Robert Greene: A Process for Finding & Achieving Your Unique Purpose
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Robert Greene.
今天我的客人是罗伯特·格林。
Robert Greene is an author who has written more than five best-selling books, including "The 48 Laws of Power," "The Laws of Human Nature," and "Mastery." He did his bachelor's training at the University of California, Berkeley, and the University of Wisconsin at Madison.
罗伯特·格林是一位作家，写过五本以上的畅销书，包括《权力的 48 条法则》、《人性法则》和《掌握》。他在加州大学伯克利分校和威斯康星大学麦迪逊分校完成了学士学位。
Robert Greene's books are both unique and important for several reasons, not the least of which is that they explore the interaction between the psychology of self, self-exploration, and the psychology of human interaction, all rooted in history and modern culture, and at the same time, in a way that pertains to everybody.
罗伯特·格林的书既独特又重要，有几个原因，其中最重要的是它们探索了自我心理学、自我探索和人类互动心理学之间的相互作用，所有这些都植根于历史和现代文化，同时以一种适合每个人的方式。
I first learned about Robert's work from reading the book, "Mastery," which to my mind is a brilliant exploration and a practical tool for how to think about and pursue one's purpose.
我第一次了解罗伯特的作品是通过阅读《精通》一书，在我看来，这是一次精彩的探索，也是如何思考和追求个人目标的实用工具。
Whenever I'm asked for book suggestions, I always include "Mastery" in my top three recommendations.
每当我被要求推荐书籍时，我总是将《精通》列入我的前三名推荐中。
During today's discussion, we cover a wide range of topics, including how to find and pursue and achieve one's purpose.
在今天的讨论中，我们涵盖了广泛的主题，包括如何寻找、追求和实现自己的目标。
We talk about the selection of a life partner, as well as romantic and other types of relationships.
我们谈论生活伴侣的选择，以及浪漫和其他类型的关系。
We also discuss the topics of motivation and urgency, and this concept of death ground, which arose during our discussion of Robert's recent stroke.
我们还讨论了动机和紧迫性的话题，以及死亡之地的概念，这是在我们讨论罗伯特最近中风时出现的。
Robert's stroke rendered him certain limitations, but also has allowed him to explore how to write, how to exercise, indeed how to interface with life in general in new ways that allow him to continue to expand his sense of purpose.
罗伯特的中风使他受到了一定的限制，但也让他能够探索如何写作、如何锻炼，甚至如何以新的方式与生活接触，从而使他能够继续扩大他的目标感。
I'm certain that by the end of today's episode, you will have gleaned tremendous amounts of new knowledge that will allow you to navigate forward along the path to your purpose, perhaps find your purpose if you feel you haven't done that yet, as well as to greatly enhance your relationship with yourself, with others, and indeed to the world around you.
我确信，在今天的节目结束时，您将收集到大量新知识，这些知识将使您能够沿着实现目标的道路前进，如果您觉得自己还没有找到目标，也许可以找到自己的目标，并大大增强您与自己、与他人、甚至与周围世界的关系。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Robert Greene.
现在我与罗伯特·格林进行讨论。
Robert, I'm so happy you're here.
罗伯特，我很高兴你在这里。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
I'm really happy to be here, Andrew.
我真的很高兴来到这里，安德鲁。
Thank you so much for inviting me.
非常感谢你邀请我。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A short story.
一个短篇故事。
In 2015, I was teaching a course to undergraduates.
2015年，我正在给本科生讲授一门课程。
This was a big course, 450 students.
这是一门很大的课程，有 450 名学生。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Where was this?
这是哪里？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This was when I was a professor at University of California, San Diego.
那是我在加州大学圣地亚哥分校担任教授的时候。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I was about to move back to Stanford.
我正要搬回斯坦福大学。
But the course was entitled Neural Circuits in Health and Disease, but there was a final lecture where I would do a lot of Q&A with the students about science, about careers, about career paths, and what I found was that many of the students had questions about not just science, but about how to learn and forage for information.
但这门课程的标题是“健康与疾病中的神经回路”，但在最后一堂课中，我会与学生们进行大量有关科学、职业、职业道路的问答，我发现许多学生不仅对科学有疑问，还对如何学习和寻找信息有疑问。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I recommended three books at the end of the course, every year that I taught it.
每年我教授这门课程时，我都会在课程结束时推荐三本书。
I taught it for four years.
我教了四年。
And one of the books was the book, "Longitude," which is a wonderful story about the discovery of timekeeping devices at sea.
其中一本书是《经度》，这是一个关于在海上发现计时装置的精彩故事。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One book I'll leave as a mystery, not to be mysterious, but because it's a science book.
我将把一本书当作一个谜，不是为了神秘，而是因为它是一本科学书。
I'll just tell you what it is.
我只是告诉你它是什么。
It's "Principles of Neuroscience." So I thought that they should-
这是“神经科学原理”。所以我认为他们应该——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
I don't know that one.
我不认识那个人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, it's a big...
是的，这是一个大...
It makes a better doorstop-
它是一个更好的门挡-
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for most than a book, but it's a wonderful resource if you want to learn about neuroscience.
对于大多数人来说，这不仅仅是一本书，但如果您想了解神经科学，它是一个很好的资源。
And your book, "Mastery."
还有你的书《精通》。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the reason I recommended "Mastery" is because these students were soon going to go into the great jungle of-
我推荐《精通》的原因是因为这些学生很快就要进入大丛林了——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
post-undergraduate education.
本科后教育。
And for me, I found "Mastery" to be an absolutely transformative book.
对我来说，我发现《精通》绝对是一本变革性的书。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In that it taught me so much about how to learn from others, how to expect certain types of interactions when one kind of assigns themselves to a mentor
因为它教会了我很多关于如何向他人学习，当一种人将自己分配给导师时如何期待某些类型的互动
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and vice versa.
反之亦然。
And it talked about some things that we'll get into in more depth today, but not the least of which is about identifying that unique seed that exists within all of us that-
它谈到了我们今天将更深入讨论的一些事情，但其中最重要的是识别我们所有人体内存在的独特种子——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
can guide our best decisions-
可以指导我们做出最好的决定——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in terms of finding our purpose.
就寻找我们的目标而言。
And so I usually end with a great debt of gratitude, and I'll probably do that again- ...
所以我通常会以感激之情结束，而且我可能会再次这样做-......
at the end.
在最后。
But I want to start with a great debt of gratitude.
但我想首先表达我深深的感激之情。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Oh, thank you.
哦，谢谢。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"Mastery" transformed my entire life.
“精通”改变了我的整个生活。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And in many ways, this podcast probably wouldn't exist-
从很多方面来说，这个播客可能不会存在——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Oh
哦
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
were it not for "Mastery," because it really embedded in me this idea that we all have a deeper purpose, and it explains how to go about finding that purpose.
如果不是为了“掌握”，因为它确实让我明白了这样一个想法：我们都有一个更深层次的目标，并且它解释了如何去寻找这个目标。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I tell you that, and I also will use that as a segue for asking you now, since I'm sure people's ears are pricked up to this, how do you find your purpose?
所以我告诉你这一点，我也将用它作为现在问你的一个延续，因为我确信人们对此很感兴趣，你如何找到你的目的？
Could you share with us what it is to find one's purpose, and how early life events perhaps can cue us-
您能否与我们分享一下寻找人生目标是什么，以及早期生活事件如何提示我们——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to what that purpose is for each of us?
我们每个人的目的是什么？
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Well, thank you for that marvelous introduction.
嗯，谢谢你的精彩介绍。
I'm almost blushing.
我都快脸红了
That's a fantastic story.
这是一个很棒的故事。
Well, being a human being is not easy as opposed to an animal because we're born and nobody gives us a direction.
嗯，与动物相比，成为人类并不容易，因为我们生来就没有人给我们指导。
Our parents might be a little bit, our college teachers, et cetera, mentors, but generally we're on our own.
我们的父母可能是我们的大学老师等等，导师，但一般来说我们都是靠自己。
And it's a very, very difficult process.
这是一个非常非常困难的过程。
You wake up in the morning and you don't really know what you can do.
你早上醒来，并不知道自己能做什么。
You could choose 12 different paths.
您可以选择 12 条不同的路径。
It can be very confusing and very overwhelming.
这可能会非常令人困惑和难以承受。
When you find that sense of purpose, when you find what I call your life's task, everything has a direction, everything has a purpose.
当你找到那种目标感，当你找到我所谓的人生任务时，一切都有了方向，一切都有了目的。
Your energy is concentrated.
你的能量很集中。
It's not like you're just going down a single narrow pathway.
这并不像你只是沿着一条狭窄的道路走下去。
It's not like life becomes boring and it's just about discipline and solving problems.
生活并不是变得无聊，而是关于纪律和解决问题。
It's actually the most exciting thing that can ever happen to you because you never have that lost feeling.
这实际上是发生在你身上最令人兴奋的事情，因为你永远不会有那种失落的感觉。
You wake up in the morning and you go, "Yeah, this is what I need to accomplish." People come at you with all kinds of distractions and boring and irritating things, you're able to cut it out.
你早上醒来后会说：“是的，这就是我需要完成的任务。”人们会带着各种各样的干扰、无聊和恼人的事情来找你，你可以把它们排除掉。
It's just the most marvelous piece of internal radar that you can have.
它是您能拥有的最奇妙的内置雷达。
So I genuinely wish that everybody can find that kind of internal radar.
所以我真诚地希望每个人都能找到这种内部雷达。
And so it's not easy, and I understand that.
所以这并不容易，我理解这一点。
There's no instant formula because we're all about instant formulas.
没有即时公式，因为我们都是即时公式。
It's difficult, and I want you to know that, so it's not like, "Robert can give me the answer in three minutes." No, I can't.
这很困难，我想让你知道这一点，所以这不像“罗伯特可以在三分钟内给我答案”。不，我不能。
But there's a process involved.
但这涉及一个过程。
It's not a mystery.
这不是什么秘密。
You can follow a very singular process.
您可以遵循一个非常单一的过程。
And the idea is, you were talking about childhood.
这个想法是，你在谈论童年。
The way I like to frame it is when you were born, you are a phenomenon.
我喜欢这样描述：当你出生时，你就是一个现象。
You are unique.
你是独一无二的。
Your DNA has never occurred in the history of the universe, going back billions of years.
你的DNA在数十亿年前的宇宙历史中从未出现过。
It will never occur in the future.
将来永远不会发生。
Your life experiences with your parents and everything that you experience in your early years going on up is unique.
你与父母的生活经历以及你早年经历的一切都是独一无二的。
It's yours.
这是你的。
You're one of a kind, right?
你是独一无二的，对吧？
So that is your source of power.
所以这就是你的力量源泉。
To waste that is just the worst thing you can do in your life.
浪费它是你一生中最糟糕的事情。
And what the power is, is finding that uniqueness.
力量就在于发现这种独特性。
What makes you, you, and how you can mine that, and how you can go deep into it and use that to create a career path.
是什么造就了你，你如何挖掘它，如何深入研究它并利用它来创造职业道路。
Right?
正确的？
And so I tell people, when you're a child, when you're four or five or even younger, you have what the great psychologist Maslow called impulse voices.
所以我告诉人们，当你还是个孩子的时候，当你四五岁甚至更小的时候，你就会有伟大的心理学家马斯洛所说的冲动声音。
They're little voices in your head that say, "I love this, I hate that.
它们是你脑海中的小声音，说：“我喜欢这个，我讨厌那个。
I like this food.
我喜欢这个食物。
I don't like when Mommy moves this way.
我不喜欢妈妈这样移动。
I like when Daddy comes from here." You're very cued into who you are and what you like and what you don't like, and these voices kind of direct you in certain ways, right?
我喜欢爸爸从这里来。”你很清楚自己是谁、喜欢什么、不喜欢什么，这些声音会以某些方式引导你，对吗？
And when you're very young, they direct you towards intellectual, mental pursuits as well.
当你很小的时候，他们也会引导你追求智力和精神上的追求。
And there's a book I recommend for everybody.
我向大家推荐一本书。
It's Howard Gardner's "Five Frames of Mind." It's helped me immensely.
这是霍华德·加德纳的《五种心态》。这对我帮助很大。
The idea is he talks about five forms of intelligence.
他的想法是他谈论了五种智力形式。
Our problem is we think of intelligence as mostly intellectual, but there are many forms of intelligence.
我们的问题是，我们认为智力主要是智力，但智力有多种形式。
There's the intelligence that has to do with words.
智力与言语有关。
There's abstract intelligence that has to do with patterns and mathematics.
抽象智能与模式和数学有关。
There's kinetic intelligence that has to do with the body.
运动智能与身体有关。
There's social intelligence.
有社交智慧。
He has five of them.
他有五个。
And the idea is your brain naturally veers towards one of them.
这个想法是你的大脑自然而然地转向其中之一。
It can veer towards two of them.
它可以转向其中两个。
That happens, but generally one of them kind of dominates, right?
这种情况确实会发生，但通常其中一种占主导地位，对吧？
And it's like a grain in your brain that's going in a certain direction.
它就像你大脑中的一粒颗粒朝着某个方向前进。
You want to go with that grain because that's where your power will lie.
你想要选择那种谷物，因为那是你的力量所在。
So when you're young, if you go back and think about when you were four or five, you can maybe get a picture of some kind of direction or voice inside of you that was impelling you towards this.
所以当你年轻的时候，如果你回想一下你四五岁的时候，你也许可以想象到你内心的某种方向或声音正在推动你走向这个。
I know for me, it was words.
我知道对我来说，这就是言语。
I can remember when I was six years old, I was just obsessed with words, just the letters in words, almost in a slightly schizophrenic way.
我记得当我六岁的时候，我只是沉迷于单词，只是单词中的字母，几乎有点精神分裂的方式。
I would spell words backwards.
我会倒着拼写单词。
I would take them apart.
我会把它们拆开。
I would do anagrams.
我会做字谜。
I love palindromes.
我喜欢回文。
Right?
正确的？
So I had a thing about words and language.
所以我对文字和语言很感兴趣。
It's very primal.
这是非常原始的。
Some people, Albert Einstein, when he was four years old, his father gave him a birthday gift of a compass, and he was just mesmerized by this compass.
有的人，阿尔伯特·爱因斯坦，在他四岁的时候，他的父亲送给他一个指南针的生日礼物，他就被这个指南针迷住了。
The idea that there are invisible forces out there in the cosmos moving this needle, and he's obsessed with the idea of invisible forces.
宇宙中存在无形的力量推动这根针的想法，他对无形力量的想法很着迷。
Steve Jobs, when he was seven or eight, or maybe younger, in Burlingame, California, his father, they passed by a store with technological devices in the window, and he was just hypnotized by the design of those devices and the glass tubes and everything.
史蒂夫·乔布斯（Steve Jobs）七八岁或更年轻的时候，在加利福尼亚州伯林格姆，他的父亲和他的父亲一起路过一家商店，橱窗里摆着科技设备，他被这些设备、玻璃管和一切的设计迷住了。
So he wanted to go in that direction.
所以他想朝这个方向发展。
Tiger Woods saw his father hitting golf balls in the garage, and he was just screaming with joy.
泰格·伍兹看到他的父亲在车库里打高尔夫球，他高兴得尖叫起来。
He had to do that, right?
他必须这么做，对吧？
I could give you a million different examples of this.
我可以给你一百万个不同的例子。
Of course, these are people who are famous, obviously.
当然，这些人显然都是名人。
We can go back and find that.
我们可以回去找到它。
It's easier.
更容易了。
But what happens to you, and please cut me off if I'm going on too long here.
但你会发生什么，如果我在这里说得太久，请打断我。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, please continue.
不，请继续。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Please.
请。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
What happens to you is you're seven, now you're getting older, and you're starting to not hear that voice anymore.
发生在你身上的事情是你七岁了，现在你变老了，你开始听不到那个声音了。
You're hearing the voice of your teachers telling you, "You're not good at this field.
你听到老师的声音告诉你：“你不擅长这个领域。
You need to get better at math.
你需要在数学方面做得更好。
You shouldn't be interested in these sports or anything.
你不应该对这些运动什么的感兴趣。
You should be going this way." Your parents are starting to tell you this is the career they want for you or the direction they want you to go in, right?
你应该往这边走。”你的父母开始告诉你，这是他们想要你从事的职业或者他们希望你进入的方向，对吧？
You start hearing that more than your own voice, and as you get older, it gets worse and worse.
你开始听到的不仅仅是你自己的声音，而且随着年龄的增长，情况会变得越来越糟。
Then when you're a teenager, it's all about what other people are doing, your peers, what's cool, what's not cool.
当你十几岁的时候，你关心的就是其他人在做什么，你的同龄人在做什么，什么很酷，什么不酷。
So all of this noise enters your brain, and you can't hear that anymore.
所以所有这些噪音都会进入你的大脑，你就听不到了。
You don't know who you are.
你不知道你是谁。
And so you go to college.
然后你就去上大学。
You maybe choose a major that seems practical that your parents want you to go into.
你可能会选择一个你父母希望你进入的看起来实用的专业。
Maybe you wander around.
也许你到处闲逛。
You're not sure.
你不确定。
And then you enter the work world without that inner radar that I'm talking about, and brother, you're lost, right?
然后你进入工作世界，却没有我所说的内心雷达，兄弟，你迷路了，对吧？
"Where should I go?
“我该去哪里？
Well, I need to make money," right?
好吧，我需要赚钱，”对吧？
And so you make a choice based on the need to make a lot of money.
所以你根据赚很多钱的需要做出选择。
Not everyone, but some people do that.
不是每个人，但有些人这样做。
And I understand that need.
我理解这种需要。
We all need to make a living, but that can set you off on a very bad path because you're not connected emotionally.
我们都需要谋生，但这可能会让你走上一条非常糟糕的道路，因为你们没有情感上的联系。
The thing is, when you figure out that primal inclination, that grain that's inside of you, then you have the energy to be disciplined, to go through boring tasks, to learn.
问题是，当你弄清楚你内心的那种原始倾向、那种本质时，你就有能量去遵守纪律，去完成无聊的任务，去学习。
You learn at a faster rate because you're emotionally engaged.
因为你投入了情感，所以你学习的速度会更快。
When you're emotionally engaged in a subject, the brain learns twice, three times, four times as fast as when you're not.
当你全神贯注于一门学科时，大脑的学习速度是你不投入时的两倍、三倍、四倍。
I always give the example, in college, I studied foreign languages, which was kind of a passion of mine.
我总是举这样的例子，在大学里，我学习了外语，这是我的一种热情。
For three or four years, I studied French, and then I went to Paris, and I couldn't speak a word.
我学了三四年法语，然后到了巴黎，我就一句话都不会说了。
It was useless because it didn't teach me anything practical.
它毫无用处，因为它没有教给我任何实用的东西。
I was totally confused.
我完全困惑了。
But I was in Paris, and I loved it, and I wanted to live there.
但我在巴黎，我喜欢它，我想住在那里。
And I had a girlfriend, and I needed to speak French to her.
我有一个女朋友，我需要和她说法语。
And I can tell you, in one month, I learned more than those four years of university because I wanted to, because I was engaged.
我可以告诉你，在一个月内，我学到的东西比大学四年还要多，因为我想学，因为我订婚了。
My emotions were there.
我的情绪就在那里。
It was like I had to survive to learn French.
就好像我必须生存才能学习法语。
So most of us, we don't have a need really to learn this subject.
所以我们大多数人并不需要真正学习这门学科。
We're paying half attention.
我们只关注一半。
But when you find the thing that really connects to you, you're paying deep attention.
但当你发现真正与你有联系的事物时，你就会给予深入的关注。
Your emotions are engaged.
你的情绪投入了。
You're learning at a much faster rate.
你的学习速度要快得多。
Okay?
好的？
And so the thing is, how do you find that when you're older?
问题是，当你老了之后，你如何发现这一点？
When you're 21, I give people a lot of help, and it's usually not so difficult.
当你21岁的时候，我会给别人很多帮助，而且通常并不那么困难。
We can go through that process.
我们可以经历这个过程。
It gets harder when you're 30, and you've been wandering around, but it's not impossible.
30岁以后就更难了，一直在流浪，但这也不是不可能。
I didn't really find my exact path until I was 38, 39, to be honest.
说实话，直到 38、39 岁的时候我才真正找到了自己的确切道路。
So there's hope.
所以还有希望。
When you get 40, and you get 50, it gets more and more difficult.
当你到了40岁，到了50岁，事情就变得越来越困难。
And it's very sad if you wasted that seed of uniqueness that I'm talking about.
如果你浪费了我所说的独特性的种子，那是非常可悲的。
And I tell people there are ways of going back, and we go through a process like archaeology.
我告诉人们有很多方法可以回去，我们会经历一个像考古学一样的过程。
We have to dig and dig and dig and find those bones from your childhood that indicated what you were meant to do.
我们必须挖啊挖啊挖，找到你童年时期的那些骨头，它们表明你应该做什么。
But when you find your life's task, everything opens up.
但当你找到人生的任务时，一切都会迎刃而解。
It doesn't mean you figured out, "Okay, I've got to aim for this particular job when I'm 28." That's not how it works.
这并不意味着你想通了，“好吧，我必须在 28 岁时以这份特定的工作为目标。”事情不是这样的。
It gives you a sense of direction.
它给你一种方向感。
You can try different things.
你可以尝试不同的事情。
You can experiment.
你可以尝试一下。
You can have fun when you're in your 20s.
当你20多岁的时候，你就可以享受乐趣。
You're going to learn.
你会学习的。
You're going to learn skills.
你将学习技能。
But it gives you an overall framework instead of, "Whoa, all of this confusion, this chaos, social media, the Internet, I could go here, here, here." You're lost at sea.
但它给了你一个整体框架，而不是“哇，所有这些混乱，社交媒体，互联网，我可以去这里，这里，这里。”你在海上迷路了。
It gives you a very important sense of direction, a compass.
它给你一种非常重要的方向感，一个指南针。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As you describe this, I have this image of, you mentioned animals, that presumably don't have a lot of flexibility in terms of the niches they can exist in.
正如你所描述的那样，我对你提到的动物有这样的印象，它们可能在它们可以存在的利基方面没有太多的灵活性。
But the way I imagine this process is that as a human, we're plopped into an environment, and here I'm using analogy, where we don't really know if we are an aquatic animal, a terrestrial animal, or an avian.
但我想象这个过程的方式是，作为一个人类，我们陷入了一个环境中，在这里我使用类比，我们并不真正知道我们是水生动物、陆生动物还是鸟类。
Right?
正确的？
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Or an amphibian.
或者是两栖动物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or an amphibian, for that matter.
或者是两栖动物。
And to make the wrong choice, to be an amphibian who's trying to fly, although I'm sure they're out there in the animal kingdom, it's not just a waste of time, it's probably deadly.
做出错误的选择，成为一只试图飞翔的两栖动物，尽管我确信它们就在动物王国里，但这不仅是浪费时间，而且可能是致命的。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And not to over-dramatize the failure of finding one's purpose, but I see it that way.
并不是要过度戏剧化地描述一个人找不到目标的失败，但我是这样看的。
Whereas, perhaps we could just say that the process of finding one's purpose is to realize like, "Ah, I'm an amphibian.
然而，也许我们可以说，找到一个人的目的的过程就是意识到，“啊，我是两栖动物。
I can go in and out of water, whereas a bunch of other creatures around me stop at the water's edge."
我可以进出水，而我周围的一群其他生物则停在水边。”
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
And this is really cool.
这真的很酷。
And a bunch of these other things, like these flying things, they can't actually even go in the water.
还有很多其他的东西，比如这些会飞的东西，它们实际上甚至不能进入水中。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some of them might be on the surface or dive into it, but they can't do what I can do.
他们中的一些人可能会浮在水面或潜入其中，但他们做不到我能做的事情。
So the process of self-discovery, it sounds like it's about restricting one's choices to a sort of wedge within the full landscape of-
所以自我发现的过程，听起来像是将一个人的选择限制在整个景观中的某种楔子——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
options.
选项。
And for me, I can certainly recall, after reading "Mastery," it helped me recall some early seed emotions that I experienced as a very distinct sensation in my body.
对我来说，我当然可以回忆起，读完《精通》后，它帮助我回忆起一些早期的种子情绪，这些情绪是我身体中一种非常独特的感觉。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Can you describe that?
你能描述一下吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, without making it too specific to my unique tastes, as a kid, I loved flora and fauna.
好吧，虽然不太符合我独特的口味，但小时候，我喜欢动植物。
I loved learning about biology.
我喜欢学习生物学。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No surprise there.
这并不奇怪。
But animals and how they move in particular, and fish, and going to a proper aquarium store for the first time, for me, and going snorkeling for the first time was like, wow.
但是动物，特别是它们的移动方式，还有鱼类，对我来说，第一次去正规的水族馆商店，第一次去浮潜，就像，哇。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And even as I describe it, it's almost like my body floats.
正如我所描述的，我的身体几乎漂浮在空中。
I feel it in my left arm, of all things, and it feels like there's something to do about it.
我在我的左臂上感觉到了这种感觉，感觉好像有什么事情可以做。
It's not just that I'm in observation of things that delight me.
这不仅仅是因为我在观察令我高兴的事物。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's like there's an activation state created within me like, I got to do something with this.
就好像我体内产生了一种激活状态，我必须对此做点什么。
And typically, it's tell everybody about it until they won't listen anymore.
通常，它会告诉每个人，直到他们不再听为止。
But oftentimes, it's to also draw those things, to think about them, and I just delight in them.
但很多时候，我也会画那些东西，思考它们，而我只是喜欢它们。
It's a constant source of delight.
这是一个持续的快乐源泉。
And so seeds such as those, and there are a few other things in that landscape of flora and fauna, and learning about animals and biology, including the human animal, and then organizing information feels so satisfying to me.
因此，诸如此类的种子，以及动植物群中的其他一些东西，了解动物和生物学，包括人类，然后组织信息对我来说非常令人满意。
It's like a drug.
这就像毒品一样。
And so it just feels like this eternal spring of life.
所以感觉就像是生命永恒的春天。
And so for me, that's what it was.
对我来说，就是这样。
And in 2015, when I was teaching that course, the course I loved, but I was feeling a little bit astray in my scientific career, and then I read "Mastery," and I realized, yes, I love running a laboratory, I love teaching, but there's something else for me.
2015年，当我教授这门课程时，我喜欢这门课程，但我感觉自己的科学生涯有点误入歧途，然后我读了《精通》，我意识到，是的，我喜欢管理实验室，我喜欢教学，但我还有其他的事情要做。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it has to do not with a podcast.
这与播客无关。
I knew what a podcast was.
我知道什么是播客。
I was listening to podcasts at that time.
那时我正在听播客。
But I wasn't on social media.
但我没有上社交媒体。
I had no thoughts of having a podcast.
我没想过要开播客。
But what I wanted was that feeling in its total number of forms.
但我想要的是那种多种形式的感觉。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's the goal.
这就是目标。
Get that feeling in as many forms as possible.
尽可能以多种形式获得这种感觉。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is that about right?
是这样吗？
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
That's absolutely perfect because the connection to what I'm talking about, it's not an intellectual thing, it's visceral, it's emotional, it's physical.
这绝对是完美的，因为与我所谈论的内容的联系，它不是一个智力上的东西，它是发自内心的，它是情感上的，它是身体上的。
And you feel it in your body.
你会在身体里感受到它。
And when you're doing it, it's like it's at your level.
当你这样做时，就好像它达到了你的水平。
It's like you're swimming with the current.
就像你在随波逐流一样。
You feel it.
你感觉到了。
Things are easy.
事情很容易。
Everything clicks together.
一切都很顺利。
There's a delight.
有一种喜悦。
Not everything is going to be delightful.
并非一切都会令人愉快。
There's going to be tedium involved.
这将会是乏味的。
There's going to be moments of boredom.
会有无聊的时刻。
But you're able to withstand the moments of boredom because you feel the deep overall connection.
但你能够承受无聊的时刻，因为你感受到了深厚的整体联系。
So yes, that's precisely what I'm talking about.
是的，这正是我所说的。
For me, it's a little bit similar thing is, I said about words, but the other thing that I was obsessed with when I was a kid was early human ancestors.
对我来说，有点相似的是，我谈到了文字，但我小时候痴迷的另一件事是早期人类祖先。
Don't ask me why.
别问我为什么。
I just was so obsessed with our ancestors millions of years ago, and how it's possible to be living here in the '60s or '70s with cars and everything, but to come to where we are now.
我只是非常着迷于数百万年前我们的祖先，以及如何可能生活在 60 年代或 70 年代，拥有汽车和一切，但却来到了我们现在的处境。
And I wrote a short story when I was eight years old about a vulture.
我八岁时写了一篇关于秃鹰的短篇故事。
It was written from the point of view of a vulture watching the first humans kind of emerge on the planet.
它是从一只秃鹰的角度观察第一批人类在地球上出现的角度写成的。
I'm sure it was absolutely awful, dreadful.
我确信这绝对是可怕的、可怕的。
But the weird thing is, I'm writing a new book, and all I'm doing in that book is going into early humans, and I feel like a kid again.
但奇怪的是，我正在写一本新书，而我在那本书中所做的只是进入早期人类，而我感觉又像个孩子了。
I'm so excited.
我太激动了。
I'm so happy.
我太高兴了。
So I can very much relate to your story.
所以我对你的故事非常有感触。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You mentioned these five different forms of intelligence-
你提到了这五种不同形式的智力——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or frames of mind-
或心境——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as you refer to them.
正如你提到的那样。
And I'm certainly aware that I lean towards a more intellectual interest, although, as you pointed out, the excitement, the delight is visceral.
我当然知道我更倾向于智力兴趣，尽管正如你所指出的，兴奋和喜悦是发自内心的。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the actions are actions.
行动就是行动。
They're of the body, ultimately.
归根结底，它们是属于身体的。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One has to draw, speak, write books, et cetera, to transmute that excitement into something real.
一个人必须画画、说话、写书等等，才能将这种兴奋转化为真实的东西。
For people that are not as intellectually tuned, but maybe are kinesthetically tuned, for instance.
例如，对于智力上不那么协调但动觉上可能协调的人来说。
I can only wonder what that's like.
我只能想知道那是什么样的。
I'm not completely uncoordinated, but I don't think I have a kinesthetic attunement or frame of mind.
我并不是完全不协调，但我不认为我有动觉协调或心态。
But I've, for instance, had a podcast listener mention that they think in feels, that they literally experience thought as sort of a patchwork of bodily sensations.
但例如，我有一位播客听众提到他们在感觉中思考，他们确实将思想体验为身体感觉的拼凑而成。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that thought for them is not of the stuff from the neck up, but only from the neck down, which to me was really intriguing.
对他们来说，这种想法不是从脖子以上的东西，而是从脖子以下的东西，这对我来说真的很有趣。
And so I only raise this because there have to be, as you pointed out, there's an infinite number of different sort of orientations based on our unique DNA and experience, but what do you think explains why these particular seeds or, as you point out, the direction that the grain runs in the brain?
所以我提出这个问题只是因为，正如你所指出的，基于我们独特的 DNA 和经验，必然存在无数种不同的方向，但你认为如何解释为什么这些特殊的种子，或者正如你所指出的，谷物在大脑中运行的方向？
It's partially going to be nature.
这部分是自然的。
It's going to be DNA.
这将是DNA。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
For sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But we're talking about this as if there's some exciting or awe-inspiring or delightful thing that captures us.
但我们谈论这个时，就好像有一些令人兴奋、令人敬畏或令人愉快的事情吸引了我们。
Can it be the other way, too?
也可以是其他方式吗？
Can it be one has a bad experience as a child in an intellectual environment, and then decides, "Things of the body feel good.
难道一个人小时候在智力环境中经历过一次糟糕的经历，然后决定：“身体的东西感觉很好。
Things of the mind, of intellect feels bad"?
心灵、智力的事物感觉很糟糕”？
And does it matter whether or not we are drawn to our purpose by recognizing what we love or what we hate, or are both useful?
我们是否会通过认识到自己所爱或所恨的事物来实现我们的目标，或者两者都有用，这重要吗？
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Oh, they're both very, very useful.
哦，它们都非常非常有用。
A lot of intelligence is non-verbal.
很多智力都是非语言的。
We think in terms of images.
我们用图像来思考。
We're very much infected by the emotions of other people.
我们很容易被别人的情绪所感染。
So I know, for instance, my mother is very, very interested in history.
所以我知道，例如，我的母亲对历史非常非常感兴趣。
She's obsessed with history.
她对历史很着迷。
And I probably absorbed her interest in history.
我可能吸收了她对历史的兴趣。
I don't think there's a gene for that interest.
我认为不存在这种兴趣的基因。
So you're going to absorb things from your parents as well, so it's not all just genetic.
所以你也会从父母那里吸收一些东西，所以这不仅仅是遗传的。
But yeah, what you hate will have a big thing.
但是，是的，你所讨厌的东西将会产生很大的影响。
But the problem with doing that is if you go into a direction and you're in elementary school, et cetera, and they force you to learn math and you hate it, what it tends to do is it turns you off from learning in general.
但这样做的问题是，如果你进入一个方向，并且你在小学等等，他们强迫你学习数学，而你讨厌它，它往往会导致你对一般学习失去兴趣。
You think, "I don't want to be disciplined.
你想：“我不想受到纪律处分。
I don't want to go through anything because it's painful.
我不想经历任何事情，因为那很痛苦。
It doesn't lead anywhere.
它不会通向任何地方。
It's not me.
这不是我。
It's frustration." It turns you off from learning in general.
这是挫败感。”它会让你对一般学习失去兴趣。
So it's really, really important for a child to have the love experience as early as possible so that they can know what they hate and why they hate it, right?
因此，对于孩子来说，尽早获得爱的体验真的非常非常重要，这样他们才能知道自己讨厌什么以及为什么讨厌，对吧？
And then they can rebel and they can go into that field as opposed to, "I hate learning.
然后他们可以反抗，他们可以进入那个领域，而不是“我讨厌学习。
I hate discipline.
我讨厌纪律。
I hate studying.
我讨厌学习。
I hate trying things over and over again." If you're kinesthetically oriented, and a part of me, I understand that because I love sports, is you have to practice.
