Science-Based Meditation Tools to Improve Your Brain & Health | Dr. Richard Davidson
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
We actually have really good data on this that at least for beginning meditators, if you do it for 30 days and you do it just five minutes a day, you will see a significant reduction in symptoms of depression, symptoms of anxiety, and symptoms of stress.
事实上，我们有很好的数据表明，至少对于冥想初学者来说，如果你坚持 30 天，每天只做 5 分钟，你就会发现抑郁症状、焦虑症状和压力症状显着减轻。
We've shown that repeatedly in randomized controlled trials.
我们已经在随机对照试验中反复证明了这一点。
You'll see an increase on measures of well-being or flourishing, and we can talk about what those actually mean.
你会看到幸福感或繁荣程度的增加，我们可以讨论它们的实际含义。
You can even see, just with this amount of practice, a reduction in IL-6.
您甚至可以看到，仅通过大量练习，IL-6 就会减少。
IL-6 is a pro-inflammatory cytokine.
IL-6 是一种促炎细胞因子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Dr. Richie Davidson.
今天我的客人是里奇·戴维森博士。
Dr. Richie Davidson is a professor of psychology and psychiatry at the University of Wisconsin-Madison.
里奇·戴维森博士是威斯康星大学麦迪逊分校的心理学和精神病学教授。
He is a pioneer in the study of how meditation impacts the brain, both during meditations, but also how it changes your brain over time, what we refer to as neuroplasticity.
他是研究冥想如何影响大脑的先驱，不仅在冥想过程中，而且还研究冥想如何随着时间的推移改变你的大脑，我们称之为神经可塑性。
Today, we discuss the incredible health and neuroplasticity benefits that come from regular meditation, including very brief meditations of just five minutes per day.
今天，我们讨论定期冥想（包括每天仅五分钟的非常简短的冥想）对健康和神经可塑性的令人难以置信的好处。
Dr. Davidson also dispels many common myths about meditation.
戴维森博士还消除了许多关于冥想的常见误解。
For example, contrary to what most people believe, the point of meditation is not to clear your mind or to feel inner peace during the meditation, but rather to observe your thoughts and any stress you might experience during the meditation.
例如，与大多数人的看法相反，冥想的目的不是在冥想过程中理清思绪或感受内心的平静，而是观察你的想法以及冥想过程中可能遇到的任何压力。
And in doing so, it's kind of like the final hard repetitions of resistance exercise or the burn you might feel during cardio, which comes from lactate.
在这样做的过程中，这有点像抗阻运动的最后一次艰苦的重复，或者你在有氧运动中可能感受到的灼烧感，它来自乳酸。
In that sense, the stress you feel during meditation and your ability to observe it acts as a sort of lactate of the mind that in turn makes you adapt.
从这个意义上说，你在冥想过程中感受到的压力以及你观察压力的能力就像一种心灵的乳酸，反过来又会让你适应。
It makes you more stress-resilient, focused, and peaceful outside of the meditation.
它可以让你在冥想之外更能抗压、更专注、更平静。
Dr. Davidson also explains how your brain changes during different types of meditation, such as open monitoring meditation or eyes open meditation, walking versus seated, and standing meditations, and more.
戴维森博士还解释了您的大脑在不同类型的冥想过程中如何变化，例如开放式监控冥想或睁眼冥想、步行与坐着、站立冥想等。
I've been doing meditation over many years, but this conversation with Dr. Richie Davidson changed my daily routine.
我多年来一直在进行冥想，但与里奇·戴维森博士的这次谈话改变了我的日常生活。
Afterwards, I immediately started implementing a five-minute-per-day meditation of the sort that Dr. Davidson describes specifically for stress resilience.
之后，我立即开始每天进行五分钟的冥想，戴维森博士专门描述了这种冥想，以提高抗压能力。
And I have to say, it's had a profound impact on my levels of mental clarity, focus, and sleep, and stress, just as he explains.
我不得不说，正如他所解释的那样，它对我的思维清晰度、注意力、睡眠和压力水平产生了深远的影响。
In fact, it's proved to be one of the most beneficial practices I've taken on, especially on days when I wake up with tons to do, a little bit stressed or a lot stressed, and if I didn't sleep quite as well as I would've liked.
事实上，事实证明，这是我采取的最有益的做法之一，尤其是当我醒来有大量工作要做、有点压力或压力很大，而且如果我睡得不像我希望的那样的时候。
So today, you're going to hear about the incredible science of meditation, the brain and bodily changes that occur, but also how you can rewire your brain using meditation.
所以今天，您将听到关于冥想的令人难以置信的科学、大脑和身体发生的变化，以及如何使用冥想重新连接您的大脑。
Dr. Richie Davidson is a true pioneer in this field, being one of the first to bring brain imaging and studies of mindfulness and meditation to the West.
里奇·戴维森博士是该领域真正的先驱者，他是将大脑成像以及正念和冥想研究引入西方的第一人之一。
He has, of course, authored some of the most impactful research papers on these topics, but also popular books, including a new book coming out later this month entitled "Born to Flourish: How to Thrive in a Challenging World," which I myself look forward to reading.
当然，他撰写了一些关于这些主题的最有影响力的研究论文，但也撰写了一些受欢迎的书籍，包括本月晚些时候出版的一本新书，题为“生来蓬勃发展：如何在充满挑战的世界中茁壮成长”，我本人很期待阅读这本书。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.
为了与这个主题保持一致，今天的节目确实有赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Richie Davidson.
现在我与里奇·戴维森博士进行讨论。
Dr. Richie Davidson, welcome.
里奇戴维森博士，欢迎。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Thank you, Andrew.
谢谢你，安德鲁。
I'm honored to be here.
我很荣幸来到这里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, it's an honor to have you here.
嗯，很荣幸您能来到这里。
I am a longtime fan of your research, of what you've built at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, the books you've written.
我是您的研究、您在威斯康星大学麦迪逊分校所做的研究以及您所写的书籍的长期粉丝。
We'll talk about your new book.
我们将讨论你的新书。
I didn't even know you had a new book.
我什至不知道你有一本新书。
This wasn't a book tour invite.
这不是巡回售书邀请。
I had seen you give a seminar at Stanford, and I said, "Great, here's my opportunity to finally get you on the podcast." But you really transformed the way that I think about not just meditation, but all states of mind, and how that relates to our individual traits and how those can change over time.
我看到你在斯坦福大学举办研讨会，我说：“太好了，这是我终于让你加入播客的机会。”但你确实改变了我思考的方式，不仅是冥想，还有所有的心态，以及它与我们个人特征的关系以及这些特征如何随着时间的推移而改变。
Today, we'll talk about concept and protocols, but I'm curious how you think about states of mind generally.
今天，我们将讨论概念和协议，但我很好奇您通常如何看待心态。
I think it's really important that we frame the discussion with this because we all know what sleep is.
我认为我们以此为框架进行讨论非常重要，因为我们都知道睡眠是什么。
Most people have heard that sleep has different components, REM sleep, et cetera.
大多数人都听说过睡眠有不同的组成部分，快速眼动睡眠等等。
We know what it is to be awake, stressed versus calm, but how should we think about states of mind?
我们知道什么是清醒、有压力和平静，但我们应该如何看待心态？
And then once you tell us how you think about that, perhaps then we can better place this thing we call meditation into a particular bin.
然后，一旦你告诉我们你对此有何看法，也许我们可以更好地将我们称之为冥想的东西放入特定的垃圾箱中。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
So thank you first for having me, Andrew, and I just want to say I've been a long-term fan of yours, so I'm really happy to be here.
首先感谢你邀请我，安德鲁，我只想说我一直是你的长期粉丝，所以我很高兴来到这里。
In terms of states of mind, I think that at the outset, it's really important that we also remind listeners that there's a thing called traits, too.
就心态而言，我认为从一开始，我们也提醒听众还有一种叫做特质的东西，这一点非常重要。
And so we can't talk about states without also talking about traits, and we'll get to traits in a moment.
因此，我们不能在不讨论特征的情况下谈论状态，我们稍后将讨论特征。
But I think with regard to states, we can think of them as organized patterns of activity in the brain that have corresponding organized mental correlates, if you will, or subjective correlates.
但我认为就状态而言，我们可以将它们视为大脑中有组织的活动模式，如果您愿意的话，它们具有相应的有组织的心理关联或主观关联。
And there are certain states that occur with regularity that are part of our biological rhythms.
有些状态会定期发生，这是我们生物节律的一部分。
And so most human beings will have states of wakefulness, of deep sleep, and of REM sleep every day And that is regulated by well-known kinds of biological rhythms.
因此，大多数人每天都会处于清醒状态、深度睡眠状态和快速眼动睡眠状态，这是由众所周知的生物节律调节的。
And then there are other kinds of states that are sometimes described that are states during what we normally think of as waking, although I think honestly, the concept of state is often used loosely without rigorous boundary criteria for what constitutes a state and how it might be distinguished from another state.
有时会描述其他类型的状态，这些状态是我们通常认为的清醒状态，尽管我诚实地认为，状态的概念经常被宽松地使用，没有严格的边界标准来说明什么构成状态以及如何将其与另一种状态区分开来。
There are certain states which, if they occur with regularity, will lead to a trait.
有些状态如果有规律地发生，就会导致某种特质。
They'll lead to a shift in the baseline for the next state.
它们将导致下一个状态的基线发生变化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
There was a paper I wrote many years ago with my dear friend and colleague, Daniel Goleman, who I wrote the book "Altered Traits" with.
很多年前，我和我亲爱的朋友兼同事丹尼尔·戈尔曼（Daniel Goleman）一起写了一篇论文，我和他一起写了《改变的特质》一书。
And the origin of "Altered Traits" is really in a sentence that we wrote in a paper 20 years earlier, where we said, "The after is the before for the next during."
而“改变的特质”的起源实际上是我们20年前在一篇论文中写的一句话，我们说“The after is the before for the next while”。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The after is the before-
后面就是前面——
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
For the next during
对于接下来的期间
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for the next during.
为接下来的期间。
Let's drill into that for a second.
让我们深入探讨一下。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So what we mean by that is that how you are after a state.
所以我们的意思是你追求一个状态时的状态。
Say you do a little meditation practice and it leads to a state change.
假设你做了一点冥想练习，它会导致状态改变。
That state change may persist-
这种状态变化可能会持续——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
...
...
in some way, and that becomes the next before for the next during.
以某种方式，这成为下一个之前的下一个期间。
The during is the state, is say, the meditation state.
期间是一种状态，也就是说，冥想状态。
And so it's a description of how a state can lead to a trait.
所以它描述了一种状态如何导致一种特质。
In the domain of emotion, you might think that frequent bouts of anger, which you can think of as a state, can lead to the trait of irritability.
在情感领域，你可能会认为频繁发作的愤怒（你可以将其视为一种状态）会导致易怒的特征。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Which is sort of chronically having a low threshold.
这有点长期具有较低的阈值。
You can think of a trait, in certain cases, as altering the threshold for the elicitation of a state.
在某些情况下，您可以将特征视为改变引发状态的阈值。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
So a trait of irritability would be a trait where you have a lowered threshold for the elicitation of anger, for example.
因此，例如，易怒的特征就是你引发愤怒的阈值较低的特征。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah, I love that example because I know that many people will resonate with it because so much of what we see online nowadays is designed to capture our attention by engaging a negative affect, a mild anger, frustration, or even outrage.
是的，我喜欢这个例子，因为我知道很多人会产生共鸣，因为我们现在在网上看到的很多内容都是为了通过负面情绪、轻微的愤怒、沮丧甚至愤怒来吸引我们的注意力。
There's other content online too, of course, and this podcast is online after all, and many other sources of what I consider benevolent educational information.
当然，还有其他在线内容，而且这个播客毕竟是在线的，还有许多其他我认为仁慈的教育信息来源。
But it is so true that what we experience in one portion of our day impacts how we are in the rest of our day.
但确实如此，我们在一天中的某一段时间所经历的事情会影响我们在一天中其余时间的表现。
And perhaps the simplest correlate for all of it, for me anyway, is sleep.
无论如何，对我来说，也许所有这一切最简单的关联就是睡眠。
If I sleep really well for three or four nights in a row, I wake up in a certain state, that certainly makes my day go differently.
如果我连续三四个晚上睡得很好，我就会在某种状态下醒来，这肯定会让我的一天变得不同。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the inverse is also true.
反之亦然。
If I don't sleep well.
如果我睡不好的话。
I feel like we have such great nomenclature and understanding of brain activity, and how that impacts emotionality for sleep.
我觉得我们对大脑活动及其如何影响睡眠情绪有很好的命名和理解。
We know that REM sleep-based dreams are very vivid, slow-wave sleep-based dreams are less vivid, perhaps.
我们知道，基于快速眼动睡眠的梦非常生动，而基于慢波睡眠的梦可能不太生动。
We know the electrical activities associated with those different states of sleep.
我们知道与不同睡眠状态相关的电活动。
I'm aware of a lot less information about brain activities and clear definitions of waking states of mind.
我知道有关大脑活动和清醒状态的明确定义的信息要少得多。
Do you mind if we talk about this for a little bit?
你介意我们谈谈这个吗？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's been a few years since I've heard about, and I don't think we've ever really talked on this podcast about alpha waves, beta waves, theta waves.
我已经好几年没听说过 alpha 波、beta 波、theta 波了，而且我想我们在这个播客上还没有真正讨论过 alpha 波、beta 波、theta 波。
Maybe you just educate us a bit on some of the waking brain states that we've all experienced, perhaps are in right now, but we just don't hear about that much anymore.
也许你只是向我们介绍了一些我们都经历过的、也许现在就处于的清醒大脑状态，但我们只是不再听到那么多了。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
No. So yeah, we can talk about those oscillations of brain electrical activity, and there are broad suggestions for what kind of state they may reflect.
不。所以，是的，我们可以讨论脑电活动的这些振荡，并且对于它们可能反映什么样的状态有广泛的建议。
And I'll go through that, but it's also important to recognize that you can be showing alpha activity in one part of the brain and beta activity in another part of the brain simultaneously.
我将详细介绍这一点，但同样重要的是要认识到，您可以同时在大脑的一个部分显示 α 活动，在大脑的另一部分显示 β 活动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
And so it's a bit coarse to talk about these as general characteristics, but there could be times when we see predominantly one oscillation or another.
因此，将这些作为一般特征来讨论有点粗俗，但有时我们可能会主要看到一种或另一种振荡。
And so talking about generalized states in that context may be more reasonable.
因此，在这种情况下谈论广义状态可能更合理。
So with that as a caveat, let me say that in humans, we see a broad range of frequencies that go from approximately one hertz, one cycle per second, to approximately 40 hertz.
因此，作为一个警告，我要说的是，在人类中，我们看到的频率范围很广，从大约 1 赫兹（每秒一个周期）到大约 40 赫兹。
And from roughly one to four hertz is delta activity that is typically not seen during waking.
大约 1 到 4 赫兹是 Delta 活动，通常在清醒时看不到。
It's predominant during deep sleep.
它在深度睡眠期间占主导地位。
And there is data that suggests that the density of delta activity or slow-wave activity during deep sleep is actually diagnostic of how restorative that sleep is, which is a whole separate set of issues and super cool.
有数据表明，深度睡眠期间三角洲活动或慢波活动的密度实际上可以诊断睡眠的恢复程度，这是一组完全独立的问题，而且非常酷。
And there are actually some really interesting, highly novel strategies now using neurostimulation to actually boost slow-wave activity during deep sleep, which may actually help to potentiate some of the skill acquisition that we do during the day-
实际上，现在有一些非常有趣、非常新颖的策略，使用神经刺激来增强深度睡眠期间的慢波活动，这实际上可能有助于增强我们在白天获得的一些技能——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
...
...
including meditation.
包括冥想。
And we're doing some of that work now, which is actually, you had asked earlier before we started about some novel new work that we're doing, and that's also one of the really cool new things.
我们现在正在做一些工作，实际上，在我们开始之前您就已经问过我们正在做的一些新颖的新工作，这也是非常酷的新事物之一。
So we can dive into that.
所以我们可以深入探讨这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break to acknowledge one of our sponsors, David.
我想稍微休息一下，向我们的赞助商之一大卫表示感谢。
David makes protein bars unlike any other.
大卫制作的蛋白质棒与众不同。
Their newest bar, the Bronze Bar, has 20 grams of protein, only 150 calories, and zero grams of sugar.
他们最新的 Bronze Bar 含有 20 克蛋白质，仅 150 卡路里，零克糖。
I have to say, these are the best-tasting protein bars I've ever had, and I've tried a lot of protein bars over the years.
我不得不说，这些是我吃过的味道最好的蛋白质棒，这些年来我尝试过很多蛋白质棒。
These new David bars have a marshmallow base, and they're covered in chocolate coating, and they're absolutely incredible.
这些新的大卫巧克力棒有一个棉花糖底座，上面覆盖着巧克力涂层，它们绝对令人难以置信。
I, of course, eat regular whole foods.
当然，我经常吃天然食品。
I eat meat, chicken, fish, eggs, fruits, vegetables, et cetera.
我吃肉、鸡肉、鱼、鸡蛋、水果、蔬菜等等。
But I also make it a point to eat one or two David bars per day as a snack, which makes it easy to hit my protein goal of one gram of protein per pound of body weight.
但我也强调每天吃一两块大卫棒作为零食，这样很容易达到我每磅体重一克蛋白质的蛋白质目标。
And that allows me to take in the protein I need without consuming excess calories.
这使我能够摄入所需的蛋白质，而不会消耗过多的热量。
I love all the David Bronze Bar flavors, including Cookie Dough, Caramel Chocolate, Double Chocolate, Peanut Butter Chocolate.
我喜欢大卫青铜棒的所有口味，包括饼干面团、焦糖巧克力、双重巧克力、花生酱巧克力。
They all actually taste like candy bars.
它们实际上尝起来都像棒棒糖。
Again, they're amazing.
再说一次，他们太棒了。
But again, they have no sugar, and they have 20 grams of protein with just 150 calories.
但同样，它们不含糖，并且含有 20 克蛋白质，只有 150 卡路里热量。
If you'd like to try David, you can go to davidprotein.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 David，可以访问 david Protein.com/huberman。
Right now, David is offering a deal where if you buy four cartons, you get the fifth carton for free.
现在，大卫正在提供一项优惠，如果您购买四箱，您可以免费获得第五箱。
You can also find David on Amazon or in stores such as Target, Walmart, and Kroger.
您还可以在亚马逊或 Target、沃尔玛和克罗格等商店找到 David。
Again, to get the fifth carton for free, go to davidprotein.com/huberman.
同样，要免费获得第五箱，请访问 david Protein.com/huberman。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Eight Sleep.
今天的节目也是八觉给我们带来的。
Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep-tracking capacity.
八睡眠公司生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。
One of the best ways to ensure you get a great night's sleep is to make sure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct.
确保您睡个好觉的最佳方法之一是确保睡眠环境的温度正确。
And that's because in order to fall asleep and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees.
这是因为为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，您的体温实际上必须下降约一到三度。
And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees.
为了醒来时感觉神清气爽、精力充沛，您的体温实际上必须升高约一到三度。
Eight Sleep automatically regulates the temperature of your bed throughout the night according to your unique needs.
八睡眠会根据您的独特需求自动调节整个晚上的床温。
I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for nearly five years now, and it has completely transformed and improved the quality of my sleep.
我已经睡在八睡眠床垫罩上近五年了，它彻底改变并改善了我的睡眠质量。
The latest Eight Sleep model is the Pod 5.
最新的八睡眠型号是 Pod 5。
This is what I'm now sleeping on, and I absolutely love it.
这就是我现在睡觉的地方，我非常喜欢它。
It has so many incredible features.
它有很多令人难以置信的功能。
For instance, the Pod 5 has a feature called Autopilot, which is an AI engine that learns your sleep patterns and then adjusts the temperature of your sleeping environment across different sleep stages.
例如，Pod 5有一个名为Autopilot的功能，这是一个人工智能引擎，可以学习你的睡眠模式，然后在不同的睡眠阶段调整你的睡眠环境温度。
It'll even elevate your head if you're snoring, and it makes other shifts to optimize your sleep.
如果您打鼾，它甚至会抬高您的头部，并进行其他转换以优化您的睡眠。
If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, go to eightsleep.com/huberman to get up to $350 off the new Pod 5.
如果您想尝试八睡眠，请访问八睡眠.com/huberman，新款 Pod 5 最高可享受 350 美元优惠。
Eight Sleep ships to many countries worldwide, including Mexico and the UAE.
八号睡眠船运往世界各地的许多国家，包括墨西哥和阿联酋。
Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $350.
同样，访问八睡眠.com/huberman 最多可节省 350 美元。
I saw a paper recently that described a, and forgive me if this was one of your papers.
我最近看到一篇论文描述了 a，如果这是你的论文之一，请原谅我。
I don't think it was.
我不认为是这样。
It described a pre-sleep meditation that one could do to significantly increase the amount of growth hormone that's released once one gets to sleep.
它描述了一种睡前冥想，可以显着增加入睡后释放的生长激素的量。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I thought-
我想——
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
That wasn't ours.
那不是我们的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I thought, "This can't..." And then I realized this makes total sense, right?
我想，“这不能……”然后我意识到这完全有道理，对吧？
It has to do with, I forget the sentence you wrote, but that how we exit one state impacts how we encounter the next one.
这与，我忘记了你写的那句话有关，但我们如何退出一种状态会影响我们如何遇到下一种状态。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And perhaps even our trait within that next event of life.
也许甚至是我们在下一次生活中的特质。
So we'll definitely get back to this when we talk about protocols, because I think that people vastly underestimate the extent to which different, let's call them meditations, for lack of a better word right now, how that can impact how we show up to work, how we show up to relating, how we show up even to sleep.
因此，当我们谈论协议时，我们肯定会回到这一点，因为我认为人们极大地低估了不同的程度，让我们称之为冥想，因为现在缺乏更好的词，这会如何影响我们如何表现出工作，我们如何表现出联系，我们如何表现出甚至睡觉。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's not just about being calm so you can fall asleep.
这不仅仅是为了让你保持平静才能入睡。
Turns out this meditation that was described boosts growth hormone in an incredible way without altering some of the other features of sleep.
事实证明，所描述的这种冥想可以以令人难以置信的方式增强生长激素，而不会改变睡眠的其他一些特征。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
I saw that paper, too.
我也看到了那张纸。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, okay.
哦，好吧。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
It wasn't ours.
这不是我们的。
Yeah.
是的。
But yeah, super interesting.
但是，是的，超级有趣。
I agree.
我同意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah, so just to continue with the brain oscillations.
是的，所以只是继续大脑振荡。
I talked about delta.
我谈到了德尔塔。
The next faster brain rhythm is theta activity, which is roughly between five and seven hertz.
下一个更快的大脑节律是 theta 活动，大约在 5 到 7 赫兹之间。
Theta activity is often seen during transition from wakefulness to sleep.
Theta 活动通常发生在从清醒到睡眠的过渡过程中。
And it's associated with these, as you were saying earlier, these liminal states.
正如您之前所说，它与这些阈值状态有关。
It's also been associated with certain kinds of meditation.
它也与某些类型的冥想有关。
Alpha activity is roughly between eight and 13 cycles per second, or hertz, and it's often characterized as, quote, "relaxed wakefulness." Beta activity is typically defined as roughly 13 to roughly 20 hertz, and it's associated with activation.
Alpha 活动大约在每秒 8 到 13 个周期或赫兹之间，它通常被描述为“放松的觉醒”。 Beta 活动通常定义为大约 13 到大约 20 赫兹，它与激活相关。
If there is a cognitive task that a person is engaged in, you will typically see increases in beta activity, particularly in the cortical regions that are engaged in those cognitive tasks.
如果一个人正在从事认知任务，您通常会看到β活动增加，特别是在从事这些认知任务的皮质区域。
And then finally, there's gamma activity.
最后，还有伽马活动。
Gamma activity is especially interesting.
伽马活动特别有趣。
We see that in meditators, long-term meditators.
我们在冥想者、长期冥想者身上看到了这一点。
Gamma activity has, as its peak frequency, roughly 40 hertz.
伽玛活动的峰值频率约为 40 赫兹。
It is seen in a number of contexts.
它可以在多种情况下看到。
One of them is during what some have called insight.
其中之一是在一些人所谓的洞察力期间。
And insight is where I think most viewers have had the experience of working on a problem, and all of a sudden, they just have an aha moment, and things sort of gel.
我认为，洞察力是大多数观众都有过解决问题的经验，突然之间，他们顿时恍然大悟，事情就变得凝结起来。
They congeal.
他们凝结。
They come together.
他们走到一起。
And there have been some clever experimental designs where investigators have created tasks that increase the likelihood of aha moments.
还有一些巧妙的实验设计，研究人员创建了一些任务来增加顿悟时刻的可能性。
They're sort of trivial in the experimental context.
它们在实验环境中有点微不足道。
They're simple cognitive tasks where all of a sudden you just recognize the answer.
它们是简单的认知任务，您会突然意识到答案。
It might be something like a crossword puzzle, and you're trying to get a word to fit, and suddenly you get the word.
这可能有点像填字游戏，你试图找到一个合适的单词，然后突然你就找到了这个单词。
It comes in a moment, and it's kind of an instantaneous recognition.
它在一瞬间就出现了，这是一种瞬间的认可。
And you typically would see a burst of gamma oscillations that is very short.
您通常会看到非常短的伽马振荡爆发。
The average duration would be around 250 milliseconds.
平均持续时间约为 250 毫秒。
Really short.
真的很短。
What we see in these long-term meditators is the prevalence of high-amplitude gamma activity that goes on for seconds and minutes.
我们在这些长期冥想者身上看到的是持续数秒和数分钟的高振幅伽马活动的普遍性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hm.
嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
When we first saw that, by the way, and There's a lot of interesting history here, but we first reported this in 2004 with very long-term meditators, where the average lifetime practice of this group was 34,000 hours.
顺便说一句，当我们第一次看到这一点时，这里有很多有趣的历史，但我们在 2004 年首次报道了这一点，对象是长期冥想者，该群体的平均终生练习时间为 34,000 小时。
Listeners can go do the arithmetic later, but 34,000 hours is a big number.
听众可以稍后去算一算，但是34000小时是一个很大的数字。
And in these practitioners, we saw these really high amplitude gamma oscillations that actually were visible to the naked eye, which is unusual for this kind of measurement.
