The Best Vitality & Health Protocols | Dr. Rhonda Patrick
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
There's lots of data now showing that people that are doing these short bursts, at least a minute long, but up to three minutes, they're moving faster with intent, and it's having outsize effects on health outcomes.
现在有大量数据表明，进行这些短时间爆发（至少一分钟，但最多三分钟）的人，他们会有意地更快地移动，这对健康结果产生了巨大的影响。
So for example, individuals that do on the high end, so they're doing three minutes of this short burst of an unstructured type of exercise snack, and they do it three times a day, so it's a total of nine minutes a day, okay?
举个例子，那些做高端运动的人，他们会做三分钟的这种短时间的非结构化运动零食，他们每天做三次，所以每天总共九分钟，好吗？
That's associated with a 40% reduction in all-cause mortality, 40% reduction in cancer-related mortality, a 50% reduction in cardiovascular-related mortality.
这与全因死亡率降低 40%、癌症相关死亡率降低 40%、心血管相关死亡率降低 50% 相关。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Nine minutes a day.
每天九分钟。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到胡伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Dr. Rhonda Patrick, a biomedical scientist and leading public health educator.
今天我的嘉宾是朗达·帕特里克博士，她是一位生物医学科学家和领先的公共卫生教育家。
For over a decade, Rhonda has been one of the most trusted voices in building science-based health protocols.
十多年来，朗达一直是构建基于科学的健康协议方面最值得信赖的声音之一。
Today, we discuss what the latest and best research says we should all be doing to improve our health and vitality and avoid disease.
今天，我们讨论最新、最好的研究表明我们应该做什么来改善我们的健康和活力并避免疾病。
Rhonda shares with us her exact exercise, nutrition, supplementation, and sauna protocols, and we get really detailed about the mechanisms and logic behind each one.
朗达与我们分享了她的具体锻炼、营养、补充和桑拿方案，我们非常详细地了解了每项方案背后的机制和逻辑。
We also discuss the things that science say you can do to significantly reduce your cancer and cardiovascular risk, including how to reduce visceral fat and arterial plaque.
我们还讨论了科学表明您可以采取的措施来显着降低癌症和心血管风险，包括如何减少内脏脂肪和动脉斑块。
Today's discussion truly leaves no stone unturned.
今天的讨论确实是不遗余力。
We discuss how eating can increase inflammation, believe it or not, ways to support your gut health, creatine, vitamin D, why broad vitamin and mineral and fiber support is crucial, as well as the different forms of magnesium and each of their unique effects.
无论您相信与否，我们都会讨论饮食如何增加炎症、支持肠道健康的方法、肌酸、维生素 D、为什么广泛的维生素、矿物质和纤维支持至关重要，以及不同形式的镁及其各自的独特功效。
We also discuss omega-3s and why prescription sources of omega-3s may be the cleanest and most cost-efficient way to obtain sufficient omega-3 intake.
我们还讨论了 omega-3 以及为什么 omega-3 的处方来源可能是获取足够 omega-3 摄入量的最清洁且最具成本效益的方式。
We also discuss the importance of prioritizing regular resistance training and HIIT workouts over protein.
我们还讨论了定期阻力训练和 HIIT 锻炼优先于蛋白质的重要性。
You still need protein, but emphasizing the exercise component is crucial.
您仍然需要蛋白质，但强调运动成分至关重要。
And we discuss fiber, micronutrients, and why short-term fasting can be beneficial.
我们还讨论了纤维、微量营养素以及为什么短期禁食有益。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick is a true wealth of knowledge, and today she generously provides us a master class on how you can design and adjust the exact health protocols to meet your specific needs.
朗达·帕特里克博士知识渊博，今天她慷慨地为我们提供了大师班，教您如何设计和调整确切的健康方案以满足您的特定需求。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.
为了与这个主题保持一致，今天的节目确实有赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Rhonda Patrick.
现在我与朗达帕特里克博士进行讨论。
Welcome back, Dr. Rhonda Patrick.
欢迎回来，朗达·帕特里克博士。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Excited to be here.
很高兴来到这里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's been a while.
已经有一段时间了。
I'm so excited.
我太激动了。
There's so much to go into.
有太多值得深入探讨的内容。
And I'll start off the same way I started last time because it's even more true.
我将按照上次开始的方式开始，因为这更真实。
Thank you for being first person into this public science health education business.
感谢您成为这个公共科学健康教育行业的第一人。
I don't know if everyone's aware of it, but you were the first person in, which is why I didn't say first man in, because the first person in was and is a woman, and you've done a marvelous job of educating people on science, how to parse papers and data, health practices, and the rest of us are just trying to follow in your wake.
我不知道是否每个人都意识到这一点，但你是第一个进来的人，这就是为什么我没有说第一个男人进来，因为第一个进来的人过去是、现在也是女性，你在科学教育、如何解析论文和数据、健康实践方面做得非常出色，我们其他人只是想追随你的脚步。
So thank you very much.
非常感谢。
I just want to thank you for being first.
我只是想感谢你是第一个。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Oh, man.
哦，伙计。
Thank you so much for that.
非常感谢你。
And also thank you for doing what you do.
也感谢你所做的事情。
You really do a great service for science communication, education, helping people love science and get healthier.
你们确实为科学传播、教育、帮助人们热爱科学和变得更健康做出了巨大的贡献。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Well, you're the pioneer.
嗯，你是先锋。
It's not always easy being a pioneer, but we all benefit.
成为先锋并不总是那么容易，但我们都会受益。
So let's jump in at exercise because lately you've actually been posting your workouts, which is awesome, and you're clearly very fit.
那么让我们开始锻炼吧，因为最近你实际上已经发布了你的锻炼结果，这太棒了，而且你显然非常健康。
I learned before talking to you today that you're a competitive athlete.
今天和你说话之前我就知道你是一名竞技运动员。
You were a long jumper or triple jumper?
你是跳远运动员还是三级跳远运动员？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I was a long jumper.
我是一名跳远运动员。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But I would say my real competitive athleteness comes from my jump roping.
但我想说，我真正的竞技运动能力来自于我的跳绳。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
All right.
好的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I was on a professional jump roping team.
我是专业跳绳队的成员。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Professional?
专业吗？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
We would compete.
我们会竞争。
So my friend and I started the team when we were in second grade, and it was called the San Diego Sand Skippers.
所以我和我的朋友在二年级的时候组建了一支球队，它的名字叫圣地亚哥沙船长队。
It was part of the International Rope Skipping Organization, which was actually started by her uncle.
它是国际跳绳组织的一部分，该组织实际上是由她叔叔创办的。
But there's jump rope teams all around the world, and now I think there's a new name, but it got taken over by the Universal Jump Rope Team or something like that.
但是世界各地都有跳绳队，现在我认为有一个新名称，但它被环球跳绳队或类似的东西所取代。
I don't know exactly what it is.
我不知道它到底是什么。
So I was on a team, and every year we would compete in Boulder, Colorado.
所以我加入了一个团队，每年我们都会在科罗拉多州博尔德进行比赛。
There was competitions for all kinds of jumping rope, and I would perform and start jump rope teams around different schools in San Diego.
有各种各样的跳绳比赛，我会在圣地亚哥的不同学校表演并组建跳绳队。
So I used to get out of school free card, and my partner and I would go and do workshops at other schools and help them start jump rope teams.
所以我曾经获得校外免费卡，我和我的搭档会去其他学校举办研讨会，帮助他们组建跳绳队。
And the idea was cardiovascular health, healthy heart, and yeah.
这个想法是心血管健康，健康的心脏，是的。
So that's really, I would say, my roots with being a competitive athlete.
所以我想说，这确实是我作为一名竞技运动员的根源。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Awesome.
太棒了。
I love skipping rope.
我喜欢跳绳。
Is it okay to say skipping rope or is jumping rope the-
可以说跳绳吗，还是跳绳——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Skipping rope, jumping rope.
跳绳，跳绳。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And actually, it's a great opportunity for me to ask you what your thoughts are about exercise that isn't just linear, right?
事实上，这是一个很好的机会，我可以问你对于线性锻炼的看法，对吗？
I know real jump ropers can do crossovers, and these days I'm seeing a lot more about rope flow.
我知道真正的跳绳运动员可以进行交叉，这些天我看到了更多关于绳索流的知识。
I think it's David Weck and others online, or stuff that's getting people out of the standard curls, bench presses, lunges, and getting movements that are more, just for lack of a better term, across the body.
我认为是大卫·韦克（David Weck）和其他人在网上提出的，或者说是让人们摆脱标准弯举、卧推、弓步，并进行更多全身动作（只是因为缺乏更好的术语）。
Do you think there's something to that in terms of real physical benefits?
您认为这对身体有实际好处吗？
I imagine there is.
我想是有的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Sure.
当然。
I wouldn't be the expert to be able to give you a good answer on that, but I do think that jumping rope in general has unique benefits.
我不是能够给你一个很好答案的专家，但我确实认为跳绳总体上有独特的好处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
In addition to, obviously, it's a great cardiovascular exercise.
除此之外，显然，这是一项很好的心血管运动。
You're getting the weight-bearing aspects as well-
你也得到了承重方面-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
for building bone density.
用于增强骨密度。
And I think that earlier for me, I was doing it as a young girl, so important, right?
我认为早些时候对我来说，我是作为一个年轻女孩做的，所以很重要，对吧？
Because you're kind of banking that bone density early on-
因为你很早就开始考虑骨密度了-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
which is important because at some point, menopause will hit, and estrogen goes down, and so you start to lose more bone.
这很重要，因为在某个时候，更年期会到来，雌激素下降，所以你开始失去更多的骨质。
But yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of benefits to jumping rope beyond what I'm describing as cardiovascular benefits and bone benefits that Someone else could answer.
但是，是的，我确信跳绳除了我所描述的心血管益处和骨骼益处之外还有很多好处，其他人可以回答。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I'm certainly going to get back to jumping rope now that we resurrected it in this conversation.
好吧，既然我们在这次谈话中复活了跳绳，我当然会回到跳绳上来。
And I have to say, bone density measurements aside, you have awesome posture.
我不得不说，除了骨密度测量之外，你的姿势也很棒。
I notice people's posture.
我注意到人们的姿势。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Oh, really?
哦，真的吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I didn't mean to put you on the spot here, but yeah, when I walked in, I was like, "If you ever interacted with Rhonda in person," which I have, "You have amazing posture." And these days, good posture is rare.
我并不是故意让你难堪的，但是，是的，当我走进去的时候，我就想，“如果你曾经与朗达亲自互动过，”我说的是，“你的姿势很惊人。”如今，良好的姿势已经很少见了。
So who knows, maybe the things are related.
所以谁知道呢，也许这些事情是相关的。
I imagine they probably are, bone health and posture and so forth.
我想它们可能是，骨骼健康和姿势等等。
In terms of the sorts of exercise that people are more familiar with, what's your routine look like, and what sorts of things in your routine are non-negotiables?
就人们更熟悉的锻炼类型而言，您的日常活动是什么样的？您的日常活动中哪些事情是不可协商的？
And where's the place for experimentation and kind of what you're exploring now?
您现在正在探索的实验地点在哪里？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So for me, exercise is part of my personal hygiene, as you and I were discussing.
所以对我来说，锻炼是我个人卫生的一部分，正如你和我所讨论的那样。
It really is a non-negotiable.
这确实是没有商量的余地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I absolutely have to do exercise just like I have to brush my teeth.
我绝对必须做运动，就像我必须刷牙一样。
And I kind of got that from Dr. Ben Levine, who's probably one of the world's leading cardiovascular exercise physiologists.
我从本·莱文博士那里得到了这一点，他可能是世界领先的心血管运动生理学家之一。
He's at UT Southwest in Dallas.
他在达拉斯的 UT 西南大学。
Just want to shout out his name because I've really learned a lot from him.
只是想喊出他的名字，因为我真的从他身上学到了很多东西。
But the non-negotiables for me really are getting cardiovascular exercise and getting my resistance training, so building muscle, maintaining muscle strength as well.
但对我来说，不容置疑的是进行心血管锻炼和阻力训练，从而增强肌肉，保持肌肉力量。
So my routine for me, I work out probably about five to six hours a week.
所以我的日常工作是每周锻炼大约五到六个小时。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And those workouts, I largely am doing a combination of high-intensity interval training.
在这些锻炼中，我主要是进行高强度间歇训练的组合。
That's not necessarily like the Norwegian 4x4, where I'm going as hard as I can for four minutes and then recovering for three minutes and doing that four times.
这不一定像挪威 4x4 那样，在挪威 4x4 比赛中，我会尽全力跑四分钟，然后恢复三分钟，重复四次。
The Norwegian 4x4 is a hard workout.
挪威四驱车是一项艰苦的训练。
It's really good for improving your cardiorespiratory fitness, which I think is one of the best markers for longevity, and we can talk about that.
这对于改善心肺健康确实很有好处，我认为这是长寿的最佳标志之一，我们可以讨论这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I do a lot of...
我做了很多...
It's a mixture of doing rowing machine, getting on the assault bike, and then mixing it in with lifting weights, doing some deadlifts, doing squats.
它是划船机、骑突击自行车的混合体，然后与举重、硬拉、深蹲混合在一起。
So it's really, for me, a non-negotiable to do my vigorous intensity exercise, is what I would call it.
所以，对我来说，进行剧烈的强度锻炼是没有商量余地的，我就是这么称呼它的。
So you're really kind of getting your heart rate up to 80% max heart rate at points.
因此，您确实可以在某些时候将心率提高到最大心率的 80%。
Not always, but especially during the intervals.
并非总是如此，但尤其是在间歇期。
I would say that's a non-negotiable for me.
我想说这对我来说是没有商量余地的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How many days a week are you doing that?
你每周有多少天这样做？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I do my longer HIIT workouts.
我进行较长时间的 HIIT 锻炼。
So I have four days a week where I'm doing at least an hour.
所以我每周有四天至少做一个小时。
So two of those sessions are more of a CrossFit type of training-
所以其中两个课程更像是 CrossFit 类型的训练 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
where I'll do the first 30 minutes will be strength training.
前 30 分钟我会进行力量训练。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So I'll just be lifting heavier with fewer reps.
所以我会用更少的次数举起更大的重量。
And-
还有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's the rest between sets?
组间休息什么？
Sorry to get granular, but people will wonder
抱歉说得太细了，但人们会想知道
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
what's funny is I typically rest about two minutes between my sets.
有趣的是，我通常在两组之间休息大约两分钟。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I recover pretty quick.
我恢复得很快。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And I do it with a coach, and my coach usually tells me that I'm spot on and I'm ready to go, and it's been about two minutes.
我和教练一起做，我的教练通常告诉我我已经做好了准备，而且已经过去了大约两分钟。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So usually that's my recovery time.
所以通常这就是我的恢复时间。
And so the first 30 minutes is strength training, and that'll be deadlifts.
所以前 30 分钟是力量训练，也就是硬拉。
It'll be squats.
会是深蹲。
I'll be cleaning.
我来打扫。
I'll be doing front squats.
我会做前蹲。
Sometimes I do barbell or back squats, right?
有时我会做杠铃或后蹲，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It's a mixture of different types of-
它是不同类型的混合物-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
strength training.
力量训练。
And then the last 30 minutes is more of a high-intensity interval training session.
最后 30 分钟更多的是高强度间歇训练。
So it'll be where I'm getting my heart rate up.
所以这将是我心率加快的地方。
So I'm mixing in the rowing machine, and then I have, maybe I'm doing cleans, but they're lighter, right?
所以我会在划船机上混合，然后我可能会做高翻，但它们更轻，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So it's more reps-
所以它是更多的代表 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
but lighter load, right?
但负载较轻，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So I do that twice a week, and that each is an hour session.
所以我每周做两次，每次一个小时。
And then I do also twice a week, about an hour and 20 minutes of...
然后我每周也会做两次，大约一个小时二十分钟......
It's also more high intensity, but I have more recovery time because I'm doing it with my girlfriends, and we kind of-
它的强度也更高，但我有更多的恢复时间，因为我是和我的女朋友一起做的，我们有点-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
chitchat a little bit.
闲聊一下。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But it's very similar.
但它非常相似。
We do rowing machine, assault bikes.
我们做划船机、突击自行车。
We do the skier.
我们做滑雪者。
You know, Rowed has that skier.
你知道，罗厄德有那个滑雪者。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And then we mix it in with chest presses, and we do assisted pull-ups, and we do lighter squats with larger, more reps.
然后我们将其与胸部推举混合起来，我们做辅助引体向上，我们做更轻的深蹲，次数更大、次数更多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So that's another two hours a week.
这样每周就多了两个小时。
So now I have four hours a week of just doing a lot of that sort of CrossFit, HIIT type of training.
所以现在我每周有四个小时进行大量 CrossFit、HIIT 类型的训练。
And then I mix that in with my more runs that I do, which I would say are still considered vigorous intensity.
然后我将其与我所做的更多跑步混合在一起，我想说这仍然被认为是剧烈的强度。
They're just not quite as high intensity.
它们只是没有那么高强度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And I do probably, I run maybe six miles a week, maybe at my max.
我可能会，我每周可能跑六英里，也许是我的最大极限。
But these days, I'm mostly running probably four miles a week.
但现在，我主要每周跑步四英里。
So those runs tend to be sometimes they're two miles, sometimes they're three miles.
因此，这些跑步有时是两英里，有时是三英里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And you know.
你知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you enjoy running?
你喜欢跑步吗？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I do.
我愿意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I do.
我愿意。
And I think it's important as well, and sometimes I'll run with my husband, and we just kind of chill out and talk.
我认为这也很重要，有时我会和我的丈夫一起跑步，我们只是放松一下并交谈。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And it's a nice time for me as well, just to kind of do that with him.
这对我来说也是一个美好的时光，只是和他一起做这件事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And then on weekends, I'll probably do a hike with my family, and sometimes we'll do a sprint up the hill.
然后在周末，我可能会和家人一起去远足，有时我们会冲刺上山。
But it's more just enjoyable time in nature.
但更多的是在大自然中享受愉快的时光。
Still moving, but it's kind of family time, too.
仍在搬家，但这也是家庭时光。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Weight vests on the run or hike?
跑步或徒步时穿负重背心？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No?
没有？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I'm kind of wanting to experiment with that-
我有点想尝试一下-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
but not really.
但事实并非如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I'm just kind of...
我只是有点...
Sometimes we bring our puppy and...
有时我们会带着我们的小狗...
So it's more about the experience, I think, than...
所以我认为，更多的是体验，而不是……
I get a lot of workout throughout the week.
我整个星期都进行了大量的锻炼。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But it's like you said, it's non-negotiable for me.
但正如你所说，这对我来说是没有商量余地的。
And times when I'm, like today.
有时候，就像今天一样。
So I had a long drive, and so I got on my Peloton, and I did a 10-minute Tabata back to back.
所以我开了很长的路，所以我上了主车，背靠背跑了 10 分钟的 Tabata。
So it was two back-to-back Tabatas, right?
所以这是两个背靠背的 Tabata，对吧？
So it ended up being 10 minutes.
所以最终是10分钟。
So it was 30-second recovery in between the two Tabata sessions.
因此，两次 Tabata 训练之间有 30 秒的恢复时间。
Two-to-one ratio, 20 seconds on, 10 seconds off.
二比一的比例，20 秒开启，10 秒关闭。
But I have to do something every day, and if I'm traveling or I have an early podcast or something, I'll just jump on the bike, and I have to get that blood flow.
但我每天都必须做一些事情，如果我在旅行或者我有一个早期的播客之类的，我就会跳上自行车，我必须让血液流动。
Sometimes I'm in my hotel room, and I don't want to go to the gym.
有时我在酒店房间里，不想去健身房。
I don't have time.
我没有时间。
And I just, in my room, I do the air squats.
我只是在我的房间里做深蹲。
I'll do high knees, jumping jacks, and I either repeat for 10 minutes.
我会做高抬腿、开合跳，然后重复 10 分钟。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I'm getting my heart rate up and I've got sweat on my brow.
我的心率越来越快，额头都冒汗了。
It's not the most intense workout, but it's so important for me.
这不是最激烈的锻炼，但对我来说非常重要。
There's a variety of brain benefits that have been shown with even just 10 minutes of this vigorous type of intensity of workout you do, where you're I mean, you probably have seen this data where it's like just 10 minutes of this vigorous type of exercise, you're immediately increasing neuronal connections.
事实证明，即使只进行 10 分钟的这种剧烈运动，也能对大脑产生多种好处，我的意思是，您可能已经看到了这些数据，只需进行 10 分钟的这种剧烈运动，就会立即增加神经元连接。
There's been studies showing that you have an improvement in executive function by like 14%, which is pretty big.
研究表明，您的执行功能提高了 14% 左右，这是相当大的。
I think it was like a 50-millisecond improvement processing speed or something, which doesn't sound a lot, but actually it translates to a big improvement in executive function.
我觉得就像是处理速度提高了50毫秒什么的，听起来不是很多，但实际上它转化为执行功能的一个很大的提高。
So my brain works better, I feel better, better mood.
所以我的大脑运转得更好，我感觉更好，心情更好。
There's even studies that have compared impulse control after various types of intensity of workouts.
甚至有研究比较了不同类型强度的锻炼后的冲动控制。
So like, there's one study that compared a more low intensity versus moderate intensity versus high intensity.
例如，有一项研究比较了较低强度、中等强度和高强度。
So you're talking about like walking versus maybe jogging slowly where you can still have a conversation versus like you're doing a HIIT workout, right?
所以你说的是步行与缓慢慢跑（在那里你们仍然可以交谈）与进行 HIIT 锻炼，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
When you're on, you're not really talking because you're going as hard as you can during that interval.
当你在场的时候，你并没有真正说话，因为你在这段时间里已经竭尽全力了。
And it was the high-intensity, vigorous intensity exercise that really increased plasma serotonin, which has been shown to associate with brain serotonin.
正是高强度、高强度运动真正增加了血浆血清素，而血浆血清素已被证明与大脑血清素有关。
The studies have been done.
研究已经完成。
And serotonin is very important for, as you know, for impulse control.
如您所知，血清素对于冲动控制非常重要。
I mean, a lot of people think about serotonin with respect to mood because-
我的意思是，很多人认为血清素与情绪有关，因为-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
we have these selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, SSRIs, that are used to treat depression, major depressive disorder.
我们有这些选择性血清素再摄取抑制剂，SSRIs，用于治疗抑郁症和重度抑郁症。
But serotonin, as you know, does so much more than that.
但正如您所知，血清素的作用远不止于此。
And impulse control is one of the big things that serotonin plays a role in.
冲动控制是血清素发挥作用的重要因素之一。
And so those studies show that plasma serotonin increased in the higher intensity group, and that correlated with improved impulse control.
因此，这些研究表明，高强度组的血浆血清素增加，这与冲动控制的改善相关。
So of course, for us now in the modern-day society that we live in, we're constantly being bombarded with social media and all these things, and you have to be able to kind of filter that out and not just go with the impulse, like check my social media, and how many likes did I get, or whatever.
当然，对于我们生活在现代社会的我们来说，我们不断地受到社交媒体和所有这些东西的轰炸，你必须能够过滤掉这些信息，而不仅仅是随波逐流，比如检查我的社交媒体，我得到了多少个赞，或者其他什么。
You need to just be able to focus.
你需要能够集中注意力。
And so that, for me, serotonin is important.
因此，对我来说，血清素很重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And so I like to get that vigorous intensity exercise as well.
所以我也喜欢进行剧烈的运动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Our Place.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商“我们的地方”。
Surprisingly, toxic compounds such as PFAS, or forever chemicals, are still found in 80% of non-stick pans, as well as utensils, appliances, and countless other kitchen products.
令人惊讶的是，80% 的不粘锅以及餐具、电器和无数其他厨房产品中仍然含有 PFAS 或永久化学物质等有毒化合物。
As I've discussed before on this podcast, these PFAS, or forever chemicals like Teflon, have been linked to major health issues such as hormone disruption, gut microbiome disruption, fertility issues, and many other health problems.
正如我之前在这个播客中讨论过的那样，这些 PFAS 或特氟龙等永久性化学物质与荷尔蒙破坏、肠道微生物群破坏、生育问题和许多其他健康问题等重大健康问题有关。
So it's very important to avoid them.
因此，避免它们非常重要。
This is why I'm a huge fan of Our Place.
这就是为什么我是《我们的地方》的超级粉丝。
Our Place products are made with the highest quality materials and are all PFAS and toxin-free.
我们的 Place 产品采用最优质的材料制成，不含 PFAS 和毒素。
I particularly love their Titanium Always Pan Pro.
我特别喜欢他们的 Titanium Always Pan Pro。
It's the first non-stick pan made with zero chemicals and zero coating.
这是第一个采用零化学品和零涂层制成的不粘锅。
Instead, it uses pure titanium.
相反，它使用纯钛。
That means it has no harmful forever chemicals, and it does not degrade or lose its non-stick effect over time.
这意味着它不含永久有害的化学物质，并且不会随着时间的推移而降解或失去不粘效果。
It's also beautiful to look at.
看起来也很漂亮。
I cook my eggs in my Titanium Always Pan Pro almost every morning.
我几乎每天早上都会用 Titanium Always Pan Pro 煮鸡蛋。
The design allows for the eggs to cook perfectly without sticking to the pan.
该设计使鸡蛋能够完美烹饪而不会粘在锅上。
Right now, Our Place is having their biggest sale of the season.
目前，Our Place 正在进行本季最大规模的促销活动。
You can save up to 40% sitewide now through April 12th.
即日起至 4 月 12 日，您可在全站范围内享受高达 40% 的折扣。
Just head to fromourplace.com/huberman.
只需前往 fromourplace.com/huberman。
Again, that's fromourplace.com/huberman to save up to 40%.
同样，来自ourplace.com/huberman 最多可节省 40%。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Lingo.
今天的节目也是Lingo给我们带来的。
One of the most important factors in your short and long-term health is your body's ability to manage glucose over time.
影响您短期和长期健康的最重要因素之一是您的身体随着时间的推移控制血糖的能力。
Glucose directly impacts our brain function, mood, and energy.
葡萄糖直接影响我们的大脑功能、情绪和能量。
You want your glucose relatively stable across the day without big peaks or valleys.
您希望血糖在一天中相对稳定，没有大的峰值或谷值。
This is why I use the continuous glucose monitor and app from Lingo by Abbott.
这就是我使用 Lingo by Abbott 的连续血糖监测仪和应用程序的原因。
Lingo provides minute-by-minute glucose data directly within the app, showing you how your glucose responds to food, exercise, and stress.
Lingo 直接在应用程序内提供每分钟的血糖数据，向您展示血糖对食物、运动和压力的反应。
This information can help you make smarter choices to support your health both now and in the long term.
这些信息可以帮助您做出更明智的选择，以支持您当前和长期的健康。
The CDC estimates that more than one in three American adults has prediabetes, and that many of these people don't know they are living with prediabetes.
疾病预防控制中心估计，超过三分之一的美国成年人患有糖尿病前期，其中许多人并不知道自己患有糖尿病前期。
Visibility about how your diet and activity affect your glucose can be the first step toward informed conversations with your doctor and making smarter daily choices.
了解您的饮食和活动如何影响您的血糖可能是与您的医生进行知情对话并做出更明智的日常选择的第一步。
If you'd like to try Lingo, Lingo is offering Huberman Lab listeners in the US and UK 10% off a four-week plan.
如果您想尝试 Lingo，Lingo 将为美国和英国的 Huberman Lab 听众提供为期 4 周的 10% 折扣。
Just visit hellolingo.com/huberman for more information.
请访问 hellolingo.com/huberman 了解更多信息。
Terms and conditions apply.
条款和条件适用。
Again, that's hellolingo.com/huberman.
再说一次，这是hellolingo.com/huberman。
I love that you mentioned other functions of serotonin because, as you point out, it is so heavily associated with this mood aspect and certainly has a role there.
我喜欢你提到血清素的其他功能，因为正如你所指出的，它与情绪方面密切相关，并且肯定在那里发挥作用。
But the impulse control piece is, I think, is a nontrivial aspect to the effects of exercise.
但我认为，冲动控制对于锻炼的效果来说是一个重要的方面。
And just generally, I'm curious, do you bring your phone or feel compelled to check your phone during workouts, or are you able to just say, "I'm compartmentalizing now.
一般来说，我很好奇，你是否带了手机，或者在锻炼期间有必要检查你的手机，或者你是否可以说，“我现在正在划分。
This is the workout." You might put on music or maybe text here or there if you need to, but are you able to compartmentalize or do you struggle with the phone during workouts?
这就是锻炼。”如果需要的话，你可能会放音乐或者发短信，但是你能够区分或者在锻炼期间你是否很难使用手机？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Oh, I don't bring my phone to my workout at all.
哦，我根本不带手机去锻炼。
Now I do have a watch that I wear that if there's an emergency, I'll get a text message.
现在我确实有一块手表，如果出现紧急情况，我会收到短信。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Oftentimes I put it on silent, on no notifications because I don't want to be bothered.
我经常把它设置为静音，没有通知，因为我不想被打扰。
But I don't really check my phone.
但我真的不看手机。
I don't really like checking things like social media.
我真的不喜欢查看社交媒体之类的东西。
For me, it's just a distraction, and frankly, I think it's terrible for people's brains, even though my business kind of depends on it somewhat.
对我来说，这只是一种干扰，坦率地说，我认为这对人们的大脑来说很糟糕，尽管我的生意在某种程度上依赖于它。
I think social media is not really good for people, to be honest.
老实说，我认为社交媒体对人们来说并不是真的有好处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So I don't really check my phone or bring my phone to my workouts.
所以我不会真正检查我的手机或带手机去锻炼。
I like to chat with my friends when I'm working out with them, and that's fun.
当我和朋友一起锻炼时，我喜欢和他们聊天，这很有趣。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's in real life.
那是现实生活中的事。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
IRL, as the-
IRL，作为-
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
That's in-
那是在——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as the kids say.
正如孩子们所说。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
That's in real life.
那是现实生活中的事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And yeah, phones for me are not something that I bring to my workout.
是的，对我来说，手机不是我锻炼时带的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Yeah, I've been experimenting with not allowing the phone in my gym, and just the workouts go so much better.
是的，我一直在尝试不允许在健身房使用手机，结果锻炼效果好多了。
And I find that the mental and physical resetting aspect of working out just seems to be enhanced.
我发现锻炼的精神和身体重置方面似乎得到了增强。
But it sounds like you were already there, and I'm just arriving.
但听起来你已经在那里了，而我才刚刚到达。
So I have a couple other specific questions about your workouts because for my own interest, and I know many people will wonder.
因此，出于我自己的兴趣，我还有一些关于您的锻炼的其他具体问题，我知道很多人会想知道。
For the dedicated weight workouts Are these whole body workouts and you said low reps.
对于专门的重量锻炼，这些是全身锻炼吗？您说的是低次数。
Maybe you could just tell us what low reps is for you, and then it seems like the ever-present question is to failure, close to failure?
也许你可以告诉我们低次数对你来说是什么，然后似乎一直存在的问题是失败，接近失败？
Just to round out that portion of the workout picture.
只是为了完善锻炼图片的那部分。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
The workouts that I'm doing with my strength training workouts with my coach, it really depends.
我和教练一起进行的力量训练训练，这真的取决于情况。
Most of those workouts are-- They're multi-joint workouts, so I am most of the time doing some either front squat, back squat, or I'm cleaning it as well, right?
大多数训练都是——它们是多关节训练，所以我大部分时间都在做一些前蹲、后蹲，或者我也在清理它，对吧？
Which obviously the weight goes down if I'm cleaning it, because it's hard to clean.
如果我清洁它，重量显然会下降，因为它很难清洁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It's the thing that I hate doing the most.
这是我最讨厌做的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Cleans.
清洁。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Cleans with front squat because it's really hard for me.
用前蹲来清理，因为这对我来说真的很难。
For others who've been doing it for years, I'm sure they love it.
对于其他已经这样做多年的人来说，我确信他们喜欢它。
But for me, it's very hard.
但对我来说，这非常困难。
I've only been doing cleans since February 2024, so I'm pretty new to it.
我从 2024 年 2 月起才开始做清洁工作，所以我对此还很陌生。
And so mentally, I have to overcome that challenge.
因此，在精神上，我必须克服这一挑战。
Which, by the way, once I started doing all this sort of weight training, I've always been an endurance junkie.
顺便说一句，一旦我开始进行所有这些重量训练，我就一直是一个耐力迷。
I used to go long runs and races and stuff like that.
我过去常常参加长跑和比赛之类的活动。
So for me, that's my safe spot, right?
所以对我来说，那是我的安全点，对吗？
That's what comes easy to me.
这对我来说很容易。
Weight training and resistance training, strength training, definitely not something that I've done my whole life.
重量训练和阻力训练、力量训练，绝对不是我一生都在做的事情。
I'm so glad that I started doing it, but very, very challenging for me.
我很高兴我开始这样做，但对我来说非常非常具有挑战性。
And so I would say the biggest effect was on my brain and the ability to handle stress better.
所以我想说最大的影响是对我的大脑和更好地处理压力的能力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Where it was unbelievable because it was so hard, and I just didn't want to do these cleans and these front squats, and then the rest of my day was not as hard.
这是令人难以置信的，因为它太难了，我只是不想做这些高翻和前深蹲，然后我一天剩下的时间就没那么难了。
And that to me was the biggest surprise for this type of training.
对我来说，这是此类培训的最大惊喜。
But anyway, so I do a variety of-- If I'm going heavier, then it depends.
但无论如何，所以我会做各种各样的事情——如果我要更重，那就要看情况了。
Sometimes I'll start off, it's like, okay, we start off, we do five reps, and then we go down to four, and then we go down to three, and then we go down to one.
有时我会开始，就像，好吧，我们开始，我们做五次，然后我们减少到四次，然后我们减少到三次，然后我们减少到一次。
Right.
正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, you're doing singles?
哦，你是单身吗？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
We do.
我们做到了。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Awesome.
太棒了。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And that's the hardest.
这是最难的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It's the hardest.
这是最难的。
But then my coach will be like, "It's just one." Sometimes we'll do six, five, and then we do four twice-
但然后我的教练就会说，“这只是一个。”有时我们会做六次、五次，然后我们做四次两次-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
and then we do three twice, right?
然后我们做三两次，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And so it all depends also on the day.
所以这一切也取决于当天。
There's some days where I'm just like, "Can we do lower reps and lighter weight?" Right?
有时候我会想，“我们可以做更少的次数和更轻的重量吗？”正确的？
Where I'm just like, "This is the day for me.
我就像是，“这就是我的一天。
I'm stressed.
我压力很大。
I'm not here."
我不在这里。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So you kind of have to modify your workout, right, according to how you feel that day.
所以你必须根据你当天的感觉来调整你的锻炼，对吧。
But I would say that the majority of my strength training workouts are deadlifting.
但我想说的是，我的大部分力量训练都是硬拉。
I love deadlifting.
我喜欢硬拉。
I think I'm pretty good at pulling that weight up, lifting that weight up.
我认为我很擅长拉起那个重量，举起那个重量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a straight bar, hex bar-
这是直杆、六角杆——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I do a straight bar
我做直杠
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
mixed grip.
混合握法。
There's so many variables, but yeah.
虽然有很多变数，但是是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Straight bar.
直杆。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Straight bar.
直杆。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And it's the same deal with that.
这也是同样的事情。
Most of the time with strength training, we start off at five or six and then work our way down.
大多数时候，进行力量训练时，我们会从五六点开始，然后逐渐下降。
And then I usually do a drop set after any of those sessions where I'll do 10, and then it's a lot lighter, right?
然后我通常会在每次训练结束后做递降组，我会做 10 次，然后重量就会轻很多，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So those are typically my strength training sessions are multi-joint.
所以我的力量训练通常是多关节的。
Sometimes I'll do accessory sessions-
有时我会做辅助课程-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
where I'm working.
我工作的地方。
I do the dips-
我做双臂屈伸-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
or the Bulgarian split squats.
或保加利亚分腿深蹲。
Just the accessory stuff-
只是配件——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
that you're working the smaller stabilization muscles and stuff like that.
你正在锻炼较小的稳定肌肉和类似的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love that you call Bulgarian split squats accessory smaller muscles.
我喜欢你把保加利亚分腿深蹲称为附属较小的肌肉。
For a lot of people, that's the compound work.
对于很多人来说，这就是复合工作。
Which is just, I have to say, inside I'm just so delighted because obviously, weight training is something that's caught on broadly for men and women now.
我不得不说，我内心非常高兴，因为显然，重量训练现在已经广泛受到男性和女性的欢迎。
But I don't know many women, and I know they're out there, but I don't know many women who are working down to singles on multi-joint, like real multi-joint, like deadlifts, cleans.
但我不认识很多女性，我知道她们在那里，但我不认识很多在多关节上进行单打训练的女性，比如真正的多关节，比如硬拉、高翻。
I know they're out there, but it's not that common to see in gyms.
我知道它们在那里，但在健身房里并不常见。
And this is going to no doubt spark a debate because some of the older, slightly ornery, but very credentialed strength training folks have been online recently saying that as people pass 35, that they shouldn't do squats, that they shouldn't do deadlifts, and certainly shouldn't do them heavy because of this whole thing of you can do higher reps and you can go to failure and still get hypertrophy.
这无疑会引发一场争论，因为一些年龄较大、脾气暴躁、但非常有资历的力量训练人士最近在网上表示，当人们过了 35 岁后，他们不应该做深蹲、硬拉，当然也不应该做大重量的训练，因为你可以做更高的次数，但你可能会力竭，但仍然会变得肥大。
But what I love is that you're not necessarily talking about hypertrophy, maybe some hypertrophy, but this is about strength.
但我喜欢的是，你不一定在谈论肥大，也许是某种肥大，但这是关于力量的。
This is about building more strength.
这是为了增强力量。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And triples and doubles and singles, that's awesome.
还有三人组、双打和单打，太棒了。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It's hard.
这很难。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
That's awesome.
太棒了。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It's so hard.
太难了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And it's the part that I'm all about the last 30 minutes we're in, it's hit, and that's hard.
这就是我所关注的最后 30 分钟的部分，它受到了打击，这很难。
It's a different kind of hard.
这是一种不同的困难。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But for me, the strength training is the hardest, and there's definitely a mental component, right?
但对我来说，力量训练是最难的，而且肯定有心理成分吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Where I do not want to do it.
我不想做的地方。
It's like you talk about with cold plunging, right?
这就像你谈论的冷暴，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It's so unpleasant, and you don't want to do it.
这太不愉快了，你不想这样做。
And you do it, and it's like that mental toughness that you're building, right?
当你这样做时，就像你正在建立的心理韧性一样，对吗？
That's what I experience when I'm doing these strength training exercises that I'm doing.
这就是我在进行力量训练时所经历的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And I don't know if it's going to get easier.
我不知道它是否会变得更容易。
Maybe it will.
也许会的。
It hasn't yet.
还没有。
I still dread it, but I do it, and I'm proud of myself for doing it.
我仍然害怕它，但我做到了，并且我为自己做到了这一点感到自豪。
But it's definitely hard, and I am getting stronger, I think mentally and obviously physically as well.
但这确实很难，而且我正在变得越来越坚强，我认为在精神上，显然在身体上也是如此。
But I have to add in the aerobic as well, though.
但我还必须添加有氧运动。
I think that's really important.
我认为这非常重要。
It's not all-
这还不是全部——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's your base.
那是你的基地。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For sure.
当然。
You love it.
你喜欢它。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I love it, and I do think-
我喜欢它，而且我确实认为——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
cardiorespiratory fitness is very important-
心肺健康非常重要——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Sure
当然可以
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
for long-term health as well as obviously building muscle and strength.
为了长期健康以及明显增强肌肉和力量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Well, on the one hand, I want for you as a friend for you to hate the heavy work less.
嗯，一方面，我希望你作为朋友，让你少讨厌繁重的工作。
On the other hand, I don't because of this ...
另一方面，我并不因为这个...
literature, I'm sure you're familiar with it, but the anterior midcingulate cortex, this brain area that is hyperplastic throughout the lifespan, which is rare for a brain area.
文献中，我相信你很熟悉它，但是前中扣带皮层，这个大脑区域在整个生命周期中都在增生，这对于大脑区域来说是罕见的。
And it enlarges when we do things we don't want to do.
当我们做我们不想做的事情时，它就会放大。
It's so clear.
太清楚了。
It's not just about doing hard things, it's about doing the hard thing you hate.
这不仅仅是做困难的事情，而是做你讨厌的困难的事情。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And for you, that sounds like the heavy compound movements.
对你来说，这听起来像是重型复合动作。
For me, yeah, I don't like the cold plunge, which is why I do it.
对我来说，是的，我不喜欢冷落，这就是我这样做的原因。
I don't think it's magic.
我不认为这是魔法。
I just think it's a surefire stimulus that I hate to get mentally stronger.
我只是认为这是一种肯定的刺激，我讨厌让自己的精神变得更强大。
And I think having something that you really despise, that you know is good for you, seems to keep this anterior midcingulate cortex volume either increasing or the same, and that's actually the thing in these so-called superagers that is the strongest anatomical correlate that we have.
我认为拥有一些你真正鄙视的东西，你知道对你有好处，似乎可以使前扣带皮层体积增加或保持不变，而这实际上是这些所谓的超级老人的东西，是我们拥有的最强的解剖学相关性。
So, on the one hand, I hope it gets easier.
所以，一方面，我希望事情变得更容易。
On the other hand, for your sake, I hope it doesn't get easier-
另一方面，为了你的缘故，我希望事情不会变得更容易——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Well-
嗯-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because it's going to be so much more beneficial.
因为这会带来更多好处。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I have a coach-
我有一个教练——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
who can tell when it's getting easier, and she will definitely up the weight.
谁知道什么时候变得容易了，她肯定会增加体重。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It keeps-
它保持着——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
it keeps going up.
它一直在上升。
And so it doesn't-
所以它不-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
it gets easier in a sense, but it doesn't, right?
从某种意义上说，它变得更容易，但事实并非如此，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So, I think that's the whole point, is you're building strength, and you keep making it heavier, and it becomes harder again because now it's heavier.
所以，我认为这就是重点，你正在增强力量，你不断地增加它的重量，它又变得更难，因为现在它更重了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Awesome.
太棒了。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But, and I haven't gotten injured, so that's also knock on wood.
但是，我还没有受伤，所以这也是很困难的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
No, knock on wood.
不，敲木头。
Thank you for rounding out that picture.
感谢您完善该图片。
It's super inspiring for men and women.
这对男人和女人来说都是超级鼓舞人心的。
So-
所以——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It's not easy to post on social media because obviously I'm a newbie, so I have all sorts of ways I can improve.
在社交媒体上发帖并不容易，因为显然我是一个新手，所以我有各种各样的方法可以改进。
But I'm posting it.
但我正在发布它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, and the fact that you're working down into triples, doubles, and singles, I think is something that I'm trying to do more of, and I think this notion that you can get hypertrophy with higher reps if you take it to failure, sure, I totally agree.
嗯，事实上，你正在练习三重、双打和单打，我认为这是我正在尝试做更多的事情，我认为如果你失败了，你可以通过更高的次数获得肥大的概念，当然，我完全同意。
Read the studies, totally agree with the data, but not everything is about hypertrophy.
阅读研究，完全同意数据，但并非一切都与肥大有关。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think that's what people forget.
我认为这就是人们忘记的。
It's not all about growing muscle.
这不仅仅是增长肌肉。
And VO2 max, which is great, but it's not all about the top contour.
还有最大摄氧量，这很棒，但它不仅仅与顶部轮廓有关。
And what I love about the way you approach everything is you go through multiple layers of the health stratus, as it were.
我喜欢你处理一切事情的方式，因为你可以说是经历了多层的健康层。
This is probably a good opportunity to talk about protein, because I have a very specific question about protein.
这可能是谈论蛋白质的好机会，因为我有一个关于蛋白质的非常具体的问题。
We all hear one gram of quality protein per pound of body weight or lean body weight.
我们都听说每磅体重或去脂体重含有一克优质蛋白质。
That's sort of what's thrown at us.
