Restore Youthfulness & Vitality to the Aging Brain & Body | Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
For the first time, we could take an old brain, and we could give factors from a young organism and ask, "Is that going to change the age of the brain?" And that's indeed what it did.
这是我们第一次可以使用一个古老的大脑，并给出来自年轻有机体的因子，并问：“这会改变大脑的年龄吗？”而这也确实是它所做的。
So we saw that there are stem cells in the brain of these mice, that they got reactivated.
所以我们看到这些小鼠的大脑中有干细胞，它们被重新激活。
There was less inflammation, more activity that we can measure in the brain.
炎症减少了，我们可以在大脑中测量到更多的活动。
And then most importantly, we actually saw that their memory function improved.
最重要的是，我们实际上看到他们的记忆功能得到了改善。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray.
今天我的嘉宾是托尼·怀斯-科雷博士。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray is a professor of neurology at Stanford School of Medicine and an expert in identifying factors that can help prevent and reverse organ degeneration and aging.
托尼·怀斯-科雷 (Tony Wyss-Coray) 博士是斯坦福大学医学院的神经病学教授，也是识别有助于预防和逆转器官退化和衰老的因素的专家。
Today, we discuss the factors that are present in young blood, yes, you heard that right, and the factors that are present in blood after exercise that have been shown to rejuvenate the brain and other tissues in older individuals.
今天，我们讨论年轻人血液中存在的因素，是的，你没听错，以及运动后血液中存在的因素，这些因素已被证明可以使老年人的大脑和其他组织恢复活力。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray's lab has discovered several proteins that are present in high amounts when we are young and that circulate in the blood, and that diminish with age.
Tony Wyss-Coray 博士的实验室发现了几种蛋白质，这些蛋白质在我们年轻时大量存在，并在血液中循环，但随着年龄的增长而减少。
And if these are supplied to the aged body and brain, can reverse key features of aging, including improved cognition, tissue recovery from stress, damage, and more.
如果将这些物质提供给衰老的身体和大脑，就可以逆转衰老的关键特征，包括改善认知、组织从压力、损伤中恢复等等。
We also discuss how aging is nonlinear.
我们还讨论了衰老是如何非线性的。
It does not progress uniformly across the lifespan.
它在整个生命周期中的进展并不均匀。
And we discuss the fact that there are certain phases, such as puberty, your early 40s, and your early 60s, when aging is accelerated and then slows again.
我们讨论了这样一个事实，即在某些阶段，例如青春期、40 岁出头和 60 岁出头，衰老会加速，然后再次减慢。
We also discuss how different organs in your body age at different rates and how you can measure that.
我们还讨论了身体中不同器官如何以不同的速度老化，以及如何测量它。
Today's discussion is a very important one, because so often these days we hear about anti-aging and longevity.
今天的讨论非常重要，因为现在我们经常听到有关抗衰老和长寿的话题。
But today you're going to hear about the real science of organ rejuvenation.
但今天您将听到器官复兴的真正科学。
We also are going to talk about the role of sunlight, fasting, hormones, and the use of specific molecular approaches to improve your vitality and health.
我们还将讨论阳光、禁食、激素的作用，以及使用特定的分子方法来改善您的活力和健康。
We also, of course, discuss exercise and social interactions, but in the context of the specific molecules they release into your blood to promote and enhance health, and how you can leverage that information.
当然，我们也会讨论锻炼和社交互动，但会讨论它们释放到您的血液中以促进和增强健康的特定分子，以及如何利用这些信息。
Tony Wyss-Coray is a celebrated pioneer in the science of these topics because of the rigor he applies to the work.
托尼·怀斯-科雷 (Tony Wyss-Coray) 因其对工作的严谨态度而成为这些主题科学领域的著名先驱。
He's not just talking about some molecule that someday there'll be a drug or some activity that we already know promotes health.
他不仅仅是在谈论有一天会出现某种我们已经知道可以促进健康的药物或活动的分子。
He's an avid tool developer for measuring and reversing aging.
他是一位热衷于测量和逆转衰老的工具开发人员。
So today we discuss all of that, and you're sure to come away from the discussion with both tools to improve your immediate and long-term health, as well as a deeper understanding of the biology.
因此，今天我们讨论所有这些，您一定会在讨论结束后使用这两种工具来改善您的近期和长期健康状况，并对生物学有更深入的了解。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.
为了与这个主题保持一致，今天的节目确实有赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray.
现在我将与托尼·怀斯-科雷博士进行讨论。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray, welcome.
托尼·怀斯-科雷博士，欢迎光临。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great to see another Stanford colleague here.
很高兴在这里见到另一位斯坦福大学同事。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're a true pioneer.
你是一位真正的先驱。
Your work is the first work that I heard of where somebody did a serious experiment taking blood from a younger organism, putting it into an older organism, and observing very interesting things.
你的工作是我听说的第一个工作，其中有人做了一个严肃的实验，从一个年轻的有机体中取出血液，将其放入一个较老的有机体中，并观察非常有趣的事情。
If you would, could you tell us about that experiment and what, if anything, has been done in humans to examine whether young blood, such a loaded term, but young blood can be a rejuvenation factor for the more mature body or brain?
如果您愿意的话，您能否告诉我们有关该实验的信息，以及在人类身上做了什么（如果有的话）来检查年轻的血液，这样一个负载过重的术语，但年轻的血液是否可以成为更成熟的身体或大脑的复兴因素？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So we were actually not the first ones.
所以我们实际上不是第一批。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Ah, okay.
啊，好吧。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
But we collaborated with the person who in sort of more modern times used this model again.
但我们与在现代再次使用这种模型的人合作。
It's called parabiosis, where you have a surgical model where an old and a young mouse are paired, and their circulation allows for exchange of blood from the young to the old animal.
这被称为联体共生，在手术模型中，一只年老的老鼠和一只年轻的老鼠配对，它们的循环允许血液从年轻的动物交换到年老的动物。
And my colleague, who recruited me actually to Stanford, Tom Rando, used this model to study aging of stem cells in the muscle.
我的同事汤姆·兰多（Tom Rando）实际上将我招募到了斯坦福大学，他使用这个模型来研究肌肉中干细胞的衰老。
So he discovered that with old age, the muscle sort of deteriorates and doesn't regenerate.
所以他发现随着年龄的增长，肌肉会退化并且不会再生。
And when he used a mouse, an old mouse, and paired it with a young mouse, and now this young circulation infusing, if you will, the old muscle, he regenerated that muscle, and it looked almost like a young muscle.
当他使用一只老鼠，一只老老鼠，并将其与一只年轻老鼠配对时，如果你愿意的话，现在这种年轻的循环注入了老肌肉，他再生了那块肌肉，它看起来几乎就像一块年轻的肌肉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
And at the same time, he also observed effects in other tissues, including in the brain, and that's when we started to collaborate and explored what could the effects of young factors on the brain be.
与此同时，他还观察了其他组织（包括大脑）的影响，从那时起我们开始合作并探索年轻因素对大脑的影响。
And in part, we were also intrigued by that because we had separate studies in humans where we tried to find blood signatures of Alzheimer's disease.
在某种程度上，我们对此也很感兴趣，因为我们对人类进行了单独的研究，试图找到阿尔茨海默病的血液特征。
And what we noticed is that we could see proteins that were correlated or even predictive of Alzheimer's disease.
我们注意到，我们可以看到与阿尔茨海默病相关甚至可以预测的蛋白质。
But the most striking difference was between younger and older people.
但最显着的差异是年轻人和老年人之间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
So we saw that the concentration of their proteins was very different in young people and old people.
所以我们看到年轻人和老年人的蛋白质浓度有很大不同。
And when you see something like that in biology, you always ask, "Is this cause or effect?" So do the proteins in our body change because they respond to the aging of the brain, for example, or do they actually drive the aging of the brain?
当你在生物学中看到类似的东西时，你总是会问：“这是原因还是结果？”那么，我们体内的蛋白质发生变化是因为它们对大脑的衰老做出了反应，还是它们实际上推动了大脑的衰老？
And here, Tom had this model that allowed him to ask that question, or that allowed us together to ask that question.
在这里，汤姆有一个模型可以让他提出这个问题，或者让我们一起提出这个问题。
Because for the first time, we could take an old brain, and we could give factors from a young organism and ask, "Is that going to change the age of the brain?" And that's indeed what it did.
因为这是第一次，我们可以使用一个古老的大脑，并提供来自年轻有机体的因子，并问：“这会改变大脑的年龄吗？”而这也确实是它所做的。
So we saw that there are stem cells in the brain of these mice, that they got reactivated.
所以我们看到这些小鼠的大脑中有干细胞，它们被重新激活。
There was less inflammation, more activity that we can measure in the brain with electrical activity of neurons.
炎症更少，我们可以通过神经元电活动来测量大脑中的活动更多。
And then most importantly, we actually saw that their memory function improved.
最重要的是，我们实际上看到他们的记忆功能得到了改善。
And so to your question, is that relevant for humans?
那么对于你的问题，这与人类相关吗？
We actually try to translate that, and we can talk more about this, where the stage of that field is right now to see whether that can be translated.
我们实际上尝试翻译它，我们可以更多地谈论这个，该领域现在的阶段就是看看是否可以翻译它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I would love to hear more about that.
是的，我很想听到更多相关信息。
I realize in your description that most of us think about blood, of course, delivering oxygen and red blood cells, et cetera.
我在你的描述中意识到我们大多数人都会想到血液，当然，血液输送氧气和红细胞等等。
But of blood that's drawn as a good, not the only, but a good window into the health status, the age status of an organism, including us.
但抽取的血液是了解包括我们在内的有机体的健康状况和年龄状况的良好窗口，不是唯一的窗口，而是一个很好的窗口。
But what I'm hearing is that it's also delivering nutrients or proteins of some kind that can reverse some sort of clock, and we'll get into later whether or not-
但我听到的是，它还提供某种营养物质或蛋白质，可以逆转某种时钟，我们稍后会讨论是否-
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's an organ-specific clock or a body-wide clock.
它是一个特定器官的时钟或一个全身的时钟。
But I think blood-borne factors, generally, I think of as a readout, not as a medicine.
但我认为，一般来说，我认为血源性因素是一种读数，而不是一种药物。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But you're talking about blood-borne factors as medicine.
但你说的是血液传播因子作为药物。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I think that's really the fascinating aspect of this work that over the past few years, people started to look at, that many of these proteins and probably other molecules in the blood, they're not just reflecting the status of the body, if you will, but they're actively influencing how it works.
我认为这确实是这项工作令人着迷的方面，在过去的几年里，人们开始关注，许多这些蛋白质，可能还有血液中的其他分子，它们不仅反映了身体的状态，如果你愿意的话，而且它们正在积极影响身体的运作方式。
And the composition changes dramatically from young to old.
而且从年轻到年老，构图变化也很大。
We have this picture that I always like to show when I give a talk about our work, where we have several thousand individuals, and we measure 3,000 proteins in them.
当我谈论我们的工作时，我总是喜欢展示这张图片，我们有几千个人，我们测量了其中的 3,000 种蛋白质。
And then we use colors to show low levels or high levels of proteins, and you see this dramatic change from young people to old people in a way that you can pick one sample, and you can say, "This person must be about that old." And we can talk more about what people call clocks.
然后我们用颜色来显示低水平或高水平的蛋白质，你会看到从年轻人到老年人的这种巨大变化，你可以选择一个样本，你可以说，“这个人一定有那么老。”我们可以更多地讨论人们所说的时钟。
But to your question, yes, there are factors in the blood that clearly can change the function of cells and organs.
但对于你的问题，是的，血液中的某些因素显然可以改变细胞和器官的功能。
And what the field is trying to figure out is what are the key ones, which ones could we use to slow down aging or to keep the body healthy as long as you live.
该领域正在试图弄清楚哪些是关键因素，哪些是我们可以用来减缓衰老或在一生中保持身体健康的因素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what has been done in humans in terms of an equivalent or pseudo-equivalent experiment to the parabiosis experiment you described?
那么，在人类身上做了哪些与你所描述的联体共生实验等效或伪等效的实验呢？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
To try to translate that, we started a company, Alkahest, to see whether factors from the blood of individuals could influence, first of all, aging of a mouse brain.
为了尝试转化这一点，我们成立了一家名为 Alkahest 的公司，首先研究个体血液中的因素是否会影响小鼠大脑的衰老。
So we took blood from young people or old people and injected it into mouse brains, and we could show that young blood could in fact mimic the effects of young mouse blood.
因此，我们从年轻人或老年人身上采集血液并将其注射到小鼠大脑中，我们可以证明年轻的血液实际上可以模仿年轻小鼠血液的效果。
So there were similar factors in humans as in mice.
因此，人类和小鼠中也存在类似的因素。
And then we went a step further and collaborated very closely with a company called Grifols, who is producing clinical medicines for hospitals based on plasma donations.
然后我们更进一步，与一家名为 Grifols 的公司密切合作，该公司基于血浆捐赠为医院生产临床药物。
So they have centers where volunteers donate plasma, and then they pool this, and they isolate, for example, antibodies.
因此，他们设立了志愿者捐赠血浆的中心，然后将其汇集起来，并分离出抗体等。
So if you're immunodeficient or if you had cancer therapy and you are immunosuppressed, you will get regular infusions of antibodies that are sourced from healthy people, from these volunteers.
因此，如果您患有免疫缺陷，或者接受过癌症治疗并且免疫受到抑制，您将定期注射来自健康人、这些志愿者的抗体。
Also, if you lose a lot of blood, you may get albumin, which is the main protein in our blood.
此外，如果您失血过多，您可能会得到白蛋白，这是我们血液中的主要蛋白质。
So this company had this manufacturing process where they collect thousands of donations, and they process it into different medicines.
所以这家公司有这样的制造过程，他们收集了数千名捐赠者，并将其加工成不同的药物。
And this allowed us to test these different fractions and see which ones have an effect in the mice.
这使我们能够测试这些不同的部分，看看哪些对小鼠有影响。
And again, we could find some of them that really were more powerful than others.
再说一遍，我们可以发现其中一些确实比其他的更强大。
And so we started some clinical trials in patients with Alzheimer's disease and Parkinson's disease and infused them with these fractions that we've shown have effects in mice.
因此，我们开始对阿尔茨海默病和帕金森病患者进行一些临床试验，并向他们注射这些成分，我们已证明这些成分对小鼠有效果。
And these were small trials, but they looked promising.
这些都是小试验，但看起来很有希望。
And they're related to what people have been observing previously, that if you get blood transfusions, often people have sort of feel invigorated, or they say their mind got cleared, or they improved.
它们与人们之前观察到的情况有关，如果你接受输血，人们通常会感到精力充沛，或者他们说他们的头脑变得清醒，或者他们的情况有所改善。
And this company, actually, Grifols, had also run a clinical study that was blinded, placebo-controlled in patients with Alzheimer's disease, where they first removed their plasma, this is called therapeutic plasma exchange, and then infused them back with a major blood component, this albumin, which also contains other factors.
事实上，Grifols 公司还对阿尔茨海默病患者进行了一项盲法、安慰剂对照的临床研究，他们首先取出血浆，这称为治疗性血浆交换，然后向他们回输一种主要的血液成分，即白蛋白，其中还含有其他因子。
And they saw clear significant benefits, and this was in 500 patients.
他们在 500 名患者身上看到了明显的显着益处。
So the field is trying to figure out next steps and hopefully do really one of these large clinical studies where you can then say, "This actually works and could get FDA approval."
因此，该领域正在尝试找出下一步措施，并希望能够真正开展一项大型临床研究，然后你可以说，“这确实有效，并且可以获得 FDA 的批准。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Have you done one of these?
你做过其中之一吗？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
I haven't.
我没有。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are you close with anyone who has?
你和有过这种经历的人关系密切吗？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
I know people who have done it, yes, and I know people who, as a response, actually then supported the research that we have been doing in this field.
是的，我知道有人做过这件事，而且我知道有人作为回应，实际上支持了我们在这一领域一直在进行的研究。
There are companies now that offer this, what is called therapeutic plasma exchange, and there was a small trial that was, again, placebo-controlled in 40 individuals, from a company called Circulate Therapeutics.
现在有一些公司提供这种服务，即所谓的治疗性血浆置换，并且有一家名为 Circulate Therapeutics 的公司在 40 个人中进行了一项小型试验，该试验再次以安慰剂为对照。
And they then looked in these individuals.
然后他们对这些人进行了调查。
These are healthy older people, and they used some of these measures that allow us to assess how old the body is or how old an organ is, called epigenetic clocks.
这些都是健康的老年人，他们使用了一些测量方法，使我们能够评估身体的年龄或器官的年龄，称为表观遗传时钟。
And they could indeed see that some of the organs looked younger or the body overall looked younger.
他们确实可以看到一些器官看起来更年轻，或者整个身体看起来更年轻。
There's some improvements in function.
功能上有一些改进。
Not dramatic, but suggesting that there might be something there.
并不戏剧性，但暗示那里可能有什么东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break to acknowledge one of our sponsors, David.
我想稍微休息一下，向我们的赞助商之一大卫表示感谢。
David makes protein bars unlike any other.
大卫制作的蛋白质棒与众不同。
Their newest bar, the Bronze Bar, has 20 grams of protein, only 150 calories, and zero grams of sugar.
他们最新的 Bronze Bar 含有 20 克蛋白质，仅 150 卡路里，零克糖。
I have to say, these are the best-tasting protein bars I've ever had, and I've tried a lot of protein bars over the years.
我不得不说，这些是我吃过的味道最好的蛋白质棒，这些年来我尝试过很多蛋白质棒。
These new David bars have a marshmallow base, and they're covered in chocolate coating, and they're absolutely incredible.
这些新的大卫巧克力棒有一个棉花糖底座，上面覆盖着巧克力涂层，它们绝对令人难以置信。
I, of course, eat regular whole foods.
当然，我经常吃天然食品。
I eat meat, chicken, fish, eggs, fruits, vegetables, et cetera.
我吃肉、鸡肉、鱼、鸡蛋、水果、蔬菜等等。
But I also make it a point to eat one or two David bars per day as a snack, which makes it easy to hit my protein goal of one gram of protein per pound of body weight.
但我也强调每天吃一两块大卫棒作为零食，这样很容易达到我每磅体重一克蛋白质的蛋白质目标。
And that allows me to take in the protein I need without consuming excess calories.
这使我能够摄入所需的蛋白质，而不会消耗过多的热量。
I love all the David Bronze Bar flavors, including Cookie Dough, Caramel Chocolate, Double Chocolate, Peanut Butter Chocolate.
我喜欢大卫青铜棒的所有口味，包括饼干面团、焦糖巧克力、双重巧克力、花生酱巧克力。
They all actually taste like candy bars.
它们实际上尝起来都像棒棒糖。
Again, they're amazing.
再说一次，他们太棒了。
But again, they have no sugar, and they have 20 grams of protein with just 150 calories.
但同样，它们不含糖，并且含有 20 克蛋白质，只有 150 卡路里热量。
If you'd like to try David, you can go to davidprotein.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 David，可以访问 david Protein.com/huberman。
Right now, David is offering a deal where if you buy four cartons, you get the fifth carton for free.
现在，大卫正在提供一项优惠，如果您购买四箱，您可以免费获得第五箱。
You can also find David on Amazon or in stores such as Target, Walmart, and Kroger.
您还可以在亚马逊或 Target、沃尔玛和克罗格等商店找到 David。
Again, to get the fifth carton for free, go to davidprotein.com/huberman.
同样，要免费获得第五箱，请访问 david Protein.com/huberman。
Today's episode is also brought to us by LMNT.
今天的节目也是LMNT给我们带来的。
LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't.
LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您需要的一切，没有您不需要的东西。
That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in the correct ratios, but no sugar.
这意味着电解质、钠、镁和钾的比例都正确，但不含糖。
Proper hydration is critical for brain and body function.
适当的水合作用对于大脑和身体功能至关重要。
Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish your cognitive and physical performance.
即使是轻微程度的脱水也会降低您的认知和身体表现。
It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes.
获得充足的电解质也很重要。
The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, are vital for the functioning of all cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells.
电解质（钠、镁和钾）对于体内所有细胞（尤其是神经元或神经细胞）的功能至关重要。
Drinking LMNT makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes.
饮用 LMNT 可以轻松确保您获得足够的水分和电解质。
My days tend to start really fast, meaning I have to jump right into work or right into exercise.
我的日子往往开始得很快，这意味着我必须立即投入工作或立即锻炼。
So to make sure that I'm hydrated and I have sufficient electrolytes, when I first wake up in the morning, I drink 16 to 32 ounces of water with an LMNT packet dissolved in it.
因此，为了确保我有足够的水分和足够的电解质，当我早上第一次醒来时，我会喝 16 至 32 盎司的水，其中溶解有 LMNT 包。
I also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes.
我还会在进行任何体育锻炼时饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT，尤其是在炎热的日子里，当我大量出汗并失去水和电解质时。
LMNT has a bunch of great-tasting flavors.
