How to Overcome Inner Resistance | Steven Pressfield
Steven Pressfield: For years, when I was struggling and could never get it together, I realized that at one point that I was just thinking like an amateur.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德（Steven Pressfield）：多年来，当我一直在苦苦挣扎、永远无法把事情整理好时，我意识到，在某一时刻，我只是像一个业余爱好者一样思考。
And that if I could flip a switch in my mind and think like a professional, that I could overcome some of the things.
如果我能打开脑海中的开关并像专业人士一样思考，我就可以克服一些事情。
A professional shows up every day.
每天都有专业人士出现。
A professional stays on the job all day, or with the equivalent of all day.
专业人士整天或相当于一整天的时间都在工作。
A professional, as I said this before, does not take success or failure personally.
正如我之前所说，专业人士不会将成功或失败视为针对个人。
Steven Pressfield: An amateur will, right?
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：业余爱好者会的，对吧？
An amateur gets a bad review or bad response of this, and they just crap out, "I don't want to do this anymore." A professional plays hurt.
业余爱好者对此得到了不好的评论或不好的反应，他们只是说：“我不想再这样做了。”职业球员打球会受伤。
Like if Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan, if they've tweaked a hamstring, they're out there, you know?
就像科比·布莱恩特或迈克尔·乔丹一样，如果他们扭伤了腿筋，他们就在那里，你知道吗？
They'll die before they'll be taken off the court.
他们在被带下球场之前就会死去。
Whereas an amateur, when he or she confronts adversity, will fold.
而业余爱好者，当他或她遇到逆境时，就会屈服。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: "Oh, it's too cold out, you know, I've got the flu." Da-da, that kind of thing.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：“哦，外面太冷了，你知道，我得了流感。”达达，那种事。
An amateur worries about how they feel.
业余爱好者担心他们的感受。
Like, "Oh, I don't feel like getting out of bed this morning.
就像，“哦，我今天早上不想起床。
I don't feel like really doing my work today." A professional doesn't care how they feel, they do it.
我今天不想真正做我的工作。”专业人士不会关心他们的感受，他们会这么做。
So an amateur has amateur habits, and a professional has professional habits.
所以业余的人有业余的习惯，专业的人有专业的习惯。
Andrew Huberman: Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
Andrew Huberman：欢迎来到 Huberman 实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Steven Pressfield.
今天我的客人是史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德。
Andrew Huberman: Steven Pressfield is an author of numerous historical fiction and non-fiction books, including the now iconic "War of Art" and also the book "Do the Work," which both focus on understanding the forces in our minds that barrier us from being our most focused, creative, and productive selves, and more importantly, how to overcome those barriers.
安德鲁·休伯曼：史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德是众多历史小说和非小说类书籍的作者，包括现在标志性的《艺术之战》和《做工作》一书，这两本书都侧重于理解我们头脑中阻碍我们成为最专注、最有创造力和最富有成效的自我的力量，更重要的是，如何克服这些障碍。
Andrew Huberman: Perhaps it's because Steven worked hard physical labor jobs and was in the military prior to becoming a book author and screenwriter.
安德鲁·休伯曼：也许是因为史蒂文在成为书籍作者和编剧之前从事过艰苦的体力劳动并且在军队服役。
Or perhaps it's because he published his first book at age 52 that Steven really understands how to persevere and overcome inner doubt and procrastination, and turn creative blocks into important creative works.
又或许是因为52岁时出版了第一本书，史蒂文才真正懂得如何坚持、克服内心的怀疑和拖延，将创意的瓶颈变成重要的创意作品。
As you'll hear during today's episode, Steven doesn't talk in inspirational slogans or metaphors.
正如您在今天的节目中会听到的那样，史蒂文并没有使用鼓舞人心的口号或隐喻。
Andrew Huberman: So none of this "get after it," or you know, "You just have to do the work." Instead, he gets very concrete about how to structure your day, how to frame your goals and your setbacks, and even how to make your creative environment more conducive to focus and effort.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以这一切都不是“追求它”，或者你知道，“你只需要完成工作。”相反，他非常具体地讲述了如何安排你的一天，如何制定你的目标和你的挫折，甚至如何让你的创意环境更有利于专注和努力。
We also talk about how to capture your best ideas, which, by the way, often occur away from the work that you're actually trying to do, and how to implement them.
我们还会讨论如何捕捉您最好的想法（顺便说一下，这些想法通常出现在您实际尝试做的工作之外），以及如何实施它们。
Andrew Huberman: So, if you have an idea or you're searching for an idea for a creative project to share with the world, this conversation will be immensely useful to you.
Andrew Huberman：所以，如果您有一个想法或者您正在寻找一个创意项目的想法与世界分享，那么这次对话将对您非常有用。
It will also be extremely useful to anyone who suffers from procrastination and self-doubt, which, frankly, I think is all of us at some point or another.
对于那些遭受拖延症和自我怀疑之苦的人来说，它也非常有用，坦率地说，我认为我们所有人在某个时候都会遇到这种情况。
Andrew Huberman: I read Steven's book, "The War of Art", some years ago, and I loved it.
安德鲁·休伯曼：几年前我读过史蒂文的书《艺术之战》，我很喜欢它。
It transformed the way that I did my science, how I approached the podcast, and many, many other aspects of life.
它改变了我从事科学研究的方式、我对待播客的方式以及生活的许多其他方面。
You'll also notice that at 82 years old, Steven is incredibly sharp and fit.
您还会注意到，82 岁的史蒂文异常敏锐且健康。
So we talk about his physical regimen and the important role that it plays in keeping his mind active, productive, and overcoming resistance.
因此，我们谈论他的身体养生方法以及它在保持他的思维活跃、富有成效和克服阻力方面所发挥的重要作用。
Andrew Huberman: Steven is not only very accomplished, he's also truly wise and generous.
安德鲁·休伯曼：史蒂文不仅非常有成就，而且非常聪明和慷慨。
And today, he shares a wealth of practical wisdom with us.
今天，他与我们分享了丰富的实践智慧。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.
为了与这个主题保持一致，今天的节目确实有赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Steven Pressfield.
现在我与史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德进行讨论。
Andrew Huberman: Steven Pressfield, welcome.
安德鲁·休伯曼：史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德，欢迎。
Steven Pressfield: Andrew, it's a pleasure to be here.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：安德鲁，很高兴来到这里。
We're former neighbors, you know, so we've been talking about this for a while.
你知道，我们以前是邻居，所以我们已经谈论这件事有一段时间了。
It's great to be here.
很高兴来到这里。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I've been wanting to do this for a while.
Andrew Huberman：是的，我想做这件事已经有一段时间了。
I've been reading your books for, goodness, a couple of decades now or more.
天啊，我读你的书已经有几十年了，甚至更久了。
Andrew Huberman: "First War of Art," and then I started through the library, you've written a lot of books, nonfiction and fiction.
安德鲁·休伯曼：“第一次艺术战争”，然后我开始浏览图书馆，你写了很多书，包括非小说类和小说类。
It's been super impactful to me and many other people.
这对我和许多其他人都产生了巨大的影响。
I think everybody deals with procrastination.
我想每个人都会遇到拖延症。
You'll tell us about resistance.
你会告诉我们关于抵抗的事情。
But there's a quote out there that they claim is you.
但他们声称有一句话是你说的。
I'm going to assume it's you.
我假设是你。
And I recommend accepting that it's you, even if it's not, because it's a beautiful quote.
我建议你接受这就是你，即使它不是你，因为这是一句美丽的引言。
Steven Pressfield: I'm laughing already.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：我已经笑了。
Steven Pressfield: If it's a good quote, I'll take credit for it.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：如果这是一个很好的引用，我会因此而受到赞扬。
Andrew Huberman: It's great.
安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。
And I'd like your reflections on it and what you intended when you said it, which is, "The more important to your soul's growth, the stronger the resistance will be." Which, for me, was very counterintuitive.
我想请你对此进行反思，以及你说这句话的意图，即“对你的灵魂成长越重要，阻力就会越强。”对我来说，这非常违反直觉。
Steven Pressfield: Uh.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：呃。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: Because we all imagine the creative process as one of being inspired, "Ah, this is my soul's work," and having a ton of motivation to get the work done, a ton of desire and drive.
Andrew Huberman：因为我们都将创作过程想象为受到启发，“啊，这是我灵魂的工作”，并且有大量的动力来完成工作，大量的欲望和动力。
But the more important to your soul's growth, the stronger your resistance will be.
但对你灵魂的成长越重要，你的反抗就会越强。
Interesting.
有趣的。
Steven Pressfield: Well, that's absolutely true.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯，这绝对是真的。
And what I meant by that was that when we conceive an idea for something we want to do, a movie we want to make, or a book we want to make, it's not at all like what the fantasy was, "Oh, I'm really charged up, it's going to be great." What happens is waves of what I call Resistance with a capital R start coming off that keyboard or whatever it is to try to stop us from doing it.
我的意思是，当我们为我们想做的事情、我们想要制作的电影或我们想要制作的书构思一个想法时，它根本不像幻想那样，“哦，我真的很兴奋，这会很棒。”发生的事情是我所说的阻力波，大写的 R 开始从键盘或其他任何东西上开始试图阻止我们这样做。
Steven Pressfield: Make us procrastinate, make us go to the beach, make us just give in to distractions, so on and so forth.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：让我们拖延，让我们去海滩，让我们屈服于干扰，等等。
But the weird principle is, and this is why I always say, if you want to know which one of three or four projects that you should do, you should do the one you're most afraid of.
但奇怪的原则是，这就是为什么我总是说，如果你想知道你应该做三四个项目中的哪一个，你应该做你最害怕的一个。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Because that fear is a form of Resistance with a capital R.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：因为这种恐惧是抵抗的一种形式，大写的 R。
Steven Pressfield: And the more important a project is to your soul's evolution, not to your commercial success, but to your own evolution as an artist, the more resistance you will feel to it.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：一个项目对你灵魂的进化越重要，不是对你的商业成功，而是对你作为艺术家的进化越重要，你就会对它感到越强烈的抵制。
So, in other words, the thing that you really should be doing is going to be the hardest, and it's going to punch you in the face the hardest.
所以，换句话说，你真正应该做的事情将是最难的，它会最狠地打你的脸。
Which is why so many artists have such a hardcore professional attitude, because they have to have it to be able to kind of stand up to that resistance.
这就是为什么这么多艺术家都有如此顽固的专业态度，因为他们必须拥有这种态度才能经受住这种阻力。
They're trying to push them away from doing their project, whatever it is.
他们试图阻止他们做自己的项目，无论是什么。
Andrew Huberman: The more important to your soul's evolution, the more resistance you're going to experience, but that's the project you should be doing.
安德鲁·休伯曼：对你灵魂的进化越重要，你就会经历越多的阻力，但这就是你应该做的项目。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Here's an analogy that I use sometimes, Andrew, and you may have heard me say this before.
这是我有时使用的一个类比，安德鲁，你以前可能听过我这么说过。
I think about...
我想...
If you can imagine a tree in the middle of a sunny meadow.
如果你能想象阳光明媚的草地中央有一棵树。
As soon as the tree appears, a shadow is going to appear, and the shadow is going to be-- The tree is your dream, whatever it is, right?
树一出现，影子就会出现，影子就会—— 这棵树就是你的梦想，不管它是什么，对吗？
A book, a movie, whatever.
一本书，一部电影，等等。
And the shadow is the resistance you're going to feel, and they're directly proportionate to each other.
阴影就是你将感受到的阻力，它们彼此成正比。
Steven Pressfield: The bigger the tree, the bigger the shadow.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：树越大，影子就越大。
So, when you feel that shadow, you feel that massive resistance, "Oh, I want to quit.
所以，当你感受到那个阴影时，你会感受到巨大的阻力，“哦，我想退出。
I don't want to-- I'm not good enough to do this," et cetera, et cetera, that's a good sign, in that it says that the tree, your dream, is really big, and so you have to do it.
我不想——我不够好，无法做到这一点，”等等，这是一个好兆头，因为它表明那棵树，你的梦想，真的很大，所以你必须这样做。
You don't want to take a little tree.
你不想带走一棵小树。
You want to take the big tree.
你想要拿走那棵大树。
Andrew Huberman: You have military training and background.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你受过军事训练和背景。
You were a Marine, correct?
你是一名海军陆战队员，对吗？
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
I was a reservist Marine, infantryman.
我是一名预备役海军陆战队员，步兵。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: How much does your training as a Marine impact this concept of resistance and your suggestions for people and your ability to push through resistance?
安德鲁·胡伯曼：你作为海军陆战队员的训练对抵抗概念、你对人们的建议以及你克服抵抗的能力有多大影响？
Steven Pressfield: A tremendous amount.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：数量巨大。
Steven Pressfield: You know, I think when I was going through boot camp and infantry training and stuff like that, I hated it, and I thought, "I just can't wait until I get out of this and just be a regular civilian again." But as I've grown and lived through the artist life of writing, being in a room with your own demons for two or three years at a time.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：你知道，我想当我参加新兵训练营和步兵训练之类的时候，我讨厌它，我想，“我迫不及待地想摆脱这种情况，再次成为一名普通平民。”但随着我的成长和艺术家写作生涯的经历，一次与自己的恶魔在一个房间里呆上两三年。
Steven Pressfield: I've learned that kind of the virtues that you learn in the military are the same virtues that you have to call upon to live that war of art, the war inside your head.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：我了解到，你在军队中学到的美德与你在艺术战争、你头脑中的战争中必须呼吁的美德是一样的。
You know, the virtues of stubbornness, of the willing embracing of adversity, of patience, of selflessness, and of courage, because it's about fear.
你知道，顽固、愿意接受逆境、耐心、无私和勇气的美德，因为它与恐惧有关。
Steven Pressfield: And so yeah, it's influenced me tremendously, and I found, sort of to my amazement, as I started writing fiction, that I was drawn to themes of war, even though I've never actually been in a war.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的，它对我影响很大，令我惊讶的是，当我开始写小说时，我发现我被战争主题所吸引，尽管我从未真正经历过战争。
But it's the inner war that interests me, the metaphor of war.
但令我感兴趣的是内心的战争，战争的隐喻。
So yeah, a lot.
是的，很多。
It meant a lot.
这意味着很多。
Andrew Huberman: Do you think the physical training that you took part in when you were in the Marines has impacted, A, your current physical regimen?
安德鲁·胡伯曼：你认为你在海军陆战队时参加的体能训练对你目前的身体养生方式有影响吗？
By the way, everybody, Steven is 82 years old.
顺便说一句，各位，史蒂文已经82岁了。
I see him at the gym.
我在健身房看到他。
He's there every morning very early.
他每天早上都很早就到那儿。
What time do you get there?
你什么时候到达那里？
Steven Pressfield: I get there at quarter to 5:00.
Steven Pressfield：我在 5:00 刻到达那里。
Andrew Huberman: Quarter to 5:00 AM, which is why I see him from time to time, because I'm not there at quarter to 5:00.
Andrew Huberman：早上 5:00 一刻钟，这就是我时不时见到他的原因，因为早上 5:00 一刻钟我不在。
Steven Pressfield: You're coming in.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：你进来了。
I'm going home.
我要回家了。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, and I sometimes train there and elsewhere, but you are very consistent.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：是的，我有时会在那里和其他地方训练，但你非常稳定。
You train very early.
你训练得很早。
So clearly, you're in great physical and mental shape.
很明显，你的身体和精神状态都很好。
It's awesome to see.
真是太棒了。
With all the discussion about longevity, you are living proof.
在所有关于长寿的讨论中，你就是活生生的证据。
So what?
所以呢？
I am curious about your physical regimen and the extent to which your physical regimen impacts your ability to lean into and against resistance to do your creative work at the keyboard or with pen and paper.
我很好奇你的身体养生方式，以及你的身体养生方式对你在键盘或笔和纸上进行创造性工作时克服和克服阻力的能力的影响程度。
Steven Pressfield: Aah, that's a great question.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊，这是一个很好的问题。
Going to the gym early, first thing for me, is a rehearsal for when I get home, and I go sit at the keyboard, and I actually have to face the resistance of working that day, right?
早点去健身房，对我来说第一件事就是排练，回家后坐在键盘前，其实我还要面对当天工作的阻力，对吧？
So, to me, the gym is about something that I don't want to do.
所以，对我来说，健身房是我不想做的事情。
I hate to get up that early in the morning and get there.
我讨厌一大早就起床去那里。
It's something that is going to hurt, right?
这是会受伤的事情，对吧？
We all know about that.
我们都知道这一点。
Steven Pressfield: And it's something that I'm afraid of, because as you know, there are all kinds of ways you can hurt yourself and embarrass yourself and so on and so forth.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：这是我担心的事情，因为正如你所知，有各种各样的方式可以伤害你自己，让你自己难堪等等。
But having done that in the morning, so it's for-- I've got like...
但在早上做了这件事，所以这是为了——我有……
I think we have a mutual friend in Randy Wallace, right?
我想我们有一个共同的朋友兰迪·华莱士，对吧？
Do we have-
我们有没有——
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Randy has this thing, Randall Wallace, who wrote "Braveheart" and, as secretary, directed that and many others.
兰迪有这样的东西，兰德尔·华莱士，他写了《勇敢的心》，并作为秘书执导了《勇敢的心》和许多其他作品。
Steven Pressfield: He has a thing in the morning that he calls little successes, and what he's trying to do to build momentum for when he's actually going to sit down and write is achieve something that he can say, "Okay, I did something good here." You know, so going to the gym for me is that.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：他早上有一件事情，他称之为小成功，当他真正坐下来写作时，他试图做的就是建立动力，实现一些他可以说的事情，“好吧，我在这里做了一些好事。”你知道，所以去健身房对我来说就是这样。
It's not so much about the physical aspect of it.
这与它的物理方面无关。
Steven Pressfield: It's the rehearsal for kind of facing like it's-- So, I feel like when I finish at the gym, nothing I'm going to do for the rest of the day is going to be as hard as what I already did.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：这是一种面对的排练——所以，我觉得当我在健身房结束时，我在这一天剩下的时间里要做的任何事情都不会像我已经做的那样困难。
So, you know, there we go.
所以，你知道，我们开始吧。
The ways are greased, and I can go forward.
道路已经润滑，我可以继续前进。
That's the theory, anyway.
无论如何，这就是理论。
Andrew Huberman: So when you wake up in the morning, you're not looking forward to working out?
安德鲁·休伯曼：那么当你早上醒来时，你不期待锻炼吗？
Steven Pressfield: F***, no. I mean, can we say that here on in?
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：F***，不。我的意思是，我们可以在这里说吗？
Andrew Huberman: Sure.
安德鲁·休伯曼：当然。
Yeah.
是的。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Steven Pressfield: Absolutely not.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：绝对不是。
It's a drag.
这是一个拖累。
I hate to go, you know?
我不想去，你知道吗？
Andrew Huberman: You prefer to stay in bed?
安德鲁·休伯曼：你更喜欢呆在床上？
Steven Pressfield: Absolutely, and I wish I could stay in bed, you know?
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：当然，我希望我能躺在床上，你知道吗？
But on the days I do stay in bed, Sunday, I don't feel so good about myself, you know?
但在我确实躺在床上的日子里，周日，我自我感觉不太好，你知道吗？
I wish I had gone to the gym.
我希望我去健身房了。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: I mean, you must feel the same way, Andrew, about whatever you do, being an old skateboarder and a fitness guy your whole life.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：我的意思是，安德鲁，无论你做什么，你都一定有同样的感觉，作为一个老滑板手和一个健身爱好者。
How does it fit in with your regimen?
它如何适合您的养生法？
Andrew Huberman: Well, the problem for me is that I love working out.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯，对我来说问题是我喜欢锻炼。
Steven Pressfield: Oh, you do?
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：哦，你知道吗？
Andrew Huberman: So, I do, and I always have.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，我愿意，而且一直都是。
Steven Pressfield: Wow.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：哇。
Andrew Huberman: I have noticed in the last maybe two or three years that occasionally I have to push myself a little bit more.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我注意到在过去的两三年里，我偶尔需要多逼自己一点点。
I loathe rest days, but they are important.
我讨厌休息日，但它们很重要。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman: You know, I do believe in taking one full day off per week, letting my body recover.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你知道，我确实相信每周休息一整天，让我的身体恢复。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman: But that's the problem, is that I really enjoy working out.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但这就是问题所在，我真的很喜欢锻炼。
And so, by the time I'm done working out and then I shower up, and I eat, and I'm sitting down to do some work, I'm like, "Oh, now comes the really hard workout."
所以，当我完成锻炼，然后洗澡，吃饭，坐下来做一些工作时，我会想，“哦，现在是真正艰苦的锻炼了。”
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: But I noticed that I learn things during those workouts, provided that I don't have my phone with me.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：但我注意到，只要我没有带手机，我就能在这些锻炼中学到东西。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: I might listen to music on my phone, sometimes a podcast or an audiobook, but I do my very best not to be on social media or text during those workouts.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：我可能会在手机上听音乐，有时是播客或有声读物，但我会尽力在锻炼期间不使用社交媒体或发短信。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: Because during those workouts, something always comes to mind that I find useful for elsewhere in life, and it usually pops up during a rest period between sets.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：因为在这些训练过程中，我总会想到一些对我生活中其他方面有用的东西，而且它通常会在组间休息期间突然出现。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: You know, I think exercise takes our brain and body into these unfamiliar states.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你知道，我认为锻炼会让我们的大脑和身体进入这些陌生的状态。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And I think that our unconscious mind geysers stuff up.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为我们无意识的思维间歇泉堵塞了。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And I think it was the great Joe Strummer of "The Clash" that said, "When you have a thought that feels important, write it down, because you think it will be there later, but certain thoughts and ideas are offered up, and they don't last, at least not in that form.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为《冲突》中伟大的乔·斯特鲁默说过，“当你有一个感觉很重要的想法时，把它写下来，因为你认为它稍后会出现，但是某些想法和想法被提出来，它们不会持久，至少不会以这种形式持久。
You need to catch them." And so I have a mode of catch, usually in notes.
你需要抓住他们。”所以我有一种捕捉方式，通常是在笔记中。
Steven Pressfield: Mm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: Do you have a capture method for ideas, whether or not you get them during workouts or in the middle of the night?
Andrew Huberman：您是否有一种捕捉想法的方法，无论您是在锻炼期间还是在半夜获得想法？
Steven Pressfield: I don't have during workouts.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：我在训练期间没有。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
Steven Pressfield: I don't seem to get ideas during workouts, but I completely agree with that, you know.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：我似乎在训练过程中没有得到什么想法，但我完全同意这一点，你知道。
They're those ideas, when they come, like in the shower, or when you're on the subway, or when you're driving along the freeway, your mind is occupied in something else, right?
它们就是那些想法，当它们出现时，比如在淋浴时，或者当你在地铁上，或者当你沿着高速公路行驶时，你的思想被其他事情占据了，对吗？
Your ego is involved, and somehow it opens the pipeline, and things burble up, and you always think, "Oh, I'll remember that," but you forget.
你的自我参与其中，不知怎的，它打开了管道，事情开始爆发，你总是想，“哦，我会记住这一点，”但你忘记了。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: It's like a dream, you know?
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：这就像一场梦，你知道吗？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: They just go away.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：他们就走了。
So yeah, I mean, I'll just dictate it into my phone.
所以，是的，我的意思是，我只需将其口述到我的手机中即可。
I mean, my phone now is full of stuff that I've got to transcribe, but I couldn't agree more with that.
我的意思是，我的手机现在充满了我必须转录的内容，但我非常同意这一点。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, there's something about the way that our unconscious mind, I feel like it kind of tosses things up for the conscious mind to catch, and in those moments, just like in a dream, we think, "Oh, I'll remember this later."
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，我们的无意识思维有一种方式，我觉得它会把一些东西扔给有意识的思维去捕捉，在那些时刻，就像在梦中一样，我们想，“哦，我稍后会记住这一点。”
Steven Pressfield: Yeah, yeah.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：是的，是的。
Andrew Huberman: And we don't.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我们不这样做。
Steven Pressfield: It's amazing how they go away, you know?
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：他们消失的方式真是太神奇了，你知道吗？
Andrew Huberman: They just evanescent.
Andrew Huberman：它们只是转瞬即逝。
Steven Pressfield: They're evanescent, you know?
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：它们转瞬即逝，你知道吗？
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: It's a beautiful word, and it captures it perfectly.
Andrew Huberman：这是一个美丽的词，它完美地诠释了这一点。
Steven Pressfield: See, I'm a different believer.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：看，我是一个不同的信徒。
I don't believe it's really coming from the subconscious.
我不相信它真的来自潜意识。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: I'm a believer in the goddess.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：我是女神的信徒。
I'm a believer in the muse.
我是缪斯女神的信徒。
I think it's coming from someplace else, you know?
我认为它来自其他地方，你知道吗？
And that they're playing with us a little bit, you know?
他们在玩弄我们，你知道吗？
Like, I know Steven Spielberg says, "When an idea comes," he says, "It whispers rather than shouting," which is his way, I think, of saying, you know, it's a very subtle thing that goes away very fast, you know?
就像，我知道史蒂文·斯皮尔伯格说，“当一个想法出现时，”他说，“它会低声而不是喊叫，”我认为这是他的方式，说，你知道，这是一个非常微妙的事情，消失得很快，你知道吗？
And you have got to grab it while it's there.
当它存在时，你必须抓住它。
Andrew Huberman: I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Helix Sleep.
Andrew Huberman：我想稍微休息一下，并向我们的赞助商 Helix Sleep 表示感谢。
Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to your unique sleep needs.
Helix Sleep 生产根据您独特的睡眠需求定制的床垫和枕头。
Now, I've spoken many times before on the Huberman Lab podcast and elsewhere about the fact that getting a great night's sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance.
我之前在 Huberman Lab 播客和其他地方多次谈到过这样一个事实：睡个好觉是心理健康、身体健康和表现的基础。
Andrew Huberman: Now, the mattress you sleep on makes a huge difference in terms of the quality of sleep that you get each night.
Andrew Huberman：现在，您所睡的床垫会对您每晚的睡眠质量产生巨大影响。
How soft it is, how firm it is, how breathable it is, the temperature all play into your comfort and needs to be tailored to your unique sleep needs.
它的柔软度、硬度、透气度、温度都会影响您的舒适度，并且需要根据您独特的睡眠需求进行定制。
Andrew Huberman: If you go to the Helix website, you'll take a brief two-minute quiz, and it will ask you questions such as, "Do you tend to sleep on your back, your side, or your stomach?" Maybe you don't know, but it will also ask you, "Do you tend to run hot or cold during the night or the early part of the night?" et cetera.
Andrew Huberman：如果你访问 Helix 网站，你会接受一个两分钟的简短测验，它会问你一些问题，例如“你倾向于仰卧、侧卧还是俯卧？”也许你不知道，但它也会问你：“你在夜间或半夜是否容易发热或感冒？”等等。
Andrew Huberman: Things of that sort.
安德鲁·休伯曼：诸如此类的事情。
Maybe you know the answers to those questions, maybe you don't, but either way, Helix will match you to the ideal mattress for you.
也许您知道这些问题的答案，也许您不知道，但无论哪种方式，Helix 都会为您匹配理想的床垫。
For me, that turned out to be the Dusk mattress, D-U-S-K.
对我来说，这就是 Dusk 床垫，D-U-S-K。
I started sleeping on the Dusk mattress about three and a half years ago, and it's been far and away the best sleep that I've ever had.
大约三年半前，我开始睡在 Dusk 床垫上，这无疑是我睡过的最好的睡眠。
Andrew Huberman: It's absolutely clear to me that having a mattress that's right for you, does improve one's sleep.
Andrew Huberman：我非常清楚，拥有适合您的床垫确实可以改善睡眠。
If you'd like to try Helix, you can go to helixsleep.com/huberman, take that two-minute sleep quiz, and Helix will match you to a mattress that is customized for your unique sleep needs.
如果您想尝试 Helix，可以访问 helixsleep.com/huberman，参加两分钟的睡眠测验，Helix 将为您匹配专为您独特的睡眠需求定制的床垫。
Right now, Helix is giving up to 20% off all mattress orders.
目前，Helix 为所有床垫订单提供高达 20% 的折扣。
Again, that's helixsleep.com/huberman to get up to 20% off.
再次强调，helixsleep.com/huberman 提供高达 20% 的折扣。
Today's episode is also brought to us by BetterHelp.
今天的节目也是由 BetterHelp 为我们带来的。
Andrew Huberman: BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online.
