Science of Attraction, Compatibility & Romance | Dr. Paul Eastwick
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
When you look at who gets the right swipes and who receives messages on the apps, it's the most popular people.
当您查看谁获得正确的滑动以及谁在应用程序上接收消息时，您会发现它是最受欢迎的人。
Folks have claimed that it's one of the most unequal markets in the world, but regular acquaintanceship is not nearly so dramatic.
人们声称这是世界上最不平等的市场之一，但普通的熟人关系并没有那么引人注目。
I don't think the influence of attractiveness ever goes away, right?
我认为吸引力的影响永远不会消失，对吗？
There's always going to be an unlevel playing field to some extent, but the more that people spend time together getting to know each other, it reduces some of those market forces that give the desirable people all the advantages.
在某种程度上，总是存在不公平的竞争环境，但人们花时间在一起了解彼此的时间越多，就会减少一些市场力量，而这些市场力量赋予理想的人所有的优势。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Dr. Paul Eastwick, a professor of psychology at the University of California, Davis.
今天我的嘉宾是加州大学戴维斯分校的心理学教授保罗·伊斯特威克博士。
Today we discuss the science of attraction, mate selection, and relationships.
今天我们讨论吸引力、择偶和人际关系的科学。
And I promise you, what you are going to hear will surprise you.
我向你保证，你将听到的内容会让你感到惊讶。
Paul's research has discovered that much of what you've heard about how people select partners, date, form relationships, even break up or repartner, is simply wrong, at least when you look at the actual data.
保罗的研究发现，你所听到的关于人们如何选择伴侣、约会、建立关系、甚至分手或重新伴侣的大部分说法都是错误的，至少当你查看实际数据时是这样。
For example, his data show that both men and women, when given a choice, select partners that are younger than them.
例如，他的数据显示，男性和女性在有选择的时候都会选择比自己年轻的伴侣。
Yes, you heard that right.
是的，你没听错。
It's not just men.
不仅仅是男人。
Men and women equally select partners that are younger than them, given the choice.
如果有选择的话，男性和女性平等地选择比自己年轻的伴侣。
His data also challenge the idea that financial status is more important to women when looking for male partners.
他的数据还对女性在寻找男性伴侣时财务状况更重要的观点提出了挑战。
Turns out that when men are looking for female partners, on average, financial status is as important as it is when women are looking for men.
事实证明，平均而言，当男性寻找女性伴侣时，经济状况与女性寻找男性时一样重要。
And somewhat less surprising, his work shows that indeed, dating apps select for qualities that are not the ones that research shows builds lasting partnerships.
不那么令人惊讶的是，他的研究表明，事实上，约会应用程序选择的品质并不是研究表明的建立持久伙伴关系的品质。
But he also offers solutions to those that are using dating apps to try and find a partner.
但他也为那些使用约会应用程序寻找伴侣的人提供解决方案。
Today's discussion is not just about finding a partner.
今天的讨论不仅仅是寻找合作伙伴。
It's also about what solidifies and maintains healthy relationships over time.
它还涉及如何随着时间的推移巩固和维持健康的关系。
Again, what the data say about that.
再说一遍，数据是怎么说的。
Things like physical intimacy being among the very strongest predictors of relationship stability, as well as both partners feeling that no matter who else might be attractive to them, that their partner has unique qualities that no one else can match.
身体上的亲密程度是关系稳定性的最强预测因素之一，而且双方都觉得，无论其他人可能对他们有吸引力，他们的伴侣都拥有其他人无法比拟的独特品质。
So whether you are in a relationship or not, looking for a relationship or not, today's discussion gets into social bonding of all sorts.
因此，无论您是否处于恋爱关系中，无论是否正在寻找恋爱关系，今天的讨论都会涉及各种社会联系。
And repeatedly throughout today's episode, both as it relates to single people looking for a partner, people who are already partnered, we talk about the importance of activities that are done with other people.
在今天的节目中，我们反复讨论与其他人一起进行的活动的重要性，无论是与寻找伴侣的单身人士还是已经有伴侣的人有关。
Could be other couples or other single people, et cetera, and that this is critical for those wanting to meet a partner, and it turns out to be critical for maintaining a healthy long-term relationship.
可能是其他夫妇或其他单身人士等等，这对于那些想要结识伴侣的人来说至关重要，而且事实证明这对于维持健康的长期关系也至关重要。
We'll talk about what the data say about that.
我们将讨论数据对此的看法。
Super interesting.
超级有趣。
So today is not just about the real data of how people rate attractiveness, find partners, and the glue that keeps people happily together.
因此，今天不仅仅是关于人们如何评价吸引力、寻找伴侣以及让人们幸福地在一起的粘合剂的真实数据。
It's about the real-life data and the actions that anyone can take that help you build and sustain excellent romantic and other types of relationships.
它涉及现实生活中的数据和任何人都可以采取的行动，帮助您建立和维持良好的浪漫关系和其他类型的关系。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.
为了与这个主题保持一致，今天的节目确实有赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Paul Eastwick.
现在我与保罗·伊斯特威克博士进行讨论。
Dr. Paul Eastwick, welcome.
保罗·伊斯特威克博士，欢迎。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Thank you so much for having me.
非常感谢你邀请我。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Lot of theories out there, a lot of speculation about attraction, dating, romance, and relationships, which are separable things, of course.
那里有很多理论，很多关于吸引力、约会、浪漫和人际关系的猜测，当然，这些都是分开的事情。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We'll talk about all of them.
我们将讨论所有这些。
But one of the semi-dominant themes in the public narrative, and indeed on many podcasts, is kind of anchoring to evolutionary theory, which, to put it really coarsely, is sort of a market-based theory.
但公共叙事以及许多播客中的半主导主题之一是对进化论的锚定，粗略地说，这是一种基于市场的理论。
People even say, "I married up," or-
人们甚至说，“我结婚了”，或者——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and people put quantitative measures on people.
人们对人进行量化衡量。
"They're a six, they're a seven, they're a 10 in this, but a four in that." As a neuroscientist, I hear that and I immediately go to, and again, this is just purely theoretical, "Oh, this sounds very limbic." This is very much-
“他们这个是 6，他们是 7，他们是 10，但他们是 4。”作为一名神经科学家，我听到这个消息后，我立即去想，这只是纯粹的理论，“哦，这听起来非常边缘化。”这一点非常——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of like the hypothalamus.
就像下丘脑一样。
This is very much like the kind of thing that you might expect under conditions of low food availability.
这非常类似于您在食物供应不足的情况下可能会发生的情况。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Low mate availability.
配偶可用性低。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Lot of weapons and very few laws to regulate violence or something, meaning men will harm each other in order to get access to mates.
有大量的武器和很少的法律来规范暴力或其他什么，这意味着男人会为了获得配偶而互相伤害。
Women will be deceptive.
女人是会骗人的。
This is the whole idea.
这就是整个想法。
And you step back and you go, "Well, that's not the world we live in now." We have a forebrain.
然后你退后一步，说：“好吧，那不是我们现在生活的世界。”我们有一个前脑。
We can make choices.
我们可以做出选择。
We can be strategic in the direction of benevolence.
我们可以策略性地向仁的方向发展。
We can think about kindness.
我们可以思考善良。
And so to me, it seems we need a revision, or at least a better understanding of what's actually true in 2026 and forward.
所以对我来说，我们似乎需要进行修订，或者至少更好地理解 2026 年及以后的实际情况。
So if you would, what are your thoughts about what is not true, based on the data, and perhaps what is true about this "evolutionary model" of dating, relationships, and so on?
那么，如果你愿意的话，根据数据，你对不真实的事情有什么看法，也许这种约会、关系等“进化模型”的真实情况是什么？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
The marketplace ideas, I think they definitely have their place, and it derives from a sensible evolutionary perspective, like what you're describing.
市场理念，我认为它们肯定有自己的位置，它源自合理的进化角度，就像你所描述的那样。
I think it describes well what happens in initial attraction settings when people are really meeting for the first time.
我认为它很好地描述了当人们真正第一次见面时在最初的吸引力设置中发生的情况。
There's this class demo that I do in my undergraduate classes.
这是我在本科课程中做的课堂演示。
A lot of people use this demo.
很多人都使用这个演示。
And what you do is you have a bunch of your students put a number on their foreheads, and they sort of hold it up so that they can't see it, but other people can.
你所做的就是让一群学生在他们的额头上放一个数字，然后他们把它举起来，这样他们就看不到它，但其他人可以。
And you tell the students, "Your goal is to pair up with the highest value person that you can.
你告诉学生，“你的目标是尽可能与最有价值的人配对。
And you don't know what your number is, but I'm going to count to five, and then I want you all to stroll around the room and try to make mating offers to folks." And what you see is that the people who have been randomly assigned a low number start to panic, because what happens is that nobody will talk to them.
你们不知道自己的号码是多少，但我要数到五，然后我希望你们都在房间里闲逛，尝试向人们提出求偶提议。”你看到的是那些被随机分配到低数字的人开始恐慌，因为发生的情况是没有人会和他们说话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And this is random.
这是随机的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Totally random.
完全随机。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Otherwise, it'd be very unethical to do.
否则，这样做是非常不道德的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Right, exactly.
对，完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And also, who would decide?
而且，谁来决定？
But okay.
但好吧。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
But people don't like it.
但人们不喜欢它。
If you get a low number, it's not an enjoyable experience.
如果你得到的数字很低，这不是一次愉快的经历。
And I think there is a parallel to what people are experiencing as they're growing up, or maybe even if they're a little older and they're going to a party and they haven't met anybody there.
我认为这与人们在成长过程中所经历的情况有相似之处，或者即使他们年纪大一点，他们要去参加一个聚会，但他们在那里没有遇到任何人。
So this is an analogy for how people internalize and act upon something that we call mate value.
所以这是一个类比，说明人们如何内化并根据我们所说的伴侣价值采取行动。
And it's like what you describe.
而且就像你所描述的那样。
It's supposedly linked to traits that reflect your core desirability, like maybe your physical attractiveness, but it could be other related traits, too.
据推测，它与反映您的核心需求的特征有关，例如您的身体吸引力，但也可能与其他相关特征有关。
It could be things like the size of your bank account or your status.
可能是您的银行账户规模或您的身份等信息。
What we tend to see is that when people are meeting for the first time, this is a reasonable facsimile of how people behave.
我们倾向于看到的是，当人们第一次见面时，这是人们行为方式的合理模仿。
But interesting things tend to happen when people get to know each other over a little bit more time.
但当人们相互了解一段时间后，有趣的事情往往会发生。
What then tends to happen is that that agreement that is required for that study to work, that study only works because you can read the numbers on people's foreheads.
然后往往会发生的是，该研究发挥作用所需的协议，该研究之所以有效，是因为你可以读出人们额头上的数字。
But if I were to blur that number, we wouldn't see as much pairing up.
但如果我模糊这个数字，我们就不会看到那么多配对。
It wouldn't be as sad and as difficult for the people with low numbers.
对于人数较少的人来说，这不会那么悲伤和困难。
And in real life, that's kind of what tends to happen.
在现实生活中，这种情况很容易发生。
We stop agreeing about who the eights are and who the fives are.
我们不再就谁是八人、谁是五人达成一致。
And people might, on average, say that you're a six, but if I've gotten to know you over time, it means there's a chance I think you're a nine.
一般来说，人们可能会说你是六分，但如果我随着时间的推移了解你，这意味着我有可能认为你是九分。
There's also a chance I think you're a three.
我也有可能认为你是三号。
And so that increase in idiosyncrasy and variability, I think is a really fortunate thing, and it's the thing that's going to allow a lot of partners to find each other, even if they're not consensually the most desirable people.
因此，我认为特质和可变性的增加是一件非常幸运的事情，这将使很多合作伙伴找到彼此，即使他们不是双方都同意的最理想的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Consensually meaning in the eyes of others.
别人眼中的共识意义。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Right.
对。
So even if on average people think you're kind of middling, with enough time, people are more likely to find, "Okay, y'all think I'm a five, but she thinks I'm a 10." And then what you're kind of crossing your fingers for are these moments where, "And I think she's a 10, too." And it's this level of sort of disagreement or the emergence of what we might call compatibility that I think it's been missing from the evolutionary narratives.
因此，即使人们平均认为你中等，但只要有足够的时间，人们更有可能发现，“好吧，你们都认为我是 5 分，但她认为我是 10 分。”然后你就会祈祷这些时刻，“我认为她也是 10 分。”我认为进化论中缺少的正是这种程度的分歧或我们所谓的兼容性的出现。
But I think it plays a core part in explaining how couples get together as well.
但我认为它在解释夫妻如何聚在一起方面也发挥着核心作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
So many things come to mind.
我想到了很多事情。
The first thing that comes to mind is the question, who and what are others looking at?
我首先想到的问题是，其他人在看谁、看什么？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It seems like one of the more, I want to use the word immature, but let's say less evolved, not in the evolutionary biology context-
这似乎是其中之一，我想用不成熟这个词，但我们可以说进化程度较低，而不是在进化生物学的背景下——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but kind of like life maturation sense, like less evolved aspects of self is when we are not thinking about what we actually like and don't like, but we're paying a lot of attention to what other people like and dislike-
但有点像生命的成熟感，就像自我进化程度较低的方面，当我们不去思考我们真正喜欢和不喜欢什么，而是非常关注其他人喜欢和不喜欢什么时——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as a barometer of what we should do or not do.
作为我们应该做什么或不做什么的晴雨表。
Now, of course, that can be very informative in healthy ways, but when it really comes down to it, it's a potentially very toxic aspect of human nature, right?
当然，这可以以健康的方式提供非常丰富的信息，但当它真正归结为这一点时，它是人性的一个潜在的非常有毒的方面，对吗？
So what I hear you saying is that at some point, there's this kind of dating, romance, and relational maturity that people come to, where they're really able to sense what they actually like, and they're able to put the blinders up to how other people are necessarily behaving.
所以我听到你说的是，在某些时候，人们会经历这种约会、浪漫和关系成熟，他们真正能够感觉到自己真正喜欢什么，并且能够对其他人的行为方式视而不见。
Like, does everyone like this person?
比如说，大家都喜欢这个人吗？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do they not like this person?
他们不喜欢这个人吗？
And the words that come to mind, two words, are junior high.
我想到的两个词，就是初中。
Like the junior high school dance-
就像初中的舞蹈一样——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Uh-huh
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for a number of reasons-
由于多种原因——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is kind of the first time most kids are starting to hit puberty or somewhere in puberty at that phase, and so there's a lot of recognition of others and kind of like who is cool, who's not cool, who's getting attention, who's not getting attention, seems to surface first in junior high.
这是大多数孩子第一次进入青春期或处于青春期的某个阶段，因此对他人有很多认可，比如谁很酷，谁不酷，谁受到关注，谁没有受到关注，似乎在初中首先浮现出来。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And admittedly, we're all pretty immature in junior high.
诚然，我们在初中时都还很不成熟。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
That's my memory of junior high .
这就是我初中的记忆。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
So has this been looked at in a structured way?
那么这是否已经以结构化的方式被看待了呢？
For instance, are there adults who are good at ignoring what the consensus is?
例如，是否有成年人擅长忽视共识？
And are they able to find mates and set up relationships more readily than people who are paying a lot of attention to what other people like and don't like?
他们是否能够比那些非常关注别人喜欢和不喜欢什么的人更容易找到伴侣并建立关系？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yes.
是的。
I am sure that there's considerable individual variability in how people react to what's going on around them.
我确信人们对周围发生的事情的反应存在很大的个体差异。
Sometimes you see this phenomenon called mate choice copying, but what that essentially means is that you kind of look to see who's attracted to somebody in my...
有时你会看到这种称为择偶复制的现象，但这本质上意味着你会看看谁被我的某人所吸引......
Is everybody attracted to this person?
大家都被这个人吸引了吗？
Well, there must be some signal there.
嗯，那里一定有信号。
I'll sort of follow that.
我会遵循这一点。
I totally agree.
我完全同意。
It's a very junior high way of thinking about this whole process.
这是一种非常初级的思考整个过程的方式。
But I think a lot of what is happening is that if people are spending time together, and I often go back to thinking about what is it like when we're hanging out in mixed-gender groups if you're heterosexual.
但我认为正在发生的很多事情是，如果人们花时间在一起，我经常回想一下，如果你是异性恋，当我们在混合性别群体中闲逛时，会是什么样子。
So we're spending time together, and maybe for whatever reason, I happen to spend more time with this person.
所以我们花时间在一起，也许出于某种原因，我碰巧花更多的时间和这个人在一起。
We find something interesting to chat about.
我们发现一些有趣的事情可以聊天。
I see her reacting in situations that other people don't get to see.
我看到她在其他人看不到的情况下做出反应。
And so the particular time that I spend with her ends up being the material that I use that causes my opinion to diverge from everybody else's.
因此，我与她一起度过的特定时间最终成为我使用的材料，导致我的观点与其他人的观点不同。
So everybody else might be like, "She's not all that great." And I think, "But you weren't there when we were hanging out-"
所以其他人可能会说，“她没那么伟大。”我想，“但是我们出去玩的时候你不在场——”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Talking about some family challenges that I had.
谈论我遇到的一些家庭挑战。
I'm trying to put myself back in what were the things we would've been frustrated about in high school.
我正在努力让自己回到高中时那些我们会感到沮丧的事情上。
But in talking about problems at school or problems with other friends, she was supportive and listened to me, and then I was supportive and I listened to her.
但在谈论学校的问题或与其他朋友的问题时，她支持并倾听我的意见，然后我也支持并倾听她的意见。
And that reciprocity through a unique experience with another person, a lot of times this is where initial attraction comes from.
通过与另一个人的独特体验而产生的互惠，很多时候这就是最初的吸引力的来源。
It sounds a little squishy.
听起来有点软软的。
It doesn't sound like the sexy form of attraction that we often think about, but what we see in our work is a lot of times this is how it happens.
这听起来并不像我们经常想到的性感的吸引力形式，但我们在工作中看到的很多时候就是这样发生的。
It takes a little while, but attraction can form when two people spend that time together sort of pulling unique things out of each other.
这需要一段时间，但当两个人在一起度过这段时间，从彼此身上汲取独特的东西时，就会形成吸引力。
I'd like to take a quick break to acknowledge one of our sponsors, David.
我想稍微休息一下，向我们的赞助商之一大卫表示感谢。
David makes protein bars unlike any other.
大卫制作的蛋白质棒与众不同。
Their newest bar, the Bronze Bar, has 20 grams of protein, only 150 calories, and zero grams of sugar.
他们最新的 Bronze Bar 含有 20 克蛋白质，仅 150 卡路里，零克糖。
I have to say, these are the best tasting protein bars I've ever had, and I've tried a lot of protein bars over the years.
我不得不说，这些是我吃过的味道最好的蛋白质棒，多年来我尝试过很多蛋白质棒。
These new David bars have a marshmallow base, and they're covered in chocolate coating, and they're absolutely incredible.
这些新的大卫巧克力棒有一个棉花糖底座，上面覆盖着巧克力涂层，它们绝对令人难以置信。
I, of course, eat regular whole foods.
当然，我经常吃天然食品。
I eat meat, chicken, fish, eggs, fruits, vegetables, et cetera.
我吃肉、鸡肉、鱼、鸡蛋、水果、蔬菜等等。
But I also make it a point to eat one or two David bars per day as a snack, which makes it easy to hit my protein goal of one gram of protein per pound of body weight.
但我也强调每天吃一两块大卫棒作为零食，这样很容易达到我每磅体重一克蛋白质的蛋白质目标。
And that allows me to take in the protein I need without consuming excess calories.
这使我能够摄入所需的蛋白质，而不会消耗过多的热量。
I love all the David Bronze Bar flavors, including Cookie Dough, Caramel Chocolate, Double Chocolate, Peanut Butter Chocolate.
我喜欢大卫青铜棒的所有口味，包括饼干面团、焦糖巧克力、双重巧克力、花生酱巧克力。
They all actually taste like candy bars.
它们实际上尝起来都像棒棒糖。
Again, they're amazing.
再说一次，他们太棒了。
But again, they have no sugar, and they have 20 grams of protein with just 150 calories.
但同样，它们不含糖，并且含有 20 克蛋白质，只有 150 卡路里热量。
If you'd like to try David, you can go to davidprotein.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 David，可以访问 david Protein.com/huberman。
Right now, David is offering a deal where if you buy four cartons, you get the fifth carton for free.
现在，大卫正在提供一项优惠，如果您购买四箱，您可以免费获得第五箱。
You can also find David on Amazon or in stores such as Target, Walmart, and Kroger.
您还可以在亚马逊或 Target、沃尔玛和克罗格等商店找到 David。
Again, to get the fifth carton for free, go to davidprotein.com/huberman.
同样，要免费获得第五箱，请访问 david Protein.com/huberman。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Lingo.
今天的节目也是Lingo给我们带来的。
Lingo is an everyday wearable that tracks your glucose 24/7.
Lingo 是一款日常可穿戴设备，可 24/7 跟踪您的血糖。
Glucose drives a lot of key processes that support energy, body composition, and long-term health.
葡萄糖驱动许多支持能量、身体成分和长期健康的关键过程。
When glucose is constantly spiking and crashing, that's where we can start to see metabolic dysfunction, and over time, that can even progress to pre-diabetes.
当血糖不断飙升和崩溃时，我们就会开始看到代谢功能障碍，随着时间的推移，甚至可能发展为糖尿病前期。
Right now, about 115 million adults in the US have pre-diabetes.
目前，美国约有 1.15 亿成年人患有糖尿病前期。
Most don't know it, and a higher percentage of men have it than women do.
大多数人不知道这一点，而且男性患有此病的比例高于女性。
Often, there aren't clear symptoms of pre-diabetes early on, so people don't tend to look into it.
通常，糖尿病前期并没有明显的症状，因此人们往往不会去关注它。
But the fact is that metabolic health is shaping how your body functions every day, whether you feel it or not.
但事实是，无论您是否感觉到，代谢健康正在塑造您身体的日常运作方式。
Tracking your glucose with Lingo can help you see how food, activity, and stress impact your glucose throughout the day.
使用 Lingo 跟踪您的血糖可以帮助您了解食物、活动和压力如何影响您全天的血糖。
I personally have used Lingo, and it's been an invaluable tool for improving my metabolic health.
我个人使用过 Lingo，它是改善我的代谢健康的宝贵工具。
If you would like to try Lingo, Huberman Lab listeners in the US and UK can save 10% on a four-week plan.
如果您想尝试 Lingo，美国和英国的 Huberman Lab 听众可以在为期 4 周的计划中节省 10%。
Just visit hellolingo.com/huberman for more information.
请访问 hellolingo.com/huberman 了解更多信息。
Terms and conditions apply.
条款和条件适用。
Again, that's hellolingo.com/huberman.
再说一次，这是hellolingo.com/huberman。
It's interesting.
这很有趣。
I'm thinking about movies.
我正在考虑电影。
Yeah.
是的。
And admittedly, I haven't seen that many romantic comedies.
诚然，我还没有看过那么多浪漫喜剧。
Zoomed over.
放大了。
But there's some pretty awesome-- I've seen a few of them, but there's some awesome movies about this issue.
但有一些非常棒——我看过其中一些，但也有一些关于这个问题的很棒的电影。
Yeah.
是的。
And I'll offer some examples that will date myself.
我将提供一些适合我自己的例子。
I'm ready.
我准备好了。
But that seem to fall into at least three bins.
但这似乎至少分为三个类别。
One is, "You're awesome.
一是：“你真棒。
I'm awesome.
我很棒。
Let's get together." All right?
我们一起吧。”好的？
Nowadays, I think regardless of music taste, I think the kind of royally celebrated couple is not a royal couple- Yeah.
如今，我认为无论音乐品味如何，我认为那种皇室著名的夫妇不是皇室夫妇 - 是的。
...
...
incidentally.
顺便说一句。
I would say it's like the Taylor Swift, Kelce couple.
我想说这就像泰勒·斯威夫特和凯尔斯夫妇。
Yeah.
是的。
People were like, "They're both winners." Yeah.
人们就像是，“他们都是赢家。”是的。
"They're both super attractive." Yeah.
“他们都超级有吸引力。”是的。
"They're both super successful." And whether you like the Chiefs or you don't, whether or not you like her music or you don't, you're like- Yeah.
“他们都非常成功。”无论你喜欢或不喜欢酋长队，无论你是否喜欢她的音乐，你都会——是的。
"They're like two- You're happy for them.
“他们就像两个人——你为他们感到高兴。
...
...
badass winners pairing up." Exactly.
坏蛋获胜者配对。”确切地。
And it's very hard to say anything except like, "Wow, they totally quote unquote 'belong together.'" Yeah.
除了“哇，他们完全引用了‘属于在一起’之外，很难说任何话。”是的。
Right?
正确的？
Yeah.
是的。
So there's that pairing, and you can find that in movies.
所以这就是这种配对，你可以在电影中找到这种配对。
And all the '80s John Hughes movies centered around this.
所有 80 年代约翰·休斯的电影都围绕这个主题。
Yeah.
是的。
And then broke that model.
然后打破了这个模型。
Right.
正确的。
We'll go back to that.
我们会回到那个。
The other one would be, yeah, the breaking of that model.
是的，另一个问题就是打破这个模型。
This is very '80s, but the kind of like the athlete pairs up with the nerd.
这很80年代的风格，但有点像运动员与书呆子的搭配。
Yeah.
是的。
Right?
正确的？
Okay, nowadays we have athlete nerds- Yeah ...
好吧，现在我们有运动员书呆子 - 是的......
and so it doesn't work quite as well.
所以它的效果不太好。
And then the third model is the, like, "Well, you're screwed up and I'm screwed up, but we're really good people." Yeah.
第三种模式是，“好吧，你搞砸了，我也搞砸了，但我们都是好人。”是的。
Like you get True Romance, the movie True Romance- Yep.
就像你看到《真实的浪漫》一样，电影《真实的浪漫》——是的。
...
...
which is an amazing movie, right?
这是一部很棒的电影，对吧？
She was a not by her own choice, apparently.
显然，她不是她自己的选择。
She's like, "I've been a prostitute, call girl for three days." And he's like, "Well, someone paid for you to be on this date with me." They fall in love.
她就像是，“我已经当了三天应召女郎。”他说：“嗯，有人付钱让你和我约会。”他们相爱了。
They leave their professions, right?
他们离开了自己的职业，对吗？
Yeah.
是的。
And they go on this sort of semi-crime spree that really demonstrates their immense love and devotion to one another.
他们进行这种半犯罪的狂欢，真正展示了他们对彼此的巨大爱和奉献。
Yeah.
是的。
And the whole notion is like, "You're so cool." They both think the other person is super cool.
整个想法就像是，“你太酷了。”他们都认为对方非常酷。
Yeah.
是的。
Don't care about their past, and kind of enjoy the fact that- Right ...
不要关心他们的过去，并享受这样一个事实——对……
they're both from hardscrabble backgrounds.
他们都出身贫寒。
Right.
正确的。
So then there's that.
那么就是这样。
And what's so different about that kind of model compared to today where I hear, so I don't have a lot to offer about personal experience on apps many years ago- Yeah ...
与我今天所听到的相比，这种模型有什么不同，所以我没有太多关于多年前应用程序的个人体验 - 是的......
but it's been a while.
但已经有一段时间了。
Is this notion that you hear this, everyone's competing for the same small number of people.
你听到的是这个概念吗，每个人都在争夺同样少数的人。
Right.
正确的。
So it seems like even those three cliché models that are presented in a number of movies, they exist.
因此，即使是在许多电影中出现的这三种陈词滥调的模型，它们似乎也是存在的。
It's like since when is everyone thinking that they're supposed to pair up with the same small number of people?
就像从什么时候开始每个人都认为他们应该与同样少数的人配对？
This is ridiculous.
这太荒谬了。
Yeah.
是的。
That's like saying everyone's supposed to like the same top three songs- Yeah ...
这就像说每个人都应该喜欢同样的前三首歌曲 - 是的......
even though you might not even like that genre of music.
即使您可能不喜欢那种音乐类型。
Yeah.
是的。
That's insanity.
这太疯狂了。
Yeah.
是的。
The apps
应用程序
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Absolutely pull for this.
绝对是为了这个。
So when you look at who gets the right swipes and who receives messages on the apps, it's the most popular people.
因此，当您查看谁获得了正确的滑动以及谁在应用程序上接收消息时，您会发现它是最受欢迎的人。
Folks have claimed that it's one of the most unequal markets in the world.
人们声称它是世界上最不平等的市场之一。
It's basically a kleptocracy.
这基本上是一个盗贼统治。
The extent to which-
在何种程度上——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Kleptocracy?
盗贼统治？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah, kleptocracy.
是的，盗贼统治。
Right.
正确的。
The extent to which it's skewed, right?
歪斜到什么程度了，对吧？
That there's the rich, quote unquote, who get all the right swipes at the top.
那是有钱人，引用不引用，他们在顶部得到了所有正确的滑动。
But regular acquaintanceship is not nearly so dramatic.
但普通的相识并没有那么戏剧化。
So, one example that I like to use is that if our job was just to evaluate whether somebody standing in front of us was hot or not, and it was somebody that we interacted with briefly, and we're making just simple binary judgments.
所以，我喜欢用的一个例子是，如果我们的工作只是评估站在我们面前的某人是否性感，并且我们与这个人进行了短暂的互动，那么我们只是做出简单的二元判断。
You and I are going to agree about two-thirds of the time.
你和我在大约三分之二的情况下都会达成一致。
So that's better than 50/50, but it's far from 100%.
所以这比 50/50 好，但还远未达到 100%。
I think, actually, that would surprise a lot of people.
我认为，事实上，这会让很多人感到惊讶。
There's a reasonable amount of disagreement there.
存在一定程度的分歧。
That's already starting to set the stage for us not necessarily pursuing the most appealing person, because if there's disagreement, that means there's a chance that, well, you're going to go for this person, I'm going to go for that person, and it levels out the playing field somewhat.
这已经开始为我们奠定了基础，不一定要追求最具吸引力的人，因为如果存在分歧，那就意味着有可能，嗯，你会选择这个人，我会选择那个人，这在一定程度上平衡了竞争环境。
I don't think the influence of attractiveness ever goes away, right?
我认为吸引力的影响永远不会消失，对吗？
There's always going to be an unlevel playing field to some extent.
在某种程度上，总会存在不公平的竞争环境。
But the more that people spend time together getting to know each other, it reduces some of those market forces that give the desirable people all the advantages.
但人们花时间在一起了解彼此的时间越多，就会减少一些市场力量，而这些市场力量赋予理想的人所有的优势。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, the reason junior high school seems so dreadful-
是啊，为什么初中看起来那么可怕——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in my memory.
在我的记忆中。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I had a good time in junior high school, but it was largely, at least for me, the fact that people in my peer group, because it was a pretty broad age range, were still among the guys, were hitting puberty at different rates.
我在初中度过了一段美好的时光，但至少对我来说，很大程度上是因为我的同龄人中的人，因为年龄范围相当广泛，仍然属于男生，以不同的速度进入青春期。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, a game of soccer that at one time was pretty even with respect to who could play well, suddenly you're playing against what felt like a grown man.
所以，一场足球比赛一度在谁踢得好方面相当公平，但突然间你正在和一个感觉像成年人的人比赛。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There was actually a kid-
原来还有一个孩子——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in our town who, I don't want to give up his name, who I think he went on to, I don't ever think he became a professional soccer player, but he was just fully developed-
在我们镇上，我不想放弃他的名字，我认为他继续了，我不认为他成为了一名职业足球运动员，但他刚刚完全发展-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
by the eighth grade.
到了八年级。
He was like facial hair-
他就像胡子一样——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and he was fast, and he had legs like tree trunks, and he could move.
他速度很快，腿像树干一样，可以移动。
And it was just completely dangerous to have him out on the field-
让他上场是非常危险的——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with the rest of us.
和我们其他人一起。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
And he was respected, adored, admired.