在这些从业者身上，我们看到了这些非常高振幅的伽马振荡，这些振荡实际上是肉眼可见的，这对于这种测量来说是不寻常的。
And in the original paper, which was published in PNAS in 2004, we actually had a figure of the raw EEG from one practitioner, just to illustrate how prominent it is that you can see it with the naked eye.
在2004年发表在《美国国家科学院院刊》上的原始论文中，我们实际上有一个来自一位从业者的原始脑电图图，只是为了说明它是多么突出，你可以用肉眼看到它。
And we've subsequently replicated that.
我们随后也复制了这一点。
It's been replicated by others.
它已被其他人复制。
We've also seen that this gamma activity is found during slow-wave sleep.
我们还发现这种伽玛活动是在慢波睡眠期间发现的。
It's actually superimposed on delta oscillations.
它实际上叠加在 Delta 振荡上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is there any evidence that meditation can actually replace sleep, or that it can offset some of the negative effects of mild sleep deprivation?
是否有任何证据表明冥想实际上可以替代睡眠，或者它可以抵消轻度睡眠不足的一些负面影响？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
This is a great question.
这是一个很好的问题。
I think about it a lot.
我想了很多。
I don't think that the evidence is clear on this at all.
我认为这方面的证据根本不明确。
And I'll give several examples.
我会举几个例子。
First, the Dalai Lama, who probably meditates more than anybody I know, he has a practice of literally doing approximately four hours of meditation every day, and he's been doing that for more than 60 years.
首先是达赖喇嘛，他可能比我认识的任何人都冥想得更多，他每天都会进行大约四个小时的冥想，而且他已经这样做了 60 多年。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm reassured by that.
这点我就放心了。
If you told me the Dalai Lama meditates for 40 minutes a week, I'd actually be concerned about the role of Dalai Lama.
如果你告诉我达赖喇嘛每周冥想 40 分钟，我实际上会担心达赖喇嘛的角色。
So, the title.
所以，标题。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
And he very proudly says, "I sleep nine hours a night."
他非常自豪地说：“我每晚睡九个小时。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Nine hours a night, and he gets nine hours of sleep.
每晚九个小时，他就睡九个小时。
That's his regular sleep.
这是他正常的睡眠时间。
And he gets it all the time.
他一直都明白。
And I don't know whether he would say he needs it, but he gets nine hours a night, and he's very proud of that.
我不知道他是否会说他需要它，但他每晚有九个小时的工作时间，他对此感到非常自豪。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
That's one counterexample.
这是一个反例。
Myself, I have done a bunch of sleep science, collaborating with some sleep researchers, and many years ago, one of these people said to me, "Richie, you really should give up an alarm clock.
我自己，与一些睡眠研究人员合作，做了很多睡眠科学研究，很多年前，其中一个人对我说，“里奇，你真的应该放弃闹钟。
Just don't use an alarm clock anymore." And I was getting, at that time, between five and a half and six hours a night of sleep.
只是不要再使用闹钟了。”那时我每晚的睡眠时间在五个半到六个小时之间。
And I gave up the alarm clock, and my average length of sleep increased by about 30 to 45 minutes.
而且我放弃了闹钟，我的平均睡眠时间增加了大约30到45分钟。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
And I feel much better.
我感觉好多了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, sure.
哦，当然。
Especially since the extra sleep tends to be toward morning.
特别是因为额外的睡眠往往是在早上。
You're getting more REM sleep.
您将获得更多的快速眼动睡眠。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But the difference for me between five and a half and six or six and a half is, in terms of just subjective well-being and focus, et cetera, is tremendous.
但对我来说，五岁半和六岁或六岁半之间的区别，就主观幸福感和注意力等而言，是巨大的。
Slightly related question, if one were going to choose to meditate and had the option to do it at a sort of liminal state between, let's say, being awake and going to sleep at night, or between sleep and shortly after one wakes up and starting the day, versus in the middle of the day or in the middle of the morning, is there any advantage to placing meditation in one of these, what I'm calling liminal states or transition states between sleeping and awake, in either direction?
稍微相关的问题是，如果一个人要选择冥想，并且可以选择在一种阈值状态下进行冥想，比方说，在晚上醒来和睡觉之间，或者在睡眠和醒来后不久开始新的一天之间，而不是在中午或早上中间，那么将冥想置于其中一个，我称之为阈值状态或睡眠和清醒之间的过渡状态（无论是哪个方向）有什么优势吗？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
I would say probably for most people, yes is the answer, but I think there's a lot of individual variability.
我想说，对于大多数人来说，答案是肯定的，但我认为存在很大的个体差异。
In general, I would say it's useful to meditate when you're feeling most awake and less sleepy.
一般来说，我认为当你感觉最清醒、最不困的时候进行冥想很有用。
Sleepiness is an important obstacle in meditation, and there's a lot to say about that.
困倦是冥想中的一个重要障碍，对此有很多话要说。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I'm surprised to hear that.
是的，听到这个我很惊讶。
I expected you to say that one should meditate at a time when the brain is closest to sleep, because you want to be in a state of mind that's less about controlling your thoughts.
我原以为你会说，一个人应该在大脑最接近睡眠的时候进行冥想，因为你想要处于一种不那么控制自己思想的精神状态。
But then again, I could also see an argument for how meditation involves a redirect of attention.
但话又说回来，我也可以看到关于冥想如何涉及注意力转移的争论。
So let's actually drill into this a bit.
那么让我们实际深入研究一下这个问题。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Lots to say.
有很多话要说。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What is the meditative state that one is seeking for, quote-unquote, "effective meditation?"
一个人所寻求的“有效冥想”是什么冥想状态？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So first, let me say that just like there are hundreds of different kinds of sports, there are hundreds of different kinds of meditation.
首先，我要说的是，就像有数百种不同的运动一样，也有数百种不同的冥想。
They don't all do the same thing.
他们并不都做同样的事情。
They have different effects on the brain and the body.
它们对大脑和身体有不同的影响。
And so I think it's really important that we not lump all of meditation together.
所以我认为我们不要将所有冥想混为一谈，这一点非常重要。
So that's one really important thing.
所以这是一件非常重要的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can we divide it up?
我们可以把它分开吗？
So for instance, if we were going to draw the parallel with exercise, and maybe we'll do that several times today, we can broadly lump exercise into cardiovascular and resistance training.
例如，如果我们要将运动与运动进行类比，也许我们今天会多次这样做，那么我们可以将运动大致归为心血管和阻力训练。
There's also mobility work, and then there's a bunch of other stuff.
还有流动工作，还有很多其他的事情。
With meditation, can we create some broad bins?
通过冥想，我们可以创建一些宽大的垃圾箱吗？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And what are those broad bins?
那些宽大的垃圾箱是什么？
And then we can go into specific practices.
然后我们就可以进行具体的实践了。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So yes, we can create some broad bins.
所以，是的，我们可以创建一些宽大的垃圾箱。
And we've done that.
我们已经做到了。
We've published some papers that offer typologies for classifying different meditation states.
我们发表了一些论文，提供了对不同冥想状态进行分类的类型。
So one kind of meditation we call focused attention meditation, and focused attention meditation is where you are narrowing your aperture of awareness to a specific object.
因此，我们将一种冥想称为集中注意力冥想，而集中注意力冥想就是将你的意识孔径缩小到特定的对象。
It could be an external object.
它可能是一个外部对象。
It could also be an internal.
它也可能是内部的。
It could be, for example, your respiration.
例如，它可能是您的呼吸。
It could be a sound.
这可能是一种声音。
And there is a narrowing of the aperture.
并且孔径变窄。
And this is all broadly within the category of practices that we would say are cultivating aspects of awareness.
这些都广泛地属于我们所说的培养意识方面的实践范畴。
So another awareness practice is what we call open monitoring meditation.
因此，另一种意识练习就是我们所说的开放监控冥想。
And open monitoring is where there is no specific focus, but rather the aperture is broadened, and there is no specific intention to focus on any one thing or another.
而开放式监控就是没有特定的焦点，而是扩大了光圈，没有特定的意图去关注任何一件事或另一件事。
The invitation is to simply be aware of whatever is arising.
邀请只是简单地意识到正在发生的一切。
As it arises.
当它出现时。
One of the aspirations there, or the invitations, is not to try to get rid of thoughts, because our minds and our brains are built to generate thoughts.
那里的愿望或邀请之一不是试图摆脱思想，因为我们的思想和大脑是为了产生思想而生的。
So there's no goal, if you will, to get rid of thoughts, but rather to, if thoughts arise, that's another object that you can be aware of.
因此，如果你愿意的话，没有目标是要摆脱念头，而是，如果念头生起，那是你可以觉知的另一个目标。
We talked about sleep and sleepiness and that earlier.
我们之前讨论过睡眠和困倦等问题。
You can be aware of being sleepy.
您可以意识到自己困了。
You can be aware of being distracted.
您可以意识到自己分心了。
The goal, if you will, is not to change or to fix anything.
如果你愿意的话，目标不是改变或修复任何东西。
If you will, the invitation is to shift from a mode of doing to a mode of simply being.
如果你愿意的话，邀请就是从一种做事的模式转变为一种简单的存在模式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I want to talk about this thing about doing to being, because the language can sound a bit mystical and vague to people.
我想谈谈“为存在而做”这件事，因为这种语言对人们来说听起来有点神秘和模糊。
But as a longtime practitioner of Yoga Nidra, I've talked a lot about on this podcast, there's this instruction inside of Yoga Nidra to shift from thinking and doing to being and feeling.
但作为瑜伽休息术的长期练习者，我在这个播客上谈了很多，瑜伽休息术中有这样的指导，从思考和做事转向存在和感觉。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Exactly.
确切地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is beautiful language, poetic, et cetera.
这是美丽的语言、诗意的等等。
But also, as neuroscientists, and for the general public, I think it might be useful for us to just maybe just double-click on that for one second.
而且，作为神经科学家和普通公众，我认为双击它一秒钟可能会很有用。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As a neuroscientist, I think of thinking and doing as, okay, doing is action.
作为一名神经科学家，我认为思考和行动就像，好吧，行动就是行动。
So the opposite of that would be stop moving the body.
所以相反的就是停止移动身体。
Thinking, well, there's a whole discussion to be had about what is thinking in neuroscience.
思考，嗯，关于神经科学中的思考是什么，有一个完整的讨论。
But certainly, you wouldn't want to plan.
但当然，你不想计划。
You wouldn't want to be ruminating on the past.
你不会想反省过去的。
Presumably, you would want to be more in a state of sensation and perceiving what's happening right now.
想必，您会想要更多地处于感觉状态并感知现在正在发生的事情。
So is that an appropriate breakdown or is it wrong?
那么这是一个适当的细分还是错误的？
Is it insufficient?
是不是还不够？
I'm not trying to score an A with the professor here.
我并不是想在教授这里获得 A 分。
I'm trying to figure out when we hear move from thinking and doing to being and feeling, what does that mean in terms of actionable steps that people can take?
我试图弄清楚，当我们听到从思考和行动转向存在和感受时，这对于人们可以采取的可行步骤意味着什么？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So I think that the way you describe it is basically accurate with a little bit of perhaps a tweak.
所以我认为你描述它的方式基本上是准确的，可能需要进行一些调整。
So if one is invited to do this and one finds oneself ruminating or planning, for example, which is supposedly an activity you're, quote, "not supposed to be doing," rather than trying to stop it-
因此，如果一个人被邀请这样做，而一个人发现自己在思考或计划，例如，这应该是一项你引用的活动，“不应该做”，而不是试图阻止它 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
...
...
it's simply to be aware of it.
只是要意识到这一点。
"Wow, I'm now planning," or "I'm now ruminating about something that happened in the past." What really is most important is the invitation not to change it, not to actively try to shift it, but to simply be aware.
“哇，我现在正在计划，”或者“我现在正在思考过去发生的事情。”真正最重要的是邀请你不要改变它，不要积极尝试改变它，而只是简单地意识到它。
And one of the, I think, conjectures in all of this is that there's so much going on under the hood that we're typically not aware of.
我认为，所有这一切的其中一个猜想是，在幕后发生了很多我们通常没有意识到的事情。
Our lives are moving at such a pace that the information that is transpiring is occurring at such a rapid rate that we are typically aware of only a small fraction of that.
我们的生活节奏如此之快，以至于我们通常只意识到其中的一小部分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
And this is a practice that's inviting you to simply be aware of that.
这是一种邀请你意识到这一点的做法。
And not doing is a helpful kind of thing, because if we're acting in the world, we obviously need to navigate, and there are things we obviously need to do to be safe and to protect ourselves and so forth.
不做是一件有益的事情，因为如果我们在这个世界上采取行动，我们显然需要导航，并且我们显然需要做一些事情来保证安全并保护自己等等。
And so that will engage other mechanisms.
因此，这将涉及其他机制。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm interested in the possibility, or maybe you've seen this in the data, that there are at least two different types of people.
我对这种可能性感兴趣，或者也许你已经在数据中看到了这一点，即至少有两种不同类型的人。
People who, for instance, go through life feeling, doing, being, thinking, and projecting things out into the world, or maybe they're quiet people and they don't project much out into the world, but they're just doing their thing, and they're not thinking about their thinking.
例如，那些经历过生活感觉、做事、存在、思考和向世界投射事物的人，或者他们可能是安静的人，他们不会向世界投射太多东西，但他们只是在做自己的事情，他们没有思考自己的想法。
They're not thinking about their doing.
他们没有考虑自己的行为。
They're just doing.
他们只是在做。
We know people like this.
我们认识这样的人。
Then there are people who are always multitracking.
还有一些人总是进行多轨处理。
They're self-conscious.
他们是有自我意识的。
They're very self-aware.
他们很有自知之明。
And I'm wondering whether or not a form of meditation where somebody arrives at the meditation very self-aware, like, "Oh, there's my thought about that again, there's my thought about that again," and working perhaps on not judging it, could be beneficial.
我想知道一种冥想形式是否可能是有益的，在这种冥想形式中，人们非常有自我意识地进行冥想，比如，“哦，我又想到了那个，我又想到了那个，”并且努力不去评判它，是否可能是有益的。
But perhaps what that person, quote unquote, "needs" or would benefit from was just being in a state of-
但也许那个人，引用不引用的话，“需要”或将从中受益只是处于一种状态——
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Freedom
自由
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a freedom from their self-monitoring.
摆脱自我监控的自由。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Whereas the other person perhaps could, clinician here, could afford to be a little more self-aware and realize, "Oh, I'm in this mode where..." and see their thinking a little bit.
而另一个人也许可以，这里的临床医生，可以有更多的自我意识并意识到，“哦，我处于这种模式......”并了解他们的想法一点。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Totally.
完全可以。
And you're naming something super important.
你正在命名一些非常重要的东西。
And I think that the way you characterize the second person who is more self-aware, there's more than just self-awareness in your description.
我认为你描述第二个更有自我意识的人的方式，在你的描述中不仅仅是自我意识。
There's a kind of holding back there.
那里有一种阻碍。
It's not just monitoring, but there's a kind of suppression almost.
不只是监视，几乎还有一种压制。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
It's a lot of work.
这是很多工作。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
It's a lot of work.
这是很多工作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it could be stifling for their creativity.
这可能会扼杀他们的创造力。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We had my friend David Choe on the podcast.
我的朋友 David Choe 参加了我们的播客。
Now we're friends.
现在我们是朋友了。
That was actually the first time we had met, but we've become good friends, and he's a brilliant artist.
那实际上是我们第一次见面，但我们已经成为好朋友，而且他是一位出色的艺术家。
Brilliant artist.
才华横溢的艺术家。
And he talks about how the best art comes from just forgetting what anyone thinks or wants.
他谈到最好的艺术是如何来自于忘记别人的想法或想要的。
Rick Rubin talks about this, just getting the audience out of your mind and just letting it flow through you.
里克·鲁宾 (Rick Rubin) 谈到了这一点，只是让观众离开你的脑海，让它在你的脑海中流动。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think great artists do that.
我认为伟大的艺术家都会这样做。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's what we pay money to see.
这就是我们花钱看的东西。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We want to see that form of expression We don't want to see the self-monitoring-
我们希望看到那种表达形式，我们不想看到自我监控——
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
artist.
艺术家。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
That's great.
那太棒了。
And I totally resonate with that.
我对此完全产生共鸣。
And there is a phrase in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition that is called undistracted non-meditation.
藏传佛教传统中有一个词叫“不散乱不禅定”。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Undistracted non-meditation, and that's said to be the highest form of meditation, where you just drop all the crap.
心无旁骛的非冥想，据说这是冥想的最高形式，在那里你可以扔掉所有的废话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Love it.
喜欢它。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
All the techniques, all the control, all the tightness.
所有的技巧，所有的控制，所有的紧张。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is my goal in life.
这是我的人生目标。
Watch out, folks, if this ever happens.
伙计们，如果发生这种情况，请小心。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
But you're totally awake.
但你完全清醒了。
You're fully aware.
你完全清楚。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
But there's no artifice.
但没有任何技巧。
It's just complete freedom.
这只是完全的自由。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
I've had the honor of just hanging out with some people who I think are really in that as a trait, that that's who they are.
我很荣幸能和一些我认为确实具有这种特质的人一起出去玩，他们就是这样的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Rick Rubin's like that.
里克·鲁宾就是这样的人。
He's a close friend, and I can tell you I've spent a lot of time with Rick.
他是一位亲密的朋友，我可以告诉你我和里克一起度过了很多时间。
And how he appears to people and his kind of mythical status, I think a lot of people, his magnetism is because that's real.
他在人们面前的形象以及他的神话地位，我想对很多人来说，他的魅力是因为那是真实的。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He can be in very, very close proximity to things, online, in person.
他可以通过网络、亲自与事物非常非常接近。
He can see all of it.
他可以看到这一切。
He's in real touch with it, but he's still him.
他确实接触过它，但他仍然是他。
Somehow, it doesn't invade him in a way that changes the way he shows up.
不知何故，它并没有以改变他出现的方式的方式侵入他。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If we were to paint little beams of energy, now we're really sounding woo, coming out of-- There's stuff coming out, there's stuff going in, and they're interacting, but they're not contaminating one another.
如果我们要画出小能量束，现在我们真的听起来很不错，出来了——有东西出来，有东西进去，它们相互作用，但它们并没有互相污染。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Where they interact, it just makes both things better.
当他们互动时，只会让事情变得更好。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that's a very, very rare trait.
这是一个非常非常罕见的特征。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah, I agree.
是的，我同意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
There's a term that I often use, which I can talk about how we can define this more technically, but for lack of a better word, I call stickiness.
我经常使用一个术语，我可以谈论如何从技术上更详细地定义它，但由于缺乏更好的词，我称之为粘性。
And it's kind of an affective hysteresis, if you will.
如果你愿意的话，这是一种情感迟滞。
It's kind of where you're hanging on to emotions that may not be useful.
这是一种你执着于可能无用的情绪的地方。
You're carrying stuff from a previous experience into a current experience, and it muddles things.
你把以前的经历带入当前的经历，这会让事情变得混乱。
And our emotional lives are so infused with this kind of stickiness.
我们的情感生活充满了这种粘性。
But with Rick Rubin, or with other people who are showing this, there's no stickiness.
但对于瑞克·鲁宾（Rick Rubin）或其他展示这一点的人来说，没有粘性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
There's no stickiness.
没有任何粘性。
And that's a kind of freedom that I think is very much what we're talking about as the trait manifestation of these kinds of practices.
我认为这就是我们所说的一种自由，作为此类实践的特征表现。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, it's interesting.
是的，这很有趣。
I think a lot of people mistakenly use drugs to try and access that state.
我认为很多人错误地使用药物来试图进入那种状态。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I also think that we have a real, as a species, as a culture, but also as a species, we have a real affinity to people who can embody this freedom that you're talking about.
我还认为，作为一个物种、一种文化，而且作为一个物种，我们对那些能够体现你所说的自由的人有着真正的亲和力。
Great comedians.
伟大的喜剧演员。
Like when-
就像当-
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
Richard Pryor was on- ...
理查德·普赖尔 (Richard Pryor) 正在——...
you're just like...
你就像...
Maybe he had a subscript in there.
也许他那里有一个下标。
Maybe he was devoting 2% of his prefrontal cortex to monitoring, but-
也许他将 2% 的前额皮质用于监控，但是——
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it just seemed like, we call it flow, but we're in their flow, they're in ours.
看起来，我们称之为心流，但我们在他们的心流中，他们也在我们的心流中。
Whatever it is, there's a powerful interaction there that there seems to be very little self-monitoring.
不管是什么，那里有一种强大的互动，而自我监控似乎很少。
Then there are a few other, we see it in athletics.
还有其他一些，我们在田径运动中看到过。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah, totally.
是的，完全可以。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We just see it, we can feel it, and it's super powerful.
我们只是看到它，我们可以感觉到它，而且它非常强大。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that's from the perspective of performing arts or comedic arts.
这是从表演艺术或喜剧艺术的角度来看的。
But for people who want to approach meditation, do you think it's useful at all to ask themselves, before they go into the meditation, are they in a mode of self-monitoring, or are they feeling more free?
但对于想要进入冥想的人来说，你认为在进入冥想之前问问自己是否有用，是否处于自我监控模式，或者是否感觉更自由？
More present to just whatever it is they're experiencing it.
更多地关注他们正在经历的一切。
Experiencing, not questioning it.
体验，而不是质疑。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
And asking them for-
并向他们询问——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you think it's useful, in order to get the most out of a meditation practice-
为了充分利用冥想练习，你认为它有用吗？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I guess what I'm getting at indirectly here is most meditation practices involve shifting from doing one thing to, maybe you're walking, maybe you're open eyes, but typically, I think people either sit or lie down, close eyes, and start focusing on their breathing and trying to, quote-unquote, get present.
我想我在这里间接得到的意思是，大多数冥想练习都涉及从做一件事转变为，也许你在走路，也许你睁着眼睛，但通常情况下，我认为人们要么坐下，要么躺下，闭上眼睛，开始专注于呼吸，并试图，引用-不引用，进入当下。
Is there anything-
有什么东西吗——
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Although the kind of practice that I most often do-
虽然我最常做的那种练习-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm
嗯
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
...
...
is actually with eyes open, but that's-
实际上是睁着眼睛的，但那是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, well, then just tell us about that.
哦，好吧，那就告诉我们吧。
What would be a good, let's use the parallel to cardio again.
更好的是，让我们再次使用与有氧运动相似的比喻。
I would say if somebody's really out of shape and wants to get in shape, I would say the first thing is take two 20-minute walks a day.
我想说，如果一个人的体形真的不好，并且想要塑形，我会说第一件事就是每天散步两次，每次 20 分钟。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then we could talk about getting on a exercise bike, and then maybe doing some resistance, or you start layering things in, right?
然后我们可以讨论骑健身自行车，然后可能做一些阻力，或者你开始分层，对吧？
But what would be the equivalent of the two 20-minute walks a day for meditation?
但是每天两次 20 分钟的散步进行冥想相当于什么？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
So, this is the protocol question, I guess.
所以，我想这是协议问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
I would say it's really important to start modestly, and we often will ask a person, what's the minimum amount of meditation that you think you can commit to every single day, and do it for 30 days consistently?
我想说，谦虚地开始非常重要，我们经常会问一个人，你认为你每天可以进行的最低冥想量是多少，并且持续进行 30 天？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Five minutes.
五分钟。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Perfect.
完美。
Whatever that number is, perfect.
不管这个数字是多少，都是完美的。
Start with that.
从那开始。
And then the next question is, are you comfortable doing it formally as a seated practice, or would you prefer to do it while you're walking or while you're doing another non-cognitively demanding activity?
接下来的问题是，您是否愿意正式以坐姿练习的方式进行练习，还是更愿意在步行或进行其他非认知要求活动时进行？
It could be commuting.
可能是通勤。
It could be Washing the dishes.
可能是洗碗。
There are lots of those kind of activities that we often do on a daily basis that you can actually intentionally use your mind in this way while you're also doing those activities.
我们每天经常进行很多此类活动，在进行这些活动的同时，您实际上可以有意识地以这种方式使用您的思想。
And by the way, we've shown, we actually have really good data on this, that at least for beginning meditators, it doesn't matter if you're doing it as a formal meditation practice or as an active practice.
顺便说一句，我们已经表明，我们实际上有关于这方面的非常好的数据，至少对于初学者冥想者来说，无论你是将其作为正式的冥想练习还是作为积极的练习来进行。
The benefits are absolutely comparable.
好处绝对是可比的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And what are those benefits?
这些好处是什么？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
So if you do it for 30 days, and you do it just five minutes a day, you will see a significant reduction in symptoms of depression, symptoms of anxiety, and symptoms of stress.
因此，如果你坚持这样做 30 天，并且每天只做五分钟，你就会发现抑郁症状、焦虑症状和压力症状显着减轻。
We've shown that repeatedly in randomized controlled trials.
我们已经在随机对照试验中反复证明了这一点。
You'll see an increase on measures of well-being or flourishing, and we can talk about what those actually mean.
你会看到幸福感或繁荣程度的增加，我们可以讨论它们的实际含义。
You can even see, just with this amount of practice, a reduction in IL-6.
您甚至可以看到，仅通过大量练习，IL-6 就会减少。
IL-6 is a pro-inflammatory cytokine that is important in systemic inflammation.
IL-6 是一种促炎细胞因子，在全身炎症中很重要。
And with just this minimal amount of practice, you see a significant reduction in IL-6 over the course of 28 days, five minutes a day.
只需进行如此少量的练习，您就可以在 28 天（每天 5 分钟）的过程中看到 IL-6 显着降低。
We've actually seen changes in the microbiome.
我们实际上已经看到了微生物组的变化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
And we've seen changes in the brain with just this minimal amount of practice.
我们已经看到，仅通过极少量的练习，大脑就会发生变化。
But the important point is that you're doing it every day.
但重要的是你每天都在这样做。
When people ask me what's the best form of meditation that they should do if they're just beginning, I say, "The best form of meditation that you can possibly do is the form of meditation that you actually do." So figure out what that form of meditation is and then stick to it.
当人们问我，如果他们刚刚开始，他们应该采取什么最好的冥想形式，我会说，“你可能做的最好的冥想形式就是你实际做的冥想形式。”因此，弄清楚冥想的形式是什么，然后坚持下去。
Do it every single day.
每天都这样做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love this.
我喜欢这个。
I actually am going to challenge our podcast audience to five minutes a day for 30 days.
