Using Red Light to Improve Metabolism & the Harmful Effects of LEDs | Dr. Glen Jeffery
Andrew Huberman: Let's talk about indoor lighting, because I am very concerned about the amount of short-wavelength light that people are exposed to nowadays, especially kids.
Andrew Huberman：我们来谈谈室内照明，因为我非常关心人们现在接触到的短波长光的数量，尤其是孩子们。
Glen Jeffery: Mm-hmm.
格伦·杰弗里：嗯嗯。
This is an issue on the same level as asbestos.
这是与石棉同一级别的问题。
This is a public health issue, and it's big.
这是一个公共健康问题，而且很严重。
And I think it's one of the reasons why I'm really happy to come here and talk, because it's time to talk.
我认为这是我很高兴来到这里讲话的原因之一，因为现在是讲话的时候了。
When we use LEDs, the light found in LEDs, when we use them, certainly, when we use them on the retina looking at mice, we can watch the mitochondria gently go downhill.
当我们使用LED时，LED中的光，当我们使用它们时，当然，当我们在视网膜上使用它们观察老鼠时，我们可以看到线粒体轻轻地走下坡路。
They're far less responsive.
They're far less responsive.
Their membrane potentials are coming down.
Their membrane potentials are coming down.
The mitochondria are not breathing very well.
The mitochondria are not breathing very well.
Can watch that in real-time.
Can watch that in real-time.
Andrew Huberman: Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
Andrew Huberman：欢迎来到 Huberman 实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Dr. Glen Jeffery, a professor of neuroscience at University College London.
今天我的嘉宾是伦敦大学学院神经科学教授格伦·杰弗里博士。
In today's episode, we discuss how you can use light, in particular red, near-infrared, and infrared light, to improve your health, and no, not just by getting sunlight, although we do talk about sunlight.
在今天的节目中，我们讨论如何使用光，特别是红光、近红外光和红外光来改善您的健康，不，不仅仅是通过获得阳光，尽管我们确实谈论了阳光。
Dr. Jeffery's lab has discovered that certain wavelengths or colors of light can be used to improve your skin, your eyesight, even your blood sugar regulation and metabolism.
杰弗里博士的实验室发现，某些波长或颜色的光可以用来改善您的皮肤、视力，甚至血糖调节和新陈代谢。
Dr. Jeffery explains how light is absorbed by the water in your mitochondria, the energy-producing organelles within your cells, to allow them to function better by producing more ATP.
Jeffery 博士解释了线粒体（细胞内产生能量的细胞器）中的水如何吸收光，从而使线粒体通过产生更多 ATP 来更好地发挥功能。
He also explains how long-wavelength light, things like red light, can be protective against mitochondrial damage caused by excessive exposure to things like LED bulbs and screens, which of course we are all exposed to pretty much all day long nowadays, and simple, inexpensive, and even zero-cost ways that you can get long-wavelength light exposure, and again, not just by getting more sunlight.
他还解释了长波长光（如红光）如何能够防止因过度暴露于 LED 灯泡和屏幕等物体而造成的线粒体损伤（当然，现在我们几乎整天都暴露在这些物体下），以及获得长波长光暴露的简单、廉价甚至零成本的方法，而且，不仅仅是获得更多的阳光。
He explains that long-wavelength light can actually pass into and through your entire body, and that it scatters when inside you.
他解释说，长波长光实际上可以进入并穿过您的整个身体，并且在您体内时会发生散射。
Now, that might sound scary, but it's actually a great thing for your health, because that's how long-wavelength light can improve the health of all your organs, by entering your body and supporting your mitochondria.
现在，这可能听起来很可怕，但这实际上对您的健康来说是一件好事，因为长波长光可以通过进入您的身体并支持线粒体来改善您所有器官的健康。
Believe it or not, certain wavelengths of light can actually pass through your skull into your brain and help promote brain health.
不管你相信与否，某些波长的光实际上可以穿过你的头骨进入你的大脑，并有助于促进大脑健康。
During today's episode, we also discuss new findings that correlate the amount of sunlight you're exposed to with longevity.
在今天的节目中，我们还讨论了将您所接触的阳光量与寿命相关联的新发现。
Those are very surprising findings, but they're important.
这些都是非常令人惊讶的发现，但它们很重要。
Also, why everyone needs some UV light exposure.
另外，为什么每个人都需要一些紫外线照射。
And we discuss whether it's important to close your eyes when using red light devices or in red light saunas, and how best to apply red light and things like infrared light in order to derive maximum health benefits.
我们还讨论了使用红光设备或红光桑拿时闭上眼睛是否重要，以及如何最好地应用红光和红外光等，以获得最大的健康益处。
Today, you're going to learn from one of the greats in neuroscience as to how to use light to improve the health and longevity of any and every tissue in your body, and the mechanisms for how that works.
今天，您将向神经科学领域的一位伟人学习如何利用光来改善体内每个组织的健康和寿命，以及其工作机制。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.
为了与这个主题保持一致，今天的节目确实有赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Glen Jeffery.
And now for my discussion with Dr. Glen Jeffery.
Dr. Glen Jeffery, welcome.
格伦·杰弗里博士，欢迎。
Glen Jeffery: Thank you.
格伦·杰弗里：谢谢。
Thank you very much.
非常感谢。
Andrew Huberman: We go way back.
Andrew Huberman：我们可以追溯到很久以前。
Later, I'll tell a little bit of the story and why it is truly unforeseen that we'd be sitting here talking about what we're talking about.
稍后，我将讲述一些这个故事，以及为什么我们坐在这里谈论我们正在谈论的事情确实是不可预见的。
But it's great to see you again.
But it's great to see you again.
And I'm super excited about the work you've been doing over the last few years, because it's completely transformed the way that I think about light and health, light and mitochondria.
我对你过去几年所做的工作感到非常兴奋，因为它完全改变了我对光与健康、光与线粒体的看法。
And frankly, every environment I go into now, indoor or outdoor, I think about how that lighting environment is impacting my cellular health, maybe even my longevity.
坦率地说，我现在进入的每个环境，无论是室内还是室外，我都会思考照明环境如何影响我的细胞健康，甚至可能影响我的寿命。
So, if you would be willing, could you explain for people a little bit about light as, let's say, the visible spectrum, the stuff that we can see, and the stuff that's kind of outside what we can see, as a framework for how that stuff impacts our cells?
那么，如果您愿意，您能否向人们解释一下光，例如可见光谱，我们可以看到的东西，以及我们可以看到的东西之外的东西，作为这些东西如何影响我们的细胞的框架？
Because I think without that understanding, it's going to be a little bit mysterious how it is that lights of particular colors, wavelengths, as we call them, could impact our mitochondria the way they do.
因为我认为如果没有这种理解，我们所说的特定颜色、波长的光如何影响我们的线粒体就会有点神秘。
But with just a little bit of understanding about light, I think people will get a lot more out of our conversation.
但只要对光有一点了解，我认为人们就会从我们的谈话中获得更多信息。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah, sure.
Glen Jeffery: Yeah, sure.
We think about light purely in terms of the light we see, and that's perfectly natural.
我们纯粹根据我们看到的光来思考光，这是非常自然的。
And the light we see runs from deep blue, violet, out to pretty deep red, deep bicycle light.
我们看到的光从深蓝色、紫色到非常深的红色、深自行车灯。
And that's what we see.
这就是我们所看到的。
That's what we're aware of.
That's what we're aware of.
The trouble is that actually there's a lot more of it than that.
问题是实际上还有更多的事情。
The sun kicks out a vast amount of light that we don't see.
太阳发出大量我们看不到的光。
So, let's say the visual range is, just grab the numbers, which is, say, 400 to 700.
所以，假设视觉范围是，只需获取数字，即 400 到 700。
That's our spectrum.
这就是我们的频谱。
Andrew Huberman: Nanometers.
安德鲁·休伯曼：纳米。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah, nanometers.
格伦·杰弗里：是的，纳米。
Andrew Huberman: And there we're talking about the wavelength, how bumpy those wavelengths of light are.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我们正在讨论波长，这些波长的光有多么颠簸。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Sunlight extends out almost to 3,000 nanometers.
阳光的传播波长几乎可达 3,000 纳米。
Just think about it.
想一想吧。
Which is a big, big range, and then that's in the infrared.
这是一个很大很大的范围，然后就是红外线。
And on the other end, the bits that we don't see, the deep, deep blues and the violets, that goes down deeply to about 300 nanometers.
而在另一端，我们看不到的部分，深蓝色和紫罗兰色，深至约 300 纳米。
Now, this is a continuum.
现在，这是一个连续体。
We parcel it up because there's bits we see and there's bits we don't see.
我们将其打包，因为有些是我们看到的，有些是我们看不到的。
But you can think about it as a continuous wavelength, and the wavelength gets longer and longer and longer as we go out into the deep red.
但你可以把它想象成一个连续的波长，当我们进入深红色时，波长变得越来越长。
So, short-wavelength lights, the ones just below blue, they're very, very high frequency.
因此，短波长光，即蓝色下方的光，它们的频率非常非常高。
They carry quite a kick, and that's why when you're sitting in the sun and you get sunburned, it's mainly because of those ultraviolet short-wavelengths that are present, and then you go beyond our visual range, beyond 700, and the wavelengths become very, very long, and they carry a certain kind of energy, but they don't carry the kick.
它们带有相当大的冲击力，这就是为什么当你坐在阳光下并被晒伤时，主要是因为存在那些紫外线短波长，然后你超出了我们的视觉范围，超过700，波长变得非常非常长，它们携带某种能量，但它们不带有冲击力。
So, the important point to think of is when you go out in sunlight, you see all these colors, blues, greens, reds, but there's so much out there that you don't see.
因此，要考虑的重要一点是，当您在阳光下外出时，您会看到所有这些颜色，蓝色、绿色、红色，但还有很多您看不到的颜色。
And we thought probably you didn't need to be aware of.
我们认为您可能不需要知道。
But nearly all animals basically see this visual range that we have.
但几乎所有动物基本上都能看到我们拥有的这个视觉范围。
Andrew Huberman: Red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet, right?
安德鲁·休伯曼：红、橙、黄、绿、蓝、靛、紫，对吧？
Glen Jeffery: Blue.
格伦·杰弗里：蓝色。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: We can separate those out by shining light through a prism.
Andrew Huberman：我们可以通过棱镜照射光线来将它们分开。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Think the cover of the Pink Floyd "Dark Side of the Moon" album.
安德鲁·休伯曼：想想平克·弗洛伊德“月之暗面”专辑的封面。
Glen Jeffery: Pink Floyd album.
格伦·杰弗里：平克·弗洛伊德专辑。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: And that's separating out the different wavelengths.
Andrew Huberman：这就是分离不同的波长。
You say that the short wavelengths have a kick.
你说短波长有作用。
I want to talk a little bit about what that kick is.
我想谈谈这个踢是什么。
We distinguish between ionizing and non-ionizing radiation.
我们区分电离辐射和非电离辐射。
And I think for a lot of people, they hear the word radiation, and they think radioactive, and they think that all radiation is bad or dangerous.
我认为对于很多人来说，他们听到辐射这个词，他们会想到放射性，他们认为所有辐射都是有害的或危险的。
But in fact, light energy is radiating, right?
但事实上，光能是在辐射的，对吧？
Glen Jeffery: Mm.
格伦·杰弗里：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: So, it's radiation energy, but at the short wavelengths, below UV, they are ionizing radiation, and maybe we could just explain what that means, how that actually changes our cells.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，它是辐射能，但在短波长下，低于紫外线，它们是电离辐射，也许我们可以解释这意味着什么，它实际上如何改变我们的细胞。
Because if we get too much of that, it indeed can alter our DNA.
因为如果我们摄入太多，它确实会改变我们的 DNA。
Glen Jeffery: I think the important point to think about is not only what the wavelengths are, but also how a body responds to those wavelengths.
Glen Jeffery：我认为需要考虑的重要一点不仅是波长是什么，还有身体对这些波长的反应。
So, let's bounce back a little bit to, for instance, the sunburn.
那么，让我们稍微回顾一下晒伤等问题。
We're getting sunburnt because the body is blocking those wavelengths.
我们被晒伤是因为身体阻挡了这些波长。
Those wavelengths cannot penetrate very far.
这些波长不能穿透很远。
So, when you're out on a hot sunny day, and part of your body goes pink, it's going pink because it's blocking those wavelengths.
因此，当您在炎热的阳光明媚的日子外出时，您身体的一部分会变成粉红色，它会变成粉红色，因为它阻挡了这些波长。
So, the energy is not being distributed throughout the body.
因此，能量没有分布到全身。
The energy is hitting the skin, and you're getting an inflammatory response to it.
能量冲击皮肤，你就会产生炎症反应。
Now interestingly, we block those from our eye because our lens and our cornea also blocks those short wavelengths.
有趣的是，我们会阻挡这些波长，因为我们的晶状体和角膜也会阻挡这些短波长。
So, that's part of the reason why we don't see them, but it's also the reason why, for instance, people get snow blindness because it's just sunburn on the cornea and the lens.
所以，这就是我们看不到它们的部分原因，但这也是人们患雪盲症的原因，因为这只是角膜和晶状体被晒伤。
It's recoverable from, but it's very painful.
可以恢复，但是非常痛苦。
Andrew Huberman: And with age, some people who get a lot of sun exposure will get cataract.
安德鲁·休伯曼：随着年龄的增长，一些经常暴露在阳光下的人会患上白内障。
Glen Jeffery: Yes.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Which is kind of the lens becomes more opaque.
Andrew Huberman：这就是镜头变得更加不透明的原因。
Glen Jeffery: It does.
格伦·杰弗里：确实如此。
And I've heard that described as being the lens being cooked.
我听说这被描述为镜头被煮熟了。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: But in actual fact, I used to run the eye bank at Moorfields Eye Hospital, Eyes for Research, and you can actually open a patient's eyes up when they're dead, and you can look at the color of the lens, and you can get a rough idea of how old that person was.
格伦·杰弗里：但事实上，我曾经在莫菲尔德眼科医院（Moorfields Eye Hospital）的眼科研究中心（Eyes for Research）经营眼库，当病人死后，你实际上可以睁开他们的眼睛，你可以看到晶状体的颜色，你可以大致了解那个人的年龄。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: So, one of the surgical procedures that medics love is to replace a cataract.
格伦·杰弗里：所以，医生喜欢的外科手术之一就是替换白内障。
Take an older person, they've got this thick brownish lens, and pop it out and put a clear lens in, and the instant response in 90% of them is, "Wow!"
拿一个老年人来说，他们有厚厚的棕色镜片，将其取出并放入透明镜片，90% 的人的即时反应是，“哇！”
Andrew Huberman: In the patients?
安德鲁·休伯曼：在病人身上？
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Andrew Huberman: These are live patients?
安德鲁·休伯曼：这些是活人吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah, live patients.
格伦·杰弗里：是的，活生生的病人。
It's done under a local anesthetic in older patients, and they just go, "Wow!
这是在老年患者的局部麻醉下完成的，他们只是说，“哇！
Isn't that amazing?" Suddenly, they're getting a lot more light in their eye.
这不是很神奇吗？”突然，他们的眼中变得更加明亮。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: Because the lens was brown, it blocked a lot of the bluer wavelengths, and so they go, "Everything is very bright.
格伦·杰弗里：因为镜片是棕色的，所以它阻挡了很多蓝色波长，所以他们说，“一切都非常明亮。
Everything's very sparkly." And it was quite a dramatic response.
一切都非常闪闪发光。”这是一个非常戏剧性的反应。
But the interesting thing is, two days later they said, "Yeah, it's gone."
但有趣的是，两天后他们说：“是的，它消失了。”
Andrew Huberman: Hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Glen Jeffery: And the brain kind of readapts that visual input from the retina.
格伦·杰弗里：大脑会重新适应来自视网膜的视觉输入。
But going back over the literature of replacing cataracts, it's quite interesting.
但回顾一下替代白内障的文献，这很有趣。
It tells you actually quite a lot.
它实际上告诉你很多。
Now, when we put those plastic lenses in, we have UV blockers in them, so you don't actually get a lot of short wavelengths coming through.
现在，当我们放入这些塑料镜片时，里面有紫外线阻挡剂，所以实际上不会有大量的短波长透过。
But it was certainly the response in the earlier days when we didn't have UV blockers of people saying, "God, that's sparkly."
但这肯定是早期的反应，当时我们还没有紫外线阻挡剂，人们会说：“天啊，那太闪闪发光了。”
Andrew Huberman: I see.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我明白了。
Glen Jeffery: "That's really sparkly."
格伦·杰弗里：“这真的很闪亮。”
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, the sparkliness being those short wavelengths.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，闪闪发光的是那些短波长。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Like, think of off the top of water on a really sunny day.
Andrew Huberman：就像，想象一下在阳光明媚的日子里离开水面。
So, I think the takeaway for me is that we should all be protecting our skin against too much UV and other short wavelengths, and we should probably protect our eyes against too much ultraviolet exposure over time.
所以，我认为对我来说，我们都应该保护我们的皮肤免受过多的紫外线和其他短波长的影响，并且随着时间的推移，我们可能应该保护我们的眼睛免受过多的紫外线照射。
We know that you don't want the mutations of the skin, or the clouding of the lens.
我们知道您不希望皮肤发生突变，或者晶状体变得浑浊。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I mean, you pointed out you can replace the lens, but I think at the same time we need UV, right?
Andrew Huberman：我的意思是，您指出可以更换镜片，但我认为同时我们需要紫外线，对吧？
I mean, vitamin D production requires UV exposure.
我的意思是，维生素 D 的产生需要紫外线照射。
Glen Jeffery: Mm.
格伦·杰弗里：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Do we know how that works, what that pathway is?
Andrew Huberman：我们知道它是如何运作的吗？这条途径是什么？
Glen Jeffery: Yeah, we've got a fairly good idea, but I want to just take you back a step, if I may.
Glen Jeffery：是的，我们有一个相当好的主意，但如果可以的话，我想退一步。
There's some really fantastic work coming out at the moment where a few dermatologists are reevaluating the issue of sunlight on the human body, and the leader of that is a character called Richard Weller from Edinburgh, and he's going back over all the data.
目前有一些非常出色的工作正在出现，一些皮肤科医生正在重新评估阳光对人体的影响，其中的领导者是来自爱丁堡的理查德·韦勒（Richard Weller），他正在回顾所有数据。
And Richard's coming out and saying, "All-cause mortality is lower in people that get a lot of sunlight." And his argument is that the only thing you've got to avoid is sunburn.
理查德出来说：“接受大量阳光照射的人的全因死亡率较低。”他的论点是，你唯一需要避免的就是晒伤。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: The mutations of DNA are occurring really when you've got very, very high levels, not when you've got relatively low levels.
Glen Jeffery：当 DNA 水平非常非常高时，DNA 突变才会真正发生，而不是当水平相对较低时。
And Richard's work has been terribly interesting because he's dug out all the little corners, all the little things that you think about three days later.
理查德的工作非常有趣，因为他挖出了所有的小角落，所有你三天后会想到的小事情。
He's dug out all those little corners, and things like Aborigines in Australia don't get skin cancer.
他把所有这些小角落都挖出来了，像澳大利亚的原住民这样的人就不会得皮肤癌。
White people there probably are in the wrong place, given their evolutionary stage.
考虑到白人的进化阶段，他们可能处于错误的位置。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, high levels of skin cancer in Australia
Andrew Huberman：是的，澳大利亚皮肤癌发病率很高
Glen Jeffery: In the Caucasian population.
Glen Jeffery：在白人群体中。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
But maybe they're getting too much sun exposure too fast.
但也许他们太快地接受了太多的阳光照射。
The UV index is very high down there, I will say.
我想说，那里的紫外线指数非常高。
Glen Jeffery: Yes, exactly.
格伦·杰弗里：是的，完全正确。
Andrew Huberman: I mean, quote unquote, "you feel it."
安德鲁·休伯曼：我的意思是，引用原话，“你感觉到了。”
Glen Jeffery: You feel it.
格伦·杰弗里：你感觉到了。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Quote, unquote.
安德鲁·休伯曼：引用，取消引用。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Andrew Huberman: It's interesting, I hosted a derm-oncologist on this podcast.
Andrew Huberman：很有趣，我在这个播客上接待了一位皮肤肿瘤学家。
Glen Jeffery: Mm-hmm.
格伦·杰弗里：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Dr. Teo Soleymani.
安德鲁·休伯曼：Teo Soleymani 博士。
So, he's a dermatologist who's also in derm-oncology.
所以，他是一名皮肤科医生，同时也是皮肤肿瘤学领域的专家。
Glen Jeffery: Mm-hmm.
格伦·杰弗里：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: So, skin cancer is one of his specialties.
Andrew Huberman：所以，皮肤癌是他的专长之一。
Glen Jeffery: His business.
格伦·杰弗里：他的事。
Andrew Huberman: And he surprised me when he told us that indeed sunburn can lead to skin cancers.
安德鲁·休伯曼：当他告诉我们晒伤确实会导致皮肤癌时，我感到很惊讶。
Too many sunburns can lead to skin cancers, but that the most deadly skin cancers, the most deadly melanomas, are not associated with sun exposure.
过多的晒伤会导致皮肤癌，但最致命的皮肤癌，最致命的黑色素瘤，与阳光照射无关。
Glen Jeffery: Yes.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Those can occur independent of sun exposure, and they often occur on parts of the body that get very little sun exposure.
Andrew Huberman：这些症状的发生与阳光照射无关，而且通常发生在很少接触阳光的身体部位。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Like the melanomas will show up...
安德鲁·休伯曼：就像黑色素瘤会出现一样......
I think Bob Marley died eventually from one that started between his toes or something, or on the bottom of the foot.
我认为鲍勃·马利最终死于脚趾间或其他部位或脚底的感染。
Glen Jeffery: Mm.
格伦·杰弗里：嗯。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: There's a lot to unpack about the relationship between light and skin cancers, and I'm going to chase down the literature trail of this Weller guy.
Andrew Huberman：关于光和皮肤癌之间的关系，有很多东西需要解开，我将追寻这个 Weller 人的文献线索。
Glen Jeffery: Well, Richard Weller is very interesting.
格伦·杰弗里：嗯，理查德·韦勒非常有趣。
I think he said he hasn't got any dermatological friends anymore.
我想他说他再也没有皮肤科朋友了。
Andrew Huberman: Probably not.
安德鲁·休伯曼：可能不会。
Glen Jeffery: But he also pointed out that if skin cancer was directly related with sunlight, then we should find in skin cancer patients very high levels of vitamin D.
Glen Jeffery：但他也指出，如果皮肤癌与阳光直接相关，那么我们应该在皮肤癌患者中发现非常高水平的维生素 D。
In actual fact, they've got relatively low levels of vitamin D.
事实上，它们的维生素 D 含量相对较低。
Andrew Huberman: Mm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Glen Jeffery: So, as you say, that story needs to be unpacked.
格伦·杰弗里：所以，正如你所说，这个故事需要被解开。
And what's happened, I think, in the dermatological literature is that we've followed a pattern.
我认为，在皮肤病学文献中，我们遵循了一种模式。
Yeah.
是的。
We've followed an assumption, and it's gone a very long way down the line, and then it's taken a little bit of a rogue to come out and say, "Hang on.
我们遵循了一个假设，但它已经走了很长一段路，然后需要一点流氓才能站出来说：“坚持住。
We need to take a step back here." And I think Richard Weller's leading that.
我们需要在这里退后一步。”我认为理查德·韦勒在这方面处于领先地位。
And we obviously both have an interest in daylight, but his interest in daylight tends to be focused a little bit more on those blue short wavelengths, whereas I'm at the other end of the spectrum.
显然我们都对日光感兴趣，但他对日光的兴趣往往更多地集中在那些蓝色短波长上，而我则处于光谱的另一端。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: But I think he's a mover and a shaker.
格伦·杰弗里：但我认为他是一个推动者和推动者。
Andrew Huberman: Great.
安德鲁·休伯曼： 太好了。
Well, I'm excited to see where that literature leads.
嗯，我很高兴看到这些文献的发展方向。
Glen Jeffery: Mm.
格伦·杰弗里：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And I'm glad that somebody's parsing, as you said, all the corners of it, because I think we've been fed a story that excessive sunlight leads to skin cancer.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我很高兴有人正在解析它的所有角落，正如你所说，因为我认为我们已经被灌输了一个故事，即过度阳光会导致皮肤癌。
And the data on reduced all-cause mortality in people that get a lot of sunlight, I saw a study out of Sweden.
我看到了瑞典的一项研究，关于接受大量阳光照射的人全因死亡率降低的数据。
Looks very, very solid.
看起来非常非常扎实。
Glen Jeffery: Mm.
格伦·杰弗里：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: But more data is needed, clearly.
Andrew Huberman：但是显然需要更多数据。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Andrew Huberman: So...
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以……
Glen Jeffery: I think that that story...
格伦·杰弗里：我认为那个故事......
There was a story out of Sweden.
瑞典有一个故事。
There was also a story out of the University of East Anglia.
还有一个来自东安格利亚大学的故事。
And we're talking big numbers.
我们谈论的是大数字。
We're talking very big numbers on that.
我们正在谈论非常大的数字。
So, it could have a lot of points that we don't quite understand yet.
所以，它可能有很多我们还不太理解的地方。
But I think the solid thrust of it, and the interesting thrust of it, for me, is that all-cause mortality flagships up on that are cardiovascular disease and cancers.
但我认为，对我来说，它的坚实推力和有趣的推力是，全因死亡率高于心血管疾病和癌症。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: It's not the obvious ones that we'd be thinking about.
Glen Jeffery：我们不会考虑那些显而易见的问题。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: So, yeah, let's use the term unpacking.
Glen Jeffery：所以，是的，我们使用“拆包”一词。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: That one definitely needs unpacking.
Glen Jeffery：那肯定需要拆包。
But from a public health perspective, that's an important area.
但从公共卫生的角度来看，这是一个重要的领域。
Andrew Huberman: Well, I'm certainly a fan of people getting sunlight both in their eyes and on their skin, although not to the point of burning, obviously.
Andrew Huberman：嗯，我当然喜欢人们让阳光照射到眼睛和皮肤上，尽管显然没有达到灼伤的程度。
Glen Jeffery: Mm-hmm.
格伦·杰弗里：嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: In today's financial landscape of constant market shifts and chaotic news, it's easy to feel uncertain about where to keep your money.
Andrew Huberman：在当今市场不断变化、新闻混乱的金融环境中，人们很容易不确定该把钱放在哪里。
However, saving and investing does not have to be complicated.
然而，储蓄和投资并不一定很复杂。
There's a solution that can help you take control of your finances while still managing risk, and that's Wealthfront.
有一种解决方案可以帮助您控制财务，同时仍然管理风险，这就是 Wealthfront。
I've trusted Wealthfront with my finances for nearly a decade.
近十年来，我一直信任 Wealthfront 来管理我的财务。
With the Wealthfront cash account, I can earn 3.5% annual percentage yield, or APY, on my cash from program banks, and I know my money is growing until I'm ready to spend it or invest it.
有了 Wealthfront 现金账户，我可以从计划银行获得 3.5% 的年收益率 (APY)，而且我知道我的钱会不断增长，直到我准备好消费或投资。
One of the features I love about Wealthfront is that I have access to instant, no-fee withdrawals to eligible accounts 24/7.
我喜欢 Wealthfront 的功能之一是我可以 24/7 即时、免费提款到符合条件的账户。
That means I can move my money where I need it without waiting.
这意味着我可以将资金转移到需要的地方，而无需等待。
And when I'm ready to transition from saving to investing, Wealthfront lets me seamlessly transfer my funds into one of their expert-built portfolios.
