The Chemistry of Food & Taste | Dr. Harold McGee
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
My guest today is Dr. Harold McGee.
今天我的客人是哈罗德·麦吉博士。
Dr. Harold McGee is a professor at Stanford University and world-renowned author on the topic of science and the chemistry of food and cooking.
哈罗德·麦吉博士是斯坦福大学教授，也是科学以及食品和烹饪化学领域的世界著名作家。
He has spent more than four decades researching and writing about this topic.
他花了四十多年的时间研究和撰写有关该主题的文章。
His work is unique because it, at once, teaches us about why foods taste the way they do, as well as how to make essentially any food or drink taste better.
他的工作是独一无二的，因为它立即告诉我们为什么食物的味道是这样的，以及如何使任何食物或饮料的味道更好。
I, like presumably most of you, absolutely love to eat.
我和你们大多数人一样，非常喜欢吃。
And for me, that's an understatement.
对我来说，这是轻描淡写的说法。
I love food and eating.
我喜欢食物和吃。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Today, Harold teaches us about everything from how certain types of cookware, the bowls, the pans you use, even the utensils you use, can change the taste of those foods, as well as simple things, like adding a pinch of salt to anything bitter-tasting, including coffee, yes, coffee, changes its chemistry and flavor for the better, and he explains why.
今天，哈罗德向我们讲述了一切，从某些类型的炊具、你使用的碗、平底锅，甚至你使用的器具，如何改变这些食物的味道，以及一些简单的事情，比如在任何苦味的东西中添加少许盐，包括咖啡，是的，咖啡，可以改变它的化学成分和味道，使其变得更好，他解释了原因。
We discuss the preparation of meat and this thing that we call savoriness or the umami taste, and how it's brought about by heating proteins in very specific ways, and how you can bring out more of those flavors, and how to get more of the healthy compounds, such as polyphenols found in chocolate and cacao.
我们讨论肉类的制备以及我们称之为鲜味或鲜味的东西，以及如何通过以非常特定的方式加热蛋白质来产生这种味道，以及如何带出更多这些味道，以及如何获得更多健康化合物，例如巧克力和可可中发现的多酚。
And we cover the much-debated issue of whether more expensive wines are truly better than less expensive ones in terms of their taste, or whether it's all a function of marketing.
我们还讨论了一个备受争议的问题：就口味而言，更昂贵的葡萄酒是否真的比便宜的葡萄酒更好，或者这是否完全是营销的作用。
So if you're a seasoned cook or perhaps you only know how to make a few basic dishes, or if your version of cooking is basically a protein shake and some oatmeal, this discussion with Harold McGee will let you understand the essential chemistry of food and cooking and how to prepare food that is far more enjoyable.
因此，如果您是一位经验丰富的厨师，或者您只知道如何制作一些基本菜肴，或者您的烹饪方式基本上是蛋白质奶昔和一些燕麦片，那么与 Harold McGee 的讨论将让您了解食物和烹饪的基本化学成分，以及如何准备更令人愉快的食物。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
As I said before, I love to eat, and this discussion taught me how to make the foods I love so much, meat, cheese, vegetables, fruit, starches, et cetera, all taste far better.
正如我之前所说，我喜欢吃，这次讨论教会了我如何使我非常喜欢的食物，肉，奶酪，蔬菜，水果，淀粉等等，味道都更好。
And since eating is a big part of life, not just a way to support our health, I'm certain that everyone will glean useful knowledge and practical tools from Dr. McGee.
由于饮食是生活的重要组成部分，而不仅仅是支持我们健康的一种方式，我确信每个人都会从麦吉博士那里学到有用的知识和实用工具。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是将有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息带给公众。
In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.
为了与这个主题保持一致，今天的节目确实有赞助商。
And now, for my discussion with Dr. Harold McGee.
现在，我与哈罗德·麦吉博士进行了讨论。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Dr. Harold McGee, welcome.
哈罗德·麦吉博士，欢迎光临。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Thank you, Dr. Huberman.
谢谢你，休伯曼博士。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
I, like most people, love to eat.
我和大多数人一样，爱吃。
I also love food.
我也喜欢食物。
I love the look of it, I love the smell of it, and I love the anticipation of eating.
我喜欢它的外观，我喜欢它的味道，我喜欢它对吃东西的期待。
And you've had a truly unique career.
您拥有真正独特的职业生涯。
We'll talk a little bit more about your background later, but you've had such a unique career focusing on the chemistry of food interactions.
稍后我们将更多地讨论您的背景，但您的职业生涯如此独特，专注于食物相互作用的化学。
And I must say, even just knowing a little bit about your work, you've changed the way that I think about even the sorts of metals that I might use to prepare my food because it turns out these things are all impacting one another in not just small ways, but really profound ways that impact our experience of food and taste.
我必须说，即使只是了解一点点你的工作，你也改变了我思考的方式，甚至是我可能用来准备食物的金属种类，因为事实证明，这些东西不仅以微小的方式相互影响，而且以真正深刻的方式影响我们对食物和口味的体验。
So, just to kick things off, is there any one wild food interaction chemistry fact that you just particularly find interesting?
那么，首先，有没有一种野生食物相互作用的化学事实是您特别感兴趣的？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
When I started writing my book about the chemistry of cooking, I didn't know that much about cooking or about chemistry.
当我开始写关于烹饪化学的书时，我对烹饪或化学了解不多。
I was kind of learning on the fly, which was part of the fun.
我是在即时学习，这是乐趣的一部分。
And I read, when I was writing about eggs, that if you're going to make a foam of egg whites to make a meringue or a souffle, so you would put the egg whites in a bowl and whisk them until they essentially form a solid from that liquid, consisting of air bubbles trapped in the liquid, and that makes it act like a solid.
当我写关于鸡蛋的文章时，我读到，如果你要制作蛋白泡沫来制作蛋白酥皮或蛋奶酥，那么你可以将蛋白放入碗中搅拌，直到它们基本上从液体中形成固体，由液体中困有的气泡组成，这使其表现得像固体。
It is an amazing kind of transformation.
这是一种令人惊奇的转变。
And when I was looking at what cooks had said about this process, they said, "You should use a copper bowl to do that whipping."
当我查看厨师们对这个过程的评价时，他们说：“你应该使用铜碗来进行鞭打。”
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
And so, I looked in the chemistry of eggs literature, of which there was a fair amount actually, for some kind of explanation as to why that might be the case, and I couldn't find one.
因此，我查阅了有关鸡蛋化学的文献，其中实际上有相当多的文献，以寻求某种解释来解释为什么会出现这种情况，但我找不到。
I decided, "Well, it's probably an old cook's tale.
我决定，“嗯，这可能是一个老厨师的故事。
Somebody who had a copper bowl used that, and thought that was better." I didn't think anything more about it until I was preparing my book for publication, looking for cheap illustrations because I couldn't afford good ones, and I found an old engraving of an 18th-century French kitchen.
有人有一个铜碗，用过它，并认为这样更好。”我没有再多想这个问题，直到我准备出版我的书，寻找便宜的插图，因为我买不起好的插图，我发现了一幅 18 世纪法国厨房的旧版画。
And there was a boy acting as though he was whipping something in a bowl.
有一个男孩表现得好像在碗里搅打什么东西。
The bowl kind of looked like our modern copper bowls with a little ring to hang the bowl on the wall.
这个碗有点像我们现代的铜碗，有一个小环可以把碗挂在墙上。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
There was a key that came along with the illustrations, and the key actually said, "Whipping eggs in a copper bowl to make pastries." So, I thought, "If the French have been doing it for hundreds of years, maybe there's something to this.
插图中附有一把钥匙，钥匙上写着：“在铜碗里搅打鸡蛋，制作糕点。”所以，我想，“如果法国人已经这样做了数百年，也许这是有道理的。
Maybe I should actually test it," which was a really important lesson for me.
也许我应该实际测试一下，”这对我来说是一个非常重要的教训。
Test everything.
测试一切。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
I gulped and bought a copper bowl because they're expensive, and I did a side-by-side, and the difference was tremendous.
我咽了口口水，买了一个铜碗，因为它们很贵，我并排做了一个，差别很大。
It had different color, texture, and consistency in the mouth.
它在口中具有不同的颜色、质地和稠度。
It was a totally different experience.
这是一次完全不同的经历。
And so, it was that realization that a cook's...
因此，正是意识到厨师...
What I thought might be an old cook's tale could actually have a kernel of scientific chemical truth to it.
我认为可能是一个老厨师的故事实际上可能有科学化学真理的核心。
That, to me, was a mind-blowing and career-changing experience because from then on, I didn't take anything for granted.
对我来说，这是一次令人兴奋且改变职业生涯的经历，因为从那时起，我不再认为任何事情都是理所当然的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
I always had to give it a try.
我总是不得不尝试一下。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
I love it.
我喜欢它。
I recently started drinking water out of a copper reusable bottle, also because I needed a water bottle, and there was one for sale where I happened to be, and it was copper.
我最近开始用可重复使用的铜瓶喝水，也是因为我需要一个水瓶，而我碰巧在那里有一个出售的水瓶，它是铜的。
And I rather liked the taste.
而且我很喜欢这个味道。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
There are all sorts of theories about copper being better for us, health-wise, et cetera.
有各种各样的理论认为铜对我们更好，在健康方面等等。
I haven't explored those to see if they're actually true or if it's nonsense, but I do like the look of it.
我还没有探索过它们是真的还是无稽之谈，但我确实喜欢它的外观。
Is copper used for the preparation of any other foods?
铜是否用于制备其他食品？
Specifically, in order to extract the best flavor from those foods or liquids?
具体来说，是为了从那些食物或液体中提取出最好的风味？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Copper is actually used in jelly and jam-making, and the reason for that is that if you use any other material, you end up messing with almost everything in there because the temperatures are pretty high.
铜实际上用于制作果冻和果酱，其原因是，如果您使用任何其他材料，您最终会弄乱里面的几乎所有东西，因为温度非常高。
They're above the boiling point.
它们的温度高于沸点。
But in particular, the sugars.
但特别是糖。
If you break sucrose down to glucose and fructose, the behavior of the material changes a lot, and it's not necessarily for the better.
如果将蔗糖分解为葡萄糖和果糖，材料的行为会发生很大变化，而且不一定会变得更好。
It turns out that copper actually inhibits the breakdown of sucrose into glucose and fructose.
事实证明，铜实际上抑制了蔗糖分解成葡萄糖和果糖。
And so, for generations, cooks, with French cooks in particular, have used copper bowls to make their preserves.
因此，几代人以来，厨师，尤其是法国厨师，都使用铜碗来制作蜜饯。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Wow.
哇。
Copper is used for a variety of things, it sounds like.
听起来，铜有多种用途。
And people have arrived at this through what sounds like an unconscious genius combined with experimentation.
人们通过听起来像是无意识的天才与实验相结合而达到了这一点。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
When scientists got interested in cooking, they sometimes made claims and suggested changes that, in fact, were terrible ideas.
当科学家对烹饪感兴趣时，他们有时会提出一些主张并提出改变，但事实上，这些想法都是糟糕的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
The traditional way of doing things was actually much better.
传统的做事方式实际上要好得多。
They had come up with a partial understanding of what was going on, and on the basis of that partial understanding, they decided that they needed to correct cooks who, of course, weren't as smart as they were and get them to change.
他们对正在发生的事情有了部分了解，并在这种部分了解的基础上，他们决定需要纠正那些当然不如他们聪明的厨师，并让他们做出改变。
And so, you can see that in the middle of the 19th century, some cookbooks published in England and the US, having a subtitle...
所以，你可以看到，在 19 世纪中叶，一些在英国和美国出版的烹饪书，有一个副标题......
You know, back in the day, long subtitles were enjoyed.
你知道，在过去，很喜欢长字幕。
The subtitle would be, "In which the theories of Dr. Liebig have been as much as possible applied in the recipes." And Liebig was a genius biochemist, but on cooking, he kind of took his genius for granted and was wrong.
副标题是“其中尽可能多地应用了李比希博士的理论。”李比希是一位天才的生物化学家，但在烹饪方面，他认为自己的天才是理所当然的，但他错了。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
The cooks knew better.
厨师们更清楚。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Yeah, I love this notion of unconscious genius, that a field of people who are experimenting without any formal rigorous coursework in a given area, like chemistry, can arrive at truths without understanding the mechanistic basis of those truths.
是的，我喜欢这种无意识天才的概念，即一群人在特定领域（例如化学）没有任何正式严格的课程的情况下进行实验，可以在不了解这些真理的机械基础的情况下得出真理。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
I think a lot of what we face nowadays in the sphere of health and nutrition is about that conflict.
我认为我们现在在健康和营养领域面临的很多问题都与这种冲突有关。
There are papers identifying mechanisms, but then they don't play out in clinical trials, and then there are people in the real world who are doing things for which there's really no peer-reviewed research, but you get the sense that maybe they're onto something.
有些论文确定了机制，但它们在临床试验中没有发挥作用，然后现实世界中有些人正在做一些实际上没有同行评审研究的事情，但你会感觉到他们可能正在做某事。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
It's a very interesting intersection of expertise and real-world results.
这是专业知识和现实世界结果的非常有趣的交叉点。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yes.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Yeah.
是的。
Or sometimes the collision of the two.
或者有时是两者的碰撞。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Eight Sleep.
我想稍微休息一下，并向我们的赞助商“八睡”表示感谢。
Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity.
August Sleep 生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。
One of the best ways to ensure a great night's sleep is to make sure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct.
确保一夜好眠的最佳方法之一是确保睡眠环境的温度正确。
And that's because in order to fall and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees.
这是因为为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，您的体温实际上必须下降约一到三度。
And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees.
为了醒来时感觉神清气爽、精力充沛，您的体温实际上必须升高约一到三度。
Eight Sleep automatically regulates the temperature of your bed throughout the night according to your unique needs.
八睡眠会根据您的独特需求自动调节整个晚上的床温。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Eight Sleep has just launched their latest model, the Pod 5, and the Pod 5 has several new important features.
八睡眠刚刚推出了他们的最新型号 Pod 5，Pod 5 有几个新的重要功能。
One of these new features is called Auto Pilot.
这些新功能之一称为自动驾驶仪。
Auto Pilot is an AI engine that learns your sleep patterns to adjust the temperature of your sleeping environment across different sleep stages.
Auto Pilot 是一款人工智能引擎，可以学习您的睡眠模式，从而调整不同睡眠阶段的睡眠环境温度。
It also elevates your head if you're snoring, and it makes other shifts to optimize your sleep.
如果您打鼾，它还会抬高您的头部，并进行其他转换以优化您的睡眠。
The base on the Pod 5 also has an integrated speaker that syncs to the Eight Sleep app and can play audio to support relaxation and recovery.
Pod 5 的底座还配有一个集成扬声器，可与八睡眠应用程序同步，并可以播放音频以支持放松和恢复。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
The audio catalog includes several NSDR, non-sleep deep rest, scripts that I worked on with Eight Sleep to record.
音频目录包括几个 NSDR、非睡眠深度休息以及我与“八睡眠”一起录制的脚本。
If you're not familiar, NSDR involves listening to an audio script that walks you through a deep body relaxation combined with some very simple breathing exercises.
如果您不熟悉，NSDR 涉及聆听音频脚本，该音频脚本将引导您进行深度身体放松，并结合一些非常简单的呼吸练习。
NSDR can help offset some of the negative effects of slight sleep deprivation, and NSDR gets you better at falling back asleep should you wake up in the middle of the night.
NSDR 可以帮助抵消轻微睡眠不足的一些负面影响，并且 NSDR 可以让您在半夜醒来时更好地重新入睡。
It's an extremely powerful tool that anyone can benefit from the first time and every time.
这是一个极其强大的工具，任何人第一次和每次都可以从中受益。
If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, go to eightsleep.com/huberman to get up to $350 off the new Pod 5.
如果您想尝试八睡眠，请访问八睡眠.com/huberman，新款 Pod 5 最高可享受 350 美元优惠。
Eight Sleep ships to many countries worldwide, including Mexico and the UAE.
八号睡眠船运往世界各地的许多国家，包括墨西哥和阿联酋。
Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $350.
同样，访问八睡眠.com/huberman 最多可节省 350 美元。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Today's episode is also brought to us by Our Place.
今天的节目也是由我们的地方给我们带来的。
Our Place makes my favorite pots, pans, and other cookware.
我们的地方生产我最喜欢的锅、平底锅和其他炊具。
Surprisingly, toxic compounds such as PFASs, or forever chemicals, are still found in 80% of non-stick pans, as well as utensils, appliances, and countless other kitchen products.
令人惊讶的是，80% 的不粘锅以及器皿、电器和无数其他厨房产品中仍然含有 PFAS 等有毒化合物，即永久化学物质。
As I've discussed before on this podcast, these PFASs, or forever chemicals, like Teflon, have been linked to major health issues such as hormone disruption, gut microbiome disruption, fertility issues, and many other health problems.
正如我之前在这个播客中讨论过的那样，这些 PFAS 或永久性化学物质（如特氟龙）与荷尔蒙破坏、肠道微生物组破坏、生育问题和许多其他健康问题等重大健康问题有关。
So it's really important to try and avoid them.
因此，尝试避免它们非常重要。
This is why I'm a huge fan of Our Place.
这就是为什么我是《我们的地方》的超级粉丝。
Our Place products are made with the highest quality materials and are all completely PFAS and toxin-free.
我们的 Place 产品采用最优质的材料制成，完全不含 PFAS 和毒素。
I especially love their titanium Always Pan Pro.
我特别喜欢他们的钛合金Always Pan Pro。
It's the first non-stick pan made with zero chemicals and zero coating.
这是第一个采用零化学品和零涂层制成的不粘锅。
Instead, it uses pure titanium.
相反，它使用纯钛。
This means it has no harmful forever chemicals and does not degrade or lose its non-stick effect over time.
这意味着它不含永久有害的化学物质，并且不会随着时间的推移而降解或失去其不粘效果。
It's also beautiful to look at.
看起来也很漂亮。
I cook eggs in my titanium Always Pan Pro almost every morning.
我几乎每天早上都会用钛金属 Always Pan Pro 煮鸡蛋。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
The design allows for the eggs to cook perfectly without sticking to the pan.
该设计使鸡蛋能够完美烹饪而不会粘在锅上。
I also cook burgers and steaks in it, and it puts a really nice sear on the meat.
我还用它来做汉堡和牛排，它给肉带来了非常好的烤焦效果。
But again, nothing sticks to it, so it's really easy to clean, and it's even dishwasher safe.
但同样，没有任何东西粘在上面，所以它非常容易清洁，甚至可以用洗碗机清洗。
I love it, and I basically use it constantly.
我很喜欢它，而且我基本上一直在使用它。
Our Place now has a full line of titanium pro cookware that uses its first-of-its-kind titanium non-stick technology.
我们的地方现在拥有全系列的钛专业炊具，采用其首创的钛不粘技术。
So if you're looking for non-toxic, long-lasting pots and pans, go to fromourplace.com/huberman and use the code HUBERMAN at checkout.
因此，如果您正在寻找无毒、耐用的锅碗瓢盆，请访问 fromourplace.com/huberman 并在结帐时使用代码 HUBERMAN。
Right now, Our Place is having its biggest sale of the season.
目前，Our Place 正在进行本季最大规模的促销活动。
You can get up to 30% off all products now through May 12th, 2025.
从现在到 2025 年 5 月 12 日，所有产品均可享受高达 30% 的折扣。
With a 100-day risk-free trial, free shipping, and free returns, you can try Our Place with zero risk and see why more than one million people have made the switch to Our Place kitchenware.
通过 100 天无风险试用、免费送货和免费退货，您可以零风险试用 Our Place，了解为何超过一百万人改用 Our Place 厨具。
Again, that's fromourplace.com/huberman to get up to 30% off.
同样，来自ourplace.com/huberman 的折扣高达 30%。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
As I mentioned before, I love to eat, and we could talk about any of the different major food groups as an exploration of the chemistry of food.
正如我之前提到的，我喜欢吃，我们可以讨论任何不同的主要食物类别，作为对食物化学的探索。
But I think one of the more interesting ones is the combination of heat and food, right?
但我认为更有趣的之一是热量和食物的结合，对吧？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
And very often people will ask me, "Is microwaving safe?" And things like that.
