Rick Rubin: Protocols to Access Creative Energy and Process
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Rick Rubin.
今天我的客人是里克·鲁宾。
Rick Rubin is a world-renowned music producer, having worked with an enormous number of incredible artists, producing, for instance, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Beastie Boys, Jay-Z, Johnny Cash, Adele, Lady Gaga, Tom Petty, and of course, Slayer.
里克·鲁宾 (Rick Rubin) 是一位世界知名的音乐制作人，曾与众多令人难以置信的艺术家合作，制作过红辣椒 (Red Hot Chili Peppers)、野兽男孩 (Beastie Boys)、Jay-Z、约翰尼·卡什 (Johnny Cash)、阿黛尔 (Adele)、Lady Gaga、汤姆·佩蒂 (Tom Petty)，当然还有 Slayer。
This last year, Rick also authored his first book, which is a truly incredible exploration into the creative process.
去年，里克还创作了他的第一本书，这是对创作过程的真正令人难以置信的探索。
His book is entitled "The Creative Act: A Way of Being." Rick has appeared once before on the Huberman Lab podcast, and during that appearance, he offered to answer listeners' and viewers' questions.
他的书的标题是“创造性行为：一种存在方式”。里克之前曾出现在休伯曼实验室播客上，在那次露面期间，他主动提出回答听众和观众的问题。
Those questions were put in the comment section on YouTube, and we received thousands of them.
这些问题被放在 YouTube 的评论部分，我们收到了数千个问题。
So today, Rick answers your questions about the creative process.
今天，里克回答了您有关创作过程的问题。
I also took note of the feedback that when Rick previously appeared on the Huberman Lab podcast, that perhaps I spoke a bit more than the audience would have preferred.
我还注意到了这样的反馈：当 Rick 之前出现在 Huberman Lab 播客上时，也许我说的比观众喜欢的要多一些。
So today, I refrain from speaking too much and try and give as much airtime as possible to Rick in order to directly answer your questions.
所以今天我不会说太多，而是尽量给Rick留出尽可能多的通话时间，以便直接回答大家的问题。
You'll notice that today's discussion gets really into the practical aspects of the creative process.
您会注意到今天的讨论真正涉及了创作过程的实际方面。
The most frequent questions that I received for Rick were ones in which people really want to understand what his specific process is each and every day, as well as when he's producing music or other forms of art.
我收到的关于 Rick 最常见的问题是人们真正想了解他每天的具体过程是什么，以及他何时制作音乐或其他形式的艺术。
And of course, people want to know what they should do specifically from the time they wake up until the time they go to sleep, even whether or not they should take note of their dreams, et cetera.
当然，人们想知道从醒来到睡觉之间具体应该做什么，甚至是否应该记下自己的梦等等。
We get into all of that.
我们深入了解这一切。
So today's discussion is very different from the one I held with Rick previously and, at least to my knowledge, from any of the other interviews or discussions that Rick has had publicly.
因此，今天的讨论与我之前与 Rick 进行的讨论非常不同，至少据我所知，与 Rick 公开进行的任何其他采访或讨论都非常不同。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
There is so much NFL on ESPN right now.
ESPN 上现在有很多 NFL 节目。
"Monday Night Football," plus pre-game and post-game.
“周一橄榄球之夜”以及赛前和赛后。
"NFL Live," "NFL Prime Time." Everything you need to stay on top of every game, every week.
“NFL 直播”、“NFL 黄金时间”。每周掌握每场比赛所需的一切。
Unbelievable.
难以置信。
And now NFL Network is on the ESPN app.
现在 NFL Network 已登陆 ESPN 应用程序。
More football, more coverage, more ways to watch.
更多足球比赛、更多报道、更多观看方式。
Football's on all season long on ESPN and streaming on the ESPN app.
ESPN 提供整个赛季的足球赛事直播，并通过 ESPN 应用程序进行直播。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And now for my discussion about protocols for creativity with Rick Rubin.
现在我和里克·鲁宾讨论创造力的协议。
Rick Rubin, welcome back.
里克·鲁宾，欢迎回来。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Thank you, sir.
谢谢您，先生。
Happy to be here.
很高兴来到这里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We're going to answer, or rather you are going to answer, the questions of the listeners of our previous podcast episode.
我们将回答，或者更确切地说，你将回答我们上一集播客的听众的问题。
Before we do that, however, when we were out in the lobby, you mentioned that you have a breathing exercise, a coherence breathing exercise, that you thought might be useful for us to do now and perhaps for some of the listeners to join in.
然而，在我们这样做之前，当我们在大厅里时，你提到你有一个呼吸练习，一个连贯的呼吸练习，你认为这对我们现在做可能有用，也许对一些听众加入也有用。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah, let's do it, and then if you want to talk about it after, we can.
是的，我们就这样做吧，如果你想之后再讨论，我们可以。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sounds good.
听起来不错。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
The reason I started doing this is I have relatively low heart rate variability, and you want to have a higher one.
我开始这样做的原因是我的心率变异性相对较低，而你想要更高的心率变异性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
So I looked at all the things that can raise your heart rate variability, and I started doing this breathing technique specifically for heart rate variability, and it went up.
因此，我研究了所有可以提高心率变异性的因素，并开始专门针对心率变异性进行这种呼吸技巧，结果心率变异性有所上升。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Awesome.
太棒了。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
So it's-
所以这是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great
太棒了
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
...
...
tested.
已测试。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Let's do it together here, please.
请我们在这里一起做吧。
It'll say take a deep breath, and then you'll hear the sound of a...
它会说深呼吸，然后你会听到……的声音。
If you follow me for the first inhale and exhale, you'll know what sound means what.
如果你跟着我听一下第一次吸气和呼气，你就会知道声音意味着什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
And you do this eyes closed, typically?
你通常会闭着眼睛做这个吗？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I do it eyes closed, yes.
我闭着眼睛做，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, we'll close our eyes.
好吧，我们就闭上眼睛。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
Breathing exercise.
呼吸练习。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
That was five minutes.
那是五分钟。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I like that.
我喜欢这样。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Feels nice, doesn't it?
感觉很好，不是吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I notice I don't spontaneously breathe at that cadence.
我注意到我不会以这种节奏自发地呼吸。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I breathe quite a bit faster.
我呼吸加快了一些。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So especially on the exhale.
所以尤其是在呼气时。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So once I got into a rhythm of it, yeah, the mind just goes pseudo-random for me.
所以一旦我进入了它的节奏，是的，头脑对我来说就变得伪随机了。
What about for you?
对你来说呢？
Does your mind tend to go one place?
你的思绪是否倾向于去一处？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Now I count.
现在我数数。
So the reason I knew it was five minutes is because it's six breaths per minute, and I counted five.
所以我知道是五分钟的原因是因为每分钟有六次呼吸，我数了五次。
One, one, one, two, one, three, one, four, one, five, one, six, two, one.
一、一、一、二、一、三、一、四、一、五、一、六、二、一。
So I was occupied with a task.
所以我忙于一项任务。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How often do you do that?
你多久这样做一次？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
At least once, and sometimes twice a day.
至少一次，有时一天两次。
I aim for 10 minutes a day, but if I get to 20 minutes a day, it's noticeable in my heart rate variability results.
我的目标是每天 10 分钟，但如果每天达到 20 分钟，我的心率变异结果就会很明显。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you do the coherence breathing at particular times of day, or just whenever it occurs to you?
你是在一天中的特定时间进行连贯呼吸，还是只在你想到的时候进行连贯呼吸？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I think it depends on where I am and what else is going on in my life.
我认为这取决于我在哪里以及我生活中还发生了什么。
So I had a window of a very specific thing that I was doing.
所以我有一个关于我正在做的非常具体的事情的窗口。
I would do coherent breathing, and I would do squats, just air squats.
我会做连贯的呼吸，我会做深蹲，只是空中深蹲。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
In one location where I didn't have any other equipment.
在一个我没有任何其他设备的地方。
And And then I found a way, where I was doing treading water, which you got to experience with me.
然后我找到了一种方法，就是踩水，你可以和我一起体验。
I would tread water, and then after treading water, I would get out of the pool, sit in the sun, and do the coherent breathing.
我会踩水，踩完水后，我会走出泳池，坐在阳光下，进行连贯的呼吸。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Yeah, we should probably mention what the treading water was about because people will wonder.
是的，我们或许应该提到踩水的意义，因为人们会想知道。
Very briefly, I went and visited Rick overseas this summer, and we spent a fair amount of the daytime treading water while listening to podcasts from a speaker on the side of the pool, and it was awesome.
很简单，今年夏天我去海外拜访了里克，我们白天花了相当多的时间踩水，一边听泳池边扬声器的播客，这太棒了。
Time together as friends is awesome.
作为朋友在一起的时光真是太棒了。
Time in the sun is awesome.
阳光下的时光真是棒极了。
Learning from podcasts and listening and being entertained by podcasts is awesome.
从播客中学习、聆听播客并从中获得娱乐真是太棒了。
And then treading water is awesome.
然后踩水真是太棒了。
You're much better at treading water than I am.
你踩水的技术比我强多了。
I was fatiguing.
我累坏了。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
It's just as I said when we were doing it, it's like doing stairs.
正如我在做的时候说的，就像做楼梯一样。
If you practice doing stairs, it gets easier to do stairs.
如果你练习爬楼梯，爬楼梯就会变得更容易。
But nobody's good at doing-- Marathon runners can't run up the stairs.
但没有人擅长这样做——马拉松运动员不能跑上楼梯。
It's a particular thing.
这是一件特别的事情。
And treading water, if you just do it, even in the little bit of time that we were doing it every day, by the end of your stay, it was easier for you than when you started.
踩水，如果你只是这样做，即使是在我们每天都这样做的一小段时间里，在你住宿结束时，这对你来说比开始时更容易。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Definitely.
绝对是。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
You acclimate quickly.
你很快就适应了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I was able to adapt.
我能够适应。
I was impressed at your endurance in treading water early on.
你早期踩水的耐力给我留下了深刻的印象。
By the way, I've continued the treading water practice-
顺便说一句，我继续了踩水练习——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Oh, great
哦，太棒了
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because I'm fortunate to have a pool in my new place.
因为我很幸运在我的新地方有一个游泳池。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I listen to your podcast, truly.
我听你的播客，真的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"Tetragrammaton." Love it.
“四字母。”爱它。
Love it.
爱它。
I listen to a few other podcasts, and I've started listening to more episodes of the podcast that you introduced me to, which was-
我听了一些其他播客，并且我已经开始听你向我介绍的播客的更多剧集，这是-
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
"History of Rock Music in 500 Songs."
“500首歌曲中的摇滚音乐史”。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Andrew Hickey's podcast.
安德鲁希基的播客。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
It's an English podcast.
这是一个英语播客。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Great podcast.
很棒的播客。
Real in-depth information about music.
有关音乐的真正深入的信息。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah, that was such a great trip.
是的，那真是一次很棒的旅行。
Thanks for having me over there.
谢谢你邀请我去那里。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Thanks for coming.
感谢您的光临。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Loved-
爱过-
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
It was fun treading water.
踩水很有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was.
是的。
Loved the time with you and your family.
喜欢和你和你的家人在一起的时光。
So I'll invite myself again.
所以我会再次邀请自己。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
You're always welcome.
随时欢迎您。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
On the topic of meditation, one of the questions in this list of questions, we'll talk about the list itself in a moment, was about this anecdote that you've told me and you've mentioned a few other places, apparently, that you've once meditated all the way from, was it San Francisco to New York, or a Los Angeles to New York flight?
关于冥想这个话题，这个问题列表中的一个问题，我们稍后会讨论这个列表本身，是关于你告诉我的这个轶事，你还提到了其他几个地方，显然，你曾经一路冥想过，是从旧金山到纽约，还是从洛杉矶到纽约的航班？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
It was either LA to New York or New York to LA, I can't remember.
要么是洛杉矶到纽约，要么是纽约到洛杉矶，我不记得了。
And I may have done it more than once.
而且我可能已经做过不止一次了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The question specifically was, which meditation did you do?
具体问题是，你做了哪种冥想？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
TM.
TM。
TM was the first meditation I learned, transcendental meditation.
TM是我学到的第一个冥想，超然冥想。
Learned when I was 14.
14岁的时候学的。
It's pretty much a default setting for me.
这对我来说几乎是默认设置。
Now, sometimes it'll evolve from TM into breathing.
现在，有时它会从TM演变成呼吸。
I might start by doing breathing before the TM piece starts, and the breathing may just take the whole time.
我可能会在 TM 片段开始之前先做呼吸，而呼吸可能会占用整个时间。
Or it may turn from breathing into a gratitude practice, or a Metta practice, which is four phrases.
或者它可能从呼吸变成感恩练习，或慈心练习，这是四个短语。
May I be filled with loving kindness.
愿我充满慈爱。
May I be well.
愿我一切安好。
May I be peaceful and at ease.
愿我平和自在。
May I be happy.
愿我幸福。
And you repeat those phrases over and over.
然后你一遍又一遍地重复这些短语。
And it starts, may I, and then eventually, if you've done it for a year or so, you could start saying, may we, for your immediate family.
它开始了，我可以，然后最终，如果你已经这样做了一年左右，你可以开始说，我们可以为你的直系亲属。
And then as you build up the charge for your immediate family, in another year or so, you can spread it to your community.
然后，当您为直系亲属增加费用时，再过一年左右，您可以将其传播到您的社区。
And eventually, after maybe five years, you can do it for the planet.
最终，也许五年后，你就可以为地球做到这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So that's the Metta.
这就是慈心。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Metta.
慈心。
M-E-T-T-A.
M-E-T-T-A。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing.
太棒了。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Loving kindness practice.
慈心修行。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And are there any particular links maybe you could pass us later, and we could put in the captions-
有没有任何特定的链接，也许您可以稍后传给我们，我们可以添加标题-
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I'll find one
我会找到一个
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
maybe one that you've used.
也许是你用过的一个。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I learned it from Jack Kornfield, who's a Buddhist scholar and a brilliant teacher.
我是从杰克·康菲尔德那里学到的，他是一位佛教学者，也是一位出色的老师。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Terrific.
太棒了。
What do you think meditation has allowed you, afforded you, as well as what it's helped you avoid in terms of a daily practice?
您认为冥想在日常练习中给您带来了什么，为您提供了什么，以及帮助您避免了什么？
Or maybe in just how doing it once in a while has wicked out into areas of your life.
或者也许是因为偶尔这样做已经对你的生活产生了不良影响。
This is probably a long list of things, but if you were to pick maybe the top three where you go, "Yeah, when I'm meditating regularly, blank happens and blank doesn't happen.
这可能是一长串事情，但如果你要选出前三项，“是的，当我定期冥想时，会出现空白，也不会出现空白。
And when I'm not, those things disappear."
当我不在的时候，那些东西就会消失。”
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Because I've been doing it for such a long time, it's so part and parcel of who I am that I don't know who I would be without it.
因为我已经这样做了很长时间，它已经成为我的一部分，以至于我不知道如果没有它我会是谁。
That said, I don't always do it, but at this point, I don't have to always do it to be in this zone where I've been for almost 45 years, it's been a big part of my life.
也就是说，我并不总是这样做，但在这一点上，我不必总是这样做才能进入这个领域，我已经呆了近 45 年了，它已经成为我生活的重要组成部分。
So a great deal of the benefits are in me now.
所以现在我身上有很多好处。
When I practice, it gets amplified.
当我练习时，它会被放大。
But as Maharishi described it, every time you meditate, it's like making a deposit in a bank.
但正如玛赫西所描述的，每次冥想，就像在银行存款一样。
So it's always there.
所以它总是在那里。
Every time you do it, you're building a base.
每次你这样做，你都在建立一个基础。
And the goal of the practice is less about the practice.
而练习的目标并不在于练习。
It's about the practice is to change the way you are in the world.
这是关于改变你在世界上的方式的实践。
So it's a practice for life.
所以这是一生的修行。
Do you know what I'm saying?
你知道我在说什么吗？
The changes that come in the meditation are to help your reactions in the real world.
冥想中发生的变化是为了帮助你在现实世界中的反应。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In some ways, not to trivialize it, but it's like physical exercise.
在某些方面，不要小看它，但这就像体育锻炼。
During a good workout, your blood pressure is really elevated.
在良好的锻炼过程中，您的血压确实会升高。
You're secreting all sorts of inflammatory cytokines.
你正在分泌各种炎症细胞因子。
If we were to draw your blood mid-workout, you'd say, "This person is in trouble."
如果我们在锻炼期间抽你的血，你会说，“这个人有麻烦了。”
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But then all these wonderful adaptations occur that allow you to sleep better, better mood, walk upstairs easily, and on and on.
但随后所有这些奇妙的适应都会发生，让你睡得更好、心情更好、轻松上楼等等。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
It's funny about sleeping better.
睡得更好很有趣。
This morning, I was walking on the beach And had my headphones on, wired headphones, and I was listening to a podcast.
今天早上，我在海滩上散步，戴着耳机，有线耳机，正在听播客。
I can't remember what I was listening to, but I was listening to a podcast.
我不记得我在听什么，但我在听播客。
And someone flagged me and interrupted me, who I didn't know, and went over to talk to him, and he said, "I heard you talking about Steve Martin on a podcast." And, he told me a story about Steve Martin that he got to see him in 1979.
有人标记了我并打断了我，我不认识他，然后走过去和他说话，他说，“我听到你在播客上谈论史蒂夫·马丁。”他还给我讲了一个关于史蒂夫·马丁 (Steve Martin) 的故事，他是在 1979 年见到他的。
I would say this person was probably mid to late 60s.
我想说这个人可能是60年代中后期。
And he was wearing all black.
而且他穿着全黑的衣服。
He was wearing shoes on the beach, tennis shoes.
他在海滩上穿着鞋子，网球鞋。
He was wearing dark sunglasses and a hat.
他戴着深色太阳镜和帽子。
And he said, "Just want to talk about comedy and things" that he heard me say on a podcast, and we talked about it for a while.
他说，“只是想谈谈喜剧之类的事情”，这是他在播客上听到我说的，我们聊了一会儿。
And then he said something about he loves podcasts and he listens to them at night because he's got terrible insomnia and he can't sleep.
然后他说他喜欢播客，他晚上听播客，因为他失眠得很厉害，睡不着。
And I'm looking at a guy in the sun wearing sunglasses, and I say, "Well, the reason you can't sleep is because you're wearing sunglasses now." He said, "What are you talking about?" I said, "Well, the way the human body works is we react to the sun.
我看着阳光下一个戴着墨镜的人，我说：“好吧，你睡不着的原因是因为你现在戴着墨镜。”他说：“你在说什么？”我说：“嗯，人体的运作方式是我们对阳光的反应。
The sun is what tells us we're awake, and then at night when it's dark, that's what tells us to go to sleep.
太阳告诉我们我们醒了，然后在晚上天黑的时候，太阳告诉我们去睡觉。
So you're mixing the signals to your body by wearing the sunglasses." And he said, "Well, I'm a dermatologist and, I've been a...
所以你通过戴太阳镜来混合向你的身体发出的信号。”他说：“嗯，我是一名皮肤科医生，而且我一直是......
" He said he was a dermatologist for the last 40 years.
“他说过去 40 年他一直是皮肤科医生。
"And my whole practice is about getting people to get out of the sun." And, we started talking about it.
“我的整个实践就是让人们远离阳光。”而且，我们开始谈论它。
And, he was all covered up.
而且，他全身都被遮住了。
I was wearing my board shorts and nothing else.
我只穿着短裤，没有穿其他衣服。
And I said, "Well, I'm in the sun hours every day." And he's like, "Aren't you worried about cancer?" And I said, "No, I feel pretty healthy.
我说：“好吧，我每天都在阳光下。”他说：“你不担心癌症吗？”我说：“不，我感觉很健康。
I feel okay." And then he said, "Let me see your back." And I turned around, and he looked at my back, and he's like, "You have perfect skin." He's like, "They should study you in an institute." I said, "This is what normal healthy skin looks like if you expose it to the sun." And he said, "So you're saying everything I've been teaching in my medical practice for the last 40 years was wrong?" I said, "Yes.
我感觉还好。”然后他说：“让我看看你的背影。”我转过身来，他看着我的背影，说道：“你的皮肤很完美。”他说，“他们应该在研究所里研究你。”我说：“这就是正常健康皮肤暴露在阳光下的样子。”他说：“所以你是说我过去 40 年在医学实践中所教授的一切都是错的？”我说：“是的。
Everything." It was funny.
一切。”这很有趣。
Funny conversation.
有趣的谈话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, it's interesting.
是的，这很有趣。
We could go down a deep rabbit hole with this, but listeners of this podcast will know that I'm very much a proponent of getting those sunlight signals to the eyes at least once a day in the morning, but also in the evening.
我们可能会陷入一个很深的兔子洞，但这个播客的听众会知道，我非常支持每天早上至少一次将这些阳光信号发送到眼睛，而且在晚上也是如此。
I'll just share with you.
我就和你分享一下。
Now, I learned from a guest whose episode we haven't aired yet, that what is so special about that morning and evening sunlight are the contrasts between blues and oranges, blues and reds, blues and pinks, that we can't always see if there's cloud cover, but they come through.
现在，我从一位我们尚未播出的嘉宾那里了解到，早晨和傍晚的阳光的特别之处在于蓝色和橙色、蓝色和红色、蓝色和粉红色之间的对比，我们不能总是看到是否有云层，但它们会透过。
And it's the mathematical difference in their presence, the subtraction of a lot of blue and then next to it a lot of orange, or a lot of blue and then next to it a lot of pink, that triggers the body's understanding that this is morning and evening, and that night is coming in the evening and that it's time to be awake in the morning and throughout the day.
正是它们存在的数学差异，减去了很多蓝色，然后减去了很多橙色，或者减去了很多蓝色，然后减去了很多粉红色，触发了身体的理解，即现在是早晨和晚上，晚上即将到来，是时候在早上和全天醒来了。
In the middle of the day when the sun is out and it's overhead, it looks like white light.
中午，太阳出来时，它在头顶上，看起来像白光。
And white light includes the blues and the oranges and the pinks and the reds, but they subtract to zero because they're all mixed together.
白光包括蓝色、橙色、粉色和红色，但它们会减为零，因为它们都混合在一起。
That's why it looks just blue and white.
这就是为什么它看起来只是蓝色和白色。
And so while bright light is great throughout the day, it's those morning signals.
因此，虽然明亮的光线在一天中都很棒，但这是早晨的信号。
Now, I think the dermatology community is starting to come online with the idea that low solar angle sunlight early and later in the day, sun rising and sun setting.
现在，我认为皮肤病学界开始流行这样的想法：在一天的早些时候和晚些时候，太阳升起和日落时，低太阳角阳光。
And I say that because people always go, "Oh, do you have to see it cross the horizon?" That would be ideal, but rising and setting do not create the kind of skin damage or eye damage that they've been so concerned about.
我这么说是因为人们总是会问，“哦，你一定要看到它越过地平线吗？”这将是理想的情况，但上升和下降不会造成他们一直担心的皮肤损伤或眼睛损伤。
And I think the next step for the field of dermatology is going to be to start communicating with the neuroscientists and the circadian biologists and really learning that.
我认为皮肤病学领域的下一步将是开始与神经科学家和昼夜节律生物学家进行交流并真正学习这一点。
So thanks for bridging that gap on the beach this morning.
感谢您今天早上在海滩上弥补了这一差距。
I do think that's how it starts, and then it wicks out.
我确实认为事情就是这样开始的，然后就消失了。
Headphones.
耳机。
So, I made the choice a few years ago to stop using the Bluetooth headphones based on my personal experience, which was I kept getting these cysts behind my ears, which I was told were swellings of lymph.
因此，几年前，根据我的个人经验，我决定停止使用蓝牙耳机，因为我的耳后总是长出这些囊肿，我被告知这是淋巴肿胀。
They would actually drain lymph if they got big enough.
如果它们足够大，它们实际上会排出淋巴液。
It was really gross and kind of troubling.
这真的很恶心而且有点令人不安。
I stopped using them.
我停止使用它们。
I didn't get them.
我没有得到它们。
I started using them again.
我又开始使用它们。
I started getting those lymph things.
我开始得到那些淋巴东西。
And there was some significant heat effects as well.
并且还存在一些显着的热效应。
And I've interviewed a couple people, including a neurosurgeon on the podcast, about the level of EMFs that come from them, and they were not concerned.
