Movement Practice to Strengthen Your Mind-Body Connection | Ido Portal
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Discipline is very important, but it's similar to the wall in learning to do a handstand.
纪律非常重要，但它类似于学习倒立时的墙壁。
If you use the wall one way, where you're all the time pushing yourself off of the wall, try to catch your handstand, you become reliant on the wall.
如果你以一种方式使用墙壁，你总是把自己推离墙壁，尝试抓住你的倒立，你就会变得依赖墙壁。
But there is a different approach.
但还有一种不同的方法。
We can use the wall, but pull off of it, which comes from the other end, from our hands, from the connection to the ground.
我们可以使用墙，但要从墙的另一端、从我们的手、从与地面的连接处拉开它。
That does not necessitate the wall.
这并不需要隔离墙。
This is the correct way to use discipline.
这才是运用纪律的正确方法。
You should use it as a scaffolding, as a way to get things going, like write that book.
你应该用它作为脚手架，作为让事情顺利进行的一种方式，就像写那本书一样。
But inside the process, you must make sure you don't lean hard into it, you don't leave everything for it to dictate, and you bring some playfulness, some relaxation, some deep choice.
但在这个过程中，你必须确保你不会过度依赖它，你不会让一切都听其指挥，你要带来一些乐趣，一些放松，一些深刻的选择。
I want to do this.
我想做这个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science, and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学以及基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Ido Portal.
今天我的嘉宾是 Ido Portal。
Ido Portal is a world-renowned movement teacher and the founder of Movement Culture, which is an integrative practice for developing the self that combines physical and mental practice.
Ido Portal是世界著名的运动老师，也是运动文化的创始人，运动文化是一种身心实践相结合的自我发展综合实践。
Today we discuss how anyone can practice movement, deliberate awareness, and even language and other forms of communication in ways that explore and expand your capabilities and your understanding and sense of self.
今天我们讨论任何人如何练习运动、刻意意识，甚至语言和其他形式的交流，以探索和扩展你的能力以及你的理解和自我意识。
Now, Ido is not anti-exercise or anti-fitness.
现在，Ido 并不是反对运动或反对健身。
But what sets him apart as a movement teacher, and why so many professional athletes, dancers, and people around the world continually seek out his teachings, is his ability to show people unique ways for how to go about their daily life in ways that truly expand both their mind and their body, as well as their athletic performance in the case of athletics.
但他作为一名运动老师的独特之处，以及为什么世界各地如此多的职业运动员、舞蹈家和人们不断寻求他的教导，是因为他能够向人们展示独特的生活方式，以真正扩展他们的思想和身体的方式，以及他们在田径运动中的运动表现。
Today we discuss unique meditation practices, ways to build discipline and access willpower, and by the way, what the difference between discipline and willpower is, and how to use play as an extremely potent way to rewire your default operating systems in everything you do.
今天我们讨论独特的冥想练习、建立纪律和获得意志力的方法，顺便说一下，纪律和意志力之间的区别是什么，以及如何使用游戏作为一种极其有效的方式来重新连接你所做的一切中的默认操作系统。
If you, like so many other people, typically think about movement practices as for strength or endurance or mobility, well, today you're in for a surprise, because Ido explains how the transitions between brain states and physical states are linked and are fertile ground for extremely rapid neuroplasticity, and that they can help you truly understand how your mind and body are organized and can function better.
如果你像许多其他人一样，通常将运动练习视为力量、耐力或灵活性，那么今天你会感到惊讶，因为 Ido 解释了大脑状态和身体状态之间的转变如何相互联系，并为极快的神经可塑性提供了肥沃的土壤，并且它们可以帮助你真正了解你的思想和身体是如何组织的，并且可以更好地运作。
Today's conversation is a truly special one.
今天的谈话确实是一次特别的谈话。
I have to be clear, it's not philosophical.
我必须澄清，这不是哲学。
It's not theoretical.
这不是理论上的。
It's a practical exploration of movement, awareness, language, and cognition that is rooted in science and has real-world implications for all of us.
这是对运动、意识、语言和认知的实践探索，植根于科学，对我们所有人都有现实意义。
Ido is a truly unique human being, teacher, and friend, and it was an honor to host him again.
Ido 是一位真正独特的人、老师和朋友，很荣幸再次接待他。
So prepare to learn.
所以准备学习吧。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.
为了与这个主题保持一致，今天的节目确实有赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Ido Portal.
现在我与 Ido Portal 进行讨论。
Ido Portal, welcome back.
伊多门户网站，欢迎回来。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So happy to see you again, my friend.
很高兴再次见到你，我的朋友。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Good to see you.
很高兴见到你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You've aged backwards.
你已经倒退了。
So you're doing something right.
所以你正在做正确的事情。
Now you haven't aged at all.
现在的你一点也没有变老。
What have you been up to lately?
你最近在忙什么？
I have many questions, but I want to know what's been your first thought on waking most consistently over the last year or so?
我有很多问题，但我想知道在过去一年左右的时间里，您对最持续醒来的第一个想法是什么？
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
The same thing.
同样的事情。
Always the same thing.
总是同样的事情。
The most important thing that exists, that there is.
存在的最重要的东西就是存在的。
That's how my system operates.
我的系统就是这样运行的。
But getting that change, that deep transformation in people, in myself.
但要实现人们、我自己的那种改变、那种深刻的转变。
Why?
为什么？
Why are we missing it?
为什么我们会错过它？
What is required?
需要什么？
That's always been there and changes its face, but it's the same one.
它一直都在那里，虽然面貌发生了变化，但还是一样的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When you wake up, do you open your eyes right away, or do you ever spend some time in that liminal state between asleep and awake?
当你醒来时，你会立即睁开眼睛，还是会在睡着和醒着之间的临界状态中度过一段时间？
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
I sometimes spend some time there.
我有时会在那里度过一段时间。
I experienced also sleep paralysis before and various in-betweens.
我之前也经历过睡眠瘫痪，中间也经历过各种睡眠瘫痪。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Where you're wide awake, but the body's still paralyzed, yeah.
你很清醒，但身体仍然瘫痪，是的。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Yeah.
是的。
When you sit a lot, when you meditate a lot, and other practices and somatic practices, again, you get to know the territory, and you can stabilize fragile states more easily.
当你经常坐着，当你经常冥想，以及其他练习和身体练习时，你会再次了解这个领域，并且可以更容易地稳定脆弱的状态。
So crossing into that boundary of the sleep, it becomes a slow-mo journey that you can pause, that you can spend time at any point in.
因此，跨越睡眠的边界，它就变成了一个你可以暂停的慢动作旅程，你可以在任何时候度过时间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
I do Yoga Nidra, non-sleep deep rest, and there are moments where I can feel myself falling asleep, and it literally feels like falling, and then you can kind of catch yourself in these liminal states.
我做瑜伽休息术，即非睡眠深度休息，有时我会感觉自己睡着了，感觉就像坠落，然后你可以让自己陷入这些阈限状态。
Rick Rubin once said to me, he said, "If you wake up from a bad dream, a nightmare, just move your body and look around the room.
里克·鲁宾（Rick Rubin）曾经对我说过，“如果你从一场噩梦中醒来，只要移动你的身体，环顾一下房间。
If you wake up from a dream you were really enjoying, and you want to go back in, keep your eyes closed." And I think what he's talking about is more or less what you're talking about, the ability to kind of forward and reverse out of these transition states.
如果你从真正享受的梦中醒来，并且想回去，请闭上眼睛。”我认为他所说的或多或少与你所说的一样，即从这些过渡状态中前进和后退的能力。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Usually, the common way that people live and the common person has a very simplified perception of these states, of the granularity.
通常，人们的生活方式和普通人对这些状态和粒度的感知非常简单。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
So they're difficult to stabilize.
所以他们很难稳定下来。
It becomes very binary.
它变得非常二元。
Black, white, sleep.
黑，白，睡觉。
You relax someone They fall asleep.
你让某人放松下来，他们就睡着了。
That's what happens when there is not a lot of experience.
当没有太多经验时就会发生这种情况。
Everything is immediately going there.
一切都会立即去那里。
But there is a lot of benefit in heading to sleep and taking a sharp left just before.
但在睡觉前向左急转有很多好处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Tell me about that and how one might practice that.
告诉我这一点以及如何实践这一点。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Well, the sleep, there is a kind of a way where we can inverse the relationship.
嗯，睡眠，有一种方法可以逆转这种关系。
This is the sleeping state, which is discussed in various authors, and the waking sleep.
这是不同作者讨论的睡眠状态和清醒睡眠。
And then the sleep has a benefit because there is an openness towards something else.
然后睡眠是有好处的，因为人们对其他事情持开放态度。
So heading directly to sleep and then navigating from there is very powerful to reset the system, to change the schemes, these rigid schemes that we sometimes have, the rigid schemas, the models that we're running.
因此，直接进入睡眠状态，然后从那里导航，对于重置系统、改变方案、我们有时拥有的这些严格的方案、严格的方案、我们正在运行的模型来说，是非常强大的。
When they become too rigid, when they're surrounded by a hard membrane, when they oversimplify, and there is this Bayesian reduction, you got to pop out of it somehow.
当它们变得过于刚性时，当它们被硬膜包围时，当它们过于简单化时，并且存在贝叶斯简化，你必须以某种方式摆脱它。
So psychedelics is one way, and there are other ways, but the sleep every day is key because it's a very different status and way of being and way of experiencing, which we experience daily.
所以迷幻药是一种方式，还有其他方式，但每天的睡眠是关键，因为这是一种非常不同的状态、存在方式和体验方式，我们每天都会经历。
And we can use that transition part and the thing itself as well.
我们也可以使用过渡部分和事物本身。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you ever intentionally get up in the middle of the night to just experience being mostly awake but somewhat asleep just to experience what that's like?
你是否曾经故意在半夜起床，只是为了体验一下大部分清醒但又有点睡着的感觉？
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Yeah, I did before.
是的，我以前也这么做过。
Various practices use that kind of instruction.
各种实践都使用这种指导。
Some people might be familiar with the lucid dreaming or the dream yoga or the sleep yoga-
有些人可能熟悉清醒梦、梦瑜伽或睡眠瑜伽——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
...
...
what is called, various practices.
所谓的，各种做法。
And waking up in the middle of the night also allows you to appreciate something else, something different.
半夜醒来也能让你欣赏一些别的东西，一些不同的东西。
Sometimes it happens, and you can manipulate it into somewhere, and sometimes you can do it on purpose.
有时它发生了，你可以将它操纵到某个地方，有时你可以故意这样做。
Nowadays, with all the longevity talk and all this direction, we sometimes don't capitalize on such things.
如今，随着人们对长寿的讨论和所有这些方向的发展，我们有时并没有利用这些东西。
But sometimes there is more to be gained with a bad night's sleep than with a good night's sleep.
但有时，睡不好觉比睡个好觉更能带来好处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In 2015 to 20, I would say 2018, I was very busy, but I was mourning the death of my graduate advisor.
2015年到20年，我想说2018年，我很忙，但我正在哀悼我的研究生导师的去世。
I was very close with her.
我和她关系非常亲密。
Unusually close for a graduate advisor and student, very maternal, her to me relationship.
对于研究生导师和学生来说，她与我的关系异常亲密，非常慈母。
Knew her kids.
认识她的孩子。
I'm friends with her husband and kids still.
我和她的丈夫和孩子们仍然是朋友。
And she died in 2014, and I was really distraught about it, and someone recommended to me that I set an alarm for the middle of the night, somewhere between 3:00 and 4:00 a.m., and I just get up and try grieving then.
她于 2014 年去世，我对此感到非常心烦意乱，有人建议我在半夜定一个闹钟，大约在凌晨 3:00 到 4:00 之间，然后我就起床尝试悲伤。
And at first, I thought, "That sounds like the worst thing to do." I'm like, "No, I have no protection then." My forebrain has shut down.
起初，我想，“这听起来是最糟糕的事情。”我想，“不，那样我就没有保护了。”我的前脑已经停止运转了。
That's when I normally would be entering more REM sleep, and I tried it.
那是我通常会进入更多快速眼动睡眠的时间，我尝试了。
It was very interesting.
这很有趣。
It definitely allowed for a more intense mourning, but it had a very interesting effect where I no longer had the challenge of falling asleep and waking up.
它确实允许更强烈的哀悼，但它产生了一个非常有趣的效果，我不再面临入睡和醒来的挑战。
I had this designated period in my sleep, did a lot of crying between 3:00 a.m.
我在这段指定的睡眠时间里，在凌晨 3:00 到凌晨 3:00 之间哭了很多次。
and 5:00 a.m., and in many ways, I feel like it worked.
和凌晨 5:00，从很多方面来说，我觉得这很有效。
Who knows?
谁知道？
In some cultures, it's like the veil of suppression is pulled back.
在某些文化中，这就像压抑的面纱被拉开了。
Our defenses are way, way down in those hours.
在那段时间里，我们的防御能力大大下降。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
That's the point.
这就是重点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
These membranes that are surrounding various systems inside of us and the models that we are running that are protecting them, these Markov blankets, these filters that can rigidify and don't allow a lot in to simplify things for the model, so we can survive, so we can do things.
这些膜包围着我们体内的各种系统，以及我们正在运行的保护它们的模型，这些马尔可夫毯子，这些过滤器可以僵化并且不允许太多东西进入来简化模型的事情，所以我们可以生存，所以我们可以做事。
And then when you change, when you go into those times, change the scenario radically, you increase your chances of opening up, of recalculating, of allowing the model to recalibrate.
然后，当你改变时，当你进入那些时代，从根本上改变场景时，你就会增加开放、重新计算、允许模型重新校准的机会。
And again, people nowadays, they use extreme means.
再说一遍，现在的人，他们使用极端的手段。
It doesn't necessarily mean that it works sometimes.
这并不一定意味着它有时会起作用。
Sometimes you need the micro dosages-
有时您需要微剂量-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
...
...
and a practice around it, repetition.
以及围绕它的练习，重复。
Not a huge event of intensity, but a repeating mellow event, gentle event.
这不是一个激烈的巨大事件，而是一个重复的、柔和的、温和的事件。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I can relate to, I started a prayer practice before sleep over two and a half years ago, and I haven't missed a single night.
我可以体会到，两年半前我开始进行睡前祈祷练习，而且我没有错过任何一个晚上。
And some nights I fall asleep while I'm praying and wake up and continue, and I tell myself that the consistency is worth something on those nights because I feel sort of badly, like my mind's drifting, and then I go, "Okay, but I haven't missed." If I fall asleep, get out of bed and do it, and then get back in bed.
有些晚上，我在祈祷时睡着了，醒来后继续祈祷，我告诉自己，在那些夜晚，一致性是值得的，因为我感觉有点糟糕，就像我的思绪在漂移，然后我说，“好吧，但我没有错过。”如果我睡着了，就起床做这件事，然后再回到床上。
With respect to these micro practices, micro dosing, as it were, I know you're a proponent of meditation.
关于这些微实践，微剂量，可以说，我知道你是冥想的支持者。
People often will talk about how long they meditate.
人们经常会谈论他们冥想多长时间。
Do you have a practice where you will just stop for a moment or two or a minute, or is it for you, a meditation practice, a long extended thing, and how often are you doing that?
你是否有一种练习，你会停下来一两分钟或一分钟，或者它是适合你的，一种冥想练习，一个长时间延伸的事情，你多久这样做一次？
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Oh, I think there are advantages to both ends of the spectrum.
哦，我认为两端都有优点。
Because the long meditation thing, the retreats, the strong determination seats, many hours or many days, they definitely load the trampoline and create an effect, but also you become dependent on it, and it's hard later to drag this into other areas of life, which is not often discussed and mentioned in relation to meditation.
因为长时间的冥想，静修，坚定的决心座位，几个小时或很多天，它们肯定会加载蹦床并产生效果，但你也会变得依赖它，以后很难将其拖到生活的其他领域，这在与冥想相关的情况下不经常讨论和提及。
I didn't start to meditate because I wanted to sit.
我没有开始冥想，因为我想坐下来。
I wanted to take the state and to apply it into my life.
我想占领国家并将其应用到我的生活中。
So that is a moment where you can integrate, you can take the depth, and you can take also very short periods of practice and apply these micro dosages and try to get a change in the defaults of your state and your way of being.
因此，在这个时刻，你可以融入，你可以深入，你也可以进行很短的练习，应用这些微剂量，并尝试改变你默认的状态和存在方式。
Eventually, people ask me why I practice so much.
最终，人们问我为什么练习这么多。
It's because I'm aiming for 24 hours a day.
因为我的目标是一天24小时。
So if you're practicing eight hours a day or 10 hours a day, this is the unofficial side of the practice, and these micro practices are very helpful for that.
因此，如果你每天练习八小时或每天十小时，这就是练习的非正式方面，而这些微练习对此非常有帮助。
A good practice to do is not to take your mind off of something, like a problem that you have to solve.
一个好的做法是不要让你的注意力从某些事情上转移，比如你必须解决的问题。
To walk around and try to remember that thing, try to keep it in front of you as much as you can, which means the only thing you can be blamed for is if you caught yourself not focusing on that-
四处走动并尝试记住那件事，尽量将它放在你面前，这意味着你唯一可以受到责备的是，如果你发现自己没有专注于那件事——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
...
...
and you didn't bring yourself back to the problem-
而你并没有让自己回到这个问题上-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
...
...
at hand, then you are to be blamed.
就在眼前，那么你就该受到指责。
Anything else is fine.
其他什么都好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
And that is a very powerful practice.
这是一个非常强大的实践。
We can solve incredibly difficult problems, overcome obstacles, transform ourselves, and we've moved away from such ways of doing and ways of being.
我们可以解决极其困难的问题，克服障碍，改变自己，并且我们已经摆脱了这种做事方式和存在方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's an unfortunate reality, but tap water often contains contaminants that negatively impact our health.
这是一个不幸的现实，但自来水通常含有对我们的健康产生负面影响的污染物。
In fact, a 2020 study by the Environmental Working Group estimated that more than 200 million Americans are exposed to PFAS chemicals, also known as forever chemicals, through drinking of tap water.
事实上，环境工作组 2020 年的一项研究估计，超过 2 亿美国人通过饮用自来水接触到 PFAS 化学物质（也称为永久化学物质）。
These forever chemicals are linked to serious health issues such as hormone disruption, gut microbiome disruption, fertility issues, and many other health problems.
这些永久性化学物质与严重的健康问题有关，例如激素紊乱、肠道微生物组破坏、生育问题和许多其他健康问题。
The Environmental Working Group has also shown that over 122 million Americans drink tap water with high levels of chemicals known to cause cancer.
环境工作组还表明，超过 1.22 亿美国人饮用的自来水含有大量已知致癌化学物质。
It's for all these reasons that I'm thrilled to have Rorra as a sponsor of this podcast.
出于所有这些原因，我很高兴 Rorra 作为这个播客的赞助商。
I've been using the Rorra countertop system for almost a year now.
我使用 Rorra 台面系统已经快一年了。
Rorra's filtration technology removes harmful substances, including endocrine disruptors and disinfection byproducts, while preserving beneficial minerals like magnesium and calcium.
Rorra 的过滤技术可去除有害物质，包括内分泌干扰物和消毒副产物，同时保留镁和钙等有益矿物质。
It requires no installation or plumbing.
它不需要安装或管道。
It's built from medical-grade stainless steel, and its sleek design fits beautifully on your countertop.
它由医用级不锈钢制成，其时尚的设计非常适合您的台面。
In fact, I consider it a welcome addition to my kitchen.
事实上，我认为它对我的厨房来说是一个受欢迎的补充。
It looks great, and the water is delicious.
看起来很棒，水也很美味。
If you'd like to try Rorra, you can go to rorra.com/huberman and get an exclusive discount.
如果您想尝试 Rorra，可以访问 rorra.com/huberman 并获得独家折扣。
Again, that's rorra, R-O-R-R-A.com/huberman.
再说一次，那是 rorra，R-O-R-R-A.com/huberman。
Today's episode is also brought to us by ROKA.
今天的节目也是ROKA给我们带来的。
I'm excited to share that ROKA and I recently teamed up to create a new pair of red lens glasses.
我很高兴与大家分享，我和 ROKA 最近联手打造了一副新的红色镜片眼镜。
These red lens glasses are meant to be worn in the evening after the sun goes down.
这些红色镜片的眼镜适合在晚上太阳落山后佩戴。
They filter out short wavelength light that comes from screens and from LED lights, which are the most common indoor lighting nowadays.
它们过滤掉来自屏幕和 LED 灯的短波长光，这是当今最常见的室内照明。
I want to emphasize ROKA red lens glasses are not traditional blue blockers.
我想强调的是，ROKA 红色镜片眼镜不是传统的防蓝光眼镜。
They do filter out blue light, but they filter out a lot more than just blue light.
它们确实过滤掉蓝光，但它们过滤的不仅仅是蓝光。
In fact, they filter out the full range of short wavelength light that suppresses the hormone melatonin.
事实上，它们会过滤掉所有抑制褪黑激素的短波长光。
By the way, you want melatonin high in the evening and at night.
顺便说一句，您需要在傍晚和夜间获得高浓度的褪黑激素。
Makes it easy to fall and stay asleep, and those short wavelengths trigger increases in cortisol.
让人很容易入睡并保持睡眠状态，而这些短波长会引发皮质醇的增加。
Increases in cortisol are great in the early part of the day, but you do not want increases in cortisol in the evening and at night.
一天中的早些时候，皮质醇会大量增加，但您不希望傍晚和晚上皮质醇会增加。
These ROKA red lens glasses ensure normal, healthy increases in melatonin and that your cortisol levels stay low, which is, again, what you want in the evening and at night.
这些 ROKA 红色镜片眼镜可确保褪黑激素正常、健康地增加，并使您的皮质醇水平保持在较低水平，这也是您在晚上和晚上想要的。
If you'd like to try ROKA, go to roka.com.
如果您想尝试 ROKA，请访问 roka.com。
That's R-O-K-A.com, and enter the code Huberman to save 20% off your first order.
这是 R-O-K-A.com，输入代码 Huberman 即可在首次订单时节省 20%。
Again, that's roka.com, and enter the code Huberman at checkout.
同样，这是 roka.com，并在结账时输入代码 Huberman。
We've done a few episodes in the last year on, or that touched on meditation.
去年我们做了几集，或者涉及冥想。
We had Richie Davidson, who's one of the real pioneers of studying the neuroscience of meditation, and he said that when people start a meditation practice, traditional sitting meditation, close their eyes, focus on third eye center, breathing, et cetera, redirect attention, that they see a statistically significant increase in anxiety across that early phase.
我们邀请了里奇·戴维森（Richie Davidson），他是研究冥想神经科学的真正先驱之一，他说，当人们开始冥想练习（传统的静坐冥想）、闭上眼睛、专注于第三只眼中心、呼吸等、转移注意力时，他们会发现在早期阶段，焦虑程度在统计学上显着增加。
And in some ways, he said that's a real value of the practice.
从某些方面来说，他说这是这种做法的真正价值。
It's really about stress inoculation, the stress that comes from forcing oneself to sit still.
这实际上是关于压力接种，即强迫自己静坐所产生的压力。
But eventually, it does seem to give way, if people practice regularly, to some other kind of channel of consciousness that is very useful to apply in the rest of one's life.