人们经常会问我：“微波炉安全吗？”诸如此类的事情。
And I've done an Ask-Me-Anything recently where I said, "Yes, indeed, microwaves are safe." You probably don't want to stand right in front of it in case the mesh protector isn't as effective as it might be.
我最近做了一个“问我任何事情”，我说：“是的，微波炉确实是安全的。”您可能不想站在它的正前方，以防网状保护器没有那么有效。
But yeah, it's heating things up from the inside.
但是，是的，它正在从内部加热事物。
We have all these different ways to heat up food, and we have ways to heat food and then cool food as a way to enhance the flavor of food.
我们有所有这些不同的方法来加热食物，并且我们有加热食物然后冷却食物的方法来增强食物的味道。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
When it comes to the use of heat and food, what do we know about the use of...
当谈到热量和食物的使用时，我们对…的使用了解多少？
I imagine it was fire first.
我想首先是火。
This is a vast topic, but what are some of the interesting ways in which heat interacts with food at the chemical level that allows us to enjoy that food more?
这是一个很大的话题，但是热量与食物在化学层面上相互作用的一些有趣方式是什么，可以让我们更好地享受食物呢？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
In the anthropological literature, the focus is on increasing caloric intake and being able to consume materials that we wouldn't otherwise be able to consume as efficiently.
在人类学文献中，重点是增加热量摄入并能够消耗我们原本无法有效消耗的材料。
That's the sort of practical side.
这就是实际的一面。
But my feeling is that the use of fire wouldn't have caught on if it didn't make foods more delicious than they'd been in the first place, at the same time.
但我的感觉是，如果火的使用不能使食物变得比原来更美味，那么它就不会流行。
In fact, probably people early on learned to associate particular sensory experiences with the nutritional value of what it was they were eating, and maybe even the safety.
事实上，人们很可能很早就学会将特定的感官体验与他们所吃食物的营养价值，甚至安全性联系起来。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Because if you kill a mammoth, you've got a lot of leftovers.
因为如果你杀死一头猛犸象，你就会得到很多剩菜。
What do you do with them so that they don't spoil and make you sick later on?
您如何处理它们，以免它们变质并让您以后生病？
So the terrific thing about the application of heat to foods in general is that the heat takes the materials, of which the food is made and rearranges them.
因此，将热量应用于食品的最棒之处在于，热量吸收了制作食品的材料并重新排列它们。
And in many cases, breaks molecules down into smaller molecules that we can actually detect with our senses of taste and smell.
在许多情况下，将分子分解成更小的分子，我们实际上可以用我们的味觉和嗅觉来检测它们。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Proteins, carbohydrates, and fats.
蛋白质、碳水化合物和脂肪。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
That's what we think of as constituting food, but they're all macromolecules.
这就是我们所认为的食物的构成，但它们都是大分子。
They're way too big for us to experience directly.
它们太大了，我们无法直接体验。
One of the things about cooking that's most important is that cooking will take those macromolecules and break down enough of them to produce small molecules that we can detect with our senses of taste and smell, and enjoy simply for that reason.
关于烹饪最重要的事情之一是，烹饪会吸收这些大分子并分解足够的大分子以产生小分子，我们可以用我们的味觉和嗅觉来检测这些小分子，并因此而享受。
My feeling is that we have our senses for them to be stimulated.
我的感觉是我们有我们的感官来刺激它们。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
In many cases, even if the stimulation is borderline pleasurable or maybe even slightly unpleasurable, we still enjoy the fact that we're being stimulated, that something is going on with our senses of taste and smell.
在许多情况下，即使刺激是令人愉快的，甚至有点不愉快，我们仍然喜欢我们受到刺激，我们的味觉和嗅觉发生了一些变化。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
And cooking does that in spades.
烹饪无疑可以做到这一点。
It takes these molecules with no taste or smell and turns them into bouquets of various kinds depending on the original material.
它采用这些没有味道或气味的分子，根据原始材料将它们变成各种花束。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Yeah.
是的。
When I think about a piece of steak, and if I were to take a bite of it raw, it would taste very different cold versus room temperature.
当我想到一块牛排时，如果我生吃一口，它的味道会与室温下的非常不同。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Aww.
哇。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
And then, raw steak, which to me is not appetizing, cooked even just a bit, especially if it were seared on the outside, now becomes pretty darn good.
然后，对我来说并不开胃的生牛排，哪怕只是稍微煮熟一下，尤其是如果外面烤焦了，现在就变得非常美味了。
Cooked a little bit more like medium-rare with a really nice sear on the outside.
煮得更像是三分熟，外面的烤焦程度非常好。
I think they call it "Pittsburgh char."
我想他们称之为“匹兹堡红点鲑”。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Anyone who likes the outside of the steak really nice and charred, and the inside rare, it's a Pittsburgh char if the chef knows what they're doing.
任何喜欢牛排外面非常美味和烧焦，而里面却很稀的人，如果厨师知道他们在做什么的话，这就是匹兹堡烧焦牛排。
It's absolutely delicious.
绝对好吃。
So what's happening there?
那么那里发生了什么？
You said that heat changes the molecular structure.
你说热量会改变分子结构。
But what about those changes that allow us to taste it more, and not just differently?
但是那些让我们能够更多地品尝它而不仅仅是不同的变化呢？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Because as you said, "Raw steak is pretty bland." Most of us probably think of that as kind of gross.
因为正如你所说，“生牛排很乏味。”我们大多数人可能认为这有点恶心。
But it's also bland compared to when it's cooked.
但与煮熟时相比，它也很乏味。
What's happening?
发生什么事了？
What's being released into the steak?
牛排中释放了什么？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
So what happens is that the materials of the tissue, and in the case of meat, it's mostly protein and fat.
所以发生的情况是组织的材料，就肉类而言，主要是蛋白质和脂肪。
Those macromolecules, large molecules that are too big for our senses to register, get broken apart.
那些大分子，大分子对于我们的感官来说太大了，无法记录，会被分解。
That's because heat is energy.
那是因为热就是能量。
Energy agitates things.
能量搅动事物。
It agitates molecules at the surface of the food enough to break them apart into much smaller pieces.
它会搅动食物表面的分子，足以将它们分解成更小的碎片。
It's those pieces that we're experiencing when we take a bite.
当我们咬一口时，我们所经历的就是这些碎片。
The pieces are not only much smaller, but they're also reactive, so that they can react with each other, and they can react with oxygen in the air surrounding the food.
这些碎片不仅小得多，而且还具有反应性，因此它们可以相互反应，并且可以与食物周围空气中的氧气发生反应。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
So we end up with...
所以我们最终...
If you did an analysis of the aroma coming off of some steak tartare and coming off of a Pittsburgh char, you're going to have very little noticeable difference, even with instrumentation.
如果你对鞑靼牛排和匹兹堡红点鲑的香气进行分析，即使使用仪器，你也不会发现什么明显的差异。
But off of the steak, you'll have a tremendous amount of volatile molecules, which are the ones that our noses detect.
但从牛排中，你会发现大量的挥发性分子，这些是我们的鼻子可以检测到的。
And then, also molecules that are small enough to stimulate our taste receptors, so we have a handful, and we think of them as responding to sweet, sour, salt, bitter, and umami tastes.
然后，还有小到足以刺激我们的味觉受体的分子，所以我们有少数，我们认为它们对甜、酸、盐、苦和鲜味做出反应。
We encounter those tastes in all kinds of things in everyday life, but when you cook a piece of meat to a high temperature and do a good amount of damage to that outer molecular surface, you generate molecules that can stimulate those receptors, even though they are not sugars or salts or whatever.
我们在日常生活中的各种事物中都会遇到这些味道，但是当你在高温下烹饪一块肉并对其外分子表面造成大量损害时，你会产生可以刺激这些受体的分子，即使它们不是糖或盐或其他什么。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
What I like to think of is just the alchemy of heat.
我喜欢想到的只是热的炼金术。
You take this material, you add energy, and you transform it in ways that are delightful to us.
您采用这种材料，添加能量，然后以令我们高兴的方式对其进行改造。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
If I understand correctly, even though the molecules in meat typically wouldn't stimulate the sweet receptor, when you cook steak, it starts to stimulate the sweet receptors because of the change in those molecules.
如果我理解正确的话，即使肉中的分子通常不会刺激甜味受体，但当你烹饪牛排时，由于这些分子的变化，它开始刺激甜味受体。
You've reduced their size and you've changed their configuration, depending on which recipe you use.
您缩小了它们的尺寸并更改了它们的配置，具体取决于您使用的配方。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yes.
是的。
And you're also generating, where once you might have had the...
而且你也在创造，曾经你可能拥有......
Well, these days, our enumeration of molecules has gotten so good that who knows exactly how many are in that raw piece of meat.
好吧，如今，我们对分子的计数已经变得如此之好，以至于谁知道那块生肉中有多少分子。
But whatever that number is, it's multiplied many-fold by the application of heat, simply because it's taking those materials, breaking them apart, getting them to react with each other, and the result is just an explosion of sensory information that simply wasn't there before.
但无论这个数字是多少，它都会通过施加热量而成倍增加，因为它正在吸收这些材料，将它们分解，让它们相互反应，结果只是以前根本不存在的感官信息的爆炸。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
We have to talk about umami.
我们必须谈谈鲜味。
And not just because the name is fun to say, but this receptor seems to bind molecules that give us the sensation, at least in part, of savoriness.
不仅仅是因为这个名字说起来很有趣，而且这种受体似乎与给我们带来（至少部分）美味感觉的分子结合。
To me, few things are as delicious as the braise that comes off of meat in a cast iron pan that I would literally scrape that stuff up onto the spatula and eat it if no one's looking.
对我来说，没有什么比铸铁锅里的肉炖出来的肉更美味的了，如果没有人看的话，我会把这些东西刮到抹刀上然后吃掉。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
And anyone who thinks that sounds gross, it is absolutely delicious.
任何认为这听起来很恶心的人，它绝对是美味的。
It is like the pinnacle of why we eat protein.
这就像我们吃蛋白质的顶峰。
That's why it feels so darn delicious to me.
这就是为什么我觉得它非常美味。
The intensity of flavor per unit of whatever that stuff is so high.
无论什么东西，每单位的味道强度都非常高。
But then here's the thing.
但事情是这样的。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
If you were to wait two hours and come back and pick up one of those little black crumbs of braise and put it in your mouth, it would kind of punch you in the mouth.
如果你等了两个小时，然后回来捡起一块黑色的炖菜碎屑，然后把它放进嘴里，它就会给你的嘴打一拳。
It tastes awful, like you were licking the grill of a barbecue from two days before.
味道很糟糕，就像你在舔两天前的烤肉架一样。
Not good.
不好。
So what's going on with braise and umami?
那么红烧和鲜味是怎么回事呢？
And we can talk about a lot of non-meat ways to stimulate umami.
我们可以谈论很多非肉类的刺激鲜味的方法。
But it's such an interesting aspect of food and taste.
但这是食物和口味的一个有趣的方面。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
It is.
这是。
And something that when I started writing about cooking in the '70s, no one believed it existed except for the Japanese scientists who were living in the country where it was discovered in the first place.
当我在 70 年代开始撰写有关烹饪的文章时，除了生活在最初发现烹饪的国家的日本科学家之外，没有人相信它的存在。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
That's right.
没错。
They were the first to molecularly clone the umami receptor, as far as I know.
据我所知，他们是第一个从分子角度克隆鲜味受体的人。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
And they were also the first to claim that there was a taste sensation that was not sweet, sour, salty, or bitter, which is why they were disbelieved in the West for decades and decades.
他们也是第一个声称存在一种不甜不酸不咸不苦的味觉的人，这就是为什么他们在西方几十年来一直不被相信。
And as I say, when I started writing, that was the standard view.
正如我所说，当我开始写作时，这是标准观点。
The Japanese have this weird idea of something, a basic taste that's just simply not correct.
日本人对某些东西有一种奇怪的想法，一种根本不正确的基本品味。
I went to a couple of meetings in Boston and remembered this being debated among chemists.
我参加了波士顿的几次会议，记得化学家们对此进行了辩论。
First, I'll say that I know exactly what you mean about that flavor of something that you apparently feel guilty about enjoying, because you said you would scrape it up when no one was looking.
首先，我要说的是，我完全明白你对某种东西的味道的意思，你显然对享受这种东西感到内疚，因为你说过你会在没有人注意的时候把它刮掉。
When I was growing up, we had a family of four children.
当我长大的时候，我们有一个有四个孩子的家庭。
My mother would occasionally make an oven-baked chicken cut up into pieces.
我妈妈偶尔会把烤鸡切成块。
And the drippings would drip down to the pan and brown.
水滴会滴到锅里，变成棕色。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
And after the meal, my siblings and I would line up for a spoonful of the scrapings.
饭后，我和我的兄弟姐妹会排队买一勺刮下来的食物。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Delicious.
好吃。
I can smell it and taste it just a bit.
我能闻到它的味道，尝尝它的味道。
Yeah, anyone who's cringing at that, you have not tasted proper braise from meat.
是的，任何对此感到畏缩的人，你都没有尝过真正的红烧肉。
Assuming you consume animal proteins, it is absolutely delicious.
假设你食用动物蛋白，那绝对是美味的。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
It just takes me back.
它只是让我回来。
It's Proustian to go back to that.
回到这一点是普鲁斯特式的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
To make a long story short, the Japanese were shown to be correct by Western standards.
长话短说，按照西方标准，日本人的做法被证明是正确的。
They always knew they were correct, but by Western standards, they were proved to be correct when a receptor for glutamate was discovered in the 2000s.
他们一直都知道自己是正确的，但按照西方的标准，当 2000 年代发现谷氨酸受体时，他们被证明是正确的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Yeah.
是的。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
The early 2000s.
2000 年代初。
Finally, Western scientists were on board.
最后，西方科学家也加入了进来。
Meanwhile, cooks had been on board for a long time, because they're always looking for ways to make their food more delicious.
与此同时，厨师们已经在船上工作了很长时间，因为他们总是在寻找让食物变得更美味的方法。
When they'd heard about this, some went to Japan, and they came back, and...
当他们听说这件事后，有些人去了日本，然后他们回来了，然后……
Umami is a sensation that's a little bit difficult to describe compared to sweet, sour, salt, and bitter.
与甜、酸、盐、苦相比，鲜味是一种有点难以描述的感觉。
Savory, I think, is the word you use, and that's the sort of usual nomenclature.
我想，“咸味”是你用的词，也是一种常见的术语。
When you try to characterize it further, it's a feeling of fullness and length.
当你试图进一步描述它时，你会发现它是一种充实和绵长的感觉。
So, the flavor...
那么，味道...
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
There's just a lot of it there and it sticks with you for a while.
里面有很多东西，而且会伴随你一段时间。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
That's what we mean by length?
这就是我们所说的长度吗？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Got it.
明白了。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
I feel like it also doesn't occur just in my mouth.
我觉得它也不只发生在我的嘴里。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
I'm not very nuanced about food.
我对食物不是很细致。
I mean, I love food, but I don't consider myself a food connoisseur.
我的意思是，我喜欢食物，但我不认为自己是食物鉴赏家。
I know what I like and what I don't like.
我知道我喜欢什么，不喜欢什么。
But I feel like the taste of something with a lot of umami flavor actually spreads throughout the body.
但我觉得鲜味浓郁的东西的味道实际上遍布全身。
It's like a whole head experience.
这就像一次全脑体验。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Maybe down to the chest.
也许一直到胸部。
It's not restricted to a location on the tongue or something like that.
它并不局限于舌头上的某个位置或类似的地方。
Later, we'll talk about this myth about restricted receptors on the tongue.
稍后，我们将讨论有关舌头上受限受体的神话。
One has to wonder if, because the umami receptor stimulation is so closely tied to savoriness and protein, and because protein was presumably scarce in evolutionary history, whether or not there are some reward pathways, such as, "Oh, this is good to..." Because people had to work really hard under dangerous conditions, often to get an umami stimulation.
人们必须想知道，因为鲜味受体刺激与美味和蛋白质密切相关，而且蛋白质在进化史上可能是稀缺的，是否存在一些奖励途径，例如，“哦，这很好……”因为人们必须在危险的条件下非常努力地工作，通常是为了获得鲜味刺激。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yes.
是的。
Yeah, that's right.
是的，没错。
And I would also say that, from at least my reading of the literature, we only know a tiny bit about what's going on when we smell things and taste things.
我还想说，至少从我对文献的阅读来看，我们对闻气味和尝味道时发生的事情只知道一点点。
We know in the initial step, there's a receptor on our tongue that responds to glutamate, which is associated with this sensation.
我们知道，在第一步中，我们的舌头上有一个对谷氨酸有反应的受体，谷氨酸与这种感觉有关。
What happens after that?
之后会发生什么？
Who knows?
谁知道？
There's also the fact that glutamate is an important molecule in the body for signaling.
还有一个事实是，谷氨酸是体内信号传导的重要分子。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Who knows what kind of crosstalk there might be between the receptor on the tongue and the rest of the body.
谁知道舌头上的感受器和身体其他部位之间可能存在什么样的串扰。
People have also, in the last 10 years or so, discovered taste receptors for all the tastes in our GI tract.
在过去十年左右的时间里，人们还发现了胃肠道中所有味道的味觉感受器。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Yeah, that is so interesting and so important too.
是的，这非常有趣，也非常重要。
Maybe that's the sensation that the umami taste is much deeper.
也许这就是鲜味更深的感觉。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Is that they're in the esophagus and presumably maybe even into the stomach.
它们在食道中，甚至可能进入胃中。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Wild.
狂野。
I heard that tigers have something like 10,000-fold more umami receptors than humans, but they have no sweet receptors.
我听说老虎的鲜味受体比人类多一万倍，但它们没有甜味受体。
I don't know if that's true.
我不知道这是不是真的。
Usually, when you hear something like that, it's likely to be not completely true, but who knows?
通常，当你听到类似的话时，它可能不完全正确，但谁知道呢？
We can look it up, and someone will tell us in the comments.
我们可以查一下，有人会在评论里告诉我们。
Which, upon hearing, made me immediately want to try being a tiger for one day.
我一听，立刻就想尝试当一天老虎。
I can't even imagine how good meat tastes to carnivores that have that density of umami receptors.
我什至无法想象对于拥有如此密集的鲜味受体的食肉动物来说，肉的味道有多好。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
But it raises another question, too, which is, assuming that's true, would the absence of the sweet receptor perhaps make meat taste completely different?
但这也提出了另一个问题，即假设这是真的，甜味受体的缺失是否会使肉的味道完全不同？
In other words, is there crosstalk between these receptors, so that when you eat something that's this spoonful of braise drippings off the roasted chicken, presumably, there's some stimulation of the sweet receptors.
换句话说，这些受体之间是否存在串扰，因此当你吃从烤鸡上滴下来的一勺炖菜时，大概会对甜味受体产生一些刺激。
If you only had umami receptors, maybe it wouldn't taste good at all.
如果你只有鲜味受体，也许它的味道根本就不好。
Is the chemistry of food occurring in the mouth, and not just in the food itself?
食物的化学反应是否发生在口腔中，而不仅仅是食物本身？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Wonderful questions.
精彩的问题。
I don't know where to begin exactly, except to say that when you brown a piece of meat or just cook it to a high temperature so that the outside of the meat changes color, that color change is an indication of a group of reactions called the Maillard reactions, named after the guy who actually didn't quite address this, but he got his name associated with it.
我不知道到底从哪里开始，只能说，当你把一块肉烤成棕色，或者只是将它煮到高温，使肉的外部变色时，这种颜色变化是一组称为美拉德反应的反应的指示，以一个实际上没有完全解决这个问题的人的名字命名，但他的名字与此相关。
Anyway, the Maillard reactions are essentially reactions between fragments of proteins and fragments of carbohydrates and fats.
无论如何，美拉德反应本质上是蛋白质片段与碳水化合物和脂肪片段之间的反应。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
The reaction pathways are really complicated.
反应途径确实很复杂。
They still haven't been worked out completely, but they generate a bunch of different classes of products.
它们还没有完全解决，但它们产生了许多不同类别的产品。
Among those products are sugars.
这些产品包括糖。
So you don't start out necessarily with sugars, but if you've got proteins and fats, you can make sugars, simply with the alchemy of applying heat.
所以你不一定要从糖开始，但如果你有蛋白质和脂肪，你就可以通过加热的炼金术来制造糖。
That's part of what's going on.
