The Science & Art of Comedy & Creativity | Tom Segura

Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science based tools for everyday life.

欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。

Thanks for having me, cuz.

谢谢你邀请我，因为。

We'll let people know who don't already know.

我们会让那些还不知道的人知道。

Yes, we are related.

是的，我们有关系。

Yes, we are related.

是的，我们有关系。

People have asked me so many times the details, and I was trying to-- because I learned about it obviously later that it was like my mom's great grandmother and your father's great grandmother were first cousins-- they're both Basque.

人们多次问过我细节，而我试图——因为我显然后来才知道，就像我妈妈的曾祖母和你父亲的曾祖母是表兄弟姐妹一样——他们都是巴斯克人。

So Northern Spain cousins.

所以西班牙北部的表兄弟。

And my dad was on the podcast a little while ago.

不久前我爸爸也在播客上。

How did that go?

进展如何？

Because I remember we talked about him coming on.

因为我记得我们谈论过他即将上场。

It was great.

太棒了。

I mean, he's a theoretical physicist by training.

我的意思是，他是一位受过训练的理论物理学家。

So we got to talk about physics, but we also got to talk about life.

所以我们必须谈论物理，但我们也必须谈论生活。

And I learned a lot from him.

我从他身上学到了很多东西。

Did you?

你有吗？

I learned a lot about him that I--

我对他了解了很多，我——

In that podcast?

在那个播客里？

Yeah.

是的。

Really?

真的吗？

Yeah.

是的。

I'll send it to you if you're ever suffering from insomnia.

如果你失眠的话我会把它发给你。

I would love to listen to it.

我很想听听。

He's a theoretical-- I didn't even know that.

他是个理论家——我什至不知道这一点。

Yeah, theorist chaos theory.

是的，理论家混沌理论。

And now he's into quantum internet.

现在他进入了量子互联网。

Yeah, it's crazy.

是的，这太疯狂了。

Where does he reside now?

他现在住在哪里？

Northern California.

北加州。

Still working.

还在工作。

Wow.

哇。

Yeah.

是的。

81 still working.

81 还在工作。

Look at our different sides of the year.

看看我们这一年的不同侧面。

Your dad is a theoretical physicist, and my mom plays bridge.

你爸爸是理论物理学家，我妈妈打桥牌。

Yeah, but you-- but you can make a half-court shot.

是的，但是你——但是你可以进行半场投篮。

I saw the clip of you in lethal shooter.

我在《致命射手》中看到了你的片段。

We'll put-- we'll put a link to it.

我们将放置一个链接。

OK.

好的。

Yeah.

是的。

I mean, you're an excellent basketball player.

我的意思是，你是一名出色的篮球运动员。

I'm not--

我不是——

High level.

高水平。

So very high level.

所以水平非常高。

Did you play ball growing up at all?

你从小到大都打球吗？

No.

不。

You skateboarded?

你玩滑板吗？

Foot sports.

足部运动。

Soccer, skateboarding.

足球、滑板。

I'm pretty coordinated with my feet.

我的脚很协调。

Well, the kid of an Argentine.

嗯，阿根廷人的孩子。

You got to give it a shot.

你必须尝试一下。

Yeah.

是的。

Every kid where I grew up played soccer.

我长大的每个孩子都踢足球。

Really?

真的吗？

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

Obsessed.

痴迷。

Were you good at soccer?

你足球踢得好吗？

I was all right.

我没事。

Played goalie.

担任守门员。

I like playing goalie or fullback.

我喜欢打守门员或后卫。

I like to wait back there and just-- then just kick people.

我喜欢等回去然后踢人。

That was fun.

那很有趣。

Maybe you should get into lacrosse or something.

也许你应该参加长曲棍球之类的运动。

No, I like running.

不，我喜欢跑步。

I ran cross country in my senior year.

大四时我跑过越野赛。

You ran cross country?

你越野跑了？

I did, yeah.

我做到了，是的。

I was a little lighter than I am now.

我当时比现在轻一点。

I'm like 210 now.

我现在好像210了

It's probably 160, 170.

大概是160、170。

OK.

好的。

Yeah.

是的。

Like two-mile races were OK.

就像两英里的比赛还可以。

I just did 5K.

我刚刚跑了5K。

Oh, yeah?

哦，是吗？

Two days ago.

两天前。

Yeah.

是的。

How'd that go?

怎么样？

I hated that, I knew I had to do it, and so I just made myself-- I was like, you got to do it, so it's going to suck.

我讨厌那样，我知道我必须这样做，所以我就让自己——我想，你必须这样做，所以它会很糟糕。

You trained for it?

你为此训练过吗？

Well, the training for me is like, just get in a bunch of three-mile runs, right?

好吧，对我来说，训练就像是进行一系列三英里的跑步，对吗？

So, I mean, I would do them purposely at a slow pace, try to stay as close to zone 2 cardio as possible, just to get used to the mileage.

所以，我的意思是，我会故意以缓慢的速度进行训练，尝试尽可能接近 2 区有氧运动，只是为了习惯里程数。

And then we get there because it was our 5K like it was-- I put it on with Bert and Spartan race and it was a--

然后我们到达那里，因为那是我们的 5K，就像它一样——我把它放在伯特和斯巴达比赛中，那是——

Did 5K?

5K了吗？

Shirt off, the whole thing.

脱掉衬衫，整个事情。

Of course.

当然。

What are you?

你是做什么的？

Crazy.

疯狂的。

Wait vest, wait belly.

等背心，等肚皮。

I mean sorry, bro.

我的意思是对不起，兄弟。

Dude, yeah.

老兄，是的。

He was--

他是——

We give him a hard time because we're still trying to get Bert to quit drinking or reduce his drinking.

我们让他为难是因为我们仍在努力让伯特戒酒或减少饮酒量。

I think he's reduced his drinking a little bit.

我认为他减少了一点饮酒量。

No, OK.

不，好吧。

So, yeah, we did-- we did one last year in Pasadena.

所以，是的，我们去年在帕萨迪纳做了一个。

We did the Rose Bowl.

我们参加了玫瑰碗比赛。

And so this time we did Raymond James in Tampa.

所以这次我们在坦帕做了雷蒙德·詹姆斯。

And it was just the 2 Bears 5K.

这只是 2 Bears 5K 比赛。

We had more than three times people sign up this year for Tampa.

今年有超过三倍的人报名参加坦帕。

So we had close to 8,000 people there.

所以我们那里有近 8,000 人。

Wow.

哇。

And Jelly Roll came out, Jason Kelce, Tristan Wirfs, a bunch of Jon Feliciano, like all these football players and--

Jelly Roll 出来了，Jason Kelce、Tristan Wirfs、一群 Jon Feliciano，就像所有这些足球运动员一样——

Fun.

有趣。

And it was a very fun day, a very fun event.

这是非常有趣的一天，非常有趣的活动。

But here's the thing.

但事情是这样的。

Like at the Rose Bowl, the path was basically through the parking lot and then on these side roads in Pasadena and they loop it out and then you cross back basically across this parking lot and you hit the 3.1.

就像在玫瑰碗比赛一样，这条路基本上是穿过停车场，然后在帕萨迪纳的这些小路上，他们把它绕出去，然后你基本上穿过这个停车场，然后你就上了 3.1。

One long incline.

一个长斜坡。

Bro, so, like, you're doing like a quarter mile up and then it would flatten out, then you go down.

兄弟，所以，就像，你上升了四分之一英里，然后它会变平，然后你下降。

You're like, oh, this is nice.

你会说，哦，这很好。

And then you go up again.

然后你又上去。

But I was just-- I think when you're also running with people, you get tunnel vision.

但我只是——我认为当你也与人一起跑步时，你的视野会变得狭窄。

Yeah.

是的。

And you see somebody, you're like, that person's ahead of me.

当你看到某人时，你会想，那个人在我前面。

Like, this pig is in front of me right now.

就像，这只猪现在就在我面前。

Are you competitive by nature?

你天生有竞争力吗？

Yeah, I think so.

是的，我想是的。

And so I would-- like, I definitely was like I have to beat Bert.

所以我想——我肯定觉得我必须击败伯特。

I have to beat--

我必须打败——

You have to beat Bert.

你必须打败伯特。

Jon and my friend Feliciano, I was like, I have to beat these guys.

乔恩和我的朋友费里西亚诺，我当时想，我必须击败这些家伙。

They're both like fucking 300 pounds.

他们俩都他妈的300磅。

I'm definitely beating them.

我绝对能打败他们。

And so that was just like in my head every time I would see-- think of them, I was just have to keep going.

所以这就像每次我看到——想到他们时在我脑海里一样，我必须继续前进。

The best.

最好的。

You like running?

你喜欢跑步吗？

I love working out with weights.

我喜欢负重锻炼。

I've been doing that since I was 16, but I love running.

我从 16 岁起就开始跑步，但我喜欢跑步。

I love--

我爱——

You love running?

你喜欢跑步吗？

I'm running three times a week, a long run, a medium run and a short run.

我每周跑步三次，长跑、中跑和短跑。

What's a long run?

什么叫长远？

An hour, hour and a half long and slow every Sunday.

每个周日一个小时、一个半小时又长又慢。

And then in the middle of the week, a 30-minute run faster.

然后在一周的中间，快跑 30 分钟。

And then one day a week, I do that max heart rate VO2 thing, where I warm up, sprint, walk, sprint walk, sprint walk sometimes on the Airdyne bike, but usually running.

然后每周有一天，我会进行最大心率摄氧量训练，即热身、冲刺、步行、冲刺步行、冲刺步行，有时会使用 Airdyne 自行车，但通常是跑步。

Yeah.

是的。

I love running.

我喜欢跑步。

In fact, I mostly lift so that my body doesn't hurt when I run.

事实上，我主要是举重，这样跑步时我的身体就不会受伤。

I like being strong.

我喜欢坚强。

Have you always been into this?

你一直热衷于此吗？

Yeah, since I was about 16, I started running.

是的，从我16岁左右开始，我就开始跑步。

I just found I could just go and go.

我刚刚发现我可以走走走。

Probably have a lot of slow twitch muscle, and I'm reasonably strong.

可能有很多慢肌，而且我相当强壮。

But, I mean, if I train just for endurance, if I start doing two long runs per week, I just feel like I can just go forever.

但是，我的意思是，如果我只是为了耐力而训练，如果我开始每周进行两次长跑，我只是觉得我可以永远走下去。

Really?

真的吗？

Yeah.

是的。

It's probably just a genetic--

这可能只是遗传因素——

What do you cover in that 60 to 90-minute run?

60 到 90 分钟的跑步内容包括哪些内容？

Depends on how in condition I am.

取决于我的状况如何。

But you were talking about hills.

但你说的是山。

When I lived in the Bay Area, I used to do this run behind the Berkeley campus, the Strawberry Canyon trail.

当我住在湾区时，我经常在伯克利校园后面的草莓峡谷步道上跑步。

And that's all--

这就是全部——

Incline--

倾斜--

Basically winding up, winding up until you take the long cruise down.

基本上是结束，结束直到你进行长途巡航。

I would do that with a weight vest.

我会用负重背心做到这一点。

If I go from there out to Austin and on a Sunday, and then I can cover a lot of distance in a 60-minute run.

如果我在周日从那里去奥斯汀，那么我可以在 60 分钟的跑步中跑完很长的距离。

But if I just train on the flat, then you get used to just of going long and slow.

但如果我只是在平地上训练，那么你就会习惯长而慢的训练。

Yeah.

是的。

So I don't know the exact distance, but it was not unusual when I was in graduate school to head out on a Sunday morning, just hydrated caffeine and do 10, 12 miles.

所以我不知道确切的距离，但当我在读研究生时，周日早上出门，喝点水咖啡因，跑 10、12 英里并不罕见。

Wow.

哇。

But now it's probably more like 6, 8.

但现在可能更像是6、8。

OK.

好的。

6 to 8.

6至8。

But also with a weighted vest?

还要搭配加重背心？

Sometimes with a-- I use a vest.

有时我会穿背心。

They're not a sponsor, which is fun to always mention things that aren't a sponsor too, because I love this weight vest.

他们不是赞助商，总是提到不是赞助商的事情很有趣，因为我喜欢这件重量背心。

It's called OMORPHO, and it fits pretty snug.

它叫 OMORPHO，非常合身。

It's not like one of these ones that looks like you're a suicide bomber or a cop or something.

这不像那些看起来像自杀式炸弹袭击者或警察或其他什么的人。

Yeah.

是的。

It sits really close to the body.

它非常靠近身体。

It zips up.

它拉上拉链。

And it's got these heavy ball bearings in it.

里面有这些沉重的滚珠轴承。

So it's only about 10 to 12 pounds.

所以重量只有10到12磅左右。

Yeah.

是的。

So it's not like a super heavy weight vest.

所以它不像超重的背心。

But it's enough that when you take that weight vest off on a-- run, you feel like a God.

但这就足够了，当你在跑步时脱下那件负重背心时，你会感觉自己像上帝一样。

I will say that as much as I say I hate running, the fact that I made myself keep doing-- I was doing daily runs, almost like five days a week, just of getting used to the mileage, obviously, it becomes easier.

我想说的是，尽管我说我讨厌跑步，但事实上，我让自己继续做——我每天都跑步，几乎每周五天，只是为了习惯里程数，显然，它变得更容易。

And then you go like, OK, I can do this.

然后你就会说，好吧，我能做到。

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge sponsor, Maui Nui Venison.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢赞助商 Maui Nui Venison。

Maui Nui Venison is the most nutrient dense and delicious red meat available.

毛伊努伊鹿肉是营养最丰富、最美味的红肉。

It's also ethically sourced.

它也是有道德来源的。

Maui Nui hunts and harvests wild axis deer on the island of Maui.

毛伊努伊 (Maui Nui) 在毛伊岛上狩猎和收获野生轴鹿。

This solves the problem of managing an invasive species, while also creating an extraordinary source of protein.

这解决了管理入侵物种的问题，同时也创造了非凡的蛋白质来源。

I feel like it's a goal to let my mind drift, because sometimes the negative side of it is like you're doing a run and your mind is like, this sucks, right.

我觉得这是一个让我的思绪随波逐流的目标，因为有时它的负面影响就像你在跑步时你的思绪会想，这很糟糕，对吧。

And you're thinking about how much time is left, and that doesn't produce anything, and it's not an enjoyable thing.

而你在想还剩下多少时间，这不会产生任何结果，这不是一件令人愉快的事情。

Yeah, there's something to be said for these states of wordlessness, where you're not constructing things in complete sentences.

是的，对于这些无言的状态有一些话要说，在这种状态下，你不能用完整的句子来构建事物。

There's no sensory input like through a phone or through even-- I do listen to podcasts or books when I run sometimes the long run.

没有像通过电话或什至那样的感官输入——当我有时长跑时，我确实会听播客或书籍。

But there's this idea that a lot of learning and creativity is about purging all the noise.

但有一种观点认为，大量的学习和创造力都是为了消除所有噪音。

And I find that those long runs, they just come out of them just feeling like a bunch of clutter, just got cleared more than I had some insight during the run itself.

