚这一点。

If you just search on tim.blog, "Slow-Carb diet," you'll get everything that you need to get started, no purchase necessary.

如果您只需在 tim.blog 上搜索“慢碳水化合物饮食”，您就会获得开始所需的一切，无需购买。

Andrew Huberman: Well, it works very well, I'll say that.

Andrew Huberman：嗯，我会这么说，效果非常好。

And it's very straightforward to follow.

而且非常容易遵循。

And it does include the notorious cheat day.

它确实包括臭名昭著的作弊日。

Infamous cheat day.

臭名昭著的作弊日。

And it can be done on a very reasonable budget.

而且可以在非常合理的预算下完成。

And so if people want to learn more about that, they should go to Tim's blog on 4-Hour Body and Slow-Carb diet.

因此，如果人们想了解更多相关信息，他们应该访问蒂姆关于 4 小时健身和慢碳水化合物饮食的博客。

We'll provide a link, but I think it's worth highlighting again just how effective that is.

我们将提供一个链接，但我认为值得再次强调它的有效性。

As you pointed out, thousands and thousands of people using it to great success, some of whom were quite obese and yeah, any updates on those folks?

正如您所指出的，成千上万的人使用它取得了巨大的成功，其中一些人非常肥胖，是的，这些人有什么最新消息吗？

Are they still keeping the weight off?

他们还在减肥吗？

Tim Ferriss: I would like to do a follow-up.

蒂姆·费里斯：我想做一个后续行动。

I think with diets in general, there's a lot of reversion to the mean, regression to the mean.

我认为一般来说，饮食中存在很多回归均值、回归均值的情况。

So I would expect that some have kept it off and some have not.

所以我预计有些人会保留它，有些则不会。

That would be true of, I think, every possible diet, especially for people who are overcoming behavioral inertia of having gained 100s of pounds.

我认为，每一种可能的饮食方式都是如此，特别是对于那些正在克服体重增加数百磅的行为惯性的人。

But I'd like to do some follow up.

但我想做一些后续工作。

What was fun about the post I put together called "How to lose 100 pounds on the Slow-Carb diet." We profiled say four or five people, but there were dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens.

我整理的这篇文章的有趣之处在于“如何通过慢碳水化合物饮食减掉 100 磅”。我们介绍了四五个人，但也有几十人。

And this was a very long time ago.

这是很久以前的事了。

So I would say that a long-term follow up would be super interesting.

所以我想说，长期的跟进将会非常有趣。

And we did at one point track several thousand people through a platform.

我们曾一度通过一个平台追踪了数千人。

At the time, I think it was coach.me, as they followed the Slow-Carb diet for the first four to 12 weeks.

当时，我认为是 coach.me，因为他们在前 4 到 12 周内遵循慢碳水化合物饮食。

And that was fascinating because I want the data and I'm happy to be proven incorrect with any of my assumptions.

这很有趣，因为我想要这些数据，并且很高兴我的任何假设被证明是错误的。

I mean, I don't view that as a failure.

我的意思是，我不认为这是失败。

I view that as a huge net gain.

我认为这是一个巨大的净收益。

And it has a very high adherence rate.

而且它的坚持率非常高。

So I pay attention to not just is something effective, does it get you the outcome you want, not only is it efficient from a time and resource perspective, but how high is the adherence rate?

所以我关注的不仅仅是某件事是否有效，它是否能给你带来你想要的结果，不仅从时间和资源的角度来看它是否有效，而且坚持率有多高？

If you take a random sampling of a thousand people from the U.S. across socioeconomic classes, etc., how many people, practically speaking, will be able to, or willing to follow this for say, an eight-week period of time or a four-week period of time.

如果你从美国不同社会经济阶层等的一千个人中随机抽样，实际上有多少人能够或愿意遵循这一点，比如说八周或四周的时间。

And I try to optimize for the widest adherence because I know the slow-carb diet people come on, they're like, but what about intermittent fasting?

我尝试优化以实现最广泛的坚持，因为我知道人们会选择慢碳水化合物饮食，但间歇性禁食呢？

What about this?

这又如何呢？

And what about endurance athletes?

那么耐力运动员呢？

I'm like, this is not for everybody in all cases; it just happens to be a good default diet with a high adherence rate.

我想，这并不适合所有情况下的所有人；它恰好是一种很好的默认饮食，并且坚持率很高。

And like you said, it's very inexpensive.

正如你所说，它非常便宜。

It can be followed very, very inexpensively.

遵循它的成本非常非常低。

Andrew Huberman: Sorry to interrupt you.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 抱歉打扰您。

One thing that I really like about it is that many variants on caloric restriction, which is because laws of thermodynamics definitely apply, we're not trying to say they don't, but one of the issues with a lot of things, including intermittent fasting, which I sort of do some variant of because I'm not really hungry to eat until about 11, I like to train in the morning if I can, etc. Is that they can sometimes prevent best performance in terms of especially resistance training, high-intensity resistance training.

我真正喜欢的一件事是热量限制的许多变体，这是因为热力学定律肯定适用，我们并不是想说它们不适用，但很多事情的问题之一，包括间歇性禁食，我做了一些变体，因为我直到11点左右才真正饿着吃东西，如果可以的话，我喜欢在早上训练，等等。它们有时会阻碍在特别是阻力训练、高强度阻力训练方面的最佳表现。

So very low carb diets, I've tried them.

所以非常低碳水化合物的饮食，我已经尝试过了。

Even if you're paying attention to other ways to restock, glycogen performance drops off.

即使您注意其他补充库存的方法，糖原的性能也会下降。

Whereas with slow-carb diet I feel like I can think, I can work, I can exercise, I can sleep, everything just works well.

而采用慢碳水化合物饮食时，我觉得我可以思考，我可以工作，我可以锻炼，我可以睡觉，一切都运转良好。

But there's one thing in it that I wanted to raise that when I heard this I thought there's no way this is true, which was making sure that you get 30 or so grams of protein within 30 minutes of waking.

但其中我想提出一件事，当我听到这个消息时，我认为这不可能是真的，那就是确保你在醒来后 30 分钟内摄入 30 克左右的蛋白质。

And I thought how can that be?

我想那怎么可能呢？

How can adding protein early in the day actually make a difference?

早上补充蛋白质如何真正发挥作用？

And it really did work.

它确实有效。

I still track my numbers.

我仍然跟踪我的号码。

So in terms of dropping body fat percentage, increasing muscle, it really does work.

所以对于降低体脂率、增加肌肉来说，它确实有效。

Now whether or not that's simply because it's offsetting food intake that I would have, food that I would have taken in later in the day, I don't know.

现在，这是否仅仅是因为它抵消了我本应摄入的食物，即我当天晚些时候摄入的食物，我不知道。

I'm not going to make myself my own control experiment to the point that I drive myself crazy.

我不会让自己成为自己的对照实验，以至于让自己发疯。

But it really does work quite well to get past sticking points, to just get that 30 grams of protein early.

但尽早摄入 30 克蛋白质对于克服症结确实非常有效。

So sort of violate the time-restricted feeding component deliberately with some protein in the morning, then still train and do all the other things and carry on as usual.

因此，在早上故意违反时间限制的喂养部分，摄入一些蛋白质，然后仍然训练并做所有其他事情并照常进行。

And it seems so peculiar, like eating more and losing body fat, but it works.

而且这看起来很奇特，就像吃得更多、减少体内脂肪一样，但它确实有效。

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, it's counterintuitive and a lot of approaches can work for a lot of different people, right?

蒂姆·费里斯：是的，这是违反直觉的，很多方法可以适用于很多不同的人，对吧？

To state the obvious, but this particular aspect of this slow-carb diet is helpful for, let's just say the majority of the people in that thousand-person sample.

显而易见的是，这种慢碳水化合物饮食的这一特殊方面是有帮助的，我们只说这千人样本中的大多数人。

I was talking about the hypothetical poll from different parts of, say, the U.S. or anywhere, because it seems to help with a few things.

我谈论的是来自美国或任何地方等不同地区的假设民意调查，因为它似乎对一些事情有所帮助。

First, there's just the thermic effect of food, and for protein, there's a greater thermic effect.

首先，只有食物的热效应，而对于蛋白质来说，热效应更大。

You also have, and I think there's decent...

你也有，而且我认为还有不错的...

At the time, there was decent literature to support this, so I don't know if it's changed, that the protein intake along those lines has an appetite-suppressing effect.

当时有相当多的文献支持这一点，所以我不知道它是否改变了，即蛋白质摄入量具有抑制食欲的作用。

So the net daily calories consumed tends to be less when someone has a higher protein meal earlier in the day.

因此，当某人在一天早些时候摄入较高蛋白质的膳食时，每日消耗的净卡路里往往会较少。

And last but not least, I will say one of the risks, and there are many people who execute well on this, but you have to be very meticulous, which is true of the ketogenic diet as well.

最后但并非最不重要的一点是，我要说的是风险之一，有很多人在这方面执行得很好，但你必须非常小心，生酮饮食也是如此。

You can get yourself into a lot of trouble if you do it 60% right or 70% right, you can get yourself in there.

如果你做对了 60% 或 70%，你就会陷入很多麻烦，你就会陷入困境。

Andrew Huberman: Massive psoriasis.

安德鲁·休伯曼：大面积牛皮癣。

I mean, my scalp sloughing off when I'm in ketosis and going like, what the hell is going on here?

我的意思是，当我处于酮症状态时，我的头皮会脱落，然后我会想，这里到底发生了什么？

Going back on some complex carbohydrates and it going away.

重新摄入一些复杂的碳水化合物，它就会消失。

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, exactly.

蒂姆·费里斯：是的，完全正确。

Andrew Huberman: I don't need a randomized control trial to know I simply don't want to run that experiment against my scalp.

Andrew Huberman：我不需要随机对照试验就知道我只是不想在我的头皮上进行该实验。

Tim Ferriss: Yeah.

蒂姆·费里斯：是的。

So in the case of, say, time-restricted feeding, some people who do intermittent fasting lose a lot of muscle mass.

因此，在限时进食的情况下，一些间歇性禁食的人会损失大量肌肉。

And there are multiple reasons for this.

这有多种原因。

I think people should make use of relatively widely available tools like DEXA and so on, to ensure that your composition is actually moving the way you think it's moving.

我认为人们应该利用相对广泛使用的工具，例如 DEXA 等，以确保您的作品实际上按照您认为的方式移动。

Make sure you standardize your hydration for that as well as time of day.

确保您在当天以及一天中的某个时间标准化您的饮水量。

Just pro tip.

只是专业提示。

That's true for blood tests as well, but it seems to get net-net better effects than trying to teach people how to fast effectively, which you can do, and we can talk about fasting.

血液测试也是如此，但它似乎比试图教人们如何有效地禁食效果更好，你可以这样做，我们可以谈论禁食。

That's something that was not included in "The 4-Hour Body" that were I to rewrite it today, I would include a section, and there was a bit in "Tools of Titans" to address that on more extended fasts.

这是“四小时身体”中没有包含的内容，如果我今天重写它，我会包含一个部分，“泰坦的工具”中有一些内容可以解决更多延长禁食的问题。

Let's just call it three-to-seven-day fasts.

我们姑且称之为三到七天的禁食吧。

So that's an area that's of great interest to me, as is ketosis and metabolic psychiatry, a la Chris Palmer, who we both know.

所以这是我非常感兴趣的领域，就像我们都认识的克里斯·帕尔默（Chris Palmer）的酮症和代谢精神病学一样。

Andrew Huberman: Incredible.

安德鲁·休伯曼：难以置信。

I mean, what the awakening that he's created through his book and going on your podcast, my podcast and others, and letting people be aware that changes in diet can impact mental health.

我的意思是，他通过他的书以及在你的播客、我的播客和其他播客上创造的觉醒，让人们意识到饮食的改变会影响心理健康。

So I think in two, three years, it's going to be a duh.

所以我认为两三年后，这将是一个废话。

And we're not just talking about the difference between slamming back horrible foods, horrible-for-us foods, versus eating really clean.

我们谈论的不仅仅是抵制可怕的食物、对我们来说可怕的食物与真正干净的饮食之间的区别。

I mean, really specific diet protocols to treat mental health.

我的意思是，治疗心理健康的非常具体的饮食方案。

Tim Ferriss: Incredible.

蒂姆·费里斯：难以置信。

Yeah, super exciting.

是啊，超级刺激。

So that's one of the things that I'm paying a lot of attention to right now.

所以这是我现在非常关注的事情之一。

There are a handful in that realm within, just, say, the interplay of mind and body, since the Cartesian duality and separation of those two makes no sense from a biological standpoint.

在这个领域中，有少数人，比如说，心灵和身体的相互作用，因为笛卡尔的二元性和这两者的分离从生物学的角度来看是没有意义的。

So that's something that certainly captured my attention.

所以这确实引起了我的注意。

I paid a lot of attention to even as far back as early 2000s for mental health and just cognitive performance.

早在 2000 年代初，我就非常关注心理健康和认知表现。

Andrew Huberman: Thanks for revisiting some of "The 4-Hour Body" and slow-carb diet and elaborating on some of the process that went into that.

Andrew Huberman：感谢您重新审视“4 小时健身”和慢碳水化合物饮食的一些内容，并详细阐述了其中的一些过程。

And I think creators of all kinds, thinkers of all kinds, and people who are interested in the contents of "The 4-Hour Body" are going to be very grateful for that information.

我认为各种创作者、各种思想家以及对“四小时身体”内容感兴趣的人都会对这些信息非常感激。

I certainly am fascinated by your process.

我当然对你的过程很着迷。

One of the things that you mentioned along the lines of process was the power of places and where one happens to live.

您在流程中提到的一件事是地方和人们碰巧居住的地方的力量。

I think there's an essay by Paul Graham that talks about this.

我认为保罗·格雷厄姆（Paul Graham）有一篇文章谈到了这一点。

It's a little outdated, and it talks about the messages that you, the tacit messages of being in certain cities.

它有点过时了，它谈论的是你的信息，在某些城市的默认信息。

I think it was like Boston, you're not smart enough.

我认为这就像波士顿一样，你不够聪明。

What was it?

那是什么？

It was New York, you're not powerful enough.

这是纽约，你还不够强大。

Tim Ferriss : And not you.

蒂姆·费里斯：但不是你。

I was just thinking, or you should be more powerful.

我只是在想，要不你应该更强大一些。

Is the message like the tacit message?

该消息是否类似于默认消息？

Los Angeles, what you're doing, people aren't paying enough attention to it?

洛杉矶，你在做什么，人们还没有给予足够的关注吗？

Something like that.

类似的事情。

Those tacit messages, these are stereotypes about cities.

那些心照不宣的信息，这些都是关于城市的刻板印象。

Certainly cities change.

当然，城市会发生变化。

The role of places is an interesting one.

地点的作用很有趣。

You mentioned small gathering, Kevin Kelly's house, Quantified Self.

你提到了小型聚会、凯文凯利的房子、量化自我。

And I think for people who don't know people like that.

我认为对于那些不认识这样的人的人来说。

Right.

正确的。

Maybe we could get your thoughts on how would one think about where to live and maybe even curating their own gatherings, useful gatherings, because I have to imagine it's not that you guys sat back and you're like, I'm Tim Ferriss.

也许我们可以了解你们的想法，人们会如何考虑住在哪里，甚至可能策划自己的聚会，有用的聚会，因为我必须想象你们并不是袖手旁观，然后说，我是蒂姆·费里斯。

And he's like, I'm Kevin Kelly.

他说，我是凯文·凯利。

Let's have a gathering so we can talk about it in a few years on a podcast.

让我们聚会一下，以便几年后我们可以在播客上讨论这件事。

This stuff happens.

这种事情发生。

That word, you know, it's a dangerous word organically, when people who have common interests decide to get together and talk and listen and brainstorm.

你知道，当具有共同兴趣的人们决定聚在一起交谈、倾听和集思广益时，这个词自然是一个危险的词。

And I'm yet to do that with good people and not have something really incredible come out of it, not necessarily that day, but looking back five years later and just going, God, that was really worthwhile.

我还没有和好人一起做这件事，却没有得到真正令人难以置信的结果，不一定是那一天，但五年后回顾起来，天哪，那真的很值得。

Tim Ferriss: Totally, yeah.

蒂姆·费里斯：完全是的。

Few thoughts in no particular order, I would say.

我想说的是，没有什么想法，没有特定的顺序。

The first is my recommendations depend a lot on where you are in the arc of your career and life.

首先，我的建议很大程度上取决于您在职业和生活中所处的位置。

If you are in full, growth, hyperdrive mode and you are trying to build both yourself and your capabilities in a very concentrated way, where you're not necessarily focused on family, you maybe have fewer obligations, then if you're serious, I think many people should consider moving to an area of high density for a period of time.

如果你处于全面、成长、超驱动模式，并且你正在尝试以非常集中的方式建立自己和你的能力，你不一定专注于家庭，你可能有更少的义务，那么如果你是认真的，我认为很多人应该考虑搬到高密度的地区一段时间。

It could be three months, it could be six months, could be longer.

可能是三个月，可能是六个月，甚至可能更长。

But putting yourself in a New York or an L.A.

但是把自己放在纽约或洛杉矶。

or a San Francisco or Chicago, or as new places develop...

或者旧金山或芝加哥，或者随着新地方的发展......

I'll give you one you might not expect, say, in Ottawa, Canada, where Shopify is based.

我会给你一个你可能意想不到的地方，比如 Shopify 总部所在的加拿大渥太华。

And the presence and growth of Shopify has spawned an entire ecosystem of startups.

Shopify 的存在和发展催生了整个初创企业生态系统。

So there may be options outside of the usual cast of characters.

因此，除了通常的角色之外，可能还有其他选择。

Pittsburgh and Duolingo, similar effect.

匹兹堡和Duolingo，效果类似。

So there are more options than people might recognize.

因此，选择比人们可能认识到的要多。

But taking a journey and placing yourself in a place where you can be in a very active pinball machine, where you may interact serendipitously with many different people from many different worlds, I think is hard to overstate the value of.

但是，踏上一段旅程，将自己置身于一个非常活跃的弹球机中，在那里你可以偶然地与来自不同世界的许多不同的人互动，我认为很难夸大其价值。

And my drive and my filtering function, let's just say, because when I first got to the Bay Area, nobody cared about me — I was nobody.

我的驾驶和我的过滤功能，这么说吧，因为当我第一次到达湾区时，没有人关心我——我什么都不是。

I was driving my mom's used minivan hand-me-down that had the seats stolen out of the back.

我开着我妈妈的二手小型货车，后排的座位被偷了。

Andrew Huberman: Were you in the South Bay ?

安德鲁·休伯曼：你在南湾吗？

Tim Ferriss: I was working in San Jose.

蒂姆·费里斯：我在圣何塞工作。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman: I mean, no disrespect to San Jose.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我的意思是，没有对圣何塞的不尊重。

I'm from the South Bay.

我来自南湾。

Tim Ferriss: Yeah.

蒂姆·费里斯：是的。

Andrew Huberman: But there's a bleakness to the South.

安德鲁·休伯曼：但是南方却一片黯淡。

Tim Ferriss: There is a little bit of bleakness.

蒂姆·费里斯：有一点黯淡。

And then I lived across the street in this tiny apartment.

然后我就住在街对面的这套小公寓里。

Lived across the street from the Jack in the Box in Mountain View.

住在山景城“Jack in the Box”街对面。

So it's not like I was strolling onto the big stage and just blowing people away.

所以我并不是漫步在大舞台上让人们惊叹不已。

Andrew Huberman: I grew up right near Mountain View.

Andrew Huberman：我在山景城附近长大。

I'm very familiar.

我很熟悉。

I probably skated the curbs at that Jack in the Box.

我可能在盒子里的杰克那里滑过路缘石。

Tim Ferriss: Probably did.

蒂姆·费里斯：可能是这样。

Andrew Huberman: Did you train at the Gold's Gym?

Andrew Huberman：你在 Gold's Gym 训练过吗？

Tim Ferriss: I did, actually.

蒂姆·费里斯：事实上，我做到了。

Andrew Huberman: Amazing.

安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。

That was a great gym.

那是一个很棒的健身房。

Tim Ferriss: That's a great gym.

蒂姆·费里斯：那是一个很棒的健身房。

Andrew Huberman: That was a great gym.

Andrew Huberman：那是一个很棒的健身房。

I don't think it's still.

我不认为它还在。

Tim Ferriss: I go there super late before my writing sessions, and it had the benefit of being open really late.

蒂姆·费里斯（Tim Ferriss）：我在写作课程之前很晚才去那里，它的好处是很晚才开放。

And wow, rang story.

哇，故事响起了。

I haven't thought about that in a long time.

我已经很久没有思考过这个问题了。

So the point is I also started where a lot of people are starting, and what did I do?

所以重点是我也从很多人开始的地方开始，我做了什么？

I put myself in a high-density environment.

我把自己置于一个高密度的环境中。

Next, what did I do?

接下来，我做了什么？

Knowing no one, I started to volunteer at events where they had interesting speakers and interesting people coming to hear those speakers.

由于不认识任何人，我开始在活动中做志愿者，那里有有趣的演讲者和有趣的人来听这些演讲。

So I put myself in Silicon Valley and then I began volunteering for groups like SVASE.

所以我把自己放到了硅谷，然后开始为 SVASE 这样的团体做志愿者。

I don't know if it exists anymore.

我不知道它是否还存在。

The Silicon Valley Association of Startup Entrepreneurs, I think it was Thai or the Indian Entrepreneur, which is a very sort of Indian or Indian American-focused organization that does a lot in the realm of startups.

硅谷创业企业家协会，我认为是泰国或印度企业家协会，这是一个以印度或印度裔美国人为中心的组织，在初创企业领域做了很多工作。

And I would carry water, I would take out garbage.

我会提水，倒垃圾。

I would check name badges, I would check people in.

我会检查名牌，我会检查人员。

Nothing was too low for me.

对我来说没有什么是太低的。

And I'll give you guys a tip that will be obvious to some, but nonobvious to many.

我会给你们一个提示，这对某些人来说是显而易见的，但对许多人来说却不是显而易见的。

When you are volunteering, a lot of folks who volunteer do the absolute bare minimum because they are not getting paid.

当你做志愿者时，很多志愿者只做最低限度的事情，因为他们没有得到报酬。

This is not going to get you noticed, but it sets a very low bar so that if you volunteer at these events and someone's dropping the ball or there's something happening that needs fixing and you just proactively do it, the producers of these events will notice you.

这不会让你注意到，但它设定了一个非常低的门槛，这样如果你自愿参加这些活动，而有人犯了错误，或者发生了一些需要修复的事情，而你只是主动去做，这些活动的制作者就会注意到你。

And this is what happened over time, over a few months.

这就是随着时间的推移，几个月的时间所发生的事情。

And then I got invited to join in on meetings that were planning future events.

然后我被邀请参加计划未来活动的会议。

And I eventually got to the point where I was recruiting speakers and able to set the agenda for an entire main event.

我最终达到了招募演讲者并能够为整个主要活动设定议程的地步。

And then that's how I got to know, say, Jack Canfield, who is the cocreator of Chicken Soup for the Soul, and many others who introduced me to my book agent many years later.

然后我就这样认识了杰克·坎菲尔德（Jack Canfield），他是《心灵鸡汤》的联合创始人，以及许多其他许多人，他们在很多年后将我介绍给了我的图书经纪人。

Jack Canfield.

杰克·坎菲尔德。

But I was a nobody then.

但那时我还是一个无名小卒。

You have to play the long game, but you can be methodical on how you play that.

你必须打持久战，但你可以有条不紊地进行比赛。

And that is one approach, just as an example for how to build your network, which snowballs over time.

这是一种方法，就像如何构建网络的示例一样，随着时间的推移，网络会像滚雪球一样越滚越大。

Don't hump every VIP's leg within ten minutes of meeting them.

不要在见到每个重要人物后十分钟内就驼背他们的腿。

Play it cool.

玩得很酷。

Andrew Huberman: And gatherings where that person has a lot of demands on them is the last place you want to do that.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：而那个人对他们有很多要求的聚会是你最不想做的地方。

Tim Ferriss: The way you're going to make yourself.

蒂姆·费里斯：你要塑造自己的方式。

Andrew Huberman: No saliency to that.

Andrew Huberman：这一点并不重要。

Tim Ferriss: Yeah.

蒂姆·费里斯：是的。

The way you're going to make yourself memorable with people like that is to be very professional, always on time, predict what they are going to need or problems they'll run into beforehand and address them before they even think of them, and be easy to deal with.

你要让自己在这样的人面前留下深刻的印象，就是要非常专业，总是准时，提前预测他们将需要什么或他们将遇到的问题，并在他们想到之前解决它们，并且很容易处理。

And people like that, high performers notice these things.

像这样的人，高绩效者会注意到这些事情。

They will make note of it.

他们会记下它。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

The being easy to work with is something that I used to tell my graduate students postdocs.

“易于合作”是我曾经告诉我的研究生博士后的一句话。

Because the opposite of that, nobody wants, right?

因为与此相反，没有人想要，对吧？

Nobody wants that.

没有人想要这样。

Tim Ferriss: Yeah.

蒂姆·费里斯：是的。

Especially in the beginning.

尤其是在开始的时候。

Like later, okay, great.

就像后来那样，好吧，太好了。

You're Steve Jobs.

你是史蒂夫·乔布斯。

You want to be difficult here and there, or a lot, no problem, right.

你想在这里或那里变得困难，或者很多，没有问题，对吧。

But in the beginning, that can be a real liability.

但一开始，这可能是一个真正的责任。

You can make up for that if you're the best in the world.

如果你是世界上最好的，你可以弥补这一点。

But in the very beginning, you probably won't be.

但一开始，你可能不会。

So try to stack the deck in your favor.

因此，请尝试将牌堆放在对您有利的位置上。

Volunteering is a shortcut, and that would be one way of doing it.

志愿服务是一条捷径，这也是实现这一目标的一种方式。

Another now, especially given the virtual communities that exist.

现在又是一个，特别是考虑到虚拟社区的存在。

So you have subreddits, you have online communities, you have Twitter groups, you have Clubhouse.

所以你有 subreddits，你有在线社区，你有 Twitter 小组，你有 Clubhouse。

You've got a million different options, which can be overwhelming.

你有一百万种不同的选择，这可能会让人不知所措。

Andrew Huberman: Clubhouse still going?

安德鲁·休伯曼：俱乐部会所还在继续吗？

Tim Ferriss: Maybe not.

蒂姆·费里斯：也许不是。

I have no idea.

我不知道。

Andrew Huberman: Oh, no. I don't know.

安德鲁·休伯曼：哦，不。我不知道。

I'm not saying it's gone.

我并不是说它已经消失了。

I remember during the pandemic, there were some Clubhouse gatherings that hopped on there, but I've sort of forgotten to get on that.

我记得在大流行期间，有一些俱乐部聚会在那里举行，但我有点忘记参加了。

Tim Ferriss: Maybe not the platform affinity is really fickle, which is why I think, to the extent possible, if you want to build a world class, and I use that term very deliberately, network in record time, just to give you a nice headline.

蒂姆·费里斯：也许不是平台亲和力真的变幻无常，这就是为什么我认为，在可能的范围内，如果你想建立一个世界级的，我非常有意地使用这个术语，在创纪录的时间内建立网络，只是为了给你一个漂亮的标题。

I would say focus on the uncrowded channel, which is in-person.

我想说的是，重点关注不拥挤的渠道，即面对面的渠道。

It's out of fashion, it's out of vogue.

它已经过时了，它已经过时了。

Going to a conference and actually interacting with humans in the hallway, approaching panelists.

去参加一个会议，在走廊里与人实际互动，接近小组成员。

This is another thing that I did.

这是我做的另一件事。

I'll give another tip.

我会给出另一个提示。

So very early on, I would go to conferences.

所以很早就，我会去参加会议。

Nobody cared who I was.

没人关心我是谁。

Nobody knew who I was.

没有人知道我是谁。

Fine.

美好的。

And I would study the panels.

我会研究面板。

Let's say I'm going to a big event like South by Southwest, and this is what I did in 2007, which was just prior to the first book coming out.

假设我要去参加像西南偏南这样的大型活动，这是我在 2007 年所做的，当时正好是第一本书出版之前。

And I would go to these various in-person events.

我会参加这些不同的现场活动。

I was focused mostly on events that had the thematic focus of blogs.

我主要关注以博客为主题的活动。

We could come back to that, but blogs were what podcasts were a few years ago.

我们可以回到这个话题，但博客就像几年前的播客一样。

They drove incredible traffic, but they were undervalued by mainstream media, undervalued by mainstream publishers, etc., which meant there was an arbitrage opportunity, in a way.

它们带来了令人难以置信的流量，但它们被主流媒体低估，被主流出版商低估，等等，这在某种程度上意味着存在套利机会。

And I would pick, say, a handful of panels with topics I thought were super interesting, and then the panel would end.

比如说，我会选择一些我认为非常有趣的主题的小组，然后小组就会结束。

And what would happen?

会发生什么？

The panelists would get rushed by various folks because many of them were well known.

小组成员会被各种各样的人催促，因为他们中的许多人都是众所周知的。

Who was not getting rushed?

谁不着急？

The moderator.

主持人。

I would go straight to the moderator, and I would talk to the moderator.

我会直接去找主持人，然后和主持人交谈。

I'd thank them for the panel.

我要感谢他们的小组。

I would be very genuine.

我会非常真诚。

None of it was made up.

这些都不是编出来的。

And talk to them for a bit.

并与他们交谈一下。

They would generally ask why I was there, what I was interested in.

他们通常会问我为什么来这里，我对什么感兴趣。

I would mention whatever that happened to be.

我会提及发生的一切。

In this case, it was, I'm finishing my first book, or I have my first book coming out soon.

在这种情况下，它是，我正在完成我的第一本书，或者我的第一本书即将出版。

I'm here to hopefully meet people who are involved with A, B or C.