这就是正在发生的事情的一部分。
I would say that, yeah, tigers are missing out because there's an interesting dimension of flavor to meat that has been cooked.
我想说，是的，老虎错过了，因为煮熟的肉有一种有趣的味道。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Interesting.
有趣。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
There's the chemistry of cooking, and then there's the chemistry of enjoying, of tasting, and consuming.
有烹饪的化学反应，还有享受、品尝和消费的化学反应。
And it turns out that that's complicated in its own right because, first of all, we're presenting our sensory apparatus with the most complex materials that they're going to encounter.
事实证明，这本身就很复杂，因为首先，我们向我们的感觉器官展示了他们将遇到的最复杂的材料。
Nature does not generate this kind of complexity.
大自然不会产生这种复杂性。
We're doing it for ourselves, and that's part, I think, of the great pleasure that we take from it.
我们是为自己做这件事，我想，这就是我们从中获得的巨大乐趣的一部分。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
But it also turns out that in the mouth, changes can take place.
但事实证明，口腔也会发生变化。
It was actually first noticed by experts in wine because they found that when they put a raw grape in their mouth to taste...
事实上，它首先被葡萄酒专家注意到，因为他们发现，当他们将生葡萄放入口中品尝时......
What are the characteristics of this particular grape, and how does that carry over into the wine?
这种特殊葡萄的特征是什么？这些特征如何体现在葡萄酒中？
What they noticed was that initially there's just the taste of the grape, but then as they sit there, other flavors begin to come.
他们注意到，最初只有葡萄的味道，但当他们坐在那里时，其他味道开始出现。
Because they were experts in wine-tasting, they were able to figure out which ones they were, and they were, some of them, molecules that you find in the finished wine.
因为他们是品酒专家，所以他们能够找出它们是什么，其中一些是你在成品酒中发现的分子。
It's just in your mouth.
它就在你嘴里。
You've just chewed it.
你刚刚咀嚼过它。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
It turns out that there are, in all kinds of foods, molecules that are called "conjugates." They're a kind of business end of the molecule, and usually attached to a sugar of some kind.
事实证明，在各种食物中都存在被称为“结合物”的分子。它们是分子的一种末端，通常附着在某种糖上。
When we put something in our mouth, and we have enzymes in our mouth, those enzymes can go to work on things like conjugates and free up the sugar from the rest of the molecule, and the rest of the molecule can be aromatic.
当我们把东西放进嘴里，并且嘴里有酶时，这些酶可以对缀合物等物质起作用，并将糖从分子的其余部分中释放出来，而分子的其余部分可以是芳香的。
It's known now that the Maillard reactions generate not only sugars but conjugates.
现在已知美拉德反应不仅产生糖，而且产生缀合物。
So there's just a lot going on, and I think one of the best arguments for enjoying your food slowly.
所以发生了很多事情，我认为这是慢慢享受食物的最佳论据之一。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Because you never know what's going to kind of show up in your mouth after 20 or 30 seconds.
因为你永远不知道 20 或 30 秒后嘴里会出现什么。
Slow down, enjoy every bite, and notice what's happening because it's often a really dynamic experience.
放慢速度，享受每一口食物，并注意正在发生的事情，因为这通常是一种真正充满活力的体验。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
We're going to have a hard time convincing many people to slow down their rate of eating.
我们将很难说服许多人放慢进食速度。
However, if you promise them a richer experience of the food, and not just that they're trying to eat less or something, which is the usual reason that people hear they should chew their food, maybe improve digestion as well, they might be incentivized to do it.
然而，如果你向他们承诺提供更丰富的食物体验，而不仅仅是他们尝试少吃东西或其他东西（这是人们听说他们应该咀嚼食物，也许还可以改善消化的常见原因），他们可能会受到激励去这样做。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
I should point out that, of all the senses, it seems that with taste and its relationship to food, we have more control over that experience.
我应该指出，在所有感官中，似乎通过味觉及其与食物的关系，我们可以更好地控制这种体验。
Let me state this differently.
让我以不同的方式表述这一点。
If I were to do a podcast on the idea that, simply by looking around the world differently, you could start to get new visual perceptual abilities.
如果我要制作一个播客，其理念是，只需以不同的方式观察世界，你就可以开始获得新的视觉感知能力。
That'd be pretty exciting.
那会非常令人兴奋。
I'm sorry, but that's not true.
抱歉，但这不是真的。
It doesn't work.
这不起作用。
You could enhance some discrimination of certain things if you were trained to look for them, but that can change your visual perceptual abilities.
如果你接受过寻找某些事物的训练，你可以增强对某些事物的辨别能力，但这会改变你的视觉感知能力。
But with taste, it sounds like we have the ability.
但凭品味，听起来我们有能力。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
So, when you say slow down, do you mean slow down the chewing?
那么，当你说放慢速度时，你的意思是放慢咀嚼速度吗？
Take pauses after bites?
咬完之后要暂停一下吗？
All of the above?
上述所有的？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah, all of the above.
是的，以上都是。
Because even after you swallow, there are residues in your mouth and at the back of your mouth, and that's what the wine experts noticed was the change in those residues.
因为即使在你吞咽之后，你的嘴里和口腔后部仍然有残留物，而这就是葡萄酒专家注意到的这些残留物的变化。
It's not that they chewed on a grape and then kept it in their mouth for a minute.
这并不是说他们咀嚼了一颗葡萄，然后把它放在嘴里一分钟。
It was just what was left over.
这只是剩下的东西。
So, the leftovers can be as delicious as the main course.
所以，剩菜可以和主菜一样美味。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
All right, I'm going to start taking pauses between at least food types.
好吧，我将开始至少在食物类型之间暂停一下。
I've sometimes had the experience of eating something particularly delicious, for instance, meat or fruit, or vegetables.
我有时有过吃一些特别美味的东西的经历，比如肉、水果、蔬菜。
I'm an omnivore, so I love all these things.
我是杂食动物，所以我喜欢所有这些东西。
But I'm so satisfied with what I just ate that I don't want something sweet right away because of the collision that occurs between foods.
但我对刚刚吃的东西太满意了，因为食物之间会发生碰撞，所以我不想立即吃甜的东西。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Am I alone in not liking dessert, but liking dessert foods on their own at a separate time?
我是唯一一个不喜欢甜点，但在不同时间单独喜欢甜点食物的人吗？
Or am I just on a desert island of experience here?
或者我只是在经验的荒岛上？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
No, I'm actually completely the same.
不，我其实是完全一样的。
I would prefer to have another half glass of wine rather than dessert, just simply to prolong the experience of the main part of the meal.
我宁愿再喝半杯葡萄酒而不是甜点，只是为了延长用餐主要部分的体验。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Desserts, sweet things, I enjoy, but not after a big meal of other things, savory things.
甜点，甜的东西，我喜欢，但不是在吃了一顿大餐之后，其他的东西，咸味的东西。
My wife, who's Japanese, says she has a separate mouth and a separate stomach for desserts, and she can go right into it after the main course.
我老婆是日本人，她说她有一个单独的嘴和一个单独的胃来吃甜点，吃完主菜就可以直接吃。
But, yeah, I prefer not to.
但是，是的，我不想这样做。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
I feel like many people eat dinner just to get to dessert.
我觉得很多人吃晚餐只是为了吃甜点。
Let's actually talk about the food order in the meal.
让我们实际谈谈用餐中的食物顺序。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Many years ago, I had a girlfriend who was from the South of France, from the Perigord.
许多年前，我有一个来自法国南部佩里戈尔的女朋友。
She grew up in what is arguably one of the food capitals of the planet.
她在可以说是地球上的美食之都之一长大。
People think French, food, Paris, but actually, people in the South of France are so serious about food that her family would spend most of the day and the night, and the meal, talking about the next meal or a previous meal.
人们以为法国、美食、巴黎，但实际上，法国南部的人们对美食是如此认真，以至于她的家人会花大部分时间白天和黑夜，还有吃饭的时间，谈论下一顿饭或上一顿饭。
They would search for mushrooms with binoculars.
他们会用双筒望远镜寻找蘑菇。
If they spotted one in the neighbor's yard, they were perplexed as to how to negotiate for that mushroom.
如果他们在邻居的院子里发现了蘑菇，他们就会困惑如何讨价还价才能获得这种蘑菇。
You couldn't actually go steal the mushroom.
你实际上不能去偷蘑菇。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
That would be like a cardinal sin.
这就像一个大罪。
They are so serious about food, every aspect of it, as you know.
正如你所知，他们对食物及其方方面面都非常认真。
We used to get into these intense arguments about the order in which one is supposed to eat food.
我们过去常常就吃饭的顺序进行激烈的争论。
And in her mind, it was soup first, because it actually prepares the gut, and then always salad last.
在她看来，首先是汤，因为它实际上是在准备肠道，然后总是沙拉。
This whole notion of eating salad at the beginning of a meal was heresy to everything that she had known and conceptualized about food.
在一顿饭开始时吃沙拉的整个想法对于她所知道的和对食物的概念来说都是异端邪说。
So I have to believe that whether one likes French food or not, they're onto something.
所以我必须相信，无论人们是否喜欢法国菜，他们都会有所作为。
That, when it comes to digestion, when it comes to being able to really taste the full array of flavors in a food, we probably should be doing soup first, then an appetizer, then an entree, and then salad last.
也就是说，当谈到消化时，当谈到能够真正品尝食物中的全部风味时，我们可能应该先做汤，然后是开胃菜，然后是主菜，最后是沙拉。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
And if we're not consuming an entire meal of that sort, that salad shouldn't be eaten at the beginning of a meal.
如果我们不吃整顿饭，那么就不应该在饭前吃沙拉。
Are they right?
他们是对的吗？
I'm pretty sure that she was right.
我很确定她是对的。
She was right about most things.
她在大多数事情上都是对的。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Very good question, and I guess my answer would depend on the audience.
非常好的问题，我想我的答案取决于观众。
And I say that because if you go to a banquet in China, everything is served simultaneously.
我这么说是因为如果你去中国参加宴会，一切都是同时上桌的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Really?
真的吗？
They just slide it all out in front of you?
他们只是把一切都滑到你面前？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
And do people eat everything in a kind of mishmash order?
人们吃所有东西的顺序都是大杂烩吗？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Or there may be phases, but you're presented with many, many different dishes at each phase.
或者可能有几个阶段，但每个阶段都会向您呈现许多不同的菜肴。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Oh, I would be so overwhelmed.
哦，我会不知所措。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
And it is overwhelming.
这是压倒性的。
You know, it's partly...
你知道，这部分是...
Well, I don't want to generalize.
好吧，我不想一概而论。
Maybe it has to do with perhaps emphasizing the abundance and generosity of the meal, rather than focusing on the pleasure that you can get from each stage in it.
也许这与强调膳食的丰富性和慷慨有关，而不是专注于你可以从其中的每个阶段获得的乐趣。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Maybe the French are more focused on the sensory experience.
也许法国人更注重感官体验。
But there are many different ways to sequence dishes in a meal.
但在一顿饭中排列菜肴的顺序有很多不同的方法。
And I think it does...
而且我认为确实如此...
The French way of doing it does make a lot of sense.
法国人的做法确实很有意义。
My family and I lived in the countryside near Toulouse for a year and ate around with the neighbors and so on.
我和我的家人在图卢兹附近的乡村住了一年，和邻居一起吃饭等等。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
And my daughter and son went to school where they were given a full hour for lunch, and it was a coursed lunch with all those different components.
我的女儿和儿子去学校，他们有整整一个小时的午餐时间，这是一顿包含所有不同成分的午餐。
So it does make sense because having the soup come early helps, among other things, partly fill your stomach so that when you then go to the main course, you don't have to eat as much in order to be satisfied.
所以这确实是有道理的，因为早点喝汤有助于部分填饱你的胃，这样当你吃主菜时，你就不必吃太多就能得到满足。
And then the salad, you know that the salad is coming, and it kind of refreshes you because the main course is usually on the heavy and rich side.
然后是沙拉，你知道沙拉来了，它会让你精神焕发，因为主菜通常是重而丰富的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Almost always.
几乎总是如此。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
A goose breast with foie gras was not uncommon in her household.
鹅胸肉配鹅肝在她家并不罕见。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yes.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
And they were a middle-class home, I should mention.
我应该提一下，他们是一个中产阶级家庭。
So it wasn't that people there were eating goose breast with foie gras because they were among the elite.
所以，那里的人吃鹅胸配鹅肝并不是因为他们属于精英阶层。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
That was the ham and cheese sandwich of the town basically.
这基本上就是镇上的火腿奶酪三明治。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Those are the local products.
这些都是当地的特产。
And the geese were probably being raised down the road, so...
鹅可能是在路边饲养的，所以......
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
So I think the salad kind of closes out the main part of the meal and refreshes you a little bit.
所以我认为沙拉可以结束这顿饭的主要部分，让你精神焕发一点。
And then, if you're going to have dessert, you're ready for it, rather than being overwhelmed by yet another rich course.
然后，如果您要吃甜点，您就已经做好了准备，而不是被另一道丰富的菜肴淹没。
I think it does make a lot of sense for that structure of a meal where you have those different courses.
我认为这对于有不同课程的膳食结构确实很有意义。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Yeah.
是的。
This notion of cleansing the palate is kind of an interesting one.
这种清洁味觉的概念是一个有趣的概念。
It's been a long time since I've been to a meal where they served a palate cleanser in between dishes.
我已经很久没有吃过他们在两道菜之间提供味觉清洁剂的饭菜了。
That's something that I think in the '80s and '90s became a little bit popular in the United States.
我认为这种做法在 80 年代和 90 年代在美国变得有点流行。
My family wasn't serving or attending those sorts of meals, but I've been to a few.
我的家人不提供或参加此类餐点，但我去过一些。
It's kind of an interesting idea.
这是一个有趣的想法。
But, molecularly, chemically speaking, is that a real thing?
但是，从分子、化学角度来说，这是真的吗？
That you're going to wash out the flavor of what you just ate so that you can prepare for the next item on the menu?
您要洗掉刚刚吃的东西的味道，以便为菜单上的下一个项目做准备吗？
Or is it more for show?
还是更多的是为了表演？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
I think it's both.
我认为两者都是。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
I do think that if you're...
我确实认为如果你...
And again, depending on the details, but palate cleansers are usually cold and not too strong in any direction.
再说一遍，取决于细节，但味觉清洁剂通常是冷的，并且在任何方向上都不会太强烈。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
A little bit tart often.
经常有点酸。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
So something cold and tart to break up a meal where you've gone from one kind of rich course, and you're about to have another rich course because it's a fancy restaurant.
所以，吃完一顿丰盛的菜肴后，你将要享用另一道丰盛的菜肴，因为这是一家高档餐厅，所以来点冷酸的东西来结束一顿饭吧。
I think that probably does make sense.
我认为这可能确实有道理。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
My next question is a bit more of a human physiology question, but I think we're all familiar with the kind of taste intensity drift.
我的下一个问题更像是一个人类生理学问题，但我认为我们都熟悉味觉强度漂移的类型。
I can't think of a better phrase.
我想不出更好的短语了。
If you are used to drinking your coffee black, and you start putting a little bit of cream in it, maybe a little bit of cream and a little bit of sugar.
如果你习惯喝黑咖啡，你就会开始在里面加一点奶油，也许是一点奶油和一点糖。
Going back to black coffee feels like a step in the really bitter direction.
回到黑咖啡感觉就像是朝着真正苦涩的方向迈出了一步。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
If you start adding more sugar or eating sweeter foods, it seems like we reset our threshold for what we consider too sweet.
如果你开始添加更多的糖或吃更甜的食物，我们似乎会重新设定我们认为太甜的阈值。
There are all sorts of health implications, negative health implications around this.
这会对健康产生各种各样的影响，对健康产生负面影响。
But, is that a real thing?
但是，这是真的吗？
Are we actually changing our threshold for what we consider bitter or sweet?
我们是否真的改变了我们认为苦或甜的阈值？
I ask this because recently I've developed a...
我问这个是因为最近我开发了...
I won't call it an addiction, but a love for cacao beans.
我不会称之为瘾，而是对可可豆的热爱。
The first time I bit into one of those, I thought, "Oh, those are bitter." Now it's one of my favorite parts of my morning, where I pop five or six of those in my mouth and munch on them.
当我第一次咬其中一个时，我想，“哦，那些很苦。”现在这是我早上最喜欢的部分之一，我把五六个放进嘴里咀嚼它们。
They taste bitter, but they taste so good, and they're kind of barky.
它们尝起来很苦，但味道很好，而且有点像树皮。
They have a bark taste to them.
它们有树皮的味道。
And I swear I can taste the polyphenols, although that's all cognitive, right?
我发誓我能尝到多酚的味道，尽管这都是认知性的，对吧？
What I just described is not uncommon for me.
我刚才描述的情况对我来说并不罕见。
What is this whole thing about thresholds for bitterness and sweetness, and do they interact?
苦味和甜味的阈值到底是什么？它们是否相互作用？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
So taste is hugely malleable as far as we can tell.
因此，据我们所知，味道的可塑性非常大。
I think this is best documented in the literature, trying to find ways to reduce the sodium content of packaged goods.
我认为这在文献中得到了最好的记录，试图找到降低包装商品钠含量的方法。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Manufacturers have been saying, long after biomedical people were saying, "We should cut back on our sodium intake.
早在生物医学界人士提出“我们应该减少钠的摄入量”之后很久，制造商就一直在说。
We would be happy to do that in our products, but our consumers don't like our products without the level of salt that we have in them." People at the Monell Chemical Senses Center in Philadelphia did some pretty systematic studies of this.
我们很乐意在我们的产品中做到这一点，但我们的消费者不喜欢我们的产品中没有我们所含的盐含量。”费城莫内尔化学感官中心的人们对此做了一些相当系统的研究。
And what they found was that you can, over time, adjust thresholds and preferences for the basic tastes.
他们发现，随着时间的推移，你可以调整基本品味的阈值和偏好。
They were focusing on salt because that was the issue at hand.
他们关注盐，因为这是当前的问题。
But there's no reason to think that that's not the case for everything, and that if you become used to a particular level of stimulation.
但没有理由认为并非所有情况都是如此，而且如果您习惯了特定水平的刺激。
Then that becomes your new normal.
然后这就会成为你的新常态。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Anything below or above that is going to stand out for being not quite enough or too much.
任何低于或高于这个值的东西都会因为不够或太多而引人注目。
So I think we're perfectly capable of training ourselves to adjust our preferences.
所以我认为我们完全有能力训练自己来调整我们的偏好。
It does take time.
这确实需要时间。
The Monell study lasted maybe a couple of months.
莫内尔研究可能持续了几个月。
It takes time.
这需要时间。
But it's certainly doable.
但这当然是可行的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。
AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens.
AG1 是一种维生素矿物质益生菌饮料，还包含益生元和适应原。
As somebody who's been involved in research science for almost three decades, and in health and fitness for equally as long, I'm constantly looking for the best tools to improve my mental health, physical health, and performance.
作为一个从事科学研究近三十年的人，并且在健康和健身领域也有同样长的时间，我一直在寻找最好的工具来改善我的心理健康、身体健康和表现。
I discovered AG1 back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since.
我早在 2012 年就发现了 AG1，那时我还没有播客，从那时起我就每天都在服用它。
I find it improves all aspects of my health, my energy, and my focus, and I simply feel much better when I take it.
我发现它改善了我的健康、精力和注意力的各个方面，而且服用它后我感觉好多了。
AG1 uses the highest quality ingredients in the right combinations, and they're constantly improving their formulas without increasing the cost.
AG1 使用最优质的成分进行正确的组合，并且在不增加成本的情况下不断改进其配方。
In fact, AG1 just launched their latest formula upgrade.
事实上，AG1刚刚推出了他们最新的配方升级。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
This Next Gen formula is based on exciting new research on the effects of probiotics on the gut microbiome, and it now includes several clinically studied probiotic strains shown to support both digestive health and immune system health, as well as to improve bowel regularity and to reduce bloating.
这种下一代配方基于益生菌对肠道微生物组影响的令人兴奋的新研究，它现在包含几种经过临床研究的益生菌菌株，这些益生菌菌株显示出支持消化健康和免疫系统健康，以及改善肠道规律性和减少腹胀。
Whenever I'm asked if I could take just one supplement, what that supplement would be, I always say, "AG1." If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to DrinkAG1.com/huberman.