我发现那些长跑，他们只是感觉就像一堆杂乱，只是比我在跑步过程中获得的一些洞察力更清晰。

Yeah.

是的。

Incidentally, 90% of the effect of exercise on improving brain function when it comes to long, slow distance work is that it raises your level of alertness and arousal.

顺便说一句，在长距离、慢距离工作中，运动对改善大脑功能的作用 90% 是因为它提高了你的警觉性和唤醒水平。

So you can do really great work afterwards.

这样你之后就可以做非常出色的工作。

Yeah.

是的。

High-intensity stuff has a bunch of other effects, brain-derived neurotrophic factor, et cetera.

高强度的东西还有很多其他影响，脑源性神经营养因子等等。

But when you see exercise improves brain function, exercise makes you smarter.

但当你看到运动可以改善大脑功能时，运动就会让你变得更聪明。

Most of that is by way of the way how exercise increases your level of alertness and puts you in that nice state like, oh, now I can sit down and focus.

其中大部分是通过锻炼如何提高你的警觉程度并使你处于一种良好的状态，就像，哦，现在我可以坐下来集中注意力了。

Yeah, my busiest day is-- sometimes I have a very busy day.

是的，我最忙的一天是——有时我会度过非常忙碌的一天。

If I start that day with a hard workout, I end up having no problem tackling that day.

如果我从那天开始就进行艰苦的锻炼，那么我最终会毫无问题地应对这一天。

Isn't that wild?

那不是狂野吗？

It is wild because sometimes, I'll have a day where I have to arrive at my studio, let's say, at 10:00 AM for something.

这很疯狂，因为有时候，我有一天必须到达我的工作室，比如说，上午 10:00 去做某事。

And it's just like it's going to be recordings, meetings, pitch meetings, and then leave here, go to this thing.

就像这将是录音、会议、推介会议，然后离开这里，去做这件事。

It's going to be the entire day.

这将是一整天。

And if I get myself to the gym and I get in a good hour lift, I come in and I'll notice everyone's like, you look like you're in a good mood.

如果我去健身房并且坐了一个小时的电梯，我进来后我会注意到每个人都说，你看起来心情很好。

And I'm like, yeah, I feel great, and I'm ready.

我想，是的，我感觉很好，我已经准备好了。

And then I'm ready for the day.

然后我就准备好迎接这一天了。

Yeah, this is one of the real hidden secrets of exercise that I'm trying to make less hidden and less of a secret that Jocko clearly understands with his 4:30 AM wake ups and workouts that you're describing now is that-- won't go into too much detail here because I want to ask you questions.

是的，这是运动中真正隐藏的秘密之一，我正在努力让 Jocko 通过凌晨 4:30 的起床和你现在描述的锻炼清楚地了解这一秘密，这里不会详细介绍，因为我想问你问题。

Yes.

是的。

So people who don't have energy to exercise-- exercise gives your body energy by way of adrenaline.

因此，对于那些没有精力锻炼的人来说，锻炼可以通过肾上腺素为你的身体提供能量。

And then that adrenaline acts on this nerve called the vagus nerve, which communicates to the areas of your brain that release dopamine and something called norepinephrine.

然后肾上腺素作用于迷走神经，它与大脑中释放多巴胺和去甲肾上腺素的区域进行通信。

It basically wakes your brain up also.

它基本上也会唤醒你的大脑。

Yeah.

是的。

Whereas if you hit the work of the day fresh, you're generating the adrenaline drink from all that stuff.

然而，如果你刚开始一天的工作，你就会从所有这些东西中产生肾上腺素。

This is when people feel a bit more anxious.

这是人们感到更加焦虑的时候。

They feel a bit more irritable, they feel a bit more tired.

他们感觉有点烦躁，感觉更累。

The way that I always feel like is-- a lot of times when you wake up, you have what I would describe as a fog.

我总有这样的感觉——很多时候当你醒来时，你会看到我所说的迷雾。

Sometimes--

有时——

Oh, good.

哦，很好。

It's not just me.

不只是我。

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

So that fog sometimes you carry it.

所以有时你会带着它。

It's just in the day and you're just like, oh, there's this.

就在白天，你就像，哦，就是这个。

But I always feel like that exercise just completely wipes it out, where you're like, oh, like, I'm actually alert now and I don't feel that post wake up, just fog that sits there.

但我总觉得这种练习完全消除了它，你会觉得，哦，就像，我现在实际上很警觉，我感觉不到那个帖子醒来，只是坐在那里的雾气。

That's my favorite thing to knock out.

这是我最喜欢敲掉的东西。

I love that.

我喜欢那个。

I've got this crazy thing that I do now.

我现在正在做这件疯狂的事。

You can try this.

你可以试试这个。

I bought a 70-pounds kettlebell.

我买了一个70磅的壶铃。

It's about a third of my body weight, and I have it set in the hallway.

它大约是我体重的三分之一，我把它放在走廊上。

So when I get up because I wake up really groggy, really foggy, I grab that thing and I suitcase-- carry it to the end and back twice, and then I switch hands and I suitcase, carry it back to the-- end and back twice.

所以，当我起床时，因为我醒来时非常昏昏沉沉，非常迷糊，我抓住那个东西和我的手提箱——把它带到最后并返回两次，然后我换手和我的手提箱，将它带到最后并返回两次。

Just trying to teach my body that it can do work right away.

只是想告诉我的身体它可以立即工作。

Yeah.

是的。

It's that phenomenon of setting your alarm clock for 7 AM, you wake up at 6:59.

这就是将闹钟设置为早上 7 点，你在 6 点 59 分醒来的现象。

Yeah.

是的。

What happened like your brain is clocking things in--

就像你的大脑正在记录发生的事情一样——

To me so many times, and I always feel like that's such a bizarre-- also, I'm not a big napper.

对我来说很多次了，我总觉得这很奇怪——而且，我不是一个小睡的人。

Sometimes I'll be like, I'm going to lay down-- I have an hour window before I have to go do something in a hotel, I'm on the road and I'll be like, well, just in case I fall asleep, I'll set the alarm and I'll lay there, eyes closed and a look as it's one minute before--

有时我会想，我要躺下——在我必须去酒店做某事之前，我有一个小时的时间，我在路上，我会想，好吧，以防万一我睡着了，我会设置闹钟，然后我会躺在那里，闭上眼睛，看起来就像一分钟前一样——

And your brain's clocking it.

你的大脑正在计时。

There was a study a couple of years ago, where when people are in rapid eye movement sleep, you're basically paralyzed.

几年前有一项研究表明，当人们处于快速眼动睡眠状态时，人基本上处于瘫痪状态。

The brain is very, very active.

大脑非常非常活跃。

That's the phenomenon of rapid eye movement sleep.

这就是快动眼睡眠现象。

It's very bizarre brain state.

这是非常奇怪的大脑状态。

Wow.

哇。

So there's-- I'm hitting with a lot of data here, but it's well known now that if you give students a test and their phone is in their bag in the room, they perform less well than if their phone is in their bag in another room.

所以，我在这里使用了大量数据，但现在众所周知，如果你给学生进行测试，而他们的手机放在房间的包里，他们的表现会比手机放在另一个房间的包里时表现要差。

Seriously?

严重地？

This is true for adults, too.

对于成年人来说也是如此。

Your brain is tracking potential movements, potential thoughts, potential actions, like the way brain circuits work is to create dominoes of circuit sequences.

你的大脑正在追踪潜在的运动、潜在的想法、潜在的行动，就像大脑电路的工作方式就是创建电路序列的多米诺骨牌一样。

So when you're up-- for instance, you've gone on stage so many times to do comedy.

所以当你起来的时候——比如，你已经上台表演很多次喜剧了。

Yeah.

是的。

As you walk out, your brain is cueing up a whole library of things related to that without you realizing it.

当你走出去时，你的大脑会在你没有意识到的情况下提示出一整套与之相关的东西。

Yeah, yeah.

是啊是啊。

It's all context dependent behavior.

这都是依赖于上下文的行为。

And when you get home, it's a different set of context dependent behaviors.

当你回到家时，这是一组不同的依赖于环境的行为。

That's insane.

那太疯狂了。

Yeah, what's your writing process.

是的，你的写作过程是怎样的？

Let's talk about comedy.

我们来谈谈喜剧吧。

I've got about a gazillion questions.

我有无数的问题。

I'm going to try and make them really succinct.

我将尝试让它们变得非常简洁。

What is your typical process of capturing-- you call them bits?

您捕获的典型过程是什么——您将其称为“位”？

Yeah, for stand up it's a bit.

是的，站起来有点。

Yeah.

是的。

What's your typical process of capturing ideas?

您捕捉想法的典型过程是什么？

Do you voice memo into the phone?

你用手机语音备忘录吗？

Do you write things down?

你把事情写下来吗？

I've done pretty much every version of it; voice notes while high.

我几乎已经完成了它的每个版本；语音笔记高时。

Sometimes you listen to them later and you're like, holy shit.

有时你稍后再听他们的声音，你会想，天哪。

Are you a cannabis user?

您是大麻使用者吗？

I mean, sometimes.

我的意思是，有时。

I'm not like a heavy user, but a lot of times at night if you take something and you go to sleep-- you're trying to go to sleep, your brain's like, nah, I got ideas.

我不像一个重度使用者，但很多时候在晚上，如果你服用一些东西然后去睡觉——你试图去睡觉，你的大脑会说，不，我有想法。

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

I haven't done cannabis in a long time ago.

我已经很久没有吸过大麻了。

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

哦，是啊，是啊，是啊。

And then sometimes you listen-- because you're convinced you're like, this is one of the most brilliant ideas.

有时你会听——因为你确信这是最绝妙的想法之一。

Have you ever had great ideas that stick?

您是否曾有过坚持不懈的好主意？

Yeah, I've had-- I've had-- I've had good ones that stick.

是的，我有过——我有过——我有过一些坚持下来的好东西。

Sometimes the wording is a little off.

有时候措辞有点不对劲。

But yeah, I've had-- I've had ones that I actually do enjoy afterwards.

但是，是的，我曾经有过一些事后我确实很喜欢的经历。

And then sometimes you're like-- you can hear yourself smiling.

有时你会听到自己在微笑。

Because you can tell someone's emotion by their voice.

因为你可以通过一个人的声音来判断他的情绪。

So I can hear that I'm like, dude, then like--

所以我可以听到我就像，伙计，然后就像——

Oh, because you're recording?

哦，因为你在录音？

I'm recording into-- in my phone.

我正在用我的手机录音。

So let me get the process.

那么让我了解一下流程。

So you're heading up to sleep and you take an edible.

所以你要睡觉了，你吃点东西。

Yeah.

是的。

This is comedy school 101.

这是喜剧学校101。

No, I'm just kidding.

不，我只是开玩笑。

Hey, listen, you're the pro, and you go to voice memos.

嘿，听着，你是专业人士，你可以去语音备忘录。

You're there, eyes closed, and you start riffing on something.

你在那里，闭上眼睛，开始即兴演奏一些东西。

Yeah, it's like you're-- it feels like it's separate from you.

是的，就像你——感觉它与你是分开的。

Because the right, I guess, dosage of THC, it does make your mind run.

我想，因为正确剂量的四氢大麻酚确实能让你的思维运转。

And sometimes you have less self-awareness.

有时你的自我意识较差。

It's just like, the nice way to think about it is that your brain always puts things on a shelf for you to get through your day, things that make you uncomfortable even.

就像，一个好的思考方式是，你的大脑总是把一些东西放在架子上供你度过这一天，甚至让你不舒服的东西。

It sounds terrible.

听起来很可怕。

It can be terrible.

这可能很可怕。

It sounds awful.

听起来很糟糕。

That can be like often what-- like too much is where you can get into paranoia.

这就像经常发生的那样——太多就会让你陷入偏执狂。

But I think if you have a dosage that is not too strong, so it's not like uncomfortable, it just lets the mind run.

但我认为如果你的剂量不太强，那么就不会感到不舒服，它只是让头脑运转。

It's like stream of consciousness happens.

就像意识流发生一样。

You don't actually write things out full form?

你实际上并没有写出完整的内容吗？

No, I don't write them out full form.

不，我不会把它们完整地写出来。

And then I just go on stage with the kernel of the idea that I a blueprint of like, well, here's what I'm going to try to attack and then see what happens as I speak it.

然后我就带着这个想法的核心走上台，我的蓝图就像，嗯，这就是我要尝试攻击的东西，然后看看当我说话时会发生什么。

But when you're trying new material, you're not doing that for a Netflix special.

但当你尝试新材料时，你并不是为了看 Netflix 的特别节目。

You're doing that-- and it's the term working out like you go to the comedy club on a Tuesday night and you're working on-- you're trying new material, seeing how it lands.

你正在这样做——这个术语就像你周二晚上去喜剧俱乐部一样，你正在努力——你正在尝试新材料，看看它如何落地。

In real time.

实时。

Yeah, yeah.

是啊是啊。

Whoa.

哇哦。

Yeah--

是啊——

That's typical of--

这是典型的——

I think there's different camps of it.

我认为有不同的阵营。

Also, there's so many different-- stand up is so popular that there's all these different styles and there's setup punch guys, like what you would call almost pure joke writers; Sam Morril, Dave Attell, Mark Normand, those guys I feel they do a lot of here is-- it's the economy of words.

而且，还有很多不同的——单口喜剧如此受欢迎，以至于有各种不同的风格，还有设置拳击手，就像你所说的几乎纯粹的笑话作家；萨姆·莫里尔、戴夫·阿特尔、马克·诺曼德，这些人我觉得他们在这里做了很多——这就是语言的节约。

It's like clear premise setup and then boom, punchline.

这就像清晰的前提设置，然后繁荣，妙语。

So it would be like oh-- I'm thinking about Normand.

所以这就像是哦——我在想诺曼德。

I won't try and do one of his jokes, but I like Normand's comedy skateboarder too.

我不会尝试模仿他的笑话，但我也喜欢诺曼德的喜剧滑板手。

Same non-biological first family.

同样的非亲生第一家庭。

Yeah.

是的。

On vacation and we're picking out rooms and then at some point, there's a punch line pivot.

在度假时，我们正在挑选房间，然后在某个时候，出现了一个妙语关键点。

OK.

好的。

So there's-- some of those are-- especially when you feel like they're quite short, if it's over quickly, that's going to a lot of times be something that you knew I'm going to say it exactly like this.

所以，其中一些是，尤其是当你觉得它们很短的时候，如果很快就结束了，很多时候你都知道我会这样说。

It's the most traditional form of a joke.

这是最传统的笑话形式。

Here's the setup, here's the punch line.

这是设置，这是妙语。

If something works or you feel like it's a beginning, it's the start of a thread that could work.

如果某件事有效或者你觉得它是一个开始，那么它就是一个可行的线程的开始。

Do you end up writing it down for later?

你最终会写下来供以后使用吗？

Like, you're queuing yourself-- the walk with my son bit or something like that or it's just-- or it's all in your head?