我来这里是希望能遇到参与 A、B 或 C 的人。

And then if we hit it off, which was not true every time, but if it seemed to be going well, I would say, I don't know anyone here.

然后，如果我们一拍即合，虽然并非每次都是如此，但如果看起来进展顺利，我会说，我在这里不认识任何人。

I'm really sort of orphaned here, making my way through this entire event.

我真的有点像孤儿，独自经历了整个事件。

Is there anyone else here you think I would get along with?

你认为这里还有其他人可以和我相处吗？

Who maybe I could buy a drink or a coffee.

也许我可以买一杯饮料或咖啡。

And the vast majority of the time they'd be like, oh, yeah, you should meet so-and-so.

绝大多数时候他们会说，哦，是的，你应该见见某某人。

And then I get the introduction, and then I would meet that person.

然后我得到介绍，然后我就会见到那个人。

I would have a genuine interaction with that person, and if it made sense, if things were going well, I'd do the same thing.

我会与那个人进行真诚的互动，如果有意义，如果事情进展顺利，我也会做同样的事情。

Is there anybody else here you think I should just say hi to?

你认为我应该向这里的其他人打个招呼吗？

And I'd get along with?

我会和睦相处吗？

Not who I can ask for something.

不是我可以向谁索要什么。

And that wasn't deception.

那不是欺骗。

I was being honest, like someone I could actually vibe with.

我很诚实，就像一个我可以真正与之共鸣的人。

And if so, would you mind making the intro?

如果是这样，您介意做一下介绍吗？

Yeah, sure.

是的，当然。

No problem.

没问题。

Many of those people are still my friends.

其中许多人仍然是我的朋友。

And by being surgical in that way, not trying to gather business cards, to use a really antiquated metaphor at this point.

通过这种外科手术式的方式，而不是试图收集名片，在这一点上使用一个非常过时的比喻。

Yeah, people still hand them out.

是的，人们仍然分发它们。

I guess it depends on where you are, especially like, Boston.

我想这取决于你在哪里，尤其是波士顿。

But rather than trying to collect people as Pokemon cards, developing, say, five, three to five deeper relationships through longer conversations at an event, that is what directly led ultimately to the hockey stick for "The 4-Hour Workweek" within tech, within specifically San Francisco.

但是，与其试图以口袋妖怪卡的形式收集人们，不如通过在一次活动中进行更长时间的对话来发展五、三到五个更深层次的关系，这才是最终直接导致科技领域（特别是旧金山）“每周工作 4 小时”的曲棍球棒的原因。

So those would be a few approaches for building your network when you don't have the ability to just walk up to, say, Kevin Kelly, and have a conversation that came over time.

因此，当您无法走到凯文·凯利（Kevin Kelly）身边并随着时间的推移进行对话时，这些将是建立您的网络的几种方法。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

Whether or not it's health practices or nutritional practices or at meetings, seems you're oriented toward the uncrowded but very interesting people in spaces.

无论是健康实践、营养实践还是会议，你似乎都倾向于空间中不拥挤但非常有趣的人。

But the keyword there, I think, is uncrowded.

但我认为，那里的关键词是不拥挤。

And, of course, the other keyword is interesting.

当然，另一个关键字很有趣。

I mean, it's not like you're standing in the parking lot talking to whoever happens to be there, although that can be interesting.

我的意思是，这并不像你站在停车场与碰巧在那里的人交谈，尽管这可能很有趣。

There's a serendipity there, and there's always things to learn from people.

那里有偶然性，而且总有一些东西可以向人们学习。

But in terms of career advancement and building new ideas and forging for information, I'm just struck how you've done that over and over and again.

但在职业发展、建立新想法和锻造信息方面，我对你一次又一次地这样做感到震惊。

Thank you for giving us some insight into the process.

感谢您让我们对这个过程有一些了解。

Tim Ferriss: Please.

蒂姆·费里斯：拜托。

All right, here's another one.

好吧，这是另一张。

So I think there's a tendency among people who want to develop their networks or their relationships to be starfuckers.

所以我认为那些想要发展自己的网络或人际关系的人有一种成为明星的倾向。

Not to get too technical, but--

不要太技术化，但是——

Andrew Huberman: That's a technical term.

Andrew Huberman：这是一个技术术语。

Tim Ferriss: Yeah.

蒂姆·费里斯：是的。

They want to tell other people they are friends with someone more than they want to develop skills or learn from someone.

他们更想告诉别人他们是某人的朋友，而不是想发展技能或向某人学习。

This puts you in a very disadvantaged position, because then that means, all right, you want to become friends with Elon Musk?

这让你处于非常不利的地位，因为这意味着，好吧，你想和埃隆·马斯克成为朋友吗？

Good luck.

祝你好运。

Or you want to become friends with this A-lister celebrity who everyone else wants to meet?

或者您想与这位其他人都想认识的一线明星成为朋友？

Good luck.

祝你好运。

It's going to be a crowded, bloody path to get there.

到达那里将是一条拥挤、血腥的道路。

And by the way, they've also certainly developed really attuned defenses against people like you, so it's going to be hard.

顺便说一句，他们也确实针对像你这样的人发展出了真正协调的防御措施，所以这会很困难。

On the other--

另一方面——

Andrew Huberman: They have staff to prevent that from happening.

Andrew Huberman：他们有工作人员来防止这种情况发生。

Tim Ferriss: They have a phalanx of protectors to prevent you from ever getting to that person.

蒂姆·费里斯：他们有一队保护者来防止你接近那个人。

On the other hand, if you're approaching it from the standpoint of developing skills, learning, and actually becoming potential friends with someone, give you an example, you could go after...

另一方面，如果你是从发展技能、学习以及真正与某人成为潜在朋友的角度来对待它，给你一个例子，你可以追求......

You want to become better at boxing?

您想在拳击方面变得更好吗？

Let's just make that up.

我们来弥补一下吧。

All right, maybe not the greatest example.

好吧，也许这不是最好的例子。

Skiing would be another one.

滑雪将是另一回事。

But let's stick with boxing just because of the way I'll explain it.

但我们还是继续讨论拳击吧，因为我会解释它。

If you wanted to say, get personalized lessons from Floyd Mayweather, ain't gonna happen.

如果你想说，从弗洛伊德·梅威瑟那里获得个性化的课程，那是不可能的。

Okay, let's go then.

好吧，那我们走吧。

Maybe a step down out of the pro ranks to gold medalist.

也许会从职业选手的行列降级为金牌得主。

Okay, if it's a brand new gold medalist, let's just say, like Oscar De La Hoya, when he was really the golden boy and had just thrashed everyone, still going to be hard.

好吧，如果是一个全新的金牌得主，就像奥斯卡·德拉·霍亚那样，当他真的是金童并且刚刚击败了所有人时，仍然会很难。

What about the silver medalist who just had a bad day when he had that last bout against Oscar De La Hoya?

那么这位银牌得主在最后一场对阵奥斯卡·德拉·霍亚的比赛中度过了糟糕的一天呢？

Potentially.

有潜力。

From a technical perspective, from a personal connection perspective, you may have more in common with that person or a bronze medalist, and they can get you 70, 80, 90% of the way there.

从技术角度、从个人关系角度来看，你可能与那个人或铜牌得主有更多共同点，他们可以帮助你实现 70%、80%、90% 的目标。

And by the way, you probably don't have the physical attributes to make it to 100% anyway.

顺便说一句，无论如何你可能都不具备达到 100% 的物理属性。

If you're coming to it this late and you could get, in many cases, one-on-one lessons, whether in person or virtually with someone who is of that caliber, they're in the same front of the pack as the names I just mentioned.

如果你这么晚才来，在很多情况下，你可以获得一对一的课程，无论是面对面的还是与有这种能力的人一起虚拟的，他们和我刚才提到的名字在同一群人中。

Maybe not as famous.

也许没有那么出名。

One hundred dollars, $200 per hour for a lot of people, that is within reach.

每小时 100 美元、200 美元对于很多人来说都是可以承受的。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah and I'm not sure what the value of saying one knows somebody very famous is.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，我不确定说一个人认识某个非常有名的人有什么价值。

It's just never been something that I've oriented to.

这从来都不是我所关注的事情。

Tim Ferriss: It's a common orientation, though, and I think that's true.

蒂姆·费里斯：不过，这是一个共同的方向，我认为这是事实。

For a lot of things.

对于很多事情。

Like many people use, say, psychedelics, because they want to tell other people the story that they have of doing psychedelics, right.

就像许多人使用迷幻药一样，因为他们想告诉其他人他们使用迷幻药的故事，对吧。

They're not doing it intrinsically for what they hope to get out of that experience.

他们这样做本质上并不是为了希望从这次经历中获得什么。

Maybe there's part of them, but it's more the social signaling and validation they get when they project that out at a group dinner into a story that they can tell.

也许有一部分，但更多的是当他们在集体晚宴上将其投射成一个可以讲述的故事时所获得的社会信号和验证。

And that's true for many things.

对于很多事情来说都是如此。

So one of the questions I ask myself with all sorts of things, if I could never talk about this, would I do it?

因此，我对各种事情问自己的一个问题是，如果我永远不能谈论这个，我会这样做吗？

Andrew Huberman: What a great thing to think about, right?

Andrew Huberman：这是一件多么值得思考的伟大事情，对吧？

Tim Ferriss: If I could have, let's just say we didn't know each other.

蒂姆·费里斯：如果可以的话，我们只能说我们彼此不认识。

And I was like, okay, I'm earlier in my career, let's apply some constraints.

我当时想，好吧，我还处于职业生涯的早期，让我们应用一些限制。

So I'm not where I am.

所以我不在我所在的地方。

I still want to do A, B and C in the public eye.

我仍然想在公众面前做A、B和C。

Maybe I want to build a podcast, whoever.

也许我想建立一个播客，不管是谁。

If I could meet with you, but I could never tell a soul, would I do it?

如果我能见到你，但我却无法告诉任何人，我会这样做吗？

I don't know.

我不知道。

Andrew Huberman: Would you?

安德鲁·休伯曼：你愿意吗？

Tim Ferriss: I would.

蒂姆·费里斯：我会的。

Andrew Huberman: Thank you.

安德鲁·休伯曼：谢谢。

I would, too.

我也会的。

Tim Ferriss: But for a lot of folks, if they.

蒂姆·费里斯：但对于很多人来说，如果他们的话。

Andrew Huberman: Meaning I'd meet with you, I'm not saying I'd meet with me, by the way.

Andrew Huberman：顺便说一下，我的意思是我会和你见面，但我并不是说我会和我见面。

Tim Ferriss and Andrew Huberman : I'd meet with me.

蒂姆·费里斯和安德鲁·休伯曼：我会和我见面。

Believe me, I meet with me all the time, and sometimes it's pretty unpleasant.

相信我，我经常遇到这样的情况，有时甚至会很不愉快。

Tim Ferriss: Yeah.

蒂姆·费里斯：是的。

And that can be applied to all sorts of things.

这可以应用于各种各样的事情。

And it's a useful question because I ask myself this for examining your motivations, and I'm not saying one motivation is always better than another, but you should at least be aware of your driving motivations, because you can end up playing games you're not even aware you're playing.

这是一个有用的问题，因为我问自己这个问题是为了检查你的动机，我并不是说一种动机总是比另一种更好，但你至少应该意识到你的驱动动机，因为你最终可能会玩你甚至不知道自己在玩的游戏。

And that's how you end up, I think, getting into a lot of trouble in life, one of the ways.

我想，这就是你最终会在生活中陷入很多麻烦的原因之一。

So that would be a question I might apply.

所以这将是我可能提出的一个问题。

I apply other questions, like, there's a great question that Seth Godin applies, who really, I admire tremendously and has built an incredibly unorthodox, unique life for himself and his family.

我提出了其他问题，比如塞思·戈丁（Seth Godin）提出了一个很好的问题，我真的非常钦佩他，他为自己和他的家人建立了一种令人难以置信的非正统、独特的生活。

He's zigged when everyone would expect him to zag, and he always has a defensible logic behind it.

当每个人都期望他曲折时，他却曲折前进，而他背后总是有一个可辩护的逻辑。

And much like Derek Sivers, but most people have probably heard the hypothetical question, like, what would you do if you knew you couldn't fail?

就像德里克·西弗斯一样，但大多数人可能都听过这个假设性问题，比如，如果你知道自己不会失败，你会怎么做？

Right?

正确的？

Or, what would you do if you couldn't fail?

或者说，如果你不能失败，你会做什么？

And Seth turns that around.

而赛斯则扭转了局面。

I think that's a good question.

我认为这是一个好问题。

But he turns around, he said, what would you do if you knew you were going to fail?

但他转过身来，他说，如果你知道自己会失败，你会怎么做？

In terms of identifying what you would do for the process.

就确定您将为该流程做什么而言。

What would you do if you knew it was going to fail?

如果你知道它会失败，你会怎么做？

Okay, you're considering these five different projects.

好的，您正在考虑这五个不同的项目。

Let's say they're all going to fail, but you still have to choose one of the five.

假设他们都会失败，但你仍然必须从五个中选择一个。

Which would you choose?

你会选择哪个？

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, that's a great question.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，这是一个很好的问题。

Much harder to answer.

更难回答。

And at the same time, I'm called back to when I was a graduate student, and still now with the podcast, I have this litmus test, which is, is the experiment that I'm working on the one that I want to be working on most.

与此同时，我被召回当我还是一名研究生时，现在仍然通过播客，我进行了这个试金石测试，也就是说，这是我正在做的实验，也是我最想做的实验。

Is the podcast that I'm working on, the one that I want to be working on most.

我正在制作的播客是我最想制作的播客吗？

I mean, there's truly no other podcast I'd rather be having today than this one.

我的意思是，今天确实没有其他播客比这个更让我想听了。

And the moment I'm starting to think, oh, I wish I was doing that thing over there, I realize I'm off target.

当我开始思考，哦，我希望我在那里做那件事时，我意识到我偏离了目标。

I'm off target.

我偏离目标了。

And I think that asking really good questions is something clearly that you're very good at and getting a little bit deeper into your process around that.

我认为提出真正好的问题显然是你非常擅长的事情，并且围绕这个问题更深入地了解你的过程。

Do you write those things down?

你把这些事情写下来吗？

Is there a notebook someplace in the kingdom of Tim Ferriss in Austin or elsewhere that know those questions?

在奥斯汀的蒂姆·费里斯王国或其他地方是否有笔记本知道这些问题？

Essentially, those questions are written.

本质上，这些问题都是写下来的。

Are they--

他们是不是——

Tim Ferriss: Yeah.

蒂姆·费里斯：是的。

I collect.

我收集。

I literally have a document with questions that I've gathered from Seth printed out.

我确实有一份文件，里面有我从赛斯那里收集到的问题，并打印出来。

And at the Airbnb where I'm staying here, I brought it--

在我住的爱彼迎，我把它带来了——

Andrew Huberman: You brought it with you.

Andrew Huberman：你把它带来了。

Tim Ferriss: I printed it out here, and then I went through and I read it last night, and I was highlighting questions from past interviews I've had with him on my podcast to revisit his questions.

蒂姆·费里斯：我把它打印在这里，然后我昨晚读了它，我在播客上强调了我过去与他进行的采访中的问题，以重新审视他的问题。

So I was literally doing that last night over dinner.

所以我昨晚吃晚饭时确实是这样做的。

And I collect questions.

我收集问题。

I collect questions.

我收集问题。

If I am reading a magazine and I come across a good question, I take a photo or I capture it somehow in notes or in Evernote, which I know is kind of old fashioned these days, but I've used it for everything.

如果我正在读一本杂志，遇到一个好问题，我会拍一张照片，或者以某种方式将其记录在笔记或 Evernote 中，我知道现在这种方式有点过时，但我已经用它来做所有事情了。

So the critical mass is beyond enormous.

所以临界质量是非常巨大的。

And I do collect and revisit these things.

我确实收集并重新审视这些东西。

I capture them in journals as well, but I absolutely capture good questions when I find them.

我也在日记中捕捉到它们，但当我发现它们时，我绝对捕捉到了好问题。

Andrew Huberman: Questions are so powerful for the brain.

Andrew Huberman：问题对于大脑来说非常强大。

I don't want to go into this in too much detail because I have a lot more questions for you.

我不想详细讨论这个问题，因为我还有很多问题要问你。

Tim Ferriss : But we just wrapped a series on mental health that will come out later this year with Paul Conti, and he is brilliant, as we both know, and does truly important work.

蒂姆·费里斯：但我们刚刚完成了一个关于心理健康的系列节目，将于今年晚些时候与保罗·孔蒂合作推出，正如我们都知道的那样，他非常出色，并且做了真正重要的工作。

And he pointed to the value of asking really good questions about oneself.

他还指出了提出有关自己的真正好的问题的价值。

And because of the way that questions that are really directed at self-inquiry queue up the subconscious.

因为那些真正针对自我探究的问题会在潜意识中排队。

So you ask the question.

所以你问这个问题。

And unlike a statement or a meme, the brain works with that in the days and hours after asking the question in ways that simple declarative statements probably don't ping the system the same way, which is probably why we can see so many points of wisdom and truth everywhere.

与陈述或模因不同的是，在提出问题后的几天和几小时内，大脑会以简单的声明性陈述可能不会以同样的方式对系统进行响应的方式进行处理，这可能就是为什么我们到处都能看到这么多智慧和真理的观点。

And it doesn't necessarily transform us, but asking really good questions really does seem to transform us.

它不一定会改变我们，但提出真正好的问题似乎确实会改变我们。

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, I think judging people by their questions is also a shortcut to assessing and learning a lot about how someone functions and what makes them tick.

蒂姆·费里斯：是的，我认为根据人们的问题来判断他们也是评估和了解某人如何运作以及是什么让他们行事的捷径。

I think it was Voltaire who said, "judge a man by his questions, by his answers," something along those lines.

我认为伏尔泰说过，“通过一个人的问题和他的答案来判断一个人”，大概就是这样的意思。

But when in doubt, attribute to Voltaire.

但如有疑问，请归因于伏尔泰。

It sounds good.

听起来不错。

Andrew Huberman: Does sound good.

安德鲁·休伯曼：听起来不错。

Tim Ferriss: And I think about this a lot.

蒂姆·费里斯：我经常思考这个问题。

I do think about the questions, and I refine the questions that I ask myself, especially while journaling, because it's easier to cross-examine and stress test your own certainty and beliefs when they are captured on paper or digitally on a laptop, for instance.

我确实会思考这些问题，并完善我问自己的问题，尤其是在写日记的时候，因为当你自己的确定性和信念被记录在纸上或在笔记本电脑上以数字方式记录时，更容易交叉检验和压力测试你自己的确定性和信念。

So I do routinely revisit certain questions that I've found helpful over time.

因此，随着时间的推移，我确实会定期重新审视一些我发现有帮助的问题。

I mean, one that people can play with is with whatever is really causing you consternation or stress at the moment.

我的意思是，人们可以玩的游戏是当前真正给你带来惊愕或压力的游戏。

Some kind of decision, a relationship, business, could be anything.

某种决定、一段关系、生意，可以是任何东西。

Just what might this look like if it were easy?

如果这很容易的话，这会是什么样子呢？

What might this look like if it were easy?

如果这很容易的话，这会是什么样子？

If it had to be easy, if that were possible, what might it look like?

如果它必须很容易，如果这是可能的，它会是什么样子？

Andrew Huberman: And that could apply to anything.

Andrew Huberman：这适用于任何事物。

Tim Ferriss: That could apply to anything.

蒂姆·费里斯：这可以适用于任何事情。

Could apply to fitness.

可以应用于健身。

It's like, look, if you do really intense kettlebell swings twice a week with proper weight and load and time under tension, and you do push-ups a few times a week and handle a couple of other elements, you can get in pretty good shape.

就像，看，如果你每周做两次剧烈的壶铃摆动，并在适当的重量、负荷和紧张的时间下进行，每周做几次俯卧撑并处理其他一些元素，你就能获得相当好的体形。

It's so simple, but hits a lot.

就是这么简单，但是点击率却很高。

I mean, it hits your entire posterior chain.

我的意思是，它会击中你的整个后链。

Okay, fine, do some push-ups and some core work.

好吧，好吧，做一些俯卧撑和一些核心训练。

But if you're not exercising at all because you've made the assumption that it's four hours, five hours a week.

但如果你根本不锻炼，因为你假设每周锻炼四、五个小时。

Rather than completely remove that objective and call it just impractical, can you ratchet down the scale?

您能否缩小规模，而不是完全取消该目标并称其不切实际？

How far can you ratchet down the scale until you have no excuses, right?

你能把规模缩小到什么程度，直到你没有借口为止，对吧？

That would just be one example.

这只是一个例子。

Language learning, tech investing, applies to everything.

语言学习、科技投资适用于一切。

Andrew Huberman: Making life easier is something that definitely gets my vote.

Andrew Huberman：让生活变得更轻松绝对是我的投票。

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, making it easier and making it more elegant.

蒂姆·费里斯：是的，让它变得更容易、更优雅。

The more pieces in your life you have floating around, the more contacts, the more extraneous loose connections, the harder your life is going to be.

你生活中的碎片越多，接触越多，无关的松散联系越多，你的生活就会越困难。

The cognitive overload or overhead is really high.

认知超载或开销确实很高。

So I'm always looking for maybe like Japanese flower arranging.

所以我一直在寻找也许像日本插花的东西。

It's like, okay, how many pieces can I remove while still maintaining the essence of what I'm trying to achieve?

就像，好吧，我可以删除多少部分，同时仍然保持我想要实现的目标的本质？

Andrew Huberman: You and Rick Rubin, man, I'm telling you, two people I am fortunate enough to know personally and that I have tremendous respect for, and the work is self-evident.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我告诉你，你和里克·鲁宾，我很幸运能够亲自认识这两个人，并且我非常尊重他们，而且他们的工作是不言而喻的。

It's really remarkable.

这真的很了不起。

So rewind that and listen to that segment right there, folks.

因此，伙计们，倒回并听一下该片段。

I'm telling you, I've worked hard to apply it because it's not my default.

我告诉你，我很努力地应用它，因为这不是我的默认设置。

And, boy, does it make a significant improvement to simplify, simplify, simplify.

而且，天哪，它是否在简化、简化、简化方面做出了重大改进。

It takes some thought and question asking.

这需要一些思考和提问。

It's like you just can't delete things at random, so you get down to some fixed number.

就像你不能随意删除东西一样，所以你只能减少一些固定的数量。

I'd like to ask you about another area where you really have seemed to see around corners, and this is one that actually carried with it significant risk, not necessarily risk to health and to life, but risk in terms of outside perceptions, and that's psychedelics.

我想问你关于另一个领域，你似乎确实看到了拐角处，而这个领域实际上带来了巨大的风险，不一定是对健康和生命的风险，而是对外界看法的风险，这就是迷幻剂。

As you know, I've substantially changed my view on this.

如你所知，我对此的看法已经发生了很大的改变。

We don't need to go into my former stance on it.

我们不需要再讨论我之前的立场。

I talked about that when you were gracious enough to host me on your podcast for a second time.

当你第二次在你的播客上招待我时，我谈到了这一点。

I'd done some psychedelics recreationally as a kid.

我小时候曾为了娱乐而吸过一些迷幻药。

It was correlated with not-so-great times in my life, stayed away from them, then eventually revisited MDMA in particular, from a therapeutic standpoint, found tremendous benefit again, therapeutically with a medical doctor.

它与我生命中不太美好的时光有关，远离它们，然后最终重新审视MDMA，特别是从治疗的角度来看，在医生的治疗下再次发现了巨大的好处。

Again, these drugs are illegal.

再次强调，这些药物是非法的。

Soon to change, perhaps, hopefully, and we'll talk about that.

也许很快就会改变，希望如此，我们将讨论这一点。

But it's becoming clear from the controlled studies by Robin Carhart-Harris, there are many others, okay, Nolan Williams, others, that these drugs have enormous potential to help relieve depression, trauma, help people explore their psyche, their mind, for sake of feeling better, doing better in the world, for leaning into life — not tune in, drop out, but to really lean into life with more purpose and more satisfaction.

但从罗宾·卡哈特-哈里斯（Robin Carhart-Harris）的对照研究中可以清楚地看出，还有很多其他人，好吧，诺兰·威廉姆斯（Nolan Williams）等人，这些药物具有巨大的潜力，可以帮助缓解抑郁、创伤，帮助人们探索自己的心灵、思想，让自己感觉更好，在世界上做得更好，融入生活——不是融入、退出，而是真正带着更多目标和更多满足感融入生活。

In some cases, they really have saved lives, I think.

我认为，在某些情况下，他们确实拯救了生命。

What was your mindset around psychedelics when you first started exploring them?

当您第一次开始探索迷幻药时，您的心态是什么？

What led you to overcome the inevitable fear gap there?

是什么让你克服了那里不可避免的恐惧差距？

Because you do seem like somebody who takes value in your health.

因为你看起来确实是一个重视你健康的人。

You're not reckless.

你并不鲁莽。

You may have been more adventurous in the past with things like, I hate the word, but biohacking and self-experimentation than you are now.

过去你可能比现在更喜欢冒险，比如“我讨厌这个词”，但生物黑客和自我实验。

But you obviously have some self-preservation mechanism intact.

但你显然有一些完整的自我保护机制。

Tim Ferriss: We learn.

蒂姆·费里斯：我们学习。

Andrew Huberman: We learn.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我们学习。

What was your mindset around it at the time?

您当时对此有何想法？

And then I want to get to what you've learned from it.

然后我想谈谈你从中学到了什么。

And frankly, the tremendous efforts that you've put that are now translating to tremendous value for, really, millions of people.

坦率地说，你们所付出的巨大努力现在正在为数百万人转化为巨大的价值。

And ultimately, I think it's going to be billions of people.

最终，我认为这将是数十亿人。

By establishing funding for the pioneering research in this area, helping to promote the movement of these compounds from illegal to legal in the therapeutic setting.

通过为该领域的开创性研究提供资金，帮助促进这些化合物在治疗环境中从非法变为合法。

So on and so on.

依此类推。

So take us back to your first thoughtful exploration of psychedelics.

那么，让我们回到你对迷幻药的第一次深思熟虑的探索。

What did that look like?

那是什么样子的？

You're like, oh, mushrooms, I'll eat them.

你就像，哦，蘑菇，我会吃掉它们。

Tim Ferriss : Was that it?

蒂姆·费里斯：是这样吗？

Or was it?

或者是吗？

Or was it a dedicated research process?

或者这是一个专门的研究过程？

And who did you talk to?

你和谁说话了？

What was it all about?

到底是怎么回事？

Tim Ferriss: Let's go way back to my undergrad experience, and there were many reasons that I ended up going to Princeton.

蒂姆·费里斯：让我们回顾一下我的本科经历，我最终去普林斯顿的原因有很多。

I think I was very lucky to get in my SAT scores because I could never finish the damn test.

我认为我很幸运能够获得 SAT 成绩，因为我永远无法完成那该死的考试。

I was so much of a perfectionist, I'd get stuck and ended up not doing terribly well.

我是个完美主义者，所以我会陷入困境，最终表现不佳。

But through essays and other things, ultimately was able to go part of the draw.

但通过论文等事情，最终还是能够参加抽签。

Andrew Huberman: Let me interrupt you and just say, I think at this point we can say they were lucky to have you.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：让我打断你的话，我想现在我们可以说他们很幸运能拥有你。

Tim Ferriss: Well, thank you for saying that.

蒂姆·费里斯：好的，谢谢你这么说。

Thank you for saying that.

谢谢你这么说。

Andrew Huberman: Great institution, and you've done great, and you're a great poster on the wall for them.

Andrew Huberman：伟大的机构，你们做得很好，你们是墙上的一张很棒的海报。

Tim Ferriss: I hope so.

蒂姆·费里斯：我希望如此。

Andrew Huberman: I just want to say it because you're not going to.

Andrew Huberman：我只是想说，因为你不会这么做。

And I think it's important that these are great institutions, have great minds go through there, and Einstein went through there, and their success rests not just on the Einsteins but also on the student body and what they go out into the world and do, and not just in the realm of science.

我认为重要的是，这些都是伟大的机构，拥有伟大的思想，爱因斯坦也曾在那里，他们的成功不仅取决于爱因斯坦，还取决于学生群体以及他们走向世界和所做的事情，而不仅仅是在科学领域。

So really, they're lucky to have had you.

所以说真的，他们很幸运有你。

Tim Ferriss: Yeah.

蒂姆·费里斯：是的。

Thank you, Andrew.

谢谢你，安德鲁。

I studied Chinese in a room where Einstein used to teach.

我在爱因斯坦曾经教书的房间里学习中文。

It's pretty cool to set foot and spend time weekly in a space that was shared by some of these people.

每周踏入其中一些人共享的空间并度过一段时间是非常酷的。

It really gets the imagination firing.

它确实激发了人们的想象力。

If we go back to that chapter in my life.

如果我们回到我生命中的那一章。

I was initially a psychology major with a focus on neuroscience, so I wanted to be a neuroscientist.

我最初主修心理学，主修神经科学，所以我想成为一名神经科学家。

And there are many reasons for that.

原因有很多。

I have neurodegenerative disease on both sides of my family, so Parkinson's and Alzheimer's.

我的家人都患有神经退行性疾病，例如帕金森症和阿尔茨海默氏症。

So that was certainly a personal driving interest in terms of looking at mechanisms, understanding what therapeutics existed or did not exist, how things were developing in the research.

因此，这无疑是个人对研究机制、了解存在或不存在的疗法以及研究进展如何的个人兴趣。

And while I was there, which later, I ended up switching gears and transferring to focus on language acquisition and East Asian studies, hence the Chinese that I mentioned earlier, and Japanese and Korean.

当我在那里时，后来，我最终改变了方向，专注于语言习得和东亚研究，因此是我之前提到的中文、日语和韩语。

But on the neuroscience side, there were a lot of cool breakthroughs also that came out of Princeton around that time.