我采访了几个人，包括播客上的一位神经外科医生，询问他们产生的电磁场水平，但他们并不担心。
Others I've spoken to are concerned.
与我交谈过的其他人也对此表示担忧。
I'm going to try and balance out the conversation over time.
随着时间的推移，我将尝试平衡对话。
But my feeling was, look, if there's any concern whatsoever, why would I use them?
但我的感觉是，看，如果有任何担忧，我为什么要使用它们？
And so I use the ones with wires.
所以我用的是带电线的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But use the ones with wires that are even one step further away from WiFi transmitters.
但请使用距离 WiFi 发射器更远一步的电线。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
There are ones with air tubes that I use, depending on what's going on, and those have no electrical...
我使用的有些带有空气管，具体取决于发生的情况，而那些没有电......
There's no electric near your head.
你的头附近没有电。
It's just an air tube where the sound is traveling.
它只是一个空气管，声音在其中传播。
This actual sound is traveling in the tubes to your ears.
这种实际的声音通过管道传播到您的耳朵。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I definitely sleep better with the phone out of the bedroom.
把手机放在卧室外面我肯定睡得更好。
Some people are now turning off their WiFi at night.
现在有些人会在晚上关闭 WiFi。
I think you and I are both really aligned in the sense that we've seen enough things come and go in the health space, like disparaging remarks about lifting weights like that's just for bodybuilders and now everybody knows.
我认为你和我确实是一致的，因为我们已经看到健康领域发生了足够多的事情，比如关于举重的贬低言论，就像那只是健美运动员的专利，现在每个人都知道了。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah, muscle bound.
是的，肌肉发达。
You become muscle bound.
你变得肌肉束缚。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Now men and women, elderly and young, are encouraged to do resistance training.
现在，男性和女性、老年人和年轻人都被鼓励进行阻力训练。
Yoga used to be cast in this kind of magic carpet realm.
瑜伽曾经就是在这种魔毯境界中铸造的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Breathwork.
呼吸。
All this stuff has become, over time, mainstream, but it's taken a very long time and the road has been choppy and sometimes, in my opinion, really unfair To the practices and their value.
随着时间的推移，所有这些东西已经成为主流，但这花了很长时间，而且道路崎岖不平，在我看来，有时对这些做法及其价值来说确实不公平。
These are zero-cost practices in many cases that can really help people.
在许多情况下，这些都是零成本的做法，可以真正帮助人们。
And so when I look at something like sunscreen or Bluetooth headphones, or we're talking about some of these things, I wish I had a portal into the future where we look back and go like, "Of course." So what are your thoughts on just kind of health and wellness as you've observed it in the last 20, 30 years?
因此，当我看到防晒霜或蓝牙耳机之类的东西，或者我们正在谈论其中一些东西时，我希望我有一个通向未来的门户，让我们回顾过去，然后说：“当然。”那么，根据您在过去 20、30 年中观察到的健康状况，您对健康有何看法？
You've been in this for a while.
你已经从事这个行业有一段时间了。
You've paid attention to mindfulness and mind-body stuff.
你已经关注了正念和身心的事情。
What are your thoughts?
你有什么想法？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I try to live in as natural way as possible.
我尝试尽可能以自然的方式生活。
I try to eat as few processed foods as possible, try to eat grass-fed animals.
我尽量少吃加工食品，尝试吃草饲动物。
And I use hardly any products of any kind, that aren't just something that grows or lives on the planet.
我几乎不使用任何种类的产品，这些产品不仅仅是在地球上生长或生活的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There were a couple questions about this, so I'll ask now.
对此有几个问题，所以我现在就问。
You lost a tremendous amount of weight.
你体重减轻了很多。
You look great, by the way.
顺便说一句，你看起来很棒。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You look super fit.
你看起来超级健康。
Every time I see you, you're in better and better shape.
每次见到你，你的状态都越来越好。
And-
还有——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
That's your perception.
这就是你的看法。
It's not, in fact, the case, but-
事实上，情况并非如此，但是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, you're-
嗯，你是——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I'll accept it.
我会接受的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't know.
我不知道。
When I see you each time, you're extremely mobile.
每次我见到你时，你都非常活跃。
You're sleeping well.
你睡得很好。
You have a robust life, all the marks of health and vitality.
你的生命充满活力，充满健康和活力。
So I've heard you mention before that you lost a significant amount of weight.
所以我之前听你提到你体重减轻了很多。
How much weight, and how did you do it?
多少重量，你是怎么做到的？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
135 pounds through a high-protein, low-calorie, low-carb diet.
通过高蛋白、低热量、低碳水化合物饮食减重 135 磅。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that went against the convention at the time?
这违反了当时的惯例吗？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Well, the person who suggested it was someone at UCLA.
嗯，提出这个建议的人是加州大学洛杉矶分校的某个人。
So it was a mainstream doctor who helped me with my weight loss.
所以是一位主流医生帮助我减肥。
I had been a vegan at that time, which was not mainstream then, and it was very unhealthy, but I did that for 20 some odd years because I believed in the theory of it, but it proved not to be healthy for me.
我当时吃纯素，当时还不是主流，而且非常不健康，但我坚持了二十几年，因为我相信它的理论，但事实证明它对我来说并不健康。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you think that different diets likely work for different people?
您认为不同的饮食可能适合不同的人吗？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So that not everyone necessarily should do what you did?
那么并不是每个人都应该像你那样做？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
No, but I think most people would probably benefit from healthy red meat.
不，但我认为大多数人可能会受益于健康的红肉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I'm saying that only because it's so vilified in our culture.
我这么说只是因为它在我们的文化中受到如此严重的诽谤。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah, I agree.
是的，我同意。
And I think the healthy piece is key there, too, the non-factory farmed animals.
我认为健康的部分也是关键，非工厂养殖的动物。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which fortunately, reasonably cost sources of that are becoming more available.
幸运的是，成本合理的来源变得越来越容易获得。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I'm going to start pulling from the list of questions.
好吧，我将开始从问题列表中提取问题。
By the way, folks, there were more than 1,000 questions in just the one-third printout that I did.
顺便说一句，各位，我打印出来的三分之一的内容就包含了 1000 多个问题。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
It's an intimidating stack in front of you.
这是一个令人生畏的堆栈在你面前。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's the most notes I've ever put in front of me during a guest discussion here on the podcast, and we are not going to ask you every question, but I've organized them in some sense of a coherent order.
这是我在播客客座讨论期间放在我面前的最多的笔记，我们不会问你每个问题，但我以某种连贯的顺序组织了它们。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Did you organize them, or did AI organize them?
是你组织的，还是人工智能组织的？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I organized them, but that's a great opportunity to ask you one of the questions that came up several times, which was, what are your thoughts on AI and its ability to shape how music is made, how visual arts are made?
我组织了它们，但这是一个很好的机会，可以问你多次出现的问题之一，那就是，你对人工智能及其塑造音乐制作方式、视觉艺术制作方式的能力有何看法？
Are you one of these, scared of AI, or do you embrace new technology?
您是其中之一，害怕人工智能，还是拥抱新技术？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I don't know enough about it yet to talk about it.
我对此了解还不够，还不能谈论它。
What I will say is what I find interesting about art is the point of view of the person making it, and I don't know that AI has a point of view of its own.
我要说的是，我觉得艺术有趣的是创作者的观点，而我不知道人工智能有自己的观点。
So, and I don't know how interesting it would be, AI's point of view.
所以，我不知道人工智能的观点会有多有趣。
But I like people's points of view, and what makes an artist a great artist to me is something about their point of view does something to me.
但我喜欢人们的观点，对我来说，艺术家之所以成为伟大的艺术家，是因为他们的观点对我有影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Childhood.
童年。
A question for Rick Rubin was, what activities did you find most enjoyable and easy to get lost in as a child?
瑞克·鲁宾 (Rick Rubin) 面临的一个问题是，您小时候觉得哪些活动最有趣且最容易迷失？
I love this question.
我喜欢这个问题。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For you, in particular.
特别是对你来说。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Reading was a big part of my life.
阅读是我生活的重要组成部分。
Listening to music was a big part of my life.
听音乐是我生活的重要组成部分。
Playing guitar along with music.
随着音乐弹奏吉他。
Can't really play, but the idea of playing along.
确实不能玩，但有玩的想法。
So it didn't have to actually be good enough to play along because I didn't have that skill set, but I liked the experience of doing my best to play along with something I was listening to.
所以它实际上并不需要足够好才能一起演奏，因为我没有那种技能，但我喜欢尽我最大的努力和我正在听的东西一起演奏的经历。
And, also magic.
而且，还有魔法。
Learning, like shuffling cards in front of a mirror and coin tricks and sleight of hand was just interesting to me.
学习，比如在镜子前洗牌、硬币戏法和花招，对我来说都很有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you still do magic?
你还在施魔法吗？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I don't.
我不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
At the time that music took over my life, I had to choose between the two because both of them were full-time life pursuits.
当音乐占据我的生活时，我必须在两者之间做出选择，因为它们都是全职的生活追求。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I went and saw a mentalist in New York this summer with my sister.
今年夏天我和姐姐一起去纽约见了一位心理医生。
Asi Wind is his name.
阿西风是他的名字。
A-S-I, first name.
A-S-I，名字。
Last name, Wind.
姓，风。
Every time I see a mentalist, and especially when I see Asi, I've seen him twice, it blows my mind.
每次我看到一个心灵治疗师，特别是当我看到阿西时，我已经见过他两次了，这让我大吃一惊。
What are your thoughts on mentalists as-
你对心灵主义者有什么看法——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
It's my favorite form of magic.
这是我最喜欢的魔术形式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
It's the most interesting because it doesn't rely on props.
这是最有趣的，因为它不依赖道具。
It feels like pure magic.
感觉就像纯粹的魔法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
If you have a box and you pull something out of the box, there's probably something tricky about the box.
如果你有一个盒子，并且你从盒子里拿出一些东西，那么盒子里可能有一些棘手的东西。
But when someone can look at you and tell you what you're thinking, it's just wild.
但当有人可以看着你并告诉你你在想什么时，那就太疯狂了。
It's really wild.
真的很狂野。
So I love that.
所以我喜欢这样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
After Asi did his act, when we pseudo-returned to reality, because it really does change the way you look at things after that For quite a while, maybe forever.
在阿西做了他的事之后，当我们伪回到现实时，因为它确实改变了你看待事物的方式，很长一段时间，也许永远。
I asked him if he was willing to share maybe just one nugget of insight into how he does what he does.
我问他是否愿意分享关于他如何做他所做的事情的一点点见解。
And of course, I wasn't expecting he was going to give away the whole thing.
当然，我没想到他会放弃整个事情。
And he said, "A lot of it has to do with forming and erasing memories in people quickly." Which sounds very kind of dark and mysterious.
他说：“这很大程度上与人们快速形成和消除记忆有关。”这听起来非常黑暗和神秘。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
That's really interesting.
这真的很有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, that maybe it's possible to erase memories-
是的，也许可以抹去记忆——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Wow
哇
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in people.
在人中。
Maybe what we thought we saw, we really didn't see or hear.
也许我们以为自己看到了，但实际上我们没有看到或听到。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I dig that.
所以我很喜欢这个。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Great description.
很棒的描述。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I'm going to bring him out here, by the way.
顺便说一句，我要带他到这里来。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So we should all get together.
所以我们都应该聚在一起。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I would love to.
我很乐意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I would love to see him.
我很想见他。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I want to get him on the podcast.
我想让他加入播客。
Okay, a full 10% of the questions for you were around writer's blocks, sticking points, this kind of thing.
好吧，整整 10% 的问题都与写作障碍、症结点等有关。
Like feeling stuck in the creative process.
就像陷入创作过程中的感觉一样。
Now, people didn't specify whether or not they were stuck at the beginning, the middle, or the end, but based on my read of all of these questions, I got the sense that people were feeling like there's something in them that they want access to, they want to create, but they don't know how to get past that initial stage, as opposed to somebody who's 90% done and they just can't finish the last 10%.
现在，人们没有具体说明他们是否被困在开头、中间或结尾，但根据我对所有这些问题的阅读，我感觉到人们感觉他们内心有一些东西他们想要访问，他们想要创造，但他们不知道如何度过这个初始阶段，而不是那些已经完成了 90% 的人却无法完成最后 10% 的人。
What are your thoughts about these kinds of blocks and how to overcome them?
您对这些障碍有何看法以及如何克服它们？
Any experience you've had with them yourself and perhaps with working with other artists?
您自己有过与他们合作的经历吗？也许还有与其他艺术家合作的经历？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
The first thought is to go past the idea of the block and think about what's the cause of the block.
第一个想法是超越阻塞的想法并思考阻塞的原因是什么。
And the block is usually something like, it's either a personal, I'm not good enough.
这种障碍通常是这样的，要么是个人原因，要么是我不够好。
It can be a confidence issue.
这可能是一个信心问题。
I don't have anything to say.
我没什么可说的。
Or it could be thinking about someone else.
或者它可能正在考虑别人。
Nobody's going to like what I make.
没有人会喜欢我做的东西。
Do you know what I'm saying?
你知道我在说什么吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
So it's either a self-judgment or fear of outside judgment.
所以这要么是自我判断，要么是对外界判断的恐惧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
So if you're making something with the freedom of, this is something I'm making for myself for now.
因此，如果你正在自由地制作一些东西，那么这就是我现在为自己制作的东西。
That's all it is.
仅此而已。
It's a diary entry.
这是一篇日记。
Everything I make is a diary entry.
我所做的一切都是日记。
The beauty of a diary entry is, I can write my diary entry, and you can't tell me my diary entry wasn't good enough, or that's not what I experienced.
日记的美妙之处在于，我可以写我的日记，你不能告诉我我的日记不够好，或者那不是我经历的。
Of course, it's what I experienced.
当然，这是我经历过的。
I'm writing a personal diary for myself.
我正在为自己写一本私人日记。
No one else can judge it.
没有人可以评判它。
It is my experience of my life.
这是我的人生经历。
Everything we make can be that.
我们所做的一切都可以是这样。
Can be a personal reflection of who we are in that moment of time.
可以是我们在那一刻的个人反映。
It doesn't have to be the greatest you could ever do.
它不一定是你能做的最伟大的事情。
It doesn't have to have any expectation that it's going to change the world.
它不必抱有任何改变世界的期望。
It doesn't have to be, this has to sell a certain number of copies for any reason.
不一定是这样，无论出于什么原因，这都必须卖出一定数量的副本。
It doesn't have any of those things.
它没有任何这些东西。
All it is is, I'm making this thing.
就是这样，我正在做这个东西。
I'm making this thing for me, and I want to do it to the best of my ability, to where I feel good about it, and where it's honest.
我正在为自己做这件事，我想尽我所能，做到让我感觉良好、诚实的程度。
It's honest of where I'm at.
这是诚实的我所在的位置。
And if you're living in this world of just being honest to where you're at, there's nothing blocking that.
如果你生活在这个只要诚实地面对自己所处位置的世界里，就没有什么可以阻止这一点。
Do you know what I'm saying?
你知道我在说什么吗？
There are no blocks.
没有任何障碍。
The blocks are all based on dealing with a different force or a different perception that is made up.
这些块都是基于处理不同的力量或不同的感知而构成的。
You make up this story, and you're living the story.
你编造了这个故事，并且你正在经历这个故事。
I'm in this block because I just can't do it.
我陷入困境是因为我做不到。
The reason you can't do it is because you're afraid someone else is not going to like it.
你做不到的原因是你害怕别人不喜欢它。
There are no blocks.
没有任何障碍。
There's infinite amount of information out there to work with, because it also doesn't stem from us.
有无限量的信息可供使用，因为它也不是来自我们。
So we're vehicles for this information, and it's coming through us all the time.
所以我们是这些信息的载体，它一直通过我们传递。
So if you don't have an idea when you're sitting at your desk, if you go for a walk, chances are you'll see something that'll spark something in you as a seed to take off from.
因此，如果你坐在办公桌前没有任何想法，那么如果你去散步，你很可能会看到一些东西，这些东西会激发你内心的某些东西，作为一颗起飞的种子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That makes a lot of sense.
这很有意义。
And I had a thought while you were saying that one of the challenges that I have in completing work and getting into a good work groove is that, especially nowadays because of phones and so easy to communicate with other people, it's not that they interrupt me.
当你说我在完成工作并进入良好的工作状态时遇到的挑战之一是，特别是现在，因为电话和与其他人沟通如此容易，并不是他们打扰了我。
And this happened the other day.
这件事发生在前几天。
I set up my new office really nicely.
我把我的新办公室布置得非常好。
I'm living in a very quiet place now.
我现在住在一个非常安静的地方。
It's almost completely silent unless I'm playing music.
除非我在播放音乐，否则几乎完全安静。
It's really interesting.
这真的很有趣。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
That's great.
太好了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or the coyotes sometimes come around and start doing their thing at night.
或者土狼有时会在晚上出现并开始做它们的事情。
But completely silent, and I realized I was having a hard time getting into a work groove, and I realized that I felt compelled to continue to reach out to people.
但我完全沉默了，我意识到我很难进入工作状态，我意识到我觉得有必要继续与人们接触。
And then I realized, as you just provided your answer to the last question, that there's probably something in me that has a bit of a fear of separation or abandonment from people, based on my own experience.
然后我意识到，当你刚刚提供了最后一个问题的答案时，根据我自己的经验，我身上可能有一点害怕与人分离或遗弃。
And I feel very well supported by my friends and coworkers these days.
这些天我感觉得到了朋友和同事的大力支持。
Very well supported.
很好的支持。
I'm in a kind of pinch me place around that.
我正处于一种让我陷入困境的境地。
But I realize now that what's happening in my mind is, it's not a challenge of getting into the work.
但我现在意识到，我脑海中发生的事情是，这并不是进入工作的挑战。
It's a fear that if I spend a couple of hours really in that tight tunnel of creation, that There might not be anyone there when I exit it, which is a crazy thought.
我担心，如果我真的在那条狭窄的创造隧道里待了几个小时，当我退出它时，那里可能没有人了，这是一个疯狂的想法。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
That's a crazy thought.
这是一个疯狂的想法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But that's the anxiety.
但这就是焦虑。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I only realize that now.
我现在才意识到这一点。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So thank you.
所以谢谢你。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Great.
太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I trust that you guys will be there when I exit the tunnel.
我相信当我离开隧道时你们会在那里。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
We'll be there.
我们会在那里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And when there's a deadline, I have no choice but to jump into that tunnel.
当截止日期到来时，我别无选择，只能跳进那条隧道。
That's actually what helps.
这实际上是有帮助的。
Deadlines really help me.
截止日期确实对我有帮助。
Do deadlines help you?
截止日期对你有帮助吗？
Do you like deadlines?
你喜欢截止日期吗？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Deadlines don't help me at the beginning of a process.
在流程开始时，截止日期对我没有帮助。
They can help at the end.
他们可以在最后提供帮助。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Once the code's been cracked.
一旦密码被破解。
Usually when I start something, I have no idea what it's going to be.
通常当我开始做某事时，我不知道它会是什么。
So it's a very open process in the beginning.
所以一开始这是一个非常开放的过程。
And if there's any sense of required timing, that would undermine the freedom needed for it to be all that it could be.
如果有任何需要时间安排的感觉，那就会破坏它所需要的自由。
But once the code's cracked and you know what it is, and it's all there, and you're dealing with the fine points, then it can be really helpful to have a deadline.
但是，一旦代码被破解，你知道它是什么，一切都在那里，并且你正在处理细节，那么设定最后期限就会非常有帮助。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
There is so much NFL on ESPN right now.
ESPN 上现在有很多 NFL 节目。
Monday Night Football, plus pre-game and post-game.
周一橄榄球之夜，以及赛前和赛后。
NFL Live, NFL Prime Time.
NFL 直播，NFL 黄金时间。
Everything you need to stay on top of every game, every week.
每周掌握每场比赛所需的一切。
Unbelievable.
难以置信。
And now NFL Network is on the ESPN app.
现在 NFL Network 已登陆 ESPN 应用程序。
More football, more coverage, more ways to watch.
更多足球比赛、更多报道、更多观看方式。
Football's on all season long on ESPN and streaming on the ESPN app.
ESPN 提供整个赛季的足球赛事直播，并通过 ESPN 应用程序进行直播。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A number of questions were sort of comments about what people believe your process is.
许多问题都是关于人们认为你的流程是什么的评论。
And one of the repeating themes there, which I thought was interesting, was it seems that Rick Rubin is comfortable with uncertainty and the unknown.
我认为很有趣的重复主题之一是，里克·鲁宾似乎对不确定性和未知感到满意。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
That is true.
确实如此。
Yes, I am comfortable with it because I accept that's the way things are.
是的，我对此感到满意，因为我接受事情就是这样。
That said, when I start a new project, I always have anxiety because I'm uncertain of what's going to happen, and I want it to be good.
也就是说，当我开始一个新项目时，我总是会感到焦虑，因为我不确定会发生什么，但我希望它是好的。
Now, I know it won't be done until I feel good about it.
现在，我知道除非我感觉良好，否则不会完成这件事。
So in that way, there's no real pressure, but I do still feel this anxiety of, "I wonder what's going to happen today.
所以这样一来，就没有真正的压力了，但我仍然感到焦虑，“我想知道今天会发生什么。
I hope it's good."
我希望一切都好。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When you've worked with musical artists, let's say, how important is it to you to know what challenges, maybe even what successes, but certainly what challenges they happen to be going through at that period in time?
比方说，当您与音乐艺术家合作时，了解哪些挑战，甚至可能取得哪些成功，以及他们在那个时期遇到的挑战对您来说有多重要？
Put differently, do you end finding yourself playing therapist and guide and psychological/emotional mentor to artists you work with during the creative process, or is that separate?
换句话说，你最终会发现自己在创作过程中扮演着治疗师、指导者和心理/情感导师的角色，还是与你一起工作的艺术家的角色？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
If they're going through something that's interfering with the work, anything that gets in the way of the work is something worth discussing.
如果他们正在经历一些干扰工作的事情，那么任何妨碍工作的事情都值得讨论。
Our focus there together is to get the work done.
我们共同的重点是完成工作。
Sometimes it ends up being more therapeutic to allow that to happen.
有时，让这种情况发生会更有治疗作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One of the questions that really stood out to me in this vast list of questions, involved a quote from your last discussion on this podcast, our last discussion on this podcast.
在这个庞大的问题列表中，对我来说真正突出的问题之一是引用您在这个播客上的最后一次讨论，也是我们在这个播客上的最后一次讨论。
So I'm going to read a little bit of it because it's fairly long.
所以我要读一点，因为它相当长。
But I found this to be a really important question that we should get into in a bit more depth.
但我发现这是一个非常重要的问题，我们应该更深入地探讨。
Somebody, I don't know who said, "If you happen to talk to Rick," I happen to be talking to you, "Ask him this for me.
有人，我不知道是谁说的，“如果你碰巧和里克说话，”我碰巧也在和你说话，“帮我问他这个。
In his book, in the section on self-doubt, Rick said, quote, 'One of the reasons so many great artists die of overdoses early in their lives is because they use drugs to numb a very painful existence.
里克在他的书中关于自我怀疑的部分中说道，“许多伟大的艺术家在生命早期死于服药过量的原因之一是因为他们使用毒品来麻痹非常痛苦的生活。
The reason it is painful is the reason they became an artist in the first place, their incredible sensitivity.
痛苦的原因在于他们成为艺术家的首要原因，就是他们令人难以置信的敏感度。
If you see tremendous beauty or tremendous pain where other people see little or nothing at all, you're confronted with big feelings all the time.
如果你看到了别人很少看到或根本看不到的巨大的美丽或巨大的痛苦，那么你就会一直面临着巨大的感受。
These emotions can be confusing and overwhelming.'" Excuse me.
这些情绪可能会令人困惑和难以承受。’”对不起。
So this goes on for some pages.
因此，某些页面会出现这种情况。
And then this person says, and I think they're speaking for many people when they said, "This resonated with me personally, and I wonder whether or not this is something that maybe you've experienced yourself or that you just notice about artists in similar situations." And what sort of advice do you give the artists you work with in order to embrace those painful tones within them and transmute them into great work?
然后这个人说，我认为他们说的是很多人的心声，“这引起了我个人的共鸣，我想知道这是否是你自己经历过的事情，或者你只是注意到处于类似情况的艺术家。”为了拥抱他们内心痛苦的基调并将其转化为伟大的作品，你会给与你合作的艺术家什么样的建议？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I've definitely felt them myself.
