Peptides: The Science, Uses & Safety | Dr. Abud Bakri
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
People are now stacking their GLP-1 as their insulin sensitivity tool, their growth hormone or their GHRH-
人们现在将 GLP-1 作为胰岛素敏感性工具、生长激素或 GHRH-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
and their androgen modulation therapies as this trinity stack-
以及他们的雄激素调节疗法作为这三位一体的叠加-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Trinity stack
三位一体堆栈
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
to get very fit, very healthy quickly.
快速变得非常健康。
So a lot of these transformations you see in CEOs and celebrities and stuff is using a combination of those three things, your TRT plus terzepatide or retatrutide, whatever it may be, and then using a growth hormone modulation if you can afford growth hormone or tesamorelin, ipamorelin.
因此，你在首席执行官和名人身上看到的很多转变都是使用这三种药物的组合，你的 TRT 加特泽帕肽或瑞他鲁肽，无论它是什么，然后使用生长激素调节剂（如果你能负担得起生长激素或替沙莫林、伊帕莫林）。
And you're seeing people lose a lot of fat, gain a lot of muscle in short amounts of time.
你会看到人们在短时间内减掉大量脂肪，增加大量肌肉。
Is that healthy?
这样健康吗？
We'll find out, but that is the celebrity protocol.
我们会知道的，但这就是名人协议。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到胡伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Dr. Abood Bakri, an internal medicine physician who is also extremely knowledgeable on the science and use of peptides.
今天我的嘉宾是 Abood Bakri 博士，他是一位内科医生，对肽的科学和使用也非常了解。
When I say peptides, I mean both FDA-approved peptides, such as the GLP agonists.
当我说肽时，我指的是 FDA 批准的肽，例如 GLP 激动剂。
You probably know these as things like Ozempic, Mounjaro, and retatrutide, as well as peptides such as Body Protection Compound 157, or BPC 157, which as you'll learn today, has a very long history of being used in humans for gut health and tissue repair, and many interesting studies in animals supporting its potential use in humans, but a minimum of formal studies in humans, meaning one.
您可能知道这些物质，例如 Ozempic、Mounjaro 和瑞他鲁肽，以及诸如身体保护化合物 157 或 BPC 157 之类的肽，正如您今天将了解到的，它在人类中用于肠道健康和组织修复有着悠久的历史，并且许多有趣的动物研究支持其在人类中的潜在用途，但在人类中的正式研究最少，仅此而已。
We discuss BPC 157, what it does and how, as well as things like growth hormone secretagogues, like tesamorelin, MK-677, and others.
我们讨论 BPC 157、它的作用和作用，以及生长激素促分泌剂（如 tesamorelin、MK-677 等）。
And we talk about things like GHK copper, which nowadays many people are using to promote collagen synthesis and repair for aesthetic reasons, like improving skin, hair, and so on.
我们谈论像 GHK 铜这样的东西，现在很多人出于美观原因使用它来促进胶原蛋白合成和修复，例如改善皮肤、头发等。
We also talk about peptides that have been studied for the purpose of DNA repair and longevity, like epithalin and pinealin, which also have been touted to improve REM sleep and for improving cognitive function.
我们还讨论了为了 DNA 修复和长寿而研究的肽，例如上皮素和松果素，它们也被吹捧为可以改善快速眼动睡眠和改善认知功能。
You'll also learn what is known and what is not known about these peptides, both in terms of function and safety.
您还将了解这些肽在功能和安全性方面的已知信息和未知信息。
During today's episode, you will come to appreciate that Dr. Bakri has truly encyclopedic knowledge about these peptides.
在今天的节目中，您将认识到 Bakri 博士对这些肽拥有真正百科全书式的知识。
He is also formally trained as a physician, and as a consequence, you will learn how to think about peptides based on whether or not they have known receptors or not, that turns out to be very important, and what their real safety profiles are, as well as what particular concerns you ought to have if you are considering using peptides of any kind.
他还接受过正式的医生培训，因此，您将学习如何根据肽是否具有已知的受体来思考肽，这非常重要，以及它们真正的安全性是什么，以及如果您正在考虑使用任何类型的肽，您应该特别关注哪些问题。
As a formally trained board-certified physician, he comes at this topic through the lens of a physician, but also somebody who is very interested in the current status and future of peptide medicine.
作为一名经过正式培训并获得委员会认证的医生，他从医生的角度来探讨这个话题，同时他也是对肽医学的现状和未来非常感兴趣的人。
Today's discussion, thanks to Dr. Bakri, is a true master class on peptides.
感谢 Bakri 博士，今天的讨论是一堂真正的肽大师课。
By the end of today's discussion, I promise you, again, thanks to him, that you will be among the most informed, doctor or otherwise, about peptides from the GLPs to BPC 157, and all the others that I mentioned, including some that I didn't mention here in the introduction.
在今天的讨论结束时，我再次向您保证，感谢他，您将成为最了解从 GLP 到 BPC 157 的肽以及我提到的所有其他肽（包括一些我在介绍中未提及的肽）的人，无论是医生还是其他人。
So it is a real gift and honor to have this knowledge presented to all of us.
因此，将这些知识呈现给我们所有人是一份真正的礼物和荣幸。
So buckle up.
所以系好安全带。
You're about to learn a lot about peptides.
您将了解很多有关肽的知识。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.
为了与这个主题保持一致，今天的节目确实有赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Abood Bakri.
现在我与 Abood Bakri 博士进行讨论。
Dr. Abood Bakri, welcome.
阿布德·巴克里博士，欢迎光临。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Good to be here.
很高兴来到这里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Peptides.
肽。
Huge topic and huge category of biology and medicine.
生物学和医学的巨大主题和巨大类别。
So we should start off by breaking this into categories-
所以我们应该首先将其分为几类：
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
so that people can wrap their minds around it, because that word peptides has come to mean stuff people buy and take and maybe should or shouldn't buy and take, but- ...
这样人们就可以集中注意力，因为肽这个词已经开始意味着人们购买和服用的东西，也许应该或不应该购买和服用，但是-...
there's a lot of important and quite simple biology to understand before anyone should even be thinking about any of that.
在任何人都应该考虑这些之前，有很多重要且相当简单的生物学需要理解。
So if I just push the word peptides towards you, how do you carve that up in terms of thinking about it as an MD, as a clinician, and maybe also put yourself into the mind of a interested, let's call it a peptide curious person- ...
因此，如果我只是将“肽”这个词推向您，作为一名医学博士、一名临床医生，您如何看待它，也许还把自己置于一个感兴趣的人的头脑中，让我们称其为对肽感兴趣的人——……
out there?
在那里？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
So scientifically, I would say it's one of the languages of the human body.
所以从科学上来说，我会说它是人体的语言之一。
So the body likes these different languages to communicate between cells, going from DNA to RNA to proteins, which can be broken down into polypeptides and peptides.
因此，身体喜欢这些不同的语言在细胞之间进行交流，从 DNA 到 RNA 再到蛋白质，这些语言可以分解为多肽和肽。
And peptides are one of these languages.
肽就是这些语言之一。
Steroid hormones are another language, and then peptides can be broken down further into subcategories, whether or not they have receptors or they have no receptor.
类固醇激素是另一种语言，然后肽可以进一步细分为子类别，无论它们是否具有受体或没有受体。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
And that kind of changes the clinical effects we'll see, like the GLP-1s, which have a very strong clinical effect, compared to these obscure peptides like BPC 157, TB-500, TB-4, that don't have a clear target.
这会改变我们将看到的临床效果，例如 GLP-1，与 BPC 157、TB-500、TB-4 等没有明确靶标的不起眼的肽相比，它具有非常强的临床效果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They have receptors, but they just have many of them, or they don't even have receptors?
它们有受体，但只是有很多，或者甚至没有受体？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
We don't have a receptor identified for BPC 157 or TB-4.
我们尚未鉴定出 BPC 157 或 TB-4 的受体。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just stopping you right there.
就在那里阻止你。
There's a very interesting distinction.
有一个非常有趣的区别。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't think anyone else has described peptides this way.
我认为没有其他人以这种方式描述过肽。
Let's take BPC 157-
让我们以 BPC 157 为例——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for the moment.
暂时。
We're going to talk a lot about it today.
今天我们要谈论很多。
If it doesn't have a receptor, what are some ways that it could impact cells and organs-
如果它没有受体，它会通过哪些方式影响细胞和器官-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and so forth?
等等？
Or is it that there are receptors, we just don't know what they are?
或者是存在受体，只是我们不知道它们是什么？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
It could be that-
可能是这样——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
the latter, that maybe the receptor is still elusive, or it could be that it's modifying certain proteins that already exist or linking different proteins together in a more favorable fashion for-
后者，也许受体仍然难以捉摸，或者它可能正在修改已经存在的某些蛋白质，或者以更有利的方式将不同的蛋白质连接在一起——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm
嗯
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
gene transcription.
基因转录。
The Russian peptides are all epigenetic modifiers that they bind to the groove of the DNA in certain spots that either open up or close the chromatin to certain areas of genetic expression, and they've modeled this out.
俄罗斯肽都是表观遗传修饰剂，它们与 DNA 凹槽中的某些点结合，从而打开或关闭染色质与某些基因表达区域的关系，他们已经对此进行了建模。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like a steroid hormone?
比如类固醇激素？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
So steroid hormones bind to a, like the androgen receptor binds DHT or testosterone, goes into the nucleus, turns on all the androgenic genes.
因此，类固醇激素与雄激素受体结合，就像雄激素受体与 DHT 或睾酮结合一样，进入细胞核，打开所有雄激素基因。
Like this-
像这样——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Puberty is a good example of that.
青春期就是一个很好的例子。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
So like pinealin that we've talked about, shuttles heat shock proteins with androgen receptors
就像我们讨论过的松果素一样，热休克蛋白与雄激素受体一起运输
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it.
明白了。
So if I just pause us for a second, we should think about this word peptides in two major categories at least.
因此，如果我暂停一下，我们应该至少在两个主要类别中考虑这个词“肽”。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One is, has known receptors.
一是具有已知的受体。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Plural, like the GLPs.
复数，如 GLP。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The other category would be, does not have known receptors, might have receptors, but can definitely impact biology-
另一类是，没有已知的受体，可能有受体，但肯定会影响生物学——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in interesting ways, or so say the animal data.
以有趣的方式，或者说动物数据。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
A lot of animal data.
很多动物数据。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All right.
好吧。
I know a lot of people are interested in GLPs and I want to go there, but because I know most people are probably listening to this foremost because they want to hear about the other stuff- ...
我知道很多人对 GLP 感兴趣，我想去那里，但因为我知道大多数人可能最先听的是这个，因为他们想听其他的东西 - ...
let's start with BPC 157.
让我们从 BPC 157 开始。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What is it?
它是什么？
What do we know about it?
我们对此了解多少？
We'll explore safety and what is your stance on it from the perspective of a consumer and a clinician?
我们将探讨安全性，您从消费者和临床医生的角度对此有何立场？
So first of all, what is BPC 157?
那么首先，什么是BPC 157？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
The best way to look at it is, as humans we've been looking for medicines in plants for thousands of years, and in the last, let's say 150 years, we've been looking for medicines in cells.
最好的看待方式是，作为人类，我们几千年来一直在植物中寻找药物，而在过去，比如说 150 年里，我们一直在细胞中寻找药物。
So animal-derived versus plant-derived medicines is the way to think about it.
因此，动物源性药物与植物源性药物是思考这个问题的方式。
You think about aspirin, you think about metformin, the statins.
你会想到阿司匹林、二甲双胍和他汀类药物。
Those were all discovered in plant tissues.
这些都是在植物组织中发现的。
Statins more so fungi, but you get the point.
他汀类药物更像是真菌，但你明白了。
Now we've been looking into animal tissues to find cures, medicines, treatments.
现在我们一直在研究动物组织来寻找治疗方法、药物和治疗方法。
So a group in Croatia in the '90s looks out for this peptide called BPC, that they eventually named BPC.
因此，20 世纪 90 年代克罗地亚的一个团队开始寻找这种名为 BPC 的肽，他们最终将其命名为 BPC。
It's a 40,000-dalton giant peptide called BPC.
它是一种 40,000 道尔顿的巨型肽，称为 BPC。
BPC 157 is 15 amino acids from that giant peptide.
BPC 157 是来自该巨型肽的 15 个氨基酸。
We don't naturally make BPC 157.
我们自然不会生产 BPC 157。
That's what you'll commonly hear online.
这是您在网上经常听到的。
We make BPC the big protein.
我们使 BPC 成为重要的蛋白质。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Did this group go looking for-
这群人是不是去寻找——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
body protection compound?
身体保护化合物？
For those that aren't familiar, in the laboratory you can take a tissue, grind it up, you can do what's called fractionation, you can start separating basically cells and tissues and liquids according to the size of different proteins.
对于那些不熟悉的人，在实验室中，您可以取出组织，将其磨碎，您可以进行所谓的分级分离，您可以根据不同蛋白质的大小开始基本上分离细胞、组织和液体。
Like different filters will bring, just like certain filters will let sand through or pebbles through or boulders through.
就像不同的过滤器会带来的一样，就像某些过滤器会让沙子、卵石或巨石通过一样。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's kind of what you do, and then you figure out what the sequences are, and then you throw them on cells or put them into animals and you try and figure out what they do.
这就是你所做的，然后你弄清楚序列是什么，然后你把它们扔到细胞上或放入动物体内，然后你尝试弄清楚它们的作用。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Why were they motivated to look for what eventually became BPC?
为什么他们有动力去寻找最终成为 BPC 的东西？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
So Pavlov, the famous scientist that would do the experience on the dogs with the bell and making the dogs salivate, the other work he did was on gastric juices of dogs.
所以巴甫洛夫，这位著名的科学家，在狗身上做了用铃铛让狗流口水的实验，他做的另一项工作就是研究狗的胃液。
What he'd do is he'd put a hole in the dogs' stomachs, he would feed them food and then get the gastric juices and sell that as a medicine.
他要做的就是在狗的胃上打一个洞，喂它们食物，然后获取胃液并将其作为药物出售。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's how he made his money?
他的钱就是这么赚的？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah, that was part of his business.
是的，那是他生意的一部分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So he got a Nobel Prize.
所以他获得了诺贝尔奖。
He was also kind of like, what did he have a call code?
他还问，他的呼叫代码是什么？
It was like enter Pavlov for discount at checkout?
就像结帐时输入巴甫洛夫以获得折扣一样？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing.
太棒了。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
So this is BPC, before BPC 157 exists.
这就是 BPC 157 存在之前的 BPC。
There's probably other peptides and compounds in there, but they found that gastric juices had positive effects on healing, on people that had GERD and these kind of-
那里可能还有其他肽和化合物，但他们发现胃液对患有胃食管反流病和此类疾病的人的康复有积极作用
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wait, so people were taking BPC-
等等，所以人们正在服用 BPC-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the time of Pavlov?
在巴甫洛夫时代？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
They didn't know what BPC was.
他们不知道 BPC 是什么。
They were taking gastric juices from dogs.
他们从狗身上提取胃液。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For what?
为了什么？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
GI distress, GI discomfort, some people would try it for wound healing.
肠胃不适，肠胃不适，有些人会尝试用它来治愈伤口。
There was a big push in this era for finding animal tissues and putting them into humans.
在这个时代，人们大力推动寻找动物组织并将其植入人体。
That science fizzled out.
那门科学最终失败了。
At the same time, there's a scientist, Hans Selye, that's coming up with the stress adaptation theory, and he notices that animals are stressed out, three things happens to them.
与此同时，有一位科学家汉斯·塞利提出了压力适应理论，他注意到动物受到压力时，会发生三件事。
Their adrenals get really big, so they make more cortisol.
他们的肾上腺变得非常大，所以他们会产生更多的皮质醇。
Their gastric lining gets destroyed, and then their thymus gland and their lymphatics shrink down.
他们的胃壁被破坏，然后他们的胸腺和淋巴管萎缩。
And he has this published paper where you have clear adrenal from a stressed animal versus a non-stressed animal, a thymus from an animal that's stressed versus not.
他发表了一篇论文，其中可以清楚地看到压力动物与非压力动物的肾上腺，以及压力动物与非压力动物的胸腺。
So this group is looking and thinking, like, "Hey, Pavlov had this gastric juice.
所以这个小组正在观察和思考，就像，“嘿，巴甫洛夫有胃液。
Hans Selye said that there was damage during stress.
汉斯·塞利（Hans Selye）表示，压力会造成损害。
There must be some kind of cytoprotective or organoprotective compound in the gut." The stomach is a very rich endocrine tissue.
肠道中一定存在某种细胞保护或有机保护化合物。”胃是一个内分泌非常丰富的组织。
It makes ghrelin, all these other hormones.
它会产生生长素释放肽，以及所有其他激素。
So they're like, "There must be something else in the gut juice that protects the gut lining from further damage."
所以他们会说，“肠液中一定还有其他东西可以保护肠壁免受进一步损伤。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Were people drinking the gastric juices of dogs?
人们喝了狗的胃液吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
From Pavlov's-
来自巴甫洛夫的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or were they injecting them?
或者他们注射了它们？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Drinking was mostly what they did.
他们主要做的就是喝酒。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it was supposed to be a medical elixir?
而且应该是灵丹妙药？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Presumably it had many-
想必它有很多——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
many things in it.
里面有很多东西。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Many peptides, not-
许多肽，不-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Dyspepsia and upset stomach and this kind of stuff is what people were thinking about
人们正在考虑消化不良和胃部不适等问题
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do the reports point to the fact that it might have worked independent of what was sold on Dr. Pavlov's-
报告是否指出了这样一个事实：它可能独立于巴甫洛夫博士的销售产品而发挥作用？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
nonexistent website?
不存在的网站？
This was in like the early 1900s, right?
那是在 1900 年代初期，对吧？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then Selye was what, 1930s?
然后 Selye 是什么，20 世纪 30 年代？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
I think so, yeah.
我想是的，是的。
It was about 100 years ago.
那是大约100年前的事了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Someone will correct us if we're wrong.
如果我们错了，就会有人纠正我们。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And this other group in Croatia-
还有克罗地亚的另一个团体——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Was '91.
是91年的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
'91.
'91。
Okay.
好的。
Amazing.
惊人的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Their first paper talks about this, like, "Hey, there must be some kind of compound." They identified the big 40-dalton protein, BPC, and then they were like, "Well, what's causing the actual biological effects?" They identified BPC 157, the 15-amino acid peptide that's causing all these effects.
他们的第一篇论文谈到了这一点，比如，“嘿，一定有某种化合物。”他们鉴定出了 40 道尔顿的大蛋白质 BPC，然后他们想，“那么，是什么导致了实际的生物效应？”他们确定了 BPC 157，即导致所有这些影响的 15 个氨基酸肽。
There's actually more peptides in gastric juices that some other scientists may or may not have already identified.
实际上，胃液中含有更多其他一些科学家可能已经或可能尚未发现的肽。
This field of peptides is going to be very interesting because almost every organ has a signature of peptides.
肽这个领域将会非常有趣，因为几乎每个器官都有肽的特征。
Like if you think back, Dr. Vladimir Ulovich in 1850s, 1880s, finds carnosine and carnitine in muscle of cattle.
回想一下，Vladimir Ulovich 博士在 1850 年代、1880 年代在牛的肌肉中发现了肌肽和肉碱。
So you can think about the first peptides that are found are carnosine and then carnitine as the amino acid that have positive effects on strength training and performance and different effects there.
因此，您可以认为首先发现的肽是肌肽，然后是肉碱，它们是对力量训练和表现产生积极影响的氨基酸，并且具有不同的作用。
But that was the whole idea is like, hey, there's muscle peptides that may have muscle effects, right?
但这整个想法就像，嘿，肌肉肽可能具有肌肉效应，对吗？
Gut peptides might have gut effects.
肠肽可能具有肠道效应。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So this Croatian group isolates this 15-amino acid-
所以这个克罗地亚小组分离出了这个 15 个氨基酸-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
kind of mini segment-
一种迷你段-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of BPC.
的 BPC。
They and others start injecting into mice.
他们和其他人开始给老鼠注射。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Mice.
老鼠。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Inducing injuries to nerve-
诱发神经损伤——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to tendon.
到肌腱。
Maybe describe a few of those effects.
也许可以描述其中一些影响。
I'm familiar with that literature, but I can tell that you are far more familiar with it.
我很熟悉那些文献，但我可以看出你更熟悉它。
So what are some of the impressive effects that they observed that led to where we are today?
那么，他们观察到的一些令人印象深刻的影响导致了我们今天的处境？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So they did all kinds of horrible things to these mice.
所以他们对这些老鼠做了各种可怕的事情。
They would sever tendons and then give them BPC through oral or injectable intraperitoneal administrations, and they'd have faster healing times.
他们会切断肌腱，然后通过口服或腹腔注射给予 BPC，这样他们的愈合时间就会更快。
They would sever ACLs of the mice.
他们会切断小鼠的 ACL。
They would do burn wounds.
他们会烧伤伤口。
So when a patient has a burn wound in the ICU, they end up having crazy gastric ulcers.
因此，当病人在重症监护室里出现烧伤伤口时，他们最终会患上疯狂的胃溃疡。
But if they were able to put BPC on topically for the mouse, they would have no gastric ulcers.
但如果他们能够给小鼠局部涂抹 BPC，小鼠就不会出现胃溃疡。
They name it as this anti-stress compound, is how they look at it.
他们将其命名为“抗压力化合物”，这就是他们的看法。
Now, when they do that Achilles paper on the mice, that's what explodes the bodybuilder interest And leads us to today where we are like, "Oh, MSK injuries must be BPC, tendons and muscle injuries." But the original idea of BPC was to use it as a gastric treatment, not to use it as a musculoskeletal.
现在，当他们在老鼠身上做阿喀琉斯论文时，这激发了健美运动员的兴趣，并导致我们今天这样，“哦，MSK 损伤一定是 BPC、肌腱和肌肉损伤。”但 BPC 的最初想法是将其用作胃治疗，而不是将其用作肌肉骨骼。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Eight Sleep.
我想稍微休息一下，并向我们的赞助商“八睡”表示感谢。
Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep-tracking capacity.
八睡眠公司生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。
One of the best ways to ensure you get a great night's sleep is to make sure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct, and that's because in order to fall asleep and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees.
确保您睡个好觉的最佳方法之一是确保睡眠环境的温度正确，这是因为为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，您的体温实际上必须下降约一到三度。
And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees.
为了醒来时感觉神清气爽、精力充沛，您的体温实际上必须升高约一到三度。
Eight Sleep automatically regulates the temperature of your bed throughout the night according to your unique needs.
八睡眠会根据您的独特需求自动调节整个晚上的床温。
I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for nearly five years now, and it has completely transformed and improved the quality of my sleep.
我已经睡在八睡眠床垫罩上近五年了，它彻底改变并改善了我的睡眠质量。
The latest Eight Sleep model is the Pod 5.
最新的八睡眠型号是 Pod 5。
This is what I'm now sleeping on, and I absolutely love it.
这就是我现在睡觉的地方，我非常喜欢它。
It has so many incredible features.
它有很多令人难以置信的功能。
For instance, the Pod 5 has a feature called Autopilot, which is an AI engine that learns your sleep patterns and then adjusts the temperature of your sleeping environment across different sleep stages.
例如，Pod 5有一个名为Autopilot的功能，这是一个人工智能引擎，可以学习你的睡眠模式，然后在不同的睡眠阶段调整你的睡眠环境温度。
It'll even elevate your head if you're snoring, and it makes other shifts to optimize your sleep.
如果您打鼾，它甚至会抬高您的头部，并进行其他转换以优化您的睡眠。
If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, go to eightsleep.com/huberman to get up to $350 off the new Pod 5.
如果您想尝试八睡眠，请访问八睡眠.com/huberman，新款 Pod 5 最高可享受 350 美元优惠。
Eight Sleep ships to many countries worldwide, including Mexico and the UAE.
八号睡眠船运往世界各地的许多国家，包括墨西哥和阿联酋。
Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $350.
同样，访问八睡眠.com/huberman 最多可节省 350 美元。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Lingo.
今天的节目也是Lingo给我们带来的。
Lingo is an everyday wearable that tracks your glucose 24/7.
Lingo 是一款日常可穿戴设备，可 24/7 跟踪您的血糖。
Glucose drives a lot of key processes that support energy, body composition, and long-term health.
葡萄糖驱动许多支持能量、身体成分和长期健康的关键过程。
When glucose is constantly spiking and crashing, that's where we can start to see metabolic dysfunction, and over time, that can even progress to pre-diabetes.
当血糖不断飙升和崩溃时，我们就会开始看到代谢功能障碍，随着时间的推移，甚至可能发展为糖尿病前期。
Right now, about 115 million adults in the US have pre-diabetes.
目前，美国约有 1.15 亿成年人患有糖尿病前期。
Most don't know it, and a higher percentage of men have it than women do.
大多数人不知道这一点，而且男性患有此病的比例高于女性。
Often, there aren't clear symptoms of pre-diabetes early on, so people don't tend to look into it.
通常，糖尿病前期并没有明显的症状，因此人们往往不会去关注它。
But the fact is that metabolic health is shaping how your body functions every day, whether you feel it or not.
但事实是，无论您是否感觉到，代谢健康正在塑造您身体的日常运作方式。
Tracking your glucose with Lingo can help you see how food, activity, and stress impact your glucose throughout the day.
使用 Lingo 跟踪您的血糖可以帮助您了解食物、活动和压力如何影响您全天的血糖。
I personally have used Lingo, and it's been an invaluable tool for improving my metabolic health.
我个人使用过 Lingo，它是改善我的代谢健康的宝贵工具。
If you would like to try Lingo, Huberman Lab listeners in the US and UK can save 10% on a four-week plan.
如果您想尝试 Lingo，美国和英国的 Huberman Lab 听众可以在为期 4 周的计划中节省 10%。
Just visit hellolingo.com/huberman for more information.
请访问 hellolingo.com/huberman 了解更多信息。
Terms and conditions apply.
条款和条件适用。
Again, that's hellolingo.com/huberman.
再说一次，这是hellolingo.com/huberman。
Let me pause you here.
让我在这里暂停一下。
People are probably saying, "Should I take it or should I not?"
人们可能会说，“我应该接受还是不应该接受？”
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just hang in there, folks, because this is really, really important.
各位，请坚持住，因为这真的非常非常重要。
What is so striking to me about BPC, and by the way, that's not an endorsement for BPC, just what's so striking to me, because my lab worked for a long time on optic nerve repair and neural regeneration.
BPC 让我如此震惊的地方，顺便说一句，这并不是对 BPC 的认可，而是让我如此震惊的地方，因为我的实验室长期致力于视神经修复和神经再生。
Nerves don't like to regenerate in the central nervous system.
中枢神经系统中的神经不喜欢再生。
Peripheral nervous system, they do it.
周围神经系统，他们做到了。
They do it slowly, but they do it.
他们做得很慢，但他们做到了。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not in the central nervous system.
不在中枢神经系统中。
Ask anyone who's had a stroke or an optic nerve injury.
询问任何患有中风或视神经损伤的人。
It's a tough road at best.
这是一条艰难的路。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There are data that I've seen with my own eyes that show that you can accelerate healing of tendon-
我亲眼所见的数据表明，可以加速肌腱的愈合-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of ligament, of nerve pathways.
韧带、神经通路。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
In animals, yes.
在动物中，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In animals, yes.
在动物中，是的。
Thank you.
谢谢。
And that it just generally promotes, quote-unquote, "repair."
而且它只是一般性地提倡“修复”。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's kind of weird.
这有点奇怪。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
It is weird.
这很奇怪。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Very.
非常。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because I could spend the next 10 hours or more telling you about all the ways that people have tried to get nerves to regenerate and couldn't, and as you pointed out, this thing doesn't really have one specific, at least known, receptor.
因为我可以在接下来的 10 个小时或更长时间里告诉你人们尝试过让神经再生但未能成功的所有方法，正如你所指出的，这个东西实际上并没有一种特定的、至少是已知的受体。
So the data on the gut make a lot of sense.
因此，肠道数据很有意义。
This is, after all, a gut peptide.
毕竟，这是一种肠肽。
It makes sense that that gut peptide could get lots of places in the body.
肠道肽可以进入体内很多地方，这是有道理的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But what is it doing mechanistically, if we know, to support regeneration or replenishment of all these different tissue types?
但如果我们知道的话，它在机制上是如何支持所有这些不同组织类型的再生或补充的呢？
Because a neuron is a very different cell type-
因为神经元是一种非常不同的细胞类型——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
than a fibroblast or one of the bits of collagen that make up different connective tissues.
比成纤维细胞或构成不同结缔组织的胶原蛋白之一更重要。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
It's modulating a lot of these growth and healing pathways.
它正在调节许多生长和愈合途径。
Like in the models of damaging the endothelial layer, or the epithelial layer of different tissues, you'll get more VEGF signaling.
就像在损伤内皮层或不同组织的上皮层的模型中一样，您将获得更多 VEGF 信号传导。
So that's the vascular endothelial growth factor.
这就是血管内皮生长因子。
So you get more blood vessels, angiogenesis being formed, which creates a lot of the controversy around BPC's safety.
因此，你会获得更多的血管，形成血管生成，这引起了很多围绕 BPC 安全性的争议。
You'll get cell migration, especially when coupled with TB500 and TB4.
您将获得细胞迁移，尤其是与 TB500 和 TB4 结合使用时。
You'll get more access of the healing factors to the area through angiogenic pathways.
您将通过血管生成途径更多地获得该区域的愈合因子。
On top of that, you'll get an anti-stress effect.
最重要的是，你会得到抗压力的效果。
So the other big thing that they did was they'd give corticosteroids with BPC-157 to these mice, and usually when you have a wound and you give corticosteroids, the corticosteroids will slow or even stop the wound healing from happening.
因此，他们做的另一件大事是给这些小鼠注射皮质类固醇和 BPC-157，通常当你有伤口并给予皮质类固醇时，皮质类固醇会减缓甚至阻止伤口愈合。
When BPC was administered, the healing was either the same or even better.
当使用 BPC 时，愈合效果相同甚至更好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is BPC considered anti-inflammatory?
BPC 是否具有抗炎作用？
Because based on what you just said, it almost seems like it helps maintain some of the pro-inflammatory response.
因为根据你刚才所说的，它似乎有助于维持一些促炎症反应。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some people might be thinking, why would you want inflammation?
有些人可能会想，为什么要发炎呢？
What Dr. Bhakri just said is if you block inflammation with corticosteroids-
巴克里博士刚才说的是，如果你用皮质类固醇来阻止炎症——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you aren't going to call in the signals to repair tissues.
你不会调用信号来修复组织。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So lowering inflammation is a dicey thing that maybe we set aside for later in the conversation if we have time, but is it thought that BPC is lowering inflammation, or is just somehow hitting the gas pedal on all these regenerative, restorative biological processes?
因此，降低炎症是一件冒险的事情，如果有时间的话，我们可能会在稍后的谈话中将其放在一边，但人们是否认为 BPC 正在降低炎症，或者只是以某种方式踩下所有这些再生、恢复性生物过程的油门？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
It's more putting the gas pedal on these processes to bring in the immune system, the healing factors.
更多的是给这些过程踩油门，以引入免疫系统和愈合因子。
For example, in one tendon model, they noticed that it increased the amount of growth hormone receptors on the tendon.
例如，在一种肌腱模型中，他们注意到它增加了肌腱上生长激素受体的数量。
So theoretically, this would allow more growth hormone to dock in and cause the outgrowth of the tendon and the regrowth of it.
因此从理论上讲，这将允许更多的生长激素进入并导致肌腱的生长和再生。
So there's that theory there.
所以就有了这个理论。
Downstream, it'll modulate nitric oxide synthesis, so that's a big thing when it comes to wound healing because you need to dilate the blood vessels, you need to call in different cells.
在下游，它将调节一氧化氮的合成，所以这对于伤口愈合来说是一件大事，因为你需要扩张血管，你需要调用不同的细胞。
So it's really changing the way cells behave at that level.
所以它确实改变了细胞在该水平上的行为方式。
But that's only for the tendon side of it.
但这仅适用于肌腱一侧。
They also did weird things on the neurological side, like they would make these mice drunk Okay?
他们还在神经方面做了一些奇怪的事情，比如他们会让这些老鼠喝醉，好吗？
And they would then give them BPC, and they'd get less drunk when they go through mazes.
然后他们会给他们 BPC，他们在穿过迷宫时就不会那么醉了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, boy.
哦，男孩。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We did not just recommend you take BPC with alcohol.
我们不只是建议您将 BPC 与酒精一起服用。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just want to be very clear.
只是想非常清楚。
But people are good, will do their own interpretation.
但人都是善良的，都会做自己的诠释。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, I'm being semi-facetious, but very interesting.
所以，我是半开玩笑的，但很有趣。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
And then also, they would give the mice drunk and then have them withdraw from alcohol.
然后，他们会让老鼠喝醉，然后让它们戒酒。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
And that withdrawal is deadly.
这种撤退是致命的。
If we have a patient in the hospital that withdrawals, they could die during that withdrawal if they're not given benzodiazepines.
如果我们医院里有一名患者出现戒断症状，如果不给予苯二氮卓类药物，他们可能会在戒断期间死亡。
They got BPC, and they didn't have the withdrawal symptoms.
他们服用了 BPC，并且没有出现戒断症状。
I'm like, "What's going on here?" This is a very interesting compound.
我想，“这里发生了什么事？”这是一个非常有趣的化合物。
I think it gets all the hype for the MSK stuff, but I think the neurological, neuropsychiatric, let's say, and then gastric effects are way more interesting when it comes to that because it's modulating the gut-brain access in an interesting way.
我认为它得到了 MSK 斯隆产品的所有炒作，但我认为神经学、神经精神学和胃效应在这方面更有趣，因为它以一种有趣的方式调节肠脑通路。
We'll have people come to us, and they're like, "My Adderall's not working since I've been taking oral BPC."
有人来找我们，他们会说，“自从我服用口服 BPC 以来，我的阿得拉不起作用了。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are they happy with that effect?
他们对这种效果满意吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
No, they're not happy.
不，他们不高兴。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
They're very mad because it seems like it's blunting their Adderall.
他们非常生气，因为这似乎削弱了他们的阿德拉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
So, it's doing something from dopaminergic signaling on both sides, both withdrawal, when it comes to the GABAergic side, but also the peak of signaling.
因此，它从两侧的多巴胺能信号传导中发挥作用，既涉及 GABA 能一侧，又是信号传导的峰值。
So, if you peruse Reddit, which you should never do, you'll find all these anhedonia discussions about BPC.
因此，如果你仔细阅读 Reddit（你绝对不应该这样做），你会发现所有这些关于 BPC 的快感缺乏的讨论。
People feel depressed and low energy.
人们感到沮丧和精力不足。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Incredible.
难以置信。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
So, it seems to be homeostatic.
所以，它似乎是稳态的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In terms of effects in animals-
就对动物的影响而言——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and anecdotal reports in humans.
以及人类的轶事报告。
Because I think both your and my excitement about this might be occupying a substantial amount of the force field here, let's do something that normally I would do in a few minutes.
因为我认为你和我对此的兴奋可能占据了这里的大量力场，所以让我们做一些我通常会在几分钟内做的事情。
I'm going to ask you some very direct questions-
我要问你一些非常直接的问题——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
about this, and I don't hold you responsible as being BPC- ...
关于这一点，我不认为你对 BPC- 负责......
spokesperson, but here you are.
发言人，但你来了。
That's Pavlov's job.
这是巴甫洛夫的工作。
And he's dead.
他死了。
Are there any known adverse events from people taking BPC, known and documented, okay?
服用 BPC 的人是否有任何已知的不良事件，已知并记录在案，好吗？
Adverse events where it's unrelated to contamination or something of that sort.
与污染或类似事件无关的不良事件。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
In the literature, when it comes to the animal data, they've injected animals with 1,000 times the dose of BPC with no real adverse effects.
在文献中，当涉及到动物数据时，他们给动物注射了1000倍剂量的BPC，没有出现真正的副作用。
So, we don't even know the LD50 of BPC, which makes it hard for it to become an FDA-approved-
所以，我们甚至不知道BPC的LD50，这使得它很难成为FDA批准的-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe define LD50.
也许定义 LD50。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
LD50 is the dose of which would kill 50% of the animals if it was administered to them.
LD50 是指如果对动物施用该剂量，将杀死 50% 的动物。
So, we don't even know what that is.
所以，我们甚至不知道那是什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that's actually an important number, as barbaric as it sounds, to determine for any drug.
这实际上是一个重要的数字，尽管听起来很野蛮，但对于任何药物来说都是如此。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's the LD50 for caffeine?
咖啡因的 LD50 是多少？
What's the LD50 for aspirin?
阿司匹林的 LD50 是多少？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Every drug you take, folks, on or off the counter-
伙计们，你服用的每一种药物，无论是在柜台上还是非处方药——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
prescription or non-prescription, has gone through LD50 testing-
处方或非处方，已通过LD50测试-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in animals.
在动物中。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
To be a clinician to prescribe this, we need to know what that is-
作为一名临床医生，我们需要知道那是什么——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
which limits us.
这限制了我们。
Now, there was two very small Phase 1 and Phase 2 trials on rectal BPC enemas in the early 2000s from that same Croatian group.
现在，同一克罗地亚小组在 2000 年代初对直肠 BPC 灌肠剂进行了两项非常小的第一阶段和第二阶段试验。
So, that's the big concern with BPC, all the data comes from one group, so people can be skeptical.
所以，这是 BPC 的一大担忧，所有数据都来自一组，因此人们可能会持怀疑态度。
There's a couple of Chinese groups that have also replicated some of their work, but those groups wanted to try to treat ulcerative colitis.
有几个中国团体也复制了他们的一些工作，但这些团体希望尝试治疗溃疡性结肠炎。
It's a very miserable condition where the immune system attacks the lining of the gut in multiple spots.
这是一种非常悲惨的情况，免疫系统会在多个部位攻击肠道内壁。
And they use enemas of BPC up to 80 milligrams, which is much more than people would take.
他们使用高达 80 毫克的 BPC 灌肠剂，这比人们服用的要多得多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Most people are injecting micrograms.
大多数人注射微克。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
100 or 200 micrograms-
100 或 200 微克-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
per day or something.
每天或其他什么。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe more, but-
也许更多，但是——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah, up to a milligram, yeah
是的，高达一毫克，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you're talking about 80 milligrams.
你说的是80毫克。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah, rectal enemas.
是的，直肠灌肠。
They did a Phase 1 and Phase 2 trial.
他们进行了第一阶段和第二阶段试验。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're doing this daily, or they do it once?
他们每天都这样做，还是只做一次？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
They did it for a few weeks.
他们这样做了几个星期。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
And then they re-measured.
然后他们重新测量。
It was placebo-controlled.
这是安慰剂对照的。
The data's not available.
数据不可用。
The abstracts are only available.
摘要仅可用。
So, that's what also gives us some pause when we're going to push that forward, especially when the legal discussions are happening here in the next few months-
因此，这也让我们在推动这一进程时犹豫不决，尤其是在接下来的几个月里将进行法律讨论时——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
on BPC.
在 BPC 上。
The Phase 1 trial showed no adverse effects.
第一阶段试验未显示任何不良影响。
And they didn't even have BPC in the systemic system, too.
而且他们的系统中甚至也没有BPC。
That's a key point to know, that orally administered or rectally administered BPC doesn't seem to go systemic.
需要了解的一个关键点是，口服或直肠给药的 BPC 似乎不会产生全身作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe define-
也许定义-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that a little bit more specifically.
更具体一点。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
If you take aspirin and then you measure blood aspirin levels, you'll notice the levels go up.
如果您服用阿司匹林，然后测量血液中阿司匹林的含量，您会发现阿司匹林的含量上升。
When they measured BPC levels, BPC 157 levels, in these individuals, they didn't find it in the blood.
当他们测量这些人的 BPC 水平（BPC 157 水平）时，他们在血液中没有发现它。
So, either it was broken down very quickly, or it stayed locally to the lining of the gastric tissues.
因此，它要么很快被分解，要么停留在胃组织内壁的局部。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That raises a question for me.
这给我提出了一个问题。
Let's say somebody doesn't, quote-unquote, "take any BPC 157" by enema or otherwise.
假设有人没有通过灌肠或其他方式“服用任何 BPC 157”。
If I were to just draw your blood right now-
如果我现在就抽你的血-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
there's BPC 157 in there, in the bigger protein.
更大的蛋白质中含有 BPC 157。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
The bigger BPC protein?
更大的 BPC 蛋白？
I don't think you would find it.
我想你不会找到它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is it circulating, or is it restricted to the gut?