但在神经科学方面，当时普林斯顿大学也取得了很多很酷的突破。

Looking at the amazing discovery of, say neuronal, I don't want to say regenesis, but neurogenesis in the hippocampus.

看看神经元的惊人发现，我不想说再生，而是海马体中的神经发生。

Andrew Huberman: Liz Gould's work.

安德鲁·休伯曼：莉兹·古尔德的作品。

Tim Ferriss: Exactly.

蒂姆·费里斯：没错。

So there was quite a bit happening at that time.

所以当时发生了很多事情。

I was a subject.

我是一个主题。

I loved volunteering for studies just to try to get an inside look at how things were done in some of Daniel Kahneman's experiments.

我喜欢自愿参加研究，只是为了深入了解丹尼尔·卡尼曼的一些实验是如何完成的。

So it was a cool time to be there.

所以那是一个很酷的时光。

And within the first two years, I want to say I had my first experience recreationally with mushrooms.

在最初的两年里，我想说我第一次以休闲方式体验蘑菇。

And looking back now, I'm horrified by just the lack of control and meaning.

现在回想起来，我对缺乏控制和意义感到震惊。

Not control, but lack of supervision.

不是控制，而是缺乏监督。

The set and setting ended up being fine.

布景和设置最终都很好。

Nothing terrible happened, but there were a lot of ways it could have gone sideways.

没有什么可怕的事情发生，但有很多方面可能会出现问题。

But that first experience, and I must have consumed, in retrospect, just a dizzying amount of mushrooms.

但回想起来，第一次经历，我一定是吃了令人眼花缭乱的蘑菇。

Andrew Huberman: In the excess of 5 grams.

Andrew Huberman：超过 5 克。

Tim Ferriss: It would have been more.

蒂姆·费里斯：本来会更多。

Yeah.

是的。

Just knowing what I know now, it would have been--

就我现在所知道的情况来看，情况会是——

Andrew Huberman: Kids, don't do this at all.

Andrew Huberman：孩子们，根本不要这样做。

Don't do that.

不要那样做。

I'm not going to say don't do it at home.

我不会说不要在家里这样做。

Don't do it at all.

根本不要这样做。

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, please.

蒂姆·费里斯：好的，请讲。

Andrew Huberman: I actually don't think the young developing brain should be exposed to psychedelics.

安德鲁·休伯曼：实际上，我认为年轻的发育中的大脑不应该接触致幻剂。

Tim Ferriss: We could talk about that.

蒂姆·费里斯：我们可以谈谈这个。

Andrew Huberman: I'm going to take my stance.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我将表明我的立场。

I'm going to take for now.

我暂时就拿走吧。

Tim Ferriss: Yeah.

蒂姆·费里斯：是的。

I mean, in the world in which we live, in the U.S., I would totally agree with you.

我的意思是，在我们生活的世界，在美国，我完全同意你的观点。

There are some interesting cultural exceptions in other places where things are more set up to provide for that type of use, but I certainly would not recommend it.

在其他地方有一些有趣的文化例外，那里的东西更多地设置为提供这种类型的使用，但我当然不会推荐它。

But coming back to my recreational experience, my subjective experience was so bizarre and my experience of time so nonlinear, my experience of self so different from anything I had experienced up to that point.

但回到我的娱乐经历，我的主观体验是如此奇怪，我对时间的体验是如此非线性，我对自我的体验与我迄今为止所经历的任何事情都如此不同。

And therefore my construction of reality being so completely unlike anything I had experienced was enough to make me want to learn about these compounds.

因此，我对现实的构建与我经历过的任何事情都完全不同，这足以让我想要了解这些化合物。

And very early on, I still have a scan of it somewhere.

很早以前，我仍然在某处扫描过它。

I think it was in 1998 or '99, I actually wrote a paper.

我想那是在1998年或99年，我实际上写了一篇论文。

One of my junior papers was focused on examining potential similarities between REM Sleep and LSD-25 and looking at some of the patterns of neural activity.

我的一篇初级论文重点研究了 REM 睡眠和 LSD-25 之间的潜在相似性，并研究了一些神经活动模式。

Of course, we can do a lot more now with the tools that we have available, but from a scientific perspective, I was very curious about how much we knew and how much we didn't know.

当然，我们现在可以利用现有的工具做更多的事情，但从科学的角度来看，我很好奇我们知道多少和不知道多少。

And I would say that latter category gets me more excited in a way.

我想说，后一类在某种程度上让我更兴奋。

I'm like, okay, how much room is there for growth here?

我想，好吧，这里有多少成长空间？

Because if we're just putting on the finishing touches with marginal, incremental improvements on something that we feel like we've largely figured out, that's less interesting to me than something that baffles most people examining them on some level.

因为如果我们只是对一些我们认为已经基本解决的问题进行边际的、渐进的改进，那么对我来说，这比让大多数人在某种程度上检查它们感到困惑的事情更有趣。

And there was a professor named Barry Jacobs who was doing some very interesting work.

有一位名叫巴里·雅各布斯的教授正在做一些非常有趣的工作。

He did a lot of work looking at the serotonergic systems and did a lot of work with cats.

他做了很多研究血清素系统的工作，并对猫做了很多研究。

Ultimately, I could not do, personally, the animal work required of the sort of indentured servitude that I would...

最终，我个人无法做我想做的那种契约奴役所需的动物工作……

Andrew Huberman: I think you wrote someplace once, you said, when confronted with the prospect of installing a computer printer into the head--

安德鲁·休伯曼：我想你曾经在某个地方写过，你说，当你面临着在头部安装一台计算机打印机的前景时——

Tim Ferriss: Printer jack.

蒂姆·费里斯：打印机插孔。

Andrew Huberman: On the back of a cat head.

Andrew Huberman：在猫头的背面。

Tim Ferriss: They literally had those little VGA ports on the back of these cats' heads, because cats sleep a lot, and so they're interesting to study.

Tim Ferriss：他们确实在这些猫的后脑勺上有那些小 VGA 端口，因为猫睡得很多，所以研究它们很有趣。

Andrew Huberman: Cats.

安德鲁·休伯曼：猫。

Very few laboratories work on cats any longer.

很少有实验室再研究猫了。

It's mostly a mouse, still some nonhuman primate work.

它主要是老鼠的作品，还有一些非人类灵长类动物的作品。

My laboratory has essentially shut down, or the process of shutting down even our mouse work.

我的实验室基本上已经关闭，或者甚至关闭了我们的小鼠工作。

I much prefer to work on humans.

我更喜欢在人类身上工作。

They can give consent and they house themselves.

他们可以给予同意并为自己提供住房。

And the animal research thing is tough for any sentient being.

动物研究对于任何众生来说都是艰难的。

Tim Ferriss: It's tough.

蒂姆·费里斯：这很难。

For what it's worth, the cats seemed pretty happy, like they were just sleeping.

无论如何，这些猫看起来很高兴，就像它们只是在睡觉一样。

I mean, the ports were for tracking.

我的意思是，这些端口是用于跟踪的。

So the cats were pretty...

所以说猫猫还是蛮漂亮的...

I mean, they were just normal cats.

我的意思是，它们只是普通的猫。

The cats were fine.

猫们都很好。

But we would have been injecting retroviruses into rats and then perfusing them, which means bleeding them to death to avoid bruising of the tissue, because then, if you were going to take thin slices and scans, you didn't want to have bruising.

但我们会向老鼠注射逆转录病毒，然后对它们进行灌注，这意味着让它们失血致死，以避免组织瘀伤，因为这样，如果你要进行薄片和扫描，你不想有瘀伤。

And I just couldn't do it.

而我就是做不到。

I think it's important.

我认为这很重要。

I do think there's a place for it, but I couldn't do it.

我确实认为有一个地方可以做到，但我做不到。

So that's why I transferred out.

所以这就是我转出的原因。

But the point I was trying to make is that I had the experience, and then I had that drive, the scientific interest, and then I had probably one experience per year for a few years after that.

但我想说的是，我有过这种经历，然后我有那种动力，对科学的兴趣，然后在那之后的几年里，我可能每年都会有一次经历。

And what I noticed for myself personally, because I suffered from major depressive disorder and extended depressive episodes, let's just say, on average, three to four a year.

我个人注意到的是，因为我患有重度抑郁症和长期抑郁发作，所以可以说，平均每年三到四次。

And by extended--

并通过扩展——

Andrew Huberman: Even before you had started?

Andrew Huberman：甚至在你开始之前？

Tim Ferriss: Even before.

蒂姆·费里斯：甚至更早。

Andrew Huberman: From a young age.

安德鲁·休伯曼：从很小的时候起。

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, from very young age.

蒂姆·费里斯：是的，从很小的时候开始。

And I would say, so let's just call it three to four on average a year.

我想说，所以我们就平均每年三到四次吧。

Those could last each a few weeks or a few months.

这些可能会持续几周或几个月。

I mean, this is a very high percentage of my total year.

我的意思是，这占我全年的百分比非常高。

And when I had these higher dose experiences with mushrooms.

当我有这些更高剂量的蘑菇经历时。

So we're talking about psilocybin mushrooms.

所以我们谈论的是裸盖菇素蘑菇。

And then if we're looking at the molecule that's being examined scientifically, psilocybin, I noticed this afterglow effect that was really durable, and that was an antidepressant effect or a mood-elevating effect that lasted far longer than the half life could explain.

然后，如果我们观察正在科学检验的分子，裸盖菇素，我注意到这种余辉效应非常持久，这是一种抗抑郁作用或提振情绪的作用，其持续时间远远超过半衰期可以解释的时间。

Because four to six hours, you're kind of on the other side.

因为四到六个小时，你就处于另一边了。

And I would experience this afterglow effect for three to six months.

我会经历这种余辉效应三到六个月。

And that raised all sorts of interesting questions.

这引发了各种有趣的问题。

What the hell is going on here?

这到底是怎么回事？

Is it the content?

是内容吗？

Is it some structural change?

这是一些结构性变化吗？

There were a lot of unanswered questions for me.

我有很多未解答的问题。

And then I had a very, very scary experience that led me to completely stop use of psychedelics, where, again, uncontrolled environment, ended up in rural New York.

然后我经历了一次非常非常可怕的经历，导致我完全停止使用迷幻药，同样，不受控制的环境最终来到了纽约乡村。

Coming out of my trip, standing in the middle of the road in the middle of the night with headlights coming at me.

旅行结束后，半夜站在路中间，车灯照着我。

Andrew Huberman: Goodness gracious.

安德鲁·休伯曼：天哪。

Tim Ferriss: So you don't want to do that.

蒂姆·费里斯：所以你不想这样做。

And I was like, okay, too dangerous.

我当时想，好吧，太危险了。

Andrew Huberman: Were you taking them alone?

Andrew Huberman：你是单独带他们去的吗？

Is that how that is?

是这样吗？

Tim Ferriss: I was taking them with two friends and my two friends, without telling me, just went for a walk and left me alone.

蒂姆·费里斯：我带着他们和两个朋友一起去，我的两个朋友没有告诉我，只是出去散步，留下我一个人。

Andrew Huberman: These are powerful compounds.

Andrew Huberman：这些都是强大的化合物。

Tim Ferriss: Yeah.

蒂姆·费里斯：是的。

You're playing with nuclear power.

你在玩核能。

This is the nuclear power of psychological, or psychoemotional surgery is the way I'd encourage people to think about them.

这就是心理的核力量，或者说心理情感手术是我鼓励人们思考它们的方式。

And I stopped using any psychedelics completely.

我完全停止使用任何迷幻药。

I was still very interested in them, but I basically hit pause, and I didn't revisit that until, let's call it 2012, 2013, where I was still struggling with major depressive disorder.

我仍然对它们很感兴趣，但我基本上暂停了，直到2012年、2013年我才重新审视这一点，那时我仍在与重度抑郁症作斗争。

And I saw my girlfriend at the time completely transformed by supervised, facilitated use of, in this case, ayahuasca, which was not quite as common as it is in conversation at the time.

我看到当时我的女朋友在监督和便利使用死藤水的情况下完全改变了，在这种情况下，死藤水并不像当时谈话中那么常见。

And she did that in South America, but she not only explained her experience, but I was able to see the transformation in her that seemed to have some durability over time.

她在南美做到了这一点，但她不仅解释了她的经历，而且我能够看到她的转变，随着时间的推移，这种转变似乎具有一定的持久性。

And that is when I started stepping back into researching psychedelics, looking at what had been published in the last, let's just call it ten years as of that point in time, and thinking about how I would approach it systematically with safeguards, with proper supervision, basically approaching it the way I would have approached any of the topics in "The 4-Hour Body." And that is what led me back into, along with a number of other interventions, I should say.

就在那时，我开始重新开始研究迷幻药，看看过去发表的内容，让我们称之为十年后的时间点，并思考我将如何在保障措施和适当的监督下系统地处理它，基本上以我处理“四小时身体”中任何主题的方式处理它。我应该说，这就是让我重新陷入困境的原因，以及其他一些干预措施。

So I wasn't betting the farm on psychedelics.

所以我并没有把农场的赌注押在迷幻药上。

I also started TM at that point.

我也是那时候开始TM的。

Andrew Huberman: Some people might.

安德鲁·休伯曼：有些人可能会。

Transcendental meditation.

超然的冥想。

These are like four-to-ten-day meditation retreats.

这些就像四到十天的冥想静修。

Tim Ferriss: This was actually much shorter.

蒂姆·费里斯：这实际上要短得多。

It was a two-or-three-day training, and you're visiting the instructor, I want to say it's once or twice a day, probably once a day, and getting up to speed.

这是一个两三天的培训，你去拜访教练，我想说一天一两次，可能一天一次，然后加快速度。

And I did this because I was going through a period of acute stress.

我这样做是因为我正在经历一段巨大的压力时期。

This was finishing "The 4-Hour Chef." This was actually probably in the years preceding that.

《四小时厨师》即将完结。这实际上可能是在那之前的几年。

And I had one friend who I'd seen really change from, let's just call hyperkinetic — high anxiety to low anxiety.

我有一个朋友，我亲眼目睹他发生了巨大的变化，我们可以称之为多动症——从高焦虑到低焦虑。

And he said, you have the time, you have the money, pay for the course.

他说，你有时间，有钱，支付课程费用。

Just take it.

拿走吧。

Yes, there are all these criticisms of TM.

是的，TM都有这些批评。

Yes, there are all these weird historical anecdotes of people trying to levitate and all this weirdness.

是的，有很多奇怪的历史轶事，人们试图悬浮以及所有这些奇怪的事情。

Just ignore that.

忽略这一点。

Andrew Huberman: Trying to levitate.

安德鲁·休伯曼：试图悬浮。

Nothing against that.

没有什么反对的。

If you actually levitate, then we got to have a discussion.

如果你真的悬浮，那么我们就得讨论一下。

But trying to levitate — seems like every kid tries all sorts of things.

但试图悬浮——似乎每个孩子都会尝试各种各样的事情。

Tim Ferriss: Give it a go.

蒂姆·费里斯：试一试。

He's like, just put that aside.

他就像，把它放在一边。

Because I kept coming up with pushback, and he's like, look, all I'm saying is it's like a warm bath for your mind that you take twice a day, and it'll chill you the fuck out.

因为我一直在提出反对意见，他说，看，我想说的是，这就像每天给你的头脑洗两次热水澡，它会让你彻底冷静下来。

So try it.

所以尝试一下吧。

And I was like, okay, fine.

我当时想，好吧，好吧。

Andrew Huberman: It's a good endorsement.

安德鲁·休伯曼：这是一个很好的认可。

Tim Ferriss: I was like, at this point, I had been burning the candle at both ends so intensely, it's like, okay.

蒂姆·费里斯：我当时想，在这一点上，我一直在强烈地燃烧蜡烛的两端，就像，好吧。

So there was TM.

于是就有了TM。

And then I began examining how I might approach.

然后我开始考虑如何处理。

Notice I didn't just jump into using them.

请注意，我并不是立即开始使用它们。

I was like, how could I approach taking psychedelics in a sequence, in a logical sequence with proper protections, with safety assurances?

我当时想，我怎样才能按顺序、按逻辑顺序服用迷幻药，并采取适当的保护措施和安全保证？

And that took me probably a month or two, and I was right in the middle of things.

这可能花了我一两个月的时间，而我正处于事情的中间。

In Northern California, you have access to a lot.

在北加州，您可以接触到很多东西。

And only then did I start looking at having my own experiences.

直到那时我才开始考虑拥有自己的经历。

And lo and behold, I mean, I'll cut to the chase, but the personal outcome, and there are many different benefits and risks, I should make very clear.

你瞧，我的意思是，我会切入正题，但个人结果，以及许多不同的好处和风险，我应该说得很清楚。

These things can be extremely dangerous in certain ways, generally not physiologically, but they can be dangerous.

这些东西在某些方面可能极其危险，通常不是生理上的，但它们可能是危险的。

I would say instead of three to four times per year, on average, I probably have one depressive episode every two years.

我想说的是，平均而言，我可能每两年就会有一次抑郁发作，而不是每年三到四次。

Andrew Huberman: That's a significant improvement.

Andrew Huberman：这是一个显着的进步。

Tim Ferriss: I mean, from a quality-of-life perspective, those are two different people.

蒂姆·费里斯：我的意思是，从生活质量的角度来看，这是两个不同的人。

And that then led me to...

然后这让我...

And as I did with all my workouts, I took copious notes over the span, I mean, now we're looking at ten-plus years.

正如我在所有训练中所做的那样，我在这段时间里做了大量的笔记，我的意思是，现在我们正在考虑十多年。

So if I were to ever write another book, it would probably be related to all of the really fine details of the experiments and my learnings, including some of the more bizarre things over the last ten years, but it would be just a beast to create.

因此，如果我要写另一本书，它可能会与实验和我的学习的所有真正细节有关，包括过去十年中的一些更奇怪的事情，但它的创作将是一个野兽。

Andrew Huberman: With psychedelics?

安德鲁·休伯曼：迷幻药？

Experiences with psychedelics?

迷幻药的经历？

Tim Ferriss: Psychedelics and sort of psychedelic-adjacent, nonordinary experiences of consciousness, which I think often are touching at edges of the same thing, which is going to be controversial for some folks.

蒂姆·费里斯：迷幻剂和某种与迷幻剂相邻的、非寻常的意识体验，我认为它们经常触及同一事物的边缘，这对一些人来说会引起争议。

But to come back to the storyline, just to put a bow on that, when I saw the personal outcomes for me, the anecdata from friends who are facilitators, who have worked with thousands of people, which is a pretty good sample size, still anecdote, but these are people who are very smart, who keep records, and I believe that these people have spotted patterns that are only going to be possible to test and verify over the next five to ten years.

但回到故事情节，只是为了结束这一点，当我看到我的个人成果时，来自作为协调者的朋友的轶事，他们与数千人一起工作，这是一个相当好的样本量，仍然是轶事，但这些人非常聪明，他们保留记录，我相信这些人已经发现了只有在未来五到十年才能测试和验证的模式。

So at least as a means of generating hypotheses, I take these people very seriously.

因此，至少作为产生假设的一种手段，我非常认真地对待这些人。

And then I started to connect with scientists whose work I had read, like Roland Griffiths at Johns Hopkins, began looking at the most compelling data related to, say, MDMA-assisted psychotherapy and complex PTSD.

然后我开始与我读过的科学家联系，比如约翰·霍普金斯大学的罗兰·格里菲斯，开始研究与摇头丸辅助心理治疗和复杂的创伤后应激障碍相关的最引人注目的数据。

I made the commitment to myself that as soon as I had enough money to move the dial, because I really felt like these tools were so outside of the normal paradigm of psychiatry and pharmacology.

我对自己做出了承诺，一旦我有足够的钱来移动表盘，因为我真的觉得这些工具是如此超出精神病学和药理学的正常范式。

And that made me very excited, because it was uncrowded, there's very little funding coming to the space.

这让我非常兴奋，因为它并不拥挤，进入这个空间的资金也很少。

It was high leverage.

这是高杠杆。

And I looked at it just as I've looked at my many startup investments, limited downside risk, really high upside potential.

我看待它就像我看待我的许多初创投资一样，下行风险有限，上行潜力非常高。

And I should say before that, I had already been funding, in a very small way, science.

我应该说，在此之前，我已经以很小的方式资助了科学。

So the first check I ever wrote was personally to Adam Gazzaley's lab at UCSF.

所以我写的第一张支票是亲自写给加州大学旧金山分校 Adam Gazzaley 的实验室的。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, great lab.

Andrew Huberman：是的，很棒的实验室。

Tim Ferriss: Which at the time was looking at software.

Tim Ferriss：当时正在研究软件。

He's not going to like this description, but I'm going to simplify it.

他不会喜欢这个描述，但我会简化它。

Software that might attenuate or reverse age-related cognitive impairment, specifically related to various aspects of attention.

可能减轻或逆转与年龄相关的认知障碍，特别是与注意力的各个方面相关的软件。

And that was my first foray into funding early stage science, which was very analogous to me to funding early stage startups, and then later on to touch on the reputational thing — I know this is a TED talk, so thank you for listening--

那是我第一次尝试资助早期科学，这与我资助早期初创公司非常相似，然后才谈到声誉问题——我知道这是一个 TED 演讲，所以感谢您的聆听——

Andrew Huberman: No, this is great.

安德鲁·休伯曼：不，这太棒了。

Please.

请。

You're always so gracious on your podcast.

你在播客上总是那么客气。

This is what people want.

这就是人们想要的。

This is certainly what I want to hear.

这当然是我想听到的。

Tim Ferriss: So on the reputational side, you're right that at the time, especially, let's just call it 2013 to 2015, this was not a comfortable national conversation of any type.

蒂姆·费里斯（Tim Ferriss）：因此，从声誉方面来看，你是对的，在当时，特别是，我们姑且称之为 2013 年至 2015 年，这并不是一场令人舒服的全国性对话。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I wouldn't have had this conversation back then.

Andrew Huberman：是的，当时我不会进行这样的谈话。

Tim Ferriss: No way.

蒂姆·费里斯：不可能。

Andrew Huberman: I don't know that I would have lost my job.

Andrew Huberman：我不知道我会失去工作。

It just would have raised a lot of eyebrows now that such studies are happening at Stanford.

既然这样的研究正在斯坦福大学进行，那肯定会引起很多人的关注。

Tim Ferriss: Yeah.

蒂姆·费里斯：是的。

The perception was that these are a professional third rail at the very least.

人们的看法是，这些至少是专业的第三轨。

Right?

正确的？

Also illegal.

也是违法的。

Therefore, if I talk about them, am I giving someone probable cause?

因此，如果我谈论它们，我是否给某人提供了可能的理由？

Am I going to get myself in some type of really tricky legal situation, etc?

我是否会让自己陷入某种非常棘手的法律情况等等？

There are a lot of considerations, but I tested that.

有很多考虑因素，但我对此进行了测试。

Just like I was saying, I like to capture my assumptions on paper so I can stress test.

就像我说的，我喜欢在纸上记录我的假设，这样我就可以进行压力测试。

And I was like, okay, I think that might be true.

我当时想，好吧，我想这可能是真的。

Most people I know think that is true.

我认识的大多数人都认为这是真的。

But is it true?

但这是真的吗？

How could we test to see if that is true or not?

我们如何测试这是否属实？

And I decided to crowdfund for a Hopkins pilot study looking at psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression.

我决定为霍普金斯大学的一项试点研究众筹，研究裸盖菇素治疗难治性抑郁症的效果。

And I thought to myself, okay, we have a couple of things falling in our favor here.

我心想，好吧，这里有一些对我们有利的事情。

Number one, depression does not discriminate.

第一，抑郁症不存在歧视。

So across socioeconomic classes, across gender, across race, this is a problem.

因此，跨社会经济阶层、跨性别、跨种族，这都是一个问题。

Almost everyone knows someone who takes antidepressants who is still depressed.

几乎每个人都认识服用抗抑郁药但仍然抑郁的人。

Okay.

好的。

Treatment-resistant depression, therefore, is the indication.

因此，难治性抑郁症就是指征。

Psilocybin is the intervention.

裸盖菇素是干预措施。

Let me crowdfund.

让我众筹吧

And I did that through, at the time, Crowdrise, which was cofounded by Edward Norton, who had become a friend and was--

当时我是通过 Crowdrise 做到这一点的，该公司是由爱德华·诺顿 (Edward Norton) 共同创立的，他后来成为了我的朋友，并且——

Andrew Huberman: The actor Edward, who's very smart.

安德鲁·休伯曼：演员爱德华，非常聪明。

Tim Ferriss: Very smart.

蒂姆·费里斯：非常聪明。

Also one of the best investors I've ever met, which a lot of people don't know.

也是我见过的最好的投资者之一，但很多人不知道。

Very bright guy, and so, crowdfunded.

非常聪明的人，所以是众筹的。

And I also like to put my money where my mouth is.

而且我也喜欢说到做到。

I said, okay, guys, I'm going to seed this; like I'm putting in X.

我说，好吧，伙计们，我要播种这个；就像我放入 X 一样。

The goal is to raise, I think it was 80,000, something like that, for the following study.

我们的目标是为接下来的研究筹集 80,000 美元之类的资金。

And then I was like, let's see.

然后我想，让我们看看。

Let's see what happens.

让我们看看会发生什么。

And there was basically zero negative blowback.

而且负面影响基本上为零。

And not only was there no discernible negative blowback, a number of people, and this was deliberate.

不仅没有明显的负面影响，而且很多人都是故意的。

I wanted to see this.

我想看看这个。

A number of people came out of the woodwork to support in a bigger way, and I was like, oh, okay, I see you.

许多人突然出来以更大的方式提供支持，我当时想，哦，好吧，我看到你了。

A handful of folks I knew, and I was like, oh, interesting.

我认识一些人，我觉得，哦，有趣。

Okay, there are at least a half a dozen folks who are studying the same thing or paying attention to the same thing.

好吧，至少有六个人正在研究同一件事或关注同一件事。

And then I just got bolder.

然后我就变得更大胆了。

I was like, okay, if I tested that, let me push, and then let's see what happens, and I'll wait.

我当时想，好吧，如果我测试了，让我推动，然后让我们看看会发生什么，然后我会等待。

And lo and behold, I realized that the perception did not match the reality.

你瞧，我意识到这种看法与现实不符。

The reality was, if you're talking about indications that cause an incredible amount of suffering for a very large number of people, even those who are antidrug per se, "just say no to drugs," want solutions.

现实是，如果你谈论的是给很多人带来难以置信的痛苦的迹象，即使是那些本身就是反毒品的人，“只是对毒品说不”，需要解决方案。

And the current treatments for many of these things do not work very well, and in the best of cases, are often masking symptoms and not addressing root causes, I would say.

我想说，目前对其中许多问题的治疗方法效果不佳，即使在最好的情况下，也常常掩盖症状而不是解决根本原因。

So at that point, I just went whole hog, and I said, okay, look, I like to think that I am exactly what you see is what you get, right?

所以在那一点上，我就全力以赴，我说，好吧，看，我喜欢认为我就是你所看到的就是你得到的，对吗？

The person you talk to off camera, the person you talk to on camera, same.

在镜头外与你交谈的人，在镜头前与你交谈的人，都是一样的。

And if I start feeling like I have too much to protect, I want to do something to counteract that.

如果我开始觉得自己有太多需要保护的东西，我想做点什么来抵消这种感觉。

In other words, if I feel like I need to censor my true feelings and beliefs, maybe not share my hardships, perhaps not promote certain things, because I have a reputation to lose, that's a fragile position.

换句话说，如果我觉得我需要审查自己的真实感受和信仰，也许不分享我的困难，也许不宣传某些事情，因为我会失去声誉，那就是一个脆弱的立场。

I want to be as antifragile as possible.

我想尽可能地具有反脆弱性。

And so, by talking about this, I viewed it as a way of inoculating myself against fear of reputation loss.

因此，通过谈论这一点，我将其视为一种让自己免受声誉损失恐惧的方式。

Like, okay, let me push this, I'll ride this horse.

就像，好吧，让我推这个，我会骑这匹马。

Other people might not, but I wanted to remove the stigma for funding purposes, hopefully open up federal funding.

其他人可能不会，但我想消除出于资助目的的耻辱，希望开放联邦资助。

That's starting to happen now from different agencies, and then to focus on access and reduction of cost and insurance reimbursement and so on.

现在不同的机构开始采取这种做法，然后重点关注获取和降低成本以及保险报销等。

So I set a game plan, let's call it maybe five years ago, and I've just been slowly, methodically executing on that since.

所以我制定了一个游戏计划，我们称之为五年前，从那以后我就一直在缓慢、有条理地执行它。

And the reason I chose this to focus on, and I've funded other things, but I've really focused on this.

我选择关注这个的原因，我也资助了其他事情，但我真的专注于这个。

Mental health therapeutics, which is not limited to psychedelics.

心理健康疗法，不仅限于迷幻药。

We can talk about some other things that I find interesting, but psychedelics are, like I said, what makes it attractive, very uncrowded.

我们可以谈论一些我觉得有趣的其他事情，但迷幻剂，就像我说的，使它有吸引力，非常不拥挤。

You can do a lot with a small amount of money.

你可以用很少的钱做很多事情。

Unlike saying cancer research can be very hard.

不像说癌症研究可能非常困难。

Like, okay, you're decabillionaire, great, maybe you can do something interesting, and I'm sure other people could, but if you have 20,000, $50,000, it's going to be hard to make a dent there.

就像，好吧，你是十亿富翁，太棒了，也许你可以做一些有趣的事情，我相信其他人也可以，但如果你有 20,000、50,000 美元，那就很难在这方面有所作为。

In psychedelics, you can actually still make a difference and very high leverage, in part because these compounds seem to challenge much of what we assume to be true about treating mental health.

在迷幻药中，你实际上仍然可以发挥作用，并且具有非常高的影响力，部分原因是这些化合物似乎挑战了我们对于治疗心理健康的假设。

And so that makes for an attractive bet.

因此这是一个有吸引力的赌注。

So, that's where I've been going.

