Pavel Tsatsouline: The Correct Way to Build Strength, Endurance & Flexibility at Any Age
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Pavel Tsatsouline.
今天我的客人是帕维尔·察苏林 (Pavel Tsatsouline)。
Pavel Tsatsouline is considered one of the premier strength training and fitness coaches in the world.
Pavel Tsatsouline 被认为是世界上最优秀的力量训练和健身教练之一。
He has pioneered the development of various programs to improve strength, which he calls the mother of all fitness.
他率先开发了各种提高力量的项目，他称之为“健身之母”。
Indeed, today you will learn about strength as a practice, as a skill that can be applied to sports, that can be applied to general fitness, to getting leaner, to getting faster, and to improving your endurance.
事实上，今天您将了解力量作为一种练习，作为一种可以应用于运动的技能，可以应用于一般健身、变得更瘦、变得更快以及提高耐力。
As Pavel Tsatsouline explains, by building one's strength through body weight exercises, free weight exercises, and occasionally machines, one can develop incredible levels of fitness at any age.
正如 Pavel Tsatsouline 所解释的那样，通过自重练习、自由重量练习以及偶尔的器械锻炼来增强体力，任何年龄段的人都可以达到令人难以置信的健康水平。
We discuss some of the spectacular examples of people in their 70s and 80s performing strength feats like 100 pull-ups per week, and we emphasize that one does not have to be seeking hypertrophy.
我们讨论了一些 70 多岁和 80 多岁的人每周进行 100 次引体向上等力量壮举的惊人例子，我们强调，人们不必追求肌肉肥大。
One does not have to be seeking getting larger muscles in order to get exceptionally strong.
一个人不必为了变得异常强壮而寻求更大的肌肉。
I myself, these days, am focusing primarily on trying to get stronger and build endurance for sake of health and for general life reasons, and because getting really strong turns out to be very beneficial in every aspect of life.
为了健康和一般生活的原因，我自己现在主要专注于努力变得更强壮和增强耐力，因为变得真正强壮对生活的各个方面都非常有益。
Today, you're going to learn how to get extremely strong.
今天，您将学习如何变得非常强壮。
You can add muscle if you want in parallel with that, or, as Pavel Tsatsouline explains, you can pursue strength and flexibility for their own sake, and there's tremendous value for doing so.
如果你想同时增加肌肉，你可以增加肌肉，或者，正如 Pavel Tsatsouline 解释的那样，你可以为了力量和灵活性本身而追求力量和灵活性，这样做有巨大的价值。
So today's discussion pertains to women, to men, and frankly to people of all ages.
所以今天的讨论涉及女性、男性，坦率地说，也涉及所有年龄段的人。
I do think that pursuing strength as its own thing, independent of muscle growth, which we hear so much about these days.
我确实认为追求力量是一件独立的事情，与我们现在经常听到的肌肉生长无关。
Everyone wants hypertrophy, grow muscle, this and that.
每个人都想要肥大、长出肌肉，等等。
Pursuing strength as its own thing is a tremendously valuable endeavor.
追求力量本身就是一项非常有价值的努力。
Today, you're going to learn how from the world's premier expert in this topic.
今天，您将向该主题的世界顶级专家学习如何进行。
You're in for a very special episode with Pavel Tsatsouline.
您将与 Pavel Tsatsouline 一起观看非常特别的剧集。
He is truly in a class all his own when it comes to fitness and strength training.
在健身和力量训练方面，他确实是独一无二的。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, this episode does include sponsors.
为了与这个主题保持一致，这一集确实有赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Pavel Tsatsouline.
现在我与 Pavel Tsatsouline 进行讨论。
Pavel Tsatsouline, welcome.
帕维尔·查苏林，欢迎。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Andrew, pleasure to be on your podcast.
安德鲁，很高兴出现在你的播客上。
I respect your work a lot.
我非常尊重你的工作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Likewise.
同样地。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I will say that you and perhaps one other person have truly changed the way that I think about fitness, the way that I train, and I'm super excited to talk to you today.
我想说的是，你和另外一个人确实改变了我对健身和训练方式的看法，我非常高兴今天能与你交谈。
So I'm withholding excitement.
所以我抑制住兴奋。
There are a bunch of different ways to think about this thing that we call fitness, strength, endurance, hypertrophy, and there's so much information out there now.
有很多不同的方式来思考这个我们称之为健身、力量、耐力、肥大的东西，而且现在有很多信息。
How do you conceptualize fitness?
您如何理解健身？
Meaning, do you look at things through the lens of are we focused on nervous system, bone, connective tissue, or muscle?
意思是，你是否通过我们关注神经系统、骨骼、结缔组织或肌肉的镜头来看待事物？
Do you look at things through the lens of anterior chain, posterior chain, hypertrophy, strength?
你是否通过前链、后链、肥大、力量的镜头来看待事物？
I would just like to get your sort of high-level conceptualization of this thing that we call fitness with the idea in mind that most people would like to have some level of endurance, some level of strength, and feel healthy and presumably look however they want to look.
我只是想让你对我们称之为健身的东西有一个高层次的概念，记住大多数人都希望拥有一定程度的耐力、一定程度的力量、感觉健康并且看起来像他们想要的样子。
But let's set aesthetics aside for the moment.
但让我们暂时把美学放在一边。
How do you think about this thing we call fitness?
您如何看待我们所说的健身这件事？
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Well, first of all, Andrew, is strength is the mother quality of all the other qualities.
嗯，首先，安德鲁，力量是所有其他品质的根源。
So this is, again, it's a statement by Professor Matveev, Leonid Matveev, going way back.
所以，这又是马特维耶夫教授、列昂尼德·马特维耶夫的声明，可以追溯到很久以前。
And without a foundation of strength, you cannot build anything.
没有力量的基础，你就无法建造任何东西。
So any athletic event requires a base of strength.
因此，任何体育赛事都需要力量基础。
Of course, that shot putter's going to need much more strength than triathlon athlete, but they all need strength.
当然，铅球运动员比铁人三项运动员需要更多的力量，但他们都需要力量。
Speaking of which, in triathlon, in marathon running, in distance, in cycling, it's been proven that putting athletes on a heavy, low-repetition strength regimen, the kind that doesn't really add muscle but just makes you stronger neurologically, it makes them race faster.
说到这一点，在铁人三项、马拉松、长跑、自行车比赛中，事实证明，让运动员进行大重量、低重复次数的力量训练，这种训练并不能真正增加肌肉，而只是让你的神经变得更强，这会让他们跑得更快。
So once you're stronger, everything becomes easier.
所以一旦你变得更强，一切都会变得更容易。
How much stronger you need to get, that will vary.
你需要变得多强，这会有所不同。
In the Soviet Union, they had something called the model athlete.
在苏联，他们有一种叫做模范运动员的东西。
So they figured out that for every particular event, your odds of succeeding are going to be much higher if you're able to squat this much or bench this much and jump this high and so on and so forth.
所以他们发现，对于每一个特定的项目，如果你能够深蹲这么多或卧推这么多并跳这么高等等，那么你成功的几率会更高。
And this is easy enough to find these numbers for your individual sport and talk to various coaches.
找到您个人运动的这些数据并与不同的教练交谈很容易。
For people who are not competitive athletes, who just want to enjoy life, you just need to think about having a reserve of strength for whatever it is that you might do.
对于那些不是竞技运动员、只想享受生活的人来说，你只需要考虑为你可能做的任何事情保留力量。
So look at some PT standards in, let's say, in the military or in law enforcement and possibly apply them to yourself.
因此，看看军队或执法部门的一些 PT 标准，并可能将它们应用到您自己身上。
I don't want to impose my set of standards because there are many different-- I might prefer pull-ups and X and Y and Z, but if we're looking at strength as the foundation for general physical preparation, right?
我不想强加我的一套标准，因为有很多不同的标准——我可能更喜欢引体向上、X、Y 和 Z，但如果我们将力量视为一般身体准备的基础，对吗？
So there's such a thing as general strength preparation, that's part of that.
所以有一般力量准备这样的事情，这是其中的一部分。
There's also special strength, which is sport-specific work that's different.
还有特殊力量，这是不同的运动专项工作。
And there are different ways of getting this done.
完成这项工作有不同的方法。
But as you and I know that certain exercises are going to have a great carryover outside these particular exercises.
但正如你我所知，某些练习将在这些特定练习之外产生很大的影响。
So as long as you're mobile, as long as you're symmetrical, and those are the things you have to address first, you need to look into work of Gray Cook, for example.
因此，只要你可以移动，只要你是对称的，这些都是你必须首先解决的问题，例如，你需要研究格雷·库克的作品。
Then strength has to be your priority.
那么实力就必须是你的首要任务。
Once you have reached a certain level of strength that's appropriate for your sport or appropriate for your lifestyle, at that point, you can just maintain it and focus on other qualities So I will give you an example.
一旦你达到了适合你的运动或适合你的生活方式的一定强度水平，那时，你就可以保持它并专注于其他品质所以我会给你一个例子。
Soviet scientists, Verkhoshansky and Denisenko, they measured a number of athletes in 20 different sports, athletes of different levels.
苏联科学家Verkhoshansky和Denisenko，他们测量了20个不同运动项目、不同水平的运动员的数量。
So they evaluated various quality.
所以他们评估了各种质量。
One was absolute strength, another was rate of force development, pretty much power, and the third is the rate of muscular relaxation.
一是绝对力量，二是力量发展率，几乎是力量，三是肌肉放松率。
So how quickly the muscle can relax after contraction, which is very important.
那么肌肉在收缩后能够多快地放松，这一点非常重要。
And they have found that strength grew just very little from the intermediate level to the advanced level.
而且他们发现，从中级到高级，实力增长的幅度非常小。
There's not a lot of improvement.
没有太大的改进。
Power increased a little bit more.
力量又增加了一些。
But the speed of relaxation just shot up as the athlete became more advanced.
但随着运动员水平的提高，放松的速度也随之加快。
So strength, it is the mother of all qualities, but that's not the end goal for everybody.
所以力量，它是一切品质之母，但这并不是每个人的最终目标。
So reach the level that is appropriate for your sport or activity, then just maintain it efficiently and focus on something else.
因此，达到适合您的运动或活动的水平，然后有效地保持它并专注于其他事情。
If we talk about strength.
如果我们谈论实力。
If we talk about other qualities, well, we can get to them later.
如果我们谈论其他品质，那么我们可以稍后再讨论。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
What movements do you believe, if they exist, all people should include in their weekly routine someplace when thinking about how to develop, perhaps maintain, but for most people, it's going to be the goal of still achieving some strength.
您认为哪些运动（如果存在）应该包含在每周例行公事中的某个地方，以考虑如何发展（也许是维持），但对于大多数人来说，这将是仍然获得一定力量的目标。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Strength increase, excuse me.
力量增强，请原谅。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
I think there has to be a very low quantity of exercises, just very few exercises you want to focus on.
我认为练习的数量必须非常少，你想要集中精力的练习就很少。
And I'm going to give you some options to choose from.
我将为您提供一些选项供您选择。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
So what we try to do at StrongFirst, in my company, my school of strength, is we try to provide people with various simple, very low-tech, high-concept ways of reaching their needs.
因此，在 StrongFirst，在我的公司，我的优势学校，我们试图做的是，我们尝试为人们提供各种简单、技术含量很低、高概念的方法来满足他们的需求。
Because for one reason or another, for this individual, the barbell is the preferred tool.
因为出于某种原因，对于这个人来说，杠铃是首选工具。
For another, it's the kettlebell or body weight or something else.
另一方面，是壶铃或体重或其他东西。
So I'm not going to say that if you don't do kettlebell swings or barbell squats, you'll never amount to anything.
所以我并不是说如果你不做壶铃摆动或杠铃深蹲，你就永远不会有任何成就。
That's just not true.
那不是真的。
But you can pick some events.
但你可以选择一些事件。
So you definitely ought to do something for your posterior chain.
所以你绝对应该为你的后链做一些事情。
You absolutely do.
你绝对会的。
If we are looking at the barbell, I would start out with the narrow sumo deadlift.
如果我们看杠铃，我会从窄相扑硬拉开始。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So this is narrow grip, but it's-
所以这是窄握距，但它是-
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Not narrow grip, pardon me, but your stance is just wide enough to let your arms through.
原谅我，握距不是很窄，但是你的站距足够宽，可以让你的手臂穿过。
Your arms stay parallel to each other.
你的手臂保持彼此平行。
And so you just find a very comfortable stance for yourself.
所以你只是为自己找到一个非常舒服的姿势。
So Professor McGill has been on your podcast.
麦吉尔教授一直在你的播客上。
He explained to you about the different hip architecture and so on.
他向你解释了不同的髋关节结构等等。
So you have to find whatever works for you.
所以你必须找到适合你的东西。
And when people talk about functional strength training, and then they start standing on a ball and juggle oranges, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me because that doesn't look like my life or yours probably, right?
当人们谈论功能性力量训练，然后他们开始站在球上玩弄橙子时，这对我来说没有多大意义，因为这看起来不像我或你的生活，对吧？
But if you have to get a heavy bag of groceries or something, you got to deadlift.
但如果你必须拿一袋沉重的杂货或其他东西，你就必须硬拉。
And the narrow sumo deadlift, so if you look at powerlifters, a classic example would be Ed Coan.
还有窄幅相扑硬拉，所以如果你看看举重运动员，一个典型的例子就是埃德·科恩。
That's a narrow stance sumo.
这是一种窄站相扑。
I'm not talking about wide sumo.
我说的不是宽相扑。
That's a very sport-specific event.
这是一项非常具有运动特色的赛事。
And you practice that first.
你先练习一下。
You learn how to hip hinge.
您将学习如何进行髋关节铰链。
It's extremely important to learn how to hip hinge.
学习如何髋关节铰链非常重要。
Again, Stuart stressed how important it is for your back health and for your longevity.
斯图尔特再次强调了它对于您的背部健康和长寿的重要性。
So you learn to do that.
所以你要学会这样做。
Then whether you decide to pursue the deadlift or not, if you decide not to pursue high numbers in the deadlift, maybe it's not appropriate for you or maybe you lack in the coaching, a fantastic exercise for everybody is a Zercher squat.
然后，无论你是否决定进行硬拉，如果你决定不追求硬拉的高次数，也许它不适合你，或者也许你缺乏教练，对每个人来说，Zercher 深蹲都是一个很棒的练习。
So in the Zercher squat, you hold the bar like this in the crooks of your elbows.
所以在 Zercher 深蹲中，你像这样将杠铃放在肘部的弯曲处。
So it's resting right here.
所以它就在这里休息。
It's possible to pick it up off the ground, but it's an advanced skill.
可以把它从地上捡起来，但这是一项高级技能。
Better just to walk it off the rack.
最好直接把它从架子上取下来。
The advantage of the Zercher squat over, let's say, the back squat or the front squat is even if you have messed up shoulders, wrists, elbows, you still can do that.
Zercher深蹲的优势在于，比方说后深蹲或前深蹲，即使你的肩膀、手腕、肘部有问题，你仍然可以做到。
Coaching the Zercher squat is very easy, very simple.
指导 Zercher 深蹲非常容易、非常简单。
And you have tremendous reflexive stabilization of your midsection.
而且你的腹部具有巨大的反射稳定性。
It's just very powerful.
它非常强大。
So you acquire that skill of getting tight.
这样你就掌握了收紧的技巧。
So getting high numbers on that exercise in the Zercher, so let's say an athlete could shoot for double body weight.
因此，在 Zercher 中进行这项练习时获得很高的成绩，所以假设一名运动员可以射出两倍于体重的重量。
That's a really good goal.
这是一个非常好的目标。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the bar, for those listening, not watching-
还有酒吧，对于那些倾听而不是观看的人来说——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Sits right here
就坐在这里
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is cradled in the crooks of the elbows-
被抱在肘弯里——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Correct
正确
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in front of the body.
在身体前面。
Are the arms crossed?
双臂交叉吗？
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
You can hold them like this.
你可以像这样握住它们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
You can hold them like this.
你可以像这样握住它们。
There are different ways of holding them.
有不同的握持方式。
You definitely would want to get proper coaching.
您肯定希望得到适当的指导。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
You don't want to bruise yourself.
你不想弄伤自己。
You want to be comfortable.
你想要舒服。
You want to do it right.
你想要做对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
But it doesn't take a lot of skill to do that.
但做到这一点并不需要太多技巧。
You find some pressing exercise.
你会发现一些紧迫的练习。
And again, if we're sticking with the example of the barbell, the bench press has gotten a bad reputation, thanks to the gym bros.
再说一遍，如果我们坚持以杠铃为例，卧推的名声不好，这要归功于健身房的兄弟们。
And all gym bros would do is the bench pretty much.
健身房里的兄弟们几乎都会做的就是板凳。
Well, these days they also check out their phones, I guess.
嗯，我猜这些天他们也会检查手机。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Between every set.
每组之间。
The 11th rep, I joke-
第 11 名代表，我开玩笑说——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
11th rep
第 11 次代表
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is when people check in their phones.
是人们检查手机的时候。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Yeah, there we go.
是的，我们开始吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
But if you look at athletes, the athletes who also do some lower body work, some posterior chain work, and something for the midsection, and again, Zercher squat could address that, they are making a great use of the bench press.
但如果你观察一下运动员，他们也会做一些下半身训练、一些后链训练以及一些上腹部训练，而 Zercher 深蹲可以解决这个问题，他们正在充分利用卧推。
So it's a very simple exercise.
所以这是一个非常简单的练习。
Well, not very simple.
嗯，不是很简单。
It's a relatively simple exercise.
这是一个相对简单的练习。
And unlike other pressing exercises, it allows you to make strength gains with a very low volume of training.
与其他推举练习不同，它可以让您通过极低的训练量来获得力量。
So you can do several sets of five once a week in the bench press and keep getting stronger.
因此，您可以每周进行几次卧推，每组五次，并不断变得更强壮。
Good luck doing that in the overhead press or in the one-arm pushup or something like that.
祝你在过头推举或单臂俯卧撑或类似动作中好运。
So those are just a couple examples.
这些只是几个例子。
There are many other examples.
还有很多其他的例子。
You can do snatch grip deadlifts.
你可以做抓举硬拉。
The list is very long.
名单很长。
We can address the same thing in the same way with kettlebells.
我们可以用壶铃以同样的方式解决同样的问题。
You can look into body weight exercises.
您可以研究一下体重练习。
But you need to find several exercises that have a reputation for building strength that reaches beyond The ability to do this exercise.
但是您需要找到几种以增强力量而闻名的练习，其强度超出了进行此练习的能力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
If you just do curls, you're going to get better at curls, but not at much else.
如果你只做卷发，你会在卷发方面做得更好，但在其他方面却没有什么进步。
So Canadian scientists back in the '80s, Doug McNeill and his team made some interesting discoveries.
早在 80 年代，加拿大科学家 Doug McNeill 和他的团队就做出了一些有趣的发现。
Again, they just found that doing something leg extension is not going to carry over to the squat.
再次，他们发现做一些腿部伸展动作并不会延续到深蹲中。
It's just not.
事实并非如此。
The coordination is so radically different.
协调性完全不同。
So you find several exercises that you enjoy, that don't hurt you, that you have the equipment available, that you got the proper coaching for, and you pretty much stick with them.
所以你会找到一些你喜欢的练习，这些练习不会伤害你，你有可用的设备，你得到了适当的指导，并且你几乎坚持下去。
And there is absolutely no reason for you to change these exercises.
你绝对没有理由改变这些练习。
It's possible to change them on the margins, from a wide group bench press to narrow group bench press, squats with a pause, and so on and so forth, but you don't really have to do a great variety of things.
可以在边缘改变它们，从宽组卧推到窄组卧推、暂停深蹲等等，但你实际上不必做各种各样的事情。
Variety is a good topic, we can discuss this later.
多样性是个好话题，我们稍后再讨论。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
But like looking at the example of weightlifting, as much as we can find many reasons why variety could be beneficial, improve neuroplasticity, reduced risk of repeat of strain injury, and so on.
但就像举重的例子一样，我们可以找到很多理由来解释为什么多样性是有益的，可以提高神经可塑性，降低重复劳损的风险等等。
But the statistics in weightlifting, there's no correlation between the number of exercises and the platform results.
但举重的统计数据显示，练习次数和平台成绩之间没有相关性。
And for people outside the sports, it's going to be the same.
对于体育以外的人来说，情况也是一样的。
So find this just limited battery of exercises that you can do well, you can do pain-free, and just enjoy them for years.
因此，找到这一系列有限的练习，您可以做得很好，您可以无痛地进行，并且可以享受多年。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and thank our sponsor, Eight Sleep.
我想稍微休息一下，并感谢我们的赞助商“八睡”。
Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity.
August Sleep 生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。
Now, I've spoken before on this podcast about the critical need for us to get adequate amounts of quality sleep each night.
现在，我之前在这个播客上谈到过我们迫切需要每晚获得充足的优质睡眠。
Now, one of the best ways to ensure a great night's sleep is to ensure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct.
现在，确保一夜好眠的最佳方法之一是确保睡眠环境的温度正确。
And that's because in order to fall and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees.
这是因为为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，您的体温实际上必须下降约一到三度。
And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase about one to three degrees.
为了醒来时感到神清气爽、精力充沛，您的体温实际上必须升高约一到三度。
Eight Sleep makes it very easy to control the temperature of your sleeping environment by allowing you to program the temperature of your mattress cover at the beginning, middle, and end of the night.
八睡眠让您可以轻松控制睡眠环境的温度，您可以在晚上开始、中间和结束时对床垫罩的温度进行编程。
I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for nearly four years now, and it has completely transformed and improved the quality of my sleep.
我已经睡在八睡眠床垫罩上近四年了，它彻底改变并改善了我的睡眠质量。
Eight Sleep recently launched their newest generation of the pod cover called the Pod 4 Ultra.
八睡眠最近推出了他们最新一代的 Pod 4 Ultra。
The Pod 4 Ultra has improved cooling and heating capacity.
Pod 4 Ultra 改进了制冷和制热能力。
I find that very useful because I like to make the bed really cool at the beginning of the night, even colder in the middle of the night, and warm as I wake up.
我发现这非常有用，因为我喜欢让床在夜刚开始时非常凉爽，在半夜更冷，而在我醒来时却很温暖。
That's what gives me the most slow-wave sleep and rapid eye movement sleep.
这就是给我最慢波睡眠和快速动眼睡眠的原因。
It also has snoring detection that will automatically lift your head a few degrees to improve your airflow and stop your snoring.
它还具有打鼾检测功能，可自动将您的头部抬起几度，以改善气流并停止打鼾。
If you'd like to try an Eight Sleep mattress cover, go to eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $350 off their Pod 4 Ultra.
如果您想尝试 8 Sleep 床垫套，请访问 foursleep.com/huberman，Pod 4 Ultra 最多可节省 350 美元。
Eight Sleep currently ships in the USA, Canada, UK, select countries in the EU, and Australia.
八睡眠目前在美国、加拿大、英国、欧盟部分国家和澳大利亚发货。
Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman.
再说一遍，这是八睡眠.com/huberman。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Levels.
今天的节目也是Levels给我们带来的。
Levels is a program that lets you see how different foods affect your health by giving you real-time feedback on your diet using a continuous glucose monitor.
Levels 是一个程序，通过使用连续血糖监测仪为您的饮食提供实时反馈，让您了解不同的食物如何影响您的健康。
One of the most important factors in both your short- and long-term health is your body's ability to manage blood glucose or blood sugar.
影响您的短期和长期健康的最重要因素之一是您的身体管理血糖的能力。
To maintain energy and focus throughout the day, you want to keep your blood glucose steady without big spikes or crashes.
为了全天保持精力充沛和注意力集中，您希望血糖保持稳定，不要出现大幅峰值或崩溃。
I first started using Levels about three years ago as a way to understand how different foods impacted my blood glucose levels, and it's proven incredibly informative for determining my food choices, when I eat specific foods, and how I time eating relative to things like my workouts, both weight training and cardiovascular training, things like running.
大约三年前，我第一次开始使用水平作为了解不同食物如何影响我的血糖水平的一种方式，事实证明，它对于确定我的食物选择、何时吃特定食物以及我如何相对于锻炼、重量训练和心血管训练、跑步等事物来安排饮食时间提供了令人难以置信的信息。
And when to eat before I go to sleep to allow for the most stable blood sugar throughout the night.
睡觉前什么时候吃东西可以让整个晚上的血糖保持最稳定。
Indeed, using Levels has helped shape my entire schedule.
事实上，使用 Levels 帮助我制定了整个日程安排。
So if you're interested in learning more about Levels and trying a CGM yourself, you can go to levels.link/huberman.
因此，如果您有兴趣了解有关 Levels 的更多信息并亲自尝试 CGM，可以访问levels.link/huberman。
Levels has just launched a new CGM sensor that is smaller and has even better tracking than before.
Levels 刚刚推出了一款新的 CGM 传感器，它比以前更小，但跟踪能力更好。
Right now, they're also offering an additional two free months of membership.
现在，他们还提供额外两个月的免费会员资格。
Again, that's levels.link, spelled L-I-N-K, /huberman to try the new sensor and two free months of membership.
同样，这是levels.link，拼写为L-I-N-K，/huberman，用于尝试新传感器和两个月的免费会员资格。
Would a combination across the week of some sort of squat, let's say the Zercher squat, perhaps a kettlebell swing or something else for posterior chain pull-up and dip be a fairly comprehensive program?
一周内进行某种深蹲的组合，比如 Zercher 深蹲，也许是壶铃摆动或其他后链引体向上和臂屈伸的训练，是一个相当全面的计划吗？
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm a fan of dips.
我是蘸酱的粉丝。
I like dips a lot.
我非常喜欢蘸酱。
I heard you say that some years ago you said that you were using dips for economy of time.
我听你说，几年前你说你使用逢低交易是为了节省时间。
And I started getting into dips.
我开始陷入困境。
I haven't quite figured out the best way to load dips once-- Because once you get past 15, 20 repetitions of the body weight dip, it turns into something else.
我还没有完全弄清楚一次负重臂屈伸的最佳方法——因为一旦你重复了 15、20 次体重臂屈伸，它就会变成别的东西。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Sure.
当然。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It turns into aerobic exercise perhaps.
也许它变成了有氧运动。
Not me.
不是我。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Well, Luke Adams, he was a powerlifter from the golden age of American powerlifting.
卢克·亚当斯，他是来自美国举重黄金时代的举重运动员。
He says anything over six reps is bodybuilding.
他说任何超过六次的动作都是健美运动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
He had a point there.
他说得有道理。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm trying to stay in the lower rep range today.
今天我试图保持在较低的代表范围内。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'll talk about this with you more, because I think a growing number of people, both men and women, who are starting to do weight training or really incorporate strength training into their program, are seeking a combination of strength and perhaps endurance as well-
我将与您更多地讨论这个问题，因为我认为越来越多的人，无论男性还是女性，开始进行重量训练或真正将力量训练纳入他们的计划中，正在寻求力量和耐力的结合 -
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
without putting on too much size.
无需穿太大的尺码。
Maybe size in-
也许尺码为-
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
some select body parts.
有些选择身体部位。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Well, Andrew, I think they need to do possibly several different types of training, but going back to your examples, dips are fantastic if your shoulders can handle them, if you know how to do them.
好吧，安德鲁，我认为他们可能需要进行几种不同类型的训练，但回到你的例子，如果你的肩膀可以处理它们，如果你知道如何做，那么双杠臂屈伸就很棒。
It's a great exercise, but not particularly democratic.
这是一个很好的做法，但并不是特别民主。
That's the problem.
这就是问题所在。
So either you can do it safely or you can't.
所以要么你可以安全地做到这一点，要么你不能。
And it's possible to coach some people to do the dip.
并且可以指导一些人进行臂屈伸。
So if you're coaching somebody to do the dip, the first prerequisite is to build up to a full skin the cat.
因此，如果您要指导某人进行浸浴，第一个先决条件是让猫的皮肤变得完整。
So it means you're hanging upside down, look up what it means, folks, on a bar So you got to be able to get yourself in that position.
所以这意味着你正在倒挂，伙计们，查一下这意味着什么，在酒吧上所以你必须能够让自己处于那个位置。
So if you're able to do that, and if you're able to get out of the position strongly and confidently, there is a good chance that you can start up in doing dips and be coached into that.
因此，如果你能够做到这一点，并且能够坚强而自信地摆脱这个姿势，那么你很有可能开始做臂屈伸，并接受指导。
If you can't, probably not.
如果你不能，可能不会。
So either try to build up to that, unless there are medical restrictions, or not.
因此，要么努力实现这一目标，除非有医疗限制，要么不这样做。
You mentioned the example of pull-ups.
你提到了引体向上的例子。
Absolutely, pull-ups are one of the best general strength exercises.
毫无疑问，引体向上是最好的一般力量练习之一。
And again, to your listeners, general versus special.
再说一遍，对你的听众来说，一般与特殊。
Special in Soviet terminology just means sport specific.
苏联术语中的“特殊”只是指特定于运动项目。
So the carry over when you start doing pull-ups, when you excel at pull-ups or the dips, you are going to get a carry over so far beyond this exercise, which is exactly the reason you do that.
因此，当你开始做引体向上时，当你擅长引体向上或双杠臂屈伸时，你将获得远远超出此练习的结转，这正是你这样做的原因。
So I like your choices very much.
所以我非常喜欢你的选择。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What about specialized training for grip strength?
握力的专门训练怎么样？
I believe that if somebody's large, if they can squat 500 pounds, if they can deadlift 600 pounds, I don't really care.
我相信，如果一个人块头很大，如果他们能深蹲 500 磅，如果他们能硬拉 600 磅，我真的不在乎。
The question is, can you open the pickle jar?
问题是，你能打开泡菜罐吗？
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is a critical home test.
这是一个关键的家庭测试。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
I just get my wife to do it.
我只是让我的妻子去做。
So, grip strength is extremely important.
所以说，握力非常重要。
And you being a neuroscientist, you know the disproportionate representation in the motor cortex of your gripping muscles in the forearm and everything.
作为一名神经科学家，您知道前臂的抓握肌肉和所有部位的运动皮层中不成比例的代表性。
And there is another reason why grip is so important.
抓地力如此重要还有另一个原因。
So if you make a fist, if you make a very tight fist, you're going to feel the overflow of tension, irradiation going to other muscles.
所以如果你握拳，如果你握得很紧，你会感觉到紧张的溢出，辐射到其他肌肉。
So pretty much by gripping tighter, you are instantly increasing your strength in anything that you do.
因此，通过握得更紧，你所做的任何事情都会立即增强力量。
And so a very simple example for your listeners.
这是给听众的一个非常简单的例子。
Take some pedestrian exercise like curls and do as many strict reps as you possibly can, the way you normally do them.
进行一些步行锻炼，例如弯举，并按照平时的方式尽可能多地严格重复。
And then start just crushing that bar or that dumbbell or whatever that you're curling.
然后开始压碎杠铃、哑铃或任何你正在弯举的东西。
You will immediately be able to knock out several more reps.
您将立即能够击败更多代表。
So that makes you so much stronger.
所以这会让你变得更坚强。
And again, the value of a strong wrist and grip is obviously very important.
再说一遍，强壮的手腕和握力显然非常重要。
For whatever reason, obviously it correlates with longevity.
无论出于何种原因，它显然与长寿相关。
We don't know why.
我们不知道为什么。
We have no idea.
我们不知道。
Correlation is not causation, so we don't know whether getting a stronger grip is going to make us live longer, but statistically it's worth a try, right?
相关性不是因果性，所以我们不知道握力更强是否会让我们活得更久，但从统计数据来看，这值得一试，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
So one can either find exercises that train the grip in the context of developing something else or train the grip directly.
因此，人们可以在开发其他东西的背景下找到训练握力的练习，或者直接训练握力。
So either way is great.
所以无论哪种方式都很棒。
So the first examples would be climbing the rope or doing pull-ups and weighted pull-ups on a rope.
因此，第一个例子是爬绳子或在绳子上做引体向上和负重引体向上。
That's a great way to train, obviously.
显然，这是一种很好的训练方式。
So what you do, the way you program it is, let's say once a week you climb the rope and couple days a week you do pull-ups.
所以你做什么，你的编程方式是，假设你每周爬一次绳子，每周有几天做引体向上。
That's a good way to go about it.
这是一个好方法。
And you don't need to do anything else.
而且您不需要做任何其他事情。
And another example would be some exercises like the kettlebell snatch.
另一个例子是壶铃抓举等一些练习。
When you start snatching a heavy kettlebell and you drop it from overhead, that eccentric loading is very, very powerful.
当你开始抓起一个沉重的壶铃并将其从头顶扔下时，这种偏心载荷非常非常强大。
And that develops grip very, very well.
这可以很好地增强抓地力。
And again, right now we're talking more about what people in the grip world call the crushing grip.
再说一遍，现在我们更多地谈论握力世界中人们所说的“压碎握力”。
How you squeeze something.
你如何挤压某物。
There are other types of grip that they differentiated, but this type of crushing grip is what's going to help most athletes and non-athletes the most.
他们还区分了其他类型的握把，但这种压碎式握把对大多数运动员和非运动员最有帮助。
And I will also warn you that hanging on the bar and doing farmer's carries, beneficial as they are for many reasons, it's not going to do that much for it in that way.
我还要警告你，挂在酒吧上并进行农民的携带，虽然出于多种原因有益，但以这种方式不会有那么多作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Interesting.
有趣的。
I started incorporating farmer's carries thinking it was going to improve my grip, but-
我开始结合农夫的携带，以为这会提高我的抓地力，但是-
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
They're healthy.
他们很健康。
If you look at McGill's work, he will tell you that carrying two heavy objects, it's going to really pound your spine.
如果你看一下麦吉尔的作品，他会告诉你，搬运两个重物，真的会重击你的脊椎。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
But on the other hand, asymmetrical carry, it appears to be very beneficial.
但另一方面，不对称利差，却显得非常有利。
Then there's another interesting example.
还有另一个有趣的例子。
Now, right now, I'm not talking about grip training at all.
现在，现在，我根本不是在谈论握力训练。
I'm not even talking about strength training.
我什至不是在谈论力量训练。
But I'm talking about sort of a former run.
但我说的是以前的跑步。
Dr. Mike Prevost, who used to work with the US Marine Corps and Navy, he developed this very interesting protocol and a test he called the kettlebell mile, where you take a kettlebell that's approximately 30% of your body weight and he has good reasons for why it has to be that way.
迈克·普雷沃斯特博士曾在美国海军陆战队和海军工作过，他开发了一个非常有趣的协议和一项他称之为“壶铃英里”的测试，在该测试中，你拿着一个约占你体重 30% 的壶铃，他有充分的理由解释为什么必须这样做。
And you pretty much run with this kettlebell.
你几乎是用这个壶铃跑步的。
And you switch hands as often as you want.
而且你可以根据需要频繁地换手。
And it's a fantastic way to improve your running posture, to develop various stabilizing muscles, and to improve your ability to ruck, but it doesn't beat you up as much rucking does.
这是改善跑步姿势、锻炼各种稳定肌肉以及提高扭力能力的绝佳方法，但它不会像扭力那样让您感到疲惫不堪。
Rucking, carrying heavy weight, it's rough on the body.
搬运、搬运重物，对身体来说很艰难。
So it's a fantastic way to train your endurance, an additional way.
所以这是训练耐力的绝佳方法，也是一种额外的方法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How heavy is the kettlebell that you-
你的壶铃有多重——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
30%.
30%。
Because he says when you start going heavier, it's going to affect your gait, so you have to kick your hip-
因为他说当你开始变重时，它会影响你的步态，所以你必须踢你的臀部——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
...
...
over to the side.
到一边。
It becomes something else.
它变成了别的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a heavy kettlebell.
那是一个很重的壶铃。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
It's 30% of your body weight.
它是你体重的30%。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I'm 210 pounds.
我210磅。
It's not trivial.
这不是小事。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Oh, it's probably-
哦，这可能是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
...
...
something like to 62 pounds or something like that.
大约 62 磅或类似的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
70-pound kettlebell.
70磅的壶铃。
No, it's not trivial by any means.
不，无论如何，这都不是小事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
But it's also not something you jump into immediately.
但这也不是你立即投入的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
And also what's very cool is because you get to switch hands very often, you are not destroying your QL and other stabilizers that are contracting isometrically.
而且非常酷的是，因为你可以经常换手，所以你不会破坏你的 QL 和其他等长收缩的稳定器。
And so what we're doing right now here is kind of a form of anti-glycolytic training.
所以我们现在正在做的是一种抗糖酵解训练。
If your muscle contracts briefly and then relaxes, contracts, relaxes, and the contraction cycles are really short, you're able to avoid glycolysis.
如果您的肌肉短暂收缩，然后放松，收缩，放松，并且收缩周期非常短，您就可以避免糖酵解。
You're able to keep that muscle working aerobically for a long time and not beat yourself down.
你可以让肌肉长时间保持有氧运动，而不会打败自己。
So to the listeners who'd like to try it, start by walking with a kettlebell.
所以对于想要尝试的听众来说，可以从拿着壶铃走路开始。
Switch hands often, and then eventually build up to running and obviously build up gradually.
经常换手，然后最终开始跑步，并且显然是逐渐积累的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Held like a suitcase?
像手提箱一样拿着？
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Yes.
是的。
Only like a suitcase.
只像一个手提箱。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Yeah, there's a podcast Led by a guy named Cam Haynes.
是的，有一个播客，由一个名叫 Cam Haynes 的人领导。
He's a bow hunter.
他是一名弓箭猎人。
He's one of the people that really brought extreme fitness and ultras to the sport of bow hunting, and is legendary there.
他是真正将极限健身和超强能力带入弓箭狩猎运动的人之一，并且是那里的传奇人物。
And for his podcast, he has you carry this 72-pound rock up, it's about 1,000 feet of elevation-
在他的播客中，他让你把这块 72 磅重的岩石搬上来，海拔大约 1,000 英尺——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Okay
好的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the Oregon wilderness.
在俄勒冈州的荒野中。
And I've done it.
我已经做到了。
It's hard because of the shape of the thing.
由于物体的形状，这很困难。
And so you're moving it from shoulder to football carry to infant carry in.
所以你要把它从肩背式转移到足球携带式，再到婴儿携带式。
You're not talking about that.
你不是在谈论那个。
You're talking about suitcase on the right.
你说的是右边的手提箱。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Correct.
正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are you trying to crush the grip while you're doing it?
当你这样做时，你是否试图压碎抓地力？
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
No, you're not.
不，你不是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No. Okay.
不，好吧。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
No. This is not developing your grip whatsoever.
不。这无论如何都不会增强你的握力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you're running at a 10, 20 minutes, 30 minutes?
你跑步的时间是 10 分钟、20 分钟还是 30 分钟？
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Well, his goal, he says run for a mile.
好吧，他的目标是跑一英里。
That's the goal.
这就是目标。
And he has some numbers.
他有一些数字。
I can give you a link.
我可以给你一个链接。
You can look it up.
你可以查一下。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Dr. Mike Privost.
迈克·普里沃斯特博士。
And direct grip strength training is great as well.
直接握力训练也很棒。
So for example, the best products for that would be the Captains of Crush Grippers from Iron Mind.
例如，最好的产品就是 Iron Mind 的 Captains of Crush Grippers。
Iron Mind is the company that started a serious grip training pretty much in the modern era, and their grippers are the golden standard.
Iron Mind 是一家几乎在现代就开始进行严格握力训练的公司，他们的握力器是黄金标准。
Some years ago, my colleague at StrongFirst, Brad Jones, and I, we decided to get serious about it and see what that feels like.
几年前，我和 StrongFirst 的同事布拉德·琼斯 (Brad Jones) 决定认真对待这件事，看看那是什么感觉。
And we spent many months.
我们花了好几个月。
We were both able to build up to closing the number three gripper from a parallel set.
我们都能够从平行组中逐渐闭合第三个夹具。
So, that means that gripper takes 280 pounds to close.
因此，这意味着夹具需要 280 磅才能关闭。
And when you're using very small muscle groups, it's extremely hard.
当你使用非常小的肌肉群时，这是非常困难的。
And the observations that we both made, and other colleagues and people have made, that once you are able to do that, everything becomes so much easier.
根据我们以及其他同事和人们的观察，一旦你能够做到这一点，一切都会变得容易得多。
However, the training itself is extremely hard because people are thinking that when you're training the grip, it's just some kind of isolated thing.
然而，训练本身非常困难，因为人们认为当你训练握力时，这只是某种孤立的事情。
You can drive the car and you can kind of squeeze this little pink thing that you picked up at the department store.
你可以开车，你可以挤压你在百货商店买的这个粉红色的小东西。
No. When you train with a heavy-duty gripper like the one from Iron Mind, it's a full-body effort and you need to use pretty much every neurological trick in the book in order to exert yourself.
不。当你使用像《钢铁意志》中的重型夹具进行训练时，这是一项全身性的努力，你需要使用书中几乎所有的神经学技巧来发挥自己的力量。
So for example, if you have ever seen the Sanchin stance in karate, which is a stance where the knees are kind of pulled inward and shoulders are pressed down.
举例来说，如果您曾经见过空手道中的三钦姿势，这是一种膝盖向内拉、肩膀下压的姿势。
There's a lot of tension.
有很多紧张。
Everything's very seriously engaged.
一切都非常认真地进行。
The toes are gripping the ground.
脚趾紧紧抓住地面。
So you're pretty much gripping the ground with your toes.
所以你几乎是用脚趾抓住地面的。
You're contracting your glutes.
你正在收缩你的臀肌。
You're bracing very hard.
你的支撑非常努力。
You're compressing your viscera.
你正在压缩你的内脏。
Your lat is firing and you're sending all this effort.
你的纬度正在发射，你正在付出所有的努力。
The only thing they're not working, like you try to keep your traps and face out of this, and you're directing this effort into your grip.
他们唯一不起作用的是，就像你试图让你的陷阱和脸远离它，而你正在将这种努力引导到你的手中。
You get just as tired from doing that work as from doing heavy squats or something.
做这项工作和做大重量的深蹲之类的事情一样，你也会感到疲劳。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
That's remarkable.
这太了不起了。
But if you like that, it's a fantastic thing to do.
但如果你喜欢这样，那就太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
The motor neuron recruitment that you are describing is phenomenal.
你所描述的运动神经元募集是惊人的。
I have one reflection on this relationship between grip strength-
我对握力之间的这种关系有一个思考——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and longevity.
和长寿。
Just a little bit of neuroscience.
只是一点点神经科学。
You may be familiar with this, so forgive me if you are, but for the listeners as well.
你可能对此很熟悉，如果你熟悉的话请原谅我，但对听众来说也是如此。
The motor neurons that control movement of the torso lie closer to the midline on both sides of the spinal cord.
控制躯干运动的运动神经元位于脊髓两侧更靠近中线的位置。
The motor neurons that are responsible for more distal muscles that is further from the midline sit outside of those.
负责远离中线的更远端肌肉的运动神经元位于这些肌肉的外侧。
And so as you get out to the movement of the digits, the fingers and toes, those are the most distal from the midline.
当你开始观察手指、手指和脚趾的运动时，它们是距离中线最远的地方。
The rate and pattern of degeneration of motor neurons as a function of aging, even if there's no ALS or Alzheimer's or Parkinson's or anything, is always outside in.
运动神经元退化的速度和模式作为衰老的函数，即使没有肌萎缩侧索硬化症、阿尔茨海默病、帕金森病或任何其他疾病，也总是由外而内的。
We don't know why this is.
我们不知道这是为什么。
It may relate to the presence of the enzyme SOD, superoxide dismutase.
这可能与 SOD（超氧化物歧化酶）的存在有关。
But it does seem that people that train their peripheral strength, they can offset some of that outside to in or distal to more close to the midline degeneration.
但似乎那些训练外围力量的人，他们可以抵消一些从外侧到内侧或从远端到更接近中线的退化。
So I believe, and this is just a belief, that it's not just correlative that when one trains their periphery they actually can offset some of the degeneration.
所以我相信，这只是一种信念，当一个人训练他们的外围时，他们实际上可以抵消一些退化，这不仅仅是相关的。
It's also the way it's mapped in the brain, which is a kind of a discussion outside of here.
这也是它在大脑中的映射方式，这是这里之外的一种讨论。
We'd need to get some diagrams up for people to really conceptualize that.
我们需要绘制一些图表，以便人们真正概念化这一点。
But it's also the case if you look at older people, 70, 80, 90, their calves are generally atrophied even if their torso is still very thick and muscular if they did training.
但如果你看看老年人，70岁、80岁、90岁，他们的小腿普遍萎缩，即使他们的躯干仍然很厚实，肌肉发达，如果他们进行训练的话。
So I feel like obviously training the core and the torso is so key, but training the peripheral muscles, at least from the perspective of longevity, it makes sense why that would be important.
所以我觉得显然训练核心和躯干是如此关键，但训练外围肌肉，至少从长寿的角度来看，这是有道理的，为什么它很重要。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Well, there are so many reasons obviously to do that.
嗯，显然有很多理由这样做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
So I think that whether you choose to do that directly with grippers-
所以我认为你是否选择直接用夹具来做到这一点-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
...
...
or, and there are some other devices obviously, unlimited number of devices and exercises, or as a part of another exercise like climbing the rope, definitely strongly encouraging your listeners to do that.
或者，显然还有一些其他设备，无限数量的设备和练习，或者作为其他练习（例如爬绳子）的一部分，绝对强烈鼓励您的听众这样做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm going to try this running with the kettlebell on one side.
我将尝试将壶铃放在一侧进行跑步。
I'll go out for a mile with it on the right and then-
我会出去一英里，它在右边，然后-
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Oh, no. You switch all the time
哦，不。你时时刻刻都在切换
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
switch back and forth as you're going.
当你要去的时候来回切换。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Switch as much as you want.
想切换多少就切换多少。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Because if you try to do it on one side, you're going to pound your stabilizers and-
因为如果你尝试在一侧进行，你就会敲击你的稳定器并且——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
...
...
just pound them.
只是敲打他们。
You're not going to recover forever.
你不会永远康复。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
And this way, this is one of the secrets to developing isometric endurance, is very rapid switching.
这样，这就是发展等长耐力的秘诀之一，就是非常快速的切换。
Short contractions-
短暂的宫缩——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
...
...
and brief rests and over and over and over.
以及短暂的休息，一遍又一遍。
That way the muscle doesn't go into ischemia and it keeps getting oxygen pretty much.
这样肌肉就不会缺血，并且能持续获得足够的氧气。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to talk about concentric versus eccentric portions of a movement.
我想谈谈运动的同心部分和偏心部分。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Concentric generally being the lifting phase and eccentric, of course, folks, the lowering phase.
同心通常是提升阶段，偏心通常是下降阶段。
Is there a case for just doing concentric movements?
有没有可能只做同心运动？
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is there a case for emphasizing the eccentric portion?
是否有强调偏心部分的情况？
How does one balance those when thinking about soreness, recovery, and frequency of training?
在考虑疼痛、恢复和训练频率时，如何平衡这些因素？
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Okay.
好的。
Well, first of all, the case for concentric only is if you're trying to minimize muscle growth and if you also are trying to minimize soreness.
嗯，首先，只有当你想尽量减少肌肉生长并且同时想尽量减少酸痛时，才需要向心。
So for athletes in weight classes or athletes in sports where you get punished by carrying extra weight, it's a very good idea.
因此，对于体重级别的运动员或从事因超重而受到惩罚的运动的运动员来说，这是一个非常好的主意。
So for example, when Barry Ross coached Allyson Felix, at that point she became the fastest.
例如，当巴里·罗斯（Barry Ross）执教艾莉森·菲利克斯（Allyson Felix）时，当时她成为最快的。
She won the 200 meters in the world.
她赢得了200米世界赛冠军。
She was 17 years old, I think.
我想她当时17岁。
She was the youngest.
她是最小的。
And so he would have her do deadlifts, and they were concentric only, and he would have her drop the bar.
所以他会让她做硬拉，而且只是同心，他会让她放下杠铃。
And the reasoning for that is exactly that.
其原因正是如此。
You're able to get stronger.
你能够变得更强。
You're not putting on extra muscle mass.
你并没有增加额外的肌肉质量。
Also, it's safe.
而且，它很安全。
It's a really very safe way to train.
这确实是一种非常安全的训练方式。
And in programming a protocol for somebody who's not necessarily in that boat, it's still just for the sake of variety, you may want to choose to avoid the eccentric on certain days.
