The Mental Frame & Specific Daily Actions to Succeed | Andy Stumpf

成功的心理框架和具体的日常行动|安迪·斯坦普夫

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Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Pick the choice as often as possible that is slightly more difficult.

尽可能多地选择难度稍大的选项。

To me, it's the small stuff that nobody sees that makes the biggest difference in the world.

对我来说，正是那些没人看到的小事才给世界带来了最大的改变。

Everybody knows the harder choice versus the easier choice.

每个人都知道更难的选择与更容易的选择。

Everybody, to include myself, will look externally and say, "What do I need to do?" I know what I need to do, and so do they.

每个人，包括我自己，都会向外看并说：“我需要做什么？”我知道我需要做什么，他们也知道。

They need to do the thing, then even if it's microscopic, that they want to do less more often than they do the thing that they want to do more.

他们需要做一些事情，即使是微观的，他们想做的事情比做他们想做的事情要多。

That, over time, is the juice.

随着时间的推移，这就是果汁。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

欢迎来到胡伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

My guest today is Andy Stumpf, a retired Navy SEAL and subsequently a member of the Red Bull High Performance Team, where he was a wingsuiter, where they literally get into what some people call squirrel suits and fly.

今天我的嘉宾是安迪·斯坦普夫（Andy Stumpf），他是一名退役海豹突击队员，后来成为红牛高性能团队的成员，他是一名翼装运动员，他们实际上穿上了一些人所说的松鼠服并飞了起来。

He set two world records wingsuiting.

他创造了两项翼装飞行世界纪录。

But today's discussion is not really prompted by his career in the military, nor his wingsuiting, although it does impact the discussion.

但今天的讨论并不是真正由他的军事生涯或他的翼装飞行引发的，尽管它确实影响了讨论。

Today's discussion was prompted by my reading of Andy's recent book called "Drownproof." Now, there are a lot of books out there by former Navy SEALs, but upon reading it, I realized that this was a special book, and that Andy's experience and the lessons he shares, and most importantly the tools he shares, are both unique and indeed important for everyone to hear.

今天的讨论是由我阅读安迪最近的书《防淹》引发的。现在，有很多前海豹突击队队员的书，但读完后，我意识到这是一本特别的书，安迪的经验和他分享的教训，最重要的是他分享的工具，都是独一无二的，对于每个人来说确实很重要。

For instance, he describes a tool in there that I now use every single week, which has allowed me and many other people, and I'm certain you, to separate out issues of concern versus issues of impact.

例如，他描述了我现在每周都会使用的一个工具，它使我和许多其他人（我相信你也如此）能够区分所关注的问题和有影响的问题。

Meaning to allow you to actually be able to impact, perhaps not control, but certainly have an impact on certain things while ignoring the issues in life that distract you, that pull you into drama, and that can numb you out, and that essentially waste your life.

意思是让你真正能够影响，也许不能控制，但肯定会对某些事情产生影响，同时忽略生活中那些分散你注意力的问题，那些让你陷入戏剧性的事情，那些会让你麻木的事情，而这实际上是在浪费你的生命。

Today, you'll learn what that exercise is and how to implement it in your life.

今天，您将了解这项练习是什么以及如何在生活中实施它。

You'll also learn a lot of other simple tools about how to take the slightly harder road in certain moments versus the easier road.

您还将学习许多其他简单的工具，了解如何在某些时刻走稍微困难的道路，而不是走更容易的道路。

You'll also learn from Andy about the most difficult things that he encountered in life and how he navigated them.

您还将向安迪了解他生活中遇到的最困难的事情以及他如何应对这些事情。

And no, those weren't in the military, nor wingsuiting.

不，那些人既不是军队的，也不是翼装飞行的。

It actually comes from his personal life, which he shares very candidly.

这实际上来自他的个人生活，他非常坦诚地分享。

And finally, we have a very serious, and in many ways, somewhat emotional discussion about suicide and mental health more generally.

最后，我们对自杀和心理健康进行了一次非常严肃的、在很多方面都有些情绪化的讨论。

I do hope that that discussion will benefit all of you.

我确实希望这次讨论能让你们所有人受益。

I'm certainly, we are certainly, I should say, very open to your input.

我当然，我应该说，我们当然对您的意见非常开放。

That discussion, of course, raises more questions than it provides answers.

当然，这种讨论提出的问题多于提供的答案。

But I think we can all agree that this is an extremely important and timely topic.

但我想我们都同意这是一个极其重要和及时的话题。

The frequency of suicide is increasing significantly in all communities.

所有社区的自杀频率都在显着增加。

So for reasons related to the range and the nature of the specific topics that we discuss today, you're in for a very special episode.

因此，由于与我们今天讨论的特定主题的范围和性质相关的原因，您将看到一个非常特别的情节。

Thank you, Andy Stumpf.

谢谢你，安迪·斯坦普夫。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。

In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.

为了与这个主题保持一致，今天的节目确实有赞助商。

All right.

好的。

My book is finally ready for release.

我的书终于准备出版了。

"Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body" is coming out in three months.

《协议：人体操作手册》将在三个月内出版。

It's my first book, and I've been working on it for many years now, and it's really a reflection of decades of research and experience that came even prior to starting the book.

这是我的第一本书，我已经为此工作了很多年，它确实反映了在开始本书之前数十年的研究和经验。

My goal for this book is that it serves as an easy-to-use manual for dealing with any number of different pain points or performance goals that you might have in terms of mental health, physical health, and performance.

我写这本书的目标是，它可以作为一本易于使用的手册，用于处理您在心理健康、身体健康和绩效方面可能存在的各种不同的痛点或绩效目标。

It covers the science and most effective protocols for sleep, nutrition, exercise, focused learning, and neuroplasticity, stress management, and much more.

它涵盖了睡眠、营养、锻炼、专注学习、神经可塑性、压力管理等方面的科学和最有效的方案。

I'm super excited to share it with all of you.

我非常高兴与大家分享。

The launch date is September 15th.

发布日期为 9 月 15 日。

You can learn more about it or pre-order by going to protocolsbook.com.

您可以访问protocolbook.com 了解更多信息或进行预订。

It's also available on amazon.com, and I'm super excited that "Protocols" is finally ready for release.

它也可以在 amazon.com 上找到，我非常兴奋“Protocols”终于准备好发布了。

And as always, thank you for your interest in science.

一如既往，感谢您对科学的兴趣。

And now for my discussion with Andy Stumpf.

现在我与安迪·斯坦普夫进行讨论。

Andy Stumpf, welcome.

安迪·斯坦普夫，欢迎。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Thank you for having me.

谢谢你有我。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I read your book, "Drownproof," recently.

我最近读了你的书《防淹》。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Which makes me nervous, by the way.

顺便说一下，这让我很紧张。

I've told you that before we started.

在我们开始之前我已经告诉过你了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Listen, I've read a lot of books, including a lot of the quote-unquote SEAL books.

听着，我读过很多书，包括很多引用不引用的海豹突击队书籍。

It's awesome.

太棒了。

I'll mention a few of the reasons why it's awesome, but I'll let people read it for themselves.

我会提到它很棒的一些原因，但我会让人们自己阅读它。

But just to really get right to it, one of the practices that you describe in the book is something that I decided to do right away, and I've been doing every week since I listened to it.

但为了真正做到这一点，你在书中描述的实践之一是我决定立即做的事情，自从我听了它以来我每周都在做。

Now granted, I just listened to the book a few weeks ago.

现在当然了，几周前我刚刚听了这本书。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yep.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So that means twice.

所以这意味着两次。

But I've found it to be tremendously useful, not just during the exercise, but in the days that follow.

但我发现它非常有用，不仅在练习期间，而且在接下来的几天里。

And it's really remapped a lot of what I would call my unhealthy tendencies and given me much more sense of agency, and my days are just going so much better.

它确实重新映射了我所说的很多不健康倾向，并给了我更多的代理感，我的日子过得好多了。

In fact, I was on time today for the first time in my life.

事实上，今天是我有生以来第一次准时。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Influence versus concern?

影响力与关注度？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yes.

是的。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So could you describe this simple exercise, because I'll tell you, having done it, it is immensely powerful.

那么您能否描述一下这个简单的练习，因为我会告诉您，完成后，它的功能非常强大。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I only wish I had learned about it, like, in junior high school.

我只希望我在初中时就了解过它。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Story of my life.

我一生的故事。

Yeah.

是的。

So first off, not my creation.

首先，这不是我的创作。

This is something I don't remember, and I think I said this multiple times in the book, because I want to be very clear that of basically taking ownership over nothing in that book because they're not my unique ideas.

这是我不记得的事情，我想我在书中多次说过这一点，因为我想非常清楚地表明，基本上对书中的任何内容都拥有所有权，因为它们不是我独特的想法。

They were things that were taught to me that I'm trying to pass forward.

这些是我教给我的东西，我正在努力传承下去。

So I don't remember exactly where I first saw this.

所以我不记得我第一次看到这个的确切位置。

But the way it was first positioned to me was your circle or sphere of influence, which is very small, and your sphere of concern, which for most people, to include myself, is very large.

但首先给我的定位是你的影响圈或者说影响范围很小，而你的关注范围对于大多数人来说，包括我自己，是很大的。

So if it was the size of this table, that would be your concern.

因此，如果是这张桌子的大小，那将是您所关心的。

The influence would be the size of a pin drop on the table.

影响是针落在桌子上的大小。

And the exercise is actually really simple.

这个练习实际上非常简单。

Take a standard piece of paper, draw a line down the middle.

拿一张标准纸，在中间画一条线。

Concern on one side, influence on the other, and you just take the time to write down the things that are occupying your waking hours.

一方面是关心，另一方面是影响，你只需花时间写下占用你清醒时间的事情。

I don't know if you're anything like me I try not to set an alarm unless I have something really pressing that day.

我不知道你是否和我一样，我尽量不设置闹钟，除非那天我有真正紧迫的事情。

But if I do wake up and my brain does a revolution, I have to get out of bed, because otherwise I'm staring at the ceiling in the bedroom.

但如果我醒来并且我的大脑进行了一次革命，我就必须起床，因为否则我就会盯着卧室的天花板。

And if I have really sticky things in the morning, I'll usually do this about once a month or once every six months now, but almost every time, that thought will be on the left-hand side of the column.

如果我早上有非常棘手的事情，我通常会每月一次或现在每六个月一次，但几乎每次，这个想法都会出现在该栏的左侧。

It's just a concern.

这只是一个担忧。

Why is it preventing me from going back to sleep?

为什么它会阻止我重新入睡？

Why can't I let go of it?

为什么我放不下它？

And it's social media, the world that we all live in.

这就是社交媒体，我们大家生活的世界。

It's things you can't control.

这是你无法控制的事情。

It's just all the stuff that you spend your energy and effort focusing on.

这只是您花费精力和精力关注的所有事情。

And then you go to the other side of that paper, and I'm still yet to find more than one thing that you can write down, and that's the direct influence that you have.

然后你转到那张纸的另一面，我仍然没有找到不止一件事你可以写下来，这就是你所具有的直接影响。

And all you really can write on that is yourself.

而你真正能写的就是你自己。

Now you can tranche that out and say your thought process, the way you speak to yourself, the way you plan your day, the way you manage your time, but all that goes back into things you can actually directly control, which leads you to the realization, or leads me to the realization, that I have no control over what happens to me in my life, but I have absolute and complete and total control over how I respond to it.

现在你可以把它分解出来，说出你的思维过程，你对自己说话的方式，你计划一天的方式，你管理时间的方式，但所有这些都可以追溯到你实际上可以直接控制的事情，这会让你意识到，或者让我意识到，我无法控制我生活中发生的事情，但我对我如何应对它有绝对、完全和完全的控制。

And I think that speaks to the agency piece.

我认为这与代理机构有关。

And it helps me, especially when I have those sticky thoughts, it helps me at least take a step back.

它对我很有帮助，尤其是当我有那些棘手的想法时，它至少可以帮助我后退一步。

I'm not going to say I'm perfect and I can put down a lot of the things that I'm concerned with, but it will identify for me a healthy or an unhealthy attachment to those things, and it does help me cross back over to, okay, I understand that this is scary or concerning, but being scared or concerned about it doesn't impact outcome.

我不会说我是完美的，我可以放下很多我关心的事情，但它会为我识别出对这些事情的健康或不健康的依恋，它确实帮助我回到，好吧，我知道这很可怕或令人担忧，但害怕或担心它不会影响结果。

Everything on the right-hand side of the paper does.

纸张右侧的所有内容均如此。

So that's what it does for me.

这就是它对我的作用。

Man, you want to talk about developing some more efficiencies?

伙计，你想谈谈提高效率吗？

It's a great tool.

这是一个很棒的工具。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

It's startling how much is going to be on the left and how-

令人惊讶的是，左边的影响有多大，以及如何——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right

右

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

...

little is going to be on the right.

右边会很少。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, it's been a game changer for me because, and maybe I misinterpreted the exercise a little bit because on the right-hand side of the page, I've been listing out the things that I can control and the things that I can do with my time.

是的，这对我来说改变了游戏规则，因为也许我有点误解了这个练习，因为在页面的右侧，我列出了我可以控制的事情以及我可以用时间做的事情。

And-

还有——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

But that still goes back to you-

但这仍然回到你身上——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah

是啊

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

...

you're controlling the management of your time.

你正在控制你的时间管理。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Okay.

好的。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

That's totally fine.

那完全没问题。

And with all these tools, I don't think there is a wrong answer.

有了所有这些工具，我认为没有错误的答案。

If it has the impact that you're looking for, again, you could titrate all that back up to you controlling yourself and what you do with your time.

如果它具有您正在寻找的影响，那么您可以再次调整所有这些，以控制自己以及您如何利用时间。

I think it's perfect.

我认为这是完美的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Again, just an awesome exercise.

再说一次，这只是一个很棒的练习。

I really encourage everyone to do it.

我真的鼓励每个人都这样做。

For me, once a week has been very helpful.

对我来说，每周一次非常有帮助。

And it just pops to mind anytime I'm thinking, like, I saw something in the news yesterday, and you start going down these rabbit holes, and you're like, "Wait, what am I doing?"

每当我想的时候，它就会突然出现在我的脑海里，比如，我昨天在新闻中看到了一些东西，然后你开始陷入这些兔子洞，然后你会想，“等等，我在做什么？”

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You're like, "What am I doing?" And we can blame the algorithms, we can blame the world, but ultimately-

你会说，“我在做什么？”我们可以责怪算法，我们可以责怪世界，但最终——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

once you realize that you're being manipulated, I think the obligation is to not follow that path.

一旦你意识到自己被操纵了，我认为你有义务不走这条路。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

The algorithm is real.

算法是真实的。

I don't know what it means.

我不知道这意味着什么。

I've listened to people argue about it ad nauseam.

我听过人们对此争论得令人作呕。

But I have the choice as to whether or not I interface with the algorithm.

但我可以选择是否与算法交互。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

And that's where the power.

这就是力量所在。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

That's what I think the algorithm is trying to do, is figure out a way to take that power away from you-

我认为这就是算法试图做的，就是找到一种方法来夺走你的权力——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

...

and put it back into their hands.

并将其放回到他们手中。

But it's optional.

但这是可选的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You learned this some years ago.

你几年前就知道了这一点。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In the teams.

在团队中。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But you still do it now about once a month.

但你现在仍然每月进行一次。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Do you carry it around with you?

你随身携带它吗？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

If you're anything like me, I spend a lot of time on airplanes.

如果你和我一样，我会在飞机上度过很多时间。

It's a really good time to occupy yourself with something that is, for me at least, productive as opposed to just tuning out and watching YouTube videos of sovereign citizens get arrested, which is one of my favorite pastimes.

现在确实是一个让自己忙于一些富有成效的事情的好时机，至少对我来说，这比仅仅关掉电视并观看主权公民被捕的 YouTube 视频更好，这是我最喜欢的消遣之一。

I highly recommend people get into it.

我强烈建议人们参与其中。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

These are the people that say, "You can't arrest me.

这些人说：“你不能逮捕我。

I'm a sovereign citizen."

我是一个主权公民。”

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Right to travel.

旅行的权利。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right to travel.

旅行的权利。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Which they do have the right to travel.

他们确实有旅行的权利。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

But you don't have the right to drive without a driver's license in all 50 states.

但在所有 50 个州，没有驾照你就没有权利开车。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Are they out there testing the law, or are they hoping that they'll get flagged and that there'll be a video so they can promote this sovereign citizen thing, or are they just really into being sovereign citizens and living their lives?

他们是在测试法律，还是希望自己会被标记，并希望有一个视频，以便他们可以宣传主权公民的事情，或者他们只是真的想成为主权公民并过自己的生活？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I think some of them fall under the first category, and I think some of them actually just legitimately believe.

我认为他们中的一些人属于第一类，而且我认为他们中的一些人实际上只是合理地相信。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

There's amazing things on the internet.

互联网上有一些令人惊奇的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

You shouldn't believe all of them.

你不应该相信所有这些。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Maybe even most of them.

也许甚至是他们中的大多数。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

That's a fair point, actually.

事实上，这是一个公平的观点。

The vast majority of things you should take, I think, with a large dose of scrutiny on the internet.

我认为，绝大多数事情你应该在互联网上进行大量审查。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We're about the same age, so late 40s for you-

我们年龄差不多，所以你40多岁了-

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yep

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

50 for me.

对我来说是50。

I was thinking about this in light of this concern versus influence-

我是根据这种关注与影响来思考这个问题的——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

exercise, which is that they created these 10 and 20 and 30 year high school reunion things, I think for the reason that you have the choice to go back and learn about what people are doing and who's still married, who's still alive, who's thriving or whatever.

练习，就是他们创造了这些 10 年、20 年和 30 年的高中同学聚会，我认为这是因为你可以选择回去了解人们在做什么，谁还结婚了，谁还活着，谁正在蓬勃发展等等。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Whatever the reason is, we have these things called reunions.

不管出于什么原因，我们都有这些叫做团聚的事情。

But with social media, there's this opportunity to be constantly aware of everybody you grew up with, them of you, people you knew five years ago in a job that you no longer think about.

但有了社交媒体，你就有机会不断地了解和你一起长大的每个人，包括你自己，以及你五年前在一份你不再想的工作中认识的人。

So I feel like that left column now has grown tremendously.

所以我觉得左栏现在已经大大增长了。

Regardless of somebody's age, the opportunity to be aware of so many more things, not just distant in other countries and other issues entirely, but our past lives are very much anchored to us now, unless we really literally draw that line and sever from all that stuff.

无论某人的年龄如何，都有机会了解更多的事情，不仅是在其他国家和其他问题上完全遥远，而且我们过去的生活在很大程度上与我们现在息息相关，除非我们真的划清界限并与所有这些东西断绝关系。

Because as much as I wish the best for all my classmates and all these people in graduate school and whatever-

因为尽管我祝愿我所有的同学和研究生院的所有这些人一切顺利——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

a lot of it should not occupy one's mind.

很多事情不应该占据一个人的头脑。

Do you ever wonder whether social media itself is making it harder to do this exercise?

您是否想知道社交媒体本身是否让这项练习变得更加困难？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I think it could be.

我想可能是这样。

Do you know who Chad Wright is?

你知道查德·赖特是谁吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yes.

是的。

I know of him, and we've corresponded a little bit.

我认识他，我们也有过一些通信。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

He is hilarious.

他很搞笑。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We should probably describe it.

我们或许应该描述一下它。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

He does the same type of stuff that Goggins does.

他做的事情和戈金斯一样。

He's an endurance athlete.

他是一名耐力运动员。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Long red beard.

长长的红胡子。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I call him the Forest Gump of the SEAL teams, to his face.

我当面称他为海豹突击队中的“森林阿甘”。

So I'm comfortable saying it.

所以我很舒服地说出来。

He's amazing.

他太棒了。

I've had him on the show a couple of times, knew him when we were in the teams together.

我曾让他参加过几次节目，当我们一起组队时就认识他了。

And he came on my show in November.

十一月份他出现在我的节目中。

And I don't know how we started talking about it, but it was this conversation around screen time.

我不知道我们是如何开始谈论它的，但这是围绕屏幕时间的对话。

It's like, "All right, bud.

就像是，“好吧，伙计。

Let's pull the phones out.

我们把手机拿出来吧。

Let's see what we got." It's not awesome.

让我们看看我们得到了什么。”这并不了不起。

I think it was four and a half hours.

我想那是四个半小时。

So we decided that in January of this year, we're going to try to drive our screen time per day to under an hour for total phone usage.

因此，我们决定在今年 1 月，尝试将手机总使用时间每天减少到一个小时以下。

I think phone calls we were able to strip out of that.

我认为我们可以从电话中剔除这一点。

I think the closest he got was about 90 minutes, and then the last week of January for me, I got mine down to 30 minutes.

我认为他最接近的时间大约是 90 分钟，然后对我来说，一月份的最后一周，我把我的时间缩短到了 30 分钟。

Now, for clarity, I was still doing a lot of the stuff that I was doing on my phone, but I forced it over to my laptop, which was a really interesting experience because it's way less sticky on that platform.

现在，为了清楚起见，我仍然在手机上做很多事情，但我将其强制转移到我的笔记本电脑上，这是一次非常有趣的体验，因为它在该平台上的粘性要小得多。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

So Instagram on your laptop sucks.

所以笔记本电脑上的 Instagram 很糟糕。

It's not intuitive.

这不直观。

The things that you would normally just do with your thumb, they don't exist, so you end up closing your laptop up.

您通常只需用拇指即可完成的操作现在并不存在，因此您最终会合上笔记本电脑。

So I'd get on there, post what I wanted to, and then just leave.

所以我会在那里发布我想发布的内容，然后离开。

My mental health was better in January than it had been in a long time.

一月份我的心理健康状况比很长一段时间以来都要好。

So I 100% think that social media is not only designed to suck up as much as that left-hand portion of your list as possible, but again, it's optional.

因此，我 100% 认为社交媒体不仅旨在尽可能多地吸收列表左侧的部分，而且它是可选的。

You create content.

你创造内容。

You have a massive platform.

你有一个巨大的平台。

I create content.

我创造内容。

We can easily tell ourselves we have to exist on these platforms, which to a degree we do.

我们可以轻松地告诉自己，我们必须存在于这些平台上，在某种程度上我们确实做到了。

The question I ask myself is, is the platform working for me, or am I working for it?

我问自己的问题是，这个平台是为我工作，还是我为它工作？

And that's the healthy relationship.

这就是健康的关系。

And I think actually that goes right back to that exercise.

我认为实际上这又回到了那个练习。

Am I targeting what I do with my time and being efficient with it and then moving on, or am I just getting stuck into this thumb scroll of death, which is right before bed.

我是否有目标地利用我的时间并高效地利用它，然后继续前进，或者我只是陷入了这个死亡的拇指卷轴，就在睡觉前。

I've heard you say it's the best time to have electronic device light.

我听你说现在是电子设备点亮的最佳时机。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Real bright in a dark room.

在黑暗的房间里真正明亮。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Right before bed, right?

就在睡觉前，对吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

If you really want to maximize, make sure you do it first thing in the morning, too, and don't get outside and look at the sun.

如果你真的想最大化，请确保你早上第一件事也这样做，并且不要到外面看太阳。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

But it's so sticky.

但它太粘了。

I'm telling you, when I hopped over to my laptop, at first, I couldn't even figure out how to post a picture.

我告诉你，当我跳到笔记本电脑前时，一开始我什至不知道如何发布照片。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

And it's so clunky-

而且它是如此笨重-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

...

and so not intuitive that you don't want to play with it.

所以不直观，你不想玩它。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Are you still there now?

你现在还在吗？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Oh, no. I went right back to using my thumb.

哦，不。我又继续使用拇指。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What's Chad doing now with his social media?

查德现在用他的社交媒体做什么？

Is he still-

他还是——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Oh, he's probably doubled it.

哦，他可能已经翻倍了。

He said the same thing, too, by the way.

顺便说一句，他也说了同样的话。

"Man, this is amazing.

“伙计，这太棒了。

We should do this more often." And just right back to being on your thumb again by probably March.

我们应该更频繁地这样做。”大概到了三月份，就会再次出现在你的拇指上。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So what's mind-boggling about this is, and you'll tell me, "No, we're just ordinary people who were trained to do extraordinary things," but SEAL selection pairs down for every 100 guys, maybe 15 get through.

所以令人难以置信的是，你会告诉我，“不，我们只是普通人，接受过训练，可以做非凡的事情”，但海豹突击队的选拔每 100 人中就有 15 人通过。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Maybe 10.

也许是 10 个。

Consistently, right?

始终如一，对吧？

Discipline is certainly a piece of that.

纪律当然是其中的一部分。

Resilience, mental toughness, whatever language you want to throw at it.

韧性、心理韧性，无论你想用什么语言来表达。

You have that.

你有那个。

Chad has that.

查德就有这个。

You guys were weaned in that.

你们已经断奶了。

You were forged in that.

你就是这样被锻造出来的。

Then you do high-risk, high-consequence work, right, and on minimal sleep, et cetera.

然后你就会从事高风险、高后果的工作，对吧，而且睡眠时间很少，等等。

And here are two guys challenging each other to spend less time on social media, accomplish it by virtue of competition, okay, cool, and then you say revert.

这里有两个人互相挑战，要求对方减少在社交媒体上花费的时间，通过竞争来实现这一目标，好吧，很酷，然后你说恢复。

What does that say, not about SEALs- What does that say about the platforms?

这说明了什么，而不是海豹突击队——这说明了平台的什么？

Because think about the rest of the world.

因为想想世界其他地方。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

It says everything you need to know about the platform.

它包含了您需要了解的有关该平台的所有信息。

The fact that you can, like you just said, you can recognize all of those things.

事实上，就像你刚才说的，你可以认识到所有这些事情。

You can both text each other back and forth in your limited phone usage for the day, "Man, this is awesome," and 60 days later, you're back to the same behavior that led you to the November or December conversation.

你们可以在当天有限的手机使用时间内互相发短信，“伙计，这太棒了”，60 天后，你们又回到了 11 月或 12 月谈话时的相同行为。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

That's all you need to know about the platforms.

这就是您需要了解的有关平台的全部信息。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

I have to drill into this.

我必须深入研究这一点。

This is not where I thought we would go first.

这不是我认为我们首先要去的地方。

But it gets right to the heart of discipline and self-control versus-

但它直指纪律和自我控制的核心，而不是——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

influence and time, and time is everything.

影响力和时间，时间就是一切。

When you are on a social media platform, and you're scrolling away, are you aware of the time that's drifting away from you?

当您在社交媒体平台上滚动鼠标时，您是否意识到时间正在离您而去？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Are you thinking, "Why am I doing this?

你是否在想：“我为什么要这样做？

But I feel compelled to do it"?

但我觉得有必要这样做”？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Almost always.

几乎总是如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Or are you oblivious?

还是你健忘了？

Is it like being drunk, where you're not thinking about the fact that you shouldn't be doing it until you sober up?

这是否就像喝醉酒时，你没有想到在你清醒之前你不应该这样做？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I'm aware.

我知道。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I am aware that it's not healthy, and I will actually, sometimes, I don't know if you're like this.

我知道这不健康，而且我实际上有时会这样，我不知道你是否也是这样。

I talk to myself out loud.

我大声自言自语。

Somebody from the outside would probably think I'm a psychopath, but I will say to myself, "Why are you doing this?

局外人可能会认为我是个精神病患者，但我会对自己说：“你为什么要这样做？

This doesn't feel good." And just...

这感觉不太好。”而且只是...

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

For hours.

几个小时。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Not for hours.

不是几个小时。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

An hour.

一个小时。

45 minutes.

45分钟。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I can't go that far.

我不能走那么远。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I would feel as if I needed to take a shower if I went that far.

如果我走那么远，我会觉得我需要洗澡。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

But if I have 15 minutes-

但如果我有 15 分钟——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

...

man, it's enticing.

伙计，这很诱人。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

And I don't know what it is about it.

我不知道这是怎么回事。

And I don't feel joyful after doing it.

而且做完之后我并没有感到快乐。

I try not to compare myself to other people.

我尽量不将自己与其他人进行比较。

Good luck being on the internet and doing that.

祝你上网并做到这一点好运。

I try not to get caught in the negativity aspect of it because I recognize the negativity bias in myself, where you'll get 99, "This is amazing," and one guy's like, "You kind of suck." And you're just like, "You mother ..." That's the only comment you pay attention to.

我尽量不陷入其中的消极方面，因为我认识到自己的消极偏见，你会得到 99，“这太棒了”，而一个人会说，“你有点糟糕。”你就像，“你妈妈……”这是你唯一关注的评论。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The brain is wired to identify those outliers.

大脑有能力识别那些异常值。

Yeah.

是的。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

So I refuse to be mean on social media.

所以我拒绝在社交媒体上刻薄。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I won't make negative comments.

我不会发表负面评论。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Great.

太棒了。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Don't get me wrong.

别误会我的意思。

You can insult people by not being mean.

你可以通过不刻薄来侮辱别人。

Just have to work your way around it, and it takes a little bit longer.

只需要想办法解决它，而且需要更长的时间。

But I know it's not healthy.

但我知道这不健康。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I know I could do anything other than that time and be more productive and maybe move my life just a little bit in the direction I want to, but I don't.

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to take a quick break to acknowledge our sponsor, Our Place.

我想稍微休息一下，以感谢我们的赞助商“我们的地方”。

Our Place makes my favorite pots, pans, and other cookware.

我们的地方生产我最喜欢的锅、平底锅和其他炊具。

Surprisingly, toxic compounds such as PFAS or forever chemicals are still found in 80% of non-stick pans, as well as utensils, appliances, and countless other kitchen products.

令人惊讶的是，80% 的不粘锅以及餐具、电器和无数其他厨房产品中仍然含有 PFAS 或永久化学物质等有毒化合物。

As I've discussed before on this podcast, these PFAS or forever chemicals like Teflon, have been linked to major health issues such as hormone disruption, gut microbiome disruption, fertility issues, and many other health problems.

正如我之前在这个播客中讨论过的那样，这些 PFAS 或永久性化学物质（如特氟隆）与激素紊乱、肠道微生物群破坏、生育问题和许多其他健康问题等重大健康问题有关。

So it's very important to avoid them.

因此，避免它们非常重要。

This is why I'm a huge fan of Our Place.

这就是为什么我是《我们的地方》的超级粉丝。

Our Place products are made with the highest quality materials and are all PFAS and toxin-free.

我们的 Place 产品采用最优质的材料制成，不含 PFAS 和毒素。

I particularly love their Titanium Always Pan Pro.

我特别喜欢他们的 Titanium Always Pan Pro。

It's the first non-stick pan made with zero chemicals and zero coating.

这是第一个采用零化学品和零涂层制成的不粘锅。

Instead, it uses pure titanium.

相反，它使用纯钛。

This means it has no harmful forever chemicals and does not degrade or lose its non-stick effect over time.

这意味着它不含永久有害的化学物质，并且不会随着时间的推移而降解或失去其不粘效果。

It's also beautiful to look at.

看起来也很漂亮。

I cook eggs in my Titanium Always Pan Pro almost every morning.

我几乎每天早上都会用 Titanium Always Pan Pro 煮鸡蛋。

The design allows for the eggs to cook perfectly without sticking to the pan.

该设计使鸡蛋能够完美烹饪而不会粘在锅上。

I also cook burgers and steaks in it, and it always puts a really nice sear on the meat.

我还用它来做汉堡和牛排，它总是能让肉有很好的烤焦效果。

But again, nothing sticks to it, so it's really easy to clean, and it's even dishwasher safe.

但同样，没有任何东西粘在上面，所以它非常容易清洁，甚至可以用洗碗机清洗。

I love it, and I use it constantly.

我喜欢它，并且经常使用它。

So if you're looking for non-toxic, long-lasting pots and pans, go to fromourplace.com/huberman and use the code Huberman.

因此，如果您正在寻找无毒、耐用的锅碗瓢盆，请访问 fromourplace.com/huberman 并使用代码 Huberman。

With a 100-day risk-free trial, free shipping, and free returns, you can try Our Place with zero risk, and you can see why more than one million people have made the switch to Our Place kitchenware.

通过 100 天无风险试用、免费送货和免费退货，您可以零风险试用 Our Place，您就会明白为什么超过一百万人已改用 Our Place 厨具。

Today's episode is also brought to us by Wealthfront.

今天的节目也是由 Wealthfront 为我们带来的。

In today's financial landscape of constant market shifts and chaotic news, it's easy to feel uncertain about how to save and invest your money.

在当今市场不断变化、新闻混乱的金融环境中，人们很容易对如何储蓄和投资感到不确定。

Wealthfront is the solution that helps you take control of your money while managing risk.

Wealthfront 是帮助您在管理风险的同时掌控资金的解决方案。

For nearly a decade, I've trusted Wealthfront to navigate this volatility.

近十年来，我一直相信 Wealthfront 能够应对这种波动。

With the Wealthfront Cash Account, I can earn 3.3% annual percentage yield, or APY, on my cash from program banks.

通过 Wealthfront 现金账户，我可以从计划银行获得 3.3% 的现金年收益率 (APY)。

And I know my money is growing until I'm ready to spend it or invest it.

我知道我的钱会不断增长，直到我准备好花钱或投资为止。

One of the features I love about Wealthfront is that I have access to instant, no-fee withdrawals to eligible accounts 24/7.

我喜欢 Wealthfront 的功能之一是我可以 24/7 即时、免费提款到符合条件的账户。

That means I can move my money where I need it without waiting.

这意味着我可以将资金转移到需要的地方，而无需等待。

And when I'm ready to transition from saving to investing, Wealthfront lets me seamlessly transfer my funds into one of their expert-built portfolios.

当我准备好从储蓄过渡到投资时，Wealthfront 可以让我无缝地将资金转移到他们专家构建的投资组合之一。

For a limited time, Wealthfront is offering the Huberman Lab audience an exclusive 0.75% APY boost over the base rate for three months, meaning you can get up to 4.05% variable APY on up to $150,000 in deposits.

在有限的时间内，Wealthfront 为 Huberman Lab 受众提供为期三个月的独家年利率比基本利率高 0.75% 的优惠，这意味着您最多可在 150,000 美元的存款中获得高达 4.05% 的可变年利率。

Over one million people already trust Wealthfront to save more, earn more, and build long-term wealth with confidence.

超过一百万人已经相信 Wealthfront 能够充满信心地储蓄更多、赚取更多并建立长期财富。

If you'd like to try Wealthfront, you can go to wealthfront.com/huberman to receive the boost offer and start earning 4.05% variable APY today.

如果您想尝试Wealthfront，您可以访问wealthfront.com/huberman 获取提升优惠，并立即开始赚取4.05% 的可变年利率。

That's wealthfront.com/huberman to get started.

请从 Fortunefront.com/huberman 开始。

This is a paid testimonial of Wealthfront.

这是 Wealthfront 的付费推荐。

Client experiences will vary.

客户体验会有所不同。

Wealthfront brokerage is not a bank.

Wealthfront 经纪公司不是银行。

The base APY is as of January 30th, 2026, and subject to change.

基本 APY 截至 2026 年 1 月 30 日，可能会发生变化。

For more information, please see the episode description.

欲了解更多信息，请参阅剧集描述。

I've got a theory that I'm just going to share- Please ...

我有一个理论要分享 - 请......

that I've been thinking about a lot lately, having just spent some time with, let's just say, one of the major providers of online content.

最近我一直在思考这个问题，因为我刚刚与在线内容的主要提供商之一相处了一段时间。

It's not a social media platform.

它不是社交媒体平台。

So I have this theory that unlike being drunk or doing drugs of any kind, opioids or amphetamines or something, where people exit the state of intoxication, and they realize, like, "Oh my God," like, "That was a huge waste of my time, my life.

I made these mistakes," et cetera.

我犯了这些错误，”等等。

Being on social media is different because there's this awareness that we're on there, and we probably could or should be doing something else, often.

在社交媒体上是不同的，因为我们意识到我们在那里，我们可能可以或应该经常做其他事情。

And I have this theory that it's the perfect addiction because it's what I would call low resolution enough that it doesn't occupy all of your mind.

Like, when people are really intoxicated, they're not thinking about the fact that they shouldn't be intoxicated.

就像，当人们真的喝醉了时，他们不会考虑自己不应该喝醉的事实。

That's the state they're trying to achieve.