事实上，我将向我们的播客观众发起挑战，要求他们每天花 5 分钟，持续 30 天。
I'll put something out on social media.
我会在社交媒体上发布一些内容。
Rob, please remind me to put something out on social media to do five minutes a day for 30 days, because what you describe are significant health effects.
罗布，请提醒我在社交媒体上发布一些内容，每天做五分钟，持续 30 天，因为你所描述的对健康有重大影响。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah, totally.
是的，完全可以。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And as you described them, it made me remember this set of experiments from neuroplasticity.
正如你所描述的，它让我想起了这组来自神经可塑性的实验。
Do you mind if I share these?
你介意我分享这些吗？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Please.
请。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because this is a theoretical/practical question as we move into these protocols.
因为当我们进入这些协议时，这是一个理论/实践问题。
But before we do that, what should we call this protocol?
但在我们这样做之前，我们应该如何称呼这个协议呢？
It's the Richie Davidson-
这是里奇戴维森-
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Five minutes a day.
每天五分钟。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Five minutes a day.
每天五分钟。
Richie's five.
里奇五岁了。
It's the Richie's five meditation.
这是里奇的五冥想。
I'm going to start that.
我要开始了。
Later I'll share what I've been doing, but it's not even that.
稍后我会分享我一直在做的事情，但还不是这样。
I've been doing 10 breaths upon waking.
我醒来后已经做了10次呼吸。
10 breaths before I get out of bed.
10个呼吸后我就起床了。
I'm like, if I can just do 10 breaths of focused meditation before I get out of bed, the whole day will go better, and it tends to.
我想，如果我能在起床前进行 10 次集中冥想呼吸，那么一整天都会过得更好，而且确实如此。
There's this wild set of findings in the neuroplasticity research that most people don't talk about because it's very inconvenient for neuroscientists.
神经可塑性研究中有一系列疯狂的发现，但大多数人都不会谈论，因为这对神经科学家来说非常不方便。
We're all familiar with the enriched environment thing, where you give rats a bunch of toys or mice a bunch of toys, or monkeys a bunch of toys, and the idea would be if you give kids a bunch of toys or listening to Mozart, that their brains will develop more.
我们都熟悉丰富的环境，你给老鼠一堆玩具，或者给老鼠一堆玩具，或者给猴子一堆玩具，这个想法是，如果你给孩子一堆玩具或听莫扎特，他们的大脑就会发育得更多。
You see more physical connections, you see improved cognition, et cetera.
你会看到更多的物理联系，你会看到认知能力的提高等等。
A really smart guy down at University of California, Irvine, Ron Frostig, did an experiment where he said, "Maybe this is all backwards.
加州大学欧文分校的一位非常聪明的人罗恩·弗罗斯蒂格（Ron Frostig）做了一个实验，他说：“也许这一切都是倒退的。
Maybe the normal cages they live in without all these toys are just deprived environments."
也许它们生活的普通笼子没有这些玩具，只是一个贫困的环境。”
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it turns out that's probably the case.
事实证明情况很可能就是这样。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So all this enriched environment stuff, it's not that it's BS, it's just that the experimental conditions were so deprived that what you had was most animals just deprived in a certain way, then you give them what they needed naturally, and all of a sudden you saw more connections, et cetera.
所以所有这些丰富的环境的东西，并不是说这是废话，只是实验条件是如此的匮乏，以至于大多数动物只是以某种方式被剥夺了，然后你给了它们自然需要的东西，突然间你看到了更多的联系，等等。
If we applied that to meditation, something that we think of as kind of an enriched mental environment, okay, I'm going to now do this exercise, I'm going to do five minutes a day, or 10 or 20.
如果我们将其应用到冥想中，我们认为冥想是一种丰富的心理环境，好吧，我现在要做这个练习，我每天做五分钟，或者十到二十分钟。
We think of it as kind of adding exercise, but riding a treadmill, doing resistance training, we used to just farm and go get water and do things.
我们认为这是一种增加锻炼的方式，但骑跑步机，进行阻力训练，我们过去只是种田，去取水和做事。
So in some sense all of that is a replacement for a quote unquote deprived environment.
因此，从某种意义上说，所有这些都是引用非引用剥夺环境的替代品。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So is it possible that what you're describing is not something that people developed over time , but rather something that was core to our experience as humans and that the brain needed, but that with the advent of technologies and busyness or whatever, we've gotten away from?
那么，你所描述的东西是否有可能不是人们随着时间的推移而发展起来的东西，而是我们作为人类的经验的核心和大脑所需要的东西，但随着技术和忙碌或其他什么的出现，我们已经摆脱了它？
And so when you talk about doing five or 10 or 20 minutes of meditation a day and seeing all these health effects, what we're doing is we're actually just putting back what needed to be there in the first place.
因此，当你谈论每天进行 5、10 或 20 分钟的冥想并看到所有这些健康影响时，我们所做的实际上只是把最初需要的东西放回去。
This is like the equivalent of you getting your 30 minutes more sleep because alarm clocks weren't really a thing-
这相当于你多睡了 30 分钟，因为闹钟其实并不是什么东西——
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
2,000 years ago.
2000年前。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Does that make sense?
这有道理吗？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
It makes sense.
这是有道理的。
And I think that there's an element of truth to it, but I also think that there's some additional discussion that we should have about it and dialogue.
我认为它有一定的道理，但我也认为我们应该对此进行一些额外的讨论和对话。
So, first of all, these practices have been around for 2,500 years or more.
首先，这些做法已经存在了 2500 年或更长时间。
It's not like they've been invented in the modern era to deal with the separation that has occurred between humans and the natural world that is a distinctly modern kind of invention.
它们并不是在现代发明的，是为了解决人类与自然世界之间发生的分离，这是一种明显的现代发明。
So that's one thing.
所以这是一回事。
The second thing is that, yes, I agree with you that the characteristics that we're talking about as traits that are outcomes of these practices, there are many ways to get there.
第二件事是，是的，我同意你的观点，我们所说的特征是这些实践的结果，有很多方法可以实现。
And there are probably natural ways to get there that don't require meditation.
并且可能有不需要冥想的自然方法可以到达那里。
And in fact, when we, in our early days, we interviewed these practitioners around Dharamsala, India, who were practitioners that the Dalai Lama referred us to, who are spending 30 years in retreat.
事实上，当我们早期采访印度达兰萨拉周围的这些修炼者时，他们就是达赖喇嘛向我们介绍的修炼者，他们已经闭关了30年。
They're called hermit monks, and you have to hike for three hours to find their cave.
他们被称为隐士，你必须徒步三个小时才能找到他们的洞穴。
And we interviewed these people.
我们采访了这些人。
They told us, "Well, I need to meditate, but many others are just born or they just naturally have these qualities.
他们告诉我们，“嗯，我需要冥想，但许多其他人刚刚出生，或者他们天生就有这些品质。
They don't need to meditate as much as me.
他们不需要像我一样冥想。
I'm just a simple, poor monk who really needs to do this because I'm inferior to those people," if you will.
我只是一个简单的穷和尚，我确实需要这样做，因为我不如那些人，”如果你愿意的话。
And it's kind of modesty, but also, there may be some truth to that.
这是一种谦虚，但也可能有一些道理。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
And so I think that that is real, but I also think that the qualities, like for example, kindness, I believe, and this is the subject of this new book that I wrote with my colleague, Courtland Dahl, "Born to Flourish," qualities like kindness are innate.
所以我认为这是真实的，但我也认为像善良这样的品质，我相信，这就是我和我的同事考特兰·达尔合写的这本新书的主题，《生来蓬勃发展》，像善良这样的品质是与生俱来的。
They're part of our innate repertoire.
它们是我们与生俱来的技能的一部分。
But in order for them to be expressed, they require nurturing.
但为了让它们得以表达，它们需要培育。
And it's very similar to the way scientists talk about language.
这与科学家谈论语言的方式非常相似。
Language is innate, I think most scientists would agree with that, but we know that there have been case studies, for example, of feral children who were raised in the wild, and they don't develop normal language.
语言是与生俱来的，我想大多数科学家都会同意这一点，但我们知道有一些案例研究，例如，在野外长大的野孩子，他们没有发展出正常的语言。
So in order for the language to develop normally, it requires nurturing of some kind.
所以为了语言的正常发展，需要某种培育。
And kindness is the same thing.
善良也是一样的。
It requires nurturing in order for it to be expressed.
它需要培育才能表达出来。
And similarly for other qualities that we're cultivating when we meditate, I think those qualities are innate, but they require nurturing.
同样，对于我们在冥想时培养的其他品质，我认为这些品质是与生俱来的，但它们需要培养。
And in certain cases, I think that in order for those qualities to really be expressed at high levels, if you will, intentional nurturing may be required for at least the vast majority of people.
在某些情况下，我认为，为了真正在高水平上表达这些品质，如果你愿意的话，至少对绝大多数人来说可能需要有意识的培养。
There may be statistically very rare people who emerge who are like this from the start, for whatever reason.
从统计数据来看，无论出于何种原因，从一开始就这样的人可能非常罕见。
But for most of us, I think this kind of nurturing is important.
但对于我们大多数人来说，我认为这种培养很重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 for nearly 15 years now.
你们很多人都知道，我服用 AG1 已有近 15 年了。
I discovered it way back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since.
我早在 2012 年就发现了它，那时我还没有播客，从那时起我就每天都在听它。
The reason I started taking it, and the reason I still take it, is because AG1 is, to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market.
我开始服用它的原因，以及我仍然服用它的原因，是因为据我所知，AG1是市场上质量最高、最全面的基础营养补充剂。
It combines vitamins, minerals, prebiotics, probiotics, and adaptogens into a single scoop that's easy to drink and it tastes great.
它将维生素、矿物质、益生元、益生菌和适应原结合到一勺中，易于饮用，味道极佳。
It's designed to support things like gut health, immune health, and overall energy, and it does so by helping to fill any gaps you might have in your daily nutrition.
它旨在支持肠道健康、免疫健康和整体能量等，并通过帮助填补您日常营养中可能存在的任何缺口来实现这一目标。
Now, of course, everyone should strive to eat nutritious whole foods.
当然，现在每个人都应该努力吃有营养的天然食品。
I certainly do that every day.
我当然每天都这样做。
But I'm often asked, if you could take just one supplement, what would that supplement be?
但我经常被问到，如果您只能服用一种补充剂，那么该补充剂会是什么？
And my answer is always AG1, because it has just been so critical to supporting all aspects of my physical health, mental health, and performance.
我的答案始终是 AG1，因为它对于支持我的身体健康、心理健康和表现的各个方面都非常重要。
I know this from my own experience with AG1, and I continually hear this from other people who use AG1 daily.
我从自己使用 AG1 的经验中了解到这一点，并且我不断从其他每天使用 AG1 的人那里听到这一点。
If you would like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 以获得特别优惠。
For a limited time, AG1 is giving away six free travel packs of AG1 and a bottle of vitamin D3+K2 with your subscription.
限时订阅后，AG1 将赠送 6 个免费 AG1 旅行包和一瓶维生素 D3+K2。
Again, that's drinkag1, with the numeral one, .com/huberman to get six free travel packs and a bottle of vitamin D3+K2 with your subscription.
再次强调，这是 Drinkag1，通过数字 1 .com/huberman 订阅即可获得六个免费旅行包和一瓶维生素 D3+K2。
Why do you think it is that so many people find it challenging to maintain a meditation practice?
您认为为什么这么多人发现维持冥想练习具有挑战性？
Five minutes a day is nothing.
每天五分钟不算什么。
Ten minutes a day is barely anything, even for the very busiest of person.
即使对于最忙碌的人来说，每天十分钟也算不了什么。
And the positive effects that you describe, and we could also layer in reduced stress, anxiety, lower resting heart rate, increased feelings of wellbeing, and on and on.
您所描述的积极影响，我们还可以减轻压力、焦虑、降低静息心率、增加幸福感等等。
There are just so many great studies now, including, like you said, double-blind trials.
现在有很多伟大的研究，包括，就像你说的，双盲试验。
It's incredible.
太不可思议了。
So why do you think it's so hard for people to maintain this practice of just saying, "Okay, you know what?
那么你认为为什么人们很难维持这种只说“好吧，你知道吗？
I'm going to just go into this atypical state.
我将进入这种非典型状态。
It's not being stimulated by anything in my environment.
它没有受到我环境中任何东西的刺激。
I have to do this internally.
我必须在内部做这件事。
There aren't gyms to go to for this." There are breathwork classes and things like that, but people don't tend to stick to it.
没有健身房可以去练习这个。”有呼吸练习之类的课程，但人们往往不会坚持下去。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's the challenge.
这就是挑战。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
So I do have a theory about it, which I'll share.
所以我确实有一个关于它的理论，我将与大家分享。
But before I do that, let me just say that I often use the analogy of brushing our teeth.
但在此之前，我想先说一下，我经常用刷牙来比喻。
When humans first evolved on this planet, none of us were brushing our teeth, and somehow, a very large swath of humanity has learned to brush their teeth every day.
当人类第一次在这个星球上进化时，我们没有人刷牙，但不知何故，很大一部分人类已经学会了每天刷牙。
It's not part of our genome.
它不是我们基因组的一部分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think most people brush their teeth so that their breath isn't bad.
我认为大多数人都会刷牙，这样口气就不难闻了。
I think they like the idea that their teeth look cleaner and they get less gum disease, et cetera, but all the scary stuff is actually very ineffective public health messaging.
我认为他们喜欢这样的想法：他们的牙齿看起来更干净，牙龈疾病更少，等等，但所有可怕的东西实际上都是非常无效的公共卫生信息。
That's my guess.
这是我的猜测。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So actually, that's quite interesting-
事实上，这很有趣——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
...
...
that view.
那个观点。
But getting back to your question, why do people find it so hard?
但回到你的问题，为什么人们觉得这么难？
So there was a study published in "Science" not too long ago by a group of social psychologists.
不久前，一群社会心理学家在《科学》杂志上发表了一项研究。
And it was a study of, quote, "boredom." And what they did essentially in this study, the core of it was they took people into the lab and they said, "We had a little problem and you guys are going to have to wait for 15 or 20 minutes before the experiment starts while we fix some piece of equipment." And they were in a waiting room.
这是对“无聊”的研究。他们在这项研究中基本上做了什么，其核心是他们带人们进入实验室，他们说，“我们遇到了一点问题，你们必须在实验开始前等待 15 或 20 分钟，同时我们会修理一些设备。”他们在候诊室里。
There were ...
有...
magazines and books around.
周围的杂志和书籍。
And they also said that social psychologists are really good at creating these scenarios.
他们还表示，社会心理学家非常擅长创造这些场景。
And so another experimenter came in and said they're from another research group, and they understand that they have to wait a little while, and we have another experiment that you can do in the meantime, and it involves receiving electric shocks.
于是另一位实验者进来并说他们来自另一个研究小组，他们知道他们必须等待一段时间，我们还有另一个实验你可以同时做，它涉及接受电击。
And of course, it's completely voluntary.
当然，这完全是自愿的。
You are free to participate or not.
你可以自由地参加或不参加。
And the bottom line is that this is particularly male undergraduates in the United States prefer to shock themselves than to sit alone and not do anything.
最重要的是，美国的男大学生更喜欢让自己震惊，而不是独自坐着什么也不做。
It's a robust finding.
这是一个强有力的发现。
People could not sit without doing something is the bottom line.
人们不能坐以待毙，这是底线。
And the reason I think is that once we actually begin to inspect our own minds, most people are frightened at the chaos that they see.
我认为原因是，一旦我们真正开始审视自己的思想，大多数人都会对他们所看到的混乱感到害怕。
One of the things we found when we look in a very granular way is that when people start to meditate, we see a statistically reliable increase in anxiety in the first week.
当我们以非常细致的方式观察时，我们发现的一件事是，当人们开始冥想时，我们发现第一周的焦虑感在统计上可靠地增加。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
And that's often when people say, "I can't do this.
这时候人们常常会说：“我做不到。
It's making me crazy." And what we tell them is, "You're doing exactly the right thing.
这让我发疯。”我们告诉他们的是，“你们做的事情完全正确。
You're noticing the chaos in your own mind."
你注意到自己头脑中的混乱。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is the soreness that comes from a new exercise program.
这是新的锻炼计划带来的酸痛。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But people know to associate the soreness with, okay, the exercise was effective.
但人们知道将酸痛与“好吧，锻炼是有效的”联系起来。
It's going to lead to an adaptation.
这将导致适应。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
And we haven't changed the narrative yet about this.
我们还没有改变对此的叙述。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
But what we're trying to, where we say, "This is great that you're feeling anxious."
但我们正在努力做到的，我们会说：“你感到焦虑真是太好了。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
"It's exactly what you should be feeling."
“这正是你应该有的感觉。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Forgive me.
请原谅我。
I'm doing all this in real-time, so if I'm slow, there's a reason.
我正在实时完成所有这些工作，所以如果我很慢，那是有原因的。
The analogy to exercise feels ever more important now because thankfully, the narrative has been embedded in people's minds that you lift objects, or you cycle or run or row or swim, et cetera, to stimulate an adaptation.
现在，与锻炼的类比感觉变得更加重要，因为值得庆幸的是，这样的叙述已经根植于人们的脑海中：你举起物体，或者骑自行车、跑步、划船或游泳等等，以刺激适应。
I think that the exercise scientists, the fields of health and wellness, whatever it is, has been very effective in getting the message out that the burn in your muscles is the thing that's going to lead to an easier run the next time.
我认为运动科学家、健康和保健领域，无论是什么领域，都非常有效地传达了这样的信息：肌肉的燃烧会让你下次跑步变得更轻松。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
To more fitness, more longevity, more wellbeing, et cetera.
为了更健康、更长寿、更幸福等等。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it's discomfort in the moment.
但此刻就是不舒服。
For a long while now, I've been trying to convince people, because it's true, that the agitation that one feels trying to solve a problem or read a hard page or passage in a book, the one that you have to return to three times, that you can't wrap your head around, that that agitation is the stimulus for neuroplasticity.
很长一段时间以来，我一直在试图说服人们，因为确实如此，人们在试图解决问题或阅读书中的硬页面或段落时感到的激动，你必须返回三遍，你无法集中注意力，这种激动是神经可塑性的刺激。
If you could just breeze right through it, the brain has no reason to change.
如果你能轻松地通过它，大脑就没有理由改变。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not stimulated to change.
它没有被刺激去改变。
It can, after all, just do the thing you're trying to do.
毕竟，它可以做你想做的事情。
So it becomes sort of a duh when you look at exercise, or you look at cognitive development.
因此，当你看待锻炼或认知发展时，它就变成了一种废话。
But somehow, when it comes to meditation, maybe we can accomplish this today.
但不知怎的，当谈到冥想时，也许我们今天就能做到这一点。
I think you're doing this for us.
我认为你这样做是为了我们。
For me, just knowing that in the first week, anxiety's going to go up, but that's the equivalent of lactate accumulating-
对我来说，只知道在第一周，焦虑感会上升，但这相当于乳酸的积累——
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Exactly
正是如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the muscles of-
在肌肉中-
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
It's the lactate of the mind.
这是心灵的乳酸。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The burn.
烧伤。
It's the lactate of the mind.
这是心灵的乳酸。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Perfect.
完美的。
I believe that languaging and messaging is so critical to get people to adopt practices that require this discomfort adaptation loop that needs to be repeated over time.
我相信，语言和信息传递对于让人们采取需要这种不舒服的适应循环的做法非常重要，而且这种循环需要随着时间的推移而重复。
I love that.
我喜欢那个。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I knew we'd get someplace in that one.
我知道我们会在其中占有一席之地。
Thanks to you.
谢谢你。
So glad you're here.
很高兴你在这里。
So week one, five minutes a day.
所以第一周，每天五分钟。
Expect and embrace the anxiety.
期待并拥抱焦虑。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is it the thing that's going to produce the adaptation?
它是产生适应的东西吗？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
I think it's contributing to it, yes.
我认为这对此有所贡献，是的。
And it's also being aware of the anxiety without being hijacked by the anxiety, without being lost in the anxiety.
它还能够意识到焦虑，而不被焦虑劫持，而不迷失在焦虑中。
So being able to see the anxiety as it's arising.
因此能够看到焦虑的产生。
This is training in meta-awareness.
这是元意识的训练。
Meta-awareness is super important.
元意识非常重要。
I actually think meta-awareness is a necessary prerequisite for any kind of human transformation, mental transformation.
事实上，我认为元意识是任何人类转变、精神转变的必要先决条件。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could you define it for us?
您能为我们定义一下吗？
Tell us a bit more about it.
告诉我们更多相关信息。
I'm very curious.
我很好奇。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So I would say meta-awareness is the faculty of knowing what our minds are doing.
所以我想说元意识是了解我们的思想在做什么的能力。
And to some listeners, that may sound a little strange, but how many of you have had the experience of reading a book where you might be reading each word on a page, and you read one page, a second page, and after a few minutes, you have no idea what you've just read.
对于一些听众来说，这可能听起来有点奇怪，但是你们中有多少人有过阅读一本书的经历，您可能会阅读一页上的每个单词，然后您读一页，第二页，几分钟后，您不知道自己刚刚读了什么。
Your mind is lost.
你的心迷失了。
It's somewhere else.
它在别的地方。
But then you wake up.
但后来你醒了。
The moment you wake up is a moment of meta-awareness, and it turns out that that's a trainable skill.
你醒来的那一刻就是元意识的时刻，事实证明这是一项可以训练的技能。
And that is one of the really important prerequisites for all other forms of training, of mental training.
这是所有其他形式的训练、心理训练的真正重要的先决条件之一。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do we know where this meta-awareness resides in the brain?
我们知道这种元意识位于大脑的哪个位置吗？
Is it prefrontal cortex?
是前额皮质吗？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
It's a network of prefrontal cortex, anterior cingulate, insula.
它是一个由前额皮质、前扣带皮层、岛叶组成的网络。
I think those are all structures that are participating in meta-awareness.
我认为这些都是参与元意识的结构。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's interesting because I feel like As we were discussing earlier, people crave forgetting about themselves and just being in experience.
这很有趣，因为我觉得正如我们之前讨论的那样，人们渴望忘记自己，只是沉浸在体验中。
It's just such a powerfully, and I think, positive, seductive thing.
我认为这是一件非常强大、积极、诱人的事情。
I often think about at a party, dancing.
我经常想起在聚会上跳舞。
Like people who can just dance and enjoy themselves versus people who are self-conscious about how they're dancing, even people who are good at dancing.
就像那些只会跳舞并享受自己的人与那些对自己如何跳舞有自我意识的人一样，即使是擅长跳舞的人。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
You can be meta-aware without being awkwardly self-conscious, if you will.
如果你愿意的话，你可以拥有元意识，而不会感到尴尬的自我意识。
So you talked earlier about flow.
所以你之前谈到了心流。
I didn't jump in then, but flow can occur with or without meta-awareness.
我当时没有介入，但心流可以在有或没有元意识的情况下发生。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hm.
嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
A lot of flow, I think, occurs without meta-awareness.
我认为，很多心流都是在没有元意识的情况下发生的。
So Csikszentmihalyi, who first studied flow, he studied rock climbers.
因此，首先研究流动的奇克森特米哈伊（Csikszentmihalyi）研究了攀岩者。
And like a rock climber who is-- Think about this.
就像一个攀岩者一样——想一想。
Why do people do stuff like rock climbing?
人们为什么要做攀岩这样的事情？
I think that the reason why people do stuff like that is to produce this state of flow where most of those kinds of states of flow, I think, are states of flow without meta-awareness, where you're completely absorbed in the activity.
我认为人们做这样的事情的原因是为了产生这种心流状态，我认为大多数这种心流状态都是没有元意识的心流状态，在这种状态下你完全沉浸在活动中。
And for a rock climber, if there's even a momentary lapse in attention, it could be potentially lethal.
对于攀岩者来说，即使是短暂的注意力不集中，也可能是致命的。
And so by arranging one's physical environment in that way, you are basically forcing the default mode to be suppressed.
因此，通过以这种方式安排一个人的物理环境，您基本上是在强制抑制默认模式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
And the default mode is a mode that we know is associated with a lot of self-referential thought.
我们知道，默认模式是一种与很多自我参照思想相关的模式。
And self-referential thought often is anxiety-provoking.
自我参照的想法常常会引起焦虑。
And so this is a way to transiently suppress the default mode.
所以这是一种暂时抑制默认模式的方法。
But flow can also occur with meta-awareness.
但心流也可以通过元意识发生。
And it doesn't diminish the quality of the flow.
而且它不会降低流量的质量。
And one analogy that we can use is in a movie theater.
我们可以使用的一个类比是在电影院。
Viewers have had the experience of being in a movie theater.
观众有过身临电影院的体验。
And I'm sure people have had the experience of being in a movie theater where you're so engrossed in the movie that you may actually, you're not aware that you're in a theater.
我相信人们都有过在电影院里的经历，你全神贯注于电影，以至于你实际上可能没有意识到自己是在电影院里。
And you may not be even aware that you're watching a movie.
您甚至可能没有意识到自己正在看电影。
You are totally absorbed in the plot.
你完全沉浸在情节中。
And we've actually come up with a term to define that, and we call it experiential fusion, where you're fused with the experience.
我们实际上已经想出了一个术语来定义这一点，我们称之为体验融合，即你与体验融合在一起。
And that is a kind of the analogous to flow without meta-awareness.
这类似于没有元意识的流动。
But imagine being in the movie theater where your attention is riveted and there's absolutely no lapse in attention, but in the kind of penumbra of awareness, you are aware you're in a movie theater.
但想象一下，在电影院里，你的注意力全被吸引住了，绝对不会有注意力分散，但在意识的半影中，你知道自己在电影院里。
You're aware that you're watching a movie.
你知道你正在看一部电影。
But that doesn't diminish the quality of your attention.
但这并不会降低你注意力的质量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I want to ask about this thing about chaos, noticing the chaos of one's mind, because you said that sort of sits at the seat of the anxiety that people will feel when they first start to meditate.
我想问关于混乱的问题，注意到一个人心灵的混乱，因为你说这就是人们第一次开始冥想时会感到的焦虑的根源。
Now everyone knows in the Richie meditation to push through the first week.
现在大家都知道在里奇冥想中要熬过第一周了。
Expect the lactate of the mind, push through it.
期待心灵的乳酸，推动它。
I love that so much.
我非常喜欢这个。
Thank you.