就像，你自己在排队——和我儿子一起散步或者类似的事情，或者只是——或者这一切都在你的脑海里？

Well, you have it all in your head.

好吧，你脑子里全都有了。

And then-- I was going to show you I have this.

然后——我要向你展示我有这个。

I'll look at this before I go on stage, which is--

在上台之前我会看一下这个——

Tom showing-- me we can get a photo of this if he lets us.

汤姆向我展示，如果他允许的话，我们可以拍张照片。

It's a bunch of Sharpie written single words.

这是一堆记号笔写的单词。

Yeah.

是的。

Gitmo, jail, teacher, duck, Huberman-- just kidding.

关塔那摩监狱、监狱、老师、鸭子、休伯曼——开玩笑。

Augusta, kill my wife.

奥古斯塔，杀了我的妻子。

Yeah, it's like.

是的，就像是。

So those like--

所以那些喜欢——

Hitler, Tunisia, make shit.

希特勒，突尼斯，胡说八道。

This is amazing.

这太棒了。

Yeah, that's a set list for an hour.

是的，这是一个小时的固定清单。

If you think about the range of things in this relatively short list--

如果你考虑一下这个相对较短的列表中的内容范围——

Yeah.

是的。

As a partial representation of what goes on in Tom Segura's brain, you get a little--

作为汤姆·塞古拉大脑中所发生事情的部分表征，你会得到一些——

Well, what's interesting is that another way, I think, comedians would look at it is you start to go, these are 15-minute chunks.

嗯，有趣的是，我认为喜剧演员会以另一种方式看待它，即你开始表演，这些都是 15 分钟的片段。

Because when you do an hour, a lot of comics think of it as four 15-minute chunks, right.

因为当你拍摄一个小时时，很多漫画会将其视为四个 15 分钟的片段，对吧。

So you go like, OK, this is setting the table chunk.

所以你会说，好吧，这是设置表块。

This is like a kid's family chunk.

这就像一个孩子的家庭块。

Yeah.

是的。

So you just break it down.

所以你只需将其分解即可。

Yeah, very different.

是的，非常不同。

But I've done some lives and I have four things I'm going to cover and then but I don't know how I'm going to cover them.

但我已经完成了一些生活，我有四件事要报道，但我不知道如何报道它们。

Jordan Peterson when he goes out for his lives, I've been to them, he literally explores a topic in real time, walking back and forth across the stage for the first time.

乔丹·彼得森（Jordan Peterson）外出求生时，我去过他们那里，他确实实时探索了一个话题，第一次在舞台上来回走动。

I know this because people verify that every night he does something different, even the same city.

我知道这一点是因为人们证实他每天晚上都会做不同的事情，即使是在同一个城市。

Yeah.

是的。

He's exploring it completely in real time.

他正在完全实时地探索它。

And then other people's lives that I've been to it's clear it's pretty scripted.

然后我去过的其他人的生活很明显是照本宣科的。

They know exactly what they're going to say and when.

他们清楚地知道自己要说什么以及什么时候说。

They have a sequence, they have slides.

他们有序列，有幻灯片。

That's a good question.

这是个好问题。

I really feel like when you asked me that question, do you know the first person that I think of is actually Rick Rubin?

我真的觉得当你问我这个问题时，你知道我第一个想到的人实际上是里克·鲁宾吗？

And this is why.

这就是原因。

I remember reading that book he put out,

我记得读过他出版的那本书

"Creative Act".

“创意行动”。

And he was like, there's something about-- I'm paraphrasing here, but about having your antenna up.

他说，有一些关于——我在这里解释一下，但是关于竖起天线。

In other words, you still put out-- some part of you puts out the signal, so to speak, that you're not like, going, I need to find something funny.

换句话说，你仍然发出——你内心的某些部分发出信号，可以这么说，你不喜欢，我需要找一些有趣的东西。

But you're putting your brain in the mode of that.

但你正在让你的大脑处于这种模式。

You happen to be married to a comedian.

你碰巧嫁给了一位喜剧演员。

Yeah.

是的。

Which probably helps your home life in the sense that, you know, has she ever been offended by one of your jokes?

这可能对你的家庭生活有帮助，因为你知道，她是否曾被你的一个笑话冒犯过？

You know, early on, I remember we would have conversations where I would say-- it was more the fact that I would-- I remember, I would pitch a joke idea and she would be like that's fucking awful.

你知道，早些时候，我记得我们会进行对话，我会说——更重要的是我会——我记得，我会提出一个笑话的想法，她会觉得那太糟糕了。

TOM SEGURA: And then I told her, I go, whenever you think something is awful, I know it's going to be good on stage.

汤姆·塞古拉：然后我告诉她，我走了，每当你认为某件事很糟糕时，我知道它在舞台上会很好。

And she was like, that's horrible to say.

她说，这太可怕了。

I was like, no, it's true.

我当时想，不，这是真的。

If you have disdain for what I said, then I'm pretty confident that it's going to work.

如果你对我所说的不屑一顾，那么我非常有信心它会起作用。

And it was like that.

事情就是这样。

Has she ever offended you to the point where you're you can't tell that joke in public?

她有没有冒犯过你，以至于你不能在公共场合讲那个笑话？

Our family will suffer.

我们的家人将会受苦。

No, we've never had that conversation.

不，我们从来没有进行过这样的谈话。

Sometimes we have what makes this joke digestible conversations, where we talk about a bit.

有时我们会进行一些使这个笑话易于理解的对话，我们会谈论一些。

And we're like-- and then the punchline is like in this world.

我们就像——然后笑点就像在这个世界上。

And it's like, OK, you got to find a way to say that, that is going to be digestible to the-- so you actually look for your own advantage.

就像，好吧，你必须找到一种方式来表达，这将是可以理解的——所以你实际上是在寻找自己的优势。

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

Really.

真的。

On the other hand, comedians and what's allowed in comedy at a given time has a powerful influence on culture.

另一方面，喜剧演员和特定时期喜剧中允许的内容对文化有着强大的影响。

Yeah.

是的。

What you can say, what you can't say.

什么可以说，什么不可以说。

Has any comedian ever been canceled for what they said as part of a bit?

有没有哪个喜剧演员因为他们在某个片段中所说的话而被取消？

I mean, we've got these examples of these-- I consider them sad instances, where people break down on stage, have an interaction with someone in the audience, and it really hurts their career and it's super offensive.

我的意思是，我们有这样的例子——我认为它们是可悲的例子，人们在舞台上崩溃，与观众中的某人互动，这确实损害了他们的职业生涯，而且非常无礼。

But that's clearly not part of the bit.

但这显然不是问题的一部分。

Right.

正确的。

Has a comedian ever been canceled for, here was the bit and they're done?

有没有喜剧演员因为这样就被取消了？

I can't tell you that it comes to the top of my head--

我不能告诉你这件事浮现在我的脑海中——

Me either.

我也是。

--thinking about that.

——正在思考这个问题。

I know there's been like-- I remember there's a Canadian comic that in Canada has some bizarre-- to my experience-- free speech rules.

我知道有这样的——我记得有一部加拿大漫画，根据我的经验，加拿大有一些奇怪的言论自由规则。

Oh, OK.

哦，好吧。

I think they say comics.

我认为他们说的是漫画。

I always think--

我总是想——

No.

不。

--of Canadians as so kind and well-behaved.

——加拿大人是如此善良和举止得体。

And they have some amazing comedians.

他们有一些很棒的喜剧演员。

They also have some crazy serial killer stories up there, I discovered.

我发现他们还有一些疯狂的连环杀手故事。

Really?

真的吗？

Yeah.

是的。

I mean, this idea that Canada is just all like, nicer America,

我的意思是，加拿大就像更好的美国一样，

Oh, that's not--

哦，那不是——

Nice Americans is not true.

善良的美国人不是真的。

No, no.

不，不。

They're wonderful Canadians.

他们是很棒的加拿大人。

Yeah.

是的。

But they're not all nice.

但他们并不都是好人。

No. For sure, they're not all nice.

不，当然，他们并不都是好人。

No, there's some real fucking pricks up there.

不，那里确实有一些该死的混蛋。

TOM SEGURA: Yeah, I've met a few.

汤姆·塞古拉：是的，我见过一些。

But there's also amazing-- I mean, obviously you think of Norm MacDonald and Mike Myers, Ian Bagg, all these-- there's really, really funny Canadian comics.

但也有令人惊奇的——我的意思是，显然你会想到诺姆·麦克唐纳和迈克·迈尔斯，伊恩·巴格，所有这些——有非常非常有趣的加拿大漫画。

But I remember that there was-- not too long ago, I'm sure we could find it.

但我记得不久前有过，我确信我们能找到它。

There's a Canadian comic that-- he went after some woman in the crowd, shut her down.

有一个加拿大喜剧——他追赶人群中的某个女人，让她闭嘴。

Said something offensive, whatever.

说了些冒犯的话，无所谓。

And he got arrested and yeah.

他被捕了，是的。

Arrested.

被捕。

Yeah, yeah.

是啊是啊。

Arrested and had to pay substantial fines.

被捕并须缴纳巨额罚款。

There's like Lenny Bruce days.

就像莱尼·布鲁斯的日子一样。

Yeah, it was really crazy.

是的，这真的很疯狂。

I don't mean like 25 years ago.

我的意思不是像25年前那样。

I mean like sometime in the last five years.

我的意思是像过去五年的某个时候。

Wow.

哇。

Yeah.

是的。

So I know they're rules on-- so that's the first thing that I think of when you say that, I also just don't feel like-- when people talk about cancel culture with comedians or Elon's stupid fucking make comedy legal again, goofy shit that he said.

所以我知道它们是规则——所以当你这么说时，我首先想到的是，我也只是不喜欢——当人们谈论与喜剧演员的取消文化或埃隆愚蠢的他妈的让喜剧再次合法化时，他说的愚蠢的狗屎。

It's like, what are you talking about?

就像，你在说什么？

But that's also because, thanks in large part to Rogan, but to others as well.

但这也是因为，这在很大程度上要归功于罗根，但也归功于其他人。

Most comedians seem to control the venues in which they release their information-- podcasts.

大多数喜剧演员似乎控制着他们发布信息的场所——播客。

Yeah.

是的。

I guess you could be thrown out of a club and not be able to present your material there,

我猜你可能会被赶出俱乐部并且无法在那里展示你的材料，

Sure.

当然。

--but there's probably another one that you could open up.

——但你可能还可以打开另一个。

And that's happened too.

这也发生了。

Yeah.

是的。

But podcasts people will now release their own specials, where it's pay-to-view.

但播客现在会发布自己的特价节目，并且是付费观看的。

There's Netflix.

有Netflix。

There are a bunch of different venues where it doesn't seem like comedy is as centralized anymore, controlled by the major media houses.

有很多不同的场所，喜剧似乎不再那么集中，由主要媒体公司控制。

That is true.

确实如此。

It's in complete control of the comedians themselves.

它完全由喜剧演员自己控制。

You can put up clips of you doing stand up, you can make skits, you can do short films, you can do whatever, and you can release it, and find an audience like they say.

你可以放出你单口相声的片段，你可以制作短剧，你可以拍短片，你可以做任何事情，你可以发布它，并像他们所说的那样找到观众。

Have an audience come to you.

让观众来找你。

But I just don't buy this whole thing that you can't joke about that.

但我只是不相信你不能拿这件事开玩笑。

You can joke about whatever you want, man.

你可以随心所欲地开玩笑，伙计。

But not at work.

但不在工作中。

I mean, if someone makes a joke or repeats a joke.

我的意思是，如果有人开玩笑或重复一个笑话。

Oh, well yeah.

哦，是的。

Let's say an academic setting, for instance,

比如说学术环境，

Well, no.

嗯，不。

Or the office place.

或者办公地点。

No, your guys--

不，你们这些人——

I mean,

我的意思是，

--world is the worst when it comes to that.

——就这一点而言，世界是最糟糕的。

The academic world is--

学术界是——

Actually it's interesting, in the last five to eight years, the academic world has actually-- around this topic has become safer because the rules are very clear.

事实上，有趣的是，在过去的五到八年里，学术界实际上围绕这个话题变得更加安全，因为规则非常明确。

They're what I call thick black lines.

它们就是我所说的粗黑线。

It's when things are murky that people got themselves in trouble.

当事情变得模糊时，人们就会陷入困境。

Sure.

当然。

Right.

正确的。

So if you look 10 years back, it was really complicated.

所以如果你回顾 10 年前，你会发现当时的情况非常复杂。

Now everyone kind of--

现在每个人都有点——

Get's--

得到的——

--knows what the standard is.

——知道标准是什么。

Yeah.

是的。

Might be uncomfortable for some, not for others.

对于某些人来说可能会感到不舒服，但对其他人来说则不然。

But they know what the standard is.

但他们知道标准是什么。

It's very easy to adhere to a standard if you know where the fences are.

如果您知道围栏在哪里，就很容易遵守标准。

Sure.

当然。

Where it seems to be still murky is in the workplace.

似乎仍然模糊的地方是在工作场所。

Like in the boardroom, you'll hear about tech companies or in finance or at startups.

就像在董事会一样，您会听到有关科技公司、金融公司或初创公司的信息。

Because startups, when they're small typically don't have an HR department.

因为初创公司规模较小时通常没有人力资源部门。

Yeah.

是的。

The HR department is the standards that you create around the office, which could be a garage.

人力资源部门是你在办公室（可能是车库）周围创建的标准。

So that's typically when-- when things aren't well defined is when there are problems.

因此，通常当事情没有明确定义时就会出现问题。

So yes, it's rigid in certain areas like academia, law offices, et cetera.

所以，是的，它在学术界、律师事务所等某些领域是僵化的。

But everyone knows what the rules are.

但每个人都知道规则是什么。

Yeah.

是的。

I'm not saying it's good or bad, I'm just saying--

我并不是说这是好是坏，我只是说——

You know what they are.

你知道它们是什么。

But I feel like we're talking about in comedy as a profession.

但我觉得我们正在谈论喜剧作为一种职业。

You can joke about whatever you want, dude, but you can't dictate is how people will react to it.

你可以随心所欲地开玩笑，伙计，但你不能决定人们对此有何反应。

And if you're trying to say-- because some comedians do this, where they go, this was the joke.

如果你想说——因为有些喜剧演员这样做，无论他们走到哪里，这就是一个笑话。

And what I'm mad about and what I'm going to be vocal about and complain about is that not everybody liked it.

我生气的是，我要大声疾呼和抱怨的是，并不是每个人都喜欢它。

You're like, yeah, that's not-- I mean, that's essentially what they're doing.

你会说，是的，那不是——我的意思是，这本质上就是他们正在做的事情。

Right.

正确的。

They throw a tantrum over the fact that some people are upset at the joke.

由于有些人对这个笑话感到不安，他们大发脾气。

You're like, yeah, that's how it goes.

你会说，是的，事情就是这样。

Like either it goes really well or it doesn't.

就像要么进展顺利，要么进展不顺利。

And you can't go, oh, see, I can't joke about stuff because look how they reacted.