这就是他们想要达到的状态。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

This is a state that people come out of and report.

这是人们走出并报告的状态。

There are data on this.

有这方面的数据。

They go, "Yeah, it didn't feel good being on there for the last 45 minutes or 30 minutes," or, "I feel like I wasted a lot of time." So they're aware of that even while they're doing it.

他们会说，“是的，最后 45 分钟或 30 分钟在那里感觉不太好”，或者“我觉得我浪费了很多时间。”因此，即使他们正在这样做，他们也意识到了这一点。

Very unusual for addictions, right?

对于成瘾来说很不寻常，对吧？

Yeah.

是的。

Most addictions fall into the category of trying to erase the sense of time, lose themselves in the activity, forget the trauma, if you think it's trauma-related, just forget everything else and just be in this moment.

Gamblers will say this, right?

赌徒都会这么说吧？

It's that zone they crave so much.

这是他们非常渴望的区域。

This is different.

这是不同的。

Doesn't feel really good.

感觉真的不太好。

You're aware that you're not supposed to be doing it quite like that or that much.

你知道你不应该这样做或那么多。

So I actually think it's the, quote-unquote, ultimate addiction because it's low resolution enough that your brain circuits can get attached to it and keep doing it while you're monitoring yourself.

And yet you can run these two tracks at the same time, so you're not getting absorbed and coming out of it and going, "Oh my God, I didn't study for my final exam.

Oh my goodness, I didn't pick up the kids from school." It's just low resolution enough that you can still kind of tend to the kids, kind of be in a conversation, sort of be on the Zoom, sort of like, and- Kind of still be driving your car ...

天哪，我没有去学校接孩子们。” It's just low resolution enough that you can still kind of tend to the kids, kind of be in a conversation, sort of be on the Zoom, sort of like, and- Kind of still be driving your car ...

your life doesn't totally fall apart.

你的生活并没有完全崩溃。

Exactly.

确切地。

And so in some ways, because it's not so extreme, I think that's actually one of the problems.

所以在某些方面，因为它并不那么极端，我认为这实际上是问题之一。

The other problem is, of course, our brains can but are not really designed to be split into these two different activities for terribly long.

当然，另一个问题是，我们的大脑可以但实际上并没有被设计为长时间分裂为这两种不同的活动。

It's not just an inability to multitask.

这不仅仅是无法同时处理多项任务。

I actually think that low resolution thing is, you can kind of do it while you're doing other things.

我实际上认为低分辨率的事情是，你可以在做其他事情的时候做它。

Yeah.

是的。

So I'm just, this is something that I actually want some laboratories to look at.

所以我只是，这是我实际上希望一些实验室研究的东西。

Where does that lead, if left unchecked?

如果不加以控制，这会导致什么结果？

Well, for you and for me, the consequences are different and probably less immediate because we've already built our careers.

好吧，对于你和我来说，后果是不同的，而且可能不那么直接，因为我们已经建立了自己的职业生涯。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

There's the social detriment, relationships to family and stuff that undoubtedly suffer somewhat, right?

社会损害、家庭关系等无疑都会受到一些影响，对吧？

But they're doing it, too, right?

但他们也在这样做，对吧？

So there's that.

所以就是这样。

I do worry, now I really sound like I'm in my 50s, like, about the younger generation because I don't know whether I would've been able to escape this tunnel- Yeah ...

had these devices been around.

这些设备是否存在？

So I think that otherwise incredible accomplishments and human beings and careers and families and everything in between, art and music, is literally not going to be made.

I fear this much more than I fear AI, to be honest.

老实说，我对这个的恐惧远超过对人工智能的恐惧。

Yeah, much, much more.

是的，还有很多很多。

Yeah.

是的。

In terms of taking away jobs and taking away careers, I think that because it's...

就夺走工作和职业生涯而言，我认为是因为……

I'll tell you this, I am confident that it is way, way worse than the, quote-unquote, opioid crisis, which was already terrible.

我告诉你，我相信这比阿片类药物危机要严重得多，那已经很糟糕了。

I think we're going to be okay.

我想我们会没事的。

So I have three data points- Mm-hmm ...

所以我有三个数据点 - 嗯嗯......

which happen to be my children.

这恰好是我的孩子们。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

So almost 18, almost 21, almost 23.

所以快18了，快21了，快23了。

My middle son has got it dialed.

我的二儿子已经拨通了。

He's going to college in Bozeman.

他要去博兹曼上大学。

I think he's getting ready to start his junior year in mechanical engineering.

我认为他正准备开始机械工程专业的大三课程。

He's doing an internship at a quantum computing laboratory.

他正在量子计算实验室实习。

I don't know what that means.

我不知道这意味着什么。

He tries to tell me.

他试图告诉我。

I'm like, he just talked to my wife.

我想，他刚刚和我妻子谈过话。

It's super cool stuff.

这是超级酷的东西。

He made a robotic hand.

他制作了一只机械手。

Of course, the first way he tested it was a middle finger, which I deeply, deeply appreciate.

当然，他测试的第一个方式是竖中指，对此我非常非常欣赏。

He is your son.

他是你的儿子。

100%.

100%。

He exists on social media.

他存在于社交媒体上。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

He downloads the app once per week, spends an hour on it, erases it, because it's the pendulum going the other direction, for him.

他每周下载一次应用程序，花一个小时在上面，然后删除它，因为对他来说，钟摆朝另一个方向移动。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

My oldest keeps it on his phone but uses it very sporadically, and it's almost, at least, so the middle one's going to be 21.

我最大的孩子把它保存在手机上，但偶尔使用它，而且几乎是这样，至少，所以中间的那个应该是 21 岁。

The other one's going to be 23.

另一个将是23岁。

My oldest now is almost at the point, and I think his peer group is almost at the point, a little bit, of mocking people who spend- Mm-hmm ...

我现在最大的孩子几乎已经到了这个地步，我认为他的同龄人几乎已经到了嘲笑那些花钱的人的地步了——嗯……嗯……

you know what I mean?

你知道我的意思吗？

It's almost now, it's almost on the other side, like, oh

快到了，快到了另一边，就像，哦

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

You're one of those, even though they were raised with electronic devices in their hand.

你就是其中之一，尽管他们是拿着电子设备长大的。

My daughter, on the other hand, surgically connected to her hand, and is constantly consuming.

另一方面，我的女儿通过手术与她的手相连，并且不断地进食。

So I think she will get there as well too, because when I can kind of pull her out of that digital world, or we go places that have less than optimal cell coverage intentionally, and somehow the Wi-Fi doesn't show up because dad unplugs the router, be like, "Oh, there's no Wi-Fi at the house.

That sucks." She can see the light.

太糟糕了。”她能看到光。

But my other two, as they've gotten a little bit older, they have seen it and found it on their own.

但我的另外两个，随着年龄的增长，他们已经看到并自己发现了它。

And I think we're going to be okay-

我想我们会没事的-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

...

because I think that generation now is really viewing these platforms with a little bit more of a wary eye.

因为我认为现在这一代人确实以更加谨慎的眼光看待这些平台。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

And I don't know why, but my middle son was the first one.

我不知道为什么，但我的二儿子是第一个。

He just was like, "Nope, this is what I do.

他只是说：“不，这就是我所做的。

I'm on there for an hour." It's 100% for memes for him, and then he just deletes the thing.

我在那里待了一个小时。”这对他来说是 100% 的模因，然后他就删除了这个东西。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Great.

太棒了。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No, I'm very reassured by what you just said.

不，你刚才的话我就放心了。

I mean-

我的意思是——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

That's at a point of three, though.

不过，现在已经是三点了。

So-

所以——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, it's interesting because-

嗯，这很有趣，因为——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

It's all I got

这就是我所拥有的一切

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

the data on, for instance, smoking in teens.

例如，有关青少年吸烟的数据。

Like when we were growing up-

就像我们小时候一样——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

a lot of people smoked, young people smoked.

很多人吸烟，年轻人也吸烟。

You know that-

你知道——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Had to be your first act of rebellion

必须是你的第一个叛逆行为

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

there were all these campaigns to try and get young people to quit smoking, and they did not work.

所有这些运动都试图让年轻人戒烟，但都没有奏效。

It's going to give you lung cancers.

它会让你患上肺癌。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yep.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This is your lungs after smoke-- None of that worked.

这是吸烟后的肺部——这些都不起作用。

What worked was the ad campaign that had these old white dudes cackling and talking about all the money they were going to make on these young kids smoking.

So the rebellion of youth, if you leverage it against the big industry platforms-

所以年轻人的叛逆，如果用它来对抗大的行业平台——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

no one likes to be manipulated, but when kids realize and teens realize that they're being manipulated, they'll push back in a way that can be really good for them, which is a little bit of what we're hearing here.

So, you know, um-

所以，你知道，嗯-

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

As a parent, I can tell you they push back in ways super hard.

作为父母，我可以告诉你，他们会以非常强烈的方式进行反击。

Maybe-

也许-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah

是啊

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

...

almost pendulum the other way.

几乎朝另一个方向摆动。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I tell you what they're also pushing back on in my all three of their generation, alcohol consumption.

我告诉你，他们在我这三代人中也反对饮酒。

Damn.

该死。

Don't get me wrong, there's a time and place for everything.

别误会我的意思，凡事都有时间和地点。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

We go to a yearly jujitsu retreat in Costa Rica.

我们去哥斯达黎加参加一年一度的柔术静修会。

The drinking age is 18.

饮酒年龄为18岁。

One of my sons is in college, like I said.

正如我所说，我的一个儿子正在上大学。

It's an interesting watching those two.

观看这两个人很有趣。

That might be the only singular time they drink in an entire year.

这可能是他们一年中唯一一次喝酒的时间。

That was the opposite of me growing up and the culture of the first community I went into.

这与我的成长过程和我进入的第一个社区的文化相反。

It is wild to see the push in the other direction.

看到另一个方向的推动是很疯狂的。

And now talk peptides, or my middle son, I told him I was coming here, he's just like, "Oh!

现在谈谈肽，或者我的二儿子，我告诉他我要来这里，他就像，“哦！

Ask him what I need to be doing for sleep optimization." I'm like, "Oh my God."

问问他我需要做什么来优化睡眠。”我就像，“天哪。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Happy to send it to him.

很高兴寄给他。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

That's his generation.

那是他这一代人。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I think I started looking at sleep optimization about last Thursday.

我想我上周四开始研究睡眠优化。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

It just wasn't the thing that we were looking at.

这不是我们正在寻找的东西。

So I actually, as much as my children, I truly believe children are just designed to sharpen their teeth on the parents' bones, I also have a lot of faith-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

...

on the next wave coming through.

在下一波到来时。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This is not a question I ever thought I would ask on this podcast.

我从来没有想过我会在这个播客上问这个问题。

As somebody who did an episode on alcohol that got some reach and got people rethinking whether or not they wanted to drink, and I should just quickly say, the major response to that was one of three different types.

One was, "I don't like drinking, and now I can justify not drinking." There were a lot of people-

一是，“我不喜欢喝酒，现在我有理由不喝酒了。”那里有很多人——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

who felt that they had to drink, and now they had justification not to.

他们觉得自己必须喝酒，现在他们有理由不喝酒了。

Other people who said, "Wow, I didn't realize that it can increase breast cancer risk," or, "We have cancers in our family," and that's a real thing.

其他人说，“哇，我没有意识到它会增加患乳腺癌的风险”，或者“我们家里有癌症”，这是真实的事情。

It's class one carcinogen, et cetera.

它是一级致癌物等等。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And then the third category, like, "I wish you hadn't told me this information.

然后第三类，比如，“我希望你没有告诉我这个信息。

I really enjoyed drinking, and now my friends don't want to drink with me." Fair, and I don't tell people what to do, and et cetera.

我真的很喜欢喝酒，但现在我的朋友不想和我一起喝酒了。”公平，我不会告诉人们该做什么，等等。

But I have to ask, do you think that your kids and their generation are possibly missing out by virtue of not drinking at all?

但我不得不问，你认为你的孩子和他们这一代人可能会因为根本不喝酒而错过机会吗？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

That's a fantastic question.

这是一个很棒的问题。

It is a social lubricant-

它是一种社会润滑剂——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

...

for a degree.

为了一个学位。

I was probably, and still am, antisocial in large crowds.

我可能曾经并且现在仍然在人群中反社会。

Is there an aspect of that where it legitimately helped me, not necessarily feel more comfortable, but maybe get out of my own way when I was younger?

它是否在某个方面合理地帮助了我，不一定感觉更舒服，但也许在我年轻时摆脱了自己的方式？

Yes.

是的。

Did it lead to some bad decisions along the way?

在此过程中是否导致了一些错误的决定？

Yes.

是的。

Did bad decisions and those consequences shape the human being that I would become along the way?

错误的决定和那些后果是否塑造了我一路走来成为的人？

Yes.

是的。

I don't know where it lands.

我不知道它降落在哪里。

I do think that there is a chance that, yes, they are missing out on, maybe not formative life experiences, but important life experiences.

我确实认为他们有可能错过了，也许不是形成性的生活经历，而是重要的生活经历。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, I think the camera phones are a big concern with drinking now because-

嗯，我认为拍照手机现在是饮酒的一个大问题，因为-

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

people are so worried about becoming less inhibited and maybe not even saying or doing the wrong thing, but even things as trivial as like, look, not everyone is an awesome dancer.

人们非常担心变得不那么拘谨，甚至可能不会说或做错事，但即使是像这样微不足道的事情，看，并不是每个人都是很棒的舞者。

They can get filmed, they can get posted, they can get teased.

他们可能会被拍摄，他们可能会被发布，他们可能会被嘲笑。

There's social shame.

有社会耻辱。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The other problem is that many, many people are awesome at certain things, and those are the things that tend to be high amplitude also, and so people feel like if they're going to be seen online, they have to be in some-

另一个问题是，很多很多人在某些事情上都很出色，而这些事情往往也很活跃，所以人们觉得如果他们要在网上被看到，他们必须在某些方面——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

impressive form.

令人印象深刻的形式。

So I don't really know.

所以我真的不知道。

I do worry about the cannabis thing because I'm not anti-cannabis.

我确实担心大麻的事情，因为我不反对大麻。

But I do think given a couple drinks a week versus smoking weed in terms of the overall risk-benefit-

但我确实认为，就总体风险效益而言，每周喝几杯酒与吸食大麻相比——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

alcohol seems less risky to me.

酒精对我来说风险似乎较小。

But the can-

但可以——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Really?

真的吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, I think so.

是的，我想是的。

Look, there are high performers and people-

看，这里有高绩效的人和人——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

who can use cannabis, and they're like, not a problem.

谁可以使用大麻，他们就像，不是问题。

Young males in particular who have a predisposition to psychosis or bipolar disorder-

尤其是有精神病或双相情感障碍倾向的年轻男性——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

some of them smoke high-potency weed or even low-potency weed, and they never come back from the psychotic episode.

他们中的一些人吸食高效大麻甚至低效大麻，并且他们再也没有从精神病发作中恢复过来。

I know a lot of examples of that, and that's in the data now.

我知道很多这方面的例子，现在数据里都有。

So alcohol, yeah, you can drive off a cliff, you can run somebody over, you can say or do something really, really stupid.

所以酒精，是的，你可以把车开下悬崖，你可以撞倒某人，你可以说或做一些非常非常愚蠢的事情。

But assuming those things don't happen, the immediate risks and long-term consequences of having a couple beers or a couple drinks or maybe even a few more, provided you get home safe, you don't say or do anything stupid-

但假设这些事情没有发生，喝几杯啤酒或几杯饮料甚至更多的直接风险和长期后果，只要你安全回家，你就不会说或做任何愚蠢的事情——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You're not going to make yourself psychotic.

你不会让自己变得精神病。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I'm kind of in the same boat that you are.

我和你在同一条船上。

I'm not here to tell people how to live their life.

我来这里不是为了告诉人们如何生活。

I do think that they should pay attention to the risk versus reward.

我确实认为他们应该注意风险与回报。

Live your life how you want.

过你想要的生活。

Your choices are going to have potential consequences, and some of those can be pretty big.

你的选择将会产生潜在的后果，其中一些后果可能相当大。

There's some things I deeply regret about my expressions of being a human being when I was drinking when I was younger, and there are some things that I feel like my life would be completely different without, that I would never want to give those experiences back.

有些事情我对年轻时喝酒时作为一个人的表达深感遗憾，有些事情我觉得如果没有这些事情我的生活将会完全不同，我永远不想把这些经历还给我。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I don't know how you table that, though.

不过，我不知道你是如何列出的。

This is a fascinating cover.

这是一个令人着迷的封面。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I didn't know we were going to go here.

我不知道我们要去这里。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

In my own life, I wouldn't give up those experiences.

在我自己的生活中，我不会放弃这些经历。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

But I also don't feel comfortable saying you have to drink to have them.

但我也不愿意说你必须喝酒才能拥有它们。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I don't know what the difference looks like, though.

但我不知道有什么区别。

Maybe later on, as you grow into your-- I'm a more confident person now, absent alcohol, than I was a more confident person younger, absent alcohol.

也许以后，当你成长为你的——我现在是一个更自信的人，不喝酒，比我年轻时更自信，不喝酒。

So maybe time will help you get to those places where you could take those actions where you needed that social lubricant.

所以也许时间会帮助你到达那些你可以采取那些你需要社交润滑剂的行动的地方。

But maybe not.

但也许不是。

I don't know, man.

我不知道，伙计。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, it's like sleep is super important, and I think it's great for everyone, especially young people, to understand just how great they can feel and mentally and physically perform when they're well-rested.

嗯，就像睡眠非常重要一样，我认为这对每个人，尤其是年轻人来说，了解他们在充分休息时的感觉以及精神和身体表现有多好，这都是很好的。

I think it's also an important, not just rite of passage, but experience to know just how terrible you can feel after a night of no sleep- ...

我认为这也是一个重要的，不仅仅是通过仪式，而且是一种体验，让你知道一夜不眠之后你会感觉多么糟糕——......

and still go take a midterm exam-

还是去参加期中考试吧——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

or go for the run you were supposed to go for.

或者去跑步你应该去的地方。

Not because it's, quote-unquote, the best thing for you, but just because how do you explore the outer margins of your capacity unless you know how feeling really great feels and how, let's just say not lousy, but how minimally good you can feel and still complete something while you're completely crushed.

不是因为这对你来说是最好的事情，而只是因为你如何探索自己能力的外部边缘，除非你知道真正伟大的感觉是什么，让我们只是说不是糟糕，而是在你完全被压垮的时候你能感觉多么好，但仍然完成某件事。

After a breakup, after two or three nights of poor sleep, in a very stressful time, not having eaten perfectly.

分手后，两三个晚上睡不好，压力很大，吃得不好。

It's good to understand what a workout or what going to class and forcing yourself to stay awake or having a hard conversation with your significant other feels like when it's the last thing your body wants you to do.

当你的身体最不希望你做的事情是锻炼或去上课、强迫自己保持清醒或与你的另一半进行艰难的谈话时，了解一下这些感觉是很好的。

I think there's utility there.

我认为那里有实用性。

It's kind of like the ice bath of mental experiences, right?

这有点像心理体验的冰浴，对吧？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Are you a fan of the ice bath?

您是冰浴爱好者吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I am.

我是。

And-

还有——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

What temperature?

什么温度？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Cold.

冷。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

34?

34？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So on Rogan, I said low 50s, and he was shocked and dismayed.

所以对罗根来说，我说的是 50 多岁，他感到震惊和沮丧。

It was like an older brother or a guy you respect- ...

就像一个哥哥或者一个你尊敬的人——......

looking at you like, "Oh, man, should we even continue this podcast?" I was like-

看着你就像在说，“哦，伙计，我们还应该继续这个播客吗？”我当时就像——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I thought I knew you

我以为我认识你

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

and I quickly went to, "Yeah, but I go into the sauna at 220 degrees Fahrenheit," which I do.

我很快就说：“是的，但我会在 220 华氏度的温度下进入桑拿房。”我就这么做了。

I'm very heat-tolerant, not as cold-tolerant.

我很耐热，不太耐寒。

I like to do cold shower, cold plunge or whatever.

我喜欢洗冷水澡、冷水浴或其他什么。

Low 40s now.

现在40多岁了。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

All right.

好吧。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

To me, there is nothing as reliable and, provided you don't jump into an ice hole or something stupid like that, or do hyperventilation breathing and then jump into cold water, which has killed people.

对我来说，没有什么比这更可靠的了，只要你不跳进冰洞或类似的愚蠢的东西，或者进行过度换气，然后跳进冷水里，这会导致人员死亡。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Provided you don't do that, I don't know of anything that is both safe and reliably can give you that adrenaline spike in a way that you can start to learn to work with what it's like to be in a highly adrenalized state.

如果你不这样做，我不知道有什么既安全又可靠的东西可以让你的肾上腺素激增，让你开始学会在高度肾上腺素化的状态下工作。

I think that there's just value in having your body flooded with adrenaline, somewhat against your will, but you're controlling some of it, and learning, I think it's a great space to explore, okay, do I distract myself?

我认为让你的身体充满肾上腺素是有价值的，有点违背你的意愿，但你正在控制其中的一些，并且学习，我认为这是一个很好的探索空间，好吧，我会分散自己的注意力吗？

Do I lean into it?

我会倾向于它吗？

You can explore a lot of your own consciousness in these high arousal states, and I do think there's carryover.

在这些高度觉醒的状态下，你可以探索自己的很多意识，我确实认为这是有延续性的。

And yes, there's a nice long wave of dopamine-

是的，有一波很长的多巴胺——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

that lasts many hours.

这持续了好几个小时。

That's known.

这是已知的。

There's a nice long wave of adrenaline.

有一股令人愉悦的长波肾上腺素。

But yeah.

但是是的。

I think it's a great training tool.

我认为这是一个很棒的培训工具。

You don't want to do it immediately after resistance training, because it can reduce some of the, quote-unquote, "gains" you would get-

你不想在阻力训练后立即进行，因为它会减少你将获得的一些“收益”——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

because it vasoconstricts.

因为它会收缩血管。

I mean, you want blood flow.

我的意思是，你想要血液流动。

You want to perfuse the muscles in order to get the strength and the hypertrophy benefits from the training.

您想要灌注肌肉，以便从训练中获得力量和肥大效果。

But provided you do it before on off days or six hours after you resistance train, I think it's a really valuable tool.

但如果你在休息日之前或阻力训练后六个小时进行，我认为这是一个非常有价值的工具。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

What protocol would you use?

您会使用什么协议？

I like to have my cold plunge at about 80.

我喜欢在 80 岁左右进行冷跳。

What would you do?

你会怎么做？

Like 10 in, five out, couple times?

比如 10 进 5 出，几次？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

80 degrees Fahrenheit.

80 华氏度。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

It's great.

太棒了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So you got-

所以你得到了——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I can bump it to 85-

我可以把它提高到85-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah

是啊

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

...

if you think-

如果你认为——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I got it

我明白了

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

...

that that's a little too low.

这有点太低了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Team guys have this advantage that they did all that, so they can be like, "I did it.

团队成员有这样的优势，他们做到了这一切，所以他们可以说，“我做到了。

I don't want to do it." Right?

我不想这样做。”正确的？

That's kind of like, "I went through that."

这有点像“我经历过那件事”。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I don't know if that's an advantage.

我不知道这是否是一个优势。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's like the people who are sleep-deprived in medical school.

就像医学院里睡眠不足的人一样。

They're like, "Yeah, I don't do that anymore." I get it.

他们会说：“是的，我不再这样做了。”我得到它。

You guys suffered enough.

你们受够了。

When I went down to Jocko's, he specifically had me do a heat/cold protocol, because I like to do three rounds of each.

当我去乔科那里时，他特意让我做了一个热/冷方案，因为我喜欢每个方案进行三轮。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Okay.

好的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Heat at somewhere about 210, 215, maybe as high as 220, which is hot, but I'm pretty heat-tolerant.

温度大约在210、215，也许高达220，这很热，但我相当耐热。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

For how long?

持续多久？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That'd be 20 minutes.

那就20分钟吧。

And then go into the-

然后进入-

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Damn

该死的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

you don't want to start right off with that.

你不想立即开始。

And then go into the cold.

然后进入寒冷。

And so they packed the sauna, they cranked that thing up, and they kept resetting the clock.

于是他们收拾好桑拿房，把那东西调高，然后不断地重置时钟。

And literally, he'll tell you, I was down on the floor where it's- ...

从字面上看，他会告诉你，我躺在地板上，那里——......

not cool, but it's still cold-

不冷，但还是很冷——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

or heat rises, obviously.

显然，或者热量会上升。

And his daughters, they were laughing.

他的女儿们也在笑。

His family and so everyone in there, young and old, male and female, was just laughing at me.

他的家人以及那里的每个人，无论老少，无论男女，都在嘲笑我。

So he has what he calls the factory reset protocol, which is where you don't know how hot or how long you're going to be in there, and you don't know-

所以他有他所谓的恢复出厂设置协议，你不知道你会在那里有多热或多长时间，而且你不知道-

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Feels the worst?

感觉最糟糕？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

how cold or how long you're going to be in there.

有多冷或者你要在那里呆多久。

And we'll talk about this a little bit about time, but I don't know.

我们会稍微讨论一下时间，但我不知道。

If you don't like the cold, you don't have to do it, but I do think most people can really benefit from it.

如果您不喜欢寒冷，则不必这样做，但我确实认为大多数人确实可以从中受益。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I'm saying I'll develop a protocol for 80.

我是说我会为 80 人制定一个协议。

The sauna will be at 97.

桑拿时间为97。

Easy transition back and forth.

轻松来回转换。

Who knows?

谁知道？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

All right.

好吧。

Taking it from the guy who jumps off of mountains in a squirrel suit.

这是从穿着松鼠服从山上跳下来的人那里得到的。

Let's talk about the squirrel suit.

我们来谈谈松鼠套装。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Sure.

当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And why in the world anyone who values their life, seriously, though-

为什么世界上任何认真珍视生命的人——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah, no, I get it

是的，不，我明白了

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

would do this.

会这样做。

And is there an off-ramp?

还有出口匝道吗？

Is there a parachute?

有降落伞吗？

And when you learn how to do this-

当你学会如何做到这一点时——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yep

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

how hard is it to learn, and what's the juice there?

学习有多难，有什么好处？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Okay.

好的。

A lot of questions there.

那里有很多问题。

Okay.

好的。

It's funny.

很有趣。

A lot of people call them squirrel suits.

很多人称它们为松鼠套装。

It's just a wing suit.

这只是一套翼装而已。

Squirrel is actually a manufacturer of one of the suits.

松鼠实际上是其中一款套装的制造商。

Fantastic branding.

很棒的品牌。

They happen to be the suit that I jump.

它们恰好是我跳的套装。

So essentially, it is a human body turning into a nylon wing.

所以本质上来说，它是一个人体变成了尼龙翅膀。

That's really all it is.

这真的就是全部了。

It's nylon.

是尼龙的。

It's some neoprene around the wrist, so you have a little bit of flexibility in the wrist.

手腕周围有一些氯丁橡胶，因此手腕有一点灵活性。

They're really actually advancing the leading-edge technology with the fabrics.

他们实际上正在推进面料的前沿技术。

It's crazy to look, I don't know the name of the program, but you're looking at all of these images from the side of wind angles and how the suits, they're looking to reduce drag.

看起来很疯狂，我不知道该程序的名称，但你会从风角度的一侧看到所有这些图像，以及西装如何减少阻力。

And it's more than just the rigidity of your body.

这不仅仅是身体的僵硬。

So at least the suits that I jumped are modern suits.

所以至少我跳的西装是现代西装。

They are ram-air inflated.

它们是冲压空气充气的。

So there is an outer layer on both sides, an upper layer, let's say for your back, and an under layer for your belly.

因此，两侧都有外层，上层（比如说您的背部）和下层（比如说您的腹部）。

In between, it's much like a canopy.

在两者之间，它很像一个天篷。

There's ribbed fabric with portholes.

有带有舷窗的罗纹织物。

And on the front and back of the wing, as you give it airspeed, either exiting an airplane that's already in flight, most skydiving airplanes are probably doing 80 to 120 miles an hour, or in the BASE jumping world, and this is where it can get spicy, is you have no airflow for about the first four seconds because-

在机翼的前部和后部，当你给它空速时，要么离开已经在飞行的飞机，大多数跳伞飞机可能每小时 80 到 120 英里，要么在定点跳伞世界中，这就是它可能变得棘手的地方，你在前四秒内没有气流，因为 -

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

BASE jumping, for those that don't know, is-

对于那些不知道的人来说，定点跳伞是——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Call it a fixed object.

称其为固定物体。

Building, antenna, span, or Earth is what the acronym stands for.

这些缩写词分别代表建筑物、天线、跨度或地球。

You're probably not going to do it off of buildings because you need time to get the suit actually flying.

你可能不会在建筑物外进行，因为你需要时间让宇航服真正飞行。

But it's a different experience, because if you jump out of an airplane, those ram air inlets fill up.

但这是一种不同的体验，因为如果你从飞机上跳下来，那些冲压空气入口就会填满。

Your suit, it's pressurized.

你的套装，已经加压了。

You can feel it, and you can already fly your suit.

你能感觉到它，并且你已经可以驾驶你的宇航服了。

You can flip over.

你可以翻过来。

Actually, I've gotten above aircraft many times.

事实上，我已经多次飞越飞机了。

You can basically translate that horizontal lift into power and go above them.

你基本上可以将水平升力转化为力量并超越它们。

Shortly, you're going to come back down.

过不了多久，你就会回来。

Otherwise, you'll stall the suit, and it starts waffling down.

否则，你就会让这套衣服停滞不前，它就会开始掉下来。

But in the BASE jumping world, it's a zero airspeed exit.

但在定点跳伞世界中，它是零空速出口。

So for the first about zero to four seconds, you don't have any air filling up the ram air inlets.

因此，在最初的大约零到四秒内，冲压空气入口没有任何空气。

So if you don't go off in the right body position, or if you go head low and are scorpioning, or head high and then you pitch through that and there is terrain below you, that's how a lot of people die.

因此，如果你没有以正确的身体姿势出发，或者如果你头低而呈蝎子状，或者头高然后你穿过它而你下方有地形，这就是很多人的死亡原因。

But the suit itself is basically that.

但套装本身基本上就是这样。

There's wings.

有翅膀。

There's a large wing between your leg, a wing underneath your arm on both the left and right-hand side, and they come in a variety of sizes.

您的腿之间有一个大翼，左右两侧的手臂下方都有一个翼，它们有多种尺寸。

So learning it is simple, not easy.

所以学习它很简单，但并不容易。

First off, skydive before you throw a wingsuit on in the skydiving world.

首先，在穿上翼装进入跳伞世界之前先跳伞。

I think I had 3,000 jumps before I put a wingsuit on the first time.

我想在第一次穿上翼装之前我已经跳了 3000 次。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is it important that people do different types of skydiving?

人们进行不同类型的跳伞重要吗？

By the way, I'm not versed in skydiving.

顺便说一句，我不擅长跳伞。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So what's the most basic type of...

那么最基本的类型是什么...

I assume a tandem jump, then you start doing individual jumps.

我假设是双人跳，然后你开始进行个人跳。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

The first time I did a skydive, I had an instructor holding onto me from both sides until my parachute deployed.

我第一次跳伞时，教练从两侧抓着我，直到我的降落伞展开。

It's a very structured program that most modern drop zones will have.

这是一个非常结构化的计划，大多数现代降落区都会有。

A lot of people will do a tandem first, which I recommend.

很多人会先做串联，我推荐这样做。

If you've never done it and you're uncertain about whether or not you would like it, I think there's two really good options.

如果您从未做过并且不确定自己是否喜欢它，我认为有两个非常好的选择。

One is a tandem, but if even that idea makes you a little bit uncertain, there's now enough wind tunnels around, commercial wind tunnels.

一个是串联，但即使这个想法让你有点不确定，现在周围有足够的风洞，商业风洞。

There's Oceanside Wind Tunnel.

还有海边风洞。

There's one in LA.

洛杉矶有一个。

There's one in San Diego.

圣地亚哥有一个。

They're all over the place.

他们到处都是。

I was just in Virginia Beach.

我刚刚在弗吉尼亚海滩。

There's one in Virginia Beach.

弗吉尼亚海滩有一个。

So it simulates the sensation of falling through the air in an environment where you don't have to wear a parachute.

所以它模拟了在不需要佩戴降落伞的环境下从空中坠落的感觉。

You don't have to ride an airplane.

你不必乘坐飞机。

You literally hop in there.

你真的跳进去了。

They can hold onto you, and it feels like skydiving.

他们可以抓住你，感觉就像跳伞一样。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Sounds like fun.

听起来很有趣。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

It's leveled up what people can do in the air because it's this contained environment where you can see if you're moving a millimeter.

它提高了人们在空中的能力，因为在这种封闭的环境中，你可以看到自己是否移动了一毫米。

The number of jumps I have had where you jump out into the air, where your only reference is another person that's moving around, and you were sliding all over the place.

我有过几次跳跃，你跳到空中，你唯一的参考是另一个正在移动的人，而你却在到处滑行。

Like, "Fuck you, you were sliding all over the place." And neither of you know because your reference is the Earth just flying around.

就像，“操你，你滑得到处都是。”你们都不知道，因为你们的参照物是正在飞来飞去的地球。

And then you get into the wind tunnel, and you're both up against the glass, you're like, "Oh, we both suck." So makes it a little bit more difficult.

然后你进入风洞，你们俩都靠在玻璃上，你会说，“哦，我们都很糟糕。”所以让它变得有点困难。

The most basic type of skydiving would be just exiting the plane in flight, falling with your belly oriented towards the ground, and deploying your parachute on time.

最基本的跳伞类型是在飞行中离开飞机，以腹部朝向地面的方式坠落，并及时展开降落伞。

Skydiving is two parachutes, main parachute and reserve.

跳伞有两个降落伞，主降落伞和备用降落伞。

Reserve is packed by an FAA rigger.

储备品由美国联邦航空管理局 (FAA) 装配工包装。

And I believe for one period of time, it was 90 days in between pack jobs.

我相信有一段时间，打包工作之间有 90 天的间隔。

I think it's six months in between pack jobs now.

我认为现在打包工作之间有六个月的间隔。

But full, they open it up, the reserve.

但满了，他们打开了它，储备。

They open the parachute up.

他们打开降落伞。

They inspect it.

他们检查它。

They make sure that the canopy is good, the lines are good, the automatic activation devices, which are computers sensing fall rate, barometric pressure with a firing criteria, which will fire your reserve for you if you do nothing, which has hundreds of documented saves, by the way.

他们确保座舱盖良好，线路良好，自动激活装置，这些装置是计算机感应坠落率、气压和射击标准，如果你什么都不做，它会为你发射你的储备，顺便说一句，它有数百个记录保存。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Hm.

嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

For an unconscious jump or whatever it may be, or as crazy as it is to say, somebody falling through the air, forgetting to look at their altimeter because they're having so much fun.

对于无意识的跳跃或任何可能的情况，或者像说的那样疯狂，有人从空中坠落，忘记看高度表，因为他们玩得很开心。

It happens.

它发生了。

So Cypresses or Vigils or just AADs, automatic activation devices, have saved hundreds of lives.

因此，Cypresses 或 Vigils 或 AAD（自动激活装置）已经挽救了数百人的生命。

So that reserve parachute is packed by a rigger.

所以备用降落伞是由装配工打包的。

Most civilian jumpers will pack their own main parachute.

大多数平民跳伞者都会携带自己的主降落伞。

It takes five minutes for an experienced jumper, maybe 20 minutes for somebody who is learning.

对于经验丰富的跳伞运动员来说，需要 5 分钟，而对于正在学习的人来说，可能需要 20 分钟。

And you can go do, I think the most jumps I've ever done in a day was probably 30.

你可以去做，我想我一天跳的次数最多的可能是 30 次。

That was at an event called a Boogie, where it's just as fast as you can go, and you're just jumping, jumping, jumping.

那是在一个名为“Boogie”的活动中，在那里你可以跑得尽可能快，而且你只是跳、跳、跳。

On an average day for me when I lived in San Diego, it would be six to eight jumps.

当我住在圣地亚哥时，我平均每天会跳六到八次。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。

AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens.