它是循环的还是仅限于肠道？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
We don't have that data.
我们没有这些数据。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But that's incredible, right?
但这太不可思议了，对吧？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because we're talking about these effects all over the body.
因为我们正在谈论这些对全身的影响。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We don't even know if it leaves the gut.
我们甚至不知道它是否离开肠道。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
No. But, well, the injectable is going to go systemic.
不。但是，注射剂将进入全身。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And most people are going to take, if they decide to do this-
大多数人会采取，如果他们决定这样做——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
are going to take an oral or an injectable.
将服用口服或注射剂。
They're either going to inject local to the injury-
他们要么对伤口进行局部注射——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
if they can.
如果可以的话。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Or intraperitoneal.
或腹腔内。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So-
所以——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
They found fragments of the 15.
他们发现了15号的碎片。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
There's a paper in 2024 that looked at this, and they could figure out if somebody had BPC administered for doping reasons, because it's on the WADA list now.
2024 年有一篇论文对此进行了研究，他们可以找出是否有人因兴奋剂原因接受了 BPC 管理，因为它现在在 WADA 名单上。
So, they could figure out if someone had taken BPC.
因此，他们可以确定是否有人服用了 BPC。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it.
明白了。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
But we don't know.
但我们不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
We need to know the dynamics.
我们需要了解动态。
We don't know where it goes, how it goes.
我们不知道它去哪里，如何去。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we don't know the results in terms of what those 80-milligram enemas of BPC did for the colitis.
我们不知道 80 毫克 BPC 灌肠剂对结肠炎的治疗效果。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
In the Phase 1 trial, it was just the safety.
在第一阶段试验中，只是安全性。
There was no adverse effects.
没有不良反应。
In the Phase 2 trial, it was very small, like 40 patients.
在 2 期试验中，规模非常小，只有 40 名患者。
There was at least a positive signal on the ulcerative colitis.
溃疡性结肠炎至少有一个阳性信号。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And this was done in the United States, or this was-
这是在美国完成的，或者这是-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Croatia
克罗地亚
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in Croatia?
在克罗地亚？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Croatia.
克罗地亚。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, so to be quite direct, on the one hand, you have groups who I think are mostly well-intentioned saying, "Hey, 80 milligrams of BPC by way of enema did not cause any adverse events." And that's the Phase 1 that you described.
好吧，坦白说，一方面，我认为有些团体大多是善意的，他们会说：“嘿，通过灌肠方式服用 80 毫克 BPC 并没有引起任何不良事件。”这就是您所描述的第一阶段。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
If we believe their data, that is true.
如果我们相信他们的数据，那就是真的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Right.
正确的。
On the opposite side, many people, especially in the United States and Northern Europe, where the regulations tend to be similar-ish-
相反，很多人，尤其是在美国和北欧，那里的法规往往是相似的——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
right?
对吗？
As compared to elsewhere in the world, would say, "Well, yeah, but that study was in Croatia." Now, I have many Croatian friends.
与世界其他地方相比，我会说，“嗯，是的，但这项研究是在克罗地亚进行的。”现在，我有很多克罗地亚朋友。
That's not a knock on Croatia.
这并不是对克罗地亚的打击。
Why would it be that the clinical trials in Croatia would hold less weight?
为什么克罗地亚的临床试验的分量会更轻呢？
This is a dicey area, but I think it's important because you'll hear this, "Oh, those are Chinese peptides.
这是一个危险的领域，但我认为这很重要，因为你会听到这样的话，“哦，那些是中国肽。
Those are Russian studies."
这些是俄罗斯研究。”
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, and?
是啊，还有？
To me-
对我来说-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the question is, was it good science?
问题是，这是好的科学吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Was it done carefully?
做得很仔细吗？
Would it Pass muster for a phase one in the United States?
它会通过美国第一阶段的测试吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
That's a good question.
这是个好问题。
The groups seem to be very robust, and they do really good randomized controlled, double-blind placebo-controlled trials.
这些小组似乎非常强大，并且他们做了非常好的随机对照、双盲安慰剂对照试验。
I think we're very United States-centric.
我认为我们非常以美国为中心。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
We view ourselves as the premier science, and we are the premier science, so people kind of trust that more.
我们认为自己是最重要的科学，我们就是最重要的科学，所以人们更加信任这一点。
And there may be perverse incentives when it comes to different government bodies-
当涉及到不同的政府机构时，可能会存在不正当的激励措施——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
and Soviet-era research that might be pro fabrication when it comes to certain compounds that makes people hesitant.
以及苏联时代的研究，当涉及到某些让人犹豫不决的化合物时，这些研究可能是捏造的。
Because there's a lot of these Soviet era compounds that are not peptides, or some of them are peptides, that are fantastic.
因为有很多苏联时代的化合物不是肽，或者其中一些是肽，这太棒了。
They sound amazing.
他们听起来棒极了。
But when they get tested, maybe they're not as potent as the Soviet data would suggest.
但当它们接受测试时，也许它们并不像苏联数据所显示的那么有效。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I always thought that the Russian stuff was the really potent stuff that they didn't want anyone else to know about.
我一直认为俄罗斯的东西是真正有效的东西，他们不想让其他人知道。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
That is also very true.
这也是非常正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It kind of went, it goes the other way, right?
有点往相反的方向发展，对吧？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
It could go both ways.
它可以是双向的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
But they were more interested in performance.
但他们更感兴趣的是表演。
They wanted better astronauts, better Olympians, better soldiers.
他们想要更好的宇航员、更好的奥运会选手、更好的士兵。
We care more about a profit drug model that gets people on a subscription with a monthly drug, unfortunately.
不幸的是，我们更关心的是一种盈利药物模式，这种模式让人们订阅每月的药物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Sometimes it heals people, but...
有时它可以治愈人，但是...
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So nowadays, is BPC 157 legal in the United States?
那么现在BPC 157在美国合法吗？
If I wanted to go online and buy BPC 157, I can do it, right?
如果我想上网购买 BPC 157，我可以做到，对吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
You could-
你可以-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Legally
合法地
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
for research purposes only.
仅供研究之用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I thought now under the new regulations recently passed, that you can get it from a compounding pharmacy or-
我想根据最近通过的新规定，你可以从复合药房购买它，或者-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Technically not just yet.
从技术上讲还没有。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
And it depends on medical boards.
这取决于医疗委员会。
To break it down, BPC 157 never got FDA approved, right?
详细来说，BPC 157 从未获得 FDA 批准，对吗？
So it gets into these compounding pharmacy lists.
因此它进入了这些复合药房清单。
There's a category one, two, and three.
有第一类、第二类和第三类。
Category one means the FDA thinks like, "Hey, this is not an approved drug, but we're okay with you compounding this, and you're okay to push that forward." Category two is like, do not compound.
第一类意味着 FDA 的想法是，“嘿，这不是一种已批准的药物，但我们同意你将其混合，并且你可以推动这一进程。”第二类是喜欢，不复合。
In late 2024, BPC 157 and 20 other peptides got moved to this category two list.
2024 年底，BPC 157 和其他 20 种肽被移至第二类列表。
Since about 2017 to 2024, people have been prescribing BPC in these alternative medicine, anti-aging practices.
大约从 2017 年到 2024 年，人们一直在这些替代医学、抗衰老实践中开出 BPC。
It gets removed from that list.
它将从该列表中删除。
Of course, compounding pharmacies re-label it as PDA, pentadecapeptide arginate.
当然，复方药店将其重新标记为PDA，十五肽精氨酸。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it's the same thing.
但这是同一件事。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
It's the same exact thing.
这是完全相同的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
One of them will be an acetate, one of them will be an arginate, but the PDA is BPC 157.
其中一种是乙酸盐，一种是精氨酸盐，但 PDA 是 BPC 157。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because there are many people selling compounded pentadecapeptide.
因为卖复合十五肽的人很多。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Pentadecapeptide.
十五肽。
Arginate, PDA is-
精氨酸，PDA 是-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Did I mispronounce it?
我发音错了吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah, pentadecapeptide arginate.
是的，十五肽精氨酸。
That's the-
那就是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Arginate.
精氨酸。
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
I think the acetate one is the one that's on the category two list.
我认为醋酸纤维属于第二类列表中的一种。
Now, just in April of this year, it got removed from the category two list, and it's not yet on the category one list, which would allow physicians to prescribe it-
现在，就在今年四月，它被从二类清单中删除，并且尚未进入一类清单，这将允许医生开处方 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
through compounding pharmacies.
通过配制药房。
Now-
现在——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But they can prescribe the PDA version.
但他们可以开 PDA 版本。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
People are prescribing PDA.
人们正在开 PDA 处方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes.
是的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Now, state medical boards view that very differently.
现在，州医疗委员会的看法截然不同。
I got a letter from one of the licensed in many states.
我收到了一封来自许多州持有执照的人的来信。
One of these states reached out to me and was like, "You cannot prescribe..." Not me directly, to-
其中一个州向我伸出援手，说：“你不能开药方……”不是我直接向——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
the general public of people in that state, said, "You cannot prescribe non-FDA-approved peptides, no matter what."
该州的公众说：“无论如何，你不能开出未经 FDA 批准的肽。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
So there's controversy there.
所以这里面就有争议。
Even if the FDA says, "Okay, we're okay with you prescribing it," is your medical board in that state going to be okay with it?
即使 FDA 说：“好吧，我们同意你开这个处方”，你所在州的医疗委员会会同意吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's state by state.
所以这是一个州一个州的情况。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
State by state laws.
州法律规定。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What about with telehealth?
远程医疗怎么样？
So somebody's on the East Coast in a state that allows them to write a script for, let's just call it BPC-
所以有人在东海岸的一个州允许他们编写脚本，我们就称之为 BPC-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because that's effectively what it is.
因为这实际上就是它的本质。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or this other thing where-
或者其他的事情——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
they kind of wriggle through the regulation.
他们有点想通过监管。
Can they send that to California or to Wisconsin or someplace else if the patient is there?
如果患者在那里，他们可以将其发送到加利福尼亚州或威斯康星州或其他地方吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
The telehealth laws go into effect where the patient is.
远程医疗法律在患者所在的地方生效。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
So if, let's say, in California, it's not allowed to have BPC according to the State Board of Pharmacy or whoever bans that.
因此，假设在加利福尼亚州，根据州药房委员会或任何禁止的机构的规定，不允许使用 BPC。
Even if you're a New York doctor that's licensed in California, that would be against the California Medical Board, and they would ask you, if they found out, to stand in front of them.
即使你是在加州获得执照的纽约医生，这也会违反加州医学委员会的规定，如果他们发现了，他们会要求你站在他们面前。
Now, are boards cracking down on this?
现在，董事会是否正在对此进行严厉打击？
Not really.
并不真地。
There's a couple of states that are cracking down on people, and people know to avoid those states.
有几个州正在镇压人们，人们知道要避开这些州。
But it's going to be very dicey over the next few years.
但未来几年将会非常危险。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
A couple of questions.
有几个问题。
Anecdota.
轶事。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We don't want to place too much on it, but the big kind of rumor out there that pricked up my ears a few years ago was when I heard that some athlete before the Summer Olympics, this was two Summer Olympics ago, from Eastern Europe, had a complete Achilles transection.
我们不想对此透露太多，但几年前引起我注意的一个大谣言是，我听说夏季奥运会前，即两届夏季奥运会前，来自东欧的一些运动员遭遇了跟腱完全横断。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not just a tear or a pull, but when we think about nerves and tendons, we think, like, complete cut the whole way through.
不仅仅是撕裂或拉扯，当我们想到神经和肌腱时，我们会认为，就像是完全切开一样。
And the rumor was they took BPC 157, locally injected for a few months, and they podiumed in the Olympics.
有传言说他们服用了 BPC 157，局部注射了几个月，然后他们在奥运会上登上了领奖台。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They still got a medal.
他们仍然获得了奖牌。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Familiar with that story.
这个故事很熟悉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That was the-
那是——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
story that kind of got out there that I feel kind of catalyzed this movement of BPC out of these niche communities, and started it toward the public awareness that leads to you sitting here today.
我觉得这个故事有点催化了 BPC 走出这些利基社区的运动，并开始提高公众意识，导致你们今天坐在这里。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Among other things.
除此之外。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You have a lot of other knowledge.
你还有很多其他的知识。
But we're restricting to BPC now.
但我们现在限制为 BPC。
So do we have verification of that story?
那么我们有证实这个故事吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
No. I think that story was hearsay.
不，我认为那个故事只是道听途说。
I don't think they wanted to reveal what they actually did.
我认为他们不想透露他们实际上做了什么。
I don't think they only did BPC 157.
我不认为他们只做了 BPC 157。
They'd be stupid if they did.
如果他们这样做的话，那就太蠢了。
They should have all the best and latest, greatest treatments, whether exosome, stem cells, other peptides, cocktail-
他们应该拥有所有最好的、最新的、最好的治疗方法，无论是外泌体、干细胞、其他肽、鸡尾酒疗法——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Anything that wasn't banned.
任何没有被禁止的东西。
And by the way, I should say BPC 157 was not on the banned substances-
顺便说一句，我应该说 BPC 157 并不在违禁物质上——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
No
否
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
list at that time.
当时的名单。
It was so unknown.
原来如此不为人知。
Just like there are compounds right now that athletes are using-
就像现在运动员正在使用的化合物一样——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and not just in the enhanced games-
不仅仅是在增强型游戏中——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in preparation for the Olympics.
为奥运会做准备。
I'm not saying they're all doping, but it's a common practice that athletes will forage into things that can help them that are not yet on the banned substances list.
我并不是说它们都使用了兴奋剂，但运动员会寻找尚未列入禁用物质清单的东西来帮助他们，这是一种常见的做法。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
And good luck proving that BPC was injected a week ago.
祝你好运，证明 BPC 是一周前注射的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Because by the time, the peptide's already gone out of your system.
因为到那时，肽已经从你的系统中消失了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Or at least we think based on the pharmacodynamics that we understand now.
或者至少我们是根据我们现在了解的药效学来思考的。
That story was run with from the research community.
这个故事是由研究界流传的。
They used it as a marketing tool to sell more BPC 157.
他们将其用作营销工具来销售更多 BPC 157。
Because what happened in the field is the GLP-1s come online late 2021, 2022 with Ozempic and Wegovy.
因为现场发生的事情是 GLP-1 与 Ozempic 和 Wegovy 于 2021 年末、2022 年上线。
They get the FDA approval for weight loss.
他们获得了 FDA 的减肥批准。
There's not enough of a supply from the traditional pharmaceutical versions of the GLP-1s, so people start looking elsewhere to get their weight loss drugs.
传统药物版本的 GLP-1 供应不足，因此人们开始到其他地方寻找减肥药物。
I know people that would drive down to Mexico to pick up pens, because a pharmacy in the United States would cost $1,500 for an Ozempic pen.
我知道有人会开车去墨西哥买钢笔，因为在美国的药店购买一支 Ozempic 钢笔要花费 1,500 美元。
Pharmacy in Mexico, one-hour drive, $100.
墨西哥药店，一小时车程，100美元。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Same drug.
一样的药。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Same exact drug.
完全相同的药物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How much relative cost?
相对成本是多少？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
150 versus 1,500.
150 与 1,500。
So 10X.
所以 10 倍。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And this is the thing that Trump has been-
这就是特朗普所做的事情——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
very vocal about, like-
非常直言不讳地谈论，比如——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that we're getting overcharged for drugs here.
我们这里的毒品收费过高。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
We definitely are.
我们绝对是。
And the Trump RX has lowered a lot of these prices, by the way, for a lot of these drugs.
顺便说一下，Trump RX 已经降低了很多此类药物的价格。
Now, that time there was a shortage of semaglutide and then eventually tirzepatide, so the compound pharmacy game shifted into making these drugs, compounded versions, so they're not the FDA-approved versions, but when there's a shortage of a medication, the compounders are allowed to make these drugs to meet the shortage.
现在，当时出现了索马鲁肽的短缺，最终出现了替西帕肽的短缺，因此复合药房的游戏转向了制造这些药物，复合版本，所以它们不是 FDA 批准的版本，但当药物短缺时，复合剂可以制造这些药物来满足短缺。
And in fact, the FDA was reaching out to these people telling them to do it.
事实上，FDA 正在联系这些人，告诉他们这样做。
Like Brigham was talking to him last week at the NHANES games, and he's like, "Yeah, the FDA told us to make this stuff, and then they're getting us in trouble."
就像布里格姆上周在 NHANES 比赛中与他交谈一样，他说，“是的，FDA 告诉我们要制造这种东西，然后他们给我们带来了麻烦。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is Brigham Buhler-
这是布里格姆·布勒——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
who runs Ways to Well, and-
谁经营“通往健康之路”，以及-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
he ran a pharmacy for a long time, right?
他经营药店很长时间了，对吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
He's the best, yeah.
他是最好的，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Compounding pharmacy.
复方药剂。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
One of the best.
最好的之一。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
We've never actually met in person.
我们从未真正见过面。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
One of the best ones, yeah.
最好的之一，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is not an ad for pharmacies.
这不是药店的广告。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We have no...
我们没有...
I have no business relationship to Brigham.
我与布里格姆没有业务关系。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So if there's a shortage-
所以如果出现短缺的话——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
compounding pharmacies can jump in the game.
配制药房可以加入游戏。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
And they did.
他们做到了。
And they jumped in very hard.
他们非常努力地跳进去。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
On the GLPs.
关于 GLP。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes, and they made a lot of money off the GLP-1s.
是的，他们通过 GLP-1 赚了很多钱。
This was billions of dollars being made.
这已经赚了数十亿美元。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Were they selling them for less than standard pharma was selling them for?
他们的销售价格是否低于制药公司的标准销售价格？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
They were less than the Ozempic pens.
它们比臭氧围栏要少。
Unfortunately, what would happen is the provider had the discretion on the price, so all these providers also were making a lot of money.
不幸的是，会发生的情况是提供商对价格有自由裁量权，因此所有这些提供商也赚了很多钱。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Who's the "provider"?
谁是“提供者”？
The physician?
医生？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
The physician or the NP or the PA.
医生或 NP 或 PA。
Um-
嗯-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Who takes the difference?
谁承担差额？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
The clinician, which I don't think is legal in most states.
临床医生，我认为这在大多数州都是不合法的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wait a second.
等一下。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Or maybe not even federally.
或者甚至可能不是联邦的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wait a second.
等一下。
So-
所以——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
let's say I wanted to take a Wegovy.
假设我想参加 Wegovy。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there's a shortage.
而且还存在短缺。
I can't get it from, who's the big manufacturer of-
我无法从谁那里得到它 -
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Novo Nordisk.
诺和诺德。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Novo Nordisk doesn't have enough.
诺和诺德的资金还不够。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My doctor says, "Listen, you need this."
我的医生说：“听着，你需要这个。”
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I say, "How much is it?" And they say, "Well, $1,500." But it turns out the compounding pharmacy, through a different doctor, a more benevolent doctor-
我说：“多少钱？”他们说：“好吧，1,500 美元。”但事实证明，复方药剂，通过了不同的医生，更加仁慈的医生——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
There you go
就这样吧
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
could have prescribed it to me for, I could get for maybe $300.
可以给我开处方，我大概花 300 美元就能买到。
In the case where I'm paying $1,500, it's going to my physician unbeknownst to me.
如果我支付 1,500 美元，这笔钱将在我不知情的情况下转给我的医生。
I'm cloaked from the process.
我从这个过程中隐藏起来。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
If you're getting the Novo Nordisk pen, the physician's not involved in that at all.
如果您使用诺和诺德笔，医生根本不会参与其中。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
No, I'm talking about if I'm drifted towards a compounded version.
不，我说的是我是否倾向于复合版本。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
A compounded version.
复合版本。
So most of the times when it comes to compound pharmacies, which I don't think is a good practice, the clinician gets a price from the pharmacy.
因此，大多数时候，当谈到复方药房时，我认为这不是一个好的做法，临床医生会从药房获取价格。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
So the pharmacist will tell you, "Hey, a vial of semaglutide costs 150 bucks."
所以药剂师会告诉你，“嘿，一瓶索马鲁肽要 150 美元。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
This clinician can now sell that vial to the patient.
该临床医生现在可以将该小瓶出售给患者。
Sell, that's really, they're charging an administrative fee, right?
卖啊，确实是要收管理费吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
It's not a sale- ...
这不是销售——...
because technically you can't sell medications like that.
因为从技术上讲你不能销售这样的药物。
They will sell it to you for $200 or $800.
他们会以 200 美元或 800 美元的价格卖给你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
If I want to ask my physician, "How much are you getting the drug for from..." Because I know which pharmacy it's going to come from-
如果我想问我的医生，“你从……那里买这种药多少钱？”因为我知道它会来自哪家药房-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because it's going to come in a vial that says-
因为它装在一个小瓶里，上面写着——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
like Upstate or Tailormade-
比如北部或定制 -
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or what's Brigham's pharmacy?
或者布里格姆的药房是什么？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Revive.
复活。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Revive.
复活。
It's coming from Revive.
是从复兴来的。
What are you paying for this from Revive?
你从 Revive 那里支付了什么费用？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then what are you going to charge me?
然后你要向我收取什么费用？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I can assume the difference is going to my clinician.
我可以假设我的临床医生会得到这种差异。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
It's going to the clinician, all day.
一整天都会交给临床医生。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All right.
好吧。
Sorry, clinicians.
抱歉，临床医生们。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The game is up.
比赛开始了。
Patients are now going to ask, and you have every right to ask, as far as I'm concerned.
现在病人会问，就我而言，你完全有权利问。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah, because what's going to happen with the BPC and all these other peptides moving is there's going to be telehealth platforms on every corner now that are going to be like, "Hey, BPC, $199.
是的，因为 BPC 和所有其他肽的移动将会发生什么，现在每个角落都会出现远程医疗平台，就像，“嘿，BPC，199 美元。
BPC, $299." And they're going to check out, and there's going to be a doctor somewhere in a room that's going to stamp the prescription.
BPC，299 美元。”他们要去检查，房间里的某个地方会有一位医生在处方上盖章。
But it's just a e-commerce.
但这只是电子商务。
It's supplements with the stamp of a doctor, which is not good medical care at all.
这是带有医生印章的补品，根本不是好的医疗保健。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
To balance this a bit, the route that many people have gone for about a decade now, but primarily in the last three to five years, was to go to these for research purposes only-
为了平衡这一点，许多人现在已经走了大约十年的路线，但主要是在过去的三到五年里，只是为了研究目的而去这些 -
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
what we would call gray market.
我们称之为灰色市场。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's just name names because they're out of business now anyway.
让我们只说出名字吧，因为无论如何他们现在已经倒闭了。
They shuttered themselves.
他们关闭了自己。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Peptide Sciences-
肽科学-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
till a few years ago, you could go on there, you could buy pretty much any peptide.
直到几年前，你还可以继续下去，你几乎可以买到任何肽。
It would say, "For research purposes only.
它会说：“仅供研究目的。
Not for animal or human use."
不适合动物或人类使用。”
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then they-
然后他们——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
And you'd sign that many times
你会签很多次
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and when you paid them, you would have to Venmo them-
当你付钱给他们时，你必须给他们Venmo-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or you could do it through Zelle.
或者你可以通过 Zelle 来完成。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But they would ask that you not send it to a Peptide Sciences account.
但他们会要求您不要将其发送到肽科学帐户。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was like some random name-
这就像一个随机的名字——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and the names kept changing.
而且名字一直在变。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So everyone knew they were in on something like this.
所以每个人都知道他们参与了这样的事情。
By the way- ...
顺便说一下——...
I want to be very clear.
我想说得很清楚。
I ended up getting these things, right?
我最终得到了这些东西，对吗？
I was too frightened to take them.
我太害怕了，不敢带它们。
Later, I have taken BPC.
后来我又服用了BPC。
I've tried it.
我试过了。
I don't take it currently, but I've tried it through a compounding pharmacy.
我目前不服用它，但我已经通过复方药房尝试过。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I just want to be very clear what that experience was about.
所以我只想非常清楚那次经历是什么。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
So eventually, they actually got payment processors.
所以最终，他们实际上得到了支付处理器。
This market evolved with the desire-
这个市场随着愿望而发展——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay
好的
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
because there's maybe, I'd say $5 to $10 billion on gray market peptides being spent in the United States in 2025, and that's going to grow this year.
因为到 2025 年，美国可能会在灰色市场肽上花费 5 到 100 亿美元，而且今年还会增长。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So here's my question.
这是我的问题。
Standard pharma we know goes through, of all the things we're talking about, the most stringent process.
我们所知道的标准制药公司要经历我们正在谈论的所有事情中最严格的流程。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You may hate pharma folks or whatever, you're right.
你可能讨厌制药公司或其他什么人，你是对的。
But the stuff that you get that's non-generic-
但你得到的东西是非通用的-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
from Novo Nordisk-
来自诺和诺德-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Or Lilly
或者莉莉
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
from Eli Lilly-
来自礼来公司-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you can be certain based on the product packaging that it's as clean as it gets.
根据产品包装，您可以确定它非常干净。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As pure as it gets.
尽可能纯粹。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Compounding pharmacies are a mix.
复合药房是一个混合体。
It depends on the compounding pharmacy.
这取决于复方药剂。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do we know that gray market peptides had problems?
我们知道灰市肽存在问题吗？
Because there are people out there right now who are certainly not physicians-
因为现在有些人肯定不是医生——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
people like Robert Breedlove, who's best known for his work in crypto, who's also now very open about the fact that he's taking all these peptides-
像罗伯特·布里德洛夫（Robert Breedlove）这样的人，他因在加密领域的工作而闻名，他现在也非常公开地承认他正在服用所有这些肽——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and anabolics and things.
和合成代谢之类的东西。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I heard him online the other day saying literally that he's tested the gray market, for research purposes only peptides, and compared them to the compounding pharmacy versions, and they're identical.
前几天我听到他在网上说，他测试了灰色市场，仅出于研究目的的肽，并将它们与复合药房版本进行比较，它们是相同的。
Now, he's not a physician, and I don't think he's lying, but many people are taking that sort of evidence and saying, "Oh, I'll just get it from gray market sources." As a physician, what is your stance on this?
现在，他不是医生，我不认为他在撒谎，但很多人都在采取此类证据并说：“哦，我会从灰色市场来源获得它。”作为一名医生，您对此持什么立场？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
So the API for all of these, active pharmaceutical ingredients, comes from China.
因此，所有这些活性药物成分的原料药都来自中国。
There are no such thing as American-made peptides.
不存在美国制造的肽这样的东西。
It gets finished here.
到这里就结束了。
So the API-
所以API-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're all from China.
他们都来自中国。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Everything's from China.
一切都来自中国。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The raw materials?
原材料？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
The raw materials, like the semaglutide you're getting from a compounding pharmacy or a research peptide website, Retatrutide included, comes from China, and then either the raw material gets packaged here into vials-
原材料，比如你从复方药房或研究肽网站获得的索马鲁肽（包括瑞他鲁肽），都来自中国，然后原材料在这里被包装到小瓶中-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wait, the raw materials or synthesized compound?
等等，原料还是合成化合物？
Because there's a big difference between getting the raw materials for something and getting the thing.
因为获得某种东西的原材料和得到东西之间有很大的区别。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
The synthesized semaglutide-
合成的索马鲁肽-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
gets made in China.
中国制造。
It'd be very expensive to make it here.
在这里做的话会非常昂贵。
There are people starting to look at that, because that's the next thing in the arms race, to make American peptides, right?
有人开始关注这一点，因为这是军备竞赛中的下一个目标，即制造美国肽，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So they're all Chinese peptides.
所以它们都是中国肽。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Everything's Chinese peptides.
都是中国肽。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's no Guatemalan peptides?
没有危地马拉肽吗？
There's no-
没有-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
China is the best at doing it.
中国在这方面做得最好。
Now, the compounding pharmacies Vary in grading.
现在，复方药店的分级各不相同。
Some of them are really good.
其中一些确实很好。
They do all the testing, sterility, they have very good quality control, so you get a good product.
他们做了所有的测试、无菌，他们有很好的质量控制，所以你得到的是好的产品。
But they usually have to compound it with something else to get by the regulations, like they'll add on a B12 or a B6 to say, the patient had nausea from the traditional semaglutide.
但他们通常必须将其与其他物质混合才能遵守规定，例如他们会添加 B12 或 B6 来表示患者因传统的索马鲁肽而感到恶心。
We can compound them with B12 or B6 to get around the nausea, and that meets the patient rule.
我们可以将它们与 B12 或 B6 混合来缓解恶心，这符合患者的规则。
Because there's two ways to get compounded medications.
因为有两种方法可以获得复合药物。
Either there's a shortage or there's a unique need that the patient has.
要么存在短缺，要么患者有独特的需求。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do we know that compounding with something else actually deals with the nausea, or is that just a-
我们是否知道与其他东西混合实际上可以缓解恶心，或者这只是-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
It's a slight event.
这是一个小事件。
It might help some people.
它可能对某些人有帮助。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it.
明白了。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Anecdotally, people will say that they respond better to the pens, like the actual pharma pens compared to the compounded stuff.
有趣的是，人们会说他们对笔的反应更好，就像真正的药物笔相比于复合材料。
The research stuff is all over the place.
研究的东西到处都是。
Some of it could be better than compounded stuff, it could be the wrong substance.
其中一些可能比复合材料更好，但也可能是错误的物质。
There's a guy went viral on Twitter a few weeks ago.
几周前，有一个人在 Twitter 上走红。
He got retatrutide, started getting darker.
他得了瑞他鲁肽，皮肤颜色开始变黑。
He's like, "I don't think I'm injecting retatrutide."
他说，“我不认为我正在注射瑞他鲁肽。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Skin got it.
皮肤明白了。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
He was in-
他当时在——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it was melanotan
所以这是黑色素
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
he was injecting melanotan 2.
他正在注射melanotan 2。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And folks, I realize that we're going places that not even I predicted we would go, but this is super informative.
各位，我意识到我们要去的地方连我都没有预料到我们会去，但这信息非常丰富。
So all of the raw materials are coming from the same source.
因此，所有原材料都来自同一来源。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Then they're getting filtered into these different, let's just call them stringency bins.
然后它们被过滤到这些不同的类别中，我们称它们为严格度箱。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Standard pharma, quote unquote-
标准制药公司，引用未引用-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
Big Pharma-
大型制药公司-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
being the most stringent.
是最严格的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Some of the raw materials are overseas.
部分原材料来自海外。
I think Lilly's opening some China factories.
我认为礼来公司正在中国开设一些工厂。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Some of it's here.
其中一些在这里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Some are going into compounding pharmacies.
有些人进入了复方药房。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And compounding pharmacies, I think it's fair to say, have varying levels of stringency.
公平地说，复合药房有不同程度的严格要求。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some are going to be excellent, some are good, some are going to be lousy.
有些会很优秀，有些会很好，有些会很糟糕。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fair?
公平吗？
Okay.
好的。
The, quote unquote, gray market peptides, the ones where it's, quote unquote, for research purposes only, but I made the joke on X a few weeks ago, like how many of you are running experiments in your-
那些，引用不引用，灰色市场的肽，它的位置，引用不引用，仅用于研究目的，但几周前我在 X 上开了个玩笑，就像你们中有多少人在你的-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
No one
没有人
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
not on animals, really?
不是在动物身上，真的吗？
What, are you doing cell culture at home?
什么，你在家做细胞培养吗？
Like, come on.
就像，来吧。
I know what's involved in doing cell culture.
我知道细胞培养涉及什么。
You're not- ...
你不是——...
no one's doing this at home.
家里没有人这样做。
So those presumably also come in anywhere from excellent to dreadful.
因此，这些可能也有从优秀到糟糕的情况。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
And-
还有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But we don't know which are which.
但我们不知道哪个是哪个。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Nope.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We don't know that-
我们不知道——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
And batch to batch, that's the big problem.
批次又批次，这是个大问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Gotcha.
明白了。
Okay.
好的。
So it is risky to get for research purposes only peptides.
因此，仅出于研究目的而获取肽是有风险的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
That's the majority of the way people are consuming peptides, unfortunately.
不幸的是，这是人们消费肽的大部分方式。
We should just...
我们应该只是...
Because of the move in 2024 to get these from the category one to the category two list and make them banned, quote unquote, that opened up this gray market zone.
由于 2024 年将这些产品从第一类清单移至第二类清单并禁止它们，因此打开了这个灰色市场区域。
The gray market existed for the last 15, 20 years.
灰色市场已经存在了 15、20 年。
Bodybuilders would have anecdotes about BPC 157.
健美运动员们都会有关于 BPC 157 的轶事。
They'd inject it post squats for different injuries.
他们会在深蹲后注射不同的损伤。
Nobody really cared about it.
没有人真正关心它。
It was with the GLP-1s and then the banning of the peptides, plus this anti-medicine kick that's been happening over the last five years-
是 GLP-1 的出现，然后是肽的禁令，再加上过去五年来发生的反药物运动——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Since the pandemic
疫情发生以来
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
yes, since the pandemic, that people are like, "You know what?
是的，自从大流行以来，人们就像是，“你知道吗？
I want to inject this," because it gives them a sense of autonomy, or they feel like their bro recommended it.
我想注入这个，”因为这给了他们一种自主感，或者他们觉得他们的兄弟推荐了它。
I said the best job in 2025 was to be a peptide affiliate.
我说2025年最好的工作就是做肽会员。
People made my yearly salary in a month selling peptides illegally on TikTok.
人们在 TikTok 上非法销售肽一个月就赚到了我一年的工资。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I will say, because for people that think it's just bro science, it's also gal science.
我会说，因为对于那些认为这只是兄弟科学的人来说，它也是女孩科学。
I will tell you, I don't even know if that's a term.
我告诉你，我什至不知道这是不是一个术语。
Someone needs to come up with a better term.
有人需要想出一个更好的术语。
My understanding, and not from Reddit, is that more than half of the peptide market is female.
我的理解（并非来自 Reddit）是，超过一半的肽市场是女性。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
That's right, for the GLP-1s-
没错，对于GLP-1来说——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You know, there's this perception that it's like, only guys who like to lift weights and want to be jacked, and jacked and tan or whatever they say.
你知道，有这样一种看法，那就是，只有那些喜欢举重的人才想被举重，被举重，晒黑，或者无论他们说什么。
No.
不。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Especially when we start getting into things like GHK-Cu.
尤其是当我们开始研究 GHK-Cu 这样的东西时。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we start talking about things for collagen and skin-
我们开始谈论胶原蛋白和皮肤的事情 -
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
rejuvenation.
复兴。
There's a big peptide market aimed towards women.
针对女性的肽市场很大。
I actually think in the long run, it's going to exceed, at least financially-
我实际上认为从长远来看，它会超过，至少在财务上-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
It will
它将
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the peptide market in men.
男性肽市场。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
I think it already has because soccer moms become affiliates.
我认为这已经是因为足球妈妈们成为了附属机构。
Like Amway and Herbalife was the big thing 20 years ago.
就像 20 年前安利和康宝莱一样。
Now soccer moms just do peptide affiliate issues.
现在足球妈妈只做肽附属问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Where are they getting their peptides?
他们从哪里获得肽？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Research grade websites.
研究级网站。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The gray market.
灰色市场。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah, all gray market.
是的，都是灰色市场。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
We already know that they're not recommended.
我们已经知道不推荐它们。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Nope.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But what about black market?
但黑市呢？
What would be considered black market?
什么会被视为黑市？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Black market is like you bought it directly from China.
黑市就像你直接从中国买的一样。
It's very cheap.
非常便宜。
A vial of BPC costs five bucks to make.
一瓶 BPC 的制作成本为 5 美元。
Now someone will sell it to you for $199 plus, depending on where.
现在有人会以 199 美元以上的价格卖给你，具体取决于地点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
But black market is either your friend in China on WhatsApp sent you a vial of BPC.
但黑市要么是您在中国的朋友在 WhatsApp 上给您发送了一瓶 BPC。
Do not do this.
不要这样做。
Or someone claims they synthesized it in their bathtub.
或者有人声称他们在浴缸中合成了它。
Just like underground gear.
就像地下装备一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Like all those steroids that were in the '90s and the 2000s.
就像 20 世纪 90 年代和 2000 年代的所有类固醇一样。
It's like, who knows what that is?
就像，谁知道那是什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's so interesting to me is, with steroids, it went from bodybuilding community to eventually hormone replacement.
对我来说最有趣的是，有了类固醇，它从健美界发展到最终的激素替代品。
It was like TRT or what I call TRT plus-
这就像 TRT 或者我所说的 TRT plus-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because a lot of guys are taking a lot more than that.
因为很多人拿的比这多得多。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some are taking less, most are taking more.
有些人拿的少，大多数人拿的多。
Some are taking what they're prescribed.
有些人正在服用处方药。
And then HRT has become very popular in women.
然后激素替代疗法（HRT）在女性中变得非常流行。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So now HRT is kind of like a thing that it's not like, "Oh my goodness, so-and-so's taking estrogen replacement or testosterone."
所以现在激素替代疗法有点像一种东西，而不是“哦，天哪，某某正在服用雌激素替代品或睾酮。”
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not a big deal.
这没什么大不了的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Nope.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Peptides is different because the big explosion in this came through the GLPs.
肽是不同的，因为它的大爆炸是通过 GLP 实现的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I would argue, I'd love your opinion on this, why so many people are now peptide curious is because people, because of the GLPs, are now-
我想说，我很想听听你对此的看法，为什么现在这么多人对肽感到好奇，是因为人们，因为 GLP，现在——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
also very comfortable injecting themselves.
自己注射也很舒服。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
That's absolutely correct.
这是绝对正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Five years ago, if you're like, "You're going to inject yourself," people are like, "Oh my God." Then they realize it's like this little-
五年前，如果你说，“你要给自己注射，”人们会说，“天哪。”然后他们意识到事情就像这样——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
tiny pin.
小针。
It hurts less than a Texan mosquito bite.
它比德克萨斯州的蚊子叮咬还轻。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People are doing it on their skin, and your girlfriend or wife is doing it-
人们在皮肤上做这件事，你的女朋友或妻子也在做——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as if it's nothing, and-
就好像什么都没有一样，而且——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
People like heroin addicts or diabetics.
人们喜欢海洛因成瘾者或糖尿病患者。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
You're not going intravenous.
你不会进行静脉注射。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So that changed everything.
所以这改变了一切。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Destigmatized, yes.
去污名化，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That destigmatized it.
这消除了它的污名化。
Now, to be fair, I want to touch on the question about adverse events again.
现在，公平地说，我想再次谈谈不良事件的问题。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We're going to spend a couple minutes talking about some incredible things that we've seen and heard about BPC 157 in terms of its positive effects.
我们将花几分钟的时间讨论一些我们所看到和听到的关于 BPC 157 的积极影响的令人难以置信的事情。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The concern I've always had was the angiogenesis, the growth of vasculature.
我一直担心的是血管生成，脉管系统的生长。
If somebody happens to have a little tumor or what will eventually become a tumor sitting on their liver or in their gut or in their pancreas, in theory, it could vascularize that tumor and cause it to grow more quickly.
如果某人碰巧有一个小肿瘤，或者最终会成为位于肝脏、肠道或胰腺上的肿瘤，理论上，它可能会使该肿瘤血管化并导致其生长得更快。
Is there any evidence that that's actually happened?
有任何证据表明这确实发生过吗？
I want to be very clear, I'm not loading this question-
我想说得很清楚，我不是在加载这个问题-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because it sounds like I'm kind of leading the witness-
因为听起来我有点在引导证人-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
when I say that.
当我这么说的时候。
I want to know.
我想知道。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm not currently taking BPC 157.
我目前没有服用 BPC 157。
Fortunately, I don't have an injury at the moment, so that would be the only condition which I'd take it, unless you tell me there are other reasons.
幸运的是，我现在没有受伤，所以这是我接受的唯一条件，除非你告诉我还有其他原因。
But I don't want to give myself-
但我不想把自己——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
That risk
那个风险
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that risk.
那种风险。
And I think most people don't want to give themselves that risk.
我认为大多数人不想让自己冒这个风险。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what is the realistic risk based on observations in humans or animals?
那么根据对人类或动物的观察，实际风险是多少？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Have we ever seen tumors grow more quickly?
我们见过肿瘤生长得更快吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
No. For example, most compounds, if they're carcinogenic, we will see that signature in the animals.
不会。例如，大多数化合物，如果它们具有致癌性，我们会在动物身上看到这种特征。
Like with Cardarine GW, was a drug that was very promising because it had diabetic implications for metabolism.
与 Cardarine GW 一样，它是一种非常有前途的药物，因为它对糖尿病的新陈代谢有影响。
Now it's a bodybuilder drug that they use for more cardio.