你不能走，哦，看，我不能开玩笑，因为看看他们的反应。

You're like, that's how this works.

你会想，这就是它的工作原理。

Right.

正确的。

Yeah, you have to be a professional.

是的，你必须是专业人士。

And part of being a professional is how it lands is as important as--

成为一名专业人士的一部分在于如何落地，这一点同样重要——

You just have no say in that.

你对此没有发言权。

I'm always fascinated by comics who will smirk or laugh a little bit at their own joke.

我总是对那些会因自己的笑话而傻笑或大笑的漫画家着迷。

And assuming that certain jokes and bits work exceptionally well and you carry them forward from trying it out to Netflix specials or big venues, huge venues.

假设某些笑话和片段效果非常好，并且您将它们从尝试带到Netflix特别节目或大型场所，巨大的场所。

No, those are great questions.

不，这些都是很好的问题。

Yeah, I feel like if I'm smirking or laughing at a joke of mine, it's probably organic.

是的，我觉得如果我因为自己的笑话而傻笑或大笑，那可能是自然的。

I don't try to manufacture one.

我不会尝试制造一个。

You still want to enjoy the process of performing it.

你还是想享受表演的过程。

And when you lose that enjoyment of performing it, I do think the audience knows on an unspoken level there's something about it that doesn't come across the same way.

当你失去表演的乐趣时，我确实认为观众会在不言而喻的层面上知道其中有些东西不会以同样的方式出现。

Yeah, Slow exit.

是的，缓慢退出。

It's a slow exit.

这是一个缓慢的退出。

And what happens is you drop it.

发生的事情就是你放弃它。

And the great thing about dropping it, is your brain goes, hey, you have room for something now.

放弃它的好处是，你的大脑会说，嘿，你现在有空间做某事了。

And that room for something also prompts your brain to start thinking of new things.

容纳某些东西的空间也会促使你的大脑开始思考新事物。

That's how you come up with new material.

这就是你想出新材料的方式。

is that you-- But you have to--

是你——但你必须——

MMMBop.

MMMBop。

It's exactly--

正是——

Only a fraction of the audience will know what I'm talking-- there was a song that was the song for a summer.

只有一小部分观众会知道我在说什么——有一首歌是适合夏天的歌。

You can replace MMMBop with any-- the song for a summer way back when.

您可以将 MMMBop 替换为任何一首夏日时光的歌曲。

Yeah, it's a summer hit.

是的，这是夏季热门。

It was everywhere.

它无处不在。

And then the band just disappears, because the one hit wonder.

然后乐队就消失了，因为这个乐队引起了轰动。

Yeah.

是的。

Because you'll see the very best comics will do this.

因为你会看到最好的漫画会做到这一点。

And it's something you have to wrap your head around.

这是你必须全神贯注的事情。

But then once you do this long enough, you go, oh shit.

但一旦你这样做足够长的时间，你就会走，哦，该死。

The most elite comics are completely willing to bomb at these workout shows.

最精英的漫画家完全愿意在这些健身节目中大肆轰炸。

Not at their hour huge show.

不是在他们的大型演出中。

But at workout shows, super elite comics will go up there and be like, I'm just going to do-- because they know that you have to be willing to eat shit to come up with something really good.

但在健身节目中，超级精英漫画家会站在那里说，我只是要做——因为他们知道你必须愿意吃屎才能想出一些真正好的东西。

So beautiful.

如此美丽。

Yeah.

是的。

When Josh Waitzkin was on this podcast, and he also did a conversation with Rogan, which is different, and if somebody's interested in this stuff, they should check out both because they're complementary conversations.

当乔什·维茨金 (Josh Waitzkin) 参加这个播客时，他还与罗根进行了一次对话，这是不同的，如果有人对这些东西感兴趣，他们应该检查两者，因为它们是互补的对话。

But Josh, who was this child prodigy chess champion and then went on to do a bunch of other things at an extremely high level, he talks about the need and his lack of fear, which is very admirable, for cutting ties with your previous self.

但是乔什，这位国际象棋神童冠军，然后继续以极高的水平做了很多其他事情，他谈到了与以前的自己断绝关系的必要性和他的无所畏惧，这是非常令人钦佩的。

Yeah.

是的。

Or musician had a platinum album, or this was a particularly successful podcast run.

或者音乐家有一张白金专辑，或者这是一个特别成功的播客节目。

And just cut ties with it and be willing to just go completely now and future.

并与其断绝关系，并愿意彻底摆脱现在和未来。

You mentioned Rick.

你提到了瑞克。

One of the things that I've benefited so much from being friends with Rick, in addition to the fact that I just adore the guy, is that he has so many stories about things from the past, if you ask him.

与里克成为朋友让我受益匪浅的一件事是，除了我很喜欢他之外，如果你问他的话，他还有很多关于过去的故事。

But he never brings that stuff up.

但他从来不提这些事。

He'll indulge if you say, oh, tell me a story about Joe Strummer or something.

如果你说，哦，给我讲一个关于乔·斯特鲁默的故事什么的，他会很乐意的。

He'll tell me.

他会告诉我的。

Yeah.

是的。

But he really lives now and forward.

但他确实活在当下，并且活在未来。

Yeah.

是的。

And I think it's Waitzkin that says you don't want to be on the train of life.

我认为维茨金说你不想登上人生的列车。

You want to be at the strap to the front end, experiencing space and time as it's unfolding, which is a very philosophical way to put this.

你想要处于前端的带子上，体验它展开时的空间和时间，这是一种非常哲学的表达方式。

But that challenge of cutting ties with your previous self to continue to evolve your craft is so hard, but it's exactly what you're describing.

但是，切断与以前的自我的联系以继续发展你的手艺的挑战是如此困难，但这正是你所描述的。

I mean, I had this rule early on that I think I was just lucky that I told myself this.

我的意思是，我很早就有这条规则，我认为我很幸运我告诉自己这一点。

Which is that I recorded an album, I think, in 2010.

我想是我在 2010 年录制的一张专辑。

And you want to get a special and a deal.

而且您想要获得特别优惠。

But I didn't have one, so I recorded an album.

但我没有，所以我录制了一张专辑。

And I put out the album.

我推出了专辑。

And at that time, people are buying these comedy albums.

那时，人们正在购买这些喜剧专辑。

And you're starting to stream stuff, and also physical copies are still a thing, because this is 2010.

你开始流媒体播放内容，而且实体副本仍然很流行，因为现在是 2010 年了。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

I think this pertains to so many-- basically all creative forms.

我认为这适用于很多——基本上所有的创造性形式。

100%.

100%。

Whoa, it's the pop.

哇，这是流行音乐。

However, I've also seen you do bits and other people do bits where you're headed down a trail.

然而，我也看到过你和其他人在你走上一条小路时所做的事情。

And I'm thinking, oh no, he's not going there, is he?

我在想，哦不，他不会去那里，是吗？

And you go there, and that's hysterical also.

你去了那里，那也是歇斯底里的。

Yeah.

是的。

So is there a name for this, or how does it work?

那么它有一个名字吗？或者它是如何工作的？

No, I think-- I mean, you're right.

不，我想——我的意思是，你是对的。

So the most basic necessity for, I think, comedy at a very baseline level to explain it or define it, is the element of surprise.

因此，我认为，喜剧在最基本的水平上解释或定义它的最基本必要性是惊喜元素。

Because with that thing, if you go, I know where this is going, you're not going to react the same way.

因为有了那个东西，如果你去了，我知道事情会发生什么，你不会有同样的反应。

If it gets you, it's, oh my god.

如果它吸引了你，那就是，天哪。

Lock him up.

把他锁起来。

Yeah, but in this context.

是的，但是在这种情况下。

So both things satisfy something, I think, in the humor realm.

所以我认为这两件事都满足了幽默领域的某些需求。

Right, the element of surprise will always be something, like the unexpected.

是的，惊喜总是有的，比如出乎意料的事情。

But there's also this condition I think we live with where we go, we all think this but we can't say it.

但还有一个条件，我认为我们生活在我们所去的地方，我们都这么想，但我们不能说出来。

And that that's a very satisfying thing when somebody says it.

当有人这么说时，这是一件非常令人满意的事情。

Well, I had the great benefit of getting a sneak peek at Bad Thoughts.

嗯，我有一个很大的好处就是可以先睹为快，看看《坏想法》。

Oh, yeah, thanks.

哦，是的，谢谢。

And it's amazing.

这太棒了。

People should definitely check it out.

人们绝对应该检查一下。

And I don't want to give anything away, but the second one in the sequence that I watched, I thought, there's no way he's doing this.

我不想泄露任何东西，但我看的第二个序列中，我想，他不可能这样做。

And it just kept coming at me.

它一直向我袭来。

I was like, there's no way.

我当时想，没有办法。

Went to sleep last night.

昨晚就去睡觉了。

And this doesn't happen to me in a long time-- I woke up laughing.

这种事已经很久没有发生在我身上了——我笑着醒来。

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

Which is a wonderful experience.

这是一次美妙的经历。

Yeah, it is.

是的，确实如此。

There are only a few states of mind and body that you wake up in and you're like, well, that was amazing.

当你醒来时，只有几种身心状态，你会觉得，嗯，这太棒了。

Yeah.

是的。

And I woke up laughing.

我笑着醒来。

So it's seeded into my unconscious.

所以它已经在我的潜意识里种下了种子。

So now I'm worried I'm going to say some of the things that you said.

所以现在我担心我会说你说过的一些话。

I hope you do.

我希望你能做到。

But one thing that occurred to me in watching Bad Thoughts is that you're not just a phenomenal comedian, but you're also a really good actor.

但在观看《坏想法》时，我想到的一件事是，你不仅是一位出色的喜剧演员，而且还是一位非常出色的演员。

Oh, thank you.

哦，谢谢。

And a number of comedians seem able to act.

许多喜剧演员似乎都能表演。

Which is surprising to me for reasons that don't make any sense to me.

这让我感到惊讶，原因对我来说没有任何意义。

But no.

但没有。

If you look at-- athletes often are terrible actors.

如果你观察一下——运动员往往都是糟糕的演员。

I mean, some of the best acting that athletes have done is when they're playing a buffoon.

我的意思是，运动员的一些最好的表演就是在扮演小丑时。

Or they're supposed to not be able to act well.

或者他们应该无法表现得很好。

I think of someone like the Naked Gun movies.

我想到了像《裸枪》电影这样的人。

Shout out to OJ, right?

向 OJ 大声喊叫，对吧？

To OJ, right?

给OJ，对吗？

I mean, he's not a good actor.

我的意思是，他不是一个好演员。

Yeah.

是的。

And it worked because he wasn't a good actor.

这之所以有效，是因为他不是一个好演员。

Yeah.

是的。

But you're a very good actor.

但你是一个非常好的演员。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Did you train for it?

你为此训练了吗？

I loved making people laugh.

我喜欢让人们发笑。

And the first thing I did like in performing was I did a play as a kid.

我在表演中喜欢的第一件事就是小时候演了一部戏剧。

I did an improv troupe at 14, which is pretty young to be in an improv troupe.

我14岁时参加了一个即兴剧团，对于一个即兴剧团来说，这还算年轻。

I did that for a summer.

我这样做了一个夏天。

And my whole thing was I wanted to make movies.

我的全部想法就是我想拍电影。

I had a plan when I was in college.

我在大学的时候就有一个计划。

I had the communications track, so we would do TV radio production.

我有通讯轨道，所以我们会做电视广播制作。

Well, you're a very fine actor.

嗯，你是一个非常优秀的演员。

Thank you.

谢谢。

As they say.

正如他们所说。

I was like, oh, he's acting.

我当时想，哦，他在演戏。

This isn't just standup.

这不仅仅是站立。

Yeah.

是的。

Standup is its own thing.

站立是它自己的事情。

In previous Netflix specials-- but I've also seen you do in these bits in smaller clubs, like at The Belly up in Aspen.

在之前的 Netflix 特辑中，我也见过你在较小的俱乐部里表演这些片段，比如阿斯彭的 The Belly up。

That's right.

这是正确的。

Smaller places.

较小的地方。

That's right.

这是正确的。

Where we just coincidentally wore the exact--

我们只是巧合地穿着一模一样的——

The exact same thing.

完全一样的事情。

So same flannel, same jeans, same Adidas.

同样的法兰绒，同样的牛仔裤，同样的阿迪达斯。

So it was really weird.

所以这真的很奇怪。

Did not coordinate.

没有协调好。

That's DNA.

那是DNA。

That's DNA.

那是DNA。

And the cosmic correspondence of the butterfly effect.

以及蝴蝶效应的宇宙对应。

That's-- yes.

那是——是的。

That's what my dad was trying to explain to me at one point.

这就是我父亲曾经试图向我解释的。

You do voices very well.

你的声音做得很好。

In particular, the voices of your kids.

特别是孩子们的声音。

I always think that when somebody impersonates somebody else, it's about grabbing the key elements, not the whole piece.

我一直认为，当有人模仿别人时，是为了抓住关键要素，而不是整个部分。

They don't turn around and come back and say--

他们不会转身回来说——

Right.

对。

Some people can just grab a few key elements of somebody.

有些人只能抓住某人的一些关键要素。

In this case, someone we've never met.

在这种情况下，我们从未见过一个人。

It was your sons.

是你的儿子们。

And we feel like we know them and we're getting what clearly are key features of their personality coming through.

我们感觉我们了解他们，并且我们清楚地了解了他们性格的关键特征。

Do you practice those, or do you just observe and it just is embedded in you?

你会练习这些，还是只是观察，然后它就融入你的内心？

I think it's observed and embedded.

我认为它是被观察和嵌入的。

And I think in that case in particular, because with your kids, there's this thing that happens where you talk about your kids a lot not on stage.

我认为特别是在这种情况下，因为对于你的孩子来说，当你不在舞台上谈论你的孩子时，就会发生这种情况。

In other words, I'm talking to my sisters or I'm talking to a friend about the kids.

换句话说，我正在和我的姐妹们或者我正在和朋友谈论孩子们的事情。

So you get this extra practice about them, because they are so much something that-- people always are like, how are your kids, right?

所以你对他们进行了额外的练习，因为他们是如此——人们总是会问，你的孩子怎么样，对吧？

And so you're just like, oh, I got home.

所以你就像，哦，我到家了。

This little shit came in.

这个小东西进来了。

He was like, hey, fucking pick me up.

他就像，嘿，他妈的来接我。

What impression is that?

那是什么印象？

That's the little guy.

就是那个小家伙。

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

He sounds like a piece of work, man.

他听起来就像一件作品，伙计。

He is a piece of work, dude.

他是一件作品，伙计。

He is something else.

他是另外一种东西。

It's so funny.

太搞笑了。

Sometimes, we call him Little Joe Pesci.

有时，我们叫他小乔·佩西。

Because he's just like, what the fuck?

因为他只是想，他妈的怎么了？

And we're like, yo, man.

我们就像，哟，伙计。

I don't say that.

我不这么说。

How old is he?

他几岁了？

He's six.

他六岁了。

Oh my goodness.

哦，我的天啊。

He's six.