我讨厌一遍又一遍地尝试事情。”如果你是动觉导向的，并且是我的一部分，我理解因为我热爱运动，所以你必须练习。
You're not going to instantly be good at something, right?
你不会立即擅长某件事，对吗？
And that's going to require a love of it, right?
这需要热爱它，对吧？
But if your math experience is, "I hate learning, shit," it's going to transfer to sports.
但如果你的数学经历是“我讨厌学习，该死”，它就会转移到体育领域。
You're going to hate discipline in general.
一般来说，你会讨厌纪律。
So it's very important for parents to let that child have at least glimmers of that love moment.
因此，对于父母来说，让孩子至少拥有一丝爱的时刻是非常重要的。
I know for me, when I finished college and I entered the work world, I had to get a job.
我知道对我来说，当我大学毕业并进入工作世界时，我必须找到一份工作。
I worked in journalism.
我从事新闻工作。
I hated it.
我讨厌它。
I hated working for other people.
我讨厌为别人工作。
I hated office politics.
我讨厌办公室政治。
I hated all the egos.
我讨厌所有的自我。
I hated the smarminess.
我讨厌这种狡猾的行为。
I hated the lack of quality.
我讨厌缺乏质量。
It was all just about making money and getting things out there.
这一切只是为了赚钱和把东西卖掉。
And then I worked in Hollywood.
然后我在好莱坞工作。
I hated Hollywood.
我讨厌好莱坞。
I hated working in Hollywood.
我讨厌在好莱坞工作。
That formed me very much, made me go in the direction that I went in, but only from the basis of I knew that I wanted to be a writer.
这对我影响很大，让我朝着自己的方向前进，但前提是我知道自己想成为一名作家。
So that's very important that it's not just hate.
所以这一点非常重要，这不仅仅是仇恨。
It can form you, but there also has to be that positive, deep, emotional love of something that also is grounded in you in some way.
它可以塑造你，但也必须有对某些事物的积极、深刻、情感上的爱，这种爱也以某种方式扎根于你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What you just said really highlights the fact that energy and motivation can come from either pressure, desire for something, or desire to get away from something.
你刚才所说的确实强调了这样一个事实：能量和动力可以来自压力、对某事的渴望，或者渴望摆脱某事。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And earlier when you were talking about how we are so much more engaged and driven towards things that stir us emotionally, and actually we know based on the neuroscience, as you know too, I'm sure, that only by the release of certain neurochemicals in the brain and body would our brain ...
早些时候，当你谈到我们如何更加投入和驱动那些激动我们情绪的事情时，实际上我们根据神经科学知道，正如你也知道的那样，我确信，只有通过在大脑和身体中释放某些神经化学物质，我们的大脑才会......
have any reason to change, right?
有什么理由改变吧？
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you don't feel agitation and you can do everything that you're trying to do, of course your brain wouldn't change.
如果你不感到焦虑并且你可以做你想做的一切，那么你的大脑当然不会改变。
Why would it, right?
为什么会这样，对吧？
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That agitation is a signature of the neurochemicals that are saying, "Hey, something's different now."
这种激动是神经化学物质的标志，它们在说：“嘿，现在有些不同了。”
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You might need to do something different, including rewire yourself.
您可能需要做一些不同的事情，包括重新调整自己。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that can come from positive or negative experiences.
这可能来自积极或消极的经历。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Definitely.
绝对是。
Of course.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now, I'm obsessed with this idea of energy.
现在，我对能量这个概念很着迷。
We all want to have more energy and focus, and normally we hear about the concept of energy in the context of caloric energy, like what should we eat, and when, and how much, and we need to get sleep.
我们都希望拥有更多的能量和注意力，通常我们会在热量能量的背景下听到能量的概念，比如我们应该吃什么、什么时候吃、吃多少，以及我们需要睡觉。
But what you're really referring to is neural energy, the engagement of ourselves that's sitting there ready to be engaged, but it requires the right experiential macronutrients, right?
但你真正指的是神经能量，我们自己坐在那里准备投入，但它需要正确的经验性宏量营养素，对吧？
The experiential micronutrients as opposed to, of course we need good nutrition, but that's not sufficient.
与经验性微量营养素相反，我们当然需要良好的营养，但这还不够。
It's necessary, but not sufficient.
这是必要的，但还不够。
So would you say that when we are, let's say since a good number of our listeners are in adulthood, from our 20s on, that the things that excite us as adults, that really generate some feeling of readiness or grab our attention, are still informative toward guiding our decisions about best life and life purpose?
那么你会说，当我们处于这种状态时，假设我们的很多听众已经成年，从20多岁开始，那些让我们成年人兴奋的事情，那些真正产生某种准备好的感觉或吸引我们注意力的事情，仍然可以提供信息来指导我们做出关于最佳生活和人生目的的决定吗？
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Well, what exactly do you mean by that?
嗯，你这到底是什么意思？
Because there are things that excite you in a kind of a quick way, where you have to relieve some tension, and there's entertainment and there's things that kind of give you pretty immediate gratification.
因为有些事情会以一种快速的方式让你兴奋，你必须缓解一些紧张，并且有娱乐，有些事情会给你立即的满足感。
Then there's the larger picture of something that will give you fulfillment over years to come.
然后还有一些更大的图景，这些事情将在未来几年给你带来满足。
So you can feel that when you're older, and you can pay attention to it, but a lot of the time is we're paying too much attention to the immediate pleasures of life, to what gives us instant gratification, and that's what we're grabbing for.
所以你可以感觉到，当你年纪大了，你可以关注它，但很多时候我们太关注生活中眼前的快乐，关注那些能给我们即时满足的东西，而这就是我们所追求的。
So this is a much more kind of deeper process that involves that digging that I was saying.
所以这是一个更深入的过程，涉及我所说的挖掘。
It's deeper than just kind of, "I like this, I don't like that," kind of thing.
它比“我喜欢这个，我不喜欢那个”之类的事情更深层次。
It's more something macro than just that.
这不仅仅是宏观的事情。
And so when you're in your 20s or in your 30s or your 40s, you want to be paying attention to yourself.
因此，当您 20 多岁、30 多岁或 40 多岁时，您想要关注自己。
And the problem with people in the world today is you're not paying attention to yourself.
当今世界人们的问题是你不关注自己。
You're not inside your own head.
你不在你自己的头脑里。
You don't hear those voices.
你听不到那些声音。
You don't hear what you love, what you like anymore, because as I said, there's so many of these other distractions going on.
你再也听不到你喜欢的、你喜欢的，因为正如我所说，还有很多其他的干扰正在发生。
And so you're always attuned to what other people like, right?
所以你总是能适应别人的喜好，对吗？
Because you're in social media.
因为你在社交媒体中。
This is what people are following, this is what they're interested in.
这就是人们所关注的，这就是他们感兴趣的。
As opposed to disengaging, backing off from that, and looking at yourself and going through the process of, "That's not me.
而不是脱离、退缩、审视自己并经历“那不是我”的过程。
Actually, I don't really like that." And so what you're talking about is, I think, very profound, is levels of frustration or anxiety are definite signals that you must pay attention to, that they're telling you, "This isn't a good direction for you.
事实上，我不太喜欢这样。”所以我认为你所说的是非常深刻的，沮丧或焦虑的程度是你必须注意的明确信号，他们告诉你，“这对你来说不是一个好方向。
This is a waste of time for you." And in general, I tell people, self-awareness, being able to hear those voices, to understand that your frustration is telling you something, and sometimes you just act on it without understanding it.
这对你来说是浪费时间。”总的来说，我告诉人们，自我意识，能够听到这些声音，了解你的挫折正在告诉你一些事情，有时你只是在不理解它的情况下采取行动。
But understanding why you're frustrated, why you don't like your career, why you're not happy about where you're going, is the key to everything.
但理解为什么你会感到沮丧，为什么你不喜欢你的职业，为什么你对你要去的地方不满意，是一切的关键。
It will actually be able, even in your 30s, to return you to that childhood inclination.
实际上，即使在您 30 多岁的时候，它也能够让您恢复童年的倾向。
But if you can't listen to where those emotions come from, then they're useless.
但如果你无法倾听这些情绪从何而来，那么它们就没用了。
They're not teaching you anything.
他们没有教你任何东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it sounds like one of the goals is to engage in what I'll just call for the moment unadulterated self-referencing.
因此，听起来目标之一就是进行我现在所说的纯粹的自我参照。
Unadulterated in the all senses of the word because, as a child, as you pointed out, at stages of life that are before puberty, they're literally presexual, which I think is important, right?
在这个词的所有意义上都是纯粹的，因为正如你所指出的，作为一个孩子，在青春期之前的人生阶段，他们实际上是性前性的，我认为这很重要，对吗？
Because puberty, to me as a neurobiologist who started off as a developmental neurobiologist, I can tell you that puberty is the most profound transformation that the brain undergoes-
因为青春期，对我来说，作为一名神经生物学家，一开始是一名发育神经生物学家，我可以告诉你，青春期是大脑经历的最深刻的转变——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Oh, for sure
哦，当然
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the entire lifespan.
在整个生命周期中。
There's just absolutely no question about it.
毫无疑问。
Everything is different after puberty because of all of the new relational dynamics that become apparent and our potential involvement in them.
青春期后一切都不同了，因为所有新的关系动态变得明显，而且我们可能参与其中。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not talked about enough how dramatically puberty changes the brain.
关于青春期如何显着改变大脑的讨论还不够。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We are different people before and after puberty.
青春期前后的我们是不同的人。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Hormones that are suddenly raging.
荷尔蒙突然汹涌澎湃。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The hormones are there, and it's not just changes in how we view the world, but changes in how the world views us.
荷尔蒙的存在，不仅改变了我们看待世界的方式，也改变了世界看待我们的方式。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And not just through the lens of sexuality, but also expectation of what we are capable of, what we are responsible for or not responsible for, our learning capacity.
不仅仅是通过性的视角，还包括对我们的能力、我们负责或不负责的事情以及我们的学习能力的期望。
Puberty is like this, it's also the most rapid stage of aging in our entire lifespan.
青春期就是这样，也是我们一生中衰老最快的阶段。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Wow.
哇。
I never knew that.
我从来不知道这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Those kids that go home for summer and then come back, like shaving.
那些回家过暑假然后回来的孩子，喜欢刮胡子。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I wasn't a late bloomer, but I had a long, protracted puberty, but I remember those kids.
我不是一个大器晚成的人，但我的青春期很长，很长，但我记得那些孩子。
I'm sure we all remember those kids.
我相信我们都记得那些孩子。
Everything changes, and so I think prior to puberty, these seeds, as you've described them, of delight or of resistance to things, I think they are unadulterated.
一切都会改变，所以我认为在青春期之前，这些种子，正如你所描述的，喜悦或对事物的抵抗，我认为它们是纯粹的。
They're not contaminated-
它们没有被污染——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
by the voices and expectations of others.
他人的声音和期望。
And so I can see the challenge of reaching back to those as an adult.
所以我可以看到作为一个成年人回到这些人身上所面临的挑战。
I wonder if this relates to something that I've heard you talk about before, although perhaps not as much as some of the other topics you've discussed publicly, which is the real versus the false sublime.
我想知道这是否与我以前听过您谈论过的事情有关，尽管可能不如您公开讨论过的其他一些主题，即真实与虚假的崇高。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could you perhaps just define for us what sublime really is, what a sublime experience is, and the distinction between real and false-
您能否为我们定义一下什么是崇高，什么是崇高体验，以及真实与虚假的区别——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Wow
哇
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
sublime experiences, because I feel like this relates-
崇高的经历，因为我觉得这涉及到-
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Oh, really?
哦，真的吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to finding that seed.
找到那颗种子。
Right.
正确的。
It's about finding authentic seeds within us As opposed to when emotions can be distracting and misleading.
这是为了在我们内心寻找真实的种子，而不是情绪分散注意力和误导。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Wow.
哇。
I never thought, I never made that connection, and it's the book that I'm writing right now, so thank you for that.
我从来没有想过，我从来没有建立过这种联系，这就是我现在正在写的书，所以谢谢你。
I'll have to think about that.
我得考虑一下。
I'm writing a book on the sublime, and I have several ways of kind of illustrating.
我正在写一本关于崇高的书，我有几种说明方式。
I generally like to use a metaphor, and the metaphor is that being a human being, being a social human being living in a particular culture, means that you live inside of a circle.
我一般喜欢用一个比喻，这个比喻是，作为一个人，作为一个生活在特定文化中的社会人，意味着你生活在一个圈子里。
And that circle of that time are the conventions of thinking, of ideas that are acceptable, of behavior that is acceptable.
那个时代的圈子是思维的惯例，是可以接受的想法，是可以接受的行为。
This is where you can go mentally, where you can go physically, all the codes and conventions.
这是你可以在精神上、在身体上、所有的规范和惯例去的地方。
So that circle for ancient Egypt and for 21st century America, they're obviously very different, but it's the same circle.
因此，古埃及的圆圈和 21 世纪美国的圆圈，它们显然非常不同，但它是同一个圆圈。
It's the same limiting factor.
这也是同样的限制因素。
You're not supposed to go outside of it.
你不应该走出它之外。
These are thoughts, experiences, behavior you're not supposed to do.
这些是你不应该做的想法、经历和行为。
The sublime is what lies just outside that circle.
崇高就在这个圈子之外。
The word sublime comes from on the threshold of.
“崇高”这个词来自于“门槛”。
It's like here's a door, and the sublime is literally at the threshold of the door.
这就好像这里有一扇门，而崇高就在门的门槛处。
You're looking out into something else, right?
你正在寻找别的东西，对吧？
And the quintessential sublime experience is a near-death experience.
而典型的崇高体验就是濒死体验。
You're standing on the doorway, the threshold of death itself, right?
你正站在门口，死亡本身的门槛，对吗？
And so in my book, I'm illustrating the different kinds of sublime experiences that you can have in relation to the cosmos, in the relation to thinking about being alive.
因此，在我的书中，我展示了与宇宙、与思考生存有关的不同种类的崇高体验。
Just being alive is the strangest sensation you could possibly have.
仅仅活着就是你可能拥有的最奇怪的感觉。
I know that very personally after my stroke.
在我中风之后，我个人就知道这一点。
I go into a chapter on childhood and how sublime your own childhood was.
我会用一章讲述童年，以及你自己的童年是多么美好。
I go into animals, the relation to animals.
我研究动物以及与动物的关系。
I have a chapter about the brain, a chapter about love.
我有一章是关于大脑的，有一章是关于爱的。
I'm working right now on a chapter about history.
我现在正在写一个关于历史的章节。
Okay?
好的？
But what I'm trying to say is the human brain is wired for these experiences.
但我想说的是，人类的大脑天生就有这些经历。
It's wired for transcendental experiences that take us out of the narrow little realm that we live in.
它具有超凡的体验，将我们带出我们所生活的狭窄的小领域。
Because we're aware of our death as the only animal truly conscious of its own mortality, and it frightens the hell out of us, and the idea that we can see something larger than just the banal parts of our life is a doorway that allows us to kind of transcend the moment, to feel connected to something larger, to feel connected to some power in the cosmos, to evolution itself, right?
因为我们意识到我们的死亡是唯一真正意识到自己必死性的动物，它让我们感到恐惧，而我们可以看到比生活中平庸的部分更大的东西的想法是一扇门，让我们超越当下，感觉与更大的东西有联系，感觉与宇宙中的某种力量，与进化本身有联系，对吗？
And so we're wired for that, and I'm writing a chapter now about 40,000 years ago at the moment where I think the sublime was born.
因此，我们为此做好了准备，而我现在正在写一章，大约是四万年前，我认为崇高就是在那时诞生的。
It's a story that I'm trying to illustrate right now with our upper Paleolithic ancestors.
我现在正试图向我们的旧石器时代晚期祖先讲述这个故事。
So it's deep inside of us.
所以它在我们内心深处。
We need it.
我们需要它。
We have to have it.
我们必须拥有它。
In the 21st century, we have very few avenues for it, any real avenues.
在21世纪，我们几乎没有任何真正的途径。
Religion used to be the main kind of way of accessing this.
宗教曾经是实现这一点的主要方式。
And so because it's so deep, we reach for false forms of the sublime that give us the sense that we're transcending, but it's not at all because sublime has to come from within.
因此，因为它是如此之深，我们达到了崇高的虚假形式，这给了我们一种超越的感觉，但这根本不是因为崇高必须来自内部。
It's an experience that you have, that you're generating in your own mind, in your own experience.
这是你拥有的一种体验，是你在自己的头脑中、在自己的经历中产生的。
The false sublime comes from outside.
虚假的崇高来自于外部。
It comes from drugs.
它来自毒品。
It comes from alcohol.
它来自酒精。
It comes from shopping.
它来自购物。
It comes from online rage.
它来自网上的愤怒。
It comes from joining a cause and just getting out all your aggression and violence, right?
它来自于加入一项事业并摆脱所有的侵略性和暴力，对吗？
It comes from causes.
它来自于因。
It comes from addictions.
它来自成瘾。
Okay?
好的？
It gives you a sense, it calms you down.
它给你一种感觉，让你平静下来。
It makes you feel like there's something else going on in life besides your job that you're sick of.
这会让你觉得生活中除了你厌倦的工作之外还有其他事情发生。
But it's not real.
但这不是真的。
It's not lasting.
它不持久。
It's false.
这是假的。
It's an illusion.
这是一种幻觉。
It's not based on anything real.
它不是基于任何真实的东西。
It's not connecting to that deep part of human nature that's wired for these experiences.
它与人类本性中与这些经历相关的深层部分没有联系。
So what happens is you have to have more and more and more and more of it.
所以发生的事情是你必须拥有越来越多、越来越多的东西。
You have to have more of this rush.
你必须有更多的这种匆忙。
You need more of the drug.
你需要更多的药物。
You need more of the alcohol.
你需要更多的酒精。
You need more of the sex.
你需要更多的性爱。
You need more of the porn.
你需要更多的色情内容。
It's never going to satisfy you.
它永远不会让你满意。
But the real sublime, you don't have that feeling.
但真正的崇高，你没有那种感觉。
It's transformative.
这是变革性的。
Once you feel it, it lasts for you for the rest of your life.
一旦你感受到它，它就会伴随你一生。
It's what Maslow, again, called a peak experience.
这就是马斯洛所说的巅峰体验。
So that's the difference between the false and the real sublime.
这就是虚假的崇高和真正的崇高之间的区别。
I haven't quite connected it to what you were saying, but if I think about it, I think you're on something very interesting.
我还没有把它和你所说的联系起来，但如果我仔细想想，我认为你正在做一些非常有趣的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe the connection I was trying to draw doesn't hold.
也许我试图建立的联系并不成立。
But yeah, for me, those early experiences of seeing things that just delighted me in a way that felt like, the thought process, it was a long time ago, went something like, "Oh my goodness, I can't believe this exists.
但是，是的，对我来说，那些早期看到让我高兴的事物的经历，感觉就像是很久以前的思考过程，就像是，“哦，天哪，我不敢相信这存在。
This is so cool.
这太酷了。
This is the coolest thing." And so clearly created an activation state within me.
这是最酷的事情。”如此明显地在我体内创造了一种激活状态。
But then there was also a thought and a feeling of, again, a lot of this is sort of pre-verbal.
但随后也有一种想法和感觉，再次强调，其中很多都是前语言的。
It's not truly pre-verbal.
它并不是真正的前语言。
I could speak at that age, but it was, that's of me and I'm of it, right?
我在那个年纪可以说话，但那是我的，我就是它的，对吗？
There's a connection there.
那里有联系。
And then it was, there's something to do about this.
然后就是，有一些事情要做。
The activation state created in the body was, I need to learn more about this.
体内产生的激活状态是，我需要更多地了解这一点。
I need to tell people about this.
我需要告诉人们这件事。
I need to think about this.
我需要考虑一下。
I need more examples of this and see whether or not they're all like this, et cetera, et cetera.
我需要更多这样的例子，看看它们是否都是这样的，等等。
So certainly it meets some of the criteria of a sublime experience.
所以它肯定符合一些崇高体验的标准。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Definitely.
绝对是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I knew, again, when I was in graduate school and again when I was this young professor about to transition to tenure, that I knew it was going to do something different.
我再次知道，当我在读研究生时，当我还是一位即将过渡到终身教授的年轻教授时，我知道它会做一些不同的事情。
It was as if I was on the threshold of something, but I didn't know what that next thing was.
就好像我正处于某件事的门槛上，但我不知道下一件事是什么。
But I could trust it because of that early experience of knowing that's the thread.
但我可以相信它，因为我很早就知道这就是线索。
Like Like I'm an amphibian, this is my environment.
就像我是两栖动物一样，这就是我的环境。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you're an amphibian too, right?
你也是两栖动物，对吧？
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we're different amphibians, but we're going to be amphibians together.
我们是不同的两栖动物，但我们将一起成为两栖动物。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there's a permanence to it that it does seem to transcend time.
而且它有一种永恒性，似乎超越了时间。
I'm obsessed with time perception, so I have to be careful not to go off on a tangent about that.
我对时间感知很着迷，所以我必须小心不要偏离主题。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
I am too.
我也是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But at the human brain's ability to fine slice or macro slice time is incredible.
但人类大脑对时间进行精细切片或宏观切片的能力是令人难以置信的。
And it's been said of not just addictions, but also interactions with toxic people that they murder time.
有人说，不仅是上瘾，还有与有毒的人的互动，他们都在浪费时间。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Oh.
哦。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That humans have a, I think it was Jung, I'll look it up, but one of the great psychologists said something to the extent that addictive behaviors, thought patterns, substances are humans' attempts to murder time so that they don't have to address their mortality.
人类有一个，我想是荣格，我会查一下，但一位伟大的心理学家说过，成瘾行为、思维模式、物质是人类试图谋杀时间，这样他们就不必解决死亡问题。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that's always made a lot of sense to me.
这对我来说总是很有意义。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
We say kill time as our expression.
我们说“消磨时间”。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Kill time-
消磨时间——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
through passive engagement, but also kill time through trying to get overwhelmed or overtaken by an experience or a substance.
通过被动参与，但也通过试图被某种经历或物质淹没或超越来消磨时间。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
As opposed to when you're truly connected, you have that sense of flow, and three hours can pass by and you're not even aware of it.
与真正连接时相反，您有一种流动感，三个小时可能过去了，您甚至没有意识到。
So time is a totally subjective experience.
所以时间是一种完全主观的体验。
It can be extremely slow and tedious and you feel very depressed, or it can pass by, but it passes by without you even noticing it, and it's a wondrous experience.
它可能会非常缓慢、乏味，让你感到非常沮丧，或者它可能会过去，但你甚至没有注意到它就过去了，这是一种奇妙的体验。
When I'm deep in my writing, I'm not aware of the time passing.
当我沉浸在写作中时，我意识不到时间的流逝。
I'm so involved, I'm so immersed.
我如此投入，如此沉浸。
It's a deeply, deeply pleasurable experience of time.
这是一次非常非常愉快的时间体验。
It is sublime.
这是崇高的。
And yeah, so I agree with you.
是的，所以我同意你的观点。
I think your distinction's very interesting.
我认为你的区别很有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm eagerly awaiting your next book, but we won't rush you.
我热切地等待你的下一本书，但我们不会催你。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Well, I'm so immersed in it that I could talk for hours, because I also have a chapter in there about what I call the daemon, which is like that voice inside of you that speaks to you, and I'm writing a whole chapter about how sublime that is when you connect to that voice.
好吧，我是如此沉浸其中，以至于我可以讲几个小时，因为其中有一章是关于我所说的守护进程的，它就像你内心对你说话的声音，我正在写一整章关于当你连接到那个声音时是多么崇高。
So you are spot on.
所以你是对的。
There is something very much connected to mastery in this book, but it's the next chapter that I'm writing.
本书中有一些与掌握密切相关的内容，但这是我正在写的下一章。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fantastic.
太棒了。
Can't wait.
等不及了。
I can't wait.
我等不及了。
I'd like to shift slightly to a topic that you've written extensively about, which is power.
我想稍微转向一个你已经写了很多文章的主题，那就是权力。
And not just power, but also seduction, which you've written extensively about.
不仅是权力，还有诱惑，你已经写了大量的文章。
And of course, you've written about finding one's purpose.
当然，你写过关于寻找人生目标的文章。
So tell me if the framework that I've just given myself liberty to create is an accurate one, and if it's not, I'm hoping that it's not in perhaps some interesting ways.
所以请告诉我，我刚刚给自己自由创建的框架是否准确，如果不是，我希望它不是以某种有趣的方式出现的。
So to me, you talk about, and we will talk about power as a resource.
所以对我来说，你谈论，我们将谈论权力作为一种资源。
It's something that it's there as a resource.
它是作为一种资源而存在的。
It could be used or not used.
它可以使用也可以不使用。
And I think of seduction as one form of exchange between individuals.
我认为诱惑是人与人之间交换的一种形式。
So there's a verb associated with seduction.
所以有一个与诱惑相关的动词。
Power, I'm thinking of more as a noun in this context.
权力，在这种情况下，我认为“更多”是一个名词。
You're the word guy.
你就是这个词的家伙。
And then purpose is really about finding to what end or ends one is going to devote power, seduction, and the other forces that allow human beings to interact with each other in the world.
然后，目的实际上是为了找到一个或多个目的，一个人将投入力量、诱惑和其他允许人类在世界上彼此互动的力量。
But power as a resource that can be expressed in different ways and accessed in different ways.
但权力作为一种资源，可以以不同的方式表达并以不同的方式获取。
Maybe we could just explore that a little bit, because when we hear the word power, I think a lot of people kind of brace themselves, like, "Here we go.
也许我们可以稍微探讨一下，因为当我们听到权力这个词时，我想很多人都会做好准备，比如，“我们开始吧。
Someone's going to try and have power over me.
有人会试图对我施加影响。
This is about manipulation," and so on and so forth.
这是关于操纵，”等等。
But I learned pretty early on that every career endeavor, there are power dynamics.
但我很早就了解到，每一项职业努力都存在权力动态。
There's mentor-mentee.
有导师。
There are teachers and there are students, and both have power.
有老师，有学生，都有权力。
In romantic relationships, there's a power exchange.
在浪漫关系中，存在权力交换。
There are yeses and there are nos.
有是的，也有不是。
There are maybes.
有可能。
There are covert and overt contracts.
合同有隐性合同和显性合同之分。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'll do this because I want to.
我会这样做，因为我愿意。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You'll do this because you want to.
你会这样做，因为你愿意。
Great.
伟大的。
Sounds great.
听起来很棒。
Overt contract.
公开合同。
There are also covert contracts.
还有秘密合同。
Well, I don't feel safe doing that, so what I'll do is I'll take something from the interaction that you're not aware of so that I can sort of ease my sense of danger and give myself the illusion of feeling safe, and all sorts of kind of complicated human dynamics that have to do with us having this forebrain thing that can do all of that gymnastics.
好吧，我觉得这样做并不安全，所以我要做的就是从你没有意识到的互动中获取一些东西，这样我就可以减轻我的危险感，给自己一种安全感的错觉，以及各种复杂的人类动态，这些都与我们拥有可以完成所有体操的前脑有关。
So maybe we could start very simply by just saying, how would you define power in terms of its functional definition, like in interpersonal relations?
因此，也许我们可以非常简单地开始说，你如何根据功能定义来定义权力，比如在人际关系中？
And then why do you think power is so essential to all relationships?
那么你为什么认为权力对于所有关系都如此重要？
That's really what I'd like to get to.
这确实是我想要达到的目标。
Why is it so essential?
为什么它如此重要？
Why couldn't it be something else?
为什么不能是别的东西呢？
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Well, the way I define power is I try and take it away from that kind of negative context that most people have and that you brought up, and I bring it to something very primitive and very primal.
嗯，我定义权力的方式是，我尝试将它从大多数人所拥有的以及你提出的那种负面背景中剔除，并将其带入非常原始和原始的东西。
The way the human being is wired, the feeling that we have no control of our environment, and in the earliest period, it was literally over our environment and wild animals and nature and the climate, et cetera.
人类的连接方式，我们无法控制环境的感觉，在最早的时期，它实际上是我们的环境、野生动物、自然和气候等等。
But now the sense that you have no control over your career, over your children, over your parents, is deeply, deeply immiserating, and it compels us to act in certain ways, either attempts to find positive ways of power or doing what you call covert ways of getting power.
但现在，你无法控制你的事业、你的孩子、你的父母，这种感觉是深深的、深深的痛苦，它迫使我们以某种方式采取行动，要么试图找到积极的权力方式，要么采取你所谓的秘密方式来获取权力。
Passive-aggressive, traditionally passive-aggressive means.
被动进攻，传统意义上的被动进攻手段。
So it's deeply wired in us to want a degree of control over the immediate environment and immediate events.
因此，我们内心深处渴望对眼前的环境和眼前的事件进行一定程度的控制。
We can never have complete control, and the idea of having complete control is nonsense, and it would actually be very ugly because you want a degree of letting go and letting circumstances come to you, et cetera.
我们永远无法完全控制，而完全控制的想法是无稽之谈，而且实际上会非常丑陋，因为你想要一定程度的放手，让情况来找你，等等。
So the sense of you You want to feel like with other people in relationships that you can influence them, that you can move them in a certain direction, either to get you to love you and treat you better, or either to stop annoying, irritating behaviors, or either to wake up and find and do productive activity to your children, et cetera.
因此，你希望在与其他人的关系中感觉到你可以影响他们，你可以让他们朝某个方向发展，要么让你爱你，更好地对待你，要么停止烦人、恼人的行为，或者要么醒来，找到并为你的孩子做富有成效的活动，等等。
You want to have the ability to influence people, to move them in a certain direction, either in your interest or in their interest, right?
你希望有能力影响人们，让他们朝着某个方向发展，无论是为了你的利益还是为了他们的利益，对吗？
And once you have that need, and every single human being ever who's ever lived has that need, and we often don't recognize it because we're embarrassed by it.
一旦你有了这种需求，每一个曾经生活过的人都有这种需求，但我们常常意识不到它，因为我们对此感到尴尬。
We're embarrassed by our desire for power, for our need to control.
我们因对权力的渴望、对控制的需要而感到尴尬。
Every human being has it, right?
每个人都有它，对吗？
And it's not easy because human beings are complicated.
这并不容易，因为人类是复杂的。
If you say, "Do this," and you're talking to your son, he'll do the opposite, or he'll do something else.
如果你说“这样做”，而你正在和你的儿子说话，他会做相反的事情，或者他会做别的事情。
You can't just force people in a direction, right?
你不能强迫人们朝某个方向前进，对吗？
By being overt and telling them, "This is what you need to do," you create resentment, you create an enemy.
通过公开告诉他们“这就是你需要做的”，你会制造怨恨，你会制造敌人。
They may say, "Yes, Daddy," "Yes, Husband, I'll do what you say," but they're going to resist you deep down inside, right?
他们可能会说，“是的，爸爸”，“是的，丈夫，我会照你说的做”，但他们内心深处会抗拒你，对吧？
So people are tricky.
所以人是很狡猾的。
They wear masks.
他们戴着面具。
They pretend to say one thing and they do another.
他们假装说一套，做另一套。
They have their egos, and you inadvertently wound their egos or trip them in some way, and they react in a way that you don't expect.
他们有他们的自尊心，而你无意中伤害了他们的自尊心或以某种方式绊倒了他们，他们就会以你意想不到的方式做出反应。
And so power is this kind of invisible realm that envelops society where people are continually battling each other and struggling in it, but no one is talking about it.
所以权力就是一种无形的领域，它笼罩着社会，人们在其中不断地互相争斗、挣扎，但没有人谈论它。
No one's being overt about it.
没有人公开谈论此事。
No one's saying, "This is exactly what I'm trying to do." And so when you enter the social world and the career world, you're not expecting these battles.
没有人会说：“这正是我想做的事情。”因此，当您进入社交世界和职业世界时，您不会期待这些战斗。
No one's taught you, no one's trained you, your parents don't train you.
没有人教过你，没有人训练过你，你的父母也没有训练过你。
Nobody trains you.
没人训练你。
And you make mistakes, and you realize how political people are.
当你犯错误时，你就会意识到政治人物的本质。
If you're a sharky character, and there's this certain percentage of them, you realize, "Wow, I can deceive people.
如果你是一个狡猾的角色，并且有一定比例的人，你会意识到，“哇，我可以欺骗人们。
I can manipulate them.
我可以操纵它们。
I can get what I want.
我能得到我想要的。
I can pretend to love them, and they'll fall for me, and I can do all this other stuff." But for most of us, the 95% of us who aren't sharks, and I'm including myself in that category, it's very, very disturbing to suddenly enter that world and see all of that invisible power games.
我可以假装爱他们，他们就会爱上我，而我可以做所有其他的事情。”但对于我们大多数人来说，95% 的人都不是鲨鱼，而我自己也属于这一类，突然进入那个世界并看到所有这些无形的权力游戏是非常非常令人不安的。
No one's given you any advice or helped you.
没有人给你任何建议或帮助你。
And so take it out of the realm of it's just about trying to dominate the world and manipulate and exploit and abuse.
因此，将其从试图主宰世界、操纵、剥削和滥用的领域中剔除出来。
It's something inside of you.
这是你内心的某种东西。
You have this need, and your suppression of it will only make you come out in passive ways, and you won't be able to control certain things.
你有这个需要，你压抑它只会让你变得被动，某些事情你无法掌控。
If you want to move people, if you want them to follow your ideas, if you want them to be more aligned with your politics or your ideas, you have to be subtle.
如果你想打动人们，如果你希望他们遵循你的想法，如果你希望他们与你的政治或想法更加一致，你就必须变得微妙。
You have to learn psychology.
你必须学习心理学。
You have to learn certain aspects of how to almost move people without them realizing in certain directions, which is like the art of seduction.
你必须学习如何在人们没有意识到的情况下感动他们的某些方面，这就像诱惑的艺术。
And if you're not interested in that, if you're just going to tell people what you think and what you're going to do, that means you're not interested in practical action.
如果你对此不感兴趣，如果你只是想告诉人们你的想法和你要做什么，那就意味着你对实际行动不感兴趣。
You're not interested in results.
你对结果不感兴趣。
You're just interested in venting your own frustrations or your own anger.