AG1 是一种维生素矿物质益生菌饮料，还包含益生元和适应原。

I discovered AG1 way back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since.

我早在 2012 年就发现了 AG1，那时我还没有播客，从那时起我就每天都在服用它。

The reason I started taking AG1, and the reason I still take it every day, is because AG1 is, to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market.

我开始服用 AG1 的原因，以及我仍然每天服用的原因，是因为据我所知，AG1 是市场上质量最高、最全面的基础营养补充剂。

AG1 is designed to support things like gut health, immune health, and overall energy, and it does so by helping to fill any gaps that you might have in your daily nutrition.

AG1 旨在支持肠道健康、免疫健康和整体能量等方面，它通过帮助填补您日常营养中可能存在的任何缺口来实现这一目标。

I get asked pretty much all the time, "If I could only take one supplement, what should that supplement be?" And my answer is always AG1.

我经常被问到，“如果我只能服用一种补充剂，那么该补充剂应该是什么？”我的答案始终是AG1。

It has just been so helpful for supporting all aspects of physical health, mental health, and performance.

它对于支持身体健康、心理健康和表现的各个方面都非常有帮助。

If you would like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a special offer.

如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 以获得特别优惠。

For a limited time, AG1 is giving away a free bottle of their new omega-3 coenzyme Q10 product.

AG1 限时免费赠送一瓶新的 omega-3 辅酶 Q10 产品。

Omega-3 and coenzyme Q10 are known to support cardiovascular health, cellular health, and energy generally, brain health, and much more.

众所周知，Omega-3 和辅酶 Q10 可支持心血管健康、细胞健康、能量、大脑健康等。

I personally take them both every day.

我个人每天都会服用它们。

Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a free bottle of the new omega-3 coenzyme Q10 with your first AG1 subscription.

同样，请访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman，首次订阅 AG1 即可免费获得一瓶新型 omega-3 辅酶 Q10。

For somebody's first non-tandem jump, how high is the plane off the ground?

对于某人的第一次非双人跳伞，飞机离地有多高？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

13,000 is about average, 13 AGL.

13,000 大约是平均水平，13 AGL。

So if you're learning in Colorado or another Rocky Mountain state, you might only get 12 AGL because you might be up to 16 to 18,000 feet.

因此，如果您在科罗拉多州或其他落基山脉州学习，您可能只会获得 12 AGL，因为您的海拔可能高达 16 到 18,000 英尺。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

But there's flying with your belly oriented to the Earth.

但飞行时腹部面向地球。

There's people who like to do it vertically, either feet down or head down, people who fly on their back.

有些人喜欢垂直飞行，要么脚朝下，要么头朝下，有些人喜欢仰面飞行。

There are formation jumps where they'll get a bunch of people together.

他们会进行编队跳跃，将一群人聚集在一起。

I think the world record is hundreds of people linked up in free fall.

我认为世界纪录是数百人连在一起做自由落体运动。

You can watch it from the ground.

你可以从地面上观看它。

It's crazy to see.

看到这真是太疯狂了。

They'll have eight aircraft, and you just see these just people bombing out of the back.

他们有八架飞机，你只能看到这些人从后面轰炸。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

And they'll make these snowflake configurations, and people are just sitting there on the ground, watching with either naked eye or with binoculars.

他们将制作这些雪花形状，人们只是坐在地上，用肉眼或双筒望远镜观看。

And then at break-off altitude, everybody's tracking away, and then all these canopies open up, and then on landing, it gets a little bit wild.

然后在起飞高度，每个人都在远离，然后所有这些檐篷打开，然后在着陆时，它变得有点狂野。

So it can get as much as you want, and then wingsuiting is just a part of that.

所以你想要多少就可以得到多少，而翼装只是其中的一部分。

But you can jump a smaller wingsuit.

但你可以跳较小的翼装。

So the suits I ended up jumping had a lot of fabric because I wanted to have a nice glide ratio, and I wanted to be able to extend the amount of time in the air.

所以我最终跳的衣服有很多布料，因为我想要有一个很好的滑翔比，并且我希望能够延长在空中的时间。

You can get suits with a smaller wing, which give you more maneuverability, and you learn in those, and then get a little bit bigger, a little bit bigger and bigger, bigger.

你可以购买机翼较小的套装，这会给你更多的机动性，你可以在其中学习，然后变得更大一点，更大一点，更大，更大。

So as safely as possible, graduating your way towards those larger suits that can have more consequence.

因此，尽可能安全地，逐渐转向那些可以产生更多后果的更大的套装。

You can end up on your back in the wingsuits in flat spins, and I've seen people...

你最终可能会穿着翼装平躺地旋转，我见过有人……

You can get out of it.

你可以摆脱它。

You need to get out of it quickly, but we're talking fully blown red eyes when they get to the ground from centrifugal force, and pretty quick, too.

你需要快速摆脱它，但我们说的是当它们通过离心力到达地面时，眼睛会完全被吹红，而且速度也很快。

That's the skydiving world, two parachutes.

这就是跳伞世界，两个降落伞。

The base jumping world is you're now down to one parachute that is packed very similar to a reserve, but it's packed now by the jumper who is doing the base jumping.

定点跳伞的世界是你现在只剩下一个降落伞，它的包装与备用伞非常相似，但它现在是由进行定点跳伞的跳伞者包装的。

And the reason for that is you are generally very close to the ground at an altitude where a reserve isn't going to save you, because it does take a couple hundred feet for a reserve to open up.

原因是你通常离地面非常近，海拔高度上保护区也救不了你，因为保护区确实需要几百英尺才能打开。

And in the US, there's one place to legally do it 24/7, 365.

在美国，有一个地方可以合法地提供 24/7、365 的服务。

It's the Perrine Bridge up in Twin Falls, which is where I learned.

那是双子瀑布的佩林桥，我就是在那里了解到的。

The legality aspect is if people want to go that way, do your research because there's some cities that had some problems with it, so they made it a felony, which will change your life if you want to test gravity off of a building.

合法性方面是，如果人们想这样做，请进行研究，因为有些城市存在一些问题，因此他们将其定为重罪，如果您想测试建筑物的重力，这将改变您的生活。

I don't know if the capital F is necessarily worth it.

我不知道大写的F是否一定值得。

Vegas and New York are two good examples of that.

维加斯和纽约就是两个很好的例子。

Most people start off at that bridge.

大多数人都是从那座桥开始的。

And then an antenna is, of course, exactly that, radio antennas.

当然，天线就是无线电天线。

And there are other countries in the world where that is legal to do, and a lot of times people will travel.

世界上还有其他国家这样做是合法的，很多时候人们会旅行。

Buildings, you can get permission, depending.

建筑物，您可以获得许可，具体取决于。

I know one of your guys worked with Red Bull, not for Red Bull, he clarified for us.

我知道你们中的一个人曾与红牛合作，而不是为红牛工作，他向我们澄清道。

Shockingly enough, if you write a large check, things that were once illegal can become legal for short periods of time.

令人震惊的是，如果你写一张大额支票，曾经非法的事情可以在短时间内变得合法。

So they will get permission to go off of buildings.

因此他们将获得离开建筑物的许可。

Or you can go to Dubai, where for I think it was a year, they had this huge, it was fully just set up for legal base jumping off one of the top floors of one of those skyscrapers, which is unbelievable.

或者你可以去迪拜，我想那儿已经有一年了，他们有这么大，完全是为了从其中一座摩天大楼的顶层跳下的合法基地而建立的，这是令人难以置信的。

And then Earth, which is obviously that, and cliffs.

然后是地球，显然就是这样，还有悬崖。

My first base jump off of a-- Actually, it was from the bridge.

我的第一次跳垒实际上是从桥上跳下来的。

Actually, I have done an antenna, buildings, not many buildings, but my first jump off the Earth was Monte Brento in Italy, which you jump, open your canopy, land, walk across the street, and there's an Italian espresso just waiting for you.

事实上，我做过天线、建筑物，但我第一次从地球上跳下来是意大利的布伦托山，你跳下去，打开你的天篷，着陆，穿过街道，然后就有一杯意大利浓缩咖啡在等着你。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Perfect.

完美。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

It's basically heaven.

基本上就是天堂。

And then we stayed there for two and a half weeks and went into Lauterbrunnen in Switzerland.

然后我们在那里呆了两个半星期，然后去了瑞士的劳特布龙嫩。

But I had been skydiving and flying a wingsuit.

但我一直在跳伞和穿着翼装飞行。

Then I had to learn how to base jump, and then at some point you have to combine those two.

然后我必须学习如何定点跳伞，然后在某些时候你必须将这两者结合起来。

So one day you have to go from never having pushed off of a cliff in a wingsuit and having time flying it in the air to kind of bridging that gap where now you have this first four seconds that you have to deal with where the suit feels really sloppy.

所以有一天，你必须从从未穿着翼装冲下悬崖，有时间在空中飞翔，到弥补这一差距，现在你必须在前四秒处理翼装感觉非常草率的情况。

It doesn't feel rigid, and you can't really do anything until it powers up and you can pull away.

它不会让人感觉僵硬，而且在它启动并且您可以拉开之前，您实际上无法做任何事情。

So that's kind of the activities.

这就是活动的类型。

The why, I can't answer for anybody other than myself.

至于为什么，除了我自己，我无法回答任何人。

But the why for me actually had nothing to do with the activity itself.

但对我来说，原因实际上与活动本身无关。

And it is dangerous.

这很危险。

There are some people who try to romanticize the danger of that, and if people want to participate in things because they're dangerous and that's how they want to define themself, I leave that to you.

有些人试图将这种危险浪漫化，如果人们因为危险而想要参与某些事情，并且这就是他们想要定义自己的方式，那么我把它留给你。

Just be aware of the potential consequences you might get yourself into.

请注意您可能会给自己带来的潜在后果。

For me, I got into that about three years after I got out of the Navy.

对我来说，我从海军退役大约三年后就进入了这个领域。

And I didn't realize what it was I enjoyed so much, but it was the mental reset associated with that.

我并没有意识到我如此享受的是什么，但这是与此相关的精神重置。

At about one minute out on a helicopter, for me, and I can only speak for me, talking about time, your entire circle of concern goes away, completely gone.

在直升机上大约一分钟，对我来说，我只能为我自己说话，谈论时间，你的整个关注圈消失了，完全消失了。

And there are very few times in my life where I've ever been able to get into that headspace.

在我的一生中，很少有机会能够进入这样的境界。

But it might be the most powerful headspace I've ever been able to arrive into, and my ability to find my way there lasted for months afterwards.

但这可能是我能够到达的最强大的顶空，而且我找到通往那里的能力的能力持续了几个月。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Because overseas, yeah, they ask you to do some bizarre stuff.

因为在海外，是的，他们要求你做一些奇怪的事情。

But you also likely at some point in your career will have a family, maybe your first house, whatever it is, and like, "Fuck, the washing machine just broke." And you're dealing with real-life stuff.

但你也可能在职业生涯的某个时刻拥有一个家庭，也许是你的第一栋房子，无论它是什么，然后就像，“操，洗衣机刚刚坏了。”而且你正在处理现实生活中的事情。

"Did I write enough checks before I left?" Before the digital age.

“我离开前写的支票够了吗？”数字时代之前。

"Did I write enough checks before I left to make sure that the rent was already paid?" These are the things you're thinking about, just normal, everyday life, an argument with your spouse, your kids, the holidays you may have missed, all that stuff.

“我在离开前是否写了足够的支票以确保房租已经支付？”这些是你正在考虑的事情，正常的日常生活，与你的配偶、你的孩子的争吵，你可能错过的假期，所有这些事情。

You get on a helicopter, and you start heading towards an objective, and all that stuff starts to go away.

你登上直升机，开始朝着一个目标前进，然后所有这些东西就开始消失。

And for me, about the one minute and in until it lands or you're stepping off, it becomes this focus on The next three seconds of your life is the only thing I was capable of thinking about and that is such a beautiful place.

对我来说，大约一分钟，直到它着陆或你走下，它变成了这种专注于你生命中接下来的三秒钟是我唯一能够思考的事情，那是一个如此美丽的地方。

God, you want to talk about the ability to perform and not feel like you're necessarily, you're not trying to force it, you're just...

天哪，你想要谈论的是执行能力，而不是觉得你是必然的，你不是试图强迫它，你只是......

There's books been written about the flow state-

有一些关于心流状态的书——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

...

for lack of a better term.

因为缺乏更好的术语。

Incredibly impactful and I didn't realize how much I needed that, and I didn't realize how much that job was providing for me until it was gone.

影响力令人难以置信，我没有意识到我有多么需要它，直到它消失我才意识到那份工作为我提供了多少。

And then the static of everyday life just is overwhelming.

然后日常生活的静电就变得势不可挡。

Skydiving, I guess you could get that, or maybe I got that when I first started, but after a few thousand jumps, about everything that's going to go wrong, you're going to have your first cutaway.

跳伞，我想你可以明白这一点，或者也许我刚开始的时候就明白了，但是经过几千次跳跃之后，关于所有可能出错的事情，你将会得到你的第一个切面。

You're going to have a mo- You know what I mean?

你将会有一个莫-你知道我的意思吗？

You're going to deal with your gear, your reserve is going to open, and so that really narrowed focus, it actually starts opening back up.

你将处理你的装备，你的储备将打开，所以真正缩小的焦点，它实际上开始重新开放。

The BASE jumping world, I remember the first time, the guy who taught me, he's like, "All right.

定点跳伞的世界，我记得第一次，教我的那个人，他就像，“好吧。

Just climb over the edge of the rail here," and you're looking at 486 feet.

只要爬过这里的栏杆边缘，”您就会看到 486 英尺的高度。

You test the wind by spitting and if it drifts past a certain point, you're good to go.

你可以通过吐口水来测试风向，如果风向超过了某个点，你就可以出发了。

So you can track your spit to where you are going to deck if you don't pull your parachute.

因此，如果您不拉降落伞，您可以跟踪您的口水到您要去的甲板上。

Now on the first one, he's holding onto the pilot chute, so it rips it off for you, so you don't have to worry about it.

现在在第一个上，他抓住了飞行员降落伞，所以它会为你把它撕下来，所以你不必担心它。

But you want to talk about that, shh, right back-

但你想谈谈这个，嘘，就回来-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

毫米

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

...

into that space.

进入那个空间。

Holy cow.

圣牛。

That's what BASE jumping was for me.

这就是定点跳伞对我来说的意义。

I had some of the deepest conversations with my friends on the four-hour hikes that would lead to a 90-second jump, and two weeks of those 90-second jumps, I could get myself into such a more dialed head space for six months and be better at business, a more patient father, a more patient husband.

在四个小时的徒步旅行中，我和朋友们进行了一些最深入的交谈，最后进行了 90 秒的跳跃，两周的 90 秒的跳跃，我可以让自己在六个月的时间里进入这样一个更充分的头脑空间，并且在生意上做得更好，成为一个更有耐心的父亲，一个更有耐心的丈夫。

That to me is why.

对我来说这就是原因。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

And at some point, probably due to the death of my friends, and I had found other activities that had started to provide that, it crossed the metric for me where the risk was no longer worth the reward.

在某些时候，可能是由于我朋友的去世，而且我发现其他活动开始提供这种服务，它超出了我的标准，风险不再值得回报。

I have been skydiving since 1999.

我从 1999 年开始就开始跳伞。

I could take five years off and go jump out of an airplane and I'd be fine, but I can't do that in the BASE jumping world.

我可以休息五年，然后从飞机上跳下来，我会没事的，但在定点跳伞的世界里我做不到。

The currency and competency piece is so important.

货币和能力非常重要。

And then when I moved to Montana, my access to the drop zones and the ability to maintain currency and competency in that wingsuit really decreased, so it got to a place where it wasn't worth the risk.

然后当我搬到蒙大拿州时，我进入空降区的机会以及保持货币和翼装能力的能力确实下降了，所以它到了一个不值得冒险的地方。

Skydiving's still a bunch of fun, but I found other activities that I could kind of lose myself in.

跳伞仍然很有趣，但我发现了其他一些可以让我迷失自我的活动。

Maybe not to the same, I don't think to the same degree.

也许不一样，我认为不一样的程度。

It's hard to describe zipping up in that suit with a maximal heart rate to the point where you're looking over at your buddy and he's like, "Hey, are you hearing my heart too?

很难描述穿着那套衣服拉上拉链，心率达到最高程度，以至于你看着你的朋友，他就像是，“嘿，你也听到我的心跳了吗？

Because it's pretty loud." You know what I mean?

因为声音实在是太大了。”你知道我的意思？

Like that thrush in your ears.

就像你耳朵里的画眉鸟一样。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's informative- ...

这信息很丰富——...

to hear that your heart was maxed out because I wondered if adrenaline was low, if it was high.

听说你的心脏已经达到极限，因为我想知道肾上腺素是低还是高。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Terrified.

吓坏了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Something had happened systematically over the years in the teams where your adrenaline was set too low, you need to crank it above a certain threshold.

多年来，在团队中系统地发生了一些事情，你的肾上腺素设置得太低，你需要将其提高到某个阈值以上。

Sounds like you were right where any rational person would be, which was terrifying.

听起来你是对的，任何有理性的人都会这么做，这太可怕了。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Because at some point, you grab your little tail wing, and you make a little nice little teepee with it, and you get your toes to the edge, and you check all your stuff, and then you are just looking out into the abyss.

因为在某些时候，你抓住你的小尾翼，用它做一个漂亮的小圆锥形帐篷，然后你把脚趾伸到边缘，检查你所有的东西，然后你就只能望向深渊了。

And you have to make yourself rock forward past a point of no return that if you change your mind, oopsies, that doesn't work anymore.

你必须让自己坚定地前进，越过一个无法回头的点，如果你改变主意，哎呀，那就不再起作用了。

And then you need to have maximal human performance for about the next four seconds of your life-

然后你需要在生命中接下来的四秒内保持最佳的人类表现——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

...

if you want your life to continue.

如果你想让你的生活继续下去。

So if you're not scared in that environment, I would recommend you stop that activity immediately because you're not paying attention.

因此，如果您在那种环境下不感到害怕，我建议您立即停止该活动，因为您没有集中注意力。

It was terrifying, and that's probably why I liked it so much.

这太可怕了，这可能就是我如此喜欢它的原因。

It was awesome.

太棒了。

Don't get me wrong.

别误会我的意思。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Ripping down a mountain in Switzerland, six feet off the ground, almost playing tag with your shadow, and then turning around and carving through trees, amazing.

从瑞士的一座山上冲下来，离地六英尺，几乎是在和你的影子玩捉迷藏，然后转身穿过树林，太神奇了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So you're actually pretty low to the ground, just going very, very fast-

所以你实际上离地面相当低，只是走得非常非常快-

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

If you want to be

如果你想成为

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

over steep ground.

在陡峭的地面上。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

If you want to be.

如果你想成为的话。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Not everybody chooses to fly that way.

并不是每个人都选择那样飞行。

And you can have, on the exact same jump, I can think of one very specifically.

你可以在完全相同的跳跃中，我可以非常具体地想到一个。

It's at the far end of the valley in Switzerland.

它位于瑞士山谷的尽头。

It's a four-hour hike up, and it's, you're getting water in your canteen or Nalgene out of these glacially, just spouting out of the rocks, and there's sheep and stuff, and it's like a postcard.

这是一个四个小时的徒步旅行，你可以在你的水壶或纳尔金河中取水，从岩石中喷出，还有羊和其他东西，就像一张明信片。

You walk for four hours.

你步行四个小时。

You can have a really aggressive jump on that and fly for 60 seconds, or you could flatten your suit out and just glide and fly for two and a half minutes.

你可以在上面进行一次非常激进的跳跃并飞行 60 秒，或者你可以将你的宇航服摊平，然后滑翔并飞行两分半钟。

Same jump, different choices.

同样的跳跃，不同的选择。

Not that necessarily flying farther out, you still need to pack your parachute correctly and all those things, but your likelihood of impacting a tree at 100 miles an hour with your face is a lot better than flying six feet off the ground around corners that hopefully you've done some test jumps on and gotten lower and lower and lower and lower instead of just flash pointing that thing and hoping for the best as you come around the corner.

不一定要飞得更远，你仍然需要正确地打包你的降落伞和所有这些东西，但是你的脸以每小时 100 英里的速度撞击一棵树的可能性比在拐角处离地六英尺飞行要好得多，希望你已经做了一些测试跳跃并越来越低，而不是只是闪现指向那个东西，并在拐角处希望最好的结果。

Which people do.

哪些人会这样做。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

How fast are you moving once you're above the ground?

当你离开地面后，你的移动速度有多快？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

If you really bend those suits over, I'd say you could get them to about 120.

如果你真的把这些套装弯下来，我想说你可以把它们弄到120左右。

Face first.

先打脸。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You're a human missile.

你是一枚人类导弹。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

It's awesome.

太棒了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Those of us, like myself, listening to this can only wonder, right?

我们这些人，就像我自己一样，听到这个只能想知道，对吧？

Yeah.

是的。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

You can feel it in the suit.

你可以在套装中感受到这一点。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

So again, the ram air inlets, when you're a little bit flatter flying slow, it feels like you're on an air mattress is really what flying feels like.

再说一遍，冲压空气入口，当你缓慢飞行时，感觉就像在气垫上一样，这才是真正的飞行感觉。

As you bend the suit over and you're just violently diving at the ground, you can feel the suit.

当你将宇航服弯曲并且猛烈地俯冲到地面时，你可以感觉到宇航服。

It's almost like it's just your power meter is just all the way up.

这几乎就像你的功率计一直调到最高一样。

And so if you get in trouble, you can flatten that out, and that's your safety.

因此，如果您遇到麻烦，您可以将其解决，这就是您的安全。

You can disconnect-

您可以断开连接-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

毫米

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

...

from the terrain.

从地形来看。

Which is how, unfortunately, some people die.

不幸的是，有些人就是这样死亡的。

They're not paying attention to that sensation, and they're slowly getting flatter and flatter and flatter and flatter.

他们没有注意到这种感觉，他们慢慢地变得越来越平淡、越来越平淡。

Then they encounter flat terrain, and they don't have enough performance in the suit to clear it, and they impact.

然后他们遇到平坦的地形，而他们的宇航服没有足够的性能来清除它，他们就会产生冲击。

But that, when you're pitched over like that, and that thing is just, and you It feels like you are licking the largest nine-volt battery you've ever licked in your life.

但是，当你像那样被翻倒时，那件事就是，你感觉就像你正在舔你一生中舔过的最大的九伏电池。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Would your parents say that this is a window into the young Andy Stumpf, or is this a departure or an evolution, devolution, evolution?

你的父母会说这是了解年轻的安迪·斯坦普夫的一扇窗户，还是一次离开或一种进化、权力下放、进化？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I don't know if they would've called that one.

我不知道他们是否会这么称呼它。

I don't know if I would've called that activity, if I would've said this one was going to be interesting to me.

我不知道我是否会称之为这项活动，如果我会说这个活动对我来说会很有趣。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Let me ask you this.

让我问你这个。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

When you were a kid, not recommending anyone do this, but when you were a kid and your guy friends, someone found one of the larger firecrackers available, were you the kid that would hold it after it was lit until the last second and then throw it?

当你还是个孩子的时候，不建议任何人这样做，但是当你还是个孩子的时候，你和你的男朋友，有人发现了一个更大的鞭炮，你是那个在点燃后拿着它直到最后一秒然后扔掉的孩子吗？

Because I knew that kid, but it wasn't me.

因为我认识那个孩子，但那不是我。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Does he still have both hands?

他还有双手吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yes.

是的。

He was a great skateboarder, by the way.

顺便说一句，他是一位出色的滑板运动员。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Became a pro skateboarder right out of high school.

高中一毕业就成为职业滑板运动员。

Moved on to other things eventually.

最终转向其他事情。

I think those things were correlated, right?

我认为这些事情是相关的，对吗？

I mean, he's doing big railings.

我的意思是，他正在做大栏杆。

He had a very good relationship with confronting fear.

他与面对恐惧有着非常好的关系。

There was another kid in our crew who would've been around the corner the moment the thing came out.

我们团队中还有一个孩子，事情发生的那一刻他就会在拐角处。

Okay, I was neither of those kids.

好吧，我不是那些孩子。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right?

对吗？

And then there's a distribution in the middle.

然后中间有一个分布。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Where were you?

你在哪里？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

My answer's not going to make sense to you because holding it that long sounds dangerous.

我的回答对你来说没有意义，因为长时间持有它听起来很危险。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It is dangerous.

这是危险的。

But wingsuit-

但翼装-

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I know, that's what I'm saying.

我知道，我就是这么说的。

It's not going to make sense.

这没有意义。

That sounds dangerous.

这听起来很危险。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Uh-huh.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

But just for the sake of danger, which somebody could 100% say-

但只是为了危险，有人可以100%说——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yep

是的

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

...

about BASE jumping as well.

还有定点跳伞。

But I don't know if holding on to, say, an M80 and wondering how long you can, provides for you that mental...

但我不知道坚持持有 M80 并想知道自己能坚持多久是否能为您提供这种精神……

I mean, I'm talking about your canopy opens, you land, you're laying in a fucking meadow in Switzerland on your back.

我的意思是，我说的是你的天篷打开，你着陆，你仰面躺在瑞士的一片草地上。

At a sense of ease and peace.

给人一种轻松、平和的感觉。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I don't think you're getting that from an M80.

我不认为 M80 能做到这一点。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No. The reason I ask is that there are a lot of questions that the scientist in me wants to know about-

不，我问的原因是作为科学家的我想知道很多问题——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

resetting of adrenaline set points and because people can become desensitized to-

重置肾上腺素设定值，因为人们可能会对-

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

For sure

当然

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

to high risk, high consequence type situations.

高风险、高后果类型的情况。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

You see that in the wingsuiting community.

你可以在翼装运动社区看到这一点。

I would say specifically the wingsuit BASE jumping community, the fatality rate is high.

我要特别说的是翼装定点跳伞社区，死亡率很高。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I would never tell anybody that it is a safe activity, but I think you can do it as safely as possible.

我永远不会告诉任何人这是一项安全的活动，但我认为你可以尽可能安全地进行。

There's still immense residual risk.

仍然存在巨大的残余风险。

So you have to ask yourself, what is it worth?

所以你必须问自己，它值多少钱？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

If we were to plot out number of wingsuit jumps-

如果我们要计算出翼装跳跃的次数-

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

and plot time of fatality relative to first jump, right?

以及相对于第一次跳跃的死亡情节时间，对吧？

So, the question, the area under the curve.

所以，问题是曲线下的面积。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

To address what you just said, are you getting more deaths the longer people have been doing it?

针对您刚才所说的问题，人们这样做的时间越长，死亡人数是否会增加？

Independent of the number of jumps, right?

与跳跃次数无关，对吧？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You can't really do that experiment.

你真的不能做那个实验。

It's not a perfect experiment.

这不是一个完美的实验。

The question is, are people getting more dangerous to themselves because they're pushing further and further into the abyss, getting closer to the edge, taking risks?

问题是，人们是否因为越来越深入深渊、越来越接近边缘、承担风险而对自己变得越来越危险？

Or is the novice more dangerous because they're a novice?

还是因为他们是新手所以新手更危险？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I think the Dunning-Kruger effect is always-

我认为邓宁-克鲁格效应总是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

...

the most dangerous aspect of it.

其中最危险的方面。

I think you would probably track, you certainly see people, especially in the content age, I've seen people reach out, not to me, but to forums, "Hey, I just want to get into wingsuit BASE jumping as fast as possible." And everybody on there is like, "Whoa.

我想你可能会追踪，你当然会看到人们，特别是在内容时代，我看到人们不是向我伸出援手，而是向论坛伸出援手，“嘿，我只是想尽快进入翼装定点跳伞。”那里的每个人都会说：“哇。

No." Most people recommend skydiving 200 jumps to even before you put a wingsuit on, which for most people who aren't doing it professionally, that's going to take a year or two.

不。”大多数人建议在穿上翼装之前跳伞 200 次，对于大多数非专业人士来说，这需要一两年的时间。

It's a slow progression.

这是一个缓慢的进展。

But that person reaching out saying that doesn't have time for that.

但那个人伸出手说没有时间。

So you're definitely going to get some people early on.

所以你肯定会尽早得到一些人。

The guys who are around the longest, the ones that I know who are the titans in the sport, it's not that I don't worry about them.

那些存在时间最长的人，我所知道的那些是这项运动中的巨人，我并不是不担心他们。

I worry less.

我的担心少了。

Honestly, I think it's that Dunning-Kruger curve where it's going to get people.

老实说，我认为邓宁-克鲁格曲线会吸引人们。

Especially when, let's say you do this amazing jump, right?

尤其是当你做了这个惊人的跳跃时，对吧？

You're ripping around a corner, and things you learn later on, like, hey, is it ascending or descending thermals right now?

你正在急转直下，稍后你会学到一些东西，比如，嘿，现在是上升还是下降的热气流？

Where's the wind coming from?

风从哪里来？

What type of day is this?

这是什么类型的一天？

I just jumped off, maybe it was a western-facing slope that I jumped towards, and I felt this amazing uprush of air, which is what you want to feel on an exit point.

我刚跳下去，也许是我跳向的一个朝西的斜坡，我感受到了这种惊人的空气上升，这就是你想要在出口处感受到的感觉。

Same thing as why airplanes take off into the wind.

这与飞机为什么要逆风起飞是一样的。

It helps with performance.

它有助于提高性能。

Well, as I am cruising down this mountain, am I thinking about the fact that three-quarters of it is covered in the shade, and maybe the thermals have swished along the way, and you're going to start feeling this pressure of almost a hand on your back.

好吧，当我沿着这座山巡航时，我是否在想这样一个事实：四分之三的山都被阴影覆盖了，也许一路上热气流呼啸而过，你会开始感受到几乎有一只手压在你背上的压力。

The first time you do that jump, and you survive, the dangerous thing to say is, "Nailed it." But did you nail it or did you get away with it?

当你第一次进行这样的跳跃并幸存下来时，危险的说法是“成功了”。但你成功了还是侥幸逃脱了？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

And that's what kills people, and that's that perfect Dunning-Kruger ascending line.

这就是杀人的原因，那就是完美的邓宁-克鲁格上升线。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Man, there's a quote that should be stamped into everyone's brain, young and old.

伙计，有一句话应该铭刻在每个人的大脑中，无论年轻还是年长。

Did you nail it or did you get away with it?

你是成功了还是侥幸逃脱了？

Because-

因为——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

There's a difference

有区别

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

this translates to a lot of areas of life that could spare people a lot of pain-

这意味着生活中的很多领域都可以减轻人们的痛苦——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

and some important insights.

以及一些重要的见解。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I got away with it more than I nailed it.

我逃脱的次数比我成功的次数还多。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Are you just being humble?

你只是谦虚吗？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

No.

不。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

No. You don't know what you don't know, until you see somebody else get bit by the same thing.

不，你不知道自己不知道什么，直到你看到其他人也被同样的事情咬伤。

Or you're on a jump with somebody, and only one of the three makes it out, or two of the three makes it out, and they all had the same idea and plan.

或者你和某人一起跳，三人中只有一个成功，或者三人中有两个成功，而他们都有相同的想法和计划。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And you describe some of that in your book.

您在书中描述了其中的一些内容。

I don't want to give that story away, but-

我不想泄露这个故事，但是——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

With Alex specifically.

特别是与亚历克斯。

I wasn't there for Alex's jump, but I had jumped with Alex enough for years.

我没有参加亚历克斯的跳跃，但我已经和亚历克斯一起跳了很多年了。

The one thing I wish I could do looking back with him is I was there with him for some close calls that he had.

我希望能和他一起回顾的一件事是，我和他一起经历了他的一些千钧一发的时刻。

A few were bad decisions that he, I would like to think, corrected for, because there is a phase in anything that you're doing that my instructor taught me how to fly helicopters.

我想他纠正了一些错误的决定，因为在你所做的任何事情中都有一个阶段是我的教练教我如何驾驶直升机的。

He's like, "Listen, once you know better, you can do better." But there's a phase where you don't know any better And so you think what you're doing is correct until either somebody points it out or you watch something so horrific happen, and you pay attention to an investigation afterwards or a debrief afterwards, and you can learn from that.

他说：“听着，一旦你了解得更多，你就能做得更好。”但有一个阶段，你不太了解，所以你认为你正在做的事情是正确的，直到有人指出，或者你看到如此可怕的事情发生，然后你关注事后调查或事后汇报，你可以从中学习。

But with Alex, I wish I could go back and just honestly slap him around a little bit because that's what it would take for him to pay attention.

但对于亚历克斯，我希望我能回去，诚实地扇他一巴掌，因为这样他才能集中注意力。

He would be appreciative of it, I think, if he understood what it would save.

我想，如果他明白这能拯救什么，他会很感激的。

But I would associate his death directly also with that Dunning-Kruger curve, and he had been doing it for years.

但我也会将他的死亡直接与邓宁-克鲁格曲线联系起来，而且他多年来一直这样做。

That doesn't mean you're out of that.

这并不意味着你就不再这样了。

It's that middle area where you think you have everything dialed.

您认为您已经在中间区域拨通了所有内容。

I think he had gotten away with it more than he had nailed it, and I had too.

我认为他侥幸逃脱的次数比他成功的次数还要多，我也是如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Would you let your kids squirrel suit?

你会让你的孩子穿松鼠服吗？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Do I have the right to stop them?

我有权利阻止他们吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yes.

是的。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

No. Knowing the risk, I would do everything I could to prepare them as much as possible.

不。知道风险后，我会尽一切努力让他们尽可能做好准备。

And by that, I mean scare the absolute dog shit out of them with the reality and confront them with the actual reality of it.

我的意思是用现实把他们吓得屁滚尿流，让他们面对现实。

Show them how long it would actually take, what they would need to do, what they would need to sacrifice in order to be able to get at that level.

向他们展示实际需要多长时间，他们需要做什么，他们需要牺牲什么才能达到那个水平。

But then if they wanted to make that choice, I don't feel like I have the right to stand in between them and that desire.

但如果他们想做出这样的选择，我觉得我没有权利站在他们和这种愿望之间。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Appreciate the honest answer.

欣赏诚实的回答。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm sure they do, too.

我确信他们也是如此。

I don't know if your wife appreciates that particular answer, but we'll ask her.

我不知道你的妻子是否喜欢这个特别的答案，但我们会问她。

I don't get involved in marital disputes.

我不参与婚姻纠纷。

That's a-

那是一个——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

We don't have any.

我们没有。

Our relationship is perfect.

我们的关系很完美。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Excellent answer.

很好的答案。

Wait, you've been married before.

等等，你以前结过婚。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Correct.

正确。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No, that was a joke.

不，那是个笑话。

Sorry.

对不起。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

That is correct.

这是正确的。

I tell you what, I learned some stuff.

我告诉你，我学到了一些东西。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I learned a lot.

我学到了很多。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I learned some stuff.

我学到了一些东西。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You talk very openly in the book, to the extent you don't reveal specifics-

你在书中谈得很公开，但没有透露具体细节——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yep

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

about the challenges of the ending of that first marriage.

关于结束第一次婚姻的挑战。

You-

你——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Hardest thing I've ever done in my life.

我一生中做过的最艰难的事情。

People think that being a SEAL is hard, and it is.

人们认为成为一名海豹突击队员很困难，事实确实如此。

But a lot of that is truncated with, hey, we're going to go overseas for this short period of time and time away, and it can be physiologically and psychologically challenging.

但其中很多内容都被缩短了，嘿，我们要去海外度过一段很短的时间，这在生理和心理上都可能具有挑战性。

But once you're in that community, I didn't encounter anything.

但一旦你进入那个社区，我就没有遇到任何事情。

The military never asked me to do anything that got me to a place where I was judging or asking myself what type of person I was, or if I was a good enough person to be able to continue going forward with anybody other than just myself.

军队从来没有要求我做任何让我去评判或问自己我是一个什么样的人，或者我是否是一个足够好的人，能够继续与除了我自己之外的任何人一起前进的事情。

Those questions I wasn't asking myself in the military.

这些问题我在军队时并没有问自己。

At the lowest points of a nearly two-year divorce process that was very contentious, and quite frankly, the reason I don't go into details is I have built a larger, or a platform, and my ex-wife doesn't have one, and that's the fairest way to be about it.