他六岁了。

And he's like, he's fucking fucking with me all day, Dad.

他就像是，他他妈的整天跟我在一起，爸爸。

And I'm like--

我就像——

He get that from you or from your wife?

他是从你那里还是从你妻子那里得到的？

I feel like it's more her.

我感觉更像是她

I feel like she's got those--

我觉得她有那些——

I'll have to ask her.

我得问问她。

She's got those Hungarian roots where they-- like when I was a kid, in our house, there was not a lot of cursing, dude.

她有匈牙利血统，就像我小时候一样，在我们家里，没有太多咒骂，伙计。

Oh, no. I'd get whacked if I--

哦，不。如果我——

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

No, not hit.

不，没有击中。

I think if I talk back.

我想如果我回嘴的话。

It only happened twice in my life.

这种事在我一生中只发生过两次。

Yeah.

是的。

I spoke back.

我回嘴了。

I won't say to which parent.

我不会告诉哪位家长。

And I got hit.

我被击中了。

OK.

好的。

Nowadays people are like, oh, he was beaten up.

现在人们就像，哦，他被殴打了。

I'm fine.

我很好。

OK?

好的？

I don't swear at people.

我不向人发誓。

Yeah.

是的。

Very often.

经常。

It's an extreme circumstance.

这是一个极端的情况。

Yeah, so, OK, so but he swears all the time, apparently.

是的，所以，好吧，但是他显然一直在说脏话。

Dude, I mean, to the point where we're-- I mean, I know people, whenever you talk about this, people are like, you're a bad dad.

伙计，我的意思是，到了我们——我的意思是，我认识的人，每当你谈论这件事时，人们都会说，你是一个坏爸爸。

I'm like, shut the fuck up.

我想，他妈的闭嘴。

You've never been around-- these boys are-- I have two little wild dudes.

你从来没有来过——这些男孩——我有两个狂野的小家伙。

By the way, I always share stories of extremes.

顺便说一句，我总是分享极端的故事。

They're sweet, adorable, loving, wonderful kids, right.

他们是可爱、可爱、有爱心、很棒的孩子，对吧。

But they're just two little dudes who, I come home, and they're like, it's torture time.

但他们只是两个小家伙，我回到家，他们就像，这是折磨的时间。

They call it torture time, where I lay down and then they just get to fuck me up.

他们称之为折磨时间，我躺在那里，然后他们就开始操我。

How old's the older one?

老的几岁了？

He's nine.

他九岁了。

He's nine.

他九岁了。

Dude, I get home every day.

兄弟，我每天都回家。

He's like, check this out.

他就像，看看这个。

He takes off his shirt, and he's like-- he flexes.

他脱掉衬衫，然后他就像——他弯曲了。

Oh yeah.

哦，是的。

He's like, I'm going to be so jacked by high school.

他说，我会被高中压垮的。

I'm like, yes.

我想，是的。

Probably.

大概。

And he's lean.

而且他很瘦。

He's got the body for it.

他有这个身体。

We go to the park, and he's just sitting there doing pullups and he'll bring weights.

我们去公园，他只是坐在那里做引体向上，他会带上重物。

He'll bring weights to the park.

他会把举重带到公园。

And you see other kids.

你还看到其他孩子。

That's the age to start.

这就是开始的年龄。

Yeah.

是的。

There's an Instagram account of this guy.

这个人有一个 Instagram 帐户。

I'll dig it up for the captions.

我会把它挖出来作为字幕。

His daughter is probably 11.

他的女儿大概11岁。

And she's doing pullups with a 45-pound plate and ankle weights strapped to her waist.

她正在用 45 磅重的杠铃做引体向上，腰部绑着脚踝重物。

Really?

真的吗？

And she's doing pullups through the chest.

她正在做胸部引体向上。

And she's not built yet.

而且她还没有建成。

She's clearly before puberty.

她显然还没有到青春期。

And she's just--

而她只是——

Going to be--

将会是——

Yeah, little gymnast, perhaps.

是的，也许是个小体操运动员。

Keith, he's so into it, talking about six packs.

基思，他非常热衷于谈论六块腹肌。

You think I could have a six pack soon?

你认为我很快就能拥有六块腹肌吗？

I'm like, yeah, sure.

我想，是的，当然。

Keep going, man.

继续前进，伙计。

He goes, why don't you have one?

他走了，你为什么没有一个？

I'm like, just fucking--

我就像，只是他妈的——

He's already busting your balls.

他已经把你的蛋蛋搞坏了。

Yeah.

是的。

You told me a story once over dinner about your son learning piano.

有一次晚餐时你给我讲了一个关于你儿子学习钢琴的故事。

I don't know if you remember that.

我不知道你还记不记得。

I think it was the younger one.

我认为那是年轻的那一位。

And it was something like, how's piano going?

就像这样，钢琴怎么样？

And your son, he goes, it fucking sucks.

而你的儿子，他说，这太糟糕了。

It sounds like that's his response.

听起来这就是他的回应。

He's ready to pop back all the time.

他时刻准备着回归。

Always.

总是。

No, he's completely ready.

不，他已经完全准备好了。

The funniest thing that he did recently was-- they both go to jiu-jitsu.

他最近做的最有趣的事情是——他们都去练柔术。

OK.

好的。

And the older one's really thriving.

而且老的确实很发达。

He has a skill for it.

他有这方面的技能。

And he's doing it well, moving up.

他做得很好，正在进步。

And the younger guy, I mean, he's like a puppy.

我的意思是，那个年轻的家伙就像一只小狗。

Well, he started when he was five.

嗯，他五岁的时候就开始了。

It's just different, right.

只是不同而已，对吧。

You're pretty young.

你还很年轻。

And so we're at class and he goes, I'm not doing this anymore.

当我们上课时，他说，我不再这样做了。

I'm like, what do you mean?

我想，你什么意思？

He goes, I'm too busy, man.

他走了，我太忙了，伙计。

And I go, what?

我走了，什么？

He's done?

他完了吗？

He's done.

他完成了。

I mean, also, he can really advocate for himself.

我的意思是，他也确实可以为自己辩护。

He definitely advocates for himself.

他绝对是为自己辩护。

I've never been the type where, you have to do these.

我从来不是那种你必须做这些的人。

I feel like the fun thing about a kid, boy or girl with sports, is expose them to a lot of sports.

我觉得对于一个孩子来说，无论男孩还是女孩，运动的乐趣在于让他们接触很多运动。

And I don't want to go, you have to do these.

我不想去，这些你必须做。

Whatever sport you like, you can do that one.

无论你喜欢什么运动，你都可以做那一项。

Meanwhile, they're becoming comics in their mind.

与此同时，他们在他们的脑海中变成了漫画。

Oh, they're-- yeah.

哦，他们是——是的。

Both parents are comics.

父母都是漫画家。

They're funny dudes.

他们是有趣的家伙。

They are very funny.

他们很有趣。

Yeah.

是的。

They love to laugh.

他们喜欢笑。

And it's fun, because you see kids.

这很有趣，因为你看到孩子们。

When a kid says something that's genuinely funny and you start laughing, you see that look in their eye.

当一个孩子说了一些真正有趣的话并且你开始大笑时，你会看到他们眼中的表情。

They're like, oh, that's cool.

他们就像，哦，那太酷了。

They just try to do it again.

他们只是尝试再做一次。

And if they do it too much, you're like, yeah, it's not funny anymore.

如果他们做得太多，你就会觉得，是的，这不再有趣了。

You can't do it that much.

你不能做那么多。

Yeah, that is a perfect cue for me to ask what I was going to ask earlier when we were talking about when you are amused by something, you really delight in telling this bit.

是的，这是一个完美的提示，让我问之前当我们谈论当你对某件事感到好笑时我要问什么，你真的很高兴讲述这一点。

Yeah.

是的。

It impacts the audience and how it lands.

它影响着观众以及它的落地方式。

There's a very famous patient in neuroscience.

在神经科学领域有一位非常著名的病人。

Probably the most famous patient.

可能是最著名的病人。

His name is HM.

他的名字是HM。

So we don't know his real name.

所以我们不知道他的真名。

He's dead now.

他现在死了。

But he had a lesion to his hippocampus, this brain area involved in memory.

但他的海马体（这个与记忆有关的大脑区域）受到了损伤。

And he was studied extensively for decades.

几十年来，人们对他进行了广泛的研究。

And most of what we know about human memory is from this guy.

我们对人类记忆的大部分了解都是来自这个人。

All the other stuff, we know from mouse studies.

所有其他的东西，我们都是从老鼠研究中得知的。

A little bit from monkey studies.

一点来自猴子研究。

Wow.

哇。

So there's a very well-known study where you go in.

因此，有一项非常著名的研究可供您参与。

And he has no retrograde memory.

而且他没有逆行记忆。

He can't remember anything that you told him before.

他不记得你之前告诉过他的任何事情。

But within a matter of seconds, he forgets it completely.

但几秒钟后，他就完全忘记了。

And they've tested this every which way.

他们已经从各个方面对此进行了测试。

OK.

好的。

Holy shit.

天哪。

His brain is now in a jar.

他的大脑现在在一个罐子里。

It's been scanned, et cetera.

它已被扫描，等等。

But so the study goes something like this.

但研究是这样的。

You go in and you tell HM a joke.

你进去给HM讲个笑话。

And he laughs.

他笑了。

And he thinks it's very funny.

他认为这很有趣。

Then you leave and you come back.

然后你离开然后再回来。

And he doesn't remember who you are.

而且他不记得你是谁了。

This has been tested again and again.

这一点已经被反复测试过。

He's not fibbing, OK.

他没有撒谎，好吧。

And there are number of ways that you can measure this, especially if you make it, sadly, some survival based things.

有很多方法可以衡量这一点，特别是如果你不幸地做出了一些基于生存的事情。

Yeah.

是的。

You tell him the joke again.

你再给他讲个笑话。

And he laughs again, but a little less.

他又笑了，但笑得少了一些。

And the next time a little less and a little less.

而且下次要少一点，少一点。

And eventually he's like, yeah, that was not really funny.

最后他说，是的，这并不好笑。

Yeah.

是的。

Same joke-- he does not remember the joke.

同样的笑话——他不记得这个笑话了。

But there seems to be some unconscious memory of the joke, which I always found fascinating.

但似乎对这个笑话有一些无意识的记忆，我总是觉得很有趣。

So it's almost like the narrative around something, we get saturated to it.

所以这几乎就像围绕某件事的叙述一样，我们对它感到饱和。

We're all familiar with the friend at a dinner party that tells a joke and everybody laughs.

我们都熟悉一位朋友在晚宴上讲了一个笑话，大家都笑了。

And then they make the cardinal mistake, which is to tell the joke again at the same dinner.

然后他们犯了一个严重的错误，那就是在同一次晚餐上再次讲这个笑话。

And it just burns it.

它只会烧掉它。

It burns it there, and it burns it the previous time.

那里烧了，上次也烧了。

No, no.

不，不。

But what do you think is going on here?

但你认为这是怎么回事？

Not necessarily in HM, the patient.

不一定是病人HM。

But there's something about telling that funny punchline twice that you just-- I feel like men, guys seem to do this more.

但是，把那个有趣的笑点讲两遍，我觉得男人们似乎更喜欢这样做。

It's like, you got it.

就像，你明白了。

You nailed it.

你成功了。

Yes.

是的。

Do not tell the joke again.

别再讲笑话了。

Well, every guy thinks he can fight, fuck, is funny, and can drive.

好吧，每个人都认为自己可以打架、做爱、有趣并且可以开车。

Those are the four things that every guy thinks he's awesome at.

这是每个人都认为自己很擅长的四件事。

And you're lucky if you're marginal at one.

如果你在某一方面处于边缘地位，那你就很幸运了。

You know what I mean?

你知道我的意思？

Every dude is like, I can drive.

每个人都说，我会开车。

I'm hilarious.

我很搞笑。

I can fight, chicks.

我可以战斗，小鸡们。

Every guy has this thing.

每个男人都有这个东西。

So I'll train.

那我就训练一下吧。

You know what I I mean?

你知道我的意思吗？

That's--

那是——

Cross-train.

交叉列车。

Cross-train, man.

交叉火车，伙计。

You gotta do them all.

你必须把它们全部做完。

But the funny thing is, when you were talking about HM, what I thought you were going to-- the point you were making is that you go back in and it's not HM that is not laughing anymore at the funny thing.

但有趣的是，当你谈论 HM 时，我以为你会——你要表达的观点是，当你回去时，并不是 HM 不再嘲笑这件有趣的事情。

It's that the person telling is that you lose something.

就是那个人告诉你你失去了一些东西。

Because there is this thing in stand that is like a phenomenon.

因为有这样一个东西存在，它就像一种现象。

I don't have the answer to.

我没有答案。

That's so interesting.

那太有趣了。

I'm obsessed with mainly two things-- time perception and state changes in the human brain.

我主要着迷于两件事——时间感知和人脑的状态变化。

We know so much about REM sleep and slow wave sleep.

我们对快速眼动睡眠和慢波睡眠了解很多。

We know very little about waking states.

我们对清醒状态知之甚少。

Like alert and focused.

喜欢警觉和专注。

Or we have these terms, but there's so much more going on there.

或者我们有这些条款，但还有更多内容。

And so the question is this.

所以问题是这样的。

We're at a club or a stadium, and you're going to go on but I go on first, which means my bit sucks.

我们在俱乐部或体育场，你要继续，但我先继续，这意味着我的表现很糟糕。

It just sucks, because I'm not a comedian.

这很糟糕，因为我不是喜剧演员。

Yeah, yeah.

是啊是啊。

He's good, right?

他很好，对吧？

I mean when he's on, he's really on.

我的意思是，当他上场时，他真的很上场。

He's very funny.

他很有趣。

Holtzman goes on and does really well.

霍尔茨曼继续坚持，而且做得非常好。

Yeah.

是的。

Who do you want to follow?

你想跟随谁？

Holtzman.

霍尔兹曼。

Because the crowd is in a state of being ready to receive the jokes.

因为人群正处于准备接受笑话的状态。

Exactly.

确切地。

Yeah, yeah.

是啊是啊。

I feel like when you're newer, probably the typical answer for most comedians would be like, I want to follow the guy that didn't do well.

我觉得当你是新人时，大多数喜剧演员的典型答案可能是，我想追随表现不佳的人。

Right, because then I can save the day.

是的，因为这样我就可以拯救世界。

But the longer you do it, you realize that's not actually-- you actually want the guy in front of you to do well, even really well.

但你做的时间越长，你就会意识到这实际上并不是——你实际上希望你面前的人做得很好，甚至非常好。

Because it does generate this thing of, this is what this is.

因为它确实产生了这个东西，这就是这个。

We're at a place of doing this.

我们正处于做这件事的地方。

It's jokes.

这是笑话。

It's fun.

很有趣。

I'm thinking of giving toasts at weddings.

我正在考虑在婚礼上祝酒。

Yeah.

是的。

If somebody gives a really great toast, giving the next toast, you're saying, oh, that's a hard act to follow.