谢谢。
The idea that the mind is chaotic and getting comfortable with that and not reacting to it, not feeling like we have to get away from it.
思想是混乱的，对此感到舒服，而不是对其做出反应，而不是感觉我们必须摆脱它。
We've heard this before, but I think it's somewhat of a novel concept to me to think that a goal of meditation is to be able to see that and sit with it, not necessarily eradicate it.
我们以前听说过这个，但我认为冥想的目标是能够看到它并与之相处，而不一定要根除它，这对我来说有点新奇。
I think you said you know the Dalai Lama.
我想你说过你认识达赖喇嘛。
I think for most of us, we see the Dalai Lama and other monks in robes, and you say he sleeps nine hours per night and he's meditating four hours per day, and we think, "All right, he looks very blissed out, and that's great for them." Do you think he has chaos in his mind?
我想对于我们大多数人来说，我们看到达赖喇嘛和其他穿着袈裟的僧侣，你说他每晚睡九个小时，每天冥想四个小时，我们会想，“好吧，他看起来很幸福，这对他们来说很好。”你觉得他脑子里乱七八糟吗？
Is the idea that extreme meditators or even well-practitioned meditators are free of the chaos, or that they're just comfortable with the chaos?
极端冥想者甚至训练有素的冥想者是否可以摆脱混乱，或者他们只是对混乱感到满意？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
I would say that it's a developmental process that changes longitudinally.
我想说这是一个纵向变化的发展过程。
So initially, there's a lot of chaos, and I think it gradually subsides.
所以一开始有很多混乱，我认为它会逐渐平息。
I don't think it's like a step function.
我不认为这就像阶跃函数。
I think it really occurs gradually over time, and the chaos just sort of naturally diminishes.
我认为这确实是随着时间的推移逐渐发生的，混乱自然就会减少。
But that's a long-term process.
但这是一个长期的过程。
And I think for most of us, there's always going to be some chaos.
我认为对于我们大多数人来说，总会有一些混乱。
But part of the chaos also is, I think, a source of creativity.
但我认为，混乱的一部分也是创造力的源泉。
And when we talk about meta-awareness and awareness of all that's going on in our mind, I often give my students the permission to, even if they're not meditators, to just spend a couple hours a week inspecting your mind.
当我们谈论元意识和对我们头脑中正在发生的一切的意识时，我经常允许我的学生，即使他们不是冥想者，每周花几个小时检查你的思想。
Just inspect your mind.
只要检查一下你的思想。
Pay attention to what's going on in your mind.
注意你脑子里在想什么。
Don't do stuff outside.
不要在外面做事。
And if you come up with some interesting thought, write a little note to yourself as you're doing this.
如果您想到了一些有趣的想法，请在执行此操作时给自己写一个小便条。
Not a lot of words, but just a note to remind you when you're finished with this session.
没有太多的文字，只是在您完成本次会议时提醒您的注释。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
And I have the conviction that there's a lot of creative work that humans do on a regular basis that's kind of like dreams.
我坚信，人类经常做很多创造性的工作，就像梦想一样。
Most people don't remember their dreams.
大多数人不记得自己的梦想。
But they occur reliably.
但它们确实会发生。
And I think that there's a lot of creative thought that occurs on a regular basis, but we just don't pay attention to it, and we forget it, just like we forget our dreams.
我认为有很多创造性的想法经常出现，但我们只是不注意它，然后我们就忘记了它，就像我们忘记了我们的梦想一样。
But if we have the invitation to really inspect our mind in that way, I think this chaos actually often contains the seat of real creative insight that potentially could be valuable.
但如果我们受邀以这种方式真正审视我们的思想，我认为这种混乱实际上往往包含着真正的创造性洞察力，而这种洞察力可能是有价值的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I do too.
我也是。
I wake up every morning with at least one idea from the transition from sleep to waking.
每天早上醒来，从睡眠到醒来的过程中，我至少会产生一个想法。
Sometimes it's from a dream.
有时是从梦中来的。
I often will record my dreams as voice memos.
我经常将我的梦想记录为语音备忘录。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
After I die, if somebody ever finds these voice memos, they're so crazy.
我死后，如果有人发现这些语音备忘录，他们一定会疯的。
Every once in a while, I'll try and listen to one.
每隔一段时间，我就会尝试听一听。
I'm like, "This is crazy." But I don't want to forget things, and sometimes I don't want to wake up and turn the lights on, and I'll go back to sleep.
我想，“这太疯狂了。”但我不想忘记事情，有时我不想醒来开灯，然后我就会回去睡觉。
And so I'll just record something in the voice memo, sometimes write it down.
所以我只会在语音备忘录中记录一些东西，有时把它写下来。
I think there's so much learning to be had from what's coming up from the unconscious mind-
我认为从潜意识中产生的东西可以学到很多东西——
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in dreams.
在梦中。
But also just having a mode of capture during the day, some way to just capture the things that spring to mind.
但也只是在白天有一种捕捉模式，某种方式来捕捉脑海中浮现的事物。
The great Joe Strummer from The Clash, he said this.
《冲突》中伟大的乔·斯特鲁默说过这样的话。
He said, "If you are walking along and an idea comes to mind, you have to write it down because you think you'll remember it later, but you will remember it in a form that is not nearly as potent."
他说：“如果你在走路时想到一个想法，你必须把它写下来，因为你认为你以后会记住它，但你会以一种不太有效的形式记住它。”
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He said something like that.
他说了类似的话。
That this is the mind throwing you ideas, and you have to capture them.
这是头脑向你抛出的想法，你必须捕捉它们。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
I love that.
我喜欢那个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
And I think it's wise advice.
我认为这是明智的建议。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Friends of mine who are songwriters, poets, they do this all the time.
我的朋友们都是作曲家、诗人，他们一直这样做。
They're constantly writing things down that they may or may not develop something from, but they understand that there's information being thrown up to the surface for them.
他们不断地写下一些东西，他们可能会或可能不会从中发展出一些东西，但他们知道有一些信息被抛到了表面。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And if you don't write it down or capture it in some other way, it goes.
如果你不把它写下来或以其他方式捕捉它，它就会消失。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's evanescent.
它转瞬即逝。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
I actually have, this may seem contrary to views of how meditation is done, but when I meditate every morning, I actually have a little notepad by my cushion.
我确实有，这似乎与冥想如何进行的观点相反，但当我每天早上冥想时，我的坐垫旁实际上有一个小记事本。
And occasionally, I don't do this every session, but maybe twice a week, I'll actually write down something during the meditation, one or two words, just to remind me, because something comes up in my practice, maybe an idea, and I want to remember it.
有时，我不会每次都这样做，但可能每周两次，我实际上会在冥想期间写下一些东西，一两个词，只是为了提醒我，因为在我的练习中出现了一些东西，也许是一个想法，我想记住它。
And I know also that I won't remember it after in the same richness.
我也知道我不会再以同样丰富的方式记住它。
And so I'll just jot it down and then go back to my practice.
所以我会把它记下来，然后回到我的练习中。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is meditation something that kids can do and benefit from?
冥想是孩子们可以做并从中受益的事情吗？
Has that been studied in a formal way?
这是否已被正式研究过？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yes, it's been studied.
是的，已经研究过了。
We actually developed what we've called a mindfulness-based kindness curriculum for preschool kids.
实际上，我们为学龄前儿童开发了所谓的基于正念的善意课程。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Preschool?
学前班？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Preschool.
学前班。
And we've actually published a randomized control trial in a public school system of this curriculum, and the curriculum is available freely on our website in both English and Spanish.
实际上，我们已经在公立学校系统中发布了该课程的随机对照试验，并且该课程可以在我们的网站上免费获得英语和西班牙语版本。
So if any teachers are out there or you know teachers and want to use it, please feel free to download it and see how it is.
因此，如果有老师或者您认识老师并且想要使用它，请随时下载并看看效果如何。
But yeah, so it looks very different.
但是，是的，所以它看起来很不同。
So for example, what we do with a three-year-old, one of the exercises that they love is we ring a bell in a classroom, and we have them listen, tell them, "Listen to the sound, and as soon as you no longer hear sound, raise your hand." And it's amazing to see this because you can get 25 three and four-year-olds sitting perfectly still for around 10 seconds.
举例来说，我们对一个三岁的孩子所做的，他们喜欢的练习之一是我们在教室里按铃，我们让他们听，告诉他们，“听声音，一旦你不再听到声音，就举手。”看到这一现象真是太神奇了，因为你可以让 25 个三岁和四岁的孩子一动不动地坐着大约 10 秒钟。
But they could taste it.
但他们可以尝到它的味道。
There's a palpable sense of quiet in that 10 seconds, and then they all raise their hand excitedly.
在那 10 秒钟内，有一种明显的安静感，然后他们都兴奋地举起了手。
But they can really taste it.
但他们确实能尝到它的味道。
And so I do think it's possible.
所以我确实认为这是可能的。
The other thing is, and this is something really important, there's something we've discovered empirically recently, which is that flourishing is infectious.
The other thing is, and this is something really important, there's something we've discovered empirically recently, which is that flourishing is infectious.
It's contagious.
它具有传染性。
Flourishing is contagious.
繁荣是具有传染性的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can you explain what that means and how you study that?
你能解释一下这意味着什么以及你是如何研究它的吗？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
In the example of, you asked about meditating in kids, and the reason I'm bringing it up in this context is one of the best things I think a parent can do for a kid is not to have the kid meditate, but meditate yourself, and just-
In the example of, you asked about meditating in kids, and the reason I'm bringing it up in this context is one of the best things I think a parent can do for a kid is not to have the kid meditate, but meditate yourself, and just-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
...
...
be with the child and be fully present, be connected, and really show up in that way, and you will osmotically transmit through your demeanor, and your interaction.
和孩子在一起，全身心投入，保持联系，并以这种方式真正表现出来，你会通过你的举止和互动渗透地传递信息。
You will transmit these qualities to the child in a completely implicit way.
你将以一种完全隐性的方式将这些品质传递给孩子。
And that's what we mean when we say flourishing is contagious.
这就是我们说繁荣具有传染性的意思。
But how we studied it, so let me actually share, this is a finding that we're super excited about, and it's not yet published, but the paper is just under review.
But how we studied it, so let me actually share, this is a finding that we're super excited about, and it's not yet published, but the paper is just under review.
So one of the things we're deeply interested in these days is how can we scale human flourishing?
因此，我们现在非常感兴趣的事情之一是我们如何才能扩大人类的繁荣？
So we're doing this kind of sector by sector, and one sector that we're doing a lot of work with is educators.
因此，我们正在逐个部门开展此类工作，而我们正在开展大量工作的一个部门就是教育工作者。
And educators around the world, and particularly in the US, but we've done this in Mexico too, so it's not just US-based, but they're super stressed, they're not well-paid and all of that.
And educators around the world, and particularly in the US, but we've done this in Mexico too, so it's not just US-based, but they're super stressed, they're not well-paid and all of that.
So we did a study with public school educators in Louisville, Kentucky.
因此，我们与肯塔基州路易斯维尔的公立学校教育工作者进行了一项研究。
And there are many reasons why we went to Louisville, but Louisville is a complicated school system.
我们去路易斯维尔的原因有很多，但路易斯维尔是一个复杂的学校系统。
It's diverse, there are a lot of problems in it, and it's a big urban school district, the Jefferson County Public School District in Louisville.
它是多元化的，存在很多问题，而且它是一个大城市学区，路易斯维尔的杰斐逊县公立学区。
And we did a randomized control trial with 832 educators in Louisville.
我们对路易斯维尔的 832 名教育工作者进行了一项随机对照试验。
And we had them use our Healthy Minds program, which is a digital offering, which is freely available as the Healthy Minds program, where we had them cultivate four key pillars of wellbeing.
我们让他们使用我们的健康思想计划，这是一个数字产品，可以作为健康思想计划免费提供，我们让他们培养幸福的四个关键支柱。
awareness, connection, insight, and purpose.
意识、联系、洞察力和目的。
We can take a deeper dive into each of those after.
之后我们可以更深入地研究每一个。
But they practiced for around five minutes a day.
但他们每天练习大约五分钟。
The average was a little less than five minutes a day over the course of 28 days.
在 28 天的时间里，平均每天花费不到 5 分钟。
And we measured standard outcomes like depression and anxiety and stress and measures of flourishing.
我们测量了抑郁、焦虑、压力等标准结果以及繁荣程度的衡量标准。
And we find what we found in other studies, which is that depression and anxiety and stress went down, and measures of well-being and flourishing went up.
我们发现，我们在其他研究中发现的情况是，抑郁、焦虑和压力有所下降，而幸福感和繁荣程度则有所上升。
But the real kicker is that we, by prior agreement, had access to the student-level data in the school system.
但真正令人兴奋的是，根据事先协议，我们可以访问学校系统中的学生级别数据。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
So we were able to look at the performance of the students who were taught by teachers randomly assigned to the well-being training, and we compared them to students who were taught by teachers randomly assigned to a control group.
因此，我们能够观察由随机分配到幸福训练的教师所教的学生的表现，并将他们与随机分配到对照组的教师所教的学生进行比较。
The students had no idea that there was any research going on.
学生们不知道正在进行任何研究。
And what we found is that on standardized tests, this is in middle school children, and the sample size for the students was around 13,000.
我们发现，在标准化测试中，这是针对中学生的，学生的样本量约为 13,000 人。
And what we found is that the standardized math scores of the students who were taught by teachers randomly assigned to the well-being training was significantly greater than the scores of the students who were taught by teachers randomly assigned to the control group.
我们发现，随机分配到幸福训练组的教师所教的学生的标准化数学成绩显着高于随机分配到对照组的教师所教的学生的分数。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Same curriculum.
相同的课程。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Identical.
相同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what do you think is being transmitted there?
那么你认为那里正在传输什么？
Is it that the teachers are calmer, therefore the students are calmer?
是不是老师冷静了，学生就冷静了？
Is it that the teachers are calmer, therefore they're clearer, so the students are...
是不是老师比较冷静，所以思路比较清晰，所以学生...
There are a lot of variables.
有很多变数。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
A lot of variables.
很多变数。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we don't need to isolate them.
我们不需要隔离他们。
We're not trying to do pharmacology here.
我们并不是想在这里做药理学。
But what do you think could be going on?
但你认为会发生什么？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah, I think everything you said is likely to be going on.
是的，我认为你所说的一切都可能发生。
I think the teachers are likely calmer.
我想老师们可能会比较冷静。
They're more connected.
他们的联系更加紧密。
And what we know is that, it was interesting because we looked at reading scores, and the data for the standardized reading measure was in the same direction, but it wasn't as robust.
And what we know is that, it was interesting because we looked at reading scores, and the data for the standardized reading measure was in the same direction, but it wasn't as robust.
The biggest signal was in math scores.
最大的信号是数学成绩。
And we know that math performance is degraded by stress more than reading performance in this age group.
我们知道，在这个年龄段，压力对数学成绩的影响比阅读成绩更严重。
And so it could be is something as simple as the kids who were taught by teachers that went through the well-being training are simply calmer and less stressed when they take the exam.
因此，事情可能很简单，因为接受过幸福培训的老师教的孩子在参加考试时更加平静，压力也更小。
And so their true competence is more likely to be reflected in the test, and not have it degraded by this kind of added stress and anxiety.
And so their true competence is more likely to be reflected in the test, and not have it degraded by this kind of added stress and anxiety.
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
So this is an illustration that flourishing is contagious in this way.
所以这说明繁荣是通过这种方式传染的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I would like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Joovv.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Joovv。
Joovv makes medical-grade red light therapy devices.
Joovv 生产医疗级红光治疗设备。
Now, if there's one thing that I have consistently emphasized on this podcast is the incredible impact that light can have on our biology and our health.
现在，如果我在这个播客中一直强调一件事，那就是光对我们的生物学和健康产生的令人难以置信的影响。
Now, in addition to sunlight, which I've talked about a lot on this podcast, red light, near-infrared, and infrared light have been specifically shown to have positive effects on improving numerous aspects of cellular and organ health.
现在，除了我在这个播客中多次谈论的阳光之外，红光、近红外光和红外光已被具体证明对改善细胞和器官健康的许多方面具有积极作用。
These include faster muscle recovery, improved skin health, wound healing, improvements in acne, reduced pain and inflammation, improved mitochondrial function, and even improvements in vision.
这些包括更快的肌肉恢复、改善皮肤健康、伤口愈合、改善痤疮、减少疼痛和炎症、改善线粒体功能，甚至改善视力。
Nowadays, there are a lot of red light devices out there.
现在市面上有很多闯红灯的装置。
But what sets Joovv lights apart, and why they're my preferred red light therapy device, is that they use clinically proven wavelengths, meaning they use the specific wavelengths of red light, near-infrared, and infrared light in combination to trigger the optimal cellular adaptations.
但 Joovv 灯的与众不同之处以及为什么它们成为我首选的红光治疗设备是因为它们使用经过临床验证的波长，这意味着它们结合使用特定波长的红光、近红外光和红外光来触发最佳的细胞适应。
Personally, I use the Joovv whole body panel about three to four times a week, usually for about 10 to 20 minutes per session, and I use the Joovv handheld light both at home and when I travel.
就我个人而言，我每周使用 Joovv 全身面板大约三到四次，通常每次大约 10 到 20 分钟，并且我在家和旅行时都使用 Joovv 手持灯。
If you would like to try Joovv, they're offering up to $400 off select products for listeners of this podcast.
如果您想尝试 Joovv，他们将为该播客的听众提供精选产品高达 400 美元的折扣。
To learn more, visit Joovv, spelled J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman.
要了解更多信息，请访问 Joovv，拼写为 J-O-O-V-V，.com/huberman。
Again, that's J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman.
再说一次，这是 J-O-O-V-V，.com/huberman。
It's so interesting, and again, I can think of so many different variables that could be at play.
It's so interesting, and again, I can think of so many different variables that could be at play.
We did an episode, one of our most popular episodes ever, with a guy named James Hollis.
我们和一个名叫詹姆斯·霍利斯的人一起制作了一集，这是我们有史以来最受欢迎的剧集之一。
Are you familiar with James Hollis?
你熟悉詹姆斯·霍利斯吗？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He's a probably by now 85-year-old Jungian analyst.
He's a probably by now 85-year-old Jungian analyst.
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Brilliant guy.
才华横溢的家伙。
He's written a number of books.
他写了很多书。
"The Eden Project," which is about relationships and relating, "Under Saturn's Shadow" about trauma and healing.
《伊甸园计划》是关于人际关系和关联的，《土星阴影下》是关于创伤和治愈的。
Just an incredible soul, an incredible human, and just an incredible educator, and I'm not alone in believing that.
他是一个令人难以置信的灵魂，一个令人难以置信的人类，一个令人难以置信的教育家，而且我并不是唯一一个相信这一点的人。
Just spectacular.
太壮观了。
He's a Jungian analyst, so I said, "What's the key to a really good life?
他是一位荣格分析师，所以我说：“真正美好生活的关键是什么？
But can we talk protocols?" And he said something really interesting that I think will resonate with what you're saying and perhaps shed some light on what happened with these students and flourishing in general.
但我们可以谈谈协议吗？”他说了一些非常有趣的话，我认为这会与你所说的产生共鸣，也许可以让你了解这些学生所发生的事情以及总体上的蓬勃发展。
He said, "It's so important that we wake up each day and we suit up and we show up and we work in school, in relationships, in life," he said, "But it's also just as important that we take a short amount of time every day and get out of stimulus and response."
他说，“我们每天醒来，穿好衣服，出现在学校，在人际关系中，在生活中工作，这非常重要，”他说，“但同样重要的是，我们每天花一小段时间摆脱刺激和反应。”
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because by getting out of stimulus and response, and I'm not being nearly as eloquent as Hollis, we come to know ourselves in a certain way that lets ourselves show up so much more effectively for everything else.
因为通过摆脱刺激和反应，而且我不像霍利斯那样雄辩，我们会以某种方式了解自己，让自己在其他事情上更有效地表现出来。
And so maybe, just maybe, what these teachers achieve is by sitting in this anxiety, because now I'm thinking about the lactate of the mind.
所以也许，只是也许，这些老师所取得的成就就是通过坐在这种焦虑中，因为现在我正在思考心灵的乳酸。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're doing a practice which lets them experience the anxiety, not respond to it.
They're doing a practice which lets them experience the anxiety, not respond to it.
They're getting out of stimulus and response.
他们正在摆脱刺激和反应。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And perhaps in the classroom, they're able to teach more effectively because they're not paying attention to the things that don't matter.
也许在课堂上，他们能够更有效地教学，因为他们没有注意那些不重要的事情。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or maybe it's because they're also paying attention to the things that do matter.
或者也许是因为他们也在关注真正重要的事情。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Do matter.
做事。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Their signal to noise is higher-
它们的信噪比更高-
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
so to speak.
可以这么说。
Anyway, I couldn't help but reference the Hollis thing, because to not do that would be remiss.
不管怎样，我忍不住提到了霍利斯的事情，因为不这样做就是失职。
But also, here's a guy who's saying, "You got to go to work each day.
But also, here's a guy who's saying, "You got to go to work each day.
This is essential to building a good life, and you have to do all these things." And he's also saying, "But getting out of stimulus response is what makes you effective in everything," and, of course, improves your self-understanding.
This is essential to building a good life, and you have to do all these things."他还说，“但摆脱刺激反应才能让你在所有事情上都高效”，当然，还能提高你的自我理解。
And I think what you're saying, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but what I think you're saying when you talk about meditation is that it's a way of getting out of stimulus and response.
我认为你所说的，我不想把话放在你嘴里，但我认为当你谈论冥想时，你所说的是，这是摆脱刺激和反应的一种方式。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
I think that's a great analogy.
我认为这是一个很好的类比。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, he deserves all the credit for all of that.
嗯，这一切都是他应得的。
You deserve all the credit for running all these experiments, because I feel like what's been so frustrating over the years has been to hear how powerful meditation is, but that for people in the West, the word meditation brings up ideas of mysticism and ancient things, and people think, "Well, that's not for me."
进行所有这些实验，你值得所有的赞誉，因为我觉得这些年来最令人沮丧的是听到冥想有多么强大，但对于西方人来说，冥想这个词带来了神秘主义和古老事物的想法，人们会想，“嗯，那不适合我。”
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"That's not going to benefit me now in this world." But I would argue we need it even more so now.
“这对我现在在这个世界上没有任何好处。”但我认为我们现在更需要它。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
I agree.
我同意。
And I think that the divisiveness and polarization that is just eating away at our society underscores the critical importance of this.
And I think that the divisiveness and polarization that is just eating away at our society underscores the critical importance of this.
I think it's needed now more than ever before in human history, and I think that with just modest amounts of practice, and one of the other kind of slogans that we think is really important is that it's easier than you think.
我认为现在比人类历史上任何时候都更需要它，而且我认为只需进行少量的练习，我们认为真正重要的另一种口号就是它比你想象的更容易。
It really is.
确实如此。
Five minutes a day has a measurable impact, and so I think that if we really take this to heart, if everyone practiced for five minutes a day, I have the strong conviction that this world would really be a different place.
每天五分钟具有显着的影响，所以我认为如果我们真的牢记这一点，如果每个人每天练习五分钟，我坚信这个世界真的会是一个不同的地方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, absolutely.
哦，绝对是。
I think the challenge is convincing people, and you're doing it.
我认为挑战在于说服人们，而你正在做到这一点。
We're trying to do that little by little.
我们正在努力一点一点地做到这一点。
For a zero-cost tool, it's just outsized positive effects.
For a zero-cost tool, it's just outsized positive effects.
I think most people come to the table because it will lower their blood pressure.
I think most people come to the table because it will lower their blood pressure.
They hear that it will reduce their stress, maybe make them more effective, make them smarter, sleep better.
他们听说这会减轻他们的压力，也许会让他们更有效率，让他们更聪明，睡得更好。
But there are also the higher order effects that people talk about, gaining some understanding of consciousness and what it may or may not be.
But there are also the higher order effects that people talk about, gaining some understanding of consciousness and what it may or may not be.
When do those effects tend to arrive, if they ever do?
如果这些影响会出现的话，它们什么时候会出现？
Is it true that by meditating, by getting out of the stimulus and response and just watching one's thoughts and not responding to them and just non-judgment, that we can actually gain some fundamental insight into how our minds work?
通过冥想，摆脱刺激和反应，只观察自己的想法，不对其做出反应，只是不做判断，我们真的可以对我们的思维如何运作获得一些基本的洞察吗？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
I do think that that's possible, and I think that it does occur.
I do think that that's possible, and I think that it does occur.
And I think that if we're really good scientists, there is an important element of humility as we approach this that underscores really how little we know.
我认为，如果我们真的是优秀的科学家，那么在我们处理这个问题时，谦虚是一个重要的因素，这突显了我们所知的实在是太少了。
And I think that these kinds of practices help us tap into something that I think is part of what it means to be a human being.
And I think that these kinds of practices help us tap into something that I think is part of what it means to be a human being.
And part of it is honestly, we can use the words spiritual in some way, or transcendent, and by that, I mean something connected to something larger than oneself.
老实说，其中一部分是，我们可以以某种方式使用“精神”或“超越”这个词，我指的是与比自己更大的事物相关的事物。
And I know that this is getting into a little bit of woo-woo territory, but people do have a taste of this, and it helps to give their life more meaning and to infuse it with a kind of purpose that I think is really beneficial.
我知道这有点令人兴奋，但人们确实尝到了这一点，这有助于赋予他们的生活更多意义，并为其注入一种我认为真正有益的目的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I wonder, and I'd love your thoughts on this, whether by doing meditation and seeing that the mind is chaotic and that it's difficult to control and that perhaps the best thing we can do is just observe and not respond to it, but not try and control it, that inevitably in one's meditation practice, that the reality surfaces that we're all going to die.
我想知道，我很想听听你对此的想法，无论是通过冥想，看到心灵是混乱的、难以控制的，也许我们能做的最好的事情就是只是观察而不对其做出反应，但不要试图控制它，在一个人的冥想练习中，不可避免地会出现我们都会死亡的现实。
And I think for a lot of people, the fear of death is terrifying.
And I think for a lot of people, the fear of death is terrifying.
It's inevitable, and it's terrifying.
这是不可避免的，也是可怕的。
And I do sometimes feel that a lot of the stuff in the world that we're offered, whether or not it's drugs or alcohol or excessive work or whatever, that a deeper layer of that offering is that it distracts us from that reality.