他受到尊重、崇拜、钦佩。
And it was very context-dependent.
这非常依赖于上下文。
This was the other thing I was going to say.
这是我要说的另一件事。
I think you and I are both scientists, so coming up, you spent a lot of time in labs.
我认为你和我都是科学家，所以接下来，你们在实验室度过了很多时间。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'll never forget, there was a romance in a neighboring lab, that none of us understood.
我永远不会忘记，在邻近的实验室里发生过一段我们谁也不明白的浪漫故事。
Like none of us understood.
就像我们没人理解一样。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
That's funny.
这很有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I remember asking my friend, who was in this pairing, and he said the attraction for him, although she was also attractive, but the hook was her prowess at aliquoting.
我记得我问过我的朋友，这对组合是谁，他说对他来说很有吸引力，虽然她也很有吸引力，但吸引人的是她在等分方面的能力。
So there's this thing you do with antibodies in labs where they come in, and you have to put them into-
所以你在实验室里用抗体做这件事，你必须把它们放进去——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Oh, yes
哦，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the little things so that it freeze out a little bit.
一些小事情，让它冻结一点。
And apparently-
显然——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
It's really hard.
真的很难。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
It's really hard.
真的很难。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's hard, but you get good at it.
这很难，但你会擅长的。
But apparently, he walked in one day, and she had a bunch of these little tubes stuffed between her fingers, and she was just aliquoting really quickly while talking.
但显然，有一天他走进来，她的手指间塞满了一堆这样的小管子，她一边说话，一边快速地等分。
And from that moment, he was just smitten.
从那一刻起，他就被迷住了。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
That's beautiful.
那很漂亮。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'll say they both have-
我会说他们都有——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
I've never heard an example that's good.
我从来没有听说过一个好的例子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I was like, her aliquoting process, or prowess.
我当时想，她的等分过程，或者说她的能力。
And I thought to myself, like, "Is this tapping into something?" They actually have children.
我心想，“这是在挖掘什么东西吗？”他们实际上有孩子。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He's a professor.
他是一位教授。
They have children together.
他们有孩子。
They seem very happy.
他们看起来很高兴。
I think anyone would say they're both attractive people, but their pairing seemed not predictable-
我想任何人都会说他们都是有魅力的人，但他们的配对似乎不可预测——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
by any other external metrics.
通过任何其他外部指标。
And the fact that something so specific-
事实上，如此具体的事情-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
was the hook.
是钩子。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that opened up into what turned out to be a longstanding marriage with kids-
这开启了一段长期的、有孩子的婚姻——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is kind of wild.
有点狂野。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
It is.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But is this uncommon?
但这不常见吗？
Because what you described before is kind of like this.
因为你之前描述的有点像这样。
There's something unique that makes it feel like there's a special attraction that indicates something that opens up to a special discussion, and then there's this kind of intimacy, right?
有一些独特的东西让人感觉有一种特殊的吸引力，表明某些东西可以进行特殊的讨论，然后就有这种亲密感，对吗？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That they share-
他们分享的——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
around aliquoting.
围绕等分。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Around aliquoting.
围绕等分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or that was spawned by aliquoting.
或者说这是通过等分而产生的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't recommend folks run out and learn how to aliquot in order to...
我不建议人们跑出去学习如何等分以便......
This is not a strategy.
这不是一个策略。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
But that's the thing.
但就是这样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thematically, it might be, but.
从主题上来说，可能是这样，但是。
So what are your thoughts on something like that?
那么你对这样的事情有什么想法呢？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Okay.
好的。
This is an incredible example.
这是一个令人难以置信的例子。
And I think if we're talking about couples, I think most people would find this idea intuitive.
我想如果我们谈论的是夫妻，我想大多数人都会觉得这个想法很直观。
That if I ask somebody, "What is it that you love about your wife?" Or, "What is it that you love about your husband?" You know you're going to get a bunch of, if you get them talking for long enough, you'll get some idiosyncratic details.
如果我问某人：“你爱你妻子的什么？”或者，“你爱你丈夫的什么？”你知道你会得到很多，如果你让他们谈论足够长的时间，你会得到一些特殊的细节。
You'll get some stories.
你会得到一些故事。
Maybe if they're really forthcoming, they'll give you the in-jokes, and they'll explain the moments that made them feel something special for this person.
也许如果他们真的很愿意，他们会给你讲笑话，他们会解释让他们对这个人有特殊感觉的时刻。
I think what I'm suggesting is that those moments, the creation of a narrative with another person, it goes back earlier than we think, and that a lot of times what we're doing when we're trying to figure out if we're into somebody, yes, we look at how they look visually, and we take in all that information and it matters a lot, but we're also talking with them, forming little stories.
我想我想说的是，那些与另一个人一起创造叙事的时刻，它比我们想象的要早得多，很多时候，当我们试图弄清楚我们是否喜欢某个人时，我们所做的事情是，我们会观察他们的视觉外观，我们吸收所有这些信息，这很重要，但我们也在与他们交谈，形成小故事。
If you have a little bit of good banter, that means when I see you at the party next week, I'm going to want to sit next to you and see if we can recreate that moment, and that's often where attraction is coming from.
如果你有一点好的玩笑，这意味着当我下周在聚会上见到你时，我会想坐在你旁边，看看我们是否可以重现那个时刻，而这通常就是吸引力的来源。
I think that's why the apps are so hard, because it turns it into an interview where you're trying to impress other people with your traits.
我认为这就是为什么这些应用程序如此困难，因为它把它变成了一次面试，你试图用你的特质给其他人留下深刻的印象。
And again, traits are important, but it's not the life of the thing.
再说一次，特征很重要，但这不是事物的生命。
The life of the thing is the little stories and moments that two people are sharing, and that, I think, is something that people can be doing more with.
事物的生命在于两个人分享的小故事和时刻，我认为人们可以做更多的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to divide this process that we call dating, romance, relationships-
我想把这个我们称之为约会、浪漫、关系的过程分开——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
et cetera, into some pieces that may or may not be the right way to segment it.
等等，分成一些片段，这些片段可能是也可能不是正确的分割方式。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So please change any of what I'm about to toss out.
所以请改变我即将扔掉的任何东西。
We're talking about impressions-
我们谈论的是印象——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that either seed or don't seed desire for more time.
要么播种，要么不播种渴望更多时间。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So interest.
所以有兴趣。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then I'll just broadly separate with compatibility over time.
然后随着时间的推移，我将大致区分兼容性。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So let's spend some time on impressions that lead to desire.
因此，让我们花一些时间来讨论导致欲望的印象。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which ones are meaningful, which ones aren't, and which ones can be a bit misleading.
哪些是有意义的，哪些是没有意义的，哪些可能会产生误导。
I think most people are probably more intuitive about those, if they're really honest.
我认为大多数人可能对这些更直观，如果他们真的很诚实的话。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like, what they find, who they find attractive, who they'd be willing to admit they find attractive if you remove all the other social inputs.
比如，他们发现了什么，他们觉得谁有吸引力，如果你删除所有其他社交输入，他们愿意承认他们觉得谁有吸引力。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so on.
等等。
But the compatibility over time piece is the one that is really hard.
但随着时间的推移，兼容性是非常困难的。
If you just look at the statistics on marriage-
如果你只看婚姻统计数据——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
let alone the statistics on other relationships.
更不用说其他关系的统计数据了。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not a bleak picture, but the numbers don't play out into if people get together and make the commitment, most of the time it works out.
这并不是一幅黯淡的景象，但如果人们齐心协力并做出承诺，那么数字并不会发挥作用，大多数情况下都会成功。
It unfortunately doesn't seem to be that way, or maybe who knows, fortunately.
不幸的是，情况似乎并非如此，或者幸运的是，谁知道呢。
But so impressions leading to desire.
但这样的印象会导致欲望。
Given that many of the people listening to this will either be thinking about their own history with their current partner, or are seeking a partner, or maybe not, what do the data say about what people are picking up on as really valid cues that drive real desire, as opposed to the-
考虑到许多听这个的人要么会思考自己与当前伴侣的历史，要么正在寻找伴侣，或者可能不是，这些数据说明了人们所接受的真正有效的线索，这些线索可以驱动真正的欲望，而不是——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the BS about, well, everyone else thought they were great, or the great on paper kind of thing.
那些关于，嗯，其他人都认为他们很伟大，或者纸面上很伟大的事情的废话。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
The early phases especially are just naturally filled with a lot of uncertainty, and I think this is a bummer for a lot of people because it can feel like you're really into somebody, or they're really into me, and then it turns on a dime.
尤其是早期阶段，自然地充满了很多不确定性，我认为这对很多人来说都是令人沮丧的，因为你可能会觉得你真的很喜欢某人，或者他们真的很喜欢我，然后事情就突然发生了变化。
So part of that is about searching for signals, trying to resolve the uncertainty, and the problem is that it's not like, oh, if I get sufficient evidence that you're smart, that's going to do it, or if I get sufficient evidence that you're really good at aliquoting, that's going to do it.
所以其中一部分是寻找信号，试图解决不确定性，问题是，哦，如果我有足够的证据表明你很聪明，那就会做到这一点，或者如果我有足够的证据表明你真的很擅长等分，那就会做到。
What people are, I think, trying to do is they're trying to figure out, do I feel enough of something for you that I want to continue this, that I want to keep going?
我认为，人们想要做的是他们想要弄清楚，我是否对你有足够的感觉，以至于我想继续这样做，我想继续下去？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Spark.
火花。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yes.
是的。
But I don't want to act like-- Because sometimes when people think about the spark, what they think is, oh, it's got to be there right away, and I've already got to be feeling 100 for this person.
但我不想表现得像——因为有时当人们想到火花时，他们的想法是，哦，它必须马上就出现，而我已经对这个人有 100 的感觉。
Right?
正确的？
I got to be at the top of the scale.
我必须处于规模的顶端。
That actually isn't what happens on average.
这实际上并不是平均发生的情况。
Typically, if you look at what most relationships look like, and you look back at the beginning, the typical first impression is middling.
通常，如果你看看大多数关系的样子，然后回顾一开始，典型的第一印象是中等的。
That's how we feel at first.
这就是我们一开始的感受。
Middling.
中等。
Just kind of, I don't know, middle of the scale.
我不知道，只是处于中等水平。
Yeah, they seemed all right.
是的，他们看起来一切都好。
It was fine.
很好。
And then we interacted again.
然后我们又互动了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not bad, not over the top.
不错，不过分。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Not bad, not over the top.
不错，不过分。
And as we spend a little more time together, oh, actually I find him pretty funny.
当我们在一起的时间越来越多时，哦，实际上我发现他很有趣。
Or, I think he's really smart.
或者说，我觉得他真的很聪明。
Or, I really like how good a listener he was.
或者，我真的很喜欢他是一个多么好的倾听者。
And I think what people are often trying to do is get enough moments that fit enough of these different trait categories that they think, well, whatever other people say about this person, with me, he seems like a pretty sensitive guy.
我认为人们经常想做的是获得足够多的时刻来适应这些不同的特征类别，他们认为，好吧，无论其他人如何评价这个人，对我来说，他似乎是一个非常敏感的人。
With me, he seems pretty witty.
和我在一起，他看起来很机智。
With me, I actually think he's really hot when he does XYZ.
和我一起，我实际上认为他做 XYZ 时真的很性感。
And so if you accumulate enough of those, then you find yourself, it's like you keep coming back.
因此，如果你积累了足够多的这些，那么你就会发现自己，就像你不断回来一样。
So that's how I think about it, is this slow accumulation of information.
这就是我的想法，就是信息的缓慢积累。
Sometimes people will encounter things like the ick, where there's one moment, and then they tip over the edge the other way into feeling like, "I can't be with this person."
有时人们会遇到像恶心这样的事情，有那么一刻，然后他们就会以另一种方式陷入困境，感觉“我不能和这个人在一起”。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is that typically-
这通常是——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
women who feel that about men?
女人对男人有这种感觉吗？
Do men-
男人们做吗——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
I think-
我认为——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
describe that?
描述一下？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
I think, yeah.
我想，是的。
Men have those experiences, too.
男人也有这些经历。
It is pretty under-researched, and one of the reasons why is because this whole phase I'm talking about is remarkably hard to study.
它的研究还相当不足，原因之一是因为我正在谈论的整个阶段非常难以研究。
Because as researchers, we're very good at how do you feel about somebody if you're looking at a picture or if you've hung out for four minutes.
因为作为研究人员，我们非常擅长了解当你看一张照片或闲逛四分钟时你对某人的感觉如何。
That's what a lot of the initial attraction paradigms look like.
这就是许多最初的吸引力范式的样子。
I like those paradigms.
我喜欢这些范例。
I study those paradigms myself.
我自己研究这些范式。
And then it's very easy to recruit couples, and then see what happens to them, what explains why their relationships stay together and why they fall apart.
然后很容易招募情侣，然后看看他们会发生什么，解释他们的关系为何保持在一起以及为何破裂。
But this period, and it's my favorite thing to think about, and it's also one of the most mysterious, is, yeah, but what happened from minute 10 to day 30, where now you were really determined to be in a relationship with this person.
但这段时间，这是我最喜欢思考的事情，也是最神秘的事情之一，是的，从第 10 分钟到第 30 天发生的事情，现在你真的决心与这个人建立关系。
And that's a typical amount of time.
这是典型的时间。
It usually doesn't happen instantaneously, that people know right away, "Hey, no, this is it.
人们通常不会立即知道，“嘿，不，就是这样。
I want to be with this person." It's that slow accumulation, and when we look at it, it's almost like you've got a window of uncertainty, and it's slowly collapsing to a stable impression that people have of this person as they gather a little bit more information and a little bit more information.
我想和这个人在一起。”就是这种缓慢的积累，当我们看到它时，几乎就像你有一扇不确定的窗口，随着人们收集越来越多的信息，它慢慢地崩溃成人们对这个人的稳定印象。
And what you just hope for is that as two people, you're collapsing to a fairly stable impression that is both very positive of each other.
你所希望的是，作为两个人，你们会陷入一种相当稳定的印象，对彼此都非常积极。
And I think a large part, that's how people get together.
我认为很大程度上，这就是人们聚集在一起的方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And hopefully accurate, too.
希望也是准确的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
So the accuracy part is interesting because I'm a social psychologist, and so social psychologists are big into, well, your perception is your reality.
所以准确性部分很有趣，因为我是一名社会心理学家，所以社会心理学家热衷于，嗯，你的感知就是你的现实。
And boy, do you see a lot of evidence, especially in relationships, that people are biased when it comes to their romantic relationships.
男孩，你是否看到很多证据，尤其是在人际关系中，人们在恋爱关系方面存在偏见。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In what sense?
从什么意义上说？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
It can happen in ways like, you know Everybody kind of agrees that your partner's a jerk, but you genuinely don't think they're a jerk.
它可能以这样的方式发生，你知道，每个人都同意你的伴侣是个混蛋，但你真的不认为他们是个混蛋。
And when they're with you, they don't seem like a jerk.
当他们和你在一起时，他们看起来并不像个混蛋。
So any kind of measure I would take about your perception of your partner versus everybody else's perception, you would seem to be horribly positively biased for your partner.
因此，无论我对你对伴侣的看法与其他人的看法进行比较，你都会对你的伴侣产生严重的积极偏见。
The question is whether you're wrong.
问题是你有没有错。
And I land on the side of, from your perspective, you're not.
从你的角度来看，我站在你不是的一边。
To argue that it would be better to listen to the consensus that your partner is a jerk, it's sort of like you're arguing for a sleeper effect, like there's wisdom in what other people know that you don't see.
争论说最好听听“你的伴侣是个混蛋”这一共识，这有点像你在争论睡眠效应，就像别人知道而你看不到的东西中蕴藏着智慧。
The evidence for that is actually not great.
这方面的证据实际上并不充分。
It could be, and I'm sure it happens sometimes.
有可能，而且我确信有时会发生。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
But what usually happens in relationships is that people's own impressions and perceptions tend to be the major driver.
但在人际关系中通常发生的情况是，人们自己的印象和看法往往是主要驱动力。
Now, that can go in the other way, too, because we might all agree this person would be the most amazing partner to be with, and yet you've now gotten to the point in this relationship where you don't see it anymore, and you can't unsee the negative things you've seen.
现在，这也可以以另一种方式进行，因为我们可能都同意这个人将是最令人惊奇的伴侣，但你现在已经到了这段关系中你再也看不到它的地步，你无法忽视你所看到的负面事物。
And so that relationship can be very hard to salvage.
因此，这种关系很难挽救。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The statement has been made by someone I know and trust about all things in life, not just relationships, but certainly including them, that if people just treated their taste in people, in music, in art, in experiences, the same way they treated their taste in food, everyone would be a lot better off.
我认识并信任生活中所有事情的一个人说过这样的话，不仅仅是人际关系，当然也包括人际关系，如果人们对待自己对人、对音乐、对艺术、对经历的品味，就像对待自己对食物的品味一样，那么每个人都会过得更好。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Meaning if one has the impression that they really like something, they really like this person, then just go for it.
意思是，如果一个人觉得他们真的喜欢某件事，他们真的喜欢这个人，那么就去做吧。
Unless there's some sort of danger they're not aware of.
除非有某种他们没有意识到的危险。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Right.
正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay?
好吧？
And we'll talk about consensus-
我们将讨论共识——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
communicating danger.
传达危险。
Separate issue, but it crosses into this online dating thing based on a lot of conversations I've had with young men and women.
单独的问题，但根据我与年轻男女的大量对话，它涉及在线约会的事情。
But music, you hear it, you either like it or you don't.
但是音乐，你听到它，你要么喜欢它，要么不喜欢它。
We don't tend to have a hard time defending our stance on those things.
我们在这些事情上捍卫我们的立场并不困难。
But when it comes to relationships, it's almost like we're, many people are walking around with a little or a lot of that junior high narrative in their-
但当谈到人际关系时，就像我们一样，许多人在他们的生活中带着或多或少的初中故事——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in their mind.
在他们心中。
Not necessarily be with somebody that they can't stand because everyone else thinks they're great.
不一定要和他们无法忍受的人在一起，因为其他人都认为他们很棒。
I think that's pretty rare.
我认为这非常罕见。
Probably happens, but it's pretty rare.
可能会发生，但非常罕见。
But at these early stages that you study, that they're navigating that process in a way where they're not in tune with their own taste.
但在你研究的这些早期阶段，他们正在以一种不符合自己口味的方式引导这个过程。
They're integrating all this other information in a way-
他们正在以某种方式整合所有其他信息——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that's not helpful.
那没有帮助。
It's not protecting them.
这不是在保护他们。
In fact, it's just clouding the signal.
事实上，这只是使信号变得模糊。
It's noise, right?
这是噪音，对吧？
In the signal-to-noise model, like-
在信噪比模型中，例如：
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's noise.
这是噪音。
It's just pure noise.
这只是纯粹的噪音。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And as a consequence, people are wasting their time and other people's time.
结果，人们浪费了自己的时间和别人的时间。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I don't believe everyone's trying to waste each other's time.
我不相信每个人都在试图浪费彼此的时间。
It just seems that we're conditioned to do this.
看来我们有条件这样做。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I will say, it does take a pretty strong person to say, "Listen, I know that's what you see.
我想说，确实需要一个非常坚强的人才能说：“听着，我知道这就是你所看到的。
I know that's what they say, but like-"
我知道他们就是这么说的，但是就像——”
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
"this person's great.
“这个人很棒。
They're right for me." And when people do that, in general, people tend to back off.
它们适合我。”当人们这样做时，一般来说，人们往往会退缩。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And of course, there's Shakespeare about this, right?
当然，莎士比亚也提到过这个，对吧？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Right.
正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But that tends to be cultural pressure of like, no, you two can't be together.
但这往往是文化压力，比如，不，你们两个不能在一起。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or the parents don't want it, or one set of parents.
或者父母不愿意，或者是一对父母。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some of the greatest romances have been born out of that F-U to the-
一些最伟大的浪漫故事就是从那个 F-U 到 -
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to the elders.
给长辈们。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
To the community.
到社区。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But this is a little different.
但这有点不同。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yes.
是的。
It's a tricky thing to navigate because I think one of the best situations to end up in is where you're in a relationship, and let's say it's a new relationship, and your friends around you basically think, "We're happy for you, and we're going to celebrate this relationship.
这是一件棘手的事情，因为我认为最好的情况之一就是你处于一段关系中，假设这是一段新的关系，你周围的朋友基本上会想，“我们为你感到高兴，我们将庆祝这段关系。
We support you.
我们支持你。
We just wouldn't be terribly interested in this person ourselves." That's the ideal, right?
我们自己对这个人不太感兴趣。”那是理想的，对吧？
Where it's not exceptionally competitive.
竞争不是特别激烈的地方。
You're not worried about your friends trying to poach your partner away.
您不必担心您的朋友试图挖走您的伴侣。
But at the same time, they're supportive of the relationship.
但与此同时，他们支持这种关系。
Because that support from friends and family, it is important.
因为朋友和家人的支持很重要。
It certainly shapes how people feel.
它确实塑造了人们的感受。
There's a way to navigate that that doesn't make it a, like, "I'm glad you like my girlfriend, but, like, don't like her too much, please." You want to kind of try to find that balance there.
有一种方法可以避免这样的情况：“我很高兴你喜欢我的女朋友，但是，请不要太喜欢她。”你想尝试在那里找到平衡。
And that's a tricky thing.
这是一件棘手的事情。
I think this is a lot of what people are trying to navigate in adolescence.
我认为这是人们在青春期试图解决的很多问题。
They're trying to figure out, how can I be part of a friend group and have a romantic relationship and navigate the complexities that come with that?
他们试图弄清楚，我如何才能成为朋友团体的一员并拥有浪漫的关系并应对随之而来的复杂性？
I vividly remember these junior high, early high school experiences of dating somebody, but also your friends are into this person, and actually, it was a relationship where my girlfriend at the time broke up with me, starts dating my best friend.
我清楚地记得这些初中、高中初中与某人约会的经历，而且你的朋友也喜欢这个人，实际上，这是一段关系，当时我的女朋友与我分手，开始与我最好的朋友约会。
We're all friends now.
我们现在都是朋友了。
It's all fine now.
现在一切都好了。
And it's like at this moment that I discover evolutionary psychology, that I discover this narrative, and it just felt like such a double-edged sword, because how wonderful is it to think about how people have been navigating these challenges, ex-girlfriends breaking up with you for your best friend.
就像在这一刻，我发现了进化心理学，我发现了这个叙述，它感觉就像一把双刃剑，因为想想人们如何应对这些挑战，前女友为了你最好的朋友而与你分手，这是多么美妙的事情。
This has been happening for tens of thousands of years.
这种情况已经发生了数万年。
Like, I'm not alone.
就像，我并不孤单。
I'm not the first person to experience this.
我不是第一个经历过这种事的人。
And then to also read at the same time, oh my god, this reflects something true about my deep underlying value.
然后同时阅读，天哪，这反映了我深层的潜在价值的真实情况。
This is kind of scary.
这有点可怕。
So those two things together weirdly were what got me hooked on this.
所以这两件事奇怪地结合在一起让我着迷。
The feeling like evolutionary psychology is fascinating and really bleak at the same time.
进化心理学的感觉令人着迷，同时又非常黯淡。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I agree.
是的，我同意。
I was going to say brutal.
我本来想说残酷的。
I'm sorry you had to go through that.
很抱歉你不得不经历这些。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Although I'm glad you're all friends.
虽然我很高兴你们都是朋友。
I think it happens-
我认为它发生了——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
It's all good.
一切都很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
probably not to everyone, but-
可能不是每个人，但是-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I can remember similar experiences-
我还记得类似的经历——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
where you're just like, "Oh, man, what a gut punch."
你会说，“哦，伙计，真是一记重拳。”
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And part of the maturational process is realizing, okay, they might be better suited, and there'll be someone for me, and-
成熟过程的一部分就是意识到，好吧，他们可能更适合，而且会有人适合我，而且-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Honestly, they were better suited for each other.
老实说，他们更适合彼此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All right.
好吧。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All right.
好吧。
I have a question about the science.
我有一个关于科学的问题。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or how to study these sorts of things.
或者如何研究这类事情。
So if I set aside my science hat and I say-
因此，如果我抛开我的科学帽子，我说——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
"All right.
“好吧。
You can study this stuff, but wait.
你可以研究这些东西，但是等等。
If we're talking about a kind of unique hook," like, let's just assume the people are within the range of attractiveness.
如果我们谈论的是一种独特的吸引力，”比如，我们假设人们在吸引力范围内。
Again, I hate this quantitative thing, but-
再说一次，我讨厌这种定量的东西，但是-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
they think the other person's attractive.
他们认为对方很有吸引力。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're dating because they want to find someone, right?
他们约会是因为他们想找到某人，对吗？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're not resistant to commitment.
他们不抗拒承诺。
They're looking for-
他们正在寻找——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for a partner, and the number of histories that people are bringing to that is infinite or near infinite.
对于合作伙伴来说，人们带来的历史数量是无限的或接近无限的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So let's say the hook is, listen, one person had a hard past based on an abusive household.
所以，假设问题是，听着，一个人有一段基于虐待家庭的艰难过去。
The other person is really gentle.
对方真的很温柔。
They had a great past, and the person feels very safe in that, right?
他们有一段美好的过去，这个人对此感到非常安全，对吗？
We always think about the trauma bond, right?
我们总是会想到创伤纽带，对吗？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is an unfortunate thing that does seem to happen.
这似乎确实发生了一件不幸的事情。
But it could also be both people had difficult pasts, parents with addiction issues or mental health issues, and they can relate.
但也可能是两个人都有过困难的过去，父母都有毒瘾问题或心理健康问题，他们可以理解。
Okay, that's one example.
好的，这就是一个例子。
The other is-
另一个是——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
we both value X.
我们都重视X。
We both value Y.
我们都看重Y。
And so the unique glue-
所以独特的胶水-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is near infinite, right?
接近无穷大，对吗？
So the question I have, and this isn't a challenge, it's just a genuine curiosity, is how do you study this process then?
所以我的问题是，这不是一个挑战，这只是一种真正的好奇心，那么你如何研究这个过程？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because what are the universals of what-- Is it what people define as some kind of lock and key that they didn't know they were-
因为什么是普遍性——人们是否将其定义为某种他们不知道的锁和钥匙——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
looking for that lock and key combination, and then they go, "Oh, this feels unique." And the reason I ask this is because I want to frame the science, but also, I want to know to what extent being aware of what's critical to oneself is important in this process.
寻找那个锁和钥匙的组合，然后他们说，“哦，这感觉很独特。”我之所以问这个问题，是因为我想构建科学框架，而且，我想知道在这个过程中意识到对自己至关重要的事情在多大程度上是重要的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Does that make sense?
这有道理吗？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's a lot of words there, but-
里面有很多话，但是——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
basically, how well one knows themselves can often help lead to better choices-
基本上，一个人对自己的了解程度往往有助于做出更好的选择——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in partner choice.
在合作伙伴的选择上。
And so people go know, like, "Gosh, I really, really would like someone that I could feel understood around this-"
所以人们会知道，就像，“天哪，我真的、真的想要一个能让我感到理解的人——”
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"...
“……
or feel really safe around this, or make them feel really safe around that."
或者对此感到非常安全，或者让他们对此感到非常安全。”
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
With any relationship, it's almost like you have to hold these two seemingly contradictory truths at the same time.
对于任何关系，你几乎都必须同时持有这两个看似矛盾的事实。
One is that no two people in the history of the world have experienced what we're experiencing right now, and yet there are broad, general principles that we can point to that can explain some of the dynamics of every romantic relationship that has ever existed.
一是世界历史上没有两个人经历过我们现在所经历的事情，但我们可以指出一些广泛的、普遍的原则，可以解释曾经存在的每一种浪漫关系的一些动力。
So when it comes to broad principles, I love the attachment framework, and what's fascinating about attachment is that this is just as evolutionary as all the other evolutionary theories you've heard about online.
因此，当谈到广泛的原则时，我喜欢依恋框架，而依恋的迷人之处在于，它与您在网上听到的所有其他进化理论一样具有进化性。
It's just a different evolutionary theory.
这只是一种不同的进化理论。
But this perspective suggests that we are creatures that form bonds with each other.
但这种观点表明，我们是彼此形成联系的生物。
We essentially crave closeness, intimacy, support.
我们本质上渴望亲密、亲密和支持。
We thrive when we get it.
当我们得到它时，我们就会蓬勃发展。
We're more likely to recover.
我们更有可能康复。
We sleep better.
我们睡得更好了。
We get all of these benefits from close, attached relationships.
我们从亲密的依恋关系中获得所有这些好处。
But for some people, or at some points in their lives, we can struggle to have those kinds of relationships, sometimes because we become too anxious about them.
但对于某些人来说，或者在他们生命中的某些时刻，我们可能很难维持这种关系，有时是因为我们对他们变得过于焦虑。
We need them a little too much.
我们太需要他们了。
We become uncomfortable in our own skin.
我们对自己的皮肤感到不舒服。
Or we tip the other way.
或者我们以另一种方式给小费。
We become very avoidant.
我们变得非常回避。
We become overly independent.
我们变得过于独立。
We become convinced that we really don't need anybody else.
我们确信我们真的不需要其他任何人。
These are broad attachment dynamics that people will go through their whole lives having to navigate.
这些是广泛的依恋动力，人们一生都必须驾驭它们。
A lot of people have probably heard about you can have an anxious attachment style or an avoidant attachment style, and all of that is true.
很多人可能听说过你可以有焦虑型依恋风格或回避型依恋风格，所有这些都是真的。
But one thing we know today from studying more couples and getting better at studying couples over longer periods of time is you realize that, boy, people's attachment orientations really can change.
但今天，通过研究更多的夫妻以及在更长的时间内更好地研究夫妻，我们知道一件事是，你意识到，孩子，人们的依恋取向确实可以改变。
So somebody can come into a relationship with an avoidant trauma-filled past, but with enough time with the right kind of person, again, sharing their unique bond, which maybe science will never crack, but they know all about it, that person will start to become less and less avoidant with time.
因此，某人可能会与充满回避创伤的过去建立关系，但只要有足够的时间与正确的人在一起，再次分享他们独特的联系，这种联系可能科学永远不会破裂，但他们都知道这一点，随着时间的推移，那个人会开始变得越来越不回避。
They'll become more secure.
他们会变得更加安全。
They'll get more of those physiological benefits out of the relationship.
他们将从这段关系中获得更多的生理益处。
They'll get more of the support-related benefits out of the relationship, and that can, in effect, turn somebody into a more secure person.
他们将从这段关系中获得更多与支持相关的好处，这实际上可以使某人变得更有安全感。
So these are the attachment lessons that I often point to, and I think they're useful for at least helping me remember that tension between, yeah, anxiety and avoidance.
所以这些是我经常提到的依恋课程，我认为它们至少有助于帮助我记住焦虑和回避之间的紧张关系。
Two very broad processes that are always happening behind the scenes, and yet the way it unfolds for any one particular couple, it's always going to be this weird, unique combination of stories and in-jokes and little moments that scaffold up to hopefully help somebody become more secure eventually.
两个非常广泛的过程总是在幕后发生，但对于任何一对特定的夫妇来说，它的展开方式总是会是这种奇怪的、独特的故事、笑话和小时刻的结合，希望能够帮助某人最终变得更加安全。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。
AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens.
AG1 是一种维生素矿物质益生菌饮料，还包含益生元和适应原。
I discovered AG1 way back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since.
我早在 2012 年就发现了 AG1，那时我还没有播客，从那时起我就每天都在服用它。
The reason I started taking AG1, and the reason I still take it every day, is because AG1 is, to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market.
我开始服用 AG1 的原因，以及我仍然每天服用的原因，是因为据我所知，AG1 是市场上质量最高、最全面的基础营养补充剂。
AG1 is designed to support things like gut health, immune health, and overall energy, and it does so by helping to fill any gaps that you might have in your daily nutrition.