如果有人祝酒非常好，然后再祝酒，你会说，哦，这是一个很难遵循的行为。

No, actually, it's an easy act to follow.

不，实际上，这是一个很容易遵循的行为。

Yeah.

是的。

Because everyone's just basking in whatever just happened.

因为每个人都沉浸在刚刚发生的事情中。

It sounds similar.

听起来很相似。

That's right.

这是正确的。

The state changes.

状态发生变化。

Whether or not we're talking about running or you're talking about cannabis or you're talking about whatever it is, I mean, I find that so much of the creative process or the constructive process, science or comedy or whatever, is about accessing these states.

无论我们是否在谈论跑步，或者你在谈论大麻，或者你在谈论任何它是什么，我的意思是，我发现很多创造性的过程或建设性的过程，科学或喜剧或其他什么，都是关于进入这些状态。

And we learn how to do it through what becomes an unconscious process.

我们通过无意识的过程学习如何做到这一点。

But how to get there.

但如何到达那里。

Yeah.

是的。

Again and again.

一次又一次。

And so much of becoming a professional is about going through the peaks and valleys of bombing and coming back.

成为一名职业球员很大程度上就是要经历轰炸的高峰和低谷，然后再回来。

Totally.

完全。

So I'm curious, before you go out on stage now, given the size of the crowd, is just the memory of what's about to happen sufficient to put you in the state?

所以我很好奇，在你现在上台之前，考虑到人群的规模，仅仅对即将发生的事情的记忆足以让你处于这种状态吗？

So the thing is, the longer you do it and the more shows you do, you've performed in every state.

所以事实是，你做的时间越长，你做的演出越多，你就在每个州表演过。

Sometimes you have to remind-- I like to remind myself that I'm at my funniest.

有时你必须提醒——我喜欢提醒自己，我正处于最有趣的状态。

And I'm the best version of myself on stage when I have a silly mindset going.

当我有一种愚蠢的心态时，我在舞台上就是最好的自己。

Meaning just goofing off.

意思就是只是偷懒而已。

Being a kid, almost.

小时候，差不多吧。

So if I'm backstage and I have you in there and I'm just saying-- I'm poking you.

所以，如果我在后台，而你也在里面，我只是说——我在戳你。

Not roasting you, but being silly, right?

不是骂你，而是装傻吧？

We're related.

我们有关系。

Yeah.

是的。

Just being silly.

只是犯傻而已。

I feel like that mindset is the best version of me to go on stage.

我觉得这种心态是我登上舞台的最佳状态。

And you can forget it by-- I forget it all the time, right.

你可以通过——我总是忘记它，对吧。

Because I've performed tired, upset, sad, anxious.

因为我表现得很累、心烦意乱、悲伤、焦虑。

I've performed in every possible state.

我已经在所有可能的状态下表演过。

But I do like to tell myself, oh yeah, don't forget, get yourself into this silly state.

但我确实想告诉自己，哦，是的，别忘了，让自己陷入这种愚蠢的状态。

Do you watch a lot of comedy?

你看很多喜剧吗？

The greats.

伟人。

Do you--

你有吗——

I don't watch a lot of comedy anymore, I would say.

我想说，我不再看很多喜剧了。

As a kid, I mean, I think the reason you follow this path is because you're just such a huge fan of it.

我的意思是，作为一个孩子，我认为你走这条路的原因是因为你是它的忠实粉丝。

So growing up, I watched a lot of the Evening at the Improv, Def Jam specials.

在成长过程中，我看了很多即兴表演之夜、Def Jam 的特别节目。

It was also specials were truly special, right.

这也是特别的，真的很特别，对吧。

Because there was six specials maybe a year.

因为一年可能有六次特价。

Eddie Murphy.

艾迪·墨菲。

Yeah.

是的。

Eddie and Chris Rock and Carlin.

埃迪、克里斯·洛克和卡林。

And all those guys would put out a special, I mean, once every few years.

我的意思是，所有这些人每隔几年就会推出一次特别节目。

And there was only a few places.

而且只有几个地方。

HBO was just the place.

HBO 正是这个地方。

And then Comedy Central became the other-- HBO was premium.

然后喜剧中心就变成了另一个——HBO 是优质频道。

Real elite.

真正的精英。

Huge, huge talent.

人才济济，才华横溢。

And then Comedy Central was everybody else.

然后喜剧中心就是其他人。

And then now the landscape has changed where we get-- I don't know, man.

现在情况已经发生了变化——我不知道，伙计。

I feel like there's 300 specials a year.

我感觉一年有300个特价。

Right, because you can release them on-- they're on Netflix, they're on Max, they're on Hulu, they're on Amazon, they're on YouTube.

是的，因为你可以在 Netflix、Max、Hulu、Amazon、YouTube 上发布它们。

I mean, so much of what we're talking about today, I just realized, is emotional contagion.

我的意思是，我刚刚意识到，我们今天谈论的很多内容都是情绪传染。

It really introduces this question.

确实引入了这个问题。

This is very reductionist thinking, but how much of the success of a bit or a joke is the emotion that the person telling it is carrying, and how much of it is the actual words and content?

这是一种非常还原论的思维，但是一段话或一个笑话的成功有多少是讲述者所携带的情感，又有多少是实际的言语和内容？

It's probably that, plus the rhythm and the timing.

大概就是这样，再加上节奏和时机。

There's a lot of things.

有很多事情。

It's really a combination of those things.

它确实是这些东西的组合。

Emotional contagion is real.

情绪感染是真实存在的。

You're talking about it as a comedian watching comedy.

你是在以喜剧演员观看喜剧的方式来谈论它。

It permeates you.

它渗透到你身上。

Is that what it's called, emotional contagion?

这就是所谓的情绪感染吗？

Emotional contagion.

情绪传染。

And some people are more emotionally permeable than others.

有些人比其他人更容易受到情感影响。

Yeah.

是的。

We could put this on a spectrum.

我们可以把它放在一个范围内。

We could even put it on the-- so what used to be called the autistic spectrum.

我们甚至可以把它放在过去所谓的自闭症谱系中。

People who really contained in their emotions.

那些真正压抑自己情绪的人。

Things don't get them.

事情不明白他们。

But people at the far end of that spectrum, they have a sensory sensitivity.

但处于这个范围远端的人，他们有感官敏感性。

Autistic kids that are really severely autistic, the amount of noise in a typical room is overwhelming.

自闭症儿童确实患有严重的自闭症，一般房间里的噪音量是巨大的。

It's overwhelming, right.

这是压倒性的，对吧。

They actually have discovered that that's actually outside the brain, that their sensory endings are tuned differently to the world.

他们实际上已经发现，那实际上是在大脑之外，他们的感官结局与世界的调整不同。

They're experiencing the world very, very differently.

他们对世界的体验非常非常不同。

You have these certain people get scared when they watch a movie and they jump when the monster jumps out.

有些人在看电影时会感到害怕，当怪物跳出来时他们会跳起来。

Other people are less of a startled response.

其他人的反应则没有那么惊讶。

I get startled.

我吓了一跳。

I get startled.

我吓了一跳。

Yeah.

是的。

I think that it's natural to get startled.

我认为感到惊讶是很自然的。

I think that some people just have very flat affect, and some people can-- it's like a seesaw.

我认为有些人的情感非常平淡，而有些人则可以——就像跷跷板一样。

And for some people, the hinge is tight.

对于某些人来说，铰链很紧。

That doesn't necessarily mean they're calm.

这并不一定意味着他们很平静。

Some people are just pissed off all the time, and the hinge is tight.

有些人总是生气，铰链很紧。

Some people are happy all the time and the hinge is tight.

有些人总是很快乐，铰链很紧。

Yeah.

是的。

With the fear response.

伴随着恐惧的反应。

You can literally take an animal, scare it, take it out of that tube, put another animal in there, and it will show a fear response based on something molecular in the air.

你可以直接拿一只动物，吓唬它，把它从管子里拿出来，把另一只动物放进去，它就会根据空气中的分子表现出恐惧反应。

Really?

真的吗？

Absolutely.

绝对地。

I mean, their hormones work within us, pheromones between two members of the species.

我的意思是，它们的荷尔蒙在我们体内发挥作用，是物种两个成员之间的信息素。

They're clearly pheromone-like effects.

它们显然是类似信息素的效果。

We haven't identified what those pheromones are.

我们还没有确定这些信息素是什么。

Same thing can happen in crowds.

同样的事情也可能发生在人群中。

You can get a hysteria.

你可能会歇斯底里。

We do feel like the best experience as a comedian performing is where you feel like the audience is one.

我们确实觉得作为一名喜剧演员表演的最佳体验就是让你感觉观众就是其中之一。

They are one.

他们是一体的。

It's not 10,000 separate people.

这不是一万个人。

It's like this is all together.

就好像这一切都在一起了。

When that's going as well as it can go, that is like an incredible rush.

当一切进展顺利时，那就像一种令人难以置信的冲刺。

And the feeling is that they do mold.

感觉是它们确实发霉了。

It's like they started as 10,000 people, and then they just become this one thing.

就好像他们一开始只有一万人，然后他们就变成了这一个人。

And you're rocking this one entity out there together.

你们正在一起摇晃这个实体。

This is why some people, including me, fear going to theater.

这就是为什么包括我在内的一些人害怕去剧院的原因。

My sister loves theater.

我姐姐喜欢戏剧。

We go to New York in the fall for our birthdays.

我们秋天去纽约过生日。

And because she loves theater, we go to theater.

因为她喜欢戏剧，所以我们就去看戏剧。

And if theater is great, it's amazing.

如果戏剧很棒，那就太棒了。

If theater is bad, it leaves me feeling bad for the people.

如果戏剧很糟糕，我就会为人们感到难过。

The tone in the room is like, ooh.

房间里的语气就像是，哦。

It's heavy.

它很重。

Heavy.

重的。

It's not just like, turn off the special.

这不仅仅是关闭特殊功能。

It sucks.

太糟糕了。

It takes you to a lower place.

它会带你到一个更低的地方。

Well, live is always-- it's just such a different experience.

嗯，生活总是——这只是一种不同的体验。

You know what I think about?

你知道我在想什么吗？

I don't know if there's any science to this.

不知道这有没有科学依据。

But I always sometimes think about the fact that I feel like comedy specifically as an art form might be the most involuntarily subjective.

但有时我总是会想到这样一个事实：我觉得喜剧特别是一种艺术形式可能是最不由自主地主观的。

Meaning that if you look at a photo or a piece of art, you might go, I don't like that.

这意味着如果你看一张照片或一件艺术品，你可能会离开，我不喜欢这样。

And then I might educate you in some way about it.

然后我可能会以某种方式教育你。

And you look at it differently.

而你却以不同的方式看待它。

A very important point that never occurred to me.

我从未想到过的非常重要的一点。

I love art history.

我喜欢艺术史。

In part because I like art.

部分原因是我喜欢艺术。

I've always liked art.

我一直很喜欢艺术。

Yeah.

是的。

But by taking an art history class, I've literally fallen in love with certain artists and their paintings.

但通过上艺术史课，我确实爱上了某些艺术家和他们的画作。

And I look at certain paintings completely differently now, as you point out, on the basis of what I know about what the art represents, the history of the artist.

正如你所指出的，根据我对艺术所代表的内容和艺术家的历史的了解，我现在对某些绘画的看法完全不同。

If a joke isn't funny to me or a bit isn't funny, I don't care what the process was--

如果一个笑话对我来说不好笑或者有一点不好笑，我不在乎这个过程是什么——

Right.

对。

--for that bit.

——为了那一点。

I'm like, it's just not funny.

我想，这一点都不好笑。

It's just not.

事实并非如此。

Yeah, it seems like it's one of the purest yum, yuck, or meh kind of things.

是的，这似乎是最纯粹的味道之一，恶心，或者嗯。

Which is another point of neuroscience.

这是神经科学的另一点。

The nervous system has degrees of this, but it basically bins things very quickly into yum, this is awesome, or hilarious, or whatever.

神经系统有这样的程度，但它基本上很快就把东西分类成百胜，这太棒了，或者很搞笑，或者其他什么。

Yuck.

恶心。

Like, no. And kind of meh.

就像，不。有点无聊。

Yeah.

是的。

Within each one of those bins, there's a lot of variation.

在每一个垃圾箱中，都有很多变化。

Yeah.

是的。

Love, love, love, hate, hate, hate.

爱，爱，爱，恨，恨，恨。

But your brain makes a decision really quickly.

但你的大脑很快就会做出决定。

Yum, yuck, or meh?

嗯，恶心，还是嗯？

Right.

正确的。

Right.

正确的。

And especially with different arts.

尤其是不同的艺术。

Right, I mean, literally, you look at the photo and your brain tells you, right.

是的，我的意思是，从字面上看，你看着照片，你的大脑就会告诉你，对吧。

Most of the time, you're not going to go back to that and have a much different response.

大多数时候，你不会再回到那个问题并得到截然不同的反应。

Right, I mean, with comedy, you're not going to have the response.

是的，我的意思是，对于喜剧，你不会有回应。

And if something's not funny, if you tell me, he toiled on this for 40 years, I'd be like, well, then it especially sucks.

如果有什么不好笑的话，如果你告诉我，他为此辛苦了 40 年，我会说，好吧，那就特别糟糕了。

It's really shit.

实在是太狗屎了。

Whereas you show me a sculpture I might not appreciate, and you explain what went into that.

然而你给我看了一个我可能不欣赏的雕塑，然后你解释了其中的原理。

Yeah.

是的。

You can develop at least an appreciation for it.

你至少可以培养对它的欣赏。

You're like, this is interesting.

你说，这很有趣。

Versions of this happen all the time.

这种情况一直在发生。

Especially now, because everything's shareable.

尤其是现在，因为一切都可以共享。

Where your friend goes, check this out.

你的朋友去哪里，看看这个。

And you watch the thing and you're like, OK.

当你看到这个东西时，你会想，好吧。

And they're like, isn't that the funniest thing you've ever seen?

他们说，这不是你见过的最有趣的事情吗？

You're like, no. They're like, you didn't like that?

你就像，不。他们说，你不喜欢那样？

No.

不。

Well, I think this gets back to HM and this idea that there's a subconscious-- just an unaware process that dictates whether or not something's funny or not.

嗯，我认为这又回到了 HM 的观点，即潜意识的存在——只是一个无意识的过程，决定了某件事是否有趣。

Yeah.

是的。

It tickles our brain below the level of precise understanding.

它让我们的大脑在精确理解的水平以下感到痒痒。

And I'm so fascinated by this.

我对此非常着迷。

Because as you point out, there just aren't other things like this.

因为正如您所指出的，没有其他类似的事情。

You could say this about people.

你可以这样说人。

Like, oh, liked this person right away, didn't like them.

就像，哦，立刻喜欢这个人，不喜欢他们。

Yes.

是的。

But in general, the more that we learn about people-- this is why all the efforts to try and erase racism, for instance, the more you learn about a culture, the more you tend to like the people of that culture.

但总的来说，我们对人了解得越多——这就是为什么所有努力消除种族主义的原因，例如，你对一种文化了解得越多，你就越喜欢那种文化的人。

Totally, yeah.