现在它是一种健美药物，用于加强有氧运动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What is this called?
这叫什么？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Cardarine GW.
卡达林 GW。
You might have seen it on-
你可能已经在上面看到过——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay
好的
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
the Reddits and-
Reddit 和-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay
好的
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
those forums, but people use it for-
这些论坛，但人们用它来-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I stay out of Reddit.
我远离 Reddit。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah, good.
是的，很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
It increases your cardio capacity.
它可以提高你的心肺功能。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Gotcha.
明白了。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
And so it's banned on the WADA list, of course.
当然，它在世界反兴奋剂机构的名单上是被禁止的。
But it had promise for treating diabetics because it changed metabolism in the liver.
但它有望治疗糖尿病，因为它改变了肝脏的新陈代谢。
It had a signal of cancer in animal data, so that whole thing was scrapped.
它在动物数据中显示出癌症信号，因此整个项目被废弃。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
There's no signal from the animal literature on BPC-157 for cancers.
动物文献中没有关于 BPC-157 治疗癌症的信号。
Now, all that literature comes from one group, so we have to be very careful.
现在，所有的文献都来自一个群体，所以我们必须非常小心。
It's that one Croatian group that tells you that it's the safest thing in the world.
克罗地亚的一个团体告诉你，这是世界上最安全的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All the animal data come from one group?
所有的动物数据都来自一组？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Almost all of it.
几乎全部。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Almost all of it.
几乎全部。
Very few, there's a couple of Chinese studies on BPC-157.
很少，中国有一些关于 BPC-157 的研究。
Now they're starting to become more interested here.
现在他们开始对这里变得更感兴趣。
I think there's a phase 2 trial on hamstrings happening here in the United States.
我认为美国正在对腿筋进行第二阶段试验。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Humans?
人类？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Phase 2?
第二阶段？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
We talked to a group, an orthopedic group somewhere on the East Coast.
我们与东海岸某个地方的一个骨科小组进行了交谈。
They wanted to do a BPC trial, so we consulted with them to kind of-
他们想要进行 BPC 试验，所以我们咨询了他们——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great
太棒了
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
yeah, so it's going to happen, especially if it moves to this category 1 list and people can be prescribed it.
是的，所以它将会发生，特别是如果它转移到这个类别 1 列表并且人们可以开处方它。
At least we can get a phase 4 trial where it's being prescribed, and we can see what's happening to the people as they're getting it.
至少我们可以进行第四阶段试验，并且我们可以看到人们在接受治疗时发生了什么。
And we can aggregate all this anecdata into one place-
我们可以将所有这些轶事汇总到一个地方 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm
嗯
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
ideally, and report on it.
理想情况下，并就此进行报告。
So that's something we're working on in the background.
这就是我们正在后台开展的工作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is that something you personally are involved in?
这是您个人参与的事情吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
We're working on aggregating all this data together-
我们正在努力将所有这些数据汇总在一起 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great
太棒了
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
into a NE1, N-E-1, dot study to put it all together, because all the anecdata exists, but put it together somewhere, at least we can see what the signals are.
进入 NE1，N-E-1，点研究将它们放在一起，因为所有轶事都存在，但将它们放在某个地方，至少我们可以看到信号是什么。
For example, on Reddit, you'll find signals of hematomas getting worse, which makes sense with the VEGF pathway.
例如，在 Reddit 上，您会发现血肿恶化的信号，这对于 VEGF 通路是有意义的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've heard this.
我听说过这个。
So a friend and physician who is, I would say, peptide curious/positive-
所以我想说，一位朋友和医生对肽感到好奇/积极-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
told me that when he takes BPC-157 for a shoulder or knee or whatever, that angiomas on his face, the sort of spider web angiomas-
告诉我，当他将 BPC-157 用于肩膀或膝盖或其他什么部位时，他脸上就会出现血管瘤，那种蜘蛛网状血管瘤-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
not the formal term, forgive me, derms, but- ...
不是正式术语，请原谅我，真皮，但是-...
get worse.
变得更糟。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's his personal observation.
这是他的个人观察。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think a lot of people don't want that.
我想很多人都不希望这样。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It makes sense, though, if it's promoting angiogenesis.
不过，如果它能促进血管生成，那就有意义了。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Based on the mechanism, it does make sense.
从机制上来看，它确实有道理。
Now, BPC-157 is not a uniform angiogenesis regulator.
目前，BPC-157 并不是一种统一的血管生成调节剂。
In some models, it decreases VEGF in a melanoma model cell line.
在某些模型中，它会降低黑色素瘤模型细胞系中的 VEGF。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it might be potentially anticancer, but we need to test it.
所以它可能具有潜在的抗癌作用，但我们需要对其进行测试。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
We don't know, which is what's really unfortunate about this compound.
我们不知道，这才是这种化合物真正不幸的地方。
It's very promising.
这是非常有前途的。
It has all this cool literature in animals, and we just don't know when it comes to humans.
它有关于动物的所有这些很酷的文献，但我们只是不知道什么时候涉及到人类。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just the one animal-
只有一种动物——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
study.
研究。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
And we'd love to know because if it does work, I could see a million use cases in the ICU that we could use BPC-157 to really help people out, especially during the critical illness, because in the ICU, people get gastric ulcers.
我们很想知道，因为如果它确实有效，我可以在 ICU 中看到一百万个用例，我们可以使用 BPC-157 来真正帮助人们摆脱困境，特别是在危重疾病期间，因为在 ICU 中，人们会患上胃溃疡。
If we knew that it would work, I would love to give them an infusion of BPC-157, and that's the future I could see happening, but we need data.
如果我们知道它会起作用，我很乐意给他们注射 BPC-157，这就是我可以预见的未来，但我们需要数据。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 for nearly 15 years now.
你们很多人都知道，我服用 AG1 已有近 15 年了。
I discovered it way back in 2012, long before I had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since.
我早在 2012 年就发现了它，那时我还没有播客，从那时起我就每天都在听它。
AG1 is, to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market.
据我所知，AG1 是市场上质量最高、最全面的基础营养补充剂。
It combines vitamins, minerals, prebiotics, probiotics, and adaptogens into a single scoop that's easy to drink and tastes great.
它将维生素、矿物质、益生元、益生菌和适应原结合到一勺中，易于饮用且味道极佳。
It's designed to support things like gut health, immune health, and overall energy, and it does so by helping to fill any gaps that you might have in your daily nutrition.
它旨在支持肠道健康、免疫健康和整体能量等，并通过帮助填补您日常营养中可能存在的任何缺口来实现这一目标。
And of course, we should all eat high-quality whole foods, but most of us are probably not getting enough prebiotics, vitamins, and minerals, and AG1 ensures that those gaps are filled.
当然，我们都应该吃高质量的天然食品，但我们大多数人可能没有摄入足够的益生元、维生素和矿物质，而 AG1 可确保填补这些空白。
I get asked all the time by people if they were to take just one supplement, what would my recommendation for that supplement be?
人们总是问我，如果他们只服用一种补充剂，我对该补充剂的建议是什么？
And my answer is always AG1 because it's just been so critical for supporting all aspects of my physical health, mental health, and performance by covering those nutritional, what we call foundational, bases.
我的答案始终是 AG1，因为它通过涵盖这些营养（我们称之为基础），对于支持我的身体健康、心理健康和表现的各个方面非常重要。
And I know from my own experience and from everyone I've heard that I recommended it to, that they simply feel much better in a number of different ways when they take it regularly.
从我自己的经验以及我听说过我推荐的每个人那里我知道，当他们定期服用它时，他们在许多不同的方面都会感觉好多了。
If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 以获得特别优惠。
For a limited time, AG1 is giving away a week's supply of AGZ, which is their sleep supplement, and a free bottle of vitamin D3K2 with your subscription.
在有限的时间内，AG1 将赠送一周的 AGZ（这是他们的睡眠补充剂），并在订阅后免费赠送一瓶维生素 D3K2。
AGZ is something that I helped design.
AGZ是我帮忙设计的。
It tastes great, and it's the only sleep supplement I take.
味道很好，也是我唯一服用的睡眠补充剂。
It has a collection of different things in it that has dramatically improved my sleep, both my slow-wave deep sleep and my rapid eye movement sleep, and I absolutely love it.
它里面有一系列不同的东西，极大地改善了我的睡眠，包括我的慢波深度睡眠和快速眼动睡眠，我非常喜欢它。
Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman to get a week's supply of AGZ and a bottle of D3K2 with your subscription.
再次强调，通过 Drinkag1.com/huberman 订阅即可获得一周的 AGZ 和一瓶 D3K2。
When is there going to be a formal randomized control trial on BPC, and who holds the patent?
什么时候会对 BPC 进行正式的随机对照试验？谁拥有该专利？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
There's multiple patents on BPC-157, depending on which salt they're in.
BPC-157 拥有多项专利，具体取决于它们所含的盐。
The patent has been passed around a couple of times through different places.
该专利已在不同地方多次传递。
Unfortunately, the company that had the patent under the Pliva got acquired by Teva.
不幸的是，拥有 Pliva 专利的公司被 Teva 收购了。
Teva is this generic pharmaceutical company, and they make Adderall.
梯瓦（Teva）是一家仿制药公司，他们生产阿得拉（Adderall）。
So they're making tons of money making Adderall.
所以他们通过生产阿得拉赚了很多钱。
They don't really care about BPC-157.
他们并不真正关心BPC-157。
So they have one of the patents.
所以他们拥有其中一项专利。
The other patent expires in 10 years.
另一项专利将于 10 年后到期。
I think Cycric still has it.
我认为西克里克仍然拥有它。
Dr. Cycric is the guy behind BPC-157.
Cycric 博士是 BPC-157 的幕后黑手。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He's in Croatia.
他在克罗地亚。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
He's in Croatia, yeah.
他在克罗地亚，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Would Teva sell the patent?
梯瓦会出售该专利吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
I'm sure they would if someone made an offer.
我确信如果有人提出要约，他们会的。
The problem is I don't see the purpose of even having the patent because you can add on one chain to the amino acid.
问题是我什至不明白拥有专利的目的，因为你可以在氨基酸的一条链上添加。
This is the problem with peptides.
这就是肽的问题。
This is what Eli Lilly's coming into when it comes to making Redda, is that patent laws for peptides kind of suck because you can add on one amino acid, you can modify one thing on it, and suddenly it's a different compound.
这就是礼来公司在制造 Redda 时遇到的问题，肽的专利法有点糟糕，因为你可以添加一种氨基酸，你可以修改它的一个东西，突然间它就变成了一种不同的化合物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is true for other pharmaceuticals.
对于其他药品也是如此。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm familiar with some of the ketamine and ibogaine trials.
我熟悉一些氯胺酮和伊博加因试验。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there's a company that took ibogaine and basically added a magnesium component to it-
有一家公司采用伊博加因并基本上添加了镁成分 -
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and you can make that a completely new drug.
你可以把它变成一种全新的药物。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm not saying that doesn't work.
我并不是说这不起作用。
I think they have a good rationale for doing that, but so this game of sort of protecting patents-
我认为他们这样做有充分的理由，但是这种保护专利的游戏-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
It's rough.
很粗糙。
And plus, millions of people have already used BPC-157 through research use only websites.
此外，数百万人已经通过仅供研究使用的网站使用过 BPC-157。
So I think millions is fair.
所以我认为数百万是公平的。
But now, how do you reel that back?
但现在，你如何把它收回来呢？
The cat's out of the bag.
秘密已经泄露了。
So there's no financial incentive to run the giant study, unless we crowdfund it as peptide-curious people.
因此，除非我们作为对肽感兴趣的人进行众筹，否则没有经济动力来开展这项大型研究。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Within the category of interesting anecdotal data-
在有趣的轶事数据类别中 -
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and in your role as a physician, I realize you're not suggesting these things, but you have a different picture of this stuff at the level of mechanism, and you're a clinician that works with truly FDA-approved drugs, and I want you to share with folks, I said it in the introduction, but internal medicine means that you spend your days what?
作为一名医生，我意识到你并不是在建议这些事情，但你在机制层面上对这些东西有不同的看法，而且你是一名使用真正经 FDA 批准的药物的临床医生，我希望你与人们分享，我在介绍中说过，但内科意味着你每天都在做什么？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
I'm on the wards of the hospital, admitting patients from the ER to the floor to the ICU, managing very complex disease ranging from a simple pneumonia to a coronary artery bypass patient.
我在医院的病房里，接收从急诊室到楼层再到重症监护室的患者，处理非常复杂的疾病，从简单的肺炎到冠状动脉搭桥患者。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
That whole spectrum.
整个范围。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
So that lens applied to this, as much as one can Would you say that of the reports that you've heard directly from people you trust, and from people who are not incentivized to say these things.
因此，这一镜头适用于这一点，您可以说，您直接从您信任的人那里听到的报告，以及从没有动机说这些事情的人那里听到的报告。
Like, "Oh, it made me happier.
就像，“哦，这让我更快乐。
Their skin looked better." All the things that one can find with an affiliate code attached to it.
他们的皮肤看起来更好了。”人们可以找到带有附属代码的所有东西。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Of those, what do you think are the most interesting, potentially valid claims?
其中，您认为最有趣、最有可能有效的主张是什么？
And I ask that because if we were going to fund a clinical trial-
我这么问是因为如果我们要资助一项临床试验-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
we'd need to pick an endpoint or a couple of endpoints.
我们需要选择一个或几个端点。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is it going to be recovery from injury?
伤病会痊愈吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If so, what kinds of injuries?
如果有的话，是什么类型的伤害？
Is it going to be the gastric stuff?
会不会是胃里的东西？
Is it mood interaction with dopamine receptors?
情绪与多巴胺受体相互作用吗？
I've heard so many different things.
我听过很多不同的事情。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
I know.
我知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If we had a chunk of money-
如果我们有一大笔钱——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and we're going to design a study and have someone else do it, so it's truly independent, what are the top three to five outcomes that you've heard that you have a good feeling there's, quote-unquote, "something there?"
我们将设计一项研究并让其他人来做，所以它是真正独立的，你听说过的让你感觉良好的前三到五个结果是什么，引用不引用，“那里有什么东西？”
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then we'd narrow it down to maybe one or two for sake of the study.
然后为了研究的目的，我们会将范围缩小到一两个。
What are those five?
那五个是什么？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
I would say to complete the phase one, phase two on the ulcerative colitis, do that phase three trial on proving that it has benefits for ulcerative colitis, and I don't think we'd need to use an enema.
我想说的是，完成溃疡性结肠炎的第一阶段、第二阶段，进行第三阶段试验，以证明它对溃疡性结肠炎有好处，我认为我们不需要使用灌肠。
We could probably have an encapsulated version that releases deeper into the intestines.
我们或许可以开发出一种可以释放到肠道更深处的封装版本。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so fix the gut.
所以修复肠道。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fix the ulcered gut.
修复溃疡的肠道。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
In conjunction with that, you could do a trial on GERD.
与此同时，您可以对 GERD 进行试验。
That's a simple condition.
这是一个简单的条件。
A lot of people have it, randomized to BPC 157 oral capsules versus pantoprazole.
很多人都患有此病，随机服用 BPC 157 口服胶囊与泮托拉唑。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, and you're basing this on the fact that you've seen and heard that people who have GERD-
好吧，你这是基于这样一个事实，即你所看到和听到的患有胃食管反流病的人——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
get better, feel better when they take it.
变得更好，服用后感觉更好。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
And it could be placebo.
它可能是安慰剂。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, what-
我的意思是，什么-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Anecdotally, when I travel, I have a bottle of BPC orally.
有趣的是，当我旅行时，我会口服一瓶 BPC。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Why is that?
这是为什么呢？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
I don't get traveler's diarrhea or-
我没有得旅行者腹泻或者-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm
嗯
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
when I eat exotic foods in random places, my friends all get sick, and I happen not to.
当我在随意的地方吃异国情调的食物时，我的朋友们都会生病，而我碰巧没有。
Anecdote, right?
轶事，对吧？
But that's interesting.
但这很有趣。
There seems to be some kind of gut protective effect, and that's what they noticed in the mice literature.
似乎有某种肠道保护作用，这就是他们在小鼠文献中注意到的。
They would have an offending agent into the gut, and they'd notice that there'd be protection deeper down in the gastric tract from that offending agent.
他们会将一种有害物质带入肠道，并且他们会注意到胃道深处会受到保护，免受这种有害物质的侵害。
Because if you think about it, the gut is the most vulnerable part of the body.
因为如果你仔细想想，肠道是身体最脆弱的部分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
It's open to the outside world.
它向外界开放。
It's a tube that runs through you.
它是一根穿过你的管子。
You can eat something, and it could completely destroy you.
你可以吃一些东西，它可能会彻底摧毁你。
So you have to have some kind of mechanisms, the prostaglandins, all these different hormones that are made, potentially BPC 157 as part of this robust armory that the gut has to protect itself from further injuries.
因此，必须有某种机制，前列腺素，所有这些不同的激素，可能是 BPC 157，作为肠道必须保护自己免受进一步伤害的强大军械库的一部分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
What are some things outside the gut or-
肠道外有哪些东西或者-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
indirect from the gut that are also compelling?
间接来自肠道的也很引人注目？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
So I would love to see some neuropsychiatric BPC studies when it comes to addictions.
所以我很想看到一些关于成瘾的神经精神 BPC 研究。
There's enough anecdata about people talking about addictions and like, "Hey, I don't really crave insert drug here." Not recommending anyone tries that out, but for alcohol or whatever it may be.
人们谈论成瘾的轶事已经够多了，比如“嘿，我真的不想在这里吸毒。”不建议任何人尝试，但酒精或其他可能的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you think that is likely due to the, we're speculating, but likely due to a interference with the reinforcing properties?
您认为这可能是由于我们推测的，但也可能是由于对增强性能的干扰？
Just like earlier you said people are getting less drunk.
就像你之前说的，人们喝醉的情况越来越少了。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So people are getting less high, becomes less reinforcing.
所以人们的高度越来越低，强化力越来越弱。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
It could be that.
可能是这样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or is it somehow touching the craving mechanisms themselves?
或者它是否以某种方式触及了渴望机制本身？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
It's probably touching the craving mechanism through the gut-brain axis, because I don't think it's going systemic either.
它可能通过肠脑轴触及渴望机制，因为我认为它也不是系统性的。
I think it's locally in the gut, shutting down the neurons from...
我认为它位于肠道局部，关闭神经元......
If you think about it, if BPC is what they claim it is, right, and that's a big if, that if you have a noxious agent going into your gut, your body has to have a mechanism to lock down, protect your vital organs, right?
如果你想一想，如果 BPC 真如他们所声称的那样，对吧，这是一个很大的假设，如果有毒物质进入你的肠道，你的身体必须有一种机制来锁定、保护你的重要器官，对吗？
So is BPC part of this giant transduction pathway to protect your vital organs, your brain, your heart, your kidneys from further damage?
那么，BPC 是这个巨大转导途径的一部分，可以保护您的重要器官、大脑、心脏、肾脏免受进一步损害吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We had Dr. Diego Bohorquez, I can never pronounce his last name, forgive me, Diego, who's out at Duke, who's really the world expert on these neuropod cells in the gut-
我们有迭戈·博霍尔克斯博士，我永远无法说出他的姓氏，请原谅我，迭戈，他在杜克大学工作，他确实是肠道中这些神经足细胞的世界专家-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that signal through the nodose ganglion, up the vagus, nodose ganglion, to either promote or suppress release of dopamine to make-
通过结状神经节发出信号，向上到达迷走神经，结状神经节，以促进或抑制多巴胺的释放，从而使-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you either approach or avoid certain foods.
您要么接近或避免某些食物。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very, very interesting.
非常非常有趣。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I would be more than happy to encourage his lab, even if-
我非常乐意鼓励他的实验室，即使——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
get funds for his lab to do something on this.
为他的实验室筹集资金来做这件事。
What are some other categories-
还有哪些其他类别-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of interesting effects that deserve careful study?
值得仔细研究的有趣效应？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
So we need to see what BPC does on the musculoskeletal system.
所以我们需要看看 BPC 对肌肉骨骼系统有什么作用。
That's what the hype is.
这就是炒作。
That's where everybody is going.
那就是每个人都要去的地方。
So as I look through what model I would look for, you'd want something that's not very vascularized but could be improved if the blood flow was good.
因此，当我查看我要寻找的模型时，您会想要一些血管化程度不高但如果血流良好则可以得到改善的模型。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Like a tendon injury, so perhaps a bicep, tricep tendon type of post-surgical outcome.
就像肌腱损伤一样，所以也许是二头肌、三头肌肌腱类型的术后结果。
So if you get your bicep tendon torn, you get a repair, you get BPC either intraoperatively or post-operatively, and you see if that person heals faster.
因此，如果您的二头肌肌腱撕裂，您需要进行修复，您可以在术中或术后进行 BPC，然后您可以查看该人是否愈合得更快。
Because the idea is not to use BPC.
因为我们的想法不是使用 BPC。
It's not going to magically reattach an ACL that's torn, right?
它不会神奇地重新连接撕裂的 ACL，对吗？
But can it further accelerate the healing from an ACL surgery, so you come back in six months rather than 12 months?
但它能否进一步加速 ACL 手术的愈合，让您在 6 个月而不是 12 个月内康复？
That's the big question.
这是个大问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
And that's why a lot of athletes are using BPC 157 for that use.
这就是为什么许多运动员使用 BPC 157 来实现这一目的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Has anyone ever done the one limb versus opposite limb control experiment?
有人做过单肢与对侧肢体对照实验吗？
I know that people take it orally or inject it systemically-
我知道人们口服或全身注射-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
like under the skin-
就像在皮肤下一样——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or into the muscle.
或进入肌肉。
It goes systemically in the bloodstream if you apply it that way.
如果你这样使用的话，它会全身进入血液。
If you can get to the injury site, sometimes people will inject locally.
如果你能到达受伤部位，有时人们会进行局部注射。
But it seems that the challenge is that let's say you have tendonitis in one elbow and tendonitis in the other elbow.
但似乎挑战在于，假设您的一个肘部患有肌腱炎，另一只肘部患有肌腱炎。
You could inject into your left elbow and not your right, but there's going to be systemic transfer.
您可以注射到左肘而不是右肘，但会发生全身转移。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
There is.
有。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's hard to do the-
所以很难做到——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
internal control experiment.
内控实验。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah, I know.
是的，我知道。
I've used BPC for one injury, and I've had results on a different injury.
我曾使用 BPC 治疗过一次损伤，并且对另一次损伤也有过治疗效果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Positive results?
积极的结果？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Positive results.
积极的结果。
I'm like, "Oh, interesting.
我想，“哦，有趣。
My shoulder feels better even though I was doing it for my elbow," or whatever it may be.
我的肩膀感觉好多了，尽管我是为了肘部做这件事，”或者其他什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This would be a good time for us to bracket what we're about to say by saying this is purely anecdotal-
现在是我们将要说的内容括起来的好时机，说这纯粹是轶事——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but filtered through, I consider myself a skeptic-
但经过过滤，我认为自己是一个怀疑论者——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
on many, many things, especially things I would put into my body.
关于很多很多的事情，尤其是我会放入身体的东西。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'll tell a story.
我会讲一个故事。
What's your favorite personal BPC story involving you and your body?
您最喜欢的涉及您和您的身体的个人 BPC 故事是什么？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I tore my tricep a few months ago.
几个月前我的三头肌撕裂了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Tore?
托雷？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Tore tricep lifting with people I shouldn't have been lifting with.
与我不应该一起举重的人一起撕裂三头肌举重。
They're much stronger than I was.
他们比我强多了。
Purple from here to here.
从这里到这里都是紫色的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oof.
噢。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
The pictures, I posted them on X.
这些照片，我发布在X上。
It's brutal.
太残酷了。
I'm like, "Oh, I'm going to have to have surgery.
我想，“哦，我必须要做手术了。
This sucks.
这太糟糕了。
I don't have time to have surgery." Because you're in a brace for three months.
我没有时间做手术。”因为你已经戴了三个月的牙套。
And I put BPC in locally.
我把BPC放在本地。
Don't try this at home.
不要在家尝试这个。
Not medical advice.
不是医疗建议。
But locally in the tissue spot with a couple of other peptides, and within three weeks, my PT's like, "What the hell are you doing?
但在局部组织点上有一些其他肽，三周内，我的 PT 就会说，“你到底在做什么？
This is healing so fast." Would I have healed that fast anyways?
这恢复得真快。”无论如何，我会痊愈得那么快吗？
I don't know, but that's typically a grade two tricep tear with purple arm from top to bottom.
我不知道，但这通常是二级三头肌撕裂，手臂从上到下呈紫色。
It wasn't grade three, because I could still extend my elbow.
还不到三年级，因为我的肘部还能伸展。
That's usually a three-month recovery, and to be back in three to four weeks was fantastic for me, which is why I'm so excited.
通常需要三个月的恢复时间，三到四个星期后恢复对我来说太棒了，这就是我如此兴奋的原因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What dosage were you injecting?
你注射的剂量是多少？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
A larger dose than people would typically-
比人们通常服用的剂量更大-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not micrograms.
不是微克。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You were up in the grams.
你的克数已经上升了。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Range.
范围。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
A lot higher.
高很多。
I think- Personally, and in some of our people, we've used bigger dosages.
我认为 - 就我个人而言，在我们的一些人中，我们使用了更大的剂量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
I think that's the problem, the low dosages.
我认为这就是问题所在，剂量低。
Even though that translates well from the mice data, for humans, I think the dose is way higher.
尽管从小鼠数据中可以很好地解释这一点，但对于人类来说，我认为剂量要高得多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
But people just go based on the dosage that would fit in the vial
但人们只是根据小瓶中适合的剂量进行选择
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
through a peptide sciences website, rather than what actually-- We don't know what the human dose is-
通过肽科学网站，而不是实际的-我们不知道人体剂量是多少-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
for BPC 157.
对于 BPC 157。
So there's a lot of work to do just to figure that out.
因此，为了解决这个问题，还有很多工作要做。
When we spoke to the orthopedic group, they're like, "Yeah, we're going to start with 250 micrograms." I'm like, "I don't know if you're going to see an effect at that low of a dose."
当我们与骨科团队交谈时，他们说：“是的，我们将从 250 微克开始。”我想，“我不知道这么低的剂量是否会看到效果。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
"You might need to raise it up." They're like, "That's what people do online."
“你可能需要把它举起来。”他们说，“这就是人们在网上做的事情。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
I'm like, "Yeah, but that's just because someone's peptide website says to do that.
我想，“是的，但这只是因为有人的肽网站说要这样做。
There's no data there." But tricep was back to normal.
那里没有数据。”但三头肌恢复正常。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing.
太棒了。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
That was an interesting BPC case.
这是一个有趣的 BPC 案例。
I've seen other injuries where BPC didn't really help-
我见过其他 BPC 没有真正帮助的伤害 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
much.
很多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I can't match your story.
好吧，我无法与你的故事相匹配。
That's a bigger result.
这是一个更大的结果。
I can just say that I had a bad trap neck pull where I couldn't turn my head, and I was like, "Oh, one of those." And I had some BPC, so it was only, I think, 200 micrograms, and just pinned it right into the-
我只能说，我的颈部拉伤很严重，我无法转动我的头，我当时想，“哦，其中之一。”我有一些 BPC，所以我想它只有 200 微克，然后就把它钉在——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that's street talk for injected.
这是关于注射的街头谈话。
Right into the upper trap-ish area.
直接进入上部陷阱区域。
Two days later, completely gone.
两天后，完全消失了。
Of course, I don't know what would've-
当然，我不知道会发生什么——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
happened had I just waited.
如果我只是等待，事情就会发生。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it seemed eerily fast.
但速度似乎快得有些诡异。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then I stopped taking it.
然后我停止服用它。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So there's a guy that...
所以有一个人，他...
And by the way, that was not gray market.
顺便说一句，那不是灰色市场。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was obtained through a doctor's prescription-
它是通过医生的处方获得的——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
from a compounding pharmacy.
来自复方药房。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Labeled BPC 157, not-
标记为 BPC 157，而非-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
PDA
掌上电脑
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
PDA.
掌上电脑。
Okay, those are anecdotes.
好吧，这些都是轶事。
I've also read, just to be fair, we should balance this out.
我也读过，公平地说，我们应该平衡这一点。
Certainly, on X, people can say anything they want.
当然，在X上，人们可以说任何他们想说的话。
People saying, "Oh, you know, I didn't feel well.
人们说：“哦，你知道，我感觉不舒服。
I stopped taking it." Okay, could be due to what it was dissolved in, could be due to their own unique response.
我停止服用它了。”好吧，可能是由于它被溶解的东西，可能是由于他们自己独特的反应。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could be due to bad sourcing-
可能是由于不良采购造成的 -
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
contamination.
污染。
So we don't know.
所以我们不知道。
But not everyone has a great result-
但并不是每个人都能取得好成绩——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
No. It's not magic
不，这不是魔法
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and some people have no result.
而有些人却没有结果。
Right.
正确的。
But many, many people report what can only be described as pretty astonishing positive results-
但很多很多人都报告了只能被描述为相当令人惊讶的积极结果——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that cannot be directly ascribed to the BPC because of the placebo effect, et cetera.
由于安慰剂效应等原因，不能直接归因于 BPC。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm not saying that to protect myself.
我这么说并不是为了保护自己。
I'm saying that so that people can couch this in how we got here-
我这么说是为了让人们能够理解我们是如何走到这一步的——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is because of stories like this.
就是因为这样的故事。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Well, there's two possibilities.
嗯，有两种可能性。
Either BPC is as amazing as we think it is, and it's unfortunate that millions of people don't have access to it.
要么 BPC 就如我们想象的那么神奇，但不幸的是数百万人无法接触到它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Or BPC is actually either ineffective or harmful to people, and millions of people are injecting it right now by buying it through online sources.
或者 BPC 实际上对人们要么无效要么有害，目前有数百万人通过在线渠道购买来注射它。
Both cases are very bad endpoints.
这两种情况都是非常糟糕的终点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
One is worse than the other.
一个比另一个更糟糕。
You can argue which one.
你可以争论哪一个。
But that's why we need this data, and we need people to push this forward to figure this out because we don't want these endpoints.
但这就是我们需要这些数据的原因，我们需要人们推动这一点来解决这个问题，因为我们不想要这些端点。
Because if in 20 years, we find out BPC is as good as Cicatrix Labs says it is, then, man, people are going to be pissed off.
因为如果 20 年后，我们发现 BPC 和 Cicatrix Labs 所说的一样好，那么，伙计，人们会生气的。
All the joint replacements and injuries that didn't heal, and all the athletes that maybe could've had a longer career, that would be very unfortunate.
所有关节置换术和未治愈的伤病，以及所有可能拥有更长职业生涯的运动员，这将是非常不幸的。
But if it's the opposite, and every 18-year-old kid in the gym will come up to me and is like, "I'm going to inject BPC." Like, "Where do you get it from?"
但如果情况恰恰相反，健身房里每个 18 岁的孩子都会走到我面前，说：“我要注射 BPC。”比如，“你从哪里得到它？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What for?
有何用？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
I'm like, "Dude, you're 18.
我说：“兄弟，你才18岁。
You have all the peptides you need in you." Like the parabiosis studies, these are young animals.
你体内拥有你需要的所有肽。”与联体共生研究一样，这些都是幼年动物。
I should take your blood and inject it into me, right?
我应该把你的血注射到我体内，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We had Tony Wyss-Coray on the podcast.
我们的播客中有托尼·怀斯·科雷 (Tony Wyss-Coray)。
Young blood is rich with these things.
年轻的血液里富含这些东西。
And no, we're not talking about harvesting blood from babies.
不，我们不是在谈论从婴儿身上采集血液。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Check out the Tony Wyss-Coray episode.
看看托尼·怀斯-科雷的剧集。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We'll provide a link.
我们将提供一个链接。
What you just said about young guys coming up to you in the gym and saying, "Should I be taking..." Or, "I'm already taking BPC," we could have a whole other conversation.
你刚才说年轻人在健身房里走到你面前说：“我应该服用……”或者“我已经在服用 BPC”，我们可以进行完全不同的对话。
Maybe another time, we will talk about testosterone and-
也许下次我们会谈论睾酮和-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
synthetics and things like that.
合成材料和类似的东西。
I see a lot of young guys taking-
我看到很多年轻人都在——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Everyone.
大家。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't know if it's everyone.
不知道是不是所有人都这样。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Sorry.
对不起。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't know if it's everyone.
不知道是不是所有人都这样。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Hyperbolic.
双曲线。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see a lot of-
我看到很多——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
It is bad, though
不过这很糟糕
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
many, many people are taking testosterone exogenously who truly don't need it-
很多很多人都在外源性服用睾酮，但其实他们并不需要它——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and potentially permanently shutting down their fertility or causing other issues.
并可能永久关闭他们的生育能力或导致其他问题。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
With the looks maxing trend, too.
也随着外观最大化的趋势。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
With the looks maxing trend.
随着外观最大化的趋势。
They're walking around with hammers, sledgehammers in the face, this kind of thing.
他们拿着锤子、大锤之类的东西四处走动。
I'm sure when I was in my 20s, people in their 50s were probably like, "What are these kids doing?" And it wasn't anything like this, but who knows?
我确信当我 20 多岁的时候，50 多岁的人可能会问，“这些孩子在做什么？”事情并非如此，但谁知道呢？
It was like baggy pants and- ...
就像宽松的裤子和-...
there was weird stuff going on, like hacky sacks and stuff.
发生了一些奇怪的事情，比如破烂的麻袋之类的东西。
Not me.
不是我。
But I'm confident that thanks to you, we've framed the history of this, which by the way, is fascinating-
但我相信，多亏了你们，我们才构建了这段历史，顺便说一句，这很有趣——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and where we are now very, very well.
我们现在的处境非常非常好。
So thank you.
所以谢谢你。
I have two questions.
我有两个问题。
Well, one comment and one question.
好吧，一条评论和一个问题。
The comment is, I think there's a third category of problematic outcome.
评论是，我认为存在第三类有问题的结果。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One you said is this thing works spectacularly well for a number of important problems, to solve important problems, and we don't find out about it because it wasn't looked at carefully.
你说这个东西对于许多重要的问题、解决重要的问题来说效果非常好，但我们没有发现它，因为没有仔细研究它。
The other is it's detrimental.
另一个是它是有害的。
There's the other one, which is we start hearing about adverse events-
还有另一个，那就是我们开始听到不良事件——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and it goes the way of the dodo, or it drifts back into who you know and is it the good stuff or not the good stuff because we don't actually know whether or not the adverse outcome was due to BPC itself-
它会像渡渡鸟一样，或者它会回到你认识的人身上，这是好东西还是坏东西，因为我们实际上不知道不良结果是否是由于 BPC 本身造成的 -
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to misuse of BPC, or to the factors that it's dissolved in or something like that.
BPC 的滥用，或 BPC 溶解的因素或类似因素。
And I think that's the most likely outcome-
我认为这是最有可能的结果——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
unless we get our arms around this.
除非我们能解决这个问题。
And that's where you could say the hormone replacement therapy field has actually enjoyed the fact that if a woman decides she's going to take progesterone or estrogen replacement therapy, perimenopausal or menopausal or something for PCOS or whatever, that wouldn't be what to take for PCOS, but you get the idea.
这就是你可以说激素替代疗法领域实际上很享受这样一个事实：如果一位女性决定接受黄体酮或雌激素替代疗法、围绝经期或更年期疗法或其他治疗多囊卵巢综合征或其他疾病的疗法，那不会是治疗多囊卵巢综合征的方法，但你明白了。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or a guy decides in his 40s or 50s or whatever it is, okay, he's going to go on TRT.
或者一个人在 40 多岁或 50 多岁时决定，好吧，他要继续接受 TRT。
He can do it carefully, she can do it carefully, and knows what adverse outcomes to look for.
他可以小心地做，她也可以仔细地做，并且知道要寻找什么不良结果。
No one's thinking, "Oh my god, the sesame oil that it's dissolved in-
没有人会想，“天哪，它溶解在的芝麻油——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is possibly causing these problems."
可能会导致这些问题。”
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Well, some people will be very particular on which oil their testosterone comes in.
嗯，有些人会非常挑剔他们的睾丸激素来自哪种油。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, that's in the gym community.
嗯，那是在健身房社区。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Totally with you.
完全和你在一起。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And where to inject and so forth.
以及在哪里注射等等。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But that aside, my concern is that it is kind of Wild West-ish.
但除此之外，我担心的是它有点狂野西部风格。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
It is.
这是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm not so concerned, I'll get in trouble for this, but whatever.
我并不那么担心，我会因此而惹上麻烦，但无论如何。
I'm not so concerned that these actual compounds are necessarily harming people.
我不太担心这些实际化合物一定会伤害人类。
I worry that the way they're arriving to people is harming them, and we're going to miss out on that first possibility that these are very useful.
我担心它们到达人们的方式正在伤害他们，我们将错过这些非常有用的第一个可能性。
And of course, I don't want anyone getting hurt.
当然，我不希望任何人受到伤害。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Same.
一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So here comes the question.
那么问题来了。
As a physician, I realize that you are more than peptide curious.
作为一名医生，我意识到您对肽的好奇不仅仅是肽。
You're very peptide friendly in your own life.
您在自己的生活中对肽非常友好。
If you have a patient Who has, just their gut is a mess, or they're dealing with post-surgical issues.
如果你有一个病人，只是他们的肠道一团糟，或者他们正在处理术后问题。
And you know that BPC from the right source is either going to be benign or could potentially help them.
而且您知道来自正确来源的 BPC 要么是良性的，要么可能对他们有帮助。
What kind of position does that put you in?
这会让你处于什么样的位置？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As an American board-certified physician.
作为美国委员会认证的医生。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Very uncomfortable position, because if I'm rounding on a patient in the wards of a hospital and like, "Hey, you should take BPC instead of your pantoprazole," I'll probably get my license revoked.
这是一个非常不舒服的姿势，因为如果我在医院病房里查访一名病人，然后说“嘿，你应该服用 BPC 而不是泮托拉唑”，我的执照可能会被吊销。
So not a good idea.
所以这不是一个好主意。
Don't do that.
不要那样做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What about in addition to?
除了还有什么？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
In addition to, so if they come see me in clinic, that might be a place where we can have that discussion.
此外，如果他们来诊所看我，那可能是我们可以进行讨论的地方。
We're going to see very shortly here what the FDA is going to tell us about BPC and all these other peptides and the legality of them.
我们很快就会看到 FDA 将告诉我们有关 BPC 和所有其他肽及其合法性的内容。
If they get moved to the category one list and then the states say, like, "Hey, the FDA said so, we're not going to care about this.
如果他们被转移到第一类清单，然后各州会说，“嘿，FDA 是这么说的，我们不会关心这个。
You can do what you want to do as a physician." And you counsel the patient, you have an honest discussion with the patient.
作为一名医生，你可以做你想做的事。”你为病人提供咨询，与病人进行诚实的讨论。
I think that's what it should be.
我认为应该如此。
It should be between the physician and the patient like, "Hey, there's this promising compound.
它应该在医生和患者之间进行，例如：“嘿，有这种有前途的化合物。
It's not FDA-approved.
它未经 FDA 批准。
We have minimal to no human data, but we have anecdata.
我们几乎没有人类数据，但我们有轶事。
Are you willing to try this on yourself?
你愿意自己尝试一下吗？
And we'll monitor you.
我们会监视你。
We'll have clear endpoints for that."
我们将为此制定明确的终点。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
That should be what this looks like-
看起来应该是这样的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay
好的
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
a frank discussion between a physician and patient.
医生和患者之间坦诚的讨论。
Now, if that patient has an adverse effect, they can go to a medical board and say, like, "Hey, Dr. So-and-so gave me BPC 157, and I had a bad effect." And I would be like, "Hey, you gave him a non-FDA-approved compound, A, for injectable.
现在，如果该患者出现不良反应，他们可以去医疗委员会说，“嘿，某某医生给了我 BPC 157，但我出现了不良反应。”我会说，“嘿，你给了他一种未经 FDA 批准的化合物 A，用于注射。
B, the problem is there's orals that are being sold as supplements now, like BPC 157 as an oral available supplement because it's not a medication.
B，问题是现在有口服补充剂作为补充剂出售，例如 BPC 157 作为口服补充剂，因为它不是药物。
It's never been approved as a medication in the United States." So what is BPC's legal status?
它在美国从未被批准作为药物。”那么BPC的法律地位如何呢？
Is it dietary available, therefore?
那么，它可以通过饮食来实现吗？
Because if you cut up an animal and ate its stomach, you'd probably get some BPC in there.
因为如果你切开动物并吃掉它的胃，你可能会在里面得到一些 BPC。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I can buy desiccated liver tablets.
