Neuroscience of Emotions & Tools for Improving Emotion Regulation | Dr. Ralph Adolphs
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
I see somebody come up behind me.
我看到有人来到我身后。
They can see I'm trying to park.
他们可以看到我正在尝试停车。
They can move over.
他们可以移过去。
No. They come right up behind me, go on the horn, and you immediately feel just an immediate anger response, right?
不。他们来到我身后，按喇叭，你立刻就会感到愤怒，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Well, after the ice bath, it's flat.
嗯，冰浴过后，就平坦了。
So there was an immediate automatic downregulation of my autonomic emotional response to a psychological stressor-
因此，我对心理压力源的自主情绪反应立即自动下调——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
...
...
to somebody honking at me, that was trained and generalized from the ice bath.
对于向我按喇叭的人来说，这是从冰浴中训练和概括的。
This is an experiment of one.
这是一个实验。
I'm not claiming this as a published study.
我并不是说这是一项已发表的研究。
But, so I think there's a direct autonomic training component as well in terms of the strength and the automaticity, the ease with which you can regulate emotions, that they can become kind of automatically regulated.
但是，所以我认为在力量和自动性方面也有一个直接的自主训练成分，你可以轻松地调节情绪，它们可以成为一种自动调节。
You don't have to overthink it.
你不必想太多。
It becomes smooth and effortless to some extent, and that's the place where you want to get.
在某种程度上它会变得顺利和轻松，这就是你想要到达的地方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hey, everyone.
嘿，大家。
To celebrate the launch of my new book entitled "Protocols," I'm pleased to share that I'll be hosting three live events very soon.
为了庆祝我的新书《协议》的推出，我很高兴地告诉大家，我很快将举办三场现场活动。
The first live event is in New York City at Radio City Music Hall on September 17th.
第一场现场活动将于 9 月 17 日在纽约无线电城音乐厅举行。
The second event is in Los Angeles at the Dolby Theatre on October 8th.
第二场活动将于 10 月 8 日在洛杉矶杜比剧院举行。
And the third live event is in San Francisco at the Masonic on October 28th.
第三场现场活动将于 10 月 28 日在旧金山共济会举行。
At each of these events, I'll be discussing topics from the book, and my favorite part, taking questions directly from you, the audience.
在每次活动中，我都会讨论书中的主题以及我最喜欢的部分，并直接回答观众的问题。
To get tickets, you can go to hubermanlab.com/events and use the code PROTOCOLS to get early access.
要获取门票，您可以访问 hubermanlab.com/events 并使用代码 PROTOCOLS 抢先体验。
Again, that's hubermanlab.com/events, and use the code PROTOCOLS to get early access to tickets.
同样，这是 hubermanlab.com/events，并使用代码 PROTOCOLS 来提前获取门票。
Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到胡伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Dr. Ralph Adolphs.
今天我的客人是拉尔夫·阿道夫博士。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs is a professor of psychology, neuroscience, and biology at Caltech University, and a world expert in the neurobiology of emotions.
拉尔夫·阿道夫博士是加州理工大学心理学、神经科学和生物学教授，也是情绪神经生物学领域的世界专家。
Today, we discuss what emotions are, how they grow and shrink in our brain and body, and why some emotions seem to recruit our behavior and decision-making, and some simply don't.
今天，我们讨论什么是情绪，它们如何在我们的大脑和身体中增长和收缩，以及为什么有些情绪似乎会影响我们的行为和决策，而有些情绪则不会。
We also discuss where and how emotions are mapped in the body, and we dispel common myths about the brain-body storage of emotions from our past, which is a very commonly discussed topic that frankly, as you'll learn today, many, if not most people, get wrong.
我们还讨论了情绪在身体中的映射位置和方式，并消除了关于我们过去的大脑和身体存储情绪的常见神话，这是一个非常常见的讨论话题，坦率地说，正如您今天将了解到的那样，许多人（如果不是大多数人）都会犯错。
We also discuss why some people are able to observe but not react to their emotions, and what tools may assist in helping you build better emotion regulation.
我们还讨论了为什么有些人能够观察但无法对自己的情绪做出反应，以及哪些工具可以帮助您建立更好的情绪调节。
As you'll soon realize, Dr. Adolphs is uniquely positioned to explain the real neuroscience and psychology of emotions and how to put that information to use.
您很快就会意识到，阿道夫博士具有独特的优势，可以解释情绪的真正神经科学和心理学以及如何利用这些信息。
Today's conversation, therefore, ought to be valuable for people of every age and profession, and for anyone interested in improving their emotional life and understanding of others.
因此，今天的谈话对于各个年龄段和职业的人以及任何有兴趣改善情感生活和对他人的理解的人来说都应该有价值。
And now for my conversation with Dr. Ralph Adolphs.
现在是我与拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士的对话。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs, welcome.
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士，欢迎光临。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Thank you, Andrew.
谢谢你，安德鲁。
Pleasure to be here.
很高兴来到这里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Longtime admirer of your work because you're one of the few people who has studied these things we call emotions, brain states, cognition, and much more in humans.
长期崇拜你的工作，因为你是少数几个研究人类情绪、大脑状态、认知等等的人之一。
There have been others in the field of neuroscience, of course, but I would argue few people have combined a real grounding in neural circuits with an interest in what most people think of as a psychological set of issues in a way that also takes into account the animal data and really the broadest picture of this thing that we call emotions.
当然，神经科学领域还有其他人，但我认为很少有人将神经回路的真正基础与对大多数人认为的一系列心理问题的兴趣结合起来，同时也考虑到动物数据和我们称之为情感的最广泛的图景。
I'm just going to start with a statement of gratitude.
我首先要表达感谢。
Thank you for doing that because it's so easy for people to stimulate a brain area, see an animal or a human behave or speak in a certain way and say, "Oh, this is the brain region for this." And you've long been pushing back on that.
感谢您这样做，因为人们很容易刺激大脑区域，看到动物或人类以某种方式表现或说话，然后说：“哦，这就是这个大脑区域。”而你长期以来一直在反对这一点。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
It's a tall order.
这是一个艰巨的任务。
And one impetus for the work that I've been doing in the book that I co-wrote with David Anderson, the book that I have forthcoming with Princeton University Press, is precisely to do what you just said, is to kind of integrate and pull together findings on emotion from animal studies, findings from social psychology.
我在与大卫·安德森合着的书中所做的工作的一个动力，即我即将与普林斯顿大学出版社出版的书，正是要做你刚才所说的，就是将动物研究中的情感发现和社会心理学的发现整合起来。
Typically, those people in those fields don't talk to one another.
通常，这些领域的人们不会互相交谈。
They do very different studies, have very different methodologies, and so trying to integrate across disciplines that are that far apart to really try and get a sense for what are emotions in a sense that would satisfy psychologists and laypeople about human emotions, but that would also speak to the mechanisms that you can study in mice, for example, or flies, as David Anderson does.
他们所做的研究非常不同，方法论也非常不同，因此试图整合相距甚远的学科，真正尝试并理解什么是情感，这可以让心理学家和外行人对人类情感感到满意，但这也可以说明你可以在老鼠或苍蝇身上研究的机制，就像大卫·安德森所做的那样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So how do you think about emotions, and how do they relate to brain and bodily states?
那么你如何看待情绪，它们与大脑和身体状态有何关系？
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
The basic answer is that I think of emotions as functional states of a particular type.
基本的答案是，我认为情绪是一种特定类型的功能状态。
They should be understood by what they do, their function, rather than how they happen to be constituted in the human brain or differently in an octopus nervous system, or in an AI, which we should talk about.
我们应该通过它们的作用和功能来理解它们，而不是它们在人脑中的构成方式，或者在章鱼神经系统中的构成方式，或者在我们应该讨论的人工智能中的构成方式。
And so the way to situate them is to think of control of behavior in response to particular types of environmental challenges.
因此，定位它们的方法是考虑控制行为以应对特定类型的环境挑战。
So at the sort of simplest level, you would have reflexes.
所以在最简单的层面上，你会有反应。
I put my hand out on a hot stove, or you tap the patellar tendon in my knee, and there's a very rigid behavior that's adaptive, that's very rigid, but just for that particular circumstance.
我把手放在热炉子上，或者你轻敲膝盖上的髌腱，这是一种非常僵化的适应性行为，非常僵化，但只是针对特定情况。
I withdraw my hand, that's a reflex.
我收回手，这是一种条件反射。
At the opposite end, you would have goal-directed general volition and planning, the stuff we do all the time that's extremely flexible.
另一方面，你会有以目标为导向的总体意志和计划，这是我们一直在做的非常灵活的事情。
And so if you have a bear or a tiger, something charging at you, that challenge requires a control of behavior that's intermediate between those two extremes.
因此，如果你有一只熊或一只老虎，有什么东西向你冲来，那么这一挑战就需要控制介于这两个极端之间的行为。
I can't have a reflex for a bear if it's far away, or if it's close, or if it's a rattlesnake or a tiger, or all the different kinds of potential threats out there.
我无法对熊进行反射，无论它是远的还是近的，或者是响尾蛇或老虎，或者所有不同类型的潜在威胁。
Instead, I need something that's more flexible, which emotions are.
相反，我需要更灵活的东西，那就是情感。
So that's the sort of big picture, that emotions are functional states that have particular features or operating characteristics for dealing with certain types of environmental challenges, like running away from a bear.
这就是大局，情绪是具有特定特征或操作特征的功能状态，用于处理某些类型的环境挑战，例如逃离熊。
First of all, I think the question, what is an emotion Is a good and a valid question.
首先，我认为什么是情感这个问题是一个很好的、有效的问题。
It's not an ill-posed question.
这不是一个不恰当的问题。
You occasionally run into the view that, well, emotions don't really exist, or we can't really say anything about them.
你偶尔会遇到这样的观点：情绪并不真正存在，或者我们无法真正谈论它们。
The question is just ill-posed or meaningless.
这个问题只是不恰当或毫无意义。
I don't think that's the case.
我认为情况并非如此。
Paul Griffiths, a philosopher, wrote a book some years ago, I think '97 or so, "What Emotions Really Are," where he first kind of made the claim that, well, they don't really exist.
保罗·格里菲斯 (Paul Griffiths) 是一位哲学家，几年前（我想是 97 年左右）写了一本书，《情感到底是什么》，他在书中首先提出，情感并不真正存在。
And you could see how people come to that conclusion if you survey all the different theories that are out there.
如果你调查了所有不同的理论，你就会看到人们是如何得出这个结论的。
Joel LeDoux or Lisa Feldman Barrett or Paul Ekman, they look pretty different, and so you might come away with the impression, look, even the experts can't agree on what emotions are.
乔尔·勒杜克斯（Joel LeDoux）或丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特（Lisa Feldman Barrett）或保罗·埃克曼（Paul Ekman），他们看起来非常不同，所以你可能会留下这样的印象，看，即使是专家也无法就情绪是什么达成一致。
The words we have for emotions predate modern science, so it's just a confused concept.
我们对情感的称呼早于现代科学，所以它只是一个令人困惑的概念。
I don't think that's the case.
我认为情况并非如此。
I think there's room for revision, but I think everybody kind of knows what emotions are, and I think it deserves a straight answer that science should provide.
我认为还有修改的空间，但我认为每个人都知道情绪是什么，而且我认为科学应该提供一个直接的答案。
I think the question is well-posed enough to admit of an answer.
我认为这个问题已经提出得足够好，足以承认一个答案。
And then how could you start getting to an answer?
那么你怎样才能开始得到答案呢？
So let's just start sort of from the simplest case, would be to list some examples.
因此，让我们从最简单的情况开始，列出一些示例。
So you could say, well, emotions are anger, fear, disgust.
所以你可以说，情绪是愤怒、恐惧、厌恶。
You could list specific examples that are uncontentious, I would hope, where pretty much everybody agrees, okay, these are examples of emotions, right?
我希望你可以列出一些没有争议的具体例子，几乎每个人都同意，好吧，这些都是情绪的例子，对吧？
You could do the same if I asked you, what's a car, right?
如果我问你什么是汽车，你也可以这样做，对吗？
And you would say, well, it's a Mercedes and a Honda and a Toyota.
你可能会说，好吧，这是一辆奔驰、一辆本田和一辆丰田。
Or if I asked you what's a bird, and you would say it's a robin and a hummingbird and an eagle.
或者如果我问你什么是鸟，你会说它是知更鸟、蜂鸟和鹰。
So you could list examples.
所以你可以列出例子。
That's not an answer yet.
这还不是答案。
What you would then want to say is, well, what is it in virtue of which these examples, what makes them all instances of an emotion?
那么你想说的是，这些例子凭什么而成为一种情感的实例？
What do fear, anger, et cetera, share in common?
恐惧、愤怒等有什么共同点？
What features do they have that makes them emotions?
他们有什么特征让他们情绪激动？
Just like what the cars or the bird species have in common that makes them cars or birds.
就像汽车或鸟类的共同点使得它们成为汽车或鸟类一样。
And so David Anderson and I did that in our book a decade ago or so, now, "The Neuroscience of Emotion," where we listed some features of emotions that helps to answer the question and sort of get a handle on what is it that these all share in common.
因此，大卫·安德森和我在大约十年前的书《情感的神经科学》中就做到了这一点，我们列出了情感的一些特征，这些特征有助于回答这个问题，并在某种程度上掌握这些特征的共同点。
I elaborate on that and have a longer list and really go into detail on, okay, so what are the features of emotions in my forthcoming book.
我对此进行了详细阐述，并列出了一个更长的清单，并且在我即将出版的书中详细介绍了情绪的特征。
Maybe I'll just list a couple to go through them quickly.
也许我会列出几个以便快速浏览。
So one feature of emotions is priority, which is that they can take over your behavior.
因此，情绪的一个特征是优先性，即它们可以接管你的行为。
That they share in common with reflexes.
它们与反射有共同点。
If I put my head on a hot stove, I can't help but withdraw it.
如果我把头放在热炉子上，我就会情不自禁地缩回来。
And if you're suddenly confronted by the bear, you can't help but run away or crawl into a ball or whatever your adaptive behavior is.
如果你突然遇到熊，你会情不自禁地逃跑或爬成一个球或任何你的适应性行为。
So they have priority and interrupt your behavior, which is something that the Nobel laureate Herbert Simon already pointed out in a paper back in the '50s or '60s, that they're interrupt mechanisms of a certain kind.
因此它们具有优先权并会中断你的行为，这是诺贝尔奖获得者赫伯特·西蒙在上世纪 50 年代或 60 年代的一篇论文中已经指出的，它们是某种中断机制。
If you're just going about your business and normal goal-directed behavior, you always need to be monitoring for the bear or the tiger, the predator that's out there, and if you detect that, emotions have to take over or you're dead.
如果你只是在做你的事情和正常的目标导向行为，你总是需要监视熊或老虎，那里的掠食者，如果你发现了，情绪必须接管，否则你就死定了。
So priority is sort of one.
所以优先级是其中之一。
That doesn't distinguish emotions from reflexes or fixed action patterns.
这并不能区分情绪与反应或固定的行为模式。
They share that.
他们分享这一点。
Another one is valence, that psychologists ubiquitously mention, which is sort of the simplest dimension along which you can organize emotions in terms of their similarity.
另一个是心理学家经常提到的效价，这是一种最简单的维度，你可以根据情绪的相似性来组织情绪。
So anger, disgust, fear, you might say, are more similar to one another than either of those is with, say, happiness.
因此，你可能会说，愤怒、厌恶、恐惧彼此之间的相似度比其中任何一个与幸福之间的相似度更高。
There's some similarity structure, some emotions clustered together, some are further apart.
有一些相似的结构，一些情绪聚集在一起，一些情绪相距更远。
And the simplest dimension, which is one that Charles Darwin already mentioned in his book, "The Expression of the Emotion in Man and Animals," he called it principle of antithesis, is valence, which is approach or avoid, pleasant or unpleasant, this basic valence dimension.
最简单的维度，查尔斯·达尔文在他的著作《人和动物的情感表达》中已经提到过，他称之为对立原理，是效价，即接近或回避，愉快或不愉快，这是基本的效价维度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are there any neutral emotions?
有没有中性的情绪？
I ask this because your colleague at Caltech, who I respect tremendously, Marcus Meister, once wrote a review where he said, a good way to think about sensory systems and maybe neural systems of all kind is that they're encoding for yum, yuck, or meh.
我问这个问题是因为你在加州理工学院的同事马库斯·梅斯特（Marcus Meister）是我非常尊敬的人，他曾经写过一篇评论，他说，思考感觉系统以及也许所有类型的神经系统的一个好方法是，它们正在编码“yum”、“yuck”或“meh”。
And the meh is a very interesting one.
嗯，这是一个非常有趣的事情。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just like an animal or-
就像动物一样或者——
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
including us, can go forward, backward, or stay put.
包括我们在内，可以前进、后退或原地踏步。
Now, we can go side to side too, of course.
当然，现在我们也可以并肩作战了。
Those are just different versions of forward in this context.
这些只是在这种情况下转发的不同版本。
And I sometimes wonder, because algorithms are repurposed across different neural systems, if there is indeed a meh emotion, or maybe the emotion is meh.
我有时会想，因为算法在不同的神经系统中被重新利用，是否确实存在一种无聊的情感，或者也许这种情感就是无聊。
I don't want to take us down a philosophical path, but does that make sense?
我不想让我们走上哲学之路，但这有意义吗？
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
It makes sense.
这是有道理的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because as long as we're talking about valence-
因为只要我们谈论价态-
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
anger and happiness, clearly, sad and happy, okay, opposite ends of the spectrum.
愤怒和快乐，显然，悲伤和快乐，好吧，光谱的两端。
But what was it, apathy?
但那是什么，冷漠？
Is there a state of prioritization of doing nothing?
是否存在一种什么也不做的优先状态？
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
It's a really good question.
这是一个非常好的问题。
I think when you list these features, like priority, valence, I'll get to some others, one question is, which of these are necessary?
我想当你列出这些特征时，比如优先级、价数，我会想到其他一些特征，一个问题是，其中哪些是必要的？
Like a package of all of these features that emotions have, do you need all of them, or are some of them sufficient?
就像情感所具有的所有这些功能的集合一样，您是否需要所有这些功能，或者其中一些功能就足够了？
And I think the answer is some of them are sufficient, but there's some that are necessary.
我认为答案是有些是足够的，但有些是必要的。
I think priority is necessary.
我认为优先是必要的。
I think valence may be not, as you were alluding to.
我认为化合价可能不是，正如您所暗示的那样。
I could imagine there's still valence, but it's at a neutral region of the spectrum.
我可以想象仍然有化合价，但它处于光谱的中性区域。
But then there's other ones, which are the ones that David Anderson has studied in particular in the hypothalamus in mice, and I think goes into great detail in the podcast that you had with him, which are scalability and temporal persistence.
但还有其他的问题，即大卫·安德森（David Anderson）特别研究了小鼠下丘脑的问题，我认为您在与他一起观看的播客中对此进行了详细介绍，即可扩展性和时间持久性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
And so scalability would be that an emotion can scale in intensity.
因此，可扩展性就是情绪的强度可以扩展。
One of the best examples of that is for the case of fear and the bear coming at you.
最好的例子之一就是恐惧和熊向你袭来的情况。
So typically, it would scale from anxiety and monitoring, there's the bear sort of out there, to fear, where you might run away or hide.
因此，通常情况下，它会从焦虑和监视（外面有熊）到恐惧，你可能会逃跑或躲藏。
To panic.
惊慌失措。
So that's your threat imminence scalability.
这就是您迫在眉睫的可扩展性威胁。
And that's something where emotions are different now from reflexes, because reflexes are binary.
这就是情绪现在与反应不同的地方，因为反应是二元的。
It's all or nothing.
要么全有，要么全无。
I either pull my hand away or nothing.
我要么把手抽开，要么什么也不做。
The knee jerks or not.
膝跳反射与否。
There's not some scalable package in there.
那里没有一些可扩展的包。
And then temporal persistence is even more something that's essential to emotions and speaks to their function, which is you have this internal state, let's say, of aggression or of fear that has to last some time because the bear might be around for some time.
然后，时间持久性对于情绪来说甚至是至关重要的，并说明了它们的功能，也就是说，你有这种内部状态，比如说，侵略或恐惧，它必须持续一段时间，因为熊可能会存在一段时间。
So you might be running away or you might be attacking in anger.
所以你可能会逃跑，或者你可能会愤怒地攻击。
Those are phasic little bouts, but the actual internal state that is motivating those persists for quite a long time.
这些都是阶段性的小发作，但激发这些的实际内部状态会持续相当长的时间。
So temporal persistence is really important and it allows the person or the animal to incorporate lots and lots of information that's coming in and to have a motivational state that would be suited for that kind of environmental challenge.
因此，时间持久性非常重要，它使人或动物能够吸收大量传入的信息，并具有适合这种环境挑战的动机状态。
It's not like a hot plate where if you pull your hand away, you're done.
它不像一个热板，只要你把手拿开，你就完成了。
The bear is out there and it might come back, it might still be lurking in the forest, so you better be afraid for some period of time.
熊就在那里，它可能会回来，它可能仍然潜伏在森林里，所以你最好害怕一段时间。
David Anderson has studied this a lot in terms of what neural circuits, what properties of neurotransmitters in the brain could actually implement persistence.
大卫·安德森（David Anderson）对大脑中哪些神经回路、神经递质的哪些特性可以真正实现持久性进行了很多研究。
Would you have really slow neurotransmitters like neuropeptides, for instance, which is what he studied.
例如，你是否有像神经肽这样缓慢的神经递质，这就是他研究的内容。
But my colleagues at the University of Iowa actually did a really cool study in humans that showed the temporal persistence of emotions independent of memory.
但我在爱荷华大学的同事实际上对人类进行了一项非常酷的研究，表明情绪的时间持续性与记忆无关。
So here's a study.
这是一项研究。
They took patients with amnesia, so these were four or five people who had medial temporal lobe hippocampal damage.
他们收治了失忆症患者，其中有四五个人患有内侧颞叶海马损伤。
They live in a time window of maybe a minute or so.
他们生活的时间窗口可能只有一分钟左右。
I used to study these patients when I first started as a postdoc at the University of Iowa with Damasio.
当我第一次在爱荷华大学与达马西奥一起担任博士后时，我曾经研究过这些患者。
And you can talk to them, they can process information, but if you go to the toilet and you come back five minutes later, they would stand up and shake your hand, introduce themselves to you because they would have no recollection of having met you before.
你可以和他们交谈，他们可以处理信息，但如果你去厕所，五分钟后回来，他们会站起来和你握手，向你介绍自己，因为他们不会记得以前见过你。
So just no memory.
所以只是没有记忆。
Very strong anterograde amnesia, as it's called.
正如所谓的，非常强烈的顺行性遗忘症。
So they had those end controls.
所以他们有那些终端控制。
They showed them really sad movie clips in all cases.
他们向他们展示了所有情况下非常悲伤的电影片段。
The patients can understand and watch the movie clip.
患者可以理解并观看电影片段。
They get really sad and weepy.
他们变得非常悲伤和哭泣。
Right after watching these sad movie clips, everybody rates how sad do you feel.
看完这些悲伤的电影片段后，每个人都会评价你的悲伤程度。
The amnesic patients feel really sad.
失忆症患者感到非常悲伤。
The controls feel really sad.
控件感觉真的很悲伤。
You wait five minutes.
你等五分钟。
You then ask the controls, "Well, how sad do you feel?" And they say, "Yeah, I still feel a little bit of sadness in me because I remember having seen the movie." And if you ask them, "Why do you feel sad?" They say, "Well, because you showed me the sad movie five minutes ago." The amnesic patients, you ask, "How do you feel?" They say, "I feel really sad and I don't know why.
然后你问控制器：“那么，你感觉有多悲伤？”他们说，“是的，我仍然感到有点悲伤，因为我记得看过这部电影。”如果你问他们：“你为什么感到悲伤？”他们说：“嗯，因为你五分钟前给我看了一部悲伤的电影。”失忆症患者，你会问：“你感觉怎么样？”他们说：“我感到非常难过，但我不知道为什么。
I have no idea." And you ask them, "Do you remember seeing a movie?" They say, "Nope." There's no declarative memory of the movie, but there's still the temporal persistence of the sadness.
我不知道。”你问他们：“你还记得看过一部电影吗？”他们说：“不。”没有关于这部电影的陈述性记忆，但悲伤的时间仍然存在。
It lasts some time.
它会持续一段时间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
So I thought this was a really cool study because it showed very clearly that there is temporal persistence in emotions, and sadness probably has one of the longest time constants, as we know from personal experience, but it's separate from just declarative memory.
所以我认为这是一项非常酷的研究，因为它非常清楚地表明情绪存在时间持续性，正如我们从个人经验中知道的那样，悲伤可能具有最长的时间常数之一，但它与陈述性记忆不同。
It's not that you're remembering that the bear is there.
这并不是说你记得那只熊在那里。
That's going on too.
这也在发生。
But independently of that, the emotion state has its own temporal persistence.
但与此无关的是，情绪状态有其自身的时间持续性。
The state has to last some time.
这种状态必须持续一段时间。
And again, that's something that reflexes don't have.
再说一遍，这是反射所不具备的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
It just goes straight through.
它只是直接通过。
There's no temporal persistence.
没有时间上的持久性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Helix Sleep.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 Helix Sleep。
Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to your unique sleep needs.
Helix Sleep 生产根据您独特的睡眠需求定制的床垫和枕头。
Now, I've spoken many times before on this and on other podcasts about the fact that getting a great night's sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance.
现在，我之前曾多次在这个播客和其他播客上谈到这样一个事实：睡个好觉是心理健康、身体健康和表现的基础。
When we aren't getting great sleep on a consistent basis, everything suffers.
当我们不能持续获得良好的睡眠时，一切都会受到影响。
And when we are sleeping well and enough, our mental health, physical health, and performance in all endeavors improve markedly.
当我们睡眠充足且良好时，我们的心理健康、身体健康和所有努力的表现都会显着改善。
Now, the mattress you sleep on makes a huge difference in the quality of sleep that you get each night.
现在，您所睡的床垫会对您每晚的睡眠质量产生巨大影响。
How soft it is or how firm it is all play into your comfort and need to be tailored to your unique sleep needs.
它的柔软度或硬度都会影响您的舒适度，并且需要根据您独特的睡眠需求进行定制。
If you go to the Helix website, you can take a brief two-minute quiz and it will ask you questions such as, do you sleep on your back, your side, or your stomach?
如果你访问 Helix 网站，你可以做一个两分钟的简短测验，它会问你一些问题，比如你是仰卧、侧卧还是俯卧？
Maybe you know, maybe you don't.
也许你知道，也许你不知道。
Do you tend to run hot or cold during the night?
你晚上容易感到热还是冷？
Things of that sort.
