Rick Rubin: How to Access Your Creativity
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
Today my guest is Rick Rubin.
今天我的嘉宾是里克·鲁宾。
Rick Rubin is credited with being one of the most creative and prolific music producers of all time.
里克·鲁宾被誉为有史以来最具创造力和最多产的音乐制作人之一。
The range of artists with whom he's worked with and discovered is absolutely staggering, ranging from artists such as LL Cool J, Public Enemy, Minor Threat, Fugazi, Beastie Boys, Jesus and Mary Chain, Jay-Z, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Metallica, Green Day, Tom Petty, System of a Down, Joe Strummer, Kanye West, Johnny Cash, Adele, and many, many more.
与他合作并发现的艺术家数量绝对惊人，包括 LL Cool J、Public Enemy、Minor Threat、Fugazi、Beastie Boys、Jesus and Mary Chain、Jay-Z、Red Hot Chili Peppers、Metallica、Green Day、Tom Petty、System of a Down、Joe Strummer、Kanye West、Johnny Cash、Adele 等等。
Not surprisingly, therefore, Rick is considered somewhat of an enigma.
因此，毫不奇怪，瑞克被认为是一个谜。
That is, people want to know how it is that one individual is able to extract the best creative artistry from so many different people in so many different genres of music.
也就是说，人们想知道一个人如何能够从如此多不同的人身上、在如此多不同的音乐流派中提取出最好的创意艺术。
Well, as today's discussion reveals, Rick's expertise in the creative process extends well beyond music.
好吧，正如今天的讨论所揭示的那样，里克在创作过程中的专业知识远远超出了音乐范围。
In fact, our conversation takes us into the realm of what the creative process is specifically and generally across domains, including music, of course, but also writing, film, science, and essentially all domains in which new original thought, ideas, and production of anything becomes important.
事实上，我们的对话将我们带入了跨领域具体和普遍的创作过程的领域，当然包括音乐，但也包括写作、电影、科学，以及基本上所有新的原创思想、想法和任何事物的生产都变得重要的领域。
Our conversation ventures from abstract themes, such as what is creativity and where does it stem from, to the more concrete, everyday tool-based approaches to creativity, including those that Rick himself uses and that he's seen other people use to great success.
我们的对话从抽象主题（例如什么是创造力以及它从何而来）到更具体的、基于日常工具的创造力方法（包括 Rick 本人使用的方法以及他看到其他人使用这些方法取得巨大成功的方法）。
That took us down some incredible avenues, ranging from a discussion about the subconscious to how the subconscious interacts with our conscious mind, and how the subconscious and conscious mind interact with nature around us and within us.
这让我们走上了一些令人难以置信的道路，从关于潜意识的讨论到潜意识如何与我们的意识相互作用，以及潜意识和意识如何与我们周围和我们内部的自然相互作用。
Indeed, our conversation got rather scientific at times, but all with an eye and an ear toward understanding the practical tools that any and all of us can use in order to access the creative process.
事实上，我们的谈话有时变得相当科学，但我们都用眼睛和耳朵去理解我们所有人都可以使用的实用工具来进入创作过程。
We also spent some time talking about Rick's new book, which is all about creativity and ways to access creativity.
我们还花了一些时间讨论里克的新书，这本书都是关于创造力和获得创造力的方法。
The title of the book is "The Creative Act: A Way of Being" by Rick Rubin.
这本书的标题是《创造性行为：一种存在方式》，作者：Rick Rubin。
This is a book that I've now read three times from cover to cover, and I'm now reading it a fourth time because it is so rich with wisdom and information that I'm applying in multiple domains of my life.
这本书我已经从头到尾读了三遍，现在我正在读第四遍，因为它充满了智慧和信息，我可以将其应用到我生活的多个领域。
Not just my work, but my everyday life.
不仅仅是我的工作，还有我的日常生活。
I cannot recommend it highly enough.
我极力推荐它。
Rick has an incredible ability to translate his understanding of the creative process in a way that is meaningful for anybody.
里克拥有令人难以置信的能力，能够以对任何人都有意义的方式转化他对创作过程的理解。
So if you're in music, if you're a musician, it will certainly be meaningful for you, but it is not about music.
所以如果你从事音乐，如果你是一名音乐家，这对你来说肯定是有意义的，但它与音乐无关。
It is about the creative process.
这是关于创作过程的。
And so whether or not you consider yourself somebody creative or not, or whether or not you seek to be more creative, Rick's book and today's conversation sheds light on what I believe to be the fundamental features of what makes us human beings.
因此，无论你是否认为自己有创造力，或者无论你是否寻求变得更有创造力，里克的书和今天的谈话都揭示了我认为是我们人类的基本特征。
That is, what allows us, unlike other animals, to look out on the landscape around us, to examine our inner landscape, and to come up with truly novel ideas that thrill us, entertain us, entertain other people, scare us, make us laugh, make us cry.
也就是说，与其他动物不同，我们能够观察周围的风景，审视我们的内心世界，并提出真正新颖的想法，让我们兴奋、娱乐我们、娱乐其他人、吓到我们、让我们笑、让我们哭。
All the things that make life rich are essentially contained in the creative process, and to be able to sit down and learn from the Rick Rubin how the creative process emerges in him, and his observations about how it can best emerge in others is and was truly a gift.
所有让生活变得丰富的东西本质上都包含在创作过程中，能够坐下来向 Rick Rubin 学习创作过程是如何在他身上出现的，以及他对如何最好地在他人身上出现的观察，这确实是一种天赋。
So I'm excited to share his knowledge with you today.
所以我很高兴今天与您分享他的知识。
One thing that you'll quickly come to notice about today's conversation is that Rick is incredibly generous with his knowledge about the creative process.
在今天的谈话中，您很快就会注意到的一件事是，里克对创作过程的了解非常慷慨。
In fact, he very graciously and spontaneously, I should add, offered to answer your questions about creativity.
事实上，我应该补充一点，他非常亲切、自发地主动提出回答你关于创造力的问题。
So if you have questions about the creative process for Rick, please put those in the comment section on YouTube.
因此，如果您对 Rick 的创作过程有疑问，请在 YouTube 的评论部分提出。
And in order to make those questions a bit easier for me to find, please put "Question for Rick Rubin" in capitals, then colon or dash, whichever you choose, and then put your question there.
为了让我更容易找到这些问题，请将“Rick Rubin 的问题”大写，然后是冒号或破折号（无论您选择哪种），然后将您的问题放在那里。
I do ask that you keep the questions relatively short so that I can ask Rick as many of those questions as possible.
我确实要求您将问题保持得相对简短，以便我可以向里克询问尽可能多的问题。
We will record that conversation, and we will post it as a clip on the Huberman Lab Clips channel.
我们将记录该对话，并将其作为剪辑发布在 Huberman Lab Clips 频道上。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
There is so much NFL on ESPN right now.
ESPN 上现在有很多 NFL 节目。
"Monday Night Football", plus pre-game and post-game.
“周一足球之夜”，以及赛前和赛后。
"NFL Live", "NFL Prime Time".
“NFL直播”、“NFL黄金时间”。
Everything you need to stay on top of every game, every week.
每周掌握每场比赛所需的一切。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Unbelievable!
难以置信！
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
And now NFL Network is on the ESPN app.
现在 NFL Network 已登陆 ESPN 应用程序。
More football, more coverage, more ways to watch.
更多足球比赛、更多报道、更多观看方式。
Football's on all season long on ESPN and streaming on the ESPN app.
ESPN 提供整个赛季的足球赛事直播，并通过 ESPN 应用程序进行直播。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And now for my discussion with Rick Rubin.
现在我与里克·鲁宾进行讨论。
Great to have you here today, Rick.
很高兴今天你能来到这里，瑞克。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Thank you for having me.
谢谢你有我。
It's a pleasure.
我的荣幸。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So of all the topics in science, and in particular in neuroscience, I confess that creativity is the most difficult one to capture.
因此，在科学的所有主题中，特别是在神经科学中，我承认创造力是最难捕捉的一个。
Because, you can find papers, scientific studies, that is, on convergent thinking versus divergent thinking, and there are definitions to these, and they take on different forms.
因为，你可以找到关于聚合思维与发散思维的论文、科学研究，这些都有定义，而且有不同的形式。
But in a strict definition form, it seems that creativity has something to do with either rearranging existing elements or coming up with new elements.
但从严格的定义形式来看，创造力似乎与重新排列现有元素或提出新元素有关。
But as I went into your book, which I've done twice, I've read it twice, and by the way, I feel so blessed and honored to have gotten an early copy from you, or a final copy early, that is.
但当我读到你的书时，我已经读了两遍了，顺便说一句，我感到非常幸运和荣幸，能够从你那里得到一本早期的副本，或者说是早期的最终副本。
But having gone through it twice, I'm now convinced that there may not actually be an internal source of creativity ...
但经历了两次之后，我现在确信，创造力的内部来源可能并不存在……
that exists on its own.
它是独立存在的。
Right?
正确的？
And the example that you give that, for me, really is serving as an anchor, and tell me if I'm wrong here, is this idea that ideas and creativity are a little bit like a cloud.
你举的例子对我来说确实是一个锚点，请告诉我我是否错了，那就是想法和创造力有点像云。
If you look at it at one moment, you might think that it looks like one thing, or it has a certain shape and texture.
如果你在某个时刻看它，你可能会认为它看起来像一件事，或者它具有某种形状和纹理。
But then you look at it a moment later, it could be quite a bit different, and if you look at it an hour later, it very well could be gone.
但过一会儿你再看它，它可能会有很大不同，如果你一个小时后看它，它很可能就消失了。
And the reason I think that serves as such a powerful hook for me to think about creativity, and why I think neuroscientists, and scientists in general, have never actually captured a way to even talk about creativity, stems from somebody that you knew in person, but that, as you know, I greatly admire.
我认为这对我思考创造力有如此强大的吸引力，以及为什么我认为神经科学家和一般科学家从未真正找到一种方式来谈论创造力，这源于你亲自认识的某个人，但正如你所知，我非常钦佩。
I don't have many heroes, but I would put Joe Strummer among the short list of heroes that I have.
我的英雄不多，但我会把乔·斯特鲁默（Joe Strummer）列入我拥有的英雄名单中。
And I remember once an interview with him, fairly disjointed.
我记得有一次对他的采访，语无伦次。
He was off on different tangents that I couldn't follow.
他偏离了我无法理解的不同切线。
But at one point, he just blurted out that if you have an idea, you have to write it down.
但有一次，他脱口而出，如果你有一个想法，你就必须把它写下来。
And you may end up throwing it away, but if you wait, it will be gone.
你最终可能会把它扔掉，但如果你等待，它就会消失。
And I remember that, and as a consequence, I have a whole system that I use to try and capture ideas.
我记得这一点，因此，我有一个完整的系统来尝试和捕捉想法。
But what are your thoughts on what Joe said, this cloud idea that comes up in one form in one area of the book, but then I think is thread throughout the book in different ways?
但是，您对乔所说的有何看法，这种云概念以一种形式出现在本书的一个区域中，但我认为以不同的方式贯穿整本书？
How did that come to you, and how does it serve you in trying to, I don't want to say extract, but trying to access creativity?
你是怎么想到这一点的？它对你尝试（我不想说摘录）但尝试获得创造力有什么帮助？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I think the best way to think about it is like a dream.
我认为最好的思考方式就是像做梦一样。
It's like if you think about your dreams, they don't necessarily make sense.
就像如果你思考你的梦想，它们不一定有意义。
When you wake up, you might remember part, but not the whole thing.
当你醒来时，你可能会记得一部分，但不记得全部。
Then if you start writing them down, they'll come back, and they may not make sense to you.
然后，如果你开始把它们写下来，它们就会回来，但它们对你来说可能没有意义。
They'll be a series of abstract images.
它们将是一系列抽象图像。
And maybe someday in the future, you'll be able to look back and understand what they mean, and maybe not.
也许在未来的某一天，你能够回顾并理解它们的含义，也许不能。
And that's sort of how the art-making process works, is like we're making things, and we're looking for a feeling in ourselves.
这就是艺术创作过程的运作方式，就像我们在制作东西一样，我们在寻找自己的感觉。
And it could be a feeling of excitement or enthusiasm, a feeling of interest, a feeling of curiosity, I want to know more, a feeling of leaning forward.
它可能是一种兴奋或热情的感觉，一种感兴趣的感觉，一种好奇的感觉，一种我想知道更多的感觉，一种向前倾的感觉。
And we're following that energy in our body when we feel there's something here.
当我们感觉这里有东西时，我们就会追踪体内的能量。
There's something here.
这里有东西。
I want to know more.
我想了解更多。
I want to know more.
我想了解更多。
I want to know more.
我想了解更多。
But I'll say it's not an intellectual process.
但我会说这不是一个智力过程。
It's a different thing.
这是另一回事。
That's why it's hard even to talk about it because it's so elusive.
这就是为什么甚至很难谈论它，因为它是如此难以捉摸。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Recently, I was listening to a podcast by our friend Lex Fridman.
最近，我正在听我们的朋友 Lex Fridman 的播客。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think it was an episode with Balaji Srinivasan, with Balaji, who's an investor-type guy, thinker-type guy.
我认为这是巴拉吉·斯里尼瓦桑（Balaji Srinivasan）的一集，巴拉吉是一个投资者型的人，一个思想家型的人。
This is like an eight-hour episode.
这就像一个八小时的剧集。
He says something at the beginning that I'd love your thoughts on.
他一开始说了一些我很想听听你的想法的事情。
He said, "Look, we can train a rat to lever press every other time, or to expect reward on every even number press, or every odd number press, or even every fifth number press.
他说：“看，我们可以训练老鼠每隔一段时间按下一次杠杆，或者在每次按下偶数数字、或每一次奇数数字、甚至每按下五个数字时期待奖励。
But a human and a rat can't do that for prime number presses." You can't actually train that.
但人类和老鼠无法在质数按下时做到这一点。”你实际上无法训练它。
And then you think about the reward systems and the way that we follow life from when we get up until we go to sleep.
然后你会想到奖励系统以及我们从起床到睡觉的生活方式。
And what he said is the fact that we can't do that means that we may not actually be in touch with the best schedules of doing things.
他所说的是，我们无法做到这一点，这意味着我们实际上可能没有掌握做事的最佳时间表。
Like every time I'm thirsty, I take a sip.
就像每次口渴时我都会喝一口。
I assume that's the right way to do it, but it might not be optimal, right?
我认为这是正确的方法，但它可能不是最佳的，对吗？
Optimal for whatever purpose.
最适合任何目的。
When I was reading your book, I was thinking about there's a set of things to follow, things to pay attention to, you talk about this, things to access, that none of the creative process comes from just within us.
当我读你的书时，我在想有一系列的事情要遵循，要注意的事情，你谈到这个，要访问的事情，没有一个创造性的过程来自我们内部。
It can, but it's always being fed by things outside of it.
它可以，但它总是受到外界事物的滋养。
And so what I started to do is the second time I read through the book was think about it through the lens of what Balaji was saying was that there may not even be a language for this thing that we call accessing creativity.
所以我开始做的是，当我第二次读这本书时，我从巴拉吉所说的角度思考，甚至可能没有一种语言可以描述我们所说的“获得创造力”。
There's a process, but that language in the form of words is a little bit like trying to use even numbers to try and access prime numbers.
有一个过程，但是单词形式的语言有点像尝试使用偶数来尝试访问素数。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The math becomes so convoluted-
数学变得如此复杂——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that we end up in a conversation like this where I'm confident we can get to the kernels of it because what's remarkable about the book is that you do.
我们最终会进行这样的对话，我相信我们能够触及其核心，因为这本书的非凡之处在于您做到了。
You show and inform the process.
您展示并告知该过程。
But there may not be a English or any other language for saying, "Do this, then this, then this, then this, and you'll have something of creative value."
但可能没有英语或任何其他语言可以说：“做这个，然后这个，然后这个，然后这个，你就会得到一些具有创造性价值的东西。”
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Does that capture it?
这捕捉到了吗？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
I think language is insufficient to drill down on creativity.
我认为语言不足以深入挖掘创造力。
It's closer to magic than it is science.
它比科学更接近魔法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So when kids come into the world, do you think that they have better access to this creative process than we do as adults?
那么，当孩子来到这个世界时，您认为他们比我们成年人更能接触到这个创造性的过程吗？
Because we start to impart rule plays and books like will it get likes, will people like it, but also all the things that are available to us that we're not paying attention to, like the texture of this table, right?
因为我们开始传授规则游戏和书籍，比如它会得到喜欢吗？人们会喜欢它，而且还有我们可以使用但我们没有注意到的所有东西，比如这张桌子的纹理，对吧？
We're discarding things systematically.
我们正在系统地丢弃东西。
We get, quote-unquote, "set in our ways." Do you think kids are just by definition and by design more creative than adults?
我们得到了，引述不引述，“设定我们的方式”。您是否认为孩子从定义和设计上就比成人更有创造力？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
Kids are open, and they have no baggage They don't have any belief system.
孩子们很开放，他们没有包袱，他们没有任何信仰体系。
They don't know how things are supposed to work.
他们不知道事情应该如何运作。
They just see what is.
他们只是看到是什么。
And if we pay attention to what is, we learn much more than if we...
如果我们关注现状，我们会学到比……更多的东西。
Most of us select from an endless number of data points available to us, as a species, to make sure that we don't die, and to procreate, and to feed ourselves are probably the primary functions first.
作为一个物种，我们大多数人都从无数可用的数据点中进行选择，以确保我们不会死亡，生育和养活自己可能是首要的功能。
And then we learn things about what's right and what's wrong, and we learn things about how to do certain things, or we're inspired by someone who makes something we love and we want to do it the way they do it.
然后我们了解什么是对的，什么是错的，我们了解如何做某些事情，或者我们受到那些制作我们喜欢的东西的人的启发，我们想按照他们的方式去做。
And all of those things undermine the purity of the creative process.
所有这些都破坏了创作过程的纯粹性。
They can be tools to build your skill set to be able to do it yourself.
它们可以成为培养您独立完成技能的工具。
If you're a singer, you might imitate a singer you really like for a while to get good at it, and then eventually come to find your own voice.
如果你是一名歌手，你可能会模仿一个你真正喜欢的歌手一段时间来擅长，然后最终找到自己的声音。
It doesn't always start with your own voice.
它并不总是从你自己的声音开始。
But if you're three years old or five years old and you try singing, you're not singing like anyone else.
但如果你在三岁或五岁的时候尝试唱歌，你就不会像其他人那样唱歌。
You're singing with your own voice.
你用自己的声音唱歌。
And when you make something, you're making it based on not knowing.
当你做某事时，你是在不知道的基础上做的。
And I think I had the advantage early in my career of starting making music without any experience, which was helpful because I didn't know what rules I was breaking.
我认为我在职业生涯早期的优势是在没有任何经验的情况下开始制作音乐，这很有帮助，因为我不知道自己违反了哪些规则。
And so it wasn't intentional breaking of rules.
所以这并不是故意违反规则。
I just did what seemed right to me.
我只是做了我认为正确的事情。
But I didn't realize that I was doing things that other people wouldn't do.
但我没有意识到我正在做别人不会做的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There is this idea that there are no new ideas.
有这样的想法，就是没有新的想法。
I sort of disagree, because every once in a while I'll see or hear something that at least seems different enough.
我有点不同意，因为每隔一段时间我就会看到或听到一些至少看起来足够不同的东西。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I think it's a new combination of existing ideas presented in a new way.
我认为这是以新方式呈现现有想法的新组合。
I think that's how it works.
我想这就是它的运作方式。
I don't know.
我不知道。
But I will say it does seem like the things that are most interesting to me have a series of familiar elements joined together in a way that it's creating something that I've never seen before.
但我要说的是，对我来说最有趣的事情确实是由一系列熟悉的元素以某种方式结合在一起，从而创造出我以前从未见过的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You mentioned that when you are close to or you see hints of creativity that is of real value, that it's a feeling.
您提到，当您接近或看到具有真正价值的创造力的暗示时，这是一种感觉。
And I also believe that the body is a great source of information.
我也相信身体是信息的重要来源。
Which once people realize that the brain, of course, is in the skull, but the nervous system extends everywhere in the body, the whole mind-body thing just falls away.
一旦人们意识到大脑当然在头骨中，但神经系统延伸到身体的各个部位，整个身心的事情就会消失。
Philosophers have argued about this forever, but it's a silly argument.
哲学家们一直在争论这个问题，但这是一个愚蠢的争论。
It's also true that, God forbid, I were to amputate all my limbs, have them amputated, I'd fundamentally still be me.
确实，上帝保佑，我要截掉我所有的四肢，截掉它们，我基本上还是我。
Right?
正确的？
The same is not true if we took out a big enough chunk of my brain and I still survived, I would be a fundamentally different human being.
但情况并非如此，如果我们取出足够大的大脑块而我仍然活下来，我将是一个根本不同的人。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd still have the same name and identity and Social Security number, but I would behave very differently.
我仍然拥有相同的姓名、身份和社会安全号码，但我的行为却截然不同。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Who knows?
谁知道？
Maybe better.
也许更好。
The signals from the body we know or at least we assume are pretty generic.
我们知道或至少我们认为来自身体的信号非常通用。
I can think of 50 different ways or 100 ways that we could talk about creativity today, and we could define it and redefine it and carve it up and serve it up like sushi in a bunch of different ways.
我可以想到今天我们可以用 50 种或 100 种不同的方式来谈论创造力，我们可以定义它并重新定义它，将它切碎并以多种不同的方式像寿司一样提供它。
But the body sends signals that most of us, we have a kind of coarse understanding of.
但我们大多数人对身体发出的信号有一种粗略的理解。
It's like, oh, my stomach hurts, or my stomach feels good, or I'm not sensing my stomach, or, oh, that feels good.
就像，哦，我的胃疼，或者我的胃感觉很好，或者我感觉不到我的胃，或者，哦，那感觉很好。
It feels warm.
感觉很温暖。
It feels cold.
感觉很冷。
But most of us aren't trained in understanding how to interpret those signals.
但我们大多数人都没有接受过理解如何解释这些信号的训练。
So it's almost like you have a few vowels, a few syllables, and there isn't a lot more.
所以就好像你只有几个元音、几个音节，就没有更多了。
Whereas when we talk about our thoughts and our experiences, depending on how hyper-verbal somebody is and how much emphasis they put on different sounds, it's kind of near infinite, right?
然而，当我们谈论我们的想法和经历时，取决于某人的语言能力以及他们对不同声音的重视程度，这几乎是无限的，对吧？
Not infinite, but near infinite.
不是无限，但接近无限。
So for you personally, when you know that you're on the end of a thread of creativity, maybe you're listening to an artist or you're hearing something and you're like, there, and your antennae start to deflect in a certain way, right?
所以对你个人来说，当你知道你正处于创造力的尽头时，也许你正在听一位艺术家的音乐，或者你正在听到一些东西，你就像在那里，你的触角开始以某种方式偏转，对吗？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you feel that in your body as a recognizable sensation, or is it a thought and a sensation?
你在你的身体中感受到这种感觉是一种可识别的感觉，还是一种想法和感觉？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
It's a feeling in my body.
这是我身体里的一种感觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is it localized?
是本地化的吗？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
No. It's a feeling of, I would say it's like a surge of energy.
不，我想说，这是一种能量涌动的感觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you remember the first time you experienced that?
你还记得第一次经历这种事是什么时候吗？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Probably hearing The Beatles when I was three or four years old.
可能在我三四岁的时候听过披头士乐队。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Three or four years old?
三四岁？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is there something wrong with me that The Beatles have never done it for me?
难道我有什么问题，披头士乐队从来没有为我做过吗？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
No, maybe you just weren't exposed at the right time in the right way.
不，也许你只是没有在正确的时间以正确的方式暴露。
There's no right or wrong way, and everyone-- I can love The Beatles and you can not, and we're both right.
方式没有对错之分，每个人——我可以爱披头士乐队，而你不能，我们都是对的。
There's not a-
没有一个——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
I'm glad we can still be friends.
我很高兴我们仍然可以成为朋友。
I was a little concerned.
我有点担心。
I was a little scared to ask you that question.
我有点害怕问你这个问题。
I know my taste in music is a little bit obscure and kind of fragmentary, but okay, good.
我知道我对音乐的品味有点晦涩和支离破碎，但好吧，很好。
I've always felt like, gosh, there must be something wrong with me.
我总觉得，天啊，我一定有什么问题。
I like their songs.
我喜欢他们的歌。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But there's no juice for me there.
但那里没有适合我的果汁。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I think maybe we'll watch, there was an eight-part series called "The Beatles Anthology," which is out of print, but I can try to find it somewhere, and we can watch that together, and-
我想也许我们会看，有一个名为“披头士乐队选集”的八集系列，它已经绝版了，但我可以尝试在某个地方找到它，我们可以一起看，然后-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay
好的
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
...
...
maybe that'll make the case for The Beatles.
也许这会为披头士乐队提供理由。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Yeah, but nothing against them.
是的，但没有什么可以反对他们。
It's just, and I'm always bothering you for a story, but Ramones, I saw that and I was like, wow, jeans, aviators, everyone had to change their last name to Ramone.
只是，我总是因为故事而打扰你，但是雷蒙斯，我看到了，我就想，哇，牛仔裤，飞行员，每个人都必须把姓氏改为雷蒙斯。
A lot of them hated each other.
他们中的很多人互相憎恨。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's so much drama in there, and three chords.
里面有很多戏剧性的东西，还有三个和弦。
But to me, it just was like, wow, kids from New York, that energy.
但对我来说，这就像，哇，来自纽约的孩子们，那种能量。
So I think different things for different people, right?
所以我对不同的人有不同的想法，对吗？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So that brings me to a question of when something feels creatively right, and you're sensing it, and you're there, let's say, in the studio, or maybe even you're listening to something that somebody sent you.
因此，这给我带来了一个问题，即什么时候感觉某些东西在创意上是正确的，并且你感觉到它，并且你在那里，比方说，在工作室里，或者甚至你正在听别人发给你的东西。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How do you translate that, given the absence of language?
在没有语言的情况下，你如何翻译它？
How do you translate that into a conversation with the artist?
您如何将其转化为与艺术家的对话？
And again, this could be about writing or comedy or science or podcasting for that matter.
再说一次，这可能是关于写作、喜剧、科学或播客。
How do you say, "Keep going that way," when they might not even recognize that they did it?
当他们甚至没有意识到自己这样做时，你如何说“继续那样做”？
And I'm guessing a lot of times they don't.
我猜很多时候他们不会。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah, sometimes they don't.
是的，有时他们不这样做。
It depends.
这取决于。
I'll try to be in a setting where, as we're talking about it, we can engage with it in that moment.
当我们谈论它时，我会尝试处于一个我们可以在那一刻参与其中的环境。
So it's not much good-- let's say I was producing your new record, and you played me something, and I had some thoughts about it.
所以这不太好——假设我正在制作你的新唱片，你给我播放了一些东西，我对此有一些想法。
It wouldn't be so helpful for me to tell you what those were.
告诉你那些是什么对我来说没有多大帮助。
It'd be better for us to wait till we were in a place where we could try things and see where it goes.
对我们来说，最好等到我们可以尝试一些事情并看看它会走向何方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
So the first thing is, I wouldn't rely on language to do it.
所以第一件事是，我不会依赖语言来做到这一点。
It would be more of making a suggestion of something that's actionable.
这更多的是提出一些可行的建议。
We try it, and then we have more data, and either we're moving in a good direction, or we're moving towards it or away from it, and we never know.
我们尝试一下，然后我们获得更多数据，要么我们正在朝着好的方向前进，要么我们正在朝着它前进，或者远离它，但我们永远不知道。
And so it's always an experiment.
所以这始终是一个实验。
And maybe a simple way to talk about it would be like if I gave you two dishes of food and asked you to taste them and tell me which one you like better.
也许一种简单的谈论方式就像我给你两道菜，让你尝一尝，然后告诉我你更喜欢哪一道菜。
Usually, it's pretty straightforward.
通常，这非常简单。
You know when you have two choices which you like better.
你知道当你有两种选择时你更喜欢哪一种。
And I think most creativity can be boiled down to that.
我认为大多数创造力都可以归结为这一点。
That's very different than, I wonder how this is going to perform on certain social media platforms.
这与我想知道这在某些社交媒体平台上的表现有很大不同。
That's different than-
这不同于——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
...
...
when I'm tasting these two things, which is the one I want to finish eating?
当我品尝这两种东西时，我想吃完哪一种？
And if I were to say, "Hmm, I like this one better, but it needs a little salt," and then put a little salt on it.
如果我说，“嗯，我更喜欢这个，但它需要一点盐”，然后在上面放一点盐。
It's like, "Hmm, maybe I put too much salt." And you know when you taste it .
就像，“嗯，也许我放太多盐了。”当你尝到它的时候你就知道了。
It's that simple.
就是这么简单。
Being in tune enough with ourselves to really know how we feel in the face of knowing that other people might feel very differently, which is part of the challenge.
与自己保持足够的协调，真正了解我们在知道其他人可能有非常不同的感受时的感受，这是挑战的一部分。
It's like if everyone tells you A, A, A, A, A, A, A, and you listen, and you're like, "That's B." As an artist, it's important to be able to say, "To me, it's B." And it's a disconnect because so much of when we go to school, it's to get us to follow the rules.
就好像每个人都告诉你 A、A、A、A、A、A、A，而你听了之后就会说：“那就是 B。”作为一名艺术家，能够说“对我来说，这是 B”很重要。这是一种脱节，因为我们上学的大部分时间都是为了让我们遵守规则。
And in art, it's different because the rules are there as a scaffolding to be chipped away as need be.
在艺术中，情况有所不同，因为规则就像脚手架一样，可以根据需要被拆除。
Sometimes they're helpful, sometimes they're not.
有时它们很有帮助，有时却没有。
And sometimes we'll even impose our own rules to give something its shape.
有时我们甚至会强加自己的规则来赋予某些东西其形状。
So we're going to make a painting, but we're only going to use green and red are the only colors we're allowed to use.
所以我们要画一幅画，但我们只会使用绿色和红色，这是我们唯一被允许使用的颜色。
We decide that in advance.
我们事先就决定了。
And then how do we solve the problem knowing all we have is green and red?
那么我们如何解决知道我们只有绿色和红色的问题呢？
Because otherwise, if there's an infinite number of choices, anything can be anything.