在为不一定在这条船上的人编写协议时，这仍然只是为了多样性，您可能希望选择在某些日子避免古怪的事情。
Like you're trying to recover, accelerate the recovery.
就像你正在努力恢复一样，加速恢复。
So you lift the weight, but then you step down.
所以你举起了重物，但随后你又下降了。
So you could definitely do that.
所以你绝对可以这样做。
Eccentric work, it's supposedly very helpful to promote hypertrophy, but there are a lot of ifs and buts in there.
古怪的工作，据说对促进肥大非常有帮助，但其中有很多如果和但是。
I'm going to talk right now about the eccentric work for strength, specifically.
我现在要具体谈谈关于力量的古怪训练。
Because the muscle is strongest whenever you're lowering the weight, it's very easy to do something knuckleheaded and get hurt, which is gym bros do that all the time.
因为每当你降低重量时，肌肉都是最强壮的，所以很容易做出一些愚蠢的事情并受伤，这是健身房兄弟们经常做的事情。
And instead of doing that, what the much wiser approach is to get a perfect spotter, great competent spotter, and after you've done your normal couple of low repetition heavy sets, add maybe 5, 10 pounds over your maximum and make a perfect eccentric with an intention of lifting it.
与其这样做，更明智的方法是找一个完美的观察者，非常有能力的观察者，在你完成正常的几组低重复大重量组之后，在你的最大重量基础上增加也许 5 到 10 磅，并做一个完美的离心力，目的是举起它。
So you're lowering this bar, the bench press barbell.
所以你要降低这个杠铃，卧推杠铃。
You're lowering it to your chest and you're loading yourself like you're ready to press it back.
你将它降低到你的胸部，你正在给自己施加负荷，就像你准备好将它压回去一样。
You pause on your chest without losing tension.
你停在胸前，但不会失去紧张感。
You're ready to blast it back.
你已经准备好把它炸回来了。
And then your spotters take it off you.
然后你的观察员就把它从你身上拿下来。
And you do this about two, three times.
你这样做大约两三次。
This sort of a strategy or variation of it was used by Rick Will.
瑞克·威尔就使用了这种策略或其变体。
He was able to bench press over 500 pounds wearing a T-shirt at a body weight of about 81 back in the '80s.
上世纪80年代，他在体重约81磅的情况下，穿着T恤就能卧推超过500磅的重量。
One of the greatest bench pressers who was extremely intelligent about his training.
最伟大的卧推运动员之一，他对自己的训练非常聪明。
And he did the same thing with his heavy attempts as well.
他也通过自己的努力做了同样的事情。
And incidentally, even better-- Not even better, I should say you do this on a different day.
顺便说一句，甚至更好—— 甚至更好，我应该说你在不同的日子做这件事。
When you combine the same type of eccentric with a very perfect assisted rep, not forced rep, like bros do.
当你将相同类型的偏心动作与非常完美的辅助动作结合起来时，而不是像兄弟那样强制动作。
"It's all you, bro." And the guy's shaking there and dying.
“都是你啊，兄弟。”那家伙浑身发抖，快要死了。
No. So again, let's say that your best bench press is 315.
不。再说一遍，假设您最好的卧推是 315。
So you load up 325.
所以你加载了325。
You lower it perfectly and you're lowering at the speed of your max attempt.
你完美地降低了它，并且你正在以你最大尝试的速度降低。
So you're not going very slow.
所以你不会走得很慢。
You know how guys do it.
你知道大家是怎么做到的。
They take the first quarter of the range of motion very slow, and then they fall through.
他们在前四分之一的运动范围中非常缓慢，然后他们就失败了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
That doesn't do anything at all.
那根本没有任何作用。
No, you lower it at that rhythm of your maximal weight, you pause, and then you press it, and your training partner gives you enough assistance to make it feel like it's about your 90%.
不，你按照最大重量的节奏降低它，暂停，然后按下它，你的训练伙伴会给你足够的帮助，让你感觉好像已经达到了 90%。
So the fact is you get to feel a super maximal weight, but you're not experiencing any psychological stress.
所以事实是你会感觉到超重，但你并没有经历任何心理压力。
It's very powerful.
它非常强大。
And again, you do this maybe for one or two singles.
再说一次，你可能会为一两个单身人士这样做。
This also ties with the Soviet research on gymnasts.
这也与苏联对体操运动员的研究有关。
They came up with something called artificial controlling environment.
他们想出了一种叫做人工控制环境的东西。
So they compared a group of gymnasts that was working up to some strength-demanding skill with doing typical regressions, and at the same time, they were also working on typical strength training, weighted pull-ups and so on.
因此，他们将一组体操运动员正在练习一些需要力量的技能与进行典型的回归进行比较，同时他们也在进行典型的力量训练、负重引体向上等。
And the other group would have the coach provide this perfect assistance to enable the athlete to perform the skill at a high level, as they put it, living their motor future.
另一组则希望教练提供这种完美的帮助，使运动员能够高水平地发挥技能，正如他们所说，实现他们的运动未来。
But with enough help to make it hard, but not stressful.
但有足够的帮助使其变得困难，但没有压力。
And the difference in gains were just dramatically, they were so much gain, so much faster.
增益的差异非常显着，它们的增益如此之大，速度也如此之快。
So I would say that would be a very good way to use eccentric work.
所以我想说这将是使用古怪工作的一个非常好的方法。
Isometric training, of course, can also be very powerful for strength.
当然，等距训练也可以非常有效地增强力量。
And a great value of isometric training is in its ability to coach you to lift properly.
等长训练的巨大价值在于它能够指导您正确举重。
And not just lift properly, other athletic events as well.
不仅仅是正确举重，其他体育项目也是如此。
If let's say that you're trying to learn to throw a front kick and you're doing it, you're all over the place.
如果你正在尝试学习前踢并且你正在这么做，那么你就已经完蛋了。
But if you place your foot on a wall and if your coach or sensei positions your body, your foot in a certain way and teaches you to start applying pressure to that wall and the ground at the same time and kind of pulse it against the wall, adjust your body, and then you relax, shake off your muscles, and you go hit the bag, and suddenly you're going to do so much better.
但如果你把脚放在墙上，如果你的教练或老师以某种方式定位你的身体、你的脚，并教你开始同时向墙壁和地面施加压力，并在墙上产生脉冲，调整你的身体，然后你放松，摆脱肌肉，然后你去击球，突然间你会做得更好。
The same thing, let's say that you're trying to optimize your position for the bottom of the deadlift.
同样的事情，假设您正在尝试优化硬拉底部的位置。
So you load up more weight that you could possibly lift And then you wedge yourself under and you start applying pressure, and it doesn't feel good, so you change it a little bit.
所以你加载了更多你可能举起的重量然后你把自己楔入下面并开始施加压力，感觉不太好，所以你稍微改变一下。
So isometrics are very powerful for not just for strengthening the sticking points, but also for optimizing the angles.
因此，等轴测图非常强大，不仅可以增强关键点，还可以优化角度。
Then we're also dealing with something that there is also a great disinhibition effect.
然后我们还要处理一些也有很大的去抑制效应的东西。
So what your listeners might not know is, you have two pedals in your nervous system.
所以你的听众可能不知道的是，你的神经系统中有两个踏板。
Pardon me for telling you this, obviously you know all this.
请原谅我告诉你这些，显然你知道这一切。
But there is the excitation and inhibition.
但有兴奋和抑制之分。
There's the gas pedal and the brake pedal.
有油门踏板和制动踏板。
And there are various influences, some of them psychological, but not all of them, that are taking away from your strength.
有各种各样的影响，其中一些是心理上的，但不是全部，都会削弱你的力量。
That's called inhibition.
这就是所谓的抑制。
And under certain circumstances, there are documented cases like a lady lifting up the front of a 3,600-pound car to save her son, and there are documented cases of that.
在某些情况下，有记录在案的案例，比如一位女士抬起一辆 3,600 磅重的汽车的前部来救她的儿子，并且有这样的记录案例。
So that disinhibition takes place.
这样就会发生去抑制。
So isometrics does have some disinhibition effects properties.
所以等距确实具有一些去抑制效应特性。
Very, very powerful.
非常非常强大。
Also, isometrics teaches you not to give up on a heavy attempt.
此外，等轴测图还教你不要放弃艰巨的尝试。
The experiments were done in a safe manner on the machines, obviously.
显然，实验是在机器上以安全的方式进行的。
But if you put an inexperienced person and the machine is moving at a slow rate, so when the speed starts approaching zero, that inhibition takes place.
但如果你让一个没有经验的人让机器以缓慢的速度移动，那么当速度开始接近零时，就会发生抑制。
So pretty much the subject thinks the gig is up.
所以几乎主题认为演出已经结束了。
"I'm not going anywhere.
“我哪儿也不去。
That's it.
就是这样。
I'm done.
我完成了。
I'm just giving up because I failed." But training with isometrics allows you to develop this kind of a neural drive endurance that you need to grind through safely through a heavy attempt.
我只是因为失败而放弃。”但是等距训练可以让你培养这种神经驱动耐力，你需要通过艰苦的尝试来安全地磨练它。
So very, very powerful.
非常非常强大。
How would you incorporate isometrics into it?
你会如何将等轴测图融入其中？
So you can do this as a part of your warmup.
因此，您可以将其作为热身的一部分。
You can also do paused reps.
您也可以做暂停代表。
They're fantastic.
他们太棒了。
It's when you combine eccentric, concentric, and isometric contraction all in one.
就是将偏心收缩、向心收缩和等长收缩结合在一起的时候。
So perfect example for the squat, you lower to parallel, and you stay tight, and you stay there for three to five seconds, and then you explode upward.
这是深蹲的完美例子，你降低到平行，保持紧张，保持三到五秒钟，然后向上爆发。
So that's a great way to train.
所以这是一个很好的训练方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and thank our sponsor, AG1.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。
AG1 is an all-in-one vitamin mineral probiotic drink with adaptogens.
AG1 是一种含有适应原的一体化维生素矿物质益生菌饮料。
I've been taking AG1 daily since 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring this podcast.
自 2012 年以来，我每天都服用 AG1，所以我很高兴他们赞助这个播客。
The reason I started taking AG1 and the reason I still take AG1 is because it is the highest quality and most complete foundational nutritional supplement.
我开始服用AG1以及我仍然服用AG1的原因是因为它是最高品质和最完整的基础营养补充剂。
What that means is that AG1 ensures that you're getting all the necessary vitamins, minerals, and other micronutrients to form a strong foundation for your daily health.
这意味着 AG1 可确保您获得所有必需的维生素、矿物质和其他微量营养素，为您的日常健康奠定坚实的基础。
AG1 also has probiotics and prebiotics that support a healthy gut microbiome.
AG1 还含有支持健康肠道微生物群的益生菌和益生元。
Your gut microbiome consists of trillions of microorganisms that line your digestive tract and impact things such as your immune system status, your metabolic health, your hormone health, and much more.
您的肠道微生物组由数万亿微生物组成，这些微生物排列在您的消化道中，并影响您的免疫系统状态、代谢健康、激素健康等。
So I've consistently found that when I take AG1 daily, my digestion is improved, my immune system is more robust, and my mood and mental focus are at their best.
因此，我一直发现，当我每天服用 AG1 时，我的消化能力得到改善，我的免疫系统更加强大，我的情绪和精神集中度也处于最佳状态。
In fact, if I could take just one supplement, that supplement would be AG1.
事实上，如果我只能服用一种补充剂，那么该补充剂就是 AG1。
If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 申请特别优惠。
They'll give you five free travel packs plus a year's supply of vitamin D3 K2 with your order of AG1.
您订购 AG1 时，他们将赠送您五个免费旅行包以及一年的维生素 D3 K2。
Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim this special offer.
请再次访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 领取此特别优惠。
I'd like to talk about neural drive.
我想谈谈神经驱动。
I attribute you with popularizing, maybe you invented it, but certainly popularizing the term "greasing the groove" in one of your books.
我把它归功于你的普及，也许你发明了它，但肯定是在你的一本书中普及了“润滑凹槽”这个术语。
And by the way, we provide links to Pavel's books in the show note captions.
顺便说一句，我们在节目注释标题中提供了帕维尔书籍的链接。
I'm a collector of your books.
我是你的书的收藏家。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love them.
我爱他们。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some of them are getting to be collector's items that are a little bit harder to find, but you'll have to compete with me on eBay.
其中一些将成为收藏品，有点难找到，但你必须在 eBay 上与我竞争。
But some of them can be found elsewhere, and we'll provide links to those.
但其中一些可以在其他地方找到，我们将提供这些链接。
But this notion of greasing the groove completely changed my conceptualization of strength training.
但这种润滑凹槽的概念完全改变了我对力量训练的概念。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because I was weaned more or less trying to run cross-country during the cross-country season.
因为在越野赛季期间我或多或少尝试过越野跑。
Only ran it once, but I greatly enjoyed it and continued that sort of training, or trying to put on strength and size.
只跑过一次，但我非常喜欢它并继续进行这种训练，或者尝试增加力量和尺寸。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Kind of a numb skull, young male approach to things, but-
有点麻木的头脑，年轻男性的处事方式，但是——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
That's what we do at that age
这就是我们在那个年纪所做的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it served me reasonably well.
它对我来说相当好。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Sure, yeah.
当然，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm grateful that I included both.
我很感激我把两者都包括在内。
However, I was so tuned to this notion of training a body part, creating an adaptation, then waiting for the adaptation to occur, and then training the body part again.
然而，我非常喜欢这样的概念：训练身体部位，创造适应，然后等待适应发生，然后再次训练身体部位。
The arguments are all over the internet, two times a week, three times a week.
网上到处都是争论，一周两次，一周三次。
And then I came across this concept of greasing the groove.
然后我想到了润滑凹槽的概念。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which, as a neuroscientist, felt so intuitively correct and turns out to be correct.
作为一名神经科学家，直觉上感觉这是正确的，结果也是正确的。
You'll explain what it is, but the idea that more frequent training or practicing of a movement opens up a tremendous number of opportunities for development of strength, of size hypertrophy if one wants, and I would say just generally more flexibility over one's total fitness program.
你会解释它是什么，但是更频繁地训练或练习某项运动的想法为发展力量、体型肥大（如果一个人愿意的话）提供了大量的机会，而且我想说的是，一般来说，一个人的整体健身计划更具灵活性。
Once one understands-
一旦明白——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
this concept, you no longer look at this split or that split or this many reps or that many reps or this volume or that volume.
这个概念，你不再看这个分组或那个分组或这么多代表或那么多代表或这个卷或那个卷。
All that is important, but you can start to think about it through the lens of the nervous system.
所有这些都很重要，但您可以开始通过神经系统的视角来思考它。
And to me, it was like water in a desert to finally encounter something that brought together all these different concepts.
对我来说，就像沙漠中的水最终遇到了汇集所有这些不同概念的东西一样。
So could you please explain for people what greasing the groove is?
那么您能给大家解释一下什么是凹槽润滑吗？
And then I think the implications of it will become obvious, but we'll also spell out what some of those are.
然后我认为它的含义将会变得显而易见，但我们也会阐明其中的一些含义。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Andrew, please interrupt me because this might get really long, so please interrupt me at any time.
安德鲁，请打断我，因为这可能会很长，所以请随时打断我。
So first I'll talk about the neural component, then we're going to talk about the frequency and the morphological adaptation, structural adaptations as it leads.
首先，我将讨论神经组件，然后我们将讨论频率和形态适应、结构适应。
So ladies and gentlemen, grease the groove, we are talking about...
所以女士们先生们，请润滑一下，我们正在谈论......
Let's use an analogy.
让我们打个比方。
Let's imagine that you are a bow hunter, and you work in your garage.
让我们想象一下，您是一名弓箭猎人，在车库里工作。
And then you walk out of your garage and you shoot an arrow, then you just go back to going about your business, just working in your garage.
然后你走出车库，射一支箭，然后你就回去做你的事，只是在你的车库里工作。
Or let's say you're a kid who practices martial arts, and on every break between classes, you just go in the corner and you practice your kata.
或者假设你是一个练习武术的孩子，每次课间休息时，你就到角落里练习你的型。
This is the best way to practice your skill, in small portions in a spaced-out manner.
这是练习技能的最佳方式，以间隔的方式进行小部分练习。
What's really fascinating is traditional education and traditional strength training is based on the cramming model.
真正令人着迷的是传统教育和传统力量训练是基于临时抱佛脚的模式。
So remember cramming for an exam.
所以记住考试时要死记硬背。
So you're studying at night, and you somehow squeak by and you pass it.
所以你在晚上学习，不知怎的，你就吱吱地过去了，然后你就过去了。
Okay, great.
好的，太好了。
And then a couple of days later, you happily forget everything.
几天后，你高兴地忘记了一切。
So in contrast, let's say you're studying a foreign language.
相比之下，假设你正在学习一门外语。
You write words on cards and at every opportunity, you're standing in line in the bank.
你在卡片上写字，一有机会就在银行排队。
So the lesser mortals are fooling around on their phones.
所以小凡人都在玩手机。
You're just going through your deck like, "Oh, can I translate this word?" And go put it back in the deck, flip it over.
你只是在浏览你的牌组，就像，“哦，我可以翻译这个词吗？”然后把它放回甲板上，翻转过来。
Then next time you are in some other place, you do this again.
然后下次当你在其他地方时，你会再次这样做。
So this is an example of spaced practice versus the traditional massed practice.
这是间隔练习与传统集中练习的一个例子。
And the evidence of the superiority of spaced practice is just overwhelming.
间隔练习的优越性的证据是压倒性的。
It goes back to the 19th century, and there is at least more than 1,000 papers published on that.
它可以追溯到 19 世纪，至少有 1000 多篇相关论文发表。
And still, very few people do that, which is really sad.
然而，很少有人这样做，这实在是令人悲哀。
And strength is a skill.
而力量是一种技能。
So two interesting things happened in the '50s.
五十年代发生了两件有趣的事情。
One is Thomas Rasch, he was an American exercise physiologist.
其中之一是托马斯·拉什（Thomas Rasch），他是一位美国运动生理学家。
He proposed that strength adaptation was largely skill.
他提出力量适应主要是技巧。
And he looked at pretty much the adaptations.
他看了很多改编作品。
He noticed that there's no correlation between the muscle growth and strength.
他注意到肌肉生长和力量之间没有相关性。
Then at the same time, a Soviet scientist, Stepanov was his last name, he was measuring the electrical activity in the muscles of weightlifters who were pressing overhead.
与此同时，一位名叫斯捷潘诺夫（Stepanov）的苏联科学家正在测量举重运动员过头举重时肌肉的电活动。
And back then, the press was one of the competition events.
当时，新闻发布会是竞争项目之一。
And what he found is as the athletes got stronger after some months, the EMGs started dropping off when they're lifting the same weights.
他发现，几个月后，随着运动员变得更强壮，当他们举起相同的重量时，肌电图开始下降。
So pretty much he found out that the nervous system activity became more economical.
所以他几乎发现神经系统活动变得更加经济。
They were able to try less hard, yet still lift the same weights.
他们能够减少努力，但仍然举起相同的重量。
Or pretty much they could try harder and lift even heavier weights.
或者他们可以更加努力地举起更重的重量。
And hypertrophy could not explain that because in the '50s, the Soviets were very anti-hypertrophy.
而肥大无法解释这一点，因为在20世纪50年代，苏联人非常反对肥大。
They were just doing doubles, triples, singles, pretty much.
他们只是打双打、三打、单打，差不多。
So if we look at what's going on, it's the Hebbian mechanisms.
因此，如果我们看看正在发生的事情，就会发现这是赫布机制。
So pretty much every time that you activate a particular connection, synaptic connection between the neurons, that connection becomes stronger.
因此，几乎每次激活神经元之间的特定连接（即突触连接）时，这种连接就会变得更强。
So if you do it over and over and over.
所以如果你一遍又一遍地这样做。
So the grease to groove as the analogy is that command that's coming in from your brain to your muscles, that's the groove.
因此，油脂与凹槽的类比是从大脑到肌肉的命令，这就是凹槽。
That's that pathway.
这就是那条路。
And the more you use it, pretty much the more grease it becomes.
而且你用得越多，它就会变得越多。
So it becomes a superconductor.
所以它就变成了超导体。
So in the future, you don't have to try as hard to lift the same amount of weight, or you can try the same amount and you can lift harder.
所以以后你不必那么努力举起同样的重量，或者你可以尝试同样的重量，你可以举得更努力。
So we haven't even addressed the neural drive yet.
所以我们还没有解决神经驱动的问题。
We just pretty much made the motor neurons more responsive to it.
我们只是让运动神经元对它更加敏感。
And it's a very easy and very simple way to train.
这是一种非常简单的训练方法。
And strength comes very easily and very, very unexpectedly.
而力量来得非常容易，而且非常非常出乎意料。
To make sure that it does happen, you have to address the issue of specificity.
为了确保它确实发生，您必须解决特异性问题。
So specificity pretty much means without getting too much into the weeds.
因此，特异性几乎意味着不会陷入太多杂草。
To get stronger, first of all, you need to lift weights that are heavy enough.
为了变得更强，首先，你需要举起足够重的重量。
And if you're looking about percentages of one-rep max, we're looking at 75 to 85, typically.
如果您要查看最多 1 次重复的百分比，我们通常会查看 75 到 85 次。
If you go too light, you don't make the impression on your nervous system, and it's just not specific enough.
如果你做得太轻，你的神经系统就不会留下印象，而且不够具体。
If you go too heavy, very quickly, you're just going to burn yourself out.
如果你动作太重、太快，你就会精疲力竭。
And so pretty much it's a weight that's heavy enough to respect and light enough not to fear.
因此，它的重量几乎足够重，足以令人尊敬，又足够轻，足以让人不感到恐惧。
And the second of all, and this is very surprising, is you only do about half or fewer reps than you possibly could do.
第二，这是非常令人惊讶的，你只做了你可能做的一半或更少的次数。
So, for example, let's say that you're lifting 80% of your one-rep max.
举例来说，假设您举起了单次最大重量的 80%。
And let's say that you're able to do eight reps maximum with it.
假设您最多可以用它重复八次。
We're just fairly calm.
我们只是相当平静。
Well, you're only going to do about three to four reps per set, and that's it.
好吧，每组你只需要做三到四次，仅此而已。
And the gym bros at this point go crazy.
健身房里的兄弟们此时都疯了。
Like, "Where's the intensity?" Well, intensity in strength training is just how heavy the weight is.
比如，“强度在哪里？”嗯，力量训练的强度就是重量的大小。
It has nothing to do with the effort.
这与努力程度无关。
And it's been proven over and over that that's much more important than how hard you're exerting yourself.
事实已经一再证明，这比你自己的努力程度要重要得多。
There are times for that.
有时会这样。
There are absolutely times for that.
绝对有这样的时候。
But if the weight is heavy enough, and if you do half the repetitions that you possibly could do, you're going to get stronger.
但如果重量足够重，并且你做了你能做的一半的重复次数，你就会变得更强壮。
It's very safe, and you're not going to burn out psychologically, and it's also very easy on your body.
它非常安全，你不会在心理上精疲力竭，而且对你的身体也很轻松。
So also that builds muscle as well, purely because you're able to do a very high volume of work.
这也能增强肌肉，纯粹是因为你能够做大量的工作。
I'm not able to explain the mechanism, why it builds muscle.
我无法解释其机制，以及为什么它会增强肌肉。
But as the Soviets found out in weightlifting research, there's a correlation between the volume and, Robert Roman, between the volume and the hypertrophy.
但正如苏联人在举重研究中发现的那样，训练量和肌肉肥大之间存在相关性，罗伯特·罗曼。
Everything else being equal, you're going to get bigger.
在其他条件相同的情况下，你会变得更大。
So almost every day, you're doing the sets of three, four reps, maybe even five, and they start adding up.
所以几乎每天，你都会做三组、四次，甚至五次，然后它们就会开始累加。
And before you know it, you're stronger, and at the same time, you have developed muscle.
在你意识到之前，你变得更强壮，同时你的肌肉也发达了。
So to summarize the grease the groove, you're trying to train moderately heavy as often as possible while staying as fresh as possible.
因此，总结一下润滑凹槽，你要尝试尽可能频繁地进行中等重量的训练，同时尽可能保持新鲜感。
And if you decide to do it in the gym, a very simple protocol would be a set every 10 minutes.
如果您决定在健身房锻炼，一个非常简单的方案就是每 10 分钟一组。
It sounds really bizarre.
听起来确实很奇怪。
Why would you rest for so long?
为什么要休息这么久？
This apparently has to do with initial memory consolidation.
这显然与初始记忆巩固有关。
There is so much that's still unknown.
还有很多事情仍然未知。
So we do know the grease the groove works great, but we speculate that some of it has to do with some of the same phenomena related to learning in other fields.
所以我们确实知道凹槽的润滑脂效果很好，但我们推测其中一些与其他领域的学习相关的一些相同现象有关。
So if you're doing something over and over, like you're saying, "Two plus two is four.
因此，如果你一遍又一遍地做某件事，就像你说的那样，“二加二等于四。
Two plus two is four," you're just using your short-term memory.
二加二等于四”，你只是在使用你的短期记忆。
You're not memorizing anything.
你什么也没记住。
But if you say, "Two plus two is four," you go get a coffee, you come back, and you try, "Two plus two, four." So there's that desirable difficulty that you have in there, and you have to process that instead of just go through the groove.
但如果你说，“二加二等于四”，你去喝杯咖啡，回来后尝试说“二加二，四”。因此，你遇到了令人想要的困难，你必须处理它，而不是只是墨守成规。
That apparently helps this adaptation.
这显然有助于这种适应。
So rest for at least 10 minutes.
所以至少休息10分钟。
Do sets of about the repetitions of half of what you're possibly able to do.
重复做几组你能做的事情的一半左右。
And listen to your body.
并倾听你的身体。
Typically, train two to three days in a row and then take a day off, but listen to your body.
通常，连续训练两到三天，然后休息一天，但要听从你的身体的声音。
Incidentally, this grease the groove is the topic of my next book.
顺便说一句，这种润滑凹槽是我下一本书的主题。
I have completed it.
我已经完成了。
It's not published yet.
它还没有发布。
If you look at-- I can't pronounce the Hungarian professor's last name.
如果你看——我无法念出匈牙利教授的姓氏。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Csíkszentmihályi.
Csíkszentmihályi。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
I appreciate that.
我很欣赏这一点。
So he's talking about that perfect challenge, perfect practice lies in that channel between boredom and anxiety.
所以他说的是完美的挑战，完美的练习在于无聊和焦虑之间的通道。
So if you put yourself in that channel, and if you keep lifting these moderately heavy weights with a moderate effort over and over and over, you're going to get stronger.
因此，如果你把自己置于这个渠道，并且不断地以适度的努力举起这些中等重量的重量，你就会变得更强壮。
That's one of the many ways to get stronger.
这是变得更强的众多方法之一。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are you doing anything in the rest periods between these 10 minutes?
在这 10 分钟之间的休息时间里你有做任何事情吗？
So is it, let's say, bench press, wait 10 minutes till you bench press again, but in the meantime, you're doing Zercher squat five minutes after the first bench press?
比如说，卧推，等 10 分钟再做一次卧推，但与此同时，你在第一次卧推后五分钟做 Zercher 深蹲？
Are you staggered?
你愣住了吗？
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
That's one of the ways to do that.
这是做到这一点的方法之一。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
You can do up to three exercises at the same time.
您最多可以同时进行三个练习。
So let's say, I like Zercher squat and the bench press and maybe a third thing, but I'd say those two are enough.
这么说吧，我喜欢 Zercher 深蹲和卧推，也许还有第三件事，但我想说这两个就足够了。
And another option is you can do that.
另一种选择是你可以这样做。
You can incorporate this into-- If you would do only one exercise, you can squeeze it into your lifestyle or your athletic practice.
您可以将其纳入——如果您只做一项锻炼，您可以将其融入您的生活方式或运动练习中。
So for example, let's say you're teaching a track practice or martial arts class.
举例来说，假设您正在教授田径练习或武术课程。
And every 10 minutes on the clock, you just have the class drop and do, let's say, three one-arm push-ups, okay?
每隔 10 分钟，你就下课并做三个单臂俯卧撑，好吗？
And then get back to the class.
然后再回到班级。
So there's no interference whatsoever.
所以没有任何干扰。
In fact, it's better than no interference.
事实上，有干扰比没有干扰要好。
Back in the '60s, Soviets found out something called the strength after effect.
早在六十年代，苏联人就发现了一种叫做“后效效应”的东西。
So if you do strength work that's non-exhausting in nature and that's not novel to you, it has a tonic effect just for anything that you can do with your brain or with your body, anything.
因此，如果你做的力量训练本质上不会让人筋疲力尽，而且对你来说并不新鲜，那么它对你可以用你的大脑或你的身体做的任何事情都有补益作用。
So what they would even do, some coaches do, this is called strength warm-up.
所以他们甚至会做一些教练会做的事情，这就是所谓的力量热身。
They would warm up as usual for a track class, let's say, track practice.
他们会像往常一样为田径课热身，比如说田径练习。
Then they would do, let's say, three sets of three of something like with 80% max, which is not much.
然后他们会做三组，每组三组，最多 80%，这并不算多。
And they start their practice.
他们开始练习。
Then the coach noticed that the athletes are starting to droop a little.
然后教练注意到运动员们开始有些下垂了。
He'll repeat that.
他会重复一遍。
He might repeat that up to three times.
他可能会重复这句话最多三遍。
So what you have is by having this short, very small dose, like a nano practice of strength, you rejuvenate yourself and your productivity increases so much.
因此，通过这种短时间、非常小的剂量，就像纳米力量练习一样，你可以使自己恢复活力，并且你的生产力会大大提高。
So whether you want to just do the strength exercise, several of them in that one-hour period, or whether you want to combine that with writing a great American novel, that's your business.
因此，无论您只想进行力量练习（在一小时内进行几次），还是想将其与写一部伟大的美国小说结合起来，那都是您的事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I suppose if someone has access to the appropriate equipment at home, you could incorporate grease the groove into your entire day.
我想如果有人在家中可以使用适当的设备，您就可以将润滑脂融入到您的一整天中。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
That's ideal.
那是理想的。
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
And obviously it's difficult with some equipment, but what you could do, you could use the heavy-duty grippers.
显然，对于某些设备来说这很困难，但你可以做的是，你可以使用重型夹具。
You could do one-arm push-ups.
你可以做单臂俯卧撑。
You could keep a kettlebell under your desk and press it at every opportunity.
你可以在桌子下面放一个壶铃，一有机会就按下它。
And again, the idea is really just practice.
再说一遍，这个想法实际上只是实践。
You're just trying to hit a perfect trap.
你只是想击中一个完美的陷阱。
And notice that if you have some issues, if you're a warm-up dependent person for orthopedic issues, I'm talking about warm up in the very much in the body, not the mind in this particular case, then it might not be appropriate for you.
请注意，如果您有一些问题，如果您是骨科问题的热身依赖者，我说的是身体的热身，而不是在这种特殊情况下的头脑，那么它可能不适合您。
Although, with 10-minute rest it might still be okay.
不过，休息10分钟可能还是没问题的。
But practicing a skill without the warm-up, that means rehearsal, is very powerful for improving that skill.
但是，在没有热身的情况下练习一项技能，即排练，对于提高该技能非常有效。
People think they automatically equate performance with improvement, with learning, but it's not so.
人们认为他们自然而然地将绩效等同于进步、学习，但事实并非如此。
Not at all.
一点也不。
When you're doing something that's just out of the blue, it's the way a sniper would take a cold shot.
当你做出出乎意料的事情时，狙击手就会采取冷枪射击的方式。
That's so much harder because you have to have produced that solution.
这要困难得多，因为你必须提出这个解决方案。
Or maybe an example that's closer to most viewers, golf.
或者也许是一个更接近大多数观众的例子，高尔夫。
You go to the driving range.
你去练习场。
You start hitting it.
你开始击打它。
And like, wow, you're amazing.
就像，哇，你太棒了。
You just get yourself fine-tuned.
你只要对自己进行微调即可。
You hit, you're perfect.
你打了，你就完美了。
Then you go and you play the game and you cannot replicate that.
然后你就去玩游戏，但你无法复制它。
Because suddenly, different club, different topography, everything's different.
因为突然之间，不同的俱乐部，不同的地形，一切都不同了。
And you didn't have the luxury of that tuning yourself up right there.
而且你没有机会在那里调整自己。
So it doesn't feel like you're stronger, but you are going to get much stronger.
所以你不会感觉自己变强了，但你会变得更强大。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've been eager to share with you some recent findings that are not my own, but that I think you might be curious about and that I think most people hopefully will be curious about as well.
我一直渴望与您分享一些最近的发现，这些发现不是我自己的，但我认为您可能会对此感到好奇，并且我认为大多数人也会对此感到好奇。
It's not greasing the groove specifically, but It provides an at least partial mechanistic understanding of how particular types of physical movement with this high motor neuron and attentional engagement can generate high levels of alertness that can be devoted to, as you say, writing the great American novel, perhaps.
它并不是特别地润滑凹槽，但它至少提供了部分机械性的理解，即特定类型的身体运动与这种高运动神经元和注意力投入如何能够产生高度的警觉性，正如你所说，也许可以致力于写伟大的美国小说。
There's a guy at the University of Pittsburgh named Peter Strick, who for the first time started to map the connections between the adrenals and the brain, and he was able to do this using some really cool technology.
匹兹堡大学有一个名叫彼得·斯特里克（Peter Strick）的人，他第一次开始绘制肾上腺和大脑之间的连接图，并且他能够使用一些非常酷的技术来做到这一点。
The basic takeaway is the following.
基本要点如下。
Adrenaline released from the adrenals, as some of the listeners may know, doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier, but it turns out it binds to receptors on the vagus, which then stimulates noradrenaline in the brain and provides this increase in alertness.
正如一些听众可能知道的那样，从肾上腺释放的肾上腺素不会穿过血脑屏障，但事实证明它会与迷走神经上的受体结合，然后刺激大脑中的去甲肾上腺素并提高警觉性。
So then the question is: how do you get your adrenals engaged?
那么问题是：如何让你的肾上腺参与进来？
We can sit here and we can do a staring competition, which I'll lose for certain.
我们可以坐在这里，我们可以进行一场凝视比赛，我肯定会输。
But there are all sorts of psychological tools.
但有各种各样的心理工具。
We get caffeine, et cetera.
我们得到咖啡因等等。
There are all sorts of ways.
有各种各样的方法。
Cold water.
冷水。
But it turns out what Peter found was that there are particular locations in the motor cortex that send basically a two-synapse connection, disynaptic connection, directly to the adrenals.
但事实证明，彼得发现运动皮层中的某些特定位置基本上将两个突触连接（即双突触连接）直接直接发送到肾上腺。
And the areas of motor cortex that engage the adrenals cause them to release adrenaline.
运动皮层与肾上腺接触的区域导致它们释放肾上腺素。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But just by sheer movement of particular muscle groups are the core, as you were talking about before, like bracing the core, causes the release of adrenaline, which then, via the vagus, causes the brain stem area to release noradrenaline, wake up the whole brain, essentially, increase learning and performance in anything.
但仅仅通过特定肌肉群的纯粹运动就是核心，正如你之前所说的，比如支撑核心，会导致肾上腺素的释放，然后，肾上腺素通过迷走神经，导致脑干区域释放去甲肾上腺素，唤醒整个大脑，本质上，提高学习和任何事情的表现。
And as well, the stronger and stronger activation of the motor neurons, deliberate activation of the motor neurons, seems to engage adrenaline release.
而且，运动神经元的激活越来越强，有意激活运动神经元，似乎会促进肾上腺素的释放。
Now, to me, this was a wonderful way of trying to persuade people that they have internal control over this thing that we call motivation.
现在，对我来说，这是一种试图说服人们相信他们对我们称之为动机的东西有内部控制力的绝妙方式。
That movement itself can increase adrenaline, which can increase the tendency to want to move.
这种运动本身可以增加肾上腺素，从而增加想要运动的倾向。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
As long as, again, you don't want to have too much adrenaline either.
再说一次，只要你不想有太多的肾上腺素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
And I'd like to talk about that.
我想谈谈这个。
But I think I and so many other people were kind of raised and conditioned, at least in this country, to think, "Oh, if I want to increase my level of motivation, I need to like," I don't know, "watch an inspiring video." That could be great.
但我认为我和其他很多人至少在这个国家从小就被教育和习惯了思考，“哦，如果我想提高我的动力水平，我需要喜欢，”我不知道，“观看一部鼓舞人心的视频。”那可能很棒。
Or I can drink caffeine or an energy drink.
或者我可以喝咖啡因或能量饮料。
And certainly, that will do it.
当然，这样就可以了。
But to me, the discovery that particular movements and particular muscles being engaged in activity itself changes the neurochemical milieu.
但对我来说，特定运动和特定肌肉参与活动的发现本身就改变了神经化学环境。
Of course it had to be, right?
当然必须如此，对吧？
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a big duh.
这是一个大问题。
But I think that, anyway, I was excited to share with you these data.
但我认为，无论如何，我很高兴与大家分享这些数据。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Well, thank you.
嗯，谢谢。
That is new to me.
这对我来说是新的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I didn't discover them.
我没有发现他们。
So I read "The Naked Warrior." I was clothed when I read it.
于是我读了《裸体战士》。当我读到它的时候，我已经穿上衣服了。
But it's a wonderful book because-
但这是一本很棒的书，因为——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Thank you
谢谢你
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it talks about body weight-only exercises and this concept of, for instance, trying to crush one's fist, making a really strong fist on the other side, and how that will increase your gripping ability on the other side, this kind of thing.
它谈到了仅靠体重的练习和这个概念，例如，试图压碎自己的拳头，在另一侧握紧拳头，以及如何增加另一侧的抓握能力，诸如此类的事情。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Yes.
是的。
As you know with your background in neuroscience, obviously, there are so many neurological phenomena, like if you can think of muscle software-
正如你在神经科学方面的背景所知道的，显然，有很多神经学现象，就像你能想到肌肉软件一样——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
...
...
that we have access to, that if we become conscious about accessing that, we can be so much stronger.
我们可以利用它，如果我们有意识地利用它，我们就能变得更强大。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
So when you talk about doing a set of three or four repetitions-
所以当你谈论做一组三到四次重复时——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or two to three repetitions at about 85% or 80% of one-rep max, waiting 10 minutes, and in the intervening 10 minutes, going and trying to learn something important, physical or cognitive, this makes perfect sense to me because of the relationship of adrenaline, but also the way that your entire nervous system is changed-
或者以最多一次重复次数的 85% 或 80% 的速度重复两到三次，等待 10 分钟，然后在中间的 10 分钟内尝试学习一些重要的、身体的或认知的东西，这对我来说非常有意义，因为肾上腺素的关系，而且你的整个神经系统的改变方式 -
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the intervening period.
在此期间。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
And plus, you have the contextual interference.
另外，你还有语境干扰。
So, one of the greasy groove is not something that I invented.
所以，油腻的凹槽之一并不是我发明的。
It's something that I was able to codify and explain and possibly refine, but it's been around since the day of Ecclesiastes, and specifically in strength training, Paul Anderson.
这是我能够编纂和解释并可能完善的东西，但它从传道书时代就已经存在，特别是在力量训练领域，保罗·安德森。
Paul Anderson, one of the greatest weightlifters of all time.
保罗·安德森，有史以来最伟大的举重运动员之一。
He was a big favorite of the Soviet public.
他深受苏联公众的喜爱。
Very tough group to impress, but they called him the wonder of nature.
很难给这群人留下深刻的印象，但他们称他为大自然的奇迹。
He was so strong.
他是如此坚强。
And Paul Anderson would do a set of squats, then he would wander around, drink some milk, half an hour later, do a set of presses, now go do this again.
保罗·安德森会做一组深蹲，然后他会四处走动，喝一些牛奶，半小时后，做一组推举，现在再做一次。
And so he reinvent-- I shouldn't say reinvent.
所以他重新发明了——我不应该说重新发明。
No, he invented without knowing neurons from nylon many of the training concepts that are just cutting-edge today.
不，他在不了解尼龙神经元的情况下发明了许多当今最前沿的训练概念。
And again, so this concept of contextual interference, remember we talked earlier how if it's harder for you to produce a solution, if you're trying harder to remember two plus two is four or how to throw the ball, then you're going to learn more, as opposed to if somebody just hands it, "Oh, two plus two is four." So Paul Anderson had both the spacing, time came, so the groove has been forgotten in the sands of time, and the contextual interference, he did another exercise that erased whatever previous groove right there.
再说一遍，上下文干扰的概念，请记住我们之前讨论过，如果你更难找到解决方案，如果你更努力地记住二加二等于四或如何扔球，那么你就会学到更多，而不是如果有人只是递给你，“哦，二加二等于四。”所以保罗·安德森既有间隔，时间到了，所以凹槽已经被遗忘在时间的沙子里，还有上下文干扰，他做了另一项练习，抹掉了之前的凹槽。
And it's very fascinating how looking at some of these old-timers and just how genius some of them were.
看看这些老前辈以及他们中的一些人是多么的天才，真是令人着迷。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah, the unconscious genius aspect of it is so cool.
是的，它的无意识天才方面非常酷。
And of course, I don't want to be disparaging of common gym programs these days, but I do feel like the way that most people train-
当然，我不想贬低现在常见的健身项目，但我确实觉得大多数人的训练方式都是这样的——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
I'll do that.
我会这么做的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, you'll do that.
是的，你会这么做的。
Yeah, the way that most people train in terms of thinking, "Okay, I'm going to hit the gym three, four times a week," or "I'm going to train chest one day and chest and biceps," while that has some value, I feel like for creating all-around strength and hypertrophy, there's just such an incredible treasure trove of other things that you're-
是的，大多数人训练的方式都是这样想的，“好吧，我每周去健身房三四次”，或者“我有一天要训练胸部，胸部和二头肌”，虽然这有一定的价值，但我觉得对于创造全面的力量和肥大来说，还有如此令人难以置信的其他东西的宝库，你-
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
sharing with us today that are just not discussed as much because people don't take the lens of the nervous system component.
今天与我们分享的内容只是没有被过多讨论，因为人们不考虑神经系统组件的镜头。
One thing that I'd love to ask about the nervous system in terms of training adaptation and recovery is that I was weaned somewhat under the thought patterns of Mike Mentzer.
关于神经系统在训练适应和恢复方面的问题，我想问的一件事是，我在迈克·门泽尔的思维模式下有所戒掉。
This was in the Dorian Yates era, and I knew Mike a little bit.
那是在多里安·耶茨时代，我对迈克有一点了解。
I paid for a consult with him over the phone.
我通过电话咨询了他，并支付了费用。
We never met in person.
我们从未见过面。
So that had my mother asking, "Why is this grown man calling our home?" In the old days, you had to wire somebody money.
所以我妈妈问：“为什么这个成年人给我们家打电话？”在过去，你必须给某人汇钱。
But it was so worthwhile because Mike taught me that the goal of training was to induce an adaptation.
但这是非常值得的，因为迈克告诉我，训练的目标是诱导适应。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Anything additional was not necessary, and in his case, he felt was counterproductive.
任何额外的东西都没有必要，对他来说，他觉得会适得其反。
Very infrequent training, et cetera, and it worked tremendously well to take me from 150 pounds to 210 pounds, which I had no need to do.
很少进行训练等等，但它非常有效地将我的体重从 150 磅减到了 210 磅，而我没有必要这样做。
But-
但是——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
my body just reacted like crazy.
我的身体做出了疯狂的反应。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But then again, I was 16, 17, and 18 years old in that time.
但话又说回来，那时我16岁、17岁、18岁。
Probably could've done any number of different things and experienced similar results.
也许可以做许多不同的事情并经历类似的结果。
Who knows?
谁知道？
But the concept, of course, is that you train to induce an adaptation, then you rest, and then you allow the adaptation to serve the moving higher poundages in good form, this sort of thing.
但当然，这个概念是你训练以引发适应，然后你休息，然后你允许适应以良好的形式服务于移动更高的体重，诸如此类。
The problem, however, is that, and Mentzer highlighted this, is that training of any kind, running, lifting, et cetera, taxes both the nervous system as a whole and the muscles locally and the connective tissue.
然而，问题在于，正如门泽尔强调的那样，任何类型的训练，跑步、举重等等，都会对整个神经系统、局部肌肉和结缔组织造成负担。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How should we think about training and recovery?
我们应该如何看待训练和恢复？
So when you describe Grease the Groove, I could imagine if I had a home setup or I'm going to the gym, I could maybe do four or five rounds of this training, but at some point-
所以当你描述“Grease the Groove”时，我可以想象如果我有一个家庭设置或者我要去健身房，我也许可以进行四到五轮这样的训练，但在某些时候-
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it becomes counterproductive.
它会适得其反。
So-
所以——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Wow, a lot of great questions.
哇，有很多很好的问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I'm just trying to think about how to schedule this sort of thing, keeping in mind that the nervous system fatigues as a whole, and then there's also the issue of local muscle fatigue or even the propensity for injury if you just overdo it.
我只是想考虑如何安排这类事情，记住神经系统作为一个整体会疲劳，然后还有局部肌肉疲劳的问题，甚至如果你做得过度的话，可能会受伤。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
So if we could just riff on this for a little bit.
所以我们可以简单地讨论一下这个问题吗？
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
If you don't mind, Andrew, I'll break it up-
如果你不介意的话，安德鲁，我就分手-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Please
请
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
...
...
because there are a lot of great questions right there.
因为那里有很多很好的问题。
So one, as you mentioned, there are different ways of training.
因此，正如您提到的，训练有不同的方式。
And again, the Grease the Groove load parameters apart from the long rests are very much based on Soviet weightlifting system, and I'd like to talk a little bit about that later.
再说一遍，除了长休息之外，Grease the Groove 负载参数很大程度上基于苏联举重系统，我想稍后再谈一下。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Another system that is completely and radically different, and it ties very much to Mike Mentzer's training, for reasons that will become obvious, is the classic American powerlifting system from the '80s.
另一个完全不同的系统是 80 年代的经典美国举重系统，它与 Mike Mentzer 的训练密切相关，其原因将变得显而易见。
And when people argue about training methods, what they need to understand is there are many ways to get the job done.
当人们争论培训方法时，他们需要明白的是，有很多方法可以完成工作。
Atkovio, his research in Estonia found because there's so many different combinations of stimuli and the different adaptations that result, you can arrive to similar outcomes in a lot of different ways.
阿特科维奥在爱沙尼亚进行的研究发现，由于刺激的多种不同组合以及由此产生的不同适应，你可以通过多种不同的方式达到类似的结果。
So to say this is right and this is wrong, you cannot sometimes do that.
所以说这个是对的，这个是错的，有时你不能这样做。
I can say most of things are wrong, but I can also say there is multiple right ways of training, and they can be radically different, and they're different because they rely on very different phenomena.
我可以说大多数事情都是错误的，但我也可以说有多种正确的训练方法，它们可以完全不同，它们不同是因为它们依赖于非常不同的现象。
So in this particular case, you're talking about recovery and frequency, which is, again, a great way to address it.
因此，在这种特殊情况下，您谈论的是恢复和频率，这又是解决这个问题的好方法。
I'm going to talk about two systems that are completely different and yet have that same pedigree that they have brought so many gold medals.
我将讨论两个完全不同的系统，但它们具有相同的血统，因此它们带来了如此多的金牌。
So one system is the Soviet weightlifting system, is again where athletes would train several times a day.
因此，一个系统是苏联举重系统，也是运动员每天训练几次的系统。
And Bulgarian system is a more extreme example of that, and every day.
保加利亚的制度就是一个更极端的例子，而且每天都是这样。
And the other extreme would be the American powerlifting system exemplified by Hugh Cassidy, Marty Gallagher, Ed Coan, Kirk Kowalski, so starting from the '70s through the '90s.
另一个极端是美国举重体系，以休·卡西迪、马蒂·加拉格尔、埃德·科恩、柯克·科瓦尔斯基为代表，从 70 年代到 90 年代。
And those were really glorious days for U.S. powerlifting.
对于美国举重来说，那真是辉煌的日子。
And in that system, they would pretty much do one or two heavy sets per lift once a week.
在这个系统中，他们几乎每周都会做一到两组大重量的举重动作。
So it's kind of a little bit like Mike Mentzer's work, kind of, but we'll address why.
所以这有点像 Mike Mentzer 的工作，但我们会解释原因。
So how can that be, and how can both systems work?
那么这怎么可能？这两个系统如何工作？
So you addressed the recovery.
所以你谈到了恢复。
There's a concept called heterochronicity, which hetero means different, chronicity refers to time.