当我准备好从储蓄过渡到投资时，Wealthfront 可以让我无缝地将资金转移到他们专家构建的投资组合之一。
For a limited time, Wealthfront is offering new clients an additional 0.65% boost over the base rate for three months, meaning you can get up to 4.15% variable APY on up to a 150,000 dollars in deposits.
在有限的时间内，Wealthfront 为新客户提供三个月内比基本利率额外 0.65% 的提升，这意味着您最多 150,000 美元的存款可以获得高达 4.15% 的可变年利率。
More than one million people already trust Wealthfront to save more, earn more, and build long-term wealth with confidence.
已有超过一百万人相信 Wealthfront 能够满怀信心地储蓄更多、赚取更多收入并建立长期财富。
If you'd like to try Wealthfront, go to wealthfront.com/huberman to receive the boosted APY offer and start earning 4.15% variable APY today.
如果您想尝试 Wealthfront，请访问 Wealthfront.com/huberman 获取提升 APY 优惠，并立即开始赚取 4.15% 的可变 APY。
That's wealthfront.com/huberman to get started.
请从 Fortunefront.com/huberman 开始。
This is a paid testimonial of Wealthfront.
这是 Wealthfront 的付费推荐。
Client experiences will vary.
客户体验会有所不同。
Wealthfront brokerage is not a bank.
Wealthfront 经纪公司不是银行。
The base APY is as of November 7, 2025, and is subject to change.
基本 APY 截至 2025 年 11 月 7 日，可能会发生变化。
For more information, please see the episode description.
欲了解更多信息，请参阅剧集描述。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Joovv.
今天的节目也是Joovv给我们带来的。
Joovv makes medical-grade red light and infrared light therapy devices.
Joovv 生产医疗级红光和红外光治疗设备。
Now, if there's one thing that I've consistently emphasized on this podcast, it is the incredible impact that light can have on our biology and our health.
现在，如果我在这个播客中一直强调一件事，那就是光对我们的生物学和健康产生的令人难以置信的影响。
In fact, that's the topic of today's discussion with Dr. Glen Jeffery, the world's most accomplished biologist, on the power of red light for promoting different aspects of your health.
事实上，这就是今天与世界上最有成就的生物学家 Glen Jeffery 博士讨论的主题，讨论红光对促进健康各个方面的作用。
Red light and infrared light have been shown to have remarkable effects on cellular and organ health, including improved mitochondrial function, improved skin health and appearance, reduced pain and inflammation, and even for improving vision itself.
红光和红外光已被证明对细胞和器官健康具有显着影响，包括改善线粒体功能、改善皮肤健康和外观、减轻疼痛和炎症，甚至改善视力本身。
Recent research shows that even relatively brief exposure to red and infrared light can meaningfully improve your metabolism and blood sugar regulation.
最近的研究表明，即使相对短暂地暴露在红光和红外光下也可以有意义地改善您的新陈代谢和血糖调节。
Now, there are a lot of different red light therapy devices out there, but what sets Joovv lights apart, and why they're my preferred red light therapy device, is that they use clinically proven wavelengths, meaning specific wavelengths of red light, near-infrared, and infrared light in exactly the right ratios to trigger the cellular adaptations for health.
现在，市面上有很多不同的红光治疗设备，但 Joovv 灯的与众不同之处以及它们成为我首选红光治疗设备的原因在于，它们使用经过临床验证的波长，这意味着特定波长的红光、近红外光和红外光以完全正确的比例来触发细胞的健康适应。
Personally, I use the Joovv whole body panel about three to four times per week for about five to ten minutes per session, and I use the Joovv handheld light both at home and when I travel.
就我个人而言，我每周使用 Joovv 全身面板约三到四次，每次约五到十分钟，并且我在家中和旅行时都使用 Joovv 手持灯。
If you'd like to try Joovv, you can go to Joovv, spelled J-O-O-V-V.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Joovv，可以访问 Joovv（拼写为 J-O-O-V-V.com/huberman）。
Right now, Joovv is offering a special holiday discount of up to 600 dollars off select Joovv products.
目前，Joovv 提供精选 Joovv 产品高达 600 美元的特别假期折扣。
Again, that's Joovv, J-O-O-V-V.com/huberman, to get up to 600 dollars off.
同样，这是 Joovv，J-O-O-V-V.com/huberman，可享受高达 600 美元的折扣。
So, let's talk about how light impacts mitochondria and other aspects of cellular function and maybe use that as a segue into the longer wavelengths.
因此，让我们讨论一下光如何影响线粒体和细胞功能的其他方面，并可能将其用作更长波长的过渡。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah, sure.
格伦·杰弗里：是的，当然。
That area is expanding enormously.
该地区正在急剧扩大。
And it's expanding enormously in lots of little pockets, and the pockets weren't always talking to one another very well.
它在许多小口袋中急剧扩张，而这些口袋并不总是能够很好地相互沟通。
The first person that came along and said, "Look, longer wavelengths are really positively affecting mitochondrial function," was a lady called Tiina Karu in Russia, and who was very largely ignored.
第一个站出来说：“看，更长的波长确实对线粒体功能有积极影响”，是俄罗斯的一位名叫蒂娜·卡鲁的女士，但她在很大程度上被忽视了。
I think she's still alive.
我想她还活着。
I would love to buy her a glass of champagne, if only because she started it off.
我很想给她买一杯香槟，哪怕只是因为她开始了。
She kick-started it off.
她开始了。
But she was very much of the opinion that mitochondria absorb long waves of light.
但她非常相信线粒体吸收长波光。
Parts of the mitochondria absorb it.
线粒体的部分吸收它。
And one of my studies to try and pin this down was to take a whole load of mitochondria, put them in a test tube, put a spectrometer on them, and a light, and say, "What are these guys absorbing?" Well, I found the point where they were absorbing the damaging blue light, but I could not find the red.
我的一项研究试图确定这一点，就是取出一整堆线粒体，将它们放入试管中，在上面放上光谱仪和灯，然后说：“这些家伙吸收了什么？”好吧，我找到了它们吸收有害蓝光的点，但我找不到红光。
I could not find it.
我找不到它。
There was a lot of stomping around in the lab, who's made a mistake, everyone parceling the blame on.
实验室里有很多人跺脚，谁犯了错误，每个人都把责任归咎于谁。
But it changed.
但情况发生了变化。
It changed because what absorbs long-wavelength light?
它发生了变化，因为什么吸收长波长光？
Well, a most obvious one is water.
嗯，最明显的一个就是水。
The sea is blue because the long wavelengths are absorbed.
大海是蓝色的，因为长波长被吸收了。
So, someone came along and said, "Is it about water?
于是，有人走过来说：“是关于水的吗？
Is it about water in mitochondria that's doing this?" Mitochondria make energy.
是线粒体中的水在起作用吗？”线粒体产生能量。
They make energy called ATP, and you make your body weight in that every day.
它们产生称为 ATP 的能量，您每天都用它来产生体重。
It's a vast process, and you make it as a wheel turns round.
这是一个巨大的过程，就像车轮转动一样。
Mitochondria have these little wheels, these pumps that spin around, but they spin around in water, nanowater.
线粒体有这些小轮子，这些旋转的泵，但它们在水、纳米水中旋转。
And apparently, I'm not a physicist, nanowater is viscous.
显然，我不是物理学家，纳米水是粘稠的。
So, one idea, I think, which we have to take quite seriously is that the viscosity of water is changing as a consequence of long-wavelength light that penetrates deeply in the body.
因此，我认为我们必须认真对待的一个想法是，由于长波长光深入人体，水的粘度正在发生变化。
There is an increase in the spin rate of the motor that produces ATP, and it gains momentum.
产生 ATP 的马达转速增加，并获得动力。
Now, that is absolutely fine.
现在，那绝对没问题。
I can stick with that one.
我可以坚持那个。
I think that one makes considerable degree of sense, and it gets us over a problem.
我认为这很有道理，它帮助我们解决了一个问题。
Mitochondria themselves are not absorbing long-wavelength light.
线粒体本身不吸收长波长光。
Andrew Huberman: It's the water that they're surrounded by.
Andrew Huberman：它们被水包围。
Glen Jeffery: It's their environment.
Glen Jeffery：这是他们的环境。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: Okay.
格伦·杰弗里：好的。
So, I think in the end, when you talk about the function of anything, we tend to focus on that thing, and we don't talk too much about where is it.
所以，我认为最终，当你谈论任何东西的功能时，我们倾向于关注那个东西，而我们不会过多谈论它在哪里。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: What's it surrounded by, and how does it influence it?
Glen Jeffery：它被什么包围着，它是如何影响它的？
So, the first reaction I think is that the motor starts to go round a little faster.
所以，我认为的第一反应是电机开始转得更快一些。
But then something else happens, which is really interesting, which is we start to make more of these chains that make energy.
但随后发生了其他事情，这非常有趣，那就是我们开始制造更多这些制造能源的链条。
So, let's say mitochondria is a chain, it's a series of things, and electrons are passed along that chain to produce energy.
所以，假设线粒体是一条链，它是一系列的东西，电子沿着这条链传递以产生能量。
Well, when we give long-wavelength light, we find the proteins in those chains, we find a lot more of them.
好吧，当我们发出长波长光时，我们发现了这些链中的蛋白质，我们发现了更多的蛋白质。
So, my analogy is that giving red light gets the train to run down the track faster.
所以，我的比喻是，红灯可以让火车在轨道上跑得更快。
That's true.
这是真的。
But then something detects the speed of that train and says, "Lay down more tracks.
但随后有东西检测到火车的速度并说：“铺设更多铁轨。
We need more tracks."
我们需要更多曲目。”
Andrew Huberman: Hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Glen Jeffery: So, we're finding a lot more protein there that is associated with passing that electron down the pathway to make energy.
格伦·杰弗里：所以，我们在那里发现了更多的蛋白质，它们与将电子沿着路径传递以产生能量有关。
Andrew Huberman: Interesting.
安德鲁·休伯曼：有趣。
So, it sounds as if long-wavelength light via water is actually changing the structure of mitochondria and its function as well.
因此，听起来好像通过水的长波长光实际上正在改变线粒体的结构及其功能。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
I think I would say it's improving the function, and it's influencing more mitochondrial proteins to be synthesized.
我想我会说它正在改善功能，并且它正在影响更多线粒体蛋白质的合成。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: So, we've got an immediate effect, and we've got a longer-term effect as well.
格伦·杰弗里：所以，我们得到了立竿见影的效果，而且也得到了长期的效果。
Andrew Huberman: Well, one thing we know about mitochondria is that they started off as independent bits of biology and then the eukaryotic cells, which we have, essentially took those in and they became fundamentally part of the cell, and it's passed on through the genome.
Andrew Huberman：嗯，我们对线粒体了解的一件事是，它们一开始是生物学的独立部分，然后我们拥有的真核细胞基本上吸收了这些线粒体，它们基本上成为细胞的一部分，并通过基因组传递。
Glen Jeffery: Mm-hmm.
格伦·杰弗里：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: So, the idea was that mitochondria were separate from our cells at one point, or from cells, and were essentially co-opted by our cells or hijacked our cells, we don't know which.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：所以，我们的想法是，线粒体在某一点上与我们的细胞分离，或者与细胞分离，并且本质上是被我们的细胞选择或劫持了我们的细胞，我们不知道是哪一种。
Glen Jeffery: Mm.
格伦·杰弗里：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And then now, because they share a genome, mitochondrial DNA, and genomic DNA, they're passed along.
Andrew Huberman：然后现在，因为它们共享基因组、线粒体 DNA 和基因组 DNA，所以它们得以传承。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And it makes perfect sense to me as to why that if they're really of bacterial origin, which we think they are, that they would be absorbing or through the water they would be absorbing long-wavelength light because they evolved in water.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：对我来说，如果它们确实是细菌起源的，我们认为它们是细菌起源的，那么它们会吸收或通过水吸收长波长光，因为它们是在水中进化的，这对我来说是完全有道理的。
I think it's worth us just mentioning this business of absorption versus reflection in terms of colors.
我认为值得我们提及颜色吸收与反射的关系。
Glen Jeffery: Mm-hmm
格伦·杰弗里：嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman: I think people might find this interesting, that you said the ocean appears blue because it's absorbing all the red, all the long-wavelength light, and it's reflecting back the short-wavelength blue light.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为人们可能会觉得这很有趣，你说海洋呈现蓝色是因为它吸收了所有的红色、所有的长波长光，并反射回短波长的蓝色光。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Red stuff does the exact opposite.
Andrew Huberman：红色的东西恰恰相反。
Like when we see a red apple, it's doing the exact opposite.
就像当我们看到红苹果时，它的作用恰恰相反。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Andrew Huberman: It's reflecting the red light back towards us the long-wavelength light.
Andrew Huberman：它将红光反射回我们的长波长光。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I think most people probably don't realize that, and then we talk about white containing all the wavelengths, right?
Andrew Huberman：我想大多数人可能没有意识到这一点，然后我们谈论包含所有波长的白色，对吧？
Glen Jeffery: Yes.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: And black absorbing all the wavelengths, right?
Andrew Huberman：黑色吸收所有波长，对吗？
Glen Jeffery: Yes.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: That's the notion.
安德鲁·休伯曼：就是这个概念。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Andrew Huberman: So, it's interesting to think about light as either being absorbed or reflected back, and makes perfect sense to me why the mitochondria would absorb the red light, but of course I'm saying that already hearing the just so story.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，将光视为被吸收或反射回来是很有趣的，这对我来说非常有道理为什么线粒体会吸收红光，但当然我说的是已经听到了这样的故事。
So, it makes sense once you hear it, right?
那么，你一听就明白了，对吧？
Glen Jeffery: Yes.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
It makes sense once you hear it.
一听就觉得有道理。
And why the hell did we not think about that five years ago?
为什么我们五年前没有想到这一点呢？
Scientists make really big mistakes in the pathways that they follow, and they don't talk about their mistakes.
科学家们在他们所遵循的途径中犯了非常大的错误，但他们不谈论他们的错误。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: But their mistakes are every bit as important as their great results.
格伦·杰弗里：但是他们的错误和他们的伟大成绩一样重要。
Why didn't we think about water?
为什么我们没有想到水呢？
Because our minds were trapped at a certain pathway going down a certain alleyway.
因为我们的心被困在一条通往某条小巷的小路上。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: And so, whatever you think about the water hypothesis, the key point is that improvements in function as a consequence of exposure to longer-wavelength light correlate tightly with what water absorbs, right?
格伦·杰弗里：所以，无论你如何看待水假说，关键的一点是，由于暴露于较长波长的光而导致的功能改善与水的吸收密切相关，对吗？
So, okay, that's a big one.
所以，好吧，这是一件大事。
That's a big one.
那是一件大事。
That is there.
那就是那里。
We know that's true.
我们知道这是真的。
You can pull it apart and find there are things called water holes, where there are places where water absorbs a bit more than it does in other places.
你可以把它拆开，发现有一些叫做水洞的东西，有些地方吸收的水比其他地方多一点。
But fundamentally, the absorption of long-wavelength light fits water.
但从根本上来说，长波长光的吸收适合水。
Andrew Huberman: So, much of your work focuses on how long-wavelength light can enhance the function of cells that are not on the surface of the body.
Andrew Huberman：所以，您的大部分工作都集中在长波长光如何增强非身体表面细胞的功能。
They're not on the skin.
它们不在皮肤上。
They're in the eyes, and now we'll get to this data soon, but you published data that long-wavelength light can penetrate very deeply, and even through the body.
它们在眼睛里，现在我们很快就会得到这些数据，但是你发布的数据表明长波长光可以穿透很深，甚至穿过身体。
Glen Jeffery: Mm-hmm.
格伦·杰弗里：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Even when people are wearing a T-shirt, like all the way through the body and impact mitochondria all along the way.
Andrew Huberman：即使人们穿着 T 恤，也会一路穿过身体并一路影响线粒体。
Glen Jeffery: Mm.
格伦·杰弗里：嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: So, maybe we should just talk about long-wavelength light and how it can penetrate through the skin.
Andrew Huberman：所以，也许我们应该只讨论长波长光以及它如何穿透皮肤。
You mentioned that UV is essentially blocked by the skin.
您提到紫外线本质上是被皮肤阻挡的。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: So, if I step outside, for instance, on a nice sunny morning or even a partially overcast morning, but some long-wavelength light is coming through, is it passing all the way through my body and impacting the water and mitochondria of every cell along the way?
安德鲁·胡伯曼：那么，如果我走出去，例如，在一个阳光明媚的早晨，甚至是一个阴天的早晨，但有一些长波长的光穿过，它是否会一路穿过我的身体，并影响沿途每个细胞的水和线粒体？
Is it scattering?
是散射吗？
I mean, how deep does this stuff go?
我的意思是，这些东西有多深？
Glen Jeffery: Okay.
格伦·杰弗里：好的。
So, let's stand you out.
所以，让我们让你脱颖而出。
Let's strip you off and stand you out in sunlight 12:00 in July.
让我们脱掉你的衣服，让你站在七月 12:00 的阳光下。
The vast majority of long-wavelength light is being absorbed in the body, so what we assume is that it has a very, very high scattering ratio.
绝大多数长波长光被人体吸收，因此我们假设它具有非常非常高的散射比。
So, the vast majority of that long-wavelength light it's going to get through into your body, and it's going to bounce around.
所以，绝大多数长波长光都会进入你的身体，并且会反弹。
Andrew Huberman: So, it's going to literally go through the skin.
Andrew Huberman：所以，它确实会穿过皮肤。
Glen Jeffery: It goes through the skin, and let's take the simple experiment.
Glen Jeffery：它会穿过皮肤，让我们来做一个简单的实验。
The simple experiment was you strip people off, and you stand them in front of sunlight, and you put a radiometer on their back.
一个简单的实验就是将人们脱光，然后将他们站在阳光下，然后在他们的背上放一个辐射计。
Andrew Huberman: Tell us what a radiometer is.
Andrew Huberman：告诉我们什么是辐射计。
Glen Jeffery: A radiometer measures the amount of energy coming through, okay?
Glen Jeffery：辐射计测量穿过的能量，好吗？
And then we put a spectrometer on your back as well, which tells us the wavelength.
然后我们还在你的背上放了一个光谱仪，它可以告诉我们波长。
So, what we get from that, the reading we get from that, is that a few percent, a few percent is coming out the back.
所以，我们从中得到的，我们从中得到的读数，是百分之几、百分之几是从后面出来的。
Now, we shouldn't concentrate on that.
现在，我们不应该专注于此。
What we should concentrate on is what happens to the rest because it's not bouncing back from the surface of the skin.
我们应该关注的是其余部分会发生什么，因为它不会从皮肤表面反弹。
Very little bounces back.
很少有反弹。
It's being absorbed.
它正在被吸收。
Andrew Huberman: Amazing.
安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。
Glen Jeffery: Okay.
格伦·杰弗里：好的。
Andrew Huberman: Which is amazing.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这太棒了。
Glen Jeffery: Well, it's very interesting.
格伦·杰弗里：嗯，这非常有趣。
Andrew Huberman: It makes sense, based on the physics of it, but it's amazing, right, that the long wavelength light is actually penetrating our skin, bouncing around in our internal organs, and some's getting out the other side.
Andrew Huberman：根据物理学原理，这是有道理的，但令人惊奇的是，长波长光实际上穿透了我们的皮肤，在我们的内脏器官中弹跳，有些从另一边出去。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: I think that's going to surprise a number of people.
Andrew Huberman：我认为这会让很多人感到惊讶。
Glen Jeffery: In any conversation like this, we need to talk about silos, people coming from different angles at a problem.
Glen Jeffery：在任何这样的对话中，我们都需要谈论孤岛，即人们从不同角度来解决问题。
And I have the advantage of Bob Fosbury working with me.
我有鲍勃·福斯伯里和我一起工作的优势。
Bob was lead for analyzing atmospheres on exoplanets with the European Space Agency.
鲍勃是欧洲航天局分析系外行星大气的负责人。
He had a lot to do with the European use of Hubble, and a lot of his spectrometers are up on the James Webb telescope.
他对欧洲使用哈勃望远镜有很大贡献，他的很多光谱仪都安装在詹姆斯·韦伯望远镜上。
Now, there are super advantages for having someone from another silo to come in, but there are also really annoying issues as well.
现在，让来自另一个筒仓的人加入有超级优势，但也存在非常烦人的问题。
So, I said, "Bob, I only want to measure whether light goes through the body." And he said, "We all know that.
所以，我说，“鲍勃，我只想测量光是否穿过身体。”他说：“我们都知道这一点。
Forget it.
算了。
It's a waste of time." And I said, "You think you know it based on principles of physics.
这是浪费时间。”我说：“你认为你根据物理原理知道它。
I don't know it.
我不知道。
And actually, I don't think you know something until it's published and everybody knows it and can talk about it."
事实上，我不认为你知道某件事，直到它出版并且每个人都知道并可以谈论它。”
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: So, yeah, Bob came along and said, "Yeah, long-wavelength has to go through." But it needed demonstrating.
格伦·杰弗里：所以，是的，鲍勃走过来说，“是的，长波长必须通过。”但它需要展示。
Now, the other thing that Bob did pick up on this and did start to get a lot more interested in it, because then he went through his wardrobe, and he took different layers of clothing from his wardrobe and put long-wavelength lights behind them, and said, "What goes through clothing?" And the amazing thing is long-wavelength light goes through clothing.
现在，鲍勃确实注意到了这一点，并开始对此变得更加感兴趣，因为然后他检查了他的衣柜，他从衣柜里取出了不同层的衣服，并将长波长灯放在它们后面，然后说：“什么穿过衣服？”令人惊奇的是长波长光可以穿透衣服。
Andrew Huberman: It goes through clothing.
Andrew Huberman：它贯穿服装。
Glen Jeffery: It goes through clothing.
Glen Jeffery：它贯穿服装。
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman: Any clothing?
安德鲁·休伯曼：有衣服吗？
Glen Jeffery: Well, if you want to wear rubber, I think not.
格伦·杰弗里：嗯，如果你想穿橡胶，我想不是。
But if you want to wear your standard T-shirt, I think he used six layers, T-shirt.
但如果你想穿标准的T恤，我想他用的是六层T恤。
Andrew Huberman: And does color matter?
Andrew Huberman：颜色重要吗？
Like, I'm wearing a black shirt right now.
就像，我现在穿着一件黑色衬衫。
Glen Jeffery: No. Makes no difference whatsoever.
Glen Jeffery：不。没有任何区别。
And the other thing we do not know, and this is terribly important, there's lots of we don't knows here, is this long-wavelength light bounces around all over the place.
另一件我们不知道的事情，这是非常重要的，这里有很多我们不知道的事情，就是这种长波长光在各处反弹。
So, we have got some long-wavelength light sources, and I think I'm shining this long-wavelength light there, right?
所以，我们有一些长波长光源，我想我在那里照射长波长光，对吧？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: And then when I put my instrumentation up, it's all over the place.
Glen Jeffery：然后当我把仪器放上去时，它就到处都是。
Andrew Huberman: Inside the body.
安德鲁·休伯曼：在身体内部。
Glen Jeffery: And inside the body, inside the room.
格伦·杰弗里：在身体内部，在房间内部。
It's going every...
它每...
I can't control it, not unless I start putting materials like aluminum foil to block it.
我无法控制它，除非我开始用铝箔之类的材料来阻挡它。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: So, when we think about long-wavelength light, its advantages, we talk about using this device or that device.
Glen Jeffery：所以，当我们考虑长波长光及其优点时，我们会谈论使用这个设备或那个设备。
What we also need to think about is, okay, you've got a small device with a small beam of light going here.
我们还需要考虑的是，好吧，你有一个带有小光束的小型设备。
It's bouncing all around the room.
它在房间里到处弹跳。
It's coming in from a different angle and different parts of your body.
它从不同的角度和身体的不同部位进入。
Andrew Huberman: But certainly most concentrated in terms of energy at the point source.
Andrew Huberman：但肯定最集中在点源的能量上。
Glen Jeffery: Most...
格伦·杰弗里：大多数...
Yeah.
是的。
But you cannot assume that the point source is the only source of that long-wavelength light if you're in a confined space.
但是，如果您处于密闭空间中，则不能假设点光源是长波长光的唯一来源。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Well, let's use that as an opportunity to talk about a related study, and then we'll circle back to the let's call it the light passing through the body study.
好吧，让我们以此为契机来讨论相关研究，然后我们将回到我们称之为“光穿过身体”的研究。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Because the study I'm about to mention, I think, is going to be so interesting to people and a little bit shocking and very, very cool, because it's actionable, which is you did a study showing that even if you illuminate just a small portion of the skin with long-wavelength light, it changes the blood glucose response.
Andrew Huberman：因为我认为我要提到的这项研究对人们来说会很有趣，有点令人震惊，而且非常非常酷，因为它是可行的，你所做的一项研究表明，即使你用长波长光照射一小部分皮肤，它也会改变血糖反应。
Literally, blood sugar response is altered by shining red light on the skin.
从字面上看，红光照射皮肤会改变血糖反应。
Glen Jeffery: Mm-hmm.
格伦·杰弗里：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And for years, there were these, let's call them corners of the internet that would say things like, "Oh, when you eat out of doors, it has a different effect on your body than when you eat indoors."
安德鲁·胡伯曼：多年来，有一些，让我们称之为互联网角落，他们会说，“哦，当你在户外吃饭时，它对你的身体的影响与你在室内吃饭时不同。”
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Andrew Huberman: But there are too many variables there, right?
Andrew Huberman：但是变量太多了，对吧？
Because when you eat out of doors, typically it's at a picnic, and then you have greenery, and there's socializing.
因为当你在户外吃饭时，通常是在野餐时，然后你就有绿色植物，还有社交活动。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是啊，是啊，是啊。
Andrew Huberman: And no one's going to fund a proper study to parse every variable in a picnic versus an indoor cafeteria.
Andrew Huberman：没有人会资助一项适当的研究来解析野餐与室内自助餐厅的每个变量。
Glen Jeffery: No.
格伦·杰弗里：不。
Andrew Huberman: And it's not worth the taxpayer dollars, frankly.
Andrew Huberman：坦率地说，这不值得纳税人的钱。
You did the right study, which was to shine light on, what was it, the back?
你做了正确的研究，那就是用光照射，那是什么，背面？
Glen Jeffery: It was on a small area of the back, yeah.
Glen Jeffery：是的，它位于背部的一小块区域。
And I must make it very clear, first of all, the person whose idea this was my colleague Mike Powner.
首先，我必须说清楚，这个想法的提出者是我的同事迈克·波纳。
And Mike's thought processes were very, very clear.
迈克的思维过程非常非常清晰。
We were on a long drive to do some research well out of London, and that's a great time for...
我们正在长途驾车离开伦敦进行一些研究，这对......来说是一个美好的时光。
Because the journey starts at 5:00 in the morning, it's a great time for gossip.
因为旅程从早上 5:00 开始，所以这是闲聊的好时机。
It's a great time for wild ideas, for streams of consciousness, which sometimes are very important in science.
现在是疯狂想法和意识流的好时机，这有时在科学中非常重要。
And it was Mike who said to me, "If we make mitochondria work harder, then they need glucose, and they need oxygen." So, pause while Glen, who is driving, kind of has to catch up on this idea.
迈克对我说：“如果我们让线粒体更加努力地工作，那么它们就需要葡萄糖，并且需要氧气。”所以，暂停一下，格伦正在开车，他必须赶上这个想法。
I'm generally about a mile behind him intellectually.
一般来说，我在智力上落后他一英里左右。
And I mean, yeah, yeah.