在近两年离婚过程的最低点，这是非常有争议的，坦率地说，我不透露细节的原因是我已经建立了一个更大的或一个平台，而我的前妻没有一个，这是最公平的方式。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I totally respect that.

我完全尊重这一点。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

If people want to go talk with her, trust me, I know the story you're going to get.

如果人们想和她交谈，相信我，我知道你会听到什么故事。

Enjoy it.

好好享受。

Believe what you want to believe.

相信你愿意相信的。

I always tell people if you hear bad stuff about me, please believe it.

我总是告诉人们，如果你听到关于我的坏话，请相信它。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's what you tell them?

这就是你告诉他们的？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Why not?

为什么不呢？

I am certainly not everybody's cup of tea.

我当然不是每个人都喜欢的。

There's no way to please everybody, ever.

永远没有办法让所有人都满意。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Amen to that.

阿门。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

So if somebody is out there who wants to run me through the mud, cool.

所以，如果有人想让我陷入困境，那很好。

Just believe every word that you are told if you want to.

只要你愿意，就相信别人告诉你的每一句话。

But if you want to get the real spit, come hang out with me for a bit and maybe compare and contrast those two things.

但如果你想得到真正的吐槽，那就和我一起出去玩一会儿，也许可以比较和对比这两件事。

But if you don't want to do that, cool.

但如果你不想这样做，那也没关系。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

That's on you.

那是你的事了。

It took every tool that I wrote about in that book to get through that circle of influence, circle of concern, all the things that I was worried about.

我在那本书中写到的每一个工具都用来解决影响圈、关注圈和所有我担心的事情。

What can I do today?

今天我能做什么？

Breaking time down into the shortest chunks humanly possible, controlling how I talk to myself.

将时间分解为人类可能的最短时间块，控制我与自己交谈的方式。

It was absolutely soul-crushing, and 10 out of 10 do not recommend.

这绝对是令人心碎的，十分之十的人不推荐。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Zero stars on TripAdvisor.

TripAdvisor 上零星。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

That portion of the book stopped me, I have to say.

我不得不说，这本书的那一部分阻止了我。

There were other parts of the book that paused me, where I was like, "Whoa, I didn't expect this coming," and I take notes on-

这本书的其他部分让我停了下来，我当时想，“哇，我没想到会这样，”然后我记下了——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

what I listen to.

我听什么。

I also read the hard copy.

我还阅读了硬拷贝。

I should have mentioned that earlier.

我应该早点提到这一点。

I like to do both.

我喜欢两者都做。

It's really helpful for me.

这对我来说真的很有帮助。

I think maybe other people would benefit from that as well.

我想也许其他人也会从中受益。

But that segment where you said, "This is the hardest thing I'd ever been through," and it was, as you put it again, soul-crushing.

但是你说的那段，“这是我经历过的最艰难的事情”，正如你再次所说的那样，它是令人心碎的。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And what I gathered was, and I certainly can say I've experienced this before in a different context, that when other people's narratives start to, the boundaries between other people's narratives and your narratives, and in your case, kids were being affected-

我收集到的是，我当然可以说我以前在不同的背景下经历过这种情况，当其他人的叙述开始时，其他人的叙述和你的叙述之间的界限，在你的情况下，孩子们受到了影响-

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

which is huge.

这是巨大的。

As a child of divorced parents, I think it's also probably got to be somewhat different.

作为一个离婚父母的孩子，我认为情况可能也会有所不同。

You talk very kindly of your own parents.

你非常友善地谈论自己的父母。

Your story of your relationship to your mom-

你和你妈妈的关系的故事-

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

and her passing, which we can also get to, that also stopped me.

她的去世，我们也可以看到，这也阻止了我。

Also got me to call my mom.

还叫我给妈妈打电话。

So she'll thank you, right?

那么她会感谢你的，对吗？

I called my mom.

我打电话给我妈妈。

Well, time and-

好吧，时间和——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

You never know how much you have left.

你永远不知道你还剩下多少。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You never know how much time you have left.

你永远不知道你还剩下多少时间。

But what inspired you to talk about that in particular?

但是什么促使您特别谈论这个问题呢？

I know you're not one of these guys in, I don't want to say Team Guys in particular, but you're not one of these guys who wants to paint a perfect picture of himself.

我知道你不是这些人中的一员，我不想特别说“团队成员”，但你也不是那些想要描绘自己完美形象的人之一。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But talking about how a contentious divorce came close to, brought you really close to your edge.

但谈论一场有争议的离婚是如何临近的，让你真的接近了自己的边缘。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Maybe to your edge, but fortunately not over it.

也许到了你的边缘，但幸运的是没有超过它。

It's an interesting choice, and one that I appreciate, and I know readers will appreciate.

这是一个有趣的选择，我很欣赏，而且我知道读者也会欣赏。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It humanized the whole thing.

它使整个事情变得人性化。

But at what point did you decide that you wanted that in the book?

但你什么时候决定要把这些内容写在书中呢？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Probably from the beginning.

大概是从一开始吧。

I think one of the biggest mistakes people would make is if they would look at a job like the one I used to have and think that the people who do it are not normal people.

我认为人们会犯的最大错误之一是，如果他们看到一份像我以前那样的工作，并认为做这份工作的人不是普通人。

I was talking with Chris Williamson about this, and it's a mistake that people make.

我正在与克里斯·威廉姆森讨论这个问题，这是人们常犯的错误。

There's no Captain America shield and cape and cowl that you actually wear.

没有你真正佩戴的美国队长盾牌、斗篷和兜帽。

The things they ask you to do are sometimes pretty nutty.

他们要求你做的事情有时非常疯狂。

But after that, you go take your gear off, clean yourself up, get some food Get together with the guys, and you just talk about normal day-to-day shit.

但在那之后，你就脱掉你的装备，清理一下自己，吃点东西，和朋友们聚在一起，然后你就只谈论正常的日常琐事。

If you were having an argument with your wife before you went out on an operation, you're coming back to that.

如果你在出去手术之前和你的妻子发生了争吵，你就会回到这个话题。

If your house had burned down, which I wish I could say I didn't know somebody's house burned down, but I did.

如果你的房子被烧毁了，我希望我能说我不知道有人的房子被烧毁了，但我知道。

They got that notification shortly before we went out on objective.

在我们出发前不久他们就收到了通知。

Hopefully, didn't allow that to invade their mental thought process during, but when they came back, that's what they're dealing with.

希望不要让这种情况侵入他们的思维过程，但当他们回来时，这就是他们正在处理的事情。

Then you come back from deployment and you're presented with all of those things.

然后您从部署回来，就会看到所有这些东西。

It is such a mistake to think that there are people out there who have everything figured out or that are impervious to the things that are damaging to you as the person.

认为有人把一切都弄清楚了，或者认为对你这个人有损害的事情不会受到影响，这是错误的。

I started doing Q&A sessions on Friday for my show because I kept getting just this volume and wave of emails.

我从周五开始为我的节目进行问答环节，因为我不断收到这一卷又一波的电子邮件。

And at first, I wasn't really trying to tranche them into buckets, and I thought if I started doing the Friday episodes, it would decrease, but instead, it multiplied them by orders of magnitude.

起初，我并没有真正尝试将它们分成几个桶，我想如果我开始制作周五的剧集，它会减少，但相反，它使它们增加了几个数量级。

And I realized there really were some deep themes.

我意识到确实有一些深刻的主题。

One of them is, "I just don't know how to get started on my goals." But another one is, and this is the most dangerous one, "I feel like I'm alone.

其中之一是，“我只是不知道如何开始实现我的目标。”但另一个是，也是最危险的一个，“我觉得我很孤独。

I feel like I'm the only person dealing with this.

我觉得我是唯一处理这件事的人。

Hal, can you give me some advice?

哈尔，你能给我一些建议吗？

I look at your life from the outside, and it seems like you were able to do all these hard physical things.

我从外面看你的生活，似乎你能够做所有这些艰苦的体力活动。

What would you do if you were me?" I'm like, "Dude, I am you." So you have to put that in there.

如果你是我，你会怎么做？”我说：“伙计，我就是你。”所以你必须把它放在那里。

How can you not?

你怎么能不呢？

At the end of the day, I don't know what I want to do with my life, but I want to try to help people.

归根结底，我不知道自己想做什么，但我想尽力帮助别人。

I don't think you can do that if you're trying to sell bullshit.

如果你想兜售废话，我认为你无法做到这一点。

But I do think you can help if you can talk about your own personal experiences and your own mistakes and the things that you have suffered with.

但我确实认为，如果你能谈论你自己的个人经历、你自己的错误以及你所遭受的事情，你会有所帮助。

Not always past tense, because my life is certainly not perfect when I go through seasons of my life now, as does everybody.

并不总是过去时，因为当我现在经历人生的各个阶段时，我的生活肯定并不完美，就像每个人一样。

Why not be honest about that?

为什么不诚实地说呢？

Why try to portray this, follow my 12-step program for $19.99 every month, and you're going to have it all figured out.

为什么要尝试描绘这一点，按照我的 12 步计划每月支付 19.99 美元，你就会明白这一切。

Those are some of the most unhappy people that I know, by the way, and oftentimes not nearly as successful as they are presenting themselves.

顺便说一句，这些人是我认识的一些最不快乐的人，而且往往并不像他们表现的那么成功。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Definitely.

绝对是。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I would rather just be like, "Listen, you think your life is bad?

我宁愿这样说：“听着，你认为你的生活很糟糕吗？

Why don't you put a seatbelt on your chair?

你为什么不在椅子上系安全带？

I've got a little story for you." And then people hear that, they're like, "What?

我有一个小故事要讲给你听。”然后人们听到这个，他们会说，“什么？

You mean you guys deal with that stuff, too?" It's like, yes.

你是说你们也处理这些事情？”就像，是的。

That's the whole point.

这就是重点。

You're not alone.

你并不孤单。

You're not unique in this.

在这方面你并不是独一无二的。

So I think from the very beginning of deciding to write it, I didn't know necessarily that I would use that particular example, but it was the most difficult thing I've done in my life.

所以我认为从决定写它的一开始，我并不一定知道我会使用那个特定的例子，但这是我一生中做过的最困难的事情。

I'm obligated to put that in there and talk about it as openly as possible while maintaining the privacy of the other person involved.

我有义务将其放在那里并尽可能公开地谈论它，同时维护其他相关人员的隐私。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, I was impressed how you maintained respect for your kids-

是的，你对孩子的尊重给我留下了深刻的印象-

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

for your ex-wife, your current relationship, and at the same time acknowledge that the exchange was anything but cordial.

为你的前妻，你们现在的关系，同时承认这种交流一点也不亲切。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

It was anything but cordial.

这一点也不亲切。

And, I've talked about this before, but, and I don't know if it made it in the book, but I lost contact with my oldest son for 18 months.

而且，我以前谈过这个，但是，我不知道书中是否有提到，但我和我的大儿子失去了联系 18 个月了。

I was the one who initiated the end of the relationship, and he was the oldest at the time.

我是主动结束这段关系的人，而他是当时年龄最大的人。

And I don't know if it was a matter of him being in a certain phase of his own life, and shoot, you know the deal.

我不知道这是否是因为他正处于人生的某个阶段，然后开枪，你知道的。

Being a young man is not the easiest path, nor is being a young woman by any stretch.

成为一名年轻男子并不是最容易的道路，成为一名年轻女子也不是最容易的。

But it's really interesting how adults forget how difficult it was in those years to just get through the day when you think that everything is, you don't even know who you are.

但真正有趣的是，成年人忘记了那些年里，当你认为一切都是这样的时候，你甚至不知道自己是谁，度过这一天是多么困难。

You're trying to figure it all out.

你正试图弄清楚这一切。

But for 18 months, I tried calling him.

但 18 个月以来，我一直尝试给他打电话。

I tried texting him.

我试着给他发短信。

I tried writing him letters to his mom's house.

我试着给他写信到他妈妈家。

I would pull up next to him at a parking lot that he would go to before he went to work, and he would burn out of the parking lot without even acknowledging that I was there.

我会在他上班前去的一个停车场把车停在他旁边，他甚至会在不知道我在那里的情况下从停车场消失。

And you think SEAL training's hard?

你认为海豹突击队的训练很难吗？

Imagine something that you don't have the vocabulary to describe how much you love and thinking every day, "I don't know if I'm going to get this back.

想象一下，你无法用词汇来描述你有多喜欢某样东西，并且每天都在想，“我不知道我是否能把它拿回来。

What else can I do?" And now, thankfully, by staying the course, I think I have a closer relationship.

我还能做什么？”现在，值得庆幸的是，通过坚持到底，我认为我的关系更加紧密了。

And not everybody has that outcome, but our relationship is probably closer than it has ever been, and he'll call and ask for my advice or just want to bounce stuff off of me, which I think as a parent, if your kids are soliciting your time to ask questions, whatever it is you're doing, stop doing that and take the time.

并不是每个人都会有这样的结果，但我们的关系可能比以往任何时候都更亲密，他会打电话询问我的建议，或者只是想向我反驳一些东西，我认为作为父母，如果你的孩子正在征求你的时间问问题，无论你在做什么，停止这样做并花点时间。

Because it's pretty awesome.

因为它太棒了。

And it means that they care about what you say.

这意味着他们关心你所说的话。

But I thought that was gone, man.

但我以为那已经消失了，伙计。

You want to talk about soul searching?

你想谈谈灵魂探索吗？

There's nothing I did in the SEAL teams that made me wonder whether or not I was a good enough man to still exist.

我在海豹突击队中所做的一切都没有让我怀疑我是否是一个足够好的人来继续存在。

But that experience did.

但那次经历却做到了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Function.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 Function。

Function provides over 160 advanced lab tests to give you a clear snapshot of your bodily health.

功能提供超过 160 项高级实验室测试，让您清晰了解自己的身体健康状况。

This snapshot gives you insights into your heart health, your hormone health, autoimmune function, nutrient levels, and much more.

通过此快照，您可以深入了解心脏健康状况、激素健康状况、自身免疫功能、营养水平等。

They've also recently added access to advanced MRI and CT scans.

他们最近还增加了先进的 MRI 和 CT 扫描的访问权限。

Function not only provides testing of over 160 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, it also analyzes these results and provides recommendations for improving your health from top doctors.

Function 不仅提供对您身心健康至关重要的 160 多种生物标记物的测试，还分析这些结果并提供顶级医生改善您健康的建议。

For example, in a recent test with Function, I learned that some of my blood lipids were slightly out of range.

例如，在最近的一次 Function 测试中，我发现我的一些血脂稍微超出了范围。

As a result, I decided to start supplementing with nattokinase, which can naturally help reduce LDL cholesterol.

因此，我决定开始补充纳豆激酶，它自然可以帮助降低低密度脂蛋白胆固醇。

And it did.

确实如此。

In a follow-up test, I could confirm that this strategy worked.

在后续测试中，我可以确认这个策略是有效的。

My blood lipids are now back exactly where I want them.

我的血脂现在完全回到了我想要的水平。

Comprehensive lab testing of the sort that Function offers is just so important for health.

Function 提供的全面实验室测试对于健康非常重要。

I mean, how else are you going to know what's going on under the hood?

我的意思是，你还怎么知道幕后发生了什么？

And while I've been doing blood work for years, it used to be time-consuming, complicated, and expensive.

虽然我从事血液检查已有多年，但它过去非常耗时、复杂且昂贵。

In fact, I used to spend thousands of dollars per year trying to get this kind of data, and the data, frankly, were not all that good.

事实上，我曾经每年花费数千美元试图获得此类数据，但坦率地说，这些数据并不那么好。

But now with Function, it's extremely easy and affordable.

但现在有了 Function，它变得非常简单且经济实惠。

A Function membership is only a dollar a day, $365 a year.

Function 会员每天仅需 1 美元，每年 365 美元。

And if you think about the information it provides, and the health challenges it helps you avoid, and the proactive things that it can do for you to enhance your health, I truly look at it as a savings.

如果您考虑一下它提供的信息，它可以帮助您避免的健康挑战，以及它可以为您增强健康所做的积极主动的事情，我确实将其视为一种节省。

To learn more, visit functionhealth.com/huberman and use the code Huberman for a $50 credit towards your membership.

要了解更多信息，请访问 functionhealth.com/huberman 并使用代码 Huberman 获得 50 美元的会员积分。

Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman.

同样，这是 functionhealth.com/huberman。

Wow.

哇。

Well, I will say, as the description of your final moments with your mom led me to call my mom, I wasn't being facetious, it really did.

好吧，我会说，正如对你与妈妈的最后时刻的描述让我打电话给我妈妈一样，我不是在开玩笑，而是真的。

The description of the divorce process and the challenges that go there that, I don't want to make this about my story, resonated in certain ways.

对离婚过程的描述以及那里所面临的挑战，我不想让这些成为我的故事，在某些方面引起了共鸣。

I grew up in a very high-conflict divorce.

我是在高度冲突的离婚环境中长大的。

What you just said now, I'm on good terms with my dad, but I'm familiar with being the son who wants to be protective of his mom but still loves his dad, and being caught in the middle.

你刚才说的，我和我爸爸关系很好，但我很熟悉作为一个想保护妈妈但仍然爱爸爸的儿子，夹在中间。

And I would think about those, too.

我也会考虑这些。

How could you not, with all three of my kids, how...

你怎么能不带着我的三个孩子，怎么...

And I have this conversation with my wife now, who honestly is the only reason that I think I pulled out of that, was the recognition and seeing from somebody else like, "Hey, just so you know, I know you're going through it, but this person sees something in you that is worth..." I mean, I dedicated the book to my kids and to my wife for that reason.

现在我和我的妻子进行了这样的对话，老实说，她是我认为我退出的唯一原因，是其他人的认可和看到，“嘿，只是让你知道，我知道你正在经历它，但是这个人看到了你身上值得的东西......”我的意思是，出于这个原因，我将这本书献给我的孩子和我的妻子。

But we'll talk about this now because something, it's like, why would they say that, or why would they do that?

但我们现在要讨论这个，因为有些事情，比如，他们为什么会这么说，或者为什么他们会这么做？

And she's like, "Listen, that's always going to be their mom." I'm like, "Yep, got it.

她说，“听着，那永远是他们的妈妈。”我说：“是的，明白了。

Totally nailed it.

完全搞定了。

I understand now." And it re-centers and- Mm-hmm ...

我现在明白了。”它重新居中并且-嗯-嗯...

like, okay, doesn't make it any easier to deal with, but I understand.

就像，好吧，这并没有让事情变得更容易处理，但我理解。

Sons and fathers have a certain dynamic, and mothers and sons have a certain dynamic.

儿子和父亲有一定的动力，母亲和儿子也有一定的动力。

And of course, mothers and daughters, too.

当然，还有母亲和女儿。

Yeah.

是的。

And mothers and daughters and fathers.

还有母亲、女儿和父亲。

I only know my own experience.

我只知道我自己的经历。

Yeah.

是的。

I do have a sister, so there's a parallel experiment.

我确实有一个妹妹，所以有一个平行实验。

There's a control experiment.

有一个对照实验。

She wouldn't appreciate me calling her the control experiment, but- Did you realize in your parents' divorce that it was going bad before it did, before they got divorced?

她不会喜欢我称她为对照实验，但是——在你父母离婚的过程中，在他们离婚之前，你是否意识到事情会变得很糟糕？

Definitely.

确实。

And listen, I've done a lot of work with both of my parents, too.

听着，我也和我的父母一起做了很多工作。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

We're on great terms now.

我们现在关系很好。

I can truly say that.

我确实可以这么说。

My dad was on this podcast.

我爸爸参加了这个播客。

I know you've had conversations with your dad publicly.

我知道你曾与你父亲公开交谈过。

My dad and I are quite close.

我和我爸爸关系很亲密。

And I now look at it differently.

现在我以不同的方式看待它。

I'm living in a state of gratitude these days, where I basically am like, "Okay, they gave me life." Yeah.

这些天我生活在一种感激的状态中，我基本上会说，“好吧，他们给了我生命。”是的。

That's huge.

那是巨大的。

You can't realize that when you're younger, because you're like, "F my life," at times.

当你年轻的时候你无法意识到这一点，因为你有时会说“F my life”。

But they gave me life, so there's that.

但他们给了我生命，所以就是这样。

They gave me so many opportunities.

他们给了我很多机会。

And then the hardship of those years, I had my own story and version of it.

然后那些年的艰辛，我有了自己的故事和版本。

But recently, just because of some evolutions in my personal life, which are all good, I'm like, "I'm going to try and put myself in my dad's frame, where he was, what he was trying to do in his career and in his personal life, and then my mom's frame." I confess it's a little harder to do that because my dad and I are both male.

但最近，仅仅因为我个人生活中的一些演变，这些都是好的，我想，“我会尝试把自己放在我父亲的框架中，他在哪里，他在职业生涯和个人生活中试图做什么，然后是我妈妈的框架。”我承认做到这一点有点困难，因为我和我爸爸都是男性。

Yeah.

是的。

And there's always going to be that.

而且总会有这样的情况。

But my mom and I were still at home, and he was living elsewhere.

但我和妈妈还在家里，而他住在别处。

So I've tried to really work through it in those ways, and I keep coming back to this place where now I go, "Oh my God, that must have been so hard for them." Not for me.

所以我尝试以这些方式真正解决这个问题，而我不断回到这个地方，现在我会说，“天哪，这对他们来说一定太难了。”不适合我。

I had years of understanding of how hard it was for me.

多年来我一直明白这对我来说有多困难。

Yeah.

是的。

I go, for them, I'm like, holy shit, that's got to be so tough.

我去，对于他们来说，我想，天啊，这一定是太艰难了。

I was really hard on my dad.

我对我爸爸真的很严厉。

How old were you when you realized your parents were just people doing the best they could?

当你意识到你的父母只是尽力而为的人时，你几岁？

Yesterday.

昨天。

No, I'm just kidding.

不，我只是开玩笑。

No, but that, I mean- No. I- For a long time- Yeah ...

不，但是，我的意思是 - 不。我 - 很长一段时间 - 是的......

in life, as kids, though- Yeah ...

但在生活中，作为孩子，但是-是的......

your parents are, what they say, gospel.

正如他们所说，你的父母是福音。

Well- And they must have the answers to everything because they're older than any human being's ever been.

嗯——他们一定有一切问题的答案，因为他们比任何人类都年长。

Oh, man.

哦，伙计。

And then you realize they are out there making shit up on the fly, doing the best they can with the data set that they have in front of them, not doing great most of the time.

然后你意识到他们正在忙着编造一些东西，利用他们面前的数据集尽最大努力，但大多数时候都做得不好。

Yeah.

是的。

It's not because they're not trying- Yeah ...

这并不是因为他们没有尝试-是的......

to do great.

做伟大的事。

They're just fucking people.

他们只是该死的人。

Yeah.

是的。

Well, I can't speak for your kids, and I wouldn't.

好吧，我不能代表你的孩子说话，我也不会。

But I can say that for me, I joked yesterday, but it was actually very young because I came to this kind of black-and-white conclusion, which was not the correct one, which was, "They don't know what they're talking about." Hmm.

但我可以说，对我来说，我昨天开玩笑说，但这实际上很年轻，因为我得出了这种非黑即白的结论，这不是正确的，那就是“他们不知道自己在说什么。”唔。

And that led me to go elsewhere to look for answers, and I found a lot of answers to a lot of things that I wanted.

这导致我去其他地方寻找答案，我找到了很多我想要的东西的答案。

I also found some wrong answers.

我还发现了一些错误的答案。

Yeah.

是的。

I had great mentors throughout my life.

我一生都有伟大的导师。

And the day you realize that your PhD advisor doesn't have the answers, that's when you go get a postdoc advisor.

当你意识到你的博士导师没有答案的那一天，就是你去找博士后导师的时候。

And then you realize they don't have the answers, and you go start your own lab, and then you realize, oh, my God, how hard their job was, because now you're dealing with graduate students that are saying things like, "Do you even know what you're doing?" Until the paper gets accepted, and then they're like, "Oh, my God, you really know what you're doing." My first graduate student will laugh when she hears that.

然后你意识到他们没有答案，你开始自己的实验室，然后你意识到，哦，天哪，他们的工作有多难，因为现在你面对的是研究生，他们会说“你知道你在做什么吗？”直到论文被接受，然后他们就会说，“哦，天哪，你真的知道你在做什么。”我的第一个研究生听到这个会笑。

She's actually a professor now.

她现在实际上是一名教授。

She has two kids.

她有两个孩子。

She's happily married.

她婚姻幸福。

She has a super successful lab.

她有一个超级成功的实验室。

And I said, "Have you gone through that evolution?" And she's like, "Absolutely." So I will say this, and again, I can't speak for your kids whatsoever, but there was a real benefit to having that realization early that they don't know everything.

我说：“你经历过这种演变吗？”她说：“当然。”所以我要再说一遍，我不能代表你的孩子说话，但尽早认识到他们并不知道一切，这确实有好处。

Yeah.

是的。

Because you're forced to go look for certain answers elsewhere.

因为你被迫去别处寻找某些答案。

There's also something really beautiful to the reconnect that I have with my dad, and my mom and I were more constant over the years because, as you said, the relationship can be that much closer.

我和父亲重新建立联系也是一件非常美好的事情，这些年来我和妈妈的关系更加稳定，因为正如你所说，我们的关系可以更加亲密。

Would you wish it on anyone?

你会希望它发生在任何人身上吗？

No. Would you wish divorce on anyone?

不。您希望与任何人离婚吗？

No. But at the same time, my life wouldn't be what it was.

不。但与此同时，我的生活也不会像以前那样了。

So that portion of the book, I have to say, surprised me.

所以我不得不说，这本书的这一部分让我感到惊讶。

I know you're very humble, so please hear this as it lands.

我知道你很谦虚，所以请在它落地时听到它。

It impressed me that you were willing to put it in there in the way you did and how you handled it, and it really got me thinking about my relationship to my dad, my own family life now, where that's going, and it gave me a lot of hope and humility around like It's hard being a person, let alone being a parent.

让我印象深刻的是，你愿意以你所做的方式和处理方式把它放在那里，这真的让我思考我和父亲的关系，我自己的家庭生活，现在的发展方向，它给了我很多希望和谦逊，就像做一个人很难，更不用说做父母了。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And the kid piece is easy to relate to, but it really opened my perspective.

这个孩子的作品很容易让人产生共鸣，但它确实打开了我的视野。

So I'm grateful to you for putting that in there.

所以我很感谢你把它放在那里。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

To me, it just seemed natural.

对我来说，这似乎很自然。

I didn't even give it a second thought.

我什至没有多想。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But you're also jumping out off mountainsides in squirrel suits.

但你也会穿着松鼠服从山坡上跳下来。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You know?

你知道吗？

You-

你——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

But I'm telling you, if you've ever tasted that 9-volt the way I did, you might actually be like, "So what is this progression?"

但我告诉你，如果你曾经像我一样尝过 9 伏的电压，你可能会想，“那么这个过程是什么？”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Let's talk about the wingsuit and the 9-volt battery a little bit more, because you talked about the state that you were in, not just during, but in the six months or so afterwards.

让我们再多谈谈翼装和9伏电池，因为你谈到了你所处的状态，不仅仅是当时的状态，而是之后六个月左右的时间。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

It was after.

是在之后。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So that's not going to be the long tail of adrenaline, I'm guessing.

所以我猜这不会是肾上腺素的长尾。

I don't think you were walking around for six months like amped on life completely.

我认为你在六个月的时间里并没有完全享受生活。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Oh, no, the opposite.

哦，不，相反。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You said you were able to dial in.

你说你可以拨入。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Could you talk a little bit more about that?

您能多谈谈吗？

Did you ever take some time to think about like, "What is this?" And did you get that after a gunfight?

您是否曾花一些时间思考“这是什么？”枪战之后你明白了吗？

Did you get that after a funeral?

葬礼后你收到了吗？

You've gone to more than your fair share of those.

你已经超出了你应得的份额。

What do you think is going on there?

你认为那里发生了什么？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

It was the opposite of walking around adrenalized.

这与兴奋地四处走动相反。

People oftentimes have asked me, "What does it feel like to be an adrenaline junkie?" And I'd say, "I don't know.

人们经常问我：“成为一名肾上腺素瘾君子是什么感觉？”我会说：“我不知道。

I don't feel like I am one." I might participate in some things that from the outside would be viewed as people seeking adrenaline, but I don't like that hyper adrenalized feeling where...

我不觉得我是一个人。”我可能会参与一些从外面被视为寻求肾上腺素的人的事情，但我不喜欢那种超肾上腺素的感觉......

Well, and it could be different for anybody and everybody, whether it's the tasting copper in your mouth, or the heart rate, or the feeling in your hair.

嗯，对于每个人和每个人来说，这可能都是不同的，无论是嘴里的铜味、心率还是头发的感觉。

I don't like that sensation.

我不喜欢那种感觉。

And that's not what I felt on the edge.

这并不是我在边缘时的感受。

I just was scared shitless, quite frankly.

坦白说，我只是害怕极了。

It's not an adrenaline, and it would be the opposite of walking around feeling like that.

这不是肾上腺素，而且与那种四处走动的感觉相反。

I would describe it as feeling settled or anchored.

我会把它描述为一种安定或锚定的感觉。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

And the ability to just sit into it and think clear.

以及坐下来清晰思考的能力。

It's like having a stereo dial and the static, and you're just twisting it down.

这就像有一个立体声拨号盘和静电，你只需将其扭转即可。

And then the BS of life, and it comes back up, and it comes back up, and it comes back up.

然后是生活的废话，它又回来了，它又回来了，它又回来了。

Then you go on another one of those trips.

然后你再进行另一次这样的旅行。

Or I, I should say.

或者我应该说。

I would go on another one of those trips, and it would dial it down.

我会再去一次这样的旅行，它会降低它的强度。

After a gunfight, it's not like the movies.

枪战结束后，情况并不像电影中那样。

Most of the time it is so fast, but it's such a rote decision.

大多数时候它是如此之快，但这是一个死记硬背的决定。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But it's high adrenaline, presumably.

但大概是肾上腺素很高。

Moderate?

缓和？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I think it would depend on how much time you had to make a call.

我认为这取决于您需要拨打电话的时间。

Most of it is, or in many times, a broad example, come around a corner, binary threat or not threat.

其中大多数是，或者在很多时候，是一个广泛的例子，即将到来，二元威胁或非威胁。

There's not a whole lot of time to get ramped.

没有太多的时间来加速。

You've got to make a decision right there.

你必须当场做出决定。

I think maybe afterwards you might get an adrenaline dump, or it might catch up with you.

我想也许之后你可能会肾上腺素激增，或者它可能会追上你。

And I can't really think of any...

而且我实在想不出任何...

Anytime I've thought about an adrenaline dump or I've seen it, people actually kind of melt a little bit, the far side of that, where they just-

每当我想到肾上腺素倾泻或看到它时，人们实际上都会有点融化，在另一边，他们只是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

...

their performance degrades, for sure.

他们的表现肯定会下降。

They're on the other side of the bell curve of performance.

他们处于性能钟形曲线的另一侧。

I didn't see anybody experiencing that, or maybe they were doing that when we were on a helicopter or vehicle on the way out.

我没有看到任何人经历过这种情况，或者当我们乘坐直升机或车辆离开时他们可能正在这样做。

Not that much adrenaline.

没有那么多肾上腺素。

And again, it's just not as much time as movies and TV shows make it out.

再说一次，这并不像电影和电视节目所描述的那么长。

It's just not that sexy.

只是没那么性感。

When you got back, I would say, for myself, if the optic of time starts coming in at about the one-minute out, I would say as you were to get back, and I would say for most guys, it's more of a routine, but taking gear off a certain way, hang it up, uniform off, shower, food.

当你回来时，我会说，对我自己来说，如果时间的视觉在大约一分钟后开始出现，我会说，就像你要回来一样，我会说，对于大多数人来说，这更像是一种例行公事，但以某种方式脱掉装备，挂起来，脱掉制服，淋浴，食物。

I think you find that settling spot once the guys come back together, generally communally over a meal or back in your hut, whatever.

我想，一旦大家聚在一起，你就会找到安定的地方，通常是一起吃饭，或者回到你的小屋，等等。

Your team, we would usually have it separated by team.

你的团队，我们通常会按团队分开。

I think you would find your way to that settled space as well, too.

我想你也会找到通往那个安定空间的路。

So similar.

太相似了。

I don't know if it was as powerful, though.

但我不知道它是否有那么强大。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Let me ask it slightly differently.

让我稍微不同地问一下。

Coming back from a wingsuit jump, and it went well.

从翼装跳伞回来，一切都很顺利。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Everybody lived, including you.

每个人都活着，包括你。

Maybe learned a few things.

也许学到了一些东西。

Maybe some errors you were able to correct, which is also learning-

也许你能够纠正一些错误，这也是学习-

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

but you feel good about it.

但你对此感觉良好。

How do you sleep that night?

那天晚上你睡得怎么样？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Oh, so good.

哦，太好了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Hmm.

嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah, probably better sleep.

是的，可能睡得更好。

Let me see.

让我看看。

I'm trying to think about sleep.

我正在尝试思考睡眠的问题。

God, you're going out so repetitively.

天啊，你竟然如此频繁地外出。

Yeah.

是的。

Guys are...

伙计们是...

Well, it was an unhealthy reliance upon Ambien.

嗯，这是对安必恩的不健康依赖。

Is that sleep or hallucinating?

这是睡眠还是幻觉？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Ambien can induce some amnesia.

安必恩会导致一些健忘症。

But it has its place, but it's not the first line of attack.

但它有它的地位，但它不是第一道防线。

I know SEAL team guys liked Ambien.

我知道海豹突击队队员喜欢安必恩。

I think nowadays they're using things less-

我认为现在他们使用的东西越来越少了-

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

It's what they had available.

这就是他们所拥有的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

And unrestricted, in a bowl, take what you want.

而且不受限制，在碗里，想吃什么就拿什么。

I know people who would take two, unpackage another two, put them next to their bed with a little cup of water for the middle of the night when they woke up.

我知道有人会拿两个，打开另外两个的包装，把它们放在床边，并在半夜醒来时放上一小杯水。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I don't think four is healthy.

我认为四个不健康。

I'm not a doctor, but I don't think four is healthy.

我不是医生，但我不认为四个是健康的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There are better ways.

还有更好的方法。

But when you're out with your wingsuit buddies-

但当你和你的翼装伙伴出去时——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

and you guys had a great jump that day, and you're going back, everyone knocks out.

那天你们跳得很好，然后你们就回去了，每个人都被淘汰了。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

You're wiped.

你被消灭了。

You're just wiped.

你刚刚被抹掉了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And so for that next six months, you're feeling like you're in a really good space.

因此，在接下来的六个月里，您会感觉自己处于一个非常好的空间中。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

You would feel it changing at like the three-month mark.

你会感觉到它在三个月后发生了变化。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

But for a nice three months, for me, it was clean.

但在美好的三个月里，对我来说，一切都很干净。

You could just think better.

你可以想得更好一点。

And I don't know the mechanism behind it, other than maybe your brain gets better at parsing out the bullshit that doesn't actually matter, and as you get that focus.

我不知道其背后的机制，除了当你集中注意力时，你的大脑可能会更好地解析出实际上并不重要的废话。

So once it identifies it in that moment, you hold onto it less.

因此，一旦它在那一刻识别出它，你就会减少对它的执着。

I don't know what's going on there.

我不知道那里发生了什么事。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's still a mystery.

这仍然是一个谜。

I've spent some time looking at this in advance of this conversation.

在这次谈话之前我花了一些时间研究这个问题。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The simple theory would be it raises your stress threshold.

简单的理论是它会提高你的压力阈值。

So the things that get you to secrete adrenaline, like everyday trivial things, that's not happening anymore.

因此，那些让你分泌肾上腺素的事情，比如日常琐事，就不再发生了。

Okay, that's a reasonable theory.

好吧，这是一个合理的理论。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's actually what the ice bath will do.

这实际上就是冰浴的作用。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's what a morning workout will do.

这就是早上锻炼的作用。

But it turns out that's not what happens when people go into these flow states, and you get this long tail of flow opportunities.