Andrew Huberman：BetterHelp 提供由持证治疗师完全在线进行的专业治疗。
I've been doing weekly therapy for well over 30 years, and I've found it to be an extremely important component to my overall health.
30 多年来，我每周进行一次治疗，我发现它对我的整体健康来说是极其重要的组成部分。
There are essentially three things that great therapy provides.
伟大的治疗本质上可以提供三件事。
First of all, it provides a good rapport with somebody that you can trust and discuss issues with.
首先，它与您可以信任并讨论问题的人建立了良好的关系。
Second of all, great therapy provides support in the form of emotional support or directed guidance with practical issues in your life.
其次，出色的治疗以情感支持或针对生活中实际问题的指导指导的形式提供支持。
Andrew Huberman: And third, expert therapy can provide useful insights, insights that can allow you to make changes to improve your life, not just your emotional life and your relationship life, but also your professional life.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：第三，专家治疗可以提供有用的见解，这些见解可以让你做出改变来改善你的生活，不仅是你的情感生活和人际关系生活，还有你的职业生活。
With BetterHelp, they make it very easy to find an expert therapist who can help provide the benefits that come through effective therapy, and it's carried out entirely online, so it's extremely convenient.
通过 BetterHelp，他们可以很容易地找到一位专家治疗师，他可以帮助提供有效治疗带来的好处，并且完全在线进行，因此非常方便。
No driving to the therapist's office, no looking for parking, et cetera.
无需开车前往治疗师办公室，无需寻找停车位等等。
Andrew Huberman: If you would like to try BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month.
Andrew Huberman：如果您想尝试 BetterHelp，请访问 betterhelp.com/huberman，第一个月可享受 10% 的折扣。
Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman.
再说一次，这是 betterhelp.com/huberman。
Andrew Huberman: Tell me more about this, from the goddess, or the gods, or the muse, you know, from outside us, or from God.
安德鲁·休伯曼：请告诉我更多关于这一点的信息，来自女神、众神、缪斯，你知道，来自我们之外，或者来自上帝。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Steven Pressfield: Well, you know, if you go back to the ancient Greeks, right?
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯，你知道，如果你回到古希腊，对吧？
"The Iliad," or "The Odyssey," or any of those other great works always start with an invocation of the muse, right?
《伊利亚特》、《奥德赛》或任何其他伟大的作品总是以缪斯女神的召唤开始，对吧？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Homer writes, "Goddess, tell this story," you know?
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：荷马写道，“女神，请讲述这个故事，”你知道吗？
And basically, the artist is stepping or taken his ego out of the picture and saying, "I'm not the one that's going to tell you this story about ancient Troy.
基本上，艺术家将他的自我从画面中抽离出来，并说：“我不是那个要告诉你这个关于古代特洛伊的故事的人。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: "The goddess will tell through me," so they're sort of asking, "Help me, show me," you know, that kind of thing.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：“女神会通过我告诉你，”所以他们有点在问，“帮助我，告诉我，”你知道，类似的事情。
And I had a mentor.
我有一位导师。
Rob, we were talking about that earlier, a guy named Paul Rink.
罗布，我们之前讨论过，一个叫保罗·林克的人。
He's like, can I get into the weeds on this thing, Andrew?
他说，我可以深入讨论这件事吗，安德鲁？
Andrew Huberman: Please.
安德鲁·休伯曼：拜托。
Andrew Huberman: Please.
安德鲁·休伯曼：拜托。
Steven Pressfield: And he sort of introduced me to this concept.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：他向我介绍了这个概念。
This was like the first time I tried to write a book.
这就像我第一次尝试写书。
I was like 27 or something like that.
我当时大概27岁左右。
Well, I had actually tried and failed before, but it was the first time I ever finished one, and I used to have breakfast every morning.
嗯，我之前确实尝试过，但失败了，但这是我第一次完成，而且我以前每天早上都吃早餐。
This was in Carmel Valley, not so far from where you grew up, and with my friend, Paul Rink, who's maybe 30 years older than me.
那是在卡梅尔谷，离你长大的地方不远，和我的朋友保罗·林克一起，他可能比我大 30 岁。
He was an established writer.
他是一位颇有建树的作家。
He knew John Steinbeck and knew Henry Miller from Big Sur.
他认识约翰·斯坦贝克，也认识来自大苏尔的亨利·米勒。
And he told me about the muses, the Greek goddesses, the nine sisters, whose job it was to inspire artists, right?
他告诉我关于缪斯、希腊女神、九姐妹的事，她们的工作是激发艺术家的灵感，对吗？
Steven Pressfield: The classic image of the muse is Beethoven at the piano, and a kind of a shadowy female figure is kind of whispering in his ear, you know, bringing him da-da-da-dum, right?
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：缪斯女神的经典形象是弹奏钢琴的贝多芬，一个阴暗的女性形象在他耳边低语，你知道，给他带来了达达达达姆，对吗？
And so he wrote out for me, my friend Paul, the invocation of the muse from-- He typed it out on his Remington manual typewriter, the invocation of the muse from the Odyssey, from Homer's "Odyssey," translation by T.E.
所以他为我，我的朋友保罗，写下了缪斯的召唤——他用他的雷明顿手动打字机打出了它，召唤了《奥德赛》中的缪斯，来自荷马的《奥德赛》，由 T.E. 翻译。
Lawrence.
劳伦斯.
And I've kept that.
我保留了它。
Steven Pressfield: It burned up in the fire, lost it in the fire, but I've kept that for, like, 50 years, and every morning, before I sit down to work, I say that prayer, you know, out loud and in full earnest.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：它在大火中烧毁了，在大火中消失了，但我已经保留了它大概 50 年了，每天早上，在我坐下来工作之前，我都会虔诚地大声祈祷。
You know, "Goddess, help me." And I'm absolutely a believer in that, that ideas come from another place, and it's our job...
你知道，“女神，请帮助我。”我绝对相信这一点，想法来自另一个地方，这是我们的工作......
And I don't think it's the subconscious.
我不认为这是潜意识。
It's our job to open the pipeline and get out of the way.
我们的工作就是打开管道并让开。
Andrew Huberman: I love it.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我喜欢它。
I'm totally open to the idea that it's not the unconscious mind or the subconscious, whatever people want to call it.
我完全接受这样一种观点，即它不是无意识或潜意识，无论人们如何称呼它。
I'm sad to hear that this write-up of invocation of the muse burned.
听说这篇召唤缪斯的文章被烧毁，我感到很难过。
We should probably just mention that we used to be neighbors.
我们也许应该提一下我们曾经是邻居。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Your home burned in the fires, sadly.
安德鲁·休伯曼：可悲的是，你的家在大火中被烧毁了。
The home that I lived in, it was not my home, I was renting it, also burned in the fires.
我住的房子，不是我的家，是我租的，也被大火烧毁了。
So, my guess is that at some point during today's conversation, we'll talk about loss of objects and items.
所以，我的猜测是，在今天谈话的某个时刻，我们将讨论物体和物品的丢失。
Steven Pressfield: Uh huh, yeah.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯嗯，是的。
Andrew Huberman: But it sounds like this one was pretty precious.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但这听起来好像很珍贵。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
It was a sad thing to lose that, you know?
失去它是一件悲伤的事情，你知道吗？
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Steven Pressfield: But, you know, it's in my head, you know, so.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：但是，你知道，它就在我的脑海里，所以。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: How long is it?
安德鲁·休伯曼：多久了？
Steven Pressfield: It was on one page.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：它在一页上。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Double-spaced.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：双倍行距。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: I would say...
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：我想说……
To recite, it takes maybe 90 seconds.
背诵大约需要90秒。
Andrew Huberman: Do you have any interest or desire in calling it up now, or a portion of it?
Andrew Huberman：您现在有兴趣或渴望调用它，或者其中的一部分吗？
Steven Pressfield: I'll call up just the opening of it, because the middle part is Homer sort of describing the whole story of the "Odyssey."
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：我只提一下它的开头部分，因为中间部分是荷马在描述《奥德赛》的整个故事。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: But it starts like this.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：但事情是这样开始的。
It goes, "Oh, divine poesy, goddess daughter of Zeus, sustain for me this song of the various-minded man," meaning "Odysseus," and then he kind of goes on to talk about da-da-da-da.
它写道：“哦，神圣的诗篇，宙斯的女神女儿，请为我支持这首多才多艺的人的歌，”意思是“奥德修斯”，然后他继续谈论达达达达。
And at the end it says, "Make this tale live for us in all its many bearings, oh muse," which I think is a great-- You know, make it live, make it come alive in all its many bearings.
最后它说，“让这个故事在它的各个方面为我们而活，哦缪斯，”我认为这是伟大的——你知道，让它活起来，让它在它的各个方面都活起来。
And so, you know, that's-- Thanks to my friend Paul, that's been a thing that's been with me for 40 years.
所以，你知道，那就是——感谢我的朋友保罗，这件事已经伴随我 40 年了。
Andrew Huberman: I love it.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我喜欢它。
Well, we'll provide a link to the full script.
好吧，我们将提供完整脚本的链接。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Steven Pressfield: It's in "The War of Art," actually.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：实际上是在“艺术之战”中。
I wrote this out in "The War of Art."
我在《艺术的战争》中写下了这一点。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Steven Pressfield: I think it's on page 114 or 115.
Steven Pressfield：我想是在第 114 或 115 页。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
And if anyone hasn't read "War of Art," it's an absolute must-read.
如果有人还没有读过《艺术之战》，那么这绝对是必读之作。
I've read it many times.
我读过很多遍了。
I have an audiobook form, a hard copy form.
我有一个有声读物形式，一个硬拷贝形式。
It is awesome.
太棒了。
It is just awesome.
太棒了。
So, when you sit down to write, after you've recited this, how many times in the first 10 minutes do you think your mind flits to something else?
那么，当你背诵完这句话后，坐下来写作时，在前 10 分钟内，你认为你的思绪有多少次转移到了其他事情上？
Andrew Huberman: I mean, you're now a pro.
Andrew Huberman：我的意思是，你现在是一名职业选手了。
Like, you've written many books, and you know what is noise and you know what is signal, and you know if you really need to go to the bathroom or if you don't.
就像，你写了很多书，你知道什么是噪音，你知道什么是信号，你知道你是否真的需要去洗手间，或者如果你不需要。
You know, well, these are the things that pop up, right?
你知道，这些都是突然出现的东西，对吗？
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Steven Pressfield: Absolutely.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：当然。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊。
Andrew Huberman: As you point out, resistance comes in.
安德鲁·休伯曼：正如你所指出的，阻力出现了。
Oh, you know, I need another glass of water.
哦，你知道，我需要另一杯水。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Right.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Or I'm not caffeinated enough, or there's not enough sunlight coming through my window.
安德鲁·休伯曼：或者我的咖啡因含量不够，或者没有足够的阳光透过我的窗户。
Whatever, right?
无论如何，对吧？
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: How many times in the first 10 minutes, on a typical day, just give us an average, do you think your mind flits to-- Yeah, like, I wonder what's going on in the news?
Andrew Huberman：在典型的一天中，在前 10 分钟内有多少次，只要给我们一个平均值，您是否认为您的思绪会跳到 - 是的，就像，我想知道新闻中发生了什么？
Steven Pressfield: That's a great question.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：这是一个很好的问题。
Andrew Huberman: You know, like what's going on in the world?
安德鲁·休伯曼：你知道，就像世界上正在发生什么吗？
I mean, how many times?
我的意思是，有多少次？
One?
一个？
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Steven Pressfield: Never.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：从来没有。
Andrew Huberman: Two?
安德鲁·休伯曼：两个？
Never?
从来没有？
Steven Pressfield: Never.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：从来没有。
Now, that's not to say when I first started, many, many moons ago, that I didn't have a lot of that sort of stuff.
现在，这并不是说当我刚开始时，很多很多个月前，我没有很多这样的东西。
But I have...
但我有...
I don't know whether it's just over the years, I'm absolutely a believer in, like, diving straight into the pool, you know?
我不知道是否只是这些年来，我绝对相信，就像，直接跳进游泳池，你知道吗？
I don't sit there for one second wondering what I'm going to do.
我不会坐在那里思考我要做什么。
I just plunge right in, and, thank goodness, somehow I've learned how to do it, and I just focus full tilt on it.
我就一头扎进去，谢天谢地，不知怎么的，我已经学会了如何去做，而且我只是全神贯注于它。
So yeah, I don't have those thoughts at all.
所以是的，我根本没有这些想法。
Andrew Huberman: How long do you write in that first bout?
安德鲁·休伯曼：你在第一场比赛中写了多长时间？
Andrew Huberman: Before you make-
安德鲁·休伯曼：在你做之前-
Steven Pressfield: Maybe an hour.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：大概一个小时。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: And then I'll take a little bit of a break.
Steven Pressfield：然后我会休息一下。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: I love to do laundry.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：我喜欢洗衣服。
That's my big thing.
这是我的大事。
I'll put in the laundry at the start, and the load will be done, then I can put it into the dryer.
我会在开始时放入衣物，待衣物完成后，我就可以将其放入烘干机中。
I take a little break, and then I come back and start again for another hour.
我休息一会儿，然后回来再开始一个小时。
Andrew Huberman: Do you enjoy it or you enjoy clean laundry, or both?
Andrew Huberman：你喜欢它还是喜欢干净的衣服，或者两者兼而有之？
I mean, we-
我的意思是，我们——
Steven Pressfield: I just...
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：我只是……
I enjoy the, sort of the ritual of it and the craziness of it, you know?
我喜欢它的仪式感和疯狂，你知道吗？
Andrew Huberman: Not me.
安德鲁·休伯曼：不是我。
Not one bit.
一点也没有。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: The only thing I enjoy about doing laundry is clearing the lint trap.
Andrew Huberman：我洗衣服唯一喜欢的事情就是清除绒毛陷阱。
There's something very satisfying about that.
对此有一些非常令人满意的事情。
Steven Pressfield: That's the part I hate.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：这是我讨厌的部分。
I don't want to do that at all, but...
我根本不想这样做，但是...
Andrew Huberman: Interesting.
安德鲁·休伯曼：有趣。
All right.
好吧。
Well, we're not considering, but we'd make good roommates.
好吧，我们不考虑，但我们会成为很好的室友。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Interesting.
安德鲁·休伯曼：有趣。
So for an hour, you're locked in and you're just typing away.
所以在一个小时里，你被锁在里面，只是打字。
How often does your inner critic pop up nowadays versus at the beginning?
与一开始相比，现在你内心的批评家出现的频率是多少？
Meaning the "I don't know if this is going in the right direction." I've heard before that you're just supposed to create and then edit later.
意思是“我不知道这是否朝着正确的方向发展”。我以前听说过您只需创建然后稍后进行编辑。
What's your process there?
你那里的流程是怎样的？
Steven Pressfield: It almost never comes up, the inner critic.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德（Steven Pressfield）：内心批评家几乎从未出现过。
Again, it used to.
再说一次，以前也是这样。
You know, it used to all the time.
你知道，以前一直都是这样。
It was a terrible struggle I had for years.
这是我多年来经历的一场可怕的斗争。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: You know, you sit down and you think, "Well, does Hemingway...
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：你知道，你坐下来想，“嗯，海明威……
Would Hemingway write this sentence?" You know, right?
海明威会写这句话吗？”你知道，对吧？
Or, you know, "What will 'The New York Times' think when I write..." you know?
或者，你知道，“当我写……时《纽约时报》会怎么想”你知道吗？
But eventually, over time, you learn that you just can't deal with that bullshit, you know?
但最终，随着时间的推移，你会发现你无法处理那些废话，你知道吗？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: It drives you insane.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：它会让你发疯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: You know, so no, I don't let that inner critic come in, you know?
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：你知道，所以不，我不会让内心的批评者介入，你知道吗？
And I'm definitely a believer.
我绝对是一个信徒。
At the end of the day, I never read what I wrote.
到最后，我从来没有读过我写的东西。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: And I never look back on it the next day.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：第二天我再也不会回想起这件事。
I believe in multiple drafts.
我相信多个草稿。
Somebody taught me this one time that think in multiple drafts.
有人曾经教过我这一点，即在多个草稿中进行思考。
This was Jack Epps, the original writer of "Top Gun." I was working for him on a movie project, and he said, "Always think in multiple drafts." And you can only fix so much in one draft.
他是杰克·埃普斯，《壮志凌云》的原作者。我正在为他工作一个电影项目，他说，“总是要考虑多个草稿。”而且你只能在一份草稿中修复这么多内容。
You can only fix one thing in one draft.
您只能在一份草稿中修复一件事。
Steven Pressfield: So, I usually will think of...
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：所以，我通常会想到......
And I start a book, maybe 13, 14, or 15 drafts.
我开始写一本书，可能有 13、14 或 15 个草稿。
The last 7 or 8 would be really small, really slight changes.
最后的 7 或 8 个变化非常小，非常轻微。
Steven Pressfield: But I won't look back on the day's work because I'll figure on my next draft, then I'll read it fresh, and it'll look a million times, have a much more clear sense, "Is this any good?" Because if you do it when it's too fresh, you start to drive yourself crazy, you start to...
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：但我不会回顾当天的工作，因为我会思考下一个草稿，然后我会重新阅读它，它会看一百万次，有一个更清晰的感觉，“这有什么好处吗？”因为如果你在太新鲜的时候这样做，你就会开始让自己发疯，你就会开始……
You know, perfectionism, another form of resistance, comes in.
你知道，完美主义，另一种形式的抵抗，出现了。
So yeah, that's my process.
是的，这就是我的过程。
I know a lot of other people don't do it that way, but that's the way I do it.
我知道很多人不这样做，但我就是这么做的。
Steven Pressfield: When the day is done, the bell rings, the office is closed, that's it.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：当一天结束时，铃声响起，办公室就关门了，就这样。
I turn off my mind and just let the muse take care of it overnight, and I don't try not to worry about it at all.
我关掉自己的思绪，让缪斯在一夜之间处理它，我不会尝试完全不去担心它。
All I ask myself...
我只问自己...
I know I'm getting into the weeds here, really, Andrew.
我知道我真的陷入困境了，安德鲁。
Andrew Huberman: This is...
安德鲁·休伯曼：这是……
No, it's very important that you get into the weeds because I think you've offered many times through books and other podcasts, the contour and a lot of depth, but I think the more detail, the better.
不，深入了解非常重要，因为我认为您已经通过书籍和其他播客多次提供了轮廓和深度，但我认为细节越多越好。
Because everyone will do it slightly differently.
因为每个人的做法都会略有不同。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: But I think it's very important.
Andrew Huberman：但我认为这非常重要。
We rarely hear what people's real process is.
我们很少听到人们的真实过程是什么。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: So please, don't edit yourself here.
Andrew Huberman：所以请不要在这里编辑自己。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Steven Pressfield: At the end of a day's session, all I ask myself is, "Did I put in the time, and did I work as hard as I can?" Quality will take care of itself later, in the next draft or the next draft after that.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：在一天的训练结束时，我问自己的就是：“我是否投入了时间，是否尽了最大的努力？”质量会在以后的下一个草案或之后的下一个草案中自行解决。
But I never judge it, you know?
但我从不评判它，你知道吗？
And it took a long time to get to that place, to learn that, you know?
我花了很长时间才到达那个地方，才了解这一点，你知道吗？
Because I would drive myself insane for years and years, judging along the way.
因为我会在很多年里把自己逼疯，一路上判断。
Andrew Huberman: How long is the total writing session, depending on how much laundry you have to do?
Andrew Huberman：总的写作时间是多长，取决于你要洗多少衣服？
Steven Pressfield: Great questions.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：很好的问题。
I used to be able to write for four hours.
我以前可以写四个小时。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Now, I can only write for about two.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：现在，我只能写大约两个。
What I tell myself, and I think it's true, is I can do in two hours now what I used to do in four.
我告诉自己，我认为这是真的，我现在可以在两个小时内完成以前需要四个小时才能完成的事情。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: But I stop when I start making mistakes, when I start having typos and things like that.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：但是当我开始犯错误，当我开始出现打字错误之类的事情时，我就会停下来。
Then it's kind of like a workout at the gym.
然后这有点像在健身房锻炼。
You know when you've reached the end, "I'm just going to hurt myself if I do another set," you know?
你知道当你到达终点时，“如果我再做一组，我只会伤害自己，”你知道吗？
The point of diminishing returns.
收益递减点。
So, when I get tired, I stop, and I don't question it at all.
所以，当我累了的时候，我就停下来，根本不去质疑。
Steven Pressfield: I don't make myself feel bad about, "Oh, you can get another 10 minutes." Like Steinbeck used to say, pressing forward at the end of a long day to get just a little bit more is the falsest kind of economy, because you pay for it the next day.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：我不会因为“哦，你可以再多呆 10 分钟”而让自己感到难过。就像斯坦贝克过去常说的那样，在漫长的一天结束后继续努力以获得更多一点是最错误的经济，因为你会在第二天付出代价。
And Hemingway used to say he always stopped when he knew what was coming next in the story, which I also believe in that too, because that'll help you in that hairy first moment when you're sitting down, because at least you know, "Oh, okay, this is what's going to happen."
海明威曾经说过，当他知道故事接下来会发生什么时，他总是会停下来，我也相信这一点，因为这会在你坐下的第一时刻帮助你，因为至少你知道，“哦，好吧，这就是将要发生的事情。”
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Ah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：啊。
So, you leave sort of an ellipse in your mind so the next morning you know exactly where to pick up and the entry point is a little easier.
所以，你在脑海中留下了一个椭圆形，这样第二天早上你就知道从哪里开始，并且入口点会更容易一些。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah, exactly.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：是的，完全正确。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
The analogy to working out is a great one.
与锻炼的类比是一个很好的类比。
Years ago, when I started resistance training, I learned from Mike Mentzer.
几年前，当我开始阻力训练时，我向迈克·门泽学习。
I don't know if you ever overlapped with Mike at Gold's.
我不知道你是否曾与迈克在金店重叠过。
Steven Pressfield: No.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：不。
Andrew Huberman: He died some years ago.
安德鲁·休伯曼：他几年前去世了。
Steven Pressfield: But just to interrupt for a second, they call it resistance training, which is exactly what we're talking about for art.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：但先打断一下，他们称之为阻力训练，这正是我们谈论的艺术。
Yeah.
是的。
So, but please continue.
所以，但请继续。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Oh, yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah?
安德鲁·休伯曼：是吗？
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, excellent point.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，非常好的一点。
No, please.
不，请。
You know, there are a lot of theories out there about resistance training and how best to get muscles to grow and to get stronger, et cetera.
你知道，有很多关于阻力训练以及如何最好地让肌肉生长和变得更强等的理论。
At one extreme is you warm up, and then you do one set to absolute failure, maybe a second set you push through.
一个极端是你热身，然后你做一组绝对失败，也许你坚持完成第二组。
That's kind of the Mentzer high-intensity thing.
这就是门泽高强度的事情。
At the other extreme is volume, just lots and lots and lots of sets.
另一个极端是数量，只有很多很多组。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And there's been debate about this endlessly, and it has to do with all sorts of factors.
安德鲁·休伯曼：对此一直存在无休止的争论，这与各种因素有关。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: But the literature is now coming to a place where it's pretty clear that after warming up, the first one or two sets that you do are really the most valuable of a given exercise.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但是现在的文献已经很清楚地表明，在热身之后，你所做的前一组或两组确实是给定练习中最有价值的。
Steven Pressfield: Oh, I didn't know that.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：哦，我不知道。
Andrew Huberman: And almost certainly you need more than one set overall.
Andrew Huberman：几乎可以肯定，您总体上需要不止一套。
You certainly do.
你当然知道。
But it's really the intensity that you bring.
但这确实是你带来的强度。
But here's the point that is strongly analogous to what you're talking about when you say you used to be able to write for four hours a day.
但这一点与你所说的你过去每天可以写作四个小时的内容非常相似。
Now, you do two, and you tell yourself that you accomplished the same amount in those two.
现在，你做了两个，然后你告诉自己，你在这两个中完成了相同的量。
That's almost certainly true based on what we understand about neuroscience and, believe it or not, resistance training in the gym.
根据我们对神经科学以及健身房阻力训练（不管你信不信）的了解，这几乎肯定是正确的。
Steven Pressfield: Oh, I'm glad to hear that.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：哦，我很高兴听到这个消息。
Ah.
啊。
Steven Pressfield: Huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And the argument is that as you resistance train, or write, or play volleyball, or do any activity, you develop a better ability to recruit your nervous system to do the necessary work.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：争论的焦点是，当你进行阻力训练、写作、打排球或进行任何活动时，你会发展出更好的能力来招募你的神经系统来完成必要的工作。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: You said you didn't used to be able to just sit down and focus for an hour with minimal interruption in your mind.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：你说你过去不能坐下来集中注意力一个小时，而头脑中的干扰最少。
Now, you can.
现在，你可以了。
You learned that.
你学到了。
The more intensity that we can bring to something, the more focus we can bring to something, the more taxing it is.
我们对某事投入的强度越大，我们对某事的关注度越高，它就越费力。
Steven Pressfield: Hmm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Like, if I do one set in the gym with total concentration to absolute failure, which is very difficult to do when you first start training, because you barely know how to do the movement, right?
安德鲁·胡伯曼：就像，如果我在健身房里全神贯注地做一组，直到完全力竭，当你第一次开始训练时，这是很难做到的，因为你几乎不知道如何做这个动作，对吧？
Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: You're still learning.
Andrew Huberman：你还在学习。
Your nervous system is still learning.
你的神经系统仍在学习。
You can't inflict the same stimulus with one set that you can later, after you've practiced.
在练习之后，你无法在一组中施加同样的刺激。
Steven Pressfield: Hmm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Makes a lot of sense.
很有道理。
Andrew Huberman: And so, there's this counterintuitive thing that people in the high-performance field are really starting to adopt, and I talk to people in a bunch of different high-performance fields, not just exercise and creative works, that the better you get at something, the shorter your real work bouts should be and the more intense they should be.
Andrew Huberman：所以，高绩效领域的人们确实开始采用这种违反直觉的东西，我与许多不同高绩效领域的人们交谈，而不仅仅是锻炼和创意工作，你在某件事上做得越好，你真正的工作时间应该越短，并且应该越激烈。
Steven Pressfield: Oh.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：哦。
Steven Pressfield: Well, I feel better.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯，我感觉好多了。
Andrew Huberman: It's almost like a knife that's getting sharper and sharper.
Andrew Huberman：这几乎就像一把越来越锋利的刀。
You can cut deeper and deeper.
你可以切得越来越深。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Whereas at the beginning, we have sort of a dull blade, and we have to route over the same path.
Andrew Huberman：而一开始，我们的刀片有点钝，我们必须沿着相同的路径走线。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh, uh-huh.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯，嗯。
Andrew Huberman: So, I think this is a nervous system feature.
Andrew Huberman：所以，我认为这是神经系统的特征。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: And that's why it transcends physical and mental, creative and other types of works.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这就是为什么它超越了身体和精神、创造性和其他类型的作品。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Steven Pressfield: Oh.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：哦。
Andrew Huberman: Because if you talk to great musicians, they're not practicing 11 hours a day anymore.
Andrew Huberman：因为如果你和伟大的音乐家交谈，他们不再是每天练习 11 个小时了。
Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: They're practicing for three or four extremely focused hours, sometimes divided up by naps and meals.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：他们要练习三四个小时，高度集中，有时会小睡和吃饭。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: So, in any case...
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，无论如何......
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Very interesting.
非常有趣。
Andrew Huberman: So, you put in your two very focused hours, with some laundry in between.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：所以，你投入了两个非常专注的时间，中间洗了一些衣服。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And then you rack it.
Andrew Huberman：然后你就可以了。
You hang it up, and you don't look at it.
你把它挂起来，你也不看它。
Are you thinking about it throughout the day?
你整天都在思考这个问题吗？
Steven Pressfield: No. But like we were talking about, if an idea comes to me and I grab my phone and I dictate that.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：不。但就像我们正在谈论的那样，如果我想到一个想法，我就会拿起手机，然后我就会说出这个想法。
And let me say one thing here for anybody that's listening to this and would be, want to be writers, aspiring writers.
让我在这里对所有正在听这个并且想成为作家、有抱负的作家的人说一件事。
So, I'm a full-time writer.
所以，我是一名全职作家。
I don't have another job.
我没有其他工作。
I don't have to do anything.
我什么都不用做。
But yet, I can only get two hours at a time basically in a day.