AG1 旨在支持肠道健康、免疫健康和整体能量等方面，它通过帮助填补您日常营养中可能存在的任何缺口来实现这一目标。
I get asked pretty much all the time, "If I could only take one supplement, what should that supplement be?" And my answer is always AG1.
我经常被问到，“如果我只能服用一种补充剂，那么该补充剂应该是什么？”我的答案始终是AG1。
It has just been so helpful for supporting all aspects of physical health, mental health, and performance.
它对于支持身体健康、心理健康和表现的各个方面都非常有帮助。
If you would like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 以获得特别优惠。
For a limited time, AG1 is giving away a free bottle of their new omega-3 coenzyme Q10 product.
AG1 限时免费赠送一瓶新的 omega-3 辅酶 Q10 产品。
Omega-3 and coenzyme Q10 are known to support cardiovascular health, cellular health, and energy generally, brain health, and much more.
众所周知，Omega-3 和辅酶 Q10 可支持心血管健康、细胞健康、能量、大脑健康等。
I personally take them both every day.
我个人每天都会服用它们。
Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a free bottle of the new omega-3 coenzyme Q10 with your first AG1 subscription.
同样，请访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman，首次订阅 AG1 即可免费获得一瓶新型 omega-3 辅酶 Q10。
Seems to me that barring, again, an emotional or physical safety issue, the less that couples are talking to other people besides a trained therapist- Yeah ...
在我看来，除非出现情感或身体安全问题，夫妻除了受过训练的治疗师之外与其他人交谈的次数就越少 - 是的......
if they choose to do that- Yeah ...
如果他们选择这样做-是的...
or maybe not even doing that, about their relationship, probably the more protected their relationship is- Oh, that's interesting ...
或者甚至可能不这样做，关于他们的关系，可能他们的关系受到更多保护 - 哦，这很有趣......
from the darts of envious people.
来自嫉妒之人的飞镖。
Yeah.
是的。
The unhelpful positive comments from people, right?
人们无益的积极评论，对吧？
Because there could be- Yeah ...
因为可能有——是的...
instances where a relationship is really flagging and someone doesn't disclose that, and they don't really understand what's going on.
某些情况下，一段关系确实正在恶化，但有人没有透露这一点，而且他们并不真正了解发生了什么。
And were they not to share that then everyone's getting all this positive input, and they think, "Well, I think this is just how it's supposed to go." Yeah.
如果他们不分享这一点，那么每个人都会得到所有这些积极的反馈，他们会想，“好吧，我认为事情应该是这样的。”是的。
So there's the suffering in silence piece.
所以就有了《沉默中的痛苦》这一段。
Yep.
是的。
I don't think that's good.
我认为这不好。
But there's the kind of going out for external assessment piece.
但有一种出去进行外部评估的情况。
And as I say this, it's funny because you're at UC Davis, and I did my PhD there.
正如我所说，这很有趣，因为你在加州大学戴维斯分校，而我在那里完成了博士学位。
I was just remembering, when you pick projects in graduate school, you get some consensus about what's a good project.
我只是记得，当你在研究生院选择项目时，你会对什么是好项目达成一些共识。
Yeah.
是的。
But so much of becoming a good scientist is kind of learning to put up the middle finger and just keep going.
但要成为一名优秀的科学家，就需要学会竖起中指并继续前进。
Yeah.
是的。
The sort of pressure test of doing science- Yeah ...
做科学的压力测试——是的......
is people going, "Well, is that really that interesting?" And you don't really know how much to pay attention to it, and it kind of pays to be a little bit- Yep ...
人们会问，“嗯，这真的那么有趣吗？”你真的不知道该关注多少，而且稍微关注一下是值得的——是的......
bulldog-ish and just go, "Yeah, I don't know." And just ignore it- Yeah ...
像斗牛犬一样，然后说：“是的，我不知道。”然后忽略它-是的...
and just keep going.
继续前进。
I can say this is also true in any kind of creative endeavor or public facing life.
我可以说，在任何类型的创造性努力或面向公众的生活中也是如此。
Yeah.
是的。
It doesn't make good adaptive sense to pay too much attention, but nobody wants- Yeah ...
过度关注并没有很好的适应意义，但没有人想要——是的……
to be the person that steps in it or does something really stupid.
成为介入其中或做一些非常愚蠢的事情的人。
But in relationships, if something feels good, maybe we shouldn't be going out and putting our finger in the wind- Yeah ...
但在人际关系中，如果感觉良好，也许我们不应该出去冒险——是的……
to get input.
获取输入。
So it's fascinating because I mentioned earlier that, right, the extent to which you feel at least, like the people around you have your relationship's back, that's a useful thing.
所以这很有趣，因为我之前提到过，对，至少你感觉周围的人支持你的关系，这是一件有用的事情。
But I think that probably isn't happening through a process of, yeah, like pseudo therapy.
但我认为这可能不会通过伪治疗的过程发生。
I want to talk to my friends about my relationship.
我想和我的朋友谈论我的关系。
Or at least to the extent that that is happening, I bet you're right.
或者至少在这种情况正在发生的情况下，我敢打赌你是对的。
That has some real risks.
这确实存在一些风险。
I think probably the good version of this process, or the one that I would advocate for, comes from research looking at couple friends or double date nights.
我认为这个过程的好版本，或者我所提倡的版本，可能来自对情侣朋友或双人约会之夜的研究。
So I'm not asking you for input on my relationship, but in effect, I'm asking you and maybe your partner to experience our relationship in real time by hanging out together, the four of us.
所以我并不是要求你对我的关系提供意见，但实际上，我是在要求你和你的伴侣通过我们四个人一起出去玩来实时体验我们的关系。
And so that can often feel like validation without explicitly asking for it, and I think that can often be a very good thing.
因此，这通常感觉像是在没有明确要求的情况下进行验证，我认为这通常是一件非常好的事情。
And there's research showing that, generally, couples who feel like they have couple friends and are embedded in networks like that, that generally tends to go well on average.
研究表明，一般来说，那些觉得自己有情侣朋友并融入这样的网络的夫妻，平均来说往往会相处得很好。
So yeah, I would think about it that way.
所以是的，我会这样想。
It's like you can feel that you have the support of the people around you without directly asking for their assessment of your relationship, because the reality is other people don't know.
就好像你可以感觉到你得到了周围人的支持，而无需直接询问他们对你们关系的评价，因为现实是其他人不知道。
And this is hard as a judge, because when I encounter couples, and I have friends who are in relationships, it is so tempting to look at that relationship and think like, "Man, she shouldn't have done that," or, "I don't know, if I were her, I wouldn't stand for this." But I'm not in that relationship.
作为法官，这很难，因为当我遇到夫妻，并且我有恋爱中的朋友时，很容易看到这段关系并想，“伙计，她不应该这样做，”或者，“我不知道，如果我是她，我不会容忍这种行为。”但我不属于那种关系。
So unless you are a therapist and they're coming to you for therapy, I find it useful to try to resist that impulse because a relationship is this vast, deep store of information that two people have, and often we're not privy to what's really going on there.
因此，除非你是一名治疗师并且他们来找你接受治疗，否则我发现尝试抵制这种冲动很有用，因为关系是两个人拥有的巨大而深入的信息存储，而我们通常不知道那里到底发生了什么。
I'm going back to junior high school again.
我又要回到初中了。
Yeah.
是的。
And I can remember at this one dance- I hope this isn't traumatic.
我记得在这场舞会上——我希望这不会造成创伤。
No, it's not.
不，不是。
Not at all.
一点也不。
But we had this all-girls school in our town- Yeah ...
但我们镇上有一所女子学校 - 是的......
Castilleja School- Yeah ...
卡斯蒂利亚学校-是的...
which was a boarding school.
那是一所寄宿学校。
And so their dances were the best because they'd invite people from other schools.
所以他们的舞蹈是最好的，因为他们邀请了其他学校的人。
Yeah.
是的。
But all the guys were really excited to go, right?
但所有人都非常兴奋去，对吧？
Yeah.
是的。
Because the numbers were really worked out really well, and there were a lot- Got it.
因为这些数字确实计算得非常好，而且有很多——明白了。
Yeah ...
是啊...
because women and boys and girls- Yeah ...
因为女人、男孩和女孩——是的......
it was an all school, right- Right ...
那是一所综合性学校，对-对...
would go to these dances, but that means you just have an outsized pool of people.
会去参加这些舞会，但这意味着你的人数太多了。
So everyone got- Yeah ...
所以每个人都得到了——是的...
someone to dance with at some point.
在某个时刻可以一起跳舞的人。
This is what- Yeah ...
这就是——是啊...
mattered in the seventh grade.
在七年级很重要。
Yep.
是的。
Right?
正确的？
But there were these people, I have to say, there were these individuals who were not going through the admittedly tense challenge of- Yeah ...
但我不得不说，有些人并没有经历公认的紧张挑战——是的……
first dance, first slow dance.
第一支舞，第一支慢舞。
This was before phones, and it was- Yeah ...
那是在电话出现之前，那是——是的……
tense then, too.
那时也很紧张。
Yeah.
是的。
And they weren't doing any of that.
而他们并没有这样做。
What were they doing?
他们在做什么？
They were running around telling people about who was doing what- Yeah ...
他们到处跑，告诉人们谁在做什么——是的……
and who was doing that.
以及是谁在做那件事。
And I remember thinking at the time, I'm no psychologist, then or now, but thinking, like, "They're avoiding the whole thing." Yeah.
我记得当时我想，无论当时还是现在，我都不是心理学家，但我想，“他们正在回避整件事。”是的。
This is like going to a soccer game, and instead of playing soccer, they're critiquing people from the sidelines- Yeah ...
这就像去看一场足球比赛，他们不是在踢足球，而是在场边批评别人——是的……
because it's a lot easier to do that than to actually get out there- Than be in the game.
因为这样做比真正走出去比参与游戏要容易得多。
...
...
and risk being the goalie that lets the winning shot through.
并冒着成为让制胜球射门的守门员的风险。
Yeah.
是的。
And I remember thinking, like, "These people are really corrosive." One or two in particular.
我记得我当时想，“这些人真的很具有腐蚀性。”特别是一两个。
I don't know whatever became of them.
我不知道他们怎么样了。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hopefully, they're doing well in their lives, they got over this.
希望他们的生活过得很好，他们已经克服了这个问题。
But those people exist throughout life.
但这些人终其一生都存在。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Meaning they're rarely the people that are happy in their own relationship life.
这意味着他们很少是在自己的关系生活中感到幸福的人。
Now, I have to say, it's probably a Y chromosome link disorder, but I assume that my male friends who are in a relationship, if they're still in the relationship, that it's going great.
现在，我不得不说，这可能是 Y 染色体连锁紊乱，但我认为我正在恋爱中的男性朋友，如果他们仍然处于恋爱关系中，那就会进展顺利。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
That's funny.
这很有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's not a lot of feedback.
没有太多反馈。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's not a whole lot of feedback exchange.
没有太多的反馈交流。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That said, if something were really off, I assume that they would bring it up, but probably not to me.
也就是说，如果确实有什么问题，我认为他们会提出来，但可能不会向我提出。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I do think that there's probably a sex difference here, and these things are changing now.
我确实认为这里可能存在性别差异，而且这些事情现在正在发生变化。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I think that there's not a lot of sitting around talking about how well or poorly the relationship is going, and sort of like, you ask about somebody's spouse, like, "How are they doing?" And they go, "Yeah, great."
但我认为，没有太多人坐在一起谈论关系的好坏，就像你问某人的配偶一样，“他们过得怎么样？”他们说：“是的，太棒了。”
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"We did this this weekend." There's not a whole lot of, "Yeah, we had this one moment of exchange that was kind of sticky.
“我们这个周末就这么做了。”并没有太多的内容，“是的，我们有过这样一瞬间的交流，有点粘。
Can I get your input on it?"
我可以听听你的意见吗？”
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's not happening.
那并没有发生。
That's just not happening, at least not in my life.
但这并没有发生，至少在我的生活中没有。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
I'm glad you brought up these gender differences because I think you're hitting on one that at least, again, as a relationships researcher, I would sit here and say, "I think this is the big one." And the big one is that women generally are better at cultivating social support from all corners of their lives, not just their romantic partner.
我很高兴你提出了这些性别差异，因为我认为你至少再次提到了一个问题，作为一名关系研究人员，我会坐在这里说，“我认为这是一个大问题。”最重要的是，女性通常更善于从生活的各个角落培养社会支持，而不仅仅是她们的浪漫伴侣。
Whereas for men, it's largely their romantic partner.
而对于男性来说，这主要是他们的浪漫伴侣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
That's where they're getting most of their support, intimacy needs met, probably the person who, at least for a while, is mostly in their corner.
这是他们获得大部分支持、亲密需求得到满足的地方，可能是至少在一段时间内主要站在他们一边的人。
And this is why you see across the full range of the arc of a relationship that men are always a little bit more eager than women.
这就是为什么在一段关系的各个方面你都会看到男人总是比女人更渴望一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Eager in what sense?
渴望在什么意义上？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Eager in all the ways.
各方面都渴望。
I want to be in this relationship in the first place.
我首先想维持这段关系。
I'm more likely to say I love you first.
我更有可能先说我爱你。
I'm more likely to want to be exclusive.
我更有可能想要排他性。
I'm more likely to want to take things to the next level.
我更有可能想要将事情提升到一个新的水平。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Men are more willing to do that.
男性更愿意这样做。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Men.
男人。
Men across the board.
男人全线。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This runs countercurrent to all this stuff about men being non-committal.
这与所有关于男人不置可否的事情背道而驰。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Right.
正确的。
There's new review papers on this that are really compelling, and it's kind of the same effect size across the board, which is how we talk about how big is the sex difference.
关于这一点的新评论论文非常引人注目，而且全面的效应大小是相同的，这就是我们谈论性别差异有多大的方式。
It's medium size, but it's just right there all the way through.
它中等大小，但始终恰到好处。
Through breaking up, who's more likely to want to break up?
通过分手，谁更可能想分手？
It's women who are more likely to want to break up.
女性更容易想要分手。
Men are more likely to be thinking about their exes.
男人更有可能想到他们的前任。
And the-
还有-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not while they're in a relationship.
不是当他们处于恋爱关系时。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Right.
对。
Not while they're in a relationship.
不是当他们处于恋爱关系时。
Right.
正确的。
Now it's over, I'm thinking about what she's doing.
现在一切都结束了，我在想她在做什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's the meme.
这就是模因。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I went on a lot-
我去了很多-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
It's not the meme.
这不是模因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The meme is like, who's he thinking about?
模因就像，他在想谁？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, yeah.
好吧，是的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
The reason put forward for this, and I find it very compelling, is that that's because men just don't quite have their social lives put together in the same way that women do.
提出这个的原因，我发现它非常引人注目，是因为男人并没有像女人那样把他们的社交生活组织起来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Meaning they don't have a lot of male friends or, by the way-
这意味着他们没有很多男性朋友，或者顺便说一句——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Because you don't want to go to your friend's
因为你不想去你朋友家
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I should've said a disclaimer at the beginning.
我应该在一开始就说免责声明。
I should've said this.
我应该这么说。
To make the conversation more fluid-
为了让对话更加流畅——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
we're framing everything in the context of heterosexual pairings.
我们将一切都放在异性配对的背景下。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I think it's fair to assume-
但我认为可以公平地假设——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that this would also extend to homosexual pairings-
这也将延伸到同性恋配对——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
I think it would, yes
我想会的，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in many ways.
在很多方面。
But men have friends.
但男人都有朋友。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I realize activity-based friendships-
我认识到基于活动的友谊-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
are kind of the-
是一种-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
dominant theme.
主导主题。
Men not having connection in other things.
男人与其他事情没有联系。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could it be that the connection that I feel to my male friends and coworkers-
难道是我与男性朋友和同事之间的联系——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is very deep.
很深。
They're important to me.
他们对我很重要。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're like family to me by now.
他们现在对我来说就像家人一样。
We spend so much time together.
我们在一起度过了很多时间。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it feels connected, but it's a very different kind of, I don't ever think of the word intimacy.
所以感觉是有联系的，但这是一种非常不同的类型，我从来没有想到过亲密这个词。
I think of trust.
我想到了信任。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm not trying to just put up a wall to my whatever feminine traits I happen to harbor.
我并不是想为我所拥有的女性特征筑起一堵墙。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm cool with that.
我对此很满意。
I'm good with the idea that I have emotions-
我很乐意接受我有情感的想法-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and that I have needs and stuff.
我有需要和东西。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I think it just makes good intuitive sense to me that if I have something that I want input on that has more of an emotional undercurrent, that I would bring that to my romantic partner.
但我认为这对我来说很直观，如果我有一些我想要输入的东西，其中有更多的情感暗流，我会把它带给我的浪漫伴侣。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
So here's the question I would pose, and I would be clear, I'm not a therapist, I'm a scientist, but I would ask you this.
这是我要提出的问题，我要明确的是，我不是治疗师，我是科学家，但我会问你这个问题。
If something went wrong, do you feel like you have a sense that there are other people in your life, not your partner, but other people that you could go to if you needed to?
如果出了问题，你是否觉得你的生活中还有其他人，不是你的伴侣，而是你需要时可以去找的其他人？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Definitely.
绝对是。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
See, that is the essence of social support.
看，这就是社会支持的本质。
It's actually not literally do you take people up on it.
实际上，你并不是真的让人们接受它。
It's do you kind of have a vague sense-
你是否有一种模糊的感觉——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm
嗯
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
...
...
that people are around, and that's the part that matters.
人们就在身边，这才是最重要的。
That's the part that gives us the health and well-being benefits.
这就是给我们带来健康和福祉益处的部分。
It's like a bank account you never have to dip into.
它就像一个您永远不必动用的银行账户。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
It just gives you the sense of security.
它只是给你安全感。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I've had to dip into it.
好吧，我不得不深入其中。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Right.
正确的。
There you go.
就这样吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Luckily, it's a vast account.
幸运的是，这是一个巨大的帐户。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Right.
正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I try not to make too many withdrawals on it.
但我尽量不要提款太多。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So just the feeling that it's there is really the core component, and I think there are a lot of men, not you and not me, but a lot of men out there that don't feel like they have that social support bank account.
因此，感觉它的存在确实是核心组成部分，我认为有很多男人，不是你也不是我，而是很多男人感觉自己没有社会支持银行账户。
And-
还有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like a close male friend-
就像亲密的男性朋友一样——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or female friend.
或女性朋友。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yep, or female friend.
是的，或者女性朋友。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's purely platonic.
这纯粹是柏拉图式的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah, or family for that matter.
是的，或者是家人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Who's more likely to lose touch with siblings?
谁更容易与兄弟姐妹失去联系？
I'm willing to bet that that's more likely to be men, too.
我敢打赌，这也更有可能是男性。
So I think this is part of the modern challenge of masculinity that worries me, that I point to.
所以我认为这是现代男子气概挑战的一部分，让我担心，我指出。
I want to help men at least have that sense.
我想帮助男人至少拥有这种意识。
I think they can cultivate it through all the activity-based things that you describe, and I did that myself throughout my 20s and 30s.
我认为他们可以通过你所描述的所有基于活动的事情来培养这种能力，我自己在 20 多岁和 30 多岁的时候就这样做了。
I could not count the number of kickball and softball teams that I participated in.
我数不清我参加过多少支足球队和垒球队。
And I did that not because I wanted support.
我这样做并不是因为我想要支持。
I don't think I ever got emotional and cried in front of any of those guys, but I knew they were there, and that if I ever had to go to that, I could.
我不认为我曾经在这些人面前情绪激动并哭泣过，但我知道他们就在那里，如果我必须这么做，我可以。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I'm talking about memes and internet themes, and I have to be careful doing that because I don't want to put too much weight on the direction of those things and what they really mean.
是的，我说的是模因和互联网主题，我必须小心行事，因为我不想过分重视这些事情的方向和它们的真正含义。
The science is what I'm interested in.
科学是我感兴趣的。
But I think most guys would probably say that that scene in that movie "The Town," where Ben Affleck walks in and says, "Listen, we got to do something.
但我想大多数人可能会说电影《小镇》中的那个场景，本·阿弗莱克走进来说，“听着，我们必须做点什么。
People are going to get hurt.
人们会受伤。
We got to do this." And you know, "And you can't talk to anybody." And his friend's only response is, "Who's driving?"
我们必须这样做。”你知道，“你不能和任何人说话。”他朋友唯一的回答是：“谁开车？”
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is kind of like the essence of what a lot of men want and kind of idealize male friendship as.
有点像很多男人想要的本质，并且有点理想化男性友谊。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like, we got to go bury a body or create one.
就像，我们必须去埋葬一具尸体或创造一具尸体。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's the loyalty, it's the trust.
这就是忠诚，这就是信任。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A lot's encapsulated in that.
其中包含了很多内容。
It's a bad, quote unquote, "badass scene," right?
这是一个糟糕的“糟糕的场景”，对吧？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But they're about to do something real bad.
但他们即将做出一些非常糟糕的事情。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't recommend that.
我不建议这样做。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's not the friend test you want.
这不是你想要的朋友测试。
I know people-
我认识人——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Please don't.
请不要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
have used that as the friend test, and they paid dearly for it.
他们用它作为好友测试，并为此付出了高昂的代价。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah, right.
是的，对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But the point is that friends who aren't going to ask too many questions, that they can hold in the center of their mind without any long preamble that your friend needs something, and you'll do whatever it is that they need because you love them.
但重点是，朋友们不会问太多问题，他们可以在没有任何长篇序言的情况下牢牢记住你的朋友需要什么，而你会做他们需要的任何事情，因为你爱他们。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think that that's what's the deeper layer of it.
我认为这就是它的更深层次。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yes.
是的。
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For me, I'm realizing I have this sense that there's a big contradiction, not in the scientific literature, but in the public perception.
对我来说，我意识到我有这样的感觉：存在很大的矛盾，不是在科学文献中，而是在公众的看法中。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is this.
这是哪个。
I feel like one common narrative these days is, look, men failed.
我觉得现在一种常见的说法是，看，男人失败了。
They just failed.
他们只是失败了。
They didn't step up, right?
他们没有站出来，对吗？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They weren't committal.
他们并没有承诺。
We have to take care of them.
我们必须照顾他们。
They live much longer in a relationship.
他们在恋爱关系中的寿命要长得多。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We die much earlier.
我们死得更早。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's one narrative that you hear a lot about.
这是您经常听到的一种说法。
It's a scary narrative, right?
这是一个可怕的叙述，对吧？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because you also hear the narrative, yeah, women are just very extractive.
因为你也听到过这样的说法，是的，女性的榨取能力非常强。
They'll trade up.
他们会进行交易。
You know how-
你知道如何-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
unfortunately, your friend dated your-
不幸的是，你的朋友和你约会了——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
then they broke up.
然后他们分手了。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
She broke up with you first.
她先跟你分手的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Right.
对。
Exactly.
确切地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But you know, a lot of the things that come into play, like the Coldplay concert affair that-
但你知道，很多事情都会发挥作用，比如酷玩乐队的音乐会事件——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
went viral.
病毒式传播。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was about this woman, and a lot of it was pointed at her.
都是关于这个女人的，而且很多都是针对她的。
Him, too.
他也是。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it was like a lot was made of this thing that does happen-
但这件事确实发生了很多事情——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that there's this notion like, well, who would actually pair up with their female friend.
有这样的想法，比如，谁会真正与他们的女性朋友配对。
A woman-
一个女人——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
pairing up with a female friend's husband or brother.
与女性朋友的丈夫或兄弟配对。
There's a lot of that.
这样的事有很多。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you never know how much of these narratives are being fed.
你永远不知道这些叙述有多少是被灌输的。
So I feel like now we're at this point that seems to be resolving a little bit, but we've been at this point where there are these two camps.
所以我觉得现在我们似乎正在解决一些问题，但我们已经到了存在这两个阵营的地步。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I saw something on Twitter, X, some time ago, and it just stopped me in my tracks, which said, "The way you destroy a society is to get the men and the women to hate each other." And maybe I would just underwrite-
不久前，我在 Twitter X 上看到了一些东西，它让我停下了脚步，它说：“摧毁一个社会的方式就是让男人和女人互相仇恨。”也许我会承保-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
distrust each other.
互相不信任。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
And so we need to move through this.
所以我们需要解决这个问题。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm not asking you to solve it, but what do the data say?
我不是要求你解决这个问题，但是数据说明了什么？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For instance, if we were to look at dating apps, and I ask, do you think that the dynamics on dating apps, the algorithms, which are clearly designed to make the companies money-
例如，如果我们要看看约会应用程序，我会问，您是否认为约会应用程序的动态、算法显然是为了让公司赚钱而设计的——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
do you think those are more female-driven algorithms or male-driven algorithms?
您认为这些算法是女性驱动的算法还是男性驱动的算法？
Not meaning who runs the companies.
并不是指谁经营公司。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Oh, interesting.
哦，有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We know the answer to that-
我们知道答案——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for the most part.
大多数情况下。
The question is, do you think that the apps are trying to optimize for more women to come to them or for more men to come to them and stay there?
问题是，您认为这些应用程序是在尝试优化，以吸引更多女性来找他们，还是让更多男性来找他们并留在那里？
Because the theory is always kind of launched in the opposite direction.
因为理论总是朝着相反的方向推出。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Again, if that wasn't clear, I'm just wondering who's got the power.
再说一次，如果这还不清楚，我只是想知道谁有权力。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
My understanding, now again, the dating apps are hard to decipher because these companies don't share data with us.
我的理解是，约会应用程序很难破译，因为这些公司不与我们共享数据。
I've worked with some matchmaking companies' data.
我研究过一些婚介公司的数据。
They're more interested, generally, in collaborating with scientists because they've got to make people on dates happy.
一般来说，他们对与科学家合作更感兴趣，因为他们必须让约会的人感到高兴。
They don't work on engagement.
他们不致力于参与。
They work on happy dates.
他们在快乐的约会中工作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
So they're more interested in talking to scientists.
所以他们更有兴趣与科学家交谈。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
But I think when your goal is getting users and getting engagement, what you're probably trying to do is bring more women in, because my understanding is that there's more men on the apps.
但我认为，当你的目标是吸引用户并提高参与度时，你可能要做的就是吸引更多女性加入，因为我的理解是应用程序中有更多男性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah, I think so.
是的，我想是的。
What I don't know, and I don't know if anybody knows other than the people at these companies, is like, okay, but how many of those apps are in use, and how many regular users?
我不知道，也不知道除了这些公司的人之外是否还有人知道，好吧，但是这些应用程序中有多少正在使用，有多少普通用户？
I'm not sure.
我不知道。
So you got to bring more women in, but again, engagement is the goal, right?
所以你必须让更多的女性参与进来，但同样，参与是目标，对吧？
That's what the apps want.
这就是应用程序想要的。
They want you spending time on it, and then they want you to get the fancier features.
他们希望你花时间在上面，然后他们希望你获得更高级的功能。
So is that going to be more geared toward men?
那么这会更适合男性吗？
It might be, but I'm kind of speculating here.
可能是这样，但我在这里猜测。
I expect that when you're trying to create an app for heterosexual men and women, you're going to have to somehow marry those two challenges.
我预计，当您尝试为异性恋男性和女性创建应用程序时，您将必须以某种方式将这两个挑战结合起来。
And look, one of the bigger gender differences that we see in the whole realm of sex and relationships is in swiping behavior.
看，我们在整个性和关系领域看到的更大的性别差异之一是刷卡行为。
The fact that women will swipe yes on 5% of the men they see, but men swipe yes at about 50/50.
事实上，女性会对她们见到的男性中 5% 的人表示“是”，但男性的比例约为 50/50。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But that fits the kind of evolutionary, quote unquote, "narrative." Like men being less selective-
但这符合进化论的“叙事”。就像男人的选择性较少一样——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
wanting to spread their DNA-
想要传播他们的DNA-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
this kind of thing.
这种事。
To my mind, that whole thing around men want to spread their DNA.
在我看来，男人周围的一切都想传播他们的 DNA。
Okay, I believe in evolutionary biology, sure.
好吧，我当然相信进化生物学。
But there's a lot of modern features that make accountability for offspring-
但有很多现代特征使得对后代负责——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and things.
和事情。
It's not like men can run around just having kids with anyone-
男人可不是随便跟谁生孩子就可以到处乱跑的——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and afford all of that, right?
并负担得起这一切，对吗？
We were talking earlier, there's sort of two models.
我们之前讨论过，有两种模型。
There's the Genghis Khan-
这就是成吉思汗——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
ideal within this evolutionary biology model.
在这个进化生物学模型中是理想的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then there's kind of like, where are we now?
然后有点像，我们现在在哪里？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't think anyone With the exception of some very wealthy people who have-
我认为除了一些非常富有的人之外，没有人有——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
kids with lots and lots of people, and clearly can afford it, I don't think anyone's thinking they're going to go out and just have kids with as many people-
有很多很多人的孩子，而且显然负担得起，我认为没有人认为他们会出去和那么多人一起生孩子-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as they possibly can.
他们可能可以。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Right.
对。
And so what's so interesting about these gender dynamics is that from my perspective, they tend to get the largest, the biggest gulf between men and women, in the situations that are the weirdest.
因此，这些性别动态的有趣之处在于，从我的角度来看，在最奇怪的情况下，男性和女性之间往往会出现最大、最大的鸿沟。
So for example, and this is a real study.
举例来说，这是一项真正的研究。
You recruit confederates, so that means it's somebody who's working for the experimenter, and then they go around campus, and they ask people, "I've noticed you around, and I find you very attractive.
你招募同伙，所以这意味着这是一个为实验者工作的人，然后他们在校园里走来走去，他们问人们，“我注意到你在周围，我发现你很有吸引力。
Would you like to go to bed with me?" And when you do this, you find that men are about 20 times more likely to say yes to that request than women.
你愿意和我一起上床吗？”当你这样做时，你会发现男性答应这个请求的可能性比女性高出大约 20 倍。
Very few women say yes to this request, but a reasonable number of men do.
很少有女性会答应这个要求，但有一定数量的男性会答应。
All right.
好的。
But the thing about that experiment, and that experiment is very valuable, and it's very influential, and I love at least that it was real, that people were actually out in the world doing something, even if it's a little wild and probably a little scary, especially for the women.
但关于那个实验的事情，那个实验是非常有价值的，它非常有影响力，我至少喜欢它是真实的，人们实际上在世界上做一些事情，即使它有点疯狂，可能有点可怕，特别是对于女性来说。
But if you do this one little tweak, and you say, "Yeah, okay, but how about the last time that happened to you in real life, like in a context where you knew people?" And then you look at the gender difference, it's not 20 times more, it's two times more.
但如果你做了一个小小的调整，然后你说：“是的，好吧，但是现实生活中最后一次发生在你身上的情况怎么样，比如在你认识的人的环境中？”然后你看看性别差异，不是20倍，而是两倍。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What do you mean?
你什么意思？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
It's like the last time somebody you know, among a group of friends, asked, "Hey, do you want to go hook up?" How much more likely then-
就像上次你认识的某个人在一群朋友中问：“嘿，你想勾搭吗？”那么可能性有多大——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
...
...
are men to say yes than women?
男人比女人更愿意说“是”吗？
And men are still more likely, but they're only twice as likely-
男性的可能性仍然更大，但只有两倍的可能性——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
...
...
rather than 20 times as likely.
而不是 20 倍的可能性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So this is not my belief, but the cynical incel types on the-
所以这不是我的信仰，而是那些愤世嫉俗的非自愿独身者的信仰——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
internet, or they're just cynical-
互联网，或者他们只是愤世嫉俗-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
guys will say-
伙计们会说——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
This is a good channel.
这是一个很好的渠道。
I like this
我喜欢这个
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
will say, "Oh, that's because women are sleeping around more than they used to when the first experiment was done." I don't believe that's true.
会说，“哦，那是因为女性比第一次实验完成时睡得更多。”我不相信这是真的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I can tell you that would be their reflexive response.