诸如此类的事情。
You answer those questions and Helix will match you to the ideal mattress for you.
您回答这些问题，Helix 就会为您匹配理想的床垫。
For me, that turned out to be the Dusk, D-U-S-K, mattress.
对我来说，这就是 Dusk、D-U-S-K 床垫。
I've been sleeping on a Dusk mattress for more than four years now, and it's been far and away the best sleep that I've ever had.
我已经在 Dusk 床垫上睡了四年多了，这无疑是我睡过的最好的睡眠。
If you'd like to try Helix, you can go to helixsleep.com/huberman, take that two-minute sleep quiz, and Helix will match you to a mattress that's customized for you.
如果您想尝试 Helix，可以访问 helixsleep.com/huberman，参加两分钟的睡眠测验，Helix 将为您匹配专为您定制的床垫。
Right now, Helix is giving up to 27% off their entire site.
目前，Helix 整个网站提供高达 27% 的折扣。
Helix has also teamed up with TrueMed, which allows you to use your HSA, FSA dollars to shop Helix's award-winning mattresses.
Helix 还与 TrueMed 合作，允许您使用 HSA、FSA 美元购买 Helix 屡获殊荣的床垫。
Again, that's helixsleep.com/huberman to get up to 27% off.
再次强调，helixsleep.com/huberman 提供高达 27% 的折扣。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Rorra.
今天的节目也是罗拉给我们带来的。
Rorra makes what I believe are the best water filters on the market.
我认为 Rorra 制造的是市场上最好的滤水器。
It's an unfortunate reality, but tap water often contains contaminants that negatively impact our health.
这是一个不幸的现实，但自来水通常含有对我们的健康产生负面影响的污染物。
In fact, a 2020 study by the Environmental Working Group estimated that more than 200 million Americans are exposed to PFAS chemicals, also known as forever chemicals, through drinking of tap water.
事实上，环境工作组 2020 年的一项研究估计，超过 2 亿美国人通过饮用自来水接触到 PFAS 化学物质（也称为永久化学物质）。
These forever chemicals are linked to serious health issues such as hormone disruption, gut microbiome disruption, fertility issues, and many other health problems.
这些永久性化学物质与严重的健康问题有关，例如激素紊乱、肠道微生物组破坏、生育问题和许多其他健康问题。
The Environmental Working Group has also shown that over 122 million Americans drink tap water with high levels of chemicals known to cause cancer.
环境工作组还表明，超过 1.22 亿美国人饮用的自来水含有大量已知致癌化学物质。
It's for all these reasons that I'm thrilled to have Rorra as a sponsor of this podcast.
出于所有这些原因，我很高兴 Rorra 作为这个播客的赞助商。
I've been using the Rorra countertop system for almost a year now.
我使用 Rorra 台面系统已经快一年了。
Rorra's filtration technology removes harmful substances, including endocrine disruptors and disinfection byproducts, while preserving beneficial minerals like magnesium and calcium.
Rorra 的过滤技术可去除有害物质，包括内分泌干扰物和消毒副产物，同时保留镁和钙等有益矿物质。
It requires no installation or plumbing.
它不需要安装或管道。
It's built from medical-grade stainless steel, and its sleek design fits beautifully on your countertop.
它由医用级不锈钢制成，其时尚的设计非常适合您的台面。
In fact, I consider it a welcome addition to my kitchen.
事实上，我认为它对我的厨房来说是一个受欢迎的补充。
It looks great, and the water is delicious.
看起来很棒，水也很美味。
If you'd like to try Rorra, you can go to roorra.com/huberman and get an exclusive discount.
如果您想尝试 Rorra，可以访问 roorra.com/huberman 并获得独家折扣。
Again, that's Rorra, R-O-R-R-A, .com/huberman.
再说一遍，这是 Rorra，R-O-R-R-A，.com/huberman。
It is striking to me that maybe 30 years ago or so, there was discussion about whether animals have emotions.
让我惊讶的是，大约三十年前，人们就开始讨论动物是否有情感。
Based on these criteria, priority, valence, scalability, and persistence, is it generally agreed upon that animals have emotions?
基于这些标准，优先级、效价、可扩展性和持久性，人们是否普遍认为动物有情感？
I believe they do because I love my dog and other animals, and I-
我相信他们会这样做，因为我爱我的狗和其他动物，而且我-
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
want to believe that.
想要相信这一点。
But as scientists, if we step back, do they meet the criteria for emotions that you're setting up here for us?
但作为科学家，如果我们退后一步，他们是否符合您为我们设定的情感标准？
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Yes.
是的。
So if you have those criteria, those functional criteria, and you would add one or two others, many states in animals, and certainly the states that we would ordinarily interpret as emotions in our pets, in our dogs, cats.
因此，如果你有这些标准，那些功能标准，并且你会添加一两个其他标准，动物的许多状态，当然还有我们通常将宠物、狗、猫解释为情绪的状态。
By the way, I loved your dog-
顺便说一句，我爱你的狗-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, Strong-
噢，坚强——
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
...
...
just out in the waiting room there.
就在候诊室里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, he's just hanging out.
是的，他只是闲逛。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
They would meet those criteria, and they would have functional emotions.
他们会满足这些标准，并且会产生功能性情绪。
We should talk more about this.
我们应该更多地谈论这一点。
There's also the claim now from Anthropic that large language models have functional emotions as well.
Anthropic 现在还声称大型语言模型也具有功能性情感。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's so wild.
那太狂野了。
We have to return to that, because I think it kind of boggles the mind.
我们必须回到这一点，因为我认为这有点令人难以置信。
How could a machine have emotions?
机器怎么可能有情感呢？
But-
但是——
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Right.
对。
Well, but again, these are functionally defined emotions, and I think there's no problem assigning to AI, to some extent, and certainly to many animals, those functional emotions.
好吧，但同样，这些是功能性定义的情绪，我认为在某种程度上，将这些功能性情绪分配给人工智能，当然也包括许多动物，是没有问题的。
Where it gets complicated is that in us, and also by assumption in animals, I have no doubt, they also have conscious experiences of emotions.
事情变得复杂的是，在我们身上，以及在动物身上的假设，我毫不怀疑，他们也有情感的有意识体验。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
And most people take the conscious experience of the emotion as the ground truth for the emotion.
大多数人将情绪的有意识体验作为情绪的基本事实。
Emotions without conscious experiences of emotions sound like an oxymoron.
没有有意识的情绪体验的情绪听起来像是一个矛盾的说法。
It's like you can't have that.
就好像你不能拥有那样。
The conscious experience is the emotion.
有意识的体验就是情感。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Which is what William James said, which is what Joe LeDoux says, and I think it's implicitly there across essentially every psychological theory, is the assumption that emotions really are types of conscious experiences.
这是威廉·詹姆斯所说的，也是乔·勒杜克斯所说的，我认为基本上所有心理学理论都隐含着这样的假设：情绪确实是意识体验的类型。
Which I think is the intuition, that if I ask you, how do you know?
我认为这是直觉，如果我问你，你怎么知道？
What's the ground truth, right?
基本事实是什么，对吗？
How do you know you're having an emotion?
你怎么知道你有情绪？
You would say, "Because it's a certain type of conscious experience because of how it feels." And if I asked you more specifically, how do you know it's sadness versus anger versus fear, you would say, "Because of how they feel.
你会说，“因为它是一种特定类型的意识体验，因为它的感觉如何。”如果我更具体地问你，你怎么知道这是悲伤、愤怒还是恐惧，你会说，“因为他们的感受。
They feel different."
他们感觉不一样。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
And so we take the conscious experience, our own introspective access to the conscious experience, as the ground truth.
因此，我们将意识体验，即我们自己对意识体验的内省性访问，作为基本事实。
That has a lot of problems associated with it, deep philosophical problems, but just practically, it has two big problems that I think science should avoid.
这有很多与之相关的问题，深刻的哲学问题，但实际上，它有两个我认为科学应该避免的大问题。
One is, it gets really problematic to know whether or not animals have emotions, because we don't know how to test whether or not they have conscious experiences.
一是，了解动物是否有情感确实是个问题，因为我们不知道如何测试它们是否有意识体验。
I have no doubt that they do, it's just that there's no scientific way to test currently.
我毫不怀疑他们确实如此，只是目前没有科学的方法来测试。
So we should have different criteria.
所以我们应该有不同的标准。
And the other question is, if you tie emotion to the conscious experience of emotion, that is you equate, you conflate emotions with feelings, well, then you're not studying emotions, you're studying consciousness.
另一个问题是，如果你将情感与情感的有意识体验联系起来，也就是说，你将情感与感受混为一谈，那么你就不是在研究情感，而是在研究意识。
We spoke about Christof Koch earlier.
我们之前谈到过克里斯托夫·科赫。
Great respect for people that are studying consciousness, but I don't want to study consciousness.
非常尊重研究意识的人，但我不想研究意识。
That's too hard.
那太难了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
And there's lots and lots of debates and disagreements.
还有很多很多的辩论和分歧。
So if we can avoid that and study emotions in the absence of needing to study conscious experiences of emotions, we can move forward with the science, which is what every other discipline does.
因此，如果我们能够避免这种情况，并在不需要研究情绪的有意识体验的情况下研究情绪，我们就可以推动科学前进，这也是其他学科所做的。
So if you're a vision researcher, right, so you study vision.
因此，如果您是一名视觉研究人员，那么您就会研究视觉。
You study consciousness?
你研究意识吗？
No, you don't need to.
不，你不需要。
I mean, you can, but there's a huge amount of work that people do studying vision and how that works in the brain, studying memory, any other cognitive process without needing to study conscious experiences.
我的意思是，你可以，但是人们做了大量的工作来研究视觉及其在大脑中的工作原理，研究记忆，以及任何其他认知过程，而不需要研究有意识的体验。
They're typically accompanied in humans, and if you talk to the lay person on the street and just say, "I'm a vision researcher," they take you to be studying the conscious experience of seeing, perhaps.
它们通常伴随着人类，如果你在街上与外行人交谈并只是说：“我是一名视觉研究员”，它们也许会带你去研究视觉的有意识体验。
Or if you say, "I'm a memory researcher," they take you to be studying the conscious experience of recollection.
或者，如果你说，“我是一名记忆研究员”，他们就会带你去研究记忆的有意识体验。
But scientifically, most people working in those fields don't study consciousness.
但从科学角度来看，大多数从事这些领域工作的人并不研究意识。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
And it's perfectly valid to study vision and memory in horseshoe crabs or aplysia, where nobody has any claims about consciousness.
研究鲎或海兔的视觉和记忆是完全有效的，因为没有人声称它们有意识。
We should do the same thing with emotion, and then we can have an integrated science across species that can move forward without needing to tackle the difficult problem of consciousness.
我们应该对情感做同样的事情，然后我们就可以拥有跨物种的综合科学，它可以在不需要解决意识难题的情况下向前发展。
Again, yes, for sure, we and other animals have conscious experiences of emotions, and that's very important, but we also have conscious experiences of seeing and memory.
再说一次，是的，当然，我们和其他动物都有情感的有意识体验，这非常重要，但我们也有视觉和记忆的有意识体验。
As a scientific discipline, we should separate the conscious experience from the process, from the emotion.
作为一门科学学科，我们应该将意识体验与过程、情感分开。
And that's the way we make progress.
这就是我们取得进步的方式。
That's one of the main arguments that David and I had in our book, and that I reiterate in the forthcoming book.
这是大卫和我在书中提出的主要论点之一，我在即将出版的书中重申了这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
At risk of taking us in a philosophical direction, I'd like to actually ask a biological, psychological question.
冒着把我们带向哲学方向的风险，我想实际上问一个生物学、心理学问题。
Given these criteria, priority, valence, scalability, and persistence, but really focusing mainly on priority.
考虑到这些标准、优先级、效价、可扩展性和持久性，但实际上主要关注优先级。
I think all of us have had the experience of an emotion coming on, but not in its overtaking maximal form.
我想我们所有人都曾经历过某种情绪的出现，但并不是以最强烈的形式出现。
Like okay, we feel ourselves getting annoyed, and we can observe the emotion growing.
就像好吧，我们感到自己很恼火，并且我们可以观察到情绪的增长。
The arousal state is familiar to us.
觉醒状态是我们所熟悉的。
We understand.
我们明白。
Let's assume in this example that we understand why it's happening.
在这个例子中，我们假设我们理解为什么会发生这种情况。
Maybe you're in line at the store, and the person ahead of you is taking everybody's time by doing something that's really unnecessary and kind of obnoxious to us in that moment.
也许你在商店排队，排在你前面的人正在浪费大家的时间，做一些实际上没有必要并且让我们当时感到讨厌的事情。
And so our frustration is rising, and we are observing the emotion, even though the emotion is us, right?
因此，我们的挫败感正在上升，我们正在观察情绪，即使情绪就是我们，对吗？
It's within us.
它就在我们内心。
And then at some point, we might blurt something out, or we might feel compelled that we have to just say, "Excuse me, could this maybe be taken care of?"
然后在某些时候，我们可能会脱口而出一些话，或者我们可能会觉得不得不说，“对不起，这件事可以解决吗？”
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
But you have some control over it.
但你可以控制它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You have some control.
你有一定的控制权。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there's this almost like running together of two consciousnesses.
这几乎就像两种意识一起运行。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's two of us in there at the same time, observing self, observing the outside world, and then at some point, the prioritization gets to the point where we just do something.
我们两个人同时在那里，观察自我，观察外部世界，然后在某个时刻，优先级达到我们只做某事的程度。
And sometimes it's a decision, and sometimes it overtakes us.
有时这是一个决定，有时它超越了我们。
Now, at the opposite extreme, we've all observed, and you can just go on X, the social media platform, and For some reason, the algorithm likes to serve up a lot of examples of people like on planes losing it, people going unhinged.
现在，在另一个极端，我们都观察到，你可以继续使用社交媒体平台 X，出于某种原因，该算法喜欢提供很多人们的例子，比如在飞机上失去它，人们精神错乱。
I like people just completely melting down, and it's very, in our language, hypothalamic, right?
我喜欢人们完全崩溃，用我们的语言来说，这就是下丘脑，对吧？
And so people are drawn to that.
所以人们对此很感兴趣。
It's like-
这就像——
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
I have an antidote to those people.
我有对付那些人的解药。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
They should take ice baths.
他们应该洗冰浴。
I can tell you more.
我可以告诉你更多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, well, listen.
哦，好吧，听着。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
They should take ice baths.
他们应该洗冰浴。
I think this helps.
我认为这有帮助。
Seriously.
严重地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, ice baths, yeah.
好吧，冰浴，是的。
Let's definitely talk about ice baths and ultra races, because you were training for one.
我们肯定要谈谈冰浴和超级比赛，因为你正在为此进行训练。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
No, but I think what you said is exactly right, and extremely important for humans, and probably unique to humans as opposed to other animals, which is that we can be conscious of and monitor our own emotions, and by doing so, we can regulate them to some extent.
不，但我认为你说的完全正确，对人类来说极其重要，而且可能是人类相对于其他动物所独有的，就是我们可以意识到并监控自己的情绪，通过这样做，我们可以在一定程度上调节它们。
So emotion regulation and control and monitoring emotion, being aware of what emotion you have, those two go hand in hand.
因此，情绪调节和控制、监控情绪、意识到自己的情绪，这两者是相辅相成的。
And your Stanford colleague, James Gross, spawned this huge field in the '90s, I guess when it started, of emotion regulation that is now huge.
你在斯坦福大学的同事詹姆斯·格罗斯（James Gross）在 90 年代开创了情绪调节这个巨大的领域，我想是在它开始的时候，现在这个领域已经非常庞大了。
I just finished my term as co-editor of this journal, "Affective Science", and I would say about a quarter or so, or a third of the submissions are about emotion regulation.
我刚刚结束了《情感科学》杂志联合编辑的任期，我想说大约四分之一或三分之一的投稿是关于情绪调节的。
It is so important in humans, and most of pathologies and difficulties about emotions are not about the emotion per se, it's about our ability or disability to control them, to regulate them.
它对人类非常重要，大多数关于情绪的病态和困难与情绪本身无关，而是与我们控制它们、调节它们的能力或无能力有关。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
If you don't mind, because of your understanding of emotions and states and neuroscience, but also your experience as a human in the world, has anything you've learned changed the way that you watch your emotions grow, decide when to step in, when not to step in?
如果你不介意的话，因为你对情绪、状态和神经科学的理解，还有你作为一个人在世界上的经历，你学到的任何东西是否改变了你观察情绪增长、决定何时介入、何时不介入的方式？
You don't seem like an impulsive person, but most people aren't.
你看起来不像是一个冲动的人，但大多数人都不是。
We're not talking about pathology here.
我们这里讨论的不是病理学。
And I'll cede this question by saying I have a few friends who were in Tier One Special Operations, and that's high risk, high consequence work.
我将放弃这个问题，说我有几个朋友曾在一级特种部队工作，这是高风险、高后果的工作。
We've had Alex Honnold on the podcast, high risk, high consequence endeavors.
我们的播客中有亚历克斯·霍诺德（Alex Honnold），高风险、高后果的努力。
And they all say the same thing, which are that emotions cloud logical judgment.
他们都说同一件事，那就是情绪掩盖了逻辑判断。
So they're somehow far from emotions or their emotions don't get prioritized.
所以他们在某种程度上远离情绪，或者他们的情绪没有被优先考虑。
But of course, all of these people that come to mind have healthy marriages now, healthy families.
当然，我想到的所有这些人现在都拥有健康的婚姻和健康的家庭。
They're loving people.
他们是有爱心的人。
They have anger.
他们有愤怒。
They have-
他们有——
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
emotions, but they've sort of categorized emotions as cloud judgment in the professional or peak performance context.
情绪，但他们将情绪归类为专业或最佳绩效环境中的云判断。
Therefore, they don't allow them to be prioritized.
因此，他们不允许他们被优先考虑。
Sounds a little bit robotic, sounds a little bit mechanical, quote unquote, on the spectrum.
在频谱上，听起来有点机器人，听起来有点机械。
People will say these things, right?
人们会说这些话，对吗？
But in some ways, provided they allow themselves to be emotional and let emotions, quote unquote, take over in the right context, that's the ideal circumstance, right?
但在某些方面，只要他们允许自己情绪化，并让情绪在正确的环境中占据主导地位，那就是理想的情况，对吗？
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what do you know that has impacted the way that you think about emotion regulation that perhaps people could consider, if not benefit from?
那么，您知道什么影响了您对情绪调节的看法，也许人们可以考虑情绪调节（如果不能从中受益的话）？
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I think it's a mixture.
我认为这是一个混合物。
On the one hand, you absolutely need emotions.
一方面，你绝对需要情感。
If you have no emotions, as we know from Antonio Damasio's original work in his book, "Descartes' Error", which he put out just as I was starting as a postdoc in Iowa, 1994, I think.
如果你没有情感，正如我们从安东尼奥·达马西奥（Antonio Damasio）在他的著作《笛卡尔的错误》（笛卡尔的错误）中知道的那样，我想，当我1994年在爱荷华州开始担任博士后时，他出版了这本书。
If you have massive frontal lobe lesions that make it the case that you're no longer emotionally responding to stimuli, the consequences are devastating, which is that you cannot make complex decisions in your life.
如果你的额叶有大量病变，导致你不再对刺激做出情绪反应，那么后果是毁灭性的，那就是你无法在生活中做出复杂的决定。
You can't organize your life.
你无法安排自己的生活。
You're not motivated to take the right path through life, because you don't feel one way or the other about the different options that are available.
你没有动力去走正确的人生道路，因为你对可用的不同选择没有一种或另一种感觉。
So it's clear that not having emotions is very bad, and certainly if you were out facing the bear, which may not happen to too many people these days, that would be very bad.
所以很明显，没有情绪是非常糟糕的，当然，如果你出去面对熊（现在可能不会发生在太多人身上），那会非常糟糕。
On the other hand, being able to regulate them and control them is definitely a human skill that's very important and that helps you a lot.
另一方面，能够调节和控制它们绝对是一项非常重要的人类技能，对你有很大帮助。
The first part is what you were talking about first earlier, which is the ability to monitor your emotions, to identify your emotions.
第一部分就是你之前谈到的，就是监控你的情绪、识别你的情绪的能力。
I think Lisa Feldman Barrett actually first did the main work on this.
我认为丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特实际上首先做了这方面的主要工作。
It's a topic called emotional granularity.
这是一个叫做情感粒度的话题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
It's like how fine a grain can you conceptualize and be aware of your own emotions?
这就像你能概念化并意识到自己的情绪有多细？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
And then once you're aware of them, you can bring various emotion regulation strategies, mostly cognitive reappraisal type of strategies, to bear on the emotion and thereby, to some extent, control your emotions.
一旦你意识到它们，你就可以采取各种情绪调节策略，主要是认知重评类型的策略，来影响情绪，从而在某种程度上控制你的情绪。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How important is it to use language to provide that granularity?
使用语言提供这种粒度有多重要？
I've certainly experienced feeling a bunch of things around a particular scenario, and if you can't separate out the elements, it can feel overwhelming.
我确实经历过围绕特定场景感受到很多事情，如果你无法区分这些元素，就会感到不知所措。
People always say if you can name the emotion, but I find that a little tricky because sometimes it's not one emotion.
人们总是说如果你能说出这种情绪的名称，但我发现这有点棘手，因为有时它不是一种情绪。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a bunch of things.
这是一堆事情。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's confusion.
这是混乱。
It's frustration.
这是挫败感。
Are those the same thing?
这些是同一件事吗？
I don't know.
我不知道。
And I think many people, myself included, sometimes it just feels like too much, not because the emotion is so big, but because it's such a tangled jungle of where there isn't really language to disentangle it.
我认为很多人，包括我自己，有时感觉太多了，不是因为情感如此强烈，而是因为它就像一个错综复杂的丛林，没有真正的语言可以解开它。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Yeah, I don't think you need to put it into language, and I think people's strategies vary.
是的，我认为你不需要把它用语言表达出来，而且我认为人们的策略各不相同。
Some people think in words, some people think in pictures.
有些人用文字思考，有些人用图片思考。
Most people are a mixture.
大多数人都是混合体。
And if you look at different languages, if you're French or German-speaking like me, bilingual, we have different words for different emotions.
如果你看看不同的语言，如果你像我一样说法语或德语，双语，我们有不同的词来表达不同的情感。
But you need some sense of the concept, which I think the concepts for emotions are pretty much universal across languages.
但你需要对这个概念有一定的了解，我认为情感的概念在各种语言中几乎都是通用的。
So there are all these different examples of emotion words from different languages, like schadenfreude-
因此，不同语言中的情感词有很多不同的例子，比如幸灾乐祸——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
...
...
is one that people know now.
是人们现在所知道的。
Joy at another person's misfortune from the German.
德国人对他人的不幸感到高兴。
Gigil, I think is often trumpeted as another example.
我认为吉吉尔经常被吹捧为另一个例子。
I forget what the culture is, but this is the emotion you feel if something is just unbearably cute.
我忘记了文化是什么，但这就是当某件事物可爱得令人难以忍受时你所感受到的情感。
There's a great book, Tiffany Watt Smith has a book, I think it's called "The Book of Human Emotions", which is basically like a little dictionary, an entry from A to Z of all the different emotion words in different languages.
有一本很棒的书，蒂芙尼·瓦特·史密斯有一本书，我想它叫《人类情感之书》，它基本上就像一本小字典，从头到尾收录了不同语言中所有不同情感词的条目。
But the fact that we don't have a word for gigil or for schadenfreude in English, you perfectly will have the concept.
但事实上，我们在英语中没有表示“吉吉尔”或“幸灾乐祸”的词，所以你完全会有这个概念。
I just described it to you.
我刚刚向你描述过。
You have no problem understanding what the emotion is.
你可以毫无问题地理解这种情绪是什么。
And so I think as long as you have some concept which need not be put into words, some way to think about and differentiate the different emotions that are going on in you, that gives you a purchase on your ability to To some extent, evaluate them and say, "This is an emotion I want," or, "This is an emotion that I don't want."
所以我认为，只要你有一些不需要用语言表达的概念，某种方式来思考和区分你内心正在发生的不同情绪，这就会让你有能力在某种程度上评估它们并说，“这是我想要的情绪”，或者，“这是我不想要的情绪。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
And then to act on it through various strategies, cognitive reappraisal, for example, or acceptance, depending on what your strategy is.
然后通过各种策略（例如认知重新评估或接受）采取行动，具体取决于您的策略是什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, the psychologists seem to disagree here because many people, some who've been on this podcast, all of whom are experts, will say, "If you don't allow yourself to feel the emotion, then it grows." And other people will say, "Well, if you focus on something, then it grows." And, this is where I think neuroscience can be of great help, because probably both things are true, and it depends on the context.
是的，心理学家似乎不同意这一点，因为很多人，一些参加过这个播客的人，都是专家，会说，“如果你不允许自己感受到这种情绪，那么它就会增长。”其他人会说：“好吧，如果你专注于某件事，它就会成长。”而且，这就是我认为神经科学可以提供很大帮助的地方，因为可能这两件事都是真的，而且取决于具体情况。
But-
但是——
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah, that's exactly right
是的，完全正确
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
maybe this is a good opportunity to talk about dynamic attractor states, which is, and I don't throw out that language to confuse people, but there is this idea in neuroscience.
也许这是一个谈论动态吸引子状态的好机会，我不会抛出这种语言来迷惑人们，但神经科学中有这个想法。
If you and I both talk about this cup, and I slide it forward, and then we start looking at it, and more and more brain circuits are going to be devoted to it.
如果你和我都谈论这个杯子，我把它向前滑动，然后我们开始观察它，越来越多的大脑回路将致力于它。
We could spend several hours.
我们可以花几个小时。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not a very interesting conversation.
这不是一次很有趣的谈话。
But if we do that about an emotion we feel because of something somebody said to us at work or online, I think we're all familiar with the idea that we can go down these rabbit holes within our own mind.
但如果我们因为某人在工作中或网上对我们说的话而感受到某种情绪，我想我们都熟悉这样的想法：我们可以走进自己头脑中的这些兔子洞。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Absolutely, yes.
绝对是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's a very dangerous way to live.
这是一种非常危险的生活方式。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
It is.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And just knowing that it exists perhaps can be helpful.
只要知道它的存在也许就会有所帮助。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because it's almost like if you go far enough down a path, it's like a horror movie.
因为这几乎就像如果你沿着一条路走得足够远，它就像一部恐怖电影。
If you go far enough down a path, it's very hard to extract yourself.
如果你在一条路上走得太远，你就很难摆脱困境。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Oh, absolutely.
哦，绝对是。
I think cognitive reappraisal or any other sort of complex reappraisal strategy for emotions, it is a double-edged sword.
我认为认知重新评估或任何其他类型的复杂情绪重新评估策略，它是一把双刃剑。
And it's trainable.
