Science & Health Benefits of Belief in God & Religion | Dr. David DeSteno

Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

欢迎来到胡伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

My guest today is Dr. David DeSteno.

今天我的嘉宾是大卫·德斯特诺博士。

Dr. David DeSteno is a professor of psychology at Northeastern University, and an expert on the science of morality, religion, and the health benefits of belief in God and religion.

大卫·德斯特诺 (David DeSteno) 博士是东北大学心理学教授，也是道德、宗教科学以及信仰上帝和宗教对健康的益处方面的专家。

Many people, perhaps most people actually, view science and religion as mutually exclusive.

许多人，也许实际上是大多数人，认为科学和宗教是相互排斥的。

Today, Dr. DeSteno explains why that view is actually incorrect, and he also shares the data showing that religion and prayer have tremendous mental and physical benefits.

今天，德斯特诺博士解释了为什么这种观点实际上是错误的，他还分享了一些数据，表明宗教和祈祷具有巨大的精神和身体益处。

We discuss the brain mechanisms that often lead people to embrace faith in God and religion, and we attempt to tackle some of the big questions that often come up around science and religion.

我们讨论经常引导人们相信上帝和宗教的大脑机制，并尝试解决一些经常出现的围绕科学和宗教的重大问题。

For instance, can the existence of God actually be proven?

例如，上帝的存在真的能被证明吗？

Can it be disproven?

可以反驳吗？

If not, how should we think about miracles, the origin of life, and the afterlife?

如果不是，我们应该如何思考奇迹、生命的起源和来世？

So, small questions like that.

所以，诸如此类的小问题。

We also discuss where the line between rituals and suspicions resides, and what distinguishes religions from cults.

我们还讨论了仪式和怀疑之间的界限，以及宗教与邪教的区别。

He also shares that despite the fact that more than 100 new religions surface every year, that was surprising to me, very few are able to last.

他还表示，尽管每年都会出现 100 多种新宗教，这让我感到惊讶，但能够持久的却很少。

That was not surprising.

这并不奇怪。

He also shares amazing data on when and how people lie for personal gain, and the simple practices that convert liars into truth-tellers, and that make people more empathic overall.

他还分享了关于人们何时以及如何为了个人利益而撒谎的惊人数据，以及将说谎者转变为说真话者的简单做法，并使人们整体上更具同理心。

To be clear, Dr. DeSteno is not promoting religion.

需要明确的是，德斯特诺博士并不是在宣扬宗教。

He's a scientist, and his approach is to study, in an unbiased way, how belief in God and religious practices can benefit individuals and groups.

他是一名科学家，他的方法是以公正的方式研究对上帝的信仰和宗教活动如何使个人和群体受益。

Thanks to him, it's a remarkable conversation that I also believe is important, especially in this time of rapidly evolving AI technology and social media.

感谢他，这是一次非凡的对话，我也认为这很重要，特别是在这个人工智能技术和社交媒体快速发展的时代。

I learned a ton speaking with him about science, God, and religion, and I'm certain that you will too.

我在与他谈论科学、上帝和宗教方面学到了很多东西，我相信你也会的。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is however part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是将有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息带给公众。

In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.

为了与这个主题保持一致，今天的节目确实有赞助商。

And now for my discussion with Dr. David DeSteno.

现在我与 David DeSteno 博士进行了讨论。

Dr. David DeSteno, welcome.

大卫·德斯特诺博士，欢迎光临。

Thanks for having me, Andrew.

谢谢你邀请我，安德鲁。

For so many people, the idea of science and religion, or science and God, are opposite one another, and maybe even, um, mutually antagonistic to one another, depending on who you're talking to and how it's framed.

对于很多人来说，科学和宗教，或者科学和上帝的观念是相互对立的，甚至可能，嗯，相互对立，这取决于你在和谁说话以及它是如何构建的。

Uh, that makes sense, I think, to a lot of people, religious or not, just because on the face of it, science is supposed to be about disproving hypotheses.

呃，我认为这对很多人来说都是有道理的，无论是否有宗教信仰，只是因为从表面上看，科学应该是关于反驳假设的。

And religion, in most people's minds, is based on belief and faith in things that are difficult to disprove.

而宗教，在大多数人的心目中，是建立在对难以反驳的事物的信仰和信念之上的。

Um, not impossible, perhaps, but difficult to disprove.

嗯，也许不是不可能，但很难反驳。

And people go back and forth, trying to prove the existence of God, trying to disprove the existence of God.

人们来来回回，试图证明上帝的存在，试图反驳上帝的存在。

This is going on for, um, many, many thousands of years.

这种情况已经持续了，嗯，很多很多几千年。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

To start, I just want to know, what is your view on the compatibility of science and, let's just say, belief in God?

首先，我只想知道，您对科学与信仰上帝的兼容性有何看法？

Because religion and belief in God are somewhat separable.

因为宗教和对上帝的信仰在某种程度上是分开的。

Sure.

当然。

And we'll get into that.

我们将详细讨论这一点。

Uh, but to keep things simple,

呃，但是为了简单起见，

what do we know for sure about the compatibility or lack of compatibility between what we call science and a belief in God?

对于我们所谓的科学与对上帝的信仰之间的兼容性或不兼容性，我们有什么确切的了解？

To me, the question of belief in God, and you're right, it gets in the way of this.

对我来说，信仰上帝的问题，你是对的，它阻碍了这一点。

Because people will say, "Well, if I believe in God, then I can't embrace science." And, and I think that's wrong.

因为人们会说：“好吧，如果我相信上帝，那么我就不能接受科学。”而且，我认为这是错误的。

But let me start at the beginning and say, well, I think the question of, "Does God exist?" isn't a useful question.

但让我从头开始说，好吧，我认为这个问题是“上帝存在吗？”这不是一个有用的问题。

It doesn't mean it's not an important question.

这并不意味着这不是一个重要的问题。

As you said, people have been debating this for millennia.

正如你所说，人们对此争论了数千年。

But it's not useful, because as scientists, we can't prove it.

但这没有用，因为作为科学家，我们无法证明这一点。

Any scientist who tells you they know for sure God doesn't exist, you shouldn't listen to.

任何科学家告诉你他们确信上帝不存在，你不应该听。

Um, the reason I say that is,

嗯，我这么说的原因是，

oftentimes, we, you and I, as scientists, live by the data.

通常，我们、你和我，作为科学家，都是靠数据生存的。

We run experiments.

我们进行实验。

And what's behind any experiment is, we try to manipulate a variable and we see if it produces a change.

任何实验的背后都是，我们尝试操纵一个变量，看看它是否会产生变化。

When you're talking about God, you can't do an experiment.

当你谈论上帝时，你无法做实验。

And so, you know, I'll say the, the

所以，你知道，我会说，

absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

没有证据并不等于不存在的证据。

You, people hear that a lot and it sounds like a cop-out, but in this case, it's not really.

人们经常听到这样的说法，听起来像是一种逃避，但在这种情况下，事实并非如此。

So, if I'm testing a new drug, I can have people take the drug and see if it combats a pathogen.

因此，如果我正在测试一种新药，我可以让人们服用该药物，看看它是否能对抗病原体。

And if it doesn't combat a pathogen, I can say, "All right, well, it doesn't seem to be working in this experiment." Any one experiment can fail for lots of reasons.

如果它不能对抗病原体，我可以说，“好吧，好吧，它在这个实验中似乎不起作用。”任何一项实验都可能因多种原因而失败。

Maybe people didn't take their medication the right way.

也许人们没有以正确的方式服药。

Maybe it only works for a certain type of people.

也许它只适用于特定类型的人。

And so you can try it again and again in different cases, and you can kind of build up a sense of, is there evidence here that this drug works or doesn't over time?

所以你可以在不同的情况下一次又一次地尝试，你可以建立一种感觉，是否有证据表明这种药物随着时间的推移有效或无效？

And if it doesn't, in any case, you might say, "Eh, maybe there's nothing there." With God, you can't even run the experiment.

如果没有，无论如何，你可能会说，“呃，也许那里什么也没有。”有了上帝，你甚至无法进行实验。

So, I'm a psychologist, and so most of what I do is I bring people into my lab.

所以，我是一名心理学家，所以我所做的大部分工作就是带人们进入我的实验室。

I study how emotions change their behavior.

我研究情绪如何改变他们的行为。

And so I'll bring people in and I'll create two groups.

所以我会带人进来并创建两个小组。

Um, I'll balance gender and ideology and intelligence and all of those things.

嗯，我会平衡性别、意识形态、智力以及所有这些东西。

And to one of them, we'll change their emotional state, and I'll see if it'll do something.

对于其中一个人，我们会改变他们的情绪状态，我会看看这是否会起到作用。

With God, you can't run an experiment.

有了上帝，你就无法进行实验。

You can't manipulate God, if God exists, right?

如果上帝存在，你就无法操纵上帝，对吗？

People say, "Oh, Dave, I prayed for X, Y, and Z, and it didn't come true.

人们说：“哦，戴夫，我为 X、Y 和 Z 祈祷，但它没有实现。

So therefore, God must not exist." And I'm like, "Well, do you know the mind of God?" Maybe God only helps people God likes.

因此，上帝一定不存在。”我说：“那么，你知道神的心意吗？”也许上帝只帮助上帝喜欢的人。

Maybe God only helps people on every third Tuesday.

也许上帝只在每个第三个星期二帮助人们。

Right?

正确的？

I don't know.

我不知道。

And if I can't manipulate something about the mind of God, then I can't infer causality if God exists or doesn't exist.

如果我不能操纵上帝的思想，那么我就无法推断上帝存在或不存在的因果关系。

And so I think this question of, "Does God exist?" is one science can't answer.

所以我想到这个问题：“上帝存在吗？”这是一项科学无法回答的问题。

I mean, I'm happy to say as a scientist, I see no empirical evidence that God exists.

我的意思是，作为一名科学家，我很高兴地说，我没有看到任何经验证据表明上帝存在。

But without being able to run an experiment to prove it, it's beyond the realm of science.

但如果无法进行实验来证明这一点，那就超出了科学领域。

And all it does is polarize us, right?

它所做的一切只是让我们两极分化，对吗？

It polarizes people into the camps that you're saying.But I think most people, the ones on- on X, are fundamentalists who are shouting, "Science is bad," or hardcore new atheists who are saying, "Religion is bad." I think most people live in the middle somewhere, and most people accept the view that there could be something there, and they're not in tension.

它使人们两极分化到你所说的阵营中。但我认为大多数人，X上的人，都是原教旨主义者，他们高喊“科学是坏的”，或者是铁杆新无神论者，他们说“宗教是坏的”。我认为大多数人都生活在中间的某个地方，并且大多数人都接受那里可能有某些东西的观点，并且他们并不紧张。

And I think for a lot of history, that was it.

我认为对于很多历史来说，就是这样。

I mean, the Catholic Church

我的意思是，天主教会

funds research.

资助研究。

They have a wonderful observatory, uh, to look at astronomical behavior.

他们有一个很棒的天文台，呃，可以观察天文行为。

The Dalai Lama funds neuroscience, right, to understand how the mind works.

达赖喇嘛资助神经科学，对吧，以了解大脑如何运作。

And so we had Francis Collins on the show, one of the, you know, great geneticists of our time, and for him, there's no tension.

所以我们邀请了弗朗西斯·柯林斯（Francis Collins）参加节目，他是我们这个时代伟大的遗传学家之一，对他来说，没有紧张感。

He says God...

他说神...

He's a believer.

他是一个信徒。

God created the human mind so that we could learn about the wonders of God's creation and how the world works.

上帝创造了人类的思想，以便我们能够了解上帝创造的奇迹以及世界是如何运作的。

They don't need to be in tension.

他们不需要处于紧张状态。

So for me, I have to put that question to the side.

所以对我来说，我必须把这个问题放在一边。

What I'm interested in is the data that we'll talk about that shows engaging with religion makes life better for people, and why is that.

我感兴趣的是我们将要讨论的数据，这些数据表明参与宗教可以使人们的生活变得更好，以及为什么会这样。

I definitely want to go into all the practices that people can embrace, should they choose, that can indeed, according to the research, make life better, not just for them, but for many people.

我绝对想探讨人们可以接受的所有实践，如果他们选择的话，根据研究，这些实践确实可以使生活变得更好，不仅对他们，而且对许多人。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

To ask a second version of the first question again, I'm wondering how you reconcile the argument that I've often heard, where someone will say, "Okay.

再次问第一个问题的第二个版本，我想知道你如何调和我经常听到的争论，有人会说：“好吧。

Well, it's creation," and someone else will say, "No, it's evolution." And someone will say, "Well, who created evolution?

嗯，这是创造，”其他人会说，“不，这是进化。”有人会说：“那么，谁创造了进化论？

It must have been God that created evolution." And...

一定是上帝创造了进化。”还有...

Or we could be talking about the origins of the universe.

或者我们可以谈论宇宙的起源。

Um, my dad's a theoretical physicist, and, uh, we've talked about this before.

嗯，我爸爸是一位理论物理学家，而且，呃，我们之前讨论过这个。

And, um, you know, they say, "Well, okay, so you have the Big Bang theory," and then, uh, but, you know, we had to start from some place.

而且，嗯，你知道，他们说，“好吧，所以你有了大爆炸理论，”然后，呃，但是，你知道，我们必须从某个地方开始。

And then, okay, well, then you had, um...

然后，好吧，好吧，然后你，嗯......

You know, this, uh, soup of- of things that, when combined, started to create some sort of order that built on a structure which buil-...

你知道，这个，呃，一堆东西，当它们组合在一起时，开始创建某种秩序，这种秩序建立在一个结构上，而这个结构构建...

Okay, well, then what started that?

好吧，那么，那是怎么开始的呢？

And- and basically, it- it seems to me, whoever is willing to stay in the argument longest- ...

而且——基本上，在我看来，无论谁愿意在争论中呆得最久——……

and- and- and peel back the layers further and further-

并且-并且-并且进一步剥开层层-

Yeah

是啊

...

...

they don't win, but they're sort of last person standing in the argument.

他们没有获胜，但他们是争论中最后一个站出来的人。

Yeah.

是的。

And, uh, you know, I'm sure this has been debated formally, um, and I'm sure it's been debated formally for centuries, if not thousands and thousands of years, and here we are, 2025, and people still debate this.

而且，呃，你知道，我确信这个问题已经被正式辩论过，嗯，我确信这个问题已经被正式辩论了几个世纪，甚至数千年，而到了 2025 年，人们仍然在辩论这个问题。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

And we're seeing a resurgence in res- religious belief.

我们看到宗教信仰正在复苏。

You also see that on X, you see it on social media.

你也可以在 X 上看到这一点，在社交媒体上看到它。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

You see it lots of places, and I think there's also great interest in science, in belief in science.

你在很多地方都可以看到这种现象，我认为人们对科学、对科学的信仰也有很大的兴趣。

So the question I have is, you know, if it's merely a matter of who's willing to peel back the layers furthest, um, I don't think we're ever going to get to an answer.

所以我的问题是，你知道，如果这仅仅是一个谁愿意最深入地剥开层层的问题，嗯，我认为我们永远不会得到答案。

Yeah.

是的。

But is there some sort of, uh, rational argument, or irrational argument, that one can either choose to adopt or not choose to adopt, that it c- at least can give an individual a sense that they've arrived at an answer for them?

但是，是否存在某种，呃，理性论证或非理性论证，人们可以选择采用或不选择采用，它至少可以给个人一种他们已经找到答案的感觉？

Sure.

当然。

Right?

正确的？

Because seems to me that it's either you take the stance that, well, if it can't be disproven, then there's a possibility, and if there's a possibility, there's a possibility.

因为在我看来，要么你采取这样的立场，好吧，如果它不能被证明，那么就有一种可能性，如果有一种可能性，那就有一种可能性。

Or you take the stance, unless you can prove it to me, forget it.

或者你采取这种立场，除非你能向我证明这一点，否则就算了。

Um, I'm- I'm not going to believe that." And it just becomes an endless cycle of- of humans arguing with humans, which is maybe what God wants.

嗯，我——我不会相信这一点。”这只是人类与人类争论的无休止的循环，这也许是上帝想要的。

Well, you know, you're, you're hitting on the point there.

嗯，你知道，你说到点子上了。

This is why I say it's not a useful scientific question, because when you can raise a finding, say evolution, which we know is true, um, and then say, "Oh, well, maybe that's the way God works." If you- if you keep creating a carve out to explain something, it becomes very difficult to make a strong case, right?

这就是为什么我说这不是一个有用的科学问题，因为当你可以提出一个发现时，比如说进化论，我们知道这是正确的，嗯，然后说，“哦，好吧，也许这就是上帝工作的方式。”如果你——如果你不断地做出解释来解释某些事情，那么就很难提出强有力的理由，对吧？

I mean, scientists live by falsifiability.

我的意思是，科学家靠可证伪性生存。

Can we falsify something?

我们可以伪造一些东西吗？

But if you say, "Oh, yeah, okay, that falsified, but there's a reason why that falsified, because God did it a different way," it becomes just, as you say, an endless debate.

但如果你说，“哦，是的，好吧，那是伪造的，但是这是伪造的，因为上帝以不同的方式做到了，”这就像你所说的那样，变成一场无休止的辩论。

So when I was a- an undergraduate in college, I was always interested in the questions of, you know, what does it mean to be a good person?

因此，当我还是一名大学本科生时，我总是对以下问题感兴趣：成为一个好人意味着什么？

How do you flourish?

你如何蓬勃发展？

How do you find happiness?

你如何找到幸福？

And I was trying to decide between being a history of religions major and a psychologist.

我试图在宗教史专业和心理学家之间做出选择。

I ultimately decided to be a psychologist 'cause I could get data, and not just argue about the things that you're saying.

我最终决定成为一名心理学家，因为我可以获得数据，而不仅仅是争论你所说的事情。

But what I've realized over time is that the things that we're finding that make life better for people, these traditions, they- they couldn't run randomized control trials, but they had intuited long ago.

但随着时间的推移，我意识到，我们发现的那些能让人们生活得更好的东西，这些传统，他们无法进行随机对照试验，但他们很久以前就凭直觉知道了。

And so for me, what I like to tell people is, "Yeah, religion is about belief, but it's also about what you do," you know?

所以对我来说，我喜欢告诉人们的是，“是的，宗教与信仰有关，但它也与你所做的事情有关，”你知道吗？

And so yes, there are lots of people who really don't believe in God.

所以，是的，有很多人并不真正相信上帝。

There are lots of Jews who are atheists, yet are deeply engaged in their practices, and it tends to make life better.

有很多犹太人是无神论者，但他们深深地从事他们的实践，这往往会让生活变得更好。

So let me- let me tell you why I think it's rational.

那么让我告诉你为什么我认为这是合理的。

You can make a rational case to believe this.

你可以提出一个合理的理由来相信这一点。

So, the thing you're hinting at comes from something called Pascal's wager, Pascal being one of the greatest mathematicians and- and philosophers.

所以，你所暗示的事情来自于帕斯卡的赌注，帕斯卡是最伟大的数学家和哲学家之一。

And he argued that

他认为

if God exists, and you choose to believe in God, you can have everlasting life, right?

如果上帝存在，并且你选择相信上帝，你就能获得永生，对吧？

This is...

这是...

Pascal was Christian, so this was the Christian God that we were talking about.

帕斯卡是基督徒，所以这就是我们所说的基督教上帝。

And he said, "By nature of being born, you're forced into this bet.

他说：“从出生的本质来看，你被迫参加这个赌注。

You have to play the game.

你必须玩游戏。

Should you be religious or not?

你应该有宗教信仰吗？

Well, if there's a chance that you could have everlasting life in- in a pleasurable way, even the smallest chance of that outweighs any joy you'd have on Earth." So if you chose not to believe in God, yeah, you might have a more libertine lifestyle here, but the joy you would gain from that pales in comparison.

好吧，如果你有机会以一种愉快的方式获得永生，即使是最小的机会也比你在地球上拥有的任何快乐都重要。”所以，如果你选择不相信上帝，是的，你可能会在这里过上更放荡的生活方式，但相比之下，你从中获得的快乐就相形见绌了。

And so it makes sense from a decision theory, right?

所以从决策理论来看这是有道理的，对吗？

The expected value of happiness is larger if happiness is infinite.

如果幸福是无限的，那么幸福的期望值就更大。

And so Pascal said, "You should believe in God." But people say, "Well, what if I believe the probability that there's everlasting life is zero?"...

所以帕斯卡说：“你应该相信上帝。”但人们会说：“好吧，如果我相信永生的可能性为零呢？”……

or what if there's, I choose the wrong religion?

或者如果我选择了错误的宗教怎么办？

There are lots of religions out there or the wrong god.

那里有很多宗教或错误的神。

And what Pascal realized at the time was that you could solve this problem if religion also brought benefits in the here and now too.

帕斯卡当时意识到，如果宗教也能在此时此地带来好处，你就可以解决这个问题。

And what we're seeing is it does exactly that.

我们所看到的是它确实做到了这一点。

So let me give you an example.

让我举个例子。

Epidemiological data show that people who engage with religion, not just say, "I believe in God," but actually engage with faith, over a 15 to 20 year period, it cuts all told mor- all caused mortality by 30%.

流行病学数据显示，信奉宗教的人不仅会说“我相信上帝”，而且实际上会信奉信仰，在 15 至 20 年间，总死亡率会降低 30%。

Cuts death due to cancer and cardiovascular disease by 25%.

将癌症和心血管疾病导致的死亡减少 25%。

Reduces anxiety and depression.

减少焦虑和抑郁。

Increases people's sense of meaning and feeling that their life is flourishing.

增加人们的意义感和生活蓬勃发展的感觉。

This is what brought me to my kind of

这就是让我成为我这样的人的原因

mission today of trying to find and, and, and curate conversations between science and religion.

今天的使命是试图寻找、以及、以及策划科学与宗教之间的对话。

You can't argue with those data.

你无法反驳这些数据。

Now, for a long time people would say those studies were done cross-sectionally, right?

现在，很长一段时间以来，人们会说这些研究是横断面进行的，对吗？

And so you would say, uh, you'd look at people who are going to services and people who are not, and you'd find people are healthier when they go to services.

所以你会说，呃，你会看看那些接受服务的人和不接受服务的人，你会发现人们在接受服务时更健康。

So you could say, "Oh, religion makes people healthier." But there was an important alternative, right?

所以你可以说，“哦，宗教使人们更健康。”但还有一个重要的选择，对吗？

Maybe the people who were really sick or really depressed can't get out of bed to go to services, right?

也许那些真正生病或真正抑郁的人无法起床去接受服务，对吗？

So th- that was always an issue.

所以这一直是一个问题。

Now there's wonderful work by an epidemiologist, uh, Tyler VanderWeele from Harvard School of Public Health.

现在，哈佛大学公共卫生学院的流行病学家泰勒·范德韦勒 (Tyler VanderWeele) 做出了出色的工作。

He follows thousands and thousands of people longitudinally, 'cause you can't run a randomized control trial.

他纵向跟踪成千上万的人，因为你无法进行随机对照试验。

I can't say, "Andrew, tomorrow, if you believe in God, I want you to stop." Or, you know, "Dave, tomorrow, you don't believe in God, start going to church." Ethically, you can't do that.

我不能说：“安德鲁，明天，如果你相信上帝，我希望你停下来。”或者，你知道，“戴夫，明天，你不相信上帝，开始去教堂吧。”从道德上讲，你不能这样做。

But what you can do is follow people through time as they become more religious or stop becoming religious, l- leave the faith, et cetera.

但你能做的是跟随人们随着时间的推移变得更加虔诚或不再虔诚，离开信仰，等等。

And that's what he finds.

这就是他的发现。

And it's not just community, you know.

你知道，这不仅仅是社区。

Ano- another kind of criticism though has been, "Well, Dave, you know, these health benefits, it's just community." If they joined a bowling club, right, to use Robert Putnam's analogy of bowling alone, they would get the same health benefits.

另一种批评是，“好吧，戴夫，你知道，这些健康益处，只是社区。”如果他们加入保龄球俱乐部，对吧，用罗伯特·普特南对保龄球的比喻来说，他们会获得同样的健康益处。

What you see in the data is that the effect size, which is basically the degree, how much bang for the buck you get.

您在数据中看到的是效果大小，基本上就是程度，即您获得的收益有多少。

Yeah, being in, in community, joining clubs, having tighter social networks makes you healthier and happier.

是的，融入社区、加入俱乐部、拥有更紧密的社交网络会让你更健康、更快乐。

But the effect size is larger for religious community, right?

但对于宗教团体来说，影响更大，对吧？

They're doing something in those communities, and I think it's the practices they do that matter.

他们正在这些社区做一些事情，我认为他们所做的事情很重要。

And even among young adults where we're seeing increasing levels of anxiety and depression, even private practices, things like prayer and meditation are showing up as ways to, to buffer those and protect against them.

即使在年轻人中，我们看到焦虑和抑郁的程度不断增加，甚至私人练习、祈祷和冥想之类的事情也成为缓冲这些焦虑和抑郁的方法。

Do you observe those effects across religions?

您是否观察到这些跨宗教的影响？

Are they the same for Christianity, Judaism, for Muslims?

对于基督教、犹太教、穆斯林来说，它们是一样的吗？

And, uh, and also we could talk about the subdivisions within each of those.

而且，呃，我们还可以讨论其中每个部分的细分。

Yeah, it's a good question.

是的，这是一个好问题。

So these aren't my data.

所以这些不是我的数据。

These, these are data from Tyler VanderWeele and other folks.

这些是来自 Tyler VanderWeele 和其他人的数据。

Um, they haven't examined every religion, but when they do look across some faiths, it's, it's a pretty stable finding.

嗯，他们并没有研究每一种宗教，但是当他们确实研究某些信仰时，这是一个非常稳定的发现。

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Our Place.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商“我们的地方”。

Our Place makes my favorite pots, pans, and other cookware.

我们的地方生产我最喜欢的锅、平底锅和其他炊具。

Surprisingly, toxic compounds such as PFASs or forever chemicals are still found in 80% of non-stick pans, as well as utensils, appliances, and countless other kitchen products.

令人惊讶的是，80% 的不粘锅以及餐具、电器和无数其他厨房产品中仍然含有 PFAS 或永久化学物质等有毒化合物。

As I've discussed before on this podcast, these PFASs or forever chemicals like Teflon have been linked to major health issues such as hormone disruption, gut microbiome disruption, fertility issues, and many other health problems.

正如我之前在这个播客中讨论过的那样，这些 PFAS 或特氟龙等永久性化学物质与荷尔蒙破坏、肠道微生物群破坏、生育问题和许多其他健康问题等重大健康问题有关。

So it's really important to try and avoid them.

因此，尝试避免它们非常重要。

This is why I'm a huge fan of Our Place.

这就是为什么我是《我们的地方》的超级粉丝。

Our Place products are made with the highest quality materials and are all completely PFAS and toxin free.

我们的 Place 产品采用最优质的材料制成，完全不含 PFAS 和毒素。

I especially love their Titanium Always Pan Pro.

我特别喜欢他们的 Titanium Always Pan Pro。

It's the first non-stick pan made with zero chemicals and zero coating.

这是第一个采用零化学品和零涂层制成的不粘锅。

Instead, it uses pure titanium.

相反，它使用纯钛。

This means it has no harmful forever chemicals and does not degrade or lose its non-stick effect over time.

这意味着它不含永久有害的化学物质，并且不会随着时间的推移而降解或失去其不粘效果。

It's also beautiful to look at.

看起来也很漂亮。

I cook eggs in my Titanium Always Pan Pro almost every morning.

我几乎每天早上都会用 Titanium Always Pan Pro 煮鸡蛋。

The design allows for the eggs to cook perfectly without sticking to the pan.

该设计使鸡蛋能够完美烹饪而不会粘在锅上。

I also cook burgers and steaks in it, and it puts a really nice sear on the meat.

我还用它来做汉堡和牛排，它给肉带来了非常好的烤焦效果。

But again, nothing sticks to it so it's really easy to clean and it's even dishwasher safe.

但同样，没有任何东西粘在上面，所以它非常容易清洁，甚至可以用洗碗机清洗。

I love it and I basically use it constantly.

我喜欢它并且我基本上经常使用它。

Our Place now has a full line of Titanium Pro Cookware that uses its first of its kind titanium non-stick technology.

我们的地方现在拥有全系列的钛专业炊具，采用其首创的钛不粘技术。

So if you're looking for non-toxic, long-lasting pots and pans, go to fromourplace.com/huberman and use the code Huberman at checkout.

因此，如果您正在寻找无毒、耐用的锅碗瓢盆，请访问 fromourplace.com/huberman 并在结帐时使用代码 Huberman。

With 100-day risk-free trial, free shipping, and free returns, you can experience this terrific cookware with zero risk.

通过 100 天无风险试用、免费送货和免费退货，您可以零风险体验这款出色的炊具。

Today's episode is also brought to us by LMNT.

今天的节目也是LMNT给我们带来的。

LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't.

LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您需要的一切，没有您不需要的东西。

That means the electrolytes sodium, magnesium, and potassium in the correct amounts, but no sugar.

这意味着电解质的钠、镁和钾含量正确，但不含糖。

Proper hydration is critical for optimal brain and body function.

适当的水合作用对于大脑和身体的最佳功能至关重要。

Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish cognitive and physical performance.

即使是轻微程度的脱水也会降低认知和身体表现。

It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes.

获得充足的电解质也很重要。

The electrolytes sodium, magnesium, and potassium are vital for functioning of all the cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells.

电解质钠、镁和钾对于体内所有细胞的功能至关重要，尤其是神经元或神经细胞。

Drinking LMNT dissolved in water makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes.

饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT 可以很容易地确保您获得足够的水分和电解质。

To make sure that I'm getting proper amounts of hydration and electrolytes, I dissolve one packet of LMNT in about 16 to 32 ounces of water when I first wake up in the morning, and I drink that basically first thing in the morning.

为了确保我获得适量的水合作用和电解质，当我早上第一次醒来时，我将一包 LMNT 溶解在大约 16 至 32 盎司的水中，并且我基本上早上第一件事就是喝它。

I'll also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes.

我还会在进行任何体育锻炼时饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT，尤其是在炎热的日子里，当我大量出汗并失去水和电解质时。

LMNT has a bunch of great tasting flavors.

LMNT 有很多美味的口味。

I love the raspberry, I love the citrus flavor.

我喜欢覆盆子，我喜欢柑橘味。

Right now, LMNT has a limited edition lemonade flavor that is absolutely delicious.

现在LMNT推出了限量版柠檬水口味，绝对美味。

I hate to say that I love one more than all the others, but this lemonade flavor is right up there with my favorite other one, which is raspberry or watermelon.