完全是的。

Even if you were archenemies for decades or hundreds of years before, there's just the way the human brain works.

即使你们在几十年或几百年前一直是宿敌，但这就是人类大脑的工作方式。

Then with comedy, it feels like it's like chemistry.

然后是喜剧，感觉就像化学反应。

It does.

确实如此。

And of course, you can say, well, you like or don't like the comic.

当然，你可以说，你喜欢或不喜欢这部漫画。

But I have to imagine that you like it or not probably represent the bad boyfriend or the abusive dad to somebody or the friend that they loved in college.

但我必须想象，你喜欢或不喜欢它可能代表了他们在大学里所爱的某人或朋友的坏男朋友或虐待父亲。

Let's make it positive, too.

让我们也积极地对待它。

Or the guy they like to be around.

或者他们喜欢身边的人。

I mean, you don't know that people's relationship to you.

我的意思是，你不知道人们与你的关系。

You never know.

你永远不知道。

And so the humor may land or not land, depending on all sorts of unconscious stuff going on.

因此，幽默可能会落地，也可能不会落地，这取决于正在发生的各种无意识的事情。

So much.

就这么多。

And you realize, too, that you can have a joke about a teacher.

你也意识到你可以拿老师开玩笑。

You know what I mean?

你知道我的意思？

It's part of your bit.

这是你的一部分。

You're not thinking of that.

你没有想到这一点。

And you saying that has a ripple effect that you don't realize.

你说这会产生你没有意识到的连锁反应。

To different people in the audience for dozens of different reasons.

由于数十种不同的原因，对观众中的不同人来说。

You could have just said the word teacher, and the person's like, I am a teacher.

你可以直接说老师这个词，对方就会说，我是一名老师。

And then that's pleasing to them.

这对他们来说是令人高兴的。

They feel seen.

他们感觉自己被看见了。

The other person hated their teacher.

另一个人讨厌他们的老师。

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。

Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.

去年，在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我成为了 Function 成员。

Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health.

Function 提供 100 多项高级实验室测试，为您提供整个身体健康状况的关键快照。

This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more.

此快照为您提供有关心脏健康、激素健康、免疫功能、营养水平等方面的见解。

Yeah.

是的。

Fascinated by it.

被它迷住了。

Yeah.

是的。

Very, very distinct aspect of the comedy experience.

喜剧体验非常非常独特的方面。

You know what I mean?

你知道我的意思？

At a big rock concert, I mean, the singer might put out a fist to someone in the audience or even let somebody sing for a moment.

我的意思是，在一场大型摇滚音乐会上，歌手可能会向观众中的某人伸出拳头，甚至让某人唱歌一会儿。

But maybe let someone up on stage.

但也许可以让某人上台。

But crowd work is like, you're really giving up a lot of control.

但群体工作就像，你真的放弃了很多控制权。

Yeah.

是的。

Right, if you ask a question, I mean, you have to be able to work off whatever comes back.

是的，如果你问一个问题，我的意思是，你必须能够解决所有回来的问题。

Do you do crowd work?

你做群众工作吗？

I mean, I feel like crowd work is just part of the arsenal of skills you have over time as a comedian.

我的意思是，我觉得群体工作只是作为一名喜剧演员所拥有的技能的一部分。

You have to be able to improvise.

你必须能够即兴发挥。

You have to be able to handle crowd work.

您必须能够处理人群工作。

You have to be able to write material.

你必须能够写材料。

You have to be able to do all those things.

你必须能够做所有这些事情。

I don't go up and do crowd work shows.

我不会上去做群众工作表演。

There are some people that are like, this is a crowd work show.

有些人会说，这是一场群众工作表演。

Right, you're no longer connected to them in the same way.

是的，你不再以同样的方式与他们联系。

Exactly.

确切地。

They know that there's a disconnect now.

他们知道现在断绝了联系。

You're ignoring that?

你忽略这一点吗？

So that's how you stay in having-- you have to maintain the skill set.

所以这就是你如何保持——你必须保持技能。

Some people make it more of an emphasis of their show.

有些人把它作为他们节目的重点。

And there's really, really good people at doing that.

确实有非常非常擅长这样做的人。

I feel like it's also part-- it's more of like the DNA of New York comics, too.

我觉得这也是纽约漫画的 DNA 的一部分。

I've always thought that the level of proficiency there is really high in that scene.

我一直觉得那个场景的熟练程度确实很高。

More of a back and forth.

更多的是来回。

It's the small venues--

就是那些小场地——

Yeah.

是的。

I go to the Comedy Cellar when I'm out there.

当我外出时，我会去喜剧地窖。

I don't know if it's still one of the main places.

我不知道它是否仍然是主要地点之一。

Oh, absolutely.

哦，绝对是。

If there's a better one, let me know.

如果有更好的，请告诉我。

But my sister's always like, are we going to go to the Cellar again?

但我姐姐总是问，我们要再去地窖吗？

Yeah, Cellar is fantastic.

是的，地窖太棒了。

Our favorite nights there actually were nights where it was pretty bad and we can laugh about that.

我们最喜欢的夜晚实际上是那些非常糟糕的夜晚，我们可以对此一笑置之。

Yeah.

是的。

But there have been a few nights there where it just killed.

但有几个晚上它就死了。

Yeah.

是的。

And actually, there was one night.

事实上，有一个晚上。

I asked my sister, this happened.

我问姐姐，原来是这样。

Chappelle just leaves Radio City Hall, shows up with his entourage, and just hops up on stage.

查佩尔刚刚离开无线电市政厅，与他的随行人员一起出现，然后跳上舞台。

And just, that only happens in New York City.

只是，这种情况只发生在纽约市。

Yeah.

是的。

I don't think that really happens in Los Angeles terribly often.

我认为这种情况在洛杉矶并不经常发生。

He's done that quite a few times.

他已经这样做过好几次了。

He just rolls in?

他刚滚进来？

Yeah, he's done that in LA a number of times.

是的，他在洛杉矶已经做过很多次了。

He's done it in San Francisco a bunch.

他在旧金山已经做过很多次了。

I'm saying, it's pretty well known.

我是说，这是众所周知的。

He'll come into the store.

他会进商店。

That's his thing?

那是他的事？

Yeah.

是的。

He loves the stage.

他热爱舞台。

And sometimes, he'll be up there in legitimately three or four hours.

有时，他会在合理的三四个小时内到达那里。

Yeah, he stayed.

是的，他留下来了。

We ended up going home because we eventually just called it a night and we were leaving.

我们最终回家了，因为我们最终就到此为止了，然后我们就要离开了。

And his team was like, you're really going to leave?

他的团队说，你真的要离开吗？

We'd had enough.

我们已经受够了。

But it was just unbelievable to me that at this stage of his career, that he was just going to wander in and start doing comedy.

但令我难以置信的是，在他职业生涯的这个阶段，他居然会闲逛并开始拍喜剧。

It does, yeah.

确实如此，是的。

I mean, it's still one of the few venues where you can see greats.

我的意思是，它仍然是少数几个可以看到伟人的场所之一。

I got to see you at the Belly Up in Aspen.

我在阿斯彭的 Belly Up 见到你。

That's a small-ish smallish venue.

那是一个很小的场地。

That was fun, yeah.

那很有趣，是的。

Or you can go to a stadium.

或者你可以去体育场。

What's the largest stadium crowd you've done?

你经历过的最大规模的体育场人群是多少？

It's more than--

这不仅仅是——

The biggest crowd I did was a little over 17,000 at Climate Pledge Arena in Seattle.

我参加的人数最多的活动是在西雅图的气候承诺竞技场，人数超过 17,000 人。

Yeah, so huge difference of scale there.

是的，规模差异如此之大。

Yeah.

是的。

Not many public facing things occupy those levels of scale.

没有多少面向公众的事物能达到如此规模。

I have a question about cultural standards.

我有一个关于文化标准的问题。

Yeah.

是的。

And what's really funny.

真正有趣的是。

So if you look back to comedians at a time where cursing on stage wasn't allowed, pre-Lenny Bruce.

所以，如果你回顾一下在莱尼·布鲁斯之前不允许在舞台上咒骂的喜剧演员。

Yeah.

是的。

Right?

正确的？

Is any of that comedy funny?

那部喜剧有趣吗？

Meaning, now there's been this expansion of what you can say, even just cursing.

意思是，现在你可以说的话已经扩大了，甚至只是咒骂。

And so if we look at-- earlier, we were talking about working out.

因此，如果我们看看之前，我们正在谈论锻炼。

Muscular bodies looked very different in films in the '40s.

四十年代的电影中肌肉发达的身体看起来非常不同。

You'd say, well, that person isn't very big by today's standards.

你可能会说，以今天的标准来看，这个人并不算很高大。

But you'd say they're very fit, right.

但你会说他们非常合适，对吧。

Or she was very beautiful and very sexy in the '70s, but very different look than the '90s and 2000s.

或者她在70年代非常美丽、非常性感，但与90年代和2000年代的样子截然不同。

Yes.

是的。

The male one, by the way, is hilarious for the leading man of the '40s and '50s.

顺便说一句，对于 40 年代和 50 年代的男主角来说，男主角很搞笑。

They were very slender.

他们非常苗条。

Now they're like--

现在他们就像——

I mean not--

我的意思是不——

--superheroes.

——超级英雄。

They'd be slender and also not even very well defined.

它们会很细长，而且轮廓也不是很清楚。

And they'd be like, this is the stud of the-- you know what I mean?

他们会说，这是——你明白我的意思吗？

Of the movie.

电影里的。

A guy who's not wearing a shirt.

一个没穿衬衫的家伙。

And you're like, this guy is not active.

你会想，这家伙不活跃。

And you're like, no, this is the stud of the movie.

你会说，不，这是电影里的主角。

Right.

正确的。

Right.

正确的。

That's just a different time.

那只是不同的时间。

Just a different time, different standard.

只是时间不同，标准不同而已。

And then, of course, standards of women's bodies have changed.

当然，女性身体的标准也发生了变化。

Sometimes more voluptuous.

有时更妖娆。

In the '90s, it was the waif-y look.

20世纪90年代，流行的是流浪者造型。

And these things mirror what's going on in society to some degree.

这些事情在某种程度上反映了社会正在发生的事情。

But if you listen to comedy pre-Lenny Bruce, pre-swearing, is any of it really funny to you?

但如果你听莱尼·布鲁斯之前的喜剧，在咒骂之前，其中有任何对你来说真的很有趣吗？

Well, to me, I feel like I would probably listen to most of that with that mind of-- because what happens with comedy, too, is, to be fair to those people, is you end up hearing so many versions of what they did.

好吧，对我来说，我觉得我可能会带着这样的想法来听大部分内容——因为喜剧也会发生这样的情况，公平地说，你最终会听到他们所做的事情的很多版本。

Things that are just derivative of other styles and types of jokes and types of performances.

这些东西只是其他风格和类型的笑话和表演类型的衍生品。

If I heard this guy in 1945 doing these jokes and he's killing in this room, I would go-- I'd probably hear the joke and be like, oh yeah, I know this joke.

如果我在 1945 年听到这个人讲这些笑话，并且他在这个房间里杀人，我会去——我可能会听到这个笑话，然后说，哦，是的，我知道这个笑话。

I know 10 versions of that joke, because I've heard them.

我知道这个笑话的 10 个版本，因为我听过它们。

Even though it's the original?

虽然是原版的？

Even though it's the original, yeah.

虽然是原版，但是还是可以的

Because I feel like that even happens with well-known comedians.

因为我觉得这种情况甚至发生在知名喜剧演员身上。

I was born in '79.

我出生于79年。

So my exposure, I wasn't really conscious and aware of the Pryor era, right.

所以我的曝光，我并没有真正意识到和意识到普赖尔时代，对吧。

And he's like a god in standup.

他就像站立的神一样。

He's considered the best comedian ever.

他被认为是有史以来最好的喜剧演员。

By most, it seems.

大多数人看来是这样。

By a lot of people.

受到很多人的欢迎。

He's on the Mount Rushmore of comedy.

他是喜剧界的拉什莫尔山。

He's definitely on the Mount Rushmore.

他肯定在拉什莫尔山上。

But I felt like by the time that I heard Pryor, I had heard so many people that were influenced by Pryor, that hearing the original version wasn't like-- it wasn't like I'm doubled over laughing.

但我觉得当我听到 Pryor 的时候，我听过很多人都受到 Pryor 的影响，听到原版并不像——这不像我笑得弯腰。

I'm hearing every other version.

我听过所有其他版本。

They're clearly inspired and taking from him.

他们显然受到了他的启发和借鉴。

So it seems with comedy, unlike with music or poetry or books, there isn't that much carry forward.

因此，与音乐、诗歌或书籍不同，喜剧似乎没有太多的发展。

So for instance, I mean, I was very, very young if-- and in some cases, not born when the Rolling Stones were doing their great work, or the Beatles, or Elvis, right.

举例来说，我的意思是，如果——在某些情况下，我还没有出生在滚石乐队、披头士乐队或猫王乐队正在创作伟大作品的时候，对吧。

But that music is awesome.

但那音乐真棒。

Yeah, yeah.

是啊是啊。

That's different.

那是不同的。

The fact that many people have taken bits and pieces from those.

事实上，很多人都从中吸取了一些东西。

You can't create an amazing Clash song the way the Clash did it.

你无法像 Clash 那样创作一首令人惊叹的 Clash 歌曲。

They did it best.

他们做得最好。

And it will always like-- Death Or Glory will be like-- I don't care how many songs were derivatives of that.

它总是会像——死亡或荣耀会像——我不在乎有多少歌曲是它的衍生品。

That song still kills.

那首歌至今仍能杀人。

Yeah.

是的。

And so comedy seems different.

所以喜剧似乎有所不同。

I think it's different in that regard.

我认为在这方面有所不同。

I definitely think it's different.

我绝对认为这是不同的。

I think that it's one of those things where it's always shifting.

我认为这是一直在变化的事情之一。

Also what's funny has-- it really is directly related to what's happening in the real time.

有趣的是——它确实与实时发生的事情直接相关。

In the time you're living in.

在你生活的那个时代。

You can see whether it's from stand up or movies, jokes that aren't funny, that were very funny in 1982, and 1995, and 2007, that you go-- it's just shifted, right.

你可以看到，无论是单口喜剧还是电影，那些不好笑的笑话，在 1982 年、1995 年和 2007 年非常有趣，你去看看——它只是发生了变化，对吧。

It's not funny anymore.

这不再好笑了。

Yeah, I once went to this thing in San Francisco around New Year's.

是的，我曾经在新年期间去过旧金山的这个地方。

And they literally wheeled out-- is it Henny Youngman or Benny Youngman or something?

他们真的推出了——是亨尼·扬曼（Henny Youngman）还是本尼·扬曼（Benny Youngman）还是什么？

He was doing these knock knock jokes and he was probably in his late 90s.

他正在讲这些敲门笑话，他可能已经 90 多岁了。

He was forgetting the punchlines.