嗯，我可以买干肝片。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
There you go.
就这样吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm eating livers.
我吃的是肝脏
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
There's tons of-
有大量的-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You can go buy liver at this one Michelin star-
你可以去这家米其林一星买肝——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
restaurant, not down this road-
餐厅，不在这条路上-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but a different road.
但却是一条不同的道路。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I mean, like Dr. Caviness identified many peptides in livers, like livigin and ovigin that you'd find in your desiccated liver supplement that you eat.
我的意思是，就像卡维尼斯博士在肝脏中发现了许多肽，例如您在食用的干燥肝脏补充剂中发现的 livigin 和 ovigin。
It's like the biggest distributors of peptides have been these organ meat companies because each organ has a signature peptide that comes out of it.
就像最大的肽分销商是这些器官肉类公司一样，因为每个器官都有一种从中产生的标志性肽。
And many-
还有很多——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do they get absorbed?
它们会被吸收吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are they bioavailable active?
它们具有生物利用度吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Dr. Caviness's work suggests that it is.
卡维尼斯博士的研究表明确实如此。
Dr. Vladimir Caviness is this Russian Soviet scientist that gives us epitalon and thymalin and pinealon and all these Russian peptides.
弗拉基米尔·卡维尼斯 (Vladimir Caviness) 博士是一位俄罗斯前苏联科学家，他为我们提供了 Epitalon、胸腺素、松果酮以及所有这些俄罗斯肽。
Di- and tripeptides can be orally available if they're the right shape and size.
如果形状和大小合适，二肽和三肽可以口服。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
They're not very well available, but they can be available.
它们不太可用，但可以使用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you won't necessarily get it from the organ isolate or from eating the organ.
因此，您不一定会从器官分离物或食用器官中获得它。
Like if you eat heart, probably very rich in L-carnitine.
就像如果你吃心，可能富含左旋肉碱。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can my body make good use of that?
我的身体能充分利用它吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
I mean, there's cardiogen, which is one of the heart peptides that was scantly studied in the late 2000s that may be orally bioavailable.
我的意思是，有一种心脏肽，它是一种心脏肽，在 2000 年代后期研究很少，但可能具有口服生物利用度。
The problem is no one's doing the work to figure that out.
问题是没有人致力于解决这个问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You painted this picture where, not you perhaps, but let's just say another physician has the awareness that BPC 157 might be useful to a patient of theirs that's dealing with a, they had like an ACL tear.
你画了这张图，也许不是你，但我们只能说另一位医生意识到 BPC 157 可能对他们正在处理 ACL 撕裂等问题的患者有用。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're not recovering very quickly.
他们恢复得不是很快。
Doctor says, "Listen, you're doing everything correctly.
医生说：“听着，你做的一切都是正确的。
There's this new category of stuff.
有这种新的东西。
We don't have a lot of data on it.
我们没有太多这方面的数据。
I'm not aware that there are any severe risks, but they could be there.
我不知道存在任何严重的风险，但它们可能存在。
So if you're willing to embrace those unknowns, you could take X number of micrograms or milligrams per day for two weeks and see how you feel." Patient says, "Okay, I'm willing to do that." The physician says, "Okay, you want to make sure that it's real, and you want to make sure that it's clean."
因此，如果您愿意接受这些未知因素，您可以每天服用 X 微克或毫克，持续两周，然后看看您的感觉如何。”病人说：“好吧，我愿意这么做。”医生说：“好吧，你要确保它是真的，而且你要确保它是干净的。”
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's no contaminants.
没有污染物。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If that physician says, "I can write you a script for it, and this compounding pharmacy will send it to you," and they're making money on it, a lot of people, well, the moment they hear that, they think, oh, well, they're totally incentivized to do this because they're going to get a cut.
如果那个医生说，“我可以给你写一个剧本，然后这家复方药房会把它寄给你，”他们就靠这个赚钱了，很多人，好吧，当他们听到这个的时候，他们会想，哦，好吧，他们完全有动力这样做，因为他们会得到分成。
But if we go back to the original pharma model, it is a little bit of a different situation, right?
但如果我们回到原来的制药模式，情况就有点不同了，对吧？
Because let's say Lilly charges $1,500 for a pen of some sort of GLP.
因为假设礼来公司对某种 GLP 笔的收费为 1,500 美元。
The physician who prescribes that, are they getting a cut of that 1,500?
开这个处方的医生，他们能从这 1,500 美元中分得一杯羹吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
They don't.
他们不这样做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They don't.
他们不这样做。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
But there are kickbacks and pharmaceutical incentives and pharma dinners.
但还有回扣、药品激励措施和药品晚宴。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Those are real.
那些是真实的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
It's flights to Hawaii for a conference.
这是飞往夏威夷参加会议的航班。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
So there are real incentives even though they're not getting paid directly.
因此，即使他们没有直接获得报酬，也有真正的激励措施。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah, there's always incentives in any kind of business, especially a business as big as pharmaceuticals.
是的，任何类型的企业总是有激励措施，尤其是像制药这样的大企业。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, physicians are already getting paid, so I'm not saying that...
嗯，医生已经拿到工资了，所以我不是说......
I mean, these are peripheral incentives.
我的意思是，这些都是外围激励措施。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Well, the pharmas also lobby a lot of the medical schools, and they-
好吧，制药公司也游说很多医学院，他们——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got you
得到你了
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
funding.
资金。
So there's a lot of-
所以有很多——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So there's a relationship there-
所以这里面有一个关系——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but it's not cold, hard cash.
但这并不是冰冷的现金。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
It's not as direct as the compounding pharmacies.
不像药店配药那么直接。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
But in a compounding pharmacy, now this physician, hypothetical physician-
但在一个复方药房里，现在这个医生，假想的医生——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
could say, "Hey, you know what?
可以说：“嘿，你知道吗？
You can get it from this compounding pharmacy."
你可以从这家复方药房买到。”
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"And it's going to be 500 bucks." The patient we've now established, because they've heard this podcast, has a right to say, "What are you paying for it versus what you're charging me?"
“这将是 500 美元。”我们现在建立的病人，因为他们听过这个播客，有权说，“你为此支付的费用与你向我收取的费用相比？”
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They might lie.
他们可能会撒谎。
They might tell you the truth.
他们可能会告诉你真相。
Or the physician could say, "You know what?
或者医生可以说：“你知道吗？
I'm not making a dime on this.
我不会在这上面赚一分钱。
It's just, I think it might be useful to you." That physician is protected or not protected if something negative happens to the patient?
只是，我觉得这可能对你有用。”如果患者发生不良事件，该医生是否受到保护？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
I don't-
我不-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If something happens, is somebody suing a compounding pharmacy, or they're suing their physician?
如果发生什么事，是有人起诉复方药房，还是他们起诉他们的医生？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
They're suing all three.
他们正在起诉这三人。
They're suing the physician, the compounding pharmacy, and anyone who recommended it, so.
他们正在起诉医生、复方药房以及任何推荐它的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's pretty scary.
这真是太可怕了。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
No malpractice provider is going to give you coverage for peptides, especially non-FDA-approved peptides, unless there's high risk malpractice providers that they'll cover you for that.
没有医疗事故提供者会给您承保肽，尤其是未经 FDA 批准的肽，除非有高风险医疗事故提供者为您提供承保。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's say somebody gets hurt taking one of the prescribed pharma GLPs, and they're pissed-
假设有人在服用一种处方药物 GLP 时受伤，他们很生气 -
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
That's-
那是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and they sue.
他们提起诉讼。
They sue their doctor, or they sue the pharma company?
他们起诉他们的医生，还是起诉制药公司？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Depending on who had the liability.
就看谁有责任。
So if the doctor didn't warn you that injecting 10 times a dose might cause pancreatitis, and you had pancreatitis, they can claim the doctor is at fault.
因此，如果医生没有警告您注射10次剂量可能会导致胰腺炎，而您患有胰腺炎，他们可以声称医生有过错。
If someone has deep pockets, they can go at Lilly and say, like, "Hey, Lilly, you didn't disclose this risk."
如果有人财力雄厚，他们可以对 Lilly 说，“嘿，Lilly，你没有披露这个风险。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think now people, thanks to you, are armed with enough information to be able to make really good decisions about whether or not to say, "Eh, waiting for those clinical trial results," or, "I'll stick my toe in the pond," or, "I'm going to continue to learn more, but I'm going to now learn more," thanks to you, genuinely, with a lot more understanding about how this stuff flows from website or from doctor to patient.
我认为现在，多亏了你们，人们有了足够的信息，能够做出真正好的决定，是否要说，“呃，等待那些临床试验结果”，或者，“我会坚持到底”，或者，“我将继续了解更多，但我现在要了解更多，”真诚地感谢你们，对这些东西如何从网站或从医生流向患者有了更多的了解。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's talk about pinealon.
我们来谈谈松果吧。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Pinealon is one that most people probably haven't heard of.
松果是大多数人可能没有听说过的一种。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'll just go on record saying I've tried it a few times or more.
我会公开表示我已经尝试过几次或更多次。
I don't take it regularly, but I tried it before sleep.
我不经常服用，但我在睡觉前尝试过。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If I take it at the beginning of the night, it reduces my deep slow-wave sleep And gives me far more REM across the night.
如果我在晚上开始服用它，它会减少我的深度慢波睡眠，并在整个晚上给我更多的快速眼动睡眠。
Not a great situation.
情况不太好。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great situation is if I go to sleep, get my usual ration of deep sleep.
最好的情况是，如果我去睡觉，就得到我通常的深度睡眠。
If I happen to wake up in the middle of the night to use the restroom once or so, not uncommon.
如果我碰巧在半夜醒来上厕所一次左右，这并不罕见。
If I do a very small injection of pinealon at that point, the one and a half hours of REM that I would get in the final hours of my sleep, now I'm getting three hours.
如果我当时注射少量的松果酮，我在睡眠的最后几个小时里会得到一个半小时的快速眼动睡眠，现在我会得到三个小时。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In the same amount of sleep.
在同样的睡眠时间下。
It's just a higher fraction of REM.
它只是 REM 的较高部分。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sometimes wake up feeling a little groggy, but it is a whole other life to get that much REM.
有时醒来时感觉有点昏昏沉沉，但获得如此多的快速眼动睡眠完全是另一回事。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't do it regularly.
我不经常这样做。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not...
这不是...
I would say maybe three times a month.
我想说也许一个月三次。
But here's the interesting thing.
但这是有趣的事情。
It improves my percentage of REM on all the other nights in between those three injections.
它提高了我在这三次注射之间的所有其他夜晚的快速眼动睡眠百分比。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I'm coming clean here.
所以我要在这里澄清。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Lingering effects.
挥之不去的影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very cool.
非常酷。
You're interested in pinealon for a whole other set of reasons.
您对松果仁感兴趣还有一系列其他原因。
But first of all, what is pinealon and where does it act?
但首先，什么是松果酮，它的作用在哪里？
Does it have a known receptor?
它有已知的受体吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
No known receptor.
没有已知的受体。
So pinealon is a tripeptide EDR discovered by the mention of Dr. Vladimir Kavinson.
所以松果酮是由 Vladimir Kavinson 博士提及发现的三肽 EDR。
He's a Soviet researcher that comes out of this Soviet-era research to make soldiers, astronauts, and pilots better.
他是一名苏联研究人员，从事苏联时代的研究，旨在提高士兵、宇航员和飞行员的水平。
There's concern that the US might be using lasers to shoot at soldiers.
人们担心美国可能会使用激光射击士兵。
So the Soviet Union tasks him with identifying peptides to defend soldiers, their eyes, and then their aging.
因此，苏联要求他识别肽来保护士兵、他们的眼睛以及他们的衰老。
Because what would happen is they'd be in a submarine for a few months, they'd be in a nuclear sub, and they'd come back to shore, and they'd be like these submariners, let's call them, would look 10, 20 years older.
因为会发生的情况是，他们会在潜艇里待几个月，他们会在核潜艇里，然后他们回到岸上，他们会像这些潜艇兵一样，让我们这样称呼他们，看起来会老10、20岁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Also happens to astronauts.
宇航员也会发生这种情况。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
So then the same thing as astronauts are coming back, they're aged.
所以就像宇航员回来一样，他们也变老了。
So Vladimir Kavinson's looking at this, and he's like, "Hey, there's got to be a solution for this." There's been literature about using extracts of other tissues, notably the pineal gland and the thymus, from late 1800s till this 1970s point that we're starting our story.
所以弗拉基米尔·卡文森（Vladimir Kavinson）正在研究这个问题，他说：“嘿，必须有一个解决方案。”从 1800 年代末到 20 世纪 70 年代，有文献报道过使用其他组织的提取物，尤其是松果体和胸腺，直到 20 世纪 70 年代，我们的故事才刚刚开始。
And he starts grounding up these extracts and injecting it into these people, and then undoing a lot of this aging effects through pineal extracts and thymus extracts.
他开始将这些提取物磨碎并将其注射到这些人体内，然后通过松果体提取物和胸腺提取物消除许多衰老效应。
Because what do these soldiers have?
因为这些士兵有什么？
They had very bad circadian rhythmicity, so they couldn't sleep properly.
他们的昼夜节律很差，因此无法正常入睡。
They had terrible immunity.
他们的免疫力很差。
They'd get sick often.
他们会经常生病。
They'd have autoimmune problems, all these conditions that come with it.
他们会有自身免疫问题，以及随之而来的所有这些病症。
And then they were able to undo this using these organ extracts.
然后他们能够使用这些器官提取物来解决这个问题。
So Vladimir Kavinson takes it a step further.
因此，弗拉基米尔·卡文森 (Vladimir Kavinson) 更进一步。
He looks like, "Hey, what's causing this effect in these tissues?" People have been injecting pineal glands in different research models or taking out pineal glands from rats from the 1800s onwards.
他看起来像是在说：“嘿，是什么在这些组织中造成了这种影响？”从 1800 年代起，人们就开始在不同的研究模型中注射松果体，或者从老鼠身上取出松果体。
He finds peptides in these extracts.
他在这些提取物中发现了肽。
He's like, "Huh, I wonder if these effects are from the peptides and not from the gland itself." So then he sequences from the pineal gland, epithalon, and from the thymus gland, a couple different peptides, thyronum, thymogen, christogen, that you'll be hearing about in the next few years, that on their own do a lot of the effects that the whole extract would do.
他说，“嗯，我想知道这些作用是否来自肽而不是腺体本身。”然后他从松果体、上皮腺和胸腺中测序了几种不同的肽，甲状腺素、胸腺原、克里斯托原，您将在接下来的几年中听到这些肽，它们本身就具有整个提取物所具有的许多作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now, you're talking about epithalon, but pinealon and epithalon-
现在，你谈论的是 epithalon，但是 pinealon 和 epithalon-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Is not from the pineal gland.
不是来自松果体。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is not from the pineal gland.
不是来自松果体。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Even though everyone-
尽管大家——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
No, I think it's called that because there's, as far as I understand, please correct me if I'm wrong-
不，我认为这样称呼是因为，据我所知，如果我错了，请纠正我-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
there are animal data suggesting that pinealon can help either regenerate or enhance the general functioning of pinealocytes.
有动物数据表明，松果体可以帮助再生或增强松果体细胞的一般功能。
So it's having an effect on the pineal when cult- Well, like you take cultured pineal glands-
所以当邪教时它会对松果体产生影响-嗯，就像你培养的松果体一样-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that little pea-sized gland, you put it in a dish, and you dissociate the cells or keep it as a little pea size thing.
那个豌豆大小的小腺体，你把它放在一个培养皿中，然后分离细胞或将其保留为豌豆大小的小东西。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then you give it pinealon, and it seems to improve the timing and perhaps even the amount of melatonin output from the pineal, these kinds of things.
然后你给它松果体，它似乎可以改善时间，甚至可能改善松果体分泌褪黑激素的量，诸如此类。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
So epithalon does that.
所以 Epithalon 就是这么做的。
So that's a big confusion.
所以这是一个很大的混乱。
I don't know why he named them the way he named them.
我不知道他为什么这样命名它们。
If anyone knows, please let us know.
如果有人知道，请告诉我们。
But epithalon is from the pineal gland.
但上皮隆来自松果体。
Pinealon comes from a ground-up brain extract called cortexin.
松果酮来自一种叫做皮质素的研磨大脑提取物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And brain has pineal in it.
大脑里有松果体。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah, but it was the cortex specifically, not the subcortical-
是的，但具体是皮质，而不是皮质下-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
Okay
好的
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
regions.
地区。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
So-
所以——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
So he, specifically not the subcortical regions.
所以他，特别不是皮质下区域。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
That's reassuring.
这让人放心。
Yep.
是的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
So Vladimir Kavinson identifies, he makes a drug in Russia, it's called epithalamin, which is the pineal gland extract, and had great effect on circadian rhythmicity and melatonin production.
弗拉基米尔·卡文森（Vladimir Kavinson）指出，他在俄罗斯生产一种药物，叫做上皮丘脑素，是松果体提取物，对昼夜节律和褪黑激素的产生有很大影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, that makes sense because it's rich with melatonin.
嗯，这是有道理的，因为它富含褪黑激素。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
There you go.
就这样吧。
But al-
但阿尔-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's basically giving people melatonin.
它基本上是给人们褪黑激素。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
But also you upregulate the enzyme that creates melatonin from serotonin to N-acetyl serotonin to melatonin.
而且你也会上调产生褪黑激素的酶，从血清素到 N-乙酰血清素再到褪黑激素。
So when he gave it to young monkeys, the monkeys had no effect.
所以当他给小猴子服用时，猴子没有任何效果。
But he gave it to aged monkeys that have decreased melatonin, and from puberty onwards, your melatonin levels dramatically decrease.
但他把它给了褪黑激素减少的老年猴子，从青春期开始，褪黑激素水平急剧下降。
He was able to restore melatonin production in these aged animals, and eventually replicated it on humans.
他能够恢复这些老年动物体内褪黑激素的产生，并最终将其复制到人类身上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I want to talk about thymus, because it's-
我想谈谈胸腺，因为它是-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
fascinating, and you're truly versed in this.
令人着迷，而且你真的很精通这一点。
But before we do that-
但在我们这样做之前——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Figure it out
弄清楚
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
so pinealon comes from the cortex, not-
所以松果体来自皮质，而不是——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the pineal.
松果体。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's annoying.
这很烦人。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes, very annoying.
是的，非常烦人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe we just rename it today.
也许我们今天只是重命名它。
I'll let you do the renaming.
我会让你重命名。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
We'll call it EDR.
我们将其称为 EDR。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
EDR.
EDR。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
That's the three amino acid sequence.
这就是三个氨基酸序列。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
We'll call it EDR so people don't get confused.
我们将其称为 EDR，这样人们就不会感到困惑。
What are some of the known-
有哪些已知的——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
effects?
影响？
Or am I just imagining this REM increase?
或者我只是想象这种快速眼动睡眠的增加？
Because I can't change what's happening to me during sleep.
因为我无法改变睡眠期间发生在我身上的事情。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That would be an amazing placebo effect.
这将是一个惊人的安慰剂效应。
And the reason I say amazing is there are many things that one can do to improve the amount of slow-wave deep sleep.
我之所以说令人惊奇，是因为人们可以做很多事情来改善慢波深度睡眠的时间。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not eating too close to bedtime-
临睡前不要吃东西
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
doing some exercise early in the day, etc. Very hard to increase REM except by heating your sleep environment in the last third of your night, and maybe some alpha GPC in the late day can bump it up a bit.
早上做一些运动等。除非在晚上的最后三分之一时间加热你的睡眠环境，否则很难增加快速眼动睡眠，也许在晚些时候一些阿尔法 GPC 可以稍微提高一点。
Or you can REM deprive yourself.
或者你可以剥夺自己的快速眼动睡眠。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or you can smoke cannabis for 10 years, then quit, and then you'll get a lot of REM because you got no REM for 10 years.
或者你可以吸大麻10年，然后戒掉，然后你会得到很多快速眼动睡眠，因为你已经有10年没有快速眼动睡眠了。
Do not recommend that protocol.
不推荐该协议。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But for me, it was just striking.
但对我来说，这只是惊人的。
So why would EDR-
那么为什么 EDR-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Tripeptide with no receptor
无受体的三肽
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
Right.
对。
Previously called pinealon, but- ...
以前称为松果树，但是-...
from here forward, EDR, why would that have this effect on REM sleep?
从现在开始，EDR，为什么会对快速眼动睡眠产生这种影响？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep, and I actually searched through all of the literature from Kavinson.
是的，我实际上搜索了卡文森的所有文献。
He never mentions REM sleep once in his studies.
他在研究中从未提及过快速眼动睡眠。
He studied pinealon quite extensively on different neuronal tissue extracts, animal studies, even in athletes, and never mentions the REM sleep.
他对松果素进行了广泛的研究，包括不同的神经组织提取物、动物研究，甚至是运动员的研究，但从未提及快速眼动睡眠。
They didn't have WHOOPS in the 1970s in the Soviet Union.
20 世纪 70 年代的苏联并没有 WHOOPS。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What?
什么？
They didn't have an H sleep?
他们没有睡H觉吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're kidding me.
你在开玩笑吧。
No, that's right.
不，没错。
Totally.
完全。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So they didn't have sleep trackers in the 1970s-
所以 20 世纪 70 年代他们还没有睡眠追踪器——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
when it came to these, so there was no reports on that.
说到这些，所以没有相关报道。
But what seems to be happening, let's see, what is this pinealon, this EDR?
但似乎发生了什么，让我们看看，这个松果、这个EDR是什么？
It's a tripeptide that meets the groove of the DNA of different key regions and helps the promoter region be exposed so then that DNA transduction can happen, translation, transcription.
它是一种三肽，能够满足DNA不同关键区域的凹槽，帮助启动子区域暴露出来，从而进行DNA转导、翻译、转录。
So you get-
所以你得到-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's turning on genetic programs.
所以它正在启动基因程序。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's acting a little bit like a transcription factor.
它的作用有点像转录因子。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Almost like that, or maybe assisting transcription factors in accessing the DNA in the right places.
几乎就是这样，或者可能协助转录因子在正确的位置访问 DNA。
So pinealon, in one sentence, it's leading to better brain metabolism through modulating all of these different pathways.
因此，松果酮，用一句话来说，它通过调节所有这些不同的途径来改善大脑的新陈代谢。
For example, GDF11, SOD1, SOD2, irisin, PPAR alpha, PPAR gamma.
例如，GDF11、SOD1、SOD2、鸢尾素、PPAR α、PPAR γ。
So what seems to be happening, so he made pinealon as a anti-stress, cognitive performance compound.
所以似乎发生了什么事，所以他将松果香制成了一种抗压力、提高认知能力的化合物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
And it was available orally in Kazakhstan to all the soldiers.
在哈萨克斯坦，所有士兵都可以口头获得该信息。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I have an idea that I'm taking it before sleep-
所以我有一个想法，我在睡觉前服用它-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I should be taking it in the morning.
我应该在早上服用。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
So if you take a high enough dose, there is sedation from it.
因此，如果您服用足够高的剂量，就会产生镇静作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
But if you take it in the morning or pre-HIT workout, you get quite an interesting effect.
但如果你在早上或训练前服用它，你会得到非常有趣的效果。
So he studied this compound on athletes, and he would have them do their training session, go to exhaustion, and then do a test afterwards.
因此，他在运动员身上研究了这种化合物，他会让他们进行训练，达到力竭状态，然后进行测试。
And there's two groups, pinealon and the placebo.
有两组：松果酮和安慰剂。
The pinealon group could keep their performance up despite being maximum exhausted from their training.
松果组尽管在训练中已经筋疲力尽，但仍能保持良好的表现。
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I feel like such a dummy.
我感觉自己像个傻瓜。
Here I am having these elaborate dreams I don't really remember-
我在这里做了这些我不太记得的复杂的梦——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or care about, and when I could be actually thinking better during the daytime.
或关心，以及白天我什么时候可以真正思考得更好。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So a lot of people report less brain fog, better thinking.
因此，很多人表示脑雾更少，思维能力更好。
There's a friend that has a nine-figure company, he has all of his employees on pinealon.
有一个朋友拥有一家九位数的公司，他的所有员工都在使用pinealon。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're taking it in the morning?
他们是早上拿的吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
In the morning.
早上。
Or at night, depending on-
或者在晚上，取决于——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you know the dosages?
你知道剂量吗？
Not that we're recommending it
并不是说我们推荐它
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
Orally, people will take anywhere between half a milligram, up to three milligrams, is where people settle in.
口服时，人们会服用半毫克到三毫克之间的剂量，这是人们适应的范围。
The Kavinson ones that come from Russia are 200 micrograms.
来自俄罗斯的Kavinson是200微克。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some people are injecting it.
有些人正在注射它。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Some people are injecting it.
有些人正在注射它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It goes systemic.
它是系统性的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
It goes systemic.
它是系统性的。
It's orally available through these latin pep transporters.
它可以通过这些拉丁胡椒转运蛋白口服。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Crosses the blood-brain barrier?
能穿过血脑屏障吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Most likely, yes.
最有可能的是，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, because it's coming from cortex, but-
好吧，因为它来自皮质，但是-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
otherwise, the way you're describing it, no one's infusing it into the brain.
否则，按照你所描述的方式，没有人会将其注入大脑。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Nope.
不。
So we're assuming it's small enough, it's a tripeptide, to cross the blood-brain barrier.
所以我们假设它足够小，它是一种三肽，可以穿过血脑屏障。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Have you tried it?
你尝试过吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
I took some last night, but...
我昨晚吃了一些，但是...
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
At night?
晚上？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah, so I will take larger dosages, if I want to get good sleep.
是的，所以如果我想睡个好觉，我会服用更大的剂量。
I'll describe as 8K REM.
我将其描述为 8K REM。
Some people, it will cause them to have a little bit of awakening, at first.
有些人，一开始会让他有一点点的觉醒。
That may be why your deep sleep is going away.
这可能就是你的深度睡眠消失的原因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'll say this.
我就这么说吧。
If I take half of what was recommended-
如果我服用推荐的一半-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I'm great.
我很棒。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes, yes, yes.
是的，是的，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I'm very sensitive to everything.
但我对一切都非常敏感。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just sensitive.
只是敏感而已。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If I take what was recommended, I fall very deeply asleep, I have elaborate dreams, and I wake up.
如果我服用推荐的药物，我就会睡得很沉，做梦，然后醒来。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I couldn't tell if that was a disruption in sleep architecture or da da da da.
我无法判断这是睡眠结构的破坏还是哒哒哒哒。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I just found, and granted, I'm only doing this three times per month-
我刚刚发现，并且理所当然，我每个月只这样做三次-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
maximum.
最大。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I often forget, and then I go-
我经常忘记，然后我就——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
months and months and I was like, "Oh, maybe I'll take a little pinealon," and I'm like-
几个月又几个月，我就想，“哦，也许我会吃一点松果，”然后我就像——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
"Whoa, this is wild." And then I stop taking it.
“哇哦，这太疯狂了。”然后我停止服用它。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because I don't know enough about it.
因为我对此还不够了解。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now, I know it's cleanly sourced because I trust the compounding pharmacy-
现在，我知道它的来源干净，因为我信任复方药房-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's coming from, but I should ask, are there any known risks of EDR?
它来自，但我应该问，EDR 是否有任何已知的风险？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
So far, nothing in the Russian literature, so big caveat, it's Russian literature.
到目前为止，俄罗斯文学中还没有任何内容，所以需要注意的是，这是俄罗斯文学。
It's not gold standard American research that we love here.
我们在这里喜欢的并不是黄金标准的美国研究。
So there's nothing that's come up as a clear sign because what it seems, the big theory of Kavinson, is that when you're younger, you make a lot of these peptides naturally-
所以没有任何明显的迹象出现，因为卡文森的大理论似乎是，当你年轻时，你会自然地产生很多这些肽-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
these di-, tri- and tetrapeptides, and as you age, they go down in function and quantity.
这些二肽、三肽和四肽，随着年龄的增长，它们的功能和数量都会下降。
And by replenishing these peptides, you're restoring some aspect of youthfulness.
通过补充这些肽，您可以恢复某些方面的青春。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Something similar happens in America with GHK copper, which is another tripeptide that's technically like the collagen regulator.
在美国，GHK 铜也发生了类似的情况，这是另一种三肽，技术上类似于胶原蛋白调节剂。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
So pinealon is the brain regulator-
所以松果素是大脑调节剂——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We're going to talk about this
我们要谈谈这个
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
and GHK copper is the collagen regulator.
GHK铜是胶原蛋白调节剂。
But so far, the side effects we've noticed, we have probably the biggest anecdotal compilation of N equals one.
但到目前为止，我们注意到的副作用是，我们可能有 N 等于 1 的最大轶事汇编。
Every day I wake up, someone texts me like, "Hey, pinealon did this to me." Some people have a little bit of drop in blood sugar because it activates PPAR alpha, PPAR gamma, so it'll have positive metabolic effects, so that's something to keep an eye on.
每天我醒来，都会有人给我发短信，“嘿，松果树对我做了这种事。”有些人的血糖会稍微下降，因为它会激活 PPAR α、PPAR γ，因此会对代谢产生积极的影响，因此需要密切关注。
Some people even had their A1Cs drop.
有些人的 A1C 甚至下降了。
So nothing-
所以什么也没有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So hypoglycemics and other people with blood sugar issues-
因此，低血糖患者和其他有血糖问题的人-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
take extra caution.
请格外小心。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes, and then very vivid dreams.
是的，然后是非常生动的梦。
For some people, that could be disheartening if they have nightmares or something like that.
对于某些人来说，如果他们做噩梦或类似的事情，可能会感到沮丧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
But very, very vivid dreams, as a result of pinealon, especially the color and the quality of the dreams is very different than you'd normally expect.
但是由于松果香，梦境非常非常生动，尤其是梦境的颜色和质量与您通常预期的非常不同。
What seems to be happening-
似乎正在发生什么——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That tracks.
那个轨迹。
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
is just like psychedelics change the redox state of the brain, pinealon's doing something similar where you're getting more alertness during the day.
就像致幻剂改变大脑的氧化还原状态一样，松果酮也能起到类似的作用，让你在白天变得更加警觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
You don't wake up with as much brain fog, at least anecdotally.
你醒来时不会有那么多脑雾，至少从传闻来看是这样。
You get better performance during high-intensity interval training.
您在高强度间歇训练中可以获得更好的表现。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
And then you get more REM sleep at night-
然后你晚上就会得到更多的快速眼动睡眠——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
because the neurons are in a better oxidative state, thanks to the PPAR alpha, PPAR gamma, irisin, all these different pathways that it's modulating-
因为神经元处于更好的氧化状态，这要归功于 PPAR α、PPAR γ、鸢尾素以及它所调节的所有这些不同的途径——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
with no clear one receptor that it's doing it through.
没有明确的一种受体是它通过的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Function.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 Function。
Function provides over 160 advanced lab tests to give you a clear snapshot of your bodily health.
功能提供超过 160 项高级实验室测试，让您清晰了解自己的身体健康状况。
This snapshot gives you insights into your heart health, your hormone health, autoimmune function, nutrient levels, and much more.
通过此快照，您可以深入了解心脏健康状况、激素健康状况、自身免疫功能、营养水平等。
They've also recently added access to advanced MRI and CT scans.
他们最近还增加了先进的 MRI 和 CT 扫描的访问权限。
Function not only provides testing of over 160 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, it also analyzes these results and provides recommendations for improving your health from top doctors.
Function 不仅提供对您身心健康至关重要的 160 多种生物标记物的测试，还分析这些结果并提供顶级医生改善您健康的建议。
For example, in a recent test with Function, I learned that some of my blood lipids were slightly out of range.
例如，在最近的一次 Function 测试中，我发现我的一些血脂稍微超出了范围。
As a result, I decided to start supplementing with nattokinase, which can naturally help reduce LDL cholesterol.
因此，我决定开始补充纳豆激酶，它自然可以帮助降低低密度脂蛋白胆固醇。
And it did.
确实如此。
In a follow-up test, I could confirm that this strategy worked.
在后续测试中，我可以确认这个策略是有效的。
My blood lipids are now back exactly where I want them Comprehensive lab testing of the sort that Function offers is just so important for health.
我的血脂现在完全回到了我想要的水平。功能提供的全面实验室测试对于健康非常重要。
How else are you going to know what's going on under the hood?
否则你怎么知道幕后发生了什么？
And while I've been doing blood work for years, it used to be time-consuming, complicated, and expensive.
虽然我从事血液检查已有多年，但它过去非常耗时、复杂且昂贵。
In fact, I used to spend thousands of dollars per year trying to get this kind of data, and the data, frankly, were not all that good.
事实上，我曾经每年花费数千美元试图获得此类数据，但坦率地说，这些数据并不那么好。
But now with Function, it's extremely easy and affordable.
但现在有了 Function，它变得非常简单且经济实惠。
A Function membership is only a dollar a day, $365 a year.
Function 会员每天仅需 1 美元，每年 365 美元。
And if you think about the information it provides and the health challenges it helps you avoid and the proactive things that it can do for you to enhance your health, I truly look at it as a savings.
如果您考虑一下它提供的信息、它可以帮助您避免的健康挑战以及它可以为您增强健康所做的积极主动的事情，我确实将其视为一种节省。
To learn more, visit functionhealth.com/huberman and use the code Huberman for a $50 credit towards your membership.
要了解更多信息，请访问 functionhealth.com/huberman 并使用代码 Huberman 获得 50 美元的会员积分。
Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman.
同样，这是 functionhealth.com/huberman。
What about epitalon, which turns out comes from the pineal?
那么 Epitalon 呢？原来它来自松果体？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd love your thoughts on this.
我很想听听你对此的想法。
I've heard, and I thought it was complete nonsense when I first heard it, that the pineal becomes calcified as people age.
我听说过，当我第一次听到这个说法时，我认为这完全是无稽之谈，松果体会随着人年龄的增长而钙化。
The reason I thought it was nonsense is I used to co-teach neuroanatomy when I was at UCSD, before moving my lab to Stanford, with a guy named Harvey Carton.
我之所以认为这是无稽之谈，是因为我在加州大学圣地亚哥分校（UCSD）时曾与一个名叫哈维·卡顿（Harvey Carton）的人共同教授神经解剖学，然后将我的实验室搬到斯坦福大学。
You guys can look him up.
大家可以去查一下他。
Unfortunately, he passed away.
不幸的是，他去世了。
He was in his late 80s, and he had this incredible career as, I think, one of the greatest neuroanatomists of the last 100 years.
他已经 80 多岁了，我认为他是过去 100 年来最伟大的神经解剖学家之一，有着令人难以置信的职业生涯。
That's a good category to be in because we have Cajal, who discovered everything, basically, and then the rest of the neuroscientists are just tinkering around with what he predicted.
这是一个很好的类别，因为我们有卡哈尔，他基本上发现了一切，然后其他神经科学家只是在修改他的预测。
And then a few other neuroanatomists like Ted Jones, et cetera, but he's like the neuroanatomist of my generation.
然后还有其他一些神经解剖学家，如特德·琼斯等，但他就像我们这一代的神经解剖学家。
And I asked him about this calcification thing because he had looked at the brains of so many different species, including humans.
我问他关于钙化的事情，因为他观察过许多不同物种的大脑，包括人类。
He was also an MD, by the way.
顺便说一句，他也是一名医学博士。
And he goes, "Yeah, I don't know whether or not this calcification thing is real."
他说：“是的，我不知道钙化现象是否真实。”
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And he kind of brushed it aside, and I thought, well, Harvey doesn't take it seriously, so I'm not going to take it seriously.
他有点把它放在一边，我想，好吧，哈维并没有认真对待它，所以我不会认真对待它。
But even though he was absolutely right about many things, I think he might have missed that one.
但即使他在很多事情上都是绝对正确的，我认为他可能错过了这一点。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because when I go to the literature now, it's a little bit tough because the cadavers that you looked at in medical school, not all of them are processed on the same timeline.
因为当我现在查阅文献时，这有点困难，因为你在医学院看到的尸体，并不是所有的尸体都是在同一时间线上处理的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thankfully, it's not a controlled science.
值得庆幸的是，这不是一门受控科学。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
These are people that generously donate their bodies to science.
这些人慷慨地将自己的身体捐献给科学。
Does our pineal calcify?
我们的松果体会钙化吗？
Even if it does, does that somehow inhibit its ability to communicate with our other tissues?
即使确实如此，这是否会以某种方式抑制其与我们其他组织沟通的能力？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
It's a big kind of debatable thing in the pineal research.
这在松果体研究中是一个颇有争议的事情。
If you look at the pineal gland Wikipedia, it's very underdeveloped, let's say.
如果您查看松果体维基百科，可以说它非常不发达。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Because it's kind of woo-woo.
因为这有点呜呜。
When you think of pineal gland, you think of someone who's going to tell you-
当你想到松果体时，你就会想到有人会告诉你——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not every neuroscientist chooses to work on the pineal gland.
并非每个神经科学家都选择研究松果体。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They should, but it's not a very sexy-
他们应该这样做，但这不是很性感-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
It sounds like someone's going to sell you crystals or something about your-
听起来好像有人要卖给你水晶或者一些关于你的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
It's not very sexy.
这不是很性感。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
But I think it's a key aspect of aging and longevity, so that's what gives us our interest in it.
但我认为这是衰老和长寿的一个关键方面，所以这才是我们对它感兴趣的原因。
The pineal gland, it seems from Caviness' work that the decrease in pineal gland function with aging is more of a physiologic than an anatomic problem.
松果体，从卡维尼斯的研究看来，松果体功能随着年龄的增长而下降更多的是一个生理问题，而不是一个解剖问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Now, I will see some calcification on MRIs when we have a patient come in for a stroke or a TBI.
现在，当我们有患者因中风或脑外伤来就诊时，我会在 MRI 上看到一些钙化。
We'll look at their MRI, and I'm like, "Hey, that looks like a little bit of calcification there." Maybe my neurology colleagues will disagree, but that seems to happen.
我们会看他们的核磁共振成像，我会说，“嘿，那里看起来有点钙化。”也许我的神经病学同事会不同意，但这似乎发生了。
But the question is, what is actually leading to the deterioration of melatonin synthesis?
但问题是，究竟是什么导致褪黑素合成恶化？
Because it decreases quite dramatically, and some people even think that might start puberty.
因为它的下降幅度相当大，有些人甚至认为这可能会导致青春期的开始。
If you have a pineal cyst, you can have precocious puberty at eight or nine years old.
如果你有松果体囊肿，你可能会在八、九岁时出现性早熟。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The rhythmicity in melatonin.
褪黑激素的节律性。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because a young baby, very young baby-
因为一个小婴儿，非常小的婴儿——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
their melatonin secretion is not very rhythmic.
他们的褪黑激素分泌不是很有节奏。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But they're in REM a lot.
但他们经常处于快速眼动睡眠状态。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A lot of their sleep is REM.
他们的大部分睡眠时间都是快速眼动睡眠。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a beautiful thing.
这是一件美丽的事情。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
With time, it becomes more rhythmic.
随着时间的推移，它变得更有节奏。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And of course, in today's day and age, with all the artificial lighting and the lack of sunlight exposure, things that you and I care a lot about-
当然，在今天这个时代，所有的人工照明和缺乏阳光照射，你和我都非常关心的事情 -
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
people are making themselves somewhat arrhythmic or phase shifted.
人们正在使自己变得有些心律不齐或相移。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But epitalon is somehow restoring pinealocytes.
但 Epitalon 正在以某种方式恢复松果体细胞。
It's somehow enhancing function of the pineal and other tissues?
它以某种方式增强松果体和其他组织的功能吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
So in Caviness' work, he's found that it will increase the expression of the different clock genes.
因此，在卡维尼斯的工作中，他发现它会增加不同时钟基因的表达。
So in lymphocytes that he'll measure in peripheral tissues, he'll notice that the clock genes actually change in a more rhythmic pattern.
因此，在他将在外周组织中测量的淋巴细胞中，他会注意到时钟基因实际上以更有节奏的模式变化。
He'll notice that morning cortisol is higher.
他会注意到早晨皮质醇较高。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Which, by the way, folks, I've said this in the cortisol episode, you want your morning cortisol super high.
顺便说一句，伙计们，我在皮质醇剧集中说过，你希望早上的皮质醇非常高。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You want your evening and nighttime cortisol low.
您希望晚上和夜间的皮质醇水平较低。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you're a resident in medical school, just listen to what your superiors say- ...
如果你是医学院的住院医师，就听听你的上级怎么说——......
because they don't give a shit about your cortisol levels.
因为他们根本不在乎你的皮质醇水平。
You got to do the hard work, and then later you get to-
你必须做艰苦的工作，然后你就会——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Exactly
正是如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
go to bed.