我不想说我比其他所有口味都更喜欢其中一种，但这种柠檬水口味与我最喜欢的另一种口味（覆盆子或西瓜）不相上下。

Again, I can't pick just one flavor.

再说一次，我不能只选择一种口味。

I love them all.

我爱他们所有人。

If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman, spelled drink L-M-N-T dot com slash Huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with a purchase of any LMNT drink mix.

如果您想尝试 LMNT，您可以访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman（拼写为 Drink L-M-N-T .com 斜杠 Huberman），购买任意 LMNT 混合饮料即可获得免费 LMNT 样品包。

Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.I was planning to ask you this later, but, um, I'm gonna ask you now.

再说一次，这是 Drinklmnt.com/huberman 索取免费样品包。我本来打算稍后再问你这个问题，但是，嗯，我现在要问你。

It seems appropriate to ask you now, uh, what your thoughts are on, uh, this Russell's teapot business, uh, which was taught to me by my postdoc advisor, who was a staunch atheist.

现在似乎应该问你，呃，你对这个罗素的茶壶生意有什么想法，呃，这是我的博士后导师教给我的，他是一个坚定的无神论者。

Okay.

好的。

And, um, he...

而且，嗯，他...

I- I'll never forget this conversation.

我-我永远不会忘记这次谈话。

He said, uh, you know, uh,

他说，呃，你知道，呃，

he said he was an atheist.

他说他是无神论者。

Uh, I had questions about that.

呃，我对此有疑问。

Um, I believe in God.

嗯，我相信上帝。

I should be, uh, you know, uh, just clear about that now.

我应该，呃，你知道，呃，现在就清楚了。

Um, back then, I wa- I was probably a bit more, uh, in the question of that.

嗯，当时，我-我可能更多地，呃，在这个问题上。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Um, but deep down, I, I would have written in my journal, I, I believe in God.

嗯，但是在内心深处，我，我会在我的日记里写道，我，我相信上帝。

I have since I was a kid, I, and I do now.

我从小就这样，现在也是。

Um, he said, "Well, there's this..." Um, he described it as a celestial teapot, and he gave me this, this example of the celestial teapot, which was for him a rational argument as to, um, why he was atheist.

嗯，他说，“嗯，有这个……”嗯，他把它描述为一个天体茶壶，他给了我这个，这个天体茶壶的例子，这对他来说是一个理性的论证，为什么他是无神论者。

Um, I looked it up.

嗯，我查了一下。

It's not called the celestial teapot.

它不叫天上茶壶。

It's called Russell's teapot, so he got it wrong.

它叫拉塞尔的茶壶，所以他听错了。

Russell was right.

拉塞尔是对的。

So, here it is, and, and I'm paraphrasing here from something I pulled from the internet, but I verified this is, uh, accurate to Russell's teapot.

所以，就是这样，而且，我在这里转述了我从互联网上获取的一些内容，但我验证了这对于拉塞尔的茶壶来说是准确的。

"Russell's teapot is an analogy formulated by the philosopher, uh, Bertrand Russell, to illustrate the philosophic burden of proof lies on the person making empirically unfalsifiable claims, as opposed to shifting the burden of disproof to others.

“罗素的茶壶是哲学家伯特兰·罗素提出的一个类比，旨在说明哲学上的证明责任在于提出经验上不可证伪的主张的人，而不是将反驳的责任转移给其他人。

So, Russell specifically applied his analogy in the context reli- of religion.

因此，罗素特别将他的类比应用于宗教的背景中。

He wrote that, uh, if he were to assert, without offering proof, that a teapot too small to be seen by telescopes orbits the sun somewhere in space between the Earth and Mars, he could not expect anyone to believe him solely because his assertion could not be proven wrong."

他写道，呃，如果他在没有提供证据的情况下断言，一个太小而无法被望远镜看到的茶壶在地球和火星之间的太空中的某个地方围绕太阳运行，他不能指望任何人相信他，仅仅因为他的断言无法被证明是错误的。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

So, this sort of brings us back to, uh, the first, uh, part of our conversation.

所以，这让我们回到了，呃，我们谈话的第一部分。

You know, what do you think about this?

你知道，你对此有何看法？

People are walking around with Russell's teapot in their mind, saying, you know,

人们在走来走去时心里想着拉塞尔的茶壶，说，你知道，

"It, the burden of proof is on the person making the assertion, not on, um, other people to, uh, to carry a belief because it can't be falsified."

“举证责任在于做出断言的人，而不是其他人，呃，持有一种信念，因为它不能被证伪。”

It depends on your philosophy of science.

这取决于你的科学哲学。

Um, for me, I, I tend to think about this, so I'm a psychologist, so, you know, William James, the father of psychology-

嗯，对我来说，我，我倾向于思考这个问题，所以我是一名心理学家，所以，你知道，威廉·詹姆斯，心理学之父——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

had a real interest in, in religion, and he phrased this slightly differently.

对宗教真正感兴趣，他的措辞略有不同。

He had this notion of something he called an overbelief, and an overbelief is a belief for which the evidence is lacking, not...

他有一种他称之为过度相信的概念，而过度相信是一种缺乏证据的信念，而不是……

It's not disconfirmed, right?

还没有被证实，对吧？

But it's lacking, but which nonetheless

但还是有欠缺，但还是有的

feels right and leads to positive outcomes.

感觉正确并带来积极的结果。

And for him, if those two criteria were, were true, then it is rational to embrace that belief, and that's how he basically, uh, came to embrace religion.

对他来说，如果这两个标准是正确的，那么接受这种信仰就是理性的，这就是他基本上，呃，接受宗教的方式。

And so I think, again, you know, where we are is, is either of those philosophies-

所以我想，你知道，我们现在所处的位置，是这些哲学中的任何一个——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

can be valid.

可以有效。

You have to make a choice.

你必须做出选择。

It's, one is not more valid than the other.

这是，一个并不比另一个更有效。

It's based on your philosophy of science.

它基于您的科学哲学。

And for me, the question is always gonna be one of faith, right?

对我来说，问题永远是信仰，对吧？

You know, there are a lot of people who are trying to make a case, uh, I'm thinking of, of, of Ross Douthat's book, Believe.

你知道，有很多人试图证明，呃，我想到罗斯·杜塔特的书《相信》。

They're trying to make a case for, i- that it's rational to believe in religion because, oh, it's called the, the fine-tuning argument.

他们试图证明，相信宗教是理性的，因为，哦，这被称为微调论证。

Look at all the parameters in the world for, for gravity and, and other, um, um, physical coefficients.

看看世界上所有的参数，重力和其他，嗯，嗯，物理系数。

If they weren't tuned just exactly right, life could never have evolved here, and the probability against them being tuned just exactly right is low.

如果它们没有被精确地调整，生命就不可能在这里进化，而且它们被精确地调整的可能性很低。

And then people say, "Well, sure, but there can be hundreds of millions of other universes, right?" That we don't...

然后人们会说：“嗯，当然，但是可能还有数亿个其他宇宙，对吗？”以至于我们不...

In the multiverse, and so it's not that weird that we have here.

在多元宇宙中，所以我们在这里并不奇怪。

And so I just, I think

所以我只是，我想

it's never gonna be the case that you're gonna have proof.

你永远不会有证据。

You know, these arguments, these philosophies can bring you up to a certain point, but to take that final step of belief or disbelief, it's faith one way or the other.

你知道，这些论点、这些哲学可以让你到达某一点，但要迈出相信或不相信的最后一步，无论哪种方式都是信仰。

And again, it's why I think scientists need to stay in their lane.

再说一次，这就是为什么我认为科学家需要留在自己的车道上。

You know, even Richard Dawkins, right?

你知道，甚至理查德·道金斯，对吧？

The most famous atheist around, will say he cannot be absolutely sure that God doesn't exist, yet he acts like he does and he urges you to not believe.

最著名的无神论者会说他不能绝对确定上帝不存在，但他的行为就像他存在一样，并且他敦促你不要相信。

And so for me, I think let's not do that.

所以对我来说，我认为我们不要这样做。

You know, I, when we talk about these practices, how they lead to health and well-being, I can't tell you if they are divinely inspired from a creator who cares about its creations and kind of gave them a roadmap or a user's guide to make life better, or if they're cultural adaptations of people figuring stuff out over millennia.

你知道，我，当我们谈论这些实践，它们如何带来健康和福祉时，我无法告诉你它们是否受到了一位关心其创作的创造者的神圣启发，并为它们提供了路线图或用户指南以让生活变得更美好，或者它们是否是人们几千年来摸索的文化适应。

But we don't need to answer that

但我们不需要回答这个问题

to have respect for them and to study how they work and to see what we can learn from them.

尊重他们，研究他们的工作方式，看看我们能从他们身上学到什么。

And if we're not willing to do that, we're slowing down the science of human flourishing, in my view.

在我看来，如果我们不愿意这样做，我们就会减缓人类繁荣科学的发展。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

In a similar vein, I think, um, in the position that I found myself in the last few years of doing public health education-

同样，我认为，嗯，在过去几年进行公共卫生教育时我发现自己处于这样的境地——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

and public science education, you know, I, I've embraced for a long time the idea that there are behavioral tools that really help, things like meditation-

和公共科学教育，你知道，我，我很长一段时间以来一直相信有一些行为工具确实有帮助，比如冥想——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

breath work-

呼吸工作-

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

um, certainly exercise, um, maybe even deliberate cold exposure, heat exposure-

嗯，当然是锻炼，嗯，甚至可能是故意的冷暴露，热暴露——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

sauna, et cetera.

桑拿等。

I also embrace prescription drugs and-

我也接受处方药并且-

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

their utility in some instances, right?

它们在某些情况下有用，对吗？

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

And I embrace certain over-the-counter compounds.

我喜欢某些非处方药。

We call them supplements, but they're, um, compounds that nowadays more and more people would say, "Yeah, maybe taking some vitamin D." People are maybe taking omega-3s.

我们称它们为补充剂，但它们是，嗯，现在越来越多的人会说，“是的，也许服用一些维生素 D”的化合物。人们可能正在服用 omega-3。

Maybe they're not.

也许他们不是。

Maybe they think anything that a doctor doesn't prescribe is, or that your mother didn't prescribe is, is not worthwhile.

也许他们认为医生没有开出的处方，或者你母亲没有开出的处方，都是不值得的。

But I take the view that all of these are, uh, are useful for promoting health.

但我认为所有这些都对促进健康有用。

I sort of, um, take the same view when it comes to, uh, the notion that, uh, religious belief or, uh-

我有点，呃，当涉及到，呃，宗教信仰或者，呃-

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

stro- or even strong belief in God, praying, et cetera, could be useful.

对上帝的强烈信仰、祈祷等可能会有用。

Now, to me, these aren't mutually exclusive.

现在，对我来说，这些并不是相互排斥的。

Um, and I think for some reason, and it may be generational, uh, I do think that there's a certain generation-...

嗯，我认为出于某种原因，这可能是世代相传的，呃，我确实认为有某一代人......

um, above, uh, m- mine that for them, if a pill was not prescribed by a doctor, it must be snake oil.

嗯，上面，呃，我的，对于他们来说，如果药不是医生开的，那一定是蛇油。

And

并且

that's crazy if you think about the fact that, you know, in the 1970s and '80s, there was this big movement to try and get meditation into universities.

如果你想想这样一个事实，你知道，在 20 世纪 70 年代和 80 年代，有一场试图将冥想引入大学的大运动，那就太疯狂了。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

And those people were kind of shunned, psychedelics.

那些人是一种被回避的、迷幻的人。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

They were working with the devil.

他们正在与魔鬼合作。

Yeah.

是的。

Shunned.

回避。

People were, were fired.

人们被解雇了。

Yeah.

是的。

Now, I can, um, tell you that tens, if not hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars are being used to study psychedelics-

现在，我可以，嗯，告诉你，纳税人的数千万甚至数亿美元都被用来研究迷幻药——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

in laboratories at major universities like yours and mine, and a bunch of others in the US and around the world.

在像你我这样的主要大学以及美国和世界各地的许多其他大学的实验室中。

So what was once considered sorcery, um, and pseudoscience often becomes the topic of a discreet study.

因此，曾经被认为是巫术、嗯、伪科学的东西常常成为谨慎研究的主题。

Of course, with controlled conditions, you get better understanding of what those things can and can't do.

当然，在受控条件下，您可以更好地了解这些东西可以做什么和不能做什么。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

But I think we're arriving at the time where religion and science are going to start to be, um, looked at, uh, with scientific rigor.

但我认为我们已经到了这样一个时代：宗教和科学将开始被……呃，以科学的严谨性来看待。

And I think that's going to bring about more acceptance of God and religion in terms of how the mind works and, and well-being.

我认为这将在思想如何运作和幸福方面带来更多对上帝和宗教的接受。

I agree with you, but let's, let's talk about that older generation 'cause you're right.

我同意你的观点，但是让我们来谈谈老一代，因为你是对的。

I have many in my family too, who, you know, if the doctor doesn't prescribe it, don't take it.

我家里也有很多人，你知道，如果医生没有开药，就不要服用。

But even during that time period when those folks were younger, the pharmaceutical companies, I make this argument in my book, the pharmaceutical companies

但即使在那些人还年轻的时期，制药公司，我在我的书中提出了这个论点，制药公司

had technology to make all kinds of drugs, but they didn't know where to look.

拥有制造各种药物的技术，但他们不知道去哪里寻找。

And so what did they do?

那么他们做了什么？

They sent people to traditional cultures around the world to find substances that say, say, the traditional cultures say can help people.

他们派人到世界各地的传统文化去寻找传统文化认为可以帮助人们的物质。

They called it bioprospecting at the time.

当时他们称之为生物勘探。

Um, and you know, sure, a lot of those didn't do anything, but some did.

嗯，你知道，当然，其中很多人没有做任何事情，但有些人做了。

And from those, we've got, we've found wonderful chemotherapy drugs, drugs that reduce pain, et cetera.

从这些药物中，我们发现了很棒的化疗药物、减轻疼痛的药物等等。

And we wouldn't have done that if we didn't

如果我们不这样做的话，我们就不会这么做

let go of our arrogance that some of this traditional wisdom might not be valid.

放下我们的傲慢，认为某些传统智慧可能无效。

And so what I argue for is a terrible word, but instead of bioprospecting, I call it religioprospecting, right?

所以我主张的是一个可怕的词，但我称其为宗教勘探，而不是生物勘探，对吗？

We should go back to these traditions, find these practices, do exactly what you're saying, study them in terms of the scientific method, which I fully support and believe in as a scientist, and see what they do.

我们应该回到这些传统，找到这些实践，完全按照你所说的去做，用我作为一名科学家完全支持和相信的科学方法来研究它们，看看它们做了什么。

And we're finding they can do a lot.

我们发现他们可以做很多事情。

Tell us about some of those findings, because they're really striking, um, in terms of what specific practices and belief systems, um, can do in terms of improving our physical and mental health.

告诉我们其中一些发现，因为它们确实令人震惊，嗯，就具体的实践和信仰体系而言，嗯，可以改善我们的身心健康。

And I'm curious as we have that conversation, if you could emphasize where sometimes it's a positive effect, a, a new positive thing created-

我很好奇，当我们进行那次谈话时，你是否可以强调有时这是一种积极的影响，a，创造了一种新的积极的事物——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

as opposed to where you personally might, uh, view the data as more pointing to, uh, when one does those practices, it doesn't allow the brain to go into its default pathway of worry, et cetera.

相反，你个人可能会认为这些数据更多地表明，当一个人进行这些练习时，它不会让大脑进入其默认的担忧路径，等等。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

'Cause I think most people can accept that stress is bad for the brain and body.

因为我认为大多数人都能接受压力对大脑和身体有害这一事实。

Excessive stress is bad for the brain and body.

过度的压力对大脑和身体都有害。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

And so anytime we replace a thought or a behavior with something, you potentially are removing the, the possibility that that default state was stress, right?

因此，每当我们用某种东西取代想法或行为时，你就可能消除默认状态是压力的可能性，对吧？

Sure.

当然。

So I, I, I'm asking you to do this now because I think that positive effects in science, um, sometimes seem obvious.

所以我，我，我现在要求你们这样做，因为我认为科学上的积极影响，嗯，有时似乎是显而易见的。

Like, oh, you, you know, maybe pray for a certain number of minutes or meditate, you get an effect.

就像，哦，你，你知道，也许祈祷一定分钟或冥想，你会得到效果。

But there's also a question of what, what the opportunity cost was.

但还有一个问题是机会成本是什么。

What, what weren't you doing in that, uh, five minutes-

呃，那五分钟里你没做什么——

Sure

当然可以

...

...

that might have, that might have been detrimental?

这可能是有害的？

Sure.

当然。

And there's a reason I'm setting it up this way, um, that we'll get to a little bit later.

我这样设置是有原因的，嗯，我们稍后会谈到。

Okay.

好的。

Let me, let me give you two examples.

让我，让我给你举两个例子。

And I, and I'll start with one that actually really started me down this road.

我将从真正让我走上这条路的一个开始。

Um, I had a student, uh, named Paul Condon, who's now a professor at, in Oregon.

嗯，我有一个学生，呃，名叫保罗·康登（Paul Condon），他现在是俄勒冈州的一名教授。

And he was very interested in, in meditation.

他对冥想非常感兴趣。

And even if you read the New York Times or The Atlantic, it'll tell you, "Oh, meditation will lower your blood, blood pressure.

即使你读《纽约时报》或《大西洋月刊》，它也会告诉你，“哦，冥想会降低你的血压。

It'll increase your standardized test scores.

它将提高您的标准化考试成绩。

It will increase your executive control." Does all those things, and that's great.

它将增强你的执行控制力。”做所有这些事情，那就太好了。

But if you talk to the monks, they'll say, "That's not why it was created," right?

但如果你和僧侣交谈，他们会说，“这不是它被创造的原因，”对吗？

It's probably apocryphal, but, but, you know, the, the saying goes that the Buddha said, "I, I teach one thing and one thing only, which is the end of suffering." And meditation was a tool that the Buddha believed would help people do this.

这可能是杜撰的，但是，但是，但是，你知道，俗话说，佛陀说：“我，我只教导一件事，而且只教导一件事，那就是痛苦的终结。”佛陀相信冥想是一种可以帮助人们做到这一点的工具。

And so when we looked around...

所以当我们环顾四周时......

I'm a social psychologist, so I study behavior.

我是一名社会心理学家，所以我研究行为。

There was no evidence of this, and so we decided we were gonna put this to the test.

没有证据表明这一点，所以我们决定对此进行测试。

And so we recruited people who had never meditated before, and they were either put on a, on a wait list or they came for eight weeks to, uh, a sacred space on campus where they were led in meditation at the, at the feet of a Buddhist lama.

因此，我们招募了以前从未冥想过的人，他们要么被列入候补名单，要么来到校园的一个神圣空间，在佛教喇嘛的脚下冥想八周。

And she created, you know, practices for them in MP3s, so they can go home and practice.

她为他们制作了 MP3 练习，这样他们就可以回家练习。

After eight weeks, we invited each of them individually back to the lab.

八周后，我们单独邀请他们每个人回到实验室。

And we told them, "We're gonna measure your memory.

我们告诉他们，“我们要测量你的记忆力。

We're gonna measure your executive control, basically your ability to override your, your own impulses." That wasn't the experiment.

我们将衡量你的执行控制力，基本上是你克服自己冲动的能力。”那不是实验。

The experiment actually happened in the waiting room to the lab.

实验实际上是在实验室的候诊室里进行的。

So when you come into the lab, there's a room with three chairs.

所以当你进入实验室时，你会看到一个房间里有三把椅子。

And, um, people were sitting in two of them, and these were actors that we hired.

而且，嗯，人们坐在其中两个座位上，这些是我们聘请的演员。

You know, these people coming into the study thought they were just other people waiting in the room.

你知道，这些进入书房的人以为他们只是在房间里等待的其他人。

And so there was one chair left, and so the person would take the last chair.

所以还剩下一张椅子，所以这个人会坐最后一张椅子。

About two or three minutes later, a person would come down the hallway, also an actor who worked for us, who was on crutches and wearing one of those, you know, boots you put on your foot when it's, when it's broken.

大约两三分钟后，一个人会从走廊走来，也是一位为我们工作的演员，他拄着拐杖，穿着一双靴子，你知道，当你的脚坏了时，你会穿上靴子。

It wasn't really broken.

它并没有真的坏掉。

Looking like she was in, in a good amount of pain.

看起来她很痛苦。

She came into the room.

她走进房间。

All the three chairs were taken.

三把椅子都被占了。

At that point, um, she would kind of lean back against the wall, let out a little whimper of pain.

那时，嗯，她会靠在墙上，发出一声痛苦的呜咽。

And what we wanted to look at is, would somebody help her?

我们想知道的是，有人会帮助她吗？

Now, the two actors in the chairs, we told, "Do what you do when you're on the subway," right?

现在，我们告诉坐在椅子上的两位演员，“做你在地铁上所做的事情”，对吧？

"You don't wanna give up your seat.

“你不想让座。

Don't look at the person.

不要看那个人。

Thumb your phone.

拇指你的手机。

Ignore them." Right?

别理他们。”正确的？

So we're creating a situation where people aren't helping.

所以我们正在创造一种人们不提供帮助的情况。

And our question was, would the person who was in the study, in the third chair actually help this person?In the control condition, people who weren't meditating, about 15% of them got up and said, "Oh, do you want my chair?

我们的问题是，研究中坐在第三把椅子上的人真的会帮助这个人吗？在控制条件下，没有冥想的人中，大约有 15% 站起来说：“哦，你想要我的椅子吗？

Can I help you?

我可以帮你吗？

Can I hold something for you?" In the meditation condition, it was close to 50% of people who did this, right?

我可以帮你拿东西吗？”冥想状态下，接近50%的人都这么做过吧？

We tripled the rate at which somebody felt compassion for somebody else in pain and was willing to help them.

我们将人们对痛苦中的其他人感到同情并愿意帮助他们的比率提高了两倍。

That's a pretty big effect in terms of behavioral science.

就行为科学而言，这是一个相当大的影响。

So that was a small study, so, so we've replicated it.

这是一项小型研究，所以我们复制了它。

We've also done it in a, in a situation where someone is, is provoking you.

我们也曾在有人激怒你的情况下做过这件事。

So in this situation, people who had been meditating or not came to the lab.

所以在这种情况下，无论是在冥想还是没有冥想的人都来到了实验室。

And there's a paradigm that's designed to evoke anger.

有一种范式旨在激起愤怒。

And the way it works is you create a, um...

它的工作方式是你创建一个，嗯......

You spend five minutes to write a story about your life's goals.

你花五分钟写一个关于你人生目标的故事。

You have to then present this to the other subject, who they didn't know was an actor for us.

然后你必须把这个呈现给另一个对象，他们不知道他是我们的演员。

He listens to this and he says, "Really?

他听了之后说道：“真的吗？

That's your plan?

这就是你的计划？

That doesn't make any sense," right?

这没有任何意义，”对吧？

And this was a, a, a, um, paradigm developed by an anger researcher named Thun- Thun- uh, named Tom Denson.

这是一个，一个，一个，嗯，由一位名叫图恩-图恩-汤姆·丹森的愤怒研究者开发的范式。

And we know it creates, you know, the HPA axis anger response, and so it's really well-validated.

我们知道它会产生 HPA 轴愤怒反应，因此它确实得到了充分验证。

And people either meditated, or in this case, the control was an active control, they had done Lumosity brain training for, for a while.

人们要么冥想，要么在这种情况下，控制是主动控制，他们已经进行了一段时间的 Lumosity 大脑训练。

Um, and what we found is that those who ha- they were then given the chance to cause punishment to this person.

嗯，我们发现那些人有机会对这个人进行惩罚。

I don't, I won't go into it all, but they thought there was a way for them to cause this person pain.

我不，我不会详细讨论这一切，但他们认为有一种方法可以让这个人痛苦。

The people who didn't meditate were willing to cause this guy a good amount of pain.

不冥想的人愿意让这家伙承受很大的痛苦。

Now, it didn't actually happen, of course, but they thought it would.

当然，现在这并没有真正发生，但他们认为它会发生。

Um, those who had meditated

嗯，那些冥想过的人

refused to cause him any pain.

拒绝给他带来任何痛苦。

They still said what he did was wrong, and they wanted to talk to him and tell him what he did was wrong,

他们仍然说他做错了，他们想和他谈谈，告诉他他做错了，

but they thought that creating more pain and suffering was not the way to go about it.

但他们认为制造更多痛苦并不是解决问题的方法。

And so for us, you know, right here was evidence that these practices make you kinder, make you more compassionate.

所以对我们来说，你知道，这里有证据表明这些做法让你变得更友善，让你更有同情心。

The other way, what does it save you from in terms of stress?

另一方面，它可以让你免受什么压力？

This isn't my work, but there's a lot of work on prayer.

这不是我的工作，但是有很多关于祈祷的工作。

And so when people pray, especially if you're reciting formal prayers, not so much if you're just having a conversation with God, but if you're saying the rosary or you're reciting, you know, Hindu sutras or any formulaic prayer, what it typically does is it reduces your respiration rate.

因此，当人们祈祷时，特别是当你背诵正式的祈祷文时，如果你只是与上帝交谈，那么就不那么重要了，但如果你念念珠或背诵印度教经文或任何公式化的祈祷文，它通常会降低你的呼吸频率。

Not only does it reduce your respiration rate, but it also tends to increase the duration of the exhalations.

它不仅会降低您的呼吸频率，而且还会增加呼气的持续时间。

And this is for meditation as well.

这也是为了冥想。

What does that do?

那有什么作用？

I mean, you talk about breathwork a lot on your show, right?

我的意思是，你在节目中经常谈论呼吸，对吧？

What it does is it, um,

它的作用是，嗯，

increases vagal tone, reduces heart rate.

增加迷走神经张力，降低心率。

It puts the body in a state where it is

它使身体处于一种状态

not expecting, um, threat or challenge in the environment, where it wants to engage and be more open to socialization.

不期待，嗯，环境中的威胁或挑战，它想要参与并对社会化更加开放。

It reduces cortisol responses.

它减少皮质醇反应。

And so what it's basically doing there is, yes, you're saying the words, but it's reducing the stress in your body.

所以它基本上所做的就是，是的，你在说这些话，但它正在减轻你身体的压力。

And even if you're praying about things that are bothering you, things that you're sad or anxious about, by saying those prayers over and over again, stuff travels up the vagus, right?

即使你正在为困扰你的事情、让你悲伤或焦虑的事情祈祷，通过一遍又一遍地说这些祈祷，东西就会沿着迷走神经传播，对吗？

And so by increasing exhalations, by slowing the respiration rate, it's telling your mind, "You're safe.

因此，通过增加呼气，减慢呼吸频率，它告诉你的大脑，“你很安全。

Things are okay." And then thereby it's reducing the stress.

事情没问题。”从而减轻压力。

And so when you look at that data from Tyler VanderWeel that I mentioned on young adults who pray, why does it reduce stress?

因此，当你查看我提到的泰勒·范德韦尔（Tyler VanderWeel）关于祈祷的年轻人的数据时，你会发现为什么祈祷可以减轻压力？

It's basically a way of increasing vagal tone in that, in that moment.

这基本上是在那一刻增加迷走神经张力的一种方式。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

And it helps you sit with the ideas of the things that are bothering you while physiologically your body's telling you you're safe.

它可以帮助你静下心来思考那些困扰你的事情，同时你的身体在生理上告诉你你很安全。

Thank you for reminding everyone that signals travel up the vagus-

谢谢您提醒大家，信号是沿着迷走神经传播的-

Yeah

是啊

...

...

in addition to the vagus nerve c- uh, controlling slowing of the heart rate when you exhale, because I think we hear a lot about the vagus pathway, and, um, most people get it wrong.

除了迷走神经之外，控制呼气时心率的减慢，因为我认为我们听到了很多关于迷走神经通路的信息，而且，嗯，大多数人都弄错了。

You got it exactly right.

你说得完全正确。

Um, there's a lot of information flowing out from the body.

嗯，有很多信息从身体里流出。

And that actually helps answer the question that was, um, in the back of my mind heading into this conversation, which was, um...

这实际上有助于回答这个问题，嗯，在我进入这次谈话时脑海中浮现的问题是，嗯......

Well, I'll, I'll tell by way of anecdote how I arrived there.

好吧，我会，我会通过轶事来讲述我是如何到达那里的。

Uh, my high school girlfriend was Greek Orthodox.

呃，我高中时的女朋友是希腊东正教徒。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

A lot of Greeks in our family.

我们家里有很多希腊人。

And it, it wasn't like

而它，并不像

that movie, My Big Fat Greek Wedding.

那部电影《我盛大的希腊婚礼》。

But it wasn't dissimilar either.

但它也没有什么不同。

Yeah.

是的。

To go over there, you know, and Greek Easter and, like, people were breaking plates and all the festivities.

去那里，你知道，还有希腊复活节，人们都在打破盘子和所有的庆祝活动。

But one thing I learned spending time with people in the Greek Orthodox community is, um, there's a lot of prayer-

但我在与希腊东正教社区的人们相处时学到的一件事是，嗯，有很多祈祷——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

um, in their family.

嗯，在他们的家庭里。

Uh, there were also a lot of use of worry beads.

呃，还有很多使用忧心珠的。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Um, you know, these, like, beads that people would, um, would use.

嗯，你知道，这些就像人们会使用的珠子。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Not unlike spinners, right?

和旋转器没什么不同，对吧？

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Um, but, uh, often while reciting prayer.

嗯，但是，呃，经常在背诵祈祷的时候。

This was more in the older generation in, in her family and, and friends.

这更多的是在老一辈，在她的家人和朋友中。

Um, and there was also a lot of superstition.

嗯，还有很多迷信。

That comes up in that movie.

那部电影中出现了这一点。

But there was a lot of superstition, so I asked her, I was like, "Why, why all the superstition?

但有很多迷信，所以我问她，“为什么，为什么有这么多迷信？

Uh, why the worry beads?" And she said, "Oh, because, um,

呃，为什么要担心珠子？”她说，“哦，因为，嗯，

that replaces what the mind would be doing-"

这取代了头脑会做的事情——”

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

"...

“……

if you weren't manipulating these beads and, and, um, carrying out, you know, kind of superstitious activities." Like, the superstitious activities, as long as they don't t- take over your life-

如果你没有操纵这些珠子，并且，嗯，进行，你知道的，某种迷信活动。”就像迷信活动，只要它们不-占据你的生活-

Right

右

...

...

um, replace the things that are much worse.