我有时确实觉得，世界上我们所得到的很多东西，无论是毒品、酒精、过度工作还是其他什么，这些东西的更深层次是它分散了我们对现实的注意力。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because it's terrifying.
因为它很可怕。
Right?
正确的？
Any healthy person doesn't want to die.
任何健康的人都不想死。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Although, I don't think it's terrifying for all people, and I think that this is actually one of the dimensions that is shifted by long-term meditation practice, unquestionably.
虽然，我不认为这对所有人来说都是可怕的，而且我认为这实际上是长期冥想练习所改变的维度之一，毫无疑问。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is it shifted because people Come to some understanding of energy and the fact that they will likely become part of something else?
Is it shifted because people Come to some understanding of energy and the fact that they will likely become part of something else?
Or do you think it's that they can just accept the reality that we're here, then we're not here?
Or do you think it's that they can just accept the reality that we're here, then we're not here?
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
I think it's more the latter, and also, imagine that this is the last day we're living.
我认为更多的是后者，而且，想象这是我们活着的最后一天。
Right now.
现在。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Friday the 13th, of all days.
所有日子中，13 号是星期五。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Of all days.
所有的日子里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It happens to be Friday the 13th.
恰好是 13 号星期五。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
And are we showing up in a way that feels right for us, and making the most of our lives and not squandering the opportunity that we have?
我们是否以一种适合自己的方式出现，充分利用我们的生活，而不是浪费我们所拥有的机会？
And if we can live every day in that way, it really will change, I think, how we approach our mortality.
我认为，如果我们能每天都这样生活，那真的会改变我们对待死亡的方式。
And I know for me personally, well, I feel very differently about dying today than I did 15 years ago.
And I know for me personally, well, I feel very differently about dying today than I did 15 years ago.
That's one dimension where there's been a dramatic shift.
这是发生了巨大转变的一个维度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Would you mind elaborating on that?
您介意详细说明一下吗？
How so?
为何如此？
How did you feel about it 15, 20 years ago?
15、20年前你对此有何感想？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah, I was terrified, in the same way.
是的，我也同样感到害怕。
I had a family.
我有一个家庭。
I have two kids.
我有两个孩子。
I have all these responsibilities, and I reflect on this.
我承担了所有这些责任，我对此进行了反思。
I really do.
我真的这么做。
And if I died today, I would feel like I've lived a very fulfilling life.
如果我今天去世，我会觉得我的生活非常充实。
And I'm fine with that.
我对此很满意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a great thing to be able to say.
能够这么说真是太好了。
That's a great thing to be able to say.
能够这么说真是太好了。
I don't think most people would probably be able to say the same wholeheartedly.
我认为大多数人可能无法全心全意地说出同样的话。
Yeah.
是的。
And you attribute some of that sense to meditation.
你将这种感觉的一部分归因于冥想。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Definitely.
绝对是。
But it's been gradual.
但这是渐进的。
I've been at this...
我曾经在这...
My very first meditation retreat was in 1974.
我的第一次冥想静修是在 1974 年。
And I've been practicing daily ever since.
从那时起我就每天练习。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Every single day?
每一天？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Well, I may have missed-
好吧，我可能错过了——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay
好的
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
...
...
one or two days a year when I had a 6:00 a.m.
一年中有一两天我有早上 6:00 的时间。
flight.
飞行。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
But other than that, yes.
但除此之外，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And what has your most consistent practice been?
您最一贯的做法是什么？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
My practice has changed many times over the course of these years, and very different traditions in which I've practiced.
这些年来，我的实践发生了很多次变化，并且我所实践的传统也非常不同。
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What about time of day?
一天中的什么时间呢？
Is it typically-
是不是典型的——
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Morning.
早上。
It's always been morning for me.
对我来说总是早上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You get up, you use the bathroom, have a drink of water, and start, or you go right into it?
你起床，上厕所，喝点水，然后开始，或者直接进去？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
No, I get up, and I make myself, these days, a cup of strong black tea.
不，我起床，这些天我给自己泡了一杯浓红茶。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
And I drink the tea, which takes maybe 15 minutes, and then I meditate.
我喝茶，大约需要 15 分钟，然后我冥想。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it.
明白了。
Do you set a timer or a chime?
你设置定时器或铃声吗？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah, I do set a timer.
是的，我确实设置了一个计时器。
And I meditate at various lengths, but my modal time sitting is about 45 minutes a day.
我冥想的时间长度各不相同，但我最常静坐的时间是每天 45 分钟左右。
Sometimes it's longer, sometimes it's shorter, but usually around 45 minutes a day.
有时更长，有时更短，但通常每天大约 45 分钟。
And maybe three or four days a week, I do a really short practice at night, maybe five minutes, before I go to sleep.
也许每周有三到四天，我会在晚上睡觉前进行一次很短的练习，也许五分钟。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Since everyone that takes on the five-minute-a-day, 30-day meditation challenge will do it, once they reach 30 days, does it make sense to update that to a longer meditation, or would you just suggest that people stay with that as long as possible?
既然每个接受每天五分钟、为期 30 天的冥想挑战的人都会这样做，那么一旦他们达到 30 天，将其更新为更长的冥想是否有意义，或者您是否会建议人们尽可能长时间地坚持下去？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
What I would suggest is check in with yourself, and see how you're feeling about it and how it's resonating with you.
我的建议是检查一下自己，看看你对此有何感受以及它如何与你产生共鸣。
And if you feel like you can't really do much more, just stick with five minutes a day and keep doing that.
如果你觉得自己不能做更多的事情，那就每天坚持五分钟，然后继续这样做。
The important thing is to stick with a daily practice.
重要的是坚持日常练习。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
And one of the things that we talk about in this new book, "Born to Flourish," is a lot of people have a really difficult time coming up with really being able to do this daily.
我们在这本新书《生而繁荣》中讨论的一件事是，很多人都很难真正每天都能做到这一点。
And one of the things that we talk about, based on our finding, that it doesn't matter, at least in the early stages, whether you're meditating as a formal practice or doing it while doing other activities of daily living that are not demanding, like walking or commuting.
根据我们的发现，我们谈论的一件事是，至少在早期阶段，无论你是将冥想作为正式练习还是在进行其他要求不高的日常生活活动（例如步行或通勤）时进行冥想，这并不重要。
You tie this to regular activities that you do every day, whatever those activities are.
您可以将其与您每天进行的常规活动联系起来，无论这些活动是什么。
And we talk about this idea of social zeitgebers.
我们谈论社会时代的概念。
A zeitgeber, as you know, is an environmental event, a signal that marks, in the classical literature, a biological rhythm.
如您所知，时间是一种环境事件，是一种在古典文献中标记生物节律的信号。
Like light is a zeitgeber to set our biological rhythms.
就像光是设定我们生物节律的时间一样。
But in the modern world, we have social zeitgebers that are human-created zeitgebers.
但在现代世界，我们的社会时代是人类创造的时代。
So eating, for example, is a zeitgeber.
例如，吃饭就是一个时代。
We eat typically at roughly similar times every day, at least most people.
我们每天的吃饭时间通常大致相似，至少对大多数人来说是这样。
And that's an opportunity.
这是一个机会。
You do that every day.
你每天都这样做。
You can pair a little practice with that.
您可以对此进行一些练习。
And one of the practices that you can do, which I do every time I eat, virtually, unless I'm meeting with someone and it's awkward, but I do it at home, is do a little appreciation practice.
你可以做的练习之一，我每次吃饭时都会做，实际上，除非我要和某人见面并且这很尴尬，但我在家里做，就是做一些欣赏练习。
Spend just 30 to 90 seconds reflecting on all the people it took to have food on your plate.
只需花 30 到 90 秒的时间思考一下为你提供食物的所有人员。
And it also gives you a sense of interdependence.
它还给你一种相互依赖的感觉。
And when I sit down and have my breakfast, it's a cue for me.
当我坐下来吃早餐时，这对我来说是一个暗示。
It's a social zeitgeber I do my appreciation practice every single time.
这是一个社交时代，我每次都会进行欣赏练习。
And then there's crazy things you can do, like I have a cat at home.
然后你可以做一些疯狂的事情，比如我家里养了一只猫。
I'm the one who scoops the litter every night.
我是每天晚上铲垃圾的人。
I actually do that as a practice.
我实际上这样做是为了练习。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
And it literally takes no extra time.
而且实际上不需要额外的时间。
I do it while I'm doing the scooping of the litter.
我在铲垃圾的时候会这样做。
But I honestly do this in a very authentic, genuine way.
但老实说，我以一种非常真实、真诚的方式来做这件事。
I reflect on, "The cat really appreciates this.
我想了想，“猫真的很欣赏这个。
My wife appreciates this."
我的妻子对此表示赞赏。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I bet.
我敢打赌。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
And people who go into the room with the cat litter appreciate that it's clean and scooped on a regular basis.
进入装有猫砂的房间的人会欣赏猫砂的干净且定期铲除。
And I just reflect on that intentionally.
我只是有意地反思这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
It doesn't take much.
这并不需要太多。
It's easier than you think.
这比你想象的要容易。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, it's so interesting.
是的，这太有趣了。
I don't want to contort the message you're offering, because it's a powerful one, about bringing awareness to the things that we have to do anyway and allowing that to make us more effective and happier and more present.
我不想扭曲你所传达的信息，因为它是一个强有力的信息，让我们意识到我们无论如何都必须做的事情，并让我们变得更有效、更快乐、更存在。
But there's also this idea around disciplines, and the word discipline is kind of heavy.
但也有这种关于纪律的想法，而纪律这个词有点沉重。
Nobody really likes it, because we got disciplined or something.
没有人真正喜欢它，因为我们受到纪律之类的。
But I used to pride myself on working longer hours than everyone, and as the years have gone on, I pride myself in just, consistency is my superpower.
但我曾经为自己比其他人工作时间更长而感到自豪，随着时间的推移，我为自己感到自豪，一致性是我的超能力。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I may not show up with the most intensity every time, although sometimes.
尽管有时，我可能不会每次都表现得最激烈。
But intensity kind of waxes and wanes, but there's something about just showing up anyway and just doing it anyway that is so powerful.
但强度会时强时弱，但无论如何都要出现，无论如何都要去做，这是非常强大的。
And I sometimes wonder whether or not the mind is just our foe until we embrace that piece.
有时我想知道，在我们拥抱那件作品之前，心灵是否只是我们的敌人。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's kind of a little bit of what you're saying.
你说的有点像。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And I love the consistency theme and also the discipline.
我喜欢一致性主题和纪律。
And yes, I think you're naming something real and important.
是的，我认为你正在命名一些真实且重要的东西。
And there's a delicate calculus that ranges between letting go and discipline.
在放手和纪律之间存在着微妙的计算。
And each person, I think, falls at a different point in this continuum.
我认为，每个人都处于这个连续体的不同阶段。
And what works for one person may not work for another.
对一个人有效的方法可能对其他人无效。
With regard to meditation, I always say that what's best for one person isn't necessarily what's best for others, and we have to discover what works for us.
关于冥想，我总是说，对一个人最好的不一定对其他人最好，我们必须发现什么对我们最有效。
What we do know is that in terms of meditation, that consistency is really important.
我们所知道的是，就冥想而言，一致性非常重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I was never a particularly good athlete or bad athlete, but I've just been really consistent at exercise, and I play fewer sports these days than I did.
是的，我从来都不是一个特别好的运动员或坏的运动员，但我一直坚持锻炼，而且这些天我参加的运动比以前少了。
But just continuing to show up allows you to be the person among your peers.
但只要继续出现，你就能成为同龄人中的佼佼者。
Not that it's competitive where everyone else seems to have quit, and they're talking about how much this hurts and that hurts, and all that you really had to do is just keep going.
并不是说其他人似乎都放弃了竞争，他们正在谈论这有多痛，那有多痛，而你真正要做的就是继续前进。
And I sometimes think that the people that are max intensity and it's like gold medal or bust, they're always the ones, or often the ones, that we don't hear from anymore.
有时我会想，那些强度最大的人，就像金牌或半身像，他们总是，或者经常是我们再也听不到的人。
They're like gone.
他们就像消失了一样。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
They burn out.
他们精疲力尽。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
So I love the examples of the Dalai Lama and the Michael Jordans of every domain, but I don't know.
所以我喜欢各个领域的达赖喇嘛和迈克尔·乔丹的例子，但我不知道。
I'm more interested in being the person that at 50, 60, you're in your mid-70s.
我更感兴趣的是成为 50 岁、60 岁、70 多岁的人。
You look incredible.
你看起来不可思议。
You're super vital, cognitively sharp, you're in shape, you're excited about life, you're not afraid of death.
你非常有活力，认知敏锐，身体健康，对生活感到兴奋，并且不害怕死亡。
Clearly, you're onto something.
显然，你正在做某事。
And I doubt it's just the black tea.
我怀疑这只是红茶。
I'm guessing it's, to some extent, you have all the other aspects of your life, but this consistency of meditation practice.
我猜在某种程度上，你拥有生活的所有其他方面，但冥想练习的一致性。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
No, I think it's been super important.
不，我认为这非常重要。
I do think that the discipline that you're talking about is really important, and it is part of it.
我确实认为你所谈论的纪律非常重要，而且它是其中的一部分。
But again, I think we need to find the right balance for each person, and initially, it's really important to have people, invite them to taste this with the lowest possible friction so that they can really experience the benefit.
但同样，我认为我们需要为每个人找到适当的平衡，首先，让人们邀请他们以尽可能低的摩擦来品尝这个非常重要，这样他们才能真正体验到好处。
And then it can gradually-
然后它可以逐渐——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
...
...
progress, and they can harness some discipline, which eventually will be important.
进步，他们可以利用一些纪律，这最终会很重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to talk about online culture and social media just briefly because I don't want to demonize it.
我想简单地谈谈网络文化和社交媒体，因为我不想妖魔化它。
I teach on social media.
我在社交媒体上教学。
This will be aired on various online platforms, and clips of it will appear on social media.
该视频将在各种在线平台上播出，其剪辑将出现在社交媒体上。
But I have this sneaking suspicion that by going online, the mind starts to believe this thing that's not true, that if we're not online, either posting or looking at what people post, or both, that somehow we'll disappear.
但我有一种偷偷的怀疑，通过上网，大脑开始相信这件事不是真的，如果我们不上网，无论是发帖还是看人们发帖，或者两者兼而有之，我们就会以某种方式消失。
And it gets to this idea of the anxiety that one feels when you just go into your own mind, and it's chaos in there for so many people.
当你进入自己的思想时，人们会感到焦虑，而对于很多人来说，那里是混乱的。
It's like, "It's chaos in here," and then just learning to sit with that.
就像是，“这里很混乱”，然后就学会忍受这一点。
I think a lot of people go into the world because the chaos of the world can occupy their attention, and then it's not about the chaos that's in them.
我认为很多人走进这个世界是因为世界的混乱可以吸引他们的注意力，然后他们就不再关心他们内心的混乱了。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Again, I don't want to demonize online platforms, because I use them, I educate on them, I learn from them, and I gain entertainment from them, too.
再说一遍，我不想妖魔化在线平台，因为我使用它们，我接受它们的教育，我向它们学习，我也从中获得娱乐。
But I wonder whether or not the net effect of social media and the internet over the last, let's say, 10 to 15 years, has been to trick the mind at an unconscious level into thinking that if we're not on there, we're going to miss out.
但我想知道社交媒体和互联网在过去（比如说 10 到 15 年）中的净效应是否会在无意识的水平上欺骗我们的大脑，让我们认为如果我们不在那里，我们就会错过。
But it's not FOMO of we're not going to be included, but that I actually think it may run much deeper than that, that it's that we don't exist- That life is there, and if we're not aware of it, we don't exist.
但这并不是我们不会被包括在内，而是我实际上认为它可能比这更深层次，那就是我们不存在——生命就在那里，如果我们没有意识到它，我们就不存在。
Because I see parents looking at their phones while their kids are running around them.
因为我看到父母们在看手机，而孩子们却在他们身边跑来跑去。
So you can't say, "Oh, well, you have kids and you're tending to your kids." And some parents are great parents, but I see a lot of kids that are clearly being babysat by devices, and the parents will say, "Listen, it's the only thing that quiets them down and gets them to settle down while I can tend to things." So I can relate.
所以你不能说，“哦，好吧，你有孩子，你要照顾你的孩子。”有些父母是伟大的父母，但我看到很多孩子显然是通过设备来照顾的，父母会说，“听着，这是唯一能让他们安静下来并让他们安定下来的东西，而我可以照顾事情。”所以我可以理解。
But what do you think about the idea that the internet, while powerful and can be used for great good, may have convinced billions of human minds that they don't exist if they're not observing or engaging on there?
但是，您如何看待这样的想法：互联网虽然强大并且可以用于伟大的事业，但可能已经让数十亿人相信，如果他们不观察或参与互联网，他们就不存在？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
I think that that's something super important, and I think with regard to attention, we talk about two big buckets.
我认为这是非常重要的事情，我认为关于注意力，我们谈论两个大桶。
One is stimulus-captured attention, and the folks who design products online have been really good at capturing our attention.
一是刺激吸引注意力，在线设计产品的人非常擅长吸引我们的注意力。
And our attention gets hijacked by that, and it leads to the kind of inference that you're talking about, which is that people feel that they may not exist unless they're online.
我们的注意力因此被劫持，这导致了你所说的那种推论，那就是人们觉得除非他们上网，否则他们可能不存在。
And I read some survey study that was done within the last year that reported that the average American opens their phone 152 times a day.
我读到了去年进行的一项调查研究，报告称美国人平均每天打开手机 152 次。
I think most people would agree they don't need to open their phone 152 times a day, but we do it for those kinds of reasons.
我想大多数人都会同意他们不需要每天打开手机 152 次，但我们这样做是出于这些原因。
And I often say we are all part of a grand experiment for which none of us have provided our informed consent.
我经常说，我们都是一项宏伟实验的一部分，而我们中没有人对此表示知情同意。
And I think it's serious, and I think that we don't know what the long-term consequences are going to be.
我认为这很严重，而且我认为我们不知道长期后果会是什么。
But we do know that the short-term consequences, at least in certain cases, are not very good.
但我们确实知道，至少在某些情况下，短期后果并不是很好。
And I'm someone who is also, like you, Andrew, a great believer in the potential value of technology.
安德鲁，我和你一样，也是技术潜在价值的坚定信仰者。
And I believe that technology is basically neutral and we can use it for the good, and it can be used for harm.
我相信技术基本上是中立的，我们可以用它来做好事，也可以用它来做坏事。
But the previous surgeon general of the United States, who I miss, Vivek Murthy, issued a health advisory in 2023 on social media.
但我怀念的美国前卫生局局长维韦克·穆尔蒂 (Vivek Murthy) 在社交媒体上发布了 2023 年健康建议。
The title was "Social Media and Youth Mental Health." And he has scary data that was reported in that report.
标题是“社交媒体与青少年心理健康”。他有该报告中报告的可怕数据。
Some of the data show that the psychiatric problems in adolescents scale linearly with the hours of social media consumption per day.
一些数据显示，青少年的精神问题与每天使用社交媒体的时间呈线性关系。
And so it is really eroding the mental health of our youth, not to say of our adults, too.
因此，它确实损害了我们年轻人的心理健康，更不用说我们成年人了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I think a lot of adults now are hitting the black ice of internet usage.
是的，我认为现在很多成年人都遇到了互联网使用的黑冰。
Even among peers of ours, even professionals, it was wild to see how many people who were chairs of departments, brilliant creators, academics, people from all domains of life demolished their careers by getting caught up in stuff online and not being thoughtful about what they were posting.
即使在我们的同行中，甚至在专业人士中，我们也很惊讶地发现，有多少系主任、杰出的创造者、学者、来自各行各业的人，因为沉迷于网上的事物而没有认真思考自己发布的内容，从而毁掉了自己的职业生涯。
You just go, "I can't believe it." They threw away their professional lives with their thumbs.
你只需说：“我简直不敢相信。”他们用拇指抛弃了自己的职业生涯。
It was wild, if you think about it.
如果你仔细想想，那真是太疯狂了。
And this is happening less nowadays, but just people nuking their careers that they had spent 20, 30 years building.
现在这种情况已经很少发生了，只是人们毁掉了他们花了 20、30 年建立的职业生涯。
These were very successful, very smart people.
这些人都是非常成功、非常聪明的人。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But somehow got caught up in it.
但不知怎的，却被卷入其中。
We see that less, but I do see a lot of people getting into the whole polarization thing to the point where there really is no common ground online.
我们看到的较少，但我确实看到很多人陷入了两极分化的境地，以至于网上确实没有共同点。
It's impossible.
这是不可能的。
You can't take a nuanced perspective on something.
你无法对某件事采取细致入微的观点。
I try.
我尝试一下。
I said, "Oh, I thought the new food guidelines could afford to include a few more vegetable suggestions and some fermented foods." And immediately, the fact that I didn't completely attack it, I got attacked for that.
我说：“哦，我认为新的食品指南可以包含更多的蔬菜建议和一些发酵食品。”事实上，我没有完全攻击它，我因此受到了攻击。
But then I got attacked from the other side for not completely embracing it.
但后来我因为没有完全接受它而受到了另一方的攻击。
So it's like you can't win.
所以说你是赢不了的。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You can't win.
你赢不了。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But getting offline is not an option.
但离线并不是一个选择。
It's not an option.
这不是一个选择。
And the younger generation has been very clear with me about that.
年轻一代对我来说非常清楚这一点。
It is not an option.
这不是一个选择。
To not be on social media platforms, to not be texting much of the day is to not exist in the social milieu.
不在社交媒体平台上，不在一天中的大部分时间发短信，就等于不存在于社交环境中。
And so how do we reconcile that?
那么我们如何协调这一点呢？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So these are really complicated issues.
所以这些都是非常复杂的问题。
I think that I certainly don't in any way pretend to have the answer, but I do think that we need to take digital hygiene seriously, and we need to figure out ways of, as part of standard school curricula, of educating our youth in how to change their relationship or how to be, to say it a different way, how to be in healthy relationship with their digital devices and the products and features that are available on those devices.
我想我当然不会假装知道答案，但我确实认为我们需要认真对待数字卫生，我们需要找出方法，作为标准学校课程的一部分，教育我们的年轻人如何改变他们的关系，或者换句话说，如何与他们的数字设备以及这些设备上提供的产品和功能保持健康的关系。
I have the conviction that it's a trainable skill.
我坚信这是一项可以训练的技能。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
But we need, particularly in youth, to start early, before they get their first phone.
但我们需要，特别是年轻人，在他们拥有第一部手机之前就开始。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is there any evidence that meditation, because it allows somebody to sit with the lactate of the mind, can also afford someone less impulsivity and sort of being less prone to getting hooked by the chaos of the world around them?
是否有任何证据表明，冥想可以让人们静心思考，也可以让人们减少冲动，并且不太容易被周围世界的混乱所困扰？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I don't think there's any hard data on that, but I think it's a great question.
我认为没有任何硬数据，但我认为这是一个很好的问题。
I think it's actually empirically tractable.
我认为这实际上是凭经验可以处理的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
I think it's really worth studying.
我认为这确实值得研究。
My conviction is yes, I think it would be helpful, but the data don't exist.
我的信念是肯定的，我认为这会有所帮助，但数据不存在。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What would an experiment like that look like?
这样的实验会是什么样子？
I feel like we should run that experiment.
我觉得我们应该进行这个实验。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
That would be cool.
那会很酷。
I'd love-
我愿意-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
...
...
to collaborate.
进行合作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I feel like there's got to be established in-lab measures of impulsivity.
我觉得必须在实验室内建立衡量冲动的措施。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
There are good measures of impulsivity.
有一些很好的措施来衡量冲动。
And actually, with impulsivity, there are measures that go beyond self-report measures.
事实上，在冲动的情况下，有一些措施超出了自我报告的措施。
There are behavioral measures of impulsivity which may have more validity, and so it would be extremely interesting.
有一些冲动的行为测量可能更有效，所以这将是非常有趣的。
And with device use and with a person's consent, you can actually get back-end data, so you don't rely on self-report, so it can be really robust kind of evidence.
通过使用设备并征得个人同意，您实际上可以获得后端数据，因此您不必依赖自我报告，因此它可以成为真正可靠的证据。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The word discipline comes to mind again, and I think so many people, when they hear discipline, they think about doing certain things, waking up at 5:00, exercising, meditating, eating clean, et cetera.
我再次想到“纪律”这个词，我想很多人一听到纪律，就会想到做某些事情，比如 5:00 起床、锻炼、冥想、干净饮食等等。
But to me, the most interesting aspect of discipline are the don't-dos.
但对我来说，纪律最有趣的方面是不该做的事情。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yes.
是的。
Not-
不-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's all the stuff you don't do.
这都是你不做的事情。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You know, we're in the Winter Olympics now, and I haven't been watching.
你知道，我们现在正在参加冬季奥运会，但我还没看。
I like the Summer Olympics.
我喜欢夏季奥运会。
But inevitably, when they do the Olympics, they interview the people who win gold medals, or they'll do a day in the life of, and they'll say, "Ah, they wake up at 5:00 a.m., and then they train." And they always want to say, "What do they eat?"
但不可避免的是，当他们参加奥运会时，他们会采访那些获得金牌的人，或者他们会在生活中度过一天，然后他们会说，“啊，他们早上 5:00 起床，然后训练。”他们总是想说：“他们吃什么？”
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They go, "I have four eggs and my oatmeal," or whatever it is.
他们会说，“我有四个鸡蛋和燕麦片”，或者其他什么。
What they really need to show is all the things they don't eat, right?
他们真正需要展示的是他们不吃的所有东西，对吧？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because sure, what they eat is interesting, perhaps, but far more relevant to their performance is all the things they don't eat.
因为当然，他们吃的东西也许很有趣，但与他们的表现更相关的是他们不吃的所有东西。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's all the things they're not doing.
这都是他们没有做的事情。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And of course, that makes for much less entertaining shows, so they don't do that.
当然，这会导致节目的娱乐性大大降低，所以他们不会这样做。
But I feel like the training that would be so valuable is to train up the no-go response.
但我觉得训练“不去反应”才是非常有价值的。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
One of the things in my own life that I'm very aware of is, and apropos not doing, is not taking out my phone.
在我自己的生活中，我非常清楚的一件事就是不拿出手机，但我没有这样做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
And I'm very intentionally aware of that.