我的意思是，是的，是的。
So, he said, "Well, let's not make idiots of ourselves.
所以，他说：“好吧，我们别把自己当傻子了。
Let's do it with bumblebees." So, our first experiment was to increase...
让我们用大黄蜂来做吧。”所以，我们的第一个实验是增加......
Andrew Huberman: Of course, bumblebees.
安德鲁·休伯曼：当然，大黄蜂。
Yeah.
是的。
Glen Jeffery: Of course, why not?
格伦·杰弗里：当然，为什么不呢？
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Glen Jeffery: First experiment was on bumblebees because it didn't involve people.
格伦·杰弗里：第一个实验是在大黄蜂上进行的，因为它不涉及人类。
It was simple to do.
做起来很简单。
And all we did was we starved bumblebees overnight, gave them a standard blood glucose test.
我们所做的就是让大黄蜂挨饿过夜，然后给它们进行标准的血糖测试。
Andrew Huberman: Sounds a lot harder than working on humans.
Andrew Huberman：听起来比研究人类要困难得多。
Glen Jeffery: No, it's not.
格伦·杰弗里：不，不是。
You just give them a little bit of glucose because they have that and then go, "Dub, dub, dub, dub, dub," and their blood glucose goes up.
你只要给他们一点葡萄糖，因为他们有葡萄糖，然后“滴，滴，滴，滴，滴”，他们的血糖就会上升。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
Glen Jeffery: We gave them red light or blue light.
格伦·杰弗里：我们给了他们红光或蓝光。
We give them red light, and their blood glucose does not go up as much.
我们给他们发出红光，他们的血糖就没有上升那么多。
We give them blue light, and their blood glucose goes very high.
我们给他们蓝光，他们的血糖就会变得非常高。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
So they're using more of the energy.
所以他们使用了更多的能源。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
So...
所以...
Andrew Huberman: In the red light condition.
Andrew Huberman：在红灯状态下。
Glen Jeffery: In the red light condition.
Glen Jeffery：在红灯状态下。
But in the blue light condition, we're slowing their mitochondria down, and so there is more glucose flowing around.
但在蓝光条件下，我们会减慢线粒体的速度，因此有更多的葡萄糖在周围流动。
I should say that sampling the blood in a bee is a little bit difficult, but you basically pull off one of the antennae, and you squeeze a bee, and you get a little piece of...
我应该说，对蜜蜂进行血液采样有点困难，但你基本上会拉下一根触角，然后挤压一只蜜蜂，然后你会得到一小块......
Andrew Huberman: All the bee lovers out there are cringing.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：所有的蜜蜂爱好者都在畏缩。
Glen Jeffery: But we went to the chemist, and we bought just the standard blood glucose, the test that you can get for a few dollars.
格伦·杰弗里：但是我们去了药店，只买了标准血糖，只需几美元就可以进行测试。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: We got a result.
格伦·杰弗里：我们得到了结果。
Therefore, it's worth moving forward.
因此，值得继续前进。
Therefore, we got the ethical permission.
因此，我们获得了道德许可。
I can't do the experiment on blue light.
我无法用蓝光做实验。
I regard that as unethical.
我认为这是不道德的。
Andrew Huberman: Really?
安德鲁·休伯曼：真的吗？
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
I don't...
我不...
Andrew Huberman: We're under blue light all day.
Andrew Huberman：我们一整天都在蓝光下。
I'm absolutely convinced that being under blue light or short-wavelength shifted light all day is altering blood glucose in ways that are detrimental.
我绝对相信，整天处于蓝光或短波长移动光下会以有害的方式改变血糖。
Glen Jeffery: I complete...
格伦·杰弗里：我完成了……
Andrew Huberman: But in any case, before I rant about that, what happened in human?
安德鲁·胡伯曼：但无论如何，在我咆哮之前，人类发生了什么？
Glen Jeffery: So, in the humans, we did a standard blood glucose tolerance test, which is horrible.
格伦·杰弗里：所以，我们对人类进行了标准的血糖耐量测试，这很可怕。
So you get people to starve overnight, they come in, they drink this big sort of cup of vial glucose.
所以你让人们挨饿过夜，他们进来，喝一大杯小瓶葡萄糖。
So, we really pump up the glucose in their body.
所以，我们确实增加了他们体内的葡萄糖。
And then we prick their fingers at regular intervals and sample their blood, and see how their blood glucose level changes.
然后我们定期刺破他们的手指并采样他们的血液，看看他们的血糖水平如何变化。
And your blood glucose level will peak in about 40 to 60 minutes.
您的血糖水平将在大约 40 至 60 分钟内达到峰值。
It's hard getting subjects for this one.
很难找到这个主题。
And we also put a tube up their nose so we could detect how much oxygen they were consuming.
我们还在他们的鼻子上放了一根管子，这样我们就可以检测他们消耗了多少氧气。
You're calling on friends.
你正在拜访朋友。
I mean, I even dragged my son in as a subject for that one.
我的意思是，我什至把我的儿子也拉进来作为那个主题。
The result when we gave people a burst of red light beforehand to stimulate their mitochondria was super clear.
当我们预先给人们发出红光来刺激他们的线粒体时，结果非常清晰。
It wasn't ambiguous.
这并不含糊。
The blood glucose levels went up, but they didn't peak anywhere near as seriously as they did without the red light.
血糖水平上升了，但并没有像没有红灯时那样严重达到峰值。
Now, I'm told that the level of your blood glucose is not necessarily a massive issue for concern.
现在，我被告知您的血糖水平不一定是一个值得关注的大问题。
What is an issue for concern is it spiking, how much it spikes.
值得关注的一个问题是它的峰值，以及它峰值的程度。
And the reduction in the spike was of the order of, it was just over 20%, if I remember correctly.
如果我没记错的话，峰值的减少量约为 20% 多一点。
Andrew Huberman: Where was the light shone on the body?
Andrew Huberman：光线照射在尸体的哪里？
Glen Jeffery: It was shone on the back, and it covered...
格伦·杰弗里：它的背面闪闪发亮，它覆盖了......
I forgot what the percentage of the body area was.
我忘了身体面积的百分比是多少。
I did this calculation four or five times because it was ridiculously small.
我计算了四五次，因为它小得离谱。
So, we were stimulating a very limited area of the body, but we got a systemic response.
因此，我们刺激了身体非常有限的区域，但我们得到了全身反应。
There was no way that the mitochondria in that little patch of skin was having that effect.
那一小块皮肤中的线粒体不可能有这种效果。
But it fits into a wider notion that all these mitochondria act as a community, and we now know that.
但这符合一个更广泛的概念，即所有这些线粒体都充当一个社区，我们现在知道这一点。
That's coming all from different corners.
这些都来自不同的角落。
They do things together.
他们一起做事。
It takes them a little time to have a conversation about it, but they act together.
他们花了一点时间来讨论这个问题，但他们一起行动。
And if we're doing something which was over one to two hours, that's long enough for them to hold that conversation.
如果我们正在做的事情超过一到两个小时，那么这段时间就足以让他们进行对话。
I'd love to know more about that.
我很想了解更多相关信息。
Andrew Huberman: Do you recall whether the subjects could feel heat from the infrared light?
Andrew Huberman：你还记得受试者是否能感受到红外光的热量吗？
Glen Jeffery: No.
格伦·杰弗里：不。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
So they're not feeling heat, so that removes also a potential placebo effect of some sort.
所以他们感觉不到热，所以这也消除了某种潜在的安慰剂效应。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Do you recall just roughly what the area of illumination was?
Andrew Huberman：您还记得照明区域的大致范围吗？
Was it...
是不是...
Glen Jeffery: It's in the publication.
Glen Jeffery：在出版物中。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
Glen Jeffery: But let's go like this.
格伦·杰弗里：但是我们就这样吧。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
So for those just listening, maybe like a four-by-six rectangle.
所以对于那些只是听的人来说，可能就像一个四乘六的矩形。
Glen Jeffery: Four-by-six rectangle makes sense.
Glen Jeffery：四乘六的矩形很有意义。
Andrew Huberman: Four-by-six inches.
安德鲁·休伯曼：四乘六英寸。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah, yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的，是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, for all those metric system folks out there.
Andrew Huberman：是的，对于所有使用公制系统的人来说。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: We're on common ground here given you're from the UK.
Andrew Huberman：鉴于您来自英国，我们在这里有共同点。
Glen Jeffery: But we're not unique in finding this.
Glen Jeffery：但我们并不是唯一发现这一点的人。
It's just that other people are finding things with red light that are sitting behind different walls.
只是其他人正在寻找位于不同墙壁后面的带有红光的东西。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: So John Mitrofanis, he did most of his research in Australia.
格伦·杰弗里：约翰·米特罗法尼斯 (John Mitrofanis) 的大部分研究都是在澳大利亚进行的。
He induces Parkinson's disease in primates, which you can do pretty much overnight with a drug, and then he was giving red light to different parts of the body.
他在灵长类动物中诱发帕金森病，用药物几乎可以在一夜之间完成，然后他向身体的不同部位发出红光。
Now, Parkinson's disease originates from a very small nucleus deep in the brain stem, but he was reducing the symptoms of Parkinson's disease in these primates very significantly with lights that were being shone on the abdomen.
现在，帕金森病起源于脑干深处的一个非常小的细胞核，但他通过照射腹部的光非常显着地减轻了这些灵长类动物的帕金森病症状。
So in any one of these, you take in isolation, and there are many of these studies, and you go, "Yeah, maybe.
因此，在其中任何一项中，你都会孤立地进行研究，并且有很多这样的研究，然后你会说：“是的，也许吧。
Yeah."
是的。”
Andrew Huberman: What does he think it was doing?
安德鲁·休伯曼：他认为它在做什么？
I mean, clearly it's not rescuing the dopamine neurons that degenerate in Parkinson's, but maybe it's rescuing components of the pathway?
我的意思是，显然它不是在拯救帕金森氏症中退化的多巴胺神经元，但也许它是在拯救该通路的组成部分？
Glen Jeffery: It could be rescuing components of the pathway.
格伦·杰弗里（Glen Jeffery）：它可能正在拯救该途径的组成部分。
I think that we know that red light, and we're using that term very loosely, and perhaps we shouldn't.
我认为我们知道红灯，并且我们非常宽松地使用这个术语，也许我们不应该这样做。
We know that long-wavelength light reduces the magnitude of cell death in the body.
我们知道，长波长光可以减少体内细胞死亡的程度。
Andrew Huberman: Mm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Glen Jeffery: Cell death is very often initiated apoptosis by mitochondria.
Glen Jeffery：细胞死亡通常是由线粒体引发的细胞凋亡。
When mitochondria get fed up and the...
当线粒体厌倦时......
I see them as batteries.
我将它们视为电池。
When the charge on the battery goes down low enough, they put their hand up, and they say, "Time to die."
当电池电量足够低时，他们举起手，说：“是时候死了。”
Andrew Huberman: And I think they actually present a molecular eat me signal which is interesting.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为他们实际上呈现了一种有趣的分子“吃我”信号。
Glen Jeffery: Yes.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Andrew Huberman: When we talk about cells dying, we think about it as sort of they go from a shout to a whimper, and then they get cleaned up.
Andrew Huberman：当我们谈论细胞死亡时，我们会认为它们从喊叫变成呜咽，然后被清理掉。
Like, they die.
就像，他们死了。
But actually, they solicit for their own death with this eat me signal.
但实际上，他们用“吃掉我”的信号来招致自己的死亡。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
They'll get opsonized for the people that anything about the immune system, opsonization.
他们会为人们提供任何有关免疫系统的调理作用。
They're similar things.
它们是相似的东西。
So if I understand correctly, he induced an insult to these dopamine neurons, and then he used red light shone on the abdomen to offset some of the degeneration that would have occurred.
所以，如果我理解正确的话，他对这些多巴胺神经元造成了损伤，然后他用红光照射腹部来抵消一些可能发生的退化。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
Glen Jeffery: Now, that again fits into the wider spectrum of other research that's not put together.
格伦·杰弗里：现在，这再次适合更广泛的其他未整合的研究。
So that was John, and John has been a big leader in red light dementia and Parkinson's disease, and a lot of it in primate models, which means it's got a lot of validity to it.
这就是约翰，约翰一直是红光痴呆和帕金森氏病以及灵长类动物模型研究领域的重要领导者，这意味着它具有很大的有效性。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, they're similar to us.
Andrew Huberman：是的，他们和我们很相似。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah, they're very...
格伦·杰弗里：是的，他们非常......
Andrew Huberman: We're us to them.
Andrew Huberman：对于他们来说，我们就是我们。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Glen Jeffery: Another experiment we did was...
格伦·杰弗里：我们做的另一个实验是......
Over life, you will lose a third of your rod photoreceptors in your retina.
在一生中，您将失去视网膜中三分之一的视杆光感受器。
Andrew Huberman: Maybe just explain for people what the rod system does.
Andrew Huberman：也许只是向人们解释一下杆系统的作用。
Yeah.
是的。
Glen Jeffery: Okay.
格伦·杰弗里：好的。
The rod system is the majority of photoreceptors are rods.
视杆系统大多数感光细胞都是视杆细胞。
They're the receptors that you use when you're dark-adapted, which a lot of us aren't very much these days.
它们是你在适应黑暗时使用的受体，而现在我们很多人都不太喜欢这种受体。
So we've got our cones, which deal with color and deal with bright light.
所以我们有了处理颜色和明亮光线的视锥细胞。
Then, as we turn the lights down, we start to use our rods.
然后，当我们关掉灯时，我们开始使用我们的竿。
So loads and loads of rods, relatively few cones.
因此，杆的负载和负载相对较少，锥体的负载也很大。
Andrew Huberman: What I usually tell students is this is like in the old days when everyone didn't have a smartphone near their bed, you wake up in the middle of the night, and you need to use the restroom.
Andrew Huberman：我通常告诉学生的是，这就像过去每个人的床边都没有智能手机，你在半夜醒来，你需要使用洗手间。
You can navigate to the restroom.
您可以导航到洗手间。
You might flick the light on in the restroom.
你可以打开卫生间的灯。
I don't recommend doing that.
我不建议这样做。
It'll quash your melatonin unless it's a red light.
除非是红灯，否则它会抑制你的褪黑激素。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Or you go out on a hike, and you don't bring what we call a flashlight, Glen.
安德鲁·休伯曼：或者你出去徒步旅行，但你没有带我们所说的手电筒，格伦。
You guys call it a torch.
你们管它叫火炬。
Glen Jeffery: Yes.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: But as you come back, your eyes start to adapt.
Andrew Huberman：但是当你回来时，你的眼睛开始适应。
It's getting dark.
天快黑了。
You can still see the outline of the trail.
依然可以看到小路的轮廓。
There's not starlight yet.
还没有星光。
But you're able to, as you say, dark adapt, and you can see enough of what you need to see.
但正如你所说，你能够适应黑暗，并且你可以看到足够多你需要看到的东西。
You're using your rod system.
你正在使用你的杆系统。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
The key thing here is rods are very numerous.
这里的关键是杆的数量非常多。
Cones are not so.
锥体则不然。
So what happens then, for instance, if we take aging animals and we just expose them to red light every day?
那么，例如，如果我们每天将衰老的动物暴露在红光下，会发生什么呢？
We give them a burst of red light, and then we count the number of rods they've got when they reach old age, and the result is super clear.
我们给它们发出一阵红光，然后我们计算它们年老时拥有的杆数，结果非常清楚。
We have reduced the pace of cell death in the retina, okay?
我们已经降低了视网膜细胞死亡的速度，好吗？
So, red light is affecting mitochondria.
因此，红光正在影响线粒体。
Mitochondria have the ability to signal cell death, and we're drawing back the probability of that cell dying.
线粒体具有发出细胞死亡信号的能力，我们正在降低该细胞死亡的可能性。
Now, we did that in mice.
现在，我们在老鼠身上做到了这一点。
We did it on a lot of mice.
我们在很多老鼠身上都做了这个实验。
It was a killer of an experiment to keep animals going forever.
这是一项让动物永远生存的实验的杀手。
And then I forced one of my graduate students basically to go one, two, three, four, and count photoreceptor outer segments.
然后我强迫我的一名研究生基本上去一、二、三、四，并计算感光器外节。
She was a hero.
她是一位英雄。
So, we can use red light to reduce the pace of cell death.
因此，我们可以利用红光来减缓细胞死亡的速度。
So, I am not too surprised that John Mitrofanis would have reduced the pace of cell death in the substantia nigra, that nucleus that gives rise to Parkinson's disease.
因此，约翰·米特罗法尼斯（John Mitrofanis）会降低黑质（引起帕金森病的细胞核）细胞死亡的速度，我对此并不太感到惊讶。
I'm seeing that coming out of loads of different labs, things that are all consistent with that kind of story.
我看到来自不同实验室的大量结果都与此类故事一致。
The other thing that I think you can start to address is, if you've got bad mitochondria, say, very loose term, if you've got bad mitochondria, as you do have in Parkinson's disease, they're bad, they're not functioning very well, on their way to death, are they influencing other parts of your body?
我认为你可以开始解决的另一件事是，如果你的线粒体不好，比如说，非常宽松的术语，如果你的线粒体不好，就像帕金森病那样，它们很糟糕，功能不太好，正在走向死亡，它们会影响你身体的其他部分吗？
Parkinson's patients, you think, well, okay, they're all going to have movement disorders.
帕金森病患者，你想，好吧，好吧，他们都会有运动障碍。
But in actual fact, a lot of Parkinson's patients have a lot of other things that are going on in them, and we're minded to think that as good information can be passed to mitochondria and can be shared in that community, so can bad information.
但事实上，很多帕金森氏症患者体内还存在很多其他问题，我们认为，正如好的信息可以传递到线粒体并可以在该社区中共享一样，坏的信息也可以。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: If you really upset mitochondria in one place, then other things are changing in different places.
格伦·杰弗里：如果你真的在一个地方扰乱了线粒体，那么不同地方的其他事情也会发生变化。
So, the big takeaway here, and it's not controversial to say, I've heard lots of people saying it, and I didn't say it originally, is that they're a community.
所以，这里最重要的一点是，我听到很多人这么说，而且我最初没有这么说，这是没有争议的，那就是他们是一个社区。
You can't deal with them in isolation.
你不能孤立地应对它们。
Andrew Huberman: Even across cells in different areas of the body, they're a community.
Andrew Huberman：即使跨身体不同部位的细胞，它们也是一个社区。
Glen Jeffery: They are a community.
格伦·杰弗里：他们是一个社区。
Andrew Huberman: Probably by secreting certain things that support each other.
安德鲁·休伯曼：可能是通过秘密某些相互支持的事情来实现的。
Maybe I've heard some evidence that mitochondria can actually be released from cells.
也许我听说过一些证据表明线粒体实际上可以从细胞中释放出来。
Glen Jeffery: Oh, yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman: Different, although not entirely different than neurotransmitters are released between cells and communicate between cells.
Andrew Huberman：不同，尽管不是完全不同，神经递质在细胞之间释放并在细胞之间进行交流。
Glen Jeffery: Mm-hmm.
格伦·杰弗里：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Very interesting when one thinks about mitochondria of having maybe bacterial origin, again, that our cells co-opted or they co-opted us.
Andrew Huberman：当人们想到线粒体可能具有细菌起源时，这非常有趣，我们的细胞选择了我们，或者它们选择了我们。
We don't know, again, the direction there.
我们再次不知道那里的方向。
I have a question about how far long-wavelength light can penetrate and through what tissues.
我有一个问题，长波长光可以穿透多远以及穿过哪些组织。
I realize that in the studies we've been talking about, it's long-wavelength light exposure to the back, lowering the blood glucose response.
我意识到，在我们一直在谈论的研究中，长波长光照射在背部，会降低血糖反应。
Glen Jeffery: Yes.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Or to the abdomen, offsetting some of the degeneration as it relates to this Parkinson's model.
Andrew Huberman：或者腹部，抵消一些与帕金森病模型相关的退化。
If I were to take a long-wavelength light and put it close to my head, would it penetrate the skull?
如果我将长波长光放在靠近头部的地方，它会穿透头骨吗？
Glen Jeffery: Oh, definitely.
格伦·杰弗里：哦，当然。
If you look at a long-wave light source, and again, this is published, Bob Fosbury did this, he put his hand on one, comes straight through his hand, but the interesting thing is you can't see the bones.
如果你看一个长波光源，再一次，这是发布的，鲍勃·福斯伯里这样做了，他把手放在一个光源上，直接穿过他的手，但有趣的是你看不到骨头。
It's passing through the bone.
它穿过骨头。
So, that led me to go into grabbing a few skulls, and yeah, it's really not affected that much by bone.
所以，这让我开始抓一些头骨，是的，它确实没有受到骨头的影响那么多。
I was talking to some audiology guys in Cambridge who wanted to use red light, and they were taking, I think, heads or something, and looking at them.
我正在和剑桥的一些听力学专家交谈，他们想要使用红光，我认为他们正在拿头或其他东西来观察它们。
And they were shining red light in the eye, and they say, "We can see it in the ear."
他们的眼睛里闪烁着红光，他们说：“我们可以在耳朵里看到它。”
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: "I can see it," and vice versa.
格伦·杰弗里：“我能看到它”，反之亦然。
So, there are things that red light does not, will not, doesn't go through.
所以，有些东西是红光不能、不会、不能穿过的。
So, it is absorbed by deoxygenated blood.
因此，它被脱氧的血液吸收。
So, you get fantastic pictures of your veins in your hand or in your head.
因此，您可以获得手上或头上的静脉的精彩照片。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: But the most obvious thing that you think is that long-wavelength light would be blocked by something thick, like a skull.
格伦·杰弗里：但你认为最明显的事情是长波长光会被厚的东西阻挡，比如头骨。
The answer is no.
答案是否定的。
Andrew Huberman: So, going back to our example of the ocean appearing blue because of blue light getting reflected back and red light getting absorbed.
安德鲁·休伯曼：那么，回到我们的例子，海洋呈现蓝色是因为蓝光被反射回来而红光被吸收。
Glen Jeffery: Mm.
格伦·杰弗里：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I think this is very important to kind of double-click on in people's minds.
Andrew Huberman：我认为这对于人们心目中的双击来说非常重要。
Because people will see an image, for instance, and I'll put a link to it from this recent publication of yours, of red light and other, excuse me, long wavelength light, not just red light being shown on a hand.
因为人们会看到一张图像，例如，我会在您最近发表的文章中添加一个链接，其中包含红光和其他光，请原谅，长波长光，而不仅仅是手上显示的红光。
And indeed, you don't see the bones, and you see the vasculature, this deoxygenated blood.
事实上，你看不到骨头，但你看到的是脉管系统，这种脱氧的血液。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: When people see a structure under a particular wavelength of light, the kind of reflex is to assume that those structures are the ones that are using the light.
Andrew Huberman：当人们在特定波长的光下看到一个结构时，这种反射是假设这些结构正在使用光。
But in fact, it's the exact opposite.
但事实上，情况恰恰相反。
Glen Jeffery: Exactly the other way around.
格伦·杰弗里：恰恰相反。
Andrew Huberman: It's the stuff you don't see, right, that it's passing through.
Andrew Huberman：这是你看不到的东西，对吧，它正在穿过。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And I think for a lot of people, that's just kind of counterintuitive.
Andrew Huberman：我认为对于很多人来说，这有点违反直觉。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Andrew Huberman: So they'll see an image of the veins carrying that deoxygenated blood, and they'll say, "Oh, red light is impacting the veins," right?
安德鲁·胡伯曼：所以他们会看到携带脱氧血液的静脉图像，他们会说，“哦，红光正在影响静脉，”对吗？
Glen Jeffery: Mm.
格伦·杰弗里：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: But the interesting thing is that it's passing through...
安德鲁·休伯曼：但有趣的是，它正在穿越……
that is interesting in itself, but it's passing through all these other structures.
这本身很有趣，但它正在穿越所有其他结构。
And to me, the idea that when I go out on a sunny day, because the sun includes long wavelength light, or were I to be near a long wavelength light-emitting device, that it's actually getting into the deep brain tissue through the skull.
对我来说，当我在阳光明媚的日子出去时，因为太阳包含长波长的光，或者如果我靠近长波长的发光设备，它实际上会通过头骨进入深层脑组织。
Glen Jeffery: Mm.
格伦·杰弗里：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I think for most people, it's just not intuitive to think about light passing through things that are solid in that way.
Andrew Huberman：我认为对于大多数人来说，光以这种方式穿过固体物体是不直观的。
Glen Jeffery: Yes, and I had exactly the same problem.
格伦·杰弗里：是的，我也遇到了完全相同的问题。
I had exactly the same problem.
我有完全相同的问题。
If you put a radiometer and a spectrometer to measure the energy and the wavelength on one side of someone's head and a light source on the other side of someone's head, you get a clear result.
如果你把辐射计和光谱仪放在某人头部的一侧来测量能量和波长，并将光源放在某人头部的另一侧，你就会得到清晰的结果。
Now, interestingly, it's not a sideline, it's actually a very important issue.
现在，有趣的是，这不是一个副业，它实际上是一个非常重要的问题。
A biomedical engineer, Ilias Tachtsidis at UCL, has used this because he works on, some of his work is on neonates that have had stroke.
伦敦大学学院的生物医学工程师 Ilias Tachtsidis 使用了这种方法，因为他的一些工作是针对患有中风的新生儿。
And he takes the neonate and actually does exactly that experiment.
他带着新生儿做了同样的实验。
He passes red light wavelengths of light through the side of the neonate's head and records them coming out the other side, and he can use that as a metric of how well the mitochondria are functioning in that damaged brain.
他让红光波长的光穿过新生儿头部的一侧，并记录从另一侧发出的光，他可以用它作为受损大脑中线粒体功能的衡量标准。
Andrew Huberman: Mm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Glen Jeffery: And the readouts that he gets are readouts that are indicative of the potential survival of that neonate.
格伦·杰弗里：他得到的读数表明该新生儿的潜在生存率。
Andrew Huberman: Wow.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哇。
Glen Jeffery: Now, I think there are lots of wows here.
Glen Jeffery：现在，我认为这里有很多令人惊叹的地方。
First of all, he's got his work into a major London teaching and research hospital.
首先，他的工作进入了伦敦一家大型教学和研究医院。
He's got it into kids, and we've acknowledged that this is not dangerous, right?
他对孩子们很感兴趣，我们也承认这并不危险，对吧？
He's gone through loads of ethics committees.
他经历过很多道德委员会的审查。
Andrew Huberman: The long wavelength light, red and out towards infrared and near-infrared, is non-ionizing.
Andrew Huberman：长波长光（红色且朝向红外和近红外）是非电离的。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Right?
安德鲁·休伯曼：对吗？
It's not altering the DNA of the cells.
它不会改变细胞的 DNA。
Glen Jeffery: No.
格伦·杰弗里：不。
Andrew Huberman: It's contributing to the healthy function of the mitochondria.
Andrew Huberman：它有助于线粒体的健康功能。
Forgive me for interrupting.
请原谅我打扰。
Glen Jeffery: No, it's a good point.
格伦·杰弗里：不，这是一个很好的观点。
Andrew Huberman: Because when people hear about light passing through a baby's head in order to make that kid healthier, I mean, it's spectacular.
Andrew Huberman：因为当人们听说光线穿过婴儿的头部以使孩子更健康时，我的意思是，这真是太壮观了。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I love that this is being done at such a fine institution and so carefully.
Andrew Huberman：我喜欢在如此优秀的机构如此仔细地进行这项工作。
But the reason it's safe is because that's long wavelength light.
但它之所以安全是因为它是长波长的光。
Glen Jeffery: Long wavelength.