嗯，更换那些更糟糕的东西。

Darker thoughts, m- more terrifying ideas about

更黑暗的想法，更可怕的想法

terrifying things that, that you don't want to happen.

可怕的事情，你不希望发生。

So it's about, it's about replacing-

所以这是关于，这是关于替换-

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

a- all of that with, uh, with

a-所有这一切都与，呃，与

repeating themes, literally loops of, of thought-

重复主题，字面上的循环，思想-

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

that, um, of course they could break out of and in- interact.

嗯，他们当然可以脱离并互动。

I'm not suggesting all Greeks are like this, by the way.

顺便说一句，我并不是说所有希腊人都是这样。

Yeah.

是的。

I love Greek culture.

我喜欢希腊文化。

I love the food.

我喜欢这里的食物。

I love the, I think they're wonderful people.

我喜欢他们，我认为他们是很棒的人。

Um, but it's very interesting that, at least within that culture, they've adopted su- quote, unquote, "superstitions" are somewhat accepted.

嗯，但很有趣的是，至少在那种文化中，他们采用了su-quote，unquote，“迷信”在某种程度上被接受了。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Again, they're somewhat generational.

再说一次，他们在某种程度上是同代人。

Um......

嗯……

worry beads and prayer and ritual, you know, and all these things sort of blend together seamlessly.

你知道，忧念珠、祈祷和仪式，所有这些东西都无缝地融合在一起。

Like he wouldn't say, "Oh, you know, they're over there using worry beads, then they're doing superstitious activities or, um, or reciting things in a superstitious way." But, you know, it's all kind of blended into the culture in a way that they seem like very happy people.

就像他不会说，“哦，你知道，他们在那里使用忧心珠，然后他们在做迷信活动，或者，嗯，或者以迷信的方式背诵东西。”但是，你知道，这一切都融入了文化，让他们看起来非常快乐。

Yeah.

是的。

I must say.

我必须说。

Very jo- joyful a lot of the time, a lot of the time.

很多时候非常快乐，很多时候。

Yeah, I mean, I, the way I like to think about these rituals that, as you're mentioning is they're really sophisticated mind-body practices.

是的，我的意思是，我喜欢以我喜欢的方式思考这些仪式，正如你提到的，它们是真正复杂的身心练习。

Like, you know, we're- we're a culture that wants the life hack.

就像，你知道，我们是一种想要生活小窍门的文化。

Gimme the life hack so that I can study more.

给我一些生活窍门，这样我就可以学习更多。

Gimme the life hack so that I can save money or lose weight.

给我一些生活窍门，这样我就可以省钱或减肥。

Rituals are like sophisticated

仪式就像复杂的

packages of life hacks, where a life hack is like playing a single note on a piano, a ritual is like a symphony.

生活窍门就像在钢琴上弹奏一个音符，仪式就像一首交响乐。

So let me give you an example that kind of picks up on what you're saying.

所以让我给你举一个例子来说明你所说的内容。

So one other thing that cuts across everybody's lives, unfortunately, is that we have to, we will grieve at some point.

不幸的是，影响每个人生活的另一件事是我们必须这样做，我们在某个时候会感到悲伤。

We will lose somebody and we will have the pain.

我们会失去一个人，我们会感到痛苦。

Um, and so I was interested in looking at, at mourning rituals, right?

嗯，所以我对哀悼仪式很感兴趣，对吧？

And what is one thing that almost all religions do when somebody passes?

当某人去世时，几乎所有宗教都会做的一件事是什么？

You- you eulogize this person, and it seems normal.

你——你歌颂这个人，这看起来很正常。

But when you think about it, it's kind of strange, because if I just lost a job that I loved or if my wife just decided she was going to leave me, I wouldn't want to think about daily how wonderful this person was or this job was because it would increase the pain.

但仔细想想，这有点奇怪，因为如果我刚刚失去了一份我喜欢的工作，或者如果我的妻子决定要离开我，我就不会每天都想这个人或这份工作有多棒，因为这会增加痛苦。

But with someone passing, it does the opposite.

但如果有人经过，效果就会相反。

So George Bonanno, who's one of the nation's leading, um, bereavement researchers at Columbia, he says one of the biggest predictors of who can move through grief successfully, and by that I mean it doesn't get too intense or it doesn't go on too long that it becomes paralyzing, is who can consolidate positive memories of the deceased person?

乔治·博南诺（George Bonanno）是哥伦比亚大学全国领先的丧亲研究人员之一，他说，谁能够成功度过悲伤，我的意思是，悲伤不会变得太强烈，也不会持续太久而导致瘫痪，最大的预测因素之一是，谁能够巩固对死者的积极记忆？

The better you are able at doing that, the more you'll move through grief successfully.

你越能做到这一点，你就越能成功地度过悲伤。

And then you talking about superstitions, you know, if you look at, at the Jewish mourning ritual of, of Shiva, and I won't say this is a superstition, but there are elements to it that some people think are strange.

然后你谈到迷信，你知道，如果你看看犹太人的湿婆哀悼仪式，我不会说这是迷信，但其中有一些元素有些人认为很奇怪。

Like when someone passes, you cover your mirror.

就像有人经过时，你遮住镜子一样。

Why would you cover your mirror?

为什么要遮住镜子？

Well, there's lots of research in psychology that shows when you look into a mirror, whatever emotion you were feeling becomes intensified.

嗯，有很多心理学研究表明，当你照镜子时，你感受到的任何情绪都会变得更加强烈。

So if you're happy and you look into a mirror, you'll feel more happy.

所以，如果你快乐的话，照照镜子，你会感觉更快乐。

If you're sad, you'll feel more sad.

如果你悲伤，你会感到更悲伤。

Those are solid data?

这些都是可靠的数据吗？

Those are solid data from like the 1970s or '80s.

这些都是 20 世纪 70 年代或 80 年代的可靠数据。

Interesting.

有趣的。

Yeah.

是的。

And so, um, they would give people emotional inductions.

所以呢,嗯,会给人一种情感上的诱导。

They'd have group who would look into the mirrors and groups who didn't.

他们分为会照镜子的人和不照镜子的人。

They would then measure their emotions after.

然后他们会衡量自己的情绪。

Always goes up.

总是会上涨。

Selfies.

自拍照。

Yeah.

是的。

I'm just saying.

我只是说说而已。

Just kidding.

只是在开玩笑。

And so by simply covering mirrors at a time when you are feeling intense sadness and grief, it reduces that.

因此，当您感到强烈的悲伤和悲伤时，只需遮住镜子，就可以减少这种情况。

They also, and during Shiva you're supposed to reduce self-focus.

他们也一样，在湿婆神期间你应该减少自我关注。

So you're not supposed to shave, you're not supposed to wear your best clothes.

所以你不应该刮胡子，你不应该穿最好的衣服。

There's work coming out showing that reductions in self-focus, in focusing on you and your needs, actually reduces grief.

有研究表明，减少自我关注，减少对自己和自己需求的关注，实际上可以减少悲伤。

It's also the case that

也有这样的情况

every day during the seven days of Shiva, your community has to come with, come to your house and, uh, prayers are said in what's called a minion, which is a minimum of 10 people.

在湿婆节的 7 天里，每天，你的社区都必须一起来到你家，呃，以所谓的“奴才”的形式进行祈祷，至少有 10 个人。

So people come and they will say prayers together, and while they're saying prayers, they're kind of, you know, swaying in unison, saying the same words in unison.

所以人们来了，他们会一起祈祷，当他们祈祷的时候，你知道，他们会齐声摇摆，齐声说同样的话。

That's something in psychology we call motor synchrony, right?

这就是心理学中我们所说的运动同步性，对吧？

What is motor synchrony?

什么是电机同步？

It's simply moving your body in synchrony with someone else.

它只是让你的身体与其他人同步移动。

So in my lab, we've shown that if we bring people in and we have them engage in motor synchrony, so, you know, let's say you and, you and I, Andrew, don't know each other.

所以在我的实验室里，我们已经证明，如果我们让人们参与进来，让他们参与运动同步，那么，你知道，假设你和我，安德鲁，彼此不认识。

We sit down.

我们坐下来。

Um, you put on earphones, I put on earphones or headphones, and in front of us is a little sensor.

嗯,你戴上耳机,我戴上耳机或者耳机,在我们面前就是一个小传感器。

It's really not a sensor, but it looks like a little pad.

它实际上不是一个传感器，但它看起来像一个小垫子。

And we play tones, and you're supposed to tap that sensor every time you hear the tone.

我们会播放音调，每次听到音调时您都应该点击该传感器。

And in some conditions, we have these people who have never met, hear simultaneous tones, so they're tapping in unison.

在某些情况下，我们让这些从未见过面的人听到同时的音调，因此他们会齐声敲击。

In other cases, they're completely random, and so they're not synchronized at all.

在其他情况下，它们是完全随机的，因此它们根本不同步。

Through a whole

通过一个整体

set of shenanigans that I won't go into, what then happens is, is one of the persons is, is put in a situation where they need help to complete a task or they're gonna be stuck there for a long time and not get credit for this study.

一系列我不会讨论的恶作剧，然后发生的是，其中一个人，被置于需要帮助才能完成任务的境地，否则他们将被困在那里很长一段时间并且无法获得这项研究的学分。

If we had tapped in unison, people report feeling more connection to this person.

如果我们一致点击，人们就会感觉与这个人的联系更加紧密。

They report feeling more compassion for their plight, and by 30% more, they're willing to go help that person, spend their time taking on some of that person's burden.

他们报告说，他们对自己的困境感到更加同情，并且愿意帮助那个人、花时间承担那个人的一些负担的意愿增加了 30%。

Now, if you ask them why did they do this, they'll say, "You know, I, I feel like I must know this person.

现在，如果你问他们为什么这样做，他们会说，“你知道，我，我觉得我必须认识这个人。

Like maybe he was in my class last semester or maybe it was that party I was at." But that action of synchrony, right, is a cue to the mind that these two are joined.

就像上学期他可能在我的班级里，或者可能是我参加的那个聚会。”但这种同步动作，对吧，是对大脑的暗示，表明这两者是结合在一起的。

We kind of see this if you see flocks of birds or you see schools of fish, you kind of see a greater whole even out of individuals because they're moving together.

如果你看到鸟群或鱼群，我们就会看到这一点，你会看到一个更大的整体，甚至是个体，因为它们一起移动。

And so it's an ancient marker to the mind that we are joined.

因此，对于我们来说，这是一个古老的标志，表明我们是一体的。

People don't have insight to that, but yet they feel that connection and they can't explain it, so they create a story for it.

人们对此没有洞察力，但他们感觉到这种联系并且无法解释它，所以他们为此创造了一个故事。

What happens at Shiva when you say these prayers?

当你做这些祈祷时，湿婆会发生什么？

You're surrounded by at least 10 people who are doing them in synchrony with you.

您周围至少有 10 个与您同步执行这些操作的人。

What is that gonna do?

那要做什么？

It's gonna increase the empathy and the compassion you feel.

它会增加你的同理心和同情心。

It also happens just in religious community in general.

一般来说，这种情况也发生在宗教界。

Like I talked earlier about why are the effects for religious community better.

就像我之前谈到的为什么对宗教社区的影响更好。

What are you normally doing?

你平时都在做什么？

You're singing together.

你们一起唱歌。

You're praying together.

你们一起祈祷。

You're sitting and kneeling together.

你们坐在一起，跪在一起。

That's a subtle signal to the mind that you are more connected, and it will increase your empathy for each other.

这是一个微妙的信号，表明你们之间的联系更加紧密，并且会增加你们对彼此的同理心。

Having been a summer camp counselor in college, uh, it was incredible to see the transition between the first day kind of shyness and awkwardness of the kids, and then you get them singing together or, or hanging out around a campfire one night.

作为一名大学夏令营辅导员，呃，看到孩子们第一天的害羞和尴尬之间的转变，然后你让他们一起唱歌，或者有一天晚上在篝火旁闲逛，真是令人难以置信。

By the next day, it's almost like they'd known each other for a year.

到了第二天，他们就好像认识一年了一样。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Um, the, you know, there were other factors at play there, uh, but it's remarkable.

嗯，你知道，还有其他因素在起作用，但是这是值得注意的。

And, um, I, I believe......

还有，嗯，我，我相信……

that nervous systems link up relatively easily if they're given the right, um-

如果神经系统被赋予正确的权限，它们就会相对容易地连接起来，嗯-

Yeah, they're gonna train with each other.

是的，他们会一起训练。

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

right op- the right opportunity.

right op-正确的机会。

Uh, it's just inherent to our species and to, you know, schools of fish have lateral lines.

呃，这是我们物种固有的，你知道，鱼群都有侧线。

They measure each other's, uh, electrical signals without, uh, without trying.

他们测量彼此的，呃，电信号，没有，呃，没有尝试。

I think humans, uh, we, I think we overemphasize the, the extent to which this happens through speech.

我认为人类，呃，我们，我认为我们过分强调了这种通过言语发生的程度。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

I think it happens a lot more through bodily-

我认为这更多地是通过身体发生的——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

things and, um, we had an expert in, uh, the evolution of human speech on here a few years ago, Erich Jarvis, who's a, a, a, uh, cl- uh, excuse me, not Columbia, The Rockefeller.

嗯，几年前我们这里有一位人类语言进化方面的专家，Erich Jarvis，他是一个，一个，一个，呃，呃，呃，对不起，不是哥伦比亚洛克菲勒。

I almost insulted him- ...

我差点就侮辱了他——

in New York.

在纽约。

He would never say that.

他永远不会这么说。

Um, and Eric, um, is a very accomplished dancer in addition to the, the incredible science he does.

嗯，埃里克，嗯，除了他所做的令人难以置信的科学之外，他还是一位非常有成就的舞者。

And he told me that people now believe, based on genetics, anatomy, and more, that song evolved prior to spoken language.

他告诉我，根据遗传学、解剖学等，人们现在相信歌曲是在口语之前进化的。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Which makes sense.

这是有道理的。

And so, song and dance were the more, um, evolutionarily ancient forms of language.

因此，歌曲和舞蹈是进化上更古老的语言形式。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

And speech came out of that.

言语就由此而来。

So, it makes sense that we would, that we would bond that way.

因此，我们会以这种方式建立联系是有道理的。

Um, you mentioned, um, people, uh, sitting shiva i- in Judaism.

嗯，你提到，嗯，人们，呃，坐在犹太教中的湿婆神。

What other sorts of, um, activities, uh, in other religions that you see around grieving seem to serve this kind of purpose?

你在其他宗教中看到的关于悲伤的其他类型的活动似乎是为了达到这种目的？

I've been to an Irish wake.

我参加过爱尔兰守灵活动。

That was definitely a different experience.

那绝对是一次不同的体验。

People laughing and telling s- uh, jokes and stories.

人们笑着讲——呃，笑话和故事。

There was some crying too.

也有人哭了。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Um, certainly grieving was happening, but in a very different way.

嗯，悲伤确实发生了，但方式却截然不同。

Um,

嗯，

I believe you grew up Catholic, is that right?

我相信你是天主教徒长大的，对吗？

I did, yeah.

我做到了，是的。

Okay, so what about some of the other forms of grieving in other religions?

好吧，那么其他宗教中其他形式的悲伤又如何呢？

Yeah, so, uh, you know, it's funny.

是的，所以，呃，你知道，这很有趣。

Um, f- friends of mine who are Jewish will always say, "Yeah, we, we do death well." And I don't think it's true.

嗯，我的犹太朋友总是会说，“是的，我们，我们把死亡处理得很好。”我认为这不是真的。

As I look at it, the practice of shiva, to me, has

在我看来，湿婆的修行对我来说已经

all of the right pieces.

所有正确的部分。

And, and for me, so like, eulogizing happens in all faiths.

而且，对我来说，就像所有信仰中都会发生讴歌一样。

And what I like to say is there are convergences in these, right?

我想说的是，这些之间存在着共同点，对吗？

If you're, if you're a cultural anthropologist, you're seeing convergent evolution in terms of the cultural things that we can do to put our bodies in the right, in the right way.

如果你是，如果你是一名文化人类学家，你会看到文化方面的趋同进化，我们可以做这些事情，以正确的方式让我们的身体处于正确的位置。

Uh, or if you're a person of faith, you can say, "Well, you know, God cares about God's creations," and so we're all embodied in the same way, and so the same practices are gonna matter.

呃，或者如果你是一个有信仰的人，你可以说，“好吧，你知道，上帝关心上帝的创造物”，所以我们都以同样的方式体现，所以同样的做法很重要。

But some groups may have figured things out more than another.

但有些团体可能比其他团体更能解决问题。

I think, I mean, eulogizing is the big one.

我认为，我的意思是，颂扬是最重要的。

At Irish wakes, at some Irish wakes, they do cover mirrors.

在爱尔兰守灵仪式上，在某些爱尔兰守灵仪式上，它们确实会遮住镜子。

They have a completely different theological story for why they do it.

对于他们这样做的原因，他们有一个完全不同的神学故事。

Yeah.

是的。

Why do, what do they say?

为什么这样做，他们怎么说？

I think it's something about

我认为这是关于

keeping evil spirits away.

使邪灵远离。

I, I don't know.

我，我不知道。

But in, in Hindu ceremonies, they do it as well, in certain Hindu ceremonies.

但在印度教仪式中，他们也在某些印度教仪式中这样做。

Um, and so, I think it is, it is, uh, always about coming together.

嗯，所以，我认为，呃，总是要走到一起。

In, in, in Chinese, uh, grieving rituals, there is this focus on ancestor worship.

在中国的，呃，悲伤的仪式中，有一个对祖先崇拜的关注。

And so, when someone dies, yes, they go to a different domain, like heaven, but there, what they do is they keep the relationship going.

因此，当有人去世时，是的，他们会去另一个领域，比如天堂，但在那里，他们所做的就是维持这种关系。

So, there's something called, uh, they call it, uh, I don't know what the word in Chinese, but it's called ghost money.

所以，有一种东西叫，呃，他们管它叫，呃，我不知道中文是什么词，但是它叫鬼钱。

And so, what you can do, uh, if you wanna honor an ancestor and be in connection with them, is you can go to the store and it's this paper money that looks like real money, but it's not real money.

所以，呃，如果你想纪念祖先并与他们建立联系，你可以去商店，这些纸币看起来像真钱，但它不是真钱。

It's paper currency, and you, and you burn that.

这是纸币，而你，你把它烧掉。

And as the smoke rises, it goes to them where they are, and they can use it to buy stuff.

当烟雾升起时，它会到达他们所在的地方，他们可以用它来买东西。

You can buy cell phones that are kinda origami shaped as paper, burn that, and it goes to them.

你可以买一些折纸形状的手机，把它烧掉，然后手机就可以了。

And that might sound strange, but what it really does is a way of keeping that relationship there, of not totally losing that person, of having that positive memory, and

这可能听起来很奇怪，但它真正的作用是保持这种关系，不完全失去那个人，拥有积极的记忆，并且

still feeling like you have them in your life.

仍然感觉你的生活中有它们。

Because one of the biggest difficulties of humans, you know, we're social creatures.

因为人类最大的困难之一，你知道，我们是社会生物。

When we experience loneliness, when we lose someone, it is painful psychologically.

当我们经历孤独、失去某人时，心理上会感到痛苦。

It's also bad for us physiologically if it goes on.

如果这种情况持续下去，对我们的生理也会产生不利影响。

Well, anything that we can do to feel like that relationship is still maintained, as opposed to just loss, helps us avoid the stress and loneliness that comes with it.

好吧，我们可以做的任何事情，让我们感觉这种关系仍然维持着，而不是仅仅失去，都可以帮助我们避免随之而来的压力和孤独。

And so, that's another kind of grieving ritual I've seen.

所以，这是我见过的另一种悲伤仪式。

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。

AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens.

AG1 是一种维生素矿物质益生菌饮料，还包含益生元和适应原。

As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 for more than 13 years now.

你们很多人都知道，我服用 AG1 已经超过 13 年了。

I discovered it way back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've been drinking it every day since.

我早在 2012 年就发现了它，那时我还没有播客，从那时起我就每天都喝它。

For the past 13 years, AG1 has been the same original flavor.

13年来，AG1始终如一的原味。

They've updated the formulation, but the flavor has always remained the same.

他们更新了配方，但味道始终保持不变。

And now, for the first time, AG1 is available in three new flavors, berry, citrus, and tropical.

现在，AG1 首次推出三种新口味：浆果味、柑橘味和热带味。

All the flavors include the highest quality ingredients in exactly the right doses to together provide support for your gut microbiome, support for your immune health, and support for better energy and more.

所有口味均包含最优质的成分，且剂量恰到好处，共同为您的肠道微生物群提供支持，支持您的免疫健康，并支持更好的能量等等。

So now, you can find the flavor of AG1 that you like the most.

现在，您可以找到您最喜欢的 AG1 口味了。

While I've always loved the AG1 original flavor, especially when I mix it with water and a little bit of lemon or lime juice, that's how I've been doing it for basically 13 years, now I really enjoy the new berry flavor in particular.

虽然我一直很喜欢 AG1 原味，尤其是当我将它与水和一点柠檬或酸橙汁混合时，这就是我基本上 13 年的做法，现在我真的特别喜欢新的浆果味。

It tastes great and I don't have to add any lemon or lime juice.

味道很好，而且我不需要添加任何柠檬或酸橙汁。

I just mix it up with water.

我只是将它与水混合。

If you'd like to try AG1 and these new flavors, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.

如果您想尝试 AG1 和这些新口味，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 申请特别优惠。

Right now, AG1 is giving away an AG1 welcome kit that includes five free travel packs and a free bottle of vitamin D3 K2.

目前，AG1 正在赠送 AG1 欢迎套件，其中包括五个免费旅行包和一瓶免费维生素 D3 K2。

Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim the special welcome kit of five free travel packs and a free bottle of vitamin D3 K2.Today's episode is also brought to us by Eight Sleep.

再次，前往 Drinkag1.com/huberman 领取特别欢迎礼包，其中包括五个免费旅行包和一瓶免费维生素 D3 K2。今天的节目也是由八睡眠为我们带来的。

Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity.

August Sleep 生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。

One of the best ways to ensure a great night's sleep is to make sure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct.

确保一夜好眠的最佳方法之一是确保睡眠环境的温度正确。

And that's because in order to fall and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees.

这是因为为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，您的体温实际上必须下降约一到三度。

And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees.

为了醒来时感觉神清气爽、精力充沛，您的体温实际上必须升高约一到三度。

Eight Sleep automatically regulates the temperature of your bed throughout the night according to your unique needs.

八睡眠会根据您的独特需求自动调节整个晚上的床温。

Eight Sleep has just launched their latest model, the Pod 5, and the Pod 5 has several new important features.

八睡眠刚刚推出了他们的最新型号 Pod 5，Pod 5 有几个新的重要功能。

One of these new features is called Auto Pilot.

这些新功能之一称为自动驾驶仪。

Auto Pilot is an AI engine that learns your sleep patterns to adjust the temperature of your sleeping environment across different sleep stages.

Auto Pilot 是一款人工智能引擎，可以学习您的睡眠模式，从而调整不同睡眠阶段的睡眠环境温度。

It also elevates your head if you're snoring, and it makes other shifts to optimize your sleep.

如果您打鼾，它还会抬高您的头部，并进行其他转换以优化您的睡眠。

The base on the Pod 5 also has an integrated speaker that syncs to the Eight Sleep app and can play audio to support relaxation and recovery.

Pod 5 的底座还配有一个集成扬声器，可与八睡眠应用程序同步，并可以播放音频以支持放松和恢复。

The audio catalog includes several NSDR, non-sleep deep rest, scripts that I worked on with Eight Sleep to record.

音频目录包括几个 NSDR、非睡眠深度休息以及我与“八睡眠”一起录制的脚本。

If you're not familiar, NSDR involves listening to an audio script that walks you through a deep body relaxation combined with some very simple breathing exercises.

如果您不熟悉，NSDR 涉及聆听音频脚本，该音频脚本将引导您进行深度身体放松，并结合一些非常简单的呼吸练习。

It's an extremely powerful tool that anyone can benefit from the first time and every time.

这是一个极其强大的工具，任何人第一次和每次都可以从中受益。

If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, go to eightsleep.com/huberman to get up to $350 off the new Pod 5.

如果您想尝试八睡眠，请访问八睡眠.com/huberman，新款 Pod 5 最高可享受 350 美元优惠。

Eight Sleep ships to many countries worldwide, including Mexico and the UAE.

八号睡眠船运往世界各地的许多国家，包括墨西哥和阿联酋。

Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $350.

同样，访问八睡眠.com/huberman 最多可节省 350 美元。

We're talking about God and religion.

我们正在谈论上帝和宗教。

Um, how separable are those in terms of-

嗯，这些在以下方面有多大区别——

Yeah

是啊

...

...

the, uh, benefits of belief?

呃，信仰的好处？

So for instance, uh, has the experiment ever been done to find a group of people who pray regularly to God, but not in the context of any one specific religious practice?

举例来说，呃，有没有做过实验来寻找一群定期向上帝祈祷的人，但不进行任何特定的宗教活动？

Maybe they identify as Christian or Jewish or whatever, um, but they pray regularly.

也许他们认为自己是基督徒或犹太教徒或其他什么人，嗯，但他们定期祈祷。

They'll tell you, "Yeah, I pray every night," or, "I pray every morning," versus people who, um, really adopt prayer, as y- as you mentioned before, not as just a conversation-

他们会告诉你，“是的，我每天晚上都祈祷”，或者“我每天早上都祈祷”，而那些人，嗯，真正采用祈祷，就像你之前提到的那样，而不仅仅是一种对话-

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

with God and listening.

与神同在并聆听。

I always think of prayer, it can be two things.

我总是想到祈祷，它可以是两件事。

It can be a conversation with God.

这可以是与上帝的对话。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

It can also just be listening, which some people-

它也可以只是倾听，有些人-

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

might say, "Well, that's just meditation," but, I don't know, maybe you ping God with a question and you see what comes back.

也许你会说，“嗯，这只是冥想”，但是，我不知道，也许你向上帝提出一个问题，然后你就会看到他的回答。

Yeah.

是的。

No, there are-

不，还有——

This kind of thing

这种事

...

...

there are forms of prayer that are-

祈祷的形式有：

Yeah

是啊

...

...

just deep listening and sitting in silence.

只是深入聆听并静静地坐着。

Yeah.

是的。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Versus, uh, reading the Bible.

与，呃，读圣经。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Um, versus, uh, reading Torah or scripture of any kind.

嗯，与，呃，阅读托拉或任何类型的经文。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Um, what, what's known about that?

嗯，什么，对此有什么了解？

There have been studies, as I've said, that, that look at prayer, um, in general for formalized prayer.

正如我所说，有一些研究着眼于祈祷，嗯，一般来说是正式的祈祷。

I mean, there is a sense that...

我的意思是，有一种感觉...

So two questions.

那么两个问题。

Let, let me deal with the first one first, which is there a difference between God and, and religion?

我先说第一个问题，上帝和宗教有什么区别？

So,

所以，

because the US is a Christian country, I think most of us, when we think of religion, tend to think of it in terms of Christianity, where, where belief, where the creed is really important.

因为美国是一个基督教国家，我想我们大多数人，当我们想到宗教时，往往会从基督教的角度来思考它，在那里，信仰，信条非常重要。

In most of the world, religion is more about what you do than what you believe, right?

在世界上的大多数地方，宗教更多的是关于你所做的事情而不是你所信仰的，对吗？

It's what are the rituals?

就是什么仪式？

How do they infuse your daily life?

它们如何融入您的日常生活？

Um, and that's why, you know, as I said, there are, there are many Jews who are atheists.

嗯，这就是为什么，正如我所说，有很多犹太人是无神论者。

There are many Hindus I know who are atheists, yet they engage in the practices and they get the benefits from them.

我认识的许多印度教徒都是无神论者，但他们从事这些实践并从中受益。

So I think those two are, are separable.

所以我认为这两者是分开的。

There are also people who believe in God yet don't go to any services and don't practice at all.

还有一些人相信上帝，但不参加任何仪式，也不练习。

Say, "Oh yeah, I believe in God, but I don't engage in this." And when you look at the health benefits for those people, they're not there.

说：“哦，是的，我相信上帝，但我不参与这个。”当你看看这些人的健康益处时，你会发现它们并不存在。

You ha- you have to be actively engaged in the practices.

你哈——你必须积极地参与练习。

So I think those two can be separated.

所以我认为这两者可以分开。

Um, in terms of, um,

嗯，就，嗯，

prayer,

祈祷，

so remember I was telling you about the motor synchrony stuff.

所以请记住我正在告诉你关于电机同步的事情。

There is...

有...

And how it makes you feel more compassion toward other people.

以及它如何让你对其他人更有同情心。

There is work that shows that y- when you do motor synchrony on its own versus motor synchrony in prayer, and so these are studies where people were just listening to music and dancing together or moving together, versus where they were, uh, chanting together, um, chants that are meaningful to them and their faith and that set forth principles of the faith, what you find is an increase, a greater magnitude of the effect of the, uh, motor synchrony when those

有研究表明，当你单独进行运动同步与祈祷中的运动同步时，所以这些研究中，人们只是听音乐，一起跳舞或一起移动，而不是他们在一起，呃，一起吟诵，嗯，对他们和他们的信仰有意义的圣歌，并阐述了信仰的原则，你会发现，呃，运动同步的效果有所增加，当那些

meaningful parts of prayer are included.

包括祈祷的有意义的部分。

Why is that?

这是为什么？

As I said before, it's a mind/body practice.

正如我之前所说，这是一种身心练习。

So the moving in time, the motor synchrony, is putting your body in a state where it's more receptive to messages about community or coming together as opposed to feeling tense where your body is saying, "No, no, no, there's a threat here," but your mind is saying, "No, Dave, be good and reach out to these people." And so in that sense, combining the creedal elements, the belief elements with the practice leads to a greater effect than the practice on its own.

因此，及时移动，运动同步，使你的身体处于一种更容易接受有关社区或聚集在一起的信息的状态，而不是感到紧张，你的身体在说，“不，不，不，这里有威胁”，但你的思想却在说，“不，戴夫，要善良，向这些人伸出援手。”因此，从这个意义上说，将信条要素、信仰要素与实践相结合会比实践本身产生更大的效果。

You see the same thing with meditation, right?

你在冥想中也看到同样的事情，对吗？

Meditation, we're all sitting at home with our apps, right, by ourselves.

冥想，我们都坐在家里使用我们的应用程序，对吧，独自一人。

That's not the way meditation's supposed to be done.

这不是冥想应该进行的方式。

Traditionally it was done in a sangha, in a community.