但我可以告诉你，这将是他们的条件反射。
So there's this ammo.
于是就有了这个弹药。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
I know.
我知道。
There's so many
有这么多
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There are these arrows that each side holds.
每边都持有这些箭头。
One side holds the-
一侧持有-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
guys aren't stepping up.
伙计们没有站出来。
They're not managing their own lives-
他们没有管理自己的生活-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
let alone making themselves somebody who would be attractive as a partner, who could listen, and help take care of somebody, because the notion of taking care is something that we can talk about.
更不用说让自己成为一个有吸引力的伴侣，能够倾听并帮助照顾别人，因为照顾的概念是我们可以谈论的。
The guys are saying, "Well, they're just all extractive."
这些人说：“好吧，他们都是榨取性的。”
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there's deceptiveness there.
这里面有欺骗性。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they'll trade up at a moment's notice.
他们会立即进行交易。
And so, I don't want to feed the flames of distrust, but the data you just provided, what is the conclusion?
所以，我不想煽动不信任的火焰，但是你刚才提供的数据，结论是什么？
So that's the result.
这就是结果。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But in that paper, the authors-
但在那篇论文中，作者——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
"We, the authors, therefore conclude that"
“因此，我们，作者，得出结论：”
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Right.
对。
So I would-
所以我会-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You know
你知道
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
...
...
conclude this, that approaching strangers is, especially in a romantic or sexual context, is very tricky, very challenging, and it is a weird modern skill because we actually evolved in environments we didn't actually meet that many strangers.
得出结论，接近陌生人，尤其是在浪漫或性的背景下，非常棘手，非常具有挑战性，这是一种奇怪的现代技能，因为我们实际上是在我们实际上没有遇到那么多陌生人的环境中进化的。
So if some people are adept at that, God bless.
因此，如果有人擅长于此，上帝保佑。
But for most of us, we had to get to know people over time.
但对于我们大多数人来说，我们必须随着时间的推移去了解人们。
We needed that long process to make a good impression on somebody, because most of us are not all that hot and not so appealing that people fall for us the moment we see them.
我们需要一个漫长的过程才能给别人留下好印象，因为我们大多数人都没有那么性感，也没有那么有吸引力，以至于人们一看到我们就会爱上我们。
And so that is what I would tell these hypothetical incels, is I think part of the problem is that you're locked into a way of thinking about sex and romance, that it's about a pickup line, or it's about an initial impression.
这就是我要告诉这些假设的非自愿独身者的，我认为部分问题在于你被困在一种关于性和浪漫的思考方式中，这与搭讪台词有关，或者与初步印象有关。
I think women are more interested in casual sex when it's somebody that they kind of know and have been friendly with for a while, and have had some good banter with.
我认为女性对随意性行为更感兴趣，因为她们认识的人，已经友好相处了一段时间，并且开过玩笑的人。
And if you surround yourself with people, not just women, but also men, and you meet friends of friends, you're going to find more opportunities that way.
如果你周围都是人，不仅是女人，还有男人，并且你遇到了朋友的朋友，这样你就会找到更多的机会。
So it's like a shift in the mindset that we have about how it is we meet people and how it is we get to know them, and that hitting on strangers is low yield, very difficult.
因此，这就像我们对于如何与人见面以及如何了解他们的心态的转变，并且认识到与陌生人的交往是低效的，非常困难的。
Spending time with friends, it's time-consuming, although it's enjoyable in and of itself.
与朋友共度时光，虽然本身很有趣，但很耗时。
It's a time-consuming approach, but it's ultimately going to be better for more people, on average, at least.
这是一种耗时的方法，但最终至少对更多人来说会更好，至少平均而言。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In light of the apps, social media, this divide, I'm very grateful that you're bringing up this notion of spending time in small groups.
鉴于应用程序、社交媒体和这种鸿沟，我非常感谢您提出在小组中度过时间的概念。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Probably around certain activities.
可能围绕某些活动。
Could be pickleball, could be a barbecue.
可能是泡菜球，也可能是烧烤。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, that's how people used to meet.
我的意思是，人们过去就是这样见面的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sometimes there's work adjacency.
有时会有工作相邻。
I think that one of the reasons the Coldplay thing went so viral is that the woman was head of HR.
我认为酷玩乐队如此火爆的原因之一是这位女士担任人力资源主管。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There were a number of things that were ethical violations independent of, like, they tried to kind of rescue it, like, "But they were in love, and their marriages were failing," and people were like, "There are violations down the line on this, right?"
有很多事情是独立于道德违规的，比如，他们试图挽救它，比如，“但他们相爱，他们的婚姻失败了”，人们就像，“这件事上有违规行为，对吧？”
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In laboratories, many people coupled up-
在实验室里，许多人耦合在一起——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in laboratories.
在实验室。
My advisors were always really adamant that no one should do that.
我的顾问总是非常坚决地认为任何人都不应该这样做。
I listened.
我听了。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Oh, interesting.
哦，有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
So they tried to lock it down.
所以他们试图封锁它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In graduate school, I worked alone in the lab.
在研究生院时，我独自在实验室工作。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But my graduate advisor actually suggested I not even date within our graduate program.
但我的研究生导师实际上建议我不要在我们的研究生课程中约会。
This is peer-to-peer.
这是点对点的。
I was a graduate student.
我是一名研究生。
And for the most part, I obeyed, but I was so focused on work.
在大多数情况下，我服从了，但我太专注于工作了。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I guess it happened with, like, you'd go to meetings, you meet other graduate students, so it's really peer-to-peer.
我想这发生在，比如，你去参加会议，你会见其他研究生，所以这真的是点对点的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In my postdoctoral laboratory, my advisor was vocal to everyone, like, "No dating in the lab." And of course, there are certain married couples nowadays with kids, several of them, in fact-
在我的博士后实验室，我的导师对每个人都直言不讳，比如“实验室里禁止约会”。当然，现在有些已婚夫妇有孩子，事实上，其中有几个-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that met in the lab just by proximity, interest, and who knows, aliquoting prowess.
他们在实验室相遇只是因为距离近、兴趣大，谁知道呢，还有分装能力。
Who knows?
谁知道？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Somebody out there-
外面有人——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Somebody out there
外面有人
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
...
...
is an incredible aliquoter-
是一个令人难以置信的等分器-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Exactly
正是如此
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
...
...
that never got to attract somebody.
这永远无法吸引某人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Totally.
完全可以。
To my knowledge, by the way, folks, again, this is not a way to attract a mate, unless you're a molecular biologist, perhaps.
顺便说一句，据我所知，伙计们，这不是吸引配偶的方法，除非您是分子生物学家。
But I think that there's real value in this because unlike our earlier discussion, where other people's input can be kind of toxic to the process of- Understanding and really getting in touch with one's sense of taste.
但我认为这确实有价值，因为与我们之前的讨论不同，其他人的输入可能会对理解和真正接触自己的味觉的过程产生某种毒害。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I like this person, I don't.
我喜欢这个人，又不喜欢。
This feels safe, it doesn't feel safe.
这样感觉安全，又感觉不安全。
And I'm not using, by the way, the safe language to be politically correct.
顺便说一句，我使用安全语言并不是为了政治正确。
Some people feel emotionally unsafe because it's just like if there were a stressful circumstance, they would dissolve into a puddle of their own tears.
有些人在情感上感到不安全，因为就像在有压力的情况下，他们会化成一滩眼泪。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a different version of it, right?
这是它的不同版本，对吧？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Right.
正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think we all kind of flip to the extremes, but that's another aspect.
我认为我们都会走向极端，但这是另一个方面。
But this is a context in which you can get a read of how someone behaves, their values, their reflexive levels of kindness or-
但在这种情况下，你可以了解某人的行为方式、他们的价值观、他们反射性的善意程度，或者——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
lack thereof with other people.
与其他人缺乏联系。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You get a lot of-
你会得到很多——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
data-
数据-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in a setting that you're hopefully enjoying yourself-
在一个你希望自己享受的环境中-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in any way.
以任何方式。
That seems very, very valuable.
这看起来非常非常有价值。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
So we're talking '80s movies and '90s movies already, so I'm going to throw out "Say Anything."
所以我们已经在谈论 80 年代的电影和 90 年代的电影了，所以我要放弃“畅所欲言”。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Do you remember "Say Anything?"
你还记得《说点什么》吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Okay.
好的。
So the John Cusack lead character asks out the Ione Skye character, but where they go on their first date is absolutely fascinating.
因此，约翰·库萨克的主角约了艾恩·斯凯的角色出去，但他们第一次约会的地点绝对令人着迷。
They go to a party.
他们去参加一个聚会。
So they are clearly going together, but they don't spend the whole party attached to each other, and they're not interviewing each other like they met on an app.
所以他们显然是一起去的，但他们并没有在整个聚会上互相依恋，也没有像在应用程序上见面那样互相采访。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
They're actually kind of watching each other as they float through these various groups, and sometimes they're talking to other folks about the fact that they're kind of on a date right now, and how is it going, but they're also talking to each other, and it's kind of a beautiful depiction of this old kind of lost art of you're dating, but you're also with other people, seeing how they behave.
当他们在不同的人群中游荡时，他们实际上是在互相观察，有时他们会和其他人谈论他们现在正在约会的事实，以及进展如何，但他们也在互相交谈，这是对这种古老的失落艺术的美丽描绘，即你正在约会，但你也和其他人在一起，观察他们的行为。
And one of the moments where Ione Skye, you can see her starting to fall for John Cusack, is when he's actually looking out for some of the other folks there, like taking their keys away so they don't drive.
你可以看到艾恩·斯凯 (Ione Skye) 开始爱上约翰·库萨克 (John Cusack) 的时刻之一，就是他实际上在照顾那里的其他一些人，比如拿走他们的钥匙，这样他们就不会开车了。
And I think that-
我认为——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
...
...
that idea of watching how we behave around other people can be very powerful.
观察我们在他人面前的行为举止的想法可能非常强大。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So one of his unique qualities was that he's protective of other people-
所以他独特的品质之一就是他会保护别人——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and responsible, and he put other people's safety ahead of his own-
他有责任心，将他人的安全置于自己的安全之上——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
desire to go out and drink that night or something.
那天晚上想出去喝酒什么的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Right.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I forgot that scene.
Yeah, I forgot that scene.
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It's really-
真的是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a perfect segue to what I was going to say next, but I'm brought to this mildly traumatic experience in high school where I didn't go to any-
这是我接下来要说的话的完美延续，但我在高中时经历了这段轻微的创伤经历，我没有上过任何学校——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
This is the good stuff
这是好东西
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
high school dances.
高中舞蹈。
Early in high school, I was really into the skateboard community, and just really focused on that.
高中初期，我真的很喜欢滑板社区，并且非常专注于此。
And then, it was my junior year of high school.
And then, it was my junior year of high school.
The now woman, then young woman, girl, whatever-
现在的女人，然后的年轻女人，女孩，无论什么——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
asked me.
问我。
It was the Sadie Hawkins dance, where the girls ask the boys.
这是萨迪·霍金斯的舞蹈，女孩们向男孩们询问。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Oh, okay.
哦，好吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This was very old-fashioned, right?
This was very old-fashioned, right?
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
It's like I've heard this.
It's like I've heard this.
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It already assumes, right-
它已经假设了，对吧-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that the guys always ask the girls-
that the guys always ask the girls-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which was pretty much the standard.
which was pretty much the standard.
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We go, and she was a year older and extremely beautiful, super kind.
我们去了，她大了一岁，非常漂亮，超级善良。
It ended up being a very long-term relationship.
It ended up being a very long-term relationship.
But I remember going, and she had something back then where her hands would get really cold.
但我记得去的时候，她的手会变得很冷。
She had this thing where it was a cold night-
在一个寒冷的夜晚，她有这样的事——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and so she ran to the bathroom.
于是她就跑进了卫生间。
She said, "I have to warm my hands."
She said, "I have to warm my hands."
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
She was in there a really long time.
She was in there a really long time.
And I'm standing out there, and people are coming up to me, and they're like, "What are you doing here?" Like, "Why are you at a dance?"
我站在外面，人们向我走来，他们问我：“你在这里做什么？” Like, "Why are you at a dance?"
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I said, "So-and-so invited me," and no one believed me.
我说：“某某邀请了我。”但没有人相信我。
They were like, "There's no chance." And I have to say, it was the most mortifying thing.
他们说：“没有机会了。”我不得不说，这是最令人羞愧的事情。
And I kept waiting for this moment where she would come out of the bathroom and vindicate me.
我一直在等待她从浴室出来为我辩护的那一刻。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they all kept dissipating before she came back.
而在她回来之前，它们都不断消散。
She eventually came back.
她最终还是回来了。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Oh, that's funny.
哦，这很有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I just remember thinking, like, "Oh, man, nobody even..." And I remember thinking, "I'm either completely outclassed-"
我只记得我在想，“哦，伙计，甚至没有人……”我记得我在想，“我要么完全被超越了——”
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"...
“……
like completely outclassed, or this is one of the best opportunities that ever landed-
就像完全被超越了一样，或者这是有史以来最好的机会之一——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in my lap, and I'm going to pursue this with everything I've got." So I went with the second thing, and anyway, we-
在我的腿上，我将尽我所能去追求这个目标。”所以我选择了第二件事，无论如何，我们-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
This is John Cusack energy right here.
这就是约翰·库萨克的能量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
It was brutal.
这很残酷。
I had to sit there and go, you know?
我必须坐在那里然后走，你知道吗？
And no one believed me.
没有人相信我。
They actually thought I just snuck in or something like that.
他们实际上以为我只是偷偷溜进来或者类似的事情。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Anyway, the John Cusack example is a really good one because his character in that movie is a little awkward along certain dimensions.
不管怎样，约翰·库萨克的例子是一个非常好的例子，因为他在那部电影中的角色在某些方面有点尴尬。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He's certainly not as "ambitious" in the typical sense-
他当然没有典型意义上的“野心”——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
although he wants to be a great kickboxer.
尽管他想成为一名出色的跆拳道运动员。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Kickboxing, sport of the future.
跆拳道，未来的运动。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Right.
对。
Exactly.
确切地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
There's a great scene between him and her dad, where he's explaining what he's going to do in life, and-
他和她爸爸之间有一个很棒的场景，他正在解释他一生要做什么，而且——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and not in any kind of fluent way.
并且不是以任何流畅的方式。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And her family clearly has other plans for her.
而她的家人显然对她另有计划。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it gets to this thing that I had written down because I wanted to ask about next, which is this notion of texting in particular.
但这是我写下来的事情，因为我想问下一个问题，特别是短信的概念。
So not even apps, but let's just say it's migrated-
所以甚至不是应用程序，但我们只能说它已经迁移了-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
off app or people meet, they exchange number, and there's some texting, right?
关闭应用程序或人们见面，他们交换号码，并且有一些短信，对吗？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And this notion of the kind of unique advantage, at least early on-
这种独特优势的概念，至少在早期——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Hmm
嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that I think can be somewhat misleading of people who are hyperverbal.
我认为这可能会误导那些语言过度的人。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Oh, interesting.
哦，有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And in particular, among men.
尤其是在男性之间。
So here's what, I think years ago when I was on the job market for academic science, a really fantastic neurobiologist who actually ran, let's just say a very famous school in Boston's brain science center-
所以，我想，几年前，当我在学术科学的就业市场上时，一位非常出色的神经生物学家实际上跑了，让我们只说波士顿脑科学中心的一所非常著名的学校——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Okay
好的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
they never admit the name of their school anyway- ...
无论如何，他们从来不承认他们学校的名字——......
said to me, he said, "You know the worst part about the job search process in neuroscience is that it selects for hyperverbal people, where people can present their data-
他对我说，“你知道，神经科学领域的求职过程中最糟糕的部分是，它会选择语言能力超强的人，人们可以在其中展示他们的数据——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
excite people about it, present their vision."
让人们对此感到兴奋，展示他们的愿景。”
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And he said, "And there's so many amazing scientists that just don't know how to communicate their data, and we're selecting for someone who can also teach, who can also do these things."
他说，“有这么多了不起的科学家，只是不知道如何交流他们的数据，而我们正在选择一个既能教学、又能做这些事情的人。”
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I realize he's absolutely right.
我意识到他是绝对正确的。
And some people can overcome this, but some of the-
有些人可以克服这个问题，但有些-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
best scientists in the world, speaking isn't their forte.
世界上最好的科学家，演讲并不是他们的强项。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
So in the realm of text communication, there's a kind of a bias toward can somebody, like a good listener in a-
因此，在文本通信领域，人们对某人存在一种偏见，比如一个好的倾听者——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
face-to-face interaction, like a guy can just sit there, listen, not interrupt, nod-
面对面的互动，就像一个人可以坐在那里，倾听，而不是打断，点头——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Be a good audience.
做一个好观众。
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
maybe reflect.
也许反映。
Maybe reflect.
或许反思一下。
Tell me more.
告诉我更多。
Well, that must have been interesting, hard, whatever.
嗯，那一定很有趣，也很困难，无论如何。
And can convey a lot of genuine ability to communicate and bond.
并且可以传达出很多真正的沟通和联系能力。
Over text, just listening doesn't work.
通过文字，仅听是行不通的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Doesn't work.
不起作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In fact, if it's just like-
事实上，如果它就像——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Doesn't work
不起作用
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
wow, that must have been hard to a paragraph this long-
哇，写这么长的一段一定很难——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it starts to fall flat.
它开始变得平淡。
And this is where I think some people might be screaming, "No, no, no, that's what I want."
我认为有些人可能会尖叫，“不，不，不，这就是我想要的。”
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But there's a strong selection process now for people who can communicate quickly with their thumbs-
但现在对于那些能够用拇指快速沟通的人来说，有一个强有力的选择过程——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
be witty in writing, and so the hyperverbal thing has moved to text.
写作时要诙谐，所以超语言的东西已经转移到了文字上。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a challenge.
这是一个挑战。
And I do think, even though some men are very hyperverbal, there is a sex difference here-
我确实认为，尽管有些男人非常爱说话，但这里还是存在性别差异的——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that we are well aware of.
我们都很清楚。
So do you think that that's skewing things?
那么你认为这会扭曲事情吗？
Because the ability to get and keep somebody's interest early on is strongly dependent on, these days, on texting.
因为如今，能否尽早获得并保持某人的兴趣很大程度上取决于短信。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Right.
对。
I think this is a really good point.
我认为这是一个很好的观点。
I was reminded of some work, this is early work in the online interaction space, that suggested that actually anxious people get a lot out of being able to communicate w- with a keyboard or with texting because they don't get so overwhelmed.
我想起了一些工作，这是在线交互领域的早期工作，这表明实际上焦虑的人可以从使用键盘或短信进行交流中获益匪浅，因为他们不会感到不知所措。
So this is probably going to be somebody who also on a first date would be having a bit of a tough time.
所以这个人在第一次约会时可能会遇到一些困难。
So it might be that actually texting for them has at least the advantage of reducing some of the anxiety because they can take a minute to think about what they want to say before they have to actually come out with it.
因此，实际上为他们发短信可能至少具有减少一些焦虑的优势，因为他们可以在必须真正说出来之前花一点时间思考自己想说的话。
But I also think you're right that the ability to be witty over text, as opposed to the kind of non-verbal listening that you're describing, that is going to be a special advantage for some people today.
但我也认为你是对的，对文本的机智能力，而不是你所描述的那种非语言倾听，这对今天的一些人来说将是一个特殊的优势。
So it could very well be skewing things in the way that you describe.
所以它很可能会像你所描述的那样扭曲事情。
There's not great data on this either.
这方面也没有很好的数据。
I mentioned earlier, we don't have great data on the arc of the relationship, but some of the people that have tackled this question, there's this great researcher named Mimi Bryneberg at Ohio State, and what she does is she gets couples who are together and then says, "Let me see your texts," and then gets the whole text thread, with their permission, all the way back to when they first started texting.
我之前提到过，我们没有关于关系弧线的大量数据，但有些人已经解决了这个问题，俄亥俄州立大学有一位名叫 Mimi Brineberg 的伟大研究人员，她所做的就是让情侣在一起，然后说，“让我看看你的短信”，然后在他们的许可下获取整个短信线索，一直追溯到他们第一次开始发短信的时候。
And what you see are some cool things.
你看到的是一些很酷的东西。
Essentially, their styles of communicating start to cohere, right?
从本质上讲，他们的沟通方式开始趋于一致，对吧？
It's like a pattern of mutual influence where they get a similar cadence, and they start using similar words and other things as they're talking to each other.
这就像一种相互影响的模式，他们有相似的节奏，并且在互相交谈时开始使用相似的词语和其他事物。
Now, of course, those are the successful cases.
当然，现在这些都是成功的案例。
So what would it look like if we had the unsuccessful cases?
那么如果我们有不成功的案例会是什么样子呢？
And I think you're right.
我认为你是对的。
We would see that the people who can't match or can't be witty early on, that those are the text threads that never become couples.
我们会看到，那些不能匹配或不能机智的人，那些是永远不会成为情侣的文字线索。
So we just have to figure out how to recruit those folks to be in our studies.
所以我们只需要弄清楚如何招募这些人来参加我们的研究。
Give us the last 10 threads of dates that never went anywhere.
给我们最后 10 条从未发生过的日期。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, LMNT.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 LMNT。
LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't.
LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您需要的一切，没有您不需要的东西。
That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in the correct ratios, but no sugar.
这意味着电解质、钠、镁和钾的比例都正确，但不含糖。
Proper hydration is critical for brain and body function.
适当的水合作用对于大脑和身体功能至关重要。
Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish your cognitive and physical performance.
即使是轻微程度的脱水也会降低您的认知和身体表现。
It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes.
获得充足的电解质也很重要。
The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, are vital for the functioning of all cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells.
电解质（钠、镁和钾）对于体内所有细胞（尤其是神经元或神经细胞）的功能至关重要。
Drinking LMNT makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes.
饮用 LMNT 可以轻松确保您获得足够的水分和电解质。
My days tend to start really fast, meaning I have to jump right into work or right into exercise.
我的日子往往开始得很快，这意味着我必须立即投入工作或立即锻炼。
So to make sure that I'm hydrated and I have sufficient electrolytes, when I first wake up in the morning, I drink 16 to 32 ounces of water with an LMNT packet dissolved in it.
因此，为了确保我有足够的水分和足够的电解质，当我早上第一次醒来时，我会喝 16 至 32 盎司的水，其中溶解有 LMNT 包。
I also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes.
我还会在进行任何体育锻炼时饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT，尤其是在炎热的日子里，当我大量出汗并失去水和电解质时。
LMNT has a bunch of great-tasting flavors.
LMNT 有很多美味的口味。
In fact, I love them all.
事实上，我爱他们所有人。
I love the watermelon, the raspberry, the citrus, and I really love the lemonade flavor.
我喜欢西瓜、覆盆子、柑橘，而且我真的很喜欢柠檬水的味道。
So if you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with any purchase.
因此，如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman，购买任意商品即可领取免费的 LMNT 样品包。
Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.
再次强调，请访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman 索取免费样品包。
Yeah.
是的。
We're sort of veering towards compatibility when I say, if I were to ask a close family member, "What's great about the relationship you're in?" This is a woman, and she'll be referring to her male partner-
当我问一位亲密的家庭成员“你们之间的关系有什么好处？”时，我们有点倾向于兼容性。这是一个女人，她指的是她的男伴侣——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in this case.
在这种情况下。
She'll generally talk about the things that he does and the things that he is able to do in support that-
她通常会谈论他所做的事情以及他能够做的事情来支持-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Oh, interesting
哦，有趣
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
may or may not even require the ability to speak.
可能需要也可能不需要说话的能力。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now, he's not aphasic.
现在，他没有失语症。
But-
但是——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's more about what he does.
更重要的是他做了什么。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And when we've had conversations-
当我们交谈之后——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
That's interesting
这很有趣
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
on this podcast in the past about-
过去在这个播客上关于-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
kind of relationship glue and things like that, it's like, "Oh, one person always seems to make the bed by the time I'm back from the bathroom in the morning."
一种关系粘合剂之类的东西，就像，“哦，当我早上从浴室回来时，似乎总是有人整理床铺。”
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you're like, "No, my turn." Or the other person always sets out the coffee or something.
你会说：“不，轮到我了。”或者对方总是端上咖啡什么的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's the little thing phenomenon.
这就是小事现象。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sometimes it's a note.
有时它是一个注释。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But rarely is it like, "Yeah, I love the way he strings together sentences," or something like-
但很少有人会说，“是的，我喜欢他把句子串联起来的方式”，或者类似的话——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, yeah
是啊是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
"I love the way that she describes this thing." So it's often about actions-
“我喜欢她描述这件事的方式。”所以这往往与行动有关——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
at least in the observing the positive qualities of the male partner.
至少在观察男性伴侣的积极品质方面。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that's very kind of stereotypical, but I think that it's a kind of window in my mind into the difference between the quote-unquote exploration and courting process, although the courting process, what people do arguably matters more than what they say.
这是非常刻板的，但我认为这是我脑海中了解引用-不引用探索和求爱过程之间差异的窗口，尽管在求爱过程中，人们所做的事情可以说比他们所说的更重要。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the long-term thing.
而且是长期的事情。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The consistency of the stability of the relationship over time.
随着时间的推移，关系稳定性的一致性。
So I wish that, it's a shame that these apps don't select for action.
所以我希望，遗憾的是这些应用程序不选择执行操作。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
The only way to do that would be something where you would say, "Okay, if you're going to sign up for this app, we're going to ask you to go on at least three dates with anybody that you match with, and we want to see you dating in these very different circumstances where the point isn't always to just talk at each other." That also, you've got to do things together.
做到这一点的唯一方法就是你会说，“好吧，如果你要注册这个应用程序，我们会要求你与任何与你匹配的人进行至少三次约会，我们希望看到你在这些非常不同的情况下约会，而重点并不总是只是互相交谈。”另外，你们必须一起做事。
I wish there were dates that were like, "Assemble this IKEA furniture." But like, yeah.
我希望有这样的日期：“组装这件宜家家具。”但就像，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Don't people still go for a hike or go to a show?
人们不再去远足或去看演出吗？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
No, that's good too, because at least it's talking and interacting, but a different kind of talking and interacting.
不，这也很好，因为至少它是在说话和互动，但是是一种不同类型的说话和互动。
But I want physical challenges, get out of this escape room, stuff like that.
但我想要身体上的挑战，逃离密室逃脱之类的。
Anyway, I'm not actually a dating coach.
不管怎样，我实际上并不是一个约会教练。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
See how people handle under-
看看人们如何处理不足
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah, right.
是的，对。
You're right, yeah.
你是对的，是的。
So you've got to be witty, but also not panic.
所以你必须机智，但也不要惊慌。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you suggest that as a first date?
你建议第一次约会就这样吗？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
I don't know, maybe third date.
我不知道，也许是第三次约会。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Third date sounds good for escape.
第三次约会听起来很适合逃避。
I want to be clear, I've only done the escape room board games at home.
我想澄清一下，我只在家里玩过密室逃脱棋盘游戏。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're just throwing people under the bus-
你只是把人们扔到公共汽车下面-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
just to see what happens, to get that data.
只是为了看看会发生什么，获取数据。
Yeah, no, I'm just kidding.
是的，不，我只是开玩笑。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
But events, sporting events, I mean, things that are exciting, that you're doing together, but also facilitate interaction, I think can be really good.
但是活动，体育赛事，我的意思是，那些令人兴奋的事情，你们一起做的事情，而且也促进互动，我认为真的很好。
It is very, very hard, though, to simulate the patterns of what would it be like to be in a long-term relationship with this person and the 4,000 daily responsibilities that come with that.
然而，模拟与这个人建立长期关系以及随之而来的 4,000 项日常责任的模式是非常非常困难的。
And I think even when we are really crazy about somebody early on, we try to forecast what that's going to be like as best we can, but we really don't know.
我认为，即使我们很早就对某个人非常着迷，我们也会尽力预测他会是什么样子，但我们真的不知道。
And I think the beautiful thing but also the challenge that a lot of relationships have is what you do is, like you just described, okay, it becomes my job to set out the coffee, and it becomes your job to mow the lawn.
我认为，美好的事情，同时也是很多人际关系所面临的挑战，就是你所做的事情，就像你刚才描述的那样，好吧，我的工作就是准备咖啡，而你的工作就是修剪草坪。
And we create this very elaborate structure that guides not just our day-to-day lives and the crap we have to do, but it also guides how we communicate, when we communicate, what we communicate about.
我们创建了这个非常复杂的结构，它不仅指导我们的日常生活和我们必须做的事情，而且还指导我们如何沟通、何时沟通、沟通什么。
If we create a business together, that can create a relationship that starts to feel more transactional, that's maybe less warm.
如果我们一起创建一家企业，那么我们之间的关系就会开始变得更具交易性，甚至可能不再那么温暖。
It has less opportunity for connection, as opposed to creating a relationship that builds time for fun activities together, for fun experiences, or again, I recognize people are stressed and often working multiple jobs, but at least when we are interacting, are we able to interact about the fun, silly things that brought us together in the first place?
它减少了联系的机会，而不是建立一种关系，为一起有趣的活动、有趣的经历创造时间，或者再说一次，我认识到人们压力很大，而且经常从事多种工作，但至少当我们互动时，我们能够就最初让我们聚集在一起的有趣、愚蠢的事情进行互动吗？
I think it's very challenging to do these things.
我认为做这些事情是非常有挑战性的。
When people go to couples therapy and the couples therapy is effective, it's usually because therapists are able to help couples essentially rewind all the bad patterns they've created and go back to when things were good, rediscover what it was that they really appreciated about each other, and recreate their relationship from there in a new way.
当人们接受夫妻治疗并且夫妻治疗有效时，通常是因为治疗师能够帮助夫妻从本质上倒退他们所创造的所有不良模式，回到美好的时光，重新发现他们真正欣赏彼此的地方，并以新的方式重建他们的关系。
But yes, many of these things are just deeply, deeply hard to forecast.
但是，是的，其中许多事情非常非常难以预测。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, and there's always the natural desire to want to know if one's time and energy-
是的，人们总是自然而然地想知道自己的时间和精力是否——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is well spent.
是值得的。
I mean, it's really, in some sense, the most important investment-
我的意思是，从某种意义上说，这确实是最重要的投资——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is time and energy.
是时间和精力。
I mean, and this is-
我的意思是，这是——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
It's kind of all we have.
这就是我们所拥有的一切。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's all we have, and that's very evolutionary-
这是我们所拥有的一切，而且这是非常进化的——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in its core.
在其核心。
You talked before about this kind of crystal ball question-
你之前谈到过这种水晶球问题——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or probing for particular disclosures that people are willing or not willing to make as a perhaps better indication of whether somebody is interesting or appropriate-
或探究人们愿意或不愿意披露的特定信息，以更好地表明某人是否有趣或合适-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for you.
为了你。
I realize, however, that the notion that there's a question or a set of questions-
然而，我意识到存在一个问题或一组问题的概念-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that would say, "Green light," that's not true.
这会说“绿灯”，但事实并非如此。
That just can't be true.
这不可能是真的。
There's probably some answers that are red light.
可能有一些答案是红灯。
Everyone knows red light.
大家都知道红灯。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hopefully, they're paying attention to that.
希望他们正在关注这一点。
But it's the yellow- But it's the yellow lights and not knowing what questions to ask to see if there's a sort of green light path forward.
但这是黄灯——但这是黄灯，不知道要问什么问题才能看到是否有一条绿灯前进的道路。
Tell me what those questions are.
告诉我这些问题是什么。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Okay.
好的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Phrase differently.
措辞不同。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If two people are on a date and they have only a few minutes, it's kind of a speed dating type situation-
如果两个人约会并且只有几分钟的时间，这就是快速约会类型的情况 -
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yep, yeah
是的，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and they need to make a good assessment as to whether or not they genuinely would like to spend more time with the person again-
他们需要对自己是否真的愿意再次花更多时间与这个人在一起做出良好的评估-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
what are the questions they should ask?