Glen Jeffery：长波长。
Andrew Huberman: Were this to be short wavelength light, we have no idea what it would be doing.
Andrew Huberman：如果这是短波长光，我们不知道它会做什么。
I mean, babies have very thin skulls.
我的意思是，婴儿的头骨非常薄。
UV would be, who knows?
紫外线会是，谁知道呢？
X-rays, certainly you would never, ever, ever want to do this.
X 光检查，你肯定永远、永远、永远不想这样做。
So yeah, I think it's important that people really remember what we're talking about passing through.
所以，是的，我认为人们真正记住我们正在谈论的经历是很重要的。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
Yeah.
是的。
Glen Jeffery: And I think that it's a very important point because I have gone through so many ethics committees to shine long wavelength light to do various things, including on people that are...
格伦·杰弗里：我认为这是非常重要的一点，因为我已经通过了很多道德委员会来照射长波长光来做各种事情，包括对那些......
They've got problems, or they've got sight problems.
他们有问题，或者视力有问题。
They're patients.
他们是病人。
We've actually also done it with children.
我们实际上也对孩子们做过这样的事情。
And we've got through ethics committees really with very, very little comment.
我们通过了道德委员会，但几乎没有得到任何评论。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: Because on many of the ethics committees, they're physicists and they understand the issue.
格伦·杰弗里：因为在许多道德委员会中，他们都是物理学家，他们理解这个问题。
Andrew Huberman: By now, I'm sure that many of you have heard me say that I've been taking AG1 for more than a decade, and indeed, that's true.
Andrew Huberman：到目前为止，我相信你们很多人都听我说过我服用 AG1 已有十多年了，事实上，这是真的。
The reason I started taking AG1 way back in 2012, and the reason why I still continue to take it every single day, is because AG1 is, to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market.
我早在 2012 年就开始服用 AG1，并且至今仍然每天服用，因为据我所知，AG1 是市场上质量最高、最全面的基础营养补充剂。
What that means is that it contains not just vitamins and minerals, but also probiotics, prebiotics, and adaptogens to cover any gaps that you might have in your diet while also providing support for a demanding life.
这意味着它不仅含有维生素和矿物质，还含有益生菌、益生元和适应原，可以弥补您饮食中可能存在的任何空白，同时也为高要求的生活提供支持。
Given the probiotics and prebiotics in AG1, it also helps support a healthy gut microbiome.
鉴于 AG1 中的益生菌和益生元，它还有助于支持健康的肠道微生物组。
The gut microbiome consists of trillions of little microorganisms that line your digestive tract and impact things such as your immune status, your metabolic health, your hormone health, and much more.
肠道微生物组由数万亿个小微生物组成，它们排列在您的消化道中，并影响您的免疫状态、代谢健康、激素健康等。
Taking AG1 consistently helps my digestion, keeps my immune system strong, and it ensures that my mood and mental focus are always at their best.
持续服用 AG1 有助于我的消化，保持我的免疫系统强大，并确保我的情绪和精神焦点始终处于最佳状态。
AG1 is now available in three new flavors: berry, citrus, and tropical.
AG1 现已推出三种新口味：浆果味、柑橘味和热带味。
And while I've always loved the AG1 original flavor, especially with a bit of lemon juice added, I'm really enjoying the new berry flavor in particular.
虽然我一直很喜欢 AG1 原味，尤其是添加了一点柠檬汁，但我真的特别喜欢新的浆果味。
It tastes great, but then again, I do love all the flavors.
味道很棒，但话又说回来，我确实喜欢所有的口味。
If you'd like to try AG1 and try these new flavors, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1 并尝试这些新口味，您可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 申请特别优惠。
Just go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get started.
只需访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 即可开始。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Rorra.
今天的节目也是罗拉给我们带来的。
Rorra makes what I believe are the best water filters on the market.
我认为 Rorra 制造的是市场上最好的滤水器。
It's an unfortunate reality, but tap water often contains contaminants that negatively impact our health.
这是一个不幸的现实，但自来水通常含有对我们的健康产生负面影响的污染物。
In fact, a 2020 study by the Environmental Working Group estimated that more than 200 million Americans are exposed to PFAS chemicals, also known as forever chemicals, through drinking of tap water.
事实上，环境工作组 2020 年的一项研究估计，超过 2 亿美国人通过饮用自来水接触到 PFAS 化学物质（也称为永久化学物质）。
These forever chemicals are linked to serious health issues such as hormone disruption, gut microbiome disruption, fertility issues, and many other health problems.
这些永久性化学物质与严重的健康问题有关，例如激素紊乱、肠道微生物组破坏、生育问题和许多其他健康问题。
The Environmental Working Group has also shown that over 122 million Americans drink tap water with high levels of chemicals known to cause cancer.
环境工作组还表明，超过 1.22 亿美国人饮用的自来水含有大量已知致癌化学物质。
It's for all these reasons that I'm thrilled to have Rorra as a sponsor of this podcast.
出于所有这些原因，我很高兴 Rorra 作为这个播客的赞助商。
I've been using the Rorra countertop system for almost a year now.
我使用 Rorra 台面系统已经快一年了。
Rorra's filtration technology removes harmful substances, including endocrine disruptors and disinfection byproducts, while preserving beneficial minerals like magnesium and calcium.
Rorra 的过滤技术可去除有害物质，包括内分泌干扰物和消毒副产物，同时保留镁和钙等有益矿物质。
It requires no installation or plumbing, it's built from medical-grade stainless steel, and its sleek design fits beautifully on your countertop.
它不需要安装或管道，由医用级不锈钢制成，其时尚的设计非常适合您的台面。
In fact, I consider it a welcome addition to my kitchen.
事实上，我认为它对我的厨房来说是一个受欢迎的补充。
It looks great, and the water is delicious.
看起来很棒，水也很美味。
If you'd like to try Rorra, you can go to rorra.com/huberman and get an exclusive discount.
如果您想尝试 Rorra，可以访问 rorra.com/huberman 并获得独家折扣。
Again, that's Rorra, R-O-R-R-A.com/huberman.
再说一次，那是 Rorra，R-O-R-R-A.com/huberman。
Let's talk about the two sort of bookends of age.
我们来谈谈年龄的两种书挡。
You just mentioned babies, and we'll return to babies, children, and youth.
你刚才提到了婴儿，我们将回到婴儿、儿童和青少年。
Let's talk about some of the work you've done on retinal aging and using long wavelength light.
让我们谈谈您在视网膜老化和使用长波长光方面所做的一些工作。
I'm being very careful with my language here, because if I say red, people think you have to see it, but there's red, near-infrared, NIR, it's typically shown as NIR, infrared light.
我在这里的语言非常谨慎，因为如果我说红色，人们认为你必须看到它，但有红色，近红外，NIR，它通常显示为 NIR，红外光。
And I think we batch those when we say long wavelength light.
我认为当我们说长波长光时，我们会批量处理这些光。
It's going, what?
就这样了，什么？
650 nanometers would be red out to, I guess it's as far as 900 nanometers or so?
650纳米会变红，我猜应该是900纳米左右吧？
Glen Jeffery: Yeah, and then beyond 900 is infrared.
Glen Jeffery：是的，超过 900 就是红外线。
So we've got the near-infrared, and we've got the infrared.
所以我们有近红外线，还有红外线。
Now, you're right.
现在，你是对的。
We've got to start defining these terms a little bit more clearly.
我们必须开始更清楚地定义这些术语。
But I think for nearly all of the research we're talking about, we're talking about where vision stops, which is around 700, and we're talking about the near-infrared, which is, for practical purposes, is going up to around 900.
但我认为对于我们正在谈论的几乎所有研究，我们谈论的是视力停止的地方，大约是 700，我们谈论的是近红外，出于实际目的，它会上升到 900 左右。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: But I remember doing an experiment with UV once, and it was a bizarre experiment, trying to work out if a reindeer could see UV light.
格伦·杰弗里：但我记得曾经做过一个紫外线实验，这是一个奇怪的实验，试图弄清楚驯鹿是否可以看到紫外线。
Andrew Huberman: Do they?
安德鲁·休伯曼：是吗？
Glen Jeffery: Yeah, they do actually.
格伦·杰弗里：是的，确实如此。
But then, while we were doing the experiment, I was beginning to say, "Look, I'm not believing any of this data because I can see this flashing now." And as was pointed out to me, you will see wavelengths of light that you shouldn't see if you just turn the energy up.
但是，当我们进行实验时，我开始说：“看，我不相信这些数据，因为我现在可以看到它在闪烁。”正如我所指出的，如果你只是调高能量，你会看到你不应该看到的光波长。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: So, if I put you in a room with UV and I pump loads of energy into that UV, you'll see things that you shouldn't.
格伦·杰弗里：所以，如果我把你放在一个有紫外线的房间里，并向紫外线注入大量能量，你就会看到你不应该看到的东西。
Andrew Huberman: Mm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Glen Jeffery: And likewise with the reds, you shouldn't really see much above 700.
Glen Jeffery：同样，对于红色，你不应该看到超过 700 的值。
I can get you to see 850 if I just turn the energy up a bit, and you see these little red glows.
如果我把能量调高一点，我就能让你看到 850，你就会看到这些小红光。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, this explains a lot of people's ideas about whether or not they've seen ghosts, but that's a different podcast, ghosts and UFOs.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：是的，这解释了很多人关于他们是否见过鬼魂的想法，但这是一个不同的播客，鬼魂和不明飞行物。
But an interesting discussion but for another time.
但这是一次有趣的讨论，但下次再说。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Andrew Huberman: But I can't help but mention that, okay, maybe we'll return to this later, but Glen has worked on a variety of species, as have I over the years.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：但我忍不住要提一下，好吧，也许我们稍后会再讨论这个问题，但格伦已经研究了多种物种，多年来我也是如此。
So maybe at the end, we'll do a quick catalog of the species that we've worked on over the years.
所以也许最后，我们会对我们多年来研究的物种进行快速编目。
So, I'm not surprised to learn that you worked on reindeers, given the other species you've worked on.
因此，考虑到您研究过的其他物种，得知您研究驯鹿时我并不感到惊讶。
But returning to the human, you published some papers over the last five, six years or so, looking at how, when the eyes specifically are exposed to long-wavelength light, it can do excellent things for preserving vision or off-setting some loss of visual function.
但回到人类，您在过去五六年左右发表了一些论文，研究当眼睛专门暴露在长波长光下时，它如何能够在保护视力或抵消某些视觉功能损失方面发挥出色的作用。
Could you detail those experiments for us?
您能为我们详细介绍一下这些实验吗？
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
So, let's take two pieces of information first.
那么，我们先来看两条信息。
So one of the main theories of aging is the mitochondrial theory of aging.
所以衰老的主要理论之一就是线粒体衰老理论。
Mitochondria regulate the pace of aging.
线粒体调节衰老的速度。
So if you can regulate mitochondrial health, you can regulate aging.
因此，如果你能调节线粒体健康，你就能调节衰老。
That's relatively clear.
这样就比较清楚了。
So, that's the first thing.
所以，这是第一件事。
And then the second thing to remember is that there's more mitochondria in your retina than there is in any other part of your body.
其次要记住的是，视网膜中的线粒体比身体任何其他部位的线粒体都多。
Your retina has got the highest metabolic rate in the body, ages fast, and my argument always is, it's the sports car.
你的视网膜拥有体内最高的新陈代谢率，衰老得很快，我的论点始终是，它是跑车。
Bangs out of the garage, but after so many thousand miles, you've got to service it, otherwise it falls apart.
从车库里砰砰地开出来，但经过几千英里之后，你必须对它进行维修，否则它就会崩溃。
So there was a very strong argument for trying to manipulate mitochondria in the retina, which is great for me because I'm a retinal person, I'm a visual person, so I had the tools to do it.
因此，对于尝试操纵视网膜中的线粒体有一个非常有力的论据，这对我来说非常好，因为我是一个视网膜人，我是一个视觉人，所以我有工具来做到这一点。
So, the first experiment we did, which was very gratifying, was to actually measure people's ability to see colors.
因此，我们做的第一个非常令人高兴的实验是实际测量人们看到颜色的能力。
Now, we used a rather sophisticated test, first of all, and that was we'd put on a very high resolution monitor, say, the letter T in blue, and then we'd add loads and loads of visual noise to it in the background, or we'd have an F in red, visual noise.
现在，我们首先使用了一个相当复杂的测试，那就是我们放上一个非常高分辨率的显示器，比如说，蓝色的字母T，然后我们在背景中添加大量的视觉噪声，或者我们会在红色的视觉噪声中添加一个F。
And then we found the threshold at which they could see that letter and happily identify it.
然后我们找到了他们可以看到该字母并高兴地识别它的阈值。
So, we found out what their visual ability was for colors.
因此，我们了解了他们对颜色的视觉能力。
We then gave them a burst of red light to improve their mitochondria in cells that are very mitochondria-dependent, and we then brought them back, and we found the threshold had changed.
然后我们给它们发出一阵红光，以改善非常依赖线粒体的细胞中的线粒体，然后我们把它们带回来，我们发现阈值发生了变化。
Their threshold had improved in every one of those subjects bar one.
除一门外，他们在每一门科目上的门槛都有所提高。
Andrew Huberman: They could see something they couldn't see before.
Andrew Huberman：他们可以看到以前看不到的东西。
Glen Jeffery: See before.
格伦·杰弗里：见之前。
Andrew Huberman: By one, I think it's hard for...
安德鲁·休伯曼：一方面，我认为这很难......
What scale is it on?
它的规模是多少？
Some of these tests, this is like the tritan test.
其中一些测试，就像 tritan 测试。
Glen Jeffery: Well, so we tested tritan and protan, so...
Glen Jeffery：嗯，我们测试了 tritan 和 protan，所以......
Andrew Huberman: Okay, so this is nerd speak for the different visual tests.
Andrew Huberman：好的，这是书呆子对不同视觉测试的说法。
Most people are familiar with the Snellen chart.
大多数人都熟悉斯内伦图。
When you go to get your driver's license, you have to read the letters of different sizes.
当你去领取驾驶执照时，你必须阅读不同大小的字母。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Very different.
安德鲁·休伯曼：非常不同。
This is measuring the just noticeable difference between you can see something, you can't see something.
这是衡量你可以看到某些东西和你看不到某些东西之间的明显差异。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: When you say there was an improvement of but one, could you frame that in a real-world context for people who are not thinking about visual psychophysics?
安德鲁·休伯曼：当你说只有一个改进时，你能否为那些不考虑视觉心理物理学的人在现实世界中构建这一点？
Glen Jeffery: Okay.
格伦·杰弗里：好的。
It's very simple.
这很简单。
Of all the people we've tested, we've got an improvement, and there's very large numbers of them, except one subject.
在我们测试过的所有人中，我们都取得了进步，而且除了一个受试者之外，人数非常多。
So, all right?
那么，好吗？
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Ah, you're saying but one.
啊，你说的是只有一个。
Glen Jeffery: No, no, no.
格伦·杰弗里：不，不，不。
Andrew Huberman: I thought you meant that was the numerical the size of the effect.
Andrew Huberman：我以为你的意思是效应大小的数值。
Okay.
好的。
Glen Jeffery: No. No. No. No. If you look over the population, the size of the effect is around 20%.
Glen Jeffery：不不不不。如果你观察一下总体情况，就会发现影响的大小约为 20%。
It's very substantial.
这是非常重要的。
All right?
好的？
But our ability to improve visual function varies enormously between individuals.
但我们改善视觉功能的能力因人而异。
Andrew Huberman: You said but one.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你只说了一个。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Andrew Huberman: This is a UK/US nome...
Andrew Huberman：这是英国/美国的名字......
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Sorry.
对不起。
Andrew Huberman: No, but don't apologize.
安德鲁·休伯曼：不，但不要道歉。
I should apologize.
我应该道歉。
Glen Jeffery: Yes.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
An improvement of 20%, improvement in threshold, so people are seeing better than they did prior.
提高了 20%，阈值也提高了，所以人们的视力比以前更好了。
Could you explain what they did for the intervention?
您能解释一下他们为干预做了什么吗？
How many times a week, a day?
一周几次，一天几次？
How long are they shining red light in their eyes?
他们的眼睛里发出红光多久了？
Excuse me, long wavelength light.
对不起，长波长光。
What's the nature of that light?
那光的本质是什么？
Maybe even tell us how far away from it they are.
甚至可以告诉我们他们离它有多远。
Glen Jeffery: Okay.
格伦·杰弗里：好的。
So in our first experiments, we used 670 nanometers, right?
所以在我们的第一个实验中，我们使用了 670 纳米，对吧？
Which is a deep-ish red light.
这是一种深红色的光。
The only reason we used that is because all the studies before us, doing different things, had used 670, consequently there was a database.
我们使用它的唯一原因是因为我们之前的所有研究，做不同的事情，都使用了 670，因此有一个数据库。
So that's why we did it, and we did it with a little torch that we put in front of someone's eye...
这就是我们这样做的原因，我们用一个小手电筒放在某人的眼前......
Andrew Huberman: Flashlight.
安德鲁·休伯曼：手电筒。
I'll translate the flashlight.
我来翻译一下手电筒。
Not a torch with fire near the eye.
眼睛附近不要有火的手电筒。
Glen Jeffery: No, definitely not.
格伦·杰弗里：不，绝对不是。
Andrew Huberman: Oh my goodness.
安德鲁·休伯曼：天哪。
Glen Jeffery: And we did that for three minutes.
格伦·杰弗里：我们这样做了三分钟。
And originally, we did that every day for a number of weeks.
最初，我们连续几个星期每天都这样做。
Andrew Huberman: Eye open, not eye closed.
安德鲁·休伯曼：睁开眼睛，而不是闭上眼睛。
Glen Jeffery: Makes very little difference because the long wavelength light passes through the lid without it being affected very much.
Glen Jeffery：差别很小，因为长波长的光穿过盖子时不会受到太大影响。
So, I said to people, "Whatever you're comfortable with.
所以，我对人们说：“无论你觉得舒服什么。
You're doing me a favor.
你这是在帮我一个忙。
You're being a subject in my experiment.
你是我实验的对象。
I'm not paying you for it.
我不会付钱给你。
You want to keep your eyes closed, you keep your eyes closed." And those people all had an improvement in their color vision.
你想闭上眼睛，你就闭上眼睛。”这些人的色觉都有所改善。
Now, we then titrated that down.
现在，我们将其降低。
So instead of doing it every day for so many days, we just did it for one day, and three minutes of that light, one day, and we brought them back.
因此，我们没有连续几天每天都这样做，而是只做了一天，一天三分钟的光，然后我们把它们带回来了。
I think it was an hour later.
我想那是一个小时后的事了。
They all improved.
他们都进步了。
Andrew Huberman: How stable was the effect?
Andrew Huberman：效果有多稳定？
I mean, did they have to only do one treatment ever?
我的意思是，他们只需要进行一次治疗吗？
Glen Jeffery: No. I wish that was the case.
格伦·杰弗里：不。我希望情况确实如此。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
Glen Jeffery: In all of those people, and I have to say, we've done similar experiments on flies, on mice, on humans.
格伦·杰弗里：对于所有这些人，我不得不说，我们在苍蝇、老鼠和人类身上做了类似的实验。
It's five days.
已经五天了。
Andrew Huberman: It lasts five days.
Andrew Huberman：持续五天。
Glen Jeffery: Five days.
格伦·杰弗里：五天。
It's a solid five-day effect.
五天的效果确实很明显。
So something very fundamental that is conserved across evolution is playing a role here.
因此，在进化过程中保守的一些非常基本的东西在这里发挥着作用。
And I have to say that to a first approximation, anything I find in a fly, I find in a mouse, anything I find in a mouse, I find in a human.
我不得不说，我在苍蝇身上发现的任何东西，我在老鼠身上发现的东西，我在老鼠身上发现的任何东西，我在人类身上发现的东西。
I can't find a big disjuncture between those things.
我找不到这些事情之间有什么大的脱节。
So, it lasted five days.
就这样，持续了五天。
And the real big point to take on board is it's a switch.
真正需要考虑的重点是它是一个开关。
There's not a dose response curve here.
这里没有剂量反应曲线。
It is a switch.
它是一个开关。
You put enough energy in at a certain wavelength of light, and it goes bang and click, and then five days later, it goes chunk and stops.
你在特定波长的光下注入足够的能量，它会发出“砰”的一声，然后五天后，它会变大并停止。
Andrew Huberman: I have a lot of questions about these studies, so I'm going to try and be as precise about them.
Andrew Huberman：我对这些研究有很多疑问，所以我将尝试尽可能准确地回答它们。
I know it's on people's minds.
我知道这是人们的想法。
If people are going to get in front of a long-wavelength light-emitting device, do you think it's critical that it be 670 nanometers, or could it be 650 out to 800?
如果人们要面对长波长发光器件，您认为 670 纳米至关重要，还是 650 到 800 纳米？
How narrow band does the light actually have to be in terms of wavelength?
就波长而言，光的波段实际上必须有多窄？
Glen Jeffery: Pretty much anything works to a rather similar extent at 670 going upwards.
Glen Jeffery：在 670 向上，几乎任何东西都会在相当相似的程度上发挥作用。
When you go below 670 towards 650, the effects tend to be somewhat reduced.
当您低于 670 并接近 650 时，效果往往会有所减弱。
Andrew Huberman: If this is happening very quickly, you said an hour later, the vision is better, thresholds have changed, and it lasts five days.
Andrew Huberman：如果这种情况发生得非常快，你说一小时后，视力会更好，阈值会发生变化，并且会持续五天。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Do you think we can get the same effect from sunlight, given that sunlight contains these long wavelengths of light?
Andrew Huberman：鉴于阳光中含有这些长波长的光，您认为我们可以从阳光中获得相同的效果吗？
Or is it that the sunlight isn't of sufficient energy for most people?
或者是阳光对于大多数人来说能量不够？
I mean, with this, what you call torch, I call flashlight, light source, the way you described it and showed it with your hand for those listening is fairly close to the eye, maybe eyelids closed or maybe open if people can tolerate that, and you're shining that light in their eyes for a couple of minutes.
我的意思是，你所说的手电筒，我称之为手电筒，光源，你描述它并用手向听众展示的方式相当接近眼睛，如果人们可以忍受的话，也许眼睑闭合或打开，然后你将光照射在他们的眼睛里几分钟。
How different is it than stepping outside on a really bright day, closing my eyes if I look in the direction of the sun because that's pleasant, or just walking in the sunlight and getting long wavelength exposure?
这与在阳光明媚的日子走到外面，朝太阳的方向看时闭上眼睛，因为这样很舒服，或者只是在阳光下行走并接受长波长照射有什么不同？
Glen Jeffery: Well, I'm a big fan of natural sunlight because life has evolved for billions of years under sunlight, right?
格伦·杰弗里：嗯，我非常喜欢自然阳光，因为生命在阳光下进化了数十亿年，对吗？
It's only recently changed.
这是最近才改变的。
I don't know that cutoff point, but there's an enormous difference between the light produced by a flashlight and sunlight.
我不知道那个截止点，但手电筒和阳光产生的光之间存在巨大差异。
Sunlight is an enormous broad spectrum, and that flashlight is just a little window of light that happens also to be present in sunlight.
阳光是一个巨大的广谱，而手电筒只是阳光中也存在的一个小光窗。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: Now, I think the two situations are probably incomparable.
Glen Jeffery：现在，我认为这两种情况可能没有可比性。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: Right?
格伦·杰弗里：对吗？
And I'm not going to spend whatever is left of my career hunting that down.
我不会花费我职业生涯剩下的一切来追寻这个目标。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: We know, and I think this is the global concept I've got, which is that we can do much with single wavelengths of long wavelength light, right?
Glen Jeffery：我们知道，我认为这是我的全球概念，即我们可以利用长波长光的单波长做很多事情，对吧？
Like a flashlight, which is 850 or 860.
像手电筒一样，就是850或者860。
We can do a lot.
我们可以做很多事情。
But we can never do the same as you can get from sunlight.
但我们永远无法做到与阳光一样。
But you can't do those tight controlled experiments with sunlight that I can do much more easily with specific wavelengths.
但是你不能用阳光进行那些严格控制的实验，而我可以用特定波长更容易地完成这些实验。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Yeah, and you're in the UK, so you'd have a lot of days where you couldn't do experiments at all.
是的，而且你在英国，所以你会有很多天根本无法做实验。
Glen Jeffery: We don't do sunlight.
Glen Jeffery：我们不使用阳光。
Andrew Huberman: I'm just kidding.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我只是开玩笑。
Well, I must say oftentimes when I tell people to get sunlight in their eyes in the morning to set their circadian rhythm, I'm like a repeating record with that, and I will be till the day I die.
好吧，我必须经常说，当我告诉人们在早上让阳光照射到他们的眼睛以设定他们的昼夜节律时，我就像一个重复的记录，直到我死的那一天。
People will say, "There's no sunlight where I live." And I remind them that even on a very overcast day, there's a lot of photon energy coming through, but the long wavelength light is cut off.
人们会说：“我住的地方没有阳光。”我提醒他们，即使在阴天，也会有大量的光子能量通过，但长波长的光会被切断。
So they're still getting a lot of photons.
所以他们仍然获得了大量的光子。
I mean, compare how bright it is at 9:00 a.m.
我的意思是，比较一下上午 9:00 的亮度。
versus midnight the night before.
与前一天晚上的午夜相比。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Their sun is that they can't see the outline of the sun as an object is what they're referring to.
Andrew Huberman：他们的太阳是他们看不到太阳的轮廓，因为他们指的是一个物体。
Glen Jeffery: Right.
格伦·杰弗里：对。
I think the important point there is that long wavelength light gets scattered by water.
我认为重要的一点是长波长的光会被水散射。
It gets absorbed and scattered by water.
它被水吸收和分散。
So, on a winter's day, we've got a cloud, and that cloud contains water.
所以，在冬天的一天，我们有一朵云，而那朵云含有水。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: There will be an attenuation of the longer wavelength light.
Glen Jeffery：较长波长的光将会衰减。
It won't be vast, but there will be an attenuation, but it will start coming at you in different angles.
它不会很大，但会有一个衰减，但它会开始以不同的角度向你袭来。
So when you're walking on a sunny day, and you're walking down the road, sun's in front of you, you feel warm on your chest when you've got clothes on, and it's the longer wavelength light doing it because it's relatively focused.
因此，当你在阳光明媚的日子里行走时，你走在路上，阳光就在你面前，当你穿上衣服时，你会感到胸口温暖，这是波长较长的光在起作用，因为它相对集中。
On that winter's day, you're still getting a lot of long wavelength light, but it's coming at you in a lot of different angles, and it's slightly attenuated.
在那个冬天的一天，你仍然会收到大量的长波长光，但它会以很多不同的角度射向你，而且会稍微减弱。
So my argument, which is the new mantra of the lab to some extent, is get a dog, right?
所以我的论点，在某种程度上是实验室的新口号，是养一只狗，对吧？
Get a dog because you'll have to go out in daylight two or three times a day.
养一只狗，因为你每天必须在白天出去两到三次。
Andrew Huberman: You'll get no argument from me.
Andrew Huberman：你不会从我这里得到任何争论。
You're making me very happy, Glen.
你让我很高兴，格伦。
I love dogs.
我喜欢狗。
Listeners of this podcast will know I absolutely love dogs, and my last dog was an English bulldog, half English bulldog, half mastiff.
这个播客的听众会知道我非常喜欢狗，我的最后一只狗是一只英国斗牛犬，一半英国斗牛犬，一半獒犬。
So, the next one will also be an English bulldog.
所以，下一只也将是英国斗牛犬。
A couple more questions because I know people are curious about long wavelength light-emitting devices for their eyes and other tissues.