但事实证明，当人们进入这些心流状态时，情况并非如此，并且你会得到这种心流机会的长尾。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because the tendency when people's stress threshold goes up too high is that they tend to engage in a lot of meaningless behaviors because they're not stressful enough.

因为当人们的压力阈值过高时，他们往往会因为压力不够而做出许多无意义的行为。

You want the sensation of like, "That was a tough conversation, and I've got to deal with it," or, "That was a tough conversation.

你想要这样的感觉，“那是一次艰难的谈话，我必须处理它，”或者，“那是一次艰难的谈话。

I just need to avoid this person." This is just not a healthy...

我只是需要避开这个人。”这只是不健康的...

Stress is a good indicator of pain.

压力是疼痛的良好指标。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And sometimes it's a psychological pain that we need to overcome ourselves.

有时这是我们需要克服的心理痛苦。

Sometimes it is a psychological pain we need to excise from our lives.

有时，这是我们需要从生活中消除的心理痛苦。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So it sounds very different than that.

所以听起来和那很不一样。

And the reason I'm so interested in this is it's the exact same way that, he seems to come up a lot on this podcast, Rick Rubin has described after putting together an album with some amazing artists where they've just been working and working and working, it's not just the time while doing the work, it's in the months that follow.

我对此如此感兴趣的原因是，他似乎在这个播客上出现了很多次，Rick Rubin 在与一些出色的艺术家制作了一张专辑后描述道，他们一直在工作、工作、工作，这不仅仅是工作时的时间，而是在接下来的几个月里。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's like this piece.

就像这个作品一样。

It's the post-flow state something.

这是流后状态。

We don't have a name for this.

我们没有这个名字。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

And it's almost like it lowers your stress threshold.

这几乎就像它降低了你的压力阈值。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Because I agree with you.

因为我同意你的观点。

If it just raised your stress threshold, I would've just continued to do riskier and riskier behaviors.

如果它只是提高了你的压力阈值，我就会继续做出越来越危险的行为。

But at the end, I feel like it lowers it and just strips away the BS stress and makes you less likely to invest in those other potentially nonsense, high-risk behaviors.

但最终，我觉得它降低了它，只是消除了废话压力，让你不太可能投资于其他可能无意义的高风险行为。

I have no ability to describe it whatsoever.

我没有能力描述它。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

And again, I didn't realize what that head space was giving me while I was in the military.

再说一次，我没有意识到当我在军队时，头部空间给了我什么。

I knew something was missing after I had gotten out, and I think a lot of guys find themself in that kind of abyss of how do I replicate this?

我知道我出去后缺少了一些东西，我想很多人发现自己陷入了那种我该如何复制这个的深渊？

Spoiler alert, you can't really, and they have to deal with that and work their way through that.

剧透警报，你真的不能，他们必须处理这个问题并努力解决这个问题。

And I'm not recommending that wingsuit skydiving or BASE jumping is the path for guys getting out, and I specifically wrote about this.

我并不建议人们通过翼装跳伞或定点跳伞来摆脱困境，我专门写过这一点。

I've seen people who can do this in art, getting lost in creating something, or yoga or meditation or ice bath or sauna, or I found a lot of it in the ability to detach and be in the moment in jujitsu.

我见过有人可以在艺术中做到这一点，迷失在创造某些东西，或者瑜伽或冥想或冰浴或桑拿中，或者我在柔术中发现了很多超然并处于当下的能力。

Even though it's totally artificial violence, you're in the moment, because it sucks when your friend chokes you, because you want to choke your friend, obviously.

尽管这完全是人为的暴力，但你却处于当下，因为当你的朋友掐死你时，这很糟糕，因为你显然想掐死你的朋友。

But you can find it, it doesn't have to be prescriptive.

但你可以找到它，它不必是规定性的。

But if you can find your way there, I don't care that nobody can describe what it is.

但如果你能找到通往那里的路，我不在乎没有人能描述它是什么。

I am here to tell you it will change your life if you can find your way into that space.

我来这里是想告诉你，如果你能找到进入那个空间的方法，那将会改变你的生活。

It really will.

真的会的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There's a wonderful book, in addition to yours.

除了你的书之外，还有一本很棒的书。

It turns out there's another great book out there.

事实证明还有另一本很棒的书。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

How dare someone.

怎么敢有人。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No audio version, but it's called "The Secret Pulse of Time."

没有音频版本，但它被称为“时间的秘密脉动”。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Okay.

好的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And it's about time perception.

这与时间感知有关。

And so the idea that comes to mind that maybe we could talk about is perhaps these endeavors, whether or not it's wingsuiting or producing an album or painting or gardening or whatever it is, jujitsu, whatever it is that somebody does to access this flow state and gets this long tail of post-flow benefit, whatever we-

因此，我想到的也许我们可以谈论的想法也许就是这些努力，无论是翼装飞行还是制作专辑、绘画、园艺或其他什么，柔术，无论某人为进入这种心流状态并获得心流后好处的长尾而做的任何事情，无论我们-

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

whatever that is.

不管那是什么。

We don't have a name for it, again.

我们又没有给它起一个名字。

It seems to calibrate our time perception, is one idea.

一种想法是，它似乎可以校准我们的时间感知。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Hmm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That perhaps brings us so much into each moment, that it's almost like our ability to capture moments becomes high fidelity.

这或许让我们对每个时刻都投入了如此多的精力，以至于我们捕捉瞬间的能力几乎变得高度保真。

Again, you talked about getting the static out.

您再次谈到消除静电。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right?

对吗？

And then when we go back into everyday life, it's almost like we're perfectly calibrated.

然后当我们回到日常生活中时，我们几乎已经完美校准了。

I'm stating a theory here.

我在这里陈述一个理论。

So now you wake up the next morning, you're home, and your kid comes in, and they're talking about something, and you're thinking, and we'll get back to toilet paper in a little bit.

所以现在你第二天早上醒来，你回到家，你的孩子进来，他们正在谈论一些事情，你正在思考，我们稍后会回到卫生纸。

And you'll be like, "Listen, dude, you're talking about this, but you didn't take care of the toilet paper." This will become relevant in a moment.

你会说，“听着，伙计，你在谈论这个，但你没有照顾好卫生纸。”这很快就会变得有意义。

If you read Andy's, I've never thought so much about toilet paper rolls in the bathroom and how they're stacked.

如果你读过安迪的书，我从来没有想过这么多关于浴室里的卫生纸卷以及它们是如何堆放的。

My girlfriend and I had a conversation about it the other day because of Andy's book.

前几天我和女朋友因为安迪的书讨论了这个问题。

That will all make sense in a few moments.

稍后一切都会变得有意义。

But it's almost like you can still be in that real-world stuff, but your time perception is adjusted so that you know what you're doing.

但这几乎就像你仍然可以身处现实世界中，但你的时间感知被调整，这样你就知道自己在做什么。

It's just that thing.

就是这样的事。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So then when you pivot to the next thing, and you need to sit down and do some work, it's almost like you can adjust your frame rate appropriately.

因此，当您转向下一件事时，您需要坐下来做一些工作，几乎就像您可以适当调整帧速率一样。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

It's like it pulls you into that.

就好像它把你拉进去一样。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

It allows you to sink into those things-

它让你沉浸在那些事情中——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

...

and digest better, to think better.

更好地消化，更好地思考。

Yeah, the clarity of thought, and it would change how I thought about an argument or a conversation, and it would allow me to look at it from a different perspective.

是的，思路清晰，它会改变我对争论或对话的看法，它会让我从不同的角度看待它。

And I have no idea why that was the case.

我不知道为什么会这样。

But I agree with what you're saying.

但我同意你的说法。

I think there might be some aspect of that, the fidelity and the ability to truly see clearly in that moment, pulling you and anchoring you into that.

我认为可能有某些方面，那就是忠诚度和在那一刻真正清晰地看到的能力，拉动你并将你锚定在那里。

There's something there.

那里有东西。

I don't know.

我不知道。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

A really cool paper came out just the other day showing that when we're stressed, prior memories, while we can still access them, we can't make insightful connections between things.

前几天发表了一篇非常酷的论文，表明当我们感到压力时，虽然我们仍然可以访问以前的记忆，但我们无法在事物之间建立深刻的联系。

And I won't describe the whole experiment.

我不会描述整个实验。

It was really cool.

真的很酷。

They basically have people remember pairs of objects, and then there's some link between the two pairs.

他们基本上让人们记住成对的物体，然后这两对物体之间存在某种联系。

So, it would be like apple, yerba mate, and there'll be yerba mate, wingsuit.

所以，就像苹果，马黛茶，还有马黛茶，翼装。

And then at some point later, you need to link the wingsuit to the apple, right?

然后在稍后的某个时刻，您需要将翼装与苹果连接起来，对吧？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Conceptually, not just that way.

从概念上讲，不只是这样。

They built up from basic things like I just described.

它们是根据我刚才描述的基本内容构建的。

And as you ramp up people's levels of stress, you essentially lose the ability to make these connected insights.

当你增加人们的压力水平时，你基本上就失去了获得这些相互关联的见解的能力。

And this speaks to the hardwiring and the software that the brain uses.

这涉及到大脑使用的硬连线和软件。

I almost wonder whether or not your stress threshold, as you said, is brought down so that you can now have novel insights.

我几乎想知道你的压力阈值是否如你所说降低了，以便你现在可以有新的见解。

Like, "Oh, this conversation with my son about the toilet paper is actually important-

就像，“哦，与我儿子关于卫生纸的对话实际上很重要 -

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

in a way that isn't just me being annoyed." And I feel like maybe.

从某种程度上来说，不仅仅是我感到恼火。”我觉得也许吧。

It'd be fun to explore this as the science evolves with you, and talk about it more.

随着科学的发展与您一起探索这个问题并更多地讨论它会很有趣。

Because I think-

因为我认为——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

the reason I'm so obsessed with this is for two reasons.

我对此如此着迷的原因有两个。

One is navigating everyday life, which is a lot.

一个人正在应对日常生活，这是很多的。

That's a lot of what people are challenged with.

这是人们面临的很多挑战。

It's so vital.

这是非常重要的。

The other is how to navigate the hard stuff in life.

另一个是如何应对生活中的困难。

So I want to get to both of those things and talk about some examples from your life and from your book.

所以我想谈谈这两件事，并谈谈你生活中和书中的一些例子。

But before we do that, I feel like we're obligated to talk about toilet paper.

但在此之前，我觉得我们有义务谈谈卫生纸的问题。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

The number of pictures I have received via email of people taking pictures of their kids' bathrooms and basically saying, "I thought I was the only one."

我通过电子邮件收到的照片数量很多，人们给孩子的浴室拍照，基本上都是在说：“我以为我是唯一的一个。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

All right.

好的。

This is really seeming like an inside joke now for those that read Andy's book.

对于那些读过安迪的书的人来说，这确实像是一个内部笑话。

You go, "All right.

你说：“好吧。

We will get back to time perception, navigating the everyday-

我们将回到时间感知，驾驭日常生活——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Oh, God

哦，上帝

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

and the hard things in life." I won't forget.

以及生活中的困难。”我不会忘记。

We'll spin that plate in the background.

我们将在后台旋转该盘子。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's spinning.

它在旋转。

The toilet paper section, yes, it made me laugh.

卫生纸区，是的，它让我笑了。

It also made me think about the little things I do each day and the little, tiny, itty-bitty shortcuts that I'm taking and how those ratchet up.

这也让我思考我每天做的小事，以及我正在采取的微小的捷径，以及这些捷径是如何逐步加强的。

So tell us about toilet paper.

那么请告诉我们卫生纸的情况。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

It always takes longer to do it wrong, is the bottom line.

做错事总是需要更长的时间，这是底线。

And we all are tempted with these shortcuts.

我们都受到这些捷径的诱惑。

So-

所以——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's the mantra we have to remember

这是我们必须记住的口头禅

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

...

my children, their bathroom, if there was going to be an Ebola outbreak in the US, it might start there.

我的孩子们，他们的浴室，如果美国爆发埃博拉疫情，可能会从那里开始。

I don't know anything about Ebola, but I feel like it might start there.

我对埃博拉一无所知，但我觉得它可能就是从这里开始的。

So, as with most bathrooms, there's toilet paper rolls, and my kids, when they finish a toilet paper roll, instead of popping it off the holder, taking it, and going and getting a new one, they go get a new one, and they sit it right there.

所以，和大多数浴室一样，有卫生纸卷，我的孩子们，当他们用完一卷卫生纸时，他们不会把它从支架上取下来，拿走，然后去买一个新的，而是去拿一个新的，然后把它放在那里。

So it's like empty toilet paper roll up against the wall.

所以这就像空卫生纸卷在墙上一样。

You would think that when this one is done, they would take them both, but instead, they do this.

你可能会认为，当这个完成后，他们会把它们都拿走，但相反，他们这样做了。

So there's two against the wall, and then the other roll goes here.

所以有两个靠墙，然后另一卷放在这里。

Now, I can't use this one because this is open, but when this roll is done, you would think that they wouldn't create a pyramid, which historically, from my understanding of math, isn't great to balance things on.

现在，我不能使用这个，因为它是开放的，但是当这一卷完成时，你会认为他们不会创建一个金字塔，从历史上看，根据我对数学的理解，金字塔不太适合平衡事物。

But they will make a pyramid and then put this up here, and inevitably this roll goes forward, hits the ground behind the toilet, and then they start screaming from the bathroom, "I need toilet paper, Dad." To which I respond, "You got yourself there.

但他们会做一个金字塔，然后把它放在这里，不可避免地，这个卷会向前移动，撞到马桶后面的地面，然后他们开始在浴室里尖叫，“爸爸，我需要卫生纸。”对此我回应道：“你已经做到了。

You can figure it out on your own."

你可以自己想办法。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This is all of your kids?

这都是你的孩子吗？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah, for sure.

是的，当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And they're all your kids?

他们都是你的孩子？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

All right.

好吧。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I just-

我只是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm not really saying anything there.

我实际上并没有说什么。

No, I'm just-

不，我只是——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I'm just, it's...

我只是，这只是...

And so the point in all of this is, if you don't want to be somebody screaming for a toilet paper roll, it actually takes less time to go, and when you're out of toilet paper, disconnect it, throw it away on the way, and bring another one in.

所以这一切的重点是，如果你不想成为一个尖叫着要卫生纸卷的人，实际上需要更少的时间去，当你用完卫生纸时，把它拔下来，在路上扔掉，然后再带一张进来。

It's the same thing as laundry.

这和洗衣服是一样的。

Do your laundry.

洗衣服。

I'm not perfect at this by any stretch, but do your laundry, fold your laundry, put it away.

无论如何，我在这方面都不是完美的，但是洗衣服，折叠衣服，把它收起来。

That always takes less time than do your laundry in a pile.

这总是比洗一堆衣服花费的时间更少。

Then you're in a pinch, and you're looking for your T-shirt, whatever shirt you want to wear.

然后你就陷入了困境，正在寻找你的 T 恤，无论你想穿什么衬衫。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I own a lot of black clothing.

我有很多黑色衣服。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Oh, my God.

哦，天啊。

I do, too.

我也是。

It's all blues, blacks, and an occasional red.

都是蓝色、黑色，偶尔还有红色。

The red ones are easy to find in that particular cohort.

在该特定群体中很容易找到红色的。

But otherwise, you're in there, and it's stuff's inside out, so you don't know if it's got the right logo.

但除此之外，你在里面，里面的东西都翻了个底朝天，所以你不知道它的标志是否正确。

There's socks coming out of the sleeves.

袜子从袖子里流出来了。

5X the amount of time that would take you as opposed to just wash your laundry, dry it, fold it, put it away.

与洗衣服、烘干、折叠、收起相比，您需要花费 5 倍的时间。

I have tried to express this message to my children to the limits of my vocabulary.

我竭尽全力向我的孩子们表达这个信息。

I went into my daughter's bathroom before we came up here.

在我们来这里之前我去了我女儿的浴室。

There was three rolls of toilet paper.

有三卷卫生纸。

Two of them were empty and wedged on the side, and the third one was vertical, and I just closed the door and walked away, pretend like it didn't happen.

其中两个是空的，楔在一边，第三个是垂直的，我只是关上门走开，假装这件事没有发生。

They don't listen to me.

他们不听我的。

It always takes longer to do it wrong, and those are the little shortcuts that we all take.

做错事总是需要更长的时间，而这些都是我们都采取的小捷径。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

We tell ourselves, "I'll do it later," or, "I don't have time to do it right now." We all have the same amount of time.

我们告诉自己，“我稍后再做”，或者“我现在没有时间做”。我们都有同样多的时间。

It's where you're allocating your time.

这是你分配时间的地方。

Do it up front, and I assure you.

预先做好，我向你保证。

The McRaven speech about making your bed.

麦克雷文关于整理床铺的演讲。

The number of parents that probably thought that was life-changing was just amazing.

认为这会改变生活的父母数量真是惊人。

Like, yes, somebody else is telling my kid to make the bed.

就像，是的，有人在告诉我的孩子整理床铺。

It's not actually about that.

实际上不是这个问题。

It's about having the discipline to do the little things, and it is way better at the end of the night when you're tired to come back to a bed that is made and ready for you to hop into than having to, not most people would do this, but make it first and then get into it.

这是关于有纪律地做小事，晚上结束时，当你累了时，回到一张已经准备好让你跳上的床比被迫跳上床要好得多，不是大多数人会这样做，而是先做好，然后再上床睡觉。

But it just gets worse and worse and worse.

但情况只会变得越来越糟。

And in the end, it will take you longer to correct for that than the individual action of just doing it right the first time.

最终，与第一次就把事情做好的个人行动相比，你需要更长的时间来纠正这一点。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What's your advice with respect to this?

您对此有何建议？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I can give you the advice, but I also don't follow it all the time either.

我可以给你建议，但我也不会一直遵循它。

Every single decision that you have in front of you in your life will have a slightly easier and a slightly harder choice.

你生命中面临的每一个决定都会有一个稍微容易一点和一个稍微困难一点的选择。

Make the slightly harder one more often than the slightly easier one.

做稍难的一项比做稍简单的一项要多一些。

And the thing I liked a lot about McRaven's messaging around the bed is that it started your day with a small act of discipline that could seem meaningless, but then what if you pair another small one with that?

我非常喜欢麦克雷文在床上传达的信息，那就是它以一个看似毫无意义的小纪律行为开始了你的一天，但如果你再搭配另一个小行为呢？

And then another small one with that.

然后还有另一个小东西。

I think that can really set you up for success in your day.

我认为这确实可以帮助您在这一天取得成功。

And yes, at the end of the day, boom, your bed's ready to go, and you can hop back into it.

是的，一天结束时，你的床已经准备好了，你可以跳回去了。

It just feels better to get into a made bed.

躺在铺好的床上感觉更好。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It took me a while to realize that most of the people that I could tell were really squared away in their jobs, and because I happen to know their personal lives, too, also their personal lives, they're pretty tidy people.

我花了一段时间才意识到，我所认识的大多数人都在工作中认真工作，而且因为我碰巧也了解他们的个人生活，也了解他们的个人生活，所以他们是非常整洁的人。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Whether by sheer will or by reflex, they're just pretty tidy.

无论是纯粹的意志还是条件反射，它们都非常整洁。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I don't think it's ever by reflex.

我不认为这是本能反应。

I think it's always by will.

我认为这总是出于意愿。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

And it's not fun, and don't get me wrong.

这并不有趣，别误会我的意思。

I'm not perfect at it.

我在这方面并不完美。

But if I can look back at my lives or my life at times where things were a little bit less effort involved in being successful or making traction, it wasn't in chaos.

但如果我能回顾一下我的生活，或者回顾一下我的生活，那些在成功或吸引人的过程中需要付出一点努力的时候，我的生活并不是一片混乱。

It was in a little bit more of a controlled environment by me, again, controlling what I can control, which is my actions in the morning.

这又是在一个由我控制的环境中，控制我能控制的事情，也就是我早上的行为。

If you sit down in front of a desk and you can't even find the thing that you're looking for to do the work on it, I don't know anybody who has become ultra-successful in life with that model.

如果你坐在办公桌前，却找不到你想要的东西来完成工作，我不知道有谁在生活中通过这种模式取得了超级成功。

But I think we could both sit down and talk about some people who are nailing it, and I think the vast majority of them would fall into that tidy category or disciplined category.

但我认为我们都可以坐下来谈谈一些正在解决这个问题的人，我认为他们中的绝大多数人都会属于那种整洁的类别或纪律严明的类别。

But it's micro discipline that can make it seem as if you have this macro discipline, but that's not actually what it is.

但微观纪律可以让你看起来好像有宏观纪律，但实际上并非如此。

It's the little things that nobody sees.

都是一些别人看不到的小事。

That's what leads you to that end state.

这就是引导你达到最终状态的原因。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's interesting.

这很有趣。

Earlier, we were talking about social pressure and alcohol and social media.

早些时候，我们讨论了社会压力、酒精和社交媒体。

It's interesting to me that there seems to be some degree of social pressure to not do the slightly harder thing.

对我来说有趣的是，似乎存在某种程度的社会压力，不去做稍微困难的事情。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Hmm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What we're describing now, I never get into thinking about what the comments would be, but I'd be willing to bet one pinky that A fair number of people are either thinking or commenting directly "Yeah, like that's really neurotic.

我们现在所描述的，我从来没有考虑过评论会是什么，但我愿意打赌，相当多的人要么在思考，要么直接评论“是的，这真的很神经质。

Like loosen up."

就像放松一样。”

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah, take a picture of your fucking room and send it to me.

是的，给你他妈的房间拍张照片并发送给我。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I bet it looks like shit.

我敢打赌它看起来像屎。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Exactly.

正是如此。

My dad's first generation immigrant from South America, and I'll never forget when, it was in the mid-'90s, he probably took me to a movie in an attempt to repair our relationship, and eventually it worked, Dad.

我父亲是来自南美的第一代移民，我永远不会忘记，那是在 90 年代中期，他可能带我去看电影，试图修复我们的关系，最终成功了，爸爸。

We're doing great.

我们做得很好。

Talked to him today.

今天和他聊过。

I called him today.

我今天给他打电话了。

We're on such good terms.

我们关系这么好

It feels good to be able to say it.

能够说出来的感觉真好。

And I'll never forget, we were at the movies, and there were these people walking by, and they were wearing kind of like baggy sweats and flip-flops or something.

我永远不会忘记，我们在看电影，有这些人走过，他们穿着宽松的运动衫和人字拖之类的东西。

And he stopped me, and he's a very orderly guy, and he said, "See that?

他阻止了我，他是一个非常有秩序的人，他说：“看到了吗？

That's the beginning of the end." And I said, "What do you mean?" And he said, "I come from a third-world country.

这就是结束的开始。”我说：“你是什么意思？”他说：“我来自第三世界国家。

When people start going to the movies in their pajamas, it's the beginning of the end." And I thought, hey, this is like, you couldn't be more out-- I actually think he's right.

当人们开始穿着睡衣去看电影时，那就是终结的开始。”我想，嘿，这就像，你不能更出格了——我实际上认为他是对的。

What he was talking about is that when the social pressure is not sufficient to keep people feeling as if they need to show up as if they're in public.

他所说的是，当社会压力不足以让人们感觉他们需要像在公共场合一样出现时。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right?

对吗？

And he might've been a bit extreme, but when that social pressure isn't there, then the social pressure eventually erodes around what people can say, what they can do, and then I do think that era of kind of Jerry Springer daytime television, where people would watch people who were way more screwed up than them so they could feel a lot less screwed up.

他可能有点极端，但是当社会压力不存在时，社会压力最终会侵蚀人们能说什么、能做什么，然后我确实认为那个时代就像杰里·斯普林格白天电视那样，人们会看到那些比他们更糟糕的人，这样他们就可以感觉不那么糟糕了。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

What's that called?

那叫什么？

Schadenfreude?

幸灾乐祸？

When you take pleasure in other people's pain?

你什么时候以别人的痛苦为乐？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Well, I think that's the word for it, for sure.

嗯，我想这确实是这个词。

But I think this is kind of adjacent to that, where it's like giving yourself license to not feel that bad because, either they're just so neurotic that I don't want anything to do with that kind of world where everything's right angles, or like, well, at least I'm not in-

但我认为这有点接近，这就像给自己一个许可，让自己不要感觉那么糟糕，因为，要么他们太神经质，我不想与那种一切都是直角的世界有任何关系，要么就像，好吧，至少我不-

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

total squalor.

完全肮脏。

And this is where I think that, we hear so much about, oh, everyone's presenting their best selves on social media.

我认为这就是我们听到很多关于，哦，每个人都在社交媒体上展示最好的自己的地方。

Also a problem to seem perfect-

看起来完美也是一个问题——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

because no one's perfect.

因为没有人是完美的。

But I do think that there is this drift where we go, well, it's not going to crush my life, the toilet paper thing.

但我确实认为我们的方向有这样的倾向，好吧，它不会毁掉我的生活，卫生纸的事情。

Like, if it were going to cost me my relationship or my allowance, your kids might think about it differently, right?

就像，如果这会让我失去我的关系或我的零用钱，你的孩子可能会有不同的想法，对吗？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But what I got from your book, this section of your book, is that it's because the consequences are so small at the individual level, but the upside is so big-

但我从你的书中，你书中的这一部分得到的是，这是因为在个人层面上的后果是如此之小，但好处却如此之大——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

when you collect these things together, that the real incentive to do the slightly harder thing is there.

当你把这些东西收集在一起时，你就会发现去做稍微困难的事情的真正动力就在那里。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

The toilet paper's not going to cost you your life.

卫生纸不会要你的命。

If it does, I'm going to need a case study on how that happened, because I'm fascinated at this point.

如果确实如此，我将需要一个案例研究来了解这是如何发生的，因为我对此很着迷。

But what if it, we'll call it what it is, either the lack of discipline or the laziness in the moment changes the trajectory of your life because you apply that to everything in your life, because that's how you start your day and how you end your day.

但如果它，我们就这么称呼它，要么是缺乏纪律，要么是当下的懒惰改变了你的生活轨迹，因为你将其应用到你生活中的一切，因为这就是你开始新的一天和结束你的一天的方式。

I get it.

我得到它。

I'll take a picture of my room and send it out.

我会给我的房间拍张照片并发送给大家。

Guess what?

你猜怎么着？

It's not hospital corners on the bed, and there's probably something in the corner.

床上不是医院的角落，角落里可能有什么东西。

I'm not saying that I'm perfect in this, but it's not being neurotic.

我并不是说我在这方面很完美，但这并不是神经质。

It's doing the work that nobody sees.

它正在做没有人看到的工作。

And for the people who say, "Oh, that seems too neurotic for me." Let's have a cup of coffee.

对于那些说“哦，这对我来说太神经质了”的人来说。我们喝杯咖啡吧。

Where do you want to be in your life, and where are you at in that journey?

你想在你的生活中处于什么位置，你在这段旅程中处于什么位置？

I'm fascinated by, and like we were saying, the Internet's the best worst thing.

正如我们所说，我着迷于互联网是最好也是最坏的东西。

People can find this conversation and then critique us to death and say that we're being neurotic.

人们可能会发现这段对话，然后批评我们，说我们神经质。

But I'd also love to connect with somebody and say, "Listen, why do you have an allergic reaction to that particular statement?

但我也很想与某人联系并说：“听着，为什么你对那个特定的说法有过敏反应？

Is it because perhaps you're living it?

是因为也许你正经历着这样的生活吗？

And if you are, let's talk about the potential impact that it's having." Because again, I didn't create this.

如果你是的话，让我们谈谈它所产生的潜在影响。”因为这又不是我创造的。

I'm passing along one of the mantras in the teams, how you do anything is how you do everything.

我在团队中传递了一句口头禅：你如何做任何事情就是如何做所有事情。

There's so many stupid small things that you do specifically in training that have nothing to do with anything except doing the stupid small thing.

你在训练中专门做了很多愚蠢的小事，除了做这些愚蠢的小事之外，与任何事情都没有关系。

That's it.

就是这样。

The two-mile swim, you have a Ka-Bar knife in one of your hands and a CO2 cartridge in another, and you're wearing your life jacket, and we're like, got a jeweler's loupe out looking at the little twist-in section of the CO2 cartridge.

在两英里的游泳中，你一只手拿着一把卡巴刀，另一只手拿着二氧化碳气瓶，你穿着救生衣，我们就像拿出珠宝商的放大镜观察二氧化碳气瓶的小旋入部分。

God help you if I find a grain of sand or a fleck of rust.

如果我发现一粒沙子或一粒铁锈，上帝会帮助你。

Guess what?

你猜怎么着？

The jacket's still going to function even if both of those things still exist because it actually has nothing to do with the knurling of the CO2 cartridge and everything to do with, I told you to have nothing in this to make sure it was basically brand new because you have to follow the procedure.

即使这两件事仍然存在，夹克仍然可以发挥作用，因为它实际上与 CO2 墨盒的滚花无关，而与一切有关，我告诉过你不要在其中添加任何东西，以确保它基本上是全新的，因为你必须遵循程序。

Because the procedure is what's going to save your life.

因为该程序将挽救您的生命。

Can you, even when you're exhausted and you don't want to and you have limited time, do what I told you to do because of the impact that it'll have?

即使你已经筋疲力尽、你不想这样做，而且你的时间有限，你能否按照我告诉你的去做，因为它会产生影响？

That exists in that community everywhere.

这种情况存在于该社区的任何地方。

So it's not me.

所以这不是我。

I'm just telling you.

我只是告诉你。

The most successful people that I have encountered are not becoming successful in chaos.

我遇到的最成功的人并不是在混乱中取得成功的。

Now, of course, there will be somebody that can point to something and say, "Well, what about this person?" I'm not saying that there's not a, what do they call it, a white elephant or a black elephant, whatever it may be.

当然，现在有人可以指着某件事说：“那么，这个人呢？”我并不是说不存在，他们怎么称呼它，白象或黑象，无论它是什么。

Does that scale?

那有规模吗？

No, it doesn't.

不，事实并非如此。

So if you're trying to replicate that, "Oh, they did it through chaos, so I'm going to as well." Live your life however you want to, but maybe you and I aren't being neurotic.

因此，如果你想复制这一点，“哦，他们是在混乱中做到的，所以我也会这么做。”随心所欲地生活，但也许你和我并没有神经质。

Maybe we're just trying to help.

也许我们只是想帮忙。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

You said even when exhausted and limited in time, those are the two times when these little, I guess I used to think about them as extras.

你说即使精疲力竭，时间有限，那两次，我想我曾经把它们当作额外的东西。

I'm trying to start thinking about them as foundational.

我正在尝试开始将它们视为基础。

That's when they become really tough.

那是他们变得非常强硬的时候。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

It's when they matter the most, though.

不过，这是他们最重要的时候。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Because if you, it's like this toilet paper roll weighs 2,000 pounds.

因为如果你的话，这就像这个卫生纸卷重 2,000 磅。

There's no way I can get it to the garbage with this tire.

我不可能用这个轮胎把它扔进垃圾桶。

The days you don't want to work out, those are the most important days.

你不想锻炼的日子，正是最重要的日子。

Even if you do less, the mental victory there, in my mind at least, and I'm not an expert in any of this, far outweighs any of the physical aspect.

即使你做得更少，至少在我看来，精神上的胜利也远远超过了身体方面的任何胜利，而我不是这方面的专家。

It's the fact that you did and you didn't want to.

事实是你已经这么做了，但你并不想这么做。

If you stack that up over a lifetime, you're going to blow people away with what you can accomplish.

如果你把一生的时间积累起来，你就会以你所取得的成就让人们惊叹不已。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, and the generalizability of what you just described is Definitely supported by science.

是的，你刚才描述的普遍性绝对是有科学支持的。

People have perhaps heard me say this before, so I'll make it very brief, but there's this brain area, the anterior midcingulate cortex, which most neuroscientists that teach neuroanatomy, including me, didn't know what it did until a few years ago.

人们可能以前听过我说过这个，所以我会说得非常简短，但是有一个大脑区域，即前中扣带皮层，大多数教授神经解剖学的神经科学家，包括我，直到几年前才知道它的作用。

And a guy at Stanford, Jill Purvis, he's a neurosurgeon, he was stimulating this brain area and regions adjacent to it, looking for epileptiform foci in a patient.

斯坦福大学的吉尔·普维斯（Jill Purvis）是一名神经外科医生，他正在刺激这个大脑区域及其邻近区域，寻找患者体内的癫痫样病灶。

That's how they find out where to burn out the seizure site.

这就是他们如何找到烧毁癫痫发作部位的方法。

And he's stimulating in the cingulate cortex, and then he gets to this anterior midcingulate cortex.

他刺激扣带皮层，然后到达前中扣带皮层。

And in every patient where he taps this region electrically, the person feels and reports, "I feel like there's a storm coming, and I want to lean into it.

每一位用电击打这个区域的病人都会感觉到并报告说：“我感觉暴风雨即将来临，我想要迎向它。

I know I can go through it." Someone else might describe it as, "I feel like there's this big thing about to happen, but I'm going to persevere." So it's amazing, right?

我知道我能挺过去。”其他人可能会这样描述：“我感觉有一件大事即将发生，但我会坚持下去。”所以这很神奇，对吧？

So this anterior midcingulate cortex turns out hypertrophies.

所以前扣带皮层变得肥大。

Well, it grows in volume, maybe in number of connections, et cetera, number of neurons maybe, but certainly grows in volume when people successfully diet, when they take their existing exercise program and just add three 30-minute sessions of cardio.

嗯，它的体积会增加，也许是连接的数量，等等，也许是神经元的数量，但当人们成功节食，当他们采取现有的锻炼计划并只添加三个 30 分钟的有氧运动时，体积肯定会增加。

But here's the caveat.

但这里有一个警告。

If they hate cardio.

如果他们讨厌有氧运动。

If you love the ice bath, your anterior midcingulate cortex, which by the way predicts successful dieting, predicts successful completion of-

如果你喜欢冰浴，你的前中扣带皮层可以预测成功的节食，预测成功完成-

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

any of other hard things, all of that relates to whether or not the thing that you're introducing is something that you do not want to do in the moment that you do it.

任何其他困难的事情，所有这些都与您正在介绍的事情是否是您在做这件事时不想做的事情有关。

And so there's real science to this now.

所以现在这已经有了真正的科学依据。

There's a long review that I can put a link to in the caption if people want to get into the science.

如果人们想了解科学，我可以在标题中添加一个很长的评论链接。

So this is in human studies, and it goes just on and on.

这就是人类研究中的情况，而且这种情况一直在持续。

So it's not the thing, it's the thing you don't want to do.

所以这不是事情的问题，而是你不想做的事情。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And so when people say, "I love working out, and the final two reps of that set, that teaches me how to be hard in life." You're like, "Do you like working out?" They're like, "Love it." And you're like, "Ah, it's not doing anything for your anterior-

因此，当人们说“我喜欢锻炼，以及这组训练的最后两次时，这教会了我如何在生活中努力”。你会问：“你喜欢锻炼吗？”他们就像，“喜欢它。”你会说，“啊，这对你的前肌没有任何作用——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

At all

根本

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

midcingulate cortex."

中扣带皮层。”

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So I think this is very important science, which is why I keep bringing it up on multiple podcasts.

所以我认为这是非常重要的科学，这就是为什么我不断在多个播客上提到它。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I think the toilet paper roll.

我认为卫生纸卷。

So your kids have this amazing opportunity.

所以您的孩子有这个绝佳的机会。

Other people have to, I don't know, do whatever.

我不知道，其他人必须做任何事。

They seem like very hard-driving kids in the way you describe them anyway.

无论如何，按照你对他们的描述，他们似乎是非常努力的孩子。

So it turns out that for them, the toilet paper thing, and no, your dad didn't pay me to say this.

所以事实证明，对于他们来说，卫生纸的事情，不，你爸爸没有付钱让我说这个。

The toilet paper thing turns out to be the route to anterior midcingulate cortex growth, which then translates to...

事实证明，卫生纸是前扣带皮层生长的途径，然后转化为……

By the way, growth of this structure is the defining feature of what are called superagers.

顺便说一句，这种结构的增长是所谓的超级老人的定义特征。

Bit of a misnomer, because these are people who maintain cognitive ability and many of their physical abilities relative to their peers into their 80s and 90s.

有点用词不当，因为这些人在 80 岁和 90 岁的时候仍然保持着与同龄人相比的认知能力和许多身体能力。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

That makes sense.