他们应该问哪些问题？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
All right.
好吧。
So I like the questions that are a little bit more offbeat.
所以我喜欢一些另类的问题。
What people tend to do on speed dates is they want to find common ground quickly.
人们在快速约会中倾向于做的是他们想快速找到共同点。
If it's college students, maybe they're going to talk about their major.
如果是大学生，也许他们会谈论他们的专业。
"Do we share a major?
“我们有共同专业吗？
No." Pivot.
不。”枢。
"Where are you from?" And they'll try to find something that they can bond over.
“你从哪来？”他们会尝试找到可以建立联系的东西。
And that can work very well.
这可以很好地发挥作用。
But I think the core of what we want in an initial interaction with somebody is to take away something that feels like it was at least a little different than all the other interactions that we have.
但我认为，在与某人的最初互动中，我们想要的核心是消除一些感觉与我们所有其他互动至少有一点不同的东西。
And so sometimes what that means is going a touch deeper than people are comfortable with.
所以有时这意味着比人们感到舒服的更深层次的接触。
Now, in four minutes, it's tricky.
现在，四分钟后，这很棘手。
If you have a little bit longer, like a regular evening-length date, I really like the 36 questions test.
如果你有更长一点的时间，比如常规的晚间约会，我真的很喜欢 36 个问题的测试。
Sometimes it's called the Fast Friends procedure.
有时它被称为“快速朋友”程序。
But these are questions like, what's one thing that you've never told somebody that you've always wanted to tell them, and what's stopping you?
但这些问题是这样的，有哪一件事是你从未告诉过某人但你一直想告诉他们的，是什么阻止了你？
Or-
或者-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People answer that?
人家这么回答？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I mean, if you've been hanging out with somebody for 60 to 90 minutes, that ...
我的意思是，如果你和某人一起出去玩了 60 到 90 分钟，那......
is a pretty good way to elicit real depth and give both people a chance to do some reciprocal self-disclosure, because that's what people want.
这是一个很好的方式来激发真正的深度，让双方都有机会进行一些相互的自我表露，因为这就是人们想要的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
That's what people connect over, is like, "I feel like I've just heard, maybe it's true, maybe it's not, but I feel like you've just told me something that you haven't told most people, and maybe you haven't told anybody." I vividly remember falling for somebody when that moment happened, where it's like, "You are telling me this.
这就是人们之间的联系，就像，“我觉得我刚刚听说过，也许是真的，也许不是，但我觉得你刚刚告诉了我一些你没有告诉过大多数人的事情，也许你还没有告诉过任何人。”我清楚地记得当那一刻发生时，我爱上了某人，就像是，“你告诉我这个。
I don't think you've ever told anybody this before." And it is such a rush.
我想你以前从来没有告诉过任何人这件事。”这真是太匆忙了。
I think, I don't know, man.
我想，我不知道，伙计。
The internet, it's like convinces all we care about is sex and hotness.
互联网就像让我们相信我们关心的只是性和性感。
There is nothing like the rush of having somebody tell you something that they've never told anybody else.
没有什么比让某人告诉你一些他们从未告诉过其他人的事情更令人兴奋的了。
And again, this is the stuff that gets relationships researchers excited, because this is what we see in our data.
再说一遍，这让关系研究人员感到兴奋，因为这是我们在数据中看到的。
Responsiveness, closeness, building trust, and all of that stuff.
反应灵敏、亲密、建立信任等等。
Now again, four minutes is really hard.
现在再说一遍，四分钟真的很难。
Four minutes, you just got to get a little nugget of something that you want to build off later, and maybe that is your hometown, and maybe it is like, "Isn't this a weird experience that we're only going to get to chat for four minutes?" But whenever there are routes to go for a little bit more disclosure, I usually advise that people go for it.
四分钟，你只需要得到一些你想要稍后构建的东西，也许那是你的家乡，也许就像，“我们只聊四分钟，这不是一种奇怪的经历吗？”但只要有途径可以进行更多披露，我通常会建议人们这样做。
It will pay off on average, even if it can feel kind of awkward in the moment.
平均而言，它会带来回报，即使目前感觉有点尴尬。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you think there's more excitement if one gets the sense that the other person is taking a bit of a risk in disclosing it?
你认为如果一个人感觉到对方在披露此事时冒了一点风险，会不会更令人兴奋？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not like, "I've been dying to tell somebody this-"
不像，“我一直很想告诉别人这个——”
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
"and there's never been an opportunity.
“而且从来没有机会。
Thanks for giving me the opportunity," and whatever.
谢谢你给我这个机会，”等等。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"I always wanted to come back in my second life as a guppy or something." I don't know.
“我一直想在第二次生命中以孔雀鱼什么的身份回来。”我不知道。
I'm picking a trivial example on purpose.
我故意选择一个简单的例子。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because it's not true.
因为这不是真的。
Much better tropical fish.
热带鱼好多了。
A big tropical fish enthusiast.
热带鱼大爱好者。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Much better.
好多了。
Freshwater discus, much better fish.
淡水七彩神仙，更好的鱼。
Owned by me, because it would be, have a really good life.
拥有了我，因为它会，拥有真正美好的生活。
Take really good care of my freshwater discus.
好好照顾我的淡水七彩神仙。
But in all seriousness, does that mean that people are walking around harboring, especially single people-
但严肃地说，这是否意味着人们正在四处走动，尤其是单身人士——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
are harboring parts of themselves that they're craving intimacy?
是否隐藏着自己渴望亲密的部分？
That's of the exchange things that they've never told anyone, that they wish they could tell someone, feel safe enough to tell them.
这是他们从未告诉过任何人的交换事情，他们希望可以告诉别人，感到足够安全地告诉他们。
Is that what you're talking about?
你说的是这个吗？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Creating a real moment of intimacy early on that's not physical intimacy, it's, I don't even know if it's emotional intimacy.
尽早创造一个真正的亲密时刻，这不是身体上的亲密，而是，我什至不知道这是否是情感上的亲密。
It's like-
这就像——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
It's a human connection, right?
这是人与人之间的联系，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
It's like I'm a person that's had particular experiences, and you're a person that's had particular experiences, and we have these narratives and stories about ourselves.
就好像我是一个有特殊经历的人，你也是一个有特殊经历的人，我们有这些关于我们自己的叙述和故事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Again, the science historically has been so focused on traits, and I get it.
再说一遍，科学历史上一直非常关注特征，我明白了。
And I understand the evolutionary focus on traits.
我理解进化对特征的关注。
But man, humans are stories, right?
但是人类就是故事，对吧？
We're narratives, and we want other people to be privy to that narrative, and then maybe eventually be a part of it.
我们是叙事者，我们希望其他人了解该叙事，然后也许最终成为其中的一部分。
So I think that that is often what can be very powerful.
所以我认为这往往是非常强大的。
Now, for people who are single and they want to be in a relationship, I do think that it can be that sense that they're lacking.
现在，对于那些单身并且想要建立恋爱关系的人来说，我确实认为他们可能缺乏这种感觉。
A lot of people are single and are very, very happy with their single lives.
很多人都是单身，并且对自己的单身生活非常非常满意。
And I also understand that a lot of people, if they're single and they're dating, look, there's a lot of reasons to be cautious.
我也明白很多人，如果他们是单身并且正在约会，看，有很多理由要谨慎。
Forming a relationship is a low base rate event.
建立关系是一个低基础率事件。
It doesn't happen all that often.
这种事并不经常发生。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's time costly.
而且时间成本很高。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It can be financially costly.
这可能会带来高昂的经济成本。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's energetically costly.
这在能源上是昂贵的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's very energetically costly.
这是非常耗费精力的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
We don't go around forming relationships with everybody.
我们不会到处与每个人建立关系。
But I also happen to think that once the ball gets rolling, the pull can be very strong.
但我也碰巧认为，一旦球开始滚动，拉力就会非常强大。
And part of that pull is this desire to have somebody see me, get me, understand me.
这种吸引力的一部分是希望有人看到我、了解我、理解我。
I might be talking about securely attached people on average, right?
我可能谈论的是平均而言安全型依恋的人，对吧？
There's always going to be that avoidance pull, too.
总是会有回避的拉力。
People need to self-protect to some extent.
人们需要在一定程度上进行自我保护。
But the sort of desire to open up and have somebody really get you, it's so core to the relationship science worldview, and I think it says a lot about who we are as a species, and how we form mating relationships.
但那种渴望敞开心扉、让别人真正理解你的愿望，是关系科学世界观的核心，我认为它很大程度上说明了我们作为一个物种是谁，以及我们如何形成交配关系。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You've said in so many words before, that men and women essentially want the same things.
您之前说过很多次，男人和女人本质上想要的是相同的东西。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think that's going to hit some people square in the face.
我认为这会狠狠地打一些人的脸。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
I know.
我知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they're going to say, "That is so not true.
他们会说：“这不是真的。
Men just want blank."
男人只想要空白。”
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"Women just want blank." I'm on this campaign lately to try and defang-
“女人只想要空白。”我最近参加这个活动是为了尝试去除牙-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the trolls-
巨魔-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that seem to have, it's like if we were in high school-
似乎有，就像我们在高中一样-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
let's leave junior high school.
让我们离开初中吧。
Let's go to high school.
我们去高中吧。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there were a bunch of really awful people.
还有一群非常糟糕的人。
Let's evenly distribute it between the sexes.
让我们在两性之间平均分配它。
Let's just do that for fairness' sake.
为了公平起见，我们就这么做吧。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they're constantly pointing out how these people are always bad and extractive, and these people are always cold and avoidant, and like-
他们不断地指出这些人总是坏的、榨取性的，这些人总是冷漠的、回避的，而且就像——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
And if those narratives were just constantly posted on the walls and like-
如果这些故事只是不断地张贴在墙上或类似的地方——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and talked about over lunch, and whispered in the hallways, it would be very poisonous to-
午餐时谈论，在走廊里窃窃私语，这会非常有毒——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the whole environment.
整个环境。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that's kind of what the internet is.
这就是互联网。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then the traditional news, but also some podcasts, not this podcast, but will kind of amplify these narratives because-
然后是传统新闻，还有一些播客，不是这个播客，而是会放大这些叙述，因为-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
they feel juicy, and they get clicks.
他们感觉多汁，并且获得点击。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think we all have an innate desire to avoid danger.
我认为我们都有一种与生俱来的避免危险的愿望。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So we want to know where this stuff is.
所以我们想知道这些东西在哪里。
But when you step back, you go, most people are pretty well-meaning.
但当你退后一步，你就会发现，大多数人都是善意的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Most people are looking for good partnership.
大多数人都在寻找良好的合作伙伴关系。
Nobody's perfect, but where people make mistakes, most people are looking to at least modify their behavior over time.
没有人是完美的，但是当人们犯错误时，大多数人都会希望至少随着时间的推移改变他们的行为。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Huh.
呵呵。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's all reasonably benevolent.
这一切都是相当仁慈的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But then there are these-
但接下来还有这些——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
kind of nasty characters out there, and we give them so much credit.
那里有一些令人讨厌的角色，我们给予他们很大的信任。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we give them so much power.
我们赋予他们如此多的权力。
And they just plain suck.
他们简直太糟糕了。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So men and women want the same things.
所以男人和女人想要的东西是一样的。
Let's shut them up for a second and ask what the data say.
让我们先让他们闭嘴，看看数据怎么说。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
This was one of the first things I studied when I started looking at attraction almost 20 years ago now.
这是我大约 20 年前开始研究吸引力时首先研究的事情之一。
And in part because I found the gender differences fascinating.
部分原因是我发现性别差异很有趣。
It was very clear for decades and decades that if you ask men and women about the qualities they want in a partner, that you'll see these differences show up pretty routinely.
几十年来，很明显，如果你问男人和女人他们想要的伴侣具备哪些品质，你会发现这些差异经常出现。
And they are differences that then, in the hands of nefarious characters online, get spun out into exactly the narrative that you're describing.
这些差异随后在网上邪恶人物的手中，完全变成了您所描述的叙述。
But the basic data on what men and women say they want, it's there.
但关于男性和女性的需求的基本数据就在那里。
Men will say they care about attractiveness in a partner more than women, and women will say they care about earning potential in a partner more than men.
男性会说，他们比女性更关心伴侣的吸引力，而女性会说，他们比男性更关心伴侣的收入潜力。
Now, I'm phrasing that in a particular way, and I'm saying what people say they want because I'm critiquing the experimental paradigms that were used.
现在，我以一种特定的方式来表达这一点，我说的是人们所说的他们想要的，因为我正在批评所使用的实验范式。
It usually had people rating a bunch of traits on scales.
人们通常会在量表上对一系列特征进行评分。
And as a psychologist, I have no problem with that.
作为一名心理学家，我对此没有任何问题。
I'm very interested in people's subjective experiences, and I use scales all the time.
我对人们的主观体验非常感兴趣，并且我一直使用尺度。
But we wondered, that's different, or it might be different, than what happens when you're meeting people face-to-face and you're reacting to a set of people who might be very attractive or of middling attractiveness or not very attractive at all.
但我们想知道，这与你面对面会见人们时所发生的情况不同，或者可能不同，你对一群可能非常有吸引力或中等吸引力或根本没有吸引力的人做出反应。
And that, to me, seems closer to capturing what people actually want.
对我来说，这似乎更接近于捕捉人们真正想要的东西。
If you meet 10 women, how much does their attractiveness drive your desire to date them?
如果您遇到 10 位女性，她们的吸引力在多大程度上激发了您与她们约会的欲望？
How much does attractiveness affect whether you want a second date with them or not?
吸引力对你是否想与他们第二次约会有多大影响？
So we ran speed dating studies to try to capture exactly this phenomenon.
因此，我们进行了快速约会研究，试图准确捕捉这一现象。
I'll make it about earning prospects because it's really the same thing.
我将讨论收入前景，因为这实际上是同一件事。
So we have these men, and they go speed dating, and some of these women are very ambitious.
所以我们有这些男人，他们去快速约会，其中一些女人非常雄心勃勃。
They're going to be lawyers and doctors.
他们将成为律师和医生。
Others are a little bit less ambitious.
其他人则没有那么雄心勃勃。
And what you'd see is that the men tended to like the women a little bit more to the extent that they were ambitious.
你会发现，男人更喜欢那些有野心的女人。
It wasn't a huge driver of their liking, but it was definitely there, and it was definitely positive.
这并不是他们喜欢的巨大推动力，但它确实存在，而且绝对是积极的。
But then when we flipped it and we looked at what the women were drawn to, not what they said, but what they were drawn to, they also tended to like the ambitious men a little bit.
但当我们翻转过来，看看女性被什么吸引，不是她们所说的，而是她们被什么吸引时，她们也倾向于有点喜欢雄心勃勃的男性。
And the magnitude of that preference was identical.
而且这种偏好的程度是相同的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
And it's been 20 years of this, where we've looked at ongoing relationships.
20 年来，我们一直在审视持续的关系。
We've looked at 40-something countries throughout the world.
我们研究了全球 40 多个国家。
That narrative plays out every time.
这种叙述每次都会上演。
There's no gender differences in the extent to which these traits appeal to men and women when they're evaluating real people they've actually met.
当男性和女性在评估他们实际遇到的真实的人时，这些特征对他们的吸引力程度不存在性别差异。
Online is different.
在线则不同。
What people say they want is different.
人们所说的他们想要的东西是不同的。
But real people that you've at least met face-to-face seems to dramatically reduce the power of the gender differences and the appeal of these traits.
但至少面对面见过的真实的人似乎会大大降低性别差异的力量和这些特征的吸引力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fascinating, and runs countercurrent to, I think-
令人着迷，并且与我认为相反-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
what many people, including I, have heard-
包括我在内的很多人都听过——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
out there.
在那里。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
But I think the key lesson here is believe your subjective experience when you're interacting with somebody and you're getting to know them.
但我认为这里的关键教训是相信当你与某人互动并且逐渐了解他们时你的主观体验。
And maybe that subjective experience is like, "She's hot, but I am not feeling this." And maybe that subjective experience is like, "I know that maybe to some people, he looks like he doesn't have his life together, but I really see a spark there." If you trust that experience, I think that's likely to go better.
也许那种主观体验就像是，“她很性感，但我没有这种感觉。”也许那种主观体验就像是，“我知道也许对某些人来说，他看起来没有在一起生活，但我确实看到了其中的火花。”如果您相信这种体验，我认为情况可能会更好。
And we don't have an experience to go on like that when it's online.
当它在线时，我们没有这样的体验。
When it's online, it's very easy to put people in boxes, put people in groups, and then make the groups fight each other.
当它在线时，很容易将人们放在盒子里，将人们分组，然后让小组互相争斗。
And I too am very distressed about all the heteropessimism.
我也对所有的异悲观主义感到非常苦恼。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Heteropessimism.
异质悲观主义。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Right.
正确的。
It's not my term, but it's one of my favorite terms.
这不是我的术语，但却是我最喜欢的术语之一。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you know who coined it?
你知道是谁创造的吗？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
I know the year.
我知道年份。
It's like 2019, but I forget the author.
好像是2019年的，但是忘了作者了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Cool.
酷。
We'll look it up.
我们会查一下。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah, look it up.
是的，查一下。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great term.
伟大的术语。
Heteropessimism.
异质悲观主义。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Right?
对吗？
It's like men and women can't get along.
就好像男人和女人无法相处一样。
How could they get along?
他们怎么能相处呢？
They've got different interests and different priorities.
他们有不同的兴趣和不同的优先事项。
Look, in the close relationships realm, it's not true, and that's the realm I know.
看，在亲密关系领域，这不是真的，而这就是我所知道的领域。
Men and women, they want the same things out of their relationships.
男人和女人，他们希望从恋爱关系中得到同样的东西。
Yes, there are gender differences in the thresholds for sex, and especially early on, that can be really messy.
是的，性的阈值存在性别差异，尤其是在早期，这可能真的很混乱。
But overall, I see a lot of similarity and a lot of potential for the bonds that men and women form to do great things for people, and women and women and men and men and any gendered combination that you want to come up with.
但总体而言，我看到男性和女性形成的纽带有很多相似之处和很大的潜力，可以为人们做伟大的事情，女性和女性，男性和男性以及任何你想要的性别组合。
I think we're pair bonding creatures.
我认为我们是成对的生物。
We get a lot of joy and a lot of fulfillment out of that, and I want to see men and women find a way to make it work again.
我们从中得到了很多快乐和很多成就感，我希望看到男人和女人找到一种方法让它再次发挥作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Springboarding off of the heteropessimism-
异悲观主义的跳板——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
term, which is great because it encapsulates so much-
这个术语很棒，因为它包含了很多东西——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
even though what it encapsulates is definitely not great.
尽管它封装的内容绝对不是很好。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The term I'm about to use is going to sound like it means something it doesn't, but is there any research on homopessimism, which is not the same as homophobia.
我将要使用的这个术语听起来似乎意味着一些事实并非如此，但是有没有关于同性恋悲观主义的研究，这与恐同症不同。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Homopessimism, meaning I'm not aware, because I happen to be heterosexual, but I have homosexual friends, men and women.
同性恋悲观主义，意思是我不知道，因为我碰巧是异性恋，但我有同性恋朋友，男人和女人。
I'm not hearing them talk a lot about-
我没有听到他们谈论太多——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
how dating culture is much worse now.
现在的约会文化多么糟糕。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
I hear this too, yeah.
我也听到这个，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But then again, sample size isn't that great here.
但话又说回来，这里的样本量并不是那么大。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I don't know.
所以我不知道。
Because a lot of the same things apply in terms of apps.
因为很多相同的事情也适用于应用程序。
Sure, cultures vary.
当然，文化各有不同。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But there are some constants in this picture.
但这张图中有一些常数。
So in any research, yours or others', research about homosexual dating and couples-
因此，在任何关于同性恋约会和情侣的研究中，无论是你的还是其他人的——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is there pessimism?
有悲观情绪吗？
Guys saying, "Well, guys these days," and women saying-
男人们说，“好吧，现在的男人们”，女人们则说——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
lesbian women, let's just-
女同性恋者，让我们——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for lack of a better term, saying Women these days
由于缺乏更好的术语，现在说“女性”
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
I don't think that's out there nearly to the same extent.
我认为这种情况还没有达到同样的程度。
I think some of the interesting components that you see out there is, look, the apps, I think they did a lot of good in the world for people who just felt like their social networks had no options in them.
我认为你看到的一些有趣的组件是应用程序，我认为它们为那些感觉自己的社交网络没有选择的人们做了很多好事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yep.
是的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
But especially for people who might've been living in places that were genuinely unsafe for gays and lesbians, and might've helped them to find romantic partners.
但特别是对于那些可能生活在对同性恋来说真正不安全的地方的人来说，并且可能会帮助他们找到浪漫的伴侣。
So I always want to be the first one to give the apps credit for that, for providing those kinds of opportunities.
因此，我总是想成为第一个对应用程序给予认可的人，因为它们提供了此类机会。
Classically speaking, what you tend to see is that, I've talked a little bit about the timeframe as people form relationships in the first place, and that sometimes we get locked into this idea that it's like, oh, it's going to happen in an instant, and now you're together.
从经典角度来说，你往往会看到的是，我已经谈过一些关于人们首先建立关系的时间框架，有时我们会陷入这样的想法，就像，哦，它会在一瞬间发生，现在你们在一起了。
But the reality is it's often an elongated process.
但现实是这往往是一个漫长的过程。
That process has tended historically to be even longer for folks who are gays and lesbians forming same-gender relationships.
从历史上看，对于形成同性关系的男女同性恋者来说，这个过程往往更长。
And I think part of that is something that you might even call a bigotry tax, because if you lived in a place where it was vaguely dangerous to admit your same-sex attractions, you've got to be really careful before you start disclosing how you feel about somebody, because rejection doesn't just mean rejection.
我认为其中一部分你甚至可以称之为偏执税，因为如果你住在一个承认你的同性吸引力有点危险的地方，你在开始透露你对某人的感觉之前必须非常小心，因为拒绝并不只是意味着拒绝。
Rejection maybe actually carries other threats and stigma and all of these other things with it.
拒绝实际上可能会带来其他威胁和耻辱以及所有其他事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Loss of jobs.
失业。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We've seen examples that, again, it plays on stereotypes, but I'm going to assume some of it is true.
我们已经看到过一些例子，它再次发挥了刻板印象，但我会假设其中一些是正确的。
Like in "Mad Men," right?
就像《广告狂人》里那样吧？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's a disclosure-
有一个爆料——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and then it doesn't go well.
然后事情就不顺利了。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Right.
对。
Right.
正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
It doesn't go well.
进展不太顺利。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
I love the movie "Call Me By Your Name."
我喜欢电影《请以你的名字呼唤我》。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't think I've seen it.
我想我没见过。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It's about 10 years old.
大约10岁了。
It's Luca Guadagnino, and he's a fabulous director.
这是卢卡·瓜达尼诺，他是一位出色的导演。
But it's about two men who get together over the course of a summer, young men.
但这是关于两个年轻人在一个夏天聚在一起的故事。
It's one of Timothée Chalamet's earlier movies.
这是蒂莫西·柴勒梅德的早期电影之一。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
And one of the things they come to regret is that, well, we didn't disclose our feelings sooner.
他们后悔的一件事是，我们没有早点表达我们的感受。
But the movie was taking place in the 1980s, so you had to be really careful with whether you were going to be upfront about how you were feeling about somebody.
但这部电影的故事发生在 20 世纪 80 年代，所以你必须非常小心是否要坦率地表达你对某人的感受。
In a place where you can't be fully confident that you have a sense of safety, it could be really dangerous.
在一个你不能完全确信自己有安全感的地方，那可能真的很危险。
So that's an important difference that we see, and I think the apps were really good at helping people to come together in that sense.
所以这是我们看到的一个重要区别，我认为这些应用程序非常擅长帮助人们从这个意义上走到一起。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have a question about-
我有一个问题关于-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
financial stability-
金融稳定——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Okay
好的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and level.
和水平。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You mentioned there aren't real big gender differences there.
你提到那里没有真正大的性别差异。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Earlier, we were saying scientists are always doing the opposite of improv.
早些时候，我们说过科学家总是做与即兴创作相反的事情。
Instead of "Yes, and," they always say-
他们总是说——而不是“是的，并且”
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
"Yeah, but."
“是啊，但是。”
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"Yeah, but what about?"
“是啊，但是那又怎样呢？”
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah, "But what about?"
是的，“但是呢？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's in our training.
这是我们训练中的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Income level on its own, or amount of money that somebody has, in my mind, is somewhat informative.
在我看来，收入水平本身，或者某人拥有的金钱数量，在一定程度上具有一定的信息性。
What's more informative is having the additional data point of where they started out.
更丰富的信息是拥有他们起始位置的附加数据点。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Oh, interesting.
哦，有趣。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because people with money who-
因为有钱的人——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
didn't have to work very hard to get it-
并不需要付出很大的努力才能得到它-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's a different picture.
这是一幅不同的图画。
Now, some people might say, "Who cares?" And I will make the argument that some people-
现在，有些人可能会说：“谁在乎呢？”我会提出这样的论点：有些人——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
It's a cool idea
这是一个很酷的主意
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
some people who had to work very hard to make their money oftentimes are still in the working hard mode.
一些必须经常努力工作才能赚钱的人仍然处于努力工作模式。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The twist in the high level of income thing like that-
高收入水平的扭曲是这样的——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the additional question that's useful is how much free time do you have?
另一个有用的问题是你有多少空闲时间？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because a lot of the people I know who have a lot of money, they don't have a lot of free time.
因为我认识的很多人都有很多钱，但他们没有很多空闲时间。
So if people pair up with them thinking that they're going to feel very financially secure and have a lot of stuff, that might be true.
因此，如果人们与他们结对时认为他们会感到经济上非常安全并且拥有很多东西，那么这可能是真的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But how often they're going to see their partner or the co-parent of their kids is an-
但他们多久才能见到自己的伴侣或孩子的共同父母是一个——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
important question.
重要的问题。
And this extends both ways.
这也是双向的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
So many of these attributes that in the abstract sound really good to us, but then when you actually put it in a person that also has all these other attributes and things going on, you realize, wait a minute, their cutthroat ambition actually wasn't that great, right?
这些属性中有很多，抽象地听起来对我们来说确实很好，但是当你真正把它放在一个也拥有所有这些其他属性和正在发生的事情的人身上时，你会意识到，等一下，他们的残酷野心实际上并没有那么伟大，对吧？
Because it means that they're never around.
因为这意味着他们永远不会在身边。
I think for this reason, it can be very challenging, especially if you're looking at long-term relationships, to take things like a person's income level and use that to forecast, for example, how their partner is going to feel about them.
我认为出于这个原因，尤其是当你着眼于长期关系时，利用一个人的收入水平等因素来预测他们的伴侣对他们的感觉如何，这可能是非常具有挑战性的。
We've done some of this work, indeed, some of the work looking at gender differences, and the reality is a person's objective income, it has very, very small effects on how their partners feel about them.
我们已经做了一些这样的工作，事实上，一些研究性别差异的工作，现实是一个人的客观收入，它对他们的伴侣对他们的感觉的影响非常非常小。
The bigger effects are things like, if now we scaffold up and look at socioeconomic status.
更大的影响是，如果我们现在搭建起来，看看社会经济地位。
So do you have the resources to get by as a couple?
那么你们有资源维持夫妻生活吗？
That can be very challenging for people.
这对人们来说非常具有挑战性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've seen numerous examples of couples where the man loses his work, and if he's not able to get stable work again-
我见过很多这样的例子：男方失业了，如果他无法再次找到稳定的工作——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
reasonably soon-
相当快-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
this isn't a peer-reviewed study.
这不是一项经过同行评审的研究。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Most of the examples I can think of, the couple eventually dissolved.
我能想到的大多数例子，夫妻俩最终还是解散了。
And it wasn't necessarily for a lack of enough resources.
这并不一定是因为缺乏足够的资源。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Families were able to help, et cetera.
家人能够提供帮助等等。
And of course, we could talk about depression.
当然，我们可以谈论抑郁症。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We could talk about some other thing that might have happened or many things that happened, but is there a sex difference there?
我们可以谈论其他可能发生的事情或许多已经发生的事情，但是那里有性别差异吗？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
The part that I find the most intuitive about these examples is that when a man loses his job like that, and I love that there are other resources around, so we know that that's not the exact problem.
我发现这些例子中最直观的部分是，当一个人像这样失业时，我喜欢周围还有其他资源，所以我们知道这不是确切的问题。
My guess is that the challenges are coming more from his genuine troubling loss of identity, loss of self, what am I going to do with myself, and less, maybe not zero, but less about his partner thinking Now he's no longer a provider.
我的猜测是，挑战更多来自于他真正令人不安的身份丧失、自我丧失、我该怎么办自己，而更少，也许不是零，而是来自他的伴侣的想法，现在他不再是一个提供者。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
And that's just generally my bias from what I see in the science, which is when tragedies befall us, they affect our perceptions especially strongly.
从我在科学中看到的来看，这通常是我的偏见，即当悲剧降临到我们身上时，它们会特别强烈地影响我们的看法。
So this guy is going to feel this pretty hard that he's lost his job.
所以这个人会因为失去工作而感到非常难过。
Stepping back and looking at the broader picture of the data, it used to be true that marriages were more fragile when the woman earned more than the man in the marriage.
退后一步，看看更广泛的数据，过去确实，当婚姻中女性收入高于男性时，婚姻会更加脆弱。
But this stopped being true in the '90s.
但到了 20 世纪 90 年代，这种情况就不再成立了。
So that gender difference doesn't exist anymore.
这样，性别差异就不再存在了。
And I think it's easy to surmise, I don't know if the sociologists who've studied this have drawn exactly this conclusion, but it's easy to posit that what's happening there is that people in general have gotten more comfortable with the gender imbalance relationships.
我认为很容易推测，我不知道研究这个问题的社会学家是否已经得出了这个结论，但很容易假设那里发生的事情是人们普遍对性别失衡的关系感到更加舒服。
And in the '90s, we were still getting used to this idea.
在 90 年代，我们仍然习惯了这个想法。
Today, even if the average couple, the man earns more than the woman, you do see that because there is a gender difference in income levels on average, but in education it's flipped now, right?
今天，即使在普通夫妇中，男性的收入高于女性，你也确实看到了这一点，因为平均收入水平存在性别差异，但在教育方面，现在情况发生了逆转，对吧？
Women, at least in younger couples, the woman is more likely to be educated than the man.
女性，至少在年轻夫妇中，女性比男性更有可能受过教育。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
More educated or educated period?
受过教育的时期还是受过教育的时期？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
More educated than the man in the relationship, right?
比恋爱中的男人受过更多教育，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
So women are earning more of the higher degrees, so if there's a mismatch, probably the woman has more education than the guy.
因此，女性获得的更高学位更多，因此，如果存在不匹配，则女性可能比男性受过更多教育。
That's not a risk factor relative to if they were the same level, relative to if he were higher.
相对于他们是否处于同一水平，相对于他是否更高，这并不是一个风险因素。
It just doesn't really seem to be doing anything.
它似乎并没有真正做任何事情。
I know we can get really nervous about what does it mean for men's desirability if they're not ambitious.
我知道，如果男人没有雄心壮志，那么这对他们的吸引力意味着什么，我们可能会感到非常紧张。
I get that.
我明白了。
If men are not out there making things of themselves, I'm not worried about the women getting a better education than them.
如果男人不在那里创造自己的东西，我并不担心女人会比他们接受更好的教育。
I think it's important for men to have a sense of purpose.
我认为对于男人来说，有目标感很重要。
I think trade schools can be awesome, but the mismatches in the level of education and in the level of income, those don't spell a problem.
我认为贸易学校可能很棒，但教育水平和收入水平的不匹配，这些并不是问题。
We just got to get men feeling good about themselves again.
我们要做的就是让男人再次自我感觉良好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the data say they're not.