但最终，如果人们定期练习，它似乎确实会让位于某种其他类型的意识渠道，这种渠道对人的余生非常有用。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sounds like that second channel is the one that you're after.
听起来第二个频道就是您想要的频道。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Yeah.
是的。
This anxiety, this under-reduced state, in a way, the failure to adjust the membrane, this protective membrane around the model, whatever model it is, if it's the body scheme, if it's the emotional schema or the conceptual schema, you're in an under-reduced state.
这种焦虑，这种未充分还原的状态，在某种程度上，无法调整模型周围的膜，这种保护膜，无论它是什么模型，如果它是身体方案，如果它是情感图式或概念图式，你就处于未充分还原的状态。
So everything bombers you, and you're bleeding resources metabolically, right?
所以一切都会轰炸你，你的新陈代谢会消耗资源，对吗？
And that's anxiety.
这就是焦虑。
That's why almost always, anxiety over a long duration will turn into depression.
这就是为什么长期焦虑几乎总是会变成抑郁症。
You're bleeding resources.
你正在消耗资源。
So adjusting, simplifying, that's a critical moment.
所以调整、简化，这是一个关键时刻。
Of course, lowering the bar of the task is a very important tool.
当然，降低任务门槛是一个非常重要的工具。
Micro tasks.
微任务。
And I'm not just talking about the classical sitting meditation.
我所说的不仅仅是经典的静坐冥想。
I'm using everything.
我正在使用一切。
For me, it's all the same Tasks with tennis balls, with a stick.
对我来说，用网球和棍子完成的任务都是一样的。
I'll use anything because my intention is not to get the success in the specifics, it's to get the transformation much deeper.
我会使用任何东西，因为我的目的不是要在具体细节上取得成功，而是要让转型更加深入。
So it's almost irrelevant.
所以这几乎是无关紧要的。
I'll use whatever I need to use to get that going.
我将使用我需要使用的一切来实现这一目标。
And so I think meditation, in many ways, sometimes becomes too dogmatic in that sense.
所以我认为，从很多方面来说，冥想有时在这个意义上变得过于教条。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
We've already touched on sort of liminal states, transition from sleep to waking or waking to sleep, and trying to just catch oneself and pause in those, like you said, maybe reverse, maybe pause there, hover there.
我们已经触及了某种阈限状态，从睡眠到醒来或从醒来到睡眠的过渡，并试图抓住自己并在这些状态中暂停，就像你说的，也许反转，也许暂停在那里，悬停在那里。
I'm fascinated by this peculiar place we are with science where we know a lot more about sleeping states, can describe phase one, phase two, phase three, slow-wave deep sleep, REM sleep, the fraction that you get depending on the night before, vivid dreams versus non-vivid dreams.
我对科学这个奇特的地方着迷，我们对睡眠状态了解得更多，可以描述第一阶段、第二阶段、第三阶段、慢波深度睡眠、快速眼动睡眠、取决于前一天晚上的睡眠分数、生动的梦与不生动的梦。
We know barely anything scientifically about waking states in comparison to sleeping states.
与睡眠状态相比，我们对清醒状态几乎一无所知。
We talk alpha waves, beta waves, theta waves, but it's very rudimentary.
我们谈论阿尔法波、贝塔波、西塔波，但它们都是非常初级的。
Right now, I assure you there's no scientific paper that could describe the state that we're in.
现在，我向你保证，没有任何科学论文可以描述我们所处的状态。
We could say, "Oh, well, these alpha waves or these percentage of activity in one brain area or another." I think that the definition of different waking states is going to come into science from outside of science.
我们可以说，“哦，好吧，这些阿尔法波或大脑某个区域或另一个区域的活动百分比。”我认为不同清醒状态的定义将从科学之外进入科学。
Someone will study it, but I've been waiting for somebody to say, like, "Are we in stage one of focused attention right now?
有人会研究它，但我一直在等待有人说，“我们现在处于集中注意力的第一阶段吗？
Stage four?" Nobody can point to this, which should bother people.
第四阶段？”没有人能指出这一点，这应该让人们感到困扰。
We're really far behind even a descriptive understanding of where we're at.
我们确实远远落后于对我们所处位置的描述性理解。
I feel calm right now despite drinking so much caffeine.
尽管喝了这么多咖啡因，我现在感觉很平静。
You're clearly externally calm.
你表面上显然很平静。
I imagine you're internally calm.
我想你内心很平静。
But what would you describe your state?
但你会怎样描述你的状态呢？
How should people start to peel back the layers and get a better understanding of the state they're in?
人们应该如何开始剥离层层并更好地了解他们所处的状态？
Because I think there's real value to this in waking states.
因为我认为这在清醒状态下具有真正的价值。
And I don't have a language for it, but you've spent a lot more time thinking about mind-body states than I have.
我没有语言来表达它，但你花在思考身心状态上的时间比我多得多。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
I think there is a mistake or a direction that we took asking who we are instead of asking what we are, which can really serve this.
我认为我们问我们是谁而不是问我们是什么是一个错误或一个方向，这确实可以服务于此。
There is a need of almost a rudimentary map of what is needed, what is here, how do I map this?
需要一个几乎基本的地图来说明所需要的东西，这里有什么，我该如何绘制它？
What am I observing, even?
我到底在观察什么？
You can't refine what you can't define, but not in the sense of this verbal definition, but some kind of an internal definition, some kind of a boundary drawn, some kind of a selection.
你无法细化你无法定义的东西，但不是在这个口头定义的意义上，而是某种内部定义，某种绘制的边界，某种选择。
The selected thing, the selected state, the differentiation.
选定的事物、选定的状态、分化。
Without this, what am I seeing when I look inside?
如果没有这个，当我往里面看时，我会看到什么？
Listen to your body.
听听你的身体。
I don't believe in that.
我不相信这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Ido Portal doesn't believe in listen to your body.
Ido Portal 不相信倾听您的身体。
Right.
正确的。
What do you listen to?
你听什么？
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
What are you listening to?
你在听什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, your heartbeat, your what?
是啊，你的心跳，你的什么？
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Yeah.
是的。
You have no-
你没有-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What does that mean?
这意味着什么？
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
It's corrupted.
它已损坏。
You're too corrupted to listen to your body.
你太腐败了，听不到自己身体的声音。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Those are the most corrupted people usually.
这些人通常是最腐败的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The people who are saying listen to your body?
那些说听听你的身体的人？
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think that whole verbiage comes from this notion, and the quite pioneering, although I would say somewhat out-of-date book, "The Body Keeps the Score," I think it was an important book.
我认为整个措辞都来自这个概念，而相当开创性的书，虽然我会说有些过时的书，“身体保持分数”，我认为这是一本重要的书。
Best title of any book you could imagine in the psychology space because it's so catchy.
这是你能想象到的心理学领域最好的书名，因为它太吸引人了。
And I want to give proper respect to Bessel for doing that book, and it was early.
我想对贝塞尔写这本书给予应有的尊重，而且时间还早。
But I think that embedded in people's minds that experiences we have live as pain, discomfort, or blockages, and that the solutions come from releasing that pain, discomfort, and blockage.
但我认为，在人们的头脑中，我们所经历的经历是痛苦、不适或障碍，而解决方案来自于释放这些痛苦、不适和障碍。
Ergo, if I'm feeling good, things are moving through, I'm making progress, I'm moving away from that historical bad thing.
因此，如果我感觉良好，事情就会进展顺利，我就会取得进步，我就会摆脱历史上的坏事。
And if I'm feeling it again, it's still alive in me, and it needs to be released.
如果我再次感受到它，它仍然存在于我体内，并且需要释放。
That's the kind of premise.
这就是这样的前提。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there are a lot of data to support that chronic stress can harm the body and so forth.
并且有大量数据支持慢性压力会损害身体等等。
So those ideas sort of took off, but I also agree they've kind of hit a wall in 2020 or so.
所以这些想法有点起飞了，但我也同意它们在 2020 年左右碰壁了。
We go, "Well, what do you mean?" "Well, it's in the fascia." "Really?
我们说：“好吧，你是什么意思？” “嗯，就在筋膜里。” “真的吗？
Like it's in the fascia?
好像是在筋膜上？
Or are we just talking about fascia?" And I love all of that stuff as an exploration, but I think we are at a place where we really need to ask better questions.
或者我们只是在谈论筋膜？”我喜欢所有这些东西作为一种探索，但我认为我们确实需要提出更好的问题。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Yeah.
是的。
It sounds very corrupted again.
听起来又很腐败。
And we know so much about the framing of things, excitement versus very negative states, that it's so similar, it's so close, that it cannot make sense.
我们对事物的框架、兴奋与非常消极的状态了解得太多，以至于它们如此相似，如此接近，以至于无法理解。
We cannot work from that place.
我们不能在那个地方工作。
And also working from our likes and dislikes.
并且还根据我们的喜好和不喜欢来工作。
What do I want to do?
我想做什么？
We just watch this thing.
我们只是看这个东西。
You just need to do what you want to do.
你只需要做你想做的事。
I believe that's the last thing for you to do.
我相信这是你要做的最后一件事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Ido was referring to before we came in here, we watched two short films.
Ido 指的是在我们来这里之前，我们看了两部短片。
The first one is one that was put out in 2014 about this real-life guy, Slo Mo, we'll put a link to it, a guy who essentially gave up his life as a physician, and you see rollerblades very slowly on one leg down the boardwalk in Pacific Beach, San Diego, to touch into what he describes as a mild euphoria and altered state.
第一个是 2014 年发布的，关于现实生活中的一个人，Slo Mo，我们会放一个链接，一个基本上放弃了医生生活的人，你会看到一条腿踩着溜冰鞋非常缓慢地走在圣地亚哥太平洋海滩的木板路上，进入他所描述的一种轻微的欣快感和改变的状态。
He's totally sober Clearly very, very smart.
他完全清醒，显然非常非常聪明。
And the other film we'll talk about several times, which hopefully will be out in the not-too-distant future, so we can all see a beautiful film that's being made about Ido and movement culture, called "The Architecture of Practice," correct?
我们将多次讨论的另一部电影，希望在不久的将来上映，这样我们都可以看到一部关于 Ido 和运动文化的美丽电影，名为“实践的架构”，对吗？
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
"Internal Architecture of Practice."
“实践的内部架构”。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"The Internal Architecture of Practice," excuse me.
“实践的内部架构”，对不起。
Trust me, folks, you want to see this when it comes out.
相信我，伙计们，当它发布时你会想看到它。
It's visually beautiful and content-rich.
它视觉上很美，内容也很丰富。
It's spectacular.
太壮观了。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's something really special there, for sure.
当然，那里有一些非常特别的东西。
But I wrote down, actually, play versus discipline.
但实际上，我写下了游戏与纪律。
I think for some people, it would be helpful to try and operationalize a bit of what we're going to go to today.
我认为对于某些人来说，尝试并实施我们今天要讨论的一些内容会很有帮助。
And I know you're not a fan of morning routine or this or that, but I can imagine walking toward a practice of any kind, a workout of any kind, making scrambled eggs, as either I'm going to approach this with a sense of play, or I'm going to approach this with a sense of discipline.
我知道你不喜欢早上的例行公事或这个或那个，但我可以想象走向任何类型的练习，任何类型的锻炼，制作炒鸡蛋，因为我要么会带着游戏感来处理这件事，要么我会带着纪律感来处理这件事。
I'm going to try and find some friction, some edges that force me to rewire something.
我将尝试寻找一些摩擦，一些迫使我重新布线的边缘。
Now, play can help rewire, discipline can help rewire.
现在，玩耍可以帮助重新布线，纪律可以帮助重新布线。
But of your waking hours, what percentage of time do you spend in kind of a playful, explorative state, kind of keep it light and loose versus, I know you're also a believer in there's really value to putting up mental or physical or both corridors so that your system, your whole system improves.
但是，在你醒着的时间里，你有多少时间处于一种玩耍、探索的状态，保持轻松和放松的状态，我知道你也相信建立精神或身体或两者的走廊确实有价值，这样你的系统，你的整个系统就会得到改善。
Because at those friction points is where plasticity can be triggered.
因为在这些摩擦点上可以触发可塑性。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
I think both of these things, and also the relation to motivation in both of them, are required scaffoldings that we have to use at certain points in time, but are not the essential will.
我认为这两件事，以及它们与动机的关系，都是我们在某些时候必须使用的必要脚手架，但不是本质意志。
That connection to what we don't know nothing about that.
与我们一无所知的联系。
We have researched that deeply in various spheres, but often we just replace pure will with discipline or with motivation.
我们在各个领域对此进行了深入研究，但通常我们只是用纪律或动机取代纯粹的意志。
But once I motivated myself, I don't need will anymore.
但一旦我激励自己，我就不再需要意志了。
And if I discipline myself into doing something, I also hijack the opportunity.
如果我约束自己去做某事，我也会劫持这个机会。
Playfulness, it brings a direction and a flavor of something else, a different way to interact with something.
好玩，它带来了其他事物的方向和风味，以及与事物互动的不同方式。
How do we start to look at that?
我们如何开始看待这个问题？
What is the basic requirement?
基本要求是什么？
I don't want to do this.
我不想这样做。
Without this requirement, I can't research will.
没有这个要求，我就无法研究意志。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Now, if I hijack it, if I take the process and I distort it, I use discipline, then again, I'm out of the game.
现在，如果我劫持了它，如果我接受了这个过程并扭曲了它，我使用了纪律，那么我就会再次退出游戏。
Or if I motivate myself, same problem.
或者如果我激励自己，同样的问题。
Playfulness, try to walk a different path a little bit.
贪玩，尝试走一点不同的路。
Maybe it's not it quite.
也许不完全是这样。
It's not the will, that search for will that many authors and practitioners have looked for, because it's so elusive.
许多作者和实践者所寻找的并不是意志，而是对意志的追寻，因为它是如此难以捉摸。
But it's definitely something to cultivate, and we've talked about it the last time we met.
但这绝对是需要培养的东西，我们上次见面时已经讨论过这一点。
And it brings about so many positive things.
它带来了很多积极的事情。
I think people should first develop discipline and use motivation, and also research playfulness, which is a lot more tricky for people these days.
我认为人们应该首先培养纪律并运用动力，同时还要研究乐趣，这对现在的人们来说要棘手得多。
It brings with it incredible benefits.
它带来了令人难以置信的好处。
The aesthetic intensities that are missing from our lives.
我们的生活中缺失的审美强度。
Awe, curiosity, this deep sense of curiosity.
敬畏，好奇，这种深深的好奇心。
These things can allow us to totally transform the emotional schema, which is stuck, rigid.
这些东西可以让我们彻底改变僵化的情感模式。
This model of ourselves that oftentimes rigidifies all the way to depression, the most tricky situation of all, the total bankruptcy of that budget, of those resources.
我们自己的这种模式常常会僵化，直至陷入萧条，这是最棘手的情况，预算和资源完全破产。
So something like awe, which happens also in psychedelics.
所以像敬畏之类的东西，也发生在迷幻药中。
Isn't this a huge part of the psychedelic thing?
这不是迷幻事物的重要组成部分吗？
What about experiencing awe regularly in a directed, targeted, and practiced way?
定期以有针对性的、有针对性的、练习的方式体验敬畏怎么样？
It can be cold showers and hot shower, an experience on the sensory level.
可以是冷水淋浴，也可以是热水淋浴，是一种感官层面的体验。
It can be something that is more related to the environment, like sky gazing.
它可以是与环境更相关的东西，比如凝视天空。
Incredible practice.
令人难以置信的练习。
Ten minutes a day.
每天十分钟。
Your eyes cannot grab onto things, so.
你的眼睛无法抓住事物，所以。
And it can be, and very important, conceptual awe.
这可能是而且非常重要的概念敬畏。
Reading poetry or certain types of stories or literature touches that.
阅读诗歌或某些类型的故事或文学作品会触及这一点。
So all of this comes along with playfulness, our interaction with things.
所以所有这一切都伴随着乐趣，以及我们与事物的互动。
I treat this as a playful thing.
我把这当作一件好玩的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
So if I think about it, it's almost always present, because it allows me not to rigidify myself in front of the challenge.
所以如果我仔细想想，它几乎总是存在的，因为它让我在挑战面前不会僵化自己。
I'm working with athletes or work in cinema, or do some project or work with a government body or a military organization.
我正在与运动员合作或在电影院工作，或者做一些项目或与政府机构或军事组织合作。
I bring playfulness.
我带来了乐趣。
Playfulness allows me to go much further, much deeper.
玩耍让我走得更远、更深入。
My discipline wouldn't get me there.
我的纪律不会让我到达那里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
It got me certain places.
它给我带来了某些地方。
Who got there to that place?
谁到了那个地方？
I discovered that it wasn't me, because I used discipline So it's often leaving you kind of out, the totality of you.
我发现那不是我，因为我使用了纪律，所以它经常把你排除在外，把你的整体排除在外。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I am very intrigued by this play versus discipline thing.
我对这种游戏与纪律的关系非常感兴趣。
So many years spent, I wouldn't say punching the clock, but there are just things you have to do because experiments have to be done in this time, in this way.
花了这么多年，我不会说打卡，但有些事情你必须做，因为实验必须在这个时间、以这种方式完成。
One can develop a real sense of an ability to push through and to do things, and beautiful stuff can come out of what I call chop wood, carry water.
一个人可以培养出一种真正的推动和做事的能力，我所说的砍柴、挑水可以产生美丽的东西。
It's just like phases, like, "Okay, we're just going to chop wood, carry water." But this play thing is really powerful.
就像阶段一样，“好吧，我们只是去砍柴，挑水。”不过这玩意儿确实厉害。
I had this experience when I lived in San Diego.
我住在圣地亚哥时就有过这样的经历。
My lab started there, and I used to commute really far to work because my home was in an area that I really liked and that I could afford, far from campus, and the traffic was just brutal.
我的实验室就是从那里开始的，我过去常常通勤去很远的地方，因为我的家位于我真正喜欢的地方，而且我负担得起，远离校园，交通也很糟糕。
Anyone that's ever driven in San Diego, these big, wide eight-lane freeways.
任何曾经在圣地亚哥这些又大又宽的八车道高速公路上开车的人。
And I like listening to music, so I would drive, and I remember one morning just being so frustrated with the drive, even though traffic was moving, and I've only had this experience once, and I just decided, I'm going to just slalom the car to work.
我喜欢听音乐，所以我会开车，我记得有一天早上，尽管交通畅通，但我对开车感到非常沮丧，而且我只经历过一次这种经历，我就决定，我要绕道开车去上班。
And I wasn't speeding.
而且我并没有超速。
I'm like slaloming the car.
我就像在回旋汽车一样。
I'm listening to music, and I'm like, "This is the way to go to work." I can remember this one commute as a real standout experience in my life of like, and I thought, "Why don't I do this all the time?"
我一边听音乐，一边想，“这就是上班的方式。”我记得这次通勤是我一生中一次真正出色的经历，我想，“为什么我不一直这样做呢？”
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
The old frog crosses the street video game.
老青蛙过马路视频游戏。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Exactly.
确切地。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Remember that?
还记得吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Exactly.
正是如此。
So I'm just, and I get to work, and I do a thing, and this was one instance.
所以我只是，我开始工作，我做了一件事，这就是一个例子。
I don't think I've ever done it again.
我想我再也没有这样做过。
And I like to drive, but I never deliberately turn on, like, I'm going to take an ordinary experience that I do every single day that usually is kind of like loathe or mildly irritated at traffic.
我喜欢开车，但我从不刻意地开车，就像，我每天都会经历一种普通的经历，通常有点像厌恶或对交通有点恼火。
I'm just going to enjoy this experience.
我只是要享受这种经历。
I think now that it would be so great to just be able to apply that to all these different little transitions.
我认为现在如果能够将其应用于所有这些不同的小过渡，那就太好了。
Oddly enough, I also have flashbulb-like memories of being in Yosemite, where I've spent a lot of time.
奇怪的是，我也有在优胜美地的闪光灯般的记忆，我在那里度过了很多时间。
I've hiked a lot of the peaks in Yosemite.
我徒步旅行过优胜美地的很多山峰。
I love it.
我喜欢它。
I lived and worked up there when I was in college, and I just adore it.
我上大学时就在那里生活和工作过，我非常喜欢那里。
You know what I remember?
你知道我记得什么吗？
The great vistas and great pees that I had urinating in the woods.
美丽的景色和我在树林里小便的美好时光。
I have flashbulb memories of like, and there's something there.
我有类似的闪光灯记忆，那里有一些东西。
I think it's just the calm and relaxation, like, oh, like I'm just a creature peeing in the woods, and as one does, when you can, just thinking, like, "This is awesome." Like, my life is great.
我认为这只是平静和放松，就像，哦，就像我只是一个在树林里撒尿的生物，就像一个人一样，当你可以的时候，只是想，“这太棒了。”就像，我的生活很棒。
It's so weird that these micro-experiences that occupy 10 to 15 seconds or a minute, depending on how much water you drink, right?
很奇怪的是，这些微体验持续 10 到 15 秒或一分钟，具体取决于你喝了多少水，对吧？
One commute could grab real mental real estate in our brain.
一次通勤就可以抓住我们大脑中真正的精神空间。
There's something there, and I know people are probably thinking, like, "This is crazy," but I think most people would probably describe kind of odd flashbulb memories that they have of things that are kind of trivial when you think about it.
那里有一些东西，我知道人们可能会想，比如“这太疯狂了”，但我认为大多数人可能会描述一种奇怪的闪光灯记忆，当你想到这些事情时，这些记忆有点微不足道。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Did you notice that the quality of those memories, because you recall them, and it has a flavor and a texture and a resolution-
你是否注意到那些记忆的质量，因为你回忆起它们，它有一种味道、一种质感和一种分辨率——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
...
...
which is different than other things, which sometimes should have been a lot more detailed.
这与其他事情不同，有时应该更详细。
And it comes and goes, but we can become a lot more deliberate about it, and it represents a certain presence in that specific scenario of a heightened, it's a heightened presence thing.
它来来去去，但我们可以对它变得更加深思熟虑，它代表了在特定场景中的某种高度存在，这是一种高度存在的事物。
Why?
为什么？
Those are questions, but playfulness opens the door for that.
这些都是问题，但好玩为这个问题打开了大门。
Some of my best sits, my best meditations were using a playful approach.
我最好的一些静坐、冥想都是采用一种有趣的方式。
Similarly to how you navigate the traffic, you can use it writing your book.
与导航交通的方式类似，您可以使用它来写书。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I tried that.
我试过了。
I will tell you, it's very difficult because there's aspects of the book that are very technical.
我会告诉你，这非常困难，因为这本书的某些方面非常技术性。
There are aspects where I really want to communicate things in a certain way.
在某些方面我真的很想以某种方式传达事物。
I definitely tried to relax myself.
我确实尝试让自己放松。
Cal Newport, who's a sort of a guy who's a big proponent of deep work, staying away from technology to writing by hand, typewriter, this kind of thing.
卡尔·纽波特（Cal Newport）是深度工作的大力支持者，远离技术而用手写、打字机之类的东西。
He said, and I tried this, he said to approach work with kind of a languid intentionality, kind of relaxed, but with a direction.
他说，我尝试过这个，他说要以一种慵懒的意向性、一种放松的态度来对待工作，但要有方向。
I tried it.
我试过了。
I have to scruff myself and bring myself to it.