但我基本上一天一次只能得到两个小时。
Steven Pressfield: So, if you guys have a full-time job, and kids, and a family, and a wife, and a spouse, whatever, if you can squeeze out a couple of hours a day, you're on the same level with me, the same level with a full-time writer.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：所以，如果你们有一份全职工作，有孩子，有家庭，有妻子，有配偶，无论如何，如果你们每天能挤出几个小时，那么你们就和我处于同一水平，与全职作家处于同一水平。
So, it is possible to have a full-time job and still do your artistic thing to a full-tilt version.
因此，你可以在拥有一份全职工作的同时，仍然全力以赴地从事你的艺术工作。
Andrew Huberman: Excellent point.
安德鲁·休伯曼：说得好。
How important do you think it is for you to start that writing session at more or less the same time each day?
您认为每天大约在同一时间开始写作对您来说有多重要？
You're not saying two hours in the morning, or two hours in the evening, two hours in the morning, or an hour in the morning, hour in the afternoon.
你不是说早上两个小时，或者晚上两个小时，早上两个小时，或者早上一个小时，下午一个小时。
It sounds like it's very regimented.
听起来好像是非常有规律的。
Steven Pressfield: It is.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
I think it's really important.
我认为这非常重要。
And when life was more predictable for me, I would always do it.
当生活对我来说更加可预测时，我总是会这样做。
But since the fires and other things like that, sometimes I have to shift time frames around and be ready to do that, you know?
但由于火灾和其他类似的事情，有时我必须改变时间框架并做好准备，你知道吗？
Steven Pressfield: I have a good friend, Jack Carr, the thriller writer who did "The Terminal List," and he's a master of writing in airplanes, and writing at Starbucks, because he's always traveling and doing all kinds of stuff and just finding the time.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：我有一个好朋友，杰克·卡尔，一位惊悚片作家，曾写过《终点站名单》，他是在飞机上写作和在星巴克写作的大师，因为他总是在旅行，做各种各样的事情，只是为了找时间。
God bless him.
上帝保佑他。
I don't know how he does it.
我不知道他是怎么做到的。
And he is incredibly productive.
而且他的工作效率非常高。
I don't know if I could do that.
我不知道我是否能做到这一点。
Maybe I will shift from writing from 11:00 to 1:00, to writing from 1:00 to 3:00, but that's about the most variance I can put into it.
也许我会从 11:00 到 1:00 写作，改为从 1:00 到 3:00 写作，但这就是我能投入的最大变化。
Andrew Huberman: Do you have your phone in the room when you write?
Andrew Huberman：当你写作时，你的手机放在房间里吗？
And is the internet engaged on your computer when you write?
当您写作时，您的计算机是否正在连接互联网？
Steven Pressfield: Not at all.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：一点也不。
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman: Both of those are...
安德鲁·休伯曼：两者都是……
Steven Pressfield: I mean, my phone is there maybe to dictate a note or something like that.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：我的意思是，我的手机可能是用来口述笔记或类似的东西。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Steven Pressfield: But otherwise, no. Absolutely not.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：但除此之外，不会。绝对不是。
And, yeah, I can't even imagine that.
是的，我什至无法想象这一点。
Andrew Huberman: Music?
安德鲁·休伯曼：音乐？
Steven Pressfield: No. No music.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：不，没有音乐。
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman: Just the sound of your own breathing.
Andrew Huberman：只是你自己的呼吸声。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah, yeah.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：是的，是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
What's that?
那是什么？
Steven Pressfield: Because you're in your own head, right?
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：因为你有自己的想法，对吧？
You're in that universe, you know?
你就在那个宇宙里，你知道吗？
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
This is what I find so odd about writing, is you're in your head, it's your voice in your head, but you're in a conversation with the potential audience.
这就是我觉得写作的奇怪之处，就是你在你的脑海里，你的声音在你的脑海里，但你是在与潜在的观众对话。
What is the actual dialogue?
真正的对话是什么？
Are you thinking...
你是否在想...
This gets a little philosophical, but at the end of the day, it's very concrete.
这有点哲学性，但归根结底，它是非常具体的。
Andrew Huberman: Are you thinking about a conversation with the audience, or are you just translating thoughts into words and the audience doesn't exist yet?
Andrew Huberman：你是在考虑与观众进行对话，还是你只是将想法转化为文字，而观众还不存在？
Steven Pressfield: I'm very aware of the reader in the sense of...
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德（Steven Pressfield）：我非常了解读者……
Let's say it's a scene that I'm writing, and I know certain things have to happen in this scene.
假设这是我正在写的一个场景，并且我知道这个场景中必须发生某些事情。
Character A has to do something, Character B, da, da, da, da.
角色A必须做某事，角色B，哒，哒，哒，哒。
And so, I'm trying to put that down, but I'm thinking, "Is the reader understanding?
所以，我试图把它记下来，但我在想，“读者理解吗？
Have I got this in the right order for them?
我为他们提供的顺序是否正确？
Am I boring them?
我让他们无聊吗？
Did I say that two pages ago, and now I'm repeating myself?
我是不是在两页前就说过了，现在又重复了？
Steven Pressfield: But I'm not having a conversation.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：但我没有在谈话。
I'm just trying to make it as easy, and as interesting, and as fun as I can for the reader.
我只是尽力让读者变得简单、有趣、有趣。
And always, I'm trying to make sure that I'm leading them.
我始终努力确保自己能够领导他们。
I'm seducing them.
我在引诱他们。
I'm trying to reel them in, and not bore them, you know?
我正在努力把它们卷起来，而不是让它们感到无聊，你知道吗？
Steven Pressfield: By the end of this chapter or scene, I want the reader to be thinking, "Oh, I can't wait to turn the page and see what happens next."
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：在本章或场景结束时，我希望读者能够思考，“哦，我迫不及待地想翻开这一页，看看接下来会发生什么。”
Andrew Huberman: Growing up, were you a storyteller among your friends?
安德鲁·休伯曼：在成长过程中，你是朋友中的一个讲故事的人吗？
Steven Pressfield: No. I never even thought about it as a kid.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：不。我小时候从来没有想过这个问题。
Andrew Huberman: Like, hanging out with friends, you wouldn't tell a story about what had happened three days ago?
安德鲁·休伯曼：就像和朋友一起出去玩时，你不会讲三天前发生的事情吗？
Steven Pressfield: No. I mean, just like anybody else would.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：不。我的意思是，就像其他人一样。
But no, I was never a storyteller, or anything.
但不，我从来都不是一个讲故事的人，或者什么的。
I was not a kid that wanted to be a writer.
我不是一个想成为作家的孩子。
I never thought about it at all.
我根本没有想过这个问题。
Andrew Huberman: Hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
So, you just kind of tripped and fell into all this?
那么，你只是绊倒并陷入了这一切吗？
Steven Pressfield: I mean, my first job was in advertising in New York City, right out of college.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：我的意思是，我大学毕业后的第一份工作是在纽约从事广告工作。
Andrew Huberman: Uh-huh.
安德鲁·休伯曼： 嗯。
Andrew Huberman: This is like the "Mad Men" thing.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这就像“广告狂人”的事情。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah, yeah.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：是的，是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Steven Pressfield: But I guess at the time I thought, "Oh, I'd love to write a commercial that people said, 'Oh, that was great.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：但我想当时我想，“哦，我很想写一个广告，人们会说，‘哦，那太棒了。
It was so funny.
太有趣了。
I loved that thing.'" So, that sort of got me kind of a little bit started into the idea of storytelling.
我喜欢那个东西。’”所以，这让我开始有了讲故事的想法。
And then I had a boss, his name was Ed Hannibal, and he wrote a book kind of at home, and it became a hit, you know?
然后我有一个老板，他的名字叫埃德·汉尼拔，他在家写了一本书，这本书很受欢迎，你知道吗？
And it was called "Chocolate Days, Popsicle Weeks," and he quit to become a novelist.
这被称为“巧克力日，冰棒周”，他辞职成为一名小说家。
Steven Pressfield: And so I thought, "Well, s***, why don't I do that?" You know?
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：所以我想，“好吧，妈的，我为什么不这样做呢？”你知道？
So, that was what sort of started me into it, being completely naive and totally stupid, and having no idea of what I was doing.
所以，这就是我开始做这件事的原因，我完全天真、完全愚蠢，而且不知道自己在做什么。
Andrew Huberman: That's wild.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这太疯狂了。
So, I imagined you as the kid who was always coming in, telling stories, and you were writing in the background.
所以，我把你想象成那个总是进来讲故事的孩子，而你则在后台写作。
Steven Pressfield: No, not at all.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：不，一点也不。
Andrew Huberman: Advertising's pretty interesting, though, because it's the same process.
Andrew Huberman：不过，广告非常有趣，因为它是相同的过程。
You have to get into the mind of the audience.
你必须走进观众的心里。
You have a story to tell.
你有一个故事要讲。
And I guess with advertising the goal is a purchase, and with writing, the idea is they buy into the next page.
我想广告的目标是购买，而写作的目标是他们购买下一页。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Something like that.
安德鲁·休伯曼：类似的事情。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah, yeah.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：是的，是的。
Very similar in that sense, you know?
从这个意义上来说非常相似，你知道吗？
Andrew Huberman: Any ads that you recall particularly enjoying working?
Andrew Huberman：您记得有什么特别喜欢做的广告吗？
Steven Pressfield: No, I was terrible.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：不，我很糟糕。
I was never any good at it.
我从来都不擅长。
You know, I never made any money.
你知道，我从来没有赚过钱。
I was never successful at all.
我从来没有成功过。
But I met a lot of nice people, and I learned a lot of stuff in that.
但我遇到了很多好人，并从中学到了很多东西。
Andrew Huberman: You said that was in New York City?
安德鲁·休伯曼：你说那是在纽约市？
Steven Pressfield: It was in New York City.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：那是在纽约市。
In fact, if I can hype one of my books, it's a small follow-up to "The War of Art" called "Nobody Wants to Read Your S***." And a lot of it is about what you learn in advertising, because nobody wants to read your ads, or listen to your commercials, or anything like that.
事实上，如果我可以炒作我的一本书，那就是《艺术之战》的一个小后续，名为《没人想读你的S***》。其中很多是关于你在广告中学到的东西，因为没有人愿意阅读你的广告，或听你的广告，或类似的东西。
Steven Pressfield: And so, one thing you learn in that business is to make it so good, or so interesting, so intriguing, that people will overcome their hatred of having to listen to your stupid Preparation H commercial.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：所以，你在这个行业学到的一件事就是让它变得如此出色，或如此有趣，如此引人入胜，以至于人们会克服他们对不得不听你愚蠢的Preparation H广告的憎恨。
So, anyway, that was what got me started.
所以，无论如何，这就是我开始的原因。
But I was never a storyteller as a kid.
但我小时候从来都不是一个讲故事的人。
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman: I'd like to go back to the quote that we started with.
Andrew Huberman：我想回到我们开始时引用的那句话。
"The more important to your soul's growth, the stronger the resistance will be." I think many people will hear that, including myself, and will think, "Okay, what is my soul's growth?
“对你的灵魂成长越重要，反抗就越强烈。”我想很多人听到这句话，包括我自己，都会想：“好吧，我的灵魂成长是什么呢？
Where does it want to go?" You know, I think when we hear the words "soul" and "growth," particularly when it's about us, we think there's going to be this big sign written on the heavens about what we're supposed to do, and we're going to feel compelled to do it.
它想去哪里？”你知道，我认为当我们听到“灵魂”和“成长”这两个词时，特别是当它与我们有关时，我们认为天空上会写下这个大标志，告诉我们应该做什么，我们会感到有必要去做。
Andrew Huberman: You're saying the opposite, that the thing that we need to do most sometimes is hidden from us.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你说的恰恰相反，我们最需要做的事情有时对我们来说是隐藏的。
The muse perhaps can reveal that, and it's through the act of writing, without knowing what the work even is, that sometimes we arrive there.
缪斯也许可以揭示这一点，正是通过写作的行为，即使我们不知道作品是什么，有时我们也会到达那里。
So, for people that don't have a crystallized idea yet, and they want to explore their creative sense.
所以，对于那些还没有具体想法、想要探索自己的创造力的人来说。
Andrew Huberman: They might want to do it through writing, they might want to do it through pottery, they might want to do it through music, they might want to do it through making movies, any number of things.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：他们可能想通过写作来做到这一点，他们可能想通过陶器来做到这一点，他们可能想通过音乐来做到这一点，他们可能想通过制作电影来做到这一点，等等。
What's the translation from "the thing you need most is the thing you're resisting most" to actually getting into the process of evolving that thing out of us?
从“你最需要的东西就是你最抗拒的东西”到真正进入从我们身上进化出那个东西的过程是什么？
Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: It sounds like an extrusion process, like you're trying to push semi-solid concrete through a filter, but I want to know what the filter is.
Andrew Huberman：这听起来像是一个挤压过程，就像你试图将半固态混凝土推过过滤器一样，但我想知道过滤器是什么。
Steven Pressfield: It's a great question.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：这是一个很好的问题。
Steven Pressfield: I mean, I know that young people today, there's a tremendous amount of pressure on people to find their passion, and follow their passion, and so on and so forth.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：我的意思是，我知道今天的年轻人面临着巨大的压力，需要找到自己的激情，并追随自己的激情，等等。
And I know, for me, as a young person, I would go, "What the f*** is that?
我知道，对于我来说，作为一个年轻人，我会说，“那是什么鬼？
I don't know what it is that I want to do," you know?
我不知道我想做什么，”你知道吗？
"I'm lost.
“我迷路了。
I'm just struggling." But I do think that we are all born with some sort of a, at least one, a kind of calling of some kind.
我只是在挣扎。”但我确实认为我们生来就带有某种，至少一种，某种召唤。
Steven Pressfield: And it may not be the arts.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：这可能不是艺术。
You know, it may be helping other people through some kind of a nonprofit or something, or like what you're doing, Andrew, where you're bringing neuroscience and the scientific to personal development, and so on and so forth.
你知道，它可能是通过某种非营利组织或其他方式帮助其他人，或者就像你正在做的事情，安德鲁，你将神经科学和科学带入个人发展，等等。
I think we do all have some sort of calling, and we know it.
我认为我们都有某种使命，而且我们知道这一点。
Steven Pressfield: Like, if we could somehow put somebody in here and say, "I'll give you three seconds, tell me what you should be supposed to be doing." It will pop into somebody's head.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：就像，如果我们能以某种方式让某人在这里说：“我给你三秒钟，告诉我你应该做什么。”它会突然出现在某人的脑海中。
You know, they go, "Oh, I know I've always wanted to be a motorcycle..." Whatever, you know?
你知道，他们会说，“哦，我知道我一直想成为一辆摩托车……”无论如何，你知道吗？
But then that sort of whisper urge to do this thing is immediately countered by this force of resistance, because it's trying to stop us.
但是，那种想要做这件事的低声冲动会立即被这种抵抗力量所抵消，因为它试图阻止我们。
It's the devil.
这是魔鬼。
It's trying to stop us from being our true selves and becoming self-realized, self-actualized, or whatever.
它试图阻止我们成为真正的自己、自我实现、自我实现等等。
Steven Pressfield: So, resistance will immediately say to us...
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：所以，抵抗会立即对我们说……
Like if you were to say, "Oh, I want to have a podcast and I want to talk about science." Immediately resistance would say, "Well, who are you, Andrew, to do this thing?
就像你说：“哦，我想要一个播客，我想谈论科学。”立即有人会说：“安德鲁，你是谁，竟然敢做这件事？
I mean, you're a professor at Stanford.
我的意思是，你是斯坦福大学的教授。
You don't have any experience doing this.
你没有任何这方面的经验。
Not to mention it's been done a million times by other people.
更不用说其他人已经做过一百万次了。
They've done it a thousand times better than you.
他们比你做得好一千倍。
Nobody's going to give a s***.
没有人会在意。
You're going to put this out there, you're going to embarrass yourself.
你要把这个放在那里，你会让自己难堪。
You had a certain level of prestige at Stanford, now you're an idiot." It's going to be that voice, right?
你在斯坦福大学有一定的威望，现在你是个白痴。”一定是那个声音，对吗？
Andrew Huberman: And some people actually said, "Stanford's not going to like it.
安德鲁·休伯曼：有些人实际上说，“斯坦福大学不会喜欢它。
Why would you do this?
你为什么要这样做？
You're tenured at Stanford.
你在斯坦福大学获得了终身教职。
What are you doing?
你在做什么？
You're funded, and your lab's publishing well." One of those people was my father, who's also a scientist.
你得到了资助，你的实验室也发表得很好。”其中一个人就是我的父亲，他也是一名科学家。
My process of pushing back on that...
我反驳这一点的过程......
Steven Pressfield: I rest my case.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：我休息一下。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Steven Pressfield: And the true part here, the really kind of interesting part, is a lot of times those voices will be the voices closest to us.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：这里真正的部分，真正有趣的部分是，很多时候这些声音将是离我们最近的声音。
Our spouse, our father, because...
我们的配偶，我们的父亲，因为...
Well, I can get into that.
好吧，我可以进入这一点。
I'll get into that if we want to continue.
如果我们想继续，我会讨论这个问题。
But in any event, so that voice of resistance will come up.
但无论如何，这样反抗的声音都会出现。
In addition, resistance will try to distract us.
此外，阻力会试图分散我们的注意力。
It'll try to make us procrastinate.
它会试图让我们拖延。
It'll try to make us yield to perfectionism, where we noodle over one sentence for three days, or fear, all of the other things will stop us.
它会试图让我们屈服于完美主义，我们三天内都在思考一个句子，或者担心所有其他事情都会阻止我们。
Steven Pressfield: So, many people live their entire lives and never enact their real calling, you know?
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：所以，很多人一生都没有实现自己真正的使命，你知道吗？
But we were talking about the more important to the growth of your soul, that was what we started with this, right?
但我们谈论的是对你灵魂的成长更重要的事情，这就是我们的出发点，对吧？
Steven Pressfield: So, that calling, whatever it is, to be a writer, a filmmaker, or whatever it is, if we don't do that in our life, that energy doesn't go away.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：所以，无论是什么，成为一名作家、电影制片人或其他什么，如果我们在生活中不这样做，那么这种能量就不会消失。
It becomes...
它变成...
It goes into a more malignant channel, right?
它进入了一个更恶性的通道，对吗？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: And it shows itself in maybe an addiction, alcoholism, cruelty to others, abuse of others, abuse of ourselves, porn, you name it.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：它可能表现为成瘾、酗酒、残忍对待他人、虐待他人、虐待我们自己、色情，凡是你能想到的。
Steven Pressfield: Any of the sort of vices that people have, because that original creative divine energy that really wants to be the "Odyssey" or something like that, if we yield to our own resistance and don't evolve that, then bad things happen.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：人们所拥有的任何恶习，因为真正想要成为“奥德赛”或类似东西的原始创造性神圣能量，如果我们屈服于我们自己的抵抗并且不发展它，那么糟糕的事情就会发生。
Steven Pressfield: On the other hand, if we do follow that, we kind of open ourselves up to becoming who we really are.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：另一方面，如果我们确实遵循这一点，我们就会敞开心扉，成为真正的自己。
And a lot of people in podcasting, and the human development, or whatever they call it, personal development world, they sort of promise like some sort of nirvana is going to happen if you do X, Y, Z.
播客中的很多人，以及人类发展，或者无论他们称之为个人发展世界，他们都承诺，如果你做 X、Y、Z，就会发生某种涅槃。
Steven Pressfield: But what I'm promising is a f*** of a lot of hard work that's probably never going to be rewarded, but you'll be on the track that your soul was meant to be on.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：但我承诺的是大量的艰苦工作，可能永远不会得到回报，但你会走上你灵魂本应走的轨道。
And God bless you.
上帝保佑你。
You can't ask for any more than that.
你不能要求更多。
Andrew Huberman: And sometimes it works out at spectacular levels of whatever, income, fame, whatever it is that people think they might want, but that's not really the thing to chase.
安德鲁·休伯曼：有时它会达到令人惊叹的水平，收入、名誉、人们认为他们可能想要的任何东西，但这并不是真正要追逐的东西。
Steven Pressfield: Right.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：对。
Andrew Huberman: We'll talk about that.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我们会讨论这个。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah, we'll talk about that.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的，我们会讨论这个。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: So, sometimes it's the lottery of life.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，有时这就是人生的彩票。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Steven Pressfield: Sometimes.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：有时。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Sometimes.
安德鲁·休伯曼：有时。
But that absolutely should not be the thing that people are chasing.
但这绝对不应该是人们所追求的东西。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
I only know my own experience, and I couldn't help but reflect a little bit on when I was deciding to do the podcast, and I did get some voices back like, "Hey, maybe that's...
我只知道我自己的经历，当我决定做播客时，我忍不住反思了一下，我确实得到了一些声音，比如，“嘿，也许那是......
What are you doing?" I'm not clinically diagnosed with Tourette's or anything like that, but I felt at that point that I had a certain amount of knowledge in me, based on 25 years of studying and research in neuroscience and related fields.
你在做什么？”我在临床上并未被诊断出患有图雷特氏症或类似疾病，但基于 25 年在神经科学及相关领域的学习和研究，我当时觉得自己已经掌握了一定的知识。
And I felt like if I didn't let it out, I was going to explode.
我感觉如果我不把它释放出来，我就会爆炸。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And so, Rob, my producer, and my bulldog, Costello, and I went into a small closet in Topanga, and set up some cameras, and I exploded onto the camera.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，罗布、我的制片人、我的斗牛犬科斯特洛和我走进了托潘加的一个小壁橱，架起了一些摄像机，然后我就在摄像机前爆发了。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: It just poured out.
安德鲁·休伯曼：它刚刚倾盆而下。
I think for the entire first year, we were doing almost all solos, hardly any guests, because it was a pandemic, and we weren't quite yet sitting down with guests.
我想在整个第一年，我们几乎都在做独奏，几乎没有嘉宾，因为这是一场流行病，我们还没有和嘉宾坐下来。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Oh, I didn't know that.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：哦，我不知道。
Andrew Huberman: And I don't even remember thinking about the hundreds of hours of preparation.
Andrew Huberman：我什至不记得考虑过数百个小时的准备工作。
We did hundreds of hours of preparation for each episode.
我们为每一集做了数百个小时的准备。
But the just...
但刚刚...
I just feel like it just kind of geysered out.
我只是觉得它就像间歇泉一样。
So, I think there's some benefit to having something build up so much within us that it has to come out.
所以，我认为让我们内心积聚如此多的东西必须将其释放出来是有一定好处的。
Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And I can certainly relate to the dangers of suppressing something.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我当然能体会到压制某些事物的危险。
I think that you...
我认为你...
Steven Pressfield: And how old were you when you started that?
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：你开始做这件事的时候多大了？
Andrew Huberman: Forty-five years old.
安德鲁·休伯曼：四十五岁。
Steven Pressfield: Forty-five.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：四十五岁。
Ah.
啊。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, so I was kind of late to it.
Andrew Huberman：是的，所以我有点晚了。
Now, I had lectured in front of students and given seminars, and lectured in front of donors, which is in some ways similar to the podcast in the sense that you're teaching science often to non-scientists or diverse fields.
现在，我在学生面前演讲，举办研讨会，在捐助者面前演讲，这在某种程度上类似于播客，因为你经常向非科学家或不同领域教授科学。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: But, for me, it was just inside.
Andrew Huberman：但是，对我来说，它就在里面。
I couldn't help it.
我忍不住了。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: My only answer was I couldn't help it.
Andrew Huberman：我唯一的答案是我无能为力。
And to his credit, by the way, my dad has been immensely supportive of the podcast.
顺便说一句，值得赞扬的是，我父亲非常支持这个播客。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: He actually was on the podcast.
安德鲁·休伯曼：他实际上在播客上。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: And gave us a chance to bond and learn about him.
Andrew Huberman：给了我们一个联系和了解他的机会。
Steven Pressfield: Oh, that's great.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：哦，那太好了。
Andrew Huberman: And he's a scientist, so I got to learn some physics.
安德鲁·休伯曼：他是一名科学家，所以我必须学习一些物理学。
The audience got to learn some physics as well.
观众还必须学习一些物理。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: But, yeah, when you take on something that people are not familiar with you doing, or they are projecting onto you the sense that they want you safe and secure, because sometimes it's a real, it's a genuine kind of feeling of support for somebody, you know?
安德鲁·休伯曼：但是，是的，当你承担人们不熟悉你所做的事情时，或者他们向你投射他们希望你安全的感觉，因为有时这是一种真实的、对某人的真正的支持感，你知道吗？
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: A mother, or father, or siblings like, "Hey, so you're going to give up your job as a lawyer to go write movie scripts?"
安德鲁·休伯曼：母亲、父亲或兄弟姐妹会说，“嘿，所以你要放弃律师工作去写电影剧本？”
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And you got three kids, and they're scared for you because they don't want to see you take your life off a cliff.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你有三个孩子，他们为你感到害怕，因为他们不想看到你把自己的生命推向悬崖。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: What's your response to that?
安德鲁·休伯曼：你对此有何回应？
Steven Pressfield: I mean, there's validity to that, obviously.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：我的意思是，这显然是有道理的。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Steven Pressfield: But I think what happens is that each person is dealing with their own resistance, their own calling, that they know that they really should be doing, and 99.999% of them are not doing it, or are unconscious of it, right?
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：但我认为，每个人都在应对自己的阻力、自己的呼唤，他们知道自己真正应该做的事情，而 99.999% 的人没有这样做，或者没有意识到，对吗？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: It's sort of a niggling thing, but they don't know about it.
Steven Pressfield：这是一件小事，但他们不知道。
So, then when they see you, Andrew, starting your podcast, that's a reproach to them.
所以，当他们看到你，安德鲁，开始你的播客时，这对他们来说是一种责备。
And they say, "Well, if Andrew can do it, why can't I do it?" You know?
他们说：“好吧，如果安德鲁能做到，为什么我不能做到呢？”你知道？
And so, then it becomes kind of malicious.
所以，它就变得有点恶意了。
And I don't think it's deliberately malicious a lot of times, but people will then try to undermine you and say, under the guise of, "We're only looking out for you.
我不认为很多时候这是故意恶意的，但人们会试图破坏你，并打着“我们只是在照顾你”的幌子说。
We don't want your children to be starving and in the street," they will try to undermine you and stop you from doing it, and make fun of you or ridicule you.
我们不希望你的孩子挨饿流落街头”，他们会试图破坏你、阻止你这样做，并取笑你或嘲笑你。
Like the filmmaker David O.
就像电影制片人大卫·O.
Russell.
拉塞尔.
I don't know if you know who I'm talking about.
我不知道你是否知道我在说谁。
He did "The Fighter" with Mark Wahlberg.
他与马克·沃尔伯格合作拍摄了《斗士》。
Andrew Huberman: I love that movie.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我喜欢那部电影。
Steven Pressfield: He did "Silver Linings Playbook," with Jennifer Lawrence and Bradley Cooper.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：他与詹妮弗·劳伦斯和布莱德利·库珀一起制作了《乌云背后的幸福线》。
Andrew Huberman: I did not see that one, but I did see "The Fighter."
安德鲁·休伯曼：我没有看过那部，但我确实看过《斗士》。
Steven Pressfield: And "Joy," about the lady who invented the Miracle Mop, which was Jennifer Lawrence.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：还有《欢乐》，讲述的是发明奇迹拖把的女士，詹妮弗·劳伦斯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: And all of these stories are about sabotage by the people closest to you, particularly your family.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：所有这些故事都是关于你最亲近的人，特别是你的家人的破坏行为。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Like in "The Fighter," Mark Wahlberg is this boxer, right?
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：就像《斗士》中的那样，马克·沃尔伯格就是这位拳击手，对吧？
And he's got seven sisters, and he also has an older brother, and they're like...
他有七个姐妹，还有一个哥哥，他们就像......
And his mom is his manager, and she's booking him fights where he's outweighed by 20 pounds and he gets massacred, you know?
他的妈妈是他的经理，她为他安排了一场比赛，他的体重比他重了 20 磅，然后他就会被屠杀，你知道吗？
Andrew Huberman: True story of Micky Ward.
安德鲁·休伯曼：米基·沃德的真实故事。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Right.
安德鲁·休伯曼：对。
Yeah.
是的。
Steven Pressfield: And the story is he finally meets a girl who's really supportive of him.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：故事是他终于遇到了一个真正支持他的女孩。
But anyway, it's a real theme that the people closest to us will try to...
但无论如何，这是一个真正的主题，我们最亲近的人会尝试......
They don't want us...
他们不想要我们...
They're happy the way, you know, "We like you, Andrew, the way you are." You know, "Our son, we know he's working at Stanford, he's doing his thing, we don't want to see him..." It may be unconscious.