这是有道理的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So it may even be related to the will to live.

所以这甚至可能与生存意愿有关。

It may be the tenacity structure in the brain, which people who successfully push back against certain life confrontations and things, and on and on.

这可能是大脑中的坚韧结构，人们能够成功地抵抗某些生活对抗和事物，等等。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So it's a pretty cool structure, and it may be the basis of the toilet paper phenomenon.

所以这是一个非常酷的结构，它可能是卫生纸现象的基础。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

It's the same thing as putting your dishes in the dishwasher when you're done, as opposed to just dropping them in the sink for the next morning.

这与用完后将碗碟放入洗碗机中，而不是第二天早上将它们放入水槽中是一样的。

The examples are everywhere.

这样的例子无处不在。

Not that that would ever happen in our house, but...

我们家不会发生这种事，但是……

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We're going to get back to the time perception piece, but you've mentioned jujitsu a few times.

我们将回到时间感知部分，但您多次提到柔术。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What's an aspect of jujitsu that, for you, is this thing, this friction point where you actually don't want to do?

对你来说，柔术的哪个方面是你实际上不想做的事情、这个摩擦点？

Or do you just love the whole thing?

或者你只是喜欢整件事？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

What I love about jujitsu is it can't be mastered.

我喜欢柔术的一点是它无法被掌握。

There's no way.

没办法啊

And I have been very fortunate enough now to train with people or be around them that have been black belts for damn near as long as I have been alive.

我现在非常幸运，能够和那些在我活着的时候就一直是黑带的人一起训练或者和他们在一起。

And I love asking them, what do they like about it?

我喜欢问他们，他们喜欢它什么？

And it's these seasons and phases where they think they have it figured out, and then they see something else, and their realization is they haven't even begun to understand.

正是在这些季节和阶段，他们认为自己已经弄清楚了，然后他们看到了其他东西，而他们意识到他们甚至还没有开始理解。

And so they build back up, and something again.

于是他们又重新建立起来，然后再做一些事情。

And the more experience these people have, the less they think that they have it all figured out.

这些人的经验越多，他们就越不认为自己已经解决了这一切。

And I don't know what the key to aging is, but I love doing things that seem as if it is impossible to master them.

我不知道衰老的关键是什么，但我喜欢做那些看似不可能掌握的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I think that's the key to staying at least mentally as young as possible, constantly learning new stuff.

我认为这是至少在心理上尽可能保持年轻、不断学习新东西的关键。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I would like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Joovv.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Joovv。

Joovv makes medical-grade red light therapy devices.

Joovv 生产医疗级红光治疗设备。

Now, if there's one thing that I have consistently emphasized on this podcast, it's the incredible impact that light can have on our biology and our health.

现在，如果我在这个播客中一直强调一件事，那就是光对我们的生物学和健康产生的令人难以置信的影响。

Now, in addition to sunlight, which I've talked about a lot on this podcast, red light, near-infrared, and infrared light have been specifically shown to have positive effects on improving numerous aspects of cellular and organ health.

现在，除了我在这个播客中多次谈论的阳光之外，红光、近红外光和红外光已被具体证明对改善细胞和器官健康的许多方面具有积极作用。

These include faster muscle recovery, improved skin health, wound healing, improvements in acne, reduced pain and inflammation, improved mitochondrial function, and even improvements in vision.

这些包括更快的肌肉恢复、改善皮肤健康、伤口愈合、改善痤疮、减少疼痛和炎症、改善线粒体功能，甚至改善视力。

Nowadays, there are a lot of red light devices out there, but what sets Joovv lights apart and why they're my preferred red light therapy device is that they use clinically proven wavelengths, meaning they use the specific wavelengths of red light, near-infrared, and infrared light in combination to trigger the optimal cellular adaptations.

如今，市面上有很多红光设备，但 Joovv 灯的与众不同之处以及它们成为我首选红光治疗设备的原因在于它们使用经过临床验证的波长，这意味着它们结合使用特定波长的红光、近红外光和红外光来触发最佳的细胞适应。

Personally, I use the Joovv whole body panel about three to four times a week, usually for about 10 to 20 minutes per session, and I use the Joovv handheld light both at home and when I travel.

就我个人而言，我每周使用 Joovv 全身面板大约三到四次，通常每次大约 10 到 20 分钟，并且我在家和旅行时都使用 Joovv 手持灯。

If you would like to try Joovv, they're offering up to $400 off select products for listeners of this podcast.

如果您想尝试 Joovv，他们将为该播客的听众提供精选产品高达 400 美元的折扣。

To learn more, visit Joovv, spelled J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman.

要了解更多信息，请访问 Joovv，拼写为 J-O-O-V-V，.com/huberman。

Again, that's J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman.

再说一次，这是 J-O-O-V-V，.com/huberman。

I seem to be referencing your book a lot, but there's a great story in your book about some intestinal distress that is not-

我似乎经常引用你的书，但你的书中有一个关于肠道不适的精彩故事，但不是-

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Is that what we're calling it?

这就是我们所说的吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

That is not of just the diarrhea, constipation type, but you described it as the worst pain-

那不仅仅是腹泻、便秘类型，而是你描述的最严重的疼痛——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

you'd ever experienced.

你曾经经历过。

Which, when most people hear a statement like that, they go, "Okay, well, what pain have you experienced?" Well-

当大多数人听到这样的说法时，他们会说：“好吧，你经历过什么痛苦？”嗯-

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Let's ask

我们来问问

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

turns out you've also been shot.

原来你也被枪杀了。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Turns out your job selection process involved a fair amount of immediate and long-term pain processes under limited sleep and so on.

事实证明，你的工作选择过程涉及到睡眠有限等情况下的大量即时和长期痛苦过程。

So we can check the box easily for you, like understands pain, and then this was the worst pain.

所以我们可以很容易地为你勾选这个框，就像理解痛苦一样，然后这是最严重的痛苦。

What do you think about this notion, maybe I heard this from Chad Wright, that when you vocalize about how hard something is That you make it more real.

你对这个概念有什么看法，也许我从查德·赖特那里听说过，当你大声说出某件事有多么困难时，你就会让它变得更加真实。

I was wondering if in that moment where you're in the hospital, I don't want to give it all away.

我想知道当你在医院的那一刻，我是否不想放弃一切。

It's a great chapter, actually.

事实上，这是一个很棒的章节。

And you're dealing with this worst pain of your life, not from being shot, but from the other thing.

而你正在面对一生中最严重的痛苦，不是因为被枪击，而是因为其他事情。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yep.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That were you just cursing?

你刚才是在骂人吗？

Were you quietly cursing in your head?

你是否在心里默默地咒骂过？

Do you think that we can make our physical pain and just challenges in general worse by talking about them?

你认为我们谈论身体上的疼痛和挑战是否会让它们变得更糟？

Or do you think holding it in makes it worse?

或者你认为坚持下去会让情况变得更糟？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I don't think you could make it worse by talking about it.

我认为谈论这件事不会让事情变得更糟。

I think if people were open and honest about, let's just say pain in general, whether that is internal or external, I think what they would be shocked to find is they're generally surrounded by people willing to do anything they can to help relieve that pain.

我认为，如果人们能够坦诚地对待，让我们只说一般的痛苦，无论是内部的还是外部的，我想他们会惊讶地发现，他们周围的人通常愿意尽一切努力来帮助减轻这种痛苦。

So I think you could probably make it much better.

所以我认为你可能可以做得更好。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

For anybody who thinks that I might have stuff figured out or I'm an intelligent person, here's a story for you.

对于任何认为我可能已经解决了问题或者我是一个聪明人的人，这里有一个故事给你。

Here's how stupid I am.

这就是我有多愚蠢。

So I was doing a podcast when I felt the first little shift in my stomach.

所以当我感觉到胃部第一次轻微的变化时，我正在做一个播客。

I took a sip of coffee.

我喝了一口咖啡。

I was like, "Huh, that's weird." And I thought it was a gas bubble.

我当时想，“哈，这很奇怪。”我以为那是一个气泡。

My wife was teaching a jujitsu seminar at the time.

我妻子当时正在教授柔术研讨会。

We were just south of Salt Lake City.

我们就在盐湖城以南。

So I got done with that.

所以我就完成了。

I couldn't really stand up straight, but it was the open mat portion, so throw the gi on, go roll for 90 minutes.

我无法真正站直，但这是开放式垫子部分，所以穿上道服，滚动 90 分钟。

Couldn't, definitely could not stand up straight after that, so I was just slouching in a chair, to try to hide it from my wife, who had, at that point, started looking over at me.

在那之后我不能，绝对不能站直，所以我只是无精打采地坐在椅子上，试图向我的妻子隐藏它，而她就在那时开始看着我。

And she was like, "What's going on?" I'm like, "I just got a stomachache.

她说：“发生了什么事？”我想，“我只是胃痛。

It's not that big of a deal." And we were going to drive from Salt Lake City back to Kalispell, Montana, where I live, which should take a day.

这没什么大不了的。”我们要从盐湖城开车回到我居住的蒙大拿州卡利斯佩尔，这应该需要一天的时间。

And she was saying, "Hey, let's get you some gas medicine or something like that." And she wanted to go to In-N-Out.

她说：“嘿，我们给你拿点瓦斯药或者类似的东西。”她想去 In-N-Out。

We don't have any In-N-Outs in Montana.

我们在蒙大拿州没有任何 In-N-Outs。

For people who live around In-N-Outs, I'm here to tell you, it's a really big thing to people who don't live around them.

对于居住在 In-N-Outs 周围的人们来说，我在这里告诉你们，对于不住在 In-N-Outs 周围的人们来说，这确实是一件大事。

I don't know why.

我不知道为什么。

I was raised-

我从小就长大——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In-N-Out's pretty darn good.

In-N-Out 非常好。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

I was raised by them-

我是他们养大的——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

...

or around them, so to me, not that big of a deal.

或在他们周围，所以对我来说，没什么大不了的。

I'll grab one when I can, but also not going to totally detour off to go get one.

我会尽可能地去买一个，但也不会完全绕道去买一个。

So she goes and gets her Double-Double, whatever it is, pulls into the Walgreens.

所以她去把她的双打车，不管是什么，都开进了沃尔格林。

I'm in the passenger seat at this point.

此时我坐在乘客座位上。

First off, she tricks me.

首先，她欺骗了我。

I drove her to the In-N-Out.

我开车送她去了In-N-Out。

She's like, "Just let me drive." And I'm like, "Fine." We get to the Walgreens.

她说：“让我开车吧。”我说：“好吧。”我们到达沃尔格林。

I'm in a good amount of pain at this point.

此时我感到非常痛苦。

She goes inside to get Gas-X pills or whatever.

她进去拿 Gas-X 药丸什么的。

She comes out.

她出来了。

I am upside down in my seat trying to relieve the gas bubble because that's what I thought it was.

我头朝下地坐在座位上，试图排出气泡，因为我就是这么想的。

So my head was down by where you keep your feet.

所以我的头低在你放脚的地方。

I didn't let her know I was-- So she comes back into the car and was like, "What are you doing?" Just fully inverted in the car.

我没有让她知道我在——所以她回到车里，问道：“你在做什么？”刚刚在车上完全倒立。

I'm like, "I'm fine.

我想，“我很好。

Just, I was just trying to see if I could get the gas bubble to dislodge." And she asked me, "What do you want to do?

只是，我只是想看看能否让气泡消失。”她问我：“你想做什么？

Do you need to go to the hospital?" I'm like, "I think we're going to be okay.

需要去医院吗？”我想，“我想我们会没事的。

Just start driving home.

刚开始开车回家。

We'll be going through Salt Lake, so we'll get to a higher level of care if it gets worse." She got onto the phone, Googled the nearest hospital, and drove me straight there.

我们将经过盐湖城，因此如果情况变得更糟，我们将获得更高水平的护理。”她拿起电话，在谷歌上搜索了最近的医院，然后开车送我直奔那里。

So that's how smart I am when it comes to pain.

这就是我在痛苦方面的聪明之处。

I wasn't verbalizing how bad it was.

我没有用语言描述事情有多糟糕。

And it was incrementally getting worse, but that's an example of, A, I 100% don't have anything figured out.

而且情况逐渐变得更糟，但这是一个例子，A，我 100% 没有弄清楚任何事情。

That's how dumb I am.

我就是这么笨。

And B, keeping it to myself didn't help much, but she knew me well enough that it was time to go.

而B，保守秘密并没有多大帮助，但她很了解我，所以是时候离开了。

I was able to walk into the emergency room, and then I ended up laying on the emergency room floor, mostly because it was cool, and I was starting to sweat at that point.

我能够走进急诊室，然后我最终躺在急诊室的地板上，主要是因为天气很冷，那时我开始出汗。

They bring me in and did a bunch of imaging, and I had an intestinal blockage, which required emergency surgery the next day.

他们带我进来并做了一系列成像检查，发现我患有肠道阻塞，需要第二天进行紧急手术。

The most painful portion of that, though, was about six hours when they gave me this fluid that you drink to constrict all of your intestines that they generally give to elderly people who haven't shit in weeks.

然而，其中最痛苦的部分是大约六个小时，当时他们给了我这种液体，你喝这种液体可以收缩你所有的肠道，他们通常给几周没有拉屎的老年人喝这种液体。

So what I ended up having is I had a loop of scar tissue on the inside wall of my stomach that a piece of intestines had gone through, and it cinched.

所以我最终得到的是我的胃内壁上有一个疤痕组织环，一段肠子穿过了它，并且它收紧了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

So that particular red juice of death was the single most consistent pain that I have ever been in.

所以那种特殊的红色死亡汁液是我经历过的最持续的痛苦。

Athletic sweat through all my clothing.

运动时的汗水浸湿了我所有的衣服。

My sister and I have a genetic blood abnormality where I don't process opiates the same way as people do.

我和姐姐患有遗传性血液异常，我不能像人们一样处理阿片类药物。

So morphine to me doesn't even do anything.

所以吗啡对我来说根本没有任何作用。

I did not know that until I got to the emergency room in Baghdad after being shot.

直到我中枪后前往巴格达急诊室时我才知道这一点。

And I kept asking for more morphine, and the guy pulled out a chart and said, "This is what you weigh.

我一直要求更多吗啡，那家伙拿出一张图表说：“这就是你的体重。

This is your dosage.

这是你的剂量。

You are now at the threshold.

你现在已经到了门槛。

If we give you more, your heart's going to stop." So they stopped the morphine, put me on Dilaudid, barely touching the pain at the maximum dosage of Dilaudid.

如果我们给你更多，你的心脏就会停止跳动。”所以他们停止了吗啡，给我开了二氢哌啶，在最大剂量的二氢哌啶几乎没有感觉到疼痛。

But that was the worst pain I've ever been in.

但这是我经历过的最痛苦的事情。

And it's funny that you ask about talking about it or not.

有趣的是你问是否要谈论它。

My sister is a nurse.

我姐姐是一名护士。

She's been in healthcare for quite some time.

她从事医疗保健工作已经有一段时间了。

And they had just gone on vacation.

而且他们刚刚去度假。

And my wife wanted to get ahold of them.

我的妻子想找到它们。

And I'm like, "Whatever you do, do not call them and ruin their vacation." What she was trying to do was understand what she needed to say to the staff so she could talk to them in their language because the dosages they were giving, it just wasn't doing anything.

我说，“无论你做什么，都不要打电话给他们，毁了他们的假期。”她想做的是了解她需要对工作人员说些什么，这样她就可以用他们的语言与他们交谈，因为他们给予的剂量，只是没有任何作用。

And I think to a degree, they thought I was seeking meds, even though I think the athletic sweat might've been a little bit of a tell.

我认为在某种程度上，他们认为我正在寻求药物，尽管我认为运动汗水可能已经说明了一些问题。

And the fact that I'm writhing, and the doctor's coming, I'm like, "I don't care what it is.

事实上，我在扭动，医生来了，我想，“我不在乎那是什么。

Cut it out right now.

立即把它剪掉。

We can just do surgery." He's like, "Oh, we've got to do imagery, and you've got to do paperwork." I'm like, "Sign my name.

我们只能做手术了。”他说，“哦，我们必须做图像，你必须做文书工作。”我说：“签上我的名字。

Let's just do the knock me out and cut this out of my body right now.

让我们现在就把我击晕，然后把它从我的身体里切掉。

I don't even care what's left." But I didn't even want to share that with my sister because I didn't want to ruin her experience with her family in another country, and that didn't make anything better.

我什至不在乎还剩下什么。”但我什至不想与姐姐分享这一点，因为我不想破坏她在另一个国家与家人的经历，但这并没有让任何事情变得更好。

Shortly after that, right after I told my wife not to call her, she went outside and called her, and then I got switched over to the ICU, where they hit me with ketamine, and that did the trick.

不久之后，就在我告诉我的妻子不要给她打电话后，她就出去打电话给她，然后我被转到重症监护室，他们用氯胺酮打我，结果就成功了。

Almost to the point where they almost pushed me into the K-hole, and I didn't like that at all.

几乎到了他们差点把我推进K洞的地步，我一点也不喜欢这样。

I could hear the hairs on the inside of my ears starting to move around.

我可以听到耳朵内侧的毛发开始移动。

And it was a dead quiet room, and I remember saying to my wife, "Can you hear it?

那是一个极其安静的房间，我记得对我的妻子说：“你能听到吗？

It's so loud in here." And she's like It is completely and utterly silent right at the lip, to the point where I told the doctor, "Please, no more ketamine, regardless of what it takes." But then they went and did the surgery.

这里太吵了。”她就像是在嘴边完全保持沉默，以至于我告诉医生，“拜托，不要再服用氯胺酮，无论需要什么。”但后来他们去做了手术。

All of that to say, the more open and honest I was, the better it got.

综上所述，我越开放和诚实，事情就越好。

In the time where I was trying to not share that or not talk about the pain, it was still just as real for me, but there was no benefit in being quiet like that.

当我试图不分享或不谈论痛苦时，它对我来说仍然是真实的，但那样安静没有任何好处。

And I think that that's something that people can...

我认为这是人们可以...

In my life, and I'm not sure yours, every time I verbalized pain or grief or struggle surrounded by people willing to help out, why not talk about it?

在我的生活中，我不确定你的生活，每当我在愿意提供帮助的人周围表达痛苦、悲伤或挣扎时，为什么不谈论它呢？

What's the potential downside, if you look at it purely from a physical perspective, was me suffering for a few more hours because I'm an idiot.

如果你纯粹从物理角度来看，潜在的缺点是什么？我会因为我是个白痴而多受几个小时的痛苦。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, I totally agree that when it's real pain, it's important to share.

嗯，我完全同意，当真正的痛苦时，分享很重要。

Also, God bless your wife for not listening to you around this particular issue.

另外，上帝保佑你的妻子在这个特定问题上没有听取你的意见。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

She's got me figured out.

她让我明白了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

It's everything up to a point.

一切都到了一定程度。

She's like, "Nope, we're going to go ahead and take the wheel from here."

她说：“不，我们要继续前进，从这里开始掌舵。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Well, it's like before we came in here, we were talking about dogs.

嗯，就像我们来这里之前，我们正在谈论狗。

We'll get back.

我们会回来的。

But having owned a bulldog mastiff, you realize that they hide their pain.

但拥有一只斗牛犬后，你就会意识到它们隐藏着痛苦。

Like he-

就像他——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

ran out two, they don't have knees, right?

跑出去两个，他们没有膝盖吧？

But he ran out two ACLs, right?

但他用完了两条 ACL，对吧？

He was his own worst enemy, but he would never quit on me either.

他是他自己最大的敌人，但他也永远不会放弃我。

So it's like-

所以这就像是——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

you kind of have to know that about bulldogs, right?

你一定对斗牛犬有所了解，对吧？

So there's enough bulldog in you.

所以你身上有足够的斗牛犬。

You have a dachshund.

你有一只腊肠犬。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

A wiener dog.

一只维也纳狗。

I know that they're very, very smart-

我知道他们非常非常聪明-

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

and they're kind of mischievous.

他们有点淘气。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right?

对吗？

But they're loyal.

但他们很忠诚。

Are they like-

他们是不是像——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Incr-

增量-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yes?

是吗？

Yeah

是啊

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

You are either one of their people-

你要么是他们的人之一——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

...

or you're one of their enemies.

或者你是他们的敌人之一。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is that you?

是你吗？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I'm probably his favorite person.

我大概是他最喜欢的人了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No, I meant is that your phenotype, too?

不，我的意思是，这也是你的表型吗？

Is that you're either one of my people or you're one of my enemies?

你要么是我的人民之一，要么是我的敌人之一？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I don't think so.

我不这么认为。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I am-

我是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, you don't strike me that way.

是的，你不会那样打动我。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I am inherently distrustful of human beings, just based off my own personal experience.

我本质上对人类不信任，只是基于我自己的个人经历。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

All human beings?

全人类？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Not all human beings.

并非所有人类。

Well, yes, the species.

嗯，是的，物种。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

But not every person that I meet.

但不是我遇到的每个人。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I am just aware-

我只是知道——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

...

that there is a subsection of who we are that is out there that ticks in the completely opposite manner with which I do, and I'm not here to say that's right or wrong, but I've seen it enough with my own eyes that I can never forget that.

我们是谁的一部分，在外面以与我完全相反的方式运作，我不是在这里说这是对还是错，但我亲眼所见，我永远不会忘记这一点。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You're talking about from your time on deployments?

你是在谈论你的部署时间吗？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Just seeing beliefs and ideologies that are completely at odds with what my beliefs and ideologies are, and sorry for anybody listening to this, whatever your belief and ideology is, there is an axis out there that feels that way.

只是看到与我的信仰和意识形态完全不一致的信仰和意识形态，并且对任何听这个的人感到抱歉，无论你的信仰和意识形态是什么，那里有一个轴有这种感觉。

That's just the way that it is.

事情就是这样。

It doesn't mean you should distrust everybody.

这并不意味着你应该不信任每个人。

I just remind myself that human beings are really capable of some gnarly stuff, but I also don't walk around snap-judging everybody.

我只是提醒自己，人类确实有能力做出一些棘手的事情，但我也不会到处草率地评判每个人。

I try to enjoy my life just like everybody else does.

我努力像其他人一样享受我的生活。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

But yeah, for that dog, you can go from being one of his enemies to one of his friends, though, if you have enough treats and spend enough time around him.

但是，是的，对于那只狗来说，如果你有足够的零食并花足够的时间在他身边，你可以从他的敌人之一变成他的朋友之一。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Then he gets super excited when he sees you.

然后当他看到你时他会变得非常兴奋。

But they're amazing dogs.

但它们是很棒的狗。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

I love dachshunds.

我喜欢腊肠犬。

I don't know that I have the tenacity to own one.

我不知道我是否有毅力拥有一个。

But because bulldogs are stubborn-

但因为斗牛犬很顽固——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

but they're so food-driven, and they're not that smart.

但他们太以食物为导向，而且他们并不那么聪明。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Don't tell them that.

别告诉他们这个。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I've had a bulldog long enough, and now a second one, to know that it's part of what makes them great.

我养一只斗牛犬已经够久了，现在又养了第二只，我知道这是它们伟大的部分原因。

They don't do advanced math on their life experience.

他们不会对自己的生活经历进行高等数学计算。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They're doing basic addition and sleeping.

他们正在做基本的加法并睡觉。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

We have to do-

我们必须做——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They'll die for you-

他们会为你而死——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

but if your life isn't on the line, they're not doing shit at all.

但如果你的生命没有受到威胁，他们根本就不会做任何事。

That's kind of like the bulldog.

这有点像斗牛犬。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Our dog does puzzles.

我们的狗会玩拼图。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

So right.

太对了。

That's what I'm talking about.

这就是我要说的。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

And like we have an outside fetch ball that I thought didn't fit through the doggy door.

就像我们有一个外部接球，我认为它无法穿过狗门。

It was in the house the other day.

前几天是在家里。

What's going on here?

这是怎么回事？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Totally.

完全。

Same species, completely different brain structures.

相同的物种，完全不同的大脑结构。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Man.

伙计。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Well, and they were bred to be independent because they were bred to be down in little tunnels, going for...

嗯，他们被培养成独立的，因为他们被培养成在小隧道里，去……

I tell people they were bred to fight lions.

我告诉人们它们是为了对抗狮子而培育的。

Nobody seems to believe me.

似乎没有人相信我。

And I'm also not sure that that's true, but-

我也不确定这是真的，但是-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You need 75 of them.

你需要 75 个。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah, like rats.

是的，就像老鼠一样。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

That's what I tell people.

这就是我告诉人们的。

They hunt in packs, obviously.

显然，它们成群狩猎。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I would be terrified if 75 wiener dogs chasing me down.

如果有 75 只维也纳狗追我，我会感到害怕。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

No, they're down in tunnels, and that's also why they bark so much and why their bark is so loud.

不，它们在隧道里，这也是它们叫得那么厉害、叫得那么大声的原因。

So it's their handlers could track them as they went.

所以他们的管理人员可以在他们行进时追踪他们。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

So a lot of that stuff makes sense, not necessarily in an urban setting, but-

所以很多东西都是有意义的，不一定在城市环境中，但是-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

...

it's fun to deal with.

处理起来很有趣。

Your dog needs to do puzzles or he'll drive you crazy.

你的狗需要做拼图，否则他会让你发疯的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Man, we could go down the conceptual rabbit hole of dog breeds, but we won't because we left an important plate spinning that I want to return to.

伙计，我们可以深入狗品种的概念兔子洞，但我们不会，因为我们留下了一个我想回到的重要板块。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

What'd we leave?

我们留下了什么？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This notion of time perception-

这种时间感知的概念——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

to navigate everyday life more effectively, and time perception to navigate the real, really hard stuff.

更有效地应对日常生活，并利用时间感知来应对真正困难的事情。

Your community, by virtue of the work that you guys did and do, loses a lot of people.

你们的社区，由于你们所做的工作，失去了很多人。

Relative to other professions, there's a-

相对于其他职业，有一个——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

there's a high fatality rate relative to other professions.

相对于其他职业来说，死亡率很高。

But in the larger outside world now, we are seeing much more suicide.

但现在在更大的外部世界，我们看到更多的自杀事件。

Let's just be real blunt.

让我们直言不讳吧。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Walking in here today, we were talking to one of our team members here, not SEAL team members, but editors that, somebody, a real luminary in the skateboarding world.

今天走进这里，我们正在与我们的一位团队成员交谈，不是海豹突击队的成员，而是编辑，某人，滑板界真正的杰出人物。

Cause of death still unclear, but there's yet another example of somebody highly accomplished, family, et cetera.

死因尚不清楚，但还有另一个例子，是某人的成就很高，家人等等。

I have a colleague who recently, sadly, took his own life.

我的一位同事最近不幸结束了自己的生命。

This just happens across domains, right?

这只是跨域发生的，对吗？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And it's not just men, it's women, too, but it does seem to be higher among men these days.

不仅男性如此，女性也如此，但现在男性的比例似乎更高。

It raises some really complicated, but I think important questions around what is going through people's minds that would lead them to think that it was or should be the end of the line for them.

它提出了一些非常复杂但我认为重要的问题，围绕着人们的想法，这些问题会让他们认为这已经是或应该是他们的末日。

For themselves.

为了他们自己。

Goes against every bit of adaptive evolutionary biology.

违背了适应性进化生物学的每一点。

It goes against all religious doctrine in terms of what's adaptive.

就适应性而言，它违背了所有宗教教义。

So, there's no straightforward answer to this.

所以，这个问题没有直接的答案。

But earlier, we were talking about, before we were recording, perhaps people get into a tunnel of the idea that the way they feel in a given moment is the way it's going to be forever.

但早些时候，我们谈到，在我们录制之前，也许人们会陷入这样的想法：他们在特定时刻的感受就是永远的方式。

So as two guys sitting here who are not in that state to-

因此，坐在这里的两个不处于那种状态的人——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

kind of wonder about that, we can only speculate.

对此有点好奇，我们只能推测。

But what do you think, based on what you've observed, and you're welcome to share if you like, this from your book, you talk about Dave.

但根据你的观察，你觉得怎么样，如果你愿意的话，欢迎分享，这来自你的书，你谈论戴夫。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is there any understanding of what's going on for people in the days, weeks, months, moments leading up to those decisions that maybe we can do some good here and help people identify if they are starting to enter that it's always going to feel like this mode?

是否有任何了解人们在几天、几周、几个月、导致做出决定之前发生的事情，也许我们可以在这里做一些好事，并帮助人们确定他们是否开始进入这种模式？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Man, there have been so many conversations about this, and there are so many programs that exist to try to help, I'll say guys, because that's the community that I came from with this.

伙计们，关于这个问题已经有很多对话了，而且有很多项目试图提供帮助，我想说的是，因为这就是我来自的社区。

The Green Beret community has now lost more people to suicide than combat operations since 2001.

自2001年以来，绿色贝雷帽社区因自杀而丧生的人数比在战斗中丧生的人数还要多。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What?

什么？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yep.

是的。

I don't know where the SEAL community is with that, but I bet you they're close.

我不知道海豹突击队的情况如何，但我敢打赌他们很接近。

The numbers will eclipse, for sure.

毫无疑问，这些数字将会黯然失色。

So it is an issue.

所以这是一个问题。

It is an unavoidable issue.

这是一个无法回避的问题。

Every situation is different to a degree, but they share some similarities.

每种情况都有一定程度的不同，但也有一些相似之处。

So in speaking specifically of the SEAL teams, there's the biggest similarity, right?

所以具体来说海豹突击队，有最大的相似之处，对吗？

They came from that community, and they probably had some semblance of shared experiences, whether that be deployments, time away from family, the psychological and physiological stresses of the job.

他们来自那个社区，他们可能有一些相似的共同经历，无论是部署、远离家人的时间、工作的心理和生理压力。

But it doesn't seem to impact everybody equally either.

但它似乎也没有对每个人产生同等的影响。

Everybody's experiences differ.

每个人的经历都不同。

You could be in a room, I was going to say with six people, but it's unlikely you'll be in a room with six people just because we don't generally have that many people, and we try to solve issues with as few as possible.

我想说的是，你可以在一个有六个人的房间里，但你不太可能在一个有六个人的房间里，因为我们通常没有那么多人，而且我们试图用尽可能少的人来解决问题。

But let's say four.

但我们说四个。

I have no understanding why the same shared experience, although maybe viewed from a slightly different angle, in totality could break somebody but not the other three, or why everybody has a different volume of, somebody's got this much volume versus this much, versus a thimble.

我不明白为什么相同的共同经历，尽管可能从稍微不同的角度来看，总体上可能会破坏某人而不是其他三个，或者为什么每个人都有不同的体积，有人有这么多的体积与这么多，与顶针。

And I don't understand why those experiences seem to break some people, or in my opinion, I think they can, if you put the work in, make you an even better version of yourself.

我不明白为什么这些经历似乎会让一些人崩溃，或者在我看来，我认为如果你投入工作，它们可以让你成为一个更好的自己。

And I also think that you can pour some of the stuff out or drill a hole in the bottom and work through these things.

我还认为你可以倒出一些东西或者在底部钻一个洞来解决这些问题。

Dave being the example.

戴夫就是一个例子。

The things that stick out would be, and again, this is me speaking, I can't speak for Dave.

突出的事情是，再说一次，这是我在说话，我不能代表戴夫说话。

There was a huge delta, I think, between how he thought of himself and how other people thought of him.

我认为，他对自己的看法和其他人对他的看法之间存在着巨大的差异。

And in most of the funerals that I've gone to that involve suicide, the number one question is, why?

在我参加过的大多数葬礼中，最重要的问题是，为什么？

Why didn't somebody reach out for help?

为什么没有人伸出援手？

And maybe they did, because you don't-- I guess you could look at their electronic device or maybe it was a face-to-face.

也许他们这样做了，因为你没有——我想你可以看看他们的电子设备，或者也许是面对面的。

It's hard to say.

很难说。

But the difference in what Dave left behind, he left behind some journals.

但戴夫留下的不同之处在于，他留下了一些日记。

And I think that there are pros and cons.

我认为有利有弊。

If you are in a place where you have the opportunity to read somebody, what they have left behind and not, you may not want to know.

如果你在一个地方，你有机会阅读某人，他们留下了什么，没有留下什么，你可能不想知道。

It may make it more difficult because I've also seen people attach a very immense amount of grief because they either think that what was written and left behind was specifically about them, or they, "Oh, man, I was there and I could have." The could've, would've, should've, which is all hypothetical and doesn't change the fact that it already happened.

这可能会让事情变得更加困难，因为我也看到人们附加了非常巨大的悲伤，因为他们要么认为所写和留下的内容是专门关于他们的，要么他们，“哦，伙计，我在那里，我本来可以。” “本来可以”、“本来应该”、“应该”，这些都是假设的，并不能改变它已经发生的事实。

But I've seen people deeply, deeply struggle with that.

但我看到人们为此深深地挣扎。

So that would be the negative.

所以这将是负面的。

The pro could be perhaps, I don't know, closure.

我不知道，优点可能是关闭。

So it really depends on the person.

所以这真的取决于人。

Choose wisely, as somebody who has experienced that.

作为经历过这种情况的人，请明智地选择。

My experience is it was a combination of both.

我的经验是，这是两者的结合。

I felt a deeper level of understanding, but also a deep sense I wish I would've done more.

我感受到了更深层次的理解，但也深深地感觉到我希望自己能做得更多。

The internal struggles and self-talk and monologue, I couldn't read it without crying.

内心的挣扎、自言自语、独白，读起来不哭不笑。

And I don't think he realized how highly other people thought of him.

我认为他没有意识到其他人对他的评价有多高。

The gap between the two is just unbelievable.

两者之间的差距简直令人难以置信。

He, and not everybody is, he was isolated at the time.

他（并非所有人）当时是孤立的。

There was alcohol involved to the best of my knowledge, which unfortunately, especially in the community that I come from, those two things are pretty often tied, not always, but often tied to alcohol and that decision as well.

据我所知，酒精涉及其中，不幸的是，特别是在我来自的社区，这两件事经常联系在一起，并非总是如此，但经常与酒精和那个决定联系在一起。

And the stats are pretty well back about the alcohol being, you could speak to this, the central nervous system depressant.

It's not like, "Yay, I'm feeling the best I've ever felt." It generally will spiral you in the other direction.

这并不是说，“是的，我现在感觉是有史以来最好的。”它通常会让你朝另一个方向螺旋。

But when I look at Dave, he was and is to this day what I would consider to be the standard for a team guy.

但当我看到戴夫时，他过去是、现在仍然是我认为的团队成员的标准。

And what I loved about him so much is that not only did he expect that standard from other people, but he held it himself.

我非常喜欢他的一点是，他不仅期望别人遵守这个标准，而且他自己也坚持这个标准。

And actually more than that.

实际上还不止这些。

I think I would say he held himself to a higher standard than he would hold other people to.

我想我会说他对自己的要求比对其他人的要求更高。

If you met his standard, you were going to get two thumbs up.

如果你达到了他的标准，你就会竖起两个大拇指。

Probably not a pat on the back, but you were going to get two thumbs up, and you were going to know you did a good job.

可能不是一种表扬，但你会得到两个竖起大拇指，你就会知道你做得很好。

If you did not meet his standard, which I tested many times, you were very specifically told where you're deficient in life and as a human being.

如果你没有达到他的标准，我多次测试过这个标准，你就会被非常明确地告知你在生活和做人方面的不足之处。

And he, God, he had a tongue like a whip.

而他，上帝，他的舌头就像鞭子一样。

He was awesome.

他太棒了。

And I think at the end, and this is me speaking for him a little bit, I think he arrived at a place where he couldn't live with the reality that he couldn't hold himself to the standard that he had expected from other people, and I think it destroyed him.

我想最后，这是我为他说话的一点，我认为他到达了一个他无法接受现实的地步，他无法让自己达到他对其他人的期望标准，我认为这摧毁了他。

But I don't know if he shared that with anybody.

但我不知道他是否与任何人分享过这一点。

I don't think so.

我不这么认为。

Some of the last people that he spoke with knew that he was struggling, for sure.

最后与他交谈的一些人肯定知道他正在挣扎。

He had an alcohol addiction issue, for sure.

他肯定有酒精成瘾的问题。

And for clarity, Dave would be pissed, actually, if I didn't mention that, because he would never tolerate anybody else beating around the bush.