我必须克制自己并让自己接受它。
Even though I want to do it, and I just like have to, like I imagine I'm doing this.
尽管我想这样做，而且我只是喜欢不得不这样做，就像我想象的那样。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
But that deep belief-
但那深深的信念——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
...
...
is already a self-fulfilling prophecy because you perceive yourself as that person.
已经是一个自我实现的预言，因为你认为自己就是那个人。
This is the way for you to do things.
这就是你做事的方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
And I'm similar, but I've glimpsed something else.
我也很相似，但我看到了一些别的东西。
Yes, I also am the disciplinary person.
是的，我也是纪律人员。
I'm a person of great work ethic, and this is how I came about.
我是一个具有良好职业道德的人，这就是我的来历。
But then I discovered it doesn't matter because how you write that book, using that approach, it leaks into your words, and it's a different way of doing things.
但后来我发现这并不重要，因为你如何写那本书，使用那种方法，它会渗透到你的言语中，这是一种不同的做事方式。
You're not going to write Don Quixote in this way.
你不会这样写《堂吉诃德》。
So I appreciate that.
所以我很欣赏这一点。
And I also want to say, come back to that thing.
我还想说，回到那件事上来。
This scaffolding, the fact that we have used discipline for such a long time is very positive.
这个脚手架，我们长期以来使用纪律的事实是非常积极的。
We need that.
我们需要那个。
The first thing is to get things done.
第一件事就是把事情做好。
I'm the practice person.
我是练习者。
I'm the met person.
我就是那个遇见的人
You do it, or you talk about it.
你做它，或者你谈论它。
So discipline is very important, but it's similar to the wall in learning to do a handstand.
所以纪律非常重要，但它类似于学习倒立时的墙壁。
If you use the wall one way, where you're all the time pushing yourself off of the wall, try to catch your handstand, you become reliant on the wall.
如果你以一种方式使用墙壁，你总是把自己推离墙壁，尝试抓住你的倒立，你就会变得依赖墙壁。
Notice what I said.
注意我说的话。
You push yourself off of the wall, but there is a different approach.
你把自己从墙上推下来，但有一种不同的方法。
We can use the wall but pull off of it, not quite push ourself off of it, but pull off of it, which comes from the other end, from our hands, from the connection to the ground.
我们可以使用墙壁，但可以从它上拉下来，不是完全把自己推离它，而是从它上拉下来，它来自另一端，来自我们的手，来自与地面的连接。
That does not necessitate the wall So I can pull myself when I feel myself falling forward later on.
这并不需要墙壁，所以当我感觉自己向前跌倒时，我可以拉自己。
This is the correct way to use discipline.
这才是运用纪律的正确方法。
You should use it as a scaffolding, as a way to get things going, like write that book.
你应该用它作为脚手架，作为让事情顺利进行的一种方式，就像写那本书一样。
But inside the process, you must make sure you don't lean hard into it, you don't leave everything for it to dictate, and you bring some playfulness, some relaxation, some deep choice.
但在这个过程中，你必须确保你不会过度依赖它，你不会让一切都听其指挥，你要带来一些乐趣，一些放松，一些深刻的选择。
I want to do this.
我想做这个。
It's so elusive.
真是太难以捉摸了。
It's so tiny.
它是如此之小。
Our life didn't leave any room for it anymore.
我们的生活已经不再有任何余地了。
We don't even recognize when will come to visit us.
我们甚至不知道什么时候会来拜访我们。
And here is the big shocker, it was for me, that I discovered.
这是我发现的最令人震惊的事情。
One does not develop the will.
一个人没有发展意志。
The will never gets developed.
意志永远不会得到发展。
It only gets exposed.
它只会被暴露。
Discipline gets developed.
纪律得到发展。
That's what we mistaken will for.
这就是我们误认为意志的原因。
We call it will, willpower, et cetera.
我们称之为意志、意志力等等。
But when a child is born with a problem, when you're facing such a situation, discipline might not be enough for you to do what is necessary.
但是，当一个孩子出生时就有问题，当你面临这种情况时，纪律可能不足以让你做必要的事情。
Or when a child is born normal, and you simply don't feel love for that child.
或者当一个孩子出生时很正常，而你根本就不爱那个孩子。
That occurs a lot.
这种情况经常发生。
What do I do now?
我现在该怎么办？
Do I discipline myself?
我自律吗？
I need a different quality, and I need to research it, and I need to open up space for it in my life, space to practice it because it's not going to come from somewhere else.
我需要一种不同的品质，我需要研究它，我需要在我的生活中为它开辟空间，练习它的空间，因为它不会来自其他地方。
And the practice will not develop it, but it will expose an invisible thread.
而实践不会发展它，但会暴露出一条看不见的线索。
It's a sequentiality.
这是一个先后顺序。
I always do what I said I'm going to do.
我总是做我说过要做的事。
But not by disciplinary action, but by having a beautiful evasive sequence, like you moving around the traffic, finding your way there.
但不是通过纪律处分，而是通过一个漂亮的回避序列，就像你在车流中移动，找到通往那里的路。
You never stopped looking for the best route.
你从未停止寻找最佳路线。
It's a very different approach than just pushing the gas pedal forward.
这是一种与仅仅向前推动油门踏板截然不同的方法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
What's interesting is the traffic example, while trivial, it hopefully describes a process that people could relate to.
有趣的是流量示例，虽然微不足道，但它希望描述了人们可以关联的过程。
Not only did I not lose energy from it, but I might have even picked up some energy.
我不仅没有因此而失去能量，甚至可能还获得了一些能量。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Beautiful.
美丽。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the commute was exactly the same.
通勤时间也完全一样。
So there's something in that experience, and you're explaining it beautifully, this distinction between the will, willpower, the expression of the will, and then discipline.
所以在那种经历中有些东西，你正在完美地解释它，意志、意志力、意志的表达和纪律之间的区别。
Maybe we can define the difference a little bit more so that I can understand when I'm in discipline mode versus exposing willpower.
也许我们可以稍微定义一下区别，以便我能够理解何时处于纪律模式与暴露意志力模式。
You said you can build discipline, you can't build the will.
你说你可以建立纪律，但不能建立意志。
The will is a fixed unit.
遗嘱是一个固定的单位。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
But a hidden one, a very elusive one.
但这是一个隐藏的、非常难以捉摸的。
We can discuss it more, and we will expose some things, but we will not be successful in a binary fashion.
我们可以更多地讨论它，我们会揭露一些事情，但我们不会以二元的方式取得成功。
We won't get it.
我们不会得到它。
The only way to get even a critical mass with that concept is self-practice, looking for that quality in your life.
获得这一概念的临界质量的唯一方法是自我实践，在你的生活中寻找这种品质。
And I already mentioned that the first requirement is to do things you don't want to do, which you're also a big believer in, from a variety of reasons.
我已经提到，第一个要求是做你不想做的事情，而你出于各种原因也坚信这一点。
All of them are not as important as this, because they go to serve this layer, this corrupted self, this success in this area.
所有这些都没有那么重要，因为他们去服务这个层，这个败坏的自我，这个领域的成功。
This is not important.
这并不重要。
What is important is you, not all those things.
重要的是你，而不是所有这些。
And will is actually that representation of you, the totality, the harmonious combination of all that you are comes together, and hence you can be reliable.
意志实际上是你的代表，你的全部，和谐的结合在一起，因此你可以是可靠的。
You have a sequence.
你有一个序列。
You found a way.
你找到了办法。
You cannot push this forward.
你无法推动这件事向前发展。
You cannot force this.
你不能强迫这样做。
So you need first a situation which you don't want to do.
所以你首先需要一个你不想做的情况。
So I tell people, here is the first requirement of this new practice, practice of will.
所以我告诉人们，这是这个新实践的第一个要求，意志的实践。
You have to wait for a moment you don't want to do the task.
你必须等一会儿你不想做这个任务。
That's the first thing.
这是第一件事。
Not to go to the ice bath now.
现在不要去冰浴。
This is a different process and will get you somewhere else.
这是一个不同的过程，并将带您到其他地方。
Come up with a task that only sometimes you don't want to do.
提出一个只有有时你不想做的任务。
It's a crucial difference.
这是一个至关重要的区别。
And wait for that moment.
并等待那一刻。
In that moment, catch yourself.
在那一刻，抓住自己。
And there you have to investigate.
你必须对此进行调查。
There, there is a very fine little game.
那里有一个非常精彩的小游戏。
It comes back to that playfulness that we have to play.
这又回到了我们必须玩的那种乐趣。
Do not force into it.
请勿强行插入。
Don't jailbreak it.
不要越狱它。
Don't push hard into it.
不要用力去推它。
Second problem, do not motivate yourself to do it.
第二个问题，不激励自己去做。
Don't put any YouTube clips.
不要放置任何 YouTube 剪辑。
Don't mention slogans.
别提口号了。
Relax yourself.
放松一下自己。
Essential component.
必不可少的组成部分。
Do not rigidify in front of the task.
在任务面前不要僵化。
If you do, lower the bar.
如果你这样做，请降低标准。
Find a task that has this right dosage and build up gradually and slowly.
找到一个具有正确剂量的任务，并逐渐缓慢地积累。
I like to use things like difficult physical postures, like holding your arms out for five minutes.
我喜欢使用一些困难的身体姿势，比如伸出双臂五分钟。
It's enough.
够了。
Just straight arms out.
只要伸直双臂即可。
Some people can take it further.
有些人可以更进一步。
Or three minutes, or doing a horse stance, and then wait for a critical moment.
或者三分钟，或者做马步，然后等待关键时刻。
When I'm tired, a lot of these things are very useful, so I've grown to practice those things at the end of the day.
当我累的时候，很多这些东西都非常有用，所以我逐渐在一天结束时练习这些东西。
When I'm checking out, that is the moment where I bring it about.
当我退房的时候，就是我提出这个问题的时刻。
And then you have to research, and you have to find a thread A way to get this going again and again with this gentle quality, this playfulness, this softness, and slowly increase the bar.
然后你必须研究，你必须找到一条线索，一种方法，以这种温柔的品质、这种俏皮、这种柔软，让这件事一次又一次地进行下去，并慢慢地提高标准。
What will you discover?
你会发现什么？
Your will is sufficient, is like a mosquito's fart.
你的意志就足够了，就像蚊子的屁一样。
That's the power of our will.
这就是我们意志的力量。
Even incredibly powerful people, because they only use discipline.
即使是非常强大的人，因为他们只使用纪律。
So their will is totally, they don't know how to identify it.
所以他们的意志是完全的，他们不知道如何识别它。
They don't know how to put it together.
他们不知道如何将它们组合在一起。
So you got to do stuff that is so easy, relatively easy, that you're not interested in doing it.
所以你必须做一些非常简单、相对简单的事情，以至于你没有兴趣去做。
And that's why we don't develop will.
这就是我们不培养意志的原因。
So these are some of the discoveries that I had with myself and trying to bring about this quality because, like you, I did a lot of stuff with powering through.
所以这些是我自己的一些发现，并试图实现这种品质，因为像你一样，我做了很多关于动力的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think the value of a physical practice is probably obvious to people or more intuitive.
我认为身体练习的价值对于人们来说可能是显而易见的或更直观的。
Like, okay, for some people, exercise, working out, movement practice, perhaps.
就像，好吧，对于某些人来说，也许是锻炼、锻炼、运动练习。
There'll be days when they want to do it, there'll be days when they don't want to do it.
会有他们想做的日子，也会有他们不想做的日子。
If I understand correctly, the idea is to get right up to that edge, and then instead of throwing oneself across that threshold or getting enough caffeine in yourself to get across that threshold or doing hyperventilation breathing to get all the things to kick up adrenaline.
如果我理解正确的话，我们的想法是直接到达那个边缘，然后而不是让自己跨过那个阈值，或者让自己摄入足够的咖啡因来跨过这个阈值，或者进行过度换气呼吸来让所有的事情激发肾上腺素。
You're talking about getting right there, relaxing, and almost letting yourself sort of drift across.
你说的是到达那里，放松，几乎让自己漂流过去。
But am I pushing a little bit?
但我是不是有点有点冲动了？
Am I giving myself a nudge to keep going?
我是否在鼓励自己继续前进？
Okay, so I don't expect myself to just default into it.
好吧，所以我不希望自己默认这样做。
Okay, do you still have to do that?
好吧，你还需要这样做吗？
You've been doing movement practice many years.
你已经练习动作很多年了。
Are there days when you feel that resistance, and you have to kind of nudge yourself?
是否有那么几天你会感到阻力，而你必须推动自己？
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Of course.
当然。
If I don't feel the resistance, I don't have will.
如果我感觉不到阻力，我就没有意志。
I don't develop will, and I don't have will.
我没有培养意志，也没有意志。
The whole point of will is that it only comes to visit, and it's only necessary when there is a resistance.
意志的全部意义在于，它只是来拜访，并且只有在遇到阻力时才需要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you see those as opportunities.
所以你将这些视为机会。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
As well.
也是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
As well, but this is the trick.
也一样，但这就是窍门。
But to answer your question, my answer might be a bit trickier than what most people assume.
但要回答你的问题，我的答案可能比大多数人想象的要棘手一些。
They want the removal of the problem.
他们希望解决问题。
And will, that's the whole point of will.
还有意志，这就是意志的全部意义。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Not to remove the problem and not to also jailbreak it.
不是要消除问题，也不是越狱它。
And you've described it beautifully.
你已经把它描述得很漂亮了。
And imagine even that clip that you saw, or over the last years, things that you see me do, they're not impressive anymore.
想象一下，即使是你看过的那个片段，或者过去几年里，你看到我做的事情，它们也不再令人印象深刻了。
I can still kick up here and do a one-arm handstand in the center of the room.
我仍然可以在这里踢腿并在房间中央做单臂倒立。
How my body looks different, by choice, and how I move is different because I discovered this is not going anywhere.
我的身体看起来有所不同，这是我的选择，我的移动方式也有所不同，因为我发现这不会有任何改变。
I've already been there.
我已经去过那里了。
I've already done that.
我已经这么做了。
I've used motivation, discipline.
我使用了激励和纪律。
This quality, I'm looking for something much more powerful, but much more gentle as well.
对于这种品质，我正在寻找更强大但也更温和的东西。
So I had to go back to baby steps and to play that game that you just mentioned beautifully, the edge, stand at the edge.
所以我必须回到婴儿步骤并玩你刚才提到的漂亮的游戏，边缘，站在边缘。
And it has to be an edge.
而且它必须是一个优势。
You're almost not sure if you choose that task, whether it's difficult enough or not.
你几乎不确定自己是否选择了这项任务，无论它是否足够困难。
It's not the only practice.
这不是唯一的做法。
It's just another flavor that is important for us to practice.
这只是我们练习的另一种很重要的味道。
I still practice my discipline.
我仍然遵守我的纪律。
I still practice extremely difficult things.
我仍然练习极其困难的事情。
But it's an important flavor that I missed.
但这是我错过的一个重要的味道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
And I think most people are missing it.
我认为大多数人都错过了它。
They have no interest in doing it.
他们没有兴趣这样做。
It's too easy.
这太容易了。
They don't understand the point is not in the task at all.
他们不明白重点根本不在任务中。
The point is in the quality that develops, the attribute that develops inside of us, which is one of the most important basic attributes.
重点在于发展的品质，即我们内在发展的属性，这是最重要的基本属性之一。
I want to know when I'm going to war with you, whatever war that is, that you're reliable to have a word, and that cannot rely on caffeine or on discipline.
我想知道什么时候我要和你打仗，无论是什么战争，你说话都是可靠的，而这不能依赖咖啡因或纪律。
And you can play this game.
你可以玩这个游戏。
I'm right now extremely jet-lagged, so I'm very tired.
我现在时差反应非常严重，所以我很累。
So I play this game with myself.
所以我和自己玩这个游戏。
I have this little internal smile here in my jaw, inside.
我的下巴里有一丝内心的微笑。
I pay attention to what is going on in the internal realm, this interoceptive thing, and I play a game.
我关注内部领域正在发生的事情，这种内感受的事情，然后我玩一个游戏。
Before, I used to kind of push against it, harden against it, and push through whatever needs to be done.
以前，我常常会抵制它，坚定地反对它，并坚持完成任何需要做的事情。
And so this way of practicing taught me a lot.
所以这种练习方式教会了我很多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。
AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens.
AG1 是一种维生素矿物质益生菌饮料，还包含益生元和适应原。
I discovered AG1 way back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since.
我早在 2012 年就发现了 AG1，那时我还没有播客，从那时起我就每天都在服用它。
The reason I started taking AG1, and the reason I still take it every day, is because AG1 is, to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market.
我开始服用 AG1 的原因，以及我仍然每天服用的原因，是因为据我所知，AG1 是市场上质量最高、最全面的基础营养补充剂。
AG1 is designed to support things like gut health, immune health, and overall energy.
AG1 旨在支持肠道健康、免疫健康和整体能量等。
And it does so by helping to fill any gaps that you might have in your daily nutrition.
它通过帮助填补您日常营养中可能存在的任何缺口来实现这一目标。
I get asked pretty much all the time, "If I could only take one supplement, what should that supplement be?" And my answer is always AG1.
我经常被问到，“如果我只能服用一种补充剂，那么该补充剂应该是什么？”我的答案始终是AG1。
It has just been so helpful for supporting all aspects of physical health, mental health, and performance.
它对于支持身体健康、心理健康和表现的各个方面都非常有帮助。
If you would like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 以获得特别优惠。
For a limited time, AG1 is giving away a free bottle of their new omega-3 coenzyme Q10 product.
AG1 限时免费赠送一瓶新的 omega-3 辅酶 Q10 产品。
Omega-3 and coenzyme Q10 are known to support cardiovascular health, cellular health, and energy generally, brain health, and much more.
众所周知，Omega-3 和辅酶 Q10 可支持心血管健康、细胞健康、能量、大脑健康等。
I personally take them both every day.
我个人每天都会服用它们。
Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a free bottle of the new omega-3 coenzyme Q10 with your first AG1 subscription.
同样，请访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman，首次订阅 AG1 即可免费获得一瓶新型 omega-3 辅酶 Q10。
Yeah, I'm very intrigued by this notion of play because I do think that it's energy conserving, if not energy building.
是的，我对这种游戏的概念非常感兴趣，因为我确实认为它即使不是能量积聚，也是能量守恒。
And it's kind of incredible.
这有点令人难以置信。
We know that neuroplasticity is triggered by friction points, some level of autonomic arousal.
我们知道神经可塑性是由摩擦点（某种程度的自主神经唤醒）触发的。
Why else would the nervous system change if it can do what it needs to do?
如果神经系统能够做它需要做的事情，为什么它会发生变化呢？
You need a change in the milieu, the chemical environment.
你需要改变环境、化学环境。
But if one can get it from play, that's awesome, because the other thing takes literally adrenaline, norepinephrine.
但如果一个人能从游戏中获得它，那就太棒了，因为另一种东西实际上需要肾上腺素，去甲肾上腺素。
Yes, we love dopamine, but that little cocktail of catecholamines, as we call them, that is energy.
是的，我们喜欢多巴胺，但我们称之为儿茶酚胺的小鸡尾酒，那就是能量。
That's chi, it's energetically costly to be in that state.
这就是“气”，处于那种状态需要耗费大量精力。
Play is a different cocktail.
玩耍是一种不同的鸡尾酒。
It includes some of those, but it includes some other stuff, too.
它包括其中的一些内容，但也包括其他一些内容。
We know this neurochemically, so I'm not just speaking in metaphors.
我们在神经化学上知道这一点，所以我不只是用比喻来说话。
And it does seem to open something up, and it sounds so subtle.
它似乎确实打开了一些东西，而且听起来很微妙。
I'm going to be playful about this really important thing, this challenging thing, versus I'm going to just drill into this.
我会对这个非常重要的事情、这个具有挑战性的事情开玩笑，而不是仅仅深入研究这个问题。
The rigidity that comes about is almost instantaneous.
僵化几乎是瞬间发生的。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
And it's more representative of you in the way that I see this word, you, self, I.
在我看来，你、自我、我这个词更能代表你。
Because again, the use of that cocktail, that jailbreaking, it removes something from engaging.
因为同样，使用那种鸡尾酒，那种越狱，它会消除一些吸引力。
It numbs something.
它使某些东西麻木。
So here, this is the most crucial point.
所以在这里，这是最关键的一点。
We get to transform ourselves by choosing to do something deeply, saying, "I want to do this" in the moment that you don't want to do this.
我们可以通过选择深入地做某件事来改变自己，在你不想做的那一刻说“我想做这件事”。
To find that paradoxical thing, it's a multistability.
要找到那个吊诡的东西，那就是多重稳定性。
You have to be able to glimpse these two things, to feel this emotional contradiction, and to remain functional without collapsing.
你必须能够瞥见这两件事，感受到这种情感上的矛盾，并保持功能而不崩溃。
To remain functional and moving forward, leaning forward into the direction.
保持功能并继续前进，朝着方向前进。
This is a critical way of doing it.
这是一种关键的做法。
This is a big passion of mine in the last years, because I realized it's so crucial, such a missing component.
这是我过去几年的一大热情，因为我意识到它是如此重要，如此缺失的组成部分。
Having listened to you and various people that you brought along, it really helped me.
听了你和你带来的各种人的意见，这对我很有帮助。
Helped me see it, to understand it, to look at the scientific side, and the anatomy, and the way that we are constructing these models, and to see if that matches my experience, and what exactly is missing, and where am I lying to myself in that sense.
帮助我看到它，理解它，看看科学的一面，解剖学，以及我们构建这些模型的方式，看看这是否符合我的经验，到底缺少什么，以及从这个意义上说我在哪里对自己撒谎。
So it turned out to be a valuable insight.
结果证明这是一个有价值的见解。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's come up before on a few podcasts, and you may have heard this, but I'll just briefly describe.
它之前在一些播客上出现过，您可能已经听说过，但我将简要描述一下。
Finally, thanks to the work largely of my colleague Joe Parvizi at Stanford, we have a neurological understanding of tenacity and willpower and the plasticity.
最后，很大程度上要感谢我在斯坦福大学的同事乔·帕尔维兹（Joe Parvizi）的工作，我们对坚韧、意志力和可塑性有了神经学的理解。
It's this anterior midcingulate cortex that gets activated when we don't want to do something and we force ourselves to do it, and that structure enlarges, and it becomes easier to access.
当我们不想做某事而强迫自己去做某事时，前中扣带皮层就会被激活，并且该结构会扩大，并且变得更容易接近。
And so, in that sense, the discipline piece really can be built up.
因此，从这个意义上说，纪律部分确实可以建立起来。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Definitely.
绝对是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The recognition that, oh, the I don't want to do this feels a lot like the I don't want to do that, and I was able to do that, that anterior midcingulate cortex can go to work on a number of things.
认识到，哦，我不想这样做，感觉很像我不想这样做，但我能够做到这一点，前中扣带皮层可以做很多事情。
It's a real thing.
这是真实的事情。
We don't yet have the correlate structure for the play piece.
我们还没有该游戏的相关结构。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Definitely.
绝对是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it may be distributed.
并且它可能是分布式的。
We always want to think there's a structure, the amygdala, fear, anterior midcingulate cortex, tenacity, but these are circuit phenomena.