你只是想发泄自己的沮丧或愤怒。
So learning the subtle little dynamics of power is extremely essential because we're a social animal.
因此，了解权力的微妙动态非常重要，因为我们是一种社会性动物。
It doesn't mean that you're going to get dirty, that you're going to suddenly go out there and manipulate the hell out of people.
这并不意味着你会变得肮脏，或者你会突然走出去操纵别人。
Most of the "48 Laws of Power" is about defense, about how to defend yourself from the sharks about there, how to defend yourself from making classic mistakes like outshining the master, like talking too much, like arguing with people instead of demonstrating your ideas, on and on and on.
“48条权力法则”的大部分内容都是关于防御，关于如何保护自己免受周围鲨鱼的伤害，如何保护自己不犯经典错误，例如超越大师，喜欢说太多，喜欢与人争论而不是展示自己的想法，等等。
It's not an ugly thing.
这不是什么丑陋的事情。
It actually makes you a better social individual.
它实际上让你成为一个更好的社交个体。
So that's how I like to frame it.
这就是我喜欢的框架方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's very interesting.
这很有趣。
I think as a young guy growing up, it was so important to me to know where I fit in with my friend group, and I didn't think of it so much as a hierarchy, nor when I was in my academic studies did I think of it as a hierarchy, even though it was.
我认为，作为一个成长中的年轻人，了解自己与朋友群体的融洽关系对我来说非常重要，而且我并不认为它是一种等级制度，当我在学术研究中时，我也不认为它是一种等级制度，尽管确实如此。
Clearly was, right?
显然是，对吧？
So much as the goal was to figure out where was my unique slot that I could do the most good for myself and others.
尽管目标是找出我独特的位置在哪里，我可以为自己和他人做出最大的贡献。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Kind of finding my spot, I don't want to say on a shelf because that gives an image of something vertical, but let's make it lateral.
有点找到我的位置，我不想说在架子上，因为这给出了垂直的图像，但让我们把它变成横向的。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A lateral arrangement of different people with different strengths, different life purposes, trying to figure them out.
具有不同优势、不同人生目的的不同人横向排列，试图弄清楚它们。
Where should I be in order to express that and also feel connected to others?
我应该在哪里才能表达这一点并感受到与他人的联系？
And in order to do that, I realize now, based on your answer, I did have to figure out who's trying to have power over, who's pretending that they don't want power but is actually exerting power, these sorts of things.
为了做到这一点，我现在意识到，根据你的回答，我确实必须弄清楚谁在试图拥有权力，谁假装不想要权力，但实际上在施加权力，诸如此类的事情。
And there's an incredible peace that comes from knowing that one is in the correct place, both profession, interpersonally, in relation to oneself, but also in the context of one's peer group.
当知道自己处于正确的位置时，会产生一种令人难以置信的平静，无论是在职业、人际、与自己的关系上，还是在同龄人群体的背景下。
Just kind of knowing, "Yeah, this is where I belong." Because trying to gain power when one is trying to move to a position that isn't right for them or in a way that isn't right for them just seems so energetically costly.
只是知道，“是的，这就是我所属的地方。”因为当一个人试图移动到一个不适合他们的职位或以一种不适合他们的方式时，试图获得权力似乎需要付出很大的精力代价。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Seems like a waste of a life, frankly.
坦率地说，这似乎是浪费生命。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Trying to gather resources simply to have them to give the illusion of power, but then being afraid of losing them just sounds like a recipe for misery, as you pointed out.
正如您所指出的，试图收集资源只是为了让它们产生权力的幻觉，但随后又害怕失去它们，这听起来像是一种痛苦的根源。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Whereas figuring out where am I most powerful in the benevolent sense of the word, that seems like a good pursuit.
从仁慈的意义上来说，弄清楚我最强大的地方在哪里，这似乎是一个很好的追求。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Well, it's connecting up to mastery again and finding your life's purpose.
嗯，它是再次连接到掌握并找到你的人生目标。
I knew when I was young that I couldn't exert physical power because I was a skinny little runt.
我从小就知道自己无法发挥体力，因为我是个瘦弱的小矮子。
And I wasn't bullied, but people would kind of pick on me, et cetera.
我没有被欺负，但人们会欺负我，等等。
So I veered towards intellectual pursuits where I could have power, and in the end, you might've been a jock and you might've done well in high school, but ha ha, look at me now.
所以我转向了智力追求，在那里我可以拥有权力，最后，你可能是一名运动员，你可能在高中表现很好，但是哈哈，看看我现在。
I'm not saying that it's a beautiful thing, but that's part of human nature, the desire to actually prove yourself and find that niche that you belong to so you don't have that sense of inferiority, which Alfred Adler, the psychologist, describes very eloquently.
我并不是说这是一件美丽的事情，但这是人性的一部分，渴望真正证明自己并找到自己所属的利基市场，这样你就不会产生自卑感，心理学家阿尔弗雷德·阿德勒（Alfred Adler）非常雄辩地描述了这一点。
So a lot of it is kind of compensating when you're a child for things that are your weaknesses and finding what you're so good at that you do have that power, and people can't bully you.
因此，当你还是个孩子的时候，很多事情都是对你的弱点的补偿，并找到你所擅长的事情，你确实有这种力量，人们不能欺负你。
Right?
正确的？
And you're now a famous neuroscientist, whereas they're like, "Who knows what they're doing?" kind of thing.
你现在是一位著名的神经科学家，而他们却说，“谁知道他们在做什么？”之类的事情。
So power definitely is connected in some way to that inner sense of what you were meant to do.
因此，权力肯定以某种方式与你想做的事情的内心感觉有关。
And you feel it with the ease and the connection that comes from it, right?
你会感受到它的轻松和由此产生的联系，对吧？
So I can honestly say that my dislike of working for other people in office politics and egos, I now have an existence where I don't have to deal with any of that.
所以我可以诚实地说，我不喜欢在办公室政治和自负中为其他人工作，现在我的存在不需要处理任何这些问题。
And I'm so blessed, and I wake up every morning, and I pray to God, thank God I found this because it's the perfect lifestyle for me.
我很幸运，每天早上醒来，我向上帝祈祷，感谢上帝，我找到了这个，因为这对我来说是完美的生活方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, you can be accurately described as an intellectual beast.
是的，你可以准确地描述为知识野兽。
Which is a compliment, right?
这是一种恭维，对吗？
We hear the word beast, and we think a ferocious beast trying to harm others.
当我们听到“野兽”这个词时，我们会想到一种试图伤害他人的凶猛野兽。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
No, I'm happy being a beast.
不，我很高兴成为一只野兽。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
So I think finding where we can be a beast, and for some people that's painting or-
所以我认为找到我们可以成为野兽的地方，对于某些人来说，那就是绘画或-
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
gardening or whatever it might be-
园艺或任何可能的东西-
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I think again ties back to these issues or this quest for mastery.
我认为这又与这些问题或对掌握的追求有关。
Seduction is also a very loaded word, right?
诱惑也是一个很有内涵的词，对吧？
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
It's even more uglier than power.
它比权力更丑陋。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because seduction-
因为诱惑——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
For real.
真的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Seduction kind of drips with the idea that somebody is tricking someone else into doing something that they otherwise would not want to do.
诱惑有点让人觉得有人在欺骗别人做一些他们本来不想做的事情。
But seduction is both our propensity to do it and to have it done to us, is hardwired into our nervous system, and has a lot to do with the hypothalamus and a bunch of other areas that I won't bore us with the nomenclature.
但诱惑既是我们做事的倾向，也是别人对我们做事的倾向，是我们神经系统中固有的，与下丘脑和其他一些区域有很大关系，我不会用这些术语来烦我们。
But seduction to me implies some sort of exchange.
但对我来说，诱惑意味着某种交换。
I suppose we could seduce ourselves through denial or convincing ourselves of something.
我想我们可以通过否认或说服自己某些事情来引诱自己。
But more often than not, when we talk about seduction, we're talking about an interaction between two or more people.
但通常情况下，当我们谈论诱惑时，我们谈论的是两个或更多人之间的互动。
So, what are some of the core principles of seduction?
那么，诱惑的核心原则是什么？
And if you care to play anthropologist a bit, and a neuroscientist, I would invite that.
如果你愿意扮演一点人类学家和神经科学家，我会邀请你。
Why do you think we have neural circuits in our brain that allow us to seduce and be seduced?
你认为为什么我们的大脑中有能让我们诱惑和被诱惑的神经回路？
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Well, I don't know if I'm being kind of an armchair intellectual here, but my theory is some of it has to go back to social events long in our prehistory, which have to do with taboos.
好吧，我不知道我在这里是否是一个纸上谈兵的知识分子，但我的理论是其中一些必须追溯到我们史前时期的社会事件，这与禁忌有关。
And society was initially kind of organized by a series of taboos, right?
社会最初是由一系列禁忌组成的，对吗？
Most notably, the taboo on incest.
最值得注意的是乱伦的禁忌。
And what happened, this is not just my theory, it's the theory of Malinowski.
发生了什么，这不仅仅是我的理论，这是马林诺夫斯基的理论。
Is that how you pronounce it?
你是这么发音的吗？
So the moment a taboo enters the human brain, like you're not supposed to sleep with this woman, the desire arises inside of you to actually sleep with that woman.
因此，当禁忌进入人类大脑的那一刻，就像你不应该和这个女人睡觉一样，你内心就会产生真正和那个女人睡觉的欲望。
The sense of no, the sense that this is prohibited, stirs the desire, stirs the contrary impulses in humans.
不的感觉，这是被禁止的感觉，会激起欲望，激起人类相反的冲动。
And we can be very, what's the word, perverse creatures, right?
我们可以是非常，用什么词来形容，反常的生物，对吧？
So if you've ever tried to suppress a thought, you realize that it keeps coming up.
所以，如果你曾经试图压抑一个想法，你就会意识到它不断出现。
You can't suppress it.
你无法抑制它。
Don't think of an elephant, Andrew.
别想大象，安德鲁。
Whatever you do, don't think of an elephant.
无论你做什么，都不要想着大象。
You're thinking of it because you can't help it, right?
你之所以这么想，是因为你无能为力，对吧？
The idea that you're not supposed to desire this person stirs that actual desire.
你不应该对这个人产生欲望的想法激起了你真正的欲望。
So I believe the sense of something being taboo and transgressive is the ultimate kind of origin of our desire for seduction.
所以我相信，某种事物的禁忌和越界感是我们诱惑欲望的最终根源。
But seduction involves vulnerability.
但诱惑涉及脆弱性。
It involves somebody gets under our skin, right?
这涉及到有人触怒我们，对吧？
And to do that, we have to let them in.
为此，我们必须让他们进来。
So the person being seduced is in some ways, to a degree, complicit.
因此，被引诱的人在某种程度上是同谋。
Because if you just put up a wall and you said, "No, I'm not going to be seduced," nothing will happen.
因为如果你只是竖起一堵墙，然后说：“不，我不会被诱惑”，那么什么都不会发生。
But you have a vulnerability.
但你有一个弱点。
You're letting that person into your psyche, into your inner space.
你让那个人进入你的心灵，进入你的内心空间。
The paradigm for that is early childhood.
其范例是幼儿期。
So Freud talks a lot about this, so I don't know if people still believe in Freud anymore, but-
所以弗洛伊德对此谈了很多，所以我不知道人们是否还相信弗洛伊德，但是-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I certainly do.
我当然知道。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
But yeah.
但是是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A genius of both psychology and physiology.
心理学和生理学的天才。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
For sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wrong about a lot of things, did a lot of things he shouldn't have done.
做错了很多事情，做了很多不该做的事情。
Let's acknowledge that.
让我们承认这一点。
I think everyone would agree that sleeping with your patients and being a cocaine addict, bad ideas.
我想每个人都会同意与病人睡觉和成为可卡因成瘾者是坏主意。
But at the same time, he had near supernatural levels of insight and brilliance into human nature.
但与此同时，他对人性有着近乎超自然的洞察力和才华。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Did he sleep with his patients?
他和他的病人睡过吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I believe he did.
我相信他做到了。
But if I just-
但如果我只是——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
He had like-
他有喜欢——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
threw that on him without him doing it, then forgive me.
在他没有做的情况下就把它扔给他，然后原谅我。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Well, he certainly had emotional attachments to his patients that he shouldn't have had.
嗯，他确实对病人有不应该有的情感依恋。
I don't know if he slept with them.
我不知道他是否和他们一起睡过。
He very well might have.
他很可能有。
But his idea was that the child is seduced by the parent.
但他的想法是孩子被父母引诱了。
You're in extremely vulnerable position, right?
你处于极其脆弱的境地，对吧？
Your life depends on them, and they're seducing you with their energy.
你的生活取决于他们，他们用他们的能量引诱你。
You're letting them in, right?
你让他们进来，对吗？
And that kind of creates a pattern for the rest of your life.
这会为你的余生创造一种模式。
And So for instance, the feeling of being carried by your father and just being taken around physically is a form of seduction, because you don't know what he's going to do to you.
举个例子，被你父亲抱着的感觉，只是身体上被带着到处走动的感觉，就是一种诱惑，因为你不知道他会对你做什么。
You're very excited.
你很兴奋。
You want that surprise.
你想要那个惊喜。
Right?
正确的？
And to me, it's related to the seduction of a story.
对我来说，这与故事的诱惑有关。
Stories are very seducing to us.
故事对我们来说非常有吸引力。
We don't know where they're taking us.
我们不知道他们要带我们去哪里。
We don't know what the next chapter is, what's going to happen to this character or not.
我们不知道下一章是什么，这个角色会发生什么。
The surprise lowers our resistance and opens our mind up to what's going to happen next, is a form of seduction.
惊喜会降低我们的抵抗力，让我们对接下来将要发生的事情敞开心扉，这是一种诱惑。
Fairy tales, the stories you were reading as a child, your interactions with your parents, they're deeply, deeply ingrained in you.
童话故事，你小时候读过的故事，你与父母的互动，它们都深深地烙印在你的心里。
You cannot be seduced unless you are vulnerable.
除非你脆弱，否则你不会被诱惑。
Right?
正确的？
And so I like to switch it around and get it out of the negative connotations.
所以我喜欢改变它并摆脱它的负面含义。
Being vulnerable is actually a positive trait.
脆弱实际上是一种积极的特质。
I think a lot of people now in the world today, because things are so harsh and invasive, that people have become too invulnerable.
我认为当今世界上有很多人，因为事情是如此残酷和具有侵略性，人们变得太无懈可击了。
They don't want to let anything in, right?
他们不想让任何东西进来，对吗？
And this now infects their relationships with other people.
这现在影响了他们与其他人的关系。
They don't want to be influenced.
他们不想受到影响。
They want to be strong inside of themselves.
他们希望自己内心强大。
They're afraid of giving in to the other person, of surrendering to their influence.
他们害怕屈服于他人，害怕屈服于他们的影响。
But it's actually a delightful feeling to surrender to the power of another person and then reverse that charge and have them surrender to your power.
但屈服于另一个人的力量，然后扭转这种指控，让他们屈服于你的力量，实际上是一种令人愉快的感觉。
So when I'm reading a writer, and sometimes they completely seduce me, like Friedrich Nietzsche is one of my favorite writers, I let go of everything.
因此，当我阅读一位作家的作品时，有时他们完全诱惑了我，就像弗里德里希·尼采是我最喜欢的作家之一一样，我放弃了一切。
I let him enter my brain, and I'm completely seduced.
我让他进入我的大脑，我完全被诱惑了。
I let him lead me along.
我让他带我走。
But then I encounter writers that I don't like at all.
但后来我遇到了我根本不喜欢的作家。
I'll mention one, it's probably not a good thing, but Steven Pinker.
我要提一个，这可能不是一件好事，但是史蒂文·平克（Steven Pinker）。
I don't like Steven Pinker.
我不喜欢史蒂文·平克。
I find him really annoying, okay?
我觉得他真的很烦人好吗？
But I force myself to try and find a way to be seduced by him, to let him into my brain, to see where he's coming from, to open myself to the possibility that he could be correct.
但我强迫自己尝试找到一种方法来被他诱惑，让他进入我的大脑，看看他来自哪里，让自己接受他可能是正确的可能性。
So vulnerability, letting people into your mental space, is a form of intelligence.
因此，让人们进入你的心理空间的脆弱性是一种智力形式。
It's a kind of an emotional and an intellectual intelligence.
这是一种情感和智力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And forgive me for interrupting, but I think it also implies a level of confidence, because empathy or allowing oneself to be vulnerable to the point where you're seduced by something, by definition, if you're choosing to do it, implies that you also have the confidence that you can get back to yourself afterwards.
请原谅我打断，但我认为这也意味着一定程度的自信，因为同理心或让自己变得脆弱到被某件事引诱的地步，根据定义，如果你选择这样做，意味着你也有信心事后可以回到自己身边。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Of course.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
That you're not going to get lost-
保证你不会迷路——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Of course
当然
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the circumstances.
在这种情况下。
That you're not going to be hijacked to the point of no return.
你不会被劫持到无法回头的地步。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or in some way that's detrimental to you.
或者以某种方式对你不利。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, I'm sounding really nerdy here.
所以，我在这里听起来真的很书呆子。
It's collinear with confidence in many ways.
它在很多方面都与信心共线。
Sure.
当然。
Take my mind and take it where you will, because I know I can come back at any time.
随心所欲，随心所欲，因为我知道我可以随时回来。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Right.
对。
And the same thing in a physical seduction, in a romantic sense, right?
在身体诱惑和浪漫意义上也是如此，对吗？
You're opening yourself up to the charm, to the energy of the other person, but if they start displaying dark energy and you see that they're abusive or something is wrong, you have the ability to retreat.
你正在向他人的魅力和能量敞开自己，但如果他们开始表现出黑暗能量，而你发现他们有虐待行为或出了什么问题，你就有能力撤退。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, there it gets tricky because the-
好吧，事情就变得棘手了，因为——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
It gets very tricky
事情变得非常棘手
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
Well, because the attachment systems, which are also rooted in childhood, oftentimes can overwhelm one's ability to recover oneself.
嗯，因为依恋系统也植根于童年，常常会压倒一个人恢复自我的能力。
If I had a dollar for every time someone that I knew in my life saying, "I know they're bad for me, but we just can't seem to disengage." You hear about that all the time.
如果我一生中认识的人每次对我说“我知道他们对我不好，但我们似乎就是无法摆脱”，我就能得到一美元。你总是听到这样的事。
You see court cases about this that are public, and you just go, "Why didn't they just walk away from one another?"
当你看到有关此事的公开法庭案件时，你就会问：“他们为什么不离开彼此呢？”
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Of course.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because once those attachment systems are locked in-
因为一旦这些附着系统被锁定——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it almost becomes, and here metaphorically speaking, like a parent-child relationship.
打个比方来说，它几乎变成了一种亲子关系。
You can't suddenly decide your parents weren't your parents-
你不能突然决定你的父母不是你的父母-
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
simply because you know better now.
只是因为你现在更了解了。
Right?
正确的？
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You are forever stricken with the reality that they were, and they-
你永远被他们的现实所震惊，而他们——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
had an influence.
有影响。
And I think that that attachment system is a force that tugs pretty hard.
我认为这种依恋系统是一种非常强大的力量。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
And a lot of women have written to me, since "The Art of Seduction," sort of saying that their boyfriend or husband was applying some of these tactics on them, and it was very painful, and they were kind of a little bit angry at me for it.
自从《诱惑的艺术》之后，很多女性都写信给我，说她们的男朋友或丈夫正在对她们运用这些策略，这非常痛苦，她们为此对我有点生气。
But then they kind of realized that they didn't learn it really from my book.
但后来他们意识到他们并没有真正从我的书中学到这一点。
It was already kind of wired in them.
它已经在他们身上扎根了。
But that reading about these tactics and these strategies actually helped them to recognize what their husband or boyfriend was doing to them, the manipulation and the games that were being played.
但阅读这些策略和策略实际上帮助他们认识到他们的丈夫或男朋友对他们做了什么，以及正在玩的操纵和游戏。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do men write to you and talk about the seductive adornments that women have used to bring them into relationship as well, or are you typically hearing from women?
男人是否会写信给你谈论女人用来让他们建立关系的诱人装饰，或者你通常会收到女人的来信？
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
I mostly hear from women complaining about men and how they've abused them and how they used-
我大多听到女人抱怨男人以及他们如何虐待他们以及他们如何使用-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see
我明白了
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
...
...
some of the strategies I don't deny have a slightly nefarious edge to them because I didn't want to write a book about seduction that doesn't have that taboo element because I say seduction involves the taboo, and I didn't want to censor myself.
我不否认有些策略有点邪恶，因为我不想写一本没有禁忌元素的关于诱惑的书，因为我说诱惑涉及禁忌，而且我不想审查自己。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But female-to-male seduction clearly also exists.
但女性对男性的诱惑显然也存在。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Very much so.
非常如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I acknowledge that it's less often is it physically abusive.
我承认身体虐待的情况并不常见。
But from an early age, both boys and girls, men and women, are coached by society on the sorts of seductive tactics and adornments, right?
但从很小的时候起，无论男孩女孩、男人女人，都会接受社会的各种诱惑手段和装饰，对吗？
Everything from makeup, perfume, hairstyles, cars, watches, jewelry, expression, power displays of any kind.
从化妆品、香水、发型、汽车、手表、珠宝、表情、任何类型的力量展示。
That stuff, the world's filled with that stuff.
那些东西，世界上充满了那些东西。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah, but men are generally kind of happy when a woman seduces them, right?
是的，但是当女人引诱男人时，男人通常会感到高兴，对吗？
Unless they're after their money or something like that, which happens.
除非他们是为了钱或类似的事情，这种情况就会发生。
But generally, the sense, I talk about this in the first chapter about sirens, which I say is the quintessential archetype of the female seductress, the kind of half-human, half-bird creature on a rock singing so beautifully that you have to jump in the water, and then they kill you.
但总的来说，我在关于塞壬的第一章中谈到了这一点，我说塞壬是女性诱惑者的典型原型，是一种半人半鸟的生物，在岩石上唱歌，唱得如此美妙，以至于你必须跳进水里，然后它们就会杀了你。
And so the idea is that Men want to let go because men have to be so in control, so powerful.
所以我们的想法是，男人想要放手，因为男人必须如此有控制力，如此强大。
They have to project this image.
他们必须投射这个形象。
They have a secret desire to let go and be almost dominated by a very powerful woman.
他们有一种秘密的愿望，想要放手，几乎被一个非常有权势的女人所控制。
A lot of men have that.
很多男人都有这样的情况。
And I talk about some of the most powerful men in history, Julius Caesar, Mark Antony, Joe DiMaggio, all these men, very masculine men, who've fallen for very feminine, siren-like women and been completely dominated by them.
我谈到了历史上一些最有权势的男人，朱利叶斯·凯撒、马克·安东尼、乔·迪马吉奥，所有这些男人，非常阳刚的男人，都爱上了非常女性化的、海妖般的女人，并完全被她们所统治。
And they actually kind of enjoy the process because it's like a sense of, "I can let go.
他们实际上有点享受这个过程，因为这就像一种感觉，“我可以放手。
I can enter this totally sensual, physical world, and it's extremely pleasing.
我可以进入这个完全感性的物质世界，这是非常令人愉悦的。
It's like another realm outside of my kind of cold, masculine world." So I don't really get men complaining too much about women who've seduced them, honestly.
这就像我那种冷酷、阳刚的世界之外的另一个境界。”所以说实话，我并没有让男人过多抱怨引诱他们的女人。
It's usually the other way around.
通常情况恰恰相反。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've heard before, and I promise this is not an original idea that I'm pretending to have heard elsewhere, that my friend asked me to ask sort of question, that in all sexual exchanges, there's a power exchange.
我以前听说过，我保证这不是我假装在其他地方听到的一个原创想法，我的朋友让我问一些问题，在所有的性交换中，都有权力交换。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Definitely.
绝对是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe you could elaborate on that, because as you were describing some of the seductive power dynamics that exist, a phrase that I've heard before came to mind, that at first made me chuckle but then made me think quite deeply about this issue of the relationship between sexual and power dynamics, which is this notion of topping from the bottom.
也许你可以详细说明这一点，因为当你描述一些存在的诱人的权力动态时，我以前听过的一个短语浮现在脑海中，一开始让我咯咯笑，但后来让我深入思考性与权力动态之间关系的问题，这就是从下往上的概念。
If one is giving someone else the impression that they are more powerful, by virtue of the word giving, they actually hold some power, right?
如果一个人给别人留下了他们更有权力的印象，那么凭借“给予”这个词，他们实际上拥有一些权力，对吗？
Power can be given or taken, but oftentimes, seductive exchanges and sexual exchanges and romantic exchanges, in particular, are about both people buying into a temporary illusion.
权力可以给予或夺取，但通常情况下，诱人的交流、性交流和浪漫的交流，尤其是双方都陷入了暂时的幻想。
Let's pretend that you're in charge when actually I'm in charge.
让我们假设你负责，而实际上是我负责。
Okay, but I know that you think that you're in charge.
好吧，但我知道你认为你是负责人。
Okay, let's just pretend none of that exists and just do X, right?
好吧，让我们假装这些都不存在，然后做 X，对吗？
And I think this is another example of covert contracts, and it's one that actually can potentially create a lot of problems post-hoc, right?
我认为这是秘密合同的另一个例子，它实际上可能会造成很多事后问题，对吗？
But I think the relationship between sex, romance, and power is an important area to explore in the context of this.
但我认为性、浪漫和权力之间的关系是在此背景下值得探索的重要领域。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Well, I wrote "The Art of Seduction" with the idea that it was an art invented by women.
嗯，我写《诱惑的艺术》的想法是，它是女性发明的艺术。
It was invented by women who had no power, essentially, socially, politically, in any sense of the word, and domestically, right?
它是由女性发明的，她们本质上在社会上、政治上、任何意义上、在家庭上都没有权力，对吗？
But the one power that they could wield over a man was through sex, some physical attraction.
但她们能对男人施加的唯一一种力量就是通过性，某种身体上的吸引力。
And so they developed this art of kind of luring a man into their world through various theatrical effects, Cleopatra being kind of the archetype of this.
因此，他们发展了这种通过各种戏剧效果引诱男人进入他们世界的艺术，克利奥帕特拉就是这种艺术的原型。
And then luring the powerful man into this world, he has the illusion that he's the one pursuing her, but in fact, she is the one controlling the dynamic.
然后将强大的男人引诱到这个世界，他有一种错觉，就是他在追求她，但实际上，她才是掌控动态的人。
So oftentimes, the person who appears to be the weaker one in the relationship, who's not doing the pursuing, is actually inviting the pursuing, is actually leading the other person on.
很多时候，在关系中看似较弱的人，不主动追求，实际上是在邀请对方追求，实际上是在引导对方。
So there's a lot of appearance games going on, and you can never really figure out who exactly is in control of the dynamic.
因此，有很多外观游戏正在进行，你永远无法真正弄清楚到底谁在控制动态。
Because one person is allowing the other person to lead them on, but the fact that you're allowing them is a degree of power, is a degree of control, right?
因为一个人允许另一个人引导他们，但事实上你允许他们是一种程度的权力，是一种程度的控制，对吗？
So it's very hard to figure out.
所以很难弄清楚。
And sex and power and romantic relationships are very much intertwined in us, physically, emotionally, neurologically.
性、权力和浪漫关系在我们身体上、情感上、神经上都紧密地交织在一起。
You can't avoid it, right?
你无法避免它，对吧？
And so I think it's kind of dishonest to say that none of that exists, that there's some egalitarian paradise out of there when it's really not wired in us for that kind of relationship.
因此，我认为说这些都不存在，还有某种平等主义的天堂存在，这是一种不诚实的说法，而实际上我们内心并没有建立这种关系。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's a recent scientific publication/factoid that I wanted to share with you in this context because I'd like your thoughts on it.
我想在这方面与您分享最近的一份科学出版物/事实，因为我想了解您对此的想法。
David Anderson, who's a phenomenal neurobiologist, he's been a guest on this podcast before.
大卫·安德森（David Anderson）是一位杰出的神经生物学家，他以前曾是这个播客的嘉宾。
He's a professor at Caltech, studies basically the functions of the hypothalamus.
他是加州理工学院的教授，主要研究下丘脑的功能。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So things like aggression, mating-
所以像攻击性、交配这样的事情——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and things of that sort, and does it so with great detail.
诸如此类的事情，并且做得非常详细。
He's a virtuoso of the hypothalamus.
他是下丘脑的大师。
And he published a paper two years ago showing that indeed there are neural circuits in the brain of animals, and presumably in humans as well, that control sexual mounting behavior.
他两年前发表了一篇论文，表明动物大脑中确实存在控制性行为的神经回路，想必人类也一样。
But that there is actually a separate circuit for purely non-sexual mounting and physical power over that's expressed in animals.
但实际上存在一个单独的电路，用于纯粹非性的安装和身体力量，而不是动物所表达的。
And anyone that's ever owned a dog and gone to the dog park will see same-sex mounting between dogs or mounting between dogs that has apparently no sexual endpoint.
任何养过狗并去过狗公园的人都会看到狗之间的同性攀爬，或者狗之间明显没有性终点的攀爬。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And in exploring this literature and some talking to David about it, it's very clear that there are neural circuits that have everything to do with essentially one animal of a species getting on top of the other animal, usually from behind, oftentimes scruffing or biting the back of the neck and saying, "I control you." It's often done in a playful context, especially between animals, not always aggressive, but there's a certain element of aggressive to it.
在探索这些文献以及与大卫谈论它时，很明显，有一些神经回路与本质上同一个物种的一种动物骑在另一种动物身上有关，通常是从后面，经常扭颈或咬住后颈并说：“我控制你了。”它通常是在好玩的环境中进行的，尤其是在动物之间，并不总是具有攻击性，但其中存在一定的攻击性元素。
But it essentially says, "I decide whether or not you are mobile or not for this moment." And this is very important.
但它实质上是在说，“我决定你此刻是否可以移动。”这非常重要。
I want to emphasize this.
我想强调这一点。
This is a circuit that is entirely separate from all of the reflexes associated with sexual behavior in males and females.
这是一个完全独立于与男性和女性性行为相关的所有反射的回路。
I find this to be fascinating.
我觉得这很有趣。
Because we hear about power over, right?
因为我们听说过权力之上，对吗？
And we hear about power, and we think about physical power over.
我们听说过权力，我们想到的是身体上的权力。
But the idea that something as primitive as mounting, just like something as primitive as biting or as striking has its own unique set of circuits in the brain, I think substantiates everything that you put in your books about power and maybe even seduction as well.
但是，像安装这样原始的东西，就像咬或攻击这样原始的东西在大脑中都有自己独特的一套回路一样，我认为证实了你在书中提出的关于权力甚至诱惑的一切。
So as I just kind of toss that out there for consideration, I wonder if you have any reflections on it.
因此，当我只是将其抛在那里供考虑时，我想知道您是否对此有任何想法。
If not, feel free to just say, "I don't," but of course.
如果没有，请随意说“我不”，但是当然。
But to me, this was a really important discovery because I think everyone looks at mounting behavior and says, "Oh, that has to be sexual," and sometimes it's-
但对我来说，这是一个非常重要的发现，因为我认为每个人都会看到越来越多的行为并说，“哦，那必须是性的，”有时它是-
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Oh, I see what you mean
哦，我明白你的意思
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but it's not.
但事实并非如此。
There seem to be a host of neural circuits in the brain that are really about defining who's on top, literally, that has nothing to do with sex.
大脑中似乎有许多神经回路实际上是用来定义谁在上面，从字面上看，这与性别无关。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
I'm sure that's true.
我确信这是真的。
I've never read anything about that, but I can say that I wrote a chapter in my new book about love, and that's a different thing than seduction.
我从来没有读过任何相关内容，但我可以说我在我的新书中写了一个关于爱情的章节，这与诱惑是不同的事情。
And I was trying to come up with an idea of love that does have an element of equality, that doesn't have this power dynamic going on in it.
我试图提出一种爱的理念，它确实具有平等的元素，但其中不存在这种权力动态。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, I love that.
哦，我喜欢那个。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
And kind of like the antithesis of my "Art of Seduction," where I'm almost contradicting myself.
这有点像我的“诱惑的艺术”的对立面，我几乎自相矛盾。
And I was going into the biology of it, and even into the physics of it.
我正在研究它的生物学，甚至物理学。
So there's a famous French biologist whose name escapes me, I'm sorry, I can't remember, from the '20s and '30s.
有一位著名的法国生物学家，我记不起他的名字了，抱歉，我不记得了，来自 20 世纪 20 年代和 30 年代。
And he was studying paramecium.
他正在研究草履虫。
And he found that he was studying them, they're in these ponds, et cetera.
他发现他正在研究它们，它们就在这些池塘里，等等。
And he said that there was these moments where these single-celled organisms were suddenly coupling.
他说，在某些时刻，这些单细胞生物会突然耦合。
They were all joining together, just one to one, and they were absorbing the membrane of one inside the other.
它们都一一结合在一起，并且将其中一个的膜吸收到另一个的内部。
And then once one couple did that, all the paramecium started joining up together.
一旦一对夫妇这样做了，所有的草履虫就开始聚集在一起。
Then they would sink to the bottom of the pond.
然后它们就会沉到池塘底部。
And paramecium don't reproduce through sex.
草履虫不通过性繁殖。
They reproduce through dividing themselves.
它们通过分裂来繁殖。
Right?
正确的？
Self-reproduction.
自我繁殖。
And so he was saying that the desire to couple, to connect to someone so deeply where one is absorbed in the other, is biologically wired into us.
所以他说，对伴侣的渴望，对与某人如此深入的联系，让一个人全神贯注的渴望，是我们生来就有的。
It goes back millions and millions and millions of years.
它可以追溯到数百万年前。
And it's a desire, essentially, a biological desire for love.
从本质上讲，这是一种对爱的生理渴望。
Right?
正确的？
And it's an energy that permeates all the...
这是一种渗透到一切的能量……
It's not just about power and hierarchies, and that he was showing other creatures that had something similar going on.
这不仅仅是权力和等级制度的问题，而且他向其他生物展示了类似的情况。
And in physics, we talk about entanglement, and we also talk about matter.