去睡觉吧。
It's a little weird that the medical profession tortures their own-
医学界折磨自己有点奇怪——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
by disrupting one of the primary anchors of health.
通过破坏健康的主要支柱之一。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And cognitive function.
和认知功能。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Right.
正确的。
I've had 28-hour shifts, and that's what got me interested in circadian rhythm in the first place.
我实行 28 小时轮班制，这首先让我对昼夜节律产生了兴趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're young.
你还年轻。
You're good.
你很厉害。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
But yeah, the idea was it was restoring a more circadian appropriate hormonal profile-
但是，是的，我们的想法是恢复更适合昼夜节律的荷尔蒙分布-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm
嗯
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
through HTH, cortisol.
通过 HTH、皮质醇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Take it when?
什么时候拿？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Anytime.
任何时候。
Because the idea with these bioregulators, unlike a GLP-1 drug that you take today and have the effect for the next week, the idea from the Cavinson model is that you take these, and then you accrue benefits when you're off of them.
因为这些生物调节剂的理念与您今天服用并在下周发挥作用的 GLP-1 药物不同，卡文森模型的理念是您服用这些药物，然后当您停止使用它们时，您就会获得好处。
Like you noticed with Penelon, you took Penelon for a day or two or three days a month, and you had effects until you took the next dose.
就像您在服用 Penelon 时注意到的那样，您每个月服用 Penelon 一天或两天或三天，直到服用下一剂为止，您都会产生效果。
So the idea is, can you accrue benefits from these compounds as they upregulate or downregulate certain genetic pathways-
所以我们的想法是，当这些化合物上调或下调某些遗传途径时，您能否从这些化合物中获益？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
in a more favorable state and then keep those effects later on?
处于更有利的状态，然后在以后保持这些效果？
So in the Cavinson seminal work was this 15-year longevity study.
因此，卡文森的开创性工作就是这项 15 年寿命研究。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
He got people in nursing homes, two groups.
他把疗养院的人分为两组。
One of them got epitalon in the form of epithalamin, which is the whole pineal gland extract, and then a thymus peptide called thymulin, not thymulin.
其中一个获得了上丘脑素形式的上皮隆，这是整个松果体提取物，然后是胸腺肽，称为胸腺素，而不是胸腺素。
Those are two different peptides.
这是两种不同的肽。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
A lot of people confuse them.
很多人都把他们搞混了。
Every peptide website confuses them.
每个肽网站都让他们感到困惑。
But they inject them for 15 years, like a 10 or 20-day course per year.
但他们会注射 15 年，就像每年 10 或 20 天的疗程一样。
Just beginning of the year, middle of the year, and that's it.
刚刚年初，年中，仅此而已。
And they had a significant lower mortality when it came to cardiovascular disease, infectious risk, and for cancers.
在心血管疾病、感染风险和癌症方面，他们的死亡率显着降低。
So Russian study caveat, but that would be the most interesting longevity study I've seen done, if accurate, if true, because he was able to take nursing home patients, give them peptides for a very small amount of the year, and yet they accrued benefits the rest of the year.
所以俄罗斯研究警告，但这将是我见过的最有趣的长寿研究，如果准确的话，如果真实的话，因为他能够带走疗养院的病人，在一年中给他们非常少量的肽，但他们在今年剩下的时间里积累了好处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Impressive.
令人印象深刻。
One of the things that really got me excited about epitalon, is it thalon or talon?
Epitalon 真正让我兴奋的事情之一是，它是 thalon 还是 talon？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
The Russians say epitalon.
俄罗斯人说 Epitalon。
It's the way they say it, but it's spelled with a T-H.
他们就是这么说的，但拼写是 T-H。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
So I'll say epitalon.
所以我会说 Epitalon。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
We're making the rules today.
今天我们制定规则。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Epitalon.
埃皮塔隆。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Epitalon is also AADG.
Epitalon 也是 AADG。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
That's the amino acid sequence for amino acids.
这就是氨基酸的氨基酸序列。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'll say epitalon because it's easiest for me, and forgive me if anyone takes offense.
我会说 epitalon 因为这对我来说最简单，如果有人冒犯，请原谅我。
I took interest because I In my former life, running a lab focused on, among other things, visual pathway repair-
我之所以感兴趣，是因为我在前世经营着一个专注于视觉通路修复等领域的实验室——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to reverse blindness or impending blindness.
扭转失明或即将失明。
There's some interesting papers, and there I can really gauge the data.
有一些有趣的论文，我可以真正评估数据。
Even though they're in mice, I can say, "This is a real effect"-
即使是在老鼠身上，我也可以说，“这是真实的效果”——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or a meh effect or a whoa effect.
或“meh”效应或“whoa”效应。
Using Epitalon to combat some of the neurodegeneration in things like retinitis pigmentosa.
使用 Epitalon 来对抗色素性视网膜炎等神经退行性疾病。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Downstream neurodegeneration in RP, which is a very common, unfortunately blinding disease.
RP 中的下游神经变性是一种非常常见的疾病，不幸的是会导致失明。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or even in glaucoma.
甚至青光眼。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I should mention that BPC-157, to my knowledge, hasn't been looked at extensively in terms of optic nerve repair-
我应该提到，据我所知，BPC-157 在视神经修复方面尚未得到广泛研究 -
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but it absolutely should be.
但这绝对应该是。
If someone knows those papers, please put them in the comments.
如果有人知道这些论文，请在评论中留言。
So I was intrigued.
所以我很感兴趣。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Here's this molecule that's somehow involved in DNA repair, and it's either maintaining or restoring some of the machinery that would otherwise definitely be lost in one of these optic nerve damage conditions that models things like glaucoma, retinitis pigmentosa, stroke-
这种分子以某种方式参与 DNA 修复，它可以维持或恢复一些机制，否则这些机制肯定会在青光眼、色素性视网膜炎、中风等视神经损伤病症中丢失——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
traumatic head injury.
头部外伤。
It's a big deal.
这是一件大事。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Vision and movement are kind of the biggies.
视觉和运动是最重要的。
There are other things too, but you don't want to lose those.
还有其他的东西，但你不想失去这些。
And if you do, you can get by, but you need additional support, obviously.
如果你这样做了，你也可以过得去，但显然你需要额外的支持。
So the reason it's so interesting to me is that it's getting to DNA repair, as opposed to these downstream, working on any number of vague receptor-ish-
所以它对我来说如此有趣的原因是它涉及 DNA 修复，而不是下游，作用于任何数量的模糊受体 -
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
maybe no receptor things like...
也许没有受体之类的东西...
And this is what gene therapy is about.
这就是基因疗法的意义所在。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So do you think of Epitalon as a kind of gene therapy of sorts, or do you think about it more as support for genetic machinery that has lots of downstream targets?
那么，您是否认为 Epitalon 是一种基因疗法，或者您是否更多地认为它是对具有大量下游靶标的遗传机制的支持？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes, I think it supports this genetic machinery.
是的，我认为它支持这种遗传机制。
When it comes to the eyes, it seems to be repairing some of the photoreceptors that might get damaged in a retinitis pigmentosa.
对于眼睛来说，它似乎可以修复一些可能因视网膜色素变性而受损的感光细胞。
Melanopsin wasn't discovered when Cavenson was kicking around.
卡文森闲逛时并没有发现黑视蛋白。
But my theory is that Epitalon is working on melanopsin.
但我的理论是 Epitalon 正在研究黑视蛋白。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
And that it may be upregulating melanopsin levels and then making that morning sunlight that everyone likes-
它可能会上调黑视蛋白水平，然后使早晨的阳光成为每个人都喜欢的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
to be more effective.
更加有效。
Because the big problem is a lot of people will tell me, "Doc, I did morning sunlight, I didn't feel effects." I'm like, "Have you had enough darkness to regenerate melanopsin levels?" Because we know that in animal studies, five days of pure darkness dramatically increases the amount of melanopsin in the retinas.
因为最大的问题是很多人会告诉我，“医生，我做了早晨的阳光，我没有感觉到效果。”我想，“你有足够的黑暗来恢复黑视素水平吗？”因为我们知道，在动物研究中，五天的纯黑暗会显着增加视网膜中黑视蛋白的数量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
This is interesting, and I certainly have a lot of close friends that are in a position to do these studies.
这很有趣，而且我当然有很多亲密的朋友能够进行这些研究。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the podcast is obviously available free to everyone, but we have a premium channel that funds research.
播客显然对所有人免费开放，但我们有一个为研究提供资金的付费频道。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We don't talk a lot about it, but we've given a lot of money away to excellent laboratories where they're free to explore these things.
我们对此谈得不多，但我们已经向优秀的实验室捐赠了大量资金，让他们可以自由地探索这些东西。
I'd love to see some of the studies that we're talking about today-
我很想看看我们今天讨论的一些研究 -
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
supported.
支持。
And by the way, that's done in collaboration with donors that do a match.
顺便说一句，这是与进行匹配的捐助者合作完成的。
So we could get the right people to do the right studies with no bias toward what the preferred outcome is.
因此，我们可以让合适的人进行正确的研究，而不会对首选结果产生偏见。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In fact, the scientists that we both know, the right ones, would try and disprove the hypothesis-
事实上，我们都认识的科学家，正确的科学家，会尝试反驳这个假设——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that any of this stuff was real.
这些东西都是真实的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And if something makes it through that filter, then they would conclude it's real.
如果有什么东西通过了这个过滤器，那么他们就会断定它是真实的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Otherwise, they're trying to essentially knock down the-
否则，他们正试图从根本上摧毁-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the "positive outcome."
“积极的结果”。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
And I think as a clinician, one of the key things for people to remember is that we've screwed up a lot of times as clinicians, through different grotesques, abuses of our trust.
我认为作为一名临床医生，人们要记住的关键一件事是，作为临床医生，我们已经多次搞砸了，通过不同的怪诞行为，滥用我们的信任。
We've done interventions or drugs that weren't the most efficacious.
我们采取的干预措施或药物并不是最有效的。
For example, in the 1910s to 1940s, we irradiated the thymuses of young kids to prevent SIDS.
例如，在 20 世纪 10 年代至 20 世纪 40 年代，我们对幼儿的胸腺进行辐射以预防 SIDS。
This was considered gold standard medicine.
这被认为是黄金标准医学。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Does this have anything to do with SIDS?
这与 SIDS 有什么关系吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
No, they thought that the-
不，他们认为——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sudden infant death.
婴儿突然死亡。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
They thought that the thymus was too big and was sitting on the heart, and that might be the cause.
他们认为胸腺太大并且位于心脏上，这可能就是原因。
So tons of these kids, I think at least 10,000, died from cancers.
很多孩子，我想至少有 10,000 人，死于癌症。
I think the only person that's talked about it is Sapolsky.
我认为唯一谈论这个问题的人是萨波尔斯基。
He has a video talking about this.
他有一个视频谈论这个。
So we've had a lot of issues as a field, and we have to be very cognizant of that and know the history of where we've been.
因此，作为一个领域，我们遇到了很多问题，我们必须非常清楚地认识到这一点，并了解我们所处的历史。
Like Virchow of the famous Virchow's triad, he was pro this therapy.
就像著名的魏尔啸三联征中的魏尔啸一样，他也支持这种疗法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
And we all learn about it in medical school, but no one talks about this aspect.
我们在医学院都学过它，但没有人谈论这方面。
So there's a lot of grotesque abuses of medical power, let's say.
可以说，存在很多荒诞的滥用医疗权力的行为。
We have to be very careful in which interventions we give people, and the first thing's do no harm.
我们必须非常小心地向人们提供干预措施，首先不要造成伤害。
So while we are excited about these therapies, we have to be kind of careful in where we're taking people.
因此，虽然我们对这些疗法感到兴奋，但我们必须谨慎对待患者的去向。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Appreciate it.
欣赏它。
Wasn't aware of that study.
不知道这项研究。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Perfect tee up for, no pun-
完美的开球，没有双关语-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for the thymus.
对于胸腺。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Tell me about the thymus.
告诉我有关胸腺的事。
Super interesting organ.
超级有趣的器官。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Gland.
腺体。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We all have one when we're born.
我们一出生就拥有一个。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
By time we're what age is it mostly gone?
到我们几岁的时候，它大部分都消失了？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
So the thymus is grown under the influence of a lot of these youthful hormones, melatonin, growth hormone, DHEA, and then is shrunk at the moment you hit puberty.
因此，胸腺是在许多青春激素（褪黑激素、生长激素、DHEA）的影响下生长的，然后在进入青春期的那一刻萎缩。
So until from the day of birth until puberty, you grow this massive thymus.
因此，从出生那天到青春期，你都会长出巨大的胸腺。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Where is it sit?
它坐在哪里？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
It's right above your heart, right behind the collarbone.
它就在你的心脏上方，锁骨后面。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How big is it?
有多大？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
In a baby, it could be quite large on the chest.
对于婴儿来说，胸部可能相当大。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As big as a baseball?
和棒球一样大？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Maybe the size of half the heart, let's say.
比方说，也许有一半心脏那么大。
Maybe bigger, depends on the size.
也许更大，取决于尺寸。
Right now, in our bodies, it's going to be a bunch of fat with a couple of different globules of thymic residue.
现在，在我们的体内，它将是一堆脂肪和几个不同的胸腺残留物小球。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Tiny.
很小。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Very tiny.
非常小。
In fact, most surgeons will just remove it when they do surgery nowadays for open heart.
事实上，现在大多数外科医生在进行心脏直视手术时都会将其取出。
But there's good data from "New England Journal of Medicine" that removing the thymus residue tissue leads to a mortality signal within the first five years after those surgeries.
但《新英格兰医学杂志》有很好的数据表明，去除胸腺残留组织会在手术后的头五年内导致死亡信号。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So people have died because of thymus removal?
那么有人因为胸腺切除而死亡吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
They'll have either higher rates of cancers or higher rates of autoimmune diseases if they have their thymuses removed.
如果他们的胸腺被切除，他们患癌症或自身免疫性疾病的几率就会更高。
Now, there are thymomas where people have to have their thymuses removed, but we're talking about people that the surgeon's going in to do a coronary artery bypass surgery.
现在，有胸腺瘤，人们必须切除胸腺，但我们谈论的是外科医生要进行冠状动脉搭桥手术的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is the thymus neurally innervated?
胸腺受神经支配吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's getting signals from brain?
那么它从大脑接收信号吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Vagus nerve, yep.
迷走神经，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sorry to get technical here, but since I did the episode on the vagus, some people might remember there's a lot of ascending-
很抱歉在这里谈论技术问题，但自从我做了关于迷走神经的那一集以来，有些人可能会记得有很多上升-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
sensory information from the vagus going up to the brain.
感觉信息从迷走神经上行至大脑。
There's also motor control from the brain going down through-
还有来自大脑的运动控制——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the vagus, so it's a two-way street.
迷走神经，所以这是一条双向路。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mostly up, some down.
大部分上涨，部分下跌。
Is the thymus controlled by the descending?
胸腺是由下降控制的吗？
In other words-
换句话说——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
That's a good question
这是个好问题
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is something going on in our brain, like stress level-
我们的大脑正在发生一些事情，比如压力水平-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or sleep controlling our thymic output?
或者睡眠控制我们的胸腺输出？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
So there's sympathetic and parasympathetic innervation to the thymus-
所以胸腺有交感神经和副交感神经支配-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Uh-huh
嗯嗯
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
that dictates its hormonal output, because the thymus...
这决定了它的荷尔蒙输出，因为胸腺......
Well, what is the thymus?
那么，什么是胸腺？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, what's it secreting?
是啊，它在分泌什么？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
It's a gland that both secretes hormones-
这是一个既分泌激素的腺体-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
and develops the T cells.
并发育 T 细胞。
So your lymphatic cells are found in your bone marrow.
因此，您的淋巴细胞存在于您的骨髓中。
That's where they're made.
那就是它们的制造地。
The T cells will travel up to the thymus and get trained, so they don't kill you.
T 细胞会到达胸腺并接受训练，因此它们不会杀死你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
And they don't attack your own tissue, but attack a foreign invader or a cancer or whatever it may be.
它们不会攻击你自己的组织，而是攻击外来入侵者或癌症或其他任何东西。
That process is very good in youth, and as you age, you get more autoimmunity, more cancers, et cetera, because the immune system is not as robust.
这个过程在年轻时非常好，随着年龄的增长，你会产生更多的自身免疫，更多的癌症等等，因为免疫系统不再那么强大。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Both because the thymus makes less of the hormones that train the immune cells and makes less of these immune cells themselves.
两者都是因为胸腺产生的训练免疫细胞的激素较少，并且产生的这些免疫细胞本身也较少。
So when you're 15, you're making 10 to the 8th magnitude of these cells every single day.
所以当你 15 岁的时候，你每天都会产生 10 到 8 级的这些细胞。
They're called naive T cells.
它们被称为幼稚 T 细胞。
They will eventually become your CD4 and CD8 T cells.
它们最终将成为您的 CD4 和 CD8 T 细胞。
As you age, this number dramatically decreases, and those cells will live somewhere between 10 and 15 years, and that can kind of gauge when the mortality window kicks in for a lot of these different disorders.
随着年龄的增长，这个数字会急剧下降，这些细胞的寿命会在 10 到 15 年之间，这可以在某种程度上衡量许多不同疾病的死亡率窗口何时开始。
When your thymus reaches a minimum level of output, you get a lot of these disorders like cancers, heart disease, autoimmunity.
当你的胸腺输出量达到最低水平时，你就会患上许多疾病，如癌症、心脏病、自身免疫性疾病。
If you put almost any disease and look at the thymus risk associated with it, it increases as the thymus function decreases.
如果你考虑几乎所有疾病并观察与之相关的胸腺风险，就会发现它随着胸腺功能的下降而增加。
There's a nature paper, 2026, just came out that looked at cardiovascular disease and cancer mortality and all these different metrics that they did MRIs of people, and the people that had the higher thymic scores had less mortality across every single one of these conditions.
刚刚发表了一篇《自然》论文《2026》，研究了心血管疾病和癌症死亡率以及他们对人们进行核磁共振成像的所有不同指标，胸腺得分较高的人在每种情况下的死亡率较低。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But you said, not challenging this-
但你说，不是挑战这一点——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but what's surprising about that very interesting result is that you said that by time you reach your, you're in your 30s, I'm in my 50s-
但这个非常有趣的结果令人惊讶的是，你说，当你达到你的年龄时，你已经30多岁了，我已经50多岁了-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
those ages, our ages, you've got just a bit of residual tissue there.
那些时代，我们的时代，那里只有一点残余组织。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's just a few cells, and yet it's somehow maintaining function.
它只是几个细胞，但它以某种方式维持着功能。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
The rate of decrease varies dramatically from person to person.
下降的速度因人而异。
So we call this thymic involution.
所以我们称之为胸腺复旧。
So from the moment puberty starts till you die, your thymus is slowly shrinking.
所以从青春期开始直到你死亡，你的胸腺都在慢慢萎缩。
That really happens in your 20s and 30s, the majority of that, under the pressure of androgens, estrogens, progestins, and corticosteroids.
这种情况确实发生在 20 多岁和 30 多岁的时候，其中大部分是在雄激素、雌激素、孕激素和皮质类固醇的压力下发生的。
Those are driving a lot of the shrinkage.
这些因素导致了大量的萎缩。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So the hormones that everyone seems to want to increase-
所以大家似乎都想增加的荷尔蒙——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the rest of their life and that become active a lot during puberty-
他们的余生，在青春期变得非常活跃-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
actually cause thymic involution.
实际上导致胸腺复旧。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
So, castration will undo some of the thymic involution.
因此，阉割会消除一些胸腺退化。
Pregnancy is a great time to involute your thymus, which makes sense because you don't want to be having an autoimmune attack against the baby, or I guess an immune attack against the baby.
怀孕是让你的胸腺退化的好时机，这是有道理的，因为你不想对婴儿进行自身免疫攻击，或者我猜想对婴儿进行免疫攻击。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do women's thymus disappear after pregnancy?
女性怀孕后胸腺会消失吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
They involute-
他们渐开线-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
and then will regrow during the breastfeeding period under the influences of growth hormone and prolactin.
然后在哺乳期在生长激素和催乳素的影响下重新生长。
So hibernating animals will have a dramatic shrinkage of the thymus during hibernation and then a regrowth during the feeding window.
因此，冬眠动物的胸腺在冬眠期间会急剧收缩，然后在进食窗口期重新生长。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is there any benefit to doing or taking something to either maintain or regenerate thymic size?
做或采取某些措施来维持或再生胸腺大小有什么好处吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
So there was a-
所以有一个——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As a, let's just say, somebody 25 or older.
作为一个 25 岁或以上的人。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
There's an interesting study, TRIM trial, from Dr. Greg Fahy.
Greg Fahy 博士进行了一项有趣的研究，即 TRIM 试验。
He's doing a study where he's giving a cocktail of growth hormone, metformin, and DHEA.
他正在进行一项研究，服用生长激素、二甲双胍和 DHEA 的混合物。
Gave that for 12 months and had the thymic size increase on imaging.
持续 12 个月，影像学显示胸腺尺寸增大。
The amount of CD4 or CD8 T cells increase, and the ratio of which improved.
CD4或CD8 T细胞数量增加，比例提高。
And then some of the markers that would show immune cell exhaustion, like PD-1 and all these different aspects of T cell dynamics, also improved.
然后，一些显示免疫细胞衰竭的标记物，如 PD-1 和 T 细胞动力学的所有这些不同方面，也得到了改善。
So they're trying to use growth hormone to regrow the thymus.
所以他们正在尝试使用生长激素来再生胸腺。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Getting us directly to peptides, many people who are peptide curious-
让我们直接了解肽，许多对肽感到好奇的人-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
start asking about thymosin alpha.
开始询问胸腺素α。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is thymosin alpha a peptide that comes from the thymus?
胸腺肽α是来自胸腺的肽吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thankfully, they named it appropriately this time.
值得庆幸的是，这次他们命名得恰到好处。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great for that.
非常适合这个。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What does thymosin alpha do endogenously when you're not injecting it or taking it?
当您不注射或服用胸腺肽 α 时，它会内源性地发挥什么作用？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's its normal function?
它的正常功能是什么？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
So, thymosin alpha one is part of this thymic family of hormones that gets secreted.
因此，胸腺素α1是胸腺分泌激素家族的一部分。
It's these 21 amino acids.
就是这21种氨基酸。
It increases T cell development in the thymus, increases T cell proliferation outside the thymus, and makes the T cells more likely to properly attack a pathogen.
它可以增加胸腺中 T 细胞的发育，增加胸腺外 T 细胞的增殖，并使 T 细胞更有可能正确攻击病原体。
It's like a jet fuel for the T cells.
它就像 T 细胞的喷气燃料。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's pro-immune?
那么它有利于免疫吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've heard of people taking it when they feel run down.
我听说有人在感到沮丧时服用它。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If they're traveling, they're sleeping less than usual, they're a new parent.
如果他们在旅行，他们的睡眠时间会比平常少，因为他们是新手父母。
So obviously, that's kind of Peptide Wild West kind of indications.
显然，这就是肽狂野西部的一种迹象。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
It was FDA approved as Zadaxin-
它被 FDA 批准为 Zadaxin-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
for kids that were born without a thymus or a malfunctioned thymus, like DiGeorge syndrome, these different kind of genetic abnormalities, to be used for these kids to help develop the T cells that they had that weren't in the thymus because they'd have bone marrow T cells that weren't properly developed.
对于出生时没有胸腺或胸腺功能障碍的孩子，例如迪乔治综合症，这些不同类型的遗传异常，可用于帮助这些孩子发育他们胸腺中没有的 T 细胞，因为他们的骨髓 T 细胞发育不正常。
So there was good support from thymosin alpha one for these kids.
因此，胸腺素α1对这些孩子有很好的支持。
I don't think that FDA approval still exists, so the people are trying to grandfather thymosin alpha one into this peptide conversation.
我不认为 FDA 的批准仍然存在，所以人们试图将胸腺素 α1 纳入这个肽的讨论中。
In other countries, it's approved for adjuvant therapy for hepatitis B, hepatitis C, and in different cancers.
在其他国家，它被批准用于乙型肝炎、丙型肝炎和不同癌症的辅助治疗。
So far, the sepsis literature and the infectious literature is not that promising.
到目前为止，脓毒症文献和感染性文献的前景并不乐观。
It might be like if you take antibiotics with thymosin alpha one, you might have a quicker bounce around.
这可能就像如果您同时服用抗生素和胸腺肽α1，您可能会恢复得更快。
What I would be interested to see is if you went to nursing homes, injected everybody with thymosin alpha one in November, in December, would you have less flu in January and February?
我感兴趣的是，如果你去疗养院，在 11 月和 12 月给每个人注射胸腺肽 α-1，你在一月和二月的流感会减少吗？
That'd be the interesting thought experiment.
这将是一个有趣的思想实验。
Both thymosin alpha one and thymosin beta four come out of the Goldstein Lab.
胸腺素α一和胸腺素β四均来自戈德斯坦实验室。
That's the very famous lab that studied the thymus in the '70s, '80s, and '90s.
这是 70 年代、80 年代和 90 年代研究胸腺的非常著名的实验室。
But thymic research kind of fell out of favor the last few decades, but now it's being-
但胸腺研究在过去几十年里有点失宠，但现在它正在——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's almost as sexy as the-
它几乎和——一样性感
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Pineal gland
松果体
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
pineal gland.
松果体。
I say that sort of tongue in cheek because I think these are fascinating glands.
我这么说是半开玩笑的，因为我认为这些腺体很迷人。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the reason I ask if they're neurally innervated-
我之所以问他们是否受到神经支配——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is that nowadays there are a lot of reasons why people choose to study one thing or the other.
现在人们选择学习一件事或另一件事的原因有很多。
But these understudied glands, if neurally innervated, then open up a lot of interesting questions about brain control-
但这些未被充分研究的腺体，如果受到神经支配，就会引发许多关于大脑控制的有趣问题——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
behavioral stress control.
行为压力控制。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the experiments kind of write themselves.
实验是自己写的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Doing them still takes a lot of work.
完成它们仍然需要大量的工作。
Interpreting them is no easy task either.
解释它们也不是一件容易的事。
But I think there should certainly be more work on the pineal and on the thymus.
但我认为肯定应该对松果体和胸腺进行更多的研究。
So I want to make that clear.
所以我想澄清这一点。
Have you taken thymosin alpha?
你服用了胸腺肽α吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah?
是吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
I've used thymosin alpha one when I travel to avoid the cesspool of planes and hotels and all these places, which I would say traveling and then this year on the wards, the first time I don't get flu, cold, whatever kind of infection, I'm dosing thymosin alpha 1 throughout, and I didn't get sick a single time.
我在旅行时使用了胸腺肽α1，以避免飞机和酒店以及所有这些地方的污水坑，我会说旅行，然后今年在病房里，我第一次没有患流感，感冒，任何类型的感染，我一直在服用胸腺肽α1，而且我一次都没有生病。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What time of day or night are you injecting?
您在白天或晚上的什么时间注射？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Twice a week, time agnostic.
一周两次，时间不限。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
We're talking about 2.5 milligrams as a prophylactic.
我们谈论的是 2.5 毫克作为预防剂。
That's not FDA approved or-
那不是 FDA 批准的或者-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Or that-
或者说——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is just you doing your thing.
这只是你在做你的事情。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
No, I'm curious and see if it would work and-
不，我很好奇，看看它是否有效并且-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you're trying to stay healthy so you can-
你正在努力保持健康，这样你就可以-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
take care of patients.
照顾病人。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you're willing to be your own experiment.
所以你愿意成为你自己的实验。
When we hear about thymosin alpha, we usually hear about TB 500-
当我们听到胸腺肽 α 时，我们通常会听到 TB 500-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
also.
也。
What's TB 500 and how are the two related, if at all?
TB 500 是什么？两者有什么关系（如果有的话）？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
So while Cavenson's finding thymulin and he's injecting that into people, the Goldstein lab finds thymosin fraction five, which is this giant protein that has many different peptides in it, thymosin alpha one being one of them, and then thymosin beta four being the other one.
因此，当卡文森发现胸腺素并将其注射到人体中时，戈德斯坦实验室发现了胸腺素五分之一，这是一种巨大的蛋白质，其中含有许多不同的肽，胸腺素α一是其中之一，然后胸腺素β四是另一种。
Thymosin alpha one, thymosin beta four were discovered in the thymus, but they're not exclusive to the thymus gland.
胸腺素α一、胸腺素β四是在胸腺中发现的，但它们并不是胸腺所独有的。
They're also made in other tissues.
它们也由其他组织制成。
Thymosin beta four seems to be this 43 amino acid peptide that helps in the actin cytoskeleton of cells.
胸腺素 β 4 似乎是这种 43 个氨基酸的肽，有助于细胞的肌动蛋白细胞骨架。
So if you think about it, immune cells have to move a lot.
所以如果你仔细想想，免疫细胞必须移动很多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
So they have to reorganize their actin cytoskeleton quite quickly, so it seems to upregulate that movement.
所以它们必须很快地重组肌动蛋白细胞骨架，所以它似乎上调了这种运动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Which the horse community for doping, and other athletes have found a niche for thymosin beta four to use it as a doping-
马匹兴奋剂界和其他运动员已经找到了胸腺素β4的利基，可以将其用作兴奋剂-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You said the horse community?
你说马社？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah, horse races, thymosin beta four is a very common doping agent.
是的，在赛马比赛中，胸腺素β四是一种非常常见的兴奋剂。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For the riders or for the-
对于骑手或对于-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
For the horses.
对于马来说。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For the horses.
对于马来说。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do they test the horses for doping?
他们会对马匹进行兴奋剂检测吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah, no, there's a big doping scandal when it comes to horses and thymosin.
是的，不，涉及马和胸腺肽时存在严重的兴奋剂丑闻。
I don't know if they test them or they like-
我不知道他们是否测试过或者他们喜欢-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You know what's funny?
你知道什么好笑吗？
This is a very relevant tangent.
这是一个非常相关的切线。
Occasionally someone will say, "Hey, does all this morning sunlight stuff, does that work on dogs?" And I go, "Listen, I hate to tell you this, but a lot of the literature came from animals-
偶尔有人会说，“嘿，早上的阳光有什么作用吗？这对狗有用吗？”我说：“听着，我不想告诉你这个，但是很多文献都来自动物——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
not necessarily dogs, and they have melanopsin ganglion cells.
不一定是狗，它们有黑视蛋白神经节细胞。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They have super charismatic."
他们具有超级魅力。”
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes, yes, and yes.
是的，是的，是的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Same physiology.
相同的生理学。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then recently, won't say who, wasn't me, truly I have a friend whose dog was injured and the question becomes, would BPC work?
然后最近，不会说是谁，不是我，我真的有一个朋友，他的狗受伤了，问题是，BPC 有用吗？
And you can actually say, well, there's a lot more animal data than human data.
实际上你可以说，动物数据比人类数据多得多。
Talked to a couple vets, and vets, they're a lot more adventurous than we might think.
和几位兽医交谈过，他们比我们想象的更有冒险精神。
And I thought, well, listen, now of course these are pets.
我想，好吧，听着，现在这些当然是宠物了。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love my dog.
我爱我的狗。
It isn't not the same as a human.
这和人类不太一样。
I am a bit of a speciesist, but love them tremendously.
我有点物种歧视，但非常喜欢它们。
And I think the pet peptide industry-
我认为宠物肽行业——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Okay
好的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is going to be enormous.
将会是巨大的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
It's blowing up already.
已经炸了
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So here's the question-
所以问题是——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and then we'll go right back to what we were saying before.
然后我们就回到之前所说的。
There's been so much interest in NAD.
人们对 NAD 非常感兴趣。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
NMN and NR to upregulate NAD, but as a prolong longevity, NAD for one of these things that drops over the lifespan.
NMN 和 NR 可以上调 NAD，但为了延长寿命，NAD 会随着寿命的推移而下降。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Although the paper last week says that it doesn't drop in blood.
尽管上周报纸说它不会滴血。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
The landmark paper.
具有里程碑意义的论文。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I will say-
我会说——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Which is debated, but-
这是有争议的，但是-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The news stories on that claim that I called it a longevity drug.
有关该事件的新闻报道称我称其为长寿药。
I've always said that NAD, I do augment NAD using NMN.
我一直说 NAD，我确实使用 NMN 来增强 NAD。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It gives me more morning energy.
它给了我更多的早晨能量。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I will say it does make my nails really thick-
我会说它确实让我的指甲变得很厚-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and my hair grow fast.
我的头发长得很快。
Two effects I was not looking for.
有两个效果是我没有寻找的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I like the energy effect.
但我喜欢能量效应。
I've never said it increases lifespan, ever.
我从来没有说过它可以延长寿命。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, this was mentioned in the "New York Times" and elsewhere, and it's absolutely false that my name's included in that statement.
所以，《纽约时报》和其他地方都提到了这一点，而我的名字出现在该声明中是绝对错误的。
So their fact-checkers need fact-checking.
所以他们的事实核查人员需要进行事实核查。
NAD has been kind of the thing for a lot of people-
NAD 对很多人来说都是一种东西——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
who want to go beyond supplements.
想要超越补充剂的人。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
They kind of beyond creatine, beyond magnesium, beyond what they can get just on-
它们超出了肌酸、镁、超出了他们所能获得的——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
Amazon or whatever, but they don't want to go all the way to blood cleansing and all this other stuff which-
亚马逊或其他什么，但他们不想一路进行血液净化和所有其他东西-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I certainly don't do myself, and I think that's too extreme, at least for me.
我自己当然不会这样做，而且我认为这太极端了，至少对我来说。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
To each their own.
对于每个人来说。
When I hear about thymosin alpha, TB 500, BPC, it occupies this kind of middle ground, right?
当我听说胸腺肽 α、TB 500、BPC 时，它占据了这种中间立场，对吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so I think this is why a lot of people are saying, "Hey, listen, I love my dog.
所以我认为这就是为什么很多人说：“嘿，听着，我爱我的狗。
I love my cat.
我爱我的猫。
I don't know if NAD's going to do anything for their longevity.
我不知道 NAD 是否会为他们的长寿做点什么。
It doesn't look like it." May or may not, I don't know.
看起来不像。”可能会也可能不会，我不知道。
But I think a lot of people are starting to think, "Oh," and here we go.
但我认为很多人开始想，“哦，”我们开始吧。
Pavlov and his dogs.
巴甫洛夫和他的狗。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I do think this is another category of interest, and of course, we're the curators.
所以我确实认为这是另一个兴趣类别，当然，我们是策展人。
They don't get a vote.
他们没有投票权。
They can't consent.
他们不能同意。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So we have to be very thoughtful there, too.
所以我们在这方面也必须深思熟虑。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If I ask you, let's say I had an aged dog and I come to you and I go, "Listen, I know you're a human physician, but he's getting sick a lot.
如果我问你，假设我有一只老狗，我来找你，然后我说：“听着，我知道你是一名人类医生，但他病得很厉害。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Maybe get him some thymosin alpha.
也许给他一些胸腺肽α。
He's kind of creaky joints, get some BPC.
他的关节有点吱吱作响，吃点 BPC 吧。
He's probably got a couple years to go, and that's it." Would you say like...
他可能还有几年的时间，仅此而已。”你会说像...
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Well-
嗯-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know you're not a vet
我知道你不是兽医
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
the veterinary board is going to sue me now, but
兽医委员会现在要起诉我，但是
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, they're not going to.
不，他们不会。
Actually, I have relatives who are vets.
事实上，我有亲戚是兽医。
They are very open.
他们非常开放。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Oh, interesting.
哦，有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very open.
非常开放。
The veterinary community's been very open.
兽医界一直非常开放。
I injected my previous dog-
我给我以前的狗注射了——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with testosterone later in life, and I expected the vets to come after me with pitchforks, and I got calls that said-
在以后的生活中服用睾丸激素，我希望兽医会用干草叉来追我，然后我接到电话说：
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
No
否
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
"We would love to prescribe this.
“我们很乐意开这个处方。
In fact, we wish we could just do vasectomies on male dogs, let them keep their testosterone, and then you don't have to worry about this breeding problem, and then you let people train them not to hump."
事实上，我们希望我们可以对公狗进行输精管切除术，让它们保留睾丸激素，然后就不必担心这个繁殖问题，然后让人们训练它们不要驼背。”
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
No, my sister was at a compounding pharmacy here locally that would give dogs their testosterone, and people loved it.
不，我姐姐在当地的一家复合药房工作，这家药房可以给狗提供睾丸激素，人们很喜欢它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It made him so much healthier and happier.
这让他变得更加健康和快乐。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have zero regrets.
我的后悔是零。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
I'm pro peptide for pets, let's say.
比方说，我是宠物肽专业人士。
I think there would be beneficial effects.
我认为会有有益的影响。
We know dogs, when they vomit, they end up licking some of the vomit.
我们知道狗，当它们呕吐时，它们最终会舔一些呕吐物。
You've seen this before.
你以前见过这个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes, unfortunately.
是的，不幸的是。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
As I saw that, I'm like, "Is he trying to get peptides back from the gastric tract?" Like, that's the first-
当我看到这一点时，我想，“他是想从胃道中取回肽吗？”比如说，这是第一个——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe
也许
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
from a Pavlovian thought.
来自巴甫洛夫思想。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're being kind to dogs.
你对狗很友善。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
So I'm like, I mean, intuitively, instinctively-
所以我就像，我的意思是，直觉地，本能地——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Sure
当然可以
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
there might be something there, they might be trying to get BPC out of that, who knows?
那里可能有什么事情，他们可能试图让 BPC 摆脱困境，谁知道呢？
But, I think there would be less hesitation for people to use these on animals.
但是，我认为人们在动物身上使用这些药物时不会那么犹豫。
They come from animal literature, like you said.
正如你所说，它们来自动物文学。
We don't want to be harming these pets, right?
我们不想伤害这些宠物，对吗？
But I think a lot of the positive signals are going to come out of people giving them to their pets.
但我认为人们把它们送给宠物会发出很多积极的信号。
Unfortunately, there's so many brands now that are popping up every day giving their pets peptides.
不幸的是，现在每天都有很多品牌出现给他们的宠物提供肽。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Because BPC, is it going to be treated as a supplement when it comes to oral capsules, or is it going to be treated as a med?
因为BPC，它是作为口服胶囊的补充剂，还是作为药物？
We haven't got that answer from the FDA.
我们还没有从 FDA 得到答案。
RFK himself has kind of said like, "Oh, these are supplements.
RFK 本人曾说过，“哦，这些是补充剂。
They're not medications." So FDA-
它们不是药物。”所以FDA——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He said that?
他这么说？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
He said that.
他这么说。
"We're not going to regulate them as meds because they're not meds." Which I don't know if the agency themselves is going to be too happy with that.
“我们不会将它们作为药物进行监管，因为它们不是药物。”我不知道该机构本身是否会对此感到高兴。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, there's a big, well, Makary, I don't ever know how to pronounce his last name-
我的意思是，有一个很大的，嗯，Makary，我从来不知道如何发音他的姓氏 -
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
recently left, so there was a, from what I understand, a kind of a split.
最近离开，所以据我了解，有一种分裂。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't think he left because of peptide anything.
我不认为他离开是因为肽什么的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think it was related to other things that I'm not aware of.
我认为这与我不知道的其他事情有关。
But I do think the question that you're raising is one of the most important questions Is BPC going to be taken seriously as a drug?
但我确实认为您提出的问题是最重要的问题之一，BPC 是否会被认真对待作为一种药物？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or is it more creatine-ish?
还是肌酸含量更高？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
For example, I could give you a B12 supplement.
例如，我可以给您补充 B12。
You could buy that on Amazon, or I could prescribe that to you.
你可以在亚马逊上购买，或者我可以给你开处方。
But if I was to give you an injectable B12 shot, you would need a prescription for that.
但如果我要给你注射 B12 注射剂，你就需要处方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
So is that distinction going to apply to peptides also is the big question that no one's answered.
因此，这种区别是否适用于肽也是一个没有人回答的大问题。
And pinealon is a supplement you can find in Kazakhstan and Russia and Ukraine, wherever, all these different countries, over the counter in different pharmacies.
松果仁是一种补充剂，您可以在哈萨克斯坦、俄罗斯和乌克兰的任何地方，所有这些不同的国家，在不同的药店柜台找到。
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is pinealon available as a capsule?
松果酮有胶囊形式吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
It's available as a capsule.
它以胶囊形式提供。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Does it work as well as a capsule?
它和胶囊一样有效吗？
Or-
或者-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
In a capsule, a higher dose is needed, but it still works.
在胶囊中，需要更高的剂量，但它仍然有效。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What are the dosages, excuse me, that people are injecting versus taking orally?