我们总是想认为有一种结构，杏仁核、恐惧、前中扣带皮层、坚韧，但这些都是电路现象。
But it would be so nice to be able to find-
但如果能够找到的话那就太好了——
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Of course
当然
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a neural correlate because there does seem to be something very special about people in their 70s, 80s, 90s, who they're in the longevity game, clearly, and they're taking great care of their bodies and their minds, but there's a playful spirit in there that is never discussed in this whole longevity thing.
这是一种神经相关性，因为70多岁、80多岁、90多岁的人似乎确实有一些非常特别的东西，他们在长寿游戏中很明显，他们非常照顾自己的身体和思想，但其中有一种在整个长寿问题上从未讨论过的顽皮精神。
But it's clearly very, very crucial.
但这显然非常非常重要。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Hard to research that, of course, from obvious reasons.
当然，出于显而易见的原因，很难研究这一点。
Much more easier to research discipline.
研究学科要容易得多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
To be playful, I want to give something positive.
为了好玩，我想给予一些积极的东西。
We all meet this quality.
我们都符合这种品质。
Even many of us believe, I never am in this state.
甚至我们很多人都相信，我从来没有处于这种状态。
Investigate.
调查。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Investigate into your past.
调查你的过去。
Like you mentioned this moment of driving, but I want to tell you something.
就像你提到的开车的那一刻，但我想告诉你一些事情。
Investigate yesterday.
昨天调查一下。
It was also there for moments, for brief moments.
它也在那里存在了片刻，短暂的片刻。
And by studying this, you would help yourself because it is always present.
通过研究这个，你会对自己有所帮助，因为它总是存在的。
It's almost guaranteed to be there, even in extremely depressed people.
即使对于极度抑郁的人来说，它几乎肯定会存在。
Part of the problem of depression is this rigidity to change, to recognize these positive moments, and to transform the model.
抑郁症的部分问题在于这种僵化的态度，无法改变、无法认识到这些积极的时刻，也无法改变模式。
So we don't end up harvesting it, but it's there.
所以我们最终并没有收获它，但它就在那里。
It's an important thing because without learning the flavor and the texture of that, we have no chance of approaching that, developing this playfulness, this will, this softness about things that can do a lot.
这是一件很重要的事情，因为如果不了解它的味道和质地，我们就没有机会接近它，发展这种有趣、这种意志、这种可以做很多事情的柔软性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's a third bin which I think people default to, including myself.
我认为人们默认了第三个垃圾箱，包括我自己。
I think about discipline, will, or laziness, sloth, and wasting time.
我想到纪律、意志，或者懒惰、懒惰和浪费时间。
Right now, we're talking about using discipline or a mode of play to do something.
现在，我们正在谈论使用纪律或游戏模式来做某事。
These days, it seems a lot of having a good life is about not doing certain things.
如今，美好的生活似乎很大程度上取决于不做某些事情。
Mostly, for most people, not having your consciousness and your body pulled into algorithms I'm a fan of social media.
大多数情况下，对于大多数人来说，没有将你的意识和身体纳入算法中，我是社交媒体的粉丝。
I learn there, I see you there, I try and teach there, but there is a way in which our body shape, our mental shape, can be structured around this wheel of infinite stimuli.
我在那里学习，我在那里看到你，我尝试在那里教书，但是有一种方法可以让我们的身体形态、我们的心理形态围绕这个无限刺激的轮子构建起来。
That's how I think about it now.
我现在就是这么想的。
Now when I go into social media, I think about it as a wheel of infinite stimuli, like a rat in an experiment.
现在，当我进入社交媒体时，我将其视为无限刺激的轮子，就像实验中的老鼠一样。
If I want to keep that rat engaged, just give it this, give it that.
如果我想让那只老鼠保持参与，就给它这个，给它那个。
Doesn't like this, give it that.
不喜欢这个，就给那个吧。
That's the algorithm.
这就是算法。
I try and see myself in it so that I can navigate it with some intentionality, like, "Oh, this is interesting." I'm actually quite inspired, I'm not just saying this, by the content you've put up over the years.
我试着在其中看到自己，这样我就可以有意识地驾驭它，比如，“哦，这很有趣。”事实上，我对你们多年来发布的内容颇有启发，我不仅仅是这么说的。
I really think hard about that.
我真的很认真地思考这一点。
I've gone and looked up authors, your philosophers, and many things I don't know.
我查阅了作家、哲学家以及许多我不知道的事情。
So I follow up on those.
所以我会跟进这些。
In the domain of strength training, there's this guy, Tom Havilland.
在力量训练领域，有一个人，汤姆·哈维兰。
I think he used to be Australian Special Forces.
我认为他曾经是澳大利亚特种部队。
He only posts from the back.
他只从后面发帖。
He doesn't disclose his identity.
他没有透露自己的身份。
Very large guy, doing Zurcher squats, where the bar is in the crook of the elbow with 500 plus pounds with pauses, and a few really impressive feats of strength.
非常大的家伙，在做 Zurcher 深蹲，杠铃位于肘部弯曲处，暂停时承受 500 多磅的重量，还有一些令人印象深刻的力量壮举。
So I see and learn and am inspired by things I see on social media.
所以我在社交媒体上看到、学习并受到一些东西的启发。
Sends me down the path of learning.
引领我走上学习的道路。
I didn't even know what a Zurcher squat was until recently.
直到最近我才知道什么是祖彻深蹲。
It's kind of cool.
这有点酷。
I know the crooks of elbows could hold that much, and the core bracing is really interesting.
我知道肘弯可以承受这么多，而且核心支撑真的很有趣。
But a lot of my life these days is about, no, this is not a stimulus space I want to spend time in.
但现在我生活的很多内容都是关于，不，这不是我想花时间的刺激空间。
I'm 50 now.
我现在50岁了。
I don't know how long I'll live, hopefully a long time, but allocation of energy is 90% of the game of life, right?
我不知道我还能活多久，希望是很长一段时间，但能量的分配是人生游戏的90%，对吧？
Maybe more.
也许更多。
So when you think about practices for resisting doing something, the no-go, as we say in neuroscience, not go tasks, but no-go, how do you think about pulling back in a playful way?
因此，当你想到抵制做某事的做法时，正如我们在神经科学中所说的那样，“不做”不是“去做任务”，而是“不做”，你如何看待以一种有趣的方式撤退？
That's a little bit harder.
这有点难。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Beautiful question, and very important thing to look at, to examine.
美丽的问题，也是非常重要的事情，需要观察、检验。
And I can offer my personal experiences.
我可以提供我的个人经历。
That's the only thing that I can.
这是我唯一能做的。
But again, the pullback, deleting the app.
但再次撤回，删除该应用程序。
Take something off.
脱掉一些东西。
Throwing your phone on the rooftop.
把手机扔到屋顶上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Done it.
完成了。
You've done it.
你已经做到了。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Yeah.
是的。
That's why I mentioned it.
这就是我提到它的原因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Because you told me-
因为你告诉我——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
...
...
last time we met.
上次我们见面时。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
When I used to have to write grants, I would either give my phone to my students, early days, and I'd say, "If I ask for that back before 5:00 PM today, everyone in lab gets $100 bill." I didn't have the money to do that.
当我过去必须写资助金时，早期我要么把手机给我的学生，然后我会说，“如果我在今天下午 5:00 之前要求回来，实验室里的每个人都会收到 100 美元的账单。”我没有钱这么做。
I didn't ask for it back by 5:00.
5:00 之前我没有要求归还。
Or throw it on the roof and go get it later.
或者把它扔到屋顶上，稍后再去取。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
And this action, I'm not against it.
而这个行动，我并不反对。
Maybe it sounds like it's jailbreaking something, but it's a required moment.
也许听起来像是在越狱，但这是必要的时刻。
One of the first thing with will is the recognition that we're not in contact with it, that we don't possess, and we should verify it for ourselves by trying to do things which are definitely possible, and we can't.
拥有意志的第一件事就是认识到我们没有接触到它，我们不拥有它，我们应该通过尝试做一些绝对可能但我们做不到的事情来亲自验证它。
We can't do them.
我们做不到。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
How do I pull back in this way?
我该如何以这种方式撤退？
Isn't this good to delete the app?
删掉这个app不好吗？
It's a way of paying upfront.
这是一种预先付款的方式。
It's painful and it's costly.
这很痛苦，而且代价高昂。
It's expensive.
它很贵。
It's a required thing.
这是一件必需的事情。
Part of me say, "I'm not sure I'll be here in a few more moments.
我内心的一部分会说：“我不确定自己是否还能再待在这里。
I'm going to take this action." It reminds me of, I have great fear of heights.
我将采取这一行动。”这让我想起，我有很强的恐高症。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You?
你？
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Yeah.
是的。
It reminds me when I went to bungee jump the first time with friends, decades ago in Greece.
这让我想起几十年前我第一次和朋友去希腊蹦极的时候。
And I'm climbing up there, and I'm watching down this tiny swimming pool from the crane, and I realized in that moment there is no way I'm jumping down.
我爬到那里，从起重机上俯瞰这个小游泳池，在那一刻我意识到我不可能跳下去。
And the other part of me realized there is no way I'm climbing down, the girls screaming down there, and I just stood there, and I just kind of threw myself forward.
我的另一部分意识到我不可能爬下来，女孩们在下面尖叫，我只是站在那里，我只是向前冲。
I jailbreaked it.
我越狱了。
Years after, I redone it with a different quality.
几年后，我以不同的质量重做了它。
I softened into it.
我软化了它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
And I found a way to come down feeling this great pain, physical pain, and at the same time, the multistability.
我找到了一种方法来感受这种巨大的痛苦，身体上的痛苦，同时感受到多重稳定性。
Feel a softness, a wave of softness passing through me, as tiny as it was.
感觉一种柔软，一股柔软的波浪穿过我，尽管它很小。
So when I'm pulling back, it's very important that I interact with this action also in that way.
所以当我撤退时，以这种方式与这个动作互动是非常重要的。
That I don't force myself in a sadomasochistic way, that I don't do this action from that place.
我不会以施虐受虐的方式强迫自己，我不会从那个地方做这个动作。
Maybe it's the beginning of the process.
也许这是这个过程的开始。
Maybe it's something that is a required stepping stone, something that you have to do.
也许这是必要的垫脚石，是你必须做的事情。
But later, you learn to soften into it, and eventually, you can leave the app.
但后来，你学会了软化它，最终，你可以离开该应用程序。
You don't delete it, and it's there, and you keep on softening as it jumps, calling you back again and again and again.
你不删除它，它就在那里，当它跳跃时你不断软化，一次又一次地呼唤你回来。
And you've developed this feedback.
你已经形成了这个反馈。
You've changed, you've transformed your model, and there is a new reaction to that stimulus, and you relax.
你已经改变了，你已经改变了你的模型，对这种刺激有了新的反应，你就放松了。
When the stimulus calls your name, you recognize it, note it, and the first thing that you do, you soften yourself, you relax, you put a little smile on, and only then do you go back to the task at hand.
当刺激呼唤你的名字时，你认出它，记下它，你做的第一件事就是软化自己，放松，露出一点微笑，然后才回到手头的任务。
You change the way.
你改变一下方式。
Instead of saying, "No, I don't want to go back into social media now, I want to work on my book," and forcing yourself back, you take another extra step.
你不要说“不，我现在不想回到社交媒体，我想写我的书”，然后强迫自己回去，而是再采取额外的一步。
"Oh, it's calling my name again I note it, I recognized it, I soften myself, and only then do I go back to the task at hand.
“哦，它又在呼唤我的名字了，我注意到了它，我认出了它，我软化了自己，然后我才回到手头的任务。
The outcome would be totally different millions of times forward, done again and again.
重复数百万次，结果将完全不同。
You would be amazed by the difference.
您会对其中的差异感到惊讶。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I absolutely get what you're saying, that there's something about paying attention to the subtle ripples.
我完全明白你的意思，那就是关注微妙的涟漪是有道理的。
Like they're these ripples.
就像它们是这些涟漪一样。
And that language of the subtle ripples of consciousness makes it sound like I'm trying to be poetic, but I really can't find a better language than these subtle ripples.
这种意识微妙涟漪的语言听起来像是我在努力诗意，但我真的找不到比这些微妙涟漪更好的语言。
It's the same thing, I believe, as noticing the transition between asleep and awake, just a little bit more each day.
我相信，这与注意到睡着和醒着之间的转变是一样的，只是每天多一点点。
Maybe some days you miss it, you just pop up and go into the day, and then you realize, "I missed that." There were these ripples in between.
也许有些日子你错过了，你突然出现并进入这一天，然后你意识到，“我错过了。”其间有这些涟漪。
But catching them-
但抓住他们——
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
This is one of the most important attributes also in the physical body that I believe is totally missing from our physical, modern movement culture, physical practice, granularity.
这也是身体最重要的属性之一，我认为我们的身体、现代运动文化、身体实践、粒度完全缺失了这一属性。
I call it bodily resolution in the application to the body.
我将其应用到身体上，称之为身体分辨率。
Notice I'm not talking about mobility or definitely not about flexibility.
请注意，我不是在谈论移动性，也绝对不是在谈论灵活性。
There is a certain refinement, and with it, a certain complexity, that if it's not challenged by novelty and by certain qualities of attention, there is a deterioration of the model.
有一定的改进，也有一定的复杂性，如果没有受到新颖性和某些注意力质量的挑战，模型就会恶化。
There is a simplification.
有一个简化。
There is a hardening of the body schema.
身体图式出现硬化。
It becomes more black and white-ish, and living in this physical form becomes hell.
它变得更加黑白分明，生活在这种物质形态中就变成了地狱。
The same thing happens in the emotional schema, in the emotional model of ourselves, and the same thing happens on the conceptual or intellectual abstraction model.
同样的事情发生在情感图式、我们自己的情感模型中，同样的事情也发生在概念或智力抽象模型上。
The same thing happen in the social schema.
同样的事情也发生在社会模式中。
The same thing happen on the spatial schema.
同样的事情也发生在空间模式上。
If you don't continue to make it detailed and to appreciate the details, you will have a deterioration.
如果你不继续细化并欣赏细节，你就会退化。
You're moving up or down.
你正在向上或向下移动。
There is no status quo.
没有现状。
It's never stable.
它永远不稳定。
Hence, guess what?
因此，你猜怎么着？
Most people going to the gym, doing these runs, they totally lost something, and they don't even know.
大多数人去健身房，进行这些跑步，他们完全失去了一些东西，而他们甚至不知道。
They're not as they were as children.
他们不再像小时候那样了。
They don't look like that kung fu master in Beijing, 5:00 a.m.
他们看起来不像凌晨 5:00 北京的那个功夫大师。
at the park, walking with the strut of a child.
在公园里，像孩子一样昂首阔步地行走。
We like to mention blue zones, but you don't look like the blue zones.
我们喜欢提到蓝色区域，但你看起来不像蓝色区域。
We like to mention the importance of muscle mass for longevity, but which muscle mass are you talking about?
我们喜欢提到肌肉质量对长寿的重要性，但您指的是哪种肌肉质量？
Not that muscle mass.
不是那个肌肉量。
It's a different quantity.
这是一个不同的数量。
So we kind of moved away from those fine things, and the refinement of them is very, very important.
所以我们有点远离那些美好的东西，对它们的改进是非常非常重要的。
Emotionally, the emotional granularity, to recognize it's so important.
在情感上，情感的粒度，认识到它是如此重要。
Depression puts everything into the black and white thing, so it's the extreme.
抑郁症把一切都变成非黑即白的事情，所以这是极端的。
And then the other side is very high resolution of emotional appreciation and perception that can turn against you, but only when the conceptual layer comes and manipulates that information.
另一方面是非常高分辨率的情感欣赏和感知，这可能会反对你，但只有当概念层出现并操纵该信息时。
But as long as it stays within the non-discursive, the raw thing coming from this allostatic system, the way that we define our state like poetry.
但只要它停留在非话语性的范围内，来自这个统合系统的原始事物，我们像诗歌一样定义我们的状态的方式。
That's why also reading poetry helps and reading literature helps in this way.
这就是为什么阅读诗歌也有帮助，阅读文学也有这样的帮助。
It makes you a lot more complex, and now you discover it's not a good or bad thing anymore, but you're playing a different game.
它让你变得更加复杂，现在你发现这不再是一件好事或坏事，但你正在玩一个不同的游戏。
And here is the playfulness back.
这就是俏皮的回归。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Because I'm even playing game with that.
因为我什至在玩这个游戏。
Oh, I feel bad.
哦，我感觉很糟糕。
I feel good.
我感觉很好。
I feel neutral.
我感觉中立。
That thing starts to open up.
那件事开始开放。
I abandon this, and I go back to the body.
我放弃这个，回到身体。
And that's why I like to send people back to the body.
这就是为什么我喜欢把人们送回身体。
The eye is a lot more this than what we think it is, especially meditators, et cetera.
眼睛比我们想象的要重要得多，尤其是冥想者等等。
It's not up here.
它不在这里。
And of course, they are talking about it, the way of the heart and the hara, the dantian, et cetera.
当然，他们正在谈论心之道、哈拉、丹田等等。
But you can see when somebody's embodied.
但你可以看到某人何时体现。
There are signs, there are cues to it in the way that people move, in the way that they are here, and I often don't see those clues.
人们移动的方式、他们在这里的方式都有迹象、有线索，但我常常看不到这些线索。
And then there is a great deterioration.
然后就会出现很大的恶化。
So I don't care so much about structures these days, about muscle mass, about the joint protective things, the connective tissue or whatever, because I believe the model deteriorates way before, and the consequences come after.
所以现在我不太关心结构、肌肉质量、关节保护物质、结缔组织或其他什么，因为我相信模型在之前就已经恶化了，后果在之后。
Once the model has degraded, the simulation, now we are in trouble.
一旦模型、模拟退化，我们就有麻烦了。
And now the structural effects are just following that years forward, decades forward, and when we discover it, it's too late.
现在，结构性影响就在几年后、几十年后出现，当我们发现它时，为时已晚。
Words are dangerous, like the spinal column.
言语是危险的，就像脊柱一样。
You know how many spines this destroyed?
你知道这毁掉了多少根刺吗？
Countless.
无数。
It's not a column, and treating it like a column destroys our spine.
它不是一根柱子，把它当作一根柱子会破坏我们的脊柱。
It's the way that I model myself, even in my words.
这就是我塑造自己的方式，甚至用我的话来说也是如此。
I can sense that.
我能感觉到。
I can feel that.
我能感觉到。
Different languages have different words for those things, and clues are there.
不同的语言对这些事物有不同的说法，线索就在那里。
The lack of appreciation of fine micro-actions inside the torso, in between the ribs, we don't appreciate it The way that we distribute pressure in the body.
由于缺乏对躯干内部、肋骨之间的精细微动作的欣赏，我们不欣赏它在体内分配压力的方式。
Practices that I engage with, that I teach, that I work with, they're very powerful.
我参与、教授、工作的实践非常强大。
But we don't leave room for that.
但我们不会为此留出空间。
We want to go, we want to do something quickly, crudely, and we deteriorate.
我们想要走，我们想要快速、粗暴地做某事，然后我们就恶化了。
And then we go to the protocols, we go to the help, help me.
然后我们去查看协议，我们去寻求帮助，帮助我。
And yeah, there is some help.
是的，有一些帮助。
There is definitely some help there, but to lift it into a meaningful healing is not often done, I believe, because the practice is missing.
那里肯定有一些帮助，但我相信，将其提升为有意义的治疗效果并不常见，因为缺少实践。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The notion of high-resolution versus low-resolution language, movement, and awareness.
高分辨率与低分辨率语言、运动和意识的概念。
Maybe we just grab those three, and I know there are others.
也许我们只抓住这三个，我知道还有其他的。
I think about this a lot.
我想了很多。
Let's start with language.
让我们从语言开始吧。
Lisa Feldman Barrett, who's a psychologist, I would also consider somewhat of a neuroscientist because she collaborates with neuroscientists and studies emotion.
丽莎·费尔德曼·巴雷特（Lisa Feldman Barrett）是一位心理学家，我也认为她在某种程度上是一位神经科学家，因为她与神经科学家合作并研究情绪。
And she's been very clear, and it's absolutely true, that in cultures where there's many words to describe different aspects of sadness, aspects of happiness, even some extremely specific circumstances, like there's a Japanese word, forgive me, I don't remember, for the sadness one feels after a bad haircut.
她非常清楚，而且这是绝对正确的，在有很多词语来描述悲伤、幸福的不同方面的文化中，甚至是一些极其具体的情况，比如有一个日语词，原谅我，我不记得了，因为一个人在理发不好后所感受到的悲伤。
The more nuance and specificity, the less likely people are going to default to, "I'm sad, I'm depressed," just kind of throw themselves in the broad bin.
越细致和具体，人们就越不可能默认说“我很伤心，我很沮丧”，只是把自己扔进了宽泛的垃圾箱。
And I refer to it as the emojification of mental life.
我将其称为精神生活的表情符号。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Nice.
不错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm happy, I'm sad, I'm depressed.
我快乐，我悲伤，我沮丧。
I do think that it's nice to have a range of language ability, so you can talk to people of different backgrounds.
我确实认为拥有多种语言能力是件好事，这样你就可以与不同背景的人交谈。
Some people are more hyperverbal than others.
有些人比其他人更爱言辞。
A colleague of mine at NYU, Tony Movshon, who runs the Center for Neuroscience, he described an intellectual beautifully, and you certainly fit this description, which is an intellectual is somebody who can talk about and work with a concept or something at multiple levels of granularity that are appropriate for the conversation.
我在纽约大学的一位同事托尼·莫夫森（Tony Movshon）是神经科学中心的负责人，他对知识分子进行了精彩的描述，你当然符合这个描述，知识分子是指能够在适合对话的多个粒度级别上谈论和处理概念或事物的人。
Like we're going pretty deep today, peeling back layers, looking.
就像我们今天要深入探讨一样，剥开层层，寻找。
If you have three minutes, it's a different conversation.
如果你有三分钟的时间，那就是一场不同的谈话。
But I think as you said, this is the advantage of reading more challenging books at times, or kids books, which are very simple in essence, but deliver the message in very succinctly-
但我认为正如你所说，这就是有时阅读更具挑战性的书籍或儿童书籍的优势，这些书籍本质上非常简单，但非常简洁地传达了信息-
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
generally, right?
一般来说，对吧？
So I think there's real value to working up and down the ladder in language and having that at one's disposal.
所以我认为在语言上上下努力并掌握它是真正有价值的。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
And here is another practice.
这是另一种做法。
We go back to being pragmatic.
我们回归务实。
Ambiguity.
含糊不清。
Incompleteness.
不完整。
Do you bring it about?
你带来它吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not having to have everything resolved.
不必把所有事情都解决。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
And not only in the terms of problem-solving or a physical, what we call kinetic koans.
不仅仅是在解决问题或物理方面，我们称之为动力公案。
This is great.
这太棒了。
This develops movement intelligence, something that I work with a lot.
这可以开发运动智能，这是我经常使用的东西。
Reading puzzling, symbolic texts, parables, difficult to resolve things, and maybe never resolve things.
阅读令人费解的、象征性的文本、寓言，难以解决的事情，也许永远解决不了的事情。
Or movies.
或者电影。
Watch Tarkovsky, Khodorkovsky.
观看塔可夫斯基，霍多尔科夫斯基。
It's a very different experience than Hollywood.