他们很高兴，你知道，“我们喜欢你，安德鲁，你本来的样子。”你知道，“我们的儿子，我们知道他在斯坦福大学工作，他正在做他的事情，我们不想看到他......”这可能是无意识的。
I'm not knocking your dad.
我不会敲你爸爸。
"We don't want to see him suddenly burst out of the cocoon and become a butterfly and wing away from us," you know?
“我们不想看到他突然破茧成蝶，展翅离我们而去”，你知道吗？
So, they like you the way they are, you know.
所以，他们喜欢你本来的样子，你知道的。
The way you are.
你就是这样。
Andrew Huberman: We've known for a long time that there are things that we can do to improve our sleep, and that includes things that we can take, things like magnesium threonate, theanine, chamomile extract, and glycine, along with lesser-known things like saffron and valerian root.
Andrew Huberman：我们很早就知道我们可以采取一些措施来改善睡眠，其中包括我们可以服用的东西，例如苏糖酸镁、茶氨酸、洋甘菊提取物和甘氨酸，以及一些不太为人所知的东西，例如藏红花和缬草根。
These are all clinically supported ingredients that can help you fall asleep, stay asleep, and wake up feeling more refreshed.
这些都是经过临床支持的成分，可以帮助您入睡、保持睡眠状态，并且醒来时感觉更加神清气爽。
I'm excited to share that our longtime sponsor, AG1, just created a new product called AGZ, a nightly drink designed to help you get better sleep and have you wake up feeling super refreshed.
我很高兴与大家分享，我们的长期赞助商 AG1 刚刚创造了一款名为 AGZ 的新产品，这是一种夜间饮料，旨在帮助您获得更好的睡眠，让您醒来时感觉神清气爽。
Andrew Huberman: Over the past few years, I've worked with the team at AG1 to help create this new AGZ formula.
Andrew Huberman：在过去的几年里，我与 AG1 的团队合作，帮助创建了这个新的 AGZ 公式。
It has the best sleep-supporting compounds in exactly the right ratios in one easy-to-drink mix.
它在一种易于饮用的混合物中以完全正确的比例含有最好的睡眠支持化合物。
This removes all the complexity of trying to forage the vast landscape of supplements focused on sleep, and figuring out the right dosages and which ones to take for you.
这消除了尝试寻找大量针对睡眠的补充剂、确定正确剂量以及适合您服用的补充剂的所有复杂性。
AGZ is, to my knowledge, the most comprehensive sleep supplement on the market.
据我所知，AGZ 是市场上最全面的睡眠补充剂。
Andrew Huberman: I take it 30 to 60 minutes before sleep, it's delicious, by the way, and it dramatically increases both the quality and the depth of my sleep.
Andrew Huberman：我在睡前 30 到 60 分钟服用它，顺便说一句，它很美味，而且它极大地提高了我的睡眠质量和深度。
I know that both from my subjective experience of my sleep, and because I track my sleep.
我知道这一点，既来自我对睡眠的主观体验，也因为我跟踪了我的睡眠。
I'm excited for everyone to try this new AGZ formulation, and to enjoy the benefits of better sleep.
我很高兴每个人都能尝试这种新的 AGZ 配方，并享受更好睡眠的好处。
AGZ is available in chocolate, chocolate mint, and mixed berry flavors.
AGZ 有巧克力、巧克力薄荷和混合浆果口味。
And as I mentioned before, they're all extremely delicious.
正如我之前提到的，它们都非常美味。
My favorite of the three has to be, I think, chocolate mint, but I really like them all.
我认为这三者中我最喜欢的是巧克力薄荷，但我真的很喜欢它们。
Andrew Huberman: If you'd like to try AGZ, go to drinkagz.com/huberman to get a special offer.
Andrew Huberman：如果您想尝试 AGZ，请访问 Drinkagz.com/huberman 获取特别优惠。
Again, that's drinkagz.com/huberman.
再说一遍，这是 Drinkagz.com/huberman。
Andrew Huberman: Today's episode is also brought to us by Rorra.
Andrew Huberman：今天的节目也是由 Rorra 为我们带来的。
Rorra makes what I believe are the best water filters on the market.
我认为 Rorra 制造的是市场上最好的滤水器。
It's an unfortunate reality, but tap water often contains contaminants that negatively impact our health.
这是一个不幸的现实，但自来水通常含有对我们的健康产生负面影响的污染物。
Andrew Huberman: In fact, a 2020 study by the Environmental Working Group estimated that more than 200 million Americans are exposed to PFAS chemicals, also known as forever chemicals, through drinking of tap water.
Andrew Huberman：事实上，环境工作组 2020 年的一项研究估计，超过 2 亿美国人通过饮用自来水接触到 PFAS 化学物质，也称为永久化学物质。
These forever chemicals are linked to serious health issues, such as hormone disruption, gut microbiome disruption, fertility issues, and many other health problems.
这些永久性化学物质与严重的健康问题有关，例如激素紊乱、肠道微生物群破坏、生育问题和许多其他健康问题。
The Environmental Working Group has also shown that over 122 million Americans drink tap water with high levels of chemicals known to cause cancer.
环境工作组还表明，超过 1.22 亿美国人饮用的自来水含有大量已知致癌化学物质。
Andrew Huberman: It's for all these reasons that I'm thrilled to have Rorra as a sponsor of this podcast.
Andrew Huberman：出于所有这些原因，我很高兴 Rorra 成为这个播客的赞助商。
I've been using the Rorra countertop system for almost a year now.
我使用 Rorra 台面系统已经快一年了。
Rorra's filtration technology removes harmful substances, including endocrine disruptors and disinfection byproducts, while preserving beneficial minerals like magnesium and calcium.
Rorra 的过滤技术可去除有害物质，包括内分泌干扰物和消毒副产物，同时保留镁和钙等有益矿物质。
It requires no installation or plumbing, it's built from medical-grade stainless steel, and its sleek design fits beautifully on your countertop.
它不需要安装或管道，由医用级不锈钢制成，其时尚的设计非常适合您的台面。
In fact, I consider it a welcome addition to my kitchen.
事实上，我认为它对我的厨房来说是一个受欢迎的补充。
It looks great, and the water is delicious.
看起来很棒，水也很美味。
Andrew Huberman: If you'd like to try Rorra, you can go to rorra.com/huberman and get an exclusive discount.
Andrew Huberman：如果您想尝试 Rorra，您可以访问 rorra.com/huberman 并获得独家折扣。
Again, that's Rorra, R-O-R-R-A.com/huberman.
再说一次，那是 Rorra，R-O-R-R-A.com/huberman。
Andrew Huberman: We've had several clinical psychologists on the podcast, and a resounding theme from them has been that it is astounding, and yet consistent, that people will remain in a not-so-great place that they understand and is predictable in exchange for what they could do, stepping into some new life, even getting over their anger about something.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我们的播客中有几位临床心理学家，他们的一个响亮的主题是，令人震惊但始终如一的是，人们将继续处于一个他们理解且可预测的不太好的地方，以换取他们可以做的事情，步入新生活，甚至克服对某事的愤怒。
Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: In fact, I was thinking throughout today's conversation, I couldn't help but think that perhaps the two most dangerous things to the creative process, to really doing the important work, are the many, many things that exist in the world now that basically sell us the opportunity, for free, to be angry, or to numb out.
安德鲁·休伯曼：事实上，在今天的谈话中，我一直在思考，我不禁想到，对于创作过程、真正做重要的工作来说，最危险的两件事可能是现在世界上存在的许多很多事情，它们基本上向我们出售机会，免费、愤怒或麻木。
Steven Pressfield: Mm, mm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯，嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I mean, again, if people want to drink a little bit, I'm not going to disparage that.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我的意思是，如果人们想喝一点，我不会贬低这一点。
I've done an episode on alcohol.
我拍过一集关于酒精的节目。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: It's not good for you, but some people can have a couple drinks a week or whatever.
Andrew Huberman：这对你不好，但有些人可以每周喝几杯或其他什么。
Okay, not judging there.
好吧，不在那里判断。
But things like alcohol, like certain forms of social media.
但像酒精这样的东西，就像某些形式的社交媒体一样。
And I say certain forms, because I do think social media can be informative and educational in the right context, and in the right amount.
我之所以说某些形式，是因为我确实认为社交媒体可以在适当的背景下以适当的数量提供信息和教育性。
Andrew Huberman: Certain forms of media more generally, the news, right?
安德鲁·休伯曼：更一般地说，某些形式的媒体，即新闻，对吧？
Any number of highly processed, highly palatable foods, which are not delicious, but they allow us to kind of numb out, numb out our senses, and just kind of mindlessly eat, and on and on.
许多经过高度加工、高度可口的食物，虽然并不美味，但它们让我们麻木，麻木我们的感官，然后盲目地吃，等等。
Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I feel like anger and numbing out are how the world is trying to pull us away.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我觉得愤怒和麻木是世界试图将我们拉开的方式。
Steven Pressfield: Mm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And someone gets paid for that.
Andrew Huberman：有人因此获得报酬。
We think we get it for free, but they get paid for that very well.
我们认为我们可以免费获得它，但他们却为此获得了丰厚的报酬。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: We give our time, our soul, according to what you're saying.
Andrew Huberman：根据你所说的，我们付出了我们的时间、我们的灵魂。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And then more close to us, within our inner circle, people that genuinely care about us are, from what you're saying, kind of in their own psychological entanglements, and they really care, they want us safe, they want to keep us where they know they can find us.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：然后，离我们更近，在我们的核心圈子里，真正关心我们的人，从你所说的来看，有点在他们自己的心理纠葛中，他们真的关心我们，他们希望我们安全，他们想把我们留在他们知道可以找到我们的地方。
And as a consequence, it's really tough to even get to the process of resistance at this point.
因此，在这一点上甚至很难进入抵抗过程。
It's all around us.
它就在我们周围。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: It's all around us.
Andrew Huberman：它就在我们周围。
Steven Pressfield: You hit the nail on a lot of heads there.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：你说中了很多人的要害。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: So, do you think the world is set up now in ways that it's more difficult to get to that chair and to meet the inner resistance?
安德鲁·休伯曼：那么，你认为现在的世界格局是否使得坐上那把椅子并应对内心的阻力变得更加困难？
I phrased it poorly before.
我之前表达得不好。
There's resistance all around us, there's in the things that are being sold to us, quote unquote, "for free."
我们周围都存在着阻力，存在于出售给我们的东西中，原话是“免费”。
Steven Pressfield: Mm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: The cost is immense.
安德鲁·休伯曼：成本是巨大的。
Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: It's true, you're not putting a coin in a slot and pulling a lever, but it's your time, it's your soul, it's your essence, it's your life.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，你不是把一枚硬币放入投币口并拉动杠杆，但这是你的时间，这是你的灵魂，这是你的本质，这是你的生活。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And then it's close to us with family members and friends, and significant others sometimes.
Andrew Huberman：然后它就离我们很近，与家人和朋友，有时还有其他重要的人。
Dogs are immune from this.
狗对此免疫。
Cats are immune.
猫有免疫力。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: They want us to do the real work because they'll be right next to us.
Andrew Huberman：他们希望我们做真正的工作，因为他们就在我们旁边。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And then with all that, then we sit down, and then the resistance comes up from right up in the middle.
安德鲁·休伯曼：然后，我们坐下来，然后阻力从中间出现。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: It's like this is a minefield.
Andrew Huberman：这就像一个雷区。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
It is.
这是。
I agree with you completely.
我完全同意你的观点。
I don't think it's ever been harder.
我认为这从未如此困难。
I always said that if you want to make a billion dollars, come up with some kind of product that feeds into people's natural resistance, like potato chips, or social media, or something.
我总是说，如果你想赚十亿美元，就想出某种能够激发人们自然抵抗力的产品，比如薯片、社交媒体等等。
And they did come up with a product and it's called the internet, you know?
他们确实想出了一个产品，它叫做互联网，你知道吗？
It's called social media.
这就是所谓的社交媒体。
And you're right.
你是对的。
Steven Pressfield: People make a lot of money off of that because they...
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：人们从中赚了很多钱，因为他们......
And I don't think they're even aware of what they're doing, or aware of what they're tapping into, but they're just allowing people, you or me, who has a calling that we know we should be doing, they're allowing us to not do it, to be drawn over here for whatever reason.
我认为他们甚至不知道他们在做什么，或者知道他们正在利用什么，但他们只是允许人们，你或我，我们知道我们应该做的使命，他们允许我们不这样做，无论出于何种原因被吸引到这里。
And I think a lot of the anger and polarization in politics is about that today, you know?
我认为当今政治上的许多愤怒和两极分化都是与此相关的，你知道吗？
Because people can't face to sit down and do whatever they were born to do.
因为人们无法坐下来做他们生来要做的事情。
Steven Pressfield: So, it's much easier to hate the other person over here, or get completely caught up in all that rabbit hole of all that sort of stuff, you know?
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：所以，讨厌这里的另一个人，或者完全陷入所有这类事情的兔子洞要容易得多，你知道吗？
Yeah.
是的。
To follow your calling is a really hard thing, you know?
听从你的召唤是一件非常困难的事情，你知道吗？
We were born to be, by evolution, to be tribal creatures, through all this evolution.
通过进化，我们生来就是部落生物，经历了所有这些进化。
Steven Pressfield: And the one thing that the tribe hates the most is somebody that goes his own way or her own way, right?
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：部落最讨厌的一件事就是有人走自己的路或她自己的路，对吧？
Follows their own thing and doesn't hue to what the tribe wants them to do.
遵循自己的意愿，不顺从部落希望他们做的事情。
So, for us to do that as individuals is a b****, you know?
所以，对于我们个人来说这样做是很糟糕的，你知道吗？
And it's usually like when you said you sort of exploded out of you when you got...
通常就像你说当你...
You have to almost reach a breaking point, you know?
你必须几乎达到临界点，你知道吗？
Steven Pressfield: Almost hit bottom in some kind of a sense before it just kind of explodes out of you, because we'll all resist that so much.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德（Steven Pressfield）：在某种意义上几乎触底，然后才从你身上爆发出来，因为我们都会强烈抵制这一点。
It's so scary.
太可怕了。
Andrew Huberman: It's so interesting.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这太有趣了。
I think it was in high school that I first realized how silly humans are, and it was the following.
我想我是在高中的时候第一次意识到人类有多么愚蠢，事情就是这样的。
At the time I was into skateboarding.
那时我迷上了滑板。
Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Skateboarding has gone through various evolutions of being popular, now it's in the Olympics, of being unpopular, of being profitable.
Andrew Huberman：滑板运动经历了流行、现在进入奥运会、不受欢迎、盈利的各种演变。
When I got into it, it was really unpopular.
当我接触到它的时候，它真的很不受欢迎。
It had gone through two big waves.
经历了两次大浪。
There was the kind of "Dogtown and Z-Boys" wave, discovering backyard pools, this kind of thing that the surfers did.
有一种“Dogtown and Z-Boys”浪潮，发现后院游泳池，冲浪者所做的这种事情。
Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Then there was a second wave, for those that care, this was like the classic Bones Brigade wave.
安德鲁·休伯曼：然后是第二波，对于那些关心的人来说，这就像经典的骨头旅波。
There were only two or three big companies.
大公司只有两三个。
Tony Hawk was early in this because he was young.
托尼·霍克（Tony Hawk）很早就涉足这一领域，因为他很年轻。
Andrew Huberman: His dad, Frank Hawk, ran the National Skateboard Association.
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：他的父亲弗兰克·霍克（Frank Hawk）经营着国家滑板协会。
And then it disappeared.
然后它就消失了。
Just kind of kids that were into soccer, they were into other sports, skateboarding wasn't a big thing.
只是一些喜欢足球的孩子，他们喜欢其他运动，滑板并不是什么大事。
It was small.
它很小。
And then there was this really kind of weird trend in the early 90s where skateboarders started wearing really baggy clothes.
然后在 90 年代初出现了一种非常奇怪的趋势，滑板爱好者开始穿着非常宽松的衣服。
No one wore really baggy clothes.
没有人穿真正宽松的衣服。
Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And I'll never forget, because I was part of that community, we wore these, what now wouldn't even be considered baggy shorts.
Andrew Huberman：我永远不会忘记，因为我是那个社区的一员，我们穿着这些，现在甚至不会被认为是宽松的短裤。
So, we're not talking about, like, a deep sag on the shorts, but it was like baggy shorts.
所以，我们不是在谈论短裤上的深度下垂，而是说它就像宽松的短裤。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And I'll never forget the amount of teasing and ridicule that we received.
Andrew Huberman：我永远不会忘记我们收到的多少嘲笑和嘲笑。
People were like, "Pull up your pants."
人们就像是，“拉起你的裤子。”
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: By the athletes, by the water polo athletes, the jocks, everything.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：运动员、水球运动员、运动员，一切。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: But not just at school, but elsewhere.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但不仅仅是在学校，在其他地方也是如此。
Leave for the summer, come back, and over that summer, someone in the world of rock and roll and in hip hop had kind of picked this up from skateboarding culture, and baggy pants and shorts hit the mainstream.
离开夏天，回来，那个夏天，摇滚乐和嘻哈界的某个人从滑板文化中学到了这一点，宽松的裤子和短裤成为了主流。
Steven Pressfield: Oh, I never knew that.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：哦，我从来不知道这一点。
Andrew Huberman: And the next year, everyone was into that.
Andrew Huberman：第二年，每个人都对此感兴趣。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: And that's when the bell went off.
Andrew Huberman：就在那时，铃声响起。
I was like, "They don't actually know what they like." This is just the essence of peer pressure.
我当时想，“他们实际上不知道自己喜欢什么。”这就是同伴压力的本质。
They have no concept of what they actually like.
他们不知道自己真正喜欢什么。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And I think that was a big one for me.
Andrew Huberman：我认为这对我来说是一件大事。
Well, first of all, I thought, "They're hypocrites."
嗯，首先，我想，“他们是伪君子。”
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Then I thought, "They're idiots." And then I realized they're none of those things.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：然后我想，“他们都是白痴。”然后我意识到它们都不是这些东西。
It's that for most people, what they like is sold to them.
对于大多数人来说，他们喜欢的东西就卖给了他们。
Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And they're tracking someone else.
Andrew Huberman：他们正在追踪其他人。
And so, throughout my life, I've had mentors that didn't know me.
因此，在我的一生中，我的导师并不了解我。
I literally have a list of different names, some of these people are alive, some of them dead.
我确实有一份不同名字的清单，其中一些人还活着，一些人已经死了。
Amazingly, some of them are now my close friends.
令人惊讶的是，他们中的一些人现在是我的亲密朋友。
Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I embarrass them all the time by telling them that they're on this list.
Andrew Huberman：我告诉他们他们在这个名单上，这让他们一直感到尴尬。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: But I think that the concept of mentorship is so much different than the concept of looking to the other members of our species more broadly for what is cool, what's worth pursuing.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但我认为指导的概念与更广泛地向我们物种的其他成员寻找酷的、值得追求的东西的概念有很大不同。
Steven Pressfield: Mm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: How valuable, for you, have mentors been?
Andrew Huberman：导师对你来说有多有价值？
I know you've been a mentor to many people.
我知道您是很多人的导师。
By the way, you're on the list.
顺便说一句，你在名单上。
Just to embarrass you.
就是为了让你难堪。
I can show you that list.
我可以给你看那个清单。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: From the late 90s, 2000s transition, how important are mentors, and how do we differentiate mentors from the voice in our own head?
Andrew Huberman：从 90 年代末到 2000 年代的转变，导师有多重要，我们如何区分导师和我们自己头脑中的声音？
How important is it to be self-guided versus encouraged and guided by these mentor voices?
自我引导与接受导师声音的鼓励和指导有多重要？
Steven Pressfield: Well, that's a great question.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯，这是一个很好的问题。
Andrew Huberman: Because I believe that the general public is the absolute wrong signal.
Andrew Huberman：因为我相信公众发出的信号绝对是错误的。
I think that signal takes you off the metaphorical cliff.
我认为这个信号可以带你脱离隐喻的悬崖。
Steven Pressfield: I agree with you there.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：我同意你的观点。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Mentors have been really important to me, very important.
导师对我来说真的很重要，非常重要。
In fact, I wrote a memoir called "Govt Cheese." I don't know if you've heard about this one at all.
事实上，我写了一本名为《政府奶酪》的回忆录。我不知道你是否听说过这个。
But the chapters are named after the various mentors that I've had, many of them.
但这些章节是以我所拥有的各种导师的名字命名的，其中有很多。
And a lot of them are not in the writing world at all.
而且他们中的很多人根本不属于写作世界。
Like my friend, Paul, he was in the writing world.
和我的朋友保罗一样，他也身处写作世界。
Steven Pressfield: But I had a boss at a trucking company that I worked for that was like a real mentor to me.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：但我在一家货运公司工作时有一位老板，他对我来说就像一位真正的导师。
I picked fruit in Washington State, as a migratory worker, for a while, and I had a mentor there.
我曾作为一名移民工人在华盛顿州采摘过水果，在那里我有一位导师。
I never even knew his last name.
我什至不知道他的姓氏。
He was a fellow fruit picker, a former Marine, who was at the Chosin Reservoir in Korea.
他是一名水果采摘工，曾是一名海军陆战队员，在韩国长津水库工作。
I'm sure nobody listening to this knows what that is, but it was like an amazing horror show of heroism.
我确信没有人听过这首歌知道那是什么，但这就像一场令人惊叹的英雄主义恐怖表演。
Anyway.
反正。
Andrew Huberman: They'll look it up.
Andrew Huberman：他们会查的。
Andrew Huberman: What was it about those two mentors that you can maybe summarize that you extracted?
Andrew Huberman：您可以总结一下这两位导师的哪些特点？
Was it a work ethic?
这是一种职业道德吗？
Was it a style of being?
这是一种存在风格吗？
Steven Pressfield: It was a work ethic in both cases.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：这两种情况都是一种职业道德。
In the one...
在一...
Again, I'll sort of get a little into the weeds here a little bit.
再说一次，我会稍微介绍一下这里的杂草。
Andrew Huberman: Please, please.
安德鲁·休伯曼： 拜托，拜托。
Steven Pressfield: I had gone to a tractor-trailer driving school, and I got hired to work for this company in North Carolina, and I was a beginner.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德（Steven Pressfield）：我去了一所拖拉机拖车驾驶学校，然后受聘为北卡罗来纳州的这家公司工作，我是一个初学者。
And I really f***** up big time one time.
有一次我真的搞砸了。
I dropped a trailer with like 300,000 dollars' worth of industrial equipment in it.
我扔下一辆拖车，里面装着价值约 30 万美元的工业设备。
Steven Pressfield: And my boss, his name was Hugh Reeves, took me out to this hot dog place called Amos "N" Andy's in Durham, North Carolina, and he sat me down and he said, "Son, I don't know what internal drama you're going through.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：我的老板，他的名字叫休·里夫斯，带我去了北卡罗来纳州达勒姆的一家名为 Amos“N”Andy's 的热狗店，他让我坐下来，他说：“儿子，我不知道你正在经历什么内心的戏剧。
I know you're going through something.
我知道你正在经历一些事情。
But let me tell you this.
但让我告诉你这一点。
While you're working for me, you're a professional, and your job is to deliver a load.
当你为我工作时，你是一名专业人士，你的工作就是运送货物。
Steven Pressfield: And I don't care what happens between A and B; you got to do that." And I was like, "Well," you know.
Steven Pressfield：我不在乎 A 和 B 之间发生什么；我不在乎。你必须这么做。”我当时想，“好吧，”你知道。
And I knew he was just absolutely right, and I thought, "Man, I got to get my s*** together here," you know?
我知道他是绝对正确的，我想，“伙计，我必须在这里团结起来，”你知道吗？
And so, that obviously stuck with me forever.
所以，这显然永远困扰着我。
Steven Pressfield: And my friend, John, from Seattle in the fruit-picking world was...
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：我的朋友约翰来自西雅图，从事水果采摘工作……
Again, I'm going to do a longer story than probably needs to be here.
再说一次，我要讲的故事比这里可能需要的还要长。
In the fruit-picking world, at least when I was doing this, most of the work was done by fruit tramps, by guys that were riding the rails from the old days.
在水果采摘的世界里，至少在我做这件事的时候，大部分工作都是由水果流浪汉、那些从前乘坐铁轨的家伙完成的。
And one of the phrases that they used was "pulling the pin." Have you ever heard this thing?
他们使用的短语之一是“拉动别针”。你听说过这件事吗？
And what "pulling the pin" meant was quitting too soon.
而“拔掉别针”的意思就是放弃得太早。
Steven Pressfield: "Pulling the pin" came from railroad, if you wanted to uncouple one car from another, the trainman would pull a heavy steel pin, and the cars would uncouple.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：“拉销”一词来自铁路，如果你想将一节车厢与另一节车厢脱开，列车员会拉动一根沉重的钢销，车厢就会脱开。
So, you would wake up one day in a bunkhouse at six weeks into a season and so-and-so would be gone and you'd say, "Oh, what happened to Andrew?" And they'd say, "Oh, he pulled the pin." So, at the time that I was there, I was trying for the first time to finish a book.
所以，当你在一个赛季开始六周后的某一天在一间工棚里醒来时，某某就会离开，你会说，“哦，安德鲁出了什么事？”他们会说：“哦，他拔掉了别针。”所以，当我在那里的时候，我第一次尝试完成一本书。
And I'd run out of money and this is why I was working, to get the money.
我的钱快用光了，这就是我工作的原因，为了赚钱。
Steven Pressfield: And I realized that in my life, I had pulled the pin on everything that I'd ever done.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：我意识到，在我的一生中，我所做的一切都已经结束了。
On my marriage, on this, that, the other.
关于我的婚姻，关于这个，那个，另一个。
And this friend of mine, John, I wanted to quit before the season ended, you know?
我的朋友约翰，我想在赛季结束前退出，你知道吗？
And he would not let me do it, you know?
他不会让我这么做，你知道吗？
He sort of just took me under his wing.
他只是把我保护在他的羽翼之下。
And so, that was another thing which is drilled into my head in the sense of, "Am I going to finish this project?
所以，这是另一件事深深地印在我的脑海里，“我要完成这个项目吗？
F*** yeah.
妈的，是的。
I'd rather die; I will die before I'll give up on this project." And it was all because of him.
我宁愿死；在我放弃这个项目之前，我会死。”而这一切都是因为他。
Steven Pressfield: So, those are two mentors that weren't writing mentors, but that I used their...
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：所以，这两位导师并没有写导师，但我使用了他们的……
Those lessons stuck with me forever.
这些教训永远困扰着我。
And I will say one thing, too, for anybody that's struggling with finishing anything.
我还要对那些正在努力完成任何事情的人说一件事。
Once I did finish that book, which I did, I've never had any trouble finishing anything ever again.
一旦我完成了那本书，我就完成了，我再也没有遇到过任何完成任何事情的麻烦。
Andrew Huberman: Hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Whereas it was my bête noire for years.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：尽管多年来它一直是我最讨厌的事情。
I would fumble on the goal line, you know?
我会在球门线上摸索，你知道吗？
Resistance, form of resistance.
抵抗，抵抗的形式。
Andrew Huberman: I love that those two guys are now alive and present in 2025.
Andrew Huberman：我很高兴这两个人现在还活着并且在 2025 年出现。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: They may still be alive, in general.
Andrew Huberman：一般来说，他们可能还活着。
But perfectionism.
但完美主义。
You talked about it as the enemy.
你把它当作敌人来谈论。
I learned two very disparate schools of thought in research science.
我在研究科学研究中学到了两种截然不同的思想流派。
One was no one study can answer everything.
其一是没有一项研究能够回答所有问题。
So, when you get to the point where you have a clear answer what the data mean, you write it up, you ship it out, you publish.
因此，当您对数据的含义有了明确的答案时，您就可以将其写下来，发送出去，然后发布。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And I feel very fortunate that I worked for people that encourage that, because many people get caught up in the idea that every paper has to be a landmark paper.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我感到非常幸运，我为那些鼓励这一点的人工作，因为很多人都陷入这样的想法，即每一篇论文都必须是具有里程碑意义的论文。
Actually, that's one of the major causes of scientific fraud, by the way.
事实上，顺便说一句，这是科学造假的主要原因之一。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: When people feel that their papers have to be published in the top-tier journals.
Andrew Huberman：当人们觉得他们的论文必须在顶级期刊上发表时。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: It's probably the strongest driver of scientific fraud.