每当我被问到是否可以只服用一种补充剂时，我总是说“AG1”。如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 DrinkAG1.com/huberman。
For a limited time, AG1 is giving away a free one-month supply of omega-3 fish oil along with a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2.
AG1 限时免费赠送一个月的 omega-3 鱼油以及一瓶维生素 D3 加 K2。
As I've highlighted before on this podcast, omega-3 fish oil and vitamin D3 K2 have been shown to help with everything from mood and brain health to heart health, to healthy hormone status, and much more.
正如我之前在此播客中强调的那样，omega-3 鱼油和维生素 D3 K2 已被证明对改善情绪和大脑健康、心脏健康、健康激素状态等各个方面都有帮助。
Again, that's DrinkAG1.com/huberman to get a free one-month supply of omega-3 fish oil, plus a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2 with your subscription.
再次强调，通过 DrinkAG1.com/huberman 订阅即可免费获得一个月的 omega-3 鱼油，以及一瓶维生素 D3 和 K2。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Today's episode is also brought to us by Mateina.
今天的节目也是由Mateina给我们带来的。
Mateina makes loose-leaf and ready-to-drink yerba mate.
Mateina 生产散叶和即饮马黛茶。
I've often discussed yerba mate's benefits, such as regulating blood sugar, its high antioxidant content, and the ways that it can improve digestion.
我经常讨论马黛茶的好处，例如调节血糖、其高抗氧化剂含量以及它改善消化的方式。
It also may have possible neuroprotective effects.
它还可能具有神经保护作用。
It's for those reasons, and the fact that yerba mate provides, in my opinion, the most even and steady rise in energy and focus with no crash, that yerba mate has long been my preferred source of caffeine.
正是由于这些原因，而且在我看来，马黛茶能提供最均匀、稳定的能量和注意力提升，而不会崩溃，马黛茶长期以来一直是我首选的咖啡因来源。
I also drink yerba mate because I love the taste.
我也喝马黛茶，因为我喜欢它的味道。
And while there are a lot of different yerba mate drinks out there, my absolute favorite is Mateina.
虽然市面上有很多不同的马黛茶饮料，但我最喜欢的是 Mateina。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
I'm excited to share that Mateina has recently launched a series of new flavors of their cold brew, all zero-sugar yerba mate.
我很高兴与大家分享，Mateina 最近推出了一系列新口味的冷萃咖啡，全是零糖马黛茶。
There's a raspberry flavor.
有一种覆盆子的味道。
There's a mango flavor.
有芒果味。
There's a mint flavor.
有一股薄荷味。
There's a lemon flavor, and a peach flavor, and they are absolutely incredible.
有柠檬味和桃子味，它们绝对令人难以置信。
If I had to pick one, that's my absolute favorite; it would probably be the mango or the raspberry.
如果我必须选择一个，那绝对是我最喜欢的；可能是芒果或覆盆子。
But frankly, I cannot pick just one, and I end up having basically one of each every single day.
但坦率地说，我不能只选一个，最后我基本上每天都会吃一个。
Again, all of these flavors are made with the highest quality ingredients, all organic, and again, all zero sugar.
同样，所有这些口味均采用最优质的原料制成，全部有机，而且全部零糖。
If you'd like to try Mateina, you can go to DrinkMateina.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Mateina，可以访问 DrinkMateina.com/huberman。
Again, that's DrinkMateina.com/huberman.
再说一遍，这是 DrinkMateina.com/huberman。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
I stopped eating "junk food" a long time ago, and I've totally lost interest.
我很久以前就不再吃“垃圾食品”了，我完全失去了兴趣。
In parallel to that, I enjoy strawberries and vegetables and meat and fish and eggs and rice and oatmeal so much more with each successive year.
与此同时，我逐年更加喜欢草莓、蔬菜、肉、鱼、鸡蛋、米饭和燕麦片。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
And I think it's in part because of this reshaping of what one considers flavorful.
我认为部分原因是人们对美味的重新定义。
But I also feel like my experience of food is getting richer and richer, as opposed to worse and worse.
但我也觉得我的食物体验变得越来越丰富，而不是越来越糟糕。
So it's kind of interesting and kind of counterintuitive.
所以这有点有趣，也有点违反直觉。
Do we have any evidence that if you eat foods closer to their, let's just say, in their unadulterated form, that you get more out of the taste experience than if you are combining lots and lots of flavors, which is essentially what processed foods are?
我们是否有任何证据表明，如果你吃的食物更接近它们的味道，比如说，以它们纯粹的形式，你会比结合大量的味道（本质上就是加工食品）获得更多的味觉体验？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
I can't point to chapter and verse in the literature on this, but I think it just makes common sense that if you're going to start with strawberries and then add a bunch of other things like vanilla extract and sugars, and who knows what else, in order to essentially, as processed foods try to do, just kind of wow your mouth with an overwhelming sensation that you then want to repeat rather than slowing down and enjoying the nuances.
我无法指出文献中关于这一点的章节和诗句，但我认为这是常识，如果你要从草莓开始，然后添加一堆其他东西，如香草精和糖，谁知道还有什么，为了本质上，就像加工食品试图做的那样，只是用一种压倒性的感觉让你的嘴惊叹，然后你想要重复，而不是放慢速度并享受细微差别。
The natural world gives us these amazing ingredients like strawberries and blueberries and oats, and so on.
自然界给了我们这些神奇的成分，如草莓、蓝莓和燕麦等。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
And then to take those amazing ingredients, which you can kind of savor for a minute at a time, and really enjoy, to take those ingredients and make them ingredients rather than things in themselves, and combine them with lots of other things for the purpose of stimulation rather than the purpose of appreciating and enjoying those individual components.
然后采取那些令人惊奇的成分，你可以一次品尝一分钟，真正享受，将这些成分制成成分而不是它们本身，并将它们与许多其他东西结合起来，以达到刺激的目的，而不是为了欣赏和享受这些单独的成分。
Then you're kind of giving up, I would say, most of the pleasure of eating.
我想说，那么你就放弃了大部分吃饭的乐趣。
You're just fueling yourself with stuff that is going to give you an immediate hit of flavor and then be gone.
你只是用一些能让你立即感受到味道的东西来给自己加油，然后就消失了。
And what was in that food is opaque.
食物里的东西是不透明的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
It may have been strawberries once upon a time, but it's now been masked by all these other things....
曾经可能是草莓，但现在它被所有这些其他东西掩盖了......
Meanwhile, one of the miracles of living on this planet is strawberries, and the vast range of materials that plants have gone to the trouble of preparing for the sake of pleasing us.
与此同时，生活在这个星球上的奇迹之一就是草莓，以及植物为了取悦我们而煞费苦心准备的各种各样的材料。
So to hand that responsibility or that activity over to manufacturers who are just looking to make things as cheaply and quickly as possible, I think, is a mistake.
因此，我认为，将这种责任或活动交给那些只想尽可能便宜、快速地制造产品的制造商是一个错误。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Do you drink coffee?
你喝咖啡吗？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
I do.
我愿意。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
How do you prepare your coffee?
您如何准备咖啡？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
I grind the beans and-
我把豆子磨碎然后-
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Fresh every time?
每次都很新鲜？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Is that important to the taste?
味道重要吗？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
It can be.
可以的。
It depends on where you get your beans from and how long they last.
这取决于您从哪里获取咖啡豆以及它们的保质期有多长。
But, I think so, yeah.
但是，我想是的，是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
You'll mill the beans each time?
你每次都会磨豆子吗？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
And then, you use a drip filter, a machine, a French press?
然后，你使用滴滤器、机器、法压壶？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
A drip filter.
滴滤器。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
We have this colleague of ours at Stanford, the Adler, who built the AeroPress, which I've used for years.
我们有一位在斯坦福大学的同事，阿德勒，他制造了爱乐压，我已经使用了很多年。
Long before they were involved with the podcast, I remember seeing him throwing the Aerobie Frisbee, so he's the inventor, right?
早在他们参与播客之前，我记得看到他扔 Aerobie 飞盘，所以他是发明者，对吧？
And I think that the AeroPress is an interesting idea because it sort of combines French press and filter drip, right?
我认为爱乐压是一个有趣的想法，因为它有点结合了法式压滤机和滴滤器，对吧？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
But yeah, there are actually really interesting data that coffee has some, perhaps it seems some powerful health-promoting effects, but it depends on how you brew it.
但是，是的，实际上有一些非常有趣的数据表明咖啡有一些，也许看起来有一些强大的健康促进作用，但这取决于你如何冲泡它。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
How are you brewing it?
你怎么泡它？
Not that I'm going to get you to change the way you do anything with food or drink.
我并不是要让你改变你处理食物或饮料的方式。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
I go back and forth between a metal filter and a paper filter.
我在金属过滤器和纸质过滤器之间来回切换。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah, I lived near the park where Alan Adler would fly his Aerobies, so I visited with him and chatted about the AeroPress.
是的，我住在艾伦·阿德勒 (Alan Adler) 驾驶 Aerobies 的公园附近，所以我拜访了他并谈论了爱乐压 (AeroPress)。
I liked the idea a lot.
我非常喜欢这个主意。
It seems to me you can control the flavor with it much more than you can with a drip system, simply because when it drips, it drips.
在我看来，用它来控制味道比用滴水系统更能控制，因为当它滴下来时，它就会滴下来。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
But you can hold it in the AeroPress as long as you want.
但您可以根据需要将其保留在 AeroPress 中。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
The temperature of the water is so critical with coffee.
水温对于咖啡来说非常关键。
Do you take it to a boil or not?
你把它煮沸还是不煮沸？
I know people might think, "Gosh, they're really getting down to the weeds," but the flavor of coffee is completely different if you take the water to a boil versus just getting it near a boil or cutting off the heat a moment after it starts to boil.
我知道人们可能会想，“天哪，他们真的在认真对待杂草”，但是如果你把水烧开，咖啡的味道与刚刚煮沸或在水开始沸腾后立即关火的味道完全不同。
Completely different beverage.
完全不同的饮料。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
In my opinion.
在我看来。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
I actually prefer drip coffee with water right off the boil.
事实上，我更喜欢用刚烧开的水冲泡咖啡。
So I've tried all the different stages, and that's just my preference.
所以我尝试了所有不同的阶段，这只是我的偏好。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
The important thing is to know that the temperature does make a difference, and the pleasure you get from it is going to vary depending on the temperature of the water that you use.
重要的是要知道温度确实会产生影响，并且您从中获得的乐趣会根据您使用的水温而变化。
So it's worth knowing that, and then playing around and seeing what you like best.
因此，值得了解这一点，然后尝试一下，看看你最喜欢什么。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
That's the experience side of it.
这就是体验的一面。
Chemically, what's happening when you brew coffee?
从化学角度来说，冲泡咖啡时会发生什么？
What are some of the interesting coffee chemistry factoids?
有哪些有趣的咖啡化学事实？
I'm obsessed with this stuff, as you can tell.
正如你所知，我对这些东西很着迷。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yes.
是的。
First of all, there's the grind size makes a huge difference, because what you're essentially doing is extracting extractable materials from the solids.
首先，研磨尺寸会产生巨大的差异，因为您本质上所做的是从固体中提取可提取的材料。
In a typical cup of coffee, you're extracting maybe 20% of the original weight of the coffee.
在一杯典型的咖啡中，您可能会提取咖啡原始重量的 20%。
It's not that much, except that it's all the good stuff.
没有那么多，但都是好东西。
And the longer you extract, the more you extract, and the larger the molecules you're able to remove.
提取的时间越长，提取的量就越多，能够去除的分子就越大。
Those larger molecules are the ones that tend to be tannic, astringent, and bitter.
那些较大的分子往往带有单宁、涩味和苦味。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Really?
真的吗？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yes.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
The longer you let the beans or the ground beans be exposed to the hot water, the larger molecules you pull off.
让豆子或磨碎的豆子接触热水的时间越长，分离出的分子就越大。
The large molecules are the ones that give it that kind of punch-you-back-in-the-mouth feeling, the tannic.
大分子给它带来了一种回味无穷的感觉，即单宁酸。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
It's interesting.
这很有趣。
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
And bitter.
而且很苦。
In fact, it's kind of a fun experiment.
事实上，这是一个有趣的实验。
If you love coffee and you're interested in this kind of thing, what you can do is set up a filter with coffee in it and line up four or five different cups, and then pour the water in, and then every 30 seconds or so, move it from cup to cup.
如果你喜欢咖啡并且对这种事情感兴趣，你可以做的就是设置一个过滤器，里面装着咖啡，然后排成四五个不同的杯子，然后倒入水，然后每隔30秒左右，从一个杯子移到另一个杯子。
You can see what comes out early, middle, and late.
你可以看到早、中、晚会发生什么。
What comes out late are these larger molecules.
后来出现的是这些较大的分子。
Late is kind of synonymous, or you can think of using hotter water as the temperature equivalent of brewing later, and later as you're getting more stuff out.
迟到是一种同义词，或者你可以认为使用更热水作为相当于稍后冲泡的温度，然后当你取出更多东西时。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
The word that comes to mind is "stale," coffee that's been in the coffee pot a long time.
我想到的词是“不新鲜的”，即咖啡壶里放了很长时间的咖啡。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
That seems to be the flavor you're describing when you pull these large molecules out.
当你把这些大分子拉出来时，这似乎就是你所描述的味道。
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Well, I would say that.
嗯，我会这么说。
Unfortunately, not so common anymore, the old coffee urn that you would have at conferences and things like that.
不幸的是，会议上使用的旧咖啡壶和类似的东西已经不那么常见了。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
The one where you pump the...
那个你抽水的地方...
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Some people will know what we're talking about.
有些人会知道我们在说什么。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
And the coffee has been in there for a couple hours probably.
咖啡可能已经在那里放了几个小时了。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
That to me is stale coffee, and that's changes in the smaller aromatic molecules as well as the larger ones.
对我来说，这就是不新鲜的咖啡，这是较小的芳香分子和较大的芳香分子的变化。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
I think the take-home lesson is that these little details make a difference.
我认为最重要的教训是这些小细节会产生影响。
If you're a stickler for coffee just the way you want it, then doing some of these experiments to see what's on either side of the coffee that you brew, usually is worth knowing about.
如果您坚持按照自己想要的方式喝咖啡，那么做一些实验来看看您冲泡的咖啡两侧有什么，通常是值得了解的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
I think everyone could afford to slow down their experience of consuming food for a variety of reasons.
我认为每个人都可以因为各种原因放慢进食速度。
Some of which you mentioned, like just straight up better taste and taste experience.
您提到的其中一些，例如直接更好的口味和味觉体验。
And also with beverages.
还有饮料。
I consume an ungodly amount of caffeine each day.
我每天消耗大量的咖啡因。
I'm very caffeine tolerant.
我对咖啡因非常耐受。
I actually can't drink coffee in the morning.
事实上，我早上不能喝咖啡。
But in the afternoon, I absolutely love it.
但到了下午，我真的很喜欢它。
It tastes aversive to me early in the day.
一大早它的味道就令我厌恶。
I don't know why.
我不知道为什么。
I drink yerba mate early in the day and throughout the morning, and then in the afternoon, I like a cup of coffee.
我在一天的早些时候和整个早上都喝马黛茶，然后在下午，我喜欢喝一杯咖啡。
The same cup of coffee tastes absolutely delightful in the afternoon.
同样一杯咖啡在下午的味道绝对令人愉悦。
I don't know what it is.
我不知道那是什么。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
That's mysterious to me too.
这对我来说也很神秘。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Yeah.
是的。
Can't claim pregnancy either.
也不能声称怀孕。
Because people who are pregnant report feeling kind of nauseous to certain tastes at one time of day versus another.
因为怀孕的人报告说，在一天中的某个时间和另一个时间对某些味道感到有点恶心。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Is there anything else we can do with our coffee and tea?
我们还可以用咖啡和茶做些什么吗？
The tannic flavor or the experience of a tea being too tannic is awful.
单宁的味道或茶单宁过多的体验很糟糕。
It tastes metallic.
有金属味。
But when tea is done right, it's very smooth.
但如果泡得好，茶会非常顺滑。
What is this tannic smooth thing in the context of tea?
茶中这种顺滑的单宁是什么？
Is it the same thing?
是一样的吗？
Large molecules, small molecules?
大分子、小分子？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah, it's basically the same thing.
是的，基本上是一样的。
It also depends on what's left in the tea leaf.
它还取决于茶叶中残留的成分。
So some teas are just, by definition, going to be more tannic than others because they have been treated differently in order to make the dried tea.
因此，根据定义，有些茶会比其他茶含有更多的单宁，因为它们在制作干茶时经过了不同的处理。
I have three or four tea bushes in my backyard.
我的后院有三四棵茶树。
And so, I make tea every year.
所以，我每年都会泡茶。
Whenever the new growth comes out, that's what you make tea with.
每当新芽长出来时，你就用它来泡茶。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
What kind of tea do you make?
你泡什么茶？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
That's the fun thing about having the bushes.
这就是拥有灌木丛的有趣之处。
I make all kinds, and I play around with them and see what happens if I just pluck a leaf and brew that, or pluck a leaf, let it wither in the sun, and then brew that, or do the various processing techniques.
我制作各种各样的东西，我会摆弄它们，看看如果我摘下一片叶子并酿造它，或者摘下一片叶子，让它在阳光下枯萎，然后酿造它，或者进行各种加工技术，会发生什么。
They give you oolong, which is kind of medium manipulated.
他们给你乌龙茶，这是一种中等程度的操纵。
Then black tea is very heavily manipulated, but it's a whole spectrum, and it's a lot of fun to play with.
然后红茶被大量操纵，但它是一个完整的范围，而且玩起来很有趣。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
And you're just putting these directly into hot water.
你只需将它们直接放入热水中即可。
Or you put it in a metal tea strainer?
或者你把它放在金属滤茶器里？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
For most of them, what you have to do first is dry them.
对于大多数来说，你首先要做的就是将它们晾干。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
When I make tea, yeah.
当我泡茶的时候，是的。
It's just leaves into a pot and then pour the tea out.
只需将茶叶放入壶中，然后将茶倒出即可。
I make small pots, so that I can try lots of different things.
我制作小盆，这样我就可以尝试很多不同的东西。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
How do you dry them?
你如何干燥它们？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
That's another variable.
这是另一个变量。
You can let them air dry.
你可以让它们风干。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Just out on the counter?
就在柜台上吗？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
I live in San Francisco.
我住在旧金山。
It's not very warm, so it takes a while for them to dry on the counter.
天气不是很热，所以它们需要一段时间才能在柜台上干燥。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
I put them in the toaster oven.
我把它们放进烤箱里。
I'll dry them.
我会把它们擦干。
A lot of Chinese green teas are even dried in a wok.
许多中国绿茶甚至在炒锅中干燥。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
So I will do that.
所以我会这么做。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
You heat them up in the wok?
你把它们放在锅里加热吗？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Toaster oven.
烤面包机烤箱。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
As somebody who's obsessed with yerba mate...
作为一个痴迷于马黛茶的人......
Since I was a kid, I've been drinking yerba mate.
我从小就喝马黛茶。
I love, love, love it, as people know.
正如人们所知，我爱、爱、爱它。
I'm fascinated by this.
我对此很着迷。
How much space does one of these plants take up?
其中一株植物占据多少空间？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Well, so it totally depends.
嗯，这完全取决于。
I bought mine originally as quarter-meter tall, not exactly seedlings because they are bushes, and so they get lignified pretty quickly.
我最初买的有四分之一米高，不完全是幼苗，因为它们是灌木丛，所以它们很快就会木质化。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
What's lignified?
什么是木质化？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Solid.
固体。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Sorry.
抱歉。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Like a tree.
就像一棵树。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah, a solid base.
是的，基础扎实。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Oh, like ligand.
哦，就像配体一样。
Okay, yeah.
好吧，是的。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Lignified.
木质化。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
One of the cool things about being alive these days is that it used to be really hard to get your hands on these plants, but now it's very easy.
如今生活的一件很酷的事情是，过去很难接触到这些植物，但现在很容易。
You can go online.
你可以上网。
You can find many different sources at many different maturities.
您可以找到许多不同期限的不同来源。
But the thing about making tea from tea plants is that what you're doing is plucking off the new growth.