数据表明事实并非如此。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah, I think that's what you see.
是的，我想这就是你所看到的。
The data that concern me the most are that men, and I think especially low SES men, they're the ones that feel like their social networks are gone.
我最关心的数据是，男性，尤其是社会经济地位低的男性，他们感觉自己的社交网络消失了。
They don't know where to go to get any kind of companionship.
他们不知道到哪里去获得任何形式的陪伴。
So if they're really feeling that acute sense of loneliness, of lack of belonging among real people in their lives, that's the thing I worry about because then that's going to affect your sense of self.
因此，如果他们真的感到强烈的孤独感，在生活中缺乏与现实中的人的归属感，那就是我担心的事情，因为这会影响你的自我意识。
That's going to affect all of your ambitions and, in really bad cases, might push people to some of those nastier corners of the internet.
这将影响你所有的野心，在非常糟糕的情况下，可能会将人们推向互联网上一些更肮脏的角落。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Function.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 Function。
Function provides over 160 advanced lab tests to give you a clear snapshot of your bodily health.
功能提供超过 160 项高级实验室测试，让您清晰了解自己的身体健康状况。
This snapshot gives you insights into your heart health, your hormone health, autoimmune function, nutrient levels, and much more.
通过此快照，您可以深入了解心脏健康状况、激素健康状况、自身免疫功能、营养水平等。
They've also recently added access to advanced MRI and CT scans.
他们最近还增加了先进的 MRI 和 CT 扫描的访问权限。
Function not only provides testing of over 160 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, it also analyzes these results and provides recommendations for improving your health from top doctors.
Function 不仅提供对您身心健康至关重要的 160 多种生物标记物的测试，还分析这些结果并提供顶级医生改善您健康的建议。
For example, in a recent test with Function, I learned that some of my blood lipids were slightly out of range.
例如，在最近的一次 Function 测试中，我发现我的一些血脂稍微超出了范围。
As a result, I decided to start supplementing with nattokinase, which can naturally help reduce LDL cholesterol, and it did.
因此，我决定开始补充纳豆激酶，它自然可以帮助降低低密度脂蛋白胆固醇，而且确实如此。
In a follow-up test, I could confirm that this strategy worked.
在后续测试中，我可以确认这个策略是有效的。
My blood lipids are now back exactly where I want them.
我的血脂现在完全回到了我想要的水平。
Comprehensive lab testing of the sort that Function offers is just so important for health.
Function 提供的全面实验室测试对于健康非常重要。
How else are you going to know what's going on under the hood?
否则你怎么知道幕后发生了什么？
And while I've been doing blood work for years, it used to be time-consuming, complicated, and expensive.
虽然我从事血液检查已有多年，但它过去非常耗时、复杂且昂贵。
In fact, I used to spend thousands of dollars per year trying to get this kind of data, and the data, frankly, were not all that good.
事实上，我曾经每年花费数千美元试图获得此类数据，但坦率地说，这些数据并不那么好。
But now with Function, it's extremely easy and affordable.
但现在有了 Function，它变得非常简单且经济实惠。
A Function membership is only a dollar a day, $365 a year.
Function 会员每天仅需 1 美元，每年 365 美元。
And if you think about the information it provides, and the health challenges it helps you avoid, and the proactive things that it can do for you to enhance your health, I truly look at it as a savings.
如果您考虑一下它提供的信息，它可以帮助您避免的健康挑战，以及它可以为您增强健康所做的积极主动的事情，我确实将其视为一种节省。
To learn more, visit functionhealth.com/huberman and use the code HUBERMAN for a $50 credit towards your membership.
要了解更多信息，请访问 functionhealth.com/huberman 并使用代码 HUBERMAN 获得 50 美元的会员积分。
Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman.
同样，这是 functionhealth.com/huberman。
In the classics, pure stereotypical narrative, men who were slightly older had more resources.
在经典、纯粹的刻板叙事中，年龄稍大的男性拥有更多的资源。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This isn't always true.
这并不总是正确的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But there's this what apparently, based on your work, is a myth that women desire older men, men desire younger women.
但根据你的工作，这显然是一个神话，即女性渴望年长的男性，男性渴望年轻的女性。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Your work points to the possibility that there is no gender differences in attraction to younger partners.
你的研究表明，对年轻伴侣的吸引力可能不存在性别差异。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And look, let me say that this is, I think one of the more tenet-
听着，让我说，我认为这是更重要的原则之一-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's a big-
这是一个大——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and it's a big sample size, 4,500.
而且样本量很大，有 4,500 个。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
4,500.
4,500。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm like, wait.
我想，等等。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
It's a lot.
很多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'll weave a quick anecdote.
我会编一个简短的轶事。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's this guy at the gym that I sometimes go to.
我有时会去健身房，有一个人。
He's probably in his 70s or something, and he's in great shape.
他大概有70多岁了，而且身体状况很好。
He's retired.
他已经退休了。
He made money.
他赚钱了。
He's enjoying life.
他很享受生活。
He's got-
他有——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
grandkids.
孙子们。
He just seems like, I don't know him that well, but it seems like he's really got it together-
他只是看起来，我不太了解他，但看起来他真的很了解——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and he's really loving life.
他真的很热爱生活。
And I always say, "What brings you here every day?" I figured he'd be like, "Oh, I just feel so good." And he just-
我总是说：“是什么让你每天来这里？”我想他会说，“哦，我感觉很好。”而他只是——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
always says the same thing.
总是说同样的话。
He always just says, "I don't want to lose my wife to a younger guy." And I always laugh and I go, "Then-"
他总是说：“我不想让我的妻子被一个更年轻的男人夺走。”我总是笑着说，“然后——”
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
This is smart, man.
这很聪明，伙计。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know a lot about the contour of his life, and maybe there's something he's not disclosing, but anyone would say, "This guy's just totally got it made." Again, I don't know the details of his life, and I shouldn't, but I know enough about it that he's checked off all the boxes three or four times-
我对他的生活轮廓了解很多，也许有些事情他没有透露，但任何人都会说，“这家伙完全成功了。”再说一次，我不知道他生活的细节，我也不应该知道，但我对此了解得足够多，他已经勾选了所有的方框三四次——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and then had the wisdom, in my opinion, to not just keep working like a maniac-
在我看来，然后有智慧，不要像疯子一样继续工作——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and just spend time with his kids and grandkids-
和他的孩子和孙子们共度时光-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Preach it
宣扬它
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and his wife.
和他的妻子。
But he always answers the exact same way.
但他总是以完全相同的方式回答。
"How's it going?" He goes, "Pretty good.
“怎么样了？”他说：“很好。
Just don't want to lose my wife to a younger guy, so I'm here again today."
只是不想让我的妻子被一个更年轻的男人夺走，所以我今天又来了。”
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Let me tell you about this study.
让我向您介绍一下这项研究。
And look, again, I'm a scientist, and sometimes the data, I'm like, "Huh?" You don't say.
再说一次，我是一名科学家，有时我会想，“嗯？”你不说。
I didn't see this one coming.
我没有看到这个人来。
I mentioned this earlier.
我之前提到过这一点。
So we partnered up with folks who do matchmaking.
因此我们与做媒人的人合作。
So these are people who are paying for a service because they want to be in a long-term relationship.
这些人为服务付费是因为他们希望建立长期关系。
And so they will set people on dates, and they've got a whole pool that they're working with.
因此，他们会为人们安排约会，并且他们有一整套正在合作的人才。
And within that pool, the men who are searching for dates are older than the women by about four years on average.
在这个群体中，寻找约会对象的男性平均比女性大四岁。
Okay?
好的？
So that's what they've got to work with.
这就是他们必须合作的。
And they set people up on these dates, and so most of the time, the woman is going to be younger than the man, but there's a range.
他们安排人们约会，所以大多数时候，女人会比男人年轻，但有一个范围。
Sometimes the woman is much younger than the guy, and sometimes the woman is the same age as the guy, and sometimes the woman's even a little older than the guy.
有时女人比男人年轻很多，有时女人和男人同龄，有时女人甚至比男人大一点。
All right?
好的？
So what you'd expect to see is that if men are looking for younger women and women are looking for older men, then when we look at how the age of the partner affects whether you want to go on a second date with this person, it should be the younger folks appeal to the men more, and the older folks appeal to the women more.
所以你会期望看到的是，如果男人正在寻找年轻的女人，而女人正在寻找年长的男人，那么当我们看看伴侣的年龄如何影响你是否想与这个人进行第二次约会时，应该是年轻人对男人更有吸引力，而年长的人对女人更有吸引力。
But that wasn't what we saw.
但我们看到的并非如此。
We saw that the younger folks appeal to the men more.
我们发现年轻人对男性更有吸引力。
And by the way, it's not a huge effect.
顺便说一句，这并不是一个巨大的影响。
It's not like the gross stereotype that's out there.
这不像外面的刻板印象。
Men are a little bit more interested in the women to the extent that they're younger, but it's not gigantic.
男性对年轻女性的兴趣会更大一些，但这并不是很大。
Women are doing the same thing.
女性也在做同样的事情。
They're a little bit more interested in the younger guys.
他们对年轻人更感兴趣。
They don't say that on paper.
他们没有在纸上这么说。
In fact, sometimes they're like, "Don't set me up with the younger guys." And then they do, and they say, "Huh, that was interesting.
事实上，有时他们会说，“别让我和年轻人在一起。”然后他们就这么做了，他们说：“哈，这很有趣。
I enjoyed that date.
我很享受那个约会。
I would like to see him again."
我想再次见到他。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are the stated reasons similar in any way?
上述理由是否相似？
For instance, are both groups saying less baggage?
例如，两个群体都说行李少了吗？
That would be-
那将是——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
kind of a cliche answer.
有点陈词滥调的答案。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
No. I-
不，我-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But we could place that on either side.
但我们可以把它放在两边。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I don't know, and I would love to know.
我不知道，我很想知道。
I think sometimes when women downrate whether they care about attractiveness or something, I think sometimes they are kidding themselves a little bit, that they actually do appreciate a younger guy who's maybe is fit and in shape, or they don't fully appreciate how exciting it would feel to be sitting across the table from a guy like that.
我认为，有时，当女性贬低她们是否关心吸引力或其他什么时，我认为有时她们是在自欺欺人，她们实际上确实欣赏一个可能健康且身材好的年轻人，或者她们没有完全体会到与这样的男人坐在桌子对面的感觉是多么令人兴奋。
This is my best guess.
这是我最好的猜测。
And what's so fascinating about this dataset is that, look, they're trying to create these couples, but you only create a couple a fraction of the time.
这个数据集的迷人之处在于，看，他们试图创建这些对，但你只在一小部分时间内创建了一对。
Much of the time, the people don't really hit it off.
很多时候，人们并没有真正合得来。
But in the couples that get created, the guy was four years older than the woman, and in the couples that don't get created, the guy is four years older than the woman, because that was what they had in the sample to begin with.
但在被创造的夫妇中，男人比女人大四岁，而在没有被创造的夫妇中，男人比女人大四岁，因为这就是他们在样本中一开始的情况。
So we look around, and you see that age difference.
所以我们环顾四周，你会发现年龄差异。
That age difference is real, and I am sure it means something important.
年龄差异是真实存在的，我相信这意味着一些重要的事情。
And data like this just make me think something else is going on here.
像这样的数据让我觉得这里还发生了其他事情。
Whatever is creating this age difference, it's not age difference in how people sort.
无论是什么造成了这种年龄差异，都不是人们分类方式上的年龄差异。
It's not happening on date one.
这不会发生在第一天。
It's not happening at the initial attraction phase.
这不会发生在最初的吸引阶段。
Maybe it's happening earlier.
也许它发生得更早。
Who puts themselves in the pool?
谁把自己放进池子里？
Maybe it's happening later.
也许以后会发生。
I don't know.
我不知道。
She's going to date this younger guy once or twice, but then she's going to be done with him, and she'll settle down with somebody who's a little older.
她会和这个年轻的男人约会一两次，但之后她就会和他分手，然后她会和一个年纪大一点的人安定下来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting you said she's done with him.
有趣的是你说她和他已经结束了。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah, right.
是的，对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
Right, but it could go the other way, too.
是的，但也可能有相反的情况。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, what I've heard before, because I'm 50, I have some female friends who are dating, and they'll say that they do date younger guys, but then the deal breaker is if the guy says he wants kids.
嗯，我以前听说过，因为我已经 50 岁了，我有一些正在约会的女性朋友，她们会说她们确实在和年轻的男人约会，但如果这个男人说他想要孩子，那就破坏了交易。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Kids.
孩子们。
That's tough.
这很难。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So the agreement is to move on based on that.
因此，协议将在此基础上继续推进。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Often.
经常。
This is a reasonably common thing.
这是相当普遍的事情。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I actually hear about this more and more these days.
事实上，这些天我越来越多地听到这个消息。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And I think one thing that online dating affords is if you've got something like that that's exceptionally important to you, there are opportunities to filter on it.
我认为在线约会提供的一件事是，如果您有类似的东西对您来说特别重要，那么就有机会对其进行过滤。
We haven't talked about this too much yet, but you can get into a whole line of research and studies on, oh, if people are filtering for things in the abstract, does that match what's ultimately going to appeal to them when they meet face to face?
我们还没有过多讨论这个问题，但是你可以进行一整套研究，哦，如果人们在抽象中过滤事物，这是否符合他们面对面见面时最终会吸引他们的东西？
We find that generally speaking, these things tend to be pretty uncorrelated, so what people think they want doesn't match up with what they actually end up liking once they meet somebody face to face.
我们发现，一般来说，这些事情往往是相当不相关的，所以人们认为自己想要的东西与他们面对面见到某人后实际喜欢的东西并不相符。
But you can argue that sometimes that's not a good thing.
但你可能会说，有时这并不是一件好事。
If somebody really wants kids, shouldn't it be within their power to craft a pool of partners who also want kids to give them that opportunity?
如果有人真的想要孩子，难道他们不应该有能力打造一群也希望孩子给他们机会的合作伙伴吗？
That seems like a reasonable, humanistic thing to do, and so to the extent that the apps are able to do that or the services are able to do that, I think that's ultimately a good thing.
这似乎是一件合理的、人性化的事情，因此，只要应用程序能够做到这一点或服务能够做到这一点，我认为这最终是一件好事。
I think we-
我想我们——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Don't they click-
难道他们不点击-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
like want kids or not?
喜欢不想要孩子？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I think often.
我经常想。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
I think you can.
我想你可以。
In some apps, that might be a special feature you have to pay for.
在某些应用程序中，这可能是您必须付费的特殊功能。
These things get complicated.
这些事情变得复杂。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Who knows if the news is accurate, because it's not real data.
谁知道这个消息是否准确，因为它不是真实的数据。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's whatever the news decides to shine a light on.
这就是新闻决定揭露的一切。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This idea that more young people are going to church, which is a values, plural-
更多年轻人去教堂的想法，这是一种价值观，多元的——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
indicator.
指标。
Most churches are open to whoever shows up.
大多数教堂对任何出现的人开放。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But the assumption is that people are there for certain reasons that they're either trying to build on or have certain values-
但假设人们出于某些原因而存在，他们要么试图建立这些原因，要么拥有某些价值观——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that are family, children, values, morals-
那是家庭、孩子、价值观、道德——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
adjacent-
相邻-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
if not central.
如果不是中心的话。
Right?
正确的？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think people know what I'm saying.
我想人们知道我在说什么。
Sure, bad people can show up at church.
当然，坏人可能会出现在教堂里。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But the idea is that somebody's taken the time to get dressed up on a Sunday morning and go and listen to someone else speak.
但我们的想法是，有人在周日早上花时间穿好衣服，去听别人讲话。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And a lot of people are meeting that way now.
现在很多人都是这样聚会的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are there any data that that's a response to the Wild West of online dating and social media and just the general culture of everybody?
是否有任何数据表明这是对在线约会和社交媒体的狂野西部以及每个人的普遍文化的回应？
It's the culture of everybody.
这是每个人的文化。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Even in high school-
甚至在高中时——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
there were subgroups.
还有一些小组。
Some people moved between subgroups.
有些人在不同的小组之间流动。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
I see what you mean.
我明白你的意思了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it The vastness of the internet and social media-
但互联网和社交媒体的浩瀚——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
even if you state your preferences about what you do and don't want to see on social media, it's a flood.
即使你在社交媒体上表达了你对自己所做的事情和不想看到的事情的偏好，这也会造成洪水般的后果。
I see people and-
我看到人们并且——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
things on there from way back when that, they're not bad people.
从很久以前开始，他们就不是坏人。
I have no interest in what they're doing now.
我对他们现在在做什么不感兴趣。
And then occasionally I see people where I'm like, "Oh, no way."
然后偶尔我会看到有人说：“哦，不可能。”
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And reconnect.
并重新连接。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it's a fire hose.
但这是消防水带。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah, and you need some way to reduce it to something manageable.
是的，你需要某种方法将其减少到易于管理的程度。
Again, we evolved in an environment where we knew 50 other people.
我们再次在一个认识 50 个人的环境中发展。
That's your group.
那是你的小组。
You probably knew more than that, maybe 150, some nearby groups, but that's all ages and all genders and everything else.
你可能知道的不止这些，也许有 150 个，附近的一些群体，但那是所有年龄、所有性别和其他一切。
It's a small number of potential partners for you.
这对您来说是少数潜在的合作伙伴。
But you had reasons to interact, structures that were going to put you in contact with each other.
但你们有互动的理由，有让你们彼此接触的结构。
And to the extent that church is fulfilling a function like that, I think that's great, and in fact, I think that's exactly what's missing.
就教会履行这样的功能而言，我认为这很好，事实上，我认为这正是所缺少的。
And if church isn't your thing, there's a million other things that people can do in any kind of modern urban context that are going to be helpful along those lines.
如果你不喜欢去教堂，那么在任何现代城市环境中，人们都可以做一百万件其他的事情，这些事情都会对你有所帮助。
You can join any kind of intramural sports team.
您可以加入任何类型的校内运动队。
I mean-
我的意思是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Improv class.
即兴课。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just came up on it, yeah.
刚想起来，是的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So I think the improv classes are amazing because not only is it a chance to interact in a group over a period of time where you don't get to opt out if you don't love somebody right away, but also you're practicing being vulnerable and being responsive and things like that.
所以我认为即兴课程很棒，因为它不仅是一个在一段时间内在团体中互动的机会，如果你不立即爱某人，你就无法选择退出，而且你还可以练习表现出脆弱和做出反应等等。
So I think these things are all wonderful.
所以我觉得这些事情都很棒。
Are people doing it because they're trying to limit the pools to the folks that they think will fit what they're looking for?
人们这样做是因为他们试图将池限制在他们认为适合他们所寻找的人的范围内吗？
I'll bet you some people are doing that.
我敢打赌有些人正在这样做。
I'll bet that if somebody's like, "I really want to be with somebody else who's active, so I'm going to join a running club," or, yeah, "I want to be with somebody who shares my values, so I'm going to join church." I think that's great.
我敢打赌，如果有人说，“我真的想和其他活跃的人在一起，所以我要加入跑步俱乐部”，或者，是的，“我想和和我有共同价值观的人在一起，所以我要加入教会。”我认为那太好了。
If I'm being buzzkill scientist, I'd probably sit here and be like, "It probably actually doesn't matter." Join the church, join the running club, join all these things.
如果我是一个平庸的科学家，我可能会坐在这里说：“这实际上可能并不重要。”加入教堂，加入跑步俱乐部，加入所有这些事情。
You're probably no more or less likely to find somebody that you're going to click with.
你可能不太可能找到与你合得来的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's more about getting yourself in a small group environment.
更多的是让自己处于一个小团体环境中。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
But I'll be the first to say, when it comes to the base rates of these things, if your goal was, "In 90 days, I want to be in a relationship.
但当谈到这些事情的基本费率时，如果你的目标是“在 90 天内，我想建立一段关系，我会第一个说。
What are the things I should do that give me the best likelihood?" I'm embarrassed to say my field can't answer that question.
我应该做哪些事情才最有可能？”我很尴尬地说我的领域无法回答这个问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
I can't tell you, "Use two apps and use these two apps and go to church.
我不能告诉你，“使用两个应用程序，然后使用这两个应用程序去教堂。
Don't join kickball because they're a mess." I was a kickball player, so I'm allowed to say that.
不要加入踢球运动，因为它们很乱。”我是一名踢球运动员，所以我可以这么说。
"But you should join the running club." We can't answer questions like that.
“但你应该加入跑步俱乐部。”我们无法回答这样的问题。
So in the absence of that kind of specificity, my answer is always just be around people on repeated occasions.
因此，在没有这种特殊性的情况下，我的答案总是只是反复出现在人们身边。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm not trying to provide pushback here.
我并不是想在这里提出反对意见。
I'm not qualified to do it-
我没有资格这么做——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Okay
好的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because I'm going to-
因为我要-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
No, I love it
不，我喜欢它
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
come from a totally different field.
来自完全不同的领域。
But I feel like there's certain smallish group environments-
但我觉得有一些小团体环境——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
like church, but there could be other examples.
就像教堂一样，但可能还有其他例子。
Like for instance, like a hiking club-
比如说，像一个徒步俱乐部——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or rock climbing-
或攀岩——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or something like that, where there's kind of a, this shouldn't be the reason people do it-
或者类似的事情，如果有的话，这不应该是人们这样做的原因-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the only reason people do it, but let's say people pair up-
人们这样做的唯一原因，但假设人们结对——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as a consequence of time there.
由于在那里的时间。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That the culture of that thing provides additional opportunities to grow the relationship with peers.
那件事的文化提供了额外的机会来发展与同行的关系。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because there's certain things, like you join an improv class-
因为有些事情，比如你参加即兴表演班——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Exactly
正是如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
great.
太棒了。
My sister-
我的妹妹-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is really into drama and theater, still does-
真的很喜欢戏剧和戏剧，仍然是-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
theater classes for her own enrichment.
为了丰富自己的戏剧课。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But if you meet someone there, it's not like the culture around it sort of cultivates the evolution of the relationship.
但如果你在那里遇到某人，周围的文化并不会促进关系的发展。
Whereas in church, you might even get married in that church.
而在教堂里，你甚至可能在那个教堂里结婚。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In the context of a-
在a-的背景下
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Thousand
千
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
hiking club, you might be out with the other couples that you meet or-
徒步俱乐部，你可能会和你遇到的其他情侣一起出去，或者-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
single people that you meet for many years.
您遇到多年的单身人士。
It's a community that-
这是一个社区——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
can grow over time.
可以随着时间的推移而增长。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Certain things, here I'm showing my ignorance around improv classes.
某些事情，在这里我展示了我对即兴课程的无知。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But certain things like a pottery class or pickleball or something, it doesn't just at face value present a sort of trajectory of like-
但某些事情，比如陶艺课或泡菜球之类的，它不仅仅从表面上看呈现出一种类似的轨迹——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
That's right
没错
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I'm sounding-
我听起来——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
really nerdy here, but kind of like a set of maturational stages that you can continue to be in the relationship-
这里真的很书呆子，但有点像一系列成熟阶段，你可以继续处于这种关系中-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
there.
那里。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Does that make sense?
这有道理吗？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yep, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really stumbling for the words here.
这里的词真的很绊脚。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
No, I totally get it.
不，我完全明白。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This, by the way, is a great reason to not meet people at work.
顺便说一句，这是在工作中不与人见面的一个重要原因。
I'm not trying to throw a cold blanket on people-
我并不是想给人们泼冷水——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
who decide to meet people at work, but oftentimes-
他们决定在工作中与人见面，但常常——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
It's a challenge
这是一个挑战
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
oftentimes the relationship doesn't necessarily flourish in the context of the work environment.
通常，这种关系不一定在工作环境中蓬勃发展。
It's not like the work environment makes the relationship grow.
工作环境并不能让关系发展。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've seen more things split over time if both people work there.
如果两个人都在那里工作，随着时间的推移，我会看到更多的事情分裂。
Oftentimes, they have to move to separate buildings.
通常，他们必须搬到不同的建筑物。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just for a variety of reasons.
只是因为种种原因。
But it's not like the culture encourages it.
但这并不像文化鼓励这样做。
Whereas there's certain-
然而有一定的——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
things that are a bit more, since you were talking for a moment there like an evolutionary biologist-
事情有点多了，因为你像一位进化生物学家那样说了一会儿——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
we evolved in small villages-
我们在小村庄里进化——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and small groups where you had peers and elders that provide this positive reinforcement-
以及有同伴和长辈提供这种积极强化的小团体-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
on relationship.
关系上。
It's kind of an interesting thing, no matter how evolved we are or progressive-
这是一件有趣的事情，无论我们多么进化或进步-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
we are, I don't know many women that ask men to marry them in 2026.
我不知道有多少女性会在 2026 年向男性求婚。
I'm sure they're out there, but it's still the-
我确信他们就在那里，但它仍然是-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Interesting
有趣
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
tacit assumption-
默契的假设——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that men are going to do the asking.
男人会提出要求。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just saying.
只是说。
Okay, so how progressive are we really, right?
好吧，那么我们到底有多进步，对吧？
It's also true that when people get married, most of the time, they stand up in front of other people-
也确实，人结婚的时候，很多时候都是站在别人面前的——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and state their vows.
并宣誓。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is not like-
这不像——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
under the bedsheets, "I promise."
床单下，“我保证。”
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is like a public disclosure.
这就像公开披露。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
These days, it ends up on Instagram.
如今，它最终出现在 Instagram 上。
So there's clearly a feedback that comes from being part of a larger structure-
因此，很明显，作为更大结构的一部分会产生反馈——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that reinforces relationships over time.
随着时间的推移，关系会得到加强。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah, and it can be a big help.
是的，这会有很大的帮助。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You promised.
你答应了。
You didn't just promise to me.
你不只是向我承诺的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You promised the whole world.
你答应了全世界。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
And that can be an important source of support, too, because then it's that At least the subjective sense, like these people have our backs, right?
这也可以成为重要的支持来源，因为至少主观感觉上，就像这些人支持我们一样，对吗？
If we run into hard times, there's a community that's going to be there and support us.
如果我们遇到困难，会有一个社区出现并支持我们。
And then I think you're right.
然后我认为你是对的。
On the initial attraction side, having a sense that we're part of this larger collective, that there's something about that that feels good and provides structure that can help keep moving things forward.
在最初的吸引力方面，我们感觉自己是这个更大集体的一部分，感觉良好，并提供了有助于推动事情向前发展的结构。
And you're right that the workplace context is particularly tricky because many workplaces don't want to encourage that kind of thing.
你说得对，工作场所的环境特别棘手，因为许多工作场所不想鼓励这种事情。
And it's going to often happen anyway, and probably the smartest workplaces are the ones that allow for the possibility that peers are going to get together and have structures in place that will be able to keep the personal life appropriately personal and then deal with the fallout if the fallout happens.
无论如何，这种情况经常会发生，而且最聪明的工作场所可能是那些允许同事聚在一起并建立适当结构的工作场所，这些结构能够使个人生活保持适当的私密性，然后在发生后果时处理后果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One place I trained, might have been UC Davis, all the junior faculty, of which there were many of them-
我训练的一个地方，可能是加州大学戴维斯分校，所有的初级教师，其中有很多——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
when I first joined, there were a large fraction of couples-
当我第一次加入时，有很大一部分是情侣——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the department-
在该部门-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or who had spouses in other departments.
或在其他部门有配偶的人。
I think more than 80% of those couples ended up divorced.
我认为超过80%的夫妻最终离婚了。
Now-
现在——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Oh, wow.
哦，哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now, there are a lot of-
现在，有很多——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
variables there.
那里有变量。
Fortunately, most of them are on good terms.
幸运的是，他们中的大多数人关系都很好。
I can't say they ended up with other people in the department.
我不能说他们最终和部门里的其他人在一起了。
That didn't happen.
那没有发生。
But I watched and was like, "Whoa." Like, "This is interesting."
但我看了之后就想，“哇。”就像，“这很有趣。”
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This, I don't want to say didn't end well because I think they're all happy now.
我不想说结局不好，因为我认为他们现在都很幸福。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But there does seem to be some additional stress of that.
但这似乎确实带来了一些额外的压力。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, this gets to a question you've actually studied, which is this notion of similarity.
因此，这涉及到您实际研究过的一个问题，即相似性的概念。
So maybe we should talk more about that because it's a more data-driven question, which is perceived similarity-
所以也许我们应该更多地讨论这个问题，因为这是一个更多数据驱动的问题，即感知相似性——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
matters more than actual similarity.
比实际的相似性更重要。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What is perceived similarity?
什么是感知相似性？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
So perceived similarity is this general sense like, eh, we have a lot in common.
所以感知到的相似性是一种普遍的感觉，比如，呃，我们有很多共同点。
There are a million things that we could talk about.
我们可以谈论一百万件事。
We share the same values and attitudes and preferences about things in general.
总的来说，我们对事物有着相同的价值观、态度和偏好。
But notice the way I'm describing it.
但请注意我描述它的方式。
I'm not tethering it to any particular attitude or value or preference or anything else.
我不会将其与任何特定的态度、价值观、偏好或其他任何东西联系起来。
Because it's so free-floating, I, as the perceiver, get to attach it to whatever I want.
因为它是如此自由浮动，所以作为感知者，我可以将它附加到我想要的任何东西上。
And that affords people to have a certain amount of motivated reasoning so that when they like somebody a lot, they will find the similarities there.
这让人们有一定的动机推理，这样当他们非常喜欢某人时，他们就会发现那里的相似之处。
They will really come to think that what really matters is that we love Japanese cinema and that we share the same politics.
他们真的会认为真正重要的是我们热爱日本电影并且我们有着相同的政治观点。
Whereas for another couple, you know what?
而对于另一对夫妇，你知道吗？
We have different politics, but that doesn't really matter to us.
我们有不同的政治观点，但这对我们来说并不重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Does anyone say that nowadays?
现在还有人这么说吗？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
No, people still do.
不，人们仍然这样做。
Look, what you see in the political matching data is that the odds that people of diametrically opposed preferences, the odds they're going to get together in the first place are very, very low.
你看，你在政治匹配数据中看到的是，偏好截然相反的人们聚集在一起的可能性非常非常低。
But among the mismatches that do exist, it actually doesn't predict satisfaction all that much, and I think this is why.
但在确实存在的不匹配中，它实际上并不能预测满意度，我认为这就是原因。
Because you just compartmentalize it.
因为你只是把它区分开来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
If we match, it's important.
如果我们匹配的话，这很重要。
If we don't match, oh, who cares?
如果我们不匹配，哦，谁在乎呢？
Does anybody care about that, right?
有人关心这个吗？
So much motivated reasoning.
如此多的动机推理。
So this is why if what I wanted to do was take two people who had never met and assess everything I could about them and then figure out whether they were going to be a match or not, based on whether they were similar, I really was probably going to be no better than a coin flip at figuring out whether or not they were going to click.
所以这就是为什么如果我想做的是让两个从未见过面的人评估我对他们的一切，然后根据他们是否相似来判断他们是否会匹配，那么我真的可能不会比抛硬币更好地判断他们是否会点击。
That's actual similarity.
这才是真正的相似之处。
I take things that are true about you without the ability for you to engage in motivated reasoning, and I say, "Okay, you're an 83% match on all the things I could assess.
我接受关于你的真实情况，但你没有能力进行动机推理，然后我说，“好吧，你在我可以评估的所有事情上都符合 83%。
You two should like each other." When we've done studies like that, you basically get a coin flip every time.
你们两个应该互相喜欢。”当我们完成这样的研究时，基本上每次都会发生抛硬币的情况。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, this is why the apps seem totally useless.
好吧，这就是为什么这些应用程序看起来毫无用处。
Because if you were to just pair up, well, you want this and you want this, and I want that too, and I want that too, you're telling me that it's as good as chance.
因为如果你们只是配对，那么，你想要这个，你想要这个，我也想要那个，我也想要那个，你告诉我这就像机会一样好。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
It's as good as chance.