LMNT 有很多美味的口味。
In fact, I love them all.
事实上，我爱他们所有人。
I love the watermelon, the raspberry, the citrus, and I really love the lemonade flavor.
我喜欢西瓜、覆盆子、柑橘，而且我真的很喜欢柠檬水的味道。
So if you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with any purchase.
因此，如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman，购买任意商品即可领取免费的 LMNT 样品包。
Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.
再次强调，请访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman 索取免费样品包。
I can imagine a situation where there are factors in blood that can damage tissues that arise when there's some sort of injury, let's say a heart attack or even a hip fracture.
我可以想象这样一种情况，当发生某种伤害时，比如心脏病发作，甚至髋部骨折，血液中的某些因素可能会损害组织。
Pick an injury.
选择一个伤害。
I can also imagine a situation where the blood of very healthy, vigorous, younger organisms is devoid of all of that.
我还可以想象这样一种情况：非常健康、充满活力、年轻的生物体的血液中缺乏所有这些。
So when I'm thinking about what could be in young blood that could be rejuvenating, I can imagine that there's sort of a possible double dissociation there, that as we get older, we're having little, let's just call them micro-injuries that we're not aware of all the time, and that infusing young blood into that person would make them feel better.
因此，当我思考年轻人的血液中可能存在什么可以使人恢复活力时，我可以想象那里可能存在一种双重分离，随着我们年龄的增长，我们几乎没有什么，让我们称它们为我们一直没有意识到的微损伤，而将年轻的血液注入那个人会让他们感觉更好。
So you're counteracting the bad stuff.
所以你正在抵消坏的东西。
But there's another picture where you're supplying something that's pro-youthful.
但还有另一张图片，你提供了一些有利于年轻人的东西。
Do you know whether or not the proteins that are contained in young blood are inhibiting the damage-induced bad stuff, or it's supplying something that is really a kind of a youthful factor?
你知道年轻血液中所含的蛋白质是否能够抑制由损伤引起的不良物质，或者是否提供了某种真正的年轻因子？
Two different things.
两种不同的东西。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
And you could see where they'd interact, but the reason I'm getting granular here is because I think ultimately for a therapeutic, you'd want to be able to dissociate between these two.
你可以看到它们在哪里相互作用，但我在这里变得更细致的原因是因为我认为最终对于治疗来说，你希望能够在这两者之间分离。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
No, it totally makes sense.
不，这完全有道理。
And in a short answer, it's all of the above.
简而言之，就是以上所有内容。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
So what we see is with age, there's an increase in many of what we call inflammatory proteins, and we actually identified some, and in mice, if we knock them out or if we neutralize them, then cognition improves-
所以我们看到的是，随着年龄的增长，许多我们所说的炎症蛋白会增加，我们实际上识别出了一些，在老鼠身上，如果我们敲除它们或中和它们，那么认知就会改善——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm
嗯
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
...
...
in the mice, in old mice.
在小鼠中，在老小鼠中。
So there you have examples of factors and actually natural factors that can inhibit some of these detrimental factors.
因此，您可以找到可以抑制其中一些有害因素的因素和实际上的自然因素的例子。
But then you have also active pro-growth factors, growth factors that stimulate the activity of cells and might maintain stem cells better.
但同时你也有活跃的促生长因子，这些生长因子可以刺激细胞的活性，并可能更好地维持干细胞。
So they're truly beneficial factors, right?
所以它们确实是有益的因素，对吗？
The challenge in this field has been to figure out which ones are the most important ones, and is there a smallest possible number of factors that you would need to have an effect, right?
该领域的挑战是找出哪些是最重要的，以及是否需要尽可能少的因素才能产生影响，对吧？
Sort of a cocktail.
有点像鸡尾酒。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Now, you could say our blood is nature's cocktail, right?
现在，你可以说我们的血液是大自然的鸡尾酒，对吧？
It's the elixir of youth.
这是青春的灵丹妙药。
It just sort of...
它只是有点...
Or it's the fountain of youth that lives in us, but it dries out as we get older.
或者它是我们体内的青春之泉，但随着年龄的增长它会干涸。
But it also accumulates.
但它也会积累。
There's also an accumulation of bad stuff, so it's not just a loss of that fountain.
还有坏东西的积累，所以这不仅仅是喷泉的损失。
We have now tools where we can, in mice again, we can look at every cell in the body of a mouse, and we can ask, how do the cells in an old mouse respond to young blood?
我们现在有了工具，再次在小鼠身上，我们可以观察小鼠体内的每个细胞，我们可以问，年老小鼠的细胞对年轻血液有何反应？
And what you see is that almost every cell changes their behavior when we measure their transcript, so their gene expression in these cells, but they respond in different ways.
你看到的是，当我们测量它们的转录本时，几乎每个细胞都会改变它们的行为，因此它们在这些细胞中的基因表达，但它们以不同的方式做出反应。
And it's expected because they have different, what we call receptors.
这是预料之中的，因为它们有不同的，我们所说的受体。
So one cell may respond to one factor and another cell to another one.
因此，一个细胞可能会对一种因素做出反应，而另一个细胞可能会对另一种因素作出反应。
And what's also interesting, we see a lot of stem cells seem to be Targets of these young factors, which sort of proves what we originally described, but now in an unbiased way.
同样有趣的是，我们看到很多干细胞似乎是这些年轻因子的目标，这在某种程度上证明了我们最初描述的内容，但现在以一种公正的方式。
We look at everything and we ask: What are the major effects?
我们审视一切并问：主要影响是什么？
And then what you also see that some organelles, such as mitochondria, these are the energy producer units in inside cells, they are key targets of these rejuvenating effects.
然后你还看到一些细胞器，例如线粒体，它们是细胞内的能量产生单位，它们是这些恢复活力的关键目标。
So it all makes sense based on what we know from the aging field, what we know from stem cells and maintenance of stem cells.
因此，根据我们对衰老领域、干细胞和干细胞维护的了解，这一切都是有意义的。
But pinpointing which factor you would need to have this rejuvenating effect or which one you have to block has been extremely challenging because you almost have to go into the organism, and then we call these CRISPR tools, where you can knock out one gene after another and ask which one is the important one.
但是，确定需要哪种因素才能产生这种恢复活力或必须阻断哪种因素是极具挑战性的，因为您几乎必须进入生物体，然后我们称之为 CRISPR 工具，您可以在其中敲除一个又一个基因，并询问哪一个是重要的。
We can't really do this easily in vivo yet, but that's almost what we need to do.
我们还不能在体内轻易地做到这一点，但这几乎是我们需要做的。
So unfortunately, in the past 10 years, there's individual factors that people keep describing, but I think we have not really come up with a good method to integrate multiple different factors that could provide an amplified benefit and mimic what nature is doing.
不幸的是，在过去的十年里，人们不断描述一些个体因素，但我认为我们还没有真正找到一种很好的方法来整合多个不同的因素，从而提供放大的效益并模仿自然的行为。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Should I be banking my blood?
我应该储存我的血液吗？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
You don't have to.
你不必这样做。
Because what we find, even though there's differences, clear differences from one person to another, overall, if you have the blood of a young person, that blood has, overall, a similar concentration from another young person, and it would still be beneficial to you.
因为我们发现，尽管人与人之间存在差异，明显的差异，但总的来说，如果你有一个年轻人的血液，那么总体来说，另一个年轻人的血液具有相似的浓度，它仍然对你有益。
So all the blood that we ever used in our studies was always a pool from multiple individuals, and that still has the beneficial effect.
因此，我们在研究中使用的所有血液始终来自多个个体，这仍然具有有益的作用。
So for these type of studies, you would not have to bank your own blood.
因此，对于此类研究，您无需储存自己的血液。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is the lore around Dracula based on this general logic?
关于德古拉的传说是基于这个一般逻辑吗？
And if so, how do you think that lore arose?
如果是这样，您认为这个传说是如何产生的？
Meaning, I don't think somebody sat back and thought, "Oh, I can make up this story about this Count Dracula who drank youthful blood."
意思是，我不认为有人会坐下来思考，“哦，我可以编造这个关于喝了青春之血的德古拉伯爵的故事。”
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Does that mean that experiments were being done long ago?
这是否意味着实验很久以前就已经完成了？
I'm not trying to get gruesome here.
我并不是想在这里变得可怕。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah .
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But we know, for instance, bloodletting and a bunch of other scientifically dubious things have been used throughout history.
但我们知道，放血和其他一些科学上可疑的方法在历史上一直被使用。
But then again, to reduce iron load in the blood, some people will give blood.
但话又说回来，为了减少血液中的铁负荷，有些人会献血。
It's also a nice thing to do for your blood bank.
这对您的血库来说也是一件好事。
They need blood in hospitals, and too much iron load isn't good.
他们在医院需要血液，而铁含量过多并不好。
We know that.
我们知道这一点。
So what's known about the origins of the Dracula story vis-à-vis the science that we are now aware of?
那么，相对于我们现在所知的科学，我们对德古拉故事的起源了解多少呢？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Sort of in retrospect, I think where they came from is maybe more that people realized that blood is this essential fluid.
回想起来，我认为它们的来源可能更多的是人们意识到血液是这种必不可少的液体。
If you get a cut and you bleed too much, you're dead, right?
如果你被割伤并且流血过多，你就死定了，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
But then maybe also associated it with age or youthfulness.
但也许也将它与年龄或年轻联系起来。
I don't know exactly how.
我不知道具体怎么做。
We have not done, and this question came up many times before, we have actually never fed mice young blood.
我们没有做过，这个问题以前也出现过很多次，我们实际上从来没有给老鼠喂过幼血。
You could try that, right?
你可以尝试一下，对吧？
Because it would have to be absorbed.
因为它必须被吸收。
The factors would have to be absorbed into the body.
这些因素必须被身体吸收。
I wouldn't be surprised if some of them wouldn't have beneficial effects and survive the stomach acid environment of the stomach, but nobody's ever done it.
如果其中一些不能产生有益的作用并且不能在胃的胃酸环境中生存，我不会感到惊讶，但没有人这样做过。
I don't know where it comes from, but yeah.
我不知道它从哪里来，但是是的。
There's a lot of these questions.
有很多这样的问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
And bloodletting too, it's blood thinning also, right?
放血也是，也是血液稀释，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
These leeches release factors into the blood, and they must have done something, otherwise people would probably not have done it.
这些水蛭将因子释放到血液中，它们一定做了什么，否则人们可能不会这么做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's pretty wild.
这真是太狂野了。
Again, I'm not trying to be gruesome or medieval here.
再说一遍，我并不是想在这里变得可怕或中世纪。
It's just now and again, something from the historical text shows up in modern science, and we go, "Well, there's sort of a mapping of the past to something that is clearly of a scientific validation."
只是时不时地，历史文本中的一些东西出现在现代科学中，我们就会说，“嗯，有一种对过去的映射，显然是经过科学验证的。”
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm not promoting drinking blood.
我并不是提倡喝血。
I'm interested in organ-specific rates of aging.
我对特定器官的衰老速度感兴趣。
And then I also want to circle back to organ-specific delivery of nutrients, because what you're talking about is blood infusion.
然后我还想回到器官特异性的营养输送，因为你所说的是输血。
It goes everywhere.
它无处不在。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It goes into the general circulation.
它进入一般流通。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Right.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You've mainly focused on the brain, but it's possible that certain organs are more receptive to these youthful factors than others.
您主要关注的是大脑，但某些器官可能比其他器官更容易接受这些年轻因素。
Even the brain has a blood-brain barrier.
甚至大脑也有血脑屏障。
The gonads have a blood-gonad barrier for interesting reasons.
出于有趣的原因，性腺具有血性腺屏障。
What is known about the rates of aging in different organs?
关于不同器官的衰老速度，我们了解多少？
Do they happen in parallel or no?
它们是并行发生还是不并行发生？
And how different organs respond to these youthful factors.
以及不同的器官如何对这些年轻因素做出反应。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So it's really interesting that intuitively, you think an organism just ages as a whole in synchrony, we would say, right?
所以这真的很有趣，直觉上，你认为一个有机体作为一个整体同步老化，我们会说，对吧？
But what researchers have discovered, and this was first, I think Monica Driscoll was the first to show in worms that when she looked at the ultra-structural level, that some of these organs in the worm seem to look more aged than others.
但研究人员发现，这是第一个，我认为莫妮卡·德里斯科尔是第一个在蠕虫中展示的，当她观察超结构水平时，蠕虫中的一些器官似乎比其他器官更古老。
And over the years now, we have molecular tools where we can look at a single cell level or within an organ.
多年来，我们已经有了分子工具，可以在单个细胞水平或器官内进行观察。
And what we clearly see is that organs and cells within an organism can have slightly different rates of aging.
我们清楚地看到，生物体内的器官和细胞的衰老速度可能略有不同。
And the way we conclude that is if we look at all these tissues in many different organism, and every period of weeks or months in mice, for example, we harvest tissues from different animals.
我们得出的结论是，如果我们观察许多不同生物体中的所有这些组织，例如，每隔几周或几个月观察小鼠，我们就会从不同的动物身上收获组织。
We can see these trajectories that some of them are relatively stable for a long time, and then they start to decline, where others continue decline from early adulthood.
我们可以看到这些轨迹，其中一些在很长一段时间内相对稳定，然后开始下降，另一些则从成年早期开始持续下降。
And yet others may maintain almost until the animal expires.
还有一些人可能会一直维持到动物死亡为止。
So that allows you then, on an individual level, to ask if you compare now one individual to another, do their organs age exactly in the same way, or is maybe there a person whose heart ages a little bit faster than the rest of their body, and in another person, it would be the lung or the brain.
这样一来，您就可以在个人层面上询问，是否将一个人与另一个人进行比较，他们的器官老化是否完全相同，或者是否有人的心脏老化速度比身体其他部位快一点，而另一个人的老化速度可能是肺或大脑。
And that's indeed what we seem to be seeing.
这确实是我们所看到的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
And the way we did this in humans, and maybe we can talk about this now, is again, we look at these proteins, and there are companies now that can look at thousands of proteins in a drop of blood.
我们在人类身上做到这一点的方式，也许我们现在可以谈论这个，再次是，我们观察这些蛋白质，现在有些公司可以观察一滴血液中的数千种蛋白质。
And this is not Theranos.
这不是希拉洛斯。
This is actually real platforms, real science, where in just a drop of blood, there are companies that measure 11,000 proteins now, the concentration of these 11,000 proteins.
这实际上是真正的平台，真正的科学，现在只有一滴血，就有公司可以测量 11,000 种蛋白质，以及这 11,000 种蛋白质的浓度。
And there are large population-based cohorts where people follow healthy people over two decades or even longer now, and they collected blood.
还有大量基于人群的队列，人们跟踪健康人二十年甚至更长时间，并收集血液。
And so we can profile this blood now and we can ask, are proteins in that blood related to what diseases people develop or how they age?
因此，我们现在可以分析这种血液，我们可以问，血液中的蛋白质是否与人们患上什么疾病或如何衰老有关？
And the way how we make this, what people call a clock for a specific organ is, we look in your blood for proteins, for example, from the brain.
我们制造这种东西的方式，人们称之为特定器官的时钟，是在你的血液中寻找蛋白质，例如来自大脑的蛋白质。
So out of these thousands of proteins that we can measure in the blood, some of them originate from your brain.
因此，在我们可以在血液中测量的数千种蛋白质中，其中一些来自您的大脑。
Some originate from the lung, from the liver, from the heart.
有些源自肺、源自肝、源自心。
And we've always used that in clinical medicine, but we measure only a handful of proteins, usually a few liver proteins, a few heart proteins, and we use them to assess injury or loss of function.
我们一直在临床医学中使用它，但我们只测量少数蛋白质，通常是一些肝脏蛋白质，一些心脏蛋白质，我们用它们来评估损伤或功能丧失。
So if your liver is damaged, that's what we detect.
因此，如果您的肝脏受损，我们就会检测到。
But here we have now an opportunity to look in thousands of people at proteins that come, for example, from the liver, and ask how do they change with age?
但现在我们有机会在成千上万的人身上观察来自肝脏等的蛋白质，并询问它们如何随着年龄而变化？
And that allows us to then estimate the age of the liver in an individual.
这使我们能够估计个体肝脏的年龄。
And what we find is that for most people, the age of your organs is pretty much in sync with your body.
我们发现，对于大多数人来说，器官的年龄与身体的年龄几乎是同步的。
But for some individuals, you have more or less of a deviation.
但对于某些人来说，你或多或少有偏差。
So your liver may age faster than that of the rest of the population and the rest of your body.
因此，您的肝脏可能比其他人群和身体其他部位衰老得更快。
And what is really super exciting, we call this an age gap, so the difference between your actual age and the estimated age of your organ, and that's a very strong predictor of your future risk to develop disease in that organ.
真正令人兴奋的是，我们称之为年龄差距，即您的实际年龄与器官的估计年龄之间的差异，这是您未来该器官患疾病风险的强有力的预测因素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
So in other words, if your heart shows to age faster, you're more likely to get heart disease or a heart attack.
换句话说，如果您的心脏老化得更快，您就更有可能患上心脏病或心脏病发作。
If your kidney ages fast, you're going to get kidney disease.
如果你的肾脏老化得很快，你就会患上肾脏疾病。
If your brain ages faster, you're more likely going to get Alzheimer's disease.
如果你的大脑老化得更快，你就更有可能患上阿尔茨海默病。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is this a test that anyone can now take?
这是现在任何人都可以参加的测试吗？
Is it commercially available?
它可以商用吗？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah, so that's a great question.
是的，这是一个很好的问题。
We started a company with Paul Coletta called Vero Biosciences.
我们与 Paul Coletta 创办了一家名为 Vero Biosciences 的公司。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Vero?
维罗？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Vero Biosciences.
维罗生物科学公司。
And the mission is really to profile the age of organs to ideally eradicate chronic diseases and to maintain or to predict which organ is going to age, because what we find is that if you have an organ that ages faster, if you can detect that and you can do an intervention, you can potentially delay aging, right, and extend health span.
我们的使命实际上是描绘器官的年龄，以理想地根除慢性疾病，并维持或预测哪个器官会老化，因为我们发现，如果你有一个老化得更快的器官，如果你能检测到它并进行干预，你就有可能延缓衰老，对吧，并延长健康寿命。
And this is really the mission of Vero.
这确实是 Vero 的使命。
The Vero Compass uses a combination of this biological signature together with clinical and wearable data to create a platform that can predict how you respond, first of all, which organ is the most sensitive, which intervention you can use, and then whether your organ responds or not by repeated testing and sort of creating a continuous loop where I tell you which organ is of concern.
Vero Compass 将这种生物特征与临床和可穿戴数据相结合，创建一个平台，可以预测您的反应，首先哪个器官最敏感，您可以使用哪种干预措施，然后通过重复测试和创建一个连续循环来预测您的器官是否有反应，我告诉您哪个器官值得关注。
You get medical advice based on other data that we can obtain from you, and then you may get an intervention.
您根据我们从您那里获得的其他数据获得医疗建议，然后您可能会得到干预。
Could be a classic medical treatment, but it could also be a change in your lifestyle, exercise-
可能是一种经典的医学治疗，但也可能是生活方式的改变，锻炼——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Type of exercise
运动类型
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
...
...
change of diet, type of exercise, but have it tailored-
改变饮食、运动类型，但要量身定制-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
...
...
to your specific needs, and then we can test, does that intervention actually change the age of your organ?
根据您的具体需求，然后我们可以测试，这种干预是否真的会改变您器官的年龄？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It seems spectacular.
看起来很壮观。
I realize in addition, let's say I were going to start a new medication, maybe taking a new drug for ADHD.
此外，我意识到，假设我要开始一种新的药物治疗，也许服用一种治疗多动症的新药。
Not for me, I don't have ADHD, fortunately, but people are doing this all the time now, trying different drugs for different things-
不适合我，幸运的是，我没有多动症，但人们现在一直在这样做，尝试不同的药物来治疗不同的事情 -
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Right.
对。
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or taking something to lower their ApoB, as it were, and then you could monitor how that impacts, for better or worse, the age of a particular organ or set of organs.
或者服用某些东西来降低他们的 ApoB，然后你就可以监测它如何影响特定器官或一组器官的年龄，无论是好还是坏。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
So in many diseases, complex diseases, Alzheimer's disease in particular, we know that people have probably different forms of Alzheimer's disease, and we know there are risk factors that predispose you to have Alzheimer's disease.
因此，在许多疾病中，尤其是复杂疾病，特别是阿尔茨海默氏病，我们知道人们可能患有不同形式的阿尔茨海默氏病，并且我们知道存在使您容易患上阿尔茨海默氏病的风险因素。
But most of the trials now are done in all comers with the disease who already have the diagnosis And so you could imagine that if you have these predictors of change, the predictors of risk, and you get actually more resolution, and we can talk about that in a minute, what the next stage is of this type of research, you may get different profiles in people and say, "Okay, let's test this new drug in this type of Alzheimer's disease who has a very particular risk profile, rather than in everyone," and then the drug fails.