但用茶树泡茶的问题在于，你所做的就是摘掉新的生长部分。
That's what you make tea from.
这就是你泡茶的原料。
It's not the older leaves, it's the very newest ones, which are the most metabolically active and have the most interesting stuff in them, and interesting for us when we play with them.
不是老叶子，而是最新的叶子，它们新陈代谢最活跃，里面有最有趣的东西，当我们玩它们时，它们对我们来说很有趣。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
You don't want to make tea from small plants.
你不想用小植物泡茶。
You want to let them grow bigger.
你想让他们长大。
You can control the size from then on up.
从那时起您就可以控制尺寸。
They're often grown in the shade for flavor purposes.
它们通常出于风味目的而生长在阴凉处。
And so, growing them in the shade is actually fine.
因此，在阴凉处种植它们实际上是可以的。
You don't have to have a sunny spot on your windowsill, although it'll grow faster in the sun.
你的窗台上不一定要有阳光充足的地方，尽管它在阳光下会长得更快。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
But shade-grown tea is actually preferred.
但遮荫茶实际上是首选。
They're a species of camellia.
它们是山茶花的一种。
They're not that demanding.
他们要求没那么高。
They need acidic soil.
他们需要酸性土壤。
But apart from that, they're very easy to grow.
但除此之外，它们很容易生长。
I've had mine now for almost 20 years, and making tea from them is a great way to keep them in check.
我的茶已经有近 20 年了，用它们泡茶是控制它们的好方法。
Otherwise, they would take over the yard.
不然的话，他们就会占领院子。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Amazing.
太棒了。
Is it called tasseography?
这叫tasseography吗？
Do you do that too?
你也这样做吗？
The reading of tea leaves.
茶叶的阅读。
I'm just joking.
我只是开玩笑。
Tea leaf reading is probably never going to make it onto this podcast.
茶叶阅读可能永远不会出现在这个播客中。
I'll probably upset some people by saying that.
我这么说可能会让一些人感到不安。
I'm not convinced that reading tea leaves is indicative of much.
我不相信阅读茶叶能说明什么。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Yeah.
是的。
Okay.
好的。
I'm glad we're in agreement about that.
我很高兴我们在这一点上达成了一致。
As long as we're exploring whether longstanding lore within kitchens is reflective of some real chemistry, as was the case with umami or the French with eating salads last.
只要我们探索厨房中长期存在的传说是否反映了某种真正的化学反应，就像鲜味或法国人最后吃沙拉的情况一样。
There's this idea that you shouldn't have tea at the end of a meal.
有一种观点认为饭后不应该喝茶。
Is that true?
这是真的吗？
Or is it that it somehow hardens the food in your stomach?
或者它是否以某种方式使你胃里的食物变硬？
Or is this just complete nonsense?
或者这完全是无稽之谈？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Sounds to me in the direction of complete nonsense.
在我看来完全是胡说八道。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Great.
太棒了。
Because I like tea at the end of a meal.
因为我喜欢饭后喝茶。
I like chamomile tea after a meal.
我喜欢饭后喝甘菊茶。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Well, and herbal teas, especially, because I could make a just-so story about the phenolic compounds in tea cross-linking things in your stomach or something like that, because polyphenols do that.
嗯，尤其是花草茶，因为我可以编一个关于茶中的酚类化合物交联你胃里的东西或类似的东西的故事，因为多酚就是这样做的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
But I can't imagine that it makes a difference.
但我无法想象这会带来什么不同。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
So polyphenols cross-link proteins?
那么多酚可以交联蛋白质吗？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
For those who aren't familiar, cross-linking proteins is a way of changing their configuration and generally makes them more rigid.
对于那些不熟悉的人来说，交联蛋白质是改变其结构的一种方法，通常会使它们变得更加刚性。
In laboratories, when we use fixatives like formaldehyde or paraformaldehyde, we're taking a tissue, usually a slice of brain tissue, which is very floppy, and you need to be less floppy so you can work with it.
在实验室中，当我们使用甲醛或多聚甲醛等固定剂时，我们会取出一块组织，通常是一块脑组织，它非常松软，你需要不那么松软，这样你才能使用它。
So you put it into paraformaldehyde or formaldehyde, or glutaraldehyde.
所以你把它放入多聚甲醛或甲醛，或戊二醛中。
All these things create what are called Schiff bases.
所有这些都产生了所谓的希夫碱。
Do I have that right?
我有这个权利吗？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Okay.
好的。
Remembering my chemistry...
记住我的化学反应...
And they cross-link the proteins so that, then you can pick that thing up like a...
它们使蛋白质交联，这样你就可以像……一样拿起那个东西。
Well, it's a very thin slab.
嗯，这是一块非常薄的板。
I would not want to do that to the food in my gut.
我不想对我肠道里的食物这样做。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Right.
对。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
But nowadays, we hear that polyphenols are like the greatest thing.
但如今，我们听说多酚是最伟大的东西。
So what's the deal with polyphenols?
那么多酚有什么关系呢？
Should we consume them separately from proteins?
我们应该将它们与蛋白质分开食用吗？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
No, I don't think so, because the thing about polyphenols, the reason that they do this cross-linking, is the fact that they're reactive.
不，我不这么认为，因为多酚的问题，它们进行交联的原因是它们具有反应性。
What that means is, you put them in with almost anything else, and they're going to get bound.
这意味着，你将它们与几乎任何其他东西放在一起，它们就会受到束缚。
Then you're going to swallow them, and they're going to make it down to your lower GI tract.
然后你会吞下它们，它们会进入你的下胃肠道。
There, they may be freed up because whatever they're bound to gets to be digested, and so on.
在那里，它们可能会被释放，因为无论它们注定要消化什么，等等。
But there, it's not a bad thing necessarily.
但在那里，这不一定是坏事。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
In fact, it's probably a good thing.
事实上，这可能是一件好事。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
But the thing about polyphenols, early on in the process, if you think about what would happen if, for example, you take milk and add some wine to it, and let it sit, it'll curdle.
但是关于多酚的事情，在这个过程的早期，如果你考虑一下会发生什么，例如，你拿牛奶并添加一些酒，然后让它静置，它就会凝结。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
That's because the polyphenols are cross-linking the milk proteins.
这是因为多酚使牛奶蛋白质交联。
That's basically the kind of thing that's happening inside us.
这基本上就是我们内心发生的事情。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Years ago, there was a semi-popular diet, this was in the early 90s, that argued that you shouldn't combine carbohydrates and proteins, that you should actually eat them separately.
几年前，有一种半流行的饮食习惯，那是在 90 年代初，它认为不应该将碳水化合物和蛋白质结合起来，实际上应该分开吃它们。
I've also heard it said that you want to eat fruit before a meal or away from a meal, but not after a meal, because it can give you digestive issues.
我还听说过，你想在饭前或饭后吃水果，但不要在饭后吃，因为它会给你带来消化问题。
I'm sure people differ tremendously in terms of what they can consume.
我确信人们在消费方面存在巨大差异。
I'm actually one of these people.
我其实就是这些人中的一员。
If I have a stomachache, it means something is seriously wrong.
如果我肚子痛，就意味着出了严重的问题。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
I can eat everything except metal shavings, and my stomach doesn't hurt.
除了金属屑我什么都可以吃，而且胃也不疼。
I don't get headaches or stomachaches.
我不头痛或胃痛。
I get other things, but I don't get those.
我得到了其他东西，但我没有得到那些。
Some people are very sensitive to food combinations.
有些人对食物组合非常敏感。
They get stomachaches really easily.
他们真的很容易肚子痛。
So, regardless of one's sensitivity to different foods, are there certain foods that it would make sense to keep separate if you have digestive issues, or bloating, or just a gurgling stomach, this kind of thing, or worse?
那么，无论一个人对不同食物的敏感性如何，如果您有消化问题，或腹胀，或只是胃部咕噜咕噜响，诸如此类，或更糟糕的情况，是否有某些食物值得分开存放？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
My understanding is...
我的理解是...
Well, first of all, I know for a fact that we have cycled through every possible permutation of these theories over the course of the last 150 years, with none of them actually being touted now as the answer.
嗯，首先，我知道一个事实，在过去的 150 年里，我们已经循环了这些理论的每一种可能的排列，但现在没有一个真正被吹捧为答案。
To me, what that says is there is no "the answer" for this kind of question, and that it really does depend on individual physiology, and what people can tolerate for their own particular reasons.
对我来说，这意味着这类问题没有“答案”，它确实取决于个人的生理机能，以及人们出于自己的特定原因可以忍受的程度。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
I don't think there are any principles by which you can choose to combine or not combine foods that would make a difference to your health.
我认为没有任何原则可以让您选择混合或不混合食物来影响您的健康。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Also, we're eating so many different things so many times a day that I think it would be really hard to tease out any particular relationships like this.
另外，我们每天要吃很多不同的东西，所以我认为很难梳理出这样的特定关系。
Even if they do exist, they probably exist only for subpopulations and not for the world at large.
即使它们确实存在，也可能只存在于亚人群中，而不存在于整个世界。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
So translated, what I'm hearing is you have to figure out what works for you.
如此翻译，我听到的是你必须弄清楚什么对你有用。
It doesn't sound like you believe in one particular nutrition plan or diet according to any particular science.
听起来您并不相信根据任何特定科学的特定营养计划或饮食。
But it does sound like you...
但听起来确实像你...
Leaning toward the idea that certain diets, for lack of a better word, will work better for different people.
由于缺乏更好的词，倾向于认为某些饮食对不同的人效果更好。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah, I guess I would certainly say that it would depend on the individual.
是的，我想我肯定会说这取决于个人。
I'm not sure that I would buy in necessarily to the idea of an optimal diet in the first place because, unless optimal included, tremendously varied.
我不确定我是否一定会首先接受最佳饮食的想法，因为除非包括最佳饮食，否则差异很大。
Which is the opposite of optimal.
这与最优相反。
It's making sure to try a lot of different things all the time rather than hewing to one particular approach.
确保始终尝试许多不同的事情，而不是坚持一种特定的方法。
I think we don't know enough to say anything definitive.
我认为我们还不够了解，无法做出任何明确的说法。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Can we talk about the ever problematic onions and garlic?
我们能谈谈一直有问题的洋葱和大蒜吗？
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
There's a lot of chemistry around onions and garlic.
洋葱和大蒜有很多化学反应。
Most notably, the crying caused by onions.
最值得注意的是，洋葱引起的哭泣。
What is the basis of the crying caused by onions, and how do we mitigate it?
洋葱引起哭声的原因是什么？我们该如何缓解？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Plants in that family, the allium family, so onions and garlic are close relatives.
该植物属于葱科植物，因此洋葱和大蒜是近亲。
The way that they defend themselves from animals that might want to eat them...
他们保护自己免受可能想吃掉他们的动物的方式......
And they're not fruits, they're actually roots or root-like structures that are meant to give rise to the next generation.
它们不是水果，它们实际上是根或类似根的结构，旨在产生下一代。
To the plant, they're very important.
对于植物来说，它们非常重要。
They're defended with these sulfur molecules that, in the intact root, are inactive.
它们受到这些硫分子的保护，而在完整的根中，这些硫分子是不活跃的。
The moment the tissues are disrupted, enzymes get to work and generate from those precursors kind of chemical warfare cylinders.
一旦组织被破坏，酶就会开始工作，并从这些前体中产生化学战圆筒。
The cylinders are opened, and we end up with these molecules that can fly through the air.
圆柱体被打开，我们最终得到了这些可以在空气中飞行的分子。
They're volatile.
它们很不稳定。
We don't have to actually touch the onion.
我们不必真正接触洋葱。
They come to us, these molecules.
这些分子来到我们身边。
They're meant to do exactly what they do, which is make us miserable.
他们注定要做他们所做的事，这让我们痛苦。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
The fact that they're volatile means that you can protect yourself by doing a couple of different things.
它们不稳定的事实意味着您可以通过做一些不同的事情来保护自己。
You can wear goggles, which prevent volatile molecules from getting to your eyes.
您可以佩戴护目镜，以防止挥发性分子进入您的眼睛。
You can do the cutting interspersed with just a rinse in water because the molecules are being generated at the surface that you're generating by doing the cutting.
您可以在进行切割时仅用水冲洗，因为通过切割产生的分子是在表面产生的。
If, occasionally, you rinse those surfaces, then the volatiles go away, and they don't bother you as much.
如果偶尔冲洗这些表面，挥发物就会消失，并且不会对您造成太大困扰。
You can also get non-pungent varieties of onions, which exist.
您还可以获得现有的不刺激的洋葱品种。
Maui onions are the best known of those.
毛伊岛洋葱是其中最著名的。
They just don't make those sulfur molecules, so that they don't irritate us.
他们只是不制造那些硫分子，这样就不会刺激我们。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
I'm reminded that our colleague at Stanford, Dr. Sean Mackey, who runs the pain division.
我想起了我们在斯坦福大学的同事肖恩·麦基博士，他负责疼痛部门。
When he was on this podcast, he said that despite many years of traditional training in medicine, and thinking that a lot of people's reported gut issues were perhaps psychosomatic and all this stuff, that he himself had the experience of getting a lot of gut pain at one point in his life and not knowing what the origin was.
当他在这个播客上时，他说，尽管接受了多年的传统医学训练，并且认为很多人报告的肠道问题可能是心身问题之类的，但他自己也有过在一生中经历过多次肠道疼痛的经历，但不知道根源是什么。
It seemed like it was after certain meals and not others.
似乎是在某些饭菜之后，而不是其他饭菜之后。
He did all the necessary self-experimentation to pinpoint that it was onions that were causing these, what sounded like, pretty severe gastric issues and pain.
他做了所有必要的自我实验，以确定是洋葱引起了这些听起来相当严重的胃问题和疼痛。
And it was the histamines caused by ingesting onions, right?
这是摄入洋葱引起的组胺，对吧？
These little packets of molecules that cause inflammation.
这些引起炎症的小分子包。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
That in part converted him to this idea that when people talk about their negative experiences with certain foods, they're not making this stuff up, and that it's very likely they have some sort of food sensitivity.
这在一定程度上使他产生了这样的想法：当人们谈论他们对某些食物的负面经历时，他们并不是在编造这些东西，而且他们很可能对某种食物敏感。
I think now the landscape of "traditional medicine" is starting to become more open to this.
我认为现在“传统医学”的前景开始变得更加开放。
But in hearing what you just described, these warfare molecules coming out of onions stimulating a negative...
但听你刚才描述的，这些从洋葱中出来的战争分子会刺激负面的……
They're designed to create an aversive reaction in animals that would eat them, and here we are eating these things.
它们的设计目的是让吃它们的动物产生厌恶反应，而我们现在正在吃这些东西。
And then the idea that it would be bad for certain people at first seemed shocking to the standard medical community.
然后，一开始这对某些人不利的想法似乎让标准医学界感到震惊。
But now one of the leading experts in the world of pain medicine is like, "Hey, listen, histamines from onions are a problem for people with gut issues sometimes, not always."
但现在止痛医学领域的一位顶尖专家说，“嘿，听着，洋葱中的组胺有时对肠道有问题的人来说是一个问题，但并非总是如此。”
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
I think there's an interesting kind of intersection of food chemistry, individual experience, and where medicine is headed.
我认为食品化学、个人经验和医学发展方向之间存在着一种有趣的交叉点。
It's not crazy.
这并不疯狂。
These are chemicals coming out of food.
这些是从食物中产生的化学物质。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Makes sense, right?
有道理，对吧？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
And maybe the most prominent example of an aversive chemical being generated in foods we love is capsaicin in peppers.
也许我们喜爱的食物中产生令人厌恶的化学物质的最突出的例子是辣椒中的辣椒素。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Hot peppers, the ones that are spicy, are spicy because they contain a particular molecule that is designed to be aversive to animals, so that animals won't chew up those fruits before the seeds can be dispersed.
辣椒之所以辣，是因为它们含有一种动物厌恶的特殊分子，这样动物就不会在种子散布之前咀嚼这些水果。
Interestingly, the animals that the plant depends on for dispersal are birds.
有趣的是，植物传播所依赖的动物是鸟类。
And birds don't respond to capsaicin.
鸟类对辣椒素没有反应。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Really?
真的吗？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
This is a molecule that's designed specifically for mammals, like us, to get us to leave those fruits alone.
这是一种专为像我们这样的哺乳动物设计的分子，可以让我们远离这些水果。
Some people can handle tremendously noxious levels of capsaicin?
有些人可以承受有毒水平的辣椒素吗？
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Other people are very sensitive and can't handle hardly any.
其他人都非常敏感，几乎无法处理任何事情。
It's all part of this larger picture of the world giving us these materials to feed ourselves, and our working out our negotiations with those materials so that we can enjoy them and be nourished by them.
这都是世界大局的一部分，为我们提供这些材料来养活我们自己，我们与这些材料进行谈判，以便我们能够享受它们并从中得到滋养。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
I want to explore spiciness a bit more in a moment, but are there any data that there are genetic differences among people in terms of the density of the capsaicin receptor is a substance P receptor, or something like that?
我想稍后再深入探讨一下辣味，但是有没有数据表明人与人之间存在遗传差异，比如辣椒素受体、P 物质受体或类似的密度？
Or sweet receptors or umami receptors, that would perhaps not predict, but partially explain why some people are really averse to spice, other people pursue spice, and why some foods perhaps just don't taste good to certain people, or even give them gut issues, or this sort of thing?
或者甜味受体或鲜味受体，这可能无法预测，但部分解释了为什么有些人真的讨厌香料，其他人追求香料，以及为什么某些食物可能对某些人来说味道不好，甚至给他们带来肠道问题，或类似的事情？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
So the best studied aspect of this is taste rather than smell.
因此，对此研究最好的方面是味道而不是气味。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Smell is difficult because there are so many different receptors and thousands and thousands of smells.
嗅觉很困难，因为有太多不同的受体和成千上万种气味。
But taste is a relatively confined subject.
但味道是一个相对狭窄的话题。
There are what are called "super-tasters." And this has to...
有些人被称为“超级品味者”。而这必须...
Eventually, I'm sure, with genetics.
最终，我确信，与遗传学有关。
But the way this category of people was first defined was by simply counting taste buds on the tongue.
但这类人最初的定义方式是简单地计算舌头上的味蕾。
They had a particular area in which they could look, and they stained the taste buds and then simply counted them, enumerated them on thousands of different people.
他们有一个可以观察的特定区域，他们将味蕾染色，然后简单地数一下，将它们列举在数千个不同的人身上。
What they found was, as you might expect, there are some people with very few in a given area, and others where they're so crowded together you can barely count them.
他们发现，正如你所预料的那样，在某个特定区域，有些人的人数很少，而另一些人则挤在一起，你几乎无法数清。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Wow.
哇。
So high pixel density, low pixel density.
所以像素密度高，像素密度低。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Some people have the iPhone 1.
有些人拥有 iPhone 1。
Some people have the iPhone, whatever we're on now, of 16 or something, or 13 density.
有些人拥有 iPhone，无论我们现在使用什么，密度都是 16 或其他，或者 13。
Wow.
哇。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
So clearly, that's going to affect the way you experience whatever you put in your mouth.
很明显，这会影响您放入口中的任何东西的体验方式。
The investigators gave the name "super-taster" to the people who had the highest density of receptors.
研究人员将受体密度最高的人称为“超级味觉者”。
It's unfortunate because the term does have connotations that really don't belong.
不幸的是，这个词确实具有不属于的含义。
It's just some people have lots of taste receptors, and other people don't have very many.
只是有些人有很多味觉感受器，而另一些人则没有很多。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Well, I guess the question is, do the people who have a higher density of taste receptors have better taste discrimination?
嗯，我想问题是，味觉感受器密度较高的人是否具有更好的味觉辨别能力？
Can they tell two foods apart or beverages apart on a dimension of sweetness, that somebody with lower density receptors can't?
他们能否在甜味方面区分两种食物或饮料，而受体密度较低的人却做不到？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
That's a really good question.
这是一个非常好的问题。
I don't know the exact answer to that.
我不知道确切的答案。
But what I do know is that you would think that a super-taster sounds great.
但我所知道的是，你会认为超级品酒师听起来很棒。
That's what I want is to be able to taste more.
这就是我想要的，就是能够品尝更多。
In fact, super-tasters are especially sensitive to bitterness and to acidity to the point that foods that other people enjoy just fine, they find aversive simply because the sensation is overwhelming.