而且它是可训练的。
It's as you say, if I really focus on, okay, now I'm starting to feel sad.
正如你所说，如果我真的专注于，好吧，现在我开始感到悲伤。
I really don't want to feel sad.
我真的不想感到悲伤。
Well, the more I think about it, the sadder I get, right?
嗯，我越想越难过，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Or same with anxiety.
或者与焦虑相同。
Some emotions are probably more prone to going down this rabbit hole than others.
有些情绪可能比其他情绪更容易陷入这个兔子洞。
But again, it's a trainable skill that there are other ways of dealing with it where you can kind of just stop that process from going down at all.
但同样，这是一项可训练的技能，还有其他方法可以处理它，您可以阻止该过程完全停止。
You want to stop it at the earliest front end.
你想尽早在前端停止它。
One quick answer to the question of what's the most successful strategy is the earlier you can stop that process, the better.
对于什么是最成功的策略这个问题，一个快速的答案是越早停止这个过程就越好。
And so in the first place, don't get yourself into a situation where you're going to be anxious, or guilty, or sad, or whatever emotion you want to avoid.
因此，首先，不要让自己陷入焦虑、内疚、悲伤或任何你想避免的情绪的境地。
So situational avoidance, just in terms of structuring your environment, would be one strategy.
因此，就构建环境而言，情境回避将是一种策略。
And then once you're in it, I think it's idiosyncratic to a large extent, so you would have to figure out what works for you, but it's definitely trainable.
一旦你进入其中，我认为它在很大程度上是特殊的，所以你必须弄清楚什么对你有用，但它绝对是可以训练的。
Two parts are trainable.
两个部分是可训练的。
One is the specific strategy, so you can do cognitive reappraisal without overthinking it and going down the rabbit hole and actually feeling the emotion even more, and the other one is just the strength and automaticity of control that you have.
一是具体的策略，这样你就可以进行认知重新评估，而不必过度思考，也不必陷入兔子洞，更多地实际感受情感，而另一个就是你所拥有的控制的强度和自动性。
Which brings me to the ice baths.
这让我想到了冰浴。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Shall I briefly talk about the ice baths?
我可以简单谈谈冰浴吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Please.
请。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Because this is relevant, actually.
因为这实际上是相关的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Please.
请。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
So I started doing these a while back.
所以我不久前就开始做这些。
One of my former colleagues, Justin Feinstein, who now runs a float clinic on Maui, I forget how it came about, but we were talking about floating ice baths, and he mentioned you, and he mentioned Wim Hof.
我的一位前同事贾斯汀·范斯坦 (Justin Feinstein) 现在在毛伊岛经营一家漂浮诊所，我忘记了它是怎么来的，但我们正在谈论漂浮冰浴，他提到了你，还提到了维姆·霍夫 (Wim Hof)。
He said, "Take a look at these guys." And I saw Wim swimming in some frozen lake.
他说：“看看这些人。”我看到维姆在结冰的湖里游泳。
It looked kind of interesting.
看起来有点有趣。
Anyway, so I started doing ice baths some time ago.
不管怎样，所以我不久前就开始洗冰浴了。
They weren't that popular yet back then.
那时它们还没有那么受欢迎。
And now my wife bought on Amazon a horse watering trough or some big thing.
现在我的妻子在亚马逊上买了一个马饮水槽或一些大东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That works.
那行得通。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Insulated it.
对其进行了绝缘处理。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yep.
是的。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Put it on the porch.
把它放在门廊上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a lot safer than being out on a lake, too.
这也比在湖上安全得多。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Put it on the porch.
把它放在门廊上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We'll talk about that later.
我们稍后再讨论这个问题。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
And I get these 40-pound ice bags every week.
我每周都会收到这些 40 磅重的冰袋。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
They know me very well at Joe's Ice up there.
他们在乔冰场很了解我。
Every time I go in, they say, "Hey, boss.
每次我进去，他们都会说：“嘿，老板。
Having a good party again tonight, eh?" I'm like, "Yep." I said, "I need a lot of ice." But so this is the interesting thing.
今晚又要开开心心的聚会了，嗯？”我说：“是的。”我说：“我需要很多冰。”但这就是有趣的事情。
When I start first week, it is terrible.
当我开始第一周时，情况很糟糕。
Super painful.
超级痛苦。
You go in, it's like a whole body cold pressor task, right?
你进去了，就像是全身冷压任务吧？
Second week, your breathing goes up, your heart rate goes up, but gradually, and kind of with some automaticity to it, now I go into the ice bath, immediately my heart rate goes down, my breathing goes down.
第二周，你的呼吸加快，心率加快，但逐渐地，并且有点自动，现在我进入冰浴，我的心率立即下降，我的呼吸也下降。
I get super relaxed.
我变得超级放松。
So this is the interesting part apropos of emotion regulation.
所以这就是情绪调节的有趣部分。
It generalizes for me.
它对我来说是普遍的。
This is an experiment of one, but for me, it generalizes.
这是一个实验，但对我来说，它具有概括性。
So previously, prior to the ice bath, driving around Pasadena in, I don't know, in the last year or two, this seems to have risen somehow.
所以之前，在冰浴之前，在帕萨迪纳周围开车，我不知道，在过去的一两年里，这个数字似乎有所上升。
I'm trying to park on the street.
我想把车停在路边。
There's a lane next to me.
我旁边有一条巷子。
I have my signal out.
我的信号已经出来了
There's a parking space.
有停车位。
It's clear what I'm trying to do.
我想做什么很清楚。
I see somebody come up behind me.
我看到有人来到我身后。
They can see I'm trying to park.
他们可以看到我正在尝试停车。
They can move over.
他们可以移过去。
No. They come right up behind me, go on the horn.
不，他们就在我身后，按喇叭。
And you immediately feel just an immediate anger response, right?
你立刻就会感到愤怒，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Well, after the ice bath, it's flat.
嗯，冰浴过后，就平坦了。
So there was an immediate automatic downregulation of my autonomic emotional response to a psychological stressor-
因此，我对心理压力源的自主情绪反应立即自动下调——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
...
...
somebody honking at me, that was trained and generalized from the ice bath.
有人对我按喇叭，这是在冰浴中训练和概括的。
It's an experiment of one.
这是一个实验。
I'm not claiming this as a published study.
我并不是说这是一项已发表的研究。
But so I think there's a direct autonomic training component as well, in terms of the strength and the automaticity, the ease with which you can regulate emotions, that they can become kind of automatically regulated.
但我认为也有一个直接的自主训练成分，就强度和自动性而言，你可以轻松地调节情绪，它们可以自动调节。
You don't have to overthink it.
你不必想太多。
It becomes smooth and effortless to some extent.
在某种程度上，它变得顺畅且毫不费力。
And that's the place where you want to get.
这就是你想要到达的地方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've known Wim a long time, and although I sometimes, in my opinion, unfairly get tacked to the deliberate cold exposure, as we call it, thing a little too much, because we talk about many things on this podcast, not just that, I do find it very useful.
我认识 Wim 很长时间了，尽管我认为有时我会不公平地接受故意的寒冷暴露，正如我们所说的那样，有点太多了，因为我们在这个播客上谈论了很多事情，而不仅仅是这个，但我确实发现它非常有用。
And years ago, my lab had collaborations with the special operations community, and they'll tell you that one of the reasons it's such a wonderful tool is it's so reliable.
几年前，我的实验室与特种作战界进行了合作，他们会告诉你，它是如此出色的工具的原因之一是它是如此可靠。
You always get an increase in adrenaline, norepinephrine in the brain, and to some extent, and this might surprise you, perhaps not, you get often reductions in cortisol, which is kind of paradoxical.
你的大脑中的肾上腺素、去甲肾上腺素总是会增加，在某种程度上，这可能会让你感到惊讶，也许不会，你的皮质醇经常会减少，这是有点矛盾的。
But when people practice-
但当人们练习时——
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's very reliable, and provided it's not so cold, or it's an open lake where you can-
它非常可靠，只要天气不太冷，或者是一个开放的湖，你可以-
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
It's reliable and super efficient.
它可靠且超级高效。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And safe.
而且安全。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
I mean-
我的意思是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Unless you're doing it in a lake, or you're doing hyperventilation first.
除非你是在湖里做，或者你先过度换气。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Five minutes after a shower, it's extremely efficient.
淋浴后五分钟，效率极高。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
So I do it.
所以我就这么做了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a lot.
就这么多了。
That's good.
那挺好的。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Well, after five minutes, you can look at my body mass index.
嗯，五分钟后，你可以看看我的体重指数。
After five minutes-
五分钟后——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
...
...
I get hypothermic.
我体温过低。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
So I can't stay in very long.
所以我不能在里面呆太久。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a good long while, even in a cold shower.
即使是洗冷水澡，这也已经是很长一段时间了。
And there is now evidence of improved resilience to subsequent stressors of the sort that you described.
现在有证据表明，对您所描述的后续压力源的恢复能力有所提高。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there are some okay papers.
还有一些还不错的论文。
I think it's a wonderful tool.
我认为这是一个很棒的工具。
Especially for this buffering this immediate stress or anger response.
特别是为了缓冲这种即时的压力或愤怒反应。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very powerful.
非常强大。
Before we went on mic, we were talking about a different type of stressor, which is the ultramarathons that you're currently training for, a 100-mile race.
在我们开始麦克风之前，我们讨论了另一种类型的压力源，即您目前正在训练的超级马拉松，即 100 英里的比赛。
Which is, by the way, super impressive even to just to shoot for it.
顺便说一句，即使只是为了拍摄它，也令人印象深刻。
I know you've done others-
我知道你也做过别人-
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Well, trying-
嗯，尝试着——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Trying
尝试
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
...
...
is the operative word here.
是这里的关键词。
I'm trying.
我想。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Well, I have confidence in you.
嗯，我对你有信心。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Talk to me in two months-
两个月后跟我说话——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes, I will
是的，我会的
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
...
...
and let me tell you if it worked or not
让我告诉你它是否有效
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I have confidence in you.
我对你有信心。
You're going to finish this 100-mile race.
你将完成这场 100 英里的比赛。
But we were talking about something that I think is relevant to bring up now, which is, you were describing how at some points during these races, you just feel like complete garbage.
但我们正在谈论一些我认为现在需要提出的问题，那就是，你描述了在这些比赛中的某些时刻，你感觉自己完全是垃圾。
But then you start to feel better.
但随后你开始感觉好多了。
And so then the next time you feel like complete garbage, you have the cognitive knowledge-
所以下次当你感觉自己完全是垃圾时，你就拥有了认知知识——
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that you felt terrible, then better again, and so you're starting to integrate over longer periods of time.
你感觉很糟糕，然后又好起来，所以你开始在更长的时间内融入。
So here's another example of emotion regulation, but over much longer timescales.
这是情绪调节的另一个例子，但时间尺度要长得多。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a little bit harder to access for most people than a cold shower.
对于大多数人来说，这比洗冷水澡有点困难。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
No, but I think this is one reason, there are many reasons, but if there's one reason that I love these ultramarathons and sort of identify as an ultra runner, even though I didn't do it for decades and I'm just now getting back into it, because of that nonlinearity.
不，但我认为这是一个原因，有很多原因，但如果有一个原因，我喜欢这些超级马拉松并认为自己是一名超级跑者，尽管我已经几十年没有这样做了，但由于这种非线性，我现在才重新开始参加它。
You have these major ups and downs.
你有这些重大的起伏。
And a sort of mantra that ultrarunning has co-opted is relentless forward momentum, but the sort of psychological equivalent is just relentless optimism.
超级跑步运动所采用的一种口号是不懈的前进动力，但与之相对应的心理则是不懈的乐观。
Like optimism in the face of adversity.
就像面对逆境时的乐观态度。
You have to just keep that mindset.
你必须保持这种心态。
And everybody there's like that.
那里的每个人都是这样。
You come around like mile 40, mile 50, mile 60, you come around some curve and you look and feel like crap.
你跑了 40 英里、50 英里、60 英里，过了某个弯，你看起来、感觉起来都很糟糕。
People go, "Looking good!" Nobody says, "Oh, looks like you're not going to make it." Nobody says that, right?
人们会说：“看起来不错！”没有人说：“哦，看来你活不成了。”没人这么说吧？
So everybody is super positive.
所以每个人都非常积极。
You're hanging in there, and it is really hard, and you've just been going downhill.
你要坚持下去，这真的很困难，而且你一直在走下坡路。
Your knees are shot.
你的膝盖中枪了。
You have blisters.
你有水泡。
You've been vomiting.
你一直在呕吐。
Super tired, and you extrapolate, and you think, "This is not going to work." But if you refuse to give up, doesn't always work, but about half the time or so, it levels out, and it starts going back up again, and you keep going.
超级累，你推断，然后你想，“这行不通。”但如果你拒绝放弃，并不总是有效，但大约有一半的时间，它会趋于平稳，然后又开始回升，你就继续前进。
I mean, you feel wrecked at mile 50.
我的意思是，跑到 50 英里时你会感到失控。
I feel wrecked, or earlier, mile 30.
我感觉很崩溃，或者说更早，30 英里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I wouldn't know.
我不知道。
I've never run 50 miles.
我从来没有跑过50英里。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
And so trying to think forward and say, "Wow, I have to do this over again?" This is not fathomable.
所以试着向前思考并说：“哇，我必须再做一次吗？”这是深不可测的。
So it's a really interesting exercise in not giving up and being able to do something that you think is impossible to do.
所以这是一个非常有趣的练习，让你不放弃并能够做你认为不可能做的事情。
For that matter, all of your listeners would think it's impo-- If any of your listeners went running with me, they would conclude two things.
就此而言，你所有的听众都会认为这是不恰当的——如果你的任何听众和我一起跑步，他们会得出两件事。
One is they're faster than I am, and two, I'm not going to be able to do 100 miles, which means if I actually finished the 100 miles, all of you would be able to do so as well, which I think is true.
一是他们比我快，二是我无法跑完 100 英里，这意味着如果我真的跑完 100 英里，你们所有人也能做到，我认为这是事实。
I think anybody can do it, anybody who's basically healthy, if they only wanted to, which is the key, could actually do it.
我认为任何人都可以做到，任何基本健康的人，只要他们愿意，这是关键，实际上都可以做到。
So it's just a really interesting exercise.
所以这只是一个非常有趣的练习。
It's only 30 hours.
时间只有30个小时。
Well, only, but it's only 30 hours.
嗯，只是，但只有30个小时。
It's not like years.
这不像几年。
How hard can it be?
这有多难？
Well, it's hard, but it's doable.
嗯，这很难，但这是可行的。
It's definitely doable.
这绝对是可行的。
And so it's just in that sweet spot of something that seems impossible and is just unbelievably hard, but doable.
因此，它正处于看似不可能、难以置信但可行的事情的最佳点。
And that's attractive somehow.
这在某种程度上很有吸引力。
If you can do it, which of course doesn't happen all the time.
如果你能做到的话，这当然不会一直发生。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, and I don't know if there are any data on this, but for people that have lived through really hard things and come out better or have pushed themselves to deliberately do hard things of the sort that you're describing, I do think that the memory of that can recall our body and brain's ability to lean into other hard things.
是的，我不知道是否有这方面的数据，但对于那些经历过真正困难的事情并变得更好的人，或者强迫自己故意做你所描述的那种困难的事情的人，我确实认为，这种记忆可以回忆起我们的身体和大脑处理其他困难事情的能力。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
I think so.
我想是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It must be the case.
一定是这样的。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't know of any good experiments on that, but what's that, post-traumatic resilience, I guess they call it?
我不知道这方面有什么好的实验，但这是什么，我猜他们称之为创伤后复原力？
Some people come out of very difficult circumstances.
有些人是从非常困难的环境中走出来的。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe they do, quote unquote, the work they need to or not, and they just say, "Okay, I'm better for life because I'm out of it." Other people carry the wounds of that forward in a way that their psychological and sometimes their physical health is a downward trajectory.
也许他们确实做了，无论他们需要或不需要的工作，他们只是说，“好吧，我的生活更好，因为我已经摆脱了它。”其他人则带着这样的创伤继续前行，他们的心理健康状况，有时甚至是身体健康状况都呈下降趋势。
It's a very interesting thing about how should we conceptualize pain and pain ending.
关于我们应该如何概念化痛苦和痛苦的结束，这是一件非常有趣的事情。
Like some people seem to live-
就像有些人似乎活着——
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the discomfort of the pain having even happened.
甚至在疼痛发生时感到不适。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
You can certainly persevere and overcome severe adversity if it's time-limited.
如果有时间限制，你当然可以坚持下去并克服严重的逆境。
And I think just your own sort of belief in yourself and your capability to overcome adversity, as you were saying, is one important component.
正如您所说，我认为您对自己的信念以及克服逆境的能力是一个重要组成部分。
Another one is something like gratitude or awe.
另一种是感恩或敬畏之类的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
And you get to appreciate and just value just the fact that I'm here talking to you.
你会欣赏并珍惜我在这里与你交谈的事实。
I'm actually grateful and feeling some sense of awe right now-
我现在其实很感激，也有一些敬畏感——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
...
...
at just existing.
在刚刚存在的时候。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
And so getting to that point where every morning you wake up, and you have this sense of, I guess, gratitude and awe or some combination of those emotions, I think that's a really valuable thing to carry out of all of this.
因此，每天早上你醒来时，我想你都会有一种感激和敬畏的感觉，或者这些情感的某种组合，我认为这是一件非常有价值的事情来实现这一切。
And it takes time to kind of accumulate, but I like living that way.
这需要时间来积累，但我喜欢这样的生活。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I want to get back to the emotion system, but I feel inclined to mention, we had Dacher Keltner on the podcast-
我想回到情感系统，但我想提一下，我们的播客中有 Dacher Keltner——
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Well, he's worked on awe
嗯，他一直致力于敬畏
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and he defined it so beautifully.
他对它的定义如此美妙。
He said it's when we bring our attention from a small spatial scale to a large spatial scale.
他说，当我们将注意力从较小的空间尺度转移到较大的空间尺度时。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or from large to small.
或者从大到小。
But then during the course of our discussion, he added that this is also true in the time domain.
但在我们讨论的过程中，他补充说，在时域中也是如此。
So when we live our life day to day, we start to feel kind of lost in time.
因此，当我们日复一日地生活时，我们开始感到有点迷失在时间中。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And awe becomes less common.
敬畏变得不那么常见了。
But when perhaps we run a 100-mile race across 30 hours, we realize how much can happen in 30 hours.
但当我们跑完 30 小时的 100 英里比赛时，我们就会意识到 30 小时内可以发生多少事情。
One could say, oh, well then you finish the race, and the rest of life seems trivial.
人们可能会说，哦，好吧，那么你就完成了比赛，剩下的生活就显得微不足道了。
But it seems the opposite is true.
但事实似乎恰恰相反。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That we realize that time is this very elastic thing, at least in our minds, and all of a sudden we have awe for the fact that we have so many days of life to live forward.
我们意识到时间是一个非常有弹性的东西，至少在我们看来是这样，突然间我们对我们还有那么多日子可以活下去这一事实感到敬畏。
It's very interesting, and it almost speaks to the ice bath again.
很有趣，差点又和冰浴说话了。
Like you have this very compressed, stressful experience That gives you that gap, that gap between stimulus and response that seems very hard to access unless we subject ourselves to these kinds of things.
就像你有这种非常压缩、压力很大的经历，这给你带来了刺激和反应之间的差距，除非我们让自己屈服于这些事情，否则似乎很难接近。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
No, and I think that capability, people think chimpanzees maybe can feel awe, but I think it's a uniquely, at least as we have it, it's a uniquely human emotion and it's based on a broad sort of metacognitive ability we have, which is to detach our conscious experience from the here and now and do mental time travel.
不，我认为这种能力，人们认为黑猩猩可能会感到敬畏，但我认为这是一种独特的，至少我们拥有的，这是一种独特的人类情感，它基于我们拥有的广泛的元认知能力，即将我们的意识体验与此时此地分离并进行心理时间旅行。
It's pretty derivative to the need to understand other people.
这是对理解他人的需要的衍生。
So I could put myself into your shoes right now.
所以我现在可以设身处地为你着想。
I can do that.
我能做到。
I could imagine sitting where you're sitting and I'm seeing Ralph Adolphs here.
我可以想象坐在你坐的地方，我看到拉尔夫·阿道夫斯在这里。
I could imagine zooming around and adopting another person's perspective in space.
我可以想象在太空中放大并采用另一个人的视角。
We certainly zoom around in time and reminisce stuff from the past, imagine things in the future, and I think awe is like that, too.
我们当然会放大时间，回忆过去的事情，想象未来的事情，我认为敬畏也是如此。
We adopt a different perspective that's not just tied to the here and now, which I think is probably a crucial ability that distinguishes the nature of conscious experience in humans, which is that we have some control over it.
我们采取不同的视角，不仅仅与此时此地联系在一起，我认为这可能是区分人类意识体验本质的关键能力，即我们对它有一定的控制力。
I can simulate what it's like to be you.
我可以模拟你的感受。
I can imagine being in the past or in the future.
我可以想象过去或未来。
I can zoom out broadly when I'm feeling awe, and I think animals are more just stuck with whatever the senses are delivering to them right now.
当我感到敬畏时，我可以把视野拉远，而且我认为动物更多地只是停留在现在传递给它们的感官上。
That's the content of their conscious experience.
这就是他们的意识体验的内容。
We can use it flexibly, and that's, I think, why we can plan and write novels and fiction and think about most of the time, right?
我们可以灵活地使用它，我想这就是为什么我们可以计划和写小说和小说并在大部分时间里思考，对吗？
If I ask you what's in your consciousness, what are you thinking about, it's not stuff that's in front of you.
如果我问你你的意识里有什么，你在想什么，那不是你面前的东西。
You're daydreaming.
你在做白日梦。
You're all kinds of places, and that really gives the human mind the power that distinguishes it from any other animals and it's the reason we have everything that we have that makes us so different.
你身处各种各样的地方，这确实赋予了人类思维与任何其他动物区分开来的力量，这也是我们拥有使我们如此与众不同的一切的原因。
So awe, I think, is an example of a uniquely human emotion that derives from that ability-
因此，我认为，敬畏是源自这种能力的人类独特情感的一个例子——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
...
...
to adopt a vast point of view or a point of view that's not tied to just whatever the senses are delivering to you.
采取一种广泛的观点或一种与感官所传递给你的任何东西无关的观点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。
I'm excited to share that AG1 has just launched their newest formulation, AG1 Pro.
我很高兴与大家分享，AG1 刚刚推出了他们的最新配方 AG1 Pro。
AG1 Pro takes the clinically backed AG1 formula, which is a blend of vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and adaptogens, and adds three important new ingredients, creatine monohydrate, calcium HMB, and zinc carnosine.
AG1 Pro 采用经过临床支持的 AG1 配方，该配方是维生素、矿物质、益生菌和适应原的混合物，并添加了三种重要的新成分：一水肌酸、HMB 钙和肌肽锌。
Each serving has five grams of creatine monohydrate to support muscle strength and performance, as well as brain health, calcium HMB to support muscle recovery and reduce muscle breakdown, and zinc carnosine to support and improve the lining of your gut.
每份含有 5 克一水肌酸，可支持肌肉力量和性能，以及大脑健康；HMB 钙可支持肌肉恢复并减少肌肉分解；肌肽锌可支持和改善肠道内壁。
All three of these ingredients have compelling science to support them, and therefore, I love seeing them added to the existing AG1 formula.
所有这三种成分都有令人信服的科学支持，因此，我喜欢看到它们添加到现有的 AG1 配方中。
As most of you know, I've been taking AG1 every day for nearly 14 years now.
正如你们大多数人所知，我每天服用 AG1 已有近 14 年了。
I started taking it long before I even knew what a podcast was.
早在我知道什么是播客之前我就开始服用它了。
It's a great product, and it's now made even better with the new AG1 Pro formula.
这是一款很棒的产品，现在新的 AG1 Pro 配方让它变得更好。
If you would like to try AG1 Pro, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1 Pro，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 获取特别优惠。
AG1 is giving away a free bottle of omega-3 coenzyme Q10 with your first subscription.
AG1 首次订阅即可免费赠送一瓶 omega-3 辅酶 Q10。
Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a free bottle of omega-3 coenzyme Q10 with your first AG1 subscription.
同样，请访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman，首次订阅 AG1 即可免费获得一瓶 omega-3 辅酶 Q10。
As long as we're talking about assessing the emotions or the perspective of another, what are some favorite experiments, either yours or others in the field, about perception and assessment of emotions?
只要我们谈论评估情绪或他人的观点，您或该领域的其他人最喜欢的关于情绪感知和评估的实验是什么？
I've seen a number of studies like, oh, people with lesions here or there see scary faces as not that scary.
我看过很多研究，比如，哦，到处都有病变的人看到可怕的面孔并不那么可怕。
What's the sort of general conclusions about those studies now in 2026?
2026 年这些研究的一般结论是什么？
Because I have a feeling a lot of what was in the textbooks when I was a graduate student may not still hold up.
因为我有一种感觉，我研究生时课本上的很多内容可能仍然站不住脚。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
When I started as a postdoc in the early '90s with Damasio, I started my career on that topic by studying this famous patient, SM, who had selective bilateral amygdala lesions, and the finding was that she's unable to perceive fear in emotional facial expressions.
90 年代初期，当我在达马西奥 (Damasio) 担任博士后时，我通过研究这位著名的患者 SM 开始了我的职业生涯，SM 患有选择性双侧杏仁核病变，结果发现她无法感知情绪面部表情中的恐惧。
And-
还有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Perceive fear.
感知恐惧。
Could she feel fear?
她会感到恐惧吗？
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Subsequently, we also did that.
随后，我们也这样做了。
It took, for some reason, because it's just harder to do, it took some years.
由于某种原因，这花了很多年的时间，因为这更难做到。
Justin Feinstein, who has the floats clinic in Maui, was the first author on that paper.
贾斯汀·范斯坦（Justin Feinstein）在毛伊岛拥有花车诊所，他是该论文的第一作者。
So some years later, we took that same patient to haunted houses.
所以几年后，我们把同一个病人带到鬼屋。
We took her to an exotic pet store where there were snakes and spiders.
我们带她去了一家异国情调的宠物店，那里有蛇和蜘蛛。
We showed her horror movies, a whole bunch of things, and found also she doesn't seem to consciously experience fear either.
我们给她看了恐怖电影，还有一大堆东西，我们发现她似乎也没有有意识地感受到恐惧。
So there seemed to be this very specific deficit for fear tied to the amygdala from one patient.
因此，一名患者的杏仁核似乎存在这种非常特殊的恐惧缺陷。
So that's a big caveat.
所以这是一个很大的警告。
Does this generalize?
这具有普遍性吗？
Well, yes, the amygdala is important for fear.