还有几个问题，因为我知道人们对用于眼睛和其他组织的长波长发光装置感到好奇。
You mentioned that one subject did not respond, and if I'm not mistaken, these effects, at least on the eyes, I don't know about the other effects on blood sugar, et cetera, but on the eyes and visual function seem to be gated by age, right?
你提到一个受试者没有反应，如果我没记错的话，这些影响，至少对眼睛来说，我不知道对血糖等的其他影响，但对眼睛和视觉功能的影响似乎是由年龄决定的，对吗？
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Andrew Huberman: If I recall, people younger than 40, you saw less of an effect.
Andrew Huberman：如果我没记错的话，对于 40 岁以下的人来说，你看到的效果较小。
Glen Jeffery: Overall, statistically, we saw less of an effect.
Glen Jeffery：总体而言，从统计数据来看，我们看到的影响较小。
My youngest son responded very, very strongly.
我最小的儿子反应非常非常强烈。
And at the time, I think he was about 25.
当时，我认为他大约25岁。
So, you have to look at a population level to get that.
所以，你必须考虑人口水平才能得到这一点。
But okay, look, this all makes sense.
但是好吧，看，这一切都是有道理的。
Mitochondrial theory of aging means that we should have more room to improve mitochondria in the elderly than the young.
线粒体衰老理论意味着，老年人的线粒体应该比年轻人有更大的改善空间。
But we all age at different rates.
但我们每个人的衰老速度都不同。
One of the biggest problems about doing experiments on humans as opposed to mice is we all do radically different things.
在人类身上做实验而不是在老鼠身上做实验的最大问题之一是我们所做的事情完全不同。
Some take exercise, some have very good diets, some have poor diets.
有些人锻炼身体，有些人饮食很好，有些人饮食不良。
And mice sitting in our animal house, eating the same food, they're very, very similar to one another.
老鼠坐在我们的动物屋里，吃着同样的食物，它们彼此非常非常相似。
Everything is the same.
一切都一样。
So, we have to accept that noise.
所以，我们必须接受这种噪音。
But generally, when your mitochondria are in a poor state, which is consistent with aging, yes, we've got more room to lift them up and improve their function.
但一般来说，当你的线粒体处于较差的状态时，这与衰老是一致的，是的，我们有更多的空间来提升它们并改善它们的功能。
Andrew Huberman: What was the time of day, so-called circadian effect, of this?
Andrew Huberman：所谓的昼夜节律效应是在一天中的什么时间发生的？
Glen Jeffery: Very clear.
格伦·杰弗里：非常清楚。
Again, same in flies, mice, and humans.
同样，苍蝇、小鼠和人类也是如此。
Your biggest effect is always in the morning, and it's always generally just before perceived sunrise up until about 11 o'clock.
影响最大的时间总是在早上，而且通常是在日出之前直到 11 点左右。
And it's very, very clear.
这非常非常清楚。
But let's look at the backdrop to this.
但让我们看看这件事的背景。
Your mitochondria, they're not doing the same thing all the time.
你的线粒体，它们并不总是做同样的事情。
So, if we did this experiment for 24 hours, looking at mitochondria.
所以，如果我们进行这个实验 24 小时，观察线粒体。
And if you look at what mitochondria are doing over 24 hours, it's shifting.
如果你观察线粒体在 24 小时内所做的事情，就会发现它正在发生变化。
It's not the same even over a three-hour period.
即使在三个小时内，情况也不一样。
It's shifting.
它正在转变。
And so the proteins that we have in different parts of mitochondria are changing in concentration radically.
因此，线粒体不同部分的蛋白质浓度正在发生根本性变化。
It's a very, very active area.
这是一个非常非常活跃的领域。
So if you're doing research on mitochondria, and you're not taking into account the time of day, you may have a problem.
因此，如果您正在研究线粒体，并且没有考虑一天中的时间，那么您可能会遇到问题。
But the mornings are very, very special.
但早晨非常非常特别。
In the morning, there are lots of things changing in your body.
早上，您的身体会发生很多变化。
Your hormone levels are very, very different.
你们的激素水平非常非常不同。
Your blood sugars tend to be picking up.
您的血糖往往会升高。
You've been asleep.
你已经睡着了。
A predator may have been watching you.
掠食者可能一直在注视着你。
You need to wake up, and you need to be ready on the road.
你需要醒来，你需要做好上路的准备。
You can't be like a lizard that's got to wait for the sun to rise and to get themselves into a position where you can get your body temperature up.
你不能像一只蜥蜴一样，必须等待太阳升起，然后让自己处于可以升高体温的位置。
So the morning is very important.
所以早上非常重要。
You're making more ATP, this petrol that mitochondria make in the morning, than at any other time.
你产生的 ATP（线粒体在早上产生的汽油）比任何其他时间都多。
Now, I can improve function across a wide range of issues in the morning.
现在，我可以在早上改善各种问题的功能。
I can't do it very easily in the afternoon.
下午我做起来不太容易。
And I think this comes from a very myopic point of view, which is we think about mitochondria purely as things that make energy.
我认为这是一个非常短视的观点，即我们认为线粒体纯粹是产生能量的东西。
They do lots of other things.
他们还做很多其他事情。
And my interpretation is that in the afternoon, well, the standard lab joke is they're doing the ironing.
我的解释是，下午，标准的实验室笑话是他们正在熨烫。
They're doing other things that, as organelles, they need to do.
它们正在做作为细胞器需要做的其他事情。
Andrew Huberman: Interesting.
安德鲁·休伯曼：有趣。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: They are over a period of a day, they're making contact with other organelles in the cell, particularly something called the endoplasmic reticulum.
格伦·杰弗里（Glen Jeffery）：它们在一天的时间内与细胞中的其他细胞器接触，特别是称为内质网的东西。
They're junctioning with that.
他们正在与此结合。
We've got such a limited view of what they do.
我们对他们所做的事情的看法非常有限。
I was surprised to find that a mitochondria at nine o'clock in the morning was not a mitochondria at four o'clock in the afternoon.
我惊讶地发现早上九点钟的线粒体不是下午四点钟的线粒体。
That poses some very serious problems about the interpretation of our data if people are doing things at different times of day.
如果人们在一天中的不同时间做事，这会给我们的数据解释带来一些非常严重的问题。
Andrew Huberman: So, if somebody wants to improve their vision with long-wavelength light exposure, maybe we can just give them a rough contour of what this would look like.
Andrew Huberman：所以，如果有人想通过长波长光照射来改善他们的视力，也许我们可以给他们一个粗略的轮廓。
A long wavelength of 670, and greater, emitting flashlight torch at a comfortable distance from the eye so it could be three inches, six inches, a foot, depending on how bright it is.
670 或更大的长波长，在距眼睛舒适的距离处发射手电筒，因此它可以是三英寸、六英寸、一英尺，具体取决于它的亮度。
But if I were going to run the experiment, I'd probably want to bring it about as close as people felt like they wanted to close their eyes, but then move it back just a little bit, just below the threshold of kind of, I don't want to say discomfort, but where it's just too bright.
但如果我要进行这个实验，我可能想让它尽可能接近人们想要闭上眼睛的感觉，但然后将其向后移动一点，就在某种阈值以下，我不想说不舒服，但它太亮了。
And then you're saying it doesn't matter if their eyelids are closed or open, you give it three minutes, five minutes of exposure once every five days or so.
然后你说，不管他们的眼睑是闭合还是打开，你每五天左右就给它一次三分钟、五分钟的暴露时间。
And is that going to be sufficient?
这足够了吗？
Glen Jeffery: There is the difference between something that has an effect and then the efficiency of that effect.
格伦·杰弗里（Glen Jeffery）：产生效果的事物与该效果的效率之间是有区别的。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: So, if you take a 670 nanometer light source and you do exactly that, you will have an effect.
Glen Jeffery：所以，如果你采用 670 纳米光源并且完全这样做，你就会产生效果。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: Now, as we're going forward, certainly we're finding the energy at which you give that wavelength is dropping and dropping and dropping and still effective.
格伦·杰弗里：现在，随着我们的前进，我们当然会发现您给予该波长的能量正在不断下降，但仍然有效。
Andrew Huberman: So, you don't need a very bright light?
Andrew Huberman：那么，你不需要非常亮的灯光？
Glen Jeffery: No. No, you don't.
格伦·杰弗里：不，不，你不知道。
The original experiments, they used watts.
最初的实验，他们使用瓦特。
They measured it in watts, not lux.
他们以瓦特为单位进行测量，而不是勒克斯。
Lux is not very meaningful to this situation because that's adjusted for the human eye.
勒克斯对于这种情况没有多大意义，因为它是针对人眼进行调整的。
We want to know what was the energy that the cell experienced.
我们想知道细胞经历的能量是什么。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: So, people started off at, say, 40 milliwatts per centimeter squared, and I looked at that and I thought, "Crikey."
Glen Jeffery：所以，人们一开始的功率是每平方厘米 40 毫瓦，我看着它，我想，“哎呀。”
Andrew Huberman: That's bright.
安德鲁·休伯曼： 太棒了。
Glen Jeffery: That's bright.
格伦·杰弗里：太棒了。
Andrew Huberman: That's very bright.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这非常明亮。
Glen Jeffery: Big after effect.
Glen Jeffery：后遗症很大。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, that's going to make someone wince.
Andrew Huberman：是的，这会让某人畏缩。
Yeah.
是的。
Glen Jeffery: It is.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
So, then we got ourselves down to what we do in the lab now generally, which is around eight, which is very comfortable, has the same effect.
所以，然后我们开始着手现在在实验室所做的事情，一般是在八点左右，非常舒服，具有相同的效果。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: But then we had someone in the lab do an experiment, and we had the flashlights that had batteries in them.
格伦·杰弗里：但后来我们让实验室里的人做了一个实验，我们有了装有电池的手电筒。
She got a lovely effect, and we found out the batteries had been run down, and she was getting an effect close at one milliwatt per centimeter squared.
她得到了一个可爱的效果，我们发现电池已经耗尽了，她得到了接近每平方厘米一毫瓦的效果。
That is low.
那是低的。
Andrew Huberman: That's dim red light.
Andrew Huberman：那是暗淡的红光。
Glen Jeffery: That is low.
格伦·杰弗里：这个比例很低。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
So, it sounds like one can use dim to moderately bright red light that's comfortable.
所以，听起来人们可以使用昏暗到中等明亮的红光，这样会很舒服。
I say red, but I mean long-wavelength light that's comfortable and likely get the effect.
我说的是红色，但我的意思是长波长的光，它很舒服并且可能会产生效果。
Glen Jeffery: Well, yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：嗯，是的。
Andrew Huberman: Sounds like the effect can occur at any age, but it's going to be more pronounced in people that have experienced some loss of vision because of age, which everybody does.
安德鲁·休伯曼：听起来这种效应可能发生在任何年龄，但对于那些因年龄而经历过视力丧失的人来说，这种效应会更加明显，每个人都会这样做。
Glen Jeffery: Yes.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Andrew Huberman: You've also looked at this in the context of macular degeneration, which is a very common form of blinding, and especially in people as they get older.
Andrew Huberman：您还从黄斑变性的角度研究了这一点，黄斑变性是一种非常常见的致盲形式，尤其是随着年龄的增长。
What were the results in terms of rescuing vision in people with macular degeneration?
在挽救黄斑变性患者的视力方面取得了哪些成果？
Glen Jeffery: Okay.
格伦·杰弗里：好的。
So, macular degeneration is when, you could put it crudely, that the center of your retina that you're using for reading, degenerates, and you could say it's part of an aging process.
所以，粗略地说，黄斑变性是指用于阅读的视网膜中心发生退化，你可以说这是衰老过程的一部分。
If I get you all to live to 50, so if I get you all to live to a 100 years, probably 20% of you will have macular degeneration.
如果我让你们都活到 50 岁，那么如果我让你们都活到 100 岁，那么你们中可能有 20% 的人会患有黄斑变性。
Remember, the retina's a sports car, it burns out.
请记住，视网膜是一辆跑车，它会烧坏。
So, I had a very significant failure in a clinical trial because we took a whole group of patients, who had macular degeneration, we treated them with red light, and we treated their part...
所以，我在一项临床试验中遭遇了非常重大的失败，因为我们收集了一整组患有黄斑变性的患者，我们用红光治疗他们，我们治疗了他们的部分......
More women have macular degeneration than men.
患有黄斑变性的女性多于男性。
We took their husbands as the control subjects.
我们以她们的丈夫作为对照对象。
And to a first approximation, we got absolutely no effect whatsoever.
初步估计，我们完全没有收到任何效果。
This is kind of a point where people working with Glen are losing enthusiasm.
这是与格伦一起工作的人们失去热情的时刻。
But lo and behold, their husbands, their vision...
但你瞧，他们的丈夫，他们的愿景......
They didn't have macular degeneration, but their vision was improving enormously, particularly the way in which they could deal with darkness.
他们没有黄斑变性，但他们的视力得到了极大的改善，尤其是他们应对黑暗的能力。
So, we stomped around over this.
所以，我们在这件事上犹豫不决。
Something was wrong.
出了点问题。
And we found that when we looked back at it, we found that the subjects that we were dealing with, the patients, their disease had reached a certain point.
我们发现，当我们回头看时，我们发现我们正在处理的对象、患者、他们的疾病已经达到了某个程度。
It had gone beyond a certain point.
它已经超出了某个点。
Now, when that study was replicated by someone who thought about it a bit more than me, an ophthalmologist called Ben Burton in the UK, he got a great result.
现在，当那个比我想得更多的人——英国的眼科医生本·伯顿（Ben Burton）——重复了这项研究时，他得到了一个很好的结果。
He started to get a really good result.
他开始取得非常好的成绩。
And when you talk to people about red light, and I talk to people, I talk to Parkinson's societies, I talk to various groups, and I talk to the researchers, and there is one thing that's very clear, is that red light can impact on aging, it can impact on disease, but it can't do it if that disease has really got its teeth into you.
当你与人们谈论红光时，我与人们交谈，我与帕金森氏症协会交谈，我与各个团体交谈，我与研究人员交谈，有一点非常清楚，那就是红光可以影响衰老，它可以影响疾病，但如果这种疾病真的对你产生了影响，它就无法做到这一点。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: Right?
格伦·杰弗里：对吗？
So, where we need to get into situations is early on in disease.
因此，我们需要在疾病早期就着手处理。
So, we thought very much at one point about rheumatism, rheumatoid arthritis.
所以，我们一度对风湿病、类风湿性关节炎思考了很多。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, very common autoimmune condition.
Andrew Huberman：是的，非常常见的自身免疫性疾病。
Yeah.
是的。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
And, we had absolutely zero effect, but all the subjects we dealt with already had hands that were quite twisted.
而且，我们的效果绝对为零，但我们处理的所有受试者的手都已经非常扭曲了。
It wasn't people coming in saying, "I've got this ache in my hand," which is where we should have intervened.
人们并不是进来说“我手疼”，而这才是我们应该干预的地方。
So, early intervention is absolutely critical.
因此，早期干预绝对至关重要。
We don't have to give high energies.
我们不必付出高能量。
We don't have to give long exposures.
我们不必进行长时间曝光。
We can improve situations, but where we need to put our effort is the efficacy of how we improve things.
我们可以改善情况，但我们需要付出努力的是改善情况的效率。
If I can improve something 20%, well, that's great for that person, but can we improve it 80%?
如果我可以将某件事改进 20%，那么，这对那个人来说很好，但是我们可以将其改进 80% 吗？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: And that's all about wavelengths.
Glen Jeffery：这都是关于波长的。
It's all about energies.
这一切都与能量有关。
It's all about us thinking a little bit more carefully before we set up the experiment.
这一切都在于我们在进行实验之前要更加仔细地思考。
Andrew Huberman: It also makes me think that even though long-wavelength light can penetrate the body and it scatters, like for instance, the shining of light on a four-by-six inch rectangle on the back impact blood glucose regulation everywhere.
Andrew Huberman：这也让我想到，尽管长波长的光可以穿透身体并发生散射，例如，光照射在背部四乘六英寸的矩形上会影响各处的血糖调节。
Glen Jeffery: Mm-hmm.
格伦·杰弗里：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Shining long-wavelength light into the eyes improved presumably mitochondrial function in order to increase the visual detection ability, and on and on.
Andrew Huberman：将长波长光照射到眼睛中可能会改善线粒体功能，以提高视觉检测能力，等等。
Presumably, the tissue that you focus the light on, if it's a focused light, is going to derive the greatest benefit, right?
据推测，如果是聚焦光，您将光聚焦的组织将获得最大的益处，对吧？
Or at least the most opportunity for mitochondrial change.
或者至少是线粒体改变的最大机会。
Then there will be these systemic effects.
然后就会产生这些系统性影响。
Those mitochondria are talking to other mitochondria.
这些线粒体正在与其他线粒体对话。
I mean, I'm fascinated by how mitochondria are perhaps transported between cells and around the body.
我的意思是，我对线粒体如何在细胞之间和身体周围运输很着迷。
There's not even a cottage industry anymore.
甚至连家庭手工业都没有了。
I think a lot of biologists are thinking about this seriously.
我认为很多生物学家都在认真思考这个问题。
Glen Jeffery: Mm.
格伦·杰弗里：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: But let's say I want to improve the mitochondrial function in my gallbladder, should I shine the red light on my gallbladder?
Andrew Huberman：但是假设我想改善胆囊中的线粒体功能，我应该用红灯照射我的胆囊吗？
It stands to reason that the answer would be yes.
按理说答案是肯定的。
Glen Jeffery: I think the answer is yes.
格伦·杰弗里：我认为答案是肯定的。
The issue is how quickly the effect takes place in distal and proximal tissues.
问题在于作用在远端和近端组织中发生的速度有多快。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: So, if you shine the light on your kneecap, something will probably happen within one to two hours.
格伦·杰弗里：所以，如果你用光照射你的膝盖，一到两个小时内可能会发生一些事情。
Andrew Huberman: At the kneecap?
安德鲁·休伯曼：在膝盖骨处？
Glen Jeffery: At the kneecap.
格伦·杰弗里：在膝盖骨处。
Andrew Huberman: Right.
安德鲁·休伯曼：对。
Right, right.
对，对。
Glen Jeffery: But then if you're examining the response of that on your hand, it's 24 hours later.
Glen Jeffery：但是如果你检查你手上的反应，那是 24 小时后的事了。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: Right?
格伦·杰弗里：对吗？
So, the message has to get out and things have to...
所以，消息必须传出去，事情必须……
The story has to spread.
这个故事必须传播。
And the spreading of the story, the spreading...
而故事的传播，传播……
That's an intense kind of area of activity.
这是一个激烈的活动领域。
What is the signal?
信号是什么？
Where is it coming from?
它从哪里来？
What is the signal?
信号是什么？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: And I think we poked our finger at that slightly because we found that cytokine expression in the serum changed a lot.
格伦·杰弗里：我认为我们稍微指出了这一点，因为我们发现血清中的细胞因子表达发生了很大变化。
Andrew Huberman: Inflammatory cytokines are going down?
Andrew Huberman：炎症细胞因子正在下降？
Glen Jeffery: No. Increase in cytokine expression at low levels is protective.
Glen Jeffery：不会。低水平细胞因子表达的增加具有保护作用。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
Glen Jeffery: Right?
格伦·杰弗里：对吗？
So, what it's saying to the body is, "Brace yourself, something's coming."
所以，它对身体说的是：“做好准备，有事情要发生了。”
Andrew Huberman: Sure.
安德鲁·休伯曼：当然。
Yeah.
是的。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Immune system is getting mobilized.
免疫系统正在被动员起来。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Glen Jeffery: So, that was very, very clear.
格伦·杰弗里：所以，这非常非常清楚。
So, in animals that had improvements in physiology also had changes in cytokine expression.
因此，在生理机能得到改善的动物中，细胞因子的表达也发生了变化。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: And I looked at that and I thought, "Is that the real reason, or is this a secondary, third or fourth level effect?" Now, there's some stunning stuff that I'm waiting to come out from Westminster University in the UK, being done by a great scientist, Ify, and what she's showing is a means of communication that we are very really rather unaware of, which is these microvesicles that go around the body, go around the serum, and these microvesicles carry cargos.
格伦·杰弗里：我看着这个，我想，“这是真正的原因，还是这是二级、三级或四级效应？”现在，我正在等待英国威斯敏斯特大学的一些令人惊叹的东西，这是由一位伟大的科学家 Ify 完成的，她展示的是一种我们非常非常不知道的通讯方式，那就是这些围绕身体、围绕血清的微泡，这些微泡携带着货物。
Now, they carry all different sorts of cargos, and people have played with them a little bit in terms of changes in the gut microbiome.
现在，它们携带着各种不同种类的货物，人们对它们进行了一些关于肠道微生物组变化的研究。
How does that affect the whole body?
这对整个身体有何影响？
They've been talking about microvesicles, and she's showing that microvesicle concentration is changing quite significantly with...
他们一直在谈论微泡，她表明微泡浓度正在发生相当显着的变化......
In fact, what we did with her was we didn't give her a red light.
事实上，我们对她所做的就是我们没有给她闯红灯。
We gave her an LED light where we changed the LEDs in there to put some long wavelength elements in it.
我们给了她一盏 LED 灯，我们改变了里面的 LED，在里面放了一些长波长的元件。
So, the communication around the body, what is doing...
那么，身体周围的通讯，在做什么......
We've got to break that one.
我们必须打破这个。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: It's probably not one thing.
格伦·杰弗里：这可能不是一回事。
Again, scientists always think about one thing.
再说一遍，科学家总是思考一件事。
It's a complex pattern.
这是一个复杂的模式。
When I looked at the changes in cytokine expression, my first reaction was, "I need a mathematician sitting next to me." All these things are changing in a complex manner, and I'm only looking at 50 of them, and there's probably over 300, so I could be missing the point.
当我观察细胞因子表达的变化时，我的第一反应是，“我需要一位数学家坐在我旁边。”所有这些事情都在以复杂的方式发生变化，我只关注其中的 50 个，而可能有超过 300 个，所以我可能没有抓住要点。
But communication...
但沟通...
And you're right, mitochondria, you can see cells come along to a sick cell, and they join together, and the mitochondria is pushed in to the sick cell.
你是对的，线粒体，你可以看到细胞来到患病细胞，它们连接在一起，线粒体被推入患病细胞。
How amazing.
多么神奇啊。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: We'd have never thought about that.
Glen Jeffery：我们从来没有考虑过这一点。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: Your mitochondria are ill.
格伦·杰弗里：你的线粒体有病。
I'm going to come along, and I'm going to give you some fresh mitochondria.
我要去，我会给你一些新鲜的线粒体。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
They, the mitochondria, are amazing, and it's amazing how little we really understand about how they work, and yet what we do understand points to how spectacularly important they are for energy, longevity, and as you pointed out, how malleable they are.
线粒体是令人惊奇的，令人惊讶的是我们对它们的工作原理了解甚少，但我们所了解的却表明它们对于能量、寿命有多么重要，而且正如你所指出的，它们的可塑性是多么强。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And it all makes sense in the evolutionary context of water and the absorption of red light.
Andrew Huberman：从水的进化背景和红光的吸收来看，这一切都是有意义的。
Another way that's kind of fun to illustrate this red light absorption by water thing is if anyone ever goes snorkeling on a tropical reef, you'll notice that in the first 10 feet of water from the surface down, you can see beautiful oranges and reds.
另一种有趣的方式来说明水吸收红光的情况是，如果有人在热带珊瑚礁上浮潜，您会注意到，在距离水面以下的前 10 英尺深的水中，您可以看到美丽的橙色和红色。
Glen Jeffery: Mm.
格伦·杰弗里：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And then if you go deeper, those seem to disappear.
安德鲁·休伯曼：如果你更深入，这些似乎就会消失。
They haven't disappeared.
他们并没有消失。
It's just that the red light isn't penetrating that far.
只是红光没有穿透那么远。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Right?
安德鲁·休伯曼：对吗？
It gets absorbed.
它会被吸收。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Now, if you bring a flashlight down with you, as night divers do, or even day divers will do that sometimes in order to see those, those red fish are still there deeper.
安德鲁·休伯曼：现在，如果你随身携带手电筒，就像夜间潜水员所做的那样，甚至白天潜水员有时也会这样做，以便看到那些鱼，那些红色的鱼仍然在更深的地方。
But it disappears to you.
但它对你来说消失了。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah, yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的，是的。
Andrew Huberman: So, it's very interesting.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，这非常有趣。
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。
Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.
去年，在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我成为了 Function 成员。
Function provides over one hundred advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health.
Function 提供了一百多项先进的实验室测试，为您提供整个身体健康状况的关键快照。
This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more.
此快照为您提供有关心脏健康、激素健康、免疫功能、营养水平等方面的见解。
They've also recently added tests for toxins such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics and tests for PFAS, or forever chemicals.
他们最近还增加了毒素测试，例如有害塑料中的 BPA 暴露以及 PFAS 或永久化学物质的测试。
Function not only provides testing of over a hundred biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas.
Function 不仅提供对您的身心健康至关重要的一百多种生物标志物的测试，而且还分析这些结果并提供相关领域专家的顶级医生的见解。
For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood.
例如，在我第一次使用 Function 进行测试时，我发现我的血液中汞含量升高。
Function not only helped me detect that but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, N-Acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification.
功能不仅帮助我检测到这一点，还提供了如何最好地降低汞含量的见解，其中包括限制我的金枪鱼消费，我一直在吃大量金枪鱼，同时还努力多吃绿叶蔬菜并补充 NAC、N-乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都可以支持谷胱甘肽的产生和解毒。
And I should say, by taking a second Function test, that approach worked.
我应该说，通过进行第二次功能测试，这种方法奏效了。
Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important.
全面的血液检测至关重要。
There are so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test.
有很多与您的心理和身体健康相关的事情只能通过血液检查来检测。
The problem is blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated.
问题是血液检测一直非常昂贵且复杂。
In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost.
相比之下，Function 的简单性和成本水平给我留下了深刻的印象。
It is very affordable.
这是非常实惠的。
As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.
因此，我决定加入他们的科学顾问委员会，我很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。
If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Function，可以访问 functionhealth.com/huberman。
Function currently has a wait list of over 2,50,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman podcast listeners.
Function 目前有超过 250,000 人的等待名单，但他们正在为 Huberman 播客听众提供早期访问服务。
Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.
同样，可以通过 functionhealth.com/huberman 提前访问 Function。
I'd like to talk a little bit about the other end of the wavelength spectrum, short-wavelength light.
我想谈谈波长谱的另一端，即短波长光。
And here I'd like to move to artificial lighting, and point to what I think is a very serious concern.
在这里我想谈谈人工照明，并指出我认为非常严重的问题。
I know it might seem a little bit extreme, but I am very concerned about the fact that people are exposed to so much short wavelength, what's commonly referred to as blue light, but I don't think that really captures it because people hear the words, "Blue Light," and they think, oh, if a light source appears blue, then that might be messing with my melatonin at night, and might be messing with my mitochondria even.
我知道这似乎有点极端，但我非常担心这样一个事实：人们暴露在如此多的短波长（通常称为蓝光）下，但我认为这并不能真正捕捉到它，因为人们听到“蓝光”这个词，他们会想，哦，如果光源呈蓝色，那么这可能会在晚上扰乱我的褪黑激素，甚至可能扰乱我的线粒体。
But it's the white light coming from LED sources, which are basically what we use as lighting sources nowadays, that, yes, they contain blue light, but they also contain violet light and stuff that doesn't appear blue because you've got the other wavelengths in there.