事实上，超级味觉者对苦味和酸味特别敏感，以至于其他人很喜欢的食物，他们却感到厌恶，仅仅是因为这种感觉压倒性的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
I used to teach a course at the French Culinary Institute, no longer with us in New York.
我曾经在法国烹饪学院教授一门课程，现在不再在纽约了。
We would often have chefs in the course, along with just ordinary people.
我们的课程中经常会有厨师和普通人。
We would do a taste test, a proxy for counting the number of taste buds.
我们会进行味觉测试，作为计算味蕾数量的指标。
You can give people a very bitter substance at a known level on a little piece of filter paper and then ask people to rate, "Does this taste extremely bitter, kind of bitter, or what bitter?"
你可以在一小片滤纸上给人们一种已知水平的非常苦的物质，然后要求人们评价，“这个味道是极苦，有点苦，还是什么苦？”
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
The chefs would always be upset if they did not score as super-tasters because super means you're a really good taster.
如果厨师没有获得超级品尝者的分数，他们总是会感到不安，因为超级意味着你是一个非常好的品尝者。
But talk to them, and you find out that it's often difficult for chefs to match the flavor preferences of their customers.
但与他们交谈后，您会发现厨师通常很难满足顾客的口味偏好。
One of the reasons for that can be that if you're a super-taster as a chef, you're going to dial down all kinds of things that, to an ordinary taster, may leave the food tasting bland.
原因之一可能是，如果你是一位超级品尝者，作为一名厨师，你就会减少各种东西，而对于普通品尝者来说，这些东西可能会让食物尝起来平淡无奇。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
It's something that there's no right thing to be.
这是没有正确的事情。
But if you're a professional in the food world, you need to know what you are and how to compensate for it, if you need to.
但如果您是食品界的专业人士，您需要知道自己是什么以及如何弥补（如果需要的话）。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。
Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.
去年，在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我成为了 Function 成员。
Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health.
Function 提供 100 多项高级实验室测试，为您提供整个身体健康状况的关键快照。
This snapshot offers you insights into your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more.
此快照可让您深入了解心脏健康、激素健康、免疫功能、营养水平等。
They've also recently added tests for toxins such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics, and tests for PFASs or forever chemicals.
他们最近还增加了毒素测试，例如有害塑料中的 BPA 暴露，以及 PFAS 或永久化学物质的测试。
Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are experts in the relevant areas.
Function 不仅提供对您的身心健康至关重要的 100 多种生物标志物的测试，还分析这些结果并提供相关领域专家顶级医生的见解。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood.
例如，在我第一次使用 Function 进行测试时，我发现我的血液中汞含量升高。
Function not only helped me detect that, but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption.
功能不仅帮助我发现了这一点，而且还提供了如何最好地降低汞含量的见解，其中包括限制我的金枪鱼消费。
I'd been eating a lot of tuna while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC and acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification.
我吃了很多金枪鱼，同时也努力吃更多的绿叶蔬菜，并补充 NAC 和乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都可以支持谷胱甘肽的产生和解毒。
And I should say, by taking a second Function test, that approach worked.
我应该说，通过进行第二次功能测试，这种方法奏效了。
Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important.
全面的血液检测至关重要。
There are so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test.
有很多与您的心理和身体健康相关的事情只能通过血液检查来检测。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
The problem is, blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated.
问题是，血液检测一直非常昂贵且复杂。
In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost.
相比之下，Function 的简单性和成本水平给我留下了深刻的印象。
It is very affordable.
这是非常实惠的。
As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.
因此，我决定加入他们的科学顾问委员会，我很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。
If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Function，可以访问 functionhealth.com/huberman。
Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman Podcast listeners.
Function 目前有超过 250,000 人的等候名单，但他们正在为 Huberman 播客听众提供早期访问服务。
Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.
同样，可以通过 functionhealth.com/huberman 提前访问 Function。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Do you salt your fruit?
你给水果加盐吗？
A few years ago, there was this trend of salting fruit.
几年前，有一种用盐腌水果的趋势。
Remember that?
还记得吗？
I tried it.
我试过了。
I love fruit.
我喜欢水果。
I love salt.
我喜欢盐。
I wasn't such a fan of salting fruit, but I don't want to dismiss it right off the bat.
我不太喜欢用盐腌水果，但我不想立即放弃它。
Does it do anything interesting to fruit in a way that should have me return to that?
它是否会以某种方式产生任何有趣的结果，让我回到那个状态？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
No. I think it's a completely individual thing.
不，我认为这完全是个人的事情。
My grandmother would salt her grapefruit.
我祖母会给她的柚子加盐。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Oh, no. We would put sugar on our grapefruit when we were kids.
哦，不。当我们还是孩子的时候，我们会在柚子上加糖。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Sucrose, okay.
蔗糖，可以。
She would salt her grapefruit.
她会给她的柚子加盐。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
She would salt her grapefruit.
她会给她的柚子加盐。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
And it turns out, we know now, that in fact, salt and bitter are kind of opposing sensations.
事实证明，我们现在知道，事实上，盐和苦是一种相反的感觉。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
You can actually diminish the sensation of bitterness by upping the salt.
事实上，你可以通过增加盐的含量来减少苦味。
So she was making it less bitter without adding sugar, which to her was important.
因此，她在不加糖的情况下减少了苦味，这对她来说很重要。
She used the artificial sweetener of the day in her tea in the morning.
她早上在茶中使用了当天的人造甜味剂。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
That's interesting.
这很有趣。
I know people who put a tiny bit of salt in their coffee to take the edge off.
我认识一些人，他们会在咖啡里加一点盐来消除咖啡里的苦味。
Meaning to take the bitterness out.
意思是把苦涩去掉。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
It makes sense.
这是有道理的。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
It does.
确实如此。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Based on the chemistry, this push-pull of bitter and salty taste.
根据化学原理，苦味和咸味的推拉作用。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Pretty much everything in the nervous system is push-pull.
神经系统中的几乎所有东西都是推拉的。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
And that goes, by the way, for things like beer.
顺便说一句，这也适用于啤酒之类的东西。
Some people will add a pinch of salt to their beer.
有些人会在啤酒中加少许盐。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
The only place in the world where I enjoy beer is in Munich, where they serve beer...
世界上我唯一喜欢啤酒的地方是慕尼黑，那里供应啤酒......
Well, maybe it's the schnitzel that they're...
好吧，也许他们就是炸肉排……
I love that stuff.
我喜欢那个东西。
But they'll come around with a heater, and they'll heat your beer so that it's room temperature.
但他们会带着加热器来加热你的啤酒，使其达到室温。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Ah.
啊。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
It completely changes the taste.
它完全改变了味道。
The bubbles are small in those beers.
这些啤酒中的气泡很小。
They taste to me just a little bit sweeter.
对我来说，它们的味道有点甜。
I asked them about this, and the idea that you would drink a cold beer to them was like, "What are you talking about?" You might as well tell an American that they should have their apple pie with spaghetti on top or something.
我问他们这个问题，你给他们喝一杯冰啤酒的想法就像是，“你在说什么？”你不妨告诉一个美国人，他们应该吃苹果派，上面放意大利面什么的。
It's crazy.
太疯狂了。
Let's talk about alcohol.
我们来谈谈酒精吧。
Even though I'm not a drinker, I know people enjoy a little bit of wine, spirits, or beer.
尽管我不喝酒，但我知道人们喜欢喝一点葡萄酒、烈酒或啤酒。
I suppose as long as people aren't alcoholics and they're of age, small amounts of consumption are probably okay.
我想只要人们不是酗酒者并且他们是成年人，少量饮酒可能是可以的。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Zero is better, but...
零更好，但是...
So let's talk about wine and beer.
那么我们来谈谈葡萄酒和啤酒。
What's the brief history of this?
这件事的简史是怎样的？
When did people start fermenting fruit and hops, and this whole business of creating poison to ingest?
人们什么时候开始发酵水果和啤酒花，以及制造毒物来摄入的整个过程？
Because it tastes good and gets them a little bit inebriated?
因为味道好而且让他们有点醉？
What is this?
这是什么？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
This is actually an area where we're learning more every year because people, especially at archaeological sites, are pushing dates back and so on, and finding evidence for this kind of thing.
这实际上是我们每年都在了解更多的领域，因为人们，特别是在考古遗址，正在推迟日期等等，并寻找此类事情的证据。
The ability to detect residues in pots is just amazing these days.
如今，检测花盆中残留物的能力令人惊叹。
But my guess is, and it's been argued, that we have been enjoying alcohol since before we were homo sapiens.
但我的猜测是，而且有人争论，我们从成为智人之前就开始享受酒精了。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Really?
真的吗？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yes.
是的。
That primates, when you observe them, will go after fermenting fruit and enjoy it.
当你观察灵长类动物时，它们会寻找发酵的水果并享受它。
And seek out and pick those fruits and not others.
寻找并采摘那些水果而不是其他水果。
It's not a literature I keep up with, but I bet that there are some behavioral studies as well.
这不是我关注的文献，但我敢打赌也有一些行为研究。
And to suggest whether or not the ingestion of the fruit is actually having an effect on their coordination, for example.
例如，表明水果的摄入是否实际上对他们的协调产生了影响。
I bet there are studies like that.
我敢打赌有这样的研究。
So we've been enjoying alcohol before we were homo sapiens.
所以我们在成为智人之前就已经开始享受酒精了。
In the archaeological record, the dates have been pushed back now to the very beginnings of agriculture, and in many different places.
在考古记录中，这些日期现在已经被推迟到农业的起源，并且在许多不同的地方。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
So in China and the Middle East.
在中国和中东也是如此。
It's just an attractive possibility that probably did simply start with collecting a bunch of fruit, not getting around to eating it right away.
这只是一个有吸引力的可能性，可能只是从收集一堆水果开始，而不是立即吃掉它。
It begins to smell interesting, and you try it, and it does things.
它开始闻起来很有趣，你尝试一下，它就会起作用。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Humans daring other humans to try things.
人类敢于让其他人尝试一些事情。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Which I think is also how chocolate was discovered, or the possibilities for chocolate.
我认为这也是巧克力的发现方式，或者巧克力的可能性。
Cacao beans are the seeds in a fruit, and the current thinking is that the fruits were gathered for the fruit, and the seeds, which are large, were simply thrown in a pile near the fire.
可可豆是水果中的种子，目前的想法是，人们为了获得水果而采集了可可豆，而将大种子简单地堆放在火边。
There were enough residues of the fruit on the seeds for those residues to ferment, and that's the first step in making chocolate.
种子上有足够的水果残留物，可以让这些残留物发酵，这是制作巧克力的第一步。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
With respect to alcohol, alcohol has, as you mentioned, a long history.
关于酒精，正如你提到的，酒精有着悠久的历史。
I've heard it said that despite so much fascination and money spent on different wines, depending on the make, the label, and the year.
我听说过，尽管人们对不同的葡萄酒有着如此多的兴趣和金钱，但具体取决于品牌、标签和年份。
In particular, how the grapes were that year, depending on how the weather was that year and the soil, and so much goes into this.
特别是那一年的葡萄怎么样，取决于那一年的天气怎么样，土壤怎么样，等等。
It's a huge industry.
这是一个巨大的产业。
But every once in a while, there'll be a study published where they'll do a blind taste test, and some of the most experienced, AKA expert, wine drinkers won't be able to discern the finest wine or near-finest wine from a far more trivial, inexpensive wine.
但每隔一段时间，就会有一项研究发表，他们会进行盲品测试，一些最有经验的、也就是专家的葡萄酒饮用者将无法从更平凡、更便宜的葡萄酒中辨别出最好的葡萄酒或近乎最好的葡萄酒。
That always seems to send everyone into disarray for a couple of weeks, and then everyone goes right back to distributing their wine consumption according to their income and what they perceive to be the better wine.
这似乎总是让每个人在几周内陷入混乱，然后每个人都会根据自己的收入和他们认为更好的葡萄酒来分配他们的葡萄酒消费量。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
It's kind of a wild foray into human psychology.
这是对人类心理学的一次疯狂尝试。
If this is true, that these expert wine drinkers can't discern a $20 bottle of wine from a $2,000 bottle of wine, and yet they insist on returning to the practice of preferentially buying and consuming more expensive wines if they have the means.
如果这是真的，那么这些专业的葡萄酒饮用者就无法区分一瓶 20 美元的葡萄酒和一瓶 2,000 美元的葡萄酒，但他们仍然坚持在有能力的情况下优先购买和消费更昂贵的葡萄酒。
That says all sorts of things about humans and the way we place value on things.
这说明了关于人类的各种各样的事情以及我们赋予事物价值的方式。
What I want to know is whether the more expensive wines are truly better from the perspective of taste, and through the lens of, let's say, a novice and an expert wine drinker?
我想知道的是，从口味的角度来看，从新手和专家的角度来看，越贵的葡萄酒是否真的越好？
What's the deal?
这是怎么回事？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
So this is really complicated in all kinds of interesting ways.
所以这在各种有趣的方面都非常复杂。
I think to begin with, it's true that people have done things like serve expensive red wines alongside white wines that had been dyed red, and asked experts to judge and comment on them, and the experts being fooled by the food coloring.
我想，首先，人们确实做了一些事情，比如把昂贵的红酒和染成红色的白葡萄酒放在一起，请专家来评判和评论，而专家们却被食用色素愚弄了。
So I think it's, in large part, to begin with a matter of what we're expecting to happen when we taste something.
所以我认为，在很大程度上，首先要考虑当我们品尝某种东西时我们期望发生什么。
If we have expectations, then those expectations are going to influence our perception.
如果我们有期望，那么这些期望就会影响我们的看法。
There are a couple of wonderful books by a neurobiologist named Gordon Shepherd on exactly these subjects.
一位名叫戈登·谢泼德（Gordon Shepherd）的神经生物学家写了几本关于这些主题的精彩书籍。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
It's a complicated loop.
这是一个复杂的循环。
We have expectations.
我们有期望。
We taste something.
我们品尝一些东西。
The expectations play into what we think we experience, and our conclusions from that experience, which is no knock on the wines.
这些期望会影响我们认为自己经历过的事情，以及我们从经历中得出的结论，这并不是对葡萄酒的批评。
It's just the fact of our imperfect nature as sensory beings.
这只是我们作为感官生物的不完美本质的事实。
Then, when it comes to the wines themselves and the kind of variation that you find from different kinds of wine makers, locations, weather, and treatment during the wine-making process, all those different things, if you work at it, you can train yourself to notice minute differences.
然后，当谈到葡萄酒本身，以及你发现不同类型的酿酒师、地点、天气和酿酒过程中的处理方式的差异时，所有这些不同的事情，如果你努力，你可以训练自己注意到微小的差异。
Just as you can train yourself to notice minute differences in all kinds of other things that we care about.
就像你可以训练自己注意到我们关心的其他各种事物中的微小差异一样。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Art connoisseurship, for example, is knowing something about the history of art and about the materials, and that kind of thing.
例如，艺术鉴赏力是对艺术史和材料等的了解。
They all play into our judgment.
它们都会影响我们的判断。
What we're talking about when we're talking about whether a wine is better than another.
当我们谈论一种葡萄酒是否比另一种更好时，我们在谈论什么。
It's a judgment.
这是一个判断。
If you care to know, the more you know about a particular material, the better you're able to either appreciate it or depreciate it, depending.
如果您想知道，您对某种特定材料了解得越多，您就越能欣赏它或贬低它，具体取决于。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
And wine is just fascinating material.
葡萄酒就是令人着迷的材料。
It's made every year from all kinds of different grapes in all kinds of different parts of the world by all kinds of different people.
它每年由世界各地不同的人用各种不同的葡萄酿制而成。
They all taste kind of different depending on all those different factors.
根据所有这些不同的因素，它们的味道都有所不同。
If you're interested in those kinds of distinctions, and if you get pleasure from taking a sip and saying, "Ah, yeah, that was a warm year in that vineyard and tastes a little riper than the other bottle that I have in my cellar," that's great.
如果你对这些区别感兴趣，并且如果你喝了一口后很高兴说：“啊，是的，那是那个葡萄园里温暖的一年，尝起来比我地窖里的另一瓶酒成熟一点，”那就太好了。
That means you're using your human capacities to the utmost.
这意味着你正在最大限度地发挥你的人类能力。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
If you're just drinking to drink, not so much.
如果你只是为了喝酒而喝酒，那就不用那么多了。
So I think it depends not only on the product, but the consumer.
所以我认为这不仅取决于产品，还取决于消费者。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Like so many domains of life, it sounds like curiosity lends itself to a deeper and better relationship with something.
就像生活中的许多领域一样，听起来好奇心有助于与某些事物建立更深入、更好的关系。
A guest on this podcast, who himself was a comedian, said exactly what you said.
这个播客的一位嘉宾本人就是一位喜剧演员，他所说的正是你所说的。
He said, which is only to say that you agree, that "The more you learn about something, the way a movie was made or visual art or a song, the more you come to appreciate it, with one exception: comedy.
他说，这只是说你同意，“你对某件事了解得越多，比如电影的制作方式、视觉艺术或歌曲的方式，你就越能欣赏它，但有一个例外：喜剧。
You either think something's funny or not.
你要么觉得某件事有趣，要么觉得不好笑。
You can learn about the process that the comedian went through.
您可以了解这位喜剧演员经历的过程。
You can learn about the context, and if it's not funny to you, it's not going to become funny." So it seems to be one exception in the universe of experiences.
你可以了解背景，如果你觉得不好笑，它就不会变得好笑。”因此，这似乎是经验世界中的一个例外。
But even though we weren't talking about food, I think he would totally agree with you on this point, which is a perfect segue for my next question, which is about cheese.
但即使我们不是在谈论食物，我认为他在这一点上完全同意你的观点，这是我下一个关于奶酪的问题的完美延续。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
When you walk into a cheese shop in, say, Denmark or in Northern Europe, do you like it or do you feel overwhelmed?
当您走进丹麦或北欧的一家奶酪店时，您喜欢它还是感到不知所措？
Because for those who have, they know it's intense.
因为对于那些经历过的人来说，他们知道这很激烈。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
It's one of my favorite things, actually.
事实上，这是我最喜欢的事情之一。
It's something that I learned to like when our family lived in France for a year, and I decided, "You know, the French make a lot of cheese.
当我们一家人在法国生活了一年后，我开始喜欢上这种东西，我决定，“你知道，法国人生产很多奶酪。
I should learn something about that." And I went to a little trailer at one of the farmer markets in the little village we were living in, and in my broken French said, "I would like to learn about cheese." I got a 10-minute lecture on how Americans could never appreciate cheese properly, but then, "Okay, I'll tutor you."
我应该在这方面学习一些东西。”我去了我们居住的小村庄的一个农贸市场的一辆小拖车，用我蹩脚的法语说：“我想了解奶酪。”我听了一个 10 分钟的讲座，内容是美国人如何永远无法正确地欣赏奶酪，但随后，“好吧，我来辅导你。”
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
I had a wonderful year-long, every week, a session with this cheesemaker who was bringing...
我每周都与这位奶酪制造商度过了愉快的一年，他带来了……
She herself did not make most of the cheeses she sold, but she would sell what was proper seasonally for that place.
她出售的大部分奶酪都不是她自己制作的，但她会出售适合该地区季节性的奶酪。
Anyway, I learned a tremendous amount.
不管怎样，我学到了很多东西。
I fell in love with the diversity.
我爱上了多样性。
Starting with basically the same material, maybe two or three different animals, kinds of milks, but starting with the same bland material, and ending up with this tremendous range of flavors is a tribute to human ingenuity to be able to come up with that kind of diversity.
从基本相同的材料开始，也许是两三种不同的动物、不同种类的牛奶，但从相同的温和材料开始，最终得到如此巨大的口味范围，这是对人类创造力的致敬，能够想出这种多样性。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
How long has cheese been made and consumed by humans?
人类制作和消费奶酪已有多久了？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Since apparently very early in the domestication of animals, maybe even before animals were fully domesticated.
因为显然在动物驯化的早期，甚至可能在动物被完全驯化之前。
So again, we're talking 7,000 to 8,000 years ago.
再说一次，我们谈论的是 7,000 到 8,000 年前。
In the case of dairy products, that's pretty much in the Central Asian area.
就乳制品而言，这几乎是在中亚地区。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Can we talk about the chemistry of cheese and fermentation?