因为否则的话，如果有无限多种选择，那么任何事情都可以是任何事情。
Sometimes more choices is not better.
有时候选择并不是越多越好。
So limiting your palette to something manageable forces you to solve problems in a different way.
因此，将你的调色板限制在易于管理的范围内会迫使你以不同的方式解决问题。
Now in our digital age, music-wise, you can make anything digitally.
现在，在我们的数字时代，就音乐而言，您可以数字化制作任何东西。
There was a time when if you didn't have a guitar in the studio, you couldn't record guitar, or if you couldn't hire an orchestra, there couldn't be orchestra on your recording.
曾经有一段时间，如果你的录音室里没有吉他，你就无法录制吉他，或者如果你无法聘请管弦乐队，那么你的录音中就不可能有管弦乐队。
Now you can just call any of those things up.
现在您可以调用其中任何一个。
So there's infinite choices, and infinite choices don't necessarily lead to better compositions or better final works.
所以有无限的选择，无限的选择并不一定会带来更好的作品或更好的最终作品。
Understanding how you feel in the face of other voices without second-guessing yourself is probably the single most important thing to practice as an artist, or skill set to develop as an artist, is to know how you feel and own your feelings.
理解自己在面对其他声音时的感受，而不是事后怀疑自己，可能是作为一名艺术家练习的最重要的事情，或者作为一名艺术家发展的技能，就是了解自己的感受并拥有自己的感受。
And the key to that is not, "I know, so I know what's right for you." It doesn't work that way.
关键不是“我知道，所以我知道什么适合你”。事实并非如此。
It's just, I know for me, and the reason I chose to be an artist is to demonstrate this is how I see it.
只是，我知道，我选择成为一名艺术家的原因是为了证明我是如何看待它的。
If I'm undermining my taste for some commercial idea, it defeats the whole purpose of doing this.
如果我破坏了我对某些商业想法的品味，那就违背了这样做的全部目的。
That's not what this process is about.
这不是这个过程的目的。
This process is I'm doing me, and I'm showing you who I am, and you can like it or not, but either way, this is still how I see it.
这个过程就是我在做我自己，我在向你展示我是谁，你可以喜欢也可以不喜欢，但不管怎样，这仍然是我的看法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love that because in science, having trained graduate students, having been a graduate student, I was very blessed to have mentors.
我喜欢这一点，因为在科学领域，我培养过研究生，曾经是一名研究生，我很幸运能有导师。
One of who was a real iconoclast.
其中一位是真正的反传统者。
He's dead now.
他现在死了。
Actually, all my advisors are dead.
事实上，我所有的顾问都死了。
Suicide, cancer.
自杀，癌症。
The joke is, "You don't want me to work for you." So they all had a morbid sense of humor, so they're laughing about this someplace right now.
笑话是：“你不想让我为你工作。”所以他们都有一种病态的幽默感，所以他们现在正在某个地方嘲笑这件事。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I thought you were going to say they all ate the poisoned mushrooms.
我以为你会说他们都吃了毒蘑菇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No. But the last one said to me, "You're the common denominator, Andrew." And I thought, "Oh my goodness." And he said, "Kind of just kidding, but not really."
不，但最后一个对我说：“你是共同点，安德鲁。”我想：“天哪。”他说：“有点开玩笑，但不是真的。”
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So that's a little bit eerie.
所以这有点奇怪。
But in any case, his name was Ben, he always said, "The one thing I can't teach is taste, and the one predictor I have of the people who will never develop it are the ones who are perfectionists that filter their perfection through the feedback of others." He was always looking for the person that was putting up a little bit of a middle finger to feedback.
但无论如何，他的名字叫本，他总是说，“我无法教的一件事就是品味，而我对那些永远不会培养品味的人的唯一预测是那些完美主义者，他们通过别人的反馈来过滤自己的完美。”他总是在寻找愿意竖起中指来提供反馈的人。
Not so much that they would get things wrong-
不至于让他们弄错——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because you can be badly wrong in science.
因为在科学上你可能会犯严重的错误。
You can be wrong for the right reasons, but you can also be wrong for the wrong reasons.
你可能因为正确的原因而犯错，但也可能因为错误的原因而犯错。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But people that just had almost a compulsion to do it their way or to believe in what they were doing, and I'm hearing that in what you're describing.
但是人们几乎有一种强迫性地按照自己的方式去做或相信自己正在做的事情，我从你的描述中听到了这一点。
I also think that there's something about the human empathic process or the emotional process where when we see somebody doing something and they seem to really not be paying attention to what anyone else is doing-
我还认为，人类的移情过程或情感过程中有一些东西，当我们看到某人在做某事时，他们似乎并没有注意到其他人在做什么——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
like I said, the crazy person on the street is one version of it where we go, they're just in their experience, and it's just crazy.
就像我说的，街上疯狂的人是我们去的地方的一个版本，他们只是在他们的经历中，这就是疯狂。
But when somebody seems to be enjoying themselves or the emotion seems to be real, I think there are a good fraction of people who feel a kind of gravitational pull, and they go, "Yeah, that." And the best example I have of this is I remember growing up in the skateboard thing, we were the first to start doing the baggy, sagging the clothes thing, and we got teased endlessly one year in school.
但是，当有人似乎很享受自己或这种情绪似乎是真实的时，我认为有很大一部分人会感受到一种引力，他们会说，“是的，就是这样。”最好的例子是我记得在滑板运动中长大，我们是第一个开始穿宽松、下垂的衣服的人，有一年我们在学校被无休止地嘲笑。
Then there was a bunch of hip-hop that came out, and guys were sagging their jeans or their shorts.
然后出现了一堆嘻哈音乐，人们都松垮了牛仔裤或短裤。
Next year we come back, and the very same people who were making fun of us were all doing it, and that's when it clicked for me.
明年我们回来时，那些取笑我们的人都在这么做，就在那时，我突然灵光一现。
I was like, most people don't actually know what they like.
我当时想，大多数人实际上并不知道自己喜欢什么。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They like what they like because of the certainty of the people that they like.
他们喜欢自己喜欢的东西，因为他们喜欢的人很确定。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so the question then is, in this landscape of creative stuff, what's real?
那么问题是，在这个充满创意的景观中，什么是真实的？
What's not real?
什么不是真实的？
It's almost like whoever can create the most convincing story at least captures a good fraction of audiences.
就好像谁能创造出最有说服力的故事，至少就能吸引一大部分观众。
But that's not what the creative artist needs to do.
但这不是创意艺术家需要做的。
They need to actually depart from that.
他们实际上需要偏离这一点。
Do I have that right?
我有这个权利吗？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Well, they're just two different things.
嗯，它们只是两个不同的东西。
Coming up with a story with the purpose of pleasing someone else is a skill set, but it's more of a commercial endeavor than an artistic endeavor.
以取悦别人为目的而创作故事是一种技能，但它更多的是一种商业努力，而不是艺术努力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's tactical.
这是战术性的。
Yeah.
是的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I was seeing it in your book, you describe, again, when you're thinking about the creative process as the cloud.
是的，我在你的书中看到了这一点，你再次描述，当你将创作过程视为云时。
For me, again, it just serves as such a powerful anchor.
对我来说，它再次充当了如此强大的锚。
And then I think about the biology, the neurobiology of strategy formation or strategy implementation, and then almost by sheer luck or miraculously, I turn a few pages later into the book and there's a description of how animals that are trying to accomplish something, eat, mate, find water, accomplish the requirements of living, it requires a narrow visual focus.
然后我想到了生物学，策略形成或策略实施的神经生物学，然后几乎纯粹是运气或奇迹般，我后来翻了几页书，里面描述了动物如何试图完成某些事情，吃饭，交配，寻找水，完成生活的要求，它需要狭窄的视觉焦点。
This is something my lab is kind of obsessed with, and I've been obsessed with.
这是我的实验室痴迷的事情，我也一直痴迷于此。
And in that more narrow visual focus, we know that the playbook becomes more narrow.
在更狭窄的视觉焦点中，我们知道剧本变得更狭窄。
The rule set is more narrow.
规则集更窄。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now, at some point, in order to come up with a new creative idea, that means broadening vision is essential in some way, or broadening thinking.
现在，在某些时候，为了想出一个新的创意，这意味着在某种程度上拓宽视野，或者拓宽思维是必不可少的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Well, it could either be a broadening or a narrowing, but it's changing the aperture from the standard.
嗯，它可能是扩大或缩小，但它改变了标准的光圈。
The reason we do this is to present something new that maybe you already knew but didn't know you knew it.
我们这样做的原因是要呈现一些新的东西，也许你已经知道但不知道你知道它。
And for that to be the case, you have to be looking at it.
为了实现这一点，你必须关注它。
It's not unlike what a comedian does.
这与喜剧演员的做法没什么不同。
A comedian makes you laugh.
喜剧演员会让你开怀大笑。
Usually what they're saying, it's outrageous, but you know that it's right, just no one says it that way or no one has said it that way before.
通常他们所说的都是令人愤慨的，但你知道这是对的，只是没有人这么说过，或者以前没有人这么说过。
But it's always the truth in it that makes it funny.
但其中的真相总是让它变得有趣。
It's like that.
就是这样。
It's the same idea as recognizing something that seems really obvious once you see it, but seems like nobody else sees it or no one else points it out.
这与认识到一些一旦你看到它就显得非常明显，但似乎没有其他人看到它或没有其他人指出它的想法是一样的。
And I feel like science is like that, too.
我觉得科学也是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, absolutely.
哦，绝对是。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Because how much of science, once the light flashes over your head and it's like, I got it, it just seems like, well, we knew that forever.
因为有多少科学，一旦光芒在你的头上闪过，你就会感觉，我明白了，就好像，好吧，我们永远都知道这一点。
No one knew it, but do you know what I'm saying?
没人知道，但你知道我在说什么吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, absolutely.
哦，绝对是。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
It's like it's so obvious.
好像是那么明显一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
It's so obvious.
太明显了。
And I think another superpower of artists is this accepting we don't know anything.
我认为艺术家的另一个超能力是接受我们一无所知。
When we think we know things, that also limits our world.
当我们认为自己了解事物时，这也限制了我们的世界。
We think we know.
我们认为我们知道。
It's only like this.
也只有这样了。
This is all that's possible.
这就是一切可能的事。
We're mice in this little box.
我们是这个小盒子里的老鼠。
But in reality, who's to say that's the case?
但事实上，谁能保证事实就是如此呢？
We could take all of what we believe in science now and decide to throw all of that away and start from scratch, and we'd probably create a whole different one.
我们可以接受我们现在相信的所有科学知识，并决定抛弃所有这些并从头开始，我们可能会创造一个完全不同的科学。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
There is so much NFL on ESPN right now.
ESPN 上现在有很多 NFL 节目。
Monday Night Football, plus pre-game and post-game.
周一橄榄球之夜，以及赛前和赛后。
NFL Live, NFL Prime Time.
NFL 直播，NFL 黄金时间。
Everything you need to stay on top of every game, every week.
每周掌握每场比赛所需的一切。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Unbelievable.
难以置信。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
And now NFL Network is on the ESPN app.
现在 NFL Network 已登陆 ESPN 应用程序。
More football, more coverage, more ways to watch.
更多足球比赛、更多报道、更多观看方式。
Football's on all season long on ESPN and streaming on the ESPN app.
ESPN 提供整个赛季的足球赛事直播，并通过 ESPN 应用程序进行直播。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In an offline conversation one time, you asked a good friend of mine who's been a guest on this podcast, Eddie Chang, who's chair of neurosurgery, and I would place him in the top 1% of neuroscientists.
有一次，在一次线下对话中，你问了我的一位好朋友，他是这个播客的嘉宾，Eddie Chang，神经外科主任，我认为他是神经科学家中前 1% 的人。
He's pulling speech out of people who are completely paralyzed with locked-in syndrome, et cetera.
他正在让那些因闭锁综合症等而完全瘫痪的人失去语言能力。
And you asked him what percentage of what's contained in medical textbooks and training-
你问他医学教科书和培训中所包含内容的百分比是多少-
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Today
今天
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
today-
今天-
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is-
是-
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
If you went to medical school today-
如果你今天去医学院-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
...
...
and you learned what was in the textbook, what percentage of that information is accurate and what percentage is not?
你了解了教科书上的内容，这些信息的准确率是多少，不准确的百分比是多少？
And he said, "Maybe half."
他说：“也许一半。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
And you asked, "And what is the consequence of that?" And he said, "Incalculable." And I completely agree.
你问：“那结果是什么？”他说：“无法估量。”我完全同意。
And I asked him a second time, and he still came up with the same answer, so that's a good sign.
我第二次问他，他仍然给出相同的答案，所以这是一个好兆头。
Reliability from experiment to the next is good.
从实验到下一次实验的可靠性都很好。
Yeah, I think that there is this idea that we really know things.
是的，我认为我们确实了解事物。
In science, we've observed amazing discoveries from chance.
在科学领域，我们偶然观察到了惊人的发现。
We've observed amazing discoveries from incredible bouts of hard work.
我们从令人难以置信的艰苦工作中观察到了惊人的发现。
In both cases, people were spending a lot of time in the lab.
在这两种情况下，人们都在实验室里度过了很多时间。
No one walked into the lab, saw something one day, and had a Nobel Prize-winning discovery or fundamental discovery.
没有人有一天走进实验室，看到一些东西，并获得诺贝尔奖的发现或基本发现。
They were all hanging out in lab a lot, just some of them came up with something that they didn't expect.
他们都经常在实验室闲逛，只是其中一些人想出了一些意想不到的东西。
Others were drilling toward an answer.
其他人正在努力寻找答案。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
And in all those cases, when the breakthroughs happen, I'm guessing, I don't know this, that considering we assume this information, then this discovery is true based on everything that came before it.
在所有这些情况下，当突破发生时，我猜测，我不知道这一点，考虑到我们假设这些信息，那么这个发现基于之前的一切都是正确的。
But if everything that came before it is wrong, then the discoveries are probably built on a...
但如果之前的一切都是错误的，那么这些发现可能是建立在……
Do you know what I'm saying?
你知道我在说什么吗？
It's like the context, everything that happens takes into account that the context that it's sitting in, it fits in that context.
就像上下文一样，发生的一切都会考虑到它所处的上下文，它适合该上下文。
Maybe that context isn't right.
也许这个上下文不正确。
Who knows?
谁知道？
We don't know.
我们不知道。
So I'm saying we're too close to most things in thinking when we think we know things, where there are a lot of assumptions that go into it, and that any new discoveries are essentially built on top of these beliefs.
所以我想说的是，当我们认为自己了解事物时，我们的思维方式与大多数事物太接近了，其中有很多假设，任何新发现本质上都是建立在这些信念之上的。
But they're beliefs.
但它们是信念。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I remember learning, of course, I listened to the Beastie Boys growing up.
嗯，我记得学习，当然，我是听着 Beastie Boys 长大的。
Who didn't?
谁没有？
I was a child of the '90s, and they were in the-- "Sabotage" was sort of an outgrowth of a skateboarding movie, like Spike Jonze and the girl movies, and those worlds, the Beastie Boys and skateboarding were really closely interwoven for a while.
我是一个 90 年代的孩子，他们所处的时代——“破坏”是滑板电影的产物，就像 Spike Jonze 和女孩电影一样，在那些世界里，Beastie Boys 和滑板确实紧密地交织在一起。
Some people know this, some people don't, and Spike sort of formed the bridge, and then Spike went off and started making more bigger movies that more people watch.
有些人知道这一点，有些人不知道，斯派克在某种程度上搭建了桥梁，然后斯派克开始制作更多更大的电影，让更多人观看。
But let's just use them as an example.
但我们仅以它们为例。
I heard you say once before that you guys were kind of joking around, like Beastie Boys, these guys doing hip hop, but it was like the hardcore scene in New York and punk rock scene, and it was sort of a joke.
我以前听你说过，你们有点开玩笑，就像 Beastie Boys 那样，这些家伙在唱嘻哈音乐，但这就像纽约的硬核场景和朋克摇滚场景，这有点像玩笑。
There were a lot of inside jokes.
里面有很多笑话。
When you were working together, was there the thought that people might love it, might hate it, or you just weren't paying attention at all?
当你们一起工作时，是否有想过人们可能喜欢它，可能讨厌它，或者你根本没有注意到？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Weren't paying attention at all.
根本没注意。
Never considered it.
从来没有考虑过。
There were no-- At that point in time, when we were making Licensed to Ill, hip hop music was a tiny underground thing.
那时，当我们制作 Licensed to Ill 时，嘻哈音乐还只是一个小小的地下音乐。
And no one making hip hop at that time thought it would ever mean anything.
当时没有人认为嘻哈音乐有任何意义。
It was not a realistic thought.
这不是一个现实的想法。
So we were making it really for our crazy friends, and that's it.
所以我们真的是为我们疯狂的朋友们制作的，仅此而已。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So do you think nowadays the fact that one can create something and quote unquote "release it quickly", I can put something out onto Twitter or Instagram now.
那么你认为现在人们可以创建一些东西并引用不带引号的“快速发布它”这一事实，我现在可以将一些东西发布到 Twitter 或 Instagram 上。
I could do it in 10 seconds from now, and I will get immediate feedback, which is external feedback, of course, but then I can iterate on the basis of that feedback.
从现在起我可以在 10 秒内完成，并且我会立即得到反馈，当然这是外部反馈，但随后我可以根据该反馈进行迭代。
Do you think that's problematic for the larger opportunity for creativity?
您认为这对于更大的创造力机会来说有问题吗？
In other words, if we were to go back 20 years or even 15 years, when the opportunity to create was certainly still there, but you really didn't know how it was going to land until you quote unquote "released it".
换句话说，如果我们回到20年前甚至15年前，那时创造的机会肯定仍然存在，但你真的不知道它会如何落地，直到你引用不带引号的“释放它”。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It seems to me there was more opportunity to stay in that magical rainforest that is the creativity itself.
在我看来，有更多的机会留在那个神奇的雨林里，这就是创造力本身。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I don't think it's wrong or right.
我不认为这是错误或正确的。
It's more information that you can use or not use and use it in a useful way, and you can make something and put it out, and people can not like it, and you're like, "Oop, they still don't get it.
这是更多的信息，你可以使用或不使用，并以有用的方式使用它，你可以制作一些东西并将其发布，人们可能不喜欢它，你会说，“哎呀，他们还是不明白。
Here, I got to go harder." Like, I got to go harder in that direction, not...
在这里，我必须更加努力。”就像，我必须朝那个方向更加努力，而不是......
Do you know what I'm saying?
你知道我在说什么吗？
It's like not to react away from information.
这就像对信息不做出反应一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Can be helpful.
可以有帮助。
It can be helpful when there could be different stories that happen at the same time where you're making something and you have an idea of what it is, and then other people engage with it and they have a different idea of what it is, and they like it for a different reason than you did, or dislike it for a reason different than the reason you like it.
当你在制作某样东西的同时发生不同的故事，并且你对它是什么有一个想法，然后其他人参与其中并且他们对它是什么有不同的想法，并且他们喜欢它的原因与你不同，或者出于与你喜欢它的原因不同的原因不喜欢它时，这会很有帮助。
We can't control any of those things.
我们无法控制这些事情。
The only part of it that we can control is how we relate to the thing that we make And any external information that undermines the clarity of that connection is probably bad for the art, is my guess.
我们唯一可以控制的部分是我们如何与我们制作的东西建立联系，我的猜测是，任何破坏这种联系清晰度的外部信息都可能对艺术不利。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
And again, I'm only saying this from my experience.
再说一遍，我只是根据我的经验这么说的。
I try to make things...
我尝试着做一些事情...
All I've ever tried to make was something I like or something that I felt like was missing as a fan that I wanted, and nobody was making it, so I'll make it.
我曾经尝试做的只是我喜欢的东西，或者我觉得作为我想要的粉丝所缺少的东西，而没有人能做到，所以我会做到。
But it was always in the service of, "I love this thing.
但它总是服务于“我喜欢这个东西。
I want something like this.
我想要这样的东西。
No one else is making one.
没有其他人在制作。
I have to make one."
我必须做一个。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
It's beautiful because the word that keeps coming to mind is this, it's almost like a compulsion.
它很美，因为我脑海中不断浮现的词就是这个，它几乎就像一种强迫症。
There are other options of ways to be and to behave and to function and work in life, but if something's a compulsion, it yanks us away from those other opportunities just enough that we have to get back to it.
在生活中，存在、行为、运作和工作的方式还有其他选择，但如果某件事是一种强迫，它就会把我们从其他机会中夺走，足以让我们不得不回到它。
You've talked before about, and you talk in the book, this notion of the source.
您之前已经谈到过，并且在书中也谈到过这种来源的概念。
And to me, again, I can't help but put my neuroscientist lens on this, I think of the source as not one brain area, but some function within the brain where we are in touch with our bodily signals, like what feels right, what doesn't.
对我来说，再次，我忍不住把我的神经科学家的镜头放在这一点上，我认为来源不是一个大脑区域，而是大脑内的一些功能，我们在这些功能中与我们的身体信号联系，比如什么感觉正确，什么感觉不正确。
Sort of like tasting the two foods.
有点像品尝两种食物。
I love that example.
我喜欢这个例子。
And that it's a playbook that is far more vast than the short-term adaptive playbook, like this is how I'm going to get from point A to point B.
这是一本比短期自适应剧本要广泛得多的剧本，就像我从 A 点到 B 点的方式一样。
And yet, when I listen to an album or a song, I have to assume that at some point it becomes not strategy development or creativity, but strategy implementation.
然而，当我听一张专辑或一首歌时，我必须假设在某些时候它不再是策略开发或创造力，而是策略实施。
There needs to be, the songs are going to come in this order, and I don't know much about music.
需要有，歌曲会按这个顺序来，而我对音乐不太了解。
My musician friends are always laughing.
我的音乐家朋友总是在笑。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I don't either.
我也不。
It's not so much about music.
这与音乐无关。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Well put.
说得好。
But the ordering of the sequence of the melodies, et cetera.
但是旋律的顺序等等。
So at what point does one decide, okay, now's the time to get into that more narrow focus of effort.
那么，人们在什么时候决定，好吧，现在是时候进入更狭窄的工作重点了。
We've got it.
我们已经做到了。
Let's run with this.
让我们开始吧。
Because there is a component of the creative process that involves packaging and finishing and-
因为创意过程的一个组成部分涉及包装和整理以及-
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is that part less satisfying to you or is it just all part of the same larger arc?
该部分是否令您不太满意，或者它只是同一个更大弧线的所有部分？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
It's all part of the same...
这都是同一个的一部分...
There's a good feeling.
有一种很好的感觉。
There's usually a good feeling when something is done.
当某件事完成时，通常会有一种良好的感觉。
On the one hand, it's a commitment because up until the time that you say it's done, you can keep experimenting and changing it.
一方面，这是一种承诺，因为在你说完成之前，你可以继续尝试和改变它。
If you think, "Well, maybe tomorrow I can make it better," then it's not finished.
如果你想，“好吧，也许明天我可以做得更好”，那么事情还没有结束。
And you keep thinking that for a long time, you can do that forever and never put out anything.
在很长一段时间里，你一直认为你可以永远这样做，并且永远不会推出任何东西。
So getting to the point where you're ready to sign off is a good feeling.
因此，准备好签字是一种很好的感觉。
And it allows you, one of the things I talk about in the book is because it is a difficult thing to do, because it's fun to play and it's fun to maybe it's not the best it could be yet.
它让你，我在书中谈到的一件事是，因为这是一件很难做的事情，因为玩起来很有趣，而且很有趣的是，也许它还不是最好的。
To use whatever the next project is going to be as motivation to finish the one you're working on now.
使用下一个项目的任何内容作为完成你现在正在做的项目的动力。
Like, I'm working on this, I'm spending all of my time on this thing.
就像，我正在做这件事，我把所有的时间都花在这件事上。
It's really good.
真的很好。
I believe it can be better, but there's this other thing that I really want to make, and if I keep tinkering with this one, I'll never get to make the other one.
我相信它可以更好，但是我真的很想做另一件事，如果我继续修补这个，我将永远无法制作另一件事。
So using other projects as an impetus to finish something and release it into the world is a good one.
因此，使用其他项目作为完成某件事并将其发布到世界上的动力是一个很好的选择。
And you said your description of source as something within us, I don't know if I would say that was accurate.
你说你对来源的描述是我们体内的某种东西，我不知道我是否会说这是准确的。
It's definitely in us too, but it's not only in us, and it's...
它肯定也存在于我们之中，但它不仅存在于我们之中，而且......
I think of source as the organizing principle of everything, and it's how everything exists, how the trees grow, and why there are mountains, and anything that we can see in the outside world, and every discovery and every piece of art and every new design and every machine are all outgrowths of this source energy.
我认为源头是一切事物的组织原则，它是一切事物如何存在的，树木如何生长的，为什么会有山脉，以及我们在外部世界看到的任何东西，每一个发现、每一件艺术品、每一个新设计和每台机器都是这种源头能量的产物。
Our part of it is the antenna that connects to it.
我们的部分是连接到它的天线。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
And maybe we're the vehicle for source to allow things to happen in the world.
也许我们是让世界上的事情发生的源头载体。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And thank you for that because I did indeed misspeak because I recall very distinctly in the book you described how the physical world is constrained by the laws of physics and certain things.
谢谢你，因为我确实说错了，因为我清楚地记得你在书中描述的物理世界如何受到物理定律和某些事物的约束。
The imagination is unconstrained.
想象力是不受限制的。
And I think I have this right, that you said the work sits somewhere between those.
我想我说得对，你说这项工作介于两者之间。
It's neither of one nor the other.
这既不是其中之一，也不是另一个。
But then ultimately, what feeds into all of that, our imagination and the way indeed that our brain is a physical entity, the nature and the outside world provides at least what appears to be near infinite, if not infinite options.
但最终，我们的想象力以及我们的大脑作为一个物理实体的方式、自然和外部世界至少提供了看似无限（如果不是无限）的选择。
And I love the example of the color palette, that if we restrict me to whatever sorts of paints or medium I have, then it's restricted.
我喜欢调色板的例子，如果我们限制我使用我拥有的任何类型的油漆或介质，那么它就会受到限制。
But in nature, there's an infinite number of shades and tones and combinations.
但在自然界中，有无数的色调、色调和组合。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
And even on one, if you pick up a rock and look at the color of the rock and tried to find a paint to match that rock, it would never match.
即使在其中，如果你拿起一块岩石并观察岩石的颜色并试图找到一种与该岩石相匹配的油漆，它也永远不会匹配。
There's too much- There are too many variations in nature within a single color rock for us to get close.
太多了——在单一颜色的岩石中，自然界有太多的变化，我们无法接近。
There's too much information.
信息太多了。
We scratch the surface.
我们只触及表面。
We're only scratching the surface.
我们只触及了表面。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we love when we are able to peer in at different scales, spatial scales.
我们喜欢能够在不同的尺度、空间尺度上进行观察。
Time scales too, but spatial scales, the delight that comes from that, like these nature pictures.
时间也有尺度，但空间也有尺度，由此产生的喜悦，就像这些自然图片一样。
Seemed like there were more of these in the '80s, where you'd see a drop of oil shot at very high resolution.
八十年代似乎有更多这样的情况，在那里你会看到一滴分辨率非常高的油滴。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's beauty in a drop of oil.
一滴油有美丽。
And then you'd see the Earth and the galaxy.
然后你就会看到地球和银河系。
There's beauty in that, too, right?
这也有美感，对吧？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
These extremes.
这些极端。
And of course, our daily perception is mostly through the filter of these kinds of interactions, walls, and sometimes outdoors.
当然，我们的日常感知主要是通过这些互动、墙壁，有时甚至是户外的过滤。
There's a brilliant neuroscientist and, not surprisingly, he has a Nobel.
有一位杰出的神经科学家，毫不奇怪，他获得了诺贝尔奖。
His name is Richard Axel.
他的名字叫理查德·阿克塞尔。
He's at Columbia University.
他在哥伦比亚大学。
He's a outrageous personality.
他是个性格暴躁的人。
Chews Nicorette nonstop.
不停地咀嚼尼可雷特。
You guys would get along great, not because of the Nicorette, but because his perspective on things is very abstract for a guy who's solved...
你们会相处得很好，不是因为尼古雷特，而是因为他对事物的看法对于一个解决了问题的人来说非常抽象......
He won the Nobel for solving a great problem within how we smell, perception of odors and tastes.
他因解决了我们的嗅觉、气味和味道感知方面的重大问题而获得了诺贝尔奖。
And he says that everything that the brain does is an abstraction.
他说大脑所做的一切都是抽象的。
I could take a photograph of your face and show it to you, and you'd say, "Yeah, that's me." Or let's say for the moment I call myself an abstract artist.
我可以给你的脸拍一张照片然后拿给你看，你会说：“是的，那就是我。”或者暂时说我称自己为抽象艺术家。
Let's just play a game because I've never been accused of being an artist.
我们就玩个游戏吧，因为我从来没有被指责为艺术家。
And I do three dots and a squiggly line, and I say, "That's you." And you say, "Well, that doesn't look like me." And I say, "But that's my abstraction of you."
我画了三个点和一条波浪线，然后我说：“那就是你。”你说：“好吧，那看起来不像我。”我说：“但这就是我对你的抽象。”
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, well, the brain essentially does that-
好吧，大脑基本上就是这么做的——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or something in between that because there's no actual photograph of you in my brain.
或者介于两者之间，因为我的大脑中没有你的真实照片。
It's just a bunch of neurons playing what we call an ensemble, like at different keys on a piano, and we go, "Rick, I recognize you, Rick Rubin." And so everything is an abstraction.
它只是一群神经元在演奏我们所说的合奏，就像在钢琴上的不同琴键上一样，然后我们说，“里克，我认出你了，里克·鲁宾。”所以一切都是抽象的。
And it's only once we start tinkering with the parts, and this is the essence of science, to remove and add and manipulate.
只有当我们开始修补这些部件时，才能删除、添加和操纵，这就是科学的本质。
And the best example I can come up with would be Rothko, and I only come up with this example because I started off in vision science and maybe this will make the most sense to everyone except the folks who've been blind since birth, and they can swap something in here.
我能想到的最好的例子就是罗斯科，我之所以想出这个例子，是因为我是从视觉科学开始的，也许这对每个人来说都是最有意义的，除了那些从出生起就失明的人，他们可以在这里交换一些东西。
That if I show you a Rothko and I don't tell you it's a Rothko, you may or may not actually think it's that impressive.