但它是来自 LED 光源的白光，基本上就是我们现在用作光源的光源，是的，它们包含蓝光，但它们也包含紫光和看起来不蓝色的东西，因为那里有其他波长。
In other words, white light coming from LEDs is very short wavelength enriched.
换句话说，来自 LED 的白光的波长非常短。
To me, that's a problem if short-wavelength light is causing dysfunction of mitochondria, and I do believe that's the case, unless it's balanced by the longer wavelengths.
对我来说，如果短波长光导致线粒体功能障碍，那就是一个问题，而且我确实相信情况确实如此，除非它被较长波长所平衡。
Glen Jeffery: Mm-hmm.
格伦·杰弗里：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And at the same time, like anything, it can be remedied if we do the right thing.
Andrew Huberman：同时，就像任何事情一样，如果我们做正确的事情，它是可以补救的。
So, could you illustrate for us what happened over the last 30 years or so in most every country as we moved from...
那么，您能为我们说明一下过去 30 年左右，当我们从……搬到每个国家/地区时，几乎每个国家都发生了什么吗？
Well, actually, let's take it further back.
好吧，实际上，让我们再往前追溯一下。
Let's go from candlelight and firelight to incandescent bulbs.
让我们从烛光和火光转向白炽灯泡。
Let's also talk about halogen bulbs, and now LED bulbs.
我们还讨论一下卤素灯泡，现在讨论 LED 灯泡。
I know people like to focus on screens, but we'll set aside screens for the moment.
我知道人们喜欢关注屏幕，但我们暂时将屏幕放在一边。
Glen Jeffery: Mm-hmm.
格伦·杰弗里：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Let's talk about indoor lighting.
Andrew Huberman：我们来谈谈室内照明。
Glen Jeffery: Mm-hmm.
格伦·杰弗里：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Because I am very concerned about the amount of short-wavelength light that people are exposed to nowadays, especially kids, especially given what you told us about blood glucose regulation.
Andrew Huberman：因为我非常担心现在人们接触到的短波长光的数量，尤其是孩子，特别是考虑到您告诉我们有关血糖调节的内容。
What's known about this?
这件事有什么已知的？
Glen Jeffery: Okay, there's a group of us shuffling around corridors, all mumbling to one another saying, "How big a stink is this?" And some people are...
格伦·杰弗里：好吧，我们一群人在走廊里拖着脚步，互相嘀咕着：“这臭味有多大？”而有些人则...
I reviewed a document that was sent to the European Commission last week just before I came over here from a very balanced, Dutch lighting engineer when he wrote to the European Commission saying, "We've got to rethink this." And so, the group of us that are shuffling around, some of them are saying this is an issue on the same level as asbestos.
我审阅了上周发送给欧盟委员会的一份文件，就在我来到这里之前，一位非常平衡的荷兰照明工程师写信给欧盟委员会说：“我们必须重新考虑这一点。”因此，我们这群人四处走动，其中一些人说这是一个与石棉同等级别的问题。
This is a public health issue, and it's big.
这是一个公共健康问题，而且很严重。
And I think it's one of the reasons why I'm really happy to come here and talk because it's time to talk, right?
我认为这是我很高兴来到这里讲话的原因之一，因为现在是讲话的时候了，对吗？
We've got enough data.
我们已经有足够的数据了。
So, LEDs came in, and people won the Nobel Prize for this, very rightly at the time, because they save a lot of energy.
于是，LED出现了，人们因此获得了诺贝尔奖，这在当时是非常正确的，因为它们节省了大量的能源。
They are very energy efficient because they do not produce on the whole light that we do not see.
它们非常节能，因为它们不会产生我们看不到的全部光。
So, the effort is all in what we see.
所以，努力都是我们所看到的。
Now, as you pointed out, the LED has got a big blue spike in it, although we tend not to see that, and that is even true of warm LEDs, and there is no red.
现在，正如您所指出的，LED 中有一个大的蓝色尖峰，尽管我们往往看不到这一点，甚至对于暖色 LED 也是如此，而且没有红色。
Remember?
记住？
So, we're talking about billions of years of evolution under broad-spectrum sunlight.
所以，我们谈论的是广谱阳光下数十亿年的进化。
When we had fires, that was pretty much the same.
当我们发生火灾时，情况几乎是一样的。
A fire is pretty much broad spectrum, candles pretty much broad spectrum.
火的光谱很广，蜡烛的光谱也很广。
So, nothing really changed in our world until around 2000.
因此，直到 2000 年左右，我们的世界才真正发生改变。
As we get to 2005, we're starting to find that the incandescent lights with their loads of infrared start being pushed off the market.
到了 2005 年，我们开始发现带有红外线负载的白炽灯开始被市场淘汰。
Andrew Huberman: And that was purely because they take more energy.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这纯粹是因为它们需要更多的能量。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Electric bills are higher, and they don't last as long.
Andrew Huberman：电费较高，而且持续时间较短。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah, exactly.
格伦·杰弗里：是的，完全正确。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
Glen Jeffery: So, when we use LEDs, the light found in LEDs when we use them, certainly we use them on the retina looking at mice, we can watch the mitochondria gently go downhill.
Glen Jeffery：所以，当我们使用 LED 时，我们使用 LED 时发现的光，当然我们在观察小鼠的视网膜上使用它们，我们可以看到线粒体轻轻下坡。
They're far less responsive.
他们的反应要慢得多。
Their membrane potentials are coming down.
他们的膜电位正在下降。
The mitochondria are not breathing very well.
线粒体呼吸不太顺畅。
We can watch that in real time.
我们可以实时观看。
Andrew Huberman: Under LED lighting.
Andrew Huberman：在 LED 照明下。
Glen Jeffery: Under LED lighting at the same energy levels that we would find in a domestic or a commercial environment.
Glen Jeffery：在 LED 照明下，其能量水平与我们在家庭或商业环境中发现的相同。
Andrew Huberman: That's very concerning to me.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这让我非常担心。
Glen Jeffery: It is.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
It was never picked up.
它从未被拾起。
Then also, if you do experiments, say for instance, on flies, flies don't live as long under blue light, right?
另外，如果你做实验，例如，在苍蝇上进行实验，苍蝇在蓝光下的寿命不会那么长，对吧？
Their mitochondria, again, decline quite markedly.
它们的线粒体再次显着下降。
You produce less ATP.
您产生的 ATP 较少。
If you look at mice, you find mice start putting on a lot of weight.
如果你观察老鼠，你会发现老鼠的体重开始增加。
They start putting on a lot of weight because their mitochondria are not taking that glucose out, and it's being deposited as fat.
他们的体重开始增加，因为他们的线粒体没有将葡萄糖排出体外，而是以脂肪的形式沉积下来。
Their control of their blood glucose, not surprisingly, becomes unbalanced, and they start to behave slightly peculiarly in open field situations.
毫不奇怪，他们对血糖的控制变得不平衡，并且他们在空旷的环境中开始表现得有些奇怪。
Now, you and I know that when you put a mouse in an open field situation, it's a measure of how confident it feels.
现在，你和我都知道，当你将鼠标放在开阔的场地环境中时，可以衡量它的自信程度。
So, it runs around the edge at first until it feels happy, and then it wanders around the middle and all the rest of it.
所以，它首先绕着边缘运行，直到它感到高兴，然后它绕着中间和其余部分徘徊。
Mice under LED lighting do not make that transition from working around the edge and coming into the center, and that is possibly consistent with the notion they have low-level infection, chronic infection.
LED 照明下的小鼠不会从边缘工作过渡到中心，这可能与它们患有低水平感染、慢性感染的概念一致。
That's all published.
就这样全部公布了。
Now, there's some stunning data coming out of another lab, it will come out early next year, showing that these same mice have fatty livers.
现在，另一个实验室将公布一些令人震惊的数据，该数据将于明年初公布，表明这些小鼠患有脂肪肝。
Again, not really desperately surprising.
再说一次，这并不是非常令人惊讶。
Andrew Huberman: So, same food chow as their full-spectrum light counterparts, but they're under LED lighting, and they've got fatty livers.
Andrew Huberman：所以，与全光谱光对应物相同的食物，但它们在 LED 照明下，并且患有脂肪肝。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
They've got fatty liver.
他们得了脂肪肝。
But there's a clear systemic effect here because their livers are smaller, their kidneys are smaller, and their hearts are slightly smaller.
但这里有明显的全身效应，因为他们的肝脏较小，肾脏较小，心脏也稍小。
With the liver problems, we get a raise in what we'll call liver distress signals, proteins coming round, one's called ALT, which tells you your liver is not happy at all.
当肝脏出现问题时，我们会得到所谓的肝脏应激信号，即蛋白质的升高，这种信号称为丙氨酸转氨酶（ALT），它告诉您您的肝脏根本不高兴。
Interestingly, where do you also find vast numbers of mitochondria?
有趣的是，你在哪里也能找到大量线粒体？
You find them in sperm.
你可以在精子中找到它们。
So, there is a greater concentration of sperm with abnormal swimming capacity and abnormal morphology in those mice, and the testicles have abnormal morphologies.
因此，这些小鼠体内游泳能力异常、形态异常的精子浓度较高，睾丸形态也异常。
Now, these are animals that are really running towards the end of their life, okay?
现在，这些动物真的正在走向生命的尽头，好吗？
But again, let's put all these things together.
但同样，让我们把所有这些东西放在一起。
This is clearly telling us that it's not just the LED, it's the LED range, which is 420 to 440.
这清楚地告诉我们，这不仅仅是 LED，而是 LED 范围，即 420 到 440。
It's a specific range that the mitochondria absorb, and it's the absence of the red light to counter balance that.
这是线粒体吸收的特定范围，并且没有红光来抵消它。
Andrew Huberman: Got it.
安德鲁·休伯曼：明白了。
So, this is so important for people to hear, and I just want to reiterate something you said earlier.
所以，这对人们来说非常重要，我只想重申一下你之前说过的话。
You said that, at least to your mind, this exposure to excessive amounts of short-wavelength light, because of LEDs, is possibly as serious as asbestos exposure in terms of its detrimental effects to human biology.
您说过，至少在您看来，由于 LED 导致暴露在过量的短波长光下，就其对人体生物学的有害影响而言，可能与石棉暴露一样严重。
Possibly.
可能吧。
Glen Jeffery: Possibly.
格伦·杰弗里：有可能。
That's what we're shuffling around saying, getting confident about it.
这就是我们一直在说的，并对此充满信心。
I'd point out another issue.
我想指出另一个问题。
Now, your colleagues, some are a bit more excitable than others.
现在，你们的同事们，有些人比其他人更兴奋一些。
Some of them are very conservative and sit there...
他们中的一些人非常保守，坐在那里......
Andrew Huberman: It depends on how much red light they're getting under.
Andrew Huberman：这取决于他们闯红灯的程度。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Bad joke, I know.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我知道，这是一个糟糕的笑话。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah, bad joke.
格伦·杰弗里：是的，糟糕的笑话。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Glen Jeffery: Let's look at growth in lifespan in Western Europe.
格伦·杰弗里：让我们看看西欧的寿命增长情况。
Chunks up, chunks up, chunk, chunk, chunk, chunk.
块，块，块，块，块，块。
Slowly, you know, we're living slightly longer on average one year than the next.
慢慢地，你知道，我们一年的平均寿命比下一年稍长一些。
And really you could draw a line along that curve.
实际上你可以沿着那条曲线画一条线。
Yeah, it's relatively straight.
是的，比较直。
We get a dent in the curve and the tendency towards asymptote, which means flattening out, after about 2010.
大约在 2010 年之后，我们的曲线出现了凹痕，并且有渐近线的趋势，这意味着趋于平缓。
Now, that can be corrected for COVID.
现在，这一问题可以针对新冠肺炎进行纠正。
Something is turning that down.
有些东西正在阻止这一点。
Now, I'm not going to say LEDs are shortening the lifespan, but I've got a number of colleagues around me who are saying, "You need to take this one into account."
现在，我不会说 LED 会缩短使用寿命，但我周围的许多同事都在说：“你需要考虑到这一点。”
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
And you did say earlier that amount of sunlight exposure, which includes balanced wavelengths of short, medium, and long wavelengths, is associated with longer life, less all-cause mortality.
您之前确实说过，阳光照射量（包括短波、中波和长波的平衡波长）与更长的寿命和更低的全因死亡率相关。
Glen Jeffery: Yes, definitely.
格伦·杰弗里：是的，当然。
Andrew Huberman: And that brings me to the other point that you made, so I'm aware that I'm just restating what you said.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这让我想到了你提出的另一点，所以我知道我只是重申你所说的内容。
But it's really hovering in my mind as so important that I think people need to hear it again, which is it may not be that short-wavelength light is detrimental to mitochondria, per se.
但这确实在我的脑海中盘旋，因为它非常重要，以至于我认为人们需要再次听到它，这可能不是短波长光本身对线粒体有害。
It's that in the absence of balanced light, you're taking whatever mechanisms that short-wavelength light have on mitochondria, and you're tipping the seesaw in that direction, and the other side of the seesaw would be weighted by long-wavelength light.
就是说，在缺乏平衡光的情况下，您将采用短波长光对线粒体的任何机制，并将跷跷板朝那个方向倾斜，而跷跷板的另一侧将受到长波长光的加权。
So, presumably, because mitochondria evolved under short, medium, and long-wavelength light, I mean, let's be fair, it's not like they evolved under red torches, as you call them, right?
所以，大概是因为线粒体是在短、中、长波长的光下进化的，我的意思是，公平地说，它们不像你所说的那样在红色火炬下进化，对吧？
Glen Jeffery: Mm-hmm.
格伦·杰弗里：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: The balance between these wavelengths is really what's key, and LEDs are just shifting the balance very heavily to short wavelengths.
Andrew Huberman：这些波长之间的平衡确实是关键，而 LED 只是将平衡极大地转向短波长。
So, I realize that we're framing long wavelengths as great and short wavelengths as bad, but like so many things in biology, it seems that it may just be the balance that's important, and that long wavelengths can have this kind of protective effect, to some extent.
所以，我意识到我们将长波长视为伟大，将短波长视为糟糕，但就像生物学中的许多事情一样，似乎重要的是平衡，而长波长在某种程度上可以具有这种保护作用。
But the way I'm thinking about it is that LEDs may be problematic because of just how heavily they weigh one side of the mechanism.
但我的想法是，LED 可能会出现问题，因为它们在机构一侧的重量非常重。
Is that...
难道是……
Glen Jeffery: I think you've got it in one there.
Glen Jeffery：我想你已经明白了。
It's a balance.
这是一种平衡。
Andrew Huberman: As opposed to, being quote-unquote, "Toxic," right?
Andrew Huberman：而不是直接引用“有毒”，对吗？
It would be like saying, we need all three macronutrients.
这就像说，我们需要所有三种常量营养素。
I suppose you could live without carbohydrates, but fats, proteins, and carbohydrates, and people will try and demonize any one of those depending on who they are.
我想你可以在没有碳水化合物的情况下生活，但是没有脂肪、蛋白质和碳水化合物，人们会根据自己的身份尝试妖魔化其中任何一种。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah, yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的，是的。
Andrew Huberman: But most cultures, most humans evolved in the context of eating some amount of all three of those macronutrients, maybe to varying degrees, different seasons, et cetera.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但大多数文化、大多数人类都是在食用一定量的这三种常量营养素的背景下进化的，可能程度不同、季节不同等等。
So, you can't just say that one is bad, you know?
所以，你不能只说一个人不好，知道吗？
Fats are bad, proteins are bad, carbohydrates are bad.
脂肪不好，蛋白质不好，碳水化合物也不好。
It's the weighting of them that's going to influence biology differently.
它们的权重将对生物学产生不同的影响。
It seems like the same thing would hold for light.
似乎同样的事情也适用于光。
So, under...
那么，在...
So, let's frame this in people's minds.
因此，让我们将这一点牢记在人们的脑海中。
Under typical lighting conditions with LEDs.
在 LED 的典型照明条件下。
So, if I go buy a LED light, light bulb, and it doesn't say sunlight mimicking or full spectrum, how little long-wavelength light is there in that bulb compared to sunlight, and how much short-wavelength light is there compared to sunlight?
那么，如果我去买一个 LED 灯、灯泡，并且没有说模仿太阳光或全光谱，那么与太阳光相比，该灯泡中的长波长光有多少，与太阳光相比，有多少短波长光？
And not in terms of intensity, because obviously the sun is generally far more intense than any bulb, but in terms of the distribution of wavelengths.
不是就强度而言，因为显然太阳通常比任何灯泡都强烈得多，而是就波长分布而言。
What sort of situation are we creating with those bulbs?
我们用这些灯泡创造了什么样的情况？
Glen Jeffery: Okay.
格伦·杰弗里：好的。
So, first of all, you know, the way you've described it is absolutely the way I think about it, and I think all our colleagues.
所以，首先，你知道，你所描述的方式绝对是我以及我们所有同事的想法。
It's balance.
这是平衡。
It's balance.
这是平衡。
You should be very careful about what you read on an LED box because people are saying sun-like, right?
您应该非常小心 LED 盒子上显示的内容，因为人们说像太阳一样，对吗？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: Now, I've never found, commercially, an LED that says that that's really gone anything significantly beyond 700.
Glen Jeffery：现在，我在商业上还没有发现任何 LED 的亮度能够显着超过 700。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: Right?
格伦·杰弗里：对吗？
So, it doesn't matter what they're telling you, I'm exceedingly doubtful that commercially anyone has got anything that does that.
因此，无论他们告诉你什么，我都非常怀疑商业上是否有人拥有这样做的东西。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: Because the only way you could do that is to have a vast array of LEDs in a single device.
Glen Jeffery：因为实现这一目标的唯一方法就是在单个设备中安装大量 LED。
So, you know, have an LED at 670, an LED at 700, an LED at...
所以，你知道，一个 LED 的亮度为 670，一个 LED 的亮度为 700，一个 LED 的亮度为……
All the way up to over a 1000.
一直到1000多。
It's not realistic because it's expensive and it draws lots of energy.
这是不现实的，因为它很昂贵并且消耗大量能量。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: And the other thing is that we now have found that the mitochondria knows that it's a compressed load of LEDs, because if you put people under a compressed series of LEDs like that, you don't get the same response or the same positive effect as you do if you put them under an incandescent light where the spectrum is totally smooth.
Glen Jeffery：另一件事是，我们现在发现线粒体知道它是 LED 的压缩负载，因为如果你将人们置于这样的一系列压缩 LED 下，你不会得到与将他们置于光谱完全平滑的白炽灯下相同的响应或相同的积极效果。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: There's no ups and downs at the top of them.
Glen Jeffery：巅峰时期没有起伏。
It's totally smooth.
非常顺利。
Now, how a mitochondria does that is completely and utterly beyond me.
现在，线粒体如何做到这一点完全超出了我的范围。
Andrew Huberman: But it makes sense.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但这有道理。
The mitochondria evolved under sunlight.
线粒体在阳光下进化。
Glen Jeffery: Under sunlight, yeah.
Glen Jeffery：在阳光下，是的。
Andrew Huberman: And sunlight is a smooth, when you say smooth, as opposed to bumps, what Glen is referring to is, short wavelengths leading, you said it's a continuum leading up to long wavelengths.
安德鲁·休伯曼：阳光是平滑的，当你说平滑而不是凹凸时，格伦指的是短波长领先，你说它是通向长波长的连续体。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah, it's a continuum.
格伦·杰弗里：是的，这是一个连续体。
Andrew Huberman: Sunlight has that.
Andrew Huberman：阳光就是这样。
We'll talk about incandescents in a moment.
我们稍后将讨论白炽灯。
And these LEDs have these spikes of short, medium, and longish wavelength light, but they're not actually mimicking sunlight.
这些 LED 具有短、中和长波长光的尖峰，但它们实际上并没有模仿阳光。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
No. And isn't it amazing that mitochondria can sort that one out?
不。线粒体能够解决这个问题，这不是很神奇吗？
Andrew Huberman: I think it's really cool.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为这真的很酷。
Glen Jeffery: And just makes me feel, by the time it's all over for me, I'll have got one bite at this apple, but there's a load more there that I think we're going to find out.
格伦·杰弗里：这让我觉得，当一切都结束时，我已经咬了一口这个苹果了，但我想我们还会发现更多的东西。
They're doing things that are just inconceivable at the moment.
他们正在做一些目前难以想象的事情。
Andrew Huberman: What about incandescent bulbs and fire?
Andrew Huberman：白炽灯泡和火怎么样？
I mean, aside from being concerned that people are going to burn their apartments and homes down if they use candlelight or firelight at night, how healthy is candlelight?
我的意思是，除了担心人们在晚上使用烛光或火光会烧毁他们的公寓和房屋之外，烛光有多健康？
Glen Jeffery: Mm-hmm.
格伦·杰弗里：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: How healthy is incandescent light with respect to the mitochondria?
Andrew Huberman：白炽灯对于线粒体来说有多健康？
Glen Jeffery: So, look, well, I think we're going to leave candlelight out of it, because to get enough light out of a candle, we're going to have to have copious amounts of candles.
格伦·杰弗里：所以，听着，我想我们要把烛光排除在外，因为为了从蜡烛中获得足够的光，我们必须有大量的蜡烛。
Andrew Huberman: And that's where people burn down structures.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这就是人们烧毁建筑物的地方。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah, yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的，是的。
And, I noticed here in California people have got lots of wooden houses.
而且，我注意到在加利福尼亚州人们有很多木屋。
Let's stay away from that one.
让我们远离那个人吧。
Andrew Huberman: Got a lot of what?
Andrew Huberman：有很多什么？
Glen Jeffery: Wooden houses.
格伦·杰弗里：木屋。
Andrew Huberman: Well, we had a serious fire issue this very area.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：嗯，我们这个地区遇到了严重的火灾问题。
Glen Jeffery: Yes, I know.
格伦·杰弗里：是的，我知道。
Andrew Huberman: I mean, as you're coming in the Pacific Coast Highway, you may have noticed.
Andrew Huberman：我的意思是，当您驶入太平洋海岸高速公路时，您可能已经注意到了。
Glen Jeffery: You can see it.
格伦·杰弗里：你可以看到。
Andrew Huberman: That used to be covered with homes.
安德鲁·休伯曼：那曾经被房屋覆盖。
I mean, it was a devastating fire, yeah.
我的意思是，那是一场毁灭性的火灾，是的。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
To a first approximation, the spectrum of light that you get from an incandescent light bulb is highly similar to solar light, right?
初步估计，从白炽灯泡获得的光谱与太阳光非常相似，对吧？
So, it covers almost the same range.
因此，它涵盖了几乎相同的范围。
It's a smooth function.
这是一个平滑的函数。
We drift gently from short wavelengths into medium wavelengths into long wavelengths.
我们轻轻地从短波长漂移到中波长再到长波长。
So, in evolution, we were wandering around in sunlight.
所以，在进化过程中，我们在阳光下徘徊。
We then made the transition to fires producing the same light, and that's quite interesting.
然后我们过渡到产生相同光线的火，这非常有趣。
Where do we use fires?
我们在哪里使用火？
We use fires as we move further north, as we come out of Africa, as we move into...
当我们向北移动时，当我们离开非洲时，当我们进入……时，我们会使用火。
I mean, why did people...
我的意思是，为什么人们...
It's beyond me, having come for this interview from northern Europe in winter, it's beyond me as to why they ever did that because it's grim.
这超出了我的能力范围，因为我是在冬天从北欧来到这里接受采访的，我不明白他们为什么要这么做，因为情况很严峻。
But they had a light source that was very solar-like.
但他们有一个非常像太阳的光源。
And so, there was no issue there, I don't think.
所以，我认为那里没有问题。
So, it's that really very dramatic change that happens in the early 2000s.
所以，这确实是 2000 年代初发生的非常戏剧性的变化。
Your body has never experienced such confined, limited spectrum of light, never experienced it before.
你的身体从未经历过如此受限、有限的光谱，以前从未经历过。
And one of the other issues that relates particularly to devices that people may use to increase the amount of long-wavelength light they get, some of these devices are lasers.
其他问题之一特别与人们用来增加获得的长波长光量的设备有关，其中一些设备是激光器。
No living entity has ever seen monochromatic light before.
以前没有生物体见过单色光。
It is a totally alien thing to life.
这对生活来说是完全陌生的事情。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, but please folks, do not shine lasers into your eyes.
Andrew Huberman：是的，但是请大家不要将激光照射到您的眼睛。
Glen Jeffery: No. Do not.
格伦·杰弗里：不。不要。
Andrew Huberman: And in fact, don't shine lasers on your skin.
Andrew Huberman：事实上，不要用激光照射你的皮肤。
The only people who should be shining lasers on bodies are trained medical professionals for which there's an important medical procedure being done.
唯一应该用激光照射身体的人是经过培训的医疗专业人员，他们正在接受重要的医疗程序。
I'm going to encourage you to be willing to answer this even though I realize it's a bit of an uncomfortable space for you.
我会鼓励您愿意回答这个问题，尽管我意识到这对您来说有点不舒服。
For artificial long wavelength light-generating devices, like the red, near infrared, and infrared, some of these are fairly high power.
对于人造长波长光产生装置，如红光、近红外光和红外线，其中一些具有相当高的功率。
There are a growing number of papers, certainly in dermatology and pain relief.
论文数量不断增加，尤其是皮肤病学和止痛领域的论文。
Glen Jeffery: Mm-hmm.
格伦·杰弗里：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I mean, not a ton of papers, but actually it was a cover of what I was told was one of the more prestigious dermatology journals.
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：我的意思是，不是很多论文，但实际上这是我听说的最负盛名的皮肤病学期刊之一的封面。
It's starting to evaluate what we call photobiomodulation with long-wavelength light.
它开始评估我们所说的长波长光光生物调节。
Glen Jeffery: Mm-hmm.
格伦·杰弗里：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: When you look at those devices, do you think that exposure to those can offset the negative effects of LED lighting in a meaningful way?
Andrew Huberman：当您查看这些设备时，您是否认为接触这些设备可以以有意义的方式抵消 LED 照明的负面影响？
Glen Jeffery: First of all, I think the majority of them do no harm.
格伦·杰弗里：首先，我认为其中大多数都没有害处。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: I suspect that the majority of them have a positive impact.
Glen Jeffery：我怀疑其中大多数都会产生积极影响。
But we've opened up a lot of those devices, and they're pretty poor.
但我们已经开放了很多这样的设备，但它们的性能都很差。
Andrew Huberman: Poor in terms of the amount of energy?
Andrew Huberman：能量不足？
Glen Jeffery: Poor in terms of how they're put together, first of all.
Glen Jeffery：首先，它们的组合方式很差。
The value of the components.
组件的值。
Andrew Huberman: Okay, got it.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的，明白了。
Glen Jeffery: When you get an LED, an LED's like buying a car.
Glen Jeffery：当您购买 LED 时，就像购买汽车一样。
You can buy a bad car or you can buy a very good car.
你可以买一辆不好的车，也可以买一辆很好的车。
A lot of the LEDs are not what they say they are, certainly when it comes to things like 670 nanometers, which is popular.
很多 LED 并不像他们所说的那样，尤其是像流行的 670 纳米这样的 LED。
They're hard to get, so they're not what they say they are.
它们很难获得，所以它们并不像他们所说的那样。
And very often they're not what they say they are a year down the road when they've been on and off for a long period of time.
而且很多时候，当他们断断续续很长一段时间后，他们的表现并不像他们所说的那样。
Andrew Huberman: Well, I think there's a range of qualities, as well.
Andrew Huberman：嗯，我认为也有一系列的品质。
Some are medical grade, some are not.
有些是医疗级的，有些不是。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Some are used actively by medical clinics, some are not.