嗯，是的，杏仁核对于恐惧很重要。
But just saying it's a center for fear is overly simplistic.
但仅仅说它是恐惧中心就过于简单化了。
It's embedded in a big network of structures.
它嵌入在一个巨大的结构网络中。
There's individual differences and so on and so forth.
有个体差异等等。
The perception of emotions has been studied a lot and probably has been the topic of the most acrimonious debates to some extent.
人们对情绪的感知进行了大量研究，并且在某种程度上可能是最激烈争论的话题。
So Paul Ekman back in the '70s, famous, by the way, I dedicate my forthcoming book to him because he probably had the biggest impact on modern emotion science of any single person.
顺便说一句，保罗·埃克曼（Paul Ekman）早在 70 年代就很出名，我将我即将出版的书献给他，因为他可能是对现代情感科学影响最大的人。
But his claim to fame was he went to New Guinea and these non-Western cultures and claimed that universally across all cultures, people recognize these so-called basic emotions from facial expressions.
但他的成名之处在于他去了新几内亚和这些非西方文化，并声称在所有文化中，人们普遍从面部表情中识别出这些所谓的基本情感。
If you Google this now, emotional facial expressions, you will find pictures of emotional facial expressions.
如果你现在用谷歌搜索“情绪面部表情”，你会找到情绪面部表情的图片。
Lots of AI companies and computer algorithms are predicated on the idea that you can read out the emotion from somebody's facial expression.
许多人工智能公司和计算机算法都基于这样的想法：你可以从某人的面部表情中读出情绪。
He had six of them, happiness, surprise, fear, anger, disgust, and sadness, sometimes contempt added in there.
他有六种感觉，幸福、惊讶、恐惧、愤怒、厌恶和悲伤，有时还加上蔑视。
Well, it turns out it's more complicated than that.
嗯，事实证明事情比这更复杂。
And actually, Lisa Feldman Barrett, of all people, co-authored a paper with me and three other people a couple of years back that the title was something like "Emotional Facial Expressions Reconsidered." We took stock of the whole literature and asked, is this really true?
事实上，几年前，丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特 (Lisa Feldman Barrett) 与我和其他三个人共同撰写了一篇论文，标题类似于“重新考虑情绪面部表情”。我们盘点了整个文献并询问，这是真的吗？
Is Ekman's claim really true?
艾克曼的说法真的正确吗？
Can you tell how someone feels from their facial expression?
你能从一个人的面部表情看出他的感受吗？
And the answer is, well, not nearly as well as you would think, and in general not.
答案是，嗯，并不像你想象的那么好，而且一般来说也不是。
And the reasons are methodological, and once you think about it, they make a lot of sense, which is that the emotional facial expressions that Ekman pioneered, I used them in the first 1994 Nature paper with this amygdala lesion patient.
原因是方法论上的，一旦你仔细想想，它们就很有意义，这就是埃克曼开创的情感面部表情，我在 1994 年《自然》杂志的第一篇论文中对这位杏仁核病变患者使用了它们。
Those aren't actually what you normally see walking around the world.
这些实际上并不是您通常在世界各地看到的东西。
People don't have those facial expressions.
人家没有那种表情。
They are posed facial expressions-
他们摆出各种表情——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know
我知道
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
...
...
by actors.
由演员。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah, they're very extreme.
是的，他们非常极端。
And then the task is like, well, here's a list of emotion words, happiness, fear, anger, disgust, et cetera.
然后任务就像是，这里有一个情感词列表，幸福、恐惧、愤怒、厌恶等等。
Pick the one that matches the face.
选择与脸型相符的一款。
That's the typical task.
这是典型的任务。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's multiple choice.
所以这是多项选择。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Look, if I gave you a bunch of emoticons and a bunch of emotion words and asked you to match them, you could do that very easily.
你看，如果我给你一堆表情符号和一堆情感词，让你匹配它们，你就可以很容易地做到这一点。
It wouldn't show you anything about emotions.
它不会向您显示任何有关情感的信息。
It shows you that by convention, there's some association between these things and these things.
它告诉你，按照惯例，这些事物和这些事物之间存在某种关联。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
That's it.
就是这样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
So when you actually see real-world facial expressions, and when instead of giving a list, you just ask people, just generate freely a word that describes that, you get something that has much more variation, much more heterogeneity, which then was part of the ingredient for Lisa's whole claim that variation is the norm, and that in fact, emotions are in some sense constructed rather than packages to be found in nature, which I disagree with that part.
因此，当你真正看到现实世界的面部表情时，当你不给出一个列表，而只是询问人们，只是自由地生成一个词来描述它时，你会得到一些具有更多变化、更多异质性的东西，这就是丽莎整个主张的成分的一部分，即变化是常态，事实上，情感在某种意义上是被构建的，而不是在自然界中发现的包，我不同意这部分。
But for the emotional facial expressions, for the perception of emotions in others and in animals, I was just talking before coming in here to one of your colleagues about your cute dog, and they've done studies.
但是对于情感面部表情，对于他人和动物的情感感知，我只是在来这里之前与你的一位同事谈论你可爱的狗，他们已经做了研究。
There's several studies now where dog owners, if you ask them, "Can you tell if your dog feels guilty when you come home because it did something bad?" Dog owners are pretty convinced they can tell.
现在有几项研究表明，如果你问狗主人，“当你回家时，你的狗是否因为做了坏事而感到内疚，你能看出吗？”狗主人非常确信他们能分辨出来。
Well, if you do a controlled experiment, they're a chance.
好吧，如果你做一个对照实验，它们就是一个机会。
They think they can tell.
他们认为他们可以说出来。
So our conviction that we can tell something about people or animals, their emotion states, just from looking at the facial expressions, our conviction vastly outstrips our accuracy.
因此，我们坚信，仅通过观察面部表情就可以了解人或动物及其情绪状态，我们的信念远远超出了我们的准确性。
We're pretty convinced we can do it, but mostly not so accurate, which makes sense because ordinarily, it's not just some facial ex-- If I see you now and you look sad, I wouldn't stop there and I would say, "Andrew Huberman is sad." I would ask you, "How are you feeling?
我们非常确信我们可以做到这一点，但大多数情况下不是那么准确，这是有道理的，因为通常情况下，这不仅仅是一些面部表情——如果我现在看到你，你看起来很悲伤，我不会就此停下来，我会说，“安德鲁·胡伯曼很悲伤。”我会问你：“你感觉怎么样？
What's going on?" I would probe you and get a lot more information, and maybe you would say, "Oh, no, it's just this drink I had tasted bad or something that caused me to make a certain facial expression." So in general, these artificial lab situations where all you see is a picture of a face and asked for the emotion, we don't do that in the real world anyway.
发生什么事了？”我会试探你，得到更多的信息，也许你会说，“哦，不，只是我喝的这杯饮料味道不好或者是什么东西让我做出了某种面部表情。”所以一般来说，在这些人工实验室的情况下，你所看到的只是一张脸的图片并询问情感，无论如何，我们在现实世界中不会这样做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
We would probe further, we would take into account the whole circumstances, we would ask the person, and then you can disambiguate these emotions.
我们会进一步探究，我们会考虑整个情况，我们会询问这个人，然后你就可以消除这些情绪的歧义。
So it's not that we cannot tell what emotions people or animals feel, but we don't do so normally just from a single slice, like a facial expression.
因此，并不是说我们无法判断人或动物的情绪，而是我们通常不会仅通过单个切片（例如面部表情）来判断。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I feel like at least in the context of romantic partnership, so much more of our assessment of another person and their assessment of us is actually a mathematical integration of noticing when frequency of speech or frequency of text is heading in a negative direction relative to the mean, right?
我觉得至少在浪漫伴侣关系的背景下，我们对另一个人的评估以及他们对我们的评估实际上是数学整合，注意到何时言语频率或文本频率相对于平均值朝负方向发展，对吗？
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yep.
是的。
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
At a particular time of day, and I think the brain is really good at saying, like normally somebody's pretty communicative in the morning, but less at night, for sake of example.
在一天中的某个特定时间，我认为大脑真的很擅长说话，就像通常情况下，某人在早上非常善于交流，但在晚上则较少，例如。
But suddenly they're a little more terse with us in the morning, but maybe not even harshness.
但早上他们突然对我们变得更加简洁，但甚至可能不再严厉。
There's just fewer words exchanged, and then the brain doesn't think, oh, they looked angry or they looked frustrated.
只是交流的话语减少了，然后大脑就不会认为，哦，他们看起来很生气，或者看起来很沮丧。
You go, oh, it's a little quieter this morning than usual.
你去吧，哦，今天早上比平时安静一点。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then if it's a very quiet person, you have fewer data points to work from, but we become exquisitely tuned to this.
然后，如果这是一个非常安静的人，你可以利用的数据点就会减少，但我们会对此进行精心调整。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Much more than like, oh, they're carrying their shoulders differently.
不仅仅是，哦，他们肩负的方式不同。
At the extremes, I think we see this.
在极端情况下，我认为我们看到了这一点。
Somebody walks in the door and you can tell-
有人走进门，你可以看出——
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
they're sad, they're defeated.
他们很悲伤，他们失败了。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
But in general, we're looking for change, like what you said.
但总的来说，我们正在寻求改变，就像你所说的那样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're looking for change.
你正在寻找改变。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
It's a time series.
这是一个时间序列。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
It's dynamic.
它是动态的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the number of times, or even just, you've probably had this experience, in an email with a colleague, let's move it to a different domain.
您可能在与同事的电子邮件中多次（甚至只是）有过这种经历，让我们将其移至其他域。
There's a certain kind of language that's used in an email that's different than the usual language.
电子邮件中使用的某种语言与通常的语言不同。
Like they've never really used these words before.
就像他们以前从未真正使用过这些词一样。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You don't even identify which words those are.
你甚至不知道这些是什么词。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Years ago, there was this chart That some graduate student or postdoc put out that if the director of a lab signs off with their name, it means one thing.
几年前，有一张图表，一些研究生或博士后提出，如果实验室主任用他们的名字签名，那就意味着一件事。
If they punctuate their email, it means like, "Let's meet," like you're in trouble.
如果他们在电子邮件中加标点符号，则意味着“我们见面吧”，就像您遇到麻烦了一样。
If there's just a dash with a first initial, there's all this...
如果只有一个带有第一个首字母的破折号，那就是所有这些......
And you kind of-- I laugh, too, and then you realize, you go, wow, like they're really paying attention to all these subtle cues.
我也笑了，然后你意识到，哇，好像他们真的在注意所有这些微妙的线索。
But those seem like the kind of cues that we rely on-
但这些似乎是我们所依赖的线索——
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Absolutely
绝对
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
much more than like, do they look sad?
不仅仅是喜欢，他们看起来悲伤吗？
Do they sound happy?
他们听起来高兴吗？
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think we vastly underestimate this, and I don't know if there are any good studies of this, but this feels like the more relevant in the real world.
我认为我们大大低估了这一点，我不知道是否对此有任何好的研究，但这感觉与现实世界更相关。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
No, absolutely.
不，绝对是。
There are a bunch.
有一堆。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
We just finished a study like this where people texted.
我们刚刚完成了一项人们发短信的研究。
That's all they had.
这就是他们所拥有的一切。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
But it's dynamic.
但它是动态的。
It's a conversation.
这是一次对话。
There's like a whole transcript.
好像有完整的文字记录。
And then the question is, what can you tell about a person, both in terms of their stable personality and their current mood, just from that text?
那么问题是，仅从文本中你可以了解一个人的哪些方面，无论是他稳定的性格还是他当前的情绪？
It turns out you can tell a lot.
事实证明你可以说出很多东西。
So people did this study recently where people generated, I think it's about a page or so of sort of diary-type written text, and asked just large language models like GPT or Claude to analyze that text without knowing anything else and just tell me the personality profile.
所以人们最近做了这项研究，人们生成了大约一页左右的日记类型的书面文本，并要求像 GPT 或 Claude 这样的大型语言模型来分析该文本，而无需了解其他任何内容，然后只告诉我性格概况。
And it's as good as the ground truth or as another person or a clinician would be.
它与基本事实或其他人或临床医生一样好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As good as a clinician?
和临床医生一样好吗？
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
It gets close to the ground truth, and it's-
它接近真实情况，而且是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow
哇
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
...
...
as good as like a good friend or a person who knows the person.
就像一个好朋友或一个认识这个人的人一样好。
So if you score the big five-
所以如果你得分五大 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
...
...
which is what they did in that study, extraversion, conscientiousness, neuroticism, et cetera, you can tell that.
这就是他们在那项研究中所做的，外向性、尽责性、神经质等等，你可以看出。
AI can tell that just from a transcript of text quite well.
人工智能仅从文本记录就能很好地判断出这一点。
So the information is there, clearly, in what we say, what we write, and the order in which that progresses that tells a lot about a person.
因此，信息显然存在于我们所说、所写的内容中，以及这些过程的进展顺序，这些都可以告诉我们很多关于一个人的信息。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Enough that AI can basically diagnose your personality from just text.
人工智能基本上可以通过文本来诊断你的性格，这已经足够了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's almost like our brain is very attuned to when we don't get what we were expecting to get in terms of the amount of interaction.
当我们没有得到我们期望的交互量时，我们的大脑几乎会非常适应。
Like, I have some people that clean up the graffiti on the street where I live, and there's always an exchange of hello or a hi if one of us is on a call or busy.
比如，我有一些人清理我住的街道上的涂鸦，如果我们中的一个人正在打电话或很忙，我们总是会打招呼或打招呼。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I can say with certainty, because this happened the other day, that if I looked over and the person saw me and then turned away, even though we-- I don't know their name, well, maybe I do now, but that there's very little familiarity except with we always acknowledge the other's presence.
我可以肯定地说，因为这件事发生在前几天，如果我回头一看，那个人看到了我，然后转过身去，即使我们——我不知道他们的名字，好吧，也许我现在知道了，但是除了我们总是承认对方的存在之外，我们之间的熟悉程度很低。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If they were to do that, I would think, gosh, like this person's maybe upset.
如果他们这样做，我会想，天哪，这个人可能会感到不安。
Like, you know?
就像，你知道吗？
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
That's one of the key ingredients of Lisa Feldman Barrett's thinking, certainly in recent years, which is prediction, that most of the information comes from when there's a mismatch between what you're predicting about a circumstance and something that's just different, because that carries information.
这是丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特（Lisa Feldman Barrett）思想的关键要素之一，当然是近年来的预测，即大多数信息来自于你对情况的预测与不同的事物之间存在不匹配，因为它携带着信息。
Something changed, right?
有什么改变了，对吧？
Like what you were saying.
就像你说的那样。
And Lisa's work, Lisa's thinking on emotions incorporates prediction in a big way these days.
而丽莎的工作，丽莎对情绪的思考在很大程度上融入了当今的预测。
That there's something that you're predicting about the world, but suddenly, there's a tiger or something unexpected, and you need to incorporate that, and that carries-
你正在预测世界上有一些事情，但突然间，出现了一只老虎或一些意想不到的东西，你需要将其纳入其中，这意味着——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
...
...
important information.
重要信息。
But absolutely, we're always predicting, and there's-- we're taking into account things that change, like the facial expressions.
但绝对的是，我们总是在预测，而且我们正在考虑变化的因素，比如面部表情。
The original studies, like the ones I started doing as a postdoc, where you just show these static Paul Ekman pictures of facial affect, well, we never see that in people.
最初的研究，就像我作为博士后开始做的那些，你只是展示这些保罗·艾克曼面部表情的静态图片，好吧，我们从来没有在人们身上看到过这种情况。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
It's always dynamic.
它总是动态的。
The face is changing.
脸色正在发生变化。
And so Philip Schyns, Rachel Jack, colleagues in Scotland, for instance, have studied this in great detail and used dynamic, actual videos of people making faces and asked at what point does the brain start to represent different emotions depending on not how the face looks, but how the face is changing.
例如，苏格兰的 Philip Schyns、Rachel Jack 等同事对此进行了详细研究，并使用了人们做鬼脸的动态真实视频，并询问大脑在什么时候开始代表不同的情绪，而不是取决于面部的外观，而是取决于面部的变化方式。
So the-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting
有趣
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
...
...
dynamics are everywhere.
动态无处不在。
It's super important.
这非常重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because when we look at babies and they start to smile for the first time, or they express what we think is humor or something like that, we are so tuned to faces because they can't really do much in whether or not they're interacting with us or not is really dependent on our behavior.
因为当我们看到婴儿时，他们第一次开始微笑，或者他们表达了我们认为的幽默或类似的东西，我们非常关注面孔，因为他们实际上无法做太多事情，无论他们是否与我们互动，这实际上取决于我们的行为。
There's a lot of control there.
那里有很多控制权。
We're putting them in front of us.
我们把它们放在我们面前。
As they develop more autonomy, then these sorts of dynamics really emerge.
当他们发展出更多的自主权时，这些动力就会真正出现。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Well, and the face is visible, and the human face has way more muscles and control than other animals do.
嗯，脸是可见的，而且人脸比其他动物有更多的肌肉和控制力。
Great apes have similar sets of muscles, but monkeys or your dog, you can't make those kinds of faces.
类人猿有类似的肌肉，但猴子或你的狗，你不能做出那种表情。
It just doesn't have the muscle.
只是没有肌肉而已。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, he side-eyes me every once in a while, and I project onto him what that's about, but he's a real sweetie.
不，他时不时地斜视我一眼，我把那件事投射到他身上，但他是一个真正的甜心。
I had another bulldog mutt, they're both mutts, who was much more coarse, less affectionate.
我还有另一只斗牛犬杂种狗，它们都是杂种狗，但更粗鲁，更不友善。
This one is like pure butter.
这个就像纯黄油。
But of course, I don't know what's going on in his head.
但当然，我不知道他脑子里在想什么。
He could be thinking like, "This guy's the biggest jerk in the world." Like, "I wish we were walking right now." This patient, SM, who had bilateral amygdala lesions, could she experience autonomic arousal?
他可能会想，“这家伙是世界上最大的混蛋。”就像，“我希望我们现在正在走路。”这位 SM 患者双侧杏仁核病变，她是否会经历自主神经唤醒？
Could she experience stress?
她会感受到压力吗？
Could she experience anxiety under any conditions?
她在任何情况下都会感到焦虑吗？
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
She could.
她可以。
And that's really important.
这真的很重要。
So you might think that it's just like, oh, the whole emotion system is gone.
所以你可能会认为这就像，哦，整个情感系统都消失了。
You just sort of denervated the entire autonomic nervous system, and that's why you don't have emotions.
你只是失去了整个自主神经系统的神经，这就是为什么你没有情绪。
But it's much more specific than that and fits with thinking about emotions as evolved functional modules for dealing with particular types of statistically recurring environmental challenges that share some challenging feature in common.
但它比这更具体，并且适合将情绪视为进化的功能模块，用于处理特定类型的统计上反复出现的环境挑战，这些挑战具有一些共同的挑战性特征。
So she doesn't have fear to external stressors.
所以她对外界的压力并不恐惧。
Like we went with her into a haunted house.
就像我们和她一起走进鬼屋一样。
She poked the monsters and wanted to touch things.
她戳着怪物，想要触碰东西。
Same with the snakes and the spiders in the pet store.
宠物店里的蛇和蜘蛛也是如此。
But we did a study, again, Justin Feinstein, I think was the first author on this one as well, with her and with a couple, two maybe, or three patients who had similar lesions in collaboration with Rene Hurlemann from Germany, where we put a mask on them and had them inhale carbon dioxide.
但我们又做了一项研究，贾斯汀·范斯坦（Justin Feinstein），我想他也是这方面的第一作者，与她以及来自德国的雷内·赫尔曼（Rene Hurlemann）合作，与一对、可能是两个或三个有类似病变的患者合作，我们给他们戴上面罩，让他们吸入二氧化碳。
If you do that, you get a panic attack in about half the population because it makes you feel like you're suffocating.
如果你这样做，大约一半的人会感到恐慌，因为这会让你感觉窒息。
So as soon as you get that carbon dioxide in, it changes the pH in your blood that's detected by the brain, and you get this massive air hunger, like you suddenly can't breathe.
因此，一旦你吸入二氧化碳，它就会改变大脑检测到的血液 pH 值，你就会感到严重的空气饥饿，就像你突然无法呼吸一样。
That's what your brain goes into this alarm mode of some suffocation, like a panic.
这就是你的大脑进入某种窒息警报模式的原因，比如恐慌。
And she and the other amygdala patients had a full-blown panic attack when they inhaled the carbon dioxide.
当她和其他杏仁核患者吸入二氧化碳时，他们出现了全面的恐慌。
So this interoceptive signal seems not to depend on the amygdala and to depend on other- ...
因此，这种内感受信号似乎并不依赖于杏仁核，而是依赖于其他......
brainstem circuits.
脑干回路。
So we had a very important association between different types of fear, which is, I think, a bottom-line story for the way that the science is informing our folk psychology, which is these categories we have, like anger or fear or disgust.
因此，我们在不同类型的恐惧之间存在着非常重要的联系，我认为这是科学向我们的民间心理学提供信息的方式的底线故事，这就是我们所拥有的这些类别，例如愤怒、恐惧或厌恶。
There are many varieties.
有很多品种。
It's much more finely differentiated than that once you look at the science, and once you look at the brain systems.
当你观察科学和大脑系统时，它会更加精细地区分。
There are distinct brain systems in this instance for fear to something out there in the world versus panic of something happening inside you, like having a heart attack or not getting enough air.
在这种情况下，有不同的大脑系统，分别是对世界上发生的事情的恐惧和对内心发生的事情的恐慌，比如心脏病发作或呼吸不足。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe we could talk a little bit about the bodily representation of these things we're calling emotions.
也许我们可以谈谈这些我们称之为情感的东西的身体表征。
Years ago, I posted on social media a picture of a figure from your book with David Anderson, which was describing a study where people self-described, so it's purely subjective reporting as I recall, where in their body they felt different emotions.
几年前，我在社交媒体上发布了一张你与大卫·安德森合作的书中人物的照片，其中描述了一项人们自我描述的研究，所以我记得这纯粹是主观报告，他们在身体中感受到了不同的情绪。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Oh, the bodily maps of emotions, yeah.
哦，情绪的身体地图，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's kind of like a heat map in the forehead for certain emotions and in the whole body for others, and there were a wide range of emotions.
所以这有点像某些情绪的前额热图和其他情绪的全身热图，并且有各种各样的情绪。
And admittedly, it's subjective report, but does this hold up?
诚然，这是主观报告，但这站得住脚吗？
I think to myself, where do I feel sadness, like heartache?
我心里想，我哪里感到悲伤，比如心痛？
Well, I tend to feel it around my heart, but maybe that's because it's called heartache.
嗯，我倾向于在我的心周围感受到它，但也许那是因为它被称为心痛。
Where do I feel anger?
我哪里感到愤怒？
Well, extreme anger I'm going to feel as a whole body experience.
好吧，我全身都会感受到极度的愤怒。
Same thing with awe.
敬畏也是如此。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what, if anything, is important about the regularity and/or the variation in where in our body we feel emotions?
那么，我们身体中感受情绪的部位的规律性和/或变化，如果有的话，重要的是什么呢？
Some people would say this is their whole experience of life.
有些人会说，这就是他们人生的全部经历。
They feel things in their body all the time.
他们一直在感受身体里的东西。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Well-
嗯-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some people feel, I think, are more cerebral.
我认为有些人感觉更理智。
They think things more than they feel things.
他们对事物的思考多于对事物的感受。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
I think it's a great question.
我认为这是一个很好的问题。
That figure that you're alluding to came from a paper, I think, in PNAS by Lauri Nummenmaa and colleagues in Finland.
我想，你提到的这个数字来自 Lauri Nummenmaa 和芬兰同事在 PNAS 上发表的一篇论文。
And he and his colleague, Heini Saarimaki, they've done some of the great recent studies also on experience of emotions in humans using functional MRI.
他和他的同事 Heini Saarimaki 最近也利用功能性 MRI 进行了一些关于人类情绪体验的伟大研究。
But what you mentioned, so the experiment is I just give you a word.
但你提到的，所以实验是我只是给你一句话。
I'm not actually making you feel the emotion.
我实际上并没有让你感受到这种情绪。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
I'm asking you, sadness, draw where on the body you think you would feel that emotion.
我问你，悲伤，在身体的哪个部位画出你认为你会感受到这种情绪的地方。
So if you think about it, it's certainly not about actual physiological changes in the body.
所以如果你仔细想想，这肯定不是身体实际的生理变化。
Nothing's measured in the body.
身体里没有任何东西可以测量。
They don't have electrodes on the body or whatever.
他们身上没有电极或其他东西。
There's people just drawing on a little mannequin where they think they would feel the emotion.
有些人只是在一个小人体模型上画画，他们认为这样可以感受到情感。
It's also not about conscious experiences of emotion.
它也与有意识的情感体验无关。
I'm not showing you sad movie clips or anything like that.
我不会给你看悲伤的电影片段或类似的东西。
I'm giving you a word, a single word.
我给你一句话，一个字。
So it's about concepts.
所以这是关于概念的。
It's about where in the body people's concept of sadness or happiness or fear, where that corresponds to changes in the body.
这是关于人们对悲伤或快乐或恐惧的概念在身体的哪个部位，与身体的变化相对应。
Now, that's an interesting question, but you have to narrow it down to that, which is a fundamental problem with most emotion study, including that one.
现在，这是一个有趣的问题，但你必须将其范围缩小到这一点，这是大多数情绪研究（包括那个研究）的一个基本问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
I forget what the title is, but it's something like Bodily Maps of Emotions or Bodily Maps of Subjective Experience, maybe even.
我忘记了标题是什么，但它甚至可能是《情感的身体地图》或《主观体验的身体地图》。
It should be something like People's Concept of Where in the Body Emotion Words are Associated With Changes or something like that.
它应该类似于“人们对身体中哪些情绪词与变化相关的概念”之类的东西。
What's interesting about that study is that Lauri has gone on to look at it in different cultures.
这项研究的有趣之处在于，劳里继续在不同的文化中观察它。
He's looked at it developmentally across children and asked how these concepts and where in the body you would feel emotion develop.
他从儿童的发展角度研究了这一点，并询问这些概念是如何发展的，以及你在身体的哪个部位会感受到情绪的发展。
So it's super interesting work, but it's ultimately about people's concepts of how emotions correspond to changes in the body, not the real, actual changes in the body.
所以这是非常有趣的工作，但它最终是关于人们关于情绪如何对应身体变化的概念，而不是身体真实的变化。
But then, as you were saying, of course, there are real changes in the body when you really feel an emotion as well.
但是，正如你所说，当然，当你真正感受到一种情绪时，身体也会发生真正的变化。
And that's harder to study, but people have studied it quite a bit with a focus on the part of the brain that gets a lot of input from the body, which is a part of cortex called the insula.