我非常有意地意识到这一点。
I actually do a little practice of feeling my phone in my pocket, and I really will not take it out unless I actually need it.
实际上，我做了一些感觉手机在口袋里的练习，除非我确实需要它，否则我真的不会把它拿出来。
I remind people when I have meetings at our center, often it's just the cultural habit, particularly with young people, they put their phone on the table.
我提醒人们，当我在我们中心开会时，通常这只是文化习惯，尤其是年轻人，他们把手机放在桌子上。
And there are data showing that even if you have all your notifications turned off, the simple presence of the device is enough to impair the interaction in some way, to have a discernible impact.
有数据表明，即使您关闭了所有通知，设备的简单存在也足以以某种方式损害交互，从而产生明显的影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And cognitive ability.
和认知能力。
There's this really, I don't know if you've seen this study.
确实有这个，我不知道你是否看过这个研究。
It's pretty cool.
非常酷。
They looked at cognitive performance in people that had the phone upside down on the table, in their backpack, beneath their chair, or in a different room.
他们观察了将手机倒放在桌子上、背包里、椅子下面或其他房间里的人的认知表现。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And only by having it in a different room do you see the normal level of cognitive focus, not even an improvement.
只有把它放在不同的房间里，你才能看到认知焦点的正常水平，甚至没有改善。
It turns out that people can focus just as well, it's really interesting, they focus just as well if the phone is on the table or under their chair in their backpack.
事实证明，人们同样可以集中注意力，这真的很有趣，如果手机放在桌子上或背包里的椅子下面，他们也能集中注意力。
But that the brain is using additional resources to keep suppressing the thought about the phone, so their cognitive performance is diminished.
但大脑正在使用额外的资源来不断抑制有关手机的想法，因此他们的认知能力会下降。
So the phone is really a cognitive detractor-
所以手机确实是一个认知障碍——
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
under those conditions.
在那些条件下。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think about that a lot.
我对此思考了很多。
It's also why I have a lockbox for my phone.
这也是我为手机配备密码箱的原因。
I keep it in a separate room.
我把它放在一个单独的房间里。
It's one of the reasons I love this podcast more and more with every passing week, because no phones in here, we can really drop into things.
这是我每周都越来越喜欢这个播客的原因之一，因为这里没有手机，我们真的可以投入其中。
Yeah, I think that training the no-go response, having that level of discipline is the superpower.
是的，我认为训练“不去反应”，拥有这种程度的纪律就是超能力。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All the other stuff, the to-dos, I mean, yeah, it's important, can't just not do anything, obviously, but we focus so much on what to take, what to do.
所有其他的事情，待办事项，我的意思是，是的，这很重要，显然不能不做任何事情，但我们非常关注要采取什么，要做什么。
People always want to know, what should I take?
人们总是想知道，我应该服用什么？
What should I do?
我应该怎么办？
What's the ideal workout routine?
理想的锻炼程序是什么？
What's the-- And here we have this five-minute-a-day meditation, great.
这是什么——我们每天进行五分钟的冥想，太棒了。
But it's also all the things you're not doing when you can sit for five minutes.
但这也是当你可以坐五分钟时你不做的所有事情。
You're not responding to the impulse to get up.
你没有回应起床的冲动。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The discomfort of body that can come up during meditation, a pain in the back, your hip getting tight.
冥想时可能会出现身体不适，背部疼痛，臀部紧绷。
Should we look at those as an opportunity to train up the mind and our ability to not go into stimulus response, or should we get comfortable?
我们是否应该将这些视为训练思想和不陷入刺激反应的能力的机会，还是应该感到舒服？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
It's a great question.
这是一个很好的问题。
And my very first meditation retreat in 1974, I just went into this cold, and it was like meditation boot camp.
1974 年，我第一次参加冥想静修，当时我正处于寒冷之中，就像冥想训练营一样。
It was a kind of retreat where we were practicing for 16 hours a day, and my body was on fire.
这是一种静修，我们每天练习16个小时，我的身体着火了。
It was so painful physically.
身体上非常痛苦。
That was the most predominant experience that I had.
这是我最重要的经历。
Just intense, intense physical pain.
只是剧烈的、剧烈的身体疼痛。
And then in this style of practice, after the third day, you had to make a vow that you're not going to move during each hour-long session.
然后在这种练习方式中，第三天之后，你必须发誓在每个小时的练习中你不会移动。
So the meditation sessions were hour-long, and you had to make a vow that you're not going to move.
所以冥想课程长达一个小时，你必须发誓你不会动。
Man, the pain was so intense, the physical pain.
伙计，疼痛是如此剧烈，身体上的疼痛。
And eventually, after the fourth day, there's a kind of breakthrough that most people have, which is this remarkable kind of experiential insight where you directly look at the pain, and you see that it's not exactly what it's cracked up to be, and it's actually much more differentiated.
最终，在第四天之后，大多数人都会有一种突破，这是一种非凡的体验式洞察力，你可以直接观察疼痛，你会发现它并不完全是人们吹捧的那样，而且它实际上更加与众不同。
And you begin to see all of its constituents, and that's when there's a kind of release.
你开始看到它的所有组成部分，那就是一种释放的时候。
The other thing to say is that We've done imaging work with physical pain and meditation.
另外要说的是，我们做了身体疼痛和冥想的影像工作。
It's one of the most robust kind of probes that you can use to interrogate the quality of the practice and also the longer-term trade effects, if you will.
这是最有力的调查之一，您可以用它来询问实践的质量以及长期的贸易影响（如果您愿意的话）。
And I liken it, by the way, when you go to a cardiologist, you often do a cardiac stress test.
顺便说一句，当你去看心脏病专家时，你经常会做心脏压力测试。
And so one of the best ways to probe the integrity of the system is by challenging it, and not just looking at it at baseline, so to speak.
因此，探测系统完整性的最佳方法之一就是挑战它，而不仅仅是在基线上查看它。
And it's true of the mind and the brain.
对于心灵和大脑来说也是如此。
And one of the best challenges is physical pain.
最大的挑战之一是身体疼痛。
So we've done work where we've primarily used heat as a painful stimulus because it can be delivered very precisely and very safely.
因此，我们所做的工作主要使用热量作为痛苦的刺激，因为它可以非常精确且非常安全地传递。
In imaging data, there is a signature that is quite specifically tied to the physical pain itself, and that there's another signature that is associated with the emotional reaction to the pain.
在影像数据中，有一个特征与身体疼痛本身密切相关，还有另一个特征与对疼痛的情绪反应相关。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The interpretation of it.
对它的解读。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
The interpretation.
解释。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it.
明白了。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
And when we subjectively experience distress in response to pain, it's actually mostly contributed by the secondary response, that is the emotional response to the initial noxious stimulus itself.
当我们主观地因疼痛而感到痛苦时，它实际上主要是由次级反应造成的，即对最初的有害刺激本身的情绪反应。
And that is the set of neural changes that we most dramatically see transformed by meditation as a trade effect.
这就是我们最戏剧性地看到的一系列神经变化，冥想作为一种贸易效应而发生了转变。
And it's particularly, and this is published data, this was done with long-term meditation practitioners, and we show that actually it's specifically retreat practice.
特别是，这是已发表的数据，这是由长期冥想练习者完成的，我们表明，实际上这是专门的闭关练习。
So we can have two people who are matched on the total number of hours that they've practiced in a lifetime, where in one person it is much more during retreat compared to another person, and it's specifically retreat practice where you're doing more intensive practice that contributes to the transformation of this emotional pain signature.
因此，我们可以让两个人在一生中练习的总小时数相匹配，其中一个人在静修期间的练习时间比另一个人要多得多，而且在静修练习中，你进行更密集的练习，有助于改变这种情感痛苦特征。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What would a good retreat practice look like?
一个好的闭关修行应该是什么样的？
It would be presumably a course, but I guess if somebody didn't have the resources, they could take a weekend.
这大概是一门课程，但我想如果有人没有资源，他们可以花一个周末。
And what does that look like?
那是什么样子的？
They're meditating a couple hours a day?
他们每天冥想几个小时？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
More than a couple of hours a day.
一天几个小时以上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
So it'd be kind of hard to self-direct.
所以自我指导会有点困难。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah, although there are a lot of online resources for this.
是的，尽管有很多在线资源。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
And actually, for a person who is unable, for whatever reason, to go physically to a retreat, there are online resources.
事实上，对于无论出于何种原因无法亲自去静修的人，都有在线资源。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
But of course, I think it's probably more beneficial to do it in person because you're more likely to comply with the expectations of not checking your phone and things of that sort and being silent.
但当然，我认为亲自这样做可能更有益，因为你更有可能遵守不检查手机之类的东西并保持沉默的期望。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm always impressed by people that can sort of self-direct so much discipline.
我总是对那些能够自我指导这么多自律的人印象深刻。
It's pretty cool.
非常酷。
I have rules in my house.
我家里有规矩。
I have a study area in my basement where I draw and prepare podcasts, and I don't allow phones down there, mine or anyone else's.
我的地下室有一个学习区，我在那里画画和准备播客，我不允许在那里使用手机，无论是我的还是其他人的。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
That's wonderful.
太棒了。
I love that.
我喜欢那个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's an electronic-free zone.
这是一个无电子区。
I like working out.
我喜欢锻炼。
It's a pleasure for me.
这对我来说是一种荣幸。
And I have a gym, and I noticed that my workouts would take much longer if I brought my phone in.
我有一个健身房，我注意到如果我把手机带进去，我的锻炼时间会更长。
So now I allow myself to turn on an album or two and leave the phone outside, but there's no phones allowed there either.
所以现在我允许自己打开一两张专辑并将手机留在外面，但那里也不允许使用手机。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And now I'm thinking about also making that the rule for the loft for the bedroom.
现在我正在考虑将这一规则也作为卧室阁楼的规则。
No phones.
没有电话。
So there's fewer and fewer areas where- ...
所以越来越少的区域——...
things are allowed.
事情是允许的。
But I think unless you set real constraints, that it just starts to permeate everywhere.
但我认为，除非你设定真正的限制，否则它就会开始渗透到各处。
And I don't think I'm alone in that.
我不认为我是唯一一个这样做的人。
And I grew up in Silicon Valley, so I'm not anti-technology.
我在硅谷长大，所以我并不反科技。
I want to have the richest experience of life possible, and so I just find that harder and harder to do when it's like inviting all these other things and people into the room when you have a phone there.
我希望拥有尽可能丰富的生活体验，所以我发现这越来越难做到，就像当你有电话时邀请所有其他事物和人进入房间一样。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Well, I love those examples, and I think you are setting an inspiring example for others.
嗯，我喜欢这些例子，我认为你正在为其他人树立一个鼓舞人心的榜样。
And I think that things have gotten so bad with the deleterious impact of technology that we've been led to do those kinds of things, which I think are so important, and I think the more examples of that, the better.
我认为，由于技术的有害影响，事情已经变得如此糟糕，以至于我们被迫做这些事情，我认为这些事情非常重要，而且我认为这样的例子越多越好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I feel like it took us a while to become the country with such excessively high rates of obesity that we finally went, "Oh my goodness," and "We need to do something about this." So better eating, exercise, of course, critical.
是的，我觉得我们花了一段时间才成为肥胖率如此之高的国家，以至于我们最终说，“天哪”，“我们需要对此做点什么。”所以更好的饮食、锻炼当然很关键。
The GLP drugs, I believe, have been very helpful for a lot of people.
我相信 GLP 药物对很多人都非常有帮助。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I would hope people first embrace lifestyle tools and in any case embrace lifestyle tools.
我希望人们首先拥抱生活方式工具，并且无论如何都拥抱生活方式工具。
But I don't think we're going to have the so-called Ozempic for addiction to devices.
但我认为我们不会因为对设备上瘾而出现所谓的“Ozempic”。
There isn't going to be something to come along and knock us off that place.
不会有什么事情发生，把我们从那个地方击倒。
I think it just requires a lot of self-control.
我认为这只是需要很强的自我控制能力。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I can promise everyone that your workouts get way better.
但我可以向大家保证，你的锻炼会变得更好。
Way better.
好多了。
Your work gets way better.
你的工作会变得更好。
I actually think that for the younger generation, it's become easier than ever to excel simply by not doing a lot of the things that other people around you are doing.
事实上，我认为对于年轻一代来说，只要不做周围其他人正在做的很多事情，就比以往任何时候都更容易脱颖而出。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Totally.
完全可以。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It used to be, "How do I succeed?
过去常常是这样的：“我怎样才能成功？
How do I succeed?" And I'm joking these days, the shortest how to become the best at your craft book is going to be by turning off your phone 22 hours a day.
我怎样才能成功？”这些天我开玩笑说，要成为最优秀的手工艺书，最短的方法就是每天 22 小时关闭手机。
You will become best in class.
你将成为班上最好的。
I know it.
我知道这。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I absolutely know it.
我绝对知道。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And people say, "Well, then you can't access certain things." There are ways around it.
人们会说：“好吧，那么你就无法访问某些东西了。”有办法解决这个问题。
Because it's really the presence that you bring to things that Allows you to be effective.
因为正是你在事情上的存在才让你变得高效。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
And regarding self-control, I think that self-control is a trainable skill.
至于自控力，我认为自控力是一种可以训练的技能。
And it is a byproduct of flourishing.
它是繁荣的副产品。
And one of the central capacities, we talked about meta-awareness earlier, and I think meta-awareness is really a key ingredient for self-control.
作为核心能力之一，我们之前谈到了元意识，我认为元意识确实是自我控制的关键要素。
And self-control or self-regulation will improve as a consequence of that.
自我控制或自我调节将会因此得到改善。
And that's a superpower.
这是一种超能力。
There was a study done by these two psychologists, Moffitt and Caspi, who are developmental sort of lifespan psychologists, and they've been studying this cohort in Dunedin, New Zealand.
莫菲特和卡斯皮这两位心理学家进行了一项研究，他们是发展型寿命心理学家，他们一直在新西兰但尼丁研究这个队列。
It's a birth cohort.
这是一个出生队列。
So these folks have been studied since birth.
所以这些人从出生起就被研究过。
They're now, I think, in their 60s.
我想他们现在已经 60 多岁了。
But there's amazing longitudinal data on these people.
但关于这些人有惊人的纵向数据。
And they had a paper in PNAS a number of years ago that looked at behavioral measures of self-control in this cohort when these people were four and five years of age.
几年前，他们在《美国国家科学院院刊》上发表了一篇论文，研究了这些人四五岁时的自我控制行为测量。
This particular paper was looking at outcomes when they were 32 years of age.
这篇特别的论文着眼于他们 32 岁时的结果。
And what they found is that the individuals who are in the upper quintile of self-control at four and five years of age had significantly less drug abuse, were significantly less likely to be involved in court proceedings.
他们发现，四岁和五岁时自制力处于前五分之一的人滥用药物的情况明显较少，参与法庭诉讼的可能性也明显较低。
They earned, on average, 6,000 US dollars more per year, and they were matched on socioeconomic status of their families of birth.
他们平均每年多赚 6,000 美元，而且他们出生家庭的社会经济地位也相匹配。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So they're more successful.
所以他们更成功。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
More successful.
更成功。
So all these amazing outcomes.
所以所有这些令人惊奇的结果。
This paper was published many years ago, but I remember there's a line in the paper that says, "Strategies which will improve self-control will lead to all these important outcomes and save taxpayers money."
这篇论文是很多年前发表的，但我记得论文中有一句话是这样说的：“提高自我控制的策略将带来所有这些重要的成果，并节省纳税人的钱。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Waking Up.
我想短暂休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一“醒来”。
Waking Up is a meditation app that offers hundreds of guided meditation programs, mindfulness trainings, yoga nidra sessions, and more.
Waking Up 是一款冥想应用程序，提供数百个引导冥想计划、正念训练、瑜伽休息课程等。
I started practicing meditation when I was about 15 years old, and it made a profound impact on my life.
我大约15岁的时候开始练习冥想，它对我的生活产生了深远的影响。
And by now, there are thousands of quality peer-reviewed studies that emphasize how useful mindfulness meditation can be for improving our focus, managing stress and anxiety, improving our mood, and much more.
到目前为止，已有数以千计的高质量同行评审研究强调正念冥想对于提高我们的注意力、管理压力和焦虑、改善我们的情绪等等有多么有用。
In recent years, I started using the Waking Up app for my meditations because I find it to be a terrific resource for allowing me to really be consistent with my meditation practice.
近年来，我开始使用“Waking Up”应用程序进行冥想，因为我发现它是一个很棒的资源，可以让我真正坚持我的冥想练习。
Many people start a meditation practice and experience some benefits, but many people also have challenges keeping up with that practice.
许多人开始冥想练习并体验到一些好处，但许多人也面临着跟上练习的挑战。
What I and so many other people love about the Waking Up app is that it has a lot of different meditations to choose from, and those meditations are of different durations.
我和许多其他人喜欢“醒来”应用程序的原因是它有很多不同的冥想可供选择，而且这些冥想的持续时间也不同。
So it makes it very easy to keep up with your meditation practice, both from the perspective of novelty, you never get tired of those meditations.
所以它让你很容易跟上你的冥想练习，无论是从新奇的角度来看，你永远不会厌倦这些冥想。
There's always something new to explore and to learn about yourself and about the effectiveness of meditation.
总有一些新的东西值得探索和了解你自己以及冥想的有效性。
And you can always fit meditation into your schedule, even if you only have two or three minutes per day in which to meditate.
即使您每天只有两到三分钟的时间进行冥想，您也可以随时将冥想纳入您的日程安排中。
If you'd like to try the Waking Up app, please go to wakingup.com/huberman, where you can access a free 30-day trial.
如果您想尝试 Waking Up 应用程序，请访问 wakingup.com/huberman，在这里您可以免费试用 30 天。
Again, that's wakingup.com/huberman to access a free 30-day trial.
同样，访问 wakingup.com/huberman 即可获得 30 天免费试用。
Super impressive, and I do think that nowadays we hear so much about the dos.
超级令人印象深刻，我确实认为现在我们听到了很多关于 dos 的内容。
You exercise, you eat this, and five minutes a day meditation.
你锻炼身体，吃这个，然后每天冥想五分钟。
I think the self-control component that's an outgrowth of meditation seems like a distinct benefit of meditation.
我认为自我控制是冥想的产物，这似乎是冥想的一个明显好处。
Because when you're exercising, I suppose if you really hate it and you're constantly forcing yourself not to quit, that's a form of self-control.
因为当你锻炼时，我想如果你真的讨厌它并且不断强迫自己不要放弃，那就是一种自我控制的形式。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I feel like most people, once they get going, they're kind of moving through it, but who knows?
我觉得大多数人一旦开始行动，就会渡过难关，但谁知道呢？
I do want to use this notion of self-control as an opportunity to look at the other side of it.
我确实想利用这种自我控制的概念作为一个机会来看看它的另一面。
And I was planning on doing this at some point.
我正计划在某个时候这样做。
I think now's the point.
我想现在就是重点了。
I'm fundamentally confused about something about life.
我从根本上对生活中的一些事情感到困惑。
Maybe you can help me.
也许你可以帮助我。
I'm still not sure how much of a really good life should be forcing ourselves to do things versus kind of, quote-unquote, "honoring what's right for us." Now, obviously, with respect to morality, with respect to the big stuff in life, those are easy answers, okay?
我仍然不确定真正美好的生活应该在多大程度上强迫自己做事，而不是“尊重对我们来说正确的事情”。现在，显然，对于道德，对于生活中的大事，这些都是简单的答案，好吗？
But when it comes to moving through the day, we're now talking here today about starting the day doing something that you probably don't want to do or that you would reflexively not do as a means to gain some other larger benefit.
但说到如何度过这一天，我们今天在这里讨论的是，在新的一天开始时，做一些你可能不想做的事情，或者你本能地不会做的事情，以此来获得其他更大的利益。
We're talking about going against the reflex, against the impulse.
我们谈论的是对抗本能、对抗冲动。
In the Buddhist traditions, in the field of meditation, how is this kind of thought about?
在佛教的传统中，在禅修的领域里，这种思想是怎样的？
And just personally, how do you think about this?
就个人而言，您对此有何看法？
Because I think a lot of people listening are probably thinking, "Okay, great.
因为我认为很多人在听时可能会想：“好吧，太棒了。
I'll do this if it gives me some benefits.
如果这能给我带来一些好处，我就会这样做。
I'll lower my heart rate.
我会降低心率。
I'll have less stress.
我的压力会更小。
I'll learn some additional self-control." But I think people are also feeling overwhelmed with all the stuff they feel like they have to do and fight themselves.
我会学会一些额外的自我控制。”但我认为人们也对所有他们觉得必须做的事情和与自己斗争的事情感到不知所措。
And I think people are tired of fighting.
我认为人们已经厌倦了战斗。
And I think part of the reason they're tired of fighting is that they're not picking up the phone and going, "Oh, this is cool.
我认为他们厌倦战斗的部分原因是他们没有拿起电话说：“哦，这很酷。
This is great." I think that they feel slightly out of control, that they just can't resist it, and it's just happening.
这太棒了。”我认为他们感觉有点失控，他们就是无法抗拒，而这一切就这样发生了。
And so we've lost the muscle, so to speak, the mental muscle of overcoming resistance.
因此，我们已经失去了克服阻力的力量，可以说是精神力量。
But it's also kind of a philosophical question.
但这也是一个哲学问题。
How much of our lives should we be forcing things upon ourselves to be better, and how much of life should we just live and be free like a bulldog, which is the best breed of dog?
我们生活中有多少时间应该强迫自己变得更好，又有多少时间应该像斗牛犬一样自由地生活，斗牛犬是最好的狗品种？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
When I first started meditating, I was fighting with my mind.
当我第一次开始冥想时，我一直在与自己的头脑作斗争。
And I thought that that was great.
我认为那太好了。
This means I'm really doing the work that's necessary and sitting through the physical pain, forcing myself to sit for an hour while feeling like my knee was on fire, and my back was killing me.
这意味着我确实在做必要的工作，并忍受着身体上的疼痛，强迫自己坐了一个小时，同时感觉我的膝盖着火了，我的背痛得要命。
And I had a kind of sense of pride.
我有一种自豪感。
I'm able to just tough this out.
我能坚持下去。
And I was miserable.
我很痛苦。
I did that kind of practice for quite some time, and it may have had some benefit in shaping my skills of self-control.
我做了相当长一段时间的这种练习，它可能对我的自控能力的培养有一些好处。
But at some point, I discovered that maybe there's another strategy that can be effective that's not about fighting with your mind and not about fixing anything, but the invitation is really to make friends with your mind, to welcome this, to have a completely different stance toward it, and to do it with ease rather than with this kind of attention-ridden stance.
但在某些时候，我发现也许还有另一种有效的策略，不是与你的思想作斗争，也不是解决任何问题，而是邀请你真正与你的思想交朋友，欢迎这一点，对它采取完全不同的立场，轻松地做到这一点，而不是采取这种全神贯注的立场。
I think that that is possible.
我认为这是可能的。
And the approach that we are taking in the Healthy Minds program, for example, is we're trying to do that.
例如，我们在“健康思想”计划中采取的方法就是我们正在努力做到这一点。
So there is a bit of discipline involved, but it's really at the most minimal.
因此，这涉及到一些纪律，但实际上是最低限度的。
It's inviting people to be where they are and to really make friends with their mind, and not to fight against it.
它邀请人们就在他们所在的地方，真正与他们的思想交朋友，而不是与之对抗。
It's not about pushing away thoughts.
这并不是要赶走想法。
It's not about sitting down to meditate.
这不是坐下来冥想。
If you're restless and can't sit, that's fine.
如果您坐立不安且无法坐下，那也没关系。
Do it while you're walking.
当你走路的时候就这样做。
So the discipline is the intentional use of the mind.
因此，纪律就是有意识地运用头脑。
And there is discipline involved in that, but it's kind of what is the minimum level of discipline to begin to get these networks going?
这涉及到纪律，但要开始让这些网络运转起来，最低限度的纪律是什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
And that's kind of the question that we've asked.
这就是我们提出的问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, because your lab has been focused heavily on the neuroimaging and understanding what brain networks are activated, as well as the positive outcomes.
是的，因为你的实验室一直专注于神经影像学和了解哪些大脑网络被激活，以及积极的结果。
So this five-minute-a-day meditation could be done eyes open, could be done eyes closed.
因此，每天五分钟的冥想可以睁着眼睛进行，也可以闭着眼睛进行。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Could be done while you're walking, while you're commuting.
可以在步行或通勤时完成。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it shuts down the sort of default mode network and brings higher levels of activity in these awareness, attentional networks.
它关闭了默认模式网络，并在这些意识、注意力网络中带来了更高水平的活动。
Is that-- Broadly speaking.
是不是——从广义上讲。
I'm a neuroscientist, but I want to translate this for people with feelings.
我是一名神经科学家，但我想将其翻译给有感情的人。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because the names of the structures actually are somewhat meaningless, right?
因为结构的名称实际上有点没有意义，对吧？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Unless we're-
除非我们——
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Exactly
正是如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
we've got someone in a stereotax, right?
我们有人在立体定位，对吧？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So yeah.
所以是的。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Just to be transparently honest, there's been very little imaging work on the five minutes per day.
老实说，每天五分钟的成像工作很少。
We've done some, and what we've seen in the work we've done is the biggest, and in general, I think this is true, the biggest changes that you see, particularly in the early stages of practice, are in measures of connectivity.
我们已经做了一些，我们在所做的工作中看到的是最大的，总的来说，我认为这是事实，你看到的最大的变化，特别是在实践的早期阶段，是在连通性方面。
And it could be functional connectivity, which has to do with the functional integration across different networks, or it could be in measures of actual structural connectivity that we can image with diffusion-weighted imaging, and looking at white matter connectivity.
它可能是功能连接，这与不同网络之间的功能集成有关，或者它可能是实际结构连接的测量，我们可以使用扩散加权成像来成像，并观察白质连接。
And what we've actually seen with the five minutes a day is changes in diffusion-weighted imaging looking at-- The biggest change we see is in the superior longitudinal fasciculus, which, as you know, Andrew, connects the prefrontal and the parietal regions, and it's basically a major pathway through which the central executive network is interacting with the default mode.
我们每天花五分钟实际看到的是弥散加权成像的变化——我们看到的最大变化是上纵束，安德鲁，正如你所知，它连接前额叶和顶叶区域，它基本上是中央执行网络与默认模式相互作用的主要途径。
And that's what we see with just five minutes a day of practice.