Andrew Huberman：有些被医疗诊所积极使用，有些则没有。
I hear you.
我听到了。
I think it's like any industry associated with health and wellness, as it's called.
我认为这就像任何与健康和保健相关的行业一样。
I think there's a range.
我认为有一个范围。
So, in terms of prescriptives as it relates to indoor lighting, let's set aside long-wavelength light emitting devices, incandescent sound like the perfect solution.
因此，就与室内照明相关的规定而言，让我们抛开长波长发光设备，白炽灯听起来就像是完美的解决方案。
But can I still buy incandescent bulbs?
但我还能购买白炽灯泡吗？
Glen Jeffery: Not in North America.
Glen Jeffery：不在北美。
You can't buy classic incandescents.
你买不到经典的白炽灯。
Andrew Huberman: They're gone?
安德鲁·休伯曼：他们走了？
Glen Jeffery: Yeah, I think I signed a petition to try and keep them about six months ago, and I don't know what the status of it is now.
格伦·杰弗里：是的，我想我大约六个月前签署了一份请愿书，试图保留它们，但我不知道它现在的状态如何。
You should still be able to get halogen bulbs, which are almost identical to incandescent.
您仍然应该可以获得卤素灯泡，它几乎与白炽灯相同。
They're a type of incandescent.
它们是白炽灯的一种。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: And the point here is that you can't have LED lights in ovens because they melt, okay?
Glen Jeffery：重点是，烤箱中不能使用 LED 灯，因为它们会融化，好吗？
So, generally, incandescents are retained for a few special reasons.
因此，一般来说，出于一些特殊原因而保留白炽灯。
The importance of these I think is highlighted by something that should come out just before Christmas, one of our studies, where at University College London, we have some buildings without windows.
我认为这些的重要性应该在圣诞节前发布，这是我们的一项研究，在伦敦大学学院，我们有一些没有窗户的建筑物。
And they've got some pretty harsh LED lighting in them.
而且它们里面有一些相当刺眼的 LED 照明。
And what we did last year, with those is we went in there and we measured all the people, the staff in there, we measured their ability to detect color.
去年我们所做的就是，我们走进那里，测量了所有的人，那里的工作人员，我们测量了他们检测颜色的能力。
Then we gave them a whole series of desk lamps, 40-watt incandescent desk lamps, and we said, "You don't have to look at this.
然后我们给了他们一整套台灯，40瓦的白炽台灯，我们说，“你不用看这个。
Just move around." You know, if that's on your desk...
就走动一下吧。”你知道，如果那在你的桌子上......
But a lot of them were architectural model makers.
但他们中的很多人都是建筑模型制作者。
So, they'd be sitting at their desk for a little bit of the time, then they'd be going off gluing two bits of wood together.
因此，他们会在办公桌前坐一会儿，然后开始将两块木头粘在一起。
Andrew Huberman: Where's the light directed for these people?
Andrew Huberman：这些人的光芒在哪里？
Glen Jeffery: Just directed down.
Glen Jeffery：刚刚指示下来。
Andrew Huberman: It's directed down, not at their eyes.
Andrew Huberman：它是向下的，而不是对着他们的眼睛。
Glen Jeffery: No, no.
格伦·杰弗里：不，不。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
Glen Jeffery: It's supplementing their whole environment.
Glen Jeffery：它补充了他们的整个环境。
So, we walked away from that, and we left them...
所以，我们离开了，我们离开了他们......
I think we left them for two weeks.
我想我们离开他们两周了。
And we came back, and we measured their color perception again.
我们回来后，再次测量了他们的颜色感知。
And we got so much better an effect than we ever got with reduced-spectrum long-wavelength LEDs.
我们得到的效果比使用缩减光谱长波长 LED 的效果要好得多。
It was...
这是...
Well, I may just go back and do all the analysis again.
好吧，我可能会回去重新进行所有分析。
I was really surprised.
我真的很惊讶。
So, with the LEDs, what you tend to do is, the long-wavelength ones, you improve your perception of blue a bit more than your perception of red, and this is a bit of a complex story, and it's all over in five days.
因此，对于 LED，您倾向于做的是长波长 LED，您对蓝色的感知比对红色的感知要多一点，这是一个有点复杂的故事，五天内就结束了。
These characters, their perception of blue and red, both improved to the same extent, and it was very significant.
这些人物，对于蓝色和红色的感知，都有同样程度的提升，而且非常显着。
And then we took the bulbs away, and we thought, "Well, we'll come back six days later, and we'll see where they are." And we came back.
然后我们把灯泡拿走了，我们想，“好吧，六天后我们会回来，看看它们在哪里。”我们回来了。
They were exactly the same.
他们完全一样。
Their perception hadn't declined.
他们的感知并没有下降。
Andrew Huberman: The improvement was maintained.
Andrew Huberman：改进得以维持。
Glen Jeffery: The improvement was maintained.
Glen Jeffery：改善得以维持。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: We went back a month later.
格伦·杰弗里：一个月后我们回去了。
The improvement was maintained.
改善得以维持。
We went back a month later.
一个月后我们就回去了。
The improvement was maintained.
改善得以维持。
Andrew Huberman: Hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Glen Jeffery: So I'm tracing all these people, what their lives are like, and the rest of it.
格伦·杰弗里：所以我正在追踪所有这些人，他们的生活是什么样的，以及其他的。
It was in November, December, so they weren't getting much daylight.
当时是十一月、十二月，所以他们没有太多的日光。
They were rather...
他们相当...
Yeah.
是的。
Well, they were in a situation that all people are in northern Europe.
嗯，他们的处境是所有人都在北欧。
And then we had a problem.
然后我们遇到了问题。
It was Christmas.
那是圣诞节。
Experiment ended.
实验结束。
But let's think about this.
但我们想一想。
These people not only had more significant improvement than they would get with red light, the effect lasted much longer.
这些人不仅比红光获得了更显着的改善，而且效果持续时间更长。
Now, one of the things that makes me think now, I go back, and I think about our experimental results.
现在，让我思考的一件事是，我回去思考我们的实验结果。
Why did I get such good experimental results in whatever it was I was doing?
为什么我无论做什么都能得到这么好的实验结果？
Is it simply because I'm drawing my subjects from a population of human beings who are living under LED lights?
难道只是因为我的拍摄对象是生活在 LED 灯下的人群吗？
If I went and did those same experiments on a group of farm assistants, or people who are doing surveying of the countryside, would I get the same effect?
如果我去对一群农场助理或正在农村调查的人做同样的实验，我会得到同样的效果吗？
I think that in the built environment, we are suffering from a suppression of our physiology.
我认为在建筑环境中，我们的生理机能受到抑制。
I have to be careful here about not going over the top.
我在这里必须小心，不要做得太过分。
But we're suffering from a suppression of our physiology via mitochondria, that is just being produced by the built environment.
但我们的生理机能受到线粒体的抑制，而线粒体是由建筑环境产生的。
And a point that I really need to make here, because I now spend a lot of time talking to architects.
我确实需要在这里指出这一点，因为我现在花了很多时间与建筑师交谈。
I spend more time talking to architects than I do talking to ophthalmologists or medics.
我与建筑师交谈的时间比与眼科医生或医生交谈的时间还要多。
You put a building up, invariably, the majority of the phases of that building will go over budget.
当你建造一座建筑时，该建筑的大部分阶段都会超出预算。
It's rare for a building to come in under budget.
一座建筑的预算低于预算的情况很少见。
The last thing to go into a building is the lighting.
进入建筑物的最后一件事是照明。
It is the very last.
这是最后一次。
It goes in after the glass.
它从玻璃后面进去。
Okay?
好的？
Where do you take your cut on your overexpenditure?
您从哪里削减超支开支？
You take your cut on the lighting.
你对灯光有自己的看法。
You buy the cheapest LEDs you can, and the cheapest LEDs have got the restricted spectrum.
你可以购买最便宜的 LED，而最便宜的 LED 的光谱是有限的。
And to add insult to injury on this, to retain thermal regulation of the building, all commercial buildings and all big buildings, now, not domestic ones, will invariably have infrared blocking glass.
雪上加霜的是，为了保持建筑物的热调节，所有商业建筑和所有大型建筑（现在不是住宅建筑）都将始终配备红外线阻挡玻璃。
So you get the first hit on the fact that your LEDs are pretty awful, undermining your mitochondria.
所以你首先会发现你的 LED 非常糟糕，会破坏你的线粒体。
The second is, you're isolated from the visual world outside by the infrared blocking glass.
第二是，你被红外线阻挡玻璃与外界的视觉世界隔离。
This is a double hit, and I think that double hit is quite significant.
这是双重打击，我认为双重打击是相当有意义的。
Now, we have had a major, probably one of the world's largest architects firms that have just won a very big contract in the USA for a hospital, walk through the door and say, "What is this about healthy lighting?" And I know they're putting their money on the table on this one, because they have a vast area where all the architects sit.
现在，我们有一家大型建筑公司，可能是世界上最大的建筑公司之一，刚刚在美国赢得了一份非常大的医院合同，走进门说：“健康照明是什么？”我知道他们把钱押在了这个项目上，因为他们有一个广阔的空间，所有的建筑师都坐在那里。
It's like an aircraft hangar.
它就像一个飞机库。
And they're stripping out all the LEDs.
他们正在拆除所有 LED。
Andrew Huberman: So, what I'm gathering is that if people spend a lot of time outside, A: that's a good thing.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：所以，我收集到的是，如果人们花很多时间在外面，答：这是一件好事。
Glen Jeffery: Mm-hmm.
格伦·杰弗里：嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: B: You probably don't need to supplement your indoor lighting environment.
Andrew Huberman：B：您可能不需要补充室内照明环境。
LEDs might even be fine for those folks.
LED 甚至可能适合这些人。
Although you wouldn't recommend it.
虽然你不会推荐它。
Doesn't sound like they need to, quote-unquote, "supplement" with incandescent or with long-wavelength light exposure from a device.
听起来他们不需要用白炽灯或设备的长波长光照射来“补充”。
For people, which I think is most people nowadays, who are under LED lighting, a significant portion of the day, in a building with glass that filters the bright sunlight to control the temperature and make sure there isn't a lot of glaringly bright light coming in at certain phases of the day, they certainly should try and get outside.
对于人们来说，我认为是现在的大多数人，一天中很大一部分时间都在 LED 照明下，在一座装有玻璃的建筑物中，玻璃可以过滤明亮的阳光来控制温度，并确保在一天中的某些阶段没有太多刺眼的明亮光线进入，他们当然应该尝试出去。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Andrew Huberman: But when they can't take their lunch outside, take a call outside, get outside.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：但是当他们不能在外面吃午餐时，就打电话到外面，出去。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Light clothing is going to be fine because the long-wavelength light will pass through, as your colleague discovery, literally go through their body, scatter, et cetera.
Andrew Huberman：轻薄的衣服就可以了，因为长波长的光会穿过，正如你的同事发现的那样，实际上会穿过他们的身体，散射等等。
But they may choose to supplement with a halogen or incandescent, even just a table lamp for a short period of time, now and again, especially, it seems, in winter, this would be beneficial.
但他们可能会选择偶尔补充一下卤素灯或白炽灯，甚至只是短时间的台灯，尤其是在冬天，这似乎是有益的。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: And where I worry the most about light environments as it relates to diminishing mitochondrial function is in kids who are staring at screens, not getting outside enough because of screens, classrooms, et cetera.
Andrew Huberman：我最担心的光环境是那些盯着屏幕、因为屏幕、教室等原因而无法充分出门的孩子，因为它与线粒体功能减弱有关。
What do we know about screen light?
我们对屏幕光了解多少？
You know, I, like many people, will dim down my screen in the evening if I'm going to be on my computer.
你知道，像许多人一样，如果我要使用电脑，我会在晚上调暗屏幕。
I do wear short-wavelength-blocking glasses; I wouldn't say after sundown, but after dark, really helps my transition to sleep for obvious reasons.
我确实戴了短波阻挡眼镜；我不会说日落后，但天黑后，确实有助于我过渡到睡眠，原因显而易见。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I learned that people's sensitivity to light, in terms of how it impacts sleep, varies quite a lot.
Andrew Huberman：我了解到，就光对睡眠的影响而言，人们对光的敏感度差异很大。
Glen Jeffery: Yes, it does.
格伦·杰弗里：是的，确实如此。
Andrew Huberman: Some people can stare at blue light and fall asleep, no problem.
Andrew Huberman：有些人可以盯着蓝光入睡，没问题。
Other people do that; they're waking up in the middle of the night.
其他人也这么做；他们在半夜醒来。
I'm very sensitive to it.
我对此非常敏感。
But the blood glucose-elevating effects of short-wavelength light at night seem pretty ubiquitous.
但夜间短波长光引起血糖升高的作用似乎相当普遍。
There's this study, I don't know if you're familiar with it.
有一个研究，不知道你是否熟悉。
It was done, and it was published in the proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
它完成了，并发表在《美国国家科学院院刊》上。
They had people, I think it was kids actually, sleep under a one-hundred-lux overhead light.
他们有人，我想实际上是孩子们，睡在一百勒克斯的头顶灯下。
So their eyes are closed.
所以他们的眼睛是闭着的。
One hundred lux is very dim.
一百勒克斯非常暗。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And as compared to complete darkness, or it wasn't complete darkness, I think it was, like, a one-to-ten lux lighting condition, you saw elevated blood morning glucose.
Andrew Huberman：与完全黑暗或不是完全黑暗相比，我认为在一到十勒克斯的照明条件下，您会看到早晨血糖升高。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Which is not good, right?
Andrew Huberman：这不好，对吧？
That reflects a cortisol increase.
这反映了皮质醇的增加。
So it's not just about sleep, it's about blood glucose regulation, et cetera.
所以这不仅仅与睡眠有关，还与血糖调节等有关。
So, I'm summarizing here quite a lot of things, and I'm speculating here and there as well.
所以，我在这里总结了很多东西，也在这里和那里进行了推测。
Do you think people need to supplement with long-wavelength light if they're not getting outside enough, or they work in one of these LED-rich environments?
您认为如果人们外出次数不够，或者在这些富含 LED 的环境中工作，他们是否需要补充长波长光？
Glen Jeffery: Okay, let's backtrack a little bit, particularly about the kids and screens.
格伦·杰弗里：好吧，让我们回顾一下，特别是关于孩子和屏幕。
So, myself and a load of my colleagues have sat with a blue screen staring at it all day, for days.
因此，我自己和我的很多同事整天坐在蓝屏前盯着它，连续好几天。
Mind-bogglingly boring thing to do.
令人难以置信的无聊事情。
It had almost no effect on it.
对它几乎没有任何影响。
Andrew Huberman: Oh, you've done that experiment?
Andrew Huberman：哦，你做过那个实验吗？
Glen Jeffery: We've done that experiment.
格伦·杰弗里：我们已经做了那个实验。
Andrew Huberman: Oh, I thought you were just describing your life.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哦，我以为你只是在描述你的生活。
Glen Jeffery: No, no.
格伦·杰弗里：不，不。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
Glen Jeffery: And I think the answer is that the blue in most of those screens is actually rather long-wavelength blue.
格伦·杰弗里：我认为答案是大多数屏幕中的蓝色实际上是相当长波长的蓝色。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: So it's blue, pushing 450 plus.
Glen Jeffery：所以它是蓝色的，推动 450 以上。
So, it's not in that danger zone, which I regard as 420 to 440.
所以，它不在那个危险区域，我认为是 420 到 440。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: I think it's outside it.
Glen Jeffery：我认为这超出了范围。
And I know we talked at one point to a major American computer manufacturer about this issue, about the screen.
我知道我们曾与一家美国主要计算机制造商讨论过这个问题，即屏幕问题。
So, I am not as worried about that as I thought I would've been.
所以，我并不像我想象的那样担心。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: But there is a separate issue, and it's one that the pediatric ophthalmologists are very concerned about, and that is particularly close work in kids.
格伦·杰弗里（Glen Jeffery）：但是还有一个单独的问题，这是儿科眼科医生非常关心的问题，尤其是在儿童中的密切工作。
Close work combined with a lot of screen work and the issue of myopia.
近距离工作加上大量的屏幕工作和近视问题。
Andrew Huberman: Close work being, staring at something within a foot or, or two?
Andrew Huberman：近距离工作，盯着一英尺或两英尺内的东西？
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Glen Jeffery: And myopia.
格伦·杰弗里：还有近视。
Now, this is a very big issue in Asia, and in China.
现在，这在亚洲和中国都是一个非常大的问题。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: And we know that the absence of long-wavelength light is a driver.
Glen Jeffery：我们知道，缺乏长波长光是一个驱动因素。
My problem is, I can't work out why.
我的问题是，我不明白为什么。
Now, I should fundamentally be a pragmatist and say, "If we know it's a driver, then let's just supplement it."
现在，我从根本上应该是一个实用主义者，并说：“如果我们知道它是一个驱动程序，那么我们就补充它。”
Andrew Huberman: When you say it's a driver, it's creating this problem.
Andrew Huberman：当你说它是一个驱动程序时，它就造成了这个问题。
Glen Jeffery: It is part of the thing that's creating this problem.
Glen Jeffery：这是造成这个问题的部分原因。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: Now, myopia is a really big issue because, okay, we can control myopia by just giving you different lenses, right?
格伦·杰弗里：现在，近视是一个非常大的问题，因为我们可以通过给你不同的镜片来控制近视，对吧？
So, your child will be able to read the text even though they've got myopia.
因此，即使您的孩子患有近视，他们也能够阅读文字。
The trouble is that when that child reaches 40 or 50, the retina has been stretched because the eye has grown too long.
问题是，当孩子到了 40 或 50 岁时，由于眼睛长得太长，视网膜就被拉长了。
And as the retina stretches, as you age, and you lose cells, so the retina becomes a little less cohesive, you get tears, and you can get a form of macular degeneration.
随着视网膜的伸展，随着年龄的增长，细胞会丢失，视网膜的粘性就会减弱，你会流泪，并且可能会患上某种形式的黄斑变性。
Andrew Huberman: Yikes.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哎呀。
Glen Jeffery: So, this is a major concern, particularly in China, and they've taken a number of steps to deal with it.
格伦·杰弗里：所以，这是一个主要问题，特别是在中国，他们已经采取了许多措施来解决这个问题。
One of which, for instance, is in the classroom, they put a bar on the desk, so the kids can't actually sit too far forward to read the text.
例如，其中之一是在教室里，他们在桌子上放了一个横杆，这样孩子们实际上就不能坐得太靠前来阅读课文。
Andrew Huberman: Whoa.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哇哦。
Glen Jeffery: Right?
格伦·杰弗里：对吗？
So, to increase the distance.
所以，要增加距离。
They've also got into the red light, but part of the problem there is they've used lasers.
他们也闯入了红灯，但部分问题是他们使用了激光。
So they've got a restriction in myopic development.
所以他们的近视发展受到了限制。
But at the same time, when you go back and look at them, there are spots in the retina where the laser has affected.
但与此同时，当你回头看它们时，你会发现视网膜上出现了受到激光影响的斑点。
Andrew Huberman: Negatively.
安德鲁·休伯曼： 是否定的。
Glen Jeffery: Negatively.
格伦·杰弗里：是否定的。
Andrew Huberman: It is burning out pieces of retina.
安德鲁·休伯曼：它正在烧毁视网膜碎片。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
But you know, people come along, and they say, "Well, look, we only used 10 milliwatts per centimeter squared." Same as an LED.
但你知道，人们过来后会说：“好吧，看，我们每平方厘米只使用了 10 毫瓦。”与 LED 相同。
The thing that they don't get is that laser light scatters in a very different way from LEDs.
他们不明白的是，激光的散射方式与 LED 非常不同。
LED light scatters uniformly.
LED 光散射均匀。
Andrew Huberman: Why do you think they use lasers?
Andrew Huberman：你认为他们为什么使用激光？
Glen Jeffery: Because it sounds good.
格伦·杰弗里：因为听起来不错。
We're using light.
我们正在使用光。
We're doing something more powerful.
我们正在做一些更强大的事情。
That's a problem around this whole industry.
这是整个行业都存在的问题。
We're doing powerful things.
我们正在做一些强有力的事情。
Andrew Huberman: Hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Glen Jeffery: Now, laser light does not scatter evenly when it hits tissue.
Glen Jeffery：现在，激光在击中组织时不会均匀散射。
It forms something called caustics.
它形成一种叫做焦散的东西。
And caustics are the sorts of things you see, sometimes, on a shallow lake where it's rippling, and you get bright spots, and you get dark spots.
焦散是你有时在一个泛着涟漪的浅湖上看到的东西，你会看到亮点，也会看到暗点。
Those bright spots are what you get in laser light, these caustics.
这些亮点就是你在激光中得到的，这些焦散。
So the energy is tripling or quadrupling in certain areas.
因此，某些区域的能量增加了三倍或四倍。
So, I mean, I didn't know what a caustic was until I started to talk to physicists.
所以，我的意思是，直到我开始与物理学家交谈之前我并不知道什么是焦散。
Reiterate on you, never ever use a laser, unless there is a profound medical reason for doing so.
重申一下，永远不要使用激光，除非有深刻的医学原因。
And certainly, myopia, which is going to be a ticking time bomb.
当然，近视也是一颗定时炸弹。
No current politician is particularly concerned, because it's going to be another person's problem in the future.
现任政治家没有特别担心，因为这将成为未来另一个人的问题。
So, windows in classes, very important.
所以，课堂上的窗户，非常重要。
Andrew Huberman: And not tinted windows.
Andrew Huberman：而且不是有色窗户。
Glen Jeffery: Not tinted windows.
Glen Jeffery：不是有色窗户。
We're currently talking about putting a few incandescent lights in.
我们目前正在讨论安装一些白炽灯。
Schools generally are stretched for money.
学校普遍资金紧张。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: And their first reaction is "This is going to cost us a lot more." Well, the answer actually is to put a dimmer switch on the incandescent light bulb.
格伦·杰弗里：他们的第一反应是“这会让我们付出更多的代价。”嗯，答案实际上是在白炽灯泡上安装一个调光开关。
Even though it appears dim to you, still producing loads of infrared light because it's getting warm.
尽管它对你来说看起来很暗，但仍然会产生大量的红外光，因为它正在变暖。
The other thing that we've not touched on, which is, I think, very important in the architectural world and the school world, is that all plant matter reflects infrared light.
我们还没有触及的另一件事是，我认为这在建筑界和学校界非常重要，那就是所有植物都会反射红外光。
You grab a plant out here in California, where maybe it's 80 degrees, the leaf is not hot.
你在加利福尼亚州抓起一株植物，那里的温度可能是 80 度，叶子并不热。
Why does that happen?
为什么会发生这种情况？
It's because it reflects infrared light.
这是因为它反射红外线。
Now, if you go up to a plant in brilliant sunlight and you put your measuring equipment on it, the light that's being reflective is just a small reach away from what we think of the smallest therapeutic dose could be.
现在，如果您在明亮的阳光下走到一棵植物前，并将测量设备放在上面，那么反射的光距离我们认为的最小治疗剂量仅一小段距离。
So, planting trees to reflect the infrared light that is available to you is very important.
因此，种植树木来反射可用的红外线非常重要。
Architects are really getting that one.
建筑师们确实明白了这一点。
Andrew Huberman: Does it have to be trees, or can it just be indoor plants, and having an incandescent sort, sometimes?
Andrew Huberman：它必须是树木，还是可以只是室内植物，并且有时具有白炽灯类型？
Glen Jeffery: Well, okay, have an incandescent source, but have also plants on the outside that are getting sunlight, because they're going to bounce the infrared back to you.
格伦·杰弗里：好吧，有一个白炽光源，但在外面也有能接受阳光的植物，因为它们会将红外线反射回给你。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: One of the physicists in our lab, Edward Barrett, has a fantastic infrared camera, and he goes around taking infrared photographs.
格伦·杰弗里（Glen Jeffery）：我们实验室的一位物理学家爱德华·巴雷特（Edward Barrett）拥有一台很棒的红外相机，他四处拍摄红外照片。
And we were in an office building, and there was some blackout blinds or very thick blinds, and when we looked through the infrared camera, there was a small fire at the bottom of these curtains.
我们在一栋办公楼里，有一些遮光百叶窗或非常厚的百叶窗，当我们通过红外摄像机查看时，这些窗帘的底部有一个小火。
I mean, just really surprised.
我的意思是，真的很惊讶。
And then we pulled back the curtain, and there was a row of plants.
然后我们拉开窗帘，出现了一排植物。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: And there is...
格伦·杰弗里：还有……
The name completely escapes me.
我完全忘记了这个名字。
There is a city in the Midwest where the authorities planted something like 1,000 trees.
中西部有一座城市，当局在那里种植了大约 1,000 棵树。
And what they did was they measured blood markers, that were blood markers of stress, including complement-related protein, which is a sign of systemic inflammation.
他们所做的是测量血液标记物，即压力的血液标记物，包括补体相关蛋白，这是全身炎症的标志。
And they planted these trees, and they went back, I think two or three years later, and measured these metrics, and they got a significant reduction.
他们种植了这些树，我想两三年后他们又回去测量了这些指标，结果发现树木数量显着减少。
Now, that is interesting, right?
现在，这很有趣，对吧？
So, my big question, and it's one that I'm trying to get ethics to do now, is what happens to your blood as you pass from a concrete building?
所以，我的一个大问题，也是我现在正在努力让道德去做的一个问题，是当你从混凝土建筑中经过时，你的血液会发生什么变化？
You sit in a concrete building for five hours.
你在一座混凝土建筑里坐了五个小时。
It's horrible.
太可怕了。
You're getting no infrared light.
你没有收到红外线。
You've got infrared blocking windows.
你有红外线阻挡窗。
You've got LEDs.
你有 LED。
What happens when I wheel you into a park?
当我推着你进公园时会发生什么？
What happens when I wheel you into Woodland?
当我推着你进入林地时会发生什么？
You know you feel so much better.
你知道你感觉好多了。
Everybody says, "I feel so much..." Well, if you feel better, something's happening.
每个人都会说，“我感觉好多了……”好吧，如果你感觉好些了，那就说明有事情发生了。
What is happening?
怎么了？
So it's not only about the light that we have in the built environment, it's about the glass that we have in the built environment, and it's about plant matter.
因此，这不仅与我们在建筑环境中拥有的光线有关，还与我们在建筑环境中拥有的玻璃有关，还与植物物质有关。
Plant matter, should we be planting plants, for instance, on the north side of buildings, which are tall, because they will hit the light level, and they have the capacity to reflect it back through, into the building?
植物问题，例如，我们是否应该在建筑物的北侧种植植物，这些植物很高，因为它们会达到光照水平，并且有能力将其反射回建筑物中？
Andrew Huberman: I can tell you've been spending a lot of time with architects.
Andrew Huberman：我可以看出您花了很多时间与建筑师相处。
And there are a couple of things that are really striking.
有几件事确实令人震惊。
One, it's very clear that as we become more and more modern as a species, we're going to look for more cost and energy-efficient ways to do things.
第一，很明显，随着我们作为一个物种变得越来越现代化，我们将寻找更具成本效益和能源效率的做事方式。
LEDs are a good example of that.
LED 就是一个很好的例子。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And I think LEDs have been very beneficial across a number of different industries.
Andrew Huberman：我认为 LED 对许多不同行业都非常有益。
But that, you know, as we move away from agricultural living for most people, nowadays, people even will just have food delivered as opposed to going to restaurants.
但是，你知道，随着我们摆脱大多数人的农业生活，如今，人们甚至只会吃外卖，而不是去餐馆。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Andrew Huberman: That's happening more and more.