这更难研究，但人们已经对其进行了大量研究，重点关注从身体获得大量输入的大脑部分，即皮层的一部分，称为岛叶。
And so there's lots and lots of work on the insula.
因此，脑岛需要做很多很多工作。
It gets input from all the organs in your body, everywhere in your body.
它从你身体的所有器官、身体的各个部位获取输入。
So from your heart, from your liver, from your kidney.
所以从你的心，从你的肝，从你的肾。
I had a kidney stone not too long ago, we should talk about the kidney.
我不久前得了肾结石，我们应该谈谈肾脏。
Have you had a kidney stone?
你得过肾结石吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Don't.
不要。
It's really interesting.
这真的很有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You have to pass it.
你必须通过它。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Eventually, it's passed, but it evokes very interesting adaptive behaviors.
最终，它通过了，但它引发了非常有趣的适应性行为。
Well, just as an aside, before I forget it.
好吧，顺便说一句，在我忘记之前。
So normally for pain, exteroceptive pain, like we were talking about the hot plate before-
所以通常对于疼痛，外感疼痛，就像我们之前谈论的热板一样-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
...
...
you pull your hand away or there's some kind of reflex.
你把手抽开或者有某种条件反射。
For the kidney stone, that's not adaptive.
对于肾结石来说，这是不适应性的。
There's nothing to pull away.
没有什么可以拉走的。
So my wife, this was in Switzerland, we're in a remote little town.
我的妻子，这是在瑞士，我们在一个偏远的小镇。
In the middle of the night, my wife sees me curled up into a ball on the floor, just breathing loudly and curled up and making rocking motions.
半夜，我妻子看到我在地板上蜷缩成一团，呼吸大声，蜷缩成一团，做出摇摆的动作。
And goes, "What's wrong?" And I tell her, "Well, I have a kidney stone." And then she asked me, "Can't you just stop that behavior?
然后问道：“怎么了？”我告诉她，“好吧，我有肾结石。”然后她问我：“你就不能停止这种行为吗？
Can we get on a plane and fly to the US so you can get ultrasound, maybe get treated for the kidney stone?
我们可以乘飞机飞往美国，以便您可以接受超声波检查，也许可以接受肾结石治疗吗？
Can you stop curling up into a ball and making rocking motions?" And I was thinking about that through my haze of pain and said, "Well, no." It's like the hot plate and pulling away.
你能别再蜷缩成一团并做摇晃的动作吗？”我在痛苦的迷雾中思考着这一点，然后说：“好吧，不。”就像热板一样，拉开。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
It's a really strongly motivated behavior to just withdraw, basically.
基本上，这是一种非常强烈的退出行为。
So it was a very interesting adaptive behavior.
所以这是一种非常有趣的适应性行为。
And she called the equivalent of 911, and in the middle of the night, some guy came down and put a bunch of opiates into me.
她拨打了相当于 911 的电话，在半夜，有人下来给我注射了一堆阿片类药物。
And he kept having the scale of, on a scale from zero to 10, how painful is it?
他一直在从 0 到 10 打分，到底有多痛苦？
And I would go from 10 to 9.5, and it was extremely painful.
我会从 10 降到 9.5，这非常痛苦。
But eventually, they got me to a clinic there.
但最终，他们把我带到了那里的一家诊所。
I passed the stone, and it was an interesting experience.
我经过了这块石头，这是一次有趣的经历。
It's pain, but just like what we were talking about for emotions, pain is not pain.
是痛苦，但就像我们谈论情绪一样，痛苦不是痛苦。
If you have a pain in your eye or you have a pain from a hot stove, this is a very different type of pain, and one that's, I would say, worse than the hot stove.
如果您的眼睛疼痛或因热炉而疼痛，这是一种非常不同类型的疼痛，我想说，这种疼痛比热炉更严重。
It's because you can't escape.
那是因为你无法逃避。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When you can't rub it.
当你擦不掉的时候。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
You can't do anything.
你什么也做不了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
You just curl up into a ball and pray.
你只需蜷缩成一个球并祈祷即可。
It was horrible.
太可怕了。
At any rate, so at that moment, had I been in an MRI study, my insula would've been strongly activated.
无论如何，在那一刻，如果我正在进行核磁共振研究，我的脑岛会被强烈激活。
So this is a region of the brain that according to Theorists, but Craig was the first.
所以根据理论学家的说法，这是大脑的一个区域，但克雷格是第一个。
Antonio Damasio has theories in a similar vein.
安东尼奥·达马西奥也有类似的理论。
This would be the substrate for the conscious experience of the emotion or of pain in your body.
这将是你身体中情绪或疼痛的有意识体验的基础。
So it's getting all this input from your body and representing the changes in your body as a conscious experience.
因此，它从您的身体获取所有这些输入，并将您身体的变化表示为一种有意识的体验。
This was the original theory that William James had back in 1884.
这是威廉·詹姆斯 (William James) 早在 1884 年提出的最初理论。
He wrote this paper in mind, "What is an emotion?" And his theory was that you see the bear, you run away, your heart rate goes up, and then you feel the emotion, which is a consequence of you perceiving all the changes in your body that happened first.
他写这篇论文的初衷是“什么是情感？”他的理论是，你看到熊，你逃跑，你的心率上升，然后你感受到情绪，这是你感知到身体首先发生的所有变化的结果。
Now that's, I think, the conscious experience of emotion, yes, and a lot of that depends on representing, perceiving everything that changes in our body.
我认为，这就是情感的有意识体验，是的，其中很大一部分取决于代表和感知我们身体中发生的一切变化。
But to my mind, that leaves the question of what the emotion is.
但在我看来，这就留下了情感是什么的问题。
That's still antecedent to that.
这还是那件事的先决条件。
You first have to trigger all the changes in your body and run away.
你首先要触发身体的所有变化然后逃跑。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
What's doing that?
那是做什么的？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
That's the emotion.
这就是情感。
The conscious experience may well come later and unfold over some time, but the emotion state, separate from the conscious experience, as I've emphasized, would be the one that actually motivates all the behaviors and all the different changes in your body.
有意识的体验很可能会稍后出现并在一段时间内展开，但正如我所强调的，与有意识的体验分开的情绪状态将是真正激发你身体所有行为和所有不同变化的因素。
So long answer to your question, there are these two different ways of talking about the role of the body.
这么长的答案你的问题，有这两种不同的方式来谈论身体的作用。
The one that you alluded to in this figure from Lauri Nummenmaa and colleagues that we reproduced in our book is about people's concepts of emotions, and they're certainly tied to changes in the body.
您在我们在书中转载的劳里·努门玛 (Lauri Nummenmaa) 和同事的图中提到的，是关于人们的情绪概念，它们肯定与身体的变化有关。
Whether or not those are accurate, I think we just don't know.
这些是否准确，我想我们只是不知道。
So is it the case that those drawings that they have in the figure that we were speaking about, if you put electrodes on, you measured blood flow changes, that's actually where things change when you have awe or anger?
那么，我们所说的图中的那些图画，如果你戴上电极，你测量到的血流变化，这实际上是当你敬畏或愤怒时事情发生变化的地方吗？
I think we just don't know.
我想我们只是不知道。
I think that's a set of studies that remains to be done.
我认为这是一组有待完成的研究。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
But then in addition, there is the fact that all of the changes in your body are represented in your brain in the insula, and that seems to be a big part of the substrate for feeling the emotion, for the conscious experience of the emotion.
但除此之外，事实上，你身体的所有变化都会在脑岛中得到体现，这似乎是感受情绪、有意识地体验情绪的基础的重要组成部分。
And other things, nausea, pain, kidney stones.
还有其他的事情，恶心、疼痛、肾结石。
So it's not limited to emotions.
所以它不仅限于情感。
But the strong feelings that we have, like you have a tightness in your chest if you're feeling really sad, for example, that would be represented in your insula.
但是我们所拥有的强烈感觉，例如，如果您感到非常悲伤，就会感到胸口发紧，这会在您的脑岛中得到体现。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because in Eastern medicine, there's strong beliefs about different organs being associated with different emotional states.
因为在东方医学中，人们坚信不同的器官与不同的情绪状态相关。
Even like-
甚至像——
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
gall, someone has a lot of gall, the gallbladder.
胆，有人有很多胆，胆囊。
But then again, I always have to remind people that a key feature of schizophrenia and psychosis of other kinds is clang associations.
但话又说回来，我总是要提醒人们，精神分裂症和其他类型的精神病的一个关键特征是铿锵联想。
Two words sound alike, and people link them.
两个词听起来很相似，人们就把它们联系起来。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so we also are subject to this in a much milder way in the world of health and science, and especially in the public discourse.
因此，在健康和科学领域，尤其是在公共话语中，我们也以一种温和得多的方式受到这种影响。
People will say, "Oh, a walnut looks like a brain.
人们会说：“哦，核桃看起来像大脑。
Walnuts are good for your brain." Well, they have some fatty acids that are probably good for neurons, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the shape of the walnut.
核桃对你的大脑有好处。”嗯，它们含有一些可能对神经元有益的脂肪酸，但这与核桃的形状完全无关。
It's amazing how these ideas can kind of perpetuate.
令人惊奇的是，这些想法能够持久存在。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Well, and I think there is some truth to them.
嗯，我认为他们有一些道理。
I think the honest answer is it has not been tested.
我认为诚实的答案是它尚未经过测试。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
So if you ask someone like Lisa Feldman Barrett, has made this point repeatedly, that there really is no systematic association between specific emotions and specific changes in your body.
因此，如果你问像丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特（Lisa Feldman Barrett）这样的人，她反复强调了这一点，那么特定情绪和你身体的特定变化之间确实不存在系统性的关联。
Well, if you look at those studies, people put a few electrodes on and they measure heart rate changes, blood pressure changes, et cetera.
好吧，如果你看一下这些研究，人们会戴上一些电极，然后测量心率变化、血压变化等等。
It is extremely crude.
这是极其粗糙的。
You're looking at a tiny, tiny slice-
你看到的是一个很小很小的切片——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
...
...
of what's going on in your body.
你身体里发生的事情。
What you would want to do is have a detailed, high-dimensional readout of, okay, your gallbladder and your liver and your kidney and your heart, and changes all over your body, and look at that and ask, is there some kind of association between specific emotion states and changes, some kind of complex change in your body?
你想要做的是详细、高维地读出你的胆囊、肝脏、肾脏和心脏，以及你全身的变化，然后观察并询问，特定的情绪状态和变化之间是否存在某种关联，你的身体发生某种复杂的变化？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
And I would bet that there is-
我敢打赌，有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
...
...
but we just don't have those data yet.
但我们还没有这些数据。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
So those studies remain to be done.
因此，这些研究仍有待完成。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, they really should be done, because I could make up a story where if someone or an animal feels extreme anger, like of the sort that they would have right before they were in a fight, that certain immune organs would deploy a bunch of things that prepare for-
是的，它们确实应该完成，因为我可以编一个故事，如果某人或一只动物感到极度愤怒，就像他们在战斗之前就会有的那样，某些免疫器官会部署一堆东西来准备-
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
wound healing or prepare-
伤口愈合或准备-
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for resilience in the aftermath.
以便灾后恢复能力。
That just stands to reason.
这是有道理的。
Of course, I have-
当然，我有——
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
no data for that, but-
没有这方面的数据，但是-
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Well, and the link between the brain and the body, we now understand that that is so detailed and so intricate that really brain and body are very tightly coupled.
嗯，以及大脑和身体之间的联系，我们现在了解到，它是如此详细和复杂，以至于大脑和身体实际上是非常紧密地结合在一起的。
And we do know that there are signatures.
我们确实知道有签名。
They're distributed, they're complicated, but Lisa Feldman Barrett herself, in collaboration with Tor Wager, has published neuroimaging studies showing that for basic emotions like anger and fear and sadness and so on, there are reliable signatures of brain activation.
它们是分散的、复杂的，但 Lisa Feldman Barrett 本人与 Tor Wager 合作发表的神经影像学研究表明，对于愤怒、恐惧和悲伤等基本情绪，存在可靠的大脑激活特征。
They're distributed, they're spread out, they're complicated.
它们是分布式的、分散的、复杂的。
They're not just in one place.
他们不只在一个地方。
But given that, given that association between emotions and patterns of the brain and the fact that the brain and the body are so intimately tied together, I think it's a completely reasonable hypothesis that you would find a similar high-dimensional signature of changes throughout your body that are systematically associated with certain types of emotions.
但考虑到情绪和大脑模式之间的关联，以及大脑和身体如此紧密地联系在一起，我认为这是一个完全合理的假设，即你会发现整个身体变化的类似高维特征，这些变化与某些类型的情绪系统地相关。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I had a thought spring to mind based on our earlier discussion.
根据我们之前的讨论，我想到了一个想法。
From the perspective of media and advertising, it makes perfect sense why all media and advertising is incentivized to get you to prioritize an emotion to the point where it takes over behavior.
从媒体和广告的角度来看，所有媒体和广告都被激励让你优先考虑某种情绪，直至它取代行为，这是完全有道理的。
To go click and buy something or to vote a certain way or to hate a certain group or to like a certain group.
点击并购买某些东西或以某种方式投票或讨厌某个群体或喜欢某个群体。
And so really what they're fighting for is this prioritization thing.
所以他们真正争取的是优先顺序。
Like the-
就像-
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
path to behavior is through the prioritization of emotion.
行为的途径是通过情感的优先顺序。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
It's basically an attentional capture.
这基本上是一种注意力捕获。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
It captures your attention.
它吸引了你的注意力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Which is what emotions are designed to do.
这就是情绪的设计目的。
And once you've captured people's attention, you have a captive audience, and you can control them much more.
一旦你吸引了人们的注意力，你就拥有了一批忠实的观众，你就可以更好地控制他们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And in some sense it's obvious, right?
从某种意义上说，这是显而易见的，对吧？
You get people emotional, they're more likely to behave in a certain way versus another.
你会让人们变得情绪化，他们更有可能以某种方式行事，而不是另一种方式。
But I think we underestimate the extent to which all day long we are bombarded with these signals.
但我认为我们低估了我们整天受到这些信号轰炸的程度。
Like subtle advertising doesn't really work well.
微妙的广告效果并不好。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Someone said, I don't know who said it, but, all A B testing leads to like sex or violence, because if you really just look at what's likely to grab people's attention, eventually you regress into the hypothalamus.
有人说，我不知道是谁说的，但是，所有 A B 测试都会导致性或暴力，因为如果你真的只关注可能吸引人们注意力的东西，最终你会回归到下丘脑。
The more primitive-
更原始的——
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
estates like inspire more attention, which tells you a lot about the world.
像这样的庄园会激发更多的关注，这会告诉你很多关于这个世界的事情。
And there-
还有——
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
are ethical lines and there are societal lines where you say, "No, that's too extreme, too much violence, too much skin." But it's all veering in the, toward the hypothalamus, so to speak.
是道德界限，还有社会界限，你会说：“不，那太极端了，太多暴力，太多皮肤。”但可以这么说，这一切都在转向下丘脑。
It's all getting more and more primitive.
这一切都变得越来越原始。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
There's a lot of processing that goes on in all these subcortical structures, and certainly what we understand best in terms of emotions are all these subcortical circuits, and a lot of that is below the radar of our conscious awareness.
所有这些皮层下结构中都会进行大量的处理，当然，我们在情感方面最了解的就是所有这些皮层下回路，其中很多都在我们意识的雷达之下。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Function.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 Function。
Function provides over 160 advanced lab tests to give you a clear snapshot of your bodily health.
功能提供超过 160 项高级实验室测试，让您清晰了解自己的身体健康状况。
This snapshot gives you insights into your heart health, your hormone health, autoimmune function, nutrient levels, and much more.
通过此快照，您可以深入了解心脏健康状况、激素健康状况、自身免疫功能、营养水平等。
They've also recently added access to advanced MRI and CT scans.
他们最近还增加了先进的 MRI 和 CT 扫描的访问权限。
Function not only provides testing of over 160 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, it also analyzes these results and provides recommendations for improving your health from top doctors.
Function 不仅提供对您身心健康至关重要的 160 多种生物标记物的测试，还分析这些结果并提供顶级医生改善您健康的建议。
For example, in a recent test with Function, I learned that some of my blood lipids were slightly out of range.
例如，在最近的一次 Function 测试中，我发现我的一些血脂稍微超出了范围。
As a result, I decided to start supplementing with nattokinase, which can naturally help reduce LDL cholesterol.
因此，我决定开始补充纳豆激酶，它自然可以帮助降低低密度脂蛋白胆固醇。
And it did.
确实如此。
In a follow-up test, I could confirm that this strategy worked.
在后续测试中，我可以确认这个策略是有效的。
My blood lipids are now back exactly where I want them.
我的血脂现在完全回到了我想要的水平。
Comprehensive lab testing of the sort that Function offers is just so important for health.
Function 提供的全面实验室测试对于健康非常重要。
I mean, how else are you going to know what's going on under the hood?
我的意思是，你还怎么知道幕后发生了什么？
And while I've been doing blood work for years, it used to be time-consuming, complicated, and expensive.
虽然我从事血液检查已有多年，但它过去非常耗时、复杂且昂贵。
In fact, I used to spend thousands of dollars per year trying to get this kind of data, and the data, frankly, were not all that good.
事实上，我曾经每年花费数千美元试图获得此类数据，但坦率地说，这些数据并不那么好。
But now with Function, it's extremely easy and affordable.
但现在有了 Function，它变得非常简单且经济实惠。
A Function membership is only a dollar a day, $365 a year.
Function 会员每天仅需 1 美元，每年 365 美元。
And if you think about the information it provides and the health challenges it helps you avoid and the proactive things that it can do for you to enhance your health, I truly look at it as a savings.
如果您考虑一下它提供的信息、它可以帮助您避免的健康挑战以及它可以为您增强健康所做的积极主动的事情，我确实将其视为一种节省。
To learn more, visit functionhealth.com/huberman and use the code Huberman for a $50 credit towards your membership.
要了解更多信息，请访问 functionhealth.com/huberman 并使用代码 Huberman 获得 50 美元的会员积分。
Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman.
同样，这是 functionhealth.com/huberman。
At the opposite extreme, what happens when I go to the MoMA and I see a piece of art that just for some reason makes me feel a certain way, maybe sadness, maybe happiness.
在另一个极端，当我去现代艺术博物馆，看到一件艺术品，出于某种原因让我有某种感觉，也许是悲伤，也许是幸福时，会发生什么。
Do you think that art of that sort is able to capture the circuitry related to particular emotions across people?
您认为此类艺术能够捕捉与人们特定情感相关的回路吗？
So not just about my unique experience.
所以不仅仅是我独特的经历。
And art is subjective, right?
艺术是主观的，对吧？
So there's-
所以有——
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
things related to taste.
与味道有关的东西。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But let's assume this is abstract art, so there's no apparent faces or animals, or no depictions of scenes.
但我们假设这是抽象艺术，因此没有明显的面孔或动物，也没有场景的描绘。
But let's say out of 100 people, more than half say, "Yeah, I look at that and I just feel peace." Is it the case that some art can tap into neural circuits or some music can tap into neural circuits-
但假设在 100 个人中，超过一半的人会说：“是的，我看着那个，我感到很平静。”是不是有些艺术可以进入神经回路，或者有些音乐可以进入神经回路——
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
independent of the lyrics?
与歌词无关？
I mean, we don't have the brain imaging, presumably, but there is a more sophisticated example.
我的意思是，我们可能没有大脑成像，但有一个更复杂的例子。
We're not regressing to the hypothalamus.
我们并没有退回到下丘脑。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yes, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But this is the stuff that, the richness of life is also about that.
但这就是生命的丰富性所在。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
And so the interesting question is which particular features in the music or in the abstract art is it that are driving those generalizable emotion responses?
因此，有趣的问题是，音乐或抽象艺术中的哪些特定特征正在驱动这些普遍的情绪反应？
And they're certainly there.
他们肯定在那里。
One of the earliest studies on emotion actually was done by Anne Blood and Robert Zatorre in the mid-'90s or something, I believe using, I'm pretty sure, using positron emission tomography, PET, rather than fMRI at the time.
关于情绪的最早研究之一实际上是由 Anne Blood 和 Robert Zatorre 在 90 年代中期完成的，我相信当时使用的是正电子发射断层扫描 PET，而不是 fMRI，我很确定。
And what they did was they played music to people, and I think they set it up so that you and I could hear the same piece of music.
他们所做的就是向人们播放音乐，我认为他们这样做是为了让你和我可以听到同一首音乐。
In your case, the music really does something for you, and the particular measure was does it send shivers down your spine?
就你而言，音乐确实对你有帮助，具体的衡量标准是它是否会让你的脊椎发凉？
Do you get like chills, goosebumps from listening to the music?
听音乐你是否感到浑身发冷、起鸡皮疙瘩？
And it does that for you, but not for me.
它为你做到这一点，但不为我做到。
And in your case, same auditory stimulus, different emotion, and from the imaging, they show that the insula, the structure we're just talking about, the amygdala, several of these emotion-related structures are indeed activated when you have shivers, chills down your spine listening to music.
就你的情况而言，相同的听觉刺激，不同的情绪，从成像来看，它们表明，当你听音乐时颤抖、脊椎发冷时，脑岛，我们刚才谈论的结构，杏仁核，其中一些与情绪相关的结构确实被激活。
For abstract art, my Caltech colleague, John O'Doherty, had a paper a little while ago where again, he found something generalizable.
对于抽象艺术，我的加州理工学院同事约翰·奥多尔蒂（John O'Doherty）不久前发表了一篇论文，他再次发现了一些可以概括的东西。
He decomposed abstract art into the constituent sort of visual features that you can feed it into a neural network and get a representation of all the different shades and colors and the basic visual composition, basic visual features that constitute that.
他将抽象艺术分解为视觉特征的组成类型，您可以将其输入神经网络并获得所有不同色调和颜色的表示以及构成其的基本视觉构成和基本视觉特征。
And from that, you can reconstitute whether or not it is liked or not liked, whether it's pleasant, whether people find it pleasant or unpleasant.
由此，你可以重构它是喜欢还是不喜欢，它是否令人愉快，人们是否觉得它令人愉快或不愉快。
So it doesn't come out of nowhere.
所以它不是凭空出现的。
Yes, there's something about even if it's abstract, even if it's abstract music, or if it's abstract art, there's some auditory or visual features there that are generalizable and that can be used to evoke emotions.
是的，即使它是抽象的，即使它是抽象音乐，或者如果它是抽象艺术，也有一些可概括的听觉或视觉特征，可以用来唤起情感。
And the big question then is, can we link that back?
那么最大的问题是，我们可以将其链接回来吗？
Obviously, the emotions didn't evolve in order to appreciate abstract art, but they evolved to detect tigers and bears and other things.
显然，情感并不是为了欣赏抽象艺术而进化的，而是为了检测老虎、熊和其他东西而进化的。
Well, are there similar kinds of visual features?
那么，是否存在类似的视觉特征？
Presumably, there are.
想必是有的。
So there's some visual features in the real world- That for which particular emotions evolved that can also then find a place again in abstract art and evoke similar emotions.
因此，现实世界中存在一些视觉特征，特定的情感为此而进化，然后也可以在抽象艺术中再次找到一席之地并唤起类似的情感。
That's the basic story.
这就是基本的故事。
But the answer to your question is yes, even for these very uniquely human sort of abstract kinds of stimuli, people have done work and found particular features in those stimuli that will trigger emotion states in humans.
但你的问题的答案是肯定的，即使对于这些非常独特的人类抽象刺激，人们也已经做了工作并发现了这些刺激中会触发人类情绪状态的特定特征。
And they're great stimuli to use.
它们是很好的刺激物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Talk a little bit about hardwiring versus learned emotional states at the brain level.
谈谈大脑层面的硬连线与后天习得的情绪状态。
We know there are brain areas that process faces, just the organization of two dots and a vertical line and a horizontal line below it.
我们知道大脑中存在处理面孔的区域，只是由两个点及其下方的一条垂直线和一条水平线组成的。
There are neurons that like that organization of features, and I should know the answer to the next question, but I don't.
有些神经元喜欢这种特征组织，我应该知道下一个问题的答案，但我不知道。
Are there neurons that are tuned to a smiling face versus a frowning face at the level of almost like very sparse emoji-like level?
是否有神经元在几乎非常稀疏的表情符号级别上调整到笑脸和皱眉脸？
We call them units in the brain.
我们称它们为大脑中的单位。
Are there units that are tuned to frowning faces or smiling faces?
是否有适合皱眉或笑脸的装置？
And of course, you'd love to be able to do the experiment in somebody who had never been exposed to them for the first time, but that's impossible to do.
当然，您希望能够在从未第一次接触过它们的人身上进行实验，但这是不可能的。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have to assume the experiment has been at least thought about, if not done.
我必须假设这个实验即使没有做过，至少也被考虑过。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It's a great question.
这是一个很好的问题。
With respect to face processing in general, the sort of consensus is it's both hardwired and innate in some sense that there's something there in the brain already at birth that's experience independent.
就一般的面部处理而言，某种共识是，从某种意义上说，它既是硬连线的，也是与生俱来的，即大脑在出生时就已经存在一些与体验无关的东西。
But then it also depends on normal maturation and development and experience.
但这也取决于正常的成熟、发展和经验。
And so people like Rebecca Saxe at MIT, for instance-
例如，像麻省理工学院的丽贝卡·萨克斯这样的人——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
...
...
has done functional neuroimaging studies on babies and shown them faces and asked the question, how does this pulse system develop?
对婴儿进行了功能性神经影像研究，并向他们展示了面孔，并提出了这样的问题：这种脉冲系统是如何发育的？
It's always a mixture.
它始终是一种混合物。
People tend to think in terms of black and white.
人们倾向于以非黑即白的方式思考。
It's hardwired and innate or it's learned.
它是与生俱来的，或者是后天习得的。
Nothing is either/or.
没有什么是非此即彼的。
A good example is the visual word form area.
一个很好的例子是视觉词形区域。
So there's regions in the brain like the ones that my former Caltech colleague Doris Tsao studied that are specialized for faces, but there's also a region in the brain, typically on the left in most people, that's for recognizing words, letters.
因此，大脑中有一些区域，就像我在加州理工学院的前同事 Doris Tsao 研究的那样，专门负责面部识别，但大脑中也有一个区域，通常位于大多数人的左侧，负责识别单词、字母。
Now, that couldn't have evolved because we had a long history of brain evolution before language, written language, was ever there.
现在，这是不可能进化的，因为在语言、书面语言出现之前，我们的大脑进化已有很长的历史。
So the question is, how does it come about?
那么问题来了，它是如何产生的呢？
It can't be hardwired or innate because there wasn't long enough evolutionary time to evolve a region of the brain for figuring out words.