Andrew Huberman：这可能是科学欺诈的最强大驱动力。
Steven Pressfield: Makes sense.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：有道理。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: There are probably some bad apples that come in and are seeking ways that they can build narratives to get prizes and stuff.
安德鲁·休伯曼：可能有一些坏苹果进来，并正在寻找可以建立叙事来获得奖品和东西的方法。
But I think they're exceedingly rare.
但我认为它们非常罕见。
Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Mm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Those people are driven to other fields where there's more money involved, more fame involved.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这些人被驱赶到其他涉及更多金钱、更多名誉的领域。
Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Mm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: But in science, a lot of bad stuff comes from people feeling that they have to have a landmark paper.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但在科学领域，很多不好的事情都来自于人们觉得他们必须有一篇具有里程碑意义的论文。
And I was taught early on, some papers end up in solid journals, and some end up in spectacular journals, and some projects go nowhere.
我很早就被告知，有些论文最终会发表在可靠的期刊上，有些论文最终会发表在出色的期刊上，而有些项目却一事无成。
That's just the reality.
这就是现实。
Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: The key is to figure out which one is which but finish things.
Andrew Huberman：关键是要弄清楚哪个是哪个，但要完成事情。
Steven Pressfield: Mm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: At the other end of the spectrum is this idea that if you are able to make something better, you should.
Andrew Huberman：另一方面，如果你能够做得更好，你就应该做得更好。
And this is the reason I delayed my book release for a year.
这就是我推迟一年出版新书的原因。
I felt like I could make it better.
我觉得我可以做得更好。
There was new data, I wanted to add illustrations, but at some point it's got to ship.
有新数据，我想添加插图，但在某个时候它必须发货。
So, I think we can all agree that perfectionism is not great, because it limits our ability to complete things and ship things off.
所以，我想我们都同意完美主义并不好，因为它限制了我们完成事情和交付事情的能力。
Andrew Huberman: Sometimes even our ability to do the work in the first place.
Andrew Huberman：有时甚至是我们首先完成工作的能力。
But at some level, if we can make something better, we probably should.
但在某种程度上，如果我们能做得更好，我们可能应该这样做。
That's also part and parcel with meeting resistance and pushing through it.
这也是迎接阻力并克服阻力的重要组成部分。
So, how do you balance those two?
那么，如何平衡这两者呢？
They're in a strong push-pull for me.
他们对我有很强的推拉力。
Steven Pressfield: I think that that's another great question.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：我认为这是另一个很好的问题。
I mean, it's so easy, as a writer, to noodle all day with one paragraph, you know?
我的意思是，作为一名作家，整天写一个段落是很容易的，你知道吗？
And, of course, that's obviously, resistance is watching and laughing at you, you know?
当然，很明显，阻力正在看着你并嘲笑你，你知道吗？
"Oh man, look at this poor idiot.
“噢，伙计，看看这个可怜的白痴。
I've gotten him to completely blow the day on this one thing." So, that sort of perfectionism is a form of resistance and really has to be avoided at all costs.
我已经让他在这一件事上彻底搞砸了。”因此，这种完美主义是一种抵制形式，必须不惜一切代价避免。
Steven Pressfield: On the other hand, you do want to produce something that's really good, you know?
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：另一方面，你确实想制作一些真正好的东西，你知道吗？
But like Seth Godin says, "Ship it," right?
但就像 Seth Godin 说的，“发货”，对吗？
When it's ready to go, there comes a time when you know, "I'm just noodling with this because I'm afraid of the response.
当一切准备就绪时，你会知道，“我只是在犹豫这个，因为我害怕回应。
Is this going to fail?
这会失败吗？
Is it going to fizzle?
它会失败吗？
Is it going to crash and burn?
它会崩溃并燃烧吗？
So, I don't want to ship it out right now." I had a friend, I tell this story, who had written this deeply personal novel about salvaging a ship.
所以，我现在不想把它寄出去。”我有一个朋友，我讲这个故事，他写了这本关于打捞一艘船的深刻个人小说。
He had been in the Merchant Marine and, I mean, what a great metaphor that was.
他曾在商船队服役，我的意思是，这是一个多么伟大的比喻啊。
Steven Pressfield: And I read it, it was in its mailing box back in the days when you typed it out on a typewriter, ready to go to his agent, and he couldn't make himself send it off, you know?
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：我读到了它，当你用打字机打出它，准备交给他的经纪人时，它就在邮件箱里，而他无法让自己把它寄出去，你知道吗？
And the sad part of the story is my friend died.
故事的悲伤部分是我的朋友去世了。
And, so that was...
而且，原来如此……
I don't know whether that was perfectionism or just fear of being judged in the real world.
我不知道这是完美主义还是只是害怕在现实世界中受到评判。
So, it's a real vice, perfectionism, and to be guarded against at all costs, I think.
所以，我认为这是一种真正的恶习，完美主义，应该不惜一切代价加以防范。
But when a thing is ready to go, let it go.
但当一件事准备好进行时，就放手吧。
Andrew Huberman: I'd like to talk about death.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我想谈谈死亡。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: You know, I've...
安德鲁·休伯曼：你知道，我...
Steven Pressfield: Me too.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：我也是。
Andrew Huberman: Great.
安德鲁·休伯曼： 太好了。
I've listened to and read Steve Jobs' biography.
我听过并读过史蒂夫·乔布斯的传记。
Steven Pressfield: Mm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I think it's spectacular.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为这很壮观。
I had a particular interest in it because...
我对它特别感兴趣，因为...
Steven Pressfield: What's the title?
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：标题是什么？
Because I've never read it.
因为我从来没有读过。
Andrew Huberman: I think it's "Steve Jobs" by Walter Isaacson.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为这是沃尔特·艾萨克森的《史蒂夫·乔布斯》。
Steven Pressfield: Oh, I see.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：哦，我明白了。
Oh, I see.
我懂了。
It wasn't by Steve Jobs.
这不是史蒂夫·乔布斯写的。
Andrew Huberman: It's a phenomenal bio.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这是一部非凡的传记。
Andrew Huberman: No, it's not an autobiography.
安德鲁·休伯曼：不，这不是自传。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: Although, there was communication with him in the process of writing the book.
Andrew Huberman：虽然，在写这本书的过程中与他有过交流。
Steven Pressfield: Ah, okay.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊，好吧。
Andrew Huberman: I think that's one of the kind of agreements for Isaacson is you have to be willing to talk to him and he can talk to people in one's life, and it's spectacular.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：我认为这对艾萨克森来说是一种协议，你必须愿意与他交谈，他可以与一个人生活中的人交谈，这是壮观的。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And one of the reasons I was so interested in it is that the personal computer came out during my childhood.
Andrew Huberman：我对此如此感兴趣的原因之一是个人电脑在我童年时期就出现了。
Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Steve lived in our area.
安德鲁·休伯曼：史蒂夫住在我们地区。
We'd see him around downtown Palo Alto.
我们会在帕洛阿尔托市中心附近见到他。
He'd come into the sports shop where I worked to get rollerblade wheels.
他来到我工作的体育用品商店购买直排轮。
And I was a skateboarder, but we had to sell the rollerblades.
我是一名滑板运动员，但我们必须出售溜冰鞋。
Steven Pressfield: Ah, uh-huh.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊，嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: It was just part of the job and wagons and things.
Andrew Huberman：这只是工作和马车之类的事情的一部分。
In any case, he from a very early point apparently understood his own mortality, and apparently that was a strong driver for his intense drive to create things, to envision things.
无论如何，他从很早的时候起就显然明白自己的死亡，这显然是他强烈地创造事物、想象事物的强大动力。
In some sense people say it's part of the reason why he didn't pay much attention to kind of typical conventions, and he was able to evolve the world and create these incredible products.
从某种意义上说，人们说这是他没有过多关注典型惯例的部分原因，而他却能够发展世界并创造出这些令人难以置信的产品。
Steven Pressfield: Mm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Mm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Devices, I mean, portals.
Andrew Huberman：设备，我的意思是门户。
They're really portals of communication and creativity.
它们确实是沟通和创造力的门户。
Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And having a strong sense of one's mortality seems very useful in that respect.
安德鲁·休伯曼：在这方面，对自己的死亡有强烈的认识似乎非常有用。
The other end of the spectrum, I have a theory, which is that all forms of addiction are basically an attempt to try and avoid the reality that we're going to die, to just forget that for moments.
另一方面，我有一个理论，即所有形式的成瘾基本上都是试图避免我们将要死亡的现实，只是暂时忘记这一点。
Steven Pressfield: Mm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Shorter or longer moments.
Andrew Huberman：更短或更长的时刻。
Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And in some sense, the pursuit of flow states and creative works are an attempt to kind of either forget about that, or some people want to immortalize themselves.
安德鲁·休伯曼：从某种意义上说，对心流状态和创造性作品的追求是一种尝试，要么忘记这一点，要么有些人想要永垂不朽。
But I think knowing that one is going to die is an incredible driver.
但我认为知道一个人会死是一个令人难以置信的驱动力。
I have always had a lot of energy, but it was only recently on the threshold of my 50th birthday coming up that I realized, "Oh, I'm probably at about the halfway mark." You know, realistically.
我一直精力充沛，但直到最近临近 50 岁生日时，我才意识到，“哦，我可能已经过了一半了。”你知道，现实地说。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah, yeah.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：是的，是的。
Andrew Huberman: I'm a biologist.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我是一名生物学家。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I mean, I think genetic potential and human longevity is probably about 120, and with certain practices, maybe you can get out past where one is fated to die by maybe five, maybe ten, maybe twenty years.
Andrew Huberman：我的意思是，我认为遗传潜力和人类寿命可能约为 120 岁，通过某些实践，也许你可以摆脱一个人注定会死亡的命运，也许五年，也许十年，也许二十年。
And maybe new technologies will come along that will expand that number.
也许新技术的出现会扩大这个数字。
But I figure I'm at probably about the halfway mark.
但我想我大概已经完成了一半。
So, it's kind of nice to have like, an "Oh, s***" moment, because you stop wasting time.
所以，有一个“哦，糟糕”的时刻真是太好了，因为你不再浪费时间了。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Like anyone else, I've wasted time.
Andrew Huberman：和其他人一样，我浪费了时间。
So, how present is your sense of death eventually coming?
那么，你对死亡最终到来的感觉有多强烈呢？
Hopefully a long time from now.
希望从现在起很长一段时间。
Again, you're in spectacularly good health, and so that's important.
再说一次，你的健康状况非常好，所以这很重要。
But how present is the reaper in your process?
但收割者在你的过程中的存在程度如何？
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: And do you think having a real sense that the reaper's coming is useful?
安德鲁·休伯曼：你认为真正感觉到收割者的到来有用吗？
Steven Pressfield: Yeah, definitely.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：是的，当然。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: I was having breakfast in New York a couple of years ago with a friend of mine who's exactly my age, you know?
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：几年前，我和一个和我年龄相仿的朋友在纽约吃早餐，你知道吗？
And I asked him, I said, "Nick, how often do you think about your own mortality?" And he said, "Every f****** minute of every f****** day," you know?
我问他，我说，“尼克，你多久考虑一下自己的死亡？”他说，“每个该死的一天的每一分钟，”你知道吗？
Andrew Huberman: Well, maybe that's a little bit excessive, because it could become paralyzing too.
Andrew Huberman：嗯，也许这有点过分了，因为它也可能会变得瘫痪。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Right?
安德鲁·休伯曼：对吗？
Steven Pressfield: So, I don't know if I go that far, but I'm definitely aware of it.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：所以，我不知道我是否走那么远，但我肯定意识到了这一点。
Robert Redford died two days ago, right, in his sleep, you know?
罗伯特·雷德福两天前去世了，对吧，在睡梦中，你知道吗？
To me, he was like an immortal guy that was going to live forever.
对我来说，他就像一个永生不死的人。
On the other hand, I have another friend who actually died a couple of years ago.
另一方面，我有另一个朋友几年前就去世了。
It was one of my bosses in advertising named Phil Slott, great, smart guy.
这是我的广告业老板之一，名叫菲尔·斯洛特（Phil Slott），他是一个伟大而聪明的人。
And he said one time to me that people tell you that life is short, but really life is long.
有一次他对我说，人们告诉你生命很短，但实际上生命很长。
And like thinking about you, Andrew, that you're 50 years old, you've got another 50 years ahead of you, you know?
就像想想你，安德鲁，你已经 50 岁了，你还有另外 50 年的生活，你知道吗？
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, God willing.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，上帝愿意。
Steven Pressfield: So that one has to think it can be also a form of resistance.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：所以人们必须认为这也可以是一种抵抗形式。
Like for me at my age to think, "Well, I'm only going to be around a few more years, I might as well f*** off, or I don't have to work that hard." You know?
就像我这个年纪的人会想：“好吧，我只能再活几年了，我还不如滚蛋，不然我就不用那么努力了。”你知道？
But no, because I might be around for another 20 years or more.
但不会，因为我可能还会再活 20 年或更长时间。
That's a career.
那是一份职业。
I could write 15 books.
我可以写 15 本书。
I could make who knows what.
我可以做谁知道什么。
Steven Pressfield: Certainly, I have to...
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：当然，我必须……
which is part of why I go to the gym.
这是我去健身房的部分原因。
I don't want to start thinking that I'm on the way down or I haven't got, you know?
我不想开始认为我正在走下坡路或者我还没有走下去，你知道吗？
Life is long.
人生很长。
It's longer than we think.
它比我们想象的要长。
And we have, in the sense of it's opportunity to do stuff, but it's also an obligation to do stuff, to keep evolving, so on and so forth.
从某种意义上说，我们有做事的机会，但也是做事、不断发展的义务，等等。
Steven Pressfield: On another sort of side, I don't know if this was...
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：从另一方面来说，我不知道这是否是......
Maybe this will be confessional for me.
也许这对我来说是一种忏悔。
I know when I was a kid, our family was sort of like the black sheep of our bigger family.
我知道当我还是个孩子的时候，我们的家庭有点像我们大家庭中的害群之马。
Like everybody, all of my uncles and stuff were all really successful, and my dad was kind of struggling, you know?
像每个人一样，我所有的叔叔和其他人都非常成功，而我的父亲则有点挣扎，你知道吗？
Steven Pressfield: And so, it became a thing in my mind where I said, and this just looking ahead for how long you're going to live.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：所以，我说的这件事成了我脑海中的一件事，这只是展望你能活多久。
I said, "I'm going to show these motherf****** that our family is not what they think they are," you know?
我说，“我要让这些混蛋知道我们的家庭不是他们想象的那样，”你知道吗？
And so, that's been a real driver for me, more so than any idea of mortality.
所以，这对我来说是一个真正的驱动力，比任何死亡的想法都更重要。
Even over those long years where I was getting nowhere, to sort of honor my dad, that I was going to hang in there and do something.
即使在那些我一事无成的漫长岁月里，为了纪念我的父亲，我还是会坚持下去，做点什么。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Yeah, I think that's a great opportunity for us to talk about another kind of resistance, which is actually very adaptive and can propel us forward, which is having some friction with someone or something.
是的，我认为这对我们来说是一个很好的机会来讨论另一种阻力，它实际上具有很强的适应性，可以推动我们前进，即与某人或某事发生一些摩擦。
Now, this is a little politically incorrect, but in one's mind, to be able to drive yourself harder.
现在，这在政治上有点不正确，但在一个人看来，能够让自己更加努力。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And I think this can take on toxic forms, but I think it can also be very beneficial.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为这可能会产生有毒的形式，但我认为它也可能非常有益。
There's this great moment in one of those "Dark Knight" movies where the Joker has the opportunity to kill Batman, and he says something like, "Just kill me."
在其中一部《黑暗骑士》电影中，有一个伟大的时刻，小丑有机会杀死蝙蝠侠，他说了类似“杀了我吧”之类的话。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And the Joker says, "Kill you?" He's like, "I don't want to kill you.
安德鲁·休伯曼：小丑说，“杀了你？”他就像是，“我不想杀你。
You complete me."
你让我变得完整。”
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: It's this moment where the Joker doesn't exist without Batman, and vice versa.
安德鲁·休伯曼：在这一刻，没有蝙蝠侠就没有小丑，反之亦然。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Right?
安德鲁·休伯曼：对吗？
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: That having somebody or something that you're challenging yourself, that you're trying to prove yourself to, sometimes to yourself, can be very beneficial.
安德鲁·休伯曼：拥有一些你挑战自己的人或事，你试图证明自己，有时是为了自己，可能是非常有益的。
And at different times in my career, certainly not now, and I kind of miss it a little bit, to be honest.
在我职业生涯的不同时期，当然不是现在，说实话，我有点怀念它。
But at various times in my different careers, of pursuits, I should say, being in competition can be an incredible driver.
但在我职业生涯的不同时期，我应该说，参与竞争可以成为令人难以置信的驱动力。
Steven Pressfield: Mm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: And I could go into a whole story here, but it doesn't matter.
Andrew Huberman：我可以在这里讲述整个故事，但这并不重要。
I think that it's kind of evident what we're talking about, that having someone that you're not going to let get the best of you, that you know you can do better, can be very useful.
我认为我们正在谈论的事情很明显，拥有一个你不会让他超越你的人，你知道你可以做得更好，这可能非常有用。
It can also be toxic, as we pointed out.
正如我们指出的，它也可能有毒。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: I feel, having experienced that, and having won, by the way.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：我觉得，顺便说一句，我经历过这一点，并且赢得了胜利。
No, I'm just kidding.
不，我只是开玩笑。
I'm not kidding.
我不是在开玩笑。
But that the energy that it pulls on, here I'm going to put my physiologist neuroscience hat on, it's more of an adrenal, adrenaline-type drive than kind of orienting towards your love of craft.
但它所带来的能量，在这里我要戴上我的生理学家神经科学的帽子，它更多的是一种肾上腺、肾上腺素类型的驱动力，而不是一种面向你对工艺的热爱。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: I mean, it's meshed with that, right?
Andrew Huberman：我的意思是，它与此相关，对吧？
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Hopefully it's within a craft you love.
Andrew Huberman：希望它是在你喜欢的工艺范围内。
But to just be in sheer competition all the time can be depleting, and one has to be really careful with this stuff.
但一直处于纯粹的竞争中可能会让人精疲力竭，因此必须非常小心地对待这些事情。
So, obviously that got you propelled forward.
所以，显然这让你不断前进。
You're going to prove that your family...
你要证明你的家人...
Steven Pressfield: In an unconscious way.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：以一种无意识的方式。
Andrew Huberman: Mm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Steven Pressfield: It certainly was not...
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：这当然不是......
I'm only becoming aware of it now, you know?
我现在才意识到这一点，你知道吗？
Andrew Huberman: Oh, I see.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哦，我明白了。
So, at the time, you weren't aware of it?
那么，你当时并没有意识到这一点吗？
Steven Pressfield: I wasn't even aware of it.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：我什至没有意识到这一点。
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman: Oh, okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哦，好吧。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
I was very aware of this friction, because the guy and I had an outright rivalry.
我非常清楚这种摩擦，因为我和那家伙是彻头彻尾的竞争。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And it was a lot of fun, too.
Andrew Huberman：这也很有趣。
Actually, years later, we shared a coffee and reflected on how much great work we each got done in this process.
事实上，几年后，我们一起喝了一杯咖啡，并反思了我们每个人在这个过程中完成了多少伟大的工作。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Steven Pressfield: I mean, if you think about Larry Bird and Magic Johnson, how they kind of made each other, boom, boom, boom, and now they're the best of friends, which is great.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：我的意思是，如果你想想拉里·伯德和魔术师约翰逊，他们是如何让彼此成为彼此的，繁荣，繁荣，繁荣，现在他们是最好的朋友，这很棒。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, Steve Jobs and Bill Gates early on.
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：是的，史蒂夫·乔布斯（Steve Jobs）和比尔·盖茨（Bill Gates）很早就这么做了。
Steven Pressfield: Ah, was that true?
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊，这是真的吗？
I didn't know that, yeah.
我不知道，是的。
Andrew Huberman: Oh, yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哦，是的。
There was a big competition, especially in the Bay Area where it was, and still remains kind of the seat of tech and computer science.
这是一场激烈的竞争，尤其是在湾区，那里曾经是并且仍然是科技和计算机科学的所在地。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: It was like, "Is it going to be Windows, or is it going to be the Mac operating system?"
Andrew Huberman：当时的感觉是，“是 Windows 还是 Mac 操作系统？”
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: And then when they joined forces later, that would've been like the Yankees and the Red Sox merging.
安德鲁·休伯曼：当他们后来联手时，就像洋基队和红袜队合并一样。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: It was a mind bend.
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：这是一个思维扭曲。
You're like, "This can't be happening."
你会说，“这不可能发生。”
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And all the nerds in the Bay Area are like, "Oh, yeah, well, this happened." Next thing you know, everybody's moved on.
安德鲁·休伯曼：湾区的所有书呆子都会说，“哦，是的，好吧，这件事发生了。”接下来你知道，每个人都继续前进。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: So, I think having resistance, with a desire to prove oneself, I think can be helpful, right?
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，我认为有抵抗力，渴望证明自己，我认为会有帮助，对吗？
Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
I think so too.
我也这么认为。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Steven Pressfield: My trainer at the gym, T.R.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：我在健身房的教练 T.R.
Goodman, he's trained a lot of professional athletes, particularly hockey players.
古德曼，他训练了很多职业运动员，尤其是曲棍球运动员。
And a lot of them, he says, because he got to know them very well, really had a chip on their shoulder about something or other, like, "My dad, I'm going to show my f****** dad that I can do this thing," you know?
他说，他们中的很多人，因为他非常了解他们，所以真的对某件事或其他事情感到不满，比如，“我的爸爸，我要向我的爸爸证明我可以做到这一点，”你知道吗？
And it would drive them, but like you say, it becomes kind of toxic.
它会驱使他们，但就像你说的，它变得有点有毒。
Steven Pressfield: At some point, you do have to sort of have that come-to-Jesus moment when you say, "Well, wait a minute.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：在某些时候，当你说：“好吧，等一下。
Let me get a handle on this, and maybe a little forgiveness here, or a little bit of empathy, a little of putting myself in the position of this person that I'm trying to show."
让我来处理这个问题，也许这里有一点宽恕，或者一点同理心，一点把自己放在我想要展示的这个人的位置上。”
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Greg Norman's dad, the golfer, there's so many people like that it does become toxic.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：格雷格·诺曼的父亲，高尔夫球手，有很多人喜欢它，它确实变得有毒。
But like you say, it can produce great success, because it drives people.
但就像你说的，它可以带来巨大的成功，因为它能驱动人们。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Michael Jordan was famously competitive about everything.
迈克尔·乔丹在所有事情上都具有竞争力，这是出了名的。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Everything.
安德鲁·休伯曼：一切。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Yeah, I feel very fortunate that these days I do things and I create out of just a love for what I do.
是的，我感到非常幸运，这些天我所做的事情和创造都是出于对我所做的事情的热爱。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: There's none of that.
安德鲁·休伯曼：没有这些。
I never think about another podcast, or what other people...
我从来没有想过另一个播客，或者其他人......
I think about none of that.
我不考虑这些。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Truly.
安德鲁·休伯曼：确实如此。
I would admit if I did.
如果我这样做的话我会承认。
Steven Pressfield: Good for you.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：对你有好处。
That's great, yeah.
那太好了，是的。
Andrew Huberman: But in the past, that wasn't the case.
Andrew Huberman：但在过去，情况并非如此。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: That wasn't the case, and I think that at times it brought out my best, and at times it brought out my best but it made the process much more painful.
安德鲁·休伯曼：事实并非如此，我认为有时它会发挥出我的最佳水平，有时它会发挥出我的最佳水平，但它使这个过程更加痛苦。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I think doing something for love of craft is really important.
Andrew Huberman：我认为出于对工艺的热爱而做一些事情非常重要。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
I couldn't agree more.
我完全同意。
Andrew Huberman: But as you've pointed out, that process can be painful, even though you love the craft.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但正如你所指出的，这个过程可能会很痛苦，即使你热爱这门手艺。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: It's a weird thing.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这是一件奇怪的事情。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Yeah, it is, isn't it?
是的，是的，不是吗？
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: This is a bizarre dark and light braided together, this creativity thing.
Andrew Huberman：这是一种奇怪的黑暗和光明编织在一起的东西，这是一种创造力。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: What about feedback from the outside after the thing is done?
Andrew Huberman：事情完成后，外界的反馈怎么样？
Reviews.
评论。
Let's talk about "King Kong." I mean, you've written about the fact that you made this movie, and it wasn't received with broad accolades.
我们来谈谈《金刚》。我的意思是，你已经写过你制作了这部电影的事实，但它并没有获得广泛的赞誉。
Steven Pressfield: It was quite embarrassing, yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的，这很尴尬。
Andrew Huberman: But was the movie that bad?
安德鲁·休伯曼：但这部电影有那么糟糕吗？
Steven Pressfield: Oh, it was terrible.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：噢，太糟糕了。
Yeah, it was really terrible.
是的，那真的太可怕了。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah?
安德鲁·休伯曼：是吗？
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Did you know it was terrible when you released it?
Andrew Huberman：当你发布它的时候你知道它很糟糕吗？
Steven Pressfield: No. That was even worse.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：不。那更糟糕。
Andrew Huberman: So, you thought it was awesome.
Andrew Huberman：所以，你认为这很棒。
Steven Pressfield: It was "King Kong Lives," one of the worst movies ever.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：这是《金刚实录》，有史以来最糟糕的电影之一。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: And I remember that I wrote this with a partner, Ron Shusett, who was one of the guys who originally did the first "Alien," the thing where the alien bursts out of the guy's chest.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：我记得我和一个搭档罗恩·舒塞特一起写了这篇文章，他是最初制作第一部《异形》的人之一，异形从他的胸口冲出来。
That was his.
那是他的。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Along with the whole face hugger thing, that was his too.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德（Steven Pressfield）：除了整个脸部拥抱的事情之外，那也是他的。
So, he was a really legendary guy, particularly in science fiction.
所以，他是一个真正的传奇人物，尤其是在科幻小说中。
And I was kind of his junior partner.
我是他的初级合伙人。
And we did this movie for Dino De Laurentiis, on a contract, and when we were done, we thought, "This is great." This is how crazy we were.
我们根据合同为迪诺·德·劳伦蒂斯拍了这部电影，当我们完成后，我们想，“这太棒了。”这就是我们有多疯狂。
And we invited all of our friends to the screening or something, and when it was over, it was like deathly silence, you know?
我们邀请了所有的朋友参加放映或其他活动，当放映结束时，就像死一般的寂静，你知道吗？
Steven Pressfield: And I was telling you before we did this thing today, the review in "Daily Variety" said, "Ronald Shusett and Steven Pressfield, we hope these are not their real names for their parents' sake." So, that was definitely a bad moment.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：在我们今天做这件事之前，我告诉过你，《每日综艺》的评论说，“罗纳德·舒塞特和史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德，为了他们父母的缘故，我们希望这些不是他们的真名。”所以，那绝对是一个糟糕的时刻。
But from my point of view, it was the first time I got a movie made that I was involved with at all.
但从我的角度来看，这是我第一次参与制作一部电影。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: So, I had to say, and a friend of mine, my friend Tony Keppelman, took me aside and said, "You're in the arena, man.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：所以，我不得不说，我的一个朋友，我的朋友托尼·凯佩尔曼，把我拉到一边说，“你在竞技场上，伙计。
You're taking the blows, but you're out there doing it." And he was absolutely right.
你正在承受打击，但你却在外面做这件事。”他是绝对正确的。
So, at the end, I turned out to be very grateful to that, and I still am grateful to it.
所以，最后，我对此非常感激，而且仍然感激不已。
But it certainly was a terrible review, and it kept you humble.
但这确实是一篇糟糕的评论，它让你保持谦虚。
Andrew Huberman: Did you go back and analyze what was wrong with the movie and what could have made it great?
安德鲁·休伯曼：你有没有回去分析一下这部电影的问题所在以及哪些因素可以使它变得精彩？
Steven Pressfield: No. It was too painful to even think about.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：不。这太痛苦了，连想都不敢想。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: When was the last time you watched it?
安德鲁·胡伯曼：你最后一次看它是什么时候？
Steven Pressfield: Oh, not since when it came out, which was like, 1980-something or other.
Steven Pressfield：哦，从它问世起就没有了，大概是 1980 年左右吧。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: What was the budget for the movie?
安德鲁·休伯曼：这部电影的预算是多少？
Steven Pressfield: A lot.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：很多。
It was a big budget.
这是一笔很大的预算。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Steven Pressfield: I don't know what it was then, but it was a big budget.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：我不知道当时是什么，但这是一个很大的预算。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: In the millions.