在物理学中，我们谈论纠缠，我们也谈论物质。
If matter isn't opposed by a lot of kinetic energy, it joins together.
如果物质没有受到大量动能的反对，它就会结合在一起。
Particles join together to form matter, et cetera.
粒子结合在一起形成物质，等等。
So there's something in the universe that's trying to connect things to each other.
所以宇宙中有某种东西试图将事物相互连接起来。
So there's this kind of energy that exists in the world where we have a deep need to connect to somebody outside of those power dynamics.
因此，世界上存在着这种能量，我们迫切需要与那些权力动态之外的人建立联系。
Right?
正确的？
Where there's a degree of equality, where we're drawn to each other and we let go of the ego games, we let go of the playing, we kind of surmount our own physiology, our own hypothalamus, and we engage in this, I call it love sublime.
当存在一定程度的平等时，当我们彼此吸引时，我们放弃了自我游戏，我们放弃了游戏，我们超越了我们自己的生理机能，我们自己的下丘脑，我们投入其中，我称之为崇高的爱。
And it involves the physical part.
它涉及到物理部分。
The sexual part is the trigger for it.
性部分是它的触发因素。
Because when you have sex with someone, your body is suddenly permeable to their energy in a way that you cannot control.
因为当你与某人发生性关系时，你的身体会突然以一种你无法控制的方式渗透到他们的能量中。
It releases all kinds of chemicals in the brain that are very powerful.
它会在大脑中释放出各种非常强大的化学物质。
And oftentimes, that sense is too powerful and you react, and you're afraid of it, and you pull back.
通常，这种感觉太强大，你会做出反应，你会害怕它，然后你会退缩。
But if you don't react and you go further, then the mind also becomes permeable to the other person and their energy and their desire.
但如果你不做出反应并且走得更远，那么头脑也会变得可以渗透到另一个人、他们的能量和他们的欲望中。
And so then it kind of creates a spiraling effect where the physical and the mental connection reaches this state that I call love sublime.
因此，它会产生一种螺旋式的效应，使身体和精神的联系达到我称之为崇高的爱的状态。
Now, it's an ideal.
现在看来，这是一个理想。
It doesn't really exist that much out there in the world today, but there are stories in history that illustrate it, and I believe it is a biological necessity for us to feel a deep sense of connection.
当今世界上这种情况并不存在，但历史上有一些故事可以说明这一点，而且我相信，我们感受到深刻的联系感是一种生物学上的必要性。
We normally ascribe that to religion, to God, et cetera.
我们通常将其归因于宗教、上帝等等。
But I maintain the essence of love, the model for love is between two human beings, straight or homosexual, doesn't matter.
但我坚持爱情的本质，爱情的模型是两个人之间，异性恋还是同性恋，都没关系。
And that feeling of surmounting our own neurology, our own system, and entering this zone is deeply satisfying.
超越我们自己的神经学、我们自己的系统并进入这个区域的感觉是非常令人满意的。
We all want it.
我们都想要它。
And it has to involve letting go of the power dynamics, and everything being equal.
它必须涉及放弃权力动态，并且一切都是平等的。
It's not that the other person is exactly like you.
并不是说对方和你一模一样。
You recognize their difference.
你认识到他们的区别。
But as far as being worthy of attention, as being worthy and respected, you leave all that other stuff outside.
但就值得关注、值得和尊重而言，你把所有其他的东西都抛在了外面。
So there is a zone that's possible that's outside this power dynamic that we're talking about.
因此，有一个区域可能位于我们正在讨论的权力动态之外。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm excited that you're writing about this.
我很高兴你正在写这篇文章。
So this is for your next book?
这是你的下一本书吗？
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, I'm very excited.
哦，我很兴奋。
I couldn't help but think of some of the parallels between what you describe and what we're observing nowadays in the landscape of politics and social dynamics, where clearly there is no setting aside of egos.
我情不自禁地想到你所描述的内容与我们当今在政治和社会动态领域所观察到的情况之间的一些相似之处，在这些领域中显然没有抛开自我。
Both sides feel attacked.
双方都感觉受到了攻击。
Everyone in between feels confused, like, "Why do I have to pick a side?" And there seems to be no hint of a future where people are setting down their swords.
中间的每个人都感到困惑，比如“为什么我必须选边站？”似乎没有任何迹象表明未来人们会放下剑。
Which means, if we were to go with your earlier definition, which I like a lot, that nobody feels safe enough to be vulnerable Enough to allow the union of people to occur, which is just a way of rewording a bunch of other things, and not nearly as eloquently as you described it.
这意味着，如果我们遵循你之前的定义（我非常喜欢这个定义），那么没有人会感到安全到足以让人们团结起来，这只是改写其他一些事情的一种方式，并不像你描述的那么雄辩。
But if setting aside of power dynamics and making oneself vulnerable is the key to accessing love-
但如果抛开权力动力、让自己变得脆弱是获得爱的关键——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the romantic context, surely, but also in the societal context, what are the channels for that?
当然，在浪漫的背景下，而且在社会的背景下，有什么渠道呢？
I suppose there is the argument, not mine, that everyone should just take a boatload of psychedelics and see the interconnectedness of things, but that seems like an unrealistic route.
我想有人认为每个人都应该服用一船迷幻药并看到事物之间的相互联系，但这似乎是一条不切实际的路线，而不是我的观点。
I just don't see that being 12th-grade graduation curriculum, nor do I think it would be healthy.
我只是不认为这是 12 年级的毕业课程，也不认为它是健康的。
To be clear, I think that we'd end up with a lot of expression of problems there.
需要明确的是，我认为我们最终会在那里表达很多问题。
But short of a magic substance that could increase feelings of connectedness among everyone simultaneously, how are you going to save humanity, Robert?
但是，如果没有一种可以同时增强每个人之间联系感的神奇物质，你将如何拯救人类，罗伯特？
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Well, because I'm concerned about young people in particular with hookup culture, with pornography, et cetera.
嗯，因为我担心年轻人，尤其是勾搭文化、色情作品等等。
It's kind of rewiring the human brain, and we're losing what I was just describing.
这有点像是人类大脑的重新布线，我们正在失去我刚才描述的东西。
And I see, particularly, a lot of young people, and I don't blame them because they've grown up in a world that's very chaotic and very hostile.
我尤其看到很多年轻人，我不会责怪他们，因为他们是在一个非常混乱和充满敌意的世界中长大的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could I say, I think it's, and not to be nitpicky here, but I love what you just said.
我可以说，我认为是这样，并且不是在这里挑剔，但我喜欢你刚才所说的。
I think in my mind, things like that are hijacking the hardwiring of the brain.
我认为在我看来，类似的事情正在劫持大脑的硬连线。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm just-
而我只是——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
You're right
你是对的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
no, and I'm not, again-
不，我又不是——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
It's true
这是真的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
forgive me.
原谅我。
The audience is probably going, "Well, like-"
观众可能会说，“嗯，就像——”
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
You can't really rewire the brain like that, so.
你不能像那样真正重新连接大脑，所以。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Well, I think we can expand and rewire upon our hardwiring, but so much of what you talk about in your books is about finding one's essence, but then also what I love about your books so much, among many other things, is that it's about that dance between the hardwiring and the possible of through effort.
嗯，我认为我们可以扩展和重新连接我们的硬连线，但是你在书中谈论的很多内容都是关于寻找一个人的本质，但我非常喜欢你的书，除其他外，是它是关于硬连线和通过努力的可能性之间的舞蹈。
So anyway, forgive me for being-
所以无论如何，请原谅我——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
No, it's very accurate.
不，这是非常准确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So yeah.
所以是的。
How do you get us out of this?
你如何让我们摆脱困境？
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Well, you're putting a big burden on me, but-
好吧，你给我带来了很大的负担，但是-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I am, but I think you're up to it.
我是，但我认为你能胜任。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Well, I try to do it in this chapter because I wanted to seduce the reader into the idea that this is something extremely pleasurable and extremely healthy, and the feeling of being vulnerable is a very positive attribute that will infect not just your romantic relationships, but will infect you mentally.
好吧，我试图在本章中这样做，因为我想让读者相信这是一件非常令人愉快和非常健康的事情，而脆弱的感觉是一个非常积极的属性，它不仅会影响你的浪漫关系，还会影响你的精神。
So creative people are extremely vulnerable.
因此，有创造力的人非常容易受到伤害。
They're extremely vulnerable to ideas.
他们极易受到想法的影响。
They're extremely vulnerable to the environment.
它们极易受到环境的影响。
And closing yourself off into your own ego, into yourself, so the chapter is called "Escape the Prison of the Ego." And you're kind of trapped inside of yourself and your own thoughts and your own desires, and it's like a prison.
把你自己封闭在你自己的自我之中，封闭在你自己之中，所以这一章被称为“逃离自我的监狱”。你有点被困在你自己、你自己的想法和你自己的欲望里面，这就像一座监狱。
It's enclosing you, and you want to escape somehow.
它包围了你，你想以某种方式逃脱。
And you escape through drugs, you escape through porn, but it doesn't lead to actually escaping.
你通过毒品逃避，通过色情逃避，但这并不会导致真正的逃避。
You want to be able to let go of the self and get out of this prison that you're in, right?
你希望能够放下自我，逃离这个你所处的监狱，对吗？
And so it's a desire that we all have.
所以这是我们所有人的愿望。
And so I wanted to frame it as this incredibly positive dynamic that you can engage in.
因此，我想将其描述为您可以参与的令人难以置信的积极动力。
And the ability to be vulnerable to other people, to open yourself up and to say that, "Yeah, they might hurt me, but I'm strong enough to take it.
以及对他人表现出脆弱的能力，敞开心扉并说：“是的，他们可能会伤害我，但我足够坚强，可以承受。
And if they hurt me, I'll learn from it and I'll rebound." And I know that's a bit naive on my part, but I want you to at least have that feeling, because a lot of young people write to me and they say, "I can't fall in love anymore.
如果他们伤害了我，我会从中吸取教训，然后反弹。”我知道这对我来说有点天真，但我希望你至少有这种感觉，因为很多年轻人写信给我，他们说：“我不能再恋爱了。
I don't like that feeling.
我不喜欢那种感觉。
The loss of control is too much." And a lot of their behavior patterns are in creating this sense of control, which you can have when you're locked inside of yourself.
失控的程度太大了。”他们的很多行为模式都是为了创造这种控制感，当你把自己锁在自己的内心时，你就能拥有这种控制感。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hence overindulgence in pornography-
因此过度沉迷于色情作品——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and masturbation, et cetera, as a way to avoid the understandable fear about interrelational dynamics.
和手淫等等，作为避免对相互关系动态的可以理解的恐惧的一种方式。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
So, when you're young, you're idealistic, or at least a lot of young people are, and you have these dreams and these hopes.
所以，当你年轻的时候，你是有理想主义的，或者至少很多年轻人是，你有这些梦想，这些希望。
And to let go of this possibility, which is deeply pleasurable and deeply therapeutic to the human animal as a social animal, it's like the highest form of interaction that we can have.
放弃这种可能性，对于作为社会动物的人类来说是非常令人愉快和深刻的治疗，这就像我们可以拥有的最高形式的互动。
So my strategy in that chapter was to paint such a wonderful portrayal of the pleasures that are awaiting you by letting go of your defenses, of letting go of all of your natural resistance factors, and opening yourself up to other people, is a key to not just a romantic relationship, but to career success, to mental energy, to creativity, to being open in general, right?
因此，我在那一章中的策略是，通过放下你的防御，放下你所有的自然抵抗因素，并向其他人敞开心扉，描绘出等待着你的快乐的美妙写照，这不仅是浪漫关系的关键，也是职业成功、精神能量、创造力、总体开放的关键，对吗？
And so I don't think I could have a huge impact, but we'll see when the book comes out.
所以我不认为我能产生巨大的影响，但我们会看到这本书什么时候出版。
But I'm advocating that sense of opening yourself up to the universe, to the cosmos itself, as an energy that permeates the world.
但我提倡向宇宙、向宇宙本身开放自己，将自己视为一种渗透到世界的能量。
And so that you don't want the feeling of being closed inside of your ego, inside of yourself.
这样你就不会想要在你的自我、你自己的内部有被封闭的感觉。
I want to make it so you feel the pain of that, because you don't really feel the pain of it.
我想让你感受到其中的痛苦，因为你并没有真正感受到它的痛苦。
You feel like it's comfortable for you.
你感觉这对你来说很舒服。
But I want to make it clear to you that it's not comfortable.
但我想告诉你，这并不舒服。
It's deeply, deeply painful, and it's disconnecting you from some of the best experiences you can have in life.
这是非常非常痛苦的，它会让你失去生命中一些最好的经历。
So I have that strategy.
所以我有这个策略。
The only other hope I have is in the human spirit itself.
我唯一的希望就在于人类精神本身。
So a lot of this is being caused by social media, I believe, right?
我相信这很大程度上是由社交媒体造成的，对吗？
And the instant, and the kind of immediate gratification we can get in so many ways.
我们可以通过多种方式获得即时的、即时的满足。
And my hope is that young people get fed up and get disgusted with all this disconnection and alienation in their life, and that they hunger from actually something more communal More interactive, more real, as opposed to virtual.
我希望年轻人对生活中所有这些脱节和疏远感到厌倦和厌恶，他们渴望真正更具公共性、更具互动性、更真实的东西，而不是虚拟的东西。
And so that the human spirit can't be completely squashed by technology, et cetera.
这样人类的精神就不会被技术等完全压制。
So I have that hope because we've gone through these cycles before in history where people have become very invulnerable and very locked and closed, and suddenly there's an explosion, a creative explosion, like in the 1960s, like in the 1920s, like in 18th-century Europe with the Casanova, where seduction reached its kind of apogee, et cetera.
所以我有这样的希望，因为我们在历史上已经经历过这些周期，人们变得非常坚不可摧，非常封闭和封闭，突然之间爆发了，创造性的爆发，就像在 20 世纪 60 年代，就像在 1920 年代，就像在 18 世纪的欧洲卡萨诺瓦，那里的诱惑达到了顶峰，等等。
So it has kind of swung back and forth between these moments where humans get incredibly closed, and bitter, and partisan, and everything's conflict, and everyone's divisive, et cetera, and suddenly it goes in the opposite direction.
因此，它在这些时刻之间来回摇摆，在这些时刻中，人类变得极其封闭、痛苦、党派之争、一切都冲突、每个人都分裂等等，突然间它朝着相反的方向发展。
I have hope in that possibility, and I structured my chapter to perhaps sweep that a little bit along that tide and see if I can have any effect.
我对这种可能性抱有希望，因此我组织了这一章，或许可以沿着这股潮流稍微扫一下，看看是否能产生任何效果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I think what you just described in conversations like it and that stem from it are likely to have a tremendous effect.
嗯，我认为你刚才在类似的对话中所描述的以及由此产生的内容可能会产生巨大的影响。
I think it's exactly what's needed now, and certainly I'll be trying to amplify that message.
我认为这正是现在所需要的，当然我会努力扩大这一信息。
I agree with everything you said, and not just because you're sitting here as a guest-
我同意你所说的一切，不仅仅是因为你作为客人坐在这里-
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Oh, good
哦，好啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
on this podcast, but because it's clear to me that while power dynamics and seduction are wired into our human relations since the beginning of time, that we have reached a very challenging period in our history.
在这个播客上，但因为我很清楚，虽然权力动态和诱惑自古以来就融入了我们的人际关系，但我们已经到达了历史上一个非常具有挑战性的时期。
It's somewhat of a relief to me to know that it's happened before, but in a very different context.
知道以前也发生过这种事，但背景却截然不同，这让我松了口气。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Oh, goodness.
哦，天哪。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We hear a lot about the swinging back and forth of the pendulum.
我们听到很多关于钟摆来回摆动的事情。
Someone, in fact, Peter Attia, online physician's brother actually said, so we'll credit him, he said, "No, it's not a pendulum that swings back and forth.
事实上，有人，彼得·阿蒂亚，在线医生的兄弟实际上说过，所以我们相信他，他说，“不，这不是一个来回摆动的钟摆。
Unfortunately, now it's become a wrecking ball." So it's swinging back and forth and doing damage as it reaches its extremes.
不幸的是，现在它变成了一个破坏球。”因此，当它达到极限时，它会来回摆动并造成损害。
And I think that I also look forward to a time where people acknowledge the injustices around them and that have been done to them and others, but somehow are able to transcend that.
我认为我也期待有一天人们承认他们周围的不公正以及对他们和其他人所做的不公正，但以某种方式能够超越这一点。
And the word that I'd like to pick up on there is the word justice.
我想提到的词是“正义”。
It was pointed out to me by someone I respect very much that having a sense of justice is a wonderful and important thing, and as humans, it's important to how we structure society.
我非常尊敬的一个人向我指出，拥有正义感是一件美妙而重要的事情，作为人类，它对于我们如何构建社会很重要。
But I do think that a lot of the negative things that we see out there nowadays have something to do with the ready availability of pornography, high-density calorie food, et cetera, a bunch of things like that.
但我确实认为，我们现在看到的许多负面事物都与色情内容、高密度卡路里食物等的现成性有关，诸如此类。
But that one of the issues with social media, because it does have its positive aspects, but one of the negative issues in my mind is that it's a steady flow of examples of injustice.
但这是社交媒体的问题之一，因为它确实有其积极的方面，但在我看来，消极的问题之一是它不断出现不公正的例子。
So all day long, you're just seeing things that piss you off, and that piss other people off, and for different reasons.
所以一整天，你都会看到一些让你生气的事情，以及让其他人生气的事情，而且原因各不相同。
But what was pointed out to me is that one of the key things about a sense of injustice is to be able to determine whether or not there's anything that you should do about it.
但有人向我指出，关于不公正感的关键之一是能够确定您是否应该对此采取任何措施。
And I think that everyone now feels a bit hijacked by all the injustices we see because we feel like, well, we're supposed to do something about it.
我认为现在每个人都感觉有点被我们所看到的所有不公正行为所劫持，因为我们觉得，好吧，我们应该对此做点什么。
But it may be that while we can't let every injustice pass, that being bombarded all day long with things that upset us is hijacking our creativity, it's distracting us from our deeper purpose, it's preventing a sense of vulnerability that would lead to a sense of deep love-
但也许，虽然我们不能让每一个不公正都过去，但整天被那些让我们心烦意乱的事情轰炸，可能会劫持我们的创造力，它会分散我们对更深层目标的注意力，它会阻止我们产生一种脆弱感，而这种脆弱感会导致一种深爱的感觉——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and on and on.
等等。
So I don't think it's just about the tantalizing lures of sex, food, and looking at bodies and hearing voices on social media.
所以我认为这不仅仅是性、食物、在社交媒体上观看身体和听到声音的诱人诱惑。
I think there is some validity to that, but that it's also that there's just ample opportunity to go down the gravitational pull forces of injustice.
我认为这有一定的道理，但也有足够的机会来消除不公正的引力。
Like, "Ugh, that's so frustrating.
就像，“呃，这太令人沮丧了。
Why are they doing that?" I catch myself doing that, talking to coworkers when I walk in about, "Did you see this thing?
他们为什么要这么做？”我发现自己正在这样做，当我走进去时与同事交谈，“你看到这个东西了吗？
This is crazy.
这太疯狂了。
What's going on with it?
这是怎么回事？
They're crazy." As opposed to thinking about anything else in that moment.
他们疯了。”而不是在那一刻思考其他任何事情。
And I try and yank myself out of that.
我试着把自己从这种状态中拉出来。
But I think that you're not going to do it alone, but I think you will play a major role in saving us from this.
但我认为你不会独自完成这件事，但我认为你将在拯救我们免于困境方面发挥重要作用。
I do.
我愿意。
I think because people just need to see themselves through a different lens-
我认为因为人们只需要通过不同的镜头来看待自己-
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and realize, "This is distracting me from who I'm supposed to be."
并意识到，“这分散了我的注意力，让我无法专注于我应该成为的人。”
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Well, a lot of what modern life should involve is the ability to ignore certain things.
嗯，现代生活应该包括忽略某些事情的能力。
So for instance, I don't know if you know that app Nextdoor.
举例来说，我不知道你是否知道 Nextdoor 这个应用程序。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, right.
哦，对了。
I used to have it.
我曾经有过。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But then I'd see all the packages being stolen off my neighbors' porches in Oakland.
但随后我会看到奥克兰邻居的门廊上的所有包裹都被偷了。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
God.
天哪。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then I started enjoying living in Oakland less, and I love the city of Oakland.
然后我开始不太喜欢奥克兰的生活，我喜欢奥克兰这座城市。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Ah.
啊。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's got its problems.
它有它的问题。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
I've lived in Oakland, too.
我也住在奥克兰。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It definitely has its problems.
它肯定有它的问题。
But as an East Bay kid, and went to school out there, and I have deep love for the East Bay, and it's always had those problems.
但作为一个东湾的孩子，在那里上学，我深深地爱着东湾，而且它总是存在这些问题。
But when you see stuff being stolen on your phone in the middle of the night when you wake up, it creates a sense that they're out to get my stuff.
但是，当你半夜醒来看到手机上的东西被偷时，就会产生一种他们想要拿走我的东西的感觉。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's terrible.
太可怕了。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Right.
对。
And so I have it in my spam filter, but I look at it, and every headline is people stealing, somebody broke into somebody's house, this person's dog bit me, there's this rabid dog going around, there's this homeless person that's yelling and attacking people, on and on and on.
所以我把它放在我的垃圾邮件过滤器里，但我看了一下，每个标题都是人们偷窃，有人闯入别人的房子，这个人的狗咬了我，有一只疯狗在四处走动，有一个无家可归的人在大喊大叫并攻击人们，等等。
I feel like I'm living in this neighborhood that's like Beirut or something in the 1980s.
我觉得我住在这个社区，就像贝鲁特或 20 世纪 80 年代的地方。
I can't even walk out my door.
我什至无法走出家门。
I don't look at Nextdoor anymore.
我不再看Nextdoor了。
I just ignore it.
我只是忽略它。
I don't open it ever because I know that they're designed algorithmically to put that in front of you every single time so that you click on it, because we respond to that kind of stuff naturally.
我从来没有打开过它，因为我知道它们的算法设计是每次都会将其放在您面前，以便您单击它，因为我们会自然地对此类内容做出反应。
We can't help it.
我们无能为力。
So you have to be able to shut that stuff up and look at what you can actually control in your life.
所以你必须能够闭嘴，看看生活中你能真正控制什么。
So I have this visceral dislike of what's going on in Ukraine, because I was in Ukraine recently, and I feel I've identified very strongly with their struggle, right?
所以我对乌克兰正在发生的事情有一种发自内心的厌恶，因为我最近在乌克兰，我觉得我非常认同他们的斗争，对吗？
And that outraged feeling, every time I read an article about it, it just drives me crazy.
那种愤怒的感觉，每次我读到有关它的文章时，都会让我发疯。
So the only thing is I stop reading as much as I can.
所以唯一的事情就是我尽可能停止阅读。
I read things that are kind of rational and intelligent, and I send them money, and I donate as much as I can, and I help them practically, but I don't allow myself to get that kind of outraged feeling all of the time.
我读一些理性和智慧的东西，我给他们寄钱，我尽我所能地捐款，我实际地帮助他们，但我不允许自己一直有那种愤怒的感觉。
So somebody has to write a book, somebody has to instruct us in what to ignore and what to actually pay attention to.
因此，必须有人写一本书，必须有人指导我们应该忽略什么以及应该真正关注什么。
So there are things that you can control, injustices that are out there that you could control by voting, by amassing a movement, by dealing with climate change.
因此，有些事情是你可以控制的，你可以通过投票、组织运动、应对气候变化来控制不公正现象。
Not by trying to recycle every little thing in your house, but actually doing something really much more macro in the world, joining a cause.
不是试图回收家里的每一件小东西，而是实际上在世界上做一些更宏观的事情，加入一项事业。
There are things you can do, and that's positive, and that's a way of channeling that kind of dark energy in you for a positive purpose.
你可以做一些事情，这是积极的，这是一种将你体内的黑暗能量引导到积极目的的方法。
But it's totally disruptive and it totally distracts you and weakens you and drains you of energy to fall into those rabbit holes and let yourself fall into them.
但这完全是破坏性的，它完全分散你的注意力，削弱你的力量，耗尽你的能量，让你掉进那些兔子洞里，让你自己掉进去。
So you have to learn the art of what to ignore and what not to pay attention to and understand that you're wired to see those kind of red alert buttons on Facebook or on Nextdoor or wherever they are.
因此，你必须学会忽略什么、不关注什么的艺术，并了解你很容易在 Facebook、Nextdoor 或任何地方看到这些红色警报按钮。
And it's just negative.
这只是负面的。
It's like a candy rush and you have to avoid it.
这就像一场糖果热潮，你必须避免它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's taking us away from our purpose, which we each have.
它使我们偏离了我们每个人都有的目标。
I think to me, that's the most deleterious aspect of it.
我认为对我来说，这是它最有害的方面。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Unless your purpose is to organize and be an activist.
除非您的目的是组织并成为一名活动家。
People ask me, I wrote a lot about, in my "Human Nature" book, about the shadow side of human nature, right?
人们问我，我在《人性》一书中写了很多关于人性阴暗面的内容，对吗？
And we all have it.
我们都拥有它。
We all have a dark side.
我们都有阴暗面。
We all have hidden aggression.
我们都有隐藏的攻击性。
We all have feelings of envy.
我们都有嫉妒的感觉。
We all have feelings of grandiosity.
我们都有一种宏伟的感觉。
We all have aggressive impulses.
我们都有攻击性的冲动。
How do you deal with it?
你如何处理它？
And I say the way to deal is to channel it into something positive and pro-social, and that can be putting it in your artwork, venting that anger and that outrage in something that people can identify with, or it can be in organizing something.
我说解决的方法是将其转化为积极和亲社会的东西，这可以将其放入你的艺术作品中，通过人们可以认同的东西来发泄愤怒和愤慨，或者可以通过组织某些东西来发泄。
That could be your purpose in life, in actually doing something positive.
这可能是你的人生目标，实际上是做一些积极的事情。
So that's the only way that you could actually use that energy for some kind of actual life's task or purpose.
因此，这是您可以实际使用该能量来实现某种实际生活任务或目的的唯一方法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You've been discussing lately a bit on some of your channels about masculine and feminine, let's say, roles, and crises of the masculine-feminine dance, as well as the crisis of masculinity per se, the crisis of femininity per se.
你最近在一些频道上讨论了一些关于男性和女性的问题，比如说角色和男性-女性舞蹈的危机，以及男性气质本身的危机，女性气质本身的危机。
Do you care to expand on that a bit?
你愿意扩展一下吗？
I think we could probably take three, four hours to explore all this in full.
我想我们可能需要三四个小时才能完整地探索这一切。
But I was struck by some of the things that you said, because I agree completely that just as we are not given a roadmap when we arrive in the world as to how to find our purpose, I think there's also a very conflicted roadmap that's thrown in front of us and indeed conflicting multiple roadmaps about what it means to be masculine or feminine or some combination of both, which of course everybody is some combination of both, just to varying degrees.
但我对你所说的一些事情感到震惊，因为我完全同意，就像我们来到这个世界时没有得到一个关于如何找到我们的目标的路线图一样，我认为我们面前也有一个非常矛盾的路线图，而且实际上关于男性或女性或两者的某种组合意味着什么的多个路线图相互冲突，当然每个人都是两者的某种组合，只是程度不同。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Well, yeah.
嗯，是的。
So men have a feminine side to them, which if you try to repress it will come out in other ways, and women have a masculine side to them.
所以男人有女性化的一面，如果你试图压抑它，它就会以其他方式表现出来，而女人也有男性化的一面。
I think Jung described this very well with the anima and the animus, which I think is extremely real.
我认为荣格用阿尼玛和阿尼姆斯很好地描述了这一点，我认为这是非常真实的。
It's very, very confusing times for both men and for women right now.
现在对于男性和女性来说都是非常非常混乱的时期。
We don't know the roles.
我们不知道角色。
Everything is just so fluid and it's very, very difficult, particularly if you're young.
一切都如此流动，这非常非常困难，特别是如果你还年轻的话。
So young women are getting this idea that everything should be equal and that women should have, and of course, it's right, should have be paid the same and should have the same career opportunities.
因此，年轻女性开始接受这样的观念：一切都应该平等，女性应该拥有同样的报酬，当然，这是正确的，应该得到同样的报酬，应该拥有同样的职业机会。
There should be no prejudice or harassment or anything.
不应该有偏见或骚扰或任何事情。
But at the same time, on social media, it's all about looking perfect, and looks are incredibly important.
但与此同时，在社交媒体上，一切都是为了看起来完美，而外表非常重要。
And if you're not hot, you're in terrible trouble.
如果你不热，你就有大麻烦了。
And a lot of young girls are extremely confused by this.
很多年轻女孩对此感到非常困惑。
They're getting mixed signals, right?
他们收到了混合信号，对吧？
And boys are in perhaps even worse circumstance, where being masculine is seen as something negative.
男孩的处境或许更糟，男性气概被视为消极的东西。
So we don't have any ideals out there anymore of what constitutes a good, positive form of femininity and a good positive form of masculinity.
因此，对于什么是良好的、积极的女性气质和良好的积极的男性气质，我们已经不再有任何理想了。
In fact, we even think that there shouldn't be anything like that, that there's no such thing as being masculine or feminine or whatever.
事实上，我们甚至认为不应该有这样的事情，不存在所谓男性或女性或其他什么的东西。
It's very, very confusing.
这非常非常令人困惑。
And so, I think of masculine traits that I think are very positive and that should be out there to counteract the sort of Andrew Tate seduction that a lot of young men are falling for, and it's a kind of an inner strength, where you're sort of in control of your emotions.
因此，我认为男性特征是非常积极的，应该能够抵消许多年轻人所迷恋的安德鲁·泰特的诱惑，这是一种内在的力量，你可以在某种程度上控制自己的情绪。
You're not invulnerable, et cetera.
你并非刀枪不入，等等。
But you can take criticism, you can have moments of failure and you'll bounce back, but you have a kind of inner resilience and a kind of inner strength, a quiet calm that I think used to be exemplified in movie icons like a Gary Cooper type thing, right?
但你可以接受批评，你可以有失败的时刻，但你会东山再起，但你有一种内在的韧性和一种内在的力量，一种安静的平静，我认为这种平静曾经在电影偶像中得到体现，比如加里·库珀式的东西，对吗？
And that kind of sense of inner calmness where you're not hysterical, you're not getting upset about everything that happens, where you have a kind of an inner strength and a confidence, and you can withstand what Ryan Holiday talks about a lot about with stoicism.
那种内心平静的感觉，你不会歇斯底里，不会对发生的一切感到不安，你有一种内在的力量和自信，你可以坚忍地承受瑞安·霍利迪经常谈论的事情。
You can withstand all of the hardships in life, but you have that citadel within you, is a very, very powerful form of masculinity, as opposed to it's all about ...
你可以承受生活中的所有困难，但你内心有一个堡垒，是一种非常非常强大的男子气概，而不是一切......
sleeping with a lot of women, having really fast cars, being abusive and being a bully, et cetera.
和很多女人上床、拥有非常快的汽车、辱骂和欺凌等等。
These are signs of weakness, of insecurity.
这些都是软弱、不安全的迹象。
And to be masculine should be a sense of security and inner confidence and inner strength.
而男性气概应该是一种安全感、内心的自信和内心的力量。
Right?
正确的？
And that's what we should venerate in our culture, and we should have icons like that.
这就是我们在文化中应该崇敬的东西，我们应该有这样的偶像。
Okay?
好的？
It doesn't mean that there's no role for men who are not masculine or who have more of the feminine virtues.
这并不意味着没有男性气质或具有更多女性美德的男性没有角色。
There's definitely a role for that, and we see a lot of that in all sorts of arenas of life.
这肯定有其作用，我们在生活的各个领域都看到了很多这样的情况。
And then there should be a positive model for women, where instead of their appearances being judged by their appearances and having to conform to ideals of what's hot or not, it's about being incredibly powerful and competent and have expertise in being really successful in your career, as opposed to being continually judged by your appearances, which is very damaging.
然后应该为女性建立一个积极的模式，而不是根据外表来判断她们的外表，并必须符合热门或不热门的理想，而是要拥有令人难以置信的权力和能力，并拥有在职业生涯中真正成功的专业知识，而不是不断地根据外表来判断，这是非常有害的。
So these are terrible times.
所以现在是可怕的时刻。
I feel fortunate that I grew up in a time where there were these kind of models for me to go by.
我很幸运，我成长在一个有这些榜样可供我借鉴的时代。
And I think of my father, who was a very quiet man, and he was just a middle-class salesman, is basically what he was.
我想起我的父亲，他是一个非常安静的人，他只是一个中产阶级推销员，基本上就是这样。
His whole life, he sold chemical supplies for one company.
他一生都在为一家公司销售化学用品。
But he was very dignified.
但他却非常有尊严。
He treated people well.
他待人很好。
He was very calm and very quiet, but he also was very empathetic.
他非常冷静，非常安静，但他也非常善解人意。
That was my role model for what I think is a good masculine energy, and I think a lot of people just don't have that, and they're very lost.
这是我认为良好的男性能量的榜样，我认为很多人就是没有这种能量，他们非常迷失。
And so I don't know what the answer is to that.
所以我不知道答案是什么。
I can't really produce that out of thin air, but I wish I could.
我不能真的凭空产生它，但我希望我能。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, certainly nowadays there are many more, let's say, examples and options of masculine and feminine qualities out there for observation because of social media and because of the internet.
嗯，当然，现在由于社交媒体和互联网，有更多的男性和女性特质的例子和选择可供观察。
And as you pointed out before, a key feature to becoming a functional human being, especially nowadays, is learning what to ignore.
正如您之前指出的，成为一个有功能的人的一个关键特征，尤其是在当今，是学会忽略什么。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's an interesting idea in the circles around nutrition and health that never before in human history have human beings been able to access such a wide variety of foods that differ from what their ancestors ate.
在营养和健康领域有一个有趣的想法，在人类历史上，人类从未能够获得如此广泛的与祖先所吃的食物不同的食物。
And I don't even mean ancient ancestors.