所以，这就是我一直要去的地方。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I'm so glad you shared that with us and that you did that exploration and that you've been spearheading the funding efforts.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，我很高兴您与我们分享这一点，您进行了探索，并且一直在带头开展融资工作。

This podcast has a premium channel that's for raising funds for scientific studies.

该播客有一个高级频道，用于为科学研究筹集资金。

We are in the process now making our first four contributions.

我们现在正在做出我们的前四项贡献。

One of those includes work in Nolan Williams Laboratory at Stanford combining transcranial magnetic stimulation with studies of ibogaine and 5-MeO-DMT, maybe a few other things.

其中之一包括斯坦福大学诺兰·威廉姆斯实验室的工作，将经颅磁刺激与伊博加因和 5-MeO-DMT 的研究相结合，也许还有其他一些东西。

But basically, he's free to do what he wants with the funds.

但基本上，他可以自由地用这些资金做他想做的事。

We trust him to do great work.

我们相信他能做出出色的工作。

But that, again, was inspired by you, right?

但这又是受到你的启发，对吧？

A podcast with a scientific slant.

具有科学倾向的播客。

Certainly this podcast obviously has a scientific slant, but the idea of doing philanthropy for the sorts of work that really deserves funding and exploration.

当然，这个播客显然有科学倾向，但为真正值得资助和探索的工作做慈善的想法。

And by the way, in thinking about other hybrid things that would be fun to do, I mean, I would love to contribute and join those efforts because the work to continue to raise funding for psychedelic studies and all these great laboratories continues, right?

顺便说一句，在考虑其他有趣的混合事情时，我的意思是，我很乐意做出贡献并加入这些努力，因为继续为迷幻剂研究和所有这些伟大的实验室筹集资金的工作仍在继续，对吧？

Tim Ferriss: Yes.

蒂姆·费里斯：是的。

Andrew Huberman: And you've rallied a collection of some pretty powerful people to contribute to this.

Andrew Huberman：您召集了一些非常有权力的人来为此做出贡献。

And I know you've joined arms with Michael Pollan in many ways.

我知道你在很多方面与迈克尔·波伦合作。

Do you want to talk about the fellowships that you guys put together?

你想谈谈你们组织的团契吗？

I find that really cool.

我觉得这真的很酷。

You've got fellowships in the works or maybe already happening at UC Berkeley, is that right?

您已经获得了奖学金，或者可能已经在加州大学伯克利分校获得了奖学金，对吗？

Tim Ferriss: At UC Berkeley, yeah.

蒂姆·费里斯：在加州大学伯克利分校，是的。

So what I try to do, and for people who want to check it out, the name of the foundation is Saisei Foundation.

所以我正在尝试做的事情，对于那些想要了解这一点的人来说，该基金会的名称是 Saisei Foundation。

And let me explain that for a second.

让我解释一下。

So it's S-A-I-S-E-I.

所以是 S-A-I-S-E-I。

So, saiseifoundation.org.

所以，saiseifoundation.org。

I speak Japanese.

我说日语。

I went there as an exchange student and speak, read, and write it, still to this day, pretty well.

我作为交换生去那里，说、读、写它，直到今天仍然很好。

Saisei can mean a lot of things.

Saisei 可以意味着很多东西。

It means rebirth in Japanese.

日语里是重生的意思。

And I've seen what can only be described, or can certainly be described as rebirth in so many clinical outcomes that I thought it was appropriate to use.

我在许多我认为适合使用的临床结果中看到了只能被描述或肯定可以被描述为重生的东西。

And what I've tried to do with the foundation is, I think, do what I'm pretty good at, which is trying to peek around corners and find something to prototype.

我认为，我在这个基础上尝试做的事情是做我非常擅长的事情，那就是尝试四处看看并找到一些原型。

So just like the CGM, and like, all right, how can I.

就像 CGM 一样，好吧，我该怎么办？

Just getting a hold of a Dexcom back then when it was just for type 1 diabetics, was hard.

当时，Dexcom 只针对 1 型糖尿病患者，想要获得它是很困难的。

Andrew Huberman: It was something that you have to actually go under the skin.

Andrew Huberman：这是你必须深入了解的事情。

Tim Ferriss: It's like taking a barbecue prong and putting it under your abdominal skin.

蒂姆·费里斯：这就像把烧烤叉放在腹部皮肤下一样。

It was not comfortable.

这不太舒服。

Andrew Huberman: Can you describe your cortisol level in subjective terms?

Andrew Huberman：您能用主观术语描述您的皮质醇水平吗？

When you're at home, you got this thing and you're about to implant it, and you don't have any precedent.

当你在家的时候，你拿到了这个东西，你就要植入它，而你没有任何先例。

It's not like this is like Levels or one of these other CGMs that are out there.

这与 Levels 或其他 CGM 之一不同。

You stamp the thing in.

你把东西印进去。

You can look on Instagram and see someone else do it.

你可以在 Instagram 上看到其他人这样做。

There's nothing like that.

没有那样的事。

So you're at home wondering if you're going to skewer your liver.

所以你在家里想知道是否要串你的肝脏。

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, I'm at home doing it myself, and I'm sweating like a stuck pig.

蒂姆·费里斯：是的，我自己在家做，我像头被困的猪一样出汗。

I'm sitting there.

我坐在那里。

I'm like, oh, my God, I don't even know if I can.

我想，哦，天哪，我什至不知道我是否可以。

Andrew Huberman: Your girlfriend there, like, to support you in case you die?

Andrew Huberman：你的女朋友在你死的时候会支持你吗？

Tim Ferriss: I think at the time she wasn't because she was squeamish and didn't want to see it.

蒂姆·费里斯：我想当时她没有，因为她很娇气，不想看到它。

And so I'm sitting there at my kitchen table.

所以我坐在厨房的桌子旁。

I remember this.

我记得这个。

God, I'm sweating just thinking about it.

天啊，光是想想我就出汗。

And no videos to watch, and wasn't really supposed to have it in the first place.

没有视频可看，而且一开始就不应该有它。

And the device for readout, by the way, no iPhone, right?

顺便说一下，读出设备没有 iPhone，对吧？

Andrew Huberman: Right.

安德鲁·休伯曼：对。

Tim Ferriss: So it was like this janky pager-looking thing that had a readout that made you think you were playing Pong or something.

蒂姆·费里斯（Tim Ferriss）：所以这就像这个看起来像寻呼机的东西一样，它的读数会让你以为你在玩乒乓球什么的。

It was very--

这是非常——

Andrew Huberman: The green tint screen?

Andrew Huberman：绿色色调屏幕？

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, green tint screen font.

蒂姆·费里斯：是的，绿色屏幕字体。

It was so primitive.

真是太原始了。

And put this thing under my skin, I would cut a Ziploc bag and put it on top and masking tape it to my skin to take showers because otherwise it wouldn't work.

把这个东西放在我的皮肤下，我会剪一个密封袋，把它放在上面，然后用胶带把它贴在我的皮肤上洗澡，否则它就不起作用。

And it was great.

这太棒了。

And I'll just say that I don't use a CGM.

我只想说我不使用 CGM。

Andrew Huberman: It was great.

安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。

You realize you said it was great.

你意识到你说这很棒。

"I was sweating and I was afraid."

“我满头大汗，我很害怕。”

Tim Ferriss: I did.

蒂姆·费里斯：我做到了。

I did say it was great because it gave me a lot of insight.

我确实说这很棒，因为它给了我很多见解。

Okay.

好的。

And then once I had the insight over a course of a handful of weeks, then I felt like I didn't really need it anymore.

然后，一旦我在几周的过程中获得了洞察力，我就觉得我不再需要它了。

And that was also just a heavy tax to pay.

而且这还只是一笔沉重的税负。

You have to wear that thing around, look like you have, what is it called?

你必须随身携带那个东西，看起来像你有，它叫什么？

A colostomy bag or something.

结肠造口袋什么的。

It was big, it was bulky.

它很大，很笨重。

So just like I did that, I wanted to do a proof of concept, right.

就像我所做的那样，我想做一个概念验证，对吧。

The goal was, can I use this for healthy, normal applications?

目标是，我可以将其用于健康、正常的应用吗？

Will the insights be actionable?

这些见解是否具有可操作性？

And they were, lo and behold.

你瞧，他们确实是这样。

Similarly with the foundation, since I'm dealing with smaller amounts of money, I'm not in the billionaire club by any stretch of the imagination, and science can be expensive.

与基金会类似，由于我处理的资金数额较小，所以无论怎么想，我都不属于亿万富翁俱乐部，而且科学可能很昂贵。

I'm looking for small bets.

我正在寻找小赌注。

Where can I pilot something that, if successful, will be emulated or can be scaled, say.

例如，我可以在哪里试点一些如果成功的话将被模仿或可以扩展的东西。

In the crowdfunding for the Hopkins Treatment-Resistant Depression pilot study, we ended up exceeding the goal.

在霍普金斯大学难治性抑郁症试点研究的众筹中，我们最终超出了目标。

They were able to recruit more subjects.

他们能够招募更多的受试者。

In the case of UC Berkeley, Michael Pollan and I partnered on this, and my foundation funded it.

就加州大学伯克利分校而言，迈克尔·波伦和我在这方面进行了合作，我的基金会也为其提供了资助。

The Ferriss — UC Berkeley Journalism Fellowship, Psychedelic Journalism Fellowship, is providing funding to up-and-coming journalists who want to focus on psychedelics as their beat, which to this date has not been financially feasible.

费里斯-加州大学伯克利分校新闻奖学金、迷幻新闻奖学金正在为那些希望以迷幻剂为主题的新晋记者提供资金，但迄今为止这在经济上还不可行。

You just don't have the space to do really long-form investigative work.

你只是没有空间进行真正的长期调查工作。

The hope being that these journalists can apply their skills and their dedication to examining different facets of the psychedelic ecosystem, therapeutic potential, regulatory issues, etc. in a way that can shape and inform national and international discourse in a very critical way, because these things are not a panacea.

希望这些记者能够运用他们的技能和奉献精神来研究迷幻生态系统的不同方面、治疗潜力、监管问题等，以一种非常批判性的方式塑造和告知国内和国际话语，因为这些东西不是万能药。

There's a lot of claims that are made about these that are totally unbacked by any type of science, and there are a lot of charlatans.

有很多关于这些的说法完全没有任何科学依据，而且有很多江湖骗子。

And so I wanted to also invite really competent, really good journalists to the table who might want to watch for bad actors.

因此，我还想邀请真正有能力、真正优秀的记者参加会议，他们可能想监视坏演员。

I think that's really important.

我认为这非常重要。

And so this fellowship has been awarding fellows with these grants, and I think it's a relatively small amount of money.

因此，该奖学金一直向研究员提供这些补助金，我认为这是一笔相对较小的金额。

It's like $10,000 per, something like that.

好像每人10,000美元，类似的东西。

But the outcomes have been amazing.

但结果却是惊人的。

We had a huge, I want to say it was 7000-word piece that was one of the main features in Rolling Stone magazine, huge piece in National Geographic, focused on iboga and fair trade, and some of the implications for local harvesting and/or overharvesting.

我们有一篇巨大的文章，我想说这是 7000 字的文章，是《滚石》杂志的主要特色之一，也是《国家地理》杂志的主要专题之一，重点关注伊博加和公平贸易，以及对当地采伐和/或过度采伐的一些影响。

All the dynamics present in that which I think has some incredible promise for particular forms of opioid use, opioid use disorder, in particular.

我认为其中存在的所有动态对于特定形式的阿片类药物使用，特别是阿片类药物使用障碍具有一些令人难以置信的前景。

But that has been a huge success.

但这已经取得了巨大的成功。

So the hope is that other journalism schools will say, that's a great idea, and I will have de-risked it for some other philanthropist or foundation or government, say, director at an agency, to say, okay, we'll greenlight that, because I've done it and it's been received very well and it's had a real impact on how things are moving along.

因此，希望其他新闻学院会说，这是一个好主意，我会降低风险，让其他慈善家、基金会或政府（比如某个机构的主管）说，好吧，我们会批准这个，因为我已经做到了，而且反响很好，对事情的进展产生了真正的影响。

Another one would be, say, at Harvard, POPLAR, this is at Harvard Law School, is the first dedicated team focused on law, policy and regulation related to psychedelics from a legal perspective.

另一个是，比如说，在哈佛大学，POPLAR，这是在哈佛法学院，是第一个从法律角度专注于与致幻剂相关的法律、政策和监管的专门团队。

Andrew Huberman: Super important.

安德鲁·休伯曼：非常重要。

Tim Ferriss: Super important.

蒂姆·费里斯：非常重要。

Super, super important.

超级超级重要。

Also another pilot, let's just call it proof of concept, that Saisei Foundation funded was helping to develop curricula for, I think it was Yale, Johns Hopkins and NYU, effectively an accreditation or a module that they could put into their existing psychiatry MD programs such that people could develop the skills necessary and the understanding necessary to administer psychedelic-assisted therapies if and when they become legal prescribable.

还有另一个试点，让我们称之为概念验证，Saisei 基金会资助的项目正在帮助开发课程，我认为是耶鲁大学、约翰霍普金斯大学和纽约大学，实际上是一个认证或一个模块，他们可以将其放入现有的精神病学医学博士项目中，以便人们可以培养必要的技能和必要的理解，以便在迷幻辅助疗法成为合法处方时进行管理。

Andrew Huberman: Which if I understand correctly, it sounds like within the next twelve to 24 months, MDMA-assisted psychotherapy for the treatment of trauma is likely to become legal, in the hands of psychiatrists at least, and maybe certain clinical psychologists as well.

Andrew Huberman：如果我理解正确的话，听起来在未来 12 到 24 个月内，用于治疗创伤的 MDMA 辅助心理治疗可能会变得合法，至少在精神科医生手中，也许在某些临床心理学家手中也是如此。

In the U.S. is that right — through the efforts of the MAPS group.

在美国，这是正确的——通过 MAPS 小组的努力。

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, through the efforts of maps.org and Rick Doblin and many others, that is the tip of the spear.

Tim Ferriss：是的，通过maps.org 和Rick Doblin 以及其他许多人的努力，这就是矛尖。

So I think anyone who's interested in psychedelics should have a vested interest in supporting those efforts.

所以我认为任何对迷幻药感兴趣的人都应该有支持这些努力的既得利益。

Not because we know everything works, I want to be clear.

并不是因为我们知道一切正常，我想澄清一下。

Not because we know a priori that all these things do all the things.

并不是因为我们先验地知道所有这些事情都会做所有事情。

No. But if MDMA fails, it's going to be very hard to draft.

不会。但如果 MDMA 失败，起草起来就会非常困难。

It'll be impossible to draft on that with combines that are more difficult to administer, like psilocybin, which would be next in line for alcohol use disorder, also major depressive disorder.

不可能用更难管理的组合药物来起草，比如裸盖菇素，它是下一个治疗酒精使用障碍和重度抑郁症的药物。

So I really feel that just like everything I've talked about, whether it's networking, putting together "4-Hour Body," or trying to change national policy and, say, reclassification of these compounds, getting them out of Schedule 1 to some extent, you want to break it down into its constituent pieces.

所以我真的觉得，就像我所谈论的一切一样，无论是网络、整合“4 小时身体”，还是试图改变国家政策，比如对这些化合物进行重新分类，在某种程度上将它们从附表 1 中剔除，你都想将其分解为各个组成部分。

You want to do an 80/20 analysis, figure out what the critical few are, and then put them in a logical sequence and execute the plan.

您想要进行 80/20 分析，找出关键的几个是什么，然后将它们按逻辑顺序排列并执行计划。

One of the greatest weaknesses in the psychedelic ecosystem is there are a lot of people who just want to do all the things and save all the people and all the animals and all the places all at once.

迷幻生态系统的最大弱点之一是有很多人只想同时做所有的事情并拯救所有的人和所有的动物和所有的地方。

And that just doesn't work very well.

但这效果不太好。

There are also some really good people who are executing, and we could talk about the for-profit side and so on.

还有一些非常优秀的人在执行，我们可以谈论营利方面等等。

But I've been very pleased with the outcomes that Saisei Foundation has been able to achieve with very limited money.

但我对 Saisei 基金会以非常有限的资金取得的成果感到非常满意。

I'm prouder of those outcomes than I am of the startup record, and the startup record is pretty good, and it's the same lens, I'm using the same filters and the same approach, which is kind of what I'm always looking for.

我对这些结果比对启动记录更感到自豪，启动记录非常好，而且是相同的镜头，我使用相同的滤镜和相同的方法，这正是我一直在寻找的。

I'm looking for stuff that'll translate across fields if possible.

如果可能的话，我正在寻找可以跨领域翻译的东西。

And then you mentioned one like TMS, I think.

然后你提到了像 TMS 这样的一个，我想。

TMS, very interesting.

TMS，很有趣。

Andrew Huberman: Transcranial magnetic stimulation.

安德鲁·休伯曼：经颅磁刺激。

Which at one point was more commonly used to inhibit specific brain areas.

在某一时刻，它更常用于抑制特定的大脑区域。

This is a noninvasive technique.

这是一种非侵入性技术。

I've had it done where it's over my motor cortex, and you're tapping your finger and all of a sudden you can't tap your fingers.

我已经在我的运动皮层上方完成了它，当你敲击你的手指时，突然你不能敲击你的手指了。

It's pretty eerie.

这真是太诡异了。

But now it can be used to stimulate at particular frequencies, enhance neuroplasticity, and in combination with psychedelics, it's kind of the burning question now, can you get a synergistic effect of TMS and psychedelics?

但现在它可以用于特定频率的刺激，增强神经可塑性，并且与迷幻药结合使用，现在是一个紧迫的问题，TMS 和迷幻药能否获得协同效应？

Maybe not just during the psilocybin or iboga journey.

也许不仅仅是在裸盖菇素或伊博加之旅中。

But in the days and weeks after, when we know for sure a lot of plasticity is still occurring.

但在接下来的几天和几周里，当我们确信大量的可塑性仍在发生时。

So keep the plasticity on board or accelerate it.

因此，要保持可塑性，或者加速它。

Tim Ferriss: Yeah.

蒂姆·费里斯：是的。

So TMS also is a monotherapy.

所以 TMS 也是一种单一疗法。

Very interesting to me for depression, anxiety, even substance use disorders.

我对抑郁症、焦虑症，甚至药物滥用障碍非常感兴趣。

Super interesting.

超级有趣。

And there are many different protocols, all sorts of different technology, I would say low-intensity or low-power ultrasound, also super interesting for various applications, potentially to addiction.

有许多不同的协议，各种不同的技术，我想说的是低强度或低功率超声波，对于各种应用也非常有趣，可能会让人上瘾。

So I'm not, to be clear, a card-carrying evangelist for psychedelics.

所以，明确地说，我并不是一个名副其实的迷幻药传播者。

I am a proponent of looking for high-leverage, uncrowded bets with limited downside, and testing them out.

我支持寻找高杠杆、不拥挤且下行空间有限的赌注，并进行测试。

And very optimistic about psychedelics.

并且对迷幻药非常乐观。

If anyone listening has a family history of, say, schizophrenia, borderline personality disorder, which this is being very simplistic, but categorize or describe as more sort of chaotic conditions compared to hyper-rigid conditions like an OCD or anorexia nervosa, chronic depression, etc. then we can talk about why some of these psychedelics, at least some of the classical psychedelics, seem to have cross efficacy with multiple conditions.

如果听众有精神分裂症、边缘性人格障碍等家族病史，这是非常简单化的，但与强迫症或神经性厌食症、慢性抑郁症等超僵化病症相比，将其归类或描述为更混乱的病症。那么我们可以讨论为什么其中一些迷幻药，至少是一些经典迷幻药，似乎对多种病症具有交叉功效。

But psychedelics seem very helpful for certain types of hyper rigidity.

但迷幻药似乎对某些类型的过度僵硬非常有帮助。

When you get into schizophrenia and borderline personality disorder, they can be really heavily contraindicated, not to say that they cause those conditions, but they can precipitate the onset of those symptoms, and for that reason can be very destabilizing and dangerous for certain people.

当你患上精神分裂症和边缘性人格障碍时，它们可能确实是严重禁忌的，并不是说它们会导致这些症状，而是它们会加速这些症状的发作，因此对某些人来说可能非常不稳定和危险。

However, that's where something like metabolic psychiatry comes in, and the use of ketosis and the ketogenic diet, which appears to be very effective in some patients for that grouping of, say, more chaotic conditions, which is very exciting.

然而，这就是代谢精神病学之类的东西的用武之地，以及酮症和生酮饮食的使用，这似乎对某些患者非常有效，例如，对于更混乱的情况，这是非常令人兴奋的。

So I'm interested in any tools that are off the beaten path that seem to raise interesting questions that have not been answered in a satisfying way yet in medicine.

因此，我对任何不寻常的工具都感兴趣，这些工具似乎提出了有趣的问题，而这些问题在医学上尚未得到令人满意的答案。

And I think we're still largely in the dark ages with respect to psychiatry.

我认为就精神病学而言，我们很大程度上仍处于黑暗时代。

Andrew Huberman: I think the best psychiatrists would agree with you.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为最好的精神病学家会同意你的观点。

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, and the best psychiatrists and the best scientists and the best fill-in-the-blank are acutely aware of the limitations of our current methods and the limitations of our current knowledge.

蒂姆·费里斯：是的，最好的精神病学家、最好的科学家和最好的填空题都敏锐地意识到我们当前方法的局限性和我们当前知识的局限性。

So I think the mark of a good thinker, the mark of a good scientist, the mark of a good fill-in-the-blank anything, is someone who says, I have no idea, or we have no idea, a lot.

所以我认为一个好的思想家的标志，一个好的科学家的标志，一个好的填空题的标志，就是有人说，我不知道，或者我们不知道，很多。

Andrew Huberman: And hopefully they also say, let's go figure it out, or try to try some things.

Andrew Huberman：希望他们也会说，让我们去弄清楚，或者尝试尝试一些事情。

And I really want to thank you for sharing that narrative, especially because it makes clear that you brought the same systematic process of using and asking excellent questions to arrive at solutions, to arrive at more questions, to fund areas of inquiry and to do it all in this really structured way, as you said, from policy all the way down to how many grams or X of some substance somebody might take.

我真的很想感谢你分享这个故事，特别是因为它清楚地表明你采用了相同的系统过程，使用和提出优秀的问题来得出解决方案，得出更多问题，为调查领域提供资金，并以这种真正结构化的方式完成这一切，正如你所说，从政策一直到某人可能服用多少克或X的某种物质。

I mean, I think Matthew Johnson's laboratory at Hopkins, Roland Griffiths, Robin Carhart-Harris at UCSF, Nolan Williams, the MAPS group.

我的意思是，我认为霍普金斯大学的马修·约翰逊实验室、罗兰·格里菲斯、加州大学旧金山分校的罗宾·卡哈特-哈里斯、诺兰·威廉姆斯和 MAPS 小组。

Tim Ferriss: Rick Doblin, Peter Hendrix at University of Alabama looking at cocaine addiction, other things.

蒂姆·费里斯（Tim Ferriss）：阿拉巴马大学的里克·多布林（Rick Doblin）和彼得·亨德里克斯（Peter Hendrix）正在研究可卡因成瘾等问题。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, you, Michael Pollan.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，你，迈克尔·波伦。

I'm leaving some names out here and I don't want to take anything away from the classic, as they're called, explorers of psychedelics and writers about psychedelics, but we are in the moment of a renaissance now and it's important that this have a lot of fuel.

我在这里留下了一些名字，我不想从经典中夺走任何东西，正如他们所说的那样，迷幻药的探索者和迷幻药的作家，但我们现在正处于文艺复兴的时刻，重要的是要有大量的燃料。

So we'll put a link to your philanthropy efforts and the journalism fellowships as well, because I think there's going to be a lot of interest there and I'm huge supporter of what you're doing, as you know.

因此，我们也会添加您的慈善事业和新闻奖学金的链接，因为我认为会有很多人对此感兴趣，而且如您所知，我非常支持您正在做的事情。

And I just think it's the way great science and clinical progress is made.

我只是认为这是取得伟大科学和临床进步的方式。

Tim Ferriss: Thanks, Andrew.

蒂姆·费里斯：谢谢，安德鲁。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

Which brings me to another parallel topic.

这让我想到了另一个平行的话题。

It used to be that meditation and psychedelics were nested in the same territory.

过去，冥想和迷幻药是同一领域的。

This would be in the late '60s, early '70s, the birth of places like Esalen, etc. with the consequence of the dual exploration of those things.

这将是在 60 年代末、70 年代初，像 Esalen 等地方的诞生，也是对这些事物的双重探索的结果。

Meditation sort of escaped from the psychedelics umbrella and vice versa starting sometime in the mid-2000s, when neuroimaging became a little bit more accessible.

从 2000 年代中期开始，冥想有点脱离了迷幻药的保护伞，反之亦然，当时神经影像学变得更加容易获得。

And I think nowadays if you told anybody, okay, meditation is good for you, it can help ratchet down your anxiety, give more self-awareness, improve sleep, and on and on, maybe even give some insight into consciousness.

我想现在如果你告诉任何人，好吧，冥想对你有好处，它可以帮助减轻你的焦虑，增强自我意识，改善睡眠等等，甚至可能让你对意识有一些洞察。

No one's going to balk.

没有人会犹豫。

There's just a lot of studies.

只是有很多研究。

There are thousands of studies.

有数千项研究。

My laboratory has done a few of them.

我的实验室已经完成了其中一些。

There are other laboratories who have done far more.

还有其他实验室做得更多。

The book "Altered Traits" is the one that comes to mind, and the group out of Wisconsin was early to the game on this.

我首先想到的是《改变的特征》一书，来自威斯康星州的团队很早就参与了这方面的研究。

In any event, you talked about TM.

无论如何，你谈到了TM。

I'm curious, from a practical standpoint, do you still meditate daily?

我很好奇，从实际的角度来看，你还每天冥想吗？

Do you do meditation retreats?

你进行冥想静修吗？

What sorts of meditative practices do you have?

你有哪些冥想练习？

Because I realize this can be done walking, writing is its own form of meditation.

因为我意识到这可以通过步行来完成，写作本身就是一种冥想形式。

What sorts of formal practices do you still engage in now?

您现在仍在从事哪些正式实践？

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, I do 10 to 20 minutes in the morning.

Tim Ferriss：是的，我早上锻炼 10 到 20 分钟。

So I am not currently doing the TM, twice daily, 20 minutes.

所以我目前没有做TM，每天两次，20分钟。

I think that would be better for me, probably.

我认为这对我来说可能更好。

Andrew Huberman: Do you set a clock?

安德鲁·休伯曼：你设置时钟吗？

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, I'll set a clock.

蒂姆·费里斯：是的，我会设置一个时钟。

Which would be more of the concentration practice of, say, a TM, where you're repeating a mantra.

这更像是一种集中练习，比如说，TM，你在重复一个咒语。

Honestly, it could be any, in my opinion, some TM purists will balk at this, but it could be really any nonsense syllable.

老实说，在我看来，它可能是任何一个，一些 TM 纯粹主义者会对此犹豫不决，但它实际上可能是任何无意义的音节。

It could be a word, although I think something without any attached meaning is probably more beneficial for a host of reasons.

它可能是一个词，尽管我认为出于多种原因，没有任何附加含义的东西可能更有益。

So it could be a concentration practice with 20 minutes of sitting.

所以这可能是坐 20 分钟的集中练习。

It might also be a guided meditation, and I have no vested interest in this app but I think the Waking Up app by Sam Harris is fantastic.

它也可能是一个引导冥想，我对这个应用程序没有既得利益，但我认为 Sam Harris 的“Waking Up”应用程序非常棒。

I have used the introductory course, which is Sam leading you through, my catnip, which is a logical progression of skill development from day one, two, three and forward.

我使用了入门课程，由 Sam 带领您完成，我的猫薄荷，这是从第一天、第二天、第三天及以后的技能发展的逻辑进程。

I have gone through that course multiple times when I'm getting back on the horse for meditation, as a bit of a reboot.

当我重新骑上冥想时，我已经多次完成了这个课程，作为一种重新启动。

Once you develop, I think, a certain degree of awareness and mindfulness, I do think there are other activities that probably allow you the parallel experience of doing one thing while experiencing some of the benefits of meditation.

我认为，一旦你发展了一定程度的意识和正念，我确实认为还有其他活动可能会让你在做一件事的同时体验冥想的一些好处。

For me, I wonder at times, are the benefits of meditation the concentration practice itself?

对我来说，有时我想知道，冥想的好处是专注练习本身吗？

Is it just sitting still with my eyes closed, down-regulating my system a little bit, activating my parasympathetic and not rushing or doing anything for 20 minutes?

是不是只是闭着眼睛静静地坐着，稍微下调我的系统，激活我的副交感神经，在 20 分钟内不着急或做任何事情？

Is that it?

是这样吗？

Maybe.

或许。

Is it simply correcting my posture for 20 minutes?

仅仅是纠正姿势20分钟吗？

How do I weight these different inputs?

我如何权衡这些不同的输入？

And the short answer is, you probably don't need to know.

简而言之，您可能不需要知道。

But I have found that spending time in silence in nature without anything to do, disallowing myself from doing things, no notetaking, no reading, etc. and spending...

但我发现，在大自然中默默地度过一段无事可做的时光，不允许自己做事，不做笔记，不读书等等，花...

I have spent a number of extended fasts in nature, like water, only by myself.

我在大自然中度过了许多长时间的禁食，就像水一样，只有我一个人。

No talking, no reading, no writing.

不说话，不读书，不写作。

Andrew Huberman: What's extended?

Andrew Huberman：延长了什么？

Tim Ferriss: Seven days, generally.

蒂姆·费里斯：一般来说是七天。

Andrew Huberman: Wow.

安德鲁·休伯曼：哇。

So you're camping in nature with just water?

那么您在大自然中露营时只用水吗？

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, that's it.

蒂姆·费里斯：是的，就是这样。

By myself.

就我自己而言。

And there are risks associated with that, right.