如果我向你展示罗斯科的作品，但我不告诉你这是罗斯科的作品，你可能会也可能不会认为它有那么令人印象深刻。
It depends on your taste in art.
这取决于您对艺术的品味。
But what Rothko did, which was amazing, even if you don't like Rothkos, and I happen to, is that he removed all the white and high contrasty stuff.
但罗斯科所做的，令人惊奇的是，即使你不喜欢罗斯科（而我碰巧），他删除了所有白色和高对比度的东西。
And when you do that, you alter color space, and so the colors look very different.
当你这样做时，你会改变色彩空间，因此颜色看起来非常不同。
Some people saw that dress a few years ago.
有些人几年前就看过那件衣服。
Is it orange or is it gold or whatever?
是橙色还是金色还是其他什么？
That was a little bit of the same phenomenon.
这有一点相同的现象。
I doubt, in fact, I'd be willing to bet my left arm, that Rothko knew nothing about the neuroscience of color perception, but somehow got to this place where if there was no canvas showing and no high contrast, and the paintings were large enough and on the appropriate wall, you saw them a certain way that tapped into something fundamental.
我怀疑，事实上，我愿意用我的左臂打赌，罗斯科对色彩感知的神经科学一无所知，但不知怎的，如果没有画布展示，没有高对比度，并且画作足够大并且在适当的墙上，你会以某种方式看到它们，从而挖掘出一些基本的东西。
And this is where I think art and science really converge, is that every once in a while, we see something that feels amazing to enough people and not just like the baggy pants phenomenon, not just because other people think it's cool, but there's something there.
我认为这就是艺术和科学真正交汇的地方，每隔一段时间，我们就会看到一些让足够多的人感到惊奇的东西，而不仅仅是像宽松的裤子现象，不仅仅是因为其他人认为它很酷，而是因为那里有一些东西。
And again, this defies language.
再说一次，这违背了语言的规定。
And I have to imagine that in your years of life and music and other creative endeavors, that every once in a while, have you ever encountered something where something fundamental keeps showing up in different form, or there's something almost like a rule or a principle?
我必须想象，在你多年的生活、音乐和其他创作努力中，你是否偶尔会遇到一些基本的东西不断以不同的形式出现，或者有一些几乎像规则或原则的东西？
Does it ever come about?
它会发生吗？
Because in science, we think of this as this reveals something about our limitation to abstract the world.
因为在科学中，我们认为这揭示了我们抽象世界的局限性。
I hope I made that clear.
我希望我说清楚了。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Not exactly, but I have a thought.
不完全是，但我有一个想法。
You talked earlier about the drop of oil, the photograph of the drop of oil, and the photograph of, or we could use on the other side, Hubble telescope images of these vast things in high definition.
您之前谈到了油滴、油滴的照片，以及这些巨大物体的高清照片，或者我们可以在另一边使用哈勃望远镜图像。
What we see every day is as impressive as those things, but we're numb to them because we see them all the time.
我们每天看到的东西和这些东西一样令人印象深刻，但我们对它们麻木了，因为我们一直看到它们。
And if we were to look at drops of oil every day in a microscope, a month from now, we would not find wonder in that image.
如果我们每天在显微镜下观察油滴，一个月后，我们就不会在该图像中发现奇迹。
So sometimes it's the novelty of not seeing it from that perspective before that's really thrilling.
所以有时候，以前没有从这个角度来看它的新奇感真的很令人兴奋。
And I could imagine, and this probably relates to the Rothko idea, that you could see something from a particular angle and have this magical experience, and then walk three feet to the side and see it from a different way, and it just evaporates.
我可以想象，这可能与罗斯科的想法有关，你可以从特定的角度看到某些东西并获得这种神奇的体验，然后走到一边三英尺并从不同的方式看到它，然后它就消失了。
It only works, it only triggers this thing in us when we look at it just the right way.
只有当我们以正确的方式看待它时，它才会起作用，只会触发我们体内的这种东西。
There was an experiment I just heard about the other day that sounds fascinating that a painting teacher recommended where instead of having a model in the room and painting the model, that you have the model in the next room, and you go into the next room without your equipment.
前几天我刚刚听说了一个实验，听起来很有趣，一位绘画老师建议，不要在房间里放一个模型并给模型上色，而是把模型放在隔壁房间，然后你在没有设备的情况下进入隔壁房间。
You don't have your equipment.
你没有你的设备。
And you can study the model for as long as you want, and then you go into a different room where you can't see the model and paint the model instead of...
你可以研究模型多久，然后你进入另一个房间，在那里你看不到模型并给模型上漆，而不是......
And it changes your relationship where it's not just painting the lines.
它会改变你们的关系，而不仅仅是划定界限。
We're painting- What is interesting enough about what I saw?
我们正在画画——我所看到的有什么足够有趣的？
What are the data points that stuck in my mind?
我脑海中浮现出哪些数据点？
And when I string those together, what do I get?
当我把它们串在一起时，我会得到什么？
And how do I form it to get as close to whatever the experience of that person was?
我如何形成它才能尽可能接近那个人的经历？
Which the closest of getting to the experience of that person in the painting might not look like a photograph.
最接近画中那个人的经历的可能看起来不像照片。
It might look more different than more the same to really see what you see.
真正看到你所看到的东西时，它看起来可能更不一样，而不是更相似。
If we think about the Picasso paintings that were inspired by African art, where the eyes are on different levels, they may give us more information than a photograph would give us.
如果我们想想受非洲艺术启发的毕加索画作，其中眼睛处于不同的水平，它们可能会比照片给我们提供更多的信息。
I'm thinking about when you were describing the sensation of when something takes your breath away, and we all have that when we see a dramatic sunset.
我在想，当你描述某件事让你屏住呼吸的感觉时，当我们看到戏剧性的日落时，我们都会有这种感觉。
Anyone you know, when there's a really dramatic sunset, or if there's a whale, and if anyone's on the beach and there's a whale, everybody's really interested that there's a whale.
你认识的任何人，当有一个非常戏剧性的日落时，或者如果有鲸鱼，如果有人在海滩上并且有鲸鱼，每个人都会对鲸鱼的存在非常感兴趣。
Do you know what I'm saying?
你知道我在说什么吗？
These feelings of wonder, we get to experience them depending on where we are.
这些奇妙的感觉，我们可以根据我们所处的位置来体验它们。
Or a dragonfly or a bird flies into your space.
或者一只蜻蜓或一只鸟飞进你的空间。
These things happen, and when they happen, we're confronted with the mystery of the world when we change the perspective.
这些事情发生了，当它们发生时，当我们改变视角时，我们就会面临世界的奥秘。
Normally, we don't think of whales in our backyard or birds in our house flying freely.
通常，我们不会想到后院有鲸鱼，也不会想到家里有自由飞翔的鸟儿。
But they do happen.
但它们确实发生了。
These things do happen.
这些事情确实发生了。
And they break us out of our trance when these things happen.
当这些事情发生时，它们会让我们从恍惚状态中清醒过来。
It's like, "Oh, yeah.
就像，“哦，是的。
There are birds like this everywhere.
到处都有这样的鸟。
I'm just not paying attention." This guy's coming in to tap me on the shoulder, like, "Remember me?
我只是没注意而已。”这个家伙走过来拍拍我的肩膀，好像在说：“还记得我吗？
Here I am."
我在这儿。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I would say that the whale example and what you're describing is it's revealing to us, in a delightful way, how deficient our perceptual filters normally are.
所以我想说，鲸鱼的例子和你所描述的是以一种令人愉快的方式向我们揭示了我们的感知过滤器通常是多么的不足。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a little bit like the Rothko is revealing how-- I've never thought about it this way until this moment, is revealing to us how color normally looks is actually, first of all, not the only way it looks.
这有点像罗斯科正在揭示如何——直到这一刻我才这样思考过，首先，它向我们揭示了颜色通常看起来是什么样子，而不是它看起来的唯一方式。
Those colors we think are one way, but all color, this gets into the biology of color vision, is all about contrast.
我们认为这些颜色是一种方式，但所有颜色，这进入色觉生物学，都与对比度有关。
What something is next to dictates what it looks like.
旁边的东西决定了它的外观。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that's the origin of that dress meme or whatever you call it.
这就是那件衣服迷因或无论你怎么称呼它的起源。
I still can't figure out exactly what a meme is.
我仍然无法弄清楚模因到底是什么。
Someone will eventually tell me.
最终会有人告诉我。
In the same way, when you see a whale and it's delightful, I think it's revealing to us the extent to which those whales are-- The ocean is vast.
同样地，当你看到一头鲸鱼并且它很令人愉悦时，我认为这向我们揭示了这些鲸鱼的程度——海洋是广阔的。
There's a whole universe there, and we are blind to it all the time.
那里有一个完整的宇宙，而我们却一直对它视而不见。
And I think the misperception or the misconception, excuse me, is that we're delighted because we see the whale.
对不起，我认为误解或误解是我们很高兴因为我们看到了鲸鱼。
We might be just as delighted because we're getting hit with the contrast of how little we recognize all the time.
我们可能会同样高兴，因为我们一直被我们所认识的东西如此之少的对比所震惊。
And in that way, it reminds me a little bit about comedy.
这样，它让我想起了一点喜剧。
And I've been watching more comedy lately, and sometimes it's the shock, sometimes it's the absolute truth that's revealed.
我最近看的喜剧越来越多，有时是震惊，有时是揭露的绝对真相。
And then other times, what I've noticed, and I saw Rogan do comedy at The Vulcan Club in Austin, which he does every once in a while, and it was a small club, and he was leading out this story during his routine or bit, I think.
然后其他时候，我注意到，我看到罗根在奥斯汀的瓦肯俱乐部表演喜剧，他每隔一段时间就会这样做，那是一个小俱乐部，我认为他在他的例行公事或一点点中引导了这个故事。
Right?
正确的？
This bit.
这一点。
And everyone knew where it was going.
每个人都知道它要去哪里。
We all knew.
我们都知道。
And then when he finally told us, it was exactly where we thought it was going, and it was hilarious.
然后当他最终告诉我们时，这正是我们所想的，这很搞笑。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
And it felt good.
感觉很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it felt amazing.
这感觉太棒了。
And I thought in that moment, I was like, "Wait a second.
在那一刻我想，“等一下。
How did he pull that off?" That was masterful, because normally it's this thing like you create one story, there's a scripting out, almost like a courtroom lawyer, and then they kind of pull the curtain, and it's something different.
他是怎么做到的？”这太高超了，因为通常情况下，你会创作一个故事，然后编写脚本，就像法庭律师一样，然后他们拉开帷幕，这是不同的东西。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And if you look at the science, the neuroscience and brain imaging of laughter and humor, which I've looked into, to be honest, and no disrespect to the people in that field, it's pretty lame.
老实说，如果你看看我研究过的科学、神经科学和笑声和幽默的大脑成像，并且没有对这个领域的人不尊重，那是相当蹩脚的。
It's lame because it's always the jarring nature of a surprise.
这很蹩脚，因为惊喜总是令人不安。
But what he led us to was something that, "Oh, no, he's actually going there.
但他引导我们的是，“哦，不，他实际上要去那里。
Oh, wait, he's really going there." And it was this anticipation with a beautiful delivery at the end.
噢，等等，他真的要去那里了。”正是这种期待最终带来了美丽的交付。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so I'm convinced that, based on what we're talking about here, that there's something about when we see something, we think it's about that, but that the delight that we feel could be about all the other experiences that now become, in a subconscious way, kind of like, ha.
所以我相信，根据我们在这里谈论的内容，当我们看到某件事时，我们认为是关于那件事的，但我们感受到的快乐可能是关于所有其他经历，现在以潜意识的方式，有点像，哈哈。
It's almost like laughing at this perceptual deficit that we have.
这几乎就像嘲笑我们的这种感知缺陷。
It's almost like laughing at how little we actually know, which is what you've said.
这几乎就像是在嘲笑我们实际上所知甚少，这就是你所说的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
It could be that.
可能是这样。
It also could be the sense of community of when you think it's going to go a particular way, and it goes that way, it's like reinforcement of you.
这也可能是一种社区意识，当你认为事情会朝着某种特定的方向发展时，它就会朝着那个方向发展，这就像对你的强化。
It's like, yeah, he's saying it, but in a way, we're saying it together.
就好像，是的，他是这么说的，但在某种程度上，我们是一起说的。
I'm listening, he's saying it, but we're in this together, and that's a good feeling.
我在听，他在说，但我们在一起，这种感觉很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
To think about that for a second.
想一想。
I was trying to think about why certain music still can evoke such powerful emotions in me, and there does seem to be something special about the music we listen to when we are teenagers.
我试图思考为什么某些音乐仍然能唤起我如此强烈的情感，而我们青少年时听的音乐似乎确实有一些特别的地方。
From about 14 until about 25, it seems to get routed into our nervous system in some way.
从 14 岁左右到 25 岁左右，它似乎以某种方式进入我们的神经系统。
Maybe because that ...
也许是因为那...
phase of our life is really one of identity crisis.
我们人生的一个阶段确实是身份危机的阶段。
You don't find too many 40-year-olds, some who are wondering who they are.
你不会发现太多 40 岁的人，有些人想知道自己是谁。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Occasionally.
偶尔。
But almost every young teenager or preteen and sort of like, "Who am I?" You're defining personality.
但几乎每个青少年或青春期前的孩子都会问，“我是谁？”你正在定义个性。
So I always likened it to that.
所以我一直把它比作那个。
But leaving out the critical period biology stuff, what do you think it is about the music that we hear at that time?
但是抛开关键期生物学的东西，你认为我们当时听到的音乐是什么？
Are we that much more emotionally tuned?
我们的情绪是否更加调和？
Have we not shut down our sensors quite as much?
我们还没有关闭我们的传感器吗？
Because the songs and the artists don't matter because they're very individual to me.
因为歌曲和艺术家并不重要，因为它们对我来说非常个性化。
For other people, it'll be The Beatles or something.
对于其他人来说，可能是披头士乐队之类的。
Now I just really wish The Beatles did it for me, too.
现在我真的希望披头士乐队也能为我做到这一点。
But, do you think that's important?
但是，你认为这重要吗？
Because I could see how it's really terrific.
因为我可以看到它真的很棒。
I could also see how it sets up one of these, what I'll just use nerdy language and call it a semi-deprived filter.
我还可以看到它如何设置其中之一，我将使用书呆子语言并将其称为半剥夺过滤器。
Because if I'm only looking for the way that a Stiff Little Fingers track made me feel the first time I listened to it when I was 15, the feeling is worthwhile.
因为如果我只是寻找 Stiff Little Fingers 的歌曲给我 15 岁时第一次听时的感觉，那么这种感觉是值得的。
But if I'm looking for that, I'm missing all the other stuff.
但如果我正在寻找这个，我就会错过所有其他的东西。
I'm missing The Beatles.
我想念披头士乐队。
I'm missing Fleetwood Mac, which never did it for me either.
我想念 Fleetwood Mac，它也从未为我带来过这种感觉。
I'm missing all this stuff that people I love and respect really love.
我想念我所爱和尊重的人真正喜爱的所有这些东西。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, I've never worried about it because there's kind of an infinite treasure trove of other things-
所以，我从不担心它，因为还有其他东西的无限宝库 -
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that I do love.
我确实喜欢。
But I do sometimes wonder whether or not my life experience is diminished because I'm not allowing range.
但有时我确实想知道我的生活经历是否会因为我不允许范围而减少。
And you've obviously worked in a huge number of different genres of music.
显然你已经接触过大量不同流派的音乐。
Punk is one thing.
朋克是一回事。
Hip-hop is-- Neil Diamond, too, right?
嘻哈音乐也是——尼尔·戴蒙德（Neil Diamond），对吧？
Eminem, too.
阿姆也是。
Slayer, too, right?
杀手也一样吧？
And in some senses, I list these off, just think about how much in high school, maybe nowadays less so, but even in college and as an adult, we societally, we're sort of asked to constrain ourselves to one of these groups.
从某种意义上说，我把这些列出来，想想在高中有多少，也许现在不那么重要了，但即使在大学和作为一个成年人，我们在社会上也被要求将自己限制在这些群体之一。
I didn't know it was okay to love Bob Dylan and love punk rock as much as I do until I heard Tim Armstrong said he loved Bob Dylan.
我不知道可以像我一样爱鲍勃·迪伦和朋克摇滚，直到我听到蒂姆·阿姆斯特朗说他爱鲍勃·迪伦。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And recently he told me he loves the Grateful Dead, and I was like, "Whoa."
最近他告诉我他喜欢感恩而死乐队，我当时就想，“哇。”
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I remember when you had to pick.
但我记得当你必须选择的时候。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
And both The Ramones and The Clash loved The Beatles, so we can-
The Ramones 和 The Clash 都喜欢 The Beatles，所以我们可以-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Man.
伙计。
Okay, I've got work to do.
好吧，我还有工作要做。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
No, but we'll do it together.
不，但我们会一起做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
We'll do it together.
我们会一起做。
It'll be good.
会好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So-
所以——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I have a feeling part of it is the reason it gets in at that age is it's at a time when we're defining who we are, and the music is part of the definition of how we see ourselves.
我有一种感觉，它在那个年龄段流行的部分原因是，我们正在定义自己是谁，而音乐是我们如何看待自己的定义的一部分。
So the music that we hear before that might be the music that's on the radio or our parents' music or our older brother or sister's music.
因此，我们之前听到的音乐可能是收音机中的音乐、父母的音乐或哥哥或姐姐的音乐。
And then when you're 14 or 15 and you start choosing what you're listening to, it's like, "Now it's finally mine.
然后当你 14 岁或 15 岁的时候，你开始选择你正在听的音乐，就像是，“现在它终于是我的了。
And my parents might not like it, and my older brothers and sisters may or may not like it, but this one is mine." And it always has that impression in us that this is ours.
我的父母可能不喜欢它，我的哥哥姐姐可能喜欢也可能不喜欢，但这一件是我的。”我们总是有这样的印象：这是我们的。
That's my thought of why it continues to last.
这就是我认为它能够持续存在的原因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How do you wipe the slate clean then?
那么怎样才能把石板擦干净呢？
So for instance, if you're going to go in and work with somebody new, and again, as people are hearing this, I hope that they're transplanting this to whatever it is that they do.
举例来说，如果你要和新人一起工作，那么当人们听到这个消息时，我希望他们能够将其移植到他们所做的任何事情中。
Because in the realm of science and podcasting communication, it's not music, but there's a contour and a way.
因为在科学和播客传播领域，它不是音乐，而是有轮廓和方式。
Hopefully, this podcast will look nothing like it does in five years.
希望这个播客在五年后看起来不会像现在这样。
That's my hope, is it will still have the core features of the beauty and utility of biology coming through, but I hope it doesn't look anything like episode two.
这是我的希望，它仍然具有生物学之美和实用性的核心特征，但我希望它看起来不像第二集。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
And I think it'll evolve as you evolve.
我认为它会随着你的发展而发展。
It's just the truer it is to what interests you, and if you're not interested in biology in the same way in five years, I would hope it's not the same.
它只是对你感兴趣的东西越真实，如果五年后你对生物学不再以同样的方式感兴趣，我希望它不一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'll be doing psychoanalysis in real time here.
我将在这里实时进行精神分析。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Whatever it is.
不管是什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We'll do therapy.
我们会做治疗。
We'll all be lying down on couches.
我们都会躺在沙发上。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Whatever it is.
不管是什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
We probably won't be on psychedelics, but we might be levitating.
我们可能不会服用迷幻药，但我们可能会漂浮。
Let's talk a little bit, if you would, because I know I'm very interested in your process.
如果您愿意的话，让我们谈谈吧，因为我知道我对您的流程非常感兴趣。
I'll spare you the daily routine question.
我就不提日常问题了。
It's very cliché.
这很陈词滥调。
But you and I are both lovers of sunlight, of horizons, and not as a trivial source, as an amazing gift of energy, right?
但你和我都是阳光和地平线的爱好者，而不是作为一个微不足道的来源，作为一个惊人的能量礼物，对吧？
And there aren't words for it, really.
真的，没有任何言语可以形容。
Aside from your daily routines, when it comes to you're going from project to project and you know you're going to be doing work with somebody, could be your own work, and we'll talk about the writing of this book, and its structure, which is very unique.
除了你的日常生活之外，当你从一个项目转到另一个项目时，你知道你将与某人一起工作，可能是你自己的工作，我们将讨论这本书的写作及其结构，这是非常独特的。
I've never encountered a book with this kind of structure before.
我以前从未遇到过具有这种结构的书。
And it's the most facile read ever, and yet every single page I underlined, took notes, starred, and as you'd notice, it's very worn.
这是有史以来最容易阅读的，但每一页我都画了下划线，做了笔记，加了星号，正如你所注意到的，它非常破旧。
Very, very worn already, and only more so over time.
已经非常非常磨损了，而且随着时间的推移只会更加磨损。
Do you have a process for removing the functions of the day and what you were doing last week and what's going on in order to get more access to this I'm going to think of it now more as a receiver inside of you, right?
你是否有一个流程来删除当天的功能以及你上周所做的事情以及正在发生的事情，以便更多地访问它，我现在更多地将它视为你体内的接收器，对吗？
Almost like tuning a radio.
几乎就像调收音机一样。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then it comes in.
然后它就进来了。
Like the beginning of a Strummer Clash thing, right?
就像《Strummer Clash》的开始一样，对吧？
You love the radio.
你喜欢收音机。
Joe loved the radio.
乔喜欢收音机。
The and then it comes in clear, and there it is.
然后事情就清楚了，就在那里。
How do you clear the static?
怎样清除静电呢？
What are some of the operational steps that you think might be more generalizable regardless of where somebody in Africa is listening to this now?
无论非洲人现在在哪里聆听，您认为哪些操作步骤可能更具有普遍性？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I would say when I engage in a particular project, whatever it is, I dedicate All of myself for that period of time, whatever it is, whether it be 20 minutes or whether it be five hours, whatever it is.
我想说，当我从事一个特定的项目时，无论它是什么，我都会在那段时间里奉献出自己的全部，无论它是什么，无论是 20 分钟还是 5 小时，无论它是什么。
Total focus and no outside distraction whatsoever.
全神贯注，没有任何外界干扰。
And when I leave that process, I do my best not to think about it when I'm away from it.
当我离开这个过程时，我会尽力不去想它。
I don't bring any materials with me.
我没有带任何材料。
I don't leave the studio with works in progress and spend time listening to them during the day or looking for ideas.
我不会带着正在进行的作品离开工作室，而是花时间在白天聆听它们或寻找想法。
I stay as far away from it when I'm not directly engaging in it as possible.
当我不直接参与它时，我会尽可能远离它。
And in the best of situations, I have something else to totally engage myself in, in between.
在最好的情况下，在这两者之间我还有其他事情可以全身心投入。
So instead of working on project A for five hours and then leaving and doing nothing, I'm hoping to engage in a project B or B, C, and D with all of myself before going back to project A again, which might be the next day, let's say.
因此，我不想在项目 A 上工作五个小时，然后离开，什么都不做，而是希望全身心地投入到项目 B 或 B、C 和 D 中，然后再次回到项目 A（可能是第二天）。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So this relates to an amazing chapter and series of writings in your book that I'm not going to describe because I want people to find it for themselves, about disengaging from the process.
所以这与你书中的一个令人惊奇的章节和一系列著作有关，我不会描述它，因为我希望人们自己找到它，关于脱离这个过程。
One question I had as I read that chapter, and as you're saying this now is, even though you're disengaged, do you believe that your subconscious is working it through?
当我读到这一章时，我有一个问题，正如你现在所说的那样，即使你已经脱离了工作，你是否相信你的潜意识正在解决它？
That it-
那它-
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I believe so.
我相信是这样。
I believe so.
我相信是这样。
And I think, in general, to stew over a problem is not the way to solve a problem.
我认为，总的来说，纠缠问题并不是解决问题的方法。
I think to hold the problems lightly.
我认为要轻率地对待这些问题。
And when I say a problem, when we're starting a project, there's usually this feeling of there's a question mark at the beginning of every project.
当我说一个问题时，当我们开始一个项目时，通常会有一种感觉，每个项目的开头都有一个问号。
I'm always anxious when I start a new project because I have no idea what's going to happen.
当我开始一个新项目时，我总是很焦虑，因为我不知道会发生什么。
I never know.
我永远不知道。
I may have, in some cases, a potential backup plan if nothing works.
在某些情况下，如果没有任何效果，我可能有一个潜在的备用计划。
But I really try not even to have that.
但我真的尽力不去拥有它。
I prefer not to have that.
我宁愿没有那个。
I prefer to go in, maybe to calm myself down enough to be able to show up.
我更喜欢进去，也许可以让自己平静下来，以便能够出现。
There'll be an idea of like, "Okay, if nothing works, maybe we could try something like this."
会有这样的想法，“好吧，如果没有效果，也许我们可以尝试这样的事情。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
But that would only be for my own anxiety.
但这只是为了我自己的焦虑。
It wouldn't be for actual practical use.
它不会用于实际用途。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
But there's always a sense of anxiety because I know whatever's going to happen is completely out of my control.
但总是有一种焦虑感，因为我知道无论发生什么都完全超出我的控制范围。
Something either interesting or not will appear, and then we're going to follow that wherever it goes.
一些有趣的或不有趣的东西会出现，然后我们将跟踪它所到之处。
And until something appears for us to follow, I have a lot of anxiety.
在我们可以遵循的事情出现之前，我会感到非常焦虑。
Even though it has never not come, it has come every time, but there's something about it, because I also feel like there might be expectation on me that I'm going to make it happen.
尽管它从来没有没有来过，但它每次都来了，但它有一些东西，因为我也觉得可能有人期望我能够实现它。
And I know that's not happening.
我知道这不会发生。
That's not how it works.
事情不是这样的。
I show up ready for it to happen, and am open to whatever we have to do to find that first thread.
我已经做好了迎接这一切的准备，并且愿意接受我们为找到第一个线索而必须做的一切。
And once we find the thread, then it's like, okay, we have a...
一旦我们找到了线索，那么就像，好吧，我们有一个......
And that thread may lead us to anything.
这条线索可能会引导我们找到任何东西。
Could lead us in a million different directions.
可以引导我们走向一百万个不同的方向。
But something about having that glimmer, that we're not looking at a blank page.
但有一点是，我们看到的不是一张空白页。
We're looking at, okay, we have the beginnings of, I would say, a map, but it's a map that we don't know where it takes us, and it's just the beginning.
我们正在看，好吧，我想说，我们已经有了一张地图的开始，但这是一张我们不知道它会把我们带到哪里的地图，而这只是一个开始。
It's just you are here.
只是你在这里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
If you have a map and it says, "You are here," even if you can't see the directions, knowing where we are feels okay.
如果你有一张地图，上面写着“你在这里”，即使你看不到方向，知道我们在哪里也感觉很好。
And usually, again, usually in the first day, first couple of days, it happens.
通常，同样，通常在第一天、前几天，这种情况就会发生。
But up until then, it's really an anxiety-producing situation.
但在那之前，这确实是一种令人焦虑的情况。
And then I can't remember the original question.
然后我就记不起原来的问题了。
That was the beginning of-
那是开始——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
...
...
something completely different.
完全不同的东西。
But do you remember what you asked?
但你还记得你问了什么吗？
I don't remember.
我不记得了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, we were talking about disengaging and is your subconscious into it, and then we were talking about sort of, I love this, what is your process of wading into this thing?
好吧，我们谈论的是脱离，你的潜意识是否参与其中，然后我们谈论的是，我喜欢这个，你涉足这件事的过程是什么？
And you're revealing that now.
而你现在正在揭露这一点。
I think of anxiety as readiness.
我认为焦虑是一种准备。
Think about the characteristic features of anxiety.
想想焦虑的特征。
It tends to be a bit of a constriction of the visual field into more of a narrow vision.
它往往会导致视野有点收缩，变得更加狭窄。
But that's appropriate because you want to shed what's going on elsewhere.
但这是合适的，因为你想摆脱其他地方发生的事情。
And then even when people talk about the shakes or this not feeling okay sitting still, anxiety was designed to mobilize us and not always to run away.
即使当人们谈论颤抖或坐着不动的感觉不好时，焦虑也是为了动员我们而不是总是逃避。
Rarely do I talk about the work in my own laboratory, but one of the things that, frankly, I didn't discover, but it was done in my laboratory, but this brilliant graduate student, Lindsay Salay, who's now at Caltech, was that we can often observe animals or humans in very high states of anxiety as they move forward toward a goal.
我很少谈论自己实验室的工作，但坦率地说，我没有发现的一件事是，这是在我的实验室完成的，但这位出色的研究生，现在在加州理工学院的 Lindsay Salay 是，我们经常可以观察到动物或人类在朝着目标前进时处于非常高度的焦虑状态。
And we always think of moving forward as this calm thing.
我们总是认为前进是一件平静的事情。
These heroes, Rosa Parks telling people, "F you, I'm not getting off the bus.
这些英雄，罗莎·帕克斯告诉人们，“你们，我不会下车。
I'm not giving up my seat on the bus." Or Muhammad Ali.
我不会在公交车上让座。”或者穆罕默德·阿里。
I bet you they were experiencing tremendous anxiety.
我敢打赌他们正经历着巨大的焦虑。
But it was in the forward tilt.
但它是向前倾斜的。
And so I think anxiety is least comfortable when we are forcing ourselves to stand still.
所以我认为当我们强迫自己静止不动时，焦虑是最不舒服的。
So it's an activating energy, and That brings up a word that I have written in my notebook as an extraction of a lot of themes from within the book that you and I have talked about before, which is, and here I'm going to sound very West Coast woo, but I mean it as seriously as it can be stated, that I feel like everything is energetic.
所以它是一种激活能量，这引出了我在笔记本上写下的一个词，它是从你和我之前讨论过的书中的许多主题中提取出来的，也就是说，在这里我听起来非常西海岸的求爱，但我的意思是，我觉得一切都充满活力。
We can do things from a place of anger.
我们可以在愤怒的地方做事。
We can do things from a place of joy.
我们可以从快乐的地方做事。
We can do things from a place of delight.
我们可以从快乐的地方做事。
I like to think maturing into the idea that joy and delight and love is the ultimate reservoir of energy.
我喜欢认为成熟的想法是快乐、喜悦和爱是能量的终极储存库。
But a lot of the music that I liked from when I was younger, it was because of the anger that was thread into it or the sadness.