Andrew Huberman：这种情况发生得越来越多。
And I think it's a required effort to bring the critical elements of the outside indoors.
我认为将室外的关键元素带入室内是必要的努力。
Glen Jeffery: Yes.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And it sounds kind of crazy, but people will exercise indoors.
Andrew Huberman：这听起来有点疯狂，但人们会在室内锻炼。
I try and exercise outside if I can, but I can't always do that.
如果可以的话，我会尝试去户外锻炼，但我不能总是这样做。
But we're now talking about bringing long-wavelength light indoors, and bringing balanced full-spectrum light indoors.
但我们现在正在讨论将长波长光引入室内，并将平衡的全光谱光引入室内。
And if it's as simple as bringing some plants, you know, putting plants around a building, keeping the tinting off of windows, maybe I could see where that might cause some issues with regulating temperature and the downstream costs of that, et cetera.
如果就像带来一些植物一样简单，你知道，在建筑物周围放置植物，保持窗户不着色，也许我可以看到这可能会在调节温度和下游成本等方面引起一些问题。
But, having some long-wavelength emitting sources, maybe it's an actual long-wavelength, AKA red light, somewhere near a plant or a series of plants in a...
但是，如果有一些长波长发射源，也许它是真正的长波长，又名红光，位于植物或一系列植物附近的某处......
Glen Jeffery: Hmm.
格伦·杰弗里：嗯。
Hmm.
唔。
Andrew Huberman: Because not everyone can change their internal environment, their apartments, et cetera.
Andrew Huberman：因为不是每个人都可以改变他们的内部环境，他们的公寓等等。
Glen Jeffery: No, no.
格伦·杰弗里：不，不。
Andrew Huberman: I must say, in the last, probably, 18 months, I've made some pretty serious efforts to get in front of a long-wavelength emitting device.
Andrew Huberman：我必须说，在过去（可能是 18 个月）里，我做出了一些相当认真的努力，以接近长波长发射设备。
My own personal experience is that by doing that...
我个人的经验是，这样做......
And I do do it early in the day, I do not use protective eye covering because I'm comfortable with those wavelengths.
我会在一天的早些时候这样做，我不使用防护眼罩，因为我对这些波长感到舒服。
I sometimes will close my eyes for portions of it.
有时我会闭上眼睛看其中的一部分。
But I must say, and I don't think this is a placebo, but who knows, I find that it produces a tangible increase in energy and feelings of well-being, for a substantial amount of time afterwards for me.
但我必须说，我不认为这是安慰剂，但谁知道呢，我发现它在之后的相当长的一段时间内为我带来了能量和幸福感的切实增加。
But that's on a backdrop of already doing a number of other things, including trying to get outside for brief 20-minute or even 10-minute walks, grab a little gulp of sunshine, as I call it.
但这是在我们已经做了许多其他事情的背景下进行的，包括尝试到外面短暂散步 20 分钟甚至 10 分钟，享受一点阳光，正如我所说的那样。
It's not really a gulp.
这并不是真正的吞咽。
I think that the more we can get outdoors, great, provided we don't sunburn.
我认为，只要我们不被晒伤，我们就能越多地到户外活动，那就太好了。
Glen Jeffery: Mm-hmm.
格伦·杰弗里：嗯嗯。
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: But we need to start bringing certain elements of the outdoors into classrooms and hospitals.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：但我们需要开始将户外的某些元素带入教室和医院。
I mean, there's this phenomenon, ICU psychosis, where people don't have access to sunlight and circadian rhythm information.
我的意思是，有一种现象，即 ICU 精神病，人们无法获得阳光和昼夜节律信息。
They're being woken up in the middle of the night, and they're not psychotic, and they develop a transient psychosis that resolves when they leave the hospital.
他们在半夜被叫醒，他们并没有精神病，他们会出现短暂的精神病，出院后就会消失。
Glen Jeffery: Hmm.
格伦·杰弗里：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I mean, I feel, as you can probably tell, very-very strongly that lighting is so critical for immediate and long-term health.
Andrew Huberman：我的意思是，正如你可能会说的那样，我非常非常强烈地感觉到照明对于当前和长期的健康至关重要。
And I agree with you.
我同意你的观点。
I think we, not to sound catastrophic, but if we don't, no pun intended, short-circuit this excessive short-wavelength light issue, that we are going to see more and more metabolic dysfunction, more and more visual dysfunction, myopia.
我认为，这不是听起来灾难性的，但如果我们不这样做，没有双关语的意思，短路这种过度的短波长光问题，我们将看到越来越多的代谢功能障碍，越来越多的视觉功能障碍，近视。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: And for people with neurodegeneration or a genetic bias toward it, or you know, maybe the occupational hazard-related bias toward it, that if they don't get the protective effects of long-wavelength light, I think it's going to be really serious.
安德鲁·休伯曼：对于患有神经退行性疾病或对其有遗传偏见的人来说，或者你知道，也许是与职业危害相关的偏见，如果他们没有得到长波长光的保护作用，我认为情况会非常严重。
Glen Jeffery: Hmm.
格伦·杰弗里：嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
I completely agree with you.
我完全同意你的观点。
And we weren't sticking our head above the parapet three or four years ago, but we are now.
三四年前我们还没有把头伸出护墙之上，但现在我们做到了。
We think this is a significant public health problem.
我们认为这是一个重大的公共卫生问题。
We've been approached by a few critical care units saying, "What about changing our lighting?" I mean, the architects have taught me one or two things.
一些重症监护室联系我们说：“改变我们的照明怎么样？”我的意思是，建筑师们教会了我一两件事。
So, they say cost to me, because they're commercial.
所以，他们说我要花钱，因为它们是商业性的。
So, they say things like "Okay, well, if that gets your patient out of intensive care unit one day earlier, what does it save you?"
所以，他们会说“好吧，如果这能让你的病人提前一天离开重症监护室，这能拯救你什么？”
Andrew Huberman: Mm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Glen Jeffery: With one group of architects, we've talked about changing the lighting in a building that's having major refurbs on it.
Glen Jeffery：我们与一组建筑师讨论了改变一栋正在进行重大翻新的建筑物的照明的问题。
And oh, you know, the owners are going, "Oh, we're doing...
哦，你知道，业主们会说，“哦，我们正在做......
Do we need this?" Et cetera, et cetera.
我们需要这个吗？”等等等等。
And the architect turned around and said, "How many days did you lose to sickness in this building last year?" And, of course, they didn't know the answer, but it put them, really, on the spot.
建筑师转身问道：“去年你在这栋楼里因病缺了多少天？”当然，他们不知道答案，但这确实让他们陷入了困境。
But the architect said, "You should look at the larger economic model here, and that includes the health, perceived health of the individual.
但建筑师说：“你应该在这里关注更大的经济模型，其中包括个人的健康、感知健康。
But it may have beneficial effects for you in terms of reducing costs."
但它可能会对您降低成本产生有益的影响。”
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: I think they put their finger on that, really, quite sharply.
格伦·杰弗里：我认为他们确实非常尖锐地指出了这一点。
Andrew Huberman: Hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
For people that are on a real budget, and like most of us, have to rely on LED lighting, hopefully they're dimming their lighting a bit in the evening, not relying so much on overhead lighting, trying to get their circadian rhythm correct.
对于那些有实际预算的人来说，就像我们大多数人一样，必须依赖 LED 照明，希望他们在晚上把照明调暗一点，而不是过分依赖头顶照明，试图让他们的昼夜节律正确。
Glen Jeffery: Hmm.
格伦·杰弗里：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And in the daytime, getting outside, get their sunlight in the morning, et cetera.
Andrew Huberman：白天，到外面去，在早上接受阳光，等等。
And they want to get some more balanced or long-wavelength light, and they want to do it in the least expensive way possible.
他们希望获得一些更平衡或长波长的光，并且希望以尽可能最便宜的方式做到这一点。
Even though candlelight is not very bright, I would recommend getting an odorless, because we're learning all this stuff about the odors from candles.
尽管烛光不是很亮，我还是建议使用无味的，因为我们正在学习有关蜡烛气味的所有信息。
A, you know, an odorless, like a pure beeswax candle, provided it's safe, they can put at their desk in the evening or maybe even on their nightstand, they can have a candle while they read.
答，你知道，无味的，像纯蜂蜡蜡烛，只要它是安全的，他们可以在晚上放在办公桌上，甚至可以放在床头柜上，他们可以在阅读时拿着蜡烛。
Just getting a bit more long-wavelength light.
只是获得更多的长波长光。
As you say, supplementing with long-wavelength light here and there.
正如你所说，到处补充长波长光。
Maybe, while even they're on their phone or their tablet before sleep.
也许，即使他们在睡觉前使用手机或平板电脑。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I feel like these things ought to make a meaningful difference over time.
Andrew Huberman：我觉得随着时间的推移，这些事情应该会产生有意义的变化。
They're very low-cost.
它们的成本非常低。
Provided you don't burn your structure down, they're safe.
只要你不烧毁你的建筑，它们就是安全的。
And even better, it sounds like it would be to get a hold of an incandescent or a halogen bulb.
更好的是，听起来就像是找到一个白炽灯或卤素灯泡。
But I feel like this is something that almost anyone could do, and it seems very, very healthy to do.
但我觉得这是几乎任何人都可以做的事情，而且看起来非常非常健康。
Glen Jeffery: Well, I am 100% behind the idea that, firstly, this can change public health; and secondly, that it should be done at almost zero-cost, because that is a potential.
格伦·杰弗里 (Glen Jeffery)：嗯，我 100% 支持这样的想法：首先，这可以改变公共健康；其次，它应该以几乎零成本的方式完成，因为这是一种潜力。
Okay?
好的？
So, if you look at, say, a number of my colleagues, and this includes myself, in the kitchen, I have got a halogen lamp.
所以，如果你看看我的一些同事，包括我自己，在厨房里，我有一盏卤素灯。
So, when I get up in the morning and, you know, you're spending that 45 minutes that really should be 10 minutes, but you're faffing around, doing stuff, there's a halogen lamp there, on at the right time.
所以，当我早上起床时，你知道，你花了 45 分钟，实际上应该是 10 分钟，但你在闲逛，做一些事情，那里有一盏卤素灯，在正确的时间亮起。
It's not desperately bright, but it's there at a critical time during the day.
它并不是非常明亮，但在白天的关键时刻它就会出现。
Andrew Huberman: What color does it appear?
安德鲁·休伯曼：它呈现什么颜色？
Glen Jeffery: Ordinary white light.
Glen Jeffery：普通白光。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
But it's full spectrum?
但它是全频谱的吗？
Glen Jeffery: But it's full...
格伦·杰弗里：但已经满了……
A proper halogen lamp is just a certain kind of incandescent that has potential, longer life, in terms of its shelf life, because there are reasons you should keep it, reasons you should have it.
合适的卤素灯只是某种白炽灯，就其保质期而言，它具有潜力，使用寿命更长，因为有理由您应该保留它，有理由您应该拥有它。
Andrew Huberman: Hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: And just do that.
格伦·杰弗里：那就这么做吧。
Andrew Huberman: Great.
安德鲁·休伯曼： 太好了。
Glen Jeffery: A halogen lamp, and particularly if you can afford to dim it, it'll last almost forever.
Glen Jeffery：卤素灯，特别是如果你有能力调暗它，它几乎可以永远使用。
Because if you just turn the power down, which increases the amount of infrared light, the bulb will last for ages.
因为如果你只是关掉电源，这会增加红外光的数量，灯泡将持续很长时间。
Absolutely ages.
绝对有年龄。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
And you're using this in the morning, you could also use it in the evening.
您早上使用它，晚上也可以使用它。
And if you dim it down, it's not going to alter your melatonin level, circadian rhythm much.
如果你把它调暗，它不会改变你的褪黑激素水平和昼夜节律。
Glen Jeffery: No. And if you dim it down, your energy bills should not go up.
格伦·杰弗里：不。如果你把它调暗，你的能源费用应该不会增加。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: So I believe, profoundly, that we can affect public health, and we should affect public health at a highly economic way.
格伦·杰弗里：所以我坚信，我们可以影响公共健康，而且我们应该以高度经济的方式影响公共健康。
So we are working hard on what's the minimum?
那么我们正在努力做到最低限度是什么？
What's the minimum?
最低限度是多少？
What's the minimum?
最低限度是多少？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: In critical care units, a big one that we really are trying to dent is nursing homes, where these people spend all their time in beds, or they're away from windows.
格伦·杰弗里（Glen Jeffery）：在重症监护病房中，我们真正想要削弱的一个重要因素是疗养院，在那里，这些人所有的时间都躺在床上，或者远离窗户。
Can we wheel them all in for breakfast and actually have a heat source, an incandescent heat source, to provide incandescent light, but at the same time use that heat?
我们能否将它们全部推入早餐，并且实际上有一个热源，一个白炽热源，来提供白炽光，但同时使用该热量？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: So the architects used to say, "Well, if you want me to change all these lighting, what am I going to do with all this excess heat coming off ceiling lamps?" Well, they've turned around now, they're saying, "We'll put them lower down and maybe we'll use the heat circulating in the room." There's lots of imaginative ways around this.
格伦·杰弗里：所以建筑师们常常说，“好吧，如果你想让我改变所有这些照明，我该如何处理吸顶灯发出的多余热量呢？”好吧，他们现在转过身来，他们说：“我们会把它们放低一点，也许我们会利用房间里循环的热量。”有很多富有想象力的方法可以解决这个问题。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Glen Jeffery: There's 50 PhDs in this, with some really simple winner experiments.
Glen Jeffery：这方面有 50 名博士，其中有一些非常简单的获胜者实验。
Andrew Huberman: It's great.
安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。
I mean, I'd like everyone to think about their indoor lighting environment, how much sunlight exposure, and short-wavelength-shifted LED exposure they're getting during the day.
我的意思是，我希望每个人都考虑一下他们的室内照明环境、白天的阳光照射量以及短波长移动 LED 照射量。
Not because I'm really into extreme biohacking.
并不是因为我真的很热衷于极端的生物黑客。
I'm actually not.
我其实不是。
I just think that whatever we're missing from the out-of-doors that we need and is healthy for our mitochondria, which clearly involves long-wavelength light; your work has demonstrated that beautifully, and the work of others, of course.
我只是认为，无论我们在户外缺少什么，我们都需要并且对我们的线粒体有益，这显然涉及长波长光；你的工作已经完美地证明了这一点，当然还有其他人的工作。
Glen Jeffery: Hmm.
格伦·杰弗里：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: You're always so good at attribution, so I want to acknowledge you for that by doing it as well.
Andrew Huberman：你总是很擅长归因，所以我也想通过这样做来感谢你。
I think people should do it.
我认为人们应该这样做。
And if it's an incandescent bulb, or a halogen, or candlelight, it seems like it would make a meaningful difference.
如果它是白炽灯泡、卤素灯或烛光，似乎会产生有意义的变化。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Speaking of meaningful differences, before we part ways here, I would love to hear a story that you were starting to tell me before we recorded, about a child with a mitochondrial disease.
Andrew Huberman：说到有意义的差异，在我们分开之前，我很想听听您在我们录制之前开始告诉我的一个故事，关于一个患有线粒体疾病的孩子。
And how some of this stuff about light and mitochondria was actually useful in that context.
以及一些关于光和线粒体的东西在这种情况下实际上是有用的。
Glen Jeffery: Yeah.
格伦·杰弗里：是的。
So, we're doing clinical trials, and I'm quite optimistic about some of them.
所以，我们正在进行临床试验，我对其中的一些试验非常乐观。
But there is a specific group of diseases called mitochondrial diseases, where the genetic code, because mitochondria have got their own DNA, the genetic code for making ATP gets disrupted.
但有一类特定的疾病称为线粒体疾病，其中遗传密码，因为线粒体有自己的 DNA，所以制造 ATP 的遗传密码被破坏。
And that can be mild, or it can be very severe.
这可能是轻微的，也可能是非常严重的。
Some of these children do not make it beyond 25.
其中一些孩子活不过 25 岁。
Typical reasons are heart failure, et cetera.
典型的原因是心力衰竭等。
Some of them are very bed-bound and crippled by the disease.
他们中的一些人因这种疾病而卧床不起并致残。
Others manage to walk around and function to a first approximation.
其他人则设法四处走动并达到初步近似的功能。
And I started to get emails from people who said, "You were showing red light, you're using the word red light and mitochondria, improving mitochondria.
我开始收到人们发来的电子邮件，他们说：“你显示了红光，你使用了红光和线粒体这个词，改善了线粒体。
My child's got mitochondrial disease." And I said, "I don't have ethics for that.
我的孩子患有线粒体疾病。”我说：“我对此没有道德规范。
I can't pass any real comment.
我无法发表任何真实的评论。
If you chose to do something, then I suggest you might consider doing this." And the first child that did do that had a, I would say, gut-wrenching improvement.
如果你选择做某事，那么我建议你可以考虑这样做。”我想说，第一个做到这一点的孩子取得了令人痛苦的进步。
We were devastated by its effect.
我们对其影响感到震惊。
Andrew Huberman: Positive effect?
安德鲁·休伯曼：积极影响？
Glen Jeffery: Positive.
格伦·杰弗里：积极。
Andrew Huberman: Over here, when we say gut-wrenching, we mean it was negative.
安德鲁·休伯曼：在这里，当我们说令人心痛时，我们的意思是它是负面的。
Glen Jeffery: Oh, no, no.
格伦·杰弗里：哦，不，不。
Andrew Huberman: You're saying, "eye-watering" for you guys is negative, "gut-wrenching is positive.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你是说，对你们来说“令人流泪”是消极的，“令人痛苦的是积极的”。
Over here, "eye-watering" is positive, and "gut..." I'm just teasing.
在这里，“令人流泪”是积极的，而“胆量......”我只是在开玩笑。
Glen Jeffery: Okay.
格伦·杰弗里：好的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Glen Jeffery: So, we were looking at simple metrics, which is, how much they could open their eyelids.
格伦·杰弗里：所以，我们正在研究简单的指标，即他们可以睁开眼皮的程度。
It's called ptosis, right?
这就是所谓的上睑下垂，对吗？
Couldn't open their eyes.
他们无法睁开眼睛。
This child, the first child within a month or so, had semi-mobility.
这个孩子是一个月左右的第一个孩子，有半活动能力。
Andrew Huberman: Amazing.
安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。
Glen Jeffery: I got a video of her walking to school.
格伦·杰弗里：我有一段她步行去学校的视频。
Andrew Huberman: Amazing.
安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。
Glen Jeffery: I went to the bathroom and sobbed.
格伦·杰弗里：我去了卫生间哭了。
"Done something that's really helped someone." Then we had another couple of kids, and they all had small improvements.
“做了一些真正帮助别人的事情。”然后我们又生了几个孩子，他们都有了小小的进步。
We got a clinical trial for it.
我们对此进行了临床试验。
And our biggest problem is, we couldn't get enough kids into the study.
我们最大的问题是，我们无法让足够多的孩子参与这项研究。
The density of kids with mitochondrial disease in the UK, we got funding for it, was just too low.
我们为此提供了资金，英国患有线粒体疾病的儿童的密度太低了。
So one of the things I've got to do, sadly, when I go back, certainly before Christmas, I've got to wrap that up and hand the money back.
因此，可悲的是，当我回去时，当然是在圣诞节之前，我必须做的一件事是，我必须把它包起来并把钱还给我。
I'm just going to say, "Just could not get the kids." And some of them, as I told you, when that disease digs in badly, we can't do anything about it.
我只想说：“就是找不到孩子。”其中一些，正如我告诉过你的，当这种疾病严重蔓延时，我们对此无能为力。
Some of those kids were just so sick.
其中一些孩子病得很厉害。
You know, it was a major effort to get them to the hospital to assess them.
要知道，让他们去医院进行评估是一项巨大的努力。
But let's take a defocused image on this.
但让我们看一张散焦图像。
In theoretically, red light should help kids with mitochondrial disease.
从理论上讲，红光应该可以帮助患有线粒体疾病的孩子。
It will do absolutely no harm whatsoever.
它绝对不会造成任何伤害。
And I generally say, if all of this is a pile of rubbish, A: I'll look an idiot, but I don't think I am going to look an idiot.
我通常会说，如果所有这些都是一堆垃圾，答：我会看起来像个白痴，但我不认为我会看起来像个白痴。
B: You will not have wasted money on something that's just completely worthless.
B：你不会把钱浪费在完全没有价值的东西上。
So, I'm talking to people now, and I'm saying, "Okay, why don't you think about changing the light bulbs in the home to just get that extra bit of red light to help you through?" We've got a trial for a retinal disease coming out shortly.
所以，我现在和人们交谈，我说，“好吧，你为什么不考虑更换家里的灯泡，以获得额外的红光来帮助你度过难关呢？”我们即将进行一项针对视网膜疾病的试验。
I don't know the results.
我不知道结果。
They won't show me, probably because they know I'll talk.
他们不会给我看，可能是因为他们知道我会说话。
And it's for a disease called retinitis pigmentosa.
它是针对一种叫做视网膜色素变性的疾病。
Andrew Huberman: Very common.
安德鲁·休伯曼：很常见。
Glen Jeffery: And we've had a fantastic response from a donor in the States, who has given us some money.
格伦·杰弗里：我们从美国的一位捐助者那里得到了很好的回应，他给了我们一些钱。
And the next project in that line is changing the light bulbs for patients with retinitis pigmentosa.
该系列的下一个项目是为色素性视网膜炎患者更换灯泡。
Now, I'm partly working at Moorfields Eye Hospital.
现在，我在莫菲尔德眼科医院部分工作。
Supposedly, it's got the biggest ophthalmic outpatient population in the world.
据称，这里拥有世界上最多的眼科门诊患者。
And we do have enough people with retinitis pigmentosa.
我们确实有足够多的视网膜色素变性患者。
So I'm going to kick that off towards the end of this year.
所以我将在今年年底启动这一计划。
Everything's pointing towards light bulbs.
一切都指向灯泡。
Everything's pointing towards...
一切都指向...
And I would, at this point, say, and I'm not saying it for the first time here, I've shouted about it for the last six months, Moorfields Eye Hospital is building a brand-new hospital.
在这一点上，我想说，我不是第一次在这里这么说，过去六个月我一直在大声疾呼，莫菲尔德眼科医院正在建设一家全新的医院。
Looks great.
看起来很棒。
It's all in glass.
一切都在玻璃里。
It blocks infrared.
它阻挡红外线。
And it's going to have the world's worst LEDs put in it.
而且它将安装世界上最差的 LED。
You know?
你知道吗？
We need to learn, but it's apparent to me, we're going to have to learn slowly.
我们需要学习，但对我来说很明显，我们必须慢慢学习。
Andrew Huberman: As with so many things with human health.
安德鲁·休伯曼：就像许多与人类健康有关的事情一样。
But listen, Glen, I want to thank you on many levels.
但是听着，格伦，我想在很多层面上感谢你。
First of all, for taking the long trek over here from the UK.
首先，从英国长途跋涉来到这里。
We have some sunlight to offer you.
我们可以为您提供一些阳光。
Glen Jeffery: Oh, let's look.
格伦·杰弗里：哦，让我们看看。
I'm on the Huberman podcast.
我在休伯曼播客上。
That's a big pro, plus in life.
这是一个很大的优点，而且在生活中也是如此。
Andrew Huberman: All right, well.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好吧，好吧。
Glen Jeffery: I got out of London, which was gray, grim, cold, and wet.
格伦·杰弗里：我离开了伦敦，那里灰暗、阴暗、寒冷、潮湿。
You didn't have to talk too hard to get me over here.
你不用费很大力气就能把我带到这里。
Andrew Huberman: All right.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
Well, we're happy to have you here in the studio sharing all this knowledge.
好吧，我们很高兴您能来到工作室分享所有这些知识。
And also, I really want to thank you for shifting your focus of research.
而且，我真的要感谢你转移了你的研究重点。
We won't waste people's time by talking about the various things that you and I worked on for years.
我们不会浪费人们的时间来谈论你和我多年来所做的各种事情。
We were in slightly overlapping fields, and then, different fields, and we would overlap again.
我们处于稍微重叠的领域，然后，不同的领域，我们会再次重叠。
But we go way back, and you've always done such meticulous and really beautiful work.
但我们可以追溯到很久以前，你的工作总是那么细致、非常漂亮。
But I think you and I have shared with one another, and I'll share now, that, at some point, one reaches a juncture in their career, where you kind of go, "How can I make the most positive impact?"
但我想你和我已经分享过，现在我要分享的是，在某个时刻，一个人会到达职业生涯的关键时刻，你会问：“我怎样才能产生最积极的影响？”
Glen Jeffery: Hmm.
格伦·杰弗里：嗯。
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And a few years back, when I started seeing the studies that you were doing on bees and mice, and then, humans, evaluating how different wavelengths of light can impact visual function, mitochondrial health, and the number of really terrific collaborators that you've brought in around that.
Andrew Huberman：几年前，当我开始看到您对蜜蜂和小鼠以及人类进行的研究时，评估了不同波长的光如何影响视觉功能、线粒体健康以及您为此带来的真正出色的合作者的数量。
And again, I love the way that you give such ready attribution to the other people in the field, and also that you are willing to be vocal about what people can do.
再说一次，我喜欢你对这个领域的其他人给予如此充分的认可，而且你愿意直言不讳地谈论人们可以做什么。
Scientists are often afraid of that.
科学家们常常对此感到害怕。
You give people meaningful suggestions about how they can, perhaps, improve their health, their vision, et cetera, using low-cost or even, in some cases, cost-saving technology.
你为人们提供了有意义的建议，告诉他们如何使用低成本甚至在某些情况下节省成本的技术来改善他们的健康、视力等等。
I could go on and on here, but I really want to thank you for sharing all this knowledge, for doing the work you do, and for being a voice for public health, as it relates to indoor and outdoor lighting.
我可以在这里继续说下去，但我真的想感谢您分享所有这些知识，感谢您所做的工作，并为公共健康发声，因为它与室内和室外照明有关。
And I really look forward to seeing what you do next, and it's a real pleasure for me to sit down with a long-term colleague.
我真的很期待看到你下一步做什么，我很高兴能与一位长期同事坐下来。
So thank you.
所以谢谢你。
Glen Jeffery: I thoroughly enjoyed it.
格伦·杰弗里：我非常喜欢它。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Glen Jeffery: Thank you.
格伦·杰弗里：谢谢。
Andrew Huberman: Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Glen Jeffery.
Andrew Huberman：感谢您参加今天与 Glen Jeffery 博士的讨论。
To learn more about his work and to find links to the various resources we discussed, please see the show note captions.
要了解有关他的工作的更多信息并查找我们讨论的各种资源的链接，请参阅节目注释标题。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the "Follow" button on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的“关注”按钮来关注播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。
And you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.
您现在可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast, or guests, or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问或对播客、嘉宾或您希望我为 Huberman Lab 播客考虑的主题有意见，请将这些内容放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这本书是我花了五年多时间编写的，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验。
And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise, to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
它涵盖了从睡眠到锻炼、压力控制、与注意力和动机相关的所有协议，当然，我还为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There, you can find links to various vendors.
在那里，您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." And if you're not already following me on social media, I am hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 hubermanlab。
So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。
Again, it's hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
再说一遍，所有社交媒体平台上都是 hubermanlab。
And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols, in the form of one-to-three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及我们所说的协议，以一到三页的 PDF 形式，涵盖了从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.
我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。
All of that is available, completely zero cost.
所有这些都是可用的，完全零成本。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter, and enter your email.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的“菜单”选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件即可。
And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Glen Jeffery.
再次感谢您参加今天与 Glen Jeffery 博士的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。