这就是我们面临的问题。
By doing the heavier weight training, do you notice that your protein appetite has increased?
通过进行更重的重量训练，您是否注意到您的蛋白质食欲有所增加？
Like appetite specifically for protein foods.
喜欢特别对蛋白质食物的食欲。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I don't know that I have.
我不知道我有。
I interestingly have been doing a little bit more intermittent fasting, which people think about intermittent fasting, they think about it as just one thing, one intervention.
有趣的是，我一直在做更多的间歇性禁食，人们认为间歇性禁食，他们认为这只是一件事，一种干预。
I think it's two.
我认为是两个。
There's a behavioral aspect to it-
这有一个行为方面的问题——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
where it's a tool to sort of lower the amount of calories you're taking in.
它是一种降低你摄入的卡路里量的工具。
The other one would be this metabolic switch.
另一个是代谢开关。
But so I've actually, since, I don't know, September, maybe, last September of 2025, been doing more intermittent fasting.
但实际上，我不知道，从 9 月份，也许是 2025 年的去年 9 月份开始，我一直在进行更多的间歇性禁食。
And what I mean by that is just really just eating less.
我的意思就是少吃一点。
And the reason for that is because I noticed that everything that I was doing, which was, I eat healthy, I exercise a lot, and yet I was sort of gaining more fat in the belly section, right, the visceral fat.
原因是因为我注意到我所做的一切，即我健康饮食，我经常锻炼，但我的腹部脂肪（对，内脏脂肪）却增加了更多。
And the only thing that really helped me stop that, put the brakes on, was getting more in a caloric deficit.
唯一真正能帮助我阻止这种情况、踩刹车的是更多的热量赤字。
So maybe my drive to do that kind of is skewing whether or not my appetite for protein would go up.
因此，也许我这样做的动力会影响我对蛋白质的胃口是否会增加。
But I personally am on the scale of 1.2 to 1.6 grams per kilogram body weight, which maybe-
但我个人的标准是每公斤体重 1.2 到 1.6 克，这可能-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Per kilogram.
每公斤。
Okay
好的
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
per kilogram, which is probably a little bit less than the pound.
每公斤，可能比磅少一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
It's a kind of a throwaway-
这是一种一次性的东西——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
A gram per-
每克一克
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
statement.
声明。
A gram-
一克-
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
per pound
每磅
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of quality protein, as defined as something with lots of the essential amino acids and so forth, per pound or per lean pound of body mass.
优质蛋白质的定义是每磅或每磅瘦体重含有大量必需氨基酸等。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is something I think I and many other people shoot for, but I'm curious how religious you are about the getting a certain protein amount or per meal.
我想这是我和许多其他人都追求的目标，但我很好奇你对每餐摄入一定量的蛋白质有多虔诚。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Basically, it wasn't working for me in terms of I was really trying to aim for the higher end of the-
基本上，它对我来说不起作用，因为我真的想瞄准更高端的目标——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
for me, 1.6 grams per kilogram body weight, or even a little bit above that.
对我来说，每公斤体重1.6克，甚至更高一点。
And what I found, what was happening, is that I was actually gaining more weight because I think I was consuming more calories at the same time.
我发现，正在发生的事情是，我的体重实际上增加了，因为我认为我同时消耗了更多的卡路里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
If you're getting it from whole foods, right?
如果你从天然食品中获取它，对吧？
That's just kind of naturally going to happen.
这是很自然的事情。
And so I had to slide down.
所以我不得不滑下来。
But I'm still, like I said, I'm still getting within that range of probably on average maybe 1.3, 1.4 grams per kilogram body weight, and it's really worked well for me.
但我仍然，就像我说的，我仍然处于平均每公斤体重 1.3、1.4 克的范围内，这对我来说确实很有效。
But people are different, and you have different goals, right?
但人是不同的，你有不同的目标，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I'm gaining muscle mass, and I feel like all my training is the most important thing, and I think that we need...
我正在增加肌肉质量，我觉得我所有的训练都是最重要的，我认为我们需要......
Generally speaking, I think people should become more obsessed with training and less obsessed with protein.
一般来说，我认为人们应该更加痴迷于训练，而不是痴迷于蛋白质。
The protein will complement the training.
蛋白质将补充训练。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And as you mentioned, if you're training, perhaps your appetite for protein will increase, and so you'll start to eat more protein and less refined carbohydrates.
正如您提到的，如果您正在训练，也许您对蛋白质的食欲会增加，因此您会开始吃更多的蛋白质和更少的精制碳水化合物。
I already wasn't eating a lot of refined, ultra-processed foods in the first place.
我一开始就没有吃太多精制、超加工食品。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Probably not the answer you were expecting, but it's really, for me, focusing on getting more protein was not working for my body in terms of...
可能不是你期待的答案，但对我来说，专注于获取更多蛋白质对我的身体来说确实不起作用......
But then again, I'm 47 years old.
但话又说回来，我已经47岁了。
That perimenopause phase, very different than someone who's 37, maybe.
也许，围绝经期阶段与 37 岁的人非常不同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't know the answer to that.
我不知道答案。
I do know that I hear from more and more people these days that they are having a hard time getting that one gram of protein per pound of body weight.
我确实知道，现在我听到越来越多的人说，他们很难获得每磅体重一克蛋白质。
It feels like a lot to them, is what they're saying.
正如他们所说，这对他们来说意义重大。
They feel like they're kind of forcing themselves to do it.
他们觉得他们有点强迫自己这样做。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
You shouldn't feel that way.
你不应该有这样的感觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Exactly.
正是如此。
So I'm actually really pleased with your answer, not because I have an agenda here, but because I and many other people seem to feel like unless there's a lot of resistance training or tremendous demands like hiking while backpacking, where if you burn tons of calories, you're basically rucking like nine hours a day, right?
所以我实际上对你的回答很满意，不是因为我在这里有一个议程，而是因为我和许多其他人似乎都觉得，除非有大量的阻力训练或背包徒步旅行等巨大的需求，否则如果你燃烧大量的卡路里，你基本上每天都会工作九个小时，对吗？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That they have a hard time getting that much protein down.
他们很难吸收那么多蛋白质。
And I think that's also the case if people are eating starches, like I eat rice and oatmeal and some breads and things like that.
我认为如果人们吃淀粉类食物，情况也是如此，就像我吃米饭、燕麦片和一些面包之类的东西。
Not a lot of bread, but it sounds like you eat starches, right?
面包不多，但听起来你吃的是淀粉，对吧？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I do eat oatmeal, too.
我也吃燕麦片
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It does satiate you.
它确实让你满足。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
These days, because I really kind of more focused a little bit on, I did want to calorically restrict somewhat without being unhealthy.
这些天，因为我真的更专注一点，所以我确实想在不健康的情况下限制热量。
Obviously, you can take every stressor to a-
显然，你可以将每一个压力源带到-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
bad, unhealthy place, right?
糟糕、不健康的地方，对吗？
You don't want to starve yourself.
你不想让自己挨饿。
You don't want to not eat enough food.
你不想吃不够的食物。
But my meals are mostly healthy protein.
但我的膳食主要是健康的蛋白质。
So I have homemade turkey burgers.
所以我有自制的火鸡汉堡。
I eat a lot of those.
我吃了很多这样的东西。
And then I eat chicken.
然后我吃鸡肉。
I pasture-raise chicken.
我放牧养鸡。
I do still eat wild Alaskan salmon, and then I'll also mix in some filet mignon.
我仍然吃野生阿拉斯加鲑鱼，然后我还会拌入一些菲力牛排。
I like grass-fed steak as well.
我也喜欢草饲牛排。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yum.
嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Those are my protein sources.
这些是我的蛋白质来源。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And always I pair it with greens.
我总是将它与绿色蔬菜搭配。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Or some sort of vegetable.
或者某种蔬菜。
Most of the time it's greens because they're the most micronutrient-dense.
大多数时候是绿色蔬菜，因为它们是微量营养素最密集的。
And so these days I'm eating a lot of sautéed collard greens that are pre-prepared, has garlic and onion, and I'll put that, I'll have that with my meal, or I'll have some sautéed kale.
所以这些天我吃了很多预先准备好的炒羽衣甘蓝，里面有大蒜和洋葱，我会把它和我的饭菜一起吃，或者我会吃一些炒羽衣甘蓝。
Sometimes I'll have a salad with it, but the portions are smaller, and like I said, I also do a little bit of intermittent fasting.
有时我会配一份沙拉，但份量较小，而且就像我说的，我也会做一点间歇性禁食。
We can talk about that as well, but that's kind of these days what I'm doing for my meals.
我们也可以谈论这个，但这就是这些天我吃饭的方式。
I haven't eaten as much.
我没吃那么多。
Sometimes I'll eat the high protein oats.
有时我会吃高蛋白燕麦。
They have those high protein oats.
他们有高蛋白燕麦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Have you seen those?
你见过那些吗？
They're pretty good.
他们都很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, I eat oatmeal, but I like protein foods, I like vegetables, I like fruit.
不，我吃燕麦片，但我喜欢蛋白质食物，我喜欢蔬菜，我喜欢水果。
I feel very lucky to like those foods mainly.
我觉得很幸运主要喜欢这些食物。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then the starch for me has to be very clean.
然后对我来说淀粉必须非常干净。
I like oatmeal, rice.
我喜欢吃燕麦片、米饭。
Homemade pastas I'll eat.
我要吃自制的面食。
If I go out, sometimes I'll have some homemade pasta-
如果出去的话，有时我会吃一些自制的面食——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or a sourdough bread or something.
或者酵母面包什么的。
But I find that most starches that are out there in the world have a bunch of other junk in them, and I just feel lousy.
但我发现世界上大多数淀粉都含有一堆其他垃圾，我只是感觉很糟糕。
I get kind of sleepy afterwards.
之后我会有点困。
So it sounds like we eat pretty similarly, although I probably eat more starches than you do.
所以听起来我们吃的东西很相似，尽管我可能比你吃更多的淀粉。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It's the more processed types of carbohydrates-
这是经过更多加工的碳水化合物类型-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
that as you mentioned, it's like you typically don't feel good after you eat them, and-
正如你提到的，吃完它们后你通常感觉不舒服，而且-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
part of that's the postprandial inflammatory response-
其中一部分是餐后炎症反应-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
because some of those foods are a little more inflammatory.
因为其中一些食物更具炎症性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I mean, a lot of additives and stuff that are affecting the gut, gut permeabilization, you're leaking lipopolysaccharide into the bloodstream, right?
我的意思是，很多添加剂和物质会影响肠道、肠道透化，导致脂多糖泄漏到血液中，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yikes.
哎呀。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
That's activating the immune system.
这就是激活免疫系统。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We used to inject...
我们以前注射...
I don't do any animal experiments anymore, and I'm actually grateful to not do them.
我不再做任何动物实验了，而且我真的很庆幸没有做这些实验。
So I didn't like working on animals, but it was what we did until I decided to work on humans.
所以我不喜欢对动物进行研究，但在我决定对人类进行研究之前，我们就是这么做的。
But we used to inject LPS to stimulate an inflammatory response to kind of prime a regeneration response that you could get through macrophages and things like that.
但我们过去常常注射脂多糖来刺激炎症反应，从而引发再生反应，这种反应可以通过巨噬细胞等来实现。
And so LPS is a very potent way to generate local or even systemic inflammation.
因此，LPS 是产生局部甚至全身炎症的一种非常有效的方式。
I think hearing that some starches will stimulate LPS, that's interesting.
我觉得听说有些淀粉会刺激脂多糖，这很有趣。
And it-
还有它——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Well, let me clarify
好吧，让我澄清一下
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
squares with my experience.
与我的经验相符。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Let me clarify.
让我澄清一下。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm not challenging.
我不具有挑战性。
No, I'm not challenging.
不，我不是在挑战。
It squares with my experiences.
这与我的经历相符。
I'm one of these, I never get stomach aches, I never get headaches.
我就是其中之一，我从不胃痛，我从不头痛。
If I do, something's badly wrong with my stomach or my head.
如果我这样做了，我的胃或我的头就会出现严重问题。
But if I eat certain starches, I'll be like, "Oh," like I feel lousy, and I'm wondering if it's this.
但如果我吃了某些淀粉类食物，我就会说，“哦，”我感觉很糟糕，我想知道是不是这个。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So we have about a gram of LPS in our gut.
所以我们的肠道里大约有一克脂多糖。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
That's on average because lipopolysaccharide is the outer component of a cell membrane of gram-negative bacteria, right?
这是平均水平，因为脂多糖是革兰氏阴性细菌细胞膜的外部成分，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeast, yeah.
酵母，是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
We have a lot of bacteria in our gut.
我们的肠道里有很多细菌。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Gram-negative bacteria, right?
革兰氏阴性菌，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Trillions of bacteria in our gut.
我们的肠道里有数万亿细菌。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So when we eat food, typically, our gut epithelial cells, we have a tight junction that's holding them together.
因此，当我们吃食物时，通常是我们的肠道上皮细胞，我们有一个紧密的连接将它们连接在一起。
When we eat food, they transiently open and then close.
当我们吃食物时，它们会短暂地打开然后关闭。
It's kind of a normal response, right?
这是一种正常的反应，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I would say the opposite end of the spectrum of that would be celiac, where-
我想说的另一端是乳糜泻，其中-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
they eat gluten or something, it opens up and stays open, and so you get a ton of LPS leakage into the system, which causes massive inflammation.
他们吃麸质或其他东西，它会打开并保持打开状态，因此大量 LPS 泄漏到系统中，从而导致严重炎症。
It just happens with meals in general.
一般情况下，吃饭时都会出现这种情况。
You do get somewhat of a LPS response from a meal.
您确实会从进餐中得到一定程度的 LPS 反应。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Now, the type of meal does matter.
现在，膳食类型确实很重要。
So when I say refined carbohydrates, it's not necessarily healthy carbohydrates like vegetables.
所以当我说精制碳水化合物时，它不一定是像蔬菜这样的健康碳水化合物。
It's like you're eating something that is refined sugar, typically with saturated fat.
这就像你吃的是精制糖，通常含有饱和脂肪。
So those types of foods really cause LPS response.
所以这些类型的食物确实会引起 LPS 反应。
It's inflammation.
这是炎症。
It's bad.
这很糟糕。
It's hard on the gut.
肠胃很难受。
But the postprandial inflammatory response essentially is that LPS getting into the system, activating the immune system, which draws the energy.
但餐后炎症反应本质上是LPS进入系统，激活免疫系统，从而吸收能量。
It's very energy-consuming to activate your immune system, right?
激活你的免疫系统是非常消耗能量的，对吧？
Which is why when you're sick you're so sleepy, too, right?
这就是为什么当你生病的时候你也会很困，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Well, there's also cytokines that are somnogenic and promoting sleep, but activating your immune system requires a ton of energy.
嗯，还有一些细胞因子可以促进睡眠并促进睡眠，但激活免疫系统需要大量能量。
And so when you're constantly activating the immune system, that's an energy sink, right?
所以当你不断激活免疫系统时，这就是一个能量槽，对吗？
And so you do feel tired, and that's why a lot of times after a meal you're feeling kind of lethargic.
所以你确实会感到疲倦，这就是为什么很多时候饭后你会感觉有点昏昏欲睡。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do protein foods of the sort that you listed off before, do they cause less opening of the tight junctions of the gut?
您之前列出的那种蛋白质食物是否会导致肠道紧密连接的打开减少？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I think the big deal with the opening of the tight junctions in the gut is eating a big meal will do it.
我认为肠道内紧密连接的打开最重要的是吃一顿大餐就可以了。
Eating a very ultra-processed food meal will do it.
吃一顿高度加工的食物就可以了。
Interestingly enough, just eating a bunch of saturated fat without a fiber matrix, so like butter.
有趣的是，只吃一堆没有纤维基质的饱和脂肪，就像黄油一样。
You're just eating butter.
你只是在吃黄油。
Don't ever do that, but if you just eat butter
永远不要这样做，但如果你只吃黄油
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it.
明白了。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
That's been shown.
这已经被证明了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My niece, when she was little, now she's all grown up, but when she was little, I taught her how to eat a little bit of Kerrygold butter, and she loved it.
我的侄女，小时候，现在她都长大了，但是当她很小的时候，我教她怎么吃一点Kerrygold黄油，她很喜欢。
So then we would do this thing where we'd- We do that.
那么我们就会做这件事，我们会做那件事。
We won't do that anymore.
我们不会再这样做了。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
A little bit's fine.
一点点就好了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
So good.
超好的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
There's studies showing that saturated fat is hard on the gut.
研究表明，饱和脂肪对肠道有害。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Like I said, it's a sliding scale.
就像我说的，这是一个滑动比例。
Like meals in general do it, but it's like you would think.
就像一般的饭菜一样，但它就像你想的那样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
The healthier foods that you're eating, like whole foods, you're getting less of that LPS response.
您吃的食物越健康，例如天然食品，您获得的 LPS 反应就越少。
And then, of course, there's gluten, and that complicates the whole story, especially for people that are celiac.
当然，还有麸质，这让整个故事变得复杂，特别是对于乳糜泻患者来说。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is a small percentage-
这是一个很小的比例——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It is
它是
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of people are actually celiac.
的人实际上患有乳糜泻。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But a lot of people seem to believe, and I believe them, that when they eat gluten, they feel worse than when they don't eat gluten.
但很多人似乎相信，我也相信他们，当他们吃麸质时，他们的感觉比不吃麸质时更糟糕。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I'm sure there's some people that are sensitive to gluten that do feel worse.
我确信有些对麸质敏感的人确实感觉更糟。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And then I'm sure some of that's the nocebo effect.
然后我确信其中一些是反安慰剂效应。
That's been shown with gluten in particular.
尤其是麸质，这一点得到了证明。
Have you seen that study?
你看过那个研究吗？
So there were people that think they're gluten sensitive, and so they were enrolled in this study, and these individuals were separated into two groups.
有些人认为自己对麸质敏感，所以他们参加了这项研究，这些人被分为两组。
One group was given the gluten, bread with gluten, and the other group was given the bread without gluten.
一组吃的是麸质、含麸质的面包，另一组吃的是不含麸质的面包。
And the people that were given the bread without gluten had a terrible abdominal response.
吃不含麸质面包的人的腹部反应很糟糕。
They were bloated.
他们很臃肿。
They felt terrible.
他们感觉很糟糕。
And there was no gluten in the actual bread, but they thought there was.
实际的面包中没有麸质，但他们认为有。
So it was thought that there's a nocebo effect where it's like the opposite of a placebo effect, where you've got that phenotype where you think things negative are going to happen, and you can make them happen.
因此，人们认为存在反安慰剂效应，它就像安慰剂效应的相反，你有这样的表型，你认为负面的事情将会发生，并且你可以让它们发生。
You can change your immune system.
您可以改变您的免疫系统。
You can change your brain signaling.
你可以改变你的大脑信号。
And so probably a combination of both-
所以可能是两者的结合——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
with that regard.
在这方面。
In addition to the lethargy, so I was talking about in the context, that's why it sparked my interest, is you were talking about feeling tired after a meal, and I do think that is part of that reason for feeling sleepy.
除了嗜睡之外，我在上下文中谈到了这就是为什么它激发了我的兴趣，你在谈论饭后感到疲倦，我确实认为这是感到困倦的部分原因。
But what's interesting about LPS, you talked about injecting it to mice, and I've also done experiments injecting LPS into mice.
但是LPS有趣的是，你谈到给小鼠注射LPS，我也做过给小鼠注射LPS的实验。
There have been studies where people have been injected with an amount of LPS that is similar to what you would find your gut releasing into your bloodstream or a placebo control, which in this case was saline.
有研究表明，人们被注射了一定量的 LPS，其量与肠道释放到血液中的 LPS 或安慰剂对照（在本例中为盐水）类似。
And individuals that were injected with the LPS, high amounts of inflammatory markers like TNF alpha, we're talking up to a 50% increase-
注射 LPS 的个体，大量炎症标记物（如 TNF α），我们所说的增加了 50%——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Whoa
哇哦
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
over baseline.
超过基线。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So high amounts of inflammation, which makes sense.
如此大量的炎症，这是有道理的。
LPS is activating the immune system, is like, "There's a foreign invader." It's not a foreign invader, it's just the food you ate that caused transient gut permeability.
LPS正在激活免疫系统，就像“有外来入侵者”。这不是外来入侵者，而是您吃的食物导致了短暂的肠道通透性。
And those individuals also feel depressive symptoms and feelings of social withdrawal.
这些人还会感到抑郁症状和社交退缩感。
So the inflammation is affecting the brain.
所以炎症正在影响大脑。
These inflammatory factors are getting in the brain, crossing the blood-brain barrier, and affecting the way we feel.
这些炎症因子进入大脑，穿过血脑屏障，影响我们的感觉。
And we know now that inflammation plays a big role in major depressive disorder and depression.
我们现在知道炎症在重度抑郁症和抑郁症中起着重要作用。
Not in all cases, but there's a subset where it seems to play a big role.
并非在所有情况下，但有一个子集似乎发挥了重要作用。
In fact, interestingly, there's been some studies showing that people that don't respond to SSRIs have very high amounts of C-reactive protein.
事实上，有趣的是，有一些研究表明，对 SSRI 没有反应的人体内的 C 反应蛋白含量非常高。
So this is the classical biomarker for inflammation.
所以这是炎症的经典生物标志物。
I would argue it's not that sensitive, but nonetheless, it is a biomarker for inflammation.
我认为它不是那么敏感，但尽管如此，它是炎症的生物标志物。
And so people that don't respond to SSRIs have high amounts of inflammation, which kind of raises this question of, is there this subset of depression that's really inflammatory driven?
因此，对 SSRI 没有反应的人会出现大量炎症，这就提出了这样一个问题：是否存在真正由炎症驱动的抑郁症子集？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Interesting.
有趣。
So the LPS is affecting not only our energy levels, but also our mood.
因此，LPS 不仅影响我们的能量水平，还影响我们的情绪。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And then there's also evidence that...
然后还有证据表明...
So we know that LPS binds to LDL particles through lipid-lipid interactions, and in fact, it's kind of part of the adaptive response.
所以我们知道 LPS 通过脂类相互作用与 LDL 颗粒结合，事实上，这是适应性反应的一部分。
It's why you don't want to ever go get your cholesterol measured right after you're sick or had a very stressful event, something that causes inflammation, because vLDL production increases, and LDL production increases, and it's sort of an adaptive response to bind that LPS to prevent it from causing more damage.
这就是为什么你不想在生病或经历压力很大的事件（会导致炎症）后立即测量胆固醇，因为 vLDL 的产生会增加，而 LDL 的产生也会增加，这是一种与 LPS 结合以防止其造成更多损害的适应性反应。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And so it actually binds to LDL particles on the ApoB protein.
因此它实际上与 ApoB 蛋白上的 LDL 颗粒结合。
So ApoB is a protein that is on these lipoproteins, and it's a very important protein because that is what's used by the LDL receptors present on our liver to recycle LDL particles.
因此，ApoB 是这些脂蛋白上的一种蛋白质，它是一种非常重要的蛋白质，因为我们肝脏上的 LDL 受体利用它来回收 LDL 颗粒。
And so what happens is these LPS particles are now bound to our lipoproteins, and our lipoproteins are still doing their function, right?
那么，这些 LPS 颗粒现在与我们的脂蛋白结合，而我们的脂蛋白仍然发挥其功能，对吗？
They're going around, and they're giving triglycerides and fatty acids and, to some degree, cholesterol to our cells that need it.
它们四处活动，为我们需要的细胞提供甘油三酯和脂肪酸，并在某种程度上提供胆固醇。
We're constantly making new cells and repairing, and our cells need that.
我们不断地制造新细胞并进行修复，我们的细胞需要这些。
As they donate triglycerides and fatty acids, they get smaller in size.
当它们贡献甘油三酯和脂肪酸时，它们的尺寸就会变小。
The lipoproteins, you probably heard of small, dense LDL, right?
脂蛋白，您可能听说过小而密的低密度脂蛋白，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
That's a very dangerous type of LDL particle.
这是一种非常危险的低密度脂蛋白颗粒。
And that's one that's kind of been donating along, getting rid of triglycerides and whatever.
这就是一种一直在捐赠的东西，摆脱了甘油三酯之类的东西。
If you think about a train with cargo, it's dropping off the cargo.
如果你想象一列载有货物的火车，它就是在卸下货物。
And so when it's time to get recycled back into the liver, what do you know?
那么，当需要再循环回肝脏时，您知道什么？
The ApoB protein's obscured by that LPS, and it's not recycled.
ApoB 蛋白被 LPS 掩盖，并且不会被回收。
And so it gets lodged into the arterial wall.
因此它会卡在动脉壁中。
And because there's an LPS bound to this small, dense LDL particle, macrophages, which are, as you mentioned, it's like the first line of defense against something like a bacterial invader.
因为 LPS 与这种小而致密的 LDL 颗粒（巨噬细胞）结合，正如您提到的，它就像抵御细菌入侵者的第一道防线。
It comes and chews it up, gets rid of the problem.
它来了，把它嚼碎，解决了问题。
So macrophages come in because they're seeing this signal of LPS and think it's a foreign invader when it's actually just a small, dense LDL particle bound to LPS that came from the gut, tries to engulf it, but it can't because it's not bacteria.
因此，巨噬细胞介入是因为它们看到了 LPS 的信号，并认为它是外来入侵者，而实际上它只是一个与 LPS 结合的小而致密的 LDL 颗粒，来自肠道，试图吞噬它，但它不能，因为它不是细菌。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And you get the macrophage stuck to that lipoprotein LPS complex, and you get the formation of a foam cell.
然后巨噬细胞粘附在脂蛋白 LPS 复合物上，形成泡沫细胞。
You probably heard of a foam cell.
您可能听说过泡沫单元。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It's the beginning of atherosclerosis.
这是动脉粥样硬化的开始。
And so this is where gut health and the food we eat is linked to cardiovascular health.
因此，这就是肠道健康和我们所吃的食物与心血管健康相关的地方。
Gut permeability, getting that LPS into our circulation's actually not a very good thing because you're basically ...
肠道渗透性，让 LPS 进入我们的循环实际上并不是一件好事，因为你基本上......
slow dripping in that inflammation, that inflammatory signal, and it's wreaking havoc in our arteries, on our brain.
炎症、炎症信号慢慢渗入，对我们的动脉和大脑造成严重破坏。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 for nearly 15 years now.
你们很多人都知道，我服用 AG1 已有近 15 年了。
I discovered it way back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since.
我早在 2012 年就发现了它，那时我还没有播客，从那时起我就每天都在听它。
The reason I started taking it, and the reason I still take it, is because AG1 is, to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market.
我开始服用它的原因，以及我仍然服用它的原因，是因为据我所知，AG1是市场上质量最高、最全面的基础营养补充剂。
It combines vitamins, minerals, prebiotics, probiotics, and adaptogens into a single scoop that's easy to drink, and it tastes great.
它将维生素、矿物质、益生元、益生菌和适应原结合到一勺中，易于饮用，味道极佳。
It's designed to support things like gut health, immune health, and overall energy, and it does so by helping to fill any gaps you might have in your daily nutrition.
它旨在支持肠道健康、免疫健康和整体能量等，并通过帮助填补您日常营养中可能存在的任何缺口来实现这一目标。
Now, of course, everyone should strive to eat nutritious whole foods.
当然，现在每个人都应该努力吃有营养的天然食品。
I certainly do that every day.
我当然每天都这样做。
But I'm often asked, "If you could take just one supplement, what would that supplement be?" And my answer is always AG1, because it has just been so critical to supporting all aspects of my physical health, mental health, and performance.
但我经常被问到，“如果你只能服用一种补充剂，你会选择什么补充剂？”我的答案始终是 AG1，因为它对于支持我的身体健康、心理健康和表现的各个方面都非常重要。
I know this from my own experience with AG1, and I continually hear this from other people who use AG1 daily.
我从自己使用 AG1 的经验中了解到这一点，并且我不断从其他每天使用 AG1 的人那里听到这一点。
If you would like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 以获得特别优惠。
For a limited time, AG1 is giving away six free travel packs of AG1 and a bottle of vitamin D3 K2 with your subscription.
限时订阅后，AG1 将赠送 6 个免费 AG1 旅行包和一瓶维生素 D3 K2。
Again, that's drinkag1, with the numeral one, .com/huberman to get six free travel packs and a bottle of vitamin D3 K2 with your subscription.
同样，这是 Drinkag1，通过数字 1 .com/huberman 订阅即可获得六个免费旅行包和一瓶维生素 D3 K2。
Thank you for explaining that so clearly because I don't think anyone has ever explained how exactly gut health is signaling cardiovascular health or pushing or pulling down on or raising cardiovascular health.
感谢您如此清楚地解释这一点，因为我认为没有人解释过肠道健康到底是如何向心血管健康发出信号，或者如何推动或拉低或提高心血管健康的。
As a neuro guy, I think about the vagus nerve as the primary conduit between gut and brain, and I was recalling that LPS injected into the gut is how you actually experimentally induce a fever, and if you cut the vagus, no fever.
作为一名神经学家，我认为迷走神经是肠道和大脑之间的主要管道，我记得将脂多糖注射到肠道中实际上是通过实验诱发发烧的，如果你切断迷走神经，就不会发烧。
So there seems to be something about the way that the gut communicates with the brain and other organs that is critically dependent on some threshold level of LPS.
因此，肠道与大脑和其他器官的沟通方式似乎严重依赖于 LPS 的某个阈值水平。
Thank you also for reminding us that LPS is present in the gut because we have yeast in our gut, some amount of yeast.
还要感谢您提醒我们，LPS 存在于肠道中，因为我们肠道中有酵母，一定量的酵母。
You mentioned tight junctions, and the way I think about tight junctions, please correct me because I'm going to get some or all of this wrong, is that essentially they form a cellular fence in the gut, and that transient opening or partial opening of these is a normal process.
你提到了紧密连接，以及我对紧密连接的看法，请纠正我，因为我会犯一些或全部错误，本质上它们在肠道中形成细胞栅栏，而它们的短暂打开或部分打开是一个正常过程。
But it sounds like after a meal, some bacteria, when you say leaks out into our system, it's literally going into the bloodstream.
但听起来就像饭后，一些细菌，当你说泄漏到我们的系统中时，它实际上是进入了血液。
So now we have bacteria circulating, and if some of that is small enough to get across the blood-brain barrier, that's another way that bacteria can start to cause inflammation at the brain level.
现在我们有细菌在循环，如果其中一些细菌足够小，可以穿过血脑屏障，那么这就是细菌开始引起大脑炎症的另一种方式。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It's LPS, which is the outer component of bacteria that have died.
它是脂多糖，是死亡细菌的外部成分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Actual live bacteria getting in, I don't know as much about that.
实际的活细菌会进入，我对此不太了解。
Perhaps as well, but I know that the LPS is getting in.
也许也是，但我知道 LPS 正在介入。
And I do know that the LPS activating the immune system and stuff in the resident glial cells and stuff in the brain does break down the blood-brain barrier.
我确实知道激活免疫系统的脂多糖以及常驻神经胶质细胞中的物质以及大脑中的物质确实会破坏血脑屏障。
We know neuroinflammation is really some of the early parts of breaking down of the blood-brain barrier, which is the early stages of neurodegenerative disease.
我们知道神经炎症实际上是血脑屏障破坏的早期部分，这是神经退行性疾病的早期阶段。
It is how the gut health is linked to the brain and to neurodegenerative disease as well.
这就是肠道健康与大脑和神经退行性疾病之间的联系。
So it's the inflammation, I think, that's really powerful in terms of it's a driver of the aging process in general.
因此，我认为，炎症对于衰老过程的驱动作用确实非常强大。
Like this inflammation, inflammaging.
像这样的炎症，发炎。
You've heard of inflammaging.
你听说过炎症。
I think now it's pretty clear to me that if you're thinking about the molecular events that are leading to these hallmarks of aging, which lead to the phenotypes and frailty and the diseases, right?
我想现在我很清楚，如果你正在考虑导致这些衰老特征的分子事件，这些特征会导致表型、虚弱和疾病，对吗？
Like type 2 diabetes, cancer, Alzheimer's disease.
比如2型糖尿病、癌症、阿尔茨海默病。
Go upstream of that, and the inflammation is at the core of it.
再往上游走，炎症就是它的核心。
And so we hear this word inflammation a lot, and it's like, what does it mean?
所以我们经常听到“炎症”这个词，它是什么意思？
And it means a lot of things.
这意味着很多事情。
It's not just the gut.
这不仅仅是肠道。
The gut is a component of it, but there's other things as well, right?
肠道是其中的一个组成部分，但还有其他的东西，对吗？
You can have stress, any emotional stress, that can lead to inflammation.
您可能会感到压力，任何情绪压力都会导致炎症。
Not getting enough sleep, right?
睡眠不足，对吧？
There's a lot of things that can lead to inflammation.
有很多因素会导致炎症。
And so it is kind of an important point to think about, is really trying to have your inflammation low, right?
因此，这是需要考虑的一个重要问题，真的是在努力降低炎症，对吗？
And how do you do that?
你如何做到这一点？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm going to take three different jumping-off points here, all related to what you said.
我将在这里采取三个不同的起点，所有这些都与你所说的有关。
So don't think I'm a random subject generator here.
所以不要以为我是这里的随机主题生成器。
We will get back to fasting, I promise.
我保证，我们会恢复禁食。
Lately, you've posted a bit about glutamine as a potential tool to perhaps buffer the immune system under times of stress.
最近，您发布了一些关于谷氨酰胺作为一种潜在工具的文章，它或许可以在压力下缓冲免疫系统。
I've also been interested in L-glutamine as a way to reinforce tight junctions in the gut.
我也对 L-谷氨酰胺作为增强肠道紧密连接的一种方式感兴趣。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't know if that literature is robust or not.
我不知道这些文献是否可靠。
I have to say, I started taking L-glutamine years ago in times when I was working a lot and not sleeping enough because someone told me it would help me not get sick, and indeed, I didn't get sick as much as the imaginary control experiment that I never got to do.
我不得不说，几年前我开始服用L-谷氨酰胺，当时我工作很多，睡眠不足，因为有人告诉我这会帮助我不生病，事实上，我没有像我从未做过的想象中的对照实验那样生病。
Meaning, I don't know if it helped or not, but I continue to take L-glutamine when I'm feeling run down.
意思是，我不知道它是否有帮助，但当我感到疲惫时，我会继续服用 L-谷氨酰胺。
I take a couple of other things, too.
我还带了一些其他东西。
But could you tell us about if or how L-glutamine is important for gut health, and if and how L-glutamine might be helpful for reinforcing the immune system?
但您能否告诉我们 L-谷氨酰胺是否或如何对肠道健康很重要，以及 L-谷氨酰胺是否以及如何有助于增强免疫系统？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
There's not a ton of evidence in terms of what's in the scientific literature supporting these statements, but there is some.
科学文献中没有大量证据支持这些说法，但还是有一些。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And it's enough to kind of go, "Well, I'm going to try to maybe experiment with it." So I first became interested in glutamine because when I was doing my graduate research, I was doing a lot of cancer metabolism studies, and I would do nutrient withdrawal, and I would remove glucose from cancer cells and see what would happen.
就足够了，“好吧，我要尝试一下也许可以尝试一下。”所以我首先对谷氨酰胺感兴趣，因为当我做研究生研究时，我做了很多癌症代谢研究，我会进行营养撤退，我会从癌细胞中去除葡萄糖，看看会发生什么。
And it's like, okay, well, I would remove glucose from ...
就像，好吧，好吧，我会从……中去除葡萄糖。
lymphoma cancer cells in the petri dish, and a lot of them would die, but they wouldn't all die.
培养皿中的淋巴瘤癌细胞，其中很多会死亡，但它们不会全部死亡。
And it was like, "Why aren't they all dying?" Turns out, well, they had glutamine there, so glutamine was enough to sustain them.
就像，“为什么他们没有全部死掉？”事实证明，它们体内含有谷氨酰胺，所以谷氨酰胺足以维持它们的生存。
And so glutamine can be converted into many things.
因此谷氨酰胺可以转化成很多东西。
So glutamine can be an amino acid.
所以谷氨酰胺可以是一种氨基酸。
It's amino acid.
是氨基酸。
Glutamine can be converted into the Krebs cycle, so it can be converted into intermediates that are used to make energy by the mitochondria, and glutamine can be converted into glutamate.
谷氨酰胺可以转化为克雷布斯循环，因此可以转化为线粒体用来制造能量的中间体，并且谷氨酰胺可以转化为谷氨酸。
Neurotransmitter.
神经递质。
So there's a lot of pathways and different fates for glutamine.
因此，谷氨酰胺有很多途径和不同的命运。
So I became interested in that because it was like, oh, glutamine's important for the survival of these cancer cells.
所以我对此很感兴趣，因为它就像，哦，谷氨酰胺对于这些癌细胞的生存很重要。
Then I was doing a lot of activating immune cell studies.
然后我做了很多激活免疫细胞的研究。
My graduate advisor is an immunologist by training, and so I was also doing that.
我的研究生导师是一位受过培训的免疫学家，所以我也在这样做。
Turns out glutamine was essential for the activation of immune cells.
事实证明，谷氨酰胺对于免疫细胞的激活至关重要。
So that was kind of always in the background of my mind.
所以这一直是我脑海中的背景。
And then in my postdoc, I did my postdoc with Dr. Bruce Ames, and my colleague, Dr. Mark Shigenaga, was doing a lot of gut work, and this is why I know a lot about the LPS and the gut.
然后在我的博士后阶段，我和 Bruce Ames 博士一起做博士后，我的同事 Mark Shigenaga 博士做了很多肠道工作，这就是为什么我对 LPS 和肠道了解很多。
It's from him.
是他发的。
Brilliant guy.
才华横溢的家伙。
He's now a photographer, not in science at all, but brilliant guy, and did a lot of really amazing experiments looking at gut permeability and things that can help buffer gut permeability, and one of those things were glutamine.
他现在是一名摄影师，根本不是科学领域的，但却是一位才华横溢的人，做了很多非常令人惊奇的实验，研究肠道通透性和有助于缓冲肠道通透性的物质，其中之一就是谷氨酰胺。
So glutamine can get converted into these intermediates that are used by mitochondria in the gut epithelial cells, and so that's an easy source of energy as well for the gut.
因此，谷氨酰胺可以转化为这些中间体，供肠道上皮细胞中的线粒体使用，因此这对于肠道来说也是一种简单的能量来源。
Now, these are all animal studies, so take it with a grain of salt.
现在，这些都是动物研究，所以要持保留态度。
Because at some point, in my opinion, animal studies are really important for understanding the mechanism behind why things work, and we need human studies as well.
因为在我看来，在某种程度上，动物研究对于理解事物运作背后的机制非常重要，而且我们也需要人类研究。
Looking at the totality of evidence is important.
查看证据的整体性很重要。
It's the human studies that we're lacking.
我们缺乏的是人类研究。
There's not a ton of them there.
那里没有很多。
The ones that I have found more compelling, not necessarily-- With the gut health, it's sparse with humans.
我发现那些更引人注目的，但不一定是——就肠道健康而言，人类很少有这种情况。
I found more compelling with respect to glutamine in human studies was the immune system, and this is where I started connecting the dots.
我发现人类研究中谷氨酰胺更引人注目的是免疫系统，这就是我开始将这些点联系起来的地方。
Where I started coming across this literature of these endurance athletes who do get a higher amount of respiratory tract infections.
我开始接触到这些耐力运动员的文献，他们确实患有较高比例的呼吸道感染。
When I mean endurance athletes, I mean these guys that are out running marathons all year.
当我指的是耐力运动员时，我指的是那些全年都参加马拉松比赛的人。
They're just constantly training for a marathon.
他们只是为了马拉松而不断训练。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And so they're putting a lot of demand.
所以他们提出了很多要求。
Energetic expenditure is happening at a really high rate.
精力充沛的支出正在以非常高的速度发生。
So they're more prone to respiratory infections, and there's a few studies out there showing that if these athletes take a higher dose of glutamine, I think it's 30 grams or something high like that, that they had a lower incidence of respiratory tract infections-
所以他们更容易患呼吸道感染，有一些研究表明，如果这些运动员服用更高剂量的谷氨酰胺，我认为是 30 克或类似的高剂量，他们呼吸道感染的发病率就会降低——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting
有趣
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
compared to the ones that weren't doing it.
与那些没有这样做的人相比。
And then I went back to my, oh, I know that glutamine's really important for T-cell activation.
然后我又回到了我的想法，哦，我知道谷氨酰胺对于 T 细胞激活非常重要。
And I was like, I'm going to take this because being a mom and having a child that's bringing everything home like a vector, you're desperate.
我当时想，我会接受这个，因为作为一个妈妈，有一个像载体一样把所有东西带回家的孩子，你会感到绝望。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're the experiment.
你就是实验品。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
And I never used to get sick, ever.
我从来没有生病过，从来没有。
I would never get sick, and then all of a sudden, I was getting sick three times a year, and I was like, "Do I have cancer?
我永远不会生病，然后突然间，我一年生病三次，我就想，“我得了癌症吗？
What's going on?" I literally was worried.
发生什么事了？”我真的很担心。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And then I started taking glutamine.
然后我开始服用谷氨酰胺。
Now, I only take five grams on a daily basis, but if my son's sick, if there's any exposure, if it's during the season, if I'm traveling, I go up to 15, I go up to 20.
现在，我每天只服用 5 克，但如果我儿子生病了，如果有任何接触，如果是在季节期间，如果我在旅行，我会增加到 15 克，我会增加到 20 克。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All at once?
一下子就全部完成了吗？
Because it can be a little hard on the gut, right?
因为这对肠胃来说可能有点困难，对吧？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
No. Not all at once.
不，不是一次全部。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Not all at once.
不是一下子全部。
I usually do it in fives.
我通常五次做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So I do five grams.
所以我做了五克。
And with the caveat of I do that, but I also take a lot of creatine as well, and so I don't know which one or both.
需要注意的是，我这样做了，但我也服用了大量肌酸，所以我不知道是哪一种或两者都服用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But I really don't get sick.
但我确实没生病。
I'm not getting sick.
我没有生病。
And even if it's brought home in my house, I'm not getting sick.
即使它被带回家，我也不会生病。
And maybe it's a placebo.
也许这是一种安慰剂。
And you know what?
你知道吗？
I am A-OK with that because-
我对此很满意，因为-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
placebo effect is real-
安慰剂效应是真实存在的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
as long as I'm not getting sick.
只要我没有生病。
So I think with the glutamine, it's not something that I would feel comfortable saying that there's a lot of evidence, it's overwhelming, and with confidence that it's improving gut health and it's going to help give your immune cells energy, particularly if they need to be activated upon exposure to any pathogen.
因此，我认为对于谷氨酰胺，我不太愿意说有很多证据，这是压倒性的，并且有信心它可以改善肠道健康，并且有助于为您的免疫细胞提供能量，特别是当它们在接触任何病原体时需要被激活时。
But I feel like it's worth experimenting with.
但我觉得值得尝试。
Perhaps maybe if someone has colon cancer, that would be more of a concern because I did mention that cancer cells love everything.
也许如果有人患有结肠癌，这会更令人担忧，因为我确实提到癌细胞喜欢一切。
Anything that's good for you, right?
任何对你有好处的事，对吗？
Folate.
叶酸。
If you don't have enough folate, you can cause double-stranded breaks to your DNA, which lead to mutations that lead to cancer.
如果您没有足够的叶酸，可能会导致 DNA 双链断裂，从而导致突变，从而导致癌症。
But if you have cancer and you take a bunch of folate, you need folate to make new DNA, and so they like the folate.
但如果你患有癌症并且服用了大量叶酸，你就需要叶酸来制造新的 DNA，所以他们喜欢叶酸。
So it's like-
所以这就像是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's an abnormal growth.
这是一种不正常的生长。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It's a-
这是一个——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So anything that's associated with growth.
所以任何与成长相关的事情。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah, it's proliferating.
是的，它正在激增。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
MTOR.