但现在大多数试验都是在所有已经确诊的阿尔茨海默病患者中进行的。所以你可以想象，如果你有这些变化的预测因子，风险的预测因子，并且你实际上得到了更多的解决方案，我们可以稍后讨论这种类型研究的下一阶段是什么，你可能会在不同的人群中得到不同的资料，然后说，“好吧，让我们在这种阿尔茨海默病中测试这种新药，他们有一个非常特殊的风险状况，而不是在每个人中，”然后药物失败。
I think we may have tested a lot of drugs out there that might actually be beneficial, but because we apply them to everyone and we apply them too late, they fail, and we throw them away.
我认为我们可能已经测试了很多实际上可能有益的药物，但因为我们将它们应用于每个人并且我们应用得太晚，所以它们失败了，我们把它们扔掉了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
We had David Fajgenbaum, Dr. David Fajgenbaum, he's an MD, University of Pennsylvania, professor of medicine, who himself was diagnosed with Castleman's disease and took it upon himself to try essentially every approved drug as a last-ditch effort.
我们有大卫·法根鲍姆 (David Fajgenbaum)，大卫·法根鲍姆 (David Fajgenbaum) 博士，他是宾夕法尼亚大学的医学博士、医学教授，他本人被诊断出患有卡斯尔曼氏病，并亲自尝试了几乎所有已批准的药物，作为最后的努力。
He was dying, basically.
基本上，他快要死了。
And he came up with a combination, a small kit of already approved medications, and he's now been alive 11 years since his essentially death diagnosis.
他想出了一个组合方案，即一小套已获批准的药物，自从他被诊断出基本死亡以来，他现在已经活了 11 年。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or, excuse me, death prognosis.
或者，对不起，死亡预测。
And he has a not-for-profit called EveryCure, where people with diseases that have resisted all other forms of treatment, people can go there, and they use AI to come up with reasonable candidates to try, because as he said exactly what you said, which is that many of the solutions to diseases that are common may already exist, but they've been swamped by the variation in those diseases when looked at in clinical trials.
他有一个名为EveryCure的非营利组织，患有对所有其他形式的治疗都产生抵抗的疾病的人可以去那里，他们使用人工智能提出合理的候选方案来尝试，因为正如他所说的那样，许多常见疾病的解决方案可能已经存在，但在临床试验中观察时，它们已经被这些疾病的变异所淹没。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Right.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So the idea that we're already sitting on good treatments and cures that wouldn't have to pass through all the testing is very interesting.
因此，我们已经拥有不需要通过所有测试的良好治疗方法和治愈方法的想法非常有趣。
There's also very little incentive for drug companies to invest in those because they've passed through their patent window, so there's not a lot of money to be made.
制药公司也没有什么动力去投资这些产品，因为它们已经过了专利窗口，所以赚不到多少钱。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah, that's sometimes another problem.
是的，这有时是另一个问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have a question that I promise, I'm just going to be-- I've had this podcast long enough to know that I don't tap dance around things anymore.
我有一个问题，我保证，我会——我已经听这个播客足够长的时间了，知道我不再围绕着事情跳踢踏舞了。
David Sinclair has been very-- I'm not trying to attack David, but I want to know.
大卫·辛克莱一直非常——我并不是想攻击大卫，但我想知道。
David has been very vocal about NAD and the NMN pathway, which is upstream of NR.
David 一直非常热衷于 NAD 和 NMN 通路（NR 的上游）。
Others have talked about NR.
其他人也谈到了NR。
There's Tru Niagen.
这是特鲁·尼亚根。
I'm not trying to go after any one person or company, but for a while, there was a lot of excitement, mainly generated by David, that NAD, which goes down across development into adulthood, might be a pro-longevity treatment.
我并不是想追随任何人或公司，但有一段时间，人们很兴奋，主要是由 David 引起的，NAD 可能是一种长寿的治疗方法，它会贯穿整个发育过程直至成年。
I confess, I take NMN powder.
我承认，我吃NMN粉。
I don't get paid to say this.
我说这些话并没有得到报酬。
It doesn't even matter what company I get it from because I buy it like everybody else.
我从哪家公司购买它并不重要，因为我像其他人一样购买它。
I don't have any belief that it's going to increase my lifespan, but it seems to have a pro-energy effect that I like.
我不相信它会延长我的寿命，但它似乎具有我喜欢的促进能量的作用。
And for some reason, it makes my hair grow very fast and my nails grow very thick, which is a side effect I wasn't looking for.
由于某种原因，它使我的头发长得很快，指甲也长得很厚，这是我不希望看到的副作用。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Okay, maybe I should try it, too.
好吧，也许我也应该尝试一下。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My sister experiences the same thing, but this is all anecdata, right?
我姐姐也经历过同样的事情，但这都是轶事，对吧？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Again, I make no money for saying this.
再说一遍，我说这话并没有赚钱。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I've seen a lot of criticism of the NAD hypothesis of longevity.
但我看到了很多对 NAD 长寿假说的批评。
And so is there any evidence that increasing NAD levels, either through NMN or through NR or direct infusion or injection of NAD, any of those things, can actually extend the lifespan of humans and/or experimental models?
那么，是否有任何证据表明，通过 NMN 或通过 NR 或直接输注或注射 NAD 等方式提高 NAD 水平，实际上可以延长人类和/或实验模型的寿命？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
This is not my area of expertise, but just as a blank statement, there is no human intervention that can extend lifespan that has been tested or validated.
这不是我的专业领域，但只是作为一个空白声明，没有经过测试或验证的可以延长寿命的人为干预。
There are many that have shown beneficial effects in animal models, including NMN and all these metabolites.
许多药物已在动物模型中显示出有益效果，包括 NMN 和所有这些代谢物。
There's actually a clinical study that shows that if you take these supplements, they increase your levels in the blood.
实际上，一项临床研究表明，如果您服用这些补充剂，它们会增加血液中的水平。
That's a good clinical study, but it doesn't show that it has an effect on lifespan or even on frailty or any other tangible outcome.
这是一项很好的临床研究，但它并没有表明它对寿命、甚至对虚弱或任何其他有形结果有影响。
And this is the case with many other medications that might be beneficial, but they have simply not been tested in a clinical trial.
许多其他可能有益的药物也是如此，但它们根本没有经过临床试验的测试。
They have been tested in disease sometimes, and they are very good drugs to treat a person who is sick, but they have not been tested in healthy elder people and see whether they reduce aging or increase health span.
有时它们已经在疾病中进行了测试，它们是治疗病人的非常好的药物，但它们还没有在健康的老年人中进行过测试，看看它们是否可以延缓衰老或延长健康寿命。
There's really nothing out there except exercise and diets.
除了运动和节食，真的没有什么办法了。
Those have sort of proven effects.
这些已经被证明有一定的效果。
There's a very good study from a researcher in Singapore who tested 10 different preparations of NMN, and she found that many of them actually don't contain what is on the label.
新加坡的一位研究人员进行了一项非常好的研究，她测试了 10 种不同的 NMN 制剂，她发现其中许多实际上不含有标签上的成分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That doesn't surprise me.
这并不令我惊讶。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
And that's the case for most supplements.
大多数补充剂都是这种情况。
For half the supplements, there's many resources out there you can check, or you can just ask ChatGPT.
对于一半的补充，您可以查看许多资源，或者您也可以询问 ChatGPT。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
There's not in there what it says.
里面并没有写什么。
And with NMN, apparently, and according to ChatGPT, it's very unstable, and so it degrades quite quickly.
显然，根据 ChatGPT 的说法，NMN 非常不稳定，因此退化得很快。
So you want to make sure, I think with any supplement, if you want to try it, make sure it's from a good source.
因此，我认为对于任何补充剂，如果您想尝试，请确保它来自良好的来源。
And that it has been-
而且它已经——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Third party tested
第三方测试
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
...
...
that it has been third party tested, yeah.
它已经过第三方测试，是的。
And you use it within the time frame.
并且您在规定的时间内使用它。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
No, I appreciate you saying that.
不，我很欣赏你这么说。
Like I said, I don't expect to live longer because of taking NAD.
就像我说的，我并不期望因为服用 NAD 而活得更长。
I just sort of like the effect that it appears to give me.
我只是有点喜欢它给我带来的效果。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to talk about the relationship between things that increase vitality that are abundant in youth versus their possible role in decreasing longevity.
我想谈谈那些能增强年轻人活力的事物与它们可能导致寿命缩短的事物之间的关系。
I've been fascinated by this for a long time.
我对此着迷已有很长一段时间了。
So bear with me here, and I'll try and set the stage, and then I'll be quiet.
所以请耐心等待，我会尽力做好准备，然后我就会保持安静。
Puberty is perhaps the fastest rate of aging that we undergo in our entire lifespan.
青春期可能是我们一生中经历的最快的衰老速度。
Within two years, we transform as an organism.
两年之内，我们就转变为一个有机体。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Some people progress through puberty much faster.
有些人进入青春期的速度要快得多。
Other people seem to have a more protracted puberty.
其他人的青春期似乎更长。
And here I'm defining puberty as the acquisition of secondary sex characteristics, facial hair, et cetera, reproductive ability, et cetera.
在这里，我将青春期定义为第二性征、面部毛发等、生殖能力等的获得。
Okay?
好的？
So puberty is a constellation of things that obviously differs in males and females.
因此，青春期是一系列在男性和女性中明显不同的事物。
It's correlated with hormones like testosterone, estrogen, gonadotropins, et cetera, but really it's a brain thing that switches on that then initiates all of this.
它与睾酮、雌激素、促性腺激素等激素相关，但实际上它是大脑的一个东西，它会启动然后启动所有这一切。
So there have been many attempts in the kind of health and wellness space to take the hormones, usually, testosterone, estrogen, and growth hormone being the three primary ones, and then supply those to people in adulthood.
因此，在健康和保健领域已经进行了许多尝试，以获取激素，通常是睾酮、雌激素和生长激素这三种主要激素，然后将这些激素提供给成年的人。
Perimenopausal women taking estrogen and/or testosterone nowadays, quite frequently.
如今，围绝经期妇女经常服用雌激素和/或睾酮。
This happens a lot.
这种情况经常发生。
Men taking testosterone either because they need to "replace it" or they're just trying to augment what they already have.
男性服用睾酮要么是因为他们需要“替代它”，要么只是想增强他们已有的睾酮水平。
Growth hormone.
生长激素。
Certainly, all of these things dosed appropriately, we know will increase vitality, energy, libido, recovery from exercise, in some cases maybe cognition, et cetera.
当然，我们知道，所有这些剂量适当的东西都会增加活力、精力、性欲、运动恢复，在某些情况下可能会增强认知等等。
But it's also been demonstrated that when you increase growth hormone in IGF-1, that you decrease lifespan.
但也有研究表明，当 IGF-1 中的生长激素增加时，寿命就会缩短。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is seen in large dogs versus small dogs.
这在大型犬和小型犬中都可以看到。
The reason larger dogs live so much shorter lives than small dogs is because of the dosing of IGF-1.
大型犬的寿命比小型犬短得多的原因是 IGF-1 的剂量。
So how do you look at the balance between vitality and longevity, and are there factors that can increase both vitality and longevity?
那么如何看待活力与长寿的平衡，有没有什么因素可以同时增加活力与长寿呢？
Because to my knowledge, the things that, these hormones mainly, that increase vitality, well, if they allow you to exercise more and perhaps be leaner, then perhaps they buy you some additional time in life.
因为据我所知，这些激素主要是增加活力的东西，如果它们能让你锻炼更多，也许更瘦，那么它们也许能为你赢得一些额外的生命时间。
But they also decrease the amount of time you have alive.
但它们也会减少你的生存时间。
So it's a very interesting interplay, and most people conflate longevity and vitality.
所以这是一种非常有趣的相互作用，大多数人将长寿和活力混为一谈。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
That's an excellent question, and the short answer is we don't know.
这是一个很好的问题，简短的回答是我们不知道。
We don't really know.
我们真的不知道。
And in the aging field, this is called antagonistic pleiotropy.
在衰老领域，这被称为拮抗多效性。
So something that is good when you're young can be bad when you're old.
所以，年轻时好的东西，年老时可能就变坏了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
It relates to this concept.
就和这个概念有关。
And humans are, of course, they're sort of exempt from evolution, if you will, right?
当然，如果你愿意的话，人类在某种程度上可以免受进化的影响，对吗？
So our natural lifespan is probably around 30 to 40.
所以我们的自然寿命大概是30到40岁左右。
If you look back in history, that's how long people lived.
如果你回顾历史，人们的寿命就是这么长。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
There were always individuals who had exceptional lifespan, but most people would die much earlier.
总有一些人的寿命特别长，但大多数人都会死得更早。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Of what?
属于什么？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Infections and it was probably mostly infectious diseases.
感染，可能主要是传染病。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
But you could argue from an evolutionary perspective, once you're sexually mature, you reproduced, and you guaranteed your offspring, which is around 30 to 40 years, nature doesn't care about you anymore.
但你可以从进化的角度争论，一旦你性成熟，你繁衍后代，你保证你的后代，大约30到40年，大自然就不再关心你了。
And so there's no longer, it's very brutal to hear, but-
所以就不再存在了，听上去很残酷，但是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As long as your kids are sufficient enough to raise you.
只要你的孩子足够养活你。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
An infant can't raise itself.
婴儿还不能自己长大。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A seven-year-old maybe could-
一个七岁的孩子也许可以——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
if they were very industrious.
如果他们非常勤奋的话。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But kids need us at least until they're in their-
但孩子们需要我们，至少直到他们进入他们的-
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
They need us, yeah
他们需要我们，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
late teens.
十几岁晚期。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Or teens.
或者青少年。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
And then you may have some evolutionary pressure to maintain individuals who have knowledge and wisdom to help the group to survive.
然后你可能会面临一些进化压力，以维持拥有知识和智慧的个体来帮助群体生存。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
But that's probably a much weaker force of evolution to keep you alive, right?
但这可能是一种微弱的进化力量来维持你的生存，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
And so that's why people increasingly see now that there are these inflection points that menopause, but also in men around age 30 to 40, dramatic changes in the composition, again, of the blood.
这就是为什么人们现在越来越多地看到，更年期存在这些拐点，而且在 30 岁至 40 岁左右的男性中，血液成分也发生了巨大的变化。
We just looked at this, I mentioned earlier, if you look at the composition of the blood across human lifespan from 20 to 90, we call these waves of aging.
我之前提到过，我们只是研究了这一点，如果你观察人类从 20 岁到 90 岁的整个生命周期中的血液成分，我们称之为衰老波。
The first wave is around 35 years of age.
第一波年龄在35岁左右。
Dramatic changes in concentrations of lots of factors, and not just in women, in men as well.
许多因素的浓度发生了巨大的变化，不仅是女性，男性也是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
35.
35.
To degradation?
退化？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
35 to 40.
35 至 40。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Any improvements?
有什么改进吗？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Some go up, some go down, and it's speculative, but does that have something to do with this is how long nature needs us, and then it doesn't care.
有些上升，有些下降，这是推测性的，但这是否与大自然需要我们多久有关，然后它就不在乎了。
And the fact that we live now 80 or even longer, on average, is really thanks to hygiene and certain medications that blood pressure and heart disease that we have been able-
事实上，我们现在的平均寿命是 80 岁甚至更长，这确实要归功于卫生条件和某些药物，我们已经能够控制血压和心脏病——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right, antibiotics.
对了，抗生素。
I have a friend who called me over the weekend and he's got some-
我有一个朋友周末打电话给我，他有一些-
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Antibiotics, absolutely.
绝对是抗生素。
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I mean, he's got a brutal infection that almost took out his vision in one eye.
我的意思是，他受到了严重的感染，几乎夺走了他一只眼睛的视力。
Antibiotics infused, boom.
注入抗生素，繁荣。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Done.
完成。
I know some listeners don't like antibiotics, and they're concerned about it.
我知道有些听众不喜欢抗生素，他们对此感到担忧。
I'll tell you, if you have a brutal infection that's aggressive and it's near your brain or your eye and you get on systemic antibiotics, and they're the right one, you are one lucky individual.
我告诉你，如果你患有严重的侵袭性感染，并且它靠近你的大脑或眼睛，并且你接受了全身抗生素，而它们是正确的，那么你就是一个幸运的人。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Oh, absolutely.
哦，绝对是。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And if you don't, you could be looking at excavating one or both eyes.
如果你不这样做，你可能会考虑挖掘一只或两只眼睛。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's brutal.
太残酷了。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, wonderful tools.
是的，很棒的工具。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
I mean, for many different infections, antibiotics are a lifesaver.
我的意思是，对于许多不同的感染，抗生素是救星。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Yeah, so it's a really good point, and actually my friend, Tom Rando, mentioned earlier, he always makes that point that a lot of the study look at lifespan as an outcome in animal models, but they don't really look at how active or what is sort of the level of that extended lifespan is.
是的，这是一个非常好的观点，实际上我的朋友汤姆·兰多（Tom Rando）之前提到过，他总是指出，很多研究都将寿命视为动物模型的结果，但他们并没有真正关注延长寿命的活跃程度或水平。
Are they just hanging in there, these organisms, or are they still strong and vital, right?
这些生物体只是挂在那里，还是仍然强大而有活力，对吗？
Is the vitality still there?
活力还在吗？
And I think we haven't found a magic that would keep everything together for a longer period of time, and certainly not in humans.
我认为我们还没有找到一种可以将所有东西长时间保持在一起的魔法，尤其是在人类身上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you're a regular listener of the Huberman Lab podcast, you've no doubt heard me talk about the vitamin mineral probiotic drink AG1.
如果您是 Huberman Lab 播客的常客，您无疑听过我谈论过维生素矿物质益生菌饮料 AG1。
And if you've been on the fence about it, now's an awesome time to give it a try.
如果您一直对此持观望态度，那么现在正是尝试的好时机。
For the next few weeks, AG1 is giving away a full supplement package with your first subscription to AG1.
在接下来的几周内，AG1 将在您首次订阅 AG1 时赠送完整的补充包。
They're giving away a free bottle of vitamin D3+K2, a bottle of omega-3 fish oil capsules, and a sample pack of the new sleep formula, AGZ, which by the way, is now the only sleep supplement I take.
他们免费赠送一瓶维生素 D3+K2、一瓶 omega-3 鱼油胶囊和新睡眠配方 AGZ 样品包，顺便说一下，它是我现在唯一服用的睡眠补充剂。
It's fantastic.
太棒了。
My sleep on AGZ is out of this world good.
我在 AGZ 的睡眠质量非常好。
AGZ is a drink, so it eliminates the need to take a lot of pills.
AGZ 是一种饮料，因此无需服用大量药片。
It tastes great, and like I said, it has me sleeping incredibly well, waking up more refreshed than ever.
它味道好极了，就像我说的，它让我睡得非常好，醒来时比以往任何时候都精神焕发。
I absolutely love it.
我非常喜欢它。
Again, this is a limited time offer, so make sure to go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get started today.
再次强调，这是限时优惠，因此请务必立即访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 开始。
Today's episode is also brought to us by ROKA.
今天的节目也是ROKA给我们带来的。
I'm excited to share that ROKA and I recently teamed up to create a new pair of red lens glasses.
我很高兴与大家分享，我和 ROKA 最近联手打造了一副新的红色镜片眼镜。
These red lens glasses are meant to be worn in the evening after the sun goes down.
这些红色镜片的眼镜适合在晚上太阳落山后佩戴。
They filter out short wavelength light that comes from screens and from LED lights, which are the most common indoor lighting nowadays.
它们过滤掉来自屏幕和 LED 灯的短波长光，这是当今最常见的室内照明。
I want to emphasize ROKA red lens glasses are not traditional blue blockers.
我想强调的是，ROKA 红色镜片眼镜不是传统的防蓝光眼镜。
They do filter out blue light, but they filter out a lot more than just blue light.
它们确实过滤掉蓝光，但它们过滤的不仅仅是蓝光。
In fact, they filter out the full range of short wavelength light that suppresses the hormone melatonin.
事实上，它们会过滤掉所有抑制褪黑激素的短波长光。
By the way, you want melatonin high in the evening and at night.
顺便说一句，您需要在傍晚和夜间获得高浓度的褪黑激素。
Makes it easy to fall and stay asleep.
让人很容易入睡并保持睡眠状态。
And those short wavelengths trigger increases in cortisol.
这些短波长会引发皮质醇的增加。
Increases in cortisol are great in the early part of the day, but you do not want increases in cortisol in the evening and at night.
一天中的早些时候，皮质醇会大量增加，但您不希望傍晚和晚上皮质醇会增加。
These ROKA red lens glasses ensure normal, healthy increases in melatonin and that your cortisol levels stay low, which is again, what you want in the evening and at night.