He legitimately had an issue with alcohol, as some people do from that community.

他确实有酗酒问题，就像该社区的一些人一样。

They knew that he was struggling.

他们知道他正在挣扎。

He's the only guy I know who did multiple treatments of, I have zero experience in psychedelics, but from listening to people talk about Ayahuasca and Ibogaine, rides that don't seem to be a very good time, and oftentimes will instantaneously change the relationship they have with substances, whether it's opiates or alcohol.

他是我认识的唯一一个做过多种治疗的人，我对迷幻药的经验为零，但从听人们谈论死藤水和伊博加因来看，这些游乐设施似乎不是一个很好的时机，而且往往会立即改变他们与物质的关系，无论是阿片类药物还是酒精。

Not that you would never drink again, but their relationship with it just shifts.

并不是说你永远不会再喝酒，但他们与喝酒的关系只是发生了变化。

They're like, "You know what?

他们就像，“你知道吗？

Ugh, I don't even have the desire to do so." 72 hours later, 96 hours later.

呃，我连这样做的欲望都没有。” 72小时后，96小时后。

And it's not like he just tried once.

而且他又不只尝试过一次。

He would go back.

他会回去的。

He would even facilitate treatment for other people.

他甚至会为其他人的治疗提供便利。

But it wasn't working for him.

但这对他不起作用。

But he wasn't sharing that.

但他并没有分享这一点。

And that isolation and loneliness and that difference between that standard and what he was able to do got him to that place where he put a gun in his mouth alone, isolated at his family home in Florida.

这种孤立和孤独，以及标准与他能够做的事情之间的差异，让他独自把枪放在嘴里，在佛罗里达州的家中与世隔绝。

And when everybody showed up at the funeral, it's like, what could we have done more?

Nobody's at a funeral saying, "Ah, did everything I could." Never have heard that, by the way.

Nobody's at a funeral saying, "Ah, did everything I could."顺便说一句，从来没有听说过。

They're just, "God, I nailed it." I'm like, really?

他们只是说，“天啊，我成功了。”我想，真的吗？

Exhibit A, none of us nailed it.

证据A，我们都没有成功。

We all fucked up.

我们都搞砸了。

Or did we do the best that we could and it's something that we can't stop?

还是我们已经尽力而为却无法阻止？

I don't know.

我不知道。

I've started to have pretty deep conversations with friends from that community around what can be done.

我已经开始与该社区的朋友就可以做什么进行深入的对话。

I don't think an absolutionist approach is good.

我不认为绝对主义的做法是好的。

I think driving it to zero is impossible because it's an affliction that strikes all of humanity.

我认为将其降至零是不可能的，因为这是一种困扰全人类的痛苦。

A reductionist approach, I think, is helpful.

我认为还原论方法是有帮助的。

But at this point, I don't know what else can be done.

但此时此刻，我不知道还能做什么。

Millions of dollars advocated towards these type of programs.

为此类计划投入了数百万美元。

Things like Ambio, just south of the border, or what Marcus and Amber Capone are doing with the vets, which are largely an interface to that.

像边境以南的安比奥（Ambio）之类的事情，或者马库斯和安布尔·卡彭（Marcus Capone）与兽医一起做的事情，这在很大程度上是一个接口。

And there's portals and people, and I'm on some of these groups where even the inkling somebody is in trouble or you need help, people are there trying to get stuff done, getting connected.

还有门户网站和人员，我加入了其中一些团体，即使有人有麻烦或您需要帮助，人们也会在那里尝试完成工作，建立联系。

People are getting on airplanes.

人们正在乘飞机。

And I was with mutual friend DJ, I think it was last week, and one of his new guys who had become a team leader who had gotten out just killed himself.

我和我们共同的朋友 DJ 在一起，我想是上周，他的一个新人已经成为团队领导，但他自杀了。

And we sit there with faces like this with things that we don't know what to say in between us.

我们坐在那儿，脸上都是这样的表情，我们之间不知道该说些什么。

I don't know.

我不知道。

I don't know what's going on there.

我不知道那里发生了什么事。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Well, I certainly don't know either.

嗯，我当然也不知道。

I think that if we can borrow anything useful from other areas of mental health and neuroscience, because I think ultimately this is a brain issue.

我认为我们是否可以从心理健康和神经科学的其他领域借用任何有用的东西，因为我认为归根结底这是一个大脑问题。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right?

对吗？

I don't think it's like a gut health issue, although that could impact it, right?

我不认为这像是肠道健康问题，尽管这可能会影响它，对吗？

I might be wrong.

我可能错了。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Could be corollary.

可能是推论。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

It could be, but I think it's a thought process that leads to a decision that-

有可能，但我认为这是一个思考过程，导致做出这样的决定——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

and that's in the brain.

那是在大脑中。

So if we were to just start at ground truths, not to try and make this reductionist, we'd say maybe suicidality is not one thing.

因此，如果我们只是从基本事实开始，而不是试图使这种简化论，我们会说自杀也许不是一回事。

Just like we know that you can get a fever from a lot of things.

就像我们知道很多事情都会导致发烧一样。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I don't want to say no one is immune, because I do think that fortunately, it's not everybody, but maybe everyone has the potential to go there, and there's certain buffers that we're not aware of.

我不想说没有人能幸免，因为我确实认为幸运的是，不是每个人都能幸免，但也许每个人都有潜力去那里，而且有一些我们没有意识到的缓冲。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

You might come out of the box immune to it, but I think either something psychologically or physiologically can happen that maybe could open a door that had started off closed.

你可能会从盒子里出来，对它免疫，但我认为心理或生理上可能会发生一些事情，也许可以打开一扇本来关闭的门。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

That's a guess.

这是一个猜测。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In all these instances that are leaping to mind of, unfortunately, real-life suicides, every single one of the people was a very high performer at one point.

不幸的是，在所有这些令人想起现实生活中自杀的例子中，每个人都曾一度表现非常出色。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Very highly regarded.

非常受高度重视。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Revered, et cetera.

受人尊敬等等。

And so I think you've really touched on something important, which is that this notion of it's lonely at the top.

所以我认为你确实触及了一些重要的事情，那就是“高处不胜寒”的观念。

It's true that people are busy.

确实，人们很忙。

The general public is not so concerned about winners and their plight.

公众并不那么关心获胜者和他们的困境。

But when you hear about something like this, you realize that people can be quite lonely, and perhaps as the number of true peers that somebody has, because they're in a leadership position over already ultra-high performers-

但当你听到这样的事情时，你会意识到人们可能非常孤独，也许是因为某人拥有真正的同龄人的数量，因为他们比已经表现出色的人处于领导地位——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

the need to impress, the need to not have their image shattered, it goes up and up and up and up.

需要给人留下深刻的印象，需要不让自己的形象被破坏，它会不断上升，不断上升，不断上升。

There might be something there.

那里可能有什么东西。

I think there's certainly important work to be done, but there aren't real data, I don't think, on the number of people who were kind of veering in this direction, but somebody reached out.

我认为确实有重要的工作要做，但我认为没有真正的数据表明有多少人转向这个方向，但有人伸出了援手。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And then they're six months later saying, "Hey, thanks.

六个月后他们说：“嘿，谢谢。

You really helped me back when," and maybe they weren't right at that edge.

你真的帮助了我，”也许他们并不处于那个边缘。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So we don't have data on what worked to keep people away from this edge either.

因此，我们也没有关于如何让人们远离这一边缘的数据。

So it's a really tough problem.

所以这是一个非常棘手的问题。

But tough problems are tractable.

但棘手的问题是可以解决的。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

I worry less about the guys who are able to verbalize what they're going through.

我不太担心那些能够用语言表达自己正在经历的事情的人。

It's the ones who are more quiet.

正是那些比较安静的人。

You talk about lonely at the top.

你谈论的是在高处的孤独。

I left Dave's military career largely out of it.

我基本上没有提及戴夫的军事生涯。

He originally wanted to go to Development Group and didn't make it through the screening process, I think largely more due to a personality conflict with one of the instructors, which totally happens.

他原本想去发展组，但没有通过筛选过程，我认为很大程度上是由于与其中一位导师的性格冲突，这完全是发生的。

You get on somebody's radar, you might have to come back through.

你引起了某人的注意，你可能不得不回来。

But he ended up going to another JSOC command that works at an incredibly high level, very less known, oftentimes by yourself in adversarial countries, and he crushed it there, I think for 10 years.

但他最终去了另一个联合特种作战司令部，该司令部的工作水平非常高，但鲜为人知，经常独自一人在敌对国家，我想他在那里干掉了十年。

He's like the top performer of performers.

他就像表演者中的顶尖表演者。

And then they contracted him to come back and teach guys in their own very long selection course.

What I didn't realize is how much he was struggling just holding up that image, though.

但我没有意识到，他只是为了举起这张照片而付出了多大的努力。

A part of their selection course occurs out in Las Vegas.

He had more than one incident where he thought his career was going to be over because he went out and got shit-faced and got arrested.

They work so independently and individually so often, nobody even realized he had gotten in trouble until his security clearance came back around and it popped on his security clearance, which then leads to a whole variety of other things.

他们经常如此独立和单独地工作，甚至没有人意识到他遇到了麻烦，直到他的安全许可回来并且它突然出现在他的安全许可上，然后导致了各种各样的其他事情。

But that happened to him while he was active, and then after, while he was out.

But if you were to look at the guy, you'd say to him, "How do I match your career exactly?

但如果你看着这个人，你会对他说：“我怎样才能与你的职业生涯完全匹配？

What exactly are you doing to be able to do what it is that you're doing?" Man, behind the curtain, holy shit.

What exactly are you doing to be able to do what it is that you're doing?"伙计，在幕布后面，天啊。

Just suffering.

只是受苦而已。

You could see it in the writing, just in the shape and texture of the words.

你可以在写作中看到它，只是在单词的形状和纹理中。

You could see it degrading towards the end.

你可以看到它在最后逐渐退化。

It's gnarly.

很粗糙。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And look, I'm not one of these people that thinks everyone should just go do ibogaine, which is not a recreational-

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

He tried it

他尝试过

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

experience.

经验。

Right.

正确的。

But I was going to say, the fact that he did-

但我想说的是，事实上他确实——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

that has worked.

这已经奏效了。

I'll just say this on, I've said it publicly before, but I'll make sure I hammer this, straight in the middle, that I've been very supportive of veteran solutions because-

我只想说这一点，我以前曾公开说过，但我会确保我在中间强调这一点，我一直非常支持经验丰富的解决方案，因为-

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

and the work that was being done at Stanford to support them.

以及斯坦福大学为支持他们所做的工作。

The arc of both successful escape from addiction and PTSD, whatever you want to call it, through the proper use of ibogaine, medically supervised, as well as the number of just tragic instances of people who didn't make it there.

通过在医疗监督下正确使用伊博加因，成功摆脱毒瘾和创伤后应激障碍（无论你想怎么称呼它）的弧线，以及未能成功逃脱的悲惨实例的数量。

I happen to know Chad Wilkinson's-

我碰巧知道查德·威尔金森的-

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

wife and talked to Sarah.

妻子并与莎拉交谈。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Sarah, yeah.

莎拉，是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And it's a painful thing to be at these things and hear all these wonderful stories of people that feel like they were rescued, their spouse was rescued, and then the spouses that are there saying, "I'm grateful this exists, and I'm frustrated that it wasn't there in time-

目睹这些事情并听到所有这些精彩的故事是一件痛苦的事情，人们感觉自己被拯救了，他们的配偶也被拯救了，然后在场的配偶说：“我很感激这个存在，但我很沮丧它没有及时出现 -

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

for their spouse or parent or kid." So many people have benefited, but some people just seem like they're refractory to it.

为了他们的配偶、父母或孩子。”很多人受益，但有些人似乎对此很抗拒。

Well, hopefully, talking about suicide frankly will get people thinking about different avenues around it.

好吧，希望坦白谈论自杀能够让人们思考不同的途径。

That's the hope.

这就是希望。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah, I don't know the angle.

是的，我不知道角度。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I've tried to focus sometimes on talking about the impact that it has on those left behind in the hopes that that would, I don't know, buy somebody a 1%, maybe think about that for 1% and it changes literally the trajectory of their life.

有时我试图集中精力谈论它对那些留下来的人的影响，希望这会（我不知道）为某人购买 1%，也许考虑一下 1%，它确实改变了他们的生活轨迹。

I don't understand the choice.

我不明白这个选择。

I will describe the choice of ending your own life as an irrational decision.

我将结束自己生命的选择描述为一个非理性的决定。

I can't make any sense of it other than to say, like you said, it goes against every evolutionary everything that we can understand.

我无法理解它的任何意义，只能说，就像你说的，它违背了我们能理解的每一个进化论。

So somehow, people are arriving at an irrational decision and considering it to be the only rational solution.

因此，不知何故，人们做出了非理性的决定，并认为这是唯一理性的解决方案。

Talking about the people that they left behind and the impact it's going to have doesn't seem to have impacted it at all.

谈论他们留下的人以及它将产生的影响似乎根本没有影响到它。

I don't know what the answer is.

我不知道答案是什么。

Many times, whatever's left behind are text messages, the world's better off.

很多时候，留下的都是短信，世界会变得更好。

You know what I mean?

你知道我的意思？

Better off without me.

没有我过得更好。

I'm not going to say they feel as if they're doing the world a favor.

我不会说他们觉得自己在帮世界一个忙。

That's not what I mean to say, but oftentimes the language is close to that, like, "I am doing this because you will be better off without me." And again, irrational decision as their only rational option.

这不是我想说的，但通常这种语言很接近，比如“我这样做是因为没有我你会过得更好。”再次，非理性的决定是他们唯一的理性选择。

Dude, I don't know.

伙计，我不知道。

I do know that statistically it's way higher in the occupation that I came from.

我确实知道，从统计数据来看，我所在的职业的这一比例要高得多。

What I didn't realize and what I've started talking with a lot more about guys I served with is their time before the military, though.

然而，我没有意识到的是，我开始与更多关于与我一起服役的人谈论的是他们在入伍之前的时光。

The trauma in the military can certainly be unique.

军队中的创伤肯定是独一无二的。

But I tell you what, the number of guys that I've talked to now that I didn't have these conversations with when I was in, they brought a full seabag of trauma with them before.

但我告诉你，我现在和很多人交谈过，而我在里面的时候没有和他们交谈过，他们以前带来了满满的创伤。

And if you layer that on top of everything that happens while you're in, and you don't get a handle on that, it's going to get a handle on you, and I think that's played itself out many times.

如果你把它放在你身处其中时发生的所有事情之上，而你无法控制它，它就会控制你，我认为这种情况已经发生过很多次了。

A lot of the emphasis is on just the military aspect, and I'm not saying that everybody from the military world came in with a broken, shattered, fill in the blank bucket of trauma, but there's a lot of them, the more that you dig into this, and that has to be addressed as well, too.

很多重点都集中在军事方面，我并不是说来自军事界的每个人都带着破碎的、粉碎的、填补空白的创伤桶，但是有很多这样的创伤，你越深入地研究这个问题，这也必须得到解决。

And it makes sense.

这是有道理的。

If you had a jacked-up childhood or you were bullied, what better job than to be able to dispatch bullies or those that are preying upon others?

如果你有一个被欺负的童年或者你被欺负，还有什么比能够消灭恶霸或那些掠夺他人的人更好的工作呢？

Yeah.

是的。

That's exactly what you're going to want to do.

这正是您想要做的。

But that doesn't mean that the little suitcase you brought with you isn't going to meet you on the tail end of that journey.

但这并不意味着您随身携带的小手提箱不会在旅程的最后与您见面。

Then you pair that with isolation.

然后将其与隔离配对。

A lot of times guys get out, they'll move back to where they came from, so away from their social circle.

很多时候，男人离开后，他们会回到原来的地方，远离他们的社交圈。

The uniform goes up in the closet.

制服放在衣柜里。

Identity and purpose struggle that we all have when you go from that occupation.

当你离开那个职业时，我们都会经历身份和目标的斗争。

Social isolation.

社交隔离。

Maybe they bring with them some unhealthy social habits, alcohol, whatever else it may be with them, with that isolation, with those struggles, with that baggage.

也许他们带来了一些不健康的社交习惯，酒精，或者其他任何东西，带着那种孤立，带着那些挣扎，带着那些包袱。

It's a lot, man.

太多了，伙计。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You make a very important point.

你提出了一个非常重要的观点。

I think perhaps one of the reasons they went into that profession is they were traumatized going in.

我认为也许他们进入这个职业的原因之一是他们在进入这个行业时受到了创伤。

But of course, as you also pointed out, many guys are not.

They-

他们——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I won the genetic lottery with my parents.

我和父母一起中了基因彩票。

They were spectacular.

他们非常壮观。

But now, I wish I had been mature enough to sit down with people when I was young and be like, "Dude, are you okay?

但现在，我希望自己已经足够成熟，可以在年轻时与人坐下来，说：“伙计，你还好吗？

What was your background coming up?

你的背景是什么？

Tell me about your life before the teams." Because nobody ever asks about your life.

告诉我你在球队之前的生活。”因为从来没有人询问过你的生活。

They're like, "Where are you from?

他们就像，“你从哪里来？

Cool.

酷。

Shut up.

闭嘴。

Did you make it through BUD/S?

你通过了BUD/S吗？

Great.

太棒了。

Go get your shit.

去拿你的屎吧。

It's time to go do gangster shit." I'm like, "Okay, cool.

是时候去干黑帮的事了。”我想，“好吧，酷。

Let's go do gangster shit." It's afterwards where I get to know these people better at a deeper level.

我们去干黑帮的事吧。”后来我对这些人有了更深入的了解。

I'm like, "I'm sorry, what?

我说：“对不起，什么？

What situation did you come from?" Dave was a good example.

你是从什么情况来的？”戴夫就是一个很好的例子。

He brought a lot with him.

他带来了很多东西。

Again, that's a data point.

再说一遍，这是一个数据点。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I can't apply that broadly, but in the anecdotal conversations I have had, it is trending past 50% of the guys brought a lot of stuff with them.

我不能广泛应用这一点，但在我进行的轶事对话中，有超过 50% 的人随身携带了很多东西。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, and the hyper proclivity for alcohol might have been related to that.

是的，过度饮酒可能与此有关。

We can do a just so story, but what you're saying, it ratchets together in a logical way.

我们可以写一个这样的故事，但你所说的，它以合乎逻辑的方式衔接在一起。

And of course, everything we're talking about wicks out to the world at large.

当然，我们谈论的一切都会影响到整个世界。

Checking in on people is no small thing.

检查人员不是一件小事。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

A few years ago, I talked about how this group of people will just check in in the morning, and it seemed people were like, "Oh, well, that's supposed to be the health act." It's like, I don't know.

几年前，我谈到这群人如何在早上登记入住，人们似乎会说，“哦，好吧，这应该是健康法案。”就像，我不知道。

There's one guy in my crew, every single morning, if we don't hear from him by 8:00 a.m.- ...

我的团队里有一个人，每天早上，如果我们在上午 8:00 之前没有收到他的消息-...

we're like, "He's dead." And then at 8:15, he's like, "Sorry I'm late, guys."

我们就像，“他死了。”然后在 8 点 15 分，他说：“抱歉，我迟到了，伙计们。”

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And just by virtue of that group, he sends out-

而仅仅凭借那群人，他就发出——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

a little Bible passage, sometimes a wish for the day for folks.

一小段圣经，有时是人们对这一天的愿望。

Everyone checks in.

每个人都签到。

It's a real thing.

这是真实的事情。

It's a real thing.

这是真实的事情。

And it's not just that I would be worried about him.

Honestly, I'd be worried about me if he didn't send that.

老实说，如果他不发送的话我会担心我。

Now, am I completely dependent on it?

现在，我完全依赖它了吗？

No. But those small things, back to this notion of small things, they can really matter.

不。但那些小事，回到小事的概念，它们确实很重要。

They can really make the difference.

他们确实可以发挥作用。

I don't know.

我不知道。

My mind goes to all these places, and maybe I've spent more than my fair share of time with our mutual friend, Eddie Penny.

我的思绪飞向所有这些地方，也许我和我们共同的朋友埃迪·佩尼在一起度过的时间超过了我应有的时间。

And forgive me, because I'm a scientist, but these days, I talk very openly.

请原谅我，因为我是一名科学家，但现在我的言论非常公开。

I actually think that evil forces can hijack people's minds.

我其实认为邪恶势力可以劫持人心。

I know it sounds crazy.

我知道这听起来很疯狂。

It sounds like conspiracy, but I believe that inside of our minds, we have a susceptibility to positive messaging-

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

and we have a susceptibility to evil messaging, and it can come in in different forms.

我们很容易受到邪恶信息的影响，而且它可以以不同的形式出现。

And I think bad forces can work through us, and they tend to come through the places of shame.

我认为邪恶的力量可以通过我们发挥作用，而且它们往往来自羞耻的地方。

They come through the things that we don't want to acknowledge.

The way it was described to me by someone far smarter than me is it's like a lighthouse that's spinning its illumination, and then there's some dirt on the lighthouse, and it casts this shard of a shadow, and that's where stuff comes in and gets us.

比我聪明得多的人向我描述它的方式是，它就像一座正在旋转照明的灯塔，然后灯塔上有一些污垢，它投射出阴影碎片，这就是东西进来并吸引我们的地方。

And if we can see that stuff and really acknowledge it, that's what the real trauma healing process is about.

如果我们能够看到这些东西并真正承认它，那就是真正的创伤治愈过程。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And once you own it, it's very different.

一旦你拥有它，一切都会变得非常不同。

Things can't get to you the same way.

事情不会以同样的方式降临到你身上。

Now, I'm speaking in riddles and metaphors here.

现在，我在这里用谜语和比喻来说话。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And so I want to be careful because I'm a scientist.

所以我要小心，因为我是一名科学家。

I believe in biology, but I think that hopefully conversations like these will start to open up the thought and maybe in the dialogue around this, because I think the mental health community, but really the general public needs to start thinking about this-

我相信生物学，但我认为希望这样的对话能够开始打开思路，也许在围绕此的对话中，因为我认为心理健康界，但实际上普通公众需要开始思考这个问题 -

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

in a real way.

以真正的方式。

Because the numbers, as you mentioned, the SEAL teams and other special operations communities are staggering, but it's growing, and on and on.

因为正如你所提到的，海豹突击队和其他特种作战团体的数字是惊人的，但它正在不断增长，而且还在不断增长。

And I don't believe anyone is completely immune, just given the examples.

我不相信任何人都可以完全免疫，仅举几个例子。

These are people who had, quote-unquote, "everything going for them"-

这些人，毫不夸张地说，“一切都对他们有利”——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

and then some.

然后是一些。

So God willing-

所以上帝愿意——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

this will have some positive impact.

这将会产生一些积极的影响。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I think it's important that somebody like yourself as a scientist is open to other non-scientific answers or possibilities, at least, because we clearly don't have it figured all out yet, that I'm not a scientist, but I'm pretty sure scientists don't know everything, regardless of how some of them might like to tell you that they do.

我认为像你这样的科学家对其他非科学答案或可能性持开放态度是很重要的，至少，因为我们显然还没有完全弄清楚，我不是科学家，但我很确定科学家并不知道一切，无论他们中的一些人如何告诉你他们知道。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They definitely do not know everything.

他们肯定不知道一切。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

And if we don't know everything, maybe let's just keep it open to possibilities, because in that journey, hopefully one day we will figure out everything.

如果我们不知道一切，也许让我们对可能性保持开放的态度，因为在这段旅程中，希望有一天我们能弄清楚一切。

But if we lose a bunch of people along the way because we were unwilling to at least even table a conversation about something maybe outside of the science realm, I don't think it's worth knowing everything.

但如果我们因为不愿意至少就科学领域之外的事情进行对话而失去了很多人，我认为不值得了解一切。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I think that we were talking about dogs before.

我想我们之前讨论过狗。

I think our species is a remarkable species.

我认为我们的物种是一个非凡的物种。

Technology development, I think that we have incredible capacity for goodness, and I think we also should finally acknowledge, after many thousands of years, that we have a hardwired failure to understand ourselves, that the answers are just not going to come from us.

技术发展，我认为我们拥有令人难以置信的行善能力，而且我认为我们也应该最终承认，经过数千年，我们生来就无法理解自己，答案不会来自我们。

This is where I sit now.

这就是我现在坐的地方。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I don't want to sound too dogmatic about this.

我不想对此听起来过于教条。

It's just obvious.

这是显而易见的。

You wouldn't expect 50,000 dachshunds to come up with-- Well, maybe they could come up with a supercomputer, but-

你不会指望 50,000 只腊肠犬能想出——好吧，也许他们能想出一台超级计算机，但是——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I'm in on this experiment so far.

到目前为止我正在进行这个实验。

Do you know anybody who'd be willing to back us?

你知道有人愿意支持我们吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In this day and age?

在这个时代？

I probably do.

我可能会。

We tend to think that because we are the curators of the Earth, we are the ones that control the technology.

我们倾向于认为，因为我们是地球的管理者，所以我们是技术的控制者。

All that is true, that we're sort of above our own bullshit, and we're not.

确实如此，我们有点超越自己的废话，但事实并非如此。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

No.

不。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And so the big revelation for me was, like, oh, maybe we shouldn't look to ourselves, certainly, or even other humans, or even groups of humans, or the technologies we create, or that combination for every answer.

所以对我来说最大的启示是，哦，也许我们当然不应该关注自己，甚至不应该关注其他人，甚至人类群体，或者我们创造的技术，或者每个答案的组合。

I do think gene therapies are going to cure a lot of diseases.

我确实认为基因疗法将治愈很多疾病。

I think that AI actually is going to be of great benefit, et cetera.

我认为人工智能实际上会带来很大的好处，等等。

It's got its issues, but we'll navigate that.

它有它的问题，但我们会解决这个问题。

But when it comes to how somebody like Dave could literally take his own life, I think the implementation of the solutions will have to come from humans, but that really understanding the root of the problem is not going to come from a strictly scientific, psychological understanding.

但当谈到像戴夫这样的人如何真正结束自己的生命时，我认为解决方案的实施必须来自人类，但真正理解问题的根源不会来自严格的科学、心理学理解。

This is just my belief.

这只是我的信念。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I think it's okay.

我觉得还可以。

I like that type of malleable willingness to accept other options much more than I like the dogmatic, rigid, "You're not going to do anything other than it's either this way or the highway."

我喜欢这种愿意接受其他选择的可塑性，而不是喜欢教条式的、僵化的，“除了这条路或高速公路，你不会做任何事情。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I feel comfortable sharing this.

我觉得分享这个很舒服。

Let's just say that I knew someone very well.

这么说吧，我很了解某人。

I still know him, fortunately, he's still alive, in your community, who was in a really challenging place.

我仍然认识他，幸运的是，他还活着，在你们的社区中，他处于一个非常具有挑战性的地方。

And the only language I heard someone else speak to him, and fortunately, he's still around, they'd said something to him to the words of, "Your goggles are foggy, so you can't trust anything you think or see about yourself for the next six months.

这是我听到别人对他说话的唯一语言，幸运的是，他还在身边，他们对他说了一些话，“你的护目镜有雾，所以在接下来的六个月里你不能相信你对自己的想法或看到的任何事情。

You only can trust these three people."

你只能相信这三个人。”

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

It's not a bad approach.

这不是一个坏方法。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And he said, "Okay." And he's like, "You cannot do that.

他说：“好吧。”他说：“你不能那样做。

It's as if you're wearing prism glasses." It's kind of what I jumped in with.

就像你戴着棱镜眼镜一样。”这就是我参与其中的事情。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Hmm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Borrowed that from a neuroscience experiment.

这是从神经科学实验中借来的。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

The DUI glasses is a better analogy for this community.

对于这个社区来说，酒后驾车眼镜是一个更好的类比。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You're grasping for the mug here, but it's actually right here.

你正在抓这里的杯子，但它实际上就在这里。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And if you can just accept the fact that your optics are off, your thinking is off, you cannot trust it.

如果你只能接受你的光学已经关闭、你的思维已经关闭的事实，你就无法相信它。

And the reason that resonated with me and got me thinking about the other thing I just said is I think that we all have this innate desire to not be controlled.

引起我共鸣并让我思考我刚才所说的另一件事的原因是我认为我们都有这种与生俱来的不被控制的愿望。

And I think that I'm not going to do the if only game, could have, would have, should have, but if people as hard driving as team guys or just anybody, we're told that, "Listen, what you feel, it actually is not coming from you.

我认为我不会做如果只有游戏，可以，本来可以，应该有，但是如果人们像团队成员或任何人一样努力，我们会被告知，“听着，你的感受，它实际上不是来自你。

You're being controlled." That can set up a resilience.

你被控制了。”这可以建立韧性。

I do think you can trigger that anterior midcingulate cortex.

我确实认为你可以触发前扣带皮层。

And it's like instead of fuck me or fuck all these other people, it becomes, no. You can start to resist these forces.

这就像不是操我或操所有其他人，它变成了，不。你可以开始抵抗这些力量。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I do think there's something there.

我确实认为那里有一些东西。

So I don't think science alone is going to cure suicidality or psychology alone.

所以我不认为仅凭科学或心理学就能治愈自杀倾向。

I don't think it'll come in the form of a pill.

我不认为它会以药丸的形式出现。

Again, I think the implementation will be very much of the human world, but I think that the core understanding about what's happening in those moments is going to come from accepting a bigger picture.

再说一次，我认为实施将在很大程度上涉及人类世界，但我认为对那些时刻所发生的事情的核心理解将来自于接受更大的图景。

And I think it's obvious what I'm talking about here.

我认为我在这里所说的很明显。

And hey, why not?

嘿，为什么不呢？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

It's a deep topic, man.

这是一个很深奥的话题，伙计。

It's a tough one.

这是一项艰难的任务。

I know everybody wants easy solutions.

我知道每个人都想要简单的解决方案。

I just don't think there is one on that topic.

我只是认为没有关于该主题的内容。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

It's a painful, long road.

这是一条痛苦而漫长的路。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Bringing it to the everyday life.

将其带入日常生活。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I was imagining if I was like a, I don't know, 20-year-old or 30-year-old or 40 or 50-year-old.

我想象着我是否像一个，我不知道，20 岁或 30 岁或 40 或 50 岁的人。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Did you ever think you'd be 50?

你有没有想过你会50岁？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I said, oh.

我说，哦。

Actually, you know what?

事实上，你知道吗？

My 50th birthday, I was like, Joe Strummer, one of my heroes, died at 50.

在我 50 岁生日那天，我心想，乔·斯特鲁默（Joe Strummer），我的英雄之一，50 岁就去世了。

My graduate advisor, dead at 50.

我的研究生导师，50 岁去世。

Like, lot of friends, even though I was in the military, dead early.

就像很多朋友一样，尽管我在军队，但很早就去世了。

I felt really lucky to make it to 50.

能活到50岁我感到非常幸运。

And, I feel very excited about what's to come, but I'm mindful of everything we just talked about.

而且，我对即将发生的事情感到非常兴奋，但我注意到我们刚刚谈论的一切。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But no, I never did.

但不，我从来没有这样做过。

But the fifth floor is awesome because Kelly Starrett described it to me best.

但五楼很棒，因为凯利·斯塔雷特（Kelly Starrett）向我描述了它最好的地方。

He said, "Listen, when you're in your 40s and you're in good shape and your life is together, you're like, yeah, you're doing okay relative to your peers.

他说：“听着，当你 40 多岁时，身体状况良好，生活也很融洽，你会觉得，是的，相对于同龄人，你做得还不错。

The moment you hit 50, you're like, 'All right, I'm doing great.'" And he said, "But you have to be very careful because that's like comparing yourself to people who are really slacking." "So you got to triple down here, Berman." He goes, "Don't come off the gas pedal." So.

当你达到 50 岁的时候，你会想，‘好吧，我做得很好。’”他说，“但你必须非常小心，因为这就像将自己与真正偷懒的人进行比较。” “所以你必须在这里三倍，伯曼。”他说：“不要松开油门踏板。”所以。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Oh, Kelly Starrett.

哦，凯莉·斯塔雷特。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

I can imagine that many people are thinking, "Okay, give me the program." I know you're anti-hacks.

我可以想象很多人都在想：“好吧，把程序给我吧。”我知道你是反黑客的。

I am too.

我也是。

But what would that look like?

但那会是什么样子呢？

What can they do?

他们能做什么？

Start with the bed?

从床开始？

So wake up in the morning.

所以早上醒来。

Let's walk through it.

让我们来看看它。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

The bed.

床。

Do the bed, don't do the bed.

做床，不做床。

I would say start as early as you can with some semblance of a disciplined act.

我想说的是，尽早开始，表现出某种纪律性的行为。

If you don't want to do the bed, drink a 16-ounce glass of water in the morning before you have a cup of coffee.

如果您不想上床睡觉，请在早上喝一杯咖啡之前喝一杯 16 盎司的水。

Not many people enjoy doing that, especially if it's not flavored with something.

没有多少人喜欢这样做，尤其是如果它没有加什么调味的话。

But I tell you what, I implemented that, and it's kind of amazing how much better you feel when you hydrate a little bit after you sleep with your mouth tape, of course, on your sleep metrics because you have to have a competition with your wife on who's winning the sleep score.

但我告诉你，我实施了这一点，令人惊讶的是，当你在用嘴带睡觉后补充一点水分时，你会感觉好多了，当然，在你的睡眠指标上，因为你必须与你的妻子竞争谁赢得了睡眠分数。

Not a big deal.

没什么大不了的。

And I hate being prescriptive, and so just broadly, I tell people to pick the choice as often as possible that is slightly more difficult.

我讨厌死板，所以总的来说，我告诉人们尽可能多地选择稍微困难一点的选择。

And the reason why the bed doesn't work for some people is that you have somebody you care about deeply still sleeping on the other side.

这张床对某些人不起作用的原因是，你深爱的人仍然睡在另一边。

And maybe your day starts at a time where they're not ready to get out of bed, right?

也许你的一天是在他们还没有准备好起床的时候开始的，对吗？

So you don't want to negatively impact somebody else's life so you can have this, "I have to do this to get started." To me, it's the small stuff that nobody sees that makes the biggest difference in the world.

所以你不想对别人的生活产生负面影响，所以你可以这样说：“我必须这样做才能开始。”对我来说，正是那些没人看到的小事才给世界带来了最大的改变。

It's the choice to have the water before your coffee.

这是先喝水再喝咖啡的选择。

It's the choice to, the night before you go to bed, if you know you're going to have a busy day, meal prep or if you're going to have a breakfast that is other than ready to eat or complicated, do all the prep work beforehand so it makes it...

这是一个选择，在你睡觉前的晚上，如果你知道你将度过忙碌的一天，准备饭菜，或者如果你要吃的早餐不是即食的或复杂的，那么提前做好所有的准备工作，这样就可以......

You know what I mean?

你知道我的意思吗？

It's just the small things that, oh great, post it on Instagram.

哦，太棒了，只是将一些小事情发布到 Instagram 上。

Look, I'm cutting up asparagus so I can put it into my omelet.

看，我正在切芦笋，这样我就可以把它放进煎蛋卷里。

But the next morning, when it's ready to go and you actually have a healthy breakfast over something far less healthy, the difference in your life and the difference in your energy and your thought process and all those things continue to build.

但第二天早上，当一切准备就绪，你实际上吃了一顿健康的早餐，而不是一些不太健康的东西时，你的生活、你的能量和你的思维过程的差异以及所有这些事情都会继续建立。

I try to get people or advocate sweat or get as close to sweat as you can once a day.

我尝试让人们或提倡流汗，或每天尽可能接近流汗。

For some people, that's just getting off the couch and walking around.

对于某些人来说，这只是离开沙发并四处走动。

And I get it.

我明白了。

I have limited time just like everybody else does.

我和其他人一样，时间有限。

If I push my physical exertion until later in the day, I am far more likely to push it off until the next day.

如果我把体力消耗推迟到当天晚些时候，我更有可能推迟到第二天。

So I try to bring it a little bit earlier into my day.

所以我试着把它提前一点带入我的一天。

The jujitsu training for me usually occurs around midday, so that's a nice setup, and that's based off a class schedule, not my own creation.