我们能谈谈奶酪和发酵的化学原理吗？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Yeah.
是的。
First, a question about a specific cheese.
首先，关于特定奶酪的问题。
If one looks online, which is always a dangerous thing to do, if you're in search of real information, you have to be very discerning.
如果你在网上查找，这总是一件危险的事情，如果你正在寻找真实的信息，你必须非常有洞察力。
There's this idea that certain cheeses, in particular Parmesan cheeses, are so rich with the amino acid tyrosine that they create...
有一种观点认为，某些奶酪，特别是帕尔马干酪，富含氨基酸酪氨酸，因此可以产生......
Because tyrosine is the amino acid precursor to dopamine, they create a mild high of sorts.
因为酪氨酸是多巴胺的氨基酸前体，所以它们会产生轻微的兴奋感。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Now this could also be that people just really enjoy the taste or both.
现在这也可能是人们真的很喜欢这种味道，或者两者兼而有之。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
But makes sense at some level.
但在某种程度上是有道理的。
What's known about the chemistry of cheeses and the experience of cheeses?
关于奶酪的化学成分和奶酪的体验，我们了解多少？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Well, the thing that makes cheese much more interesting than milk is the fact that microbes have been living in it and on it for weeks or months or years, and slowly breaking down the proteins and fats, and generating these small molecules that we were talking about before that have flavor that give us the sensations of taste and smell.
嗯，让奶酪比牛奶更有趣的事实是，微生物已经在奶酪中和上面生活了数周、数月或数年，慢慢分解蛋白质和脂肪，并产生我们之前讨论过的这些小分子，这些小分子具有给我们味觉和嗅觉的味道。
The longer that process goes on, for the most part, the more of those breakdown products there are and the richer and more varied the flavor is.
在大多数情况下，这个过程持续的时间越长，分解产物就越多，味道就越丰富、越多样化。
Now you can sometimes get very strong-flavored cheeses very quickly.
现在，有时您可以非常快速地获得味道非常浓郁的奶酪。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Camembert is an example of a cheese like that, where in the cheesemaking process, you essentially encourage the changes to happen very rapidly.
卡门培尔奶酪就是此类奶酪的一个例子，在奶酪制作过程中，您本质上鼓励变化非常迅速地发生。
But if you dial back on the process and let it take longer, you end up with a much more diverse array of molecules.
但如果你回溯这个过程并让它花费更长的时间，你最终会得到更加多样化的分子阵列。
In the case of Parmesan, those crystals that you end up with in cheeses that are two, three years old, which are crunchy, and they're the sign of authenticity.
就帕尔玛干酪而言，那些存放了两三年的奶酪中的晶体，口感松脆，是正宗奶酪的标志。
You know that this cheese is actually that old, and it's worth paying double the price that you would pay for a young version.
你知道这种奶酪实际上已经很老了，而且值得支付两倍于新奶酪的价格。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Those are usually tyrosine or other amino acid derivatives that have been broken off of the protein chains, and then, because the cheese has slowly been dehydrating, they've become insoluble and begin to crystallize out.
这些通常是酪氨酸或其他氨基酸衍生物，已从蛋白质链上断裂，然后，由于奶酪慢慢脱水，它们变得不溶并开始结晶。
That's why they're a sign of the process of aging and also the time of aging.
这就是为什么它们是衰老过程和衰老时间的标志。
The thing about it, and for me, the question mark is that tyrosine was there already in the proteins.
对我来说，问题在于蛋白质中已经存在酪氨酸。
So, is having it crystallize out somehow making it more immediately available to have an effect on us?
那么，让它以某种方式结晶出来是否可以使其更立即地对我们产生影响？
We don't have to digest the protein anymore now.
我们现在不必再消化蛋白质了。
It just pops right into us the moment we put it in our mouths.
当我们把它放进嘴里的那一刻，它就突然出现在我们的脑海里。
Maybe that has something to do with the effect that people are reporting.
也许这与人们报道的效果有关。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
When smoke flavors are added to cheese, is it through actual smoking process?
当奶酪中添加烟熏味时，是通过实际的烟熏过程吗？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yes.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
If it's authentic?
如果是正品的话？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
If it's authentic, yeah.
如果是正品的话就可以了
The cheeses have been kept in a room with something smoldering, and that was often in the old days, and still to some extent these days, kind of like curing hams.
奶酪被保存在一个有阴燃物的房间里，这在过去很常见，但在今天仍然在某种程度上，有点像腌制火腿。
Bugs are going to want to enjoy that really rich, nutritious material.
虫子会想要享受这种真正丰富、有营养的物质。
And so, you have to ward them off, and smoke is a good way to do it.
所以，你必须抵御它们，而吸烟是一个很好的方法。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
That makes sense.
这是有道理的。
So to keep bugs away, you fill the room with smoke, and then you end up with food that tastes smoky.
因此，为了驱除虫子，你需要在房间里充满烟雾，然后你吃到的食物就会有烟熏味。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
And then you tell people that it tastes good.
然后你告诉人们味道很好。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
I'm not a fan of smoke.
我不喜欢抽烟。
I don't know why.
我不知道为什么。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Maybe it's because most smoky flavors seem to come from a kind of...
也许是因为大多数烟熏味似乎来自一种......
I feel like it tastes chemical to me.
我觉得它对我来说有化学味道。
It doesn't taste like smoke.
它的味道不像烟。
It tastes like smoke generated from drywall mixed with some Styrofoam.
它的味道就像是干墙与一些聚苯乙烯泡沫塑料混合产生的烟雾。
It's not a nice, organic, in the real sense of the word, "natural flavor" to me.
对我来说，这不是真正意义上的“天然风味”，而是一种美好的、有机的。
It tastes chemical.
有化学味道。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
No, I know exactly what you mean.
不，我完全明白你的意思。
And I also think that most smoked foods are over-smoked.
我还认为大多数熏制食品都熏过度了。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
That ends up being the only flavor that the food has, and instead of being a kind of in-the-background flavor, so...
这最终成为食物的唯一味道，而不是一种背景味道，所以......
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
What about in bourbons and things like that?
波本威士忌之类的怎么样？
When people get really excited about a smoky bourbon?
当人们对烟熏波本威士忌感到真正兴奋时？
Is that, "Why would you do that?" Because I can't imagine that the bugs were going to get into...
就是“你为什么要这么做？”因为我无法想象这些虫子会进入...
Well, bugs like ferment, right?
嗯，虫子喜欢发酵，对吧？
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Actually, one great way to attract bugs to your picnic is to have vinegar there.
事实上，吸引虫子来野餐的一个好方法就是在野餐中放醋。
They love the smell of vinegar.
他们喜欢醋的味道。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yes.
是的。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah, in the case of barrels for distilled beverages, that's as far as I can tell, just a completely cultural thing.
是的，就蒸馏饮料桶而言，据我所知，这完全是一种文化。
In order to make barrels, you have to heat them in order to make the wood pliable.
为了制造木桶，你必须加热它们以使木材变得柔韧。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Probably someone in the process of making barrels discovered that if it burns out of control for a few seconds, that may not be such a bad thing 10 years down the line.
也许有人在制造木桶的过程中发现，如果它燃烧失控几秒钟，那么十年后这可能并不是一件坏事。
It's certainly not essential to the flavor of alcohols, and a lot, for example, whiskeys may be marketed as having been aged in used sherry casks.
这对于酒精的味道当然不是必需的，例如，很多威士忌可能会以在用过的雪利酒桶中陈酿的方式进行销售。
You don't get the toasting that you get if you're making fresh barrels.
如果你制作新鲜的桶，你就不会得到烘烤的效果。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
I think it's a matter of taste, and also just the skill with which that flavor has been incorporated into whatever the food or drink is.
我认为这是一个味道的问题，也只是将这种味道融入到食物或饮料中的技巧的问题。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
On the topic of fermentation, our colleague...
关于发酵的话题，我们的同事...
I seem to be mentioning a lot of our colleagues, but we've got a lot of spectacular colleagues at Stanford.
我似乎提到了我们的很多同事，但我们在斯坦福大学有很多出色的同事。
Justin Sonnenburg, and to be fair, his wife Erika, have also contributed critically to this work.
贾斯汀·索南伯格（Justin Sonnenburg）以及他的妻子埃里卡（Erika）也对这项工作做出了重要贡献。
They have made discoveries essentially that consuming low-sugar fermented foods on a daily basis can lower markers of inflammation, even more so than increasing one's fiber intake, which is itself interesting.
他们发现，每天食用低糖发酵食品可以降低炎症标志物，甚至比增加纤维摄入量更有效，这本身就很有趣。
What have you learned about fermentation chemistry and fermentation as a human practice for health benefits?
关于发酵化学和发酵作为人类健康益处的实践，您了解了什么？
Sure, for taste, but just as a thing?
当然，为了品味，但只是作为一个东西？
Fermentation's a pretty wild thing that we would do this.
发酵是一件非常疯狂的事情，我们会这样做。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Well, so my sense is that it began...
嗯，所以我的感觉是它开始了......
We were talking earlier about alcohol.
我们之前谈论过酒精。
It began with just observation.
它始于观察。
You have fruits that are overripe, and they're sitting on the forest floor.
你的水果已经熟透了，它们躺在森林的地面上。
They sit long enough, and they begin to smell different and look different and fizz and all kinds of things.
他们坐的时间足够长，他们开始闻起来不同，看起来也不同，发出嘶嘶声和各种各样的东西。
And that's interesting.
这很有趣。
So my sense is that fermentation has been discovered essentially by every population on Earth, including the Arctic, where you think it might take a while for things to go on.
所以我的感觉是，地球上的每个人基本上都发现了发酵，包括北极，你认为那里的事情可能需要一段时间才能继续下去。
But in fact, products that are translated into English as stinkfish are among the most prized of the foods in the Inuit regions of the pole.
但事实上，翻译成英语的臭鱼产品是极地因纽特人地区最珍贵的食物之一。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
How do they prepare the stinkfish?
他们如何准备臭鱼？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Essentially, by letting it sit.
本质上，就是让它静置。
So that's one of the appeals of fermentation is you don't have to do a whole lot.
所以发酵的吸引力之一就是你不需要做很多事情。
You just catch the food, whatever it is, and put it in a container of some kind.
你只需抓住食物，无论它是什么，然后将其放入某种容器中。
Some stinkfish are made simply by digging a pit and burying it, and covering it over.
有些臭鱼是简单地挖一个坑，埋起来，然后覆盖起来就制成的。
Then there's a connoisseurship of these foods.
然后就是对这些食物的鉴赏力。
It's a lot of fun to go back and read the accounts of explorers to these regions.
回去阅读探险家对这些地区的记录是很有趣的。
The locals are trying to show the greatest hospitality by serving them foods that they can't bear even to get near.
当地人试图向他们提供他们甚至不敢靠近的食物，以示最热情的款待。
Salmon eggs, another example, are highly prized, but after they've been fermented.
另一个例子是，鲑鱼卵非常珍贵，但经过发酵后。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
This is caviar.
这是鱼子酱。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Caviar.
鱼子酱。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
One of the most expensive foods on the planet.
地球上最昂贵的食物之一。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Exactly.
正是如此。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
And not just for kind of for show reasons.
不仅仅是为了表演的原因。
The omega-3 content of caviar is off the charts, and there are other micronutrients in caviar that make it...
鱼子酱的 omega-3 含量超乎想象，鱼子酱中还含有其他微量营养素，使其...
These are the sturgeon eggs, typically, right?
这些通常是鲟鱼卵，对吧？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yes.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Production of which almost disappeared 20 years ago, and now it is booming because people are now farming these fish.
20 年前，这种鱼的产量几乎消失，而现在，由于人们开始养殖这些鱼，这种鱼的产量正在蓬勃发展。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
The fish were endangered.
这些鱼濒临灭绝。
They're now farming them all over the place and trying caviar from different species that had never been tried before.
他们现在在各地养殖鱼子酱，并尝试以前从未尝试过的不同物种的鱼子酱。
That's actually part of what I would say about fermentation these days as well.
这实际上也是我现在所说的发酵的一部分。
Is that once the formerly isolated populations on the Earth began communicating with each other and sharing expertise and knowledge of these materials, which has happened hugely in the last 20 years or so.
一旦地球上以前孤立的人群开始相互交流并分享这些材料的专业知识和知识，这种情况在过去 20 年左右的时间里发生了巨大的变化。
Local traditional ways of doing things have not only spread to other parts of the world but also gotten people to ask the question, "Well, if you can do this kind of fermentation with this raw material, what about doing it with a different raw material?"
当地的传统做法不仅传播到了世界其他地方，还让人们提出这样的问题：“如果你能用这种原料进行这种发酵，那么用不同的原料来做怎么样？”
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
So, miso was traditionally made with soybeans.
因此，味噌传统上是用大豆制成的。
Now it's being made with peas in Northern Europe.
现在它在北欧用豌豆制成。
And just on and on and on.
就这样一直持续下去。
Which I think is both tremendously difficult to keep up with, but also tremendously exciting because it means that we're now seeing how traditional food materials can be transformed by the action of microbes that we kind of know about, but only know about in very specific contexts.
我认为这既非常难以跟上，但也非常令人兴奋，因为这意味着我们现在看到传统食品材料如何通过我们所了解的微生物的作用而改变，但只在非常特定的情况下了解。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
I think the next couple of decades are going to bring forth just all kinds of new foods that will be initially strange and maybe off-putting because they're new, but also they're going to be this era's versions of miso and soy sauce and beer and wine and so on.
我认为未来几十年将会出现各种各样的新食品，这些食品最初会很奇怪，甚至可能会令人反感，因为它们是新的，但它们也将成为这个时代的味噌、酱油、啤酒和葡萄酒等。
Exciting times ahead.
激动人心的时刻即将到来。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Yeah.
是的。
We forget that we're still evolving.
我们忘记了我们仍在不断发展。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Especially when we hear about all the problems of the world, we forget that we're still evolving.
尤其是当我们听到世界上的所有问题时，我们忘记了我们仍在不断发展。
That some of the technologies around food and drink are not just creating less healthy versions, but as you pointed out, are creating new hybrids of information, new hybrids of actual foods.
围绕食品和饮料的一些技术不仅创造了不太健康的版本，而且正如您所指出的，正在创造新的信息混合体、新的实际食物混合体。
It's not all about returning to ancient ways.
这并不全是为了回到古老的方式。
The conversations like this, of slowing down, and one's intake of food.
像这样的谈话，关于放慢速度，以及一个人的食物摄入量。
And chewing and appreciating, and thinking about the preparation of food, not just eating out of packages, one hopes.
人们希望，咀嚼、欣赏、思考食物的准备，而不仅仅是吃包装中的食物。
I think if there's one thing that the vegans, the vegetarians, the omnivores, and the carnivores all agree on is that eating fewer processed foods is better.
我认为，如果纯素食者、素食者、杂食动物和肉食动物都同意一件事的话，那就是少吃加工食品更好。
That's the one thing they all seem to agree on.
这是他们似乎都同意的一件事。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
I have a question about you.
我有一个关于你的问题。
Actually, I have several questions about you.
事实上，我有几个问题想问你。
Which is what motivated this exploration into food and chemistry?
是什么促使我们对食品和化学进行探索？
You're taking a very different approach to all of this.
你对这一切采取了一种非常不同的方法。
I should point out that your original training at Caltech was in astronomy, then you shifted to another field, and then you ended up in this field of food science/chemistry.
我应该指出，你最初在加州理工学院接受的培训是天文学，然后你转到了另一个领域，然后你最终进入了食品科学/化学领域。
You know a lot about poetry.
你对诗歌了解很多。
So I don't think I've ever met anyone with that background.
所以我认为我从未见过有这种背景的人。
You are clearly an "N-of-1," as we say.
正如我们所说，您显然是“N-of-1”。
What got you into this whole thing?
是什么让你卷入这整件事？
More importantly, perhaps, what motivates you?
也许更重要的是，是什么激励着你？
What's the texture of interest?
感兴趣的纹理是什么？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Is it to taste as many things as possible?
是要尝尽可能多的东西吗？
Or is it to link levels of analysis?
或者是链接分析的层次？
What is it?
它是什么？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
That last question is a really good one.
最后一个问题非常好。
I'll think about that as I answer the first parts.
在回答第一部分时我会考虑这一点。
I started out in love with science and with astronomy, in particular.
我一开始就爱上了科学，尤其是天文学。
And, you know, I built a telescope.
而且，你知道，我建造了一架望远镜。
I still look up at Orion every time it's in the sky and the skies are clear.
每当猎户座出现在天空中时，我仍然抬头仰望它，天空晴朗。
I went to Caltech to do astronomy.
我去加州理工学院做天文学。
Decided after a couple of years there that the physics was just not enough of a motivator for me to keep going.
在那里呆了几年后，我决定物理学不足以成为我继续前进的动力。
The physics at that point had gotten pretty hairy for me.
那时的物理学对我来说已经变得相当棘手。
So I decided I still love to look at the stars, but maybe I'm not going to do astronomy.
所以我决定我仍然喜欢看星星，但也许我不会做天文学。
I then looked around for other things and the people...
然后我环顾四周寻找其他的东西和人......
I had always loved the humanities, poetry, and novels, in particular.
我一直很喜欢人文学科，尤其是诗歌和小说。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
I was going to transfer to Stanford, and my literature professors at Caltech, there were a few, who convinced me to stay.
我本来打算转学到斯坦福大学，加州理工学院的文学教授中有几位说服了我留下来。
They said, "What you can do is you can stay with us.
他们说：“你能做的就是留在我们身边。
Cherry-pick the science because you don't have to take as much anymore.
精挑细选科学，因为你不必再接受那么多了。
And we'll get you a desk at the Huntington Library, the research library, and we'll give you tutorials, and we'll take care of you." And that's exactly what happened.
我们会在亨廷顿图书馆（研究图书馆）给你找一张桌子，我们会给你辅导，我们会照顾你。”事实正是如此。
It was a fantastic education that still included plenty of science, but it was on my terms and not the discipline's terms.
这是一次非常棒的教育，仍然包含大量的科学知识，但它是按照我的条件而不是学科的条件进行的。
Then I went off to graduate school in literature, having been inspired by my teachers at Caltech.
然后，受到加州理工学院老师的启发，我去读文学研究生。
I did a degree there, on the poetry of John Keats.
我在那里获得了约翰济慈诗歌的学位。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Then I couldn't get a job teaching.
然后我找不到教书的工作。
So, my mentors back at Caltech and also in graduate school said, "Well, you know, you have the science in your background.
所以，我在加州理工学院和研究生院的导师说：“嗯，你知道，你的背景是科学的。
You should do something with that." Long story short, conversations with friends over the dinner table and drinking wine and so on, and a question came up, "Why is it that beans give you gas?" And we all laughed.
你应该对此做点什么。”长话短说，和朋友在餐桌上聊天、喝酒等等，就出现了一个问题：“豆子为什么会胀气？”我们都笑了。
I laughed, and then I went to the library, and I found out why.
我笑了，然后我去了图书馆，我找到了原因。
I came back and told my friends, and we had a good laugh.
我回来告诉我的朋友们，我们都开怀大笑。
Then I thought, "Hmm, maybe...
然后我想：“嗯，也许...
I mean, people are interested in food, and this is kind of a fun fact about food that most people don't know.
我的意思是，人们对食物感兴趣，这是大多数人不知道的关于食物的有趣事实。
Maybe I can do this kind of thing."
也许我可以做这种事。”
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
So, I began to look a little more into it.
所以，我开始更深入地研究它。
In the meantime, a scout for one of the publishing houses in New York had a girlfriend who was in the same group, and she reported to him, and he reported to the publisher.
与此同时，纽约一家出版社的星探有一个同组的女朋友，她向他汇报，他又向出版商汇报。
The publisher called up out of the blue and said, "We hear you're writing a book about the science of food." And so, from that moment on, I was writing a book about the science of food.
出版商突然打电话说：“我们听说你正在写一本关于食品科学的书。”因此，从那一刻起，我开始写一本关于食品科学的书。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
You said, "Yes, I am."
你说：“是的，我是。”
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yes.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Why do we get gas from beans?
为什么我们从豆子中获取气体？
And is it true that soaking them in water prior to cooking them can remove some of that untoward effect?