传统上，它是在僧伽、社区中进行的。

And as you said before, why is that important?

正如您之前所说，为什么这很重要？

Because as we're breathing together, our respirations are in training upon one another, and it's creating that sense of synchrony to build community.

因为当我们一起呼吸时，我们的呼吸是相互训练的，它创造了一种建立社区的同步感。

So I think adding the

所以我想添加

message elements of what religions value to the mind/body practice puts you in a situation where you get a synergism.

宗教对身心练习的重视的信息元素会让你处于一种协同作用的境地。

And this is what worries me when we try to extract certain elements.

当我们尝试提取某些元素时，这就是我担心的地方。

So, psychedelics is one great example.

因此，迷幻药就是一个很好的例子。

Um,

嗯，

psychedelics traditionally, w- with ayahuasca or psilocybin, were taken in the context of a ceremony, where you had a shaman who through chanting or drum beats or whatever it might be, created a situation where the body was very relaxed and felt safe....

传统上，迷幻药，即死藤水或裸盖菇素，是在仪式的背景下服用的，在那里有一个萨满，通过吟诵或击鼓或其他任何可能的方式，创造一种身体非常放松并感到安全的情况......

and then at that point, you would take the psychedelic.

然后在那一点上，你就会服用迷幻剂。

And we had Michael Pollan on my show, and when he said, he- he told me, he said, "David, the one thing that's really important when you take psilocybin is you have to feel supremely safe.

我们的节目中有迈克尔·波伦（Michael Pollan），当他说，他-他告诉我时，他说，“大卫，当你服用裸盖菇素时，真正重要的一件事是你必须感到非常安全。

Because when that moment of self-dissolution comes or ego death comes, it can be beautiful or it can be terrifying.

因为当自我消解或自我死亡的那一刻到来时，它可能是美丽的，也可能是可怕的。

And if you don't feel safe, it can go the wrong way." And, you know, the data show about 25% of trips are bad.

如果你感觉不安全，事情可能会走向错误的方向。”而且，您知道，数据显示大约 25% 的旅行是糟糕的。

About 8% are so bad that they necessitate some type of mental health intervention.

大约 8% 的人情况非常糟糕，以至于需要某种类型的心理健康干预。

And so, you have the shaman with you.

所以，萨满就在你身边。

You have the experience of ego death, you see whatever you're going to see, and that person helps you reintegrate that and make sense of it.

你经历了自我死亡，你看到了你将要看到的一切，而那个人会帮助你重新整合它并理解它。

So, you know, at- at Hopkins, where they're doing great work, they don't have a religious shaman, but they have a guide, right?

所以，你知道，在霍普金斯大学，他们做得很好，他们没有宗教萨满，但他们有向导，对吗？

The guide is with you.

指南就在你身边。

You form a relationship with this person during your trip.

您在旅行期间与此人建立了关系。

The person is there with you.

这个人就在你身边。

They'll put their hand on your hand.

他们会把手放在你的手上。

They'll...

他们会...

They're there to help make sense and keep you feeling safe.

他们的作用是帮助您理解并让您感到安全。

They're doing the same role as a shaman.

他们扮演着萨满祭司的角色。

But if you're in Brooklyn, you know, dropping psilocybin with your local Brooklyn hipsters without the container around to keep you safe, there's a good chance you may have a bad outcome.

但如果你在布鲁克林，你知道，与当地的布鲁克林潮人一起扔裸盖菇素，而周围没有容器来保证你的安全，那么你很可能会得到不好的结果。

And so for me, you know, long an- long answer to your question about prayer, I think

所以对我来说，你知道，对你关于祈祷的问题的答案很长很长，我想

we have these containers of the rituals and the ideals of the religions that work together synergistically.

我们拥有这些协同作用的宗教仪式和理想的容器。

And when you extract those, the question is, will they work as well, or if not, is there actually even, in some cases, a danger?

当你提取这些内容时，问题是，它们是否也能发挥作用，或者如果不能，在某些情况下实际上是否存在危险？

A couple of things.

有几件事。

First of all, um, yes, psilocybin can be terrifying.

首先，嗯，是的，裸盖菇素可能很可怕。

I can attest to that, uh, as can LSD.

我可以证明这一点，呃，LSD 也可以。

Um...

嗯...

Did you have a bad trip or...

你有没有经历过糟糕的旅行或者...

Well, I- I- I don't recommend this, but when I was young, uh, far too young, I experimented with psilocybin and LSD, had some good experiences and then a couple of really bad experiences that led me to just basically write them off-

嗯，我-我-我不推荐这个，但是当我年轻的时候，呃，太年轻了，我尝试过裸盖菇素和LSD，有一些很好的经历，然后有一些非常糟糕的经历，导致我基本上把它们注销了-

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

for a long period of time.

在很长一段时间内。

Then later, um, revisited that in the proper context with

然后后来，嗯，在适当的背景下重新审视了这一点

therapeutic support there.

那里有治疗支持。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Completely different experience.

完全不同的体验。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

But still, p- psilocybin, terrifying every single time.

但尽管如此，p-裸盖菇素每次都令人恐惧。

But the integration piece is really critical.

但整合部分确实至关重要。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

It's critical.

这很关键。

Critical, critical.

批判，批判。

Uh, we could have a- a long conversation about psychedelics, but, um, I'll just mention now 'cause I'll come back to this i- in a little bit.

呃，我们可以就迷幻药进行一次长谈，但是，嗯，我现在就提一下，因为我稍后会回到这个问题。

Uh, a friend of mine who's, um, quite religious, he's Christian, quite religious, and very versed in the Bible-

呃，我的一个朋友，嗯，非常虔诚，他是基督徒，非常虔诚，并且非常精通圣经-

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

studies the Bible, um, is very skeptical of psychedelics or even, um, concerned about people's use of psychedelics.

研究圣经，嗯，对迷幻药非常怀疑，甚至，嗯，担心人们使用迷幻药。

Uh, not because they're quote unquote "anti-Christian," but because there's this idea, uh, that during psychedelic journeys, that evil forces actually can see into your unconscious mind.

呃，不是因为他们引用了“反基督教”，而是因为有这样的想法，呃，在迷幻之旅中，邪恶势力实际上可以洞察你的潜意识。

Hmm.

唔。

Now, that might seem like a wild and crazy idea.

现在看来，这似乎是一个疯狂的想法。

We could also talk about psychedelics as like which serotonin receptors they happen to be-

我们还可以谈论迷幻药，比如它们恰好是哪种血清素受体——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

um, activating.

嗯，激活。

So, we could like, we could move around the- the- the topic from different perspectives.

因此，我们可以从不同的角度围绕主题进行讨论。

But it is interesting in the sense that when people talk about psychedelic journeys, you just did, I am, it always seems to be this divergent road.

但有趣的是，当人们谈论迷幻之旅时，你只是这样做，我是，它似乎总是这条不同的道路。

You can either have a very meaningful and positive experience, or it can include elements that are terrifying, that if not integrated properly, can be, uh, potentially destructive.

你要么可以获得非常有意义和积极的体验，要么它可能包含可怕的元素，如果没有正确整合，可能会，呃，潜在的破坏性。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

So, the idea that maybe certain, um, components of religion, uh, would see it as hazardous-

所以，也许宗教的某些组成部分，呃，会认为它是危险的——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

assign that to evil spirits, devil, et cetera, isn't- isn't outside what we've observed scientifically or clinically either, so.

将其归咎于邪灵、魔鬼等，也不超出我们在科学或临床上观察到的范围，所以。

No, that's true.

不，确实如此。

And I, and I think you may know this better than me being a neuroscientist.

我，我想你可能比我作为一名神经科学家更了解这一点。

I think some of the most recent work on psychedelics suggests, to use a poor metaphor, what it's basically doing is, is loosening the mind, right?

我认为最近一些关于迷幻药的研究表明，用一个糟糕的比喻来说，它基本上所做的就是放松头脑，对吗？

It- it- it reopens up periods of- of critical learning.

它-它-它重新开启了批判性学习的时期。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

And so things that have become kind of rigid and reified in your brain, suddenly there's flexibility again.

因此，那些在你的大脑中变得僵化和具体化的事物，突然又变得灵活了。

Um, and so the messages that you're getting at that time can have much more influence and situational influences, um, than they would at any other time.

嗯，所以你当时收到的消息可能会比任何其他时间产生更大的影响和情境影响。

And if you don't have that safe container for the religion, yeah, it can take you in really problematic ways.

如果你没有那个安全的宗教容器，是的，它可能会让你陷入真正的问题。

But what I find interesting about it, you know, is- is people often talk about that- that moment of, when it's good, of- of ego death as kind of being this transcendent experience, where you feel this sense of connection to everything and- and- and great love.

但我觉得有趣的是，你知道，人们经常谈论自我死亡的那一刻，当它是好的时候，自我死亡是一种超然的体验，在那里你感受到与一切和伟大的爱的联系感。

And if you look at mystical traditions where they're all designed to kind of get you to this point, there are what are traditionally called right-handed roots and left-handed roots.

如果你看看神秘的传统，它们都是为了让你达到这一点而设计的，传统上有所谓的右手根源和左手根源。

Right-handed roots are the ones that are kind of deeply embedded in religions that we normally don't see as much because they're for people who are kind of living a- a contemplative lifestyle.

右手根源是那些深深植根于宗教中的根源，我们通常看不到那么多，因为它们是为那些过着沉思生活方式的人而存在的。

So, Christian traditions have them, Buddhist tradition more- we're more familiar with, et cetera.

所以，基督教传统有它们，佛教传统更多——我们更熟悉，等等。

And so you can, by virtue of engaging in long practices of meditation, building your skill over many years, get your mind to that point where you can have this sense of ego death.

因此，你可以通过长期的冥想练习，多年来培养你的技能，让你的思想达到这样的程度，你可以有这种自我死亡的感觉。

Left-handed traditions, they're the quick and easy way, right?

左撇子传统，它们是快速而简单的方法，对吗？

So, rather than learn the practice, you can take the drug, uh, and- and get there as well.

所以，你不用学习练习，而是可以服用药物，呃，并且 - 也可以到达那里。

And so it's...

所以这是...

What's interesting to me is that they're both roots and religions themselves, even outside of the chemicals, have a way for those who want to follow it to gain this transcendent experience.

对我来说有趣的是，它们都是根源和宗教本身，即使在化学物质之外，也有办法让那些想要追随它的人获得这种超然的体验。

But they're always a little more worried about the left-hand roots for the reasons you're saying, because they don't have the practice and the guidance long term, and they can go badly for people and lead you to problematics.

但出于你所说的原因，他们总是更担心左手根源，因为他们没有长期的实践和指导，他们可能对人们不利并导致你遇到问题。

But that I can see people interpreting as-

但我可以看到人们将其解释为——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

demonic influences.

恶魔的影响。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Yeah, I think it's also worth knowing that sometimes people can have a very good experience on psychedelics-

是的，我认为也值得知道的是，有时人们可以在迷幻药上获得非常好的体验——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

but without adequate integration or-

但没有充分的整合或-

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

if the frequency is too high, um, sometimes issues can surface, uh, weeks or months later.

如果频率太高，嗯，有时问题可能会在几周或几个月后浮出水面。

It's not always just that they-

并不总是因为他们——

Right.

对。

That's right

没错

...

...

have a bad experience.

有一个糟糕的经历。

And I'm generally optimistic about psychedelics as a clinical tool.

我总体上对迷幻药作为临床工具持乐观态度。

Yeah.

是的。

I'm hoping they will get FDA approval soon.

我希望他们能尽快获得 FDA 批准。

I'm hoping that they're...The FDA approval will require proper therapeutic support-

我希望他们...FDA 的批准将需要适当的治疗支持-

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

in order for them to be used clinically.

以便它们能够应用于临床。

But, um, nonetheless, uh, psychedelics are

但是，嗯，尽管如此，呃，致幻剂是

adjacent to religion and belief in God, I think, because, as you pointed out, they tend to recede the waterline on the conscious mind-

我认为，与宗教和对上帝的信仰相邻，因为正如你所指出的，它们往往会后退意识思维的水线——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

and bring us into these unconscious states that I think a lot of people do achieve through prayer and through meditation.

并将我们带入这些无意识的状态，我认为很多人确实通过祈祷和冥想达到了这种状态。

But as you pointed out, it takes much longer.

但正如您所指出的，这需要更长的时间。

The reason I brought up this notion of evil spirits-

我提出邪灵这个概念的原因是——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

is that many religions have a component of good and evil.

是许多宗教都有善与恶的成分。

And we tend to assume that those forces are presented as things outside of us.

我们倾向于假设这些力量是作为我们之外的事物呈现的。

You know, you have a God and a devil, right?

你知道，你有上帝和魔鬼，对吗？

And they're, they're battling one another.

他们正在互相争斗。

I have to assume that some of that is borne out of the idea that we also understand that the human brain has circuits that, uh, hold the potential for good and the potential for evil.

我必须假设其中一些是基于这样的想法，即我们也了解人类大脑的回路，呃，拥有善良的潜力和邪恶的潜力。

And those exist in all of us.

这些都存在于我们所有人身上。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

In some people, there's enough top-down inhibition or enough, uh, that comes from good, you know, good parenting and good childhood experiences and so on, um,

在某些人身上，有足够的自上而下的抑制，或者足够的，呃，来自良好的，你知道的，良好的养育和良好的童年经历等等，嗯，

or just default wiring that makes, uh, people behaving terribly, very unlikely.

或者只是默认的接线，导致人们表现得很糟糕，不太可能。

But lots of experiments done in the wake of World War II, in your field, your field of psychology, were focused on, um, demonstrating really, that under the right conditions, most anybody can engage in evil behavior-

但是第二次世界大战之后，在你们的领域，你们的心理学领域，所做的很多实验都集中在，嗯，确实证明，在适当的条件下，大多数人都可以从事邪恶的行为——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

or at least sadistic behavior.

或者至少是施虐行为。

Uh, we don't talk about those experiments so much lately because, um, they're not politically correct.

呃，我们最近不太谈论这些实验，因为，嗯，它们在政治上不正确。

But the, was it the Milgram experiments?

但是，这是米尔格拉姆实验吗？

Is, these ones that are...

是，这些是...

Which were the experiments, I think they were done at Yale, where people-

我认为这些实验是在耶鲁大学完成的，那里的人们——

The Milgram experiments, yeah.

米尔格拉姆实验，是的。

Where they, where...

他们在哪里，在哪里……

The Milgram experience, where people literally believed, um, that they were causing intense pain in others-

米尔格拉姆的经历，人们确实相信，嗯，他们给别人带来了剧烈的痛苦——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

and they would get people to ratchet up to, um, the point where they were inducing, um, extreme pain on others.

他们会让人们逐渐达到，嗯，他们给别人带来极度痛苦的地步。

Um, to the point where people later were shocked, no pun intended- ...

嗯，到了后来人们都震惊的地步，没有双关语的意思——……

uh, that they themselves had been, had-

呃，他们自己曾经、曾经——

Yeah

是啊

...

...

had done that.

已经这样做了。

Had, that they had been, um, the person controlling the amount and intensity of that much pain-

如果，他们是，嗯，控制那么多痛苦的数量和强度的人——

Yeah

是啊

...

...

over someone else, for no other reason except that they were told to.

超越别人，没有其他原因，只是他们被告知这样做。

Um, now I realize those experiments are a little bit controversial.

嗯，现在我意识到这些实验有点争议。

Yeah.

是的。

Um, but I think there have been enough demonstrations that humans hold the potential to do bad things to other humans-

嗯，但我认为已经有足够多的证据表明人类有可能对其他人做坏事——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

under the right conditions, that we can accept that the human brain at least has the wiring to go there.

在适当的条件下，我们可以接受人类大脑至少有通往那里的线路。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

What are the data on this notion of

关于这个概念的数据有哪些

good and evil?

善与恶？

Why do religions present good and evil outside of us?

为什么宗教将善与恶呈现在我们之外？

Is there any evidence that a bias toward accepting that there's good and evil in us is helpful?

有没有证据表明，偏向于接受我们身上有善有恶的观念是有帮助的？

Um, because I can think of, you know, when I think about Buddhism, for instance, I think about love and kindness meditation.

嗯，因为我可以想到，例如，当我想到佛教时，我想到爱和仁慈冥想。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

I think about, um, mindfulness.

我想到，嗯，正念。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

I think about eliminating suffering.

我考虑消除痛苦。

When I think about the New Testament, I think about a loving God.

当我想到新约时，我想到一位慈爱的神。

I-

我-

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

We hear about Jesus as a, as being of love and-

我们听说耶稣是一位充满爱的存在，并且——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

and forgiveness and, and redemption.

以及宽恕和救赎。

And then y- of course, we have the Old Testament, which is a lot less forgiving.

然后，当然，我们有旧约，它的宽容程度要低得多。

A lot less forgiving.

宽容度少了很多。

So, what are your reflections on good and evil-

那么，你对善与恶有何看法——

Yeah

是啊

...

...

and religion and how they can serve us, um, in terms of our beliefs?

和宗教以及它们如何为我们服务，嗯，就我们的信仰而言？

Or, I don't know the data, um, for people that want to reject that, is there an advantage-

或者，我不知道数据，嗯，对于那些想要拒绝的人来说，有没有优势-

Yeah

是啊

...

...

to rejecting that?

拒绝那个？

There's a lot there.

那里有很多东西。

So first, the question of, of why do I think religions think about it as outside of us?

首先，问题是，为什么我认为宗教认为它是在我们之外的？

So one of the things I teach is, is moral psychology.

所以我教的内容之一是道德心理学。

Why do people do good or bad?

人为什么要做好事或做坏事？

And what the r- data has shown us over the past few decades is that people's moral behavior is a lot more variable than anyone would ever predict.

过去几十年的研究数据向我们表明，人们的道德行为比任何人预测的都要多变。

Um, and because of that, because but most people like to think of ourselves as good people, when we do something wrong that's objectifiably wrong, we feel like something came over us, right?

嗯，正因为如此，因为大多数人都喜欢认为自己是好人，当我们做了一些客观上错误的事情时，我们会感觉有什么事情发生在我们身上，对吧？

And so it's easy to say there is an evil force outside that was guiding me.

所以很容易说外面有一股邪恶的力量在引导我。

What we're learning now is that a lot of moral processing within the brain happens kind of below your conscious awareness, and I'll give you an example of that in a minute.

我们现在了解到的是，大脑内的许多道德处理都发生在你的意识之下，我很快就会给你举一个例子。

So it feels like it's coming over us, so therefore, maybe it's some other force.

所以感觉就像它正在向我们袭来，因此，也许是其他力量。

But the point you raise is a good one, right?

但你提出的观点很好，对吧？

We did not evolve to be saints.

我们并没有进化成圣人。

We did not evolve to be sinners.

我们并没有进化成罪人。

We evolved to be adaptive, right?

我们进化得具有适应性，对吧？

Uh, to basically be able to reproduce and, and pass on our genetic material.

呃，基本上能够繁殖并传递我们的遗传物质。

Because we're a social species, we need to cooperate with each other, and therefore, most of the time, when people can see what we're doing, we're gonna try and be good because we don't want a reputation for being a bad person.

因为我们是一个社会物种，我们需要彼此合作，因此，大多数时候，当人们可以看到我们在做什么时，我们会尽力做好人，因为我们不想被视为坏人。

No one's gonna cooperate with us.

没有人会与我们合作。

But if you're in a situation where you can have your cake and eat it too, that's adaptive.

但如果你处于鱼与熊掌兼得的境地，那就是适应性的。

You're gonna take it.

你会接受它。

And so as an example, we do studies on cheating in my lab.

举个例子，我们在我的实验室里进行了关于作弊的研究。

And we, uh, have this situation where people come to the lab and we say, "Okay, look.

我们，呃，有这样的情况，人们来到实验室，我们说，“好吧，看看。

There's two tasks that need to be done.

有两项任务需要完成。

One is short and fun, takes about 10 minutes.

其中一期简短而有趣，大约需要 10 分钟。

One is long and onerous, takes about 45.

一篇又长又繁重，大约需要 45 篇。

You, uh, are in the role of, of, of decider.

你，呃，扮演着决策者的角色。

You can pick which one of these you, you want to do.

您可以选择您想做的其中一项。

Most people think the fairest way to do it is to flip a coin, because whichever one you don't do, the person behind you is gonna get stuck doing." And everybody says, "Yeah, that makes sense." And so we give them a little, um, a little device that's a computerized coin flipper, so they can hit the button and it comes up heads or tails.

大多数人认为最公平的方法是掷硬币，因为无论你不做哪一个，你背后的人都会被困住。”每个人都说：“是的，这是有道理的。”所以我们给他们一个小设备，一个电脑化的硬币翻转器，这样他们就可以按下按钮，结果是正面或反面。

The reason we do that is so we can control which side comes up.

我们这样做的原因是我们可以控制哪一方出现。

Heads, you get the fun task.

领导们，你接到了这个有趣的任务。

Tails, you get the bad task.

尾巴，你接到了这个糟糕的任务。

100% of people, when you ask them and, and y- and you say, "Um,

100% 的人，当你问他们，然后你说，“嗯，

if you lied about this, 'cause you're gonna be in the room by your- by yourself, if you say you got heads when you didn't, is that morally wrong?" Only time in my life I get unanimous data.

如果你在这件事上撒了谎，因为你要独自待在房间里，如果你说你有头，但实际上没有，这在道德上是错误的吗？”我一生中只有一次获得一致的数据。

100% of people say, "Yeah, that's morally wrong."

100% 的人都会说：“是的，这在道德上是错误的。”

That's encouraging-

这令人鼓舞——

Yeah.

是的。

...

...

that they say that.

他们这么说。

Well, yeah, wait.

嗯，是的，等等。

And so then we put them in the room and we say, you know, they, they, uh, know they can decide how they want.

然后我们把他们放在房间里，我们说，你知道，他们，他们，呃，知道他们可以决定他们想要的方式。

They know most people say, "You should use, use the coin." They say, "You should use the coin."...

他们知道大多数人都会说：“你应该使用，使用硬币。”他们说：“你应该使用硬币。”......

guess what percentage of them?

猜猜其中有多少百分比？

So, we, we know they lie because they come out and they basically say, "Oh, I got the easy task," and we let them go do that.

所以，我们知道他们撒谎，因为他们出来后基本上会说，“哦，我完成了一项简单的任务”，然后我们就让他们去做。

We know the coin came up tails because we rigged it.

我们知道硬币反面朝上是因为我们操纵了它。

What percent of people do you think lie to us?

您认为有多少人对我们撒谎？

I don't know.

我不知道。

Depending on the study, it's usually like 85%.

根据研究，通常为 85%。

85%?

85%？

Yeah, yeah.

是啊是啊。

Now, there are situations where we tell them, "You can't decide.

现在，在某些情况下我们会告诉他们，“你无法决定。

You must do what the coin tells you." And there, still about a third of people cheat.

你必须按照硬币告诉你的去做。”在那里，仍有大约三分之一的人作弊。

Oh my goodness.

哦，我的天啊。

Right?

正确的？

Seriously?

严重地？

Yeah.

是的。

And so...

所以...

And we've done it with money.

我们已经用钱做到了。

You can get more money on the coin flip higher or lower.

当硬币抛得更高或更低时，你可以获得更多的钱。

But what's interesting is when you ask people later why did they cheat, they will create a story 'cause no one likes to think of themselves as bad.

但有趣的是，当你稍后问人们为什么要作弊时，他们会编造一个故事，因为没有人喜欢认为自己不好。

So, they'll say things like, "Well, yeah, normally I wouldn't do that.

所以，他们会说，“嗯，是的，通常我不会这样做。

But, you know, I had an appointment later, and I just wanted to make sure I wasn't late and I thought that that longer task might be a problem." Or my favorite one was...

但是，你知道，我后来有个约会，我只是想确保自己没有迟到，而且我认为这项较长的任务可能会是一个问题。”或者我最喜欢的一个是...

Because the bad task was like logic problems they had to solve, one person said, "Well, you know, the guy who was sitting next to me in the waiting room and I knew would get the one that I didn't choose, he was an engineer.

因为糟糕的任务就像他们必须解决的逻辑问题，一个人说，“嗯，你知道，在候诊室坐在我旁边的那个人，我知道他会得到我没有选择的那个，他是一名工程师。

So, I thought he would like the logic problems that took a lot longer to do." Right?

所以，我认为他会喜欢需要更长时间才能完成的逻辑问题。”正确的？

And so, people are creating these stories.

因此，人们正在创造这些故事。

And so, what...

那么，什么...

The, the point of this is that, um, if it was public, no one would ever cheat.

这个，重点是，嗯，如果是公开的，就没有人会作弊。

Like I...

就像我...

You know, when I go on TV people will say, "Can we do one of your cheating experiments?" And I'm like, "No. No one's gonna cheat when they're like, you know, have the TV cameras on them," right?

你知道，当我上电视时，人们会说，“我们可以做一个你的作弊实验吗？”我想，“不。当他们像，你知道，有电视摄像机在他们身上时，没有人会作弊，”对吧？

But when you can get away with it, your brain changes the computations of what's valuable.

但当你能够逃脱惩罚时，你的大脑就会改变对有价值的东西的计算。

You will cheat because it's adaptive to not exert extra energy you don't have to if there's no reputational cost.

你会作弊，因为如果没有声誉成本，你就不会付出不必要的额外精力。

And so, people do.

人们也是如此。

Where does religion fit in this?

宗教在哪里适合这个？

Well, there's wonderful work.

嗯，有很棒的工作。

This is by, uh, Dimitris Zygalotis, who's a professor at UConn, um, where he has people in different cultures do a similar thing, and he has them play a game where they can cheat somebody else out of money.

这是由，呃，Dimitris Zygalotis 写的，他是康涅狄格大学的一名教授，嗯，他让不同文化背景的人做类似的事情，他让他们玩一个可以骗别人钱的游戏。

And they either do it in a restaurant kitchen or in a temple.

他们要么在餐馆的厨房里，要么在寺庙里做。

The rate of cheating drops dramatically if you're doing it in the temple.

如果你在寺庙里作弊，作弊率就会大大下降。

Why?

为什么？

Because suddenly you're reminded, "Oh my goodness, God cares about this, and I...

因为你突然被提醒，“天哪，上帝关心这个，而我......

There's gonna be a price for me to pay if I do this." And so, that's, that's top-down.

如果我这样做，我就会付出代价。”所以，这就是自上而下的。

But it also works from the bottom-up.

但它也是自下而上运作的。

Right?

正确的？

We know that the brain's computations of what we value is, is often done below our conscious awareness.

我们知道，大脑对我们所重视的事物的计算通常是在我们的意识之下完成的。

It is influenced by lots of things, including feeling states.

它受到很多因素的影响，包括感觉状态。

So, one thing we study in my lab is gratitude.

所以，我们在实验室研究的一件事就是感恩。

Bring people into the lab.

把人带进实验室。

We have all different ways of making them feel grateful, but the easiest way is, "Count your blessings.

我们有各种不同的方法让他们感到感激，但最简单的方法是“数数你的祝福。

Take five minutes and count your blessings." We then give them tasks where they can cheat in this way.

花五分钟时间来数一数你的祝福。”然后我们给他们任务，让他们可以通过这种方式作弊。

Those who have counted their blessings, cheating is almost non-existent.

那些算过自己祝福的人，作弊几乎是不存在的。

85% to zero?

85% 到零？

Well, in that study, they were told they had to do what the, what the coin said, so...

嗯，在那项研究中，他们被告知必须按照硬币所说的去做，所以......

What the coin flipper said.

抛硬币的人说的话。

So, the average cheating rate was like 25 or 30%.

所以，平均作弊率约为 25% 或 30%。

It went down to 2%.

下降至 2%。

Wow.

哇。

Right?

正确的？

Still a, a marked change.

仍然是一个明显的变化。

Still a marked change.

还是有明显的变化。

Uh, and I'm sure in the other one it would drop.

呃，我确信在另一处它会下降。

If we did it the other way, it would drop dramatically too.

如果我们采取其他方式，它也会急剧下降。

We find that, uh, when we give people the opportunity to help someone else who is asking for help, a stranger they don't know, if they feel grateful, they're much more likely to do it.

我们发现，呃，当我们给人们机会去帮助那些寻求帮助的人、一个他们不认识的陌生人时，如果他们感到感激，他们就更有可能这样做。

And we can do it in such a way that we can titrate the level of gratitude they're feeling to the amount of help they're giving.

我们可以通过这样一种方式来衡量他们对他们所提供的帮助的感激程度。

And so, what's happening here is

所以，这里发生的是

religions cultivate, they curate our emotional lives.

宗教培育我们的情感生活。

What do people do when they pray?

人们祈祷时会做什么？

A lot of prayer...

很多祈祷...

The most common prayer is a prayer of gratitude.

最常见的祈祷是感恩的祈祷。

If you are experiencing gratitude more frequently in your day, it puts you in a position where you are being nudged from the bottom-up to be more willing to be honest, patient, generous, and helpful to other people.

如果你在一天中更频繁地感受到感激之情，它会让你处于一种自下而上的推动状态，让你更愿意诚实、耐心、慷慨和乐于助人。

And so, what's going on?

那么，到底发生了什么事？

The gratitude that you're feeling is putting your body in a state where you...

你所感受到的感激之情会让你的身体处于一种......

The brain wants to be more pro-social.

大脑想要变得更加亲社会。

At the same time you're praying, you're getting the message, "Hey, you should be more pro-social." And so again, it's a synergistic effect to push us in that way.

在你祈祷的同时，你会收到这样的信息：“嘿，你应该更加亲社会。”再说一遍，这是一种协同效应，推动我们朝着这个方向发展。

When it comes to discussions around religion and religious practices, you can see a lot of, uh, commonalities among religious practices.

当谈到有关宗教和宗教活动的讨论时，你可以看到宗教活动之间有很多，呃，共性。

We need to kind of take a step back-

我们需要退一步——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

um, whether or not it's around gratitude or it's around, uh, grieving, uh, celebrating birth of children-

嗯，无论是感恩还是围绕，呃，悲伤，呃，庆祝孩子的诞生——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

et cetera.

等等。

Um, there's a lot of discussion nowadays how, at least in the United States but I think elsewhere in the world as well, people are more isolated.

嗯，现在有很多讨论，至少在美国，但我认为在世界其他地方，人们更加孤立。

Yeah.

是的。

Um, people are feeling, um, probably p- more pulled into their phones, really.

嗯，人们感觉，嗯，可能更多地沉迷于他们的手机，真的。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Uh, there's an interesting, uh, picture published recently, or a series of pictures, I forget exactly where, but we'll provide a link to it, where, um, someone took pictures of...