它不可能是天生的或天生的，因为没有足够长的进化时间来进化出大脑的一个区域来理解单词。
But if you take a look in pre-verbal infants at the connectivity of this region that's going to become specialized for processing words, once the infant can read, it's already wired up in a way to other brain regions that predisposes it to be able to do those computations that with experience it can later be used in order to recognize words.
但是，如果你观察一下不会说话的婴儿，这个区域的连接性将变得专门用于处理单词，一旦婴儿能够阅读，它就已经以某种方式连接到其他大脑区域，使其能够进行那些计算，随着经验的积累，它可以在以后用于识别单词。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
So there's certain preset innate-
所以有一定的先天预设——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
...
...
systems.
系统。
Coming back to your question, smiling versus frowning faces, there are two parts to it.
回到你的问题，微笑与皱眉，有两个部分。
The first part is I can find you a single neuron in the brain that responds selectively for anything you like.
第一部分是我可以在你的大脑中找到一个神经元，它可以选择性地对你喜欢的任何东西做出反应。
There's no shortage of them.
他们并不缺乏。
But those in general, those single neurons don't do anything.
但一般来说，那些单个神经元不会做任何事情。
They aren't important to understand how the brain works because the rest of the brain that is getting its input from all these neurons and all the downstream processing is not like a reflex.
它们对于理解大脑如何工作并不重要，因为从所有这些神经元获取输入的大脑其余部分以及所有下游处理并不像反射。
It's not listening to only that one neuron.
它不仅仅听那一个神经元的声音。
It's getting input from tens of thousands of neurons.
它从数以万计的神经元获取输入。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
So at the population level, if we record from thousands of neurons and we ask from that, is there information in a thousand neurons from which the rest of the brain listening to those thousand neurons, or we as the scientist could decode smiles versus frowns, the answer is yes.
因此，在群体水平上，如果我们记录数千个神经元，并从中询问，大脑的其余部分是否可以从一千个神经元中听到这千个神经元的信息，或者我们作为科学家可以解码微笑与皱眉，答案是肯定的。
We've done that in collaboration with Ueli Rutishauser and Shuo Wang and colleagues where we can record from epilepsy patients, like what Eddie Chang does, same kind of work.
我们与 Ueli Rutishauser 和 Shuo Wang 及其同事合作完成了这项工作，我们可以记录癫痫患者的情况，就像 Eddie Chang 所做的那样，进行同样的工作。
And so you have information, and of course, if you think about it, there has to be information in the brain neurons that would distinguish frowns from smiles because you can distinguish them.
所以你就有了信息，当然，如果你仔细想想，大脑神经元中一定有信息可以区分皱眉和微笑，因为你可以区分它们。
So where else would it come from?
那么它还会从哪里来呢？
It has to be there in the brain.
它必须存在于大脑中。
But it's not there mechanistically at the level of single neurons.
但它在机制上并不存在于单个神经元的水平上。
They're very noisy.
他们很吵。
They typically respond to many different types of cues.
他们通常会对许多不同类型的提示做出反应。
So you always have to think about hundreds or thousands, a large ensemble of neurons.
所以你总是必须考虑数百或数千个神经元的大型集合。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Because that's really the kind of unit of relevant information because that's what the rest of the brain listens to.
因为这确实是一种相关信息的单位，因为这就是大脑其他部分所听到的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I was thinking about how in a hierarchical system like the visual system, we have neurons that are tuned to circles, more or less, center surround, we talk about them.
我在想，在像视觉系统这样的分层系统中，我们如何将神经元调整为圆形，或多或少地围绕中心，我们如何谈论它们。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But circles, then bars, then oriented bars of a particular angle, then moving bars, et cetera.
但是圆形，然后是条形，然后是特定角度的定向条形，然后是移动条形，等等。
And so built up from simple stuff-
就这样由简单的东西构建而成-
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to more complex stuff so you can build feature detectors for lots of different things.
到更复杂的东西，这样你就可以为许多不同的东西构建特征检测器。
I guess I was wondering when we come into the world, are there cells in the fusiform area that not just like faces, but that are prepared to respond to Two dots, the eyes, a vertical thing, the nose, and then a bar that is either bent up at the edges or bent down at the edges.
我想我想知道当我们来到这个世界时，梭状区域中是否有细胞不仅像面孔，而且准备对两个点做出反应：眼睛，一个垂直的东西，鼻子，然后是一个边缘向上弯曲或边缘向下弯曲的条。
And then we build on that scaffold.
然后我们就在这个脚手架上进行构建。
I don't know that anyone's done these experiments, but-
我不知道有人做过这些实验，但是-
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Not that exact experiment, but I think that in broad strokes, the answer would be that at birth, it's crude, and it becomes much more refined and more granular through experience.
不是那个精确的实验，但我认为从广义上讲，答案是，它在出生时是粗糙的，并且通过经验变得更加精致和细致。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
And then, indeed, exactly what you said happens.
然后，确实，正如你所说的那样发生了。
And coming back to emotions, if you think about how does the state of fear come about in the brain from seeing the bear or the tiger?
回到情感上，如果你想一下看到熊或老虎时大脑中的恐惧状态是如何产生的？
Well, at the level of the retina, it's just a bunch of pixels.
嗯，在视网膜层面，它只是一堆像素。
It's some blobby black shape that is looming and coming closer, et cetera.
它是某种黑色斑点的形状，正在若隐若现、越来越近，等等。
But then progressively, you have to construct more and more abstract representations.
但渐渐地，你必须构建越来越多的抽象表示。
And you well know how this works in the visual system and artificial systems, deep convolutional neural networks that do object classification do exactly that.
你很清楚这在视觉系统和人工系统中是如何工作的，进行对象分类的深度卷积神经网络正是这样做的。
They take just pixel-wise input, but then build something abstract.
他们只接受像素输入，然后构建一些抽象的东西。
Like right now, I recognize Andrew Huberman there.
就像现在，我认出安德鲁·胡伯曼在那里。
If I look over here, I can still recognize you.
如果我看这里，我仍然能认出你。
Whether you're on the left or the right, whether you're close or far away, I would be able to recognize you invariantly with respect to those details, even though at the level of the retina, like a camera taking a picture, the detailed pixels can be vastly different.
无论你在左边还是右边，无论你离得很近还是很远，我都能在这些细节上一致地认出你，即使在视网膜层面，就像相机拍照一样，细节像素可能会有很大不同。
You can be left or right or close or lit in different ways, and you need to abstract from that an invariant representation, regardless of the details.
您可以以不同的方式向左或向右、靠近或照亮，并且您需要从该表示中抽象出不变的表示，而不管细节如何。
Same thing for emotions.
对于情感来说也是如此。
Regardless of whether it's a bear or a tiger or a big-arm pickup truck coming at you, or lots of other kinds of stimuli, they all need to funnel in to a central abstract representation.
无论是熊、老虎、大臂皮卡车向你驶来，还是许多其他类型的刺激，它们都需要汇集到一个中心抽象表示中。
That's another key feature of emotions.
这是情绪的另一个关键特征。
They require abstraction.
它们需要抽象。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
And that's what makes them so flexible.
这就是它们如此灵活的原因。
And that's where you can get, David Anderson and I have described it in our book as this sort of fan-in, fan-out architecture.
这就是你可以得到的地方，大卫·安德森和我在我们的书中将其描述为这种扇入、扇出架构。
I can get to the emotion state from seeing a bear or smelling a bear or hearing a bear or hearing a twig snap, hearing somebody yell, "There's a bear." Zillions of different inputs, completely unlike the rigid reflex, which only has one input, and that's it.
我可以通过看到熊、闻到熊、听到熊、听到树枝折断、听到有人大喊“有一只熊”来进入情绪状态。有无数种不同的输入，完全不同于只有一种输入的刚性反射，仅此而已。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
They get the central state of fear, and then the outputs are also diverse.
他们得到了恐惧的中心状态，然后输出也是多种多样的。
I can hide, I can run away, I can defend myself.
我可以躲起来，我可以逃跑，我可以保护自己。
And so that flexibility that the central emotion state affords, you can get to it in many different ways because many different sensory cues are informative about a potential threat, and then you can behave in very flexible ways that are context-dependent.
因此，中心情绪状态提供的灵活性，您可以通过许多不同的方式来实现它，因为许多不同的感官线索都可以提供有关潜在威胁的信息，然后您可以根据上下文以非常灵活的方式行事。
That's exactly what emotions allow you to do and what makes them so different from reflexes.
这正是情绪允许你做的事情，也是情绪与条件反射的不同之处。
Reflexes is just a single path through.
反射只是一条单一的路径。
There's only one way to trigger it, and there's only one behavior.
只有一种方法可以触发它，也只有一种行为。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
So if you had only those, you would have to have a separate reflex for the bear and for the tiger and for every possible large threat out there, which you couldn't possibly have.
因此，如果你只有这些，你就必须对熊和老虎以及每一种可能存在的巨大威胁有单独的反应，而这是你不可能有的。
It's not efficient.
这效率不高。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
The fan-in, fan-out visual is very, very useful, and it gets to the next topic I'd like to ask you about, which is building social intelligence and emotional intelligence, because we define that different ways.
扇入、扇出的视觉效果非常非常有用，它涉及到我想问你的下一个主题，即建立社交智力和情商，因为我们定义不同的方式。
People who seem unable to read the room, so to speak, versus people who are hypersensitive to other people's emotions, not necessarily responding to them, but they're really in tune.
可以这么说，那些似乎无法读懂房间的人，与那些对其他人的情绪高度敏感的人，不一定会对他们做出反应，但他们确实很合拍。
I'll go out on a limb and say that some of the happiest, most functional, and when I say functional, I also include in that they take great care of the people around them, their families, their coworkers, people that I know and have observed are not super emotionally in tune with the emotions of others, meaning it doesn't seem like they're clocking every little nuance.
我会大胆地说，一些最快乐、最实用的人，当我说实用时，我还包括他们非常照顾周围的人、他们的家人、他们的同事，我认识和观察到的人在情感上与他人的情绪并不完全一致，这意味着他们似乎并没有注意到每一个细微差别。
And some of the more, I'm generalizing here, less functional, more labile people that I've known are really in tune with what everyone in the room is feeling, who did this, who didn't do that.
我在这里概括地说，我所认识的一些功能较弱、更不稳定的人确实与房间里每个人的感受一致，谁做了这个，谁没有这样做。
And going back to our earlier conversation, that so much of how we gauge other people's emotions is an integration over how often they tend to acknowledge us when we walk down the hall.
回到我们之前的谈话，我们衡量他人情绪的方式很大程度上取决于我们走过大厅时他们倾向于认可我们的频率。
If the first time I met you, you walked right by me, which who knows what would have happened, and the second time, and the third time, and then the fourth time you say, "Good morning," I'd say, "Oh, this is a really delightful person." If you did the opposite, said hello, hello, hello three times in a row-
如果第一次见到你，你从我身边走过，谁知道会发生什么，第二次、第三次、第四次你说“早上好”，我会说，“哦，这是一个非常令人愉快的人。”如果你反其道而行之，连续说三遍你好，你好，你好——
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
And then stop
然后停下来
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and then the fourth time-
然后第四次——
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
just looked at me and brushed right by, I'd probably think, "That's weird." So there's some advantage, actually, to not being in tune with all the subtle cues of everyone around us.
只是看着我然后擦身而过，我可能会想，“这很奇怪。”因此，实际上，不与我们周围每个人的所有微妙暗示保持一致是有一些好处的。
What in the brain is known about social awareness, about reading the room?
大脑对于社会意识、阅读房间了解多少？
We talk it up these days because indeed, empathy's important, but-
这些天我们谈论这个问题是因为同理心确实很重要，但是——
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
this is a tricky one.
这是一个棘手的问题。
I'm going to get some heat for saying this, but there's also a lot to be said for walking into a room, acknowledging, "Okay, great," and then getting your work done.
我会因为这样说而感到愤怒，但走进一个房间，承认“好吧，太好了”，然后完成你的工作，也有很多话要说。
You don't want to be wrapped up into people's emotional states unnecessarily, because they're labile.
你不想不必要地陷入人们的情绪状态，因为他们是不稳定的。
They're all over the place.
他们到处都是。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's a cost.
这是有代价的。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Well, I think it's extremely heterogeneous, and so it's not one size fits all, and there's not one type of emotional intelligence skill that fits all occasions.
嗯，我认为它是极其异质的，所以它不是一刀切的，也没有一种情商技能适合所有场合。
And many different kinds can work.
许多不同的类型都可以工作。
They depend on the context.
它们取决于上下文。
It depends on the circumstances.
这取决于具体情况。
Initially, when James Gross had emotion regulation, it was focused on some basic mechanisms like suppression, reappraisal, acceptance.
最初，詹姆斯·格罗斯进行情绪调节时，主要关注一些基本机制，如抑制、重新评估、接受。
And now, the big two topics on emotion regulation are variability and flexibility.
现在，情绪调节的两大主题是可变性和灵活性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
So there's not just one way, but you need to be able to have many, many different options, and you can vary your emotion regulation responses.
所以方法不只有一种，你需要能够有很多很多不同的选择，并且你可以改变你的情绪调节反应。
But the other big part of emotion regulation, which is obvious once you think about it, any parent would think about it, is it's interpersonal.
但情绪调节的另一个重要部分是人际交往，只要你仔细想想，任何父母都会想到这一点，这是显而易见的。
It's between people.
这是人与人之间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
You regulate other people's emotions, and you have to pick up on other people's emotions, and you influence other people's emotions.
你调节别人的情绪，你就要感知别人的情绪，你影响别人的情绪。
It's a bidirectional interaction.
这是一种双向互动。
And so I think a big part of emotional intelligence comes from being able to read that probably in a fairly automatic way and in a context-dependent way.
因此，我认为情商的很大一部分来自于能够以相当自动的方式和依赖于上下文的方式来阅读。
And depending on the context, it can be the case that what's most adaptive is if you really get involved with other people and you really talk to them a lot, you're very empathic, or you just take over And that can work too, depending on the circumstances.
根据具体情况，最有适应性的情况可能是，如果你真正与其他人交往，你真的与他们交谈很多，你非常有同理心，或者你只是接管这也可以工作，具体取决于具体情况。
So there are multiple strategies, and I think for any of these social intelligence, emotional regulation, any of these sort of metacognitive skills, the most successful skill is if you don't just have one, but you have variety, and you can switch between them, and you can use context to switch between those.
因此，有多种策略，我认为对于任何这些社交智力、情绪调节、任何此类元认知技能，最成功的技能是，如果你不仅拥有一种技能，而且拥有多种技能，并且你可以在它们之间切换，并且你可以使用上下文在这些技能之间切换。
Just like physiological heart rate variability, you don't want to train to just be able to have a low heart rate.
就像生理心率变异一样，您不希望训练时只是为了获得较低的心率。
You want to be able to train to have a variable, a big range.
你希望能够训练有一个变量，一个大范围。
Same thing with emotions.
情感也是如此。
What's most adaptive is being able to have a big range of emotions and being able to switch adaptively, depending on the context between them.
最具适应性的是能够拥有大范围的情绪，并能够根据情绪之间的背景进行适应性切换。
And I think that's where real long-term, context-dependent social intelligence for people that really come out ahead.
我认为，这才是真正领先的人真正长期的、与环境相关的社交智能的所在。
It's not one tiny slice where they do well and they don't do well in lots of other circumstances.
他们在很多其他情况下表现不佳的地方并不是一小部分。
It's the ability to be really adaptive and flexible and switch around.
这是真正的适应性、灵活性和转换能力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which requires a keen sense of oneself, like where we are in our internal state-
这需要对自己有敏锐的感觉，比如我们的内在状态——
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and a keen sense of context.
以及对环境的敏锐感知。
In fact, I observed a really impressive physician recently, moving through the hospital environment.
事实上，我最近在医院环境中观察到一位非常令人印象深刻的医生。
He was just like all agency.
他就像所有机构一样。
But then with the patient, it was as if he dropped into a bubble.
但对于病人来说，他就像掉进了一个泡沫里。
The patient was understandably a little nervous about what was to come, and it was remarkable.
病人对即将发生的事情感到有点紧张，这是可以理解的，这是值得注意的。
I was like, "Okay, that is superb bedside manner." But then, it comes time to do the actual work, and that's not a time for emotion.
我当时想，“好吧，这是极好的床边态度。”但是，到了做实际工作的时候了，那不是情绪激动的时候。
It's just like 100-
就好像100-
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
You have to be able to switch
你必须能够切换
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
100%.
100%。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The life and well-being of the patient relies on being absolutely focused on the task at hand.
患者的生命和福祉依赖于完全专注于手头的任务。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
It's related, again, to the presumptive association between emotional granularity, what Lisa Feldman Barrett pioneered decades ago, the ability to differentiate and be aware of all the variety of emotions in you, and emotion regulation flexibility.
它再次与情绪粒度（丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特几十年前开创的）、区分和意识到你内心各种情绪的能力以及情绪调节灵活性之间的假定关联有关。
That you're able to adopt many different emotion regulation strategies, but in order to do so, you need the emotional granularity to be able to be aware of all the different emotions that are going on in the first place.
你能够采取许多不同的情绪调节策略，但为了做到这一点，你需要情绪粒度，以便能够首先意识到正在发生的所有不同情绪。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
It's pretty two things.
这是两件事。
One is an ability to differentiate at a very fine grain, and the other one is to step back and have some kind of metacognitive oversight and control, so you can say, "Okay, here's this full spectrum of things I could do," and you can take a look at all of those, incorporate the context, and pick the one path amongst many that you could take that's the most adaptive.
一种是精细区分的能力，另一种是退后一步，进行某种元认知监督和控制，所以你可以说，“好吧，这是我能做的所有事情”，你可以看一下所有这些，结合上下文，然后在众多路径中选择一条你可以采取的最具适应性的路径。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's interesting.
这很有趣。
Some of my favorite scientists are very emotive people, and then some of my favorite scientists, I'm thinking of one in particular when I was down at UC San Diego, when my lab was there.
我最喜欢的一些科学家都是非常情绪化的人，然后我最喜欢的一些科学家，特别是当我在加州大学圣地亚哥分校时，我的实验室就在那里的时候。
Most people would probably label as a little bit on the spectrum.
大多数人可能会认为自己在这个范围内有一点点。
I won't mention his name.
我不会提及他的名字。
He would walk into a faculty meeting where someone else was presenting, and he would say out loud to me, sitting there, like, "Is this any good?" And-
他会走进一个其他人正在演讲的教员会议，他会坐在那儿大声对我说，“这有什么好处吗？”还有——
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
I have encountered people like that, too.
我也遇到过这样的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
And it's-
这是——
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
It's very disconcerting when you're giving the talk.
当你演讲的时候，这是非常令人不安的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's disconcerting when you're giving the talk, but I was going to say, there's also something incredibly refreshing about it because it's almost like they're asking the questions that they need to ask.
当你发表演讲时，这会让人感到不安，但我想说，其中也有一些令人难以置信的耳目一新的东西，因为这几乎就像他们在问他们需要问的问题一样。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're a little embarrassed for them, but it's liberating.
你为他们感到有点尴尬，但这是一种解放。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You feel like, ah, we've broken the social mold here a little bit.
你会觉得，啊，我们已经稍微打破了这里的社会模式。
And someone would say, "Excuse me, so-and-so.
有人会说：“对不起，某某。
So-and-so's presenting," and be like, "Oh, sorry," and then would just sit down and then listen.
某某正在演讲”，然后说“哦，对不起”，然后就坐下来听。
They're entirely polite, very actively engaged in the conversation, but I sometimes wish, how cool would that be?
他们非常有礼貌，非常积极地参与对话，但有时我希望，那该有多酷？
I'm sure there's a cost other areas in life, but how cool would that be?
我确信生活中的其他方面都会付出代价，但这有多酷呢？
This person has a little bit less context-dependent flex-
这个人的语境依赖性灵活性稍差一些——
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
flexibility around emotions.
围绕情绪的灵活性。
And I have to imagine that they move through life in a way that's kind of liberated.
我必须想象他们以一种自由的方式度过生活。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Well, they wouldn't have this huge cognitive load all the time.
好吧，他们不会一直承受如此巨大的认知负担。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
And he's extremely smart.
而且他非常聪明。
Now, that's correlative, right?
现在，这是相关的，对吧？
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But incredible, actually a physicist turned neuroscientist, and I just thought, man, that's pretty cool.
但令人难以置信的是，实际上是一位物理学家变成了神经科学家，我只是想，伙计，这太酷了。
And then the more you go into engineering and science fields, the more of these people you encounter.
然后，你越深入工程和科学领域，你遇到的这些人就越多。
This is true.
这是真实的。
You see fewer of these people in the performing arts, for instance.
例如，你在表演艺术领域看到的这些人就更少了。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Sure.
当然。
My lab studies autism, amongst other things, and you certainly would have the case that as a spectrum, yes, indeed, you would have mathematicians, engineers, lots of people who are very successful who are on the spectrum to some extent.
我的实验室研究自闭症等，你肯定会遇到这样的情况，作为一个谱系，是的，确实，你会有数学家、工程师，以及许多非常成功的人，他们在某种程度上属于这个谱系。
And I think, coming back to what you were saying, it's sort of liberating or simplifying.
我认为，回到你所说的，这有点解放或简化。
If you had to really effortfully, cognitively think about how to regulate your social behavior and make all the right moves and not offend anybody, you were worried about that all the time, it would be overwhelming.
如果你必须真正努力地、认知地思考如何规范你的社交行为并采取所有正确的行动而不冒犯任何人，你一直担心这一点，这将是压倒性的。
And I think it is overwhelming for many people with autism, that you need to somehow internalize it, and it has to be relatively effortless and automatic.
我认为对于许多患有自闭症的人来说，这是压倒性的，你需要以某种方式内化它，而且它必须相对轻松和自动。
It has to become automatic at some level.
它必须在某种程度上变得自动化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
And then you can move through life fairly smoothly in a socially very complex way, and that's what's difficult for many people with autism, that they lack that part.
然后你就可以以一种非常复杂的社交方式相当顺利地度过生活，这对许多自闭症患者来说是困难的，因为他们缺乏这部分。
They can compensate to some extent, but the cognitive load starts really being an impediment, because if you have to track everything, you have to remember, okay, I should make eye contact.
它们可以在某种程度上进行补偿，但认知负荷开始真正成为障碍，因为如果你必须跟踪一切，你必须记住，好吧，我应该进行眼神交流。
I have to remember turn-taking.
我必须记住轮流。
If you have to cognitively remember all those things, it's just overwhelming, so you have to be able to somehow have it be automatic at some level.
如果你必须在认知上记住所有这些事情，那就太难以承受了，所以你必须能够以某种方式让它在某种程度上自动进行。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, LMNT.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 LMNT。
LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't.
LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您需要的一切，没有您不需要的东西。
That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in the correct ratios, but no sugar.
这意味着电解质、钠、镁和钾的比例都正确，但不含糖。
Proper hydration is critical for brain and body function.
适当的水合作用对于大脑和身体功能至关重要。
Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish your cognitive and physical performance.
即使是轻微程度的脱水也会降低您的认知和身体表现。
It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes.
获得充足的电解质也很重要。
The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, are vital for the functioning of all cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells.
电解质（钠、镁和钾）对于体内所有细胞（尤其是神经元或神经细胞）的功能至关重要。
Drinking LMNT makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes.
饮用 LMNT 可以轻松确保您获得足够的水分和电解质。
My days tend to start really fast, meaning I have to jump right into work or right into exercise.
我的日子往往开始得很快，这意味着我必须立即投入工作或立即锻炼。
So to make sure that I'm hydrated and I have sufficient electrolytes, when I first wake up in the morning, I drink 16 to 32 ounces of water with an LMNT packet dissolved in it.
因此，为了确保我有足够的水分和足够的电解质，当我早上第一次醒来时，我会喝 16 至 32 盎司的水，其中溶解有 LMNT 包。
I also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes.
我还会在进行任何体育锻炼时饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT，尤其是在炎热的日子里，当我大量出汗并失去水和电解质时。
LMNT has a bunch of great-tasting flavors.
LMNT 有很多美味的口味。
In fact, I love them all.
事实上，我爱他们所有人。
I love the watermelon, the raspberry, the citrus, and I really love the lemonade flavor.
我喜欢西瓜、覆盆子、柑橘，而且我真的很喜欢柠檬水的味道。
So if you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with any purchase.
因此，如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman，购买任意商品即可领取免费的 LMNT 样品包。
Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.
再次强调，请访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman 索取免费样品包。
Let's talk about autism, and I'll just put the mention up front because this is a topic that sometimes gets people triggered.
让我们来谈谈自闭症，我只是把它放在前面，因为这是一个有时会让人触发的话题。
Let's leave out for the time being, not because it isn't important, it is important, let's leave out severe cases of autism where people need lifelong care, they can't care for themselves.
让我们暂时忽略，不是因为它不重要，重要的是，让我们忽略严重的自闭症病例，人们需要终身护理，他们无法照顾自己。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And let's talk about the rest of the spectrum.
我们来谈谈其余的范围。
Already in that statement, I'm sure I violated some of the newer nomenclature, but let's just liberate ourselves a little bit, come at this from a place of benevolence and trying to understand social dynamics, social processing in the brain.
在该声明中，我确信我违反了一些新的术语，但让我们稍微解放一下自己，从仁慈的角度来理解这一点，并尝试理解社会动态、大脑中的社会处理。
So we're not talking about people with severe stereotypies who just need lifelong care even, et cetera.
因此，我们并不是在谈论那些有严重刻板印象的人，他们甚至只需要终身护理，等等。
We're talking about the rest of the category.
我们正在讨论该类别的其余部分。
So something like this former colleague of mine in San Diego, a little bit on the spectrum.
就像我在圣地亚哥的这位前同事一样，有点属于自闭症谱系障碍。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
For all I know, he may have been one of our participants-
据我所知，他可能是我们的参与者之一——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maybe
也许
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
...
...
in some of our studies.
在我们的一些研究中。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, a delightful person, happy marriage, happy family.
我的意思是，一个令人愉快的人，幸福的婚姻，幸福的家庭。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Everyone in his lab adored him.
他实验室里的每个人都很崇拜他。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And brilliant scientist, and by my read, highly functional in all aspects of life, but definitely not tuned in to what other people are thinking or doing, and context mattered, right?
一位杰出的科学家，根据我的阅读，他在生活的各个方面都非常有用，但绝对不了解其他人在想什么或在做什么，背景很重要，对吧？
I mean, he understood what not to do in a broad sense, but he was free of this burden that you describe.
我的意思是，他知道广义上不该做什么，但他没有你所描述的这种负担。
So there's a lot of emphasis nowadays on kids who have autism of the sort that we're describing, and the need, we're told, to train them to make eye contact and read faces.
因此，现在人们非常重视患有我们所描述的那种自闭症的孩子，并且我们被告知需要训练他们进行眼神交流和读懂面孔。
So this lands square in your work.