MTOR。
I saw the recent study on taurine, which scared a lot of people-
我看到最近关于牛磺酸的研究，吓到了很多人——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because taurine's in a lot of energy drinks-
因为很多能量饮料中都含有牛磺酸-
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but that was an in vitro study.
但这是一项体外研究。
Yes, I was going to ask, is there increased cancer risk if you're supplementing with glutamine because cancer cells love glutamine?
是的，我想问，如果你补充谷氨酰胺，是否会增加患癌症的风险，因为癌细胞喜欢谷氨酰胺？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Okay.
好的。
So my personal opinion, I'm obviously not a medical physician.
所以我个人的观点，我显然不是一名医生。
This is not a prescription, it's just my opinion.
这不是处方，这只是我的意见。
I personally am not scared of getting cancer from taking glutamine.
我个人并不害怕因服用谷氨酰胺而患癌症。
If I had a tumor in my colon, the first site that the glutamine is seeing, maybe the liver as well, since that's also the next step.
如果我的结肠中有肿瘤，谷氨酰胺检测到的第一个部位，也许还有肝脏，因为这也是下一步。
But barring having a tumor already in my liver or in my colon-
但除非我的肝脏或结肠中已经有肿瘤——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
those would be the only types of situations that I would be worried about taking glutamine.
这些是我担心服用谷氨酰胺的唯一情况。
I don't think it's going to cause cancer.
我不认为它会导致癌症。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Now, I guess the question is, what if you don't know you have it?
现在，我想问题是，如果您不知道自己拥有它怎么办？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, hopefully the cost will come down on whole body MRIs.
好吧，希望全身核磁共振的成本会下降。
Actually, the cost is coming down on whole body MRIs.
事实上，全身核磁共振成像的成本正在下降。
Hopefully, more people are able to get those.
希望更多的人能够获得这些。
It's not just such a high-end, exclusive thing in the near future.
在不久的将来，这不仅仅是一种高端、独特的东西。
Kind of like blood draws.
有点像抽血。
Used to be panels of blood testing, you only got them if you really needed them.
过去是血液检测小组，只有当您确实需要时才进行检测。
Now, the cost of blood draws is really low.
现在抽血的费用真的很低。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So hopefully-
所以希望——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
people will be more aware.
人们将会更加意识到。
Yeah, I will take a tablespoon of glutamine once or twice or three times a day if I'm feeling run down.
是的，如果我感到精疲力竭，我会每天服用一汤匙谷氨酰胺一次或两次或三次。
You mentioned being exposed to pathogens from vectors of different sorts.
您提到暴露于不同种类载体的病原体。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Before we went on mic, we were talking about NAC, N-acetylcysteine.
在我们开始麦克风之前，我们谈论的是 NAC，N-乙酰半胱氨酸。
I take it once a day Consistently, but I'll take it three times a day if I'm traveling a lot because I'm around sick people when I travel, especially in winter, or if I feel like I'm getting run down.
我坚持每天服用一次，但如果我经常旅行，我会每天服用三次，因为旅行时我周围都是病人，尤其是在冬天，或者如果我感觉自己很疲惫。
And there, the data are pretty interesting.
那里的数据非常有趣。
There's at least one study showing that it reduced flu transmission, where people were deliberately exposed to flu.
至少一项研究表明，它可以减少流感传播，因为人们故意接触流感。
I think it took the number of people that contracted flu compared to the placebo group somewhere from the high 70% area, I don't remember the exact number now, we'll put a link to the study, down to maybe high 20s.
我认为与安慰剂组相比，感染流感的人数从 70% 的高位区域开始，我现在不记得确切的数字了，我们将提供该研究的链接，可能低至 20 多岁。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is pretty impressive.
这令人印象深刻。
And an ER doc came on this podcast, Roger Seheult, and said he was a big proponent of N-acetylcysteine for people that are around sick people.
一位急诊室医生 Roger Seheult 出现在这个播客中，并表示他非常支持为病人周围的人提供 N-乙酰半胱氨酸。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you take NAC?
你服用 NAC 吗？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So my only concern with taking it on a daily basis is it is a pretty powerful antioxidant.
所以我每天服用它唯一担心的是它是一种非常强大的抗氧化剂。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And I think that we need to understand antioxidants and the opposite, which would be generating oxidation, right?
我认为我们需要了解抗氧化剂和相反的东西，这会产生氧化，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It's not like oxidation is bad.
氧化并不是坏事。
It's bad when it's constant slow drip oxidation-
当它持续缓慢滴氧化时就很糟糕了-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
that's damaging other parts of our body, DNA, proteins, lipids.
这会损害我们身体的其他部分：DNA、蛋白质、脂质。
Some oxidation you want, like if you're exercising, right?
你想要一些氧化，比如你在锻炼，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
There's a burst of oxidation.
有一阵氧化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
To get the adaptations.
以获得适应。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
To get the adaptations.
以获得适应。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And so my concern would be, for one, maybe timing it around your exercise-
所以我担心的是，一方面，也许围绕你的锻炼安排时间——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
so not taking it close to when you're exercising.
所以不要在锻炼的时候服用。
And these studies come out of studies that have been done with high dose vitamin E plus vitamin C.
这些研究来自于使用高剂量维生素 E 加维生素 C 进行的研究。
I haven't seen a lot of vitamin C studies alone that are blunting exercise adaptations.
我还没有看到很多单独的维生素 C 研究会削弱运动适应能力。
There's maybe one at a high dose.
可能有一个剂量很高。
Most of the time it's vitamin C and vitamin E.
大多数时候是维生素C和维生素E。
Vitamin E, alpha-tocopherol.
维生素E、α-生育酚。
When I say high dose, usually it's 400 IUs.
当我说高剂量时，通常是 400 IU。
Just to give you a reference point, the RDA is like 24 IUs or something.
仅供参考，RDA 大约是 24 个 IU 之类的。
So we're talking high dose.
所以我们谈论的是高剂量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But a supplement can be 200 to 800, so it wouldn't be hard to blunt that exercise effect accidentally.
但补充剂可以是 200 到 800，所以不小心削弱锻炼效果并不难。
Yeah, I don't take vitamin E.
是的，我不吃维生素E。
It spiked my prostate-specific antigen, which I was told is a known effect among urologists.
它刺激了我的前列腺特异性抗原，我被告知这是泌尿科医生中已知的效果。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
The SELECT trial was done.
SELECT 试验已完成。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So the SELECT trial was looking at selenium and vitamin E and if it could slow the progression of prostate cancer, and it turned out that the opposite was found, and it was really kind of due to this high dose of alpha-tocopherol, which also has other effects of lowering another type of vitamin E in the body called gamma-tocopherol, which is anti-inflammatory.
因此，SELECT 试验正在研究硒和维生素 E 是否可以减缓前列腺癌的进展，结果发现了相反的结果，这确实是由于高剂量的 α-生育酚，它还具有降低体内另一种维生素 E 的其他作用，称为 γ-生育酚，它具有抗炎作用。
And I think that has something to do with inflammation actually can increase the PSA, right?
我认为这与炎症有关，实际上可以增加 PSA，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So anyways, the point here is that with NAC, my only concern would be blunting the oxidation that you're getting from beneficial-- Because I know you're highly active.
所以无论如何，这里的重点是，对于 NAC，我唯一关心的是削弱你从有益物质中获得的氧化——因为我知道你非常活跃。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm training hard.
我正在努力训练。
I don't want my training to be short-circuited from NAC.
我不希望我的训练因 NAC 而中断。
I'm perfectly happy to only take NAC if I'm feeling run down or exposed to illnesses around me, or I feel like maybe I'm coming down with something.
我非常乐意只在我感到精疲力尽或周围有疾病的时候才服用 NAC，或者我觉得我可能得了什么病。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So that's when I take it, but it's mostly because of...
所以我当时就接受了，但这主要是因为......
I wasn't familiar with the influenza data.
我不熟悉流感数据。
That's interesting.
那很有意思。
It's good for lung health, too.
这对肺部健康也有好处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So although if smokers take it, I think it has the opposite effect where, again, it's like the pre-cancerous cells are using it to their benefit.
因此，尽管如果吸烟者服用它，我认为它会产生相反的效果，就像癌前细胞正在利用它来谋取利益一样。
We used to think antioxidants, "Oh, it's so good.
我们曾经认为抗氧化剂，“哦，它太好了。
Just more, more, more."
只是更多，更多，更多。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And it turns out it's not the case, right?
但事实证明并非如此，对吗？
And that's why a lot of these other types of hormetic stressors or plant phytochemicals, they're actually generating an antioxidant response endogenously in our body by activating these antioxidant pathways, which are so much more powerful than what you would get from an antioxidant, right?
这就是为什么许多其他类型的激物应激或植物化学物质，它们实际上通过激活这些抗氧化途径在我们体内产生内源性抗氧化反应，这比您从抗氧化剂中获得的作用要强大得多，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And it's not like you don't want some antioxidants.
这并不是说你不需要一些抗氧化剂。
It's just like you don't want to overdose on taking too much NAC and too much vitamin C and too much vitamin E, because there's also something called reductive stress.
这就像你不想过量服用过多的 NAC、过多的维生素 C 和过多的维生素 E，因为还有一种叫做还原压力的东西。
So we know about oxidative stress.
所以我们了解氧化应激。
Oxidative stress is when, again, you're causing these reactive oxygen species to damage things like your DNA, for example, and over time, eventually that happens in a part of the gene that can be oncogenic and lead to cancer.
氧化应激是指，当您导致这些活性氧物质损坏您的 DNA 等物质时，随着时间的推移，最终会在可能致癌并导致癌症的基因部分中发生这种情况。
Well, reductive stress is the opposite of that.
嗯，减少压力与此相反。
So it's like too much of the reducing equivalents, like the NADH, the NADPH.
所以这就像太多的还原当量，如 NADH、NADPH。
And it also has negative effects.
而且它也有负面影响。
So you kind of don't want to go too far on either ends of the spectrum.
所以你不想在光谱的两端走得太远。
But also you want to, instead of having this slow leaking effect of these pro-oxidants that are happening from eating a bad diet, from inflammation, things like that, you want it to be a short burst where you switch it on, you have the adaptation, and it's off, right?
但你也想，不要让这些促氧化剂因不良饮食、炎症等原因而缓慢泄漏，你希望它是短暂的爆发，你打开它，你适应了，然后它就关闭了，对吗？
And the adaptation happens in the recovery period, right?
适应发生在恢复期，对吗？
For example, if you exercise, that's a big burst of reactive oxygen species.
例如，如果你运动，就会产生大量活性氧。
That is beneficial.
这是有益的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And you want it, right?
你想要它，对吗？
And you don't want to blunt those adaptations.
而且你不想削弱这些适应能力。
And so that's kind of my concern with daily dosing of NAC.
这就是我对 NAC 每日剂量的担忧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
I don't cold plunge in the six to eight hours after resistance training for exactly the reason you're talking about.
出于你所说的原因，我不会在阻力训练后的六到八小时内进行冷跳。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I want the inflammation.
我想要消炎。
I want the increased blood flow.
我想要增加血流量。
I don't want to short-circuit that.
我不想让它短路。
I'm perfectly happy to only take NAC under conditions where I'm a bit run down, and that's also when I'll take glutamine.
我很高兴只在我有点疲惫的情况下服用 NAC，这也是我服用谷氨酰胺的时候。
If you take out glutamine regularly, I personally observe that I get stronger at a steady state of starch intake, and I don't like dropping starches too low because I get weak.
如果你定期摄入谷氨酰胺，我个人观察到，在淀粉摄入量稳定的情况下，我会变得更强壮，而且我不喜欢淀粉摄入量太低，因为我会变得虚弱。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I also can't sleep as well if my starches are too low.
如果我的淀粉含量太低，我也无法入睡。
I just am too wired.
我只是太有线了。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
There was a new study on eating starches improving sleep.
有一项关于吃淀粉改善睡眠的新研究。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, and I'm so grateful for that-
是的，我对此非常感激——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Which made me happy
这让我很高兴
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because for several years I talked about that on the podcast and people said, "Oh, he's gorging himself with pasta and then passing out, and that's the worst time." I wasn't saying that.
因为多年来我在播客上谈论这件事，人们说，“哦，他狼吞虎咽地吃着意大利面，然后就昏倒了，那是最糟糕的时候。”我不是这么说的。
I'm saying that if you're running like crazy, I'll hear from marathoners and ultra people, and people are doing a million things.
我是说，如果你疯狂地跑步，我会听到马拉松运动员和超级运动员的声音，人们正在做一百万件事。
They'll say, "I'm not sleeping well." And they're exercising like crazy.
他们会说：“我睡得不好。”他们疯狂地锻炼。
It's like, "Well, when was the last time you had a bowl of pasta?" They're like, "Oh, no, I don't eat pasta." And they're like...
就像，“那么，你最后一次吃一碗意大利面是什么时候？”他们就像，“哦，不，我不吃意大利面。”他们就像...
And then they'll have some rice or some pasta, they're like, "Oh, I slept like a baby." And they were having it at lunch.
然后他们会吃一些米饭或一些面食，他们会说，“哦，我睡得像个婴儿。”他们在午餐时吃它。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I just think that the brain doesn't shut down well when you have high levels of cortisol.
我只是认为当你的皮质醇水平很高时，大脑就不能很好地关闭。
And the cortisol starch thing is an interesting one.
皮质醇淀粉的事情很有趣。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I'm so glad you brought this up because I think This is something that I did want to talk about really, and it has to do with stop eating three hours before bed for that very reason.
我很高兴你提出这个问题，因为我认为这是我确实想谈论的事情，而且正是因为这个原因，它与睡前三小时停止进食有关。
So there was even a new study, but there's been several studies now really showing that this is important for that cardiovascular reset.
所以甚至有一项新的研究，但现在有几项研究确实表明这对于心血管重置很重要。
Right?
正确的？
Your parasympathetic activity is supposed to go higher.
你的副交感神经活动应该会更高。
You're in your rest and recovery phase, right?
您正处于休息和恢复阶段，对吗？
When you're eating food, that's the sympathetic activity, right?
当你吃东西的时候，这就是交感神经活动，对吗？
That's activating the sympathetic nervous system.
这就是激活交感神经系统。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As you're eating, yeah.
当你吃东西的时候，是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And even as you're digesting.
即使你正在消化。
So you have to think about it, you digest in, what?
所以你必须想一想，你消化一下，什么？
It takes five or so hours to fully finish about-
大约需要五个小时左右才能完全完成——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, depending on the meal.
是的，要看饭量。
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
depending on the meal.
取决于膳食。
Right.
正确的。
So if you're eating right before you go to bed, you are not in that parasympathetic activity part of the cycle that you want to be in.
因此，如果您在睡觉前吃东西，那么您就没有处于您想要的副交感神经活动周期中。
So, there was even a new study that I shared, I don't know, a couple of days ago even, showing that if you stop eating three hours before bed-- So these people were actually...
所以，甚至几天前我分享了一项新的研究，我不知道，它表明如果你在睡前三个小时停止进食——那么这些人实际上是……
It's interesting.
这很有趣。
They had their blood pressure measured for starting in the mid-afternoon all the way throughout the night.
他们从下午三点左右开始测量血压，一直测量到整个晚上。
This is the first study that really not just one endpoint looking at blood pressure, but just measuring it continuously.
这是第一项真正不只关注血压的终点，而是连续测量血压的研究。
I don't know if it was every 15 minutes or something like that, but it was found that during sleep, if they had stopped eating three hours before bed versus the group that did not stop eating three hours before bed, their blood pressure dipped lower.
我不知道是否每 15 分钟一次或类似的时间，但研究发现，在睡眠期间，如果他们在睡前 3 小时停止进食，与睡前 3 小时未停止进食的组相比，他们的血压会下降。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So you get that baroreflex dipping, right?
所以你会感受到压力感受反射的下降，对吗？
So this is part of the parasympathetic activation, as you know, very important for the blood pressure to go down.
正如您所知，这是副交感神经激活的一部分，对于降低血压非常重要。
Heart rate went down much lower, and that reset is so important for cardiovascular health.
心率下降得更低，这种重置对于心血管健康非常重要。
I think what was found was it was something translated to 20% lower risk of cardiovascular events, like heart attacks.
我认为我们发现，这可以将心脏病等心血管事件的风险降低 20%。
So it's really pretty significant.
所以这确实非常重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's impressive.
这令人印象深刻。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And it really is an easy thing to do to think about stopping eating three hours before you go to bed.
在睡觉前三小时考虑停止进食确实是一件很容易的事情。
That's something I think that is not that hard to implement.
我认为这并不难实施。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And it will improve your sleep as well as your cardiovascular health.
它将改善您的睡眠以及心血管健康。
Although I think in that study, I don't know that sleep was really...
虽然我认为在那项研究中，我不知道睡眠真的......
It was subjective, and I don't think it really was improved more.
这是主观的，我认为它并没有真正得到更多的改进。
But other studies have found that as well.
但其他研究也发现了这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
That sleep does improve.
睡眠确实有所改善。
I know Satchin Panda, he's been on my podcast, your podcast, he's had studies showing that it seemed like-
我认识 Satchin Panda，他一直在我的播客上，你的播客上，他的研究表明，这似乎是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
stop eating three hours before bed really does seem to improve sleep.
睡前三小时停止进食似乎确实可以改善睡眠。
But this parasympathetic activation, you don't want to have a meal right before you bed because you want to be in the rest and recovery part, right?
但是这种副交感神经激活，你不想在睡觉前吃饭，因为你想要休息和恢复，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So.
所以。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I think people hear, and I understand why the nomenclature and the buzzwords of fight or flight for sympathetic and rest and digest for parasympathetic, but-
是的，我认为人们听到了，并且我理解为什么交感神经的术语和流行语是战斗或逃跑，副交感神经的休息和消化，但是-
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
yeah, the evidence shows eating stimulates the sympathetic nervous system.
是的，有证据表明饮食会刺激交感神经系统。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It digests.
它会消化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not a stress event, but it requires energy.
这不是压力事件，但需要能量。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It's a-
这是一个——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Anything that requires energy raises body temperature, and your body's doing work, and you-
任何需要能量的事物都会升高体温，你的身体正在做功，而你——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It's an awake event, right?
这是一个清醒的事件，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
An awake event.
一个清醒的事件。
Right.
正确的。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It's an awake...
这是一个清醒的...
You don't eat-
你不吃——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a great way to put it
这是一个很好的表达方式
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
while you're sleeping.
当你睡觉的时候。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, and that's why these phrases, while I don't demonize anyone for creating the fight or flight, well, there's ways that you want your sympathetic nervous system activated that are not about fight or flight.
是的，这就是为什么这些短语，虽然我不会妖魔化任何制造战斗或逃跑的人，但是，有一些方法可以让你的交感神经系统被激活，而这些方式与战斗或逃跑无关。
I actually think if people just got the first hour of their day more active and energized, bright light-
我实际上认为，如果人们在一天的第一个小时变得更加活跃、充满活力、明亮的光线——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
exercise, caffeine if you're me, and Lord knows I'm grateful that caffeine exists, in the first hour of the day or first hours if you can't manage that because of schedule, and then the last hour of the day was strongly parasympathetic, everything would get better without having to think a ton about exactly how you're doing that, because on a given day, you just do what you can.
运动，咖啡因，如果你是我，上帝知道我很感激咖啡因的存在，在一天的第一个小时或第一个小时，如果你因为日程安排而无法做到这一点，然后一天的最后一个小时有强烈的副交感神经，一切都会变得更好，而不必考虑太多你到底是如何做到的，因为在某一天，你只是做你能做的。
Right.
正确的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And that's what you want, right?
这就是你想要的，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So cortisol is circadian dependent-
所以皮质醇依赖于昼夜节律-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
as you know.
如你所知。
In the early hours of the morning, that's when you want it to peak, right?
在清晨，你希望它达到顶峰，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
The part of the awakening response.
觉醒反应的部分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
You want it to go up.
你想让它上涨。
And it's interesting, the reason I'm going on this is because it's a little bit of a soapbox for me.
有趣的是，我之所以要这样做是因为这对我来说有点像肥皂剧。
But so with the cortisol activation, people don't realize this.
但随着皮质醇的激活，人们并没有意识到这一点。
Obviously, it's a hormone, and it's binding to two different receptors.
显然，它是一种激素，并且与两种不同的受体结合。
There's the glucocorticoid receptor, and then there's the mineralocorticoid receptor, and both of those, when cortisol binds to it, they go into the nucleus of the cell, and they're changing the expression.
有糖皮质激素受体，然后有盐皮质激素受体，当皮质醇与其结合时，这两种受体都会进入细胞核，并改变表达。
So they're activating genes and deactivating genes, 20% of the human genome.
所以他们正在激活基因和失活基因，占人类基因组的 20%。
It's a large percentage, right?
这个比例很大吧？
And this is on multiple different organs.
这是在多个不同的器官上。
So cortisol has a very important role, and you want that peak, you want that spike, right?
所以皮质醇起着非常重要的作用，你想要那个峰值，你想要那个峰值，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
That's what you want, and then you want it to shut off.
这就是您想要的，然后您希望它关闭。
And there are things that can activate it, obviously, like in the morning, going out, bright light exposure, as you mentioned.
显然，有些事情可以激活它，比如早上、外出、暴露在强光下，正如你提到的。
That's very important for that cortisol awakening response.
这对于皮质醇觉醒反应非常重要。
But you can also...
但你也可以...
Intense exercise can switch it on.
剧烈运动可以开启它。
But what's interesting, and so can intermittent fasting, that it was interesting because there's studies from Mark Mattson's lab showing that the types of stressors that are beneficial, these hormetic stressors like exercise, like intermittent fasting, perhaps even cold exposure, these types of exposures change the receptor density of the receptors.
但有趣的是，间歇性禁食也很有趣，因为马克·马特森实验室的研究表明，有益的压力源类型，这些刺激性压力源如运动、间歇性禁食，甚至可能是冷暴露，这些类型的暴露会改变受体的受体密度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So if you look at what activates cortisol in a negative way, chronic stress, let's say emotional, financial, psychological, chronic sleep deprivation, that bad type of stress.
因此，如果你看看是什么以消极的方式激活皮质醇，那就是慢性压力，比如情绪、经济、心理、长期睡眠不足，这些都是不好的压力。
You're not getting a big spike, you're getting a slow drip of it.
你不会得到一个大的尖峰，你会得到一个缓慢的滴落。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And so what happens is when you have that type of stress, you're increasing the glucocorticoid receptors, and you're decreasing the mineralocorticoid receptors.
因此，当你承受这种类型的压力时，会发生的情况是，你会增加糖皮质激素受体，并减少盐皮质激素受体。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
There's a different biological response in the brain, in the hypothalamus, but also in other organs as well when you're activating cortisol through a beneficial type of stress, the hormetic stressors, like intermittent fasting, like exercise.
当你通过有益的压力（毒物兴奋剂压力源，如间歇性禁食或运动）激活皮质醇时，大脑、下丘脑以及其他器官都会产生不同的生物反应。
I believe probably deliberate cold exposure as well, where it's a different biological response.
我相信也可能是故意的寒冷暴露，这是一种不同的生物反应。
And also, if you think about it, you actually want cortisol to do its function.
而且，如果你仔细想想，你实际上希望皮质醇发挥其作用。
You want it to change the expression of genes.
你希望它改变基因的表达。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
That's what it's supposed to do, right?
这就是它应该做的，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
The problem is when you have that slow drip, then not only are they changing the receptor activation, but also they become resistant to the cortisol, and so you're not getting the benefits.
问题是，当您进行缓慢的滴注时，它们不仅会改变受体的激活，而且还会对皮质醇产生抵抗力，因此您无法获得好处。
Cortisol Represses inflammation, right?
皮质醇可以抑制炎症，对吗？
It suppresses the immune system.
它会抑制免疫系统。
So you're not getting that anti-inflammatory effect from cortisol.
所以你无法从皮质醇中获得抗炎作用。
It's being dysregulated, and that's what you don't want.
它正在失调，这就是你不想要的。
You don't want cortisol to be dysregulated in terms of the genes that it's supposed to activate or deactivate.
您不希望皮质醇在其应该激活或失活的基因方面失调。
You want it to be doing what it's supposed to.
你希望它做它应该做的事情。
It's supposed to regulate.
应该是监管吧
We're supposed to have the cortisol activation response.
我们应该有皮质醇激活反应。
So, anyways, that's something that I kind of want to clear in people's minds because I feel like a lot of people get worried about, "Oh my gosh, I'm doing HIIT, and it's activating my cortisol." Well, that's fine.
所以，无论如何，这是我想在人们的头脑中澄清的事情，因为我觉得很多人都会担心，“天哪，我正在做 HIIT，它正在激活我的皮质醇。”嗯，没关系。
I guess if you do too much HIIT, you could always take something-
我想如果你做太多 HIIT，你总是可以做点什么——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure
当然可以
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
to the extreme.
到了极点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Okay, with that caveat, obviously, I'm not talking about that.
好吧，有了这个警告，显然我不是在谈论这个。
But with that caveat, you want your body to be able to turn it on and then turn it off and have the adaptation, have the response, right?
但有了这个警告，你希望你的身体能够打开它然后关闭它并进行适应，做出反应，对吧？
And like I said, it's a different biological response than the chronic type of cortisol activation that you get with the bad types of stress.
就像我说的，这是一种与不良压力引起的慢性皮质醇激活不同的生物反应。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I guess same goes for intermittent fasting.
是的，我想间歇性禁食也是如此。
And maybe you could share with us what your intermittent fasting protocol is.
也许您可以与我们分享您的间歇性禁食方案是什么。
I know that recently, cortisol has been increasingly demonized as this stress hormone, and people saw pictures of people with Cushing's disease, which is a drastically elevated cortisol, and the moon face and the excessive visceral fat.
我知道最近，皮质醇越来越被妖魔化为这种压力荷尔蒙，人们看到库欣病患者的照片，这是一种皮质醇急剧升高的疾病，还有月亮脸和过多的内脏脂肪。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And this sort of fear-mongering around cortisol was particularly directed toward women, and this entered the health fitness space because I think in an appropriate way, I'll just be very direct here, I no longer tap dance around who said...
这种围绕皮质醇散布恐惧的行为特别针对女性，这进入了健康健身领域，因为我认为以一种适当的方式，我在这里会非常直接，我不再围绕着谁说......
In a very appropriate way that I appreciate, Dr. Stacy Sims came on the podcast and she said, "Listen, some women shouldn't train fasted because they don't feel well when they train fasted, and their cortisol is too high," and so forth.
史黛西·西姆斯博士以一种非常恰当的方式出现在播客上，她说：“听着，有些女性不应该禁食训练，因为她们在禁食训练时感觉不舒服，而且皮质醇太高，”等等。
That captured a lot of people's experience.
这抓住了很多人的经验。
A lot of women in particular, but some men certainly, were like, "Yes.
尤其是很多女性，当然也有一些男性，会说：“是的。
Oh my God, thank you.
天哪，谢谢你。
Thank you, thank you, thank you." But then the message got contorted, right?
谢谢你，谢谢你，谢谢你。”但后来信息被扭曲了，对吗？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As it does.
正如它所做的那样。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then it became, women shouldn't train fasted.
然后就变成了，女性不应该禁食训练。
And then we had Lauren Clemasso Semple on this podcast, who's trained as a PhD.
然后，劳伦·克莱马索·森普尔 (Lauren Clemasso Semple) 加入了这个播客，她接受过博士学位培训。
She has a background in nutrition, physiology, strength training coach, et cetera.
她拥有营养学、生理学、力量训练教练等方面的背景。
And she said, "No, listen, you can train fasted or not fasted as a woman or a man.
她说：“不，听着，你可以像女人或男人一样禁食或不禁食地训练。
It's kind of your preference, but that we don't need to fear these cortisol spikes." And forgive me for going long here, but I think it is important that people hear this again, which is there's also this idea that deliberate cold exposure increases cortisol, but when you look at the data, it definitely increases adrenaline-
这是你的偏好，但我们不需要担心这些皮质醇峰值。”请原谅我在这里说得太长，但我认为让人们再次听到这一点很重要，还有一种观点认为，故意暴露在寒冷中会增加皮质醇，但当你查看数据时，它肯定会增加肾上腺素——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and peripheral dopamine and probably, I'll go on record here, probably central dopamine, although we don't have as good evidence for that yet.
和外周多巴胺，也许，我会在这里记录下来，可能是中枢多巴胺，尽管我们还没有足够的证据证明这一点。
But the evidence points to the fact that deliberate cold exposure lowers cortisol.
但有证据表明，有意的寒冷暴露会降低皮质醇。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And again, I think Stacy appropriately said a lot of women who want to use cold shouldn't go as cold, but the message got contorted, and it became women shouldn't do deliberate cold exposure because of the cortisol increase.
再说一次，我认为史黛西恰当地说过，很多想要使用冷饮的女性不应该那么冷，但这个信息被扭曲了，因为皮质醇增加，女性不应该故意冷暴露。
And so part of the reason I'm going long here is I'm trying to correct the narrative on her behalf.
所以我在这里写得很长的部分原因是我试图代表她纠正这个叙述。
She said, "Do what works for you," right?
她说：“做对你有用的事情，”对吗？
And that's what Lauren's saying, and I'm guessing that's what you'll say as well.
这就是劳伦所说的，我猜你也会这么说。
But I just need to get that out there because the message has gotten totally pretzel twisted up, and cortisol is neither good nor bad.
但我只是需要把它说出来，因为这个信息已经完全扭曲了，皮质醇既不好也不坏。
You want it high in the morning, you want it low at night-
早上你想要高，晚上你想要低-
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in general.
一般来说。
It sounds like you train fasted?
听起来你训练是空腹的吗？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I listen to how I feel.
我听听我的感受。
That's exactly what I do.
这正是我所做的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So what your podcast guest and-
那么你的播客嘉宾和-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
the researchers are talking about is exactly, there are times when I wake up in the morning and I'm like, "I need to eat something before I work out."
研究人员所说的正是，有时我早上醒来时会想，“我需要在锻炼前吃点东西。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And I do.
我确实这么做了。
But I oftentimes do train fasted, for one, because I am practicing intermittent fasting again.
但一方面，我经常进行禁食训练，因为我再次练习间歇性禁食。
But I'm not starving myself, and like I said, there's multiple reasons I do it.
但我并没有让自己挨饿，就像我说的，我这样做有多种原因。
One reason is because it really did help me lose the belly fat, which is the visceral fat, which is the worst kind of fat you can have, and we can talk more about that.
原因之一是它确实帮助我减掉了腹部脂肪，即内脏脂肪，这是最糟糕的脂肪，我们可以更多地讨论这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But the second reason is I love the cognitive benefits I have in the morning with it.
但第二个原因是我喜欢它在早上带来的认知益处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And it's the main reason I do it.
这是我这样做的主要原因。
And so there are many times when I do train fasted, but I am not out running 15 miles.
所以很多时候我会空腹训练，但我不会跑 15 英里。
Most of my, like I said, my sessions are about an hour long.
正如我所说，我的大部分课程大约持续一个小时。
And am I taking a little bit of a performance hit with the high intensity?
高强度的训练是否会对我的表现造成一点影响？
Probably.
大概。
Probably, yes.
可能是的。
But it's not much to matter for me.
但这对我来说并不重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And you do burn a little bit more fat if you train fasted.
如果你禁食训练，你确实会燃烧更多的脂肪。
That's known.
这是已知的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
If it is a longer session, you will take a performance enhancement hit.
如果会话时间较长，您的性能将会受到影响。
That is also known, right?
这也是众所周知的吧？
So I think it really does come down to what is your goal?
所以我认为这确实取决于你的目标是什么？
How do you feel?
你感觉如何？
And then you kind of go with that.
然后你就同意了。
And I completely agree.
我完全同意。
There are times when I'm on my cycle, and I feel fine, and I'm working out just fine.
有时候，当我在周期中时，我感觉很好，而且我锻炼得很好。
And there are other times when I'm like, "Oh, I don't feel good.
还有其他时候我会想，“哦，我感觉不太好。
I'm going to take it easier." But I still train, you listen to your body, and that's a pretty easy-
我会轻松一点。”但我仍然训练，你听从你的身体，这很简单-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
I think, rule of thumb.
我认为，经验法则。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Sometimes people like to complicate things.
有时人们喜欢把事情复杂化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
There's lots of reasons why.
原因有很多。
We don't need to get into that.
我们不需要深究这个问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I have theories.
我有理论。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But-
但是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I have theories, but they're not important right now.
是的，我有一些理论，但它们现在并不重要。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
No, it's not important.
不，这不重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So yeah, I do train fasted, and for me, it has helped me tremendously change my body composition.
所以，是的，我确实禁食训练，对我来说，它帮助我极大地改变了我的身体成分。
Like I said, I'm in a different part of my life than perhaps a 30-year-old woman is, right?
就像我说的，我的生活与 30 岁的女性可能处于不同的阶段，对吧？
So when I was 30, I didn't have to train fasted.
所以当我30岁的时候，我不需要禁食训练。
It was easy to keep the belly fat, the visceral fat lower.
保持腹部脂肪和内脏脂肪较低很容易。
Hormonal changes do play a role in the way your body...
荷尔蒙的变化确实会影响你的身体......
So estrogen plays a role in telling your body how to store fat.
因此，雌激素在告诉你的身体如何储存脂肪方面发挥着作用。
So subcutaneous fat would be the kind of fat that you can just pinch, right?
那么皮下脂肪就是那种捏起来就可以的脂肪吧？
The fat that we see.
我们看到的脂肪。
The visceral fat, that's that deep fat that's lining your organs.
内脏脂肪，即器官内层的深层脂肪。
It's often belly fat, and it's lining the intestines, the liver.
它通常是腹部脂肪，它位于肠道和肝脏的内壁。
It's almost like an endocrine organ because it is secreting hormones.
它几乎就像一个内分泌器官，因为它分泌激素。
It's secreting inflammatory factors.
它正在分泌炎症因子。
It's metabolically active.
它的新陈代谢活跃。
It's constantly breaking down triglycerides.
它不断分解甘油三酯。
It's associated with double the risk of early death.
它与双倍的早逝风险有关。
People that have high visceral fat have 44% higher chance of having cancer.
内脏脂肪高的人患癌症的几率高出 44%。
Many different types of cancers.
许多不同类型的癌症。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It's huge.
它是巨大的。
And of course, insulin resistance is the number one problem with visceral fat, right?
当然，胰岛素抵抗是内脏脂肪的首要问题，对吧？
And I'd love to talk about that, but if you want, we can- Please, yeah ...
我很想谈谈这个，但如果你愿意，我们可以-拜托，是的......
get into that.
进入那个。
Yeah.
是的。
So with the visceral fat, and like I said, visceral fat is something, if you really directly want to measure it, you do a DEXA scan.
因此，对于内脏脂肪，就像我说的，内脏脂肪是一种东西，如果你真的想直接测量它，你可以进行 DEXA 扫描。
But for the average person that isn't going to go out and do a DEXA scan, waist circumference is a proxy.
但对于不会出去进行 DEXA 扫描的普通人来说，腰围只是一个指标。
It's used in a lot of studies.
它被用于很多研究中。
So women that have a waist circumference of 35 inches or above are considered to have a higher amount of visceral fat.
因此，腰围为35英寸或以上的女性被认为内脏脂肪含量较高。
Men that have a waist circumference of 40 inches or above are considered to have a higher amount of visceral fat.
腰围为 40 英寸或以上的男性被认为内脏脂肪含量较高。
It's also that belly fat.
这也是腹部脂肪的原因。
You just know, right?
你只是知道，对吧？
Interestingly, 70% of women over the age of 50 have high visceral fat, 50% of men over the age of 50 do.
有趣的是，70%的50岁以上女性内脏脂肪含量较高，50%以上的男性内脏脂肪含量较高。
Again, coming down to women go through menopause.
再说一遍，女性会经历更年期。
Estrogen plays an important role in telling the body to store the fat subcutaneously rather than viscerally deep around organs.
雌激素在告诉身体将脂肪储存在皮下而不是器官周围的内脏深处方面发挥着重要作用。
And so as women transition to perimenopause, the years before menopause, and menopause, their estrogen goes down, and that does change the way the body stores fat.
因此，当女性过渡到围绝经期、绝经前几年和更年期时，她们的雌激素会下降，这确实会改变身体储存脂肪的方式。
And any woman that's going through either of those stages knows it.
任何经历过这两个阶段的女性都知道这一点。
And it's also why you see often women over the age of 50 with more belly fat.
这也是为什么您经常会看到 50 岁以上的女性腹部脂肪较多。
Right?
正确的？
That's something that I think it's hard to deny.
我认为这是很难否认的。
But it's one of the reasons why I went back to practicing intermittent fasting because there's a couple of ways that you can really powerfully lose visceral fat, and one of them is doing aerobic exercise, high intensity interval training also really powerfully can do it, but also being in a caloric deficit.
但这是我重新练习间歇性禁食的原因之一，因为有几种方法可以真正有效地减少内脏脂肪，其中之一就是有氧运动，高强度间歇训练也可以有效做到这一点，但也会出现热量不足。
And I think when you start to get the combination of both, that's what really worked for me.
我认为当你开始将两者结合起来时，这才是真正对我有用的。
It's crazy how quickly you can gain it based on your diet as well.
根据你的饮食，你能以如此快的速度获得它，这真是太疯狂了。
So it is different from the subcutaneous fat in many ways.
所以它在很多方面与皮下脂肪不同。
I've mentioned it's secreting these inflammatory molecules, its hormones, but it's also constantly breaking down triglycerides into free fatty acids.
我已经提到过它会分泌这些炎症分子、激素，但它也会不断地将甘油三酯分解成游离脂肪酸。
And the location of it is very dangerous because it's right surrounding the liver, right?
而且它的位置非常危险，因为它就在肝脏周围，对吗？
It's this deep organ fat.
就是这种深层器官脂肪。
And that's very close to the portal vein.
而且非常靠近门静脉。
And so you're constantly getting this sort of mainlining free fatty acids to the liver.
所以你不断地将这种游离脂肪酸输送到肝脏。
And visceral fat is very different from subcutaneous fat because it doesn't respond to insulin like subcutaneous fat does.
内脏脂肪与皮下脂肪有很大不同，因为它不像皮下脂肪那样对胰岛素做出反应。
In other words, when you have a meal, you eat a carbohydrate meal, and basically your body increases insulin to help take it up glucose into your liver, muscle, adipose tissue.
换句话说，当你吃饭时，你吃的是碳水化合物餐，基本上你的身体会增加胰岛素，帮助将葡萄糖吸收到你的肝脏、肌肉和脂肪组织中。
Lipolysis shuts down.
脂肪分解停止。
It's like, "Okay.
就像是，“好吧。
No longer am I going to break down these fats.
我不再分解这些脂肪。
It's time to use this energy." Right?
是时候利用这种能量了。”正确的？
Visceral fat doesn't respond to insulin, so it just keeps going.
内脏脂肪对胰岛素没有反应，所以它会继续存在。
Right?
正确的？
And these free fatty acids, because they're going right to the liver, it's essentially antagonizing the insulin receptors.
这些游离脂肪酸，因为它们直接进入肝脏，所以本质上是拮抗胰岛素受体。
So it causes insulin receptors to become more resistant to insulin.
因此它会导致胰岛素受体对胰岛素产生更强的抵抗力。
And this is part of why people with high visceral fat...
这就是为什么内脏脂肪高的人......
By the way, you can gain visceral fat without gaining a pound.
顺便说一句，你可以在不增加一磅的情况下增加内脏脂肪。
Mm.
毫米。
And we can talk about those studies.
我们可以讨论这些研究。
People are skinny and can have high amounts of visceral fat.
人们很瘦并且可能有大量的内脏脂肪。
You've heard of metabolically unhealthy but lean individuals.
您听说过代谢不健康但身材苗条的人。
Those people exist.
那些人是存在的。
And so you can have a high amount of visceral fat but not really look like you do.
因此，您可能拥有大量内脏脂肪，但实际上看起来并不像您那样。
So obviously the insulin resistance is a problem for many reasons, but it also plays a role in those energy crashes that you experience, right?
很明显，胰岛素抵抗是一个问题，原因有很多，但它也在你经历的能量崩溃中发挥了作用，对吗？
And that's kind of like some of the first signs of insulin resistance actually have to do with what you're feeling.
这有点像胰岛素抵抗的一些最初迹象实际上与您的感受有关。
So we talked about- Mm-hmm ...
所以我们讨论了-嗯-嗯...
lethargy, right?
昏昏欲睡，对吗？
So the inflammation that's being generated from this visceral fat constantly making these pro-inflammatory compounds are- Yeah ...
因此，内脏脂肪产生的炎症不断产生这些促炎化合物，是的……
it's an energy sink, right?
这是一个能量槽，对吧？
So you do constantly feel tired, but also because your cells are becoming insulin resistant, when you have a high glucose meal and you're not responding, the body kind of overcompensates and produces more insulin.
所以你确实经常感到疲倦，但也因为你的细胞变得胰岛素抵抗，当你吃了高葡萄糖餐而你没有反应时，身体会过度补偿并产生更多的胰岛素。
So it's like, "We got to get this blood glucose out of our system," right?
所以这就像是，“我们必须将血糖从我们的系统中去除”，对吧？
It can cause a lot of damage if it sits around there.
如果它坐在那里，可能会造成很大的损坏。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
And so you make more insulin.
这样你就会产生更多的胰岛素。
And then what happens is your blood glucose goes way low because it was like this overcompensation, right?
然后会发生什么，你的血糖会变得很低，因为就像这种过度补偿，对吗？
And then you feel a crash, you feel like this crash, and that signals to the hypothalamus part of the brain, "Uh, I need energy," right?
然后你会感到崩溃，你感觉像这样的崩溃，然后向大脑的下丘脑部分发出信号，“呃，我需要能量，”对吗？
So then you sort of crave, you get those cravings for those calorically energetic dense foods.
所以你有点渴望，你会渴望那些热量高的食物。
What I'm talking about is the experience of- Mm-hmm ...
我所说的是——嗯嗯……的经历
insulin resistance.
胰岛素抵抗。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
And what's interesting is that you can cause someone to gain visceral fat, and their brain can become insulin resistant.
有趣的是，你可以导致某人内脏脂肪增加，他们的大脑就会产生胰岛素抵抗。
So we think a lot about insulin resistance in the muscle, liver.
因此，我们对肌肉、肝脏中的胰岛素抵抗进行了很多思考。
Your brain also can become insulin resistance quite quickly, actually.
事实上，你的大脑也会很快产生胰岛素抵抗。
So insulin's very important in the brain for a lot of reasons, as you know.
如您所知，出于多种原因，胰岛素在大脑中非常重要。
But a couple of the things relevant to what we're talking about would be, one, is it does act on the hypothalamus and help tell it to basically stop eating, be satiated.
但与我们所讨论的内容相关的一些事情是，第一，它确实作用于下丘脑并帮助告诉它基本上停止进食，感到饱足。
Like I took a meal in, okay.
就像我进去吃过饭一样，好吧。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
I'm going to be satiated.
我会心满意足的。
But it also plays a role in energy storage and telling the body how to store the energy.
但它也起着能量储存的作用，告诉身体如何储存能量。
And so when your brain becomes insulin resistant, it's not doing that.
因此，当你的大脑产生胰岛素抵抗时，它就不会这样做。
And so you're not being satiated, so you eat more, and you're storing the fat more viscerally.
所以你不满足，所以你吃得更多，并且你的内脏储存了更多的脂肪。
And there was a study that was published actually quite recently.
实际上最近发表了一项研究。
I covered this in a recent newsletter.
我在最近的一份时事通讯中对此进行了报道。
It was a really interesting study because it was healthy young men, and researchers put them on a little bit of a calorically dense, so it was like they were eating 1,200 to 1,500 more calories a day, and it was High saturated fat, high sugar.
这是一项非常有趣的研究，因为研究对象是健康的年轻人，研究人员让他们的热量有点密集，所以就好像他们每天多吃 1,200 到 1,500 卡路里，而且是高饱和脂肪、高糖。
So it was the processed foods, ultra-processed foods, like ultimate, right?
所以是加工食品、超加工食品，比如终极食品，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a lot of extra calories.
这是很多额外的卡路里。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It's a lot of extra calories.