这些 ROKA 红色镜片眼镜可确保褪黑激素正常、健康地增加，并使您的皮质醇水平保持在较低水平，这也是您在晚上和晚上想要的。
In doing so, these ROKA red lens glasses really help you calm down and improve your transition to sleep.
通过这样做，这些 ROKA 红色镜片眼镜确实可以帮助您平静下来并改善您的睡眠过渡。
If you'd like to try ROKA, go to roka.com.
如果您想尝试 ROKA，请访问 roka.com。
That's R-O-K-A.com and enter the code Huberman to save 20% off your first order.
这是 R-O-K-A.com，输入代码 Huberman 即可为您的第一笔订单节省 20%。
Again, that's roka.com and enter the code Huberman at checkout.
同样，这是 roka.com，并在结账时输入代码 Huberman。
Lately, I've been somewhat surprised, although not entirely, by some of the data on sunlight exposure and lifespan.
最近，我对一些有关阳光照射和寿命的数据感到有些惊讶，尽管不是完全惊讶。
There's this really interesting large-scale study out of Sweden where the more sunlight exposure people got, the longer they live.
瑞典有一项非常有趣的大规模研究，其中人们接触的阳光越多，他们的寿命就越长。
Even smokers who get more sunlight appear to, on average, these are averages, folks-
平均而言，即使是接受更多阳光照射的吸烟者，这些也只是平均值，伙计们——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
seem to, so overlapping distributions-
看起来，如此重叠的分布-
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
I know, that's interesting
我知道，这很有趣
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but live longer than non-smokers who don't get sufficient sunlight.
但比没有得到充足阳光的不吸烟者寿命更长。
Now, getting a lot of sunlight is also correlated with outdoor activity, fresh air, a number of things.
现在，获得大量阳光也与户外活动、新鲜空气等许多因素相关。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's far from perfect study.
这离完美的研究还很远。
But yeah, the interplay between vitality, and I think of sunlight as pro-vitality, and longevity is such an interesting one because the dance that we seem to be playing now with medications and could be supplements, but really medication and lifestyle is what can we do and take to get more life, but also to enjoy that life more.
但是，是的，活力，我认为阳光有利于活力，与长寿之间的相互作用是如此有趣，因为我们现在似乎正在与药物一起跳舞，并且可以作为补充剂，但真正的药物和生活方式才是我们可以做的和采取的，以获得更多的生命，同时也更多地享受生活。
And there are certain things like growth hormone, which will make people feel much more youthful.
还有一些东西，比如生长激素，会让人们感觉更年轻。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Much more youthful.
年轻了很多。
Skin, hair, even cognition, et cetera, ability to maintain or put on muscle, lose fat, and on and on.
皮肤、头发，甚至认知等等，维持或增加肌肉、减掉脂肪的能力等等。
But higher IGF-1 and growth hormone, broadly speaking, means a shorter life.
但从广义上讲，较高的 IGF-1 和生长激素意味着较短的寿命。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Maybe comes at a price.
也许是有代价的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I guess, that can be determined individually whether or not somebody wants to make that trade-off, but what I'm excited about are the things that are possibly in these blood transfusions that come from younger humans, maybe us, but younger humans, you said pooled, that are getting to cellular function in a different way, that are restoring vitality and longevity.
所以我想，这可以单独决定是否有人想要做出这种权衡，但令我兴奋的是这些输血中可能存在来自年轻人类的东西，也许是我们，但年轻的人类，你说的是，它们正在以不同的方式获得细胞功能，正在恢复活力和寿命。
And maybe there are a few candidates that you could discuss with us and what pathways they impinge on.
也许您可以与我们讨论一些候选者以及它们影响的途径。
I probably won't be familiar with the specific molecules, but are they impacting DNA, the epigenome?
我可能不熟悉特定分子，但它们会影响 DNA（表观基因组）吗？
Are they impacting mitochondrial function?
它们会影响线粒体功能吗？
If you would maybe pick your two or three favorite candidates, if you can.
如果可以的话，您可以选择两到三个最喜欢的候选人。
I know some of these are still under study.
我知道其中一些仍在研究中。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
The factors often are growth factors.
这些因素通常是生长因素。
GDF11 is one of them that has been described, growth and differentiation factor 11.
GDF11 是已描述的其中之一，即生长和分化因子 11。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
IGF-1 actually also has been described to be in young blood is higher.
IGF-1实际上也被描述为在年轻人的血液中较高。
There are factors that have been identified through an approach that is similar to transferring young versus old.
通过类似于转移年轻人与老年人的方法已经确定了一些因素。
So what one of my trainees, that's Olvi Laita when he was a graduate student in my lab, he did these parabiosis experiments.
我的一位实习生，即奥尔维·莱塔（Olvi Laita），当他还是我实验室的研究生时，他做了这些联体共生实验。
And then his lab and my lab independently did an experiment where we exercised mice, young mice.
然后他的实验室和我的实验室独立做了一个实验，我们对小老鼠、小老鼠进行锻炼。
We took their blood, and we injected it in non-exercise mice, and we could show that the beneficial effects of exercise on the brain were transmitted again by blood.
我们抽取了它们的血液，并将其注射到不运动的小鼠体内，我们可以证明运动对大脑的有益作用再次通过血液传递。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Were you going young to young?
你从年轻到年轻吗？
So-
所以——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
We went young to young.
我们从年轻到年轻。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
So Olvi went young to old and could show that he can have a stronger effect on these brains than just young blood.
因此，奥尔维从年轻到年老，可以证明他对这些大脑的影响比仅仅对年轻血液的影响更强。
If it's exercised young blood, it's even better.
如果能锻炼年轻的血液，那就更好了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So surprising to me because I think of exercise as a purposeful stress-
这让我很惊讶，因为我认为锻炼是一种有目的的压力——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that induces inflammatory molecules that then induce an adaptation.
诱导炎症分子，然后诱导适应。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
It does, yeah.
确实如此，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are there factors that are liberated during exercise, brain-derived neurotrophic factor, et cetera, that are pro-health and vitality, that are not designed to get an adaptation-
是否有一些在运动过程中释放的因子，脑源性神经营养因子等，有利于健康和活力，但并不是为了获得适应而设计的？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that are just good stuff coming out of the cells when we exercise?
那只是我们运动时从细胞中释放出来的好东西吗？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
What both actually he and my lab found is that somehow this exercise seemed to trigger the release of factors from the liver That then go to the brain and make the brain function better.
他和我的实验室实际上发现，这种练习似乎以某种方式触发了肝脏释放一些因子，然后这些因子进入大脑，使大脑功能更好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
In our case, we describe the protein as called clusterin.
在我们的例子中，我们将这种蛋白质描述为聚集蛋白。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
It has many different roles.
它有许多不同的角色。
It can bind to lipids.
它可以与脂质结合。
It's also called apolipoprotein J.
它也称为载脂蛋白 J。
It's involved in coagulation and complement pathway.
它参与凝血和补体途径。
Very complicated.
非常复杂。
We couldn't quite figure out how does it have these effects, but we could show that if we make recombinant synthetic clusterin and inject it into mice, we could mimic some of the effect.
我们不太清楚它是如何产生这些效果的，但我们可以证明，如果我们制造重组合成凝聚素并将其注射到小鼠体内，我们可以模拟一些效果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is clusterin?
这是簇素？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's in the complement pathway.
它位于补体途径中。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Complement, initially identified as part of the immune system, coats cells as a part of the eat me signal in the immune system or the eat me system, but does many other things, too, right, involved in synapse formation and remodeling, and we know from Beth Stevens' work and others.
补体最初被认为是免疫系统的一部分，作为免疫系统或“吃我”系统中“吃我”信号的一部分覆盖细胞，但也做许多其他事情，涉及突触形成和重塑，我们从贝丝·史蒂文斯和其他人的工作中了解到。
Wild.
荒野。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Wild.
狂野。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wild.
狂野。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
And then Saul found another factor that's called GPLDH, that, again, he can clearly show has an effect, but how exactly it does that is not clear.
然后索尔发现了另一个称为 GPLDH 的因素，他再次可以清楚地表明它有影响，但具体如何发挥作用尚不清楚。
Most recently, he did another really creative experiment where he did caloric restriction of mice.
最近，他做了另一个非常有创意的实验，对小鼠进行热量限制。
And again, that's sort of an accepted beneficial effect and longevity promoting, potentially, and takes the plasma from mice, puts it into other mice, and again, can isolate factors that mimic this effect.
再说一遍，这是一种公认的有益效果，有可能促进长寿，并从小鼠身上取出血浆，将其放入其他小鼠体内，并且可以再次分离出模仿这种效果的因素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because of intermittent fasting?
因为间歇性禁食？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
What this tells us is that this is physiology, right?
这告诉我们这是生理学，对吗？
We call this physiology, but organs in our body communicate with each other, and there's an orchestration of effects that leads to factors that are released into the blood, and then they go to different organs and have, in this case, beneficial effects.
我们称之为生理学，但我们体内的器官相互沟通，并且有一系列的影响导致因子释放到血液中，然后它们进入不同的器官，在这种情况下产生有益的影响。
So the exercise effect is not just because you think you're exercising, but there are actually factors released that seem to benefit your brain.
所以运动效果不仅仅是因为你认为你在运动，而是实际上释放了一些似乎对你的大脑有益的因素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So interesting.
太有趣了。
There's this idea that was, at least to me, first put forth in a book called "Spark." Do you know John Ratey's book?
至少对我来说，这个想法是在一本名为“Spark”的书中首次提出的。你知道约翰·雷蒂的书吗？
It came out some years ago.
它是几年前问世的。
He's a physician, I believe trained at Harvard Med.
他是一名医生，我相信他曾在哈佛医学院接受过培训。
And he talked about the essential requirements for movement and brain plasticity.
他还谈到了运动和大脑可塑性的基本要求。
This was early days of understanding neuroplasticity, but he talked about brain-derived neurotrophic factor, other things that are liberated by exercise.
这是理解神经可塑性的早期阶段，但他谈到了脑源性神经营养因子，以及通过运动释放的其他物质。
But he described some interesting experiments in there of, for instance, there's a sea-dwelling creature that swims around and has a fairly elaborate nervous system, at least for it, but then at some point in its life, settles down on a rock and eats its own nervous system, basically.
但他在那里描述了一些有趣的实验，例如，有一种海栖生物，它四处游动，有一个相当复杂的神经系统，至少对它来说是这样，但在它生命的某个时刻，它会定居在一块岩石上，基本上吃掉自己的神经系统。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there's been some interesting experiments looking at what happens when you get that organism or other organisms, I believe, I think it was that organism, but other organisms to continue moving.
有一些有趣的实验，看看当你让那个有机体或其他有机体继续移动时会发生什么，我相信，我认为是那个有机体，但其他有机体继续移动。
It seems like there's feedback from the process of moving the musculature, and it could be neuromuscular in origin, it could be hormonal in origin.
似乎有来自肌肉组织移动过程的反馈，它可能起源于神经肌肉，也可能起源于荷尔蒙。
I don't think we know that it comes from muscle, but there's something about the requirement for movement that signals to the brain that it needs to continue to exist, and not just the motor portions of the brain, or the portions of the brain controlling motor activity, but that the body may supply chemical or other types of feedback to the brain that if it's moving and continues to move, that the brain needs to continue to be robust.
我不认为我们知道它来自肌肉，但有一些关于运动的需求向大脑发出信号，表明它需要继续存在，而不仅仅是大脑的运动部分或控制运动活动的大脑部分，而是身体可能向大脑提供化学或其他类型的反馈，如果它在运动并继续运动，大脑需要继续保持强健。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which I find very interesting-
我觉得很有趣——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because few things, to me, explain how movement to the body would signal vitality of the brain, aside from hormone-
因为对我来说，除了激素之外，几乎没有什么可以解释身体的运动如何表明大脑的活力——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
borne factors.
承载因素。
But it kind of makes sense, right?
但这有点道理，对吧？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Continuing to move the body-
继续移动身体——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is essential for keeping the brain healthy.
对于保持大脑健康至关重要。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
And exercise interventions, there's thousands of studies that show that exercise is beneficial, cardiovascular, but also other exercise.
还有运动干预，有成千上万的研究表明运动是有益的，心血管运动，还有其他运动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Now it seems everyone's excited about resistance training.
现在似乎每个人都对阻力训练感到兴奋。
I think both is clearly the answer.
我认为两者都是明确的答案。
You look good.
你看起来不错。
You're not in your 80s, but-
你还不到80多岁，但是-
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
I might be
我可能是
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
do you exercise?
你锻炼吗？
Right.
正确的。
Yeah, that would be impressive.
是的，那会令人印象深刻。
What is your exercise regimen?
你的锻炼计划是什么？
People will want to know.
人们会想知道。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I run.
我跑。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
I like running outdoors.
我喜欢在户外跑步。
I like the sun.
我喜欢阳光。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
I try to get two runs, 5 to 10K.
我尝试跑两次，5 到 10K。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Per week?
每周？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
That's the main exercise I do.
这是我做的主要练习。
I do some Pilates in the morning.
我早上做一些普拉提运动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm struck by how quickly the body degrades after an injury, especially if that injury occurs after age 60.
我对受伤后身体退化的速度感到惊讶，特别是如果受伤发生在 60 岁之后。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When we are injured as kids, we heal up
当我们小时候受伤时，我们会痊愈
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's amazing, right?
太神奇了，对吧？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Kids getting cuts-
孩子们被削减——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and they're just like, "What happened?" It's just they heal right up.
他们只是想，“发生了什么事？”只是他们很快就痊愈了。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do we know why we heal more quickly as kids than as adults?
我们知道为什么我们小时候比成年人恢复得更快吗？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
We do know that the immune system ages like everything, and it has this bias that it goes from a more specific response to a non-specific response, and that is often associated with inflammation.
我们确实知道，免疫系统会像所有东西一样老化，并且它有这样的偏差，即它从更特异性的反应转变为非特异性反应，这通常与炎症有关。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
So it's possible that part of it is that if you have a wound, there's too much of an inflammatory response and less of a healing response.
因此，部分原因可能是，如果你有伤口，就会产生过多的炎症反应，而愈合反应则较少。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
But we also know from aging organisms that if you have a cut, there's proteins in the extracellular matrix, like collagens and things like that, that are often overproduced, and they may interfere with a quick healing response.
但我们也从衰老的有机体中知道，如果你有伤口，细胞外基质中的蛋白质，如胶原蛋白之类的东西，通常会产生过量，它们可能会干扰快速愈合反应。
So I think everything is a little bit out of tune, and that might be the reason, but it's not really something I would know the details.
所以我认为一切都有点不协调，这可能是原因，但我真的不知道细节。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've always been fascinated by the fact that if we get a cut on the surface of our body, that it may or may not heal with a scar.
我一直着迷于这样一个事实：如果我们身体表面被割伤，它可能会或可能不会留下疤痕。
But If we get a cut on the inside of our mouth, which is loaded-
但如果我们的嘴内侧被割伤，那里面就充满了——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with bacteria-
与细菌-
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and warm and moist-
又温暖又湿润——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and in contact with the outside world-
以及与外界的联系——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
all day long-
一整天-
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it tends to heal with either zero or much less of a scar.
它往往会在愈合时留下零或更少的疤痕。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There has to be something-
一定有什么东西——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
That's true.
确实如此。
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the mouth-
在嘴里——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Fascinating.
令人着迷。
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that's pro-healing.
那是有利于治愈的。
And I believe people are studying this-
我相信人们正在研究这个——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but someone's got to figure this out.
但必须有人解决这个问题。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It's true.
这是真的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It could be saliva.
可能是唾液。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wild, right?
狂野吧？
The rate of healing, I know there's a lot of blood supply, but there's also a lot of blood supply to the nose and to the hands, and there's scars form on the hands and on the nose.
愈合速度，我知道有很多血液供应，但是鼻子和手上也有很多血液供应，手上和鼻子上都形成了疤痕。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It's also scarring in babies, right, may not leave, or a cut in a baby may not leave any trace.
婴儿身上也会留下疤痕，对吧，可能不会留下，或者婴儿身上的伤口可能不会留下任何痕迹。
But-
但是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
...
...
the same type of wound in an older person may leave a scar for the rest of their life.
老年人身上相同类型的伤口可能会留下终生的疤痕。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So how do we move past correlation and to really understand causative stuff?
那么我们如何超越相关性并真正理解因果关系呢？
So we'll get back to lifestyle factors, but it's so very clear from the animal studies and from the human studies that you described that there's something in young blood or things in young blood-
所以我们会回到生活方式因素，但是从你所描述的动物研究和人类研究中可以清楚地看出，年轻的血液中有一些东西，或者年轻的血液中有一些东西——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that are pro-rejuvenation for the brain and other tissues.
有助于大脑和其他组织的年轻化。
How do we get to a real pro-longevity molecule medication treatment?
我们如何获得真正的长寿分子药物治疗？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Or pro-health maybe more, right?
或者也许更多的是支持健康，对吧？
I think most people in the field are not really interested in extending lifespan-
我认为该领域的大多数人对延长寿命并不真正感兴趣-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
...
...
which would be longevity, but health span.
这将是长寿，但健康跨度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
And we talked about this before, right?
我们之前讨论过这个，对吧？
That you try to maintain the function of your organs until you die, so that your brain would still be functioning, you're cognitively intact, all your organs would still be functioned relatively well, and then you fall asleep and that's the end of your life.
你努力维持你的器官的功能直到你死，这样你的大脑仍然在运作，你的认知完好，你的所有器官仍然可以相对良好地运作，然后你睡着了，那就是你生命的终结。
And not necessarily extending lifespan, as you said, it could be that we extend lifespan and you just have 10 more miserable years.
而且不一定是延长寿命，就像你说的，可能是我们延长了寿命，你却又多了10年的悲惨岁月。
That certainly nobody would want that, right?
那肯定没人会想要这样，对吧？
But I think to get to causation, we need these types of experiments, physiological experiments in animal models first to isolate individual factors and then test them on an individual basis with very rigorous methods, which we can do and say, "Okay, this factor has the capacity to maintain, for example, brain function in the mouse." And then we have to test it in humans and do it in a careful, clinically controlled trial where people are blinded, whether they got the treatment or not, and do a big enough study that we can say, "Okay, this truly works," and then we have a drug.
但我认为为了找到因果关系，我们需要这些类型的实验，首先在动物模型中进行生理实验来分离个体因素，然后用非常严格的方法在个体基础上测试它们，我们可以这样做并说，“好吧，这个因素有能力维持，例如，小鼠的大脑功能。”然后我们必须在人体上进行测试，并进行仔细的临床对照试验，让人们失明，无论他们是否接受治疗，并进行足够大的研究，我们可以说，“好吧，这确实有效”，然后我们就有了一种药物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How close are we to the clinical trial?
我们距离临床试验还有多远？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
There are different molecules.
有不同的分子。
Klotho is actually another one.
Klotho实际上是另一种。
It's this protein that has been described to have beneficial effects on multiple different organs.
据描述，这种蛋白质对多种不同的器官具有有益的作用。
The biology, again, not exactly clear.
生物学又不完全清楚。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
K-L-O-T-H-O, Klotho.
K-L-O-T-H-O，克洛托。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
That's right.
没错。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
And there's companies trying to move this into humans, into human trials.
有些公司试图将其转移到人类身上，进行人体试验。
Some of these other factors, I think there are companies are trying or inhibiting detrimental factors.
其中一些其他因素，我认为有企业正在尝试或抑制有害因素。
And with individual clinical trials, you could get there in the next five, 10 years.
通过单独的临床试验，您可以在未来五年、十年内实现这一目标。
There may be something that has an effect.
可能有一些东西有影响。
I think we will not have a factor, an individual factor that just has this miracle effect on everything.
我认为我们不会有一个因素、一个个人因素对一切事物产生这种奇迹般的影响。
This is very clear from the studies of young blood.
这一点从对年轻人血液的研究中可以清楚地看出。
It's many different factors, and they target different pathways, different cell types in different tissues.
它有许多不同的因素，它们针对不同的途径、不同组织中的不同细胞类型。
So you may have to decide for this organ, we need this treatment, for this organ, we need that treatment to optimize its function and keep it running at full capacity until you're 100 years old.
所以你可能必须决定这个器官，我们需要这种治疗，对于这个器官，我们需要这种治疗来优化它的功能并保持它满负荷运转，直到你100岁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm not suggesting anyone do this, but I do seem to hear now and again that people are taking Klotho already.
我并不是建议任何人这样做，但我似乎时常听说人们已经在服用 Klotho。
Not surprising.
并不奇怪。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People will-
人们会——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
get ahead of the curve-
领先一步-
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
so to speak.
可以这么说。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I also read people taking this GDF11.
我还读到有人服用 GDF11。
I don't know where they get it.
我不知道他们从哪里得到的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm guessing it's just Mexico and Central and South America, there are a lot of clinics that do this sort of thing.
我猜只有墨西哥和中南美洲才有很多诊所做这种事情。
I will put out a true story, cautionary note.