这是一种与好莱坞截然不同的体验。
Or watching contemporary dance, that is contemporary in the sense that I can't define it.
或者看现代舞，我无法定义它是当代的。
It's happening right now, and I'm not sure what I'm even watching here .
它现在正在发生，我什至不确定我在这里看到了什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've been taken to some contemporary dance where I thought, "I don't know what I'm watching here."
我被带去看一些现代舞，我想，“我不知道我在这里看什么。”
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Yeah.
是的。
And the first time I went to watch, I said, "I don't like it."
当我第一次去看的时候，我说：“我不喜欢它。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes.
是的。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
"And I'm going to come back."
“我会回来的。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That was the distinguishing factor between you and me.
这就是你我之间的区别因素。
But I've since developed a real appreciation for...
但从那以后我开始真正欣赏......
There are some forms of dance that Eric Jarvis, who was a guest on the podcast, neuroscientist who was going to be part of the Alvin Ailey Dance Company, took a hard left turn into neuroscience and studies language, and will say, as a relevant tangent, the species of birds that can talk are also the ones that can dance.
埃里克·贾维斯（Eric Jarvis）是播客的嘉宾，他是一位即将加入阿尔文·艾利舞蹈团的神经科学家，他对某些形式的舞蹈进行了猛烈的左转，转向神经科学并研究语言，他会说，作为一个相关的切线，会说话的鸟类也是会跳舞的鸟类。
And he thinks bodily movement based on the genetics, he studies the genetics of language, and the same genes that are in these speech areas are strongly expressed in very similar motifs-
他认为身体运动是基于遗传学的，他研究了语言的遗传学，这些言语区域中的相同基因以非常相似的图案强烈表达——
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Beautiful
美丽
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the areas of movement.
在运动领域。
So he thinks bodily movement is the fundamental language.
所以他认为身体动作是基本语言。
I'll just leave it at that.
我就这样吧。
I need to get you two in the same room at some point, and then I just want to be there listening.
我需要在某个时候让你们两个在同一个房间，然后我只想在那里听。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
If everything depends on language, we also have to be careful, because then the granularity of language will be the limiting factor, and it's huge pieces.
如果一切都取决于语言，我们也必须小心，因为语言的粒度将成为限制因素，而且它是巨大的。
So this like playing with, not Lego.
所以这就像玩，而不是乐高。
You know, there was technical Lego, the small little bits.
你知道，有技术性的乐高积木，一些小东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
I love this.
我喜欢这个。
There was a normal Lego, and then there was the big one.
有普通的乐高，还有大的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
The big chunks that you started from.
你开始的大块。
So it's like you're working with this.
所以就像你正在处理这个一样。
Words are corrupted, and they're corrupting us.
言语被腐蚀了，它们也在腐蚀我们。
And they're supposed to be containers, but they're not containers.
它们应该是容器，但它们不是容器。
They're more pointers.
他们更多的是指点。
But we've lost what they're pointing at, the simulacrum versus the simulation.
但我们已经失去了他们所指的东西，拟像与模拟。
Simulation is something that creates a model of something real.
模拟是创建真实事物的模型。
Simulacrum is now disconnected.
Simulacrum 现已断开连接。
There is not anymore that real thing.
不再有那个真实的东西了。
When I investigated this deeply with myself, I don't believe there is an inherent difference between these two, but there is definitely critical masses that can be achieved.
当我自己深入研究这个问题时，我不认为这两者之间存在本质区别，但肯定存在可以实现的临界质量。
For example, the sensory thing, sensory motor thing, is a lot less corrupted than the conceptual schema.
例如，感觉事物、感觉运动事物比概念图式的破坏要少得多。
Even that is not reality.
即使那也不是现实。
The senses don't bring reality.
感官并不能带来现实。
They model reality.
他们模拟现实。
They are simulation machines
它们是模拟机器
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Everything we experience is an abstraction of what our senses are pulling into our brain.
我们所经历的一切都是我们的感官输入大脑的抽象。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Which means ignoring uniqueness, erasing differences for the sake of communicating it to the system, even on the level of sensation, because it would be overwhelming.
这意味着为了将其传达给系统而忽略独特性、消除差异，即使是在感觉层面上，因为这会让人不知所措。
We would be crushed by reality if the bandwidth is opened fully.
如果带宽完全开放，我们就会被现实压垮。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Certainly, if it was opened all at once.
当然，如果一次性全部打开的话。
I'm-
我是——
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
This is also what happens with psychedelics, by the way, sometimes
顺便说一句，有时迷幻药也会发生这种情况
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Too much pours in, yeah.
太多了，是的。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
There is a bandwidth expansion.
有带宽扩展。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Too much crosstalk.
串扰太多。
We should acknowledge this.
我们应该承认这一点。
In the studies of psilocybin and where it has been shown to improve major depression, the typical outcome is scan before, I should mention this is therapy-assisted psychedelic experience, not just recreational.
在裸盖菇素的研究中，它已被证明可以改善重度抑郁症，典型的结果是之前的扫描，我应该提到这是治疗辅助的迷幻体验，而不仅仅是娱乐。
Therapy, therapy, therapy.
治疗，治疗，治疗。
Therapy with psychedelics.
用致幻剂治疗。
Therapy, therapy, therapy.
治疗，治疗，治疗。
Therapy with psychedelic.
用迷幻剂治疗。
We're talking about psilocybin here.
我们在这里谈论裸盖菇素。
Therapy, therapy, therapy, therapy, therapy.
治疗，治疗，治疗，治疗，治疗。
Not just head into the woods, eat a bunch of mushrooms, talk to your friends.
不仅仅是走进树林，吃一堆蘑菇，和你的朋友聊天。
The most consistent observation in the brain is a lot more connectivity between areas that weren't communicating prior to that, which can offer new opportunities for insight, new opportunities for its literal integration, and the unmasking of connections that were there but were more or less suppressed.
大脑中最一致的观察结果是，之前没有沟通的区域之间有了更多的联系，这可以提供新的洞察机会、新的整合机会，以及揭露那些原本存在但或多或少受到抑制的联系。
This can be a really good thing.
这可能是一件非常好的事情。
It can also be a really bad thing.
这也可能是一件非常糟糕的事情。
One of the hallmark definitions of psychosis is clang associations, where people with schizophrenia or other forms of psychosis will say, "This is a really cool cup up.
精神病的标志性定义之一是铿锵联想，患有精神分裂症或其他形式精神病的人会说，“这真是一个很酷的杯子。
So everything's moving up.
所以一切都在进步。
Well, the stock market..." And they just follow the language in a meaningless way that any non-psychotic person says all they're doing is following the rhyming of the words.
好吧，股市……”他们只是以一种毫无意义的方式遵循语言，任何非精神病人都会说他们所做的只是遵循单词的押韵。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Those are not good connections to follow if you want to be functional in the world.
如果你想在这个世界上发挥作用，这些并不是很好的联系。
You might write an interesting book using that tool consciously, but these people live in that reality.
你可能有意识地使用该工具写一本有趣的书，但这些人生活在这个现实中。
So the pouring in and the cross-connectivity, the plasticity, it's not always a good thing.
因此，涌入、交叉连接、可塑性，并不总是一件好事。
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, LMNT.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 LMNT。
LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't.
LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您需要的一切，没有您不需要的东西。
That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in the correct ratios, but no sugar.
这意味着电解质、钠、镁和钾的比例都正确，但不含糖。
Proper hydration is critical for brain and body function.
适当的水合作用对于大脑和身体功能至关重要。
Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish your cognitive and physical performance.
即使是轻微程度的脱水也会降低您的认知和身体表现。
It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes.
获得充足的电解质也很重要。
The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, are vital for the functioning of all cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells.
电解质（钠、镁和钾）对于体内所有细胞（尤其是神经元或神经细胞）的功能至关重要。
Drinking LMNT makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes.
饮用 LMNT 可以轻松确保您获得足够的水分和电解质。
My days tend to start really fast, meaning I have to jump right into work or right into exercise.
我的日子往往开始得很快，这意味着我必须立即投入工作或立即锻炼。
So to make sure that I'm hydrated and I have sufficient electrolytes, when I first wake up in the morning, I drink 16 to 32 ounces of water with an LMNT packet dissolved in it.
因此，为了确保我有足够的水分和足够的电解质，当我早上第一次醒来时，我会喝 16 至 32 盎司的水，其中溶解有 LMNT 包。
I also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes.
我还会在进行任何体育锻炼时饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT，尤其是在炎热的日子里，当我大量出汗并失去水和电解质时。
LMNT has a bunch of great-tasting flavors.
LMNT 有很多美味的口味。
In fact, I love them all.
事实上，我爱他们所有人。
I love the watermelon, the raspberry, the citrus, and I really love the lemonade flavor.
我喜欢西瓜、覆盆子、柑橘，而且我真的很喜欢柠檬水的味道。
So if you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with any purchase.
因此，如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman，购买任意商品即可领取免费的 LMNT 样品包。
Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.
再次强调，请访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman 索取免费样品包。
In terms of movement, I absolutely agree.
在运动方面，我绝对同意。
I think that people who are not exercising enough, not moving enough, not walking enough, are starting to approximate a C shape, internally rotated.
我认为那些锻炼得不够、运动得不够、走路得不够的人，开始接近C形，内旋。
We see that.
我们看到了这一点。
If people are taking on an exercise program, which I think is generally healthy, walking more, hopefully doing some movement that gets their heart rate up, hopefully lifting some objects that are outside their ability, so then they get stronger and so forth.
如果人们正在进行一项我认为总体上健康的锻炼计划，那就是多走路，希望做一些提高心率的运动，希望举起一些超出他们能力范围的物体，这样他们就会变得更强壮等等。
Okay, great.
好的，太好了。
Should people do all of that and then start to think about the other syllables and vowels and language of movement and incorporate that into their life?
人们是否应该做完所有这些，然后开始思考其他音节、元音和运动语言，并将其融入到他们的生活中？
Or, if given the choice, should people start with many forms of movement?
或者，如果可以选择，人们应该从多种运动形式开始吗？
And the reason I ask this is a very practical one.
我问这个问题的原因是一个非常实际的原因。
Many people will say, "Well, this all sounds great, but I got to get up in the morning, make myself breakfast, take my kids to school, do all my things.
许多人会说：“嗯，这一切听起来不错，但我必须早上起床，给自己做早餐，送孩子去学校，做我所有的事情。
I get 30 minutes.
我有30分钟的时间。
I need to get my heart rate up.
我需要提高心率。
Got to get my zone three, four.
必须到达我的三区、四区。
I now have to lift things.
我现在必须抬起东西。
You're telling me now I have to pay attention to the subtle ripples of movement?" So I could see either argument being true, that just check off the boxes, heart health, muscle health, ligaments, fight deterioration, add something on top of that, versus no, let's treat the whole system as having a lot more opportunity there and start there, no matter where you are.
你现在告诉我必须注意运动中微妙的涟漪？”所以我可以认为这两种说法都是正确的，只要勾选方框，心脏健康，肌肉健康，韧带，对抗恶化，在此基础上添加一些东西，相对于不，让我们把整个系统视为有更多的机会并从那里开始，无论你在哪里。
That's a practical question embedded in a somewhat intellectual conversation.
这是一个嵌入在某种智力对话中的实际问题。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
I'll push back.
我会反击。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
The question's already corrupted.
问题已经损坏了。
First, it's an exercise approach to physicality.
首先，这是一种锻炼身体的方法。
I have 30 minutes a day, and what do you do with the rest of your time?
我每天只有30分钟，你剩下的时间都用来做什么？
That is the pushback.
这就是阻力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
What do we do that is so important that we don't have time to pay attention to the ripples of movement when we are living our lives?
我们做了什么如此重要以至于我们在生活中没有时间去关注运动的涟漪？
Cooking, doing.
做饭，做事。
When you're listening to me, are you fully engaged and listening to me?
当你听我讲话时，你是否全神贯注地听我讲话？
Now, we are not using this time well.
现在，我们并没有很好地利用这段时间。
Even highly productive people, actually, those are often the case They're never using the time well in the sense of that presence.
事实上，即使是高生产力的人，也经常出现这种情况，他们从来没有充分利用时间来体现存在感。
So what I'm suggesting is a paradigm shift in the way that I view my physicality at all, the way that I view my day-to-day, my being.
所以我建议的是我看待我的身体、我看待我的日常生活、我的存在的方式的范式转变。
When I'm listening to you, I'm not running after these words in my head, and I'm also in the physical experience of what is occurring right now, and I developed this through my practice.
当我听你讲话的时候，我并不是在脑子里追寻这些话，我也在对现在正在发生的事情进行身体体验，这是我通过练习发展起来的。
We need better education, and we need better tools.
我们需要更好的教育，我们需要更好的工具。
And this is the new limiting factor.
这是新的限制因素。
Even AI recognizes it more and more, and it will, I predict, become the crucial component, the body.
甚至人工智能也越来越认识到它，我预测它将成为关键的组成部分，即身体。
The sensory symbols that are popping out when a symbol comes to our mind, that impression, those impressions that are so important.
当一个符号进入我们的脑海时，感官符号就会跳出来，那个印象，那些非常重要的印象。
Without them, there is nothing.
没有他们，就什么都没有。
And we've tried to go down to the root of it.
我们试图追根溯源。
I've spent a lot of time reading about this and figuring it out.
我花了很多时间阅读并弄清楚这一点。
What is the raw currency of cognition, of that abstraction schema?
认知、抽象模式的原始货币是什么？
And I've heard many answers.
我听过很多答案。
There is the primal or primitive semantics, this point of view, like something that is under language, and there is this point of view from phenomenology, this area, or there is the invariance, something that does not change, no matter how you look at it.
有原始的或原始的语义，这个观点，就像语言下的东西一样，有现象学的这个观点，这个领域，或者有不变性，无论你怎么看它都不会改变的东西。
That's the most crucial basic element.
这是最关键的基本要素。
But the best answer that I found is this drawing a boundary, selecting, which means when I look at you, I select you from the environment.
但我发现的最好答案是画一个边界，选择，这意味着当我看着你时，我从环境中选择了你。
I create a boundary inside my simulation.
我在模拟中创建了一个边界。
This is the most, as George Spencer Brown talks about this in "Laws of Form," this is the act of differentiation.
这是最多的，正如乔治·斯宾塞·布朗在《形式法则》中谈到的那样，这就是分化的行为。
This creates the most basic thought matter.
这创造了最基本的思想物质。
It's a thing now.
现在已经是一件事了。
And the unselected state, which also represents the entropy second law of thermodynamics, the soup that wants to pull us back, is the other side.
而未选择的状态，也代表了热力学的熵第二定律，想要把我们拉回来的汤，是另一面。
So this selection and the unselected state, which are codependent, of course, they are the very root of things.
所以这个选择和未选择的状态，它们是相互依存的，当然，它们是事物的根源。
So when we play this game of paying attention and the quality of it, we are interacting underneath the problems with the system.
因此，当我们玩这个关注和质量的游戏时，我们正在与系统的问题进行交互。
We are going to the-- And I'm talking about this open presence, pre-language thing that must inform the language formation anyways.
我们要讨论的是——我正在谈论这种开放的存在、前语言的事物，无论如何它都必须影响语言的形成。
It doesn't come from anywhere, so there must be something underneath.
它不是从任何地方来的，所以下面一定有什么东西。
And I'm sure you can teach me a lot about that, a lot more than what I researched myself, but the experience of it myself is very important to try to find that gentle layer and to try to interact with it.
我相信你可以教我很多关于这方面的知识，比我自己研究的更多，但我自己的经验对于尝试找到那个温和的层并尝试与之互动非常重要。
This will transform the body schema, and we have to teach it to children when we come about, and some cultures maintain it to a larger degree.
这将改变身体模式，当我们出现时，我们必须将其教给孩子，并且某些文化在更大程度上维持它。
And of course, it depends on the language and on other habits.
当然，这取决于语言和其他习惯。
This is below exercise, and then I use exercise very efficiently when you have that, when the model is addressed.
这是下面的练习，然后当你有练习时，当模型被解决时，我会非常有效地使用练习。
I do this work with athletes.
我和运动员一起做这项工作。
I do this work with grandmas.
我和奶奶一起做这项工作。
I do this work with Alzheimer patients, with musicians.
我和阿尔茨海默病患者以及音乐家一起做这项工作。
This is very potent.
这是非常有效的。
So stop trying to fit me into something corrupted in that sense, I'm telling the world, in that physical sense of I got to fit into this fitness practice.
所以，不要再试图让我适应某种腐败的东西，我告诉全世界，从身体意义上来说，我必须适应这种健身练习。
I got to fit into this exercise idea.
我必须适应这个锻炼的想法。
Because when I'm looking deeper, I don't see a lot of promise there.
因为当我更深入地观察时，我看不到太多的希望。
Those are positive manipulations.
这些都是积极的操纵。
They can be, definitely.
他们绝对可以。
But we need to go further, and we're not because we stay with that 30 minutes a day idea.
但我们需要走得更远，但我们没有这样做，因为我们坚持每天 30 分钟的想法。
And this is everywhere.
这无处不在。
You don't need to become like me, a practitioner of movement all day in the official side.
你不需要像我一样，整天在官方那边做运动的实践者。
It becomes the unofficial practice, your way of being, your way of doing things.
它成为非正式的实践、你的存在方式、你的做事方式。
I turn everything into this, the way that I drink from the cup, the way that I sit right now, the way that I'm listening, and it's coming from the official side of my practice.
我把一切都变成这样，我用杯子喝水的方式，我现在坐的方式，我听的方式，它来自我练习的官方方面。
I had to learn it in a structured way, and then to pull it back into my life.
我必须以结构化的方式学习它，然后将它拉回到我的生活中。
Much more important than to learn to meditate.
比学习冥想更重要。
Much more potent, because it is meditation in the deep sense of the word.
更有效，因为它是深层意义上的冥想。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You mentioned Alzheimer's.
你提到了阿尔茨海默氏症。
There are more and more scientific findings all the time showing that loss of vision, subtle or severe, loss of hearing, subtle or severe, can either accelerate or maybe even cause some of the deprivation symptoms of Alzheimer's, memory deprivation, this kind of thing.
越来越多的科学研究结果表明，视力丧失，无论是轻微的还是严重的，听力丧失，无论是轻微的还是严重的，都可以加速甚至可能导致阿尔茨海默氏症、记忆丧失等一些剥夺症状。
And it makes good sense.
这很有道理。
It's unfortunate, but it makes good sense, meaning if there are fewer inputs to the system, the system is deprived, by definition, and then the system starts working with deprived inputs, and it degrades.
这是不幸的，但它是有道理的，这意味着如果系统的输入较少，根据定义，系统就会被剥夺，然后系统开始使用被剥夺的输入来工作，并且它会退化。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
And in Alzheimer's, they like to mention that the feedback is damaged.
在阿尔茨海默氏症中，他们喜欢提到反馈被破坏了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
But they threw the baby with the bathwater.
但他们把婴儿和洗澡水一起倒掉了。
Even when the feedback is damaged, it's not a monochromatic thing, black and white.
即使反馈被损坏，它也不是单色的，黑白的。
You got to continue to challenge the system When I tear a muscle, my rotator cuff, I rehab myself by going back into motion.
你必须继续挑战这个系统 当我撕裂肌肉、我的肩袖时，我会通过恢复运动来恢复自己。
I don't put a cast on.
我不打石膏。
I treat Alzheimer's in the same way.
我以同样的方式治疗阿尔茨海默病。
I practice, and this is incredibly powerful, like loading the skeleton for osteoporosis.
我练习，这非常强大，就像为骨质疏松症的骨骼加载一样。
Forget about the nutritional side of things.
忘记事物的营养方面。
Lift something heavy, for God's sake.
看在上帝的份上，举起重物。
Pound the ground in the right dosages and ways.
以正确的剂量和方式敲击地面。
It is a lot more potent.
它的作用要强大得多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
We have to change our way of looking at things here.
我们必须改变看待事物的方式。
This thing here is called practice.
这里的这个东西叫做练习。
This is a school.
这是一所学校。
Life is not for living.
生活不是为了生活。
Life is for practicing.
人生就是用来修行的。
It is a place, it's a school we came to.
这是一个地方，是我们来到的一所学校。
Maybe spiritually, you can take it there as well, but I'm talking even neurologically, that's who we are, that's what we are.
也许在精神上，你也可以把它带到那里，但我什至在神经学上说，这就是我们，这就是我们。
And viewing yourself in this way is very potent, and it will not take your life away.
以这种方式看待自己是非常有效的，它不会夺走你的生命。
You don't need more than 30 minutes a day.
每天不需要超过30分钟。
It will enrich the current life that you have, but you have to educate yourself, and you have to go deeper into these concepts in order to apply it correctly.
它将丰富你当前的生活，但你必须自我教育，你必须更深入地了解这些概念才能正确应用它。
That's my belief in regards to this, and I've seen it.
这就是我对此的信念，而且我已经看到了这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Beautifully put.
摆得很漂亮。
I could not agree more.
我完全同意。
We are in a curriculum of life, and our nervous system, and all the rest of us is being shaped by that, and we have agency about what we bring in.
我们处于生命课程之中，我们的神经系统以及我们所有其他人都受到它的影响，我们对我们带来的东西有自主权。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
I see it on you.
我在你身上看到了。
It's clear to me.
我很清楚。
It's very clear who's practicing and who's not, on some level, when you meet people.
当你遇到人时，在某种程度上，谁在练习、谁没有练习是非常清楚的。
If you're practicing yourself, if you're in this practice, if you're under this load, in this conscious interaction, choice, with suffering, with friction, with difficulties, but also with awe, with curiosity, with all those things in a directed way, not in a way that holds on to who I am.
如果你在练习自己，如果你在这种练习中，如果你处于这种负载之下，处于这种有意识的互动、选择中，带着痛苦、带着摩擦、带着困难，但也带着敬畏、带着好奇，以一种定向的方式对待所有这些事情，而不是以一种坚持我是谁的方式。
It doesn't matter who I am currently.
我现在是谁并不重要。
I'm not interested in that.
我对此不感兴趣。
I am not my friend, in that sense.
从这个意义上说，我不是我的朋友。
There is a place in me that I recognize, this is not my friend.
我体内有一个地方我认识到，这不是我的朋友。
But it doesn't turn into a beat-down, it doesn't turn into this.
但它不会变成一场殴打，它不会变成这样。
It's very important that the multi-stability is held.
保持多重稳定性非常重要。
And then I can become.
然后我就可以成为。
I practice myself into the next day.
我练习自己到第二天。
I practice myself into the next moment.
我练习自己进入下一刻。
And this is the crucial moment.
而这正是关键时刻。
So when I'm doing podcasts or whatever, I use it, I manipulate the situation for my practice and for the practice of others because I believe it's so important.
因此，当我做播客或其他任何事情时，我会使用它，我会操纵情况来进行我的练习和其他人的练习，因为我相信它非常重要。
Our life depends on it.
我们的生活取决于它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I could not agree more.
我完全同意。
I'm brought back to this notion of language, movement, and awareness.
我又回到了语言、动作和意识的概念。
And maybe just for sake of understanding, and this will be an incomplete analogy, but if people could imagine that there's levels of coarseness within each of those.
也许只是为了理解，这将是一个不完整的类比，但如果人们可以想象其中每一个都存在粗糙程度。
Neuroscientists would call it big spatial scale, like I can flap my elbows, or I can move my fingers more subtly.