在烹饪之前将它们浸泡在水中真的可以消除一些不良影响吗？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
It turns out that the answer was discovered by scientists working for NASA.
事实证明，答案是由美国宇航局的科学家发现的。
If you think about NASA and their missions back in the '70s, you can understand why they would want to control something like this.
如果您回想一下 70 年代的 NASA 及其任务，您就会明白为什么他们想要控制这样的东西。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
It turns out that beans contain, in addition to starch and sugars, a kind of intermediate-sized carbohydrate that our bodies do not have the enzymes to break down into sugars.
事实证明，除了淀粉和糖之外，豆类还含有一种中等大小的碳水化合物，我们的身体没有酶将其分解为糖。
So we can take care of starch, but not these intermediate-sized molecules.
所以我们可以处理淀粉，但不能处理这些中等大小的分子。
They pass into our gut unchanged, and then we have plenty of microbes that are happy to see those and digest them.
它们原封不动地进入我们的肠道，然后我们有大量的微生物很高兴看到它们并消化它们。
In the process, they produce CO2 and hydrogen gas, and that's what we end up experiencing.
在这个过程中，它们会产生二氧化碳和氢气，这就是我们最终经历的。
So the way to deal with that is to...
所以解决这个问题的方法就是...
Soaking the beans will work.
把豆子泡一下就可以了。
That leaches out some of these molecules, which are small and soluble in water.
这会滤出其中一些分子，这些分子很小且溶于水。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Even more effective is to actually bring that water, after it's been soaking, to a boil, and then pour that water off.
更有效的方法是在浸泡后将水煮沸，然后将水倒掉。
That will get rid of more.
这样会摆脱更多。
But the other point I would make about these so-called oligosaccharides is that these days we value the life in our lower tract.
但关于这些所谓的低聚糖，我要说的另一点是，如今我们重视下消化道的生命。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
These are the creatures that those molecules are feeding.
这些是这些分子正在喂养的生物。
It has been shown that your system can kind of adapt.
事实证明，您的系统可以适应。
The first few times you have beans or light lentils or whatever it might be, you may have some discomfort.
最初几次吃豆子或扁豆或其他任何东西时，您可能会感到一些不适。
But the more frequently you eat it, the better you're able to tolerate it, or your system is able to tolerate it without generating discomfort.
但你吃得越频繁，你就越能忍受它，或者你的系统能够忍受它而不会产生不适。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Yeah, that seems to be a repeating theme, which is that the more we eat certain foods, the more our gut microbiome adapts to those foods.
是的，这似乎是一个重复的主题，那就是我们吃某些食物越多，我们的肠道微生物组就越适应这些食物。
I think that we are just at the beginning of understanding the gut microbiome, but it's such a key player.
我认为我们对肠道微生物组的了解才刚刚开始，但它是一个非常关键的角色。
Do you make it a point to eat fermented foods, given what you know about the microbiome?
鉴于您对微生物组的了解，您是否重视吃发酵食品？
What are your favorite fermented foods?
你最喜欢的发酵食品是什么？
Or drinks?
还是饮料？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
I have learned to like kimchi.
我已经学会喜欢泡菜了。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
That was not initially a food that I sought out, but I've really come to like it.
这并不是我最初想要的食物，但我真的开始喜欢它了。
That may really be the only unusual fermented food that I seek out.
这可能真的是我寻找的唯一不寻常的发酵食品。
I love fruits and vegetables and legumes, and eat lots of those, and kind of figure that things will take care of themselves down there for the most part.
我喜欢水果、蔬菜和豆类，并且吃很多这些，并且认为大部分情况下事情都会自行解决。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
But kimchi is something I've come to love.
但泡菜是我喜欢的东西。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah, I haven't quite gotten to the kimchi thing.
是的，我还没有完全了解泡菜的事情。
I think it's because a few years ago, I brought it into my lab when I was in San Diego, and my entire lab complained, except for one person, my Korean student, who absolutely loved it.
我想这是因为几年前，当我在圣地亚哥时，我把它带进了我的实验室，我的整个实验室都抱怨了，除了一个人，我的韩国学生，他非常喜欢它。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
I think some of these things are acquired early in life, right?
我认为其中一些东西是在生命早期获得的，对吗？
And that's a question I was going to ask earlier.
这是我早些时候想问的问题。
Do you think that when young kids, in particular, don't want broccoli or they don't want certain foods, it's reflecting an actual, real aversion that's based on something important about their chemistry?
你是否认为，当年幼的孩子不想要西兰花或不想要某些食物时，这是否反映出一种真实的、真实的厌恶感，这种厌恶感基于他们的化学反应中的一些重要因素？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Again, I don't think the literature is clear, but my sense, based on having had a couple of kids go through this and just thinking it through, I think what's going on is that kids have a heightened sense of taste and smell.
再说一次，我不认为文献是清楚的，但我的感觉是，基于让几个孩子经历过这个并仔细思考，我认为发生的事情是孩子们的味觉和嗅觉增强了。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Very early in development, they're omnivorous.
在发育的早期，它们是杂食性的。
They'll put anything in their mouths.
他们会把任何东西放进嘴里。
Then, at a certain point, they become much more conservative.
然后，在某个时刻，他们变得更加保守。
I think also much more sensitive to nuances, the sulphurousness of broccoli, and that kind of thing.
我认为对细微差别、西兰花的硫磺味等也更加敏感。
But I think it's also both temporary and you can work with it.
但我认为这也是暂时的，你可以使用它。
In the case of our kids, we just made our regular dinners every day.
就我们的孩子而言，我们每天只做常规的晚餐。
And we would say to our kids, "You're welcome to eat as much or as little of what we have as you want, but this is what we have." There was one food that neither of my son nor daughter could tolerate, and we ended up just deciding, "Okay, that's literally off the table.
我们会对我们的孩子说：“我们有什么，你想吃多少就吃多少，但这就是我们所拥有的。”有一种食物我的儿子和女儿都无法忍受，最后我们决定：“好吧，那确实是不可能的。
You don't have to worry about this one." It was amaranth leaves, which I was growing in the garden because I'm trying to learn about everything, and they're interesting.
这件事你不用担心。”那是苋菜叶子，我在花园里种了它，因为我想了解一切，它们很有趣。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Whoa.
哇哦。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
But they have a very particular texture, and it was the texture that made them gag.
但它们有一种非常特殊的质感，正是这种质感让它们作呕。
And I didn't want to put them through that, so...
我不想让他们经历这些，所以...
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Fair.
公平。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
It wasn't just saying, "I don't like this." They were trying.
这不仅仅是说“我不喜欢这个”。他们正在努力。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
If nothing else, one can still thrive in life without having eaten amaranth leaves.
不出意外的话，不吃苋菜叶也照样能活得精彩。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yes.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Is it true that some people like cilantro and some people loathe it because they taste different things in the cilantro?
是不是有些人喜欢香菜，有些人讨厌香菜，因为他们尝到香菜中的味道不同？
The experience of cilantro is fundamentally different for some people than for others.
对于某些人来说，香菜的体验与其他人有着本质上的不同。
I like it.
我喜欢它。
My father, he hates it.
我的父亲，他讨厌这样。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, cilantro is a really interesting case, and the subject of a series of studies at the Monell Chemical Senses Center.
是的，香菜是一个非常有趣的案例，也是莫内尔化学感官中心一系列研究的主题。
They, in addition to all kinds of other things, would go to local county fairs and ask people, first of all, for twins.
除了各种各样的事情之外，他们还会去当地的县集市，首先向人们询问双胞胎。
If they saw twins on the grounds, they would bring them over to the booth and ask them both to taste cilantro and say what they thought.
如果他们在场地上看到双胞胎，他们会把他们带到摊位，让他们俩尝尝香菜并说出他们的想法。
The bottom line is, cilantro has molecules that I was going to say, cross-react.
最重要的是，香菜含有我要说的交叉反应分子。
That's not exactly it.
不完全是这样。
They're also found in soaps.
它们也存在于肥皂中。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
And so for a lot of people, depending on whether they've been acculturated to cilantro early in their lives or not, if they're only encountering it as an adult, the first thing they're going to think is, "That tastes like soap.
因此，对于很多人来说，取决于他们是否在生命早期就已经习惯了香菜，如果他们只是在成年后才接触到香菜，他们首先想到的是，“这尝起来像肥皂。
I don't want to put that in my mouth." Unless you're in a company where it's important to go along with the gang, there's a good basis for this kind of divergent set of reactions.
我不想把它放进嘴里。”除非你所在的公司重视与团队合作，否则这种不同的反应是有充分理由的。
But it has more to do with the cultural appearance of those same flavor molecules than with the material itself.
但它更多地与这些相同风味分子的文化外观有关，而不是与材料本身有关。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
I see.
我明白了。
So, for those of you who don't like cilantro, you can cite this discussion.
所以，对于那些不喜欢香菜的人，你可以引用这个讨论。
I have a colleague at Harvard, Catherine Dulac, who studies the olfactory system.
我在哈佛大学有一位同事凯瑟琳·杜拉克（Catherine Dulac），她研究嗅觉系统。
You're probably familiar with Catherine's work.
您可能熟悉凯瑟琳的工作。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yes, yeah.
是的，是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
She's French, as the last name suggests.
正如姓氏所示，她是法国人。
She would tell this story about different students and post-docs in her lab who come from a variety of different countries, being split down the middle in terms of their experience of microwave popcorn, that some people in her lab love the smell of microwave popcorn, but then there's a separate population of people in her lab that experience the smell of microwave popcorn as exactly the same as pungent vomit.
她会讲述她实验室里来自不同国家的不同学生和博士后的故事，他们对微波爆米花的体验分成两半，她实验室里的一些人喜欢微波爆米花的味道，但她实验室里有一群人感受到的微波爆米花的味道和刺鼻的呕吐物的味道一模一样。
And she claims it's on the basis of a variant in one of these olfactory receptors, which also speaks to the relationship between smell and taste.
她声称这是基于这些嗅觉受体之一的变异，这也说明了嗅觉和味觉之间的关系。
Nobody wants to eat something that smells putrid, and generally, one would hope.
没有人愿意吃有腐臭味的东西，一般来说，人们都会希望如此。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
What are some other examples of foods where people tend to diverge on the basis of something known to be or almost certainly biological, as opposed to just, "I wasn't raised eating that," or "That seems weird."
还有哪些食物的例子，人们往往会根据已知或几乎肯定是生物的东西而产生分歧，而不是仅仅“我不是吃那个的”或“这看起来很奇怪”。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
One thing that comes to mind that isn't quite that is Parmesan cheese, which has, as one of its primary flavor components, butyric acid, which is also the main thing that makes vomit smell like vomit.
我想到的一件事并不完全是帕尔马干酪，它的主要风味成分之一是丁酸，这也是使呕吐物闻起来像呕吐物的主要物质。
Some people just can't eat Parmesan cheese for that reason.
由于这个原因，有些人不能吃帕尔马干酪。
Others don't notice it.
其他人没有注意到它。
Others kind of notice it, but it's okay.
其他人有点注意到这一点，但没关系。
It's part of being Parmesan cheese.
它是帕尔马干酪的一部分。
So a lot depends on not only the sort of individual apparatus experiencing a food, but then, also what's normal for that food to contain.
因此，很大程度上不仅取决于接受食物的个体器官的类型，还取决于该食物所含的正常成分。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Because cow's milk is especially rich in butyric acid as one of the components of the fats, that's what you get when the breakdown takes place.
因为牛奶中含有特别丰富的丁酸，丁酸是脂肪的成分之一，所以当发生分解时就会得到丁酸。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
I like the example of Parmesan cheese.
我喜欢帕尔马干酪的例子。
More for me.
对我来说更多。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yes.
是的。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
More for me.
对我来说更多。
My last question is not in the domain of food or chemistry, but it's about poetry.
我的最后一个问题不是关于食品或化学领域的，而是关于诗歌的。
This is a science health podcast, but you're here, and you have the expertise, so I'm going to ask you.
这是一个科学健康播客，但你在这里，并且你拥有专业知识，所以我要问你。
I love poetry.
我喜欢诗歌。
What is something that you learned about Keats that most people don't know that is at least to you, particularly interesting?
关于济慈，你了解到哪些大多数人不知道但至少对你来说特别有趣的事情？
Then I'll ask you to suggest a Keats starter pack.
然后我会请你推荐济慈入门包。
Maybe name one Keats poem that everyone should go read.
也许可以举出一首每个人都应该去读的济慈诗。
We'll put a link to it.
我们将放置一个链接。
But first question is, you spent a considerable amount of time researching Keats and learning about him and his work.
但第一个问题是，您花了相当多的时间研究济慈并了解他和他的作品。
What's something that we're not going to learn elsewhere?
有什么是我们在其他地方学不到的？
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
I think one of the most important things about his development, and the reason that he wrote the kind of poetry he did, which was often concerned with death, eventually, ultimately, is that he started out life as a medical student.
我认为关于他的发展最重要的事情之一，以及他写出的这类诗歌的原因，最终，最终，是他以医学生的身份开始了生活。
He was a medical student at Guy's Hospital in London, which still exists and has a long, amazing history.
他是伦敦盖伊医院的一名医科学生，该医院至今仍然存在，并且拥有悠久而令人惊叹的历史。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
He was a medical student.
他是一名医学生。
He had a mother and a brother who both died of TB, and he attended to them in their illnesses.
他的母亲和兄弟都死于结核病，他在他们生病时照顾他们。
To know that, and then to read a poem like "To Autumn," which is the poem that I would suggest people read, just adds a dimension of appreciation to that poem.
知道这一点，然后去读一首像《致秋天》这样的诗，这就是我建议人们读的诗，只会为这首诗增加一个欣赏的维度。
Because there's nothing about death in the poem.
因为诗中没有提到死亡。
It's just a description of a natural scene in the autumn.
这只是对秋天自然景象的描述。
But those experiences are there.
但那些经历就在那里。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Knowing that and reading not only that poem, but many others, I'm sure it was...
知道这一点并不仅阅读了那首诗，还阅读了许多其他诗，我确信它是......
Well, I think he wrote poetry both to comfort people and to kind of work through what that life is all about, and that he needs to come to terms with, in order to have lived that life.
嗯，我认为他写诗既是为了安慰人们，也是为了通过生活的意义来工作，为了过上那种生活，他需要接受这些生活。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Thank you for that.
谢谢你。
We will go read "To Autumn," and we'll look for those experiences inside of it.
我们会去读《致秋天》，我们会在里面寻找那些经历。
A couple of things I want to say.
我想说几件事。
First of all, thank you so much for coming here and sharing your knowledge with us.
首先，非常感谢您来到这里并与我们分享您的知识。
I'm certain that it's going to change the way that people experience food and drink.
我确信它将改变人们体验食物和饮料的方式。
If nothing else, it will get them chewing their food and pausing between bites here and there to get deeper into the experience of food.
如果不出意外的话，这会让他们咀嚼食物，并在每一口食物之间停下来，以更深入地体验食物。
In fact, it's very refreshing to be able to talk about food on this podcast, not within the context of just fueling the body and health benefits.
事实上，能够在这个播客上谈论食物是非常令人耳目一新的，而不仅仅是在为身体补充能量和健康益处的背景下。
Those are critically important, but obviously food has cultural aspects and it has taste aspects, and is one of the great sources of pleasure in life.
这些至关重要，但显然食物具有文化方面和口味方面，并且是生活乐趣的重要来源之一。
You've taught us how to get more pleasure from food.
您教我们如何从食物中获得更多乐趣。
And also, it's links to history and human evolution.
而且，它与历史和人类进化有关。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
There's so much there.
那里有很多东西。
We'll put links to your books that explore the chemistry of food and other aspects.
我们将添加您探索食品化学和其他方面的书籍的链接。
Also, I just want to thank you because, whether you intended to or not, you're a wonderful example of how somebody follows their interests and blends them, and how talking about your interests with people can help you get opportunities to get paid to do what you do.
另外，我只是想感谢你，因为无论你是否有意，你都是一个很好的例子，说明人们如何追随自己的兴趣并将它们融合在一起，以及如何与人们谈论你的兴趣可以帮助你获得通过做你所做的事情获得报酬的机会。
People often wonder, "How do I take my varied interests and put them into something?" They'll try and thread the needle from this to that.
人们常常想知道，“我如何将自己的各种兴趣投入到某件事中？”他们会尝试从这到那。
I'm not going to make up a story here, but what I gathered was that just by being you and being open-minded and answering questions when people ask that you've been able to braid together your interests in a way that's allowed you to have a very unique career that's very impactful.
我不会在这里编造一个故事，但我收集到的是，只要做你自己，保持开放的心态，并在人们提出问题时回答问题，你就能够以一种方式将你的兴趣编织在一起，让你拥有一个非常独特、非常有影响力的职业。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Your books have been read by so many people, and this conversation will be heard by so many people.
你的书已经被很多人读过，这段对话也会被很多人听到。
So, thank you for that.
所以，谢谢你。
It's a reminder to just be oneself, and things generally work out.
这提醒我们要做自己，事情通常都会顺利进行。
That you're continuing to do the great work that you're doing.
您将继续做您正在做的伟大工作。
Once again, thanks for taking the time to come down here and talk to us.
再次感谢您抽出宝贵时间来到这里与我们交谈。
I'm going to try some new foods.
我要尝试一些新食物。
I think I'm going to do this tea thing.
我想我要做茶这件事。
I need some greenery in my place, and I think I'm going to do that.
我的地方需要一些绿色植物，我想我会这么做。
I have questions for you about that.
我对此有疑问。
And yeah, thanks so much.
是的，非常感谢。
I really appreciate the work you're doing.
我真的很欣赏你所做的工作。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Well, thank you very much, Andrew.
嗯，非常感谢你，安德鲁。
If I can just say a word about how rare it is to talk with people who are broadly interested in sort of the details of life, but also the meaning of life, and what's possible and what's not.
我只能说一句，与那些对生活细节、生活意义、什么是可能的、什么不感兴趣的人广泛感兴趣的人交谈是多么罕见。
That makes me especially happy to be here.
这让我特别高兴来到这里。
I was just going to say that I looked at this, the book about food, as being a one-off, and then I would write about gardening or something else.
我只是想说，我把这本关于食物的书视为一次性的，然后我会写一些关于园艺或其他的东西。
I just got captured by the subject.
我刚刚被这个主题俘获了。
It's hard to think of something that's more central to just sustaining human life, but also getting pleasure from it.
很难想象有什么比维持人类生命更重要，而且还能从中获得乐趣。
And so, I went down the rabbit hole, and I'm still down there.
就这样，我掉进了兔子洞，而我仍然在那儿。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Oh, we're grateful you are.
哦，我们很感激你。
Thank you, and thanks for putting the knowledge you collect in that rabbit hole out into the world.
谢谢您，也感谢您将您在兔子洞中收集的知识传播到世界各地。
Dr. Harold McGee
哈罗德·麦吉博士
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Harold McGee.
感谢您参加今天与 Harold McGee 博士的讨论。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
To learn more about his work and to find links to his books, please see the show note captions.
要了解有关他的作品的更多信息并查找他的书籍的链接，请参阅节目注释标题。
If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的关注按钮来关注播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review, and you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您可以给我们留下五星级的评论，现在您可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcasts or guests, or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comment section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客或嘉宾有意见，或者您希望我考虑胡伯曼实验室播客的主题，请将这些内容放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
For those of you who haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这本书是我花了五年多时间编写的，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验。
It covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise, stress control, and protocols related to focus and motivation.
它涵盖了从睡眠到锻炼、压力控制以及与注意力和动机相关的各个方面的协议。
And, of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
当然，我还为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。
The book is now available for pre-sale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There, you can find links to various vendors.
在那里，您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body."
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
And if you're not already following me on social media, I am "hubermanlab" on all social media platforms.
如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我在所有社交媒体平台上都是“hubermanlab”。
So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlap with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。
Again, it's "hubermanlab" on all social media platforms.
同样，所有社交媒体平台上都是“hubermanlab”。
And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network newsletter, the Neural Network newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, and deliberate cold exposure.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺和故意冷暴露等所有内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.
我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。
All of that is available completely zero cost.
所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to newsletter, and enter your email.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的菜单选项卡，向下滚动到时事通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件即可。
And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Dr. Andrew Huberman
安德鲁·胡伯曼博士
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Harold McGee.
再次感谢您参加今天与 Harold McGee 博士的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。