我自己确实感受到了它们。
I'm unusually sensitive in the world.
我对这个世界异常敏感。
I'm wearing red glasses in here for a reason.
我在这里戴着红色眼镜是有原因的。
I live a very protected, monk-like life because stimulation gets in the way of my ability to be where I want to be.
我过着一种非常受保护的、僧侣般的生活，因为刺激阻碍了我到达我想去的地方的能力。
So I tend to stay away from things.
所以我倾向于远离事物。
And it seems to be the case with many artists, a desire for nurturing their internal life.
这似乎是许多艺术家的情况，渴望滋养他们的内心生活。
And if the goal is to nurture our internal life, it invariably leads to sacrifices.
如果目标是培育我们的内在生活，那必然会导致牺牲。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Did you spend a lot of time alone as a kid?
你小时候是否度过了很多独处的时间？
I'm asking this question.
我正在问这个问题。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I did.
我做到了。
Yeah.
是的。
I was an only child and I spent most of my time alone.
我是独生子，大部分时间都是一个人度过的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When you talk about controlling this amount and type of stimulation in your life to protect that inner landscape, does that pertain to certain personality types, even voice types?
当您谈到控制生活中刺激的数量和类型以保护内心景观时，这是否与某些人格类型，甚至声音类型有关？
I've found at various times in my life, I love people, but there are certain voices that just grate on me, and I can't be around them.
我在生命中的不同时期发现，我爱人们，但有些声音只是让我恼火，而我无法和他们在一起。
I just can't be around them.
我就是不能在他们身边。
They drive me-- It's like ...
他们开车送我——就像……
a cacophony inside.
里面有刺耳的声音。
I just feel like I'm being asked to drink something that tastes awful.
我只是觉得我被要求喝一些味道很糟糕的东西。
Does that resonate?
这引起共鸣吗？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I try to curate the people around me to be people I want to have around me.
我努力让我周围的人成为我想要的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Whatever that is.
不管那是什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Whatever that is.
不管那是什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, you said you protect the inner landscape, but certainly you're not averse to high-intensity stimulation.
嗯，你说你保护内心的风景，但你当然不反对高强度的刺激。
Last night we went to the AEW, and by the way, thank you for taking me.
昨晚我们去了 AEW，顺便说一句，谢谢你带我去。
That was such an incredible experience.
那真是一次令人难以置信的经历。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
It was really fun.
真的很有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was really fun.
真的很有趣。
It reminded me of early punk rock shows, some of my first punk rock shows where I went and just was like, "Oh my gosh, this is exciting and scary, and I love it."
它让我想起了早期的朋克摇滚表演，我第一次去的一些朋克摇滚表演就像是，“天哪，这令人兴奋又可怕，我喜欢它。”
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it felt loving, too.
这也让人感到充满爱意。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is also the community of punk rock that I observed and have been blessed to be a part of.
这也是我观察到并有幸成为其中一部分的朋克摇滚社区。
It's like, yeah, there's aggression, but there's also love, and then there's romance, and then there's also betrayal, and there's all the elements.
就像，是的，有侵略，但也有爱，然后有浪漫，然后还有背叛，还有所有的元素。
But there's still a sense of like, everyone wants to be here, and that there's a sense of goodness behind it all.
但仍然有一种感觉，每个人都想来这里，而且这一切背后都有一种美好的感觉。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Even though some of it was bloody and violent.
尽管其中有一些是血腥和暴力的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So for you, what does wrestling allow you to feel in those high-intensity environments?
那么对你来说，摔跤让你在那些高强度的环境中感受到什么？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
It completely relaxes me because there are no stakes.
这让我完全放松，因为没有赌注。
You know, everyone's working together in the show to protect each other.
要知道，剧中大家都在齐心协力，互相保护。
No one's trying to hurt anybody, regardless of what the storyline is.
无论故事情节如何，没有人试图伤害任何人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
It's like a ballet, where there's a fight in the ballet.
就像芭蕾舞，芭蕾舞中有打斗。
There's no actual aggression of people towards each other.
人们之间并没有真正的攻击性。
It's just the opposite.
事实恰恰相反。
But you get to experience this wildly dynamic, exciting, surreal theater piece, where people are doing these gymnastic and acrobatic things that are truly death-defying.
但你可以体验这部充满活力、令人兴奋、超现实的戏剧作品，人们正在做这些真正挑战死亡的体操和杂技动作。
And it's fun, and the storylines absorb you in a way where you never know what's true and what's not.
这很有趣，故事情节让你着迷，你永远不知道什么是真的，什么是假的。
We know wrestling's fake, we're told wrestling's fake.
我们知道摔跤是假的，我们被告知摔跤是假的。
But there's something legitimate about it that seems, to me, more legitimate than anything else.
但在我看来，它有一些合理的东西，比其他任何东西都更合理。
The most legitimate.
最合法的。
Because it's the closest to what the world's actually like.
因为它最接近真实的世界。
People don't always tell you what they really think.
人们并不总是告诉你他们的真实想法。
And when someone tells you a story, it might not really be the true story.
当有人告诉你一个故事时，它可能不是真正的故事。
They may think they're telling you the real story, and that might not be the real story.
他们可能认为他们正在告诉你真实的故事，但这可能不是真实的故事。
We don't know.
我们不知道。
We know so little.
我们知道的太少了。
We experience something, and then we make up a story to understand it ourselves.
我们经历一些事情，然后编造一个故事来自己理解它。
And then forevermore, when we tell that story, it was our version of an experience.
然后永远，当我们讲述这个故事时，这就是我们的经历版本。
But we don't know that's what happened.
但我们不知道到底发生了什么。
That was our take on it.
这就是我们的看法。
Wrestling is like, that's what the real world is like.
摔跤就像，这就是现实世界的样子。
Because when you watch wrestling, you never know what's true.
因为当你观看摔跤时，你永远不知道真相是什么。
If you watch the news like you watch wrestling, and you never know what's true, it would be more accurate.
如果你像看摔跤一样看新闻，而你永远不知道什么是真实的，那就更准确了。
You'd have a better sense of the world if you took it all in like it was pro wrestling.
如果你像职业摔跤一样看待这一切，你会对世界有更好的认识。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think we're in a place in human history where people are starting to feel that way about the media.
我认为，在人类历史上，我们正处于这样一个阶段，人们开始对媒体有这样的感觉。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
It's also why wrestling's so popular.
这也是摔跤如此受欢迎的原因。
It's more popular than it's ever been.
它比以往任何时候都更受欢迎。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, that's interesting.
是的，这很有趣。
Things like UFC, the kind of gladiator-like octagon fights, and wrestling are increasing in popularity, despite the fact that supposedly we're evolving .
UFC、类似角斗士的八角笼格斗和摔跤之类的活动越来越受欢迎，尽管事实上我们正在不断发展。
So I think it reflects something both primitive and evolved about the human brain.
所以我认为它反映了人类大脑的一些原始的和进化的东西。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Primitive in the sense that, yeah, there's some violence, it's physical.
原始的意思是，是的，有一些暴力，这是身体上的。
That's down in the hypothalamus, as we'd say.
正如我们所说，它位于下丘脑。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
No, it scratches that itch.
不，它会抓痒。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
But they're actually protecting each other.
但其实他们是在互相保护。
It scratches that itch of seeing the gladiators.
它消除了人们看到角斗士的渴望。
But it's like watching a movie.
但这就像看电影一样。
They're not really hurting each other.
他们并没有真正伤害彼此。
They get hurt, but only because the things they're doing are so crazy.
他们受伤，但只是因为他们所做的事情太疯狂了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think in order to be able to thoroughly enjoy wrestling, one has to be able to give up narrative distancing just a little bit, right?
我认为为了能够彻底享受摔跤，人们必须能够稍微放弃叙事距离，对吗？
Narrative distancing is this sense that this is a story, it's a movie, it's not real.
叙事距离是指这是一个故事，是一部电影，不是真实的。
But there were moments, like yesterday, the jump off the top rope onto the guy who's splayed out on the ladder.
但也有一些时刻，就像昨天一样，从顶部的绳子上跳到趴在梯子上的人身上。
The ladder breaks.
梯子断了。
This was right in front of us.
这就在我们面前。
It couldn't have felt good.
感觉不太好。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He walked away.
他走开了。
He seemed fine.
他看起来很好。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Ish.
是的。
But that, and then there was a match between two women where a woman put a metal plate into the bottoms of her suit and then ran and then jumped onto the other woman and hit her with the metal plate.
但是，然后有两个女人之间的一场比赛，一个女人把一块金属板放进她的衣服底部，然后跑起来，然后跳到另一个女人身上，用金属板打她。
And then the metal plate kind of slipped out, and she was walking around, and everyone knew she had cheated because you're not supposed to use the metal plate.
然后金属板滑了出来，她四处走动，每个人都知道她作弊了，因为你不应该使用金属板。
But so it was sort of exciting because she had done it, exciting because she had gotten away with it, and then at the same time, exciting and upsetting that the referee saw it but then didn't call it.
但所以这有点令人兴奋，因为她做到了，令人兴奋因为她侥幸逃脱了惩罚，但与此同时，令人兴奋和不安的是裁判看到了它但没有判罚。
I mean, this is like Twitter, X.
我的意思是，这就像 Twitter，X。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Like real life.
就像现实生活一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is like Instagram.
这就像Instagram。
This is like politics.
这就像政治。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is real life, right?
这就是现实生活，对吗？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like, seeing people get away with things is so frustrating.
就像，看到人们逃脱惩罚是多么令人沮丧。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you feel they shouldn't have.
如果你觉得他们不应该这样做。
Yeah.
是的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
That's all part of it.
这就是全部的一部分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
It's a very accurate representation of the world.
这是对世界的非常准确的表述。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Love it.
喜欢它。
It's weird because I never would've thought I'd be hooked.
这很奇怪，因为我从来没有想过我会上瘾。
I'm hooked.
我着迷了。
It's like archery and professional wrestling now.
就像现在的射箭和职业摔跤。
It's like I'm going to be a busy guy in '24.
就好像我将在 24 年成为一个忙碌的人。
I'm going to come back to this very practical question and ask a different question first.
我将回到这个非常实际的问题并首先问一个不同的问题。
There are a few comments in here that are just priceless, by the way.
顺便说一句，这里有一些评论是无价的。
Someone wanted to point out that you're a Pisces, and so was Einstein A couple of historical questions.
有人想指出你是双鱼座，爱因斯坦也是。几个历史问题。
I know you're not big on answering historical questions necessarily, maybe you are, but I can't help every time I see you asking a question about The Ramones or asking a question about Joe Strummer, but I like this question.
我知道你不一定擅长回答历史问题，也许你很擅长，但每次看到你问有关雷蒙斯乐队的问题或问有关乔·斯特鲁默的问题时，我都忍不住，但我喜欢这个问题。
First of all, it starts off, I love Rick Rubin.
首先，我爱瑞克·鲁宾。
He's so fascinating.
他是如此迷人。
There are so many questions that start that way.
有很多问题都是这样开始的。
On the podcast that you did with Joe Rogan, you talked about your experience with Johnny Cash and seeing him in a new light after doing interviews for a book about Johnny or something like that.
在你和乔·罗根一起做的播客中，你谈到了你和约翰尼·卡什的经历，以及在接受一本关于约翰尼或类似内容的书的采访后以新的眼光看待他。
The question this person asked was, from your present view, what was the most impactful moment or moments from being with him and working with him?
这个人问的问题是，从你目前的角度来看，与他在一起并与他一起工作最有影响力的时刻是什么？
Or simply, do you recall a moment working with Johnny Cash that you particularly enjoyed?
或者简单地说，您还记得与约翰尼·卡什（Johnny Cash）一起工作时您特别喜欢的时刻吗？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I enjoyed any time I got to spend time with him.
我很享受和他在一起的任何时间。
He was a really soulful, serious, shy, quiet man.
他是一个非常深情、严肃、害羞、安静的人。
Incredibly knowledgeable.
知识渊博得令人难以置信。
He knew a great deal about history and so much about music.
他对历史了解很多，对音乐也了解很多。
He knew every song.
每首歌他都熟悉。
He may not have known modern songs, but he knew the history of music really well.
他可能不懂现代歌曲，但他对音乐的历史非常了解。
And there was just a humble honesty about him that came through.
他身上流露出一种谦虚的诚实。
I think that the strength of him as an artist was when he said words, even if he didn't write the words, if he told a story in words, you believed that story.
我认为他作为一个艺术家的力量在于他说的话，即使他没有写出这些话，如果他用文字讲了一个故事，你就相信那个故事。
So he had a credible gravitas.
所以他有一种可信的庄重。
And he was great because of who he was.
他之所以伟大，是因为他的身份。
It wasn't his ability as a singer.
这不是他作为歌手的能力。
It wasn't his ability as a songwriter, although he was a great songwriter and he was a great singer, but that's not why he was Johnny Cash.
这不是他作为歌曲作者的能力，尽管他是一位伟大的歌曲作家，也是一位伟大的歌手，但这并不是他成为约翰尼·卡什的原因。
He was Johnny Cash because of the human being underneath.
他之所以成为约翰尼·卡什，是因为他内心深处的人性。
And anything that that guy would've done, we would be interested in, because that's how much of a beam of light he was on the planet.
那家伙所做的任何事情，我们都会感兴趣，因为这就是他在这个星球上的一束光。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It just happened to be music.
只是碰巧是音乐。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Just happened to be music.
只是碰巧是音乐。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love that.
我喜欢那个。
One question that came up a lot, and I think I can understand why, which is, how does one convince themselves that what they're doing and working on is worth it?
有一个问题经常出现，我想我可以理解为什么，即一个人如何说服自己，他们正在做的事情和正在从事的工作是值得的？
And I think here we have to define worth it.
我认为在这里我们必须定义值得。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we can define that any number of ways, but I think this is a feeling that I hear people express a lot.
我们可以通过多种方式来定义这一点，但我认为这是我听到人们表达过很多的一种感觉。
Like, how do I know if I'm on the right path?
比如，我怎么知道我是否走在正确的道路上？
And I just want to remind your earlier answer that you're pretty comfortable with uncertainty.
我只是想提醒您之前的回答，您对不确定性非常满意。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This and the unknown.
这和未知。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think that's a rare trait.
我认为这是一个罕见的特质。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
The question of worth it is reliant on an outcome.
值得的问题取决于结果。
We don't make these things for an outcome.
我们做这些事情不是为了结果。
It's not the mindset to make something great.
这不是创造伟大事物的心态。
The outcome happens.
结果发生了。
You're making the best thing you can make.
你正在做你能做的最好的事情。
It's a devotional practice.
这是一种虔诚的修行。
Whatever happens after that happens, and that part that happens after it is completely out of your control.
无论之后发生什么，以及之后发生的部分都完全超出你的控制范围。
Putting any energy into that part that's out of your control, it's a waste of time.
把任何精力投入到你无法控制的部分，都是浪费时间。
All it does is undermine your work.
它所做的一切只会破坏你的工作。
Your work is to make the best thing you can.
你的工作就是尽力做到最好。
So any thought you have about outcome undermines the whole thing.
因此，你对结果的任何想法都会破坏整个事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let that one sink in.
让那一个沉进去。
I think that's so important for people to hear.
我认为这对人们来说非常重要。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
And I'll say, it's okay to think about outcome after you've finished the thing you're making.
我想说的是，在完成你正在做的事情之后考虑结果是可以的。
Once you've made it, then you can say, "Hmm, what can I do to turn people onto this?" But in the making of it, it's premature.
一旦你做到了，你就可以说，“嗯，我该怎么做才能让人们接受这个呢？”但就其制定而言，现在还为时过早。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which brings my mind back to that diary entry-like approach.
这让我的思绪又回到了那种类似日记的方式。
Because when you do a diary entry, if you lie to yourself, you're going to get a lot less out of it.
因为当你写日记时，如果你对自己撒谎，你从中得到的就会少很多。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
It's a ridiculous idea, lying in your diary entries.
这是一个荒谬的想法，存在于你的日记中。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It is.
是的。
Well, it's so interesting because when you learn how to do really good science, and I was fortunate to work with someone who was truly committed to the truth and accuracy.
嗯，这很有趣，因为当你学习如何做真正好的科学研究时，我很幸运能与真正致力于真理和准确性的人一起工作。
She used to just say, whenever there was a scandal published, like someone fabricated data, she was like, "This is so crazy.
她过去常常说，每当有丑闻发布时，比如有人捏造数据，她就会说，“这太疯狂了。
Why would you get into science?" If you want to make stuff up-
你为什么要进入科学领域？”如果你想编造一些东西——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Defeats the whole purpose
违背了整个目的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you'd be better off going to something else.
你最好去别的地方。
So clearly, those people who make up data were not in science for discovery of truth as best we can understand it.
很明显，那些编造数据的人并不是为了发现我们所能理解的真理而从事科学的。
They were into it for something else.
他们热衷于其他事情。
But it's the same way you formulate a question, then a hypothesis, and then you just go see what is and what isn't.
但这就像你提出一个问题，然后提出一个假设，然后你就去看看什么是、什么不是。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then afterwards you decide, well, is this a paper that's sent to a top journal or a mediocre journal?
然后你会决定，这篇论文是发给顶级期刊还是平庸期刊？
But you can't control the outcome.
但你无法控制结果。
So it's very similar.
所以它非常相似。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Exactly the same.
完全一样。
And you'll see it in so many different aspects of life beyond art.
除了艺术之外，你还会在生活的许多不同方面看到它。
I think one of the things that was interesting that came up in writing the book is it started being about art, and I came to realize as I was putting the ideas together that it seems like regardless of what you do in life, if you follow these principles, your life will probably improve.
我认为写这本书时出现的有趣的事情之一是它开始与艺术有关，当我将这些想法放在一起时，我开始意识到，似乎无论你在生活中做什么，如果你遵循这些原则，你的生活可能会改善。
You'll probably be a better husband or a better father or a better whatever it is.
你可能会成为一个更好的丈夫或一个更好的父亲，或者任何更好的人。
It seems like the art is an outgrowth of-- It's why the subtitle is "A Way of Being." It's like you create yourself in a way in the world where the things that you make are tapped into something deep.
看起来艺术是……的产物——这就是为什么副标题是“存在的方式”。就像你在世界上以某种方式创造自己一样，你所创造的东西会深入到某些东西中。
But that comes from you being tapped into something deep.
但这来自于你对某些深层事物的挖掘。
That's how it works.
这就是它的工作原理。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So tapping into self, grounding in self, not thinking about outcome, diary entry-like approach to creating stuff That seems to be the-
因此，挖掘自我，立足自我，不考虑结果，用日记般的方式来创造东西，这似乎是——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
And I think one thing I'll say to that, because I say tapping into self, it doesn't come from the self, but you have to tap into yourself because you're the vessel to allow it to come out.
我想我要对此说一件事，因为我说挖掘自我，它不是来自自我，但你必须挖掘自己，因为你是让它出来的容器。
Everything in the vessel is coming from somewhere else.
容器中的所有东西都来自其他地方。
It's not your creation.
这不是你的创造。
It's like you're the sculptor or you're the data analyst, where you're taking these things from different places that you've noticed.
这就像你是雕塑家或数据分析师，你从你注意到的不同地方获取这些东西。
Some things that you've noticed, some things that you don't know that you've noticed, but you did.
有些事情你已经注意到了，有些事情你不知道你已经注意到了，但你确实注意到了。
That's how we learn.
这就是我们学习的方式。
We take in a lot of information that we don't even know we're taking in.
我们接收了很多我们甚至不知道自己正在接收的信息。
But the way we can take these data points that are inside of us, that came from outside of us, and create a constellation, that's what the artist's job is.
但是，我们如何获取这些来自我们内部、外部的数据点，并创建一个星座，这就是艺术家的工作。
But also, that's what we all do all the time.
而且，这也是我们一直在做的事情。
And to get better at it, it's getting more in tune with yourself and opening yourself to things outside of...
为了做得更好，你需要与自己更加协调，并向外界的事物敞开心扉……
I'll say if you have a narrow belief system, you'll have less information to work with, less data points.
我想说的是，如果你有一个狭隘的信仰体系，你将拥有更少的信息和更少的数据点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
So being open-minded and allowing surprise, to be surprised.
因此，要保持开放的心态，允许惊喜、惊喜。
Holding all of your beliefs very loosely.
非常宽松地持有你所有的信念。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's interesting because the way you describe this, and from knowing you as well, it seems that this whole process is best served by having really good boundaries, like not getting foggy about what's about you and what's about somebody else, or about what other people want or the world wants.
这很有趣，因为从你描述这一点的方式以及对你的了解来看，似乎整个过程最好是通过拥有真正良好的界限来实现的，比如不要对关于你和别人的事情，或者其他人想要什么或世界想要什么感到困惑。
But also having really good antennae and being able to see what's happening in the world.
但同时也拥有非常好的触角，能够看到世界上正在发生的事情。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You can't be cloistered and like this.
你不能像这样与世隔绝。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But part of the creative process kind of feels and looks like you're in a tunnel, but then you have to bring in from the outside.
但创作过程的一部分感觉和看起来都像是在隧道中，但随后你必须从外部引入。
So it seems like making these two separate compartments that you can bridge seems important and healthy.
因此，制作这两个可以桥接的独立隔间似乎很重要且健康。
Here, as you mentioned, it's a way of being.
正如您所提到的，这是一种存在方式。
It's not just about creating things.
这不仅仅是创造东西。
That's also a healthy way to be in the world, because if you're constantly getting pulled around by everything emotionally and things are upsetting you, that's not good.
这也是一种健康的处世方式，因为如果你不断地被情感上的一切所左右，并且事情让你心烦意乱，那就不好了。
But if you're just cut off from everything, that's not good either.
但如果你只是与一切隔绝，那就不好了。
Do you cultivate that way of being through these practices?
你是否通过这些实践培养了这种存在方式？
Or do you think there's something about the way you're wired that you started off that way?
或者你认为你一开始就是这样的，与你的连线方式有什么关系吗？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
It feels natural to me.
对我来说这感觉很自然。
And I'll tell you, when I was younger, I thought I would live in New York City my whole life, and there was a time when I felt like having that energy and noise around me felt good.
我会告诉你，当我年轻的时候，我以为我会一生都住在纽约市，有一段时间我觉得周围有这种能量和噪音感觉很好。
Now I feel best in the jungle or the forest.
现在我在丛林或森林里感觉最好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I didn't decide that.
我没有这么决定。
I didn't decide what feels good.
我没有决定什么感觉好。
It just happened.
它就这样发生了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you're clearly willing to update and adapt.
所以你显然愿意更新和适应。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
All the time.
一直以来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Change your nutrition, change your-
改变你的营养，改变你的——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
All the time
一直以来
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
city, change the way you feel.
城市，改变你的感受。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Get new information, update.
获取新信息，更新。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Love it.
喜欢它。
You're a scientist after all.
毕竟你是一名科学家。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Well, I don't know anything.
嗯，我什么都不知道。
Again, we start with I know nothing.
再说一次，我们从我一无所知开始。
We all know nothing.
我们都一无所知。
So if something sounds interesting, worth trying, I'll try it, see, does it work, does it not work?
因此，如果某件事听起来很有趣，值得尝试，我会尝试一下，看看它是否有效？
At one point in time, I thought veganism was a good idea.
有一段时间，我认为素食主义是个好主意。
I was excited about it.
我对此很兴奋。
And I did it for a long time.
我做了很长时间。
I didn't get the results I was hoping for.
我没有得到我所希望的结果。
I didn't have better health.
我没有更好的健康状况。
I had much worse health.
我的健康状况更糟。
I had a tremendous amount of weight gain, and I was very ill through that diet.
我的体重增加了很多，而且由于这种饮食，我病得很重。
But my intentions were good.
但我的初衷是好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How do you approach resistance, especially resistance in other artists you work with?
您如何应对阻力，尤其是与您合作的其他艺术家的阻力？
Presumably, people hire you, they want to work with you, they do want to work with you.
据推测，人们雇用了你，他们想和你一起工作，他们确实想和你一起工作。
But I think what the person is asking here is, if somebody you're working with is stuck, like they're stuck, do you ask them to think?
但我认为这个人在这里问的是，如果与你一起工作的人陷入困境，就像他们陷入困境一样，你会要求他们思考吗？
Do you ask them to feel?
你要求他们感受吗？
Do you ask them to take a day off?
你要求他们休息一天吗？
Do you do a Dennis Rodman on them and send them to Vegas to party for a couple of days because that's what worked for Dennis?