但我年轻时喜欢的很多音乐，都是因为其中蕴含着愤怒或悲伤。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
But if you think of your relationship to that music, it's a relationship of love.
但如果你想想你与音乐的关系，那就是一种爱的关系。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
You didn't listen to that to get angry.
你听这话不是为了生气。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No.
不。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
You listened to it because you loved it.
你听它是因为你喜欢它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And I felt loved by it-
我感到被它所爱——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because it matched where I was at, at the time.
因为它符合我当时的处境。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
It was true to who you were and where you were.
这对你是谁、你在哪里都是真实的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know that collaboration, there's a wonderful chapter on collaboration, but it's collaboration, as you mentioned before, with the universe, not with others.
我知道协作，有一个关于协作的精彩章节，但正如您之前提到的，这是与宇宙的协作，而不是与他人的协作。
But in terms of the, especially the kind of work that you've done and do, when it comes to working with artists, I do wonder, and here I'm not looking for any gossip or stories.
但就你所做的工作和正在做的工作而言，当涉及到与艺术家合作时，我确实想知道，在这里我不是在寻找任何八卦或故事。
I've never been interested in gossip.
我一向对八卦不感兴趣。
I love stories, but I'm not interested in gossip.
我喜欢故事，但对八卦不感兴趣。
But once you see that thread kind of dangling there, and you guys are going to go after this, or you grab onto it and you're like, okay, now you have a little bit of a map and an orientation within that map.
但是一旦你看到那条线悬在那里，你们就会去追寻它，或者你抓住它，然后你会想，好吧，现在你有了一点地图和该地图中的方向。
I often wonder, scientists are complicated people.
我常常想，科学家是一群复杂的人。
People think they're very boring, but they're actually very complicated because they're often living in one limited rule set of the prefrontal cortex.
人们认为它们很无聊，但它们实际上非常复杂，因为它们常常生活在前额皮质的一组有限规则中。
That's how you get good at getting degrees, is by understanding the rules of academia and playing by those rules.
这就是你如何获得学位，就是通过理解学术界的规则并遵守这些规则。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People tinker with the rules.
人们修补规则。
You get your Richard Axels who are very playful in how they go about it, but they are systematic.
你会看到理查德·阿克塞尔，他们的做事方式非常有趣，但他们是系统性的。
He's known for rigor, rigor, rigor, right?
他以严谨、严谨、严谨而闻名，对吧？
When I think of creative artists and musical artists, I think of a bit more zany or loose, or you watch the documentary about the Ramones and you're like, "Wow, there's all this chaos." Because so many of the brilliant artists, musical artists that are out there seem to have some chaos inside them or their lives aren't always structured.
当我想到创意艺术家和音乐艺术家时，我会想到更滑稽或更宽松的风格，或者当你观看有关雷蒙斯乐队的纪录片时，你会想，“哇，这一切都是混乱的。”因为许多杰出的艺术家、音乐艺术家的内心似乎有些混乱，或者他们的生活并不总是有条理。
Oftentimes, in science too, by the way, there are substance abuse issues and personal life issues.
顺便说一句，在科学领域也常常存在药物滥用问题和个人生活问题。
How, since you don't have 100% control, they need to play the instruments, sing, et cetera, how do you work with people who have it in them but are getting in their own way, right?
既然你没有100%的控制权，他们需要演奏乐器、唱歌等等，你如何与那些拥有这些能力但妨碍他们自己的人一起工作，对吗？
And do you think that that kind of the internal chaos that a lot of artists seem to have, do you think that sometimes is actually an essential piece of the creativity picture?
你是否认为许多艺术家似乎都有的那种内部混乱，你认为有时实际上是创造力图景的重要组成部分？
That you can't disentangle it?
就不能解开它吗？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
I don't think it's an essential piece in general, but certain artists, that's how they do it.
我认为这不是一般的重要作品，但某些艺术家就是这样做的。
I would say I rarely get to see the chaotic part of artists.
我想说我很少能看到艺术家混乱的部分。
For whatever reason, they rarely show it to me, and most of them, like most comedians I know, are much more serious about what they're doing than what it looks like from if you see them on stage.
不管出于什么原因，他们很少向我展示，而且他们中的大多数人，就像我认识的大多数喜剧演员一样，对自己正在做的事情比你在舞台上看到他们的样子要严肃得多。
There's much more to it, and there's much more focus on craft going on and digging deep than would necessarily be obvious seeing them jump around on stage.
还有更多的内容，并且更多地关注工艺的进行和深入挖掘，而不是看到他们在舞台上跳来跳去。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I'm a fan of boxing, track and field and boxing, the sports nobody really cares about now that UFC is so popular, and track and field is a little bit like wrestling.
我是拳击、田径和拳击的粉丝，现在 UFC 如此流行，没人真正关心这些运动，而田径有点像摔跤。
When you go, the people that are there are there because they really love it.
当你去的时候，那里的人都在那里，因为他们真的很喜欢它。
We'll talk about wrestling in a little bit.
我们稍后会讨论摔跤。
Professional wrestling.
职业摔跤。
But Floyd Mayweather's obviously a colorful character and one of the best records in boxing of all time.
但弗洛伊德·梅威瑟显然是一个丰富多彩的人物，也是拳击史上最好的战绩之一。
And a few years back, I got into watching his stuff, and what one sees is the cars and the money.
几年前，我开始关注他的东西，人们看到的是汽车和金钱。
They literally call themselves "The Money Team," and the spending, and there's all the outrageous stuff.
他们确实称自己为“资金团队”，还有支出，还有所有令人震惊的事情。
But I know someone who was in camp with him, who actually was a sparring partner for him, and the lore has it, they have very closed-door sparring or camps, but the lore is that he would do...
但我认识一个和他一起参加训练营的人，实际上是他的陪练伙伴，据传说，他们有非常闭门的陪练或训练营，但传说他会这样做……
Because nowadays it's 12 three-minute rounds with a minute in between.
因为现在有 12 个三分钟的回合，中间有一分钟。
Used to be 15, but now neuroscientists stepped in, and it turns out a lot of the deaths were occurring when it was more than 12 rounds.
以前是15轮，但现在神经科学家介入，结果发现很多死亡发生在超过12轮时。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For whatever reason-
无论出于何种原因——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
That's interesting
这很有趣
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
cut off at 12 really seemed to truncate the death.
12点被切断似乎真的缩短了死亡。
There are other things, too.
还有其他事情。
If the dad is apparently a cornerman.
如果父亲显然是个角落人。
We have someone else here at the podcast who knows more about this than me, but-
我们播客里还有其他人比我更了解这件事，但是——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
That's fascinating
这真是令人着迷
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
yeah, the kid not wanting to disappoint the parent-
是的，孩子不想让父母失望——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
correlated with death.
与死亡相关。
Anyway, I'll get some of this wrong, and they can come after me.
无论如何，我会犯一些错误，他们可能会来追捕我。
But in any case, this guy who was in Floyd's camp said that he would do 30 to 60 minutes of sparring, bringing in fresh sparring partners with no rest.
但无论如何，弗洛伊德阵营中的这个家伙说他会进行30到60分钟的陪练，不休息地引入新的陪练伙伴。
That he would run three or four times per 24-hour cycle, despite all the critical need for sleep.
他每 24 小时一个周期都会跑步三到四次，尽管他非常需要睡眠。
That his training was unbelievably intense, to the point where he would just chew up and destroy all training partners.
他的训练强度惊人，以至于他会把所有的训练伙伴都嚼碎、毁掉。
And yet the perception that we see is it's playful for him.
然而我们看到的感觉是这对他来说很有趣。
So it sounds very similar.
所以听起来很相似。
What we see is often not what goes into it.
我们看到的往往并不是事情的真相。
That people are intensely rigorous.
人们非常严谨。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
And I think in a way, from a psychological perspective, if you knew you were fighting someone who wasn't taking it seriously, that would give you some confidence, and that would not be a good thing if the person was actually working really hard, outworking you.
我认为在某种程度上，从心理学的角度来看，如果你知道你正在与一个不认真对待的人战斗，这会给你一些信心，如果这个人真的很努力工作，比你工作得更好，那将不是一件好事。
Do you know what I'm saying?
你知道我在说什么吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
From a psychological perspective, that makes sense to me.
从心理学的角度来看，这对我来说是有道理的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what I keep coming back to is that I'm imagining in my mind two ends of the continuum.
所以我不断回想起的是我在脑海中想象连续体的两端。
One that is about fairly narrow focus, training, training, strategy implementation, cultivating craft, building craft.
其关注点相当狭窄，包括培训、培训、战略实施、培养工艺、建造工艺。
And then the other side is this, the cloud.
然后另一面就是云。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's very nebulous, right?
这很模糊，对吧？
And there's this word that I learned from a colleague of mine when I was down at the Salk Institute when my lab was there, because he studies this.
这个词是我在索尔克研究所时从我的一位同事那里学到的，当时我的实验室就在那里，因为他研究这个。
There's this phenomenon that I don't want to mispronounce because then it sounds like something else, but the correct pronunciation is pareidolia.
有一种现象我不想读错，因为那样听起来像别的东西，但正确的发音是pareidolia。
And pareidolia is our tendency to look at an amorphous shape, like a cloud or a tree, and think that it looks like something else.
空想性幻想是指我们倾向于观察无定形的形状，例如云或树，并认为它看起来像其他东西。
An ice cream cone.
一个蛋卷冰淇淋。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The man in the moon.
月亮里的那个人。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that, again, reveals the extent to which the brain wants to place symbolic filters on things.
这再次揭示了大脑想要在事物上放置象征性过滤器的程度。
And we need this, right?
我们需要这个，对吗？
Because I see you walk in the door and, Rick, I recognize you.
因为我看到你走进门，瑞克，我认出了你。
In fact, we have a brain area called the fusiform face gyrus, that literally is a face recognition area.
事实上，我们的大脑有一个叫做梭形面回的区域，字面意思就是面部识别区域。
And you could be at any orientation, or I could just see your eyes and know that it's you.
你可以在任何方向，或者我只要看到你的眼睛就知道是你。
There's a phenomenon called prosopagnosia where people can see faces, they can describe everything in the face, but they don't know, for instance, that it's JFK or Madonna or Lex Fridman.
有一种称为“面容失认症”的现象，人们可以看到面孔，他们可以描述脸上的一切，但他们不知道，例如，这是肯尼迪、麦当娜或莱克斯·弗里德曼。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
It's quite the list.
这是一个完整的清单。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Quite the list.
名单相当齐全。
There you go, Lex.
就这样吧，莱克斯。
Run for office, Lex.
竞选公职，莱克斯。
Just kidding.
只是在开玩笑。
It's hard enough to get you to respond to my texts as it is.
让你按原样回复我的短信已经够难的了。
So we have these filters, and so we're taking this cloud and we're deciding what things are.
所以我们有这些过滤器，所以我们正在利用这个云，我们正在决定事情是什么。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And what I want to go drill into your process a little bit more deeply, when you approach a project, so everyone meets each other, shakes hands.
我想更深入地研究一下你的流程，当你接近一个项目时，每个人都会互相见面，握手。
"Here are the engineers.
“这是工程师。
We're going to sit down." Everyone knows what they're doing because you work with professionals, and you start going.
我们要坐下来。”每个人都知道他们在做什么，因为你与专业人士一起工作，然后你就开始行动。
Are you trying to be with the cloud or in the implementation?
您是尝试使用云还是实施？
Where are you in that continuum?
你在这个连续体中处于什么位置？
And forgive me if I'm trying to surgically go into your process in a way that would disrupt it in any way.
如果我试图以一种会以任何方式破坏你的过程的手术方式进入你的过程，请原谅我。
But I trust you've been doing this for a while, and there's no threat of that.
但我相信你这样做已经有一段时间了，而且不存在这种威胁。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I'm in the cloud with the exception of I'm aware of what could go wrong on a technical side, and if something good is happening, I might look over and make sure that we're rolling.
我在云端，除了我知道技术方面可能会出现什么问题，如果发生了好事，我可能会检查并确保我们正在滚动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So that's a leap over to here momentarily, but then you're back in the cloud.
因此，这只是暂时跳转到此处，但随后您又回到了云中。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Maybe.
也许吧。
If I was in the moment, I would be in the cloud, and if something good starts happening, it would trigger something in me like, "Uh-oh, I hope we're really doing this because I don't know if we could ever do this again." That would be a thought of when the first time the real world would come into the picture would be, something good is happening, let's not lose it.
如果我在那一刻，我会在云中，如果有好事开始发生，它会在我内心触发一些东西，比如，“哦，我希望我们真的这样做，因为我不知道我们是否可以再次这样做。”当现实世界第一次进入画面时，就会想到，一些好事正在发生，我们不要失去它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And when that happens, do you-- Never been in a studio besides a podcast studio.
当这种情况发生时，你是否——除了播客工作室之外从未去过其他工作室。
Do you say, "Hey, guys, that sounded good.
你是否会说：“嘿，伙计们，听起来不错。
More of that"?
更多这样的事”？
Or do you wait, you let them continue?
或者你等待，让他们继续？
Because obviously you don't want to break their flow.
因为显然你不想破坏他们的流程。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
We'd never want to break any flow once it's happening.
一旦发生，我们就不想破坏任何流程。
Yeah.
是的。
Once something's happening, just sit back and watch.
一旦有事情发生，就坐下来观看。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And do you think there's resonance?
你认为有共鸣吗？
Like the team of engineers and other people know when it, quote unquote, "is happening"?
就像工程师团队和其他人知道什么时候，引用不引用，“正在发生”？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
If everyone's paying attention, yes.
如果大家都注意的话，是的。
When everyone's paying attention, it's usually pretty obvious.
当每个人都注意时，它通常是非常明显的。
Sometimes the thread will be something different than expected, and maybe not everybody would pick up on it, and that might be particular based on my taste or an artist's taste, or someone involved might say, "Let's listen back to that.
有时，线索会与预期不同，也许不是每个人都会接受它，这可能是基于我的品味或艺术家的品味，或者涉及的人可能会说，“让我们听一下。
I think that was better than we thought." That can happen.
我认为这比我们想象的要好。”这可能会发生。
You said several things, and it was like you said enough for there to be several conversations.
你说了好几件事，就好像你说的足够多了，可以进行多次对话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I tend to do that, sorry.
我倾向于这样做，抱歉。
Especially with you.
尤其是和你在一起。
I don't get to see you nearly as often as I would like, and so when I do, I confess that I'm a little bit of a kid in a candy shop.
我不能像我希望的那样经常见到你，所以当我见到你时，我承认我有点像糖果店里的孩子。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I wrote down, the brain tells us stories.
我写下来，大脑给我们讲故事。
So you talked about, I walk in, certain data points, you recognize me, but it's a real like looking at a cloud shorthand.
所以你谈到，我走进去，某些数据点，你认出了我，但这真的就像看云速记一样。
We go through our lives doing this all day with everything we see.
我们在一生中整天都在做这样的事，处理我们所看到的一切。
And the shorthand, in the case of me, you know me, the shorthand turns out to be right.
至于速记，就我而言，你了解我，速记结果是正确的。
It checks out.
它检查出来了。
If it's something we don't know and something we're not familiar with, something happens, we experience something on the street, something happens, and it doesn't make sense.
如果是我们不知道、不熟悉的事情，就会发生一些事情，我们在街上经历过一些事情，发生了一些事情，那就没有意义了。
Something out of the ordinary happens.
发生了一些不寻常的事情。
First thing is, this doesn't make sense.
首先，这没有意义。
Then what we do is, again, subconscious, unconsciously, I don't know if it's unconscious or subconsciously, without thinking, we create a story that explains what just happened, a hypothetical, that makes it okay that what just happened, happened, and, oh, maybe he's running because his dog ran away and he's chasing his dog.
然后我们所做的是，再次，潜意识，无意识，我不知道是无意识还是潜意识，不假思索，我们创造了一个故事来解释刚刚发生的事情，一个假设，这使得刚刚发生的事情发生了，哦，也许他正在逃跑，因为他的狗逃跑了，他正在追他的狗。
Maybe that's why he's running.
也许这就是他跑步的原因。
And as soon as we have that thought of what it might be, we relax because now it's not just a guy running and this is weird, but it's a guy running, oh, he's probably running after his dog.
一旦我们想到它可能是什么，我们就会放松，因为现在不仅仅是一个人在跑步，这很奇怪，而是一个人在跑步，哦，他可能在追他的狗。
And now we register that story that we just made up without even knowing we were making it up as what happened.
现在我们记录了我们刚刚编造的故事，甚至不知道我们正在编造它所发生的事情。
And then later in the day, if someone says, "Yeah, did you see that guy running out of the house?" Like, "Yeah, he was chasing his dog.
然后在当天晚些时候，如果有人说：“是的，你看到那个人跑出房子了吗？”就像，“是的，他在追他的狗。
I saw that." And you won't even realize that it was the maybe hypothetical story that was the first possible explanation that allowed you to continue walking.
我看到了。”你甚至不会意识到，这个可能是假设的故事是第一个让你继续行走的可能解释。
Do you know what I'm saying?
你知道我在说什么吗？
That's our whole lives.
这就是我们的一生。
Our whole lives are reacting to things, making up a story of what we think may have happened without realizing that's what we're doing, and then living the rest of our lives as if that thing that we made up really happened, and we never know.
我们的一生都在对事物做出反应，编造一个我们认为可能发生的事情的故事，却没有意识到这就是我们正在做的事情，然后我们的余生就好像我们编造的事情真的发生过一样，而我们永远不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I completely agree.
我完全同意。
We confabulate from birth until death.
我们从出生到死亡都在交谈。
There's this well-observed phenomenon in people who have memory deficits.
在有记忆缺陷的人身上，存在着这种被广泛观察到的现象。
So there's the sad example of this, and then there's the everyday, typical, who knows, sad or not sad example.
这是一个悲伤的例子，然后是日常的、典型的、谁知道悲伤或不悲伤的例子。
So for instance, if somebody has a slight memory deficit or someone has Alzheimer's dementia, they'll find themselves in the hallway at night and you say, "What are you doing here?" And they'll say, "Oh, I was going to get a glass of water," but they're walking away from the direction that would make sense.
举例来说，如果某人有轻微的记忆缺陷或患有阿尔茨海默氏痴呆症，他们会发现自己晚上在走廊里，而你说：“你在这里做什么？”他们会说，“哦，我要去喝一杯水”，但他们却偏离了有意义的方向。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Alcoholics who drink enough develop something called Korsakoff syndrome, where a certain brain area gets messed up, and you'll ask them a question like, "Oh, what are you doing here?" And they will come up with incredible stories, sometimes interesting stories, that have no bearing on reality.
饮酒过量的酗酒者会患上一种称为科萨科夫综合症的疾病，即大脑的某个区域出现混乱，你会问他们这样的问题：“哦，你在这儿做什么？”他们会想出令人难以置信的故事，有时甚至是有趣的故事，但与现实无关。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You ask them who their name is.
你问他们的名字是谁。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
But do they believe?
但他们相信吗？
They believe that's what happened.
他们相信这就是发生的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
With 100% certainty.
100%确定。
And this actually relates to a lot of the now better understood controversy around repressed memories.
这实际上与许多现在更好理解的有关压抑记忆的争议有关。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Especially from young people, you can pull memories from them of things that never happened.
尤其是年轻人，你可以从他们身上提取从未发生过的事情的记忆。
This has been demonstrated over and over again.
这已被一再证明。
So courtrooms know to be very cautious now about this whole notion of repressed memories.
因此，法庭现在知道对压抑记忆的整个概念要非常谨慎。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
That's good to know.
很高兴知道这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Very complicated area of the law, as you can imagine.
正如您可以想象的那样，法律领域非常复杂。
Because we tend to want to trust victims for understandable reasons.
因为我们倾向于出于可以理解的原因信任受害者。
But in terms of accuracy of details, two people have very different accounts of the same experiences, and this has been shown over and over again.
但就细节的准确性而言，两个人对同一经历的描述却截然不同，这一点已经被一再证明。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That you can do well in the laboratory.
你可以在实验室做得很好。
It's pretty interesting.
这很有趣。
So again, because of these selective filtering and storytelling.
再说一次，因为这些选择性过滤和讲故事。
I think it was Salman Rushdie who said we are the storytelling species.
我认为萨尔曼·拉什迪（Salman Rushdie）说过我们是讲故事的物种。
He probably-
他可能——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Wow, I was going to say we're storytelling machines.
哇，我想说我们是讲故事的机器。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
But that's great.
但这太好了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I would say that the big five, if I had to pick up a brain function is we are very limited filters.
我想说的是，如果我必须选择一个大脑功能的话，那就是我们的过滤器非常有限。
The mantis shrimp sees 67 shades of red for every one that we see.
我们看到的每一种红色，螳螂虾都能看到 67 种红色。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So they have access to things we don't have access to.
所以他们可以接触到我们无法接触到的东西。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're not, as far as I know, releasing albums of the Red Hot Chili Peppers caliber, but who knows?
据我所知，他们并没有发行红辣椒乐队级别的专辑，但谁知道呢？
Maybe down there they are.
也许他们就在那里。
I did see something, by the way, as a relevant tangent recently, and I don't know if it's...
顺便说一句，我最近确实看到了一些相关的切线，我不知道它是否......
Look, even if it's crazy, it's super cool.
你看，即使很疯狂，也超级酷。
If you take a device that amplifies the electrical signals coming from cactus, and you just translate that into a simple rule of conversion to two or three pitches of sound, the music that comes out of it is beautiful.
如果你使用一个放大仙人掌发出的电信号的设备，然后将其转化为转换为两到三个音调的简单规则，那么从它发出的音乐就会很美妙。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Wow, that's amazing.
哇，太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Nothing short of beautiful.
没有什么比美丽更美的了。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Great.
太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And when I saw that, the teenager in me thought, you know when we hear whale song, we think it's so beautiful.
当我看到这个时，我内心的少年想，你知道，当我们听到鲸鱼的歌声时，我们认为它是如此美丽。
What if they're just cursing at each other the whole time, right?
如果他们一直互相咒骂怎么办？
Maybe they're in there like a Rogan episode when he invites all his comedian friends in there.
也许他们就像罗根邀请他所有的喜剧演员朋友一样在那里。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Who knows?
谁知道？
Maybe it's a psychoanalytic conversation about their childhood traumas.
也许这是一场关于他们童年创伤的精神分析对话。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But we decide whale song is beautiful.
但我们认为鲸鱼的歌声很美。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We decide cactus are just plants.
我们认为仙人掌只是植物。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
And it's beautiful to us.
这对我们来说很美丽。
And we're right that it is beautiful to us, but it doesn't mean we know anything about it.
我们是对的，它对我们来说很美丽，但这并不意味着我们对此一无所知。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's right.
没错。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, so we have these filters, perceptual filters.
是的，所以我们有这些过滤器，感知过滤器。
We only can see and hear, smell, and taste what we can.
我们只能看到、听到、闻到和尝到我们能看到的东西。
And then the brain likes to work in symbols.
然后大脑喜欢用符号来工作。
We tend to like to match.
我们往往喜欢匹配。
That person whose shoes are messed up must be homeless.
那个鞋子弄脏的人一定是无家可归的。
I've had a couple instances in life where I saw what I thought was a homeless vagrant inside a building at an academics institution.
我在生活中曾有过几次在学术机构的大楼内看到一个我认为是无家可归的流浪者的情况。
It turned out it was the most accomplished person in the field.
事实证明，他是该领域最有成就的人。
That's always cool.
这总是很酷。
Yes, that happened at Berkeley.
是的，这发生在伯克利。
Then the other thing that we do is we tend to put symbol rep-- So we said perception, symbol representations, and then our memories are entirely confabulated based on already deficient symbol and perceptual representation.
然后我们做的另一件事是我们倾向于放置符号代表——所以我们说感知、符号表征，然后我们的记忆完全是基于已经有缺陷的符号和感知表征而虚构的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so I never liked the statement that we don't know how the brain works.
所以我从来不喜欢“我们不知道大脑如何运作”的说法。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think we do know how the brain works, but that it works through very limited filters.
我认为我们确实知道大脑是如何工作的，但它是通过非常有限的过滤器来工作的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, so knowing that and accepting it, and it seems to me that this idea of looking to nature, looking outside us is so critical.
好吧，知道这一点并接受它，在我看来，这种向自然、向外看的想法是如此重要。
And in fact, I hope you won't mind me sharing this, but a few years back, I had sent you something by text, and I was kind of in disbelief about something I'd seen in the media.
事实上，我希望你不会介意我分享这个，但几年前，我通过短信给你发了一些东西，我对我在媒体上看到的东西有点难以置信。
I was like, "They got it all wrong," and I knew the person involved, and it was not a good situation for them.
我当时想，“他们全错了”，我认识涉案的人，这对他们来说不是一个好情况。
And I was like, "They got it all wrong." And you wrote back, you said, "It's all lies.
我当时想，“他们全错了。”你回信说：“这都是谎言。
Back to nature.
回归自然。
The only truth."
唯一的真相。”
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Wow.
哇。
That's wild.
那太疯狂了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I wrote that down.
我把它写了下来。
I put it over my desk.
我把它放在我的桌子上。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd tattoo it on my forehead if I didn't already have it well committed to memory.
如果我还没有很好地记住它的话，我会把它纹在我的额头上。
But I know that's true, right?
但我知道那是真的，对吧？
Nature we can look at and it's in-
我们可以观察的自然，它就在——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
But when I say it's all lies, you just talked about our ability to how limited our facility to see and understand what we see.
但当我说这都是谎言时，你刚刚谈到了我们看到和理解我们所看到的东西的能力是多么有限。
Yes?
是的？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes.
是的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
So based on that, that leads us to we can't know much.
基于此，我们无法了解太多。
Do you know what I'm saying?
你知道我在说什么吗？
Our resolution is so low on everything That we're really just grasping at straws.
我们在所有事情上的决心都很低，我们实际上只是抓住了救命稻草。
We have no idea.
我们不知道。
We have no idea.
我们不知道。
And there's great power in knowing that.
知道这一点会产生巨大的力量。
Because if you think you know what's going on, chances are you're being deceived.
因为如果您认为自己知道发生了什么，那么您很可能被欺骗了。
Not because somebody's deceiving you, but because they're telling you what they see, and they don't know.
不是因为有人在欺骗你，而是因为他们告诉你他们所看到的，但他们并不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Do you know what I'm saying?
你知道我在说什么吗？
It's all made up.
一切都是编造出来的。
Everything we know is made up.
我们所知道的一切都是编造的。
Maybe it's true.
也许这是真的。
This brings us to pro wrestling.
这让我们想到了职业摔跤。
It's the reason that pro wrestling is closer to reality than anything else we can watch or any other content.
这就是职业摔跤比我们可以观看的任何其他内容或任何其他内容更接近现实的原因。
It's we know it's made up.
我们知道它是编造的。
We know that it's a performance, it's storytelling, and that's how everything is, except we think wrestling's fake and the world is real.
我们知道这是一场表演，是在讲故事，一切都是如此，只是我们认为摔跤是假的，而世界是真实的。
Wrestling's real and the world's fake.
摔跤是真实的，世界是虚假的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You talk about in the book, we're definitely going this direction.
你在书中谈到，我们肯定会朝这个方向发展。
In the book, you talk about this notion of entertaining the idea of the opposite being true.
在书中，您谈到了接受相反事实的想法。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there are not only emerging, but established fields of psychology that are making great ground, I think, into the human psyche, Byron Katie's work and others, where you take a statement and you start playing with that statement for, you poke at its authenticity.
我认为，不仅新兴的而且已经建立的心理学领域正在为人类心灵奠定基础，拜伦·凯蒂的工作和其他人，你接受一个陈述，你开始玩弄这个陈述，你会探究它的真实性。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And when I first heard that, I thought, "This is kind of hokey." It's just words.
当我第一次听到这个消息时，我想：“这有点做作。”这只是言语。
And then I realized how foolish I was being because she's really onto something.
然后我意识到我是多么愚蠢，因为她确实在做某件事。
And there are others too, of course, but in science, that's exactly what you do.
当然，还有其他的，但在科学中，这正是你所做的。
You don't really ask questions in science.
你并没有真正提出科学问题。
You are forced to raise hypotheses and try and say true or false.
你被迫提出假设并尝试判断是真是假。
Now, there are limitations to that approach, certainly.
现在，这种方法当然有局限性。
Pure observational studies have been incredible in terms of what they've revealed to us, especially in medicine.
纯粹的观察性研究向我们揭示的内容令人难以置信，尤其是在医学领域。
A patient that has a bullet hole through a certain area of the brain, you don't go in and say, "Oh, I hypothesize that person will have a deficit in seeing faces." No, the person wandered into the clinic, and they go, "This person sees faces but can't make sense of them." And then you forensically arrive at an understanding.
一个大脑某个区域有弹孔的病人，你不会进去说：“哦，我假设这个人在看脸方面有缺陷。”不，这个人走进了诊所，他们说：“这个人看到了面孔，但无法理解它们。”然后你就可以通过法庭的方式达成共识。
But in general, we go about things in this way, and considering that the opposite might be true, well, that's a little bit, I suppose of seeing the whale at the surface of the water.
但总的来说，我们以这种方式处理事情，并考虑到相反的情况可能是正确的，好吧，这有点，我想在水面上看到鲸鱼。
It's like, well, the opposite of my experience, which is all above water for the most part, is maybe not the complete experience of life.
这就像，嗯，与我的经历相反，大部分都是在水面上，也许不是完整的生活经历。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You start seeing the inverse all the time.
你开始总是看到相反的情况。
So I want to-
所以我想——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Consider the inverse all the time.
始终考虑相反的情况。
And it really relates to the way that you described how we see colors is based on contrast.
这确实与您所描述的我们如何基于对比度来看待颜色的方式有关。
So maybe blue's only blue in relation to yellow.
所以也许蓝色是唯一与黄色相关的蓝色。
So if blue is our choice, if we're not considering yellow, blue doesn't exist.
因此，如果我们选择蓝色，如果我们不考虑黄色，那么蓝色就不存在。
Do you know what I'm saying?
你知道我在说什么吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
It's like we talk about night.
就像我们谈论夜晚一样。
It's only night because there's day.
这只是夜晚，因为还有白天。
If there was no day, there is no night.
如果没有白天，就没有夜晚。
In all of our cases, it's like the yin-yang.
在我们所有的情况下，它就像阴阳。
There's the light and the shadow always.