请问，人们注射的剂量与口服的剂量是多少？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
So when it comes to the bioregulators, the epithelion, pinealon, the Cavinton literature looks at microgram dosages, from 10 to 100 micrograms of the actual raw peptides.
因此，当谈到生物调节剂、上皮细胞、松果酮时，Caviton 文献着眼于微克剂量，即 10 至 100 微克的实际原始肽。
Of the peptide mixes, we're talking about 10 milligrams.
我们谈论的是 10 毫克的肽混合物。
So 10 milligrams of desiccated cow brain, that might give you a few hundred micrograms of pinealon.
10 毫克干燥的牛脑可能会产生几百微克的松果酮。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Ooh, man.
哦，伙计。
Desiccated cow brain makes me think-
干牛脑让我思考——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of Creutzfeldt-Jakob-
克雅氏-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
AKA mad cow, prion-
又名疯牛病、朊病毒——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
That was the-
那是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Prion prion
朊病毒 朊病毒
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
first patient I had on wards in third year of medical school
我在医学院三年级时在病房里遇到的第一个病人
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Had degenerative brain-
大脑退化了——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
from Creutzfeldt-Jakob.
来自克雅氏。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
They were, it was a bad case-
他们是，这是一个糟糕的情况-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, my goodness
哦，我的天哪
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
on neurology wards.
在神经内科病房。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Please, folks-
请各位——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
do not be consuming brains.
不要消耗大脑。
I know there's some people like, "Oh, he's got all this stuff that can help you." Please, please, please.
我知道有些人会说，“哦，他有很多可以帮助你的东西。”拜托，拜托，拜托。
These prion things are really serious.
这些朊病毒的事情真的很严重。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Scary.
可怕。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's really scary.
真的很可怕。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's really, really scary.
这真的非常非常可怕。
And not just from Wild Game, but it's-
不仅仅是来自《狂野游戏》，而是——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
No
否
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
really scary.
真的很可怕。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
By the way, I think this set back all that research in the, when the prion stuff happened in the early 2000s, that set back a lot of these animal-derived peptide research dramatically because people were like, "Oh, we don't want to touch these extracts anymore."
顺便说一句，我认为这阻碍了所有的研究，当 2000 年代初发生朊病毒事件时，这些研究极大地阻碍了许多动物源性肽的研究，因为人们会说，“哦，我们不想再接触这些提取物了。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Makes sense.
有道理。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Because there was thymus extracts.
因为有胸腺提取物。
There was about 10 different groups in Eastern Europe that came up with their own thymus peptide drug-
东欧大约有 10 个不同的团体想出了自己的胸腺肽药物 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm
嗯
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
which was a polypeptide fragment with thymus alpha-1, thymus beta-4, Thylon, Thymogen, like all these different peptides that you'd get together.
这是一个含有胸腺 α-1、胸腺 β-4、Thylon、Thymogen 的多肽片段，就像所有这些不同的肽一样。
The Eastern Europeans went down this mix of just mixing up young thymuses, because you don't want an old thymus from a cow.
东欧人只是将年轻的胸腺混合在一起，因为你不想要牛身上的老胸腺。
You want a six-month-old cow that has the giant, juicy, big thymus with all the healthy hormones in there.
你想要一头六个月大的牛，它有巨大、多汁、大的胸腺，里面含有所有健康的激素。
They'd grind that up and inject that into humans with positive effects, like hundreds of papers on that.
他们将其磨碎并注射到人体中，产生积极的效果，就像数百篇相关论文一样。
The American side, the Goldstein group, came up with Thymosin fraction 5, which has thymus alpha-1 and thymus and beta-4 in it.
美国方面的Goldstein小组提出了胸腺肽5级分，其中含有胸腺α-1和胸腺β-4。
Also, thymus and beta-10, thymus and beta-9, a bunch of different thymosins.
此外，还有胸腺和 β-10、胸腺和 β-9，以及一堆不同的胸腺素。
But studied these two dramatically, thymus alpha-1 and thymus and beta-4.
但对这两种胸腺α-1和胸腺β-4进行了戏剧性的研究。
The French came up with the actual main thymus hormone, which is thymulin, not thymalin.
法国人提出了真正的主要胸腺激素，即胸腺素，而不是胸腺素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Thymalin's the Russian polypeptide mix.
胸腺素是俄罗斯的多肽混合物。
Thymulin is a nine-amino acid, peptide that is the marker of thymus function.
胸腺素是一种九氨基酸肽，是胸腺功能的标志。
It also has very interesting neurological effects, which I think you'll find interesting because it modulates the, what we're calling the thymus pituitary adrenal axis, the thymus pituitary gonadal axis.
它还具有非常有趣的神经效应，我想你会发现很有趣，因为它调节我们所说的胸腺垂体肾上腺轴，胸腺垂体性腺轴。
Thymulin is this peptide that's secreted by the thymus, dramatically decreases with age, is zinc dependent.
胸腺素是一种由胸腺分泌的肽，随着年龄的增长而急剧减少，并且依赖于锌。
So biology likes to use metals with different amino acid structures, hemoglobin with iron, GHK copper with copper.
所以生物学喜欢用氨基酸结构不同的金属，血红蛋白用铁，GHK铜用铜。
Thymulin is zinc dependent, so it's a nine amino acid peptide with zinc inside of it to do its effects.
胸腺素依赖于锌，因此它是一种九氨基酸肽，内部含有锌来发挥作用。
That will develop NK cells and T cells, stimulate the immune response.
这将发展 NK 细胞和 T 细胞，刺激免疫反应。
But also in the animal models, not replicated in humans yet, when they take out the pituitary and then inject ACTH or hCG, the amount of thymulin sensitizes the end organ to production of the targeted hormone.
但在尚未在人类身上复制的动物模型中，当他们取出垂体然后注射 ACTH 或 hCG 时，胸腺素的量会使末端器官对目标激素的产生变得敏感。
For example, if you were to give hCG alone to the animal-
例如，如果您单独给予动物 hCG——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
HCG.
人绒毛膜促性腺激素。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah, hCG.
是的，hCG。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Synthetic luteinizing hormone.
合成黄体生成素。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
Yes, yes, yes.
是的，是的，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Essentially.
本质上。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
HCG is binding to the, it's called the hCG LH receptor.
HCG 与 hCG LH 受体结合。
So they would get more testosterone produced when they got hCG with thymulin-
因此，当他们服用 hCG 和胸腺素时，他们会产生更多的睾酮 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm
嗯
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
versus hCG alone.
与单独的 hCG 相比。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what you're saying is that thymosin alpha, potentially, or TB500, or other thymic hormones-
所以你说的是胸腺素α，可能是，或者TB500，或者其他胸腺激素-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Thymulin specifically.
特别是胸腺素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Thymulin specifically.
特别是胸腺素。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
The other ones do different effects on the pituitary axis.
其他的对垂体轴有不同的影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
So thymulin specifically-
所以胸腺素特别是-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
can augment-
可以增强-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the effects of endogenous and perhaps also exogenous hormones.
内源性激素和外源性激素的影响。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
And it makes sense because if you're not robust when it comes to immune status, because you can think of your thymulin as high in youth, low in aged.
这是有道理的，因为如果您的免疫状态不强健，您可以认为您的胸腺素在年轻时较高，在老年时较低。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
You have no business investing in reproduction.
你没有资格投资繁殖。
You have no business in creating a lot of corticosteroids, because that gives you that youthful energy in the morning.
你没有必要产生大量的皮质类固醇，因为这会给你早晨带来年轻的能量。
But if you're making a lot of corticosteroids, you're shrinking your thymus.
但如果你产生大量皮质类固醇，你的胸腺就会萎缩。
So it creates kind of a feedback loop, negative feedback loop, to prevent you from overrunning your system.
因此，它创建了一种反馈循环，负反馈循环，以防止您超出系统范围。
A lot of young guys will be like, "Oh, my immune system sucks and my testosterone is low." Is there a thymus link there, is the question.
很多年轻人会说，“哦，我的免疫系统很糟糕，而且我的睾酮水平很低。”问题是那里是否存在胸腺链接。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
And I'm sure that you're the first person in the last 20 years to be talking about this publicly.
我确信您是过去 20 年来第一个公开谈论这一问题的人。
And I really appreciate that you are, because of course you knew what the thymus was.
我真的很感激你，因为你当然知道胸腺是什么。
Don't know a lot about the biology-
对生物学了解不多
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but you've really opened people's eyes to what it is, that it goes away over time.
但你确实让人们看到了它的本质，它会随着时间的推移而消失。
People taking thymosin alpha, TB500, and thymulin-
服用胸腺素 α、TB500 和胸腺素的人-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is this something that people would cocktail, or is taking thymulin something that generally could be a good idea under certain circumstances?
这是人们会鸡尾酒的东西，还是服用胸腺素在某些情况下通常是一个好主意？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Thymulin itself has a very short half-life.
胸腺素本身的半衰期很短。
The goal would be to increase endogenous production of the thymulin itself.
目标是增加胸腺素本身的内源性产量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How would you do that?
你会怎么做？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
So sufficient zinc status is necessary to make thymulin.
因此，足够的锌含量对于制造胸腺素是必要的。
The first sign of zinc depletion before RBC zinc or serum zinc decrease is your thymulin levels tank.
在红细胞锌或血清锌下降之前锌耗尽的第一个迹象是胸腺素水平罐。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, LMNT.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 LMNT。
LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't.
LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您需要的一切，没有您不需要的东西。
That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in the correct ratios, but no sugar.
这意味着电解质、钠、镁和钾的比例都正确，但不含糖。
Proper hydration is critical for brain and body function.
适当的水合作用对于大脑和身体功能至关重要。
Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish your cognitive and physical performance.
即使是轻微程度的脱水也会降低您的认知和身体表现。
It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes.
获得充足的电解质也很重要。
The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, are vital for the functioning of all cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells.
电解质（钠、镁和钾）对于体内所有细胞（尤其是神经元或神经细胞）的功能至关重要。
Drinking LMNT makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes.
饮用 LMNT 可以轻松确保您获得足够的水分和电解质。
My days tend to start really fast, meaning I have to jump right into work or right into exercise.
我的日子往往开始得很快，这意味着我必须立即投入工作或立即锻炼。
So to make sure that I'm hydrated and I have sufficient electrolytes, when I first wake up in the morning, I drink 16 to 32 ounces of water with an LMNT packet dissolved in it.
因此，为了确保我有足够的水分和足够的电解质，当我早上第一次醒来时，我会喝 16 至 32 盎司的水，其中溶解有 LMNT 包。
I also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes.
我还会在进行任何体育锻炼时饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT，尤其是在炎热的日子里，当我大量出汗并失去水和电解质时。
LMNT has a bunch of great-tasting flavors.
LMNT 有很多美味的口味。
In fact, I love them all.
事实上，我爱他们所有人。
I love the watermelon, the raspberry, the citrus, and I really love the lemonade flavor.
我喜欢西瓜、覆盆子、柑橘，而且我真的很喜欢柠檬水的味道。
So if you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with any purchase.
因此，如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman，购买任意商品即可领取免费的 LMNT 样品包。
Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.
再次强调，请访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman 索取免费样品包。
GHK-Cu.
GHK-铜。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Most of the questions I get about it are from women.
我收到的大部分问题都来自女性。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I sent out a little informal poll to the, I have to be careful how I say this, the women in my life including siblings and things like that, and almost all the women said: "What about GHK copper?
我向我生命中的女性（包括兄弟姐妹等）发出了一份非正式的小调查，我必须小心说话，几乎所有女性都说：“GHK 铜怎么样？
I hear it can be good for my skin.
我听说它对我的皮肤有好处。
Should I use it topically, take it orally, or inject it?
我应该局部使用、口服还是注射？
If I inject it, should I inject it locally?" I'm like, "Please don't inject it in your face," because as much as I'm comfortable with people giving themselves a little-
如果注射的话，应该局部注射吗？”我说，“请不要把它注射到你脸上”，因为尽管我对人们给自己一点点感觉很舒服——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
sterile injection in the belly or something like that, I get worried about non-experts injecting themselves in the face and other tissues.
在腹部或类似的地方进行无菌注射，我担心非专家会将自己注射到面部和其他组织中。
So, a lot of interest in this.
所以，对此很感兴趣。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What is it?
它是什么？
Why has it made it into this kind of aesthetic category?
为什么它会被归入这样的审美范畴呢？
Because I'm guessing it has a lot of other effects, too.
因为我猜它还有很多其他影响。
But it's kind of funny how things kind of land in one region.
但事情发生在一个地区的方式有点有趣。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like creatine was the muscle thing for a long time.
就像肌酸长期以来一直是肌肉的东西一样。
Then it got some kind of like, maybe it's good for cognition, maybe for people with Alzheimer's, maybe women should take it, too, for all those reasons and more, and it kind of reverted back to the muscle thing.
然后它就变得有点像，也许它对认知有好处，也许对患有阿尔茨海默氏症的人来说，也许女性也应该服用它，出于所有这些原因以及更多，然后它又回到了肌肉的事情。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
GHK-Cu is a tripeptide with a copper ion in the middle.
GHK-Cu是中间有一个铜离子的三肽。
It's glycine, histidine, and lysine.
它是甘氨酸、组氨酸和赖氨酸。
It's actually found in type I collagen fibers.
它实际上存在于 I 型胶原纤维中。
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Tell me where type I collagen fibers are.
告诉我 I 型胶原纤维在哪里。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
All over your skin-
遍布你的皮肤——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great
太棒了
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
hair-
头发-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay
好的
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
and connective tissue.
和结缔组织。
So, just like Vladimir Khavinson discovers these 40 different peptides and liver peptides, brain peptides, penile peptides, whatever it may be, there's an American researcher, Lauren Pickart, Dr. Lauren Pickart, who has passed now.
所以，就像弗拉基米尔·卡文森（Vladimir Khavinson）发现了这40种不同的肽以及肝肽、脑肽、阴茎肽，无论是什么，现在有一位美国研究人员劳伦·皮卡特（Lauren Pickart），劳伦·皮卡特博士（Dr. Lauren Pickart）已经去世了。
He discovered GHK-Cu in the collagen tissue, and he's like, "Hey, this might be the factor that controls collagen synthesis and also collagen breakdown." So, he does a bunch of studies.
他在胶原蛋白组织中发现了 GHK-Cu，他说，“嘿，这可能是控制胶原蛋白合成和胶原蛋白分解的因素。”所以，他做了很多研究。
His work is all about this.
他的工作就是关于这个。
Almost all the literature comes from this one lab, a common theme in peptides, unfortunately.
不幸的是，几乎所有文献都来自这个实验室，这是肽的常见主题。
He discovers it in maybe the mid-'70s.
他大概在 70 年代中期发现了这一点。
It's found to be very high in youth in serum levels.
研究发现，年轻人的血清水平非常高。
So, you'll find this in the blood of anyone that we test, up to 200, I think, nanograms, whatever the unit was, and then it gets down to in the levels of the 60s by the age of 65.
所以，你会在我们测试的任何人的血液中发现这一点，我想，最高可达 200 纳克，无论单位是什么，然后到 65 岁时，它会降至 60 多岁的水平。
So, it dramatically decreases with age.
因此，它随着年龄的增长而急剧下降。
It's thought to be maybe what leads to the youthful appearance of young skin, and with age, you lose that effect.
人们认为这可能是让年轻皮肤看起来年轻的原因，但随着年龄的增长，这种效果就会消失。
So, he did a whole bunch of trials, both topically for skin, for hair.
因此，他做了一大堆试验，既有针对皮肤的局部试验，也针对头发的试验。
There's now injectable work being done.
现在正在进行注射工作。
So, similar to the BPC, they would cut rats open, inject GHK copper in a different site, and they'd get faster wound repair-
因此，与 BPC 类似，他们将老鼠切开，在不同部位注射 GHK 铜，这样伤口就能更快修复——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
of the skin tissue from injecting this.
注射此后皮肤组织的损伤。
So, it's become synonymous with BPC-157, TB-500, the Wolverine stack, which someone online just made up.
因此，它已成为 BPC-157、TB-500、Wolverine 堆栈的代名词，这是网上某人刚刚编造的。
And-
还有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's the Wolverine stack?
这就是金刚狼堆栈？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
It's those two, yes.
是的，就是这两个人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
TB-500 and BPC, and alpha.
TB-500 和 BPC，以及 alpha。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sorry.
抱歉。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
TB-500 and BPC-157.
TB-500 和 BPC-157。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And BPC-157.
还有 BPC-157。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Now people will add on GHK copper and call it the Glow Stack.
现在人们将添加 GHK 铜并将其称为 Glow Stack。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The Glow Stack?
发光堆栈？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, interesting.
哦，有趣。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Someone's made it up in the research chemical company ends.
化学研究公司里有人编造出来了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, I like it.
不，我喜欢。
I like it.
我喜欢它。
Glow, Wolverine.
发光，金刚狼。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
There's a big debate about whether or not mixing those together will cause denaturing of different peptides.
关于将它们混合在一起是否会导致不同肽的变性存在很大争议。
That's beyond this discussion.
这超出了本次讨论的范围。
The point is GHK copper, it both upregulates the synthesis side of collagen and the breakdown side of collagen.
重点是GHK铜，它既可以上调胶原蛋白的合成面，也可以上调胶原蛋白的分解面。
So, because when you're remodeling tissue, if you're just rebuilding it, you're going to get very pathogenic structures.
所以，因为当你重塑组织时，如果你只是重建它，你就会得到非常致病的结构。
And if you're just breaking down, you're getting bad structures.
如果你只是崩溃了，你就会得到糟糕的结构。
So, you're doing both.
所以，你两者都在做。
So, the idea is does it, number one, have a skin effect?
那么，第一个问题是，它是否具有集肤效应？
Which it seems to be.
看起来确实如此。
Pickart's compared it to retinol and vitamin C creams and all these things with positive effects, and people anecdotally talk about their crow's feet going away and topically it does good for them.
Pickart 将其与视黄醇和维生素 C 霜以及所有这些具有积极效果的东西进行了比较，人们传闻说他们的鱼尾纹消失了，而且局部来说它对他们有好处。
There was a study on hair that didn't seem too promising.
有一项关于头发的研究似乎不太有希望。
So, the peptide sites try to tell you, "This is better than minoxidil." Mm, not really.
因此，肽位点试图告诉您，“这比米诺地尔更好。”嗯，不是真的。
Maybe it could be an adjunct, and a lot of patients will have that success using that with some of their other topical hair loss agents.
也许它可以作为一种辅助剂，很多患者将其与其他一些外用脱发剂一起使用会取得成功。
And now there's a Chinese group studying it for lung regeneration because there's a lot of connective tissue in the lungs between the different alveoli, and there's some hype there of using GHK copper as a regenerative from that side.
现在有一个中国小组正在研究它的肺再生作用，因为肺部不同肺泡之间有很多结缔组织，并且有人大肆宣传使用 GHK 铜作为从那一侧的再生材料。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How many people are trying to regenerate their lungs?
有多少人正在努力让肺部再生？
Is this for like COPD?
这是针对慢性阻塞性肺病（COPD）吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
COPD and smokers.
慢性阻塞性肺病和吸烟者。
It's a big industry.
这是一个大产业。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe long COVID, from what I hear, is a real thing.
据我所知，也许长期的新冠病毒是真实存在的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Lung damage from COVID.
新冠肺炎造成的肺部损伤。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know some people debate it.
我知道有些人对此有争议。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it seems like there are enough people walking around who were vaccinated and non-vaccinated who claim that they have-
但似乎有足够多的接种过疫苗和未接种疫苗的人声称他们已经-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
symptoms post-COVID that have lasted a long time-
新冠肺炎后持续很长时间的症状
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
AKA long COVID.
又名长期新冠病毒。
So, that might be an interesting place for them to remain peptide curious.
因此，这可能是他们保持肽好奇心的一个有趣的地方。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah, and thymic atrophy is a big part of the, I suspect-
是的，胸腺萎缩是其中的一个重要部分，我怀疑-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Post-COVID?
后疫情时代？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah, because any infection actually leads to, we talk about the thymic involution that happens with age.
是的，因为任何感染实际上都会导致我们谈论随着年龄的增长而发生的胸腺退化。
There's thymic atrophy that happens after every infection.
每次感染后都会发生胸腺萎缩。
The thymus kind of shrinks down, and then the idea is that you recover, you convalesce.
胸腺有点收缩，然后你就会康复，你就会康复。
We used to have convalescent homes for sick patients, and then you regenerate your thymus in the state of health.
我们曾经为病人设立疗养院，然后你在健康状态下再生你的胸腺。
And the problem in modern day, people are stressed out, they're at work, they get sick, and they keep getting sick, so they never get this chance for that thymus rejuvenation.
现代的问题是，人们压力很大，他们在工作，他们生病，他们一直生病，所以他们永远没有机会让胸腺恢复活力。
So, then they're constantly getting hit down, and they're ending up with these diseases of aging that could've maybe been augmented, ameliorated, maybe pushed down, had their thymus function been better in youth.
因此，他们不断地受到打击，最终患上这些衰老疾病，如果他们的胸腺功能在年轻时更好的话，这些疾病可能会得到增强、改善，也许会被抑制。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Raise my hand.
举起我的手。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Professor Brockery.
布罗克利教授。
I'm only half- I really feel like I'm in school.
我只有一半——我真的感觉我在学校。
This is so cool for me.
这对我来说太酷了。
I'm truly in heaven right now.
我现在真的是在天堂。
If you look back at the literature on convalescing, how long were people recommended to take some time off after a cold or a flu or some other-
如果你回顾一下关于康复的文献，人们会建议人们在感冒、流感或其他疾病后休息多长时间——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
That's a good question
这是个好问题
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because I think this would tell us, just like with sort of how long maternity leave-
因为我认为这会告诉我们，就像产假多长一样——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
type things.
键入东西。
The idea now is people are being forced to go back too quickly-
现在的想法是人们被迫太快回去-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in countries like in Scandinavia, perhaps, where they get more time-
在像斯堪的纳维亚半岛这样的国家，也许，在那里他们有更多的时间-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
positive outcomes for baby and mom.
为宝宝和妈妈带来积极的结果。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think it's an interesting and important question because our biology hasn't changed that much-
我认为这是一个有趣且重要的问题，因为我们的生物学并没有改变那么多-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
No
否
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the last couple thousand years-
在过去的几千年里——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
at least.
至少。
After one has a cold, typically people go back as soon as they deem themselves non-infectious-
感冒后，通常人们会在认为自己不具有传染性后立即回去-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which really worries me.
这真的让我很担心。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But do you think people are getting back to work too quickly?
但您是否认为人们恢复工作的速度太快了？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I understand the reasons why, but do you think that adding a stage of really getting back to full functioning without getting into the back to the gym, back to work-
我明白其中的原因，但你是否认为增加一个真正恢复正常运作的阶段，而无需回到健身房，回到工作岗位-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
back to everything could be beneficial for these longevity effects?
回到一切可能对这些长寿效果有益吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Well, if you think about it, nothing that they do once they come back is additive to healing.
好吧，如果你想一想，他们回来后所做的任何事情都不会促进治愈。
Their circadian rhythms are thrown off.
他们的昼夜节律被打乱了。
They're under mal-illuminative lights all day.
他们整天都在昏暗的灯光下。
They're not getting sunlight.
他们得不到阳光。
Their vitamin D levels are atrocious.
他们的维生素 D 水平非常高。
Their blue light exposure at night is high.
他们在夜间的蓝光暴露量很高。
Their stress levels are very high.
他们的压力水平非常高。
Their guts are inflamed from eating hyper-processed, hyper-palatable foods.
他们的肠道因食用过度加工、过度美味的食物而发炎。
They have obesity or they're pre-diabetic.
他们患有肥胖症或处于糖尿病前期。
So, all these things now lead to this inflammatory state, and they just got sick, and their thymus didn't bounce back.
所以，所有这些事情现在导致了这种炎症状态，他们只是生病了，而且他们的胸腺没有反弹。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
So then they get sick the next time in two or three weeks.
所以他们会在两三周后再次生病。
Post-pandemic, a lot of my colleagues were like, "Dude, I get sick three, four times a winter now, before I'd get sick once a winter." So this is where the interest in thymic peptides is very elusive.
大流行后，我的很多同事都说，“伙计，我现在每个冬天都会生病三、四次，之前我每个冬天都会生病一次。”因此，这就是人们对胸腺肽的兴趣非常难以捉摸的地方。
We have to figure out if the STPs or the PTEs are the more interesting ones.
我们必须弄清楚 STP 和 PTE 哪个更有趣。
There's synthetic thymic peptides, thymus alpha-1, thymus beta-4, thymulin, and there's purified thymic extracts.
有合成的胸腺肽、胸腺 α-1、胸腺 β-4、胸腺素，还有纯化的胸腺提取物。
These are the two different research committees that exist when it comes to the thymus.
这是胸腺方面存在的两个不同的研究委员会。
Which one will be more advantageous?
哪一种会更有优势呢？
Vladimir Khavinson came up with the thymulin injectable and oral versions of that, and he had positive immune markers, and he showed CD4 cells come up and CD8 cells improve and all those immune markers become a more youthful state, let's say.
弗拉基米尔·哈文森 (Vladimir Khavinson) 发明了胸腺素注射剂和口服版本，他的免疫标记呈阳性，他显示 CD4 细胞出现，CD8 细胞改善，所有这些免疫标记都变得更加年轻。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
But unfortunately, what's happening here is we don't have thymologists.
但不幸的是，我们没有胸腺学家。
We don't have a branch of medicine that's dedicated to this aspect of immunity.
我们没有专门研究免疫这方面的医学分支。
There's allergy and immunologists, but they focus more on allergies to different agents or very severe immune diseases.
有过敏和免疫学家，但他们更关注对不同药物的过敏或非常严重的免疫疾病。
They're not really addressing the immunity of the general public and how you can boost that.
他们并没有真正解决公众的免疫力以及如何增强免疫力的问题。
And I think post-pandemic, a lot of people started to ask, "Hey, how can I have better immunity for myself?" And now finally, people are starting to talk about the thymus.
我认为大流行后，很多人开始问，“嘿，我怎样才能让自己拥有更好的免疫力？”现在，人们终于开始谈论胸腺了。
Unfortunately, it's been too little too late.
不幸的是，这太少了，也太晚了。
That would've been great during the pandemic because we could've used these thymic-focused interventions, whether it be zinc or thymic peptides or your purified thymic extracts, to augment immunity of the population as a whole.
在大流行期间这会很棒，因为我们可以使用这些以胸腺为重点的干预措施，无论是锌、胸腺肽还是纯化的胸腺提取物，来增强整个人群的免疫力。
Especially because Dr. Khavinson was doing this in the '70s in Russia.
尤其是因为 Khavinson 博士在 70 年代的俄罗斯就这么做了。
Even in Russia, they don't really look kindly to this research.
即使在俄罗斯，他们也不太看好这项研究。
The Soviet-era research has been kind of pushed aside, and it's more Big Pharma style because it's more profitable, because how many thymuses are you going to inject into people, and how many thymuses exist on the planet to make these different peptides from?
苏联时代的研究已经被搁置一边，它更像是大型制药公司的风格，因为它更有利可图，因为你要给人们注射多少胸腺，地球上有多少胸腺可以用来制造这些不同的肽？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But you could inject a lot of synthetic-
但你可以注入大量合成物-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
thymosin alpha TA500-
胸腺素α TA500-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and maybe BPC.
也许还有 BPC。
So Wolverine stack plus thymus now.
所以金刚狼现在叠加胸腺。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So it'd be very interesting if we can get that because now that everyone's getting these Penulo scans and different full-body MRIs-
因此，如果我们能够得到这一点，那就非常有趣了，因为现在每个人都在接受这些 Penulo 扫描和不同的全身 MRI 扫描 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
we can see the thymus size.
我们可以看到胸腺的大小。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I was going to ask you, can I get some sense of my thymic size and output from a blood draw, or do I have to do whole body imaging?
我想问你，我可以通过抽血了解一下我的胸腺大小和输出量，还是我必须做全身成像？
I've done whole body imaging.
我做过全身成像。
It is somewhat costly and that's-
这有点昂贵，那就是-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It is costly
成本高昂
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a barrier for people.
人们的障碍。
But if people can afford it, I actually think it can be useful.
但如果人们能负担得起，我实际上认为它是有用的。
I have a number of friends-
我有很多朋友——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
including a neurosurgeon friend who said that some people are still alive now because they got that scan.
其中包括一位神经外科医生朋友，他说有些人现在还活着，因为他们做了扫描。
A lot of people get scared about what they see.
很多人对他们所看到的东西感到害怕。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wouldn't you rather be scared about what you see and be told that it's okay, than not know it's there and then have a catastrophic event?
难道你不愿意对你所看到的东西感到害怕并被告知没关系，而不是不知道它在那里然后发生灾难性事件吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
We always have a patient that comes in, car accident, young 45-year-old, car accident, comes in, has a pancreatic mass they would have never known about had they not had that accident.
我们总是有一个病人因车祸而进来，45 岁的年轻人，因车祸而来，患有胰腺肿块，如果没有那次事故，他们永远不会知道。
They get a CT scan just to check for any kind of internal bleeding.
他们进行 CT 扫描只是为了检查是否有任何内出血。
They find the pancreatic mass.
他们发现了胰腺肿块。
That gets removed.
那个被删除了。
It ends up being a malignant mass that had they waited six months, they would have had stage four pancreatic cancer and passed away.
它最终变成了一个恶性肿块，如果他们等了六个月，他们就会患上第四期胰腺癌并去世。
So that's the theory.
这就是理论。
There is the concern about false positives and false negatives when it comes to these screening modalities.
当涉及到这些筛查方式时，人们担心假阳性和假阴性。
Any screening modality is not perfect.
任何筛查方式都不是完美的。
So, there's a big debate on whether or not to do these that we'll leave to people and their physicians.
因此，关于是否要做这些工作存在很大的争论，我们将把这些问题留给人们和他们的医生。
But I've been trying to lobby them to give the thymic score to everybody who gets one of these scans.
但我一直在努力游说他们为每个接受这些扫描的人提供胸腺评分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Because they could see, like, hey, can you see where the thymus is at?
因为他们可以看到，就像，嘿，你能看到胸腺在哪里吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Because someone might come in for five different scans over five years.
因为有人可能会在五年内进行五次不同的扫描。
They did a TRT protocol or a GH protocol or whatever it may be, and we could see did that improve thymic status or make it worse, or different infections, different interventions.
他们实施了 TRT 方案或 GH 方案或任何可能的方案，我们可以看到是否改善了胸腺状态或使其变得更糟，或者不同的感染、不同的干预措施。
That'd be very interesting to kind of tease out.
梳理一下这会非常有趣。
On blood tests, we've been trying to work with a couple different labs to figure out a thymic score.
在血液测试方面，我们一直在尝试与几个不同的实验室合作来计算出胸腺评分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
The most commercially available is going to be a lymphocyte count, which will look at CD4 to CD8.
最商业化的是淋巴细胞计数，它将检查 CD4 至 CD8。
There's an ideal CD4 to CD8 ratio that's more youthful.
有一个更年轻的理想 CD4 与 CD8 比率。
You don't want to have more CD8 cells than CD4 cells.
您不希望 CD8 细胞多于 CD4 细胞。
You don't want to have too few of either of them.
您不想拥有其中任何一个太少。
That goes more into the HIV literature.
这更多地涉及到艾滋病毒文献。
But the most simple thing that almost every single person has gotten done but no one's looked at is their lymphocyte-to-monocyte ratio on their CBC.
但几乎每个人都做过但没有人关注的最简单的事情是 CBC 上的淋巴细胞与单核细胞的比率。
So almost everybody's gotten a CBC with diff.
所以几乎每个人都得到了带有 diff 的 CBC。
It's a $3 lab test.
这是一个 3 美元的实验室测试。
If you type in any disorder, cardiovascular disease, cancer, diabetes, and put lymphocytes and monocyte ratio, there's a study that will talk about how low lymphocytes and monocyte ratio is associated with poor outcomes when it comes to that disease state.
如果您输入任何疾病、心血管疾病、癌症、糖尿病，并输入淋巴细胞和单核细胞的比率，有一项研究将讨论低淋巴细胞和单核细胞比率与该疾病状态的不良结果之间的关系。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
So, it gives you kind of a general gestalt of what's going on with immunity because you want a high absolute lymphocyte count, not too high because it's associated with lymphomas.
因此，它可以让您对免疫发生的情况有一个大致的了解，因为您需要高绝对淋巴细胞计数，而不是太高，因为它与淋巴瘤有关。
But somewhere, when you look at the charts, around 1,000 total lymphocytes is where the hazard of different cancer sites starts to increase.
但在某个地方，当您查看图表时，会发现大约 1,000 个淋巴细胞总数是不同癌症部位的危险开始增加的地方。
A young healthy person will be between 1,500 and 33,000 total lymphocytes.
年轻健康人的淋巴细胞总数为 1,500 至 33,000 个。
And you want the ratio to the monocytes.
你想要的是与单核细胞的比率。
Monocytes are different types of immune cells that are more inflammatory.
单核细胞是不同类型的免疫细胞，更具炎症性。
So, if you have a robust amount of lymphocytes with a low amount of monocytes, that suggests you have a more, let's say, ready and robust immune state.
因此，如果您有大量的淋巴细胞和少量的单核细胞，这表明您有一个更准备好的和更强大的免疫状态。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Interesting.
有趣的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
So $3 lab test that everybody gets.
所以每个人都会得到 3 美元的实验室测试。
Almost every lab testing company now checks it, and no one really reports on it.
现在几乎每个实验室测试公司都会对此进行检查，但没有人真正对此进行报告。
But you can kind of stratify people into disease risk based on that score.
但你可以根据该分数将人们划分为疾病风险。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Out of 100 randomly polled physicians who received their license in the United States, how many of them probably know what you just described?
在 100 名在美国获得执照的医生中进行随机调查，其中有多少人可能知道您刚才所描述的内容？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Zero.
零。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Why not?
为什么不呢？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
It's like rabbit holes that you kind of go down and find out.
这就像兔子洞一样，你需要深入下去才能找到答案。
I've been lobbying everyone in the hospital to look at this.
我一直在游说医院里的每个人都看看这个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it's very easy, right?
但这很容易，对吧？
The data are there.
数据就在那里。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
No, I look at-
不，我看——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not like you're saying, oh, you got to do all this additional work, you got to bill insurance.
这并不是说，哦，你必须做所有这些额外的工作，你必须支付保险费用。
I mean, this is-
我的意思是，这是——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
No, it's all there
不，一切都在那里
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
all there.
都在那里。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
I started to care about the thymus post-pandemic because I noticed people's lymphocyte counts were lower.
我开始关心大流行后的胸腺，因为我注意到人们的淋巴细胞计数较低。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
And I could notice that anecdotally or looking at small data sets like, hey, people who had lower lymphocyte counts had worse disease or people that had cancers in their late 30s or early 40s.
我可以注意到，轶事或查看小数据集，例如，淋巴细胞计数较低的人病情更严重，或者在 30 岁末或 40 岁出头患有癌症的人。
I'm like, huh, they all had lower lymphocyte counts.
我想，嗯，他们的淋巴细胞计数都较低。
So, I started to dig into the literature, and I'm lobbying a lot of the hematologists and infectious disease doctors in my hospital to start to look at this.
因此，我开始深入研究文献，并游说我医院的许多血液科医生和传染病医生开始研究这个问题。
Unfortunately, they kind of are textbook.
不幸的是，它们有点像教科书。
It's not part of the guidelines.
它不是指南的一部分。
It's in a space that's not pathology So it's not clear like, hey, if I check your lymphocyte-to-monocyte count right now, is it going to change my management of you in the hospital today?
它处于一个非病理学的空间所以不清楚，嘿，如果我现在检查你的淋巴细胞到单核细胞的计数，它会改变我今天在医院对你的管理吗？
Not really.
并不真地。
It's more of a long-term look.
这更像是一种长远的眼光。
So that's where all these direct-to-health, direct-to-consumer companies have an opportunity to kind of modulate the way medicine is practiced in the United States.
因此，所有这些直接面向健康、直接面向消费者的公司都有机会调整美国的医疗实践方式。
But if we have this metric that we can study, why not use it and then try different interventions and see what actually helps people?
但如果我们有这个可以研究的指标，为什么不使用它，然后尝试不同的干预措施，看看什么真正可以帮助人们呢？
We've gotten sometimes peptides.
我们有时会得到肽。
We've had people go from a four-to-one lymphocyte-to-monocyte ratio to an eight-to-one ratio.
我们已经让人们将淋巴细胞与单核细胞的比例从四比一提高到八比一。
Now, is that significant?
现在，这重要吗？
That seems to be significant.
这似乎意义重大。
But no one's really kind of discussing it, unfortunately.
但不幸的是，没有人真正讨论这个问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know who I'm putting my vote in for surgeon general- ...
我知道我会把票投给谁作为卫生局局长——...
if ever there's a turnover.
如果有营业额的话。
I haven't explored the most recent person, so that's not a comment on her.
我还没有探索过最近的人，所以这不是对她的评论。
I know they elected to not vote Casey in, so that's truly not a mention.
我知道他们选择不投票给凯西，所以这确实没有提及。
I haven't done-- But I think your voice should be heard far and wide on these things.
我还没有这样做——但我认为在这些事情上你的声音应该被广泛听到。
More data is good.
更多数据是好事。
The scientist in me just says, you got the data, data could be informative-
我内心的科学家只是说，你得到了数据，数据可以提供信息-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
take a look.
看看吧。
There's a category of peptides such as growth hormone secretagogues-
有一类肽，例如生长激素促分泌素 -
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
tesamorelin, ipamorelin, MK-677, that we could do the deep dive-
tesamorelin、ipamorelin、MK-677，我们可以进行深入研究-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
on all those, but I'll just batch those.
所有这些，但我只会批量处理这些。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And maybe we parse them a little bit.
也许我们稍微解析一下它们。
And things like melanotans.
还有黑素之类的东西。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
These are, to my understanding, FDA-approved for certain indications, so they've gone through the randomized control trials for growth hormone secretagogues for small stature in kids, they might use it for that, or for post-surgical burn recovery.
据我了解，这些药物已获得 FDA 批准用于某些适应症，因此他们已经针对身材矮小的儿童进行了生长激素促分泌素的随机对照试验，他们可能会将其用于此目的，或用于手术后烧伤恢复。
I think-
我认为——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Tesamorelin
特沙莫林
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
some are for HIV
有些是针对艾滋病毒的
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
For HIV lipid distribution.
用于 HIV 脂质分布。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
HIV.
艾滋病毒。
So the idea here, the sort of framework that I'm teeing up, is that these molecules have been explored-
所以这里的想法，我正在建立的那种框架，是这些分子已经被探索过——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for their known biological function in animals.
因其在动物中的已知生物学功能。
It's established.
成立了。
These molecules lead to an increase in growth hormone above what would normally be secreted.
这些分子导致生长激素的增加高于正常分泌的水平。
They do it indirectly, so they're sort of the gas pedal on that system.
他们间接地做到这一点，所以他们就像该系统上的油门踏板。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Growth hormone secretagogue, cause more growth hormone to be secreted, not actual growth hormone.
生长激素促分泌剂，导致分泌更多的生长激素，而不是实际的生长激素。
They vary in terms of how much they stimulate hunger or don't stimulate hunger.
它们在刺激饥饿或不刺激饥饿的程度上有所不同。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And on and on.
不断地。
You should take them, if you're going to take them before sleep, but not having eaten in the last two or three hours, all that stuff.
如果你打算在睡觉前服用它们，但在过去的两三个小时内没有吃东西，那么你应该服用它们。
We can save ourselves some time here.
我们可以在这里节省一些时间。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Most people who are taking these things, whether they get it from pharma or compounding pharmacy or gray market, research purposes only-
大多数服用这些东西的人，无论他们是从制药公司、复合药房还是灰色市场购买的，仅用于研究目的-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or black market, God forbid, they're doing this because they want to lose fat, gain muscle, recover from exercise more quickly, and look more youthful.
或者黑市，上帝禁止，他们这样做是因为他们想减掉脂肪，增加肌肉，更快地从锻炼中恢复，并且看起来更年轻。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can we assume that those effects are real, given that they were FDA-approved for other things?
鉴于 FDA 已批准这些效果用于其他用途，我们是否可以假设这些效果是真实的？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So let's parse out the effects and the different types of compounds that exist in this category.
因此，让我们分析一下该类别中存在的效果和不同类型的化合物。
So there's the ghrelin side, the ghrelin agonist, like MK-677, not FDA-approved, orally available pill that makes you bleed out growth hormone.
因此，有胃饥饿素方面，即胃饥饿素激动剂，如 MK-677，不是 FDA 批准的口服药丸，它会导致生长激素流失。
Like, you make so much growth hormone in response to that.