我会讲一个真实的故事，作为警告。
A friend who, whenever people say I have a friend-
一个朋友，每当人们说我有一个朋友时——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but this is a medical doctor who had a back pain that was giving him a lot of issues, and he went to a stem cell clinic in Mexico, got an injection of stem cells into a spinal disc, which my neurosurgeon friends tell me is a terrible idea.
但这是一位医生，他的背痛给他带来了很多问题，他去了墨西哥的一家干细胞诊所，将干细胞注射到椎间盘中，我的神经外科医生朋友告诉我这是一个糟糕的主意。
It turns out the disc cannot accept cellular injections.
事实证明，椎间盘无法接受细胞注射。
A chair of neurosurgery-
神经外科椅子-
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
told me that.
告诉我的。
So you can come at me if you want, folks, but he's the chair of neurosurgery at a prominent medical school.
所以朋友们，如果你愿意的话可以来找我，但他是一所著名医学院的神经外科主任。
So the disc cannot accept direct injections of foreign cells.
因此椎间盘不能接受外来细胞的直接注射。
Anyway, this guy, a different guy, different MD, went and got this injection and ended up with an egg-sized infection that left him paralyzed.
不管怎样，这个人，一个不同的人，不同的医学博士，去接受了注射，最终出现了鸡蛋大小的感染，导致他瘫痪。
He was fortunate enough to be airlifted to a certain clinic in the United States, and told he was, "That's it.
他很幸运地被空运到美国的一家诊所，并告诉他，“就是这样。
You're done.
你完成了。
We're going to have to just sever your spinal cord." He was taken to another clinic where fortunately they were able to excise this infection, and he's mobile today.
我们只能切断你的脊髓。”他被带到另一家诊所，幸运的是他们能够切除这种感染，而且他今天可以活动了。
He will tell you, and I'll tell you, that you have to be very careful getting injections of cells in anywhere, but the regulations out of country often are not as stringent And I tell that story because a number of people are excited about stem cells, they're excited about these technologies, but it really can be quite dangerous.
他会告诉你，我也会告诉你，在任何地方注射细胞都必须非常小心，但国外的法规通常没有那么严格。我讲这个故事是因为很多人对干细胞感到兴奋，他们对这些技术感到兴奋，但这确实可能非常危险。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
And again, this is what we discussed earlier, this experience that we have in the medical field that you really need to test something in people in a very controlled fashion, very carefully with the dose, and then test it in a blinded fashion ideally, so that you know it really works and it's safe.
再说一遍，这就是我们之前讨论过的，我们在医学领域的经验是，你确实需要以非常受控的方式，非常仔细地在剂量上测试某些东西，然后理想地以盲法进行测试，这样你就知道它确实有效并且安全。
And what you mentioned earlier with stem cells, there are no such treatments that have been tested rigorously.
你之前提到的干细胞疗法，目前还没有经过严格测试的治疗方法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
And for many of these other factors, they work in some animal models.
对于许多其他因素，它们在某些动物模型中起作用。
There are some mouse studies that showed they might have an effect, but you cannot translate that to humans.
有一些小鼠研究表明它们可能有效果，但你不能将其转化为人类。
It's just a long road.
这只是一条漫长的路。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
And I would be extremely cautious to take anything that is not really prescribed to you from a clinician that you trust.
我会非常谨慎地接受任何不是您信任的临床医生真正给您开的处方的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
By way of contrast, platelet-rich plasma, PRP-
相比之下，富含血小板的血浆，PRP-
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is approved by the FDA.
已获得 FDA 批准。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People who are undergoing fertility treatments will get it injected into their ovary.
正在接受生育治疗的人会将其注射到卵巢中。
People are getting PRP injected into their shoulders, their knees, their whatever.
人们将 PRP 注射到肩膀、膝盖等部位。
I'm not trying to be disparaging of this.
我并不是想贬低这一点。
It is FDA approved.
它已获得 FDA 批准。
To my knowledge, platelet-rich plasma does not contain stem cells.
据我所知，富含血小板的血浆不含干细胞。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
That's correct.
这是正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it seems to be beneficial enough and safe enough that the FDA has approved it.
但它似乎足够有益且足够安全，以至于 FDA 已经批准了它。
What is the deal with platelet-rich plasma?
富含血小板的血浆有何作用？
What has it been shown to be actually useful for?
它被证明有什么实际用途？
Because just because something is allowed for one indication and is used broadly for a bunch of things doesn't mean that there's evidence that it works for all those things.
因为仅仅因为某种东西被允许用于一种指示并被广泛用于一堆事情并不意味着有证据表明它适用于所有这些事情。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
So platelet-rich plasma has these platelets in there that are full of growth factors.
因此，富含血小板的血浆中含有富含生长因子的血小板。
They have these granules that help in wound healing as a primary function, and somehow that seems to be beneficial in sports injuries, it's often given.
它们的主要功能是帮助伤口愈合，并且经常使用，这似乎对运动损伤有益。
And as far as I know, I think it's from your own blood.
据我所知，我认为它来自你自己的血液。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
You concentrate these platelets, and then they release these factors.
你浓缩这些血小板，然后它们释放这些因子。
So you may have a massive load of growth factors that help you heal these various tissues that you mentioned.
因此，您可能拥有大量的生长因子，可以帮助您治愈您提到的各种组织。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I haven't tried it, but I know people who have and reported some positive effect.
我还没有尝试过，但我知道有人尝试过并报告了一些积极的效果。
I've heard also a lot about exosomes, and there are some clinics, I believe, where I think exosomes are FDA approved as a treatment.
我也听说过很多关于外泌体的信息，我相信在一些诊所，我认为外泌体已被 FDA 批准作为一种治疗方法。
What are exosomes and what have they been shown to be useful for in studies and/or clinical?
什么是外泌体以及它们在研究和/或临床中的用途是什么？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
I don't know in clinical studies how they're used, but cells can release sort of little packages of material that is filled with proteins, but there's also RNA molecules in there, lipids, metabolites.
我不知道它们在临床研究中是如何使用的，但细胞可以释放出一些小包的材料，里面充满了蛋白质，但里面也有 RNA 分子、脂质、代谢物。
And some cells do this all the time.
有些细胞一直这样做。
Cancer cells, for example, do it, but also some immune cells have a very active release of these little packages, vesicles we call them, that are filled with, again, all these different molecules.
例如，癌细胞会这样做，但一些免疫细胞也会非常活跃地释放这些小包裹，我们称之为囊泡，里面充满了所有这些不同的分子。
In the blood, you find large numbers of these exosomes, and that's where they're usually purified from.
在血液中，您会发现大量这些外泌体，它们通常是从血液中纯化出来的。
Different cells have different cargo in these vesicles, and it seems that they function to some extent to deliver information from one cell to another.
不同的细胞在这些囊泡中具有不同的货物，它们似乎在某种程度上发挥着将信息从一个细胞传递到另一个细胞的作用。
It's still a very new field, but people explore whether they can be used for treatment purposes, but also for diagnostic purposes.
这仍然是一个非常新的领域，但人们探索它们是否可以用于治疗目的，也可以用于诊断目的。
Do they tell you something about a specific organ or a tumor that is developing?
它们是否告诉您有关特定器官或正在形成的肿瘤的信息？
So when we measure these proteins that we talked about earlier in the blood, we actually measure what's in the exosomes also.
因此，当我们测量血液中我们之前谈到的这些蛋白质时，我们实际上也测量了外泌体中的蛋白质。
So these exosomes, they float basically like immune cells.
所以这些外泌体基本上像免疫细胞一样漂浮。
They float in the blood, and we open them up and we measure what's inside.
它们漂浮在血液中，我们将它们打开并测量里面的成分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We should probably talk about some of the things that damage vitality and longevity.
我们或许应该谈谈一些损害活力和长寿的事情。
Accident and injury aside, we know that smoking, especially nicotine, damages DNA, increases inflammation, and will shorten your life.
撇开事故和伤害不谈，我们知道吸烟，尤其是尼古丁，会损害 DNA，增加炎症，并会缩短您的寿命。
I don't think there's any debate about that.
我认为对此没有任何争论。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
But what about some of the other things that might produce low-level DNA damage?
但其他一些可能产生低水平 DNA 损伤的因素又如何呢？
In particular, these days I'm very interested in EMFs.
特别是，这些天我对电磁场非常感兴趣。
I don't actually believe that the low levels of EMFs that are present in most technologies are damaging in the acute way that being near them is going to harm you.
我实际上并不相信大多数技术中存在的低水平电磁场会造成严重的破坏，以至于靠近它们会对您造成伤害。
But there is the idea that things can be cumulative, right?
但有一个想法，事情可以累积，对吗？
I get one X-ray every few years when I go to the dentist, but there's a reason the technician runs behind a-
当我去看牙医时，我每隔几年都会拍一次 X 光片，但技术人员落后是有原因的——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the wall.
墙。
He or she doesn't want to be exposed to that on a daily basis.
他或她不想每天都接触到这种情况。
So how do we feel about things that at a low dose don't damage DNA, or mutate proteins either, but that if we are exposed to them over a lot of time could very well do that?
那么，对于低剂量不会损害 DNA 或使蛋白质突变，但如果我们长时间接触它们很可能会造成这种情况的物质，我们有何感想呢？
What are your thoughts on this?
您对此有何看法？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
A very difficult question.
一个非常困难的问题。
You could ask the same question about any chemical that we invent and we put into food or we get exposed to, right?
对于我们发明的、放入食物中或接触到的任何化学物质，你都可以问同样的问题，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
The plastic.
塑料。
We drink hot stuff out of a cup that is coated with plastic and we're full of plastic.
我们用涂有塑料的杯子喝热的东西，而且我们体内充满了塑料。
How is that going to change our lifespan?
这将如何改变我们的寿命？
It hasn't in a measurable way so far, right?
到目前为止还没有以可测量的方式，对吗？
But we don't know what's going to happen in 20, 30 years, or if people synthesize a compound that is detrimental, that it doesn't look detrimental, it has been tested and is safe, but as you said, if it accumulates maybe, or in combination with other stuff, it may be detrimental.
但我们不知道20、30年后会发生什么，或者如果人们合成一种有害的化合物，它看起来并不有害，它已经过测试并且是安全的，但正如你所说，如果它可能积累，或者与其他东西结合，它可能是有害的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think about this from time to time, and I wonder about what's in my environment that I can easily control.
我时常思考这个问题，我想知道我的环境中有什么是我可以轻松控制的。
I try not to drink out of plastic.
我尽量不喝塑料制品。
I try and drink out of cans that don't have BPAs and things like that if I can.
如果可以的话，我会尝试用不含 BPA 之类的罐装饮料。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah, if you go down that route, it drives you crazy, and you could sort of not do anything anymore or not eat anything.
是的，如果你沿着这条路走下去，它会让你发疯，你可能会不再做任何事情或不吃任何东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, it's getting harder nowadays-
唉，现在越来越难了——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
It gets hard
变得很难
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to live a clean life.
过上干净的生活。
How long were you in Switzerland before you came to the States?
您来美国之前在瑞士呆了多久？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
I was 26.
那年我26岁。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You were weaned in a very clean environment.
您是在一个非常干净的环境中断奶的。
That's not just a stereotype about-
这不仅仅是一个刻板印象——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the Swiss, meaning things are, yes, very tidy and clean.
瑞士人，意思是东西非常整洁和干净。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Right.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The streets are remarkably clean.
街道非常干净。
You could drink out of the lake in Zurich, right?
你可以喝苏黎世湖里的水，对吧？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
That's right.
没错。
Yeah.
是的。
Maybe not the lake, but-
也许不是湖，但是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
...
...
there are still fountains with groundwater where you can drink in any village-
任何一个村庄仍然有地下水源可以饮用-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
...
...
basically, yeah.
基本上，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
If you're lucky enough to grow up in a place where the tap water is clean-
如果你足够幸运，生长在一个自来水干净的地方——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the food tends to be pretty devoid of dyes and preservatives, and your home is centered around eating mostly whole foods.
这些食物往往不含染料和防腐剂，而且您的家主要以吃天然食品为中心。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
And fresh.
而且新鲜。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Foods that you cook.
你煮的食物。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Freshly prepared.
新鲜准备的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fresh fruits and vegetables-
新鲜水果和蔬菜——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or freshly prepared.
或新鲜准备的。
Right.
正确的。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Right.
对。
Exactly.
确切地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Even desserts that are fresh-
连甜点都是新鲜的——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that are prepared-
那些已经准备好的——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Right.
对。
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as opposed to a lot of packaged foods.
与许多包装食品相反。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It seems that that's a far and away different experience than most-
看来这与大多数人的经历截然不同——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
certainly Americans-
当然是美国人——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
would get nowadays.
如今会得到。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Right.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
And you wonder what the effect of that is going to be.
你想知道这会产生什么效果。
We simply don't know.
我们根本不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, we don't know.
是的，我们不知道。
And I know now there's a big attack on food dyes as the thing, and there's no smoking gun data on any of those.
我知道现在对食用染料的攻击很大，而且这些都没有确凿的数据。
But, yeah, I think the cumulative effects of things are worth considering, I think, for most people.
但是，是的，我认为对于大多数人来说，事情的累积影响值得考虑。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
I try not to think too much about it.
我尽量不去想太多。
But I also...
但我也...
Growing up in an environment where we had a big vegetable garden.
我们在一个有大菜园的环境中长大。
I have a vegetable garden.
我有一个菜园。
I have lots of fruit trees and-
我有很多果树而且-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
...
...
try to get stuff out of my own garden.
尝试从我自己的花园里拿东西。
That's a luxury, of course, for a lot of people.
当然，对于很多人来说，这是一种奢侈。
But as you said, you can also buy fresh fruit.
但正如你所说，你也可以买新鲜水果。
It's more work, right?
这是更多的工作，对吧？
It's more work than just buying a ready-made food, but you know what you're cooking and what's in there.
这比仅仅购买现成的食物需要更多的工作，但你知道你在做什么以及里面有什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm fascinated these days by the data on organic versus non-organic fruits and vegetables.
这些天我对有机水果和蔬菜与非有机水果和蔬菜的数据很着迷。
I spend the extra money on organic, but the more I look into it, the more you find that the differences aren't that great.
我把额外的钱花在有机产品上，但我越深入研究，你就越发现差异并没有那么大。
Now, taste can be different, and ideally, you're sourcing from local farms.
现在，口味可能会有所不同，理想情况下，您从当地农场采购。
But I have a friend-- Actually, he'll be okay with me saying this.
但我有一个朋友——事实上，他不会介意我这么说。
He's a physician, Dr. Teo Soleymani.
他是一名医生，Teo Soleymani 博士。
He's a derm oncologist whose son ran an experiment for his school project, looking at the differences between organic and non-organic fruits and vegetables in terms of what contaminants and things are on them, pesticides, et cetera, and found, this is one kid's study, but essentially no significant differences in that particular set of batches of fruits and vegetables.
他是一名皮肤肿瘤学家，他的儿子为他的学校项目进行了一项实验，研究有机和非有机水果和蔬菜之间的污染物和物质、农药等方面的差异，结果发现，这是一个孩子的研究，但该特定批次的水果和蔬菜基本上没有显着差异。
And so that is, I would say, reassuring on the one hand because it means that people who can't afford organic will probably be doing about as well as people who can.
因此，我想说，一方面令人放心，因为这意味着买不起有机食品的人可能会和买得起有机食品的人一样过得很好。
But I think if you can grow your own or access from local farms, surely it's cleaner.
但我认为，如果你可以自己种植或从当地农场获取，肯定会更清洁。
The highest rates of endocrine disruptors are found in rural areas.
农村地区的内分泌干扰物发生率最高。
I always thought that being in a big city was the most dangerous for your lungs and endocrine health, and we had Shanna Swan on the podcast, serious researcher in this area, and she said, no. If you live in an area where they're spraying crops-
我一直认为住在大城市对你的肺部和内分泌健康来说是最危险的，我们的播客中有莎娜·斯旺（Shanna Swan），她是这个领域的认真研究人员，她说，不。如果你住在一个正在喷洒农作物的地区-
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
cancer risk-
癌症风险——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
endocrine disruption.
内分泌干扰。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's very serious.
这是非常严重的。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Also association with Parkinson's disease and-
还与帕金森病有关，并且-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
...
...
yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。
Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.
去年，在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我成为了 Function 成员。
Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health.
Function 提供 100 多项高级实验室测试，为您提供整个身体健康状况的关键快照。
This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more.
此快照为您提供有关心脏健康、激素健康、免疫功能、营养水平等方面的见解。
They've also recently added tests for toxins, such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics, and tests for PFAS or forever chemicals.
他们最近还增加了毒素测试，例如有害塑料中的 BPA 暴露，以及 PFAS 或永久化学物质的测试。
Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas.
Function 不仅提供对您的身心健康至关重要的 100 多种生物标记物的测试，而且还分析这些结果并提供相关领域专家的顶级医生的见解。
For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood.
例如，在我第一次使用 Function 进行测试时，我发现我的血液中汞含量升高。
Function not only helped me detect that but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, N-acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification.
功能不仅帮助我发现了这一点，还提供了如何最好地降低汞含量的见解，其中包括限制我的金枪鱼消费，我一直在吃大量金枪鱼，同时还努力多吃绿叶蔬菜并补充 NAC、N-乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都可以支持谷胱甘肽的产生和解毒。
And I should say, by taking a second Function test, that approach worked.
我应该说，通过进行第二次功能测试，这种方法奏效了。
Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important.
全面的血液检测至关重要。
There's so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test.
有很多与您的心理和身体健康相关的事情只能通过血液检查来检测。
The problem is blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated.
问题是血液检测一直非常昂贵且复杂。
In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost.
相比之下，Function 的简单性和成本水平给我留下了深刻的印象。
It is very affordable.
这是非常实惠的。
As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.
因此，我决定加入他们的科学顾问委员会，我很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。
If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Function，可以访问 functionhealth.com/huberman。
Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman Podcast listeners.
Function 目前有超过 250,000 人的等候名单，但他们正在为 Huberman 播客听众提供早期访问服务。
Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.
同样，可以通过 functionhealth.com/huberman 提前访问 Function。
Well, as long as we're talking about food, we should talk about not eating.
好吧，只要我们谈论食物，我们就应该谈论不吃。
We should talk about fasting.
我们应该谈谈禁食。
So many studies now showing in worms, in mice, in monkeys, and perhaps even in humans, that sub-caloric intake for long periods of time or perhaps intermittent fasting, we can talk about how we define that, can extend life.
现在有很多研究表明，在线虫、小鼠、猴子甚至人类中，长时间摄入低热量或间歇性禁食，我们可以讨论如何定义它，可以延长寿命。
How is that thought to work?
这种想法如何发挥作用？
Is it the reduction in this mTOR, mammalian target of rapamycin?
是雷帕霉素哺乳动物靶标 mTOR 的减少吗？
Is it reduction in inflammation?
是不是炎症减轻了？
Is it clearing of senescent cells?
是清除衰老细胞吗？
Give us the overview and any specifics about intermittent fasting and Perhaps start by saying how you define intermittent fasting.
请向我们介绍一下间歇性禁食的概述和具体情况，也许首先要说明您如何定义间歇性禁食。
Is it daily or is it two, three days?
是每天还是两三天？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
I think to just answer that-
我想只回答这个问题——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
...
...
there is no definition.
没有定义。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
There is no definition.
没有定义。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
And the whole field is also a mess.
而整个场上也是一片狼藉。
It's, again, taking studies in mice, for example, and then translating them to humans.
例如，它再次对小鼠进行研究，然后将其转化为人类。
Their lifespan, their whole rhythm, their environment is so different from our environment, right?
他们的寿命，他们的整个节奏，他们的环境和我们的环境有很大的不同，对吗？
That to translate these is always a stretch.
翻译这些总是很困难。
And there's no clinical studies that show a clear benefit of fasting in humans.
并且没有临床研究表明禁食对人类有明显的好处。
And some studies in monkeys actually suggest that it's detrimental for monkeys to fast, for example.
例如，一些针对猴子的研究实际上表明，禁食对猴子来说是有害的。
They had more, I think, worse kidney function and things like that.
我认为他们的肾功能更差，诸如此类。
So overall, from animal studies, it's very clear that you activate sort of beneficial pathways.
总的来说，从动物研究来看，很明显你激活了某种有益的途径。
They're very diverse.
他们非常多样化。
Again, we can now use unbiased assessment of many different cell types in an organism at gene expression across thousands of genes, and we see that different cells respond in different ways, and you get functional improvements.
同样，我们现在可以对生物体中许多不同细胞类型的数千个基因的基因表达进行公正的评估，并且我们看到不同的细胞以不同的方式做出反应，并且您可以获得功能改进。
But they're very broad.
但它们的范围非常广泛。
They're, in part, reduced inflammation.
它们在一定程度上减少了炎症。
Other cells, you get benefits on their energy metabolism, protein turnover, how they handle sort of what we call the garbage that accumulates in cells.