我什至不是指远古祖先。
If you grew up in the Bay Area, as I did in the 1970s and '80s, there were a few ethnic restaurants, but we ate the same 15 or 20 foods over and over again.
如果你在湾区长大，就像我在 1970 年代和 80 年代一样，那里有一些民族餐馆，但我们一遍又一遍地吃同样的 15 或 20 种食物。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then eventually that exploded into dozens of options and more, and fusion foods and all sorts of things.
然后最终爆发出数十种甚至更多的选择，以及融合食品和各种各样的东西。
And so there is this idea in the nutrition communities that we are not hardwired to think about and discern so many different food options, and to taste so many distinct flavors.
因此，营养界有这样一种观点，即我们并不是天生就能够思考和辨别如此多不同的食物选择，并品尝如此多不同的口味。
Whereas before, people in one portion of the planet or country ate generally one way in a given season, if there's seasonality, et cetera.
而以前，如果有季节性等等，地球或国家某个地区的人们通常在特定季节以一种方式饮食。
In a similar vein, we are now, and children too are now overwhelmed with the number of different options of how to express oneself, both masculinity and femininity, but generally speaking.
同样，我们现在和孩子们现在都被如何表达自己的不同选择所淹没，无论是男性气质还是女性气质，但一般来说。
And so the question is then, how does one choose, right?
那么问题来了，如何选择，对吗？
How does one decide what's functional, what works, what's best, what's me, right?
一个人如何决定什么是实用的、什么是有效的、什么是最好的、什么是我的，对吗？
Everyone asking themselves, "Who am I?" Right?
每个人都问自己：“我是谁？”正确的？
I think all teenagers, I find this fascinating, ask themselves, "Who am I?" Adults don't tend to ask themselves that question.
我认为所有青少年都觉得这很有趣，问自己“我是谁？”成年人不会问自己这个问题。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But who am I?
但我是谁？
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
I still ask myself that question.
我仍然问自己这个问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Well, that's good.
嗯，那很好。
Maybe I should ask myself that more often.
也许我应该更频繁地问自己这个问题。
But I think that we clearly have gone over a cliff with this stuff.
但我认为我们显然已经在这些事情上陷入了悬崖。
I don't think we're still at the point where we're veering towards the edge of confusion.
我认为我们还没有处于走向混乱边缘的地步。
I think young people are really confused because the moment one assumes one clear and let's say balanced set of masculine, feminine attributes, or maybe veers a bit more masculine or a bit more feminine, it's like there are a million examples telling you that that's wrong.
我认为年轻人真的很困惑，因为当一个人假设一套明确的、比方说平衡的男性、女性属性，或者可能变得更男性化或更女性化一点时，就好像有一百万个例子告诉你这是错误的。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
I know.
我知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then sometimes has the tendency to anchor to, "Well, no, I'm right because this is who I am," and then all of a sudden you're in a larger battle.
然后有时会倾向于“嗯，不，我是对的，因为这就是我”，然后突然之间你就陷入了一场更大的战斗。
So, Gary Cooper's great.
所以，加里·库珀很棒。
Love his movies.
喜欢他的电影。
But we now have a million variations on Gary Cooper that don't look anything like the Gary Cooper you and I are talking about, and a lot of people won't even know who we're talking about.
但我们现在有上百万个加里·库珀的变体，它们看起来一点也不像你和我正在谈论的加里·库珀，而且很多人甚至不知道我们在谈论谁。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
I know they won't.
我知道他们不会。
I know.
我知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
But that's perhaps-
但这也许是——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
I know I'm a dinosaur.
我知道我是一只恐龙。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But perhaps it illustrates the point, no, not that you're a dinosaur, but that there is no single or even set of masculine or feminine ideals.
但也许它说明了这一点，不，不是说你是恐龙，而是不存在单一的甚至一组的男性或女性理想。
So picking role models is something that I really, truly internalized from your book, "Mastery."
因此，选择榜样是我从你的书《精通》中真正真正内化的事情。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There were a lot of lonely years for me, and I won't get into the stories of just wondering, "What am I going to do?" I'm 13, my home was completely broken, no semblance of the reality it was before.
对我来说，有很多孤独的岁月，我不会陷入只是想知道“我要做什么？”的故事。我13岁了，我的家完全破碎了，与以前的现实完全不一样了。
Who are the males in my life I'm going to orient to?
我生命中的男性对象是谁？
And fortunately for me, I assigned mentors to me, whether or not they knew it or not-
对我来说幸运的是，我为我指派了导师，无论他们是否知道——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that really helped me along, and I changed them up as you recommend.
这确实对我很有帮助，我按照你的建议对它们进行了更改。
There wasn't one.
没有一个。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I understood there was a breaking up process, an integration process, combining and threading together different things.
我明白有一个分解的过程，一个整合的过程，将不同的事物组合和串联在一起。
I truly believe that that's what's required.
我确实相信这就是所需要的。
It doesn't have to be 100% Gary Cooper.
它不一定是 100% 加里·库珀。
It can be-
它可以是——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
No
否
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
10% Robert Green, 10% someone else.
10% 是罗伯特·格林，10% 是其他人。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
5% this, and creating a pie chart of sorts of who one wishes to be in a given context.
5%，并创建一个饼图，显示在给定环境下人们希望成为的人。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But that takes work.
但这需要努力。
It takes a bit of work and discernment.
这需要一些工作和洞察力。
But gosh, that's powerful.
但是天哪，这太强大了。
And credit goes to you because you were a mentor of mine.
这要归功于你，因为你是我的导师。
You didn't even realize it-
你甚至没有意识到——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Oh, I did
哦，我做到了
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the way that you forge and organize information.
以你伪造和组织信息的方式。
And there were others.
还有其他人。
But "Mastery" is where I learned to do that.
但“精通”是我学会做到这一点的地方。
And this is not a podcast that's a sales pitch for "Mastery," but gosh, it really taught me.
这不是一个推销“精通”的播客，但天哪，它真的教会了我。
Okay, I have a graduate advisor.
好吧，我有一个研究生导师。
She was wonderful and brilliant, but she didn't know how to explain a lot of things to me, so I'd find someone else for that.
她很出色，很聪明，但她不知道如何向我解释很多事情，所以我会找别人来解释。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And someone else for the other thing, and someone else for the other thing, and together, create a patchwork of really excellent mentors that made a lot of sense to me.
另一个人负责另一件事，另一个人负责另一件事，共同创造了一个由非常优秀的导师组成的拼凑而成的团队，这对我来说很有意义。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I think there's a role for that process that you spell out in "Mastery" in the larger context of who to become as a person, and that includes masculine and feminine ideals.
所以我认为，你在“掌握”中阐述的这个过程在成为一个人的更大背景下发挥着作用，其中包括男性和女性理想。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah, and it's an ongoing process throughout your life, so who you glommed onto when you were 14 or 15 will change when you're 19.
是的，这是一个贯穿你一生的持续过程，所以当你 14 或 15 岁时你所迷恋的人将会在你 19 岁时发生改变。
I had a series of people like you're talking about.
我身边就有很多像你所说的那样的人。
My high school English teacher, who had an enormous impact on me, who taught me basically how to write.
我的高中英语老师对我产生了巨大的影响，他基本上教我如何写作。
I internalized his voice.
我内化了他的声音。
When I went to Berkeley, I had a professor there who became my kind of surrogate father at Berkeley, who I deeply admired for his level of scholarship.
当我去伯克利时，那里有一位教授，他成了我在伯克利的代理父亲，我非常钦佩他的学术水平。
So he became kind of an intellectual role model.
所以他成为了知识分子的榜样。
Later in life, when I finally wrote my first book, I met a man, Jos Delfer, who was a book packager who understood the business, et cetera.
后来，当我终于写出第一本书时，我遇到了一个人，乔斯·德尔弗（Jos Delfer），他是一位书籍包装商，了解业务等等。
He kind of saved me.
他有点救了我。
He was sort of my mentor for the next phase in my life.
他可以说是我人生下一阶段的导师。
So on and on and on, I found people, but they have positive qualities, qualities that I admire.
就这样，我找到了一些人，但他们都有积极的品质，我钦佩的品质。
They're not perfect.
他们并不完美。
Everyone is flawed.
每个人都有缺陷。
And so at some point, maybe you see too many of the flaws, and you go on, "I need somebody new in my life." But there's nothing wrong with that.
所以在某些时候，也许你看到了太多的缺陷，然后你继续说，“我的生活中需要一个新的人。”但这并没有什么问题。
It's not like you're violating any codes or hurting them.
这并不意味着您违反了任何准则或伤害了它们。
You move on to somebody else.
你转向其他人。
But the sense of finding people whose qualities you admire, we don't learn from people just by following their ideas.
但是，要找到你所欣赏的品质的人，我们不会仅仅通过遵循他们的想法来向他们学习。
We pick up their energy, their spirit.
我们汲取他们的能量、他们的精神。
Now, you didn't necessarily pick up my energy or spirit from reading "Mastery," although maybe you did.
现在，你不一定会从阅读《精通》中获得我的能量或精神，尽管也许你做到了。
I don't know.
我不知道。
But when you're interacting with that professor at Stanford or whatever, it's not just verbally.
但当你与斯坦福大学的教授或其他地方的教授互动时，这不仅仅是口头上的。
There's kind of a non-verbal communication going on.
正在进行某种非语言交流。
You're internalizing some of the positive qualities that you saw in them and finding these series of mentors, because I call it surrogate parents.
你正在内化你在他们身上看到的一些积极品质，并找到这一系列的导师，因为我称之为代理父母。
You can't choose your father and mother, but you can choose these ideals for you.
你无法选择你的父亲和母亲，但你可以为你选择这些理想。
You can choose these mentors in your life.
你可以在生活中选择这些导师。
You can kind of rewrite your family history and find that father figure you never had by glomming onto this person.
你可以重写你的家族史，通过迷恋这个人来找到你从未有过的父亲形象。
But it has to be the right fit.
但它必须是合适的。
It has to be someone that you connect to emotionally and intellectually and that has the positive qualities you wish for yourself.
他必须是一个与你在情感和智力上都有联系的人，并且具有你希望自己具备的积极品质。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I'll embarrass you perhaps by saying that since I was a freshman in college, which is really when I turned my academic life around and really my life around, I've maintained the same notebook with a list of names of people that I admire and who I'm trying to emulate in some way, not in every way, certainly.
好吧，也许我会让你感到尴尬的是，自从我是大学一年级学生以来，也就是我真正改变我的学术生活和我的生活的时候，我一直保留着同一个笔记本，上面列出了我钦佩的人和我试图以某种方式（当然不是在所有方式）效仿的人的名字。
And certain names have been crossed off, but most of them have survived.
某些名字已被划掉，但大多数都幸存下来。
And certainly, after reading "Mastery," your name made that list.
当然，读完《精通》后，你的名字就出现在了这个名单上。
And-
还有——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
I hope I'm not being crossed off at some point.
我希望我不会在某个时候被划掉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, not at all.
不，一点也不。
And through reading "Mastery," there were additional names.
通过阅读《精通》，还有更多的名字。
I had the great misfortune of having all three of my academic advisors die, suicide, cancer, cancer, which sounds tragic.
我非常不幸，我的三位学术导师都死了，自杀，癌症，癌症，这听起来很悲惨。
The joke in my field is you don't want me to work for you.
我所在领域的笑话是你不想让我为你工作。
That's what everyone says.
大家都这么说。
But by being essentially scientifically orphaned-
但本质上是科学上的孤儿——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because there's a strong mentor-mentee relationship in science and progression through the career track, it forced me to go out and find other people and also to learn how to, quote-unquote, mother and father myself-
因为在整个职业生涯中，科学和进步方面存在着牢固的导师与受训者关系，这迫使我出去寻找其他人，并学习如何引用或反引用自己的母亲和父亲——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the context of profession.
在职业背景下。
And I got a lot of help, but I can't emphasize enough how valuable that practice is.
我得到了很多帮助，但我无法充分强调这种做法的价值。
And so when one looks out on the landscape of social media options, these are literally just options of people to, we call it following, but it should probably should be called something else, because following falls short of emulating or attempting to emulate.
因此，当人们审视社交媒体选项的前景时，这些实际上只是人们的选择，我们称之为“追随”，但它可能应该被称为其他名称，因为“追随”不足以模仿或试图模仿。
But I think that in the context of masculine and feminine ideals, this is so critical, but it's like the buffet of food is so enormous now, right?
但我认为，在男性和女性理想的背景下，这一点非常关键，但就像现在的自助餐是如此巨大，对吧？
You've got every cuisine on the table, so to speak.
可以这么说，你的餐桌上有各种美食。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
And we're not wired for that.
我们并没有为此做好准备。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No.
不。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
And I know personally, I get very agitated and upset if I go to the market, and I have to choose between 30 items, and I have no idea what I want.
我个人知道，如果我去市场，我会非常焦躁和不安，我必须在 30 种商品中进行选择，而且我不知道自己想要什么。
It makes me really cranky and upset.
这让我非常暴躁和不安。
Whereas if I know, okay, I cannot have this food, I can't have that, I'm only looking for this.
而如果我知道，好吧，我不能吃这个，我不能吃那个，我只是在寻找这个。
Okay, it's easy.
好吧，这很容易。
It doesn't take two hours and waste my time.
不需要两个小时，浪费我的时间。
Too much choice is very detrimental to the human being, I think.
我认为太多的选择对人类来说是非常有害的。
And that's why we're going back to what I originally said.
这就是为什么我们要回到我最初所说的。
When you have that sense of purpose about your life, about what's important, it not just infects your career, but infects everything you do.
当你对自己的生活、对什么是重要的事情有目标感时，它不仅会影响你的职业生涯，还会影响你所做的一切。
So you know eating this food is going to drain me of my energy that I need to create this thing that means so much to me, and energy and feeling my brain active and alive is an incredibly important value.
所以你知道吃这种食物会耗尽我的能量，我需要创造这个对我来说意义重大的东西，而能量和感觉我的大脑活跃和活跃是一个非常重要的价值。
All right, I'm not going to eat all that sugar because it's bad for me, right?
好吧，我不会吃那么多糖，因为这对我不好，对吧？
It means I'm not going to get outraged by these things on the internet because it's a waste of time.
这意味着我不会对互联网上的这些事情感到愤怒，因为这是浪费时间。
I can't do anything about it.
我对此无能为力。
It's just feeding on my, I forget the part of the brain that's like the amygdala or whatever, right?
它只是以我为食，我忘记了大脑的一部分，比如杏仁核或其他什么，对吧？
So no, I don't want to go there, right?
所以不，我不想去那里，对吗？
And on and on and on.
不断不断。
All these things in social media, some of it's good.
社交媒体上的所有这些东西，其中一些是好的。
Some of it's interesting.
其中一些很有趣。
I can follow Andrew Huberman's podcast, and I enjoy that, and I learn a lot from him.
我可以关注安德鲁·胡伯曼的播客，我很喜欢这一点，而且我从他身上学到了很多东西。
But a lot of these podcasts are useless.
但这些播客很多都是无用的。
They're not helping me in any way.
他们没有以任何方式帮助我。
So it gives you this kind of filter and this radar to cut out those 100 different choices that drive us absolutely crazy.
所以它为你提供了这种过滤器和雷达来剔除那些让我们绝对疯狂的 100 种不同选择。
And I know maybe I'm partially, maybe I'm a little bit, I don't know, I hate to say that maybe I'm partially on the spectrum or something, but I can't stand too many choices.
我知道也许我是部分的，也许我有一点，我不知道，我不想说，也许我部分地处于自闭症谱系之类的，但我无法忍受太多的选择。
It completely drives me nuts.
它完全让我发疯。
So I always have to kind of funnel my energy into something, to things that are productive, and having a sense of your purpose whenever you discover it in your 20s, hopefully, gives you that ability to say, "These are the positive role models I want in my life.
所以我总是要把我的精力集中到一些事情上，投入到那些富有成效的事情上，每当你在 20 多岁的时候发现自己的目标时，就会有一种使命感，希望能让你有能力说：“这些是我生活中想要的积极榜样。
These are the mentors." And the thing about following people On social media.
这些是导师。”还有在社交媒体上关注人们的事情。
It's so easy.
太容易了。
It's just a click.
只需点击一下即可。
It doesn't mean anything.
这没有任何意义。
A mentor relationship takes work.
导师关系需要努力。
It takes courage, because you have to actually go up to somebody and physically ask for their help.
这需要勇气，因为你必须真正走到某人身边并请求他们的帮助。
And a lot of people write to me, say, "I'm afraid of asking this important, powerful person to be their mentee." So it involves a sense of social courage, where you have to literally engage with another human being who you admire and who you think is powerful.
很多人写信给我说，“我害怕邀请这个重要、有权势的人成为他们的弟子。”因此，它涉及一种社会勇气感，即你必须真正与另一个你钦佩、你认为强大的人交往。
So it's building your social skills, et cetera.
所以它正在培养你的社交技能等等。
But it's a skill you develop.
但这是你培养的一项技能。
You can't just follow someone.
你不能只跟随某人。
You can't just watch their lectures.
你不能只看他们的讲座。
You have to engage with them, and you have to get over some of your fears and your anxieties in the process.
你必须与他们接触，并且在此过程中你必须克服一些恐惧和焦虑。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, and I might add to it, I think everything you said is absolutely true, and I think engaging in the various tools that they recommend is immensely helpful.
是的，我可以补充一点，我认为你所说的一切都是绝对正确的，而且我认为使用他们推荐的各种工具非常有帮助。
I think hearing about a book is great.
我认为听到一本书很棒。
Reading a book is even better.
读一本书就更好了。
Thinking about a book that you've read is even better than that.
想想你读过的一本书甚至比这更好。
And then writing down your own ideas and writing a book, well, that's the big win.
然后写下你自己的想法并写一本书，嗯，这就是巨大的胜利。
And I believe that's what the universe wants from us.
我相信这就是宇宙对我们的期望。
Not necessarily to write a book, but translate what I just said to any number of different endeavors.
不一定要写一本书，而是将我刚才所说的内容转化为许多不同的努力。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah, you want to be able to think for yourself.
是的，你希望能够独立思考。
So you're not just absorbing ideas from other people and kind of mimicking them and kind of just learning the exteriors of their ideas.
所以你不仅仅是吸收别人的想法，模仿他们，只是了解他们想法的外表。
You want to kind of digest them and then have them slowly become your own ideas by interacting with them and by putting them through your own lens.
你想要消化它们，然后通过与它们互动并通过你自己的视角将它们慢慢地变成你自己的想法。
So someday, it's a book stirring in me, is the art of thinking and how to use that kind of process and go deeper into it.
所以有一天，这是一本让我兴奋的书，它是思考的艺术，以及如何使用这种过程并深入研究它。
And I talked a lot about it in one of my podcasts, which might be the seed of a book, but it's the difference between dead thinking and alive thinking.
我在一个播客中谈论了很多这个问题，这可能是一本书的种子，但这就是死思维和活思维之间的区别。
Ideas can be either alive, or they can be dead.
想法可以是活的，也可以是死的。
And an alive idea is something that enters your brain from an external source, a philosopher, an article, somebody you admire, somebody you hate, and then you absorb it, and you think about it, and you decide, "I'm going to turn it around into this, and I'm going to make it alive, and it's going to make it something that's part of me." Another part of an alive idea is you have an idea that comes to you about a book or a project or something about the world, and you go, "Maybe that's not actually true.
一个活跃的想法是从外部来源进入你大脑的东西，一个哲学家，一篇文章，你钦佩的人，你讨厌的人，然后你吸收它，你思考它，然后你决定，“我要把它变成这样，我要把它变成活的，它会成为我的一部分。”一个活跃的想法的另一部分是，你有一个关于一本书、一个项目或关于世界的事情的想法，然后你会说，“也许这实际上不是真的。
Maybe the opposite is true." And you go through a process, and you cycle through it on and on, and you reflect on it, and you refine this idea, and maybe it turns into its opposite.
也许事实恰恰相反。”你经历一个过程，你不断地循环它，你反思它，你完善这个想法，也许它会变成相反的结果。
And through the process of reflecting and correcting and revising it, you turn it into something living, something alive within you.
通过反思、纠正和修改的过程，你把它变成了活生生的东西，变成了你内在的活生生的东西。
On and on and on.
一直不断。
And what prevents people from going through that process, which would be the subject of my book, is basically anxiety.
阻止人们经历这个过程的根本原因是焦虑，这也是我书的主题。
Because I think how you handle anxiety is the most important kind of quality in life.
因为我认为如何处理焦虑是生活中最重要的品质。
It'll determine whether you will be successful, whether you will find your career path, or whether you won't be able to.
它将决定你是否会成功，是否能找到自己的职业道路，或者是否无法找到。
I don't know if you can follow that idea at all.
我不知道你是否能遵循这个想法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
But anxiety is a signal to you that you don't understand something, that there's a problem out there that you can't resolve.
但焦虑是向你发出的信号，表明你不明白某些事情，存在你无法解决的问题。
And so what happens to most people, if you're insecure, is you glom onto something instant and easy to get rid of your feeling of anxiety.
因此，如果你缺乏安全感，大多数人都会采取一些即时且容易摆脱焦虑感的东西。
"I don't understand this problem.
“我不明白这个问题。
Oh, A must be the answer because this person said that." And so you don't develop the ability to think.
哦，答案一定是A，因为这个人这么说过。”所以你没有发展思考的能力。
You don't develop the ability to go to the next level.
你没有发展出进入下一个水平的能力。
But if you take that anxiety and you go, "All right, maybe A is an answer," and then you start going through A, and then you go, "No, maybe A isn't the answer.
但如果你带着这种焦虑，你会说，“好吧，也许 A 是一个答案，”然后你开始经历 A，然后你会说，“不，也许 A 不是答案。
Maybe B is the answer," you're able to surmount your anxiety and go past it, come further and further and further.
也许B就是答案，”你能够克服你的焦虑并超越它，走得越来越远。
You don't rush for the first available answer that's out there.
您不必急于寻求第一个可用的答案。
You're able to go through a process of refining things.
你能够经历一个完善事物的过程。
And so in your career, if you're anxious for success, if you're anxious for money, you're going to make the wrong choices.
所以在你的职业生涯中，如果你渴望成功，如果你渴望金钱，你就会做出错误的选择。
But if you're able to deal with that anxiety and say, "Maybe I have to think more deeply about where I'm going.
但如果你能够应对这种焦虑并说：“也许我必须更深入地思考我要去哪里。
I have to come up with other alternatives," then you're going to make a much better choice on and on and on.
我必须想出其他选择，”然后你就会不断地做出更好的选择。
If you're a creative person, it's very challenging to have that blank piece of paper before you, that book that you haven't written, that film or whatever.
如果你是一个有创造力的人，那么面对你面前的那张白纸、那本你没有写过的书、那部电影或其他任何东西都是非常具有挑战性的。
You're filled with a lot of anxiety, and you have to deal with it.
你充满了很多焦虑，你必须应对它。
And if you're able to turn it into something creative and productive, then great things will happen.
如果你能够将其转化为创造性和富有成效的东西，那么伟大的事情就会发生。
You'll create a masterpiece.
你将创造出一件杰作。
So the ability to deal with anxiety and to not give in to the most instant gratification that you can get is, to me, a marker of somebody who'll be creative and will invent something as opposed to people who just recycle old and dead ideas.
因此，对我来说，处理焦虑和不屈服于最即时的满足感的能力是一个有创造力并会发明一些东西的人的标志，而不是那些只是重复旧的和死的想法的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amen to that.
阿门。
I was once told that anxiety makes children of us all, and not in the positive sense of being childlike.
有人告诉我，焦虑让我们所有人都变成了孩子，但并不是像孩子一样积极的意义。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It regresses us to a mode where we feel a complete lack of control, and I completely agree that being able to manage anxiety and work, dance with it-
它使我们回归到一种完全缺乏控制的模式，我完全同意能够管理焦虑并与它共舞——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
since we can't rid ourselves of it.
因为我们无法摆脱它。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Perhaps nor should we.
也许我们也不应该。
Because it's a signal, as you point out, that we don't understand something, that there's something to get curious about.
因为正如你所指出的，这是一个信号，表明我们不理解某些东西，有一些东西值得好奇。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A process or something out there or both.
一个过程或其他东西或两者兼而有之。
I think that really resonates.
我认为这确实引起了共鸣。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think a lot of people will benefit from hearing that because I think we hear the word flow, and we just all imagine...
我认为很多人会从听到这个消息中受益，因为我认为我们听到了“流动”这个词，并且我们都想象......
I even catch myself imagining that when Robert Greene sits down to write, it's like there's a blank sheet, and then he just kind of meditates, and then boom, out come these books.
我什至想象自己，当罗伯特·格林坐下来写作时，就像有一张白纸，然后他只是冥想，然后轰隆隆地，这些书就出来了。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If I get realistic for a second, I'm sure that there's a lot of inner turmoil and anxiety.
如果我现实一点，我确信内心有很多混乱和焦虑。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Oh my God, you have no idea.
天哪，你不知道。
So, my process is 95% pain and maybe 2.5% ecstasy, and I don't know what the other 2.5% would be.
所以，我的过程是 95% 的痛苦，也许还有 2.5% 的狂喜，我不知道另外 2.5% 会是什么。
But, so I write a story because in my new book and most of my books, I always begin with a story from history, et cetera.
但是，所以我写一个故事，因为在我的新书和我的大多数书中，我总是从历史等故事开始。
And it is so bad.
这太糟糕了。
I can't believe how bad, how flat it is, how it sucks.
我不敢相信它是多么糟糕，多么平坦，多么糟糕。
I'm so embarrassed.
我很尴尬。
I hate myself.
我讨厌我自己。
And I go and I dig into it, and I start changing the words in it.
我去深入研究它，并开始更改其中的文字。
I start making it a little bit better.
我开始让它变得更好一点。
The second version, it's kind of palatable, but it still sucks.
第二个版本，虽然有点可口，但仍然很糟糕。
If I let it out into the world, it'd be very embarrassing.
如果我把它泄露出去，那就太尴尬了。
It's anxious.
很着急。
And my wife can tell you, I'm a miserable being when that happens.
我的妻子可以告诉你，当这种情况发生时，我会很痛苦。
Everything looks black to me at that point, and I push through it.
那时，一切对我来说都是黑色的，但我还是克服了它。
So if I gave in to my anxiety, and this happens with a lot of books and writers, I would just put out that second version, which isn't very good.
因此，如果我屈服于焦虑，这种情况发生在很多书籍和作家身上，我就会推出第二个版本，这不是很好。
It isn't very strong.
它不是很强。
It isn't thought through.
还没有想清楚。
Because my ideas, when I look at them the first time, I go, "That's not real.
因为我的想法，当我第一次看到它们时，我会说：“那不是真的。
That's not the actual thing that's going on here, Robert.
这不是这里实际发生的事情，罗伯特。
You've missed the mark." You want to hit what's actually real in that story.
你已经错过了目标。”你想要抓住故事中的真实内容。
So you have to go deeper and deeper and harder and harder and harder.
所以你必须越来越深入、越来越努力、越来越努力。
So I don't just give up and go, "Here's the chapter." I go, "It's got to be better.
所以我不会放弃并说“这是这一章”。我说：“一定会更好。
It's got to be better." Until finally, after two months of struggling, it seems like it's gone to the place that I want it to be in, right?
它必须变得更好。”终于，经过两个月的奋斗，它好像已经到了我想要的地方了吧？
But I use that anxiety to keep improving and making it better.
但我利用这种焦虑来不断改进并使其变得更好。
And then when I reach that point and the story is good enough, and I can let my wife read it and then my editor, I feel great.
然后，当我达到这一点并且故事足够好时，我可以让我的妻子读它，然后让我的编辑读，我感觉很棒。
I have that 2% moment of joy, but it came through all of that anxiety.
我有那 2% 的快乐时刻，但它是通过所有的焦虑而来的。
But I can tell you, the feeling of fulfillment when I finish a chapter is pretty damn great.
但我可以告诉你，当我完成一章的时候，成就感真是太棒了。
When I finish a book, it's better than any kind of drug experience anyone could ever have.
当我读完一本书时，这比任何人所能拥有的任何吸毒经历都要好。
It's such a wonderful feeling of accomplishment and pushing past all the barriers.
这是一种美妙的成就感和克服所有障碍的感觉。
So my process involves a lot of anxiety in dealing with...
所以我的过程涉及很多焦虑来处理......
That's why I'm talking about it and why I want to write a book about it.
这就是我谈论它的原因，也是我想写一本关于它的书的原因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for sharing that.
感谢您分享这一点。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm attempting to write a book and have been for several years, and now I feel a little bit better, but-
我正在尝试写一本书，并且已经尝试了好几年了，现在我感觉好一点了，但是——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Ugh
呃
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
clearly I need to ratchet down harder.
显然我需要更加努力地减少。
But in other domains of life, I am familiar with the experience of tons of anxiety and just, okay, I'm going to just get to this one milestone, and then I'll figure out the next milestone.
但在生活的其他领域，我熟悉大量焦虑的经历，好吧，我将达到这个里程碑，然后我会找出下一个里程碑。
But even that process of saying, "Okay, I'm going to break this down into milestones," itself is anxiety provoking.
但即使是说“好吧，我要把它分解为里程碑”的过程本身也会引发焦虑。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's just that, but at some point, it generates enough inertia that you just-
就是这样，但在某些时候，它会产生足够的惯性，让你——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
It does
确实如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
sort of stumble forward into the process, and then-
有点跌跌撞撞地进入这个过程，然后——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
That's right
没错
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you keep going, so try not to bloody oneself-
你继续前进，所以尽量不要让自己流血-
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
That's right
没错
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
too much.
太多了。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think a lot of people will benefit from hearing about that.
我想很多人都会从听到这个消息中受益。
In fact, I'm certain they will.
事实上，我确信他们会的。
So speaking of anxiety, you have a clip on the internet that we will provide a link to in the show note captions, which I think is absolutely fabulous, about how to find a romantic partner and/or get more out of an existing romantic partnership.
所以说到焦虑，你在互联网上有一个剪辑，我们将在节目注释标题中提供一个链接，我认为这绝对是很棒的，关于如何找到一个浪漫的伴侣和/或从现有的浪漫伙伴关系中获得更多。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
I don't even remember what I said.
我什至不记得我说了什么。
You're going to have to remind me.
你得提醒我。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, it's so good.
噢，太好了。
One point in particular-
特别指出一点——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that I remember, that I think is oh so true, is that there needs to be at least one and probably several points of real convergence in terms of one's interests or likes that go beyond what food somebody likes or what type of house they want to live in.
我记得，我认为这是非常正确的，那就是，就一个人的兴趣或喜好而言，除了某人喜欢什么食物或他们想住什么类型的房子之外，还需要至少有一个甚至可能是几个真正的共同点。
But that actually traces back to these early forms of delight.
但这实际上可以追溯到这些早期的快乐形式。
And you mentioned, that for you, and therefore presumably your partner, that a mutual love and respect for animals happens to be one of those things within the context of your relationship, right?
你提到，对你来说，因此对你的伴侣来说，对动物的相互爱和尊重恰好是你们关系中的事情之一，对吗？
Not that a love for animals is required.
并不是说需要对动物有爱心。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
For me, it sure as hell is.
对我来说，这确实是地狱。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Exactly.
确切地。
So-
所以——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
I could never go out with a woman who didn't love animals.
我永远不可能和一个不爱动物的女人出去。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
My sister used to tease me that if a woman gave me a birthday card or a card that had a drawing of a particular animal, which I'm particularly fond of, I have an older sister, and she used to say, "Oh, no, it's over.
我姐姐常常取笑我，如果一个女人给我一张生日贺卡或一张画有我特别喜欢的特定动物的卡片，我就有一个姐姐，她常常说：“哦，不，一切都结束了。
He's gone."
他走了。”
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fortunately, it's not that simple.
幸运的是，事情没那么简单。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But, there's some truth to what she was saying.
不过，她说的也有几分道理。
It's necessary but not sufficient.
这是必要的，但还不够。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But maybe you could elaborate a little bit on this notion of convergent interest and contrast it with a lot of what people tend to hear and say about what's important in partnership.
但也许你可以详细阐述一下利益趋同的概念，并将其与人们经常听到和谈论的关于合作伙伴关系中重要内容的许多内容进行对比。
Because I think this is something that a lot of people grapple with, both in terms of finding a partner and in terms of building partnership.
因为我认为这是很多人都在努力解决的问题，无论是在寻找合作伙伴还是在建立伙伴关系方面。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Well, there's different relationships you can have.
嗯，你可以建立不同的关系。
Do you want a one-week, a one-month relationship?
你想要一段为期一周、一个月的关系吗？
Are you looking for something longer, more satisfying, that will entail maybe years of being together?
您是否正在寻找更长久、更令人满意的事情，这可能需要多年的在一起？
And people can get very boring very quickly, right?
人们很快就会变得很无聊，对吧？
Particularly if you can't have a conversation with them about subjects that interest you.
特别是如果您无法与他们就您感兴趣的主题进行对话。
And so you mentioned animals.
所以你提到了动物。
Animals is a very good example because I'm not saying that you both have to be Democrats or Republicans.
动物是一个很好的例子，因为我并不是说你们都必须是民主党人或共和党人。
That's too banal and superficial.
这太平庸和肤浅了。
But the love of animals reaches into your character, reaches something deep inside of you, or your dislike of animals, if that happens to be the case.
但是对动物的爱会深入到你的性格中，深入到你内心深处的某些东西，或者你对动物的厌恶，如果碰巧是这种情况的话。
But it signals something about it that's so primal, that's so connected to a child ...
但这表明了一些非常原始的东西，与孩子息息相关......
that there's going to be a deep connection there.
那里将会有很深的联系。
And it's not like you have to both love cats, which is good if that happens to be the case, but just animals in general.
并不是说你们都必须爱猫（如果碰巧是这样的话那很好），但只是一般的动物。
You love their energy.
你喜欢他们的能量。
You love the fact that they're innocent in their own way.
你喜欢他们以自己的方式天真无邪的事实。
You love the fact that they're not playing games with you.
你喜欢他们不和你玩游戏的事实。
You love the kind of instant love you can get from them kind of thing.