光与影始终存在。
There's always another side for everything, and we focus on one aspect, but if we look at the other aspect, chances are we'll learn something, too.
凡事总有另一面，我们专注于一个方面，但如果我们着眼于另一方面，我们很可能也会学到一些东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
The nervous system is not just able to do this, it's the way it does everything.
神经系统不仅能做到这一点，而且还能做到一切。
Two experiments I'll just briefly describe.
我将简要描述两个实验。
My scientific great-grandparents, David Hubel and Torsten Wiesel, showed that if you force a person to look at something for a long period of time without moving their eyes, there's a way that you can do this.
我的科学曾祖父母大卫·休贝尔和托斯顿·威塞尔表明，如果你强迫一个人长时间看某物而不移动眼睛，有一种方法可以做到这一点。
The image disappears, because normally your eyes are making little microsaccades, and you're comparing what you're seeing to what's right next to it.
图像消失了，因为通常情况下，您的眼睛会进行微小的扫视，并且您会将所看到的内容与旁边的内容进行比较。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Pixel by pixel.
逐个像素。
Pixel by pixel.
逐个像素。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We don't even have to use the example of pressing on the arm.
我们甚至不必使用按压手臂的例子。
We're sitting in chairs right now, and until I said, "What's going on at the level of sensation on the backs of your thighs?" you were unaware of it because if you experience a pressure or a smell in a room, you ever walk in, the smell is either good or not good.
我们现在坐在椅子上，直到我说：“你大腿后部的感觉是怎么回事？”你没有意识到这一点，因为如果你在房间里感受到压力或气味，你走进去，气味要么好，要么不好。
Pretty soon the smell disappears.
很快气味就消失了。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The neurons are still firing like sledgehammers on a bell, but we become blind and deaf to it because the nervous system likes to habituate the value of that signal when it's there often, and it's only the stuff that comes through signal the noise that kind of jolts us into attention and awareness.
神经元仍然像钟上的大锤一样放电，但我们对它变得盲目和充耳不闻，因为神经系统喜欢习惯该信号经常出现的值，只有通过信号发出的噪音才能引起我们的注意和意识。
And I want to return to attention awareness, which are prominent themes in the book.
我想回到注意力意识，这是本书的突出主题。
And I think in an important way, not just, "Oh, attention awareness is important," but you also give insight into how to pay better attention, how to pay awareness with the understanding that people are going to go about it differently.
我认为，在一个重要的方面，不仅仅是“哦，注意力意识很重要”，而且你还深入了解如何更好地集中注意力，如何在理解人们将以不同的方式对待它的情况下提高意识。
But I do want to ask you about wrestling, because when I was growing up, I lived south of the Cow Palace, and there was some wrestling going on there.
但我确实想问你关于摔跤的事，因为当我长大的时候，我住在牛宫的南面，那里有一些摔跤比赛。
I think back then it was WWF.
我想当时是世界自然基金会。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there was a short stint in my childhood where I paid attention to, in particular, was it Koko B.
在我的童年时期，有一段短暂的时期，我特别关注的是 Koko B.
Ware, the guy that had a macaw?
韦尔，那个养着金刚鹦鹉的家伙？
I was obsessed with tropical birds, and he would come in, and he'd put his tropical bird on the thing.
我对热带鸟类很着迷，他会进来，然后把他的热带鸟放在东西上。
And then who's that?
那是谁呢？
George "The Animal" Steele, the guy that would eat the ring.
乔治“动物”斯蒂尔，那个会吃掉戒指的人。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
And-
还有——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I believe he was a professor.
我相信他是一位教授。
Seriously.
严重地。
Seriously.
严重地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Was he really?
他真的是吗？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
In real life-
在现实生活中——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing
太棒了
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
...
...
he was a professor, but he played George "The Animal" Steele as a wrestler.
他是一名教授，但他扮演的乔治“动物”斯蒂尔是一名摔跤手。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I loved the movie "The Wrestler".
我喜欢电影《摔跤手》。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Darren Aronofsky movie.
达伦·阿罗诺夫斯基电影。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was Mickey Rourke.
这是米基·洛克。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
With Mickey Rourke.
与米基·洛克。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
One of the reasons I liked it is I once visited Asbury Park.
我喜欢它的原因之一是我曾经参观过阿斯伯里帕克。
Isn't that where that was filmed?
这不是拍摄地吗？
He goes to visit his daughter.
他去看望他的女儿。
There's a vacant amusement park or abandoned amusement park scene there that was really eerie.
那里有一个空置的游乐园或废弃的游乐园场景，真是令人毛骨悚然。
Still kind of haunts me a little bit.
仍然让我有点困扰。
There's something about the East Coast in fall All the places that people normally go just for the summer-
秋天的东海岸有一些东西 人们通常只去避暑的所有地方 -
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that we don't have out here on the West Coast.
我们西海岸没有。
People on the East Coast are just tougher than we are.
东海岸的人比我们坚强。
It still haunts me.
它仍然困扰着我。
Great movie.
很棒的电影。
But I remember watching wrestling, and it was at that age, I think I was probably about 12, 13, maybe 11, 12, 13, where you're entering puberty.
但我记得看过摔跤，那是在那个年纪，我想我大概是12、13岁，也许是11、12、13岁，你正在进入青春期。
Puberty is a fundamental landmark of development.
青春期是发展的一个基本里程碑。
It's the most rapid period of aging.
这是衰老最快的时期。
It's also when we start to change our rule set.
这也是我们开始改变规则集的时候。
Certain people and certain kinds of interactions take on profoundly different meaning.
某些人和某些类型的互动具有截然不同的意义。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
It's not just a reproductive competence time and when kids their bodies change.
这不仅仅是生殖能力的时期，当孩子出生时，他们的身体也会发生变化。
The rule book changes fundamentally.
规则手册发生了根本性的变化。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Our understanding of the world changes in that moment.
我们对世界的理解在那一刻发生了变化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
The moment that a child understands really what sex is-
当孩子真正明白性是什么的那一刻——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and how they got there, and that a lot of the stuff that we see in the world is passively or not so passively being sent through that filter, it's something.
以及它们是如何到达那里的，以及我们在世界上看到的很多东西都是被动或不那么被动地通过过滤器发送的，这是一些东西。
It changes the rule book of perception.
它改变了感知的规则书。
I view this age from about 11 to 13, at least for me, was a unique transition point where the gap between what I perceived as reality and fiction was kind of blurry.
我认为从 11 岁到 13 岁这个年龄段，至少对我来说，是一个独特的过渡点，我所认为的现实与虚构之间的差距有点模糊。
This is captured pretty well in that movie, "Stand by Me," where they're hanging around the campfire at night and the kid says, "Who do you think would win in a fight between Superman and Mighty Mouse?" And the other kid says, "You idiot.
这在电影《伴我同行》中得到了很好的体现，他们晚上在篝火旁闲逛，孩子说：“你认为超人和强力老鼠之间的战斗谁会赢？”另一个孩子说：“你这个白痴。
Mighty Mouse is a cartoon.
《强力老鼠》是一部动画片。
Of course, Superman would win." Right?
当然，超人会赢。”正确的？
And to me, that's being 11 and a half or 12 years old-
对我来说，那就是 11 岁半或 12 岁——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
where your understanding of reality as you know it is changing, but it's not completely crystallized into an adult form reality.
你对现实的理解正在改变，但它还没有完全结晶成成人形式的现实。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
That sounds like a really healthy place to be to me.
对我来说，这听起来是一个非常健康的地方。
Like that-
就像那样——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
...
...
not letting it crystallize.
不让它结晶。
I think there's where the downfall happens.
我认为这就是崩溃发生的地方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
So I had questions specifically about wrestling, but it's really about process.
所以我有一些关于摔跤的问题，但这实际上是关于过程的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I want to know whether or not you watch wrestling because it allows you to access the energy state in your body and mind, and that kind of mode of thinking in which reality, as one conceives it, is somewhat blurry.
我想知道你是否观看摔跤，因为它可以让你进入你的身体和心灵的能量状态，以及一种思维方式，在这种思维方式中，现实，正如人们所想象的那样，有些模糊。
Or is it for a number of other reasons, which is fine?
或者是出于其他一些原因，这没关系吗？
Is that the energy you're trying to export and bring to the creative process elsewhere to life?
这就是你想要输出并带到其他地方的创作过程中的能量吗？
Is it that anything is possible or that we're dealing with archetypes?
是一切皆有可能，还是我们正在处理原型？
Because it doesn't matter if it's Koko B.
因为即使是 Koko B 也没关系。
Ware or Randy "Macho Man" Savage or George "The Animal" Steele and the lovely Elizabeth.
韦尔或兰迪“猛男”萨维奇或乔治“动物”斯蒂尔和可爱的伊丽莎白。
I guess I did watch a little bit of wrestling.
我想我确实看了一点摔跤。
They are archetypes, much like the Greek-
他们是原型，很像希腊人——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
myths or the Bible or-
神话或圣经或——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
no disrespect to the Bible or to Greek myths, or to wrestling for that matter.
没有对圣经或希腊神话的不尊重，也没有对摔跤的不尊重。
Archetypes are a powerful filter for humans, but we know that they're a very limited filter, too, because people aren't built like square wave functions.
原型对于人类来说是一个强大的过滤器，但我们知道它们也是一个非常有限的过滤器，因为人类并不是像方波函数那样构建的。
We have curves and contours and complexity.
我们有曲线、轮廓和复杂性。
So what is the deal with your relationship to wrestling?
那么你和摔跤的关系是怎样的呢？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I think it maintains that kind of playfulness, anything is possible.
我认为它保持了那种俏皮感，一切皆有可能。
We expect the unexpected all the time in wrestling, and it's a way to have a feeling of the energy of a sport with no competition.
在摔跤比赛中，我们总是期待着意想不到的事情，这是感受一项没有竞争的运动的能量的一种方式。
Everyone is working together to put on the best show they can, so it's more like a ballet than it is like a sporting event.
每个人都在共同努力上演最好的表演，所以这更像是一场芭蕾舞，而不是一场体育赛事。
And there's great skill involved.
这涉及到很高的技巧。
It's one of the few things that I can watch and really feel relaxed.
这是我可以观看并真正感到放松的少数事情之一。
It relaxes me.
它让我放松。
I don't feel like I have to think about it.
我不觉得我必须考虑这个问题。
I can just relax and enjoy it.
我可以放松并享受它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This brings up a topic that is very near and dear to my heart, which is this notion of dopamine schedules.
这就引出了一个我非常关心的话题，那就是多巴胺时间表的概念。
I never want to reduce everything to dopamine, but dopamine is the universal currency of delight, pleasure, motivation, seeking.
我从来不想把一切都归结为多巴胺，但多巴胺是喜悦、愉悦、动力和寻求的通用货币。
There are other chemicals involved, too, but there's a beautiful experiment and a couple of examples that I'll use as a foundation to more questions about wrestling and why it's powerful and why other people may want to use wrestling or some other endeavor as a way to access creative energy and source.
还涉及其他化学物质，但有一个漂亮的实验和几个例子，我将用它们作为更多关于摔跤的问题的基础，为什么它很强大，以及为什么其他人可能想使用摔跤或其他一些努力作为获取创造性能量和来源的方式。
Earlier, we talked about, you can train an animal to press a lever three times and then get reward, and it will learn three is the magic number for reward.
之前我们谈到，你可以训练一只动物按三下杠杆，然后获得奖励，它会学习三是奖励的神奇数字。
And then it can switch.
然后就可以切换了。
It takes a little bit of training, and then they can switch.
需要一些培训，然后他们就可以切换。
But they can't do prime numbers.
但他们不能计算素数。
They can't do high abstraction schedules.
他们无法执行高抽象计划。
Humans either, we're not very good at figuring out the rule set for optimal foraging.
对于人类来说，我们也不太擅长找出最佳觅食的规则集。
We do it well enough to persist as a species, at least for now, but it's very likely that we are not tapping into that system as well as we could.
我们做得足够好，足以作为一个物种持续存在，至少目前如此，但我们很可能没有充分利用这个系统。
And how would we know if we don't know?
如果我们不知道，我们怎么知道？
It's one of those you don't know what you don't knows.
这是你不知道的事情之一。
There's a beautiful experiment that explored when dopamine is released in the context of watching sport or watching comedy, believe it or not.
不管你信不信，有一个漂亮的实验探讨了在观看体育比赛或喜剧时多巴胺的释放情况。
And with the comedy stuff, it was every time there was a surprise.
而对于喜剧来说，每次都会有惊喜。
It was that jarring like, "Ha-ha!" And they'd measure people's dopamine output.
就是那种刺耳的感觉，“哈哈！”他们会测量人们的多巴胺输出。
They were also brain imaging.
他们还进行了脑成像。
In a game of basketball, it's a beautiful opportunity experimentally because every time one team gets the ball or is shooting free throws or something, they're going down court and it's either going to end up in the basket or it's not.
在篮球比赛中，这是一个很好的实验机会，因为每次一支球队拿到球或罚球或其他什么东西时，他们都会走到球场上，球要么最终落入篮筐，要么不落入篮筐。
Might end up on the free throw line, but it's going to end up not.
可能最终会被罚上罚球线，但最终也不会。
So what they found is that the schedule of anticipation was every time there was a switch of which team got it.
所以他们发现，预期的时间表是每次哪支球队得到它时发生变化。
So you're waiting, waiting, and then it's, "Ah." And you're waiting, waiting, "Yes!" Waiting, waiting, three-pointer, "Oh, awesome." And if something happened where it looked like they were going to make the three-pointer but then ...
所以你一直在等待，等待，然后就是“啊”。而你正在等待，等待，“是的！”等啊等，三分球，哦，厉害了。如果发生了一些事情，看起来他们将投进三分球，但随后......
somebody basically swatted the ball away and then went for a half court shot.
有人基本上把球拍开，然后进行半场投篮。
You don't expect that very often.
你不会经常想到这种情况。
Bigger dopamine release.
多巴胺释放量更大。
Okay?
好的？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So that's kind of how the dopamine thing works.
这就是多巴胺的作用原理。
When you describe wrestling, I wonder, because you don't know the script, it's not one team gets it, then the other team gets it.
当你描述摔跤时，我想知道，因为你不知道剧本，不是一个团队明白了，然后另一个团队明白了。
You don't know who's going to win.
你不知道谁会赢。
Anything could happen is what you said.
正如你所说，任何事情都可能发生。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The availability of that dopamine surge or drip, which is a powerful thing, it's completely out of your reach in terms of anticipation.
多巴胺的激增或滴注是一件非常强大的事情，它完全超出了你的预期。
You don't know when it's going to come, but it must arrive often enough that you return to it 11 hours a week of watching.
你不知道它什么时候会出现，但它的出现频率必须足够高，让你每周都能观看 11 个小时。
In many ways, the way I'm starting to conceptualize the creative process is a little bit the same.
在很多方面，我开始概念化创作过程的方式都有点相同。
You don't know where those nuggets of gold and those loose threads are, but you have enough experience, and in this case, I am referring to you specifically, to know that they are in there.
你不知道那些金块和那些松散的线在哪里，但你有足够的经验，在这种情况下，我特意指的是你，知道它们在那里。
The people walking in this room have a certain level of ability and talent to create that the map will form itself as we are going through the voyage, and those nuggets of, here I'm calling them dopamine, but they are out there.
走在这个房间里的人具有一定水平的能力和天赋，可以在我们航行时形成地图，而这些金块，我在这里称之为多巴胺，但它们就在那里。
And that knowledge is enough to get you to come back again and again to trust the process.
这些知识足以让你一次又一次地回来信任这个过程。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I actually think the way you describe wrestling as it's the energy of the sport.
所以我实际上认为你描述摔跤的方式是这项运动的能量。
It's not the whether or not it's this move or that move, or who wins or who loses, it's the energy, and I'm guessing it's the energy that it creates in you-
问题不在于是这一步还是那一步，或者谁赢谁输，而是能量，我猜这就是它在你体内创造的能量——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as an observer.
作为观察者。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
It's the energy it creates in me, and the reality that it's honest in what it is, in a world where seemingly nothing is honest at what it is.
这是它在我体内创造的能量，也是它在一个看似没有什么是诚实的世界中诚实的现实。
And again, not because people are lying all the time.
再说一遍，并不是因为人们一直在撒谎。
We have a little data, we make up a story to explain it, and then we say that's what happened.
我们有一些数据，我们编造一个故事来解释它，然后我们说这就是发生的事情。
And we have trusted sources who do exactly what I just described and who pass this down as gospel of what we teach, and maybe it's true and maybe it's not.
我们有值得信赖的消息来源，他们完全按照我刚才描述的方式行事，并将其作为我们所教的福音传下来，也许这是真的，也许不是。
With wrestling, we know maybe it's true, maybe it's not.
对于摔跤，我们知道这也许是真的，也许不是。
We lean towards it not being true.
我们倾向于认为这不是真的。
But what's really interesting about wrestling, and maybe one of the most fun things about it, is that sometimes real life works its way into the story.
但摔跤真正有趣的地方，也许也是最有趣的事情之一，是有时现实生活会融入到故事中。
Like, two wrestlers get married.
就像，两个摔跤手结婚了。
Now-
现在——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In real life
在现实生活中
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
...
...
well, we don't know.
好吧，我们不知道。
It's like you never know.
就像你永远不知道一样。
It's like in the storyline they're getting married or getting divorced or best friends turn on each other, and it could be part of the story, and it could really be happening because they do write someone breaks their leg, so they're out because their leg is broken.
就像在故事情节中，他们要结婚或离婚，或者最好的朋友互相攻击，这可能是故事的一部分，而且这可能真的发生，因为他们确实写了有人摔断了腿，所以他们因为腿骨折而出局。
Did they break their leg?
他们摔断腿了吗？
We don't know.
我们不知道。
They're out.
他们出去了。
Do you know what I'm saying?
你知道我在说什么吗？
We're told they broke their leg.
我们听说他们摔断了腿。
So there's always this like, I wonder what's true.
所以总是有这样的感觉，我想知道什么是真的。
I wonder where the line is.
我想知道这条线在哪里。
We know that it's scripted or predetermined.
我们知道它是有脚本的或预先确定的。
That's how they say.
他们就是这么说的。
It's predetermined, but we don't know where reality is and isn't, and in some ways, that's our real experience of the world is this, we don't really know where reality is and isn't.
它是预先确定的，但我们不知道现实在哪里，不在哪里，在某些方面，这就是我们对世界的真实体验，我们真的不知道现实在哪里，不在哪里。
We have an idea, maybe.
也许我们有一个想法。
I think in some ways wrestling's more honest or legitimate because we start with the idea that it's fixed.
我认为在某些方面摔跤更诚实或更合法，因为我们一开始就认为摔跤是固定的。
When we go to a boxing match, we don't go to a boxing match thinking it's fixed.
当我们去看拳击比赛时，我们不会认为比赛已经确定了。
Yet it might be, and historically, it's happened.
但它可能确实如此，而且从历史上看，它确实发生过。
Or there was just something in baseball where...
或者棒球界有一些东西......
Was it baseball?
是棒球吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't follow baseball.
我不关注棒球。
I should know.
我应该知道。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
There was just a big sports-
刚刚有一场大型运动会——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh
哦
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
...
...
one of the teams that-
其中一支球队——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The plays basically.
基本上都是戏。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Was it the call signals of the-
难道是——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of the catcher?
捕手的？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
You're not supposed to deprogram or deconstruct the call signals of the other team, and I guess maybe a team got caught doing that.
你不应该对其他团队的呼叫信号进行反编程或解构，我想也许有一个团队这样做被抓了。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes, and the team that won whatever the World Series was.
是的，还有赢得世界大赛冠军的球队。
So it's like with wrestling that wouldn't be a scandal.
所以就像摔跤一样，这不会成为丑闻。
Do you know what I'm saying?
你知道我在说什么吗？
It's like-
这就像——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because almost anything goes
因为几乎任何事情都会发生
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
...
...
anything goes, and that's what the world is really like.
一切都会发生，这就是世界本来的样子。
So in some ways it's comforting, and there's still this mystery of like, wow, I wonder if that's true or not because we never really know.
所以在某些方面它是令人欣慰的，而且仍然存在这样的神秘感，哇，我想知道这是真的还是假的，因为我们永远不知道。
Someone gets hurt.
有人受伤。
Did they really break their back, or are they just going on vacation?
他们真的摔断了背，还是只是去度假？
We don't know.
我们不知道。
We'll never know.
我们永远不会知道。
It's fascinating.
这很有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It is fascinating, and I feel like there are certain people who show up in a way that is surprising in not just one direction, but in all directions.
这很令人着迷，我觉得有些人以一种令人惊讶的方式出现，不仅在一个方向上，而且在各个方向上。
Like it's one thing for a celebrity to come out and make a statement.
就像名人站出来发表声明是一回事。
That can be interesting or not interesting, depending on the celebrity and the statement and the delivery.
这可能有趣也可能不有趣，具体取决于名人、声明和表达方式。
But, and I'm probably going to get this wrong because I'm terrible at pop culture things, most of them anyway, but as I recall, Lady Gaga showed up to some event wearing an outfit made of meat, and I can't tell you for the life of me whether or not that was a statement against meat or for meat.
但是，我可能会犯这个错误，因为我对流行文化的东西很糟糕，无论如何，其中大多数，但我记得，Lady Gaga 穿着肉做的衣服出现在一些活动上，我一辈子都无法告诉你这是否是反对肉或支持肉的声明。
Maybe it was a statement for the carnivore diet.
也许这是肉食动物饮食的一个声明。
Maybe it was a statement for veganism.
也许这是素食主义的声明。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Either way-
不管怎样——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Or maybe neither
或者也许两者都不是
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or maybe neither.
或者也许两者都不是。
But it was definitely a statement in that it broke with the norm.
但这绝对是一个打破常规的声明。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it said to me, okay, she creates different rules for herself or breaks boundaries that- Other people had-- I never heard of anyone doing that before.
它对我说，好吧，她为自己制定了不同的规则，或者打破了其他人所拥有的界限，我以前从未听说过有人这样做。
Which doesn't mean they hadn't, but I never heard of anyone doing it before.
这并不意味着他们没有这样做，但我以前从未听说有人这样做过。
But we do tend to associate outside the current playbook with "creativity," unless it crosses a line, in which case it becomes something else.
但我们确实倾向于将当前剧本之外的内容与“创造力”联系起来，除非它跨越了界限，在这种情况下它就变成了别的东西。
It becomes almost theater for sake of theater.
它几乎变成了为了剧院而剧院。
But what you're telling me is that within the realm of wrestling, theater is the goal at some level, and everybody knows it who goes into those arenas who watches it.
但你告诉我的是，在摔跤领域，戏剧在某种程度上是目标，每个人都知道谁进入那些观看它的竞技场。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Everybody.
大家。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And everyone agrees to kind of suspend outside reality and say, "This is reality."
每个人都同意暂时搁置现实之外并说：“这就是现实。”
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
And they boo for the bad guys and cheer for the good guys, knowing that backstage they're probably friends.
他们为坏人嘘声，为好人欢呼，因为他们知道在后台他们可能是朋友。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Except for the kids that are 11 who think it's really real.
除了那些认为这是真的的 11 岁孩子。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I don't know.
我不知道。
I don't even know if they know.
我什至不知道他们是否知道。
I'm not sure.
我不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The only other person I know who has vocalized their love of professional wrestling to the extent that you have is Lars Frederiksen, the rhythm guitar player for Rancid, who loves wrestling.
我认识的唯一一个像你们这样表达对职业摔跤热爱的人是拉尔斯·弗雷德里克森(Lars Frederiksen)，他是 Rancid 乐队的节奏吉他手，热爱摔跤。
But his statement, and forgive me, Lars, if I'm getting this wrong, is that because he grew up in an area of the South Bay where there were no teams.
但他的说法，请原谅我，拉斯，如果我弄错了，是因为他在南湾的一个没有球队的地区长大。
Now there's the San Jose Earthquakes, but there was no football team in San Jose.
现在发生了圣何塞地震，但圣何塞没有足球队。
He's from Campbell.
他来自坎贝尔。
But there were no good teams, no sports teams.
但没有好的球队，没有运动队。
But they had wrestling.
但他们有摔跤。
And he had it where?
他在哪里得到的？
On the television set.
在电视机上。
And so if you didn't have a...
所以如果你没有...
I didn't grow up with any organized sports thing.
我从小就没有参加过任何有组织的体育活动。
The 49ers were up the road, but for me, it was skateboarding, and I love it for the same reason.
49 人队在路上，但对我来说，这是滑板，我出于同样的原因喜欢它。
You actually never really know what's going to happen.
你实际上永远不知道会发生什么。
There is no rulebook.
没有规则手册。
The rulebook is made up.
规则手册已制定。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But they are very...
但他们非常...
It's a unique sport in that, surfing's a bit like this, too, in that they are absolutely maniacal about making things look a certain way.
这是一项独特的运动，冲浪也有点像这样，因为他们绝对疯狂地让事情看起来像某种方式。
It's not about just doing it, it's about doing it and making it look good.
这不仅仅是做它，而是做它并让它看起来很好。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Smooth, catching it with the front foot.
光滑，用前脚抓住它。
And the trends change.
而且趋势也在改变。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Style.
风格。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Style.
风格。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
It's a style.
这是一种风格。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And style is this nebulous thing of in fashion or in sport.
风格是时尚或运动中模糊的东西。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
That's interesting.
这很有趣。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Whereas with a football, there's some amazing catches.
而足球则有一些令人惊奇的接球。
There's even The Catch, which I happen to know is a 49er, The Catch, during the Super Bowl.
甚至还有The Catch，我在超级碗期间碰巧知道它是49人队的The Catch。
But in general, it's like the goal is get in the end zone, win the game.
但总的来说，目标就是进入达阵区，赢得比赛。
And I'm sure football players are cringing as I say this, but it doesn't matter if you run ugly if you run fastest.
我敢肯定，当我这么说的时候，足球运动员们都会感到畏缩，但如果你跑得最快，即使你跑得丑也没关系。
In skateboarding, that would never fly.
在滑板运动中，那永远不会飞。
In fact, you would basically be ridiculed out of the sport.
事实上，你基本上会被嘲笑退出这项运动。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In wrestling, is it the same?
在摔跤比赛中，也是这样吗？
Is there style to wrestling?
摔跤有风格吗？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
It's all performance.
这都是性能。
It's all the charisma of the people involved.
这都是相关人员的魅力。
There's the physical ability, the ability to talk and tell a story, and how charismatic the performers are.
包括身体能力、说话和讲故事的能力，以及表演者的魅力。
Whether you want to watch them, whether you want to see them win, whether you want to see them lose, and whether you're interested in cheering or booing for them.
无论你想看他们，无论你是否想看到他们获胜，无论你是否想看到他们输球，以及你是否有兴趣为他们欢呼或嘘声。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I was going to say it reminds me of opera, but operas get released over and over again.
我本来想说这让我想起歌剧，但歌剧一遍又一遍地上映。
You know the story and how it ends when you walk in if you've listened to it before.
如果您以前听过这个故事，那么当您走进去时，您就会知道这个故事以及它的结局。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So wrestling does seem to be unique in that way.
所以摔跤在这方面似乎确实很独特。
It's real-time iteration, at least from the perspective of the-
这是实时迭代，至少从 -
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
And it's real-time iteration based on because people get hurt all the time.
这是基于实时迭代的，因为人们总是会受伤。
They're doing really crazy physical stuff.
他们正在做非常疯狂的体力活动。
So if someone gets hurt, the story has to change because in real life, they can't show up next week and do what was planned in the script.
因此，如果有人受伤，故事就必须改变，因为在现实生活中，他们无法在下周出现并按照剧本中的计划行事。
So it's very alive and there's a lot of...
所以它非常有活力，而且有很多...
Something interesting and unexpected is always happening.
有趣和意想不到的事情总是发生。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, in a much more calm form, I'll share with you something.
好吧，我会以一种更平静的方式与你分享一些东西。
I would just like your perspective on it.
我只是想听听你对此的看法。
For years, I used a tool in order to try and access ideas, since I was a little kid, actually, because I have a little bit of OCD, a little bit of a Tourette's.
多年来，我一直使用工具来尝试和获取想法，实际上，从我还是个小孩子的时候起，因为我有一点强迫症，一点抽动秽语症。
When I get tired, I'll do that, and very strategy implementation oriented.
当我累了的时候，我就会这样做，而且非常注重战略实施。
When I was a little kid, I needed all my stuffed animals arranged in a certain way.
当我还是个小孩子的时候，我需要所有的毛绒动物以某种方式排列。
Legos had to be...
乐高积木必须是...
A little neurotic.
有点神经质。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or a lot.
或者很多。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then science is very much about you have to do things with a lot of precision.
科学的本质就是你必须非常精确地做事。
And I discovered that the ultimate reset for me when I was in graduate school or a postdoc, if I couldn't make it to a really good Agnostic Front show or chaos, the chaos of a punk rock show for me was a kind of this reset.
我发现，当我在研究生院或博士后时，对我来说最终的重置，如果我不能参加真正好的不可知论前线表演或混乱，朋克摇滚表演的混乱对我来说就是一种这种重置。
It was like, "Ah." Could release all this thing, and I got energy from it.
就像是“啊”。可以释放出这一切，我从中得到了能量。
First time I saw Transplants play and it was like, "Whoa," because you don't know what's going to happen, and it was scary and I loved it.
我第一次看移植比赛时，感觉就像是“哇”，因为你不知道会发生什么，这很可怕，但我喜欢它。
The other thing that I used over time to kind of reset this ability to think in a structured way without it feeling like it was overcoming me, maybe even access the same thing in some ways that you're accessing with wrestling was, I like to stare at aquaria.
随着时间的推移，我用另一件事来重置这种以结构化方式思考的能力，而不感觉它正在克服我，甚至可能以某种方式访问与摔跤相同的东西，我喜欢盯着水族馆。
I like to go to aquariums or I'd build aquariums, and I would just sit there because you never know which way the fish are going to go.
我喜欢去水族馆，或者我会建造水族馆，我会坐在那里，因为你永远不知道鱼会去哪条路。
You think it's going that way, but then all of a sudden they'll turn and go the other way.
你以为事情会朝那个方向发展，但突然间他们就会转向另一个方向。
It's completely unpredictable, and I love aquaria because of the tranquility and-
这是完全不可预测的，我喜欢水族馆，因为它的宁静和——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
had them in my lab for a long time.