有一个概念叫heterochronicity，hetero的意思是不同，chronicity指的是时间。
So the different systems in the body recover at different rates.
因此，体内不同的系统以不同的速度恢复。
And if you don't take that into account, then you're going to have some serious problems.
如果你不考虑到这一点，那么你将会遇到一些严重的问题。
So, if you look at the Soviet system with frequent training, they looked at, okay, we want to do frequent practice, which is exactly what we do.
所以，如果你看看苏联的频繁训练体系，他们会说，好吧，我们想要频繁练习，这正是我们所做的。
We don't want to beat the muscles up so much that they take some very long time to recover.
我们不想让肌肉过度疲劳，以致它们需要很长时间才能恢复。
Not too much eccentric stress, not too much acidosis, avoiding things like that.
不要有太多的偏激压力，不要有太多的酸中毒，避免类似的事情。
And they were able to adjust the loads in such a way, so let's say your weights are heavy, but not too heavy.
他们能够以这种方式调整负载，所以假设你的重量很重，但不是太重。
The reps don't go too high, so you're able to recover pretty much overnight.
重复次数不会太高，因此您几乎可以在一夜之间恢复。
And the benefit of that is it's been shown that if you fragment a given workload over more days and more sessions, you get better results.
这样做的好处是，事实证明，如果您将给定的工作负载分解为更多天和更多会话，您将获得更好的结果。
And your body is able, and your nervous system, endocrine system, your carcass, everything is able to handle much more if it's split into small doses.
你的身体有能力，你的神经系统、内分泌系统、你的身体，如果分成小剂量，一切都能够处理更多的东西。
So let's use an example of a meal.
让我们以一顿饭为例。
Let's say if you were trying to do an eating competition, how much you can eat in 24 hours.
假设您想参加一场饮食比赛，您可以在 24 小时内吃多少。
So it's not like those Coney Island, how many hot dogs you can eat in one sitting?
所以不像康尼岛那些，一口气能吃多少个热狗呢？
No. But you'd probably eat a lot more if you spread it throughout the day.
不会。但如果你把它分散到一天中，你可能会吃得更多。
And this is the same idea.
这也是同样的想法。
So it's like that parable from Nassim Taleb about the king that got anger in his son, and he says he's going to crush him with a big rock.
就像纳西姆·塔勒布（Nassim Taleb）的寓言一样，国王对他的儿子感到愤怒，他说他要用一块大石头压碎他。
And then he realized, "Oh, what did I do?
然后他意识到：“哦，我做了什么？
I don't want to kill this kid." But the king's word is king's word, right?
我不想杀这个孩子。”但国王的话就是国王的话，对吗？
So he ordered his peons to break up the rock into pebbles and then just dump these pebbles on the kid.
于是他命令手下的苦工把石头打碎成鹅卵石，然后把这些鹅卵石倒在孩子身上。
So that's the same idea.
所以这是同样的想法。
So fragmentation of the load always allows you to do more and do it safer.
因此，负载的碎片化总是能让您做得更多、更安全。
So something else is related to that.
所以还有其他事情与此相关。
In some training systems, some training systems rely on adaptations, let's say, for strength, that go in the muscle, that go beyond just the contractile proteins.
在一些训练系统中，一些训练系统依赖于肌肉的适应性，比如说力量，而不仅仅是收缩蛋白。
Just the part that create force.
只是产生力量的部分。
So, for example, the Soviet system, they also tried to increase the storage of creatine phosphate, which is the kind of immediate fuel for muscle contractions for this type of work.
因此，例如，苏联系统，他们还尝试增加磷酸肌酸的储存，磷酸肌酸是此类工作中肌肉收缩的直接燃料。
We're lifting heavy weights over and over.
我们一遍又一遍地举起重物。
And so by training sometimes easier You're able to keep stimulating that creatine phosphate adaptation, but still allowing muscles to recover.
因此，通过有时更轻松的训练，您可以继续刺激磷酸肌酸的适应，但仍然可以让肌肉恢复。
So there's kind of a dance, and it's fairly complex.
所以有一种舞蹈，而且相当复杂。
Then, on the other hand, the American system did something completely different.
然后，另一方面，美国的制度做了一些完全不同的事情。
And the explanations for what happens in the muscle within this American system, we didn't know for sure, but there's a hypothesis by a Russian specialist, Vadim Pratasenko, that seems quite credible.
对于美国系统中肌肉发生的情况的解释，我们不确定，但俄罗斯专家瓦迪姆·普拉塔森科（Vadim Pratasenko）的一个假设似乎相当可信。
So again, here's the system.
再说一遍，这是系统。
You train hard.
你训练很刻苦。
You do one hard set once a week, or two hard sets.
你每周做一次高强度组，或者每周做两组高强度组。
So the satellite cells that are immature cells in the muscle, they're sitting there waiting to jump in if you need to replenish the messed-up ones.
因此，卫星细胞是肌肉中未成熟的细胞，它们坐在那里等待着你需要补充那些混乱的细胞时加入进来。
In order for the satellite cells to get their job done, scientists try to figure out what sort of stimuli are required.
为了让卫星细胞完成它们的工作，科学家们试图找出需要什么样的刺激。
And a strong case can be made that a very particular damage to the microstructure of the muscle can provoke that stimulus.
有充分的证据表明，对肌肉微观结构的非常特殊的损伤可以引发这种刺激。
But that damage has to be very specific.
但这种损害必须非常具体。
If you beat up the muscle with a baseball bat, you're just going to get a whole lot of scar tissue and some satellite cells will just die and others will just become scarred.
如果你用棒球棒击打肌肉，你只会留下大量的疤痕组织，一些卫星细胞会死亡，而另一些卫星细胞会留下疤痕。
But if the cross bridges in the muscle, the cross bridges is that part that does create force in the muscle, if they do tear in a very specific way, it seems to do the job.
但如果肌肉中有横桥，那么横桥就是在肌肉中产生力量的部分，如果它们确实以一种非常特定的方式撕裂，那么它似乎就能完成这项工作。
So the way the muscle contracts is, imagine that you're rowing a boat on the water.
所以肌肉收缩的方式是，想象你在水面上划船。
So water is one protein.
所以水是一种蛋白质。
It's called actin.
它被称为肌动蛋白。
And myosin is the oars that are moving in there.
肌球蛋白是在那里移动的桨。
So the oar dips into the water, hooks, and pulls.
于是，桨浸入水中，钩住，拉动。
And that oar relies on available energy in the muscle.
桨依赖于肌肉中的可用能量。
So these ATP molecules of stored energy, they are floating around.
所以这些储存能量的 ATP 分子，它们四处漂浮。
And the myosin head needs that ATP in order to both to hook to produce force, but it also needs ATP to unhook as well.
肌球蛋白头需要 ATP 才能钩住以产生力，但它也需要 ATP 才能脱钩。
And it's in this in-between stage.
它正处于中间阶段。
It's called a rigor.
这就是所谓的严谨。
So whenever the muscle has produced force, but there is not enough energy for it to relax, so the muscle is stuck in rigor.
因此，每当肌肉产生力量，但没有足够的能量使其放松时，肌肉就会陷入僵硬状态。
So think of rigor mortis.
所以想想尸僵。
So if you tear a dead body's muscle, it's going to tear.
因此，如果你撕裂尸体的肌肉，它就会撕裂。
And supposedly, this is going to happen only when the consumption of ATP is really high in the muscle, but the supply is not.
据推测，只有当肌肉中 ATP 消耗量非常高，但供应量却并非如此时，这种情况才会发生。
And so if you do that in the first, let's say, 20, 30 seconds before acidosis set in, that's what should happen.
因此，如果您在第一次酸中毒发生前 20、30 秒这样做，那就应该发生这种情况。
Because if you wait longer when there's a lot of acid in the muscle, acid kills that reaction that uses ATP.
因为如果肌肉中有大量酸时等待时间较长，酸就会杀死使用 ATP 的反应。
So you're not using as much anymore.
所以你不再使用那么多了。
Sure, the demand is down.
当然，需求下降了。
The supply is down, but so is demand, so it's not so good.
供应下降了，但需求也下降了，所以情况不太好。
So if you erase that fatigue point, so if you try to deplete that creatine phosphate, that kind of rocket fuel of the muscle within about 20, 30 seconds, then presumably some of these hooks, some of these oars are going to get stuck.
因此，如果你消除疲劳点，如果你试图在大约 20、30 秒内耗尽磷酸肌酸（肌肉的火箭燃料），那么可能其中一些钩子、一些桨会被卡住。
And when the muscle's lengthening, then they're going to tear.
当肌肉拉长时，它们就会撕裂。
And that's a very specific tear.
这是一种非常特殊的眼泪。
It doesn't happen on the outside of the muscle.
它不会发生在肌肉外侧。
It happens just on the inside, in there.
它就发生在里面，在那里。
Whether this is true or not, I do not know, but it's a pretty good theory that does explain Mike Mentzer's method and explains the American powerlifting method.
我不知道这是否属实，但这是一个相当不错的理论，它确实解释了迈克·门泽尔的方法，也解释了美国的举重方法。
Interestingly enough about Mike Mentzer, and again, to the listeners who are not aware of the method, that means train a muscle really hard, very infrequently, with very low volume.
关于迈克·门泽尔（Mike Mentzer），很有趣的是，对于那些不知道这种方法的听众来说，这意味着要非常努力地、非常不频繁地、用非常低的音量训练肌肉。
Professor Yuriy Verkoshansky, before he died, a famous Soviet sports scientist known in the West mostly as the father of what is called plyometrics in the West.
尤里·韦尔科尚斯基教授（Yuriy Verkoshansky）生前是一位著名的苏联运动科学家，在西方被称为“增强式训练之父”。
But he's also done many other things as well.
但他还做了很多其他事情。
He spoke very highly about Mentzer.
他对门泽评价很高。
He thought Mentzer was brilliant.
他认为门泽很聪明。
Mentzer was an innovator.
门策是一位创新者。
But some people get good results from it like you did, and a lot of people do not.
但有些人像你一样从中得到了好的结果，而很多人却没有。
And so pretty much what Pratasenko suggested that might happen is eventually you'll reach the limit of adaptation of how much you can deplete the creatine phosphate in that window.
因此，普拉塔森科建议，最终可能发生的情况是，您最终将达到适应极限，即在该窗口内可以消耗多少磷酸肌酸。
That's when you hit the wall.
那时你就碰壁了。
And this is where the American system comes in.
这就是美国制度发挥作用的地方。
This system is called cycling.
这个系统称为循环系统。
The history of cycling is fascinating.
自行车运动的历史非常有趣。
The relationship, the interaction between the Soviet and American strength schools is absolutely fascinating.
苏联和美国实力流派之间的关系、互动绝对是令人着迷的。
So just to go back for a minute.
让我们回顾一下。
Soviet track athletes in the '50s were using the typical stupid high-rep reps to burn.
20世纪50年代的苏联田径运动员正在使用典型的愚蠢的高次数次数来燃烧。
Then in the late '50s, some very sharp young specialist, Vitaly Chuzinov, he made a case at a conference said, "What are we doing?
然后在 50 年代末，一位非常敏锐的年轻专家 Vitaly Chuzinov 在一次会议上提出了一个案例，他说：“我们在做什么？
He said, "Let's look at what Paul Anderson, Dave Hebner, Bruce Randall, these North American strength athletes, let's look what they're doing.
他说：“让我们看看保罗·安德森、戴夫·赫伯纳、布鲁斯·兰德尔这些北美力量运动员，看看他们在做什么。
They're lifting heavy stuff for sets of three to five reps.
他们以三到五次为一组举起重物。
Let's knock the stunts and soft." Soviet track athletes started doing that right there.
让我们来表演特技吧。”苏联田径运动员就开始这么做了。
So this is how the Soviets, for example, learned from Americans.
这就是苏联人向美国人学习的方式。
As an example of how it went the other way.
作为一个例子来说明它是如何走向相反的方向的。
The classic periodization as it's known, Matveyev's periodization, in which you kind of start out with higher volume and less specific to lower volume, more intensity and so on.
众所周知，马特维耶夫的经典周期化是从较高的音量开始的，不太具体，例如较低的音量、较高的强度等。
That periodization is not used by lifters in the Soviet Union.
苏联的举重运动员不使用这种周期划分。
Lifters thought that it's just not usable.
举重运动员认为它根本不可用。
It's just inappropriate for their needs.
这不适合他们的需求。
Arkady Vorobyov, the professor and Olympic champion, made a very strong case.
教授、奥运会冠军阿尔卡季·沃罗比约夫 (Arkady Vorobyov) 提出了一个非常有力的论据。
Why?
为什么？
But Americans who got some limited information about it, American powerlifters, not weightlifters, were able to develop their own training system based on that premise, something that the Soviets didn't do.
但是美国人，他们获得了一些有限的信息，美国举重运动员，而不是举重运动员，能够基于这个前提开发自己的训练系统，这是苏联人没有做到的。
And the way it worked is like this: you don't necessarily have very high volume, but you start...
它的工作方式是这样的：你不一定有很高的交易量，但你开始......
I'm going to give you a most classic example of this type of cycling.
我将为您提供此类骑行的最经典示例。
Again, this is Cassidy, Gallagher, Cohen Karwoski.
再说一遍，这是卡西迪、加拉格尔、科恩·卡沃斯基。
Four-week blocks.
四个星期的区块。
Let's say that there's going to be three or four-week blocks, maybe four.
假设会有三到四个星期的封锁，也许是四个星期。
So you'll do a lift once a week.
所以你每周都会做一次电梯。
On week four, you go for a PR.
第四周，你去申请 PR。
So let's say this is a month of fives.
假设这是五月。
So this is on your week four, you're going to do a PR set of five.
因此，在第四周，您将进行一组五次的公关活动。
You plan for it.
你计划一下。
Week three is somewhere around your old PR.
第三周是在你的旧公关附近。
Week two is lighter.
第二周比较轻松。
Week one is lighter still.
第一周还是比较轻松的。
Okay?
好吧？
And then after that, you may increase the weight, but still relative effort is going to drop, and you're going to kind of repeat the process.
之后，你可能会增加重量，但相对的努力仍然会下降，你会重复这个过程。
So it does multiple things.
所以它可以做很多事情。
On the muscular level, so what Partanen explained, you pretty much decondition yourself temporarily, and you progressively increase that creatine phosphate use.
在肌肉水平上，帕塔宁解释说，你几乎暂时使自己失去了状态，并且逐渐增加了磷酸肌酸的使用。
So initially, when you're deconditioned, it doesn't take as much to get the stimulus.
所以一开始，当你的条件反射减弱时，不需要太多的刺激就能获得刺激。
You don't have to push really hard in the first week.
第一周你不必非常努力。
You push harder in the second, and harder and harder.
第二步你会更加努力，越来越努力。
There's a concept in periodization, so in sports science, of reactivity versus resistance.
在运动科学的周期化中有一个反应性与阻力的概念。
Reactivity means how responsive your body is to the stimulus, and resistance, kind of like in the medical terms, how much it's not affected by it.
反应性意味着您的身体对刺激的反应程度，以及抵抗力，有点像医学术语，即身体不受刺激影响的程度。
So when you're starting light after a layoff, your reactivity is high and your resistance is low.
因此，当您在休息后开始轻量时，您的反应性会很高，而抵抗力会很低。
It doesn't take much.
这并不需要太多。
So boom, suddenly you build this muscle.
突然间，你就长出了这块肌肉。
And then you keep building up.
然后你继续积累。
And when you reach a peak, then you just step back again.
当你达到顶峰时，你就会再次退后一步。
And on the side of the nervous system and endocrine system, much later Soviet research, they said you can train hard maximum two weeks out of four.
在神经系统和内分泌系统方面，很久以后的苏联研究表明，你可以在四个星期中最多进行两周的艰苦训练。
That's it.
就是这样。
More than that, you cannot handle.
更重要的是，你无法处理。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So for every month, you're training two weeks hard.
所以每个月你都会努力训练两周。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Two weeks hard.
辛苦了两周。
That's it.
就是这样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The other ones you're cruising?
你正在巡航的其他人？
You're-
你是——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Not as hard.
没那么难。
Sometimes easy, sometimes...
有时很容易，有时...
There are different ways of programming it.
有不同的编程方法。
The typical one that you hear about in the West is you kind of build things up for three weeks and then down in four.
你在西方听到的典型做法是，用三周的时间把事情做好，然后在四个星期内把事情放下。
It's one of about 16 different possible arrangements.
这是大约 16 种不同可能的安排之一。
Doesn't have to be.
不一定是。
Here's one brilliant way.
这是一种绝妙的方法。
Franco Columbu, who passed unfortunately, was not just a great bodybuilder, he was a great chiropractor and great strength athlete.
不幸去世的佛朗哥·哥伦布不仅仅是一位伟大的健美运动员，他还是一位伟大的脊椎按摩师和伟大的力量运动员。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Super strong.
超级强。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Very strong and brilliant.
非常强大和辉煌。
So he told me about his deadlift cycle.
所以他告诉我他的硬拉周期。
Week one, moderate.
第一周，中等。
Week two, heavy.
第二周，沉重。
Week three, moderate.
第三周，中等。
Week four, very heavy.
第四周，压力很大。
Again, this is a different way of arranging the same concept.
同样，这是排列同一概念的不同方式。
And these American powerlifters were able to build a system that built the muscle probably exactly in this manner.
这些美国举重运动员能够建立一个系统，可能正是以这种方式增强肌肉。
What was happening at the same time-- Oh yeah, and there was also another angle how that system possibly has worked.
同时发生的事情——哦，是的，还有另一个角度该系统可能如何运作。
This is fascinating.
这很有趣。
Any type of exercise that you do makes your muscles more slow-twitch.
您所做的任何类型的运动都会使您的肌肉更加缓慢地抽动。
It's just the way it is.
事情就是这样。
It's very, very bizarre.
这非常非常奇怪。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Even explosive work?
甚至爆炸性的工作？
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Even explosive.
甚至爆炸。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Even just trying to crush the bar and drive the deadlift up.
即使只是试图压碎杠铃并推动硬拉。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Even that, the more you do it.
即便如此，你做得越多。
So Goldspink's research back in the '80s that any cycle of stretching or contraction resets the heavy chain myosin, the contractile proteins.
Goldspink 在 80 年代的研究表明，任何拉伸或收缩循环都会重置重链肌球蛋白（收缩蛋白）。
That makes it towards slower type.
这使得它趋向于较慢的类型。
So any type of work.
所以任何类型的工作。
If you do biopsy on somebody who is a couch potato, you're going to find that person probably has a higher concentration of white fibers than you and I.
如果你对一个电视迷进行活组织检查，你会发现这个人的白色纤维浓度可能比你我更高。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wild.
狂野。
Very counterintuitive.
非常违反直觉。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Very counterintuitive.
非常违反直觉。
And so that's like a default setting for the fibers.
这就像光纤的默认设置。
However, if you take time off, something changes.
然而，如果你休息一段时间，情况就会发生变化。
And it goes beyond the change.
它超越了改变。
So this research came out of Sweden, I believe.
我相信这项研究来自瑞典。
When they trained a group of subjects in strength, they saw a predicted decrease in the ratio of type IIx fast-twitch fibers.
当他们训练一组受试者的力量时，他们发现 IIx 型快肌纤维的比例预计会下降。
Then they took a couple months off, and then they experienced, they called it MHC overshoot, myosin heavy chain.
然后他们休息了几个月，然后他们经历了，他们称之为 MHC 超调，即肌球蛋白重链。
Again, like fast fiber overshoot.
再次，就像快速光纤超调一样。
So they had something like 70 more percent fibers after that.
所以在那之后他们的纤维含量增加了 70%。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wild.
狂野。
Nobody takes two, three months off these days.
现在没有人休息两三个月。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
But Verkhoshansky figured out that is not needed for athletes because obviously you get deconditioned in other ways, right?
但维尔霍尚斯基发现运动员不需要这样做，因为显然你会以其他方式失去状态，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
So remember we talked about heterochronicity, different processes take place at different rates.
所以请记住我们讨论过异时性，不同的过程以不同的速率发生。
So it's like you're constantly playing whack the mole.
所以这就像是你一直在玩打地鼠的游戏。
So this is getting out of shape, but this is not recovered yet.
所以这已经变形了，但还没有恢复。
It's a game.
这是一场游戏。
That's a game of training programming.
这是一个训练编程的游戏。
So in the American system, first of all, the infrequent training, it reduced the stimulus for the conversion of the fibers towards the-
因此，在美国系统中，首先，不频繁的训练减少了纤维向-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see
我明白了
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
...
...
slower isoforms, slower types.
较慢的异构体，较慢的类型。
And the second of all, the taper that they did later.
第二个是他们后来做的锥度。
So suddenly switching from five to one triple, one double for a few weeks.
所以突然从五个变成一个三倍，一个两倍，持续了几周。
If you do that for just a few weeks, you do a one triple, one double, you're not going to lose much muscle mass because it really takes over a month.
如果你只这样做几周，你做一个三倍，一个双倍，你不会失去太多肌肉质量，因为这实际上需要一个多月的时间。
But there's enough time for the myosin to reconfigure itself to a faster type.
但肌球蛋白有足够的时间将自身重新配置为更快的类型。
So that's probably what happens.
所以这可能就是发生的情况。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
And neurologically, I think what happens, probably they exerted themselves very strongly once, twice a month.
从神经学角度来看，我认为会发生什么，可能他们每月一次、两次非常强烈地发挥自己。
So it's again in neural drive, probably with strength and disinhibition and other things like that.
所以这又是在神经驱动方面，可能是力量和去抑制以及其他类似的东西。
And the irony is The system has lost its popularity.
具有讽刺意味的是，该系统已经失去了受欢迎程度。
Some records in the deadlift, like Dan Austin's record and possibly Naba's, set back in the '90s and '80s.
硬拉方面的一些记录，例如丹·奥斯汀（Dan Austin）的记录，也可能是纳巴（Naba）的记录，可以追溯到 90 年代和 80 年代。
Oh, yeah, Lamar Gant.
哦，是的，拉马尔·甘特。
Lamar Gant is the strongest deadlifter pound per pound in history.
拉马尔·甘特（Lamar Gant）是历史上每磅重量最强的硬拉运动员。
So, 683 at bucks 32 or something like that.
所以，683 美元，32 美元或者类似的价格。
And it was done back in the '80s, so he trained that way.
这是在 80 年代完成的，所以他就是这样训练的。
Dan Austin.
丹·奥斯汀.
In other lifts, records have increased in part because of the equipment changes and some other reasons.
在其他电梯中，记录的增加部分是由于设备的变化和其他一些原因。
But Ed Coan dominated the platform for decades.
但埃德·科恩（Ed Coan）主导了该平台数十年。
So there are some great lifters who train this way, but then the system lost its popularity for reasons that have nothing to do with its effectiveness.
因此，有一些伟大的举重运动员以这种方式进行训练，但随后该系统由于与其有效性无关的原因而失去了受欢迎程度。
It doesn't mean it's appropriate for everybody, though, because train the lift once a week for one or two sets, there's not much practice.
但这并不意味着它适合所有人，因为每周训练一次举重动作一到两组，没有太多练习。
And that's a problem.
这是一个问题。
So unless you're training under a very high-level coach or you're already coming in with great skills, it's really good.
因此，除非你在非常高水平的教练的指导下训练，或者你已经拥有出色的技能，否则这真的很好。
Second, if you need any kind of a level of endurance or if you're playing other sport, you're going to be very sore from this type of training.
其次，如果您需要某种程度的耐力，或者您正在参加其他运动，那么这种训练会让您感到非常酸痛。
So it's a great system for a certain type of people.
因此，对于某些类型的人来说，这是一个很棒的系统。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, LMNT.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 LMNT。
LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need but nothing you don't.
LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您需要的一切，但没有您不需要的。
That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in the correct ratios, but no sugar.
这意味着电解质、钠、镁和钾的比例都正确，但不含糖。
Proper hydration is critical for optimal brain and body function.
适当的水合作用对于大脑和身体的最佳功能至关重要。
Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish cognitive and physical performance.
即使是轻微程度的脱水也会降低认知和身体表现。
It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes.
获得充足的电解质也很重要。
The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, are vital for the functioning of all the cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells.
电解质（钠、镁和钾）对于体内所有细胞（尤其是神经元或神经细胞）的功能至关重要。
Drinking LMNT dissolved in water makes it extremely easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes.
饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT 可以非常轻松地确保您获得足够的水分和电解质。
To make sure that I'm getting proper amounts of hydration and electrolytes, I dissolve one packet of LMNT in about 16 to 32 ounces of water when I wake up in the morning, and I drink that basically first thing in the morning.
为了确保我获得适量的水合作用和电解质，当我早上醒来时，我将一包 LMNT 溶解在大约 16 至 32 盎司的水中，并且我基本上早上第一件事就是喝它。
I also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and therefore losing a lot of water and electrolytes.
我还会在进行任何体育锻炼时饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT，尤其是在炎热的天气里，因为我会大量出汗，从而失去大量的水和电解质。
They have a bunch of different great-tasting flavors of LMNT.
他们有多种不同口味的 LMNT。
They have watermelon, citrus, et cetera.
他们有西瓜、柑橘等。
Frankly, I love them all.
坦白说，我爱他们所有人。
And now that we're in the winter months in the northern hemisphere, LMNT has their chocolate medley flavors back in stock.
现在正值北半球的冬季，LMNT 的巧克力混合口味又重新有货了。
I really like the chocolate flavors, especially the chocolate mint when it's heated up.
我真的很喜欢巧克力的味道，尤其是加热后的巧克力薄荷味。
So you put it in hot water, and that's a great way to replenish electrolytes and hydrate, especially when it's cold and dry outside, when hydration is especially critical.
所以你把它放入热水中，这是补充电解质和水分的好方法，尤其是当外面又冷又干的时候，此时水分补充尤为重要。
If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with the purchase of any LMNT drink mix.
如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman，购买任何 LMNT 混合饮料即可领取免费 LMNT 样品包。
Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.
再次强调，请访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman 索取免费样品包。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Joovv.
今天的节目也是Joovv给我们带来的。
Joovv makes medical-grade red light therapy devices.
Joovv 生产医疗级红光治疗设备。
Now, if there's one thing that I have consistently emphasized on this podcast, it is the incredible impact that light can have on our biology.
现在，如果我在这个播客中一直强调一件事，那就是光对我们的生物学产生的令人难以置信的影响。
Now, in addition to sunlight, red light and near-infrared light sources have been shown to have positive effects on improving numerous aspects of cellar and organ health, including faster muscle recovery, improved skin health and wound healing, improvements in acne, reduced pain and inflammation, even mitochondrial function, and improving vision itself.
现在，除了阳光之外，红光和近红外光源已被证明对改善细胞和器官健康的许多方面具有积极作用，包括更快的肌肉恢复、改善皮肤健康和伤口愈合、改善痤疮、减少疼痛和炎症，甚至线粒体功能，以及改善视力本身。
What sets Joovv lights apart and why they're my preferred red light therapy device is that they use clinically proven wavelengths, meaning specific wavelengths of red light and near-infrared light in combination to trigger the optimal cellar adaptations.
Joovv 灯的与众不同之处以及它们成为我首选红光治疗设备的原因在于它们使用经过临床验证的波长，这意味着特定波长的红光和近红外光相结合可以触发最佳的酒窖适应。
Personally, I use the Joovv whole body panel about three to four times a week, and I use the Joovv handheld light both at home and when I travel.
就我个人而言，我每周大约使用 Joovv 全身面板三到四次，在家和旅行时我都会使用 Joovv 手持灯。
If you'd like to try Joovv, you can go to Joovv, spelled J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Joovv，可以访问 Joovv，拼写为 J-O-O-V-V，.com/huberman。
Joovv is offering an exclusive discount to all Huberman Lab listeners with up to $400 off Joovv products.
Joovv 为所有 Huberman Lab 听众提供独家折扣，Joovv 产品最高可享受 400 美元的折扣。
Again, that's Joovv, spelled J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman to get up to $400 off.
同样，这是 Joovv，拼写为 J-O-O-V-V，.com/huberman 最高可享受 400 美元折扣。
Based on what you just told us about Franco's training and the rest, seems that shorter training cycles might be advantageous, even just conceptually and practically.
根据您刚刚告诉我们的关于弗朗哥的训练和其他内容，似乎较短的训练周期可能是有利的，即使只是在概念上和实践上也是如此。
I've tended to break up my year into 12 to 16-week training cycles.
我倾向于将一年分成 12 到 16 周的训练周期。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Been doing that for a long time, and now that I'm 49, this is the year that I decided I was going to start modifying my training a bit because certain little things aren't working for me as well.
这样做已经很长时间了，现在我已经 49 岁了，今年我决定开始稍微修改一下我的训练，因为某些小事情对我来说也不起作用。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You might laugh.
你可能会笑。
I'm actually curious whether or not you'll laugh or approve.
我其实很好奇你是否会笑或者赞同。
I switched at some point to using the belt squat, these belt squat platforms.
我在某个时候转而使用腰带深蹲，这些腰带深蹲平台。
I just feel like the-
我只是觉得——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
You may want to explain that.
你可能想解释一下。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
The belt squat is essentially you stand on a platform, so unfortunately you're on display for everybody there, but that's not why I do it.
腰带深蹲本质上是你站在一个平台上，所以不幸的是你向那里的每个人展示，但这不是我这样做的原因。
You step up onto a platform.
你走上一个平台。
Sometimes it's called a Pit Shark.
有时它被称为坑鲨。
Rogue makes a belt squat.
盗贼进行腰带深蹲。
There are other ones, of course.
当然还有其他的。
I have no relation to any of those companies.
我与这些公司没有任何关系。
And you wear a big thick lifting belt, but it's kind of sagging in the front as if you were going to attach a weight to it, but you attach yourself to, usually it's a cable or a lever between your legs.
你戴着一条又大又厚的提升带，但它的前面有点下垂，就好像你要在上面附加一个重物，但你把自己固定在上面，通常它是你两腿之间的一根电缆或杠杆。
Sounds scary, but that lever or cable can drop below the level of the platform you're standing on.
听起来很可怕，但杠杆或电缆可能会低于您所站立的平台的水平面。
And you can load up quite a bit of weight on this.
你可以在这上面承受相当大的重量。
What I love about it is you can get very vertical if you want or just a little bit of forward tilt because you can place your fingers on the handles.
我喜欢它的是，如果你愿意的话，你可以变得非常垂直，或者只是一点点向前倾斜，因为你可以将手指放在手柄上。
You can grip them if you like.
如果你愿意的话，你可以抓住它们。
The point being, there's a lot of degrees of freedom in terms of stance, and I like that you're not loading the shoulders.
重点是，姿势方面有很多自由度，而且我喜欢你不会给肩膀带来负担。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
True.
确实如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't want to sound like a wuss, but I'll do it.
我不想听起来像个胆小鬼，但我会这么做的。
I moved from standard squats, back squats to front squats, then to hack squats, and then now I've been playing around a lot with the belt squat.
我从标准深蹲、后深蹲到前深蹲，然后是哈克深蹲，现在我一直在尝试腰带深蹲。
I'm really enjoying it because you can go really deep.
我真的很喜欢它，因为你可以深入其中。
You can blast out of the bottom position.
你可以从底部位置爆发出来。
You can load up lots of plates on there if you have the strength to do so without the feeling that you're just compressing your whole spine
如果您有足够的力量，则可以在上面放置大量的钢板，而不会感觉整个脊柱受到挤压。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or worrying about dropping the weight.
或者担心体重下降。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I'm enjoying working with it.
所以我很享受与它一起工作。
I'd love your thoughts on belt squats.
我很想听听你对腰带深蹲的想法。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
True.
确实如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But in general, I am hearing you and I'm thinking that moving away from this 12 to 16-week cycles is going to be advantageous because what I'm finding is that It's hard to account for life events in that way and plan training and travel and all this, but four weeks is kind of a manageable thing.
但总的来说，我听到你的声音，我认为摆脱 12 到 16 周的周期将会是有利的，因为我发现很难以这种方式解释生活事件并计划培训和旅行等等，但四个星期是一种可以管理的事情。
This month, this is what I'm going to do.
这个月，这就是我要做的事情。
And of course, the months work together.
当然，这几个月是一起努力的。
The body doesn't know the difference between February and March, as it were.
可以说，身体不知道二月和三月之间的区别。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Well, in California it doesn't.
嗯，在加州则不然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It does, right.
确实如此，对吧。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
In some other places it does.
在其他一些地方确实如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It does.
确实如此。
Right, exactly.
对，完全正确。
The seasonal cycles are real elsewhere.
季节性周期在其他地方也是真实的。
But I'm thinking shorter training cycles might be a strong conceptual and practical framework.
但我认为较短的培训周期可能是一个强大的概念和实践框架。
And yeah, I'd love your thoughts on both of those.
是的，我很想听听你对这两个问题的想法。
The belt squat or leg work that's non-spine compressing-
非脊柱压缩的腰带深蹲或腿部训练
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and shorter training cycles as a general theme that people might think of incorporating into their training.
更短的培训周期作为人们可能会考虑纳入培训的一般主题。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
The belt squat and this leg work that's not spine compressing.
腰带深蹲和腿部训练不会压迫脊柱。
I'm going to address healthy people like yourself.
我要向像您这样的健康人士讲话。
So if somebody has medical restrictions, you got to do belt squat because the doctor says so, that's what you got to do.
因此，如果有人有医疗限制，你必须做腰带深蹲，因为医生这么说，这就是你必须做的。
As long as you're also addressing the rest of your posterior chain, as long as you're training your lower back, your upper back, obviously your neck, which obviously you're doing that, and in some other manner-
只要你也在训练你的后链的其余部分，只要你在训练你的下背部，你的上背部，显然你的脖子，显然你正在这样做，并且以其他方式 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
...
...
there's absolutely no problem with that.
这绝对没有问题。
So let's say you're doing some shrug pulls or something.
假设你正在做一些耸肩拉动作或其他动作。
You got that taken care of.
你已经处理好了。
Or you're doing some deadlifts.
或者你正在做一些硬拉。
And also for powerlifters, what powerlifters do, it's a tactic, is when you're training the same lift, especially if you train the same lift very frequently, there is always that heterochronicity.
对于举重运动员来说，举重运动员所做的，这是一种策略，就是当你训练相同的举重时，特别是如果你非常频繁地训练相同的举重，总是存在异时性。
Something is not catching up quite as fast.
有些事情并没有那么快地赶上。
So you're going deadlifting and your hands are beat up.
所以当你进行硬拉时，你的双手会受到重击。
Use straps.
使用带子。
Or you come and do the deadlifting and your back feels like, "Well, it's time to deadlift, but my back is not quite ready." Well, you could go do a narrow sumo or something like that.
或者当你来进行硬拉时，你的背部感觉就像是，“好吧，是时候硬拉了，但我的背部还没有准备好。”好吧，你可以去练习窄相扑或类似的东西。
So there are ways of modifying things this way.
所以有一些方法可以通过这种方式进行修改。
So you're able to, if let's say you hit some hard deadlifts or hard squats and you need some additional leg work, sure.
所以你是可以的，如果你做了一些硬拉或深蹲并且你需要一些额外的腿部训练，那是肯定的。
You don't need any extra stimulation for your upper back and mid back.
您的上背部和中背部不需要任何额外的刺激。
However, if you are a person who has more of a minimalist who does fewer exercises, then you just can't afford that because then you're going to have to do some additional exercises.
然而，如果你是一个更注重极简主义、锻炼次数较少的人，那么你就负担不起，因为那样你就必须做一些额外的锻炼。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
You're going to do something else.
你要做别的事。
So may I suggest for your listeners and viewers to do Zercher squats.
所以我可以建议你们的听众和观众做 Zercher 深蹲。
Again, a fantastic exercise.
这又是一次很棒的练习。
It does not beat up your shoulders.
它不会压垮你的肩膀。
It does not beat up your elbows or your wrists.
它不会敲打您的肘部或手腕。
It may leave some bruises, but it's okay.
它可能会留下一些瘀伤，但没关系。
You can live with that.
你可以忍受这一点。
And does that answer for the belt squat?
这是否适合腰带深蹲？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
And by the way, machines in general, here's also a very interesting observation about machines.
顺便说一句，对于一般的机器，这里还有一个关于机器的非常有趣的观察。
Machines are very useful for advanced trainees and fairly useless for beginners.
机器对于高级学员非常有用，但对于初学者则毫无用处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, I love that you said that.
哦，我喜欢你这么说。
I barely touched machines early on in my-
我在早期几乎没有接触过机器——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Good
好
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
training, dare I say call it a career.
培训，我敢说它是一种职业。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I've been doing it for more than 30 years, so I'll call it a stage of run.
但我已经这样做了30多年，所以我将其称为跑步的阶段。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
It's a good run.
跑得很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, it's a decent run.
是的，这是一次不错的跑步。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
But if you imagine the scenarios-
但如果你想象一下场景——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
...
...
what people do.
人们做什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
What do people do?
人们做什么？
"Oh, it's safer.
“哦，这样比较安全。
Get in, climb into this machine right there." You're not developing any stabilizers, so you get out of this machine, you get crushed somewhere.
进去，爬进这台机器。”你没有开发任何稳定器，所以你离开这台机器，你会在某个地方被压碎。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
But on the other hand, if you're a more advanced lifter, so like Marty Gallagher, one of the top powerlifting coaches in the world, he might recommend leg presses in a very specific deadlift stance to a lifter.
但另一方面，如果您是一名更高级的举重运动员，就像世界顶级举重教练之一马蒂·加拉格尔（Marty Gallagher）一样，他可能会向举重运动员推荐以非常特定的硬拉姿势进行腿举。
And this is going to increase strength in your leg drive without beating up your back, but you're already doing your deadlifts.
这会增加你腿部驱动的力量，而不会伤到你的背部，但你已经在做硬拉了。
You can definitely do that.
你绝对可以做到。
So advanced lifters may make a good use of machines, and they don't need to be taught how to do that.
因此，高级举重运动员可以很好地利用器械，而且不需要教他们如何做到这一点。
They can figure it out.
他们能弄清楚。
But beginners really should just use exclusively free weights.
但初学者确实应该只使用自由重量。
I'm not saying everybody should do squat, bench, deadlift, kettlebell snatch, and this and that.
我并不是说每个人都应该做深蹲、卧推、硬拉、壶铃抓举等等。
No. There's a large menu of exercises to choose from, but you got to choose just from that menu where you discover the weight that's free.
不。有大量的练习可供选择，但您必须从该菜单中进行选择，在那里您会发现免费的重量。
That's truly, truly free.
这是真正的、真正的免费。
Shall we move on to the cycle, shorter cycle?
我们可以继续循环，更短的循环吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, the shorter cycle.
是的，周期更短。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
A lot of it depends on the type of programming that you do.
这在很大程度上取决于您所做的编程类型。
So the type of progression that you use.
所以你使用的进展类型。
So if I may, may I step to the side on that?
那么如果可以的话我可以站在一边吗？
So in strength training, you can look at the typical linear progression.
所以在力量训练中，你可以看看典型的线性进展。
We just progressively increase the weight.
我们只是逐渐增加重量。
It only works for beginners, obviously.
显然，它只适用于初学者。
You look at the wave progression where you're going up for a while, then backing off, and then going up again.
你观察一下波浪的进展，你会上升一段时间，然后后退，然后再次上升。
And interestingly enough, in this classic American cycle, there's a wave there.
有趣的是，在这个经典的美国周期中，存在着一股浪潮。
Even though the weights keep going up every week, but if you did a set of five with 500 pounds on the fourth week of your fives, and then you went to 520 for a triple, 520 for a triple is a lot easier.
尽管重量每周都在增加，但如果你在五次训练的第四周以 500 磅的重量进行五次一组，然后你达到 520 磅三重，那么 520 磅三重就容易多了。
So there is a deload built in there, just people don't realize it.
所以里面有一个deload，只是人们没有意识到。
So it is a form of wave loading as well.
所以它也是波浪载荷的一种形式。
Then there is also the step loading.
然后还有一步加载。
Step loading is a very interesting way of going about it, and I believe it's the preferred programming choice for do it yourself people who not necessarily aspire to records but want to train in a very simple manner.
步进加载是一种非常有趣的方法，我相信对于那些不一定渴望记录但希望以非常简单的方式进行训练的自己动手的人来说，这是首选的编程选择。
And step loading pretty much means where you start out, it's kind of like reverse.
步进加载几乎意味着你从哪里开始，这有点像反向。
Think of George Costanza approach to progressive overload.
想想乔治·科斯坦萨（George Costanza）渐进式超负荷的方法。
So it's like regressive overload.
所以这就像回归超载。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Do the opposite.
反其道而行之。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Instead of starting light and going heavier, start fairly heavy and then stay with it, and then stay with it and stay with that until it becomes fairly light.
不要一开始就轻，然后越来越重，而是从相当大的重量开始，然后坚持下去，然后坚持下去，直到变得相当轻。
And then increase.
然后再增加。
In that case, you're staying this longer.
在这种情况下，你会停留更长时间。
So that's a good approach for less experienced people.
因此，对于经验不足的人来说，这是一个好方法。
There are limitations.
有限制。
Advanced athletes run into limitations of this method.
高级运动员会遇到这种方法的局限性。
And finally, there is variable overload, which is what's used in the Soviet weightlifting system and later in Russian powerlifting, and there's no progression there at all.
最后，还有可变过载，这是苏联举重系统和后来俄罗斯举重中使用的方法，而且根本没有进展。
It is just based on pure aperiodicity, irregularity So it's like imagine muscle confusion, but the smart kind, and nervous system confusion where it loads whiplash at least 20% every time in volume from session to session or week to week.
它只是基于纯粹的非周期性、不规则性，所以这就像想象肌肉混乱，但聪明的那种，以及神经系统混乱，每次训练或每周都会加载至少 20% 的鞭打量。
And exercises are changing and so on, so there's no progression whatsoever.
而且练习也在变化等等，所以没有任何进展。
So if you're using a fairly conventional linear or wave progression, the shorter cycle is generally a good idea, at least for older lifters.
因此，如果您使用相当传统的线性或波浪级数，那么较短的周期通常是一个好主意，至少对于年长的举重运动员来说。
Like in using the American powerlifting experience, older lifters, looking back at Ernie Frantz, Rickey Crane.
就像使用美国举重经验一样，老举重运动员回顾厄尼·弗朗茨（Ernie Frantz）、瑞基·克莱恩（Rickey Crane）。
Rickey Crane especially, who passed recently, unfortunately.
尤其是瑞奇·克莱恩（Rickey Crane），不幸的是，他最近去世了。
So they were observing how an older lifter can't afford to start as light because he ends up losing ground too much, and he can't afford to go as heavy as well, or not for long.
因此，他们正在观察一个年长的举重运动员如何无法承受那么轻的重量，因为他最终失去了太多的地面，并且他也无法承担那么重的重量，或者不能持续很长时间。
So they pretty much switched to shorter cycles, something like eight-week cycles, even possibly six-week cycles.
因此，他们几乎转向了更短的周期，比如八周周期，甚至可能是六周周期。
So it's a legit approach.
所以这是一个合法的方法。
But there are many different ways, obviously, because you're looking at the big picture.
但显然有很多不同的方法，因为你要着眼于大局。
You kind of have to look at it from up close and from afar.
你必须从近处和远处观察它。
But overall, I'd say yes.
但总的来说，我会说是的。
For older and more experienced lifters, it's a good idea.
对于年龄较大且经验丰富的举重运动员来说，这是一个好主意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Most people, I think, who do resistance training these days would like to also have some degree of cardiovascular fitness.
我认为，现在进行阻力训练的大多数人都希望拥有一定程度的心血管健康。
In fact, I think one of the great things that's happened in the last five to 10 years is that most everybody, men, women, we can talk about kids and kid training, but adult men and women are thinking about muscle, the importance of having muscle, and being strong in particular as part of their longevity and health.
事实上，我认为过去五到十年发生的一件伟大的事情是，大多数人，无论男性还是女性，我们都可以谈论孩子和儿童训练，但成年男性和女性正在考虑肌肉，拥有肌肉的重要性，特别是作为长寿和健康的一部分，保持强壮。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is a great progression that's so very different than when I was growing up, where the only people, at least in American gyms, that lifted were pre-season football players, bodybuilders, and maybe a few other niche groups.
这是一个巨大的进步，与我成长过程中的情况有很大不同，当时唯一能举重的人，至少在美国的健身房里，是季前赛的橄榄球运动员、健美运动员，也许还有其他一些小众群体。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But now things have really changed.
但现在情况真的发生了变化。
Earlier, we were talking about why the Soviet system and training for strength has been the tradition, and here why things are just so different in how we conceptualize resistance training.
早些时候，我们讨论了为什么苏联的体系和力量训练一直是传统，以及为什么我们对阻力训练的概念如此不同。
And I'll just go out on a limb and say what I believe and have thought for a long time, which is that what screwed up everything in terms of people's conceptualization about how to use resistance is bodybuilding.
我只想大胆地说出我长期以来的信念和想法，那就是，就人们如何使用阻力的概念而言，健美运动把一切都搞砸了。
No knock against people that want to make bigger muscles, but-
对于那些想要锻炼出更大肌肉的人来说，这并不是什么打击，但是——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
That was just screw-up number one.
那只是搞砸了第一件事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
It seems to be that the idea is you go to the gym multiple times per week, you get a pump.
似乎这个想法是你每周去健身房多次，你就会得到一个泵。
This notion of the pump, it always feels aversive to me.
泵的这个概念，总是让我感到厌恶。
Not the pump itself, but when people talk about it, it just feels a little inappropriate.
不是泵本身，但当人们谈论它时，只是感觉有点不合适。
Like, "Let's get a pump." It just feels weird when people say that.
就像，“让我们买一个泵。”当人们这么说时，感觉很奇怪。
In any event, but this whole notion of just flushing the muscle with blood and getting it to-- Sure, you get some window into your potential future self if you go home and eat a bunch of food and sleep, but somehow it's so unathletic-
无论如何，但这整个概念只是用血液冲洗肌肉并使其达到——当然，如果你回家吃一堆食物并睡觉，你就可以了解未来潜在的自己，但不知怎的，它是如此缺乏运动——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in its approach.
在它的方法中。
And I have friends who've done competitive bodybuilding and that sort of thing.
我有一些朋友参加过竞技健美之类的活动。
Not too many.
不是太多。
So I've respect for the sport at some level, but I feel like the way it's spilled over into, quote-unquote, "gym culture" has done equal harm and good.
所以我在某种程度上尊重这项运动，但我觉得它渗透到“健身文化”中的方式带来了同样的伤害和好处。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And what I like so much about your work is that it's really about strength as a skill, strength as an asset for longevity.
我非常喜欢你的工作，因为它实际上是关于力量作为一种技能，力量作为长寿的资产。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I guess when I think about somebody who wants to be strong, somebody who wants to be healthy, I also have to ask should people be training for strength and endurance, like the two opposite ends of the spectrum?
我想，当我想到一个想要变得强壮、想要保持健康的人时，我还必须问人们是否应该进行力量和耐力训练，就像频谱的两端一样？
Because it seems to me that would be the answer.
因为在我看来这就是答案。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Great question.
很好的问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As opposed to what most people do, which is, "Hey, I'm going to go to the gym.
与大多数人所做的相反，“嘿，我要去健身房。
Maybe I'll push a sled, and then I'll do some kettlebell swings, and then I'll also do some pull-ups, and then I'm going to take a picture of my tricep in the mirror." It just seems like while it's better than doing nothing-
也许我会推雪橇，然后做一些壶铃摆动，然后我也会做一些引体向上，然后我要在镜子里拍一张我的三头肌的照片。”看起来虽然总比什么都不做要好——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's clearly not making America that much healthier.
显然这并没有让美国变得更健康。
And I just think there's such a vast landscape of opportunity in training for strength and endurance, but they seem at such odds-
我只是认为在力量和耐力训练方面存在着巨大的机会，但它们似乎很困难-
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with one another for most people.
对于大多数人来说。
So maybe we could just kind of throw up on the whiteboard here this notion of training to get strong.
所以也许我们可以把这个通过训练变得更强的概念扔到白板上。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Strength as a skill.
力量作为一种技能。
Strength as something that's valuable for longevity.
力量对于长寿来说是有价值的。
I think we touched on that a little bit earlier.
我想我们早些时候就谈到了这一点。
And then endurance, the ability to carry two suitcases to the airplane without coughing up a lung at the end.