神经科学家将其称为大空间尺度，就像我可以拍打我的肘部，或者我可以更微妙地移动我的手指。
So subtle motion versus big motion, right?
那么微妙的运动与大的运动，对吗？
In language, I can grunt.
在语言上，我可以咕哝。
I can meh.
我可以嗯。
I can whoo.
我可以呼喊。
Or I can articulate using more sophisticated language if I have knowledge and access to those.
或者，如果我有知识并且可以使用更复杂的语言，我可以用更复杂的语言来表达。
And you build that up through experience.
你可以通过经验来建立它。
You can go look things up and do that.
你可以去查一下然后这样做。
In the realm of awareness, it's similar, right?
在意识领域，这是相似的，对吧？
You can grab big pieces of the room all at once.
您可以一次抓取房间的大部分内容。
You there, the table, the cameras, producer off to my left, all of it, or I can home in on a small space, right?
你在那里，桌子，摄像机，制片人在我左边，所有这些，或者我可以在一个小空间里进行观察，对吗？
But there's also, and I'm obsessed with this, there's also the time domain.
但我对此很着迷，还有时域。
How we choose to segment our experience is something that I find so incredible.
我觉得我们如何选择细分我们的体验是非常不可思议的。
Can lie back, look at the clouds, and just watch this big cloud move through my visual field over the course of minutes, an hour.
可以躺下来，看着云彩，看着这片大云在几分钟、一个小时的时间内穿过我的视野。
Or I can watch for every little subtle ripple of a leaf if I choose.
或者，如果我愿意的话，我可以观察树叶的每一个细微的波纹。
And Dacher Keltner, who studies awe, he's at UC Berkeley, said, "Everyday awe experiences are very accessible if we allow ourselves to move from fine scale to large scale or large scale to fine scale and back again.
加州大学伯克利分校研究敬畏的达切尔·凯尔特纳 (Dacher Keltner) 表示：“如果我们允许自己从精细尺度过渡到大规模，或者从大规模过渡到精细尺度，然后再返回，那么每天都会有敬畏体验。
It's in the transition between the two, in space-
这是两者之间的过渡，在空间中——
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Beautiful
美丽
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
yeah, he nailed it.
是的，他做到了。
In space-
在太空中——
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
I'll steal it
我会偷它
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and in time.
并及时。
I was like, a lot of things happen on this podcast, and useful tools come up, and interesting conversations come up.
我当时想，这个播客上发生了很多事情，出现了有用的工具，出现了有趣的对话。
But in talking with Dacher, and now talking to you, it's like this is the experience of life that we're getting shaped on, and we have control.
但在与 Dacher 的交谈以及现在与你的交谈中，这就像我们正在塑造的生活体验，并且我们拥有控制权。
And so as a last point, my audience is saying, "Let your guest speak," but I just want to throw this out because when I think about going online, which is where people spend a significant amount of their conscious awareness now, their time, I ask myself, "Is this a low-resolution or a high-resolution event?"
最后一点，我的听众会说，“让你的客人发言”，但我只是想把它扔掉，因为当我想到上网时，人们现在在网上花费了大量的意识和时间，我问自己，“这是一个低分辨率还是高分辨率的事件？”
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And someone once asked me recently, "Do you have TikTok?" And I said, "I don't like TikTok." He said, "Why not?" And I said, "I don't like TikTok because I don't like that sound at the end." Why?
最近有人问我，“你有 TikTok 吗？”我说：“我不喜欢 TikTok。”他说：“为什么不呢？”我说，“我不喜欢 TikTok，因为我不喜欢最后的声音。”为什么？
It's low resolution.
就是分辨率低啊
It feels like a highly pixelated auditory sound.
感觉就像是高度像素化的听觉声音。
Whereas, not trying to be poetic here, but we have these red-winged blackbirds in California, and in the evening when they get ready to settle down, they make this incredible sound.
然而，这里并不是想诗意，但我们在加利福尼亚州有这些红翅黑鸟，晚上当它们准备安顿下来时，它们会发出令人难以置信的声音。
It's very brief, but it's rich, and it's so beautiful.
它很简短，但是很丰富，而且很美丽。
Anyone who ever has the chance to hear it, it's spectacular.
任何有机会听到它的人，都会感到非常壮观。
Then I realize all the information on TikTok is low resolution It's kind of for idiots, and if you only look at that, you'll become an idiot.
然后我意识到 TikTok 上的所有信息都是低分辨率的，这有点适合白痴，如果你只看这些，你就会变成白痴。
And I realize I'm probably consuming some other sensory input that is disproportionate to what I should be, and it's going to make me an idiot.
我意识到我可能正在消耗一些与我应有的不成比例的其他感官输入，这将使我成为一个白痴。
So it doesn't mean one has to spend time in the deep philosophy of the most intricate philosophers.
因此，这并不意味着人们必须花时间研究最复杂的哲学家的深刻哲学。
I listen to punk rock music.
我听朋克摇滚音乐。
I like it because it's raw.
我喜欢它，因为它是生的。
I like three-chord Ramones songs, but I also love classical music.
我喜欢雷蒙斯的三和弦歌曲，但我也喜欢古典音乐。
I think it's important to step through from coarse to fine, and I feel like what you've been talking about for years in terms of movement has something perhaps to do with this.
我认为从粗到细的逐步过渡很重要，而且我觉得你多年来一直在谈论的运动方面可能与此有关。
Forgive me for going long, but-
请原谅我说得太长了，但是——
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
No, no
不，不
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I'm happy-
我很高兴-
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
This is beautiful
这很漂亮
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to see you again, and this is kind of what we do.
再次见到你，这就是我们所做的。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Yeah.
是的。
This is beautiful.
这很漂亮。
I take a lot from it, and I like this, the transition importance.
我从中受益匪浅，而且我喜欢这种转变的重要性。
Something makes me think that we talked about these schemas, these models, but another way to look at it is a stomach, digestive systems.
有些东西让我觉得我们谈论了这些模式、这些模型，但另一种看待它的方式是胃、消化系统。
Why?
为什么？
In the sense that they require nutriments.
从某种意义上说，他们需要营养。
You've got to feed them.
你必须喂它们。
And then the quality of those nutriments, the gross, the fine, the micronutrients, the macronutrients.
然后是这些营养素的质量，粗量、精细、微量营养素、大量营养素。
Like for example, emotionally, I don't feel well, let's say.
比如说，在情感上，我感觉不舒服。
What do I tell people?
我要告诉人们什么？
What are you feeding yourself?
你自己吃什么？
What is your emotional food?
你的情感食粮是什么？
Emotional foods that are important, that I bring into the practice of my students, of myself.
情感食物很重要，我将其带入我的学生和我自己的实践中。
One, discomfort.
一、不适。
We've mentioned it.
我们已经提到过。
It's important.
这很重要。
It's clear why.
原因很清楚。
Emotional contradiction, two.
情感矛盾，二。
I love you, and I hate you.
我爱你，又恨你。
For example, when you work with boxing, when you let people have this physical, and you can point at it.
比如说，当你打拳击的时候，当你让人家有这个体能的时候，你可以指着它。
"Look, up, up.
“看，向上，向上。
Watch what happen now." I love you, and I hate you, and I feel it.
看看现在会发生什么。”我爱你，我恨你，我能感觉到。
The multistability.
多稳定性。
Another one is the aesthetic intensity that we talked about, bringing moments of awe, of curiosity, but also of melancholy, or many other intensities that are important.
另一个是我们谈到的审美强度，带来敬畏、好奇的时刻，但也带来忧郁或许多其他重要的强度。
We've removed this from our lives, from our movies, from our books, definitely online, as you pointed.
正如您所指出的，我们已经将其从我们的生活、我们的电影、我们的书籍中删除，尤其是在网上。
We took it away.
我们把它拿走了。
So of course, we're not feeding ourselves those things.
所以当然，我们不会给自己喂这些东西。
Restraint.
克制。
Stimulating and requiring restraint.
刺激又需要克制。
Very important quality.
非常重要的品质。
All those are practices for me.
这些都是对我来说的练习。
Those are nutriments that I want to feed my emotional state, the same thing I have for my intellectual faculty schema, the conceptual, the abstraction.
这些是我想要滋养我的情感状态的营养品，就像我为我的智力图式、概念和抽象所拥有的一样。
How do I become smarter?
我怎样才能变得更聪明？
What is thought?
什么是思想？
Is thought just these knee-jerk reactions, these levers, this associative quality?
思想只是这些下意识的反应、这些杠杆、这种联想性质吗？
Is this thought?
这是一个想法吗？
I refuse to accept it.
我拒绝接受。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's not thought.
那不是想的。
So you're lucky.
所以你很幸运。
You're not lucky.
你不幸运。
You are right to refuse it.
你拒绝它是对的。
We could talk about thoughts and what they are.
我们可以谈论想法以及它们是什么。
I actually have a segment in my book, I'm not trying to advertise my book, that's all about how to think about thinking so that you can literally control your thinking.
实际上我的书中有一个片段，我并不是想为我的书做广告，这都是关于如何思考思考，以便你可以真正控制你的思考。
Use thinking as a tool, not just have it be this, wherever you go, some dynamic attractor states, the neuroscientists say you just kind of fall.
使用思维作为一种工具，而不仅仅是这样，无论你走到哪里，在一些动态吸引子状态下，神经科学家说你就会坠落。
Like a clang association in a psychotic person-
就像精神病人的铿锵联想一样——
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is just, they drop into a groove of thought that is disjointed, makes no sense to the rest of us.
只是，他们陷入了一种脱节的思维模式，对我们其他人来说毫无意义。
Many people, including myself sometimes, we live in those modes of thought that are equally psychotic.
许多人，有时包括我自己，都生活在同样精神病的思维模式中。
We just don't express it.
我们只是不表达而已。
But they're psychotic because we're taking something as valuable as a beautiful vehicle, and we're just kind of using it to prop something up at the side of the house.
但他们很疯狂，因为我们拿走了像一辆漂亮的车辆一样有价值的东西，而我们只是用它来支撑房子旁边的东西。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My colleague Karl Deisseroth, one of the best neuroscientists alive, maybe ever, when he told me that every night after he put his five kids to sleep he would go and sit and force himself to think in complete sentences as a practice.
我的同事卡尔·戴瑟罗斯（Karl Deisseroth）是当今最优秀的神经科学家之一，也许是有史以来最优秀的神经科学家之一，他告诉我，每天晚上，在他让五个孩子入睡后，他都会坐下来，强迫自己思考完整的句子，以此作为一种练习。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
I remember you told me before.
我记得你之前告诉过我。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Man, I was-
伙计，我当时——
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Beautiful
美丽
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I was humbled, and I thought- ...
我很谦虚，我想——...
"Whoa, that is hard."
“哇，这很难。”
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
That is a smart person.
那是一个聪明人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He's a very smart person.
他是一个非常聪明的人。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
That's an intelligent person.
那是一个聪明人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He's a very intelligent person.
他是一个非常聪明的人。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
That sounds like it.
听起来是这样。
It comes from that place of knowing.
它来自那个知道的地方。
I almost never truly think.
我几乎从来没有真正思考过。
It's rare.
这是很少见的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He taught himself to think.
他教会自己思考。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
But without realizing it, without realizing that you're just playing a different game in that sense, that it's hard to develop it.
但没有意识到，没有意识到你只是在玩一个不同的游戏，从这个意义上说，开发它是很困难的。
And again, what are the practices that we engage with?
再说一遍，我们采取了哪些实践？
We need those things, nutriments.
我们需要那些东西，营养品。
So it's stomachs.
所以是胃。
The emotional faculty is a stomach.
情绪功能是胃。
It's digestion, and it asks you, "Feed me."
它是消化，它会问你：“喂我。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
And you've got to take care of it.
你必须照顾好它。
There is metabolism involved.
涉及新陈代谢。
There is a protection layer.
有保护层。
There is immunity to it.
对它有免疫力。
There is the Markov boundary around it, the membrane.
它周围有马尔可夫边界，即膜。
There is a model to it.
它有一个模型。
It simulates things out.
它模拟事物。
So it's also a very important way to look at it.
所以这也是一个非常重要的看待它的方式。
And of course, the body.
当然还有身体。
Movement nutriments.
运动营养品。
What is the quality of that?
那是什么品质？
If you look at those gym practices, those weightlifting, they're all very, very low quality in terms of movement.
如果你看看那些健身房的练习，那些举重，它们的运动质量都非常非常低。
Every dancer will tell you that.
每个舞者都会告诉你这一点。
Every athlete of a high level will tell you that.
每个高水平的运动员都会告诉你这一点。
Where did we move?
我们搬到哪里了？
To a ridiculous situation where our athletes are learning and are inspired by the fitness people instead of the fitness people be learning and be inspired by the athletes, the movement people.
一个荒谬的情况是，我们的运动员正在学习并受到健身人士的启发，而不是健身人士正在学习并受到运动员、运动人士的启发。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Tell me more, because I certainly love to watch track and field during the Olympics, and it's amazing to see these athletes move and their different shapes and their different personalities.
告诉我更多，因为我当然喜欢在奥运会期间观看田径比赛，看到这些运动员的动作以及他们不同的体形和不同的性格真是令人惊奇。
Like the sprinters, I still marvel at.
和短跑运动员一样，我至今仍惊叹不已。
These races boil down to sometimes hundredths of a second, and they will wear flashy jewelry without question, slows them down.
这些比赛有时需要百分之一秒，毫无疑问，他们会佩戴华丽的珠宝，减慢速度。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is the least aerodynamic thing you could possibly do.
这是你能做的最不符合空气动力学的事情。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
There are more important things than that.
还有比这更重要的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they're willing to give up the potential time advantage to show their bravado.
他们愿意放弃潜在的时间优势来展示他们的虚张声势。
Now, the distance runners, where typically it doesn't get down to hundredths of a second, it can.
现在，对于长跑运动员来说，通常不会达到百分之一秒，但可以。
Typically, the margins between first, second, and third place are wider.
通常，第一名、第二名和第三名之间的差距更大。
They're not wearing any jewelry, and their personalities are much more subdued.
他们没有佩戴任何珠宝，而且性格也更加低调。
Fascinating.
迷人。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're telling me that the athletes are paying attention to the fitness people?
你是说运动员开始关注健身人士了？
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Yeah, of course.
是的，当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That seems crazy.
这看起来很疯狂。
Why?
为什么？
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Don't you see it?
你没看到吗？
Boxers training like fitness people.
拳击手像健身者一样训练。
They're fitness athletes.
他们是健身运动员。
They're not boxers these days.
如今他们不再是拳击手了。
Why?
为什么？
Social media.
社交媒体。
Why?
为什么？
What is there, approachable, calls the attention.
那里的东西是平易近人的，引起人们的注意。
I don't know why you brought me in today, but it might be one of the last times, if not the last time, as it becomes less and less what the attention calls for.
我不知道你今天为什么带我来，但这可能是最后一次，如果不是最后一次，因为它变得越来越不那么受关注。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't know.
我不知道。
I think I believe that the system that is human curiosity, which drives a lot of social media, not all of it, I do think that when you have a lot of low-resolution stuff, the signal to noise becomes people...
我认为我相信这个系统是人类的好奇心，它驱动了很多社交媒体，而不是全部，我确实认为当你有很多低分辨率的东西时，信噪比就变成了人们......
Our senses, I almost said this earlier, but our sensory apparatus, whether or not it's our skin or our smell or our vision or our hearing, as you know, has levels of granularity.
我们的感官，我刚才几乎已经说过了，但是我们的感觉器官，无论是我们的皮肤、气味、视觉还是听觉，如你所知，都有不同程度的粒度。
The receptive fields, as we call them, go from very fine to very coarse.
我们所说的感受野，从非常精细到非常粗糙。
We love the feeling of a hug with somebody we love.
我们喜欢和我们所爱的人拥抱的感觉。
We also love the feeling of a light caress or just a hand on ours.
我们也喜欢轻轻爱抚或一只手放在我们身上的感觉。
These things matter, and they're part of our experience, and even without being aware of that desire for it, it's a drive.
这些事情很重要，它们是我们经验的一部分，即使没有意识到对它的渴望，它也是一种动力。
I do think people like to learn, and they like to think.
我确实认为人们喜欢学习，也喜欢思考。
Some people perhaps not.
有些人也许不会。
They're lazy.
他们很懒。
But I believe that the sorts of things that you talk about and do, the real effort, like the movie that you showed earlier of you, this incredible movie, like the amount of care that went into that right now, relatively brief, it might be longer going forward, the amount of care is what makes that high signal to noise.
但我相信你所谈论和所做的事情，真正的努力，就像你之前放映的电影，这部令人难以置信的电影，就像现在投入的关怀程度一样，相对短暂，未来可能会更长，关怀程度就是造成高信噪比的原因。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Thank you for that calming and positive words.
谢谢你的平静和积极的话语。
They are important, and they touch my heart as well.
它们很重要，也触动了我的心。
And I know personally with you, I feel this.
我和你个人都知道，我也有这样的感觉。
I'm talking about this exposure.
我说的是这次曝光。
This is great exposure.
这是很好的曝光。
It's not possible anymore to talk about certain things and certain sizes.
不再可能谈论某些事物和某些尺寸。
I know you are a person who is challenged by that tremendously because you went huge, and at the same time, your original search is not going to serve that.
我知道你是一个受到巨大挑战的人，因为你做得很大，但与此同时，你最初的搜索并不能满足你的需求。
This is not the motive.
这不是动机。
This is not the deep thing that drives you.
这并不是驱动你的深层因素。
So I'll always be available and free to come for a wonderful conversation with you, but I lament sometimes the situation with the masses and the public and where a lot of attention, that the big viral things are going to, in the sense that it's sad.
因此，我将随时可以自由地与你们进行精彩的对话，但有时我会哀叹群众和公众的情况，以及大量关注，病毒式传播的事情将会发生，从某种意义上说，这是令人悲伤的。
It's very, very pricey.
这是非常非常昂贵的。
It's very expensive.
它非常昂贵。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Despite your and my attempts to enriching the conversations out there and the younger generation whose brains were more plastic in this phase of low-resolution overload, but I trust that the hunger's there, and they'll rescue themselves.
尽管你和我试图丰富那里的对话，并且年轻一代的大脑在这个低分辨率超负荷的阶段更具可塑性，但我相信饥饿就在那里，他们会拯救自己。
They're going to realize it.
他们将会意识到这一点。
They're starting to realize it.
他们开始意识到这一点。
Maybe this isn't the best analogy, but pornography is quite available online, and I think there's still a hunger for movies and about real romance and relationships.
也许这不是最好的类比，但色情内容在网上随处可见，而且我认为人们仍然渴望电影以及真正的浪漫和人际关系。
I think interesting romances and relationships-
我认为有趣的浪漫和人际关系-
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of their own, and to know that that still exists in the world.
他们自己的，并知道这仍然存在于世界上。
I think there's a crudeness to things, but I hear you.
我认为事情有些粗鲁，但我听到了。
And there's a new generation coming up who hopefully are-
新一代正在崛起，他们希望是——
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Listening
听力
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
thinking like, "Hey," and have their own desire for multiple layers of granularity.
就像“嘿”一样思考，并且对多层粒度有自己的渴望。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Good.
很好。
Yeah.
是的。
We just need to invest in that.
我们只需要对此进行投资。
I'm trying my best to invest in that, but I've moved away from doing certain things and exposing certain things because I believe there is no way there, no path there into the real...
我正在尽最大努力对此进行投资，但我已经不再做某些事情和揭露某些事情，因为我相信没有办法，没有通往真正的道路......
I want to help.
我想帮忙。
I want to really help people, myself, but it takes a certain process to get to that critical moment of being able to actually help and transform.
我想真正帮助人们，包括我自己，但需要一定的过程才能到达能够真正提供帮助和转变的关键时刻。
It's not as easy as just offering the help, putting it out there.
这并不像仅仅提供帮助、将其发布那么容易。
Not as it was.
不一样了。
It used to be, but the game is different.
以前是这样，但游戏不一样了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We had a guest on, he's a psychiatrist, Dr. K, Indian guy.
我们有一位嘉宾，他是一位精神科医生，Dr. K，印度人。
We were talking about meditation, and he described a meditation that is super interesting that I'm sure you've done many times, but for me was novel.
我们正在谈论冥想，他描述了一种非常有趣的冥想，我相信你已经做过很多次了，但对我来说很新颖。
He said Try meditating for just five minutes, but instead of paying attention to the inhale and the exhale, pay attention to the pause in between the two.
他说尝试冥想五分钟，但不要注意吸气和呼气，而要注意两者之间的停顿。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Kumbhaka.
闭巴卡。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As a way to start to notice transition points.
作为开始注意到转变点的一种方式。
And it's a way of kind of dialing in the spotlight of attention, boom, boom, and you can kind of release in between, as opposed to just trying to constantly focus on the breath.
这是一种集中注意力的方式，繁荣，繁荣，你可以在两者之间释放，而不是仅仅试图不断地专注于呼吸。
What are your thoughts on these kinds of noticing transitions between setting down the phone, getting up, getting on the phone, maybe even between swipes if people have to do it that way?
您对放下电话、起身、打电话之间的这种注意过渡有何看法，如果人们必须这样做的话，甚至可能是滑动之间的过渡？
But ideally, this would be done in terms of a movement practice as well, an emotional practice.
但理想情况下，这也可以通过运动练习、情感练习来完成。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Before I even talk about it, you know what is the discovery of that practice?
在我谈论它之前，你知道这种做法的发现是什么吗？
There is no point where the pendulum changes direction.
钟摆没有改变方向的点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
No transitional moment where this reaches this zero point, and that's what you discover.
没有达到零点的过渡时刻，这就是你所发现的。
As you're following this more and more, and more and more, it opens up.
当你越来越多地关注这一点时，它就会开放。
It opens up, and this pulls you in, and that's why it's such a powerful practice.
它打开了，这会吸引你，这就是为什么它是一个如此强大的练习。
And this is available in many places.
这在很多地方都可以实现。
It's the multistability again.
又是多重稳定性。
For example, right now, I really have to pee.
比如说，现在我真的很想尿尿。
And inside this sensation, which funny enough, I didn't know, but I kind of loved to practice as a child.
在这种感觉中，这很有趣，我不知道，但我小时候喜欢练习。
I didn't realize that it's unique, and I believe it's also related to my willpower in a way.
我没有意识到它是独一无二的，我相信这在某种程度上也与我的意志力有关。
"No, I don't need to go to the toilet yet." I would hold, and I would recognize inside of it a certain pleasure, maybe a pleasure of the release that will come.
“不用了，我还不需要去厕所。”我会握住它，我会在其中认识到某种快乐，也许是即将到来的释放的快乐。
It's similar to the orgasm.
这与性高潮相似。
It has something similar to this burning.
它有类似于这种燃烧的东西。
The first time you have an orgasm, you're not sure it's painful, it's pleasurable.
第一次高潮时，你不确定它是否痛苦，而是愉悦。
You're still in that multistability.
你仍然处于多重稳定性中。
So, in that sense, the kumbhaka is very similar.
所以，从这个意义上说，闭气法非常相似。
So it's a type of practice, not the only type.
所以这是一种练习，而不是唯一的类型。
You can do it with a lot of things.