安德鲁·休伯曼：数以百万计。
Steven Pressfield: Oh, yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：哦，是的。
Yeah.
是的。
A lot of special effects.
很多特殊效果。
I mean, a King Kong movie had to...
我的意思是，一部金刚电影必须...
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Wild.
安德鲁·休伯曼：狂野。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
So, that was terrible.
所以，那太可怕了。
But I'm definitely a believer that the ideal is to not listen to anything that anybody says about what you did and to judge it only yourself, you know?
但我绝对相信，理想的做法是不听任何人对你所做的事情的评论，而只由你自己来判断，你知道吗？
And if you can...
如果你能...
I think it's good to get sort of an objective cross-section, you know?
我认为获得客观的横截面是件好事，你知道吗？
Some things go out there and they sink without a trace.
有些东西出去了，就沉没了。
Some things, people really love.
有些东西，人们真的很喜欢。
Steven Pressfield: But the bottom line is, like Paul Rink said to me, "Start the next one today," you know?
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：但最重要的是，就像保罗·林克对我说的那样，“今天开始下一个”，你知道吗？
Because it's lifelong, like we were saying, it's for the love of the game.
因为它是终生的，就像我们说的，是为了对游戏的热爱。
It's a lifelong practice, and a professional does not take success or failure personally but keeps on going and does the next one, and the next one, and the next one.
这是一种终生的实践，专业人士不会将成功或失败视为个人，而是继续前进，做下一个、下一个、再下一个。
Andrew Huberman: With creative works, or anything that our name is closely attached to, it's a challenge, right?
Andrew Huberman：对于创意作品，或者任何与我们的名字密切相关的东西，这是一个挑战，对吧？
I mean, a book with the author's name there, a movie with the producers and the directors there, and the actors.
我的意思是，一本有作者名字的书，一部电影有制片人和导演，还有演员。
A podcast.
一个播客。
I mean, almost every major podcast is named after the podcaster.
我的意思是，几乎每个主要的播客都以播客的名字命名。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: It's kind of funny.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这有点有趣。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And in science, the lab is named after you.
Andrew Huberman：在科学领域，实验室是以你的名字命名的。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: You know, Huberman Lab, or whatever lab.
Andrew Huberman：你知道，Huberman 实验室，或者其他实验室。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah, yeah.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：是的，是的。
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
是啊，是啊，是啊。
Andrew Huberman: I always thought the lab should be named after a particular scientific quest.
Andrew Huberman：我一直认为实验室应该以特定的科学探索命名。
That's how they do it in other countries.
在其他国家他们就是这样做的。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: I think that's a lot more elegant, and it also teaches a lesson to the students and post-docs that you're after discovery.
Andrew Huberman：我认为这要优雅得多，而且它也给学生和博士后上了一课，让他们知道你正在寻找发现。
It's not just about your career.
这不仅仅是关于你的职业生涯。
Steven Pressfield: Mm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Unfortunately, in the United States, we promote this notion of the independent investigator.
Andrew Huberman：不幸的是，在美国，我们提倡独立调查员的这一概念。
It's all about the individual, or maybe small group of two or three of them cracking some really difficult...
这完全取决于个人，或者可能是两三个人组成的小团体，以解决一些非常困难的问题......
Watson and Crick.
沃森和克里克。
Steven Pressfield: Mm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Mm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And it's always been this way.
Andrew Huberman：而且一直都是这样。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: It's terrible.
安德鲁·休伯曼：太糟糕了。
It's a feature that, if I had a magic wand, and I don't, I would abolish.
如果我有魔杖，但我没有，我就会废除这个功能。
But when our name is closely attached to something, feedback that's great feels pretty good, and if you're a self-critical, hard-driving person, feedback that's negative can hurt.
但是，当我们的名字与某件事紧密相连时，好的反馈会让人感觉非常好，而如果你是一个自我批评、努力进取的人，负面的反馈可能会造成伤害。
I will say, my experience is that the larger volume of negative feedback that you get day in and day out, the less of an impact it has.
我想说的是，我的经验是，你日复一日收到的负面反馈越多，其影响就越小。
Steven Pressfield: Ah, uh-huh.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊，嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Initially, the podcast would come out, you'd get a bunch of great comments, and you'd get some nasty ones, and then you're like, "Oh, that really hurts."
安德鲁·休伯曼：最初，播客发布后，你会收到很多很棒的评论，也会收到一些令人讨厌的评论，然后你会说，“哦，这真的很伤人。”
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: You podcast every week, two episodes a week, or an episode every week, and pretty soon that stuff just flies right by.
Andrew Huberman：你每周播客，每周两集，或者每周一集，很快这些东西就过去了。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah, right.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的，没错。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: The signal, the noise it just goes way down.
Andrew Huberman：信号、噪音都大大降低了。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：是啊，是啊，是啊。
Andrew Huberman: So, I offer that to people, because the more you put out there, the more feedback you get, and the less of an impact the feedback has, but the positive feedback also.
Andrew Huberman：所以，我向人们提供这一点，因为你提供的越多，得到的反馈就越多，反馈的影响就越小，但积极的反馈也是如此。
It all becomes just noisier in general.
总的来说，一切都变得更加嘈杂。
Steven Pressfield: Mm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Mm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: So, now, when you sit down to write a book, you must see some level of feedback.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，现在，当你坐下来写一本书时，你必须看到某种程度的反馈。
You want to know, is it selling?
你想知道，卖得好吗？
Is it doing well?
进展顺利吗？
Is it not doing well?
是不是做得不好？
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: But it sounds like you don't analyze why it might have done well or not well.
Andrew Huberman：但听起来你没有分析为什么它可能做得好或不好。
You just assume that's where you were at in that point in time, and that's where they're at.
你只是假设那是你当时所处的位置，也是他们所处的位置。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
I don't analyze it, because I don't know if you can ever even figure it out.
我不分析它，因为我不知道你是否能弄清楚。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: And also, so much of it has to do with, in anything that you put out, with timing.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德（Steven Pressfield）：而且，无论你发布什么内容，很大程度上都与时机有关。
Is this ready the moment...
这一刻准备好了吗……
How much did it get promoted?
晋升了多少？
Did people even know it existed?
人们知道它的存在吗？
There's so many factors that are above and beyond whether it was actually good.
除了它是否真的好之外，还有很多因素。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: And so, you can only ask, did you do your best?
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：所以，你只能问，你尽力了吗？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Did you leave it all on the floor?
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：你把它都留在地板上了吗？
And if you did, then that's all you can ask.
如果你这样做了，那么你能问的就只有这些了。
But again, for me, it's a lifelong practice.
但对我来说，这又是一种终生的练习。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: And I'm going to do this until they take me out, you know?
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：我会一直这样做，直到他们把我赶出去，你知道吗？
And whatever the next one is, I'll do that.
无论下一个是什么，我都会这么做。
Andrew Huberman: It's clear you're not going to pull the pin.
Andrew Huberman：很明显，你不会采取行动。
Steven Pressfield: No, I'm not going to pull the pin.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：不，我不会拔掉别针。
Andrew Huberman: Good.
安德鲁·休伯曼： 很好。
Dopamine dynamics in the brain would tell us that if you have a big success, say a book, or a movie, or an album, what have you, that the next thing, no matter how well it goes, is not going to feel that great unless it exceeds the previous thing.
大脑中的多巴胺动态会告诉我们，如果你取得了巨大的成功，比如一本书、一部电影或一张专辑，你拥有什么，那么下一件事，无论进展得多么顺利，除非它超过了前一件事，否则不会感觉那么好。
This is just the laws of dopamine circuitry that exist in all of us.
这就是我们所有人体内存在的多巴胺回路的规律。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I didn't write the script.
安德鲁·休伯曼：剧本不是我写的。
It's hardwired.
它是硬连线的。
Of all your books, which one got the most public acceptance and praise?
在您的所有书籍中，哪一本获得了最多的公众认可和好评？
Steven Pressfield: ...
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：……
it's either "The War of Art" or "Gates of Fire."
它要么是“艺术之战”，要么是“火之门”。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
What book came after that?
后来出了什么书？
Steven Pressfield: But let me say, on both of them, it took years for either of them to reach any kind of level.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：但我要说的是，他们两个都花了数年时间才达到某种水平。
Andrew Huberman: Oh, sorry.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哦，抱歉。
Andrew Huberman: Mm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Steven Pressfield: And neither of them were overnight successes.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：他们都不是一夜成名的。
There wasn't any of that fanfare.
没有任何那种大肆宣传。
Nothing, really.
没什么，真的。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Finally, maybe eight or ten years later, you realize, "Oh, this thing is percolating along pretty good," you know?
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：最后，也许八年或十年后，你意识到，“哦，这件事渗透得很好，”你知道吗？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: So, that's a whole different sort of...
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：所以，这是一种完全不同的......
There wasn't that much dopamine coming in to me on that.
对此我并没有产生太多的多巴胺。
Andrew Huberman: That's probably a good thing.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这可能是一件好事。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah, I think so.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的，我想是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I mean, the whole notion of one-hit wonders, like bands that get...
安德鲁·休伯曼：我的意思是，一击奇迹的整个概念，就像乐队......
There's that great movie with Tom Hanks about that.
汤姆·汉克斯主演的一部很棒的电影就是关于这个的。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I forget what the title is.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我忘了标题是什么。
Steven Pressfield: "That Thing You Do!"
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：“你做的事！”
Andrew Huberman: "That Thing You Do!" It's a perfect example of that.
安德鲁·休伯曼：“你做的事！”这是一个完美的例子。
And there are these one-hit wonders, or kids that they blow up, they get one song, then it's...
还有这些一击奇迹，或者他们炸毁的孩子，他们得到一首歌，然后......
gone.
走了。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: There's actually an incredible movie that, if you don't mind, I'll just mention to people, that I wish everyone would see.
安德鲁·休伯曼：实际上有一部令人难以置信的电影，如果你不介意的话，我会向人们提及，我希望每个人都能看到。
It's a documentary that I saw at the Tribeca Film Festival years ago called "My Big Break."
这是我几年前在翠贝卡电影节上看过的一部纪录片，名为《我的大突破》。
Steven Pressfield: Oh, I never heard of it.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：哦，我从来没有听说过。
Huh.
呵呵。
Andrew Huberman: And it's a true story of four guys living in an apartment in Los Angeles who all want to become actors.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：这是一个真实的故事，讲述了住在洛杉矶一间公寓里的四个人都想成为演员的故事。
And I won't give any more information about it, but let's just say one of them becomes immensely successful.
我不会提供更多相关信息，但我们只能说其中之一取得了巨大的成功。
I won't talk about what happens to the other three.
我不会谈论其他三个人的遭遇。
But the takeaway from the movie, and this is not a spoiler, is that everybody gets their big break at some point.
但这部电影的要点（这不是剧透）是每个人都会在某个时刻获得重大突破。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: Most people blow it.
安德鲁·休伯曼：大多数人都搞砸了。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: And they don't blow it because they can't do the thing.
Andrew Huberman：他们不会搞砸，因为他们做不到。
They blow it because they can't handle that it's happening, and it gets in the way of their creative process, or their essence.
他们搞砸了，因为他们无法应对正在发生的事情，并且它妨碍了他们的创作过程或本质。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: It's an awesome documentary.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这是一部很棒的纪录片。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Steven Pressfield: I bet.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：我敢打赌。
Oh, really?
哦真的吗？
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Steven Pressfield: "My Big Break," huh?
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：“我的重大突破”，嗯？
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，是的。
Steven Pressfield: All right.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：好的。
I'll have to check that out.
我得检查一下。
Andrew Huberman: Fantastic documentary.
安德鲁·休伯曼：精彩的纪录片。
And I think anyone that wants to get good at anything should see it.
我认为任何想要擅长任何事情的人都应该看到它。
Steven Pressfield: Mm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: I certainly learned a lot from it.
Andrew Huberman：我当然从中学到了很多东西。
Okay, so you're not paying attention to the criticism.
好吧，所以你没有关注批评。
Steven Pressfield: I'm trying not to.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：我尽量不这样做。
I'm human, and you know.
我是人类，你知道的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Sure.
当然。
Steven Pressfield: But definitely the ideal is to really move beyond that.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德（Steven Pressfield）：但绝对理想的是真正超越这一点。
Andrew Huberman: I went to college with Jack Johnson, you know, the guitar player?
安德鲁·休伯曼：我和吉他手杰克·约翰逊一起上大学，你知道吗？
He's a very successful musician.
他是一位非常成功的音乐家。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: And years ago, we connected and he was telling me about his life, because I knew his now wife.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：几年前，我们联系上了，他向我讲述了他的生活，因为我认识他现在的妻子。
She went to college with us.
她和我们一起上大学。
And he was telling me about his kids.
他正在向我讲述他的孩子们。
And it was so clear from everything he was telling me that he had created methods to not really come in contact with just how big he had gotten.
从他告诉我的一切中可以清楚地看出，他创造了一些方法来不真正接触到自己已经变得有多大。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: To really humble himself on a daily basis, doing house chores, cleaning the toilet, whatever it is, especially the days after big festivals, where he just had immense crowds, and that he'd built these sort of self-regulatory processes.
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：每天都让自己谦虚，做家务，打扫厕所，无论是什么，尤其是在大型节日之后的几天，那里有大量的人群，并且他建立了这些自我监管流程。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Steven Pressfield: Hey, good for him.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嘿，对他有好处。
That's great.
那太棒了。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Steven Pressfield: Ah, great.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊，太棒了。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Steven Pressfield: Wow.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：哇。
Good for him.
对他有好处。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: It sounds like you...
安德鲁·休伯曼：听起来你……
Steven Pressfield: It's like a very Zen sort of story, like when the master would say, "Sweep the corner," you know?
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：这就像一个非常禅宗的故事，就像大师会说“扫角落”，你知道吗？
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
We grew up in Hawaii.
我们在夏威夷长大。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: We grew up in Hawaii, so he's got that--
安德鲁·休伯曼：我们在夏威夷长大，所以他知道——
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: He always had this mellow.
安德鲁·休伯曼：他总是那么温和。
It was amazing.
太棒了。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: From day one of college, he was way cooler than everybody.
安德鲁·休伯曼：从上大学的第一天起，他就比所有人都要酷。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And super nice.
安德鲁·休伯曼：而且超级好。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: So, he didn't act cool.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，他表现得并不酷。
He was just cool because he was just Jack.
他很酷，因为他只是杰克。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: Great surfer, great guy, his wife's awesome.
Andrew Huberman：伟大的冲浪者，伟大的人，他的妻子很棒。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: He picked up a guitar.
安德鲁·休伯曼：他拿起了一把吉他。
He was in a college band that was okay.
他在一个大学乐队里，这还不错。
He was like a backup.
他就像一个备份。
He wasn't even the main guy.
他甚至不是主角。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: And then I was in graduate school one day, and I think I got iTunes.
Andrew Huberman：有一天，我在读研究生，我想我有了 iTunes。
And I look, and it was like, "Jack Johnson." And I called a friend and I was like, "Jack Johnson's on iTunes."
我一看，就像是“杰克·约翰逊”。我打电话给一个朋友，我说：“杰克·约翰逊在 iTunes 上。”
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: They're like, "You haven't noticed?" I was like, "No, I've been nose down in the lab."
安德鲁·休伯曼：他们就像是，“你还没有注意到吗？”我当时想，“不，我一直在实验室里低着头。”
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: He's a really big deal.
安德鲁·休伯曼：他真的很重要。
And, I mean, he's been a really big deal for a very long time.
而且，我的意思是，很长一段时间以来，他一直是一个非常重要的人物。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: Incredibly humble, incredibly kind, and self-regulates.
Andrew Huberman：非常谦虚，非常友善，并且自我调节。
Steven Pressfield: Mm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Good for him.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：对他有好处。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
External validation sounds like it's an enemy for you as much as criticism is an enemy.
外部验证听起来就像是你的敌人，就像批评是你的敌人一样。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah, I mean, I certainly don't believe in it at all.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的，我的意思是，我当然根本不相信它。
I think it's a seductive thing that's only going to pull you in the wrong direction, you know?
我认为这是一件诱人的事情，只会把你拉向错误的方向，你知道吗？
Third-party validation, as Shawn Coyne, my business partner...
第三方验证，作为我的业务合作伙伴 Shawn Coyne...
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Which I have to give him credit before we forget.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：在我们忘记之前，我必须赞扬他。
The title "The War of Art" was not my title.
“艺术之战”这个标题不是我的标题。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: It was Shawn Coyne's title.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：这是肖恩·科因的头衔。
Andrew Huberman: He handed that to you.
Andrew Huberman：他把它交给你了。
Steven Pressfield: He gave me that title, yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的，他给了我这个头衔。
We published the book together.
我们一起出版了这本书。
His little company published it, but that was his title.
他的小公司出版了它，但那是他的标题。
Andrew Huberman: Great title.
安德鲁·休伯曼：很棒的标题。
Steven Pressfield: So, God bless him.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：所以，上帝保佑他。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, God bless him.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，上帝保佑他。
Titles matter.
头衔很重要。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah, they do.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的，他们确实如此。
Andrew Huberman: Titles matter.
安德鲁·休伯曼：头衔很重要。
Steven Pressfield: "Eat Pray Love." It doesn't get better than that.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：“美食、祈祷、爱。”没有比这更好的了。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: "The Body Keeps the Score."
安德鲁·休伯曼：“身体记录分数。”
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: No other book in the field of psychology, biology, or wellness has resonated in people's minds as much and as long as "The Body Keeps the Score," because it's just an awesome title.
安德鲁·休伯曼：在心理学、生物学或健康领域，没有哪一本书能像《身体保持分数》那样在人们的心中产生如此大的共鸣，因为它只是一个很棒的书名。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah, it is.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：是的，确实如此。
It's a great one.
这是一件很棒的事情。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: How much or how often do you think about book titles?
Andrew Huberman：您有多少次或多久思考一次书名？
Is it at the end?
到最后了吗？
During?
期间？
Steven Pressfield: At the end, but I find that they're really hard, you know?
Steven Pressfield：最后，但我发现它们真的很难，你知道吗？
And a lot of times, other people have titled stuff for me.
很多时候，其他人已经为我命名了一些东西。
Andrew Huberman: Mm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Steven Pressfield: It's really hard to come up with a great one.
Steven Pressfield：想出一部伟大的作品真的很难。
Yeah.
是的。
I don't know what the secret is at all.
我根本不知道其中的秘密是什么。
Sometimes it pops out along the way.
有时它会在途中弹出。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Andrew Huberman: I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function.
Andrew Huberman：我想稍微休息一下，并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。
Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.
去年，在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我成为了 Function 成员。
Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health.
Function 提供 100 多项高级实验室测试，为您提供整个身体健康状况的关键快照。
This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more.
此快照为您提供有关心脏健康、激素健康、免疫功能、营养水平等方面的见解。
Andrew Huberman: They've also recently added tests for toxins, such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics, and tests for PFAS, or forever chemicals.
Andrew Huberman：他们最近还增加了毒素测试，例如有害塑料中的 BPA 暴露，以及 PFAS 或永久化学物质的测试。
Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas.
Function 不仅提供对您的身心健康至关重要的 100 多种生物标记物的测试，而且还分析这些结果并提供相关领域专家的顶级医生的见解。
For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood.
例如，在我第一次使用 Function 进行测试时，我发现我的血液中汞含量升高。
Andrew Huberman: Function not only helped me detect that, but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification.
Andrew Huberman：功能不仅帮助我发现了这一点，而且还提供了如何最好地降低汞含量的见解，其中包括限制金枪鱼的摄入量，我一直在吃大量的金枪鱼，同时还努力吃更多的绿叶蔬菜并补充 NAC、乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都可以支持谷胱甘肽的产生和解毒。
And I should say, by taking a second Function test, that approach worked.
我应该说，通过进行第二次功能测试，这种方法奏效了。
Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important.
全面的血液检测至关重要。
There's so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test.
有很多与您的心理和身体健康相关的事情只能通过血液检查来检测。
Andrew Huberman: The problem is, blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated.
Andrew Huberman：问题是，血液检测一直非常昂贵且复杂。
In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost.
相比之下，Function 的简单性和成本水平给我留下了深刻的印象。
It is very affordable.
这是非常实惠的。
As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.
因此，我决定加入他们的科学顾问委员会，我很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。
If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Function，可以访问 functionhealth.com/huberman。
Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to "Huberman Podcast" listeners.
Function 目前有超过 250,000 人的等待名单，但他们正在为“Huberman Podcast”听众提供早期访问服务。
Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.
同样，可以通过 functionhealth.com/huberman 提前访问 Function。
Andrew Huberman: Do you think that personal sacrifice at the level of relationships is necessary to be a successful artist of any kind?
安德鲁·休伯曼：你认为，要成为任何类型的成功艺术家，在关系层面上的个人牺牲是必要的吗？
Steven Pressfield: Certainly, in my experience, yes.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：当然，根据我的经验，是的。
And I was talking to a friend of mine, who's a bodybuilder, and he was talking, and he was just saying to me the other day, he said, "I don't believe in balance.
我正在和我的一个朋友聊天，他是一名健美运动员，他正在聊天，有一天他对我说，“我不相信平衡。
The work/life balance, you know?" And I'm kind of that way too, you know?
工作与生活的平衡，你知道吗？”我也是这样的，你知道吗？
If you want...
如果你想...
I mean, I take my hat off tremendously to Kobe Bryant for being such a family man.
我的意思是，我向科比·布莱恩特致敬，因为他是一个有家室的男人。
Obviously loved his kids, loved his wife, but yet was obsessed with basketball to the nth degree.
显然他爱他的孩子，爱他的妻子，但他却对篮球痴迷到了极致。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Somehow, he did it, and able even to go beyond that, and be helpful to people and so forth.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：不知何故，他做到了，甚至能够超越这一点，为人们提供帮助等等。
Steven Pressfield: But I do think that at some point, if you're going to pursue your calling, whatever it is, you've got to pursue it with both feet.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：但我确实认为，在某些时候，如果你要追求你的使命，无论它是什么，你都必须用双脚去追求它。
And so, that might lead to an unbalanced life.
因此，这可能会导致生活不平衡。
Andrew Huberman: So, that means telling people you're going to bed early.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，这意味着告诉人们你要早点睡觉。
You go to bed very early.
你很早就睡觉了。
Steven Pressfield: I go to bed early, but that's just my own quirkiness, you know?
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：我很早就睡觉了，但这只是我自己的怪癖，你知道吗？
But there are a lot of things that I've missed in life, including having kids.
但生活中我错过了很多事情，包括生孩子。
But I don't regret it, you know?
但我并不后悔，你知道吗？
That's the nature of the game, I think.
我认为这就是游戏的本质。
Andrew Huberman: Well, you have a rich and full life.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯，你的生活丰富而充实。
Steven Pressfield: I mean, I have an unbalanced life, but for me, it's what I've chosen, you know?
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：我的意思是，我的生活不平衡，但对我来说，这是我选择的，你知道吗？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: This is like that great speech in "The Godfather Part II" where...
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：这就像《教父第二部》中那场精彩的演讲……
Is it Lee Strasberg who played the equivalent of Meyer, not Meyer Lansky, the real whatever, I forget what his name was, but he was talking about when...
是李·斯特拉斯伯格（Lee Strasberg）扮演了相当于迈耶（Meyer）的角色，而不是真正的迈耶·兰斯基（Meyer Lansky），我忘记了他的名字是什么，但他正在谈论……
Andrew Huberman: Hyman Roth.
安德鲁·休伯曼：海曼·罗斯。
Steven Pressfield: Hyman Roth, Hyman Roth.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：海曼·罗斯，海曼·罗斯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: And he had this scene with Michael Corleone where he talks about Moe Greene, his protégé, that they grew up together, "Somebody put a bullet in his eye, and I never asked who did it because I said to myself, 'This is the life we've chosen.'" And that's how I look at it.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：他和迈克尔·柯里昂有一场戏，他谈到莫·格林，他的门生，他们一起长大，“有人把一颗子弹射进了他的眼睛，我从来没有问过是谁干的，因为我对自己说，‘这就是我们选择的生活。’”这就是我的看法。
Andrew Huberman: It's interesting...
安德鲁·休伯曼：这很有趣......
Steven Pressfield: It was a great scene, too.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：那也是一个很棒的场景。
Andrew Huberman: It is a great scene.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这是一个很棒的场景。
God, those movies are so good.
天哪，那些电影真好看。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: The first two, anyway.
Andrew Huberman：无论如何，前两个。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Talk about a flop on the third.
谈论第三局的失败。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
In the United States, we celebrate high achievers and people that really break off from the pack.
在美国，我们庆祝杰出成就者和真正脱颖而出的人。
It's really the essence of the United States in terms of how it was, you know?
这确实是美国的本质，你知道吗？
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Steven Pressfield: More's the pity.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：更多的是遗憾。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, exactly.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，完全正确。
Steven Pressfield: Now we're paying the price, yeah.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：现在我们正在付出代价，是的。
Andrew Huberman: But Michael Jordan, you know, Kobe Bryant, I mean, these people had, as you pointed out very...
安德鲁·胡伯曼：但是迈克尔·乔丹，你知道，科比·布莱恩特，我的意思是，正如你所指出的，这些人非常......
Well, maybe Kobe was a bit more balanced, but an immense number of hours devoted to craft.
好吧，也许科比更平衡一些，但他在技术上投入了大量的时间。
But I feel like if you grow up in the United States, at some point, you get the message that that could be you.
但我觉得，如果你在美国长大，在某个时候，你会得到这样的信息：那可能就是你。
Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Right?
安德鲁·休伯曼：对吗？
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: That's different.
安德鲁·休伯曼：那是不同的。
And I know, because my dad's from South America, and I have family from Europe, and I've been exposed to the fact that not every kid around the world grows up getting the message in their ear all the time like, "Hey, that could be you."
我知道，因为我的父亲来自南美洲，我的家人来自欧洲，而且我已经了解到这样一个事实：并不是世界上每个孩子在成长过程中都会一直听到这样的信息，比如“嘿，那可能是你。”
Steven Pressfield: Hmm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: "You just have to find your thing and devote yourself."
安德鲁·胡伯曼：“你只需要找到你的事情并全身心投入。”
Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Then now there seems to be a bit of a pivot where people focus on the flaws those high achievers had, and that they weren't perfect.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：那么现在似乎有一个关键点，人们将注意力集中在那些高成就者所具有的缺陷上，并且他们并不完美。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And I think what we're saying here is that, or what I'm hearing is that it's by definition that if you're going to go for a high peak, that your life is not going to be balanced.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为我们在这里所说的是，或者我听到的是，根据定义，如果你要追求高峰，你的生活就不会平衡。
Andrew Huberman: Sort of like Edmund Hillary, first to climb Everest, he was gone for a long time.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：有点像埃德蒙·希拉里，第一个登上珠穆朗玛峰的人，他已经离开很长一段时间了。
They didn't have cell phones.
他们没有手机。
Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I imagine if he had a family, they didn't even know if he was going to come back.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：我想如果他有家人，他们甚至不知道他是否会回来。
Steven Pressfield: Mm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: That's not balance.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这不是平衡。
Steven Pressfield: Mm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: That's not balance at all.
Andrew Huberman：这根本不是平衡。
They weren't handing out checks at the top of Everest.
他们没有在珠穆朗玛峰顶上发放支票。
Steven Pressfield: Mm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: So, this idea that pursuing one's craft at the expense of something else, is that something that you carefully analyzed along the way?
Andrew Huberman：那么，这种以牺牲其他东西为代价来追求自己的技艺的想法，是你一路上仔细分析过的吗？
Or do you feel you've been driven by some force inside you to just keep leaning into creative works, and if things have to gently, or not so gently, fall off the side, so be it?
或者你是否觉得自己被内心的某种力量驱使着继续致力于创造性的工作，如果事情必须轻轻地或不那么轻轻地从一边掉下来，那就这样吧？
Steven Pressfield: I have tried, in my life, various other endeavors, including love, marriage, a straight career, a blue-collar career, always trying to find something that, at the end of the day, I could lay my head on the pillow and have peace of mind.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：在我的一生中，我尝试过各种其他的努力，包括爱情、婚姻、正直的职业、蓝领职业，总是试图找到一些东西，让我在一天结束时可以把头枕在枕头上，得到内心的平静。
Steven Pressfield: And nothing worked until I found...
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：在我发现之前，一切都不起作用……
pursuing my craft.
追求我的手艺。
That worked for me, you know?