然后是耐力，能够拎着两个行李箱上飞机，最后不咳出肺。
Also, the ability to take a hike with your partner or your kids, maybe actually have a backpack on your back and not have to stop every 50 paces.
此外，与伴侣或孩子一起徒步旅行的能力可能实际上背着背包，而不必每走 50 步就停下来。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just being a fit overall person.
只是做一个整体健康的人。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
You bet.
你打赌。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which one, forgive me for the duration of this question, but when one travels to Europe, I haven't spent too much time in Eastern Europe, but when you get over to Switzerland or Austria, you see people who are strong, and they have endurance.
是哪一个，请原谅我这个问题的持续时间，但是当一个人去欧洲旅行时，我没有在东欧待太多时间，但是当你到瑞士或奥地利时，你会看到人们很坚强，他们有耐力。
I imagine a Sherpa is strong with endurance as well, right?
我想夏尔巴人的耐力也很强，对吗？
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
By the way, Sherpas are really messed up.
顺便说一句，夏尔巴人真的很混乱。
Their mitochondria are truly messed up.
他们的线粒体确实一团糟。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh.
哦。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
This is excessive hypoxia.
这是过度缺氧。
It's very interesting.
这很有趣。
Their metabolism is quite severely anaerobic.
它们的新陈代谢是相当严重的厌氧。
It's very weird.
这很奇怪。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, weird.
哦，奇怪。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
The markers of oxidative stress is really, really high.
氧化应激的标志物确实非常高。
But sorry, that's off topic.
但抱歉，这是题外话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, no, we can touch on that because it's interesting, people who live at altitude and-
不，不，我们可以谈谈这个，因为这很有趣，生活在高海拔地区的人们——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Up to a certain point.
到了一定程度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Okay.
好的。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Denver is good.
丹佛不错。
The Himalaya is not good.
喜马拉雅山不太好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Well, yeah, I have Scandinavian relatives, and you go to Denmark or-
嗯，是的，我有斯堪的纳维亚亲戚，你去丹麦或者-
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
Sweden or Norway, and you just look at them.
瑞典或挪威，你只要看看他们就知道了。
These people are so healthy.
这些人是如此健康。
Their posture is great, they're strong, and they're not spending a lot of time in gyms.
他们的姿势很好，很强壮，而且他们不会花很多时间在健身房里。
Sometimes they are.
有时他们是。
So what's going on in terms of strength and endurance and maybe how bodybuilding and this notion of building muscle has perhaps caused some issues that we need to help people reconceptualize?
那么力量和耐力方面发生了什么，也许健美和增强肌肉的概念是如何引起一些问题的，我们需要帮助人们重新认识这些问题？
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Once again, several great questions.
再次提出几个很好的问题。
Let's talk about bodybuilding and then before getting to endurance.
在讨论耐力之前，我们先谈谈健美。
What you said, it's absolutely true, but I'd say there are different types of bodybuilding.
你说的绝对正确，但我想说健美有不同类型。
If you look at bodybuilding historically, guys were strong I've had the honor of knowing some golden age-era bodybuilders like Franco Columbu and Dave Draper and Clarence Bass, and these guys were formidable.
如果你看看健美运动的历史，你会发现人们都很强壮，我有幸认识了一些黄金时代的健美运动员，比如佛朗哥·哥伦布、戴夫·德雷珀和克拉伦斯·巴斯，这些人都很强大。
They were not just pretty boys.
他们不仅仅是漂亮男孩。
They were absolutely extremely strong.
他们绝对是极其强大的。
So I think something happened in the culture where bodybuilders stopped valuing strength, some bodybuilders.
所以我认为健美运动员不再重视力量的文化中发生了一些事情，一些健美运动员。
There's still a number of guys out there who are following traditional methods and are strong.
仍然有很多人遵循传统方法并且很强大。
Also, interestingly enough, the bro split, hit a muscle once a week, it's not necessarily bad if you, again, follow more into this classic American powerlifting model.
另外，有趣的是，兄弟分裂，每周锻炼一次肌肉，如果你再次更多地关注这种经典的美国举重模式，这并不一定是坏事。
So instead of training three times a week, you train five.
因此，您不再每周训练三次，而是每周训练五次。
In addition to your squad day, deadlift day, bench day, you can have shoulders day and arms day and whatever, but you go heavy.
除了你的球队日、硬拉日、替补日之外，你还可以有肩部日和手臂日等等，但你要加大重量。
Look at Reg Park-
看看雷格·帕克——
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
...
...
with his sets of five.
和他的五件套。
And if you focus, if you emphasize this medium reps, and again, Soviets eventually came to the conclusion that for strength, you should stick in the one to six repetition range, and you shouldn't do a lot of singles and doubles.
如果你集中注意力，如果你强调中等次数，苏联人最终得出的结论是，为了增强力量，你应该坚持一到六次重复范围，并且你不应该做很多单打和双打。
Threes and fours should predominate.
三人四人应占主导地位。
But fours, and especially fives and sixes, this is where you get both hypertrophy and strength.
但是四人组，尤其是五人组和六人组，这是你获得肥大和力量的地方。
That's that beautiful combination.
这就是那个美丽的组合。
And fives have a great tradition in American powerlifting as well.
五人制在美国举重运动中也有着悠久的传统。
If you train with fives, you're going to get muscle and you're going to get strength, and you're not going to complicate things.
如果你用五人组训练，你就会获得肌肉和力量，而且不会让事情变得复杂。
So there are some bodybuilders out there who train in this particular manner, and they're fantastically strong, just not many of them, unfortunately.
因此，有一些健美运动员以这种特殊的方式进行训练，而且他们非常强壮，但不幸的是，这样的人并不多。
But I also would like to add that there's another influence that messed things up.
但我还想补充一点，还有另一种影响使事情变得混乱。
I would take the bros of the '90s with the big bench press and the chicken legs to these guys who stand on balls and juggle oranges and whatever the hell they're doing.
我会把 90 年代那些拥有大卧推和鸡腿的兄弟带到那些站在球上、玩弄橙子以及无论他们在做什么的人身上。
The idea is, so there's the concept of neuroplasticity, which obviously you know so much more than I about, that's always thrown around.
这个想法是，所以就有了神经可塑性的概念，显然你比我知道得多，但它总是被抛在一边。
"Oh, you need variety." And so they throw every circus trick at these poor clients.
“哦，你需要多样性。”所以他们对这些可怜的客户施展各种马戏伎俩。
And by the way, I use the word clients purposefully, like at StrongFirst, at our school of strength, we have students because hair salons have clients.
顺便说一句，我有目的地使用“客户”这个词，就像在 StrongFirst，在我们的实力学校，我们有学生，因为美发沙龙有客户。
But in that world, they're definitely clients.
但在那个世界里，他们绝对是客户。
"Well, today you're going to stand on one foot and then you're going to pull on this cable, and then tomorrow you're going to kneel and you're going to do this kind of thing." While asymmetrical loading and symmetry are absolutely something that's needed under certain condition, you need to do it in a professional way.
“好吧，今天你要单脚站立，然后你要拉动这条缆绳，然后明天你要跪下，你要做这样的事情。”虽然不对称载荷和对称性是在某些条件下绝对需要的，但您需要以专业的方式来完成。
Like if you look at Gray Cook's work.
就像你看看格雷·库克的作品一样。
Gray will tell you, just get yourself symmetrical and start lifting instead of resort to this unlimited, what a colleague of mine, Mark Rippin called random acts of variety.
格雷会告诉你，只要让自己保持对称，然后开始举重，而不是采取这种无限的方式，我的同事马克·里平（Mark Rippin）称之为随机的变化行为。
So I'd say that's the other-- There are way too many choices.
所以我想说的是另一个——选择太多了。
And when there are no constraints, when everything's available, you go to a store, everything's available, you don't know what to pick.
当没有限制时，当一切都可用时，你去商店，一切都可用，你不知道该选什么。
And you can stick with that.
你可以坚持下去。
So that's a very big problem I would say.
所以我想说这是一个很大的问题。
So I would say the less time people spend on the internet, unless you're looking up research papers or doing something else valuable or fine, watching a good movie, that's all right.
所以我想说，人们花在互联网上的时间越少，除非你正在查找研究论文或做其他有价值或美好的事情，看一部好电影，那没关系。
So unless you're looking up a research paper or watching a movie, forget about it.
因此，除非您正在查找研究论文或观看电影，否则请忘记它。
Or your podcast or my website, that's it.
或者你的播客或我的网站，就是这样。
The rest of it is off-limits.
其余部分是禁区。
But strength and endurance.
但力量和耐力。
Endurance is a very broad term.
耐力是一个非常广泛的术语。
And if we talk about, let's talk a little bit about training for athletes for endurance, and let's talk maybe a little bit for the general population we're trying to do for health, and again, for just going for a hike.
如果我们谈论的话，让我们谈谈对运动员的耐力训练，让我们谈谈我们正在努力为健康而努力的普通人群，再说一次，只是为了徒步旅行。
So the endurance of being able to do triathlon or swim a very long distance, the adaptations are primarily taking place in the slow fibers, and you have some very specific adaptations to the capillaries and the mitochondria, so many things, but in a very specific way.
因此，能够进行铁人三项或长距离游泳的耐力，适应主要发生在慢纤维中，并且对毛细血管和线粒体有一些非常具体的适应，很多东西，但以非常具体的方式。
And that's not going to help you, let's say if you're a fighter.
假设你是一名战士，那对你没有帮助。
It's happened over and over where a guy who's been a marathoner, he takes up MMA and he starts getting gassed really rapidly because while his slow fibers can keep going forever, but not at the intensity that's required for this particular sport.
这种情况一次又一次地发生，一个曾经是马拉松运动员的人，当他开始参加综合格斗比赛时，他开始很快就气喘吁吁，因为虽然他的慢纤维可以永远持续下去，但达不到这项特定运动所需的强度。
And also we're talking about there's endurance that's peripheral and central.
我们还讨论了外围和核心的耐力。
So you're talking about obviously your heart, you're talking about your lungs, you're talking about the plumbing, but then you're also talking about the extraction and use of the oxygen, which is huge and it's totally different.
所以你显然在谈论你的心脏，你在谈论你的肺，你在谈论管道，但你也在谈论氧气的提取和使用，这是巨大的，而且是完全不同的。
It can be trained with the same methods, but adaptations are very different.
它可以用相同的方法进行训练，但适应性却截然不同。
So then when people realize that, "Oh, let's start smoking these MMA guys and martial arts guys and BJJ guys, let's just make them puke, and that's going to improve their endurance." And it does improve their endurance, but at a very high cost.
所以当人们意识到，“哦，让我们开始抽烟这些综合格斗选手、武术选手和巴西柔术选手，让他们呕吐，这将提高他们的耐力。”它确实提高了他们的耐力，但代价非常高。
So in the Soviet sports science, there's a term, the cost of adaptation comes from Felix Meerson, a professor.
所以在苏联的体育科学里，有一个术语，适应的成本，来自菲利克斯·梅尔森教授。
He was a cardiopathologist originally, but later, again, his research on stress is amazing.
他原本是一名心脏病学家，但后来他对压力的研究再次令人惊叹。
So there's the cost of adaptation.
所以这就是适应的成本。
And it's the same thing is pretty much as buying a car or table.
这与购买汽车或桌子几乎是一样的。
You can get the same table for a lower price, or you can pay the top dollar.
您可以以较低的价格获得同一张桌子，也可以支付最高的价格。
So you can increase your strength while at the same time blowing your back out, or you can increase your VO2 max while getting arrhythmia in the process, or you can do it in a healthy way.
因此，您可以在增加力量的同时让背部发力，或者您可以增加最大摄氧量，同时在此过程中出现心律失常，或者您可以以健康的方式进行。
So one of the issues you have to look at, they're trying to lower the biological cost of the adaptation.
因此，你必须关注的问题之一是，他们正在努力降低适应的生物成本。
So in strength training, we do that by very careful and not training hard too often.
因此，在力量训练中，我们要非常小心，不要过于频繁地进行剧烈训练。
So again, the American system is two weeks out of four.
再说一遍，美国的系统是四个星期中的两周。
The Soviet system, pretty much the same, although the planning is going to be different.
苏联的体系几乎相同，尽管规划会有所不同。
First, if we look at the cardiovascular adaptations before looking into the mitochondria and into the muscle, most of the work should be done below the threshold, pretty much.
首先，如果我们在研究线粒体和肌肉之前先研究心血管适应，那么大部分工作应该在阈值以下完成，几乎。
So what's the threshold?
那么门槛是多少呢？
So for runners, let's say you're running, and you're able to maintain a conversation, and when you start running too fast and you cannot maintain the conversation, you pass the threshold.
所以对于跑步者来说，假设你正在跑步，并且你能够保持对话，当你开始跑得太快而无法保持对话时，你就通过了阈值。
It's like you're going faster and you're breathing harder linearly, and suddenly it goes like this, like a hockey stick.
就好像你的速度越来越快，呼吸也越来越困难，突然间，事情就变成这样了，就像一根曲棍球棒一样。
So at that point, your body's no longer able to process all that acid, and things are starting to get hard.
所以到那时，你的身体就不再能够处理所有的酸，事情开始变得困难。
So there are certain implications for your muscles, for sure.
因此，这肯定会对您的肌肉产生一定的影响。
We'll discuss that in a few minutes.
我们将在几分钟内讨论这个问题。
But for your heart, there are two things we're primarily trying to train.
但对于你的心脏来说，我们主要尝试训练两件事。
One, we're trying to train the stroke volume, so pretty much how much blood the heart can pump out with each contraction.
第一，我们正在尝试训练每搏输出量，即心脏每次收缩时可以泵出多少血液。
And it's a very simple thing to do.
这是一件非常简单的事情。
You get up to 70 to 85% of your maximal heart rate.
您的心率可达最大心率的 70% 至 85%。
So the heart starts stretching, literally.
所以，从字面上看，心脏开始伸展。
So this blood is incoming, and the heart starts stretching, and it requires volume.
因此，血液流入，心脏开始伸展，需要容量。
Some Tour de France riders, they might throw the food in the back of the cycle, and they ride all day because that's what they've got to do.
一些环法自行车赛车手可能会将食物扔到自行车后面，然后他们骑一整天，因为这是他们必须做的事情。
And that requires that adaptation.
这需要适应。
For people who just do for health, you don't need to do that much.
对于只是为了健康而做的人来说，不需要做那么多。
30, 40 minutes several times a week is enough.
每周几次30、40分钟就足够了。
But for a high level, you have to stretch the heart.
但要想达到高水平，就必须舒展内心。
If you start redlining the heart rate, the heart starts twitching.
如果您开始调整心率，心脏就会开始抽搐。
So there's no time for it to fully relax and stretch.
所以没有时间让它完全放松和伸展。
You're no longer really increasing your stroke volume.
您不再真正增加每搏输出量。
And what you're doing right now, you're strengthening your ejection fraction, which is like the strength of the heart, which is needed for athletes whose sports require redlining the heart rate.
而你现在所做的，是在增强你的射血分数，这就像心脏的力量一样，这对于那些需要调整心率的运动的运动员来说是必需的。
If you're a fighter, if you are a 400-meter runner, you absolutely need to do that.
如果你是一名战士，如果你是一名 400 米跑步者，你绝对需要这样做。
But what they found, it went back to German research going to decades later and then the Soviet research.
但他们的发现可以追溯到几十年后的德国研究，然后是苏联的研究。
If you start redlining your heart rate before you have that volume that you put in and built up the stroke volume, you're just heading for pathology.
如果您在输入心率并建立每搏输出量之前就开始调整心率，那么您就正在走向病理学。
So there are arrhythmias, there's all sorts of different things that the AFibs, all sorts of things that can start to happen that are bad.
因此，会出现心律失常、心房颤动等各种不同的情况，以及各种可能开始发生的不良情况。
And also, your performance is not going to be very high because, again, your stroke volume is not there.
而且，你的表现不会很高，因为你的每搏输出量不存在。
And even for athletes who do that, they should do it for a very short period of time.
即使对于这样做的运动员来说，他们也应该在很短的时间内完成。
It's just too stressful, and it's just not needed.
压力太大了，而且没有必要。
Typically, it's a peak.
通常，这是一个峰值。
It's peaking phase for some weeks before leading up to the competition.
在比赛之前，这是几周的高峰阶段。
So pretty much steady state exercise, like riding a cycle or jogging or hiking, when you're still able to talk, it's the best, most efficient, and healthiest way to promote that quality when you're increasing your heart stroke volume.
因此，当您仍然能够说话时，几乎稳态运动，例如骑自行车、慢跑或徒步旅行，是在增加心搏量时提高这种质量的最佳、最有效和最健康的方法。
If you decide to get a little more intense, at some point, interval training is appropriate, but unfortunately, it's completely and totally messed up and misunderstood.
如果您决定在某个时候进行更激烈的训练，间歇训练是合适的，但不幸的是，它完全混乱并被误解。
It's like a catch-all term, high-intensity interval training.
这就像一个包罗万象的术语，高强度间歇训练。
And Brent Rushall, a professor out of San Diego, said, "This is nonsense.
圣地亚哥教授布伦特·鲁歇尔 (Brent Rushall) 表示：“这是无稽之谈。
This term is nonsense.
这个词纯属无稽之谈。
What does it even mean?" What's high intensity?
这到底是什么意思？”什么是高强度？
And also, here's a question: what does low-intensity interval training mean?
另外，还有一个问题：低强度间歇训练是什么意思？
Going back to taking a step to the side, but that discussion will help us when we discuss what happens in the muscle.
回到向侧面迈出一步，但是当我们讨论肌肉中发生的情况时，这种讨论会对我们有所帮助。
Terminology.
术语。
So there are different rest periods between sets.
所以组与组之间有不同的休息时间。
There is the ordinary rest period, which means you pretty much recover your function.
有一个正常的休息时间，这意味着你的功能已经基本恢复了。
It's like you're just as strong or just as enduring as from the previous set.
就好像你和上一组一样坚强或一样持久。
There is the supra-max rest period when if you rest extra, sometimes you get some extra performance out of it.
有一个超最大休息期，如果你额外休息，有时你会从中获得一些额外的表现。
And there is the stress rest period when the next set is going to be harder.
还有压力休息期，下一组会变得更加困难。
Your performance may or may not be compromised, but it's going to be harder.
你的表现可能会也可能不会受到影响，但会变得更加困难。
So with ordinary rest periods, in track, it's called repeat training.
所以在正常的休息时间里，在赛道上，这就是所谓的重复训练。
So you run 100 meters, then you rest for whatever, 10, 15 minutes, as long as you need, longer possibly, then you repeat it again, and your performance stay this way.
所以你跑 100 米，然后你休息 10、15 分钟，只要你需要，可能更长，然后你再重复一遍，你的表现就保持这样。
Interval training, again, it's established, it just means that things are going to get worse from set to set.
间歇训练再次被确立，它只是意味着事情会从一组到一组变得更糟。
So that's the definition of interval training.
这就是间歇训练的定义。
The irony is that interval training was designed to increase the intensity of exercise while reducing the demands on the body.
讽刺的是，间歇训练的目的是增加运动强度，同时减少对身体的需求。
So if you look at the work of Fox and Edwards, they're pioneers of interval training in the United States.
因此，如果你看看福克斯和爱德华兹的工作，就会发现他们是美国间歇训练的先驱。
They gave some great examples.
他们举了一些很好的例子。
So let's say you're running for 30 seconds, and you're at this speed, and you're going to produce this much acid, and your heart rate is going to be this high.
假设您跑步 30 秒，以这个速度，您将产生这么多的酸，您的心率也会如此高。
Well, if you run for 10 seconds with short periods in between, at the same speed, you're going to produce a lot less acid, and your heart rate is not going to climb to the stratosphere.
好吧，如果你以相同的速度跑 10 秒，中间间隔很短的时间，你产生的酸就会少得多，而且你的心率也不会升至平流层。
And that type of training is very useful.
这种类型的培训非常有用。
And interval training can be used for promoting any type of adaptation.
间歇训练可用于促进任何类型的适应。
You can use it for hypertrophy.
您可以将其用于肥大。
So here is one training method I learned from my colleague, Fabio Zonnin.
这是我从同事 Fabio Zonnin 那里学到的一种训练方法。
It was designed by Professor Massaroni, an Italian Mr. Universe and professor.
它是由意大利宇宙先生、教授马萨罗尼教授设计的。
Okay, you take 80% of your one-rep max, let's say presumably eight-rep max.
好的，您将完成最多 1 次重复的 80%，假设最多完成 8 次重复。
Set of five, rest for 30 seconds.
五次为一组，休息 30 秒。
Set of five, rest for 30 seconds.
五次为一组，休息 30 秒。
If you cannot do it anymore, you're done.
如果你不能再这样做了，你就完了。
And then you come back maybe 10 minutes later, do it again.
然后你大概 10 分钟后回来，再做一次。
That's an example of interval training again.
这又是间歇训练的一个例子。
Speaker 4:
演讲者4：
I see.
我明白了。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
And you can structure interval training for adaptations within the muscle, mitochondria, and you can also do that for your heart.
你可以为肌肉、线粒体的适应构建间歇训练，也可以为你的心脏做同样的事情。
So here's how you do it for the heart.
所以这就是你如何为心脏做这件事。
Today, there are a lot of fancy popular protocols, but all you have to do is go back to what Germans did many decades ago.
如今，有很多奇特的流行协议，但您所要做的就是回到德国人几十年前所做的事情。
Here's the premise.
这是前提。
Your vegetative system, your heart, your lungs, your plumbing, they have inertia.
你的植物系统，你的心脏，你的肺，你的管道，它们都有惯性。
So, for example, imagine yourself as a kid.
例如，想象一下自己还是个孩子。
You run really, really hard.
你跑得真的非常努力。
You run for 100 meters or something, or less maybe.
你跑 100 米左右，或者更少。
And everything's fine, and then you're talking to your buddy and suddenly you start sucking wind.
一切都很好，然后你正在和你的朋友说话，突然你开始吸风。
So that's an example of this inertia.
这就是这种惯性的一个例子。
So if you get your heart rate up to about 85% to 90% of one rep max, and then you suddenly switch to jogging, you don't want to stop because that's just way too hard for your heart without getting that venous return from muscles working.
因此，如果您的心率达到一次最大重复次数的 85% 到 90%，然后您突然转为慢跑，您就不会想停下来，因为这对您的心脏来说太难了，而且肌肉无法得到静脉回流。
What happens is the heart slows down, but there's that blood keeps on moving, and the blood literally stretches the walls of the heart.
发生的情况是心脏减慢，但血液继续流动，并且血液确实拉伸了心壁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
So sprint perhaps, 100, 200, 300, 400 meters, and then jog back?
那么也许是冲刺 100、200、300、400 米，然后慢跑回来？
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Traditionally, it was not quite a sprint.
传统上，这并不完全是冲刺。
The duration would be typical 60 to 90 second.
持续时间通常为 60 至 90 秒。
The intensity is such that you get up to top off at 85, 90% of your heart rate max, something like that.
强度应达到最大心率的 85%、90%，类似的程度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
And then you jog until your heart rate goes to about 60, 70%.
然后你慢跑直到你的心率达到大约 60%、70%。
So that's roughly about the same probably.
所以这可能大致相同。
And that, to look things up, it's like German interval training that was done.
查一下，这就像德国间歇训练一样。
It is based on very definite physiological events, like this is what the heart does.
它基于非常明确的生理事件，就像心脏所做的那样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
This is what we're trying to do with the heart.
这就是我们用心去做的事情。
And instead of inventing some things that simply trash the body for no reason whatsoever.
而不是发明一些无缘无故地破坏身体的东西。
And part of the problem also, Andrew, is it's very easy to get misled by quick gains.
安德鲁，问题的一部分还在于，很容易被快速收益所误导。
And it happens in strength world and in endurance world.
它发生在力量世界和耐力世界。
Let's remember the years when you and I and every other male listener bench pressed their max once a week.
让我们记住那些年，你和我以及其他所有男性听众每周都达到最大一次。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
You're strong.
你很坚强。
Next week, you're stronger.
下周，你会变得更坚强。
Third week, you're stronger.
第三周，你变得更强了。
Like you're doing the math.
就像你在做数学一样。
Like, okay, well, I should be setting the national record by Christmas and maybe if I go into the worlds, by summer.
就像，好吧，好吧，我应该在圣诞节之前创造全国纪录，如果我进入世界赛，也许在夏天之前。
And then at six weeks, you're done.
然后六周后，你就完成了。
And for experienced athletes, it happens sooner, like after three weeks.
对于经验丰富的运动员来说，这种情况发生得更快，比如三周后。
The same thing with endurance.
耐力也是如此。
When you start doing glycolytic work, when you start redlining your heart rate and increasing the acidity, your performance jumps so quickly.
当您开始进行糖酵解工作时，当您开始调整心率并增加酸度时，您的表现会飞跃得如此之快。
It's very contagious.
它非常具有传染性。
It's like, oh.
就好像，哦。
Not contagious, pardon me.
不会传染，请见谅。
It's very exciting.
这非常令人兴奋。
And you think that you're going to keep going forever, but you really absolutely will not.
你认为你会永远继续下去，但你真的绝对不会。
So if you want to train your heart, a good way of doing that is steady state work.
因此，如果你想训练你的心脏，一个好的方法就是稳态训练。
If you decide to do some sort of intermittent work, there are several different ways.
如果您决定进行某种间歇性工作，有几种不同的方法。
One is intermittent exercise that's more of a repeat in nature, not interval, which is very bizarre to people.
一种是间歇性运动，本质上更多的是重复，而不是间隔，这对人们来说很奇怪。
Let's say that you go moderately hard for 10 seconds, you go easy for 10 seconds, and you do this for 30 to 60 minutes.
假设您中等强度地进行 10 秒，轻松地进行 10 秒，然后持续 30 到 60 分钟。
Imagine doing that.
想象一下这样做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Phew.
唷。
That's good work.
这是很好的工作。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
It is good work, but you know what would be shocking to you?
这是很好的工作，但你知道什么会让你感到震惊吗？
That you're not going to produce that much acid or you're not going to redline your heart rate.
你不会产生那么多的酸，或者你不会改变你的心率。
Better would be like 10 seconds of work, 20 seconds of rest.
最好是工作 10 秒，休息 20 秒。
That would be fascinating research that Swedes did back in the '50s and '60s on that.
瑞典人早在 50 年代和 60 年代就对此进行了一项令人着迷的研究。
It's amazing.
太棒了。
If you keep the work periods short, you're able to not produce a lot of acid, but just go very hard.
如果你的工作时间很短，你就不会产生大量的酸，但会非常努力。
And you're going to be able to train your heart and your lungs in this manner, too.
您也将能够以这种方式训练您的心脏和肺部。
And you also have peripheral adaptations in the muscles, mitochondria, and so on, vascularity, so some capillarization happening, too.
肌肉、线粒体等血管也有外周适应，因此也会发生一些毛细血管化。
But you know what's also interesting?
但你知道什么也很有趣吗？
There's one particular type of, I hate the fact that it falls onto the high intensity interval training umbrella because it's not.
有一种特殊类型，我讨厌它落在高强度间歇训练伞上，因为它不是。
Because everything that sounds like HIIT, it's not good to me because it's just made up label.
因为所有听起来像 HIIT 的东西对我来说都不好，因为它只是虚构的标签。
But there's one type of training that delivers great benefits to your cardiorespiratory system and at the same time, it also does that for your mitochondria and even builds muscle in the same time.
但有一种训练可以为您的心肺系统带来巨大好处，同时也可以为您的线粒体带来好处，甚至可以同时增强肌肉。
In track, it is called glycolytic power repeats.
在轨道上，它被称为糖酵解功率重复。
And in the last 20 years, there were several good papers that were done on that.
在过去的 20 年里，有几篇关于这方面的优秀论文。
Dybala, Burmaster, I think.
我想是迪巴拉，布尔马斯特。
Pardon me if I'm mispronouncing their names.
如果我读错了他们的名字，请原谅我。
But pretty much you do a Wingate, like a 30 seconds of hard exercise followed by approximately five minutes of rest, and you repeat it several times.
但基本上你会做温盖特训练，比如 30 秒的剧烈运动，然后休息大约 5 分钟，然后重复几次。
Here's what's unique about this type of method.
以下是此类方法的独特之处。
It gets your heart rate up to about that 85, 90% or something.
它可以让你的心率达到 85%、90% 左右。
Then you're going to walk it off after that.
然后你就可以把它走开。
So you are going to get adaptations for your heart.
所以你的心脏将会得到适应。
It's not the most effective way, but for healthy people, it's a healthy way and it's a very efficient way.
这不是最有效的方法，但是对于健康的人来说，这是一个健康的方法，也是一个非常有效的方法。
At the same time, we'll discuss later what happens on the mitochondria level.
同时，我们稍后将讨论线粒体水平上发生的情况。
But also what's interesting, you're also likely to build some muscle as well.
但有趣的是，你也可能会锻炼一些肌肉。
And typically, there is the conflict, which we're getting to this point about strength versus endurance.
通常情况下，会存在冲突，我们现在讨论的是力量与耐力之间的冲突。
Typically, there's a conflict of strength versus endurance because if you're looking in the mTOR on one side, AMPK on the other side, things seem to be like, okay, this is pulling one way, this is pulling the other way.
通常情况下，力量与耐力之间存在冲突，因为如果你观察一侧的 mTOR，另一侧的 AMPK，情况似乎是这样的，好吧，这是向一侧拉动，这是向另一侧拉动。
But somehow, this particular load, while promoting peripheral and central endurance, endurance at least in the fast and intermediate fibers, also does promote muscle growth
但不知何故，这种特殊的负荷在促进外周和中枢耐力（至少在快速和中速纤维中的耐力）的同时，也确实促进了肌肉生长
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
And what sort of exercise?
什么样的运动？
This is not sprints.
这不是冲刺。
This would be kettlebell swings, for instance.
例如，这就是壶铃摆动。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
In the studies that were done, they used Wingate, they cycled.
在所做的研究中，他们使用了 Wingate，他们骑自行车。
Sprinting, if you are going uphill, you could certainly do that.
冲刺，如果你要上坡，你当然可以这样做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because this 30 seconds is hard.
因为这30秒很难。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're pushing.
你在推动。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
You're pushing.
你在推动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Going in a track, it's too easy to get something messed up.
走在轨道上，很容易把事情搞砸。
So going uphill, you can do that.
所以上坡时，你可以这样做。
We do it with kettlebells.
我们用壶铃来做。
We did this work in my first kettlebell school over 20 years ago, where we would do a set of, you take a heavy kettlebell, moderately heavy kettlebell.
20多年前，我们在我的第一所壶铃学校做过这项工作，在那里我们会做一组，你拿一个重壶铃，中等重量的壶铃。
For you or me, it would be like a 70-pounder.
对于你或我来说，这就像一门 70 磅的炮。
And we would snatch it really hard for a set of 20, 25 reps.
我们会非常努力地做一组 20、25 次。
And then we just jog till the heart rate comes down, and then we take this leisurely power lifting rest.
然后我们就慢跑直到心率下降，然后我们就进行这种悠闲的举重休息。
And then we're going to do it again.
然后我们会再做一次。
And it's a fantastic way to promote various aspects of fitness.
这是促进健身各个方面的绝佳方式。
So you're going to get cardio respiratory endurance, you're going to get peripheral adaptations, endurance in the muscle, and you're also building muscle at the same time.
因此，您将获得心肺耐力，您将获得外周适应能力，肌肉耐力，同时您还将增强肌肉。
The reasons for that, here's the theory.
其原因如下，理论如下。
Again, all the conversations we have about this is what happens in the muscle, all these are theories.
再说一次，我们所有关于这个的对话都是肌肉中发生的事情，所有这些都是理论。
We know pretty much if we do X, we're going to get Z, whatever, or Y, some kind of result at this point, but we may not necessarily know for sure.
我们非常清楚，如果我们做 X，我们将会得到 Z，无论如何，或者 Y，此时的某种结果，但我们可能不一定知道。
So the following is another one of the theories, but it's another good credible one.
因此，以下是另一种理论，但它是另一种可靠的理论。
So this is Professor Viktor Sulianav.
这是维克托·苏利亚纳夫教授。
So according to him, the preconditions for muscle growth, in addition to the obvious food and things and hormones.
所以根据他的说法，肌肉生长的先决条件，除了明显的食物和东西以及激素之外。
So when you reach a certain level of acidosis, only a certain level of acidosis, not necessarily very high, that those hydrogen ions will make the membrane permeable to the hormones, so they're going to enter and go into the nucleus and start doing their job.
因此，当你达到一定程度的酸中毒时，只有一定程度的酸中毒，不一定很高，那些氢离子将使细胞膜对激素具有渗透性，因此它们将进入细胞核并开始发挥作用。
So that's one of the part of the explanation.
这是解释的一部分。
Then at the same time, also the free creatine, when creatine phosphate, that hot fuel gets burnt off, that's also anabolic for one reason or another.
与此同时，当磷酸肌酸这种热燃料被烧掉时，游离肌酸也会因某种原因而被合成代谢。
So there are some explanations.
所以有一些解释。
Whether that's how it is or not, I don't know, but the fact is doing a hard 30, 40-second set followed by a very generous rest, we're talking about five, 10 minutes, and repeating it five times, possibly more, it works very well.
不管是不是这样，我不知道，但事实是做一组30、40秒的艰苦训练，然后进行非常充分的休息，我们谈论的是5、10分钟，然后重复五次，可能更多，效果非常好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Maui Nui Venison.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 Maui Nui Venison。
Maui Nui Venison is the most nutrient-dense and delicious red meat available.
毛伊努伊鹿肉是营养最丰富、最美味的红肉。
Now, I've spoken before on this podcast with several expert guests on nutrition about the fact that most of us should be getting one gram of quality protein per pound of body weight every single day.
现在，我之前在这个播客上与几位营养学专家嘉宾谈到过这样一个事实：我们大多数人应该每天每磅体重摄入一克优质蛋白质。
Now, not only does that protein provide critical building blocks for things like muscle repair and synthesis, but also for your overall metabolism and health.
现在，这种蛋白质不仅为肌肉修复和合成等功能提供了关键的组成部分，而且还为您的整体新陈代谢和健康提供了关键的组成部分。
Eating enough quality protein each day is also a terrific way to stave off hunger and reduce sugar cravings.
每天吃足够的优质蛋白质也是消除饥饿和减少对糖的渴望的好方法。
One of the key things, however, is to make sure that you get enough quality protein without ingesting too many calories.
然而，关键的事情之一是确保您获得足够的优质蛋白质而不摄入过多的卡路里。
Maui Nui Venison has an extremely high quality protein per calorie ratio, so that getting one gram of protein per pound of body weight is both easy and doesn't cause you to ingest an excess of calories.
毛伊努伊鹿肉具有极高的优质蛋白质每卡路里比例，因此每磅体重获取一克蛋白质既容易又不会导致您摄入过量的卡路里。
Also, Maui Nui Venison is extremely delicious.
此外，毛伊努伊鹿肉也非常美味。
They have venison steaks, ground venison, and venison bone broth.
他们有鹿肉排、鹿肉末和鹿骨汤。
They also have a terrific venison jerky that's super convenient.
他们还有很棒的鹿肉干，超级方便。
I probably eat a Maui Nui Venison burger pretty much every day, and I'll swap that for a Maui Nui steak every once in a while, and I'll snack on the jerky whenever I need extra protein and I don't have time for a full meal.
我可能几乎每天都会吃毛伊努伊鹿肉汉堡，每隔一段时间我就会把它换成毛伊努伊牛排，每当我需要额外的蛋白质而没有时间吃正餐时，我就会吃肉干。
Right now, Maui Nui is offering Huberman Podcast listeners a limited collection of my favorite cuts of venison and their products.
现在，毛伊努伊岛正在为 Huberman 播客听众提供我最喜欢的鹿肉及其产品的限量收藏。
It's perfect for anyone looking to improve their diet with delicious high-quality protein.
对于那些希望通过美味的优质蛋白质来改善饮食的人来说，它是完美的选择。
Supplies are limited, so make sure to go to mauinuivenison.com/huberman to get access to this high-quality venison today.
供应有限，因此请务必立即访问 mauinuivenison.com/huberman 获取这种高品质鹿肉。
Again, that's mauinuivenison.com/huberman.
同样，这是 mauinuivenison.com/huberman。
What should I do during my rest periods?
休息期间我应该做什么？
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
All right.
好吧。
Well, first of all, whenever your heart rate is high, the very first thing is to not to suddenly stop.
嗯，首先，当你的心率很高时，第一件事就是不要突然停止。
Because there are one-way valves in the veins that whenever you contract the muscles of the legs, they help to milk the blood back through to the heart, so basically, they reduce the stress on the heart.
因为静脉中有单向瓣膜，每当你收缩腿部肌肉时，它们就会帮助将血液回流到心脏，所以基本上，它们会减轻心脏的压力。
So just walk it off first, the first step.
所以先走开，第一步。
If your heart rate was high.
如果你的心率很高。
Then the second thing is you want to do exercises.
然后第二件事是你想做练习。
You want to do relaxation, myorelaxation, muscle relaxation exercise.
你想做放松、肌肉放松、肌肉放松运动。
What they are is if you watch boxers, how they shake off their shoulders and drop their hands and do things like that.
如果你观察拳击手，就会发现他们是如何甩开肩膀、放下双手，做类似的事情。
These exercises go back to the '30s.
这些练习可以追溯到 30 年代。
Soviets used them since the '30s, and they used them with elite athletes, kids in grade schools, and everybody.
苏联人从 30 年代起就开始使用它们，他们将它们用于精英运动员、小学孩子和每个人。
So these exercises serve several functions.
因此，这些练习有多种功能。
One is if you are doing an exercise that is strength exercise in nature, some of the cross bridges are stuck pretty much.
其一是，如果您正在进行本质上是力量锻炼的锻炼，则一些横桥会被卡住。
And so your muscle is thixotropic.
所以你的肌肉是触变性的。
It's like gel.
就像凝胶一样。
So by moving your muscle in a passive manner, you get it unstuck.
因此，通过以被动的方式移动你的肌肉，你就能摆脱困境。
And so you restore circulation, obviously.
显然，你可以恢复血液循环。
And the other reason is, again, control of muscular tension is very important.
另一个原因是，控制肌肉张力非常重要。
It's important to learn how to contract the muscle for strength.
学习如何收缩肌肉以获得力量很重要。
It's very important how to relax for speed, for endurance, just for a happy life.
为了速度，为了耐力，为了幸福的生活，如何放松是非常重要的。
If you look at the best sprinters, note how relaxed their faces are when they run, their jaws.
如果你观察最优秀的短跑运动员，请注意他们跑步时的脸部和下巴是多么放松。
Relax how relaxed their necks are.
放松他们的脖子是多么放松。
So relaxation is something that's practiced just like tension.
所以放松就像紧张一样需要练习。
So regardless of what exercise that you just did, shaking off, we call this fast and loose drills, shake it like passive, like turn your muscles to fat.
所以不管你刚刚做了什么运动，抖掉，我们称之为快松练习，像被动一样抖掉它，就像把你的肌肉变成脂肪一样。
So you want to do this for a little bit.
所以你想做一点。
Then after that, it depends how long is your rest.
然后就看你休息多久了。
And depends what exactly that you're doing.
取决于你到底在做什么。
In some extreme examples, let's say that you're a sprinter.
在一些极端的例子中，假设您是一名短跑运动员。
Remember we talked like doing sprinter repeats with, let's say, 100 meters and then 15 minutes.
请记住，我们谈论的方式就像短跑运动员重复跑一样，比方说，先跑 100 米，然后跑 15 分钟。
You think, "Wow, sounds like a great training session." Well, the problem is These guys do need these 15 minutes to get the acid out of the system and have some other functions to recover, but after a couple of minutes, the CNS excitability goes down.
你会想，“哇，听起来真是一次很棒的训练。”好吧，问题是这些人确实需要这 15 分钟来排出系统中的酸，并恢复一些其他功能，但几分钟后，中枢神经系统的兴奋性就会下降。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
So what the Soviets figured out back in the '40s still is what you do then after you walked it off, after you shook it off, you here and there, you insert some very kind of light and easy hops or whatever using the same muscle groups.
所以苏联人在 40 年代的想法仍然是，在你走开之后，在你摆脱它之后，你在这里和那里，你插入一些非常轻且容易的跳跃或任何使用相同肌肉群的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
So these poor athletes really have a complicated rest protocol.
所以这些可怜的运动员确实有一个复杂的休息方案。
There's really no rest for the wicked there.
那里的恶人确实没有休息的地方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
If you are a lifter who's taking very long rest periods in between, let's say you take those 10 minutes, then after your heart rate is down and after you shook off and after you walked a little, you can just sit down.
如果你是一名举重运动员，中间休息时间很长，假设你休息了 10 分钟，那么当你的心率下降、摆脱束缚、走了一会儿之后，你就可以坐下来了。
You can do whatever you want.
你可以做任何你想做的事。
Do not sit a slouch because obviously Stu McGill explained why that's not a good idea.
不要无精打采地坐着，因为显然斯图·麦吉尔解释了为什么这不是一个好主意。
And speaking of slouching, one reason that runners get their backs jacked up after running or some endurance event is again, they go into their knees and they get into that collapsed posture and their discs are really pliable and warm after the run, and then suddenly put them into flexion and they get messed up.
说到弯腰驼背，跑步者在跑步或某些耐力赛后背部挺起的原因之一是，他们会屈膝，进入那种塌陷的姿势，他们的椎间盘在跑步后非常柔韧和温暖，然后突然让他们弯曲，他们就会变得一团糟。
So yeah, you also got to, like you point out, to watch our posture.
所以，是的，就像你指出的那样，你还必须注意我们的姿势。
But you really got to watch your posture during recovery because you slump between your sets of squats and then you could blow something out right there.
但在恢复过程中你真的必须注意你的姿势，因为你在深蹲之间会倒下，然后你可能会在那里吹出一些东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
I used to think that I would have this recurring sort of lower back hip thing that I finally feel is under control, and I used to think that it correlated with travel and something about maybe not sleeping as well and traveling perhaps.
我曾经认为我会出现这种反复出现的下背部臀部问题，我终于觉得它得到了控制，而且我曾经认为它与旅行以及可能睡眠质量不佳和旅行有关。
But what I've noticed is even if I just sit too much after training-
但我注意到即使我在训练后坐得太多-
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
my legs hard, I end up with this back issue.
我的腿很硬，最终导致了背部问题。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So just moving to a standing desk configuration after training legs, irrespective of travel, has really helped.
因此，无论旅行如何，在训练腿部后转向站立式办公桌配置确实很有帮助。
And I think, nowadays there's all this excitement about walking.
我认为，如今步行令人兴奋。
I don't know how much time you spend on social media, but walking's the new thing for 2024.
我不知道你在社交媒体上花费了多少时间，但步行将成为 2024 年的新事物。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Per good.
每好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People discovered walking-
人们发现步行——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
I'm all for it
我完全赞成
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
can lower-
可以降低-
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Okay
好的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
post-meal blood glucose.
餐后血糖。
I mean all-
我的意思是所有-
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
stuff that was-
那是——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Very healthy, of course
当然非常健康
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that's intuitive, great thing to do.
这是很直观的、很棒的事情。
We'll see what happens in 2025 with the next thing that is, right?
我们将看看 2025 年会发生什么，对吗？
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
What's the next hot thing?
下一个热点是什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm a fan of walking, but in no small part because it just feels like it loosens up everything after training and I like to train early in the day if possible.
我很喜欢散步，但在很大程度上是因为它感觉训练后一切都放松了，如果可能的话，我喜欢在一天的早些时候进行训练。
And I notice a dramatic reduction in kind of aches and-
我注意到疼痛明显减轻了，而且——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Great
太棒了
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and strains as a function of just adding some walks.
和应变作为仅添加一些行走的函数。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Well, also the other thing you can do, I remember when I watched your podcast with Stu McGill, you mentioned that the upward-facing dog, cobra helps you, right?
好吧，还有你可以做的另一件事，我记得当我和 Stu McGill 一起观看你的播客时，你提到向上的狗眼镜蛇可以帮助你，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Bringing yourself in extension.
让自己延伸。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Anything into extension.
任何东西都可以延伸。
Yeah.
是的。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
So for people for whom that works, you can just lie on the floor on your elbows and just read a book.
因此，对于那些适合这种方法的人来说，你可以用手肘躺在地板上看书。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
So for example, at StrongFirst courses, when people do exercise and then we teach them, so we have several authorized postures.
例如，在 StrongFirst 课程中，当人们进行锻炼时，我们会教他们，所以我们有几种授权的姿势。
So you either have to sit ramrod straight, you can sit in a lotus or seiza or something like that, or you can half kneel still upright-
所以你要么必须挺直地坐，你可以坐在莲花或正座或类似的东西上，或者你可以半跪着直立——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
...
...
or you can lie on your stomach.
或者你可以趴着。
So we do not allow this collapsed posture because this is a great way to get hurt.
所以我们不允许这种倒下的姿势，因为这是一种很容易受伤的方式。
Plus, you look like a slacker.
另外，你看起来像个懒鬼。
When you're a slacker, mentally you're not going to be focused on whatever you're supposed to be doing.
当你是一个懒鬼时，你的精神上就不会专注于你应该做的事情。
So I think that's a good idea.
所以我认为这是一个好主意。
And to bring us back to, do you want to talk a little bit about the peripheral adaptations from endurance?
让我们回到，你想谈谈耐力的外围适应吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Please.
请。
Yeah.
是的。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Okay.
好的。
And then maybe we can talk about what should people do who are not athletes.
然后也许我们可以讨论非运动员应该做什么。
So a much bigger thing than the VO2 max is the adaptations, the ability of your muscles to extract and use the oxygen.
因此，比最大摄氧量更重要的是适应性，即肌肉提取和使用氧气的能力。
So this, again, called this revolution, anti-glycolytic revolution, comes from also Yurii Verkhoshansky.
因此，这场革命，又称为抗糖酵解革命，也来自尤里·韦尔霍尚斯基。
Again, he's known as the father of plyometrics, but he's so much more than that.
他再次被称为增强式训练之父，但他的意义远不止于此。
And back in 1980, he looked at the typical endurance training protocols and he says, "Okay, everybody's trying to push the athlete to the greatest degree of discomfort and make the athlete accustomed to that degree of discomfort." And he says, "That's just wrong.
早在 1980 年，他研究了典型的耐力训练方案，他说：“好吧，每个人都在努力让运动员感到最大程度的不适，并让运动员习惯这种程度的不适。”他说：“这是错误的。
Instead, we need to figure out how to postpone the fatigue and how to fight the mechanisms that produce the fatigue." And he says glycolysis and aerobic glycolysis is the primary cause of that.
相反，我们需要弄清楚如何推迟疲劳以及如何对抗产生疲劳的机制。”他说糖酵解和有氧糖酵解是造成这种情况的主要原因。
We could split a lot of hairs whether it's the glycolysis itself or it's the acid coming from ATP breakdown or whether it's non-organic phosphate or whatever, but whatever it is, it always happens when the acidosis is running high, when acid becomes high.
无论是糖酵解本身还是 ATP 分解产生的酸，或者是非有机磷酸盐还是其他什么，我们都可能会分心，但无论是什么，它总是在酸中毒高时发生，当酸变高时。
So that doesn't really matter which exact factor is.
所以确切的因素是什么并不重要。
So he figured out you need to promote aerobic metabolism in the working muscle fibers.
所以他发现你需要促进工作肌纤维的有氧代谢。
So he decided that endurance training for high-level athletes and people who are not athletes, it will apply to you as well, has to be specific.
所以他决定，针对高水平运动员和非运动员的耐力训练也适用于你，而且必须是具体的。
That's exactly why I like that marathon runner who joined the MMA class and then sucking wind.
这就是为什么我喜欢那个参加MMA班然后吸风的马拉松运动员。
His endurance is totally not specific.
他的忍耐力完全不具体。
Here's an example of specific endurance is where you're using the same muscle fibers in your sport and in a mode that's consistent with that sport.
这是特定耐力的一个例子，即您在运动中使用相同的肌肉纤维，并以与该运动一致的模式。
So Verkhoshansky would have people like skiers, for example, do this very long push-off on the ski and then glide.
因此，维尔霍尚斯基会让像滑雪者这样的人在滑雪板上做很长的推力，然后滑行。
Push off and glide.
推开并滑行。
And yeah, Sulianav, who came after him.
是的，苏利亚纳夫（Sulianav）紧随其后。
So an example of that, you have this really powerful contraction of the muscles that are used in your sport, and then there's that relaxation during which the muscle recovers its myoglobin oxygen.