这是很多额外的卡路里。
In five days.
五天内。
It is.
这是。
But what happened was they did cause their brain to become insulin resistant, and they didn't gain weight, but they gained visceral fat.
但事实是，他们确实导致了大脑产生胰岛素抵抗，而且他们的体重没有增加，但内脏脂肪却增加了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And they started gaining fat around their liver, and that's something that happens as well because visceral fat is surrounding liver.
他们的肝脏周围开始增加脂肪，这种情况也会发生，因为内脏脂肪围绕肝脏。
You're getting a lot of free fatty acids, and they're going right to the liver, so the liver has to store it, right?
你会得到大量的游离脂肪酸，它们会直接进入肝脏，所以肝脏必须储存它，对吗？
So you get this non-alcoholic fatty liver.
所以你会得这种非酒精性脂肪肝。
And that happened after five days.
五天后就发生了这种事。
I mean, without gaining-
我的意思是，没有获得-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In otherwise young, healthy-
在其他方面年轻、健康——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
But they were eating a lot of calories, extra calories.
但他们摄入了大量的卡路里，额外的卡路里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, that's like a half a pizza extra above your maintenance calories per night.
是的，这相当于每晚比你的维持热量多多吃半个披萨。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And that's probably what they were doing.
这可能就是他们正在做的事情。
They were eating saturated fat and refined sugar.
他们吃的是饱和脂肪和精制糖。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Burritos and french fries.
墨西哥卷饼和炸薯条。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Obviously, if you're going to do the study, you want to kind of do it to a degree-
显然，如果你要做这项研究，你想要达到一定程度——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure
当然可以
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
where you're going to see some change, right?
你会看到一些变化，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So maybe it's not going to happen in five days if you're only eating 500 more calories a day, but over time, you will be gaining visceral fat, right?
所以，如果你每天只多吃 500 卡路里，也许五天内不会发生这种情况，但随着时间的推移，你的内脏脂肪会增加，对吗？
So it's not going to be the same degree.
所以不会是同一个学位。
It's something to be concerned about.
这是值得关心的事情。
It's something to think about, and also because you can gain it and not really even know it.
这是值得思考的事情，也是因为你可以在不知道的情况下获得它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Without gaining a pound.
没有增加一磅。
And there are other things that cause it, not just eating too many calories or diet composition.
还有其他因素会导致这种情况，而不仅仅是摄入过多的卡路里或饮食成分。
You mentioned cortisol.
你提到了皮质醇。
Chronic elevated cortisol makes you store the fat around visceral fat.
长期升高的皮质醇会让你在内脏脂肪周围储存脂肪。
Sleep loss.
睡眠不足。
There's also studies showing that you take healthy men, sleep deprive them for a couple of weeks, I think they're getting four hours of sleep a night, they can start gaining visceral fat pretty rapidly with only gaining a pound of weight.
还有研究表明，如果你让健康的男性剥夺他们的睡眠几周，我认为他们每晚睡四个小时，他们的内脏脂肪就会开始快速增加，而体重只会增加一磅。
So again, it's not necessarily something that you're going to see on the scale-
再说一遍，这不一定是你会在体重秤上看到的东西——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
but it's happening, right?
但它正在发生，对吗？
And it's affecting your short-term mood, how you feel, your energy.
它会影响你的短期情绪、感觉和能量。
It's affecting the way you're eating.
它正在影响你的饮食方式。
It's a vicious cycle because you start to eat more calories, right?
这是一个恶性循环，因为你开始摄入更多的卡路里，对吗？
And then it just becomes this vicious cycle that you start to gain more visceral fat.
然后你开始增加更多的内脏脂肪，这就是一个恶性循环。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, LMNT.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 LMNT。
LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't.
LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您需要的一切，没有您不需要的东西。
That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in the correct ratios, but no sugar.
这意味着电解质、钠、镁和钾的比例都正确，但不含糖。
Proper hydration is critical for brain and body function.
适当的水合作用对于大脑和身体功能至关重要。
Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish your cognitive and physical performance.
即使是轻微程度的脱水也会降低您的认知和身体表现。
It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes.
获得充足的电解质也很重要。
The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, are vital for the functioning of all cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells.
电解质（钠、镁和钾）对于体内所有细胞（尤其是神经元或神经细胞）的功能至关重要。
Drinking LMNT makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes.
饮用 LMNT 可以轻松确保您获得足够的水分和电解质。
My days tend to start really fast, meaning I have to jump right into work or right into exercise.
我的日子往往开始得很快，这意味着我必须立即投入工作或立即锻炼。
So to make sure that I'm hydrated and I have sufficient electrolytes, when I first wake up in the morning, I drink 16 to 32 ounces of water with an LMNT packet dissolved in it.
因此，为了确保我有足够的水分和足够的电解质，当我早上第一次醒来时，我会喝 16 至 32 盎司的水，其中溶解有 LMNT 包。
I also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes.
我还会在进行任何体育锻炼时饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT，尤其是在炎热的日子里，当我大量出汗并失去水和电解质时。
LMNT has a bunch of great-tasting flavors.
LMNT 有很多美味的口味。
In fact, I love them all.
事实上，我爱他们所有人。
I love the watermelon, the raspberry, the citrus, and I really love the lemonade flavor.
我喜欢西瓜、覆盆子、柑橘，而且我真的很喜欢柠檬水的味道。
So if you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with any purchase.
因此，如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman，购买任意商品即可领取免费的 LMNT 样品包。
Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.
再次强调，请访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman 索取免费样品包。
Such an important point that you can either not be gaining much or not gaining any total body weight, but gaining visceral fat.
如此重要的一点是，您可能不会增加太多或没有增加任何总体重，但会增加内脏脂肪。
I think that's the first time I've heard that, and it's a vital message for people to hear because this visceral fat sounds like one of the major health hazards we need to worry about.
我认为这是我第一次听到这个消息，这对人们来说是一个重要的信息，因为这种内脏脂肪听起来像是我们需要担心的主要健康危害之一。
You mentioned chronically elevated cortisol, sleep deprivation will increase visceral fat.
你提到皮质醇长期升高，睡眠不足会增加内脏脂肪。
Once again, I know I'm beating a drum here almost to death, but having high cortisol early in the day and low cortisol in the evening is the definition of not chronically high cortisol.
我知道我再一次在这里敲鼓几乎要死了，但是白天早些时候皮质醇高而晚上皮质醇低是非长期皮质醇高的定义。
The definition of chronically high cortisol is somewhat elevated or elevated cortisol in the morning, but especially in the hours before sleep.
长期高皮质醇的定义是早上皮质醇有所升高或升高，但尤其是在睡觉前的几个小时。
And I actually have a theory that is not a stretch, that one of the main reasons why it's so detrimental to our mental and physical health in the short and long term is because of the ways it disrupts sleep.
事实上，我有一个并非夸张的理论，即它在短期和长期内对我们的身心健康如此不利的主要原因之一是它扰乱了睡眠。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we can't tease those apart.
我们不能把它们分开。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you can't do a study where you spike cortisol late in the day.
而且你无法进行一项在一天晚些时候增加皮质醇的研究。
Even if you can fall asleep just fine after the end of a really stressful day, the sleep is different.
即使您在紧张的一天结束后可以很好地入睡，睡眠也会有所不同。
And people say, "Well, life has stress." And I totally agree.
人们说：“嗯，生活有压力。”我完全同意。
Lord knows I've experienced life has stress.
天知道我经历过生活的压力。
But getting that last hour of the day, doing things to push down on cortisol, push down on stress, lower heart rate, not eating-
但是在一天的最后一个小时，做一些事情来降低皮质醇，降低压力，降低心率，不吃东西——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
certainly that last hour before sleep, ideally three, I feel like that small change can make an outsized positive difference.
当然，在睡觉前的最后一个小时，最好是三个小时，我觉得这个小小的改变可以产生巨大的积极影响。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
That's interesting, the correlation between the high cortisol affecting your sleep, and maybe that's also they're related, and so the sleep loss really does make you...
有趣的是，高皮质醇影响你的睡眠之间的相关性，也许它们也是相关的，所以睡眠不足确实会让你……
We know from-
我们从——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
you probably know who the researchers are that have done those studies on sleep loss and it affecting appetite, right?
您可能知道谁对睡眠不足及其影响食欲进行了研究，对吗？
I mean, people-
我的意思是，人们——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, everything gets dysregulated.
哦，一切都变得失调了。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't want to take us off course-
我不想让我们偏离航线-
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
No
否
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but I think you might find it interesting that there's a beautiful study where they measured metabolism during sleep.
但我想你可能会发现有趣的是，有一项出色的研究，他们测量了睡眠期间的新陈代谢。
They basically had people breathe into a tube during sleep.
他们基本上让人们在睡觉时向管子里呼吸。
They had a mask on, and it turns out that the brain cycles through all the different forms of metabolism during sleep.
他们戴着面具，结果发现大脑在睡眠期间循环进行所有不同形式的新陈代谢。
There's a phase of sleep where you're essentially running on sugar.
在睡眠的某个阶段，你基本上是在消耗糖分。
It almost looks like somebody's ketogenic at one.
它看起来几乎就像某人的生酮一样。
Basically, the middle of the night, well, it should be at night, when you're sleeping is a test run of all the systems, but they get recalibrated, and it's so important.
基本上，半夜，嗯，应该是在晚上，当你睡觉的时候，是所有系统的测试运行，但它们会被重新校准，这非常重要。
I actually think most of the negative effects of alcohol that people talk about, yes, it's a poison, it's a class one carcinogen as classified by the World Health Organization.
事实上，我认为人们谈论的大多数酒精的负面影响，是的，它是一种毒药，它是世界卫生组织归类的一级致癌物。
I think most of the negative effects of drinking are because of the negative effects of alcohol on sleep.
我认为饮酒的大部分负面影响都是因为酒精对睡眠的负面影响。
I'm not telling people-
我不会告诉人们——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
drink in the morning, but-
早上喝水，但是——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I think that if you get your sleep right, you're not 90% of the way there, but you're halfway there.
我认为，如果你睡得好，你虽然还没有达到目标的 90%，但已经成功了一半。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I really do believe that.
我确实相信这一点。
And then getting your sleep right makes you do a bunch of other things.
正确的睡眠可以让你做很多其他的事情。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
You're more motivated to exercise, for one.
一方面，你更有动力去锻炼。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
More motivated to exercise, your food choices, I mean, and on and on.
我的意思是，你更有动力去锻炼，你的食物选择等等。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Food choices.
食物选择。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The problem with talking about sleep as so important is people will get sleep anxiety, so we tap dance around this like, "Oh, we don't want people stressed." Learn how to fall asleep.
谈论睡眠如此重要的问题是人们会感到睡眠焦虑，所以我们围绕这个问题跳踢踏舞，“哦，我们不想让人们有压力。”了解如何入睡。
Learn how to fall back asleep.
了解如何重新入睡。
No one gets it perfect.
没有人能做到完美。
Yes, you'll survive.
是的，你会活下来。
One poor night's sleep or an all-nighter, you're not going to die.
一晚睡不好或一整夜，你都不会死。
Just get good at it on average.
平均而言，只要做好就好。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
That's what I'd say.
我就是这么说的。
Could you tell us what the structure of the intermittent fasting is for you?
您能告诉我们间歇性禁食的结构适合您吗？
Does that mean skipping breakfast, skipping lunch, skipping dinner?
这是否意味着不吃早餐、不吃午餐、不吃晚餐？
Because I know a number of people are sort of getting drawn back to intermittent fasting after a couple of years of it getting beat up on-
因为我知道很多人在间歇性禁食几年后受到了打击之后又重新开始了——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as like not the best way to lose fat, or it is a...
就像这不是减肥的最佳方法，或者它是...
I think it's a terrific way to do the sorts of things that you're describing, and I'm learning today more about the positive things it can do, for insulin sensitivity and so forth.
我认为这是一种实现你所描述的事情的好方法，今天我更多地了解了它可以做的积极的事情，例如胰岛素敏感性等等。
If you're on a bout of intermittent fasting, are you doing it by the clock?
如果您正在进行间歇性禁食，您会按时进行吗？
Are you doing it by feel?
你是凭感觉做事吗？
What does it look like?
它看起来像什么？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
For me, it really does depend on the day, and I really do try to stop eating three hours before I go to bed.
对我来说，这确实取决于当天，我确实尝试在睡觉前三个小时停止进食。
It doesn't always happen, with family obligations, social obligations.
由于家庭义务、社会义务，这种情况并不总是发生。
But it's the habit that's important, right?
但习惯很重要，对吗？
So intermittent fasting, it's more than just one intervention, as I mentioned.
正如我提到的，间歇性禁食不仅仅是一种干预措施。
It's a behavioral tool that you can use to limit your calorie intake without actually having to count all the calories, which some people like to do, some people don't.
这是一种行为工具，您可以使用它来限制卡路里摄入量，而无需实际计算所有卡路里，有些人喜欢这样做，有些人则不这样做。
Right?
正确的？
So it's a tool, but also, it's really important for a metabolic switch.
所以它是一种工具，而且对于代谢转换也非常重要。
As you mentioned, insulin sensitivity.
正如您提到的，胰岛素敏感性。
And the metabolic switch is something that Dr. Mark Mattson coined, and I love it because I feel like thinking about intermittent fasting in that way makes it a little more clear as to the benefits of it.
代谢转换是马克·马特森博士创造的，我喜欢它，因为我觉得以这种方式思考间歇性禁食可以让人们更清楚地了解它的好处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It depends on the meal you have and how much exercise you do, right?
这取决于你吃的饭菜和你做了多少运动，对吧？
But on average, let's say 11, 12 hours to deplete your liver glycogen levels.
但平均而言，假设 11、12 小时即可耗尽您的肝糖原水平。
And once that happens, you do start to burn fat and use fatty acids as fuel and make ketone bodies, so you go into ketogenesis, right?
一旦发生这种情况，你确实开始燃烧脂肪并使用脂肪酸作为燃料并产生酮体，所以你进入了生酮，对吗？
And that's a metabolic switch, metabolic flexibility.
这就是新陈代谢的转变，新陈代谢的灵活性。
You're going from using carbohydrates as fuel to using fatty acids and making ketone bodies as fuel.
你将从使用碳水化合物作为燃料转向使用脂肪酸并制造酮体作为燃料。
And that's something that, throughout human evolution was ingrained, right?
这是在整个人类进化过程中根深蒂固的东西，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
We didn't always have access to Uber Eats and Instacart, and you just at a swipe, you get food, right?
我们并不总是可以使用 Uber Eats 和 Instacart，而你只需轻轻一划，就能得到食物，对吗？
There were many times when people had to not eat because they couldn't forage their foods, maybe the time of year, or they couldn't hunt their food because they didn't get a win or whatever.
很多时候，人们不得不不吃东西，因为他们无法寻找食物，也许是一年中的这个时候，或者他们因为没有获胜或其他原因而无法寻找食物。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So this metabolic flexibility is something that's really ingrained in our DNA in a sense, right?
所以从某种意义上说，这种代谢灵活性确实根植于我们的 DNA 中，对吗？
One of the reasons I like to do that is the ketone production.
我喜欢这样做的原因之一是酮的生产。
And why is that?
这是为什么呢？
Ketones are really a clean way to burn energy.
酮确实是一种燃烧能量的清洁方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So they generate less oxidative stress, less oxidative products, but they also are energetically favorable in that it takes less energy to use them to make energy than glucose does.
因此，它们产生的氧化应激和氧化产物较少，但它们在能量上也很有利，因为使用它们产生能量所需的能量比葡萄糖少。
So it takes more energy to use glucose as energy than it does ketones.
因此，使用葡萄糖作为能量比使用酮需要更多的能量。
But they're also a signaling molecule, so it's a way for the body to signal to other parts of the body, like, "Hey, this is a stressful time.
但它们也是一种信号分子，所以这是身体向身体其他部位发出信号的一种方式，比如，“嘿，这是一个压力很大的时期。
There's no food.
没有食物了。
I'm in ketosis.
我处于酮症状态。
Let's make you stronger." Right?
让我们让你变得更强。”正确的？
Because that's kind of what evolution wants.
因为这正是进化所需要的。
If you're not able to find or eat food, you have to be stronger to be able to do it, right?
如果你找不到或吃不到食物，你就必须变得更强才能做到，对吧？
And so that's kind of at the, I'd say, core of this metabolic switch and why it's important.
所以我想说，这就是这种代谢转换的核心以及它的重要性。
And I think that I really...
而且我想我真的...
Mark Mattson being the pioneer in this, and as a neuroscientist, really looking at the benefits in the brain as well.
马克·马特森（Mark Mattson）是这方面的先驱，作为一名神经科学家，他也真正关注对大脑的好处。
These ketones, like beta-hydroxybutyrate, are activating growth factors like brain-derived neurotrophic factor in the brain.
这些酮，如β-羟基丁酸，可激活大脑中的生长因子，如脑源性神经营养因子。
As you know, it's very important for learning, memory, synapse formation, and stuff.
如您所知，它对于学习、记忆、突触形成等非常重要。
This is hugely important for neuroplasticity.
这对于神经可塑性非常重要。
So it's activating beneficial compounds like that.
所以它会激活类似的有益化合物。
And again, it's not going to happen if you're never going into this metabolic switch.
再说一遍，如果你不进行这种新陈代谢转变，这一切就不会发生。
And there's other ways to get there, right?
还有其他方法可以到达那里，对吧？
So you can limit your food, go into this ketosis, right, where you're basically depleting your liver glycogen.
所以你可以限制你的食物，进入酮症，对吧，你基本上会耗尽你的肝糖原。
Or you can exercise a lot, right?
或者你可以多运动，对吧？
So your energy expenditure goes up.
所以你的能量消耗会增加。
So there's different ways to get to this metabolic switch.
因此，有不同的方法可以实现这种代谢转变。
It doesn't necessarily have to be intermittent fasting.
不一定非要间歇性禁食。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it.
明白了。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And I'm telling you this because I want to tell you why I'm sort of back-
我告诉你这些是因为我想告诉你为什么我回来了-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
on the intermittent fasting.
关于间歇性禁食。
And by the way, it's not for everyone.
顺便说一句，它并不适合所有人。
Like I said, I think that you can find other ways to get this metabolic switch, and, for me, intermittent fasting works.
就像我说的，我认为你可以找到其他方法来实现这种代谢转变，对我来说，间歇性禁食是有效的。
And so what I do typically is I will do most of the time my workouts will be fasted.
所以我通常做的大部分时间都是空腹锻炼。
Not all the time.
并非一直如此。
It does depend on how I feel.
这确实取决于我的感受。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What time do you typically wake up?
您通常什么时间起床？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So I wake up between 6:00 and 7:00.
所以我在 6:00 到 7:00 之间醒来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And if I didn't have a family, getting my son ready, and I would probably work out right away.
如果我没有家庭，让我的儿子做好准备，我可能会立即锻炼。
But I don't end up working out until 8:30.
但我直到8点30分才结束锻炼。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's still pretty early.
现在还很早。
What time do you go to sleep, if you don't mind me asking?
如果你不介意我问的话，你几点睡觉？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I'm asleep by 10:00.
我10:00就睡了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But usually in bed at 9:00.
但通常是在9:00上床睡觉。
Takes an hour of just hanging out.
光是闲逛就需要一个小时。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Or 9:30 sometimes.
有时是 9:30。
But yeah, usually 10 o'clock is when I'm sleeping.
但是，是的，通常十点钟是我睡觉的时间。
That's my bedtime.
那是我的睡觉时间。
And, so I do stop eating.
而且，所以我确实停止进食了。
I try to stop eating by 7:00 PM.
我尝试在晚上 7:00 之前停止进食。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But typically my first meal on, it depends on the day, but it'll usually be around 11:00, maybe sometimes 12:00.
但通常我的第一顿饭会根据当天的情况而定，但通常会在 11:00 左右，有时可能在 12:00 左右。
If I'm doing a podcast, it'll be later.
如果我要做播客，那就晚点了。
And, I do like to be fasted in the morning because the cognitive benefits is really what I'm interested in with that metabolic switch, and it does come down to ketones.
而且，我确实喜欢早上禁食，因为我对代谢转换真正感兴趣的是认知益处，而它确实归结为酮。
And I know that Mark Mattson's talked a lot about this.
我知道马克·马特森对此谈了很多。
I had him on my podcast a few years ago, actually.
事实上，几年前我的播客上就收录了他。
I learned so much.
我学到了很多。
But the ketones like beta-hydroxybutyrate are increasing GABA.
但β-羟基丁酸等酮类会增加 GABA。
They're balancing the glutamate, the excitatory neurotransmitter, with the inhibitory one, GABA.
他们正在平衡谷氨酸（兴奋性神经递质）和抑制性神经递质（GABA）。
And I think the increase in GABA is what helps me and what I love the most because it does help, I think, quiet down some of the other I don't know, chitter-chatter in my brain and help me focus because it's like somehow the GABA is calming in a way.
我认为 GABA 的增加对我有帮助，也是我最喜欢的，因为我认为它确实有助于让我不知道的其他事情安静下来，帮助我集中注意力，因为它就像 GABA 在某种程度上使人平静。
I don't know exactly.
我不太清楚。
You could probably describe it better than I can.
你可能比我能更好地描述它。
All I know is that I really like it.
我只知道我真的很喜欢它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And so in the mornings, I like to be fasted, I like to be cognitively aware.
所以在早上，我喜欢禁食，我喜欢保持认知意识。
It's when I get most of my productive work done, and I feel smarter, so I'm doing it.
当我完成大部分富有成效的工作时，我感觉自己更聪明，所以我就这么做了。
And that's why I typically like to shift my breakfast to later.
这就是为什么我通常喜欢把早餐推迟到晚些时候。
Now, I would say some days I do only eat two meals where I am honestly I'm skipping the "breakfast."
现在，我想说有些日子我只吃两顿饭，老实说我不吃“早餐”。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But some days I do have three meals, and oftentimes they're different sized meals, right?
但有时我确实会吃三顿饭，而且通常都是不同份量的饭菜，对吗？
And usually if I do have three meals, the third one will be the in-between the first meal and the second meal will be a very half or a three-fourths of a turkey burger or something.
通常，如果我确实吃三顿饭，第三顿饭将是第一顿饭之间的中间餐，第二顿饭将是火鸡汉堡或其他东西的一半或四分之三。
So it's mostly protein, and it's not heavy.
所以主要是蛋白质，而且不重。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But so I would say I'm usually 11 to 7 probably-
但我想说我通常是 11 到 7 可能 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
is when I'm eating my meals-
就是我吃饭的时候——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
most days.
大多数日子。
Some days I fast for a shorter period of time.
有时我禁食的时间较短。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Some days I wake up in the morning because I did too early of like I'd stopped eating like four or five hours before bed, and I'm like, "I need to eat."
有时我早上醒来，因为我起得太早了，就像我在睡前四五个小时停止进食一样，我想，“我需要吃东西。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And guess what?
你猜怎么着？
I eat, and then I work out, and it's like that's you kind of just listen to what your body's doing.
我吃饭，然后锻炼，就好像你只是听听你的身体在做什么。
Actually, Mark Mattson just published a study very, very recently showing that he did a f- I think he was doing a five-two intermittent fasting protocol where it's like two days you're getting pretty severe caloric restriction.
事实上，马克·马特森（Mark Mattson）最近刚刚发表了一项研究，表明他做了一个——我认为他正在执行五两间歇性禁食方案，就像两天你受到相当严格的热量限制一样。
Like you're eating one meal, but it's like 500 calories for the day, and it's twice, two days out of the week.
就像你吃一顿饭，但一天大约摄入 500 卡路里，而且一周中有两次。
The other five days you're eating normal.
其他五天你饮食正常。
And compared that to eating like a healthy diet, and they were somewhat calorie restricted, but not quite as much as the people that were doing the fasting.
与健康饮食相比，他们的卡路里摄入量有所限制，但不如禁食的人那么多。
And the fasting group had massive cognitive benefits, like 20% improvement in a battery of tests that were done.
禁食组的认知能力得到了巨大的改善，比如在一系列测试中，认知能力提高了 20%。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He attributes that to the ketones and the effect of ketones on GABA.
他将其归因于酮以及酮对 GABA 的影响。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
He does.
他做到了。
He attributes it to the ketones.
他将其归因于酮。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And like can you get that to some degree with caloric restriction?
就像你可以通过限制热量来达到某种程度吗？
Probably, especially the more severe caloric restriction you do, you can.
也许，尤其是你进行的更严格的热量限制，你可以。
If we're talking about weight loss, caloric restriction's key, right?
如果我们谈论减肥，热量限制是关键，对吗？
You have to have that.
你必须拥有那个。
If we're talking about the cardiovascular reset, like caloric restriction, if you're eating meals right before bed, you're not going to get that.
如果我们谈论的是心血管重置，比如热量限制，如果你在睡觉前吃饭，你就不会明白这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Like those studies have been done.
就像那些已经完成的研究一样。
And I think Courtney Peterson was one of the first ones to really show that effect on blood pressure, like really significant effect.
我认为考特尼·彼得森是第一个真正展示这种对血压影响的人之一，就像真正显着的影响一样。
If you do early time restricted eating and stop eating I don't know how early in the day it was, maybe 6:00 PM-
如果您尽早限制饮食并停止进食，我不知道现在是多早，也许是下午 6:00 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
maybe it was 8:00 PM, but there was like a blood pressure drop that was like 10 I think it was, points or something, millimeters of mercury.
也许当时是晚上 8:00，但血压下降了 10 毫米汞柱，我认为是点之类的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Significant.
意义重大。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
What is it?
它是什么？
Is it-
难道是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yep.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So, I mean, that's very significant.
所以，我的意思是，这非常重要。
It's on magnitude of what you'd see with some of the first-line drugs that are used to treat hypertension.
它的严重程度与您在一些用于治疗高血压的一线药物中所看到的一样。
I would never say for someone to do that, but I'm just saying it's significant.
我永远不会要求某人这样做，但我只是说这很重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And that's not something that you'd typically see if you're eating-
这不是你在吃饭时通常会看到的东西——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
fewer calories, but you're eating constantly throughout the day.
卡路里较少，但您全天不断进食。
So I do think there are special benefits that can be had, but again, it's also a tool that people use.
所以我确实认为它有一些特殊的好处，但同样，它也是人们使用的工具。
I use it as a tool as well.
我也用它作为工具。
I don't like to count calories.
我不喜欢计算卡路里。
Some people do, and that's fine.
有些人这样做，那很好。
Then that's the way you can do it.
那么你就可以这样做。
But I like it for the metabolic switch as well.
但我也喜欢它的新陈代谢开关。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
If I were an endurance athlete running 10, 14 miles a day, I wouldn't have to do this.
如果我是一名每天跑 10、14 英里的耐力运动员，我就不必这样做。
That would be my metabolic switch.
那将是我的新陈代谢开关。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And it's not that I'm not metabolically flexible.
这并不是说我的新陈代谢不灵活。
I think you can just training itself does, to some degree, help with metabolic flexibility, right?
我认为训练本身在某种程度上确实有助于提高新陈代谢的灵活性，对吗？
The ability to switch between burning glucose and carbohydrates and then using fat and fatty acids as your energy source.
能够在燃烧葡萄糖和碳水化合物之间切换，然后使用脂肪和脂肪酸作为能量来源。
It's that I want that real switch to be on, and I want it to be on for a little bit of time, and then I want to turn it off by eating.
我希望那个真正的开关打开，我希望它打开一段时间，然后我想通过吃东西将其关闭。
I'm not starving myself, and I think you can go too far with exercise and with-
我并没有让自己挨饿，而且我认为你可以通过锻炼和-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure
当然可以
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
fasting.
禁食。
The problems with fasting and the people that are like, "Oh, fasting's terrible for you," it comes down to one, they were all about it's like the weight loss is not just due to intermittent fasting itself, it's due to calorie restriction.
禁食的问题以及人们会说，“哦，禁食对你来说很糟糕”，归根结底，他们都认为体重减轻不仅仅是由于间歇性禁食本身，而是由于热量限制。
Guess what?
你猜怎么着？
They were right.
他们是对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Number two, they're afraid of losing muscle.
第二，他们害怕失去肌肉。
And I think we have enough data now that it's like if you're training, if you're doing resistance training, you're not going to be losing muscle.
我认为我们现在有足够的数据，就像如果你正在训练，如果你正在进行阻力训练，你就不会失去肌肉。
Now, maybe you won't gain as much as if you were eating more protein, but you could.
现在，也许你不会获得比吃更多蛋白质那么多的东西，但你可以。
You could just eat more protein within the window that you're eating and be fine, right?
你可以在你正在吃的时间内吃更多的蛋白质就可以了，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So I think that's the other thing that people are worried about is muscle loss, including myself.
所以我认为人们担心的另一件事是肌肉损失，包括我自己。
And I train so much now, and it just works well for me, and I feel good.
我现在训练了很多，这对我来说效果很好，我感觉很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And it's like this clean feeling.
就是这种干净的感觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
You feel cognitively sharp, and it works.
你感觉自己认知敏锐，而且它很有效。
And I think that the metabolic switch is something to not be scared of, as long as you're not, again, going to the extreme, right?
我认为新陈代谢的转变是不需要害怕的，只要你不再次走向极端，对吗？
And if you don't want to train while you're fasted, don't train while you're fasted.
如果您不想在禁食时进行训练，就不要在禁食时进行训练。
You don't have to.
你不必这样做。
I think there's a little bit of an added benefit that works for me in terms of burning fat, particularly visceral fat, and to me, that's what works well.
我认为在燃烧脂肪（特别是内脏脂肪）方面对我来说有一点额外的好处，对我来说，这就是效果很好的。
But you can obviously if you're training hard and a lot and really fasting, maybe that's too much.
但显然，如果你刻苦训练、大量训练并且真正禁食，也许那就太多了。
It's too much of a stress, so you have to kind of figure it out for yourself.
压力太大了，所以你必须自己解决。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I think the known increase in adrenaline from being slightly fasted is awesome for cognitive function.
是的，我认为稍微禁食会增加肾上腺素，这对于认知功能来说是很棒的。
I think it allows people to ingest fewer stimulants in the form of caffeine.
我认为它可以让人们摄入更少的咖啡因形式的兴奋剂。
You don't need as much caffeine when you're-
当你——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
doing some fasting.
禁食。
What you describe is similar to what I do, although I notice these days I'm waking up hungrier and hungrier, and I attribute that actually to my last bite of food coming a little bit earlier in the day and further from sleep.
你所描述的与我所做的相似，尽管我注意到这些天我醒来时越来越饿，而且我实际上将其归因于我的最后一口食物来得早了一点，离睡眠更远了。
And also that thermogenic effect of eating raises core body temperature and you know to fall asleep, you want your body temperature dropping.
而且饮食的产热效应会提高核心体温，你知道入睡时，你希望体温下降。
What I think is very exciting to me is that for a few years there, it seemed like there were just so many things, so many protocols, so many studies, but- When I think about cortisol high in the morning, low in the evening, bracketing the day, what works best for sleep, what you're describing, certainly today you really, in addition to many other things, really clarified the relationship between gut and inflammation and brain and other tissues.
我认为令我非常兴奋的是，在那里的几年里，似乎有这么多的事情，这么多的协议，这么多的研究，但是-当我想到早上皮质醇高，晚上低，包围一天，什么对睡眠最有效，你所描述的，当然今天，除了许多其他事情之外，你真的澄清了肠道与炎症、大脑和其他组织之间的关系。
Things start to fall into bins that it's like all of biology, so beautifully organized that it doesn't mean long lists of things for people to do.
事情开始落入垃圾箱，就像所有的生物学一样，组织得如此完美，并不意味着人们需要做一长串的事情。
I love the idea that while it sounds like you're just saying, "Oh, if I wake up and I'm hungry, I eat.
我喜欢这个想法，虽然听起来你只是在说，“哦，如果我醒来并且我饿了，我就会吃东西。
And if I'm not, and I think I can train fasted, I like to train fasted." That might seem like an obvious thing to some, but I think it's so critical because the mechanism that you're chasing in both cases is the same.
如果我没有，而且我认为我可以禁食训练，我喜欢禁食训练。”对于某些人来说，这似乎是一件显而易见的事情，但我认为这非常重要，因为您在这两种情况下追求的机制是相同的。
You're trying to get great sleep, great workouts, but you're not trying to optimize the workout to the point where you disrupt your sleep or you insist on doing something like eating or fasting, whatever it is.
你试图获得良好的睡眠，进行良好的锻炼，但你并没有试图将锻炼优化到扰乱睡眠或坚持做一些事情，比如吃饭或禁食，无论是什么。
So the find out what works for you thing is so crucial because it's about feel that fits into a logic.
因此，找出适合你的东西非常重要，因为它关乎符合逻辑的感觉。
And I have to say, that's initially what drew me to your work is there's a logic.
我不得不说，这就是你的作品最初吸引我的地方，因为它有逻辑。
You're not just saying, "Okay, this study said this, so I'm going to do this." It fits into a broader logic that comes from your training.
你不只是说：“好吧，这项研究是这么说的，所以我要这么做。”它符合您的培训所产生的更广泛的逻辑。
So that's just a point of gratitude, and I hope it'll frame in people's minds that, yes, do what you feel, do what works for you, but try and frame it in a certain logic.
所以这只是一个感激之情，我希望它能在人们的脑海中形成这样的观念：是的，做你想做的事，做对你有用的事，但尝试用某种逻辑来构建它。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because that's actually what gives you flexibility over time.
因为随着时间的推移，这实际上会给你带来灵活性。
Like, oh, you're traveling, you have to eat a little later.
就像，哦，你在旅行，你得晚点吃饭。
Okay, the next morning, maybe train fasted or vice versa.
好吧，第二天早上，也许空腹训练，反之亦然。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It's about the habit.
这是关于习惯的。
Exactly.
确切地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It's about the habit.
这是关于习惯的。
And there are days when I just like, I can't train fasted, or there are days where I wake up and I have to eat.
有些日子我就是喜欢，我不能禁食训练，或者有些日子我醒来后必须吃饭。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
And there are nights when I'm eating later because of social obligations, and I don't freak out about it because it's about the habit.
有时晚上，我会因为社交义务而吃晚饭，但我不会对此感到害怕，因为这是习惯的问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I like the idea of one metabolic switch per day.
我喜欢每天进行一次新陈代谢转换的想法。
You said you could get it from exercise.
你说你可以通过锻炼获得它。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I thought, I can really imagine that in five years, a concept of health that hopefully everyone understands out there is that find a way to generate the metabolic switch once per day.
我想，我真的可以想象，在五年内，希望每个人都能理解的健康概念是找到一种每天产生一次代谢转换的方法。
Maybe you fast and exercise.
也许你禁食并锻炼身体。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe you just exercise.
也许你只是锻炼身体。
Maybe you just fast because you can't exercise, because people's schedules are constrained.
也许你禁食只是因为你无法锻炼，因为人们的日程安排受到限制。
But the notion of the metabolic switches being, here's where it fits in exactly.
但代谢转换的概念恰恰适合于此。
The logic is you want the metabolic switch.
逻辑是你想要新陈代谢的转变。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
You do.
你会的。
There's other components to this metabolic switch that we haven't even discussed, which is like when you're in that fasted state, when you're in the ketosis, like that's also repair mode for your body, right?
这种代谢开关还有其他组成部分，我们甚至还没有讨论过，就像当你处于禁食状态时，当你处于酮症状态时，这也是你身体的修复模式，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So there's the fed state, the grow, anabolic, and of course, we're all obsessed with anabolic now because they're associated with muscle growth, right?
所以有进食状态、生长、合成代谢，当然，我们现在都沉迷于合成代谢，因为它们与肌肉生长有关，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But there's also the repair and recovery state, right?
但还有修复和恢复状态，对吗？
And so you don't always want the growth on, right?
所以你并不总是希望增长，对吧？
You want to repair damage.
您想要修复损坏。
And repairing damage can be damage to DNA.
而修复损伤可能是DNA损伤。
A lot of these genes are activated when you're in a nutrient-deprived state, right, when you're in that metabolic switch.
当你处于营养缺乏状态时，当你处于代谢转换状态时，很多这些基因都会被激活。
And autophagy, and that's another one that people, it's a buzzword now, but it is something that is activated.
自噬，这是人们现在的另一个流行词，但它是被激活的东西。
First of all, we have basal amount of autophagy going on at any point, right?
首先，我们在任何时候都会发生基础量的自噬，对吧？
Like that's happening.
就像正在发生的那样。
Like-
就像-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You don't have to fast-
你不必禁食——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
You don't have to fast
你不必禁食
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to get it.
得到它。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or be in a caloric deficit, which will also-
或者处于热量不足状态，这也会-
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
exacerbate it.
加剧它。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
You do have fasted activated autophagy, and certain tissues are more sensitive, like the liver and the brain, actually.
你确实已经禁食激活了自噬，并且某些组织实际上更加敏感，例如肝脏和大脑。
And so, we don't have a lot of human data on that in terms of like fasting.
因此，我们没有大量关于禁食等方面的人类数据。
Exercise also activates it.
运动也会激活它。
We don't have a lot of great quality human data, and that's for a lot of reasons.
我们没有大量高质量的人类数据，原因有很多。
One is the tissues that are most responsive to fasting-induced autophagy are not blood cells.
一是对禁食诱导的自噬反应最敏感的组织不是血细胞。
In fact, blood cells are pretty restricted in their response to fasted induced autophagy, but that's the easiest cell to access if you're going to measure autophagy in humans, right?
事实上，血细胞对禁食诱导的自噬的反应非常有限，但如果你要测量人类的自噬，这是最容易接近的细胞，对吗？
Muscle biopsies have been done.
肌肉活检已完成。
The muscle's also responsive to fasting-induced autophagy.
肌肉也会对禁食引起的自噬做出反应。
It's as responsive to exercise-induced autophagy.
它对运动引起的自噬也有反应。
By the way, the exercise, again, it's increasing energy expenditure, so at the end of the day, you're getting into that sort of ketosis state, the metabolic switch.
顺便说一句，锻炼又增加了能量消耗，所以在一天结束时，你会进入那种酮症状态，即代谢转换。
So, there are studies showing that there's a signal there, but for some people it's not enough.
因此，有研究表明那里存在信号，但对于某些人来说这还不够。
Well, it's not enough.
好吧，这还不够。
We don't really know.
我们真的不知道。
And you can't go off the animal data.
而且你不能放弃动物数据。
And I think to some degree, it's going to be hard to go get a liver.
我认为在某种程度上，去获取肝脏会很困难。
I mean, maybe we'll have some tools soon that we can easily access a liver biopsy, and that'd be great for many reasons, right?
我的意思是，也许我们很快就会拥有一些工具，可以轻松进行肝脏活检，这出于多种原因会很棒，对吧？
Not just looking at autophagy.
不仅仅是关注自噬。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But I think that to some degree, you kind of just have to know that, okay, autophagy's happening right now in our cells.
但我认为在某种程度上，你只需要知道，自噬现在正在我们的细胞中发生。
So we know that it's activated by fasting, by exercise, by these types of stress, and so why wouldn't it be increased somewhat?
所以我们知道它是通过禁食、锻炼和这些类型的压力激活的，那么为什么它不会有所增加呢？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And when I say autophagy, I'm talking about clearing out gunk that's built up in your cell throughout the day.
当我说自噬时，我指的是清除细胞中一整天积累的垃圾。
We're talking about pieces of DNA, fragments of DNA.
我们谈论的是 DNA 片段、DNA 片段。
We're talking about protein aggregates that didn't get, they're either not properly folding, or they're not being degraded, right?
我们谈论的是没有得到的蛋白质聚集体，它们要么没有正确折叠，要么没有被降解，对吧？
All sorts of stuff, right?
各种各样的东西，对吧？
And it's important.
这很重要。
This is a cleanup process.
这是一个清理过程。
It's important.
这很重要。
And so again, that's another part of the metabolic switch that I think is important to think about because we are really obsessed with anabolic, anabolic, is it anabolic?
再说一遍，这是代谢转换的另一部分，我认为思考这一点很重要，因为我们真的很痴迷于合成代谢，合成代谢，它是合成代谢吗？
It's great.
这很棒。
You definitely want to grow muscle, right?
你肯定想增长肌肉，对吧？
You do want to grow new brain cells and stuff too, but you also want to repair and you want to have recovery, and that's another...
你确实也想长出新的脑细胞之类的东西，但你也想修复并恢复，那是另一回事......
It's like the yin and the yang, right?
就像阴和阳一样，对吗？
You kind of want both.
你有点想要两者。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So I think that's important to think about as well.
所以我认为考虑这一点也很重要。
And intermittent fasting, I like the daily metabolic switch.
间歇性禁食，我喜欢每天的代谢转换。
It may not be for everyone.
它可能不适合所有人。
Like I said, I do think that you can find other ways to get there, exercise being the big one.
就像我说的，我确实认为你可以找到其他方法来实现这一目标，其中锻炼是最重要的。
Some people do caloric restriction.
有些人会限制热量。
Some people don't need to.
有些人不需要。
Caloric restriction is something that helps if you're trying to lose weight, right?
如果您想减肥，限制热量是有帮助的，对吧？
It helps if you're trying to lose visceral fat.
如果您想减掉内脏脂肪，它会有所帮助。
It's one of the main ways you can do it, intermittent fasting, caloric restriction, exercise, aerobic exercise that helps lose visceral fat.
这是你可以做到的主要方法之一，间歇性禁食、热量限制、锻炼、有氧运动有助于减少内脏脂肪。
But obviously we don't always want to be in a caloric deficit, but we always don't want to be constantly eating either.
但显然我们并不总是希望处于热量不足状态，但我们也不总是希望不断地吃东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And that's why it comes down to, I think, the simple rule for people, like if they're going to do some sort of ...
我认为这就是为什么它归结为人们的简单规则，就像他们是否要做某种......
metabolic switch, some sort of intermittent fast, it would be like, okay, let's try to at least stop eating three hours before bed because then you're at least going to be extending that fast somewhat by three hours, right?
代谢转换，某种间歇性禁食，就像，好吧，让我们尝试至少在睡前三个小时停止进食，因为那样你至少会将该禁食时间延长三个小时，对吗？
So I think that's-- And plus you're getting the cardiovascular benefits that really seem to be important.
所以我认为——而且你还能获得对心血管的好处，这似乎真的很重要。
And then not eating at night.
然后晚上就不吃饭了。
So there's all these studies that have come out of Israel.
所有这些研究都是来自以色列。
I think it's, is it Jacobitz?
我想是的，是雅各比兹吗？
Jacobitz and Froy, they're two researchers.
雅各比茨和弗洛伊，他们是两位研究人员。
I mean, Satchin Panda, I remember years ago, showed me one of the studies, it was published in Science, showing that if you have the same exact meal, same calorie intake, same composition, macronutrient composition in the morning, the afternoon, in the evening, the insulin response is different.
我的意思是，Satchin Panda，我记得几年前，向我展示了一项研究，它发表在《科学》杂志上，表明如果你在早上、下午和晚上吃同样的一餐、相同的卡路里摄入量、相同的成分、常量营养素成分，胰岛素反应是不同的。
You're the most insulin sensitive early in the morning.
清晨，您对胰岛素最敏感。
As you start to go towards the evening, and particularly three hours before your natural bedtime, your melatonin levels naturally rise, right?
当您开始接近傍晚时，尤其是在自然就寝时间前三个小时，您的褪黑激素水平自然会上升，对吗？
And as you know, melatonin is important for the onset of sleep and preparing the body for sleep, but it's also preparing the other organs for rest and recovery, including the pancreas, which is making insulin.
如您所知，褪黑激素对于睡眠的开始和身体为睡眠做好准备非常重要，但它也为其他器官的休息和恢复做好准备，包括产生胰岛素的胰腺。
And so you're not making as much insulin when it's closer to your natural bedtime because of the melatonin levels that are rising.
因此，当接近自然就寝时间时，由于褪黑激素水平上升，您不会产生那么多胰岛素。
And so you don't want to be eating, particularly a carbohydrate-rich meal, but a meal, you're not going to be as insulin sensitive.