这就像机会一样好。
And look, if there's evidence for similarity on anything, it could be in the realm of demographics, socioeconomic status kinds of things.
瞧，如果有证据表明任何事情有相似之处，那可能是在人口统计、社会经济地位等领域。
I've seen unpublished data, but promising.
我看过未发表的数据，但很有希望。
But even then, those effects are so small.
但即便如此，这些影响仍然很小。
So we're going from a 50/50 coin flip to like 53/47.
所以我们将从 50/50 的硬币翻转变成 53/47。
These are small effects across the board because we get all of this motivational latitude.
这些都是整体上的小影响，因为我们拥有所有这些激励自由度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
When we really like somebody, we find the things we have in common, we focus on those, we convince ourselves those are the most important things in the world.
当我们真正喜欢某人时，我们会发现我们的共同点，我们专注于这些，我们说服自己这些是世界上最重要的事情。
And the thing is, who am I to criticize them because the people in the happiest relationships, that's what they're doing.
问题是，我有什么资格批评他们，因为那些处于最幸福关系中的人，就是他们所做的。
They're exhibiting those kinds of biases, and it's like stupid human tricks, but it kind of works.
他们表现出这种偏见，这就像愚蠢的人类把戏，但它确实有效。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You want to hear something really scary?
你想听一些真正可怕的事情吗？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You probably know this already, but I was shocked.
你可能已经知道了，但我很震惊。
Let's just say someone I know who would know told me that the biggest dating app in the world, by an enormous margin is-
这么说吧，我认识的一个人告诉我，世界上最大的约会应用程序是——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
It's not Tinder?
这不是火种吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Instagram.
Instagram。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And this was actually very much in parallel-
这实际上是非常并行的——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Huh
呵呵
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to the algorithm favoring communication by direct message.
有利于通过直接消息进行通信的算法。
People will say social media isn't social anymore.
人们会说社交媒体不再社交了。
It's not about seeing what people are doing.
这不是要看看人们在做什么。
The real dynamics, the real time spent, and you'll notice how you get rewarded and what gets served up in the algorithm.
真实的动态、实际花费的时间，你会注意到你如何获得奖励以及算法中提供了什么。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Reward meaning like what posts do better than others.
奖励的意思是哪些帖子比其他帖子做得更好。
If there's a strong correlate to communication about that through direct message.
如果通过直接消息进行沟通有很强的相关性。
It's a dating app that's kind of cloaked-
这是一个约会应用程序，有点隐蔽-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for many people as a social media app, but of course, I use it to teach neuroscience, right?
对于很多人来说，它是一个社交媒体应用程序，但当然，我用它来教授神经科学，对吗？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah, right.
是的，对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And other things, and this will be on Instagram.
还有其他事情，这将在 Instagram 上进行。
So I'm a big fan of Instagram and other social media platforms for teaching and learning, and I say that sincerely, but the majority of the Time spent now is not scrolling, it's getting to communications-
所以我是 Instagram 和其他用于教学和学习的社交媒体平台的忠实粉丝，我真诚地说，但现在花费的大部分时间不是滚动，而是进行交流 -
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that move to real world.
移动到现实世界。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then feedback-
然后反馈——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to social media.
到社交媒体。
So I found that interesting.
所以我觉得这很有趣。
So I'm imagining a question.
所以我在想象一个问题。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because you study questions people ask them on dates, and we used to be able to say, "If you were on a deserted island, who would you want to be there with?"
因为你研究人们在约会时问的问题，我们过去可以说，“如果你在一个荒岛上，你想和谁在一起？”
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like, who's the one person that you could stand being with or perhaps even really enjoy being with?
比如，谁是你可以忍受或什至真正喜欢和谁在一起的人？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Assuming you have all the resources.
假设你拥有所有资源。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now, I think the question should be, who's the one person that would get you to not engage with anyone else in the world?
现在，我认为问题应该是，谁是那个能让你不与世界上其他人交往的人？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In other words, set down what you called, and I've never heard this before-
换句话说，记下你所说的，我以前从未听说过——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the derivation of alternatives.
替代方案的推导。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is an interesting term.
这是一个有趣的术语。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So in some ways, like-
所以在某些方面，比如——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
committed partnership is about setting aside the idea that there might be somebody better for us.
忠诚的伙伴关系就是抛开“可能有人更适合我们”的想法。
And I would argue, again-
我会再次争论——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I've strong positive feelings towards Instagram.
我对 Instagram 有强烈的积极感觉。
I really do.
我真的这么做。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a fun and great platform when used in moderation.
适度使用时，这是一个有趣且很棒的平台。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it's the opposite of the deserted island.
但这里却与荒岛相反。
And a former guest on this podcast, who happens to be a divorce lawyer, James Sexton, has talked about the fact that many of the divorces that he litigates?
这个播客的前嘉宾詹姆斯·塞克斯顿（James Sexton）恰好是一名离婚律师，他谈到了这样一个事实：他提起诉讼的许多离婚案？
No.
不。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That he's involved in.
是他参与其中的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Resolves.
解决了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, that he helps resolve, win for his clients-
是的，他帮助解决问题，为他的客户赢得胜利-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
started with a innocuous communication on Instagram.
从 Instagram 上的一次无伤大雅的交流开始。
Starts with a like.
从喜欢开始。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Starts with a like, starts with a conversation.
从点赞开始，从对话开始。
Ends up-
结局是——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the corner of a grievance or a commonality-
在委屈或共同点的角落里——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that's sensed, and then the derivation of alternatives emerges-
被感知到，然后替代方案的推导就出现了——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and eventually the relationship dissolves.
最终这种关系消失了。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
We think about how people handle alternative partners.
我们考虑人们如何处理替代性伴侣。
If you're in a purportedly monogamous relationship, this is a challenge that relationships are going to face, and I sort of see these twin streams happening at the same time.
如果你处于所谓的一夫一妻制关系中，这就是关系将面临的挑战，我认为这两种趋势同时发生。
So what you see in general is that for people who are in relationships, and especially if they are happy in that relationship, any alternative partner that you can throw at them, they will tend to think that that alternative partner is pretty weak sauce.
所以你所看到的一般情况是，对于处于恋爱关系中的人来说，特别是如果他们在这段关系中感到快乐，你可以向他们扔任何替代伙伴，他们往往会认为那个替代伙伴是相当弱的酱汁。
They think that person is less desirable than any other metric you might want to come up with for how desirable that person actually is.
他们认为这个人不如你想出的任何其他指标来衡量这个人的实际吸引力。
That's what we mean by derogation of alternatives.
这就是我们所说的替代方案的减损。
It's like they're coming in up here, but, hmm, because I'm partnered with you and I'm happy with you, I see them as less desirable than they actually are.
就好像他们来到这里，但是，嗯，因为我与你合作并且我对你很满意，所以我认为他们不如实际情况那么令人向往。
Side note, that's one of the reasons why the marketplace metaphor starts to break down, because people actually start to become bad barometers of what is, quote-unquote, good.
旁注，这就是市场隐喻开始失效的原因之一，因为人们实际上开始成为坏的晴雨表，无论引用还是引用，都是好的。
You stop seeing this alternative's actual value because you're so happy with the person that you have.
你不再看到这个替代方案的实际价值，因为你对你所拥有的人非常满意。
Okay, so this is a good thing, and this is a real defense mechanism that people have.
好吧，这是一件好事，这是人们拥有的真正的防御机制。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is it a defense mechanism?
是一种防御机制吗？
But it's protective of healthy, monogamous relationships.
但它可以保护健康、一夫一妻制的关系。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
But I mean it in the best-- Yeah.
但我的意思是最好的——是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
You know what?
你知道吗？
That's so funny because in our jargon, we say defense mechanism, I mean that in the best possible way.
这很有趣，因为用我们的行话来说，我们说防御机制，我的意思是以最好的方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Protective mechanism.
保护机制。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah, protective mechanism.
是的，保护机制。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Protective mechanism.
保护机制。
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Right.
对。
Yeah, you're defending the relationship.
是的，你正在捍卫这段关系。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
That's so funny.
太有趣了。
I'd forgotten that-
我忘记了——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We've had a few too many psychologists on here.
我们这里的心理学家太多了。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Right, of course.
对，当然。
That has a negative connotation for some people.
这对某些人来说有负面含义。
Not for me.
不适合我。
Okay, so it's a protective mechanism, but at the same time, people also do this thing that you might call like playing with fire, but it's more like playing with what really seems to be a harmless book of matches, and I'm just messaging these people.
好吧，这是一种保护机制，但与此同时，人们也会做这种事情，你可能会称之为玩火，但这更像是玩看似无害的火柴盒，而我只是给这些人发消息。
"Well, what's the big deal?
“嗯，有什么大不了的？
This isn't going to go anywhere.
这不会有任何结果。
We're chatting a little bit.
我们正在闲聊。
This isn't going to go anywhere." And things escalate.
这不会有任何结果。”事态不断升级。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sorry to interrupt, but-
抱歉打扰，但是——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and one of our former guests on this podcast, who's immensely popular in the dating, relationships, and romance sphere, is Esther Perel.
埃丝特·佩雷尔 (Esther Perel) 是我们这个播客的前任嘉宾之一，她在约会、人际关系和浪漫领域非常受欢迎。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I don't want to put words in her mouth, but I think the perception about some of her messaging, whether accurate or not, is that there can be some value to, in her first book, I think, and I haven't read it, but the excerpt that was relayed to me was this notion like, oh, someone isn't feeling as much chemistry in their relationship, so the woman, this wouldn't happen nowadays most likely-
我不想把话放在她嘴里，但我认为对她的一些信息的看法，无论准确与否，我想，在她的第一本书中，可能有一些价值，我还没有读过它，但转达给我的摘录是这样的概念，哦，有人在他们的关系中感觉不到那么多化学反应，所以女人，现在这种情况很可能不会发生——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but goes to a bar and flirts a bit and then like-
但去酒吧调情了一下然后就像-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
some sense of sexual confidence is restored-
恢复了一些性自信感——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and then her husband is then attracted to her differently again.
然后她的丈夫又对她产生了不同的吸引力。
And I've heard the more crude phrase, "Doesn't matter where you get your appetite as long as you eat at home." This is more of the 1950s, '60s variety.
我还听过更粗俗的说法：“只要在家里吃饭，无论你在哪里找到胃口。”这更多的是 20 世纪 50 年代、60 年代的风格。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
By the way, none of these statements come from me, although my mouth is saying them.
顺便说一句，这些话都不是我说的，尽管是我亲口说的。
These are things that you hear out there, right?
这些都是你在外面听到的，对吧？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Directly in opposition to what you're saying, which is not to say that what you're saying is wrong, I just think that there was about a 20 or 30-year period there-
与你所说的直接相反，这并不是说你所说的是错误的，我只是认为那里有大约20或30年的时期-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
where people kind of assumed that monogamy could thrive-
人们认为一夫一妻制可以蓬勃发展-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
despite the inputs, and monogamy could thrive perhaps even better if people acknowledge this aspect of self that is still attracted to other people.
尽管有这些投入，如果人们承认自我的这一方面仍然被其他人所吸引，那么一夫一妻制可能会更加繁荣。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They talk about it.
他们谈论它。
What you're talking about is really more of a protective cloak around the commitment.
你所说的实际上更多的是围绕承诺的保护斗篷。
I do sense people are veering back toward that, what you're describing.
我确实感觉到人们正在转向你所描述的那样。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
You know how I think about it is, it's the protective cloak, that that's sort of there as a baseline, but then signals will get through sometimes.
你知道我是怎么想的，这是防护斗篷，它是一种基线，但有时信号会通过。
Sometimes because you're messing around on Instagram but sometimes because you went to the bar with your friends, and there was this cute guy who was chatting you up.
有时是因为你在 Instagram 上闲逛，有时是因为你和朋友一起去酒吧，有一个可爱的家伙在和你聊天。
And the evidence there, too, I interpret, I think the way Esther would interpret it, and what you see in the data, also suggests something like a protective mechanism.
我也解释了那里的证据，我认为以斯帖解释它的方式，以及你在数据中看到的，也暗示了类似保护机制的东西。
Again, it's playing with fire, but if you look in studies where they ask people, "Have a sexual fantasy about your partner Now, how much sexual desire do you feel for your partner?
再说一次，这是在玩火，但如果你看一下研究，他们会问人们：“对你的伴侣有性幻想现在，你对你的伴侣有多少性欲？
It has gone up.
它已经上涨了。
Great.
太棒了。
That's pretty straightforward.
这非常简单。
Now, please have a sexual fantasy about, I don't know, whoever's in second place that's not your partner.
现在，请对，我不知道，除了你的伴侣之外的第二位的人有一个性幻想。
Then you start having sexual feelings for that person, and you start having sexual feelings for your partner at the same time.
然后你开始对那个人产生性感觉，同时你也开始对你的伴侣产生性感觉。
So it's exactly the metaphor that you're describing, that when we feel a sense of attraction, it can rebound onto our partner.
这正是你所描述的隐喻，当我们感受到吸引力时，它会反弹到我们的伴侣身上。
And by the way, it doesn't happen in the reverse.
顺便说一下，相反的情况不会发生。
Okay?
好吧？
So the partner, your current partner, again, for most people in happy relationships, holds a special position, you might say, where even when there is a little bit of a threat, and I've noticed somebody, it rebounds somewhat.
因此，对于大多数处于幸福关系中的人来说，伴侣，你现在的伴侣，占据着一个特殊的位置，你可能会说，即使有一点威胁，而且我注意到有人，它也会有所反弹。
I don't advise that people go out and do this.
我不建议人们出去这样做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are you saying it rebounds, like it's a fuel for the relationship-
你是说它会反弹，就像它是关系的燃料一样-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the way that Esther and other-
以斯帖和其他人的方式——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
people have talked about?
人们谈论过吗？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a real thing.
这是真实的事情。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Yep.
是的。
It's recent studies.
这是最近的研究。
I can point to one or two.
我可以指出一两个。
They're all within the last few years.
它们都是最近几年的事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is going to be very uncomfortable for some people to hear-
这对有些人来说会很不舒服——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that their partner may come home-
他们的伴侣可能会回家-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
immensely attracted to them because they had some sort of interaction-
被他们极大地吸引，因为他们有某种互动——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
during the day of either-
白天——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
being attracted to someone or receiving-
被某人吸引或接受-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
signals of attractiveness.
吸引力的信号。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Right.
对。
Where I am 1000% with Esther is that the danger, the problem, is not that your partner was sexually attracted to somebody else.
我 1000% 同意 Esther 的观点是，危险、问题不在于你的伴侣被其他人性吸引。
The problem is usually in the escalation.
问题通常在于升级。
It's, yeah, but now are they like repeatedly hanging out with them and having conversations that they feel secretive about?
是的，是的，但现在他们是否喜欢反复与他们闲逛并进行他们感到秘密的对话？
Or if it's you, that you feel secretive about.
或者如果是你，你感到很神秘。
Those are the warning signs because then what will start to happen is that the protective layer that people typically put around their partners, it will start to erode, and that's when people are at a greater risk of infidelity.
这些都是警告信号，因为那时人们通常为伴侣设置的保护层将开始受到侵蚀，而那时人们面临不忠的风险更大。
It's usually a process like that.
通常是这样一个过程。
The simple fact that we can be attracted to other people, that is not a problem for the average relationship.
一个简单的事实是，我们会被其他人所吸引，这对于一般关系来说不是问题。
It's the repeated follow-through on that attraction that becomes a problem.
正是对这种吸引力的重复跟进才成为一个问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that's something that evolved in recent years, that there used to be far more transient interactions-
这是近年来发展起来的，过去有更多短暂的互动——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that would never resurface again.
那永远不会再出现。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You sit next to someone on a plane, you'd have a conversation.
在飞机上，你坐在某人旁边，你们会进行交谈。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There might be attraction, there might not be, but you develop some degree of-
可能有吸引力，也可能没有，但你会发展出某种程度的——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
intimacy.
亲密。
Some people would disclose a lot on planes.
有些人会在飞机上透露很多信息。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then you never hear or talk to them again.
然后你就再也听不到他们的声音或和他们说话了。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Nowadays, there's almost always an opportunity-
如今，几乎总是有机会——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Opportunity, yeah
机会，是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for people to follow up and connect with people.
让人们跟进并与人们联系。
That's what James Sexton is referring to-
这就是詹姆斯·塞克斯顿所指的——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
when he talks about social media being a, borrowing the other person's language here, an-
当他谈到社交媒体是，在这里借用别人的语言时，
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
attack vector-
攻击向量-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
on a relationship.
在一段关系上。
And maybe that is a good reason for people who are in committed relationships to just get off of-
也许这对于那些处于忠诚关系中的人们来说是一个摆脱的好理由——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
social media, period, but it's also a context where people, quote-unquote, "spend time" with people for other reasons.
社交媒体，就是这样，但它也是人们出于其他原因与他人“花时间”的环境。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It's tricky.
这很棘手。
I don't recommend using that sort of process to bolster your relationship.
我不建议使用这种过程来加强你们的关系。
I guess if you're going to do it, try to do it by watching somebody, yeah.
我想如果你打算这样做，试着通过观察某人来做到这一点，是的。
Figure out if you're a man who's with a woman, just ask her, what actor does she have the hots for, and be kind enough to watch a movie featuring him.
弄清楚你是否是一个正在和女人在一起的男人，只要问她，她喜欢哪个演员，然后好心地看一部由他主演的电影。
Maybe that's a way to make this work for you.
也许这是一种让这项工作适合你的方法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What about in the reverse?
反过来呢？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Or the reverse.
或者相反。
Yeah.
是的。
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some of what appear to be the strongest and happiest couples that I know, I know very little about their dynamics, period.
我认识的一些看似最坚强、最幸福的夫妻，我对他们的动态知之甚少。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is kind of an interesting thing in its own right.
这本身就是一件有趣的事情。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But some of the people that are in that set-
但那个群体中的一些人——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
seem to have a pretty relaxed rapport around, "Oh, yeah, so and so," referring to their spouse, "really likes that actor or actress."
似乎有一种相当轻松的融洽关系，“哦，是的，某某”，指的是他们的配偶，“真的很喜欢那个演员。”
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's like-
这就像——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's just kind of a thing that they understand.
这只是他们理解的事情。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it's over there.
但它就在那儿。
Right?
对吗？
It's at a distance.
是在很远的地方。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
It feels safe.
感觉很安全。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
It's not a looming threat.
这不是迫在眉睫的威胁。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
It's very different if it's about somebody that you both know and spend time with.
如果是关于你们都认识并且共度时光的人，情况就非常不同了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
It's much more threatening in those cases.
在这些情况下，它更具威胁性。
And I think that also is part of why that derogation process happens, is because that threat feels very uncomfortable.
我认为这也是克减过程发生的部分原因，因为这种威胁让人感觉非常不舒服。
Even if it's your attraction, you kind of want to downplay it because the thought of, "What would it mean if I'm with the wrong person?" Or "What would happen if this thing spiraled out of control?" It's upsetting for most people.
即使这是你的吸引力，你也会想淡化它，因为你会想，“如果我和错误的人在一起意味着什么？”或者“如果事情失控会发生什么？”这对大多数人来说都是令人不安的。
We take all this time to build a relationship up to be this thing that we really value, that's a central part of our lives.
我们花费所有时间来建立一种我们真正重视的关系，这是我们生活的核心部分。
The thought that it could disappear at a moment's notice because of a mistake that we would make, it can be threatening to most people, even if we're imagining ourselves engaging in the actions that would bring things to an end.
想到它可能会因为我们犯下的错误而立即消失，这对大多数人来说都是一种威胁，即使我们想象自己正在采取行动来结束事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I heard a really scary story that may or may not be informative.
我听到了一个非常可怕的故事，它可能提供信息，也可能没有信息。
I think it is, and maybe you can help-
我想是的，也许你可以帮忙-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Okay
好的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
me understand it.
我明白了。
Anytime someone starts a story with, "I have a friend"-
任何时候有人以“我有一个朋友”开始一个故事-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it gets a little weird.
有点奇怪。
But based on an observation I had a long time ago where I was going to a gym, and I had a truly just platonic friendship with this woman.
但根据我很久以前去健身房时的观察，我和这个女人有着真正柏拉图式的友谊。
She would go to the gym, too.
她也会去健身房。
Back then, not a lot of women worked out in gyms, if I'm honest.
老实说，当时没有多少女性去健身房锻炼。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was like not a lot of women lifted weights.
好像没有多少女性举重。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was something that was kind of reserved for guys or for female bodybuilders.
这是为男性或女性健美运动员保留的东西。
But she wasn't a bodybuilder, but she liked lifting weights.
但她不是健美运动员，但她喜欢举重。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And super fit.
而且超级合身。
She's a super accomplished athlete now.
她现在是一位非常有成就的运动员。
She, one day, when we were leaving, she was really upset.
她，有一天，当我们离开时，她非常难过。
I was like, "What's up?" And she's like, "All these guys kept coming up to me." And I'm like, "Well, that's happening all the time."
我当时想，“怎么了？”她说，“所有这些人都不断地来找我。”我想，“嗯，这种事一直在发生。”
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And she's like, "No, they were all really unattractive." And I said, "Okay, well, you're good at dealing with..." She was very skilled.
她说：“不，它们真的没有吸引力。”我说：“好吧，你很擅长处理……”她非常熟练。
She's very beautiful, then and now, and so very skilled at saying, "Thanks, but no thanks."
无论过去还是现在，她都很漂亮，而且很擅长说“谢谢，但不用了。”
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then she said something that was absolutely shocking to me, that I've shared with other female friends and some men-
然后她说了一些让我绝对震惊的话，我已经和其他女性朋友和一些男人分享过——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and they always go, "No way." And she said I feel like I have to go flirt with a really attractive guy now.
他们总是说：“不可能。”她说我觉得我现在必须去和一个非常有魅力的男人调情。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Whoa.
哇哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it was clear that despite being incredibly attractive, incredibly accomplished, and super athlete, was questioning her own value.
很明显，尽管她非常有吸引力，非常有成就，并且是超级运动员，但她正在质疑自己的价值。
This is very evo-
这是非常进化的
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Ah.
啊。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
evolutionary biology, because the guys that were approaching her were-
进化生物学，因为接近她的人是——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in her mind, very, quote unquote, "low value, unattractive."
在她看来，非常“价值低，没有吸引力”。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It got to her.
她得到了。
Of course, my interpretation was, okay, guys, the next time a really attractive woman walks up to you and seems like-
当然，我的解释是，好吧，伙计们，下次当一个非常有魅力的女人走到你面前时，看起来就像——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
she's chatting you up, you don't know that it's actually about you.
她在跟你聊天，你不知道这实际上是关于你的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You know?
你知道吗？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just know that it may not be about you.
只需知道这可能与您无关。
Note to self.
自我注意。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And what's wild is that years later, I observed and talked to someone in a basically same dynamic.
令人疯狂的是，几年后，我以基本相同的动态观察并与某人交谈。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But she's married, and she said, yeah, if a bunch of people hit, people always hit on this-
但她已经结婚了，她说，是的，如果一群人在一起，人们总是会碰上这个——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
this other woman, too.
另一个女人也是如此。
She's like, "If they do that, I sort of feel like I have to go kind of get a clear perception again of whether or not I could be with an attractive guy." And now-
她说，“如果他们这样做，我觉得我必须再次清楚地认识到我是否可以和一个有魅力的男人在一起。”而现在——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
granted, she's married-
当然，她已经结婚了——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Oh, yeah
哦，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to a super successful-
一个超级成功的人——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
what anyone, male or female, would describe as super good-looking guy.
任何人，无论男性还是女性，都会形容为超级帅哥。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they have a super stable family.
而且他们还有一个超级稳定的家庭。
And I thought to myself, "Oh my God." And I don't know that this is unique to women-
我心想：“天哪。”我不知道这是女性独有的——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I don't know.
我不知道。
But it's kind of weird if you think about it.
但仔细想想，这有点奇怪。
Now, it could be their unique insecurity, but it's like if data start coming in, let's flip it.
现在，这可能是他们独特的不安全感，但这就像如果数据开始进入，让我们翻转它。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If a lot of really attractive people of the opposite sex-
如果有很多真正有魅力的异性——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
start talking to you, whoever's listening to this-
开始和你说话，无论谁在听这个-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you perhaps start to wonder if something important-
你也许开始想知道是否有什么重要的事情——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is going on there.
正在那里发生。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's information there.
那里有信息。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I just would like you to reflect on this.
我只是想让你反思一下这一点。
I've been perplexed by it for a long time.
我为此困惑了很长一段时间。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In some sense, it makes total sense.
从某种意义上说，这是完全有道理的。
But as a scientist, I've learned, yeah, but.
但作为一名科学家，我了解到，是的，但是。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's just like, what's really going on here?
就像，这里到底发生了什么？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
I think the part of the story that's the most head-scratching is that they're in relationships, so shouldn't they be-
我认为故事中最令人头疼的部分是他们处于恋爱关系中，所以他们不应该——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In the second case.
在第二种情况下。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah, in the second case.
是的，在第二种情况下。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
So shouldn't they be getting the feedback that's positive on a regular basis anyway?
那么他们不应该定期得到积极的反馈吗？
Let's, for the sake of argument, just assume that she was.
为了便于讨论，我们假设她是。
So she was getting positive feedback at home, and yet the experience of having less appealing men come up to her led her to feel like, ooh, I need to do something to reaffirm that.
所以她在家里得到了积极的反馈，然而，那些不太有吸引力的男人来找她的经历让她觉得，哦，我需要做点什么来重申这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I think it was the question, "Am I losing it?" Was kind of the language that came up.
嗯，我想问题是“我会失去它吗？”这是一种出现的语言。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Am I losing it?
我失去它了吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Am I losing it?
我失去它了吗？
Whatever it was.
不管是什么。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
One of the reasons that scientifically I am out here questioning the usefulness of the mate value construct is because I know that people of, quote unquote, "low value" can have absolutely fantastic relationships, and people of, quote unquote, "high value" can have absolutely terrible relationships.
从科学上讲，我在这里质疑伴侣价值结构的有用性的原因之一是因为我知道，“低价值”的人可以拥有绝对美妙的关系，而“高价值”的人可以拥有绝对糟糕的关系。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, I've observed that-
哦，我观察到——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
many, many times.
很多很多次。
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
There you go.
就这样吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
So that happens all the time.
所以这种情况经常发生。
I think one of the strongest, most resonant things that mate value does for us, or the way that we experience it most acutely, is indeed in the attention we get from strangers and/or the junior high type scenarios that we talked about.
我认为，伴侣价值对我们来说最强烈、最引起共鸣的事情之一，或者说我们最敏锐地体验它的方式，确实是我们从陌生人和/或我们谈论的初中类型场景中得到的关注。
So that we do have a level of attractiveness, and it changes as we age.
所以我们确实有一定程度的吸引力，而且它会随着年龄的增长而变化。
There is a consensus out there about how desirable we are, and that consensus is not gonna stay exactly where it is.
人们对于我们的理想程度达成了共识，但这种共识不会停留在原地踏步。
It's gonna shift.
它会转变。
And you might be in a relationship and be very happy with the person who unambiguously thinks you're a 10, and yet still wonder, what does everybody else think?
你可能在恋爱中，对那个明确认为你是 10 分的人感到非常满意，但仍然想知道其他人是怎么想的？
Do they think I'm a seven?
他们认为我是七岁吗？
Do they think I'm a four?
他们认为我是四号吗？
What has happened to me?
我到底怎么了？
So I totally get that experience of how am I coming across to the world?
所以我完全明白我是如何看待这个世界的？
Is it less than I thought it was?
是不是比我想象的要少？
And that the only great information that you have is how strangers respond to you.
你所拥有的唯一重要信息就是陌生人如何回应你。
It's sort of a funny way of flipping all of this stuff around because, again, as a relationships researcher, my bias is always, your husband thinks you're a 10.
这是一种有趣的翻转所有这些东西的方式，因为，作为一名关系研究员，我的偏见始终是，你的丈夫认为你是 10 分。
You think he's a 10.
你以为他是10号
You won the lottery.
你中了彩票。
That's it.
就是这样。
You did it.
你做到了。
But I acknowledge, yeah, there can be cases where we still wonder about what strangers think of us, and it might matter to our sense of self-worth and sense of who we are.
但我承认，是的，在某些情况下，我们仍然想知道陌生人对我们的看法，这可能对我们的自我价值感和自我意识很重要。
So I'm not gonna judge it, but it is a fascinating flip of the way I typically think about these things.
所以我不会对此做出评判，但这与我通常思考这些事情的方式相比是一个令人着迷的转变。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It makes me wonder whether our notions of self, and this goes back to what we were talking about before, the Esther Perel thing and-
这让我想知道我们的自我观念是否，这又回到了我们之前谈论的，埃丝特·佩雷尔的事情，以及——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
attractiveness that sort of boomerangs back into the relationship.
吸引力会像回旋镖一样回到关系中。
Something that's gonna be uncomfortable for a lot of people to hear, but at some level, all of it makes me wonder whether there's a healthy compartmentalization that we could adopt as a society.
对于很多人来说，这可能会让人感到不舒服，但在某种程度上，这一切让我想知道我们作为一个社会是否可以采用一种健康的划分。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is not to say anyone can be attracted to anyone, and therefore commitment isn't real.
这并不是说任何人都可以被任何人所吸引，因此承诺是不真实的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Nor is it saying, okay, when you're in a committed relationship, it's a complete black box.
它也不是说，好吧，当你处于一段忠诚的关系中时，它是一个完全的黑匣子。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Because there is this thing called the internet.
因为有一个东西叫做互联网。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there is this thing called the human psyche.
有一种东西叫做人类心理。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you study it-
然后你研究它——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
around these issues.
围绕这些问题。
But maybe if people understood that those are two different things.
但也许如果人们明白这是两件不同的事情。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sometimes we refer to it as the shiny object, but that that's an aspect of self, or it's an aspect of wanting that's not not real.
有时我们把它称为闪亮的物体，但那是自我的一个方面，或者是想要的一个方面，那不是不真实的。
It's real.
这是真的。
But that maybe there's a way to compartmentalize it so that it has the potential to be toxic to a relationship.
但也许有一种方法可以将其区分开来，这样它就有可能对一段关系产生毒害。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But acknowledging that it's real, that it's part of our wiring, might diffuse some of its power.
但承认它是真实的，它是我们线路的一部分，可能会分散它的一些力量。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like I said, some of these couples that are like, oh yeah, what's the phrase couples have where they're like, oh, you get a, it's like a hall pass.
就像我说的，有些夫妇就像，哦，是的，夫妇有什么短语，他们就像，哦，你得到了，就像大厅通行证一样。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is never gonna happen, right?
这永远不会发生，对吧？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
She's like, "You know so-and-so."
她就像是，“你认识某某。”
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"My wife gets a hall, I get a hall pass with," because basically it's never gonna happen.
“我的妻子得到了一个大厅，我得到了一个大厅通行证，”因为基本上这永远不会发生。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah, right.
是的，对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's not really a hall pass.
所以这并不是真正的大厅通行证。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a hall pass that exists in this alternate universe where the other person could actually sleep with someone.
这是一个存在于另一个宇宙中的大厅通行证，在那里另一个人实际上可以和某人睡觉。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Be careful with the hall of fame notion-
小心名人堂的概念——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because I don't know where that could lead.
因为我不知道这会导致什么结果。
I'm not suggesting it.
我不是建议这样做。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
They need to be, like, really famous.
他们需要非常出名。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not a protocol I suggest.
这不是我建议的协议。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Really famous.
确实很有名。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not a protocol I suggest.
这不是我建议的协议。
But it's kind of interesting because the parallel that comes to mind is, if you're in Los Angeles long enough, you get to know some people who are actors.
但这很有趣，因为想到的相似之处是，如果你在洛杉矶呆得足够长，你就会认识一些演员。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And from time to time, you'll run into somebody, male or female, who was a spectacular actor-
有时，你会遇到某个人，无论是男性还是女性，他都是一位出色的演员——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
had an amazing run on a comedy series or movies, and they're no longer working.