其他细胞，你可以从它们的能量代谢、蛋白质周转、它们如何处理我们所说的细胞中积累的垃圾中获益。
Overall, from these animal studies, clearly benefits from reducing calorie intake.
总体而言，从这些动物研究来看，减少卡路里摄入量显然有好处。
Also less, what we call, oxidative damage.
我们所说的氧化损伤也较少。
So it's like you burn a fire, right?
所以这就像你燃烧了一把火，对吧？
And if that fire is really intense, you may cause more damage.
如果火势真的很猛，你可能会造成更大的损失。
But how you translate this really to tangible benefits in humans, I'm not sure.
但我不确定如何将其真正转化为人类的切实利益。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you practice intermittent fasting?
你练习间歇性禁食吗？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Rarely.
很少。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You like breakfast.
你喜欢吃早餐。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
I tried Longo's diet a few times, where I reduce calorie...
我尝试过隆戈的饮食法几次，我减少了卡路里......
Valter Longo, do you-
瓦尔特·隆戈，你——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm familiar with him.
我和他很熟悉。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's the contour of the diet?
饮食的轮廓是什么？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So it's mostly you switch to a ketogenic diet, so a fat-rich diet.
所以主要是你改用生酮饮食，即富含脂肪的饮食。
So your metabolism changes basically from a regular sort of glucose-driven diet to burning fat.
因此，您的新陈代谢基本上从常规的葡萄糖驱动饮食转变为燃烧脂肪。
And you feel that when you start to starve, that somehow it's almost like your body changes a little bit, and you get a bit more alert almost.
你会觉得，当你开始挨饿时，不知何故，你的身体几乎发生了一点变化，你几乎变得更加警觉。
And in a way, that makes sense, right?
从某种程度上来说，这是有道理的，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
If you think you're out there in the wild, whether you're an animal or a human being, if you don't have enough food, the last thing you want is that your brain doesn't work well.
如果你认为自己在野外，无论你是动物还是人类，如果你没有足够的食物，你最不想看到的就是你的大脑无法正常工作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
I imagine the catecholamines, dopamine-
我想象儿茶酚胺、多巴胺——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
norepinephrine and epinephrine increase.
去甲肾上腺素和肾上腺素增加。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
So you get more alert, right?
所以你会变得更加警觉，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're a little hangry.
你有点饿了。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Hangry, exactly.
亨格里，正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it.
明白了。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
But I'm not sure how long that lasts and how beneficial this is in the long run.
但我不确定这种情况会持续多久以及从长远来看这有多大好处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
But yeah, I've done it a few times.
但是，是的，我已经做过几次了。
You do one week.
你做一个星期。
You lower your calories, I think, down to 1,000 per day.
我想，你可以将卡路里摄入量降低到每天 1,000 卡路里。
So it's pretty brutal.
所以这是相当残酷的。
But only for five days, and then-
但只有五天，然后——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay
好的
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
...
...
you go back to normal, yeah.
你就恢复正常了，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know of a few people who've done long-term fasts, so three or four days with just water and electrolytes, maybe some ketones.
我知道有一些人进行了长期禁食，三四天只喝水和电解质，也许还有一些酮。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they were very overweight, carrying a lot of excess body fat, and when they returned to eating, claimed that their appetite was forever changed, in particular, the types of foods they were hungry for.
他们非常超重，体内有大量多余的脂肪，当他们恢复饮食时，声称他们的食欲永远改变了，特别是他们饥饿的食物类型。
And that's thought to be an effect on the gut microbiome, which then impacts the brain.
这被认为是对肠道微生物群的影响，进而影响大脑。
So there may be a place for those longer fasts, what do they call them?
那么，较长时间的禁食可能有一席之地，他们称之为什么？
Medically supervised fasts.
在医疗监督下禁食。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I generally just like caffeine, electrolytes, and water until about 10 or 11:00 a.m.
我通常只喜欢咖啡因、电解质和水，直到上午 10 点或 11:00 左右。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then I like to eat no later than-
然后我喜欢不迟于-
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah, I do that also, yeah
是的，我也这样做，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
nowadays, it's 7:00 p.m.
现在是晚上 7:00。
because I go to bed a little earlier.
因为我睡得早一点。
So is that intermittent fasting, or is that just being a busy person who wants to still sleep well and exercise?
那么，这是间歇性禁食，还是只是一个忙碌的人想要保持良好的睡眠和锻炼？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It is sort of a fast, right?
这有点快，对吧？
In English, we call it a break fast, right?
在英语中，我们称之为“早餐”，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
And it is 12 hours maybe where you have no food, and I think that probably triggers some metabolic activity that is different than if you continue to eat.
可能有 12 个小时你没有食物，我认为这可能会引发一些与继续进食不同的代谢活动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
I think the worst is probably for the body to eat all the time.
我想对身体来说最糟糕的可能就是一直在吃东西。
Like, a lot of people snack the whole day.
就像很多人整天吃零食一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
That's not how we evolved, right?
我们不是这样进化的，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
We evolved being starved on a regular basis, but is that a good thing or a bad thing?
我们在进化过程中经常挨饿，但这是好事还是坏事呢？
For sure, our body is used to it.
当然，我们的身体已经习惯了。
That's a fair statement.
这是一个公平的说法。
It can handle it.
它可以处理它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I can't do the one meal per day thing because that meal ends up being so large that I get a lot of- ...
我不能每天只吃一顿饭，因为那顿饭吃得太多了，以至于我得到了很多——......
gastric discomfort, and then it disrupts my sleep.
胃部不适，然后它扰乱了我的睡眠。
And that's what I'd like to discuss also is sleep.
我想讨论的也是睡眠。
If there's been at least one, there's probably been three in my mind, but at least one major triumph in the public health discussion over the last, let's say, 10 years, and we can really, truly thank the great Matt Walker for this, who wrote "Why We Sleep." He was the first person to really say, "Hey, these are all the terrible things that are going to happen to you if you don't sleep enough."
如果至少有一个，我脑海中可能有三个，但在过去（比如说，十年）中，公共卫生讨论中至少取得了一项重大胜利，我们真的可以为此感谢伟大的马特·沃克，他写了《我们为什么睡觉》。他是第一个真正说：“嘿，如果你睡眠不足，这些都是会发生在你身上的可怕的事情。”
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And everyone needs different amounts.
而且每个人需要的量都不同。
I'm fine on six hours, so I don't believe everyone needs eight.
我六个小时就可以了，所以我不相信每个人都需要八个小时。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Seven, I'm great, but I'm fine on six, especially with a little nap here and there.
七岁，我很好，但六岁也很好，尤其是偶尔小睡一下。
But Matt got people scared, then he got people thinking about how to improve their sleep, and I and others have spent time on this.
但马特让人们感到害怕，然后他让人们思考如何改善他们的睡眠，我和其他人在这方面花了很多时间。
I think that's one of the great victories of public health communication around The best science.
我认为这是围绕最好的科学开展公共卫生传播的伟大胜利之一。
The other would be the importance of exercise, both cardiovascular and resistance training.
另一个是锻炼的重要性，包括心血管和阻力训练。
But during sleep, we know that there's this so-called glymphatic clearance, the clearance of junk from all the tissues, but in particular from the brain, that's facilitated by the glia, hence glymphatic.
但在睡眠期间，我们知道存在所谓的类淋巴清除，即清除所有组织中的垃圾，特别是大脑中的垃圾，这是由神经胶质细胞（即类淋巴）促进的。
Have you guys looked at lymph between young and old animals?
你们观察过年轻和年老动物之间的淋巴吗？
I'm fascinated by lymph.
我对淋巴很着迷。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
I have not.
我没有。
Yeah, that would be very interesting to do.
是的，那会很有趣。
We thought about it, but this-
我们考虑过，但是这个——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because it's the debris from the blood, right?
因为那是血液的碎片，对吗？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, it's the debris from the extracellular space-
嗯，这是来自细胞外空间的碎片-
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that doesn't get picked up by the blood.
不会被血液吸收。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's essentially the extra bad stuff, all the-
这本质上是额外的坏事，所有的-
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
ammonia and cellular debris and fragments.
氨和细胞碎片和碎片。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I would love for you guys to do an experiment looking at lymph-
我希望你们能做一个关于淋巴的实验-
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
from young and old-
从年轻到年长——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
animals.
动物。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
We looked at the cerebrospinal fluid, but it's of course different, and that, again, differs dramatically with age.
我们观察了脑脊液，但它当然是不同的，而且随着年龄的增长，脑脊液也会有很大的不同。
The composition changes dramatically.
成分发生巨大变化。
And I had a fellow who was heroic enough or crazy enough to collect young CSF from animals, from mice.
我有一个足够英勇或足够疯狂的人从动物、老鼠身上收集年轻的脑脊液。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Tiny, little?
很小，很小吗？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
And then infuse it via a pump over a month into old animals, and she could show that you can regenerate the brain, improve cognitive function in these mice, and oligodendrocytes, these cells that wrap the connections between neurons, it's like they produce the plastic around the wire, if you will, they were the strongest target if we looked in an unbiased way.
然后通过泵将其注入年老动物体内一个月以上，她可以证明你可以再生大脑，改善这些小鼠的认知功能，以及少突胶质细胞，这些细胞包裹着神经元之间的连接，就像它们在电线周围产生塑料一样，如果你愿意的话，如果我们以公正的方式看待的话，它们是最强的目标。
And so she's studying that now in her own lab.
所以她现在正在自己的实验室里研究这个问题。
But it shows you, in another way, how a fluid changes from young to old, and the young fluid somehow has beneficial factors that benefit the old brain.
但它以另一种方式向你展示了一种液体如何从年轻到年老的变化，而年轻的液体在某种程度上具有对年老大脑有益的有益因素。
And so I wouldn't be surprised that there could be beneficial factor in the glymph or the lymphatics that might benefit an old organism.
因此，如果淋巴管或淋巴管中可能存在有益于旧有机体的有益因子，我不会感到惊讶。
We thought about it, but I think in mice, it's extremely difficult.
我们考虑过这个问题，但我认为在老鼠身上，这是极其困难的。
There's also the interstitial fluid itself-
还有组织液本身——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
...
...
that people have collected, but they usually collect it by infusing artificial spinal fluid and then you almost wash out what it's in there.
人们收集了这些东西，但他们通常通过注入人造脊髓液来收集它，然后你几乎洗掉了里面的东西。
People have used that in the neurotransmitter field, and also more recently to look at Aβ or-
人们已将其用于神经递质领域，最近还用于研究 Aβ 或-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
...
...
accumulation of protein deposits in the brain.
大脑中蛋白质沉积物的积累。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Why not just go straight to humans?
为什么不直接走向人类呢？
I feel like-
我觉得——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah, that's probably what you would have to do
是的，这可能就是你必须做的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I was at a random mouse lab for a long time.
我在一个随机的老鼠实验室待了很长时间。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yes.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I worked on so many different species-
我研究过很多不同的物种——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
including humans.
包括人类。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it seems like given the relatively equal expense of doing-
但考虑到这样做的费用相对相等——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
exploratory science in mice and humans, that unless there's a question you can only address in mice-
老鼠和人类的探索性科学，除非有一个问题只能在老鼠身上解决——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
why not just take CSF from young and old humans and-
为什么不直接从年轻人和老年人身上提取脑脊液，然后-
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Oh, yeah, that we have done.
哦，是的，我们已经做到了。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, okay.
哦，好吧。
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
CSF is no problem.
脑脊液没有问题。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So we measure proteins in the CSF, and again, thousands of proteins, and we ask, are there proteins that correlate with cognitive function, with resilience or decline?
因此，我们测量脑脊液中的蛋白质，再次测量数千种蛋白质，我们要问，是否存在与认知功能、恢复力或衰退相关的蛋白质？
What's really interesting is, so we did this in a completely unbiased way, you find proteins that go up and go down together with cognition, so that positively or negatively correlate, and almost all the top proteins are synaptic proteins.
真正有趣的是，所以我们以完全公正的方式做到了这一点，你会发现蛋白质随着认知一起上升和下降，因此呈正相关或负相关，并且几乎所有顶部蛋白质都是突触蛋白。
We then use the top two, the one that goes up the most and goes down the most, and made a ratio of the two.
然后，我们使用前两个，即上升最多和下降最多的一个，并计算两者的比率。
And that ratio is a very strong predictor for cognitive resilience or decline.
这个比率是认知弹性或衰退的一个非常有力的预测指标。
And what's scary is that ratio continues to change from early adulthood.
可怕的是，这个比例从成年早期开始持续发生变化。
So you get a continuous, basically, degradation of that signal, and we get a very prominent risk prediction between the top and the bottom quartile.
因此，你会得到该信号的连续、基本上的退化，并且我们在顶部和底部四分位数之间得到非常显着的风险预测。
And this is based on 3,000 individuals where we had CSF from.
这是基于我们感染过 CSF 的 3,000 人的数据。
And it's independent of pathological markers, so we also had people with Alzheimer's and Alzheimer's disease in there at different stages of disease.
而且它与病理标记物无关，因此我们还研究了处于不同疾病阶段的阿尔茨海默病患者和阿尔茨海默病患者。
So if you look for what is only predictive of cognitive function based on a memory test, we find these synaptic proteins are very strong predictors.
因此，如果您根据记忆测试寻找只能预测认知功能的东西，我们会发现这些突触蛋白是非常强的预测因子。
So again, suggesting that the composition change, and then you can ask, is this a reflection of the change, or is it actually driving the change?
再次强调，建议成分发生变化，然后你可以问，这是变化的反映，还是实际上推动了变化？
And it seems to be both again.
似乎又两者兼而有之。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's always tough to get to causality, but anytime I see a study that looks in a correlative way at which athletes live the longest-
找出因果关系总是很困难，但每当我看到一项研究以相关的方式看待运动员寿命最长时——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's very interesting, right?
很有趣，对吧？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have no desire to run a marathon.
我不想跑马拉松。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But if I knew that it was going to add 20 years to my life or 15 years, I might start-
但如果我知道这会让我的寿命延长 20 年或 15 年，我可能会开始——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
becoming a marathoner.
成为一名马拉松运动员。
But a recent study showed that it's the pole vaulters, I'm not going to get into that- ...
但最近的一项研究表明，这是撑杆跳运动员的问题，我不打算讨论这个——......
and the gymnasts and I think the high jumpers and the sprinters, so the fast-twitch muscle folks, they get a substantial longevity effect-
体操运动员，我认为跳高运动员和短跑运动员，所以快肌运动员，他们获得了显着的长寿效果-
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
five to eight years-
五到八年——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
on average-
平均而言-
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
more than their age-matched cohorts.
超过了他们的同龄人。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Oh, that's really interesting.
哦，这真的很有趣。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Even compared to other-
即使与其他相比——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
highly trained athletes.
训练有素的运动员。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I see a result like that, and then, of course, the reductionist scientist in me says, "Okay, so is it the running?
所以我看到了这样的结果，然后，当然，我内心的还原论科学家说：“好吧，那么这是跑步吗？
Is it the jumping?
是跳跃的吗？
Is it..." But then you think, like, "Oh, using the Weiss-Corey model, you could essentially look at the blood from-
是不是……”但是你会想，“哦，使用 Weiss-Corey 模型，你基本上可以观察来自——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
sprinters versus-
短跑运动员对-
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
marathoners.
马拉松运动员。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
I compare it, yeah.
我比较了一下，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And of course they're going to differ.
当然，它们会有所不同。
These are different people, after all.
毕竟，这些是不同的人。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very different lifestyles in a number of different ways.
以多种不同的方式呈现截然不同的生活方式。
But you have to kind of wonder, again, whether or not the feed-- I wonder whether the feedback signals from the body There's some feedback signal in the form of a chemical that says, okay, this body is moving fast, jumping, and doing explosive activity, essentially, on a regular basis, that supplies the brain with a cocktail of things, presumably, that keeps neurons healthy.
但你又得想知道，饲料是否——我想知道来自身体的反馈信号是否有某种化学物质形式的反馈信号，它说，好吧，这个身体正在快速移动，跳跃，并进行爆炸性活动，本质上是定期为大脑提供混合物，大概可以保持神经元的健康。
Keeps the oligodendrocytes proliferating.
保持少突胶质细胞增殖。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That make sure that you got plenty of myelin for those fast transmission signals.
这可以确保您有足够的髓磷脂来传输快速信号。
And to me, that's where the field of health span and lifespan, but especially health span, really needs to go, because otherwise, it's just like, pick the exercise you're going to do regularly.
对我来说，这就是健康寿命和寿命领域，尤其是健康寿命领域，真正需要去的地方，因为否则，就像选择你要定期进行的锻炼一样。
That's great.
太好了。
That's a great first step.
这是伟大的第一步。
But then ultimately, it really does become about quality of life.
但最终，它确实与生活质量有关。
So the importance of doing these kinds of studies, to me, is immense, because otherwise, it's just sort of like, well, you do a little cardio, you do a little of this, do a little of that, and I don't know.
因此，对我来说，进行此类研究的重要性是巨大的，因为否则，就像，嗯，你做一点有氧运动，你做一点这个，做一点那个，我不知道。
That's like saying, "Oh, you can get the same level of social connection in from social media as you can from in-person connection." They're two totally different landscapes.
这就像说，“哦，你可以从社交媒体中获得与从面对面的联系中获得相同水平的社交联系。”这是两种完全不同的风景。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So anyway, I'm struck by the idea that exercise is not one thing.
所以无论如何，我对锻炼不是一回事这一想法感到震惊。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that there are certain forms of exercise that are much more potent, which it means there are probably molecules associated with certain forms-
并且某些形式的锻炼效果更有效，这意味着可能存在与某些形式相关的分子-
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of exercise that are much more potent in terms of-
的锻炼在以下方面更有效-
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Right.
对。
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
brain function.
大脑功能。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah, that's very interesting.
是的，这很有趣。
So John Long at Stanford has a lab, and he looked at metabolites in the blood of sprinter dogs, horses that do races, and then also human sprinters.
斯坦福大学的约翰·朗（John Long）有一个实验室，他研究了短跑狗、赛马以及人类短跑运动员血液中的代谢物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
And he found this interesting modified amino acid that is conjugated to lactate, Lac-Phe, it's called.
他发现了这种有趣的修饰氨基酸，它与乳酸盐缀合，称为 Lac-Phe。
And that compound seems to spike with these extreme bursts of muscle activity.
这种化合物似乎会随着肌肉活动的极端爆发而激增。
And he could then show in animals that it's actually beneficial and mediates some of the beneficial effects.
然后他可以在动物身上证明它实际上是有益的，并能调节一些有益的影响。
He identified the receptor.
他鉴定出了受体。
So it's a really very exciting direction of research.
所以这确实是一个非常令人兴奋的研究方向。
But it speaks to what you're saying, that there's different ways, different forms of exercise, and they may have different effects, and they may all be beneficial, better than not doing anything, but they may have different effects, and you may be able to harness one or the other.
但这说明了你所说的，有不同的方式，不同形式的锻炼，它们可能有不同的效果，它们可能都是有益的，比什么都不做更好，但它们可能有不同的效果，你可以利用其中一种。
And also, some of us may benefit more from one or the other.
而且，我们中的一些人可能会从其中之一中受益更多。
It's extremely hard to do a rigorous clinical study on any of this, right?
对这些进行严格的临床研究是非常困难的，对吧？
Because obviously, if you exercise, you always know it, so you can't be blinded.
因为显然，如果你锻炼，你总是知道的，所以你不能被蒙蔽。
And if you hate it or if you love it, your brain is probably going to send very different signals, right?
如果你讨厌它或喜欢它，你的大脑可能会发出非常不同的信号，对吗？
I have friends who just hate exercise, and they never want to do it.
我有一些朋友就是讨厌锻炼，但他们从来不想锻炼。
So how are you going to tell them, "You should do this or that?"
那么你要如何告诉他们“你应该这样做或那样做”？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, if it buys you life.
好吧，如果它能给你带来生命的话。
Anyway, I'm fortunate that I've always loved exercise.
不管怎样，我很幸运，我一直热爱运动。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
I always liked it.
我一直很喜欢它。
Me too.
我也是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've always loved it.
我一直很喜欢它。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Me too.
我也是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I feel great going into it, I feel great during, and I feel after.
我开始时感觉很棒，期间也感觉很棒，之后也感觉很棒。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sometimes it's painful, but I always enjoy it.
有时很痛苦，但我总是很享受。
But I realize that not everyone feels that way.
但我意识到并不是每个人都有这种感觉。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Gets that reward, right.
得到那个奖励，对吧。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Our colleague, Robert Sapolsky, told me about a study where they have rodents run on a wheel-
我们的同事罗伯特·萨波尔斯基（Robert Sapolsky）告诉我一项研究，他们让啮齿类动物在轮子上奔跑——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
regularly, and rodents love to run on wheels-
经常，啮齿动物喜欢在轮子上奔跑——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as you know.