你会模仿丹尼斯·罗德曼，然后派他们去维加斯参加几天的派对吗？因为这对丹尼斯来说很有效？
Do you leave them alone?
你让他们一个人呆着吗？
Let them come to you?
让他们来找你？
I think people are very curious about what those sorts of interactions are like.
我认为人们很好奇这些互动是什么样的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I think it's always a case-by-case situation.
我认为这始终是具体情况而定。
It really depends on the artist.
这确实取决于艺术家。
It depends on the situation, and usually by the time that we're working together, any resistance they had in the past has already been overcome.
这取决于情况，通常当我们一起工作时，他们过去遇到的任何阻力都已经被克服了。
Usually, I'm together with someone where we make a team with the idea of making the best thing we possibly can, and we'll both do anything we can for that thing to be the best it can be.
通常，我和某人一起组成一个团队，我们的想法是尽可能地做出最好的事情，我们都会尽我们所能，让事情做到最好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
We're past the resistance.
我们已经克服了阻力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I notice you remain friends with a lot of the people you've worked with, which is a great testament to you and your work and who you are.
我注意到您与许多共事过的人仍然是朋友，这很好地证明了您、您的工作以及您是谁。
I just want to mention that.
我只想提一下。
That's not always the case, folks, with other producer-artist relationships, so it's worth pointing out.
伙计们，对于其他制作人和艺术家的关系来说，情况并非总是如此，所以值得指出。
A practical question, but I think one that is worth asking is, do you handle the finances around your work with artists, or do you have someone else do negotiations and all of that kind of stuff?
一个实际的问题，但我认为值得一问的是，你是否处理与艺术家合作的财务问题，或者你是否让其他人进行谈判以及所有类似的事情？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I honestly have no idea how it works.
老实说，我不知道它是如何工作的。
I have no clue.
我不知道。
Everything seems to get done, but I have no idea the inner workings of any of it.
一切似乎都完成了，但我不知道其中任何一个的内部运作方式。
I try to stay out of as much.
我尽量不参与其中。
If it's not about making the beautiful thing in the moment, I don't really want to think about it too much.
如果不是为了创造当下美好的事物，我真的不想考虑太多。
I don't want to be involved in that aspect
我不想参与这方面的事情
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was interesting when I was visiting you this summer, we had a really delightful dinner conversation with one of your other guests.
有趣的是，今年夏天我拜访您时，我们与您的一位其他客人进行了一次非常愉快的晚餐交谈。
And at one point, probably due to me, frankly, the conversation veered a bit into the business realm.
坦率地说，有一次，可能是因为我，谈话有点转向了商业领域。
And I'll never forget, you said, in a very polite way that didn't feel dismissive at all, you said, "Let's talk about art instead." Right?
我永远不会忘记，你以一种非常礼貌的方式说，一点也不觉得轻蔑，“我们来谈谈艺术吧。”正确的？
Like, "Enough about business.
就像，“生意够了。
Let's talk about art instead."
我们来谈谈艺术吧。”
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And in that moment-
就在那一刻——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I don't remember that.
我不记得了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I gleaned a lot of gems from that visit.
嗯，我从那次访问中收集到了很多宝贵的东西。
I wasn't there to study you, I was there to hang out with you, but I gleaned so many gems, treading water in the pool, some of the other practices we'll talk about.
我不是来研究你的，我是来和你一起玩的，但我收集了很多宝石，在游泳池里踩水，以及我们将讨论的其他一些做法。
But I remember that, and I think about that in myself a lot.
但我记得这一点，而且我自己也经常思考这一点。
In the morning, the emails and things coming in, and then I think my purpose in life at this point in my life is to collect, organize, and disseminate health and science information.
早上，收到电子邮件和其他事情，然后我认为我此时的人生目标是收集、组织和传播健康和科学信息。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So that, for me, is art in a sense.
所以，对我来说，从某种意义上来说，这就是艺术。
And anything else feels kind of boring.
其他的事情都感觉有点无聊。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Someone else can do that.
其他人可以做到这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Someone else can do it.
其他人可以做到。
You have a particular gift, in that you can take complicated scientific ideas and explain them in a way that all of us who are not scientists or not medical students can understand.
你有一种特殊的天赋，因为你可以理解复杂的科学思想，并以我们所有非科学家或非医学生都能理解的方式解释它们。
And it's really helpful.
这真的很有帮助。
And you do it in a kind and loving way where we get the sense that you care that we understand.
你以一种友善和爱心的方式做到这一点，我们感觉到你关心我们理解。
You explain it in a way that there's a care in it that really speaks to us.
你的解释方式让我们感受到其中的关怀。
So thank you for thank you for teaching us.
所以谢谢您教导我们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
And thanks for the words.
谢谢你的话。
That means a lot to me.
这对我来说意义重大。
That is indeed what it is for me.
这确实是对我来说的。
I want people to know the information because I think it's so cool and so important, and they need the information, and it's not about me.
我希望人们了解这些信息，因为我认为这很酷、很重要，他们需要这些信息，但与我无关。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's like they have to know.
就好像他们必须知道一样。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you did it this morning for this guy on the beach, so he'll see the light, pun intended.
今天早上你在海滩上为这个家伙做了这件事，所以他会看到光明，双关语。
Do you prefer the WWE or the AEW, Rick?
瑞克，你更喜欢 WWE 还是 AEW？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I love them both.
我爱他们俩。
I love pro wrestling.
我喜欢职业摔跤。
Pro wrestling is great.
职业摔跤很棒。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How often do you abandon an idea or project?
您多久放弃一个想法或项目？
Is there a pile of journals with crossed-out ideas someplace in Rick Rubin's basement?
里克·鲁宾的地下室里有一堆被划掉的想法的日记吗？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I would say there are many ideas that have not yet come to fruition, but I wouldn't say I've abandoned any.
我想说有很多想法还没有实现，但我不会说我已经放弃了任何一个。
It seems like the ideas have a time when they want to come to fruition, and regardless of what I think, I don't get to determine the calendar.
似乎这些想法都有一个想要实现的时间，无论我怎么想，我都无法确定日历。
The ideas come, I can get excited about it, I can work on it, and then hit a wall.
想法来了，我可以为此感到兴奋，我可以为之努力，然后碰壁。
Nothing else, and nothing, it's just impenetrable.
没有别的，也没有什么，就是难以捉摸。
And then there'll be another project that's just sailing along easily, and the universe is working to help support that idea.
然后会有另一个项目顺利进行，宇宙正在努力帮助支持这个想法。
So I tend to work where there's several balls in the air at once, and I don't fight against...
所以我倾向于在同时有几个球在空中工作的地方，而且我不会对抗......
If the universe is not helping a project, I'm wary to fight with the universe.
如果宇宙没有帮助一个项目，我会小心翼翼地与宇宙对抗。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How many projects are you working on right now, or typically?
您现在或通常正在处理多少个项目？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
It's impossible for me to even say.
我什至不可能说。
There are so many ideas, and some of them are in idea phase, and some of them are in mid-making stage, and some of them are in the final detail stage.
有很多想法，有些处于构想阶段，有些处于制作中期，有些处于最终细节阶段。
There's always something happening.
总会有事情发生。
I'm always thinking about a lot of stuff.
我总是在想很多事情。
And some of it is stuff that I get to share with the world, but some of it might be remodeling a space or I'm always thinking about some creative puzzle.
其中一些是我可以与世界分享的东西，但其中一些可能是重塑空间，或者我总是在思考一些创造性的难题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have to imagine that for you, when the internet came to be, that it must have been really exciting because, like me, you love foraging for information.
我必须想象，对于您来说，当互联网出现时，它一定非常令人兴奋，因为您像我一样喜欢寻找信息。
And I used to go to the library and Xerox copy papers, and I loved looking through the stacks, but frankly, it was physically exhausting and time-consuming, and financially, it was hard for me at the time.
我过去常常去图书馆复印复印纸，我喜欢翻阅书堆，但坦白说，这既费体力又费时间，而且在经济上，当时对我来说很困难。
And then you'd always get those copies where the book crease obscured the text closer to the spine of the book.
然后你总会得到那些书的折痕遮盖了靠近书脊的文本的副本。
And I love PubMed.
我喜欢考研。
The world's at my fingertips.
世界就在我的指尖。
The world of research is at my fingertips.
研究世界触手可及。
My goodness.
天哪。
How do you feel about smartphones and the internet?
您对智能手机和互联网有何看法？
To you, does it feel like a giant gift for your creative process, or is it an inhibitor?
对你来说，这对你的创作过程来说是一份巨大的礼物，还是一种阻碍？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
It's both.
两者都是。
I love that all the information is at our fingertips, and sometimes having so much information is hard to sort.
我喜欢所有信息都触手可及，但有时拥有如此多的信息很难分类。
I'll tell you a quick story, which was when the music streaming revolution happened.
我会告诉你一个简单的故事，那是音乐流媒体革命发生的时候。
I was really excited.
我真的很兴奋。
The idea that all of music is in my pocket now, and I can listen to any song, any album from any point in my life where I get to hear about something, and it's all accessible right now in this moment.
现在所有的音乐都在我的口袋里，我可以在生命中任何时候听到任何歌曲、任何专辑，只要我能听到一些东西，而且这一切现在都可以访问。
And I was thinking at that time, "I'm just going to DJ.
那时我在想，“我只是去当 DJ。
All I'm going to do is DJ, and I'm going to listen to anything I can think of that I'm excited about.
我要做的就是 DJ，我会听任何我能想到的让我兴奋的音乐。
Haven't heard the Talking Heads in a while.
好久没听Talking Heads 的歌了。
Let's listen to Talking Heads." Just how great that freedom is to have everything at your fingertips.
让我们来听听《会说话的头脑》吧。”一切都触手可及的自由是多么伟大啊。
And what I came to learn very quickly is I don't want to DJ all day.
我很快就意识到我不想整天做 DJ。
I love that I have the ability to DJ all day.
我很高兴我有能力整天做 DJ。
I love that when there's something I want to hear, I can find it, but I don't want to have to do the work of picking everything I'm going to listen to.
我喜欢当我想听一些东西时，我可以找到它，但我不想做挑选我要听的所有内容的工作。
I like being programmed to.
我喜欢被编程。
And I like the discovery of somebody else playing something that I wasn't expecting and getting to enjoy that.
我喜欢发现其他人演奏了我没有预料到的东西并享受其中。
So now I do more listening to either somebody's curated playlists or online radio stations, and I do less picking music to listen to But I never would've known that before because I always thought, well, if I could listen to anything I want, I want to listen to what I want to listen to.
所以现在我更多地听某人策划的播放列表或在线广播电台，而更少选择要听的音乐。但我以前永远不会知道这一点，因为我总是想，好吧，如果我可以听任何我想听的东西，我想听我想听的东西。
I didn't know that I didn't want to have to pick it.
我不知道我不想选择它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love the rare live versions and B sides and whatever Z sides that one can find on YouTube.
我喜欢罕见的现场版本、B 面以及 YouTube 上可以找到的任何 Z 面。
The other day you sent me, just at random, a clip from, I think it was a Japanese television show with the Ramones opening up.
有一天，你随机给我发了一段片段，我想这是一部日本电视节目，雷蒙斯乐队正在开场。
And Johnny opens up with, "You're a loud mouth, baby, you better shut up." And then they dive into "Loudmouth."
约翰尼开口说道：“宝贝，你的嘴巴太大了，你最好闭嘴。”然后他们开始研究“Loudmouth”。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
With "Loudmouth." Yeah.
与“大嘴”。是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's the song I could've heard anywhere else, but it was the fact that it was shot from above, that it was black and white, and that he adds this little riff at the beginning, "You're a loud mouth, baby, you better shut up," and then just dives into it.
这是我在其他地方也能听到的歌曲，但事实是它是从上方拍摄的，它是黑白的，而且他在开头添加了这个小重复，“你的嘴巴很大，宝贝，你最好闭嘴，”然后就开始投入其中。
That made it for me, as a huge Ramones fan.
作为雷蒙斯的忠实粉丝，这对我来说是成功的。
I was like, "Yeah." I think I did that in my kitchen.
我当时想，“是的。”我想我是在厨房里做的。
"Yeah." I was so hyped.
“是的。”我太兴奋了。
Because when you go and just listen to a song that's recorded as part of an album, you're not going to get those additional pieces.
因为当你去听一首作为专辑的一部分录制的歌曲时，你不会得到那些额外的片段。
Back in the day, and still now, if you went to a live show, you might see that and hear that and never forget that.
过去，现在，如果你去看现场表演，你可能会看到、听到并且永远不会忘记。
But in that sense, to me, YouTube and the internet is like, whoa.
但从这个意义上说，对我来说，YouTube 和互联网就像，哇。
It's this archive of gems.
这是宝石档案。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That I potentially have been there.
我可能去过那里。
Maybe it was '79.
也许那是79年。
I would've been four years old.
那时候我已经四岁了。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, anyway, thanks for sending me that clip.
所以，无论如何，感谢您向我发送该剪辑。
Loved it, because you know how much I love the Ramones.
喜欢它，因为你知道我有多喜欢雷蒙斯乐队。
But things like that, I just think, God, the internet is just amazing and so spectacular.
但像这样的事情，我只是想，上帝啊，互联网真是太神奇了，太壮观了。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Yeah, and the amount of lectures you could find on YouTube are unbelievable.
是的，您可以在 YouTube 上找到数量惊人的讲座。
The greatest thinkers in the world, I don't want to say are on YouTube because they probably didn't post on YouTube, but their material is on YouTube and it's unbelievable.
我不想说世界上最伟大的思想家都在 YouTube 上，因为他们可能没有在 YouTube 上发帖，但他们的材料却在 YouTube 上，这令人难以置信。
Things from old films from the '50s and '60s.
50 年代和 60 年代老电影中的情节。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
It's all on YouTube.
一切都在 YouTube 上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I've been listening to Bible interpretation on YouTube.
我一直在 YouTube 上听圣经解释。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's interesting to hear different interpretations-
听到不同的解释很有趣——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
from different perspectives.
从不同的角度来看。
I would've never found these people.
我永远不会找到这些人。
Most of them are dead.
他们中的大多数人都死了。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Send me links, please.
请给我发送链接。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, they're so good.
是啊，他们太好了。
I'm trying to work through the Old Testament start to finish now as a learning and a practice, and wow.
我现在正在尝试从头到尾地学习旧约圣经，作为一种学习和练习，哇。
Okay, so the question was, are smartphones the chains that bind us and prevent our creativity?
好吧，问题是，智能手机是束缚我们、阻碍我们创造力的锁链吗？
But I think you answered that it's both a rocket ship to creativity and chains to the ground.
但我想你的回答是，它既是创造力的火箭飞船，又是落地的链条。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
And it's like all other tools.
它就像所有其他工具一样。
It's like the tools don't make or break your art.
就像工具不会成就或毁掉你的艺术一样。
It's another tool.
这是另一个工具。
You can use it or misuse it.
你可以使用它，也可以滥用它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Someone wanted to know, and I would like to know, whether or not you have any recurring dreams, and what are your thoughts on dreams and dreaming in general?
有人想知道，我也想知道，你是否有重复出现的梦，以及你对梦和一般梦的看法是什么？
Do you write down your dreams?
你写下你的梦想吗？
Do you spend time thinking about them?
你花时间思考他们吗？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I've gone through phases of my life where I've written down dreams.
我经历了人生的各个阶段，写下了梦想。
I'm not doing it right now.
我现在不做。
I think we can learn a lot from writing our dreams.
我认为我们可以从书写梦想中学到很多东西。
I tend not to analyze them in the moment, but I've noticed when I've kept a dream journal and looked at it years later, these surreal things that made no sense were all saying the same thing, and they were all very clear based on my life experience at that time.
我倾向于不去分析它们，但我注意到，当我写梦日记并在多年后查看它时，这些超现实的、毫无意义的事情都在说同样的事情，而且根据我当时的生活经历，它们都非常清楚。
So it gives us clues as to what's actually going on, the way our subconscious is experiencing our lives.
因此，它为我们提供了关于实际发生的事情以及我们的潜意识如何体验我们的生活的线索。
It's giving us, I don't know if I would call them pointers.
它给了我们，我不知道我是否会称它们为指针。
Reflections would maybe be a better word.
反思也许是一个更好的词。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Our mutual friend, Paul Conti, believes that the unconscious or subconscious, both used interchangeably, is the supercomputer of the human brain.
我们共同的朋友保罗·孔蒂 (Paul Conti) 认为，无意识或潜意识（两者可以互换使用）是人脑的超级计算机。
That the misconception is that the forebrain, which is involved in planning and context and anticipation of outcomes, et cetera, people think that's the supercomputer, but that the supercomputer is the unconscious.
人们的误解是，前脑参与计划、情境和结果预期等，人们认为那是超级计算机，但超级计算机是无意识的。
That's Paul's belief.
这就是保罗的信念。
He's stated that very clearly on this podcast and elsewhere, and he believes that in dreams, the unconscious mind is controlling more of the dialogue.
他在这个播客和其他地方非常清楚地指出了这一点，他相信在梦中，无意识思维正在控制更多的对话。
Which makes a lot of sense.
这很有意义。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But also that the unconscious mind is constantly trying to teach us things in the way that we learn best.
但潜意识也在不断尝试以我们学得最好的方式教我们东西。
So, my dreams, for instance, are all analogies, because that's pretty much, if people listen to me talk on the podcast, I often will use analogy.
所以，例如，我的梦想都是类比，因为这几乎是，如果人们在播客上听我讲话，我经常会使用类比。
And I'm very visual, so it will present things to me in visual symbols.
而且我很视觉化，所以它会用视觉符号把东西呈现给我。
So Paul said in terms of dream interpretation that we would all be wise to think about how we learn best, and our unconscious mind is trying to toss us things in dreams to explain things in the way that we learn.
因此，保罗在梦的解释方面说，我们都应该明智地思考如何才能最好地学习，而我们的潜意识正试图向我们扔梦中的东西，以我们学习的方式解释事物。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
It makes sense.
这是有道理的。
And I would say also, unconscious and our instinct, the way we act instinctually is a reflection of our unconscious.
我还要说，无意识和我们的本能，我们本能的行为方式是我们无意识的反映。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
And as artists, that's tapping into that.
作为艺术家，那就是利用这一点。
The instinct and the unconscious is where the great ideas are, and then the things that come from our intellectual selves, they have much less of a charge.
本能和无意识是伟大思想的所在，而来自我们理智自我的事物，它们的作用要小得多。
They're much smaller ideas.
它们的想法要小得多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I think the conscious mind and the intellectual mind, as you're calling it, are bound to outcome in a big way.
我认为，正如你所说的，有意识的头脑和理智的头脑一定会产生重大成果。
I'm going to inject a question of my own.
我要提出一个我自己的问题。
I'm fascinated by the way you've discussed people's real underlying motivations and how that shapes their creative process but also their career.
我对你讨论人们真正的潜在动机以及这如何塑造他们的创作过程以及他们的职业生涯的方式着迷。
If you would be willing to talk a little bit about the story of Andrew Dice Clay.
如果您愿意谈谈安德鲁·戴斯·克莱的故事。
That's the story that, to me, captures it best.
对我来说，这个故事最能体现它。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Andrew Dice Clay was a comedian who told really offensive jokes, and his audience loved him for it But the people who weren't his audience didn't really understand it, and they vilified him.
安德鲁·戴斯·克莱（Andrew Dice Clay）是一位喜剧演员，他讲的笑话非常令人反感，他的观众因此喜欢他，但那些不是他观众的人并不真正理解他，他们还诽谤他。
And he became a comedian because he wanted people to love him.
他成为一名喜剧演员是因为他希望人们爱他。
He didn't become a comedian to hurt anybody.
他成为喜剧演员并不是为了伤害任何人。
He wanted to entertain people.
他想娱乐人们。
And while he was playing to sold-out Madison Square Gardens full of people, newspapers would write terrible things about him, and it really got to him.
当他在满座的麦迪逊广场花园演出时，报纸上会写一些关于他的可怕的事情，这对他来说确实很重要。
And he decided to change his artistic output to try to make the people who didn't like him like him.
他决定改变他的艺术作品，试图让那些不喜欢他的人喜欢他。
And when he did that, it undermined his whole gift, and it seemed like things fell apart.
当他这样做时，他的全部天赋就被削弱了，一切似乎都崩溃了。
I think he's in a better place now.
我认为他现在处于更好的位置。
I haven't seen him in a while, but I think he's in a better place now, and he's back to caring less about the reaction and in turn, getting a better reaction Because he's being pure in what he thinks is funny.
我已经有一段时间没见到他了，但我认为他现在处于更好的状态，他不再那么关心人们的反应，反过来，他的反应也更好了，因为他在他认为有趣的事情上很纯粹。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I liked him very much.
我非常喜欢他。
In fact, I thought he did a spectacular job as playing the female artist's father in "A Star is Born," which had Lady Gaga and Bradley Cooper.
事实上，我认为他在由 Lady Gaga 和布莱德利·库珀主演的《一个明星的诞生》中饰演这位女艺术家的父亲非常出色。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
He's a really good actor.
他是一个非常好的演员。
He's a great actor.
他是一位伟大的演员。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, I really like the story about him because it encapsulates so much that if people can think about why they do what they do, they're going to avoid pitfalls, potentially.
嗯，我真的很喜欢关于他的故事，因为它概括了很多内容，如果人们能够思考他们为什么要做他们所做的事情，他们就有可能避免陷入陷阱。
But how much time do you think people should spend introspecting about what makes them tick and why they want to entertain or make jokes or--
但你认为人们应该花多少时间来反思是什么让他们兴奋，为什么他们想要娱乐或开玩笑，或者——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I don't think it's a one-size-fits-all.
我不认为这是一刀切的。
I don't know that I could answer that question.
我不知道我能回答这个问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is it true that Ad-Rock encouraged you to give LL Cool J a chance?
Ad-Rock 真的鼓励你给 LL Cool J 一个机会吗？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes, that is true.
是的，确实如此。
Ad-Rock heard the demo tape and insisted that I listen to it.
Ad-Rock 听了演示磁带并坚持让我听。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Love that.
喜欢那个。
This is a kind of generic question, but I think it's good to put these in every once in a while.
这是一个普遍的问题，但我认为偶尔提出这些问题是很好的。
What is your advice to a starting comedian?
您对喜剧新手有什么建议？
These are the sort of like-- I always think of these like, sophomore in high school kind of question, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're bad.
这些就像——我总是想到这些像高中二年级学生那样的问题，但这并不一定意味着它们很糟糕。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
No, not at all.
不，一点也不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In some sense, that's what makes it such a great question.
从某种意义上说，这就是它成为一个伟大问题的原因。
Like, what would your advice be to a starting comedian?
比如，你对喜剧新手有什么建议？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Be true to yourself and not to listen to anyone.
忠于自己，不要听任何人的意见。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There you go.
就这样吧。
It would be a great book, except it'd be a very short book, which would also make it a very great book.
这将是一本很棒的书，除了它是一本非常短的书，这也使它成为一本非常伟大的书。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Well, it could be a blank book.
好吧，它可能是一本空白书。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It could be a blank, exactly.
确切地说，它可能是一个空白。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
You can just put all the things that you want to put in it.
你可以把所有你想放的东西都放进去。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, man.
哦，伙计。
I'm working on a book now, and I'll tell you, it's hard.
我现在正在写一本书，我告诉你，这很难。
By the way, I asked Rick for advice about book writing, because I've been trying to write this book for a while, and he gave me the following advice.
顺便说一句，我向里克寻求关于写书的建议，因为我已经尝试写这本书有一段时间了，他给了我以下建议。
So I'm injecting my own question.
所以我提出我自己的问题。
He said, "The sooner you can get to a complete draft that you're happy with or happy-ish with, the better the process will go." So I'm working on getting that complete draft.
他说：“你越早得到一份令你满意或大约满意的完整草案，整个过程就会进展得越好。”所以我正在努力获得完整的草案。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
I would say don't focus too much on any of the individual details until you have the whole thing down, and then you can focus on making everything better that you want to make better.
我想说的是，在你把整个事情都搞清楚之前，不要太关注任何个别细节，然后你就可以专注于让你想要做得更好的一切变得更好。
Don't get bogged down in that at the expense of getting through the project.
不要陷入困境而以牺牲完成项目为代价。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Your advice has really been helping me, by the way.
顺便说一下，你的建议确实对我很有帮助。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Great.
太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm doing it like diary entries.
我就像写日记一样。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Great.