与此相关的风险是存在的，对吧。

You got to be careful, not stupid about it, but that does a lot for me with some persistent benefits.

你必须小心，不要愚蠢，但这对我有很多好处，有一些持久的好处。

Andrew Huberman: Are there some favorite places that you've gone into nature?

Andrew Huberman：有没有一些你最喜欢去大自然的地方？

It doesn't have to be too fast.

它不必太快。

Like, for instance, I'm a big fan of some of the national parks up in the Pacific Northwest because it's like being transported to a different planet.

举例来说，我非常喜欢太平洋西北地区的一些国家公园，因为这就像被运送到另一个星球一样。

Yosemite is obviously amazing, but any favorite spots where — people won't go looking for you there, don't worry.

优胜美地显然是令人惊叹的，但任何最喜欢的地方——人们不会去那里寻找你，不用担心。

Tim Ferriss: Yeah.

蒂姆·费里斯：是的。

Andrew Huberman: You live in Austin all the time.

Andrew Huberman：你一直住在奥斯汀。

Tim Ferriss: That's right.

蒂姆·费里斯：没错。

Yeah.

是的。

So I would say Colorado, Utah, New Mexico, spending time in mountains, around rivers, lakes, I find very therapeutic and just gorgeous.

所以我想说科罗拉多州、犹他州、新墨西哥州，在山区、河流、湖泊周围度过时光，我发现非常有治疗作用，而且非常美丽。

I do think we suffer from awe-deficiency disorder, a bit of ADD when we're trapped in the mundane for too long with too much distraction, with too many to-dos, with too many relationships, and there's no space for awe there.

我确实认为我们患有敬畏缺乏症，当我们被困在平凡的事物中太久，有太多的分心，有太多的待办事项，有太多的关系，而那里没有敬畏的空间时，就会有点ADD。

There isn't the room necessary.

没有必要的房间。

Awe isn't, from my perspective, generally, a quick hit that you get in the 30 seconds between using two apps.

从我的角度来看，敬畏感通常并不是在使用两个应用程序之间的 30 秒内突然产生的。

There's more breathing room required for a genuine, transcendent experience of awe.

真正的、超然的敬畏体验需要更多的喘息空间。

So I try to, on a yearly basis, as one of my top priorities, block out these weeks of time in nature.

因此，我每年都会尝试将这几周的时间花在大自然中，作为我的首要任务之一。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, last year was the first year I did that.

Andrew Huberman：是的，去年是我这样做的第一年。

I went out to Colorado in August and just took daily hikes.

我八月份去了科罗拉多州，每天都徒步旅行。

I stayed in a hotel.

我住在一家旅馆里。

I'm not as beastie as you, doing water fast.

我不像你那么野兽，喝水很快。

I was eating every day, but it was spectacular.

我每天都在吃，但那真是太棒了。

One thing I noticed, and I'd like to know your process on, how do you handle going back into life?

我注意到一件事，我想知道你的进展情况，你如何处理重返生活？

Tim Ferriss: Great question.

蒂姆·费里斯：好问题。

Andrew Huberman: Because those days were and are amazing, right?

安德鲁·休伯曼：因为那些日子过去和现在都很棒，对吧？

Detached.

分离。

And maybe one text message here or there in between hikes or something, and then you just really clued in.

也许在徒步旅行或其他什么事情的间隙，这里或那里发一条短信，然后你就真的明白了。

Even the process of watching a show at night, like one felt so rich and enough — so I wasn't as aesthetic as you and really cleaned all the clutter.

就连晚上看节目的过程，都感觉很丰富很够了——所以我没有你那么审美，真的把杂乱都清理干净了。

But once you return to life, it's almost like being awash in demands.

但一旦你回到生活中，你就会感觉自己被各种要求淹没了。

And I can see from a place of more equanimity how one could make better choices.

我可以从更加平静的角度看到人们如何做出更好的选择。

But how do you handle those transitions?

但你如何处理这些转变呢？

Tim Ferriss: The reentry.

蒂姆·费里斯：重返大气层。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

Tim Ferriss: So before getting to the reentry, I think it might make sense for me to talk about what comes before.

蒂姆·费里斯：所以在进入重返大气层之前，我认为我有必要谈谈之前发生的事情。

So let's say it's like pre, during, post.

所以我们可以说这就像事前、事中、事后。

Part of the reason I do these one-week or longer periods off the grid is because it forces me to put better systems in place.

我之所以进行为期一周或更长时间的断电，部分原因是它迫使我建立更好的系统。

So there's the benefit that you derive from, say, that week, and I have three weeks coming up right after this interview where I'm going to be off the grid.

所以，比如说，那一周你会得到一些好处，而在这次采访之后，我将有三周的时间远离网络。

To set myself up for three weeks off the grid.

让自己脱离电网三个星期。

I have a team, I have the podcast.

我有一个团队，我有播客。

I have a lot of things that are in motion at any given point in time.

我有很多事情在任何特定的时间点都在进行中。

If you disappear for, say, a two-to-four-week period, generally you cannot let the whole house catch on fire, then come back and put it out effectively, which means you need to put some policies and rules and so on in place in advance, and there's a carryover effect that has a host of benefits and makes things smoother for the reentry.

如果你消失了，比如说两到四个星期，一般你不能让整个房子着火了，然后回来把火有效地扑灭，这意味着你需要提前制定一些政策和规则等等，而且有一个遗留效应，有很多好处，让重返更加顺利。

So they're related.

所以它们是相关的。

Like the more you set up the pre, the easier the post is going to be.

就像你在前文中设置得越多，后文就会越容易。

And then you have this beautiful, expansive experience in nature, whatever it might be, whether you're making it a suffer-fest like I do, or at a hotel at night.

然后你就会在大自然中获得这种美丽、广阔的体验，无论它是什么，无论你是像我一样把它变成一场痛苦的盛宴，还是晚上在酒店。

Either way, these things can work, and nature in and of itself is super helpful.

不管怎样，这些东西都能发挥作用，而且大自然本身就非常有帮助。

I do think that a lot of the time we like to imagine, because we're driven, smart, accomplished people, that our problems are very complex.

我确实认为，很多时候我们喜欢想象，因为我们是有动力、聪明、有成就的人，所以我们的问题非常复杂。

And at the end of the day, it's like you just need some time in nature and a cold shower and some fucking macadamia nuts and you'll be fine.

一天结束时，就像你只需要一些时间在大自然中，洗个冷水澡，吃点他妈的澳洲坚果，你就会没事的。

You don't need to solve all the existential dilemmas of humankind, actually, or fancy pharmaceuticals.

实际上，你不需要解决人类所有的生存困境，也不需要花哨的药物。

So you have this experience over this week, and what I will do then is set, at least a, let's call it integration period of two to three days, where I will slowly edge back into my previous routine.

所以你在这周有了这样的经历，然后我要做的事情就已经确定了，至少有一个，让我们称之为两到三天的整合期，在那里我会慢慢地回到以前的例行公事。

I will not, within 12 hours of getting back to so-called civilization, have a day full of calls or meetings.

我不会在回到所谓文明的12小时内度过充满电话或会议的一天。

I will not do that.

我不会那样做。

It's too much of a shock to the system, and I think it robs you of a tail end of benefits, which would also be the case with, say, fast or ketogenic diet or any number of interventions.

这对系统来说太大了，我认为它会剥夺你的尾部好处，这也适用于禁食或生酮饮食或任何数量的干预措施。

You can squeeze out a long tail of benefits if you make a handful of changes.

如果你做出一些改变，你就可以挤出长尾的好处。

For instance, after an extended fast, what if you started with a subcaloric ketogenic diet for a few days?

例如，在长时间禁食后，如果您开始几天的低热量生酮饮食会怎么样？

You get to extend some of the benefits, as opposed to going straight back to, say, a diet that includes a lot of carbohydrates.

你可以延长一些好处，而不是直接回到含有大量碳水化合物的饮食。

Similarly, when you create more of a vacuum, more space for awe, insight, reflection, recovery, I think you're doing yourself a disservice if you jump from park into sixth gear.

同样，当你创造更多的真空、更多的敬畏、洞察、反思、恢复的空间时，我认为如果你从停车档跳到第六档，你就是在伤害自己。

So I plan for that, and it's a function of scheduling.

所以我为此做了计划，这是日程安排的一个功能。

I also have a predictable weekly schedule, so I tend to schedule podcast recordings on Mondays and Fridays in preparation for an extended trip.

我也有一个可预测的每周时间表，所以我倾向于在周一和周五安排播客录制，为长途旅行做准备。

I will batch a lot of similar activities that we have, say, a bunch of episodes in the bank that are prescheduled.

我将批量处理许多类似的活动，例如银行中预先安排的一系列活动。

Everything is figured out in advance, and over time, the more you take these breaks, the better your systems become and the more liberated you are from the day-to-day.

一切都是事先想好的，随着时间的推移，你休息的时间越多，你的系统就会变得越好，你从日常事务中解放出来就越多。

Which means when you get back, you also don't need to rush as much into hyperactivity.

这意味着当你回来时，你也不需要那么急于过度活跃。

And if you do, you know that that is more from a compulsivity than from a necessity.

如果你这样做了，你就会知道这更多的是出于强迫性而不是出于必然性。

Andrew Huberman: While you're on these nature retreats, are you writing on a daily basis?

安德鲁·休伯曼：当您在这些自然静修处时，您每天都在写作吗？

Are you just thinking and allowing thoughts to enter and leave your system?

你只是在思考并允许思想进出你的系统吗？

Tim Ferriss: Depends on the retreat.

蒂姆·费里斯：取决于撤退。

So sometimes I'm writing, but writing, I think, can underscore for me a desire to be compulsively productive.

所以有时我会写作，但我认为写作可以强调我对高效工作的渴望。

And I think that is inversely correlated to my happiness or sense of well-being a lot of the time.

我认为很多时候这与我的幸福感或幸福感成反比。

So there are many areas in my life now.

所以现在我的生活中有很多领域。

So if you were to ask, what has changed significantly since the time that you wrote "The 4-Hour Body," I would say that rather than looking for areas to optimize, I am looking where I can very deliberately de-optimize certain areas to increase sense of well-being.

因此，如果你问，自你写《4 小时身体》以来发生了哪些显着变化，我会说，我不是寻找需要优化的领域，而是寻找可以非常刻意地取消优化某些领域以增加幸福感的地方。

Where can I de-optimize?

我可以在哪里取消优化？

Where can I stop measuring?

我可以在哪里停止测量？

Where can I stop reading books?

哪里可以停止读书？

Which areas can I ignore completely?

哪些方面是我可以完全忽略的？

What types of information can I just excise from my life altogether for a period of time?

在一段时间内我可以从生活中完全删除哪些类型的信息？

Delete Twitter?

删除推特？

Stop reading about books in X related to, say, AI or whatever it might be?

停止阅读 X 中与人工智能或其他任何相关的书籍吗？

Where can I deoptimize selectively to sort of optimize the whole?

我可以在哪里选择性地取消优化以优化整体？

Does that make sense?

这有道理吗？

Andrew Huberman: Makes good sense, yeah.

Andrew Huberman： 是的，很有道理。

Tim Ferriss: And before we started recording, I gave you a book, which is a short collection of poetry by Haleh Liza Gafori, which is called "Gold." It's a collection of Rumi poetry.

蒂姆·费里斯：在我们开始录音之前，我给了你一本书，这是哈勒·丽莎·加福里 (Haleh Liza Gafori) 的短诗集，被称为“黄金”。这是一本鲁米诗集。

Reading poetry is an activity, almost by definition, which is the antithesis of optimization.

阅读诗歌是一种活动，几乎从定义上来说，它是优化的对立面。

So I've tried to also integrate more of those activities into my life.

所以我也尝试将更多这些活动融入我的生活中。

And this relates to your question, because there are times when I will just force myself to sit on my goddamn hands and not write, not read, just do the thing that is so uncomfortable sometimes, which is just sitting there with yourself.

这与你的问题有关，因为有时我会强迫自己坐在我该死的手上，不写，不读，只是做有时很不舒服的事情，就是和自己坐在那里。

Andrew Huberman: It can be incredibly uncomfortable, in part because of the fear that it could become comfortable, especially for proactive people with a strong, to use Paul Conti's words, generative drive, Tim Ferriss : which is a good thing.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：这可能会令人难以置信的不舒服，部分原因是担心它会变得舒适，特别是对于积极主动的人来说，用保罗·康蒂的话来说，生成驱动力，蒂姆·费里斯：这是一件好事。

Tim Ferriss: I believe it's a good thing, and it can be a good thing.

蒂姆·费里斯：我相信这是一件好事，而且可能是一件好事。

It can indicate really incredible adaptations.

它可以表明真正令人难以置信的适应。

It can also sometimes, I think, indicate maladaptations.

我认为，有时它也可能表明适应不良。

And so I think it's helpful to take a break from that generative drive, or at least just put it in park position to see if that generative drive is perhaps indicative of you leaning towards something in a healthy, proactive way versus running from something in a long-term destructive way.

因此，我认为从生成驱动力中休息一下是有帮助的，或者至少将其置于静止状态，看看生成驱动力是否表明你倾向于以健康、积极的方式倾向于某些事物，而不是以长期破坏性的方式逃避某些事物。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, well, and I think Paul would say that part of the generative drive process is peace, not necessarily even as a still state, but being able to experience peace even in the transitions.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，嗯，我认为保罗会说，生成驱动过程的一部分是和平，即使在静止状态下也不一定，但即使在过渡中也能够体验和平。

And there's a lot more to say about that, and he would say it far better than I ever would.

关于这一点还有很多话要说，他会说得比我好得多。

So I'll leave it at that.

所以我就这样吧。

Tim Ferriss: For people who have the option, getting in nature, it doesn't have to be all day, every day on a water fast.

蒂姆·费里斯：对于那些可以选择亲近大自然的人来说，不必整天、每天都禁水。

I just take certain things to an extreme because that's who I am.

我只是把某些事情发挥到极致，因为这就是我。

Andrew Huberman: But sorry, when you say water fast, that means fasting with water.

安德鲁·休伯曼：但是抱歉，当你说禁水时，这意味着禁水。

Tim Ferriss: Right.

蒂姆·费里斯：对。

Andrew Huberman: Fasting, but drinking water.

Andrew Huberman：禁食，但喝水。

Tim Ferriss: It just means you're allowed to have water and nothing else.

蒂姆·费里斯：这只是意味着你只能喝水，不能喝其他东西。

Andrew Huberman: For a long time I thought it meant that you're not drinking water.

安德鲁·休伯曼：很长一段时间我认为这意味着你没有喝水。

Tim Ferriss: Oh yeah, no, don't do that.

蒂姆·费里斯：哦，是的，不，不要那样做。

Andrew Huberman: Some people do that, right?

Andrew Huberman：有些人这样做，对吗？

They do these crazy food-water fasts as a way...

他们进行这些疯狂的食物-水禁食作为一种方式......

I think they believe it clears senescent cells or something, but probably clears a lot more than just senescent cells.

我认为他们相信它可以清除衰老细胞或其他东西，但可能清除的不仅仅是衰老细胞。

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, there might be something to it.

蒂姆·费里斯：是的，可能有一些东西。

I mean, look, there are people who recycle by drinking their own urine.

我的意思是，看，有些人通过喝自己的尿液来回收。

Not my jam, but I would say it's like three hours without shelter, three days without water, three weeks without food.

不是我的果酱，但我想说这就像三个小时没有住所，三天没有水，三周没有食物。

General rule of thumb, so be careful with dehydration, you can go a long time without food.

一般经验法则是，所以要小心脱水，你可以长时间不吃东西。

I don't care how ripped you are, you get 8% body fat, man, you got plenty of time.

我不管你有多瘦，你的体脂只有 8%，伙计，你有足够的时间。

You can go a couple of weeks, no problem.

你可以去几个星期，没问题。

Andrew Huberman: You got calories.

安德鲁·休伯曼：你有卡路里。

Tim Ferriss: Nine thousand calories per pound, stored body fat, you got plenty, don't worry.

蒂姆·费里斯：每磅九千卡路里，储存的身体脂肪，你有足够的，不用担心。

So for people who have the option to be in nature and just exercise several hours a day to exhaustion, see how many of your problems seem to just go away.

因此，对于那些可以选择亲近大自然并每天锻炼几个小时直至筋疲力尽的人来说，看看有多少问题似乎就消失了。

Just try that.

试试吧。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, well, my Sunday routine is to try and get outside and move as much as possible.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：是的，我周日的例行公事就是尝试到外面去，尽可能多地活动。

I don't always succeed, but I'm going to try a longer retreat into nature.

我并不总是成功，但我会尝试更长时间地回归大自然。

I think Olympic National Forest is calling me again.

我想奥林匹克国家森林又在召唤我了。

It seems like once a year.

好像一年一次。

I just want to get back up there.

我只想回到那里。

Tim Ferriss: It's calling, you should get back out there.

蒂姆·费里斯：它在召唤，你应该回到那里。

Andrew Huberman: Spectacular.

安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。

I have a question about mentors.

我有一个关于导师的问题。

I'm a big believer in mentors, either mentors that know us and we know them or people that we assign as mentors without them realizing it, this sort of thing.

我非常相信导师，要么是了解我们并且我们也了解他们的导师，要么是我们在他们没有意识到的情况下指定为导师的人，诸如此类的事情。

Do you have mentors at this stage of life for particular areas of life?

在您人生的这个阶段，是否有针对生活特定领域的导师？

Are you mentoring yourself?

你在辅导自己吗？

Are you flying with a few voices in your head that serve you well?

您飞行时脑子里是否有一些对您有利的声音？

Who are your mentors?

谁是你的导师？

Tim Ferriss: I definitely have people I consider mentors.

蒂姆·费里斯：我确实有一些我认为是导师的人。

I think, at this point, rarely I think, at this point, rarely one-way, in the sense that they tend to be friends I spend time with.

我认为，在这一点上，我很少认为，在这一点上，很少是单向的，因为他们往往是我共度时光的朋友。

They get something from it.

他们从中得到一些东西。

I get something from it, not in a transactional way, but they find it fun or beneficial or amusing in some way or redeeming to spend time with me.

我从中得到了一些东西，不是以交易的方式，但他们觉得这很有趣或有益或以某种方式有趣或赎回与我共度时光。

That's the hope.

这就是希望。

Andrew Huberman: But how is that different from traditional friendship?

安德鲁·休伯曼：但这与传统友谊有什么不同？

Just sort of standard friendship?

只是标准的友谊吗？

Are you spending time with some orientation toward their embodying areas of life that you would like to emulate?

您是否花时间对您想要效仿的他们的生活领域进行定位？

Tim Ferriss: Totally.

蒂姆·费里斯：完全可以。

I mean, I spend time around people I hope to be more like in some way.

我的意思是，我花时间和那些我希望在某些方面更像的人在一起。

Because guess what?

因为你猜怎么着？

You're going to average into, say, just the sum holistic whole of the five or six people you spend the most time with.

比如说，你将平均为与你相处时间最多的五六个人的整体总和。

So you should choose that very carefully.

所以你应该非常仔细地选择。

That includes virtual parasocial relationships.

这包括虚拟的准社会关系。

Okay.

好的。

If you're listening to fill in the blank person for four hours a week, five hours a week, two hours a week, whoever that group is comprised of is going to influence who you become.

如果你每周花四个小时、每周五个小时、每周两个小时来倾听填补空白的人，那么无论这个小组的成员是谁，都会影响你成为什么样的人。

And for me, then I think carefully about my friendships, and they could be older.

对我来说，我会仔细考虑我的友谊，他们可能会更老。

Like Kevin Kelly has become a good friend who has a wealth of life experience that I don't have.

就像凯文·凯利成为了一个好朋友，他拥有我所没有的丰富的生活经验。

And so I might just call him and say, Kevin, I have a question for you.

所以我可能会打电话给他说，凯文，我有一个问题要问你。

But I do that with my younger friends too, and they could be younger than I am, and I might still view them as a mentor in X, Y or Z.

但我也对我的年轻朋友这样做，他们可能比我年轻，我可能仍然将他们视为 X、Y 或 Z 方面的导师。

I think mentor has a heavy weight to it.

我认为导师的分量很重。

It has a connotation of maybe never-ending, time-consuming obligation.

它的含义可能是永无休止、耗时的义务。

So I would never, for instance, and I know a lot of people try this, ask someone to be my mentor.

所以我永远不会，例如，我知道很多人都尝试这样做，请某人成为我的导师。

It's like, would you like to be my free life coach forever?

就像，你愿意永远成为我的免费生活教练吗？

That's kind of how it sounds to the recipient.

这就是收件人听起来的样子。

Andrew Huberman: It sounds very formal.

Andrew Huberman：听起来很正式。

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, it sounds very formal.

蒂姆·费里斯：是的，听起来很正式。

For me, I would say there have certainly been mentors.

对我来说，我想说肯定有导师。

I've had wrestling coaches, I've had teachers.

我有摔跤教练，我有老师。

I've had resident advisors who are reverence, who had a huge impact on my life and followed up with me and paid attention to me and cared for me in more of a one-directional sense.

我有一些令人尊敬的常驻顾问，他们对我的生活产生了巨大的影响，并以一种单向的方式跟踪我、关注我、关心我。

I view myself as the beneficiary.

我认为自己是受益者。

Of course, they certainly got something out of it.

当然，他们确实从中得到了一些东西。

If they had that job, I mean, they probably found it to be very gratifying in its own way.

我的意思是，如果他们有这份工作，他们可能会发现它以自己的方式非常令人满意。

And teachers, like Professor Ed Zschau at Princeton, I feel incredibly indebted to.

我对普林斯顿大学的 Ed Zschau 教授等老师深表感激。

These days and for a long time I've believed that you can learn something powerful from almost anyone, probably anyone you interact with.

这些天和很长一段时间以来，我一直相信你可以从几乎任何人身上学到一些强大的东西，可能是与你互动的任何人。

Could be an Uber driver, could be someone taking garbage out of a restaurant.

可能是优步司机，也可能是从餐馆里倒垃圾的人。

If you really take the time to dig, you can find something.

如果你真的花时间去挖掘，你一定能找到一些东西。

And before you can, I think as an adult, effectively think about who you would like to learn from.

我认为，作为一个成年人，在你可以之前，有效地思考你想向谁学习。

If I put it that way, it's helpful to have a baseline of self-awareness that you know what you might want to work on to either amplify strengths, develop skills, address weaknesses.

如果我这样说，那么拥有一个自我意识的基线是有帮助的，你知道你可能想做什么来增强优势、发展技能、解决弱点。

And so, for instance, one of my close friends, Matt Mullenweg, is younger than I am.

举例来说，我的一位亲密朋友马特·马伦韦格（Matt Mullenweg）比我年轻。

He's the founder of Automattic, which runs wordpress.com.

他是 Automattic 的创始人，该公司运营着 wordpress.com。

He was the lead developer of WordPress, although it was an open-source project, of course, with many, many contributors, he was one of the lead developers — now powers something like 32% of the internet.

他是 WordPress 的首席开发人员，尽管它是一个开源项目，当然，有很多很多贡献者，他是主要开发人员之一 - 现在为大约 32% 的互联网提供支持。

And he exemplifies a cool and calm temperament even in the most chaotic periods imaginable, during the most chaotic events imaginable.

即使在可以想象到的最混乱的时期，在可以想象到的最混乱的事件中，他也体现了冷静和冷静的气质。

And when I find myself getting dysregulated, to use a fancy term, losing my shit or getting carried away by emotion, getting righteously angry or whatever it might be, and I recognize at some point that it's really not serving me that I am being owned by the emotion, right?

当我发现自己变得失调时，用一个奇特的术语来说，就是失去了我的狗屎或被情绪冲昏了头脑，理所当然地生气或其他任何可能的事情，我在某个时候认识到，我被情绪所控制真的对我没有好处，对吗？

Like I'm the dog on the leash, not the other way around.

就像我是拴在皮带上的狗，而不是相反。

Then I think of Matt.

然后我想到了马特。

I'm like, what would Matt do?

我想，马特会怎么做？

What advice would Matt give me right now?

马特现在会给我什么建议？

How would Matt act in these circumstances?

在这种情况下，马特会如何行动？

And I do that with many friends.

我和很多朋友都这样做。

I also think a lot about, and this is borrowing from someone named Kathy Sierra from a long time ago, focusing more on just-in-time information as opposed to just-in-case information.

我也思考了很多，这是从很久以前一个叫 Kathy Sierra 的人那里借来的，更多地关注即时信息而不是以防万一信息。

So just-in-case information is like, I'm going to read these 20 books because in two years I might be interested in X, Y and Z.

因此，以防万一的信息是，我将阅读这 20 本书，因为两年后我可能对 X、Y 和 Z 感兴趣。

That I think is often a waste of time, because if it ever becomes relevant, you're just going to have to reread those books.

我认为这通常是浪费时间，因为如果它变得相关，你就必须重新阅读这些书。

People do the same thing with humans.

人们对人类做同样的事情。

They're like, I want to meet so-and-so and have them as my mentor, because maybe five years from now I'll do X, Y and Z, and then they'll be useful for ABC.

他们说，我想认识某某并让他们作为我的导师，因为也许五年后我会做 X、Y 和 Z，然后他们将对 ABC 有用。

That's too speculative, and I think it ends up in a lot of wasted energy.

这太投机了，我认为这最终会浪费大量的精力。

So the podcast for me, writing the books and doing the interviews, even prior to the podcast, becoming involved with startups, delving into the world of science and scientists, all helps me to develop a confidence that almost any question I could ask I can find some semblance of an answer for by just reaching out to a few people and saying, who do you know who might be able to answer this?

因此，播客对我来说，写书和接受采访，甚至在播客之前，参与初创公司，深入研究科学和科学家的世界，所有这些都帮助我建立了一种信心，几乎任何我能问的问题，只要联系几个人并说，你知道谁可以回答这个问题，我就可以找到一些类似的答案？

And that's very reassuring.

这非常让人放心。

And it relieves some of the anxiety or pressure that people might feel to assemble some personal board of directors of X men and women who can help them with everything.

它减轻了人们可能会感到的一些焦虑或压力，因为他们组建了一些可以帮助他们解决一切问题的个人董事会。

And then there are people I hire to be accountable to.

然后是我雇用的要对其负责的人。

So I might work with coaches, therapists and so on, who I would view as mentors.

所以我可能会与教练、治疗师等一起工作，我将他们视为导师。

They just happen to get getting paid for it, right?

他们只是碰巧得到报酬，对吗？

Andrew Huberman: The reason I asked the question is because we were talking about the meditative process going into nature.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我问这个问题的原因是因为我们正在谈论进入自然的冥想过程。

And even with psychedelics, they can be viewed a lot of different ways.

即使是迷幻药，我们也可以用很多不同的方式来看待它们。

But I think of them largely as going inward to explore.

但我认为它们很大程度上是向内探索。

I mean, you're out in nature and learning from nature.

我的意思是，你在大自然中并向大自然学习。

There's such a core truth to nature.

大自然有这样一个核心真理。

I know that sounds a little bit wishy-washy, but it's true.

我知道这听起来有点软弱，但这是事实。

Like it's there.

就像它就在那里一样。

It's concrete, it's really something.

它是具体的，它确实是东西。

It was there long before any of us, and it'll be there a lot longer than any of us will ever be, we hope.

它早在我们任何人之前就已经存在了，而且我们希望它会比我们任何人存在的时间都要长得多。

Certainly, if it goes, we go.

当然，如果它走了，我们就走。

But the process of learning from others and paying attention to others is really an outward-looking thing.

但向别人学习、关注别人的过程确实是一件外向的事情。

I mean, we have to bring that in.

我的意思是，我们必须把它带进来。

But I was just curious how you balance those and as a way to really understand not just your time allocation.

但我只是很好奇你如何平衡这些，并以此作为一种真正理解你的时间分配的方式。

I think we could talk about that.

我想我们可以谈谈这个。

How's your morning structured, etc., which I think there's great value in knowing, but more what's your mind allocation?

你早上的安排如何等等，我认为了解这一点很有价值，但更重要的是你的思想分配是什么？

I think about this.

我想这个。

Where's my brain?

我的大脑在哪里？

Am I focused on what's going on in here?

我是否专注于这里发生的事情？

And is there a need to excavate there?

还有那里有必要挖掘吗？

Sure, but how much time am I out of my head and bringing things in from the outside world and back and forth?

当然可以，但是我有多少时间从自己的头脑中来来回回地从外界带入事物？

So do you have some sense of across the year, across the day, how you mind-allocate?

那么你对一年中、一天中的思维分配有什么了解吗？

I don't know if that's the best phrase, but I can't think of any better one.

我不知道这是否是最好的短语，但我想不出更好的短语。

If you can think of a better one, please table it, because I'm happy to use that.

如果您能想到更好的，请提出来，因为我很乐意使用它。

Tim Ferriss: How do I think about mind allocation or attention allocation?

蒂姆·费里斯：我如何看待思维分配或注意力分配？

I try to, and most frequently think of my mind share across a year and across weekly time frame.

我尝试并且最常想到的是我在一年和每周时间范围内的思想分享。

And I find that to be manageable in the sense that on a yearly basis, on New Year's Eve, or roughly around New Year's every year, I'll do a past year review.

我发现从某种意义上说这是可以管理的，每年，在除夕夜，或者大约每年新年前后，我都会对过去的一年进行回顾。

"PYR," past year review, where I'll go back and I'll look at my entire last year.

“PYR”，过去的一年回顾，我会回顾过去的一年。

I'll have a piece of paper in front of me, line down the center, plus, negative, and I will go through every week in my calendar for the previous year, and I will write down the people, places, activities, commitments, etc., that produced peak positive emotional experiences.

我会在我面前放一张纸，沿着中心线，加号，减号，然后我会浏览前一年日历中的每周，我会写下产生高峰积极情感体验的人物、地点、活动、承诺等。

So, right, we're doing an 80-20 analysis here.