这对我有用，你知道吗？
At the end of the day, I felt, "Okay, I've earned my place on the planet doing this," whereas other things, at the end of the day, I would just be crazy, you know?
在一天结束时，我觉得，“好吧，我已经通过这样做在这个星球上赢得了自己的位置”，而其他事情，在一天结束时，我只是疯了，你知道吗？
So, I was sort of led to that.
所以，我有点被引导到了那一步。
Steven Pressfield: It was like, "Thank God I found something that I can hang my hat on." That was a long time ago.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：就像是，“感谢上帝，我找到了可以挂在帽子上的东西。”那是很久以前的事了。
And over the course of those years, from time to time, I asked myself, "Is this still working for you, or should you be evolving into something beyond this?" But it is still working for me, and there is...
在这些年里，我时不时地问自己：“这对你来说仍然有效，还是你应该发展到超越这个的程度？”但它仍然对我有用，而且......
I don't really have a bucket list of stuff, you know?
我真的没有一个遗愿清单，你知道吗？
If somebody gave me a billion dollars, I'd just give it away, you know?
如果有人给我十亿美元，我会把它送出去，你知道吗？
Steven Pressfield: So, yeah, it just was, for me...
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：所以，是的，对我来说......
And again, it's not even about peak success, because I haven't had peak success at all.
再说一遍，这甚至与巅峰成功无关，因为我根本没有取得过巅峰成功。
I've had enough success to pay the rent, which is good enough for me, you know?
我已经取得了足够的成功来支付房租，这对我来说已经足够了，你知道吗？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: I'm doing what I want to do, and I don't have to do something else.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：我正在做我想做的事，我不需要做其他事情。
So, for me, it's really a sort of pursuit of what I feel like I was put on the planet to do.
所以，对我来说，这实际上是一种对我感觉自己来到这个星球上要做的事情的追求。
And it's always been a surprise, too.
这也总是令人惊讶。
Book to book to book, I never...
一本书又一本书，我从来没有...
Each one is a surprise, which is another sort of weird counterintuitive thing.
每一个都是一个惊喜，这是另一种奇怪的违反直觉的事情。
It isn't like, "Oh, could you do a five-year plan?" "I'm going to do this, and then this." No. If something comes, it presents itself, it comes in from the goddess, and there it is, you know?
这不像是“哦，你能制定一个五年计划吗？” “我要做这个，然后再做这个。”不。如果有什么东西来了，它就会出现，它来自女神，它就在那里，你知道吗？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: And then you do it.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：然后你就去做。
Andrew Huberman: So, it's clear it's in your nature to create things and to discover what it is you need to create.
Andrew Huberman：所以，很明显，创造事物并发现你需要创造什么是你的天性。
I can't help but feel that we're all here to do something particular to us.
我情不自禁地觉得我们来这里是为了做一些对我们来说特别的事情。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah, I think so.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的，我想是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
And I think a lot of times, if people don't have a balanced life, people assume, "Oh, well, that's trauma." And sometimes it is, or that's this or that's that.
我认为很多时候，如果人们没有平衡的生活，人们就会认为，“哦，好吧，那是创伤。”有时是这样，或者是这样，或者是那样。
I mean, nowadays I have more, quote, unquote "famous" friends, and a lot of them have trauma, a lot of them don't.
我的意思是，现在我有更多的“名人”朋友，他们中的很多人都有创伤，很多人没有。
Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Some of them are really happy.
Andrew Huberman：他们中的一些人真的很高兴。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: And a lot of them have...
安德鲁·休伯曼：他们中的很多人都有......
Steven Pressfield: It's kind of disappointing, isn't it?
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：这有点令人失望，不是吗？
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
And a lot of them have what I call kind of more of a bento box life, where their career is the main entree, and then there's some other little things, and they have relationships of different kinds, animals, or people.
他们中的很多人过着我所说的更像是便当盒的生活，他们的职业是主菜，然后还有一些其他的小事情，他们有不同种类、动物或人的关系。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And some people, the relationship bin is bigger.
安德鲁·休伯曼：对于有些人来说，关系范围更大。
Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And their career is less of a focus, and they seem very happy.
Andrew Huberman：他们的职业生涯不再是焦点，而且他们看起来很快乐。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: So, this notion of balance is a peculiar one that people...
安德鲁·胡伯曼：所以，这种平衡的概念是一种特殊的概念，人们......
Whatever bento box people seem to exist in, they sort of like to project onto others.
无论人们似乎存在于什么样的便当盒中，他们都喜欢投射到别人身上。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: How much time do you spend on social media?
Andrew Huberman：您在社交媒体上花费了多少时间？
Steven Pressfield: Maybe an hour a day.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：也许每天一个小时。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: It's a vice which I've got to definitely stop doing.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：这是一种我必须停止做的恶习。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: But I will go through Instagram and do that, just kind of...
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：但我会通过 Instagram 来做这件事，只是......
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: As far as communicating with people, very little, you know?
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：就与人交流而言，很少，你知道吗？
My email, I'm done with my email in two minutes in the morning, you know?
我的电子邮件，我早上两分钟就处理完了电子邮件，你知道吗？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
But I do think it's great that it's you on social media, that it's your voice for your content.
但我确实认为社交媒体上有你的声音，你为你的内容发声，这很好。
Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I think that's great, because I think that there's a real thing to that.
Andrew Huberman：我认为这很棒，因为我认为这是真实的。
Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: People now can get in near direct contact with the creators that they're inspired by.
Andrew Huberman：人们现在可以与他们受到启发的创作者进行近距离直接接触。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Steven Pressfield: Which is great.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：这太棒了。
And with other people that are doing whatever they're doing.
以及其他正在做他们正在做的事情的人。
Andrew Huberman: I think it is great.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为这很棒。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: One thing that I really appreciate about all your work is that there doesn't seem to be a consistent theme.
Andrew Huberman：我真正欣赏你所有工作的一件事是，似乎没有一个一致的主题。
Some of them overlap, right?
其中一些是重叠的，对吧？
Steven Pressfield: Right.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：对。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: But there are a lot of different themes in there.
Andrew Huberman：但是其中有很多不同的主题。
Before we move to some of the themes that perhaps people are not expecting, that I'd like to parse with you, talk about turning pro and the concept of being a professional.
在我们讨论一些人们可能没有想到的主题之前，我想和你们一起解析一下，谈谈转职业和成为专业人士的概念。
Steven Pressfield: If we accept the idea of Resistance with a capital R, that's our own internal tendency to sabotage ourselves when we try to set out to write our book, or do our movie, or follow our calling, whatever it is, then the question becomes, "Well, how do you overcome this thing?"
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：如果我们接受大写 R 的抵抗理念，那么当我们试图开始写书、拍电影或追随我们的使命（无论是什么）时，这就是我们内在的自我破坏倾向，那么问题就变成了，“那么，你如何克服这个问题呢？”
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: And what worked for me was the idea of turning pro.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：对我来说最有效的是成为职业球员的想法。
For years, when I was struggling and could never get it together, I realized that at one point that I was just thinking like an amateur, and that if I could flip a switch in my mind and think like a professional, that I could overcome some of the things.
多年来，当我一直在苦苦挣扎却始终无法解决问题时，我意识到，在某一时刻，我只是像业余爱好者一样思考，而如果我能打开脑海中的开关，像专业人士一样思考，我就可以克服一些事情。
Steven Pressfield: Like when I think of a great pro, I think of Kobe Bryant, or Michael Jordan, or Tom Brady, or somebody like that.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：就像当我想到一位伟大的职业球员时，我会想到科比·布莱恩特、迈克尔·乔丹、汤姆·布雷迪或类似的人。
And so, a professional, some of the characteristics of a professional, as opposed to an amateur.
因此，专业人士具有专业人士的一些特征，而不是业余爱好者的特征。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: A professional shows up every day.
Steven Pressfield：每天都有专业人士出现。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: A professional stays on the job all day, or the equivalent of all day.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德（Steven Pressfield）：专业人士整天或相当于一整天都在工作。
I mean, a lot of us who have jobs are professionals in our jobs, but when we come home at night and we try to start our band, or our fiddle band, we flame out on that, because we can't sort of carry over that professional attitude.
我的意思是，我们很多有工作的人都是工作中的专业人士，但是当我们晚上回家并尝试组建我们的乐队或小提琴乐队时，我们就熄火了，因为我们无法保持那种专业态度。
A professional, as I said this before, does not take success or failure personally.
正如我之前所说，专业人士不会将成功或失败视为针对个人。
An amateur will, right?
业余爱好者会的，对吗？
Steven Pressfield: An amateur gets a bad review, a bad response of this, and they just crap out, "I don't want to do this anymore." Right?
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德（Steven Pressfield）：业余爱好者得到了不好的评论，对此的反应很差，他们只是胡言乱语，“我不想再这样做了。”正确的？
A professional plays hurt.
职业球员打球会受伤。
Like, if Kobe Bryant, Michael Jordan, if they've tweaked a hamstring, they're out there, you know?
就像，如果科比·布莱恩特、迈克尔·乔丹，如果他们扭伤了腿筋，他们就在那里，你知道吗？
They'll die before they'll be taken off the court, you know?
他们在被带下球场之前就会死，你知道吗？
Whereas an amateur, when he or she confronts adversity, will fold.
而业余爱好者，当他或她遇到逆境时，就会屈服。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: "Oh, it's too cold out.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：“哦，外面太冷了。
I've got the flu," that kind of thing.
我得了流感”之类的话。
Another thing, an amateur worries about how they feel.
另一件事是，业余爱好者担心自己的感受。
Like, "Oh, I don't feel like getting out of bed this morning.
就像，“哦，我今天早上不想起床。
I don't feel like really doing my work today." A professional doesn't care how they feel.
我今天不想真正做我的工作。”专业人士不会关心他们的感受。
They do it, right?
他们这么做了，对吗？
Steven Pressfield: So, an amateur has amateur habits, and a professional has professional habits.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：所以，业余爱好者有业余习惯，专业人士有专业习惯。
And my book, "Turning Pro," is about that, flipping that switch in your head that costs no money.
我的书《成为专业人士》就是关于这个问题的，无需花钱就能打开你头脑中的开关。
You don't have to take a course.
你不必参加课程。
You don't have to get certified.
您不必获得认证。
All you have to do is sort of say to yourself, if you can do it, and it isn't easy, "Okay, I'm going to attack this thing, whatever it is now, as if I were Kobe Bryant." Would he quit when he didn't feel like doing it?
你所要做的就是对自己说，如果你能做到的话，这并不容易，“好吧，我要攻击这个东西，不管它现在是什么，就好像我是科比·布莱恩特一样。”当他不想做的时候他会放弃吗？
Absolutely not.
绝对不是。
Steven Pressfield: Oh, here's another aspect of turning pro that worked for me.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：哦，这是转职业的另一个对我有用的方面。
I had about a 10-year career as a screenwriter, as we talked about with "King Kong Lives," and one of the things you learn is that screenwriters, a lot of times, will have their one-man corporations, and they will not sign a contract as themselves.
我有大约 10 年的编剧生涯，正如我们在《金刚生活》中谈到的那样，你学到的一件事是，编剧很多时候都会有自己的公司，他们不会以自己的身份签订合同。
It won't be Andrew Huberman that's on the contract.
合同上不会是安德鲁·胡伯曼。
It'll be your corporation, Huberman Lab, FSO, for services of Andrew Huberman.
这将是您的公司，Huberman Lab，FSO，为 Andrew Huberman 提供服务。
And I really love that idea of thinking of yourself as a two-part thing.
我真的很喜欢将自己视为两部分的想法。
You're the CEO of this thing, and then you're also the guy that does the work.
你是这件事的首席执行官，然后你也是做这项工作的人。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: And I would find that if I was just thinking of myself as the guy that's doing the work, I have a hard time pitching my ideas.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：我会发现，如果我只是把自己视为正在做这项工作的人，我就很难表达我的想法。
I'm sort of too shy.
我有点太害羞了。
But if I'm the CEO of my company, of my corporation, I'm a pro, I can go in there and pimp the hell out of it, you know?
但如果我是我的公司、我的公司的首席执行官，我是一名专业人士，我可以进去并从中拉皮条，你知道吗？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: So, that idea of looking at yourself as a professional kind of takes all judgment out of any failures that we've had.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：所以，将自己视为专业人士的想法消除了我们对任何失败的所有判断。
We don't blame ourselves anymore for procrastinating, or being perfectionists, or giving into fear or self-doubt or anything.
我们不再因为拖延、成为完美主义者、陷入恐惧、自我怀疑或其他任何事情而责备自己。
Steven Pressfield: We just say, "Well, okay, I did that when I was thinking like an amateur, but now I'm going to think like a pro, and a pro just doesn't yield to that stuff." So, that's a mind shift, a mindset shift that really helped me a lot.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：我们只是说，“好吧，当我像业余爱好者一样思考时，我就这样做了，但现在我要像专业人士一样思考，而专业人士不会屈服于这些东西。”所以，这是一种思维转变，一种心态转变，对我帮助很大。
Andrew Huberman: I love that.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我喜欢这个。
I mean, so much of that feels...
我的意思是，很多感觉...
is nested in taking oneself seriously.
植根于认真对待自己。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: You know, I think when people hear the words, "Taking oneself seriously," they think, "Oh, well, someone's going to be really heavy.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你知道，我认为当人们听到“认真对待自己”这句话时，他们会想，“哦，好吧，有人会变得非常沉重。
They're never gonna joke."
他们永远不会开玩笑。”
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh, right.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯嗯，对。
Yeah.
是的。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: "No sense of humor." But that's not what I'm referring to.
安德鲁·休伯曼：“没有幽默感。”但这不是我指的。
I wish people would take themselves more seriously, including their creative sparks inside of them.
我希望人们能够更加认真地对待自己，包括他们内心的创造力火花。
You said there's no cost to turning pro.
你说过转职业是免费的。
I agree there's no monetary cost.
我同意没有金钱成本。
You can decide to flip that switch.
您可以决定打开该开关。
I would argue, and I'm not arguing against, because I don't think that you're pushing this, but I think there's a huge cost.
我会争论，我并不是反对，因为我不认为你在推动这个，但我认为这是一个巨大的成本。
Steven Pressfield: No, I know what you're going to say, and I agree with you.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：不，我知道你要说什么，我同意你的观点。
Andrew Huberman: And the huge cost I'm referring to is the one of how people around you react when you start taking yourself seriously.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我所说的巨大成本是当你开始认真对待自己时周围人的反应。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah, you're absolutely right.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的，你说得完全正确。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I mean, I don't need to go into the story.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我的意思是，我不需要深入讲述这个故事。
I've done it elsewhere.
我在其他地方也做过。
But I was an unimpressive high school student.
但我是一个不起眼的高中生。
Thank God for my high school girlfriend going off to college, and discovering that, and then thank God for the biology teacher that turned me on to biology.
感谢上帝让我的高中女友去上大学并发现了这一点，然后感谢上帝让我的生物老师让我开始接触生物学。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Thank God for Harry Carlisle.
安德鲁·休伯曼：感谢上帝赐予哈里·卡莱尔。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I had the drive, but certainly it wasn't organized in the right ways.
Andrew Huberman：我有动力，但肯定没有以正确的方式组织。
But when I switched from being a fun guy to be around in a lot of contexts, to the guy that is absolutely going to ace the exam no matter how much work I have to put into it, that's absolutely going to be in the gym three days a week, that's absolutely going to get my sleep, you get a lot of flak, especially in your late teens, early 20s.
但当我从一个有趣的人转变为一个在很多场合都活跃的人，变成一个无论我付出多少努力都绝对会在考试中取得好成绩的人，每周绝对会在健身房三天，这绝对会让我睡觉，你会受到很多批评，尤其是在你十几岁、二十岁出头的时候。
Andrew Huberman: Now I did go out and party then.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：现在我确实出去参加了聚会。
I never drank a lot, but I went to parties.
我从来没有喝过很多酒，但我经常参加聚会。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: But across the years, I did fewer and fewer social things.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：但这些年来，我做的社交活动越来越少。
Even as a graduate student, postdoc, and junior professor, at meetings, everyone would go to happy hour.
即使作为研究生、博士后和初级教授，在会议上，每个人都会享受欢乐时光。
I would go work out if I hadn't done it that morning.
如果那天早上我没有锻炼的话，我就会去锻炼。
And I would go to sleep at night instead of staying up late talking in the bar, because great interactions would happen in those bars, scientific discussions, and so forth, but the next morning, I wanted to be on point during the seminar and be able to learn and be able to contribute.
我晚上会去睡觉，而不是在酒吧熬夜聊天，因为这些酒吧里会发生很好的互动、科学讨论等等，但第二天早上，我想在研讨会上能够集中精力，能够学习并做出贡献。
Andrew Huberman: And so, the big cost is that not everybody likes that, because they feel it as pressure.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，最大的代价是并不是每个人都喜欢这样，因为他们觉得这是压力。
It's sort of like if you're eating well and you're eating healthy, people pay more attention to the ways they are not eating healthy, and they will do everything they can to try and make you feel bad about that.
这有点像如果你吃得好而且吃得健康，人们就会更加关注他们饮食不健康的方式，他们会尽一切努力让你对此感到难过。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: We see this en masse.
Andrew Huberman：我们普遍看到了这一点。
We see this in culture, you know?
我们在文化中看到了这一点，你知道吗？
There are extremes of body dysmorphia, and people taking fitness to extremes that aren't healthy, or anything to extremes, but we see people being basically not shamed, but ridiculed for being serious about their health.
身体畸形是有极端的，人们把健身做到了不健康的极端，或者任何极端的事情，但我们看到人们基本上没有被羞辱，而是因为认真对待自己的健康而被嘲笑。
It's nuts.
太疯狂了。
But it's all about them.
但这都是关于他们的。
It's very clear.
非常清楚。
It's all about their own unwillingness to give up the second chocolate croissant.
这都是因为他们自己不愿意放弃第二块巧克力牛角面包。
Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Or to feel like maybe they're not as fit as the people around them.
Andrew Huberman：或者感觉自己可能不像周围的人那么健康。
I mean, when standards around you are at risk of rising, that can be really scary to people.
我的意思是，当你周围的标准面临上升的风险时，这对人们来说真的很可怕。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Steven Pressfield: We were talking about that earlier, Andrew.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：我们早些时候讨论过这个问题，安德鲁。
And I was saying that when you start eating healthy, and sleeping, and getting up early and stuff, it becomes a reproach to your friends who know that they're not doing that, know they should be doing that, and they say, "Now, who is this guy to do that?" And then they will try to sabotage you, and undermine you, and ridicule you, and so you're right, turning pro does have a cost.
我是说，当你开始健康饮食、睡眠、早起之类的时候，这就会成为对你的朋友的一种责备，他们知道他们没有这样做，知道他们应该这样做，他们说，“现在，这个人是谁做的？”然后他们会试图破坏你，削弱你，嘲笑你，所以你是对的，成为职业球员确实需要付出代价。
So a lot of times, if you take that course, you have to leave people behind.
所以很多时候，如果你选择了那门课程，你就不得不把人们抛在后面。
Steven Pressfield: People who were your friends, you can't be friends with them anymore, you know?
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：曾经是你朋友的人，你不能再和他们做朋友了，知道吗？
Because a lot of times, groups of friends will have an unspoken kind of compact among them that, "We're all going to stay mediocre." That's the deal, right?
因为很多时候，一群朋友之间会有一种不言而喻的契约：“我们都会保持平庸。”就是这样，对吧？
And, in fact, "Good Will Hunting." That was what that movie was about, right?
事实上，“善意狩猎”。这就是那部电影的主题，对吧？
That the Matt Damon character was this mathematical genius, right?
马特·达蒙扮演的角色是一位数学天才，对吗？
And his buddies, all of his fist-fighting, Boston Southie guys had this compact.
他的伙伴们，他所有的拳打脚踢的波士顿南方人都拥有这款紧凑型。
They were all going to stay kind of blue-collar guys, and "We're all gonna be buddies, and we're going to have a wonderful time."
他们都会继续做蓝领，“我们都会成为朋友，我们会度过一段美好的时光。”
Steven Pressfield: And then there's that great scene at the end of the movie where Ben Affleck, his best friend, says to him, "If I come back 20 years from now and you're still here, I'm going to kill you."
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：电影最后有一个精彩的场景，他最好的朋友本·阿弗莱克对他说：“如果我 20 年后回来，而你还在这里，我就会杀了你。”
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: "Because you won the lottery.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：“因为你中了彩票。
You got this thing, and this gift, and you've have to use it."
你得到了这个东西，这个礼物，你必须使用它。”
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: So, there are those kinds of pacts that people make.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：所以，人们会签订一些契约。
We're all going to stay mediocre right here where we are.
我们都将在我们所处的地方保持平庸。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: And if you, Andrew, try to rise above, you'll be the tall poppy.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：安德鲁，如果你尝试超越，你就会成为高高的罂粟花。
Somebody's going to cut you off.
有人会打断你。
So, sometimes, we do have to leave people behind.
所以，有时候，我们确实不得不把人们抛在后面。
Andrew Huberman: Well, the good news is, and I can say this from experience, that there are people waiting for you who have high standards that make excellent friends.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯，好消息是，我可以根据经验说，有人在等着你，他们有高标准，可以成为优秀的朋友。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And many of the people that, at one point, we feel we've left behind, later come back and ask for ways to better themselves physically, creatively, et cetera.
安德鲁·休伯曼：许多人一度被我们抛在了后面，但后来又回来寻求如何在身体、创造力等方面改善自己的方法。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I think the notion of dominant culture is one that my dad internalized in me really early on.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，我认为主导文化的概念是我父亲很早就内化到我身上的。
One of the things I love about being a professor at Stanford is you look to your right, or you look to your left, and people are awesome.
作为斯坦福大学的教授，我喜欢的一件事是你向右看，或者向左看，人们都很棒。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: People are going...
安德鲁·休伯曼：人们正在……
It has...
它有...
If anything, I mean, it's the issue that you go, "Well, how much pressure is this?" And I would say, actually, very little from the outside.
我的意思是，如果有的话，那就是你会问的问题：“嗯，这有多大压力？”事实上，我想说的是，很少有来自外部的影响。
Everyone who is a faculty member at Stanford is putting so much pressure on themselves to live out their vision of what they're trying to create.
每个斯坦福大学的教职人员都给自己施加了很大的压力，以实现他们试图创造的愿景。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I mean, it's spectacular.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我的意思是，这太壮观了。
I've got colleagues that I could tell you about, multiple domains of life where they're just 11 out of 10s, right?
我有一些同事，我可以告诉你，他们在生活的多个领域只有十分之十，对吗？
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I mean, in some it's only one, and in some they have more challenged personal lives, like anything else, and in some, they seem to just do it all.
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：我的意思是，在某些方面，这只是其中之一，而在某些方面，他们的个人生活更具挑战性，就像其他任何事情一样，而在某些方面，他们似乎只是做了这一切。
But I think the notion...
但我认为这个概念...
A former guest on this podcast, who is a former Tier 1 operator, DJ Shipley, said, "You never want to be the big fish in the small pond." That's the worst place to be.
该播客的前嘉宾、前一级运营商 DJ Shipley 表示：“你永远不想成为小池塘里的大鱼。”那是最糟糕的地方。
It's the most uncomfortable, sad, low-growth place to be.
这是最不舒服、最悲伤、最低增长的地方。
Steven Pressfield: Mm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: You want to be surrounded by people who are really striving.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你希望身边都是真正努力奋斗的人。
Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: They're really pushing themselves.
Andrew Huberman：他们确实在鞭策自己。
Your standards go up, and you get better, and you realize all sorts of wonderful things about who you can become.
你的标准提高了，你变得更好，你意识到你可以成为什么样的人。
I think that's one good feature of social media now, which is that people can find mentors.
我认为这是现在社交媒体的一个很好的功能，那就是人们可以找到导师。
They can find people who are not giving the illusion of being perfect.
他们可以找到那些不给人完美幻想的人。
Steven Pressfield: That's true.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：确实如此。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: We used to think that famous people were perfect.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我们曾经认为名人是完美的。
Nowadays, the more famous you are, the harder it is to control your reputation.
如今，你越出名，你的声誉就越难控制。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: And I think that's in some ways a good thing.
Andrew Huberman：我认为这在某些方面是一件好事。
It has its darker side, but the idea that nobody is perfect, it's just that people are emphasizing or de-emphasizing certain aspects of life.
它有其阴暗面，但没有人是完美的，只是人们强调或不强调生活的某些方面。
Steven Pressfield: Mm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: So, but yeah, I think turning oneself pro, which is, as you pointed out, something that people can just do for themselves, is really about taking yourself seriously, and taking life seriously.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：所以，但是，是的，我认为把自己变成职业选手，正如你所指出的，这是人们可以为自己做的事情，实际上就是认真对待自己，认真对待生活。
Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And that brings me to a bigger question, which is, so much of what you talk about, this is why I love it so much, is about the practical.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：这给我带来了一个更大的问题，那就是，你谈论的很多内容都是关于实用的，这就是为什么我如此喜欢它。
We started off talking about what you do, and when, and how, and how you close out a session, and how you reopen a session.
我们首先讨论了您做什么、何时、如何、如何结束会话以及如何重新打开会话。
Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: But it seems like you're also very connected to the spiritual aspects of the creative process.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但看来你也与创作过程的精神方面有着密切的联系。
That you really bookend these, for lack of a better phrase, that you really bookend the two aspects of the creative process.
你真的把这些都写下来了，因为缺乏更好的短语，你真的把创作过程的两个方面都写下来了。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Because for many people, they hear about creativity, and it can seem kind of mystical, and it's almost like trying to grab fog.
安德鲁·休伯曼：因为对于很多人来说，他们听说过创造力，这看起来有点神秘，几乎就像试图抓住迷雾一样。
Steven Pressfield: Mm-hmm.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And many times the process is like trying to grab fog.
Andrew Huberman：很多时候这个过程就像试图抓住迷雾。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: So, you've given a lot of extremely practical advice, but when it comes to the kind of spiritual, higher-order stuff, if you will, the muse, how large a role does that play in your reflections about where you're going?
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，你给出了很多非常实用的建议，但是当涉及到精神上的、更高阶的东西时，如果你愿意的话，缪斯，这在你对自己要去哪里的思考中扮演了多大的角色？
Because it sounds like you believe that a lot of this stuff is not us, it's coming through us.
因为听起来你相信很多东西不是我们，而是通过我们传播的。
Steven Pressfield: I absolutely believe that.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：我绝对相信这一点。
And you're right, Andrew.
你是对的，安德鲁。
The creative life, I think, is a two-sided thing.
我认为，创造性生活是两面性的。
The one side is kind of the blue-collar, practical aspect of being a professional, that you can sit down, you can do your work, you discipline yourself, you know what you're going to do.
一方面是作为一名专业人士的蓝领、实际方面，你可以坐下来，你可以做你的工作，你约束自己，你知道你要做什么。
But the other side is that, where do ideas come from?
但另一方面是，想法从哪里来？
They don't come from us.
他们不是来自我们。
They come from someplace else.
他们来自其他地方。
Steven Pressfield: And so, I'm definitely a believer that we live on a material plane here, but there's a plane above us, and we're trying to communicate to that plane, and that plane is trying to communicate to us.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：所以，我绝对相信我们生活在一个物质层面上，但我们上方有一个层面，我们试图与那个层面沟通，而那个层面也试图与我们沟通。
And our job as artists...
而我们作为艺术家的工作......
Like, if we were in a monastery or something, the move from here to here would be called prayer.
就像，如果我们在修道院或其他什么地方，从这里到这里的移动就被称为祈祷。
But if we're artists, the move from here to here is like the invocation of the muse.
但如果我们是艺术家，从这里到这里的移动就像缪斯女神的召唤。
It's kind of saying, "Give me an idea.
这有点像在说：“给我一个主意。
Help me," you know?
帮帮我，”你知道吗？
Steven Pressfield: And we, on the material plane, put ourselves at the service of this higher plane, of our illumined self, or whatever you want to call it, the Jungian self, whatever we want to call it, and try to channel it as best we can.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：在物质层面上，我们把自己服务于这个更高的层面，服务于我们光明的自我，或者无论你怎么称呼它，荣格自我，无论我们想怎么称呼它，并尽力引导它。
And our job here, in terms of being a pro, is to sort of be ready to take that voltage as it comes in.
作为一名专业人士，我们在这里的工作就是做好准备接受电压的到来。
Steven Pressfield: And, like, Beethoven could play on the piano what he was hearing in his head, right?
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：贝多芬可以在钢琴上弹奏他脑海中听到的东西，对吧？
So that's our job.