你喜欢从他们身上得到的那种即时的爱。
And you connect to them on that level is a very, very positive sign because it goes beyond just intellectual things into something emotional and visceral.
你在这个层面上与他们建立联系是一个非常非常积极的信号，因为它不仅仅是智力上的东西，而是情感上和内心上的东西。
So really, the emotional connections, the values that you have together are very important.
所以说真的，情感联系、你们共同拥有的价值观非常重要。
Money is another one that's extremely important.
金钱是另一个极其重要的因素。
So if one of you is incredibly material-oriented and is all about money, power, success, and comfort, and the other isn't really into it, is into spending money, et cetera.
因此，如果你们中的一个人非常注重物质，并且只关心金钱、权力、成功和舒适，而另一个人并不真正喜欢它，喜欢花钱等等。
A lot of people have endless fights over something like money, right?
很多人都会为了钱之类的事情而争吵不休，对吧？
Where there's no convergence there.
那里没有收敛。
And money signals a deeper value about the person.
金钱标志着一个人更深层次的价值。
So I'm not saying there's anything wrong if money motivates you.
所以我并不是说如果金钱能激励你就有什么错。
I'm not moralizing about it, because that can signal a value that maybe you grew up without it, and that feeling comfortable and feeling like you don't have to worry about something is very, very important to you.
我并不是说教它，因为这可以表明一种价值观，也许你在没有它的情况下长大，并且感觉舒适并且感觉你不必担心某些事情对你来说非常非常重要。
And the not being interested in money reveals something about your character.
对金钱不感兴趣揭示了你的性格。
So I'm telling people, you want to look at the person's character and see a kind of convergence there and something that can last.
所以我告诉人们，你要看看这个人的性格，看看那里有一种融合和可以持续的东西。
And I remember I was reading, for one of my books, about Franklin Delano Roosevelt and Eleanor Roosevelt.
我记得我正在读一本关于富兰克林·德拉诺·罗斯福和埃莉诺·罗斯福的书。
And the thing of it was Franklin Delano Roosevelt was this incredibly handsome, vibrant young man before he got polio.
最重要的是，富兰克林·德拉诺·罗斯福在患小儿麻痹症之前是一位非常英俊、充满活力的年轻人。
Very active, very athletic, very handsome.
非常活跃，非常运动，非常英俊。
All the women were after him.
所有的女人都在追随他。
He was like the perfect match.
他就像完美的搭档。
He was wealthy.
他很富有。
And Eleanor Roosevelt was like the ugly duckling.
埃莉诺·罗斯福就像丑小鸭。
She wasn't very pretty.
她不是很漂亮。
She was kind of socially awkward.
她在社交方面有点尴尬。
But he saw into her character.
但他看透了她的性格。
He saw that intellectually she was a match for him.
他发现她在智力上与他匹配。
He saw that they had similar interests on that level that I'm talking about that go beneath just the surfaces.
他发现他们在我所说的层面上有相似的兴趣，但这些兴趣只是在表面之下。
And he chose Eleanor, and everyone was shocked about it.
而他选择了埃莉诺，所有人都感到震惊。
Nobody was trying to court Eleanor.
没有人试图向埃莉诺求爱。
I forget her last name at the time.
我当时忘记了她的姓氏。
I think she might have even been Roosevelt.
我认为她甚至可能是罗斯福。
So it was very shocking.
所以这是非常令人震惊的。
He said, "I looked at somebody who I could last with, who had some qualities that were much more important to me," and it ended up being a very satisfying relationship.
他说，“我寻找了一个可以长久相处的人，他有一些对我来说更重要的品质，”最终这是一段非常令人满意的关系。
Of course, later on, he had his dalliances, so it wasn't perfect, but it was a very positive relationship.
当然，后来他也有过调情，所以这段关系并不完美，但这是一段非常积极的关系。
So seeing your values in life, when it comes to money, when it comes to career, when it comes to comfort or lack of comfort.
因此，要看到你在生活中的价值观，无论是金钱、职业、舒适还是缺乏舒适。
Some people like not being comfortable.
有些人喜欢不舒服的感觉。
They like being on the edge.
他们喜欢处于边缘。
They want challenges.
他们想要挑战。
They want to move from city to city kind of thing.
他们想从一个城市搬到另一个城市。
And if you partner with somebody who just wants to live in the same house, you're going to have conflict after conflict after conflict.
如果你和一个只想住在同一所房子里的人合作，你们就会发生一次又一次的冲突。
The sex might be great, and that might be good for a month or two months.
性可能会很棒，而且可能会持续一两个月。
I have nothing against that.
我对此并不反对。
I'm not going to judge that either.
我也不打算对此做出判断。
But it won't lead to a long-lasting relationship.
但这不会带来持久的关系。
Sports and athletics are another thing.
体育和竞技是另一回事。
Is this someone that likes the outdoors, or is it someone who's like Zsa Zsa Gabor and has to be in a Times Square, in a penthouse in Manhattan, kind of thing.
这是一个喜欢户外活动的人，还是像莎莎·嘉宝（Zsa Zsa Gabor）一样必须呆在时代广场、曼哈顿的顶层公寓之类的人。
So values that reach inside of a character that are deeply ingrained, that you can almost not change, you can't control, there's a convergence there on several levels, is a sign that you can have a deep connection with that person, and it's very important.
因此，深入角色内部的价值观是根深蒂固的，你几乎无法改变，你无法控制，在几个层面上有趋同性，这是你可以与那个人建立深厚联系的标志，这是非常重要的。
And if those connections are good and there's a physical attraction, because without the physical attraction, it will kind of fizzle out, you've got a recipe for incredible success, for something that can really last.
如果这些联系良好并且存在身体吸引力，因为如果没有身体吸引力，它就会以失败告终，你就拥有了令人难以置信的成功的秘诀，以及真正可以持久的东西。
And having a lasting relationship as I've had is such an anchor in your life.
像我一样拥有持久的关系是你生活中的一个锚点。
For me, for someone who works as hard as I do, and hopefully for her as well, it just grounds me, and it makes life so much simpler and easier.
对我来说，对像我一样努力工作的人来说，希望对她来说也是如此，这让我更加踏实，让生活变得更加简单和轻松。
And it's not just simple and easy.
这不仅仅是简单和容易。
There's a lot of love and a great deal of deeper emotions involved.
其中涉及很多爱和很多更深层次的情感。
But having a long-term relationship, if you can have it, is something that pays off in so many dividends.
但如果你能拥有长期的关系，就会带来很多红利。
So being able to find that kind of convergence.
所以能够找到那种融合。
When I first met now my wife, I had a cat at the time.
当我第一次见到我的妻子时，我当时养了一只猫。
I'd always been a dog person, but this was a cat I had, and I loved that cat like hell.
我一直是一个爱狗的人，但这是我养的一只猫，我非常喜欢那只猫。
I can't believe he was such a wonderful cat.
我不敢相信他是一只如此出色的猫。
I brought her over to my apartment on the first date.
第一次约会时我带她到我的公寓。
I wanted to see her reaction to the cat.
我想看看她对猫的反应。
Because I generally, and I don't know if people misjudge that, women who don't like cats, I can't get along with.
因为我一般来说，不知道人们是否误判了，不喜欢猫的女人，我无法相处。
Right?
正确的？
Because there's something feline in the feminine nature that I love.
因为我喜欢女性特质中的猫科动物。
And she loved my cat, and boy, that was the best sign of all.
她爱我的猫，男孩，这是最好的迹象。
And things just blossomed.
事情才刚刚开始。
And she loved me for loving a cat.
她爱我就像爱猫一样。
So there was a great convergence right there that we saw right away.
所以我们立刻就看到了巨大的融合。
And there were other things, but that was the first one.
还有其他的事情，但这是第一件事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love that story.
我喜欢那个故事。
And everything you just said suggests, I believe, that in order to find the right partner and to build an existing partnership that hopefully feels at least partially right to people, that it requires at least some knowing of self.
我相信，你刚才所说的一切都表明，为了找到合适的合作伙伴并建立一种希望人们至少部分正确的现有合作伙伴关系，至少需要对自己有一定的了解。
Because unless you know your character, one's own character, then it's impossible to really determine if somebody else's character is going to mesh well with it or not.
因为除非你了解自己的性格，一个人自己的性格，否则就不可能真正确定别人的性格是否能与你很好地契合。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Self-awareness is actually the most important quality in life for all aspects.
自我意识实际上是生活各方面最重要的品质。
But yeah, I mean If we go by social pressures, a man will choose a trophy wife who looks sexy and hot and will impress all of his male friends, et cetera.
但是，是的，我的意思是，如果我们受到社会压力，一个男人会选择一个看起来性感、性感、会给他所有男性朋友留下深刻印象的奖杯妻子，等等。
You go by the things that culture tells you that these are the right images for you, right?
你遵循文化告诉你的东西，这些是适合你的形象，对吧？
And then there won't be any connection to you, because you're choosing for purposes that don't connect to who you are.
然后就不会与你有任何联系，因为你选择的目的与你是谁无关。
And so you have to know yourself.
所以你必须了解你自己。
You have to know what you love.
你必须知道你爱什么。
You have to know what you hate.
你必须知道你讨厌什么。
I think most people know that they love animals or don't love animals.
我想大多数人都知道他们爱动物或不爱动物。
I think most people know that they like stability, or they like things to be kind of slightly chaotic.
我想大多数人都知道他们喜欢稳定，或者他们喜欢事情有点混乱。
I don't think you have to go through deep levels of introspection.
我认为你不必进行深刻的内省。
But what you have to do is, when you're involved in a relationship, you have to think that those things matter.
但你要做的是，当你陷入一段关系时，你必须认为这些事情很重要。
That's the problem.
这就是问题所在。
You tend to think that those things matter.
你倾向于认为这些事情很重要。
You think that sex matters more than anything, physical attraction matters, or you think that the person having a lot of money matters, et cetera.
你认为性比什么都重要，身体吸引力很重要，或者你认为有很多钱的人很重要，等等。
You don't think that this other aspect is important.
你认为这个其他方面并不重要。
If you value what I'm talking about, then your self-awareness will kick in because you really basically know these essential basic parts about your own character.
如果你重视我所说的内容，那么你的自我意识就会发挥作用，因为你基本上了解自己性格的这些重要的基本部分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think people sometimes get distracted by admiration of qualities that they might find admirable, but that don't mesh with their own character.
我认为人们有时会因为对他们可能认为令人钦佩的品质的钦佩而分心，但这些品质与他们自己的性格并不相符。
I've seen this many times before where-
我以前见过很多次这样的地方——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Like example
就像例子
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
well, where someone will start listing off the positive attributes of the person that they happen to be dating.
好吧，有人会开始列出他们碰巧约会的人的积极品质。
Like, "He does this, blank, and blank.
就像，“他这样做，一片空白，一片空白。
She does this.
她这样做。
He volunteers," et cetera.
他是志愿者，”等等。
And that's all great.
这一切都很棒。
Volunteering for good causes, I'm all in support of that.
为公益事业做志愿者，我完全支持。
But then what they're overlooking often, it seems, is whether or not that's a core value for them or whether or not it's just something that they admire.
但他们似乎经常忽视的是，这是否是他们的核心价值，或者这是否只是他们所钦佩的东西。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I hear a lot of admiration in the early days of relationships that later I hear about failing.
在恋爱关系的早期，我听到了很多钦佩，但后来我听到了失败。
And what you're talking about is something deeper, more aligned with one's own sense of self, and it almost leads me to use the word, sort of a more about energetics.
你所说的是更深层的东西，更符合一个人的自我意识，它几乎让我使用这个词，更多的是关于能量学。
It's like merging of people's energies, which sounds very new agey, and-
这就像人们的能量融合，这听起来很新时代，而且——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Sorry
抱歉
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that's not my intention.
那不是我的意图。
But I think it relates to something that we do hear a lot about and I think is valid, which is how it feels to be around somebody in different contexts.
但我认为这与我们确实听到很多并且我认为是有效的事情有关，这就是在不同背景下与某人在一起的感觉。
Like, do we feel at ease?
比如，我们感到安心吗？
Do we feel a lightness and ability to express ourselves, and do we enjoy and admire them in their expression?
我们是否感到轻松并有能力表达自己，我们是否喜欢并钦佩他们的表达？
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As opposed to just admiring what they do.
而不是仅仅欣赏他们所做的事情。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
I see.
我明白了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"They've accomplished blank, blank, and blank."
“他们已经完成了空白、空白、还是空白。”
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
I see.
我明白了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
"They manifest these qualities that I wish I had," right, you hear that, and aspire to have, which is very different than a meshing of energies.
“他们展现了我希望拥有的这些品质”，对，你听到了，并且渴望拥有，这与能量的啮合非常不同。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Also, there are a couple other things.
此外，还有其他一些事情。
You have to understand their character as well, and people can be very deceptive and very slippery and can wear masks.
你也必须了解他们的性格，人们可能非常具有欺骗性，非常狡猾，并且可以戴着面具。
One telling sign that I've noticed in my own relationships in the past is that the woman would be a certain way with me that I thought was very good and I liked, and then the moment we were with other people, she acted in a way that was very irritating, and it's like a different character, and I really kind of fell out of love with her when I saw her in social interactions.
我在过去的人际关系中注意到的一个明显迹象是，这个女人会对我采取某种我认为很好、我喜欢的方式，然后当我们和其他人在一起时，她的行为方式非常令人恼火，就像一个不同的性格，当我在社交互动中看到她时，我真的有点不再爱她了。
She revealed.
她透露。
So with me, she was almost wearing a mask and playing a game, but the moment she entered a different circumstance, I saw another aspect to her character.
所以和我在一起，她几乎是戴着面具在玩游戏，但当她进入不同的环境时，我看到了她性格的另一面。
So you also have to be very attentive to their character, what lies underneath, that they have some of these values, that they're not just trying to win you over for whatever and are playing along with you.
因此，你还必须非常关注他们的性格，他们的性格背后隐藏着什么，他们有一些价值观，他们不仅仅是为了任何事情来赢得你的支持，而是和你一起玩。
The other thing that's very important is a sense of mystery.
另一件非常重要的事情是神秘感。
So a partner can become boring very quickly, right?
所以伴侣很快就会变得无聊，对吗？
After a year, you know every single thing about them, right?
一年后，你对他们的一切都了如指掌了，对吧？
They're going to say the same things.
他们会说同样的话。
Those conversations go around in circles.
这些谈话一直在兜圈子。
It's just you've reached an end.
只是你已经走到了尽头。
There's no surprises.
没有什么惊喜。
There's no mystery.
没有什么神秘的。
You want somebody where they have corners that you don't really see at first, that they surprise you sometimes.
你想要的人有一些你一开始看不到的角落，有时他们会让你感到惊讶。
Suddenly, there's a quality that you hadn't suspected before.
突然间，你会发现一种你以前从未怀疑过的品质。
So people who are too obvious, who are too familiar, who show everything instantly, they're going to end up boring you, right?
所以那些太明显、太熟悉、立即展示一切的人最终会让你感到无聊，对吗？
But people who have a bit of reserve, maybe I'm projecting my own values on the world, but people who kind of intrigue you, that you don't fully understand, that make you want to know more, and if they can be like that after two years or three years or five years, wow, that's fantastic.
但是有一点保留的人，也许我正在向世界投射我自己的价值观，但是那些让你感兴趣的人，你不完全理解的人，让你想了解更多，如果他们在两年、三年或五年后能像那样，哇，那就太棒了。
But the sense of, "I know every single thing about this person.
但那种感觉是，“我了解这个人的每一件事。
They never surprise me anymore," is what kind of breaks the enchantment and leads to the end of the relationship.
他们不再让我感到惊讶”，这就是打破魅力并导致关系结束的原因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, the idea of more to learn about somebody perhaps also suggests that they are continuing to evolve and to forage in-
好吧，更多地了解某人的想法也许也表明他们正在继续进化并寻找——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the landscape of life.
生活的风景。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That they're not fully baked.
他们没有完全烘烤。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Which I think is an interesting idea.
我认为这是一个有趣的想法。
During the four-episode series that we did on mental health, Paul Conti, a psychiatrist, said that a matching of generative drives, which he defined as the desire to create something in the world of one's own expression, is really critical in relationship.
在我们制作的关于心理健康的四集系列节目中，精神病学家保罗·孔蒂（Paul Conti）表示，生成驱动力的匹配（他将其定义为在自己表达的世界中创造某些东西的愿望）在关系中非常重要。
And he said, "It matters less whether or not one person likes classical music and the other person rock and roll, provided that their relationship to music is similar or something of that sort." Like, that it's about a drive of a certain sort to engage in the world.
他说：“一个人是否喜欢古典音乐，另一个人喜欢摇滚乐并不那么重要，只要他们与音乐的关系相似或类似。”就像，这是一种参与世界的某种动力。
So one person could love music, the other person's not into music, but the way that they approach life is one of perhaps mutual curiosity, desire to find out, et cetera, and that this exists on a continuum.
因此，一个人可能喜欢音乐，另一个人不喜欢音乐，但他们对待生活的方式可能是一种相互的好奇心、渴望找出答案等等，而且这是一个连续体。
It seems to jive with what you're saying.
看起来和你说的很相符。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
It does, but the only thing I would add is, if you love classical music and they love heavy metal music, you're going to be driven crazy pretty quickly.
确实如此，但我唯一要补充的是，如果你喜欢古典音乐并且他们喜欢重金属音乐，那么你很快就会被逼疯。
It's not going to mesh with you, and I know I would have that problem.
它不会与你融为一体，我知道我会遇到这个问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You'll both be in headphones a lot.
你们都会经常戴着耳机。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
So the fact that you both have...
所以事实上你们俩都有...
Because music is like animals in a way.
因为音乐在某种程度上就像动物。
So I agree completely with what you're saying, but I would say maybe music isn't the best example, because music says something very deep about a person, right?
所以我完全同意你的说法，但我想说也许音乐不是最好的例子，因为音乐表达了一个人非常深刻的东西，对吗？
I'm not saying one is superior to the other, but it reveals something that's non-verbal, that kind of gives you a window into who they are.
我并不是说一个人比另一个人优越，但它揭示了一些非语言的东西，这让你了解他们是谁。
So if they like punk rock, like you do, and I grew up on punk rock, there's a rebellious thing.
所以如果他们像你一样喜欢朋克摇滚，而我是在朋克摇滚中长大的，那就有一种叛逆的感觉。
There's an anti-authoritarian quality that's very strong.
有一种非常强烈的反独裁品质。
You get to see that through them.
你可以通过他们看到这一点。
If they like Mozart and soft string quartets, there's somebody that kind of values softness and tranquility and peace, and you're not like that.
如果他们喜欢莫扎特和柔和的弦乐四重奏，那么有人就会看重柔和、宁静与平和，而你不是那样的人。
So the music kind of shows you something, a quality about their character that can be very telling and be very eloquent.
所以音乐向你展示了一些东西，一种关于他们性格的品质，可以非常有说服力并且非常雄辩。
And so it doesn't mean that you both have to love The Clash or the Dead Kennedys or whatever, showing my own generation, but that you both have that rebellious streak, and that rebellious streak could be you like...
所以这并不意味着你们都必须喜欢《冲突》或《死去的肯尼迪家族》或其他什么，展示了我这一代人的风格，但你们都有叛逆的倾向，而这种叛逆的倾向可能是你们喜欢的……
There's classical music composers who could be pretty damn rebellious and angry, and I actually kind of like them.
有些古典音乐作曲家可能非常叛逆和愤怒，而我实际上有点喜欢他们。
So that convergence, I think, is a positive one kind of thing.
因此，我认为这种趋同是一件积极的事情。
But in general, I agree with that.
但总的来说，我同意这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm curious about the non-verbal communication component of all types of relationships, but let's stay in the landscape of romantic relationships for the moment.
我对所有类型的关系中的非语言交流成分很好奇，但让我们暂时停留在浪漫关系的背景上。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe include professional relationships, too, because what you just described is really about a resonance around the non-verbal stuff.
也许还包括职业关系，因为你刚才描述的实际上是围绕非语言事物的共鸣。
It can be articulated with words.
可以用言语来表达。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love animals.
我喜欢动物。
I love this music.
我喜欢这个音乐。
This is the best song.
这是最好的歌。
Did you see that?
你看到了吗？
Otters are amazing, right?
水獭很神奇，对吧？
This kind of thing, but language is just an attempt to place words on a feeling in those instances.
这种事情，但语言只是在这种情况下试图用语言表达一种感觉。
So it can be classified as non-verbal.
所以它可以被归类为非语言的。
With respect to non-verbal communication, you've written fairly extensively about the fact that people often communicate with their body and facial expressions.
关于非语言交流，您已经写了相当多的文章，说明人们经常通过身体和面部表情进行交流。
I'm certainly familiar with the somewhat, if not very eerie sensation of somebody smiling, like a toothy smile, and then as they pivot away, that smile just dissolving very quickly.
我当然熟悉某人微笑的那种有点（如果不是很怪异）的感觉，比如露齿微笑，然后当他们转开时，这种微笑很快就消失了。
And you don't have to be a neuroscientist or a psychologist to realize that there was something quite false about that experience, or that this person experiences emotions like step functions on, off, on, off, which is not how most of us experience emotions.
即使你不是神经科学家或心理学家，也能意识到这种体验是完全错误的，或者这个人所经历的情绪就像阶梯功能的开、关、开、关，而这并不是我们大多数人体验情绪的方式。
Most of us experience emotions with some pervasiveness.
我们大多数人都会经历一些普遍的情绪。
Like I was happy walking in the door because of something that happened before, and so I'm going to smile while I'm walking in the door.
就像我因为以前发生的事情而很高兴走进门一样，所以当我走进门时我会微笑。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If I see something shocking and dismaying, of course I'm going to frown.
如果我看到一些令人震惊和沮丧的事情，我当然会皱起眉头。
I'm going to wipe away that smile.
我要抹去那个笑容。
But those are rare instances.
但这些都是罕见的例子。
So, let's talk about the mouth, the eyes, the face, the body in the context of communication.
那么，让我们谈谈沟通中的嘴、眼睛、脸、身体。
What are some important things to pay attention to?
有哪些需要注意的重要事项？
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
There was one thing that I want to go back on as far as convergence is sense of humor-
就融合而言，我想回顾一件事，那就是幽默感——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
...
...
is extremely important, right?
非常重要，对吧？
So it's not like you both like the same comedians, but if one person likes raunchy humor and the other person doesn't, that's a problem.
所以，你们并不是都喜欢同一个喜剧演员，但如果一个人喜欢粗俗的幽默，而另一个人不喜欢，那就是一个问题。
And also the fact that the person doesn't have a sense of humor or doesn't make you laugh is a very, very bad sign.
而且，这个人没有幽默感或不会让你发笑，这是一个非常非常糟糕的迹象。
So I wanted to add that one component in there.
所以我想在那里添加一个组件。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm so glad you did.
我很高兴你这么做了。
Someone who can make me laugh, necessary but not sufficient, but boy, it's approaching sufficient .
一个能让我发笑的人，必要但还不够，但是孩子，已经接近足够了。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah, I'd say so.
是的，我会这么说。
When it comes to the art of seduction, the art of seduction is a non-verbal language that you must master.
当谈到诱惑的艺术时，诱惑的艺术是一种你必须掌握的非语言语言。
It's a language of the gifts that you give.
这是你给予礼物的一种语言。
It's a language of how you smell.
这是一种关于你的气味的语言。
It's a language that you communicate through the eyes, et cetera, et cetera.
这是一种通过眼睛等方式进行交流的语言。
And the thing you have to understand about the human being is that we evolved for a much longer period of time without words than the small 40,000, 35,000 years that we have symbolic language.
关于人类，你必须了解的是，我们在没有文字的情况下进化了比我们拥有象征性语言的短短 40,000、35,000 年要长得多的时间。
So during that vast period of darkness where we did not have words, we were communicating non-verbally.
因此，在那个我们没有语言的广阔黑暗时期，我们通过非语言方式进行交流。
We were picking up signals from people.
我们正在接收人们的信号。
We were watching every little detail of their behavior because we didn't have words to decipher it.
我们正在观察他们行为的每一个小细节，因为我们没有语言来解读它。
So it's wired into our brains to have an amazing sensitivity to people's non-verbal communications.
因此，我们的大脑对人们的非语言交流具有惊人的敏感性。
We can almost be telepathic that way if we learn that language.
如果我们学习那种语言，我们几乎可以通过这种方式进行心灵感应。
The problem is we have the capacity, but we don't develop it at all because we are so word oriented.
问题是我们有能力，但我们根本没有开发它，因为我们太注重文字了。
You're just listening to people, if you're even listening to them at all.
你只是在听别人说话，如果你真的在听他们说话的话。
You're just hearing the words, and you're so thinking that the words mean something, that the words are sincere, which they're often not.
你只是听到这些话，你以为这些话是有意义的，这些话是真诚的，但事实往往并非如此。
At the same time that you're listening so much to words, people are shuffling in their chair.
当你听了太多的话语的同时，人们却在椅子上拖着脚步。
They're kind of looking away.
他们有点把目光移开。
They're looking at other women or other men.
他们正在看着其他女人或其他男人。
Their voice is kind of trembling when they say something where it shouldn't tremble.
当他们说出不该颤抖的话时，他们的声音就有点颤抖。
Their eyes are dead.
他们的眼睛死了。
The smile is kind of fake.
笑容有点假。
You're not watching any of it.
你什么都没看。
So the most important thing in non-verbal communication, law number one, is pay attention to it continually.
因此，非语言交流中最重要的事情，第一定律，就是持续关注它。
Develop the practice of shutting off the words and watching people, almost as if you took the television and muted it, right?
养成闭嘴观察别人的习惯，就像你把电视调成静音一样，对吗？
And just watch their behavior.
并观察他们的行为。
It's not easy and it's not natural, because it's the words, the words, the words.
这并不容易，也不自然，因为这是文字，文字，文字。
We want to focus on them, right?
我们想关注他们，对吗？
But your ability to turn that television off, to mute it, will suddenly open up so many things about people.
但是你把电视关掉、静音的能力会突然让人们了解很多事情。
They reveal so much things.
他们揭示了很多事情。
Sigmund Freud said people are continually oozing out all of their secrets through their non-verbal behavior.
西格蒙德·弗洛伊德说，人们不断地通过非语言行为泄露他们所有的秘密。
You can read them like an open book if you master this language.
如果你掌握了这门语言，你就可以像一本打开的书一样阅读它们。
And I have "The Laws of Human Nature," I describe the story of Milton Erickson.
我有《人性法则》，我描述了米尔顿·埃里克森的故事。
I don't know if you're familiar with Milton Erickson.
我不知道你是否熟悉米尔顿·埃里克森。
Perhaps the greatest modern master of non-verbal communication He was an amazing psychologist.
也许是现代最伟大的非语言交流大师，他是一位了不起的心理学家。
He sort of is the inspiration behind N...
他可以说是 N 背后的灵感来源……
What's it called?
它叫什么？
Help me out here.
帮帮我吧。
Neurolinguistic-
神经语言学-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, the-
哦，那个——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
NLP
自然语言处理
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
NLP.
自然语言处理。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
It's kind of a bastardization of his ideas, but he created hypnotherapy.
这是他的想法的混蛋，但他创造了催眠疗法。
He's the person who created hypnotherapy.
他是催眠疗法的发明者。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Certainly, hypnotherapy is a valid psychiatric practice.
当然，催眠疗法是一种有效的精神病学实践。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's excellent clinical data to support it.
有很好的临床数据来支持它。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Well, Milton Erickson had polio when he was 19, and he was paralyzed.
米尔顿·埃里克森 (Milton Erickson) 19 岁时得了小儿麻痹症，导致全身瘫痪。
His entire body was paralyzed.
他的整个身体都瘫痪了。
He couldn't even move his eyeballs.
他甚至连眼珠子都无法转动。
Right?
正确的？
And he sat in bed, and he had a very active mind, and he was going to just die from sheer boredom.
他坐在床上，头脑非常活跃，他快要无聊死了。
And what he did during the two years of being paralyzed like that was just watching people's non-verbal communication and making notes in his brain and learning every single...
而他在瘫痪的两年里所做的就是观察人们的非语言交流，并在大脑中记下笔记并学习每一个……
He learned the 20 different forms of yes, the 100 different forms of no, right?
他学会了 20 种不同形式的“是”，100 种不同形式的“不”，对吗？
Every intonation, how somebody entered the room, how they left the room, how they looked at him with the pity or empathy or something.
每一个语调，有人如何进入房间，他们如何离开房间，他们如何用怜悯或同情之类的目光看着他。
He mastered it, and then when he became a psychiatrist and he treated people, they thought he was psychic.
他掌握了它，然后当他成为一名精神科医生并为人们治疗时，他们认为他有通灵能力。
He could see everything into them.
他可以看到他们的一切。
It's because for two years, that's all he could do was observe them.
因为两年来，他所能做的就是观察他们。
He couldn't speak.
他说不出话来。
He couldn't do anything.
他什么也做不了。
He couldn't read a book.
他无法读书。
So you have that same power, but you don't have polio, obviously.
所以你有同样的权力，但显然你没有脊髓灰质炎。
But you have to first pay attention to it, right?
但你首先得注意它，对吧？
It's an amazing thing once you do.
一旦你这样做了，这将是一件了不起的事情。
It's a lot of fun, actually.
实际上，这很有趣。
And I tell people, "Go to a café one day in your city, wherever you live, and just watch people because you can't hear them.
我告诉人们，“有一天去你所在城市的一家咖啡馆，无论你住在哪里，只是看着人们，因为你听不到他们的声音。
They're a few tables away.
他们之间有几张桌子的距离。
Watch their non-verbal behavior as they interact and see if you pick up cues from them." And there are things that are signs of genuine emotions.
观察他们互动时的非语言行为，看看你是否能从他们身上得到暗示。”有些事情是真实情感的迹象。
So for instance, an exercise you can do is you go up to somebody from an angle where they can't see you coming up to them, and you surprise them.
举例来说，你可以做的一个练习是，你从一个他们看不到你走向他们的角度走向某人，你会让他们大吃一惊。
You go, "Hey.
你去，“嘿。
Hey, Mike," whatever.
嘿，迈克，”无论如何。
They turn.
他们转身。
For that second, their expression reveals how they really think about you.
那一刻，他们的表情揭示了他们对你的真实想法。
You'll detect if you can pick up microexpressions, and you can.
你会检测自己是否能识别微表情，你可以的。
They're only 1/150 of a second, but they're there.
它们只有 1/150 秒，但它们就在那里。
You express a kind of...
你表达了一种...
And they smile.
他们微笑着。
You can see the little disdain in their eyes, right?
你能看到他们眼中的一丝不屑吧？
Then the mask comes on.
然后面具就戴上了。
Right?
正确的？
Or you're talking to them, they're looking at you, but their feet are facing in an opposite direction.
或者你正在和他们说话，他们正在看着你，但他们的脚却朝向相反的方向。
That means that they're dying to get away from you kind of thing.
这意味着他们非常想摆脱你之类的事情。
These are signals that you don't necessarily pay attention to.
这些是您不一定要注意的信号。
Their posture will tell you everything about their levels of confidence, right?
他们的姿势会告诉你有关他们自信程度的一切，对吗？
On and on and on.
一直不断。
The fake smile.
假笑。
If you could just master the ability to detect the fake smile, it will go wonders for you because you're able to see...
如果你能掌握识别假笑的能力，这会给你带来奇迹，因为你能够看到......
What you really want to do is to see the person with a genuine smile, particularly in romantic relationships.
你真正想做的是看到对方真诚的微笑，尤其是在恋爱关系中。
Someone whose face lights up, a real smile lights your whole face up.
一个脸上容光焕发的人，真正的微笑照亮了你的整张脸。
It doesn't just light your mouth.
它不只是照亮你的嘴。
These parts of your face go up.
你脸上的这些部分会上升。
Your eyes get alive.
你的眼睛变得活跃起来。
There's a neural thing going on in your brain that's changing your whole facial expression, and it means that someone genuinely likes you.
你的大脑中正在发生一种神经现象，它正在改变你的整个面部表情，这意味着有人真的喜欢你。
They're genuinely interested in you.
他们真的对你感兴趣。
They're genuinely laughing or connecting to you.
他们真诚地大笑或与你交流。
Man, if you can see that, it'll help you so much in the romantic realm, and it'll help you get away from those toxic people that are continually faking interest in you.
伙计，如果你能看到这一点，它将在浪漫领域对你有很大帮助，并且会帮助你远离那些不断假装对你感兴趣的有毒的人。
Because a narcissist, a toxic person, thrives by deceiving you with a charming, alluring front that makes you come into their world.
因为一个自恋者，一个有毒的人，通过用迷人的、诱人的外表来欺骗你，让你进入他们的世界，从而茁壮成长。
Then they can hurt you.
那么他们就会伤害你。
Then they can do something to you.
然后他们就可以对你做点什么。
Right?
正确的？
Then they have you in their trap.
然后他们就把你纳入了他们的陷阱。
Right?
正确的？
So being able to see that they're not genuinely interested in you, that they're faking it, will help you avoid very toxic relationships.
因此，能够看出他们并不是真正对你感兴趣，而是假装感兴趣，这将帮助你避免非常有毒的关系。
And as I said to you, I don't know if we were on air or not, but deep narcissists have dead eyes.
正如我对你说的，我不知道我们是否在直播，但深度自恋者的眼睛是死的。
They almost can't help it.
他们几乎无法控制。
They can fake the smile, they can fake everything else, but the eyes.
他们可以假装微笑，他们可以假装其他一切，但除了眼睛。
You have to be able to read it because you say, "Well, what are dead eyes?" You'll know it when you see it.
你必须能够读懂它，因为你会说：“那么，什么是死眼？”当你看到它时你就会知道。
There's no life in them.
它们里面没有生命。
They're looking through you.
他们正在看穿你。
They're not looking at you.
他们没有看着你。
They're looking through you.
他们正在看穿你。
What can I get out of you?
我能从你身上得到什么？
You're what they call a self-object.
你就是他们所说的自我客体。
They're an object for you to use, and that's how they're looking at you, like they would look at a hammer or something.