它们在我的实验室里放了很长时间。
I just adore aquariums because of the non-linearity of it.
我只是喜欢水族馆，因为它的非线性。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not A, B, C, it's A, Z, Z, Q.
不是A、B、C，而是A、Z、Z、Q。
And I think this is what some people try and access through psychedelics, but that didn't seem to me like a very good way to do it on a regular basis.
我认为这就是一些人尝试通过迷幻药获得的东西，但在我看来，这并不是一个很好的定期这样做的方法。
Whereas with aquaria, the tanks are there.
而对于水族箱来说，水箱就在那里。
So in your book, you talk about something that I also share a love for, which is how the ocean and aspects of nature like clouds and ocean, they have a predictability to them.
所以在你的书中，你谈到了我也喜欢的一些事情，那就是海洋和自然的各个方面（如云和海洋）如何具有可预测性。
We know where they are and where to find them.
我们知道他们在哪里以及在哪里可以找到他们。
Fortunately, the sun rises and sets every day, at least for now.
幸运的是，太阳每天都会升起和落下，至少现在是这样。
And we can count on them with 100% reliability And yet they are from the perspective of what physicists would say, they're very chaotic.
我们可以百分百信赖它们，但从物理学家的角度来看，它们非常混乱。
You can't look at a wave and know exactly how the foam is going to roll out.
你无法通过观察波浪来准确地知道泡沫将如何滚出。
You know it's going to roll in and roll out.
你知道它会滚来滚去。
We have the tides.
我们有潮汐。
But when I hear about wrestling, I think about my love of Aquaria, when I think about my love of punk rock music, for instance, or I think about the ocean.
但是，当我听到摔跤时，我会想到我对 Aquaria 的热爱，例如，当我想到我对朋克摇滚音乐的热爱，或者我想到海洋时。
I think of it in that way, that we actually have a need to source from things that have both a combination of structure and no structure.
我是这样认为的，我们实际上需要从具有结构组合和无结构组合的事物中获取资源。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I think it's interesting that there are some places that don't change and some places that change a lot.
我觉得很有趣的是，有些地方没有改变，有些地方改变很大。
And I can remember thinking about this.
我记得我曾思考过这个问题。
I was walking, there's a beach that I walk on in Hawaii that I walk on every morning when I'm there.
我在散步，我在夏威夷有一个海滩，每天早上我在那里的时候都会在那里散步。
And if you walk on the same beach every day, you get a sense of what it's like.
如果您每天都在同一个海滩上行走，您就会感受到它是什么样的。
And I remember I was in Hawaii, walked on the beach every day for a year, however long it was, and then I left for six months, and then I came back, and the next time I walked on the beach, it was an entirely different beach.
我记得我在夏威夷，每天都在海滩上散步，持续了一年，不管时间有多长，然后我离开了六个月，然后我回来了，下次我在海滩上散步时，那是一个完全不同的海滩。
Entirely different.
完全不同。
And I remember thinking in that moment, this is an unusual place, because I pictured the house that I didn't even grow up in.
我记得那一刻我在想，这是一个不寻常的地方，因为我想象着那栋我什至没有长大的房子。
The house I lived in maybe for the first seven years of my life, and I think about what the backyard looked like, and I think about a particular old tree that was there.
我可能在生命的前七年里住过这所房子，我想到了后院的样子，想到了那里的一棵特别的老树。
And I don't know this for sure, but my sense is if I were to go back to where I grew up and go to that place and look in that yard, it would probably look pretty similar.
我不确定这一点，但我的感觉是，如果我回到我长大的地方，去那个地方看看那个院子，它可能看起来很相似。
Yet here was this beach that I was walking on in Hawaii that, in the course of six months, completely changed its face.
然而，我在夏威夷漫步的这片海滩，在六个月的时间里，完全改变了面貌。
And just how interesting both of those things are, and that depending on the project we're working on, to be able to go to a place that we know has the potential to change a lot and what that would do to our connection with the Earth when we're experiencing that, versus going to a place that has very little change, and you can count on it being the way it's always been.
这两件事是多么有趣，这取决于我们正在开展的项目，能够去一个我们知道有可能发生很大变化的地方，当我们经历这种变化时，这会对我们与地球的联系产生什么影响，而不是去一个几乎没有变化的地方，你可以指望它会一直如此。
That both of those are interesting things to be able to draw upon, depending on what we want to open in our psyche.
这两者都是可以利用的有趣的东西，这取决于我们想要在我们的心灵中打开什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
I have an almost unhealthy fascination with New York in the mid '80s and '90s, and-
我对 80 年代中期和 90 年代的纽约有着近乎不健康的迷恋，而且——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
You didn't live there, though.
不过你并不住在那里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, but since I was a kid, I went there when I was a little kid, and I was fascinated by it.
没有，但是我从小就去过那里，我就被它迷住了。
There's also a very interesting migration of East Coast to West Coast creatives, including yourself, that played an important part in my life, just seeing things and hearing things that were meaningful to me.
还有一个非常有趣的从东海岸到西海岸的创意人员迁移，包括你自己，这在我的生活中发挥了重要作用，只是看到和听到对我有意义的事情。
But, for instance, I love the movie.
但是，例如，我喜欢这部电影。
I haven't seen the documentary, but the one about Jean-Michel Basquiat, "Basquiat," because of the characters that are in it and the huge number of people in that, like Parker Posey, Dennis Hopper, and Christopher Wall, and on and on.
我没看过这部纪录片，而是一部关于让-米歇尔·巴斯奎特的纪录片，《巴斯奎特》，因为里面的人物和人数众多，比如帕克·波西、丹尼斯·霍珀和克里斯托弗·沃尔等等。
Those images of New York at that time are so exciting and what was happening.
当时纽约的那些画面和正在发生的事情是如此令人兴奋。
I wish I could transplant myself to that.
我希望我能把自己移植到那里。
If I had a time machine, that's where I'd land first.
如果我有时光机，那就是我第一个降落的地方。
I hear a lot of people say, "New York isn't what it used to be.
我听到很多人说：“纽约已经不再是以前的纽约了。
San Francisco isn't what it used to be," whatever.
旧金山已经不再是以前的样子了，”无论如何。
There does seem to be something that feels a little bit disruptive to people about cities changing, but the idea that natural landscapes change is actually...
城市的变化似乎确实让人们感觉有点破坏性，但自然景观变化的想法实际上是……
We even accept, like, hey, fires sweep through places, and assuming they weren't started by humans, we accept that, that change and the reordering of landscapes is normal and healthy.
我们甚至接受，比如，嘿，火灾席卷了一些地方，假设它们不是由人类引起的，我们接受这一点，景观的变化和重新排序是正常和健康的。
And I always tell myself, you have the kids growing up in New York or San Francisco or Chicago now, they only know it that way.
我总是告诉自己，你的孩子现在在纽约、旧金山或芝加哥长大，他们只知道这一点。
So to them, it's as cool or as uncool as it's ever going to be.
所以对他们来说，这要么很酷，要么很不酷。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
They either want to get out, or they're loving every piece of it.
他们要么想离开，要么热爱这里的每一处。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And this happened for all the people that came before us.
这发生在我们之前的所有人身上。
So my question is a very basic one.
所以我的问题是一个非常基本的问题。
Do you miss the New York that you came up in?
你想念你出生时的纽约吗？
Are you somebody who is attached to the past?
你是一个执着于过去的人吗？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I'm not attached at all.
我根本不执着。
I'm not attached to anything in the past.
我对过去的任何事情都不执着。
I don't look back at all.
我根本不回头。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You don't think about like, "Oh, in my dorm room at NYU, Beastie Boys, this, I miss..." No, your optics are forward.
你不会想，“哦，在我纽约大学的宿舍里，野兽男孩，这个，我想念......”不，你的光学是向前的。
Present and forward.
呈现并转发。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Only present and forward.
只存在并转发。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is there a process to that, or it just happens to be where you default to?
是否有一个流程，或者它恰好是您默认的地方？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I don't know.
我不知道。
I'm not sure, but that's how I do it.
我不确定，但我就是这么做的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Nostalgia is not in Rick Rubin's brain.
里克·鲁宾的大脑里没有怀旧之情。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, lucky you, man.
噢，你真幸运，伙计。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I say that with genuine admiration.
我怀着真诚的钦佩之情这么说。
So you can hear a song that maybe you had a role in producing or not, something from the past, and you're accessing a state, presumably, but you're not pining for or wishing how it was.
所以你可以听到一首可能是你参与制作或没有制作的歌曲，来自过去的一些东西，你可能正在进入一种状态，但你并不渴望或希望它是怎样的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Never.
从来没有。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm no psychologist, but I'm going to venture to say that I think that's a very unique quality.
我不是心理学家，但我敢说，我认为这是一种非常独特的品质。
I think a lot of people wish for or wish that things did not happen the way they did, that there's a lot of living in the past.
我认为很多人都希望或希望事情不会像他们那样发生，有很多生活在过去。
There's a lot of this notion of people future trip.
人们对未来旅行有很多这样的想法。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't actually think that's the default state of the brain.
我实际上并不认为这是大脑的默认状态。
I think a lot of people live in emotional anchors to the past, good and bad.
我认为很多人都生活在对过去的情感锚定中，无论是好的还是坏的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
I have none.
我没有。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And watching wrestling is one way that you cleanse the palate.
观看摔跤是净化味觉的一种方式。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
It's true.
这是真的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When you go to a meal, and they pass around the...
当你去吃饭的时候，他们会经过...
I don't think they do this anymore, but pass around a little bit of sorbet to cleanse the palate.
我认为他们不再这样做了，而是传递了一点冰糕来清洁口感。
Turns out there's a biological reason for that.
事实证明这是有生物学原因的。
There's a kind of neutralization of the taste receptors between savory and sweet, et cetera.
咸味和甜味之间存在一种味觉受体的中和作用，等等。
So wrestling is your palate neutralizer.
所以摔跤是你的味觉中和剂。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I know that if I watch wrestling before I go to sleep, it's going to be a good night's sleep.
我知道如果我在睡觉前看摔跤比赛，那将会是一个良好的睡眠。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Do you dream about wrestling?
你梦想摔跤吗？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
No. Never.
不，从来没有。
But it's just relaxing.
但这只是放松。
It's- It's just relaxing.
这——这只是放松。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you anticipate when you watch it?
当你观看的时候，你会期待吗？
Like, "Here comes the dopamine hit."
就像，“多巴胺来了。”
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Sometimes.
有时。
Sometimes when it happens, it's exciting.
有时当它发生时，会令人兴奋。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He's going up for the three-pointer.
他正准备投三分球。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Sometimes it's exciting.
有时很令人兴奋。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
But do you enjoy-
但你喜欢吗——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
But even then, it's like the stakes are low.
但即便如此，风险似乎也很低。
It's like I don't really care what happens, which feels good, that I'm just being entertained.
就好像我并不真正关心发生了什么，这感觉很好，我只是被娱乐了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do they actually get hurt sometimes?
他们有时真的会受伤吗？
You said they do.
你说他们有。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
A lot.
很多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Often.
经常。
They do.
他们确实这么做了。
They're basically stuntmen, so imagine stuntmen getting hurt doing a crazy stunt.
他们基本上都是特技演员，所以想象一下特技演员在做疯狂的特技时受伤。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well-
嗯-
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Happens all the time
一直在发生
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
well, in the movie "The Wrestler," I remember he got staples stapled into him, and I thought, "That's pretty intense." I once went and saw, I guess they called it Mexican wrestling, I don't know if they call it that anymore, where the guys dip their hands-
嗯，在电影《摔跤手》中，我记得他身上钉着订书钉，我想，“这太激烈了。”我曾经去看过，我猜他们称之为墨西哥摔跤，我不知道他们是否再这么称呼它，人们把手伸进去-
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Lucha Libre.
自由摔跤。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, they dip their hands in glass.
是的，他们把手伸进玻璃里。
This was in Sacramento, and I went and saw it, and I honestly didn't have a stomach for it.
这是在萨克拉门托，我去看了，老实说我不喜欢它。
I really didn't.
我真的没有。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I couldn't believe it was legal.
我简直不敢相信这是合法的。
It might not have been legal.
这可能不合法。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I thought-
但我想——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
There's crazy stuff in wrestling sometimes.
摔跤有时会发生一些疯狂的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
So before sleep, is that typically when you watch wrestling?
那么，在睡觉前，你通常会看摔跤吗？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you think it's useful for people to have some activity that allows them to kind of clear their mind and create peace before heading off to sleep?
您认为人们在入睡前进行一些活动可以让他们理清思绪并创造平静，这有用吗？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I think so.
我想是的。
And I think yoga nidras would be good.
我认为瑜伽休息术会很好。
It's like yoga nidra, pro wrestling, any of the-
这就像瑜伽休息术、职业摔跤，或者任何一种——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah
是啊
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
...
...
any of those type things.
任何这些类型的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, not watching the Dahmer thing.
是啊，没看达默的事。
I won't watch that.
我不会看那个。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
I don't watch any horror, anything, or I don't like violent things.
我不看恐怖片什么的，或者说我不喜欢暴力的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I know it exists.
我知道它存在。
I know horrible things happen in the world, but I certainly don't want to do that before sleep.
我知道世界上会发生可怕的事情，但我当然不想在睡觉前这样做。
I think these liminal states before and emerging from sleep are very powerful.
我认为睡眠前和睡眠后的这些阈限状态非常强大。
When you wake up in the morning, are your thoughts immediately structured, or do you enjoy the kind of clearing of the clouds?
当你早上醒来时，你的思绪是立即结构化，还是享受那种拨云见日的感觉？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
It's a slow process for me to wake up, and I like that.
对我来说，醒来是一个缓慢的过程，我喜欢这样。
I like not engaging too much too soon.
我喜欢不要太快参与太多。
I usually fall asleep listening to a lecture or something speaking, because if I don't, I can get caught in my own thoughts, and listening to something is enough of a focus point that it stops me from talking to myself.
我通常会在听讲座或演讲时睡着，因为如果我不这样做，我就会陷入自己的想法中，而听一些东西就足以成为一个焦点，它会阻止我自言自语。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I do the same.
我也这样做。
My grandfather listened to sports on the radio.
我的祖父在广播中收听体育节目。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And he would fall asleep oftentimes he was a smoker with a cigarette in his mouth.
而且他经常抽烟，嘴里叼着烟就睡着了。
His wife's responsibility was to stay up later than he did to make sure he didn't burn everything down.
他妻子的责任是比他熬夜，以确保他不会烧毁所有东西。
And then when you wake up, you said it's a slow process.
然后当你醒来时，你说这是一个缓慢的过程。
Is it an hour or two before you feel like you're-
是不是过了一两个小时你才感觉自己——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I would say probably an hour.
我想说大概一个小时。
I usually wake up and try to get in the sun as soon as I possibly can, and hope to spend about an hour, and then I'll usually go for a walk on the beach for another hour or 90 minutes, depending.
我通常醒来后会尽快享受阳光，希望能花大约一个小时，然后我通常会再去海滩散步一个小时或 90 分钟，具体时间取决于情况。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are you with family members and other people at that time?
当时您和家人以及其他人在一起吗？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
No, I'm usually focused by myself.
不，我通常都是一个人专注。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Phone?
电话？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I'll be listening to something.
我会听一些东西。
I don't look at the phone, but I listen.
我不看电话，但我听。
I listen to, again, a lecture or podcast or-
我再次听讲座或播客，或者-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
...
...
audiobook.
有声读物。
I like audiobooks a lot.
我非常喜欢有声读物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I do, too.
是的，我也是。
If an idea comes to mind, do you write it down?
如果想到一个想法，你会把它写下来吗？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I may.
我可能会。
It depends.
这取决于。
I like to.
我喜欢。
I usually would do a note in my phone.
我通常会在手机上做笔记。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I don't usually carry pen and paper with me when I'm walking.
我走路时通常不带笔和纸。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I do the same.
我也这样做。
I do a long Sunday hike or jog, and I will audio script into my phone.
我周日会进行一次长时间的远足或慢跑，然后将音频脚本输入手机中。
People sometimes give me funny looks because I'm talking to myself, and I just like-
有时人们会用奇怪的眼神看我，因为我在自言自语，而我只是喜欢——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
That's a nice way to do it, though.
不过，这是一个很好的方法。
I'd like to learn more of the audio methods of doing it instead of the typing methods.
我想了解更多的音频方法而不是打字方法。
Right now, I type, and I don't think it's the best way.
现在，我打字，但我认为这不是最好的方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The voice memos function in the iPhone and other phones is really good, and there are now companies like rev.com that will turn those into Word doc scripts-
iPhone和其他手机中的语音备忘录功能确实很好，现在有像rev.com这样的公司将其转换为Word文档脚本-
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Great
太棒了
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that are fairly well corrected.
已得到相当好的纠正。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Great.
太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, they're not a sponsor of the podcast.
不，他们不是播客的赞助商。
I just happen to use it.
我只是碰巧使用它。
It's great.
这很棒。
I actually learned that trick from Richard Axel, the Nicorette chewing-
我实际上是从理查德阿克塞尔那里学来的这个技巧，尼古雷特咀嚼-
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
wild man, Nobel Prize winner.
野人，诺贝尔奖获得者。
He writes manuscripts by walking around his office, pacing and talking into his phone.
他在办公室里走来走去、踱来踱去、对着手机通话来撰写手稿。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I always think of the Woody Allen movie where the Alan Alda character is-
我总是想起伍迪·艾伦的电影，艾伦·阿尔达的角色是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
With the microphone
带麦克风
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
...
...
talking about...
谈论...
Yeah.
是的。
He's speaking comedy ideas into the phone.
他正在对着电话讲喜剧创意。
It's really pretentious.
实在是太矫情了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I liked that movie about Harvey Milk.
我喜欢那部关于哈维·米尔克的电影。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sean Penn played Harvey Milk.
西恩·潘饰演哈维·米尔克。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because that all took place before I was alive, mostly in the Bay Area.
因为这一切都发生在我还活着之前，大部分发生在湾区。
But there's these beautiful scenes of him, as I recall, sitting there at his kitchen table, talking into a tape recorder at night, talking about how he predicted that he would be possibly assassinated, et cetera.
但我记得，他有这些美丽的场景，晚上坐在厨房的桌子旁，对着录音机说话，谈论他如何预测自己可能会被暗杀，等等。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And this goes back to the Strummer thing about writing things down.
这可以追溯到斯特拉默关于把事情写下来的事情。
I think that a lot of people, including myself, feel a little bit of egotistical guilt around like, "Who am I to think that my ideas could be worthwhile or something?" But I think over time, I've come to realize that the ideas about experiments or questions I have about health, they don't always but oftentimes can lead to real seeds that grow into these trees.
我认为很多人，包括我自己，都会感到一点自私的负罪感，比如“我是谁，我的想法可能是有价值的？”但我认为，随着时间的推移，我逐渐意识到，关于实验的想法或我对健康的疑问，它们并不总是但经常可以导致真正的种子长成这些树。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
But it's something that's interesting to you.
但这是你感兴趣的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.
别人怎么想并不重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Most of my notes are not for anyone else's-
我的大部分笔记不是为其他人准备的-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
...
...
for anyone else's use.
供其他人使用。
I hear about something that's interesting to me, and I think about, "Okay, I want to learn more about this," whatever it is.
我听到一些我感兴趣的事情，然后我想，“好吧，我想了解更多相关信息”，无论它是什么。
And then sometimes those things work their way into things I'm doing because the universe seems to work in that way.
有时这些事情会影响我正在做的事情，因为宇宙似乎就是这样运作的。
But I rarely am learning something with the idea of using it.
但我很少带着使用的想法来学习一些东西。
I learn things with the idea of, "This is what I want to know.
我学习东西的想法是：“这就是我想知道的。
This is what's interesting to me." And then often those things that are interesting to me can find their way into other projects just because they do.
这就是我感兴趣的地方。”通常，那些我感兴趣的事情可以找到进入其他项目的方式，因为它们确实如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
It's almost like coal or kindling, but the moment that you think of it that way, it sort of sounds so extractive, right?
它几乎就像煤炭或引火物，但当你这样想的那一刻，它听起来是如此的抽取，对吧？
So you take this walk and you're writing down the occasional idea, perhaps, and then what is the next sort of the way that-- Here are less than do this, than this, than that.
所以你走这条路，你可能会写下偶尔的想法，然后接下来的方式是什么——这里比做这个、比这个、比那个更少。
I'm interested in where does your mind shift to?
我感兴趣的是你的心思转向哪里？
Does it become more structured as the day goes on?
随着时间的推移，它会变得更加结构化吗？
Does your thinking become more structured around projects and plans?
您的思维是否围绕项目和计划变得更加结构化？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I try to deal with things that need dealing with after that and in preparation for going to work.
我会尝试处理之后需要处理的事情，并为上班做准备。
And then when I go to work, it's more like this free thing where I'm, again, hoping something good comes, welcoming something good, paying attention, and maybe trying to will it to happen, but knowing I don't have the ability to make it happen.
然后当我去工作时，它更像是这种免费的事情，我再次希望有好事发生，欢迎好事，关注，也许试图让它发生，但知道我没有能力让它发生。
I can just be present for it and be ready if it does arrive.
我可以在场，并在它到达时做好准备。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some of the more surprising, and I found really interesting and useful features of the book, were about dancing with structure and lack of structure.
我发现这本书的一些更令人惊讶且非常有趣和有用的功能是关于有结构和缺乏结构的舞蹈。
So when I think of structure, I think of deadlines.
因此，当我想到结构时，我就会想到最后期限。
So when you are in the process of creating something, obviously deadlines are relevant.
因此，当您正在创建某些东西时，显然截止日期是相关的。
Time of day, right?
一天中的某个时间，对吧？
There's only so many hours in the day where one can stay in the groove or in this readiness to receive.
一天中只有那么几个小时，人们可以保持最佳状态或做好接受的准备。
Have you ever found yourself in that mode where you're kind of grinding like, "Ah, here we are.
你是否曾经发现自己处于这样一种模式：“啊，我们到了。
Okay, I'm not coming home for dinner tonight.
好吧，我今晚不回家吃饭了。
It's the next-- We're going to push."
接下来是——我们要努力。”
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We're like the put on the coffee pot kind of thing.
我们就像放在咖啡壶上一样。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
A lot.
很多。
Over the course of my life, a lot.
在我的一生中，有很多。
Not as much now.
现在没那么多了。
And one of the things that I discovered through working on the book was the phases of work.
我在写这本书的过程中发现的一件事是工作的阶段。
We're not required to treat the different phases of work in the same way.
我们不需要以同样的方式对待不同阶段的工作。
Whereas before, I did.
而以前，我做到了。
Before, everything was in this state of play.
之前，一切都是这样的状态。
Everything had a wide-open time schedule.
一切都有一个广泛的时间表。
It happens when it happens, and if it takes two years or three years, it doesn't matter.
该发生的时候就发生了，如果需要两年、三年也无所谓。
It's not about that.
不是这个问题。
It's only about this thing has to be great.
只是这件事必须很棒。
And what I came to realize in working on the book is that there are different phases, and the first phase is this seed collecting phase, which is kind of an ongoing part of life in general.
我在写这本书的过程中意识到，有不同的阶段，第一个阶段是种子收集阶段，这是一般生活中持续的一部分。
I do that always, whether I'm working on something or not.
无论我是否在做某事，我总是这样做。
I'm always in the seed collecting phase, and there's no deadline.
我总是处于种子收集阶段，而且没有截止日期。
Or just anything that interests me that I think I want to learn more about or has potential to be something.
或者只是任何我感兴趣的、我认为我想了解更多或有潜力成为某事的事情。
Anything.
任何事物。
I hear something, think, "Hmm, I'd like to read more about that." Or, "I wonder if there's a movie about that.
我听到一些东西，想，“嗯，我想了解更多相关内容。”或者，“我想知道是否有一部电影是关于这个的。
Is there a movie about that?
有关于这个的电影吗？
If not, maybe there's a movie to be made." Again, this is something I want in my life.
如果没有的话，也许有一部电影要拍。”再说一遍，这是我一生中想要的东西。
Let's see if it exists.
让我们看看它是否存在。
If it doesn't exist, then maybe that's something interesting to pursue.
如果它不存在，那么也许这是值得追求的有趣的事情。
But I know that the desire is there because I have it.
但我知道这个愿望是存在的，因为我有它。
So in the seed phase, there's no deadlines.
所以在种子阶段，没有最后期限。
It's just a wide-open part.
这只是一个完全开放的部分。
And then the next phase is called the experimentation phase, where you start experimenting to see what the seeds want to do.
然后下一阶段称为实验阶段，您开始实验看看种子想要做什么。
You're involved, but you're not really dictating the action.
你参与其中，但你并没有真正决定行动。
You're setting the stage for something to happen, but it's not about you yet.
你正在为某件事的发生做好准备，但这还不是关于你的。
So it'd be like the equivalent of you'd plant the seed, you would water it, you would make sure it was in the sun, and you'd wait.
所以这就相当于你种下了种子，你会浇水，你会确保它在阳光下，然后你会等待。
So you're involved, but you can't make it grow.
所以你参与了，但你无法让它成长。
And then when it sprouts and it grows and/or if it turns into a plant, then you can look at the plant and say, "Okay, what's the potential of this plant?" And then the third phase is the crafting phase, where it's like, okay, I have this plant, maybe I'm going to trim it.
然后当它发芽、生长和/或变成植物时，你可以看着这株植物并说：“好吧，这株植物有什么潜力？”然后第三阶段是制作阶段，就像，好吧，我有这种植物，也许我要修剪它。
Or maybe I'm going to combine it with these other plants to make something else with it.
或者也许我会将它与其他植物结合起来制作其他东西。
Now it's like material that you have.
现在它就像你拥有的材料一样。
And then finally is the completion or finishing phase, which is the final edit, getting to the version of it that's the one that you can share with the world, if that's something you're going to do.
最后是完成或完成阶段，这是最后的编辑，得到可以与世界分享的版本，如果这是你要做的事情的话。
And I've come to realize that by the time you're going into the completion phase, you can have a deadline, and it won't hurt the project.
我逐渐意识到，当你进入完成阶段时，你可以有一个最后期限，而且这不会损害项目。
In fact, it might help the project.
事实上，这可能对项目有所帮助。
And I didn't know that before.
我以前并不知道这一点。
So I've worked on projects that have gone longer than they necessarily needed to, and maybe not in the best interest of the project because I didn't know that.
因此，我所从事的项目的时间超出了所需的时间，而且可能不符合项目的最佳利益，因为我不知道这一点。
I didn't understand the timing of that.
我不明白这个时间点。
Because I am so aware of the necessity in the experimental phase to not have a deadline, that I assumed that held through the whole project.
因为我非常清楚在实验阶段没有最后期限的必要性，所以我认为整个项目都是如此。
And it's not a clear phase one finishes, and then you start phase two.
并没有明确第一阶段结束，然后开始第二阶段。
Phase two finishes, and then you start phase three.
第二阶段结束，然后开始第三阶段。
You move back and forth between them.
你在它们之间来回移动。
I'm collecting seeds all the time.
我一直在收集种子。
I'm always in phase one.
我总是处于第一阶段。
And then- Probably to some degree, there's always some version of experimentation going on.
然后——也许在某种程度上，总会有某种版本的实验在进行。
Maybe not now, but if something's on a list of things I want to look at, hopefully I'll get to the list and give them some experimentation and see what they can turn into.
也许现在还不行，但如果我想看的东西清单上有什么东西，希望我能进入清单并给他们一些实验，看看它们能变成什么。
And then if they do turn into something, then they get to the crafting phase where it's more, okay, now I have this thing.
然后，如果它们确实变成了某种东西，那么它们就会进入制作阶段，更多的是，好吧，现在我有了这个东西。
What do I know about this kind of thing?
我对这种事情了解多少？
What can I match this with?
我可以用什么来搭配这个呢？
What can I use this for?
我可以用这个做什么？
How can I be involved as a craftsman?
作为一名工匠，我怎样才能参与其中？
And by the end of the crafting phase or deep into the crafting phase, you can start seeing the end.
在制作阶段结束或深入制作阶段时，您可以开始看到结局。
You can start seeing an end, and then you can even dictate an end.
你可以开始看到结局，然后你甚至可以决定一个结局。
But I recommend if you do, just dictate it for you, not for anyone else, because if something comes up where you learn, if you set a deadline, a public deadline, and then a new discovery happens along the way and you realize, oh, this could actually be much better than I thought, but I need more time.
但我建议，如果你这样做，就为你口述，而不是为其他任何人，因为如果你学习的地方出现了一些事情，如果你设定了一个截止日期，一个公开的截止日期，然后一路上发生了新的发现，你意识到，哦，这实际上可能比我想象的要好得多，但我需要更多时间。
It's harder to do that if you set the deadline.
如果你设定了最后期限，那就更难做到了。
So I would say have an internal deadline to get to finish it.
所以我想说有一个内部截止日期来完成它。
That said, if an unusual situation comes up and it's better for everything not to meet that deadline, it's one of those rules that you set the rule to break it if it's what's best for the project.
也就是说，如果出现不寻常的情况，并且最好不要在截止日期前完成所有事情，那么您可以设置规则之一来打破它，如果这对项目来说是最好的。
But that was a new thing for me, and it helped me a lot.
但这对我来说是新事物，对我帮助很大。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When did you realize that?
你什么时候意识到这一点的？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
In collecting the material for the book and thinking about it, when I realized that it was phases, I didn't know any of this.
在收集这本书的材料并思考它时，当我意识到它是阶段时，我对此一无所知。
When I started writing the book, I didn't know hardly any of the things in the book.
当我开始写这本书时，我对书中的内容几乎一无所知。
Most of it would be reverse engineering something that I had experience or successful experience using these methods without knowing they were methods.
其中大部分都是逆向工程，我使用这些方法有过或成功的经验，但不知道它们是方法。
Just following my instincts got me to something good.
跟随我的直觉让我得到了一些好的东西。
And then I would look back at why did I want to do that?
然后我会回顾自己为什么要这么做？
And is there a principle at play that could be of use outside of this case?
是否存在可以在本案之外使用的原则？
And how do I explain that?
我该如何解释呢？
And that's what the book is, is these reverse engineered principles that have led to good decision making in trying to make things.
这就是这本书的内容，这些逆向工程原理导致了在尝试制造事物时做出良好的决策。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The chapter on self-doubt was really interesting to me, as where all-
关于自我怀疑的章节对我来说真的很有趣，因为所有 -
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Tell me what it says because I can't remember.