举个例子，你在运动中使用的肌肉会产生非常强大的收缩，然后放松，在此期间肌肉恢复肌红蛋白氧气。
There's a small amount of oxygen in the muscle, and it requires that creatine phosphate fuel that is used for that short term.
肌肉中有少量氧气，需要短期使用磷酸肌酸作为燃料。
So pretty much instead of relying on that acid-producing metabolism, glycolytic metabolism that You start using, on one hand, to use lifter's metabolism.
因此，一方面，您不再依赖产酸代谢、糖酵解代谢，而是利用举重者的新陈代谢。
Creatine phosphate, that's what fuels a set of three reps.
磷酸肌酸，为一组三次重复提供能量。
And on the other, you're using this marathon runner's aerobic metabolism.
另一方面，你正在利用这位马拉松运动员的有氧代谢。
So you're putting glycolysis in a vice.
所以你把糖酵解变成了一种恶习。
And a great example of that comes from, Verkhoshansky is not the only one who came up with this idea.
一个很好的例子来自维尔霍尚斯基并不是唯一提出这个想法的人。
It's been reinvented by others.
它已被其他人重新发明。
So in boxing, Leon Spinks.
所以在拳击界，莱昂·斯平克斯。
To the viewers who don't know who he is, Leon Spinks was a professional boxing world champion.
对于不知道他是谁的观众来说，莱昂·斯平克斯是一位职业拳击世界冠军。
And he defeated Muhammad Ali amongst others.
他击败了穆罕默德·阿里等人。
So he's a great champion.
所以他是一位伟大的冠军。
And he hired Arthur Lydiard, who was a great running coach from New Zealand, to work on his conditioning.
他还聘请了来自新西兰的优秀跑步教练阿瑟·利迪亚德（Arthur Lydiard）来训练他的体能训练。
And Lydiard had him do work on the heavy bag for an hour and a half to two hours non-stop.
利迪亚德让他不间断地处理这个沉重的袋子一个半小时到两个小时。
And he says, "No, of course you're not going all out.
他说：“不，你当然不会全力以赴。
Sometimes harder, but you're definitely not tapping the bag.
有时会更困难，但你绝对不会敲击袋子。
You're not shadow boxing." And so if you're putting your muscle fibers in a very specific metabolic window and do it over and over and over, they start adapting to it.
你不是太极拳。”因此，如果你将肌肉纤维置于一个非常特定的代谢窗口中，并一遍又一遍地这样做，它们就会开始适应它。
Fast fibers start developing mitochondria.
快纤维开始发育线粒体。
Fast fibers start developing capillaries.
快速纤维开始发育毛细血管。
Fast fibers don't lose their strength, but they start developing the plumbing and the ability to use the oxidative system to recover rapidly.
快速纤维不会失去其强度，但它们开始发展管道和利用氧化系统快速恢复的能力。
But going back to, again, this larger periodization idea is when you start with a new stimulus, your body's highly reactive or the resistance is low, you cannot take much of it.
但再次回到这个更大的分期理念，当你开始接受新的刺激时，你的身体反应性很高或抵抗力很低，你就无法承受太多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Then that teeter-totter goes the other way.
然后跷跷板就朝相反的方向发展了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
So you have to figure out how to restore that reactivity.
所以你必须弄清楚如何恢复这种反应性。
And different training systems do it differently.
不同的培训系统的做法也不同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
So an example of the American powerlifting system, you basically go lighter, start over with a light weight.
以美国举重系统为例，你基本上会变轻，从轻重量开始。
So you decondition yourself purposefully.
所以你有目的地去调理自己。
Like two steps forward, one step back.
就像前进两步，后退一步。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Another example would be to use what the Soviets call specialized variety.
另一个例子是使用苏联人所说的特殊品种。
And this is something that you could see in the Soviet weightlifting system with Medvedev and Alexei Medvedev, one of the scientists and coaches, and also the Westside Barbell powerlifting club.
这是你可以在苏联举重系统中看到的东西，包括梅德韦杰夫和科学家兼教练之一阿列克谢·梅德韦杰夫，以及西区杠铃举重俱乐部。
So specialized variety, as opposed to random variety, is when you have the same lift and with just very slight modifications.
与随机变化相反，专业变化是指具有相同的升力并且仅进行非常细微的修改。
So the motor program, the intention stays the same.
所以运动计划的意图保持不变。
But again, imagine that instead of deadlifting from the platform, you're deadlifting standing off a plate.
但再次想象一下，你不是从平台上硬拉，而是站在盘子上硬拉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
So just slightly increase the range of motion, but you're still doing the same thing.
因此，只需稍微增加运动范围，但你仍然在做同样的事情。
Or imagine that you bring your grip in the bench press a couple of inches in.
或者想象一下，你将卧推的握力往前拉几英寸。
Or imagine that you use a block, this is a popular exercise in powerlifting.
或者想象一下你使用一个木块，这是举重中流行的练习。
Imagine putting a brick on your chest, something the size of a brick, lowering it to that, pausing and pressing back to work that very specific sticking point.
想象一下，在你的胸口放一块砖头，一块砖头大小的东西，将其降低到那个位置，暂停并向后压，以解决那个非常具体的症结点。
So you're still benching.
所以你还在板凳上。
So what you're doing is you're resolving this conflict between accommodation and specificity.
所以你要做的就是解决适应性和特殊性之间的冲突。
And on one hand it's novel, but on the other hand it's really...
一方面它很新颖，但另一方面它真的......
And it's like same but different.
它就像相同但又不同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
It's a very good tactic.
这是一个非常好的策略。
It requires the knowledge of the iron game.
它需要铁杆游戏的知识。
Because if you go from the bench press to the military press or dips, you might see improvement, or might not, because that's not specialized variety anymore.
因为如果你从卧推转向军事推举或臂屈伸，你可能会看到进步，也可能不会，因为那不再是专门的品种了。
But if you look at Medvedev, Alexei Medvedev, when he coached the national team.
但如果你看看梅德韦杰夫，阿列克谢·梅德韦杰夫，当他执教国家队时。
For the clean and jerk and snatch, for the two competitive lifts, they had 100 variations.
对于挺举和抓举，两个竞技举重项目有 100 种变化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
But all these variations were like, okay, so now we're snatching from hang.
但所有这些变化都像是，好吧，所以现在我们正在从悬挂中抢夺。
Now we're snatching from blocks.
现在我们正在从块中抢夺。
Now we're jerking from the rack.
现在我们正从架子上猛地跳下来。
Do you see what I mean?
你明白我的意思吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
This reminds me of this humorous book about Scandinavians written by a Scandinavian explaining how very different different Scandinavians are.
这让我想起一本由斯堪的纳维亚人写的关于斯堪的纳维亚人的幽默书，解释了斯堪的纳维亚人有多么不同。
And so this book has pictures of the same guy wearing different sweater.
所以这本书里有同一个人穿着不同毛衣的照片。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sounds about right.
听起来不错。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
So yeah.
所以是的。
That's-
那是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My Scandinavian relatives will chuckle at that.
我的斯堪的纳维亚亲戚会对此嗤之以鼻。
Again, I'm not trying to point out the ills of the fitness culture, but I feel like if I were to put up on a wall the two or three things that have caused the most confusion and reduction in people's potential results from fitness would be seeking the pump as its own thing-
再说一次，我并不是想指出健身文化的弊病，但我觉得如果我把两三件事挂在墙上，最令人困惑和减少人们健身潜在效果的事情就是把泵当作自己的事情——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and seeking soreness as its own thing.
并把疼痛当作自己的事。
And then confusing panting hard and sweating a lot with intensity.
然后将气喘吁吁和大量出汗与强度混淆。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I feel like those three things, people think, "I had a great workout," or, "My new trainer is...
我觉得这三件事，人们会想，“我锻炼得很好”，或者“我的新教练......
I finished just completely depleted." And then these are the same people that are complaining about an injury or they quit-
我已经完全筋疲力尽了。”然后这些人要么抱怨受伤，要么退出——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or they don't have the motivation because they're not taking whatever pre-workout is required to generate that kind of, quote-unquote, intensity.
或者他们没有动力，因为他们没有采取任何锻炼前所需的措施来产生那种强度。
I'm not looking for agreement, but would you agree or disagree?
我不是在寻求共识，但你同意还是不同意？
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
I agree.
我同意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then maybe by comparison we could sort of throw up on the wall the things that we should be seeking when we train as opposed to these kind of-
然后相比之下，也许我们可以把我们训练时应该寻找的东西扔到墙上，而不是这些——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
You know what?
你知道吗？
Before I answer this question, since we're talking about the peripheral adaptations-
在回答这个问题之前，我们讨论的是周边适配——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
...
...
you made a great point about seeking pump.
你在寻求泵方面提出了一个很好的观点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
I'm going to give you a great example how when not seeking pump is going to deliver great adaptation for you.
我将给你一个很好的例子，如何在不寻求泵的情况下为你带来很好的适应。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
So do you remember that idea of punching the bag for an hour, let's say, or two hours?
那么，您还记得打沙袋一个小时，或者两个小时的想法吗？
That's how that promotes mitochondrial and endurance development in the fast-twitch fibers.
这就是促进快肌纤维线粒体和耐力发育的方式。
That can also be done with strength exercises as well for wrestlers and MMA fighters.
对于摔跤手和综合格斗选手来说，这也可以通过力量练习来完成。
So you can do the bench press.
这样你就可以做卧推了。
You can do bench press and develop endurance in your fast-twitch fibers.
您可以进行卧推并增强快肌纤维的耐力。
The nature of endurance is very peculiar.
忍耐的本质是非常奇特的。
In team sports, there's a term repeat sprint ability.
在团队运动中，有一个术语“重复冲刺能力”。
So repeat sprint ability means that, let's say, that you sprint for 20 meters, rest for less than a minute, sprint for another 20.
因此，重复冲刺能力意味着，比方说，你冲刺 20 米，休息不到一分钟，然后再冲刺 20 米。
Just something like that.
只是类似的事情。
So sprint, rest, sprint, rest.
所以冲刺，休息，冲刺，休息。
Which reflects the nature of a team sport, football, soccer, and so on.
这反映了团队运动、橄榄球、英式足球等的本质。
It's totally different from running 400 meters around the track.
这和绕跑道跑400米完全不同。
In strength endurance, it's the same thing.
在力量耐力方面，也是一样的。
NFL combine, it's a fine test, whatever.
NFL 联合赛，无论如何，这是一个很好的测试。
It's a nice bodybuilding exercise, good pump.
这是一项很好的健身运动，很好的泵感。
But on the field, you're not doing 30 reps.
但在现场，你并没有做 30 次。
You're doing one rep, and then a little bit later, you're going to do another rep.
你正在做一次代表，然后稍后，你将做另一次代表。
So your conditioning for fast-twitch fibers can be structured in the same manner.
因此，您对快肌纤维的调节可以以相同的方式构建。
So there's Russian research, a researcher named Bavikin.
还有俄罗斯的研究，一位名叫巴维金的研究人员。
He put his several groups of athletes in different protocols.
他将他的几组运动员安排在不同的方案中。
So one of them was doing the typical high intensity, whatever, circuit training smoker.
所以其中一个人正在进行典型的高强度循环训练吸烟者。
So you take 70% of your one-rep max and you do this for 30 seconds and you go push hard and then you do the next one and very typical.
因此，你需要完成一次最大重复次数的 70%，持续 30 秒，然后用力推动，然后再做下一次，这是非常典型的做法。
Then the other group, anti-glycolytic group, these athletes would lift the same 70% one-rep max for three reps.
然后另一组，即抗糖酵解组，这些运动员将在 3 次重复中举起相同的 70% 的单次最大重量。
They do one exercise, second exercise, third exercise, rest for one minute, do it again and again and again.
他们做一个动作，第二个动作，第三个动作，休息一分钟，一遍又一遍地做。
So to the listeners, 70 rep max, an average athlete can probably crank out about 12 reps with it.
因此，对于听众来说，最多重复 70 次，一名普通运动员可能可以完成大约 12 次重复。
A fighter is probably going to crank out 20-some reps with that easily.
一名拳击手可能会轻松地完成 20 多次这样的动作。
So they only do three reps.
所以他们只做了三遍。
And so three reps, another exercise, another exercise, rest for one minute, do it over and over and over.
所以重复三遍，再做一次练习，再做一次练习，休息一分钟，一遍又一遍地做。
And the end result was really fascinating, the outcome.
最终的结果真的很令人着迷。
There is one particular test discovered by the same researcher that has the highest correlation in competitive performance for MMA fighters.
同一位研究人员发现了一项特殊测试，该测试与综合格斗选手的竞技表现具有最高的相关性。
So this test was R 0.888.
所以这个测试的 R 是 0.888。
It's very, very high.
这是非常非常高的。
And very interesting thing what it is, it's the rate of heart rate recovery after an all-out set with 70% one-rep max deadlift.
非常有趣的是，它是在全力以赴完成 70% 单次最大硬拉后的心率恢复率。
It's a hard set.
这是一个很难的组合。
It's brutal.
太残酷了。
Very, very brutal.
非常非常残酷。
Interestingly enough, the reps with 70% one-rep max correlation was not so good.
有趣的是，单次最大相关性为 70% 的次数并不那么好。
Even the deadlift strength was not so high.
就连硬拉强度也没有那么高。
But it's that recovery from that was very, very high.
但这是非常非常高的恢复。
So the group that did this anti-glycolytic work never did more than three reps, completely blew the traditional training group out of the water.
因此，进行这项抗糖酵解工作的小组从未进行超过三次的重复，完全击败了传统训练组。
Then in addition to that, they were able to bang out a lot more consecutive reps as well.
除此之外，他们还能够连续完成更多次数。
They weren't even training for that.
他们甚至没有为此进行训练。
Then after that, they also saw competitive better results in competition and so on and so forth.
然后在那之后，他们也看到了竞争中更好的成绩等等等等。
It's a great way to train because you're able to-- So imagine taking a weight that you can lift maybe 12 to 20 times and you lift it about three times.
这是一种很好的训练方式，因为你能够——所以想象一下，你可以举起一个可以举起 12 到 20 次的重物，然后你举起它大约 3 次。
Rest for a minute and do it again and again and again.
休息一分钟，然后一遍又一遍地重复。
This is very much like a blue-collar worker's day.
这很像蓝领工人的一天。
And you're not seeking pump whatsoever.
而且你并不是在寻找任何泵。
But as a result, you're going to develop that type of endurance, that repeat strength endurance that very much is applicable to most combat and team sports and also for the real life.
但结果是，你将发展那种类型的耐力，即重复力量耐力，这非常适用于大多数战斗和团队运动，也适用于现实生活。
Whenever you are moving furniture, you're not trying to, "Look, I'm going to try to get a pump.
每当你移动家具时，你不会试图说：“看，我要尝试去拿一个泵。
Let's see, get this piano up there and I'll get another one.
让我们想想，把这架钢琴搬到那里，我去买另一架。
Then we're going to rest for 20 minutes, then we're going to start over." No. Swedish work on occupational strength, they found that old and crafty and wily workers like loggers and others, they keep their efforts very brief and then they rest for a few seconds and do it over and over and over.
然后我们休息20分钟，然后重新开始。”不。瑞典人注重职业强度，他们发现像伐木工和其他人这样年老、狡猾、狡猾的工人，他们的努力非常短暂，然后休息几秒钟，一遍又一遍地重复。
So that intermittent nature of rest is very powerful.
因此间歇性休息的作用非常强大。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It seems like this is a repeating theme.
看来这是一个重复的主题。
And by the way, thank you for spelling that out.
顺便说一句，谢谢你把这一点说清楚。
So for people that perhaps want to try something like this, and I intend to, four exercises-
因此，对于那些可能想尝试这样的事情的人（我打算这样做），有四个练习 -
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Three
三
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
three exercises, excuse me, done each at roughly 70%-
三个练习，对不起，每个都完成了大约 70%-
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Correct
正确
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of your one repetition maximum.
您的一次重复次数上限。
So what you could do for about 12 repetitions, but you're only doing three repetitions.
所以你可以重复大约 12 次，但你只重复了 3 次。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Rest a minute in between exercises.
练习之间休息一分钟。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
And the rest active again.
其余的再次活跃起来。
Just walk around-
随便走走——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Walk around
四处走走
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
...
...
shake it off.
摆脱它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
And do this about 15 times possibly later.
以后可能再这样做 15 次。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
15 rounds.
15轮。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Up to 15 rounds.
最多 15 轮。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so this could be a Zercher squat, pull-up, dip, deadlift or something like that.
所以这可能是 Zercher 深蹲、引体向上、臂屈伸、硬拉或类似的动作。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe doing deadlift into Zercher squat.
也许可以用硬拉进行 Zercher 深蹲。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
I probably would not do the dead-- You used really good examples.
我可能不会做死人——你用了非常好的例子。
So this is a protocol that I did for a couple friends of mine for their high-level BJJ competition.
这是我为我的几个朋友参加高水平巴西柔术比赛制定的协议。
We did exactly that.
我们正是这么做的。
They did Zurchers, they did pull-ups on towels.
他们做了Zurchers，他们做了毛巾引体向上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
And more specific and more grip.
而且更具体、更有把握。
And they did the close grip bench press.
他们还做了窄距卧推。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
And the reason it's close, it doesn't put on quite as much mass, but it works the triceps really quite nicely.
它之所以接近，是因为它没有增加那么多的质量，但它对三头肌的锻炼效果非常好。
But you can even do it with one exercise.
但您甚至可以通过一项练习来完成。
Three reps, rest for a minute, three reps, rest for a minute, and so on.
重复三遍，休息一分钟，重复三遍，休息一分钟，以此类推。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How many times per week is one repeating that?
人们每周重复几次这样的事情？
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
You can repeat this three, four times a week easily.
您可以轻松地每周重复此三、四次。
But it depends on what else you do.
但这取决于你还做什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's going to-
它将会——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Twice a week is enough.
一周两次就够了。
Even twice a week is enough.
甚至每周两次就足够了。
And it fits your strength training regimen.
它适合您的力量训练方案。
It doesn't take away from your strength day.
它不会影响您的力量日。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
So it pretty much you can treat that as your light day for your strength for the same lifts.
因此，您几乎可以将其视为轻松的一天，以增强您的力量以进行相同的举重。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
And this is going to increase endurance, but is also going to increase strength somewhat.
这会增加耐力，但也会在一定程度上增加力量。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
It's going to increase strength somewhat.
实力也会有一定的提升。
In Bavikin's experiments, it definitely did, at least on fighters.
在巴维金的实验中，确实如此，至少在战斗机上如此。
But realize fighters typically are not that strong.
但要意识到战士通常没有那么强大。
So up to a point, it is going to increase your strength as well.
所以在某种程度上，它也会增强你的力量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
And at the very least, it's going to support your strength.
至少，它会支持你的力量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
And it's a great way to just perfect your technique, perfect your skill.
这是完善你的技术、完善你的技巧的好方法。
It's wonderful.
太棒了。
It's very meditative.
这是非常冥想的。
My colleague at StrongFirst, Brad Jones, he even just wrote a book about it, "Iron Cardio." Because he took a protocol, strength aerobics protocol like this Russian protocol developed by another one of my colleagues, Alexis Enard, another one of our instructors.
我在 StrongFirst 的同事布拉德·琼斯 (Brad Jones) 甚至刚刚写了一本关于此的书，《铁心有氧运动》(Iron Cardio)。因为他采取了一项协议，力量有氧运动协议，就像我的另一位同事亚历克西斯·埃纳德（Alexis Enard）（我们的另一位教练）开发的俄罗斯协议一样。
And he just used the whole system and people are loving it because Sorry, I'm going to go back from the beginning to Alexis Sanar.
他只是使用了整个系统，人们很喜欢它，因为抱歉，我要从头开始讲到 Alexis Sanar。
So he lives in France, and he was coaching some law enforcement personnel.
他住在法国，正在指导一些执法人员。
And they were on a stakeout where they absolutely had no ability to train normally, and they wanted to do something effective.
而他们在监视中，根本没有能力正常训练，他们想做一些有效的事情。
So he said, "Okay, take this kettlebell, and you keep it in your hotel room or wherever is your stakeout.
所以他说：“好吧，拿着这个壶铃，把它放在你的酒店房间或者任何你监视的地方。
Do one clean, one press, one front squat.
做一翻、一推举、一前蹲。
Put the kettlebell down, shake it up, one clean, one press, one squat, put it down." And like a metronome at a very rhythmical manner.
把壶铃放下，摇起来，一挺，一按，一蹲，放下。”就像节拍器一样，很有节奏。
You're not trying to breathe hard.
你并不是在努力呼吸。
You're not trying to get a pump.
你并不是想买一个泵。
With singles, you won't.
对于单身人士，你不会。
And you do this for about 30 minutes or whatever amount of time that you do.
你这样做大约 30 分钟或任何时间。
And it does develop that repeat strength endurance fantastically well.
它确实能很好地发展重复力量耐力。
There is additional secondary effect of some cardio because you're breathing in between pretty much.
一些有氧运动还会产生额外的副作用，因为您在运动之间需要大量呼吸。
Your heart is recovering.
你的心脏正在康复。
And you're not getting sore because you talked earlier about people seeking pump and seeking soreness.
而且你不会感到酸痛，因为你之前谈到人们寻求泵感和寻求酸痛。
One of the reasons soreness comes from is obviously a lot of eccentric contraction.
酸痛的原因之一显然是大量的离心收缩。
That's very true.
这是非常正确的。
But what people don't realize, that soreness also comes from too much acid.
但人们没有意识到，酸痛也来自于胃酸过多。
In the past, the coaches used to tell, "Oh, acid burns holes in your muscle." It doesn't.
过去，教练们常常会说：“哦，酸会在你的肌肉上烧出洞。”事实并非如此。
But what it does do is when the acid levels are high in the muscle, it stimulates production of free radicals, which pound the cellular membranes later.
但它的作用是，当肌肉中的酸水平很高时，它会刺激自由基的产生，从而随后破坏细胞膜。
It also stimulates activity of lysosomes and phagocytes that just eat up the muscle.
它还会刺激溶酶体和吞噬细胞的活动，从而吞噬肌肉。
So if you do too much acidic work, you're going to be sore as well.
因此，如果您进行过多的酸性工作，您也会感到疼痛。
So seeking that makes no sense whatsoever, especially as we know, not even from scientific studies, but from athletic experience.
因此，寻求这一点是没有任何意义的，尤其是据我们所知，甚至不是从科学研究中，而是从运动经验中得知。
Some people get sore all the time, see no progress in anything.
有些人总是感到疼痛，看不到任何进展。
Some people don't get sore, they keep getting stronger, and everybody in between.
有些人不会感到疼痛，他们会变得越来越强壮，而每个人都介于两者之间。
So there's no correlation.
所以没有相关性。
If you're looking for pump, on the other hand, if you're trying to build muscle, while building strength, one very simple guideline would be achieve some pump with the heavyweight and low reps.
另一方面，如果你正在寻找泵感，如果你想在增强力量的同时增强肌肉，一个非常简单的指导方针就是通过重量级和低次数来实现一些泵感。
So if you keep your reps to five and at fewer, even three, but you achieve a little pump, that means you've performed a sufficient volume of work to stimulate the adaptation.
因此，如果你将重复次数保持在五次甚至更少，甚至三次，但你获得了一点泵感，这意味着你已经完成了足够的工作量来刺激适应。
What exactly happens in the muscle?
肌肉中究竟发生了什么？
I cannot tell you, but it absolutely does work for both strength and both hypertrophy.
我不能告诉你，但它绝对对力量和肥大都有效。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So many theories about what causes hypertrophy.
关于导致肥大的原因有很多理论。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
At least you and I know that we don't know.
至少你和我知道我们不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
We're just speculating here.
我们只是在这里猜测。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I really appreciate that you always acknowledge that we're not totally in the dark about hypertrophy.
我真的很感激你总是承认我们对肥大并不完全一无所知。
I like this theory about the hydrogen creating a permeability of the cells.
我喜欢这个关于氢创造细胞渗透性的理论。
And you mentioned that then it gives the hormones access.
你提到过，它可以让荷尔蒙进入。
Some folks might know-
有些人可能知道——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
To the nucleus, yeah.
到了核心，是的。
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and some people might know the steroid hormones like testosterone, estrogen, and others, they can bind to cell surface receptors, but they can also go into the nucleus of-
有些人可能知道类固醇激素，如睾酮、雌激素等，它们可以与细胞表面受体结合，但它们也可以进入细胞核-
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a cell itself and cause changes in gene expression-
细胞本身并引起基因表达的变化-
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
That's exactly it.
就是这样。
That's correct
这是正确的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which is if you just think about puberty as the most salient example, right?
如果您仅将青春期视为最突出的例子，对吗？
There's all these latent potential in the cells of the body, but then once the testosterone and dihydrotestosterone and estrogen arrives in the body, depending on the sex of the individual, then you activate hair growth, you activate breast growth, you activate muscle growth-
身体的细胞中存在所有这些潜在的潜力，但是一旦睾酮、二氢睾酮和雌激素到达体内，根据个人的性别，你就会激活毛发生长，激活乳房生长，激活肌肉生长——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
thickening of vocal.
声音变厚。
Anyway, that's through changes in gene expression.
无论如何，这是通过基因表达的变化来实现的。
In this configuration that you described before of doing this three repetitions and repeating, you may be doing that three times a-
在您之前描述的进行这三次重复和重复的配置中，您可能会这样做三次-
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Up to three.
最多三个。
You can even do one, as you mentioned.
正如您提到的，您甚至可以做一个。
Yes.
是的。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Three times a week.
每周三次。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could I also train for strength simultaneously?
我可以同时进行力量训练吗？
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Absolutely you can.
绝对可以。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Same days or other days?
是同一天还是其他日子？
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Other days.
其他日子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Other days.
其他日子。
So on the intervening days, I could go in and do my real strength work.
所以在接下来的几天里，我可以去做我真正的力量训练。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Yes.
是的。
And you look at your priority.
然后你看看你的优先事项。
If your strength is more important, do this type of a strength aerobic work no more than twice a week.
如果您的力量更重要，那么每周进行此类力量有氧运动的次数不要超过两次。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
And then you do strength like an additional three times or four times.
然后你再做三到四次力量训练。
If that type of endurance is more important, do real strength work once a week, and then three, four times of the other kind.
如果这种类型的耐力更重要，那么每周进行一次真正的力量训练，然后进行三到四次其他类型的训练。
This is also a very good idea in general for training different qualities.
对于训练不同的素质来说，这通常也是一个非常好的主意。
Because trying to develop everything to a high level at the same time is impossible.
因为试图同时将所有事物发展到高水平是不可能的。
Simultaneously training in parallel everything only is good for young kids when they're developing because you got to try everything.
同时并行训练所有事情只对正在成长的孩子有好处，因为你必须尝试所有事情。
Nothing's at a high level.
没有什么是高水平的。
Later on, there are different models of how to structure addressing different qualities.
后来，有不同的模型来解决不同的质量问题。
So one example would be block training.
一个例子就是分块训练。
So here's one really good example of how strength and hypertrophy can be addressed at different periods.
这是一个很好的例子，说明如何在不同时期处理力量和肥大问题。
The experiment goes back to 1970s.
这个实验可以追溯到 20 世纪 70 年代。
It was done on Ivanov, Kiselyova, forgot the third author.
这是在伊万诺夫（Ivanov）基谢廖娃（Kiselyova）身上完成的，忘记了第三位作者。
Experiment was done on throwers.
实验是在投掷者身上进行的。
And they were doing squats and bench presses.
他们正在做深蹲和卧推。
And one group was doing 85% for five triples, typical heavy type stuff.
其中一组完成了 5 个三连冠的 85%，这是典型的重型训练。
The other was three sets of 10 with 60%, which is fairly typical hypertrophy work.
另一种是三组10次60%，是相当典型的肥大动作。
Jim Bros would say, "That's too light for sets of 10." And I say, "No, it's not." Because you still have to throw the shot put the next day.
Jim Bros 会说：“对于 10 件一组来说，这太轻了。”我说：“不，不是的。”因为第二天你还得投铅球。
If you do your 10 reps to failure, you're going to be completely done.
如果你做 10 次到力竭，你就彻底完成了。
Your strength will be down by about 40% for the next few days.
接下来的几天你的力量将会下降40%左右。
And so the one group did this, the other group did this.
所以一组这样做，另一组也这样做。
They both made good gains.
两人都取得了不错的成绩。
But up to a point, then they plateaued.
但到了一定程度，他们就会趋于稳定。
The third group, they alternated two weeks of this, two weeks of that.
第三组，他们交替两周这样，两周那样。
In the squat, interestingly, I have to say, it didn't make that much difference.
有趣的是，在深蹲中，我不得不说，这并没有多大区别。
But in the bench press, there was a huge difference that alternating these two type stimuli.
但在卧推中，交替使用这两种类型的刺激存在巨大差异。
So that's an example of block training, how you can do that.
这就是块训练的一个例子，你可以如何做到这一点。
But what you can also do is you could simply maintain a quality.
但你也可以做的是简单地保持质量。
So fortunately, it takes a lot less work to maintain anything that you've reached than to To get there.
幸运的是，维护已达到的目标所需的工作量比实现目标所需的工作量要少得多。
So typically training some quality once a week at a moderate effort is enough to maintain it.
因此，通常每周进行一次适度的训练就足以维持它。
Like in strength, example of strength, if once a week you lift 80% of your max for three sets of three reps, you can maintain your strength easily for months.
就像力量一样，举个例子，如果你每周一次举起最大重量的 80%，进行三组，每组 3 次，那么你可以轻松地保持你的力量几个月。
Easily.
容易地。
It just doesn't take much at all.
这根本不需要太多。
And you don't want to stop your strength training ever totally, because again, it will improve everything that you do, even your endurance.
而且您不想完全停止力量训练，因为它会再次改善您所做的一切，甚至是您的耐力。
But then you can switch the priorities in the same manner, and people can do that in their own way.
但是你可以用同样的方式切换优先级，人们可以用自己的方式做到这一点。
Oh, okay, here's a great example.
哦，好吧，这是一个很好的例子。
So I love Stu's Biblical week.
所以我喜欢斯图的圣经周。
So where Stu McGill, he trains two days a week of strength, two days a week of mobility, two days a week of endurance, which is a very good and balanced model.
所以在Stu McGill那里，他每周训练两天力量，每周训练两天灵活性，每周训练两天耐力，这是一个非常好的平衡模式。
But what you could do for a while is you switch to doing one, two, three.
但你暂时可以做的就是转而做一、二、三。
So let's say one quality gets three days a week, one quality gets two, one quality gets one.
因此，假设一种品质每周获得三天，一种品质每周获得两天，一种品质每周获得一天。
And then you shift the priority.
然后你改变优先级。
So this sort of a serial specialization is a very good tactics for experienced trainees.
因此，对于经验丰富的学员来说，这种系列专业化是一个非常好的策略。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe switching it up once every month, perhaps?
也许每个月更换一次，也许？
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Once a month is good.
一个月一次就好了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And maintaining that moderate hard, what was it?
保持适度的努力，是什么？
Moderate, very hard.
中等，非常难。
What was Franco's cycle?
佛朗哥的周期是怎样的？
Forgive me for forgetting.
原谅我忘记了。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
You can do that as well, yeah.
你也可以这样做，是的。
Fred Franco had four weeks of deadlifts.
弗雷德·弗兰科进行了四个星期的硬拉训练。
Moderate heavy, moderate very heavy.
中等重，中等重。
And again, we can define them a lot of different ways, but we definitely need to vary the effort, not just the intensity somehow in our training.
再说一遍，我们可以用很多不同的方式来定义它们，但我们绝对需要改变训练的努力程度，而不仅仅是强度。
It can be done differently in different training systems.
在不同的培训体系中可以采取不同的做法。
One very simple way is just to stop your sets earlier, long before failure and later on in some weeks just get a little bit closer to that.
一个非常简单的方法就是早点停止你的训练，在力竭之前很久，然后在几周后稍微接近力竭。
So that's an example of that classic American cycling, power lifting cycling.
这就是经典的美式自行车举重自行车的一个例子。
So when on your week four, you're going to do five reps with your five-rep max.
因此，在第四周时，您将在最多 5 次的情况下完成 5 次。
But on week one, you're doing five reps with your perhaps 10-rep max.
但在第一周，你会重复 5 次，最多可能重复 10 次。
So that's a very simple way of doing that where you go easy and then you go harder, and then you start over.
所以这是一种非常简单的方法，先轻松一点，然后再努力一点，然后重新开始。
But there are many different other ways of structuring it.
但还有许多不同的其他方式来构建它。
But generally speaking, I'd like to warn people that training hard has to be done, but it has to be done in really small doses.
但总的来说，我想警告人们，训练必须刻苦训练，但训练量必须非常小。
Let's use singles as an example, heavy singles.
我们以单打为例，重单打。
Heavy singles are the special sauce of strength training.
大重量单打是力量训练的特殊调味料。
They cannot be used as the foundation of your training unless you are, except for some very few genetically gifted individuals.
它们不能用作你训练的基础，除非你这样做，除了极少数具有遗传天赋的人。
We all know that Bulgarians have done that in weightlifting, but again, these guys were specially selected, specially assisted, and they were broken very quickly.
我们都知道保加利亚人在举重比赛中做到了这一点，但同样，这些人是经过专门挑选、经过专门协助的，他们很快就被打破了。
Soviet champions stayed.
苏联冠军留下来了。
There are some Soviets who won the Olympics at the age of 36, like Plukfelder and Alexeev.
有一些苏联人在36岁时就赢得了奥运会冠军，比如普卢克费尔德和阿列克谢耶夫。
For weightlifting, that's just a absolutely old man.
对于举重来说，那绝对是一个老人了。
And David Rigert set, I think, what?
大卫·里格特（David Rigert）设定了，我想，什么？
63 world records.
63项世界纪录。
Because they were very careful about when to use this near maximal stimuli.
因为他们对于何时使用这种接近最大的刺激非常谨慎。
They figured out this.
他们想通了这一点。
And the system itself, the Soviet weightlifting system, was totally empirical, which is really fascinating.
而系统本身，即苏联举重系统，完全是经验性的，这确实令人着迷。
They just looked what works, what doesn't, compare it, and just kept trying.
他们只是看看什么有效，什么无效，进行比较，然后继续尝试。
So they've experimented with everything.
所以他们尝试了一切。
And they simply have found that certain observations like, okay, lighter lifters can do more heavy singles than heavier guys.
他们只是发现某些观察结果，例如，较轻的举重运动员可以比较重的运动员做更多的大重量单打。
Intermediates can do more than the advanced guys.
中级的人比高级的人能做的更多。
It's going to vary from lift to lift, lifter to lifter.
每个升降机、每个升降机的情况都会有所不同。
No difference between guys who are on drugs and guys who are not, but you have to individualize it.
吸毒者和不吸毒者之间没有区别，但你必须因人而异。
And they found that if you do too many heavy singles, you're going to not progress rapidly or hurt yourself.
他们发现，如果你做太多大重量的单打，你就不会进步很快，或者会受伤。
You don't do enough, you don't progress as quickly.
你做得不够，进步也不够快。
So you have to find that sweet spot for yourself.
所以你必须找到适合自己的最佳位置。
And they also were very definite that the singles aren't maximal.
他们也非常确定单打并不是最大的。
So that's what competitions are for.
这就是比赛的目的。
So they would go to 90 maybe 92.5% once in a blue moon 95, but you're not there to test yourself.
所以他们会千载难逢地达到 90 甚至 92.5% 95，但你不是来测试自己的。
There's even Russian powerlifters what they do a couple of weeks before a meet.
甚至还有俄罗斯举重运动员在比赛前几周会做的事情。
They have this work up to a weight that's kind of max.
他们的这项工作的重量达到了最大重量。
So the word for this and it translates kind of like estimate.
所以这个词的翻译有点像估计。
It's like an estimate.
这就像一个估计。
This is not you're guessing like you see this is where I'm at.
这不是你所猜测的，就像你看到的那样，这就是我现在所处的位置。
That gives me an idea of what's going to be my first attempt, what my opener is going to be.
这让我知道我的第一次尝试是什么，我的开场白是什么。
Instead of, "Oh, I'm going to test myself.
而不是，“哦，我要测试一下自己。
I'm going to show them." Gym is not the place to show anything.
我要展示给他们看。”健身房不是展示任何东西的地方。
That's what the platform's for.
这就是平台的用途。
So you need to find, if you're interested and serious about strength, you need to find how often you can go heavy in the different lifts.
所以你需要发现，如果你对力量感兴趣并且认真对待，你需要知道你可以多久进行一次不同的举重动作。
Start with something maybe once a month, about 90%, and then try to see doing it more, doing it toward doing it fewer times.
一开始可能每月一次（大约 90%），然后尝试做更多的事情，逐渐减少做的次数。
But the meat and potatoes of the training has to be in these moderately heavy weights.
但训练的重点必须是这些中等重量的重量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Heavy enough to respect, light enough not to fear, and most of the work has to be done with that.
重到足以让人尊重，轻到足以让人不惧怕，大部分工作都必须以此来完成。
So it's like those sets of three, four, maybe five reps with 80% something like that.
所以这就像一组三、四、也许五次重复，其中 80% 是这样的。
And that's fairly universal across the training systems.
这在整个培训系统中相当普遍。
Because the American power lifting system is organized, the cycling is organized totally different, but that's again, there's going to be fives and threes and fours.
因为美国举重系统的组织方式与自行车运动的组织方式完全不同，但同样，会有五人制、三人制和四人制。
That's going to be a big deal.
这将是一件大事。
Soviet system, different, but a lot of threes, a lot of fours, some fives.
苏联的体系不同，但有很多三人制，很多四人制，一些五人制。
Some variations, but why it is so?
有些变化，但为什么会这样呢？
Some of it possibly has to do with skill practice because This goes to an example as a Western study of a discrete skill.
其中一些可能与技能练习有关，因为这是西方对离散技能的研究的一个例子。
A discrete skill, to listeners, that means something that happens once, kind of like a throw or a lift, as opposed to continuous skill like running.
对于听众来说，离散技能意味着发生一次的事情，比如投掷或举重，而不是像跑步这样的连续技能。
And in an experiment, they tested these athletes do this discrete skill for six sets of one, three sets of two, or one set of six.
在一项实验中，他们测试了这些运动员在六组一组、三组二组或一组六组中的离散技能。
And two sets of three did much better.
两组三人的表现要好得多。
So supposedly, it's like there's certain amount of repetitiveness, like when you hit the perfect rep and then you're done.
所以据说，这就像存在一定程度的重复性，就像当你达到完美的次数然后你就完成了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
So again, triples have that very special quality.
再说一遍，三元组具有非常特殊的品质。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And presumably, there's a drop-off of ability to concentrate and really execute properly.
据推测，集中注意力和真正正确执行的能力会下降。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One thing that keeps coming through here is that whether or not one's talking about high volume or low volume or endurance or strength, quality, quality, quality.
这里不断出现的一件事是，无论人们是否在谈论高训练量或低训练量，或耐力或力量，质量，质量，质量。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Oh, no doubt about it.
哦，毫无疑问。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Everything else is potentially detrimental and frankly has added a lot of confusion to the fitness literature where people, I think, they're doing five sets of five or do I do 10 sets of 10.
其他一切都可能是有害的，坦率地说，这给健身文献增添了很多混乱，我认为人们是做五组，每组五次，还是我做十组，每组十次。
And if I may, this isn't my field of expertise, but again, having been in and around it for a while, I feel like the message that keeps coming through that's going to deliver the results is every single repetition, high quality.
如果可以的话，这不是我的专业领域，但同样，在这个领域工作了一段时间，我觉得不断传达的信息将带来结果，那就是每一次重复，高质量。
The rest period, high quality, whatever that may be.
休息时间，高质量，无论是什么。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Walking around, shaking it off.
走来走去，甩掉它。
The structuring of the program, high quality.
节目结构合理，质量高。
I think people are far too haphazard and seeking the pump and soreness and some sweat so that they can have their post-workout shake.
我认为人们太随意了，寻求泵感、酸痛和出汗，这样他们就可以在锻炼后喝奶。
Well, I'm not trying to be-
好吧，我并不是想成为-
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
And a selfie.
还有一张自拍照。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, and a selfie between every set.
是的，每组之间还有一张自拍照。
And just kind of check the box.
只需选中该框即可。
Even for people that aren't competitive athletes, I think there's just such an enormous range of things to be gleaned from taking one's fitness training seriously.
即使对于那些不是竞技运动员的人来说，我认为认真对待健身训练也可以收集到很多东西。
Even the word fitness is kind of a strange word.
甚至“健身”这个词也是一个奇怪的词。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Training seriously, right?
认真训练吧？
I've never even called it a workout.
我什至从来没有称其为锻炼。
I think I picked that up from Menser.
我想我是从门塞尔那里学来的。
You train.
你训练。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Or you practice.
或者你练习一下。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or you practice.
或者你练习一下。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I like that very much.
我非常喜欢这一点。
I also like the distinction between students and clients.
我也喜欢学生和客户之间的区别。
These are not just labels, I think they really-
这些不仅仅是标签，我认为它们真的-
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
No, they're really not
不，他们真的不是
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
change our cognitive frame.
改变我们的认知框架。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
In the Soviet system, when you're talking about your training session, oftentimes it was referred to as a lesson.
在苏联体制中，当你谈论你的训练课程时，通常会被称为一堂课。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
When various qualities were developed, like strength, endurance, and so on.
当各种品质得到发展时，如力量、耐力等。
Verkhoshansky, for example, often mentioned that education of qualities.
例如，维尔霍尚斯基经常提到素质教育。
And at StrongFirst, we talk about a practice, not a workout.
在 StrongFirst，我们谈论的是练习，而不是锻炼。
And a great line that was written 100 years ago by Earle Liederman in his "Secrets of Strength." And back then, strength athletes understood the importance of not training on the nerve.
一百年前，厄尔·利德曼 (Earle Liederman) 在他的《力量的秘密》中写下了这句伟大的话。那时，力量运动员明白不训练神经的重要性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
So they understood, you just train and then eventually you're going to go for a PR, but the rest of the time you don't kill yourself.
所以他们明白，你只是训练，然后最终你会获得个人纪录，但剩下的时间你不会自杀。
And when he's describing kind of these early adherent of this high intensity whatever, and he's referring to him, he says, "He has literally worked himself out." And he says that that's something a strength seeker cannot afford.
当他描述这种高强度的早期追随者时，他指的是他，他说，“他确实已经锻炼了自己。”他说这是一个寻求力量的人无法承受的。
So semantically, when you're trying to work yourself out, that you're trying to exhaust yourself or are you trying to practice to excel to get better at something?
所以从语义上来说，当你试图锻炼自己时，你是在努力让自己筋疲力尽，还是在努力练习以在某件事上做得更好？
And that applies to any quality because endurance very much has a skill component just like strength, because the ability to reuse the elastic properties of the tissues, the ability to relax between the contractions to restore the circulation, the ability to maintain the proper posture and so on and so forth.
这适用于任何品质，因为耐力就像力量一样，也有技能成分，因为重新利用组织的弹性特性的能力、在收缩之间放松以恢复血液循环的能力、保持正确姿势的能力等等。
These are all skills.
这些都是技能。
The breathing skill, huge.
呼吸功力，巨大。
Extremely important for strength, for endurance, for absolutely anything.
对于力量、耐力、任何事情都极其重要。
And if you're going through this mindlessly, nobody's going to get very far this way.
如果你不假思索地经历这一切，没有人会走得很远。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, so while one could use resistance training in order to generate strength and endurance, you explained how to do that.
好吧，虽然人们可以使用阻力训练来增强力量和耐力，但您解释了如何做到这一点。
There are a good number of people out there, including myself, that sometimes like to get outside for a run or to hike.
有很多人，包括我自己，有时喜欢出去跑步或徒步旅行。
As you mentioned earlier about the rucksack.
正如您之前提到的背包。
I'm not such a fan of the rucksack because of being pitched forward, but I like this idea of carrying the kettlebell and switching sides.
我不太喜欢背包，因为它会向前倾斜，但我喜欢这种携带壶铃并换边的想法。
Nowadays, they also have some weight vests that are a little bit more close to the body that distribute the weight.
如今，他们也有一些更贴近身体的重量背心，可以分散重量。
What are your thoughts about going into the gym in order to do the strength training and then generating the endurance work elsewhere?
您对进入健身房进行力量训练然后在其他地方进行耐力训练有何看法？
To be blunt, how would one combine lifting and running in a way that allows one to get stronger and develop endurance, perhaps simultaneously?
坦率地说，如何将举重和跑步结合起来，让一个人变得更强壮，同时培养耐力？
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
If we're talking about right now, people who are just active, people who are not athletes, there are several things they need to keep in mind.
如果我们现在谈论的是那些只是活跃的人，或者不是运动员的人，那么他们需要记住几件事。
One is the timing, relative timing of strength work and endurance work.
一是时间安排，力量训练和耐力训练的相对时间安排。
If the strength exercises that you're doing are primarily neural adaptations is what you're targeting, which means lower repetitions, heavier stuff, then it's important to be fresh when you're doing the exercise.
如果您正在做的力量练习主要是神经适应，这就是您的目标，这意味着更少的重复次数，更重的东西，那么在进行练习时保持新鲜感就很重要。
It doesn't matter as much what happens afterwards.
之后发生的事情并不那么重要。
So which means that you could do some heavy deadlifts, and then a few hours later you can go for a hike.
这意味着你可以做一些大重量的硬拉，然后几个小时后你就可以去徒步旅行了。
On the other hand, if your lifting is more hypertrophy-oriented, it's less important if you come in tired.
另一方面，如果你的举重更注重增肌，那么如果你感到疲劳就不太重要了。
It's okay even if you just hiked in the morning and then you went, did your curls.
即使你早上刚徒步旅行然后去做卷发也没关系。
But afterwards, for 36, 48 hours, it's ideally to restrict endurance exercise.
但之后的 36、48 小时内，最好限制耐力运动。
So because you're really going to have a massive conflict right there and it's not a good idea to do that.
因为你真的会在那里发生大规模的冲突，而这样做并不是一个好主意。
If you're doing our preferred work of, let's say, sets of five reps.
如果你正在做我们喜欢的工作，比如说，每组五次。
Five reps, again, they address both endurance and strength.
再次重复五次，它们同时解决耐力和力量问题。
Well, I guess you better keep a window on both ends right there.
好吧，我想你最好在两端各留一个窗户。
There is always a conflict.
冲突总是存在的。
Thomas Sowell said there are no solutions, there are only compromises.
托马斯·索维尔表示，没有解决方案，只有妥协。
So you just have to decide which way you want to compromise.
所以你只需要决定你想要妥协的方式。
But that separation in time really does help.
但时间上的分离确实有帮助。
The other thing is spending different times when you focus on one thing versus the other.
另一件事是当你专注于一件事和另一件事时花费的时间不同。
So the next two months you're going to spend on hitting your strength hard, and you're just going to do two hikes a week just for your health, just to maintain.
因此，接下来的两个月你将花大力气增强你的力量，并且你每周会进行两次徒步旅行，只是为了你的健康，只是为了保持健康。
And then summer rolls around and you put your lifting on the back burner.
然后夏天来临，你就把举重放在次要位置。
You lift less, not necessarily lighter, just less, and you spend a lot more time outdoors and do these different things.
你举起的东西减少了，不一定是轻了，只是减少了，而且你在户外花费了更多的时间，做这些不同的事情。
Keeping in mind also the duration of training.
还要记住培训的持续时间。
So the longer your training session is of any kind, the more you are triggering adaptations that are more in favor of endurance.
因此，任何类型的训练时间越长，你就越能触发更有利于耐力的适应。
So your cortisol level goes up, and there are some other things that do happen that drive you towards endurance as opposed to strength.
因此，你的皮质醇水平会上升，并且确实会发生一些其他事情，促使你走向耐力而不是力量。
So even in your strength training, don't make the sessions too long.
因此，即使在力量训练中，也不要让训练时间太长。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's too long?
什么太长了？
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
It's really hard to know at this point.
目前确实很难知道。
In the Soviet weightlifting practice, the top guys would spend two and a half hours.
在苏联举重训练中，顶尖选手要花两个半小时。
For them that seemed appropriate.
对他们来说这似乎是合适的。
But then again, don't forget at that point they're juicing.
但话又说回来，不要忘记那时他们正在榨汁。
And in the pre-steroid eras, those times were shorter.
在类固醇出现之前的时代，这些时间更短。
And this is one of the differences in steroids, by the way.