呃，最近发布了一张有趣的，呃，图片，或者一系列图片，我忘了具体在哪里，但我们会提供一个链接，在那里，嗯，有人拍了照片......

Real pictures of humans in a natural environment-

人类在自然环境中的真实写照——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

in cities, et cetera, but deleted the phone...

在城市等等，但删除了手机......

O- the phones anytime they were holding their phones.

O- 任何时候他们拿着手机的时候都是手机。

And everyone's just staring- ...

每个人都只是盯着——...

at their palms at the beach with their kids.

和孩子们在海滩上的棕榈树上。

Uh-huh.

嗯嗯。

Their kids like...

他们的孩子喜欢...

Kids on the subway.

孩子们在地铁上。

I don't know if there was a subway one, but it's just every- we're all staring at our palms-

我不知道是否有地铁，但它就是每一个——我们都盯着我们的手掌——

Yeah

是啊

...

...

all the time.

一直。

It's a very bizarre point in human history.

这是人类历史上一个非常奇怪的时刻。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

So, the question I have is, when people pray, uh, when people have a belief in God, uh, presumably they feel less alone.

所以，我的问题是，当人们祈祷时，呃，当人们信仰上帝时，呃，大概他们会感到不那么孤独。

Yeah.

是的。

It's...

这是...

It certainly makes me feel less alone, uh, to pray.

呃，祈祷确实让我感觉不那么孤单。

In fact, um, at some point, I found anyway, that if you pray regularly, that you never feel lonely.

事实上，嗯，在某些时候，无论如何，我发现，如果你经常祈祷，你就永远不会感到孤独。

You never feel alone because you realize that people come, people go.

你永远不会感到孤独，因为你意识到人们来了，人们走了。

Ideally, they...

理想情况下，他们...

Uh, you don't lose people close to you quickly or too soon, but everyone dies eventually.

呃，你不会很快或太快地失去亲近的人，但每个人最终都会死去。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

But your relationship with God, if you have one, is a permanent thing.

但你与神的关系，如果你有的话，是永久的。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

From the...

从...

It- it's just the...

这——这只是……

And the more you lean into that c- component and have faith in that, the less lonely you feel, ever.

你越倾向于 c 成分并对此充满信心，你就越不会感到孤独。

Yeah.

是的。

It's kind of remarkable.

这有点了不起。

And, uh, you know, in this age of like AI and digital twins and smartphones, where everyone's got at least one smartphone, um, I, I think this is not a, a, a trivial aspect to all of it.

而且，呃，你知道，在这个人工智能、数字双胞胎和智能手机的时代，每个人都至少拥有一部智能手机，嗯，我，我认为这对所有这一切来说都不是一个微不足道的方面。

I mean, the, the notion of not being alone is so fundamental to feeling safe as a human.

我的意思是，不孤独的观念对于作为一个人感到安全至关重要。

Yeah.

是的。

So, um, I don't know what the research on loneliness and religion says, um, but oftentimes, we hear about these things in the context of community.

所以，嗯，我不知道关于孤独和宗教的研究怎么说，嗯，但我们经常在社区背景下听到这些事情。

What about-

怎么样——

Yeah

是啊

...

...

the, um, the mental health benefits of feeling like you're not alone because you really believe you're not alone.

嗯，感觉自己并不孤单对心理健康有好处，因为你真的相信自己并不孤单。

Yeah.

是的。

I mean, so the, the data show that people who engage with religion report much less loneliness.

我的意思是，数据显示，从事宗教活动的人的孤独感要少得多。

And it's, it's probably both, right?

很可能两者兼而有之，对吧？

It is, usually they're engaged in a religious community that causes deeper social bonds.

事实上，通常他们参与的宗教团体会产生更深的社会联系。

But I think you're right.

但我认为你是对的。

It, it does...

它、它确实...

Believing you have a relationship with God

相信你与神有关系

allows you to feel like someone is always there.

让你感觉有人一直在那儿。

And, you know, there, there's an important difference, right?

而且，你知道，有一个重要的区别，对吗？

Being alone is not the same as being lonely, right?

孤独并不等于孤独，对吗？

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

You can be surrounded by a lot of people but not feel a connection to them.

您可能被很多人包围，但感觉不到与他们的联系。

Um,

嗯，

with God, from what we can tell, there is this sense of having

与上帝在一起，据我们所知，有一种拥有的感觉

a relationship with someone who has your back, right?

与支持你的人建立关系，对吗？

A friend that in, in essence you can count on.

本质上是一个你可以信赖的朋友。

Um, it's interesting, in a lot of evangelical traditions, there's a lot of emphasis placed on having conversations with God.

嗯，有趣的是，在很多福音派传统中，都非常强调与上帝对话。

So, I'm not sure how you were raised, but for me being Catholic, it was more like you would, you would pray and you know God was there.

所以，我不确定你是如何长大的，但对我来说，作为天主教徒，这更像是你会祈祷，你知道上帝在那里。

But a lot of these evangelical traditions, there are trainings that people go to to be able to listen for God.

但在许多福音派传统中，人们参加培训是为了能够倾听上帝的声音。

And I'm not as familiar with the steps of those, but there really is this sense to kind of train yourself to be able to hear God or sense God by you.

我不太熟悉这些步骤，但确实有这种感觉，可以训练自己能够听到上帝或通过你感受到上帝。

And it's not for me to say whether this is true or not.

我不该说这是否属实。

I don't know.

我不知道。

Remember, I'm a scientist, and so when I talk about these things, I'm not trying to reduce them in any way.

请记住，我是一名科学家，所以当我谈论这些事情时，我并不是试图以任何方式减少它们。

I'm saying, "Look, we're embodied creatures.

我说：“看，我们是具身的生物。

We have a brain.

我们有大脑。

If I see God or hear God, my occipital cortex is gonna light up." Doesn't mean it's er- it's reducible to the neurons in there.

如果我看到上帝或听到上帝，我的枕叶皮质就会发光。”并不意味着它是错误的——它可以简化为那里的神经元。

It just means that's what it is.

这只是意味着事情就是这样。

And so, it's not for me to say whether they're actually hearing God or not.

所以，我不该说他们是否真的听到了上帝的声音。

But this emphasis on forming a relationship with God that is kind of two ways is a big part of the faith.

但这种强调与上帝建立两种方式的关系是信仰的重要组成部分。

And those people report feeling a lot less loneliness.

这些人报告说，他们感到孤独感少了很多。

And I think it's a way of solving the problem that we're sensing right now in this, in this society, which is growing loneliness, a growing sense that no one values you, right, no one has your back.

我认为这是解决我们现在在这个社会中感受到的问题的一种方式，这个社会越来越孤独，越来越感觉没有人重视你，对，没有人支持你。

I was

我是

talking to Robert Waldinger, who, um, right, was the head of the Harvard Study on Adult Development, and I'm sure you've heard him say one of the biggest predictors

与罗伯特·瓦尔丁格交谈，他是哈佛成人发展研究的负责人，我相信你已经听过他说过最大的预测之一

for, uh, health is good personal relationships.

因为，呃，健康就是良好的人际关系。

But it's also having what he calls that 3:00 AM friend, right?

但它也有他所说的凌晨 3:00 朋友，对吧？

It's that friend that you know you can count on, that's not going to be like, "Uh, Andrew, yeah, I can't help you move today.

这是你知道你可以信赖的朋友，他不会说，“呃，安德鲁，是的，我今天不能帮你搬家。

Sorry, I got something better to do," right?

抱歉，我还有更重要的事情要做，”对吧？

And with God, even though God's not going to basically show up and help you move, if you believe and have faith in God, and you feel you can connect and converse with God, God's that 3:00 AM friend.

对于上帝来说，即使上帝基本上不会出现并帮助你移动，如果你相信上帝并有信心，并且你觉得你可以与上帝联系并交谈，那么上帝就是凌晨 3:00 的朋友。

He's there when you need it.

当你需要的时候他就在那里。

And so I can clearly see that helping people.

所以我可以清楚地看到帮助人们。

But

但是

in terms of the data, we don't know w- We know religious people are less lonely.

就数据而言，我们不知道——我们知道有宗教信仰的人不那么孤独。

We don't know how much of it is the sense of God or how much of it comes from community.

我们不知道其中有多少是上帝的感觉，有多少是来自社区。

It's probably a combo.

这大概是一个组合吧

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。

Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.

去年，在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我成为了 Function 成员。

Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health.

Function 提供 100 多项高级实验室测试，为您提供整个身体健康状况的关键快照。

This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more.

此快照为您提供有关心脏健康、激素健康、免疫功能、营养水平等方面的见解。

They've also recently added tests for toxins such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics and tests for PFASs or forever chemicals.

他们最近还增加了毒素测试，例如有害塑料中的 BPA 暴露以及 PFAS 或永久化学物质的测试。

Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas.

Function 不仅提供对您的身心健康至关重要的 100 多种生物标记物的测试，而且还分析这些结果并提供相关领域专家的顶级医生的见解。

For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood.

例如，在我第一次使用 Function 进行测试时，我发现我的血液中汞含量升高。

Function not only helped me detect that, but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, N-acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification.

功能不仅帮助我发现了这一点，还为我提供了如何最好地降低汞含量的见解，其中包括限制我的金枪鱼摄入量，我一直在吃大量金枪鱼​​，同时还努力多吃绿叶蔬菜并补充 NAC、N-乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都可以支持谷胱甘肽的产生和解毒。

And I should say, by taking a second Function test, that approach worked.

我应该说，通过进行第二次功能测试，这种方法奏效了。

Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important.

全面的血液检测至关重要。

There's so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test.

有很多与您的心理和身体健康相关的事情只能通过血液检查来检测。

The problem is blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated.

问题是血液检测一直非常昂贵且复杂。

In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost.

相比之下，Function 的简单性和成本水平给我留下了深刻的印象。

It is very affordable.

这是非常实惠的。

As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.

因此，我决定加入他们的科学顾问委员会，我很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。

If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman.

如果您想尝试 Function，可以访问 functionhealth.com/huberman。

Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman Podcast listeners.

Function 目前有超过 250,000 人的等候名单，但他们正在为 Huberman 播客听众提供早期访问服务。

Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.

同样，可以通过 functionhealth.com/huberman 提前访问 Function。

Yeah, and people will sometimes talk about being able to really feel him.

是的，人们有时会谈论能够真正感受到他。

That's usually the language that's used.

这就是通常使用的语言。

Yeah.

是的。

Uh, I mean, people close to me are, like-

呃，我是说，我身边的人，比如——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

really got it up seems like more and more these days.

这些天，真正起来的似乎越来越多了。

And, and I have some friends who are, you know, um, who are clearly atheists.

而且，我有一些朋友，你知道，嗯，他们显然是无神论者。

Yeah.

是的。

And I have friends that aren't.

我也有一些朋友不是这样的。

But this notion that you can feel God-

但这种你可以感受到上帝的观念——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

right, as a presence, not just, um, you know, s- like some being that you're in conversation with.

是的，作为一种存在，而不仅仅是，嗯，你知道，就像你正在与之交谈的某个存在。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

It's, it's in, obviously an internal feeling, but then people often, I've experienced this, will, will experience it kind of around you as well.

这显然是一种内在的感觉，但我经历过的人们经常也会在你周围经历这种感觉。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

And then, of course, I can step back and go, "Okay, well, that's my insular cortex," and, you know, the-

然后，当然，我可以退后一步，说：“好吧，那是我的岛状皮层，”而且，你知道，-

Right.

对。

Like, of course, right?

就像，当然，对吧？

But the, the argument that, um, anyone who believes in God or religion would make was, "Okay, well, how did that all get placed there?"

但是，嗯，任何相信上帝或宗教的人都会提出的论点是，“好吧，好吧，这一切是怎么放在那里的？”

Right.

正确的。

And then, and then we get back to the beginning of the conversation.

然后，然后我们回到谈话的开始。

No, that's right.

不，没错。

Right.

正确的。

It's just like-

这就像——

We're peeling back the layers of the onion-

我们正在剥洋葱层——

Right

右

...

...

and saying, "Well, who put that there?" And, um, it, it's actually probably, um, appropriate to raise, uh, the, the words intelligent design.

并说：“那么，是谁把它放在那里的？”而且，嗯，它，实际上可能，嗯，适合提出，呃，这个，智能设计这个词。

Um, yeah.

嗯，是的。

That was popular a few years ago.

这是几年前流行的。

Yeah.

是的。

It's kind of disappeared now in the-

现在它已经消失在——

Yeah

是啊

...

...

at least in the media.

至少在媒体上是这样。

Um, I studied the visual system and I worked on a number of other things, but in the context of the visual system, this is very, uh, relevant because, um, eyes are incredible in their ability to extract-...

嗯，我研究了视觉系统，还研究了许多其他的东西，但在视觉系统的背景下，这是非常，呃，相关的，因为，嗯，眼睛的提取能力令人难以置信……

Light information.

轻信息。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Obviously.

明显地。

And to allow us visual perceptions.

并让我们有视觉感知。

Um, and the evolution of the eye is kind of the linchpin argument for those that, uh, believe in intelligent design.

嗯，对于那些相信智能设计的人来说，眼睛的进化是关键论点。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

They always bring up that, you know, "The eye couldn't have developed this way."

他们总是提出，你知道，“眼睛不可能是这样发育的。”

Right.

正确的。

And I, I could tell you all sorts of things about evolution of the eye, 'cause I've spent a lot of time with this literature, uh, about how some eyes developed with the photoreceptors on one side of the retina and the others, and the-

我，我可以告诉你关于眼睛进化的各种各样的事情，因为我花了很多时间研究这些文献，呃，关于一些眼睛如何在视网膜一侧和其他一侧的光感受器上发育，以及-

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

photoreceptors facing outward.

光感受器朝外。

And, and, you know, and there are a bunch of different solutions to how you take light information and create perceptions of the outside world.

而且，你知道，对于如何获取光信息并创建对外部世界的感知有很多不同的解决方案。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

But if you were to look at any one of those, whether or not it's in a, a, you know, a crustacean that just needs to see light and dark, or v-, uh, or a, a s- some species that only needs to see if something's moving or stationary versus us, we have very high resolution vision, or a, a hawk that has twice our acuity, you'd say, "Yeah, it's a pretty spectacular thing."

但如果你观察其中的任何一种，无论它是甲壳类动物，只需要看到光明和黑暗，还是某些物种，只需要看看某物相对于我们是移动还是静止，我们拥有非常高分辨率的视觉，或者是一种敏锐度是我们两倍的鹰，你会说，“是的，这是一件非常壮观的事情。”

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Three cell layers, couple hundred different cell types, and you can create this rich experience that we call visual perception.

三个细胞层，数百种不同的细胞类型，您可以创造这种丰富的体验，我们称之为视觉感知。

You can close your eyes.

你可以闭上眼睛。

You can imagine things that you see.

你可以想象你所看到的事情。

Incredible.

极好的。

It's

这是

a good thing for the intelligent design folks to hang their hat on.

对于聪明的设计人员来说，这是一件好事。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

And yet anyone that studies evolution of eyes can tell you, "All right.

然而任何研究眼睛进化的人都可以告诉你，“好吧。

Let's start here.

让我们从这里开始吧。

PAX6, the gene, leads downstream to OTX2, to..." You know, and you can literally march someone through the logic that it's all genes, transcription factors, and proteins, and you get an eye.

PAX6，这个基因，通向下游到OTX2，到……”你知道，你可以从字面上引导某人通过所有基因、转录因子和蛋白质的逻辑，然后你就会得到一只眼睛。

In fact, there are people building eyes in dishes now from one cell.

事实上，现在有人用一个细胞在培养皿中培育眼睛。

You can take that cell, proliferate that cell, give it the right transcription factors, you can build what pretty much looks like an eye.

你可以取出那个细胞，增殖那个细胞，给它正确的转录因子，你就可以建造出看起来像眼睛的东西。

So, I feel like the, um, the complexity argument-

所以，我觉得，嗯，复杂性的论点——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

not the spirituality argument, is sometimes used-

不是灵性论据，有时被使用-

Sure

当然可以

...

...

to push back on the idea of God and religion, and I'm just wondering what your thoughts on that are, and, uh, because it's slightly different than saying, "Who, what came first?"

反驳上帝和宗教的观念，我只是想知道你对此有何想法，而且，呃，因为这与说“谁，什么先发生？”略有不同。

Yeah.

是的。

It's just saying, you know, "How could you get this?" And that's how I think where society lives right now.

它只是说，你知道，“你怎么能得到这个？”这就是我对当今社会的看法。

Yeah.

是的。

Um, people who believe that you could only get that complexity through God, and people who believe you could only get that complexity through biology.

嗯，人们相信你只能通过上帝获得这种复杂性，而人们相信你只能通过生物学获得这种复杂性。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

And they're just sort of clash-

他们只是有点冲突-

Yeah

是啊

...

...

even though, um, we don't hear about intelligent design quite so often these days.

尽管，嗯，现在我们不那么经常听到智能设计了。

Yeah, but it is related.

是的，但是有关系。

I mean, this is, this is kind of the fine-tuning argument again, as, as opposed to kind of physical concepts we're talking about, the evolution of the, of the eye or of the body.

我的意思是，这又是一种微调论证，与我们正在谈论的物理概念相反，眼睛或身体的进化。

Um, let me say,

嗯，让我说，

to me, the scientific method was the greatest, one of the greatest discoveries ever, and I'm grateful for it being a scientist.

对我来说，科学方法是最伟大的，是有史以来最伟大的发现之一，我很感激作为一名科学家。

I do not believe in intelligent design.

我不相信智能设计。

Um, but we're in one of those situations again where people can interpret it different ways.

嗯，但我们又处于这样一种情况，人们可以用不同的方式解释它。

You know, there is every reason to believe the eye could have evolved in the way it did, and there were probably lots of different mutations that didn't benefit things, and then by probability, those all went away, and the ones that did kind of went forward, on and on.

你知道，我们有充分的理由相信眼睛可以按照它原来的方式进化，而且可能有很多不同的突变对事物没有好处，然后很可能，那些都消失了，而那些确实的突变继续前进，一直持续下去。

Um, I think for some people, what it really is, is this sense of awe, right?

嗯，我觉得对于有些人来说，这到底是什么，就是敬畏感，对吗？

When you see something that is so spectacularly complex like the eye, you're kind of awed by it.

当你看到像眼睛这样极其复杂的东西时，你会对它感到敬畏。

How did it evolve in just this way?

它是如何演化成这样的呢？

And so that emotion itself, the experience of awe itself actually makes people more open to supernatural experiences.

因此，情感本身，敬畏的体验本身实际上使人们对超自然体验更加开放。

So, this is wonderful work done by a student of mine, uh, now a professor, um, at St. Olaf, uh, Carlo Valdesolo, and what he showed is that when you

所以，这是我的一个学生所做的出色工作，呃，现在是一名教授，嗯，在圣奥拉夫，呃，卡洛·瓦尔德索洛，他所展示的是，当你

allow people to feel awe by showing them natural beauty, like pictures of the Grand Canyon or wonderful sunsets, or however you're going to induce it architecturally,

通过向人们展示自然美景，例如大峡谷的图片或美妙的日落，或者无论您如何在建筑上诱导它，让人们感到敬畏，

people suddenly

人们突然

give more probability

给出更多的概率

to the idea that there is something beyond them, right?

认为有一些东西超越了他们，对吧？

And so here again, you're seeing the combo.

所以在这里，你再次看到了这个组合。

You're seeing, "Well, this, how could this ever form?

你会看到，“嗯，这，这怎么可能形成？

I'm in awe of it.

我对此感到敬畏。

Oh, I'm feeling that emotion that makes me more open to the idea that there is in fact something beyond." And it seems to feel right.

哦，我感受到的那种情绪让我更加愿意接受事实上存在超越的东西的想法。”感觉似乎不错。

And let's face it, most people, if you're not trained scientifically, you don't really understand how to think probabilogically.

让我们面对现实吧，大多数人，如果没有接受过科学训练，就不会真正理解如何进行概率思考。

And I'm not saying that's a problem with people, it's just part of our business, right?

我并不是说这是人们的问题，这只是我们业务的一部分，对吗？

We, we have to learn how to think that way.

我们，我们必须学习如何以这种方式思考。

Um, and so it just seems like so completely impossible that this one out of a trillion thing could happen.

嗯，所以这似乎是完全不可能发生的一万亿分之一的事情。

But if you think about how many other steps were taken, how many other different ways the lines could have gone in the genetics, they probably did, and they probably didn't work.

但如果你想想还采取了多少其他步骤，这些细胞系在遗传学中可能以多少其他不同的方式进行，它们可能做到了，但也可能不起作用。

And so they're left bi- It's kind of like the argument, "I never wore a seatbelt and I'm alive." Well, you are, but a lot of the other people who didn't, aren't, right?

所以他们留下了双-这有点像争论，“我从来没有系过安全带，但我还活着。”嗯，你是，但其他很多人没有，不是，对吧？

And so you can't prove it that way.

所以你不能那样证明它。

So for me, I think, again, it brings me back to this issue of why I just don't think it's a relevant scientific question, because you can't prove it one way or the other.

所以对我来说，我想，这又让我回到了为什么我不认为这是一个相关的科学问题的问题，因为你无法以一种或另一种方式证明它。

And so it's always gonna come down to faith.

所以这总是归结为信仰。

And so even people who make intelligent design arguments, ultimately, I find them not persuasive, because as you said, we can work our way to it.

因此，即使是提出智能设计论点的人，最终我也发现他们没有说服力，因为正如你所说，我们可以努力实现它。

And then how do you prove there's two routes to get there?

那么你如何证明有两条路线可以到达那里呢？

How do you prove which one it was?

怎么证明是哪一个呢？

It's an article of faith.

这是一篇信仰文章。

Yeah.

是的。

Uh, well, I personally believe in evolutionary theory.

呃，我个人相信进化论。

Yeah, me too.

是的，我也是。

Um, and I also believe in God, and I don't think they're mutually exclusive.

嗯，我也相信上帝，我不认为它们是相互排斥的。

Well, this is the other problem, right?

嗯，这是另一个问题，对吗？

People say, "Well, I know

人们说：“好吧，我知道

what God is and what God did." If there is a God and the way God created the universe and did things, none of us have any conception of that, and it's probably beyond our brain's ability to understand what that is.

神是什么以及神做了什么。”如果存在上帝，以及上帝创造宇宙和做事的方式，我们没有人对此有任何概念，而且可能超出了我们大脑的理解能力。

And so for me, like you, I, I don't see any tension.

所以对我来说，就像你一样，我没有看到任何紧张。

It, the tension comes when you become very tied to actual texts, right?

当你与实际文本紧密相连时，就会产生紧张感，对吗？

And, and, and positions of people interpreting what they think God did or what they think God said, and that's where you run into problems.

人们解释他们认为上帝所做的事情或他们认为上帝所说的话的立场，这就是你遇到问题的地方。

Yeah, I feel like the word that keeps sneaking up in my mind is overwhelm.

是的，我觉得这个词一直在我的脑海里潜行，让人不知所措。

I mean, we, we could think of awe as a......

我的意思是，我们，我们可以将敬畏视为......

positive experience.

积极的经历。

It usually is.

通常是这样。

But it, in some sense, you have to wonder whether or not, uh, some of the, where one inserts belief in God versus belief in a, in a scientific process-

但从某种意义上说，你必须想知道，呃，是否有一些，在一个科学过程中，人们插入对上帝的信仰与对某种的信仰——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

again-

再次——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

not mutually exclusive-

并不相互排斥——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

but, um, has to do with where they sort of draw the line of overwhelm, or where the line of overwhelm arises for them.

但是，嗯，这与他们在哪里划定压倒性界限，或者在哪里出现压倒性界限有关。

Because when I look at the Grand Canyon, I don't know much about geology.

因为我看大峡谷的时候，对地质了解不多。

Uh, I have some sense of how it got there.

呃，我知道它是如何到达那里的。

But it is kind of overwhelming, right?

但这有点势不可挡，对吧？

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

I can't just zero in on one, you know, kinda layer of sedimentation and, and know the story of that.

我不能只是归零，你知道，有点沉淀，并且知道其中的故事。

Which makes perfect sense why there are, you know, millions of layers on top of it.

这完全有道理为什么上面有数百万层。

And then, of course, you would get that.

然后，当然，你就会明白了。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Th- th- that wall within the Grand Canyon.

那——那——大峡谷内的那堵墙。

Whereas, I can look at an eye, um, whether or not it's in a cuttlefish, which have very interesting eyes by the way, W-shaped pupils, um, or a old world primate eye like ours, and I can say, yeah, I, I, you know, if you had a couple hours and you were having trouble falling asleep, I could tell you the story of how, uh, the photoreceptors wired up with the bipolar cells-

然而，我可以观察一只眼睛，嗯，不管它是不是墨鱼的眼睛，顺便说一下，它们有非常有趣的眼睛，W形的瞳孔，嗯，或者像我们这样的旧世界灵长类动物的眼睛，我可以说，是的，我，我，你知道，如果你有几个小时并且难以入睡，我可以告诉你这个故事，呃，光感受器如何与双极细胞连接起来 -

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

or the ganglion cells, and how it tells your, your brain everything from time of day to the, the color and contour of images in the room.

或者神经节细胞，以及它如何告诉你的大脑从一天中的时间到房间中图像的颜色和轮廓的一切。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Like, we understand that.

就像，我们明白这一点。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

So there's no overwhelm for me.

所以对我来说没有什么压力。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

That's fair.

这很公平。

Whereas if I try and think about...

然而，如果我尝试思考……

Or, or brain development.

或者，或者大脑发育。

I mean, I teach fetal development.

我的意思是，我教胎儿发育。

I mean, it's amazing.

我的意思是，这太棒了。

Two cells, sperm and egg, and you get a, if all things go well, you get a baby.

两个细胞，精子和卵子，然后你就会得到一个，如果一切顺利，你就会得到一个婴儿。

You get a human.

你得到一个人类。

And it's kind of like an, uh, an overwhelming experience, but-

这有点像，呃，一种压倒性的经历，但是——

Yeah

是啊

...

...

we understand a lot of how that happens.

我们非常了解这是如何发生的。

It, it still is miraculous.

它，它仍然很神奇。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

It does seem like a miracle.

这看起来确实是一个奇迹。

So we assign these words like awe or miracle-

所以我们把这些词当作敬畏或奇迹——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

um, to things that I think they sort of are at the line of, of overwhelm for-

嗯，对于我认为它们有点压倒性的事情——

Yeah

是啊

...

...

what our brain can comprehend.

我们的大脑可以理解什么。

And for different people, it's different.

而且对于不同的人来说，情况也是不同的。

Now, as I say that, it almost sounds like I'm drawing a, like a distinction between those that can have knowledge and-

现在，正如我所说，听起来我似乎在区分那些可以拥有知识和-

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

can handle and tho-, um, a concept, and those that don't.

可以处理，嗯，一个概念，以及那些不能处理的。

And I'm not.

而我不是。

Because if you were to, uh, for instance, uh, present me with, um, well, a, a natural scene.

因为如果你要，呃，例如，呃，给我呈现一个，嗯，嗯，一个自然场景。

Like, I love Yosemite.

就像，我喜欢优胜美地。

I go there, I'll go there soon to watch the meteor shower.

我去那里，我很快就去那里看流星雨。

I don't know how th- all that works.

我不知道这一切是如何运作的。

Right.

正确的。

I've got colleagues and friends who know pieces-

我有一些了解碎片的同事和朋友-

Right

右

...

...

of it, and it, it, it's much better for me to just experience that and think about how people thousands of years ago saw the exact same thing.

它，它，它，对我来说，体验这一点并思考几千年前的人们如何看到完全相同的事情要好得多。

And it becomes a, a spiritual-

它变成了，一种精神上的——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

religious experience for me.

对我来说宗教经历。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

It, I, you f- I will anticipate, we'll see how the, how much cloud cover there is this year.

它、我、你、我会预计，我们会看看今年的云层覆盖情况如何、有多少。

But I will feel connected to, to people-

但我会感到与人有联系——

Yeah

是啊

...

...

to God, et cetera.

向上帝，等等。

Yeah.

是的。

So, d- you see?

那么，你-你明白了吗？

No, I think that's-

不，我认为那是——

Like, I feel like there's a line of overwhelm feels big.

就像，我觉得有一条线压倒性的感觉很大。

Yeah.

是的。

Likewise with grief.

悲伤也是如此。

Yeah.

是的。

Birth of a child.

孩子的出生。

Yeah.

是的。

Um, there's something that, like, fills us with...

嗯，有一些东西让我们充满……

I don't know what you call the emotion.

我不知道你所谓的情感是什么。

Maybe it's, uh, it, it...

也许是，呃，它，它……

But it feels like a, a welling up of, of, like, neural activity, chemical activity.

但感觉就像神经活动、化学活动的涌出。

Yeah.

是的。

And we kind of go, "This is a spiritual experience."

我们会说，“这是一种精神体验。”

Yeah.

是的。

But that's also because I can't break it down.

但这也是因为我无法分解它。

That's true.

这是真的。

And I don't want to.

我不想。

No.

不。

You know?

你知道吗？

And that's, and that's in some ways what awe is.

这就是，从某种程度上来说，这就是敬畏。

You're hitting on it exactly right.

你说得完全正确。

It's a sense of, of not being able to fully comprehend, feeling small in the presence of it.

这是一种无法完全理解的感觉，在它面前感觉自己很渺小。

But I think the point that you're making that I wanna make sure isn't lost is when you can understand it,

但我认为你所说的我想确保你不会迷失的一点是你何时能够理解它，

still doesn't mean

仍然不意味着

it's not miraculous.

这并不神奇。

Right.

正确的。

Or that God, if you're a person of faith, didn't set that process in motion.

或者，如果你是一个有信仰的人，上帝并没有启动这个过程。

And this is, again, is, is why I th- think it's really important.

这也是我认为这非常重要的原因。

It's like, when we learn to explain something, we get an insight into

就像，当我们学会解释某件事时，我们就会深入了解

the power of creation.

创造的力量。

By creation I mean following evolution, not God created the world in six days creation.

我所说的创造是指遵循进化论，而不是上帝在六天内创造了世界。

But as a lot of scientists who are people of faith will say, that to me is awesome.

但正如许多有信仰的科学家会说的那样，这对我来说太棒了。

I appreciate the, the awe of creation, that it, it happened this way.

我欣赏对创造的敬畏，它以这种方式发生。

It doesn't negate my belief in God because I can explain it.

它并没有否定我对上帝的信仰，因为我可以解释它。

God put us here with a brain to learn and to understand how God's creation works.