所以你不想吃东西，特别是富含碳水化合物的食物，但是一顿饭，你就不会那么对胰岛素敏感。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In the last three hours before sleep.
睡觉前最后三个小时。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
When you're starting to get into that melatonin rising phase of-
当您开始进入褪黑激素升高阶段时-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
of your cycle.
你的周期。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, it's interesting.
是的，这很有趣。
I think when people hear, okay, you're most insulin sensitive in the morning, that would be the time to eat your biggest meal.
我认为，当人们听到“好吧，你在早上对胰岛素最敏感”时，那就是吃最丰盛的一餐的时间。
But then people say, "Wait, but then I'm trying to fast, and I'm trying to exercise, and how do I do this?" I think that's where for them the confusion comes in.
但随后人们会说：“等等，但我正在尝试禁食，我正在尝试锻炼，我该怎么做呢？”我认为这就是他们感到困惑的地方。
And to me, it's very simple.
对我来说，这非常简单。
Just because your insulin sensitivity is highest first thing in the morning doesn't mean you have to eat right away.
仅仅因为您早上第一件事的胰岛素敏感性最高，并不意味着您必须立即进食。
I mean, it just means avoid eating too close to bedtime, right?
我的意思是，这只是意味着避免在睡前吃东西，对吗？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sometime during the day.
白天的某个时候。
And also if you exercise fasted or after a small snack.
另外，如果您空腹或吃点零食后锻炼。
It was kind of interesting when Stacy Sims said not everyone should exercise fasted.
当史黛西·西姆斯说不是每个人都应该禁食锻炼时，这很有趣。
She said, especially a lot of women don't like to do that.
她说，尤其是很多女性不喜欢这样做。
She didn't say eat a meal.
她没说吃饭。
She said, "Have a scoop of whey protein with some," I think she said, "with some almond milk in it." And you couldn't believe the response on the internet.
她说，“喝一勺乳清蛋白，”我想她是说，“里面加一些杏仁奶。”你无法相信互联网上的反应。
It was like vindication, right?
这就像辩护，对吧？
And I get it.
我明白了。
It was like it vindicated people's experience.
这就像它证明了人们的经历是正确的。
Like, "Oh, thank you, thank you." And it told me something really important about the kind of sociology of what we do, which is when something validates people's experience, they love it.
就像，“哦，谢谢你，谢谢你。”它告诉我关于我们所做的社会学的一些非常重要的事情，那就是当某些东西验证了人们的经历时，他们就会喜欢它。
But it doesn't mean that the things that work for other people don't work.
但这并不意味着对其他人有效的事情不起作用。
And I think that that's the part that gets lost.
我认为这就是丢失的部分。
And so if a study shows that insulin sensitivity is highest in the morning, but you can only exercise first thing in the morning, what do you do?
因此，如果一项研究表明胰岛素敏感性在早上最高，但你只能在早上做第一件事，你会怎么做？
So you do the best you can.
所以你尽你所能。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
I think is what it comes down to.
我想这就是归根结底。
In fact, I meant to ask you earlier, and this is a good time to talk about this.
其实我早就想问你了，现在正是谈论这个问题的好时机。
You've described that if you are slightly sleep deprived, so not four hours per night or an all-nighter, but if you've only slept five or let's say you're getting an hour or two less than your normal ration of sleep, there's some pretty significant inflammation that occurs that's not good.
您已经描述过，如果您稍微缺乏睡眠，即不是每晚四个小时或通宵，但如果您只睡了五个小时，或者比正常睡眠量少了一两个小时，就会发生一些相当严重的炎症，这并不好。
But I've heard you cover that exercising can actually offset some of that inflammation.
但我听说你说锻炼实际上可以抵消一些炎症。
This answers an important and common question, which is, if I have to pick between sleep and exercise, what do I do?
这回答了一个重要且常见的问题，即如果我必须在睡眠和锻炼之间做出选择，我该怎么办？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it sounds like if it's one night poor sleep, exercise.
听起来如果一晚上睡眠不好，就锻炼一下。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But you don't want to make it a habit.
但你不想让它成为一种习惯。
Do I have that right?
我有这个权利吗？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Right.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
I mean, so this data, a lot of it actually comes from you can cause even acute insulin resistance after a night of sleep deprivation, certainly after-
我的意思是，所以这些数据，其中很多实际上来自你，甚至可以在一夜睡眠不足后导致急性胰岛素抵抗，当然是之后-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
two to three nights of sleep deprivation.
两到三个晚上睡眠不足。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And again, a lot of that's coming down to some of the things we've already talked about.
再说一次，其中很多都归结于我们已经讨论过的一些事情。
But exercise can help basically negate a lot of that.
但锻炼可以从根本上帮助消除很多这种情况。
And I learned that firsthand through experience when I was wearing a continuous glucose monitor, and when I was a new parent.
当我佩戴连续血糖监测仪时，以及当我成为新手父母时，我通过亲身经历了解到了这一点。
Of course, you're not getting enough sleep.
当然，你睡眠不足。
And so I learned it before I actually dove into the science about it.
所以我在真正深入研究它之前就了解了它。
I learned about it through my own data where I wasn't exercising as much and particularly in the first month, really, you're kind of in a cave as a new mom.
我通过自己的数据了解到这一点，当时我锻炼得不多，尤其是在第一个月，真的，作为一个新妈妈，你有点像在山洞里。
You're not really exercising much at all.
你实际上根本没有进行太多锻炼。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Evolution wants the-
进化想要——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
baby to survive.
宝宝要生存。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
You're recovering, too.
你也正在康复。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I mean, childbirth is a very-
我的意思是，生孩子是一件非常-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure
当然可以
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
it's a very traumatic process on the body.
这对身体来说是一个非常痛苦的过程。
And so, I noticed that my glucose response was pre-diabetic, and I was like, "What is going on?" And that's when I started looking into the literature and happened to be around the same time when I was then starting up my, at the time, I was doing spin classes.
所以，我注意到我的葡萄糖反应处于糖尿病前期，我想，“发生了什么事？”就在那时，我开始研究文献，并且恰好在我开始参加动感单车课程的同时。
And then it was very clear to me.
然后我就很清楚了。
It was like, I do these high-intensity interval training classes even just twice a week, and it was almost completely negating what I had seen previously of my fasting glucose being really high, and also my postprandial glucose being higher than usual.
就像，我每周只参加两次高强度间歇训练课程，这几乎完全否定了我之前所看到的我的空腹血糖非常高，而且我的餐后血糖也比平常高。
And so, I looked into the studies, and there's now you can find many studies out there.
因此，我研究了这些研究，现在你可以找到很多研究。
And it really-- I mean, obviously, exercise is one of the best things you can do to improve insulin sensitivity and to also bring glucose into your cells, right?
我的意思是，很明显，锻炼是提高胰岛素敏感性并将葡萄糖带入细胞的最佳方法之一，对吧？
And so that's part of what you were talking about with, oh, you're more insulin sensitive during the morning, least during the evening.
这就是你所说的一部分，哦，你在早上对胰岛素更敏感，至少在晚上。
And I also mentioned that, but guess what?
我也提到过这一点，但你猜怎么着？
There's levers you can pull that change the equation.
您可以拉动一些杠杆来改变方程式。
And exercise is a big one, right?
运动是一件大事，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
If you're exercising, you are becoming more insulin sensitive.
如果您进行锻炼，您的胰岛素就会变得更加敏感。
You're increasing more glucose transporters on your muscle that's causing glucose to go in easier, right?
你的肌肉上增加了更多的葡萄糖转运蛋白，这使得葡萄糖更容易进入，对吧？
So there's lots of ways around some of these rules that we hear about.
因此，有很多方法可以绕过我们听到的一些规则。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But with the sleep loss, it's interesting because people when they don't get sleep, the last thing they want to do is work out.
但对于睡眠不足，这很有趣，因为人们在睡眠不足时最不想做的就是锻炼。
And obviously, you don't want to do the hardest thing, especially if you're really sleep deprived a lot.
显然，你不想做最困难的事情，特别是如果你真的睡眠不足的话。
But it really does help negate the inflammation and the insulin insensitivity that can happen after even just a single night of sleep, and there's studies out there showing that.
但它确实有助于消除炎症和胰岛素不敏感，即使只睡一晚也可能发生这种情况，有研究表明这一点。
And then there's also these longitudinal studies that have been done looking at- So obviously poor sleep is a problem in the United States.
然后还有这些纵向研究——很明显，睡眠质量不佳是美国的一个问题。
I mean, a lot of people are sleeping fewer than seven hours a night.
我的意思是，很多人每晚的睡眠时间不足七小时。
But there's studies out that have looked at people that sleep either shorter, so fewer than seven hours a night, or they're sleeping more than 10.
但有研究发现，人们的睡眠时间要么较短，即每晚睡眠时间少于 7 小时，要么睡眠时间超过 10 小时。
So you don't want to be on either end of the spectrum.
所以你不想处于这两个极端。
And usually like sleeping long, there's other disease states associated with it.
通常，就像睡得太久一样，还有其他与之相关的疾病状态。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But, so people that are sleeping, not getting enough sleep, they have a higher all-cause mortality than people that are getting at least seven to nine hours of sleep.
但是，睡眠不足的人比睡眠至少七到九个小时的人的全因死亡率更高。
And the same for more than 10, they have a higher all-cause mortality than people getting between seven and nine.
对于 10 岁以上的人来说也是如此，他们的全因死亡率高于 7 岁到 9 岁之间的人。
But if people exercise, if they're meeting the physical activity guidelines right now, which is 75 minutes of vigorous intensity exercise and 150 minutes a week of moderate intensity exercise.
但如果人们锻炼身体，如果他们现在符合身体活动指南，即每周 75 分钟的高强度运动和每周 150 分钟的中等强度运动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Well, because the guidelines are helpful, but they're just guidelines because doing the sort of workout that you're doing, working up to doubles and triples and singles on compound lifts, and then doing cardio, like getting your heart rate elevated, and then doing addition to that, and then you're hiking.
嗯，因为这些指南很有帮助，但它们只是指南，因为你要做的是你正在做的那种锻炼，在复合举重上进行双倍、三倍和单倍训练，然后做有氧运动，比如提高你的心率，然后再做一些补充，然后你就开始徒步旅行。
I think the guidelines are a good jumping-off place for people to think about.
我认为这些指南是人们思考的一个很好的起点。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Well, we can talk about that because there's a new study that kind of throws-
好吧，我们可以讨论这个，因为有一项新的研究表明——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
You only-
你只——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
that on the head.
头上的那个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But the point is that if people were exercising within the guideline range, that they basically, if they weren't getting enough sleep, if they were getting fewer than seven hours of sleep per night, that they basically had the same mortality rate as people that were getting enough sleep.
但关键是，如果人们在指导范围内锻炼，那么他们基本上，如果他们没有得到足够的睡眠，如果他们每晚的睡眠时间少于七个小时，那么他们的死亡率基本上与睡眠充足的人相同。
So it's offsetting some of that unhealthy stuff, the insulin resistance, the inflammation that we know can lead to diseases and early mortality.
因此，它可以抵消一些不健康的因素，例如胰岛素抵抗和炎症，我们知道这些因素会导致疾病和过早死亡。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So find the time to exercise, folks.
所以各位，找个时间锻炼一下吧。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But of course, periods of time like after a new child, or a new job, or a particularly stressful time, I don't know any human being, I don't care how driven...
但当然，在生完孩子、找到新工作、或者压力特别大的时期，我不认识任何人，我不在乎有多大的动力......
Okay, there's probably Goggins and Cam Haynes being probably exceptions and a few others.
好吧，戈金斯和卡姆·海恩斯可能是例外，还有其他一些人。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Outliers.
异常值。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Ken Rideout and a few others.
肯·赖德奥特 (Ken Rideout) 和其他一些人。
Everybody else seems to have periods of time where they need to just back off a bit.
其他人似乎都有需要稍微退一步的时候。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know I certainly do, and I feel like I'm doing pretty well for myself despite.
我知道我当然知道，尽管如此，我觉得我自己做得很好。
And I think that it's important that people not hold themselves to a standard that is going to make them sick or injured or miserable beyond...
我认为重要的是，人们不要让自己遵循一个会让他们生病、受伤或痛苦的标准……
Yeah, you also want to continue to enjoy health-promoting activities, right?
是的，您也想继续享受促进健康的活动，对吧？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I mean, you got to say, what's your goal?
我的意思是，你必须说，你的目标是什么？
Your goal is to be healthy, to be happy.
你的目标是健康、快乐。
If you're taking it to this extreme where you're trying to just go to the extreme, like go hard, go home, and you're sacrificing your happiness, too, I mean, that's a problem, right?
如果你把它推向极端，你试图走向极端，比如努力，回家，你也牺牲了你的幸福，我的意思是，这是一个问题，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Because that's part of the equation.
因为这是等式的一部分。
Happiness is part of that healthy equation.
幸福是健康方程式的一部分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Health is a daily and lifelong thing, but sometimes it means taking a day off.
健康是每天、一生的事情，但有时也意味着休息一天。
I think that's what people don't say.
我认为人们不会这么说。
And I think it's in a time when perhaps a lot of people aren't exercising enough, so promoting the no days off thing can be helpful.
我认为现在可能很多人锻炼不足，所以提倡不休息会有所帮助。
But for those that are already forward center of mass, coming off the accelerator can be really useful.
但对于那些已经处于质心前方的人来说，离开加速器可能非常有用。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, I also want to just mention, because we talked about I work out a lot, and I am sort of addicted to it, but not everyone has the time-
嗯，我也想提一下，因为我们谈到我经常锻炼，而且我有点上瘾，但不是每个人都有时间——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
and motivation to go spend an hour block of time working out.
以及花一个小时锻炼的动力。
And this is where I think people can sigh a sigh of relief because there's now so much emerging data that have been coming out over the last decade on these short bursts of physical activity that add up.
我认为人们可以在这方面松一口气，因为过去十年中出现了大量关于这些短暂的身体活动累积的新数据。
They add up, and people aren't really thinking about them, counting towards adding up to their physical activity requirements for the week.
它们加起来，人们并没有真正考虑它们，而是计入本周的身体活动需求。
And so there's a lot of studies now, there's on something called vigorous intermittent lifestyle physical activity, VILPA studies.
所以现在有很多研究，其中有一种叫做剧烈间歇性身体活动的研究，即 VILPA 研究。
Have you heard of those?
你听说过那些吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are these the exercise snacks?
这些是运动零食吗？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
They're unstructured.
它们是非结构化的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
They're unstructured, and not everyone likes the word exercise snacks.
它们是非结构化的，并不是每个人都喜欢“运动零食”这个词。
I kind of like it, but the unstructured exercise, they're the moments in your life where you're taking advantage of everyday situations to get your heart rate up to move.
我有点喜欢它，但是无组织的锻炼是你生活中利用日常情况来提高心率的时刻。
And so that could be, I'm playing with my new puppy, and I'm sprinting around with my new puppy.
所以可能是这样，我正在和我的新小狗玩耍，我正在和我的新小狗一起奔跑。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I'm chasing my grandkid around, playing tag, or my child.
我追着我的孙子、玩捉人游戏，或者追着我的孩子。
I'm sprinting up the stairs to get to my office.
我正跑上楼梯去我的办公室。
I'm running to catch the bus.
我正跑着去赶公共汽车。
I'm moving.
我要搬家了。
And so researchers, and there have been several studies on this now, researchers use accelerometers rather than just relying on these questionnaires, which are, as you know, extremely unreliable.
因此，研究人员，现在已经有几项这方面的研究，研究人员使用加速度计，而不仅仅是依赖这些调查问卷，正如你所知，这些调查问卷非常不可靠。
I mean, it's very hard for people to remember how much exercise.
我的意思是，人们很难记住锻炼了多少。
You're sitting here asking me about my exercise.
你坐在这里问我的锻炼情况。
I mean, there's always so much that you can be accurate when you're trying to recall that.
我的意思是，当你试图回忆时，总是有很多东西可以准确地记住。
So these accelerometers are worn on people's wrists, and they're measuring fast movement, the movement.
因此，这些加速度计戴在人们的手腕上，它们正在测量快速运动。
And so thousands and thousands, hundreds of thousands of participants, there's lots of data now showing that people that are doing these short bursts, at least a minute long, but up to three minutes, where they're moving.
因此，成千上万、数十万的参与者，现在有大量数据显示，人们正在做这些短时间的爆发，至少一分钟长，但最多三分钟，他们正在移动。
I'm saying they're getting their heart rate up.
我是说他们的心率加快了。
They're actually not measuring their heart rate in these studies.
实际上，他们在这些研究中并没有测量他们的心率。
They're moving faster with intent.
他们带着意图走得更快。
They're jogging, of course, there's the cases where they're actually exercising.
当然，他们在慢跑，也有他们实际上在锻炼的情况。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But the short bursts of it, they're doing the things that I just mentioned, and it's having outsize effects on health outcomes.
但在短暂的爆发期间，他们正在做我刚才提到的事情，这对健康结果产生了巨大的影响。
So, for example, individuals that do on the high end, so they're doing three minutes of this short burst of an unstructured type of exercise snack, and they do it three times a day, so it's a total of nine minutes a day.
举个例子，那些做高端运动的人，他们会做三分钟的这种短时间的非结构化运动零食，他们每天做三次，所以每天总共九分钟。
This type of activity, and it's considered more vigorous because of the intent to move, that's more vigorous, even though they're not measuring heart rate.
这种类型的活动，由于有移动的意图，因此被认为更有活力，即使它们没有测量心率，但它也更有活力。
That's associated with a 40% reduction in all-cause mortality, 40% reduction in cancer-related mortality, a 50% reduction in cardiovascular-related mortality.
这与全因死亡率降低 40%、癌症相关死亡率降低 40%、心血管相关死亡率降低 50% 相关。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Nine minutes a day.
每天九分钟。
And this is even in people that don't identify as exercisers, so they're not the kind of people like you and I that go and intentionally set out time to go to the gym.
即使那些不认为自己是锻炼者的人也是如此，所以他们不是像你我这样特意安排时间去健身房的人。
The people that just- They're doing those things, right?
那些人——他们正在做那些事情，对吧？
They're playing with their grandkids or their kids or their puppies or whatever.
他们正在和他们的孙子、孩子、小狗或者其他什么东西一起玩。
And so these moments, they add up.
所以这些时刻，它们加起来。
And I'm citing one study, but it was a dose-dependent effect, even doing three minutes a day.
我引用了一项研究，但它是剂量依赖性的效果，即使每天做三分钟。
There's a study in women showing three and a half minutes a day, they were having pretty profound benefits on all-cause mortality and cancer-related mortality as well.
一项针对女性的研究表明，每天锻炼三分半钟，对降低全因死亡率和癌症相关死亡率也有显着的好处。
And multiple studies now have shown this.
现在多项研究已经证明了这一点。
This is one study after another after another.
这是一项又一项的研究。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It is undeniable that these short moments of getting physically active do add up.
不可否认的是，这些短暂的身体活动确实会累积起来。
And structured exercise snacks can be part of that.
结构化运动零食就是其中的一部分。
Maybe you don't have a puppy, maybe you don't have a kid yet, maybe you work from home and you're not taking these...
也许你没有小狗，也许你还没有孩子，也许你在家工作而你没有带这些......
Maybe your situation's different than what I described, but you can take these moments to do exercise snacks, and that can be a minute long, and it can be-- There's two studies, and I'll talk about one, showing that getting up and doing 10 body weight squats every 45 minutes over a seven-and-a-half-hour workday is better at regulating blood glucose levels than a 30-minute walk.
也许你的情况与我描述的不同，但你可以利用这些时间做运动零食，时间可以是一分钟，而且可以是——有两项研究，我将谈论其中一项，表明在七个半小时的工作日中，每 45 分钟站起来做 10 次自重深蹲，比步行 30 分钟更能调节血糖水平。
Right?
正确的？
So you get up and you do 10 body weight squats.
所以你站起来，做 10 次自重深蹲。
Pretty easy.
很容易。
It's also very good to break up that sedentary time.
打破久坐的时间也很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So being sedentary means you're not moving.
所以久坐意味着你没有动。
That also is an independent risk factor, even if you do exercise, for things like cancer being a big one.
即使您进行锻炼，这也是一个独立的风险因素，例如癌症等重大疾病。
Although I would say if you're doing a lot of exercise, you're doing pretty good.
虽然我会说如果你做了很多运动，你的表现就相当不错了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But I'd just like to mention that as well.
但我也想提一下。
I would say being sedentary is a disease, actually.
我想说，久坐实际上是一种病。
That's something.
那是一件事。
People aren't thinking about it, but...
人们没有想到这一点，但是...
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Even in the absence of what Layne Norton calls energy toxicity?
即使没有莱恩·诺顿所说的能量毒性？
Even if somebody is at maintenance or below maintenance calories, if they're sedentary, that's problematic?
即使有人处于维持热量或低于维持热量，如果他们久坐，那会有问题吗？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
We do have data, for one, measuring cardiorespiratory fitness, which is a marker of cardiovascular health-
我们确实有测量心肺健康的数据，这是心血管健康的标志——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
being physically fit.
身体健康。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Right?
对吗？
Obviously, the gold standard of that would be measuring VO2 max, your maximal oxygen uptake during maximal exercise.
显然，黄金标准是测量最大摄氧量，即最大运动量时的最大摄氧量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
A lot of studies do not actually directly measure VO2 max.
许多研究实际上并没有直接测量最大摄氧量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
They'll do maybe a submaximal treadmill test, or they'll estimate it, right?
他们可能会进行次最大跑步机测试，或者他们会估计它，对吧？
There's a calculation out there you can do, kind of if you wear an Apple Watch or some sort of fitness tracker.
如果您佩戴 Apple Watch 或某种健身追踪器，您可以进行计算。
What they do is, it's looking at the distance that you run and the amount of time it takes, right?
他们所做的是，查看你跑步的距离和所需的时间，对吗？
So, a 12-minute run would be an example.
因此，12 分钟的跑步就是一个例子。
People do that.
人们就是这么做的。
You run as fast as you can and maintain that pace for 12 minutes.
您尽可能快地跑，并保持该配速 12 分钟。
You're not going all out, obviously.
显然，你不会全力以赴。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You see how far you can go.
你看看你能走多远。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And there's a calculation out there that's done to kind of estimate your VO2 max.
有一种计算可以估算您的最大摄氧量。
And so some studies-
所以一些研究——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
or a lot of studies are actually doing sort of an estimation of cardiorespiratory fitness.
或者很多研究实际上正在对心肺健康进行某种评估。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So cardiorespiratory fitness is really important, I think, for marking your health and longevity.
因此，我认为，心肺健康对于标志着您的健康和长寿非常重要。
And if you have a low cardiorespiratory fitness, most of the times you are not physically active, right?
如果您的心肺健康水平较低，那么大多数时候您都不会进行身体活动，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And there are studies showing that if you don't have any diagnosable diseases, so you're not insulin resistant, you don't have cardiovascular disease, you don't have cancer, all that stuff, right?
有研究表明，如果你没有任何可诊断的疾病，那么你就没有胰岛素抵抗，你就没有心血管疾病，你就没有癌症，所有这些东西，对吗？
You're not obese, but you have a low cardiorespiratory fitness, it is as bad or worse in terms of your all-cause mortality, predicting mortality, than having cardiovascular disease or smoking or having hypertension or these things that we know that are really bad for health, right?
你并不肥胖，但你的心肺健康状况不佳，就你的全因死亡率、预测死亡率而言，它与患有心血管疾病、吸烟或高血压或这些我们知道对健康确实有害的事情一样糟糕或更糟，对吧？
So being sedentary, as I'm saying it's a low cardiorespiratory fitness, I guess it's not exactly correct.
因此，正如我所说的久坐不动是心肺健康水平较低，我想这并不完全正确。
I'm stretching it a little bit.
我稍微拉伸一下。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But cardiorespiratory fitness is a marker of, I would say, fitness.
但我想说，心肺健康是健康的标志。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And so that's why I think being sedentary is a disease.
这就是为什么我认为久坐是一种疾病。
And people with a low cardiorespiratory fitness, if you go anywhere above that, from low to low normal, that's associated with a two-year increase in life expectancy.
对于心肺健康水平较低的人来说，如果你的水平高于正常水平，从低水平到低水平，那么预期寿命就会延长两年。
If you go from low to high normal, that's almost a three-year increase in life expectancy.
如果从低正常值到高正常值，预期寿命几乎增加了三年。
And if you go up to high, then you're talking about a five-year increase in life expectancy compared to where you were at with low.
如果你上升到最高水平，那么你所说的预期寿命将比最低水平延长五年。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But again-
但话又说回来——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
I'm not talking about VO2 max, I'm talking about cardiorespiratory fitness.
我不是在谈论最大摄氧量，而是在谈论心肺健康。
And it's really important.
这真的很重要。
Here's another reason why I think that it's really bad.
这是我认为这真的很糟糕的另一个原因。
So these studies were done...
所以完成了这些研究...
By the way, cardiorespiratory fitness is improved by aerobic exercise in general.
顺便说一下，一般来说，有氧运动可以改善心肺健康。
That's great.
那太棒了。
And then, if you add in high-intensity interval training in their mix, that also really helps because there are some people that don't respond necessarily to just doing cardiovascular.
然后，如果你在他们的组合中加入高强度间歇训练，这也确实有帮助，因为有些人不一定会对心血管训练有反应。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A slow, steady state.
缓慢、稳定的状态。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
About 40% of people don't respond.
大约 40% 的人没有回应。
So mixing in the high intensity is good.
所以高强度的混合是好的。
If you're physically active and doing that, that's great.
如果您身体活跃并且这样做，那就太好了。
If you're doing these short bursts of physical activity, also good because it's a little bit of a high-intensity exercise, right?
如果您正在进行这些短时间的身体活动，也很好，因为这是一种高强度的运动，对吗？
A minute running around chasing your grandkid or your puppy or your child.
一分钟跑来跑去追你的孙子、你的小狗或你的孩子。
That's a HIIT session.
这就是 HIIT 训练。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or taking the stairs.
或者走楼梯。
That's amazing.
太棒了。
I was traveling with my team.
我和我的团队一起旅行。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Sprinting up the stairs.
冲上楼梯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, sprinting up the stairs, or if you're carrying a lot of luggage in the airport, going up the stairs or down the stairs.
哦，冲刺上楼梯，或者如果你在机场提着很多行李，上楼梯或下楼梯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's wild.
它很狂野。
When you go to the airport, I like to notice this.
当你去机场时，我喜欢注意到这一点。
Nobody takes the stairs.
没有人走楼梯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Down or up.
向下或向上。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The escalators are there.
自动扶梯就在那里。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It's the luggage.
这是行李。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm always like, "Oh, there's a great opportunity to get some extra steps and some extra work." But I realize that's me.
我总是说，“哦，这是一个很好的机会来获得一些额外的步骤和一些额外的工作。”但我意识到那就是我。
But it's striking.
但这是惊人的。
And if you're in DC ever, they have these long stairwells that go up from the public transport, and that's a workout.
如果你在华盛顿，他们有这些从公共交通工具上去的长楼梯间，这是一种锻炼。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Carrying your luggage.
拎着行李。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm always like, "Oh, free workout."
我总是说，“哦，免费锻炼。”
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I get it in my day.
我在我的日子里得到了它。
It sucks to arrive a little bit more sweaty than you would otherwise, but I just think if this were an experiment and we were looking at mice and we were videotaping from above, I always think to myself, "Which mouse am I going to be?" All the mice are going up the automatic elevator.
到达时比平时出更多汗是很糟糕的，但我只是想，如果这是一个实验，我们观察老鼠并从上面录像，我总是对自己说，“我会成为哪只老鼠？”所有的老鼠都在自动电梯上。
It makes sense.
这是有道理的。
And then why they would want to do that, but these opportunities for exercise are clearly there.
然后为什么他们想要这样做，但这些锻炼的机会显然是存在的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I feel like this is also...
我感觉这也是...
I would be remiss if I didn't do a quick shout-out to Steve Magness.
如果我没有快速向史蒂夫·马格尼斯大声喊叫，那就是我的失职。
Do you ever see his content?
你看过他的内容吗？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I've interacted with him, yeah.
我和他有过交流，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I've never met him, but people should-
我从未见过他，但人们应该——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
On Twitter.
在推特上。
I've interacted with him on X.
我在X上和他互动过。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
People should, I think, give him a follow.
我认为人们应该关注他。
He's a very accomplished runner in his past, a running coach, I believe, as well, and a scientist, and I think has the best take on sort of measuring VO2 max.
他过去是一位非常有成就的跑步运动员，我相信他也是一位跑步教练，也是一位科学家，我认为他在测量最大摄氧量方面拥有最好的见解。
It's kind of interesting.
这有点有趣。
He has a theory which I think is strongly backed that most measures of VO2 max are not measures of VO2 max at all, but one of the best measures of cardiorespiratory fitness is how fast can you run a mile?
他有一个我认为得到强烈支持的理论，即大多数最大摄氧量测量根本不是最大摄氧量测量，但心肺健康的最佳测量之一是你能跑多快一英里？
And he says, "People are generally surprised how easy the easy stuff should feel and how hard the hard stuff should feel." So I just want to credit Steve for saying that.
他说，“人们通常会惊讶于简单的事情感觉起来多么容易，而困难的事情感觉起来又如此困难。”所以我只想感谢史蒂夫说的这句话。
So I try and keep that in mind around my cardio and do some high...
所以我试着在我的有氧运动中牢记这一点，并做一些高...
I do less of what you do, I confess.
我承认，我做的事情比你做的要少。
Some high-intensity interval training, Tabata-type stuff, and then a lot of walks, a lot of hikes.
一些高强度间歇训练，Tabata 式的训练，然后大量散步、远足。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I haven't formally measured my VO2 max in a while, but I think he just nails it with that because I think people think the 30-minute jog on the treadmill where you get sweaty and you're like, "Ah" like that's accomplishing what you want, but actually there's a much easier path to better health, which is what you do and more or less what Steve is describing as well.
我已经有一段时间没有正式测量我的最大摄氧量了，但我认为他只是用这个来确定这一点，因为我认为人们认为在跑步机上慢跑 30 分钟，你会出汗，你会说，“啊”，这样就实现了你想要的目标，但实际上有一条更容易的途径来改善健康，这就是你所做的，或多或少也是史蒂夫所描述的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Does that square with your experience?
这符合你的经验吗？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah, I think so.
是的，我想是的。
I do mix in quite a bit of probably more high intensity interval training.
我确实混合了相当多的可能更高强度的间歇训练。
But if I felt like it was like if I didn't feel good-
但如果我感觉就像我感觉不舒服一样——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
I would toggle down the pedal.
我会踩下踏板。
I wouldn't keep going on it.
我不会继续这样下去。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So I think you have to, again, just listen to your body.
所以我认为你必须再次倾听你的身体。
You don't want to overdo things.
你不想做得太过分。
There are people out there that are really endurance athletes that are...
有些人是真正的耐力运动员……
That's not me.
那不是我。
I'm a committed exerciser.
我是一名坚定的锻炼者。
I'm not necessarily an athlete.
我不一定是运动员。
But yeah, so there's different, I think, levels here.
但是，是的，所以我认为这里有不同的水平。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Steve is obviously athlete.
史蒂夫显然是一名运动员。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Anyway, I've learned from him around this topic.
不管怎样，我从他那里学到了关于这个话题的知识。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's been helpful.
这很有帮助。
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。
Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.
去年，在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我成为了 Function 成员。
Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health.
Function 提供 100 多项高级实验室测试，为您提供整个身体健康状况的关键快照。
This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more.
此快照为您提供有关心脏健康、激素健康、免疫功能、营养水平等方面的见解。
They've also recently added tests for toxins, such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics, and tests for PFAS, or forever chemicals.
他们最近还增加了毒素测试，例如有害塑料中的 BPA 暴露，以及 PFAS 或永久化学物质的测试。
Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas.
Function 不仅提供对您的身心健康至关重要的 100 多种生物标记物的测试，而且还分析这些结果并提供相关领域专家的顶级医生的见解。
For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood.
例如，在我第一次使用 Function 进行测试时，我发现我的血液中汞含量升高。
Function not only helped me detect that, but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, N-acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification.
功能不仅帮助我发现了这一点，还为我提供了如何最好地降低汞含量的见解，其中包括限制我的金枪鱼摄入量，我一直在吃大量金枪鱼，同时还努力多吃绿叶蔬菜并补充 NAC、N-乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都可以支持谷胱甘肽的产生和解毒。
And I should say, by taking a second Function test, that approach worked.
我应该说，通过进行第二次功能测试，这种方法奏效了。
Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important.
全面的血液检测至关重要。
There's so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test.
有很多与您的心理和身体健康相关的事情只能通过血液检查来检测。
The problem is blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated.
问题是血液检测一直非常昂贵且复杂。
In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost.
相比之下，Function 的简单性和成本水平给我留下了深刻的印象。
It is very affordable.
这是非常实惠的。
As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.
因此，我决定加入他们的科学顾问委员会，我很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。
If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Function，可以访问 functionhealth.com/huberman。
Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people.
目前，Function 的等候名单已超过 250,000 人。
But they're offering early access to Huberman Podcast listeners.
但他们正在为 Huberman 播客听众提供早期访问服务。
Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.
同样，可以通过 functionhealth.com/huberman 提前访问 Function。
I want to ask you about creatine.
我想问你关于肌酸的事。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm 50.
我50岁了。
I started taking weight training and running when I was 16 maybe.
我大概在 16 岁的时候就开始进行举重训练和跑步。
Yeah.
是的。
And I started taking creatine because back then I was skinny, I wanted to put on muscle.
我开始服用肌酸，因为当时我很瘦，我想增加肌肉。
I think creatine was sort of first discussed or released back then when I was maybe 18 or something like that.
我认为肌酸第一次被讨论或发布是在我 18 岁左右的时候。
18, 19.
18、19。
So I've been taking it a long, long time.
所以我已经坚持了很长一段时间了。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Forever, yeah.
永远，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Five to 10 grams.
五到十克。
But the original protocol, which nobody does anymore, but I confess I still do it because I enjoy it, was to take five grams three to five times per day.
但最初的方案是每天服用三到五次，每次服用五克，现在已经没有人这样做了，但我承认我仍然这样做，因为我喜欢它。
There was this loading phase.
有一个加载阶段。
And you would mix it with a little bit of grape juice because the idea was you were supposed to spike your insulin and then you get more into the muscles.
你可以将它与一点葡萄汁混合，因为这个想法是你应该增加你的胰岛素，然后你会更多地进入肌肉。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then you had a maintenance dose, which was five grams per day.
然后你服用维持剂量，每天五克。
And the idea back then was that you need to do a washout every 20 weeks or so, where you just stop taking it, you urinate out a bunch of water, and then you reload.
当时的想法是，你需要每 20 周左右进行一次冲洗，你只需停止服药，排掉一堆水，然后重新装药。
And I confess, I've continued to do this minus the grape juice, but occasionally I'll do the grape juice thing.
我承认，我继续这样做，不加葡萄汁，但偶尔我会做葡萄汁的事情。
I don't think there's any real merit to the loading phase, maintenance phase idea.
我认为加载阶段、维护阶段的想法没有任何真正的优点。
But back then and still now, I feel like creatine has made me feel great.
但无论是当时还是现在，我都觉得肌酸让我感觉很棒。
Stronger.
更强。
I wasn't aware of the cognitive benefits.
我没有意识到认知上的好处。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
They weren't being studied back then.
那时还没有研究它们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They weren't being studied back then.
那时还没有研究它们。
But what are your thoughts on why creatine suddenly has become this banner supplement.
但是您对为什么肌酸突然成为这种标志性补充剂有何看法？
It's like supplement of the year.
相当于当年的补品。
We should start a supplement of the year thing, right?
我们应该开始补一下年度的事情吧？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I know.
我知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For a while, I think vitamin D and melatonin came first.
有一段时间，我认为维生素 D 和褪黑激素是第一位的。
We'll have to figure out what years those were.
我们必须弄清楚那是哪几年。
Then I feel like creatine got supplement of the year for 2026, unless something else comes along.
然后我觉得肌酸成为了 2026 年的年度补充剂，除非有其他的东西出现。
So creatine, supplement of the year, 2026, even though it's been around for a long, long time.
所以肌酸，2026 年的年度补充剂，尽管它已经存在了很长很长时间。
What do you think happened?
你认为发生了什么？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Well, so first I want to talk about your loading phase, and that was really for the studies that were being done.
好吧，首先我想谈谈您的加载阶段，这实际上是针对正在进行的研究。
Because if you're taking five grams a day of creatine, it takes about three to four weeks for your muscle creatine stores to become saturated.
因为如果您每天服用五克肌酸，那么您的肌肉肌酸储备大约需要三到四个星期才能达到饱和。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And researchers aren't going to do a study where they wait that long.
研究人员不会等那么久才进行研究。
So the loading phase really was just-
所以加载阶段真的只是-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, so that's what inspired it.
哦，这就是它的灵感来源。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It's in this isolated bubble of in the experimental protocol.
它就在实验方案中的这个孤立的气泡中。
But in the real world-
但在现实世界中——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it
明白了
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
you have three weeks.
你有三个星期的时间。
Or if you're an athlete-
或者如果你是一名运动员-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
and you hadn't taken the creatine, you don't have your creatine stores up, and you have to quickly, rapidly-
你还没有服用肌酸，你没有储存肌酸，你必须快速、快速——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it
明白了
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
get your stores up.
让你的商店起来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I was just amazed at how quickly it worked.
我只是惊讶于它的工作速度如此之快。
I might be a hyper-responder, but I legitimately put on...
我可能是一个反应过度的人，但我合理地穿上了......
I realize some of it was water, or most of it was water, but somewhere between probably four and eight pounds of-
我意识到其中一些是水，或者大部分是水，但大概在四到八磅之间——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Of lean?
瘦的？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of water in the muscle mass.
肌肉块中的水。
I don't want to call it lean mass because-
我不想称其为瘦体重，因为-
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's water in the muscle.
这是肌肉中的水。
But I was like, "Oh my goodness, this is crazy." And then people thought maybe it was a steroid.
但我当时想，“天哪，这太疯狂了。”然后人们认为它可能是类固醇。
It's not a steroid.
它不是类固醇。
Maybe it's bad for your kidneys.
也许这对你的肾脏不好。
Turns out it's safe for your kidneys and most everyone.
事实证明，它对您的肾脏和大多数人都是安全的。
Pretty remarkable molecule.
非常了不起的分子。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Obviously creatine is stored as creatine phosphate in our cells.
显然，肌酸以磷酸肌酸的形式储存在我们的细胞中。
We make To some degree, between one to three grams of creatine a day.
在某种程度上，我们每天产生一到三克肌酸。
Our liver, our brain also makes it.
我们的肝脏、我们的大脑也能做到这一点。
It's used to make energy.
它被用来制造能量。
And so your muscles, if you're working out, you're really consuming a lot of energy, right?
所以你的肌肉，如果你在锻炼的话，你真的消耗了大量的能量，对吗？
It's very energetically demanding.
这对精力的要求非常高。
So having the creatine stores higher in your muscle is beneficial because one, you're going to be able to increase your training volume, right?
因此，肌肉中肌酸的储存量较高是有益的，因为一方面，您将能够增加训练量，对吗？
So it's not like creatine is anabolic in the sense that protein or amino acids are, right?
所以肌酸不像蛋白质或氨基酸那样具有合成代谢作用，对吗？
It's not directly affecting muscle protein synthesis.
它不直接影响肌肉蛋白质的合成。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It's just helping you train more, getting more reps in.
它只是帮助您进行更多训练，获得更多次数。
Whatever it is, your training volume's going up, and because your training volume's going up, then you're obviously putting more stress on your muscles, which is going to lead to increased muscle protein synthesis.
不管是什么，你的训练量都会增加，并且因为你的训练量增加，那么你显然会对肌肉施加更大的压力，这将导致肌肉蛋白质合成增加。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
嗯嗯，嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And obviously there's water probably as well.
显然也可能有水。
That said, you asked me what happened.
也就是说，你问我发生了什么事。
So I got interested in creatine back in 20...
所以我在 20 岁时就对肌酸产生了兴趣......
When I started basically weight training.
当我开始基本上进行重量训练时。
Obviously, I'd heard about it forever, never took it, and as I started to get into resistance training, I was like, "I better start taking this." I'm like in this world now, and started doing some research and taking it.
显然，我一直听说过它，从未服用过它，当我开始进行阻力训练时，我想，“我最好开始服用它。”我现在就像在这个世界上一样，开始做一些研究并接受它。
So I was taking the five grams a day-
所以我每天服用五克-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
because that's really what most of the studies show.
因为这确实是大多数研究所表明的。
Creatine monohydrate, that's the most well-researched form of creatine.
一水肌酸，这是研究最深入的肌酸形式。
And I was taking five grams a day because I was interested in improving my training volume and getting the benefits of it, right?
我每天服用 5 克，因为我有兴趣提高训练量并从中受益，对吗？
And then I had Darren Cando on the podcast.
然后我在播客上邀请了达伦·坎多（Darren Cando）。
That was in 2024, I think it was.
我认为那是 2024 年。
And once I had started getting into the creatine research, the brain stuff has been coming out over the past few years.
当我开始进行肌酸研究时，大脑的东西在过去几年里就已经出现了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And that's, for me, become very interesting.
对我来说，这变得非常有趣。
I remember the first time I heard about it years ago.
我记得几年前我第一次听说这个事情。
It was like, oh, it's helping improve cognitive function in older people.
就像，哦，它有助于改善老年人的认知功能。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, the phosphocreatine system seems to be somewhat biased towards forebrain structures.
是的，磷酸肌酸系统似乎有点偏向于前脑结构。
Obviously, it's in lots of brain areas-
显然，它存在于大脑的很多区域——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but that there might be a heavier reliance on it for brain areas that are associated with strategic planning and-
但与战略规划相关的大脑区域可能会更依赖它——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Oh, interesting
哦，有趣
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
working memory and yeah.
工作记忆，是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Interesting.
有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you were to sort of just map the sort of density of usage of the phosphocreatine system, you'd see a frontal bias for sure.
如果您只是绘制磷酸肌酸系统的使用密度图，您肯定会看到额叶偏差。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Well, anyways, that's kind of where my interest in-
好吧，无论如何，这就是我的兴趣所在——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
kind of diving deeper.
有点潜得更深。
Anything that's helping the brain is interesting to me-
任何对大脑有帮助的东西对我来说都很有趣-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
as I know it to you as well.
据我所知，你也知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And so I learned a lot from this podcast I did with Darren Cando.
因此，我从与达伦·坎多 (Darren Cando) 合作的播客中学到了很多东西。
He researches creatine and collaborates with a lot of different researchers that are doing research on the brain and muscle and the bone.
他研究肌酸，并与许多不同的研究人员合作，研究大脑、肌肉和骨骼。
Turns out it's beneficial for the bone as well.
事实证明它对骨骼也有好处。
But the brain, it's interesting that we also make creatine in the brain, so it's kind of like the muscle, right?
但是大脑，有趣的是我们也在大脑中产生肌酸，所以它有点像肌肉，对吧？
If you take creatine and you don't work out, you're not going to get any increase in lean mass, right?
如果你服用肌酸但不锻炼，你的瘦体重就不会增加，对吗？
It's not going to do much of anything because you're not putting in the work.
它不会做任何事情，因为你没有投入工作。
I think the same goes with the brain as well, where it's like researchers started to find out that while you can't just take creatine and it's going to enhance cognitive function, it's in the background of stressing the brain, right?
我认为大脑也是如此，就像研究人员开始发现，虽然你不能只服用肌酸并且它会增强认知功能，但它会给大脑带来压力，对吗？
You're stressing your muscles by workout.
您通过锻炼给肌肉施加了压力。
Same goes for the brain.
大脑也是如此。
It's like in these situations of stress, whether that's sleep deprivation, whether it's a traumatic brain injury.
就像在这些压力情况下，无论是睡眠不足，还是脑外伤。
I would argue there's a lot of psychological stress, depression, constantly using your brain, like you and I right now in this conversation.