在喜剧系列或电影中取得了惊人的成绩，但它们不再起作用了。
And it is a bimodal distribution.
它是双峰分布。
People who are happy and content and focusing on their life and can say-
快乐、满足、专注于自己生活的人可以说——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
I've always wondered about this, yeah
我一直想知道这个问题，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that was the younger, more attractive, working, funny, sexy, whatever, and this is men and women, versus the tortured, "I'm not getting work," "The work is not as good as it used to be." And I've seen this with people who had fame young for other reasons, in sports and things like that, and they are crushed.
那是更年轻、更有魅力、有工作、有趣、性感等等，这是男人和女人，而不是那些饱受折磨的人，“我没有找到工作”，“工作不如以前那么好”。我在那些因其他原因在体育等领域年轻时成名的人身上看到过这种情况，他们被压垮了。
And so what you want to say is, "Just realize that you have this awesome aspect of self that-"
所以你想说的是，“只要意识到你有一个令人敬畏的自我方面——”
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
doesn't live in you right now anymore.
现在不再住在你里面了。
But it's-
但它是——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
still you.
还是你。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You've got that.
你已经做到了。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think there's a similarity here.
我认为这里有相似之处。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If people would just be like, "I've got everything I need, and I'm good because, yeah, that other stuff exists, and I feel good about it."
如果人们会说，“我已经拥有了我需要的一切，我很好，因为，是的，还有其他东西存在，我对此感觉很好。”
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not like I'm going to pretend it doesn't exist.
我不会假装它不存在。
Seems like that could be a very functional way to move through life for people who have this insecurity.
对于那些缺乏安全感的人来说，这似乎是一种非常实用的生活方式。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
I totally agree, and in fact, I'll even go a step further, which is to say, I try, I don't always succeed, but I try to think this way about relationships that have come and gone, too.
我完全同意，事实上，我什至会更进一步，也就是说，我尝试过，我并不总是成功，但我也尝试以这种方式思考来来去去的关系。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Because I think there's a real tendency, I was going to say in our culture, but it might be a lot of cultures, to see past relationships that have ended, and I'll even put divorces in this category, to look back and say, "I failed." And I think people reinforce this, even unintentionally.
因为我认为在我们的文化中存在着一种真正的趋势，但可能在很多文化中，看到过去的关系已经结束，我什至将离婚归为这一类，回顾过去并说，“我失败了。”我认为人们强化了这一点，即使是无意的。
You go through a breakup, a dating breakup, and people say, "I'm so sorry.
你经历了分手、约会分手，人们会说：“我很抱歉。
I know what that's like.
我知道那是什么样的。
Come over and have some ice cream." You go through a divorce, and people say, "Well, what happened?" Because they're trying to make sure that it doesn't happen to them, because they're interpreting it as a failure.
过来吃点冰淇淋吧。”当你离婚时，人们会说：“嗯，发生了什么？”因为他们试图确保这种事不会发生在他们身上，因为他们将其解释为失败。
And boy, I think if we give each other a little bit of grace and see it all as, yeah, that was a thing that happened.
天啊，我想如果我们给彼此一点宽容，并把这一切视为，是的，那就是发生的事情。
It was real.
这是真的。
It mattered in that moment.
那一刻很重要。
Things happen along the way.
事情一路上发生。
It didn't work out.
但没有成功。
I changed.
我改变了。
You changed.
你变了。
Being able to accept that all of those things are real and have or had value, I'd love to try to encourage people to do that.
能够接受所有这些事情都是真实的并且具有价值，我很愿意尝试鼓励人们这样做。
I know there's so many people out there right now who are like, "Yeah, but my ex is a dick," and I'm with you.
我知道现在有很多人会说，“是的，但我的前任是个混蛋”，我同意你的观点。
I totally get that.
我完全明白。
And to the extent that there's any ability to hold these two thoughts in mind simultaneously, I think it's good.
如果有能力同时牢记这两种想法，我认为这是很好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My girlfriend and I have a rule.
我和我女朋友有一个规矩。
We don't have many rules.
我们没有太多规则。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One of the rules is we don't talk negatively about anyone else that we've ever been with.
规则之一是我们不会负面谈论我们曾经交往过的任何人。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We are-
我们是——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
This is good
这很好
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
we're very comfortable with the fact that we've had previous relationships.
我们对我们之前有过恋爱关系这一事实感到非常满意。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because early on, we realized that, in the end, that's all about our choices.
因为我们很早就意识到，最终这取决于我们的选择。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's kind of a crazy argument.
所以这是一种疯狂的争论。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Right.
正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And-
还有——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
What does it say about you?
它对你有何评价？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and she said something beautiful.
她说了一些美丽的话。
She said, "I'm grateful to all the good and bad-"
她说，“我感谢所有的好和坏——”
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
things that you've had to experience, regardless of-"
你必须经历的事情，不管——”
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I said the same to her because the relationship is great, and we bring that.
我对她也说了同样的话，因为我们的关系很好，我们也带来了这一点。
And I do think it was built on the trials and tribulations and-
我确实认为它是建立在考验和磨难之上的，而且——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
great things.
伟大的事情。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now, I'm careful to not ask too many questions.
现在，我小心翼翼地不问太多问题。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And she's careful to not ask too many que- We actually have-
她小心翼翼地不问太多问题-我们实际上有-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
selective ignorance around certain.
对某些事物有选择性的无知。
We just, I don't care.
我们只是，我不在乎。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I genuinely don't go down certain lines of inquiry, and she doesn't either.
我确实不会进行某些询问，她也不会。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think it's great.
我认为这很棒。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think it's great.
我认为这很棒。
I think it sets up-
我认为它成立了——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
This is totally fine
这完全没问题
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
we're here now.
我们现在就在这里。
This is time moving from now forward-
这是从现在开始向前推进的时间——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and where it goes, we determine that.
它的去向由我们决定。
But histories are real.
但历史是真实的。
And I have always admired, I have a few friends that paired up very early.
而且我一直很佩服，我有几个很早就配对的朋友。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they went through all these developmental milestones together.
他们一起经历了所有这些发展里程碑。
First jobs.
第一份工作。
Some even graduate-
有的甚至毕业了——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
college as couples, kids, all this stuff.
大学里的情侣、孩子，所有这些。
And there's something really beautiful about people that you have a long developmental trajectory-
拥有漫长发展轨迹的人确实有一些美丽之处——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
big milestones that they reach together.
他们共同达到的重大里程碑。
Nowadays, people are pairing up later.
如今，人们结对的时间越来越晚。
They're getting divorced and remarrying.
他们离婚又再婚。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's harder to build a common narrative.
建立一个共同的叙述更加困难。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is there any data about common narrative, good or bad, like we went through a lot-
有没有关于常见叙述的数据，无论好坏，就像我们经历过很多一样——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
can be building as well.
也可以建造。
Is time together a factor?
在一起的时间是一个因素吗？
When you control for everything else, is duration of relationship an indicator of quality and satisfaction of relationship?
当你控制其他一切时，关系的持续时间是关系质量和满意度的指标吗？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
So if we're looking strictly at relationship duration, honestly, on average, it tends to be a bad sign.
因此，如果我们严格关注恋爱关系的持续时间，老实说，平均而言，这往往是一个坏兆头。
In other words-
换句话说——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wait a second.
等一下。
Staying together is bad?
住在一起就不好了？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
No, it just means that over time, people were the happiest early on in their relationship than they are-
不，这只是意味着随着时间的推移，人们在恋爱关系的早期比现在最幸福——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, no
哦，不
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
...
...
today.
今天。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Right.
对。
It's actually kind of a bummer.
这实际上是一种无赖。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can you just break up and get back together a bunch?
你们能分手然后复合吗？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah, right.
是的，对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
We don't study that.
我们不研究那个。
We should.
我们应该。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
That might have some promise.
这可能有一些希望。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm not volunteering.
我不是自愿的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
But let me say this.
但让我说一下。
The narrative, right, the idea that we experienced a lot, that we grew, that we faced all these obstacles, that is huge.
叙事，对，我们经历了很多，我们成长，我们面临所有这些障碍，这是巨大的。
So literal time is not the best metric to capture, I think, the essence of what you're getting at.
因此，我认为，字面上的时间并不是捕捉所要理解的本质的最佳指标。
It's a sense that we were in this together and that we had a shared story.
感觉我们在一起，有一个共同的故事。
This is also why breakups are so hard, because not only are you often losing a source of support Perhaps for men, it might be more likely to be their only source of support.
这也是为什么分手如此艰难的原因，因为你不仅经常失去一个支持来源，也许对于男人来说，这可能更可能是他们唯一的支持来源。
Not only do you have to face the possibility of getting back out there, but you're also losing the continuity with yourself.
你不仅要面对重新回到那里的可能性，而且你也会失去与自己的连续性。
You're losing the stories and the narratives that you've built with this other person and all of those memories and all of those components.
你正在失去与另一个人建立的故事和叙述，以及所有这些记忆和所有这些组成部分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I think that's why it can feel like a failure-
嗯，我想这就是为什么它会让人感觉失败——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because there's this understandable, and I think very desirable wish that this-- It's like a novel.
因为这是可以理解的，而且我认为非常希望这——它就像一部小说。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's going to have a beginning, a middle, and an end.
它将有一个开始、中间和结束。
And the end is death.
而结局就是死亡。
Like, we're going to till death do us part.
就像，我们要直到死亡将我们分开。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That is written into-
这被写入——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the script, right?
剧本，对吧？
And so I think if it ends early, I think a lot of people don't know how to integrate it-
所以我认为如果它提前结束，我想很多人不知道如何整合它-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
into their life story.
融入他们的人生故事。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The evolutionary biology part, which seems very real to me, is that all we have is time and energy.
进化生物学部分对我来说似乎非常真实，那就是我们拥有的只是时间和精力。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And when we invest, time is running.
当我们投资时，时间就在流逝。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's no do-over.
没有重来的机会。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's no do-over.
没有重来的机会。
So I think that people carry a lot of resent about the time lost.
所以我认为人们对失去的时间怀有很大的怨恨。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And the energy and the investments that you put into it.
以及您投入的精力和投资。
But, and I think it's useful to think about those investments as being about self and story, and that to the extent that you can use it as an opportunity to like, whether it's like reinvent or recreate or, you preserve some of the parts of yourself from the prior relationship, but maybe not all the prior parts of yourself.
但是，我认为将这些投资视为关于自我和故事是有用的，并且在某种程度上，你可以将其用作喜欢的机会，无论是重新发明还是再创造，或者，你从之前的关系中保留了自己的某些部分，但也许不是你自己之前的所有部分。
There are some things that you'd rather let go.
有些事情你宁愿放弃。
To the extent that you can hold onto the good parts of the story, the parts that you want to remember, that you want to keep.
在某种程度上，你可以保留故事中好的部分，你想要记住的部分，你想要保留的部分。
It'd be so painful when you're going through the breakup in the first place that I think a lot of times people just want to take all of it, put it in a box, and get rid of it.
当你一开始经历分手时，会非常痛苦，我想很多时候人们只是想把所有的东西都拿走，放进盒子里，然后扔掉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Definitely throw away the photos at some point.
肯定会在某个时候扔掉照片。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Although now everything's in the cloud, it's very challenging.
虽然现在一切都在云端，但这非常具有挑战性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hypothalamus versus forebrain.
下丘脑与前脑。
Does the good primitive stuff-
原始的好东西吗？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Hmm
嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
meaning-
意思是——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
sexual attractiveness outweigh the ability to think about how great someone is?
性吸引力超过了思考一个人有多伟大的能力？
Ideally, there's both.
理想情况下，两者都有。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But the good lover beats stated preferences model-
但好情人胜过既定的偏好模型——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is something that-
是这样的东西——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Okay
好的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you've talked about before.
你之前已经谈到过。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In other words, is the real glue in a long-term relationship some form of physical intimacy that in a-- Or put differently, can we think and talk our way, perhaps to ourselves-
换句话说，长期关系中真正的粘合剂是某种形式的身体亲密关系吗？或者换句话说，我们能否以自己的方式思考和交谈，也许是对自己——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
forward through a relationship that doesn't have that physical intimacy?
通过没有那种身体亲密的关系来前进？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Usually, you will see that things like sexual satisfaction or sexual desire for your partner are gonna be pretty tightly related to how you feel about the relationship in general.
通常，您会发现诸如性满意度或对伴侣的性欲之类的事情与您对这段关系的总体感受密切相关。
It's an important component.
这是一个重要的组成部分。
I wouldn't say it's an essential component or even the central component for many people.
我不会说它是许多人的重要组成部分，甚至不是核心组成部分。
But for other people, it certainly can be.
但对于其他人来说，这当然可以。
And I, again, I do believe in the Church of Esther Perel, which is that there are ways of recultivating sexual feelings about somebody, that actually our sexual feelings about somebody, it's not like a switch where it's just on or it's off, and we know just when we look at them, that sometimes it's about the things we're talking about, the time we spend together, or the time that we spend apart, and that that can be rekindling in various ways.
我再说一遍，我确实相信以斯帖佩雷尔教会，那就是有一些方法可以重新培养对某人的性感觉，实际上我们对某人的性感觉，它不像一个开关，只是打开或关闭，我们知道，当我们看着它们时，有时它是关于我们正在谈论的事情，我们在一起度过的时间，或者我们分开度过的时间，并且可以通过各种方式重新点燃。
So I think the key thing for me is not to engage in fatalism about the sexual desire component, that when s-- Like when the passion fades in a relationship, that doesn't mean that it's gone forever.
所以我认为对我来说关键是不要对性欲成分抱有宿命论，当一段关系中的激情消退时，这并不意味着它永远消失了。
It might not be something that you feel like every day at 7:00 PM anymore.
您可能不再像每天晚上 7:00 那样想了。
It might be the kind of thing that comes to the fore in certain circumstances or when you're not totally exhausted.
在某些情况下或者当你没有完全疲惫时，这可能会突然出现。
I think that's okay, and a lot of relationships can absolutely thrive under those circumstances.
我认为这没关系，在这种情况下，很多关系绝对可以蓬勃发展。
And you can push it to extremes, too, where it's like, my partner hasn't been sexually attracted to me in years and years.
你也可以把它推向极端，就像我的伴侣已经很多年没有对我产生性吸引力了。
Like, that's gonna be tough.
就像，那会很艰难。
And part of the reason that's tough is because you don't have the sexual intimacy, but also part of the reason it's tough is because it's making me feel terrible about myself.
困难的部分原因是因为你没有性亲密，但困难的部分原因是它让我对自己感觉很糟糕。
So these things all cascade in various negative ways, but I think they can also be helped in ways, too, that engage some of these more, the parts of our brains that at least we're more aware of and have some agency over.
因此，这些事情都会以各种负面的方式串联起来，但我认为它们也可以通过一些方式得到帮助，这些方式可以让我们大脑中的一些部分更多地参与进来，至少我们更了解这些部分，并拥有一些代理权。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So is it true that sexual attractiveness, that rating the person's-- A person rating their partner as a quote-unquote "good lover" is-
那么，性吸引力，即评价一个人的——一个人评价他们的伴侣为“好情人”——是真的吗？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
among the strongest predictors-
最有力的预测因素之一——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of how positively they feel about their partner?
他们对伴侣的看法如何？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
And I-
而我——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, because that's-
好吧，因为那是——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I really appreciate your answer, but I want to make sure that if that's-
我真的很感谢你的回答，但我想确定一下，如果是-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
true, that comes through.
是的，这是事实。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because what I'm hearing is, yes, it can, those feelings can wax and wane.
因为我听到的是，是的，它可以，这些感觉可能会消退。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And yes, life circumstances and raising kids and job and stress-
是的，生活环境、抚养孩子、工作和压力——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
yes, yes, and yes.
是的，是的，是的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think everyone, including me, acknowledges that.
我想包括我在内的所有人都承认这一点。
But this idea that it's not important after a certain stage or that-
但这个想法认为，在某个阶段之后，这并不重要——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a really healthy romantic relationship can exist without that, what I'm hearing is the-
没有这些，真正健康的浪漫关系也可以存在，我听到的是——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
data pointing the other direction.
数据指向另一个方向。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
No, that is absolutely correct.
不，这是绝对正确的。
The subjective sense that, and that's exactly the wording that we use, the subjective sense that like this person that I am with or this person that i-in that study we have people who are in relationships, but we also have people who are reporting on like just folks that they're initially attracted to.
主观感觉，这正是我们使用的措辞，主观感觉，就像与我在一起的这个人或我的这个人——在这项研究中，我们有处于恋爱关系中的人，但我们也有像他们最初被吸引的人一样进行报告的人。
But in both, it actually doesn't really matter.
但在两者中，实际上并不重要。
In both cases, feeling like this person is a good lover or likely to be a good lover, in the case of the attraction scenarios, is a very, very good sign for how positively you feel about the relationship in general and whether you want the relationship to continue.
在这两种情况下，感觉这个人是一个好情人或可能是一个好情人，在吸引场景的情况下，是一个非常非常好的迹象，表明你对这段关系的总体感觉有多积极，以及你是否希望这段关系继续下去。
It, but again, it's that subjective sense, and that's kind of where I'm getting to this component of like, if If I start to feel like you're not a great lover, that's going to rebound so that then you don't feel desirable, and it's going to sort of cascade in all of these negative ways.
是的，但同样，这就是主观感觉，这就是我要谈到的这个组成部分，如果我开始觉得你不是一个伟大的爱人，那么这种感觉就会反弹，让你感觉不受欢迎，并且会以所有这些负面方式连锁反应。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All seems to converge on it's an important feature of romantic relationships to cultivate, protect from-
所有的事情似乎都集中在浪漫关系的一个重要特征上，那就是培养和防止——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and you describe some, to me, surprising, I think for some reason it makes total sense and yet it's surprising that this kind of energy from the outside can provide positive support to the relationship.
你描述的一些对我来说令人惊讶，我认为出于某种原因它完全有道理，但令人惊讶的是这种来自外部的能量可以为这种关系提供积极的支持。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But Esther said it, Estero-
但埃丝特这么说了，埃斯特罗——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
excuse me, has said it, and others have said it.
不好意思，已经说过了，别人也说过了。
So, very interesting.
所以，非常有趣。
Final question.
最后一个问题。
Sounds like a game show.
听起来像是一个游戏节目。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Final question.
最后一个问题。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
A million-dollar question.
这是一个价值百万美元的问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Your course on this topic and related-
您关于该主题及相关课程的课程-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
topics is incredibly popular for obvious reasons.
出于显而易见的原因，主题非常受欢迎。
It's a super interesting topic.
这是一个超级有趣的话题。
At the end of the day, our species evolved through these dynamics.
归根结底，我们的物种是通过这些动态而进化的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It wasn't all like club the-
这并不像俱乐部-
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the lion, gather food, make babies.
狮子，收集食物，生孩子。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Right.
正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There was a lot of dynamics.
有很多动态。
I always chuckle when people say stress is a holdover from when we were being hunted by saber-toothed tigers.
当人们说压力是我们被剑齿虎追捕时留下的痕迹时，我总是会笑。
No, that's complete nonsense.
不，这完全是无稽之谈。
It was also there for when your spouse went hunting for the day-
当你的配偶外出打猎时，它也在那里——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or gathering, and you didn't know if they were going to come back, or they came back after sundown when normally they're there at sundown.
或者聚会，你不知道他们是否会回来，或者他们在日落后回来，而通常他们是在日落时在那里。
It's for when your baby was sick.
这是当你的宝宝生病时用的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Or people are going to be disappointed in me.
否则人们会对我失望。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The notion that stress is only about predation-
压力只是与掠夺有关的观念——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's just so stupid.
这太愚蠢了。
I'd like to have words with whoever came up with that.
我想和提出这个想法的人谈谈。
It's so dumb.
真是太蠢了。
It's not true.
这不是真的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What are the questions that students are asking most often nowadays?
现在学生最常问的问题是什么？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because I realize that as a 50-year-old male, I suffer from a number of-
因为我意识到，作为一名 50 岁的男性，我患有多种——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
different delusions about relationships as it is for people in their 20s, 30s now, and maybe for everybody, because we're all in our own experience.
对于20多岁、30多岁的人来说，对人际关系有不同的错觉，也许对每个人来说都是如此，因为我们都有自己的经历。
But I think even though the college classroom is not a perfect sample-
但我认为尽管大学课堂不是一个完美的样本——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
by any stretch, presumably there are a lot of different people in there.
无论如何，里面可能有很多不同的人。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Men, women.
男人，女人。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Most are probably straight, some are gay, on average 10%.
大多数可能是异性恋，有些是同性恋，平均为 10%。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're going to get a lot of questions.
你会收到很多问题。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What are the big questions that people seem to want answered that you're just hearing over and over again that are both in the direction of, "This is a challenge," but also, what's going right out there?
人们似乎想要回答哪些重大问题，而你只是一遍又一遍地听到这些问题，这些问题既朝着“这是一个挑战”的方向，又朝着“这是一个挑战”的方向发展，而且，那里正在发生什么？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is anything going right?
一切顺利吗？
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
I think most of the questions are about, there is often an assumption that, yeah, but these days it's so screwed up.
我认为大多数问题都是关于，经常有一个假设，是的，但现在它是如此搞砸了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's what they're saying.
他们就是这么说的。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
You just have this undercurrent.
你只是有这种暗流。
It's almost like, and I worry about this sometimes, that when I teach the science on these topics, there's a general sense of, okay, but this is science from the before times.
这几乎就像，有时我担心这一点，当我教授这些主题的科学时，人们普遍认为，好吧，但这是以前的科学。
Like today, when the apps have controlled everything and nobody goes out anymore, what are we supposed to do?
就像今天，当应用程序控制了一切，不再有人外出时，我们应该做什么？
And sometimes I fall back on the, well, look, these groups and things like we were talking about, these clubs, they're still out there.
有时我会依靠，嗯，看，这些团体和我们正在谈论的事情，这些俱乐部，他们仍然在那里。
You can still get out there and meet people.
您仍然可以走出去结识新朋友。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Activities.
活动。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah, activities.
是的，活动。
Through these avenues, they tend to work pretty well.
通过这些途径，它们往往效果很好。
And at the same time, I have to acknowledge that the generations are going to change, and these folks' experiences will be different than the experiences that my generation had.
与此同时，我必须承认，几代人都会发生变化，这些人的经历将与我们这一代人的经历不同。
So I think in many ways, this ends up being the challenge.
所以我认为从很多方面来说，这最终都是挑战。
To convey the science to folks, but also do it in a way that shows that you're being responsive and aware of the fact that any generation feels like, "But things have changed now." And sometimes it takes a while to know what has really changed.
向人们传达科学知识，但也要以一种能够表明你正在做出反应并意识到任何一代人都会感觉“但现在情况已经改变”这一事实的方式来做。有时需要一段时间才能知道真正发生了什么变化。
I do think that these students go out less often.
我确实认为这些学生外出的次数较少。
I think they drink less often.
我认为他们喝酒的次数较少。
I think they aren't spending time socializing in the same way, and they're interfacing more with technology.
我认为他们不会以同样的方式花时间进行社交，而是更多地与技术互动。
That's probably helping some people, and it's probably really making it hard for some other people.
这可能对一些人有帮助，但也可能让另一些人感到困难。
And so, I try to live the example of, hey, I spent time hanging out with people in groups, and it was hard, and I got rejected, and my high school girlfriend dumped me, but I ended up doing okay.
所以，我试着活出这样的例子，嘿，我花时间和一群人一起出去玩，这很困难，我被拒绝了，我的高中女朋友抛弃了我，但我最终做得还不错。
And I hope that other people can resonate with that message in my classes.
我希望其他人能够在我的课堂上对这一信息产生共鸣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Love it.
喜欢它。
And I'm also hearing, perhaps don't just sign up for something, but be the person who organizes it.
我还听说，也许不要只是报名参加某件事，而是成为组织它的人。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I love this.
我喜欢这个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, someone can-
是的，有人可以——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you can throw a picnic or a party.
你可以举办野餐或聚会。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When I was a graduate student at Davis, I often didn't make it because I was in lab, but-
当我在戴维斯大学读研究生时，我经常没能成功，因为我在实验室，但是——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
every Friday there was a pickup beach volleyball game.
每个星期五都有一场临时沙滩排球比赛。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Oh, that's fantastic.
哦，那太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then people would go to, there was a Thai restaurant that was also a bar.
然后人们会去，那里有一家泰国餐厅，也是一家酒吧。
That night sometimes ended the next morning.
那个夜晚有时会在第二天早上结束。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There was a tattoo shop right across the street that closed called American Graffiti.
街对面有一家名为“美国涂鸦”的纹身店，已经关门了。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
That some people got tattoos.
有些人有纹身。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And those, do not recommend.
而那些，不推荐。
Definitely don't get tattooed drunk.
绝对不要酒后纹身。
Probably don't even get-
或许根本就没有得到——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
do what you want.
做你想做的事。
But it was every Friday.
但那是每个星期五。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there was only one rule, which is that you had to at least attempt to do the kind of bump set approach to beach volleyball.
只有一条规则，那就是你至少必须尝试进行沙滩排球中的碰撞设置方法。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You couldn't just hit it across-
你不能直接击中它——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
You couldn't just go into the...
你不能只是进入...
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it didn't matter how bad you were.
你有多糟糕并不重要。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
You had to do the three-part-
你必须完成三部分-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And then everyone would go and have Thai food.
然后每个人都会去吃泰国菜。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some people would have drinks if they drank.
有些人喝酒了就会喝酒。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some people would have a lot of drinks if they definitely drank.
有些人如果确实喝酒的话，就会喝很多。
It was just a really cool thing.
这真是一件很酷的事情。
Anyone could come.
任何人都可以来。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Things like that happened a lot, and it took zero planning.
类似的事情发生过很多次，而且需要零计划。
It was an email that basically just went out.
这是一封基本上刚刚发出的电子邮件。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
That's cool.
太酷了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And no one person was in charge.
而且没有人负责。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Everybody did it.
每个人都做到了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was just kind of in the collective.
这只是集体中的一种。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They did cooking competition things-
他们做了烹饪比赛的事情——
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Oh, yeah
哦，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
where you'd meet at someone's house, and everyone would have to bring a particular dish, and then everyone would try them.
你会在某人的家里见面，每个人都必须带来特定的菜肴，然后每个人都会尝试它们。
And I had no time in graduate school.
我没有时间读研究生。
I was working all the time.
我一直在工作。
I would make time for these things occasionally, and they were a lot of fun.
我偶尔会抽出时间做这些事情，而且很有趣。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
These things are super easy to do.
这些事情非常容易做到。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You don't have to have any real athletic ability or cooking ability, trust me.
你不需要有任何真正的运动能力或烹饪能力，相信我。
I just feel like there's so much opportunity for that.
我只是觉得有很多这样的机会。
But the barrier must be really there for people if they're not doing these things, because I think it was just reflexive.
但如果人们不做这些事情，障碍就一定存在，因为我认为这只是条件反射。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Technology has a pull, and we can say it's the phones, but we could also say that it's whatever is on your TV.
技术具有吸引力，我们可以说是手机，但我们也可以说是电视上的任何内容。
There's lots of reasons these days for people to stay in that just weren't there 20 to 30 years ago.
如今，人们有很多理由留下来，而 20 到 30 年前却没有这些理由。
I'd hope that the message would resonate like, "You know, gang, whether it's the entertainment companies or the apps, they're trying to keep you away from real socialization.
我希望这个信息能引起共鸣，“你知道，伙计们，无论是娱乐公司还是应用程序，他们都试图让你远离真正的社交。
Young people, don't you like rebelling and stuff?
年轻人，你们不是喜欢叛逆之类的吗？
Rebel against this." Exactly.
对此进行反抗。”确切地。
Form these groups.
形成这些小组。
Go out and meet people again in person.
出去与人再次见面。
I think it's coming back.
我想它会回来的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
I really do.
我真的这么做。
I think it was like a long pandemic hangover where we just kind of forgot this part of our social architecture.
我认为这就像一场长期的大流行宿醉，我们只是忘记了我们社会架构的这一部分。
But it's coming back.
但它又回来了。
It didn't go anywhere.
它没有去任何地方。
We're still social creatures, and we also have these great frontal lobes, and even if you don't feel like going out and interacting with people, you can kind of nudge yourself to do it.
我们仍然是社交动物，我们也有这些伟大的额叶，即使你不想出去与人互动，你也可以推动自己去做。
And I think that's pretty fantastic.
我认为这非常棒。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you so much for the work you do.
非常感谢您所做的工作。
It's very brave.
这是非常勇敢的。
It's very brave because it runs right up against some longstanding theories, of which I still think very highly of a good fraction of the evolutionary biology and psychology literature.
它非常勇敢，因为它与一些长期存在的理论相悖，我仍然对进化生物学和心理学文献中的很大一部分评价很高。
I now have to filter it through these new findings.
我现在必须通过这些新发现来过滤它。
But you've created your own new field, basically, which is, of course, why your book, which we'll provide a link to, and your work is so popular.
但基本上，你已经创建了自己的新领域，这当然就是为什么你的书（我们将提供链接）和你的作品如此受欢迎。
And I love the optimism that it shines into every interaction.
我喜欢它在每次互动中闪耀的乐观精神。
I'm sure people picked up on that, that you're not a doom and gloom guy.
我确信人们已经意识到了这一点，你并不是一个悲观的人。
You're a solutions guy.
你是一个解决问题的人。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really appreciate your time here.
非常感谢您在这里度过的时光。
Many people will thank you, both those in relationship.
很多人都会感谢你，无论是恋爱中的人。
You learned some things to armor your relationship, understand your relationship better yourself.
你学到了一些东西来保护你们的关系，自己更好地理解你们的关系。
And for those who are seeking partners or who are just observing the world around them and are content where they're at, they're going to benefit.
对于那些正在寻找合作伙伴或只是观察周围世界并满足于现状的人来说，他们将从中受益。
So thank you so much.
非常感谢。
Really appreciate you.
真的很感谢你。
Dr. Paul Eastwick:
保罗·伊斯特威克博士：
Thank you so much for having me.
非常感谢你邀请我。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Paul Eastwick.
感谢您参加今天与 Paul Eastwick 博士的讨论。
To learn more about his work and to find a link to his book, "Bonded by Evolution: The New Science of Love and Connection," please see the links in the show note caption.
要了解有关他的工作的更多信息并找到他的书《进化的结合：爱与联系的新科学》的链接，请参阅节目注释标题中的链接。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的关注按钮来关注播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review, and you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您可以给我们留下五星级的评论，现在您可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the "Huberman Lab" podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有任何疑问，或者对播客、嘉宾或您希望我为“Huberman Lab”播客考虑的主题有意见，请将这些意见放在 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience, and it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这是我花了五年多时间编写的一本书，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验，涵盖了从睡眠到运动到压力控制的各个方面的方案，以及与注意力和动机相关的方案，当然，我还为所包含的方案提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There you can find links to various vendors.
在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." And if you're not already following me on social media, I am hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 hubermanlab。
So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the "Huberman Lab" podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the "Huberman Lab" podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与“Huberman Lab”播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与“Huberman Lab”播客上的信息不同。
Again, it's hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
再说一遍，所有社交媒体平台上都是 hubermanlab。
And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.
我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。
All of that is available completely zero cost.
所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter, and enter your email.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的“菜单”选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件即可。
And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Paul Eastwick.
再次感谢您参加今天与 Paul Eastwick 博士的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
"I want to date with rules," Carty says.
“我想按规则约会，”卡蒂说。
"Rules?" Rucka asks.
“规则？”鲁卡问道。
This is the love story of real Hinge couple Carty and Rucka, written and read by me, Nicola Dinan.
这是真实的 Hinge 夫妇 Carty 和 Rucka 的爱情故事，由我 Nicola Dinan 撰写和阅读。
Listen to the free audiobook now.
立即收听免费有声读物。