他忘记了笑点。

But occasionally he'd nail one.

但偶尔他也会钉一个。

Yeah.

是的。

It was not funny.

这并不好笑。

Yeah.

是的。

It was almost embarrassing.

这几乎令人尴尬。

But you were like, wow, this guy still thinks it's funny.

但你会想，哇，这家伙仍然认为这很有趣。

He's still going.

他还在走。

So there was some amusement.

于是就有了一些乐趣。

But you looked at the older people in the crowd.

但你看看人群中的老年人。

And they were like, oh my god, it's bringing me back.

他们就像，天哪，它让我回来了。

Yeah, so--

是的，所以——

And you're like, oh my goodness.

你就像，天哪。

But no one else was laughing.

但没有人在笑。

Right.

正确的。

But as you're describing, some people might look at some comedy-- I'm not going to name names, because I'm not versed enough in comedy-- but from the '70s or '80s and be like, yeah, that's just raw.

但正如你所描述的，有些人可能会看一些喜剧——我不会点名，因为我对喜剧不够精通——但是从 70 年代或 80 年代开始，他们会说，是的，那只是原始的。

But it doesn't really do anything for me.

但它实际上对我没有任何作用。

I'll tell you, this is a very simple example.

我告诉你，这是一个非常简单的例子。

But I can recall that 20 years ago, if a guy was in a club and there was two guys sitting there in the front row together or whatever, a lot of comments would be like, what, are you guys a couple?

但我记得 20 年前，如果一个人在俱乐部里，有两个人坐在前排或者其他什么地方，很多评论会是这样的，什么，你们是情侣吗？

And then that would sometimes prompt laughs.

有时这会引起笑声。

People would laugh.

人们会笑。

They would be like, oh, they're a couple.

他们会说，哦，他们是一对。

Yeah, yeah.

是啊，是啊。

It was considered, oh, it's funny you're implying that they're romantic couple.

有人认为，哦，有趣的是你暗示他们是浪漫的情侣。

And I feel just the way society evolves, today, people would be like, and?

我觉得社会发展的方式，今天，人们会像，然后？

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

I mean, growing up, when you-- I mean, I'm a little bit older than you are.

我的意思是，在成长过程中，当你——我的意思是，我比你大一点。

Yeah.

是的。

I remember the first gay characters showing up in film and reality TV.

我记得第一个同性恋角色出现在电影和真人秀节目中。

It was a huge deal.

这是一件大事。

Yeah.

是的。

Right?

正确的？

And then so things have really changed.

然后事情就真的发生了变化。

So what is-- yeah, things have really changed.

那么，是的，事情确实发生了变化。

No one's ever been funnier than Eddie Murphy, ever.

从来没有人比艾迪·墨菲更有趣。

Him in his prime of his being funny, there's just nothing-- he's a total prodigy, once in a lifetime type of talent.

他正处于风趣的巅峰期，没有什么——他是一个十足的神童，一生一次的天才。

Right, so funny.

对了，太搞笑了。

If you put Delirious on for a 21-year-old today, they would be like, what the fuck is happening?

如果你今天给一个 21 岁的人戴上《Delirious》，他们会说，到底发生了什么？

There's things in it that are just-- they're just too dated now.

其中有些东西现在已经过时了。

You know what I mean?

你知道我的意思？

Just concepts that are-- he's still funny as shit.

只是概念——他仍然很有趣。

But those bits will not land like they would in '83.

但这些比特不会像 83 年那样落地。

They just wouldn't.

他们就是不肯。

Let's talk about the darkness of comedy.

我们来谈谈喜剧的黑暗。

I once had the experience of going to the Comedy Cellar with some friends.

我曾经有过和一些朋友一起去喜剧地窖的经历。

And this guy got up there.

这家伙站起来了。

I don't remember his name.

我不记得他的名字了。

And it was super dark.

而且天超级黑。

I mean, it was like clowns with vans doing terrible-- I mean, it was just so dark.

我的意思是，这就像小丑开着货车表现得很糟糕——我的意思是，天太黑了。

And the only thing that was hysterical about it was the fact that he seemed freaked out by it, too.

唯一让人歇斯底里的是，他似乎也被这件事吓坏了。

What he was saying was horrible.

他说的话太可怕了。

He was saying horrible--

他说的是可怕的——

Horrible things that had gone through his mind.

他脑子里闪过了一些可怕的事情。

Yeah.

是的。

But the fact that he thought it was horrible was what was funny.

但有趣的是他认为这很可怕。

Sure.

当然。

And we're like, whoa.

我们就像，哇。

We walked out of there and just when-- we felt like we'd been transported to someplace really unhealthy.

我们走出那里，就在这时——我们感觉自己被传送到了一个非常不健康的地方。

And I was like, man, I feel like I need a shower after that.

我当时想，伙计，我觉得在那之后我需要洗个澡。

That was intense and scary.

那是激烈而可怕的。

And--

还有——

This is my favorite thing, by the way.

顺便说一句，这是我最喜欢的事情。

Whoa.

哇哦。

And then we had the experience of running into him and his girlfriend later that night.

然后那天晚上晚些时候我们就遇到了他和他的女朋友。

And we were like, oh my god.

我们当时就想，天啊。

And he just took off.

他刚刚起飞。

He just could not handle the reflection about what had just happened in there.

他实在无法回想起刚刚发生的事情。

Really?

真的吗？

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

I'm sure he enjoyed the attention.

我确信他很享受这种关注。

He's a performer, so.

他是一个表演者，所以。

But two things occur to me around that example.

但围绕这个例子，我想到了两件事。

One is a guy who's really dark on stage, seemed like a very loving guy, at least out in public with his girlfriend.

一个是一个在舞台上非常黑暗的人，看起来是一个非常有爱心的人，至少在公共场合和他的女朋友在一起。

Almost always the case.

几乎总是如此。

Yeah.

是的。

And the other one is that where he took us and where he went was so down in the dungeon.

另一个是他带我们去的地方和他去的地方都是在地牢里。

I still get a weird feeling in my body thinking about it.

想到这里，我的身体仍然有一种奇怪的感觉。

Yeah.

是的。

But his shock at his own words was absolutely--

但他对自己的话的震惊绝对是——

Hilarious.

搞笑。

--hysterical and brilliant.

——歇斯底里，才华横溢。

And it was like, hey, let's go down into the darkness of human nature.

就像，嘿，让我们深入了解人性的黑暗。

Yeah.

是的。

I'm going to show you how dark it really is, and I'm going to leave.

我要让你看看世界到底有多黑暗，然后我就要离开。

And you're just left spinning.

而你只是在旋转。

And it still sits in my body.

它仍然留在我的身体里。

We're talking about that visceral experience.

我们正在谈论那种发自内心的体验。

Still sits in my body.

仍然坐在我的身体里。

I don't know what to make of it.

我不知道该怎么办。

It's incredible, A, that first of all, that he can access it.

令人难以置信的是，A，首先，他能够访问它。

It's great.

这很棒。

If you're talking about just as the art form, the best thing to do as an artist, any type of artist, is, I think, acknowledge and produce with the dark thoughts.

如果你谈论的是艺术形式，那么作为一名艺术家，任何类型的艺术家，我认为最好的事情就是承认黑暗思想并进行创作。

In other words, don't act like they're not there, because they're in everyone.

换句话说，不要表现得好像它们不存在一样，因为它们存在于每个人的体内。

And then put it into your art.

然后将其融入到你的艺术中。

Jung said this.

荣格这样说道。

I mean--

我的意思是——

It's just the way it is.

事情就是这样。

It's humans.

这是人类。

It's human beings.

这是人类。

Now, some of us have not as present and overwhelming dark sides and thoughts.

现在，我们中的一些人不再有那么存在的、压倒性的阴暗面和想法。

But there is darkness in everybody.

但每个人心里都有阴暗面。

The thing is, I feel like what some of the clean comics do is the lack of acknowledging it means that that darkness has to come out in some other way.

问题是，我觉得一些干净的漫画所做的是缺乏承认，这意味着黑暗必须以其他方式出现。

It just does.

确实如此。

So how does it come out?

那么它是怎么出来的呢？

Yeah.

是的。

I mean, there's very famous cases of, don't curse.

我的意思是，有一些非常著名的案例，“不要咒骂”。

And then you're doing some pretty dark things.

然后你就会做一些非常黑暗的事情。

That's a real thing, man.

这是真的，伙计。

That hey, I'm going to talk about cookies.

嘿，我要谈谈饼干。

And where do you put your socks?

你把袜子放在哪里？

I can't find my other sock.

我找不到我的另一只袜子了。

That's your fucking bit?

这就是你他妈的一点？

Talking about socks?

谈论袜子？

OK.

好的。

What are you actually really up to?

你到底在忙什么？

Yeah.

是的。

I completely agree with you.

我完全同意你的观点。

I have a friend who's a very, very well known musician.

我有一个朋友，他是一位非常非常知名的音乐家。

I won't say what genre.

什么类型我就不说了。

And what I love about his music is it encompasses every range of emotion.

我喜欢他的音乐，因为它包含了各种情感。

Yeah.

是的。

Every range.

每个范围。

And I've seen him play to huge crowds and just get so pissed.

我见过他在一大群观众面前打球，但他却非常生气。

And I've seen him do love songs, hate songs, revenge songs.

我见过他唱情歌、仇恨歌曲、复仇歌曲。

Just everything.

只是一切。

Yeah.

是的。

But in person, he's the kindest dude ever.

但就个人而言，他是有史以来最善良的人。

I mean, and he's so grounded.

我的意思是，他是如此脚踏实地。

He and his partner are the sweetest people.

他和他的伴侣是最甜蜜的人。

And she's got it, too.

她也明白了。

She's an artist, too.

她也是一位艺术家。

And some of her art, you're like, oh my god.

她的一些艺术作品，你会觉得，天啊。

And then you meet her and you're like, you're so kind, so trustworthy.

然后你见到她，你会觉得，你是如此善良，如此值得信赖。

Yeah.

是的。

So exactly what you're describing.

所以正是你所描述的。

They're in touch with it.

他们正在接触它。

They know how to channel it.

他们知道如何引导它。

Yeah.

是的。

I think it's about doing that.

我认为就是这样做的。

And I think some people-- look, I think it's also a natural human instinct to not want to acknowledge or play with the dark thoughts that you have.

我认为有些人——看，我认为不想承认或玩弄自己的黑暗想法也是人类的本能。

Right?

正确的？

You don't want to sometimes, because you go, that's an ugly side and I don't want to use that for my art or even acknowledge that it's there.

有时你不想这样做，因为你走了，这是丑陋的一面，我不想将其用于我的艺术，甚至不想承认它的存在。

But I think it's definitely the better way to go, is to actually work with it.

但我认为这绝对是更好的方法，就是实际使用它。

A lot of comics die of drug overdoses.

许多漫画家死于吸毒过量。

These days as much, it seems like there's now the healthy comics.

如今，似乎也出现了健康的漫画。

You're one of them.

你是其中之一。

And I don't know what the numbers are compared to music, like rock musicians or something.

我不知道这些数字与音乐相比是多少，比如摇滚音乐家之类的。

But if I compare to science or I compare to law.

但如果我与科学或法律进行比较。

OK, one could say, in law offices, there used to be a lot of drug use, especially in big cities and this kind of thing, stimulants.

好吧，有人可以说，在律师事务所里，曾经有很多吸毒的现象，尤其是在大城市，还有这种东西，兴奋剂。

But let's just focus on comedy for the moment.

但我们暂时只关注喜剧。

Yeah.

是的。

Not all of them, but many of them drank a lot.

不是所有人，但很多人都喝了很多酒。

A lot.

很多。

A lot, a lot.

很多很多。

Yeah.

是的。

Amphetamines sometimes.

有时会服用安非他命。

But it was like drinking, it was like part and parcel with the writer's life, sadly.

但这就像喝酒一样，它就像作家生活中不可分割的一部分，可悲的是。

That's not the case now.

现在情况并非如此。

But yeah, what are your thoughts about substances and comedy and comics?

但是，是的，您对物质、喜剧和漫画有何看法？

I think it's a combination of things.

我认为这是多种因素的结合。

I feel like a lot of comedians, that world pulls from certainly people with traumatic backgrounds.

我觉得和很多喜剧演员一样，这个世界肯定是由有创伤背景的人组成的。

There's a lot of mental health issues with comedians.

喜剧演员存在很多心理健康问题。

There's a lot of clinically depressed comedians.

有很多患有临床抑郁症的喜剧演员。

There's comedians that come into it with severe anxiety, for instance, severe depression.

有些喜剧演员带着严重的焦虑，例如严重的抑郁症进入这个行业。

Different mental health things.

不同的心理健康问题。

So usually, even outside of comedy, if you're talking about people with this type of mindset, these issues, substances come with that.

所以通常情况下，即使在喜剧之外，如果你谈论的是具有这种心态的人，这些问题、实质内容也会随之而来。

People trying to regulate and deal with those issues.

人们试图规范和处理这些问题。

Why is cynicism so unfunny?

为什么愤世嫉俗如此无趣？

Is it?

是吗？

I mean, I feel like cynicism presented in the right way, a cynical person can be funny.

我的意思是，我觉得愤世嫉俗以正确的方式呈现，一个愤世嫉俗的人可以很有趣。

I think the problem with cynicism is that it's really not-- ultimately, there's nothing hopeful in it.

我认为愤世嫉俗的问题在于它实际上没有——最终，它没有任何希望。

Cynicism takes away any feeling that things could get better.

犬儒主义消除了任何事情会变得更好的感觉。

Yeah.

是的。

Like in the world of improv, the yes/and.

就像在即兴表演的世界里一样，是/和。

I feel like cynicism shuts it down.

我觉得愤世嫉俗会阻止它。

Well, that's true.

嗯，确实如此。

In the case of-- I'm just saying, some people have this cynical take on things that are still funny people.

就我而言，我只是说，有些人对仍然很有趣的事情抱有愤世嫉俗的态度。

Yeah, if you negate a thought in improv, the whole thing is over.

是的，如果你否定即兴创作的想法，那么整个事情就结束了。

It just dies.

它就死了。

If you're like, it's hot, and I'm cold.

如果你喜欢的话，天很热，而我很冷。

You're like, OK.

你就像，好吧。

We're not really going to do this, then, huh?

那么我们真的不会这么做，对吧？

You have to add to it.

你必须添加它。

Yeah, a total buzzkill.

是的，完全是一个嗡嗡声。

Yeah.

是的。

So you just go, I don't want to be around that.

所以你走吧，我不想再这样了。

I think ultimately, the best mode to be in for comedy is you actually want to be inclusive.

我认为最终，喜剧的最佳模式是你真正想要包容。

I mean, you're like, right?

我的意思是，你就像，对吧？

You're saying things that people want to nod along with.

你说的话人们想要点头同意。

And if you're just like, shit's not going to work out, it never does.

如果你只是觉得，这事不会有结果，那就永远不会有结果。

No one's like, this is fucking fun, man.

没有人会说，这太他妈有趣了，伙计。

This is really funny.

这真的很有趣。