所以，我们在这里进行 80-20 分析。

Like what are the big rocks that really move the needle in a meaningful way?

比如哪些大石头能够真正以有意义的方式推动发展？

And conversely, who are the people?

反过来说，人民是谁？

What are the things?

到底是什么东西呢？

What are the places that just made me go and were draining, produced peak negative experiences?

哪些地方让我去了，让我筋疲力尽，产生了最负面的体验？

Why the hell did I commit to this type experiences?

我到底为什么要致力于这种类型的经历？

And that presents me with a do-more-of, do-less-of list.

这给我提供了一份“多做、少做”的清单。

Then I look forward to the next year.

然后我期待明年。

And I did this, I suppose, just a handful of months ago around New Year's, with the positive.

我想，就在几个月前的新年前后，我这样做是有积极意义的。

I'm like, okay, here's my list of do more of.

我想，好吧，这是我要做的更多事情的清单。

It's not real until it's in the calendar.

直到它出现在日历上才算真实。

Let's get these things in the calendar.

让我们把这些事情记在日历上吧。

And then I will start talking to people, booking things, having people help with organizing, if that is required, and getting things blocked out.

然后我将开始与人们交谈，预订东西，让人们帮助组织（如果需要的话），并把事情排除掉。

So I have already this year, and we're in the reasonable beginning stages of the year, I have things blocked out until November of this year.

所以我今年已经这样做了，我们正处于今年合理的开始阶段，我已经把事情安排到了今年 11 月。

And those provide the breaks in the action.

这些提供了行动中的休息时间。

Not just the breaks in the action, but the fun stuff.

不仅仅是动作中的休息，还有有趣的事情。

Because, by the way, guys, I thought for a long time, like, yeah, you take care of A, B and C, and the good stuff just takes care of itself.

因为，顺便说一句，伙计们，我想了很长一段时间，就像，是的，你照顾好 A、B 和 C，好东西就会自然而然地照顾好自己。

I do not any longer believe that to be true.

我不再相信这是真的。

Unless you schedule these things that you claim are important, they're going to get crowded out by bullshit.

除非你安排这些你声称重要的事情，否则它们就会被废话排挤。

And maybe not bullshit, but just less important things.

也许不是废话，只是一些不那么重要的事情。

The urgent will crush the important.

紧急的事情会压垮重要的事情。

So I get these things on the calendar, and then I back up and I look at optimal weekly mind allocation, right?

所以我把这些事情放在日历上，然后我备份并查看最佳的每周思维分配，对吗？

Attentional allocation.

注意力分配。

And there's an incredible cost to cognitive switching if you're just task-switching all day.

如果你整天都在切换任务，那么认知切换的成本是令人难以置信的。

So I will try my best to format a weekly rhythm, a weekly sequence that allows me to focus on certain types of tasks.

所以我会尽力制定每周的节奏，每周的顺序，让我能够专注于某些类型的任务。

So Monday is very frequently admin of some type, just bits and ends, flotsam and jetsam, all the miscellaneous pieces that are part of life, you got to deal with them.

所以周一经常是某种类型的管理，只是零碎的东西、废物和废品，所有生活中的杂碎，你必须处理它们。

That tends to be Monday whenever possible, and especially if I am focused on physical activity.

只要有可能，那往往是星期一，尤其是当我专注于体育活动时。

Let's just say I'm in a place like Colorado.

假设我在科罗拉多州这样的地方。

I will try to schedule most of that for after lunch to ensure that I get in a lot of exercise and movement in the first portion of the day.

我会尝试将大部分时间安排在午餐后，以确保我在一天的第一部分进行大量的锻炼和运动。

Not everybody has that ability, but I will say more of you have that capacity than you might think, because most of what we all do is just not important.

不是每个人都有这种能力，但我会说，拥有这种能力的人比你想象的要多，因为我们所做的大部分事情并不重要。

Andrew Huberman: Time on social media first thing in the morning is probably the most poisonous activity that I could take part in.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：早上第一件事就是花在社交媒体上的时间可能是我能参加的最有毒的活动。

I don't want to point fingers at anyone else, but I think if people ask what is the amount of time it takes to get in a really good workout?

我不想指责其他人，但我想如果人们问需要多长时间才能获得真正良好的锻炼？

It's going to be about an hour, but a lot can be done in 45, or even 30 minutes.

大约需要一个小时，但 45 甚至 30 分钟内可以完成很多事情。

You think about how quickly that time goes by on social media.

你想想在社交媒体上时间过得有多快。

Tim Ferriss: I'm sure I'm not the only one.

蒂姆·费里斯：我确信我不是唯一一个这样的人。

That is part of the reason I deleted a lot of these apps from my phone.

这就是我从手机中删除了很多此类应用程序的部分原因。

It's like, I'd go into the bathroom to take a quick bit of business, and then 45 minutes later, I'm like, how have I been looking at Instagram?

就像，我会去洗手间快速处理一下事务，然后 45 分钟后，我会想，我最近怎么看 Instagram 的？

Forty-five minutes?

四十五分钟？

Andrew Huberman: Lines for restrooms have gotten very long in the last ten years.

Andrew Huberman：过去十年里，上厕所的队伍变得很长。

Has anyone noticed that the wait for the restrooms has gotten very long?

有没有人注意到，上厕所的时间很长？

Tim Ferriss: You have time for the important stuff, and just look at some of the extreme overacheivers out there.

蒂姆·费里斯（Tim Ferriss）：你有时间做重要的事情，看看那些极端优秀的人就知道了。

They have the same amount of time that you do.

他们和你有同样多的时间。

These companies are very smart.

这些公司非常聪明。

They have very good data scientists.

他们有非常优秀的数据科学家。

They have very good UI specialists.

他们有非常优秀的用户界面专家。

If anyone out there thinks that they can, look, maybe Jocko can discipline his way through it.

如果有人认为他们可以，看看，也许乔科可以通过纪律来度过难关。

I'm sure he can, because he is Jocko.

我相信他可以，因为他是乔科。

But in my case, and in the case of most people, you're bringing a knife to a gunfight.

但就我而言，以及大多数人而言，你是带着刀去枪战的。

If you think you can use your self-control to keep your use of Instagram, to, say, 10 minutes at a clip, good luck.

如果您认为自己可以利用自控力来保持使用 Instagram 的时间，比如说，每次使用 10 分钟，那么祝您好运。

And even if you can, people say, but I do that anyway.

人们说，即使你可以，但我还是这么做了。

I'm like, all right, how much time do you spend sending memes and links from Instagram or fill-in-the-blank platform to your friends in group chat?

我想，好吧，你花了多少时间从 Instagram 或填空平台向群聊中的朋友发送表情包和链接？

How much time does that consume?

这需要花费多少时间？

Andrew Huberman: I spend a fair amount of time on Instagram and Twitter, posting things related to the podcast, but I don't have someone to do that for me, and I actually enjoy doing it, and it challenges me in certain ways.

Andrew Huberman：我在 Instagram 和 Twitter 上花费了大量时间，发布与播客相关的内容，但我没有人为我做这件事，而且我实际上很喜欢这样做，这在某些方面对我提出了挑战。

But I completely agree with everything you're saying.

但我完全同意你所说的一切。

Tim Ferriss: Twitter has its use cases.

Tim Ferriss：Twitter 有它的用例。

I find it useful in some respects.

我发现它在某些方面很有用。

It has become much less useful and much less practical in the last year with a lot of the product changes, but it has its place.

去年，由于产品发生了很多变化，它的用处和实用性已经大大降低，但它有其一席之地。

It's not on my phone.

我的手机上没有。

It was on my phone for a very brief period of time.

它在我的手机上存在了很短的一段时间。

I find that my ability to be still and calm is eroded if I am too easily able to escape boredom.

我发现，如果我太容易摆脱无聊，我保持安静和平静的能力就会受到侵蚀。

If you cease to have the ability to be bored for five to 10 minutes, I think that makes you very fragile.

如果你不再有五到十分钟感到无聊的能力，我认为这会让你变得非常脆弱。

It makes you very easy to manipulate also.

它也让你很容易被操纵。

And there are a lot of forces at play online that want to manipulate or shape your behavior in different ways.

网上有很多力量想要以不同的方式操纵或塑造你的行为。

So I feel like it is imperative for me to cultivate the ability to just sit still and not consume the five minutes in line waiting to get into a restaurant by hopping on Twitter or Instagram.

因此，我觉得我必须培养静坐的能力，而不是通过 Twitter 或 Instagram 花五分钟的时间排队等待进入餐厅。

So that's part of the reason they're not on my phone.

这就是他们不在我手机上的部分原因。

Andrew Huberman: Could you tell us about CØCKPUNCH?

Andrew Huberman：您能给我们介绍一下 CØCKPUNCH 吗？

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, I can tell you about CØCKPUNCH.

Tim Ferriss：是的，我可以告诉你关于 CØCKPUNCH 的事。

So CØCKPUNCH is a creative project intended once again to make me less precious about protecting whatever brand I think I might have, and this is an investment in my long-term mental health also, and I think in my career, flexibility, my willingness to experiment.

因此，CØCKPUNCH 是一个创意项目，旨在再次让我不再那么珍惜保护我认为自己可能拥有的任何品牌，这也是对我长期心理健康的投资，我认为在我的职业生涯中，灵活性和尝试的意愿。

CØCKPUNCH could be a long story, but the gist of it is I wanted to experiment with fiction writing.

《CØCKPUNCH》可能是一个很长的故事，但其要点是我想尝试小说写作。

I've been saying this for years and I've never done it.

这句话我已经说了很多年了，但我从来没有这样做过。

That's the backdrop.

这就是背景。

On top of that, I have wanted to get back into illustration and work in the visual arts, which I did for a long time when I was younger, and I've not done that consistently.

最重要的是，我一直想回到插画和视觉艺术领域工作，我年轻时很长一段时间都这样做，但我并没有一直这样做。

Why not?

为什么不呢？

Because I haven't had accountability, I haven't had deadlines, it hasn't been in the calendar.

因为我没有责任，没有最后期限，它没有出现在日历中。

This should sound somewhat familiar by now.

现在这听起来应该有点熟悉。

And at the same time, I was becoming very interested in Web3 and what was happening in the world of NFTs.

与此同时，我对 Web3 以及 NFT 世界中正在发生的事情非常感兴趣。

This is probably 2020, and I know they've developed a fairly negative connotation for a lot of good reasons, but I started to think about fundraising for early stage science, and if I could conduct an experiment as a proof of concept with different novel approaches to fundraising.

这可能是 2020 年，我知道出于很多充分的原因，它们已经产生了相当负面的含义，但我开始考虑为早期科学筹集资金，以及我是否可以进行一项实验，作为用不同新颖的筹款方法进行概念验证的实验。

So rather than just calling the rich friends who might sort of bend to the pressure or be willing to fund, I wanted to look at, say, crowdfunding back in the day.

因此，我不想只打电话给那些可能屈服于压力或愿意资助的富有的朋友，而是想看看当时的众筹。

Then I wanted to look at different options for perhaps art auctions.

然后我想看看艺术品拍卖的不同选择。

And I was going to do this with contemporary art.

我打算用当代艺术来做到这一点。

This is many years ago, and in the process of wanting to fund the Hopkins Center for Psychedelic and Consciousness Research, which was the first of its kind in the United States.

这是很多年前的事了，当时我们正在为霍普金斯迷幻与意识研究中心提供资金，该中心是美国第一个此类中心。

And the technology gave me the opportunity to learn about a new, let's just call it, set of technologies.

这项技术让我有机会了解一组新的技术，我们就这样称呼它吧。

So to develop skills and knowledge, it would give me the opportunity to reconnect and deepen friendships with a number of my very, very smart friends who are playing in that area.

因此，为了发展技能和知识，这将使我有机会与在该领域玩耍的许多非常非常聪明的朋友重新建立联系并加深友谊。

Also test fundraising, also get back into fiction and art, and all of that combined into this thing that I ended up calling CØCKPUNCH because it made me laugh.

还测试筹款，也回到小说和艺术，所有这些都结合到了这个东西中，我最终称之为 CØCKPUNCH，因为它让我发笑。

And you know what, man?

你知道吗，伙计？

If you take your work too seriously, you're going to burn out before you get the really serious work done.

如果你太认真地对待你的工作，你就会在完成真正严肃的工作之前就精疲力竭。

And I think it was Bertrand Russell who said, "it's a sure sign of an impending nervous breakdown if you start taking your work too seriously or believing your work to be very serious."

我认为伯特兰·罗素曾说过：“如果你开始过于认真地对待自己的工作或相信自己的工作非常严肃，那么这肯定是即将发生精神崩溃的迹象。”

And for that reason, I wanted to give it an absurd name that would also have some word-of-mouth benefit and that to see what would happen, honestly, just see what would happen.

出于这个原因，我想给它一个荒谬的名字，这也会有一些口碑效应，看看会发生什么，老实说，看看会发生什么。

Because I was like, all right, look, what is honestly the worst thing that happens?

因为我当时想，好吧，看，说实话，发生的最糟糕的事情是什么？

People write a bunch of pieces where they're like, shaking their fist at the sky.

人们写下一堆像向天空挥舞拳头的作品。

How dare Tim Ferriss create a project called CØCKPUNCH?

Tim Ferriss 怎么敢创建一个名为 CØCKPUNCH 的项目？

Andrew Huberman: You could turn it around on them and just say that what they were doing is a CØCKPUNCH, attempting.

Andrew Huberman：你可以反过来对他们说，他们正在做的是一个 CØCKPUNCH，尝试。

Tim Ferriss: Well, that was kind of the thing that was kind of part of the thinking that it would just be entertaining to watch people seriously trying to critique something called CØCKPUNCH.

蒂姆·费里斯（Tim Ferriss）：嗯，这就是我们认为观看人们认真地尝试批评一种叫做 CØCKPUNCH 的东西会很有趣的想法的一部分。

And the upshot of that is it raised almost $2 million, sold out in something like 30 minutes or 40 minutes, for the foundation.

其结果是为基金会筹集了近 200 万美元，并在大约 30 分钟或 40 分钟内售完。

All that money went to Saisei Foundation.

所有这些钱都捐给了Saisei基金会。

All of that money has already been distributed in the form of grants.

所有这些钱都已经以赠款的形式分配了。

Wonderful.

精彩的。

And along the way, I got to work with artists, with programmers, learn new technologies, reconnect with old friends.

一路走来，我与艺术家、程序员一起工作，学习新技术，与老朋友重新建立联系。

And now we're back in touch.

现在我们又恢复联系了。

And it's extremely fun to be back in touch with these folks.

重新与这些人取得联系是非常有趣的。

And I've written the equivalent of a short book in fiction in the form of short stories that are this fantasy-world-building exercise for me.

我以短篇小说的形式写了相当于一本小说的短书，这对我来说是一种幻想世界的构建练习。

And I'm having a blast.

我玩得很开心。

So I'm exercising new creative muscles.

所以我正在锻炼新的创造力。

That has led me back into the worlds of comic books, which I haven't created yet.

这让我回到了漫画书的世界，而我还没有创作过漫画书。

Led me back into the worlds of gaming, led me back into my fascination with tabletop gaming, because I played D&D forever when I was a kid.

让我回到了游戏世界，让我回到了对桌面游戏的迷恋，因为我小时候一直在玩《龙与地下城》。

That was my refuge as a runt who got the crap kicked out of him left and right.

那是我作为一个小矮子的避难所，他被左右踢了出去。

And I am having just a blast.

我玩得很开心。

And the takeaway, I think, on some level, is that you should do things.

我认为，在某种程度上，要点是你应该做一些事情。

"Should" is a loaded term.

“应该”是一个负载词。

It's helpful for me to consider doing things that give me energy, right?

考虑做一些能给我能量的事情对我很有帮助，对吗？

Because if we say, all right, time management is fine, but time doesn't really have any practical value unless you have attention, right?

因为如果我们说，好吧，时间管理很好，但是除非你有注意力，否则时间并没有任何实际价值，对吗？

So then there's attentional management, but that attention is limited also physically and sort of metaphorically by energy, right?

那么就有了注意力管理，但是注意力也受到物理上和隐喻上能量的限制，对吗？

So you have, like, substrates, diets, neurotransmitters and so on.

所以你有底物、饮食、神经递质等等。

If you do not have the basic batteries required, the rest of the things that are higher up on that pyramid can't really be executed properly.

如果您没有所需的基本电池，那么金字塔上较高层的其余部分就无法真正正确执行。

So for me it's like, okay, let's say CØCKPUNCH doesn't do anything.

所以对我来说，好吧，假设 CØCKPUNCH 没有做任何事情。

It's total failure, right?

彻底失败了，对吧？

Coming back to the like--

回到类似的情况——

Andrew Huberman: It raised $2 million for science.

Andrew Huberman：它为科学筹集了 200 万美元。

Tim Ferriss: It did.

蒂姆·费里斯：确实如此。

Andrew Huberman: And that science could be breakthrough.

安德鲁·休伯曼：科学可能会取得突破。

So CØCKPUNCH is, at least thus far, a success.

所以 CØCKPUNCH 至少到目前为止是成功的。

Tim Ferriss: It is.

蒂姆·费里斯：是的。

But coming back to Seth Godin's question, I asked myself, would I do this even if it turns out to be a complete failure financially?

但回到赛斯·戈丁的问题，我问自己，即使结果在经济上完全失败，我还会这样做吗？

And I was like, yes, because I think the relationships and the skills, even if this quote, unquote, fails from the outside looking in, those will transcend this project and be life-affirming and helpful and fun in other areas.

我当时想，是的，因为我认为人际关系和技能，即使这句话从外部看失败了，这些也将超越这个项目，并在其他领域对生活产生肯定、帮助和乐趣。

And that's proven to be true even though the project is ongoing.

尽管该项目仍在进行中，但这已被证明是正确的。

And I have more energy now because of this ridiculous project.

由于这个荒谬的项目，我现在有了更多的精力。

I'm very proud of the fiction, actually.

事实上，我对这部小说感到非常自豪。

This ridiculous project called CØCKPUNCH.

这个荒唐的项目叫做 CØCKPUNCH。

People can find The Legend of CØCKPUNCH on any fine provider of podcasts, and hired voice actors did the scripting, the production.

人们可以在任何优秀的播客提供商上找到《The Legend of CØCKPUNCH》，并聘请配音演员进行脚本和制作。

It hit number one fiction worldwide on Apple Podcasts for a while.

它一度在苹果播客上登上全球小说排行榜第一名。

The whole thing's hilarious.

整个事情很搞笑。

Andrew Huberman: And if you could, can you explain a little bit about the characters in CØCKPUNCH?

Andrew Huberman：如果可以的话，您能解释一下《CØCKPUNCH》中的角色吗？

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, I can.

蒂姆·费里斯：是的，我可以。

Andrew Huberman: Who's punching whose cock?

安德鲁·休伯曼：谁在打谁的鸡巴？

Or which cocks are punching?

或者哪些公鸡在猛击？

Tim Ferriss: Yeah.

蒂姆·费里斯：是的。

Which cocks are punching?

哪些公鸡在猛击？

How does this work?

这是如何运作的？

So here we go.

那么我们开始吧。

All right.

好的。

So The Legend of CØCKPUNCH takes place in this realm called Varlata, and Varlata is being described through the narrator, who we know as the seventh scribe.

所以《CØCKPUNCH 传奇》发生在这个叫做瓦拉塔的国度，而瓦拉塔是通过叙述者来描述的，我们称之为第七位抄写员。

We don't know much about the seventh scribe, but the seventh scribe makes an appearance in episode one as the reliable but possibly sometimes unreliable narrator of this space.

我们对第七位抄写员了解不多，但第七位抄写员在第一集中作为这个空间的可靠但有时可能不可靠的叙述者出现。

And there's a mind-bending time component where there's something called restarts, something like the "Edge of Tomorrow," if people have ever seen this movie where time restarts, maybe like "Groundhog Day," time restarts, and it's unclear as of yet in the story why that is the case, but people basically snap into being, they know who they are and what they do, but they have no real memories to speak of.

还有一个令人费解的时间成分，其中有一个叫做重新开始的东西，比如“明日边缘”，如果人们曾经看过这部电影，时间重新开始，也许像“土拨鼠之日”，时间重新开始，目前还不清楚故事中为什么会出现这种情况，但人们基本上很快就存在了，他们知道自己是谁，做了什么，但他们没有真正的记忆可言。

So the world is constantly being reconstructed and pieced together by these scribes, the seventh of which is the narrator.

所以世界不断地被这些抄写员重建和拼凑，其中第七位就是叙述者。

So you might read into this that I am a fan of fantasy, Tolkien, you name it.

所以你可能会读到我是奇幻迷，托尔金，凡是你能想到的。

Ursula K.

乌苏拉·K.

Le Guin, "The Wizard of Earthsea," etc.

勒吉恩、《地海巫师》等

Then there are eight primary houses.

然后有八间主要房屋。

These are the greater houses.

这些是更大的房子。

Some might call them clans, and they have different characteristics.

有些人可能称他们为氏族，他们有不同的特征。

Just prior to this seventh scribe beginning his piecing together, which turns into this story in the podcast, there was a Warring States period.

就在第七位抄写员开始拼凑（变成播客中的这个故事）之前，有一个战国时期。

This much he's been able to establish.

他已经能够确定这么多了。

And the peacekeeping mechanism that was devised is something called the Great Games.

所设计的维持和平机制被称为“伟大的运动会”。

And the Great Games is a combat competition.

而伟大的运动会是一场格斗比赛。

And the eight greater houses send their best fighters, who've been vetted through preliminary competitions, to the Great Games, which is in the free-trade zone, which is this one place where all of the races mingle and trade, and so on.

八个大家族派出了他们最优秀的拳手，经过预选赛的筛选，参加伟大的运动会，这是在自由贸易区，这是一个所有种族混合和贸易的地方，等等。

And all these characters happen to be anthropomorphized roosters, so they have generally each one gauntlet of some type, and clearly they punch each other with this gauntlet.

而所有这些角色恰好都是拟人化的公鸡，所以他们通常都有某种类型的手套，而且显然他们用这种手套互相殴打。

And there are many other types of weapons.

还有许多其他类型的武器。

So the colloquial nickname for this Olympics of combat is CØCKPUNCH, and that is the etymology, so the scholars say, of CØCKPUNCH, The Legend of CØCKPUNCH.

因此，这场格斗奥运会的通俗昵称是“CØCKPUNCH”，学者们说，这就是“CØCKPUNCH”的词源，“CØCKPUNCH 的传奇”。

And there's a lot more to it, and there are many wrinkles, a lot of Easter eggs in this entire story.

整个故事还有很多内容，有很多皱纹，有很多复活节彩蛋。

The idea came to me, and it started off as a bit of a farce, right?

我想到了这个想法，一开始只是一场闹剧，对吧？

It was just going to be something funny, see if it works.

这只是一些有趣的事情，看看它是否有效。

Maybe it raises some money.

也许可以筹集一些资金。

Very light lift.

很轻的电梯。

But once I got into the fiction, I started taking it super seriously.

但一旦我开始接触小说，我就开始非常认真地对待它。

So it's become very elaborate.

所以它变得非常复杂。

It's become really elaborate, and I'm loving it.

它变得非常精致，我很喜欢它。

It's great.

这很棒。

So who knows where it'll go?

那么谁知道它会去哪里呢？

I have no idea.

我不知道。

That's part of the reason why I called it an emergent long-fiction project.

这就是我称其为新兴长篇小说项目的部分原因。

I didn't call it an NFT project.

我没有称其为 NFT 项目。

I was like, this is an emergent long-fiction project where I'm taking inputs from the audience.

我当时想，这是一个新兴的长篇小说项目，我正在从观众那里获取意见。

I'm watching very closely what people understand or don't understand or find interesting.

我非常仔细地观察人们理解或不理解或感兴趣的内容。

I'm looking at, for instance, what is generated when I host an AI-assisted art competition, which I did with the fans.

例如，我正在研究当我与粉丝一起举办人工智能辅助艺术比赛时会产生什么。

And a lot of these bits and pieces get integrated in some fashion into this thing that chapter by chapter is coalescing.

许多这些零碎的东西以某种方式整合到这个逐章合并的东西中。

So that's CØCKPUNCH.

这就是 CØCKPUNCH。

Andrew Huberman: Amazing.

安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。

Tim Ferriss: And I had to buy cockpunch.com and @cockpunch Twitter.

Tim Ferriss：我必须购买 cockpunch.com 和 @cockpunch Twitter。

Andrew Huberman: You had to buy it from somebody?

Andrew Huberman：你必须从别人那里买它吗？

Tim Ferriss: Oh, yeah.

蒂姆·费里斯：哦，是的。

The whole process.

整个过程。

Andrew Huberman: I don't want to ask what it was being used for prior to your purchase.

Andrew Huberman：我不想在您购买之前询问它的用途。

Tim Ferriss: It was not being used for fantasy world-building, I'll put it that way.

蒂姆·费里斯：我这么说，它并没有被用于构建奇幻世界。

Andrew Huberman: Got it.

安德鲁·休伯曼：明白了。

Amazing.

惊人的。

And for so many reasons, I have so much to say.

由于很多原因，我有很多话要说。

But first of all, your excitement about it is tangible.

但首先，你对此的兴奋是显而易见的。

The energy you have around it is infectious.

你周围的能量是有感染力的。

And while I don't want to go into the total depth and contour of what Paul Conti has been telling me over the last week of preparing this mental health series about what's really great in life that we all should cultivate, it has a lot to do with this generative drive, which has a lot to do with positive energy.

虽然我不想深入探讨保罗·孔蒂在上周准备这个心理健康系列时告诉我的全部内容和轮廓，即我们所有人都应该培养生活中真正伟大的东西，但它与这种生成动力有很大关系，而这与积极能量有很大关系。

Not just positive thinking, but positive energy, but this triad of peace, contentment and delight.

不仅仅是积极的思考，还有积极的能量，还有平静、满足和喜悦的三合一。

And as you were explaining, it's clear that it brings you great peace, contentment and delight as action terms.

正如您所解释的，很明显，作为行动术语，它会给您带来巨大的平静、满足和喜悦。

Not like sit there and just hover in the basking in it.

不像坐在那里，只是徘徊在沐浴之中。

It's just so clear that this was a great idea, and I love that you started it as a way to kind of, I don't know, knock the fear out of yourself a little bit by knocking a little fear into the whole thing — what would happen if you let your mind go and allowed yourself to explore this?

很明显，这是一个好主意，我喜欢你开始它作为一种方式，我不知道，通过在整个事情中加入一点恐惧来消除你自己的恐惧 - 如果你放开你的思想并允许自己探索这个，会发生什么？

Tim Ferriss: And what permission would it buy you if it's not a total disaster?

蒂姆·费里斯：如果这不是一场彻底的灾难，它会给你带来什么许可？

This is true for "The 4-Hour Body," too.

《四小时健身》也是如此。

I'm like, if this partially works, it's not even a home run, but let's say I get on base.

我想，如果这部分有效，那它甚至不是本垒打，但假设我上垒了。

What permission does this then buy me?

那么这会给我带来什么许可呢？

What other impossibles, in quotation marks, am I willing to challenge?

我还愿意挑战哪些其他不可能的事情（用引号引起来）？

And I was able to make the hop from one category in the bookstore to in a completely different category and then the sky's limit.

我能够从书店的一个类别跳到另一个完全不同的类别，然后是无限的。

I was like, I can do anything.

我当时想，我可以做任何事。

I can do whatever I want.

我可以做任何我想做的事。

I've given myself permission and the market has given me permission, but the most important first step is you giving yourself permission and with, say, CØCKPUNCH.

我已经给了自己许可，市场也给了我许可，但最重要的第一步是你给自己许可，比如说，CØCKPUNCH。

As ludicrous as it is now that I've done that, my career hasn't ended, hasn't had any negative impact on my career whatsoever.

尽管我现在这样做很荒谬，但我的职业生涯并没有结束，也没有对我的职业生涯产生任何负面影响。

I'm like, okay, that's actually kind of surprising.

我想，好吧，这实际上有点令人惊讶。

Andrew Huberman: To the contrary, it seems like it gives you energy.

安德鲁·胡伯曼：相反，它似乎给你能量。

It raised money for science.

它为科学筹集资金。

Is it still raising money?

还在筹钱吗？

Is there still an opportunity for people to contribute?

人们还有机会做出贡献吗？

Tim Ferriss: It's sold out.

蒂姆·费里斯：已经卖完了。

If people want to contribute to, say, the early stage science, and let's just say specifically psychedelics, I would say it's very hard to get a very solid understanding of the field and the shifting sands and the projects and so on.

如果人们想为早期科学做出贡献，特别是迷幻药，我想说很难对这个领域、流沙和项目等有一个非常扎实的了解。

It's very rapidly changing.

它的变化非常迅速。

So I would say just provide money to a foundation that's already doing good work.

所以我想说，只要向已经做得很好的基金会提供资金即可。

It could be Riverstyx Foundation, it could be Beckley Foundation; my foundation, Saisei Foundation, I think does pretty good work.

可能是 Riverstyx 基金会，也可能是 Beckley 基金会；我认为我的基金会 Saisei Foundation 做得很好。

Andrew Huberman: And Saisei is not just the journalism fellowships, they're also funding for psychedelics.

安德鲁·休伯曼：Saisei 不仅仅是新闻奖学金，他们还资助迷幻药。

Tim Ferriss: Oh yeah, there's tons of stuff.

蒂姆·费里斯：哦，是的，有很多东西。

There's a project page on saiseifoundation.org.

saiseifoundation.org 上有一个项目页面。

You can see the projects.

你可以看到项目。

There're probably 15 to 20 of them, and they can see the basic science all the way from really basic science, looking at possible mechanisms of action for something like DiPT, which is a very strange compound that--

他们可能有 15 到 20 个，他们可以从真正的基础科学一直看到基础科学，寻找像 DiPT 这样的东西的可能作用机制，这是一种非常奇怪的化合物——

Andrew Huberman: DiPT?