太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I've kept a diary for many years, so that's somewhat natural.
我写日记已经很多年了，所以这有点自然。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Tell me a little bit about your diary entries.
告诉我一些你的日记。
How long is a diary entry?
一篇日记有多长？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Yeah.
是的。
A diary entry is anywhere from one to eight handwritten pages, single-line spacing, going back and forth between-- I usually start in all capitals and then switch over to cursive as I speed up.
日记条目可以是手写的一到八页，单行间距，来回书写——我通常从大写开始，然后随着速度加快而切换到草书。
I've been doing that since, gosh, since high school.
天啊，从高中起我就一直这么做了。
I've got a drawer filled with them, dated and everything.
我的抽屉里装满了它们，还有日期等等。
And it's usually a process of just trying to get something out of my system that I feel is clogging me, some frustration with the outside world.
这通常是一个试图从我的系统中取出一些我觉得阻碍我的东西的过程，比如对外界的一些挫败感。
But sometimes, like this morning, I journaled in the room before you showed up, and I just was like, I think I was riding high off wrestling last night.
但有时，就像今天早上，我在你出现之前在房间里写日记，我就想，我觉得我昨晚摔跤得很开心。
I was marveling at how similar the great experiences of my life are now as they were to every other stage of my life, in the sense that they give me this feeling of like, okay, like there are these gems of people, you and others, and experiences, and I'm finding them.
我惊叹于我生命中的伟大经历现在与我生命中的其他阶段是多么相似，从某种意义上说，它们给我一种感觉，好吧，就像有这些人、你和其他人以及经历的宝石，而我正在寻找它们。
I'm experiencing them and reminding myself that there are long periods in between those moments where things feel kind of like, not empty, certainly not empty, but kind of frustrating in the sense that I'm busy and I'm dealing with a bunch of things, and things don't feel smooth.
我正在经历它们，并提醒自己，在这些时刻之间有很长一段时间，事情感觉有点像，不是空虚，当然不是空虚，而是有点令人沮丧，因为我很忙，我正在处理一堆事情，而且事情感觉不顺利。
But I've been through enough of these cycles that I just am really learning to enjoy the cycles.
但我已经经历了足够多的这些周期，我真的正在学着享受这些周期。
And that was it.
就是这样。
And I think the last line in my entry was something like, "And I can't wait for more," or something.
我认为我的条目中的最后一行类似于“我等不及更多了”之类的东西。
So this morning was just a very positive entry, but sometimes there are definitely some tear-stained entries, and there are definitely some entries where I'm just so pissed I can barely get the writing out.
所以今天早上只是一个非常积极的条目，但有时肯定会有一些泪流满面的条目，而且肯定有一些条目让我非常生气，我几乎无法写出来。
But it's a process of getting that stuff out so then I can lean into the day.
但这是一个把这些东西拿出来的过程，这样我就可以迎接新的一天。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Do you ever go back and look at them?
你有没有回去看看他们？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I did the other day because I recorded an episode on a very particular type of journaling that's supported by over 200 peer-reviewed studies, which is called expressive writing.
前几天我这样做是因为我在一种非常特殊的日记类型上录制了一集，这种日记得到了超过 200 项同行评审研究的支持，这种日记被称为表达性写作。
I can tell you about it in brief.
我可以简单地告诉你。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah, I'd love to hear about it.
是的，我很想听听。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a process that was developed by James Pennebaker, who is a professor at University of Texas Austin, and he had his students write as part of an experiment for 15 minutes a day for just four days ...
这个过程是由德克萨斯大学奥斯汀分校教授 James Pennebaker 开发的，他让他的学生每天写作 15 分钟，作为实验的一部分，持续了四天......
either consecutive days or a week apart, but about the same thing.
连续几天或相隔一周，但大致相同。
And the thing that they're supposed to write about is the most challenging, upsetting, or even traumatizing experience of their life.
他们应该写的事情是他们一生中最具挑战性、最令人不安、甚至是最受创伤的经历。
And it shows that the data from over 200 studies show incredible positive shifts in psychology, physiology, immune system function, and ability to combat infections.
它表明，来自 200 多项研究的数据显示，心理、生理、免疫系统功能和抵抗感染的能力发生了令人难以置信的积极转变。
I was so struck by the data from this work that I decided to dedicate a whole podcast episode to it.
这项工作中的数据给我留下了深刻的印象，因此我决定专门为其制作一整集播客。
It'll probably be out by the time this episode airs.
到这一集播出时，它可能就出来了。
But I haven't done that one yet.
但我还没有做到这一点。
I'm going to do it.
我会去做的。
It's a little bit of a higher bar of entry because it's like, okay, I hear that the first day especially is pretty upsetting because you're purposely picking something really hard.
这是一个有点更高的准入门槛，因为就像，好吧，我听说第一天尤其令人沮丧，因为你故意选择了一些非常困难的东西。
But most of the journaling I do is just kind of diary, like here's what happened, here's what's going on, and my biggest fear is that somebody would find them.
但我写的大部分日记都只是日记，就像这就是发生的事情，这就是正在发生的事情，我最担心的是有人会找到它们。
But in preparation for that episode about Pennebaker, I went and looked at my journals and was like, "Well, what do I write about?" And I realized they're pretty autobiographical.
但在准备关于彭尼贝克的那一集时，我去看了我的日记，然后想，“好吧，我该写什么？”我意识到它们相当自传。
Sometimes about troubling things, but never before had I written four times in a row about the exact same thing.
有时会写一些令人烦恼的事情，但我以前从未连续写过四次关于完全相同的事情。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Interesting.
有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Pennebaker, I think, deserves a Nobel Prize.
我认为彭尼贝克应该获得诺贝尔奖。
If you look at the data on this compared to, and I'm not disparaging prescription drugs per se, but like SSRIs for depression, it's at least as good a treatment.
如果你看一下这方面的数据，我并不是贬低处方药本身，而是像治疗抑郁症的 SSRIs 一样，它至少是一种很好的治疗方法。
It's zero cost stuff.
这是零成本的东西。
And on and on.
不断地。
To be careful, I'll start giving the podcast again now.
为了小心起见，我现在将再次开始播客。
There were a number of questions about, quote unquote, "entertainment and music industry." None of which, unfortunately, were particularly complimentary of, quote, "the industry." And I think this is something that comes up a lot because people often focus on the marketing, the personalities that may or may not be so pleasant at times.
有很多关于“娱乐和音乐产业”的问题。不幸的是，这些都没有特别赞扬“行业”。我认为这种情况经常出现，因为人们经常关注营销，有时可能会或可能不会那么令人愉快的个性。
I'm sure there are a ton of pleasant personalities in the industry, too.
我相信这个行业也有很多令人愉快的人物。
But the question is this: how do you deal with the, and these are their words-
但问题是：你如何处理，这是他们的话——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
soul-crushing, anti-creative aspects of the entertainment industry and hold on to that sense of creativity and love for the work?
娱乐业中那些令人心碎、反创意的方面，并坚持这种创造力和对工作的热爱？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I'm just focused on the work.
我只是专注于工作。
I don't think of myself as part of the entertainment industrial complex.
我不认为自己是娱乐产业综合体的一部分。
I just make the things I make, and then there are other people who are good at figuring out how to sell them or get them into stores or get them onto services.
我只是制作我制作的东西，然后其他人擅长弄清楚如何出售它们或将它们放入商店或将它们提供给服务。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you have a process of capturing ideas?
你有捕捉想法的过程吗？
Do you write them down?
你把它们写下来吗？
And the reason this question came up so many times, I think, is that a lot of people feel like they get great ideas right upon waking or while driving or in the shower at random times, and they were wondering whether or not you have any way of collecting and curating your ideas prior to embarking on, quote unquote, "a project."
我认为，这个问题出现如此多次的原因是，很多人觉得他们在醒来、开车或洗澡时突然想到了很棒的想法，他们想知道在开始“一个项目”之前，你是否有办法收集和策划你的想法。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I make notes in my phone.
我用手机做笔记。
I do it all the time.
我一直这样做。
I don't have a great way of doing it, and sometimes I'll make a note and then come back to it later and have no idea what it means.
我没有一个很好的方法来做到这一点，有时我会做一个笔记，然后稍后再看，但不知道它意味着什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you make those notes by writing or by voice memo?
您是通过书写还是语音备忘录来记笔记？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Writing.
写作。
That said, voice memo might be something worth trying.
也就是说，语音备忘录可能是值得尝试的东西。
I've never tried that.
我从来没有尝试过。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How do you view money in relationship to your work?
您如何看待金钱与工作的关系？
Meaning, how do you place it in the constellation of things related to a project?
意思是，您如何将其放置在与项目相关的事物群中？
You mentioned earlier you let other people do the negotiations, but money is just another form of energy.
您之前提到您让其他人进行谈判，但金钱只是另一种形式的能量。
How do you place it in the contour of what you do?
您如何将其置于您所做工作的轮廓中？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I try not to think of it at all.
我尽量不去想它。
And because I come from a punk rock background, which was like a do-it-yourself background, it was always more about the idea and the execution of the idea with whatever you could use to do it.
因为我来自朋克摇滚背景，这就像一个自己动手的背景，所以它总是更多地关于想法和想法的执行以及你可以用来实现它的任何东西。
So if I didn't have enough to go to a professional recording studio, then I would find a friend who had a home recording studio and record or whatever it was, or borrowing a drum machine before I had a drum machine.
所以如果我没有足够的钱去专业录音室，那么我会找一个有家庭录音室和录音或其他什么的朋友，或者在我拥有鼓机之前借用鼓机。
I would always find ways to make the things I wanted to make.
我总是会找到方法来制作我想做的东西。
And I can't remember a time where a financial boundary got in the way of making something.
我不记得有哪一次财务界限阻碍了我的创作。
And I see it happening a lot around me, and I think some people look at it as the money is what allows it to happen.
我看到这种情况在我周围发生了很多，我认为有些人认为这是因为金钱允许它发生。
And I think I just see it as the idea is what allows it to happen, and then the ingenuity is figuring out how to do it by any means necessary.
我认为我只是将其视为允许其发生的想法，然后独创性在于找出如何通过任何必要的手段来做到这一点。
Just got to make it.
一定要成功。
Whatever that version is.
不管那个版本是什么。
It may not be the dream version, but whatever version you can execute is the one for you to make.
它可能不是梦想的版本，但无论您可以执行什么版本，都是您可以制作的版本。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I can attest to the fact that I launched my podcast in my closet in Topanga Canyon.
我可以证明我在托潘加峡谷的衣柜里推出了我的播客。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which felt totally natural because I also come from the skateboarding, punk rock thing where it wouldn't ever occur to me to get a professional studio built like we're in now.
这感觉很自然，因为我也来自滑板、朋克摇滚，我从来没有想过要建立一个像我们现在这样的专业工作室。
We had this one built for us.
我们为我们建造了这个。
But at the time, of course, you use a closet because you just need a black backdrop and, I think starting from there makes so much sense.
但当时，当然，你使用壁橱，因为你只需要一个黑色背景，我认为从那里开始很有意义。
And you also realize in the minimalist approach, anything added is just something added.
而且您还会意识到，在极简主义方法中，添加的任何内容都只是添加的内容。
So you don't really know what you need if you start with a lot of stuff around you.
因此，如果您从周围有很多东西开始，您并不真正知道自己需要什么。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
It can just be a distraction.
它可能只是一种干扰。
I'm friends with Darren Aronofsky, who's a great director, and his first movie was called "Pi," and he made it for practically no money, and it was really well-loved.
我是达伦·阿罗诺夫斯基的朋友，他是一位伟大的导演，他的第一部电影叫做《Pi》，他几乎没有花钱就拍了这部电影，而且非常受欢迎。
And then the next movie he made was also wildly successful, and he made it for very little money.
然后他制作的下一部电影也非常成功，而且他只花了很少的钱。
And then he made this huge $100 million movie, and it turned out not to be a success, that movie.
然后他拍了这部耗资一亿美元的巨制电影，结果这部电影并不成功。
And it was a case of where having more money didn't help him tell a story.
在这个例子中，拥有更多的钱并不能帮助他讲故事。
It's just one particular case.
这只是一个特殊案例。
And it's no rule to follow.
而且这没有什么规则可循。
But there is something about making the version that you can make with the means that you have that adds something real to the project that may be better than the one that has a lot of money thrown at it.
但是，你可以用现有的手段制作一个版本，为项目添加一些真实的东西，这可能比投入大量资金的版本更好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm letting that sink in around a lot of online tutorials for science have a lot of visuals.
我让这一点深入到许多有大量视觉效果的在线科学教程中。
But we knew we wanted to do YouTube, but also just pure audio, and there's nothing more frustrating than somebody talking about something or somebody that you can't see because you're just listening to it.
但我们知道我们想做 YouTube，但也只是纯粹的音频，没有什么比有人在谈论某事或某人而你只是在听而看不到更令人沮丧的了。
And the visuals were really expensive to do right.
要想做好视觉效果真的很昂贵。
And in the end, I firmly believe in the classroom as well as via podcasting, if people can hear something clearly enough and create an image in their own mind of how they would visualize it, then it's in there for good.
最后，我坚信在课堂上以及通过播客，如果人们能够足够清楚地听到某些内容并在自己的脑海中创建一个他们将如何可视化它的图像，那么它就会永远存在。
Whereas just having people look at a slide with a bunch of beautiful illustrations on it, that does nothing for retention of material.
虽然只是让人们看一张上面有一堆漂亮插图的幻灯片，但这对保留材料没有任何帮助。
So I think the minimalist approach, I think sometimes is really the best one.
所以我认为极简主义方法有时确实是最好的方法。
Maybe it's always the best one because it forces the better solution.
也许它总是最好的，因为它迫使更好的解决方案。
In any case, I do realize I editorialized there, folks.
无论如何，我确实意识到我在那里发表了社论，伙计们。
I entered the answering portion of the, not just the question-asking portion.
我进入的是回答部分，而不仅仅是提问部分。
Have you ever felt that something was too obscure for mainstream audience appeal to the point where you did not release it?
您是否曾经觉得某些东西太晦涩难懂，无法吸引主流观众，以至于您没有发布它？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Never.
从来没有。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Tell us more.
告诉我们更多信息。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
If I like something, someone else, maybe they'll like it.
如果我喜欢某样东西，其他人也许也会喜欢。
I don't know.
我不知道。
How can I judge?
我该如何判断？
I've been told with every new thing that I've done, it's a terrible idea and it won't work, every single time.
我所做的每一件新事情都被告知，这是一个糟糕的主意，而且每次都行不通。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Every single time.
每一次。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Geto Boys, LL Cool J, Beastie Boys, Slayer, Adele.
Geto Boys、LL Cool J、Beastie Boys、Slayer、Adele。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Every one of them.
他们每一个人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Eminem.
阿姆。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Every one of them.
他们每一个人。
Every time when I went from producing rap records to producing Slayer, "You can't do that.
每次当我从制作说唱唱片转向制作 Slayer 时，“你不能这样做。
You're a rap producer.
你是一名说唱制作人。
It's going to be terrible.
这将是非常可怕的。
Don't do it." Or then Johnny Cash, "You can't do that.
别这么做。”或者约翰尼·卡什说：“你不能那样做。
You're a metal rap producer.
你是一位金属说唱制作人。
You can't do that.
你不能那样做。
It's going to be terrible, don't do it." Every single time.
这会很可怕，不要这样做。”每一次。
Still to this day.
直到今天仍然如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I was so excited when you launched Tetragrammaton, and it's going so well.
当你们推出 Tetragrammaton 时，我非常兴奋，而且进展顺利。
I listen to every episode.
我每一集都会听。
I love the interviews.
我喜欢采访。
I've been fortunate to be on there twice.
我有幸去过那里两次。
I think the second one still hasn't been released yet, but I mention Tetragrammaton because it just feels so you.
我认为第二个还没有发布，但我提到 Tetragrammaton 因为它感觉很适合你。
The ad reads, which I talked about it during my intro, but the ad reads are amazing.
我在介绍中谈到了广告内容，但广告内容令人惊叹。
I listen to the ad reads over and over again because they're so clever, and they put me in a state.
我一遍又一遍地听广告，因为它们太聪明了，它们让我陷入了一种状态。
I feel like I'm watching, like I'm transported to as if I was born in the 1940s and I'm listening to television for the first time.
我感觉自己正在看电视，仿佛自己仿佛出生在 20 世纪 40 年代，第一次听电视。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's really something there.
那里确实有东西。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
It came out of solving a problem.
它是为了解决一个问题而产生的。
The problem was when I decided to do the podcast, I'd even recorded the first several episodes.
问题是当我决定做播客时，我什至已经录制了前几集。
A friend of mine said, "Well, if you want to have ads on the show to support being able to do the show, then you're going to have to read the ads." And I said, "I don't really feel comfortable reading ads.
我的一个朋友说：“好吧，如果你想在节目中投放广告来支持能够进行节目，那么你就必须阅读广告。”我说：“我看广告不太舒服。
I don't think that's something I can do well." I said, "I'm cool with the idea of only advertising products I believe in or that I use, because if I get to essentially promote something, I'll do that with things that I use, but I don't feel comfortable reading it." And he's like, "Well, you have to.
我不认为这是我能做好的事情。”我说，“我对只为我相信或我使用的产品做广告的想法很满意，因为如果我要本质上推销某样东西，我会用我使用的东西来做，但我读起来感觉不舒服。”他说：“好吧，你必须这么做。
It's going to be expected of you." And it was just an opportunity.
这将是对你的期望。”这只是一个机会。
It was like a, "Okay, I understand it's expected of me.
就像是，“好吧，我明白这是对我的期望。
What can I do that's true to me that adds something?" Instead of it being less than, how can I make it more than?
我能做些什么来增加一些对我来说真实的东西呢？”我怎样才能使它大于而不是小于呢？
And it was just solving this problem of needing a way to have an advertisement that I didn't feel bad about.
它只是解决了这个问题，即需要一种让我不觉得难过的广告的方法。
And then got inspired and had this idea and started making them, and now they're my favorite thing in the podcast.
然后受到启发，有了这个想法并开始制作它们，现在它们是我在播客中最喜欢的东西。
In many podcasts, honestly, when the ads come up, I forward through them as a listener.
老实说，在许多播客中，当广告出现时，我会作为听众转发它们。
On Tetragrammaton, when a commercial comes on, I always listen to them.
在 Tetragrammaton 上，当广告出现时，我总是听他们的。
It's a highlight, and they make me smile.
这是一个亮点，他们让我微笑。
And again, I didn't set out to do that.
再说一次，我并没有打算这样做。
I just was trying to solve a creative problem.
我只是想解决一个创造性的问题。
So sometimes the innovative ideas don't come when you're looking for an innovative idea.
所以有时候，当你在寻找创新想法时，创新想法并不会出现。
It's just there's this slot to fill.
只是有这个空位需要填补。
This is the way it's normally done.
这是通常的做法。
I'm not comfortable doing it the normal way.
我不习惯以正常方式这样做。
How else can we solve this problem?
我们还能怎样解决这个问题呢？
And sometimes it doesn't just solve the problem, but it becomes an actual feature.
有时它不仅解决了问题，而且成为了一个实际的功能。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, there's something about that solution-seeking that is part of or at least is aligned with the creative process, right?
是的，寻求解决方案是创意过程的一部分，或者至少是与创意过程保持一致的，对吧？
Yeah, the ads are extraordinary.
是的，广告很棒。
We were listening to them in Italy.
我们在意大利听他们讲话。
I'm like, "Play that one again." I love the way the guy who says the word shilajit.
我想，“再玩一遍。”我喜欢那个说“shilajit”这个词的人。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He says shilajit or something like.
他说喜来芝或类似的东西。
But I can't do the accent, folks.
但我不会说口音，伙计们。
Don't take what I just said as evidence of what the ads are like.
不要把我刚才说的话当作广告的证据。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I think he had an Australian accent, that guy.
我认为他有澳大利亚口音，那个家伙。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Shilajit.
希拉吉特。
And the chimes in the background.
还有背景中的铃声。
It's so good.
太好了。
You don't drink alcohol, correct?
你不喝酒，对吗？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Correct.
正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Have you ever had a sip of alcohol?
你喝过酒吗？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I drank alcohol once as part of a class experiment and had to mix all these drinks and taste them, and it was a terrible experience.
作为课堂实验的一部分，我喝了一次酒，不得不将所有这些饮料混合并品尝，这是一次可怕的经历。
But it was a requirement in the class I was taking.
但这是我所参加的课程的要求。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow, school was different back then.
哇，那时候的学校不一样。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or that school was different.
或者说那所学校不一样。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think school was different.
我觉得学校不一样。
We used to prick our fingers and do our own blood tests in science class.
我们过去常常在科学课上刺破手指并自己进行血液检查。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I remember that.
我记得。
I never did it because I was always needle phobic, but that was definitely something that was asked of us to do.
我从来没有这样做过，因为我总是有针头恐惧症，但这绝对是我们要求做的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, you could never get away with that now-
是的，你现在永远无法逃脱——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in a high school classroom.
在高中的教室里。
The reason I ask about alcohol is, first of all, I'm not the anti-alcohol crusader, even though I did an episode about alcohol, which discouraged many people from drinking more of it.
我之所以问关于酒精的问题，首先，我不是反酒精斗士，尽管我做了一个关于酒精的剧集，这阻止了很多人喝更多的酒。
But I think for a lot of people, the idea of smoking cannabis, drinking alcohol, for them, in their mind, is synonymous with the creative process, especially music, for a lot of reasons that people can imagine.
但我认为对很多人来说，吸大麻、喝酒的想法在他们心目中是创作过程的代名词，尤其是音乐，原因有很多人们可以想象的。
I think it's remarkable and impressive and worth spending a few moments with you sharing with us how is it that you were around all of that?
我认为这是非凡的、令人印象深刻的，值得花一些时间与您分享，与我们分享您在这一切周围的感觉如何？
You're clearly part of the crew, meaning you're part of the creative process.
您显然是团队的一员，这意味着您是创作过程的一部分。
Presumably, people offered you alcohol, drugs, et cetera, but something in you seems resistant to any kind of peer pressure.
据推测，人们给你提供了酒精、毒品等，但你身上的某些东西似乎能够抵抗任何形式的同伴压力。
And as an adult, that's impressive, but to think when I was 15, 16, sure, I sort of regret it.
作为一个成年人，这令人印象深刻，但想想我 15、16 岁时，当然，我有点后悔。
But yeah, I drank, I had my experiences and then eventually stopped that.
但是，是的，我喝酒了，我有过我的经历，然后最终停止了。
But most people are not good at not drinking if they don't want to drink, ever, or just once from a high school class.
但大多数人如果从来都不想喝酒，或者只在高中课堂上喝过一次，那么他们就不擅长不喝酒。
What was the internal narrative in your mind when that stuff was around, and what allowed you to just say, "No, I belong here, but I'm not going to do that"?
当这些东西出现时，你内心的想法是什么？是什么让你能够说：“不，我属于这里，但我不会那样做”？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
It just was never interesting to me, and I think maybe it had to do with being an only child.
这对我来说从来都没有兴趣，我想这可能与我是独生子有关。
Being an only child, I think, made me less resistant to peer pressure because I felt more confident in who I was, whatever that was, just from being with myself and not with other siblings.
我认为，作为独生子女，我对同侪压力的抵抗力降低了，因为我对自己是谁（无论是什么）感到更加自信，仅仅因为与自己在一起，而不是与其他兄弟姐妹在一起。
I'm guessing.
我猜。
I don't know if that's right, but that's my first inclination is to guess that would be the case.
我不知道这是否正确，但我的第一反应是猜测情况确实如此。
Also, I've always known what I like and known what I don't like and know there are things I want to try, there are things I don't want to try, and I feel very good about not doing something I don't want to do.
而且，我一直知道我喜欢什么，知道我不喜欢什么，知道有些事情我想尝试，有些事情我不想尝试，而且我对不做我不想做的事情感觉很好。
I feel great about it.
我对此感觉很棒。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Have you ever been curious about psychedelics, given that-
你是否曾对迷幻药感到好奇，因为——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I'm very curious.
我很好奇。
I've never done it, but I'm very curious, and I've been curious for a long time.
我没做过，但是我很好奇，而且好奇很久了。
There may be a time when I experiment.
也许有一天我会尝试。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, there are two psychedelics in particular that I find really interesting.
是的，有两种迷幻药我觉得特别有趣。
One is macrodose psilocybin, which I've done as part of a clinical trial.