所以这在你的工作中是正确的。
Maybe you could just fill out a bit of what's now known, what's thought, what's not known.
也许你可以填写一些现在已知的、想到的、未知的内容。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
It's a great topic.
这是一个很棒的话题。
The way that I personally have approached it is not with a primary interest in autism.
我个人处理这个问题的方式并不是主要对自闭症感兴趣。
I don't have a family member who has autism.
我没有患有自闭症的家庭成员。
I don't have any personal experience.
我没有任何个人经历。
It's really been, just like with the amygdala lesion patient, my main motivation has been to just understand the mind, cognition, emotion in general, and with respect to autism, by understanding individual differences.
确实，就像杏仁核损伤患者一样，我的主要动机是通过了解个体差异来了解一般的思想、认知、情感，以及自闭症。
Everybody's different from everybody else, and autism is one particular dimension that we just have a lot of tools to look at, that is social interaction, social awareness, ability to read other people's emotions.
每个人都与其他人不同，自闭症是一个特殊的维度，我们有很多工具可以观察，那就是社交互动、社会意识、解读他人情绪的能力。
And so that dimension of social variability maps onto one of the facets of autism spectrum disorder.
因此，社会变异性的这一维度映射到了自闭症谱系障碍的一个方面。
And so that's why we've looked at both people who do not have any diagnosis of autism.
这就是为什么我们研究了没有任何自闭症诊断的两个人。
There's a range of autistic-like traits that you can quantify with questionnaires that are well-regarded.
您可以通过广受好评的调查问卷来量化一系列类似自闭症的特征。
And then once you get to a DSM-5 diagnosis, you have more and more severe cases of autism with respect to social functioning, that again, you can quantify using tools like the ADOS, et cetera.
一旦你得到 DSM-5 诊断，你就会发现在社会功能方面越来越严重的自闭症病例，同样，你可以使用 ADOS 等工具进行量化。
But it's a spectrum that I personally look at as a particularly interesting and important dimension of individual differences in social interactions with other people in my lab that have different motivations.
但我个人认为这是一个特别有趣和重要的维度，是与实验室中具有不同动机的其他人进行社交互动时个体差异的一个特别有趣和重要的维度。
They have family members with autism, for instance, so they're personally interested in autism as a psychiatric category.
例如，他们的家庭成员患有自闭症，因此他们个人对自闭症作为精神病学类别感兴趣。
But coming to your question, there's a lot of really interesting work and a lot of opportunities now that we've been actually using in our lab as well to look at the question of processing about faces, eye contact, et cetera.
但说到你的问题，现在我们已经在实验室中实际使用了很多非常有趣的工作和很多机会来研究有关面部、眼神接触等的处理问题。
Right now, how much eye contact are you making with me?
现在，你和我有多少目光接触？
How much eye contact am I making with you?
我和你有多少目光接触？
It is extremely variable.
它变化极大。
The eyes move around.
眼睛四处移动。
They carry a lot of information.
它们携带大量信息。
Socially, there's a gigantic range there.
在社交方面，存在着巨大的范围。
It's data that are now fairly easy to quantify and collect in hundreds or thousands of people using their webcams.
现在可以很容易地量化和收集数百或数千人使用网络摄像头的数据。
And so we have a study going on where people watch, for example, a Zoom video, other people interacting, talking, and we use the webcam on their laptop to record where they are looking on the screen when they have that Zoom video going on.
因此，我们正在进行一项研究，研究人们在观看 Zoom 视频时，其他人进行互动、交谈，我们使用他们笔记本电脑上的网络摄像头来记录他们在观看 Zoom 视频时在屏幕上看的位置。
So we can quantify across large numbers of people, and the basic finding has been that people who are further along, who score higher on this dimension of the autism spectrum of social interaction with just questionnaire-based measures or a psychiatric diagnosis, make less eye contact, and as well as other features.
因此，我们可以对大量的人进行量化，基本的发现是，那些在自闭症谱系的社交互动方面得分较高的人，仅通过基于问卷的测量或精神病学诊断，眼神接触和其他特征就较少。
So we're looking at contact with the person who's talking, distraction to other things.
所以我们要考虑的是与说话者的接触，以及对其他事情的干扰。
We have experimental features where there's a person talking, they're making eye contact, there's TV or something that goes on in the background, and we can quantify to what extent is your visual attention, your gaze, that we can quantify from the webcam, captured by somebody looking, somebody talking, somebody smiling or laughing, the TV going on in the background as a distractor.
我们有实验性的功能，其中有人说话，他们进行眼神交流，有电视或背景中正在播放的东西，我们可以量化你的视觉注意力，你的凝视的程度，我们可以从网络摄像头中量化，捕捉到有人在看，有人在说话，有人在微笑或大笑，背景中的电视作为干扰物。
And we can put all of that into a big model and ask, what is it that normally drives visual attention, and what is it that distinguishes people with autism and where they would look?
我们可以将所有这些放入一个大模型中并询问，通常会引起视觉注意力的是什么，以及是什么使自闭症患者与众不同以及他们会看向哪里？
And the basic answer is that the social features, like eyes or who's talking, have less of a weight on where autistic people would look than the distractors.
基本的答案是，与干扰因素相比，社交特征（例如眼睛或谁在说话）对自闭症患者看向的影响较小。
They tend to be more distracted, and that is, we've been doing this study every month now for a year, that seems to be a temporally stable personality trait-like feature of autism spectrum disorder.
他们往往更容易分心，也就是说，我们一年来每个月都在进行这项研究，这似乎是自闭症谱系障碍的一种暂时稳定的人格特质样特征。
So it fluctuates to some extent, and we're trying to quantify, does it interact with whether you've slept badly the night before, or you're stressed, or other things that can change, those do have an effect.
所以它会在一定程度上波动，我们正在尝试量化，它是否与你前一天晚上睡得不好，或者你是否有压力，或者其他可以改变的事情相互作用，这些确实会产生影响。
But the answer seems to be it's fairly temporally stable, and it's almost like a signature for individuals.
但答案似乎是它在时间上相当稳定，而且几乎就像个人的签名。
So there's some people that are real face lookers, and they look at faces a lot, and there's some people that look at faces hardly at all, and that seems to be stable across time and like a basic personality trait.
所以有些人是真正的看脸者，他们经常看脸，而有些人则几乎不看脸，这似乎随着时间的推移而稳定，就像一种基本的人格特质。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In this population of people diagnosed with autism.
在这个被诊断患有自闭症的人群中。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Across the board, for everybody.
全面、适合所有人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
If I just take the general population-
如果我只考虑一般人群——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Uh-huh
嗯嗯
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
...
...
on average, it's the case that those people who would have a diagnosis of autism or who score higher on autistic traits, even if they don't have a diagnosis, look less at faces.
平均而言，那些被诊断为自闭症或在自闭症特征上得分较高的人，即使没有被诊断出，也较少看面孔。
But across everybody, it's the case that some people look a lot at faces, some people don't, and that that's temporally stable.
但对于每个人来说，情况是有些人经常看面孔，有些人则不看，而且这是暂时稳定的。
So in general, right now, if you quantified from this podcast, how often do I make eye contact or look at you?
所以总的来说，现在，如果你从这个播客中进行量化，我多久会进行眼神交流或看着你？
And then you ask in a classroom or in a lab meeting, how often do I make eye contact?
然后你在课堂或实验室会议上问，我多久进行一次眼神交流？
It would be similar proportion, that I'm just not a face looker or eye looker, and you might be.
比例相似，我只是不看脸或看眼睛，而你可能是。
It's like a stable personality trait, and it's associated coarsely with this dimension in the autism spectrum disorder.
它就像一种稳定的人格特质，与自闭症谱系障碍的这个维度大致相关。
But of course, the million-dollar question is, what else is it associated with?
但当然，最重要的问题是，它还与什么相关？
Is it predictive of career success?
它可以预测职业成功吗？
Is it predictive of anything else?
它是否预示着其他事情？
And so we don't know.
所以我们不知道。
We're measuring everything else and getting lots of questionnaires on these people to ask what are the associations and is there any causal hypothesis that we would come up with that if you don't look at faces a lot, there's some consequences.
我们正在衡量其他一切，并收到大量关于这些人的调查问卷，询问这些人之间的关联是什么，是否存在因果假设，如果你不经常看面孔，就会产生一些后果。
If you look at faces a lot, there are other consequences.
如果你经常看脸，还会产生其他后果。
If that were the case, we're not there yet, that would make very interesting predictions, which may-- Well, maybe I should be looking at your face all the time-
如果是这样的话，我们还没有到那一步，那会做出非常有趣的预测，这可能——好吧，也许我应该一直看着你的脸——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, no, no
不，不，不
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
...
...
and the podcast would get a million hits, or who knows what.
然后播客就会获得一百万的点击量，谁知道会发生什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just be you, as we say.
正如我们所说，就做你自己吧。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Well, that's another big question which we're looking at in these longitudinal studies, which is a question of, to what extent can you change who you are?
嗯，这是我们在这些纵向研究中关注的另一个大问题，即你能在多大程度上改变你是谁？
And, we were talking about emotion regulation.
而且，我们正在谈论情绪调节。
You can regulate your emotions.
你可以调节自己的情绪。
You can have this metacognitive insight.
你可以获得这种元认知洞察力。
You can have some control.
你可以有一定的控制权。
Can you change if you're extrovert or neurotic?
如果你性格外向或神经质，你能改变吗？
Can you change your personality?
你能改变你的性格吗？
And the answer seems to be, to some extent.
答案似乎是，在某种程度上。
For some variables more than others, but we're trying to quantify that, so we have this big longitudinal data set where we give people tons and tons of questionnaires about their personality, about their mood, about lots of things, and are asking to what extent, over time, do they get pushed around and that can change, and which ones stay constant and constitutes the core of their personality that's unchangeable.
对于某些变量来说，比其他变量更多，但我们试图量化这一点，所以我们有这个大型纵向数据集，我们向人们提供大量关于他们的性格、他们的情绪、关于很多事情的调查问卷，并询问他们在多大程度上随着时间的推移而被摆布并且可以改变，以及哪些保持不变并构成了他们不可改变的性格的核心。
But I think it's a super interesting question.
但我认为这是一个非常有趣的问题。
What parts of you can change and what parts of you cannot?
你的哪些部分可以改变，哪些部分不能改变？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I think about this all the time.
是的，我一直在想这个。
I feel like some people, this is pseudoscientific, what I'm about to describe.
我觉得有些人，这是伪科学，我将要描述的。
They seem to have very high autonomic, what I call RPM.
他们似乎有很高的自主性，我称之为 RPM。
I have a-- It's more of a former colleague because I haven't been working in that field for a while, but if you ever see Botond Rosca-
我有一个——这更像是一位前同事，因为我已经有一段时间没有在该领域工作了，但如果你见过 Botond Rosca——
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
from Basel give a talk, he moves a lot.
来自巴塞尔的演讲，他移动了很多。
He's very electric.
他非常有电。
He's also very thin and he moves, and his brain, he's exceedingly smart.
他也很瘦，而且行动力强，而且他的大脑非常聪明。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
He has a high basal metabolic rate.
他的基础代谢率很高。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
High basal metabolic rate, and he-
基础代谢率高，而且
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Like a hummingbird.
就像蜂鸟一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, but he moves a lot, right?
是的，但他经常动，对吧？
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then other people, they move less.
然后其他人则移动得更少。
I think about this all the time because I'm fascinated by and I love dogs.
我一直在思考这个问题，因为我对狗着迷并且喜欢狗。
I go to this AKC Meet The Breeds thing every year.
我每年都会参加 AKC Meet The Breeds 活动。
I don't go every year.
我每年都不去。
They do it every year, but I highly recommend people go, even if you don't want a dog, because you get to see all the different genetic variation, which of course relates to body size, but also temperament, and if you just look at a-
他们每年都会这样做，但我强烈建议人们去，即使你不想要狗，因为你可以看到所有不同的遗传变异，这当然与体型有关，但也与气质有关，如果你只看-
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I mean, bulldogs are probably more on the slow, mellow side compared to Yorkshire Terriers that are more-
我的意思是，与约克夏犬相比，斗牛犬可能更缓慢、更温和，而约克夏犬更-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very little spontaneous movement.
自发运动很少。
I think it's one of the reasons why people feel comfortable approaching a bulldog, whereas pit bulls are always kind of winding around and moving.
我认为这是人们在接近斗牛犬时感觉很舒服的原因之一，而斗牛犬总是蜿蜒移动。
But some dogs, it may relate to other things, cuteness and whatnot, but some people just seem to have a lot of spontaneous movement.
但有些狗，它可能与其他事物有关，可爱之类的，但有些人似乎有很多自发的动作。
Other people-
其他人——
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
are more stable in their bodily movements.
他们的身体动作更加稳定。
And it does seem to relate to how excitable they are or not excitable they are.
这似乎确实与他们的兴奋程度或不兴奋程度有关。
So you can imagine if you're humming at a higher RPM, you can more prone to action-
所以你可以想象，如果你以更高的转速哼唱，你会更容易采取行动-
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
No, but it's-
不，但它是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or speech
或演讲
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
...
...
a super interesting observation because the question, of course, is to what extent does it relate to how their mind is working, right?
这是一个非常有趣的观察，因为问题当然是它与他们的思维方式有多大关系，对吗？
As we're talking now, and as you were just talking, we're moving our hands, we're moving our body, we're moving our face.
当我们现在说话时，正如你刚才说话时，我们正在移动我们的手，我们正在移动我们的身体，我们正在移动我们的脸。
We're not just sitting there speaking.
我们不只是坐在那里说话。
So to some extent, all of these bodily movements are interfaced with thought.
所以在某种程度上，所有这些身体动作都与思想相联系。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
If I had to sit completely still and not move, it would be pretty hard to have this conversation, right?
如果我必须完全坐着不动，那么对话就很难进行了，对吧？
So to some extent, bodily movements actually help us structure our thoughts.
所以在某种程度上，身体动作实际上可以帮助我们构建我们的思想。
It's not just like a large language model.
它不仅仅是一个大型语言模型。
It's not just language going on.
这不仅仅是语言的问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
It interfaces with the body.
它与身体相连。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
And it punctuates thoughts to some extent.
它在某种程度上打断了思想。
So I think it's super interesting, and it's certainly the case that the way that somebody moves their body does say something about how they're thinking as well.
所以我认为这非常有趣，而且确实有人移动身体的方式也确实说明了他们的想法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I've been reading my audiobook, and I asked them, the sound technicians, to allow me to stand while I read it.
是的，我一直在读我的有声读物，我请求他们，声音技术人员，允许我在阅读时站着。
Much easier to read an audiobook and to put inflection.
阅读有声读物和添加语调要容易得多。
You actually can lean in when you want to emphasize something, and you can point-
当你想强调某件事时，你实际上可以靠过来，你可以指出——
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to the words for a moment, but then when you need to work through a passage that needs to be very finely structured with little emotion, because that happens, too, if you clasp your hands and do it.
一会儿，但当你需要完成一个需要非常精细的结构而没有任何情感的段落时，因为如果你紧握双手并这样做，也会发生这种情况。
So our friend Eddie Cheng tells me that the hand representations in the brain are very close to the language center.
所以我们的朋友Eddie Cheng告诉我，大脑中的手部表征非常接近语言中枢。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So these were probably our first tools of language, or at least they co-evolved.
所以这些可能是我们最早的语言工具，或者至少它们是共同进化的。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Well, your mouth and your hands are the most dexterous and over-represented in the brain.
嗯，你的嘴和你的手是大脑中最灵巧的，并且在大脑中所占比例最高。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
You can control the world with them, and you can move from the most-- Yeah, when the COVID pandemic started 2020, we weren't allowed to go on campus at all.
你可以和他们一起控制世界，你可以远离最——是的，当 2020 年新冠疫情开始时，我们根本不被允许进入校园。
So we sat around in our apartments.
所以我们坐在我们的公寓里。
I sat at home.
我坐在家里。
We had lab meetings on Zoom, only Zoom, and lectures.
我们在 Zoom 上召开实验室会议，仅使用 Zoom，并进行讲座。
All the classes were on Zoom prior to that, and then Zoom took off, and now most meetings are hybrid.
在此之前，所有课程都在 Zoom 上进行，然后 Zoom 开始流行，现在大多数会议都是混合会议。
But before that point, everything was face-to-face.
但在那之前，一切都是面对面的。
I would stand up and lecture.
我会站起来讲课。
We would talk face-to-face.
我们会面对面交谈。
And suddenly switching to just seeing a bunch of often little just black squares, right?
突然转而只看到一堆通常很小的黑色方块，对吧？
For the whole classroom there on Zoom, that was a hard switch.
对于 Zoom 上的整个教室来说，这是一个艰难的转变。
That lack of an interactive nature, which is something that we're looking at now.
缺乏互动性，这是我们现在正在考虑的问题。
I think it's going to be super cool.
我认为这会非常酷。
I have a graduate student just starting this.
我有一个研究生刚刚开始这个。
The experiment is this, I would see your face on a screen, and that's it.
实验是这样的，我会在屏幕上看到你的脸，仅此而已。
I would see a video of you.
我会看你的视频。
I would Zoom with you right now, and we could be having this podcast over Zoom.
我现在就和你一起 Zoom，我们可以通过 Zoom 播放这个播客。
I actually thought we were going to have this over Zoom, so I'm very happy it's not over Zoom.
我实际上以为我们会通过 Zoom 进行此操作，所以我很高兴它不是通过 Zoom 进行。
We're actually-
我们实际上是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Always better in person
人总是更好
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
...
...
and then if you're in person, and it feels different.
如果你亲自去，感觉会有所不同。
It feels different.
感觉不一样。
And so we're sort of trying to parameterize that degree of social realness, of social interaction.
因此，我们试图将社会真实性和社会互动的程度参数化。
And then we're doing that with people with autism, asking where does it change, and how difficult is it for people with autism to interact with another person?
然后我们对自闭症患者这样做，询问它在哪里发生变化，以及自闭症患者与另一个人互动有多困难？
Is it equally difficult over Zoom?
Zoom 也同样困难吗？
Is it equally difficult over Zoom if you have the selfie camera turned off, the other person can't see you, and you know that?
如果你关闭了自拍相机，其他人看不到你，而你知道这一点，那么变焦是否同样困难？
And so we're trying to look at the degree of actual social interaction as a relevant dimension, and I think it makes a huge difference.
因此，我们试图将实际社交互动的程度视为一个相关维度，我认为这会产生巨大的差异。
It feels completely different being face-to-face than if you're on Zoom, let alone if I just watch a video that's not actually aligned in time.
面对面的感觉与在 Zoom 上的感觉完全不同，更不用说我只是观看一个实际上没有及时对齐的视频了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The way I described the kind of higher or lower RPM before made it perhaps sound like one or the other was better.
我之前描述较高或较低转速的方式听起来可能其中一个更好。
But I think sometimes about Alex Honnold, who again was a guest on this podcast, and there have been claims that his amygdala doesn't react as much.
但我有时会想到亚历克斯·霍诺德（Alex Honnold），他再次成为这个播客的嘉宾，有人声称他的杏仁核反应不那么强烈。
Anyway, we could talk about that.
无论如何，我们可以谈谈这个。
I think Alex kind of maybe chuckles a little bit at those studies because he does experience anxiety and fear, just not in the context of this highly trained situation he's put himself in every single day for so long.
我认为亚历克斯可能会对这些研究感到好笑，因为他确实经历过焦虑和恐惧，只是不是在他每天都处于这种训练有素的环境中这么长时间。
But I do have to wonder whether people who go out on long runs, for instance, where there's not a lot of talking going on, or Alex, he's devoting his physical and mental energetic resources toward climbing and figuring out how to navigate high-risk, high-consequence situations.
但我确实想知道，例如，那些没有太多谈话的长距离跑步的人，或者亚历克斯，他是否将自己的体力和精神精力投入到攀岩上，并弄清楚如何应对高风险、高后果的情况。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
There you're probably just in flow.
在那里，你可能正处于心流之中。
You're just totally absorbed in what you're doing-
你只是完全专注于你正在做的事情-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
...
...
if you're doing Alex Honnold-type climbing.
如果你正在进行亚历克斯·霍诺德式的攀岩。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Once he's got it, but to work out the puzzle of with ropes first of how to maneuver-
一旦他掌握了它，但首先要解决如何操纵绳索的难题——
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
so that he can actually free solo it is a remarkable thing.
这样他就能真正自由独奏，这是一件了不起的事情。
But I almost get the impression that if people speak less, that they're able to devote more mental and physical resources to the thing they're doing.
但我几乎得到的印象是，如果人们少说话，他们就能将更多的精神和体力资源投入到他们正在做的事情上。
I never ran ultras, but I recall running.
我从来没有跑过超跑，但我记得跑步。
I used to run a long eight- to 10-mile run on Sundays.
我过去常常在周日进行八到十英里的长跑。
Used to be a thing.
曾经是一件事。
Now it's getting shorter and shorter run.
现在它的运行时间越来越短。
I have to get it back.
我必须把它拿回来。
But come back from those, and there's a fatigue component that confounds what I'm about to say, but one is a lot less reactive when you've spent a bunch of time just in your own head, and you've learned to tolerate the voice in your own head.
但从这些中回来，有一种疲劳的成分使我要说的内容变得混乱，但是当你花了很多时间在自己的脑海里，并且你已经学会容忍自己头脑中的声音时，你的反应就会少得多。
I find that I'm much calmer after I've spent a bunch of time alone because I've gone through that kind of initial stage of the mind fluttering, and then you want to communicate with people, and I'll lock up my phone in a box these days-
我发现自己一个人呆了一段时间就平静多了，因为我经历了那种心慌意乱的初级阶段，然后你想和人交流，我这几天会把手机锁在盒子里——
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to do real work.
做真正的工作。
And I come out of it, and things come my way, and they're sort of out there and over there, and unless they really demand my attention, they kind of just don't grab me.
当我走出困境时，事情就按照我的方式发展，它们就在那里，在那里，除非它们真的需要我的注意，否则它们就不会抓住我。
Whereas I think when we're highly engaged in our own mental dialogue, it's almost like we're trying to converse with the world.
然而我认为，当我们高度投入自己的心理对话时，就好像我们在尝试与世界对话。
So I think there's real value to doing these solo treks and to devoting time to getting past that need to engage with the world.
因此，我认为进行这些单独的跋涉并投入时间来克服与世界接触的需要是真正有价值的。
I think it's very, very useful.
我认为这非常非常有用。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I'm sure it's idiosyncratic.
我确信它很特别。
It'll vary, but I think that particular aspect that you mentioned, that you can just be comfortable in your own mind and that that's beneficial, I think that's a big part.
它会有所不同，但我认为你提到的特定方面，你可以对自己的想法感到舒服，这是有益的，我认为这是一个重要的部分。
And it's a big part of lots of training techniques and big part of lots of meditative techniques.
它是许多训练技巧和许多冥想技巧的重要组成部分。
But again, it's very individual.
但同样，它非常个性化。
It's not just sort of one size fits all.
这不仅仅是一种放之四海而皆准的方法。
But the ability to not just be driven by sensory input and be comfortable with your own mind.
但不仅要受感官输入驱动，还要对自己的想法感到满意。
It's not like you're doing nothing at all.
这并不是说你什么都没做。
You're training.
你正在训练。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
You're training your own mind to be comfortable, and I think the consequence of that is then subsequently when you encounter challenges in the world, you're actually better equipped-
你正在训练自己的思想变得舒服，我认为这样做的结果是，当你在世界上遇到挑战时，你实际上有更好的装备-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
...
...
to deal with those and better equipped to regulate your emotion.
处理这些问题并更好地调节你的情绪。
But when you're just at peace with yourself, if you're not doing nothing, your brain is being trained all the time, and it's being trained in a useful way.
但是当你内心平静时，如果你什么都不做，你的大脑就一直在接受训练，而且是以一种有用的方式接受训练。
And I think the ability to detach and decouple from the constant challenges and sensory information that's normally coming in, it's like sleep.
我认为从持续的挑战和通常传入的感官信息中分离和解耦的能力，就像睡眠一样。
Allows the brain to actually train itself and focus on particular internal regulation strategies-
让大脑真正训练自己并专注于特定的内部调节策略 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
...
...
that are then subsequently useful for dealing with the world later.
这对于以后与世界打交道很有用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could we say that one form of potentially useful emotional intelligence or social intelligence training is to just spend some time in your own head, either moving or not moving.
我们是否可以说，潜在有用的情商或社交智力训练的一种形式就是花一些时间在自己的头脑中，无论动还是不动。
You could do it meditating, or you could do it-
你可以冥想，或者你可以-
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
running, but to just resist the temptation to get pulled out into the world and just get good at just sitting with these things that we call emotions and thoughts.
跑步，但只是抵制被拉入世界的诱惑，并善于静坐这些我们称之为情感和想法的东西。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
I think so.
我想是的。
Again, it's going to be individual, and it's going to vary, but I think so, especially if you can get some kind of metacognitive or reflective awareness and work on what is going on in your mind.
再说一遍，这将是因人而异的，但我认为是这样，特别是如果你能够获得某种元认知或反思意识并致力于你头脑中正在发生的事情。
And ultimately, it's training control.
最终，这是训练控制。
It's training control of your emotions and training control of your thoughts.
这是训练对情绪的控制和训练对思想的控制。
And if you're constantly bombarded and just dealing with stuff coming in, you don't have time to do that.
如果你经常受到轰炸并且只是处理进来的东西，你就没有时间这样做。
So if you just-
所以如果你只是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's called social media.
这就是所谓的社交媒体。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Yes.
是的。
Of which I have none.
其中我没有。
And so if you're just by yourself, if you're running or if you're meditating or if you're trained up, if you're in an ice bath, I think you actually get a particular type of internal training that you just don't have the leisure to get if you're bombarded by social media, for instance.
因此，如果你只是一个人，如果你在跑步，如果你在冥想，或者如果你接受过训练，如果你在冰浴中，我认为你实际上得到了一种特殊类型的内部训练，而如果你受到社交媒体的轰炸，你就没有时间进行这种训练。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yes.
是的。
Every beginning of my lab meeting now, people have their laptops open and their phones out.
现在每次我的实验室会议开始时，人们都会打开笔记本电脑并拿出手机。
We put them down, and we actually have five minutes of silence, a sort of meditative silence for people to clear their minds at the beginning of-
我们把它们放下，实际上我们有五分钟的沉默，一种冥想的沉默，让人们在开始时理清思绪——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Five minute or three minutes at the beginning of every lab meeting, we have a short meditative session.
每次实验室会议开始时，我们都会进行五分钟或三分钟的简短冥想。
I put a picture up of some beautiful beach on the north shore of Kauai in case people want to look at that, but many people just close their eyes.