告诉我上面写了什么，因为我不记得了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I'll read the first sentence of it, which is that, "Self-doubt lives in all of us.
好吧，我来读一下它的第一句话，那就是，“自我怀疑存在于我们所有人之中。
And while we may wish it was gone, it is there to serve us." And it goes on to describe how to dance with self-doubt, in not so many words.
虽然我们可能希望它消失，但它是为我们服务的。”接下来，它用不多的语言描述了如何带着自我怀疑跳舞。
I think there's a saying that is actually from the landscape of psychology, which is generally discussed in a kind of pathological context, which is, if nothing matters, anything goes.
我认为有一句话实际上来自心理学领域，通常在一种病态的背景下讨论，这就是，如果没有什么重要的，一切都会发生。
This is usually the phrase used to describe people who feel as if there's no use in living, so just go crazy, often to self-destruct.
这通常用来形容那些感觉活着没有用处、所以发疯、常常自我毁灭的人。
But there's a light version of this, I realize, where in some sense, the creative process seems to have something to do with if you're not paying attention to what outcomes are, like who likes it, who doesn't like it, and you're just doing it for you, you make the rule play, I want to delight myself.
但我意识到，这有一个简单的版本，从某种意义上说，如果你不关注结果是什么，比如谁喜欢它，谁不喜欢它，你只是在为你做这件事，你制定规则，我想取悦自己，那么创作过程似乎与此有关。
Well then anything goes, and you have an infinite rule set there to extract from, at least initially.
好吧，那么任何事情都会发生，并且你有一个无限的规则集可以从中提取，至少在最初是这样。
So as one gets better at their craft, you can imagine self-doubt goes down.
因此，当一个人的手艺变得更好时，你可以想象自我怀疑会减少。
I think that's the perception of a lot of people, right?
我想这是很多人的看法吧？
You get better at what you're doing.
你在做的事情上会做得更好。
You can land more free throws as a basketball player.
作为一名篮球运动员，你可以获得更多的罚球机会。
You can hit more home runs as a baseball player.
作为一名棒球运动员，您可以打出更多本垒打。
You can produce more platinum albums as an artist.
作为艺术家，你可以制作更多的白金专辑。
Self-confidence goes up.
自信心上升。
Self-doubt goes down.
自我怀疑感下降。
But I think you and I both know a number of people who are successful enough to know that oftentimes there's a mirror image to that, where people feel pressure because they did it once, now they got to do it again.
但我想你和我都认识一些足够成功的人，他们知道，往往会有一个镜像，人们感到压力，因为他们曾经做过一次，现在他们必须再做一次。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
Or that you think you're so good at it that it comes easily, and you don't have to apply yourself.
或者你认为你很擅长这件事，所以它很容易实现，你不需要自己努力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Arrogance.
傲慢。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
So self-doubt, it's a check on yourself.
所以自我怀疑，就是对自己的检查。
It can either be really helpful or it can undermine you.
它可能对你很有帮助，也可能会损害你。
So it's something we all have, and if we let it undermine us, then we don't make anything, and that's not good.
所以这是我们所有人都拥有的东西，如果我们让它削弱我们，那么我们就什么也做不了，这不好。
But when used as a balancing tool in our lives, it serves a great function where we really do-- It's okay to have all the confidence in the world and still second guess, is this the best it can be?
但当它被用作我们生活中的平衡工具时，它在我们真正做的事情上发挥了巨大的作用——对世界充满信心，但仍然怀疑，这是最好的吗？
You can doubt, I think the phrase is in the book, you can doubt your way to a great work, to a masterpiece.
你可以怀疑，我想这句话就在书中，你可以怀疑自己通往一部伟大作品、一部杰作的道路。
Sometimes that questioning allows you to push further than just accepting, I made it, so it's good.
有时，这种质疑可以让你走得更远，而不仅仅是接受，我做到了，所以这很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I've encountered more people that seem to be driven by self-doubt and the need to constantly perform and perform again than I have real arrogance.
我遇到过更多的人，他们似乎是被自我怀疑和不断表现和再次表现的需要所驱使，而不是我真正的傲慢。
Just that's been my experience, fortunately.
幸运的是，这就是我的经历。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've met some arrogant people in my life.
我一生中遇到过一些傲慢的人。
And of course, we never, as a psychiatrist who I admire a lot and bioengineer who was a guest on this podcast, Karl Deisseroth said, we never really know how other people feel.
当然，作为我非常钦佩的精神病学家和本播客嘉宾的生物工程师，卡尔·戴瑟罗斯说，我们永远不会真正了解其他人的感受。
I mean, most of the time, we don't even know how we feel.
我的意思是，大多数时候，我们甚至不知道自己的感受。
Again, language is a very deprived format for explaining feelings.
再说一次，语言是一种非常缺乏解释感受的方式。
So we think somebody feels one way, and it could be another, but we observe their behavior.
所以我们认为某人有一种感觉，也可能是另一种，但我们会观察他们的行为。
So in the sense of returning to the work, just always returning to process.
因此，从回归工作的意义上来说，就是始终回归流程。
It sounds like your routine is fairly scripted, at least now.
听起来你的日常工作是相当有脚本的，至少现在是这样。
But the things that you are getting in touch with, wrestling, sleep and dreaming, the ocean, there's a predictability of them because you can access them in a predictable way, but they seem to have a lot of unpredictability in them.
但是你接触到的事物，摔跤、睡眠和做梦、海洋，它们是可预测的，因为你可以以可预测的方式接触它们，但它们似乎有很多不可预测性。
The ocean is completely unpredictable.
海洋是完全不可预测的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I also listen to a lot of music that I don't know.
我也听很多我不认识的音乐。
So I listen to a lot of classical music, and less so, but some jazz, and a lot of old music that I never heard before.
所以我听很多古典音乐，也听得比较少，但听一些爵士乐，还有很多我以前从未听过的老音乐。
And I like being surprised by music.
我喜欢音乐带来的惊喜。
And sometimes it really catches me off guard.
有时它真的让我措手不及。
I Shazam a lot when I hear something I like.
当我听到我喜欢的东西时，我会经常使用 Shazam。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Have you ever encountered music that really works well live but just does not work in a recording?
您是否遇到过现场演奏效果很好但录音效果却不佳的音乐？
Or that is that much better live, but the recording is sort of meh?
或者说现场表演更好，但录音却有点乏味？
You don't have to name names.
你不必指名道姓。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah, I don't think so.
是的，我不这么认为。
I feel like maybe there are some artists who are great live who've never captured it well on record.
我觉得也许有些艺术家的现场表演很棒，但从未将其记录下来。
Example would probably be the Grateful Dead's a good example of a band where I feel like their albums are not their strong point, but if you hear live recordings, they're really interesting and really different from each other.
感恩之死乐队就是一个很好的例子，我觉得他们的专辑不是他们的强项，但如果你听现场录音，他们真的很有趣，而且彼此之间真的很不同。
And that's part of what makes the Grateful Dead interesting is their unpredictability.
感恩而死乐队之所以有趣，部分原因在于他们的不可预测性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I confess, I had a sister who listened to Grateful Dead, and I got taken to a few shows when I was younger, and they would do that, what is it called?
我承认，我有一个姐姐听《Grateful Dead》，我年轻的时候就被带去看了几场演出，他们会这么做，这叫什么？
Space?
空间？
It was like these drum solos that would go on for hours and hours.
就像这些鼓独奏会持续几个小时。
This is like the antithesis of punk rock shows where songs are like 90 to 120 seconds.
这就像朋克摇滚表演的对立面，朋克摇滚表演的歌曲长度约为 90 到 120 秒。
And I remember thinking, "What is this?" But people I know who love the Grateful Dead love that uncertainty about where that drum thing...
我记得当时我在想：“这是什么？”但我认识的喜欢感恩而死乐队的人喜欢那种鼓的不确定性……
I think they do call it space.
我认为他们确实称之为空间。
Forgive me, Deadheads.
原谅我，死头族。
I'm not enough of one to get it right.
我还不足以把事情做好。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
But they're looking for something.
但他们正在寻找一些东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
And sometimes they find it.
有时他们会找到它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
And if you're there when they find it, it feels exciting because it's not just following a script.
如果当他们找到它时你就在场，那感觉会很令人兴奋，因为它不只是遵循脚本。
It's like something is really happening.
就好像真的有什么事情正在发生一样。
It's a real moment.
这是一个真实的时刻。
Something that I aim for in the studio is to create real moments that when you hear them, they don't necessarily sound perfect, they sound like something that really happened, and in that moment, something happened, and it's a special moment.
我在录音室的目标是创造真实的时刻，当你听到它们时，它们听起来不一定是完美的，它们听起来像是真正发生过的事情，在那一刻，发生了一些事情，这是一个特殊的时刻。
And you can feel that if they were to play it again, it wouldn't be like that.
你可以感觉到，如果他们再玩一次，就不会是这样了。
There's something really exciting about that.
这确实令人兴奋。
It's how jazz works as well, and I think bringing some of that jazz mentality into other types of music is really interesting, makes for compelling things, because when you hear them, there's a certain amount of-- You really have to pay attention to do it.
这也是爵士乐的运作方式，我认为将一些爵士乐心态带入其他类型的音乐中真的很有趣，会产生引人注目的东西，因为当你听到它们时，有一定数量的——你真的必须注意去做。
When you're doing it, you're really paying attention.
当你这样做的时候，你真的很注意。
It's like, I don't really know.
就像，我真的不知道。
There's no music.
没有音乐。
There's no map to follow, and now we're working together to make something.
没有地图可供遵循，现在我们正在共同努力做一些事情。
Do I play or not play?
我玩还是不玩？
When do I play?
我什么时候玩？
And you're really paying attention, and can I add?
你真的很关注，我可以补充一下吗？
Or you go to start adding something and someone else added something, and it's like, "Oh, I can't do that." And it's like everyone's just in this moment, experiencing this thing at once, that you can feel as a listener, and we get to hear their excitement of finding it, and it's thrilling when it happens.
或者你开始添加一些东西，而其他人添加了一些东西，就像，“哦，我不能这样做。”就好像每个人都在这一刻，同时体验这件事，你可以作为一个听众感受到，我们可以听到他们发现它的兴奋，当它发生时，这是令人兴奋的。
So I like that experience, and I feel like that's kind of what the Dead do live.
所以我喜欢那种经历，我觉得这就是死者的生活。
They'll play songs in different ways.
他们会以不同的方式演奏歌曲。
And again, I don't know very much about the Dead, and it's newer for me to listen to the Dead.
再说一次，我对死者了解不多，而且听死者的声音对我来说是新鲜事。
Growing up, I never listened to the Dead.
从小到大，我从来没有听过死者的声音。
But probably because I heard songs on their albums and thought, "This doesn't really speak to me." But I think that the albums don't really reflect what's special about them.
但可能是因为我听到了他们专辑中的歌曲，然后想：“这并不能真正对我说话。”但我认为这些专辑并没有真正反映出它们的特别之处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think a lot of their shows were recorded, right?
我想他们的很多节目都被录制了，对吧？
Or videotaped.
或者录像。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
So they should-
所以他们应该——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
But by fans-
但在粉丝看来——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
...
...
which they supported.
他们支持。
They supported that everybody come, everybody tape, everybody trade tapes.
他们支持每个人都来，每个人都录制磁带，每个人都交换磁带。
It made sense for who that band was.
这对乐队来说是有道理的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They redefined, or they defined, excuse me, the notion of followers.
他们重新定义了，或者他们定义了，对不起，追随者的概念。
People literally gave up their lives or spent much of their lives-
人们实际上放弃了自己的生命，或者度过了生命的大部分时间——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
literally driving from city to city to follow them, which-
真的是开车从一个城市到另一个城市跟随他们，这——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Because it's not like going from city to city to watch a movie over and over, because it's not a movie.
因为这不像从一个城市到另一个城市一遍又一遍地看电影，因为它不是电影。
It's different every night.
每晚都不一样。
It's changing.
它正在改变。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Pretty incredible phenomenon.
相当令人难以置信的现象。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
It's fascinating.
这很有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't know of anything else quite like it except cults, and those often don't end well.
除了邪教之外，我不知道还有什么类似的事情，而且这些邪教往往不会有好结果。
I think a guy that mixed the punch for the Jonestown Massacre went to my high school.
我认为一个为琼斯镇大屠杀混音的人就读于我的高中。
That was the-
那是——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Is that true?
这是真的吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think so, yeah.
我想是的，是的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
That's amazing.
太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My sister is really good at all this kind of like '70s, '80s-
我姐姐真的很擅长这些70年代、80年代的东西-
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
dark psychology trivia.
黑暗心理学琐事。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
She's a very light person, but yeah.
她是一个很轻松的人，但是是的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Did you read "Season of the Witch?"
你读过《女巫的季节》吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No.
不。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
It's about San Francisco in the '60s.
这是关于 60 年代旧金山的故事。
It's great.
这很棒。
You'll love it.
你一定会喜欢它的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One-
一-
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Great book.
很棒的书。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'll have to check it out.
我得去检查一下。
The way you describe experiences going by in time, or things emerging in time, and the creative process being a way of sort of capturing those moments, maybe rearranging, maybe watering, et cetera, I thought was beautifully captured in the analogy you gave about a conveyor belt going by Of things, right?
你描述随时间流逝的经历，或随时间出现的事物的方式，以及创作过程是一种捕捉这些时刻的方式，也许是重新安排，也许是浇水等等，我认为你对传送带经过的事物的类比很好地捕捉到了，对吧？
That we think of the creative process like it's going to land in us or we're going to enter it, or that we're going to sit there in a chair and grit our teeth.
我们认为创意过程就像它会落在我们身上，或者我们会进入它，或者我们会坐在椅子上咬紧牙关。
There's some Hemingway quote where you just sit there and stare at the page until the beads of blood form on your forehead or something.
有一句海明威的名言，你就坐在那里，盯着书页，直到额头上出现血珠之类的。
Maybe it was him.
也许就是他。
I don't know.
我不知道。
It sounds like Bukowski or something.
听起来像是布考斯基之类的。
Anyway, I'm going to get this wrong.
不管怎样，我会弄错的。
People tell me in the comments.
人们在评论中告诉我。
Maybe no one said it.
也许没有人说过。
It was a dream.
这是一个梦。
But I love this conveyor belt thing.
但我喜欢这个传送带的东西。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That reminds me of being in laboratory, doing experiments thinking I was trying to solve one thing, and then seeing something else, and then having to make the decision, like, is that really cool enough to drop everything and go that direction or to kind of spend a night or a week or a career going that way?
这让我想起在实验室里，做实验，想着我试图解决一件事，然后看到其他东西，然后必须做出决定，比如，这真的足够酷吗，可以放弃一切，朝那个方向发展，或者花一个晚上、一周或一个职业生涯朝这个方向发展吗？
These are kind of big decisions given that at least as far as we know, we're going to live 100 years or less.
这些都是重大决定，因为至少据我们所知，我们的寿命将是 100 岁或更短。
But this idea that we have thoughts and experiences in our past, and we can draw on and try to make good decisions.
但这种想法是我们过去有想法和经验，我们可以借鉴并尝试做出正确的决定。
Do we grab these things off the conveyor or not?
我们是否从传送带上抓起这些东西？
I'm hearing you, and I'm starting to realize that being attached to the past might be the worst thing that one could do in terms of being able to make good decisions in this context.
我听到了你的声音，我开始意识到，在这种情况下，就能够做出正确的决定而言，执着于过去可能是最糟糕的事情。
Because we have a kind of playbook of what's worked and what hasn't worked, but you actually talk about this.
因为我们有一套关于什么有效、什么无效的剧本，但你实际上谈论了这个。
There's a passage in the book, I'll just read it.
书上有一段话，我就看一下。
"To be beware of the assumption that the way you work is the best way simply because it's the way you've done it before." I sat with this page for almost 10 full minutes, which is not something I do very often.
“要小心，不要仅仅因为你以前这样做过，就认为你的工作方式就是最好的方式。”我在这个页面上坐了将近 10 分钟，这不是我经常做的事情。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe you could elaborate on this a little bit.
也许你可以详细说明一下。
We want to have mechanisms and routines we can trust.
我们希望拥有值得信赖的机制和惯例。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But this is, I think, an important warning.
但我认为这是一个重要的警告。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
When something works, it's easy to be fooled into believing that's the way to do it or that's the right way.
当某件事有效时，人们很容易被愚弄，相信这就是做这件事的方法或者这是正确的方法。
It's just a way, and it's just a way that happened to work that time.
这只是一种方法，而且只是当时碰巧起作用的一种方法。
And this plays into when you get advice from people who have more experience than you.
当你从比你更有经验的人那里得到建议时，这一点就会发挥作用。
You explain your situation, they tell you their advice.
你解释你的情况，他们告诉你他们的建议。
The advice that they're giving you is not based on your life or your experience, it's based on their life and their experience.
他们给您的建议不是基于您的生活或经验，而是基于他们的生活和经验。
And the stories that they're telling are based on experiences they've had that have very different data points than yours.
他们讲述的故事是基于他们的经历，这些经历的数据点与你的非常不同。
So maybe they're giving you good advice, but maybe they're giving you good advice for them and not giving you good advice for you.
所以也许他们给了你好的建议，但也许他们给了你对他们好的建议而不是给了你好的建议。
And it's easy when we try something and have a result, a positive result, thinking everybody can do this.
当我们尝试某件事并获得结果、积极的结果并认为每个人都能做到时，这很容易。
I was vegan for a long time, 22 years, and then I started eating animal protein, and then eventually changed my diet a few times to the point where I lost a lot of weight.
我吃素很长一段时间，22年，然后我开始吃动物蛋白，最后几次改变我的饮食习惯，直到我体重减轻了很多。
The way that I did it worked for me.
我这样做的方式对我有用。
Right before that happened, I did something that I was told that everyone else who did what you did, they all lost weight.
就在这件事发生之前，我做了一件事，有人告诉我，其他做了你所做的事情的人都减肥了。
For whatever reason, I didn't.
不管出于什么原因，我没有。
So the idea that we know what's right for someone else, I think it's hard enough to even figure out what's right for ourselves, and if we do somehow crack the code of what's right for us, be happy we have it, and then still know, I wonder if that's the only way.
因此，我们知道什么对别人来说是正确的，我认为甚至弄清楚什么对我们自己来说是正确的，这已经足够困难了，如果我们确实以某种方式破解了对我们来说正确的代码，我们会很高兴我们拥有它，然后仍然知道，我想知道这是否是唯一的方法。
Maybe there's an even better way that we're not considering.
也许还有我们没有考虑的更好的方法。
Not to get comfortable with thinking we know how it works just because we get the outcome we want.
不要仅仅因为得到了我们想要的结果就认为我们知道它是如何运作的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I was raised in science with a principle.
我是在科学中长大的，有一个原则。
It was literally dictated to me as a principle, almost like a rule of religion, which was that the brain is plastic.
这实际上是对我口授的一项原则，几乎就像宗教规则一样，那就是大脑是可塑的。
It can change and learn until you're about 25, and then the critical periods end, and that's it.
它可以改变和学习，直到你 25 岁左右，然后关键时期结束，仅此而已。
And this was a rule, essentially, it was dictated a Nobel Prize, which was very deserved, given to my scientific great-grandparents.
这是一条规则，本质上是规定了诺贝尔奖，这是当之无愧的，颁给了我从事科学工作的曾祖父母。
They deserve it.
他们应得的。
But I was told there was no changing of brain structure function in any meaningful way after age 25 or so.
但有人告诉我，25 岁左右之后，大脑结构功能就不会发生任何有意义的变化。
Turns out that's completely wrong.
事实证明这是完全错误的。
Sorry, David and Torsten, but they knew it was wrong.
抱歉，大卫和托斯顿，但他们知道这是错误的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But yeah.
但是是的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
That's interesting.
这很有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
It was actively suppressed-
却被积极镇压——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
That's interesting
这很有趣
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because of the competitive nature of prizes and discoveries at that time.
因为当时奖项和发现的竞争性质。
And a guy named Mike Merzenich and his student, Greg Recanzone, were showing that adult plasticity exists, and only now is this really starting to emerge as a theme.
一个名叫迈克·梅泽尼奇 (Mike Merzenich) 的人和他的学生格雷格·雷坎佐 (Greg Recanzone) 正在证明成人可塑性的存在，直到现在这才真正开始成为一个主题。
Just crazy.
太疯狂了。
There were so many reasons, and the textbook said it, we were all told it, and it changed our behavior.
原因有很多，教科书上说了，我们都被告知了，它改变了我们的行为。
Now we know this to be completely false.
现在我们知道这是完全错误的。
There's plasticity throughout the lifespan.
整个生命周期都具有可塑性。
There's limits to it here and there, but it's just far and away a different story.
它到处都有局限性，但情况却截然不同。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
So why would that be the only time that ever happened?
那么为什么这是唯一一次发生的情况呢？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right, exactly.
对，完全正确。
But the field was run by a very small cabal of people at that time.
但当时这个领域是由一小群人经营的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
All fields are run by a very small cabal of people who have an investment in things being the way they are now-
所有领域都由一小群人经营，他们对事物进行投资，就像现在这样——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
...
...
because they're in charge.
因为他们负责。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
And one of the great things about getting older is that, well, fortunately, everyone eventually ages.
变老的一大好处是，幸运的是，每个人最终都会变老。
And I hope that...
我希望...
David, unfortunately, passed away.
不幸的是，大卫去世了。
He was lovely.
他很可爱。
Torsten's lovely.
托斯顿很可爱。
He's still alive.
他还活着。
And they would say, I think Torsten would say, "Yeah, we should've been a little more open or kind in allowing these other ideas." But I think that-
他们会说，我想托斯顿会说，“是的，我们应该更开放或更友善地允许这些其他想法。”但我认为——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
But just think about all the years that were wasted with this misunderstanding.
但想想那些因为这个误会而浪费掉的岁月。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
And it went beyond that, and there were BBC specials that helped propagate this.
不仅如此，还有 BBC 的特别节目帮助宣传了这一点。
And one of the goals of the podcast has been to try and shine light on ideas that at first seem crazy.
该播客的目标之一是尝试阐明乍一看似乎很疯狂的想法。
I know you and I are both semi-obsessed with the health benefits of light.
我知道你和我都对光的健康益处半着迷。
And you hear about this stuff like negative ion therapy.
你听说过负离子疗法之类的东西。
It sounds crazy, right?
听起来很疯狂，对吧？
Sounds like something you would only hear about at Esalen or in Big Sur.
听起来像是只有在伊莎伦或大苏尔才会听到的事情。
Turns out negative ionization therapy for sleep and mood is based on really amazing work out of Columbia by a guy named Michael Terman.
事实证明，针对睡眠和情绪的负电离疗法是基于哥伦比亚大学一位名叫迈克尔·特曼 (Michael Terman) 的令人惊叹的研究成果。
The Nobel Prize, I think it was in 1916, was given for phototherapy for the treatment of lupus.
我记得那是 1916 年的诺贝尔奖，颁发给治疗狼疮的光疗。
This idea that certain wavelengths of light can help treat medical conditions is not a new idea.
某些波长的光可以帮助治疗疾病的想法并不是一个新想法。
But somehow we see a red light, we're not used to seeing red lights except in sunsets and on stoplights, and somehow it bothers people, or it makes them feel like-
但不知怎的，我们看到了红灯，我们不习惯看到红灯，除了在日落和红绿灯时，不知怎的，它困扰着人们，或者让他们感觉——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Well, it undermines a business model that doesn't take red light into consideration.
嗯，它破坏了不考虑红灯的商业模式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Until it does, and then it's co-opted there.
直到它出现为止，然后它就在那里被增选。
And the place, what I look to is acupuncture.
我所关注的地方是针灸。
For a lot of years, people said, "Well, acupuncture, this is no mechanism." There's a lab at Harvard, a guy named Qiufu Ma, who I know reasonably well, whose laboratory is dedicated to trying to figure out the biological mechanisms of acupuncture.
多年来，人们说：“嗯，针灸，这不是机制。”哈佛大学有一个实验室，一个叫马秋福的人，我对他很了解，他的实验室致力于弄清楚针灸的生物学机制。
And they are discovering what everyone has known for thousands of years, which is that incredible effects on anti-inflammation, the gut microbiome .
他们正在发现数千年来每个人都知道的东西，那就是对抗炎和肠道微生物组的令人难以置信的作用。
So-
所以——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I have a friend who was having a terrible back problem, and I suggested that he see an acupuncturist.
我有一个朋友有严重的背部问题，我建议他去看针灸师。
And he went to the acupuncturist that I suggested, and his back problem completely healed almost instantaneously.
他去看了我建议的针灸师，他的背部问题几乎立刻就完全痊愈了。
And I asked him, "Have you been keeping up?" Because he had another flare-up.
我问他：“你一直在跟上吗？”因为他又发脾气了。
He's like, "No, I can't go back there because acupuncture doesn't work." I said, "Well, you saw it work for you." He's like, "Yeah, but there's no science."
他说：“不，我不能回去，因为针灸不起作用。”我说：“好吧，你发现它对你有用。”他说：“是的，但是没有科学依据。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now there's good science and published in premier journals.
现在有很好的科学成果并发表在顶级期刊上。
What's interesting is, this is a little bit of science editorial, but since we like to exchange information about health and things of that sort, the editorial staff of a journal dictates what gets published and what doesn't.
有趣的是，这是一篇科学社论，但由于我们喜欢交换有关健康和此类事物的信息，因此期刊的编辑人员决定发表哪些内容和不发表哪些内容。
And the premier journals have an outsized effect on what the media covers.
顶级期刊对媒体报道的内容有着巨大的影响。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so the beautiful thing is the journal staff now is of the age that they grew up hearing about acupuncture.
令人高兴的是，期刊工作人员现在已经到了听着针灸长大的年龄。
Hypnosis has a powerful clinical effect if it's done right.
如果操作得当，催眠会产生强大的临床效果。
Yoga nidra and similar practices.
瑜伽休息术和类似的练习。
And so the tides are changing, but I sometimes like to take a step back and think, what are we confronted with now that seems crazy, that in 10 years, the kids that will be the, because to me, they're kids, will be journal editors, and like, "Oh, yeah.
因此，潮流正在发生变化，但我有时喜欢退后一步思考，我们现在面临的是什么看起来很疯狂，十年后，孩子们将成为期刊编辑，因为对我来说，他们是孩子，就像，“哦，是的。
Absolutely." I'm making this up, but putting tuning forks against your head or something like that, like sound wave therapy.
绝对是的。”这是我编的，但是把音叉放在你的头上或者类似的东西，比如声波疗法。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think when one adopts a stance of we have to filter everything through the limitations of our biology, but also through the sociology of the way culture goes, it becomes a different story.
我认为，当我们采取一种立场时，我们必须通过生物学的局限性来过滤一切，而且还要通过文化发展方式的社会学来过滤一切，那就是一个不同的故事了。
How do you deal with that?
你如何处理这个问题？
Not just in terms of health, but in terms of thinking about anything.
不仅仅是在健康方面，而且在思考任何事情方面。
It sounds like you don't spend a whole lot of time thinking about what people are going to think is cool or not.
听起来你并没有花很多时间去思考人们会认为什么很酷或什么不酷。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
No, I can't.
不，我不能。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're a punk rocker at heart.
你本质上是一个朋克摇滚歌手。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes.
是的。
You still are.
你仍然是。
There, I got you.
在那里，我找到你了。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
I can't.
我不能。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I just know what I like and what I don't.
我只知道我喜欢什么，不喜欢什么。
I know what works for me and what doesn't.
我知道什么对我有用，什么对我没用。
I try things, and I'm constantly looking for new, better solutions to anything, and wherever they come from doesn't matter.
我不断尝试，不断寻找新的、更好的解决方案，无论它们来自哪里并不重要。
It could come from Stanford, or it could come from the guy talking to himself on the street.
它可能来自斯坦福大学，也可能来自那个在街上自言自语的人。
If it works, I'm good.
如果有效的话，我很好。
It doesn't really matter to me at all.
这对我来说根本不重要。
I don't hold any of it tightly.
我没有紧紧抓住它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, fortunately, there's now a division in the National Institutes of Health called Complementary and Alternative Health, and it's amazing.
幸运的是，美国国立卫生研究院现在有一个部门，称为补充和替代健康，这真是太棒了。
NCCIH is run by a woman who has published on, this is interesting, some of the anti-cancer effects of things like acupuncture.
NCCIH 是由一位女性经营的，她发表了一些关于针灸等抗癌作用的文章，这很有趣。
Not that acupuncture can cure all cancers, but real data.
并不是说针灸可以治愈所有癌症，而是真实的数据。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That I think for a lot of people, certainly the generation above us, they just are not interested.
我认为对于很多人来说，当然是我们上一代人，他们只是不感兴趣。
It sheds new light on the Andrew Weils, the Paul Stametses, the wild ones.
它为安德鲁·韦尔斯 (Andrew Weils)、保罗·斯塔梅茨 (Paul Stametses) 和野生动物提供了新的线索。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Ozone therapy or there's so many we can look at.
臭氧疗法或者有很多我们可以看的。
For a long time, nutrition was just thought of as something that doesn't matter what you eat.
长期以来，人们只是认为营养与吃什么无关。
It's what medicine you take and what...
关键是你吃什么药，吃什么...
The food is everything.
食物就是一切。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Food is a powerful variable.
食物是一个强大的变量。
In the landscape of online nutrition, it's one of the third rails for anyone like myself who's out there on social media.
在在线营养领域，对于像我这样在社交媒体上活动的人来说，这是第三条轨道之一。
You do a very good job of putting out posts on Twitter and Instagram, but each day you take it down, you put up a new one.
你在 Twitter 和 Instagram 上发布帖子方面做得非常好，但每天你都会删除它，然后发布新的帖子。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
And I only talk about creative ideas.
我只谈论创意。
I don't talk about anything specific related to anything other than maybe something like, "Don't believe what you hear."
除了“不要相信你所听到的”之类的内容之外，我不会谈论任何与任何具体相关的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Exactly.
确切地。
Well, in the landscape of nutrition, sometimes I now place it through the filter of professional wrestling.
好吧，在营养领域，有时我现在将其置于职业摔跤的过滤器中。
You've got your- Your vegans and your omnivores and your Carnivore MD, and you've got Liver King, and you've got everything in between, right?