你可以用很多东西来做。
Goosebumps, feeling cold.
浑身起鸡皮疙瘩，感觉冷。
Inside the sensation of coldness, there is a heat-
冰凉的感觉里，却有一股热气——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
...
...
underneath.
下面。
That's why the body creates this thing.
这就是身体创造这个东西的原因。
And I've seen it.
我已经看到了。
I remember a time I was doing a standing meditation in Yellingup, in Australia, standing inside shallow water, and the sun was coming down.
我记得有一次，我在澳大利亚耶林加普（Yellingup）进行站立冥想，站在浅水中，太阳正在落山。
It became very cold.
天气变得很冷。
And I remember I was there for an hour standing, and just this realization.
我记得我在那里站了一个小时，才意识到这一点。
The beginning is like, "Oh, shit.
开头就像，“哦，该死。
It's cold." And then I start, "No, I'm going to stay." And by staying, and by investigating closer and closer, I discover this heat inside.
天气很冷。”然后我开始说：“不，我要留下来。”通过留下来，通过越来越仔细的调查，我发现了内心的热量。
And when I grab a glimpse of it, the cold was gone.
当我瞥见它时，寒冷就消失了。
And now I locked, the old woman and the young woman, the multistability, the visual thing, I locked into the other side.
现在我锁定了老妇人和年轻女子，多重稳定性，视觉事物，我锁定了另一边。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
And I was able to see it.
我能够看到它。
And then I was able to bring back the cold and to see both.
然后我就能恢复寒冷并看到两者。
This is a practice that I engage with, with rhythms, polyrhythms, with movements, with reading certain conceptual materials that are requiring this, with meditation.
这是我参与的一种练习，通过节奏、多节奏、动作、阅读某些需要这样做的概念材料和冥想。
And it requires keen observation, and it's very, very powerful practice.
它需要敏锐的观察力，而且是非常非常强大的练习。
Even a pushup, I practice it doing pushups.
即使是俯卧撑，我也会练习俯卧撑。
You can think of a pushup.
你可以想到俯卧撑。
You can experience it as a push, but you can also experience it as a pull, which is, by the way, closer to reality.
你可以将其体验为推动，但也可以将其体验为拉动，顺便说一句，这更接近现实。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One thing is for certain, you're describing beautifully the antagonistic nature of every neural circuit that we are aware of.
有一点是肯定的，你完美地描述了我们所知道的每一个神经回路的对抗性质。
Flexor extensor being the most obvious, right?
屈伸肌是最明显的，对吧？
When we flex our bicep or whatever, hamstring, the opposite muscle, the extensor relaxes, and vice versa.
当我们弯曲二头肌或其他肌肉、腿筋、相反的肌肉时，伸肌就会放松，反之亦然。
But they're intricately related in their function.
但它们的功能错综复杂。
Like, it's not they're totally independent, right?
就像，他们并不是完全独立的，对吧？
The ability to see dark edges is contingent on your ability to see light edges.
看到暗边缘的能力取决于您看到亮边缘的能力。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Super imposition.
超级强加。
Everything is superimposed.
一切都是叠加的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Everything's push-pull.
一切都是推拉式的。
This ventromedial hypothalamus, right?
这个下丘脑腹内侧，对吧？
Dayu Lin's work with David Anderson showed if you-- People for years had stimulated this brain area, and in cats and rats, and monkeys and bats, and they would see that sometimes they would get rage, and sometimes they would get mounting in sexual behavior, even of inanimate objects.
林大宇和大卫·安德森的研究表明，如果人们多年来一直刺激猫和老鼠、猴子和蝙蝠的这个大脑区域，他们会发现有时他们会变得愤怒，有时他们会在性行为中勃起，甚至是对无生命物体的性行为。
Dayu Lin comes in, develops genetic tools to separate out the salt and pepper of these different neurons and shows that these are two antagonistic sets of neurons in the same structure that drive either mating or attack.
大宇林进来，开发了遗传工具来分离这些不同神经元的盐和胡椒，并表明这些是同一结构中驱动交配或攻击的两组对立神经元。
And then she gets the opportunity to put them into competition with one another.
然后她就有机会让他们相互竞争。
And what she discovers and other people discover by monitoring the activity of these neurons is when you drive the mating activity, the potential for firing in these other neurons is suppressed, but then it comes back higher.
她和其他人通过监测这些神经元的活动发现，当你驱动交配活动时，这些其他神经元的放电潜力受到抑制，但随后又会恢复得更高。
The firing of these neurons that drive aggression are suppressed, but then after some period of time, mating, it subsides, then the aggression comes back.
这些驱动攻击性的神经元的放电受到抑制，但经过一段时间的交配后，它会消退，然后攻击性又回来了。
And we don't like-- These are uncomfortable notions for people to think about.
我们不喜欢——这些想法让人们感到不舒服。
That's just one example, but also eating versus the desire to not eat.
这只是一个例子，也是吃与不吃的欲望之间的对比。
Everything's a push-pull in the circuitry of the brain, even in cognition.
大脑回路中的一切都是推拉的，即使在认知中也是如此。
So I totally love, very crude way to put it, but I totally love the idea that exploring what feels like an extreme sensory experience is actually an exploration of the opposite side of the seesaw It's awesome that you could touch into that
所以我非常喜欢，非常粗鲁的说法，但我非常喜欢这样的想法：探索一种极端的感官体验实际上是对跷跷板另一面的探索，你能接触到它真是太棒了
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
And you can directly connect to it by taking a multi-stable entity and observing it.
您可以通过获取多稳定实体并观察它来直接连接到它。
Any entity is multi-stable entity, but there are ones that are clearly that, like listening to a polyrhythm, to two rhythms at the same time, and spending time watching it from one perspective and then from another perspective, and switching back and forth.
任何实体都是多稳定的实体，但有些实体显然是这样的，就像听多节奏一样，同时听两种节奏，花时间从一个角度观看，然后从另一个角度观看，来回切换。
That switching again, it's extremely powerful.
再次切换，威力无比。
This is stuff I use with fighters, because if you can't hear the various rhythms, you're not the DJ, and the DJ controls the party.
这是我对战士使用的东西，因为如果你听不到各种节奏，你就不是 DJ，而 DJ 控制着派对。
You're going to get knocked out.
你会被淘汰的。
But if you can view all these complex rhythms that are there present, in the footwork and in the breath, and in the body, and in the blinking of the eyes, and if you're sensitive to it, you can be a lot more aligned with that and manipulate it for your needs.
但是，如果你能看到所有这些存在的复杂节奏，在步法、呼吸、身体和眨眼中，如果你对它敏感，你就可以更加一致并根据你的需要操纵它。
So this is extremely powerful practice.
所以这是一个非常强大的练习。
Certain texts, they don't allow you to grab a hold.
某些文本不允许你抓住。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
My favorite is Jorge Luis Borges.
我最喜欢的是豪尔赫·路易斯·博尔赫斯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The Argentine.
阿根廷人。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My father would be very happy-
我父亲会很高兴的——
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that you said that.
你这么说的。
Yeah.
是的。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
The absolute master.
绝对的大师。
The man who was the big priest of the cult of books, the ultimate, the blind librarian.
这个人是书籍崇拜的大祭司，终极的盲人图书管理员。
What can be more than that?
还有什么比这更重要的呢？
The man who read everything when it was still possible to read everything, who knew everything.
这个人在还可以阅读一切的时候就阅读了一切，知道了一切。
And what did he leave us?
而他给我们留下了什么？
These incredible practices.
这些令人难以置信的做法。
Short stories, but they are challenging, and they changed my body when I read them.
故事虽短，但很有挑战性，当我读它们时，它们改变了我的身体。
They changed me again and again, and they transform you, and they're multi-stable, and they're examining things in a way that makes you transform.
他们一次又一次地改变了我，他们也改变了你，他们是多重稳定的，他们正在以一种让你改变的方式审视事物。
I used to fill my hot tub with extremely hot water, unbearable, and read the short story while being in there.
我曾经在热水浴缸里装满了非常热的水，难以忍受，并在里面读短篇故事。
In the worst times of my life, I used this, and the physical discomfort, and it's short stories.
在我生命中最糟糕的时候，我用过这个，还有身体的不适，这是短篇小说。
You can do it.
你可以做到的。
It's a certain length of time.
这是一定的时间长度。
Somehow together, I like to relax into that combination, and it was awe.
不知怎的，在一起时，我喜欢放松地融入这种组合，这是令人敬畏的。
I always came out different from that experiences.
我总是从那些经历中得到不同的结果。
I also used it just normally.
我也只是正常使用而已。
I use it with students in events.
我在活动中与学生一起使用它。
And there are other authors, but it's just an example.
还有其他作者，但这只是一个例子。
To feel real remorse in order to change my ways.
为了改变我的方式而感到真正的悔恨。
To truly, not to beat myself up, not to make this-
真正地，不是为了打败自己，不是为了——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
...
...
yeah, this Jewish thing that the Catholic perfected.
是的，天主教完善了这个犹太教的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Of flagellate yourself.
鞭打自己。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Not this, but true remorse.
不是这个，而是真正的悔恨。
It's like, "Hmm, that was bad.
就像是，“嗯，那很糟糕。
Bad on me.
对我不好。
Shouldn't have done that.
不应该这样做。
That's not who I want to be." And from that place, hitting this rock bottom and immediately climbing up from that so it doesn't stay within that.
那不是我想成为的人。”从那个地方开始，到达这个谷底并立即从那里爬上去，这样它就不会停留在那里。
So we don't-- I don't think people tell me thank you in the end of teachings events, but how often do I feel real gratitude?
所以我们不——我认为人们不会在教学活动结束时告诉我谢谢你，但我多久能感受到真正的感激之情？
We don't interact.
我们不互动。
They don't sense it.
他们感觉不到。
No one can blame them, but they've desensitized themselves from this whole granularity of emotions, and so we need to bring it back.
没有人可以责怪他们，但他们已经对这种情绪的整个粒度麻木了，所以我们需要把它带回来。
We need to train it back, like losing your sense of smell because of COVID or something.
我们需要训练它回来，就像因为新冠病毒或其他原因失去嗅觉一样。
People ask me, "What shall I do?" I say, "Train it back." And that's-- I don't know the neurology of it, but it's clear to me it's like, what's the answer to any question?
人们问我：“我该怎么办？”我说：“训练回来。”那就是——我不知道它的神经病学，但我很清楚，任何问题的答案是什么？
Practice.
实践。
So I just send them to practice, and it works.
所以我只是送他们去练习，而且效果很好。
Gradual, progressive, pleasantly visual, pleasing enough, et cetera.
渐进的、渐进的、视觉上令人愉悦的、足够令人愉悦的，等等。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Function.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 Function。
Function provides over 160 advanced lab tests to give you a clear snapshot of your bodily health.
功能提供超过 160 项高级实验室测试，让您清晰了解自己的身体健康状况。
This snapshot gives you insights into your heart health, your hormone health, autoimmune function, nutrient levels, and much more.
通过此快照，您可以深入了解心脏健康状况、激素健康状况、自身免疫功能、营养水平等。
They've also recently added access to advanced MRI and CT scans.
他们最近还增加了先进的 MRI 和 CT 扫描的访问权限。
Function not only provides testing of over 160 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, it also analyzes these results and provides recommendations for improving your health from top doctors.
Function 不仅提供对您身心健康至关重要的 160 多种生物标记物的测试，还分析这些结果并提供顶级医生改善您健康的建议。
For example, in a recent test with Function, I learned that some of my blood lipids were slightly out of range.
例如，在最近的一次 Function 测试中，我发现我的一些血脂稍微超出了范围。
As a result, I decided to start supplementing with nattokinase, which can naturally help reduce LDL cholesterol, and it did.
因此，我决定开始补充纳豆激酶，它自然可以帮助降低低密度脂蛋白胆固醇，而且确实如此。
In a follow-up test, I could confirm that this strategy worked.
在后续测试中，我可以确认这个策略是有效的。
My blood lipids are now back exactly where I want them.
我的血脂现在完全回到了我想要的水平。
Comprehensive lab testing of the sort that Function offers is just so important for health.
Function 提供的全面实验室测试对于健康非常重要。
How else are you going to know what's going on under the hood?
否则你怎么知道幕后发生了什么？
And while I've been doing blood work for years, it used to be time-consuming, complicated, and expensive.
虽然我从事血液检查已有多年，但它过去非常耗时、复杂且昂贵。
In fact, I used to spend thousands of dollars per year trying to get this kind of data, and the data, frankly, were not all that good.
事实上，我曾经每年花费数千美元试图获得此类数据，但坦率地说，这些数据并不那么好。
But now with Function, it's extremely easy and affordable.
但现在有了 Function，它变得非常简单且经济实惠。
A Function membership is only a dollar a day, $365 a year, and if you think about the information it provides and the health challenges it helps you avoid, and the proactive things that it can do for you to enhance your health, I truly look at it as a savings.
Function 会员资格每天只需 1 美元，每年 365 美元，如果您考虑一下它提供的信息、它可以帮助您避免的健康挑战，以及它可以为您增强健康所做的积极主动的事情，我确实将其视为一种节省。
To learn more, visit functionhealth.com/huberman and use the code Huberman for a $50 credit towards your membership.
要了解更多信息，请访问 functionhealth.com/huberman 并使用代码 Huberman 获得 50 美元的会员积分。
Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman.
同样，这是 functionhealth.com/huberman。
The ability to really acknowledge real remorse, guilt, regret, that's hard.
能够真正承认真正的悔恨、内疚、遗憾，这很难。
I totally agree.
我完全同意。
There's enormous power in it And yet one can't do it in order to extract the power, like that keeps you away from the feeling.
它蕴含着巨大的力量，但你却无法提取这种力量，那样会让你远离这种感觉。
I had to spend, as we were talking about earlier, some time in my life just thinking about the times I genuinely failed, that I was a coward, that I made the wrong choice.
正如我们之前谈到的，我不得不花一些时间来思考我真正失败的时候，我是一个胆小鬼，我做出了错误的选择。
I don't feel a lot of power from saying it.
我感觉这句话没有多大力量。
It just is what it is.
它就是这样。
And that's where the benefit is, just sitting in there, and then somehow one is able to move on from it.
这就是好处所在，只要坐在那里，然后就能以某种方式摆脱它。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
I'm with you.
我和你在一起。
I don't know many people who talk about it.
我不知道有多少人谈论它。
I'm the same.
我也一样。
I'm saying to people, "I'm a coward." That's who I am.
我对人们说：“我是个胆小鬼。”这就是我。
That's who I was many times in my life.
我一生中多次就是这样的人。
I've made the wrong choices.
我做出了错误的选择。
Again, I'm not beating myself up over it.
再说一遍，我并没有为此自责。
I've made my peace with it.
我已经接受了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
But I've had to glimpse it to change something.
但我必须瞥见它才能改变一些事情。
And maybe it won't be enough, maybe I'll need this process again, but so remorse is crucial, have to be part of the practice, practice of remorse, remorse of conscience.
也许这还不够，也许我会再次需要这个过程，但是悔恨是至关重要的，必须成为实践的一部分，悔恨的实践，良心的悔恨。
That is also not available, not there.
那也是不可用的，不存在。
We can cultivate a process of it.
我们可以培养它的一个过程。
We can devote time to it.
我们可以投入时间。
We can design practices for it.
我们可以为它设计实践。
Grieving is also another one, right?
悲伤也是另一种，对吗？
It's so difficult.
太难了。
One time somebody told me, a meditation teacher, he told me, "I grieved my father's death for 20 minutes, and that's it.
有一次，有人告诉我，一位冥想老师，他告诉我，“我为父亲的去世而悲伤了 20 分钟，仅此而已。
I was done." But those 20 minutes, people push away for a lifetime.
我已经完成了。”但那20分钟，人们却推开了一生。
And even if it's not exactly the truth, I like to use that story still.
即使这不完全是事实，我仍然喜欢使用这个故事。
So to interact with it and to be capable and to invite these things into our life also takes practice.
因此，与它互动、有能力并邀请这些东西进入我们的生活也需要练习。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Lately, I've been, I wouldn't say forcing myself, I would say nudging myself into allowing some grief over the passage of time, not regrets about certain decisions.
最近，我不会说强迫自己，我会说推动自己在时间的流逝中允许一些悲伤，而不是对某些决定感到后悔。
That's a separate line of exploration, but just acknowledging, I think with all this stuff about health and longevity, and I certainly feel vigorous, I feel great, but time has passed.
这是一条单独的探索线，但只是承认，我认为所有这些关于健康和长寿的东西，我当然感觉精力充沛，我感觉很棒，但时间已经过去了。
And that doesn't mean thinking about the past, just really acknowledging that.
这并不意味着思考过去，只是真正承认这一点。
And the reason I got to it is I felt like I was suppressing something, like there was some lie in my head about my representation of time.
我这样做的原因是我觉得我在压抑某些东西，就像我的脑子里有一些关于我对时间的表述的谎言。
And when I spend some tough moments, really, it does, as great as I feel at 50, I truly feel better than I did in my 30s, if I think in terms of vigor and understanding of life and all that.
当我度过一些艰难的时刻时，确实，如果我从活力和对生活的理解等方面考虑，就像我在 50 岁的时候感觉一样好，我真的感觉比 30 多岁时更好。
But the fact that there's no do-over and that I actually don't want to live in the delusion that I have forever, I think that's a huge mistake.
但事实是，没有重来，而且我实际上不想永远生活在我的幻想中，我认为这是一个巨大的错误。
That was a heavy moment.
那是一个沉重的时刻。
And I'm probably still grieving it.
我可能还在为此感到悲伤。
I can kind of sense it a little bit.
我能稍微感觉到一点。
It comes up as a kind of odd constellation of feelings.
它表现为一种奇怪的感觉。
But by acknowledging that I was a coward in certain, perhaps many circumstances, it's actually allowed me to be much braver in leaning into the stuff that sucks.
但通过承认自己在某些情况下（或许在很多情况下）是个胆小鬼，实际上让我更加勇敢地去做那些糟糕的事情。
It's such a weird thing, and it almost sounds like we're constructing this.
这是一件很奇怪的事情，听起来几乎像是我们正在建造它。
It's a real thing.
这是真实的事情。
And I think the real key, if anyone wants to try it, is to not go do the acknowledge where you were wrong so that you can not feel it anymore.
我认为，如果有人想尝试的话，真正的关键是不要承认自己错了，这样你就再也感觉不到它了。
You have to go into it with the almost acceptance that you might stay there forever, but of course you won't, right?
你必须带着几乎接受你可能永远留在那里的态度进入它，但你当然不会，对吧？
It's like this bullshitting of self that is useful.
就像这种自我废话是有用的。
Earlier you were talking about sensory desensitization, and it's so funny you said that because we took a brief break to relieve our bladders.
早些时候您谈到了感觉脱敏，您这么说很有趣，因为我们短暂休息以缓解膀胱压力。
And I was walking back, and I thought, "I got to tell the Charlie Gilbert story." The Charlie Gilbert story is the following.
当我往回走的时候，我想，“我必须讲述查理·吉尔伯特的故事。”查理·吉尔伯特的故事如下。
Charlie Gilbert was, is, a very renowned neuroscientist.
查理·吉尔伯特过去是、现在也是一位非常著名的神经科学家。
He was at the Rockefeller University in New York, and I'll never forget, as a graduate student, he came, and you do these lunches with the visiting speaker, and they bring lunch out, and the lunch isn't great, but it wasn't terrible.
他在纽约的洛克菲勒大学，我永远不会忘记，作为一名研究生，他来了，你和来访的演讲者一起吃午餐，他们把午餐拿出来，午餐不是很好，但也不可怕。
It was fairly nutritious.
这是相当有营养的。
And typically, the speaker eats, but they mostly talk.
通常，说话者会吃东西，但他们大部分时间都是在说话。
And I'll never forget, he said, "No, I'm not eating lunch.
我永远不会忘记，他说，“不，我不吃午餐。
I'm going to my favorite restaurant tonight in Napa." And I said, "Is it going to be a big meal?" He said, "No, not at all, but I want my senses to be tuned to the subtlety of every bit of it." And I said, "Is the food rich?" I'd never really been, at that point in my life, to a really nice restaurant, and I assumed, I still haven't been to the one he's referring to, but I assumed that the food would be really rich.
今晚我要去纳帕我最喜欢的餐厅。”我说：“这会是一顿大餐吗？”他说：“不，一点也不，但我希望我的感官能够适应每一个细节的微妙之处。”我说：“食物丰富吗？”在我生命中的那个时刻，我从来没有真正去过一家真正好的餐厅，我想，我仍然没有去过他所指的那家，但我认为食物会非常丰富。
And he said, "No, that's the point.
他说：“不，这就是重点。
The food is just delicious, but it's not overcome with flavor like the food you're eating right now." And I looked, and it was like turkey sandwiches and some chips or something, graduate student fare, some salads.
食物很美味，但并没有像你现在吃的食物那样被味道所征服。”我看了看，就像火鸡三明治和一些薯条什么的，研究生食物，一些沙拉。
And I asked him, I was like, "What do you mean?" He said, "When you're hungry, you're able to pick up on all sorts of subtleties and pleasures and aversions to what you don't like.
我问他，我说：“你是什么意思？”他说：“当你饥饿时，你能够发现各种微妙之处、快乐以及对你不喜欢的东西的厌恶。
You're allowed to not like food, even when you're paying a lot of money for it.
你可以不喜欢食物，即使你花了很多钱。
In fact, in those circumstances, you're particularly allowed to send things back.
事实上，在这种情况下，您特别可以退回东西。
People don't realize this." And he said, I'll never forget, he said, "This pertains to most all experiences in life." And I was like, "Whoa.
人们没有意识到这一点。”他说，我永远不会忘记，他说，“这适用于生活中的大多数经历。”我当时想，“哇。
Wow." Well, he's from New York City and Very sophisticated, clearly.
哇。”嗯，他来自纽约，显然非常老练。
But what he was describing is exactly what we're talking about, what you're talking about.
但他所描述的正是我们正在谈论的，也是你正在谈论的。
That if we dull our senses, we miss all of it.
如果我们的感官迟钝，我们就会错过这一切。
We miss the difference between crude and refined.
我们错过了粗制和精制之间的区别。
It's not just like this ability to get into this ultra-refined state.
进入这种超精境界的能力可不只是这样而已。
This was before intermittent fasting became a thing, so.
这是在间歇性禁食成为一种事情之前，所以。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Beautiful story.
美丽的故事。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Man, he nailed it.
伙计，他成功了。
I can't take any credit for it.
我不能为此承担任何功劳。
He just nailed it.
他刚刚成功了。
I just have a good memory for things that stand out.
我只是对那些突出的事情有很好的记忆力。
So now I want to talk about relationships.
所以现在我想谈谈人际关系。
Something I didn't anticipate we were going to talk about, but before we came in here today, we were sort of reflecting on what our happy lives currently are, and you said something, and I'm going to get the language wrong, so forgive me, but it's sort of like the exploration of relationship also involves this opportunity to explore all these different dimensions and the transitions between them, and it's like a vast, probably infinite landscape between two people.
我没想到我们会谈论一些事情，但在我们今天来到这里之前，我们有点反思我们目前的幸福生活是什么，你说了一些话，我会用错语言，所以请原谅我，但这有点像对关系的探索也涉及到探索所有这些不同维度以及它们之间的过渡的机会，这就像两个人之间广阔的、可能是无限的景观。
I think I'm starting to get my head around that one.