我放了一张可爱岛北岸一些美丽海滩的照片，以防人们想看，但很多人只是闭上眼睛。
People can do whatever they want.
人们可以为所欲为。
But the idea is to clear your mind and focus and relax and get into a frame of mind where you're actually now most receptive to listen to the research presentation that's coming up.
但我们的想法是让你头脑清醒，集中注意力，放松，进入一种你现在最容易接受即将到来的研究报告的心态。
Because you come in, and your mind is all over the place, and there's an email here, and the phone is going, and your mind is buzzing.
因为你进来了，你的思绪到处都是，这里有一封电子邮件，电话响了，你的思绪嗡嗡作响。
So quieting that, finding some focus, and then being able to engage subsequently much better with the real world, listening to the talk.
安静下来，找到一些焦点，然后能够更好地融入现实世界，聆听演讲。
I think that helps, and we do that every lab meeting.
我认为这很有帮助，我们每次实验室会议都会这样做。
Mondays at noon seems to work for people.
周一中午似乎对人们来说很有效。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How long have you implemented this?
你实施这个有多久了？
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
We started it In 2020, when George Floyd was killed, specifically to remember George Floyd.
我们在 2020 年乔治·弗洛伊德 (George Floyd) 被杀时开始了这一活动，专门是为了纪念乔治·弗洛伊德 (George Floyd)。
So there was a very specific starting point because many people were upset, and we figured we needed some kind of remembrance or just a moment of silence to acknowledge things.
所以有一个非常具体的起点，因为很多人都感到不安，我们认为我们需要某种纪念或只是片刻的沉默来承认这些事情。
And then it morphed into, you can remember whatever you like.
然后它演变成，你可以记住任何你喜欢的东西。
You can just relax.
你可以放松一下。
And then it sort of morphed into this idea, well, let's just have a moment of silence and just recalibrate from the busy world and everything that's just been going on to now, I mean, it's good to do on average every day in any case, but certainly right now before we launch into the research presentation at a lab meeting.
然后它就变成了这个想法，好吧，让我们沉默片刻，从忙碌的世界和到现在为止发生的一切中重新调整，我的意思是，无论如何，平均每天都这样做是件好事，但当然是在我们在实验室会议上开始研究演示之前。
So it sort of morphed-
所以它有点变形了——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
...
...
from a moment of silence to remember somebody to a short meditation, essentially.
从本质上来说，从纪念某人的片刻沉默到短暂的冥想。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love it.
我喜欢它。
My neuroscience colleagues are doing ice baths, training for 100-mile races- ...
我的神经科学同事们正在进行冰浴、100 英里比赛训练——……
and doing-
并在做——
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
The question is-
问题是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
...
...
am I getting more nature papers as a consequence of any of these things?
由于这些事情，我是否获得了更多自然论文？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a different metric.
这是一个不同的指标。
You seem like a happy, vital person.
你看起来是一个快乐、充满活力的人。
And-
还有——
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
I'm happy
我很高兴
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and you're writing books, and you're doing public education here in addition to all that.
除此之外，你还在写书，并且在这里进行公共教育。
I'd like to actually stay on this meditation thing for a moment.
我实际上想在冥想上停留一会儿。
Rick Rubin, famed music producer, came on this podcast.
著名音乐制作人里克·鲁宾 (Rick Rubin) 出现在这个播客中。
He also happens to be a friend of mine, and right as we sat down, he said, "Can we do some coherence breathing first?" He plays it.
他也恰好是我的朋友，当我们坐下时，他说：“我们可以先做一些连贯的呼吸吗？”他演奏它。
It's like a tone.
就像一个音调。
You do some-
你做一些——
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Okay
好的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
inhale, exhale, and-
吸气、呼气，然后——
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
he likes these transition tools.
他喜欢这些过渡工具。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Breathing exercises are great.
呼吸练习很棒。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, these transition tools, and they will increase your heart rate variability and these kinds of things.
是的，这些过渡工具，它们会增加你的心率变异性和类似的东西。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I think that one of the most interesting and understudied things in our field is task switching, whether it's emotional-
但我认为我们领域中最有趣和研究不足的事情之一是任务切换，无论是情感上的——
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Oh, yeah
哦，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
task switching or cognitive task switching.
任务切换或认知任务切换。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We assume the brain operates in step functions.
我们假设大脑按阶跃函数运行。
Like, oh, I'm out on the street, I navigate traffic, I park my car, and I come in, and I podcast.
就像，哦，我在街上，我在交通中导航，我停车，然后我进来，我播客。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And what you're doing at the beginning of this lab meeting on one hand is a meditation, but you're pivoting the brain circuits toward what comes next.
一方面，你在这次实验室会议开始时所做的是冥想，但你正在将大脑回路转向接下来发生的事情。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't think we talk enough as neuroscientists about the fact that the brain doesn't just immediately switch over, that you're carrying residual activity from whatever you were doing before.
我认为，作为神经科学家，我们对这样一个事实的讨论还不够：大脑不会立即进行转换，而且你还携带着之前所做的任何事情的残留活动。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yes.
是的。
And there's a cost to that, a well-known cost.
这是有代价的，众所周知的代价。
So as soon as you switch into something-
所以一旦你切换到某种东西-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
...
...
there's a cost carried over from the previous task, and you're much slower, and it's more difficult for the couple of next trials on the new task.
上一个任务会带来成本，而且你的速度会慢得多，而且新任务的接下来的几次试验也会变得更加困难。
So there's always a switching cost-
所以总是存在转换成本——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
...
...
which shows you that switching is hard for some reason, and there's a couple of theories for why it should be hard.
这表明由于某种原因切换是困难的，并且有几种理论可以解释为什么它应该是困难的。
There's some residue, some sort of inertia being carried over previously.
有一些残留物，某种先前遗留下来的惯性。
There's some reconfiguration in the brain required between what you were doing in the previous task and the new task.
在上一个任务和新任务中所做的事情之间，大脑需要进行一些重新配置。
But all of those would seem to require some effort, and it's definitely a skill and something that people are looking at a lot in brain recordings in humans and thinking a lot about how to design into AI.
但所有这些似乎都需要一些努力，这绝对是一种技能，人们在人类的大脑记录中经常观察并思考如何设计人工智能。
That ability to switch quickly and knowing how to switch, anticipating when to switch is a hugely important skill.
快速切换、知道如何切换、预测何时切换的能力是一项非常重要的技能。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we don't teach it.
我们不教它。
Here we are talking about emotional intelligence, social awareness, and these kinds of things, and I think most people would think, oh, we should sit down and look at a bunch of faces and learn to detect the subtle cues in faces, or we should make more eye contact.
这里我们谈论的是情商、社交意识以及诸如此类的东西，我想大多数人会想，哦，我们应该坐下来看着一堆面孔，学会发现面孔中的微妙暗示，或者我们应该进行更多的目光接触。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And what I'm hearing today is while some of that might be true, most things are pointing in a different direction.
我今天听到的是，虽然其中一些可能是正确的，但大多数事情都指向不同的方向。
We had a guest on this podcast, DJ Shipley, who's a former Tier 1 SEAL team operator.
我们的播客邀请了一位嘉宾 DJ Shipley，他是前 1 级海豹突击队操作员。
That's another high-risk, high-consequence world, but then he's out now.
那是另一个高风险、高后果的世界，但他现在已经出局了。
He's no longer deploying, and he talked about his routine for coming home.
他不再部署，他谈到了回家的例行公事。
It's like he knows he's rehearsing as he comes out of the car, just like as if it were an op.
当他从车里出来时，他就知道自己正在排练，就像一场表演一样。
I'm going to hit the door.
我要去敲门。
My daughter's going to come running from this direction.
我女儿要从这个方向跑过来。
My other daughter's going to come.
我的另一个女儿也会来。
Patsy's going to be in the kitchen.
帕齐要去厨房了。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
The bulldog's going to come charging at you.
斗牛犬会冲向你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, but he's rehearsed it, and he knows exactly where he'll set his bag, so he can scoop his daughter up.
是的，但他已经排练过了，他清楚地知道他要把包放在哪里，这样他就可以抱起他的女儿。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People either chuckled or I think were kind of taken aback by that until he said, "But this is the way that I know I can drop everything from the day-
人们要么咯咯地笑，要么我想他们对此感到惊讶，直到他说，“但这是我知道我可以放下当天一切的方式——
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and be at my best when I enter that environment." And this is the kind of a quote unquote "hyper Y chromosome version" of home and family life, but it was remarkable what the comments when we ran this clip on social media.
当我进入那个环境时，我会处于最佳状态。”这是一种不加引用的家庭和家庭生活的“超Y染色体版本”，但当我们在社交媒体上播放这段视频时，评论是值得注意的。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The men were all in awe, like, "You have a system, dude, and you follow it." And the women were like, "Yes, fantastic." This is somebody who's prioritizing how he shows up.
男人们都很敬畏，就像，“你有一个系统，伙计，你遵循它。”女人们说：“是的，太棒了。”这是一个优先考虑他的表现的人。
He's leaving everything else outside, which is a kind of-
他把其他一切都留在外面，这是一种——
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's more of a 1950s version of-
它更像是 20 世纪 50 年代的版本——
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
But that skill-
但那个技能——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it's-
但它是——
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
...
...
to be able to switch is-
能够切换是-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Perfect
完美
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
...
...
super important.
超级重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It was super important.
这非常重要。
And I-
而我——
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
And it's trainable.
而且它是可训练的。
It's largely trainable.
它很大程度上是可训练的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
And I think if you have meditative exercises, they train exactly that.
我认为如果你进行冥想练习，他们就会进行这样的训练。
It's a huge switch, right?
这是一个巨大的转变，对吧？
You're switching from constantly being bombarded and dealing with stuff in the world to suddenly putting all of that aside and just being inside.
你从不断地被轰炸和处理世界上的事情转变为突然把所有这些都放在一边，只是呆在里面。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
And it has health benefits.
它对健康有益。
Richie Davidson, for instance, I don't know if you ever-
比如说，里奇·戴维森，我不知道你是否曾经——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, we had him here.
是的，我们有他在这里。
Yeah, phenomenal guy.
是的，非凡的家伙。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
He studied Tibetan monks and long-term meditators who have meditated 10,000 hours or whatever, which we can't afford to do, but he has a lot of studies on even for the rest of us, short stretches of meditation, regular meditative exercises.
他研究了西藏僧侣和长期冥想者，他们冥想了 10,000 小时或其他，这是我们负担不起的，但他对我们其他人进行了大量研究，包括短时间的冥想、定期的冥想练习。
He's done well-controlled studies have demonstrable health benefits for sure.
他所做的控制良好的研究肯定对健康有明显的好处。
So again, it comes back to this issue of variability.
那么，这又回到了可变性的问题。
Being able to switch and having lots of variability and training that is definitely beneficial.
能够进行切换并进行大量的可变性和培训绝对是有益的。
It's beneficial for just basic physiology.
它仅对基础生理学有益。
It's beneficial for emotion granularity and emotion regulation.
它有利于情绪粒度和情绪调节。
It's beneficial for control of thought as when you're being externally oriented versus meditating.
当你面向外部而不是冥想时，这对于控制思想是有益的。
All of those are To a large extent, trainable skills in variability and control.
所有这些在很大程度上都是可训练的可变性和控制技能。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So the experiment I'd love to see done, maybe your lab will do this, would be what is the cost of task switching if you do or do not insert this five minutes of silence?
所以我希望看到完成的实验，也许你的实验室会这样做，如果你插入或不插入这五分钟的沉默，任务切换的成本是多少？
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because you're spending five minutes.
因为你要花五分钟。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we know the transition is choppy into the next thing that you're doing, so there's some overlap there.
我们知道你正在做的下一件事情的过渡是不稳定的，所以那里有一些重叠。
But by introducing the period of silence, you reduce the amount of time in order to switch your brain over to this new mode.
但是通过引入沉默期，您可以减少将大脑切换到这种新模式的时间。
Presumably, you're seeing positive effects in these lab meetings of doing-
想必，您在这些实验室会议中看到了积极的影响：
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah, we should do a study.
是的，我们应该研究一下。
We would have to think about the right controls.
我们必须考虑正确的控制措施。
We are looking at task switching, actually, in these brain recordings in epilepsy patients.
实际上，我们正在研究癫痫患者大脑记录中的任务切换。
We're looking at single unit recordings and how those representations change when you switch between tasks.
我们正在研究单个单元的录音以及当您在任务之间切换时这些表示如何变化。
It's a great study.
这是一项很棒的研究。
We're just working up the analyses now.
我们现在正在进行分析。
But we don't have the intervention that you were just speaking about, so we don't have half the patients are getting meditative training and half are not.
但我们没有你刚才提到的干预措施，所以我们没有一半的患者接受冥想训练，一半的患者没有接受冥想训练。
But the extent to which an intervention like that can improve your ability to switch or some other concrete metric, I think that's, yes, those are exactly the types of studies that should be done.
但是这样的干预可以在多大程度上提高你的转换能力或其他一些具体指标，我认为，是的，这些正是应该进行的研究类型。
I think Richie's probably doing studies like that.
我想里奇可能正在做这样的研究。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They did a study of five minutes of meditation per day and showed that people experienced tremendous increases in anxiety during the initial phase of the study, just having to sit there with your thoughts and let everything stir.
他们进行了一项每天冥想五分钟的研究，结果表明，在研究的初始阶段，人们只需坐在那里思考，让一切都搅动起来，就会经历焦虑的急剧增加。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I actually think of short meditations like that, at least initially, as another version of the ice bath.
事实上，我认为这样的短暂冥想，至少在最初，是冰浴的另一种版本。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Well, it is.
嗯，确实如此。
And I think when we started, and we have new summer students come in, a new kid in the lab and say, "Okay." I don't usually say too much.
我想当我们开始的时候，我们有新的暑期学生进来，一个实验室里的新孩子说，“好吧。”我一般不会说太多。
I say, "Okay, we're going to just, three minutes of silence." And everybody's like this.
我说：“好吧，我们默哀三分钟。”而大家都是这样的。
And these summer students are looking around.
这些暑期学生正在四处张望。
"What's going on?" It's very stressful, right?
“这是怎么回事？”压力很大，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
And if you just tell them, "Well, just don't do anything." This is obviously extremely difficult for young children.
如果你只是告诉他们，“好吧，什么都不要做。”这对于年幼的孩子来说显然是极其困难的。
Don't do anything, just be completely silent and quiet for one minute or five minutes.
什么都不做，完全安静，安静一分钟或五分钟。
It is hard to inhibit behavior.
很难抑制行为。
It's really hard to do.
确实很难做到。
But it's trainable.
但它是可以训练的。
It's completely trainable.
它是完全可以训练的。
And a big part of it, we're in this same conference room that David Anderson has his lab meetings in, which is why I can always see that he goes on for hours and hours.
其中很大一部分原因是，我们在 David Anderson 召开实验室会议的同一个会议室里，这就是为什么我总是能看到他开几个小时的会议。
It has glass walls.
它有玻璃墙。
And so people are walking around outside, looking at us sitting there in silence, probably wondering, "Not much progress being done in that lab meeting." So there's that whole social perception aspect.
所以人们在外面走来走去，看着我们静静地坐在那里，可能想知道，“那个实验室会议没有取得多大进展。”所以这就是整个社会认知方面。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
But again, once you get over that and get used to it, it's very easy to do these exercises, and it's definitely a trainable skill, for sure.
但同样，一旦你克服了这一点并习惯了，做这些练习就非常容易，而且这绝对是一项可训练的技能。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, we were on the East Coast, in Annapolis, at the Naval Academy.
是的，我们在东海岸的安纳波利斯海军学院。
These are very accomplished students, almost 4,000 of them.
这些都是非常有成就的学生，其中有近 4,000 名。
And one of the most incredible things about that environment is everyone goes into the cafeteria for lunch, and all of a sudden, a bell sounds, and you could hear a pin drop.
这种环境中最令人难以置信的事情之一是每个人都去自助餐厅吃午餐，突然，铃声响起，你可以听到一根针掉在地上的声音。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But there's thousands of people around you.
但你周围有成千上万的人。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You hear a bell again, the meal begins.
再次听到铃声，用餐开始。
Walking into the auditorium, it's shuffle, shuffle, shuffle, talking, talking, talking, talking, boom.
走进礼堂，一片拖沓、拖沓、拖沓、说话、说话、说话、说话、轰隆隆的声音。
It's a step function.
这是一个阶跃函数。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're training this in themselves.
他们正在自己训练这一点。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the other thing, no phones.
还有一件事，没有电话。
No one has phones during the day.
白天没有人有电话。
I think they get an hour where they can access their phones.
我认为他们有一个小时的时间可以使用手机。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
My phone, it's on right now because you guys wanted to text me, but normally, my phone is off, or I don't have a phone on me.
我的手机现在是开着的，因为你们想给我发短信，但通常情况下，我的手机是关机的，或者我身上没有手机。
And zero social media.
和零社交媒体。
Not on X, I'm not on Facebook, I'm not on Instagram.
不在 X 上，我不在 Facebook 上，我不在 Instagram 上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Instagram.
Instagram。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Zero.
零。
And whenever people ask me, they say, "Oh, can I hook you up with..." What's that thing?
每当人们问我时，他们都会说：“哦，我可以给你介绍一下……”那是什么东西？
LinkedIn or whatever.
领英或其他什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
I say, "I'm not on LinkedIn.
我说：“我不在 LinkedIn 上。
I don't care what LinkedIn..." And they're always surprised, and they say, "Well, why are you not on these social media?" And I say, "Why would I be?
我不在乎 LinkedIn 是什么......”他们总是感到惊讶，他们说，“好吧，你为什么不在这些社交媒体上？”我说：“我为什么会这样？
I'm already above 100% in terms of people emailing me.
就向我发送电子邮件的人数而言，我已经超过 100%。
I don't need more." So I'm, yeah, zero.
我不需要更多。”所以我是，是的，零。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Love that you've given yourself permission to do that.
很高兴您允许自己这样做。
I put social media on a separate phone so that I can really track my time on there, and I just use it only to post, read a little bit, and then I'm out.
我把社交媒体放在一个单独的手机上，这样我就可以真正跟踪我在那里的时间，我只是用它来发帖，阅读一点，然后我就出去了。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I can't take the mental noise.
我无法忍受精神上的噪音。
Before we started recording, you mentioned that you fortunately successfully overcame a bout of illness.
在我们开始录制之前，您提到您很幸运地成功战胜了一次疾病。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm curious whether the process of going through that, the diagnosis, the treatment, and then emerging from it, thank goodness, healthy, had you at times thinking about the science of emotions.
我很好奇经历这个过程、诊断、治疗，然后摆脱它，谢天谢地，健康，是否让你有时思考情绪的科学。
That's an emotional experience, to say the least.
至少可以说，这是一种情感体验。
You don't have to share with us exactly what it was, but were there times when what your knowledge of the brain's ability to process emotions, for better or worse, was a useful tool to you in that context?
你不必与我们分享到底是什么，但有时你对大脑处理情绪的能力的了解，无论好坏，在这种情况下对你来说是一个有用的工具吗？
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
I guess so.
我想是的。
Only in the most indirect sense, but I guess it's about emotion regulation.
只是在最间接的意义上，但我想这与情绪调节有关。
Well, it's about two things.
嗯，这与两件事有关。
I think it's about emotion regulation.
我认为这与情绪调节有关。
So initially, when you get a diagnosis that reminds you of your mortality, it's sort of a mixture of fear, sadness, worry, all these negative emotions.
所以最初，当你得到一个让你想起死亡的诊断时，你会感到恐惧、悲伤、担忧以及所有这些负面情绪的混合体。
And so you're regulating that, and it's interpersonal, for sure.
所以你要对此进行调节，这当然是人际间的。
So interpersonal emotion regulation between me and my wife, us talking about it.
所以我和我妻子之间的人际情绪调节，我们谈论它。
So that's a huge part of the process.
所以这是这个过程的一个重要部分。
You're not regulating those negative emotions anymore, but you're buying into, you're getting more other emotions like awe, gratitude, acceptance, all of these emotions we were talking about before that I think are largely uniquely human, that really make you appreciate and be just grateful for what you have.
你不再调节这些负面情绪，但你正在接受，你会得到更多其他情绪，比如敬畏、感激、接受，所有我们之前讨论过的情绪，我认为这些情绪在很大程度上是人类独有的，它们真的让你欣赏并感激你所拥有的一切。
So that whole process of regulating the immediate stressors and then coming to having more gratitude and awe in everyday life.
因此，调节直接压力源的整个过程，然后在日常生活中产生更多的感激和敬畏。
And then also, I think one big consequence of anything like that is that you have this metacognitive perspective on your lifeline, and where you are, how much time you have left, and how to value that, and what to do and what to plan, and how to allocate your time to things that are worthwhile.
而且，我认为类似的事情的一个重要后果是，你对自己的生命线、你在哪里、你还剩下多少时间、如何重视它、做什么、计划什么、以及如何将你的时间分配给有价值的事情有这种元认知视角。
And so in my case, one of those components was signing up for this 100-mile ultra-marathon, starting to train for it, and then just pushing through all of that.
因此，就我而言，其中一个组成部分就是报名参加这个 100 英里超级马拉松，开始训练，然后完成所有这些。
So one of the consequences of the therapy for this was I had lots of joint pain and lots of fatigue So I tell my doctor about that, and he says, "That's great.
因此，治疗的后果之一是我有很多关节疼痛和疲劳，所以我告诉我的医生，他说：“那太好了。
That means it's working." It's like, "Yes, but the side effects are preventing me from training for a 100-mile race." And so pushing through that, I think it makes you grateful for what you have and makes you just be in awe of the fact that, we were briefly talking about consciousness before, that there's a world there at all.
这意味着它正在发挥作用。”就像是，“是的，但是副作用使我无法参加 100 英里比赛的训练。”因此，推动这一点，我认为这会让你对自己所拥有的心怀感激，并让你对我们之前简要讨论过意识的事实感到敬畏，那里根本就存在一个世界。
You tend to have this perspective that physics gives us of the way the world works, that the world is going on, and when you die, you get plucked out of that, and everything else goes on.
你倾向于这样的观点：物理学告诉我们世界是如何运作的，世界在继续，当你死后，你就会脱离这个世界，而其他一切都会继续。
But from a neuroscience perspective, it's kind of the opposite.
但从神经科学的角度来看，情况恰恰相反。
You get this sense that the whole world is actually a construction of stuff in your brain.
你会感觉到整个世界实际上是你大脑中的东西的构建。
And as you get older, little things drop out, and various people die, and you're unable to do things, and eventually you lose the whole world.
随着年龄的增长，一些小事都会消失，很多人都会死去，你无法做事，最终你会失去整个世界。
So rather than thinking of death as we normally do, as the world loses you, the neuroscience perspective is the inverse, which is you lose the world.
因此，神经科学的观点与我们通常认为的死亡不同，即世界失去了你，而是相反，即你失去了世界。
So you have a couple of decades left, and then you're going to lose everything, and that's coming, so live it up.
所以你还剩下几十年的时间，然后你就会失去一切，而这一切即将到来，所以要活下去。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love it, and thank you so much for being willing to answer that question.
我喜欢它，非常感谢你愿意回答这个问题。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Sure.
当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Throughout today's conversation, I'm struck by the fact that your work plays such a prominent role in your life and your life and your work, even if we weren't necessarily connecting the dots in that way, that the fact that you do practices specifically to tap into your autonomic nervous system emotion regulation, and at the same time, the fact that you look at neural circuits and do extremely well-controlled studies to explore the mechanics that translate to everybody.
在今天的谈话中，令我震惊的是，你的工作在你的生活、你的生活和你的工作中发挥着如此重要的作用，即使我们不一定以这种方式将这些点联系起来，事实上，你专门进行练习，以利用你的自主神经系统情绪调节，同时，你观察神经回路，并进行极其严格控制的研究，以探索适用于每个人的机制。
In case anyone hasn't told you, and because I sit at a unique vantage point, both having done academic research and now in public health communication, people need to hear this and see and experience scientists like you.
如果有人没有告诉你，因为我处于一个独特的有利位置，既做过学术研究，现在又从事公共卫生传播，人们需要听到这些，看到和体验像你这样的科学家。
So thank you so much for coming here today, for being willing to open up about some of this, and frankly, for doing the work that you do for so many years at such a high level.
非常感谢您今天来到这里，愿意公开谈论其中的一些问题，坦率地说，感谢您多年来在如此高的水平上所做的工作。
And I'm so grateful that you're writing yet another book.
我非常感激你正在写另一本书。
If it's not out yet, we can't put a link to it just yet, but when it comes out, I'll surely get a copy, and even though you're not on social media, I'll be sure to talk about it after I've read it because as I did the prior book that you wrote with David.
如果它还没有出版，我们还不能提供链接，但是当它出版时，我肯定会得到一份副本，即使你不在社交媒体上，我也一定会在读完它后谈论它，因为就像我读过你和大卫写的前一本书一样。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Thank you very much, Andrew.
非常感谢你，安德鲁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
It was a pleasure being here.
很高兴来到这里。
We'll stay in touch, and maybe at some point, I can tell you that I finished a 100-mile race and the book got published.
我们会保持联系，也许在某个时候，我可以告诉你我完成了 100 英里的比赛并且这本书已经出版了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Excellent.
太棒了。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have no doubt that you will.
我毫不怀疑你会的。
Whether I join you for that 100-mile race is a completely different story.
我是否和你一起参加那场 100 英里的比赛是一个完全不同的故事。
But thank you so much, Ralph.
但非常感谢你，拉尔夫。
Appreciate you.
感谢你。
Dr. Ralph Adolphs:
拉尔夫·阿道夫斯博士：
Thanks.
谢谢。
It was a pleasure.
这是一种乐趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Ralph Adolphs.
感谢您参加今天与 Ralph Adolphs 博士的讨论。
To learn more about his work and to find links to his previous and forthcoming books, please see the link in the show note caption.
要了解有关他的作品的更多信息并查找他之前和即将出版的书籍的链接，请参阅节目注释标题中的链接。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的关注按钮来关注播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。
And you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.
您现在可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab Podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客、嘉宾或您希望我考虑在 Huberman 实验室播客中讨论的主题有意见，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这本书是我花了五年多时间编写的，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验。
And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
它涵盖了从睡眠到运动再到压力控制的所有协议，以及与注意力和动机相关的协议，当然，我为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There you can find links to various vendors.
在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." And if you're not already following me on social media, I am hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 hubermanlab。
So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab Podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab Podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。
Again, it's hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
再说一遍，所有社交媒体平台上都是 hubermanlab。
And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.
我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。
All of that is available completely zero cost.
所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter, and enter your email.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的“菜单”选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件即可。
And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Ralph Adolphs.
再次感谢您参加今天与 Ralph Adolphs 博士的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。