上帝赋予我们一个大脑来学习和理解上帝的创造是如何运作的。

Um, and so I think

嗯，所以我想

your point about overwhelm is right, but I wanna make sure people realize that it doesn't mean that when you can explain it-

你关于压倒性的观点是正确的，但我想确保人们意识到这并不意味着当你可以解释它时-

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

it's reducible.

它是可还原的。

Yeah.

是的。

I agree.

我同意。

I mean, I, I, um, recently started raising coral.

我的意思是，我，我，嗯，最近开始饲养珊瑚。

And I'm, like, in awe of coral.

我对珊瑚很敬畏。

Hmm.

唔。

And it makes me feel no less, um, uh, in touch with the, the incredible diversity of life and, and no less in touch with...

这让我感觉，嗯，呃，与生命令人难以置信的多样性的接触，并且，与……的接触也不少。

And, and all the mechanisms, but no less in touch with, uh, notions of God or spirituality.

而且，还有所有的机制，但同样与，呃，上帝或灵性的概念有联系。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

The, the two seem to blend for me.

这两者对我来说似乎融合在一起。

But they di- that wasn't always true.

但他们认为这并不总是正确的。

In one of Richard Feynman's books, he talks about the fact that someone once challenged him with the idea that, "Well, you know, if you can understand all the elements of a-"

在理查德·费曼的一本书中，他谈到了这样一个事实：有人曾经向他提出这样的挑战：“好吧，你知道，如果你能理解一个——”的所有元素。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

"...

“……

of a rose or..." I forget what the example was.

一朵玫瑰或……”我忘记了这个例子是什么。

You know, doesn't that, um, you know, at the quantum level, doesn't that diminish your experience of it?

你知道，那不是，嗯，你知道，在量子层面上，这不会减少你的体验吗？

And he said, "No. To the contrary, it enriches my experience of it."

他说：“不。相反，它丰富了我的经历。”

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

I don't know if he was a religious person or not.

我不知道他是否有宗教信仰。

Something tells me probably not, but who knows?

有件事告诉我可能不会，但谁知道呢？

Probably not.

可能不会。

I don't know.

我不知道。

And then, you know, and I like the anecdote about, um, Steve Jobs, who unfortunately had said on his deathbed-

然后，你知道，我喜欢关于史蒂夫·乔布斯的轶事，不幸的是，他在临终前说过——

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

...

...

you know, uh, he, he was a spiritual person, into meditation, and obviously strongly, uh, uh, oriented towards technology also.

你知道，呃，他，他是一个有灵性的人，喜欢冥想，而且显然也强烈地，呃，呃，面向技术。

But his final words, I think, were, um, like, uh, "Wow.

但我认为他的最后一句话是，嗯，呃，“哇。

Wow."

哇。”

Hmm.

唔。

And I think we are all kind of, um, captivated by notions of the passage from-

我认为我们都被……嗯，被这段经文的概念所吸引——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

from life to death.

从生到死。

Like wh- what is that?

就像那-那是什么？

What comes next?

接下来会发生什么？

Um, none of us still here know, uh, for sure.

嗯，我们还在这里，没有人知道，呃，当然。

And I do wanna raise this, this issue of fear of death.

我确实想提出这个问题，这个对死亡的恐惧的问题。

Sure.

当然。

As a...

作为一个...

I mean, philosophers have talked about this.

我的意思是，哲学家们已经讨论过这个问题。

Psychologists have talked about this.

心理学家曾经讨论过这个问题。

I mean, the one thing that, um, I think lives in all of our brains, um, conscious or not, is a fear of death.

我的意思是，嗯，我认为存在于我们所有大脑中的一件事，嗯，无论是否有意识，都是对死亡的恐惧。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Huge religions are geared around the idea that this life is not the last life.

巨大的宗教都围绕着这样的观念：今生不是最后一世。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

What is known about people's belief in afterlife-

关于人们对来世的信仰，我们所知的是——

Yeah

是啊

...

...

being able to calm them about fear of death.

能够安抚他们对死亡的恐惧。

I've heard it argued, and, uh, we'll talk more about addiction in a moment, that all addiction is fear of death or gambling or both.

我听过有人争论，呃，我们稍后会更多地讨论成瘾，所有的成瘾都是对死亡或赌博或两者的恐惧。

Um, and it's all gambling addiction.

嗯，都是赌瘾。

Yeah.

是的。

Some people gamble in casinos, other people gamble in other ways.

有些人在赌场赌博，其他人则以其他方式赌博。

Yeah.

是的。

But that is, if you really start peeling back the layers, it's all fear of death.

但就是说，如果你真的开始剥开层层，那都是对死亡的恐惧。

The e- the death anxiety being the one thing that binds all of us.

死亡焦虑是束缚我们所有人的一件事。

So, afterlife, fear of death, heaven, hell.

所以，来世，对死亡的恐惧，天堂，地狱。

Yeah.

是的。

You know, break it down for us.

你知道，为我们分解一下。

Yeah.

是的。

So what we know, right, is that, um, if you look at, uh, anxiety around death, it's, it's kind of a, um, an upside down you, right?

所以我们所知道的是，嗯，如果你看看，呃，围绕死亡的焦虑，那就是，嗯，一个颠倒的你，对吧？

So people who really believe in an afterlife, they have the least anxiety about death, because they feel like, "I'm going someplace good." People who firmly reject any form of afterlife, they're a little more anxious than the believers, but they're less anxious than one other group, right?

所以真正相信来世的人，他们对死亡的焦虑最少，因为他们感觉“我要去一个好地方”。那些坚决拒绝任何形式的来世的人，他们比信徒更焦虑一点，但他们比其他群体不那么焦虑，对吗？

'Cause they're like, "Oh, I'm gonna end up in the ground.

因为他们会说，“哦，我最终会被埋在地里。

Okay, don't like it, fine." The group that is the most anxious about death are the people who don't know.

好吧，不喜欢就好了。”对死亡最焦虑的群体是那些不知道死亡的人。

Because they're like, "Oh, wait, is there an afterlife?

因为他们会说，“哦，等等，有来世吗？

And if there is, did I do what I need to get into that afterlife?" And so those folks are the ones, because they're struggling with the belief, like, certainty, right?

如果有的话，我是否做了进入来世所需的一切？”所以这些人就是这样的人，因为他们正在与信念作斗争，比如确定性，对吗？

We know the bo- the brain likes certainty one way or the other.

我们知道大脑喜欢这样或那样的确定性。

And certainty that things are gonna be good is better than certainty that there's just an end and there's no suffering.

确定一切都会好起来，比确定只有结局、没有痛苦要好。

It's just an end.

这只是一个结束。

There's no hell you're going to.

你不会去地狱的。

But the people who don't know, they're the ones who are the most anxious.

但不知道的人，才是最着急的。

And so, um, I think for...

所以，嗯，我想...

I think, I think, um, the reason a lot of religions talk about this, well, there are multiple reasons.

我认为，我认为，嗯，很多宗教谈论这个的原因，有多种原因。

One is because it's just inherently strange to think that you're a conscious being and one day that consciousness is gonna end.

其一是因为认为自己是一个有意识的存在并且有一天意识会终结，这本质上是很奇怪的。

And so that's scary.

所以这很可怕。

But it often gets tied into a way to shape people's behavior, right?

但它常常与塑造人们行为的方式联系在一起，对吧？

Religions use that fear as a way to guide people, right?

宗教利用这种恐惧来引导人们，对吗？

You better

你最好

be a good person or your karma is gonna be bad and your next life is gonna be in a worse position, or you're gonna go to hell and have pain for some period of time or perhaps everlasting.

做一个好人，否则你的业会很糟糕，你的下辈子会处于更糟糕的境地，或者你会下地狱，承受一段时间甚至永远的痛苦。

And so it takes on this moral tone, and that fear is very motivating, right?

所以它呈现出这种道德基调，而这种恐惧是非常激励人心的，对吧？

We know from the psychological literature, if you want to get somebody to do something, fear is a great way to motivate them.

我们从心理学文献中知道，如果你想让某人做某事，恐惧是激励他们的好方法。

The problem with that is, is if you're constantly afraid of it all the time, your body is in a state of anxiety, and that's not healthy for you.

问题是，如果你一直害怕它，你的身体就会处于焦虑状态，这对你来说并不健康。

And so, um, I think a lot of faiths try to kind of reinterpret

所以，嗯，我认为很多信仰都试图重新解释

fear of death in a different way.

对死亡的恐惧以不同的方式出现。

Death isn't always bad.

死亡并不总是坏事。

So one thing you'll find in a lot of faiths is they ask you to contemplate your death.

所以你会在很多信仰中发现一件事，那就是他们要求你思考你的死亡。

So in, in Buddhism, there are meditations that are focused on thinking about yourself dying.

因此，在佛教中，有一些冥想专注于思考自己的死亡。

There's even these intense forms of meditation, I forget the actual

甚至还有这些强烈的冥想形式，我忘记了真正的冥想

word in the original language, but they're basically called corpse meditations, where people, the monks will meditate in front of a decaying corpse over days as a way to study that you can actually see and experience what will happen to you.

在原始语言中这个词，但它们基本上被称为尸体冥想，人们，僧侣会在腐烂的尸体前冥想几天，作为研究的一种方式，你可以实际看到和体验将会发生在你身上的事情。

In, um, Christianity, right, there's this sense of contemplate your death.

在，嗯，基督教中，对吧，有一种思考你的死亡的感觉。

On Ash Wednesday, which is the start of the season before Easter, uh, in many traditions, the priest will put ashes on your head or the minister will put ashes on your head and say, "From dust you came, to dust you will, you will go." It's a reminder that you're gonna die.

在圣灰星期三，即复活节前季节的开始，呃，在许多传统中，牧师会将骨灰放在你的头上，或者牧师会将骨灰放在你的头上，并说：“你来自尘土，你将归于尘土，你也会去。”这是在提醒你你快要死了。

In Judaism, it's interesting, even on their New Year's, which is Rosh Hashanah, that's a celebratory day, there's this prayer they say in, in temple called the, uh, Unetanneh Tokef.

在犹太教中，这很有趣，即使在他们的新年，即犹太新年，那是一个庆祝的日子，他们在名为，呃，Unetanneh Tokef 的寺庙里祈祷。

And part of that is, who's not gonna be here next year?

其中一部分是，明年谁不会来这里？

Look around.

环顾四周。

Some will die by floods, some by famine, some by illness, some by fire.

有的人死于水灾，有的人死于饥荒，有的人死于疾病，有的人死于火灾。

And again, it's a reminder that life is ephemeral.

这再次提醒我们生命是短暂的。

And so the trick with this is, if you can think about your death not in a morbid way, not in a way that you dwell on it, it's actually quite useful.

所以这个的诀窍是，如果你能不以一种病态的方式，而不是以一种沉迷于它的方式来思考你的死亡，它实际上是非常有用的。

So the one thing we know in, in psychological science is that as people age, their values change, right?

所以我们在心理科学中知道的一件事是，随着人们年龄的增长，他们的价值观会发生变化，对吧？

When you're young, you want the new iPhone, you want to go on a great vacation, you want to get ahead, all of these kind of bucket list things for, um, that you think will make you happy.

当你年轻的时候，你想要新的 iPhone，你想要度过一个愉快的假期，你想要出人头地，所有这些你认为会让你快乐的愿望清单上的事情。

As you begin to age and you can see the end on the horizon, people's values change.

当你开始变老并看到地平线上的终结时，人们的价值观会发生变化。

Suddenly, they value time with loved ones, service to others, kind of things that build a legacy, right?

突然间，他们开始重视与亲人共度时光、为他人服务，以及那些能够留下遗产的事情，对吗？

Um, interestingly, if you look at the literature, those are the things that really bring happiness at any age.

嗯，有趣的是，如果你看看文献，这些都是在任何年龄段都能真正带来幸福的东西。

Those are the things that, experiences of people you love, service to others, make you happy.

这些是让你快乐的事情，你所爱的人的经历，为他人服务。

And so

等等

as we age, we come to realize that.

随着年龄的增长，我们逐渐意识到这一点。

Work by the psychologist Laura Carstensen at Stanford shows that if you have people contemplate their death when they're young, temporarily reorients their values toward the things that truly bring...

斯坦福大学心理学家劳拉·卡斯滕森 (Laura Carstensen) 的研究表明，如果人们在年轻时考虑自己的死亡，就会暂时将他们的价值观重新调整为真正能带来……的事物。

Suddenly, they'll start caring about that stuff.

突然间，他们会开始关心这些事情。

And so the idea of contemplating death that is a part of almost every religious tradition, if you do it

因此，思考死亡的想法几乎是每个宗教传统的一部分，如果你这样做的话

for a short period of time, and not in a morbid way, but daily, actually points you toward the things in life that make you more happy.

在短时间内，不是以一种病态的方式，而是每天，实际上会引导你走向生活中让你更快乐的事情。

And so

等等

if you then become a person of faith, y- you also believe that the end is gonna be good for you as well.

如果你成为一个有信仰的人，你-你也相信结局也会对你有好处。

And so you don't have that anxiety.

所以你不会有那种焦虑。

And so I think religion and death is a complicated thing.

所以我认为宗教和死亡是一件复杂的事情。

There is fear of death, but there's also a way to use

对死亡有恐惧，但也有办法利用

the idea that life is ephemeral to help us find happiness sooner than we typically do.

生命短暂的想法可以帮助我们比平常更快地找到幸福。

On a related note, I think one of the most interesting things about the human brain, aside from its ability to change itself-

与此相关的是，我认为除了人类大脑改变自身的能力之外，最有趣的事情之一是——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

plasticity, is how much control we have over our perception of time.

可塑性，是指我们对时间感知的控制程度。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

And when I say perception of time, I mean our ability to contract or expand our window of perception.

当我说时间感知时，我指的是我们收缩或扩大感知窗口的能力。

So, just like we can contract and expand our visual window, um, we can contract and expand our perception of time.

所以，就像我们可以收缩和扩大我们的视觉窗口一样，嗯，我们可以收缩和扩大我们对时间的感知。

So, um, in a conversation like this, it's a fairly compact, I'm thinking about just the now.

所以，嗯，在这样的谈话中，这是一个相当紧凑的，我只想着现在。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

...

...

if I were to take a walk this afternoon and I wanted to think about, you know, "Who walked on this beach-

如果我今天下午去散步，我想思考，你知道，“谁在这个海滩上行走过——

Yeah

是啊

...

...

before me and, and before them, and who's gonna come after?" I can start to, um, see a bigger time bin, as we call it, time window.

在我之前，在他们之前，谁会在之后呢？”我可以开始，嗯，看到一个更大的时间段，我们称之为时间窗口。

And then the significance of any one thing that's happening in the current moment becomes much smaller.

然后，当前发生的任何一件事的重要性都会变得小得多。

Uh, I think about this a lot.

呃，我想了很多。

And there's a wonderful book, um, that's not available in audio form- ...

还有一本很棒的书，嗯，没有音频形式-......

called The Secret Pulse of Time, that, that gets into how this, uh, expansion-contraction works.

叫做《时间的秘密脉动》，这涉及到这个，呃，膨胀-收缩是如何运作的。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

But, um, I feel like thread through every religion and every religious practice is an attempt to reconcile the, the, uh, the need to feel, quote unquote, present-

但是，嗯，我觉得贯穿每一种宗教和每一种宗教实践都是一种试图调和，呃，感觉的需要，引用不引用，呈现——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

to live in the now, to do good deeds now, to not do bad deeds, to, to, um, be, uh, grateful.

活在当下，做好事，不做坏事，感恩。

All, all of that, uh, socially connected, but also to link us to something larger that is

所有，所有这些，呃，都有社会联系，但也将我们与更大的事物联系起来

basically designed to humble us.

基本上是为了让我们谦虚。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

That we're, we're not as important as we think.

我们其实并没有我们想象的那么重要。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Um, no one problem is as important.

嗯，没有一个问题是那么重要。

Um, even the biggest challenge in the world is, um, this too shall pass.

嗯，即使是世界上最大的挑战也是，嗯，这也会过去的。

Maybe not in your lifetime because you're thinking about it until your last breath.

也许在你的一生中不会，因为你直到最后一口气都在思考它。

Let's hope not.

我们希望不会。

But no one else is gonna be worried about it afterwards.

但之后没有人会担心这件事。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

So I don't quite know how to formulate this question, but what I'm asking is here, um,

所以我不太知道如何提出这个问题，但我要问的是，嗯，

perhaps, again, it's, it's the notion that if one thinks really about the fact that we're gonna die-

或许，再一次，这是一种观念，如果一个人认真思考我们会死的事实——

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

We're all gonna die.

我们都会死。

There are people who are claiming they're not gonna die, but they too are going to die.

有些人声称他们不会死，但他们也会死。

There's a lot of overwhelm in that.

这里面有很多压倒性的东西。

If you really go into that and you re- you know, if you're attached to y- your present life and the present moment as the most important thing.

如果你真的投入其中，你就会知道，如果你执着于你目前的生活和当下的时刻，将其视为最重要的事情。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

But if you can access ideas and feelings around the fact that, you know, you're part of a continuum.

但是，如果您能够围绕这一事实获得想法和感受，您就会知道，您是连续体的一部分。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Um, you're connected to people in the past that had the same fears.

嗯，你和过去有同样恐惧的人有联系。

That alone makes you feel a little less, a less, uh, it seems a little less futile.

仅此一点就让你感觉少了一点，少了一点，呃，似乎少了一点徒劳。

So the question I have is, what do you see across religions that allows people to bring themselves some peace around th- the reality that they're going to die, that is, um, really about connectedness, uh, not just with other people, but in time?

所以我的问题是，你在宗教中看到了什么，让人们在他们将要死亡的现实周围给自己带来一些平静，也就是说，嗯，真正的联系，呃，不仅是与其他人的联系，而且是与时间的联系？

Um, the Buddhists, um, seem to have mastered this through a daily practice of meditation.

嗯,佛教徒,嗯,好像是通过每天的冥想练习掌握了这一点。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

In other religions, it seems it comes about through what we call holidays.

在其他宗教中，它似乎是通过我们所说的假期来实现的。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Um, you know, each year on the same days, roughly, we go through the same practices that kinda links up year to year.

嗯，你知道，每年在同一天，大致上，我们都会经历相同的做法，这些做法与每年都有联系。

It breaks up the, the moment-to-momentness of things.

它打破了事物的瞬间。

D'you see where I'm getting with this?

你明白我的意思了吗？

Yeah.

是的。

I'm sorry this isn't a better formulated question, but I, I think about this all the time.

抱歉，这不是一个更好的问题，但我一直在思考这个问题。

I still don't know how to talk about it because there really isn't a language for this time elasticity.

我仍然不知道如何谈论它，因为确实没有一种语言可以描述这种时间弹性。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Um, anyway, I love your thoughts on, on this, if, if, uh, if you would.

嗯，无论如何，我喜欢你对此的想法，如果，如果，呃，如果你愿意的话。

I have a friend who's a rabbi.

我有一个朋友，他是拉比。

And not being Jewish, one day I said to her, "So, you know,

我不是犹太人，有一天我对她说：“所以，你知道，

why do you still pray in Hebrew?

为什么你仍然用希伯来语祈祷？

You know, in, in Catholicism we don't pray in Latin anymore.

你知道，在天主教中，我们不再用拉丁语祈祷。

Like, we pray in English."

就像，我们用英语祈祷。”

Yeah.

是的。

Good point.

好点。

Right?

正确的？

And what she said was, "I mean, part of it is, is, is, is, is to keep the culture, but part of it is, too," she says, "it is sometimes an amazing experience when I stop to think that the words I am saying now

她说的是，“我的意思是，其中一部分是为了保持文化，但也有一部分是，”她说，“当我停下来思考我现在所说的话时，有时这是一种令人惊奇的经历

have been said by Jews for thousands of years going back.

犹太人几千年前就这么说过。

And those same words will be said, hopefully, thousands of years going forward.

希望未来数千年，人们仍会说出同样的话。

And what it does is it situates me in this sequence of time.

它所做的就是将我置于这样的时间序列中。

And I know that the challenges that I'm facing have been faced by people before and will be faced by people afterward.

我知道我所面临的挑战以前人们曾经面临过，以后也会有人面临。

And in that experience, I feel part of something greater." And I think, you know, one thing we're seeing now, you keep hearing on, um, on the news, uh, how, um, people are leaving traditional faith, and they are.

在这次经历中，我感觉自己是更伟大事物的一部分。”我想，你知道，我们现在看到的一件事，你不断听到，嗯，新闻，呃，嗯，人们如何离开传统信仰，他们确实如此。

But there's a subset of people who are actually going back to more Orthodox faith, traditional Catholicism, Orthodox Judaism.

但有一部分人实际上正在回归正统信仰、传统天主教、正统犹太教。

And what they'll often say is there's an appreciation in these forms, whether it's still the Latin mass or other types of things, for things that have felt true and universal through time.

他们经常说的是，无论是拉丁弥撒还是其他类型的事物，这些形式都存在着一种欣赏，因为它们随着时间的流逝而感觉真实且普遍。

And when I worship that way, I feel that connection to humanity and this sense that we're all in this together.

当我以这种方式敬拜时，我感受到了与人类的联系以及我们都在一起的感觉。

And they find and feel a sense of, of deeper purpose.

他们发现并感受到了一种更深层次的目标感。

Like, things just aren't relative and, you know, changing here and there depending upon people's norms and morays at the moment.

就像，事情并不是相对的，你知道，根据人们目前的规范和海鳗，这里和那里都会发生变化。

And so, you know, there's no work that I can think of that points to this, but I think the phenomenon you're describing is one that is very, um,

所以，你知道，我想不出任何工作可以指出这一点，但我认为你所描述的现象是非常，嗯，

felt by a lot of people, especially if they engage in practices that have a longer tradition going back.

很多人都有这种感觉，尤其是当他们从事具有更悠久传统的做法时。

Because I think the human brain's ability to distract itself into task or moments or recreation or drug itself, um, so that you don't pay attention to the passage of time, this is why I do think that a lot of addictive behavior, but also just a lot of, um, what we call kind of unconscious

因为我认为人类大脑有能力将自己的注意力转移到任务、时刻、娱乐或药物本身上，嗯，这样你就不会注意到时间的流逝，这就是为什么我确实认为很多成瘾行为，但也只是很多，嗯，我们所说的无意识行为

stuff, like scrolling or-

东西，比如滚动或者-

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

you know, or

你知道，或者

eating food that's not good for us even when we're not hungry, like, these things are just a...

即使我们不饿，吃对我们也不好的食物，比如，这些东西只是......

You know, I have a, a friend and she said, "You know, yeah, I'll get lost in, in audiobooks sometimes." I said, "Well, audiobooks are great.

你知道，我有一个朋友，她说，“你知道，是的，有时我会迷失在有声读物中。”我说：“嗯，有声读物很棒。

Reading's great." She's like, "Not the way she's using them," right?

读书真好。”她说，“这不是她使用它们的方式，”对吧？

To just get lost, as a way-

迷路，作为一种方式——

Yeah

是啊

...

...

to distract.

分散注意力。

Yeah.

是的。

We don't know how to sometimes deal with, um,

有时我们不知道如何应对，嗯，

quiet.

安静。

Why not?

为什么不呢？

Is it 'cause we feel alone?

是因为我们感到孤独吗？

Well, if not, then I think it's like this...

好吧，如果不是的话，那么我想事情就是这样的......

I think it is really a fear of death.

我想这确实是一种对死亡的恐惧。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Um, along the lines of addiction, I find it interesting that, um, in all the different, uh, sectors of, of 12-step programs, which I think the data now show can be very effective-

嗯，沿着成瘾的思路，我发现有趣的是，嗯，在 12 步计划的所有不同领域，我认为现在的数据表明这些计划非常有效——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

uh, not for everyone, but they can be very effective for a lot of people.

呃，并不适合所有人，但它们对很多人来说都非常有效。

One of the requisite steps is giving over to a higher power.

必要的步骤之一就是向更高的权力移交。

Yeah, yeah.

是啊是啊。

...

...

in that step, it sort of, uh, spells out that the human brain, one's own brain is not capable of handling it all.

在这一步中，呃，它表明人类的大脑，一个人自己的大脑没有能力处理这一切。

Right?

正确的？

It also, i- it says, "Listen, you're not supposed to be able to do this alone."

它还，我-它说，“听着，你不应该独自完成这件事。”

Yeah.

是的。

"You're not even supposed to be able to do this with a community.

“你甚至不应该能够在社区中做到这一点。

You need something else first.

你首先需要别的东西。

The community is important, but a will to change is important, but you need help.

社区很重要，但改变的意愿也很重要，但你需要帮助。

And the one piece that you can't get away with is trying to do it without some notion of higher power."

而你无法逃脱的一件事就是在没有更高权力概念的情况下试图做到这一点。”

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

And 12 Steps are very careful not to dictate if that should be Christianity, Judaism-

12 步骤非常小心，没有规定那应该是基督教、犹太教——

Right

右

...

...

or Muslim.

或穆斯林。

It's sort of all-encompassing in that way.

就这样而言，它是包罗万象的。

But it can't just be you and your brain-

但这不仅仅是你和你的大脑——

Right

右

...

...

and your, and your will.

和你的，和你的意愿。

Right.

正确的。

And it not, and it's not you, your brain, your will, and your community of other people who are rallying against this, this thing you're trying to overcome.

事实并非如此，也不是你、你的大脑、你的意志以及你的其他人组成的社区正在团结起来反对这个你试图克服的事情。

You have to give yourself, uh, give o- over some degree of power.

你必须赋予自己，呃，赋予某种程度的权力。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Um, this is the Serenity Prayer, right?

嗯，这就是宁静祈祷，对吗？

Like-

就像-

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

you, you're acknowledging what you can't control.

你，你承认你无法控制的事情。

And I find that to be remarkable, right?

我觉得这很了不起，对吧？

Um, some people have accused 12 Step of being a religion or a cult.

嗯，有些人指责 12 Step 是宗教或邪教。

We'll talk about cults in a moment.

我们稍后会讨论邪教。

But I think therein is, uh, like, this acceptance that, like, we're ...

但我认为其中，呃，就像，这种接受，就像，我们......

The, the human brain is amazing-

人类的大脑真是神奇——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

but it can't do all the things that it needs to do on its own.

但它无法独自完成所有需要做的事情。

That, for me, is one of the most convincing reasons to have a belief in God.

对我来说，这是信仰上帝最令人信服的理由之一。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Because I know a thing or two about the brain.

因为我对大脑略知一二。

I certainly don't know everything, and it's really good at a lot of things, and it's really dreadful at a lot of other things.

我当然不知道所有事情，它在很多事情上确实很擅长，但在很多其他事情上它确实很糟糕。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

And it's completely incapable of other things.

而且它完全无能为力做其他事情。

And there are lots of, quote, unquote, "energies" in the universe.

宇宙中有很多，引用或不引用的“能量”。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

I mean, there's energies coming out of the sun that we can't see or perceive that act on us.

我的意思是，有一些来自太阳的能量我们看不到或感知不到，但却作用于我们。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

So this notion that there would be energies in our universe, I know this sounds kind of mystical and woo and New Age, but literally, radioactive energies and energies-

因此，我们的宇宙中存在能量的概念，我知道这听起来有点神秘，令人向往和新时代，但从字面上看，放射性能量和能量-

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

that we can't see but have an impact on us-

我们看不见但对我们有影响的东西——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

that's not just something to debate.

这不只是值得争论的事情。

That's, that's real.

那是，那是真的。

Scientists will agree that's real.

科学家们会同意这是真的。

So

所以

I, I guess for me, the, the leap to God and religion doesn't seem as far-

我，我想对我来说，向上帝和宗教的飞跃似乎并不遥远-

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

anymore.

不再了。

It just seems, like, it's like right there.

看起来，就像，就在那里。

I mean, things that we, you know

我的意思是，我们，你知道的事情

...

...

30 years ago, if someone told you the way quantum mechanics work, you would have thought they were insane.

30 年前，如果有人告诉你量子力学的工作原理，你会认为他们疯了。

And so, um, I think we have to have some intellectual humility that there are forces in this world, as you're saying, that we don't

所以，嗯，我认为我们必须保持一定的理智谦逊，因为这个世界上存在着一些力量，正如你所说，我们没有

have access to yet in terms of our conscious awareness.

就我们的意识而言，还可以访问。

But nonetheless, they can act on us.

但尽管如此，他们仍然可以对我们采取行动。

Your point though, I think, about, um, the 12 Step programs is an interesting one because they, they do work for a lot of people.

不过，我认为，嗯，12 步骤计划的观点很有趣，因为它们确实对很多人有效。

And what the data show about kind of giving over some control, believing in a higher power, is it actually is, uh, useful for avoiding addiction.

数据显示，放弃一些控制权、相信更高的力量，实际上，呃，对于避免成瘾很有用。

So people who are engaged with religious practice have some protection against, uh, addiction.

因此，从事宗教活动的人有一些保护措施，可以防止呃成瘾。

The rates are lower.

费率较低。

Um, but when you

嗯，但是当你

surrender to a higher power, a lot of people resist this, and they think the idea is problematic because they interpret it as meaning you're like an automaton.

屈服于更高的权力，很多人抵制这一点，他们认为这个想法是有问题的，因为他们将其解释为意味着你就像一个机器人。

You're just gonna give over everything-

你只会放弃一切-

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

to God and not be a thoughtful person.

向神祷告，而不是成为一个有思想的人。

That's not what it means for the people who actually do this, right?

对于真正这样做的人来说，这并不是什么意思，对吧？

For the people who surrender to God, what it means is, "I'm going to try and do the best I can, make the best decision I can, live the best way I can, but I realize that I can't control everything, including my own behavior all the time.

对于那些向上帝投降的人来说，这意味着“我会尽力做到最好，做出最好的决定，以最好的方式生活，但我意识到我无法控制一切，包括我自己的行为。

So I'm gonna do the best I can, and then I'm just gonna give it over and hope that God, trust that God will help me." And that does two things.

所以我会尽我所能，然后我就会放弃一切并希望上帝，相信上帝会帮助我。”这有两件事。

One is, again, it, it provides this sense that you have a friend.

再说一遍，它给人一种你有朋友的感觉。

There's someone else who cares about you.

还有一个人在乎你。

You're kind of like a junior partner with this person working toward the goal.

你有点像一个初级合伙人，与这个人一起朝着目标努力。

And that, I'm not exactly sure why, I don't know if any of us knows exactly sh- why it works, but that reduces stress and anxiety a lot, because, I mean, we like to think in this world that we're optimizers, right?

而且，我不太确定为什么，我不知道我们中是否有人确切地知道为什么它有效，但这会大大减少压力和焦虑，因为，我的意思是，我们喜欢认为在这个世界上我们是优化者，对吧？

I'm always like, "I wanna buy this car.