顺便说一下，这是类固醇的区别之一。
That's in your training when you use steroids or not.
无论您是否使用类固醇，这都在您的训练中。
As I mentioned earlier, Soviets established the correlation with the volume of lifting and muscle mass.
正如我之前提到的，苏联人建立了举重量和肌肉质量之间的相关性。
That's one thing.
这是一回事。
But they also established correlation between volume of lifting at 80% or higher and strength.
但他们还建立了 80% 或更高的举重量与力量之间的相关性。
And the correlation is very strong, 0.84.
而且相关性非常强，为 0.84。
However, if you're talking about the muscle mass with that lighter stuff, some lifters would just get great results and some lifters would just get more endurance.
然而，如果你谈论的是那些较轻的东西的肌肉质量，一些举重运动员只会获得很好的成绩，而一些举重运动员只会获得更多的耐力。
And they found that guys who are juicing, they can keep doing higher volumes and still keep getting more muscular.
他们发现，那些经常榨汁的人，他们可以继续做更高的量，但仍然会变得更肌肉。
But the guys who are clean, they're just not able to do that.
但那些干净的人，他们就是做不到这一点。
So trial and error.
所以反复试验。
Probably like Marty Gallagher says, fill an hour.
可能就像马蒂·加拉格尔（Marty Gallagher）所说的那样，填满一个小时。
I think that's a safe guideline.
我认为这是一个安全的指导方针。
Fill an hour.
补一个小时。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I like the fill an hour.
我喜欢填满一个小时。
I don't think I've ever spent more than an hour of actual work in the gym, maybe 75 minutes or so.
我认为我在健身房里实际工作的时间从来没有超过一个小时，也许是 75 分钟左右。
I notice if I train longer than that, I pay a serious price in terms of post-exercise fatigue later in the day.
我注意到，如果我训练的时间超过这个时间，我会在当天晚些时候因运动后疲劳而付出严重的代价。
I'd actually like to talk about this concept.
我其实很想谈谈这个概念。
I looked it up before sitting down today.
今天坐下之前我查了一下。
There's a little bit of literature starting to emerge, not as much as I would like, about post-exercise cholinergic depletion.
关于运动后胆碱能消耗的一些文献开始出现，但没有我想要的那么多。
So much of our ability to hold our attention is dependent on epinephrine, norepinephrine, and acetylcholine release in the brain.
我们保持注意力的能力很大程度上取决于大脑中肾上腺素、去甲肾上腺素和乙酰胆碱的释放。
And of course, muscular contractions, acetylcholine being the dominant transmitter from nerve to muscle communication.
当然，还有肌肉收缩，乙酰胆碱是从神经到肌肉通讯的主要递质。
But this idea that if we exercise too intensely, or even if we just do cognitive work that's very intense for a period of time, that there's this post-exercise cholinergic depletion, and then we get this what people typically call brain fog, although that's not a real medical term.
但这种想法认为，如果我们运动得太剧烈，或者即使我们只是在一段时间内进行非常剧烈的认知工作，就会出现运动后胆碱能消耗，然后我们就会得到人们通常所说的脑雾，尽管这不是一个真正的医学术语。
So I think from the practical standpoint, a lot of people who would like to train more for strength, train more often for strength, do strength and endurance work.
所以我觉得从实际的角度来说，很多人想多练力量，多练力量，做力量和耐力的工作。
The challenge sometimes isn't just scheduling it, it's that we feel depleted and tired afterward.
有时挑战不仅仅是安排时间，而是事后我们感到精疲力尽和疲倦。
Have you observed this?
你观察过这一点吗？
And is there a way to use strength training or other forms of training to improve cognitive function?
有没有办法利用力量训练或其他形式的训练来改善认知功能？
Because again, as you pointed out, only compromises, not solutions.
因为正如您所指出的，只有妥协，没有解决方案。
But I do see a world in which one could use their physical training to give them, for lack of a better word, a boost into the day.
但我确实看到了一个世界，在这个世界里，人们可以利用体能训练来为他们的一天注入活力，因为没有更好的词来形容了。
So you're getting stronger, you're developing your health, and you're also able to then lean into your day with more focus and intention.
因此，您会变得更强壮，您的健康状况会得到改善，并且您也能够更加专注和有目标地度过每一天。
That would be the ultimate scenario.
这将是最终的场景。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Well, obviously we're looking at a zero-sum game.
嗯，显然我们正在考虑一场零和游戏。
So you only have so much.
所以你只有这么多。
Your resources are limited.
你的资源是有限的。
One thing that will absolutely help is fragmentation.
绝对有帮助的一件事是碎片化。
It's been proven that dividing up a given workload into smaller chunks allows you, doesn't matter what it is, whether it's endurance training or strength training or some cognitive work, you're able to do more.
事实证明，将给定的工作量分成更小的部分，无论它是什么，无论是耐力训练、力量训练还是一些认知工作，你都可以做更多的事情。
And that's one thing to consider.
这是需要考虑的一件事。
The other is obviously the feedback.
另一个显然是反馈。
You have to listen to your body pretty much.
你必须多听听你身体的声音。
Soviets stressed very much that you have to take the cybernetic approach.
苏联人非常强调必须采取控制论方法。
You have to have the feedback.
你必须得到反馈。
No matter what the training plan says, Arkady Varabov says you have to listen to that feedback.
阿卡季·瓦拉博夫表示，无论训练计划如何，你都必须听取反馈。
And freshness in the Soviet system of strength training, and not just in weightlifting, freshness was paramount.
在苏联的力量训练体系中，新鲜感至关重要，而不仅仅是举重。
It's even better.
甚至更好。
Let's talk about how track athletes in the Soviet Union train for strength.
我们来谈谈苏联田径运动员是如何训练力量的。
And that will be even more applicable to a lot of the listeners because they definitely didn't spend two and a half hours in the gym.
这对很多听众来说更适用，因为他们肯定没有在健身房里呆两个半小时。
So Professor Vladimir Dyachkov, he was a head coach, and he was one of the first to implement heavy lifting for the track right after the Soviets decided, "Hey, look at these Americans lifting heavy weights." Bruce Randall and Paul Anderson and Canadian Doug Hepburn.
弗拉基米尔·迪亚奇科夫（Vladimir Dyachkov）教授是一名主教练，在苏联人决定“嘿，看看这些美国人举重”后，他是第一批在赛道上实施举重的人之一。布鲁斯·兰德尔、保罗·安德森和加拿大人道格·赫本。
So these lifters, he says, "Always do low reps." So they would never do more than three, four reps, even with the lightest weight, even with a warm-up weight.
所以这些举重运动员，他说，“总是做低次数。”因此，即使使用最轻的重量，即使使用热身重量，他们也不会做超过三、四次的重复。
They spent a lot of time doing just singles and doubles.
他们花了很多时间只打单打和双打。
And it was absolutely essential that they stayed fresh.
它们保持新鲜是绝对必要的。
And part of it was just how they felt.
部分原因在于他们的感受。
Part of it is the performance, how well they jumped and so on, and how they felt after.
一部分是表演，他们跳得如何等等，以及他们跳后的感受。
So they found if you're really obsessive about it, you have that tonic effect that lasts at least until the next day.
所以他们发现，如果你真的沉迷于此，你的补品效果至少会持续到第二天。
And the tonic effect is both for your strength, for your power, but also for your cognitive function as well.
补品效果不仅针对你的力量、力量，而且还针对你的认知功能。
But it's also very, very interesting that-- here's an idea.
但也非常非常有趣的是——这是一个想法。
Do a bench press the next day before you're competing in the jump, or do a heavy squat the day before you're competing as a thrower.
第二天在参加跳远比赛之前进行卧推，或者在参加投掷比赛前一天进行大重量深蹲。
So again, it's very interesting how the opposite part of the body stimulating that was very helpful.
再说一次，非常有趣的是，刺激身体的另一部分非常有帮助。
A very interesting phenomenon.
一个非常有趣的现象。
So they found if the strength work is familiar and non-exhaustive, it absolutely facilitates whatever it is that you do afterwards.
因此他们发现，如果力量训练是熟悉的且非详尽的，那么它绝对有利于你之后做的任何事情。
Hmm.
唔。
And restricting-- This is where track athletes were very different from a lot of other people.
限制——这就是田径运动员与许多其他人非常不同的地方。
They tried to restrict their volume as much as possible of strength training, in part because, well, they had to do other things, and because they had to stay fresh.
他们试图尽可能限制力量训练的量，部分原因是，他们必须做其他事情，而且因为他们必须保持新鲜感。
So, if you look at the volume, if you look at, generally speaking, how many repetitions that you want to perform per exercise, per training session, and again, these are purely empirical numbers.
所以，如果你看一下训练量，如果你看一下，一般来说，你想在每次练习、每次训练中进行多少次重复，这些都是纯粹的经验数字。
They come from Soviet weightlifting, but they were also applied in track.
它们来自苏联举重，但也应用于田径比赛。
So the minimal volume is 10 to 20 repetitions total.
因此，最少的训练量是总共 10 到 20 次重复。
So minimal.
如此之少。
And optimal is 20 to 30.
最佳数量是 20 到 30。
Maximal, it becomes 30 to 50, in that window.
在该窗口中，最大数量变为 30 到 50。
So when you're looking at 20 to 30 reps, maybe on the lower end right there, you're going to build strength.
因此，当您进行 20 到 30 次重复（也许是较低的次数）时，您就会增强力量。
And if you also are going to not go to failure and rest sufficiently between sets, unless you're greasing the groove, you need to look at at least five minutes pretty much, and that's both for neural and biochemical reasons.
如果你不想力竭，并且在组间充分休息，除非你已经进入最佳状态，那么你至少需要看五分钟，这既是出于神经和生化的原因。
But more is really better.
但确实越多越好。
Unfortunately, really, a lot of it just comes down to listening to your body and just using your judgment.
不幸的是，实际上，很多事情只能归结为倾听你的身体并运用你的判断。
I wish I had any better answer here.
我希望在这里有更好的答案。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, I think it's a terrific answer.
不，我认为这是一个很棒的答案。
I like to leave the gym with some gas in the tank.
我喜欢离开健身房时油箱里还留有一些汽油。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because, well, I get paid to think and to speak, as it were, not to lift, but-
因为，嗯，我得到报酬是为了思考和说话，而不是举重，但是——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
And many great thinkers in the strength world, starting from Lederman back 100 years ago, to Soviet weightlifting authorities like Radziwonow and Roman, and later on, somebody like even Steve Justa, was a very colorful individual.
力量界的许多伟大思想家，从100年前的莱德曼，到拉齐沃诺夫和罗曼这样的苏联举重权威，再到后来的史蒂夫·贾斯塔，都是一个非常丰富多彩的人。
Just brilliant, brilliant strength athlete.
非常非常出色的力量运动员。
A farmer from Nebraska who just came up with some fantastic protocols.
一位来自内布拉斯加州的农民刚刚想出了一些很棒的协议。
But he would say that you've got to finish stronger than when you started.
但他会说你结束时必须比开始时更强。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love that.
我喜欢那个。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
And that theme very much permeates professional or high-level strength training, where this mentality of a workout, or try to get smoked or pumped or throw up in the bucket, they would look at you as just insane.
这个主题在很大程度上渗透到专业或高水平的力量训练中，在这种锻炼心态下，或者尝试抽烟、抽气或呕吐在桶里，他们会认为你疯了。
One of the reasons that also Soviets restricted the number of reps in the squat, because you do sets of 10 in the squat, you're going to definitely put on some mass, no question about it.
苏联人限制深蹲次数的原因之一是，因为你在深蹲中做 10 组，毫无疑问，你肯定会增加一些重量。
But one of the reasons they restricted that, very few people did sets of 10, except for heavyweights who had a hard time bulking, and even more, is like, okay, that's too much cardiorespiratory stress.
但他们限制的原因之一是，很少有人做 10 组，除了那些很难增肌的重量级运动员，更重要的是，好吧，这会导致心肺压力太大。
And even though Soviet weightlifters did some general physical training, like cross-country running or playing soccer, but they're not trying to get their cardio on the lifting platform.
尽管苏联举重运动员进行了一些一般的体能训练，例如越野跑或踢足球，但他们并没有试图在举重平台上进行有氧运动。
That just made no sense whatsoever.
这毫无意义。
So restricting the reps will go a very long way.
因此，限制代表次数将大有帮助。
Increasing the rest periods to at least five minutes would go a very long way.
将休息时间增加到至少五分钟将会大有帮助。
And restricting the number of exercises.
并限制练习次数。
Because people don't realize that you're using different muscle groups but still using the same brain.
因为人们没有意识到你正在使用不同的肌肉群，但仍然使用相同的大脑。
You're still using the same adrenals.
你仍然使用相同的肾上腺。
And all that stuff really adds up.
所有这些东西确实加起来了。
And so I would say during one practice, one training practice, maybe two, maybe three exercises, max, lifts.
所以我想说，在一次练习中，一次训练练习，也许两次，也许三次练习，最多，举重。
And nothing wrong with doing just one.
只做一件事情并没有什么错。
And yeah, if you want to do your curls and whatever calves later, that's fine.
是的，如果你想稍后做卷发和小腿，那没问题。
But you can tack it on in the end, or you can do it totally separate.
但你可以把它放在最后，也可以完全分开。
Those things don't really zap you.
这些事情并不会真正摧毁你。
You can just come in on a separate day and just enjoy your calf burn.
您可以在单独的一天来享受小腿的燃烧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Love it.
喜欢它。
There seems to be an over-reliance nowadays on pre-workout stimulants.
如今似乎过度依赖锻炼前兴奋剂。
I'm a big consumer of caffeine in the form of yerba mate and coffee.
我是马黛茶和咖啡形式咖啡因的大量消费者。
I'm old school that way.
我就是这样的老派。
Not that I won't-
并不是说我不会-
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
I enjoy my coffee.
我很享受我的咖啡。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
You still drink coffee every day?
你还每天喝咖啡吗？
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Yes, I do.
是的，我愿意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
But only twice.
但只有两次。
Got to moderation.
得节制。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
These days, there's a lot of emphasis on just trying to get as absolutely wired and geared up for training.
如今，人们非常重视如何为训练做好充分准备。
And I think that, in part, contributes to why people feel this post-exercise fatigue.
我认为这在一定程度上解释了为什么人们会在运动后感到疲劳。
They go hit the gym hard after a pre-workout, and then they're doing their post-workout shake and a bunch of carbohydrates to replenish their glycogen.
他们在锻炼前会去健身房锻炼，然后在锻炼后喝奶昔和大量碳水化合物来补充糖原。
And then, of course, two hours later, you want to take a nap.
当然，两个小时后，你想小睡一下。
It's amazing anyone could study or do anything-
令人惊奇的是任何人都可以学习或做任何事情 -
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
at that point.
在那一点上。
I think that's very different than the kind of training you're describing.
我认为这与您所描述的培训类型非常不同。
So I'd love your thoughts on stimulants, generally, and how they can support or hinder performance.
因此，我希望了解您对兴奋剂的一般看法，以及它们如何支持或阻碍表现。
And I'm also curious about just what's lost in that model in terms of learning how to cycle one's energy up and down.
我也很好奇这个模型在学习如何上下循环能量方面到底丢失了什么。
Several times today you've mentioned this thing of the ability to relax the muscles and relax the nervous system in between sets.
今天你多次提到了在组间放松肌肉和放松神经系统的能力。
Maybe even in between reps, who knows?
甚至可能在代表之间，谁知道呢？
But usually between sets, and certainly between-
但通常是在两组之间，当然是在-
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
And sometimes between reps under certain circumstances.
有时在某些情况下在代表之间也是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Absolutely, yeah.
绝对是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, so maybe we talk about stimulants.
是的，所以也许我们谈论兴奋剂。
Before we started today, we were talking about when stimulants can actually hinder performance.
在今天开始之前，我们讨论了兴奋剂何时会真正阻碍表现。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When they can help.
当他们能帮忙的时候。
And then maybe we talk about this cycling of tension and relaxation.
然后也许我们会谈论这种紧张和放松的循环。
Because I look at training physically as a venue for exploring nervous system function and control over nervous system generally that one can apply elsewhere.
因为我将身体训练视为探索神经系统功能和对神经系统控制的一种场所，一般可以应用于其他地方。
So that's the kind of theme I'll just roll out onto the table.
这就是我将在桌面上推出的主题。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Well, first of all, I'll preface it by saying that stimulants and any kind of pharmacy is totally out of my wheelhouse, so what I'm about to say is purely reflected knowledge.
好吧，首先，我首先要说的是，兴奋剂和任何种类的药物完全超出了我的能力范围，所以我要说的纯粹是反映知识。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
With your neurobiology background, you can tell the listeners so much more than I possibly can.
凭借您的神经生物学背景，您可以告诉听众的内容比我多得多。
But top athletes, when they compete after a competition, I'm talking about strength sports like power lifting or weightlifting.
但是顶级运动员，当他们在比赛后参加比赛时，我谈论的是力量运动，例如举重或举重。
For the next two weeks, they're just gone.
接下来的两周，他们就消失了。
They're completely flat.
它们是完全平坦的。
Because there are two adaptations that take place in proper strength training.
因为适当的力量训练会发生两种适应。
So on one hand, it's much more economical function of the adrenal glands.
因此，一方面，肾上腺的功能更加经济。
On the other hand, it's much higher capacity as well.
另一方面，它的容量也更高。
So these are the guys and gals who are able to crank it up really, really high when they want to, but they're also able to really keep it down when they don't have to.
所以这些男孩和女孩能够在他们想要的时候把它调到非常非常高，但他们也能够在不需要的时候把它调低。
And they do know that for the next two weeks after the competition or after some idiotic gym max, that might take a week, they're going to be flat.
他们确实知道，在比赛结束后的接下来两周，或者在一些愚蠢的健身房极限运动之后，这可能需要一周的时间，他们将会持平。
They're going to be completely gone.
他们将彻底消失。
So you really have to spare your adrenaline.
所以你真的必须节省你的肾上腺素。
The lifters who take heavy lifts in the gym, typically they stay at the training max, not their competition max.
在健身房进行大重量举重的举重运动员通常会保持训练最大值，而不是比赛最大值。
So what's the training max?
那么训练上限是多少？
The training max, it's the heaviest weight that you can possibly lift without getting too excited about it.
训练最大重量是您在不感到太兴奋的情况下可以举起的最重重量。
And back in the '50s , Luchkin, he was one of the fathers of Soviet weightlifting.
早在 50 年代，卢奇金就是苏联举重之父之一。
He came up with a great tactic on how to find that weight.
他想出了一个关于如何找到那个重量的好策略。
If your heart rate goes up before the set, that's too heavy.
如果你的心率在训练前上升，那就太重了。
So you got to monitor yourself.
所以你要监控自己。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Unless you're in competition, of course, that's a different game.
当然，除非你参加比赛，否则那是另一场比赛。
If I will defer to others about how much one should or could take stimulants before training, lifting, I'm talking about.
如果我会听从其他人关于在训练、举重之前应该或可以服用多少兴奋剂的问题，我说的是。
But generally speaking, you got to do it in moderation.
但一般来说，你必须适度。
And especially, you got to save it for the times when you really need it.
尤其是，您必须将其保存起来以备不时之需。
Like in the American power lifting system, when you have during week three and four, that's a good time to do it.
就像在美国力量举重系统中一样，当你在第三周和第四周的时候，这是一个很好的时机。
During the weeks one and two when the weights are lighter, let your adrenals recover, and you don't need to push yourself as hard anyway.
在第一周和第二周，当重量较轻时，让你的肾上腺恢复，无论如何你都不需要强迫自己那么努力。
So it's just one example of how to go about this.
这只是如何实现这一目标的一个示例。
If you have to drink some stupid energy drink to just get yourself up to training, there's something wrong in your life, possibly.
如果你必须喝一些愚蠢的能量饮料才能让自己开始训练，那么你的生活可能出了问题。
It is something that's a lifestyle choice, and you need to address it.
这是一种生活方式的选择，你需要解决它。
If you always feel exhausted after training, you're missing out on life.
如果你在训练后总是感到精疲力尽，那么你就错过了生活。
If you're doing a desk job that does not require high cognitive ability, something that's really mechanical with pen and paper or computer, and you choose to just destroy yourself on a daily basis with a lot of sets to failure or meth-cons or whatever it is, well, it's your choice if you want to destroy your life like that.
如果你正在做一份不需要高认知能力的案头工作，一些用笔和纸或电脑来完成的非常机械的工作，并且你选择每天用大量的失败或冰毒或其他什么东西来摧毁自己，那么，如果你想像那样摧毁你的生活，这是你的选择。
But again, if you look at your adrenal profile, if you look at your sympathetic dominance, if you look at how you're just feeling, it's going to be really, really awful.
但同样，如果你看看你的肾上腺概况，如果你看看你的交感神经支配，如果你看看你的感受，那将是非常非常糟糕的。
The other angle to this is, as we talked earlier, in learning and skill training, skill practice is learning.
另一个角度是，正如我们前面所说，在学习和技能训练中，技能实践就是学习。
Current performance is not indicative of learning.
当前的表现并不代表学习。
So just because you're able to lift five pounds more because you got yourself all jacked up on some drink, doesn't mean you necessarily got stronger.
因此，仅仅因为你喝了一些酒而能够多举起五磅，并不意味着你一定会变得更强壮。
So you just need to come in and put in your practice and walk away and come back.
所以你只需要进来练习然后走开再回来。
And then when it's the day to go heavier, that's when you do that.
然后当有一天需要增加重量时，你就应该这样做。
So don't want to discourage you from drinking coffee.
所以不想阻止你喝咖啡。
In fact, if you drink a stimulant coffee, should be the only thing.
事实上，如果你喝了刺激性的咖啡，应该是唯一的事情了。
The rest of this stuff is, I don't know.
剩下的事情，我不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Coffee, tea.
咖啡、茶。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Coffee, tea, and then again, figure out what is that moderate amount.
咖啡、茶，然后再算一下适量的量是多少。
Figure out how to use it when you truly need it, as opposed to be relying on it all the time.
弄清楚如何在真正需要它时使用它，而不是一直依赖它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Would you mind before we go to the next question, if I just share with you a result that I just wanted to plant in your brain?
在我们进入下一个问题之前，如果我只是与您分享一个我只想植入您大脑中的结果，您介意吗？
Because I've been excited to tell you about this, because it's new results from the field of neuroscience that I don't think anyone's discussed anywhere, but I think you might find interesting for sake of discussion here, but also for your other work.
因为我很高兴告诉你这一点，因为这是神经科学领域的新结果，我认为没有人在任何地方讨论过，但我认为你可能会对在这里的讨论以及你的其他工作感兴趣。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
I'm looking forward to it.
我很期待。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I didn't do this study.
我没有做这个研究。
I wish I had.
我希望我有。
The study, very briefly, is interested in the neural basis of choking.
这项研究非常简单，对窒息的神经基础感兴趣。
Not choking someone out or not anything else related to choking, but when one feels that the stakes are really high and suddenly ability falls away.
不是让某人窒息，也不是与窒息相关的任何其他事情，而是当一个人感觉赌注真的很高并且突然能力消失时。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What is that?
那是什么？
So what they did is they developed this game where essentially the potential payoff in this game, while recording from neurons in the brain, is either low, medium, or very high, or the occasional jackpot.
因此，他们开发了这款游戏，在从大脑神经元记录的同时，这款游戏的潜在回报要么低，要么中等，要么非常高，或者偶尔有大奖。
Like you could just win the whole thing, and the payoff is very considerable.
就像你可以赢得整个比赛，而且回报非常可观。
Then they looked at the amount of upper motor neuron recruitment, so essentially the areas of the brain that drive coordinated muscular behavior or action.
然后他们观察了上运动神经元募集的数量，也就是驱动协调肌肉行为或动作的大脑区域。
And what they found is that it basically scales with the level of reward.
他们发现，它基本上与奖励水平成正比。
So you get more neuronal engagement as the reward scales up.
因此，随着奖励的增加，你会获得更多的神经元参与。
However, every time the jackpot was offered, it over-engages too many motor neurons.
然而，每次提供头奖时，都会过度吸引太多的运动神经元。
And so this notion of choking when the stakes are really, really high-
所以当赌注真的非常高时，这种窒息的想法——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
So you have irradiation that you cannot control pretty much.
所以你的辐射是你无法控制的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Exactly.
正是如此。
It's like spillover-
就像溢出一样——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We could call it too much excitement, but it's not adrenaline in this case, although that's probably associated with it.
我们可以称之为过于兴奋，但在这种情况下，它不是肾上腺素，尽管这可能与之相关。
But you think, "Oh, great.
但你会想：“哦，太棒了。
I'm going to get an award.
我要获奖了。
I'm going to get a bigger award.
我会获得更大的奖项。
Even bigger award.
甚至更大的奖项。
Okay.
好的。
Oh my goodness, this could change everything." And all of a sudden, performance just tanks.
天哪，这可能会改变一切。”突然之间，性能就变得坦克了。
And so it turns out it's a brain thing at the level of over-recruitment, which just speaks to this idea of being able to maintain arousal within a certain range-
所以事实证明，这是一个大脑过度招募水平的问题，这正好说明了能够将觉醒维持在一定范围内的想法——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is an essential skill to any performer.
是任何表演者的一项基本技能。
I just thought I'd share that-
我只是想分享一下-
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
That's fantastic
太棒了
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because it's a fun set of results.
因为这是一组有趣的结果。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
That's always consistent with what we know.
这始终与我们所知道的一致。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And since I was a kid, if I learn something-
从我还是个孩子的时候起，如果我学到一些东西——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I have to share it with somebody who I think might care.
我必须与我认为可能关心的人分享。
So if ever people wonder about why people choke, it is a hyperarousal at the level of the brain.
因此，如果人们想知道为什么会窒息，那就是大脑层面的过度兴奋。
Apparently not so much the body.
显然身体不那么重要。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Well, being able to control arousal, it's such a key skill for an athlete.
嗯，能够控制兴奋，这是运动员的一项关键技能。
And Part of that, obviously, it should be directed at sports psychologists, and there are some fantastic techniques.
显然，其中一部分应该针对运动心理学家，并且有一些很棒的技术。
For example, Dr. Judd Biasotto, who is an author who published a book with StrongFirst.
例如，Judd Biasotto 博士，他是一位与 StrongFirst 合作出版了一本书的作家。
Dr. Judd squatted 602 at a body weight of 132, and that was back in the '80s.
贾德博士体重 132 深蹲 602，那是 80 年代的事了。
He was in his 40s after a serious back injury surgery.
他40多岁，接受过严重的背部受伤手术。
And he's a sports psychologist, and he discusses these various skills.
他是一名运动心理学家，他讨论了这些不同的技能。
It's fascinating.
这很有趣。
His control of excitation inhibition was such that he would sleep between attempts.
他对兴奋抑制的控制使得他会在两次尝试之间睡觉。
A couple of minutes before the attempt, his handler or coach would wake him up.
尝试前几分钟，他的训练员或教练会叫醒他。
He would wake up, he would get himself into a frenzy, he'd lift the weight, he'd go back to sleep nine times a day throughout the day.
他会醒来，他会让自己陷入疯狂，他会举重，他会一天九次回去睡觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Now, that's a mastery of excitation inhibition, your on switch and off switch.
现在，这就是对兴奋抑制的掌握，即你的开关。
So part of that is sports psychology.
其中一部分是运动心理学。
There are tools in sports psychology for that.
运动心理学中有一些工具可以做到这一点。
Part of it is training is whatever you do in the gym, some of your habits and some of your practices.
训练的一部分是你在健身房所做的一切，你的一些习惯和一些练习。
Like for example, okay, David Rigert is one of the greatest weightlifters of all time.
举个例子，好吧，大卫·里格特是有史以来最伟大的举重运动员之一。
Some people would say the greatest weightlifter of all times.
有些人会说他是有史以来最伟大的举重运动员。
And when he was discovered by Rudolf Plukfelder, his coach, who was another Olympic champion, world champion.
当他被他的教练鲁道夫·普卢克菲尔德（Rudolf Plukfelder）发现时，鲁道夫·普拉克菲尔德是另一位奥运会冠军、世界冠军。
One of the things that the coach was impressed with is that Rigert would do his set, and then after his set, he would just go completely limp like a rag.
令教练印象深刻的一件事是，里格特会做他的一组，然后在他的一组之后，他会像一块抹布一样完全跛行。
And he was very impressed with that.
他对此印象深刻。
Later in Rigert's career when he was a world champion already, in the United States, so there's an American coach who writes how he saw him in Columbus, Ohio, or Cleveland, Ohio, competing back in the '70s.
在里格特职业生涯的后期，他已经在美国获得了世界冠军，所以有一位美国教练写下了他如何看到他在 70 年代在俄亥俄州哥伦布或俄亥俄州克利夫兰参加比赛。
He was lying and smoking a cigarette.
他一边说谎一边抽烟。
And then he gets up, he snatches 60 kilos, like 135 pounds or something once.
然后他站起来，一次抓起 60 公斤、135 磅之类的东西。
Then he just picks up something else equally trivial, and then he goes his first attempts and then ends up with a superior performance.
然后他只是拿起其他同样微不足道的东西，然后他进行了第一次尝试，最后取得了出色的表现。
At a different time, Rigert bet a box of cognac that he would snatch 90% of his max.
另一次，里格特与一盒白兰地打赌，他会抢走自己最大限额的 90%。
His max was probably around 370 or something.
他的上限大概是 370 左右。
So he was able to snatch 90% of that with no warm-up whatsoever.
所以他无需任何热身就能抢到 90% 的成绩。
And so this ability of that incredible control, so part of it is whatever you're born with, part of it is sports psychology techniques, but part of it's developing some habits.
这种令人难以置信的控制能力，一部分是你与生俱来的，一部分是运动心理学技术，但一部分是养成一些习惯。
As soon as you're done with your lift, just power down.
当您使用完电梯后，只需关闭电源即可。
Incidentally, after training, a strength athlete ought to perform a cool-down.
顺便说一句，训练结束后，力量运动员应该进行冷静活动。
And Russians did some numbers on powerlifters, and they found that the top powerlifters, they spend time in cool-down.
俄罗斯人对举重运动员进行了一些统计，他们发现顶级举重运动员会花时间进行放松。
And the guys who are not so good, they don't.
而那些不太优秀的人，他们就不会。
Because not only it just allows you to bring your excitation down, gets you parasympathetic, gets you to start recovering.
因为它不仅可以让你降低兴奋度，让你副交感神经兴奋，让你开始恢复。
So you do some easy stretching, you do some meditating, you do some breathing exercises, whatever you do.
所以你做一些简单的伸展运动，做一些冥想，做一些呼吸练习，无论你做什么。
But even after each set, so you put up that heavy deadlift or squat, and then you just immediately come down, and then you walk around and you chill.
但即使在每组之后，你进行大重量的硬拉或深蹲，然后你就立即下来，然后你走来走去，你就会感到寒冷。
So you just try to tune your switch so much.
所以你只要尝试调整你的开关就可以了。
Breathing exercises come in handy for that.
呼吸练习对此很有用。
There are breathing exercises to increase your excitation.
有呼吸练习可以增加您的兴奋度。
There are breathing exercises that are able to very much put you in a state of inhibition, very deep inhibition even.
有些呼吸练习可以让你处于一种非常抑制的状态，甚至是非常深度的抑制。
Some of them are hypercapnic, some of them are hypoxic, which means you try to increase carbon dioxide or you're trying to decrease oxygen.
其中一些是高碳酸血症，一些是低氧血症，这意味着您试图增加二氧化碳或减少氧气。
There are some very sophisticated, yet really quite simple techniques that can help you do that.
有一些非常复杂但又非常简单的技术可以帮助您做到这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love this concept of just learning to push on the accelerator, push on the brake, and to play with disinhibition.
我喜欢这个概念，即学习踩油门，踩刹车，并玩去抑制。
As a first person to come on this podcast, even among the neuroscientists I've spoken with to talk about disinhibition.
作为第一个来这个播客的人，甚至是我采访过的讨论去抑制的神经科学家之一。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Really?
真的吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So thank you for bringing that up.
谢谢你提出这个问题。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Well, the history of that-
嗯，那段历史——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a beautiful concept and an important one for how we function.
这是一个美好的概念，对于我们的运作方式来说也是一个重要的概念。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
That absolutely is.
那绝对是。
The original research was done in the '60s, Ekai and Steinhaus, 1961, I believe.
我相信，最初的研究是在 20 世纪 60 年代，Ekai 和 Steinhaus 于 1961 年完成的。
And then later on, that was a big part of the training method of Dr. Fred Hatfield.
后来，这成为弗雷德·哈特菲尔德博士训练方法的重要组成部分。
Fred Hatfield is a legend in the iron game.
弗雷德·哈特菲尔德 (Fred Hatfield) 是铁杆比赛中的传奇人物。
He was one of the first to squat 1,000 pounds in competition.
他是第一个在比赛中深蹲 1000 磅的人之一。
He was just a fantastic lifter and just a brilliant scientist.
他是一位出色的举重运动员，也是一位杰出的科学家。
So he tried to direct a lot of the training towards disinhibition.
因此，他尝试将大量训练转向去抑制。
So he even developed special techniques that are largely forgotten, ironically.
因此，讽刺的是，他甚至开发了基本上被遗忘的特殊技术。
But yes, disinhibition is huge.
但是，抑制解除是巨大的。
One of the things about disinhibition too, it's also very important to avoid failing because never failing a lift, that's part of disinhibition.
关于抑制解除的事情之一，避免失败也非常重要，因为永远不要失败，这是抑制解除的一部分。
So like we talked about Ed Coan earlier, another one of the powerlifting greats.
就像我们之前谈到的埃德·科恩一样，他是另一位举重巨星。
Ed Coan competed over several decades, set over 72 world records in several weight classes.
艾德·科恩 (Ed Coan) 参加比赛数十年，在多个重量级别创造了超过 72 项世界纪录。
Only missed a couple of lifts in competition, never missed a training lift whatsoever.
只在比赛中错过了几次举重，从未错过任何训练举重。
Always calm, always composed, an amazing lifter, amazing guy.
总是冷静，总是沉着，一个了不起的举重运动员，一个了不起的人。
And what's very likely happened is that his inhibitory pathways just shriveled and got pruned and died.
很可能发生的情况是，他的抑制通路萎缩、被修剪并死亡。
What people don't realize that greasing the groove, that's the proper term, long-term potentiation is like when you are getting better at, like that transmission gets stronger.
人们没有意识到，润滑凹槽，这是正确的术语，长期增强就像当你变得越来越擅长时，就像传输变得更强一样。
It's like your nerves become superconductors.
就像你的神经变成了超导体。
But there's also its evil twin, long-term depression.
但还有它的邪恶双胞胎，长期抑郁症。
So pretty much what happens is now you're trying as hard, but your muscles are not jumping in response anymore.
所以几乎发生的情况是，现在你正在努力尝试，但你的肌肉不再做出反应。
So one of the ways to get this long-term depression is by failing.
因此，导致这种长期抑郁的方法之一就是失败。
So whenever you're attempting a certain thing and if it doesn't happen, that pathway starts firing weaker and the inhibitory pathways start to become stronger.
因此，每当你尝试某件事时，如果它没有发生，该通路就会开始减弱，而抑制通路就会开始变得更强。
And it becomes even worse if you're emotional about it.
如果你对此感到情绪化，情况会变得更糟。
So you said quite a few things about adrenaline.
所以你说了很多关于肾上腺素的事情。
But Adrenaline does promote neuroplasticity, but not always in a good way.
但肾上腺素确实能促进神经可塑性，但并不总是以一种好的方式。
So if you look at the PTSD treatments, you will find that if a person re-experiences that bad, whatever thing that happened, and then it gets into the feedback loop, that positive feedback.
因此，如果你看看创伤后应激障碍的治疗方法，你会发现，如果一个人重新经历了糟糕的经历，无论发生了什么，然后它就会进入反馈循环，即积极的反馈。
Positive doesn't mean good.
积极并不意味着好的。
Positive, it just means it keeps increasing it.
积极的，这只是意味着它不断增加。
Because every time that there's a spike of adrenaline, that reinforces the memory.
因为每当肾上腺素激增时，记忆就会增强。
So if you miss the attempt and you also got really upset about it, and then you remember it again, so you're making yourself weaker and weaker.
因此，如果你错过了这次尝试，并且你也对此感到非常沮丧，然后你又想起了它，那么你就会让自己变得越来越虚弱。
Which reminds me of a very fascinating way that the ancients used to record some events before there was writing.
这让我想起古人在有文字之前用来记录一些事件的一种非常有趣的方式。
So let's say there's a wedding between VIP families.
假设 VIP 家庭之间正在举行婚礼。
They bring a kid, young kid, seven year old, let's say, and make the kid watch the whole thing.
他们带了一个孩子，小孩子，比如说七岁的孩子，让孩子观看整个过程。
And after the festivities, they throw the kid into the river.
庆祝活动结束后，他们把孩子扔进河里。
The kid crawls out of the river.
孩子从河里爬了出来。
And he doesn't know to, he doesn't expect it.
他不知道，他也不期待。
And the kid climbs out of the river, and he's going to remember that wedding for the rest of his life.
孩子从河里爬了出来，他将终生记住那场婚礼。
He's going to hold that record.
他将保持这一纪录。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because of the adrenaline spike associated-
由于肾上腺素激增 -
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Exactly
正是如此
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with the cold water.
用冷水。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
So that really did increase the neuroplasticity so that memory became really deeply ingrained.
所以这确实增加了神经可塑性，使记忆变得根深蒂固。
So yeah, part of disinhibition is not promoting inhibition.
所以，是的，去抑制的一部分并不是促进抑制。
Is just not failing.
只是没有失败。
So Fred Hatfield had a beautiful line, "Success begets success.
弗雷德·哈特菲尔德（Fred Hatfield）有一句优美的台词：“成功带来成功。
Failure begets failure." Train to success, not to failure.
失败会导致失败。”训练是为了成功，而不是失败。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you recommend actually avoiding training to muscular failure?
您是否建议实际上避免肌肉衰竭的训练？
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
There is really no reason for that.
确实没有理由这样做。
If you're doing that with single joint bodybuilding exercises like curls, it probably doesn't matter.
如果你通过弯举等单关节健美运动来做到这一点，那可能并不重要。
And if you're doing it for bodybuilding.
如果你是为了健美而这样做。
But I still don't see the point, because every rep closer to failure, that is going to increase exponentially your recovery time.
但我仍然不明白这一点，因为每一次接近失败的代表都会成倍增加你的恢复时间。
So you're not going to get quite as much ...
所以你不会得到那么多......
Yeah, you might get more muscle gain from that particular last rep, but your recovery is going to be increased so much.
是的，你可能会从最后一次重复中获得更多的肌肉，但你的恢复也会大大增加。
And also, as you start training to failure, you're converting more of your fibers towards slower types.
而且，当你开始训练到力竭时，你会将更多的纤维转变为较慢的类型。
So on the other hand, if you don't train to failure, you don't.
所以另一方面，如果你不训练到力竭，你就不会。
So there's an interesting Spanish study when they found that when athletes train to failure, again, some of the myosin and type 2X fast fibers, they converted to 2A.
西班牙有一项有趣的研究，他们发现，当运动员训练到力竭时，一些肌球蛋白和 2X 型快纤维会再次转化为 2A 型。
So they became slower.
所以他们变得更慢了。
Probably because now it's an endurance event.
可能是因为现在是耐力赛。
When you're training for as many reps as possible, it's really an endurance event.
当您进行尽可能多的重复训练时，这实际上是一项耐力活动。
On the other hand, the athletes that trained with half the maximum possible repetitions, they did not experience that decline.
另一方面，那些以最大可能重复次数一半进行训练的运动员并没有经历这种下降。
Which goes back several decades to when Arkady Vorobyov, Olympic champion, scientist, head coach, incredible person.
这可以追溯到几十年前阿尔卡季·沃罗比约夫(Arkady Vorobyov)，他是奥运会冠军、科学家、主教练、不可思议的人。
He said there is a big difference between six sets of three and three sets of six.
他说，六组三人和三组六人之间有很大区别。
And you think like, "Well, this sounds like the most obvious thing to say." But the fact is you build just as much strength with six sets of three as three sets of six.
你会想，“嗯，这听起来是最明显的事情。”但事实是，六组三组和三组六组所获得的力量是一样多的。
You get a lot less tired.
你会减轻很多疲劳。
You get to practice for three extra sets, and you can train sooner.
你可以额外练习三组，这样你就可以更快地训练。
So that's fundamental.
所以这是根本性的。
So pushing to failure.
所以推向失败。
Also, the other thing is about the control of your technique.
另外，另一件事是关于你的技术的控制。
Towards the last reps, there's no control left.
到了最后的次数，就没有控制权了。
But imagine that you always have that perfect technique, so you grease that pathway.
但想象一下，你总是拥有完美的技术，所以你可以润滑这条道路。
That becomes a reflex.
这成为一种反射。
In fact, early on, the Soviet sports scientists very much viewed strength adaptation as just the development of conditional reflex.
事实上，很早就，苏联体育科学家非常认为力量适应只是条件反射的发展。
Kind of like Pavlov with the dogs, drooling dogs.
有点像巴甫洛夫和狗，流口水的狗。
And then you go into the competition and you psych yourself up and you don't even know what's going on.
然后你进入比赛，你让自己兴奋起来，你甚至不知道发生了什么。
You're not aware.
你不知道。
But you only have one pathway.
但你只有一条路。
There's no plan B.
没有B计划。
You only remember how to do your deadlift in this particular manner, no any other way.
你只记得如何以这种特定的方式进行硬拉，没有任何其他方式。
So-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The neurons are trained to complete the execution of the movement.
神经元被训练来完成运动的执行。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Exactly.
正是如此。
And only in a very specific way.
而且只能以一种非常具体的方式。
Because there's no plan B.
因为没有B计划。
When you start failure, so you start, "Okay.
当你开始失败时，你就会开始说：“好吧。
This is the stressful situation, so I revert to plan B." But there's plan B for amateurs.
这是压力很大的情况，所以我恢复了B计划。”但对于业余爱好者来说还有一个B计划。
Top athletes don't have plan B.
顶尖运动员没有B计划。
Watch a top lifter fail an attempt.
观看顶级举重运动员尝试失败。
He or she is going to shake with that bar, shake and finally it's going to come down.
他或她会用那根棒子摇晃，摇晃，最后它会落下来。
But it's not like the butt's going to shoot up or something ugly is going to happen.
但这并不意味着屁股会翘起或发生一些丑陋的事情。
So going back to that point you made earlier about the quality of practice.
回到你之前提到的关于练习质量的观点。
Quality is absolutely paramount.
质量绝对是最重要的。
And strength training is a skill practice.
而力量训练是一种技能练习。
Any athletic training is a skill practice.
任何运动训练都是一种技能练习。
Maybe riding the elliptical is not a skill practice, but it's not a sport anyway.
也许骑椭圆机不是一项技能练习，但无论如何它也不是一项运动。
It's not anything.
这不是什么。
Even hiking is a practice.
甚至徒步旅行也是一种练习。
You're trying to stay tall.
你正在努力保持身高。
You're trying to breathe in a particular manner.
你尝试以一种特定的方式呼吸。
It's all practice.
这都是练习。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The crossovers between physical training and mental pursuits are astonishing to me.
身体训练和精神追求之间的交叉令我惊讶。
As we're talking about this, avoiding going to failure.
当我们谈论这个时，避免失败。
I'm in the process of writing my first book.
我正在写我的第一本书。
I know you've written several books, and I'm finding it to be very different than anything else I've ever done.
我知道你写了几本书，我发现它与我以前写过的任何书都非常不同。
And the experienced writers tell me that you should end on a sentence where you kind of know what the next sentence could be.
经验丰富的作家告诉我，你应该以一个你知道下一句话可能是什么的句子结尾。
Perhaps to seed the unconscious mind for the next day, but that you don't want to run right up until a wall and bang your head against that wall, metaphorically speaking.
或许是为了在第二天的潜意识中播下种子，但打个比方来说，你不想跑到墙上然后用头撞墙。
Because it places a kind of frustration into your nervous system that you arrive to the page with the next day.
因为它会给你的神经系统带来一种挫败感，让你第二天到达该页面。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Interesting.
有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I guess the opposite could be argued too, but it fits very well with what we're talking about here.
我想相反的情况也可以争论，但这非常适合我们在这里讨论的内容。
Because of the early Mike Mentzer training, or the influence I should say, I've tended to train to failure, purposefully, and used to do forced reps and drop sets and all that stuff.
由于早期迈克·门泽尔（Mike Mentzer）的训练，或者我应该说的影响，我倾向于有目的地训练到力竭，并习惯于做强迫次数和递减组等等。
As the years have gone by, I've started only incorporating a few sets to failure and my volume has increased somewhat, and I'm training heavier at lower repetitions.
随着时间的流逝，我开始只进行几组至力竭的训练，并且我的训练量有所增加，并且我正在以较低的重复次数进行更重的训练。
And my progress as I get toward my fifth decade just continues.
当我迈入第五个十年时，我的进步仍在继续。
And so I just decided, as you were saying your last couple of sentences, that for the rest of the year, I'm going to not train to failure because I-
所以我决定，就像你最后几句话所说的那样，在今年剩下的时间里，我不会训练到失败，因为我-
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Excellent
优秀
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
really want to experience what it's like to do that for a long period of time, as opposed to just reducing the number of sets that I take to failure.
我真的很想体验长期这样做的感觉，而不是仅仅减少失败的组数。
I'm very stringent about form and always have been, and I do want to ask, what are your thoughts on, unless somebody's training for isometric or eccentric-specific training, full range of motion, not just for sake of building strength, but can using a full range of motion also improve flexibility without some dedicated flexibility training?
我对形式非常严格，一直以来，我确实想问，你的想法是什么，除非有人进行等长或偏心特定训练，全方位运动训练，不仅仅是为了增强力量，而且使用全方位运动也可以在没有专门的灵活性训练的情况下提高灵活性吗？
And I'd like to use this as a segue to talk about flexibility training.
我想以此为契机来谈谈灵活性训练。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Yes, it can.
是的，可以。
So sarcomeres can grow in length as well.
因此肌节也可以增长。
So the contractile part of the muscle, they can grow lengthwise as well.
因此，肌肉的收缩部分也可以纵向生长。
It's something that needs to be done carefully and cautiously, of course, and it's not with heavy weights.
当然，这是需要小心谨慎地完成的事情，而且不是大重量的。
Eventually, it's possible for a person to perform flexibility feats with heavier weights if it is desirable.
最终，如果需要的话，一个人可以用更重的重量来完成灵活性的壮举。
But initially, it's something go lighter.
但一开始，事情会变得更轻松。
So yes, absolutely you can and it's one of the easiest way to promote flexibility.
所以，是的，绝对可以，而且这是提高灵活性的最简单方法之一。
And flexibility also has very much a neural component as well.
灵活性也有很大的神经成分。
So part of it, obviously, you're looking at what's happening in the joints, of course.
显然，其中一部分是你要观察关节中发生的情况。
Part you're looking at the length of the tissues, too.
您也在查看纸巾的长度。
But a lot of it is also the ability to reset the regulation of muscle length and tension.
但其中很大一部分也是重置肌肉长度和张力调节的能力。
So it's like the ability to do a split, for example.
例如，这就像进行分裂的能力。
Part of it is, yeah, well, provided your hip joints are built for that sort of thing, a lot of it is really in your mind because you're experiencing defensive inhibition.
是的，部分原因是，如果你的髋关节是为这类事情而生的，那么很多事情实际上都在你的脑海中，因为你正在经历防御性抑制。
You're just afraid you're going to get torn in half.
你只是害怕自己会被撕成两半。
Which brings us to a very interesting parallel as we keep talking about quality, and it's also talked about that flow channel by Professor-
当我们不断谈论质量时，这给我们带来了一个非常有趣的相似之处，而且教授也谈到了流动渠道——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Csikszentmihalyi
奇克森特米哈伊
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Thank you.
谢谢。
So between boredom and anxiety.
所以介于无聊和焦虑之间。
So when you're trying to do a split, for example, so you see somebody trying to get into that stretch, and that person goes, "Oh," sitting there and panicking and being in total pain and nothing good is going to happen.
例如，当你试图进行劈叉时，你看到有人试图进入那个伸展状态，而那个人会说，“哦，”坐在那里，惊慌失措，完全痛苦，什么好事都不会发生。
You're pretty much just facilitating these pain pathways, and you're just learning to hate this exercise.