就像，你会为此产生大量的生长激素。
And in non-pulsatile fashion.
并且以非脉动方式。
Growth hormone's a very circadian hormone that gets released in the first 90 minutes of a slow-wave sleep.
生长激素是一种昼夜节律性激素，会在慢波睡眠的前 90 分钟内释放。
And if you miss that big pulse, you're going to get small pulses throughout the day.
如果你错过了大脉搏，你一整天都会有小脉搏。
The question is, is that big pulse better than small little, mini pulses throughout the day?
问题是，全天的大脉冲是否比小脉冲更好？
These secretagogues will address the broader category of something called somatopause.
这些促分泌剂将解决更广泛的“躯体停经”类别。
So you've heard of menopause, you've heard of maybe andropause.
你听说过更年期，也许也听说过男性更年期。
Somatopause is this event that happens somewhere in the 30s where growth hormone production dramatically decreases.
躯体更年期是指在 30 多岁的某个时候发生的事件，此时生长激素的产生急剧减少。
So if we kind of paint a picture, your pineal gland's aging before puberty, your thymus right after puberty, in your 20s.
因此，如果我们描绘一幅图画，你的松果体在青春期之前就开始衰老，你的胸腺在青春期之后，也就是你 20 多岁的时候就开始衰老。
And in your 30s, you're having somatopause.
在你 30 多岁的时候，你就会经历躯体更替期。
That's where your growth hormone production is decreasing.
这就是您的生长激素分泌减少的地方。
You're having, they call it adrenopause, where your adrenals stop making as much DHEA and the different ratio of cortisol.
你正在经历，他们称之为肾上腺绝经期，你的肾上腺停止产生尽可能多的 DHEA 和不同比例的皮质醇。
And then you're having menopause, andropause, and all the other chronic conditions.
然后你就会患上更年期、男性更年期和所有其他慢性疾病。
So that's like your first 50 years of your life, that's what you have to expect.
这就像你人生的前 50 年，这是你必须期待的。
The question has been, and it's a big debate in the medical community, is replacing growth hormone and addressing somatopause useful?
问题是，替代生长激素和解决躯体更年期问题有用吗？这在医学界引起了很大的争论。
Because you can measure if we had your IGF-1 when you were 18, and your IGF-1 when you're 30 and 50, that's going to be a dramatic decrease in that.
因为你可以在你 18 岁时测量你的 IGF-1，在你 30 岁和 50 岁时测量你的 IGF-1，这将是一个急剧的下降。
Should we now replenish this IGF-1?
我们现在应该补充 IGF-1 吗？
The proponents will say IGF-1's important for skin and good quality sleep and for muscle recovery and joints and all these things.
支持者会说 IGF-1 对于皮肤、优质睡眠、肌肉恢复和关节以及所有这些都很重要。
And those are true.
这些都是真的。
We know growth hormone has all these beneficial effects on that.
我们知道生长激素对此有所有这些有益的影响。
We also know growth hormone is thymoregenerative because it stimulates the regrowth of an aged, involuted thymus gland based on Dr. Fahey's work.
我们还知道生长激素具有胸腺再生作用，因为根据费伊博士的研究，它可以刺激老化、退化的胸腺的再生。
The question is, is there an oncogenic signal when it comes to growth hormone?
问题是，生长激素是否存在致癌信号？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Does it cause cancer?
它会致癌吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sorry.
抱歉。
Can it promote-
能不能促进——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
more rapid growth of existing cancer?
现有癌症增长得更快吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes, because it's-
是的，因为它是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't think anyone thinks it causes cancer
我认为没有人认为它会导致癌症
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
it's not mutagenic.
它不具有致突变性。
This is the big debate when people are like, "BPC causes cancer." There's no mutagenic effect from BPC.
当人们说“BPC 会导致癌症”时，这是一场大争论。 BPC 没有致突变作用。
Is BPC like smoking a cigarette?
BPC就像抽烟一样吗？
Smoking a cigarette, you get carcinogenic damage to the lung tissue that causes a cancer later on.
吸烟会对肺组织造成致癌损伤，进而导致癌症。
There's no direct mechanism that would link any of these peptides to a carcinogenic effect.
没有直接的机制将这些肽与致癌作用联系起来。
But is it a growth factor that could grow a cancer?
但它是一种可能导致癌症的生长因子吗？
Potentially.
有潜力。
There isn't good data showing that.
没有好的数据表明这一点。
The debate may be like, hey, by boosting thymic function from growth hormone, are you increasing immunity and then immune surveillance of different tumors?
争论可能是这样的，嘿，通过生长激素增强胸腺功能，你是否会增强免疫力，然后增强对不同肿瘤的免疫监视？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
And therefore decreasing and then causing the scale.
因此减少并导致规模扩大。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
There's a big debate of whether growth hormone's even beneficial when it comes to aging because growth hormone does grow certain tissues.
关于生长激素是否对衰老有益存在很大争议，因为生长激素确实会生长某些组织。
There's models where people are growth hormone deficient and live a lot longer.
在一些模型中，生长激素缺乏的人却寿命更长。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
And growth hormone is not positive when it comes to a cardiometabolic perspective.
从心脏代谢的角度来看，生长激素并不积极。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And in species like dogs, where there's tremendous variation in the amount-
而在像狗这样的物种中，其数量存在巨大差异——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of IGF-1 that's made between, say, a chihuahua and a Great Dane, the breed that makes more IGF-1, downstream of growth hormone, of course, lives a lot shorter lives-
比如说，吉娃娃狗和大丹犬之间产生的 IGF-1，这种品种可以产生更多的 IGF-1（生长激素的下游），当然寿命要短得多——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
than smaller versions of the same species.
比同一物种的较小版本。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you want a dog around for a long time, get a chihuahua.
所以如果你想要一只狗陪伴很长时间，就养一只吉娃娃吧。
You want a real dog, get a-- Excuse me.
你想要一只真正的狗，就买一只——对不起。
You want a dog that lives a long time, get a Great Dane or a bulldog.
如果你想要一只长寿的狗，可以养一只大丹犬或斗牛犬。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
There's that whole discussion of what's better, and then you get into antagonistic pleiotropy.
有一个关于什么是更好的完整讨论，然后你就进入了对抗性多效性。
Is this something that's good in youth but detrimental for longevity, or is it for longevity?
这是年轻时好但不利于长寿的东西，还是不利于长寿的东西？
And that's the big debate in the longevity field, whatever that field is, of whether or not to use growth hormone.
这是长寿领域（无论哪个领域）关于是否使用生长激素的大争论。
So now growth hormone's become very difficult to acquire through clinical prescriptions after the whole anabolic steroids act and Barry Bonds and all that stuff.
因此，在整个合成代谢类固醇和巴里·邦兹（Barry Bonds）等药物发挥作用之后，现在通过临床处方获得生长激素变得非常困难。
So people have now shifted to using the secretagogues in lieu of growth hormone.
因此，人们现在已经转向使用促分泌素来代替生长激素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Also, growth hormone is very expensive.
另外，生长激素非常昂贵。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Very expensive.
非常贵。
Yeah, like Pfizer's pens are in the thousands of dollars.
是的，就像辉瑞的笔要几千美元一样。
So if you're rich, you can afford to have that growth hormone habit.
因此，如果你有钱，你就有能力养成使用生长激素的习惯。
But otherwise, a secretagogue costs less than 100 bucks.
但除此之外，一个秘秘师的成本还不到 100 美元。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm told that growth hormone doesn't shut down one's own production.
我听说生长激素不会停止人体自身的生产。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah, it's not a strong shutdown like the testicular axis.
是的，它不像睾丸轴那样有强烈的关闭作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm also told that when people take it, they feel awesome.
我还被告知，当人们服用它时，他们会感觉棒极了。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is scary to say on a podcast because you're like, "Oh, no, I don't want everyone running out and-"
在播客上说这很可怕，因为你会说，“哦，不，我不想让每个人都跑出去——”
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
young people are already making tons of it.
年轻人已经赚了很多钱。
But that combination of looking younger, feeling great, cognitively feeling great.
但看起来更年轻、感觉很棒、认知感觉很棒的结合。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have some friends who've taken an IU a night-
我有一些朋友吃了 IU 一晚-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or even two IUs a night, five nights a week for years.
甚至每晚两个 IU，多年来每周五个晚上。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you go, "Hey, aren't you worried about some of the tumor effects?" And they're like, "You just function at a whole other level." And then you go, "Oh, God, that's really enticing." But even with great imaging, you don't know if you've got tumors-
然后你说：“嘿，你不担心一些肿瘤效应吗？”他们就像是，“你只是在一个完全不同的层面上运作。”然后你会说：“天啊，这真是太诱人了。”但即使有很好的成像，你也不知道自己是否患有肿瘤——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
No
否
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that you're accelerating in that case.
在这种情况下你正在加速。
So it's kind of scary.
所以这有点可怕。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah, and we don't have a data set that would show that.
是的，我们没有数据集可以证明这一点。
Where's the body count from growth hormone?
生长激素的人体计数在哪里？
The bodybuilder body counts are from other compounds, not necessarily-
健美运动员的身体计数来自其他化合物，不一定-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, they're doing everything.
哦，他们正在做一切。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
When you go into a gym, you can tell who's doing growth hormone versus not based on-
当你走进健身房时，你可以根据以下因素来判断谁使用了生长激素，谁没有使用生长激素——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How so?
怎么会这样呢？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
their skin shining.
他们的皮肤闪闪发光。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
You see a 45-year-old dude that's through somatopause but has perfect young skin and there's Botox and other things involved, but you can tell there's that growth hormone look.
你看到一个 45 岁的家伙，虽然已经经历了躯体更年期，但皮肤却很完美，年轻，注射了肉毒杆菌和其他东西，但你可以看出他有生长激素的样子。
The hair looks a little bit healthier.
头发看起来健康一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Because growth hormone favors the conversion of T4 to T3, so it changes the thyroid dynamics.
由于生长激素有利于 T4 向 T3 的转化，因此它改变了甲状腺的动态。
It can have pro-testicular effects as well from the IGF-1 perspective.
从 IGF-1 的角度来看，它也具有促睾丸作用。
So there's a lot of youthful effects to it.
所以它有很多年轻化的效果。
The question is, has that been a good idea to replace it?
问题是，更换它是个好主意吗？
Traditionally, the medical field's kind of anti using these secretagogues to augment somatopause.
传统上，医学界反对使用这些促分泌剂来增强躯体更年期。
But I think there's going to be a role for it, perhaps cyclically.
但我认为它将会发挥作用，也许是周期性的。
Because I don't think anything in nature is year-round.
因为我认为自然界中没有任何东西是一年四季的。
So what if you did a cyclical cycle of, and this is not medical advice, but just theoretical, cyclical cycle of tesamorelin for a certain amount of time, got your IGF-1 to a certain level under clinician guidance, measured your thymus on an MRI before and after, and then you saw that the thymus grew and you had higher CD4, CD8 count.
那么，如果您进行了循环周期（这不是医疗建议，而只是理论上的替沙莫林循环周期）一段时间，在临床医生的指导下使您的 IGF-1 达到一定水平，前后通过 MRI 测量您的胸腺，然后您看到胸腺生长，CD4、CD8 计数更高，那又怎么样呢？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
That would be pretty interesting.
那会很有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It'd be interesting, a few years back, and I've told this story publicly before, I tried sermorelin.
这很有趣，几年前，我之前公开讲述过这个故事，我尝试过舍莫林。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is different, obviously, than tesamorelin, but similar in the sense-
显然，这与 tesamorelin 不同，但在意义上相似 -
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the endpoint you're seeking is more growth hormone, IGF-1.
您正在寻找的终点是更多的生长激素 IGF-1。
And it dramatically increased my deep sleep.
它极大地增加了我的深度睡眠。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And nuked my REM sleep.
并破坏了我的快速眼动睡眠。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was like the opposite of pineal lock.
这就像松果体锁的反面。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Take them together.
把他们带到一起。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, didn't try that.
嗯，没试过。
The other thing that it did, and the reason I halted it almost right away, because I was really just running it as an experiment on myself, was that it spiked my PSA, my prostate-
它所做的另一件事，以及我几乎立即停止它的原因，因为我实际上只是将它作为对自己的实验，是它使我的 PSA，我的前列腺 -
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
specific antigen.
特异性抗原。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It had always been in range and relatively low.
它一直在范围内并且相对较低。
Boom, spiked it.
繁荣，尖刺它。
And I was like, "Whoa, that's wild," and I don't want that.
我当时想，“哇，这太疯狂了，”我不想这样。
Came off it.
摆脱了它。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It reverted-
它恢复了——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to a low level.
到一个低水平。
So that was pretty striking.
所以这非常引人注目。
So obviously, a hyperresponsive prostate to sermorelin.
很明显，前列腺对舍莫林过敏。
Maybe it wouldn't have been to tesamorelin, et cetera.
也许不会是tesamorelin，等等。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But those are the kinds of things that you worry about.
但这些正是您担心的事情。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
It might just be the growth hormone itself.
可能只是生长激素本身。
The increased growth hormone secretion-
生长激素分泌增加——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a good point
这是一个好点
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
as you age, your prostate gets bigger.
随着年龄的增长，你的前列腺会变大。
The bane of every man is going to be BPH.
每个男人的祸根都是前列腺增生症。
That's going to be the reason that you hate your life in your 60s and 70s because you have to-
这将是你讨厌 60 岁和 70 岁生活的原因，因为你必须——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, man
哦，伙计
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
wake up at night to pee.
晚上醒来小便。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh.
哦。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
And then when you're at an amusement park, you're going to have to find the nearest bathroom very frequently because your bladder size is depressed.
然后，当您在游乐园时，您将不得不经常寻找最近的卫生间，因为您的膀胱尺寸会变小。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They'll work it out by then.
到时候他们会解决的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
They'll work it out.
他们会解决的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
There's some prostate peptides we're looking at.
我们正在研究一些前列腺肽。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Thanks.
谢谢。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Well, solutions-
嗯，解决方案——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's young guy, old guy taunting.
有年轻人，有老人在嘲笑。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You got 10 more years before you're miserable.
在你变得悲惨之前，你还有10年的时间。
Thanks.
谢谢。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
There's prostate peptides that Cavinton looked at that we're trying to translate some of that literature.
卡文顿研究了前列腺肽，我们正在尝试翻译其中的一些文献。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You'll save me.
你会救我的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
No, there's people, this guy named Brendan Henry, who's translated thousands of these papers from Russian to English, so shout out to him.
不，有人，这个叫布伦丹·亨利的人，他将数千篇这样的论文从俄语翻译成英语，所以向他大声喊叫。
No affiliation, but he's translated a lot of this Russian literature and helped us from that, so that's great.
没有隶属关系，但他翻译了很多俄罗斯文学作品并为我们提供了帮助，所以这很棒。
But the prostate is growing with age under the control of DHT and estrogen, and then probably growth hormone.
但前列腺在 DHT 和雌激素的控制下随着年龄的增长而生长，然后可能是在生长激素的控制下。
So the question is, do you want to be messing with that and increasing the size of that?
所以问题是，你想搞乱它并增加它的大小吗？
There's concerns about cardiac growth, liver growth, so there's all these things.
人们担心心脏生长、肝脏生长，所以有所有这些事情。
But also growth hormone and the secretagogues have a negative effect on insulin sensitivity.
但生长激素和促分泌素也会对胰岛素敏感性产生负面影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Some people's A1Cs will usually jump.
有些人的 A1C 通常会跳动。
The joke in the bodybuilding community is you have to get lean enough and healthy enough to be able to take growth hormone.
健美界有个笑话，你必须变得足够瘦、足够健康，才能服用生长激素。
What's happening-
发生了什么事-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, growth hormone or the secretagogues?
哦，生长激素还是促分泌素？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
The growth hormone more so.
生长激素更是如此。
The se-
该SE-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It can make you insulin insensitive.
它会使您对胰岛素不敏感。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes, especially with more like tesamorelin, especially when combined with ipamorelin.
是的，尤其是与替沙莫林类似的药物，尤其是与伊帕莫林联合使用时。
Sermorelin's kind of a weaker GHRH.
舍莫林的 GHRH 较弱。
Tesamorelin, especially when combined with ipamorelin.
替沙莫林，尤其是与伊帕莫林联合使用时。
Tesamorelin is FDA approved, ipamorelin is not.
Tesamorelin 已获 FDA 批准，而伊帕瑞林则未获批准。
The GHRH versus GHRP, kind of in the weeds there, but those two together can create a giant growth hormone response where your IGF-1 is in the 380s, 390s.
GHRH 与 GHRP 的比较，有点像那里的杂草，但这两者一起可以产生巨大的生长激素反应，使您的 IGF-1 处于 380 年代、390 年代。
So that's quite high, like puberty levels of IGF-1.
所以这个水平相当高，就像青春期 IGF-1 的水平一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you're hungry all the time.
而且你一直很饿。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
With MK, for sure.
有了 MK，当然可以。
With tesamorelin, so tesamorelin has more fidelity, less ghrelin effects, especially because you can have ghrelin effects, prolactin effects, and cortisol effects from whenever you're mucking around with the pituitary, because they're all in that same area.
有了替沙莫林，所以替沙莫林具有更高的保真度，更少的生长素释放肽效应，特别是因为当你在垂体周围活动时，你可能会产生生长素释放肽效应、催乳素效应和皮质醇效应，因为它们都在同一区域。
I think MK bleeds out the worst when it comes to having the other effects.
我认为 MK 在其他效果方面表现最差。
MK is not a peptide.
MK 不是肽。
It's a non-peptide-
它是一种非肽-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm
嗯
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
GHRP.
GHRP。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
What's happened now is people are now stacking their GLP-1 as their insulin sensitivity tool, their growth hormone or their GHRH-
现在发生的情况是，人们现在将 GLP-1 作为胰岛素敏感性工具、生长激素或 GHRH-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
and their androgen modulation therapies as this trinity stack-
以及他们的雄激素调节疗法作为这三位一体的叠加-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Trinity stack?
三体堆栈？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
to get very fit, very healthy quickly.
快速变得非常健康。
So a lot of these transformations you see in CEOs and celebrities and stuff is using a combination of those three things.
因此，你在首席执行官和名人身上看到的很多转变都是这三件事的结合。
Your TRT plus maybe Anovar with tirzepatide or retatrutide, whatever it may be, and then using a growth hormone modulation with your, if you can afford growth hormone or tesamorelin, ipamorelin.
您的 TRT 可能会加上 Anovar 与替西帕肽或瑞他鲁肽，无论它是什么，然后使用生长激素调节剂（如果您能负担得起生长激素或替沙莫林、伊帕莫林）。
And you're seeing people lose a lot of fat, gain a lot of muscle in short amounts of time.
你会看到人们在短时间内减掉大量脂肪，增加大量肌肉。
Is that healthy?
这样健康吗？
We'll find out.
我们会知道的。
But that is the celebrity protocol.
但这就是名人的礼仪。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very interesting.
非常有趣。
And I'm guessing that for women, it's the combination of growth hormone secretagogue plus something like, and we'll talk about these now, retatrutide-
我猜对女性来说，它是生长激素促分泌素加上类似药物的组合，我们现在就讨论这些，瑞他鲁肽-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or one of the other GLPs.
或其他 GLP 之一。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm going to acknowledge because people are going to start throwing darts at me about this.
我会承认这一点，因为人们会开始向我投掷飞镖。
Yes, retatrutide is hitting things other than GLP pathway.
是的，瑞他鲁肽正在打击 GLP 途径以外的其他因素。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's also GIP and glucagon pathway.
这也是 GIP 和胰高血糖素途径。
But most people put it under the category of-
但大多数人将其归为以下类别：
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
GLP.
良好实验室规范。
So you are encyclopedic, my friend.
所以你真是百科全书，我的朋友。
I really, really appreciate the clarity and the thoughtfulness of your answers on these.
我真的非常感谢您对这些问题的清晰和深思熟虑的回答。
And as people are probably becoming aware, we could spend 50 hours.
人们可能已经意识到，我们可以花 50 个小时。
Talking about selank, about cerebral lysin.
谈论塞兰克，谈论脑溶素。
I think we will have to have you back to explore those other ones.
我想我们必须让你回来探索其他的。
There are a few other things I'd like to talk about-
还有一些事情我想谈谈——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
if you're willing to give us the time.
如果您愿意给我们时间。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Of course.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We should close the hatch on GHK-Cu.
我们应该关闭 GHK-Cu 上的舱门。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I misspoke.
我说错了。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I saw it in your eyes, you're like, "He said it wrong.
我从你的眼睛里看到了这一点，你就像是，“他说错了。
Do I correct him?" Yes, correct me.
我要纠正他吗？”是的，纠正我。
Everyone else does.
其他人都这样做。
GHK-Cu-
GHK-铜-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for the collagen effects, it's available in a lot of creams.
为了发挥胶原蛋白的功效，很多面霜中都含有它。
Assuming it's real-
假设这是真的——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
assuming people are doing this medically supervised, is there any benefit to putting it directly on crow's feet or other wrinkles or face versus injecting it for it to go systemically?
假设人们在医疗监督下进行此操作，那么与全身注射相比，将其直接涂抹在鱼尾纹或其他皱纹或面部是否有任何好处？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I think if you have a well-formulated topical that's actually not broken down, because from these research chem sites, they sell topicals now because everyone's in skincare.
我认为如果你有一个配方良好的外用产品，实际上没有被分解，因为从这些研究化学网站来看，他们现在销售外用产品，因为每个人都在护肤。
They're poor quality.
它们的质量很差。
They're not even blue.
它们甚至不是蓝色的。
The GHK should be blue, but that is-
GHK 应该是蓝色的，但那是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Should be blue?
应该是蓝色的？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
From the copper, yeah.
来自铜，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, okay.
哦，好吧。
That makes sense.
这是有道理的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My copper pills are blue.
我的铜丸是蓝色的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There you go.
就这样吧。
That makes sense.
这是有道理的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah, see?
是啊，看到了吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
But that doesn't mean that it's real.
但这并不意味着它是真实的。
It could be copper that's fallen out of the complex of the GHK.
从 GHK 复合体中掉下来的可能是铜。
So yeah, you want a well-formulated, a good skincare brand that knows how to formulate these and deliver them into the skin, because that's another thing.
所以，是的，你需要一个配方良好、良好的护肤品牌，知道如何配制这些成分并将它们输送到皮肤中，因为这是另一回事。
So like-
所以就像-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
every skincare brand has their now GHK formulation-
现在每个护肤品牌都有他们的GHK配方-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
because people are demanding it.
因为人们要求它。
But it's been around for 30, 40 years on topical.
但这个话题已经存在了 30、40 年了。
The injectable is not FDA approved, of course.
当然，这种注射剂并未获得 FDA 批准。
I think it's going to be on the second round of discussions when it comes to the peptides coming back to category one.
我认为当涉及到回到第一类的肽时，这将是第二轮讨论。
The first round is going to have the seven peptides, BPC, TB, et cetera.
第一轮将有七种肽，BPC、TB 等等。
I think the second round is going to look at GHK.
我认为第二轮将关注GHK。
I don't imagine that that makes it.
我不认为这能成功。
There's no good human data on that.
没有关于这方面的良好的人类数据。
But topically, there's great human data on different aesthetic outcomes, especially when coupled with red light therapy, because it seems that the blue pigment and the red light seem to be synergistic in that effect.
但就主题而言，关于不同的美学效果有大量的人类数据，特别是与红光疗法结合使用时，因为蓝色颜料和红光似乎在这种效果中具有协同作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
There's also some literature when it comes to GHK-Cu for post-UV damage.
还有一些文献谈到 GHK-Cu 对于紫外线后损伤的作用。
So people that are sun-friendly-
所以喜欢阳光的人——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
can use GHK-Cu topically to alleviate some of the photo damage.
可以局部使用 GHK-Cu 来减轻一些光损伤。
Of course, dermatologists are going to get mad at us and say, "Just use sunscreen, and you don't get the damage in the first place." But for people that aren't as responsible, you can use GHK-Cu as a post-sunscreen.
当然，皮肤科医生会对我们生气，说：“只要使用防晒霜，你就不会受到伤害。”但对于不那么负责任的人，您可以使用 GHK-Cu 作为防晒霜。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or listen to the derms who are slightly more sun positive.
或者听听那些对阳光更积极的皮肤科医生的意见。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Especially low UV index-
特别低的紫外线指数-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
sun, when the sun is low in the sky.
太阳，当太阳在天空中很低的时候。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Dr. Abud Bakri is perhaps the only other person on the planet besides my friend Samar Hattar, who's been on this podcast, who's as excited about circadian biology as an organizing feature- ...
阿布德·巴克里 (Abud Bakri) 博士可能是除了我的朋友萨马尔·哈塔 (Samar Hattar) 之外，这个星球上唯一一个对昼夜节律生物学和组织功能同样感到兴奋的人——他一直在这个播客中。
as I am.
就像我一样。
There are a couple others out there, but in terms of people who are really grounded in what's real, I put him in that category whether he likes it or not.
还有其他一些人，但就那些真正扎根于真实的人而言，无论他喜欢与否，我都将他归入这一类别。
So people are taking GHK-Cu cream, putting it on, and then doing red light therapy.
所以人们正在服用 GHK-Cu 霜，涂上它，然后进行红光疗法。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there are human data that perhaps can augment some of the collagen reparative-
并且有人类数据也许可以增强一些胶原蛋白修复作用-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
effects.
影响。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Some of the photo aging effects, some of the effects of aging, when compared to different retinols and stuff like that.
与不同的视黄醇之类的东西相比，有一些光老化效应，一些老化效应。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
I think the consensus in the field now is to use it with the rest of your skincare routine, not in place of it.
我认为现在该领域的共识是将它与您的其他护肤程序一起使用，而不是代替它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
But a lot of people, especially bros that have never been into skincare are now into skincare because of GHK.
但很多人，尤其是从来没有接触过护肤品的兄弟，因为GHK而开始接触护肤品。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh my goodness.
天哪。
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah, so-
是啊，所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay
好的
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
there's that, but it's promising.
就是这样，但它很有希望。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The bros are into skincare.
兄弟俩都热衷于护肤。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There'll not be a documentary before long.
不久之后不会有纪录片了。
What do you call that, the manosphere?
你管它叫什么，马诺层？
It's like the skinosphere?
就像皮肤层一样？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Well, with looksmaxxing, it's the looksmaxxing peptide now, GHK, because all these guys that are into looksmaxxing will use GHK topically.
好吧，对于looksmaxxing，现在是lookmaxxing肽，GHK，因为所有这些热衷lookmaxxing的人都会局部使用GHK。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're dipping their hammer in GHK Cu and tapping themselves on the...
他们将锤子浸入 GHK Cu 中并敲击自己......
By the way, if you want great long wavelength red, near-infrared, and infrared light to augment your GHK-Cu peptide, by the way, I'm not suggesting that, there's this thing called sunlight that provides that.
顺便说一句，如果你想要长波长的红光、近红外光和红外光来增强你的 GHK-Cu 肽，顺便说一句，我并不是建议这样做，有一种叫做阳光的东西可以提供这一点。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You just have to be careful not to get too much UV in the process.
您只需小心不要在此过程中受到太多紫外线。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So before people start thinking they absolutely need a red light device.
因此，在人们开始认为他们绝对需要一个红灯装置之前。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Full spectrum, too.
也是全谱。
Free.
自由的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Full spectrum, balanced.
全谱、平衡。
Great article in "Nature" we can link to recently that describes the different spectrums coming out of different devices, and that thing that we call the sun, which is the best source of all of that.
我们最近可以链接到“自然”中的一篇很棒的文章，它描述了不同设备发出的不同光谱，以及我们称之为太阳的东西，它是所有这些的最佳来源。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
And better blue light, too.
还有更好的蓝光。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And better blue light.
还有更好的蓝光。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Because we're deprived of 480 nanometers in this setup.
因为我们在这个设置中失去了 480 纳米的空间。
Unless you have full-spectrum lighting that we don't know about.
除非你有我们不知道的全光谱照明。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't get paid to say what I'm about to say, but I'm really excited about something.
我不会因为说我要说的话而得到报酬，但我对某件事感到非常兴奋。
For a long time, I've used Boncharge's-
很长一段时间以来，我一直使用 Boncharge 的-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
bulbs because they have these bulbs that switch from full spectrum in the day.
灯泡，因为它们的灯泡可以在白天从全光谱切换。
Then you-
然后你-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
just flip the same switch, and it goes to yellow, and then flip the switch again, and it goes to red.
只需扳动同一个开关，它就会变成黄色，然后再次扳动开关，它就会变成红色。
I find the red to be kind of difficult to navigate at night.
我发现红色在晚上有点难以导航。
Raw Optics-
原始光学-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
They made the new one
他们做了新的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
made one that goes from a morning-
做了一个从早上开始的-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
really bright light, full spectrum, with a lot of blue in there on purpose to wake you-
非常明亮的光，全光谱，里面有很多蓝色，是为了唤醒你——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
part of the week.
一周的一部分。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
And the right blue, the 480 cyan-
右边的蓝色，480 青色-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
blue.
蓝色。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Switch the same switch, don't have to change the bulb.
切换同一个开关，不必更换灯泡。
It goes to a late morning mode-
它进入上午晚些时候模式-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to afternoon mode, and then goes to candlelight mode in the evening.
下午模式，然后晚上进入烛光模式。
And here's the cool thing.
这就是最酷的事情。
Not only do they get the spectrum and the balance right, but it doesn't flicker.
它们不仅获得了正确的频谱和平衡，而且不会闪烁。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They got rid of the flicker that you get from LEDs, and yet it's an LED, so it's energy efficient.
他们消除了 LED 的闪烁现象，但它毕竟是 LED，因此非常节能。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
It still has infrared and-
它仍然有红外线和-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And I have no affiliation to them whatsoever.
而且我和他们没有任何关系。
I pay full price for these things, and I have to say, I really, really like them.
我为这些东西付了全价，我不得不说，我真的非常喜欢它们。
Even my bulldog puppy has a little one.
就连我的斗牛犬小狗也有一只。
I have this little monkey holding a lamp, and I say, "When the monkey goes to candlelight, you're going to sleep." And he knows.
我让这只小猴子拿着一盏灯，我说：“当猴子走到烛光下时，你就要睡觉了。”他知道。
He's learning when it goes to candlelight.
当烛光降临时，他正在学习。
Now, he's a dichromat, not a trichromat, but that's a different podcast.
现在，他是二色视者，而不是三色视者，但那是一个不同的播客。
All right.
好的。
GLPs.
GLP。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now we can comfortably exhale into your colleagues can...
现在我们可以轻松地向您的同事呼气了...
You can feel completely comfortable about anything that they might think or say because the GLPs are the reason why people are comfortable injecting themselves.
您可以对他们可能想到或说的任何事情感到完全放心，因为 GLP 是人们放心注射自己的原因。
It's why this whole thing of peptides has really taken off.
这就是肽的发展真正起飞的原因。
BPC kind of rode in on the GLPs-
BPC 有点加入了 GLP——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in my opinion, even though it's been around for a long time.
在我看来，尽管它已经存在很长时间了。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so have all the other peptides we've been talking about.
我们一直在谈论的所有其他肽也是如此。
So what are your thoughts?
那么你的想法是什么？
I've never taken one of these.
我从来没有拿过其中之一。
First things first, we're hearing that some people, I think Sam Altman actually talked about this publicly-
首先，我们听说有些人，我认为萨姆·奥尔特曼实际上公开谈论过这个——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Overdosed
服药过量
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with Kara Swisher about, what?
和卡拉·斯威舍有关，什么？
Yeah, where he overdosed.
是的，他吸毒过量的地方。
And actually, a compound pharmacy issue-
事实上，一个复合药剂问题——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
he thought was what did it.
他认为是这件事造成的。
I trust him to do the right calculation, so it does sound like that was a compounding pharmacy issue.
我相信他会做出正确的计算，所以听起来这确实是一个复杂的药房问题。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Could afford it, just buy the pharma-grade options and-
买得起，只需购买药品级选项，然后-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think back then people were just getting them where they could.
我想当时人们只是把它们放在力所能及的地方。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Where they could, yeah.
他们可以的地方，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I didn't ask him why-
我没有问他为什么——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
why that happened.
为什么会发生这种事。
But nonetheless, get the dosage right.
但无论如何，剂量要正确。
Make sure you're getting the right stuff clean.
确保你清洁了正确的东西。
But he talked about the kind of lack of-
但他谈到了那种缺乏——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Desire, yeah
欲望，是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
motivation.
动机。
Which many people have described anecdotally, okay, it lowered their food drive but lowered their drive, period
许多人都曾描述过，好吧，它降低了他们的食物驱动力，但也降低了他们的驱动力，就这样
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Makes sense
有道理
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Depending on which pathways are being affected.
取决于哪些途径受到影响。
But do you think that's a real effect?
但你认为这真的有效果吗？
Is that something that people need to be concerned about?
这是人们需要关心的事情吗？
Do you think people can microdose this stuff?
你认为人们可以微量服用这种东西吗？
Because a lot of people are microdosing it, regardless of what their source is.
因为很多人都在微量服用它，无论其来源是什么。
They're taking a lot less than the kind of standard clinical trials would be.
他们进行的试验比标准临床试验要少得多。
And we're leaving out retatrutide for now.
我们暂时不考虑瑞他鲁肽。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because it's so new.
因为它太新了。
We're going to talk about it, but I'm talking about the standard, if-
我们要讨论它，但我谈论的是标准，如果-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah, semaglutide and tirzepatide.
是的，索马鲁肽和替泽帕肽。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
So you have your semaglutide, which is Ozempic and Wegovy.
所以你有索马鲁肽，即 Ozempic 和 Wegovy。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
The Wegovy is the FDA-approved version for the weight loss.
Wegovy 是 FDA 批准的减肥版本。
For tirzepatide, you have Zepbound and Mounjaro, Zepbound being the FDA-approved version for weight loss that allows them to keep their patents for longer.
对于替泽帕肽，有 Zepbound 和 Mounjaro，Zepbound 是 FDA 批准的减肥版本，使他们能够更长时间地保留其专利。
These medications are kind of transforming medicine, especially where I practice, right?
这些药物是一种变革医学，尤其是在我执业的地方，对吗？
If we zoom out, our medical system, if we didn't have these interventions, was going to collapse on itself thanks to the obesity, pre-diabetes, diabetes epidemics.
如果我们把目光放远，如果我们没有这些干预措施，我们的医疗系统将会由于肥胖、糖尿病前期、糖尿病流行而自行崩溃。
Because we don't have enough clinicians or finances to get everybody who was pre-diabetic in the last 20 years, had they all transitioned to diabetes and ended up with diabetic medications and dialysis and eventually cardiovascular disease and all these things, we don't have the resources to take care of all these people.
因为我们没有足够的临床医生或资金来治疗过去 20 年来所有糖尿病前期患者，如果他们都转为糖尿病并最终接受糖尿病药物和透析，最终患上心血管疾病和所有这些疾病，我们没有资源来照顾所有这些人。
Our medical system was going to collapse, and there wasn't enough finances to take care of it.
我们的医疗系统即将崩溃，但没有足够的财政来应对。
Now, these GLP-1s are coming in and kind of transforming that phase of medicine because now we have a chance to dramatically change the rate of obesity, diabetes, pre-diabetes, and all these cardiometabolic disorders.
现在，这些 GLP-1 正在出现，并在某种程度上改变了医学的这一阶段，因为现在我们有机会显着改变肥胖、糖尿病、糖尿病前期和所有这些心脏代谢疾病的发生率。
So where do we stand?
那么我们的立场如何呢？
We needed something to happen.
我们需要发生一些事情。
Ideally, everybody would get morning sunlight and eat only healthy foods, unprocessed foods, and have low stress and sleep great at night, and maybe no one would develop to become obese.
理想情况下，每个人都能在早晨享受阳光，只吃健康食品、未经加工的食品，压力较小，晚上睡眠质量很好，也许没有人会变得肥胖。
But the reality is people become overweight, obese.
但现实是人们变得超重、肥胖。
They get stuck in that hole, and if you just try to step out of the hole the way you came in, sometimes that doesn't work.
他们被困在那个洞里，如果你只是试图按照进来的方式走出洞，有时这是行不通的。
You need a different path out of that problem.
你需要一条不同的路径来解决这个问题。
And that's been the diet and exercise literature for the last 40 years.
这就是过去 40 年的饮食和运动文献。
Millions of books have been sold on how to get people leaner.
关于如何让人们减肥的书籍已经售出数百万本。
We now have interventions medically that can dramatically change people's weights for the first time.
我们现在首次有了可以显着改变人们体重的医学干预措施。
We've had drugs in the past that 5, 10% of body weight.
过去我们服用的药物占体重的 5%、10%。
Now with the GLP-1s, we're getting 10, 20, even 30% of body weight being shaved off of people, especially with the new retatrutide data.
现在，借助 GLP-1，我们可以将人们的体重减轻 10%、20%、甚至 30%，特别是根据新的瑞他鲁肽数据。
Is there a free lunch?
有免费的午餐吗？
That's the big question.
这是个大问题。
Like we talked about earlier, there's always been these medical mishaps that have happened.
就像我们之前谈到的那样，总是会发生这些医疗事故。
So far, the data is very promising when it comes to GLP-1s, in that we are now reversing this rate of chronic disease.
到目前为止，关于 GLP-1 的数据非常有希望，因为我们现在正在扭转这种慢性病的发病率。
Is it going to stay that way?
会一直这样吗？
That's a good question.
这是个好问题。
I'm cautiously optimistic when it comes to these medications.
对于这些药物，我持谨慎乐观的态度。
I've been prescribing them since I was a resident.
自从我成为住院医生以来，我就一直在开这些药。
In my VA clinic, I was putting all these vets that are 300 pounds on GLP-1s.
在我的 VA 诊所，我让所有这些 300 磅重的兽医服用 GLP-1。
They were losing 50, 100 pounds.
他们减掉了 50 磅、100 磅。
Before it was even FDA approved for weight loss, we knew that if you put diabetics on this drug, they would lose weight, thanks to a lot of the bodybuilders that kind of pioneered that.
在它被 FDA 批准用于减肥之前，我们就知道如果让糖尿病患者服用这种药物，他们就会减肥，这要归功于许多开创性的健美运动员。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When did the bodybuilders first start using GLPs?
健美运动员什么时候开始使用 GLP？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Late 2010s.
2010 年代末。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
And then the signal.
然后是信号。
I don't think Novo or Lilly wanted to make these for obesity.
我认为 Novo 或 Lilly 不想为肥胖症而生产这些产品。
They were focused on making diabetes drugs.
他们专注于制造糖尿病药物。
Because if we zoom out even further, this is another animal-derived compound, right?
因为如果我们进一步缩小，这是另一种动物源性化合物，对吧？
It's found in the saliva of the Gila monsters.
它存在于希拉毒蜥的唾液中。
GLP-1 was discovered.
GLP-1被发现。
It's too short-acting to have worked on its own.
它的作用太短，无法单独发挥作用。
Then pharmaceutical companies, this is where you got to give pharma their credit, they developed these drugs into more functioning versions that had longer half-lives and could stick around in the serum for longer to have the clinical effect.
然后制药公司，这就是你要给予制药公司信誉的地方，他们将这些药物开发成功能更强的版本，具有更长的半衰期，并且可以在血清中停留更长时间以产生临床效果。
So then we started noticing that diabetics, like my grandma got Byetta, which was one of these first GLP-1 drugs, like 25 years ago.
然后我们开始注意到像我奶奶这样的糖尿病患者服用了 Byetta，这是最早的 GLP-1 药物之一，大约在 25 年前。
Out of all the drugs she was on, the reason I went into medicine, that was the drug that changed her whole trajectory, because she had less insulin needs, and she was losing weight and more energetic.
在她服用的所有药物中，我进入医学界的原因是这种药物改变了她的整个轨迹，因为她对胰岛素的需求减少了，而且她体重减轻了，精力也更加充沛了。
So we had seen the effects on diabetics, and then you get liraglutide, dulaglutide, and then eventually semaglutide was the blockbuster.
所以我们看到了它对糖尿病患者的影响，然后是利拉鲁肽、度拉鲁肽，最后索马鲁肽成为重磅炸弹。
But you get all these positive effects coming from these drugs on diabetics.
但这些药物对糖尿病患者会产生所有这些积极的影响。
It gets translated into obese people and overweight patients.
它被转化为肥胖者和超重患者。
The question is, what is the long-term effect of this?
问题是，这样做的长期影响是什么？
Do you have to stay on this drug forever?
您必须永远服用这种药物吗？
Can you titrate off?