如你所知。
And they, of course, experience reductions in blood pressure, blood lipids improve, et cetera, after the exercise.
当然，运动后他们的血压会降低，血脂会改善，等等。
During the exercise and immediately after, there's inflammation, but you get the adaptation, they improve.
在锻炼期间和锻炼后不久，会有炎症，但你适应了，它们就会改善。
But if you tether the running of that animal, sort of like your parabiosis experiment.
但如果你拴住那只动物的奔跑，有点像你的联体共生实验。
If you tether the running of that animal to another animal that's trapped in a running wheel, it can't leave the running wheel, and it has to run when the other one runs.
如果你将那只动物的奔跑与另一只被困在跑轮中的动物拴在一起，它就无法离开跑轮，并且当另一只动物跑时它必须跑。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're doing the same exercise, and they're genetically identical animals.
它们做着同样的运动，而且它们是基因相同的动物。
And the one that's forced to run experiences long-term increases in blood pressure, markers of stress, and deficits in memory associated with hippocampal, not damage, but rewiring.
被迫跑步的人会经历血压长期升高、压力标志物以及与海马体相关的记忆缺陷，不是损伤，而是重新布线。
So you realize that the choice is big in all of this.
所以你意识到这一切的选择是很大的。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
That's, for me, running on a treadmill-
对我来说，那就是在跑步机上跑步——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
...
...
in a room versus outside.
在房间里与在外面。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm exactly the same way.
我也是这样。
Not to spin off into every study, but a lot of Stanford citations here.
并不是要深入到每项研究中，而是这里引用了很多斯坦福大学的文献。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Our colleague, Joe Parvizi-
我们的同事 Joe Parvizi-
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a neurosurgeon, did this amazing experiment where he stimulates, for other reasons, he landed in the anterior midcingulate cortex, and when he stimulates there, people feel as if there's some impending pressure on them, like they're driving into a storm, and they feel motivated.
一位神经外科医生做了这个令人惊奇的实验，由于其他原因，他刺激了前中扣带皮层，当他刺激那里时，人们感觉好像有一些迫在眉睫的压力，就像他们驶入风暴一样，他们感到有动力。
They feel the, subjectively, tenacity.
他们主观上感受到了坚韧。
And it turns out that the anterior cingulate cortex grows in people who successfully diet, who push through challenges in exercise-
事实证明，成功节食、克服运动挑战的人的前扣带皮层会生长——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and cognitive things.
和认知的东西。
So pushing ourselves, you can tell your friends-
所以逼迫自己，你可以告诉你的朋友——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that if you enjoy doing something, you actually get less benefit.
如果你喜欢做某事，你实际上得到的好处会更少。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah, maybe.
是的，也许吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you hate it, you get more benefit, but not if you're forced to do it.
如果你讨厌它，你会得到更多的好处，但如果你被迫这样做，那就不行了。
So electing to do things that you hate and doing them anyway-
所以选择做你讨厌的事情，但无论如何还是要做——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Electing to overcome it
选择克服它
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is where you get the double benefit.
这是您获得双重好处的地方。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So in any case, this is the brain structure associated with super-agers.
所以无论如何，这就是与超级老年人相关的大脑结构。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
If you motivate yourself to do a marathon, right, and you go through the torture.
如果你激励自己去跑马拉松，对吧，你就会经历折磨。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's right.
没错。
I think I'll sprint instead.
我想我会改为冲刺。
I now do this thing where I hop on the AirDyne bike, the one with the handles, and I'll go warm up a minute, and then I'll go hard for 20, 30 seconds, and then rest 10 seconds, and just repeat, and it's over in seven minutes.
现在，我会跳上 AirDyne 自行车（有把手的），热身一分钟，然后用力跑 20、30 秒，然后休息 10 秒，然后重复，七分钟内就结束了。
But it's amazing where the brain goes.
但大脑的去向却令人惊奇。
You're like, "I hate this.
你会说，“我讨厌这个。
I want to get off this thing." But afterwards, it feels pretty great.
我想摆脱这件事。”但事后，感觉非常棒。
Well, I would love for you guys to look at CSF or other factors in, let's just call it high intensity versus long endurance-type exercise.
好吧，我希望你们能够关注脑脊液或其他因素，我们将其称为高强度运动与长耐力型运动。
It's also hard to do in animals, but you can do it very easily in humans.
这在动物身上也很难做到，但在人类身上却很容易做到。
I'm trying to think about the ways that we can use lifestyle interventions until you come up with the magic pill.
我正在尝试思考如何使用生活方式干预措施，直到你想出灵丹妙药。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah And it's interesting that you say that.
是的，你这么说很有趣。
Jill Livingston and others, they have studied how lifestyle influences the development of dementia and Alzheimer's disease, and it's a dramatic component that you can influence, easier or not, right?
吉尔·利文斯顿（Jill Livingston）和其他人研究了生活方式如何影响痴呆症和阿尔茨海默病的发展，这是一个你可以影响的戏剧性组成部分，无论容易与否，对吧？
Some of them are very hard to get out of, but poverty is a risk, of course, childhood obesity, lower education, smoking, excessive alcohol use.
其中一些是很难摆脱的，但贫困是一种风险，当然，还有儿童肥胖、教育程度较低、吸烟、过度饮酒。
Many of these things that we know, they're good or bad.
我们知道许多事情，它们是好是坏。
If you optimize everything, your risk for dementia is much lower.
如果你优化一切，患痴呆症的风险就会低得多。
There's now countless studies that show that.
现在有无数的研究表明这一点。
So there are things that you can do, the lifestyle factors, right?
所以你可以做一些事情，生活方式因素，对吧？
And they're easier to do for some people than for others.
而且对于某些人来说，它们比其他人更容易做到。
But it's clear that there's incredible power in lifestyle and what we do.
但很明显，生活方式和我们所做的事情具有令人难以置信的力量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are you aware of any correlates to the exercise thing we were just talking about, whereby certain cognitive exercises can help us hold on to cognition?
您是否意识到与我们刚才谈论的锻炼有任何关联，某些认知锻炼可以帮助我们保持认知？
For instance, we've heard doing crossword puzzles or reading good books.
例如，我们听说过做填字游戏或阅读好书。
I think this is becoming increasingly important because it's so easy to have one's time sucked away on the internet or on social media nowadays, which requires essentially no work, right?
我认为这变得越来越重要，因为现在很容易在互联网或社交媒体上浪费时间，而这基本上不需要工作，对吗？
You just scroll and read.
您只需滚动并阅读。
Articles have become very brief.
文章变得非常简短。
Is there any known benefit of trying to tackle cognitive gymnastics?
尝试解决认知体操有什么已知的好处吗？
Is there any data?
有数据吗？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Not to my knowledge.
据我所知。
Unfortunately, the studies that looked in patients who already have cognitive impairment, and you try to give them sort of exercise and mental exercise, they don't do much, unfortunately.
不幸的是，在那些针对已经患有认知障碍的患者的研究中，你试图给他们进行一些锻炼和心理锻炼，但不幸的是，他们并没有多大作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
It's probably more complex.
这可能更复杂。
And you, of course, also have, again, what we discussed earlier with exercise, right?
当然，你也有我们之前讨论过的关于锻炼的内容，对吧？
Some people just love to be stimulated and they want to learn something new.
有些人只是喜欢受到刺激，他们想学习新东西。
Want to learn a new language or a new instrument, and their mind is already attuned to that, right?
想要学习一门新语言或一种新乐器，他们的思想已经适应了，对吗？
They crave for this.
他们渴望这个。
And for others, that might be much harder, and they may not benefit from it.
对于其他人来说，这可能要困难得多，而且他们可能无法从中受益。
But you're the neuroscientist.
但你是神经科学家。
What could you get out of something like that?
你能从这样的事情中得到什么？
And if somebody is really excited about doing any of these mental exercises versus it doesn't speak to them.
如果有人真的对做任何这些心理练习感到兴奋，那对他们来说并不重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I think that we should all find the things that we want to do enough that we would elect to do them, but that are challenging.
我认为我们都应该找到我们想做的足够多的事情，以至于我们会选择做它们，但这具有挑战性。
There are data coming out now showing that handwriting is very important to development of certain brain circuits.
现在有数据表明，书写对于某些大脑回路的发育非常重要。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's kind of a no surprise, but this is important for the younger generation who's no longer handwriting so much.
这并不奇怪，但这对于不再经常手写的年轻一代来说很重要。
The phrase "use it or lose it" makes perfect sense to me.
“用进废退”这句话对我来说非常有道理。
If you don't walk enough or run enough or cycle enough or do anything with your legs, eventually the neural systems that control your legs will atrophy, as will the muscles.
如果你走路不够、跑步不够、骑自行车不够或用腿做任何事情，最终控制你腿部的神经系统将会萎缩，肌肉也会萎缩。
We tend to think about the muscles-
我们往往会想到肌肉——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but we don't think about the neural control over the muscles.
但我们没有考虑神经对肌肉的控制。
So I think, since I'm 50 now, I think I make it a point to read at least, it's going to sound so paltry, but at least one page, and ideally one chapter of a book every day.
所以我想，既然我现在已经50岁了，我想我至少要读一本书，听起来很微不足道，但至少每天读一页，最好是读一章。
Sometimes it's just one page, but just with a book, with my phone out of the room And I do, and I read papers and things like that.
有时只是一页，但只是一本书，把我的手机放在房间外，我会读报纸和类似的东西。
But doing things that feel unnatural, but that I know I will benefit from when they're over.
但做一些感觉不自然的事情，但我知道当它们结束时我会从中受益。
There's such a deep feeling of satisfaction from having done that sort of thing.
做了这样的事情会有一种深深的满足感。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And for me, the higher intensity cardio is that I'd much rather jog than sprint, so I make it a point to sprint.
对我来说，更高强度的有氧运动是我更喜欢慢跑而不是冲刺，所以我把冲刺作为重点。
So I think maybe we should think about exercise and cognitive stuff the same way.
所以我认为也许我们应该以同样的方式思考锻炼和认知问题。
Who knows?
谁知道？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is there anything in Switzerland that they do that they don't do here in terms of food and exercise and lifestyle?
在饮食、锻炼和生活方式方面，有什么是他们在瑞士做但在瑞士不做的吗？
Because the Swiss are very healthy.
因为瑞士人非常健康。
The Swiss also, as I recall from something in "The Economist" a few years ago when I used to-- I no longer subscribe to them, but the highest caffeine intake in the world is the Swiss.
瑞士人也是如此，正如我几年前在《经济学人》中看到的那样——我不再订阅他们了，但世界上咖啡因摄入量最高的是瑞士人。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Really?
真的吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They drink so much caffeine.
他们喝了很多咖啡因。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Also chocolate.
还有巧克力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
They have chocolate.
他们有巧克力。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Chocolate and cheese.
巧克力和奶酪。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
And people eat a lot of it.
人们吃了很多。
Almost every day, I eat chocolate.
我几乎每天都吃巧克力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you?
你呢？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're making some people very happy.
你让一些人非常高兴。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
It's-- Yeah.
这是——是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I eat 100% chocolate.
我吃100%的巧克力。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
It's part of my diet.
这是我饮食的一部分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When?
什么时候？
When do you eat it?
你什么时候吃？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Usually with a coffee after lunch or so.
通常在午餐后喝咖啡。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
High in polyphenols.
多酚含量高。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And tasty.
而且好吃。
Yum.
嗯。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Very.
非常。
And tasty.
而且好吃。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Stimulates your brain, makes you happy.
刺激你的大脑，让你快乐。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I eat the raw or roasted cacao beans.
我吃生的或烤的可可豆。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because I like bitter things.
因为我喜欢苦的东西。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Those are good, too.
这些也都很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Those are a good punch.
这些都是一记好拳。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You own a winery.
你拥有一家酒庄。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
That's right.
没错。
The Rio Wine.
里约葡萄酒。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which runs counter to everything I understand about longevity.
这与我对长寿的理解背道而驰。
But it runs-
但它运行——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
No, it doesn't.
不，事实并非如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
All right.
好吧。
Here we go.
我们开始吧。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Educate me.
教育我。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Alcohol itself is probably not good for our body, right?
酒精本身可能对我们的身体没有好处，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Just pure alcohol.
只是纯酒精。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
But a lot of drinks are part of a social environment.
但很多饮料是社交环境的一部分。
And I think one of the major benefits that people have attributed to wine is the social aspects of it.
我认为人们认为葡萄酒的主要好处之一是它的社交方面。
Some people may drink a bottle of wine by themselves, but I think the majority, they have a meal together, and you share a bottle of wine.
有些人可能一个人喝一瓶酒，但我想大多数人，一起吃饭，你们分享一瓶酒。
And we talked about this earlier, how you dissociate one thing from another.
我们之前讨论过如何将一件事与另一件事分开。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
I think there's this complexity that you see, actually, in almost all studies that look at centenarians, where people lived the longest.
我认为，实际上，在几乎所有针对百岁老人的研究中，您都会看到这种复杂性，因为百岁老人的寿命最长。
One of the most Common aspect is that they're all very social.
最常见的方面之一是它们都非常社交。
They're not left alone when they're old.
当他们老了的时候，他们并不孤单。
They have a community, and they meet other people, right?
他们有一个社区，他们会遇到其他人，对吧？
And so I think that's part of the wine culture is really being social, being together.
所以我认为葡萄酒文化的一部分实际上是社交、在一起。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
The data on social connection and stress reduction are huge.
关于社交联系和减轻压力的数据是巨大的。
Yeah, I've gone on record saying that the data say zero alcohol better than any, two drinks per week is probably the upper limit for a non-alcoholic adult, after which I just say, "Make sure you're doing other things correctly." One thing that I want to be really clear on is, since I'm talking to someone originally from Switzerland, although you're a US citizen now, is that the United States has never had a history of healthy food or drinking habits.
是的，我已经公开表示，数据显示零酒精比任何酒精都好，每周喝两杯可能是不酗酒成年人的上限，之后我只是说，“确保你正确地做其他事情。”我想明确的一件事是，因为我正在和一个来自瑞士的人交谈，尽管你现在是美国公民，但美国从来没有健康饮食习惯的历史。
If you think about classic American cuisine, it's all unhealthy stuff.
如果你想想经典的美国菜，那都是不健康的东西。
Apple pie, french fries, hamburgers, hot dogs, pizza, which was originally not ours, right?
苹果派、炸薯条、汉堡包、热狗、披萨，本来就不是我们的吧？
And on and on, right?
不断地，对吧？
There's been a culture of volume and abundance, and kind of amusement park food-
这里有一种数量和丰富的文化，还有一种游乐园的食物——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
frankly.
坦白说。
And the same is true for drinking.
饮酒也是如此。
Certainly not speaking for everybody, but there's been a culture around alcohol in the United States of drinking a lot of beer or a lot of spirits.
当然并不代表所有人，但在美国有一种饮酒文化，即喝大量啤酒或烈酒。
Whereas I think in Europe, the food, including the desserts, have a tradition of nourishment, of social connection.
而我认为在欧洲，食物，包括甜点，都有营养和社交联系的传统。
And sure, we have bars in the United States, and people drink beer while they watch games and things like that, but I think sometimes that gets lost in the conversation, that the United States has never been a particularly healthy place, except for its level of engagement in sports and exercise until recently.
当然，我们在美国有酒吧，人们一边喝啤酒一边观看比赛之类的事情，但我认为有时人们会在谈话中忘记这一点，即美国从来都不是一个特别健康的地方，除了直到最近它对体育和锻炼的参与程度。
So I totally agree with what you're saying.
所以我完全同意你的说法。
If you're getting together with friends and having a couple drinks or something like that, that sounds entirely healthy.
如果你和朋友聚在一起喝几杯或者类似的东西，这听起来是完全健康的。
But the problem is that's usually not how it looks-
但问题是通常情况并非如此——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
certainly not on college campuses, but that's another thing.
当然不是在大学校园，但那是另一回事。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Well, excess, right?
嗯，多余，对吧？
Anything.
任何事物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Also with food, I eat any food.
还有食物，我吃任何食物。
You can eat any food, but you don't want to just eat one food.
你可以吃任何食物，但你不想只吃一种食物。
I eat french fries-
我吃炸薯条-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
...
...
or a burger.
或汉堡。
There's nothing wrong with it.
没有什么问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
But if that's your only diet, that's not good.
但如果这是你唯一的饮食习惯，那就不好了。
If you eat no fruit, that's probably not good.
如果你不吃水果，那可能不太好。
If you have no vegetables in your diet.
如果你的饮食中没有蔬菜。
And the same, I think, with drinks.
我想，饮料也是如此。
I have drinks, but I try not to get drunk every day, right?
我喝酒，但我每天都尽量不喝醉，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
So I think moderation is really, I think, the magic.
所以我认为适度确实是一种魔力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
I'm going to get a little wacky here.
我在这里会变得有点古怪。
Not woo wacky.
不求古怪。
There's some really interesting stories about improving health and vitality, maybe lifespan, with things that adjust blood flow.
有一些非常有趣的故事是关于通过调节血液流动的物质来改善健康和活力，甚至延长寿命。
So for instance, in the literature around qigong breathing, right?
比如说，在有关气功呼吸的文献中，对吗？
And there's a lot of different forms of this.
这有很多不同的形式。
But we can distill things down to the fact that vigorous inhales increase the heart rate.
但我们可以将事情归结为这样一个事实：剧烈吸气会增加心率。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Exhales, deliberate exhales, extended exhales, decrease the heart rate through-
呼气、刻意呼气、延长呼气，通过以下方式降低心率：
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
something called respiratory sinus arrhythmia.
一种叫做呼吸性窦性心律失常的疾病。
So in a number of cultures, they'll do qigong, tai chi, which is deliberate breathing, and movement, of course.
因此，在许多文化中，他们会练习气功、太极拳，当然，这是有意识的呼吸和运动。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the idea is that you're improving circulation, that it feeds the brain, in the language of these things, that it's feeding the brain nutrients, and it all makes perfect sense, given what you're saying.
这个想法是，你正在改善血液循环，它为大脑提供营养，用这些东西的语言来说，它为大脑提供营养，考虑到你所说的，这一切都是完全有道理的。
It's also interesting, I've been looking at how patterns of breathing change as people age and talking to people who work in hospitals, and there's actually a little bit of data around this.
这也很有趣，我一直在研究呼吸模式如何随着人们年龄的增长而变化，并与在医院工作的人交谈，实际上有一些关于这方面的数据。
As people get older and their cognitive function goes, they tend to become mouth breathers.
随着人们年龄的增长和认知功能的衰退，他们往往会变成用嘴呼吸的人。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
That's interesting.
这很有趣。
Yeah.
是的。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're having trouble oxygenating their brain.
他们的大脑供氧遇到困难。
Now, it could be the mouth breathing is the cause, or it could be reflective of something else.
现在，可能是用嘴呼吸造成的，也可能是其他原因造成的。
Kind of interesting to think about because the relationship between breathing and blood flow is an obvious and well-established one.
思考起来很有趣，因为呼吸和血流之间的关系是明显且确定的。
So there are all these things about the young blood versus old blood that might be independent of pure biochemistry of aging that could be controlled with-
因此，关于年轻血液与老年血液的所有这些因素可能与衰老的纯粹生物化学无关，可以通过以下方式控制：
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
lifestyle factors.
生活方式因素。
And we say exercise improves health span-
我们说运动可以改善健康寿命-
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but exercise increases breathing rate.
但运动会增加呼吸频率。
So are you at all interested in, I'm trying to get a bunch of studies going here, you can tell.
那么你是否有兴趣，我正试图在这里开展一系列研究，你可以看出来。
In people that do some sort of deliberate deep breathing, it doesn't have to be tai chi.
对于那些有意识地进行深呼吸的人来说，不一定非得是太极拳。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Would be super interesting.
会超级有趣的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because you're changing the chemistry of the blood.
因为你正在改变血液的化学成分。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
What we discussed earlier is this cause and effect, and really the way to show that something has an effect is you have a study where some people, you take their blood, they do an exercise, and then you take their blood again, and you look, does it change something?
我们之前讨论的是这个因果关系，真正证明某些东西有影响的方法是你有一个研究，你采集一些人的血液，他们做运动，然后你再次采集他们的血液，你看看，它会改变什么吗？
Very easy to do.
很容易做到。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can we do this experiment?
我们可以做这个实验吗？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because I ran a study-
因为我进行了一项研究——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
It just costs money
只是要花钱而已
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with David-
和大卫-
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
It just costs money.
只是要花钱。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Money we can get.
钱我们能拿到。
I'm not worried about that.
我对此并不担心。
David Spiegel and I ran a study on breathwork, but we didn't look at how different patterns of breathing change-
大卫·斯皮格尔和我进行了一项关于呼吸的研究，但我们没有研究不同的呼吸模式如何变化——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
blood chemistry.
血液化学。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah, that would be super interesting.
是的，那会非常有趣。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because these are things that people can do-
因为这些是人们可以做的事情——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
at any age.