你几乎只是在促进这些疼痛途径，而且你只是开始讨厌这个练习。
A smarter individual would get to the point, to the edge of pain, and then stay there for a while, then owning it until the spindles reset.
一个更聪明的人会直奔主题，到达痛苦的边缘，然后在那里停留一段时间，然后拥有它，直到主轴重置。
Okay, accept the new range of motion.
好的，接受新的运动范围。
Add some contraction, relaxation, contraction, relaxation, isometric stretching.
添加一些收缩、放松、收缩、放松、等长拉伸。
Progress even further.
更进一步。
So in any type of training, forcing the adaptations is not going to work, whether it's flexibility, whether it's strength, whether it's endurance.
所以在任何类型的训练中，强迫适应都是行不通的，无论是灵活性、力量还是耐力。
There's time for a very high level of effort, but there's never time for ripping yourself in half, right?
有时间付出很大的努力，但永远没有时间把自己撕成两半，对吧？
There's never time for hurting yourself on purpose.
从来没有时间故意伤害自己。
But yes, do long range of motion work to increase range of motion.
但是，是的，做长范围的运动可以增加运动范围。
For the upper body, I'm obviously very partial towards kettlebells, but one of the great many benefits of kettlebell training, a ball with a handle, is the way it's designed.
对于上半身，我显然非常偏爱壶铃，但壶铃训练的众多好处之一是带有手柄的球，它的设计方式。
So you press it from here overhead.
所以你从这里按过头顶。
That offsets center of gravity, helps to pull your arm back.
这会抵消重心，有助于将手臂向后拉。
So you're just improving the shoulder flexion.
所以你只是在改善肩部屈曲。
You're improving thoracic extension.
你正在改善胸部伸展。
It's so much easier to place yourself in exactly good position and then just stay there.
将自己置于正确的位置然后呆在那里要容易得多。
So it's very important to stay open to keep that useful posture and keep that good shoulder function.
因此，保持开放以保持有用的姿势并保持良好的肩部功能非常重要。
But yeah, with squats, you can definitely do that just very progressively.
但是，是的，通过深蹲，你绝对可以非常渐进地做到这一点。
One warning about squats.
关于深蹲的一个警告。
If you're going for a parallel squat, like it is in powerlifting, it's a parallel defined as the top of the knee is a little higher than the crease on the hip.
如果你要进行平行深蹲，就像力量举中的那样，那么平行深蹲的定义是膝盖顶部略高于臀部折痕。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People will argue about this in some comical ways from time to time.
人们时不时会以一些滑稽的方式争论这个问题。
So when parallel is not right angle at the knee, correct?
那么当膝盖处的平行不是直角时，对吗？
It's parallel at the top of the-
它在顶部平行-
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Yeah.
是的。
Correct
正确
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
top of the thigh.
大腿顶部。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I realize you said it very clearly, but I'm just making sure because debates abound on the internet.
我知道你说得很清楚，但我只是确定一下，因为互联网上有很多争论。
The top of the thigh should be parallel to the floor.
大腿顶部应与地面平行。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Well-
嗯-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or deeper.
或者更深一些。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Yeah.
是的。
But when you do go for that depth or somewhere in that ballpark, you can go wide in the stance.
但当你确实要达到那个深度或某个大致范围时，你可以将站位拉得更宽。
You can progressively increase the width of the stance if you do it for flexibility.
如果您为了灵活性而这样做，可以逐渐增加站姿的宽度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
There have been people who are doing squats in almost like a horse stance style squats and progressively developing great level of flexibility.
有些人以几乎像马站式的深蹲方式进行深蹲，并逐渐发展出高水平的灵活性。
It's possible to do that.
这样做是可能的。
But you're going wider, but not necessarily deeper.
但你会走得更广，但不一定更深。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
So it's okay to go wider, but still your femur should not be dipping too much.
所以加宽是可以的，但你的股骨仍然不应该倾斜太多。
So if you're trying to go rock bottom in a wide stance, your hip architecture is not designed for that.
因此，如果您想以宽站距到达最低点，那么您的臀部结构就不是为此而设计的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
So like Tom Platz, famous for squatting very, very deep.
就像汤姆·普拉茨（Tom Platz）一样，他以蹲得很深而闻名。
Like glutes-
就像臀肌一样——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
But he used a narrow stance.
但他采取了狭隘的立场。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it.
明白了。
So glutes-
所以臀肌——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
He started with that
他从那开始
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
on calves practically.
几乎在小腿上。
But he was a shorter guy, right?
但他是个矮个子，对吧？
Does that help?
这有帮助吗？
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
He was, but also he was also squatting in a pretty narrow stance.
他确实是，但他也以一种相当狭窄的姿势蹲着。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
So in this particular case, you're not experiencing with the hip limitation right there, so it's okay for you.
因此，在这种特殊情况下，您并没有遇到髋部限制，所以这对您来说没有问题。
But imagine if you try to go wider and then you try to go-- It's just, again, this is not a good idea.
但想象一下，如果你尝试走得更宽，然后你尝试走——这又不是一个好主意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Then you could end up on the floor.
然后你可能会倒在地板上。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Literally on the floor.
字面意思是在地板上。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
If you want to develop, here's a great way to develop flexibility for this type of rock bottom squat if you're not there yet.
如果你想发展这种深蹲的灵活性，如果你还没有达到这种程度的话，这里有一个很好的方法。
Initially, even without resistance, assume your normal squat stance.
最初，即使没有阻力，也要采取正常的蹲姿。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
And I'm talking about a narrow stance, shoulder width or somewhere there.
我说的是窄站距、肩宽或其他地方。
And approach the wall.
并靠近墙壁。
Face the wall.
面向墙壁。
Put your arms out and start squatting.
伸出双臂并开始蹲下。
And you will find the wall is going to teach you.
你会发现这堵墙会教你。
So it is the feedback from the wall.
所以这是来自墙壁的反馈。
If you start doing something funny with your spine, you're going to hit your head on the wall and fall back.
如果你开始用你的脊椎做一些有趣的事情，你就会把头撞到墙上然后向后倒去。
So it provides terrific feedback.
所以它提供了很好的反馈。
It is something that I learned originally from a Chikung practitioner, and again, quite a number of skills that by system are picked up from martial arts.
这是我最初从一个气功练习者那里学到的东西，而且，很多技能都是从武术中系统地学到的。
But we applied that at StrongFirst.
但我们在 StrongFirst 中应用了这一点。
We use that for teaching people that upright squat and developing the mobility for deep squat.
我们用它来教人们直立深蹲并发展深蹲的灵活性。
It's foolproof.
这是万无一失的。
It's like Greg Cook would call this a self-correcting exercise, and those are really the best.
就像格雷格·库克（Greg Cook）所说的那样，这是一种自我纠正练习，而这些确实是最好的。
When the coach can walk away and have a cigarette and the student is still going to be able to do it right.
当教练可以走开并抽烟时，学生仍然能够做得正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love your book, "Relax Into Stretch." I think it's a really important concept, this idea that the nervous system and our mental state is preventing, inhibiting a good amount of our natural flexibility, and that we can work with the mental state and progressive relaxation and contraction of muscles and related tissues to kind of-
我喜欢你的书《放松伸展》。我认为这是一个非常重要的概念，这个想法是神经系统和我们的精神状态正在阻止、抑制我们的自然灵活性，并且我们可以通过精神状态以及肌肉和相关组织的渐进式放松和收缩来——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
We absolutely can, and it's very much mind over the matter.
我们绝对可以，而且我们非常关心这个问题。
I have a great success story.
我有一个伟大的成功故事。
So one of my senior instructors at StrongFirst, Steve Freides.
我在 StrongFirst 的一位高级讲师 Steve Freides。
So met him a couple of decades ago, and he had a severe back injury.
几十年前我认识了他，当时他背部受了严重的伤。
So he spent eight or nine months in bed on Percocet, and he was not athletic.
因此，他在床上躺了八九个月，服用了Percocet，但他的运动能力并不好。
He'd done some jogging or things like that in the past.
他过去曾做过一些慢跑或类似的事情。
And he decided to get serious about getting strong.
他决定认真地变得坚强。
So he healed up until he was healthy.
于是他就痊愈了，直到恢复健康为止。
He started lifting kettlebells.
他开始举壶铃。
Then after that, he started power lifting, and he started doing proper stretching like this.
然后他就开始举重，开始像这样做适当的伸展运动。
So right now, Steve is in his late 60s.
现在，史蒂夫已经 60 多岁了。
He holds a bunch of American Masters records in the deadlift, even though his back was totally messed up.
他保持着多项美国大师赛硬拉记录，尽管他的背部完全受伤了。
Lifts without a belt.
无需皮带即可举升。
You can break your fist on his abs.
你可以用拳头打他的腹肌。
I like having people punch.
我喜欢让人打拳。
"Would you please punch Steve?
“你能打史蒂夫一下吗？
Just don't hurt yourself." But he also worked up to suspended side splits and at that point, he was probably in his 50s when he did that.
只是不要伤害自己。”但他也曾尝试过暂停侧劈叉，当时他可能已经 50 多岁了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
And maybe 60s, possibly.
也许是 60 年代。
And then he even competed in this crazy all-around meets where there's one lift where you hang between two chairs, and then you pick up a dumbbell from the ground.
然后他甚至参加了一场疯狂的全能比赛，其中有一个升降机，你挂在两把椅子之间，然后你从地上拿起一个哑铃。
You can find the footage somewhere on the internet.
您可以在互联网上的某个地方找到该片段。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
So here's a man who did not take his injury lying down.
所以这是一个没有躺下接受伤害的人。
So once he was cleared to train, he decided to approach his training with the attitude of a musician because he's a music professor.
因此，一旦他获准接受训练，他就决定以音乐家的态度来接受训练，因为他是一名音乐教授。
And in my experience, that people who could become very successful in strength, musicians and martial artists are among the people who can succeed because they're used to practice for many hours.
根据我的经验，那些能够在力量方面取得巨大成功的人、音乐家和武术家都是能够成功的人，因为他们习惯了长时间的练习。
They're used to paying attention to small detail, and they're used to doing whatever other people consider boring over and over.
他们习惯于关注小细节，也习惯于一遍又一遍地做别人认为无聊的事情。
So again, here is this 60-some-year-old man with abs you can break your hands on, deadlift records, and full splits.
再说一遍，这位 60 多岁的男人拥有令人惊叹的腹肌、硬拉记录和完全劈叉。
That's what a human mind is capable of.
这就是人类思维的能力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love this concept of a practice or of practice, not of a practice.
我喜欢这种实践或实践的概念，而不是实践的概念。
But instead of training, I always thought training is such a better word than working out, and it probably is, but I think practice is such a better verb than-
但我一直认为“训练”这个词比“锻炼”更好，而且可能是这样，但我认为“练习”是一个比-更好的动词。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Training is also good, of course.
当然，培训也很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
But practice, it puts you in the right frame of mind.
但是练习，它会让你处于正确的心态。
You imagine the word workout, like Letterman quote, he literally worked himself out.
你可以想象“锻炼”这个词，就像莱特曼引用的那样，他确实锻炼了自己。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As long as you're highlighting remarkable instances of people in the second half of their life, let's say, getting quite strong, developing impressive skills.
只要你强调人们在后半生的非凡事例，比如说，变得非常强壮，发展出令人印象深刻的技能。
Before we started recording today, you were relaying to us that your father has acquired some significant strength.
在我们今天开始录制之前，您向我们透露您的父亲已经获得了一些重要的力量。
Could you just share some of his-
你能分享一些他的——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Oh, sure
哦，当然
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
his abilities to inspire both the people in the second half of their life or so, and to motivate/intimidate the younger ones and get them going because they really have no excuse.
他有能力激励人们的后半生左右，并激励/恐吓年轻人并让他们继续前进，因为他们真的没有借口。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
I'm very proud of my parents, and they're both 87 years old, and my father has always been an athlete.
我为我的父母感到非常自豪，他们都已经 87 岁了，而且我的父亲一直是一名运动员。
And then at the age of 71, I brought him to power lifting meet, and I see him in the warm-up area picking up 225 pounds with bad form.
然后在71岁的时候，我带他去参加举重比赛，我看到他在热身区举起225磅的重物，但状态很糟糕。
I was like, "Dad, what are you doing?" He got interested.
我当时就想：“爸爸，你在做什么？”他感兴趣了。
So fast-forward a few years, and by the time he was 75, he had several American records in several weight classes.
几年过去了，到他 75 岁的时候，他已经在多个重量级别上创造了多项美国纪录。
And he deadlifted in the low 400s without a belt.
他在没有腰带的情况下硬拉了 400 米以下。
Body weight of 198.
体重198。
And in fact, back at that point when Professor Stuart McGill, who is a very good friend of mine, he came to watch my dad.
事实上，就在那时，我的好朋友斯图尔特·麦吉尔教授来观察我的父亲。
I think he pulled like 385 for a triple before a competition at Gold's Gym Venice.
我认为在威尼斯 Gold's Gym 比赛之前他的三垒打成绩是 385 分。
And Stu examined his back, and he said he had a muscularity in the back of a 40-year-old.
斯图检查了他的背部，他说他的背部肌肉发达，就像一个40岁的人一样。
So I thought it was pretty cool.
所以我觉得这很酷。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Awesome.
太棒了。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
So he's not deadlifting right now because an old injury caught up to him.
所以他现在没有进行硬拉是因为他受了旧伤。
He fell off a tracked vehicle.
他从履带车上摔下来。
Imagine a tank without a gun.
想象一下没有枪的坦克。
A military tracked vehicle on ice in the winter and about 40 years ago, and there are some things that caught up to him.
大约 40 年前的冬天，一辆军用履带式车辆在冰上行驶，有些事情让他着迷。
So he cannot deadlift right now, but he still twice a week, he does over 50 pull-ups in total.
所以他现在不能硬拉，但他还是每周两次，总共做50多个引体向上。
And at least twice a week, he does over 100 perfect body weight squats, like power lifting style squats.
他每周至少进行两次 100 多次完美自重深蹲，例如举重式深蹲。
And he does that.
他就是这么做的。
He does push-ups and things like that.
他做俯卧撑之类的事情。
So he just stays on top of that, and he's still maintaining very good strength, very good muscularity.
所以他只是保持这一点，并且仍然保持着非常好的力量和肌肉。
So the approach to building muscle for him is that same volume with medium reps and medium effort.
因此，为他增肌的方法是相同的训练量、中等次数和中等强度。
It always works because it builds strength, it builds muscle, it's very safe.
它总是有效，因为它可以增强力量，增强肌肉，而且非常安全。
It's very enjoyable.
这是非常愉快的。
And my mother, she used to be a professional ballerina, and she got started training since she was six, so because she had to train all day, she hates exercise, but she still does it because she must.
我的母亲，她曾经是一名职业芭蕾舞演员，她从六岁起就开始训练，所以因为她必须整天训练，所以她讨厌运动，但她仍然这样做，因为她必须这样做。
And she came up with a great anti-glycolytic training protocol for herself.
她为自己想出了一个很好的抗糖酵解训练方案。
So this is something she invented.
所以这是她发明的东西。
I had nothing to do with it, but it just totally goes with Verkhoshansky's work.
我与它无关，但这完全符合 Verkhoshansky 的工作。
She climbs stairs at a high-rise, and she will climb stairs from one floor to the next.
她爬高楼的楼梯，她会从一层爬楼梯到下一层。
She'll walk the hallway, come back, and then go to the next floor.
她会走过走廊，回来，然后去下一层。
So that's the same idea that Verkhoshansky had.
这与维尔霍尚斯基的想法是一样的。
Intensify the intensity of contraction and then give a little time for the acid not to pile up, so you keep that effort creatine phosphate powered and aerobic powered.
加强收缩强度，然后留出一点时间，让酸不堆积起来，这样你就能保持磷酸肌酸动力和有氧动力。
And so she does it for 17 floors or whatever a few times a week and plus other things.
所以她每周都会做几次 17 层楼或其他的事情，还有其他事情。
But yeah, I'm very fortunate, very proud of my parents.
但是，是的，我很幸运，为我的父母感到骄傲。
My father-in-law, Roger, he's a great example and a great grease-the-groove success story.
我的岳父罗杰，他是一个很好的榜样，也是一个伟大的成功故事。
So he's a retired firefighter and Marine, and at the age of 64-- And he always lifted.
他是一名退休消防员和海军陆战队员，现年 64 岁——而且他总是举重。
Very unusual for his generation.
对于他这一代人来说非常不寻常。
He started when he was 15 and never stopped.
他从 15 岁开始就从未停止过。
But he couldn't quite do 20 pull-ups when he was a Marine.
但当他还是一名海军陆战队员时，他连 20 个引体向上都做不了。
So at the age of 64, he got on the grease-the-groove protocol.
因此，在 64 岁时，他开始了“润滑脂”计划。
So at that point, his max was 10 reps.
所以那时他的最大次数是 10 次。
So I said, "Roger, every time you go by the pull-up bar, hit five.
所以我说，“收到，每次你经过引体向上杆时，打五。
And when they become really, really easy, then you can add a rep." Well, a few months later, when he worked up to nine daily reps, he tested, he could do 20 pull-ups.
当它们变得非常非常容易时，你就可以添加一个代表。”几个月后，当他每天练习 9 次时，他测试说，他可以做 20 次引体向上。
So at 64, he finally aced the US Marine Corps pull-up PT test, something that he couldn't do as a young jarhead.
因此，64 岁时，他终于在美国海军陆战队引体向上 PT 测试中取得了优异成绩，这是他年轻时无法做到的。
And, yeah, seeing these older folks who are not taking their age lying down and taking their training very seriously, it's just very admirable.
是的，看到这些老年人并没有对自己的年龄视而不见，而是非常认真地对待他们的训练，这真是令人钦佩。
And you see much younger people start complaining.
你会看到很多年轻人开始抱怨。
Some 30-year-old comes, "Well, I'm aging, I'm getting older.
一些 30 岁的人会说：“好吧，我变老了，我变老了。
What should I do?" It's like, "What's wrong with you, son?" You know?
我该怎么办？”就像，“你怎么了，儿子？”你知道？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I completely agree.
是的，我完全同意。
These are inspiring stories, truly inspiring, and people of all ages should pay attention.
这些都是励志故事，真正励志，各个年龄段的人都应该关注。
It's not done in one leap.
这不是一蹴而就的。
There's the progressive-
还有进步的——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Of course
当然
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
nature to it.
自然对它。
And I think not training to failure is resurfacing in my mind now as we have this discussion.
我认为，当我们进行这次讨论时，“不要训练到力竭”这个问题再次出现在我的脑海中。
The idea isn't to grind, it's to just grease the groove, get in there, and do it as a-
这个想法不是研磨，而是只是润滑凹槽，进入那里，然后像-
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
That's right
没错
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
practice.
练习。
Actually, I'm going to change my language around this.
事实上，我会围绕这个改变我的语言。
I realize that when I call it a practice as a noun, it's not as effective as practice as a verb.
我意识到，当我将其称为名词实践时，它不如动词实践那么有效。
I'm going to practice.
我要去练习一下。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just for me.
只为我。
This is just my own internal thing.
这只是我自己内心的事情。
My neuroses insist that I share this.
我的神经症坚持要我分享这个。
But I do think that semantics are important, as you pointed out before, because it has a lot to do with how we feel about ourselves, and what we think we're capable of.
但我确实认为语义很重要，正如您之前指出的，因为它与我们对自己的感受以及我们认为自己的能力有很大关系。
It starts with being inspired to try something, but also, I didn't grow up in a particularly athletic family.
它始于受到尝试某事的启发，但同时，我也不是在一个特别运动的家庭中长大的。
None of us are unathletic, but I didn't think I could be reasonably strong and have decent endurance, and I wouldn't consider myself an athlete by any stretch.
我们都不是运动能力差的人，但我不认为我可以相当强壮并具有像样的耐力，而且我无论如何也不会认为自己是一名运动员。
But-
但是——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
You're being too modest
你太谦虚了
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but my consistency, I have confidence in.
但我对我的一致性有信心。
If I bite down into something, there's a good chance I'm going to do it for the next 30 years you know?
如果我咬住某件事，我很有可能会在接下来的 30 年里继续做这件事，你知道吗？
So-
所以——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Well, and consistency, my friend, Jim Wright, who passed, he used to say consistency over intensity.
嗯，还有一致性，我的朋友吉姆·赖特（Jim Wright）通过了，他经常说一致性胜过强度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
And that's absolutely true.
这绝对是真的。
If you're doing things correctly with proper form, if you do it over and over, you will win over the long term.
如果你以正确的方式正确地做事，如果你一遍又一遍地这样做，你就会赢得长期的胜利。
Which also kind of brings me to an interesting point.
这也让我想到了一个有趣的观点。
You made me think of the long-term development, athletic development.
你让我想到了长期发展、运动发展。
Here's what I'd like to see in an ideal, perfect world.
这就是我希望在一个理想、完美的世界中看到的东西。
Nobody has tried that yet.
还没有人尝试过。
But I imagine a strength athlete starting out using the Soviet system.
但我想象一个力量运动员开始使用苏联系统。
And later, by the way, the Russian power lifting team uses exactly the same training methodology derived from that.
顺便说一句，后来俄罗斯举重队使用了与此完全相同的训练方法。
Which means you're training many times a week, let's say squat four or five days a week, and you're doing a lot of reps with this moderate effort.
这意味着你每周训练很多次，比如说每周深蹲四到五天，并且你在这种适度的努力下做了很多次。
And you do this for years, and you achieve a high level.
你这样做了很多年，并且达到了很高的水平。
And then at some point, you switch to this American power lifting system because your skills are already fully honed and you're fully adapted to the type of stimulus that that first system brings, and you switch to this once-a-week cycling method.
然后在某个时候，你会切换到这种美国举重系统，因为你的技能已经得到充分磨练，并且你完全适应了第一个系统带来的刺激类型，并且你切换到这种每周一次的骑行方法。
It'll be very interesting to see what would happen, how far one could go.
看看会发生什么，能走多远，将会非常有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So folks in your 20s and 30s, get going on it now, and we'll have a podcast in a couple of decades-
所以，20 多岁和 30 多岁的人们，现在就开始吧，几十年后我们就会有一个播客——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
That's right
没错
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to check back.
回来检查。
Send us a note or put it in the comments.
给我们留言或将其放在评论中。
I'd love to talk about bodyweight training.
我很想谈谈自重训练。
I love, love, love the book, "Naked Warrior."
我非常非常非常喜欢《裸体战士》这本书。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I got that book initially because in the early days of starting my laboratory, I was traveling a ton, and I didn't always have access to gyms, and I wanted to try and grease the groove when I arrived in my room in the middle of the night in Germany or whatever.
我最初得到这本书是因为在开始我的实验室的早期，我经常出差，而且我并不总是有机会去健身房，当我在德国或其他地方半夜到达我的房间时，我想试着放松一下。
So I still have not succeeded in doing pistol squats on both legs.
所以双腿手枪深蹲我还是没有成功。
So one is I have some dominant and weakness, as it were.
所以一是我可以说有一些优势和弱点。
But I, without any natural strength ability to speak of, was able to learn one-arm push-ups, one-arm pull-ups.
而我，没有任何天生的力量能力可言，却能学会单臂俯卧撑、单臂引体向上。
I'm not there now.
我现在不在。
I have to return to that level of upper body strength.
我必须恢复到上半身力量的那个水平。
But it's remarkable what one can do with bodyweight training.
但自重训练的效果却是非凡的。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Certainly.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you describe some really beautiful progressions in the book.
你在书中描述了一些非常美丽的进展。
I highly recommend this book, folks.
我强烈推荐这本书，伙计们。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So maybe we could just take the push-up as an example and a handstand push-up as the extreme of that, right?
所以也许我们可以以俯卧撑为例，倒立俯卧撑作为其极端，对吧？
What I love so much about that book is, for instance, you talk about doing a push-up against a wall is trivially easy for most people.
我非常喜欢这本书的一点是，例如，你谈到靠墙做俯卧撑对大多数人来说是非常容易的。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Doing a handstand push-up freestanding, very difficult.
独立做倒立俯卧撑，非常困难。
But there's a series of progressions in between that maybe you could describe to us that once you realize that, "Oh, I can work through this over time, and if I'm not in a rush to get through it and I just do these a few times a week or more, ah ...
但中间有一系列的进展，也许你可以向我们描述，一旦你意识到，“哦，我可以随着时间的推移解决这个问题，如果我不急于完成它，我只需每周做几次或更多次，啊......
or a few times a day, a few times a week or more, I could do a handstand push-up freestanding, or a pistol squat, or a one-arm pushup, or a one-arm pull-up.
或者每天几次，每周几次或更多次，我可以独立做倒立俯卧撑，或者手枪深蹲，或者单臂俯卧撑，或者单臂引体向上。
It's not outside one's reach at all.
这根本就不在一个人力所能及的范围之内。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
So could you fill in some of the gaps?
那么你能填补一些空白吗？
So getting people to think about the kind of physics of this and the principles behind it.
因此让人们思考这种物理现象及其背后的原理。
It's such a valuable system and one that is a lot of fun too.
这是一个非常有价值的系统，而且也很有趣。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Before talking about the system, Andrew, may I speak about the relative benefits of different types of resistance?
在谈论这个系统之前，安德鲁，我可以谈谈不同类型抵抗的相对好处吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Please.
请。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
So the body weight resistance, I'm going to talk about body weight, kettlebells, and barbells.
那么体重阻力，我要谈谈体重、壶铃和杠铃。
And obviously there are other things as well, but it's going to take too long.
显然还有其他事情，但这需要很长时间。
So body weight training, the great advantage of body weight is its accessibility.
所以自重训练，自重的很大优势就是它的可及性。
So you can do a push-up absolutely anywhere.
所以你绝对可以在任何地方做俯卧撑。
So that's a really huge selling point because for some people, somebody who travels all the time and somebody who is in places where gyms are not available, so that's a great asset.
所以这是一个非常巨大的卖点，因为对于一些人来说，一些人经常旅行，一些人在没有健身房的地方，所以这是一笔巨大的财富。
Some people just simply enjoy it greatly.
有些人只是非常享受它。
That's just fine.
那就好了。
The downside of body weight training is it's a lot harder to learn these skills than it is, let's say, to learn many kettlebell skills or even some barbell skills.
自重训练的缺点是学习这些技能比学习许多壶铃技能甚至一些杠铃技能要困难得多。
So it seems very innocent and so easy, but it may take time to really get some of this.
所以这看起来很天真而且很容易，但真正明白这一点可能需要时间。
So that may take time to do it long.
所以这可能需要很长时间才能完成。
It might take a longer time.
可能需要更长的时间。
The beautiful thing about the barbell is first of all, the satisfaction of lifting really heavy stuff.
杠铃的美妙之处首先在于举起重物的满足感。
Some people find it extremely satisfying.
有些人发现它非常令人满意。
If you don't, maybe it's not for you, but if you do, it's incredible.
如果你不这样做，也许它不适合你，但如果你这样做，那就太不可思议了。
Then the ability to adjust the weights in small increments, so you can prescribe 87.5% one rep max, and you can do that.
然后能够以小增量调整重量，这样您就可以规定 87.5% 的一次最大重复次数，您就可以做到这一点。
You cannot do that with body weight.
你不能用体重做到这一点。
In fact, with body weight, it's very hard to calibrate resistance.
事实上，对于体重来说，校准阻力是非常困难的。
That's another one of the problems, because you do need to have some skills, figure out the regressions and progressions, how to do that.
这是另一个问题，因为你确实需要具备一些技能，弄清楚回归和进展，以及如何做到这一点。
And the other thing, the other great benefit of the barbell is some of the lifts, especially the three power lifts, allow you to make great gains in strength and, if you choose muscle mass, with a very low volume.
另一件事，杠铃的另一个巨大好处是一些举重，特别是三个力量举重，可以让你在力量上获得巨大的收益，如果你选择肌肉质量，则体积非常小。
It's possible to do three sets of five once a week in the squat and get very strong.
每周进行一次深蹲三组，每组五次，就可以变得非常强壮。
Try to do that with pistols.
尝试用手枪做到这一点。
It's just not going to happen.
这不会发生。
So reasons for that, we can speculate.
所以我们可以推测其中的原因。
We know some reasons, we don't know others, but it is what it is.
我们知道一些原因，我们不知道其他原因，但事实就是如此。
The beauty of the kettlebell, for strength specifically, is it's very easy to teach the body language of strength with a kettlebell.
壶铃的美妙之处，特别是对于力量来说，是很容易用壶铃教授力量的肢体语言。
You would think that with a body weight it should be easier because a lot of the skills that I teach in my book, "The Naked Warrior," they are either gymnastics or martial arts based.
你可能会认为，有了体重，这应该更容易，因为我在《裸体战士》一书中教授的很多技能都是基于体操或武术的。
So it's like, okay, here's the hollow position from gymnastics, or here's this little trick from hard-style martial arts.
所以这就像是，好吧，这是体操中的空心姿势，或者这是硬式武术中的小技巧。
So they all both use body weight.
所以他们都使用体重。
Nevertheless, it takes a lot more processing to figure out how to do this right from scratch, like especially contracting your abs properly, especially if you don't have abs to start with.
然而，需要更多的处理才能弄清楚如何从头开始做到这一点，尤其是正确收缩你的腹肌，尤其是如果你一开始就没有腹肌的话。
By the time you have them, that's good, but if you don't have them, it's hard.
当你拥有它们时，那很好，但如果你没有它们，那就很难了。
With a kettlebell, for example, you start doing double front squats with a pair of kettlebells.
例如，使用壶铃时，您开始用一对壶铃进行双前蹲。
It's going to be like Zertchers.
它会像 Zertchers 一样。
Your abdominal wall's going to light up.
你的腹壁会发光。
You suddenly learn exactly, "Oh, this is what it means to get tight." Or you stick your elbows inside the knees and do a goblet squat.
你突然明白了，“哦，这就是紧绷的意思。”或者将肘部放在膝盖内并进行高脚杯深蹲。
"Oh, this is what the proper squat feels like." And just very easy to integrate all your body in one lift.
“哦，这就是正确深蹲的感觉。”而且非常容易将您的整个身体整合到一次电梯中。
And there is an apparent disadvantage of the kettlebell, which also can be an advantage.
壶铃有一个明显的缺点，但这也可能是一个优点。
You can't program 87.5% body weight, I mean one rep max.
你无法设定 87.5% 体重，我的意思是最多重复一次。
Because kettlebells jump in large, for example, from 53 to 70 pounds, for example.
因为壶铃跳得很大，例如从 53 磅跳到 70 磅。
That's a big jump.
这是一个很大的跳跃。
And these days, some companies will manufacture kettlebells with small jumps.
如今，一些公司将生产具有小跳跃的壶铃。
What's the point?
有什么意义？
You're defeating some of the reasons for the being for this particular piece of equipment.
你正在击败这件特殊装备存在的一些原因。
And here's what they are.
这就是它们的含义。
One is simplicity.
一是简单。
You only can have a couple bells and do a lot of things.
你只能敲几个钟，做很多事情。
But the other is when you suddenly, let's say that you've been pressing a 53-pound kettlebell, and you're doing a lot of sets, and your goal is to press a 70-pound kettlebell.
但另一种是当你突然，假设你一直在按 53 磅的壶铃，并且你做了很多组，而你的目标是按 70 磅的壶铃。
That's a big jump.
这是一个很大的跳跃。
So what you're going to do is, first of all, you're going to have to put in a very significant volume of work.
所以你要做的是，首先，你必须投入大量的工作。
That foundation of the pyramid.
金字塔的基础。
Many strength authors throughout history, Bill Starr and many others, use that analogy of volume as being the foundation of the pyramid.
历史上许多力量作家，比尔·斯塔尔和其他许多人，都用体积来比喻金字塔的基础。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
You're going to have to press that 24 kilo many times properly before you're going to have a run at 70.
在你跑到 70 公斤之前，你必须正确地多次按压 24 公斤。
You have to develop the confidence.
你必须培养信心。
The other thing is you're going to have to acquire the skill of tension, total body tension.
另一件事是你必须掌握紧张的技巧，全身紧张。
Everything is linked up because when you go up a couple pounds, it doesn't make a difference.
一切都是相互联系的，因为当你增加几磅时，这并没有什么区别。
You're doing the same thing.
你也在做同样的事情。
You're not noticing.
你没有注意到。
When you go up a lot, everything has to be just so.
当你上升很多时，一切都必须如此。
So as you're going through your sets of five with the 53-pounder, you're also doing just cleans with a 70-pounder.
因此，当您使用 53 磅重的器械进行五组动作时，您还需要使用 70 磅重的器械进行高翻。
You're starting to see what it feels like.
你开始明白那是什么感觉了。
You're doing get-ups with it.
你正在用它起床。
You're starting to see acquiring, see all that weight feels like.
你开始看到获得，看到体重的感觉。
Again, we're talking about disinhibition here.
再次，我们在这里谈论抑制解除。
You're planning on owning this weight.
你正计划拥有这个重量。
So you're forced to put in a very significant volume of work, which is very healthy, and will lead to a lot of really healthy adaptations, and you are forced to develop the skills to make that transition.
因此，你被迫投入大量的工作，这是非常健康的，并且会带来很多真正健康的适应，并且你被迫发展技能来实现这种转变。
And plus, you're also having that desirable difficulty.
另外，你还面临着令人想要的困难。
In skill, in learning, there is that concept by Robert Bjork about desirable difficulties for learning.
在技能和学习方面，罗伯特·比约克（Robert Bjork）有一个关于学习中理想困难的概念。
If learning is very easy, if something's presented to you, you don't learn much.
如果学习很容易，如果向你呈现一些东西，你就不会学到很多东西。
If you have to struggle, like even if you're reading something and the font is ineligible, ironically, you end up learning better.
如果你不得不挣扎，比如即使你正在阅读一些东西并且字体不合格，讽刺的是，你最终会学得更好。
So that's an example of a desirable difficulty, as you're progressing this way.
所以这是一个理想的困难的例子，因为你正在以这种方式前进。
So that is for strength.
所以说这是为了实力。
Obviously, kettlebell have their benefits for endurance and for other things as well, but just for adjusting the resistance.
显然，壶铃对于耐力和其他方面也有好处，但只是为了调整阻力。
Oftentimes, it's just a matter of preference and a matter of accessibility.
通常，这只是一个偏好问题和可及性问题。
So I'm not going to say you pick this tool, you pick that tool, you pick the other tool.
所以我不会说你选择这个工具，你选择那个工具，你选择另一个工具。
But if you decide to pick the body weight, my recommendation would be just be ready, patient for a long road, because you have to patiently learn these little subtleties of micromanaging your body.
但如果你决定选择体重，我的建议是做好准备，耐心等待很长一段路，因为你必须耐心学习这些微观管理身体的微妙之处。
Again, you watch the body language of gymnasts.
再一次，你观察体操运动员的肢体语言。
You watch the Sanchin kata in some styles of karate, and you'll see that amazing linking of the different parts of the body into the one chain, how the tension is used.
当你观看某些空手道风格的三钦型时，你会发现身体的不同部位惊人地连接成一条链条，以及如何利用张力。
So it's very rewarding, but I would say that's probably the most attention demanding.
所以这是非常有价值的，但我想说这可能是最需要关注的。
Even though it seems so innocent and so simple and so safe, but it demands a lot of attention.
尽管它看起来如此天真、如此简单、如此安全，但它需要很多关注。
But if that's your speed and if you enjoy practice through practice, that's a great way to go.
但如果这就是你的速度，并且你喜欢通过练习来练习，那么这是一个很好的方法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I haven't explored kettlebell training so much.
我还没有太多探索壶铃训练。
Whenever I've tried the standard kettlebell swing-
每当我尝试标准壶铃摆动时-
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
just kind of, if there is such a thing, but between the legs, two-handed-
只是有点，如果有这样的事情的话，但是在两腿之间，两只手——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
kettlebell swing.
壶铃摆动。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I tended to get some right side, lower back pain, medial glute thing, and I'm sure I'm not doing it correctly, and I've wanted to learn kettlebells properly.
我倾向于右侧、下背部疼痛、臀肌内侧疼痛，我确信我做得不对，而且我想正确地学习壶铃。
You have an online kettlebell course?
您有在线壶铃课程吗？
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Yes.
是的。
We do have several resources.
我们确实有多种资源。
So we have the book, "Kettlebell: Simple and Sinister," which is available on Amazon.
因此，我们有了《壶铃：简单而险恶》一书，可在亚马逊上购买。
We have an online course under the same name.
我们有一个同名的在线课程。
We also obviously have workshops, live instructors that you can find locally at our website, StrongFirst.
显然，我们还设有研讨会和现场讲师，您可以在我们的网站 StrongFirst 上找到这些内容。
But I can tell you that, of course, some people are not supposed to do swings, as is true for every exercise.
但我可以告诉你，当然，有些人不应该做秋千，就像每项练习一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
For example, in McGill's work, say some people who have problem with shear, sometimes they might have issues.
例如，在麦吉尔的工作中，一些有剪切问题的人说，有时他们可能会遇到问题。
But a great number of people, a majority of people can do swings very successfully.
但是很多人、大多数人都可以非常成功地完成挥杆。
We have seen some really pretty broken people when they're cleared to do that, and when they're coached properly.
我们见过一些非常破碎的人，当他们被允许这样做并得到适当的指导时。
The big issue is you have to hip hinge, not lift the kettlebell with your back or with your arms.
最大的问题是你必须用臀部铰链，而不是用背部或手臂举起壶铃。
And for that, we have very specific progressions.
为此，我们有非常具体的进展。
You cannot go move beyond this until you do this.
除非你这样做，否则你无法超越这一点。
Okay, here you are doing this particular hip hinge drill with no weight.
好的，现在你正在做这个特殊的髋关节铰链练习，没有负重。
Okay, good.
好的，很好。
You got that down.
你记下来了。
Now you're going to do a kettlebell deadlift, which is just a sumo deadlift with a light kettlebell.
现在你要做壶铃硬拉，这只是轻壶铃的相扑硬拉。
Then you're going to progress with a very particular type of swing.
然后你将在一种非常特殊的挥杆类型上取得进展。
So it's about patience.
所以这就是耐心。
But the benefits are really worth it.
但好处确实值得。
So what are the benefits, let's say, of the kettlebell swings as opposed to...
那么，相比之下，壶铃摆动有什么好处呢？
Or snatches.
或者抢夺。
Again, snatch is more of a less democratic exercise, like the dips.
再次强调，抓举更像是一种不太民主的运动，就像臂屈伸一样。
Parallel bar dips, fantastic for those who can do that.
双杠臂屈伸，对于那些能做到这一点的人来说太棒了。
But if you can't, that's too bad, but there are alternatives.
但如果你不能，那就太糟糕了，但还有其他选择。
So again, the snatch is great.
再说一次，抢夺很棒。
If you cannot do snatch, you can do swing.
如果你不能做抓举，你可以做摇摆。
So the swing, it allows you to train power and power endurance in extremely safe manner.
所以挥杆，它可以让你以极其安全的方式训练力量和力量耐力。
Because if you try to develop power in a lot of conventional ways, you will find like, okay, you try doing Olympic lifts.
因为如果你尝试以多种传统方式增强力量，你会发现，好吧，你可以尝试做奥林匹克举重。
It's very skill intensive trying to learn how to do that.
尝试学习如何做到这一点是非常需要技能的。
And besides, for some athletes, it's not appropriate.
此外，对于某些运动员来说，这是不合适的。
Racking the bar and overstretching the wrist ligaments, like for example, for fighters, that's a kiss of death.
举起杠铃并过度拉伸手腕韧带，例如对于拳击手来说，这就是死亡之吻。
That's a really bad idea, destabilizing the wrist in this manner.
这是一个非常糟糕的主意，以这种方式破坏手腕的稳定。
And for many other athletes, too.
对于许多其他运动员来说也是如此。
A pitcher doesn't want to do that, a baseball pitcher.
投手不想这样做，棒球投手。
Then you try to do things like sprinting.
然后你尝试做短跑之类的事情。
Sprinter requires a lot of coaching, proper coaching, much more than a kettlebell swing, and it's very easy to rip a hamstring or something like that.
短跑运动员需要大量的指导，正确的指导，不仅仅是壶铃摆动，而且很容易撕裂腿筋或类似的东西。
So this kettlebell swing allows you to train power and power endurance at a very safe manner.
所以这个壶铃摆动可以让你以非常安全的方式训练力量和力量耐力。
And what's also very unique about it, you don't have to use a lot of weight.
它的独特之处在于，您无需使用很大的重量。
What's unique about the kettlebell and the kettlebell swing, another thing about the design, you can swing it back between your legs, but you don't have to let it passively swing between your legs.
壶铃和壶铃摆动的独特之处在于设计的另一点是，您可以将其在两腿之间摆动回来，但不必让它被动地在两腿之间摆动。
You can choose to accelerate it.
您可以选择加速它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
This is called overspeed eccentric.
这称为超速偏心。
So some years back, our colleague, one of our instructors, Brendan Hetzler, he put me and several other of our colleagues, instructors, on the force plate, and we started doing swings with overspeed eccentric, which means accelerating it downwards and upwards.
几年前，我们的同事、我们的教练之一布伦丹·赫茨勒 (Brendan Hetzler) 将我和其他几位同事、教练放在测力台上，我们开始用超速偏心轮进行挥杆，这意味着向下和向上加速。
So we were using just a 53-pound bell.
所以我们只使用了 53 磅重的铃。
So the most experienced guys, we were able to generate over 10 Gs of acceleration.
因此，最有经验的人，我们能够产生超过 10 G 的加速度。
So basically, we made that 50-pound bell weigh 500 pounds.
所以基本上，我们把那个 50 磅重的铃铛做成了 500 磅重。
But to the listeners who know about how the passive tissues can handle the load when the loading is really rapid, it's amazing how these tissues can handle it very safely.
但对于了解被动组织如何在加载速度非常快时处理负载的听众来说，令人惊讶的是这些组织如何能够非常安全地处理它。
So you can apply tremendous amount of load.
因此您可以施加巨大的负载。
Of course, you don't start with that.
当然，你不是从那开始的。
It's not how you start your swings.
这不是你开始挥杆的方式。
And you can develop power endurance, so you can do a whole lot of many different sets.
而且你可以培养爆发力耐力，这样你就可以做很多不同的组数。
Many sets.
很多套。
You've had Megan Kelly, one of our certified instructors out of UK, she set a Guinness World Record for a crazy number of swings done in an hour.
梅根·凯利 (Megan Kelly) 是我们来自英国的认证教练之一，她在一小时内完成了疯狂的秋千次数，创下了吉尼斯世界纪录。
And so she would just go, her training is she would go and do swings.
所以她就去吧，她的训练就是去荡秋千。
She'll do a few reps, pick up, set it down, and she would do it for, let's say, 90 minutes, and she would do it with a heavy kettlebell.
她会做几次，拿起，放下，她会做，比方说，90 分钟，而且她会用一个沉重的壶铃来做。
And the adaptations are fantastic from that.
由此而来的改编非常棒。
In the kettlebell world, we refer to as the what the hell effect.
在壶铃世界中，我们称之为“到底是什么效应”。
So what's the what the hell effect?
那么到底是什么效果呢？
What the hell effect is when you're getting an adaptation That's not a beginner's gain, but it's an adaptation that's totally unexpected.
当你进行适应时，会产生什么地狱效应？这不是初学者的收获，但这是一种完全出乎意料的适应。
There's some collateral benefit, how suddenly you're able to do something.
有一些附带的好处，你突然能够做某事。
And the improvements in fat loss, improvements in resilience.
以及减脂的改善，恢复力的改善。
So for example, speaking of resilience, so some of the tactical teams that I worked with in the US here, when they added either swings or snatches to their training with the kettlebell, plus one-legged kettlebell deadlifts as well, they stopped tearing their hamstrings.
举个例子，说到恢复力，我在美国合作过的一些战术团队，当他们在壶铃训练中添加摆动或抓举，再加上单腿壶铃硬拉时，他们就不再撕裂腿筋了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
So you have this amazing way to do eccentric loading for the hamstring, but it's very safe and just really prepares you.
所以你有这种神奇的方法来对腿筋进行偏心加载，但它非常安全，而且能让你真正做好准备。
One of my friends, he's still playing baseball in his 60s, he says, "Thank you for the kettlebells." He went through the course in one of the federal agencies 20 years ago, and he's still doing that.
我的一位朋友 60 多岁了还在打棒球，他说：“谢谢你的壶铃。” 20 年前，他在一个联邦机构完成了该课程，现在仍在这样做。
He's retired, but he's still doing that.
他已经退休了，但他仍然在这样做。
So that's a great benefit.
所以这是一个很大的好处。
The amount of pure workload that you can do in this amount, that's why you can burn a lot of calories, you can develop cardio, whatever.
你可以在这个量内完成的纯粹工作量，这就是为什么你可以燃烧大量卡路里，你可以发展有氧运动，等等。
But also why would anybody want to do power training who's not a power athlete?
但为什么非力量运动员的人会想要进行力量训练呢？
Because for so many reasons right now, I don't need to speak about it, your other guests have, for the reasons of longevity, how important it is to have high levels of power.
因为现在有这么多的原因，不用我多说，你们其他的客人也已经知道，为了长寿的原因，拥有高层次的力量是多么的重要。
And the kettlebell swing is one of the ways to develop it.
而壶铃摆动就是发展它的方法之一。
And interestingly enough, going back, these accelerations.
有趣的是，回顾过去，这些加速。
Professor Nikolai Yakovlev, top Soviet biochemist, he was just talking about sprints during added sprints, when you're adding sprints just to a jog, this kind of a fartlek work.
尼古拉·雅科夫列夫教授，苏联顶级生物化学家，他只是在谈论在添加冲刺时的冲刺，当你只是在慢跑中添加冲刺时，这种法特莱克运动。
He was saying how good it is for elderly and for teenagers.
他说这对老年人和青少年来说有多好。
How good it is.
多好啊。
So the kettlebell, even if you're not sprinting, if you don't know how to sprint, you're able to get so many of these youth-promoting benefits.
所以壶铃，即使你不短跑，如果你不知道如何短跑，你也能获得这么多促进年轻的好处。
And again, you have one tool that can train all the qualities.
再说一次，你拥有一个可以训练所有素质的工具。
You can develop mobility.
您可以发展机动性。
The bent press, that's a tremendous exercise.
弯举，这是一项巨大的练习。
The bent press where the mobility of the T spine, the mobility of the shoulder.
弯举可以调节 T 型脊柱的活动度，也可以调节肩部的活动度。
So like you wore a watch and watch, for example, Dr. Paul Moseley is one of our instructors, and he's also a doctor and biomed researcher.
就像你戴着手表一样，保罗·莫斯利博士是我们的导师之一，他也是一名医生和生物医学研究员。
The gentleman is 70 years old, and he's doing these beautiful bent presses, getting himself in the range of motion that young guys on their phones can't possibly get into, and he's doing it in a healthy manner.
这位先生已经 70 岁了，他正在做这些漂亮的弯举，让自己处于手机上的年轻人无法进入的运动范围，而且他以健康的方式做这件事。
So you can develop mobility, you can develop strength, you can develop endurance and resilience in all one package.
因此，您可以通过一揽子计划来发展灵活性、力量、耐力和韧性。
So obviously I'm biased, and I'm not saying it's the only way to go, but that's one relative benefit, one of the many relative benefits of kettlebells.
显然我有偏见，我并不是说这是唯一的方法，但这是一个相对的好处，壶铃的众多相对好处之一。
But in the overall lifelong journey, if you're looking at three things right now, you're new to strength.
但在整个一生的旅程中，如果你现在关注三件事，那么你对力量还很陌生。
What should I start with?
我应该从什么开始？
I would say start with the kettlebell.
我想说从壶铃开始。
It's the best entry point.
这是最好的切入点。
We find it so easy to start coaching people in power lifting or transition to some bodyweight strengths after training them with kettlebells.
我们发现，在用壶铃训练人们之后，开始指导他们举重或过渡到一些自重力量是很容易的。
It's extremely easy because they've got that bodyweight language of strengths down.
这非常容易，因为他们已经掌握了自重的优势语言。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm going to have a few questions in the upcoming months about kettlebells.
在接下来的几个月里，我将有一些关于壶铃的问题。
I'll try not to bother you too many times, but I'll-
我会尽量不打扰你太多次，但我会-
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
I'll be happy to answer them.
我很乐意回答他们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
I'll use the course as a guide, but I'm determined to derive some of these benefits of kettlebells because kettlebells have been around me for over a decade now.