安德鲁·休伯曼：DiPT？

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, most people aren't going to know it.

蒂姆·费里斯：是的，大多数人不会知道这一点。

That produces profound auditory distortions and hallucinations in humans.

这会给人类带来严重的听觉扭曲和幻觉。

Very hard to animal model.

动物模型很难做。

And from that all the way up to really sophisticated imaging studies, from that to, say, at least a year or two ago, supporting phase three trials for MDMA-assisted psychotherapy, then the journalism, then the this, then and that.

从那一直到真正复杂的影像研究，从那到，比如说，至少一两年前，支持摇头丸辅助心理治疗的三期试验，然后是新闻，然后是这个，然后是那个。

But a lot of different scientific studies that are being supported.

但许多不同的科学研究都得到了支持。

So that's very exciting to me.

这对我来说非常令人兴奋。

But the CØCKPUNCH side of things is all done.

但 CØCKPUNCH 方面的事情已经全部完成了。

Money's been distributed, and maybe I'll do more of this kind of thing, but I might take a different approach.

钱已经分配了，也许我会做更多这样的事情，但我可能会采取不同的方法。

I feel like, okay, I learned what I feel I wanted to learn from that, and maybe I'll try something new next time.

我觉得，好吧，我从中学到了我想学到的东西，也许下次我会尝试一些新的东西。

Andrew Huberman: One thing's clear, nobody tells you what to do, Tim Ferriss : except you.

安德鲁·休伯曼：有一件事很清楚，没有人告诉你要做什么，蒂姆·费里斯：除了你。

But that's vetted through many important filters, like structured filters, and very thoughtful filters are the words that come to mind when I think about your process as you're sharing with us.

但这是通过许多重要的过滤器进行审查的，例如结构化过滤器，当我在与我们分享时想到您的流程时，我会想到非常周到的过滤器。

Tim Ferriss: I'll add one more thing, which is one of the sources of joy of CØCKPUNCH is that it is not over planned.

Tim Ferriss：我还要补充一件事，CØCKPUNCH 的乐趣之一就是它没有过度计划。

I set some initial conditions, and now it's emergent.

我设定了一些初始条件，现在它就出现了。

And as someone who has hyperanalyzed and meticulously planned most of my life for decades, I think it's helpful to have an improv component.

作为一个几十年来对我的大部分生活进行过度分析和精心计划的人，我认为有即兴发挥的成分是有帮助的。

So if you are a hyper planner, if you're a hyper measurer, if you like that degree of control, maybe you should try something that's a little less controlled.

因此，如果你是一个超级计划者，如果你是一个超级测量者，如果你喜欢这种程度的控制，也许你应该尝试一些控制较少的东西。

Take an improv class.

参加即兴表演课程。

Try fiction writing.

尝试写小说。

Do something that isn't totally scripted, where you don't know the outcome.

做一些没有完全照本宣科的事情，你不知道结果。

I think it's really good medicine for people.

我认为这对人们来说确实是一剂良药。

Just like if you spend all your time in a yoga class, maybe you should spend one day a week lifting weights, see what that's like.

就像如果你把所有时间都花在瑜伽课上，也许你应该每周花一天举重，看看那是什么样子。

And if you spend all your time in the gym and you can barely touch your toes, maybe you should do some more downward dog.

如果你把所有的时间都花在健身房里，而你几乎无法触及脚趾，也许你应该多做一些下犬式。

Try some yoga.

尝试一些瑜伽。

Similar, I think the spectrum of hyper planned to completely free flowing and improv provides ample opportunity to enrich themselves and maybe address some weaknesses at the same time.

类似地，我认为超计划的范围完全自由流动和改进提供了充足的机会来丰富自己，并可能同时解决一些弱点。

So, for me, CØCKPUNCH has been incredibly therapeutic.

所以，对我来说，CØCKPUNCH 具有令人难以置信的治疗作用。

Probably the first time that anyone has ever uttered that sentence.

大概是第一次有人说出这句话。

But yes.

但是是的。

Andrew Huberman: Probably.

安德鲁·休伯曼：可能吧。

Tim Ferriss: Yeah.

蒂姆·费里斯：是的。

Andrew Huberman: But that's part of what makes it so cool.

Andrew Huberman：但这就是它如此酷的部分原因。

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, totally.

蒂姆·费里斯：是的，完全可以。

Andrew Huberman: I love it.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我喜欢它。

I'm wondering if you'd be willing to share with us a little bit about your mindset, maybe even your motivation, but certainly your mindset around sharing some of the hard personal tribulations that you've shared.

我想知道您是否愿意与我们分享一些您的心态，甚至可能是您的动机，但肯定是您在分享您所经历的一些艰难的个人磨难时的心态。

In preparation for this discussion today, I went back to some of those posts that you did and the podcasts that you did around this, and I'd listened to them at the time, and they deal with quite serious violations of childhood and of self.

为了准备今天的讨论，我回顾了您所做的一些帖子以及您围绕此问题所做的播客，当时我听过它们，它们涉及对童年和自我的相当严重的侵犯。

And they're hard.

而且它们很难。

They're hard to listen to, and I can only imagine they must be even far, far harder to experience.

它们很难听，我只能想象它们一定更难体验。

And I was curious what led to your willingness to do that.

我很好奇是什么让你愿意这样做。

I have my own ideas about what might have motivated it, but I'd like to hear it from you.

对于其动机，我有自己的想法，但我想听听你的意见。

Tim Ferriss: Sure.

蒂姆·费里斯：当然。

Happy to talk about it.

很高兴谈论它。

And I think there are two particular examples that come to mind.

我认为有两个特别的例子浮现在我的脑海中。

So one is my near suicide in college.

其中之一是我在大学时差点自杀。

And if people search "some practical thoughts on suicide" and my name, it'll pop right up.

如果人们搜索“关于自杀的一些实用想法”和我的名字，它就会立即弹出。

I mean, if you just search my name and suicide, it'll probably pop right up.

我的意思是，如果你只搜索我的名字和自杀，它可能会立即弹出。

Pretty well-indexed at this point, which is very deliberate.

在这一点上索引得很好，这是经过深思熟虑的。

People can look at the URL structure for a little wink-and-hat tip.

人们可以查看 URL 结构以获得一些眨眼提示。

It'll tell you something about optimizing for Google.

它会告诉您一些有关针对 Google 进行优化的信息。

If you look at it, I'll just tell you the URL spells out how to commit suicide, but clearly I'm not teaching people how to commit suicide, but I wanted that to be a honeypot for some of that traffic because it's a lot easier now to find that type of practical implementation advice.

如果你看一下，我只会告诉你 URL 详细说明了如何自杀，但显然我不是在教人们如何自杀，但我希望它成为某些流量的蜜罐，因为现在找到这种类型的实用实施建议要容易得多。

And it's a bit harder to find, I think, compelling intervention.

我认为，找到令人信服的干预措施有点困难。

So, first of all, if you're feeling suicide, obviously, call suicide hotline, please.

所以，首先，如果您有自杀的感觉，请拨打自杀热线。

That's sometimes the last thing that people want to hear when they are in a place of suicidal ideation.

有时，当人们有自杀意念时，这就是他们最不想听到的事情。

And the reason I ended up writing a long post about this, which was terrifying to write because I had never told my parents, I had never told my closest friends.

我最终写了一篇关于此事的长篇文章，写起来很可怕，因为我从未告诉过我的父母，我从未告诉过我最亲密的朋友。

This was a secret.

这是一个秘密。

This is a dark, dark secret.

这是一个黑暗、黑暗的秘密。

And I wrote about it because I went to an event in San Francisco.

我写这篇文章是因为我去旧金山参加了一个活动。

I was interviewed on stage by Jason Calacanis, who's a friend and a very good interviewer, at an event.

在一次活动中，我在台上接受了杰森·卡拉卡尼斯 (Jason Calacanis) 的采访，他是我的朋友，也是一位非常好的采访者。

And after I got off stage, a bunch of people approached me and I was saying hi and taking photos and signing things and so on.

当我走下舞台后，一群人向我走来，我向我打招呼，拍照并签名等等。

And there was one young man there, very well-dressed, which isn't really relevant.

那里有一个年轻人，穿着非常考究，但这并不重要。

It was striking because in San Francisco, sometimes people are very underdressed.

令人震惊的是，在旧金山，有时人们穿着非常朴素。

And he had dressed up for it like he'd taken it seriously.

他为此精心打扮，就像他认真对待这件事一样。

And he was in a suit and tie.

他穿着西装，打着领带。

And he asked me if I could sign a book for his brother.

他问我是否可以为他兄弟在一本书上签名。

And I said, sure, no problem.

我说，当然，没问题。

And I asked him, what would you like me to write to your brother?

我问他，你想让我写什么给你哥哥？

And he kind of blanked.

他有点茫然。

He didn't kind of blank, he totally blanked.

他不是一片空白，而是完全一片空白。

But the look behind his eyes was unusual.

但他的眼神却很不寻常。

It wasn't just, I don't know what to say, blank.

这不仅仅是，我不知道该说什么，一片空白。

There was something else behind it.

背后还有别的东西。

And I could tell that he felt under pressure.

我看得出来他感到有压力。

And I said, no problem.

我说，没问题。

Take your time.

慢慢来。

I'll tell you what.

我会告诉你什么。

I'll just chat with a couple of other people and I'll sign the book.

我会和其他几个人聊天，然后在这本书上签名。

No problem.

没问题。

I'm not going anywhere.

我哪儿也不去。

And chatted with the other folks.

还和其他人聊了聊。

And then he asked if he could just walk me to the elevator and then I could sign the book.

然后他问我是否可以送我到电梯，然后我可以在这本书上签名。

I was like, sure.

我当时想，当然。

And he explained to me as I walked to the elevator how his brother had been a huge fan of mine and that I'd really kept his brother afloat for a long time.

当我走向电梯时，他向我解释了他的兄弟是如何成为我的超级粉丝，并且我确实让他的兄弟维持了很长一段时间。

And eventually his brother killed himself and that they'd kept his room exactly how it was.

最终他的兄弟自杀了，他们把他的房间保持原样。

And he wanted me to sign the book so that he could put the book in his brother's room.

他要我在这本书上签名，这样他就可以把这本书放在他哥哥的房间里。

And he asked me if I'd ever considered talking about mental health and mental health challenges publicly, because he thought it would really help a lot of people.

他问我是否曾考虑过公开谈论心理健康和心理健康挑战，因为他认为这确实会帮助很多人。

And that just.

就这样。

I'm, like, feeling myself tear up right now.

我现在感觉自己在流泪。

It was so crushing to hear this story.

听到这个故事真是令人心碎。

And totally unbeknownst to him, I had a lot of history with depressive episodes.

他完全不知道，我有很多抑郁症的历史。

And when I say near suicide, I had it on the calendar.

当我说差点自杀时，我已经把它写在日历上了。

I had a plan.

我有一个计划。

I was going to kill myself.

我本来想自杀。

I knew exactly how I was going to do it.

我清楚地知道我要怎么做。

I knew where I was going to do it.

我知道我要在哪里做。

I knew all of the variables that I needed to account for to get it done.

我知道完成任务所需考虑的所有变量。

And the only reason that didn't happen, for people who don't have the context, which most people won't, is I had tried to reserve a book at Firestone Library.

对于那些没有背景知识的人来说，这没有发生的唯一原因是我试图在费尔斯通图书馆预订一本书，而大多数人不会。

This is at Princeton, which had something to do with suicide.

这是在普林斯顿大学，与自杀有关。

It was like "Assisted Suicide," like, "The Clinician's Guide to Euthanasia," something like that.

就像“协助自杀”，“临床医生安乐死指南”之类的。

And it wasn't in.

而且它没有进来。

And I had forgotten to change my address at the registrar's office.

而且我忘记在注册办公室更改我的地址。

I was taking a year away from school, and that was to focus on finishing my thesis.

我离开学校一年，专注于完成我的论文。

It was to try a few jobs.

就是想尝试几份工作。

But I had ended up in a very bad place and was feeling very isolated.

但我最终陷入了一个非常糟糕的境地，并且感到非常孤立。

And my friends were graduating a year ahead of me.

我的朋友们比我早一年毕业。

And I was stuck on this thesis.

我被这篇论文困住了。

And there's a lot of backstory that I won't bore people with, but it got to the point where I decided, not that objectively, my life is bad.

还有很多背景故事，我不会让人们感到厌烦，但它已经到了我决定的地步，而不是客观地，我的生活很糟糕。

I think this is where people who haven't experienced depression get a little confused or it's hard for them to identify when they give advice to a depressed person.

我认为这就是那些没有经历过抑郁症的人在向抑郁症患者提供建议时会感到有点困惑或难以识别的地方。

Because you might say to a depressed person, like, but look, your life is so great.

因为你可能会对一个抑郁的人说，比如，但是你看，你的生活真是太棒了。

There's this, there's that, there's this.

有这个，有那个，还有这个。

And for a lot of depressed people, that say, yeah, I know.

对于很多抑郁的人来说，是的，我知道。

I look at that and I can't fix my state because I am broken.

我看着它，但我无法修复我的状态，因为我已经崩溃了。

And if this is how I'm going to have to live forever, with being this broken and dysfunctional and to have this internal hell that I live day by day, I just want to escape.

如果这就是我必须永远生活的方式，带着这样的破碎和功能失调，每天都生活在这个内心的地狱里，我只想逃离。

It's like someone jumping out of a burning building.

就像有人从着火的大楼里跳出来一样。

It's like they don't want to kill themselves, but they're jumping out of a burning building.

就好像他们不想自杀，但他们却从着火的大楼里跳了出来。

So I had it on the calendar, and thank God this was back when they would still send you a physical reminder in the mail, a little postcard that says, your book is in.

所以我把它写在了日历上，感谢上帝，那时他们仍然会在邮件中向你发送实体提醒，一张小明信片，上面写着，你的书在。

And that card went to my parents house and my mom saw it and panicked and called me.

那张卡片去了我父母家，我妈妈看到了它，惊慌失措地打电话给我。

And I lied.

我撒谎了。

I said it was for a friend who went to Rutgers who was doing a project on A, B and C.

我说这是给一位去罗格斯大学的朋友写的，他正在做一个关于 A、B 和 C 的项目。

But it was just enough to kind of snap me out of the trance and realize that killing yourself is like putting on a suicide vest with explosives and walking to a room, of all the people you care the most about and blowing yourself up.

但这足以让我从恍惚中清醒过来，意识到自杀就像穿上装有炸药的自杀背心，走到你最关心的人的一个房间，然后引爆自己。

So that snapped me out of it.

所以这让我摆脱了困境。

But no one knew this.

但没有人知道这一点。

This guy certainly didn't know that.

这家伙肯定不知道。

And that is when I went home and thought about it and just decided, okay, there's a chance if I write this, it's not certain, but there's a chance that this might help someone.

就在那时，我回家思考了一下，然后决定，好吧，如果我写这篇文章，就有可能，虽然不确定，但有可能对某人有所帮助。

It might prevent someone from doing what I was almost about to do.

它可能会阻止某人做我即将要做的事情。

And so I spent months getting this post written and put it out.

所以我花了几个月的时间写下这篇文章并发布出来。

And I know for a fact it has saved, minimum, dozens of lives.

我知道事实上它至少拯救了数十条生命。

And there are other things, including a very extensive list of resources that gave me, I suppose, not a toe in the water, but sort of jumping feet first into the deep end and experience of being that vulnerable.

还有其他的事情，包括一份非常广泛的资源清单，我想，这些资源不是让我涉足水中，而是让我先跳入深渊，并体验到自己是多么脆弱。

And this was a long time ago, I want to say at least eight to ten years ago when I put that post out.

这是很久以前的事了，我想说至少是八到十年前我发表那篇文章的时候。

And then I want to say it was just before COVID lockdown.

然后我想说那是在新冠疫情封锁之前。

I was in Costa Rica visiting a friend.

我在哥斯达黎加拜访一位朋友。

I was with my girlfriend at the time, and she knew a secret of mine.

当时我和女朋友在一起，她知道我的一个秘密。

And she was one of maybe two or three people who knew that I'd been sexually abused when I was a kid by a babysitter's son.

她是大约两三个知道我小时候被保姆的儿子性虐待的人之一。

From two to four, roughly and routinely all the time kind of thing.

从两个到四个，粗略地、例行公事地一直这样。

And what you're envisioning is what happens.

你所设想的就是发生的事情。

So it was not good.

所以这并不好。

And that had been compartmentalized and locked away for my whole life.

在我的一生中，这些都被隔离和锁起来。

I was like, that's in the past.

我当时想，那都是过去的事了。

We're focused on moving forward and nothing to be fixed, nothing to fix.

我们专注于前进，没有什么需要修复的，没有什么需要修复的。

And that was my perspective on things.

这就是我对事物的看法。

It turned out, it wasn't quite that simple.

事实证明，事情并没有那么简单。

I had done a lot of work, a lot of therapy, used psychedelic-assisted therapies as well, which, once again, are not all upside potential.

我做了很多工作，接受了很多治疗，也使用了迷幻辅助疗法，但这些疗法并不都是有上升潜力的。

There are some significant risks, but I had come a long way, and my plan had always been to wait until my parents passed because I didn't want them to blame themselves for this and then to write a book.

虽然存在一些重大风险，但我已经走了很长的路，我的计划一直是等到我的父母去世，因为我不想让他们为此自责，然后写一本书。

And there was something, though, at the time, when I was having dinner with my girlfriend that was dissatisfying about that plan.

但当时，当我和女朋友一起吃晚饭时，我对这个计划感到不满意。

There was something about it that bothered me, and I couldn't quite put a finger on it.

有件事让我很困扰，但我又说不上来。

And I was talking to her about it, and she said, that's going to take a long time.

我正在和她谈论这件事，她说，这需要很长时间。

She's like, have you ever thought about how many people are going to pass away or die or suffer between now and when you publish that book?

她说，你有没有想过，从现在到你出版那本书，有多少人会去世、死亡或受苦？

And I thought about it, and it was at that dinner that I decided to at least record a podcast covering this terrain.

我想了想，正是在那次晚餐上，我决定至少录制一个涵盖这一领域的播客。

I was not at all convinced that I wanted to publish it.

我根本不相信我想出版它。

I was terrified of publishing it also because it meant opening myself up to a lot of conversations or maybe just hurtful commentary online.

我也害怕发表它，因为这意味着我要接受很多对话，或者可能只是网上的伤害性评论。

Who knows?

谁知道？

There are a lot of idiots out there and a lot of otherwise fine people who are idiots on the internet.

外面有很多白痴，也有很多本来很好的人在互联网上也是白痴。

So I was very hesitant, ultimately decided I didn't want to do it as a one man show.

所以我非常犹豫，最终决定我不想把它作为一个人的表演。

I didn't want to make it a monologue.

我不想让它成为独白。

So I asked my friend Debbie Millman, who had been on my podcast.

所以我问了我的朋友黛比·米尔曼，她一直在我的播客上。

She's an amazing graphic designer and teacher, but she had unexpectedly, on my podcast, based on some of my questions, for the first time, publicly told her story about being sexually abused.

她是一位出色的平面设计师和老师，但出乎意料的是，她在我的播客上，根据我的一些问题，第一次公开讲述了她被性虐待的故事。

And so I had leaned on her in years after that, in private.

所以在那之后的几年里，我私下里一直依赖她。

And I asked her if she'd be willing to have a conversation with me about our respective journeys and what it felt like, what it looked like, what helped, what didn't help, what worked, what didn't.

我问她是否愿意与我谈论我们各自的旅程，以及它的感觉，它看起来像什么，什么有帮助，什么没有帮助，什么有效，什么无效。

To provide, at the very least, a glimmer of hope for people who were keeping some of these dark secrets or contending with them, not knowing what to do with them.

至少，为那些保守这些黑暗秘密或与之抗争而不知道如何处理它们的人们带来一线希望。

And we had that conversation.

我们进行了这样的谈话。

And I sat on it.

我坐在上面。

I sat on it.

我坐在上面。

I sat on it, and then I put it out and decided in advance that I would not look at any social media for at least several weeks afterwards.

我坐在上面，然后把它拿出来，并提前决定，此后至少几周内我不会看任何社交媒体。

If my team saw anything on social media or got emails, I didn't want to see anything other than positive feedback, which is not my de facto.

如果我的团队在社交媒体上看到任何内容或收到电子邮件，我不想看到除了积极反馈之外的任何内容，这不是我的事实。

I'm usually eager to solicit constructive feedback.

我通常渴望征求建设性的反馈。

But in this case, I knew that my own position was too vulnerable.

但在这种情况下，我知道自己的处境太脆弱了。

I didn't want to open up the possibility of destabilizing myself.

我不想让自己陷入不稳定状态。

And I put it out, and I think it's the most important podcast I've ever put out.

我把它发布了，我认为这是我发布过的最重要的播客。

So I kind of felt like my job was done from a podcasting perspective after that.

所以我觉得我的工作在那之后从播客的角度完成了。

And it's been incredibly gratifying.

这真是令人难以置信的欣慰。

I think it has certainly helped a fair number of people.

我认为它确实帮助了相当多的人。

And it was also really hard, because what I didn't anticipate was, I would say of my really super high performing, close male friends, maybe half reached out to me to tell someone for the first time about their extremely awful, graphic, firsthand experience of being sexually abused.

这也真的很难，因为我没有预料到的是，我想说的是，我的表现非常出色、亲密的男性朋友，也许有一半人主动联系我，第一次告诉某人他们被性虐待的极其可怕、生动的第一手经历。

The percentages were mind blowing.

这些百分比令人震惊。

The actual percentages were super high, which is part of the reason I mentioned earlier.

实际百分比非常高，这也是我之前提到的部分原因。

I think it's good to spend a little bit of time in those empty spaces to see, am I in a positive, energetic sense, pursuing something good, or am I running away from demons whipping my back?

我认为花一点时间在那些空旷的空间里看看我是否处于积极、精力充沛的状态，追求美好的事物，或者我是否正在逃避鞭打我背的恶魔？

And for a lot of those guys, I'm sure it's true for a lot of women, too.

对于很多男人来说，我相信对于很多女人来说也是如此。

They find medication through intense focus and achievement, which is super adaptive in a lot of ways, but it doesn't always have lifetime reliability.

他们通过高度的专注和成就找到药物，这在很多方面都具有超级适应性，但并不总是具有终生可靠性。

And that's the story.

这就是故事。

Andrew Huberman: It's impossible to hear those stories, your story, without feeling some substantial emotion.

安德鲁·休伯曼：听到这些故事，你的故事，不可能不感受到一些实质性的情感。

I'm not trying to intellectualize.

我并不是试图理智化。

Both of those aspects of your history that you shared are huge.

你们所分享的历史的这两方面都是巨大的。

They really are.

他们确实是。

They're obviously huge for you, and they're huge in terms of the positive impact in the world.

它们显然对你来说意义重大，而且它们对世界的积极影响也是巨大的。

I know this because I have read the comments, right?

我知道这一点是因为我看过评论，对吗？

And I've talked to people who have listened to those podcasts and read those blogs and have similar or maybe different stories of trauma.

我和听过这些播客、读过这些博客的人交谈过，他们有类似或可能不同的创伤故事。

But I think, as with your work in the psychedelic space, as with your work in the physical augmentation space, whatever you want to call it, it's apparent that you're willing to be first man in on a lot of things, and really you're sitting alone there in those moments.

但我认为，就像你在迷幻空间中的工作一样，就像你在物理增强空间中的工作一样，无论你想怎么称呼它，很明显你愿意成为很多事情的第一人，而且在那些时刻你真的是一个人坐在那里。

And these categories of revealing trauma are, in my mind anyway, so much more substantial in terms of their impact, positive impact, and the other aspects, "4-Hour Body" and psychedelic work, etc. is also tremendously impactful.

无论如何，在我看来，这些揭露创伤的类别在其影响、积极影响和其他方面，“4小时身体”和迷幻作品等也具有巨大的影响力。

So that's saying a lot.

这说明了很多。

So just want to say thank you for your bravery.

所以只想对你的勇敢表示感谢。

Tim Ferriss: Thanks, Andrew.

蒂姆·费里斯：谢谢，安德鲁。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah, it's crazy, because I think that a lot of people can imagine telling a story or to a close friend or something, but to put it out into the world, it's huge.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，这很疯狂，因为我认为很多人都可以想象讲一个故事或给一个亲密的朋友或其他什么东西，但把它放到世界上，这是巨大的。

You don't know how that's going to ripple.

你不知道这会产生怎样的涟漪。

And you've been a real pioneer and example for me, for Lex, for other people, and revealing things.

对于我、Lex、其他人来说，你都是真正的先驱者和榜样，并揭示了一些事情。

Not like that, but different.

不是那样，但又不同。

Peter Attia has recently been opening up about some serious challenges that he's had in his book.

彼得·阿提亚（Peter Attia）最近在书中公开了他遇到的一些严峻挑战。

He does that on podcast.

他在播客上这样做了。

He's been doing, you know, yet another category, arguably the most important category for exploration and sharing and thoughtful bravery, right?

你知道，他一直在做另一个类别，可以说是探索、分享和深思熟虑的勇气最重要的类别，对吗？

Because you didn't just put it out there in any form.

因为你不只是以任何形式把它放在那里。

So one thing I do know by experience is there's nothing weirder than being told thank you for the painful thing that you did.

因此，根据我的经验，我知道的一件事是，没有什么比被告知感谢你所做的痛苦的事情更奇怪的了。

So I don't want to push that too far, but I'd be remiss if I didn't because it really has its impact.

所以我不想把它推得太远，但如果我不这样做，那就是我的失职，因为它确实有其影响。

And for doing it again here today.

今天在这里再次这样做。

Huge thanks for doing that.

非常感谢您这样做。

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, my pleasure.

蒂姆·费里斯：是的，我很荣幸。

And I'll also say I got advice from a very experienced psychedelic facilitator at one point who said, take the pain and make it part of your medicine.

我还要说的是，我曾经从一位经验丰富的迷幻治疗师那里得到了建议，他说，承受痛苦，让它成为你药物的一部分。

And the way I think that applies here is we all experience pain, we all experience suffering.

我认为这里适用的方式是我们都经历过痛苦，我们都经历过痛苦。

Many of us have experienced trauma of one type or another.

我们中的许多人都经历过一种或另一种类型的创伤。

And that can consume you.

这会消耗你。

I mean, it can consume you, but it's like fire, right?

我的意思是，它可以吞噬你，但它就像火，对吧？

It can consume you, but you can also harness it and use it for different things.

它会消耗你，但你也可以利用它并将其用于不同的事情。

And I'm not going to hedge.

我不会对冲。

I'll say I know for a fact that there are people I've spoken to who are suicidal.

我想说的是，我确实知道有些人有自杀倾向。

And by the way, I'm not inviting everyone who's listening, if you are suicidal to reach out to me because it won't work.

顺便说一句，如果你有自杀倾向，我不会邀请所有正在听的人来联系我，因为这是行不通的。

I've had to disengage from that because it gets too heavy, right?

我不得不摆脱它，因为它变得太重了，对吗？

Just to engage one on one with people who are suicidal.

只是为了与有自杀倾向的人进行一对一的接触。

But there are resources.

但有资源。

In that post I mentioned, the "Some Practical Thoughts on Suicide."

在那篇文章中我提到了“关于自杀的一些实际想法”。

But let's just talk about closer friends, people you would never suspect in a million years who are this close to blowing their brains out.

但我们只谈谈更亲密的朋友，他们在一百万年内都不会怀疑，他们差点就被打爆了。

People folks would recognize in some cases.

在某些情况下，人们会认出。

The fact that I was also there once is why they listened to me.

事实上我也曾经去过那里，这就是为什么他们听我的。

Because I have, unfortunately, I'm a subject matter expert.

因为不幸的是，我是一名主题专家。

I have credibility.

我有信誉。

And that actually is very redeeming.

这实际上是非常值得救赎的。

It provides some meaning to the suffering that I experienced.

它为我所经历的痛苦提供了一些意义。

It's like, okay, here I am, for whatever host of reasons I am put in this place in time with this person, and they don't trust the input of these other people they're talking to because those people don't know what it's like.

就像，好吧，我在这里，无论出于何种原因，我被安排在这个地方与这个人在一起，他们不相信与他们交谈的其他人的意见，因为这些人不知道那是什么样的。

But I can look at this person in the eye and be like, oh, I know, and that's just a different thing.

但我可以看着这个人的眼睛，然后说，哦，我知道，但那是另一回事。

So you can find a way to transmute that pain into something meaningful, into a gift that hopefully you can share in some way, not necessarily with the whole wide world.

因此，你可以找到一种方法，将这种痛苦转化为有意义的东西，转化为一份礼物，希望你能以某种方式分享，而不一定是与整个世界分享。

Just one person.

只有一个人。

That's a big deal.

这是一件大事。

One person is a big deal.

一个人就是一件大事。

There's a lot out there that is intended for mass consumption that gets in front of millions of people doesn't really impact a single person very much.

有很多面向大众消费的产品在数百万人面前并没有真正对一个人产生太大影响。

So even if you don't have podcasts, you don't have books, if you have the ability to sit down with one person and really make an impact, that's actually more meaningful than most of the crap that gets put out there.

因此，即使你没有播客，没有书籍，如果你有能力与一个人坐下来并真正产生影响，那实际上比那里发布的大多数废话更有意义。

So take heart.

所以要振作起来。

Andrew Huberman: Amen to that.

安德鲁·休伯曼：阿门。

I'd like to spend a little bit of time talking about the roles you see yourself in.

我想花一点时间谈谈您认为自己扮演的角色。

I had this list coming in here of, you've done the exploration of the health sphere, self-experimentation.

我这里有一份清单，你已经完成了健康领域的探索和自我实验。

You've been an investor, you are an investor, you're a podcaster.

你曾经是一个投资者，你是一个投资者，你是一个播客。

I think these are more than titles.

我认为这些不仅仅是头衔。

I think titles are great, but titles are what we get from other people telling us what we do or deciding what we do.