一种是大剂量裸盖菇素，这是我作为临床试验的一部分进行的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And my understanding is it reveals, in a very intense and experiential way, some component of the unconscious mind.
我的理解是，它以一种非常强烈和体验的方式揭示了潜意识的某些组成部分。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it allows for plasticity and rewiring of the brain that's permanent if you come to some understanding through the so-called integration.
如果你通过所谓的整合获得了一些理解，那么它允许大脑的可塑性和重新布线，这是永久性的。
It's not without its risks.
这并非没有风险。
The other one that's really interesting that I've been hearing more about, and I have not tried, and it carries some dangers, is ibogaine, which is 22 hours long.
另一种非常有趣的药物是伊博加因，我一直听说过，但我没有尝试过，它也有一些危险，它的作用时间为 22 小时。
And people experience the world as normal with their eyes open, but when they close their eyes, they get a high-resolution, movie-like version of prior experiences, but they have agency within those movies.
人们睁着眼睛正常地体验世界，但当他们闭上眼睛时，他们会得到以前经历的高分辨率、类似电影的版本，但他们在这些电影中拥有代理权。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They can reshape their reactions.
他们可以重塑自己的反应。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
That's wild.
那太疯狂了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is being used to treat PTSD in veterans to great success.
这被用于治疗退伍军人的创伤后应激障碍（PTSD），取得了巨大成功。
It has some cardiac risk associated with it, and it's not legal in the United States, and it's not being explored in clinical trials yet.
它具有一定的心脏风险，而且在美国不合法，而且尚未在临床试验中进行探索。
But the state of Kentucky recently took, I think it's $40 million from the OxyContin settlement and is putting it to ibogaine research.
但肯塔基州最近从奥施康定和解协议中拿出了 4000 万美元，并将其用于伊博加因研究。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Interesting.
有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
So those are the two that kind of spring to mind, kind of the classic psychedelic experience.
这就是我脑海中浮现的两种感觉，一种经典的迷幻体验。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I've also heard good things about MDMA, but I've never done that.
我也听说过有关 MDMA 的好消息，但我从未这样做过。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I have done MDMA, again, as part of a therapeutic trial.
是的，作为治疗试验的一部分，我再次服用了摇头丸。
It's a strong empathogen.
这是一种很强的共情剂。
The danger with MDMA, I think, is that if you don't stay in the eye mask or if you're listening to music or something, you can easily get anchored to some external cue and see a plant and be like, "I love plants," and spend the whole four to six hours thinking about your love of plants, which might be valuable, but I think the strong introspective work is best done with a therapist there, and you in the eye mask, and occasionally leaving the eye mask and writing things down.
我认为，摇头丸的危险在于，如果你不戴上眼罩，或者听音乐什么的，你很容易就会被一些外部暗示所束缚，看到一株植物，然后说，“我喜欢植物”，然后花上四到六个小时思考你对植物的热爱，这可能很有价值，但我认为，强烈的内省工作最好是由治疗师在场，你戴上眼罩，偶尔离开眼罩，写下东西。
So, the reason I put that detail in there is that the psychedelic experience is very different with eyes open versus in the eye mask, with a clinician there versus recreationally.
所以，我把这个细节放在那里的原因是，睁着眼睛与戴上眼罩、有临床医生在场与休闲时的迷幻体验是非常不同的。
And it's not just about dangers versus safety.
这不仅仅是危险与安全的问题。
It's a big investment, and what one stands to get out of it, I think, depends on how much introspection you're willing to do.
这是一项巨大的投资，我认为，一个人能从中得到什么，取决于你愿意进行多少反省。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We won't be doing it this afternoon.
今天下午我们不会这样做。
There were at least 1,000 questions about attention deficit and neuroticism, people who feel like they can't organize themselves.
至少有 1,000 个关于注意力缺陷和神经质的问题，这些人感觉自己无法组织自己。
And I thought a lot about these questions and tried to distill them into a single question, and eventually I did, and it's this.
我对这些问题思考了很多，并试图将它们提炼成一个问题，最终我做到了，就是这个。
For many people, they associate the creative process with disorganization.
对于许多人来说，他们将创作过程与混乱联系在一起。
I think what's so striking about you is that you embody both the creative process but also a strong sense of organization around it.
我认为你最引人注目的地方在于，你既体现了创作过程，又体现了围绕它的强烈组织意识。
Like nothing seems harebrained or random or haphazard about anything that you do.
你做的任何事情都不会显得轻率、随机或随意。
And yet, for a lot of people who call themselves creatives, they'll say, "I'm a creative," this, that, and you look at the space they're in and it's like chaos.
然而，对于很多自称创意人士的人来说，他们会说，“我是一个创意人士”，这个，那个，你看看他们所处的空间，就像一片混乱。
Or their life is kind of chaos.
或者他们的生活有点混乱。
Not all of them, but is what I'm saying making sense?
虽然不是全部，但是我说的有道理吗？
Because I think why people orient toward you and one of the reasons for your success with the creative process is that you're extremely organized, but not to the point of being rigid.
因为我认为为什么人们会倾向于你，以及你在创作过程中取得成功的原因之一是你非常有组织性，但又没有达到僵化的程度。
Be willing to embellish a little bit on that perception, whether or not it's accurate, inaccurate?
愿意对这种看法进行一点修饰，无论它是否准确？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Well, I would say there's a part in the process early on where it is before it can get organized, where it's free and it's playful, and it can be chaotic.
嗯，我想说的是，在这个过程的早期阶段，在它能够被组织起来之前，它是自由的、有趣的，但也可能是混乱的。
It's a byproduct of whatever's happening.
这是正在发生的事情的副产品。
It's good because it's chaotic, and it just happens to be sometimes chaotic in that experiment in the beginning, where we're really playing with this idea of having fun and creating stimulation and seeing how it makes us feel.
这很好，因为它很混乱，而且在一开始的实验中有时会很混乱，我们真正在玩这个想法，享受乐趣，创造刺激，看看它给我们带来什么感觉。
And we could try wacky things to get there.
我们可以尝试一些古怪的事情来实现这一目标。
But then when it happens, when you get that feeling of like, "Oh, this is interesting.
但当它发生时，当你有这样的感觉时，“哦，这很有趣。
I haven't seen this before," then it gets more controlled.
我以前没见过这个，”然后它就变得更加受控。
But it starts in a very free place, and I don't know if I would really use the word chaotic, but it could be.
但它是从一个非常自由的地方开始的，我不知道我是否真的会使用“混乱”这个词，但它可能是。
It certainly wouldn't be wrong.
肯定不会错的。
I would say more free would be the word.
我想说的是更自由这个词。
Free, like no expectation and total immersion in an improvisation that you're participating in that can go wherever it wants to go.
免费，就像没有任何期望，完全沉浸在您所参与的即兴创作中，可以去任何它想去的地方。
And you're cool allowing it to go wherever it wants to go.
你可以让它去任何它想去的地方，这很酷。
And sometimes when it goes somewhere dangerous, that's when it gets interesting.
有时当它到达危险的地方时，它就会变得有趣。
So I can understand that danger aspect.
所以我可以理解危险的一面。
Maybe that's why I like pro wrestling.
也许这就是我喜欢职业摔跤的原因。
I don't know.
我不知道。
But there's something about when you get to these edges where this is not for everybody, it can get very interesting.
但当你到达这些边缘时，这并不适合所有人，它会变得非常有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Speaking of stuff that's not for everybody and that to some people might have been shocking, I remember hearing Geto Boys for the first time and like, whoa, they're taking certain things pretty far.
说到那些并不适合所有人的东西，对某些人来说可能会令人震惊，我记得第一次听到 Geto Boys 的时候，我就想，哇，他们在某些事情上做得很远。
When you're working with an artist and they venture out into that place where things are maybe even a little shocking, what is that feeling for you internally?
当你和一位艺术家合作时，他们冒险进入一个地方，那里的事情甚至可能有点令人震惊，你内心有什么感觉？
How do you distinguish between shock value for its own sake and something that's really opening up a new creative avenue or insight?
您如何区分其本身的震撼价值和真正开辟新的创意途径或见解的东西？
Do you recall the first time you heard Bushwick and those guys do their thing?
您还记得第一次听到布什威克和那些家伙做他们的事情时的情景吗？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What was your internal narrative?
你的内心故事是什么？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I can't believe it.
我简直不敢相信。
I can't believe what they're saying.
我简直不敢相信他们说的话。
It's really pushing the boundaries of what anyone has said in this music before.
它确实突破了之前任何人在音乐中所说的界限。
It had switched because originally in rap, there was a lot of boasting about themselves, bragging.
它已经改变了，因为最初在说唱中，有很多自我吹嘘、吹牛的内容。
And then we got to The Message happened, and there was some social commentary.
然后我们就看到了消息的发生，并且出现了一些社会评论。
And then there was gangsta rap, and then the Geto Boys took a version of gangsta rap and turned it into horror rap, which was much more graphic than gangsta rap.
然后是黑帮说唱，然后 Geto Boys 采用了黑帮说唱的一个版本，并将其变成了恐怖说唱，这比黑帮说唱更加生动。
Gangsta rap was talking about a real-life situation, whereas the Geto Boys took it into horror movie territory.
Gangsta 说唱谈论的是现实生活中的情况，而 Geto Boys 将其带入了恐怖电影领域。
It was more fantasy.
这更多的是幻想。
But it seemed really scary at the time in the way that you're scared at a great horror movie.
但当时看起来真的很可怕，就像你在看一部伟大的恐怖电影一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you like horror movies?
你喜欢恐怖片吗？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I don't.
我不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you like monster movies where you know it's not real, like it's impossible, as opposed to horror movies where it's people getting killed by another human, like stuff that could happen in the world versus monsters and zombies and that kind of thing?
你喜欢怪物电影吗？你知道它不是真实的，就像它是不可能的，而不是人们被另一个人杀死的恐怖电影，比如世界上可能发生的事情与怪物和僵尸之类的事情？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I don't think I really like either of them very much.
我不认为我真的很喜欢他们中的任何一个。
I like things that make me feel good.
我喜欢那些让我感觉良好的事情。
I don't really like adrenaline.
我真的不喜欢肾上腺素。
I don't like to be excited.
我不喜欢激动。
For some reason, in audio, I like something that makes me excited, but in visuals, I tend not to like things that make me excited.
出于某种原因，在音频中，我喜欢让我兴奋的东西，但在视觉上，我往往不喜欢让我兴奋的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Interesting.
有趣的。
And you're able to clean yourself of experiences easily, right?
而且你能够轻松地清除自己的经历，对吧？
It seems.
它似乎。
If you listen to something that's really shocking, you don't carry that shock to your sleep or to the next day.
如果你听的东西确实令人震惊，你就不会在睡觉时或第二天把这种震惊带入梦中。
It doesn't trouble you.
这不打扰你。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
But a movie can impact me.
但一部电影可以影响我。
There was a movie called "Melancholia" that I saw years ago, Lars von Trier movie, and I thought it was a very beautiful movie, but I was in a bad mood, I would say, for three months from the time I watched that movie on.
我几年前看过一部叫《忧郁症》的电影，拉斯·冯·特里尔的电影，我觉得这是一部非常漂亮的电影，但我想说，从我看那部电影开始的三个月里，我的心情很糟糕。
It just did something to my brain that didn't feel good, and I couldn't snap out of it.
它只是让我的大脑感觉不太舒服，而且我无法摆脱它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's so interesting.
太有趣了。
There are a few movies that have done that to me.
有几部电影对我来说就是这样。
The movie "Blue Valentine," which has done really well, which is with Ryan Gosling and someone else where it's a relationship.
电影《蓝色情人节》表现非常好，与瑞恩·高斯林和其他人有关系。
I won't explain what happens in the arc of the relationship, but the movie haunted me.
我不会解释这段关系中发生的事情，但这部电影困扰着我。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's one scene where he's wearing a Misfits shirt, and I was like, "Oh, I like this." And that's a particularly good scene where he's singing to her, but the rest of the movie just brings about such feelings of just how hard life can be sometimes and how misguided people can be in relationship.
有一个场景，他穿着一件 Misfits 衬衫，我当时想，“哦，我喜欢这个。”这是一个特别好的场景，他给她唱歌，但电影的其余部分只是带来了这样的感觉：生活有时是多么艰难，人们在关系中是多么容易被误导。
And it's interesting how movies can just embed in us.
有趣的是，电影如何能够融入我们的内心。
It's not pleasant.
这并不令人愉快。
I don't want to talk about it anymore.
我不想再谈论它了。
There were a number of questions asking about how you consume information in the world related to what's happening in the world.
有很多问题询问您如何消费与世界上正在发生的事情相关的信息。
Where do you get your news from?
你从哪里得到消息？
You and I talk about this a lot.
你和我经常谈论这个问题。
How do we know what to trust these days?
如今我们如何知道该相信什么？
Should we have ever trusted the news, or is it less trustworthy now?
我们是否应该相信这个消息，或者现在它不那么值得信赖了？
Where do you get your information about what's happening in the world and stay abreast of world affairs.
您从哪里获取有关世界上正在发生的事情的信息并及时了解世界事务。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Honestly, I don't feel like I know anything about it.
老实说，我觉得我对此一无所知。
I tend to look at it all like wrestling.
我倾向于将这一切视为摔跤。
So if the story's good, I might be more interested in the story, but I still don't hold much belief that that story is true.
所以如果这个故事很好，我可能会对这个故事更感兴趣，但我仍然不太相信这个故事是真的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I don't know what to believe anymore.
是的，我不知道该相信什么了。
I was asked to comment on a particularly well-known person, who's not considered very savory, by a couple news avenues in the last couple of years, and I don't know how people had in mind that I would have knowledge about this person.
过去几年里，一些新闻渠道要求我对一个特别出名的人发表评论，但他被认为不太有品味，我不知道人们是如何想到我会了解这个人的。
And I gave zero information to these news outlets, and nonetheless, they didn't publish quotes from me, but they published things that I know to be completely false, and they know to be completely false.
我向这些新闻媒体提供了零信息，尽管如此，他们没有发表我的言论，但他们发表了我知道完全错误的东西，他们也知道完全错误。
So I was just struck by the fact that, like in scientific publishing, you'd lose your job forever.
所以我对这样一个事实感到震惊，就像在科学出版领域一样，你会永远失去工作。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Well, at one point in time, you would've lost your job.
好吧，在某一时刻，你可能会失业。
Now, I don't know if that's true.
现在，我不知道这是不是真的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
If you lose your job, because we see it happening a lot.
如果你失业了，因为我们看到这种情况经常发生。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
It's wild.
它很狂野。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Have you ever read anything about you that's not true?
您是否读过任何关于您的不真实信息？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Okay, so based on that-
好吧，基于此——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
Some of it is playful stuff, like on Reddit.
其中一些是有趣的东西，比如在 Reddit 上。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And now they have a little flag that they can put as comedic or something.
现在他们有了一个小旗帜，可以将其作为喜剧或其他东西。
But, oh, sure, things, not just taken out of context, but things like completely wrong.
但是，哦，当然，事情不仅断章取义，而且完全错误。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't even know where people get this stuff from.
我什至不知道人们从哪里得到这些东西。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I keep waiting for the thing that I'm going to see that says that I'm dead.
我一直在等待我将要看到的那件事，那件事表明我已经死了。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That'll be the moment.
那就是那一刻。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
So based on that experience, why would you believe anything you read about anyone else?
那么根据这次经历，你为什么会相信你读到的关于其他人的任何事情呢？
You get to see firsthand that they are just stories, just not true.
你会亲眼看到它们只是故事，而不是真实的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And presumably, you've seen things written about you that are not true.
想必，您所看到的有关您的报道并不真实。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All right.
好吧。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
And artists I know, friends of mine, they write things about them, I know it's not true.
我认识的艺术家，我的朋友，他们写了一些关于他们的东西，我知道这不是真的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wild.
狂野。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What do you think about the state of play, and the experience of being a parent and having a young child, has that allowed you more opportunities for play and to see the world through childlike lenses in a greater capacity, or is it just separate from your creative process?
你如何看待游戏的状态，以及作为父母和养育小孩的经历，这是否让你有更多的游戏机会，并以更大的能力通过孩子般的镜头看世界，或者它只是与你的创作过程分开？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I would say I'm fairly childlike all the time.
我想说我一直都很孩子气。
I try to stay as open.
我尽量保持开放的态度。
The beauty of childhood is that you haven't been indoctrinated yet.
童年的美妙之处就在于你还没有被灌输。
So you see things and you have wonder about them.
所以你看到事物并且对它们感到好奇。
And it's a great feeling, that feeling of wonder.
这是一种很棒的感觉，那种奇妙的感觉。
I'll tell you a story.
我给你讲一个故事。
This is a true story.
这是一个真实的故事。
My friend Owen came over one night in the middle of the night, and he had just seen luminescence in the water for the first time.
我的朋友欧文有一天半夜过来，他第一次看到水中发光。
And he didn't know what it was and thought he was having a mystical experience.
他不知道那是什么，并认为他正在经历一种神秘的体验。
And he was so excited.
他非常兴奋。
He's like, "You won't believe what happened.
他就像是，“你不会相信发生了什么。
The waves were like there was light everywhere.
波涛汹涌，仿佛到处都是光。
It was so cool.
太酷了。
I'd never saw anything like it." And I said, "Oh, yeah, that's luminescence." And I explained what it was, and it destroyed the magic for him.
我从来没有见过这样的东西。”我说：“哦，是的，那是发光。”我解释了那是什么，这摧毁了他的魔力。
He was really having a childlike, magical experience, and I destroyed it by telling him the science behind it.
他真的有一种孩子般的、神奇的经历，而我通过告诉他背后的科学来摧毁它。
I try to live in a world where I can experience what he experiences, and I don't let the story ruin what's-- I allow the possibility to go past what I'm told the story is, but that things can be even wilder than the rational explanation.
我试着生活在一个我可以体验他所经历的世界里，我不会让故事毁掉事实——我允许超越我被告知的故事的可能性，但事情可能比理性的解释更疯狂。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For me, learning the reductionist science behind something, to me, adds depth and beauty.
对我来说，学习某件事背后的还原论科学，对我来说，增加了深度和美感。
But then again, I realize I've been indoctrinated into the field of science.
但话又说回来，我意识到我已经被灌输到科学领域了。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
The matrix, they call it.
他们称之为矩阵。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The matrix.
矩阵。
This is one I didn't understand, but I'm going to assume that you understand because it has to do with people you've worked with.
这是我不明白的，但我假设你明白，因为这与你共事过的人有关。
If Rick had casually dropped that the Ramones named themselves after the fake last name Paul McCartney used to check into hotels during Beatlemania, would that have blown Andrew's mind?
如果里克不经意地透露雷蒙斯乐队是以保罗·麦卡特尼在披头士狂热期间入住酒店的假姓氏命名的，这会让安德鲁大吃一惊吗？
It's a kind of weird question.
这是一个奇怪的问题。
I guess the question is, is it true that the Ramones named themselves after the fake last name that Paul McCartney used to check into hotels during Beatlemania?
我想问题是，雷蒙斯乐队真的是以保罗·麦卡特尼在披头士狂热期间入住酒店时使用的假姓氏命名的吗？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I don't know if that's a true story.
我不知道这是否是一个真实的故事。
I do know that Paul McCartney used the name Paul Ramone when checking into hotels, but I don't know if that's where the Ramones got the name.
我确实知道保罗·麦卡特尼 (Paul McCartney) 在入住酒店时使用了保罗·雷蒙 (Paul Ramone) 这个名字，但我不知道雷蒙斯 (Ramones) 乐队是否就是由此得名。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it.
明白了。
And here is how rumors turn into, quote-unquote, "facts" on the internet.
这就是谣言如何在互联网上变成“事实”的过程。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So we have to be careful.
所以我们必须要小心。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
And also, maybe the Paul Ramone story is not true either, but that's the story I've heard.
而且，也许保罗·雷蒙的故事也不是真的，但这是我听到的故事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
That reminds me, and I think this is an important case in point, that there's a what I consider a very famous photograph of you, Johnny Cash, Joe Strummer, and Henry Rollins.
这提醒了我，我认为这是一个重要的例子，有一张我认为非常著名的你们、约翰尼·卡什、乔·斯特鲁默和亨利·罗林斯的照片。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're wearing a Dead Kennedy shirt.
你穿着一件死去的肯尼迪衬衫。
The four of you are facing one another.
你们四个人面对面。
And I love that photograph because of who's in it.
我喜欢那张照片，因为里面有谁。
And I remember hearing a rare track from Strummer and the Mescaleros called "On the Road to Rock and Roll." And then, for some reason, probably because my phone is tapped into my brain, I was served up a video on social media of Henry Rollins telling the story of that gathering of the four of you, where Rollins is describing the story of Joe Strummer leaning into ...
我记得听过 Strummer 和 Mescaleros 乐队创作的一首罕见的歌曲，名为“On the Road to Rock and Roll”。然后，出于某种原因，可能是因为我的手机被窃听了我的大脑，我在社交媒体上看到了一段亨利·罗林斯的视频，讲述了你们四个人聚会的故事，其中罗林斯描述了乔·斯特鲁默的故事......
Johnny Cash and saying, "Hey, I wrote a song for you." It goes, "On the road to rock." Okay.
约翰尼·卡什说：“嘿，我为你写了一首歌。”上面写着“在摇滚之路上”。好的。
And I remember coming to you and saying, "Rick, guess what?
我记得我来找你说：“瑞克，你猜怎么着？
Remember that photo?" You're like, "I remember the photo." I said, "Yeah, Rollins has the story of what was happening in that moment," and I was so excited.
还记得那张照片吗？”你会说，“我记得那张照片。”我说，“是的，罗林斯讲述了那一刻发生的事情”，我非常兴奋。
And you said , "Yeah, I don't remember that.
你说：“是的，我不记得了。
It might be true."
这可能是真的。”
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
It might be true.
这可能是真的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it might be entirely made up also.
但它也可能完全是编造的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we're not calling Henry a liar.
我们并不是说亨利是骗子。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
No, no, no.
不，不，不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I believe Henry believes it.
但我相信亨利相信这一点。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I believe Henry remembers that story.
我相信亨利还记得那个故事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
And that was his experience.
这就是他的经历。
That was not my experience, or I don't remember it being my experience, but who knows?
那不是我的经历，或者我不记得这是我的经历，但谁知道呢？
Anything could've been said.
任何事情都可以说。
It's true.
这是真的。
Anything could've been said.
任何事情都可以说。
Like, the fact that I don't remember has as much to do with whatever I was thinking about when that happened, and the story that Henry told had as much to do with what was going on in Henry's head when it happened.
就像，我不记得的事实与事情发生时我正在想的事情有很大关系，而亨利讲述的故事也与事情发生时亨利脑子里发生的事情有很大关系。
We have no idea.
我们不知道。
We have no idea.
我们不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you remember somebody shooting the photograph?
你还记得有人拍摄这张照片吗？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I do not.
我不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'll put a link to that photograph on the internet.
我会将那张照片的链接放在互联网上。
It's a really incredible gathering of folk.
这真是一次令人难以置信的民间聚会。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I've seen the photo, but I don't remember it being shot.
我看过那张照片，但不记得是拍的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm looking for a high-resolution version of that photo.
我正在寻找该照片的高分辨率版本。
If anyone can find me one, I'll be happy to compensate you well.
如果有人能找到我，我很乐意补偿你。
There were a lot of questions about your daily routine.
关于你的日常生活有很多问题。
People love this.
人们喜欢这个。
The morning routine, the daily routine.
早上的例行公事，每天的例行公事。
And while I have to believe that everybody's necessary routine is quite different from the next, if you wouldn't mind just giving us a sense of the first couple of hours of your day, what that typically looks like when you're not traveling and you're settled into a place.
虽然我不得不相信每个人的必要例行公事都与下一个有很大不同，但如果您不介意让我们了解一下您一天中的头几个小时，当您不旅行并安顿在一个地方时通常会是什么样子。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
It's different depending on the place that I'm in.
根据我所在的地方而有所不同。
But typically, it involves waking up, going out into the sun as naked as possible to start the day.
但通常情况下，它包括醒来，尽可能赤身裸体地走到阳光下，开始新的一天。
I try to wake up slowly.
我试着慢慢醒来。
And probably within an hour of that, I'll leave the house and go for as long of a beach walk as possible.
可能在一小时内，我会离开家，尽可能长时间地去海滩散步。
Or if I'm in a place where there's a gym, several days a week I'll go to the gym instead.