可以滴定吗？
The pharmaceutical companies have not given us good guidelines on that.
制药公司尚未就此向我们提供良好的指导方针。
They've shown us what happens if you stop the drug.
他们向我们展示了如果停止用药会发生什么。
You max out on maximum dose tirzepatide, pull the brakes on.
您已用完最大剂量的替西帕肽，拉上刹车。
People tend to sometimes gain the weight.
人们有时会体重增加。
Some people don't, but some people will regain back to baseline.
有些人不会，但有些人会恢复到基线。
Because if you think about it, the better way to think about weight loss, it's a calculation your brain does every single day with all the different hormones and peptides that are made from the gut, the GIP, GLP, glucagon, insulin, testosterone, estrogen.
因为如果你仔细想想，考虑减肥的更好方法是，你的大脑每天都会用肠道产生的所有不同的激素和肽、GIP、GLP、胰高血糖素、胰岛素、睾酮、雌激素进行计算。
All these things can modulate, and there's this thing called the set point theory, or settling points, and they integrate, should I eat or not eat?
所有这些东西都可以调节，有一种叫做设定点理论或稳定点的东西，它们整合在一起，我应该吃还是不吃？
Right?
正确的？
So the GLP-1 is a giant signal to the brain of, "Don't eat." So we're modulating this pathway.
因此，GLP-1 是向大脑发出的一个巨大信号，“不要吃东西”。所以我们正在调节这条途径。
What happens to all these young kids that are 18, 19 years old on five milligrams of retatrutide that have lost 30, 40 pounds?
这些 18、19 岁的孩子服用 5 毫克瑞他鲁肽后体重减轻了 30、40 磅，结果怎么样？
Are they going to have to be on that for life now to maintain that weight?
他们现在必须终生坚持下去才能保持这个体重吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can I ask you about that?
我可以问你这个吗？
Because when people say perhaps you have to be on a drug for the rest of your life-
因为当人们说也许你必须终生吸毒时——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I think, okay, what's the availability?
我想，好吧，有什么可用性？
What's the cost?
费用是多少？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's the real-world cost of taking six months off-
休假六个月的现实成本是多少？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because you can't access it?
因为你无法访问它？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's a shortage, and maybe better drugs will come along.
药物短缺，也许更好的药物会出现。
I don't necessarily have a problem with it, although if you talk to type 1 diabetics, in the old days, they weren't crazy about the idea that they had to constantly-
我不一定对此有问题，尽管如果你与 1 型糖尿病患者交谈，在过去，他们并不热衷于必须不断地-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
inject themselves with insulin.
给自己注射胰岛素。
Now there are better delivery devices.
现在有更好的输送设备。
I kind of feel like eventually there'll be some slow-release-
我感觉最终会有一些缓慢的释放-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
polymer that will just give you a microdose of it.
聚合物只会给你微剂量的它。
You could dial it up-
你可以拨通——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
if you want.
如果你愿意的话。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Those are all pills now.
现在这些都是药丸了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Personally, I don't worry so much about for the rest of your life.
就我个人而言，我并不担心你的余生。
I worry more about the much shorter life-
我更担心的是更短的寿命-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
if people are obese.
如果人们肥胖。
But what about these brain effects?
但这些大脑效应又如何呢？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I do worry about a brain that's developing in the context-
我确实担心在这种情况下正在发育的大脑-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of a thousand-fold or more increase in these GLPs, because when we had Zach Knight on the podcast, he's not a clinician, he's a scientist up at UCSF, Howard Hughes Investigator, which means he's like a superstar and deserves to be in that category.
这些 GLP 增加了一千倍或更多，因为当我们让扎克·奈特出现在播客上时，他不是临床医生，他是加州大学旧金山分校的科学家，霍华德·休斯调查员，这意味着他就像一个超级明星，值得属于这一类别。
He described that the diabetic drugs would increase GLP by double, quadruple, but the weight loss effects weren't really there.
他描述说，糖尿病药物可以使 GLP 增加两倍、四倍，但减肥效果并不真正存在。
But the drugs that you rattled off a few minutes ago, Mounjaro, Ozempic, et cetera, and certainly retatrutide, we're talking about
但是你几分钟前滔滔不绝地说出的药物，Mounjaro、Ozempic 等等，当然还有瑞他鲁肽，我们正在谈论
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
thousandfold increases in GLPs.
GLP 增加数千倍。
We don't know what the long-term effects-
我们不知道长期影响是什么
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No
否
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
of those are on neural plasticity and learning.
其中涉及神经可塑性和学习。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No.
不。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Could be great.
可能会很棒。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes.
是的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Could be positive.
可能是积极的。
We shouldn't always assume those effects are bad.
我们不应该总是假设这些影响是不好的。
Yeah.
是的。
The effects for, let's say, a 60-year-old pre-diabetic, diabetic on Alzheimer's disease seems to be potentially positive.
比方说，对于一位 60 岁的糖尿病前期患者来说，糖尿病对阿尔茨海默病的影响似乎是潜在的积极作用。
I think the study last year didn't show a good signal on Alzheimer's prevention, but we know diabetes and cardiometabolic disease speeds up that transition, so controlling insulin dynamics might be beneficial there, and obesity's not great for Alzheimer's risk.
我认为去年的研究并没有显示出预防阿尔茨海默氏症的良好信号，但我们知道糖尿病和心脏代谢疾病会加速这种转变，因此控制胰岛素动态可能是有益的，而肥胖对于阿尔茨海默氏症的风险并不大。
The question is, what about for these cognitive effects?
问题是，这些认知效应又如何呢？
Is the effect happening from the drug itself?
效果是药物本身产生的吗？
Is it from misuse of the drug, too high of a dose?
是因为药物滥用、剂量过高吗？
You're not getting enough electrolytes, you're not getting enough micronutrients, macronutrients, your blood sugar is low.
你没有得到足够的电解质，你没有得到足够的微量营养素、常量营养素，你的血糖很低。
Because a lot of these patients, the way we approach it is training wheel effect when it comes to GLP-1s.
因为对于很多这样的患者，我们处理 GLP-1 的方式是训练轮效应。
Okay, you come to us, you're a patient, you want to use GLP-1s.
好的，您来找我们，您是一名患者，您想要使用 GLP-1。
We'll give you a lowest dosage possible that it has an effect for you, GLP-1, in conjunction with lifestyle modification, dietary advice, exercise programs, et cetera.
我们将为您提供对您有效的最低剂量 GLP-1，并结合生活方式的改变、饮食建议、锻炼计划等。
And then hopefully peel away those training wheels, or keep them on if you need them, until we get to the endpoint that we want.
然后希望剥掉那些辅助轮，或者如果需要的话保留它们，直到我们到达我们想要的终点。
Now, when people do it that way, I don't hear a lot of these effects anecdotally from Berkeley patients that we hear about online, where people are like, "Oh, I'm depressed.
现在，当人们这样做时，我没有从伯克利患者那里听到很多我们在网上听到的这样的影响，人们会说，“哦，我很沮丧。
I hate my life from these drugs." And the question is, a lot of people have low blood pressure from these drugs because they're not consuming enough electrolytes or enough food, period.
我讨厌这些药物给我的生活。”问题是，很多人因这些药物而出现低血压，因为他们没有摄入足够的电解质或足够的食物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Because some people will take a mega dose of these drugs and end up not eating, like a day goes by, they've eaten one meal.
因为有些人会服用大剂量的这些药物，最终不吃东西，就像一天过去了，他们吃了一顿饭。
That's not conducive to feeling good.
这不利于感觉良好。
The reason people are obese in the first place is because eating is such a pleasurable experience for humans and a social experience, et cetera.
人们之所以肥胖，首先是因为饮食对于人类来说是一种令人愉悦的体验，也是一种社会体验等等。
The other thing is, if you're not eating with people on the same table, are you having less of that socialization aspect?
另一件事是，如果你不和同桌的人一起吃饭，你的社交能力是否会减少？
A lot of times you meet up to eat or drink or whatever it may be.
很多时候你们会聚在一起吃吃喝喝或者做任何其他的事情。
So I'm very curious when it comes to the cognitive effects, is it from the drug directly interacting with the receptors in the brain?
所以我很好奇，当谈到认知效果时，是否是药物直接与大脑中的受体相互作用？
When we've seen that the right amount of dose decreases inflammation in the brain.
当我们发现适量的剂量可以减少大脑炎症时。
Or is it because of the social aspects of the drug changing the way you behave and therefore leading to negative output?
或者是因为药物的社会方面改变了你的行为方式，从而导致负输出？
Or a mix.
或者混合。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How dare you think of confounding variables?
你怎么敢想到混杂变量？
No, it's so cool because you're willing to go outside the box and say, "Hey, listen, this might be due to some of the downstream consequences-
不，这太酷了，因为你愿意跳出框框并说：“嘿，听着，这可能是由于一些下游后果 -
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of reduced appetite."
食欲下降。”
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah, and we know the literature shows that people now are having less alcohol cravings from this.
是的，我们知道文献表明人们现在对酒精的渴望减少了。
It might be changing the way the dopaminergic signaling is happening in the brain, which is concerning, right?
它可能正在改变大脑中多巴胺能信号传导的方式，这令人担忧，对吗？
Because a lot of people will be stacking this with ADHD medications.
因为很多人会将其与多动症药物叠加使用。
They might be using some of these peptide stimulants-
他们可能正在使用其中一些肽兴奋剂-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
Semaxanane, whatever it may be.
Semaxanane，无论是什么。
Because what happens is people go to these websites, they buy one peptide, and they go, "I had a great result." And they'll be like, "You know what?
因为人们会访问这些网站，购买一种肽，然后说：“我得到了很好的结果。”他们会说，“你知道吗？
Let me add three more peptides on."
让我再添加三种肽。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sensory peptides.
感觉肽。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
It's an increasing AOV problem, so the average sale value goes up
这是一个日益严重的 AOV 问题，因此平均销售价值上升
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
from these research sites.
来自这些研究网站。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
We'll see where GLP-1s go.
我们将看看 GLP-1 的去向。
The reality is it's here.
事实是它就在这里。
There is no pre-GLP-1 world for us as clinicians, as health enthusiasts.
对于我们作为临床医生和健康爱好者来说，不存在 GLP-1 之前的世界。
We're in a post-GLP-1 world, and everything kind of dictates downstream from that.
我们处于后 GLP-1 时代，一切都由其下游决定。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The people I know have taken these, and I don't know exactly which, are taking much lower dosages than-
我认识的人服用过这些药物，但我不知道到底是哪些人服用的剂量比-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
were prescribed to them, and they are indeed sharing them with getting the prescription, then people are sharing them.
给他们开了处方，他们确实在获得处方的同时分享它们，然后人们也在分享它们。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People are cost sharing.
人们正在分担成本。
Now people are trying to get them from other sources.
现在人们正试图从其他来源获取它们。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Several of those people say they feel like they can think better, but I told them, well, yeah, if your insulin sensitivity is improved-
其中一些人说他们觉得自己可以更好地思考，但我告诉他们，好吧，是的，如果你的胰岛素敏感性得到改善 -
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
if you're carrying less body fat, body fat's an endocrine organ.
如果你体内的脂肪较少，那么身体脂肪就是一个内分泌器官。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You need some body fat, but there could be a number of reasons for that.
您需要一些身体脂肪，但这可能有多种原因。
I don't know if these are direct effects on the brain.
我不知道这些是否对大脑有直接影响。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, that'd be leptin sensitivity increases as you decrease the body fat mass.
嗯，随着身体脂肪量的减少，瘦素敏感性会增加。
There's GLP-1 receptors on the POMC neurons in the brain, and no one's kind of examined what that means downstream for the leptin melanocortin pathway, and what that means for energy status, thyroid hormone production, reproductive status.
大脑中的 POMC 神经元上有 GLP-1 受体，但没有人研究过这对瘦素黑皮质素通路下游意味着什么，以及这对能量状态、甲状腺激素产生、生殖状态意味着什么。
We know a lot of people are Ozempic babies in that a lady will be subfertile or infertile, start a weight loss drug, and then find out by accident she's pregnant.
我们知道很多人都是臭氧婴儿，因为一位女士会生育能力低下或不孕，开始服用减肥药，然后意外发现自己怀孕了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Was she obese before?
她以前胖过吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
There's your overweight, obese women-
这就是超重、肥胖的女性——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
that are having their fertility improve as a result of losing-
由于失去-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow
哇
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
the weight.
重量。
Because we know your leptin status is a key driver of fertility, because if you're having low leptin levels, you're starving, you shouldn't be fertile.
因为我们知道您的瘦素状态是生育能力的关键驱动因素，因为如果您的瘦素水平较低，则表明您正在挨饿，因此您不应该具有生育能力。
If you have too much leptin and you're leptin resistant, you shouldn't be having kids either.
如果您的瘦素过多并且您对瘦素有抵抗力，那么您也不应该生孩子。
So both of those things kind of get modulated by these drugs as well.
因此，这两件事也都受到这些药物的调节。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There was a science paper some years ago that leptin hitting a certain threshold is actually what signals the onset of puberty in females.
几年前有一篇科学论文指出，瘦素达到一定阈值实际上是女性青春期开始的信号。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is that still considered true?
这仍然被认为是真的吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
I think that's part of it.
我认为这是其中的一部分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Makes sense, like enough body fat-
有道理，就像体内脂肪充足一样——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to signal that there are enough resources and then-
表示有足够的资源，然后-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
animals, or that was an animal study, or the idea was that people perhaps also become, females become reproductively competent at the point where there's enough energetic resources-
动物，或者那是一项动物研究，或者这个想法是，人类也许也会变得，女性在有足够的能量资源时变得具有生殖能力-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that, interesting.
那个，有趣。
Have you ever taken one of these?
您曾经服用过其中之一吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Oh, wow.
哦，哇。
Yes.
是的。
I had a family member with a GLP-1 pen from four years ago that said it wasn't working.
我的一位家人拥有一支四年前的 GLP-1 笔，但他说它不起作用。
So I'm like, "Okay, let's see what's going on here." I got a pen.
所以我想，“好吧，让我们看看这里发生了什么。”我有一支笔。
Don't do this at home.
不要在家里做这个。
And I was like, "Yeah, it's not working.
我当时想，“是的，这不起作用。
It's bunked." They got them from overseas.
它已经被盖住了。”他们从海外买来的。
It was a brand name Ozempic pen, but gotten from overseas.
这是一支来自海外的品牌Ozempic钢笔。
Got the pen.
拿到笔了。
I was like, "You know what?
我当时想，“你知道吗？
If it's bunked, let's see what it is." Don't do this at home.
如果它被掩盖了，让我们看看它是什么。”不要在家里做这个。
Biohackers in me came out and tried it.
我体内的生物黑客出来尝试了。
I injected, I think it was a milligram of Ozempic.
我注射了，我想那是一毫克的臭氧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's a standard dose?
标准剂量是多少？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
You start at 0.25-
你从 0.25- 开始
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay
好的
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
then escalate to 0.5.
然后升级到0.5。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You went straight to a milligram?
你直接去毫克了吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah, because I was like, "Ah." They're like, "It doesn't work.
是的，因为我当时想，“啊。”他们就像是，“这不起作用。
I'm eating so much." I'm like, "Okay, whatever.
我吃这么多了。”我想，“好吧，无论如何。
You got bunk pen from overseas." I go to do a shift.
你从国外买来了双层钢笔。”我去换班。
I was on night shift that day, and I've never had Charizard-like projectile vomiting.
那天我上夜班，从来没有发生过喷火龙般的喷射性呕吐。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oof.
噢。
And low blood sugar, presumably.
大概还有低血糖。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
The blood sugar effects for non-diabetics don't get that low, but it was just miserable.
对非糖尿病患者的血糖影响不会那么低，但也很糟糕。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh.
哦。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
I would go admit a patient, go upstairs, vomit in the call room.
我会去收治病人，然后上楼，在呼叫室呕吐。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You just gave a really good reason why people shouldn't just do what you just described.
你刚刚给出了一个很好的理由，为什么人们不应该只做你刚才描述的事情。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
No, they shouldn't do that.
不，他们不应该这样做。
Then go back to the ER, admit a patient, and then it was the most miserable night of my life.
然后回到急诊室，收治一名病人，然后这是我一生中最痛苦的夜晚。
So be very careful how you use these drugs.
因此，使用这些药物时要非常小心。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
That's why titrate very slowly.
这就是滴定速度非常缓慢的原因。
Luckily with the newer ones, the effects are much less.
幸运的是，对于较新的产品，影响要小得多。
People who report tirzepatide and retatrutide even have less of these gastrointestinal effects.
报告替西帕肽和瑞他鲁肽的人甚至较少出现这些胃肠道影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
But that's a peptide gone wrong story.
但这是一个肽出了问题的故事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Peptide gone wrong.
肽出了问题。
Retatrutide.
瑞他鲁肽。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I put out a post on X, I thought, and I still think that retatrutide is going to be a trillion-dollar industry, not because so many people are necessarily going to use it for weight loss-
我在X上发了一篇帖子，我想，我仍然认为瑞他鲁肽将是一个万亿美元的产业，并不是因为有那么多人一定会用它来减肥——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but because many people will use it for weight loss, many people will use it for other things because you can be sure, absolutely sure, that Lilly is going to find other ways to-
但因为很多人会用它来减肥，很多人也会用它来做其他事情，因为你可以确定，绝对确定，莉莉会找到其他方法来——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Market it?
市场吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
market it.
营销它。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you can protect a patent by finding additional uses-
您可以通过寻找其他用途来保护专利 -
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for things.
对于事情。
A lot of the blockbuster drugs for eye diseases, the patents to prevent generic forms were continued by-- Here's the deal, folks.
许多治疗眼病的重磅药物、防止仿制药的专利都是由——这就是交易，伙计们。
Companies are really incentivized to take the hundreds of millions of dollars that they spent on clinical trials and research and development and not have to do it again.
公司确实有动力拿走他们在临床试验和研发上花费的数亿美元，而不必再这样做。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So if you can find another valid use for a drug, you don't have to run all the safety stuff.
因此，如果您可以找到药物的另一种有效用途，则无需执行所有安全措施。
You don't have to do a lot of stuff.
你不必做很多事情。
You just have to show efficacy and a few other things.
你只需要表现出功效和其他一些东西。
But that's the way that drug companies continue to play the game to protect their investment, right?
但这就是制药公司继续玩游戏以保护其投资的方式，对吧？
You can understand why they do it.
你可以理解他们为什么这样做。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
They got shareholders.
他们有股东。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you like it or not, that's your business.
如果你喜欢或不喜欢，那是你的事。
So I'm guessing that retatrutide, we're going to discover that it's useful for a number of things, and from the clinical trials.
所以我猜测瑞他鲁肽，我们会从临床试验中发现它有很多用途。
There's a reason to believe that's going to be the case.
我们有理由相信情况会如此。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
And the big thing they're trying to do now is classify it as a biologic.
他们现在想做的最重要的事情是将其归类为生物制剂。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
So retatrutide has 39 amino acids.
所以瑞他鲁肽有 39 个氨基酸。
To be a biologic, it'd be above 40 amino acids.
作为生物制剂，其氨基酸含量应超过 40 种。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And once you get to above 40 amino acids, if you are a biologic, then the patent lasts-
一旦你的氨基酸含量超过 40 种，如果你是生物制品，那么专利就会持续——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Way longer.
更长。
I don't know the exact numbers
我不知道确切的数字
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think it's like 15 years.
我想大概是15年吧。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
I think so, yeah.
我想是的，是的。
Much, much longer.
更长、更长。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Whereas if it's 40 or below amino acids-
而如果氨基酸含量为 40 或更少-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
then it's something like five-
然后大概是五——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
five to seven years.
五到七年。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
That's something patent law will have to-
这是专利法必须要做的事情——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
So we're talking hundreds of hundreds of millions of dollars.
所以我们谈论的是数十亿美元。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe billions of dollars.
也许是数十亿美元。
And you can tinker with this.
你可以修改这个。
You can add amino acids.
您可以添加氨基酸。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
And more importantly, no one can compound it if it's a biologic or if it's very difficult to compound, like you said, with the right certificates.
更重要的是，如果它是一种生物制品，或者像您所说的那样很难通过正确的证书进行复合，那么没有人可以对其进行复合。
Something similar happened with hCG where it was taken out of the compounders recently.
hCG 也发生了类似的情况，最近它被从复合机中取出。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So hCG-
所以 hCG-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Human chorionic gonadotropin.
人绒毛膜促性腺激素。
This is commonly prescribed for trying to restore fertility to men, but it's mostly being given in IVF cycles to women.
这通常是为了试图恢复男性的生育能力而开出的处方，但它主要在女性的体外受精周期中使用。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
There's a big controversy about hCG and compounders and who can compound it and who can't.
关于 hCG 和复合剂以及谁可以复合、谁不能复合存在很大争议。
That's beyond this, but this is a very important thing, because if Lilly gets retatrutide as a biologic, then the compounders are out of luck.
这超出了这个范围，但这是一件非常重要的事情，因为如果礼来公司将瑞他鲁肽作为生物制剂使用，那么复配商就倒霉了。
Because the compounders all have the formula for reta.
因为复合机都有reta的公式。
They're ready to make it.
他们已经准备好成功了。
They can get the API from China and start compounding it as soon as it's available.
他们可以从中国获得 API，并在可用后立即开始合成。
It will make them all billions of dollars.
这将使他们全部赚到数十亿美元。
But if Lilly's able to do this, they'll be able to protect themselves from what's going to happen.
但如果莉莉能够做到这一点，他们就能够保护自己免受即将发生的事情的影响。
The Trump administration now is trying to get with Trump Rx, Lilly, and Novo Nordisk to drop their prices to make them more available, which has happened.
特朗普政府现在正试图与 Trump Rx、礼来 (Lilly) 和诺和诺德 (Novo Nordisk) 合作降低价格，以提高它们的可用性，这已经发生了。
Now, I think you can get a $300 monthly dose of tirzepatide available through these websites.
现在，我认为您可以通过这些网站获得每月 300 美元剂量的替西帕肽。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Used to be 1,500.
以前是1,500。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah, 1,500 without insurance.
是的，1500，没有保险。
Some insurance will cover it, some wouldn't.
有些保险会承保，有些则不会。
You'd have to get a savvy clinician that will advocate on your behalf to get these covered.
您必须找一位精明的临床医生来代表您进行宣传才能获得这些保险。
But cash pay between even some of the pills, I think you can pay 150 bucks a month for the orforglumide, which is not a peptide, but still a GLP-1 agonist.
但即使是某些药丸也需要现金支付，我认为您每月可以支付 150 美元购买 orforglumide，它不是肽，但仍然是 GLP-1 激动剂。
Which kind of gets into the point, it doesn't matter if it's a peptide or not.
不管是哪种肽，都没关系。
What matters is where it touches, what receptor it touches.
重要的是它接触到的地方、接触到的受体。
Because orforglumide is more similar to semaglutide.
因为orforglumide与索马鲁肽更相似。
Both of them are GLP-1 drugs.
两者都是GLP-1药物。
One's a peptide, one's not.
一个是肽，一个不是。
Then BPC is to semaglutide.
然后BPC就是索马鲁肽。
So everyone online talking about peptides are good or peptides are bad, there is no actual scientific category of peptides that gives you a functional definition that's discussable between two people.
因此，网上每个人都在谈论肽是好还是肽是坏，但没有肽的实际科学类别可以为您提供两个人之间可以讨论的功能定义。
Because what do you mean by peptide?
因为肽是什么意思？
Do you mean carnosine, or do you mean retatrutide?
您是指肌肽还是瑞他鲁肽？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Excellent point.
很棒的一点。
Speaks to a lot of the confusion.
谈到了很多困惑。
You are a beam of clarifying information on this.
你是一束澄清这方面的信息。
Actually, I'm going to put in a vote publicly right here and now, but also I'm going to do what I can to contact folks that are relevant.
事实上，我现在就将在这里公开投票，但我也会尽我所能联系相关的人。
I think you should, no joke, I think you should be in charge of a nomenclature committee.
我认为你应该，不是开玩笑，我认为你应该负责一个命名委员会。
I think in the world of genetics, for a long time there, people would just name gene Sonic Hedgehog or-
我认为在遗传学领域，很长一段时间里，人们只是将基因命名为 Sonic Hedgehog 或——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
Sync1, or people would name it after their cousin.
Sync1，或者人们会以他们的表弟的名字命名它。
And it was a mess.
场面一片混乱。
And so what ends up happening is you find similarity between genes across different laboratories.
所以最终发生的事情是你发现不同实验室的基因之间存在相似性。
Eventually, you have a meeting-
最终，你们有一个会议——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and you have a nomenclature committee.
你有一个命名委员会。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then you say, "This is Ephrin 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6."
然后你说：“这是 Ephrin 1,2,3,4,5,6。”
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"These are the sequences." The general public doesn't think about molecules in that way.
“这些是序列。”公众并不以这种方式思考分子。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But the general public are diving right into this.
但公众正在深入研究这个问题。
They are the experiment.
他们就是实验。
And so what I think would be very, very useful would be a clear and accessible nomenclature to divide up what we've talked about today.
因此，我认为用一个清晰易懂的术语来划分我们今天讨论的内容将是非常非常有用的。
BPC 157, peptides with and without known receptors, the regenerative peptides, as you've called them, things like thymosin alpha, TB 500, which are immunogenic peptides.
BPC 157，具有或不具有已知受体的肽，再生肽，正如您所说的那样，诸如胸腺素α，TB 500之类的东西，它们是免疫原性肽。
I think the word peptides is just too general.
我认为肽这个词太笼统了。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
It's too general.
这太笼统了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm putting my vote in for you- ...
我要把票投给你——...
not that you don't already have enough to do, to come up with some nomenclature that maybe I can help propagate and some of the other people in the podcast community.
并不是说你还没有足够的事情去做，想出一些术语，也许我可以帮助传播，以及播客社区中的其他一些人。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We'll even contact our close, close friends in legacy media and explain to them how this works, and maybe they can help propagate it.
我们甚至会联系我们在传统媒体中的亲密朋友，并向他们解释这是如何运作的，也许他们可以帮助传播它。
Just for sake of clarity.
只是为了清楚起见。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
We're not taking the stance these are good or bad, but just for sake of clarity, given that there's so many people that are peptide curious.
我们并不认为这些是好是坏，只是为了清楚起见，考虑到有这么多人对肽感到好奇。
Okay, so before we wrap, I solicited X and Instagram for questions about peptides.
好的，在我们结束之前，我向 X 和 Instagram 询问了有关肽的问题。
I did not reveal exactly who you are, but I gave some of your credentials and got back many, many excellent questions, most of which, thanks to you, were answered during the course of our conversation up until now.
我没有透露你到底是谁，但我提供了你的一些凭据，并回复了很多很多很好的问题，感谢你，其中大部分问题在我们的谈话过程中得到了回答。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Sweet.
甜甜的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But there are a couple of them that many people asked we didn't touch on, at least not directly.
但有很多人问我们没有触及其中的几个，至少没有直接触及。
One thing that's come up several times is the question about for women who have endometriosis or fibroids or other things related to reproductive health and potential, can things like BPC 157 help and/or hurt those circumstances given their potential role in angiogenesis and the other things you described?
多次出现的一件事是，对于患有子宫内膜异位症或肌瘤或其他与生殖健康和潜力相关的疾病的女性来说，鉴于 BPC 157 在血管生成和您描述的其他方面的潜在作用，BPC 157 等物质是否可以帮助和/或伤害这些情况？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
No literature exists on either animal or human data that relates those peptides.
没有关于与这些肽相关的动物或人类数据的文献。
I'd say those are more hormonal/metabolic issues that a good OBGYN should take care of.
我想说，这些更多的是荷尔蒙/代谢问题，一个好的妇产科医生应该照顾。
They're very difficult to treat conditions and very miserable to have for people, and they have fertility implications.
它们的病情很难治疗，而且对人们来说非常痛苦，而且还会影响生育能力。
But those are more on the hormonal side.
但这些更多的是荷尔蒙方面的。
I think the hormonal lever is way stronger than a peptide lever like BPC or any of those.
我认为荷尔蒙杠杆比 BPC 等肽杠杆强得多。
And as far as I'm concerned, there's no case reports or studies that would suggest positive or negative
就我而言，没有案例报告或研究表明积极或消极
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
CNS effects, central nervous system-
CNS影响，中枢神经系统-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
excuse me, of BPC 157 or other peptides that we've talked about that don't fall under the typical umbrella that people go to when they think about BPC 157.
抱歉，BPC 157 或我们讨论过的其他肽不属于人们在想到 BPC 157 时所想到的典型范畴。
Now, you talked about some of the stuff related to alcohol-
现在，你谈到了一些与酒精有关的事情——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and perhaps other things like Adderall.
也许还有其他药物，例如阿得拉（Adderall）。
But anything known about people feeling better or worse on different peptides, just psychologically, neurologically?
但是，人们对不同的肽感觉更好或更差的情况，只是在心理上、神经上有什么了解吗？
TBI, I'll throw TBI in there for myself.
TBI，我自己把TBI扔进去。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't have TBI, fortunately, but I know many people that do.
幸运的是，我没有患有脑外伤性脑损伤，但我认识很多人都有这种病。
They reach out to me.
他们向我伸出援手。
Could it be beneficial in those cases?
在这些情况下它会有好处吗？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
There were studies in Russia on TBIs when it comes to cortexin and cerebralysin, which will probably never be available in the United States, so we'll skip those.
俄罗斯有关于皮质素和脑蛋白酶的 TBI 的研究，这些研究可能永远不会在美国获得，所以我们将跳过这些。
There's no good data on BPC and TBIs.
没有关于 BPC 和 TBI 的良好数据。
They theoretically could be useful from an anti-stress perspective.
从理论上讲，它们从抗压的角度来看可能有用。
That'd be interesting to explore that.
探索这一点会很有趣。
BPC's neurological effects are very homeostatic in nature.
BPC 的神经系统效应本质上是非常稳态的。
They don't let you get too high, in the mice data at least.
他们不会让你变得太高，至少在老鼠的数据中是这样。
The mice can't get too drunk, and they can't withdraw from alcohol.
老鼠不能喝得太醉，也不能戒酒。
They can't get too high on, they'll give mice methamphetamines, and they can't get too high on the methamphetamines, and they don't withdraw either.
他们不能太兴奋，他们会给老鼠注射甲基苯丙胺，他们也不能太兴奋，而且他们也不会戒断。
So there's a homeostatic mechanism that might explain some of these anhedonia side effects that people are reporting, where BPC modulates the gut-brain axis in a way which we do not understand, it's kind of woo-woo, that makes it so that your brain can't go too far in one direction.
因此，有一种稳态机制可以解释人们报告的一些快感缺失副作用，其中 BPC 以一种我们不理解的方式调节肠脑轴，这有点像“呜呜”，这样你的大脑就不会在一个方向上走得太远。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Maybe if we think of a just-so story, it's putting you into a rest-and-digest state to heal whatever problem you have, if that's why BPC exists as a big parent compound.
也许如果我们想到一个这样的故事，它会让你进入休息和消化的状态来治愈你所遇到的任何问题，如果这就是 BPC 作为一个大母体化合物存在的原因。
That might be part of the fact that if you squeeze BPC, your body goes into a convalescent mode.
这可能是因为如果您挤压 BPC，您的身体就会进入恢复模式。
Because it will take away stimulants, it'll take away sedatives.
因为它会消除兴奋剂，也会消除镇静剂。
Don't try this, of course, but there seems to be a homeostatic mechanism in BPC that needs to be explored further with good data.
当然，不要尝试这个，但 BPC 中似乎存在一种稳态机制，需要用良好的数据进一步探索。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very interesting.
非常有趣。
Thank you.
谢谢。
The major question was: What should people do if they are actually interested in obtaining peptides?
主要问题是：如果人们确实对获得肽感兴趣，应该怎么做？
Let's just set the GLPs aside because it's kind of a separate category.
让我们将 GLP 放在一边，因为它是一个单独的类别。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they want to explore their use, and they want to be as safe as possible.
他们想要探索它们的用途，并且希望尽可能安全。
Where shouldn't they look-
他们不应该看哪里——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is how I'll phrase the question.
我将如何表达这个问题。
Where should they look?
他们应该看哪里？
Who should they talk to?
他们应该和谁交谈？
At what point can they be confident that what they're taking is what the bottle claims and that it's free of contaminants-
在什么时候他们才能确信他们所服用的东西是瓶子上声称的并且不含污染物-
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and so on?
等等？
I have many questions, but I think this is the-
我有很多问题，但我认为这是——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yep.
是的。
It's the most difficult question to answer because the majority of people are getting their peptides from research-only websites.
这是最难回答的问题，因为大多数人都是从仅供研究的网站获取肽。
Unfortunately, those are not reliable.
不幸的是，这些并不可靠。
We don't know what's in them.
我们不知道里面有什么。
They could be good, could be bad, could be as good as a compound pharmacy, could be much worse, could be the wrong peptide-
它们可能是好的，也可能是坏的，可能和复合药剂一样好，也可能更糟，可能是错误的肽——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
...
...
in the vial.
在小瓶中。
So we don't know what's in there.
所以我们不知道里面有什么。
What should happen over the next six, 12, 24 months is there will be a lot of physician-led options for patients to get peptides.
在接下来的 6、12、24 个月内，将会出现很多由医生主导的选择，供患者获取肽。
Number one, you should encourage your physician.
第一，你应该鼓励你的医生。
If you don't have one, get one and get a good relationship with one, because having a good relationship with your physician is a key aspect of driving good health.
如果您没有，请购买一个并与医生建立良好的关系，因为与您的医生保持良好的关系是促进健康的关键方面。
But having a physician that's educated on peptides, to my doctor friends, all of you guys now live in a peptide era.
但是，对于我的医生朋友来说，拥有一位受过肽教育的医生，你们所有人现在都生活在肽时代。
You have no choice but to get educated, so get educated.
你别无选择，只能接受教育，所以接受教育。
We should create resources for that.
我们应该为此创造资源。
There will be a lot of telemed options opening up soon through various companies that will offer these peptides, and it will be good for the consumer because it'll be a race down in price.
很快就会有很多提供这些肽的公司推出远程医疗选择，这对消费者来说是件好事，因为这将是一场价格竞争。
And then we'll know which compounding pharmacies are better, which ones are worse, so you can get better source peptides.
然后我们就会知道哪些复方药店比较好，哪些比较差，这样你就可以买到更好来源的肽。
But you should get them from clinicians.
但你应该从临床医生那里得到它们。
The question that's going to happen is there's going to be a lot of these orally available peptides, and they're going to be all over supplement websites.
将会出现的问题是，将会有很多口服肽，并且它们将遍布补充剂网站。
You'll find them with your magnesium, your creatine, and then your pinealion or your BPC 157.
您会在镁、肌酸、松果体或 BPC 157 中找到它们。
The question is, what is that going to look like?
问题是，那会是什么样子？
So we'd like our FDA overlords to give us some guidance there on what can and cannot be sold and bought.
因此，我们希望 FDA 的领导者能够就什么可以买卖、什么不能买卖给予我们一些指导。
But it should be physician-led.
但应该由医生主导。
You should be doing this under the guidance of a physician that's monitoring you.
您应该在监测您的医生的指导下进行此操作。
You shouldn't be taking tesamorelin without checking IGF-1 levels.
在未检查 IGF-1 水平的情况下，不应服用替沙莫林。
A GLP-1 even should be monitored with a physician that can counsel you on too much weight loss.
GLP-1 甚至应该由医生进行监测，他可以建议您不要过度减肥。
Some of these celebrities should have had better clinicians monitoring their GLP-1 journeys because they lost way too much weight.
其中一些名人应该有更好的临床医生来监测他们的 GLP-1 旅程，因为他们体重减轻了太多。
That doesn't look healthy at all.
这看起来一点也不健康。
Unless, first of all, someone's not having the basics in place, there's no point in putting all these peptides in.
首先，除非某人没有具备适当的基础知识，否则将所有这些肽放入其中是没有意义的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Morning sunlight, sleep-
清晨的阳光，睡眠——
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
darkness at night.
夜晚黑暗。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Good diet, minimally processed food.
良好的饮食习惯，最少加工的食物。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yes.
是的。
The next phase of peptide curious and peptide-driven discussions is going to be how do you incorporate it into a giant health system?
肽好奇和肽驱动的讨论的下一阶段将是如何将其纳入一个巨大的卫生系统？
You do morning sunlight, blood blockers, and epitalon.
你服用早晨的阳光、血液阻滞剂和 Epitalon。
You do BPC, and you work out in the gym, or whatever it may be.
你做 BPC，然后在健身房或其他任何地方锻炼。
There's going to be protocols that develop.
将会制定一些协议。
But I think within six months, there'll be very good physician options for everybody.
但我认为在六个月内，每个人都会有非常好的医生选择。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Abood, amazing.
阿布，太棒了。
Thank you so much for coming here today and, again, shedding so much light on what all of these things are.
非常感谢您今天来到这里，再次对所有这些事情进行了如此多的阐述。
You have clearly a virtuoso-level- ...
你显然拥有大师级别的——...
understanding and ability to communicate about the history of these things, what they are, what they aren't, what we know, what we still don't know, the potential upsides, the potential hazards, the regulation, and on and on.
理解和交流这些事物的历史、它们是什么、它们不是什么、我们知道什么、我们仍然不知道什么、潜在的好处、潜在的危险、监管等等的能力。
There are 50 other topics that you and I must talk about at some point.
还有 50 个其他话题你和我必须在某个时候讨论。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Your knowledge of hormones in men and women, pregnancy and women's hormones affecting the fetus, how progesterone impacts DHT in male offspring.
您对男性和女性荷尔蒙、怀孕和影响胎儿的女性荷尔蒙、黄体酮如何影响男性后代 DHT 的了解。
Incredible.
极好的。
Absolutely want to have you back to have that discussion, but we'll let people digest this in the meantime.
绝对希望您能回来进行讨论，但我们会让人们同时消化这一点。
We'll put links to where people can find you.
我们将提供人们可以找到您的链接。
And I just want to say thank you for doing what you do.
我只想对你们所做的事情表示感谢。
And if you don't mind me sharing, you're 33 years old?
如果你不介意我分享的话，你已经33岁了？
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love that you're a clinician and you're practicing medicine, but please keep, wherever you can, keep up your efforts as a public educator.
我喜欢你是一名临床医生并且正在行医，但请尽可能继续作为一名公共教育者的努力。
Come back and talk to us again.
回来再和我们谈谈。
You're a gift to us all, and thank you so much.
你是给我们所有人的一份礼物，非常感谢你。
Dr. Abud Bakri:
阿布德·巴克里博士：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
It's a pleasure to be here, and thank you for the kind words.
很高兴来到这里，感谢您的美言。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Abud Bakri.
感谢您参加今天与 Abud Bakri 博士的讨论。
To learn more about his work and to find links to the various things we discussed, please see the show note captions.
要了解有关他的工作的更多信息并找到我们讨论的各种内容的链接，请参阅节目注释标题。
I should also mention that Dr. Bakri has just released a new app which is focused on circadian biology, which we didn't talk about today, but he's a true expert there as well.
我还应该提到的是，Bakri 博士刚刚发布了一款专注于昼夜节律生物学的新应用程序，我们今天没有讨论这一点，但他也是这方面真正的专家。
You can also find a link to that app in the show note caption.
您还可以在显示注释标题中找到该应用程序的链接。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的关注按钮来关注播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review, and you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您可以给我们留下五星级的评论，现在您可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客或嘉宾有意见，或者您希望我为 Huberman Lab 播客考虑的主题，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience, and it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这是我花了五年多时间编写的一本书，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验，涵盖了从睡眠到运动到压力控制的各个方面的方案，以及与注意力和动机相关的方案，当然，我还为所包含的方案提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There you can find links to various vendors.
在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." And if you're not already following me on social media, I am HubermanLab on all social media platforms.
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 HubermanLab。
So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。
Again, it's HubermanLab on all social media platforms.
同样，所有社交媒体平台上都是 HubermanLab。
And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.
我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。
All of that is available completely zero cost.
所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter, and enter your email.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的“菜单”选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件即可。
And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Abud Bakri.
再次感谢您参加今天与 Abud Bakri 博士的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
"I don't think I can be your friend," Isabella said.
“我想我不能成为你的朋友，”伊莎贝拉说。
Rebecca's stomach flipped.
丽贝卡的胃翻腾起来。
This is the love story of real Hinge couple Isabella and Rebecca, written and read by me, Tembi Denton-Hurst.
这是真实的铰链夫妇伊莎贝拉和丽贝卡的爱情故事，由我 Tembi Denton-Hurst 撰写和阅读。
Listen to the free audiobook now.
立即收听免费有声读物。