对我来说，柔术训练通常在中午左右进行，所以这是一个很好的安排，而且是基于课程安排，而不是我自己的创造。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Are you working out early day as well?

你也早起锻炼吗？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I will either do jujitsu or work out.

我要么练柔术，要么锻炼身体。

I generally don't do both.

我一般不会两者都做。

As I'm getting older as well, I see the utility in both and the lack of utility in doing both very hard in the same day.

随着我年龄的增长，我看到了两者的实用性，以及在同一天努力完成这两件事的缺乏实用性。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Because, man, you can auger yourself in with a little bit too much.

因为，伙计，你可能会用太多的东西来刺激自己。

So I'll do one or the other.

所以我会做其中之一。

But also sweat could be, and again, they can get as far out there as you want.

但汗水也可能是这样，而且，它们可以随心所欲地到达那里。

It could be sitting in a sauna for 30 minutes if that's all you got and you don't have...

如果你只有在桑拿房里坐30分钟，但又没有……

You know what I mean?

你知道我的意思吗？

Figure it out.

弄清楚吧。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Which, in your case, is an ice bath.

就你而言，这是一个冰浴。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Well, I mean-

嗯，我的意思是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm just teasing

我只是在开玩笑

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

...

80.

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The 80, yeah.

80后，是的。

Exactly.

确切地。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Set the sauna to 105-

将桑拿温度设置为 105-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right

右

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

...

which is the perfect temperature for a sauna.

这是桑拿的最佳温度。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Easy.

容易。

You could put one in the other.

你可以把一个放在另一个里。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Ice bath and sauna.

冰浴和桑拿。

How much research has been done on that, Andrew?

安德鲁，对此做了多少研究？

Not enough.

不够。

We could create the world's first ice bath sauna.

我们可以创造世界上第一个冰浴桑拿房。

I don't think it's going to sell.

我不认为它会卖掉。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We'll call it The Stumpf.

我们将其称为“Stumpf”。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

It's not going to sell.

它不会卖掉。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's not going to sell.

它不会卖掉。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah, it would just be at 90 degrees for both of them, which I think actually would be perfect and delightful.

是的，对于他们两个来说，角度都是 90 度，我认为这实际上是完美且令人愉快的。

Everybody knows the harder choice versus the easier choice.

每个人都知道更难的选择与更容易的选择。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Everybody, to include myself, will look externally and say, "What do I need to do?" I know what I need to do, and so do they.

每个人，包括我自己，都会向外看并说：“我需要做什么？”我知道我需要做什么，他们也知道。

They need to do the thing, then even if it's microscopic, that they want to do less more often than they do the thing that they want to do more.

他们需要做一些事情，即使是微观的，他们想做的事情比做他们想做的事情要多。

And I know that's broad, and I know people want more of a prescription than that, but that over time is the juice.

我知道这很广泛，我知道人们想要的不仅仅是处方，但随着时间的推移，这就是果汁。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What I like about it so much is that it transcends circumstances, and it transcends the kind of moment to moment.

我非常喜欢它的一点是它超越了环境，超越了每时每刻。

So there's always an opportunity to do something slightly harder.

所以总是有机会做一些稍微困难的事情。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And then you find yourself in that friction point, that laziness point of like, "Oh, I'll do this later," or like leave that dish in the sink and you know.

然后你发现自己处于摩擦点、懒惰点，比如“哦，我稍后再做”，或者把盘子留在水槽里，你知道的。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

How many times you realize, oh, shit, I got to go, and you got a coffee cup in your hand, finish it off, and the sink's right there, and so is the dishwasher.

有多少次你意识到，哦，该死，我得走了，而你手里拿着一个咖啡杯，喝完它，水槽就在那里，洗碗机也在那里。

This is a perfect example.

这是一个完美的例子。

The easy one, put it in the sink, which you have to deal with later.

最简单的就是把它放在水槽里，稍后再处理。

Crack the dishwasher open, put the thing in there, close it up, and be on your way.

打开洗碗机，把东西放进去，关上，然后就可以上路了。

That is an example to me of a small victory.

这对我来说是一个小小的胜利的例子。

That's making the slightly harder choice.

这使得选择变得稍微困难一些。

Is that in and of itself going to change your life?

这本身会改变你的生活吗？

No. But what if you make that choice 100 times in your day?

不会。但如果您一天中做出 100 次这样的选择呢？

You're telling me it's going to look the same as it did yesterday?

你是说它看起来会和昨天一样吗？

No way in hell.

地狱里没有办法。

Pair that out over a week, over a month, over a year.

将其配对一周、一个月、一年多的时间。

Your life's not going to look the same.

你的生活将不再一样。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

I think the social pressure to not do that stuff is the new counteracting pressure, and the draw to the phone and all these things.

我认为不做这些事情的社会压力是新的抵消压力，以及电话和所有这些事情的吸引力。

But look, it's just all more opportunities to grow your anterior midcingulate cortex size, right?

但是看，这只是增加前扣带皮层大小的更多机会，对吗？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Without somebody sticking, I'm assuming, a thing in your head.

我假设，没有人坚持，你脑子里就有东西。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

That doesn't sound fun.

这听起来并不有趣。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

The funny thing about neurosurgeons is they'll tell you, "Well, listen, after we make the little hole in your skull..." They literally say this.

神经外科医生的有趣之处在于，他们会告诉你，“好吧，听着，在我们在你的头骨上打出一个小洞之后……”他们确实是这么说的。

One of my best friends from childhood is the chair of neurosurgery at UCSF, and he'll tell you, "Look, yeah, we make the hole, we do the thing, but then we put a titanium plate in there afterwards, and that's actually better than a skull, because it can protect your brain even better."

我童年时最好的朋友之一是加州大学旧金山分校的神经外科主任，他会告诉你，“听着，是的，我们打了一个洞，我们做了这件事，然后我们在里面放了一块钛板，这实际上比头骨更好，因为它可以更好地保护你的大脑。”

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Maybe on that one little tiny area.

也许在那一小块区域。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No. People actually, if you look this up, there are people who have these big pieces of titanium plate.

不，实际上，如果你查一下，有人拥有这些大块的钛板。

Anyway, fortunately, the wingsuiting thing, you close shop with that-

无论如何，幸运的是，翼装的事情，你可以用它来关闭商店-

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

early enough that you don't need those things.

早到你就不需要这些东西了。

Which brings me to kind of the final question, although there might be one more.

这让我想到了最后一个问题，尽管可能还有一个问题。

What are you super excited about these days?

这些天你对什么感到超级兴奋？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

So of all the things I do now, and for people who aren't familiar with me, I own a coffee shop.

因此，在我现在所做的所有事情中，对于那些不熟悉我的人来说，我拥有一家咖啡店。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Black Rifle.

黑色步枪。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I own a Black Rifle Coffee shop in Kalispell, Montana.

我在蒙大拿州卡利斯佩尔拥有一家 Black Rifle 咖啡店。

Very good friends with the founder.

与创始人是非常好的朋友。

He allowed me to open up the first one in Montana.

他允许我在蒙大拿州开设第一家。

I host a podcast.

我主持一个播客。

I travel the world with my wife.

我和我的妻子一起环游世界。

She's coaching.

她在当教练。

I do not coach jujitsu.

我不教练柔术。

I participate in jujitsu.

我参加柔术。

Please don't ask me for jujitsu advice, because I'm going to tell you I'm not a coach.

请不要向我寻求柔术建议，因为我要告诉你我不是教练。

Go talk to someone who does this professionally.

去和专业做这件事的人谈谈。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You roll with her?

你和她一起滚吗？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yes.

是的。

If you can beat your spouse, don't.

如果你能打败你的配偶，就不要这样做。

That's going to save people a lot of pain and suffering right there.

这将为人们减轻很多痛苦。

It's not worth it.

这是不值得的。

I have beat my wife one time.

我曾经殴打过我的妻子一次。

And for clarity, before somebody clips this, I am talking in the context of a jujitsu- As that was coming out, I'm like, oh, no.

为了清楚起见，在有人剪掉这个之前，我是在柔术的背景下说话的——当它出现时，我想，哦，不。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Ugh.

呃。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

In a consensual jujitsu exchange, I have submitted my wife one time.

在一次双方同意的柔术交流中，我曾经提交过我的妻子一次。

And the visual of our eye contact, I should've realized before finishing the submission what the potential long-term consequences would be.

以及我们目光接触的视觉效果，我应该在完成提交之前就意识到潜在的长期后果是什么。

I did not.

我没有。

And let me be the test subject for anybody else out there who trains with their significant other.

让我成为其他与重要的另一半一起训练的人的测试对象。

Just drill.

就钻吧。

Let them assume a dominant position, and if they beat you, great.

让他们占据主导地位，如果他们打败了你，那就太好了。

Take my advice for that.

听听我的建议吧。

So jujitsu, coffee, podcast.

所以柔术、咖啡、播客。

I guess I can say I'm an author now.

我想我现在可以说我是一名作家了。

I have no plans for a second book.

我没有写第二本书的计划。

I had no plans for a first book, but here we are.

我没有计划写第一本书，但我们已经完成了。

All of those things, if you had given me an unlimited amount of time for a month when I was getting out of the SEAL teams and had said, "Here's a bunch of legal paperwork, like legal notebooks and a pen, as many as you want.

所有这些事情，如果你在我离开海豹突击队时给我一个月无限的时间，并说：“这是一堆法律文件，比如法律笔记本和一支笔，你想要多少就多少。

Write down anything that you think you could possibly be doing when you get out," not a single thing that I am doing right now would've been on that list.

写下你认为出狱后可能会做的任何事情，”我现在正在做的事情没有一件会出现在这个清单上。

Couldn't even have fathomed it.

甚至无法理解它。

I worked for a strength and conditioning company for a while.

我在一家体能训练公司工作过一段时间。

In doing that, I started being the pilot for the owner of that company, which led me to doing Part 135 charter operations, flying jets, which I did that for a little bit.

在这样做的过程中，我开始担任该公司所有者的飞行员，这导致我从事第 135 部分包机业务，驾驶喷气式飞机，我做了一点点。

And then I was a professional skydiver and BASE jumper for years.

然后我担任了多年的专业跳伞运动员和定点跳伞运动员。

I got into the public speaking world.

我进入了公开演讲的世界。

Moved to Montana, then got into the coffee shop stuff, and I lost complete and utter sense of what the hell I wanted to do with my life somewhere in that mix.

搬到了蒙大拿州，然后进入了咖啡馆，我完全不知道自己到底想在这种混合的生活中做什么。

And what I'm actually the most excited about now is that I have absolutely no idea what I want to do next.

事实上，我现在最兴奋的是我完全不知道下一步要做什么。

And I am old enough to realize that I don't have to white-knuckle it, that it's going to present itself, because that has been the case in my life up to this point.

我已经足够大了，意识到我不必对它紧张不已，它会自行显现，因为到目前为止我的生活就是这样。

So, money's a great thing.

所以说，钱是个好东西。

I only want to make enough money so I can say no to things.

我只想赚足够的钱，这样我就可以对事情说不。

That's my favorite, most powerful word.

这是我最喜欢、最有力的词。

Yes, the addition and subtraction, as the older I get, subtraction is way more powerful.

是的，加减法，随着年龄的增长，减法的威力越来越大。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Are you good at saying no?

你善于说不吗？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

No. It can be hard.

不，这可能很难。

It depends.

这取决于。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Because if the question comes from a pure business aspect, my litmus test is, do I naturally do this in my life, and would I actually enjoy this regardless of the check?

因为如果问题来自纯粹的商业方面，我的试金石是，我在生活中自然会这样做吗？无论支票如何，我真的会享受这个吗？

If either of those is a no, it's an easy no. Tougher ones are friends, family, "Hey, do you want to do this?" That one gets just a little bit tougher because it's a little bit of a mix of personal and professional.

如果其中任何一个是“不”，那就很容易拒绝。更坚强的是朋友、家人，“嘿，你想这样做吗？”这个问题变得更难一点，因为它有点混合了个人和专业。

But I am at a place where I know that I have the tools That I will be able to sort whatever comes my way.

但我知道我拥有工具，可以对遇到的任何事情进行分类。

And by relaxing a little bit and white-knuckling it less and not having a specific target that I'm throwing darts at, it has actually provided more opportunities for me than anything else.

通过放松一点、少一些紧张、没有一个具体的目标来投掷飞镖，它实际上为我提供了比其他任何东西都多的机会。

So, yeah.

所以，是的。

I wish I could give you a specific answer, but truly, the realization that I know I'm prepared for whatever comes next is actually what I'm the most excited about.

我希望我能给你一个具体的答案，但说实话，我知道我已经为接下来发生的一切做好了准备，这实际上是我最兴奋的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Very cool.

非常酷。

I can sense your excitement about the uncertainty about exactly what it will be, but the certainty that you've got a process that's now well worked out-

我能感觉到你对具体情况的不确定性感到兴奋，但你肯定已经有了一个现在已经制定好的流程——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

within you that just emerges, and that it's going to happen.

在你内心，它刚刚出现，并且它将会发生。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

When I first got out of the military, it was almost crisis mode.

当我刚退伍时，几乎处于危机模式。

I was working for this strength and conditioning company as my initial bridge out, and I had been doing so on the weekends, moonlighting.

我在这家力量和体能公司工作，作为我最初的过渡，我一直在周末兼职做这件事。

So I had, from an economic off-ramp, I went from making what I was making in the military to what I was making for that company.

因此，我从经济出口开始，从在军队做事变成了为那家公司做事。

There was a slight increase as opposed to a decrease, which is great.

与下降相比，略有增加，这是很好的。

Until that ended 16 months later when I quit without having another job lined up whatsoever and then went into the garage and started selling things on Craigslist, which is a really good way to meet really weird people.

直到 16 个月后，我辞职了，没有找到另一份工作，然后走进车库，开始在 Craigslist 上卖东西，这是结识非常奇怪的人的好方法。

If you haven't tried it, give it a go.

如果您还没有尝试过，请尝试一下。

Maybe meet them away from your house.

也许可以在远离你家的地方见到他们。

Or meet them down the street somewhere.

或者在街上的某个地方遇见他们。

But it was, for years, "Am I going to have enough money to pay the bills?

但多年来，“我有足够的钱来支付账单吗？

Am I going to have enough money for the mortgage?

我有足够的钱支付抵押贷款吗？

What am I going to do if somebody doesn't reach out with an opportunity?" Built, I would say, I mean, I was going to say a toolkit or a skill set, but it's more a mentality than anything, to realize that you can solve what does come out, and you can kind of build on your foundation of the work that you have done, and that can slowly build out over time.

如果有人不给我机会，我该怎么办？”构建，我想说，我的意思是，我想说的是一个工具包或一套技能，但这比任何东西都更重要的是一种心态，意识到你可以解决最终出现的问题，你可以在你已经完成的工作的基础上进行构建，并且可以随着时间的推移慢慢构建。

It takes time.

这需要时间。

This is not something that happened in a matter of one year.

这不是一年之内发生的事情。

This is well over a decade at this point.

到此时为止，已经过去十多年了。

But getting out of that survival mode and just having the ability to assess opportunities from a place of, "Do I even want to do this?" As opposed to a place of, "I feel like I have to." Man, you want to talk about a sleep score difference.

但是，摆脱这种生存模式，并有能力从“我想这样做吗？”的角度评估机会。与“我觉得我必须这样做”相反。伙计，你想谈谈睡眠得分差异。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Totally.

完全可以。

Oh, can relate.

哦，可以联系起来。

Can relate.

可以联系起来。

Oh, it's a world apart.

哦，这是一个不同的世界。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And you've earned it.

你已经赢得了它。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

But it takes time.

但这需要时间。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

And that's what people don't want to see.

而这正是人们不愿意看到的。

It's the overnight 10-year success, which, again, I'm sure you could point to somebody who has that.

这是一夜之间的十年成功，我相信你可以指出某个拥有这种成功的人。

Does that scale broadly?

这范围广泛吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

And it doesn't last.

而且它不会持久。

I don't know anyone that came up quick, and it just had a step function where it's still going.

我不知道有谁能很快提出来，而且它只是有一个仍在运行的步进函数。

It's, you know-

这是，你知道的——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Or continued on the vertical forever.

或者永远继续垂直。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

And again, it's an outlier.

再说一遍，这是一个异常值。

Cool.

凉爽的。

Totally get it, and two thumbs up for that person, but for everybody who thinks they're going to replicate that, even by doing exactly the same things, hasn't been my experience.

完全明白，并为那个人竖起两个大拇指，但对于每个认为自己会复制这一点的人来说，即使是通过做完全相同的事情，也不是我的经验。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Last question.

最后一个问题。

You talk about the price of success.

你谈到成功的代价。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And just acknowledging it.

并且只是承认这一点。

Wouldn't want to scare anyone out of going after their dreams.

不想吓到任何人放弃追求自己的梦想。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I would.

我会的。

That's what I'm here for, Andrew.

这就是我来这里的目的，安德鲁。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Either short-term or long-term dreams, because I'm like a, pick the target and go after it.

无论是短期还是长期的梦想，因为我就像一个，选择目标并去追求它。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I think five-year increments are really good.

我认为五年的增量确实很好。

Anyway, that's just my bias, but there is a price.

无论如何，这只是我的偏见，但这是有代价的。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I could list off the number of things I missed or didn't do or failed or whatever.

我可以列出我错过的、没有做的、失败的事情的数量。

You certainly talk about some of those, and they can go from the many small things that one can miss out on that, in total, turn out to be bigger things, and then there are key moments that people miss.

你当然谈到了其中的一些，它们可以从人们可能错过的许多小事情开始，总的来说，变成更大的事情，然后还有人们错过的关键时刻。

And maybe let's just get your thoughts on gauging the price of success.

也许让我们来听听您对衡量成功的代价的看法。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Should people have a sense of what their line is before they jump into the line of pursuit for their goal?

人们在开始追求目标之前是否应该了解自己的路线是什么？

Or do you think it's just something that you just got to learn by experience?

或者你认为这只是你需要通过经验来学习的东西？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I think until you learn through at least a little bit of experience, it's hard to gauge where your line is, because for a while, you just don't know what you don't know.

我认为，除非你通过至少一点点经验来学习，否则很难判断你的底线在哪里，因为有一段时间，你只是不知道自己不知道什么。

And maybe we live in a world where information is more accessible, and so people can figure it out.

也许我们生活在一个信息更容易获取的世界，因此人们可以弄清楚。

Like my middle son as an example.

以我的二儿子为例。

It was fascinating watching my kids use the internet to bridge gaps in knowledge.

看着我的孩子们使用互联网来弥合知识差距真是太有趣了。

Going on to you, my middle son specifically started two businesses when he was in high school.

继续说下去，我的二儿子在高中时专门创办了两家企业。

He started a window cleaning company called Peeping Tom's Windows.

他创办了一家窗户清洁公司，名为“偷窥狂之窗”。

Which by the way, I came up with both of these names.

顺便说一句，这两个名字都是我想出来的。

That was the only marketing help I had.

这是我唯一的营销帮助。

And he had a Christmas light company that was called Epstein's Lights because they're not going to hang themselves, right?

他有一家圣诞灯公司，名叫爱泼斯坦之灯，因为他们不会上吊自杀，对吧？

Again, I came up with the names.

我再次想出了这些名字。

He had to go door to door.

他必须挨家挨户地走。

But everything to include LLCs, equipment, it's YouTube.

但包括有限责任公司、设备在内的一切都是 YouTube。

How do you start an LLC?

如何创办有限责任公司？

How do you get a business license?

如何获得营业执照？

How do you get insurance for a window cleaning company?

如何为窗户清洁公司购买保险？

So, I think when you and I were growing up, you were kind of out there smacking your head against the wall a little bit, unless you could find somebody who was exactly in that profession.

所以，我认为当你和我成长的时候，你就会有点把头撞到墙上，除非你能找到一个完全从事这个职业的人。

So when I was in high school wanting to be a team guy, I didn't know any team guys.

所以当我在高中时想成为一名团队成员时，我不认识任何团队成员。

I mean, I knew Charlie Sheen, but who didn't, right?

我的意思是，我认识查理·辛，但谁不认识呢，对吧？

Documentary movie who probably inspired thousands of people to join the military, and then they get there and like, "Oh, this is all made up.

纪录片可能激励了成千上万的人参军，然后他们到达那里并喜欢，“哦，这都是编造的。

Damn it." Except for the opening scene where he's shitfaced, wakes up in the ocean, relatively accurate.

该死的。”除了开场他一脸狼狈、在海里醒来的场景外，相对准确。

Beyond that, though, don't take that movie seriously.

但除此之外，不要认真对待那部电影。

You're not jumping off your Jeep over the bridge in Chesapeake to get to work.

你不会从切萨皮克的桥上跳下吉普车去上班。

I didn't actually run into a SEAL to get beta from until I was in the military.

直到我参军之前，我实际上并没有遇到海豹突击队来进行测试。

So, I didn't even have access to that.

所以，我什至没有机会接触到它。

I mean, I saw this when I was an instructor.

我的意思是，我当教练的时候就看到过这个。

There are websites that list every single day of training with relative accuracy to everything you're going to do that day, which actually the instructors were pissed about, and then I realized, oh, that's a good thing.

有些网站列出了每一天的训练，相对准确地描述了你当天要做的所有事情，这实际上让教练很生气，然后我意识到，哦，这是一件好事。

That plays to our favor.

这对我们有利。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Hmm.

嗯。

Because you were an instructor.

因为你是一名导师。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I was an instructor.

我是一名教练。

You can then remind them how much time they have left.

然后您可以提醒他们还剩多少时间。

You can play the time game in reverse with them.

你可以和他们玩相反的时间游戏。

But again, growing up, I I didn't have a real good place to get this information where my kids do now.

但再说一次，在我的成长过程中，我没有像我的孩子现在那样有一个真正好的地方来获取这些信息。

So, I think there's an opportunity if you smartly use these tools that you can maybe learn a little bit more, and at least get access to some of the mistakes, or just the mistakes that you would naturally make because you just didn't know.

因此，我认为，如果您巧妙地使用这些工具，您可能会学到更多东西，并且至少可以避免一些错误，或者只是因为您不知道而自然会犯的错误。

Like you probably could do a window cleaning business, but you might get in trouble from the city because a year into it you didn't realize you needed to have a business license.

就像您可能可以做窗户清洁业务，但您可能会遇到来自城市的麻烦，因为一年后您没有意识到您需要拥有营业执照。

Like okay, you could skip that because you could go to the internet and find out what you need, and the requirements and all that stuff.

好吧，你可以跳过这个，因为你可以上网找到你需要的东西、要求和所有这些东西。

I, much like you, I don't ever want to tell people that they shouldn't pursue their goals, both short-term and long-term.

我，就像你一样，我不想告诉人们他们不应该追求他们的目标，无论是短期还是长期的。

But I am now of the opinion as I get older, that I would rather have people arrive a little bit under this massive lifetime goal and be a really happy, really fulfilled, really enriched person than somebody who carves out everything from their life, life experiences, social experiences, family experiences, holidays, and they get exactly what it is that they wanted, and they have nothing.

但随着年龄的增长，我现在的观点是，我宁愿人们在这个宏大的一生目标下实现一点点，成为一个真正快乐、真正满足、真正丰富的人，而不是那些从他们的生活、生活经历、社会经历、家庭经历、假期中创造一切的人，他们得到了他们想要的东西，而他们却一无所有。

Because I think both you and I know people who from the outside, oh my god, the money, the fame, the fill in the blank.

因为我想你和我都认识一些从外面来的人，天啊，金钱，名誉，填补空白。

They're not that happy, but they have everything that they wanted, and they have nothing.

他们并没有那么幸福，但他们想要的一切都有了，又一无所有。

That sounds like hell.

这听起来就像是地狱。

I'd rather have people fall a little bit short of that and be really happy about where they are.

我宁愿让人们稍微达不到这一点，并对他们所处的位置感到非常高兴。

But it's tough.

但这很难。

How can you be prescriptive with that?

你怎么能对此做出规定呢？

How do you say, "Aim for your goal, Andrew, but just a little bit short."

你怎么说，“瞄准你的目标，安德鲁，但只是有点短。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

That's a shitty fortune cookie.

这真是一个糟糕的幸运饼干。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Try hard, but leave some for yourself.

努力尝试，但还是给自己留一些。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It is a tough one.

这是一项艰难的任务。

And, if people at sort of top 1% of their careers were willing to open the veil on their lives and show what Christmas Day looks like for them, or what New Year's Day looks like for them, or a typical Friday evening looks like for them-

而且，如果处于职业生涯前 1% 的人愿意揭开他们生活的面纱，向他们展示圣诞节对他们来说是什么样子，或者对他们来说元旦是什么样子，或者对他们来说一个典型的周五晚上是什么样子——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

a lot of people would probably rethink their goals.

很多人可能会重新考虑他们的目标。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I think it would shock a lot of people.

我想这会让很多人震惊。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

And again, the people we're talking about, these are publicly facing people.

再说一次，我们谈论的人都是面向公众的人。

You could look at them and think that it's perfection.

你可以看着它们并认为它是完美的。

And we have a little bit of social circle overlap, and I've rubbed elbows with a couple of these people, and kind of leave with the perception of, man, you have everything, but at what cost?

我们的社交圈有一点重叠，我和其中几个人打过交道，离开时的感觉是，伙计，你拥有一切，但代价是什么？

I just don't think it's worth it.

我只是觉得不值得。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, I don't think it's worth it either.

是的，我也不认为值得。

And it sort of brings us to elements of our prior conversation about when things really drop into the trench for certain people who are, at least from the outside, doing incredible in their-

这让我们想起了之前谈话中的一些内容，即对于某些人来说，什么时候事情真的陷入了困境，至少从外部来看，他们在——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

professions or their craft.

职业或他们的手艺。

I think there is a place to find balance on the whole.

我认为总体上有一个地方可以找到平衡。

Maybe it's like first 50 years, you just, I'm talking to myself, right?

也许就像前50年，你只是，我在自言自语，对吧？

You just grind it out, and then you go, okay, cool.

你只需要把它磨掉，然后你就可以了，好吧，酷。

Someone said it, I didn't say this.

这是别人说过的，不是我说的。

I think it was Naval that said this.

我认为这句话是海军说的。

One of the reasons to win the game is so you can stop playing the game.

赢得游戏的原因之一是你可以停止玩游戏。

So, you have to sort of define what winning the game is, and that's-

所以，你必须定义什么是赢得比赛，那就是——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

different for different things.

对于不同的事情是不同的。

But that portion of your book really got me thinking.

但你书中的那部分确实引起了我的思考。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Well, money is an interesting aspect.

嗯，金钱是一个有趣的方面。

More seems to be the number people are after more than a number.

更多似乎是人们追求的数字不仅仅是一个数字。

And I don't know what that looks like, because if your number is never enough and you're constantly seeking, and you never get to enjoy what you have via an experience as opposed to a thing that you're not going to get to take with you anyway, doesn't more end up netting you less?

我不知道那是什么样子，因为如果你的数量永远不够，而你不断地寻求，而你永远无法通过体验来享受你所拥有的东西，而不是你无论如何也不会带走的东西，那么更多的东西最终不会让你赚得更少吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, Morgan Housel, he has a couple of really good books.

是的，摩根豪塞尔，他有几本非常好的书。

I actually like the second one more.

其实我更喜欢第二个。

They're both excellent, but the second one is called "The Art of Spending Money," which sounds like you're the rich guy telling people how to spend their money.

这两本书都很棒，但第二本叫做“花钱的艺术”，听起来就像你是一个富人告诉人们如何花钱。

Very interesting book, mostly psychological about how to really assess what things are worth to you-

非常有趣的书，主要是关于如何真正评估事物对你的价值的心理学-

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

both in terms of what it takes to get the resources, and then when to use them.

既包括如何获取资源，也包括何时使用资源。

And I will say, there's a lot of data saying that, past it used to be like $70,000 a year.

我会说，有很多数据表明，过去每年大约是 70,000 美元。

Now, I think it's scaled up with inflation.

现在，我认为它随着通货膨胀而扩大。

Past a certain amount of money, people aren't happier.

有了一定数量的钱，人们就不再快乐了。

I disagree.

我不同意。

I actually think that money cannot buy happiness, but it certainly can buffer certain kinds of stress.

我其实认为金钱买不到幸福，但它确实可以缓冲某些压力。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I agree.

我同意。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Not all forms.

并非所有形式。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I know some very wealthy people that used to fund my lab for studies on optic nerve repair who had kids with diseases that were blinding diseases.

我认识一些非常富有的人，他们曾经资助我的实验室进行视神经修复研究，他们的孩子患有致盲性疾病。

I'll tell you, you can have billions of dollars in the bank, and they're putting money to try and heal that pain and solve the problem.

我告诉你，你可以在银行里存有数十亿美元，他们正在投入资金来尝试治愈这种痛苦并解决问题。

Fortunately for their kid, and many others, that's the fortunately part is that they're willing to do that.

对于他们的孩子和其他许多人来说幸运的是，幸运的是他们愿意这样做。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But money can solve certain problems, not others.

但金钱可以解决某些问题，但不能解决其他问题。

But it can buffer stress, certain forms of stress.

但它可以缓冲压力，某些形式的压力。

And I think that's just the honest truth.

我认为这只是诚实的事实。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It can't buy connection of a real kind, and it can undermine.

它买不到真正的联系，而且还可能造成破坏。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I was going to say, at a certain level of money, I've seen it undermine the connection because the person becomes wary of why does this person want to have a connection with me in the first place?

我想说的是，在一定水平的金钱上，我看到它破坏了这种联系，因为这个人首先开始警惕为什么这个人想与我建立联系？

And they didn't come that way.

但他们并不是那样来的。

They got taken advantage of enough times that they developed that thought process.

他们被利用了足够多的时间，从而形成了这种思维过程。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's a whole other conversation, but money's a certain form of energy, and when people have a lot of it, it tends to attract people who want to, I don't want to say steal, but they feel like they're entitled to some of that energy.

这是完全不同的话题，但金钱是一种特定形式的能量，当人们拥有很多金钱时，它往往会吸引那些想要的人，我不想说偷，但他们觉得自己有权获得一些能量。

At the end of the day, I think if everyone could define what enough for themselves is, maybe that includes a buffer.

归根结底，我认为如果每个人都能定义什么是对自己足够的，也许这包括一个缓冲。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because they grew up with a lot of financial fear or something, they need enough plus a little bit more just in case kind of thing.

因为他们在成长过程中伴随着很多财务恐惧或其他什么，所以他们需要足够的钱，再加上一点以防万一。

I know people like that.

我认识这样的人。

Past that, I don't think there's anything more to be gained in terms of wellbeing or life experiences.

除此之外，我认为在幸福或生活经历方面没有什么可以获得的。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

I do agree with the stress.

我确实同意压力。

If you can get to a place where you could outsource food or menial tasks that will give you more time to do the things that you are enriched by, yes, it 100% can help with that.

如果你能找到一个可以外包食物或琐事的地方，这样你就有更多的时间去做那些让你充实的事情，是的，它 100% 可以帮助你。

But the example you said, a billionaire who probably feels helpless.

但你说的例子，一个亿万富翁可能会感到无助。

What?

什么？

Those two things shouldn't go together in a sentence, but that's the reality.

这两件事不应该放在一起说，但事实就是如此。

No amount of money is going to make that person not feel helpless, especially when they're touched by that particular situation in their life.

无论多少钱，都不会让这个人不感到无助，尤其是当他们被生活中的特殊情况所触动时。

May not be the end all be all that people think it is.

结局可能并不像人们想象的那样。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, Andy, loved the book.

嗯，安迪很喜欢这本书。

I know I've said that many times, so I don't want to diminish from that statement by saying it too many times, but it's an awesome book.

我知道我已经说过很多次了，所以我不想因为说太多次而削弱这句话，但这是一本很棒的书。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Thank you.

谢谢你。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Really has changed my life for the better.

确实让我的生活变得更好了。

I've been recommending it like crazy.

我一直在疯狂地推荐它。

I was in New York last week giving a talk to this group, raising money for a different laboratory, and they said, "What's the difference between people who are 11th to 100th in their profession versus the top 10?" And I said, "Well, so much of it is about how they allocate their energy." And I found this tool recently in Andy's book, and I'd been talking about the book like crazy because of the practical value that it has, and also the potency of the true life examples that you give that really extend to everybody.

上周我在纽约给这个团体做演讲，为另一个实验室筹集资金，他们说，“在他们的职业中排名第 11 到第 100 名的人和排名前 10 名的人有什么区别？”我说：“嗯，这很大程度上是关于他们如何分配精力。”我最近在安迪的书中发现了这个工具，我一直在疯狂地谈论这本书，因为它具有实用价值，而且你给每个人提供的真实生活例子的效力。

I know we talked a lot about teams and guys and stuff, and everything in there really is of benefit.

我知道我们谈论了很多关于球队、球员和其他事情，其中的一切确实都是有益的。

I say this with certainty to men, women, boys, girls, young and old, so much value there.

我肯定地对男人、女人、男孩、女孩、年轻人和老年人说这句话，它们非常有价值。

You're clearly a get after it kind of person.

你显然是一个追求它的人。

You're also clearly very reflective and whatever friction it took to write portions or that book and get it out there, I'm just very grateful that you did.

显然，你也非常善于反思，无论写部分内容或那本书并把它出版时遇到什么困难，我都非常感激你所做的。

It's a real asset.

这是一笔真正的资产。

And I'm also very grateful you came here today to share.

我也非常感谢您今天来到这里分享。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

We finally linked up.

我们终于联系上了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And we finally linked up.

我们终于联系上了。

I have to say, Montana is my favorite state in the entire-

我不得不说，蒙大拿州是我最喜欢的州——

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Come visit

前来参观

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

country, and maybe my favorite place in the entire world.

国家，也许是全世界我最喜欢的地方。

Many years ago, I dreamed of living there, and I love hiking in Glacier.

很多年前，我梦想住在那里，而且我喜欢在冰川里徒步旅行。

And yes, they do have real bears there, not like in Yosemite, where they have bears, but not the kind of bears that will hunt you.

是的，那里确实有真正的熊，不像优胜美地，那里有熊，但不是那种会猎杀你的熊。

So wear your bear bell.

所以请戴上你的熊铃。

Story for another time.

故事再讲一次。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Grizz actually got somebody not too long ago.

不久前，格里兹实际上已经找到了一个人。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, really?

哦，真的吗？

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Yeah, in Glacier.

是的，在冰川里。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, wear your bear bell.

是的，戴上你的熊铃。

Hang your food, wear your bear bell.

挂上你的食物，戴上你的熊铃。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Ugh.

呃。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But listen, man, you're doing amazing work, and we'll put links to all the things mentioned, but thanks so much.

但是听着，伙计，你做得很棒，我们将提供所有提到的内容的链接，但非常感谢。

Let's do it again.

让我们再做一次。

Andy Stumpf:

安迪·斯坦普夫：

Thank you.

谢谢你。

I appreciate it.

我很感激。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Andy Stumpf.

感谢您参加今天与安迪·斯坦普夫的讨论。

To find links to his book, "Drownproof," which again, I highly recommend everybody read or listen to, as well as to find links to his work and to his podcast, please see the links in the show note caption.

要找到他的书《Drownproof》的链接（我再次强烈建议每个人阅读或收听这本书），以及找到他的作品和播客的链接，请参阅节目说明标题中的链接。

If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.

如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。

That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.

这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。

In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple.

此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的关注按钮来关注播客。

And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.

在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。

And you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.

您现在可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。

Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.

另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。

That's the best way to support this podcast.

这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。

If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.

如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客或嘉宾有意见，或者您希望我为 Huberman Lab 播客考虑的主题，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。

I do read all the comments.

我确实阅读了所有评论。

And if you're not already following me on social media, I am hubermanlab on all social media platforms.

如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 hubermanlab。

So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.

这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。

And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast.

在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。

Again, it's hubermanlab on all social media platforms.

再说一遍，所有社交媒体平台上都是 hubermanlab。

And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries, as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.

如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要，以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。

We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.

我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。

All of that is available completely zero cost.

所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。

You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter and enter your email.

您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的“菜单”选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯并输入您的电子邮件即可。

And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.

我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。

Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Andy Stumpf.

再次感谢您参加今天与 Andy Stumpf 的讨论。

And last, but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.

最后但同样重要的是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。