我总是说，“我想买这辆车。

Well, let me research everything about this car so I can make sure I get the exact right car." Or if I'm trying to d- make a decision about my health, I'm gonna research everything I can.

好吧，让我研究一下关于这辆车的一切，这样我就可以确保我得到的是正确的车。”或者，如果我想就我的健康做出决定，我会尽我所能进行研究。

But, you know, at a certain point, the tyranny of choice, too many, too much information can drive us nuts.

但是，你知道，在某种程度上，选择的专制、太多太多的信息会让我们发疯。

And so for you do the best you can but then trust in something else, it reduces that stress, and I think ultimately then makes it easier for you to achieve that goal down the line because you also feel like someone else is counting on you.

因此，对于你来说，尽你所能，然后相信其他事情，这会减轻压力，我认为最终会让你更容易实现这个目标，因为你也会觉得别人在指望你。

I mean,

我的意思是，

I don't go to the gym.

我不去健身房。

I should go to the gym.

我应该去健身房。

You know, the one time in my life when I went to the gym?

你知道吗，我一生中只有一次去健身房？

When I had a workout partner who I know if I didn't go was gonna be like, "Dave, you have to come.

当我有一个健身伙伴时，我知道如果我不去，他会说：“戴夫，你必须来。

I'm counting on you." And so, you know, there's that added element too.

我指望你了。”所以，你知道，还有这个附加元素。

And so I think the idea of surrender doesn't mean you're not thinking intelligently.

所以我认为投降的想法并不意味着你没有明智地思考。

It doesn't mean you're giving over control of your life.

这并不意味着您要放弃对生活的控制。

It means you're accepting a partnership with someone else who's gonna try and help you.

这意味着您正在接受与会尽力帮助您的其他人建立伙伴关系。

And again, not for me to say if that's true or not, but I think that's how it works for people.

再说一次，我不想说这是否正确，但我认为这对人们来说就是这样的。

We've been talking about God and, to some extent, religion.

我们一直在谈论上帝，在某种程度上，还有宗教。

How many

有多少

new religions are there?

有新的宗教吗？

I mean, why don't we see new religions?

我的意思是，为什么我们看不到新的宗教？

I mean, obviously there are subdivisions, right?

我的意思是，显然有细分，对吧？

I know, you know, Mormons, um-

我知道，你知道，摩门教徒，嗯-

Yeah

是啊

...

...

LDS as they're, uh, called.

LDS，呃，他们的称呼。

Um, often, um, you have Orthodox Conservative and Reform Judaism.

嗯，通常，嗯，有正统保守派和改革派犹太教。

You have Catholics and Protestants, and you've got Seventh-day Adventists and ...

有天主教徒和新教徒，还有基督复临安息日会和......

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Forgive me for not, you know, subdividing, um, other religions, but you get the idea.

请原谅我没有，你知道，细分，嗯，其他宗教，但你明白我的意思。

But-

但是——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

how often is there a new subdivision and how often is there an entirely new religion?

多久出现一个新的分支以及多久出现一个全新的宗教？

And since I haven't heard of these new religions, um, how come they don't stick?

既然我没有听说过这些新宗教，嗯，为什么它们不坚持呢？

It's a good question.

这是一个好问题。

In fact, for one episode of my show, we were interested in this because I didn't know the statistics.

事实上，对于我的节目的一集，我们对此很感兴趣，因为我不知道统计数据。

And so we invited on a scholar who studies this, and she kind of shocked me because she said that every year, there's between 100 and 200 new religions that form.

所以我们邀请了一位研究这个问题的学者，她让我有点震惊，因为她说每年都会有 100 到 200 个新宗教形成。

Now, the definition there is a little loose, right?

现在，这个定义有点宽松，对吧？

Some of those religions we would call cults.

其中一些宗教我们称之为邪教。

Some of those religions are, you know ...

你知道，其中一些宗教是......

There's a person in Canada who put a Kleenox- Kleenex box on her head and said she's, you know, getting messages from some alien race.

加拿大有一个人把纸巾盒放在头上，说她正在收到来自某个外星种族的信息。

And-

还有——

Did that happen?

有这样的事发生吗？

Something like that happened.

类似的事情发生了。

I may not have the details exactly right, but yes.

我可能没有完全正确的细节，但是是的。

But most of them, the reason you don't hear about them is because they're flashes in the pan, right?

但大多数，你之所以没有听说过它们，是因为它们只是昙花一现，对吧？

For a religion to stick, there's two ways.

一个宗教要坚持下去，有两种方法。

One is somebody in power, right?

一个是有权力的人，对吗？

You can think about in the old days, the emperor said, "This is my faith.

你可以想一下，在过去，皇帝说：“这是我的信仰。

You all will now be this faith." Um, but in the modern world, that's, that's less.

你们现在都会有这个信仰。”嗯，但在现代世界，那就更少了。

It tends to be the case when they speak to some need.

当他们谈到某些需要时往往会出现这种情况。

Uh, and that is their practices and their ideology address someone in, in, in a new way.

呃，这就是他们的实践和意识形态以一种新的方式向某人讲话。

Hmm.

唔。

Um, the people who are leaving faiths are not becoming atheists.

嗯，放弃信仰的人并没有成为无神论者。

They're looking for new ways to be spiritual.

他们正在寻找新的灵性方式。

Because let's face it, most religious institutions, they're human-based institutions.

因为让我们面对现实吧，大多数宗教机构都是以人为本的机构。

They have moral failures, right?

他们道德上有缺陷，对吧？

And we know that there has been abuse and discrimination and misogyny and all these things attached to faiths.

我们知道，虐待、歧视、厌女症以及所有这些与信仰有关的事情一直存在。

And hopefully we can talk about that 'cause I, I don't want people to think that I'm saying religion is always good.

希望我们可以讨论这个问题，因为我不想让人们认为我在说宗教总是好的。

Although on average I think it is.

虽然平均而言我认为是这样。

Um, it has to speak to you, and those are few and far between.

嗯，它必须对你说话，而这种情况很少见。

Right now, what astounded me is where people are having profound spiritual experiences is at Burning Man.

现在，令我震惊的是，人们在火人节上获得了深刻的精神体验。

So most people think of Burning Man as this kind of debaucherous party in the desert.

所以大多数人认为火人节就是这种沙漠中的放荡派对。

Which for some people it is.

对于某些人来说确实如此。

It is.

这是。

But, uh, this is, uh, work by the neuroscientist Molly Crockett at Princeton.

但是，呃，这是，呃，普林斯顿大学神经科学家 Molly Crockett 的工作。

She went to Burning Man.

她去了火人节。

She was a Burner herself, but, but-

她自己也是燃烧者，但是，但是——

It's coming up soon.

很快就到了。

Are you going?

你要去吗？

Yeah, no. God no. I hate the heat.

是的，不。天哪，不。我讨厌炎热。

Y- do you know that, uh, this year ticket sales are up by a significant amount compared to even a few-

你、你知道吗，呃，今年的门票销量比之前的几个都大幅增长了——

Really?

真的吗？

...

...

even, um, before the pandemic?

甚至，嗯，在大流行之前？

No, it w- it doesn't surprise me that I didn't-

不，它-我并不惊讶我没有-

Yeah.

是的。

A number of friends, um, who have never gone before contacted me in the last week are like, "A- are you going?" I've never been.

一些以前从未去过的朋友在上周联系我时说：“你——你要去吗？”我从来没有去过。

Yeah.

是的。

I mean, I-

我的意思是，我——

Are you gonna go?

你要去吗？

Uh, no. This year I'll be abroad, but, um-

呃，不。今年我会出国，但是，嗯-

Okay.

好的。

Yeah

是啊

...

...

you know, uh, it could happen.

你知道，呃，这可能会发生。

Uh, I'm, I'm somewhat curious.

呃，我，我有点好奇。

Yeah, but-

是的，但是-

N- not this year.

不——今年不行。

What she showed is that there's a segment of people there that report having profound spiritual experiences.

她所展示的是，有一部分人声称拥有深刻的精神体验。

Now, if you think of Burning Man, right, it's, it's, it's one of these what we would call a liminal space, right?

现在，如果你想到火人节，对吧，它就是我们所说的阈限空间之一，对吧？

It is everything that's normal in life doesn't happen there.

生活中一切正常的事情都不会发生在那里。

People go, they take different names.

人们走了，他们有不同的名字。

They wear different clothes.

他们穿着不同的衣服。

You are exposed to an environment that is relatively harsh in the desert.

你暴露在沙漠中相对恶劣的环境中。

And people who have gone tell me the only way that you can really survive is you have to depend on other people.

那些已经离开的人告诉我，你真正能够生存的唯一方法就是你必须依赖别人。

And they have this thing there called the,

他们那里有一个东西叫做，

is it the culture of giving or gifting?

这是给予或送礼的文化吗？

I, I forget the actual name.

我，我忘了真正的名字了。

But there's no money at Burning Man.

但火人节没有钱。

Everything is basically through the kindness of others and exchange.

一切基本上都是通过他人的善意和交换而实现的。

And so people are in this environment where their normal life, their normal clothes, their normal identity is stripped away.

因此，人们处于这样的环境中，他们的正常生活、他们正常的衣服、他们正常的身份都被剥夺了。

They're experiencing the harshness of the elements, of the heat on the playa.

他们正在经历严酷的自然环境和普拉亚的炎热。

And they experience that they can exist there because of the kindness of others.

他们体验到，由于他人的善意，他们能够存在于那里。

And people who interpret it this way, Molly finds, report not only feeling this profound kind of self-transcendent experience, but when they come back, it stays, and they actually tend to be more pro-social.

莫莉发现，以这种方式解释的人不仅感受到了这种深刻的自我超越体验，而且当他们回来时，这种体验仍然存在，而且他们实际上更倾向于亲社会。

And so some religions have realized this now.

所以一些宗教现在已经意识到了这一点。

So a friend of mine named Alex Leitch, who's an Episcopal minister, runs a camp.

我的一位名叫亚历克斯·雷奇（Alex Leitch）的朋友是一位圣公会牧师，他经营着一个营地。

'Cause at Burning Man, there are all these camps.

因为在火人节，有所有这些营地。

And his camp is called Religious AF.

他的阵营叫做宗教AF。

I don't know if I can say that word on the air.

我不知道我是否可以在广播中说出这句话。

Oh yeah.

哦，是的。

Oh yeah.

哦，是的。

Far worse has been said.

更糟糕的是已经说过了。

Yeah.

是的。

Right, right, right.

对，对，对。

Yeah.

是的。

Religious as fuck.

他妈的宗教。

And so-

所以——

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

...

...

and what they are there and is, is, is it's, is it's he's there and he told me the reason he founded this is because when he first started going, he said, "I never

他们在那里，是，是，是，是他在那里，他告诉我他创立这个的原因是因为当他第一次开始去的时候，他说，“我从来没有

felt God as palpably, the presence of God as palpably as I could feel it there." Because there were just people ministering to each other and welcoming each other and being kind to each other in, in a, in a way without expectation.

我能明显地感觉到上帝，上帝的存在就像我在那里能感觉到的那样明显。”因为人们只是以一种出乎意料的方式互相服务、互相欢迎、善待彼此。

And so he runs this camp, and there are a lot of people who used to be Christian who are experiencing this and, and coming to the camp and, and refinding their faith.

所以他经营这个营地，有很多曾经是基督徒的人正在经历这一点，并且来到营地，并且重新找到他们的信仰。

Because in that moment, they're having those transcendent experiences that you normally don't get when you're just sitting in church sometimes.

因为在那一刻，他们拥有了那些你通常坐在教堂里时无法获得的超凡体验。

There's another group.

还有另一组。

I forget the...

我忘记了...

I think it's called Milk and Honey.

我认为它叫牛奶和蜂蜜。

I don't remember.

我不记得了。

But they have a 1,000-person Shabbat for, for Jews there, and it's, it's this incredible experience people report.

但他们为那里的犹太人举办了一个 1,000 人的安息日，这就是人们报道的令人难以置信的经历。

And so I think for a lot of people, they're looking for those spiritual experiences, and things like Burning Man are a way to do it.

所以我认为对于很多人来说，他们正在寻找那些精神体验，而像火人节这样的活动就是一种实现这一目标的方式。

And then they have, what do they call them?

然后他们有，他们怎么称呼他们？

Little Burns or Remote Burns, right?

小烧伤或远程烧伤，对吗？

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Throughout the year, they'll come together at different times and do this.

一年中，他们会在不同的时间聚在一起做这件事。

And so I think what you're seeing is a desire of people to kind of fill that God-shaped hole in, hole in their heart, to feel that.

所以我认为你所看到的是人们渴望填补他们心中那个上帝形状的洞，并感受到这一点。

And for a lot of them, kind of the staid religious rituals that we're kind of getting now aren't doing that.

对于他们中的很多人来说，我们现在所接受的那种古板的宗教仪式并没有做到这一点。

And so I could see something evolving out of that, but who knows where we're going.

所以我可以看到一些东西由此演变，但谁知道我们要去哪里。

Interesting.

有趣的。

Um, you know, The Grateful Dead and people that follow The Grateful Dead came close to meeting some of the major criteria for a, a religion, right?

嗯，你知道，感恩而死乐队和追随感恩而死乐队的人几乎满足了宗教的一些主要标准，对吗？

I, growing up in the South Bay area in the late '70s and '80s and early '90s, I mean, Grateful Dead would come play at Frost Amphitheater.

我在 70 年代末、80 年代和 90 年代初在南湾地区长大，我的意思是，Grateful Dead 会在 Frost Amphitheatre 演出。

They'd play at Shoreline.

他们会在海岸线玩耍。

I mean, yet people literally following them around the country.

我的意思是，全国各地的人们确实在追随他们。

It had elements of...

它有以下元素...

I'm gonna offend some people.

我会得罪一些人。

My sister was, uh, kind of into the...

我姐姐，呃，有点喜欢……

she didn't follow them, but she was a Deadhead.

她没有跟随他们，但她是个死人。

Um, I mean, it had elements of, of cultism or in the sense-

嗯，我的意思是，它有邪教的元素，或者某种意义上——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

that people were, quote unquote, "giving up their lives and going." But then people who did, did that would say, "No, that actually was not giving up life.

人们，毫不夸张地说，“放弃了自己的生命并离开了。”但那些这样做的人会说：“不，那实际上并不是放弃生命。

That was accessing life."

那就是进入生命。”

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

You know, for them.

你知道，对于他们来说。

Yeah.

是的。

And then of course, I have some friends who are colleagues at Stanford who are, who were serious, quote unquote, "Deadheads," but that was only during the summer.

当然，我有一些在斯坦福大学的同事朋友，他们很严肃地引用“无用的东西”，但那只是在夏天。

So they were- ...

所以他们是——...

like part-time, part-timers.

比如兼职，兼职。

Um, y-

嗯，你-

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Kinda like Burning Man, yeah.

有点像火人节，是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Few bands, however, uh, at least in the United States, and they were international, right?

然而，呃，至少在美国很少有乐队，而且他们都是国际性的，对吧？

Um,

嗯，

had that kind of following.

有这样的追随者。

Yeah.

是的。

Um, usually when we hear about followings where the main characters have beards-...

嗯，通常当我们听到主角有胡子的追随者时——......

um, and there's, uh, drugs involved.

嗯，还有，呃，涉及毒品。

Yeah.

是的。

Um, and not every Deadhead was into, super into drugs.

嗯，并不是每个白痴都沉迷于毒品。

I know some that were totally, uh, straight edge, actually.

我知道有些实际上是完全，呃，直截了当的。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Um, and they actually used to have, I should just mention, AA and NA meetings at-

嗯，我应该提一下，他们实际上曾经在——

Okay

好的

...

...

at shows, so people could go who were in recovery.

以便那些正在康复的人可以去演出。

Um, but, you know, cults generally include some, um, like over-symbolized leader.

嗯，但是，你知道，邪教通常包括一些，嗯，比如过度象征性的领袖。

Yeah.

是的。

Like, their face, some, you know, something like the, the, the skull, the like, steel, I think it's called, like, steel your, steel your face.

就像他们的脸，有些，你知道，像头骨之类的东西，钢铁，我想这叫做，钢铁你的，钢铁你的脸。

Is that what that thing is called?

那东西就是这么叫的吗？

And then there's Jerry, who's kind of like the, the main...

然后是杰瑞，他有点像，主要的……

Jerry Garcia was like the, the main one, right?

杰里·加西亚（Jerry Garcia）就像是主要的，对吧？

And then this idea that you would do certain things and not do certain things.

然后这个想法就是你会做某些事情，而不做某些事情。

Yeah, it's elements of a religion.

是的，这是宗教的元素。

Yeah.

是的。

Um, and, but cults, like the ones that we hear about, like the Heaven's Gate cult that thought that they were gonna live forever.

嗯，但是邪教，就像我们听说的那些，比如天堂之门邪教，他们认为自己会永远存在。

They committed mass suicide during the Hale-Bopp comet.

他们在海尔-波普彗星期间集体自杀。

Yeah.

是的。

Hale-Bopp came through and they were all, they, they killed themselves.

海尔-波普挺身而出，他们全部，他们，他们自杀了。

Or the Branch Davidian thing in Waco.

或者韦科的大卫教分支。

You know, you usually have someone who believes they are special.

你知道，通常有人认为自己很特别。

This was not true for the Grateful Dead.

对于“感恩而死”乐队来说，情况并非如此。

You never heard Jerry Garcia saying that-

你从来没听过杰里·加西亚说过这样的话——

Right

右

...

...

he was like the Messiah or something.

他就像弥赛亚什么的。

But with David Koresh and the Branch Davidians, you, y- there, you had that, um, a, a self belief that one is extra special.

但是对于大卫·科雷什和大卫教派来说，你，你——那里，你有一种，嗯，a，一种自我信念，认为自己是特别特别的。

You had people really changing their whole life structure.

人们真正改变了他们的整个生活结构。

And then oftentimes the, you have crime.

然后，常常会发生犯罪。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

You end up with something happening internally where people are being exploited.

最终会在内部发生一些事情，人们被剥削。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

And then that's like obvious cult, or mass suicide, or, um, Jonestown or something like that.

然后这就像明显的邪教，或者大规模自杀，或者，呃，琼斯镇或者类似的东西。

So, you know, the line between cult and new religion is extremely thin.

所以，你知道，邪教和新宗教之间的界限非常薄弱。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Um,

嗯，

so it makes sense to me why not many would break through.

所以对我来说，为什么没有多少人会突破是有道理的。

Um, and so I have this question.

嗯，所以我有这个问题。

Do you think that the existence of Christianity, Judaism, the Muslim faith, and Buddhism kind of tiles what the human brain needs in terms of options?

你认为基督教、犹太教、穆斯林信仰和佛教的存在是否满足了人类大脑在选择方面的需求？

Oh, and atheism and agnosticism.

哦，还有无神论和不可知论。

Like, if you, you take those, it sort of like tiles the various, um, like anxiety states that the brain has, and you go, "You know, we don't really need another one." Right?

就像，如果你，你采取这些，它有点像平铺各种，嗯，就像大脑具有的焦虑状态，然后你说，“你知道，我们真的不需要另一个。”正确的？

Like, all the things are handled.

就像，所有的事情都处理好了。

Grief, birth, enough celebrations each year, enough kind of, um, ideas and flexibility about the afterlife, enough, you know, moral structure internally.

悲伤、出生、每年足够的庆祝活动、足够的、嗯、关于来世的想法和灵活性、足够的、你知道的、内部的道德结构。

Not such a huge time commitment for this one, but, you know, if you're an Orthodox Jew or you're a very serious Buddhist, that's a lot of time.

对于这个来说，投入的时间并不算多，但是，你知道，如果你是一名正统的犹太人，或者你是一名非常认真的佛教徒，那么这就是很多时间。

Yeah.

是的。

That's a lot of investment in ritual and meditating.

这是对仪式和冥想的大量投资。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

But, you know, you can be a, a really like a darn good Christian by going to church on Sunday and-

但是，你知道，你可以通过周日去教堂，成为一个非常好的基督徒，然后——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

praying each day and doing some Bible reading.

每天祈祷并读一些圣经。

Like, you know, that's compatible with, with a bunch of other things.

就像，你知道，这与许多其他事物兼容。

So you don't have to give up your whole life to invest in it.

所以你不必放弃你的一生来投资它。

Yeah.

是的。

You get, see what I'm getting at here?

你明白了，明白我在说什么吗？

Yeah.

是的。

It could be that, that the, that humans as a species have, uh, have figured this out.

人类作为一个物种，呃，可能已经弄清楚了这一点。

And then someone will say, "No, God figured it out," right?

然后有人会说，“不，上帝已经解决了，”对吧？

Yeah.

是的。

That this is what we need, it fills in the gaps.

这就是我们所需要的，它填补了空白。

It seems unlikely that we're gonna get a bunch of other religions.

我们似乎不太可能得到许多其他宗教。

I think so, but, I mean, f- let me talk about the issue of cult versus religion.

我想是的，但是，我的意思是，让我谈谈邪教与宗教的问题。

I think you're absolutely right first.

我认为你首先是绝对正确的。

Cults primarily have the idea of this charismatic leader, which is why you often kind of hear this notion it's a cult of personality.

邪教主要有一个有魅力的领袖的想法，这就是为什么你经常听到这种观念：这是一种个人崇拜。

It's usually somebody who thinks they're special.

通常是一些认为自己很特别的人。

You have to worship that leader.

你必须崇拜那个领袖。

And when somebody thinks they're that special, things often go wrong with, with where they're going to lead people.

当有人认为自己很特别时，他们要带领人们去往的地方往往会出现问题。

Um,

嗯，

regular religions, though, can have the same problems.

然而，普通宗教也可能存在同样的问题。

I mean, the thing I like to say is when you look at religious practices, a way to think about them is as spiritual technologies, right?

我的意思是，我想说的是，当你看待宗教实践时，可以将它们视为精神技术，对吗？

They're technologies, mind-body practices that can move hearts and minds.

它们是可以感动心灵的技术和身心实践。

They can move them for good, they can move them for ill, right?

他们可以让他们做好事，也可以让他们做坏事，对吗？

It depends upon the motives of the people who are using them.

这取决于使用它们的人的动机。

So, you know, people always say, "Dave, religions are the source of all war." Most wars aren't fought about, fought about religion.

所以，你知道，人们总是说，“戴夫，宗教是所有战争的根源。”大多数战争不是因为宗教而发生的。

There are some that are like, "Hey, I disagree with your interpretation of the scripture." Most of them are about land and resources, but religion gets pulled in.

有些人会说，“嘿，我不同意你对经文的解释。”其中大部分与土地和资源有关，但也涉及宗教。

And what we know is that when you are feeling

我们知道，当您感觉

threatened...

威胁...

So, the Bible, as you said, is a book of many voices.

所以，正如你所说，圣经是一本包含多种声音的书。

There are beautiful passages in there about mercy and kindness.

那里有关于仁慈和仁慈的美丽段落。

There are other passages in there about dashing the heads of your enemies' babies against rocks, right?

那里还有其他关于将敌人婴儿的头撞到岩石上的段落，对吧？

To punish them.

来惩罚他们。

And so what we know is that when people feel more threatened, their conception of God, this is work by a psychologist Kirk Gray and Joshua Jackson, their conceptions of God become more aggressive and punitive.

所以我们知道的是，当人们感到更多的威胁时，他们对上帝的看法，这是心理学家柯克·格雷和约书亚·杰克逊的研究，他们对上帝的看法变得更具攻击性和惩罚性。

They believe that God values vengeance more.

他们相信上帝更看重复仇。

And if you ask them to recall verses from the Bible, they're gonna recall the ones that are about smashing the babies' heads as opposed to being kind and, and, and merciful.

如果你让他们回忆《圣经》中的经文，他们会想起那些关于砸碎婴儿头的经文，而不是关于仁慈、仁慈的经文。

And so this is why you can see things like Christian nationalism form, and you can see, if you go to some of these events, you'll see pictures of Jesus holding an AK-47, right?

所以这就是为什么你可以看到诸如基督教民族主义之类的东西的形式，你可以看到，如果你去参加其中一些活动，你会看到耶稣拿着 AK-47 的照片，对吗？

Because our mind, to be adaptive, as if we're not evolved to be saints or sinners, when we feel we're threatened, we want to fight against that.

因为我们的思想具有适应性，就好像我们没有进化成圣人或罪人一样，当我们感到受到威胁时，我们想要与之抗争。

We will use religion to justify it.

我们将用宗教来证明它的合理性。

And so the point that, that I want to make sure all your listeners know is, I'm not saying religion is good, it's a technology that can be used for evil.

因此，我想确保所有听众都知道，我并不是说宗教是好的，它是一种可以用于邪恶的技术。

You know, even Richard Dawkins will say the same thing about science, right?

你知道，即使是理查德·道金斯也会对科学说同样的话，对吧？

You want to find a way to cure people of maladies, science is your friend.

你想找到一种方法来治愈人们的疾病，科学是你的朋友。

You want to find the best way to annihilate a bunch of people most efficiently, science is your friend.

你想找到最有效地消灭一群人的最佳方法，科学是你的朋友。

And so for me, the reason I, I spend this time talking about religion is I know it can be used for bad, but if you look at the data on average in people's lives, yes, certain institutions have caused people to be abused, discriminated against, et cetera, and we should combat those.

所以对我来说，我花时间谈论宗教的原因是我知道它可能被用来做坏事，但如果你看看人们生活中的平均数据，是的，某些机构导致人们受到虐待、歧视等，我们应该与这些行为作斗争。

But on average, whether it's a gift from God or a cultural adaptation, it helps us live better.

但平均而言，无论是上帝的恩赐还是文化适应，它都能帮助我们生活得更好。

For the most part, I agree with you, that is there's a lot of convergence in the practices of the faith 'cause in some ways we're all the same body and brain and it helps us solve those.

在很大程度上，我同意你的观点，那就是信仰的实践有很多趋同之处，因为在某些方面我们的身体和大脑都是相同的，这有助于我们解决这些问题。

Um, and-They're all pretty large a- and have their followings, and they're attached to the culture you're raised in.

嗯，而且-他们都是相当大的-并且有他们的追随者，并且他们依附于你成长的文化。

But I think that times of flux, times have changed, and I kind of sense we're getting in one of this n- one of these now.

但我认为时代在变迁，时代已经改变，我感觉我们现在正在进入其中之一。

I don't mean, like, end times, but I mean things with technology, things with norms, the way that we have been living.

我不是指末日，而是指有技术的事物、有规范的事物、我们一直以来的生活方式。

Our economic practices are changing really rapidly right now, and people are becoming, at the same time, more disillusioned with some of the traditional faith.

我们的经济实践现在正在迅速变化，同时人们对一些传统信仰的幻想也越来越幻灭。

And so for me right now, this seems like a period where there could be a reorientation.

所以现在对我来说，这似乎是一个可以重新定位的时期。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

And the ones that are gonna happen, that are gonna come, are the ones that speak to people.

那些即将发生、即将到来的，是那些与人们交谈的。

You, you mentioned AI.

你，你提到了人工智能。

There have been churches, they haven't stuck yet, but I, I could see this happening, where they're built around an AI.

曾经有过教堂，他们还没有陷入困境，但我，我可以看到这种情况发生，他们是围绕人工智能建造的。

The idea is AI will become so knowledgeable that it will almost basically be an omniscient super intelligence.

这个想法是人工智能将变得如此知识渊博，以至于它几乎基本上成为一个无所不知的超级智能。

Omniscient 'cause it can know everything about you through what you do online, and super intelligence because it can solve problems better than humans can.

全知，因为它可以通过你在网上所做的事情了解你的一切，而超级智能，因为它可以比人类更好地解决问题。

And so there are people who are thinking about churches around AI.

因此，有人正在围绕人工智能思考教会。

Will it stick or not?

会粘还是不会粘？

I don't know.

我不知道。

But to the extent that they...

但在某种程度上，他们...

A new faith can let people feel that presence of God, can solve some of their problems by helping them feel connected to each other, reduce anxiety, reduce stress, it wouldn't surprise me if something else comes now in this kind of moment of flux we're in.

新的信仰可以让人们感受到上帝的存在，可以通过帮助他们感到彼此联系来解决他们的一些问题，减少焦虑，减轻压力，如果在我们所处的这种变化的时刻出现其他事情，我不会感到惊讶。

I don't know if you're aware of this.

我不知道你是否意识到这一点。

Um, most people probably aren't, but, uh, the person who holds the world record for highest IQ-

嗯，大多数人可能不是，但是，呃，保持着最高智商世界纪录的人——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

this has been verified by Guinness.

这已经得到了吉尼斯世界纪录的验证。

I know because they posted the Guinness certificate to their account on X.

我知道，因为他们将吉尼斯证书发布到了他们在 X 上的帐户。

Um, I follow this person out of interest.

嗯，我关注这个人是出于兴趣。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Um, uh, is a self-declared, um, Christian.

嗯，呃，自称是基督徒。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Ver- very much, um, um, aligning their platform as the highest IQ in the world, and, and by a huge margin-

非常-非常，嗯，嗯，将他们的平台定位为世界上智商最高的平台，并且，并且以巨大的优势-

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

uh, I should say, um, with their understanding of the Bible and why Christianity is the, the, the best answer to-

呃，我应该说，嗯，以他们对圣经的理解以及为什么基督教是，最好的答案——

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

...

...

holds the best answers to everything.

拥有一切的最佳答案。

I, I should say I don't align with ev- e- everything they post, and so I-

我，我应该说我不同意他们发布的所有- e- 所有内容，所以我-

Yeah, yeah

是啊是啊

...

...

just wanna be clear about that.

只是想澄清这一点。

But it's very interesting to me, um, that you have people who are using technology, like social media, as a way to platform traditional longstanding religions-

但对我来说非常有趣的是，有人使用社交媒体等技术作为传统长期宗教的平台——

Yeah

是啊

...

...

and merging that with kind of, uh, modern notions of intelligence, right?

并将其与某种，呃，现代的智力概念相结合，对吗？

IQ tests aren't the only, uh, way that we gauge intelligence, of course-

当然，智商测试并不是我们衡量智力的唯一方法——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

but I think most people place enough value on people who have

但我认为大多数人都足够重视拥有这些能力的人

high, extreme IQ to, to, to, um, interpret it a certain way.

高、极端的智商，以，以，嗯，以某种方式解释它。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

I wondered, until I realized this is actually a person, at least to my knowledge, I wondered, like, is this an AI thing?

我想知道，直到我意识到这实际上是一个人，至少据我所知，我想知道，这是人工智能的东西吗？

Yeah.