我认为有很多心理压力、抑郁，不断地使用你的大脑，就像你和我现在在这次谈话中一样。
We're learning, we're thinking.
我们在学习，我们在思考。
It is stressful on the brain, right?
这会给大脑带来压力，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
嗯嗯，嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So, I am obviously speculating here and I'm extrapolating, right?
所以，我显然是在猜测和推断，对吧？
I'm not saying that there's studies showing that, but it does seem as though that that's when creatine seems to shine in the brain.
我并不是说有研究表明这一点，但似乎正是在那时肌酸似乎在大脑中闪耀。
And you might go, "Well, your brain makes it." And it's true.
你可能会说，“好吧，你的大脑做到了。”这是真的。
Your brain does make...
你的大脑确实使...
Again, it's like, I think, between one to three grams or something.
再说一次，我想，大约是一到三克之类的。
I'm not exactly sure how much, but it makes its own creatine.
我不太清楚有多少，但它自己产生肌酸。
And it's kind of resistant to taking up the creatine that you're supplementing with, particularly because, for one, the muscle is very greedy.
而且它对吸收你补充的肌酸有一定的抵抗力，特别是因为，一方面，肌肉非常贪婪。
So when you're getting to that five gram range, if you're working out in particular, right, your muscles are kind of consuming that because they're very greedy for it, right?
因此，当您达到五克范围时，如果您正在特别锻炼，对吧，您的肌肉会消耗它，因为它们非常贪婪，对吧？
And there have now been, I think, a handful of studies showing that when you start to get above that...
我认为，现在已经有一些研究表明，当你开始超越这一点时......
There was a study out of Germany showing this, and it's a small study.
德国的一项研究表明了这一点，而且这是一项小型研究。
This needs to be replicated.
这需要复制。
This is all new, emerging data.
这些都是新出现的数据。
But that study showed that once you start to get to 10 grams, then if you look by MRI, you can start to see that creatine levels are increasing in certain brain regions, and perhaps in the brain regions that you were talking about.
但这项研究表明，一旦你开始达到 10 克，那么如果你通过 MRI 检查，你可以开始看到某些大脑区域的肌酸水平正在增加，也许是你所说的大脑区域。
And they're going higher than what you would get from just your brain normally making its own creatine.
而且它们的含量比你的大脑正常情况下自己产生的肌酸要高。
So the 10 grams of creatine a day, which is now what my baseline is, is based off of that.
因此，每天 10 克肌酸（现在是我的基线）就是以此为基础的。
But there's studies now showing that if you are in this sort of stressed state, your brain is stressed, like for sleep deprivation, for example.
但现在有研究表明，如果你处于这种压力状态，你的大脑就会受到压力，例如睡眠不足。
You're sleep deprived for 21 hours, and your brain's not working very good after not sleeping for 21 hours, right?
你21小时睡眠不足，21小时不睡觉你的大脑就不太运转了，对吧？
Obviously when I travel internationally, I never really sleep good on an international flight.
显然，当我出国旅行时，我在国际航班上从来没有真正睡过好觉。
And so if you were to come find me after that flight, I'd be not working very good, right, cognitively.
因此，如果你在那次飞行之后来找我，我的认知能力就不会很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You and everybody else.
你和其他人。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Well, some people can sleep great on a plane, but I'm not one of those people.
嗯，有些人可以在飞机上睡得很好，但我不是其中之一。
So there have now been at least one study showing that if you give someone, it's something like 0.35 grams per kilogram body weight of creatine, which comes out to a lot.
现在至少有一项研究表明，如果你给某人提供每公斤体重 0.35 克的肌酸，效果会很大。
It's like 20, 25.
好像是20、25。
It depends on your body weight, right?
这取决于你的体重，对吗？
20, 25 grams-
20、25克-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
perhaps even more.
也许更多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm 100 kilograms.
我有100公斤。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a lot of creatine.
这是大量的肌酸。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So you would be a lot.
所以你会很多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So for me-
所以对我来说——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
it's more like 20, 25 grams, right?
大概是20、25克吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But if you give individuals that high dose in that sleep deprived state, that they're cognitively not only performing Normal, but they're performing better than their baseline.
但如果你在睡眠不足的状态下给予个体如此高的剂量，他们的认知能力不仅表现正常，而且表现得比基线更好。
And that, of course, generated a lot of interest.
当然，这引起了很大的兴趣。
There have been studies coming out since then showing that, okay, if you give older adults with mild cognitive impairment, perhaps mild early-stage Alzheimer's disease, again, 20 grams, you're giving them in the 20 gram range of creatine, it's improving their cognitive function.
从那时起就有研究表明，好吧，如果你给患有轻度认知障碍（也许是轻度早期阿尔茨海默病）的老年人服用 20 克，你给他们的肌酸含量在 20 克范围内，这会改善他们的认知功能。
Why is that?
这是为什么？
Well, creatine is important to make energy, and when your brain cells are stressed out, right, like energetic demand goes up, and if you have more creatine, it's going to make things easier.
嗯，肌酸对于产生能量很重要，当你的脑细胞承受压力时，就像能量需求上升一样，如果你有更多的肌酸，它会让事情变得更容易。
There's also some inflammation that's being generated in that stress state, and it seems as though creatine is also having both an indirect and direct effect on inflammatory processes as well.
在这种压力状态下还会产生一些炎症，肌酸似乎也对炎症过程产生间接和直接的影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
This is all early data.
这都是早期数据。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
More needs to be done, but I think there's enough safety data out there now where it's like, well, it's really not harmful to take 10 grams a day.
还需要做更多的工作，但我认为现在已经有了足够的安全数据，每天服用 10 克确实没有什么害处。
I take 10 grams a day every day.
我每天服用10克。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You spread it out?
你把它摊开来了吗？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I do it in two doses.
我分两剂服用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Some people are very sensitive to a 10 gram dose-
有些人对 10 克剂量非常敏感 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
where they might get a GI irritation effect.
他们可能会受到胃肠道刺激作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It can give some people diarrhea.
它会使一些人腹泻。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Diarrhea.
腹泻。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Yeah.
是的。
So the very scientific way but-
所以非常科学的方法但是-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
so I do spread it out, and I don't take it at night.
所以我会把它分散开，晚上也不服用。
I like to take mine in the morning.
我喜欢早上服用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And I don't know, Andrew, this might be a placebo.
我不知道，安德鲁，这可能是安慰剂。
I feel like I'm constantly in a stressed-- My brain is under a lot of stress.
我觉得我一直处于压力之中——我的大脑承受着很大的压力。
I'm constantly learning.
我不断学习。
I'm reading papers.
我正在看报纸。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And like I said, I'm extrapolating here.
就像我说的，我在这里进行推断。
This isn't sleep deprivation.
这不是睡眠不足。
That's obviously a much more extreme type of stress.
这显然是一种更加极端的压力。
But I have noticed that taking my 10 grams, going from five to 10, really does seem to affect my brain functioning later in the day, where I seem to keep going better, where I-
但我注意到，服用 10 克，从 5 克增加到 10 克，似乎确实影响了我当天晚些时候的大脑功能，我似乎一直在进步，我-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great
太棒了
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
am not getting as tired.
我没那么累了。
And it could be placebo, which is fine.
它可能是安慰剂，这很好。
Like I said, I am fine with placebo effects.
就像我说的，我对安慰剂效应很满意。
As long as what I'm ingesting is not actually bad for you-
只要我摄入的东西实际上对你没有坏处-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
placebo's fine with me.
安慰剂对我来说没问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But it is working for me.
但这对我有用。
When I travel, I do, when I'm going to the East Coast.
当我旅行时，当我要去东海岸时，我会这样做。
I'm on the West Coast, so when I go anywhere and I have to give a talk early in the morning and I never sleep good in a hotel, I'm always sleep deprived.
我在西海岸，所以当我去任何地方时，我必须一大早做演讲，而且我在酒店从来没有睡过好觉，我总是睡眠不足。
I don't know that a time that I haven't been traveling and I'm going to start traveling with my pillow like you do, because that's brilliant, because that's one of my problems.
我不知道我没有旅行过的那段时间，我会像你一样开始带着枕头旅行，因为那太棒了，因为这是我的问题之一。
But there's many problems in hotel rooms that lead to me not sleeping as good, right?
但是酒店房间有很多问题导致我睡得不好，对吧？
So I take 20, sometimes 25 grams of creatine in those situations, and it's not all the time.
因此，在这种情况下，我会服用 20 克，有时是 25 克肌酸，但并非总是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But it seems to help me again.
但它似乎又帮助了我。
And like I said, I'm okay with placebo, which is fine, but we do have some evidence that it might.
就像我说的，我对安慰剂没意见，这很好，但我们确实有一些证据表明它可能。
And I think this is kind of where people are already interested in creatine, and so when you start to go, well, maybe it's going to be beneficial for the brain.
我认为这就是人们已经对肌酸感兴趣的地方，所以当你开始服用时，好吧，也许它会对大脑有益。
If it's going to improve cognitive function, that's really something that people are interested in.
如果它能改善认知功能，那确实是人们感兴趣的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Now, again, I don't know that it's like if you're just some young, healthy person, you're getting your sleeping well, you're exercising, everything's great.
现在，我再说一遍，我不知道如果你只是一个年轻、健康的人，你的睡眠质量很好，你正在锻炼，一切都很好。
And I mostly sleep well and exercise great.
我大部分时间都睡得很好，锻炼也很好。
I'm extrapolating here, but Alzheimer's disease on the extreme end, TBI also on the extreme end, that's real-time aging, right?
我在这里推断，但阿尔茨海默病处于极端，TBI 也处于极端，这就是实时衰老，对吗？
And there's some evidence it may be helpful for that as well.
有一些证据表明它也可能对此有所帮助。
There's been some studies with children looking at creatine supplementation after a TBI, and it seems to help with their recovery.
有一些研究针对儿童在脑外伤后补充肌酸，这似乎有助于他们的康复。
I am probably experiencing brain aging, so I'm just kind of-
我可能正在经历大脑老化，所以我只是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm going to interrupt there.
我要打断一下。
I don't think so.
我不这么认为。
I'm not trying to just be complimentary.
我并不是想只是恭维。
I paid close attention to the data, and it seems like in certain fields, like math and physics, that people tend to peak with their contributions early.
我密切关注这些数据，似乎在某些领域，比如数学和物理，人们的贡献往往很早就达到顶峰。
There's a reason why the Fields Medal is only given to people, like I think it's 40 or younger.
菲尔兹奖只颁发给 40 岁或以下的人，这是有原因的。
My dad's a physicist, so he can check me on this one.
我爸爸是一位物理学家，所以他可以检查我的情况。
But biologists, at least the ones I know that took good care of themselves, they're known to make great discoveries, be cognitively sharp, intellectually strong, well into their 70s and 80s.
但生物学家，至少是我认识的那些照顾好自己的生物学家，众所周知，他们能做出伟大的发现，认知敏锐，智力强大，一直到70多岁和80多岁。
Torsten Wiesel, co-recipient of the Nobel Prize for brain plasticity and vision, he's still alive, and I think he still runs.
托斯顿·维塞尔（Torsten Wiesel），诺贝尔大脑可塑性和视觉奖共同获得者，他还活着，我认为他还在跑步。
He's in his late 90s, and he paints and he's sharp.
他已经九十多岁了，画画很敏锐。
So I made a point to only interrupt here.
所以我特意只在这里打断一下。
People can check the data on the previous portions of the podcast, but then just say, I actually think that cognitively, I'm using biologists as an example, it's possible in aspects of life where you're building a base of data to pull from, which is what biology really is, it's just an example here.
人们可以检查播客前面部分的数据，但我实际上认为，从认知角度来说，我以生物学家为例，在生活的各个方面，你可以建立一个数据基础来提取数据，这就是生物学的真正含义，这只是一个例子。
That to get cognitively stronger and stronger with age.
随着年龄的增长，认知能力会变得越来越强。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Right.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's a theory, but I see you as that.
有一个理论，但我是这么看你的。
And again, I'm not just saying it to be complimentary, although it is a compliment.
再说一次，我说这句话并不是为了赞美，尽管这是一种赞美。
It seems like you're picking up steam.
看来你正在恢复活力。
You're thinking about things.
你正在思考一些事情。
You're not forgetting things from way back when.
你不会忘记很久以前的事情。
You're building on the concepts and knowledge from way back when.
您正在建立很久以前的概念和知识。
So I find it reassuring that biologists, in particular, seem to have this up and to the right trajectory for cognition.
因此，令我感到欣慰的是，生物学家似乎已经将这一点推向了正确的认知轨道。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It's interesting.
这很有趣。
My late mentor, Dr. Bruce Ames-
我已故的导师布鲁斯·艾姆斯博士-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
was every bit of that.
就是这一切。
He passed away a little over a year ago.
他一年多前去世了。
He was 96.
他96岁了。
But he claimed some of his best work was done in his late 80s.
但他声称自己最好的一些作品是在 80 多岁的时候完成的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
You know where-
你知道在哪里-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You don't see that in math or physics.
你在数学或物理中看不到这一点。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So it's interesting.
所以这很有趣。
And I don't know exactly the difference.
我不知道具体的区别。
I don't know how much learning goes into math and physics as you're-
我不知道你在数学和物理方面学到了多少知识-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't know
我不知道
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
I just don't know.
我只是不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't either.
我也不。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But with biology, we're constantly learning new things and reading new papers, and I think even just the novelty of learning new things, that's brain-derived neurotrophic factor, right?
但在生物学中，我们不断学习新事物并阅读新论文，我认为即使只是学习新事物的新颖性，这也是脑源性神经营养因子，对吗？
You're increasing synaptic connections and neuroplasticity-
你正在增加突触连接和神经可塑性-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
and you're keeping your brain younger in that way, too, right?
通过这种方式你也可以让你的大脑保持年轻，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So I think the learning process-
所以我认为学习过程——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
is super important, whether it's biology or whatever you're passionate about, right?
非常重要，无论是生物学还是任何你热衷的领域，对吧？
Like you learn new languages.
就像你学习新语言一样。
The learning process itself is something that is so important for brain aging as well.
学习过程本身对于大脑老化也非常重要。
And yeah, so I would agree with you.
是的，所以我同意你的观点。
But brain aging, in general, yeah.
但总的来说，大脑老化是的。
I'm obviously chronologically aging, and there is some degree of aging going on in my brain.
显然，我正在按时间顺序衰老，而且我的大脑也在某种程度上衰老。
But so that's, I think, where the creatine craze has come from, is the interest in-- And I've definitely played a role in some of this by-
但我认为，这就是肌酸热潮的来源，是对——而且我肯定在其中一些方面发挥了作用——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
by-
由-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
talking about my experience and being super interested in it.
谈论我的经历并对它非常感兴趣。
Because it's felt good for me, and I've noticed this experience, and this is completely anecdata again.
因为这对我来说感觉很好，而且我注意到了这次经历，这又完全是轶事。
But in addition with the small studies, and they are small.
但除了小型研究之外，它们也很小。
I don't know if you've looked at them, but they're-
我不知道你是否看过它们，但它们是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Subject numbers and yeah
主题编号是的
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
yeah.
是的。
They're small, and you can poke holes in them, and you would be completely okay poking holes because they're small sample sizes.
它们很小，你可以在上面戳洞，而且你完全可以戳洞，因为它们的样本量很小。
But it is kind of a consistent trend line where we're seeing more studies come out and show the same thing.
但这是一种一致的趋势线，我们看到更多的研究结果表明了同样的事情。
And it's like, okay.
就像，好吧。
To a certain point, maybe there's something here.
在某种程度上，也许这里有什么东西。
I think that more research is going to come out on it, and I feel great doing it.
我认为将会有更多的研究出现，我感觉很棒。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And even to the point where if I don't have my 10 grams and it's only five, I'll notice.
即使我没有 10 克，而只有 5 克，我也会注意到。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, yeah?
哦，是吗？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
But again, it could be that placebo, nocebo thing where who knows?
但同样，这可能是安慰剂、反安慰剂，谁知道呢？
Who knows?
谁知道？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But let's just say it is real.
但我们只能说这是真的。
For me, I got to have my 10 grams of creatine for my brain.
对我来说，我必须为我的大脑补充 10 克肌酸。
Who knows?
谁知道？
I may, in five years, be like, "I was wrong." We'll see new data come out.
五年后，我可能会说：“我错了。”我们将看到新数据的出现。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But I don't think so.
但我不这么认为。
I think this is the next...
我想这就是下一个...
A lot of people doing creatine research, it's the new thing.
很多人都在进行肌酸研究，这是一个新事物。
Because there's been a lot of work on exercise physiology and training volume.
因为在运动生理学和训练量方面已经做了很多工作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, the safety data are there, so it's not like they have to get a lot of human subjects clearance.
是的，安全数据已经存在，所以他们不需要获得大量的人类受试者许可。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
The safety data is there.
安全数据就在那里。
The safety data is...
安全数据是...
It's the most well-studied, one of the most well-studied supplements out there, like you said.
正如你所说，它是研究最深入的补充剂之一。
You were taking it when you were 18, and it was-
你18岁时就服用了它，它是-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, ages ago
是的，很久以前
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
studied back then.
当年学过。
Yeah.
是的。
And it's just been studied for all the years that you've been taking it.
在你服用它的这些年里，人们一直在研究它。
So if it was unsafe, we really would know.
因此，如果不安全，我们真的会知道。
And again, I don't want to get into all the data on the safety, but I think that it's pretty solid.
再说一遍，我不想了解有关安全性的所有数据，但我认为它非常可靠。
Now, of course, if you're going to go mainline 50 grams a day, I don't know.
当然，现在我不知道你是否打算每天摄入 50 克主线。
That's a little much.
这有点多了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Someone on the internet will do it.
互联网上有人会这样做。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
There's always the extreme.
总有极端。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People dry...
人干...
What are they dry scoop?
它们是什么干勺？
People have died dry scooping energy drinks.
有人因喝能量饮料而死。
There's always a moron or two out there that are going to take things to the extreme and harm themselves doing something that no one else is dumb enough to do.
总有一两个白痴会把事情推向极端并伤害自己，做一些其他人不会愚蠢到做的事情。
But I think we look at the center of mass for things.
但我认为我们应该关注事物的质心。
As we're talking about creatine, I want to talk about some other supplements.
当我们谈论肌酸时，我想谈谈其他一些补充剂。
But it occurs to me that if there's some data, ideally from animal studies and humans, and something is safe, I think the question nowadays, because of how broadly health and supplement and other kinds of information goes in the world, I think the question that everyone should ask themselves is, okay, do I want to be in the experimental or the control group?
但我突然想到，如果有一些数据，最好来自动物研究和人类，并且某些东西是安全的，我认为现在的问题是，由于健康和补充剂以及其他类型的信息在世界上传播得有多广泛，我认为每个人都应该问自己的问题是，好吧，我想成为实验组还是对照组？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's how I think about it.
我就是这么想的。
So if there's a study about creatine or some new molecule, I'm going to ask you about magnesium in a moment.
因此，如果有一项关于肌酸或某种新分子的研究，我一会儿就会问你关于镁的问题。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I look at the safety margins on magnesium.
我查看了镁的安全裕度。
Okay.
好的。
I'm comfortable with those safety margins.
我对这些安全裕度感到满意。
So that should always be question number one.
所以这应该永远是第一个问题。
And then it's do I want to be in the experimental or the control group?
然后我想加入实验组还是对照组？
And I think that these days, people who are against supplements or against something, they'll say, "Well, the effect isn't nearly as big as you get from exercise." Totally.
我认为现在，那些反对补充剂或反对某些东西的人会说，“嗯，效果并不像运动带来的那么大。”完全。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
But that's not really what we're talking about.
但这并不是我们真正要讨论的。
People love this in the cannabis and alcohol thing.
人们喜欢大麻和酒精。
Whenever I make a point about alcohol or cannabis, they'll say, "Well, alcohol is worse." I'm like, "Yeah.
每当我提出关于酒精或大麻的观点时，他们都会说：“嗯，酒精更糟糕。”我想，“是啊。
And?" These are two separate entities.
还有？”这是两个独立的实体。
So I think that people should just ask themselves, are you comfortable with the safety margins, and do you want to be in the experimental or the control group?
所以我认为人们应该问自己，你对安全裕度感到满意吗？你想加入实验组还是对照组？
And then, of course, there's the can I afford to be in the experimental group if I do something?
当然，如果我做某事，我能承担加入实验组的费用吗？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But those are really the only questions.
但这些确实是唯一的问题。
No one's saying that creatine's better than anything else or worse than anything else.
没有人说肌酸比其他任何东西更好或更差。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But somehow, the messaging gets all messed up, and then all these news articles get generated about what creatine is and it isn't.
但不知何故，消息传递变得一团糟，然后所有这些关于肌酸是什么和不是什么的新闻文章都生成了。
And I find it kind of frustrating because the issue is not whether or not creatine is better than exercise and good sleep.
我觉得这有点令人沮丧，因为问题不在于肌酸是否比运动和良好的睡眠更好。
The question is do you want to be in the experimental or the control group, and can you afford to be in the experimental group?
问题是你想加入实验组还是对照组，你能承担加入实验组的费用吗？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Right.
对。
I like that.
我喜欢这样。
I like that framework, especially if it's like we know it's safe.
我喜欢这个框架，尤其是当我们知道它是安全的时候。
Okay, so I can potentially be in the experimental group because that's question number one.
好的，所以我有可能加入实验组，因为这是第一个问题。
You have to have that answer first, right?
你必须先得到这个答案，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
At least in my book.
至少在我的书中是这样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But yeah.
但是是的。
There's flaws with all sorts of studies, and creatine studies included.
各种研究都存在缺陷，肌酸研究也不例外。
And people make all sorts of claims about it, and you got to tone it down a little bit.
人们对此有各种各样的说法，你必须把它缓和一点。
It's not like the best performance enhancer ever.
它不像有史以来最好的性能增强器。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But it seems pretty good at improving exercise volume recovery as well.
但它似乎在改善运动量恢复方面也很有效。
That's also something that's been shown, and then helping with the stressed-out brain.
这也是已经被证明的东西，可以帮助缓解压力过大的大脑。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
On the basis of our last conversation some years ago on this podcast, I started taking Lovaza, which is, as you know, a prescription omega-3, so very high concentration omega-3, because I was getting it from standard sources.
根据我们几年前在这个播客上的最后一次谈话，我开始服用 Lovaza，正如你所知，这是一种处方 omega-3，非常高浓度的 omega-3，因为我是从标准来源获取它的。
And I thought, well, I'm hitting 50, and up my omega-3, and I want clean omega-3.
我想，好吧，我已经 50 岁了，我的 omega-3 水平也提高了，我想要干净的 omega-3。
I don't want it contaminated with mercury and other things.
我不希望它被汞和其他东西污染。
So I'll take omega-3s in the form of Lovaza.
所以我会服用 Lovaza 形式的 omega-3。
It's available generic form now, so it's pretty inexpensive.
它现在可以使用通用形式，因此非常便宜。
And I have to say, my blood profiles were pretty good, but they improved pretty dramatically when I started taking Lovaza.
我不得不说，我的血液状况非常好，但当我开始服用 Lovaza 时，情况有了显着改善。
So I'm grateful to you for encouraging-
所以我很感谢你的鼓励——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Oh, wow
哦，哇
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the omega-3 path.
omega-3 路径。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Have you ever had an omega-3 index test done?
您做过 omega-3 指数测试吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No.
不。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
To measure the-
测量-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, if it's on the function test, then it would be-
哦，如果是功能测试的话，那就是——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I think it is
我认为是
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
then it's in normal range.
那么就属于正常范围了。
I know it wasn't flagged, but I don't recall what the level was.
我知道它没有被标记，但我不记得级别是多少。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
You want to be in the high index, not the low, right?
你想处于高指数，而不是低指数，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Yes.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Well, obviously if you're taking it, you're not going to be in the low.
好吧，显然如果你接受它，你就不会处于低谷。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Usually it's around two grams a day to get you from low to high.
通常每天大约两克就能让你从低到高。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And I do think that's one of the low-hanging fruits in terms of something powerful and having an outsize effect on your health that people can do that's not that much effort.
我确实认为，这是一种唾手可得的成果，因为它具有强大的功能，并且对您的健康产生巨大影响，人们不需要付出太多努力就可以做到。
It's not like exercise and exercise effort and-
这不像锻炼和锻炼努力，而且——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or eating salmon.
或者吃鲑鱼。
I don't like fish
我不喜欢鱼
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
eating salmon.
吃鲑鱼。
No. Yeah.
不，是的。
And a lot of people don't like fish, and also there's now microplastic contamination in our seafood sources.
很多人不喜欢鱼，而且我们的海鲜来源现在也存在微塑料污染。
There's the heavy metals PCBs, contaminants.
有重金属、多氯联苯、污染物。
I still eat salmon, but it's not like it used to be.
我仍然吃鲑鱼，但不再像以前那样了。
So there are other cleaner ways to get your omega-3 levels higher, and omega-3 is very important for cardiovascular.
因此，还有其他更清洁的方法可以提高 omega-3 水平，而 omega-3 对心血管非常重要。
It's one of the most important, I would say the most powerful naturally occurring dietary compounds for suppressing inflammation, and resolving inflammation would be a better way of putting it, right?
我想说，它是最重要的、最有效的天然膳食化合物之一，可以抑制炎症，解决炎症是更好的说法，对吗？
And that's, again, at the core of aging.
这又是衰老的核心。
And if you look at any sort of measure of aging, whether it's even these epigenetic aging clocks, they're very sensitive to inflammation.
如果你观察任何一种衰老指标，无论是这些表观遗传衰老时钟，都会发现它们对炎症非常敏感。
And that's why there's so many studies coming out now showing omega-3 can slow this biological aging as measured by these epigenetic aging clocks.
这就是为什么现在有如此多的研究表明 omega-3 可以减缓通过这些表观遗传衰老时钟测量的生物衰老。
And even in randomized control trials showing this, that it's doing that.
即使随机对照试验表明了这一点，它也正在这样做。
And that leads to functional outcomes as well.
这也会带来功能性结果。
So even if you're only slowing the clock, let's say by three months, you're still having outcomes like where, for example, three months slowing the epigenetic aging clock by omega-3 only is going to get you 16% lower pre-frailty.
因此，即使您只是减慢生物钟，比如说三个月，您仍然会得到这样的结果，例如，仅通过 omega-3 减慢表观遗传衰老生物钟三个月，您的衰弱前症状就会降低 16%。
Or if you add in vitamin D and resistance training, because the study showed a synergy between the three, then you're talking about lowering the chance of invasive cancer by 66%, even though you're only getting-
或者，如果您添加维生素 D 和阻力训练，因为研究表明三者之间具有协同作用，那么您所说的浸润性癌症的几率会降低 66%，即使您只得到——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
66?
66？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Even though you're only getting-
即使你只是得到——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So vitamin D, resistance training, and-
所以维生素 D、阻力训练，还有——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And omega-3
还有omega-3
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and omega-3.
和 omega-3。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
And this was-
这是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow
哇
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
the trial was actually out of Switzerland, I believe.
我相信，审判实际上是在瑞士进行的。
And it looked at omega-3, vitamin D alone, or resistance training alone.
它还研究了 omega-3、单独的维生素 D 或单独的阻力训练。
And the only thing that actually slowed the aging of the clocks was omega-3.
唯一真正能减缓时钟老化的物质是omega-3。
Now, I'll say that with a caveat, okay?
现在，我要提出警告，好吗？
The baseline exercise in this Switzerland group, 88% of these people are physically active, doing exercise.
在这个瑞士群体的基线锻炼中，88%的人都积极锻炼身体，进行锻炼。
So adding 30 minutes three times a week of resistance training on top of that didn't slow the clock more, and I wouldn't expect it to, to be honest, when you're already physically active and that's your baseline.
因此，每周增加 3 次 30 分钟的阻力训练并不会进一步减慢时钟速度，说实话，当你已经开始进行身体活动并且这就是你的基线时，我也不希望它会减慢。
Clearly they weren't eating enough omega-3
显然他们没有摄入足够的 omega-3
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
because that did slow the epigenetic aging clock.
因为这确实减缓了表观遗传衰老时钟。
Other studies have shown if you're vitamin D deficient, severely vitamin D deficient-
其他研究表明，如果您缺乏维生素 D，甚至是严重缺乏维生素 D——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
like African Americans, for example, who are obese or overweight, if they add in vitamin D and supplement with 4,000 IUs a day for six weeks, they can actually reverse their epigenetic aging as well.
例如，像肥胖或超重的非裔美国人，如果他们添加维生素 D，并每天补充 4,000 个国际单位，持续六周，他们实际上也可以逆转表观遗传衰老。
So I think, again, it's all where you're starting from.
所以我再次认为，这就是你的起点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But the point is that the omega-3 alone did slow the aging of these clocks.
但关键是，仅 omega-3 确实减缓了这些生物钟的老化。
And you add in the resistance training and vitamin D, those alone didn't do it, but when you add it with the omega-3, there was synergy, so it kept going down.
如果你添加抗阻训练和维生素 D，单独使用它们并不能起到作用，但是当你将其与 omega-3 添加时，就会产生协同作用，所以它会持续下降。
And when the three combined, it slowed the epigenetic aging by 3.8 months.
当三者结合起来时，表观遗传衰老速度延缓了 3.8 个月。
But that translated to 66% less likely to get invasive cancer.
但这意味着患浸润性癌症的可能性降低了 66%。
And then the pre-frailty was the omega-3 alone.
然后，衰弱前的症状仅是 omega-3。
And there was another marker I can't remember.
还有另一个我不记得的标记。
I covered this in the newsletter a while back.
我不久前在时事通讯中对此进行了报道。
But this isn't the first study to show this with omega-3.
但这并不是第一个用 omega-3 证明这一点的研究。
Omega-3s are really...
Omega-3确实...
I went on this tangent.
我继续走这条切线。
I'm sorry, Andrew.
对不起，安德鲁。
You got me on one of my favorite topics.
你让我谈到了我最喜欢的话题之一。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, that was great.
不，那太好了。
I'm excited because I take Lavaza, I take vitamin D, D3.
我很兴奋，因为我服用 Lavaza，我服用维生素 D、D3。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I take a lot.
我拿了很多。
I take 5,000 to 8,000 IUs per day.
我每天服用 5,000 至 8,000 个国际单位。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I get sunlight.
我得到了阳光。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People actually ask me, this is just a quick window into the messaging around sunlight.
人们实际上问我，这只是了解阳光信息的一个快速窗口。
Some people will say, "If I take vitamin D, do I still need sunlight?" And a big part of my messaging is trying to tell people-
有人会说，“如果我吃了维生素D，还需要晒太阳吗？”我的信息的很大一部分是试图告诉人们——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
sunlight does a bunch of other things.
阳光还有很多其他作用。
But I take vitamin D at that level.
但我服用的维生素 D 水平就是这个水平。
I take the Lavaza, and of course, I resistance train.
我乘坐 Lavaza，当然，我还进行阻力训练。
And the Lavaza move, and actually increasing the vitamin D was on the basis of yes, blood work, but also our prior conversation.
Lavaza 的举措，以及实际上增加维生素 D 的数量，是基于血液检查，也是我们之前的谈话。
I feel much better.
我感觉好多了。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Much better when I do it.
当我这样做时好多了。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I take about 5,000 IUs a day as well.
我每天也服用大约 5,000 个国际单位。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And I do get sunlight.
我确实得到了阳光。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And I agree with you, sunlight's important for...
我同意你的观点，阳光对于...很重要
Vitamin D production is not the only thing that sunlight is doing, obviously.
显然，维生素 D 的产生并不是阳光的唯一作用。
You've talked in great depth about that.
您已经对此进行了深入的讨论。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm going to go into the grave.
我要进坟墓了。
I actually want a little window over my grave.
我实际上想要在我的坟墓上有一扇小窗户。
It'll be a little morbid so I can get morning sunlight.
这会有点病态，这样我就能得到早晨的阳光。
I'm just kidding, folks.
我只是开玩笑，伙计们。
When I'm in the ground, I'm in the ground.
当我在地里的时候，我就在地里。
No, I think the omega-3 literature has been greatly assisted by your messaging around it because it got pretty confusing out there for a while.
不，我认为关于 omega-3 的文献得到了你们围绕它传递的信息的极大帮助，因为有一段时间它变得相当混乱。
There was the usual pushback that comes after Supplement of the Year is released.
年度增刊发布后，通常会遇到阻力。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a joke, folks.
这是一个笑话，伙计们。
Is the, "Oh, no, it's actually bad for us." There's always a few of those.
是，“哦，不，这实际上对我们不利。”总有一些这样的。
And then we eventually arrive at sanity again, and you go, no, the bulk of studies point in the direction of this being healthy.
然后我们最终再次恢复理智，你会发现，不，大量研究都表明这是健康的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Right.
对。
Randomized control trials showing it improves cardiovascular health, lowers the incidence of cardiovascular events, including heart attacks and strokes, right?
随机对照试验表明它可以改善心血管健康，降低心血管事件的发生率，包括心脏病发作和中风，对吗？
These are the gold standard.
这些是黄金标准。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
We've got the observational data.
我们已经得到了观测数据。
We have now looking at the molecular events with epigenetic aging.
我们现在正在研究表观遗传衰老的分子事件。
We know that it's really good at resolving inflammation, because you want your immune system to be active, but you don't want it to be overactive.
我们知道它确实能很好地解决炎症，因为您希望您的免疫系统活跃，但又不希望它过度活跃。
You want it to be active and then turn off, right?
您希望它处于活动状态然后关闭，对吗？
And so the omega-3 fatty acids like DHA and EPA, which are in Lovaza, are when they're metabolized, they're forming these molecules, resolvens, protectants.
因此，Lovaza 中的 DHA 和 EPA 等 omega-3 脂肪酸在代谢时会形成这些分子、分解剂和保护剂。
These things are resolving inflammation.
这些东西正在解决炎症。
And so I think that it's one of the easiest ways that you can increase your anti-inflammatory response, and exercise obviously being another very powerful one.
因此，我认为这是增强抗炎反应的最简单方法之一，而运动显然是另一种非常有效的方法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But the omega-3s, it's always easier to take a supplement.
但对于 omega-3 来说，服用补充剂总是更容易。
And so I have my parents taking it, anyone that I care about, it's like easy, done.
所以我让我的父母和我关心的任何人接受它，这很容易，完成了。
Take your two grams a day.
每天服用两克。
I say two grams a day because Lovaza's prescribed at four grams a day.
我说每天两克，因为 Lovaza 的处方剂量是每天四克。
So two grams is pretty on the conservative side, and that's really what's been shown by Dr. Bill Harris and some of his colleagues that basically you can take someone from a low omega-3 index of 4% up to a high omega-3 index of 8% by supplementing with about two grams a day.
因此，从保守的角度来看，2 克是相当不错的，这确实是 Bill Harris 博士和他的一些同事所证明的，基本上，通过每天补充大约 2 克，您可以将某人的 omega-3 指数从 4% 的低水平提高到 8% 的高 omega-3 指数。
And by the way, there's all sorts of data on that front with the omega-3 index, and I think we talked about this last time.
顺便说一句，omega-3 指数在这方面有各种各样的数据，我想我们上次讨论过这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But five-year increased life expectancy if you're on the high end.
但如果你处于高端，预期寿命会延长五年。
You're talking about 90% reduction in sudden cardiac death.
你说的是心源性猝死率降低了 90%。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Brain weight in children if pregnant women are taking-
如果孕妇服用，儿童的大脑重量 -
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It's important throughout the lifespan.
它在整个生命周期中都很重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It's from in utero development throughout childhood all the way through adult life and into old age.
它从子宫内发育到童年一直到成年直至老年。
These omega-3 fatty acids are I'm talking about the resolving of inflammation, but they're also very important for-- They are incorporated into our cell membranes, DHA, and to some degree, EPA.
我说的是这些 omega-3 脂肪酸可以解决炎症，但它们也非常重要——它们被纳入我们的细胞膜、DHA 以及某种程度上的 EPA。
And that has a very important role in the fluidity of our cell membranes.
这对于我们细胞膜的流动性起着非常重要的作用。
And this is important for, if you think about our endothelial cells lining our vascular system, our arteries, you want them to be fluid and more flexible, right?
这很重要，如果你考虑一下血管系统、动脉内壁的内皮细胞，你会希望它们具有流动性和灵活性，对吗？
That's very important for being able to respond to a stressful situation.
这对于能够应对压力情况非常重要。
In fact, the stiffening of our heart with age, the collagen that's surrounding our heart, pericardium, and our myocardium, that increases the risk of a heart attack, a cardiovascular event.
事实上，随着年龄的增长，心脏、心脏、心包和心肌周围的胶原蛋白会变硬，从而增加心脏病发作和心血管事件的风险。
You want your cells to be more flexible.
您希望您的细胞更加灵活。
So that's what these omega-3s are also doing, and that's why they're also really important for cardiovascular health in addition.
这就是这些 omega-3 的作用，这就是为什么它们对心血管健康也非常重要。
And the brain as well.
还有大脑。
All of our transporters, all of our receptors, they're embedded in the cell membrane.
我们所有的转运蛋白，所有的受体，它们都嵌入细胞膜中。
And the fluidity of that membrane is important for the structure and function of these things.
该膜的流动性对于这些东西的结构和功能很重要。
And that's why omega-3 affects dopamine, serotonin.
这就是 omega-3 影响多巴胺、血清素的原因。
It's not the only reason.
这不是唯一的原因。
Inflammation is also, but part of the reason is because it's changing the way our cell is structurally composed.
炎症也是如此，但部分原因是它正在改变我们细胞的结构组成方式。
And if you think about trans fats, they do the opposite.
如果你想到反式脂肪，它们的作用恰恰相反。
They stiffen the cell membranes.
它们使细胞膜变硬。
And that's why one of the worst things you could do for your cardiovascular health is eat a bunch of trans fats.
这就是为什么对心血管健康来说最糟糕的事情之一就是吃大量反式脂肪。
Smoking is another one.
吸烟是另一回事。
Smoking's terrible for your cardiovascular health.
吸烟对心血管健康有害。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do people still eat trans fats?
人们还在吃反式脂肪吗？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
No. I think the bans-
不，我认为禁令-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I feel like trans fats got executed in-- When was it that trans fats got executed?
我觉得反式脂肪在——什么时候被处决的？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I think it was 2018.
我认为那是2018年。
When they all like-
当他们都喜欢——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, they were sentenced to death.
是的，他们被判处死刑。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
No. The point is that we all know trans fats are bad for our heart, but we don't think about why.
不。关键是我们都知道反式脂肪对我们的心脏有害，但我们不思考为什么。
I mean, the researchers doing it know.
我的意思是，研究人员知道这一点。
It's stiffening your cell, your endothelial cells.
它使你的细胞、内皮细胞变硬。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, donuts, right?
嗯，甜甜圈，对吧？
As in like if you go get a donut, isn't a donut have a bunch of-
就像如果你去买一个甜甜圈一样，甜甜圈不是有一堆-
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
There's probably...
大概有...
I don't know how much
我不知道多少钱
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fried foods.
油炸食品。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
There's probably some amount of trans fat that's like below the threshold of being-
可能有一定数量的反式脂肪低于阈值-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's the only bad food I miss.
这是我唯一怀念的糟糕食物。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The late-night donut run.
深夜的甜甜圈跑。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I had so much margarine as a kid.
我小时候喝了很多人造黄油。
My mom used to buy it by the tub.
我妈妈以前都是在浴缸旁边买的。
I remember, she used to go to Costco and get this big yellow-
我记得，她以前经常去 Costco 买这个大黄色的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I remember those tubs
我记得那些浴缸
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
tub of margarine.
一桶人造黄油。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I remember those tubs.
我记得那些浴缸。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And everything was cooked in it, and it was on our toast, and I mean-
所有东西都在里面煮熟了，放在我们的吐司上，我的意思是-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This was a battle in my home.
这是我家里的一场战斗。
Actually, I'm going to resurrect some family battles of the butter.
事实上，我要复活一些关于黄油的家庭斗争。
The butter margarine battle was a battle.
人造黄油之战是一场战斗。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Butter won.
黄油赢了。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It doesn't taste the same.
味道不一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But that was the craze.
但这正是当时的热潮。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It was the low-- Like, the fat was bad, and butter was bad, and margarine was good.
这是低——比如，脂肪不好，黄油不好，人造黄油很好。
And it turns out, nope, trans fats are really bad.
事实证明，不，反式脂肪真的很糟糕。
But the point I was trying to make was to help contrast for people to understand.
但我想要表达的观点是帮助人们进行对比以便理解。
Sometimes when I talk cell fluidity, people are like, "What?"
有时，当我谈论细胞流动性时，人们会问，“什么？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, it's good that people-- I think it's very important that people understand some of the cellular and molecular underpinnings of protocols, because I strongly believe that understanding mechanism, even just a little bit, or striving to understand it, embeds the information for people, makes it more likely that they'll do the behaviors, and gives them a logic to work from when they have to make choices, because life isn't perfect.
不，人们很好——我认为人们了解协议的一些细胞和分子基础非常重要，因为我坚信，理解机制，即使只是一点点，或者努力理解它，都会为人们嵌入信息，使他们更有可能采取行动，并在他们必须做出选择时给他们一个工作逻辑，因为生活并不完美。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know that to be certain.
我知道这是肯定的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I completely agree with you.
我完全同意你的观点。
It's certainly for me, but that is also my hope.
这当然适合我，但这也是我的希望。
I think that if people kind of understand somewhat of the why, it's motivating to try to adopt the healthy habit.
我认为，如果人们稍微理解其中的原因，就会激励人们尝试养成健康的习惯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But also, I think it helps them remember why it's important, right?
而且，我认为这可以帮助他们记住为什么它很重要，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
It's how the brain learns.
这就是大脑的学习方式。
The secret is context.
秘密在于背景。
The way to remember something is context.
记住某事的方法是上下文。
People always say it's story.
人们总是说这是故事。
No, it's context.
不，这是上下文。
And anyway, you and I know that to be true from our background.
不管怎样，你和我从我们的背景中知道这是真的。
If I may, I'd like to ask about magnesium.
如果可以的话，我想问一下关于镁的问题。
I'm very bullish on magnesium, in particular magnesium threonate before sleep.
我非常看好镁，特别是睡前的苏糖酸镁。
For sleep, I take AGZ because I helped them build it.
对于睡眠，我服用 AGZ，因为我帮助他们建立了它。
It just has a bunch of things like magnesium threonate, and saffron, and tart cherry.
它只有一堆东西，比如苏糖酸镁、藏红花和酸樱桃。
The things that have either been shown or are gradually amassing research data to other people, studies out there to support that it can facilitate either transition to sleep or sleep.
已经向其他人展示或正在逐渐收集研究数据的事情，研究表明它可以促进睡眠过渡或睡眠。
But magnesium threonate and magnesium bisglycinate, to me, are interchangeable with respect to sleep.
但对我来说，苏糖酸镁和双甘氨酸镁在睡眠方面是可以互换的。
But magnesium threonate, I'm aware there are some studies that there may be some cognitive benefits.
但是苏糖酸镁，我知道有一些研究表明可能有一些认知益处。
So magnesium obviously could be split into a number of things, but maybe we just start there with threonate, bisglycinate.
因此，镁显然可以分解成多种物质，但也许我们只是从苏糖酸盐、双甘氨酸盐开始。
I have a feeling that you're aware of some additional differences between them, and I'd like to know what you prefer for sleep or for cognitive benefits, and then maybe we get into the other magnesiums.
我有一种感觉，你已经意识到它们之间的一些额外差异，我想知道你更喜欢什么来促进睡眠或认知益处，然后也许我们会讨论其他镁。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I think, so if we're comparing magnesium bisglycinate or magnesium glycinate, depending on how many molecules of glycine are attached to the magnesium, compared to magnesium L-threonate, the main difference here, and this is based on very limited amount of data, a lot of it animal data with respect to the magnesium threonate, is that that form of magnesium is supposed to get into and cross the blood-brain barrier more readily and get into the brain better.