你有你的——你的素食主义者、你的杂食动物和你的肉食动物医学博士，你还有肝王，你还有介于两者之间的一切，对吧？
So you could translate that to any number of different areas.
所以你可以将其转化为任意数量的不同领域。
Fashion probably has its people, I'm just not aware of who they are.
时尚界大概也有它的人，只是我不知道他们是谁。
Music has theirs, and sports has theirs, and science has theirs.
音乐有他们的，体育有他们的，科学也有他们的。
Characters.
人物。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So are we all just pro wrestling like characters in these different domains, and we're taking ourselves and each other way too seriously?
那么，我们是否都只是职业摔跤，就像这些不同领域的角色一样，我们对自己和彼此都过于认真了？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
We don't know anything.
我们什么都不知道。
If someone has an idea and it sounds interesting to you, try it, and if it doesn't work, it's okay, and try something else.
如果有人有一个想法并且你听起来很有趣，请尝试一下，如果不起作用，也没关系，然后尝试其他方法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're an empiricist.
你是一个经验主义者。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Whatever works.
不管怎样有效。
And if something seems interesting to you and you're excited by it, why not try it?
如果某件事对您来说很有趣并且您对此感到兴奋，为什么不尝试一下呢？
I try very fringy things.
我尝试一些非常边缘化的东西。
In some ways, the more unrealistic it seems, the more interesting it is to me, because I feel like that's getting closer to something that somebody doesn't want me to know.
在某些方面，它看起来越不现实，对我来说就越有趣，因为我觉得这越来越接近某人不想让我知道的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But you're not a big drug guy, like the big psychedelic craze that's happening now and that happened some years back.
但你不是一个大毒贩，就像现在和几年前发生的迷幻热潮一样。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I'm not against it, it just has never been something that I've done.
我并不反对，只是我从来没有做过这样的事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
It's an interesting area that's definitely making headway inside of standard academic science and medicine now.
这是一个有趣的领域，现在在标准学术科学和医学领域肯定正在取得进展。
So the-
所以——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I'm interested in non-pharmacological approaches to things, whatever they are.
我对非药物治疗方法感兴趣，无论它们是什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I'm a big believer also that behavioral dos and don'ts first, are that they're the most fun to explore because, in general, unless it's something like jumping between buildings doing parkour or something, most of the time you're not going to injure or harm yourself.
好吧，我也坚信行为上的该做和不该做的事情首先是它们是探索起来最有趣的，因为一般来说，除非是在建筑物之间跳跃做跑酷之类的事情，否则大多数时候你不会受伤或伤害自己。
There's more room for iteration than there is with a pill or a potion.
与药丸或药水相比，迭代的空间更大。
Although, certainly pharmacology has its place.
尽管如此，药理学确实有其一席之地。
So you've had creative works, certainly within the realm of music, also comedy and producing film and other things.
所以你有创造性的作品，当然是在音乐领域，还有喜剧和电影制作以及其他领域。
For somebody out there of whatever age, that maybe they're creating, maybe they know they have this creative antennae, the source is outside.
对于任何年龄的人来说，也许他们正在创造，也许他们知道自己有这种创造性的触角，来源就在外面。
What was it that Strummer said?
斯特鲁默说了什么？
I actually wrote this on the wall of my laboratory, "No input, no output."
我实际上在实验室的墙上写下了这句话：“没有输入，就没有输出。”
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's Strummer's law.
这就是斯特鲁默定律。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's written in my laboratory.
这是在我的实验室写的。
The people in my lab were so like, "What's going on here?" I think one guy knew what that was.
我实验室里的人都在问，“这里发生了什么事？”我想有一个人知道那是什么。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
That's great.
那太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it was a picture of him and picture of my bulldog and no input, no output.
但这是他的照片和我的斗牛犬的照片，没有输入，没有输出。
I don't think I can just stay in a room with four walls and a ceiling and nothing else and create.
我不认为我可以只呆在一个有四堵墙和一个天花板而没有其他东西的房间里进行创作。
I know that there's a certain number of things in here, but I do think accessing the world is important.
我知道这里有很多东西，但我确实认为接触世界很重要。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
And the world is giving us clues all the time if we're paying attention.
如果我们留心的话，世界一直在给我们线索。
That's another part of it.
这是它的另一部分。
If you're paying attention, the thing that you are looking for is being either whispered or screamed at you in the outside world if you're paying attention.
如果你注意的话，你正在寻找的东西就是如果你注意的话，外面的世界有人对你窃窃私语或尖叫。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, and I forget the exact title of the chapter, but there's a chapter about staying open to clues or being on the lookout for clues.
好吧，我忘记了这一章的确切标题，但有一章是关于对线索保持开放或寻找线索的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now I feel tempted to look for the exact title of that chapter, but-
现在我很想找到那一章的确切标题，但是——
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
It's probably "Look for Clues," isn't it?
这可能是“寻找线索”，不是吗？
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it was like, "Look for Clues." It sounds right, and since you wrote it, I'm guessing that's right.
就像“寻找线索”。听起来是对的，既然你写了它，我猜那是对的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Well, it's something like that.
嗯，是这样的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So do you think there are clues in everywhere?
那么你认为处处都有线索吗？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
I think there are clues everywhere.
我认为到处都有线索。
If we pay attention, we'll hear a phrase, it'll trigger a thought, we'll see something unexpected.
如果我们注意，我们会听到一个短语，它会引发一个想法，我们会看到一些意想不到的东西。
If someone recommends something to you, maybe it's a coincidence.
如果有人向你推荐某样东西，也许只是巧合。
If three people recommend the same thing to you, maybe it's not.
如果三个人向你推荐同样的东西，也许就不是。
Who knows?
谁知道？
I do believe the universe is on the side of creativity, and the universe is supporting things to happen, and they could happen through you, or they could happen through someone else.
我确实相信宇宙站在创造力一边，宇宙正在支持事情的发生，它们可以通过你发生，也可以通过其他人发生。
So if you're paying attention, maybe it'll happen through you.
所以如果你注意的话，也许它会通过你发生。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We had a guest on the podcast named Justin Sonnenburg, he's an expert in the gut microbiome, and he applied something that, without knowing, he applied the opposite principle, the opposite is true principle.
我们的播客中有一位名叫贾斯汀·索南伯格（Justin Sonnenburg）的嘉宾，他是肠道微生物组方面的专家，他应用了一些东西，在不知情的情况下，他应用了相反的原理，相反的是真正的原理。
We were talking about these trillions of gut microbiota that clearly are doing amazing things to create neurotransmitters and govern our brain, and even decision-making, how much sugar is in our system, driving appetite, et cetera.
我们谈论的是数万亿的肠道微生物群，它们显然正在做出惊人的事情来创造神经递质并控制我们的大脑，甚至决策，我们的系统中有多少糖，驱动食欲等等。
And he said, "We think of them as cargo, but maybe we're just vehicles and they're in charge."
他说，“我们认为它们是货物，但也许我们只是车辆，而它们负责。”
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That all of our interactions, like every time we shake hands or touch our eyes, we're exchanging gut microbiota.
我们所有的互动，比如每次握手或触摸眼睛，我们都在交换肠道微生物群。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we think of intelligence as thinking and intelligence.
我们认为智力就是思考和智慧。
And he's a microbiologist, and in all seriousness, he said, "Maybe we're the ones being manipulated.
他是一名微生物学家，他严肃地说：“也许我们就是被操纵的人。
We're the house cats." And we think here we are, we're falling in love and kissing and shaking hands and washing hands and doing all sorts of things to isolate or connect with one another, and maybe the gut microbiota are really trying to optimize their survival.
我们是家猫。”我们认为，我们正在坠入爱河，亲吻，握手，洗手，做各种各样的事情来隔离或相互联系，也许肠道微生物群真的在努力优化它们的生存。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
That's what Laird Hamilton said that one point in the sauna, that when you're in the sauna and it's really hot, the feeling that you have of wanting to get out could be the bad critters in your body that can't handle it-
这就是莱尔德·汉密尔顿（Laird Hamilton）所说的，在桑拿房中的一点，当你在桑拿房里，而且天气真的很热时，你想要出去的感觉可能是你体内的坏生物无法承受的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like let's get out of here
就像我们离开这里一样
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
...
...
are trying to convince you from the inside to get out.
试图从内部说服你离开。
Maybe that's where that feeling of being compelled to get out comes from.
也许这就是那种被迫离开的感觉的来源。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So Elon getting us all to Mars might be a bit of maybe they just want to get to Mars And so there are-
所以埃隆带我们所有人去火星可能有点像他们只是想去火星所以有-
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Maybe
也许
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as I'm starting to feel like I'm channeling Lex Fridman here for a moment.
因为我开始觉得我正在在这里引导莱克斯·弗里德曼（Lex Fridman）。
No, I think this considering the opposite is really key.
不，我认为考虑到相反的情况确实很关键。
And while it might sound mystical to people or a little bit like we're just playing with ideas, that's exactly what you do in science.
虽然这对人们来说可能听起来很神秘，或者有点像我们只是在玩弄想法，但这正是你在科学领域所做的事情。
Someone walks in with a result and says, "I found this.
有人带着结果走进来说：“我找到了这个。
This is true." And you say, "But what if it's all something else?" A good example might be, here I'm pulling from podcast episodes that we've had, but Alia Crum is this amazing psychologist who works on belief effects.
这是真的。”你会说：“但是如果是别的事情呢？”一个很好的例子可能是，这里我摘自我们已经播放过的播客剧集，但阿莉亚·克拉姆是一位出色的心理学家，致力于研究信念效应。
Your knowledge strongly shapes the physiological outcome.
您的知识强烈影响生理结果。
And she had this amazing graduate thesis where she said, "What if all of exercise is placebo?" All of it.
她有一篇令人惊叹的研究生论文，其中她说：“如果所有的运动都是安慰剂怎么办？”所有这一切。
Yeah, it burns some calories and does some things.
是的，它会燃烧一些卡路里并做一些事情。
Turns out this isn't the case.
事实证明事实并非如此。
But it turns out a lot of the effects of exercise, positive effects, lowering blood pressure, relieving stress, positive, are placebo.
但事实证明，运动的很多效果，积极的效果，降低血压，缓解压力，积极的效果，都是安慰剂。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But nobody thinks of it like that because we're so attached to calories burned, et cetera.
但没有人这么认为，因为我们太执着于燃烧的卡路里等等。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I think that's a big point, that the belief part of it is a huge part of the conversation about everything.
我认为这是很重要的一点，其中的信念部分是关于一切事物的对话的重要组成部分。
What we believe has power.
我们相信的东西就有力量。
If we believe we could make something great, the chances of us making something great are better than if we don't believe we can.
如果我们相信我们能够做出伟大的事情，那么我们做出伟大事情的机会就会比我们不相信自己能做到的时候更好。
So I would say any ability to harness your belief on your behalf is a really healthy thing to do.
所以我想说，任何能够代表你利用你的信念的能力都是一件非常健康的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And one thing that you make very clear is that while our own abilities may come into question from time to time, you absolutely believe that the elements from which to create are out there.
您非常清楚地表明的一件事是，虽然我们自己的能力可能会不时受到质疑，但您绝对相信创造的元素就在那里。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
All the elements are here.
所有的元素都在这里。
Everything is here.
一切都在这里。
We get to pick and choose.
我们可以挑选。
The conveyor belt's going by with the little gifts.
传送带带着小礼物经过。
First, we have to notice there's a conveyor belt.
首先，我们必须注意到有一条传送带。
Then we notice the gifts, and then that's the starting point.
然后我们注意到礼物，然后这就是起点。
And then we may even feel empowered enough to grab one of the gifts and open it up and see what's inside.
然后我们甚至可能会感到有足够的力量去拿起其中一份礼物并打开它，看看里面有什么。
And then maybe that's the start of something really beautiful that we wouldn't have done.
也许这就是我们不会做的真正美丽的事情的开始。
Everything that I make or have made has always been based on something that I see or hear that allows me to see something that I didn't see before.
我所做的或已经做过的一切总是基于我看到或听到的东西，这些东西让我看到了我以前没有看到的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I was going to ask you whether or not it's important to be happy in order to create, but certainly a lot of people that were unhappy were still able to create.
所以我想问你快乐对于创造是否重要，但肯定很多不快乐的人仍然能够创造。
But the more I listen to you, it seems that it's really about an ability to pay attention.
但我听得越多，似乎这真的是一种专注的能力。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So if I'm unhappy or if I'm happy may not be as relevant as whether or not I'm able to stay undistracted.
因此，我是否不快乐或者我是否快乐可能并不像我是否能够保持不分心那么重要。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yes.
是的。
I would say being able to stay present in the work is probably the most important part of it.
我想说，能够专注于工作可能是其中最重要的部分。
And how you feel is less of an issue unless how you feel gets in the way of you feeling how the work makes you feel.
除非你的感受妨碍了你感受工作给你带来的感受，否则你的感受就不那么重要了。
Do you know what I'm saying?
你知道我在说什么吗？
If you're in a lot of pain and you're looking at a piece of art, it may be hard to know how that art makes you feel because the big signal in your body is the physical pain.
如果你正承受着很大的痛苦，并且正在观看一件艺术品，那么你可能很难知道这件艺术品让你有什么感觉，因为你体内的重要信号就是身体上的疼痛。
I'm sure there are some people who can do that, too, who can even through the physical pain can feel it.
我确信有些人也能做到这一点，他们甚至可以通过身体上的疼痛来感受它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, there's this idea of transmutation, of taking one emotion and contorting it and co-opting it into another action in an adaptive way.
是的，有一种转变的想法，即采取一种情绪并扭曲它，并以适应性的方式将其纳入另一种行动。
But this idea of distraction being a problem, this really resonates.
但这种分心是一个问题的想法确实引起了共鸣。
I think when I think of times of great productivity is when I was able to be undistracted.
我认为，当我想到生产力高的时候，就是我能够不分心的时候。
I could also see how success can be its own distraction.
我还发现成功本身也会让人分心。
This is often discussed in the context of fighting sports, where someone starts making a lot of money and pretty soon their focus becomes all the things they can access with their success, as opposed to the thing that got them there in the first place.
这通常是在格斗运动的背景下讨论的，在格斗运动中，有人开始赚很多钱，很快他们的注意力就变成了他们能够获得成功的所有东西，而不是最初让他们到达那里的东西。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Keeping an underdog mentality.
保持弱者心态。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Before we conclude, I do want to ask you about one other aspect of process, which is meditation.
在我们结束之前，我确实想问你有关过程的另一方面，那就是冥想。
Meditation is interesting to me because when we close our eyes, as most meditations are done, and we focus on our brain, our brain has no sensation.
冥想对我来说很有趣，因为当我们闭上眼睛时，就像大多数冥想一样，我们专注于我们的大脑，我们的大脑没有任何感觉。
Like if we-
就像如果我们-
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I wouldn't say we focus on our brain.
我不会说我们专注于我们的大脑。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, or we focus on something other than our normal experience.
哦，或者我们关注的是我们正常经历之外的事情。
How would you define meditation?
你如何定义冥想？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Well, there are different types of meditation.
嗯，冥想有不同类型。
Usually, either way, I would say there's no form of meditation where we're focused on our brain.
通常，无论哪种方式，我都会说没有任何形式的冥想可以让我们专注于我们的大脑。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Good.
很好。
I'm glad we disagree.
我很高兴我们不同意。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
No, I would say here are the things that happen.
不，我想说的是这里发生的事情。
We either are engaging in a mantra, which would be a version of almost like creating a trance for ourselves, not unlike listening to something when we go to sleep that would distract our conscious mind from participating.
我们要么在念诵咒语，这几乎就像为自己创造一种恍惚状态，就像我们入睡时听一些会分散我们意识的注意力而无法参与的事情一样。
We would be overriding the talking mind with just a sound that we're generating or a word or a phrase, series of phrases.
我们仅仅用我们发出的一个声音、一个单词、一个短语、一系列短语就可以凌驾于说话的头脑之上。
Like meta meditation is a loving kindness meditation with phrases.
就像元冥想一样，它是一种带有短语的慈爱冥想。
Could be that.
可能是这样。
Or it could be focused on the breath, but the purpose of being focused on the breath is to not hear the self-talk that we normally have.
或者它可以专注于呼吸，但专注于呼吸的目的是为了听不到我们通常的自言自语。
It's a single-pointed focus exercise in those that I described.
这是我所描述的单点焦点练习。
The other version is an awareness meditation, where you're closing your eyes And you're being with whatever is and noticing.
另一个版本是意识冥想，你闭上眼睛，与任何事物相处并注意。
So if we were to do it now, and you could do it eyes open or eyes closed with an awareness practice, but the first thing that I would do is I would feel a little ringing in my ears.
因此，如果我们现在就这样做，你可以睁着眼睛或闭上眼睛进行意识练习，但我要做的第一件事是我会感觉耳朵里有点嗡嗡作响。
It might be from the electronic equipment around us, and I don't mean that I hear the sound.
它可能来自我们周围的电子设备，我并不是说我听到了声音。
It's like a vibration.
就像振动一样。
I hear cars passing in the distance.
我听到远处有汽车驶过。
See what else comes up.
看看还会发生什么。
I can feel a feeling in my chest.
我能感觉到胸口有一种感觉。
I can feel this part of my face, not sure why.
我能感觉到我脸的这一部分，不知道为什么。
Feels like it's related to my jaw.
感觉和我的下巴有关系。
More car sounds.
更多汽车声音。
Am aware of a little feeling of warmth.
我意识到有一点温暖的感觉。
So now I would say the room feels a bit warm.
所以现在我想说房间感觉有点温暖。
I wasn't aware of that before when I wasn't just being with what's happening.
当我不只是关注正在发生的事情时，我以前并没有意识到这一点。
Feel a little itch on my left shoulder.
感觉左肩有点痒。
So that would be an awareness practice, which is another kind of meditation where you're just paying attention to what's going on.
所以这将是一种意识练习，这是另一种冥想，你只需关注正在发生的事情。
There's no story, there's no this means this, none of those things.
没有故事，没有这个意思，没有那些东西。
Just like an inventory almost of everything that comes up when it comes up, and you do that for a period of time.
就像几乎所有出现的东西的清单一样，你会这样做一段时间。
But in all of those cases, in the example of doing the awareness meditation or doing a mantra meditation or focusing on the breath, in none of them am I thinking, and none of them am I concentrating on-- I'm being aware of sense perceptions in the awareness one or in the other meditations, I'm doing a practice so that I'm not aware of thinking about anything else.
但在所有这些情况下，在进行觉知冥想或进行咒语冥想或专注于呼吸的例子中，我没有在思考，也没有在其中集中注意力——我在觉知冥想或其他冥想中意识到感官知觉，我正在做一种练习，这样我就不会意识到在思考其他任何事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When did you start meditating, and how often do you meditate now?
您什么时候开始冥想的？现在冥想的频率是多少？
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
I learned when I was 14, and I started with TM, and that's probably the meditation that I've done the most in my life, and I come back to.
我在 14 岁的时候就开始学习 TM，这可能是我一生中进行次数最多的冥想，并且我会再次进行冥想。
Although I tried many different kinds, and also different physical forms of meditation, Tai Chi, things like that.
尽管我尝试了许多不同种类、不同身体形式的冥想、太极拳之类的东西。
I meditated for five or six years, and then I stopped when I went to school to university, and then I started again several years later.
我打坐了五六年，上大学就停了，几年后又开始打坐。
And when I started again, I realized how profound it was in me that I had done it when I did it.
当我再次开始时，我意识到当我这样做的时候，我所做的事情对我来说是多么深刻。
So I usually have some sort of a practice.
所以我通常会有某种练习。
In some ways, the beach walks could be a form of meditation.
在某些方面，海滩散步可能是一种冥想形式。
But for me, typically, I would wake up, it'd be the first thing I would do during that sort of in-between time, maybe go out in the sun, close my eyes, and meditate before starting my day.
但对我来说，通常情况下，我会醒来，这是我在中间时间做的第一件事，也许在开始新的一天之前出去晒太阳，闭上眼睛，冥想。
If I'm doing it twice a day, the second time would probably be right before dinner, if I'm doing it on a regular schedule.
如果我每天做两次，如果我有规律地做的话，第二次可能是在晚餐前。
Then if I find myself on an airplane, I might meditate for an hour or I can remember one time meditating the entire flight from New York to LA, just was a great opportunity to do a deep dive.
然后，如果我发现自己在飞机上，我可能会冥想一个小时，或者我记得有一次在从纽约到洛杉矶的整个航班上冥想，这是一个进行深入研究的好机会。
And time passes, you lose track of time.
随着时间的流逝，你忘记了时间。
You don't even know.
你甚至不知道。
It's like going to sleep and waking up.
这就像睡觉和醒来一样。
You don't feel like that was eight hours.
你不会觉得那是八个小时。
It's just time stops.
只是时间停止了。
Not always, but when it does, it's a great feeling.
并不总是如此，但当它发生时，这是一种很棒的感觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
You've sent me some meditations, including the one that you did on that transatlantic or transcontinental flight, and I've been trying to do longer and longer meditations, but I've always meditated a little bit, but your meditation practice is one that I'm starting to adopt.
你给我发了一些冥想，包括你在跨大西洋或跨大陆航班上做的冥想，我一直在尝试做越来越长的冥想，但我总是冥想一点，但我开始采用你的冥想练习。
If maybe we could convince you to give us suggestions of one or two, and we can link out to them for listeners.
如果我们可以说服您给我们一两个建议，我们可以将它们链接给听众。
I'm sure they'd appreciate that.
我确信他们会很感激。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
And there's also meditation-like practices to do that involve-- There's something called the Surgical Series from the Monroe Institute, which I used when I had a surgery.
还有类似冥想的练习可以做到这一点——门罗研究所有一种叫做“外科系列”的东西，我在做手术时用过它。
You listen to this recording, and it both allows your body to heal much faster and removes some of the trauma that goes on when getting cut open.
你听了这段录音，它既可以让你的身体更快地愈合，又可以消除一些被切开时所造成的创伤。
It's traumatic.
这很痛苦。
But just through listening to certain things, you can have a really powerful effect, heal much faster.
但仅仅通过聆听某些东西，你就可以产生非常强大的效果，治愈得更快。
I remember I was about to be put under for a surgery, and my eyes were closed, and I wasn't communicating with anyone there because I was going inside, and my wife was with me, and they came in, and they said, "Oh, so they already gave Rick the sedative because he's ready to wheel in." She's like, "I didn't give him anything." He's like, "But look at his numbers." Like, yeah.
我记得我正要接受手术，我的眼睛是闭着的，我没有与那里的任何人交流，因为我要进去，我的妻子和我在一起，他们进来了，他们说，“哦，所以他们已经给里克注射了镇静剂，因为他准备好推入了。”她说：“我什么也没给他。”他说，“但是看看他的数据。”就像，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love it.
我喜欢它。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
It's an amazingly powerful practice.
这是一个非常强大的练习。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I like it because anyone can cultivate.
我喜欢它，因为任何人都可以修炼。
There's no-
没有-
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
And there's no good or bad version.
而且版本没有好坏之分。
It really is just if you learn a technique and show up and do it, it works.
确实，只要你学习了一项技术并付诸实践，它就会起作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I love that you're so willing to share what you do and your process, and listen, I just want to say thank you for a number of things.
好吧，我喜欢你如此愿意分享你所做的事情和你的过程，并且倾听，我只想对你说很多事情的感谢。
I want to thank you for The music you've created and that you are to create, because we want to be still ongoing.
我要感谢你创作的音乐以及你将要创作的音乐，因为我们希望继续下去。
Certainly for your time today in sharing your thought process and a bit of what goes into this incredible creative process.
当然，今天您也可以分享您的思考过程以及这个令人难以置信的创意过程的一些内容。
And I want to thank you for writing the book.
我要感谢你写了这本书。
I don't talk about or feature many books on the podcast.
我不会在播客上谈论或介绍很多书籍。
It's just not something we typically do.
这不是我们通常做的事情。
But I've seen a little bit of the evolution of it, and then I've seen it now and read through it in its final form twice, as I mentioned.
但正如我提到的，我已经看到了它的一些演变，然后我现在已经看到它并以最终形式阅读了两次。
I'm going to continue to read through it again.
我要继续再读一遍。
It is one of those books where it is so filled with gems, like every chapter.
这是一本充满宝石的书，就像每一章一样。
Like I could take notes on this and take notes on this, and it's assembled in a very digestible way that allows people to extract the meaningful parts in every chapter, and there's so many, in a way that's very straightforward.
就像我可以对此做笔记并对此做笔记，它以一种非常易于理解的方式组装，允许人们提取每一章中有意义的部分，而且有很多，以一种非常简单的方式。
So, I love the book, so thank you for doing it.
所以，我喜欢这本书，所以谢谢你的帮助。
Because you certainly didn't have to write a book, but I'm so happy that you did, and I know that I've already benefited, and I know so many people are going to benefit.
因为你当然不必写一本书，但我很高兴你这么做了，而且我知道我已经受益了，而且我知道很多人都会受益。
It's an amazing book, and I couldn't help but put my neuroscience lens on it.
这是一本很棒的书，我忍不住把我的神经科学镜头放在上面。
But I also, about halfway through, I learned to discard my preexisting lens a bit and start to see things through what I think is a different perspective.
但我也，大约在一半的时候，我学会了放弃我以前存在的视角，并开始通过我认为不同的视角来看待事物。
So I just want to thank you for being such an incredible portal and also for being an amazing friend.
所以我只想感谢您成为如此令人难以置信的门户网站，也感谢您成为一位了不起的朋友。
Rick Rubin:
里克·鲁宾：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
I love you.
我爱你。
I'm so happy to be here with you, and anytime I get to see you, it's a good day.
我很高兴能和你在一起，无论何时见到你，都是美好的一天。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Likewise.
同样。
Thank you for joining me today for my discussion with Rick Rubin, all about creativity and the creative process.
感谢您今天加入我与 Rick Rubin 的讨论，讨论创意和创意过程。
Please also be sure to check out his new book, "The Creative Act: A Way of Being" by Rick Rubin.
另请务必阅读他的新书，《创意行为：一种存在方式》，作者：里克·鲁宾 (Rick Rubin)。
As I mentioned earlier, it's an incredible book and such a wealth of knowledge for you creative types out there, for those of you that seek to be more creative or to understand the creative process generally.
正如我之前提到的，这是一本令人难以置信的书，对于那些富有创造力的人来说，对于那些寻求更具创造力或总体上了解创作过程的人来说，它提供了如此丰富的知识。
And as I mentioned at the beginning of today's episode, Rick has very generously offered to answer your questions about creativity.
正如我在今天节目开头提到的，里克非常慷慨地回答了你们关于创造力的问题。
So if you have questions for Rick Rubin about creativity or the creative process, or anything else for that matter, please put those in the comments section on YouTube by writing in capital letters, "QUESTION FOR RICK RUBIN", and then please put the question there.
因此，如果您对 Rick Rubin 有关于创造力或创作过程的问题，或任何其他相关问题，请在 YouTube 的评论部分中用大写字母写下“RICK Rubin 的问题”，然后将问题放在那里。
That will make it easier for me to find those questions.
这将使我更容易找到这些问题。
I will record the conversation where I ask Rick those questions, and of course, we will post his answers to those questions on our Huberman Lab Clips channel.
我将记录我向 Rick 提出这些问题的对话，当然，我们将在我们的 Huberman Lab Clips 频道上发布他对这些问题的回答。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on Spotify and Apple.
此外，请订阅 Spotify 和 Apple 上的播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。
If you have questions for us or comments or topics that you'd like me to cover or guests that you'd like me to include on the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我们有疑问，或者您希望我报道或邀请我在 Huberman Lab 播客中加入嘉宾，请将这些内容放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
Not so much during today's episode, but on many episodes of the Huberman Lab podcast, we discuss supplements.
在今天的节目中，我们讨论的不是很多，而是在 Huberman Lab 播客的许多节目中，我们讨论了补充剂。
While supplements aren't necessary for everybody, many people derive tremendous benefit from them, for things like enhancing the depth and quality of sleep, for enhancing focus, and for hormone support, and many other aspects of mental health, physical health, and performance.
虽然补充剂并不是每个人都需要的，但许多人从中获得了巨大的益处，例如增强睡眠深度和质量、增强注意力、激素支持以及心理健康、身体健康和表现的许多其他方面。
The Huberman Lab podcast is proud to announce that we are now partnered with Momentous Supplements, because Momentous Supplements are of the very highest quality, they ship internationally, and they have single-ingredient formulations, which turns out to be important if you're going to develop the most cost-effective and biologically effective supplementation regimen.
Huberman Lab 播客很自豪地宣布，我们现在与 Momentous Supplements 合作，因为 Momentous Supplements 具有最高的质量，它们在全球范围内发货，并且具有单一成分配方，如果您要开发最具成本效益和生物有效的补充方案，这一点非常重要。
If you'd like to access the supplements discussed on the Huberman Lab podcast, you can go to livemomentous, spelled O-U-S, so livemomentous.com/huberman.
如果您想访问 Huberman Lab 播客上讨论的补充内容，您可以访问 livemomentous，拼写为 O-U-S，即 livemomentous.com/huberman。
If you're not already following us on social media, we are hubermanlab on Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn, and Facebook.
如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我们，我们在 Instagram、Twitter、LinkedIn 和 Facebook 上是 hubermanlab。
In all of those places, I talk about science and science-related tools, some of which overlap with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content of the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些地方，我谈论了科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容不同。
Again, it's hubermanlab on all social media handles, all platforms: Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
同样，它是所有社交媒体手柄、所有平台上的 hubermanlab：Instagram、Twitter、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。
If you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, that's a monthly newsletter.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络通讯，这是每月通讯。
It's completely zero cost and includes summaries of podcast episodes as well as toolkits for things like enhancing your sleep, enhancing your focus and ability to learn, hormone support, fitness, and on and on.
它完全是零成本，包括播客剧集摘要以及用于改善睡眠、增强注意力和学习能力、激素支持、健身等等的工具包。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu, click on the menu, and scroll down to Newsletter, provide your email, and you can start receiving our monthly Neural Network Newsletter.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，进入菜单，单击菜单，然后向下滚动到新闻通讯，提供您的电子邮件，您就可以开始接收我们每月的神经网络新闻通讯。
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Rick Rubin, all about creativity and the creative process.
感谢您参加今天与 Rick Rubin 的讨论，讨论创意和创意过程。
And as always, thank you for your interest in science.
一如既往，感谢您对科学的兴趣。