我认为头衔很棒，但头衔是我们从其他人告诉我们做什么或决定我们做什么时得到的。

I'm more interested in how you think about yourself, like, your own role identity.

我更感兴趣的是你如何看待自己，比如你自己的角色身份。

And I have to assume you've spent a little bit of time on this.

我必须假设您已经在这方面花费了一些时间。

Like, if one were to go through the checklist of possible roles.

就像，如果要查看可能角色的清单。

Okay, I confess, I do this.

好吧，我承认，我就是这么做的。

I think.

我认为。

Okay, I think I checked the box of animal.

好吧，我想我检查了动物的盒子。

Because we're animals, after all, and we're human.

因为我们毕竟是动物，而且我们也是人。

Tim Ferriss: Still pole dancing?

蒂姆·费里斯：还在跳钢管舞吗？

I think I'm just a pole dancer.

我想我只是一个钢管舞者。

Andrew Huberman: Absolutely not.

安德鲁·休伯曼：绝对不是。

Are you still tango dancing?

你还在跳探戈吗？

Tim Ferriss: I'm planning on getting back into it.

蒂姆·费里斯：我打算重新开始。

Great.

伟大的。

That does have some background.

这确实有一些背景。

Andrew Huberman: I have Argentine lineage, and I'm embarrassed to say, I don't know tango.

Andrew Huberman：我有阿根廷血统，但我很不好意思地说，我不懂探戈。

Tim Ferriss: But you got the maté in the green room.

蒂姆·费里斯：但是你在休息室里得到了伴侣。

You're set.

你已经准备好了。

Andrew Huberman: My grandparents tango into their 80s, I think.

Andrew Huberman：我想我的祖父母已经 80 多岁了。

Late 80s.

80年代末。

Yeah.

是的。

Ate steak and smoked cigarettes and lived until their 90s.

吃牛排、抽烟，活到了90多岁。

Argentine.

阿根廷。

Diet of champion.

冠军的饮食。

Exactly.

确切地。

But I'm curious about the roles that you see yourself in.

但我很好奇你认为自己扮演的角色。

Role identity, to me, is so important in terms of where we see ourselves now and where we see ourselves going forward.

对我来说，角色认同对于我们现在和未来的自我定位非常重要。

And who knows?

谁知道呢？

Maybe you don't have any role identity plan, but what are some boxes that you see yourself in now that you really strongly identify with?

也许你没有任何角色认同计划，但你现在看到的自己真正强烈认同的框框是什么？

And then what are some boxes that you'd like to check off going forward?

那么您接下来想要勾选哪些框呢？

Tim Ferriss: So, current boxes, I would say the two that I probably identify with most, maybe three, but I'll focus on two — experimentalist, which can take a lot of forms that can apply to a whole lot of different spheres.

蒂姆·费里斯：所以，目前的盒子，我想说的是我可能最认同的两个，也许三个，但我会重点关注两个——实验主义者，它可以采取多种形式，适用于很多不同的领域。

So experimentalist and then teacher.

先是实验者，然后是老师。

And for the longest time, long, long time, I thought eventually I would go back and actually be a 9th grade teacher because I feel like that is such a critical window for so many kids where they can either hit an inflection point and go in a really good direction or they can go in a really bad direction.

在很长一段时间里，很长很长一段时间，我以为最终我会回去，真正成为一名九年级老师，因为我觉得这对于很多孩子来说是一个非常关键的窗口，他们要么达到拐点，朝一个非常好的方向前进，要么他们可以朝一个非常糟糕的方向前进。

And I certainly saw that on Long Island with a lot of my friends, a lot of overdoses, bunch of friends who have died of opiate addiction and various things.

我当然在长岛看到了这一点，我和我的很多朋友一起，很多吸毒过量的人，一群死于鸦片成瘾和各种事情的朋友。

And I had some intervention with mentors early on that sort of flipped the switch on the railroad track and sent me in a different direction.

我很早就与导师进行了一些干预，这打开了铁轨上的开关，将我引向了不同的方向。

So I thought for a long time I would go back and be a 9th grade teacher.

所以我想了很长一段时间我会回去当一名九年级老师。

And my impulse to experiment leads to enthusiasm for teaching, if that makes any sense, because I feel like as good as I might be, or decent at taking a complex subject, deconstructing it, applying 80-20, putting things in order, and learning things very quickly, which includes stress testing assumptions in that sort of assumed progression for skill, like language learning.

我对实验的冲动导致了对教学的热情，如果这有意义的话，因为我觉得自己尽可能擅长，或者说很擅长学习复杂的学科，解构它，应用 80-20，把事情整理好，并很快地学习东西，其中包括在那种假设的技能进展中的压力测试假设，比如语言学习。

There's so many myths in language learning, as an example.

举个例子，语言学习中有很多神话。

If it takes me, say, six months to become reasonably competent in field X, I can usually get other people to that same point of competence in a third of that time.

如果我需要六个月的时间才能在 X 领域变得相当有能力，那么我通常可以在三分之一的时间内让其他人达到同样的能力。

So for me, it's very gratifying to teach.

所以对我来说，教书是非常令人欣慰的。

And I view all the books as teaching tools.

我将所有书籍视为教学工具。

I'm no Tolstoy.

我不是托尔斯泰。

I recognize I'm not the world's greatest writer.

我认识到我不是世界上最伟大的作家。

I take the writing seriously.

我认真对待写作。

I don't half ass it.

我不半途而废。

I do many, many revisions, even for CØCKPUNCH.

我做了很多很多修改，甚至是 CØCKPUNCH。

It's like 27 revisions for a short story called CØCKPUNCH.

这就像对一个名为 CØCKPUNCH 的短篇小说进行了 27 次修改。

So I take it seriously.

所以我认真对待它。

But I recognize that I'm not the world's greatest wordsmith.

但我认识到我不是世界上最伟大的文字大师。

But I am looking for outcomes in readers or listeners, and I view my job as that of teacher.

但我正在寻找读者或听众的成果，我认为我的工作是教师的工作。

So I'd say experimentalist and teacher are the two, and those both go a long way and applies to, say, dog training, lots of experiments.

所以我想说实验者和老师就是两者，它们都有很长的路要走，适用于狗的训练和大量的实验。

Andrew Huberman: Those listening, Tim just looked under the table.

安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：蒂姆只是看着桌子底下。

One thing I should have said at the beginning and I did not, is that this is the first Huberman Lab podcast to feature a guest who brought their dog.

我一开始就应该说但我没有说的一件事是，这是第一个以带狗的客人为特色的胡伯曼实验室播客。

So we have Molly is here as well, and we're absolutely delighted.

所以莫莉也在这里，我们非常高兴。

There has not been a dog at on the Huberman Lab podcast since Costello passed away, and know, practically floating in delight that Molly's here today.

自从科斯特洛去世以来，胡伯曼实验室播客上就没有狗了，而且知道，莫莉今天在这里，几乎欣喜若狂。

She's amazing, and you've done an amazing job training her, too.

她太棒了，你对她的培训也非常出色。

Tim Ferriss: Thank you.

蒂姆·费里斯：谢谢。

Yeah, she's laying right next to my feet, licking my hand as I speak.

是的，她就躺在我的脚边，在我说话的时候舔我的手。

So good.

超好的。

And I'd say if I were to expand that by one, I would probably say explore.

我想说，如果我将其扩大一，我可能会说探索。

But the exploring goes hand in hand with the experimentation.

但探索与实验是齐头并进的。

So that can be geographic exploration.

这就是地理探索。

It could be spending time with people who are excellent at anything in any field, and seeing where that gingerbread trail leads me.

可能是花时间和那些在任何领域都擅长的人在一起，看看姜饼小道会把我引向何方。

And I think the exploration and the experimentation are, for me, bedfellows.

我认为探索和实验对我来说是相辅相成的。

They go together.

他们一起去。

Andrew Huberman: What about roles that you would like to explore or potentially see yourself in?

Andrew Huberman：您想探索或可能看到自己扮演的角色怎么样？

I mean, I don't have a magic wand, but if I did, as a fellow podcaster, and I consider you a friend, I would say, okay, if I could wand you to the success in given role, that wouldn't be the way it would work and that wouldn't be as gratifying as having to figure it all out, because that's part of your machinery, as you just told us.

我的意思是，我没有魔杖，但如果我有魔杖，作为一名播客，并且我认为你是朋友，我会说，好吧，如果我能希望你在给定的角色中取得成功，那就不会是它的工作方式，也不会像必须弄清楚这一切那样令人满足，因为这是你机器的一部分，正如你刚才告诉我们的。

So, yeah.

所以，是的。

What are some life roles that you're interested in expanding or stepping into that you haven't explored?

有哪些生活角色是您有兴趣扩展或涉足但尚未探索的？

Tim Ferriss: I would say more artists, more artistry, especially in the visual sense, because I wanted to be a comic book penciler for a really long time, got paid as an illustrator towards the end of high school and during college, so illustrated books and magazines and so on.

蒂姆·费里斯：我会说更多的艺术家，更多的艺术性，尤其是在视觉上，因为我很长一段时间以来都想成为一名漫画铅笔师，在高中末和大学期间作为插画家获得报酬，所以插图书籍和杂志等等。

Then I just dropped it.

然后我就把它扔掉了。

I dropped it when I graduated because I was, kid stuff, and it was time to get serious and be an adult, and I just, cold turkey just stopped all of it.

毕业时我放弃了它，因为我还是个孩子，是时候认真起来，成为一个成年人了，我只是突然停止了这一切。

And so the skills have atrophied a lot, but there's still a bit in there.

所以技能已经萎缩了很多，但仍然有一点。

Andrew Huberman: I've seen some posts on Instagram that were quite good.

Andrew Huberman：我在 Instagram 上看到过一些非常好的帖子。

Tim Ferriss: So I'm still messing around.

蒂姆·费里斯：所以我还在胡闹。

Yeah, I'm still messing around.

是啊，我还在胡闹。

And especially when I have some structure I do well.

尤其是当我有一些结构时，我会做得很好。

So I'd like to pursue that.

所以我想追求这一点。

I would like to experiment with animation.

我想尝试一下动画。

So I don't know if animator would be the right label because I most likely would not be doing the animation myself, but playing a role in visual art would be one, father would be another one eventually, and try not to be attached to it.

所以我不知道动画师是否是正确的标签，因为我很可能不会自己制作动画，但在视觉艺术中扮演一个角色会是一个，父亲最终会是另一个标签，尽量不要依附于此。

But we all play games of various types, and if we get really good at certain games that are socially rewarded, then you make money doing a podcast or investing or whatever it might be.

但我们都玩各种类型的游戏，如果我们真的擅长某些有社会回报的游戏，那么你可以通过播客或投资或其他任何方式赚钱。

But when the sort of ramp of my learning starts to flatten out a bit, I tend to get bored of those games.

但当我的学习进度开始趋于平缓时，我就会对这些游戏感到厌倦。

And I think that certainly one of the biggest adventures must be parenthood.

我认为最大的冒险之一肯定就是为人父母。

So at some point, I think father would be on there.

所以在某个时候，我想父亲会在那里。

And I should say, this is very judgmental of me to say, but I think there's a big difference between wanting to be a parent and wanting to have kids.

我应该说，我这样说是非常武断的，但我认为想成为父母和想生孩子之间有很大的区别。

I'm very cautious about saying I want to have kids, because that doesn't automatically imply you want to be a good parent, which is also why I thought it was very important for me to spend a lot of time training Molly.

我在说我想要孩子时非常谨慎，因为这并不意味着你想成为一个好父母，这也是为什么我认为花大量时间训练莫莉对我来说非常重要。

Andrew Huberman: A lot of learning there, right?

Andrew Huberman：那里学到了很多东西，对吧？

Tim Ferriss: Yeah.

蒂姆·费里斯：是的。

To see.

查看。

All right, am I going to do the heavy lifting and the hard work, recognizing that kids are not deferred dogs.

好吧，我要承担起繁重的工作和艰苦的工作吗？认识到孩子不是被推迟的狗。

But I do think there are actually a lot of similarities in terms of just predictive ability.

但我确实认为，就预测能力而言，实际上有很多相似之处。

If you see someone who has dogs that are terribly trained, look at their kids, you might see some similarities.

如果你看到某人养的狗受过严格训练，看看他们的孩子，你可能会发现一些相似之处。

Andrew Huberman: My good friend.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我的好朋友。

I'll out him here, who's M.D.

我会在这里把他找出来，他是医学博士。

Ph.D., is our chair of ophthalmology at Stanford, Jeff Goldberg.

博士是斯坦福大学眼科主任杰夫·戈德堡（Jeff Goldberg）。

I once asked him if he has any pets, and he said that he and his wife had three children as preparation for having a dog.

我曾经问他有没有养宠物，他说他和妻子已经生了三个孩子，为养狗做准备。

Tim Ferriss: That's hilarious.

蒂姆·费里斯：这太搞笑了。

There's a quote also from a book called "Don't Shoot the Dog," which is terrible title, but excellent book written by Karen Pryor, who was an aquatic mammal trainer.

其中还引用了一本名为《不要射杀狗》的书，这本书的书名很糟糕，但却是一本优秀的书，作者是水生哺乳动物训练师凯伦·普赖尔 (Karen Pryor)。

So she's training dolphins and whales and so on, which don't respond to negative reinforcement.

所以她正在训练海豚和鲸鱼等，这些动物对负强化没有反应。

You can't really hit them with a rolled up newspaper if they don't do what you want.

如果他们不做你想要的事，你就不能用卷起来的报纸打他们。

And there's a quote in that book, which is something along the lines of, I can't remember the attribution.

那本书中有一句话，大致意思是，我不记得出处了。

It's another trainer.

这是另一个教练。

And it was, people should not be allowed to have children until they've successfully trained a chicken,   because also, chickens, they just don't have the brain power to respond to much negative reinforcement.

事实上，在成功训练鸡之前，不应该允许人们生孩子，因为鸡也没有足够的脑力来应对太多的负面强化。

So you have to coax them to do what you want them to do with positive reinforcement.

所以你必须通过正强化来哄他们做你想让他们做的事情。

And, I mean, operant classical conditioning.

我的意思是，操作性经典条件反射。

It's kind of same, same across the board, whether you're like the CIA trying to train cockroaches to flip light switches.

无论你是像中央情报局那样试图训练蟑螂打开电灯开关，这都是一样的，全面的。

Not making that one up, by the way, or training whale or training a cat or training a human.

顺便说一句，这不是编造的，也不是训练鲸鱼、训练猫或训练人类。

Training sounds bad.

训练听起来很糟糕。

Cultivating a wonderful human, then I think there's a lot to be learned across the board.

培养一个优秀的人，那么我认为有很多东西需要全面学习。

So I've successfully proven to myself that I can keep a dog alive and happy.

所以我成功地向自己证明了我可以让狗活下去并且快乐。

Andrew Huberman: Yeah.

安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。

And train up another happy nervous system.

并训练另一个快乐的神经系统。

Curate another nervous system.

管理另一个神经系统。

That's a big deal.

这是一件大事。

Tim Ferriss: Oh, yeah.

蒂姆·费里斯：哦，是的。

Well, she's also like my external nervous system, so we sort of work in tandem.

嗯，她也像我的外部神经系统，所以我们有点协同工作。

I pay a lot of attention to how she relates to different people.

我非常关注她与不同人的关系。

Andrew Huberman: I saw earlier today, as someone who is the owner of a bulldog mastiff who knew one command, which was wait, which is by default, the easiest thing to train a bulldog, because, by the way, folks, if you stop a bulldog on the street to scratch them and they look delighted, they might like you, but chances are they're just really relieved that they get to stop.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我今天早些时候看到，作为一个斗牛犬獒的主人，他知道一个命令，那就是等待，默认情况下，这是训练斗牛犬最简单的事情，因为，顺便说一句，伙计们，如果你在街上拦住斗牛犬去抓它们，它们看起来很高兴，它们可能会喜欢你，但很可能它们只是因为能够停下来而真正松了一口气。

And Costello, he had a forebrain, and he was smart about what he needed to be smart about.

而科斯特洛，他有一个前脑，他很聪明地知道他需要聪明的事情。

But Molly is exceptional.

但莫莉是个例外。

She knows where she needs to be, and she's super connected to you, and she knows a ton of commands.

她知道她需要去哪里，而且她与你的联系非常紧密，而且她知道大量的命令。

It was ridiculous.

这太荒谬了。

Our staff was delighting in the number of things that Tim could get her to do just by looking at.

我们的员工很高兴蒂姆只需看着就能让她做很多事情。

Tim Ferriss: She's.

蒂姆·费里斯：她是。

She's also quite calm out of the box, which helps, although it makes it harder in some respects to train because she doesn't have much food drive.

她也非常冷静，这很有帮助，尽管这在某些方面使训练变得更加困难，因为她没有太多的食物驱动力。

Andrew Huberman: She liked those Maui Nui sticks.

安德鲁·休伯曼：她喜欢那些毛伊努伊棒。

Tim Ferriss: She loves the Maui Nui Venison sticks, but she.

蒂姆·费里斯：她喜欢毛伊努伊鹿肉棒，但她。

Okay, I'll say two things.

好吧，我就说两件事。

So, first is, if your dog is a spaz about food, that's actually great news.

所以，首先，如果你的狗对食物很感兴趣，那实际上是个好消息。

It will make your dog very easy to train in some respects.

这将使您的狗在某些方面很容易训练。

Read "Don't Shoot the Dog." It's excellent.

读《别射杀狗》。太棒了。

There are some others I could recommend.

我还可以推荐一些其他的。

I had a woman named Susan Garrett on my podcast because I wanted an objective measure of successful dog training, and competitors have objective measures.

我的播客上有一位名叫苏珊·加勒特 (Susan Garrett) 的女士，因为我想要对成功的狗训练进行客观衡量，而竞争对手也有客观衡量标准。

So she was a dog agility champion for many years, which has a lot of metrics.

所以她多年来一直是狗敏捷性冠军，这有很多指标。

So, anyway, I had her on for people who are interested.

所以，无论如何，我让有兴趣的人穿上她。

But the tip that I got from one dog trainer early on, because I was trying to train Molly, and I was using just some of her kibble, I'd like put some kibble in a bag and carry it around.

但我很早就从一位训狗师那里得到了建议，因为我正在尝试训练莫莉，而且我只使用了她的一些粗磨食物，我想把一些粗磨食物放在袋子里并随身携带。

And she was like, what are you doing?

她说，你在做什么？

And I said, what do you mean, what am I doing?

我说，你是什么意思，我在做什么？

She's like, is that kibble?

她说，那是粗磨的吗？

I'm like, yeah, it's kibble.

我想，是的，这是粗磨的。

And she's like, hey, pal.

她就像，嘿，朋友。

She's like, you're at a crowded bar.

她就像，你在一个拥挤的酒吧。

You got to tip with 20s.

你得给20多块小费。

Andrew Huberman: Nice.

安德鲁·休伯曼：很好。

Tim Ferriss: To get your dog's attention.

蒂姆·费里斯：为了引起你的狗的注意。

You take your puppy to the dog park.

你带着你的小狗去狗公园。

It's like squirrels, other dogs, grass, piss on the pavement, whatever it happens to be, you have to have good treats.

就像松鼠、其他狗、草、人行道上的小便，无论发生什么，你都必须有好的待遇。

So if your dog isn't responding, chances are maybe you're trying to tip with singles.

因此，如果您的狗没有反应，很可能您正在尝试给单身狗小费。

Andrew Huberman: I love it.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我喜欢它。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

Well, thank you for sharing the roles you see yourself in and the ones that you'd like to step into more.

好吧，感谢您分享您认为自己扮演的角色以及您想更多地扮演的角色。

I certainly feel I have the jurisdiction to say that you are an exceptional experimentalist and a phenomenal teacher.

我当然觉得我有权说您是一位杰出的实验家和一位杰出的老师。

We've seen this across so many--

我们在很多地方都看到过这样的情况——

Tim Ferriss: Thank you.

蒂姆·费里斯：谢谢。

Andrew Huberman: You're welcome.

安德鲁·休伯曼： 不客气。

And I'm not just speaking for myself, I'm speaking for so many other people as well.

我不只是为我自己说话，我也在为许多其他人说话。

We've seen this across so many domains.

我们在很多领域都看到过这种情况。

It's like blogging, podcasting, book writing, stage lecturing, being a guest on a podcast and on and on.

这就像写博客、播客、写书、舞台演讲、做播客嘉宾等等。

And in terms of the roles that you want to expand into more, I can't wait to see the illustrations that emerge.

至于你想要扩展的角色，我迫不及待地想看到出现的插图。

Yeah, please do grow that flame, because I'm excited for what comes out.

是的，请点燃火焰，因为我对结果感到兴奋。

CØCKPUNCH being just the first of them.

CØCKPUNCH 只是其中的第一个。

Tim Ferriss: Leading the charge.

蒂姆·费里斯：带头冲锋。

Andrew Huberman: And I can say because I know, because I have one and because I have observed many kids and friends who are fathers, you're going to be an exceptional father.

安德鲁·休伯曼：我可以说，因为我知道，因为我有一个父亲，因为我观察到许多孩子和朋友都是父亲，所以你将成为一位出色的父亲。

Absolutely confident of that.

对此绝对有信心。

Tim Ferriss: Thanks man.

蒂姆·费里斯：谢谢哥们。

I appreciate that.

我很欣赏这一点。

Andrew Huberman: And I want to say thanks for taking the time to talk with me today.

Andrew Huberman：我想感谢您今天抽出时间与我交谈。

I've been looking forward to this so much.

我对此非常期待。

My team knows this.

我的团队知道这一点。

We were sort of buzzing like we've had some heavy hitters on this podcast.

我们有点嗡嗡作响，就像这个播客中有一些重量级人物一样。

We only look to the top 1% in field, and they are incredibly credentialed by whatever standards we happen to be exploring.

我们只关注该领域的前 1%，无论我们碰巧正在探索什么标准，他们都具有令人难以置信的资质。

And they have to be people that I really want to talk to.

他们必须是我真正想与之交谈的人。

So I have so much respect for what you do and the way you do it.

所以我非常尊重你所做的事情和你做事的方式。

You've certainly inspired me.

你确实激励了我。

This podcast would not exist.

这个播客将不存在。

I don't think the genre of podcasting would exist, and look the way that it does had you not made the decision to start podcasting.

我不认为播客这种类型会存在，而且如果你没有决定开始播客的话，它确实是这样的。

And in anticipation of this episode, I did put out a ping on Twitter for questions.

考虑到这一集，我确实在 Twitter 上发布了问题。

And there were many, many of them that — maybe we'll do a Q & A sometime, maybe not, who knows?

其中有很多很多——也许我们某个时候会进行问答，也许不会，谁知道呢？

But one of the questions that really stood out to me, know, how does Tim feel about all these other people coming into all the spaces that he's worked and doing successful work that builds off so much of what he's done?

但对我来说真正突出的问题之一是，蒂姆对所有其他人进入他工作过的所有领域并在他所做的大部分工作的基础上做出成功的工作有何感想？

And I'll let you answer.

我会让你回答。

But for me, I can say that I've been positively inspired and built so much of what we've been doing here and what I think about based on the ways that you've podcasted and communicate with the public and maintain your stance and integrity in the way that you interact with people, it's really inspiring.

但对我来说，我可以说，我受到了积极的启发，并根据你们播客和与公众沟通的方式以及在与人互动的方式中保持立场和正直的方式，建立了我们在这里所做的很多事情和我的想法，这真的很鼓舞人心。

And you've always been so gracious to me and so humble and so giving.

你对我总是那么仁慈、谦虚、乐于奉献。

And at the same time, I know there's a fierce guy in there who likes to get it done.

与此同时，我知道那里有一个凶猛的家伙，喜欢完成任务。

So once again, thanks for being first man in.

再次感谢您成为第一个进来的人。

Thanks for taking on all the roles that you have and that you are and that you will, and thanks for being a giver.

感谢您承担起您所拥有的、您现在的以及您将要扮演的所有角色，并感谢您成为一个付出者。

We all benefit.

我们都受益。

Tim Ferriss: Thanks, Andrew.

蒂姆·费里斯：谢谢，安德鲁。

I really appreciate you saying all that.

我真的很感谢你说这一切。

And I want people to just get after it, take things seriously, have fun, and be really good.

我希望人们能够追求它，认真对待事情，享受乐趣，并且真正优秀。

So watching, for instance, what you've done, which has been so spectacular, so well executed, makes me super happy.

因此，例如，看到你所做的事情，它是如此壮观，执行得如此出色，让我非常高兴。

And I don't view anyone as competition in the podcasting world.

我不认为任何人是播客世界的竞争对手。

For instance, in the book world, I don't view it that way either.

例如，在书籍世界中，我也不这么认为。

And I just hope that people keep experimenting, pushing the envelope.

我只是希望人们继续尝试，挑战极限。

And if people aren't, say, getting better over time, if people aren't following who are substantially better than me in all of these ways, then I would be super disappointed.

如果人们没有随着时间的推移而变得更好，如果人们没有追随在所有这些方面都比我更好的人，那么我会非常失望。

So every time I see someone doing something really impressive or doing something I never would have thought of, I get so extremely excited.

因此，每当我看到有人做一些令人印象深刻的事情或做一些我从未想过的事情时，我都会感到非常兴奋。

I find it really fun to watch.

我觉得观看真的很有趣。

So appreciate you also just getting out there and hard charging and taking your podcast as seriously as you do.

因此，感谢您也走出去，努力充电，并像您一样认真对待您的播客。

I mean, I've seen the notes, I've seen the setup.

我的意思是，我已经看过笔记，我已经看过设置。

I've met the team.

我已经见过团队了。

It's very inspiring for me.

这对我来说非常有启发。

Also makes me want to dust off my cleats and get back on the field.

也让我想掸掉鞋上的灰尘，回到球场上。

Andrew Huberman: Man, you've never left the field and you've had a hand in it all.

Andrew Huberman：伙计，你从未离开过这个领域，而且你已经参与了这一切。

So thank you so much and hope you'll come back and visit us again here.

非常感谢您，并希望您能再次光临我们这里。

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, I hope so.

蒂姆·费里斯：是的，我希望如此。

It's been a real pleasure.

这真是一种乐趣。

I've been looking forward to this for a long time as well, and I appreciate you inviting me on.

我也期待这个很久了，很感谢你邀请我。

Andrew Huberman: Till next time.

安德鲁·休伯曼：下次见。

Tim Ferriss: Till next time, man.

蒂姆·费里斯：下次见，伙计。

Andrew Huberman: Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Tim Ferriss.

Andrew Huberman：感谢您参加今天与 Tim Ferriss 的讨论。

I hope you found it to be as informative and as actionable as I did.

我希望您能像我一样发现它内容丰富且具有可操作性。

For links to Tim's books, as well as for a link to his weekly blog, please see the show note captions.

有关蒂姆书籍的链接以及他每周博客的链接，请参阅节目注释标题。

You'll also find a link to Tim's podcast, The Tim Ferriss podcast, and I highly recommend that you subscribe and listen to The Tim Ferriss podcast.

您还可以找到 Tim Ferriss 播客的链接，我强烈建议您订阅并收听 Tim Ferriss 播客。

If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.

如果您正在学习或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。

That's a terrific, zero-cost way to support us.

这是支持我们的绝佳且零成本的方式。

In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on both Spotify and Apple.

此外，请在 Spotify 和 Apple 上订阅该播客。

And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.

在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。

If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests that you'd like me to include on the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.

如果您对我有疑问，或者对您希望我在 Huberman Lab 播客中包含的播客或嘉宾有意见，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。

I do read all the comments.

我确实阅读了所有评论。

Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.

另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。

That's the best way to support this podcast.

这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。

Not on today's episode, but on many previous episodes of the Huberman Lab podcast, we discuss supplements.

不是在今天的节目中，而是在 Huberman Lab 播客的许多之前的节目中，我们讨论了补充剂。

While supplements aren't necessary for everybody, many people derived tremendous benefit from them for things like enhancing sleep, for hormone support and for focus.

虽然补充剂并不是每个人都需要的，但许多人从它们中获得了巨大的好处，例如增强睡眠、激素支持和集中注意力。

The Huberman Lab podcast is proud to have partnered with Momentous Supplements.

Huberman Lab 播客很荣幸与 Momentous Supplements 合作。

To see the supplements discussed on the Huberman Lab podcast, go to livemomentous spelled O-U-S.

要查看 Huberman Lab 播客上讨论的补充内容，请访问 livemomentous 拼写的 O-U-S。

So that's livemomentous.com/huberman.

这就是 livemomentous.com/huberman。

Again, that's livemomentous.com/huberman.

再说一遍，这是 livemomentous.com/huberman。

If you're not already following us on social media, I am hubermanlab on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and LinkedIn.

如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我们，我是 Instagram、Twitter、Facebook 和 LinkedIn 上的 hubermanlab。

And at all those places I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which often does not overlap with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast.

在所有这些地方，我讨论了科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分通常与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容不重叠。

So again, it's hubermanlab on all social media platforms.

再说一遍，所有社交媒体平台上都是 hubermanlab。

In addition, if you haven't subscribed to our Neural Network newsletter, it's a zero-cost monthly newsletter that provides summaries of podcast episodes as well as toolkits, for instance, toolkits for optimizing sleep, or toolkits for learning and neuroplasticity, or for deliberate cold exposure, or for dopamine, and on and on.

此外，如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，这是一份零成本的每月时事通讯，提供播客剧集摘要以及工具包，例如优化睡眠的工具包，或学习和神经可塑性的工具包，或故意冷暴露的工具包，或多巴胺的工具包等等。

To sign up for the Neural Network newsletter, simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu, scroll down to Newsletter, and provide your email.

要注册神经网络新闻通讯，只需访问 hubermanlab.com，进入菜单，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后提供您的电子邮件。

We do not share your email with anybody.

我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。

Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Tim Ferriss.

再次感谢您参加今天与蒂姆·费里斯的讨论。

And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.

最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。