这就是我们的工作。
We have to be able to know how to produce that in material form, whatever that is.
我们必须能够知道如何以物质形式生产它，无论它是什么。
But it's coming from another place.
但它来自另一个地方。
So, I'm absolutely a believer that there are higher dimensions, and there are probably a lot of higher dimensions.
所以，我绝对相信存在更高的维度，而且可能存在很多更高的维度。
Steven Pressfield: And I think the Greeks were really kind of onto something, the ancient Greeks and their concept of the muses, and the various gods and goddesses that are interacting with this material plane that we're on.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：我认为希腊人真的很喜欢某些东西，古希腊人和他们的缪斯概念，以及与我们所处的这个物质平面相互作用的各种男神和女神。
That's a way of anthropomorphizing it.
这是一种将其拟人化的方式。
I'm sure we could come up with some way in the quantum field or something.
我确信我们可以在量子领域或其他领域想出某种方法。
I mean, you're a scientist.
我的意思是，你是一名科学家。
You probably know that it has to do with something.
您可能知道这与某些事情有关。
I don't know what.
我不知道是什么。
But there is something coming from somewhere, and it ain't us.
但有某种东西来自某处，但它不是我们。
Andrew Huberman: Well, I have my ideas about that.
Andrew Huberman：嗯，我对此有自己的想法。
Very few of them are grounded in neurons and cells, but they interact with neurons and cells.
它们中很少有以神经元和细胞为基础的，但它们与神经元和细胞相互作用。
It's an evolving area.
这是一个不断发展的领域。
We had a guest on the podcast, David DeSteno, who is a professor at Northeastern University.
我们的播客邀请了一位嘉宾，大卫·德斯特诺 (David DeSteno)，他是东北大学的教授。
We talked about the relationship between science and religion, and how acts of faith...
我们讨论了科学与宗教之间的关系，以及信仰行为如何......
Not just saying one believes in God, not just saying one believes in a higher-order consciousness, but acts of faith, prayer.
不只是说一个人相信上帝，不只是说一个人相信更高阶的意识，而是信仰、祈祷的行为。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: For you, maybe it's through writing, or other expressions that involve action...
安德鲁·胡伯曼：对你来说，也许是通过写作，或者其他涉及行动的表达方式……
That those absolutely have positive health benefits.
这些绝对对健康有积极的益处。
We now know that.
我们现在知道了。
But that it's really about the acts of faith that-
但这实际上是关于信仰的行为——
Steven Pressfield: Hmm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Steven Pressfield: I love that phrase.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：我喜欢这句话。
That's a great one, and it is true.
这是一件伟大的事，也是事实。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
It struck a chord with me, too, because in biology, you learn that you need to understand the names of things.
这也引起了我的共鸣，因为在生物学中，你知道你需要理解事物的名称。
Mitochondria, Golgi apparatus...
线粒体、高尔基体...
You need to know that.
你需要知道这一点。
But those are just names.
但这些只是名字。
But the real magic in understanding biology and being able to internalize it, is understanding things in their verb states, right?
但理解生物学并能够内化它的真正魔力是理解事物的动词状态，对吧？
Understanding how neurons work, not just as a description, but being able to think about that and visualize it.
了解神经元如何工作，不仅仅是作为描述，而是能够思考并将其可视化。
I think it's the same with ourselves.
我想我们自己也一样。
Andrew Huberman: This is why clinical labels can be useful, but understanding when one is in a sort of a place...
Andrew Huberman：这就是为什么临床标签可能有用，但了解一个人何时处于某个地方......
verb actions of gratitude, as opposed to just reciting some gratitude thing.
感恩的动词行为，而不是仅仅背诵一些感恩的事情。
Steven Pressfield: Mm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: It's subtle, but it's meaningful.
Andrew Huberman：这很微妙，但很有意义。
Steven Pressfield: Mm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Anyway, I don't quite know how to articulate it.
Andrew Huberman：无论如何，我不太知道如何表达它。
But DeSteno described this, and the data from his laboratory are showing that when people start to think in terms of faith-based actions...
但德斯特诺描述了这一点，他的实验室的数据表明，当人们开始思考基于信仰的行动时......
For many people, it's through religious scripture-reading, scripture, or whatever it is, but there are many ways to access this...
对于很多人来说，这是通过宗教经文阅读、经文或其他什么方式来获得的，但是有很多方法可以获取这个……
That all sorts of interesting things start to happen at the level of morality, at the level of their own consciousness, at their level of feelings of connectedness that go beyond any kind of simple two-plus-two-equals-four outcome.
各种有趣的事情开始在道德层面、在他们自己的意识层面、在他们的联系感层面发生，超越任何简单的二加二等于四的结果。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: So I totally agree with you.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以我完全同意你的观点。
There's something else.
还有别的事。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: Definitely something else going on.
Andrew Huberman：肯定还有其他事情发生。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: It's exciting.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这很令人兴奋。
I think that...
我认为...
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I know you're not a big drinker.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我知道你酒量不大。
Neither am I.
我也不是。
Maybe that's why you look so young for your age, and so robust.
也许这就是为什么你看起来比同龄人更年轻、更强壮。
Although, I think if I were to wager, I'd say it's also because you're pursuing what you love.
不过，我想如果我打赌的话，我会说这也是因为你在追求你所爱的东西。
You're answering your calling, certainly.
当然，您正在响应您的召唤。
Steven Pressfield: Mm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: That's the never-ending source of dopamine.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这是多巴胺永无休止的来源。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Is it?
是吗？
Andrew Huberman: Absolutely, because it's self-replenishing.
Andrew Huberman：当然，因为它是自我补充的。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Steven Pressfield: That's a great word, self-replenishing.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：这是一个很好的词，自我补充。
Andrew Huberman: I mean, yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我的意思是，是的。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I mean, that's clearly the thing.
Andrew Huberman：我的意思是，这显然是问题所在。
Clearly the thing.
很清楚的事情。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: So, you don't drink much, but nowadays, there's a lot of discussion, and perhaps there always was, about taking things to be able to bridge this plane between the self and this higher order, these messages that we can receive, and can come through us.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：所以，你喝得不多，但现在有很多讨论，也许一直都有，关于如何利用事物来在自我和更高秩序之间架起桥梁，这些信息是我们可以接收的，也可以通过我们传递的。
I know a lot of writers drink a lot.
我知道很多作家都喝很多酒。
There have been a lot of alcoholic writers.
有很多酗酒的作家。
Steven Pressfield: I guess so.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：我想是的。
I guess they do, yeah.
我想他们会的，是的。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: There are a lot of-
安德鲁·休伯曼：有很多——
Steven Pressfield: I hear that anyway.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：无论如何我都听到了。
Not that I know anybody.
并不是说我认识任何人。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
I think historically that was true.
我认为历史上确实如此。
I think a lot of writers have relied on amphetamines and alcohol to get their work done.
我认为很多作家都依赖安非他明和酒精来完成他们的工作。
Steven Pressfield: Mm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And nicotine.
安德鲁·休伯曼：还有尼古丁。
Steven Pressfield: Mm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Nicotine is kind of making a comeback in non-smoke forms, but let's set that aside.
安德鲁·休伯曼：尼古丁以非烟雾形式卷土重来，但我们先把它放在一边。
Steven Pressfield: Mm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: You do this through sheer, good old Marine-style grit, it sounds like.
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：听起来，你是通过纯粹的、古老的海军陆战队风格的勇气来做到这一点的。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah, or kind of surrendering to it.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的，或者说是屈服于它。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: I'm not a meditator, but from what I gather, that's sort of what meditation is about, you know?
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：我不是冥想者，但据我所知，这就是冥想的意义，你知道吗？
So yeah, just sort of...
所以是的，只是有点...
That's how I do it.
我就是这么做的。
I'm not even sure how I do it.
我什至不知道我是如何做到的。
I just put myself at the service of what I'm trying to do, and try to get out of the way as much as I can.
我只是让自己为我想做的事情服务，并尽可能地摆脱困境。
Andrew Huberman: I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, David.
Andrew Huberman：我想稍微休息一下，并向我们的赞助商之一 David 表示感谢。
David makes a protein bar unlike any other.
大卫制作的蛋白质棒与众不同。
It has 28 grams of protein, only 150 calories, and zero grams of sugar.
它含有 28 克蛋白质，仅 150 卡路里，零克糖。
That's right, 28 grams of protein, and 75% of its calories come from protein.
没错，28克蛋白质，它的热量75%来自于蛋白质。
That's 50% higher than the next closest protein bar.
这比第二接近的蛋白质棒高出 50%。
These bars from David also taste amazing.
大卫的这些酒吧味道也很棒。
Right now, my favorite flavor is the new cinnamon roll flavor, but I also like the chocolate chip cookie dough flavor, and I also like the salted peanut butter flavor.
现在，我最喜欢的口味是新的肉桂卷口味，但我也喜欢巧克力饼干面团口味，我也喜欢咸花生酱口味。
Andrew Huberman: Basically, I like all the flavors.
Andrew Huberman：基本上，我喜欢所有口味。
They're all delicious.
它们都很好吃。
Also, big news.
另外，还有大新闻。
David bars are now back in stock.
大卫金条现已重新有货。
They were sold out for several months because they are that popular, but they are now back in stock.
由于它们太受欢迎，它们被抢购一空几个月，但现在又有货了。
By eating a David bar, I'm able to get 28 grams of protein in the calories of a snack, which makes it very easy for me to meet my protein goals of one gram of protein per pound of body weight per day, and to do so without eating excess calories.
通过吃大卫棒，我可以在一份零食的卡路里中获得 28 克蛋白质，这使我很容易实现每天每磅体重 1 克蛋白质的蛋白质目标，并且无需摄入过多卡路里。
Andrew Huberman: I generally eat a David bar most afternoons, and I always keep them with me when I'm away from home or traveling, because they're incredibly convenient to get enough protein.
Andrew Huberman：大多数下午我通常都会吃大卫棒，当我出门在外或旅行时，我总是随身携带它们，因为它们非常方便地获取足够的蛋白质。
As I mentioned, they're incredibly delicious, and given that 28 grams of protein, they're pretty filling for just 150 calories.
正如我提到的，它们非常美味，而且含有 28 克蛋白质，仅需 150 卡路里就可以吃得很饱。
So, they're great between meals as well.
因此，它们在两餐之间也很棒。
If you'd like to try David, you can go to davidprotein.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 David，可以访问 david Protein.com/huberman。
Again, that's davidprotein.com/huberman.
同样，这是 david Protein.com/huberman。
Andrew Huberman: Throughout today's discussion, you've mentioned various physical labor jobs.
Andrew Huberman：在今天的讨论中，您提到了各种体力劳动工作。
I have a very practical question.
我有一个非常实际的问题。
How comfortable is the chair you sit in when you write?
当你写作时，你坐的椅子有多舒服？
Steven Pressfield: Not very comfortable, but I'm only sitting there for a couple hours, so it's okay.
Steven Pressfield：不是很舒服，但我只坐在那里几个小时，所以没关系。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Still?
安德鲁·休伯曼：还是吗？
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: How much do you care that it's not that comfortable?
Andrew Huberman：你有多在意它不那么舒服？
Steven Pressfield: It probably should not be comfortable, you know?
Steven Pressfield：可能不舒服，你知道吗？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: But hopefully, you're in your head, and you're not really noticing that sort of thing.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：但希望你在脑子里，并没有真正注意到这类事情。
Why do you ask that question, Andrew?
你为什么问这个问题，安德鲁？
Andrew Huberman: Because years ago, I went online, and I was looking at some stuff about writers, and there's a very famous writer, I won't mention his name, and he said, "It's very important that you have a super comfortable chair, because otherwise you're going to be..." And you know what my first thought was, even though he's far more successful at writing than I am?
安德鲁·胡伯曼：因为几年前，我上网，我在网上看一些关于作家的东西，有一位非常著名的作家，我不会提到他的名字，他说，“有一把超级舒适的椅子非常重要，因为否则你会......”你知道我的第一个想法是什么，尽管他在写作方面比我成功得多？
I thought, "That's terrible advice."
我想：“这是个糟糕的建议。”
Andrew Huberman: Because if someone were going to ask me how to do, I don't know, like, a really clean protein labeling experiment in the lab, immunohistochemistry, or something like that, I would make sure that they had everything.
Andrew Huberman：因为如果有人问我该怎么做，我不知道，比如在实验室里进行一个真正干净的蛋白质标记实验、免疫组织化学或类似的东西，我会确保他们拥有一切。
I would make sure that the antibodies were fresh out of their...
我会确保抗体是新鲜的......
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: But then, I would not want them to even know that there are now kits that can make certain aspects of the process much easier.
Andrew Huberman：但是，我什至不希望他们知道现在有一些套件可以使该过程的某些方面变得更加容易。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Because the moment you experience that creature comfort, the more painful the good old classic way of doing it is.
安德鲁·休伯曼：因为当你体验到那种物质享受的那一刻，传统的传统做法就会变得更加痛苦。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman: Now, that's not to say I wouldn't embrace new technologies, but this notion of optimization, which sometimes gets thrown at me, is a terrible one with respect to the creative process, because I believe that if you're thinking about, "Oh, am I comfortable or not?
Andrew Huberman：现在，这并不是说我不会接受新技术，但这种优化的概念有时会被抛到我身上，对于创作过程来说是一个可怕的概念，因为我相信如果你在想，“哦，我舒服吗？
Am I in an optimal place to create?"
我是否处于最佳的创造位置？”
Steven Pressfield: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：是啊，是啊，是啊。
Andrew Huberman: We started this podcast in a closet.
Andrew Huberman：我们在壁橱里开始了这个播客。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: A small closet with me, Rob, and the bulldog.
Andrew Huberman：一个小壁橱，里面有我、罗布和斗牛犬。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And we were not thinking about optimizing anything except getting the audio and the visuals just right enough that we could get it out there.
Andrew Huberman：我们没有考虑优化任何东西，除了让音频和视觉效果足够好以便我们可以将其发布出来。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: So, I love, love, love, and I'm not surprised, that you have a slightly uncomfortable chair, and that you don't really care so much.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：所以，我爱，爱，爱，我并不感到惊讶，你有一把有点不舒服的椅子，而且你并不太在乎。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah, I agree completely that that advice was really bad.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的，我完全同意这个建议非常糟糕。
I would go the absolute opposite, and get the most uncomfortable chair you possibly can have.
我会采取完全相反的做法，并获得您可能拥有的最不舒服的椅子。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Do you think those years of physical labor, Marine training, and your morning ritual of going to the gym have allowed your mind to be more durable by virtue of the fact that I think you can tolerate a fair amount of physical discomfort that you probably don't even realize, because you have no comparison, but that most people would probably buckle under, or at least be kind of...
安德鲁·休伯曼：你认为那些年的体力劳动、海军陆战队训练和早上去健身房的仪式让你的思想变得更加持久，因为我认为你可以忍受相当多的身体不适，你可能甚至没有意识到，因为你没有比较，但大多数人可能会屈服，或者至少有点......
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Steven Pressfield: I don't know.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：我不知道。
Andrew Huberman: I feel like you are the opposite of crotchety, you know?
安德鲁·休伯曼：我觉得你是脾气暴躁的反面，你知道吗？
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: A terrible word to be described as, you know?
Andrew Huberman：这是一个可怕的词，你知道吗？
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
You don't see me at home, Andrew, though.
不过你在家里看不到我，安德鲁。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Are you a complainer?
安德鲁·休伯曼：你是一个爱抱怨的人吗？
Steven Pressfield: No, I've really tried.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：不，我真的尝试过。
I never complain at all.
我从不抱怨。
I think it's a real vice.
我认为这是一个真正的恶习。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: It's another form of resistance.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：这是另一种形式的抵抗。
Andrew Huberman: Hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Interesting.
有趣的。
Well, Steven Pressfield, this has been awesome.
嗯，史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德，这太棒了。
Before we conclude, I do want to ask you, what's your most recent book, and what's it about?
在我们结束之前，我想问你，你最近出版的一本书是什么，它是关于什么的？
And if you're willing, maybe give us a little peek behind the veil of what might be coming next.
如果您愿意，也许可以让我们稍微了解一下接下来可能发生的事情。
Steven Pressfield: I have a book coming in next June.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：我明年六月要出版一本书。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah, we were talking about this before.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的，我们之前讨论过这个。
I had a book a few years ago called "A Man at Arms," which is about a recurring character that I have, who I call the one-man killing machine of the ancient world, kind of the Clint Eastwood of the ancient world, Telamon of Arcadia.
几年前，我有一本书，名叫《武装分子》，里面讲的是我反复出现的一个角色，我称他为古代世界的单人杀人机器，有点像古代世界的克林特·伊斯特伍德，阿卡迪亚的特拉蒙。
And that book took place around the time of the crucifixion.
那本书发生在耶稣受难前后。
Fiction.
小说。
The new book is...
新书是...
Steven Pressfield: One of the aspects of Telamon is that he keeps living life after life after life, and he is doomed because of the crimes he committed in the past, to live life after life as a soldier, always as a soldier, always fighting, always killing, always being killed, so on and so forth.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：特拉蒙的一个方面是，他生生世世地活着，因为他过去犯下的罪行，他注定要作为一名士兵生活，永远作为一名士兵，永远战斗，永远杀戮，永远被杀，等等。
So, this new book that's coming out, it's called "The Arcadian," is about his final life.
因此，这本即将出版的新书名为《阿卡迪亚人》，讲述的是他的最后一生。
Steven Pressfield: And I won't say any more than that except that it takes place in the past, and that it's pretty interesting how this all sort of plays out.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：我不会再多说了，除了它发生在过去，而且这一切的发生方式非常有趣。
And it really kind of goes with what we were talking about before about, are there different levels of reality?
这确实与我们之前讨论的内容相符，是否存在不同层次的现实？
And in this case, there definitely are different levels of reality, and this character has to deal with them on the field of justice and payback.
在这种情况下，肯定存在不同层次的现实，而这个角色必须在正义和报复的领域处理它们。
Andrew Huberman: Fantastic.
安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。
Steven Pressfield: Mm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Next June.
安德鲁·休伯曼：明年六月。
Steven Pressfield: Next June, yeah.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：明年六月，是的。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
Steven Pressfield: "The Arcadian."
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：《阿卡迪亚人》。
Andrew Huberman: "The Arcadian." We'll keep our eyes and ears out for that.
安德鲁·休伯曼：《阿卡迪亚人》。我们将密切关注这一点。
Meanwhile, I don't know which book to recommend most, but I love "The War of Art." I love "Do the Work." I mean, there are so many, so I won't ask you...
同时，我不知道最推荐哪本书，但我喜欢《艺术的战争》。我喜欢“做工作”。我的意思是，有这么多，所以我不会问你......
To add just one other, "Gates of Fire." They're all awesome.
再补充一个，“火之门”。他们都很棒。
Steven Pressfield: Mm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Mm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: They're awesome listens, and they're awesome reads.
Andrew Huberman：他们听起来很棒，读起来也很棒。
Steven Pressfield: Mm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: People should definitely check these out.
Andrew Huberman：人们绝对应该检查一下这些。
It's clear you've had an enormous impact on people's creative process, and these books are also very entertaining to listen to.
很明显，您对人们的创作过程产生了巨大的影响，而且这些书也非常有趣。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: It's not a bunch of lists.
Andrew Huberman：这不是一堆列表。
Steven Pressfield: I hope so.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：我希望如此。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, they really are.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，确实如此。
And I'm actually very grateful, I should say, that you didn't have a ton of immediate and big success with your movie, with the "King Kong" movie, or...
我应该说，我实际上非常感激你的电影，《金刚》电影，或者......
And that "The War of Art" took some time, because I do think everything we know about dopamine dynamics tells us that, who knows, maybe you would've not written the subsequent books.
《艺术之战》花了一些时间，因为我确实认为我们对多巴胺动力学的了解告诉我们，谁知道呢，也许你不会写后续的书。
And I look at your work as a body of work, and as a scientist, that's something that I can really appreciate.
我将你的工作视为一个整体，作为一名科学家，这是我真正欣赏的。
Steven Pressfield: Mm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Mm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: A body of work is really what makes for an awesome-
Andrew Huberman：大量的工作确实是造就令人惊叹的——
Steven Pressfield: Ah, thank you.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊，谢谢。
Steven Pressfield: And what you just said about dopamine, I never had thought about it that way.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：你刚才所说的多巴胺，我从来没有这样想过。
That's true.
这是真的。
Andrew Huberman: Oh.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哦。
Steven Pressfield: It's sort of a slow-release dopamine for me over many years.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：这对我来说是多年来缓慢释放的多巴胺。
Andrew Huberman: And, well, it compounds the way that you've experienced your wins.
安德鲁·休伯曼：而且，它会加深你体验胜利的方式。
I mean, oh, I've got stories, and can go on for days about people I knew that had big papers published in "Science" or "Nature," then disappeared completely.
我的意思是，哦，我有一些故事，可以持续几天，讲述我认识的人，他们在《科学》或《自然》上发表过大论文，然后就完全消失了。
They're just gone, they're just completely gone because they couldn't take that the next thing didn't match up to the first thing,
他们就这样消失了，他们完全消失了，因为他们无法接受下一件事与第一件事不匹配，
Steven Pressfield: Mm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: This stuff is real.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这东西是真的。
Steven Pressfield: Mm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: The one-hit-wonder thing happens in every field, and that movie, "My Big Break," really captures it in the realm of acting.
安德鲁·休伯曼：一击奇迹发生在每个领域，而那部电影《我的大突破》确实在表演领域捕捉到了这一点。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Steven Pressfield: You know, a lot of things we're talking about here today, Andrew, they don't teach you in school.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：你知道，我们今天在这里讨论的很多事情，安德鲁，他们不会在学校教你。
Nobody teaches you about, what if you have a one hit?
没有人教你，如果你一击命中怎么办？
How do you handle...
你怎么处理...
Nobody even...
甚至没有人...
That topic doesn't come up at all.
这个话题根本就没有出现。
Or how to handle negative criticism, how to handle positive stuff like that.
或者如何处理负面批评，如何处理诸如此类的正面批评。
What's the idea of "turning pro?" You never learn this.
“转职业”的想法是什么？你永远学不会这个。
Steven Pressfield: And they're all absolutely vital life skills that you hope you encounter mentors along the way that teach you, because it's not taught in school.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：它们都是绝对重要的生活技能，你希望一路上能遇到导师来教你，因为学校里没有教授这些技能。
Andrew Huberman: Well, God bless you for stepping up and being that mentor to so many people, including to me.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：好吧，上帝保佑你挺身而出，成为很多人的导师，包括我。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: You're on that list.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你就在那个名单上。
I swear, you're on that list, and it's not a long list.
我发誓，你就在那个名单上，而且名单并不长。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Steven Pressfield: Now I'm embarrassed, yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：现在我很尴尬，是的。
Andrew Huberman: No, well, for the right reasons, I should say.
Andrew Huberman：不，我应该说，出于正确的原因。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: And thank you for coming here today, and-
Andrew Huberman：感谢您今天来到这里，并且-
Steven Pressfield: Thank you for having me.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：谢谢你邀请我。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, this has been a real pleasure.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，这真的很高兴。
It's-
这是——
Steven Pressfield: We've been talking about this for years.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：我们已经讨论这个问题很多年了。
Andrew Huberman: I know.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我知道。
Andrew Huberman: It was great when we discovered we were neighbors.
Andrew Huberman：当我们发现我们是邻居时，真是太棒了。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I really-
安德鲁·休伯曼：我真的-
Steven Pressfield: I hope we haven't squeezed all the fruit out of the orange here.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：我希望我们没有从这里的橙子中榨出所有的果实。
We can do this again sometime.
我们可以找个时间再做一次。
Andrew Huberman: Oh, absolutely.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哦，当然。
And I'll see you in the gym.
我们健身房见。
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I'll try and get up a little earlier.
Andrew Huberman：我会尝试早点起床。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: That's actually starting after my 50th-
Andrew Huberman：这实际上是在我 50 岁之后开始的——
Steven Pressfield: I'll hang out a little later.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：我稍后再出去玩。
Andrew Huberman: Starting after my 50th birthday, I'm going to be a 5:00 AM riser.
Andrew Huberman：从 50 岁生日之后开始，我将成为早上 5:00 起床的人。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Andrew Huberman: No matter what time I went to sleep.
Andrew Huberman：无论我什么时候睡觉。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Good for you.
对你有好处。
Andrew Huberman: That was something I resolved a few days ago after a different discussion on here.
Andrew Huberman：这是我几天前在此处进行不同讨论后解决的问题。
But I feel a strong antidepressant effect of waking up, and you just get so much more done.
但我感觉到醒来后有很强的抗抑郁作用，而且你会做更多的事情。
Steven Pressfield: Mm.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: But that getting out of bed when you haven't slept quite as much as you would like is brutal, but-
安德鲁·胡伯曼：但是当你没有睡到你想要的那么多时起床是残酷的，但是-
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
Steven Pressfield: Ah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：啊。
It's horrible, isn't it?
太可怕了，不是吗？
Steven Pressfield: Yeah.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：是的。
Steven Pressfield: And as I said to you before, 50 is nothing at all.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德：正如我之前对你说过的，50 岁根本不算什么。
You're just a kid.
你只是个孩子。
You've got another 50-plus years ahead of yourself.
你还有 50 多年的时间。
So, I know when you turn 50, you turn 40, you turn 30, you say, "Oh my God, my life is over." Not so.
所以，我知道当你50岁、40岁、30岁的时候，你会说，“天哪，我的生命结束了。”并非如此。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Steven Pressfield: Take it from me.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：从我这里拿走吧。
I'd give my left arm to be 50 again.
我愿意让我的左臂回到50岁。
You've got it made.
你已经做好了。
Andrew Huberman: Awesome.
安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。
Well, that perhaps is the best birthday gift I could have received.
嗯，这也许是我能收到的最好的生日礼物。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Feels good to hear.
安德鲁·休伯曼：很高兴听到这个消息。
Steven Pressfield: Happy birthday.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：生日快乐。
Andrew Huberman: Thank you.
安德鲁·休伯曼：谢谢。
Please come back again.
请你再回来吧。
Thanks for doing everything you're doing.
感谢你所做的一切。
I know I do not need to tell you this, but please just keep going.
我知道我不需要告诉你这些，但请继续。
Steven Pressfield: Uh-huh.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: We're all benefiting.
Andrew Huberman：我们都受益。
Steven Pressfield: I will if you will.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：如果你愿意的话我会的。
Andrew Huberman: Deal.
安德鲁·休伯曼：成交。
Steven Pressfield: All right.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德：好的。
Andrew Huberman: Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Steven Pressfield.
Andrew Huberman：感谢您参加今天与 Steven Pressfield 的讨论。
To learn more about his work and to find links to his various books, please see the show note captions.
要了解有关他的作品的更多信息并查找他的各种书籍的链接，请参阅演出注释标题。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the "Follow" button on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的“关注”按钮来关注播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review, and you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您可以给我们留下五星级的评论，现在您可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。
Andrew Huberman: Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
Andrew Huberman：另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me, or comments about the podcast, or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comment section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客有意见，或者您希望我为 Huberman Lab 播客考虑嘉宾或主题，请将这些内容放在 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body."
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。
Andrew Huberman: This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.
Andrew Huberman：这本书是我花了五年多时间编写的，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验。
And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation.
它涵盖了从睡眠到锻炼再到压力控制的各个方面的协议，以及与注意力和动机相关的协议。
And of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
当然，我还为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by pre-sale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There, you can find links to various vendors.
在那里，您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Andrew Huberman: Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." And if you're not already following me on social media, I am hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
安德鲁·休伯曼：同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 hubermanlab。
So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlap with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。
Again, it's hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
再说一遍，所有社交媒体平台上都是 hubermanlab。
Andrew Huberman: And if you haven't already subscribed to our "Neural Network Newsletter," the "Neural Network Newsletter" is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries, as well as what we call 'protocols' in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.
Andrew Huberman：如果您还没有订阅我们的“神经网络时事通讯”，那么“神经网络时事通讯”是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要，以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的“协议”，涵盖了从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.
我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。
All of that is available completely zero-cost.
所有这些都是完全零成本的。
Andrew Huberman: You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the "Menu" tab in the top right corner, scroll down to "Newsletter," and enter your email.
Andrew Huberman：您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的“菜单”选项卡，向下滚动到“时事通讯”，然后输入您的电子邮件即可。
And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Steven Pressfield.
再次感谢您参加今天与史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德的讨论。
And last, but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但同样重要的是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。