或者，如果我所在的地方有健身房，我会每周有几天去健身房。
But I'll do some activity, I would say, about an hour after waking up.
但我会说，醒来后大约一个小时，我会做一些活动。
Sometimes it's an hour and a half, sometimes it's less, depending on the place I'm at.
有时是一个半小时，有时会更短，这取决于我所在的地方。
I also might do stretching before I go on the walk and do just several stretches on yoga mats on the floor, or with foam rollers, or balls, or some different things.
我也可能在散步之前做伸展运动，在地板上的瑜伽垫上、或者用泡沫轴、球或其他一些东西做几次伸展运动。
I don't start my day until those things are out of the way.
直到这些事情都解决掉之后我才会开始新的一天。
I try to avoid any work-related anything.
我尽量避免任何与工作相关的事情。
Now, that said, if a thought comes up that I'm excited about, I'll note it.
现在，也就是说，如果出现一个令我兴奋的想法，我会记下来。
I won't avoid thoughts, but I tend not to engage in any work until probably 11:00.
我不会避免思考，但我倾向于在大约 11:00 之前不从事任何工作。
11:00 a.m.
上午 11:00
would be the soonest, and some days not until 1:00.
最快，有时要等到 1:00。
And then I do focused work until maybe 6:00, and then I spend the rest of the night trying to wind down out of work mode.
然后我会集中精力工作，直到 6:00 左右，然后我用整个晚上的时间尝试从工作模式中放松下来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So 1:00 p.m.
所以下午 1:00
to 6:00 p.m.
至下午 6:00
are really the peak-
真的是巅峰——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Probably
大概
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
quote-unquote "work hours."
引用-取消引用“工作时间”。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Could be 11:00 too.
也可能是 11:00。
Like today, we started here at 11:00, and I felt like I'd be good by 11:00, and I already did my morning walk.
就像今天，我们是11:00开始的，我觉得11:00就可以了，而且我已经晨跑了。
I had the argument on the beach.
我在海滩上发生了争执。
I was in the sun.
我在阳光下。
I was in the hot tub.
我在热水浴缸里。
I had a whole morning already.
我已经有一整个早上了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then what does your evening wind-down look like in terms of the space that you're in, or trying to create, and your internal landscape?
那么，从你所处的空间或试图创造的空间以及你的内部景观来看，你晚上的放松是什么样子的？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Well, it's only red light.
嗯，只是红灯而已。
From the time the sun sets, I'm wearing red glasses.
从太阳落山的时候起，我就戴着红色的眼镜。
I'm in a space with only red light.
我身处一个只有红光的空间。
I'm 99% of the time home with my family, and we talk.
我 99% 的时间都和家人在一起，我们会聊天。
I might watch wrestling or a documentary with red glasses on.
我可能会戴着红色眼镜看摔跤或纪录片。
We eat dinner together, or we eat dinner in shifts, depending on how it's working.
我们一起吃晚饭，或者轮流吃晚饭，这取决于它的运作方式。
But we're all together.
但我们都在一起。
And I find something to occupy my mind that gets me out of the workday.
我找到了一些可以让我摆脱工作日的事情来占据我的注意力。
That said, sometimes the ideas still flow, and I'll note them.
也就是说，有时想法仍然会流动，我会记下它们。
But I avoid any kind of a work phone call or anything that's stimulating or that will get me thinking about it.
但我会避免任何类型的工作电话或任何刺激或让我思考的事情。
I aim for sunset, and then I'm usually in bed by 10:00 and fall asleep within 15 minutes.
我的目标是日落，然后我通常在 10:00 之前上床睡觉，并在 15 分钟内入睡。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Your relationship to light is fascinating.
你与光的关系令人着迷。
The sunlight piece makes a lot of sense and will make sense to the listeners of this podcast.
阳光的片段很有意义，对于这个播客的听众来说也很有意义。
We haven't done too many episodes, but we will do more, that covers the trying to avoid bright light exposure in the evening.
我们还没有做太多的剧集，但我们会做更多，包括尽量避免晚上的强光照射。
You're wearing the red lens glasses now, even though it's the middle of the day.
你现在戴着红色镜片的眼镜，尽管现在是中午。
That's because we've got these bright lights around us, correct?
那是因为我们周围有这些明亮的灯光，对吗？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And have you found that limiting your bright artificial light exposure in the evening has benefited you, and in what ways?
您是否发现晚上限制明亮的人造光照射对您有好处？有哪些好处？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
And once you've done it, once you've changed and avoid looking at screens or my phone turns red at night.
一旦你完成了它，一旦你改变了，避免看屏幕，否则我的手机在晚上会变红。
When I see someone else's phone, if someone comes to visit, and their phone lights up at night, it's blinding And it's so disturbing.
当我看到别人的手机时，如果有人来拜访，而他们的手机在晚上亮起来，那就很刺眼，而且很令人不安。
And for them, that's normal.
对于他们来说，这很正常。
They're in this heightened, blown-out place all the time.
他们一直都在这个高高在上、气势汹汹的地方。
I'm staying at neutral.
我保持中立。
I'm staying at the more natural, how the world would be if man didn't create all of these loud things
我停留在更自然的角度，如果人类没有创造所有这些响亮的东西，世界将会是什么样子
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
...
...
loud devices.
大声的设备。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I've switched my phone, thanks to your input, and we will have released a clip on this by the time this episode airs, on the triple-click approach to the phone that you can put in very easily to allow it to go from regular screen to red screen at night, so that you don't have to go into the settings each time.
感谢您的意见，我已经更换了手机，我们将在本集播出时发布有关此内容的剪辑，介绍手机的三次点击方法，您可以非常轻松地插入该方法，以使其在晚上从常规屏幕变为红屏，这样您就不必每次都进入设置。
You just triple click.
您只需点击三次即可。
We'll provide a link to that explanation.
我们将提供该解释的链接。
And Rick taught me that when I was over in Italy.
当我在意大利结束时，里克告诉了我这一点。
Everyone in his home turned to me and said, "Wait, your phone is so bright.
他家里的每个人都转向我说：“等等，你的手机太亮了。
You got to do the red light thing." I said, "I don't know how." And he taught me that, so it's a very useful trick.
闯红灯的事情你得做。”我说：“我不知道怎么办。”他教了我这一点，所以这是一个非常有用的技巧。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Have you noticed a difference since looking at-
自从看了之后你有没有注意到有什么不同——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Huge positive difference.
巨大的积极差异。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I sleep better.
我睡得更好了。
There are great data now because, of course, I go then find the data that-
现在有很棒的数据，因为，当然，我会找到数据-
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for shift workers, people that have to be up at night working, if they put them under red light, the amount of cortisol at that time is suppressed, which is great, as compared to when they're under bright artificial lights without red lens glasses, or if they're in red lights, it's far more beneficial.
对于轮班工人，晚上必须起床工作的人来说，如果他们把他们放在红灯下，那么当时的皮质醇含量就会受到抑制，这很好，这比他们在没有红镜片眼镜的明亮人造光下，或者如果他们在红灯下，要有益得多。
Less cortisol.
皮质醇减少。
You want cortisol high early in the day.
你希望皮质醇在一天的早些时候达到高水平。
Viewing sunlight early in the day-
一大早就看到阳光——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
increases it by at least 50%, then you want it to taper off, and on and on.
将其增加至少 50%，然后您希望它逐渐减少，然后不断增加。
I heard something recently which is going to make a lot of sense.
我最近听到了一些事情，这很有道理。
One thing that's happened in the last 30 years, which may at least partially explain the obesity crisis, is that calories which are depleted of nutrients, micronutrients, are very cheap now.
过去 30 年来发生的一件事，至少可以部分解释肥胖危机，那就是缺乏营养素和微量营养素的卡路里现在非常便宜。
They're very cheap to get calories, but they aren't nutritious calories.
它们获取卡路里的成本非常低，但它们并不是有营养的卡路里。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In addition, there's been a change in lighting technology so that blue light photons are very cheap.
此外，照明技术也发生了变化，蓝光光子非常便宜。
When I was a kid, my parents would say, "Turn off the lights.
当我还是个孩子的时候，我的父母会说：“把灯关掉。
It's costing us all this money." Now, it's very cheap to keep the lights on in a home.
这让我们花了这么多钱。”现在，保持家里的灯开着非常便宜。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The heat is a different story, but with respect.
炎热的天气则不同，但值得尊重。
So we have a lot of cheap photons.
所以我们有很多廉价的光子。
So I think of blue light as cheap photons, not the good-for-you photons.
所以我认为蓝光是廉价的光子，而不是对你有好处的光子。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not nourishing photons.
不滋养光子。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
That's correct.
这是正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And consuming calories too often or at the wrong times of day we know is bad for you.
我们知道，过于频繁地摄入卡路里或在一天中的错误时间摄入卡路里对您有害。
Consuming photons in the wrong form at the wrong time of day, bad for you.
在一天中错误的时间以错误的形式消耗光子对你不利。
And I think those two things combined, plus all the downstream negative cascades, can largely explain the obesity and, in some sense, mental health crisis.
我认为这两件事结合起来，加上所有下游的负面连锁反应，可以在很大程度上解释肥胖，以及在某种意义上的心理健康危机。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Interesting.
有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
There I editorialized again.
我在那里再次进行社论。
I realize that we're trying to shift the ratio to more Rick, less Andrew, but-
我意识到我们正试图将比例转向更多的瑞克，更少的安德鲁，但是-
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
He can't help himself.
他无法自拔。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He can't help himself, and Rick indulges me, so.
他无法自拔，所以里克纵容了我。
Actually, there were a number of questions in here that asked me, how has Rick helped you?
事实上，这里有很多问题问我，Rick 是如何帮助你的？
And I'm refraining from answering those because people want your answers for them.
我不会回答这些问题，因为人们想要你的答案。
But I do all the things that Rick's referring to.
但我做了里克提到的所有事情。
I'm not wearing red lens glasses now, but I have changed a lot of my health practices and/or sought out science to test whether or not some of the things that you've been doing for a while make sense, and indeed, in every case, they've made sense.
我现在没有戴红色镜片的眼镜，但我改变了很多健康习惯和/或寻求科学来测试你一段时间以来所做的一些事情是否有意义，事实上，在每种情况下，它们都是有意义的。
I'm not just saying that because you're here.
我这么说并不是因为你在这里。
But you and I do a lot of the same things.
但你和我做了很多相同的事情。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah, we're interested.
是的，我们感兴趣。
And if it didn't work, we'd probably stop doing it eventually.
如果它不起作用，我们最终可能会停止这样做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
It's like we're testing things.
这就像我们正在测试一些东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
And I do believe that what starts out as crazy, like Mike Mentzer stuff of low volume weight training with heavy weights, it works so much better than the high volumes.
我确实相信，像迈克·门泽尔（Mike Mentzer）的低容量重量训练和大重量训练一样，一开始就很疯狂，它比大容量训练效果要好得多。
All that stuff is being shown to be true in these peer-reviewed trials, so that's the nature of science.
所有这些东西在这些同行评审的试验中都被证明是真实的，所以这就是科学的本质。
Science often follows the practitioners by many decades.
科学常常跟随实践者数十年。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It doesn't get there first because it's a slower, more iterative process.
它不会首先到达那里，因为这是一个更慢、更迭代的过程。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But some people need to see those clinical trials to feel comfortable doing something.
但有些人需要看到这些临床试验才能放心地做某事。
I think the creative process is uniquely separated from academic science and academic scholarship in a way that I think has really benefited it.
我认为创作过程与学术科学和学术奖学金有着独特的区别，我认为这确实使之受益。
Can you imagine it if the Geto Boys had to get a degree in music theory in order to do what they do?
你能想象如果 Geto Boys 必须获得音乐理论学位才能做他们所做的事情吗？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
They wouldn't be the Geto Boys.
他们不会是盖托男孩。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Or Slayer.
或者杀手。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
They would not be Slayer.
他们不会成为杀手。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Or Public Enemy.
或者公众的敌人。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or Adele.
或者阿黛尔。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or Eminem, right?
或者阿姆，对吧？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's almost by virtue of the fact that there is no degree for that-
这几乎是因为没有学位这一事实——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
per se, that allowed them to do what they did, right?
就其本身而言，这让他们能够做他们所做的事情，对吧？
Yeah.
是的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what are your thoughts on schooling and higher education or just education?
那么您对学校教育和高等教育或仅仅是教育有何看法？
You were at NYU when you launched your record label.
当你推出你的唱片公司时，你正在纽约大学。
You graduated NYU, right?
你毕业于纽约大学，对吧？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I did.
我做到了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What are your thoughts on getting a quote-unquote formal education?
您对接受正规教育有何看法？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
It seems like an obsolete idea.
这似乎是一个过时的想法。
I think maybe there was a time where it would've been helpful, and maybe depending on if the thing that you want to study can only be learned in an institution, maybe it would make sense.
我想也许曾经有一段时间它会有所帮助，也许取决于你想学习的东西是否只能在一个机构中学习，也许它会有意义。
But I think the real world, getting an internship or finding the right mentor and going into whatever the thing is that you're interested in learning about, learning from people who do it as opposed to the system, I think might be a better use of your time.
但我认为在现实世界中，获得实习机会或找到合适的导师并深入研究您感兴趣的任何事物，向从事这些工作的人而不是系统学习，我认为可能会更好地利用您的时间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The creative process doesn't exist in a vacuum, and relationships are a huge part of life.
创作过程并不存在于真空中，人际关系是生活的重要组成部分。
One thing that I've heard you say and that certainly I've been working to internalize is this idea that whatever relationships one has in their life, romantic relationships or not, married or not, kids or not, that the ideal circumstance is where one's work ...
我听你说过一件事，当然我一直在努力内化，那就是这样一个想法：无论一个人在生活中拥有什么关系，是否有恋爱关系，是否已婚，是否有孩子，理想的环境就是一个人工作的地方......
is the most stressful part of their life.
是他们生活中压力最大的部分。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can you tell us more about that?
您能告诉我们更多相关信息吗？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
The home is the safe place from which you can go out and be a warrior and do all these great things and these crazy things.
家是一个安全的地方，你可以走出家门，成为一名战士，做所有这些伟大的事情和疯狂的事情。
I'm fearless when it comes to art.
当谈到艺术时，我无所畏惧。
I'm not fearless when it comes to life.
当谈到生活时，我并不无所畏惧。
Life is my relationships.
生活就是我的人际关系。
Art is where we can do these crazy things and have fun and try extreme things and see what happens.
艺术是我们可以做这些疯狂的事情、享受乐趣、尝试极端的事情，看看会发生什么的地方。
And that's a safe place to do that because it's just expression.
这是一个安全的地方，因为这只是表达。
The things we make don't have to represent who we are.
我们制造的东西不一定代表我们是谁。
They're just the things we make.
它们只是我们制造的东西。
And that's a point of view.
这就是一个观点。
It's like, "This is interesting to me in this moment.
就像是，“此刻这对我来说很有趣。
Check it out." That's all it is.
看看吧。”仅此而已。
May have a completely different feeling tomorrow.
明天可能会有完全不同的感觉。
Within a relationship, it's long term, hopefully.
在一段关系中，希望是长期的。
And it's as long term as it's a productive relationship where everybody's getting what they want from that relationship.
这是一种长期的、富有成效的关系，每个人都能从这种关系中得到他们想要的东西。
Everybody's needs are being met, and everybody cares enough to meet each other's needs.
每个人的需求都得到满足，每个人都足够关心满足彼此的需求。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I've always admired how rational you are about relationships and this notion that if everybody isn't being honest, there's no relationship, actually.
是的，我一直很钦佩你对人际关系的理性，以及如果每个人都不诚实，实际上就没有关系的观念。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not it's a bad relationship, but there's actually no relationship.
不是关系不好，而是实际上没有关系。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
No, because if someone's not telling the truth, then each person is experiencing a different understanding of the world.
不，因为如果有人没有说实话，那么每个人都会对世界有不同的理解。
They're living in two different worlds.
他们生活在两个不同的世界。
So they're never actually together when you're experiencing a different world.
因此，当您体验不同的世界时，他们实际上永远不会在一起。
You don't have to agree.
你不必同意。
I'm not saying you have to agree on everything, but you have to be truthful in saying, "This is how I see it," and your partner is clear in, "Yes, this is how I see it," or, "No, this is how I see it." You're on the same page, even in disagreement, but it's real.
我并不是说你们必须在所有事情上都达成一致，但你必须诚实地说，“这就是我的看法”，并且你的伴侣明确地说，“是的，这就是我的看法”，或者“不，这就是我的看法。”即使存在分歧，你们也意见一致，但这是真实的。
Each of you are being who you are for and with the other.
你们每个人都在为他人而做自己，并与他人在一起。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
But if you're not opening yourself up in that way to your partner, you're in a different world.
但如果你不以这种方式向你的伴侣敞开心扉，你就会身处一个不同的世界。
They have an idea of what's happening that's completely different than what you have an idea of what's happening.
他们对正在发生的事情的了解与你对正在发生的事情的了解完全不同。
That's not being together.
那不是在一起。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No masks.
没有口罩。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
No. No. It's the same as when you said earlier about lying in your diary.
不，不，这和你之前在日记里说的撒谎是一样的。
You'd only be doing a disservice to yourself.
你这样做只会伤害你自己。
Lying in a relationship would only be doing a disservice to yourself.
在恋爱关系中撒谎只会对自己造成伤害。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mike Ness of Social Distortion has a song called "Cheating at Solitaire," which seems like an appropriate title to mention right now.
Social Distortion 的 Mike Ness 有一首名为“Cheating at Solitaire”的歌曲，现在看来这是一个合适的标题。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Lying in the diary, cheating at solitaire.
躺在日记里，在纸牌游戏中作弊。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
It's ridiculous.
这太荒谬了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Doesn't make any sense.
没有任何意义。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
No. You're not actually playing the game.
不，你实际上并没有在玩游戏。
Do you know what I mean?
你知道我的意思吗？
If you're cheating at it, you're not actually playing the game.
如果你作弊，那么你就没有真正玩这个游戏。
The whole point of the game is the game.
游戏的全部重点就是游戏。
If you cheat at it, you're not playing the game.
如果你作弊，你就没有玩这个游戏。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you have any must-read books for people?
您有什么人们必读的书吗？
I'll throw one out, Rick's book on "The Creative Act: A Way of Being." But in addition to that book, what are some books that you recommend to people for stimulating thought or for, I don't know, health purposes or things that you found particularly beneficial in book form?
我会扔掉一本，里克的《创造性行为：一种存在方式》一书。但除了那本书之外，您还向人们推荐哪些书籍来激发思考或出于（我不知道）健康目的或您认为以书籍形式特别有益的书籍？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
My favorite book about meditation is called "Wherever You Go, There You Are."
我最喜欢的关于冥想的书是《无论你走到哪里，你就在那里》。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, I love that.
哦，我喜欢那个。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
And I just got sent the 30th anniversary edition, which is completely rewritten.
我刚刚收到了 30 周年纪念版，它是完全重写的。
I have not yet read the rewritten version, but I love the original version, and I know the rewritten version.
我还没有读过重写的版本，但我喜欢原始版本，并且我知道重写的版本。
I'm guessing the rewritten version is just more refined and even better.
我猜重写的版本会更加精致，甚至更好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Such a great book.
这么棒的书。
That book was given to me when I was about 14 and a half, when I was released from a particularly uncomfortable, non-voluntary state of affairs.
那本书是在我 14 岁半的时候给我的，当时我从一种特别不舒服、非自愿的状态中解脱出来。
And one of the things that I remember about that book that helped me through so many years of life, and I have to go back to, is this mountain visualization meditation.
我记得那本书帮助我度过了这么多年的生活，而且我必须回顾一下，其中一件事就是山观想冥想。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Being a mountain.
成为一座山。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't know why it was so helpful, but goodness was it helpful for me.
我不知道为什么它如此有帮助，但天哪，它对我很有帮助。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
It's a beautiful idea.
这是一个美好的主意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I don't know why I thought of that just now, but I'm going to go back and read it.
是的，我不知道为什么我刚才会想到这个，但我要回去读一下。
Do you think that there's genetic, epigenetic, family lineage stuff unrelated to genetics that leads us to create things that are really about our ancestors?
你认为是否存在与遗传学无关的遗传、表观遗传、家族血统等因素导致我们创造出真正与我们祖先有关的东西？
For instance, let's take Johnny Cash, for instance, or an artist that you've worked with more recently, Chili Peppers, that when they got together to make music, that something from Anthony's family line was being transmuted through him into the songs.
举例来说，让我们以约翰尼·卡什（Johnny Cash）或者你最近合作过的一位艺术家辣椒（Chili Peppers）为例，当他们聚在一起创作音乐时，安东尼家族的一些东西通过他转化为歌曲。
Is that happening?
这种事发生了吗？
Do you think that we can work out and include things that are generations far back enough that we don't even really know what happened to them?
你认为我们可以解决并包括那些早在几代人之前我们甚至不知道发生了什么的事情吗？
I mean, it's coming through in our genes.
我的意思是，它已经存在于我们的基因中。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I think it's certainly possible, but I don't think we can know, and I don't think it's necessarily even helpful to know.
我认为这当然有可能，但我认为我们无法知道，而且我认为知道也不一定有帮助。
It just is one of those mysterious things.
这只是那些神秘的事情之一。
I don't think we know why we do many of the things we do, and it's just another example of that.
我认为我们不知道为什么要做我们所做的许多事情，这只是另一个例子。
And that's a possible theory to explain why we do the things we do, maybe.
这也许是解释我们为什么要做这些事情的一个可能的理论。
But there may be another one.
但可能还有另一种。
It may be UFOs are controlling us.
可能是不明飞行物正在控制我们。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Do you know what I'm saying?
你知道我在说什么吗？
It could be anything.
它可以是任何东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There are people on the internet that think that it's UFOs that are controlling us.
互联网上有人认为是不明飞行物在控制我们。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Could be.
可能是。
I wouldn't disagree with that.
我不会不同意这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
More and more evidence is coming out that unidentified flying objects might actually be a documented phenomenon by the US government.
越来越多的证据表明，不明飞行物实际上可能是美国政府记录的现象。
I haven't looked into it yet, but-
我还没研究过，但是——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I wouldn't be surprised
我不会感到惊讶
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
when you were on this podcast before and on several other podcasts, you mentioned that you don't play music, at least not routinely.
当您之前在这个播客和其他几个播客中时，您提到您不播放音乐，至少不经常播放。
You don't play an instrument, that you have limited knowledge of how a soundboard works.
您不会演奏乐器，因此您对音板如何工作的了解有限。
So when you're listening to artists, are you listening for something, or you're staying open for something that you might hear, that will trigger a certain state in you that you recognize?
因此，当您聆听艺术家的音乐时，您是否在聆听某些内容，或者您是否对您可能听到的某些内容保持开放态度，这会触发您所认识的某种状态？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I'm open to just see what's happening.
我愿意看看发生了什么。
I listen and recognize, is this making me lean forward?
我听着并意识到，这是否让我向前倾？
Am I curious to see what's going to happen next?
我很好奇接下来会发生什么吗？
Is the thing that happens next different than what I thought was going to happen next?
接下来发生的事情与我想象的接下来会发生的事情有什么不同吗？
That could be interesting.
这可能很有趣。
I listen to a lot of music.
我听很多音乐。
When it doesn't do what's expected, that's really interesting, especially if it sounds good, if it works.
当它没有达到预期的效果时，这真的很有趣，特别是如果它听起来不错，如果它有效的话。
So I'm just open to experiencing what it is.
所以我愿意去体验它是什么。
And I'll say something funny about it, which is, this will sound mystical, I don't understand it, but often you can tell a lot about the piece of music you're going to listen to based on the first sound you hear.
我会说一些有趣的事情，那就是，这听起来很神秘，我不明白，但通常你可以根据你听到的第一个声音告诉你很多关于你将要听的音乐的信息。
Like the first moment.
就像最初的那一刻一样。
It's not about what note it is.
这与它是什么音符无关。
It's not about what instrument it is.
这与它是什么乐器无关。
It's intention in the performance, and that performance could even be a machine.
这是表演的意图，而表演甚至可以是一台机器。
The way when something starts, sometimes there's this feeling of, "Oh, this is going to be good," just out of the boom, the downbeat.
当某件事开始时，有时会有这样的感觉，“哦，这会很好”，就在繁荣和悲观之中。
Can't explain it.
无法解释它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Reminds me of dating.