是的。

And now there's video, so he'll-

现在有视频了，所以他会-

Yeah.

是的。

He's in Korea.

他在韩国。

Yeah.

是的。

He'll, he'll, he speaks English and he'll, he'll talk about this.

他会，他会，他会说英语，他会，他会谈论这个。

No, but you're-

不，但你是——

You know?

你知道吗？

...

...

you're seeing it similar in Silicon Valley right now.

你现在在硅谷也看到了类似的情况。

Like, I think, I think Peter Thiel is embracing Christianity even he-

就像，我认为，我认为彼得泰尔正在拥抱基督教，即使他-

Really?

真的吗？

Yeah, I'm pretty sure.

是的，我很确定。

Oh, okay.

哦好的。

Even Elon Musk who's...

就连埃隆·马斯克也...

I don't think he says he believes in God, but he says Christianity is a force for good in the world.

我不认为他说他相信上帝，但他说基督教是世界上向善的力量。

And-

还有——

I recall him saying there's, there's got to be something there in terms-

我记得他说过，那里一定有一些东西——

Yeah

是啊

...

...

of energy in the universe.

宇宙中的能量。

Yeah.

是的。

And when that question was posed.

当这个问题被提出时。

Yeah, and so I, I think you're seeing this among a lot of tech sophisticates.

是的，所以我想你在很多技术专家中都看到了这一点。

I don't have the good answer to why, but it is...

我没有很好的答案来解释为什么，但它是......

Your, your point is well taken, that is, intelligence...

你、你的观点很好，就是智力……

How religious you are does not correlate with intelligence, right?

你的宗教信仰程度与智力无关，对吗？

There are really brilliant people who embrace the idea that there is a God and there is a creator, and there are some that aren't.

确实有一些才华横溢的人相信有上帝和造物主，但也有一些人不相信。

And I think it's because those people realize, like I was saying before, that

我认为这是因为那些人意识到，就像我之前所说的那样

if you're a person who is really rational and is really intelligent, when you look at the data, there's nothing to refute it.

如果你是一个真正理性、真正聪明的人，当你看数据时，没有什么可以反驳的。

And so again, no one sees evidence of God in the world scientifically, but we also realize we can't rule it out.

再说一遍，没有人以科学的方式在世界上看到上帝存在的证据，但我们也意识到我们不能排除这种可能性。

And when they have

当他们有

whatever their own inner life is, if they feel they have that connection, why reject it?

无论他们自己的内心生活是什么，如果他们觉得自己有这种联系，为什么要拒绝它呢？

And so I, I, I think it's important to realize that it's not a marker of poor intelligence.

所以我，我，我认为重要的是要认识到这并不是智力低下的标志。

Unless, uh, there's something I'm not aware of, the person holding the, uh, Guinness-confirmed highest IQ in the world is certainly highly religious.

除非，呃，有什么我不知道的事情，那个拥有，呃，吉尼斯确认的世界上最高智商的人肯定是高度虔诚的。

Yes.

是的。

Um, uh, so we know the, uh, the boxes are checked, uh, probably all-

嗯，呃，所以我们知道，呃，这些框都被选中了，呃，可能都是——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

all up and down.

全部上下。

There are probably atheists that have very low intelligence and atheists with very high intelligence-

可能有智力很低的无神论者和智力很高的无神论者——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

and Christians and Jews and Muslims and the, and the Buddhists, and the, and the whole business.

基督徒、犹太人、穆斯林、佛教徒、以及整个事情。

I think one of the reasons why certain religions get tacked with, um, stereotypes, um, are the, the kind of avatars that we see in our mind when we think about that religion.

我认为某些宗教受到刻板印象的原因之一是，当我们想到该宗教时，我们在脑海中看到的那种化身。

So for instance, um, Buddhism, you think about the Dalai Lama.

例如，嗯，佛教，你会想到达赖喇嘛。

The Dalai Lama seems, um, like what most people think about the Dalai Lama...

达赖喇嘛似乎，嗯，就像大多数人对达赖喇嘛的看法......

Um, well, prior to this recent kind of controversy, I thought the Dalai Lama is just kind of like a, just a happy-

嗯，好吧，在最近的这种争议之前，我认为达赖喇嘛只是有点像，只是一个快乐的-

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

just happy, all-

就是幸福，一切——

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

...

...

ev- good with everything, right?

ev- 一切都很好，对吧？

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

The, um, even the, the, um, style of clothing is very kind of, um, generic across monks.

嗯,甚至这个,这个,这个,僧侣的服装风格,非常,嗯,通用。

When the Dalai Lama's walking around, like, you know, all in these orange robes and they look pretty, pretty peaceful and happy and-

当达赖喇嘛四处走动时，就像，你知道，都穿着这些橙色长袍，他们看起来很漂亮，非常平静和快乐，而且-

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

um, so people, I think, assume that, okay, well, um,

嗯，所以我认为人们会假设，好吧，嗯，

if you wanna feel like that, Buddhism would be a good idea.

如果你想有这样的感觉，佛教将是一个好主意。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Right?

正确的？

Um, whereas other religions tend to, uh, have a bit more of a outw- their brand is a bit more varied in terms of the emotional tone.

嗯，而其他宗教往往，呃，有更多的outw-他们的品牌在情感基调方面更加多样化。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

As you may...

正如你可能...

We talked about Christianity.

我们谈论了基督教。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Certainly Old Testament, New Testament.

当然是旧约、新约。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

What do you think about the branding of religions?

您对宗教品牌有何看法？

Because I feel like it's one of the most important factors that either draws people toward or away from a religion.

因为我觉得这是吸引人们接近或远离宗教的最重要因素之一。

Yeah.

是的。

Whether or not the person is speaking words of love, universal love, love only for if you join in, acceptance, forgiveness-

无论这个人是否在说爱的话，博爱，只有你加入的爱，接受，宽恕——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

um, condemning.

嗯，谴责。

I mean, these are the, the things that people resonate with-

我的意思是，这些是人们产生共鸣的东西——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

or that serve as separators, and I think, um...They're also the things that make us look at some people and go, "That person freaking crazy."

或者充当分隔符，我想，嗯……它们也是让我们看到某些人时会说“那个人疯了”的东西。

Yeah.

是的。

Like- like, I mean, you didn't really have to see David Koresh speak for more than a second.

就像——就像，我的意思是，你实际上不需要看到大卫·科雷什讲话超过一秒钟。

You didn't-

你没有-

Yeah

是啊

...

...

even have to know about all the criminal stuff going on.

甚至必须了解所有正在发生的犯罪事件。

He had the crazy eyes, yeah.

他有一双疯狂的眼睛，是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Like, the guy's crazy.

就像，这家伙疯了。

Yeah.

是的。

Right?

正确的？

And he- and his glasses made him look like Jeffrey Dahmer also.

他——还有他的眼镜让他看起来也像杰弗里·达默。

And, like, they're...

而且，就像，他们...

I don't know what's up with those glasses, but, um, you know, like, this guy's, like, eerie.

我不知道那些眼镜是怎么回事，但是，嗯，你知道，就像，这个家伙，就像，怪异的。

Yeah.

是的。

You wouldn't, uh, you wouldn't let him near anyone you care about.

你不会，呃，你不会让他靠近任何你关心的人。

So, there- there's this kind of branding issue that I think is important, um, at least to discuss, because I think when people hear religion, their mind y- goes to that.

所以，我认为这种品牌问题很重要，嗯，至少要讨论一下，因为我认为当人们听到宗教时，他们的注意力就会转向那个。

Yeah.

是的。

They're not thinking about the- the practices necessarily.

他们不一定会考虑实践。

They're thinking about the brand.

他们正在考虑品牌。

Yeah, I mean, if- if you're not familiar with a religion, same as if you're not familiar with a product, what's gonna drive you is the stereotype of the brand.

是的，我的意思是，如果——如果你不熟悉宗教，就像你不熟悉产品一样，驱动你的是品牌的刻板印象。

But I think the more you look, you realize that those are problematic, um, for good or for ill.

但我认为你看得越多，你就会意识到这些都是有问题的，嗯，无论好坏。

So, you know, you raised the point about the Dalai Lama, and, you know, my original reaction when I first saw it was exactly the same as yours.

所以，你知道，你提出了关于达赖喇嘛的观点，你知道，我第一次看到它时的原始反应和你的完全一样。

But, you know, even Buddhism, uh, a religion that is built on the idea of loving kindness and ending suffering, you know, in Sri Lanka right now is being used to justify kind of a genocide against certain groups, and the monks themselves are taking up arms, right?

但是，你知道，即使是佛教，呃，一种建立在慈爱和结束痛苦理念之上的宗教，你知道，在斯里兰卡，现在也被用来为针对某些群体的种族灭绝辩护，而僧侣们自己也拿起了武器，对吗？

And that...

还有那个...

People are shocked when they hear that because any religion can do that.

人们听到这个消息时感到震惊，因为任何宗教都可以做到这一点。

So, the- the danger in religion is always that by increasing community for those who are part of your religion, you can be increasing the distance against those who aren't part of your religion, which is why at heart, the true message of religion is not to make it us versus them.

因此，宗教的危险始终在于，通过为那些属于你的宗教的人增加社区，你可能会增加与那些不属于你的宗教的人的距离，这就是为什么从本质上讲，宗教的真正信息不是让我们与他们对抗。

It's to increase the moral circle of concern, such that it includes everybody.

这是为了扩大道德关注圈，使其包括每个人。

You know, the Bible talks about you should honor your father and your mother and be good to your family, but more than that, if you're counting the number of times it says who to be good to, it says, "Be good to the stranger.

你知道，圣经说你应该孝敬你的父母，善待你的家人，但更重要的是，如果你数一下它说要善待谁的次数，它说：“善待陌生人。

Be good to the stranger in your land." And then so it's expanding that moral circle, but my point is that, you know, people now say, "Oh, look at the Christian nationalists.

善待你土地上的陌生人。”然后它就扩大了道德圈，但我的观点是，你知道，人们现在说，“哦，看看基督教民族主义者。

I would never wanna be any part of that," right?

我永远不想成为其中的一部分，”对吗？

It's all, if you're a person on the left, it's all people who are conservative and looking to control people's lives.

就是这样，如果你是左翼人士，那么所有的人都是保守派并希望控制人们的生活。

And so the branding is a big problem, but it, I think, obscures the complexities that are going on in different faiths.

因此，品牌是一个大问题，但我认为，它掩盖了不同信仰中正在发生的复杂性。

But you're right.

但你是对的。

That's gonna be the thing that's gonna draw you or repulse you, even if it's not accurate.

这将是吸引你或排斥你的东西，即使它不准确。

We know from medicine that the more similar that your doctor, uh, looks to you and the people you know, the more likely you're going to take their advice.

我们从医学中知道，你的医生，呃，与你和你认识的人越相似，你就越有可能接受他们的建议。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Um, I think similarly, the- the more different the- the dress of a- of a religious figure, uh, the more different their haircut, the more different they speak, the less likely you are to, you know, join up with them.

嗯，我同样认为，一个宗教人物的着装越不同，他们的发型越不同，他们的说话越不同，你就越不可能，你知道，加入他们。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

It feels f- far away.

感觉很遥远。

And so it's going to be interesting to see in the years to come how people gravitate toward or repelled by religion in general or specific religions, given that now pretty much everything is visible to everybody, right?

因此，考虑到现在几乎所有东西都对每个人来说都是可见的，在未来的几年里，看到人们如何倾向于或排斥一般宗教或特定宗教，将会很有趣，对吗？

You know, it's- it's not sufficient for somebody to- to just post things in texts.

你知道，仅仅以短信形式发布内容是不够的。

Y- They have to actually speak in video, I believe.

Y-我相信他们必须在视频中实际讲话。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Um, you have to see them.

嗯，你必须见见他们。

You have to kind of like...

你必须有点像...

Uh, and so, um, we used to talk about scripture, right?

呃，所以，嗯，我们过去常谈论圣经，对吗？

But now religious figures are we expect to see them directly.

但现在我们期望能直接见到宗教人物。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Um, and I think there's going to be less shrouding and less separation, and it'll be really interesting to see if people, um, are, uh, drawn to or repelled from people.

嗯，我认为笼罩和分离将会减少，而且看看人们，嗯，是，呃，被人们吸引还是排斥，这真的很有趣。

I don't know what to predict.

我不知道该预测什么。

I don't know either, because you could think about it as

我也不知道，因为你可以把它想象成

they're making themselves more accessible to the public and to the masses.

他们正在让自己更容易被公众和大众所接近。

But again, there was something also sometimes when they held themselves as separate, as- as- as more holy, more knowledgeable, more someone not like me who- who knows more than I do, who I can trust.

但同样，有时当他们认为自己是独立的、更神圣、更有知识、更不像我的人、比我知道更多、我可以信任的人时，也会有一些东西。

So, it's- it's a good point.

所以，这是一个很好的观点。

Um, I'm not sure which way it's gonna go.

嗯，我不确定它会走哪条路。

Yeah.

是的。

There's something very true about the time we're living in now, which is very different than just 20 years ago.

我们现在生活的时代与 20 年前有很大不同，这是非常真实的。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Which is now, the more famous you are, the harder it is for you to control your reputation.

现在，你越出名，你就越难控制自己的声誉。

That's true.

这是真的。

Because the real you has to be visible, and any flaws are also going to be, uh, visible at some point.

因为真实的你必须是可见的，任何缺陷在某些时候也会是可见的。

Um, whereas 20 years ago, the more famous you were, the easier it was to maintain your reputation.

嗯,而在20年前,你越有名,你的声誉就越容易维持。

People could really shroud themselves.

人们真的可以把自己隐藏起来。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

And, um, they could create mystique.

而且，嗯，他们可以创造神秘感。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Um, and this is true in every area, not just in terms of celebrity and fame.

嗯，这在每个领域都是如此，不仅仅是在名人和名气方面。

This is true for politicians.

对于政客来说也是如此。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Um, this is true, I think, for religious figures.

嗯，我认为对于宗教人物来说确实如此。

Uh, even my friends from the, you know, um, special operations community have said, you know, a lot of the mystique that- that empowered them to do really difficult things, um, a lot...

呃，甚至我来自特种作战界的朋友也说过，你知道，很多神秘的东西使他们能够做非常困难的事情，嗯，很多......

You know, movies have been made about their community in ways that has been, um, semi-destructive, actually, to certain aspects of the work they needed to do.

你知道，关于他们的社区的电影的制作方式实际上对他们需要做的工作的某些方面来说是半破坏性的。

And so I see a lot of parallels here.

所以我在这里看到了很多相似之处。

And so it's going to be interesting if we start to embrace that some of these religious figures also are gonna be flawed, right?

因此，如果我们开始承认其中一些宗教人物也会有缺陷，那将会很有趣，对吧？

I mean, the Catholic Church, you know, had the veil pulled back on a- a subset of Catholics.

我的意思是，天主教会，你知道，揭开了天主教徒的面纱。

Certainly wasn't all, but a subset of the, uh, people in the Catholic Church doing horrible things.

当然不是全部，而是天主教会中做可怕事情的人的一部分。

Yeah.

是的。

Um, but there's still a lot of Catholics in the world.

嗯，但是世界上仍然有很多天主教徒。

Yeah.

是的。

Right?

正确的？

People who understand, uh, Catholicism were able to say, "That's not what Catholicism is about."

理解天主教的人能够说：“这不是天主教的意义所在。”

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

"In fact, we're about the exact opposite," and were able to, I think in- in...

“事实上，我们的情况恰恰相反”，并且能够，我认为......

By now, they've reasonably dissociated themselves from that, right?

到目前为止，他们已经合理地与此划清界限了，对吗？

Yeah.

是的。

I mean, there still are ongoing debates, and what will happen now is you'll- you'll have people who are coming up for higher positions within the church, and it'll look back and show where they...

我的意思是，仍然存在持续的辩论，现在会发生的是，你会-你会有一些人在教会内担任更高的职位，它会回顾并显示他们在哪里......

Even though they didn't do anything, they were covering things up.

虽然他们什么也没做，但他们却在掩盖事情。

So, the echoes of that go on.

所以，这样的回响仍在继续。

But, you know, the point you raise is- is a good one.

但是，你知道，你提出的观点是一个很好的观点。

I think it's going to hit certain religions more than others.

我认为这对某些宗教的打击会比其他宗教更大。

So, there are certain religions where it's really important to have an intermediary, like in Catholicism, right?

所以，在某些宗教中，有一个中介非常重要，比如天主教，对吗？

For you to get certain sacraments-The priest is the mediator, right, because the priest does this transubstantiation, allows the- the- the bread and wine to be turned into the body- body and blood of Christ that you then receive.

对于你来说，要获得某些圣礼，牧师是中保，对吧，因为牧师进行了这种变质，让面包和酒变成了你随后接受的基督的身体和血。

Um, in many other religions, the role of the minister or priest or reverend isn't as important, right?

嗯，在许多其他宗教中，牧师、牧师或牧师的角色并不那么重要，对吧？

There's direct experience.

有直接的经验。

I can experience God directly in my prayers or through my practices.

我可以在祈祷或实践中直接体验上帝。

And so, I think a lot will depend on

所以，我认为很大程度上取决于

whether you need that mediator or not.

无论您是否需要该调解员。

And I think there is this push among some people to want that direct experience, to not be

我认为有些人想要那种直接的体验，而不是被

hindered or have the baggage of the institution upon them.

受到阻碍或承受机构的包袱。

Couple of questions for you-

有几个问题想问你——

Hmm

嗯

...

...

uh, if- if you're willing.

呃，如果——如果你愿意的话。

Um, do you pray?

嗯，你祈祷吗？

I'm one of those people who prays

我是那些祈祷的人之一

at times

有时

where I'm feeling the stress.

我感到压力的地方。

So, prayer is not a practice of mine.

所以，祈祷不是我的习惯。

I always feel like when I say this, I'm like the doctor who smokes cigarettes, right?

我总觉得我说这句话的时候，我就像那个抽烟的医生，对吧？

It's like, "David, you tell people prayer is good." Um, I'm still kind of working out my belief system.

就像，“大卫，你告诉人们祈祷是好的。”嗯，我还在摸索我的信仰体系。

You know, the- the show I do, How God Works, is really as much of a journey for me as it is for everybody else.

你知道，我做的节目《上帝如何运作》对我和其他人来说都是一段旅程。

And so, I- I believe in the data.

所以，我-我相信数据。

I believe this stuff is good.

我相信这个东西是好的。

I was raised Catholic.

我从小信奉天主教。

I was an altar boy.

我是一名祭坛男孩。

I left the Church.

我离开了教堂。

Where I am now, I'm trying to figure it out.

我现在在哪里，我正在努力弄清楚。

But what I try to do is embrace practices that I think matter.

但我尝试做的是拥抱我认为重要的实践。

So, I embraced this practice of gratitude, right?

所以，我接受了这种感恩的做法，对吧？

Rather than praying every day to get it, I find ways to cultivate it daily and see how it changes me.

我没有每天祈祷得到它，而是找到每天培养它的方法，看看它如何改变我。

Um, I try to meditate.

嗯，我尝试冥想。

Am I good at it?

我擅长吗？

No. Do I think it's beneficial to me?

不，我认为这对我有好处吗？

Yes.

是的。

And so, I'm trying to figure out which spiritual community, if any, I fit in.

因此，我试图弄清楚我适合哪个精神社区（如果有的话）。

I like to say I'm an agnostic.

我喜欢说我是一个不可知论者。

You know, 20 years ago, I would have been an atheist.

你知道，如果是 20 年前，我会是一个无神论者。

Now, I realize, I'm humble enough to say, "I don't know." I've seen or felt things that I can't explain.

现在，我意识到，我足够谦虚地说：“我不知道。”我看到或感受到了一些我无法解释的事情。

Does that tell me anything?

这能告诉我什么吗？

I don't know.

我不知道。

But I'm on this journey to- to find out, and I hope, you know, I take my listeners with me on that journey.

但我踏上这段旅程是为了找出答案，我希望，你知道，我能带着我的听众一起踏上这段旅程。

Do you believe in miracles?

你相信奇迹吗？

Depends how you define miracles.

取决于你如何定义奇迹。

I believe that there are things that happen that we cannot explain.

我相信有些事情的发生是我们无法解释的。

And being an agnostic, I'm willing to say that those could be due to some unseen force, I just don't know.

作为一个不可知论者，我愿意说这些可能是由于某种看不见的力量造成的，我只是不知道。

But I believe there are

但我相信有

things that happen beyond our understanding and beyond our ability to predict.

发生的事情超出了我们的理解和预测能力。

Well, in addition to your book, um, and your podcast, um, if somebody is interested in exploring these questions, they want to live in the question, which it sounds like you're doing, right?

好吧，除了你的书，嗯，还有你的播客，嗯，如果有人有兴趣探索这些问题，他们想生活在这个问题中，这听起来像是你正在做的，对吧？

Yeah.

是的。

You're living, very much so, living in the question, um,

你生活在，非常生活在这个问题中，嗯，

of, is there a God?

的，有上帝吗？

What- what role does God play, um, in one's life, et cetera.

上帝在一个人的生活中扮演什么角色，等等。

If somebody's interested in exploring those questions, in addition to reading your book and listening to your podcast, which they definitely should do 'cause I think it provides a really, um, elegant framework for how to approach these things, um, what else do you recommend?

如果有人有兴趣探索这些问题，除了阅读你的书和听你的播客之外，他们绝对应该这样做，因为我认为它为如何处理这些事情提供了一个真正的，嗯，优雅的框架，嗯，你还有什么建议？

Um, y- you know, you are in a position to make recommendations, um, understanding that people will make their choices, uh, either way.

嗯，你知道，你可以提出建议，嗯，理解人们会做出他们的选择，呃，无论哪种方式。

Yeah.

是的。

I mean, so- so, let me take off my scientist hat for one moment and- and just talk to you as me and what I believe.

我的意思是，马马虎虎，让我暂时摘下我的科学家帽子，然后以我的身份和我的信仰与你交谈。

Um,

嗯，

if there is a God, I believe that it's a God who would care for all of God's creatures, that there wouldn't be one religion that is right.

如果有一位上帝，我相信他会照顾所有受造物，那么就不会有任何一种宗教是正确的。

And what I've seen in enough different faiths, the ones that- that have lasted a while and, um, meet people's needs, is that they provide ways to live better lives.

我在足够多的不同信仰中看到，那些已经持续了一段时间并且满足人们需求的信仰是，它们提供了过上更好生活的方法。

And so, I would say, try on different ones.

所以，我想说，尝试不同的。

See what resonates with you.

看看什么能引起您的共鸣。

I mean, people convert, people leave, and I think really, there are multiple routes to God if God exists, and there are multiple ways to use His wisdom to improve your life if God doesn't exist.

我的意思是，人们皈依，人们离开，我真的认为，如果上帝存在，就有多种通往上帝的途径；如果上帝不存在，有多种方法可以利用他的智慧来改善你的生活。

And it's okay to sample.

并且可以取样。

It's okay to try.

尝试一下就可以了。

It's okay to ask your questions.

可以问你的问题。

But what I want to urge them to do is, please don't just assume that there's no rational reason to think about religion.

但我想敦促他们做的是，请不要仅仅假设没有合理的理由来思考宗教。

And the best piece of advice I can give you is- is- is advice that a wise rabbi once told me.

我能给你的最好的建议是——是——是一位明智的拉比曾经告诉我的建议。

And the Hebrew, I'm not gonna pronounce it correctly, but the Hebrew saying is- is, uh, "Naish v'Nishma." And that basically means, "We will do and then we will understand." And this comes from when Moses, in the Book of Exodus, was coming down from the mountain with The Ten Commandments, and he was teaching the Israelites about it.

至于希伯来语，我不会正确发音，但希伯来语的说法是，呃，“Naish v'Nishma”。这基本上意味着，“我们会做，然后我们就会理解。”这是出埃及记中摩西带着十诫下山时教导以色列人的事。

And they're like, "What?

他们就像，“什么？

I don't quite understand this.

我不太明白这一点。

But okay, I'm gonna do it." And sometimes, it's in the doing of the practice, that the understanding comes later of why it's important or how it can help you.

不过好吧，我会这么做的。”有时，在练习过程中，你会逐渐理解为什么它很重要或者它如何帮助你。

If you have to work out all of the logic first, it can be an impediment.

如果您必须首先弄清楚所有逻辑，这可能会成为障碍。

And so, try.

所以，尝试一下。

Thank you.

谢谢。

I appreciate that, and I know everyone will appreciate hearing that.

我对此表示赞赏，并且我知道每个人都会很高兴听到这一点。

I want to thank you for the work that you're doing in your laboratory-

我要感谢你在实验室所做的工作-

Oh

哦

...

...

and teaching, um, and the fact that you're writing books about hard topics.

以及教学，嗯，事实上你正在写一些关于困难话题的书。

And that you're coming to those hard topics, you know, uh, you have tremendous support out there, of course, um, but, you know, it's a bold thing for a scientist, um-

你要讨论这些困难的话题，你知道，呃，你当然得到了巨大的支持，嗯，但是，你知道，这对于科学家来说是一件大胆的事情，嗯-

Don't do it before tenure.

在任职之前不要这样做。

That's the thing That I am, yeah.

这就是我，是的。

Yeah, that's what I said about starting a podcast.

是的，这就是我所说的关于开始播客的内容。

Yeah.

是的。

And that you're taking the time to come here today, to teach and to educate.

你们今天抽出时间来到这里，进行教学和教育。

You have your own podcast and your book.

您有自己的播客和书。

We'll provide links to those in the show note captions, obviously.

显然，我们将提供节目注释标题中的链接。

And, um, I'm a huge fan of your work.

而且，嗯，我非常喜欢你的作品。

Today's conversation really reinforced for me a number of things.

今天的谈话确实让我更加明白了很多事情。

Um, one, how important it is to live it in these very important questions, regardless of where one lands or happens to be, regardless of what religion you were raised with or lack thereof.

嗯，一，生活在这些非常重要的问题中是多么重要，无论一个人落在哪里或碰巧在哪里，无论你从小信仰什么宗教或不信仰什么宗教。

And also, that, you know, there are a lot of questions that bind humans-

而且，你知道，有很多问题束缚着人类——

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

um, and a lot of them are scary, like...And what happens after I die?

嗯，其中很多都很可怕，比如……我死后会发生什么？

You know, what, um...

你知道，什么，嗯...

What's the meaning of all this?

这一切有什么意义呢？

Um, you know, is there a God?

嗯，你知道，有上帝吗？

Those, those sorts of things.

那些，诸如此类的事情。

And, I, I feel like you're providing a very useful roadmap for people to continue to ask those questions without telling them what to believe, certainly-

而且，我，我觉得你为人们提供了一个非常有用的路线图，让他们继续问这些问题，而不告诉他们该相信什么，当然-

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

...

...

nor who to believe, nor, um, if what they're hearing out there is correct or not.

也不知道该相信谁，也不知道他们听到的消息是否正确。

But you're, you're giving people a roadmap for how to pose really good questions.

但你正在为人们提供如何提出真正好问题的路线图。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

And I think the fact that, um, the data clearly show that there's benefit to practices...

我认为事实是，嗯，数据清楚地表明实践是有好处的......

We keep coming back to this, uh, as you just did, with the practices, and in the doing, there's a lot of information.

我们不断回到这个问题，呃，就像你刚才所做的那样，在实践中，在做的过程中，有很多信息。

Um, I, I hear a tacit message also that, you know, one shouldn't be worried that you're gonna, like, get swept down the, the, um, the path of, of lack of self-control.

嗯，我，我还听到一条心照不宣的信息，你知道，人们不应该担心你会陷入缺乏自制力的道路。

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

It's, it's actually about having more agency, um, in, as one asks these questions.

事实上，当人们提出这些问题时，它实际上是关于拥有更多的代理权。

So, thank you for doing the work you do at every level.

所以，感谢您在各个层面所做的工作。

You work at so many different levels, um, to explore these ideas and to educate people.

你在很多不同的层面上工作，嗯，探索这些想法并教育人们。

Certainly, I've learned a ton today, and I know our listeners have too, so...

当然，我今天学到了很多东西，我知道我们的听众也学到了很多东西，所以......

Well, thank you for having me on.

嗯，谢谢你邀请我参加。

I, I appreciate the opportunity.

我，我很珍惜这个机会。

Oh, thank you.

哦，谢谢。

We'll come back again.

我们会再回来的。

Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. David DeSteno.

感谢您参加今天与 David DeSteno 博士的讨论。

To find links to his research, as well as to learn more about his books, including his most recent one entitled How God Works: The Science Behind the Benefits of Religion, please see the show note captions.

要查找他的研究的链接，以及了解有关他的书籍的更多信息，包括他最近出版的一本题为《上帝如何运作：宗教益处背后的科学》的书，请参阅节目注释标题。

If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.

如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。

That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.

这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。

In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the Follow button on both Spotify and Apple.

此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的“关注”按钮来关注播客。

And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review, and you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.

在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您可以给我们留下五星级的评论，现在您可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。

Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.

另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。

That's the best way to support this podcast.

这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。

If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast, or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab Podcast, please put those in the comment section on YouTube.

如果您对我有疑问或对播客有意见，或者您希望我在胡伯曼实验室播客中考虑嘉宾或主题，请将这些内容放在 YouTube 的评论部分。

I do read all the comments.

我确实阅读了所有评论。

For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.

对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。

It's my very first book.

这是我的第一本书。

It's entitled Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body.

它的标题是《协议：人体操作手册》。

This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.

这本书是我花了五年多时间编写的，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验。

And it covers protocols for everything from sleep, to exercise, to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation.

它涵盖了从睡眠、锻炼、压力控制、与注意力和动机相关的各个方面的协议。

And of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.

当然，我还为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。

The book is now available by pre-sale at protocolsbook.com.

该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。

There, you can find links to various vendors.

在那里，您可以找到各个供应商的链接。

You can pick the one that you like best.

您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。

Again, the book is called Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body.

同样，这本书的名字是《协议：人体操作手册》。

And if you're not already following me on social media, I am hubermanlab on all social media platforms.

如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 hubermanlab。

So, that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.

这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。

And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab Podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab Podcast.

在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。

Again, it's hubermanlab on all social media platforms.

再说一遍，所有社交媒体平台上都是 hubermanlab。

And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.

如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。

We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.

我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。

All of that is available, completely zero cost.

所有这些都是可用的，完全零成本。

You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter, and enter your email.

您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的“菜单”选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件即可。

And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.

我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。

Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. David DeSteno.

再次感谢您参加今天与 David DeSteno 博士的讨论。

And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.

最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。

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