它们是供你使用的物体，这就是他们看待你的方式，就像他们看待锤子或其他东西一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
The concept of dead eyes and also alive eyes is so fascinating because as audience of this podcast will know, because I've said it too much, but I'll say it again, that the eyes are the only two pieces of your brain that are outside the cranial vault.
死眼和活眼的概念是如此令人着迷，因为这个播客的观众会知道，因为我已经说得太多了，但我会再说一遍，眼睛是大脑中唯一位于颅顶之外的两部分。
They're literally two pieces of brain lining the back of your eyes.
它们实际上是位于眼睛后面的两块大脑。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the dynamics of the pupils, those changes, of course, reflect how bright or dim it is in the room, but they also reflect levels of arousal that-
瞳孔的动态，这些变化，当然反映了房间里的明亮或昏暗程度，但它们也反映了唤醒程度——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
are on the millisecond timescale.
都在毫秒时间尺度上。
So as one expresses words of glee, right?
那么当一个人表达欢乐的话语时，对吗？
The pupils constrict a little bit, believe it or not.
不管你信不信，瞳孔有点收缩。
Or excuse me, dilate a little bit.
或者请原谅，扩大一点。
I got it backwards there for a moment.
我暂时把它倒退了。
And vice versa.
反之亦然。
As one feels less excited, moments of despair, expressions of despair, the pupils should get a little bit smaller because arousal is going down.
当一个人感到不那么兴奋、绝望的时刻、绝望的表情时，瞳孔应该变小一点，因为兴奋度正在下降。
And so I think, we pick up on these things at an unconscious level.
所以我认为，我们在无意识的层面上了解了这些事情。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
We do.
我们做到了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The deadness of the eyes is the conclusion that pops out at us if we're paying attention.
如果我们留心的话，我们就会得出眼睛死气沉沉的结论。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
But the problem is, it registers unconsciously, but we don't give it any value to it.
但问题是，它在不知不觉中注册了，但我们却没有赋予它任何价值。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
We trust our words, we trust our rationality as opposed to our intuitions about people.
我们相信我们的话，我们相信我们的理性，而不是我们对人的直觉。
Sometimes when you meet a person for the first time, signals go up in your brain, something's wrong about them.
有时，当你第一次见到一个人时，你的大脑中会出现一些信号，表明他们出了问题。
And then you forget it because you don't trust those initial unconscious signals that your brain is giving you.
然后你就会忘记它，因为你不相信大脑给你的那些最初的无意识信号。
Right?
正确的？
So you have to first trust that these intuitions are very valuable.
所以你首先要相信这些直觉是非常有价值的。
The other thing is, pay deep attention to the tone of voice.
另一件事是，要特别注意语气。
The voice, as actors will tell you, is the hardest thing to fake.
正如演员们会告诉你的那样，声音是最难伪装的。
Right?
正确的？
It's very hard to fake excitement.
很难假装兴奋。
Your voice either has it or it doesn't.
你的声音要么有，要么没有。
It's very hard to fake confidence.
假装自信是非常困难的。
Books have been written about that.
关于这一点已经有书了。
I'm not going to go into all the details about it.
我不会详细讨论它的所有细节。
But a person will reveal so much of the emotions that they're experiencing, particularly levels of confidence, like a trembling voice or something, or a booming, confident voice, which some people can fake, but often it's very difficult, and you can still see through it.
但是一个人会流露出很多他们正在经历的情绪，特别是自信的程度，比如颤抖的声音什么的，或者是洪亮、自信的声音，有些人可以假装，但通常这是非常困难的，你仍然可以看穿它。
And on the level of seduction, men are very, very attuned to the voice of a woman, but we're not aware of it because the voice of our mother had an incredible impact on us in early childhood.
在诱惑的层面上，男人非常非常喜欢女人的声音，但我们没有意识到这一点，因为我们母亲的声音在我们的童年早期对我们产生了难以置信的影响。
Her singing, the tone of her voice, that was probably the first seduction that we ever went through.
她的歌声，她的语气，这可能是我们经历过的第一次诱惑。
And a woman's voice has tremendous power over us.
女人的声音对我们有巨大的力量。
Right?
正确的？
And so hearing a voice that grades or irritates you is something that's a bad sign.
因此，听到一个给你评分或激怒你的声音是一个不好的信号。
That goes deeper than all the characteristics that we were talking about.
这比我们谈论的所有特征都更深入。
But a woman's voice that reminds you of that mother, that singsongy, whatever feeling it was, that's somebody that can very easily seduce you.
但一个女人的声音让你想起那个母亲，那歌声，不管是什么感觉，那是一个很容易诱惑你的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, there's a place for naming this.
是的，有一个地方可以命名这个。
It's like subcortical courtship.
这就像皮质下求爱。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Ah.
啊。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Below the cortex as a-
皮质下方为-
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the geeky neuroscientist like myself say.
像我这样的极客神经科学家说。
You're getting down below the cortex with all of this stuff, convergence of real loves and desires.
你正带着所有这些东西深入到皮质之下，真正的爱和欲望的汇聚。
We express with words, we sense the world using, of course, our cortex, but we're really talking about getting into the subcortical stuff that is the stuff of our history, the stuff of our hardwiring, and our uniqueness.
我们用语言表达，我们当然用我们的皮层来感知世界，但我们真正谈论的是进入皮层下的东西，这是我们的历史的东西，我们的硬连线的东西，以及我们的独特性。
I couldn't help but think about the fact that earlier we were talking about the now infinitely vast number of choices of things to engage in, people to engage with, et cetera.
我不禁想到这样一个事实：早些时候我们谈论的是现在无限多的选择，可以参与的事情、参与的人等等。
But at the same time, as you were now talking about these microinflections and the subtleties of voice and bodily communication, that whether or not it's emojis or people sending filtered images or the default to text message communication that is so prominent now, it seems like we now have more choices, so more input.
但与此同时，正如你现在谈论的这些细微的变化以及声音和身体交流的微妙之处，无论是表情符号还是人们发送过滤后的图像，还是现在如此突出的默认短信通信，似乎我们现在有了更多的选择，更多的输入。
But the sort of qualitative differences between the inputs have been binned into a couple of simple bins.
但输入之间的质量差异已被分为几个简单的类别。
It's as if we've regressed to primary colors only.
就好像我们已经回归到仅原色一样。
But the canvas is huge.
但画布是巨大的。
I don't know if that analogy works, but you get the idea.
我不知道这个类比是否有效，但你明白了。
Because ultimately, in order to develop good choices about profession, romantic relationships, friendships, you need a lot of examples and a lot of information that allows you to glean the subtlety.
因为最终，为了在职业、恋爱关系、友谊方面做出正确的选择，你需要大量的例子和大量的信息来让你收集其中的微妙之处。
But as long as it's emojis and filtered pictures taken at a particular angle, usually from above , ask for the picture head-on and below.
但只要是表情符号和以特定角度拍摄的过滤照片（通常是从上方拍摄），就要求提供正面和下方的照片。
Send me a picture of your worst expression.
给我一张你最糟糕表情的照片。
All of that.
所有这些。
It seems that there's now increased opportunity for deception, and I don't just mean people misleading others.
现在看来，欺骗的机会越来越多，而且我指的不仅仅是人们误导他人。
I also mean us misleading ourselves.
我还指我们误导自己。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like, oh my goodness, how could I be so disappointed yet again about a particular landscape of life?
就像，天哪，我怎么能再次对生活中的某个特定景观如此失望？
It doesn't just have to be romantic interactions.
这不仅仅需要浪漫的互动。
It could be other landscapes like how could I be fooled?
可能是其他风景，我怎么会被骗呢？
Well, you're fooled because the inputs were deficient.
好吧，你被愚弄了，因为输入不足。
Not good data, as we say.
正如我们所说，这不是好的数据。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Well, the thing is, if you're immersed in the virtual realm, it's very, very hard to master the nonverbal communication aspect, which is so important.
好吧，问题是，如果你沉浸在虚拟世界中，就很难掌握非语言交流方面的知识，而这一点非常重要。
So if you're dating from an app and you're flipping through, and then you find that person, you've missed out on the greatest experience of life, which is actually having to go out to a bar or go to a restaurant or go to a social event and have to literally encounter another person and deal with looking at their behavior and kind of assessing who they are.
因此，如果你通过应用程序约会，然后翻阅，然后找到那个人，你就错过了人生中最伟大的经历，这实际上是必须出去酒吧或去餐馆或参加社交活动，并且必须真正遇到另一个人，并观察他们的行为并评估他们是谁。
It's a muscle that you have to pay attention to nonverbal communication, and if you're just going through the emojis or going through the Tinder apps, that muscle completely atrophies.
这是你必须注意非语言交流的一块肌肉，如果你只是浏览表情符号或浏览 Tinder 应用程序，那块肌肉就会完全萎缩。
You have no power.
你没有权力。
You're not able to decipher anything, and that's what's happening with a lot of people who are using these apps.
你无法破译任何东西，这就是许多使用这些应用程序的人所发生的情况。
Social skills are like any skill at all.
社交技能就像任何技能一样。
You have to develop them.
你必须开发它们。
It's a muscle you have to develop.
这是你必须发展的肌肉。
And you've all noticed this probably in your own life.
你们可能都在自己的生活中注意到了这一点。
If you've gone through a period where you're kind of retreating, you don't want to be around people, and you spend a month like that, and then you go out, you feel awkward.
如果你经历过一段退缩的时期，你不想和人在一起，你就这样度过了一个月，然后你就出去了，你会感到尴尬。
It takes you a couple of days to get used to being around other people.
您需要几天的时间才能习惯与其他人在一起。
You say stupid things.
你说些蠢话。
Your body language is awkward.
你的肢体语言很尴尬。
But if you're in a situation for months where you're constantly interacting with people, you're on a film set and day in, day out, that skill starts developing.
但如果你几个月来不断地与人互动，在电影片场日复一日地工作，这种技能就会开始发展。
But you have to be out there in the world.
但你必须身处外面的世界。
You have to be interacting.
你们必须互动。
You have to be looking at people's emotions.
你必须关注人们的情绪。
You have to be gauging them in real time.
你必须实时测量它们。
We're not built for virtual encounters.
我们不是为虚拟遭遇而生的。
We're creatures of human, of flesh and blood, and we need to be looking at each other in the eye and paying attention to all these little details, these nuances that you can only get in person.
我们是人类，有血有肉，我们需要注视对方的眼睛，关注所有这些小细节，这些只有亲自才能体会到的细微差别。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Along those lines, what are your thoughts about AI and how that's going to shape our sense of self, sense of others, and relationships, as if that's a topic that could be covered in a A series of minutes.
沿着这些思路，您对人工智能有何看法，以及它将如何塑造我们的自我意识、他人意识和人际关系，就好像这是一个可以在一系列分钟内涵盖的主题。
But what are your top contour, maybe even deeper thoughts about AI?
但您对人工智能的最高轮廓是什么，也许是更深入的想法？
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Well, I'm going to piss a lot of people off, but I'm very concerned about it.
好吧，我会惹恼很多人，但我对此非常担心。
I mentioned before about anxiety, the role that anxiety plays in thinking.
我之前提到过焦虑，焦虑在思考中扮演的角色。
You come upon an idea, and you go, "Yeah, that's good." Then you go to the next level, and it becomes better, and you go, "Oh, maybe that's not so good." Then you go to the next level.
你突然想到一个主意，然后你会说：“是的，那很好。”然后你进入下一个级别，它会变得更好，然后你会说，“哦，也许那不太好。”然后你进入下一个级别。
You go to level three, and it gets better and better.
你到了第三级，它会变得越来越好。
You have anxiety.
你有焦虑症。
Another aspect of intelligence is self-awareness, right?
智力的另一个方面是自我意识，对吗？
The ability to look at yourself and go, "I have biases.
能够审视自己并说：“我有偏见。
I have confirmation bias.
我有确认偏见。
I have conviction bias.
我有信念偏见。
I have recency bias.
我有新近偏见。
I have to counteract these things.
我必须对抗这些事情。
I also have a dark side.
我也有阴暗的一面。
I have aggression.
我有攻击性。
I have to be aware of how they color my thinking, my emotions." The third quality that goes into...
我必须意识到它们如何影响我的思维和情绪。”第三个品质是...
I'm talking about now intelligence, not artificial.
我现在谈论的是智能，而不是人工智能。
Intelligence is the ability to deal with anxiety and go to a third level.
智力是处理焦虑的能力，进入第三个层次。
Intelligence is the ability to look inside of yourself and see your own biases.
智力是审视自己内心并发现自己偏见的能力。
And the third thing is the ability to see a holistic picture, the kind of aha moment that scientists have, where you accumulate all kind of data points, and then out of nowhere, an image comes to your mind of, "Yeah, there's the answer." You see the whole thing.
第三件事是看到整体情况的能力，就像科学家们所拥有的那种顿悟时刻，你积累了各种数据点，然后突然间，一个图像出现在你的脑海中，“是的，这就是答案。”你看到了整个事情。
You see the whole gestalt, right?
你看到了整个格式塔，对吧？
Simone Weil compared it to a square cube.
西蒙娜·薇依将其比作正方体。
You can only see a cube from one side.
你只能从一侧看到立方体。
You can never see a square cube.
你永远看不到正方形的立方体。
You can only see a side of it.
你只能看到它的一面。
If it's rotating, you're still only seeing sides of it.
如果它在旋转，你仍然只能看到它的侧面。
Only in your mind can you picture the whole thing.
只有在你的脑海中你才能想象整个事情。
So the mind has to go through a process to have holistic thinking.
所以头脑必须经历一个过程才能有整体思考。
If they can invent a machine that can deal with anxiety and has anxiety and can go to level three, if they can make a machine that can be self-aware, that can go, "The people who program me have biases, therefore, I have biases.
如果他们能够发明一种可以处理焦虑并具有焦虑并且可以进入第三级的机器，如果他们可以制造一种可以自我意识的机器，那么他们就可以说：“为我编程的人有偏见，因此，我也有偏见。
I also have a dark side because people who program me have a dark side." If this machine can also think holistically beyond all of the data points and all the massive information it's combining, it can have that aha moment, all right.
我也有阴暗面，因为为我编程的人也有阴暗面。”如果这台机器还可以超越所有数据点和它所组合的所有海量信息进行整体思考，那么它就可以拥有那种顿悟的时刻，好吧。
I can see a human consciousness.
我可以看到人类的意识。
I can see creativity there.
我可以在那里看到创造力。
The other thing I would say is, when I was a student at Berkeley, going way back, I was 19 years old, I decided one summer, this is a big paradigm shift for me, I'm going to take this class in ancient Greek.
我要说的另一件事是，当我还是伯克利的学生时，追溯到 19 岁，一个夏天我决定，这对我来说是一个巨大的范式转变，我要用古希腊语来上这门课。
In six weeks, they teach you a year of ancient Greek.
在六周内，他们教你一年的古希腊语。
That means every day you have an exam, every Friday you have a final exam.
这意味着每天都有考试，每个星期五都有期末考试。
Eight hours every day of a dead language.
每天八小时的死语言。
I thought this would be the best discipline for me after someone who'd been doing too many drugs, to be honest with you.
老实说，我认为对于一个吸毒过多的人来说，这对我来说是最好的纪律。
Okay.
好的。
And so finally, at one point, they give us this paragraph of the hardest ancient Greek writer of all to read.
因此，最后，他们在某一时刻为我们呈现了古希腊作家中最难读的一段话。
This was near the end.
这已经接近尾声了。
Thucydides, or Thucydides, as they say.
修昔底德，或者正如他们所说的修昔底德。
So I had the whole night to try and translate one paragraph.
所以我花了一整夜的时间尝试翻译一段话。
I couldn't figure it out.
我想不通。
You have to understand the weirdness of ancient Greek, all the endings, the weird ways of thinking.
你必须了解古希腊语的怪异，所有的结局，怪异的思维方式。
The whole picture, that aha moment was eluding me.
整个画面，那个顿悟的时刻让我无法理解。
At one point, I thought I got it, and I translated it, and I gave it to the teacher the next day.
有一次，我以为我明白了，我翻译了它，第二天我把它交给了老师。
I remember he was this kind of hippie that you'd have at Berkeley, Dennis, Classics professor, but also a hippie.
我记得他是伯克利大学古典学教授丹尼斯那样的嬉皮士，但同时也是一个嬉皮士。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The fact that you knew his first name is very telling as well.
事实上你知道他的名字也很能说明问题。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
I can only remember his first name, Dennis.
我只记得他的名字，丹尼斯。
He said, "Robert, I can see you're thinking, but you need to go to another level.
他说：“罗伯特，我看得出来你在想，但你需要进入另一个层次。
You didn't have that aha moment.
你没有那个顿悟时刻。
You didn't put the whole thing together.
你没有把整个事情放在一起。
You were close, but you didn't.
你很接近，但你没有。
You have to try harder." And that stuck in my mind forever.
你必须更加努力。”这永远留在了我的脑海里。
Whenever I have a problem, I have to think harder.
每当我遇到问题时，我都必须更加努力地思考。
I have to go to that next level.
我必须进入下一个阶段。
Now, what would happen if I had pulled out my translation of Thucydides and just copied that out?
现在，如果我拿出我的修昔底德译本并将其复制出来，会发生什么？
Right?
正确的？
Or what would have happened if I put it through ChatGPT and it gave me the translation?
或者如果我将其通过 ChatGPT 并且它给了我翻译，会发生什么？
That muscle in my brain that I have developed for 40 years that allows me to write books would never have developed, and that muscle is, I don't know the answer here.
我大脑中培养了 40 年的肌肉，让我能够写书，而这种肌肉永远不会发展起来，而我不知道答案。
I have to go to another level.
我必须去到另一个层次。
I have to try harder.
我必须更加努力。
I have to think.
我必须想一想。
I have to have that engine whirring around, right?
我必须让引擎运转起来，对吗？
But if I just grab for ChatGPT, it's deadened, and then we're going to have a whole generation of people who stop thinking, who don't go through that process.
但如果我只是抓住 ChatGPT，它就会死气沉沉，然后我们将会有整整一代人停止思考，不经历这个过程。
You've heard of Douglas Hofstadter, I think.
我想你听说过道格拉斯·霍夫施塔特。
He said people train to go to Mount Everest.
他说人们训练是为了登上珠穆朗玛峰。
It takes months, physical exertion.
需要几个月的时间，体力消耗。
It's painful.
很痛苦。
Then they climb Mount Everest, and they see the top.
然后他们攀登珠穆朗玛峰，他们看到了山顶。
Whoa, what a great moment.
哇，多么美好的时刻啊。
He said ChatGPT would be the equivalent of taking a helicopter to the top of Mount Everest without any of that training and having the same moment.
他表示，ChatGPT 相当于乘坐直升机登上珠穆朗玛峰的顶峰，无需接受任何训练，就能享受同样的时刻。
It's not the same, right?
这不一样，对吧？
You need to go through that process.
你需要经历这个过程。
You need to go through that pain.
你需要经历那种痛苦。
And the thing of this ChatGPT, we think we're so modern, so sophisticated, but really, we're just seduced by magic.
而这个 ChatGPT 的事情，我们认为我们是如此现代，如此复杂，但实际上，我们只是被魔法所诱惑。
You put it in there, and you see this whoa.
你把它放在那里，你就会看到这个哇。
It's like magic.
这就像魔法一样。
It's like a magician.
这就像一个魔术师。
But it's empty.
但它是空的。
It's like not your brain functioning, right?
就像你的大脑不起作用一样，对吧？
It's the pagan part of us.
这是我们异教徒的一部分。
We like that kind of magic as opposed to actually having to go through the thought process itself.
我们喜欢这种魔法，而不是实际上必须经历思考过程本身。
So I'm not against having tools.
所以我并不反对拥有工具。
I use tools.
我使用工具。
I use the internet.
我使用互联网。
I use Google.
我用谷歌。
I'm searching for some factoid for my book.
我正在为我的书寻找一些事实。
I find it.
我找到了。
I use it.
我用它。
I like it.
我喜欢它。
But I've also learned to develop my brain to think, to get that engine constantly moving.
但我也学会了开发我的大脑来思考，让引擎不断运转。
And I'm deeply concerned about people who can't learn a foreign language, who can't master anything, who just immediately grab the first answer that it generates, et cetera.
我非常担心那些不会学习外语、无法掌握任何东西、只是立即抓住外语生成的第一个答案的人，等等。
I have concerns.
我有顾虑。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I am too, and I was thinking a moment ago that some people might hear what you just said and say, "Oh, well, the same thing was probably said about the automobile." How many amazing experiences of walking from one place to another are going to be lost when people start driving from one place to another?
我也是，刚才我在想，有些人可能会听到你刚才说的话，然后说，“哦，好吧，关于汽车，可能也说了同样的话。”当人们开始从一个地方开车到另一个地方时，有多少从一个地方步行到另一个地方的奇妙体验将会消失？
But I think a key difference And this certainly aligns with everything you just said, is that what you're talking about is not just arriving at the same destination.
但我认为一个关键的区别这肯定与你刚才所说的一切一致，那就是你所说的不仅仅是到达同一个目的地。
You're saying the destination itself is different when one exerts some effort and experiences some anxiety to get there.
你是说，当一个人付出一些努力并经历一些焦虑才能到达目的地时，目的地本身就不同了。
So it's not the same as automobile versus horse versus walking versus-
所以这与汽车与马、步行与-不同
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
airplane.
飞机。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's fundamentally different because the journey transforms the outcome.
这是根本不同的，因为旅程改变了结果。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I'm in agreement with you about many aspects of AI.
是的，我在人工智能的很多方面都同意你的观点。
I'm also excited about it in the context of certain things.
在某些事情的背景下我也对此感到兴奋。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
I agree with you.
我同意你的看法。
It could be a tool, but are we operating the tool or is the tool operating us, is what I'm talking about.
它可能是一个工具，但我所说的是我们在操作该工具还是工具在操作我们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I am concerned a bit too, especially in the context of what we've been talking about for most of today's discussion about avatars replacing our online personas too much.
我也有点担心，特别是在我们今天讨论的大部分内容中，我们一直在谈论头像过多地取代我们的在线角色。
The avatarization of ourselves is already taking place through filters, through a reduction of emotional expression to emojis, through reduction of language to a diminished number of words to explain one's feelings.
我们自己的化身已经通过过滤器、通过将情感表达减少为表情符号、通过将语言减少为更少的词语来解释自己的感受而发生。
A prior guest on this podcast, Lisa Feldman Barrett, who's an expert in emotions, talked about how the moment that a culture has a word for a particular subset of anxious feelings.
本播客的前任嘉宾丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特 (Lisa Feldman Barrett) 是一位情绪专家，她谈到了一种文化如何用一个词来形容特定的焦虑情绪。
So for instance, she taught me that in Japanese there's a word for the sadness one experiences when they get a bad haircut.
举例来说，她教我，在日语中有一个词来形容一个人在理发不好时所经历的悲伤。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah, I know.
是的，我知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so that normalizes the feeling and leads to feelings of less despair-
这样一来，这种感觉就会正常化，从而减少绝望的感觉——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as opposed to what now many kids especially grew up learning, which I'm anxious, I'm sad, I'm depressed.
与现在许多孩子尤其是长大后所学习的东西相反，我感到焦虑、悲伤、沮丧。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That in science, we say there are lumpers and there are splitters, and they've been arguing for years about like, is that one brain structure?
在科学中，我们说有集总者，也有分裂者，他们多年来一直争论这样的问题：这是一种大脑结构吗？
Well, if I name those two things next to each other, two different things, not only can I name one after myself, which is what tends to happen, so to speak, but when you have too many lumpers or too many splitters, things are either overly simple or overly complex that of course the right answer, the best use of naming things arrives someplace in the middle.
好吧，如果我把这两个东西并排命名，两个不同的东西，我不仅可以用我自己的名字来命名一个，可以这么说，这往往会发生，但是当你有太多的集总器或太多的分离器时，事情要么过于简单，要么过于复杂，当然正确的答案，命名事物的最佳用途就在中间的某个地方。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's how a field progresses because if you lump things together too much, a field can't progress.
这就是一个领域的进步方式，因为如果你把太多东西混在一起，一个领域就无法进步。
You give yourself the illusion that it's progressing, but it's not progressing.
你给自己一种它正在进步的错觉，但实际上并没有进步。
But if you split things up into a million different subcategories, like just even the word adrenaline is also called epinephrine, and it has to do with basically people arguing over who got credit.
但如果你把事情分成一百万个不同的子类别，就像肾上腺素这个词也被称为肾上腺素一样，它基本上与人们争论谁得到了功劳有关。
Crazy, and it's confused people for-
疯狂，这让人们感到困惑-
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Really?
真的吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for decades.
几十年来。
Yeah.
是的。
And there's another story there that, and I know far too much about the scientists involved and there was a love triangle about naming of certain parts of the nervous system that, oh yeah, people sleeping with other people's partners and love triangles have created more drama of nomenclature in science.
还有另一个故事，我对所涉及的科学家了解太多，并且有一个关于神经系统某些部分命名的三角恋，哦，是的，人们与其他人的伴侣睡觉和三角恋在科学命名法中创造了更多戏剧性。
I could do a whole-
我可以做一整个-
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Wow
哇
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
hour on this.
小时。
In any case, what I'm hearing from you is that we cannot afford to lose our sense of nuance, and also because that sense of nuance taps into what we're really experiencing.
无论如何，我从你们那里听到的是，我们不能失去细微差别的感觉，而且因为这种细微差别的感觉会触及我们真正正在经历的事情。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And AI threatens that, that we can become avatars of ourself.
人工智能威胁到我们可以成为自己的化身。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Well, look at it this way.
好吧，这样看。
We worship technology.
我们崇拜技术。
It's our new religion, okay?
这是我们的新宗教，好吗？
And we worship ChatGPT as if it's a god.
我们崇拜ChatGPT，就好像它是神一样。
Seriously, there's religious elements going on here.
说真的，这里有宗教元素。
What we really should worship is the human brain, which is the greatest creation in the known universe, I'm afraid.
我们真正应该崇拜的是人类的大脑，恐怕它是已知宇宙中最伟大的创造。
It is the most complex piece of matter in the entire universe.
它是整个宇宙中最复杂的物质。
The number of neurons, the number of synapses, the number of possible connections between neurons is infinite, practically infinite.
神经元的数量、突触的数量、神经元之间可能的连接的数量是无限的，实际上是无限的。
It is a wondrous instrument.
这是一种奇妙的乐器。
It is so powerful.
它是如此强大。
We've rarely scratched the surface of what we can use for it.
我们很少触及它的用途的表面。
Let us worship that brain that's in your head.
让我们崇拜你头脑中的大脑。
You only have so many years to use it.
你只有这么多年的时间来使用它。
You have only so many years to develop it.
你只有这么多年的时间来开发它。
It is so wonderful and powerful.
它是如此美妙和强大。
It can bring you such pleasure, so much power in life.
它可以给你带来如此多的快乐，如此多的生活力量。
So tools are fine.
所以工具很好。
We all need tools.
我们都需要工具。
We all need hammers.
我们都需要锤子。
We need nails.
我们需要钉子。
We need saws, et cetera.
我们需要锯子等等。
But the real thing is the hand that uses it, the brain that connects the hand to the hammer, that knows how to hit things.
但真正的东西是使用它的手，将手与锤子连接起来的大脑，它知道如何击打物体。
I think of the great painter Renoir in the 19th century.
我想起了19世纪伟大的画家雷诺阿。
He had a stroke or something.
他中风什么的。
In the last years, he couldn't move his right arm, which he painted with.
在过去的几年里，他用来作画的右臂无法移动。
And it was disastrous.
这是灾难性的。
So what he did is he put the brush in his mouth, and he painted, and he painted some beautiful paintings that way because his brain had mastered the art of painting, not his hand, but his brain had mastered it so well that he could actually paint well with the brush in his mouth because he could direct it, and he had the knowledge of how to make something perfect.
所以他所做的就是把画笔放在嘴里，然后画画，他就这样画了一些漂亮的画，因为他的大脑掌握了绘画的艺术，而不是他的手，但他的大脑掌握得很好，所以他实际上可以用嘴里的画笔画得很好，因为他可以指挥它，而且他有如何把东西变得完美的知识。
The brain is absolutely incredible.
大脑绝对不可思议。
The plasticity of the brain, which I'm discovering after my stroke, is absolutely a miracle.
我在中风后发现大脑的可塑性绝对是一个奇迹。
I don't know, is it Professor Schwartz at UCLA who was studying OCD and how he was able to kind of cure people of OCD through certain plasticity exercises that he had, making them aware of their kind of brain lock, et cetera, and getting them out of it?
我不知道，加州大学洛杉矶分校的施瓦茨教授正在研究强迫症，他是如何通过他进行的某些可塑性练习来治愈强迫症患者的，让他们意识到自己的大脑锁定等等，并让他们摆脱困境？
That plasticity of the brain is by far the greatest miracle of all, and it goes on into your 60s and 70s and onward.
大脑的可塑性是迄今为止最伟大的奇迹，并且它会一直持续到你的 60 多岁、70 多岁以及以后。
Let's all get down on our hands and knees and worship the brain, and if we did, it would create a complete shift in our values, and we wouldn't be so instantly seduced and enamored and worshiping the technology.
让我们都跪下来崇拜大脑，如果我们这样做，我们的价值观就会发生彻底的转变，我们就不会那么立即被诱惑、迷恋和崇拜技术。
We would worship the brains that create the technology instead of the other way around.
我们会崇拜创造技术的大脑，而不是相反。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I certainly got a fan of brains and their potential for plasticity sitting over here.
我当然喜欢坐在这里的大脑及其可塑性的潜力。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have the benefit of having my scientific great-grandparents are Hubel and Wiesel, who won the Nobel Prize for neuroplasticity during the critical period.
我的好处是，我的科学曾祖父母是休贝尔和威塞尔，他们在关键时期因神经可塑性获得了诺贝尔奖。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Say that again?
再说一遍？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So my scientific great-grandparents are David Hubel and Torsten Wiesel.
我的科学曾祖父母是大卫·休贝尔（David Hubel）和托斯顿·维塞尔（Torsten Wiesel）。
David's dead.
大卫死了。
Torsten's still alive.
托斯顿还活着。
He's 96.
他96岁了。
And they won the Nobel Prize for essentially discovering the critical window early in development where plasticity is especially robust.
他们因本质上发现了发育早期可塑性特别强的关键窗口而获得了诺贝尔奖。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They did other things, too.
他们还做了其他事情。
They should've won two Nobels, frankly, for their other work on vision.
坦率地说，他们应该因为在视觉方面的其他工作而赢得两项诺贝尔奖。
But one thing that they missed, however, was something that you mentioned and is worth highlighting again, which is that the brain maintains the capacity for immense plasticity throughout the entire lifespan.
但他们错过了你提到的并且值得再次强调的一件事，那就是大脑在整个生命周期中保持着巨大的可塑性能力。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Completely.
完全。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's absolutely clear.
这是绝对清楚的。
The conditions change from early to later in life, but your specific situation really highlights that, and it's something I'd really like to talk about for a few minutes, if you're willing.
从早年到晚年，情况会发生变化，但你的具体情况确实凸显了这一点，如果你愿意的话，我真的很想花几分钟谈谈这个问题。
As you mentioned, you experienced a stroke.
正如您提到的，您经历过中风。
And perhaps it was aware to some, but perhaps not to all, especially the people just listening to this podcast and who are not watching on video, that your shirt, while very nicely designed in its original state, also includes some unique stitching.
也许有些人，但也许不是所有人，尤其是那些只是听这个播客而不是观看视频的人都知道，你的衬衫虽然在原始状态下设计得非常漂亮，但也包括一些独特的缝线。
So maybe you could share with us.
所以也许你可以与我们分享。
And for those listening, there's a jagged line of stitching that extends from Robert's left short sleeve to his midline, to where the buttons on his shirt are, and from his right short sleeve also to the midline, offset from one another.
对于那些倾听的人来说，有一条锯齿状的缝线从罗伯特的左短袖延伸到他的中线，到他衬衫上的纽扣所在的位置，并且从他的右短袖也延伸到中线，彼此偏移。
This is the sort of stitching that looks like perhaps I had been at the sewing machine, and not somebody with skill, but they did a good job, basically, of putting it back together.
这种缝合看起来就像是我在缝纫机前操作的，而不是有技术的人，但基本上，他们把它重新组装起来做得很好。
Why are those stitches in your shirt?
为什么你的衬衫上有这些缝线？
Tell us about the stroke, and let's talk about neuroplasticity.
告诉我们关于中风的事，让我们谈谈神经可塑性。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
It could also seem like a fashion statement, but really, it isn't.
它也可能看起来像是一种时尚宣言，但实际上并非如此。
Well, it was May of 2018.
嗯，那是 2018 年 5 月。
It was my birthday, and my wife gave me this shirt.
这是我的生日，我的妻子送给我这件衬衫。
I have a love of plaids.
我对格子有一种热爱。
It's like, I don't know why.
就像，我不知道为什么。
I just love patterns, and plaids, it must be some Scotch part of me, some ancestor thing, but I love plaids.
我只是喜欢图案和格子图案，这一定是我的苏格兰部分，一些祖先的东西，但我喜欢格子图案。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can I interrupt you just briefly?
我可以简单地打断你一下吗？
Forgive me.
对不起。
Everyone's going to get upset that I interrupted.
每个人都会因为我打扰而感到不安。
Do you know that there is a fundamental circuit in your visual cortex designed to detect plaid patterns?
您是否知道您的视觉皮层中有一个旨在检测格子图案的基本电路？
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
No, I did not know that.
不，我不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes, and we can talk about why that is.
是的，我们可以谈谈为什么会这样。
It's tightly linked to your ability to perceive motion.
它与您感知运动的能力密切相关。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Really?
真的吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, and we can go over it some other time.
是的，我们可以改天再讨论。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
So we'll talk about it.
所以我们会讨论它。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Who knew?
谁知道？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just as a cue.
只是作为一个提示。
So okay, yes, back to your birthday.
好吧，是的，回到你的生日。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Okay.
好的。
So she gave me a plaid shirt, knowing how much I loved it, and I loved this shirt.