这就是我们每天只需练习五分钟就能看到的结果。
We can see measurable changes in diffusion-weighted parameters with just five minutes a day for a month.
一个月内，每天只需五分钟，我们就可以看到扩散加权参数的可测量变化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's super impressive.
真是太令人印象深刻了。
More and more incentive to doing the five-minute-a-day meditation.
越来越多的人愿意每天进行五分钟的冥想。
I guess that's the protocol we're weaving through this entire episode.
我想这就是我们在整个情节中编织的协议。
And of course, people could do seven, could do 10.
当然，人们可以做七个，也可以做十个。
I'd like to see people do six months every day.
我希望看到人们每天都坚持六个月。
That would be impressive.
那将令人印象深刻。
That's what I'm going to shoot for.
这就是我要拍摄的目标。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Six months every day?
六个月每天？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Just do five minutes a day for, hit 30 days.
每天只做五分钟，坚持30天。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Ah.
啊。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then six months later, I don't know.
六个月后，我不知道。
I feel like if it's just the repeated showing up, that's really it.
我觉得如果只是重复出现，那就真的是这样了。
I have a prayer practice I do every night before I go to sleep.
我每天晚上睡觉前都会进行祈祷练习。
If I fall asleep, I get out of bed.
如果我睡着了，我就会起床。
My girlfriend knows this.
我女朋友知道这一点。
I get out of bed, and I pray.
我起床祈祷。
I've not missed a night since I started doing this.
自从我开始这样做以来，我没有错过过一个晚上。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
I love that.
我喜欢那个。
I think that's beautiful.
我觉得那很美。
And I'd love to see a study done with priestly prayer and see how it affects sleep.
我很乐意看到一项关于牧师祈祷的研究，看看它如何影响睡眠。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My sleep is definitely better than ever, but there are probably a variety of reasons for that.
我的睡眠肯定比以往任何时候都好，但这可能有多种原因。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
I'm sure.
我确定。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But sometimes I find that I'm falling asleep while I'm praying.
但有时我发现我在祈祷时睡着了。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I just tell myself, "Okay, it's the consistency." It's like I have this script in my head that I'm showing devotion by showing up.
我只是告诉自己，“好吧，这就是一致性。”就像我脑子里有这个剧本一样，我通过出现来表达奉献精神。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's just the repeated showing up, and it's one of the few areas of my life that I was able to really remove the need to do it perfectly.
这只是重复出现，这是我生活中为数不多的几个我能够真正消除需要完美完成的领域之一。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What would that even look like?
那会是什么样子？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I realize how ridiculous that is, right?
我意识到这有多么可笑，对吧？
But some perfectionist tendencies in me were showing up.
但我身上的一些完美主义倾向已经显现出来。
So for me, the I won't even say the pride in it, the joy in it is from the consistency.
所以对我来说，我什至不会说其中的自豪，其中的快乐来自于一致性。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah, I love that.
是的，我喜欢那个。
And I feel exactly the same way in my consistent practice.
在我一贯的实践中，我也有同样的感觉。
I think that's so important.
我认为这非常重要。
I wanted to mention one thing about sleepiness, because you mentioned that sometimes when you're doing the nightly prayer, you're sleepy.
我想提一件事关于困倦，因为你提到有时当你做夜间祈祷时，你会困倦。
And sleepiness is often something reported when people are meditating, and particularly in the early stages of practice.
当人们冥想时，特别是在练习的早期阶段，经常会出现困倦的情况。
And I've dealt with sleepiness a lot, and particularly before I changed my routine and when I gave up the alarm clock because I was getting too little sleep.
我经常遇到困倦的问题，特别是在我改变生活习惯之前，以及因为睡眠太少而放弃闹钟时。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, you were sleep deprived.
是的，你睡眠不足。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
And I felt it, and I struggled with it.
我感觉到了，并且为此挣扎。
So I have this meditation teacher, Mingyur Rinpoche, who one of the things he's taught is sleepiness meditation.
所以我有一位冥想老师，明就仁波切，他所教授的内容之一就是睡眠冥想。
And sleepiness meditation is simply to be aware of sleepiness.
睡禅只是觉知睡意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Just be aware of sleepiness, and don't try to fight it.
只要意识到困倦，不要试图对抗它。
Just simply notice what is sleepiness?
只需注意什么是困倦？
How is it feeling?
感觉如何？
And investigate it with curiosity.
并带着好奇心去探究它。
And that completely changed things for me.
这彻底改变了我的一切。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There just seemed to be this thing where when we fight our state or our nature, it gains power.
似乎有这样一种东西，当我们与我们的国家或我们的自然作斗争时，它就会获得力量。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We don't want to give into it, but when you acknowledge it, but you don't completely give into it, somehow it changes.
我们不想屈服于它，但是当你承认它，但你没有完全屈服于它时，它就会以某种方式改变。
Martha Beck was the first person to really teach me this, first in her books and then on the podcast.
玛莎·贝克是第一个真正教我这一点的人，首先是在她的书中，然后是在播客上。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This idea that if a feeling sucks or you don't want it to be there, that rather than trying to suppress it, you really look at it and let yourself feel it until it changes shape just a little bit, her language.
这种想法是，如果一种感觉很糟糕，或者你不希望它存在，你不要试图压抑它，而是真正地看着它，让自己感受它，直到它的形状稍微改变，她的语言。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then you start to look at it through that slightly different lens.
然后你开始通过稍微不同的镜头来看待它。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then it morphs and it goes away.
然后它变形并消失。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think in her, I again, didn't describe it as well as she did or would or could, but what we're talking about over and over again today is the mind looking at the mind, and it does seem to have this ability to, humans have this ability.
我认为在她身上，我再次没有像她所做的、愿意的或能够的那样描述它，但我们今天一遍又一遍地谈论的是心灵观察心灵，它似乎确实有这种能力，人类有这种能力。
Do you think other animals have this ability?
你认为其他动物有这种能力吗？
I know you can't answer that question for sure, but do you think one of the reasons dogs are so wonderful is because they're not self-conscious?
我知道你不能肯定地回答这个问题，但你认为狗如此美妙的原因之一是因为它们没有自我意识吗？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
My conjecture is that our ability to look at our minds is way more developed than in any other species.
我的推测是，我们观察自己思想的能力比任何其他物种都要发达得多。
And there may be some rudimentary kinds of meta-awareness in other species, and some scientists have suggested that it may be correlated with successful performance on the self-test, recognizing yourself in the mirror.
其他物种中可能存在一些基本的元意识，一些科学家认为这可能与自我测试的成功表现相关，即在镜子中认出自己。
There's a recent report of elephants passing the self-test.
最近有报道称大象通过了自检。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
So they are smart after all.
所以他们毕竟很聪明。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
And that's an interesting story.
这是一个有趣的故事。
They did this actually in the Bronx Zoo in New York, and they had to construct a mirror that was the size of an elephant to-
他们实际上是在纽约布朗克斯动物园做到了这一点，他们必须建造一面大象大小的镜子，以便——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How do they know if the elephant knows it's itself?
他们怎么知道大象是否知道自己是自己？
Because they don't attack it if it's itself?
因为如果它本身他们就不会攻击它？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
So they put rouge-
所以他们涂了胭脂——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm
嗯
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
...
...
on the trunk, and they expose the elephant to the mirror.
然后他们把大象放在镜子前。
And if the elephant touches the point where the rouge is, it's recognizing itself in the mirror.
如果大象触摸了胭脂所在的点，它就在镜子中认出了自己。
And there are very few species that pass the self-test in that way.
而能通过这种方式自我检验的物种却很少。
Most species don't.
大多数物种没有。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We were talking offline a little bit earlier about a course that you're teaching about this very thing that you're calling flourishing.
我们之前在线下讨论过您正在教授的一门课程，内容正是您所说的繁荣。
So what do the students get in that course, and what components could you possibly educate us on right here, right now, so that we can benefit without having the opportunity to take the course?
那么，学生们从这门课程中学到了什么？您现在可以在这里向我们传授哪些内容，以便我们在没有机会参加该课程的情况下也能受益？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
So the course is built on a framework that we've developed on the plasticity of flourishing.
因此，这门课程是建立在我们根据繁荣的可塑性开发的框架之上的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
It holds that there are four key pillars of human flourishing, and each of these pillars exhibits plasticity.
它认为人类繁荣有四个关键支柱，每个支柱都表现出可塑性。
And these are the key trainable ingredients that constitute human flourishing.
这些是构成人类繁荣的关键可训练成分。
So what are these four pillars?
那么这四大支柱是什么呢？
The first pillar is, and we've talked about some in the course of our conversation already, but the first we call awareness.
第一个支柱是，我们已经在谈话过程中讨论了一些，但第一个我们称之为意识。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
And awareness is where mindfulness would be.
意识就是正念所在的地方。
It's where voluntary attention, the capacity to focus resides, and it also includes our capacity for self-awareness and for meta-awareness, which we've spoken about.
这是自愿注意力、集中注意力的能力所在，它还包括我们已经谈到的自我意识和元意识的能力。
The second pillar we call connection.
第二个支柱我们称之为连接。
And connection is about the qualities which are important for healthy social relationships, qualities like appreciation and gratitude and kindness and compassion.
联系是关于对健康的社会关系很重要的品质，比如欣赏、感激、善良和同情心。
You can think of the opposite of that being, at least in part, social isolation and loneliness.
你可以想象这种存在的对立面，至少部分是社会孤立和孤独。
Again, these are elements that we know can be trained.
同样，这些是我们知道可以训练的元素。
They are importantly connected to our wellbeing.
它们与我们的福祉密切相关。
The third pillar we call insight.
第三个支柱我们称之为洞察力。
And insight is about a curiosity-driven understanding of the narrative that all human beings have about themselves, the narrative that we carry around in our minds.
洞察力是一种好奇心驱动的对所有人关于自己的叙述的理解，这些叙述是我们脑海中所承载的叙述。
And we know that we all have a set of beliefs and expectations of ourselves.
我们知道我们都有一套自己的信念和期望。
And we know that at one extreme of the continuum, there are people that have very negative beliefs and expectations of themselves, and of course, that's a prescription for depression.
我们知道，在连续体的一个极端，有些人对自己抱有非常消极的信念和期望，当然，这是治疗抑郁症的处方。
But what's really critical for wellbeing is not so much changing the narrative, particularly at first, but it's changing our relationship to the narrative-
但对于幸福来说真正关键的并不是改变叙事，尤其是在一开始，而是改变我们与叙事的关系——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
...
...
so that we can see the narrative for what it is, which is a set of beliefs and thoughts and expectations.
这样我们就能看到叙事的本质，它是一系列信念、想法和期望。
And then finally, the last pillar is purpose.
最后，最后一个支柱是目标。
And purpose here is not necessarily about finding something grand to do with your life that's more meaningful and purposeful, but rather how can we find meaning and purpose in even the most pedestrian activities of daily living?
这里的目的并不一定是要找到一些与你的生活相关的更有意义、更有目的的事情，而是我们如何才能在日常生活中最平庸的活动中找到意义和目的？
And we actually talked about some of this earlier, but can taking out the garbage be Connected to our sense of purpose.
事实上，我们之前已经讨论过其中的一些内容，但倒垃圾是否可以与我们的使命感联系起来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Cleaning the kitty litter.
清理猫砂。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Cleaning the kitty litter.
清理猫砂。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
And of course it can be.
当然可以。
It just requires a little bit of reframing, and that's a learnable skill.
它只需要一点点重构，这是一项可以学习的技能。
There are really three things that we've discovered in this work that can be easily summarized.
我们在这项工作中发现了三件事，可以很容易地总结出来。
The first is that flourishing is a skill, the second is that it's easier than you think, and the third is that flourishing is contagious, so that when you're flourishing, it's going to have beneficial impact on the people around you.
第一是繁荣是一种技能，第二是它比你想象的更容易，第三是繁荣是具有传染性的，所以当你繁荣时，它会对你周围的人产生有益的影响。
And our course, "The Art and Science of Human Flourishing," is built on each of these pillars to give students not just an intellectual understanding, but an experiential practice, a taste of what these pillars actually are.
我们的课程“人类繁荣的艺术与科学”建立在这些支柱的基础上，不仅让学生有智力上的理解，而且让学生进行体验式实践，领略这些支柱的实际含义。
One of the important insights that the course is built on is that there are two major forms of learning that we know from modern neuroscience.
该课程所基于的重要见解之一是，我们从现代神经科学中了解到两种主要的学习形式。
One we can think of as declarative learning, which is learning about stuff.
我们可以将其视为陈述性学习，即学习事物。
It's conceptual learning.
这是概念性学习。
The other we call procedural learning, and procedural learning is learning that is skill-based, it's acquired through practice, and we know that it's instantiated in different brain networks compared to declarative learning.
另一种我们称之为程序性学习，程序性学习是基于技能的学习，它是通过实践获得的，我们知道与陈述性学习相比，它在不同的大脑网络中实例化。
And human flourishing requires both.
人类的繁荣需要两者。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
And most of the academy privileges declarative learning over procedural learning.
大多数学院都优先考虑陈述性学习而不是程序性学习。
And so this course that we teach is an unusual course because it includes a lab every week, so to speak, a little section where students do the procedural learning for the stuff that they're learning declaratively in the lecture part of the class.
因此，我们教授的这门课程是一门不寻常的课程，因为它每周都包括一个实验室，可以说，这是一个小部分，学生可以在其中对他们在课堂讲座部分中声明性学习的内容进行程序性学习。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love that.
我喜欢那个。
I've long wanted to do a course that had information and practices involved.
我长期以来一直想开设一门包含信息和实践的课程。
Sounds like you've built that course.
听起来您已经建立了该课程。
If people who are not able to take the course wanted to access these different bins with some practical tools, you already gave us a tool for awareness, so meditation, five minutes would be a great place to start, done daily.
If people who are not able to take the course wanted to access these different bins with some practical tools, you already gave us a tool for awareness, so meditation, five minutes would be a great place to start, done daily.
And just to be aware of the chaos and be able to observe it, but not follow it.
只是要意识到混乱并能够观察它，但不能跟随它。
How does one incorporate connection?
如何整合连接？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
So I actually talked a little bit about connection earlier, but there's a lot more to say.
事实上，我之前已经谈过一些关于连接的问题，但还有很多东西要说。
But one kind of connection is doing a little appreciation practice when we eat.
但一种联系是在吃饭时进行一些欣赏练习。
That's one I talked about earlier.
这是我之前谈到的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it.
明白了。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Where we connect to the people, even if we don't know them-
我们与人们建立联系的地方，即使我们不认识他们 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
...
...
who have brought us food to the table.
他们把食物送到我们的餐桌上。
Some we may know, some we might not know.
有些我们可能知道，有些我们可能不知道。
There are formal kinds of connection practices.
有多种正式的连接实践。
There are meditation practices that we call loving kindness and compassion practices.
有一些冥想练习，我们称之为慈心和同情心练习。
And so we've shown in a randomized control trial that just a few hours of this practice over two weeks is sufficient to produce a measurable change in the brain.
And so we've shown in a randomized control trial that just a few hours of this practice over two weeks is sufficient to produce a measurable change in the brain.
And so here's a way you can do this.
这是一种可以做到这一点的方法。
You can begin with a loved one and bring the loved one into your mind and your heart and envision a time in their life when they may have had some challenge or difficulty, and then cultivate the strong aspiration that they be relieved of that difficulty and that they have a life of ease.
You can begin with a loved one and bring the loved one into your mind and your heart and envision a time in their life when they may have had some challenge or difficulty, and then cultivate the strong aspiration that they be relieved of that difficulty and that they have a life of ease.
That's it.
就是这样。
And you can use a simple phrase that you can repeat to yourself that embodies, that captures that theme.
你可以使用一个简单的短语，你可以对自己重复这个短语来体现、捕捉这个主题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
It could be something as simple as, "May you be happy.
它可以很简单，比如“祝你幸福。
May you be free of suffering." But the words don't matter, whatever words are most well-suited for each person.
愿你离苦得乐。”但用什么词并不重要，最适合每个人的词就可以了。
But then you move on to different categories of people.
但随后你会转向不同类别的人。
So you start with a loved one.
所以你从一个所爱的人开始。
You then move on to yourself.
然后你继续自己。
You then move on to a category of person that we call a stranger, and a stranger is someone you recognize, whose face you recognize, but you don't know them well.
You then move on to a category of person that we call a stranger, and a stranger is someone you recognize, whose face you recognize, but you don't know them well.
It could be someone that works in the same building that you work in.
可能是与您在同一栋大楼工作的人。
It could be a classmate.
It could be a classmate.
It could be a bus driver.
可能是公交车司机。
It could be the cashier at a local store that you go to, a barista.
可能是您去的当地商店的收银员、咖啡师。
You don't know anything about them, but you recognize them, and you can envision a time in their life when they may have had some difficulty, even if you don't know anything about their life.
你对他们一无所知，但你认得他们，你可以想象他们生活中可能遇到一些困难的时期，即使你对他们的生活一无所知。
So you do that with a stranger, and then finally, you move on to what's probably the most important category, which is a difficult person.
所以你对一个陌生人这样做，最后，你转向可能是最重要的类别，这是一个很难相处的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Someone who pushes your buttons.
按下你按钮的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
And you genuinely bring them into your mind and your heart, and you recognize a time, you imagine a time when they have been having some challenge, and you cultivate the aspiration that they be relieved of that suffering.
And you genuinely bring them into your mind and your heart, and you recognize a time, you imagine a time when they have been having some challenge, and you cultivate the aspiration that they be relieved of that suffering.
And that practice, just done a few minutes a day, can change your brain, and it changes your behavior.
这种练习，每天只需进行几分钟，就可以改变你的大脑，并改变你的行为。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it changes the brain how?
它如何改变大脑？
Makes it capable of more empathy?
让它更有同理心吗？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
So one of the key regions of the brain that's been implicated in empathy is the temporoparietal junction.
因此，大脑中与同理心有关的关键区域之一是颞顶交界处。
What we see is that in this kind of compassion practice, there's significantly enhanced activation of the temporoparietal junction, particularly in response to stimuli of people in distress.
What we see is that in this kind of compassion practice, there's significantly enhanced activation of the temporoparietal junction, particularly in response to stimuli of people in distress.
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
There's also networks in the brain that are involved in positive affect that are Activated by this kind of practice.
大脑中也有一些网络参与通过这种练习激活的积极情绪。
And behaviorally, we've shown using hard-nosed tasks that are derived from behavioral economics and neuroeconomics, we actually have demonstrated, and other scientists have demonstrated this, that people behave more altruistically using these hard-nosed behavioral measures.
And behaviorally, we've shown using hard-nosed tasks that are derived from behavioral economics and neuroeconomics, we actually have demonstrated, and other scientists have demonstrated this, that people behave more altruistically using these hard-nosed behavioral measures.
We've also shown that on a hard-nosed behavioral measure of implicit bias, that there's significant reductions in implicit bias, and those reductions are sustained for at least six months after the formal period of practice ends.
我们还表明，根据对隐性偏见的顽固行为测量，隐性偏见显着减少，并且这些减少在正式练习期结束后至少持续六个月。
So there's really hard-nosed evidence to suggest that both the brain and behavior change.
因此，确实有确凿的证据表明大脑和行为都会发生变化。
So the third pillar, insight, is really about-- and I should say, just backing up for a moment, that two of these pillars, connection and purpose, are found in virtually every other framework for understanding wellbeing.
So the third pillar, insight, is really about-- and I should say, just backing up for a moment, that two of these pillars, connection and purpose, are found in virtually every other framework for understanding wellbeing.
Two of them are unique.
Two of them are unique.
And the two that are unique are awareness and insight.
其中两个独特之处是意识和洞察力。
And I should just go back to awareness for one moment to just point out one other thing.
我应该暂时回到意识中来指出另一件事。
There was a very famous study that was published in "Science" many, many years ago by Killingsworth and Gilbert, two psychologists at Harvard.
很多很多年前，哈佛大学的两位心理学家基林斯沃思和吉尔伯特在《科学》杂志上发表了一项非常著名的研究。
And they did a study with around 3,000 people, and they texted them at different points during the day with their consent over the course of several days, and they asked three questions.
And they did a study with around 3,000 people, and they texted them at different points during the day with their consent over the course of several days, and they asked three questions.
The first question they asked people is, "What are you doing right now?" And they checked off from a list of activities.
他们问人们的第一个问题是：“你现在在做什么？”他们核对了一份活动清单。
Second question is, "Where is your mind right now when I queried?" And the third question is, "Right at this moment, how happy or unhappy are you?" And the finding from this study, the two key findings are that the average adult on these measures reports that they're not paying attention to what they're doing 47% of the time.
第二个问题是：“当我询问时，你现在的心思在哪里？”第三个问题是，此时此刻，你有多快乐或多不快乐？这项研究的两个关键发现是，接受这些测量的成年人平均有 47% 的时间没有注意自己正在做的事情。
And when they're not paying attention to what they're doing, they're significantly less happy.
当他们不注意自己正在做的事情时，他们的快乐程度就会明显降低。
Even if what they're doing is boring.
Even if what they're doing is boring.
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Even if what they're doing is washing the dishes.
即使他们正在做的只是洗碗。
If their mind is distracted, they're less happy.
If their mind is distracted, they're less happy.
And the title of this paper is "A Wandering Mind is an Unhappy Mind."
这篇论文的标题是“游离的心灵是不快乐的心灵”。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Does that mean that a focused mind is a happy mind or a happier mind?
这是否意味着专注的头脑就是快乐的头脑或者更快乐的头脑？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
I would say a happier mind, but not necessarily happy.
我会说心灵更快乐，但不一定快乐。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love that study.
I love that study.
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I'm sure you know it well.
I'm sure you know it well.
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Ever more important with each year that we have more opportunities for distraction.
一年比一年重要的是，我们有更多的分散注意力的机会。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which also, to be fair to social media, means that if you want to sit down with your phone and handle some texts or scroll social media for a bit, there's nothing inherently wrong with that.
公平地说，这也意味着，如果你想坐下来拿着手机处理一些短信或浏览一下社交媒体，这本身并没有什么问题。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's the intrusion of that stuff into other activities-
这是那些东西对其他活动的侵入——
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Exactly
正是如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that's likely to be the issue.
that's likely to be the issue.
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Totally agree.
完全同意。
Totally.
完全。
So just to finish this insight.
So just to finish this insight.
So a practice that is easily accessible that can really help with insight is if you're in a difficult situation, whatever it is, at work, in a relationship, imagine what a person who is different from you, that you may know, or it could be some famous person who you know something about.
因此，一种容易获得、真正有助于洞察力的做法是，如果你处于困境，无论是什么，在工作中，在人际关系中，想象一个与你不同的人，你可能认识，或者可能是某个你了解的名人。
Imagine how they would view the situation from their perspective.
想象一下他们会如何从他们的角度看待这种情况。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
And just allow yourself to get a taste of how their view of the situation is different from your view of the situation.
让自己体验一下他们对情况的看法与你对情况的看法有何不同。
That's it.
就是这样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
And that is really helpful in giving us some distance from our own beliefs and expectations and helps us recognize that when we see the world, we're actually not seeing the world, we're seeing how we construct our own construction of the world through our filters of beliefs and expectations.
这确实有助于我们与自己的信念和期望保持一定的距离，并帮助我们认识到，当我们看到世界时，我们实际上看到的并不是这个世界，而是我们如何通过信念和期望的过滤器来构建我们自己的世界构造。
And so it helps us become less fused, less identified, which is really an important ingredient for wellbeing.
因此，它可以帮助我们变得不那么融合、不那么认同，这确实是幸福的一个重要因素。
And finally, with purpose, a simple practice is whatever you're doing, whether it's a pedestrian activity like washing the dishes or doing your laundry, just simply reflect on how this is beneficial not just to yourself-
最后，有目的地，一个简单的练习就是无论你在做什么，无论是洗碗还是洗衣服这样的日常活动，只要简单地反思一下这不仅对你自己有好处-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
...
...
but to others in your ecosystem.
but to others in your ecosystem.
That's it.
就是这样。
Simple.
简单的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So much of what you just said, which by the way, was spectacular, awareness, connection, insight, and purpose, who wouldn't want to cultivate more of those?
顺便说一句，你刚才所说的很多内容都很精彩，意识、联系、洞察力和目的，谁不想培养更多这些呢？
Especially given that awareness is correlated with more happiness, lack of awareness and presence with less happiness.
特别是考虑到意识与更多的幸福感相关，缺乏意识和存在与更少的幸福感相关。
So much of it seems to be about getting outside ourselves and at the same time not letting the things outside ourselves pull us away from ourselves.
这在很大程度上似乎是为了走出我们自己，同时不让我们之外的事物把我们从自己身边拉开。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I feel funny even with that language.
And I feel funny even with that language.
I mean, the language becomes so loopty-looped.
I mean, the language becomes so loopty-looped.
Unfortunately, we don't have real language for this.
不幸的是，我们没有真正的语言来表达这一点。
I love lactate for the mind because it's simple, it's accurate, and it's actionable.
我喜欢乳酸对大脑的作用，因为它简单、准确且可行。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But so much of what I think you're describing in these four bins is, I think of it as trying to ride the crest of a very in some cases, choppy terrain until you're there.
但我认为你在这四个垃圾箱中描述的大部分内容是，我认为它是在某些情况下试图攀登一个非常崎岖的地形，直到你到达那里。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
We can get pulled into the news, and it's important to be aware of what's going on in the world, but pretty soon you can just be lost in it and then carry forward the angst, the feelings of despair- haven't gotten one over on the other team, whatever it is.
我们可能会被新闻所吸引，了解世界上正在发生的事情很重要，但很快你就会迷失其中，然后继续焦虑、绝望的感觉——无论是什么，都没有超越另一支球队。
On the other side of things, we're just in our heads, and our problems seem so monumental that we forget that we have agency, that there are things we can do right there and then to handle ourselves and show up better.
另一方面，我们只是在自己的头脑中，我们的问题似乎如此巨大，以至于我们忘记了我们有代理权，我们可以在那里做一些事情，然后处理好自己并表现得更好。
So it can feel like a pretty narrow bridge to walk.
所以走起来感觉就像是一座非常狭窄的桥。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm wondering if any of the data from meditators shows that that bridge gets wider with time, and maybe even easier to access.