我认为，如果我们比较双甘氨酸镁或甘氨酸镁，取决于镁上附着有多少甘氨酸分子，与L-苏糖酸镁相比，这里的主要区别是，这是基于非常有限的数据，其中很多关于苏糖酸镁的动物数据，是这种形式的镁应该更容易进入和穿过血脑屏障，并更好地进入大脑。
And in the brain, it's helping facilitate neurotransmission, et cetera.
在大脑中，它有助于促进神经传递等。
Helping improve cognitive function.
帮助改善认知功能。
And so whereas magnesium glycinate or bisglycinate, you're having the magnesium attached to the glycine.
因此，虽然甘氨酸镁或双甘氨酸镁，但镁附着在甘氨酸上。
Glycine also is great to take for sleep.
甘氨酸也非常适合睡眠。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yep.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So I like to take magnesium bisglycinate or glycinate for sleep.
所以我喜欢服用双甘氨酸镁或甘氨酸镁来睡觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And so that I would say if you're interested in more the cognition aspect.
所以我想说如果你对认知方面更感兴趣的话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, the studies, I think you're referring to the Guosong Liu's data-
嗯，这些研究，我想你指的是刘国松的数据——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
show some, in mice, some cognitive enhancement or at least some offsetting of cognitive decline.
研究表明，小鼠的认知能力有所增强，或者至少抵消了认知能力的下降。
Those are different but related, obviously.
显然，这些是不同但相关的。
In anticipation of today's discussion, I was able to find one study Seems okay.
期待今天的讨论，我找到了一项研究似乎还不错。
It's not a huge sample size, showing positive reports on sleep quality after magnesium L-threonate.
这并不是一个巨大的样本量，显示了服用 L-苏糖酸镁后睡眠质量的积极报告。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So the studies are starting to-
所以研究开始——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
show up.
出现。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Starting to show up.
开始出现。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But there aren't a lot of studies on magnesium for specific outcomes in humans.
但目前还没有大量关于镁对人类产生特定影响的研究。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
True.
确实如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think it's because it hits, like what, 3,000 plus pathways or something
我认为这是因为它击中了 3,000 多条路径之类的东西
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
There's a lot of pathways.
有很多途径。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It's a co-factor for many-
这是许多人的辅助因素-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
enzymes.
酶。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So if you're taking um, bisglycinate before sleep, are you taking it a half hour or 60 minutes before sleep?
那么，如果您在睡前服用双甘氨酸，您是在睡前半小时还是 60 分钟服用？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I'm usually taking it, I would say, like a couple of hours before-
我通常会在几个小时前服用——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay
好的
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
bed.
床。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Sometimes I add a little bit more magnesium in the mix.
有时我会在混合物中添加更多的镁。
Depends on the day and if I exercise more-
取决于当天以及我是否锻炼更多-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
because you do sweat out magnesium.
因为你会出汗，排出镁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And so if you're pretty athletic, your requirements can go up by even as much as 20%.
因此，如果您的运动能力很强，您的要求甚至可以提高 20%。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Uh, but yeah.
呃，但是是的。
The magnesium L-threonate, it's interesting, I very recently got interested in experimenting with it.
L-苏糖酸镁，很有趣，我最近有兴趣尝试它。
There's a little bit of human evidence as well-
还有一点人类证据——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
that it improves cognition.
它可以提高认知能力。
Not strong, but again-
不强，但还是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
it's that we just don't have a lot of people researching it, and we have the animal data.
我们只是没有很多人研究它，但我们有动物数据。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
The animal data is a little stronger.
动物数据更强一些。
Don't have a lot of human data, but it seems to signal it might-
没有太多的人类数据，但它似乎表明它可能-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
be important.
很重要。
It might help with cognition, right?
它可能有助于认知，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And so I kind of got interested in experimenting with the magnesium L-threonate, which I haven't ush...
所以我对 L-苏糖酸镁的实验产生了兴趣，但我还没有催促……
It's a new thing for me.
这对我来说是新事物。
I've been doing magnesium glycinate for a while.
我服用甘氨酸镁有一段时间了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Um-
嗯-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think the study actually looked at the Magtein ver-
我认为这项研究实际上着眼于马格泰因版本-
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have no financial relationship to Magtein.
我与马格坦没有经济关系。
I want to be very clear.
我想说得很清楚。
I just mention that because that's a common one out there, and as far as I know, I'll double-check, but they weren't paid by Magtein, but-
我只是提到这一点，因为这是常见的，据我所知，我会仔细检查，但他们不是由马格泰因支付的，但是-
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I think the Magtein did fund the study.
我认为马格泰因确实资助了这项研究。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, they did?
哦，他们做到了？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So yeah.
所以是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
All right.
好的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But you know-
但你知道——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We'll put a link to it
我们将放置一个链接
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
it doesn't discredit it unless there's some bad things going on, which I like to think-
它不会抹黑它，除非发生了一些不好的事情，我喜欢这样想——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
not.
不。
I mean, gen-
我的意思是，生成
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's supposed to be done independently, I mean, when they pay for a-
我的意思是，当他们支付费用时，这应该是独立完成的——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
group to do...
组做...
I mean, by law, they're supposed to blind the data and not bias the outcomes.
我的意思是，根据法律，他们应该对数据视而不见，而不是对结果产生偏见。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Right.
对。
I think that's-
我认为那是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One hopes that's what they do.
人们希望这就是他们所做的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And I think-
我认为——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
for the most part, you're-
在大多数情况下，你是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
probably okay.
可能还好。
But it is something to consider-
但这是值得考虑的事情——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
if there's a potential COI, right?
如果存在潜在的利益冲突，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But yeah.
但是是的。
So I don't know.
所以我不知道。
So that was the first part of your question, was the difference between-
这就是你问题的第一部分，两者之间的区别是-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
the glycinate and the threonate.
甘氨酸盐和苏糖酸盐。
And then the concern that I might have, which might be something you're not thinking about, is okay, well, I need to fulfill my magnesium requirements, right?
然后我可能会担心，这可能是你没有考虑到的事情，没关系，好吧，我需要满足我的镁需求，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And so our daily magnesium requirements, again, based on our gender and our physical activity, it's a range.
因此，我们每日的镁需求量同样是根据我们的性别和身体活动而定的一个范围。
It's a sliding scale.
这是一个滑动比例。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So, women, 300, 350 milligrams a day.
所以，女性，每天300、350毫克。
Men, 350, 400 milligrams a day, really depending on how physically active you are.
男性，每天 350、400 毫克，具体取决于您的体力活动程度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And this is just your daily requirements to have enough magnesium to run, repairing DNA damage.
这只是您每天需要摄入足够的镁来运行、修复 DNA 损伤。
You need magnesium to make energy, to utilize energy.
你需要镁来制造能量、利用能量。
You need it for neurotransmission.
你需要它来进行神经传递。
There's so many different-
有很多不同的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
important functions in our body that require magnesium to work, to convert vitamin D3 into the active steroid hormone.
我们体内的重要功能需要镁才能发挥作用，将维生素 D3 转化为活性类固醇激素。
And this, to me, is to some degree, vindicating, but also I'm super annoyed by it because we have all these different studies out there on vitamin D supplementation, and is it important?
对我来说，这在某种程度上是正确的，但我也对此感到非常恼火，因为我们对维生素 D 补充剂进行了所有这些不同的研究，这重要吗？
And I mean, there's so many negative data out there.
我的意思是，有很多负面数据。
Well, it doesn't do what we thought.
嗯，它并没有像我们想象的那样。
It's not doing anything.
它什么也没做。
But half the US population doesn't get enough magnesium.
但一半的美国人没有摄入足够的镁。
And so those enzymes that are important for converting the D3 that you're taking into the active steroid hormone are not working properly.
因此，那些对于将您摄入的 D3 转化为活性类固醇激素非常重要的酶无法正常工作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So anyways, I'm not going to go on that tangent, but I'm just saying magnesium-
所以无论如何，我不会继续这个切线，但我只是说镁-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay
好的
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
is doing a lot of things.
正在做很多事情。
So, if you're taking the magnesium threonate, and let's say it's going into the brain more readily, then the concern would be, well, not enough of it is around for DNA repair in other organs and stuff.
所以，如果你服用苏糖酸镁，假设它更容易进入大脑，那么你会担心，嗯，它的含量不足以修复其他器官和物质中的 DNA。
And so you might want to get another source of magnesium.
因此，您可能想要获得另一种镁来源。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It's all theoretical, right?
这都是理论上的，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
There's no data on that.
没有这方面的数据。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So just mostly because no one's looking at it, no one's-
所以主要是因为没有人看它，没有人-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
investigating it.
调查它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's not a lot of incentive.
没有太多的激励。
It's funny when people will always say, "Well, there's no incentive because the drug companies can't make a lot of money on it." And sometimes that's true, but I have to chuckle because as scientists, I will tell you folks, and I wish I could just paint this across the sky, but then I get accused of being a chemtrail person or something.
有趣的是，人们总是说：“好吧，没有激励措施，因为制药公司不能靠它赚很多钱。”有时这是真的，但我不得不笑，因为作为科学家，我会告诉你们，我希望我能在天空中画出这个，但后来我被指责为化学痕迹者或其他什么。
The reason there's no studies on BPC 157, the reason there's no RCTs-
没有对 BPC 157 进行研究的原因，没有 RCT 的原因-
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
on a randomized control, on different forms of magnesium and large sample sizes, because we barely have enough money to fund the current research.
随机对照、不同形式的镁和大样本量，因为我们几乎没有足够的资金来资助当前的研究。
I'm not trying to make this political, like we just had a 1% increase in the NIH budget, but there isn't an infinite amount of money to run studies.
我并不是想让这变得政治化，就像我们刚刚将 NIH 预算增加了 1%，但并没有无限的资金来进行研究。
And so scientists, if they already work on magnesium, or it becomes interesting to them because it came up in a screen of pathways, there are not a lot of scientists sitting around going, "Oh, maybe I should compare magnesium malate, bisglycinate, threonate in sleep in 2,000 subjects, male, female, pregnant, and perimenopausal." No. There's no money to do it.
因此，如果科学家们已经开始研究镁，或者因为它出现在途径筛选中而对镁感兴趣，那么不会有很多科学家坐在那里说，“哦，也许我应该比较 2,000 名受试者（男性、女性、孕妇和围绝经期受试者）睡眠中的苹果酸镁、双甘氨酸镁、苏糖酸镁。”不，没有钱去做这件事。
So that's where I get back to is it safe?
那我就回到那里安全吗？
Do you want to be in the experimental or the control group?
你想加入实验组还是对照组？
Can you afford to be in the experimental or the control group?
您能承担加入实验组还是对照组的费用吗？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I feel like that's all we've got.
我觉得这就是我们所拥有的一切。
And I'm chuckling, it's sort of like a laughter of pain, because I get where people are coming from, but the drug companies are not avoiding studying magnesium because there's no money to make.
我笑了，这有点像痛苦的笑声，因为我知道人们从哪里来，但制药公司并没有因为赚不到钱而避免研究镁。
It's because, I don't know, what would that even look like?
这是因为，我不知道，那会是什么样子？
What endpoint?
什么端点？
What disease?
什么病？
Yeah.
是的。
Anyway.
反正。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Forgive me for editorializing.
请原谅我的编辑。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
You're not going to-
你不会-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But yeah.
但是是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
You're not going to cure cardiovascular disease or cancer by taking a magnesium supplement.
服用镁补充剂并不能治愈心血管疾病或癌症。
These nutraceuticals, these vitamins and minerals, they're about prevention, really.
这些营养保健品，这些维生素和矿物质，它们确实是为了预防。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And giving your body the right nutrients that it needs to do and function properly, whether that is getting enough sleep.
并为您的身体提供正常运作和运作所需的正确营养，无论是充足的睡眠。
When you're stressed, when your cortisol goes up-
当你有压力时，当你的皮质醇升高时——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
chronically, you're depleting magnesium.
长期来说，你会消耗镁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Magnesium is being used to-
镁被用于-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
deal with that stress, right?
处理这种压力，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
There's a reason that we need things like magnesium and vitamin D.
我们需要镁和维生素 D 等物质是有原因的。
It gets converted into steroid hormone, changing 5% of our genome.
它会转化为类固醇激素，改变我们基因组的 5%。
So, yeah, it's different.
所以，是的，这是不同的。
It's not like a pharmaceutical where you don't need this to function optimally.
它不像药物，不需要它就能发挥最佳作用。
It's the whole, okay, I'm sick, and now I need this.
这是全部，好吧，我病了，现在我需要这个。
Or I'm overweight, we got the GLP-1s.
或者我超重，我们有 GLP-1。
I'm fat, I'm obese, and I need to help fix that.
我很胖，我很肥胖，我需要帮助解决这个问题。
And so that's kind of a different paradigm than-
所以这是一种不同的范式——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Specific endpoint type stuff.
特定端点类型的东西。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I think that's super important for people to hear that.
是的，我认为这对于人们听到这个非常重要。
Oh, by the way, I should just say, for your sake and for the listeners, I divide supplements into basically four categories.
哦，顺便说一句，为了你，也为了听众，我把副刊基本上分为四类。
Like food replacement, like whey protein or a protein bar.
比如食物替代品，比如乳清蛋白或蛋白棒。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Obvious.
显而易见。
So general support, specific effects, and then experimental maybe.
所以一般支持，具体效果，然后可能是实验性的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so I think what we're talking about here with magnesium is kind of a combination of maybe helps with sleep, some specific effects that you're aware of, like required, and you're trying to top off.
所以我认为我们在这里谈论的镁是一种可能有助于睡眠的组合，你知道一些特定的效果，比如需要的，并且你正在努力完成。
You're trying to make sure that you're covering a deficiency.
你正在努力确保你正在弥补缺陷。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it.
明白了。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
You're trying to make sure you're getting enough of the magnesium.
您要努力确保摄入足够的镁。
Exactly.
确切地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are there any other things that you take that are just trying to make sure that you're not deficient anywhere, or for specific reasons?
您采取的其他措施是否只是为了确保您没有任何缺陷，或者出于特定原因？
We've talked about a few along the way here.
我们在这里讨论了一些内容。
Glutamine, vitamin D, omega-3s, creatine.
谷氨酰胺、维生素 D、omega-3、肌酸。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I take a multivitamin, and that is to cover my bases.
我服用多种维生素，这是为了满足我的需要。
Because there's a lot of things in a multivitamin.
因为复合维生素里含有很多东西。
You have to find, obviously, a good quality one.
显然，你必须找到一件质量好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And anyone that tells you that multivitamins are useless, they're wrong.
如果有人告诉你复合维生素没有用，那他们就错了。
I'm going to tell you that.
我要告诉你的是。
They're wrong.
他们错了。
Because I think now we have pretty strong data.
因为我认为现在我们拥有相当强大的数据。
Three very large randomized control trials, part of the COSMOS trials.
三项非常大的随机对照试验，是 COSMOS 试验的一部分。
Have you heard of these studies?
你听说过这些研究吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And it's really, I think, pretty clear that in these studies, older adults, so we're talking 65 years and older, that are taking a multivitamin supplement for, was it a year, I think it was?
我认为，很明显，在这些研究中，老年人，我们说的是 65 岁及以上的人，他们服用多种维生素补充剂的时间是一年吗？
It could be two, but I think it was a year.
可能是两年，但我认为是一年。
And it was, by the way, Centrum Silver.
顺便说一下，它是 Centrum Silver。
It was your standard anyone could afford to get it at Walmart type of vitamin.
这是任何人都可以在沃尔玛买到的维生素类型的标准。
And after a year of taking this multivitamin, it globally reduced brain aging by about 2.1 years from three trials.
服用这种复合维生素一年后，根据三项试验，它在全球范围内使大脑衰老减少了约 2.1 年。
Globally reduced brain aging by 2.1 years.
全球大脑衰老速度减少了 2.1 年。
Battery of tests that are done.
已完成的一系列测试。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I'm just talking about general here.
我这里只说一般。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And it also reduced episodic brain aging by 4.9 years.
它还将间歇性大脑老化缩短了 4.9 年。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So that would be, as people probably are already familiar with that listen to this podcast, episodic memory, that's the part of memory that's involved in remembering events and people and experiences.
所以，正如人们可能已经熟悉的那样，听这个播客，情景记忆，这是记忆中涉及记住事件、人物和经历的部分。
Am I right?
我说得对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It's part of not as much facts and-
这是不那么多事实的一部分，而且——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, sequence of things.
是的，事情的顺序。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Sequence of things, yeah.
事情的顺序，是的。
And so that's a big effect for just a daily multivitamin.
因此，对于每天服用多种维生素来说，这已经是一个很大的效果了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And so for that reason, I've been taking it before these studies came out, but my parents.
因此，出于这个原因，在这些研究出来之前我就一直在服用它，但我的父母。
Anyone that's older adult should be taking a multivitamin.
任何老年人都应该服用多种维生素。
So that's another one that I take.
这是我采取的另一项措施。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And I take it to cover my bases as well.
我也用它来掩盖我的基地。
I'm obviously not an older adult, and who knows, it might not have the same effect on me.
我显然不是一个老年人，谁知道呢，它可能不会对我产生同样的影响。
But it's one of those that it's not harmful.
但这是无害的之一。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
If it's a little bit of an expensive urine, fine.
如果是有点贵的尿液，那也没关系。
But it is covering some of my bases-
但它涵盖了我的一些基础-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
in terms of some of the micronutrients in it.
就其中的一些微量营养素而言。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
The other ones that I take, and besides the one that you mentioned, which is vitamin D, omega-3, I do creatine, magnesium.
我服用的其他药物，除了你提到的维生素 D、omega-3 之外，我还服用肌酸、镁。
I do magnesium glycinate.
我做甘氨酸镁。
I should look into the bisglycinate because I definitely would like another molecule of glycine I like for my sleep.
我应该研究一下双甘氨酸，因为我肯定想要另一种我喜欢的甘氨酸分子来帮助我的睡眠。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But I also sometimes take another form of magnesium, which is like a mixture of magnesium malate and taurate, I think.
但我有时也会服用另一种形式的镁，我认为它就像苹果酸镁和牛磺酸镁的混合物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And glycinate is also in that.
甘氨酸也在其中。
But sometimes I take that for sleep.
但有时我会拿它来睡觉。
And then I take ubiquinol-
然后我服用泛醇-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
for mitochondrial health.
为了线粒体健康。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You like the data on that?
你喜欢这方面的数据吗？
Obviously, if you're taking it.
显然，如果你接受的话。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
There's stronger data, I think, on ubiquinone-
我认为关于泛醌有更强有力的数据-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
which is the oxidized form.
这是氧化形式。
It's more stable.
它更稳定。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
When I say stronger, I mean more data.
当我说更强时，我指的是更多数据。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you take coenzyme Q10?
你服用辅酶Q10吗？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So CoQ10 is-
所以 CoQ10 是-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or Q10, excuse me.
或者 Q10，对不起。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
CoQ10 is ubiquinol.
CoQ10 是泛醇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And so I'm taking the reduced form of it, which is ubiquinol.
所以我正在服用它的还原形式，即泛醇。
The more stable form would be ubiquinone.
更稳定的形式是泛醌。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are those trademark names?
这些是商标名称吗？
Because I take coenzyme Q10.
因为我服用辅酶Q10。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
You're taking-
你正在服用——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm guessing if I took a closer look at the bottle, I'd see the ubiquinone.
我猜如果我仔细看看瓶子，我会看到泛醌。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It's ubiquinol.
它是泛醇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Ubiquinol.
泛醇。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
The ubiquinol is a little bit more bioavailable.
泛醇的生物利用度更高一些。
But yeah.
但是是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So I'm pretty convinced that that helps with mitochondrial function.
所以我非常确信这有助于线粒体功能。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
You could always have more data.
您总是可以拥有更多数据。
So we'll just leave it at that.
所以我们就这样吧。
The other one I take is now I'm taking urolithin A.
我现在服用的另一种药物是尿石素 A。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
In the form of, I'm taking Mitopure.
我正在服用Mitopure。
By the way, I have nothing to do with these companies.
顺便说一句，我和这些公司没有任何关系。
But I've just been, over the years, increasingly interested.
但这些年来我的兴趣越来越浓厚。
So urolithin A is something that is formed from a type of polyphenol that's found in some fruits, like pomegranate being the main one, I think.
所以尿石素 A 是由一种多酚形成的，这种多酚存在于某些水果中，我认为石榴是主要的水果。
And raspberries may also have some.
覆盆子也可能有一些。
I think walnuts also.
我觉得核桃也可以。
But it's ellagitannin is the polyphenol, and these ellagitannins get metabolized by the gut microbiome.
但鞣花单宁是多酚，这些鞣花单宁被肠道微生物代谢。
And the metabolites that are formed, one of them is called urolithin A.
所形成的代谢物，其中之一称为尿石素 A。
And so urolithin A is a compound that seems to stimulate the process of mitophagy, which is a very specific form of autophagy that's only for mitochondria.
因此，尿石素 A 是一种似乎可以刺激线粒体自噬过程的化合物，线粒体自噬是一种非常特殊的自噬形式，仅针对线粒体。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And there have been randomized control trials showing this in humans.
并且已经有随机对照试验在人类中证明了这一点。
It does stimulate mitophagy blood cells as well as a muscle biopsy.
它确实会刺激线粒体自噬血细胞以及肌肉活检。
But that's an important cleanup process for how our mitochondria repair themselves.
但这对于我们的线粒体自我修复来说是一个重要的清理过程。
There's no repair enzymes.
没有修复酶。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Part of that repair process is mitophagy, where they selectively can get rid of parts of mitochondria that are damaged.
修复过程的一部分是线粒体自噬，它们可以选择性地去除受损的线粒体部分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So it's really a rejuvenation.
所以这确实是一种复兴。
And some of the clinical data, I would say, is emerging.
我想说，一些临床数据正在出现。
More needs to be done, but it seems to, in some cases, improve endurance performance.
还需要做更多的工作，但在某些情况下，这似乎可以提高耐力表现。
Which makes sense, because they rely heavily on mitochondria.
这是有道理的，因为它们严重依赖线粒体。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But even also help with the immune system and this whole inflammaging.
但甚至还有助于免疫系统和整个炎症。
So it seems like it's helping keeping immune cells, quote-unquote, "younger." So again, emerging data, but I'm in that.
因此，它似乎有助于保持免疫细胞“更年轻”。再说一次，新兴数据，但我参与其中。
I'm like, "I'm the experiment group."
我想，“我是实验组。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It seems to be safe, and I'm not taking too high of a dose.
它似乎是安全的，而且我没有服用太高的剂量。
So that's another one that I'm supplementing with.
这是我要补充的另一项内容。
The other one that I'm taking also is a form of, I would say, I'm going to call it sulforaphane, but it's not sulforaphane.
我正在服用的另一种也是一种形式，我想说，我将称之为萝卜硫素，但它不是萝卜硫素。
It's the precursor to sulforaphane, glucoraphanin, because that's more stable.
它是萝卜硫素、萝卜硫苷的前体，因为它更稳定。
And so I take something called Avmacol, which the reason I take that one is because there's, oh, it's 13 now, a new stage just came out, 13 studies using that form.
所以我采取了一种叫做 Avmacol 的药物，我采取这种药物的原因是因为，哦，现在已经有 13 项了，一个新的阶段刚刚出现，有 13 项研究使用该形式。
And sulforaphane is also one of those plant phytochemicals.
萝卜硫素也是植物化学物质之一。
It's found in cruciferous vegetables.
它存在于十字花科蔬菜中。
As you know, we've talked about this before, so I'll try to make it brief.
如您所知，我们之前已经讨论过这个问题，所以我会尽量简短地说。
So glucoraphanin is in these cruciferous vegetables like broccoli.
因此，萝卜硫苷存在于西兰花等十字花科蔬菜中。
Broccoli sprouts are a really, really great source of it.
西兰花芽是它的一个非常非常好的来源。
And when the plant is crushed, like when you eat it, eat broccoli, or chew it, whatever, an enzyme is activated that converts glucoraphanin into sulforaphane.
当植物被压碎时，比如当你吃它、吃西兰花或咀嚼它时，一种酶就会被激活，将萝卜硫素转化为萝卜硫素。
The reason I take it is because I've been now convinced by, I would say, the limited number of human studies, clinical studies, but also the totality of evidence looking at cruciferous vegetables in general, and then also animal data that it's really important.
我之所以接受它，是因为我现在已经相信，有限的人类研究、临床研究，以及十字花科蔬菜的总体证据，以及动物数据，这确实很重要。
It's probably the best naturally occurring dietary activator of a stress response pathway that is important for detoxification, and that pathway is the NRF2 pathway.
它可能是对解毒很重要的应激反应途径的最佳天然饮食激活剂，该途径就是 NRF2 途径。
I'm sure you've heard of that pathway.
我相信你听说过这条路。
Sulforaphane is a very, very powerful activator of that pathway.
萝卜硫素是该途径的一种非常非常强大的激活剂。
And what I mean by pathway is that gene is turning on and turning off many, many other genes.
我所说的途径是指基因正在打开和关闭许多其他基因。
What we know about it is that it's very important for activating the detoxification genes that are involved in detoxifying things that are harmful to us.
我们所知道的是，它对于激活解毒基因非常重要，这些基因参与解毒对我们有害的物质。
And so the classic studies that have been done, most of them in China where air pollution is very high, is that if you take this broccoli sprout sulforaphane extract, you can start to excrete compounds that are found in air pollution like benzene that are carcinogenic, right?
因此，已经进行的经典研究（其中大部分是在空气污染非常严重的中国）是，如果您服用这种西兰花芽萝卜硫素提取物，您可以开始排出空气污染中发现的化合物，例如苯，这些致癌物，对吗？
And you can start to excrete it after 24 hours by like 60%.
24小时后你就可以开始排出60%左右。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
What about plastics?
那么塑料呢？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So that's my thing.
这就是我的事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
That's why I'm taking it-
这就是为什么我要接受它-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
and my whole family.
和我的全家。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Because the same enzymes that are activated by the sulforaphane that detoxify benzene, so basically you're detoxifying it.
因为萝卜硫素激活的酶与苯的解毒酶相同，所以基本上你正在解毒。
What I mean is you're basically making it water-soluble so you can excrete it through urine.
我的意思是你基本上让它溶于水，这样你就可以通过尿液排出体外。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Okay.
好的。
The same ones, that's exactly what those enzymes do to BPA.
同样的，这正是这些酶对 BPA 的作用。
They make it water-soluble and help you excrete it through urine.
它们使其水溶性并帮助您通过尿液排出体外。
There's no human data showing this yet.
目前还没有人类数据显示这一点。
I want someone to do the study.
我想要有人来做这项研究。
But we do have animal evidence where animals are given a high dose of BPA and sulforaphane, and it protects against the toxicity.
但我们确实有动物证据表明，动物被给予高剂量的 BPA 和萝卜硫素，可以防止毒性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I basically think that someone's going to show it-
我基本上认为有人会展示它-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
and it's going to be clear because the enzymes that are involved are activated by this-
事情会很清楚，因为所涉及的酶被激活了-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
by sulforaphane.
通过萝卜硫素。
That's been shown with benzene and acrolein excretion, right?
苯和丙烯醛的排泄已经证明了这一点，对吗？
So why wouldn't it be BPA?
那么为什么不是 BPA 呢？
You never know.
你永远不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The mechanistic logic is there.
机械逻辑就在那里。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Exactly.
确切地。
Exactly.
确切地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So that's another reason why.
这是另一个原因。
Also, it's been shown in human studies to very powerfully increase glutathione in both the plasma and the brain, and that's also through the NRF2 pathway.
此外，人体研究表明，它可以非常有效地增加血浆和大脑中的谷胱甘肽，而且这也是通过 NRF2 途径实现的。
It activates the powerful antioxidant pathway.
它激活强大的抗氧化途径。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It also deactivates phase I biotransformation enzymes.
它还会使 I 相生物转化酶失活。
Those are involved in turning a procarcinogen into a carcinogen.
这些参与将原致癌物转变为致癌物。
So those are things like you're grilling your meat at a high temperature, and you're getting heterocyclic amines, right?
所以就像你在高温下烤肉一样，你会得到杂环胺，对吗？
These things can be harmful and-
这些东西可能有害并且-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We had a-
我们有一个-
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But our body can deal with it.
但我们的身体可以应对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
We had a cancer doc on here recently, and I was scared to ask him the question because I didn't want the answer.
最近我们这里有一位癌症医生，我不敢问他这个问题，因为我不想得到答案。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I did want the answer of the char on meat.
但我确实想要关于肉的炭的答案。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And he's like, "It's a pretty serious carcinogen."
他说，“这是一种非常严重的致癌物质。”
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It is.
这是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's real.
那是真的。
The occasional thing isn't going to be a problem.
偶尔的事情不会成为问题。
You'll be relieved to know, and this is not a promotional, that the can that you're drinking out of, these are intentionally BPA, BPS, and PFAS free.
您会放心地知道，这不是促销，您饮用的罐子是故意不含 BPA、BPS 和 PFAS 的。
That we had tested, and might be happy-
我们已经测试过，并且可能会很高兴-
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to send you the results.
向您发送结果。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I already know.
我已经知道了。
I already knew about that.
我已经知道了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, because I know that you and I are both...
是的，因为我知道你和我都是...
I am wary of the BPAs and the rest.
我对 BPA 和其他内容持谨慎态度。
I think it's wild that 10 years ago, people like Charles Poliquin were saying, "Don't handle receipts," and-
我认为 10 年前，像 Charles Poliquin 这样的人说“不要处理收据”，而且——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and everyone was like, "This is really kooky." Or actually, back then, no one even heard what he was saying.
每个人都说，“这真的很奇怪。”或者说，当时根本没有人听到他在说什么。
It was such a niche thing.
这是一个非常小众的事情。
Then people were very, I think, disparaging of people saying, "Be wary of receipts." Now, I think the microplastics and the BPA, BPS, PFAS concern is really taking hold more broadly.
我认为，当时人们非常蔑视那些说“小心收据”的人。现在，我认为微塑料和 BPA、BPS、PFAS 的担忧确实得到了更广泛的关注。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think the tables have turned.
我认为形势已经发生了转变。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And really obviously you can't eliminate them completely.
很明显你无法完全消除它们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It's impossible.
这是不可能的。
They're everywhere.
他们无处不在。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
They're everywhere.
他们无处不在。
We're-
我们是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Clothing, I heard, is the main-
我听说，服装是主要的——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It's the main source of microplastics in the ocean.
它是海洋中微塑料的主要来源。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Right?
对吗？
Because we're washing our clothes-
因为我们正在洗衣服-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
and this cute shirt that I'm wearing, it's got microplastics in it for sure.
我穿的这件可爱的衬衫里肯定含有微塑料。
And so every time you're washing your clothes, all the microplastics are coming out and getting into the ocean.
所以每次你洗衣服时，所有的微塑料都会出来并进入海洋。
And also then when you put your clothes in the dryer-
然后当你把衣服放进烘干机时——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
and if your dryer is ventilating anywhere in your house-
如果您的烘干机在家里的任何地方通风-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
you're breathing those in, the microplastics.
你吸入的是微塑料。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They sell these traps.
他们出售这些陷阱。
When I did the episode on microplastics, I found out that online you can...
当我制作关于微塑料的剧集时，我发现在网上你可以......
I think it costs, it's not cheap cheap, but considering they last a while, I think they're somewhere with refills, somewhere in the neighborhood of, I want to say something like $70, but it supposedly traps the microplastics.
我认为它很贵，并不便宜，但考虑到它们能持续一段时间，我认为它们在某个有补充装的地方，在附近的某个地方，我想说大约 70 美元，但据说它会捕获微塑料。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
In the washing machine.
在洗衣机里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In the washing machine.
在洗衣机里。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yes.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And in Europe, I think this is actually built-in or is required in a number of countries.
在欧洲，我认为这实际上是内置的，或者是许多国家所必需的。
They're way ahead of us.
他们远远领先于我们。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
They're always the...
他们永远是最...
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're way ahead of us on a number of things.
他们在很多事情上都远远领先于我们。
On a few things they're far behind, I must say, with respect to health, but on many things, they are way ahead of us.
我必须说，在健康方面，他们在一些事情上远远落后，但在很多事情上，他们远远领先于我们。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, clearly with the people in Switzerland, 88% of them being physically active, they're way ahead of us on that.
嗯，很明显，瑞士人中有 88% 的人经常锻炼身体，他们在这方面远远领先于我们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm excited to share with you that Matina, the yerba mate drink that I helped create, is now available at Sprouts market nationwide.
我很高兴与大家分享，我帮助创造的马黛茶饮料 Matina 现已在全国 Sprouts 市场上市。
Longtime listeners of the Huberman Lab podcast know that yerba mate is my preferred caffeine source.
胡伯曼实验室播客的长期听众都知道马黛茶是我最喜欢的咖啡因来源。
It provides a smooth energy lift without giving you the jitters, and it has many other benefits, such as helping regulate blood sugar, improving digestion, mild appetite suppression, and more.
它可以平稳地提升能量，不会让您感到紧张，而且还有许多其他好处，例如帮助调节血糖、改善消化、轻度抑制食欲等等。
Matina is my absolute favorite of all the yerba mate brands out there.
在所有马黛茶品牌中，马蒂娜绝对是我最喜欢的。
And believe me, I've tried them all.
相信我，我已经尝试过所有这些。
The flavors are fantastic.
味道棒极了。
I drink at least three cans of Matina every single day.
我每天至少喝三罐 Matina。
You'll often see them on the table during our podcast recordings.
在我们的播客录制过程中，您经常会在桌子上看到它们。
I absolutely love the product, and I'm proud to now have it sold at Sprouts market.
我非常喜欢这个产品，我很自豪现在它在豆芽市场上出售。
Also, there's a great new offer.
此外，还有一个很棒的新优惠。
They are giving away a free can of Matina to anyone who buys it at Sprouts and sends in a photo of their receipt.
他们向在 Sprouts 购买并发送收据照片的任何人免费赠送一罐 Matina。
To learn more about how you can get a free can of Matina, go to drinkmatina.com/offer.
要了解有关如何免费获得一罐 Matina 的更多信息，请访问 Drinkmatina.com/offer。
Again, that's drinkmatina.com/offer to get a can of Matina for free at your local Sprouts market.
再次强调，您可以通过 Drinkmatina.com/offer 在当地的豆芽市场免费获得一罐 Matina。
What is your threshold for you, and what do you think is reasonable levels of what's actionable for you?
您的门槛是什么？您认为对您来说可行的合理水平是多少？
How do you set that?
你如何设置呢？
I think it will help people understand how you're approaching stuff.
我认为这会帮助人们理解你是如何处理事情的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
What's actionable in terms of improving-- what I'm interested in improving my health like versus-
在改善方面什么是可行的——我对改善我的健康感兴趣的是什么——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Without picking any specific example-
不举任何具体例子——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
when you look at the literature and you see, let's take BPC-157.
当你查看文献时你会发现，让我们以 BPC-157 为例。
It's kind of a fun one-
这是一个有趣的事情——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Okay
好的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because everyone's excited about this now, except the physicians, who don't like working with peptides besides GLPs or other FDA-approved peptides.
因为现在每个人都对此感到兴奋，除了医生，他们不喜欢使用除 GLP 或其他 FDA 批准的肽之外的肽。
They're freaking out online-
他们在网上疯了——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Okay
好的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I hear from them all the time.
我一直收到他们的来信。
Compounding pharmacies just got the green light that they're going to be able to do basically whatever except sell Retatrutide, which is under patent.
复合药房刚刚获得批准，除了销售已申请专利的瑞他鲁肽外，他们基本上可以做任何事情。
So there are many animal studies on BPC-157 showing accelerated cartilage growth, nerve growth after injury, and on and on.
因此，许多关于 BPC-157 的动物研究表明，BPC-157 可以加速软骨生长、损伤后神经生长等等。
And angiogenesis, so there's some potential cancer risks there.
还有血管生成，因此存在一些潜在的癌症风险。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
But basically zero human data.
但人类数据基本上为零。
There's one study, it was a weak study, self-report.
有一项研究，这是一项薄弱的研究，自我报告。
There's actually a clinical trial where they-- I'm not making this up, folks, it's BPC enemas, very high dosage, for some sort of bowel disease or bowel inflammation.
实际上有一项临床试验——我不是编造的，伙计们，这是 BPC 灌肠剂，剂量非常高，用于治疗某种肠道疾病或肠道炎症。
And the study was, I don't think the study was completed or something like that.
这项研究是，我认为这项研究尚未完成或类似的事情。
Don't ask me why.
别问我为什么。
No, I'm not making this up.
不，这不是我编造的。
But that's pretty much the only human data that I'm aware of.
但这几乎是我所知道的唯一人类数据。
But tons of people injecting and swallowing BPC and saying, "Yeah, it helped me heal more quickly." How do you think about something like that current condition?
但很多人注射和吞咽 BPC 后说：“是的，它帮助我更快地康复。”您如何看待目前的情况？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
First of all, if you're not doing it, you're not going to be doing this every day forever, right?
首先，如果你不这样做，你就不会永远每天都这样做，对吗？
This is a short, defined period of time where you're going to do your injections.
这是一段短暂的、明确的注射时间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Ideally, yeah.
理想情况下，是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Oh, really?
哦，真的吗？
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Well, then I-
好吧，那么我——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't know what people do.
我不知道人们在做什么。
Unfortunately, I think some people like to take it every day.
不幸的是，我认为有些人喜欢每天服用它。
But let's assume two months maximum to work around an injury-
但我们假设最多两个月的时间来解决伤病问题——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Recovery, yeah
恢复了，是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or through an injury.
或因受伤。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
For the people that I know that have experimented with it-
对于我认识的尝试过它的人来说-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
it's been three months.
已经三个月了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And a period of time, and they did have improvements, and they could've been through placebo, which I will say is possible.
一段时间后，他们确实有所改善，他们可以通过安慰剂，我会说这是可能的。
But for me, it really comes down to is it safe?
但对我来说，这真的归结为安全吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Is it safe?
安全吗？
Okay.
好的。
If it's safe, you obviously have to get the good source, because if it's all these pharmacies now, that's a problem.
如果安全的话，你显然必须获得好的来源，因为如果现在都是这些药房，那就是一个问题。
Because we do know that that's a big area of, I would say, concern with any sort of nutraceutical sort of thing, and I would put this into that category-
因为我们确实知道这是一个很大的领域，我想说的是，与任何种类的营养保健品有关，我会将其归入该类别 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
is that people are putting things in the products that are not necessarily what's supposed to be in there.
是人们在产品中放入的东西不一定是应该存在的东西。
They're not really paying attention to quality because it's not regulated, right?
他们并没有真正关注质量，因为它不受监管，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So, if you can get a good source of it, and you trust the source of it, and you have maybe someone who is qualified to prescribe it to you, because there are naturopaths and stuff like that, functional medicine practitioners.
所以，如果你能找到一个好的来源，并且你信任它的来源，并且你可能有一个有资格给你开药方的人，因为有自然疗法师之类的功能医学从业者。
There are people that are prescribing them.
有人正在开处方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
And some MDs, some board-
还有一些 MD，一些董事会-
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And some MDs, yeah
还有一些医学博士，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
certified-
认证-
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Some MDs are, right
有些医学博士是，对吧
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
did their residency, did all the things.
完成了他们的居住，完成了所有的事情。
I know because-
我知道是因为——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I'm friends with some of them.
我和他们中的一些人是朋友。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And a lot of doctors are happy to prescribe peptides sort of off-label.
许多医生很乐意开出标签外的肽处方。
Like sermorelin for purposes other than what it was FDA-approved for.
就像舍莫林一样，其用途并非 FDA 批准的用途。
I'm not taking it as I mentioned earlier, but-
我不会像我之前提到的那样接受它，但是-
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But you've tried it
但你已经尝试过了
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it very quickly spiked my PSA and nuked my REM sleep and increased my deep sleep.
它很快就提高了我的 PSA，破坏了我的快速眼动睡眠，并增加了我的深度睡眠。
So I was like, "I'm not interested in those effects." And, I do worry about tickling the growth hormone pathway too much or too long-
所以我想，“我对这些效果不感兴趣。”而且，我确实担心生长激素途径会受到刺激太多或太久——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because of, hopefully I don't have any tumors sitting around, but if I do, I don't want to vascularize them or grow them.
因为，希望我周围没有任何肿瘤，但如果有的话，我不想让它们血管化或生长。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Right.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
So for me, I'm always more on the cautious side, to be honest.
所以对我来说，说实话，我总是比较谨慎。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And so for me, the safety thing has to be checked first.
所以对我来说，首先必须检查安全问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And then at that point, if I can check the safety thing, then it's like you said, I'll try it.
然后到那时，如果我可以检查安全性，那么就像你说的那样，我会尝试一下。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I'm doing some of these supplements, MitoPure for one, like the urolithin A.
我正在做一些补充剂，MitoPure 就是其中之一，比如尿石素 A。
There's not tons and tons of data on it-
没有大量的数据-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
but it seems to be safe.
但似乎很安全。
And I'm experimenting with it.
我正在尝试它。
I'm also experimenting with a lot of other things, so it's hard to know what's working.
我还在尝试很多其他的东西，所以很难知道什么是有效的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Nicotinamide riboside is another one I take.
烟酰胺核苷是我服用的另一种药物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Back onto what I take because I finished.
回到我所拿的，因为我已经完成了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is that for a longevity effect?
这是为了达到长寿的效果吗？
I take a sublingual NMN.
我服用舌下 NMN。
No relationship to any company that sells NMN.
与任何销售 NMN 的公司没有关系。
At least the one I take is from, they hate it when I do this, but from Renue by Science.
至少我拿的是来自 Renue by Science 的，他们讨厌我这样做。
It's the cheapest version.
这是最便宜的版本。
That's not why I take it.
这不是我接受它的原因。
I just like the powder, put it under my tongue.
我只是喜欢这种粉末，把它放在舌下。
I like the energy effect.
我喜欢能量效应。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I will say this, and I've done the control experiment on myself, and family members have done it, too.
我就这么说吧，我自己也做过对照实验，家人也做过。
It makes my hair grow crazy fast and my nails grow crazy fast.
它让我的头发长得很快，我的指甲也长得很快。
I know this because if I stop, that halts.
我知道这一点，因为如果我停下来，事情就会停止。
Those aren't really effects I'm looking for.
这些并不是我真正想要的效果。
And it worries me a little bit Because what else is it making grow crazy fast?
这让我有点担心 因为还有什么能让它快速疯狂？
Again, I don't think I have a tumor, but what else is it, if I have a polyp or something, is it making that grow crazy fast?
再说一次，我不认为我有肿瘤，但还有什么，如果我有息肉或其他东西，它会使其疯狂快速增长吗？
I don't know.
我不知道。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I asked that question to Dr. Charles Brenner when I had him-
当我采访查尔斯·布伦纳博士时，我问了他这个问题——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
on the podcast because there was a study on NMN in mice, that the mice had tumors, and then they gave them, I think they injected them with NMN or maybe it was oral dose.
在播客上，因为有一项针对小鼠 NMN 的研究，小鼠患有肿瘤，然后他们给它们注射了 NMN，我认为他们给它们注射了 NMN，或者可能是口服剂量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I don't remember which way it was, but it accelerated the growth of those rare type of pancreatic cancer cells.
我不记得是哪种方式，但它加速了那些罕见类型的胰腺癌细胞的生长。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And so I was-
所以我是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
obviously energy, yes.
显然是能量，是的。
Cancer cells have energy too, right?
癌细胞也有能量，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Brenner doesn't like NMN.
布伦纳不喜欢 NMN。
And I will take NR sometimes.
有时我也会拿NR。
I do take TruNiagen.
我确实服用 TruNiagen。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Well, it doesn't...
嗯，这并不...
Either way, so the same endpoint here.
无论哪种方式，这里的端点都是相同的。
We're increasing NAD, right?
我们正在增加 NAD，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So the question is then, okay, well, should I be worried about cancer?
那么问题是，好吧，我应该担心癌症吗？
And he pointed me to some study out of Australia where I think it was, maybe it might've been nicotinamide that basically prevented some kind of...
他向我指出了澳大利亚的一些研究，我认为，也许烟酰胺基本上可以防止某种......