所以她给了我一件格子衬衫，知道我有多喜欢它，我也喜欢这件衬衫。
I loved the colors in it, et cetera.
我喜欢它的颜色等等。
And then two months, three months later, August 17, 2018, I was driving my car.
然后两个月、三个月后，2018 年 8 月 17 日，我正在开车。
She was with me.
她和我在一起。
I was pulling out into traffic.
我把车开进车流中。
I started driving, and suddenly she said, "Pull over, Robert.
我开始开车，突然她说：“靠边停车，罗伯特。
Pull over." I go, "Why?
靠边停车。”我说：“为什么？
I can drive.
我可以开车。
I'm fine." And then suddenly everything started getting really strange.
我很好。”然后突然一切都开始变得非常奇怪。
Everything looked strange.
一切看起来都很奇怪。
My voice didn't sound the same, and she was freaking out, but she was actually fairly calm, which was amazing.
我的声音听起来不太一样，她吓坏了，但实际上她相当平静，这真是太神奇了。
I was undergoing a stroke.
我当时正中风。
I had a blood clot that was blocking the blood flow to my brain.
我的血凝块阻碍了流向大脑的血液。
I actually, at one point, got out of the car.
事实上，我有一次下了车。
I don't know what the hell I was thinking, and then she pulled me back in, and then the rest goes blank.
我不知道我到底在想什么，然后她把我拉了回来，然后剩下的就一片空白了。
And I had some weird sensations that still remain with me because essentially, I was on the verge of dying, because blood not flowing to your brain is basically the end of you, right?
我有一些奇怪的感觉仍然伴随着我，因为本质上，我正处于死亡的边缘，因为血液不流向你的大脑基本上就是你的终结，对吗？
Unless something happens very quickly.
除非有什么事情发生得很快。
Either that or you can get severe brain damage.
要么这样，要么你会受到严重的脑损伤。
So she called 911 right away.
于是她立即拨打了911。
She recognized something.
她认出了一些东西。
My whole face was looking funny, and they got there.
我的整张脸看起来很滑稽，他们就到了。
I was unconscious, and essentially, they took this shirt, and they just scissored the thing in half and took it off my head, and then they intubated me, I believe, in my hip area to get something.
我失去了知觉，本质上，他们拿走了这件衬衫，他们只是把它剪成两半，把它从我的头上取下来，然后他们在我的臀部区域插管以获取一些东西。
The blood clot was in my neck, and they were able to free it up, and they rushed me to the hospital.
血块在我的脖子上，他们把它弄出来了，然后他们把我送往医院。
And I'm unconscious, and then I wake up, and I'm in a gurney in the hospital.
我失去知觉，然后醒来，发现自己躺在医院的轮床上。
And for a moment, I'm thinking maybe I'm dead, because I'm lying in a gurney, and I almost feel like I'm in a coffin.
有那么一刻，我想也许我已经死了，因为我躺在轮床上，我几乎感觉自己是在棺材里。
I don't know what's going on, and I have all of these weird sensations.
我不知道发生了什么，我有所有这些奇怪的感觉。
And I tell people we're so curious about death.
我告诉人们我们对死亡非常好奇。
We think about death a lot and is it final?
我们经常思考死亡，死亡是最终的结局吗？
What does it mean?
这是什么意思？
We really should pay attention to dying.
我们确实应该关注死亡。
Dying is actually much more interesting in some ways than death.
在某些方面，死亡实际上比死亡更有趣。
And people who have died go through a process if it's long enough, and people who have had near-death experiences, like I do, have gone through that process of dying and have come back to life.
死去的人会经历一个过程，如果时间足够长的话，而像我这样有过濒死经历的人，已经经历了死亡的过程，然后又复活了。
And in the process of dying, strange things happen to the brain, right?
在死亡的过程中，大脑会发生奇怪的事情，对吗？
So particularly with a stroke or something like that, where blood stops flowing to your-- oxygen stops flowing to your brain, you have kind of visions and things that you might think are hallucinations, but that later seem like actually you are actually glimpsing the reality as opposed to the illusion that the brain creates.
特别是在中风或类似的情况下，血液停止流向你的大脑，氧气停止流向你的大脑，你会出现一些幻觉和一些你可能认为是幻觉的东西，但后来看起来，你实际上看到了现实，而不是大脑创造的幻觉。
So I've written about this in my new book, but my idea of the brain is that it creates endless series of illusions for you.
所以我在我的新书中写到了这一点，但我对大脑的看法是，它为你创造了无穷无尽的幻象。
It creates this seamless version of reality, the sense of a self, the sense of a continuous self through time, right?
它创造了现实的无缝版本，自我意识，随着时间的推移而连续的自我意识，对吧？
It creates a linear sense of time progressions.
它创造了时间进展的线性感。
It creates colors.
它创造颜色。
It creates a world that visually seems familiar, and et cetera.
它创造了一个视觉上看起来熟悉的世界等等。
But it's all illusion.
但这都是幻觉。
It's all a construction, right?
这都是建筑，对吧？
Images come into your brain, and they're not organized in any way, and the brain organizes in a way that you can understand it.
图像进入你的大脑，它们没有以任何方式组织，大脑以你可以理解的方式组织。
Well, when you're dying, all of that scrambles up, and you actually are seeing something else.
好吧，当你快要死的时候，所有这些都会乱七八糟，而你实际上看到的是别的东西。
So I saw, for instance, that I really don't have a self, that it doesn't really actually exist.
例如，我看到我真的没有自我，它实际上并不存在。
And the image that came to my mind, because it was in sitting in that gurney, was a weird feeling of like-- I can almost not explain it, but it's as if you took an image of something real in the world, and you completely scrambled it up, and it was all wavy, and you couldn't see what exactly it was.
我脑海中浮现的图像，因为坐在那张轮床上，有一种奇怪的感觉——我几乎无法解释它，但就好像你拍了一张世界上真实的东西的图像，然后你把它完全打乱了，它都是波浪形的，你看不到它到底是什么。
To me, that was the image I had of the self.
对我来说，这就是我的自我形象。
There are, like, 50 different selves inside of you That are all competing.
你的内心有 50 个不同的自我，它们都在竞争。
And you think there's just one, and you think it's consistent, but there's not.
你认为只有一个，你认为它是一致的，但事实并非如此。
It's an illusion.
这是一种幻觉。
The self is literally an illusion that your brain constructs.
自我实际上是你的大脑构建的幻觉。
When you're dying, you see these things.
当你快要死的时候，你会看到这些东西。
When you're dying, you see other things like that.
当你快要死的时候，你会看到其他类似的东西。
You see that time is something very weird.
你看，时间是一件非常奇怪的事情。
So I had an experience of when I got out of the car and I got pulled in, I thought 10 seconds had passed.
所以我有这样的经历，当我下车然后被拉进来的时候，我以为已经过去了10秒。
My wife told me, "No, that was like 10 minutes." I had no sense of time.
我的妻子告诉我：“不，那大约是 10 分钟。”我没有时间观念。
Everything was scrambled.
一切都被搅乱了。
And so it was very, very eloquent.
所以它非常非常雄辩。
It taught me so much, things that I can barely even express now.
它教会了我很多东西，我现在几乎无法表达。
I'm always now thinking of strange things that come to me because my brain was damaged.
由于我的大脑受损，我现在总是在想一些奇怪的事情。
It made me realize that the brain creates everything.
它让我意识到大脑创造了一切。
So I can't communicate with my hand, my fingers.
所以我无法用我的手、我的手指进行交流。
My brain can't communicate with my leg.
我的大脑无法与我的腿沟通。
Right?
正确的？
So you think that walking and writing and handling things is just your body operating a certain way.
所以你认为走路、写作和处理事情只是你的身体以某种方式运作。
It's your brain telling you how to move these different things.
是你的大脑告诉你如何移动这些不同的东西。
When that brain stops functioning, you realize how much your brain determines everything.
当大脑停止运作时，你就会意识到你的大脑在多大程度上决定了一切。
It all starts there.
一切都从那里开始。
And when there's damage to your brain, your whole thinking alters, et cetera, not to mention how you look at life itself after something like that.
当你的大脑受损时，你的整个思维都会改变，等等，更不用说在类似的事情之后你如何看待生活本身了。
So it was a terrible experience.
所以这是一次可怕的经历。
It's ruined so many things that I loved in life, but it's given me an awful lot as well in return that I could go on for hours and talk about because it was the most powerful experience of my life.
它毁了我生命中所热爱的很多事情，但它也给了我很多回报，我可以花几个小时谈论它，因为这是我一生中最强大的经历。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When you were going through your reemergence to consciousness in the hospital, did you feel as if you were observing these multiple versions of yourself?
当你在医院恢复意识时，你是否感觉自己正在观察这些多重版本的自己？
Maybe a different way to phrase it is, did you feel you were sort of behind the circuit board that is your brain, observing how you normally function, and you could see multiple versions of self?
也许换一种表达方式是，你是否觉得自己在大脑电路板后面，观察你平时的运作方式，并且你可以看到自我的多个版本？
Or was it something else, were you sort of outside of your body and brain?
或者是别的什么，你是在你的身体和大脑之外吗？
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
I think it was more outside of my body and brain.
我认为它更多的是在我的身体和大脑之外。
I also had this other thing that happened where...
我还遇到过另一件事......
Sometimes your memory might be playing tricks on you.
有时你的记忆可能会欺骗你。
So I also have to realize that maybe I'm not remembering exactly what happened, or that I've since translated it in a different way.
所以我也必须意识到，也许我记不清到底发生了什么，或者我已经用不同的方式翻译了它。
So that's a caveat here, and I'm aware of it.
所以这是一个警告，我知道这一点。
But I had this vision that I was dead when I first became conscious, and that I was up in the sky and I was looking down, and my mother and my wife were talking, and it was over my grave, I suppose.
但我有这样的幻象：当我第一次有意识时，我已经死了，我在天上，我向下看，我的母亲和我的妻子正在说话，我想它就在我的坟墓上。
And I had this feeling, ah, everything's okay.
我有这样的感觉，啊，一切都好。
I'm gone, but life goes on.
我走了，但生活还要继续。
They're doing fine.
他们做得很好。
It's okay.
没关系。
Right?
正确的？
So I don't know about that sense of self, whether it was like I'm aware of it happening, but I have a feeling it was something from the outside.
所以我不知道那种自我意识，我是否意识到它发生了，但我有一种感觉，这是来自外部的东西。
I don't really know the answer to that because it's very confused.
我真的不知道答案，因为它非常混乱。
The other feeling I had when I was having the stroke was life draining out of me and my bones getting softer and softer and softer.
当我中风时，我的另一种感觉是生命在耗尽，我的骨头变得越来越软。
And I can't really logically explain that, the feeling of bones softening up and dissolving.
我无法真正从逻辑上解释这种骨头软化和溶解的感觉。
But for weeks and months afterwards, I could access that feeling of my bones dissolving, et cetera.
但在之后的几周和几个月里，我可以体会到骨头溶解的感觉，等等。
It was a feeling of all your energy draining out of you, and you're dying, literally.
这是一种你所有的能量都被耗尽的感觉，你真的快要死了。
So, reading books about near-death experiences, because that's a big part of my next book, God, it's fascinating.
所以，阅读有关濒死体验的书籍，因为这是我下一本书的重要组成部分，上帝，这很有趣。
There's so many interesting things to go in because it teaches us so much.
有很多有趣的事情要做，因为它教会了我们很多东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I'm so glad that, A, you survived your stroke, B, that your mental faculties-
嗯，我很高兴，A，你在中风中幸存下来，B，你的智力-
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
You're not more grateful than I am, I can tell you .
我可以告诉你，你并不比我更感激。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Probably not, but still very grateful.
可能不是，但还是非常感激。
So there.
就这样。
It just illustrates how grateful you must be.
这只是说明你必须多么感激。
B, that you've maintained, if not grown, your mental faculties.
B，你的心智能力即使没有成长，也得到了保持。
You seem extremely sharp.
你看起来非常敏锐。
I promise you, you're not missing a beat.
我向你保证，你不会错过任何一个节拍。
One always wonders, right?
人们总是想知道，对吗？
Actually, one of the most common fears people have is that somehow they're losing their mind or their memory, and they aren't aware of it.
事实上，人们最常见的恐惧之一是他们不知何故失去了理智或记忆，而他们却没有意识到这一点。
I have family members who have asked that if they ever start to exhibit signs of severe dementia, that I put an end to them.
我的一些家人问我，如果他们开始表现出严重痴呆的迹象，我就结束他们。
Which I won't.
我不会。
That's not my place in this world.
那不是我在这个世界上的位置。
But I think it's a common fear among people.
但我认为这是人们普遍的恐惧。
But you're still extremely sharp, and thank goodness for it.
但你仍然非常敏锐，谢天谢地。
And you mentioned that while you've lost certain abilities, that new appreciation and new abilities have surfaced.
你提到，虽然你失去了某些能力，但新的欣赏和新的能力已经出现。
Could you perhaps share what some of those are and what they mean to you?
您能否分享其中一些内容以及它们对您意味着什么？
Because I think that when one hears about somebody having a stroke, we tend to focus on what's lacking, but clearly this has been a transformative experience also in positive ways.
因为我认为，当人们听说有人中风时，我们往往会关注自己的不足，但显然，这也是一次积极的变革性经历。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Well, I had to confront some of my own demons.
好吧，我必须面对我自己的一些恶魔。
I had to confront the sense that I expected things out of life, and here they're taken away, and I'm kind of ungrateful for being alive, and here I'm pissed off that it takes me 10 minutes to tie my shoes and I can't really button my shirt.
我不得不面对这样一种感觉：我对生活抱有期望，但在这里，它们被拿走了，我对自己还活着有点忘恩负义，我很生气，我花了 10 分钟来系鞋带，而且我无法真正扣上衬衫的扣子。
I had to learn what really matters and to have patience and stuff.
我必须了解什么是真正重要的，并且要有耐心和其他东西。
The other thing was, I used to love hiking and was very physically active, and I'm sitting at my window in my office, and I see people running up and down, bicycling, walking their dogs.
另一件事是，我曾经喜欢徒步旅行，非常活跃，我坐在办公室的窗户前，看到人们跑来跑去，骑自行车，遛狗。
God, I'm so envious.
天呐我好羡慕啊
If I could walk a dog right now, I'd be the happiest person alive.
如果我现在能遛狗，我将是世界上最幸福的人。
But then I go through a thought process which maybe isn't completely healthy, which is, they're not aware of how wonderful it is just to walk a dog.
但后来我经历了一个可能并不完全健康的思考过程，也就是说，他们不知道遛狗是多么美妙。
But I'm aware of it.
但我知道这一点。
So when I go out in my backyard and I can't walk, and I'm seeing like...
所以当我出去到后院而我无法行走时，我看到......
I know this is going to sound really triacly and sentimental, but I see ...
我知道这听起来真的很三重和感伤，但我明白......
butterflies or things in my garden, I'm like, "Wow, that's incredible." Things like that, that I couldn't appreciate before because I'm sedentary and I can't move.
当我看到花园里的蝴蝶或其他东西时，我就想，“哇，这太不可思议了。”诸如此类的事情，我以前无法欣赏，因为我久坐不动，无法动弹。
I have to suddenly pay attention to what's around me, not take it for granted, and suck all of the pleasure out of it that I can.
我必须突然注意周围的事物，而不是认为这是理所当然的，并尽我所能地从中吸取所有的快乐。
So now, when I sit at my desk to write my new book, it's four hours because that's all I can stand, maybe three sometimes.
所以现在，当我坐在办公桌前写我的新书时，需要四个小时，因为这是我所能忍受的，有时甚至三个小时。
Those four hours are such bliss for me.
这四个小时对我来说真是幸福。
I truly appreciate it now because I know that my brain was almost gone.
我现在真的很感激，因为我知道我的大脑几乎已经消失了。
So it means so much for me.
所以这对我来说意义重大。
And to just be alive is just a wondrous experience.
活着就是一种奇妙的经历。
I have a chapter in my new book called "Awaken to the Strangeness of Being Alive," and it's about the fact that if you think about it, and how unlikely it is that we humans evolved at all, even that we even exist, all the bottlenecks in evolution that we had to pass through, including the disappearance of the dinosaurs and the emergence of mammals, but there are 20 other huge bottlenecks throughout the history of evolution.
我的新书里有一章叫《唤醒活着的奇异性》，讲的是这样一个事实：如果你想一想，我们人类根本不可能进化，即使我们存在，我们必须经历的所有进化瓶颈，包括恐龙的消失和哺乳动物的出现，但在整个进化史上还有另外20个巨大的瓶颈。
We had to pass through all of those.
我们必须经历所有这些。
We nearly went extinct 80,000 years ago from some virus that infected, there were only 8,000 people, humans on the planet.
八万年前，我们几乎因某种病毒感染而灭绝，地球上只有八千人。
All these different things, and here we are with Zoom meetings, et cetera.
所有这些不同的事情，我们在这里举行 Zoom 会议等等。
It's like the strangest story you can ever...
这就像你能听到的最奇怪的故事......
It's beyond science fiction.
这已经超出了科幻小说的范围。
But nobody thinks about it.
但没有人思考这个问题。
Nobody sits down and goes, "God, I'm alive." If you went back to the chain of people that had to connect and have children leading up to your parents, the unlikeliness of you ever being born is astronomical.
没有人坐下来说：“上帝，我还活着。”如果你回到必须与父母联系并生孩子的人链，那么你出生的可能性是天文数字。
Unless my science is all wrong.
除非我的科学全错了。
70,000 generations of people meeting, et cetera, finally ending at your DNA.
70,000代人的相遇，等等，最终以你的DNA结束。
Unless I'm missing something, it's pretty unlikely.
除非我遗漏了什么，否则这是不太可能的。
But nobody thinks about it.
但没有人思考这个问题。
Well, I certainly think about it now because I almost died.
嗯，我现在确实在想这件事，因为我差点就死了。
I had nothing else to think about.
我没有别的事可想。
I have to entertain my brain the way Milton Erickson had to entertain himself by observing people.
我必须像米尔顿·埃里克森通过观察别人来娱乐自己一样娱乐我的大脑。
So it's taken a lot away from me.
所以它离我很远。
I can't swim.
我不会游泳。
I'm riding my recumbent bike, which I love, and 80-year-old grandmothers are zipping by me, and I'm like, "God damn it.
我骑着我喜欢的卧式自行车，80 岁的祖母从我身边疾驰而过，我心想，“该死的。
How awful." I'm so envious.
多么可怕啊。”我好羡慕啊
My insecurities all well up.
我的不安全感全部涌上来。
But then I realize, hey, I'm on a boat.
但后来我意识到，嘿，我在船上。
I'm sailing.
我正在航行。
It's wonderful.
太棒了。
I'm outside.
我在外面。
I have to go through these processes, but I think it's developed me in some way that's, in the end, very positive.
我必须经历这些过程，但我认为这在某种程度上让我得到了发展，最终是非常积极的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It sounds like you've had to adjust to a new frame rate on life.
听起来您必须适应新的生活帧速率。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The old movie had a certain frame rate.
老电影有一定的帧率。
This movie has a certain frame rate.
这部电影有一定的帧速率。
But that within that frame rate, there are gifts to be had that you certainly missed in your prior version of self.
但在这个帧速率内，你肯定会拥有一些你在之前版本的自我中错过的礼物。
Is that a fair-
这公平吗——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
But also, I tell people this, I totally took my life for granted.
但我也告诉人们，我完全认为我的生活是理所当然的。
I was swimming all this time.
我一直在游泳。
It was fantastic.
太棒了。
I was bicycling, I was traveling, but I never sat back and thought, "Wow, this is wonderful, how grateful it could be taken away from me." I tell people, "Don't do that to yourself." I try and teach them.
我骑自行车，我旅行，但我从来没有坐下来想，“哇，这太棒了，多么感激它能从我身边夺走。”我告诉人们，“不要这样对自己。”我试着教他们。
It can be taken away from you tomorrow.
明天它就可以从你身边被拿走。
When you're out walking the dog, think of me that can't walk a dog, and appreciate those things which I didn't appreciate.
当你出去遛狗的时候，想想不会遛狗的我，去欣赏那些我不欣赏的东西。
So I try and help people in that way when I can.
所以我会尽可能地以这种方式帮助人们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think a critical message is also to inspire a sense of urgency in people.
我认为一个重要的信息还在于激发人们的紧迫感。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think people hear a sense of urgency, and they go, "Oh, God, I'm already under so much pressure.
我认为人们听到了一种紧迫感，然后他们会说：“哦，上帝，我已经承受了很大的压力。
Life's so hard." But we're not talking about a sense of urgency to take on more of what life has to offer.
生活是如此艰难。”但我们并不是在谈论承担更多生活所提供的东西的紧迫感。
I think we're talking about a sense of urgency to find one's purpose, which takes work, and is an ongoing process.
我认为我们谈论的是寻找自己目标的紧迫感，这需要努力，并且是一个持续的过程。
But to really get out of modes of apathy, laziness, languishing, and to start, as you've described it, paying deeper attention.
但要真正摆脱冷漠、懒惰、萎靡不振的模式，并开始，正如你所描述的，更加深入地关注。
This is a concept that was super important for me to hear about, and I learned about it from you, was how do you get yourself out of a rut?
这是一个对我来说非常重要的概念，我是从你那里了解到的，你如何让自己摆脱困境？
You start paying deeper attention to the things around you and inside you.
你开始更加关注周围和内心的事物。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And perhaps not coincidentally, you referred to that as, quote, "death ground."
也许并非巧合，您将其称为“死亡之地”。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
So it's a strategy from my book.
这是我书中的一个策略。
I wrote a book on strategy, my version of "The Art of War." It's called "33 Strategies of War," but it's really about strategy, strategic thinking.
我写了一本关于战略的书，我的版本的《孙子兵法》。它被称为“战争三十三战略”，但它实际上是关于战略、战略思维的。
It's inspired from Sun Tzu, the great Chinese strategist, but it has vast philosophical implications.
它的灵感来自中国伟大的战略家孙子，但它具有广泛的哲学含义。
The idea is you can almost think of it like barometric pressure.
这个想法是你几乎可以把它想象成大气压。
When necessity is pressing in on you, like your back is against the wall, like you have to get something done, and there's this pressure around you, you find energy in there that you never believed before.
当必要性向你施压时，就像你的背靠在墙上，就像你必须完成某件事，并且你周围有这种压力，你会发现你以前从未相信过的能量。
William James talks about this when he talks about getting a second wind, which explains it very eloquently.
威廉·詹姆斯（William James）在谈到“重获新生”时谈到了这一点，这非常雄辩地解释了这一点。
When you feel like your life's in danger, suddenly you can leap over things that you never could leap over before.
当你感觉自己的生命处于危险之中时，你突然可以跳过以前无法跳过的东西。
So Sun Tzu says, "Put an army on death ground and it will fight until it wins." Meaning, put an army with its back to the ocean or a back to the mountain, and it's either win or die, they're going to fight 10 times harder.
所以孙子说：“将兵置于死地，必战至胜”。意思是，让一支军队背靠大海或背靠山，要么赢，要么死，他们的战斗力会增加10倍。
You're going to find the energy in you that you normally lack when death is facing you in the face or urgency or deadlines or people pressing in on you.
当你面临死亡、紧迫感、最后期限或人们逼迫你时，你会发现你体内通常缺乏的能量。
When that barometric pressure loosens up and there's none of it, you think you have all the time in the world, you get nothing done.
当气压放松并且什么都没有时，你认为你拥有世界上所有的时间，但你什么也做不了。
Wow, man.
哇，伙计。
I'm 23.
我23岁了。
I've got all these years ahead of me.
我还有这么多年的时间等着我。
I'm going to figure it out, right?
我会想办法的，对吗？
I'm not going to die.
我不会死。
I got 50, 70, 80 years ahead of me.
我比我早了50年、70年、80年。
No, you don't.
不，你不知道。
That pressure now is gone, and you're wasting time.
现在压力消失了，你在浪费时间。
You're doing all sorts of things that aren't leading to any kind of skill.
你做的各种各样的事情并不会带来任何技能。
You're not learning or anything.
你没有学习什么的。
You need to put yourself on death ground.
你需要把自己置于死亡之地。
You need to feel that barometric pressure, which is the actual reality.
你需要感受到气压，这就是现实。
The actual reality is you could die tomorrow.
实际的现实是你明天可能就会死。
You could have a stroke tomorrow.
你明天可能会中风。
You could be fired tomorrow.
明天你可能会被解雇。
Everything could fall apart.
一切都可能崩溃。
You need to have that sense of urgency now because that's the reality.
你现在需要有紧迫感，因为这就是现实。
You're fooling yourself by thinking you have all of this time.
你以为你拥有所有这些时间，这是在欺骗自己。
And so when you feel that pressure, suddenly you can move mountains.
因此，当你感受到这种压力时，你突然就能移山。
You have energy, you just have focus, et cetera.
你有能量，你有注意力，等等。
Neurologically, everything clicks in.
从神经学上来说，一切都很顺利。
And people who've had that experience where they've felt like the ship was going under and they better get their act together and survive, they talk about all these physical processes.
那些有过这种经历的人，他们感觉船正在沉没，他们最好齐心协力并生存下来，他们谈论所有这些物理过程。
I have a story in my new book, I hope I'm not boring you with all this-
我的新书中有一个故事，我希望我不会让你觉得无聊-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No. Please
不，请
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
...
...
about a-
关于一个-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Quite the opposite
恰恰相反
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
...
...
about a mountain climber who was climbing this mountain by himself, and he was having a great time, but there was a storm coming and he had to get down, and he suddenly fell, and he cut his leg open massively, and there was a branch sticking in it.
讲的是一个登山者独自爬这座山，他玩得很开心，但是暴风雨来了，他不得不下来，他突然摔倒了，他的腿被划破了一大口，里面插着一根树枝。
And he broke all these bones and he was going to die.
他折断了所有这些骨头，他就要死了。
He was on a ledge.
他在一个壁架上。
He could see that it was getting dark and storm clouds were massing.
他看到天色渐渐暗下来，乌云正在聚集。
This was in the Rocky Mountains.
这是在落基山脉。
He was alone, and suddenly he managed to get up on his two feet, and he can't explain how, but all of this energy, all this adrenaline started flowing in him, and he said he was like a mountain goat.
他独自一人，突然他设法用两只脚站了起来，他无法解释是怎么做到的，但是所有这些能量，所有这些肾上腺素开始在他体内流动，他说他就像一只山羊。
He was going down the ledge.
他正在走下窗台。
He jumped.
他跳了起来。
He was able to kind of get down to another ledge.
他能够走到另一个壁架上。
He got out of it.
他摆脱了困境。
And for the next 20 years, he was haunted by, "How did that happen?
在接下来的20年里，他一直被这样的问题所困扰：“这是怎么发生的？
I want that feeling again because it was actually the most ecstatic feeling.
我想要再次获得那种感觉，因为这实际上是最欣喜若狂的感觉。
I had energy that I never suspected in myself." And so he tries everything to get that feeling back.
我拥有我从未怀疑过的能量。”所以他想尽一切办法来找回那种感觉。
He tries climbing other mountains.
他尝试攀登其他山峰。
He tries going to Mount Everest.
他尝试去珠穆朗玛峰。
He tries it, and it doesn't come back.
他尝试了一下，但它没有回来。
And finally, he kind of figures out the formula for it and why it happened.
最后，他弄清楚了它的公式以及它发生的原因。
He studies a lot of neuroscience.
他研究了很多神经科学。
It's a great book.
这是一本很棒的书。
I'm using it in my new book.
我在我的新书中使用它。
It's called "Bone Games." It's a very interesting book, a lot of science in it.
这就是所谓的“骨头游戏”。这是一本非常有趣的书，里面有很多科学知识。
And he got the feeling back in a smaller sense, but it was the feeling of, "Your life is in danger.
他在较小的意义上恢复了这种感觉，但那是一种感觉，“你的生命处于危险之中。
I better get my act together or it's the end." And suddenly, adrenaline, dopamine, all the other things were occurring in him, and he found that energy.
我最好振作起来，否则就结束了。”突然间，肾上腺素、多巴胺，所有其他的东西都在他身上发生了，他找到了那种能量。
So, that's the ultimate kind of death ground right there.
所以，那是终极的死亡之地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The human will to live is truly incredible.
人类的生存意志确实令人难以置信。
And so now I have to say, as I said before, I'm so grateful that your stroke didn't take you out because clearly there's still so much in there-
所以现在我不得不说，正如我之前所说，我很感激你的中风没有让你离开，因为显然还有很多东西在里面——
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and you're continuing to share what is really exquisitely useful knowledge.
并且您将继续分享真正非常有用的知识。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Oh, thank you.
哦，谢谢。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's just kind of astonishing to me.
这对我来说有点令人惊讶。
I started off today's discussion expressing my gratitude for what you've already done for my life and for the lives of so many other people through your books.
我在今天的讨论开始时表达了对您通过您的书为我的生活以及许多其他人的生活所做的一切的感激之情。
It's clear you've been on a foraging exploration and that foraging for organizing and communicating information, mainly in the form of written books, but also online content.
很明显，您一直在寻找组织和交流信息的探索，主要以书面书籍的形式，但也包括在线内容。
You have a terrific YouTube channel, which I've subscribed to and follow-
你有一个非常棒的 YouTube 频道，我已订阅并关注该频道 -
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Oh, good
哦，好啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and listen to with rapt attention.
并全神贯注地聆听。
And the other venues with which you share information, including this one today, are really, truly valuable and appreciated.
您分享信息的其他场所，包括今天的这个场所，都非常非常有价值和值得赞赏。
So I want to say on behalf of myself and for those that have known you and your work for a number of years, but also for the many people that are now sure to know who you are and what you're about, that it's just so clear that this stuff comes from the heart, and that whatever early seed planted this- ...
所以我想代表我自己以及那些认识你和你的工作多年的人说，也为现在肯定知道你是谁、你是做什么的很多人说，很明显，这些东西是发自内心的，无论早期播下的种子是什么——......
that we're all grateful for and better off as a consequence of that seed.
我们都对这颗种子心怀感激，并因此而过得更好。
So, I could make this list very, very long with the number of specific ways in which you've improved the journey through life and made it clearer.
所以，我可以把这个清单写得很长很长，列出你改善人生旅程并使之更清晰的具体方式。
Life certainly can be hard, but it also can be really confusing, and I feel that the Robert Greene roadmap, even though it's but one roadmap, is an extremely valuable map to have and to use.
生活当然可能很艰难，但也可能非常令人困惑，我觉得罗伯特·格林路线图，尽管它只是一个路线图，但却是一张非常有价值的地图，值得拥有和使用。
Certainly has been for me.
当然是为了我。
So, just an enormous thank you, Robert.
所以，非常感谢你，罗伯特。
Thanks for sharing today, and thanks for all you do and all that you're still doing and sure to do in the future.
感谢您今天的分享，感谢您所做的一切以及您仍在做和将来肯定要做的所有事情。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Oh, thank you.
哦，谢谢。
I wish I could find the word for explaining the kind of weird emotions that I'm feeling when I hear that.
我希望我能找到一个词来解释当我听到这句话时我所感受到的那种奇怪的情绪。
There isn't...
没有...
Maybe Yiddish, maybe verklempt or something, I don't know, but thank you, yeah.
也许是意第绪语，也许是 verklemp 之类的，我不知道，但是谢谢你，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, we'll have to have you back here again when your next book comes out.
好吧，当你的下一本书出版时，我们必须再次邀请你回到这里。
Can't wait, but we will wait.
等不及了，但我们会等。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All right.
好吧。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Yeah.
是的。
Hopefully, I'm still around.
希望我还在。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm confident you will be.
我相信你会的。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Okay.
好的。
Okay, good.
好的，很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Come back again.
再回来吧。
Robert Greene:
罗伯特·格林：
Thank you, Andrew.
谢谢你，安德鲁。
Thanks very much.
非常感谢。
I hope I will.
我希望我会的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Robert Greene.
感谢您参加今天与罗伯特·格林的讨论。
I hope you found the conversation to be as stimulating as I did.
我希望你和我一样觉得这次谈话很刺激。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on both Spotify and Apple, and on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
另外，请在 Spotify 和 Apple 上订阅该播客，在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们留下五星级的评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客或嘉宾有意见，或者您希望我为 Huberman Lab 播客考虑的主题，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
Not on today's episode, but on many previous episodes of the Huberman Lab podcast, we discuss supplements.
不是在今天的节目中，而是在 Huberman Lab 播客的许多之前的节目中，我们讨论了补充剂。
While supplements aren't necessary for everybody, many people derive tremendous benefit from them, for things like improving sleep, for hormone support, and for focus.
虽然补充剂并不是每个人都需要的，但许多人都从它们中获得了巨大的好处，例如改善睡眠、支持激素和集中注意力。
To see the supplements discussed on the Huberman Lab podcast, you can go to Live Momentous, spelled O-U-S, so that's livemomentous.com/huberman.
要查看 Huberman Lab 播客上讨论的补充内容，您可以访问 Live Momentous，拼写为 O-U-S，即 livemomentous.com/huberman。
If you're not already following me on social media, I am hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 hubermanlab。
So that's Instagram, X, Threads, LinkedIn, and Facebook.
这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、LinkedIn 和 Facebook。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容不同。
Again, it's hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
再说一遍，所有社交媒体平台上都是 hubermanlab。
If you haven't already subscribed to our monthly Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as toolkits.
如果您还没有订阅我们的每月神经网络新闻通讯，神经网络新闻通讯是一份零成本的每月新闻通讯，其中包括播客摘要和工具包。
The toolkits are brief PDFs that you can download that give you tools for things like neuroplasticity and learning, for managing dopamine, for enhancing sleep, for physical performance, flexibility, deliberate cold exposure, and on and on.
这些工具包是简短的 PDF 文件，您可以下载它们，为您提供诸如神经可塑性和学习、管理多巴胺、增强睡眠、身体表现、灵活性、故意冷暴露等方面的工具。
To join the Neural Network Newsletter, you simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab, scroll down to Newsletter, and enter your email.
要加入神经网络新闻通讯，您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到“菜单”选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件。
We do not share your email with anybody.
我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Robert Greene.
再次感谢您参加今天与罗伯特·格林的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。