我将使用本课程作为指导，但我决心获得壶铃的一些好处，因为壶铃已经在我身边十多年了。
And I just haven't quite taken to them, not through some aversion, but I'm going to approach it correctly.
我只是还没有完全接受它们，不是因为有些厌恶，但我会正确地对待它。
I love the bodyweight work.
我喜欢自重训练。
The bodyweight work, I don't know, maybe it takes me back to PE class when I was in high school or something when we'd do these fit tests.
自重训练，我不知道，也许它让我回到高中时的体育课或者我们做这些适合性测试的时候。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's usually some pull-ups and push-ups, a reach and a run or something like that.
通常是一些引体向上和俯卧撑、伸展和跑步之类的。
Like a straight-legged toe reach.
就像直腿的脚趾伸展一样。
Who knows if it's a meaningful metric.
谁知道这是否是一个有意义的指标。
But in any case, something so satisfying about going from struggling with push-ups to being able to do a one-arm pushup or something like that.
但无论如何，从努力做俯卧撑到能够做单臂俯卧撑或类似的事情是一件非常令人满意的事情。
And you describe it in how to make that progression in the book.
您在书中描述了如何取得这一进展。
For people that-
对于那些——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
If I may just interrupt you.
我可以打扰一下吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Please.
请。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
And it's also cool that you're a bigger guy and you're doing that.
而且你是一个更大的人并且你正在这样做，这也很酷。
This is what I love to see, and we're seeing that at StrongFirst a lot.
这是我喜欢看到的，我们在 StrongFirst 上经常看到这种情况。
We love to see bigger guys and gals getting into the bodyweight exercises because that's not typical of their strength.
我们喜欢看到更大的男孩和女孩参加自重练习，因为这不是他们的典型力量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
We like to see skinny people getting into the barbell and just go against things.
我们喜欢看到瘦子进入杠铃并与事物对抗。
For example, seeing somebody like Dr. Mike Hartle, one of our master instructors.
例如，见到像迈克·哈特尔博士（Dr. Mike Hartle）这样的人，他是我们的一位硕士导师。
He's a former American bench press record holder and a coach for the Powerlifting Team USA.
他是前美国卧推纪录保持者，也是美国举重队的教练。
Watching him do one-arm push-ups, you got to love that stuff because normally big guys hate bodyweight work.
看着他做单臂俯卧撑，你一定会喜欢这个动作，因为通常大块头讨厌自重训练。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's humbling.
这是令人谦卑的。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
And little guys hate barbell.
小家伙们讨厌杠铃。
And we just get-- And not just guys, women.
我们只是——不仅仅是男人，还有女人。
We have these ladies, these skinny little ladies lifting amazing weights.
我们有这些女士，这些瘦小的女士举起了惊人的重量。
That's just always awesome to see that.
看到这一点总是很棒。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It is awesome.
太棒了。
And I love that strength training, resistance training is starting to really make a showing here in the US and the general public.
我喜欢力量训练、阻力训练开始在美国和公众中真正展现出来。
I think it's one of the best things to happen in the last few years.
我认为这是过去几年发生的最好的事情之一。
And this discussion, your knowledge is going to put even more momentum behind that.
在这次讨论中，您的知识将为这一讨论提供更多动力。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
If I just may, to guide people just briefly on a very high level.
如果可以的话，我可以在很高的水平上简要地指导人们。
Great news, you have so many choices.
好消息，你有很多选择。
Bad news, you have too many choices.
坏消息，你有太多选择。
So pick one program with an established track record and just stick with it and follow it for a long time.
因此，选择一个有良好记录的计划，并长期坚持下去。
Do not try to over-customize everything.
不要尝试过度定制一切。
Daniel Kahneman spoke how much algorithms outperform humans so often.
丹尼尔·卡尼曼 (Daniel Kahneman) 谈到了算法经常超越人类的程度。
I've seen this over and over how a properly designed strength program or endurance program that was generic design but with certain feedback loops in there.
我已经一遍又一遍地看到，正确设计的力量计划或耐力计划是通用设计的，但其中有一定的反馈循环。
Okay, if this happens, you have to go back and make some changes.
好吧，如果发生这种情况，你就得回去做一些改变。
Deliver much better results than customized programs very often.
通常可以提供比定制计划更好的结果。
So find something that's simple, find something that does not have a lot of moving parts and just stick with this for a long time if it's working.
因此，找到一些简单的东西，找到一些没有很多活动部件的东西，如果它有效的话，就长期坚持下去。
Do not look for the next thing because the next thing, maybe it's as good, maybe not But also do keep in mind that every time you change gears, you lose momentum.
不要寻找下一件事，因为下一件事，也许它一样好，也许不是。但也要记住，每次你换档时，你都会失去动力。
You're a neuroscientist.
你是一位神经科学家。
I don't know if you spoke to your audience about the law of neural Darwinism, but there's a competition between the synaptic sides, so you have the pathways.
我不知道你是否向观众讲述了神经达尔文主义定律，但突触双方之间存在竞争，所以你有路径。
So you can only do so many things well.
所以你只能做好这么多事情。
So a child can do everything, but poorly.
所以孩子什么都能做，但做得很差。
But as we get older, some of these pathways get pruned, but others get reinforced, and unfortunately, we can't excel at everything.
但随着年龄的增长，其中一些途径会被修剪，但其他途径会得到加强，不幸的是，我们无法在所有方面都表现出色。
So there's this classic example with-- and not just physically, mentally as well, cognitively as well.
这是一个经典的例子——不仅是身体上的，精神上的，认知上的。
This classic example with taxi drivers.
这是出租车司机的经典例子。
Back in the days before GPS, taxi cab drivers were supposed to pass an extremely challenging test on how to navigate through the city that was not designed to be navigated through.
早在 GPS 出现之前，出租车司机就必须通过一项极具挑战性的测试，测试如何在这座原本不适合导航的城市中行驶。
And they found that a certain part of their hippocampus was more developed than in others.
他们发现他们海马体的某个部分比其他部分更发达。
And so they thought, well, maybe it's just pre-selection.
所以他们想，好吧，也许这只是预选。
Maybe whoever made it through the test were the guys with the more muscular hippocampi.
也许通过测试的人都是海马体肌肉更发达的人。
And then they monitored two groups of students over several years, and they said they start with the same size.
然后他们对两组学生进行了几年的监测，他们说他们一开始的规模是相同的。
And in the group that passed, their brains, so to say, got bigger in that part, and the others, they didn't.
可以说，在通过的那组人中，他们的大脑在那部分变大了，而其他人却没有。
Okay.
好的。
But then at the same time, in a different test of a different test of memory, the guys who passed the test were not so good.
但与此同时，在不同的记忆测试的不同测试中，通过测试的人并不是那么好。
So they lost something in the process.
所以他们在这个过程中失去了一些东西。
It's just life.
这就是生活。
Many things in life are a zero-sum game.
生活中的很多事情都是零和游戏。
You want to seek some balance up to a point, but there comes a point where you know you cannot do it all.
在某种程度上，你想寻求某种平衡，但到了某个点，你知道你无法做到这一切。
We are limited in time.
我们的时间有限。
We're limited in our adaptive capacity.
我们的适应能力是有限的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Amen to that, and I appreciate you highlighting the London cab drivers experiment.
阿们，我很感谢你强调伦敦出租车司机的实验。
Your knowledge of neuroscience is truly impressive.
您对神经科学的了解确实令人印象深刻。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
You're way too generous.
你太慷慨了。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, it's true.
不，这是真的。
No other guest on here has discussed long-term depression, which it's a potential issue.
这里没有其他客人讨论过长期抑郁症，这是一个潜在的问题。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
My dad said, Andrew-
我爸爸说，安德鲁——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's really cool
真的很酷
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
...
...
something my dad taught me early on that is good things happen at junctions of fields.
我父亲很早就教给我的一句话是，田野的交界处会发生好事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
If you always stay exactly just in your own narrow field and just the same thing is repeated, but when you start going to somewhere else a little bit outside that's adjacent, whether it's neuroscience, whether it's okay, what are the martial arts skills?
如果你总是只呆在自己狭窄的领域里，重复同样的事情，但是当你开始去其他邻近的地方时，无论是神经科学，还是可以，武术技巧是什么？
How do the martial artists do for striking or somewhere else?
武术家在击打或其他方面是如何做的？
I think that's just really interesting to kind of step a little bit outside your comfort zone, and sometimes you see patterns.
我认为稍微走出你的舒适区真的很有趣，有时你会看到模式。
That's what happens.
就是这样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Your father's a smart man.
你父亲是个聪明人。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Kids and young people training.
儿童和青少年训练。
I don't know what the going word is now as to whether or not there's a too young to resistance train age.
我不知道现在流行的说法是，是否存在一个太年轻而不能进行阻力训练的年龄。
Some people say there isn't.
有人说没有。
When I was growing up, it was thought that if you squatted heavy or you deadlifted heavy before you reached your natural limits of your height, that it could "stunt your growth." I'd like your comments on that.
在我成长的过程中，人们认为，如果你在达到身高的自然极限之前深蹲或硬拉，可能会“阻碍你的成长”。我想听听您对此的评论。
But based on what we were just talking about, it seems that if a young person is interested in developing a super skill in one area, one sport, okay, but there's a real trade-off to that.
但根据我们刚才讨论的内容，似乎如果一个年轻人有兴趣在一个领域、一项运动中发展超级技能，好吧，但这确实需要权衡。
And perhaps what we should do as kids is a little bit of soccer, a little bit of swimming-
也许我们作为孩子应该做的就是踢一点足球，一点游泳——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
For sure
当然
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a little bit of gymnastics.
一点体操。
Gymnastics seems like a wonderful all-around sport.
体操似乎是一项精彩的全能运动。
Maybe a little archery.
也许会一点射箭。
Try a bunch of things.
尝试很多事情。
Some ballet.
一些芭蕾舞。
Try-
尝试-
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Well, that's the time to do that.
嗯，是时候这样做了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
That explores that neurodiversity and the things that you can possibly do and then find the things that you click with.
这探索了神经多样性和你可能做的事情，然后找到你喜欢的事情。
And for the physical body, early specialization destroys athletes.
对于身体来说，过早的专业化会毁掉运动员。
It is really terrible because early on, kids absolutely need to do a wide variety of different activities and really pursue a fairly balanced development.
这真的很糟糕，因为在早期，孩子们绝对需要进行各种各样的不同活动，并真正追求相当平衡的发展。
There may be a bias towards strengths or bias towards endurance, but they really need to do it all.
可能存在对优势或耐力的偏见，但他们确实需要做到这一切。
And specialist athletes break.
专业运动员也会崩溃。
They break.
他们打破了。
They really do.
他们确实这么做了。
So that balance between general and specific, it's a tough balance.
因此，一般性和具体性之间的平衡是一个艰难的平衡。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, and psychologically sometimes, too.
是的，有时心理上也是如此。
We had a guest on here who's become a psychologist, but she was a concert-level violin player, then injured her finger, and it was like the most devastating thing.
我们这里有一位客人，她成为了一名心理学家，但她是一名音乐会级别的小提琴演奏家，然后手指受伤了，这就像是最具毁灭性的事情。
When we put all of our sort of identity into one thing, sure, you get your Michael Jordans and you get your Tiger Woodses and those are-
当我们将我们所有的身份融入一件事时，当然，你会得到你的迈克尔乔丹，你会得到你的老虎伍兹，那些是-
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
And seriously, there's no right answer or wrong answer.
说真的，没有正确答案或错误答案。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
So I remember Ivan Abadzhiev, who was head coach with the Bulgarian weightlifting team, he says if Paganini played whatever instruments in addition to his own instrument, playing it 15 hours a day, he would not have become Paganini.
所以我记得保加利亚举重队的主教练伊万·阿巴德吉耶夫（Ivan Abadzhiev）说，如果帕格尼尼除了自己的乐器之外还演奏任何乐器，每天演奏15个小时，他就不会成为帕格尼尼。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
And that's true, but I'm not saying that specialization is necessarily the right choice for everybody.
确实如此，但我并不是说专业化必然是每个人的正确选择。
Some people prefer to be decent in many things-
有些人在很多事情上更喜欢正派——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
...
...
and it is healthy.
而且它是健康的。
But you still have to decide.
但你仍然必须做出决定。
You still have to make decisions.
你仍然需要做出决定。
Very much you're looking like at a budget.
您看起来非常有预算。
Do I want to buy a couch or do you want to go on a vacation to Italy?
我想买一张沙发还是你想去意大利度假？
Or do I want to go on a much lamer vacation than buy a lamer couch and do both?
或者我想要去度一个更蹩脚的假期，而不是买一张更蹩脚的沙发，然后两者兼得？
And I'm not saying what's the right answer right there, but just people do have to understand there are limitations.
我并不是说正确的答案是什么，只是人们必须明白这是有局限性的。
They can't successfully compete in two sports, for example.
例如，他们无法成功参加两项运动。
It's not going to happen, especially if it's a power sport and endurance sport.
这是不会发生的，特别是如果它是一项力量运动和耐力运动。
And they can't study everything to a high level just as well.
他们也不可能把所有的事情都研究到很高的水平。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
If you want to be a polymath, that was fine in the 18th century.
如果你想成为一名博学者，那在 18 世纪是没问题的。
Right now, it's a little bit tougher.
现在，情况有点困难。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
A previous guest, you may know him, Josh Waitzkin of-
之前的一位客人，你可能认识他，乔什·维茨金（Josh Waitzkin）——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
chess prodigy fame.
国际象棋神童的名气。
He's gone on to do several things at world-class level by severing from the previous endeavor completely.
他完全脱离了之前的努力，继续做了一些世界级的事情。
He hasn't picked up a chess piece since he was 16, which is remarkable.
他从16岁起就没有拿起过棋子，这已经很了不起了。
Pivoting to other things, but when one looks at the data on child prodigies, very few of them are like Josh.
转向其他事情，但当你查看有关神童的数据时，很少有人像乔什那样。
Most of them don't actually succeed in doing anything else at a very high level, except hopefully survive and thrive in their personal life.
他们中的大多数人实际上并没有在很高的水平上成功地做任何其他事情，除了希望在他们的个人生活中生存和发展。
Who knows?
谁知道？
After being ultra successful as a young child, probably because their nervous system is so...
在小时候取得了巨大的成功后，可能是因为他们的神经系统是如此......
They greased the groove so heavily for one endeavor-
他们为了一项努力而在凹槽上涂了如此多的油脂——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's very hard to cross over.
很难跨越。
Josh is exceptional in that regard.
乔什在这方面非常出色。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Well, exceptions prove the rule usually.
好吧，例外通常证明了规则。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Exactly.
确切地。
Not to say too mechanical and specific, but I'd love to talk about abdominal, or rather core work.
并不是说太机械和具体，但我很想谈谈腹部，或者更确切地说是核心工作。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Another thing that I love in the "Naked Warrior" are the abdominal exercises.
《裸武士》中我喜欢的另一件事是腹部练习。
I must tell you, after years of doing some crunches here and there in different, for whatever, this class or that class, or trying to...
我必须告诉你，经过多年在不同的地方做一些仰卧起坐，无论是这堂课还是那堂课，或者试图……
I never really cared about having my abs defined for its own sake.
我从来没有真正关心过为了腹肌本身而定义腹肌。
One should probably be able to at least contract their abs, okay?
一个人至少应该能够收缩腹肌，好吗？
It's the level of-
这水平是——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
We assess them by punching them.
我们通过殴打他们来评估他们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Exactly.
确切地。
But there's some wonderful exercises in there about learning to brace the entire body, and some, dare I say, some rather unorthodox ways of assessing stability at the level of the core.
但是其中有一些关于学习支撑整个身体的精彩练习，而且我敢说，还有一些相当非正统的方法来评估核心水平的稳定性。
I'm thinking about the plank where somebody tries to either kick you over or push you over.
我在想木板，有人试图把你踢倒或推倒。
This might sound violent.
这听起来可能很暴力。
This is not where you start, folks.
伙计们，这不是你们开始的地方。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
It's kind and gentle, yes.
是的，它很善良，很温柔。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I never thought I could do hanging pikes, for instance, and now pikes are a standard part of my weekly routine.
但我从来没有想过我可以做悬挂长矛，例如，现在长矛已经成为我每周例行公事的标准部分。
I love doing five sets of five of hanging pikes.
我喜欢做五组，每组五个悬挂长矛。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Great.
太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I will tell anyone that decides to go down this path, that when I first tried to do a pike, I failed miserably.
我会告诉任何决定走这条路的人，当我第一次尝试做派克时，我惨败了。
I tried an L-sit, failed miserably.
我尝试过 L-sit，但惨遭失败。
Tried hanging from the bar and just getting into a chair position and could just barely hold that.
尝试挂在吧台上，然后坐到椅子上，但几乎无法保持住。
The progressions are what matter, right?
进展才是最重要的，对吧？
Slow progression and patience.
进展缓慢，要有耐心。
Now five sets of five pikes, trivial-
现在五组五个长矛，微不足道-
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Great
太棒了
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for me.
对我来说。
But I just want to emphasize that when I started, I was far, far away from that, and it's the progressions in the book that really helped me, and I've maintained that pike ability.
但我只是想强调，当我开始时，我离那还很远，书中的进展真正帮助了我，而且我一直保持着长矛能力。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
That's excellent.
那太好了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So thank you for that.
所以谢谢你。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I say it not to necessarily to highlight what I can do, but to highlight what I do believe most anybody can do.
我这么说不一定是为了强调我能做什么，而是为了强调我相信大多数人都能做的事情。
If you put the work in.
如果你把作业放进去。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
They can if they put a lot of attention in.
如果他们投入很多注意力，他们就能做到。
So, midsection training is one of the most misunderstood and messed up areas of physical culture.
因此，中段训练是体育文化中最容易被误解和混乱的领域之一。
There's a thousand different exercises and people are like, "Oh, you got to have variety, this many reps." That's not the point.
有上千种不同的练习，人们会说，“哦，你必须有多样性，这么多次。”这不是重点。
The point really is tension and attention.
重点实际上是紧张和注意力。
So those are the two things.
所以这是两件事。
And ideally, your best first step is really learning abdominal tension through something like a Zercher squat or double kettlebell front squat, where the load distribution is such that it forces reflexive stabilization.
理想情况下，你最好的第一步是通过 Zercher 深蹲或双壶铃前蹲等方式真正学习腹部张力，其中的负荷分布会迫使反射性稳定。
Then you feel, "Oh, that's what tight abs feel like." And getting somebody just weak on a plank, it's hopeless.
然后你会觉得，“哦，这就是紧实腹肌的感觉。”让一个人在木板上变得虚弱，这是没有希望的。
It's absolutely not going to help.
这绝对没有帮助。
It's not.
它不是。
There are ways of building up to it, yes, by rolling in the back and so on.
是的，有很多方法可以实现这一目标，例如在后面滚动等等。
But if you don't have that option or if you choose not to exercise it, you have to be extremely attentive to the details of what's going on within your abdomen.
但如果您没有这种选择，或者您选择不锻炼，则必须非常注意腹部发生的情况的细节。
So you need to learn things like, for example, you need to learn to contract the pelvic diaphragm.
所以你需要学习一些东西，例如，你需要学习收缩骨盆隔膜。
Pull your butt up.
把你的屁股拉起来。
Because you're trying to constrain the intra-abdominal pressure.
因为你试图限制腹内压力。
Then you need to learn how to direct attention to the different parts of your abdomen, almost like a bodybuilder, but really not quite, more like a gymnast.
然后你需要学习如何将注意力集中到腹部的不同部位，就像健美运动员一样，但又不完全一样，更像体操运动员。
There is this argument in the strength world about internal focus, external focus, and cuing, and the agreement is in motor learning.
在力量世界中存在着关于内部焦点、外部焦点和提示的争论，并且在运动学习中达成了一致。
Well, external focus cuing is so much better than focusing on whatever happens within the individual muscle.
好吧，外部焦点提示比关注个体肌肉内发生的任何事情要好得多。
It may be true in the beginning, and it may be true outside of the strength game, but any top strength athlete that you will meet, they have their own internal cues how they do something.
一开始可能是这样，在力量比赛之外也可能是这样，但是你会遇到的任何顶级力量运动员，他们都有自己的内部线索如何做某事。
Later on, they may forget them.
后来，他们可能会忘记它们。
It just fires them, but they know how to, "This is how I engage the lat in the bench press." George Halbert, bench press world record holder, famously said it took him many years to finally understand how the triceps is used in the bench press.
这只会激发他们的热情，但他们知道如何去做，“这就是我在卧推中使用背阔肌的方式。”卧推世界纪录保持者乔治·哈尔伯特（George Halbert）曾说过一句名言，他花了很多年才最终了解如何在卧推中使用肱三头肌。
Many years.
很多年了。
So there is a lot of internal component, and for the abs very much so.
所以有很多内部成分，对于腹肌来说更是如此。
You have to learn how to very much direct your attention there.
你必须学习如何将你的注意力集中在那里。
To get high tension, you have to keep the reps low.
为了获得高张力，你必须保持低次数。
Like you said, five sets of five, perfect.
就像你说的，五组五组，完美。
High reps are not necessary.
不需要高次数。
You're not going to burn off fat by doing more reps.
你不会通过做更多的次数来燃烧脂肪。
You're just going to irritate your back.
你只会刺激你的背部。
That's all you're going to do.
这就是你要做的全部事情。
Nothing else.
没有别的了。
So you treat your ab training very much like a strength event.
因此，您将腹肌训练视为一项力量训练。
And if you do that, you're going to get those results.
如果你这样做，你就会得到这些结果。
And finally, the final detail is you need to use that intra-abdominal pressure as your friend.
最后，最后的细节是你需要利用腹内压力作为你的朋友。
Because in lifting, like a deadlift or a squat or something, the intra-abdominal pressure helps you.
因为在举重时，比如硬拉或深蹲之类的，腹内压力会帮助你。
It supports you.
它支持你。
When you're doing abdominal work, you work against that intra-abdominal pressure.
当你进行腹部锻炼时，你会对抗腹内压力。
You just create that pressure and contract again.
你只需创造压力并再次收缩即可。
This is something called internal isometrics.
这就是所谓的内部等轴测图。
So it's kind of interesting.
所以这很有趣。
It's just a combination of classic strength work with very internalized, almost like a martial arts approach to it.
它只是经典力量练习与非常内化的结合，几乎就像武术方法一样。
Then you need to learn also how to obviously use your abs in lifting.
然后你还需要学习如何明显地使用你的腹肌来举重。
And once you do, and this is the beauty, you don't really have to train your abs anymore.
一旦你做到了，这就是美妙之处，你真的不需要再训练你的腹肌了。
So Franco Columbu, for example, great example.
弗朗哥·哥伦布就是一个很好的例子。
In addition to being super strong and winning Mr. Olympia, he won the best abs.
除了超级强壮并赢得奥林匹亚先生之外，他还赢得了最好的腹肌。
He didn't train abs.
他没有练腹肌。
He said, he told me, "I hate ab training." He just would stay tight whenever he did his heavy lifts.
他告诉我，“我讨厌腹肌训练。”每当他做重物时，他都会保持紧张。
And this is pretty much what happens.
这几乎就是发生的事情。
When you reach a certain level of strength and a certain level of awareness, simply staying tight during your strength work and also employing power breathing, which is very important, you're going to be able to get as strong as you need in the abs and get your six-pack or whatever, provided you don't eat the Twinkies.
当你达到一定的力量水平和一定的意识水平时，只要在你的力量训练中保持紧张并采用力量呼吸（这非常重要），你就能获得所需的腹肌力量，并获得六块腹肌或其他什么，只要你不吃夹心饼干。
In fact, may I show an abdominal exercise right now-
事实上，我现在可以展示一下腹部练习吗——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure
当然可以
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
...
...
that is just sitting at this table-
就坐在这张桌子旁-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
...
...
that's also going to teach you how Teach your audience how to properly pressurize for lifting.
这也会教你如何教你的听众如何正确地加压举重。
So normally it's better done standing.
所以通常情况下最好是站着做。
So, and it's not for people with high blood pressure or heart concerns.
因此，它不适合患有高血压或心脏病的人。
Check with your doctor if that's the situation.
如果是这种情况，请咨询您的医生。
So you take a normal breath in your abdomen, and you pull up your butt pretty much.
所以你在腹部进行正常的呼吸，然后你的屁股就拉得很高了。
Like imagine you have to go to the restroom and it's far away, you're trying to stop yourself.
就像想象你必须去洗手间，而且距离很远，你试图阻止自己。
Then you put your tongue between your teeth and you start and you start hissing.
然后你把舌头放在牙齿之间，你开始发出嘶嘶声。
And you do this in this ratcheting kind of manner.
你以这种棘轮的方式做到这一点。
So .
所以 。
Try to keep all the pressure out of your head, out of your neck.
尽量让所有压力远离你的头部和颈部。
Direct all the pressure, all this pressure is just really staying below.
直接施加所有压力，所有这些压力实际上都停留在下方。
And so this type of hissing, you will notice that very rapidly you're going to contract everything around your waist.
因此，这种类型的嘶嘶声，你会注意到你会很快收缩腰部周围的所有东西。
So everything around your waist is going to contract, and you're going to strain your abdomen.
所以你腰部周围的所有东西都会收缩，你的腹部也会紧张。
You're also going to start learn how to properly stabilize yourself under heavy weights.
您还将开始学习如何在大重量下正确稳定自己。
The difference between using this technique for lifting and for just training the abs, when you're training the abs there's going to be some spinal flexion.
使用这种技术来举重和仅仅训练腹肌之间的区别是，当你训练腹肌时，会有一些脊柱弯曲。
Not a whole lot.
不是很多。
You don't want to do a lot of that.
你不想做很多这样的事情。
There's going to be some spinal flexion.
脊柱会有一定的弯曲。
When you're doing that under a heavy barbell squat, you're maintaining your spine as neutral.
当你在大重量杠铃深蹲下这样做时，你的脊柱保持中立。
It's like your body stays a cylinder.
就像你的身体仍然是一个圆柱体。
And you're going to hold your breath pretty much.
你会屏住呼吸。
But the idea is the same, so it's like .
但思路是一样的，所以就这样了。
So the Valsalva maneuver, one Russian coach called it, it's an exhalation that didn't happen.
因此，一位俄罗斯教练称之为瓦氏动作，这是一种没有发生的呼气。
Okay?
好的？
Because people don't know how to hold their breath properly.
因为人们不知道如何正确屏住呼吸。
They just and then eyes are bulging out where there's no stability right here.
他们只是然后眼睛就凸出来了，因为这里不稳定。
So firstly, you got to inhale low.
所以首先，你必须低吸气。
And how do you do that?
你如何做到这一点？
If you watch top lifters how they do that, they will do it through pursed lips.
如果你观察顶级举重运动员是如何做到这一点的，他们会通过撅起嘴唇来做到这一点。
You can also do it through the nose, but you cannot do it through a big, wide-open mouth.
你也可以通过鼻子来做到这一点，但你不能通过张开的大嘴来做到这一点。
So I'll show you why.
所以我会告诉你原因。
So you folks can try it at home.
所以大家可以在家尝试一下。
So if you put your hand on your stomach and try to do an abdominal breath , doesn't go very well.
因此，如果你把手放在肚子上并尝试进行腹式呼吸，效果并不好。
Now, for contrast, pinch off one nostril.
现在，作为对比，捏掉一个鼻孔。
Take an abdominal breath.
进行腹式呼吸。
Or you can do that through pursed lips.
或者你可以通过撅起嘴唇来做到这一点。
Try it again.
再试一次。
So you see-
所以你看——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
More resistance.
更多阻力。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
More resistance.
更多阻力。
And again, you're engaging the diaphragm instead of just your thorax right there.
再说一次，你正在接触横膈膜，而不仅仅是你的胸部。
So you take that breath into your abdomen in through a small opening, through your nose or through your pursed lips.
因此，你通过一个小开口、鼻子或撅起的嘴唇将呼吸吸入腹部。
You draw it in right there, and then down below you pull it up, and then after that is that exhalation that didn't happen.
你把它拉在那里，然后往下拉，然后把它拉起来，然后就没有发生呼气了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, I see.
哦，我明白了。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Do you see?
你看到了吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
So I'm familiar with sort of bracing my abs.
所以我很熟悉如何支撑我的腹肌。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What I've not done before is the resisting going to the bathroom thing that you mentioned.
我以前没有做过的是你提到的抗拒去洗手间的事情。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The pulling up of the butt.
屁股的拉起。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then so you're creating compression from the bottom and from the top.
然后你就可以从底部和顶部创建压缩。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
And also from all around-
还有来自四面八方的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see
我明白了
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
...
...
that happens reflexively as well.
这也是条件反射地发生的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
So that's the position to get into before say like a hard, a Zercher squat or something like that.
所以这就是在硬蹲、Zercher 深蹲或类似的动作之前进入的位置。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
And if you're doing that for an exercise that's long in duration, if you don't want to be holding your breath too long, then we have an expression that comes from one of the karate styles, breathing behind the shield.
如果你这样做是为了进行一项持续时间较长的练习，如果你不想屏住呼吸太久，那么我们有一个来自空手道风格之一的表达方式，在盾牌后面呼吸。
So right now I can speak to you, but I'm still just as tight and...
所以现在我可以和你说话，但我仍然很紧张......
So you see what you're doing.
所以你看到你在做什么。
So the way we test it at our, the way we teach it at our workshops is you lie on the ground.
所以我们在我们的工作室测试它的方式，我们在研讨会上教授它的方式是你躺在地上。
I tell you to tense up.
我告诉你要紧张。
Then I'm going to stand on your stomach, and I'm going to have you sing a song.
然后我会站在你的肚子上，让你唱首歌。
And you're going to have to learn to properly maintain that pressure while still continuing to breathe.
你必须学会在继续呼吸的同时正确维持压力。
So you're able to stabilize your spine, but you're not going to pass out from maintaining that by holding your breath for a period of time.
所以你能够稳定你的脊柱，但你不会因为屏住呼吸一段时间而昏倒。
And then finally, what you got to learn to do is you got to learn to match the breath with the force.
最后，你要学会做的就是学会将呼吸与力量相匹配。
So synchronize when you're punching, when you're throwing, when you're lifting.
因此，在出拳、投掷、举重时要保持同步。
You have to learn how to match that contraction, the timing of the abdominal contraction and the pressurization, sometimes exhalation, sometimes just pretending to, with the effort.
你必须学习如何配合收缩、腹部收缩和加压的时机，有时呼气，有时只是假装，与努力。
Once you learn how to match the breath with the force, it's like magic.
一旦你学会了如何将呼吸与力量相匹配，它就像魔法一样。
And what people don't realize, it's not just purely mechanical.
人们没有意识到，这不仅仅是纯粹的机械。
Mechanically, yes, of course it works.
从机械角度来说，是的，它当然有效。
Stu explained it so well about the stiffness of the structure, the analogy of the bicycle frame.
Stu 很好地解释了结构的刚度，即自行车车架的类比。
It's the same thing.
这是同样的事情。
You're getting an expensive bicycle frame when you have strong abs as opposed to the cheap one that rattles and wiggles.
当你有强壮的腹肌时，你会得到一个昂贵的自行车车架，而不是那些嘎嘎作响和摇摆的廉价自行车车架。
But there's also something that it's never spoken about in the West for some reason.
但由于某种原因，还有一些事情在西方从未被谈论过。
The Soviets studied that decades ago.
苏联人几十年前就研究过这一点。
This is something they called the pneumatic reflex.
他们称之为气动反射。
Pneumo is P-N-E-U-M-O, so air.
Pneumo 是 P-N-E-U-M-O，即空气。
So there are baroreceptors, receptors, sensors for pressure inside your abdominal cavity and thoracic cavity.
因此，腹腔和胸腔内有压力感受器、感受器和压力传感器。
So whenever these receptors are stimulated, what they do, they automatically increase the sensitivity of our alpha motor neurons.
因此，每当这些受体受到刺激时，它们就会自动增加我们的α运动神经元的敏感性。
So what it really means to the audience is this.
所以它对观众真正的意义是这样的。
If you imagine your brain is the music player and imagine your muscle is a speaker, the amount of intra-abdominal pressure is your volume control.
如果你想象你的大脑是音乐播放器，你的肌肉是扬声器，那么腹内压的大小就是你的音量控制。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
So by increasing that pressure, you're increasing the strength.
因此，通过增加压力，您就可以增加力量。
But by releasing that intra-abdominal pressure, you relax the muscle.
但通过释放腹内压力，您可以放松肌肉。
So that's why in stretching, as I mentioned before, you can't be sitting in a half split, and groaning.
这就是为什么在伸展运动时，正如我之前提到的，你不能半开着坐，并呻吟。
No, you need to Release.
不，你需要释放。
If you release that passive breath, again, your muscles are going to relax.
如果你再次释放被动呼吸，你的肌肉就会放松。
So controlling your breath is very much as it's known in martial arts, it's very much synonymous with controlling your body and your mind very often.
因此，控制你的呼吸就像武术中所知道的那样，它与经常控制你的身体和思想同义。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fantastic.
太棒了。
When one throws a punch, is it true that exhaling "shh" is actually providing additional power or-
当一个人出拳时，呼气“嘘”实际上是在提供额外的力量还是——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
There's no question about it.
毫无疑问。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Yeah, it's been measured in fighters.
是的，它是在战斗机中测量的。
It's also been measured in lifting as well.
它还在提升方面进行了测量。
There was a study that was done in the West even when screaming increases strength significantly.
西方进行了一项研究，即使尖叫可以显着增加力量。
And again, this is not just a psychological component.
再说一遍，这不仅仅是心理因素。
There may be some psychological component to that, but again, there's this very distinct increase of strength through that reflex.
这可能有一些心理因素，但同样，通过这种反射，力量有非常明显的增加。
And it's very easy for the listeners to test that.
听众很容易测试这一点。
Get a dynamometer hand gripper and just test yourself on that and just test it out with different breathing patterns and just see what happens.
拿一个测力计手柄，测试一下自己，用不同的呼吸模式进行测试，看看会发生什么。
And whenever these idiotic practices, some gyms, "Oh, you can't grunt right here," and it's just, well, I guess you can be strong here.
每当这些愚蠢的做法时，一些健身房就会说，“哦，你不能在这里咕哝”，只是，好吧，我想你在这里可以很坚强。
And yeah, of course, if you're doing this on purpose, you're walking in with the bros and you're just trying to just to make noise to attract attention, that's wrong.
是的，当然，如果你是故意这样做的，你和兄弟们一起走进去，你只是想发出声音来吸引注意力，那就错了。
But strength is a noisy endeavor, so there may be some hissing, there may be some grunting.
但力量是一种嘈杂的努力，所以可能会有一些嘶嘶声，可能会有一些咕噜声。
It's just absolutely unavoidable.
这是绝对不可避免的。
And if you're trying to be quiet and if you're trying to be a lady or a gentleman, well, maybe it's for somewhere else, not for the gym.
如果你想保持安静，想成为一位女士或绅士，那么，也许是为了其他地方，而不是为了健身房。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So some potentially trivial questions, but I think they are not trivial.
所以有些可能是微不足道的问题，但我认为它们并不微不足道。
I hope they're not, in any case.
无论如何，我希望他们不是。
Where should we place our eyes when we're in exertion?
运动时我们的眼睛应该放在哪里？
Close our eyes and grind it out?
闭上眼睛然后把它磨掉？
Look at form in the mirror?
照镜子看身材？
I'm a big fan of gyms without mirrors-
我是没有镜子的健身房的忠实粉丝
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because I have to concentrate on the form.
因为我必须专注于形式。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Vision is a powerful tool and source of feedback, but also a source of a lot of things.
愿景是一个强大的工具和反馈来源，也是很多东西的来源。
There must be a rule about this, or at least a set of guidelines for, are we eyes closed and grimacing?
对此必须有一条规则，或者至少有一套指导方针，我们是否闭着眼睛做鬼脸？
Are we checking our bicep vein in the mirror?
我们是否在镜子中检查我们的二头肌静脉？
Just kidding.
只是在开玩笑。
Don't do that, folks.
不要这样做，伙计们。
During a lift, where should our eyes be?
乘电梯时，我们的眼睛应该看哪里？
Is there any idea that looking up it makes it easier to drive up out of the bottom of a squat?
有没有什么想法，向上看可以更容易地从深蹲底部向上推动？
Has this been explored?
这有被探索过吗？
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Well, it has.
嗯，确实如此。
There's several sides to that.
这有几个方面。
Part of it is the spinal safety.
其中一部分是脊柱安全。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
So Stu will tell you that extending the neck is going to facilitate the entire posterior chain, and he'll also tell you that lifters with longer necks may be able to get their heads up, and that might work better for them.
所以斯图会告诉你，伸展脖子将有利于整个后链，他还会告诉你，脖子较长的举重运动员可能能够抬起头，这可能对他们来说效果更好。
For some other lifters, especially those with pronounced lordosis, where they're very arched, big arch in the back, that may arch them too much.
对于其他一些举重运动员来说，尤其是那些前凸明显的运动员，他们的背部呈大拱形，这可能会使他们拱得太多。
That might be inappropriate or just kink their neck.
这可能是不合适的，或者只是扭断他们的脖子。
It's all possible.
这一切都有可能。
And so a lot of coaches these days in Lift Like a Deadlift, they try to, including Andy Bolton.
所以现在很多教练都在尝试像硬拉一样举重，包括安迪·博尔顿。
Andy Bolton, he's the legendary deadlifter.
安迪·博尔顿，他是传奇的硬拉运动员。
He's the first lifter to lift over 1,000 pounds in the deadlift.
他是第一个在硬拉中举起超过 1,000 磅的举重运动员。
And Andy and I, we co-authored a book, "The Deadlift Dynamite." So Andy's got the most beautiful deadlift, just the most incredible, beautiful deadlift.
安迪和我共同创作了一本书，《硬拉炸药》。所以安迪有最漂亮的硬拉，最不可思议、最漂亮的硬拉。
So what Andy does is pretty much what the standard recommendation for most people is these days, where you're maintaining a neutral neck and your eyes kind of go with that.
因此，安迪所做的几乎就是当今大多数人的标准建议，即保持颈部中立，眼睛也与之配合。
So you get yourself in the position, on the bottom of the deadlift, like where your head is the continuation of your body like you're an insect or something.
所以你让自己处于硬拉底部的位置，就像你的头是你身体的延续一样，就像你是一只昆虫或其他什么东西一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
And then you look at the spot on the ground that's appropriate, and your eyes will come up.
然后你看看地上合适的地方，你的眼睛就会抬起来。
So that's a good general standard recommendation.
所以这是一个很好的通用标准建议。
For people with long necks looking straight ahead, it's a good recommendation.
对于脖子长、直视前方的人来说，这是一个很好的推荐。
Some lifters succeed with crazy ideas.
有些举重运动员凭借疯狂的想法取得了成功。
Lamar Gant, that again, pound for pound, the biggest deadlifter.
拉马尔·甘特（Lamar Gant），同样是重量级最大的硬拉运动员。
He was in tremendous hyperextension.
他处于极度的过度伸展状态。
He was looking at the ceiling.
他看着天花板。
Then at a high level of competition, there are some other subtle ways some things people try.
然后在高水平的竞争中，人们会尝试一些其他微妙的方式。
So Konstantīns Gasanov from Latvia, he was another great deadlifter who passed.
来自拉脱维亚的康斯坦丁斯·加萨诺夫（Konstantins Gasanov）是另一位通过考试的伟大硬拉运动员。
He would look down at the start.
他一开始就会低头看。
He would look absolutely down.
他看起来会非常沮丧。
He was pretty much...
他几乎...
And if you look at it from your perspective, when your neck is in flexion, interestingly enough, that facilitates the knee extensors, which is really, really weird.
如果你从你的角度来看，当你的脖子弯曲时，有趣的是，这有利于膝关节伸肌，这真的非常奇怪。
Yeah.
是的。
And-
还有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's when I put my chin toward my chest.
就在那时，我把下巴贴向胸口。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Not all the way down.
并不是一路下来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
But yeah.
但是是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
You will find that your quads are going to be stronger.
你会发现你的股四头肌会变得更强。
Yeah.
是的。
But it's not for everybody.
但这并不适合所有人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure.
当然。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
For somebody else, that's a great way to mess up the back.
对于其他人来说，这是搞乱背部的好方法。
So there are some subtleties.
所以有一些微妙之处。
And there are also some people who really get fancy with the eyes, eye movement, follow the bar, do these other things-
还有一些人真的很喜欢眼睛、眼球运动、跟随酒吧、做这些其他的事情——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
...
...
like it comes from gymnastics.
就像它来自体操一样。
Good rule of thumb is if you look straight ahead, more often than not, you're going to be okay.
好的经验法则是，如果你直视前方，通常情况下，你会没事的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
But from that, there are a lot of fancy ways to do it.
但除此之外，还有很多奇特的方法可以做到这一点。
As for closing your eyes, closing your eyes is not recommended.
至于闭眼，不建议闭眼。
It changes the coordination of the lift, but for advanced lifters lifting blindfolded is a really good idea.
它改变了举重的协调性，但对于高级举重运动员来说，蒙着眼睛举重确实是个好主意。
So Robert Roman, one of the top Soviet specialists, he pioneered that, and he would have his lifters do some of the sets blindfolded.
因此，苏联顶级专家之一罗伯特·罗曼（Robert Roman）开创了这一做法，他会让他的举重运动员蒙上眼睛做一些动作。
And it's really amazing at how much not relying on your vision, relying on your kinesthetic sense, what that does, it's quite remarkable.
令人惊奇的是，在很大程度上不依赖于你的视觉，而是依赖于你的动觉，这确实是非常了不起的。
And also, just to add one more thing.
另外，还要添加一件事。
At a competition, at least in powerlifting, I mean, the top guys, they don't see anything really They are just deep inside their rage.
在比赛中，至少在举重比赛中，我的意思是，顶尖的家伙们，他们实际上看不到任何东西，他们只是深陷愤怒之中。
It's a total tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, everything.
这完全是一种狭隘的视野、听觉排斥，一切都如此。
So they're had in whatever remembered position, but don't ask them to look at you or see you.
所以他们会处于记忆中的任何位置，但不要要求他们看着你或看到你。
It's not going to happen.
这不会发生。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're someplace else.
他们在别的地方。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Pavel, I must say, this has been a spectacular voyage through-
帕维尔，我必须说，这是一次壮观的航行——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
You're very kind, Andrew.
你非常友善，安德鲁。
It's been a real pleasure.
这真是一种乐趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, really?
哦，真的吗？
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Very stimulating conversation.
非常刺激的谈话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, thank you.
哦，谢谢。
And I'm going to just embarrass you a little bit further by telling you more positive things about you, because I notice it makes you uncomfortable.
我会告诉你更多关于你的积极的事情，让你更加尴尬，因为我注意到这会让你感到不舒服。
It's perhaps the only thing that makes you uncomfortable.
这也许是唯一让你不舒服的事情。
But in all seriousness, I can't sense any discomfort.
但说实话，我感觉不到任何不适。
I want to just thank you for a number of things that are reflective, I'm sure, of what other people are thinking.
我想感谢你们所做的一些事情，我确信，这些事情反映了其他人的想法。
First of all, the level of rigor that you've approached this whole thing of strength and fitness and flexibility and breathing and every one of these topics, too many to list off just now it's remarkable.
首先，你对力量、健身、灵活性和呼吸这整件事的严格程度，以及这些主题中的每一个，太多了，现在无法列出，这是非常了不起的。
It's really fantastic.
真是太棒了。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
I love my job, so that's easy.
我热爱我的工作，所以这很容易。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This comes through and it's rare these days, but it's rare in any age to find people that are so dedicated to this level of rigor in a given area, and it's so appreciated.
这种情况现在已经很少见了，但在任何时代都很少能找到在特定领域如此严格的人，这是非常值得赞赏的。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Coming from you, it means a lot.
来自你，意味着很多。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
We really need people like you.
我们真的需要像你这样的人。
You're truly a scientist and a practitioner.
你是一位真正的科学家和实践者。
You embody the principles that you discuss clearly, which is also important.
你体现了你清晰讨论的原则，这也很重要。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
If I could blush, I would right now.
如果我能脸红，我现在就会脸红。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Russians don't blush?
俄罗斯人不脸红吗？
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No. Got it.
不，明白了。
A topic for another podcast.
另一个播客的主题。
So the rigor and the quality of the information that you put forth in your books and on this podcast and elsewhere, your online course, is just absolutely spectacular.
因此，您在书籍、播客以及其他地方（您的在线课程）中提供的信息的严谨性和质量绝对令人惊叹。
And I hope people noticed.
我希望人们注意到。
I couldn't help but notice as an academic, but your attention to proper attribution for people that have done the work and accomplished the various feats from whom you've gleaned various aspects of this knowledge is not to be overlooked, because that's something that's so lacking these days.
作为一名学者，我情不自禁地注意到，你对那些完成了这项工作并完成了各种成就的人的适当归因的关注是不容忽视的，你从他们那里收集到了这些知识的各个方面，因为这是当今非常缺乏的东西。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Should go without saying.
应该不言而喻。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's remarkable, and it's important to highlight.
这是非常了不起的，值得强调。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
It should go without saying, Andrew.
这是不言而喻的，安德鲁。
It shouldn't it.
不应该是这样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, it should go without saying, but it doesn't.
是的，这应该是不言而喻的，但事实并非如此。
These days, it's more about who can glean the most attention as opposed to shed light on others and their work.
如今，更多的是关于谁能获得最多的关注，而不是阐明其他人及其工作。
And in doing so, as we've observed, absolutely nothing is lost and so much is gained.
正如我们所观察到的，这样做绝对不会造成任何损失，反而会收获很多。
It's for everybody.
它适合每个人。
So thank you.
所以谢谢你。
That's proper attribution-
这才是正确的归因——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Thank you for your kind words
谢谢你的客气话
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is spectacular.
很壮观。
And I really look forward to sharing the resources where people can learn more.
我真的很期待分享资源，让人们可以了解更多信息。
But already today, you've just provided such a wealth of knowledge for us, and it's a real honor to sit here with you and to learn from you.
但今天，您刚刚为我们提供了如此丰富的知识，很荣幸能坐在这儿和您一起向您学习。
I plan to listen to this podcast several times over and take detailed notes.
我计划多次听这个播客并做详细的笔记。
We timestamp it all.
我们对这一切都加了时间戳。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I just hope that we'll have the opportunity at some point to sit down again, and as well, perhaps, to get the opportunity to train together.
我只是希望我们在某个时候有机会再次坐下来，也许还有一起训练的机会。
So I personally could learn from you.
所以我个人可以向你学习。
But in the meantime, on behalf of myself and everyone listening-
但与此同时，我代表我自己和所有聆听的人——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Back at you
回到你身边
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and watching, thank you ever so much, Pavel.
正在观看，非常感谢你，帕维尔。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Thank you, Andrew.
谢谢你，安德鲁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're a real-
你是一个真正的——
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
Real pleasure
真正的快乐
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you're a real gem.
你真是一颗宝石。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Pavel Tsatsouline:
帕维尔·查苏林：
And thank you for spreading the word of health and strength.
感谢您传播健康和力量的信息。
Strength and health.
力量和健康。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wonderful.
太棒了。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Pavel Tsatsouline.
感谢您参加今天与 Pavel Tsatsouline 的讨论。
I hope you found it to be as interesting and as actionable as I did.
我希望您能像我一样发现它有趣且具有可操作性。
To learn more about Pavel's work, including his books, his online courses, and other resources, please see the show note captions.
要了解有关帕维尔作品的更多信息，包括他的书籍、在线课程和其他资源，请参阅节目注释标题。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please click follow for the podcast on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请点击关注 Spotify 和 Apple 上的播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab Podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客或嘉宾有意见，或者您希望我为 Huberman 实验室播客考虑的主题，请将这些内容放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这本书是我花了五年多时间编写的，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验。
And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
它涵盖了从睡眠到运动再到压力控制的所有协议，以及与注意力和动机相关的协议，当然，我为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There you can find links to various vendors.
在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." If you're not already following me on social media, I am hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 hubermanlab。
So that's Instagram, X, formerly known as Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Threads.
这就是 Instagram、X，以前称为 Twitter、Facebook、LinkedIn 和 Threads。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容不同。
Again, that's hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
再说一次，这就是所有社交媒体平台上的 hubermanlab。
And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.
我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。
All of that is available completely zero cost.
所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter, and enter your email.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的“菜单”选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件即可。
And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Pavel Tsatsouline.
再次感谢您参加今天与 Pavel Tsatsouline 的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。