在任何年龄。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they're zero cost.
而且它们是零成本的。
But we don't have mechanistic data.
但我们没有机械数据。
We just have, oh, people who do qigong or tai chi live a long time.
我们就是哦，练气功、打太极拳的人都活得很长。
But then there's so many variables.
但接下来还有很多变数。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're outdoors, they're moving, it's social.
他们在户外，他们在移动，这是社交活动。
And so the thing that concerns me about the health span longevity space, if you will, is that we keep going around the merry-go-round, and we keep going exercise, sleep, nutrition, social connection, sunlight, and don't smoke, drink in excess, play a contact sport where you hit your-- We just keep going around and around, and we need tools.
因此，如果你愿意的话，我对健康长寿空间感到担忧的是，我们继续绕着旋转木马转，我们继续锻炼、睡眠、营养、社交联系、阳光，并且不吸烟、酗酒、进行接触性运动，我们只是不停地转来转去，我们需要工具。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Right.
对。
So I think that's exactly what we recognized at Vero, where we want to have tailored interventions that you give very specific advice based on if your heart is showing accelerated aging, this is the exact exercise that will help you based on studies that we just discussed, right?
所以我认为这正是我们在 Vero 所认识到的，我们希望制定量身定制的干预措施，根据您的心脏是否出现加速老化的情况提供非常具体的建议，根据我们刚才讨论的研究，这正是对您有帮助的锻炼，对吗？
Where you say, "Okay, here we had 50 people who did this exercise and 50 who didn't or something different, and it had a clear benefit and made their heart younger or made their brain younger." That's really what I think we all want, right?
你会说，“好吧，我们有 50 个人做了这个练习，还有 50 个人没有做这个练习，或者做了一些不同的事情，它有明显的好处，让他们的心脏更年轻，或者让他们的大脑更年轻。”我认为这确实是我们都想要的，对吗？
Rather than these broad sort of, oh, live a healthy life.
而不是这些广泛的，哦，过健康的生活。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
How is that going to help you?
这对你有什么帮助？
You want really tailored advice and then also validating that it actually does something.
您需要真正量身定制的建议，然后还要验证它是否确实有效。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And this is not a promotional.
这不是促销。
I just learned about Vero today really.
我今天才真正了解到Vero。
I'd heard of it, but I'm learning in detail.
我听说过，但我正在详细学习。
So it's now a company that anyone can access these tools?
那么现在是一家任何人都可以访问这些工具的公司吗？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
We are live.
我们还活着。
It's currently a small number of clinics that we're working with, and we hope to grow and expand it quickly.
目前我们合作的诊所数量很少，我们希望能够迅速发展和扩大。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you measure your steps or make it a point to walk a lot each day or both?
您是否测量自己的步数或每天坚持走很多路，或者两者兼而有之？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
I measure my steps.
我测量我的步数。
I have a Garmin.
我有一台佳明。
I find it useful.
我觉得很有用。
I find also the sleep measurements really useful.
我发现睡眠测量也非常有用。
Talked about sleep earlier.
之前谈过睡眠。
It tells me how well I slept, how much deep sleep.
它告诉我我的睡眠质量如何，睡眠深度如何。
Yeah, I think that's useful.
是的，我认为这很有用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, it's wild.
是的，它很狂野。
Nowadays, people just accept, "Oh, yeah, we track our sleep," et cetera.
如今，人们只是接受“哦，是的，我们追踪我们的睡眠”等等。
I remember when I was a postdoc at Stanford in 2005 to 2010, people getting into quote unquote "wearables"
我记得 2005 年至 2010 年，当我在斯坦福大学做博士后时，人们开始引用“可穿戴设备”
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that's what they called then.
他们当时就是这么称呼的。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
And they didn't quite work yet.
而且他们还没有完全发挥作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, there was one graduate student in the neuroscience program, this woman, Rachel, who I think went to go work for a wearable company, and she had seven or eight different-
是的，有一位神经科学项目的研究生，这位女士，雷切尔，我认为她去了一家可穿戴公司工作，她有七八个不同的-
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
watches.
手表。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
This is like Mike Snyder.
这就像迈克·斯奈德。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
She was-
她是——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
At Stanford, yeah.
在斯坦福大学，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we had him on here, yeah.
我们让他在这里，是的。
And way ahead of the curve with all these wearables, and I remember thinking, "Who's going to wear all those watches?" And she said, "No, no. Eventually, it will all be condensed to one watch or maybe even just a small ringer device." And I thought, "All right, whatever." I've always been into health and wellness, but nah, they-- And sure enough, she was right.
在所有这些可穿戴设备方面遥遥领先，我记得我当时想：“谁会佩戴所有这些手表？”她说：“不，不。最终，这一切都会被压缩到一块手表上，甚至可能只是一个小型铃声设备上。”我想：“好吧，无论如何。”我一直很关注健康和保健，但是不，他们——果然，她是对的。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But far smarter than me.
但比我聪明得多。
I think we're going there.
我想我们要去那里。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think we're going to a place where soon many things will be measured.
我认为我们很快就会去一个可以衡量很多事情的地方。
I would love eyeglasses where the frames measure the amount of photons I get during the day to make sure I get sufficient sunlight.
我喜欢这样的眼镜，其镜框可以测量我白天获得的光子数量，以确保我获得足够的阳光。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
That's always something that I don't understand.
这始终是我不明白的事情。
There's a lot of people in this country who have shades, right?
这个国家有很多人戴着墨镜，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
They wear dark glasses all day long.
他们整天戴着墨镜。
This is so bad for your brain.
这对你的大脑非常不利。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And for your mental health.
为了您的心理健康。
We know-
我们知道——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah, exactly
是的，正是如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
80,000 plus subjects in this UK study, the brighter your days-
这项英国研究涉及 80,000 多个受试者，您的日子越光明 -
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
ideally from sunlight, but the brighter your days and the darker your nights, the less susceptible you are to every single mental health condition.
最好是阳光照射，但白天越亮，夜晚越黑，你就越不容易受到各种心理健康状况的影响。
And if you have a mental health condition, it gets way better.
如果你有心理健康问题，情况就会好得多。
So you need bright days and dark nights, and artificial lights during the day are not sufficient.
所以你需要明亮的白天和黑暗的夜晚，白天的人造光是不够的。
And at night, a small amount of artificial light is too much.
而在晚上，少量的人造光就太多了。
So these things should be straightforward to measure.
所以这些东西应该很容易衡量。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Aren't people in the South happier?
南方人不是更幸福吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
In Europe, if you look, sort of they enjoy life more.
在欧洲，如果你仔细观察，就会发现他们更享受生活。
They have more food.
他们有更多的食物。
They sit together.
他们坐在一起。
They have fun.
他们玩得很开心。
And the more north you go, the more serious and the more depression you find.
越往北走，你发现的抑郁症就越严重、越严重。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have Danish relatives.
我有丹麦亲戚。
I don't want to insult them.
我不想侮辱他们。
And they're very cheerful.
而且他们非常开朗。
But it's interesting.
但这很有趣。
People vary a great deal in their susceptibility to artificial light at night.
人们对夜间人造光的敏感度差异很大。
So I've long said you need to dim the lights.
所以我早就说过你需要把灯调暗。
Some people should even wear short wavelength blocking glasses, maybe even red light.
有些人甚至应该戴短波长眼镜，甚至红光眼镜。
Some people, a small amount of artificial light at night increases their cortisol really substantially and can disrupt their sleep.
对于某些人来说，夜间少量的人造光会大大增加他们的皮质醇，并会扰乱他们的睡眠。
Other people, less so.
其他人则不然。
So there seems to be some divergence, and it doesn't correlate with light eyes or dark eyes.
所以似乎存在一些差异，并且它与浅色眼睛或深色眼睛无关。
I am very sensitive to light at night.
我在晚上对光线非常敏感。
It will really disrupt my sleep.
它真的会扰乱我的睡眠。
Some people, not so much.
有些人，则不然。
But in terms of temperament, I'm going to inspire some family arguments here, but I don't know.
但就气质而言，我会在这里激发一些家庭争论，但我不知道。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
I mean, even growing up in Switzerland, we had very short days in the winter and then often fog.
我的意思是，即使在瑞士长大，我们冬天的白天也很短，而且经常有雾。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
It's hard to get up in the morning.
早上很难起床。
And then coming to California, it's sunny all day most of the year.
然后来到加州，一年中大部分时间都是晴天。
It just makes it easier-
它只是让事情变得更容易-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
...
...
to get your day started and-
开始新的一天并且-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
...
...
yeah, I love the sun.
是的，我喜欢阳光。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I think if people don't have access to enough sunlight, there are great data that a 10,000 lux artificial light placed in the kitchen or in the bathroom when you wake up in the morning, you don't need a lot of time in front of it.
我认为，如果人们无法获得足够的阳光，有很好的数据表明，当你早上醒来时，在厨房或浴室放置一万勒克斯的人造灯，你不需要在它面前花很多时间。
You don't have to stare at it.
你不必盯着它。
That can help offset some seasonal affect depression, and some people just need more photons to get that morning spike in cortisol, which is good to get the catecholamines going, dopamine, and so on.
这可以帮助抵消一些季节性影响的抑郁症，有些人只是需要更多的光子来获得早晨皮质醇的峰值，这有助于促进儿茶酚胺、多巴胺等。
I mean, the power of light over our mood and metabolism is huge.
我的意思是，光对我们的情绪和新陈代谢的影响是巨大的。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Amazing.
太棒了。
Yeah.
是的。
Should do another study on that.
应该对此进行另一项研究。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, listen- ...
我的意思是，听着——...
I'm due for a sabbatical.
我该休假了。
Can I do a sabbatical in your lab?
我可以在你们实验室休假吗？
Tell me, is there anything that you're particularly excited about that I did not ask you about?
告诉我，有什么事情让你特别兴奋但我没有问你吗？
You've been publishing so well for so long now, and you really put this whole field of looking at bloodborne and other factors correlated with youth as a therapeutic.
您长期以来一直在发表如此出色的文章，并且您确实将血源性疾病和其他与青春相关的因素视为一种治疗方法。
You really put that on the map in a serious way, and I really want to congratulate you for doing that on a backdrop of Dracula stories and kind of sensationalism around that.
你真的以一种严肃的方式把它放在地图上，我真的想祝贺你在德古拉故事的背景下做到了这一点，并围绕着它进行了某种轰动效应。
You're clearly a serious scientist taking things on seriously and also measuring multiple factors from blood, as you know, has a Kind of a complicated history, but you've really moved this forward in a-
你显然是一位严肃的科学家，认真对待事情，还测量血液中的多种因素，正如你所知，有一段复杂的历史，但你确实推动了这一进程——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in a very rigorous way.
以非常严格的方式。
And so-
所以——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that's awesome.
太棒了。
What are you thinking about these days that-
这些天你在想什么——
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I wouldn't know about?
我不会知道吗？
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Thanks for the opportunity.
感谢您提供的机会。
Yeah, so one thing that should later this week actually be publicly available on a pre-print server.
是的，所以本周晚些时候应该在预印本服务器上公开发布一件事。
So we took this idea of looking at organs and getting an estimate of how old is your brain or your heart.
因此，我们采取了观察器官并估计您的大脑或心脏的年龄的想法。
We took this to the next level and asked, can we build similar models and estimate how old cells are in your body?
我们将这个问题提升到了一个新的水平，并提出疑问：我们能否建立类似的模型并估计您体内细胞的年龄？
So we have many different cell types, right?
所以我们有许多不同的细胞类型，对吗？
That's how we have specialized organs.
这就是我们拥有专门机构的原因。
So we were able to, with the current technology that measures these thousands of proteins, we were able to assign proteins to 40 different cell types.
因此，利用当前测量这数千种蛋白质的技术，我们能够将蛋白质分配给 40 种不同的细胞类型。
And so we can now make estimates of specific cell types in your body.
因此，我们现在可以估计您体内的特定细胞类型。
One of the most striking finding was we looked in people with different neurodegenerative diseases and asked how old are all their different cell types.
最引人注目的发现之一是我们研究了患有不同神经退行性疾病的人，并询问他们所有不同细胞类型的年龄有多大。
And we find in this rare disease called amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, or ALS, in the US we often call it Lou Gehrig's disease because Lou Gehrig was this baseball player who got this devastating disease.
我们发现这种罕见的疾病称为肌萎缩侧索硬化症（ALS），在美国，我们通常将其称为卢伽雷氏病，因为卢伽雷氏是一位患有这种毁灭性疾病的棒球运动员。
It's a muscle weakness that often progresses extremely quickly, and people die.
这是一种肌肉无力，通常进展速度极快，导致患者死亡。
And what we found is that these individuals had an enrichment in extremely old muscle cells, skeletal muscle cells in particular, and also heart muscle cells, cardiomyocytes.
我们发现这些个体富含极其古老的肌肉细胞，特别是骨骼肌细胞，还有心肌细胞、心肌细胞。
So there was this very strong association, and then we looked in a longitudinal study, cross-sectional, but where we had 20 years follow-up.
因此，存在这种非常强烈的关联，然后我们进行了一项纵向研究、横断面研究，但我们进行了 20 年的随访。
It's called the UK Biobank.
它被称为英国生物银行。
So we had blood samples from people when they entered this study healthy, and then a number of people, about 250, developed ALS over the course of 15 years.
因此，我们收集了健康参加这项研究的人们的血液样本，然后有一些人（大约 250 人）在 15 年的时间里患上了 ALS。
And we found a strongly increased risk to develop the disease if they had these extremely old muscle cells.
我们发现，如果他们拥有这些极其古老的肌肉细胞，患这种疾病的风险就会大大增加。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
So here we have now a much finer resolution and granularity where we can get more predictive power, we can get more precise prediction of what type of disease you might get.
因此，我们现在拥有更精细的分辨率和粒度，可以获得更强的预测能力，可以更准确地预测您可能患上什么类型的疾病。
And of course, at the molecular level and the cellular level, we know where the problem might be, right?
当然，在分子水平和细胞水平上，我们知道问题可能出在哪里，对吧？
It's not just the whole organ, but now we know which cell type.
它不仅仅是整个器官，而且现在我们知道是哪种细胞类型。
Another one was, there's these cells we call astrocytes in the brain.
另一个是，大脑中有我们称之为星形胶质细胞的细胞。
We find a very strong association of the age of astrocytes and development of Alzheimer's disease, much stronger than just the brain age, so the age of your whole brain.
我们发现星形胶质细胞的年龄与阿尔茨海默氏病的发展之间存在非常密切的联系，这种联系比仅与大脑年龄（即整个大脑的年龄）强得多。
When we look now at these individual cells, they are a very strong predictor of Alzheimer's disease, especially together with a genetic risk factor.
当我们现在观察这些单个细胞时，它们是阿尔茨海默病的强有力的预测因子，特别是与遗传风险因素一起。
So that's something that we have been developing and really excited about.
这就是我们一直在开发并且非常兴奋的东西。
But my ultimate greatest stimulation right now is to build a map of the human proteome across different genetic diseases.
但我现在最大的刺激是建立不同遗传疾病的人类蛋白质组图谱。
So what I'm trying to do is to ask if somebody has a disease that is caused by a single genetic mutation, and there's about 6,000 or 7,000 such, we call them monogenic diseases, where if you have a mutation, you will get a disease, childhood disease or an adult disease.
所以我想做的是询问某人是否患有由单一基因突变引起的疾病，大约有 6,000 或 7,000 种这样的疾病，我们称之为单基因疾病，如果你有突变，你就会患上一种疾病，儿童疾病或成人疾病。
So what I want to do is to look at individuals with these mutations and profile their plasma, basically measure all the proteins and see are they different from healthy people.
所以我想做的是观察具有这些突变的个体并分析他们的血浆，基本上测量所有蛋白质，看看他们与健康人是否不同。
And if you do that across hundreds of diseases, you basically get a picture of how our body responds to the disruption of specific genes.
如果你对数百种疾病进行这样的研究，你基本上就能了解我们的身体如何对特定基因的破坏做出反应。
And the idea is that this will allow us to look at any type of disease where we don't know how it's caused and then say, "This looks like this genetic disease."
这个想法是，这将使我们能够研究任何类型的疾病，如果我们不知道它是如何引起的，然后说，“这看起来像这种遗传病。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Basically what we have been doing in animals with worms, right, where we knock out every gene or in flies, use the human experiment, if you will, and this may be a bit disparaging.
基本上我们在蠕虫动物身上所做的事情，对吧，我们敲除果蝇的每一个基因，如果你愿意的话，可以使用人体实验，这可能有点贬低。
These are obviously people who have diseases, but there are repositories where people volunteer to make these samples available for research.
这些显然是患有疾病的人，但有一些储存库，人们自愿提供这些样本以供研究。
And so we have had the opportunity already to look at 25 different genetic diseases, and we find these very specific patterns.
因此，我们已经有机会研究 25 种不同的遗传疾病，并且发现了这些非常具体的模式。
So that's what I want to build and then make it publicly available so that any researcher can ask, how does my protein of interest that I want to study, how does it change in these different genetic diseases?
这就是我想要构建的，然后将其公开，以便任何研究人员都可以问，我想要研究的感兴趣的蛋白质如何，它在这些不同的遗传疾病中如何变化？
And learn about how they're related to each other and which biological pathways they may change.
并了解它们之间的关系以及它们可能改变哪些生物途径。
That's what motivates me the most.
这是最激励我的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love it.
我喜欢它。
It's so clear that you're a driven person, and it's learning about what the next vista is, is always exciting.
很明显，你是一个有动力的人，了解下一个前景是什么总是令人兴奋的。
And again, thanks for the incredible work that you've been doing for all these years, bringing a level of rigor and seriousness to something that prior to that was just kind of tossed around as Kind of an observation and something to discuss at parties, young blood and this kind of thing.
再次感谢你们这些年来所做的令人难以置信的工作，为之前只是作为一种观察和在聚会上讨论的东西带来了一定程度的严谨和严肃，年轻的血液和类似的事情。
You're clearly shedding light on real mechanistic knowledge, and the ability to measure aging of different organs now, I think, is a tremendous technology.
您显然揭示了真正的机械知识，并且现在测量不同器官衰老的能力，我认为是一项巨大的技术。
I'm very curious about that.
我对此很好奇。
I know a number of other people will be.
我知道其他很多人也会这么做。
We'll put links to the various things and papers, et cetera.
我们将放置各种事物和论文的链接，等等。
And I also want to thank you for coming here, taking time out of your busy schedule, your lab, your family, your vineyard.
我还要感谢您来到这里，从您繁忙的日程、您的实验室、您的家人、您的葡萄园中抽出时间。
This is a plural.
这是复数。
To educate us on health and on healthspan, and on the relationship between youthfulness and aging, and what we can do to really ameliorate the degradation of healthspan.
让我们了解健康和健康寿命、年轻与衰老之间的关系，以及我们可以做些什么来真正改善健康寿命的退化。
You're developing the things that change lives for the better.
您正在开发能够让生活变得更美好的事物。
So thank you so much.
非常感谢。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I really appreciate you.
我真的很感激你。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Thank you so much for having me.
非常感谢你邀请我。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And come back again and talk about all the other discoveries.
然后再回来谈论所有其他发现。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'll buy a bottle of the wine from your vineyard and I'll gift it to one of the drinkers in my life.
我会从你的葡萄园买一瓶葡萄酒，并将其作为礼物送给我生命中的一位饮酒者。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Sounds good.
听起来不错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All right.
好吧。
Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray:
托尼·维斯-科雷博士：
Thank you very much.
非常感谢。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray.
感谢您参加今天与 Tony Wyss-Coray 博士的讨论。
To learn more about his work and to find links to the various resources we discussed, please see the show note captions.
要了解有关他的工作的更多信息并查找我们讨论的各种资源的链接，请参阅节目注释标题。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的关注按钮来关注播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review, and you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您可以给我们留下五星级的评论，现在您可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客或嘉宾有意见，或者您希望我为 Huberman Lab 播客考虑的主题，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这本书是我花了五年多时间编写的，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验。
And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
它涵盖了从睡眠到运动再到压力控制的所有协议，以及与注意力和动机相关的协议，当然，我为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There you can find links to various vendors.
在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." And if you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab。
So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。
Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
同样，所有社交媒体平台上都是 Huberman Lab。
And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.
我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。
All of that is available completely zero cost.
所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter and enter your email.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的“菜单”选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯并输入您的电子邮件即可。
And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Tony Wyss-Coray.
再次感谢您参加今天与 Tony Wyss-Coray 博士的讨论。
And last, but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但同样重要的是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
"I didn't like what you said," Odin pauses, "about the future." This is the love story of real Hinge couple Odin and Edward, written and read by me, Curtis Garner.
“我不喜欢你所说的，”奥丁停顿了一下，“关于未来。”这是真实的铰链夫妇奥丁和爱德华的爱情故事，由我柯蒂斯·加纳撰写和阅读。
Listen to the free audiobook now.
立即收听免费有声读物。