让我想起约会。
And you know within half a nanosecond, this is going to be a fun night.
你知道在半纳秒之内，这将是一个有趣的夜晚。
This will be an interesting night.
这将是一个有趣的夜晚。
This person's interesting.
这个人很有趣。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or, okay, this is not a night to continue.
或者，好吧，这不是一个可以继续的夜晚。
Right?
正确的？
I don't know.
我不知道。
And it's not what's said necessarily or even how it's said, just it's a feeling.
这不一定是说什么，甚至不是怎么说，只是一种感觉。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I know that depending on how I'm feeling, I'll avoid listening critically to something.
我知道，根据我的感受，我会避免批判性地倾听某些东西。
If I'm not feeling well, if I don't feel like I can be completely there and open, I'll not listen.
如果我感觉不舒服，如果我感觉自己不能完全处于那里并开放，我就不会听。
I know I want to really be there for the thing that I'm listening to.
我知道我真的想参与我正在听的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you inform people if, like, "Hey, I'm not here today.
如果你会告诉人们，比如“嘿，我今天不在这里。
I can't-"
我不能——”
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Sometimes.
有时。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Sometimes.
有时。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As somebody who has never been part of the music production process, how long does it take, like for an album, let's throw out an artist you've worked with, like you worked with Eminem.
作为一个从未参与过音乐制作过程的人，这需要多长时间，就像制作一张专辑一样，让我们抛弃一位与你合作过的艺术家，就像你与阿姆合作过一样。
You did some songs on that album or the whole album?
你在该专辑或整张专辑中演唱了一些歌曲吗？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I did some songs.
我做了一些歌曲。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So did he come in with those written and then you guys worked together on those songs?
那么他是带着这些歌曲进来的，然后你们一起创作了这些歌曲吗？
How long, was that a week, a month, a day?
有多长，是一周、一个月还是一天？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I think we were together for several weeks.
我想我们在一起了几个星期。
It's been long enough now that I can't remember the specifics, but there is no rule of how that works.
现在时间已经够长了，具体细节我已经记不清了，但具体如何运作却没有任何规则。
And sometimes things come together very quickly.
有时事情很快就会发生。
An album can be made in a weekend, and some albums are years in the making.
一张专辑可以在一个周末制作完成，有些专辑的制作需要数年时间。
When it's years in the making, it's rarely every day for years in the making.
当它经过多年的酝酿时，很少会每天都在酝酿。
It's usually more episodic.
它通常更具情景性。
But there is something, both versions are very interesting, and it's something that comes out almost fully formed very quickly, has particular energy.
但有一些东西，两个版本都非常有趣，而且它几乎很快就完全成型，具有特殊的能量。
And then something that's made over time can have all of those individual moments, all the changes that happen within you over that period of time, those can all be reflected and be the difference between a daily diary journal and reading three months.
然后随着时间的推移而制作的东西可以拥有所有这些单独的时刻，在那段时间你内在发生的所有变化，这些都可以反映出来，并且是每日日记和阅读三个月之间的区别。
It's different.
这是不同的。
They're two different things.
它们是两个不同的东西。
Can't say one's better than the other.
不能说一个人比另一个人更好。
They're just two different things.
它们只是两个不同的东西。
So some projects are more like a year's diary, and some are more like a weekend.
所以有些项目更像是一年的日记，有些则更像是一个周末。
And same, you watch a movie, some movies, the movie story takes place in 24 hours.
同样的，你看一部电影，有些电影，电影故事发生在24小时内。
And sometimes it's a person's lifetime.
有时，这就是一个人的一生。
One's not a better method than the other.
一种方法并不比另一种方法更好。
It's whatever suits the work.
适合工作的就可以了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Speaking of your work with Eminem, but also with Jay-Z and with Beastie Boys and others, you are featured in a number of the videos.
谈到您与 Eminem、Jay-Z、Beastie Boys 等的合作，您在许多视频中都有出现。
You show up in those videos.
你出现在那些视频中。
Whose decision was that, and what are your thoughts on music videos?
这是谁的决定？您对音乐视频有何看法？
I remember when music videos first came out, the whole MTV era, and just thinking like, "This is so cool.
我记得当音乐视频第一次出现时，整个 MTV 时代，我就想，“这太酷了。
I can see the artists, see how they're dressed," all of the crazy styles and all of that that accompany the music.
我可以看到艺术家，看到他们的穿着，”所有疯狂的风格以及所有伴随音乐的东西。
Two questions.
两个问题。
One Whose decision was it to be in the videos?
一 谁决定出现在视频中？
Because producers often are not included in the videos.
因为制作人通常不包含在视频中。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
It would always be if the artist asked.
如果艺术家提出要求，那就总是这样。
That'd be the only reason I would be there.
这是我在那里的唯一原因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And two, what are your thoughts on music videos and the idea that then it puts a very strong visual to the song, whereas were there not to be a video, people could just imagine something based on what they're hearing and hearing alone?
第二，你对音乐视频有何看法，以及它如何为歌曲带来非常强烈的视觉效果，而如果没有视频，人们只能根据他们所听到的和单独听到的内容来想象一些东西？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
They're two different things.
它们是两个不同的东西。
There's not a better or worse.
没有更好或更坏。
There are some times where the video makes the song better, and there's often the case where the poetry of the words, if you close your eyes and listen to what the words are, as a listener, you get to participate in creating that world in your head.
有时，视频会让歌曲变得更好，而且经常会出现这样的情况：歌词的诗意，如果你闭上眼睛，听歌词是什么，作为一个听众，你就可以参与在你脑海中创造那个世界。
So sometimes photographs can tell us too much information.
所以有时照片可以告诉我们太多的信息。
It's too leading.
这也太领先了吧
It limits the story to just this photograph.
它把故事限制在这张照片上。
The photograph tells you much more than the words.
照片比文字告诉你的更多。
The words can be interpreted in many ways, and then we each get to have that experience.
这些词可以有多种解释，然后我们每个人都会有这种体验。
It's something in the book that I was cognizant of in picking the words, was never to be specific to the point of where the reader doesn't get to participate in this act.
这是我在书中选择措辞时意识到的事情，从来没有具体说明读者无法参与这一行为。
So it doesn't tell you what to think.
所以它不会告诉你该怎么想。
It's an invitation to think.
这是一个思考的邀请。
It's an invitation to say, "Where am I in this?
这是一个邀请，让我们说：“我在这之中处于什么位置？
What's my version of this?" It's not about anyone else.
我的版本是什么？”这与其他人无关。
It's about the reader.
这是关于读者的。
From the beginning, that was always part of my understanding of what I thought would be the most helpful.
从一开始，这始终是我理解的一部分，我认为什么是最有帮助的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The cover certainly embodies that, that it's not clear exactly what the cover design is, quote-unquote, "supposed to be."
封面当然体现了这一点，即不清楚封面设计到底是什么，引用不引用，“应该是”。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's open to interpretation.
它可以解释。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah, you can interpret it as you wish, and different people see different things.
是的，你可以按照你的意思来解释，不同的人有不同的看法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's get current.
让我们了解最新情况。
What are you working on now that you're excited about, if you can share?
您现在正在做什么让您感到兴奋的事情，可以分享一下吗？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Let me see what I can and can't share.
让我看看我能分享什么和不能分享什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could be broad categories of things, too.
也可能是广泛的事物类别。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Okay.
好的。
I'm working on a couple of documentary projects that I'm excited about, and some albums that I've been working on over time are coming out.
我正在制作几个令我兴奋的纪录片项目，并且我一直在制作的一些专辑即将问世。
One is an incredible singer-guitar player named Marcus King.
其中一位是一位令人难以置信的歌手兼吉他手，名叫马库斯·金(Marcus King)。
His album's about to come out.
他的专辑即将出版。
The Gossip is a band that I made an album with 10 years ago, and we just made a new album, or we made an album maybe 18 months ago, and that's coming out now.
The Gossip 是一支乐队，我 10 年前就和他们一起制作了一张专辑，我们刚刚制作了一张新专辑，或者我们可能 18 个月前制作了一张专辑，现在即将发行。
Those are the first ones that come to mind.
这些是我首先想到的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is the documentary process fun for you, and how do you approach that?
纪录片制作过程对你来说有趣吗？你是如何处理的？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I watch a lot of documentaries to learn what I don't want to do.
我看很多纪录片来了解我不想做的事情。
I don't think I've been inspired-- Well, maybe some cases where I get inspired by what I'm seeing, but more often, I see things and I say, "Okay, these documentaries all have this format, so I know I don't want it to be this format." It's more of a ruling out.
我不认为我受到了启发——嗯，也许在某些情况下我会从我所看到的东西中获得灵感，但更多时候，我看到一些东西，然后我说，“好吧，这些纪录片都有这种格式，所以我知道我不希望它是这种格式。”这更像是一种排除。
And it's fun to find new ways that reveal different information than the standard format allows.
寻找新的方法来揭示与标准格式允许的不同的信息是很有趣的。
It's interesting to me.
这对我来说很有趣。
We'll see if anyone else cares.
我们看看是否还有其他人关心。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You have a unique approach to podcasting.
您有独特的播客方法。
First of all, what are your criteria for who you invite on as a guest?
首先，您邀请谁作为嘉宾的标准是什么？
And second, what do you have in mind when you sit down and podcast?
其次，当你坐下来播客时，你在想什么？
I have some ideas about how you're going to answer, but I think it's important that I not inject.
我对你如何回答有一些想法，但我认为重要的是我不注入。
I think people are interested in this even if they don't want to podcast, because I think it gets to the process of something that you're doing now and how you're doing it now.
我认为人们对此感兴趣，即使他们不想播客，因为我认为这涉及到你现在正在做的事情的过程以及你现在如何做。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
I didn't set out to do what I'm about to tell you.
我并没有打算做我要告诉你的事情。
I didn't set out to do this, but it's something that after I started doing it, I came to realize it's an interesting thing.
我并没有打算这样做，但是当我开始这样做之后，我开始意识到这是一件有趣的事情。
And I actually learned this from listening to your podcast.
我实际上是通过听你的播客了解到这一点的。
It was actually Lex's podcast with you.
这实际上是 Lex 和你的播客。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
And I was listening to the podcast, and I know you know Lex, and I know you guys are friends.
我正在听播客，我知道你认识莱克斯，我知道你们是朋友。
And both of you, in addition to you talking to Lex, you're talking to the audience.
你们俩除了与莱克斯交谈外，还与观众交谈。
And Lex, in addition to talking to you, talks to the audience.
Lex 除了与你交谈之外，还与观众交谈。
And the audience was a participant in your conversation.
观众是你谈话的参与者。
And I realized that at the Tetragrammaton podcast, it's different than that.
我意识到在 Tetragrammaton 播客上，情况有所不同。
It's more of an intimate, personal, like the interview with you that hasn't come out yet.
这更像是一次亲密的、私人的，就像对你的采访，但还没有出来。
That was me talking to you.
那是我在跟你说话。
I certainly didn't have any idea that anybody else was going to hear it other than, yes, someone else is going to hear it, but that's not what this is.
我当然不知道其他人会听到它，除了，是的，其他人会听到它，但事实并非如此。
I was asking you the questions I was interested in, and I wanted to learn as much as I could.
我问了你我感兴趣的问题，我想尽可能多地了解。
And if you said something either that I didn't understand, I'd ask you to explain it.
如果你说了一些我听不懂的话，我会请你解释一下。
Or if you told me a story about something that sent me on a tangent that I want to know more about this left side of what you said or the right side of what you said, I would ask, but only following my own interests.
或者，如果你给我讲了一个故事，让我偏离主题，我想更多地了解你所说的左侧或右侧，我会问，但只遵循我自己的兴趣。
So it has an intimacy.
所以有一种亲切感。
If I listen to a Tetragrammaton podcast, it sounds like I'm overhearing a conversation, a personal conversation.
如果我听 Tetragrammaton 播客，听起来就像我无意中听到了一场对话，一场私人对话。
And It has turned into parts of certain decisions we've made, like there's music at the beginning, and then you hear the guest more often than not is in the middle of a story.
它已经变成了我们做出的某些决定的一部分，就像开头有音乐，然后你经常听到客人正处于故事的中间。
And it's almost as if you've walked into a room and people are in this deep conversation, and you're just sitting on the side quietly and hearing this conversation, and it's a real moment that's happening there, and it's just different.
就好像你走进一个房间，人们正在进行深入的对话，而你只是安静地坐在一边听着这段对话，这是一个真实的时刻，正在那里发生，而且它只是不同。
I can't say it's better, I can't say it's worse.
我不能说它更好，我不能说它更糟。
I don't know what's interesting about it, but something about it's interesting to me, and when I listen to it, I feel a different kind of an intimacy.
我不知道它有什么有趣的地方，但它的某些东西让我感兴趣，当我听它的时候，我感受到一种不同的亲切感。
And again, it wasn't premeditated.
再说一次，这不是有预谋的。
This is after the fact I'm looking back and understanding, oh, this is what it is.
这是事后我回头看才明白，哦，原来是这样。
This is why this is different.
这就是为什么这是不同的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
The podcast that I did with you on your podcast-
我在你的播客上和你一起做的播客-
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
when I was featured as a guest the second time, I completely forgot that we were podcasting.
当我第二次作为嘉宾出现时，我完全忘记了我们是在播客。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was also good we'd had a few days together overseas there.
我们在海外一起度过了几天，这也很好。
We were in a very kind of isolated environment.
我们处于一个非常孤立的环境中。
That helped me get out of the mode of, there are listeners.
这帮助我摆脱了“有听众”的模式。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
There's no sense of performance involved.
没有涉及表演的感觉。
It couldn't be more casual.
再随意不过了。
And the reason I chose not to film it is because the nature of lights and cameras make it harder to forget that you're doing it.
我选择不拍摄它的原因是灯光和摄像机的性质使人更难忘记你正在做这件事。
So I aim for it to be as natural an experience, so that you can have the conversation that you really would have if there were no lights and cameras.
所以我的目标是让它成为一种自然的体验，这样你就可以进行没有灯光和摄像头时真正会进行的对话。
Not that we want to reveal anything.
并不是说我们想透露任何事情。
It's a level of comfort and openness where you're talking to somebody you like, and you're enjoying the conversation.
这是一种舒适和开放的感觉，你正在与你喜欢的人交谈，并且你很享受谈话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that's so you.
这就是你。
I just have to share that, the first time we met in person, you and I had FaceTimed a number of times previous to that, but the first time we met in person, I came over to your house.
我只想分享一下，我们第一次见面时，你和我之前已经进行过多次 FaceTime 通话，但我们第一次见面时，我去了你家。
We ended up doing sauna and cold, and I was going through a particularly challenging time in my life.
我们最后做了桑拿和冷敷，我正在经历人生中一个特别具有挑战性的时期。
It had really just hit me square in the face.
它确实打在我脸上。
And I remember saying, "Hey, listen, I don't know if we can talk about this," but I just opened up about all of it.
我记得我说过，“嘿，听着，我不知道我们是否可以谈论这个，”但我只是敞开心扉谈论这一切。
And that's the moment when, we would've become friends anyway, but that's where things really took off, because I kept apologizing at the end.
在那一刻，我们无论如何都会成为朋友，但这才是事情真正起飞的地方，因为我最后一直在道歉。
I said, "I'm so sorry," and you said, "No. No. This is actually what we're supposed to do."
我说，“我很抱歉，”你说，“不，不。这实际上是我们应该做的。”
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I feel very grateful that we've remained close friends ever since, and that catalyzed a lot.
我非常感激我们从那时起就一直是亲密的朋友，这起到了很大的促进作用。
But I think that one of the things I love about podcasts, not just podcasting, but podcasts, is that the really effective podcasts, like yours, like Lex's, like Rogan, like Rich Roll, Tim Ferriss, they really reflect the love and passion that the person has for that kind of conversation.
但我认为我喜欢播客的原因之一，不仅仅是播客，而是真正有效的播客，比如你的播客，比如莱克斯的，比如罗根，比如里奇·罗尔，蒂姆·费里斯，它们真正反映了人们对这种对话的热爱和热情。
I can certainly say this about my podcast.
我当然可以这样评价我的播客。
I've been learning, organizing, and distributing information since I was six years old.
我从六岁起就开始学习、组织和分发信息。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So my podcast is just that.
所以我的播客就是这样。
You like real conversation and real things that are unbarriered by the idea that maybe someone's going to listen, and how will it work out?
你喜欢真实的对话和真实的事情，不受“也许有人会听”的想法的阻碍，结果会如何？
Just like we talked about earlier, and you answered the questions that way.
就像我们刚才讲的，你就是这样回答问题的。
And I think Lex likes Lex's form of thing, and Joe is doing his form of thing.
我认为莱克斯喜欢莱克斯的做事方式，而乔正在做他的做事方式。
And I think that's, to me, one of the great gifts of podcasting.
对我来说，我认为这是播客的伟大礼物之一。
If anyone wants to know how to create a successful podcast, quote unquote, successful, it's have the kind of conversations and talk about the kinds of things you really love.
如果有人想知道如何创建一个成功的播客，引用不引用，成功的话，那就是进行对话并谈论你真正喜欢的事情。
Like Cameron Hanes has this "Lift, Run, Shoot" podcast, where you go to his house, you do a workout, then you go for a run, and then he teaches you archery.
就像卡梅伦·哈内斯（Cameron Hanes）的“举重、跑步、射击”播客一样，你去他家，做锻炼，然后去跑步，然后他教你射箭。
And the reason it's so effective is that he loves lifting, running, and shooting.
它如此有效的原因是他喜欢举重、跑步和投篮。
And then he-
然后他——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
It's honest
是诚实的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and he loves teaching people that.
他喜欢教导人们这一点。
So at the end of the day, you're sitting down talking about a great day-
所以在一天结束时，你会坐下来谈论美好的一天-
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that embodies everything that he's about and the person learned.
这体现了他所关心的一切以及这个人所学到的一切。
And I couldn't do that podcast.
我无法做那个播客。
I can go on as a guest, and I loved being a guest.
我可以继续作为客人，而且我喜欢当客人。
But I think that's the message, and it brings us back to what you were talking about earlier, and throughout today's discussion, which is that if you're thinking about how it's going to land, how the hell could it ever work?
但我认为这就是信息，它让我们回到了您之前以及整个今天的讨论中所讨论的内容，那就是，如果您正在考虑它将如何着陆，那么它到底如何运作？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
It's just a different thing.
这只是另一回事。
I had a conversation yesterday, for the podcast with Daniel Kaluuya, who I've never met before.
昨天，我在播客节目中与丹尼尔·卡卢亚（Daniel Kaluuya）进行了交谈，我以前从未见过他。
Incredible actor and beautiful human being.
令人难以置信的演员和美丽的人类。
And we probably talked for about three hours, and it was a deep conversation, and I feel like I might have a new best friend.
我们大概聊了大约三个小时，这是一次深入的谈话，我觉得我可能有了一个新的最好的朋友。
He's unbelievable, the coolest guy.
他令人难以置信，是最酷的人。
If I wasn't doing the podcast, I don't know if I would've met him.
如果我没有做播客，我不知道我是否会遇到他。
It just worked out.
刚刚成功了。
It worked out that I got to meet this incredible person.
结果我遇到了这个不可思议的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, Rick, we covered most of the most frequently asked questions, and you've been extremely gracious with your time and thoughtfulness in answering them.
好吧，瑞克，我们涵盖了大部分最常见的问题，您非常慷慨地花费了时间并考虑周到地回答了这些问题。
And I don't know what to say except thank you for taking the time to do yet another podcast to answer the audience's questions.
我不知道该说什么，除了感谢您花时间做另一个播客来回答观众的问题。
They were here in this podcast in the form of this very large stack of questions.
他们以一大堆问题的形式出现在这个播客中。
And of course, your book includes a lot of information that encapsulates this, but I think this really fleshes out some of the details of how you go about things, how certain things can't be the same for everybody.
当然，你的书包含了很多概括这一点的信息，但我认为这确实充实了你如何处理事情的一些细节，以及某些事情不可能对每个人都一样。
And I think in answering these questions, you provided a great service to people who are perhaps still struggling with getting the creative process going or flowing.
我认为，在回答这些问题时，您为那些可能仍在努力让创意过程顺利进行的人们提供了很好的服务。
I'm certain that it's going to change the way that I focus and lean into my day.
我确信它会改变我集中注意力和度过一天的方式。
I've got a number of different notes here.
我这里有很多不同的笔记。
And maybe I'll be willing to share them with people, but then that would go against the principle of, this is for me, and everyone's going to work it out their own way.
也许我会愿意与人们分享它们，但这就会违背这样的原则：这是为了我，每个人都会以自己的方式解决它。
So we'll provide links to everything that was mentioned where there's a link that's relevant.
因此，我们将提供所有提到的相关链接的链接。
And Yeah, man, I just want to say thank you so much for being such an incredible educator and such an incredible friend as well.
是的，我只想说，非常感谢你，你是一位如此出色的教育家，也是如此出色的朋友。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
It's a funny idea of being an educator.
成为一名教育者是一个有趣的想法。
I can't imagine that, but I appreciate those words.
我无法想象，但我很欣赏这些话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, you are indeed an educator.
嗯，你确实是一个教育家。
We're learning so much from you.
我们从你身上学到了很多东西。
And if you just step back for a second and think about all the creative works that have stemmed and are going to stem from the learnings that people have achieved from hearing your experience and wisdom, it's incalculable.
如果你退后一步，想一想人们从你的经验和智慧中获得的知识，已经产生和将产生的所有创造性作品，这是无法估量的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Wow.
哇。
I'll take it.
我要买它。
Thank you, sir.
谢谢您，先生。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion about protocols for creativity with the one and only Rick Rubin.
感谢您今天与我一起与唯一的 Rick Rubin 一起讨论创造力协议。
Please also be sure to check out the links in the show note captions, in particular to Rick's incredible book all about the creative process, entitled "The Creative Act: A Way of Being." If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
还请务必查看节目注释标题中的链接，特别是 Rick 的关于创作过程的令人难以置信的书，题为“创意行为：一种存在方式”。如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请在 Spotify 和 Apple 上订阅该播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests you'd like me to consider on the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问或对播客或您希望我在 Huberman Lab 播客上考虑的嘉宾有意见，请将这些意见放在 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
Not so much on today's episode, but on many previous episodes of the Huberman Lab podcast, we discuss supplements.
今天的节目不多，但在 Huberman 实验室播客的许多以前的节目中，我们讨论了补充剂。
While supplements aren't necessary for everybody, many people derive tremendous benefit from them for things like improving sleep, for hormone support, and for improving focus.
虽然补充剂并不是每个人都需要的，但许多人从它们中获得了巨大的好处，例如改善睡眠、激素支持和提高注意力。
To learn more about the supplements discussed on the Huberman Lab podcast, go to Live Momentous, spelled O-U-S, so livemomentous.com/huberman.
要了解有关 Huberman Lab 播客上讨论的补充剂的更多信息，请访问 Live Momentous，拼写为 O-U-S，即 livemomentous.com/huberman。
If you're not already following me on social media, I am hubermanlab on Instagram, X, formerly called Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, and Threads.
如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是 Instagram、X（以前称为 Twitter、LinkedIn、Facebook 和 Threads）上的 hubermanlab。
And at all of those places, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content covered on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些地方，我讨论了科学和科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客所涵盖的内容不同。
So again, it's hubermanlab on all social media channels.
再说一次，所有社交媒体渠道上都是 hubermanlab。
If you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, our Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost newsletter that comes out every month.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，我们的神经网络时事通讯是每月发布的零成本时事通讯。
It includes podcast summaries, as well as protocols in the form of short PDFs of maybe just one to three pages, where I list out the specific protocols, for instance, for improving dopamine functioning, or for improving your sleep, or for deliberate cold exposure, deliberate heat exposure, or fitness protocols, and on and on.
它包括播客摘要，以及可能只有一到三页的简短 PDF 形式的协议，其中我列出了具体协议，例如，用于改善多巴胺功能、或改善睡眠、或有意冷暴露、有意热暴露或健身协议，等等。
All of which are presented in brief fashion, very direct, just the protocols listed out.
所有这些都以简短、非常直接的方式呈现，只是列出了协议。
Again, completely zero cost.
再次强调，完全零成本。
To sign up, you simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu function, scroll down to Newsletter, and enter your email.
要注册，您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到菜单功能，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件。
And I should point out that we do not share your email with anybody.
我应该指出，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Rick Rubin.
再次感谢您参加今天与 Rick Rubin 的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。