It wasn't melanoma, but it was another type-
这不是黑色素瘤，而是另一种类型——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
of skin cancer.
皮肤癌。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And so I was like, "Okay, well that seems sort of-"
所以我想，“好吧，这看起来有点——”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
the point here.
重点在这里。
I am experimenting with it.
我正在尝试它。
Why?
为什么？
First of all, I became interested in it because the effects on mitochondrial health.
首先，我对它感兴趣是因为它对线粒体健康的影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
There was effects on fertility, energy, recovery when I started...
当我开始时，这对生育能力、精力、恢复都有影响……
And then again, you can find a couple of studies where like, maybe you're not as insulin sensitive and who knows?
话又说回来，你可以找到一些研究，比如，也许你对胰岛素不敏感，谁知道呢？
Like it's not-
好像不是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
there's not enough data there, so I would say I'm cautiously-
那里没有足够的数据，所以我会说我很谨慎-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
experimenting with it.
尝试它。
But so far I love it and I don't...
但到目前为止，我很喜欢它，但我不...
Again, you never know what's placebo here.
再说一次，你永远不知道这里的安慰剂是什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I do take, and they don't pay me, I buy it.
所以我确实拿了，他们不付钱给我，我买了它。
I do take TruNiagen, NR.
我服用 TruNiagen，NR。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
That's what I take, yeah.
这就是我的看法，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
NR.
NR。
And on the data sheet, they include some human studies.
在数据表上，它们包括一些人体研究。
I have a family member, I'll just say, my sister takes it.
我有一个家庭成员，我只想说，我姐姐接受了。
She loves it.
她喜欢它。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
She's convinced.
她深信不疑。
Now, that could be placebo.
现在，这可能是安慰剂。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But she is so convinced.
但她就是这么坚信。
She texts me about it.
她发短信告诉我这件事。
"I feel so much better.
“我感觉好多了。
I have so much energy."
我有这么多的能量。”
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So much energy.
这么多的能量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have no idea.
我不知道。
She has no idea if it's placebo, but Brenner's a very good scientist, I will say.
她不知道这是否是安慰剂，但我会说布伦纳是一位非常优秀的科学家。
He's what we call in our business-
他就是我们业内所说的——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you and me, a serious scientist.
你和我，一个严肃的科学家。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I just don't think any of that's going to make me have a direct effect on living longer.
我只是不认为这些会对我的寿命产生直接影响。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I don't know that it is.
我不知道是这样。
I don't know that it's the...
我不知道这是...
It's not one of my like, if I had to shrink down to my core supplements, it wouldn't be in there.
它不是我喜欢的一种，如果我必须缩小到我的核心补充剂，它就不会在那里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And there's many other things that are important, I think, for-
我认为还有很多其他重要的事情——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
So if you were budget limited, it wouldn't get above threshold.
因此，如果您的预算有限，它就不会超过阈值。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like if someone out there had-
就像外面有人-
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
No
否
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
like just 100 bucks or 200 bucks-
比如 100 美元或 200 美元-
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
No
否
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to spend on supplements, they...
为了花在补充剂上，他们...
Which is a lot for a lot of people.
这对很多人来说意义重大。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I don't know that it's going to help you live longer either.
我也不知道它会帮助你活得更久。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Now, it might help with your exercise recovery a bit, right?
现在，它可能对您的运动恢复有所帮助，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It might help improve mitochondrial function.
它可能有助于改善线粒体功能。
Maybe it's going to help with repleting some of the NAD stores.
也许这有助于补充一些 NAD 商店。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
If you can improve mitochondrial health and you're improving things-
如果你能改善线粒体健康并且你正在改善一切-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
like on a small scale, right?
就像小规模的那样，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So mitochondrial health's at the core of everything.
因此，线粒体健康是一切的核心。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So that's something to consider.
所以这是需要考虑的事情。
But yeah, I'm not convinced it's the end all be all either, but I do take it.
但是，是的，我也不相信一切都结束了，但我确实接受了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And it is something I'm experimenting with.
这是我正在尝试的事情。
I think it seems to be safe, and there's a lot of emerging data that caught my interest.
我认为这似乎是安全的，并且有很多新出现的数据引起了我的兴趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But omega-3 is the top, right?
但omega-3是顶级的，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
There's nothing, NAD, the nicotinamide riboside or NMN, if you can find a good source of it, that's not comparable in my books.
没有什么，NAD，烟酰胺核苷或NMN，如果你能找到它的良好来源，那是我的书中无法比拟的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Have you experimented with L-carnitine because of the mitochondrial effects?
您是否因为线粒体效应而尝试过左旋肉碱？
Because I was able to find some good studies on-
因为我能够找到一些很好的研究——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
sperm and egg quality, on mitochondria-
精子和卵子的质量，关于线粒体-
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which are thought to be downstream-
被认为是下游-
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of mitochondrial health.
线粒体健康。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Right.
对。
It sounds true.
听起来确实如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's the idea.
就是这个想法。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
If you can improve mitochondrial health, fertility, which is why NR-
如果你能改善线粒体健康、生育能力，这就是为什么 NR-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
is now involved with fertility.
现在涉及生育。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It seems to be improving fertility.
它似乎正在提高生育能力。
It's, right, if you can improve mitochondrial health, then you're going to improve fertility, sperm health, right, egg health, right?
是的，如果你能改善线粒体健康，那么你就能改善生育能力、精子健康，对吧，卵子健康，对吗？
Yeah, L-carnitine, a lot of those studies came out of my mentor's lab, Burr Same.
是的，左旋肉碱，很多研究都来自我导师 Burr Same 的实验室。
So he looked at the combination of L-carnitine and alpha-lipoic acid improving mitochondrial health.
因此，他研究了左旋肉碱和α-硫辛酸的组合如何改善线粒体健康。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And came up with the supplement that, it's called Juvenon now, but it's L-carnitine with alpha-lipoic acid.
并提出了补充品，它现在被称为Juvenon，但它是左旋肉碱和α-硫辛酸。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a pill.
这是一颗药丸。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It's a supplement.
这是一个补充。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And so yes, I have experimented with that.
是的，我已经尝试过了。
And in fact, my husband takes it.
事实上，我丈夫接受了它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But I just can't take so many supplements.
但我就是吃不了那么多补品。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So we have-
所以我们有-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I was just curious.
我只是好奇。
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
we have our...
我们有我们的...
Yeah.
是的。
But you can find evidence that it improves mitochondrial health, so it's just a matter of, again, what are you looking for.
但你可以找到证据表明它可以改善线粒体健康，所以这只是你在寻找什么的问题。
I feel like I'm doing a lot of high intensity interval training too.
我觉得我也做了很多高强度间歇训练。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And I'm taking the Urolithin A.
我正在服用尿石素 A。
That's a lot.
就这么多了。
I'm doing a lot of stuff to optimize mitochondrial health.
我正在做很多事情来优化线粒体健康。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
At some point you have to like not-
在某些时候你必须不喜欢-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
you can't do everything there is.
你无法做所有事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
No, of course not.
不，当然不是。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But yeah, L-carnitine.
但是，是的，左旋肉碱。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then it's budget limited too.
然后它的预算也有限。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But maybe I should add the L-carnitine in.
但也许我应该添加左旋肉碱。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, no, I'm not saying that.
哦，不，我不是这么说的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It's possible, right?
有可能，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've started experimenting with it.
我已经开始尝试了。
But I take it in injectable form.
但我以注射形式服用。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Really?
真的吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's going to shock some people.
这会让一些人感到震惊。
You can get away with taking much lower milligram count.
您可以通过服用低得多的毫克数来逃脱惩罚。
Otherwise, you have to take a lot of it because a lot of it just isn't absorbed if you take it orally.
否则，你必须服用大量的药物，因为如果你口服的话，很多药物不会被吸收。
And then I was told that if you take it orally, you also have to do something to offset the increase in TMAO, and that worried me.
然后我被告知，如果你口服，你还必须做一些事情来抵消TMAO的增加，这让我很担心。
So I figured needles don't scare me.
所以我想针不会吓到我。
I'll just inject it.
我就注射一下吧
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Interesting.
有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
The TMAO thing, so it depends on your gut bacteria-
TMAO 的事情，所以这取决于你的肠道细菌 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
whether or not you're metabolizing the L-carnitine-
无论您是否正在代谢左旋肉碱-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
into TMAO.
进入TMAO。
There's actually a lot of-
其实有很多——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
complexity involved in that whole thing.
整个事情的复杂性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But you can get your TMAO measured.
但您可以测量 TMAO。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So if you were supplementing with it...
所以如果你补充它......
The same goes for choline.
胆碱也是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
If you're worried, like choline can be converted into TMAO, right?
如果您担心，胆碱可以转化为TMAO，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I'll take Alpha-GPC before a workout sometimes, or if I ever need to focus late in the day, I don't want caffeine because it impedes my sleep.
有时我会在锻炼前服用 Alpha-GPC，或者如果我需要在一天中晚些时候集中注意力，我不想要咖啡因，因为它会妨碍我的睡眠。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I'll take Alpha-GPC, because this is kind of a cool effect.
但我会选择 Alpha-GPC，因为这是一种很酷的效果。
Alpha-GPC actually will improve your REM sleep.
Alpha-GPC 实际上会改善您的快速眼动睡眠。
It's not a huge effect.
这并不是一个巨大的影响。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But you'll notice you'll get more REM sleep.
但您会发现您将获得更多的快速眼动睡眠。
So it's one of the few things I've found that can increase energy late in the day, do a workout or work if I have to work later into the day, still sleep just fine, and actually sleep better.
因此，这是我发现的少数可以在一天晚些时候增加能量的事情之一，如果我必须在当天晚些时候工作，那么进行锻炼或工作，仍然可以睡得很好，而且实际上睡得更好。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
What does work later into the day mean for you?
晚些时候工作对你来说意味着什么？
Like working until like 8:00, 9:00 o'clock or later?
喜欢工作到 8:00、9:00 或更晚吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, well, I do that often.
是的，嗯，我经常这样做。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Anyway.
无论如何。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I don't like to work out after 2:00 PM because I like caffeine before I work out.
但我不喜欢在下午 2:00 之后锻炼，因为我喜欢在锻炼前喝咖啡因。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I'll do some cardio in the afternoon or something.
但下午我会做一些有氧运动什么的。
But if I really have to push, push, push, or if I've traveled and I really need exercise and I want to get a 6:00 PM workout, but I also want to fall asleep at 10:30, I'll take some Alpha-GPC.
但如果我真的必须努力、努力、努力，或者如果我旅行过并且我确实需要锻炼并且我想在下午 6:00 锻炼，但我也想在 10:30 入睡，我会服用一些 Alpha-GPC。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I used to take that.
我以前也这么认为。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I don't know, it's been maybe like 10 years.
我不知道，大概有10年了吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It's interesting.
这很有趣。
I might try experimenting with that again.
我可能会再次尝试尝试。
I'm always looking for things that I find a little bit safer.
我一直在寻找一些我认为更安全的东西。
I don't do the nicotine, as you know.
如你所知，我不吸尼古丁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It is shocking how many young people are taking nicotine now.
现在有多少年轻人服用尼古丁，这令人震惊。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Oh, I know.
哦，我知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I've never tried it.
我从来没有尝试过。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
First of all, it's highly addictive.
首先，它很容易让人上瘾。
Forget the blood pressure and the vasoconstriction.
忘记血压和血管收缩。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's all bad.
这一切都不好。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think the big issue is that if I take it, I start getting this spasming in my throat when I don't take it, and that's because of its...
我认为最大的问题是，如果我服用它，当我不服用它时，我的喉咙就会开始痉挛，这是因为它......
I have a friend who works on these pathways, and it's because of the activation of the muscarinic receptors.
我有一个朋友正在研究这些途径，这是因为毒蕈碱受体的激活。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So on smooth muscle, you start getting a tick and kind of a clearing of your throat, and then you take more nicotine, you feel fine.
所以在平滑肌上，你开始感到蜱虫和清喉咙的感觉，然后你摄入更多的尼古丁，你感觉很好。
So I didn't want to become dependent on it.
所以我不想变得依赖它。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I don't like it.
我不喜欢它。
I think it's a bad habit that a lot of people are going to be seeking to quit later.
我认为这是一个很多人稍后都会寻求戒掉的坏习惯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
A lot of young people.
很多年轻人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Older people might benefit from it because of the cognitive enhancement, but that's a whole other story.
老年人可能会因为认知能力的增强而受益，但那是另一回事了。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Well, maybe the Alpha-GPC and the creatine-
好吧，也许是 Alpha-GPC 和肌酸-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
magnesium L-threonate.
L-苏糖酸镁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Alpha-GPC is very helpful for if you need to really lock in for a few hours and do something physically.
如果您需要真正锁定几个小时并做一些体力活动，Alpha-GPC 非常有帮助。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
What dose?
什么剂量？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I take 600 milligrams.
我服用 600 毫克。
You can take up to 900, but I do just fine on 600.
你最多可以拿900，但我拿600就可以了。
So I think I just take it in pure form in-
所以我想我只是以纯粹的形式来看待它——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Okay
好的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a capsule.
一个胶囊。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Any of them out there that come from a reputable brand is going to work.
任何来自知名品牌的产品都可以使用。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
What about before a podcast or something like that?
在播客或类似的事情之前怎么样？
Does it have any effect, or why-
有没有效果，或者为什么-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It does?
是吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
If you feel like you want to be heightened focus, but I rely on water, caffeine, electrolytes, and good sleep.
如果你想提高注意力，但我依靠水、咖啡因、电解质和良好的睡眠。
There's this wild study.
这是一项疯狂的研究。
I don't want to take us too far off track here.
我不想让我们偏离轨道太远。
But there's a study out of Wash U recently, really talented researcher.
但华盛顿大学最近进行了一项研究，这是一位非常有才华的研究人员。
I want to bring him on this podcast.
我想让他加入这个播客。
Does brain imaging, and he compared essentially the effects of drugs for ADHD versus a good night's sleep, and basically found that there's no focus enhancement of Adderall, Vyvanse, Ritalin-type drugs.
做了脑成像，他基本上比较了治疗多动症的药物与良好睡眠的效果，基本上发现Adderall、Vyvanse、Ritalin类药物没有增强注意力的作用。
They mainly looked at Ritalin.
他们主要看的是利他林。
All it's doing is increasing alertness to the level that you would get after a good night's sleep.
它所做的只是将警觉性提高到一夜好眠后的水平。
It may be that these drugs just increase alertness, which allows you to dial in to focus.
这些药物可能只是提高警觉性，让你集中注意力。
But if you're sleeping well and enough, you make up the gap, and people with ADHD might just be having some serious sleep defects.
但如果你的睡眠质量足够好，你就能弥补这一差距，而患有注意力缺陷多动症的人可能只是有一些严重的睡眠缺陷。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, it speaks to this thing, I don't know that there's a single drug that can actually increase cognition and focus.
所以，它说明了这一点，我不知道有一种药物可以真正提高认知和注意力。
Most of them probably just get you in the plane of alertness that allows you to dial in your focus.
其中大多数可能只是让你保持警觉，让你集中注意力。
Some people will be like, "Ah, that's BS." They take modafinil, but this is just another form of increasing alertness.
有些人会说，“啊，那是胡说八道。”他们服用莫达非尼，但这只是提高警觉性的另一种形式。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Well, reducing anxiety, I think things that are anxiolytic help with that as well.
嗯，减少焦虑，我认为抗焦虑的东西也有帮助。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And I think I was talking about, I don't know if I was telling you or someone else before the podcast, one of the reasons why I also like that metabolic switch with the ketosis and the beta-hydroxybutyrate, and sometimes I'll take exogenous ketones, too.
我想我正在谈论，我不知道我是否在播客之前告诉过你或其他人，这是我也喜欢酮症和β-羟基丁酸代谢转换的原因之一，有时我也会服用外源性酮。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Although, if you take them in a fasted state, it kind of shuts down the lipolysis.
不过，如果你在禁食状态下服用它们，它会阻止脂肪分解。
But anyways, it's because it increases GABA.
但无论如何，这是因为它增加了 GABA。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
The beta-hydroxybutyrate increases GABA, and for me, it's beneficial because I am the phenotype where I can have other things going on in my mind that it's not anxiety, but it's more of that anxious phenotype, if that makes sense.
β-羟基丁酸会增加 GABA，对我来说，这是有益的，因为我的表型可以让我的脑海中发生其他事情，这不是焦虑，但更多的是焦虑表型，如果这是有道理的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And so the increase in GABA really does help me with focus because it's quieting down, I think.
因此，GABA 的增加确实有助于我集中注意力，因为我认为它正在安静下来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I actually think that a lot of people who are very intellectually engaged, which clearly you are over many years, and very physically active and healthy, there's a lot of capacity there, and unless there's something to really absorb all that capacity, you can get multiple tracks going.
事实上，我认为很多人都非常智力投入，显然你已经工作了很多年，而且身体非常活跃且健康，他们有很大的能力，除非有什么东西可以真正吸收所有这些能力，否则你可以让多个轨道继续下去。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we sometimes think of that as anxiety or even some people will say it's ADHD.
我们有时认为这是焦虑，甚至有些人会说这是多动症。
I don't necessarily think it's that, but it's an uncomfortable state to be in.
我不一定这么认为，但这是一种不舒服的状态。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's so pleasureful to be where all one's resources, physical or cognitive or both, are harnessed.
能够利用自己所有的资源，无论是身体上的还是认知上的，或者两者兼而有之，真是太令人高兴了。
It's a very pleasant state.
这是一种非常愉快的状态。
Earlier, you were saying the GABA increased from the ketosis.
早些时候，您说 GABA 因酮症而增加。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think more and more we're just realizing that people have differing levels of excitatory to inhibitory balance in the brain, and so some people like things that bring GABA up.
我认为我们越来越意识到人们大脑中的兴奋性与抑制性平衡水平不同，因此有些人喜欢能提高 GABA 的东西。
Some people like things that bring glutamate up-
有些人喜欢增加谷氨酸含量的东西-
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
broadly speaking.
从广义上讲。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And finding that sweet spot is where you go, "Oh, I'm alert but calm."
找到最佳点就是你会说：“哦，我很警觉但很平静。”
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that's what we want.
这就是我们想要的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
That's what it does for me.
这就是它对我的作用。
Alert-
警报-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Awesome
太棒了
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
but calm.
但冷静。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And for me, I noticed that a few years ago, I really experimented with a ketogenic diet.
对我来说，我注意到几年前，我确实尝试过生酮饮食。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I just can't do that type of diet, but I did experiment with it, and that was one of the main things that I noticed is I'm alert but calm, and it was like I liked it.
我只是做不到那种类型的饮食，但我确实尝试过，这是我注意到的主要事情之一，我很警觉但很平静，而且就像我喜欢它一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Well, then don't take nicotine, because the reason people like nicotine is it's a stimulant that calms you down.
好吧，那就不要服用尼古丁，因为人们喜欢尼古丁的原因是它是一种能让你平静下来的兴奋剂。
So I do think that one of the reasons it's so habit-forming is because I know of nothing else that puts you in that plane of focus, of alert but calm, that is reasonably low cost, that is legal.
所以我确实认为它如此容易形成的原因之一是因为我不知道还有什么能让你处于那种集中注意力、警觉但冷静的状态，这是相当低的成本，这是合法的。
I've never done amphetamine or cocaine-
我从来没有吸过安非他明或可卡因-
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
so I wouldn't want to, and clearly, that's a path to destruction.
所以我不想，而且显然，这是一条通往毁灭的道路。
So the reason so many young people are taking it is because it gets them right in that plane of alert but calm, but it has all these negative effects that go with it.
因此，这么多年轻人服用它的原因是因为它让他们处于警觉但平静的状态，但它也带来了所有这些随之而来的负面影响。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And that's why I have stayed away from it, because I know I'd probably love it.
这就是为什么我远离它，因为我知道我可能会喜欢它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've asked some young folks who ask me about nicotine, "How many milligrams are you taking?" They'll say, "Nine milligrams." I'll say, "How many times per day?" And they'll say, "Eight times per day." I'm like, "Oh my God.
我问过一些向我询问尼古丁问题的年轻人，“你服用了多少毫克？”他们会说：“九毫克。”我会说：“一天几次？”他们会说：“每天八次。”我就像，“天啊。
That's crazy."
这太疯狂了。”
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But they didn't start there.
但他们并不是从那里开始的。
Do you have-
你有没有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, you just quickly get there.
不，你只要快点到达那里即可。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
You adapt.
你适应。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
So I don't want to sound like that curmudgeon that's like, "Don't drink, and don't take nicotine," and this kind of thing, but it's a slippery slope.
所以我不想听起来像那种脾气暴躁的人，比如“不要喝酒，不要服用尼古丁”之类的话，但这是一个滑坡。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Right.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a really slippery slope.
这真是一个滑坡。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
There's other things that you can do that maybe it's not going to be as potent, but like-
你还可以做其他事情，也许效果不会那么有效，但比如——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Alpha-GPC.
阿尔法-GPC。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Alpha-GPC.
阿尔法-GPC。
And for me, I like my metabolic switch and my ketones and-
对我来说，我喜欢我的代谢开关和酮，还有-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Nice.
不错。
Well, I'd be curious to hear how you feel on the Alpha-GPC.
好吧，我很想听听您对 Alpha-GPC 的感受。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I remember liking it.
我记得很喜欢。
I don't know why.
我不知道为什么。
I think I stopped taking it because I got pregnant, is probably what it was.
我想我停止服用它是因为我怀孕了，可能就是这样。
And then I just-
然后我就——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a good reason
这是一个很好的理由
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
it's one of those things where you just-
这是你只需要做的事情之一——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
forget.
忘记了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
You go back to the basics and then like the-
你回到基础知识，然后喜欢-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Different experiment.
不同的实验。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Before I came on here, I did put out a call for some questions to the world.
在我来到这里之前，我确实向全世界发出了一些问题的呼吁。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Rapid fire Q&A from the land of X and Instagram.
来自 X 和 Instagram 土地的快速问答。
I'll- These are the students of the class-
我会-这些是班上的学生-
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of your class.
你们班的。
And that's the way I think about it.
这就是我的想法。
Actually, I wanted to ask about this, so I'm so grateful that this person asked about nattokinase for improving blood lipid profiles.
其实我想问这个问题，所以很感谢这个人问纳豆激酶改善血脂的问题。
Is it something you're interested in or have experimented with?
这是您感兴趣或尝试过的东西吗？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It's not something that I've experimented with, and I've been more interested in natto, the nattokinase.
这不是我尝试过的东西，我对纳豆、纳豆激酶更感兴趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I really would have to say I don't have enough data to really have an opinion on it.
我真的不得不说我没有足够的数据来真正对此发表意见。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Well, I don't have enough data to have an opinion on it, but I take it anyway.
好吧，我没有足够的数据来对此发表意见，但我还是接受了。
Lot of questions about things we already talked about, so cold plunge, et cetera, but an exceptional number of questions about microplastics.
关于我们已经讨论过的事情有很多问题，例如冷跳水等等，但关于微塑料的问题数量非常多。
And I know we touched into it, but on a scale of one to 10, 10 being you're really concerned, how concerned are you about microplastics for mental and physical health, longevity, just broadly speaking?
我知道我们已经触及了这个问题，但从 1 到 10 的范围来看，10 表示您真的很关心，您对微塑料对身心健康、长寿（广义而言）的关心程度如何？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I would say I am less concerned about microplastics than I am about not getting the right nutrients and micronutrients from our foods.
我想说的是，我对微塑料的担忧不如对无法从食物中获取正确的营养素和微量营养素的担忧。
Because our body can detoxify at least some of the chemicals associated with them.
因为我们的身体至少可以解毒一些与之相关的化学物质。
The microplastics themselves, I guess we don't really know what they're going to do long term.
就微塑料本身而言，我想我们并不真正知道它们的长期用途。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But I'm concerned enough to try to limit my exposure to them as much as possible.
但我非常担心，因此尝试尽可能限制与它们的接触。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
So you don't drink out of plastic water bottles?
所以你不喝塑料水瓶吗？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I try not to as much as possible.
我尽量不这样做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I definitely-
我绝对——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure
当然可以
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
have to at some points, but I try not to, yes.
在某些时候必须这样做，但我尽量不这样做，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And when I do, I just realize it's the habit-
当我这么做的时候，我才意识到这就是习惯——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
and you kind of have to let go.
你必须放手。
I know some people that don't drink.
我认识一些不喝酒的人。
They're going to get their water from their food, their fruits while they're traveling.
他们在旅行时将从食物和水果中获取水。
Pretty extreme.
相当极端。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
But I think mental health is important.
但我认为心理健康很重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So is the stress of avoiding the microplastics worse than the actual little bit of microplastics you're being exposed to?
那么，避免接触微塑料所带来的压力是否比实际接触到的一点点微塑料更严重呢？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It might be.
可能是这样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
TSA is going to hate me, but I lost a bet two days ago to a member of our podcast team.
TSA 会恨我的，但两天前我输给了我们播客团队的一名成员。
He bet me, we bet, that...
他和我打赌，我们打赌，...
I said one couldn't bring a Mountain Valley Spring Water bottle through security at the airport, and he said that you absolutely can, and I said there's no way.
我说机场安检不能带山谷矿泉水一瓶，他说绝对可以，我说没办法。
So I made him a bet and I lost.
于是我跟他打赌，结果我输了。
He brought it through.
他成功了。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Full of water?
满水了？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Full of water.
充满了水。
You tell them it's for medical reasons.
你告诉他们这是出于医疗原因。
You don't have to state what they are.
您不必说明它们是什么。
They open the cap, they take a sample out, they test it.
他们打开盖子，取出样品，进行测试。
So there's a time constraint, and it's going to create more jobs for TSA.
因此，存在时间限制，这将为 TSA 创造更多就业机会。
Sorry, that was sort of a joke, sort of not a joke.
抱歉，这有点像个玩笑，又不像个玩笑。
TSA has been in-
TSA 已在 -
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
tricky circumstances lately.
最近的情况很棘手。
And he showed up at the gate with it and was like, "Here's your water." You absolutely can bring water through in glass vessels or whatever vessel, but they're going to test it, and it helps if it's a commercial vessel.
他拿着水出现在门口，说道：“这是你的水。”你绝对可以用玻璃容器或任何容器将水带入，但他们会对其进行测试，如果是商业容器，这会有所帮助。
It's not like your own glass water bottle.
它不像你自己的玻璃水瓶。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Can I pause for a minute?
我可以暂停一下吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Because you mentioned a specific brand-
因为你提到了一个特定的品牌-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
which I also, when I travel-
当我旅行时，我也这样——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
No, I don't make money from them.
不，我不从他们那里赚钱。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Right.
对。
Same.
相同的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
When I'm traveling, that's the brand that I go to.
当我旅行时，这就是我去的品牌。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And there was a study that came out showing that there's actually a larger volume of microplastics, within this study, from glass bottles versus plastic bottles-
有一项研究表明，在这项研究中，与塑料瓶相比，玻璃瓶中实际上含有更多的微塑料——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Ah
啊
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
which was a very shocking finding.
这是一个非常令人震惊的发现。
So there's more microplastic number-
所以微塑料的数量更多-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
coming from the glass bottles.
来自玻璃瓶。
It turns out, this was a study out of France.
事实证明，这是法国的一项研究。
There was a study out of France and also in the US.
法国和美国都有一项研究。
It's the paint on the lids.
这是盖子上的油漆。
You mentioned the lid, and so it's the paint on the lid that's getting contaminated in the whole bottling of this water that is getting into the water.
你提到了盖子，所以盖子上的油漆在整个瓶装水进入水中时受到了污染。
But I do want to mention that the size was shown to be larger from the glass bottles versus the plastic.
但我确实想提一下，玻璃瓶的尺寸比塑料瓶的尺寸要大。
So the microplastic size was larger, and as you probably know, larger microplastics are not well absorbed through the gut epithelial cells.
因此，微塑料的尺寸更大，而且您可能知道，较大的微塑料不能很好地被肠道上皮细胞吸收。
So when you're taking them in, in the gut, they're coming out, they're being excreted through your feces-
所以当你把它们摄入肠道时，它们就会出来，通过你的粪便排出体外——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
and less likely to be taken up into your gut and then get into your body, and that's actually well known.
而且不太可能被你的肠道吸收然后进入你的身体，这实际上是众所周知的。
And so I'm actually more concerned about the size of microplastics.
所以我实际上更关心微塑料的大小。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And it wasn't like the huge orders of magnitude difference between the water from glass versus the plastic.
这并不像玻璃水和塑料水之间存在巨大的数量级差异。
It's so counterintuitive.
这太违反直觉了。
You think, wait, what?
你想，等等，什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Why is it...
为什么是...
So it's the paint that's-
所以这就是油漆——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting
有趣
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
on the lids.
在盖子上。
But anyways, I just wanted to mention that I still drink when I'm traveling.
但无论如何，我只是想提一下，我在旅行时仍然喝酒。
I still go for the glass, not the plastic, because of the size of the microplastics-
我仍然选择玻璃，而不是塑料，因为微塑料的尺寸 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
and knowing because the size was much bigger, that it's very...
并且知道因为尺寸更大，所以它非常......
I would say more data's going to come out on this, but I would be surprised if you're absorbing more of the larger particles because it's known that you absorb the smaller ones.
我想说更多的数据将会出现，但如果你吸收更多的较大颗粒，我会感到惊讶，因为众所周知你会吸收较小的颗粒。
Anyway.
反正。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for that.
谢谢你。
And if you want, you can now take your glass bottle through security full.
如果您愿意，您现在可以带着玻璃瓶通过安检。
Seed oils, the dreaded seed oil debate.
种子油，可怕的种子油争论。
Where do you land on this?
你对此有何看法？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I try to avoid them-
我试着避开他们——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
mostly because, one, if you're avoiding seed oils, you're going to avoid a lot of the processed packaged foods that they come in, which I know are terrible for you.
主要是因为，第一，如果你避免使用种子油，你就会避免使用它们所含的许多加工包装食品，我知道这对你来说很糟糕。
Two, because I think that cooking them or heating them is more of my concern because they are polyunsaturated fatty acids, which are very prone to oxidation, and when you're heating something that's prone to oxidation, you're accelerating that whole process.
第二，因为我认为烹饪或加热它们是我更关心的，因为它们是多不饱和脂肪酸，很容易氧化，当你加热容易氧化的东西时，你正在加速整个过程。
I don't want to consume oxidized lipids.
我不想消耗氧化脂质。
I've looked into that literature, and the last time I looked into it was, I think, 2024.
我研究过那些文献，我认为我上次研究它是在 2024 年。
At that time, I was pretty convinced that if you are heating and reheating oils like they do in fast food, for sure you're increasing inflammatory markers.
当时，我非常确信，如果你像快餐中那样加热和重新加热油，那么肯定会增加炎症标记物。
That's been shown.
这已经被证明了。
And I think also when you're really having a higher level of omega-6s and stuff around, I'm not as concerned because I'm getting a lot of omega-3, but it does also increase your vitamin E requirements as well because of the oxidation of these polyunsaturated fatty acids.
而且我认为，当您确实拥有较高水平的 omega-6 等物质时，我并不那么担心，因为我摄入了大量的 omega-3，但它也会增加您对维生素 E 的需求，因为这些多不饱和脂肪酸会被氧化。
So do I think it's the worst ever?
那么我认为这是有史以来最糟糕的吗？
You can find all this data out there showing that if you replace saturated fat with some of these seed oils, there's improvements in lipid profiles.
您可以找到所有这些数据，表明如果您用其中一些种子油代替饱和脂肪，血脂状况就会得到改善。
But at the end of the day, the question ...
但归根结底，问题是......
is really what if you had olive oil instead, or avocado oil instead, would it be even better?
如果你用橄榄油代替，或者用鳄梨油代替，会不会更好？
I think possibly so.
我想可能是这样。
If you're really trying to go for the optimum, I avoid them as much as I can for that reason.
如果你真的想达到最佳效果，出于这个原因，我会尽可能避免它们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But I think there's a little bit more hype when it comes to the seed oil.
但我认为对于种子油的炒作有点多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But if that makes sense, that's my take.
但如果这是有道理的，那就是我的看法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Makes sense to me.
对我来说很有意义。
For what it's worth, I stick to olive oil and-
不管怎样，我坚持使用橄榄油并且-
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Same
一样
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
small amounts of butter, and that's because I also think seed oils taste terrible.
少量黄油，那是因为我也认为种子油味道很糟糕。
How come no one talks about that?
怎么没人谈论这个？
But anyway.
但无论如何。
And olive oil-
还有橄榄油——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It's been so long
已经过去这么久了
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and butter are delicious.
和黄油很好吃。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It's been so long-
已经过去这么久了——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
since I've actually, like-
因为我实际上，喜欢-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Ugh
呃
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
had the-
有-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Ugh
呃
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
seed oil, but yeah.
种子油，但是是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Ugh.
呃。
And no one can convince me that they don't taste bad to me, so then the debate just kind of falls away.
没有人能让我相信它们对我来说味道不错，所以争论就这样消失了。
How often are you doing the sauna nowadays, and what does the top contour of that protocol look like?
您现在多久洗一次桑拿？该方案的顶部轮廓是什么样的？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So I've taken a little pause on the sauna right now, but typically I was doing it like I would say five nights a week.
所以我现在稍微暂停了一下桑拿，但通常我会像每周五个晚上那样做。
And I say nights because I was usually doing them in the night.
我说晚上是因为我通常在晚上做。
And it was a mixture between either getting in the sauna or hot tub.
这是桑拿浴室或热水浴缸的混合体。
So I like getting in the hot tub, head out under the stars there with my husband.
所以我喜欢泡在热水浴缸里，和我丈夫一起在星空下散步。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Nice.
不错。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
It's like our time.
这就像我们的时代。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Awesome.
太棒了。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So yeah.
所以是的。
Usually it's like 20 minutes, and temperature-wise, I don't go that hot.
通常是20分钟左右，而且就温度而言，我不会那么热。
Honestly, I'm like 180.
说实话，我180多了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Five nights a week is great.
每周五个晚上很棒。
Gosh, I need to get back on a-
天哪，我需要回到——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I know
我知道
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
five night a week sauna-
每周五个晚上桑拿-
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I need to get, yeah
我需要得到，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or hot tub protocol.
或热水浴缸协议。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
I do like the hot tub especially.
我特别喜欢热水浴缸。
I don't know, there's something about being outside and I think now there's evidence that the benefits are really the same.
我不知道，户外活动确实有一些好处，而且我认为现在有证据表明，户外活动的好处确实是相同的。
It's the-
这是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
deliberate heat exposure, right?
故意暴露在高温下，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
You're getting that through the hot tub or through the sauna.
你可以通过热水浴缸或桑拿浴室来获得它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Creatine for kids, like young kids-
肌酸适合儿童，例如年幼的孩子 -
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
like younger than 16.
比如16岁以下。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Any data and/or ideas about this, good or bad?
关于此的任何数据和/或想法，好还是坏？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So there is data in the literature showing that if you give younger children that are doing, for example, sports like soccer, it does seem to improve their agility.
因此，文献中的数据表明，如果让年幼的孩子进行足球等运动，似乎确实会提高他们的敏捷性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And it seems to be safe.
而且似乎很安全。
I do give my son two and a half grams of creatine, so a day.
我每天给我儿子两克半肌酸。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Cool.
酷。
I think that's-
我认为那是——
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So that's how I feel.
这就是我的感受。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's no better indication of how-
没有更好的迹象表明如何-
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
one feels than what they're willing to deliberately give their kids.
人们的感受比他们愿意刻意给予孩子的东西要多。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't know where this stems from, and we can cut it if you want, but someone asked, "Why did you single-handedly ruin bananas?"
我不知道这是从哪里来的，如果你愿意的话我们可以把它砍掉，但有人问：“为什么你一个人毁了香蕉？”
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For this person.
对于这个人来说。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Did you ruin bananas?
你毁了香蕉吗？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
So I used to put bananas in my smoothies.
所以我过去常常在冰沙里放香蕉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And there's an enzyme that is produced in bananas that break down polyphenols, particularly ones that are found in blueberries.
香蕉中产生的一种酶可以分解多酚，尤其是蓝莓中的多酚。
And the reason I was getting my smoothies was one, for the greens, but two, for the blueberries-
我买冰沙的原因一是为了绿色蔬菜，二是为了蓝莓——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
...
...
because the polyphenols have been shown to improve cognition.
因为多酚已被证明可以改善认知能力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Love blueberries.
喜欢蓝莓。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Love blueberries.
喜欢蓝莓。
So, sorry, don't mix the blueberry with the banana smoothie because it has been shown to decrease the polyphenols, which are important.
所以，抱歉，不要将蓝莓与香蕉冰沙混合，因为它已被证明可以减少多酚，而多酚很重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, the alcohol industry will come for me someday, and the banana industry will come for you.
好吧，有一天酒精行业会来找我，香蕉行业也会来找你。
And I think we're safe for a while.
我想我们暂时安全了。
Should we ignore studies that have less than X number of subjects?
我们是否应该忽略受试者数量少于 X 的研究？
I think that's a really good question.
我认为这是一个非常好的问题。
Like, obviously, it depends, but when we're talking about human studies, where's the line for small study versus large meaningful study for you?
显然，这取决于情况，但是当我们谈论人类研究时，对您来说小型研究与大型有意义的研究的界限在哪里？
Obviously, how strongly it's powered, but how do you think about that?
显然，它的动力有多强，但你如何看待这一点？
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Well, I'll tell you, when I was first looking at the sauna literature, all the studies that I was looking at were like N of 10 or smaller, and it's really the aggregate of those studies, and then looking at animal data, and then you start to look at observational data and the totality of evidence, and you put together this picture.
好吧，我告诉你，当我第一次看桑拿文献时，我所看的所有研究都是 N 个 10 或更小，它实际上是这些研究的汇总，然后看动物数据，然后你开始看观察数据和证据的整体，然后你把这张图片放在一起。
I don't think you should ignore studies that are small.
我认为你不应该忽视小型研究。
I think that it's part of the story.
我认为这是故事的一部分。
I think we're getting a little too caught up in it's got to be the randomized placebo-controlled trial.
我认为我们有点太沉迷于随机安慰剂对照试验了。
It's got to have lots of participants and that's great if we have that data, but we don't always have that data.
它必须有很多参与者，如果我们有这些数据那就太好了，但我们并不总是有这些数据。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
And I don't know that we will always have that data with everything that we're interested in understanding, right?
我不知道我们将永远拥有这些数据以及我们有兴趣了解的所有内容，对吗？
So the way I look at it is if it's just one study with an N of 10, okay, interesting.
所以我的看法是，如果这只是一项 N 为 10 的研究，好吧，很有趣。
Like with the creatine, right?
就像肌酸一样，对吧？
These studies have been small sample sizes.
这些研究样本量较小。
Now there's more than one.
现在已经不止一个了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
But at the end of the day, it's still very, I would say, in this pilot study phase, right?
但归根结底，我想说的是，它仍然处于试点研究阶段，对吗？
We have just small studies.
我们只有小型研究。
So I do not ignore them, but I also don't hedge all my bets on them either.
所以我不会忽视他们，但我也不会把所有的赌注都押在他们身上。
I do know that there were a lot of people that were criticizing me on my sauna back in 2014, published an article on Tim Ferriss's blog, went on Joe Rogan's podcast, and talked about the benefits of sauna.
我确实知道，早在 2014 年，就有很多人批评我的桑拿，他们在 Tim Ferriss 的博客上发表了一篇文章，上了 Joe Rogan 的播客，并谈论了桑拿的好处。
And I had people that were going, "Your sample sizes are too small." And now we have so much data that has come out since then really kind of validating everything and showing even more benefits.
有人会说，“你们的样本量太小了。”现在我们已经有了如此多的数据，这些数据确实验证了一切并显示出更多的好处。
You kind of have to look at the totality of evidence and what endpoints are you looking at and how can you gather data from different sources, whether it's clinical studies or observational studies or animal studies, and try to come up with the bigger picture, right?
你必须查看证据的整体性以及你正在寻找的终点，以及如何从不同来源收集数据，无论是临床研究、观察性研究还是动物研究，并尝试得出更大的图景，对吗？
But then also don't be too confident in your statements.
但也不要对你的陈述过于自信。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm very gratified to know that pretty much every other question you addressed the answer to en route to where we are now in the podcast, truly, and I'll leave them up so you can see them later if you choose.
我非常高兴地知道，您在播客中提出的几乎所有其他问题都得到了答案，真的，我会将它们保留下来，以便您以后可以选择查看它们。
Cold plunges, notwithstanding vitamin D, exercise in all its contour specificity, fasting, magnesium, lots of questions about supplements, which we covered, creatine, lots of questions about inflammation, longevity, and so I just have to say, first of all, on behalf of everybody, thank you so much.
尽管有维生素 D，但还是要进行冷水浴，锻炼身体的所有轮廓，禁食，镁，关于我们涵盖的补充剂的许多问题，肌酸，关于炎症、长寿的许多问题，所以我不得不说，首先，代表大家，非常感谢。
This was really an incredible tutorial, and so much of it is actionable.
这确实是一个令人难以置信的教程，其中很多内容都是可操作的。
And as you are known for, it was incredibly thorough in terms of setting the context within mechanisms of what we know, what we still don't know.
众所周知，它在我们已知和未知的机制中设置背景方面非常彻底。
And I also personally want to thank you because when you speak, I learn, and when you speak, I also learn things that change my behavior, and that's a whole other level.
我个人也想感谢你，因为当你说话时，我学到了东西，当你说话时，我也学到了改变我行为的东西，这是一个完全不同的层面。
Since our last conversation, I can think of at least- Four and probably as many as a dozen things that I do on a daily basis as a consequence of that conversation, and just the gut inflammation, health, brain-body access conversation that we had earlier.
自从我们上次谈话以来，我可以想起至少四件事，甚至可能多达十几件事，作为那次谈话的结果，我每天都会做一些事情，还有我们之前进行的肠道炎症、健康、大脑-身体访问谈话。
I'm going to listen to this again and take notes because there's just so much there.
我会再听一遍并做笔记，因为里面的内容太多了。
And the metabolic flexibility thing as an input that can come from multiple sources, just on and on.
代谢灵活性作为一种输入，可以来自多个来源，不断涌现。
So thank you for doing what you do.
所以感谢你所做的事情。
Thank you for being you, for being first in and still going and doing things with such rigor and really so much grace.
感谢你做你自己，感谢你成为第一个，并且仍然以如此严格和如此优雅的态度去做事。
It's just awesome.
太棒了。
People love you.
人们爱你。
I certainly do and appreciate you, and it's a wonderful thing for me to have a colleague like you, and you really set the standard.
我当然很欣赏你，有你这样的同事对我来说是一件很棒的事情，而且你确实树立了标准。
So thank you so much for coming here and doing this marathon, and can't wait to do it again.
非常感谢您来到这里参加这次马拉松比赛，并且迫不及待地想再次参加。
Dr. Rhonda Patrick:
朗达·帕特里克博士：
Thank you so much, Andrew.
非常感谢你，安德鲁。
It's really been great.
真的很棒。
I learn so much from you as well and appreciate everything.
我也从你身上学到了很多东西，并且很感激一切。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Rhonda Patrick.
感谢您参加今天与朗达帕特里克博士的讨论。
To learn more about her work, please see the links in the show note captions.
要了解有关她的作品的更多信息，请参阅演出注释标题中的链接。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的关注按钮来关注播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review, and you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您可以给我们留下五星级的评论，现在您可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客或嘉宾有意见，或者您希望我为 Huberman Lab 播客考虑的主题，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这本书是我花了五年多时间编写的，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验。
And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
它涵盖了从睡眠到运动再到压力控制的所有协议，以及与注意力和动机相关的协议，当然，我为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There you can find links to various vendors.
在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." And if you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab。
So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。
Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
同样，所有社交媒体平台上都是 Huberman Lab。
And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.
我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。
All of that is available completely zero cost.
所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to newsletter, and enter your email.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的菜单选项卡，向下滚动到时事通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件即可。
And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Rhonda Patrick.
再次感谢您参加今天与朗达帕特里克博士的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。