我想知道冥想者的数据是否表明这座桥随着时间的推移变得越来越宽，甚至可能更容易接近。
In the same way that somebody who's fit, right, they can do a really hard workout for them, but somebody who's really fit, they know, "Okay, when I get there, I'm kind of achy, but I know after five minutes of warming up, I'm going to be fine." So there's less resistance to the warming up, and therefore there's more energy for the actual workout, and then it goes much better.
就像那些身体健康的人，他们可以为他们做一次非常艰苦的锻炼，但是真正健康的人，他们知道，“好吧，当我到达那里时，我有点疼，但我知道经过五分钟的热身后，我会没事的。”因此，热身时的阻力较小，因此有更多的能量用于实际锻炼，然后效果会更好。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah, I think what you're saying is so important.
是的，我觉得你说的很重要。
One of the things you're saying in the exercise analogy is that you're becoming more familiar-
你在练习类比中所说的一件事是你变得越来越熟悉——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
...
...
with what happens.
with what happens.
And as you become more familiar, there's less resistance, because you know that the initial, when I go out on a bike ride, the first 10 minutes are agony for me, honestly.
当你变得更加熟悉时，阻力就会减少，因为你知道，老实说，当我出去骑自行车时，前 10 分钟对我来说是痛苦的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think that's helpful for people to hear.
I think that's helpful for people to hear.
Rob, who's my producer and close friend, he's done multiple Ironmans, he runs all the time, and I asked him, "Do you feel good when you run?" He's like, "No. Usually for the first 20 minutes, I feel like garbage, and then I feel great." And I'm like, "Oh, good, because I thought I was the only one."
罗布是我的制作人，也是我的密友，他参加过多次铁人三项比赛，他一直在跑步，我问他，“你跑步时感觉好吗？”他说，“不。通常在前 20 分钟，我感觉自己很垃圾，然后我感觉很棒。”我想，“哦，很好，因为我以为我是唯一的一个。”
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Although, for me, it's a little bit shorter, but I don't run the way that he runs.
虽然，对我来说，有点短，但我不会像他那样跑。
I don't cycle the way that you cycle.
I don't cycle the way that you cycle.
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm out there just to do it, not to perform at an extremely high-
我只是为了去做这件事，而不是为了表现得非常高-
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
level.
水平。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
But I know that because I'm familiar with it, I know that at a certain mile distance, it's going to change.
但我知道，因为我熟悉它，我知道在一定英里的距离内，它会发生变化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
And it does, very reliably.
确实如此，非常可靠。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
And we also similarly can become more familiar with our own minds.
同样，我们也可以更加熟悉自己的内心。
The familiarity is the same kind of concept.
The familiarity is the same kind of concept.
We can become more familiar with our own minds, and when we become more familiar with our own minds, our capacities become more readily available, more spontaneously available.
我们可以更加熟悉自己的思想，当我们更加熟悉自己的思想时，我们的能力就会变得更容易、更自发地发挥作用。
And one of the challenges when we first start this work of intentionally cultivating flourishing is that we forget.
当我们第一次开始这项有意识地培育繁荣的工作时，挑战之一就是我们忘记了。
We know the things that we could do to be helpful, but we forget to use them in the moment, in the friction of the moment, or even if the moment is not so friction-like.
我们知道我们可以做哪些事情来提供帮助，但我们忘记了在当下、在当下的摩擦中，或者即使那一刻并不那么摩擦时使用它们。
But I've seen people, even meditators, if they're coming to a meal and they sit down, they just immediately start very unconsciously, instead of just taking a moment for a little appreciation.
但我见过人们，甚至冥想者，如果他们来吃饭并坐下来，他们就会立即无意识地开始，而不是花点时间欣赏一下。
But the more you do it, the more it becomes spontaneous, and literally, the sitting down to the meal is a cue-
但你做得越多，它就越变得自发，从字面上看，坐下来吃饭就是一个暗示——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
...
...
which elicits this response.
which elicits this response.
And it really becomes more spontaneously available.
而且它确实变得更加自发可用。
It takes some time, but I think that this is really a reliable outcome of doing this with regularity.
这需要一些时间，但我认为这确实是定期这样做的可靠结果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fantastic.
太棒了。
Yeah, I'm a big fan of ritualizing things.
Yeah, I'm a big fan of ritualizing things.
I have my pre-podcast ritual.
I have my pre-podcast ritual.
Doesn't matter what it is.
它是什么并不重要。
And the consistency is what matters, because I think the neuroscientist in me wants to say that it probably allows a lot of networks that don't need to be active to be less active, and probably allows the networks that do need to be active to get some of that energy.
一致性才是重要的，因为我认为我的神经科学家想说，它可能允许许多不需要活跃的网络变得不那么活跃，并且可能允许确实需要活跃的网络获得一些能量。
Literally, we had Martin Picard on here.
Literally, we had Martin Picard on here.
He's an expert in mitochondria.
他是线粒体方面的专家。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah, he's a good friend of mine.
Yeah, he's a good friend of mine.
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
He's terrific.
他太棒了。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
I love Martin.
我爱马丁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And when we used to talk about energy, it sounded kind of woo, but it's mitochondria.
当我们过去谈论能量时，听起来有点令人向往，但它是线粒体。
We're talking electrical and chemical signaling between neurons, and mitochondria are handling so much of that.
我们谈论的是神经元之间的电信号和化学信号，而线粒体正在处理其中的大部分信号。
And so we're no longer living in the space where the names don't have substantiation in the textbooks and in biophysics-
因此，我们不再生活在教科书和生物物理学中的名字没有得到证实的空间中——
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and in molecules.
和分子中。
And while that might not be the most important aspect, I think people that would otherwise say, "Oh, well, this meditation stuff sounds kind of out there." No, this is the stuff of biology.
虽然这可能不是最重要的方面，但我认为人们会说，“哦，好吧，这种冥想的东西听起来有点在那里。”不，这是生物学的东西。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's the stuff of physics.
这是物理学的东西。
It's the stuff of chemistry.
这是化学的东西。
So, speaking of chemistry, I'm curious what your thoughts are on psychedelics.
所以，说到化学，我很好奇你对迷幻药的看法。
We've talked about them before on the podcast, and I always use the usual disclaimer that there's some very compelling clinical trials, psilocybin for major depression, maybe for other things as well.
我们之前在播客上讨论过它们，我总是使用通常的免责声明，即有一些非常引人注目的临床试验，裸盖菇素用于治疗重度抑郁症，也许也用于其他事情。
Ibogaine, very dangerous unless done correctly with correct health monitoring, so has been shown to be helpful for trauma, for addictions.
伊博加因非常危险，除非在正确的健康监测下正确使用，因此已被证明对治疗创伤和成瘾有帮助。
MDMA, an empathogen, not a psychedelic, for trauma, but that we still don't have FDA approval on these things.
MDMA，一种用于治疗创伤的移情剂，而不是致幻剂，但我们仍然没有获得 FDA 对这些东西的批准。
Many of them are still Schedule 1, so no known medical application, and still very illegal to possess or sell, so that's the warning.
其中许多仍属于附表 1，因此没有已知的医疗应用，并且拥有或出售仍然非常非法，所以这就是警告。
And certainly, populations that shouldn't go near them, people with predisposition to psychosis or mania, that's very clear.
当然，不应该接近他们的人群，有精神病或躁狂倾向的人，这是非常清楚的。
With all of that said, the data are pretty exciting.
综上所述，这些数据非常令人兴奋。
People's ability to access an understanding of patterns in their unconscious mind, to rewire their default mode and resting networks, to reduce anxiety, and on and on.
人们能够理解潜意识中的模式，重新连接他们的默认模式和休息网络，减少焦虑，等等。
And psychedelics and meditation have a somewhat overlapping past.
致幻剂和冥想的过去有些重叠。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm curious what your thoughts are, given all the disclaimers, and is there a place for combining them with meditation to achieve more accelerated results?
我很好奇你的想法是什么，考虑到所有的免责声明，是否有地方可以将它们与冥想结合起来以实现更快的结果？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah, those are great questions which I have thought a lot about, as I'm sure you suspect.
是的，这些都是很好的问题，我想了很多，我相信你也怀疑。
So I have a few nuanced views of this.
所以我对此有一些微妙的看法。
First, I'm excited about the new research in the way you are, and I also completely agree with you that there are really promising data from some of the clinical trials.
首先，我对你这样的新研究感到兴奋，而且我也完全同意你的观点，即一些临床试验确实提供了有希望的数据。
So, you mentioned in severe intractable depression, and there are, I think, really good data there.
所以，你提到了严重的顽固性抑郁症，我认为那里有非常好的数据。
There's also good data for alcoholism.
关于酗酒也有很好的数据。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
And I think that this resurgence of research is a great thing, and I'm convinced this is something that really could be helpful in a number of clinical situations.
我认为研究的复兴是一件伟大的事情，我相信这对许多临床情况确实有帮助。
I'm less sanguine about the use of psychedelics in, quote, "normal people" or individuals who are doing it for kind of their own self-development or flourishing or spiritual development.
我对“正常人”或那些为了自我发展、繁荣或精神发展而使用迷幻药的人不太乐观。
I'm less sanguine for the following reason.
由于以下原因，我不太乐观。
I think that psychedelics can produce a kind of glimpse of a different mode of being, which could be helpful.
我认为迷幻药可以让人瞥见不同的存在模式，这可能会有所帮助。
But I think a lot depends on what happens after that, so to speak.
但可以这么说，我认为很大程度上取决于之后会发生什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
And how that experience is actually worked with and integrated.
以及如何实际运用和整合这种体验。
And one of the things that concerns me about the stuff happening with psychedelics today is the relative lack of training of the folks who guide psychedelic sessions.
对于当今迷幻药所发生的事情，令我担心的一件事是指导迷幻药课程的人员相对缺乏培训。
And you can look in the United States today and see that many major universities, including my university, not through my involvement, are offering these one-year kind of certificate programs to become a psychedelic guide-
而且你看看今天的美国，很多主要大学，包括我的大学，不是通过我的参与，都在提供这些一年制的证书课程，成为迷幻导游——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm
嗯
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
...
...
for people with very little prior training.
对于之前很少受过培训的人来说。
And this is something that's occurring all over the place.
这种事情到处都在发生。
It deeply concerns me, because I wouldn't trust the kind of people who-- It's not to disparage these people.
这让我深感担忧，因为我不会信任那些——这并不是为了贬低这些人。
I'm sure that they have good motivation, but I just don't think that taking a person with no prior training and putting them in a program for a year is sufficient to cover all of the issues and nuances that are going to arise.
我确信他们有良好的动机，但我只是认为让一个没有接受过培训的人参加一年的计划不足以解决所有将要出现的问题和细微差别。
The other related issue is that when a person has a psychedelic experience, what happens after and what is the residue of that?
另一个相关的问题是，当一个人有迷幻体验时，之后会发生什么以及残留物是什么？
And what I sense is the residue is that they have a memory of the experience.
我感觉残留的是他们对这段经历有记忆。
And so they remember aspects of what happened during the experience, and the recollection of an experience is very different than the embodied transformation that is required to produce real change.
因此，他们会记住体验期间发生的事情的各个方面，而对体验的回忆与产生真正变化所需的具体转变非常不同。
For me, there's a simple question you can ask.
对我来说，你可以问一个简单的问题。
Is this person kinder?
这个人比较善良吗？
Does their spouse report that they're more enjoyable to be around?
他们的配偶是否表示与他们在一起更愉快？
Is their flourishing contagious?
他们的繁荣具有传染性吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Those are the questions that I think can be asked, and I haven't seen a lot of convincing evidence of that.
这些是我认为可以提出的问题，但我还没有看到很多令人信服的证据。
I'm a big fan of the research going on and continuing to use these substances for treating people who are in various states of significant distress, but I'm cautious about their use in a broader way to promote human flourishing at scale.
I'm a big fan of the research going on and continuing to use these substances for treating people who are in various states of significant distress, but I'm cautious about their use in a broader way to promote human flourishing at scale.
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for that very, very thoughtful response.
感谢您非常非常周到的回复。
I'm enthusiastic about these compounds.
我对这些化合物很感兴趣。
I just still have a lot of questions about what proper integration really looks like, how to standardize that.
我仍然对正确的集成到底是什么样子以及如何标准化有很多疑问。
And then, of course, there are many people who perhaps are hearing this and will say, "Well, there's a longstanding tradition of how to do this correctly, and now people in standardized medicine in the West are now trying to overtake this or change it," and raises a lot of interesting questions.
当然，很多人可能听到这句话后会说，“嗯，如何正确地做到这一点有一个长期的传统，现在西方标准化医学界的人们正在试图超越或改变它，”并提出了很多有趣的问题。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think clearly it's growing in its use.
我认为显然它的使用正在增长。
I haven't heard of any standard ways of meshing it with meditation.
我还没有听说过任何将其与冥想结合起来的标准方法。
Certainly, there are people also at Stanford combining it with transcranial magnetic stimulation-
当然，斯坦福也有人将它与经颅磁刺激结合起来——
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because these compounds open up plasticity to some extent, and the idea that one could direct the plasticity towards specific networks in the brain is pretty exciting.
because these compounds open up plasticity to some extent, and the idea that one could direct the plasticity towards specific networks in the brain is pretty exciting.
What's cooler than that, right?
还有什么比这更酷的，对吧？
Combining chemistry and brain-machine interface too, and people's self-report and a really good practitioner in driving the neural circuit changes so that they can emerge from that better.
也将化学和脑机接口结合起来，以及人们的自我报告和驱动神经回路变化的真正优秀实践者，以便他们能够更好地摆脱困境。
But yeah, we're not quite there.
但是，是的，我们还没有完全做到这一点。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
And I think in general, the use of neurostimulation, neuromodulation methods in conjunction with other modalities of intervention, whether it be psychedelics or meditation, for example, is a very promising avenue for exploration.
And I think in general, the use of neurostimulation, neuromodulation methods in conjunction with other modalities of intervention, whether it be psychedelics or meditation, for example, is a very promising avenue for exploration.
And we're doing some research right now combining neuromodulation with meditation to see if we can boost the impact of meditation with some targeted neuromodulation, and it's specifically neuromodulation to help facilitate sleep.
我们现在正在做一些研究，将神经调节与冥想相结合，看看我们是否可以通过一些有针对性的神经调节来增强冥想的影响，特别是神经调节可以帮助促进睡眠。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What device are you using to stimulate?
你用什么设备来刺激？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
So we are using this I'm sure you know something about it, but actually, there are very few groups in the world currently using this.
所以我们正在使用这个，我相信你对此有所了解，但实际上，目前世界上只有很少的团体在使用它。
It's called transcranial electric stimulation with temporal interference-
这叫做带有时间干扰的经颅电刺激——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
...
...
TESTE.
测试。
And the basic idea of this is that if you have two electrodes that are stimulating at a very high carrier frequency, say 15 kilohertz, which is essentially from all we know, the brain is not responsive to a 15 kilohertz signal.
And the basic idea of this is that if you have two electrodes that are stimulating at a very high carrier frequency, say 15 kilohertz, which is essentially from all we know, the brain is not responsive to a 15 kilohertz signal.
So that's the carrier frequency, and the way it works is we're stimulating one electrode at 15,000 kilohertz and another electrode at 15,001 kilohertz.
这就是载波频率，它的工作原理是我们以 15,000 kHz 刺激一个电极，以 15,001 kHz 刺激另一个电极。
So there's just a one hertz offset, and the geometry of the targeting is such that we can target deep brain structures where the delta frequency is maximal.
因此，只有一赫兹的偏移，并且目标的几何形状使得我们可以瞄准增量频率最大的深层大脑结构。
We are targeting structures that are specifically structures where we know slow waves are generated, and are therefore an important ingredient in deep sleep.
我们的目标是那些我们知道会产生慢波的结构，因此它们是深度睡眠的重要组成部分。
The other cool thing about this stimulation is you cannot feel it.
这种刺激的另一个很酷的事情是你感觉不到它。
It has no subjective sensations.
它没有主观感觉。
So it's very different than TMS, which is-
所以它与 TMS 非常不同，它是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
...
...
you feel it big time.
你感觉很重要。
You don't feel a thing.
你什么感觉都没有。
So we are delivering this during sleep.
所以我们在睡眠期间传递这个。
People don't know when they're getting stimulated.
人们不知道自己什么时候受到刺激。
They of course know they're being stimulated because they're giving informed consent, but it doesn't wake them up.
他们当然知道自己受到刺激，因为他们给予了知情同意，但这并没有唤醒他们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it increases slow wave sleep.
它还能增加慢波睡眠。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
We've definitively demonstrated that it increases the density of slow wave activity during deep sleep.
我们已经明确证明它可以增加深度睡眠期间慢波活动的密度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How do they feel in their wakeful, subjective life?
他们在清醒的主观生活中感觉如何？
Better?
更好的？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Well, yes.
嗯，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And how do I become a participant in this study?
我如何成为这项研究的参与者？
I get plenty of slow wave sleep.
我有充足的慢波睡眠。
My sleep is great lately, and has been for a while, but are you recruiting subjects?
我最近睡眠质量很好，而且已经有一段时间了，但是你们在招募受试者吗？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
It's a big, complicated protocol, so-
这是一个庞大而复杂的协议，所以-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't care.
我不在乎。
Are you recruiting subjects?
你们正在招募受试者吗？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
We are recruiting.
我们正在招聘。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm just kidding.
我只是开玩笑。
I do care.
我很关心。
I'm just teasing.
我只是在开玩笑。
People are probably thinking, "How do I get that?" Well, maybe this pre-sleep meditation-
人们可能会想，“我怎样才能得到它？”好吧，也许这个睡前冥想——
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
So that-
那么——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
protocol should be looked at, because that's something anyone can do.
应该考虑协议，因为这是任何人都可以做的事情。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
So that-
那么——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'll provide a link to that paper.
我将提供该论文的链接。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And that's exactly what we're doing in this study now.
这正是我们现在在这项研究中所做的。
We're using a, this is a little technical, but we're using a micro-randomized design.
我们正在使用，这有点技术性，但我们正在使用微随机设计。
In a single participant, on some nights, they get pre-sleep meditation.
单个参与者在某些晚上进行睡前冥想。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Just before sleep, just a five-minute practice.
睡觉前，只需练习五分钟即可。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
And on other nights, they do not receive that.
而在其他晚上，他们不会收到。
And we are looking at the impact of that on slow wave sleep, and also looking at the synergistic effects of pre-sleep meditation with the TESTE stimulation to increase slow wave activity, and we're getting experience sampling measures during the next day to see if the pre-sleep meditation has a demonstrable impact on their mood the next day, and how that interacts with our boosting of slow wave activity.
我们正在研究它对慢波睡眠的影响，并研究睡前冥想与 TESTE 刺激增加慢波活动的协同效应，并且我们在第二天进行经验采样测量，看看睡前冥想是否对他们第二天的情绪有明显的影响，以及它如何与我们促进慢波活动相互作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very, very cool.
非常非常酷。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
I should just say, this is work that's being done collaboratively with Giulio Tononi and his group in Wisconsin.
我只想说，这是与 Giulio Tononi 和他在威斯康星州的团队合作完成的工作。
He's a very well-known sleep and consciousness scientist, neuroscientist.
他是一位非常著名的睡眠和意识科学家、神经科学家。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, great lab.
是的，很棒的实验室。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Great lab.
很棒的实验室。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are you able to share any preliminary findings about what the pre-sleep five-minute meditation does to deep sleep?
您能否分享有关睡前五分钟冥想对深度睡眠有何影响的初步发现？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
We don't know yet.
我们还不知道。
And honestly, it's not me being super cautious.
老实说，这并不是我超级谨慎。
This is a new study that we're just in the middle of.
这是一项新的研究，我们正在进行中。
We have roughly 20-something participants who've completed the protocol, but it's ongoing right now.
我们有大约 20 多名参与者完成了该协议，但目前仍在进行中。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Well, given what you just described, and given that this other paper described that some pre-sleep meditation can have a really impressive impact on growth hormone release, I'm encouraged to do the five minutes before sleep.
好吧，考虑到您刚才所描述的内容，并考虑到另一篇论文描述了一些睡前冥想可以对生长激素的释放产生非常令人印象深刻的影响，我鼓励我在睡前做五分钟。
So I suppose that if you want to double up on the benefits, you could just do the five-minute-per-day meditation, folks, in the hour before sleep.
所以我想，如果你想加倍好处，朋友们，你可以每天在睡觉前一小时进行五分钟的冥想。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Why not?
为什么不呢？
I think it would be great.
我认为那会很棒。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What are your thoughts on open monitoring meditation for increasing creativity?
您对通过开放监控冥想来提高创造力有何看法？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Honestly, the data on open monitoring meditation, or for that matter, any meditation and creativity, I would say are very limited.
老实说，我想说，关于开放监测冥想的数据，或者就此而言，任何冥想和创造力的数据都非常有限。
In part, it's because the measures of creativity that are used by psychologists typically are honestly, I think, pretty crappy measures of creativity.
部分原因是，老实说，我认为心理学家使用的创造力衡量标准通常是相当蹩脚的创造力衡量标准。
So we're quite limited by the measurement tools that we have.
因此，我们所拥有的测量工具非常有限。
Having said all that, I do think that open monitoring meditation can really boost creativity, primarily by helping people become more aware of the associative thoughts that they have.
话虽如此，我确实认为开放式监控冥想确实可以提高创造力，主要是通过帮助人们更加意识到他们所拥有的联想思想。
And this relates to something we talked about earlier.
这与我们之前讨论过的事情有关。
I often tell students of mine to spend time inspecting their own mind, just watching their own mind and writing down thoughts that may occur that may be interesting.
我经常告诉我的学生花时间检查自己的思想，只是观察自己的思想并写下可能出现的有趣的想法。
And this is a kind of open monitoring meditation.
这是一种开放的监控冥想。
It's having no specific object and just being open, aware, awake, and not distracted.
它没有特定的目标，只是开放、觉知、清醒、不分心。
Not getting lost in a train of thought, but simply being aware.
不迷失在思绪中，而只是保持觉知。
I believe that we probably have much more creative thought occurring than we give ourselves credit for, and it's simply because we forget, and I think this can really improve that.
我相信，我们产生的创造性思维可能比我们想象的要多得多，这只是因为我们忘记了，我认为这确实可以改善这一点。
But the data are pretty meager.
但数据相当微薄。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But you still recommend it if people want to increase their creativity?
但如果人们想增加创造力，你仍然推荐它吗？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yes, I do, because this is one of those things where there's essentially no downside to it.
是的，我愿意，因为这是基本上没有缺点的事情之一。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
We know there'll be other benefits that have been empirically-
我们知道根据经验还会有其他好处——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
...
...
documented.
记录在案。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Awesome.
太棒了。
Well, Richie, thank you so much for coming here today and educating us on meditation.
好吧，里奇，非常感谢你今天来到这里并教育我们冥想。
But really much more than that, you've educated us on states of mind, how to access different states of mind, what they mean , how they impact the state of being and our traits that we will enter after we meditate.
但实际上更重要的是，您教育了我们有关心态的知识，如何进入不同的心态，它们的含义，它们如何影响存在状态以及我们在冥想后将进入的特征。
And now everyone should be inspired to do at least five minutes per day of meditation, maybe in the morning, maybe before sleep.
现在，每个人都应该受到启发，每天至少进行五分钟的冥想，也许在早上，也许在睡觉前。
We'd love to get the update on this study that you described, looking at slow-wave sleep.
我们很想了解您所描述的慢波睡眠研究的最新情况。
And I'm really excited about your book.
我对你的书感到非常兴奋。
It's so great that you have a new book coming out because I, of course, read "Altered Traits." I've talked about it on the podcast.
太棒了，你有一本新书出版，因为我当然读了《改变的特质》。我在播客上谈到过它。
I love love love the book.
我爱爱爱这本书。
We'll put a link to that.
我们将放置一个链接。
But "Born to Flourish: How New Science and Ancient Wisdom Reveal a Simple Path to Thriving" by you, and we should give credit to your coauthor.
但是你写的《生来繁荣：新科学和古代智慧如何揭示一条简单的繁荣之路》，我们应该归功于你的合著者。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Courtland Dahl.
考特兰·达尔.
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And he is a neuroscientist as well?
他也是一位神经科学家？
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Yes, he's a neuroscientist, contemplative scientist, and chief contemplative officer of our nonprofit, human.org.
是的，他是一位神经科学家、沉思科学家，也是我们非营利组织 human.org 的首席沉思官。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Awesome.
太棒了。
Well, you're a real pioneer in this space.
嗯，你是这个领域真正的先驱。
The field, as it were, of meditation really needed a serious scientist to break in and study and share so that everyone can learn about and adopt meditation.
可以说，冥想领域确实需要一位认真的科学家来介入、研究和分享，以便每个人都可以了解和采用冥想。
And you've just done so much to educate so many people.
您刚刚做了很多工作来教育这么多人。
And coming here today, you've just done more of that.
今天来到这里，你刚刚做了更多的事情。
So I have immense gratitude for you, and I know millions of other people do as well.
因此，我对你们深表感激，我知道还有数以百万计的人也同样如此。
So thank you so much.
非常感谢。
Dr. Richard Davidson:
理查德·戴维森博士：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
And I want to express my immense gratitude to you for bringing science that can make our lives better to so many people.
我想对你们带来了科学，让我们的生活变得更好给这么多人表示极大的感谢。
And that is such a gift and such a wonderful service that you are providing, so thank you.
这是你们提供的一份礼物和如此出色的服务，所以谢谢你们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Richie Davidson.
感谢您参加今天与 Richie Davidson 博士的讨论。
To learn more about his work and to find a link to his new book, "Born to Flourish," please see the links in the show note captions.
要了解有关他的作品的更多信息并找到他的新书“Born to Flourish”的链接，请参阅演出注释标题中的链接。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的关注按钮来关注播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。
And you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.
您现在可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab Podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客、嘉宾或您希望我考虑在 Huberman 实验室播客中讨论的主题有意见，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这本书是我花了五年多时间编写的，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验。
And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
它涵盖了从睡眠到运动再到压力控制的所有协议，以及与注意力和动机相关的协议，当然，我为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There you can find links to various vendors.
在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." And if you're not already following me on social media, I am hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 hubermanlab。
So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab Podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab Podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。
Again, it's hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
再说一遍，所有社交媒体平台上都是 hubermanlab。
And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one- to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.
我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。
All of that is available completely zero cost.
所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter, and enter your email.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的“菜单”选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件即可。
And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Richie Davidson.
再次感谢您参加今天与 Richie Davidson 博士的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。