我想我已经开始思考这个问题了。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Tell me more on how you think about it.
告诉我更多你的想法。
You don't have to reveal any details of your personal life.
您不必透露您个人生活的任何细节。
It's such a great framework.
这是一个很棒的框架。
Can an argument that you didn't want to have become the point of enrichment?
一场你不想发生的争论能否成为充实的点？
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Let's start by we are rubbing against things to be, not to rub against things.
让我们从我们正在与事物发生摩擦开始，而不是与事物发生摩擦。
Being is that, is this mapping yourself by rubbing against things.
存在就是这样，就是通过与事物的摩擦来映射自己。
Relationships are very powerful for that.
为此，人际关系非常强大。
Alone, you're also rubbing against things, but just different things.
独自一人时，你也在摩擦事物，但只是不同的事物。
It's also a practice to be alone, and both of them are very important.
独处也是一种修行，两者都很重要。
But when you relate, you become.
但当你联系起来时，你就成为了。
This is being.
这就是存在。
It's a relationship thing.
这是一个关系问题。
Everything exists only as a form of a relationship.
一切都仅以关系的形式存在。
Now, this is the big picture.
现在，这是大局。
Of course, now we can take it into the human relationships, and some of these things are not going to be so easy to digest.
当然，现在我们可以把它带入人际关系中，其中有些东西就不会那么容易消化了。
I believe the make or break element is we are together in this game, not one against the other.
我相信成败的关键在于我们在这场比赛中团结一致，而不是互相对抗。
It's not ping pong, but it is a game, an infinite game in that sense, that we want to sustain the play.
这不是乒乓球，但它是一场游戏，从某种意义上说是一场无限的游戏，我们希望维持比赛。
It's not a finite scenario where we want to finish, we want to win.
这不是一个我们想要完成的有限场景，我们想要获胜。
We want to continue, and we have to create this practice, shared practice, how to be in this game of evolution, of transformation, of insight together.
我们想要继续下去，我们必须创造这种实践，共享实践，如何共同参与这场进化、转型和洞察的游戏。
It's not a fixed point.
这不是一个固定点。
I cannot come from the place of I am X, Y, Z.
我不能来自我是 X、Y、Z 的地方。
I'm already a finished product in that sense.
从这个意义上说，我已经是一个成品了。
If the other side is a finished product in their mind, it can't work.
如果对方在他们心目中是成品的话，那是不行的。
That's why it's the make or break.
这就是为什么它是成败的原因。
Not sexual attraction, not love in that sense of that chemical concoction, romantic love, but this element, and it's true for every meaningful relationship, and I believe also for romantic relationships.
不是性吸引力，不是化学混合物意义上的爱，浪漫的爱，而是这个元素，对于每一个有意义的关系都是如此，我相信对于浪漫关系也是如此。
And then around them, you've got to wrap the other sides, the physical love, which is the sexual attraction, the romantic, emotional one, and a higher concept of love, not one that we speak through lawyers if you say the wrong thing after 30 years of marriage.
然后围绕着他们，你必须包裹住对方，肉体的爱，也就是性的吸引力，浪漫的、情感的爱，以及更高的爱的概念，而不是我们在结婚30年后如果你说错的话通过律师所说的爱。
What kind of love is that?
那是什么样的爱？
That breaks like this, that switches.
就这样断了，就切换了。
This is not love.
这不是爱。
But really this meta concept of love.
但这确实是爱的元概念。
Meta as well.
元也是如此。
So relationships are a form of a practice together, and they must be cultivated as such.
因此，关系是共同实践的一种形式，必须这样培养。
We're using each other, but we're helping each other as well, and we're together in this game, going through life's experiences, crisis, helping each other, bringing kids or not bringing kids.
我们互相利用，但我们也在互相帮助，我们在这个游戏中在一起，经历人生的经历、危机，互相帮助，带孩子或不带孩子。
This is a core piece, and I don't often hear it pointed as a central element.
这是一个核心部分，我不经常听到它被指出是一个中心元素。
Hmm, that seems to be a good partner for that.
嗯，这似乎是一个很好的合作伙伴。
Usually, it's a good partner for something else, which is all good.
通常，它是其他事物的好伙伴，这都很好。
Should respect it, but this is the make or break for a long-term relationship.
应该尊重它，但这是长期关系的成败。
I love the one who loves to practice.
我喜欢一个爱练习的人。
It can rub people really the wrong way, but now you understand why it is said in this way.
这确实会激怒人们，但现在你明白为什么这样说了。
This is the love that choice, that deep choice in you.
这就是爱的选择，你内心深处的选择。
Okay, you're a partner.
好吧，你是合伙人。
Now we can go.
现在我们可以走了。
We are here at this practice.
我们在这里进行这次练习。
We are not against each other.
我们并不互相反对。
We are supportive of each other, and we play this game.
我们互相支持，我们玩这个游戏。
I need your attention.
我需要你的关注。
I need your presence.
我需要你的存在。
I can't have you check out.
我不能让你退房。
And there is this infinite game that we play that might finish at a certain moment, but it just actually changes its face.
我们玩的这个无限游戏可能会在某个时刻结束，但它实际上只是改变了它的面貌。
It never finishes.
它永远不会结束。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love it.
我喜欢它。
And I feel obligated to raise an example of relational dynamics that's outside of romance, which is of all things, the Grateful Dead.
我觉得有必要举一个浪漫之外的关系动态的例子，这就是感恩而死乐队。
A good friend who's an amazing punk rock musician encouraged me to listen to the Grateful Dead I didn't have an aversion to it, but I didn't have a tendency to want to play it.
一位好朋友是一位出色的朋克摇滚音乐家，他鼓励我听《Grateful Dead》，我对此并不反感，但我也没有想演奏它的倾向。
Now I really like it.
现在我真的很喜欢它。
I don't know if I'm into it, but I really like it.
我不知道我是否喜欢它，但我真的很喜欢它。
So I watched a few documentaries about the Grateful Dead.
所以我看了一些关于感恩而死乐队的纪录片。
They come from my hometown.
他们来自我的家乡。
They used to hang out at a music store near where I grew up.
他们常常在我长大的地方附近的一家音乐商店闲逛。
They were around until they weren't.
他们一直存在，直到他们消失为止。
Even went to some shows.
甚至还去看了一些演出。
In this documentary about the Grateful Dead, they talk about the amazing chemistry that this band had, just the amazing chemistry, and why people literally followed them around the world.
在这部关于感恩而死乐队的纪录片中，他们谈论了这个乐队所拥有的令人惊叹的化学反应，以及为什么人们在世界各地追随他们。
And then they talk about why it suffered, why the chemistry fell apart at a certain point, and then maybe was restored.
然后他们谈论为什么它会受到影响，为什么化学反应在某个时刻崩溃，然后可能又恢复了。
And it was one word.
这只是一个词。
They asked what happened.
他们问发生了什么事。
They said, "Cocaine." But then what they said next was cocaine made people very focused on their own goal-directed behavior.
他们说：“可卡因。”但他们接下来说的是可卡因让人们非常关注自己的目标导向行为。
And even though everyone was playing together, and they all knew the songs, and they were paying attention, someone or several people were kind of vying for something that was more about them as opposed to the chemistry and dynamics.
尽管每个人都在一起演奏，他们都知道这些歌曲，而且他们都很集中注意力，但有些人或几个人还是在争夺更多关于他们的东西，而不是化学反应和动力。
Because cocaine is mainly a dopamine-related thing, it just kind of speaks to the fact that if we lean too hard into, it's not just about me thinking, but in terms of advancement, like got to get to this place, the group doesn't necessarily move forward.
因为可卡因主要是一种与多巴胺相关的东西，它只是说明了这样一个事实：如果我们过于投入，这不仅仅是我的思考，而是在进步方面，比如到达这个地方，这个团队不一定会前进。
And so we need leaders, but it's more like this dynamic subordination where there's a flock of birds moving forward, and then one replaces.
所以我们需要领导者，但这更像是一种动态的从属关系，一群鸟向前移动，然后一只鸟取代。
And I feel like in any kind of relationship, whether or not it's two or more in a work situation, or maybe even romantic relationship between two people, that there's some sense of this kind of subordinating the "I."
我觉得在任何类型的关系中，无论是工作中的两个或两个以上的关系，还是两个人之间的浪漫关系，都存在某种“我”从属的感觉。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
In the deep sense of it, in the neurology part of it, we are sharing kind of the allostasis, the body budget.
从深层意义上讲，在神经病学部分，我们正在共享一种动态平衡，即身体预算。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
We are sharing it, right?
我们正在分享它，对吗？
So it's a way for us to be metabolically bringing in more resources.
所以这是我们通过新陈代谢引入更多资源的一种方式。
So that's even the neurological reality of it.
这就是它的神经学现实。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
That's why also grief is so devastating, because it removes in a moment huge amount of resources.
这就是为什么悲伤如此具有破坏性，因为它会瞬间夺走大量的资源。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
All of a sudden, it's pulled out of you, as if it's not really.
突然之间，它就从你身上被抽走了，就好像它不是真的一样。
The Hofstadter talks about this, the loop is still there.
霍夫施塔特谈到了这一点，循环仍然存在。
It's part of your loop already.
它已经是你循环的一部分了。
It's integrated, but there is the resource part.
它是集成的，但是有资源部分。
And how am I going to face these challenges without that person?
如果没有那个人，我将如何面对这些挑战？
It's highly related to the grieving thing.
这与悲伤的事情有很大关系。
It's not removed from it.
它并没有从中删除。
It's maybe the core of it.
这或许就是它的核心。
Not often mentioned, again, in relation to grief, but it's a very egotistical thing.
与悲伤有关的事情很少被提及，但这是一件非常自私的事情。
Has to operate in such a way.
必须按照这样的方式来操作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Along the lines of music, for the longest time, I've had this question, and I'm hoping you can help me shed some light on the answer, which is there are some forms of music, I think of like Bob Dylan, certain songs that Joe Strummer from The Clash sang.
沿着音乐的路线，很长一段时间以来，我一直有这个问题，我希望你能帮助我阐明答案，那就是有一些形式的音乐，我认为像鲍勃·迪伦，《冲突》中的乔·斯特鲁默唱的某些歌曲。
There are going to be other examples that I'm not aware of, but everyone will know what I'm talking about in a moment, where the words, if read literally, make no sense, but somehow they seem to reveal a fundamental truth that people can relate to.
还会有其他我不知道的例子，但很快每个人都会知道我在说什么，如果从字面上看，这些词毫无意义，但不知怎的，它们似乎揭示了一个人们可以理解的基本真理。
And when I say fundamental, I mean people seem to agree that there's something important there.
当我说根本性的时候，我的意思是人们似乎都同意那里有一些重要的东西。
It sounds important.
听起来很重要。
And it's not just because it sounds beautiful or melodic.
这不仅仅是因为它听起来优美或旋律优美。
There's something important there, and that maybe, just maybe, these songs are tapping into some language of the nervous system or of whatever human experience that we don't have a word for.
其中有一些重要的东西，也许，只是也许，这些歌曲正在利用神经系统的某种语言，或者我们无法用语言描述的任何人类经验。
We don't have a concept to pin to.
我们没有一个可以固定的概念。
And my question is: Is there an analogous phenomenon in movement?
我的问题是：运动中是否存在类似的现象？
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Most definitely.
绝对是。
There is an aesthetic value to it, beyond the symbolic significance.
它具有超越象征意义的审美价值。
That's why we are hitting constantly this glass ceiling we cannot break through, because we're approaching everything from the intellect, from this place, and it does not carry certain pieces with it.
这就是为什么我们不断地触及这个无法突破的玻璃天花板，因为我们从智力、从这个地方接近一切，而它并没有携带某些部分。
I can't do it in this way.
我不能用这种方式来做。
This is not understanding.
这不是理解。
I cannot reach understanding in this way.
我无法通过这种方式达成理解。
I only reach knowing.
我只达到知道。
Understanding is much bigger.
理解力要大得多。
It's much more visceral.
这是更发自内心的。
It's much more bodily and emotional and musical and rhythmical.
它更加注重身体、情感、音乐和节奏。
And there is an aesthetic value to the word when I say slippery.
当我说“滑”时，这个词有一种美学价值。
And in a song, even more, there is rhythmicality, there is moments, there is silences that are placed correctly.
在歌曲中，更重要的是，有节奏、有时刻、有正确放置的沉默。
And that's why good music, Tom Waits is Tom Waits.
这就是为什么好的音乐，汤姆·威茨就是汤姆·威茨。
He brings that thing always present in all these different ways.
他总是以各种不同的方式呈现这种东西。
It's so diverse, and it's so powerful.
它是如此多样化，而且如此强大。
It affected so many genres and people, and it's the mastery of that.
它影响了如此多的流派和人物，这就是它的掌握。
Instead of the AI stripped down, give me the recipe, I make it, and the cake doesn't taste good.
与其把人工智能剥离掉，不如给我菜谱，我做，但蛋糕味道并不好。
I followed the recipe to a T.
我按照食谱做了T。
There is missing components.
缺少组件。
And some of them we know about, and we can talk about, but most of them we will never find.
其中一些我们知道，我们可以谈论，但大多数我们永远找不到。
So the magic, that's why the magic is in the doing.
所以神奇，这就是为什么神奇就在于做事。
The magic is in the practicing.
魔法在于练习。
And that's why sitting here is very different than doing this on screen.
这就是为什么坐在这里与在屏幕上做这件事有很大不同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
And we share something.
我们分享一些东西。
Our bodies are communicating in all these ways that you know about, and all our senses are engaged, and we're sharing this space, and we're tuning forks are aligning in all these rhythms and So it's different.
我们的身体以你知道的所有这些方式进行交流，我们所有的感官都参与其中，我们共享这个空间，我们的音叉在所有这些节奏中对齐，所以这是不同的。
We can't keep coming back to this illusion that we can put it together if we take all the ingredients that we know of, because there are more ingredients that we don't know of.
我们不能总是回到这样的幻想：如果我们采用我们所知道的所有成分，我们就可以将它组合在一起，因为还有更多我们不知道的成分。
And the good news, we can interact with it directly by engaging with the practice, with the motion, with the body.
好消息是，我们可以通过练习、运动、身体来直接与它互动。
So body movement, human movement, carries huge amount of that.
所以身体运动，人类的运动，承载着巨大的能量。
It's not the same for me to do a movement like this, and now I do it with a different focus point of awareness, of attention.
对我来说，做这样的动作是不一样的，现在我用不同的意识、注意力焦点来做它。
I totally transformed the neurology of it, and the effects of it on myself and on the environment as well.
我彻底改变了它的神经学，以及它对我自己和环境的影响。
To watch a dance performance live is extremely different than to watch-- It actually doesn't make any sense to watch a music video in that sense of movement, because there is a critical mass in relation to human movement which is not reached there.
观看现场舞蹈表演与观看是非常不同的——实际上，在这种运动意义上观看音乐录影带没有任何意义，因为与人体运动相关的临界质量尚未达到那里。
Other things, okay, you can do something.
其他的事情，好吧，你可以做点什么。
Music is arguable, right?
音乐是有争议的，对吧？
To listen to Tom Waits live, maybe that's a totally different thing.
听 Tom Waits 的现场表演，也许是完全不同的事情。
I never did.
我从来没有这样做过。
I never had the chance, but I would love to.
我从来没有机会，但我很想这么做。
Maybe that will transform my experience of it totally.
也许这会完全改变我的经历。
We have to give attention to these, and a place for these X quantities, like Sister Corita Kent, she mentioned this.
我们必须关注这些，并为这些 X 数量提供一个位置，就像 Corita Kent 修女提到的这一点。
Always leave a room for X quantities, the unknown quantities, because you can not leave room for them.
始终为 X 数量（未知数量）留出空间，因为您无法为它们留出空间。
It's not like they're always there.
他们并不总是在那里。
No. In some ways, in some stratas of how we approach things, we don't leave room for it.
不。在某些方面，在我们处理事情的某些层面上，我们没有给它留下空间。
It's important.
这很重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm struck by the artists, the practitioners, whether it's movement, dance, or visual art, or music, that tap into something that language alone can't tap into, that film alone can't tap into.
我对艺术家、实践者感到震惊，无论是动作、舞蹈、视觉艺术还是音乐，它们都触及了仅靠语言无法触及的东西，仅靠电影也无法触及的东西。
And the example that I often go to, because I like the work so much, is a Rothko, which most people would say is just a couple blobs of color, couple squares or rectangles.
我经常举的例子是罗斯科的作品，因为我非常喜欢这幅作品，大多数人会说它只是几个颜色斑点、几个正方形或长方形。
But, the vision scientist in me, and I'm not the one that unpacked this, but a guy named Bevil Conway, who's at NIH, explained this best, that what Rothko was able to do was because he eliminated the frame, and there's no white, that he combined colors in ways that when you look at it, any Rothko, you're seeing colors that you've never seen before because of the way color space interacts.
但是，我身上的视觉科学家，我不是解开这个谜团的人，但是美国国立卫生研究院的一个名叫 Bevil Conway 的人对此做了最好的解释，罗斯科之所以能够做到这一点是因为他消除了框架，并且没有白色，他以某种方式组合颜色，当你看它时，任何罗斯科，你都会看到你以前从未见过的颜色，因为颜色空间相互作用的方式。
But here's the interesting thing.
但这是有趣的事情。
It's not clear to me that Rothko understood that as he was doing it.
我不清楚罗斯科在这样做时是否理解这一点。
So it does seem like some people are able to kind of scratch and dig and create around something that they feel, I don't know what they're feeling, but they get to some fundamental truth that becomes the signature of what they're doing.
因此，似乎有些人能够围绕他们的感受进行摸索、挖掘和创造，我不知道他们的感受是什么，但他们得到了一些基本事实，这些事实成为他们正在做的事情的签名。
Maybe Andy Warhol did it with his kind of play on marketing and branding, and in the end, it becomes very simple.
也许安迪·沃霍尔通过他在营销和品牌方面的发挥做到了这一点，最终，它变得非常简单。
What pops out is very simple, but it feels like a macronutrient-
弹出来的东西很简单，但感觉像是一种常量营养素——
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of experience, and you go, "I can't get that anywhere else.
经验，然后你会说：“我在其他地方找不到。
I can't just look at a Campbell's Soup can, but seeing them arranged that way, I can appreciate something completely different about marketing more generally, or brand, or visual art, or color, in the case of Rothko."
我不能只看金宝汤罐头，但看到它们以这种方式排列，我可以欣赏到与罗斯科的营销、品牌、视觉艺术或色彩完全不同的东西。”
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
I'm going to draw you into something that you really know a lot about.
我将把你带入一些你真正了解的事情中。
Actually, it's related to art.
其实这和艺术有关。
What are these great artists?
这些伟大的艺术家是什么？
Well, the practitioners, and I'm a broken record with it, they realized things much earlier because they're in the experience.
嗯，从业者们，我是一个打破记录的人，他们很早就意识到了事情，因为他们在经历中。
What did they realize?
他们意识到了什么？
The eyes don't operate like a camera.
眼睛的运作方式不像相机。
That's the wrong model.
那是错误的模型。
When I look at your face, all the pixels are not equal, and I move my eyes in a certain way that constructs you.
当我看着你的脸时，所有的像素都不相等，我以某种构建你的方式移动我的眼睛。
So what did these great artists do?
那么这些伟大的艺术家都做了什么呢？
They did deformed, wrong paintings.
他们画出了畸形的、错误的画。
But they move in front of your eyes.
但它们却在你眼前移动。
The perspective is wrong.
观点是错误的。
The hand is placed incorrectly, but it respects the way that our brain looks at it.
手的位置不正确，但它尊重我们大脑看待它的方式。
And this only came much later in terms of understanding why.
就理解原因而言，这是很晚才出现的。
Because we have all these distortions from great artists.
因为我们有伟大艺术家的所有这些扭曲。
If they wanted to do it right, they would've done it right, hyperrealistic, et cetera.
如果他们想把事情做好，他们就会做得对、超现实等等。
This is a crucial thing.
这是一件至关重要的事情。
Our models, the neuromuscular model is another one.
我们的模型，神经肌肉模型是另一种。
The skeletal neuromuscular model, the fascia skeletal neuromuscular model, and you can expand it more and more, and they're all the time replaced, and it's important that we replace them.
骨骼神经肌肉模型，筋膜骨骼神经肌肉模型，你可以越来越扩展它，它们一直在更换，我们更换它们很重要。
But there is something even more important, the realization that all models are wrong, but some are useful.
但还有更重要的事情，即认识到所有模型都是错误的，但有些模型是有用的。
That quote, I use it a lot in the sense that I need to switch up my models to useful models at this current moment, and understand that this model will also be wrong in essence, but it doesn't mean that I have a choice.
这句话，我经常使用它，因为我需要在当前时刻将我的模型切换到有用的模型，并且理解这个模型本质上也是错误的，但这并不意味着我有选择。
I have to use models.
我必须使用模型。
There is no choice about it.
对此别无选择。
So when we are creating this art, and we are respecting this, it's a representation of these deeper models.
因此，当我们创造这种艺术时，我们尊重这一点，它是这些更深层次模型的代表。
For me, as an example in the physical body, there is something about fluid mechanics and pressure changes and liquidity of the body that was a huge leap in how I moved compared to the old balls and levers thing.
对我来说，以身体为例，与旧的球和杠杆相比，流体力学、压力变化和身体流动性是我移动方式的巨大飞跃。
And it started up here in this understanding of, "Oh, wait, that's not how things work." From there, my whole body changed for the better.
它是从这样的理解开始的：“哦，等等，事情不是这样的。”从那时起，我的整个身体都变好了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When did that occur, that shift?
这种转变是什么时候发生的？
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
In the recent decade, a bit more.
近十年来，多了一点。
Looking for these models of how is the body constructed?
正在寻找这些身体构造的模型吗？
What is the right way of running?
正确的跑步方式是怎样的？
What is the...
什么是...
Don't tell me how the body's constructed.
不要告诉我身体是如何构造的。
I'm not interested.
我对此不感兴趣。
These people are not actually even moving eventually.
这些人最终实际上甚至没有移动。
And again, you don't need to test it there.
再说一遍，您不需要在那里测试它。
You're not wet tested often.
您不经常进行湿测试。
So it's not representative of a high level of movement.
所以它并不代表高水平的运动。
Somebody who engages with it will tell you.
参与其中的人会告诉你。
So I slowly realized the fault is not in the way that we are structured or in the practice, the way that we are practicing.
所以我慢慢意识到问题不在于我们的结构方式或修行方式，也不在于我们修行的方式。
It is in the model.
它在模型中。
It is in the way that we think of movement to begin with, that makes everything, your back pain can go away from a change of the model.
正是我们对运动的最初思考方式，才使得一切，你的背痛可以通过改变模型而消失。
It's the most powerful thing that I can give physically to someone.
这是我能给予某人的最有力的物质。
So to work with models, to refine them, to change them, to switch them around is important for the artist, for the health, longevity, for cognition, for problem-solving, for everything.
因此，与模型一起工作，完善它们，改变它们，改变它们对于艺术家、对于健康、长寿、认知、解决问题以及一切都很重要。
It keeps coming back to this most important thing.
它不断回到这个最重要的事情上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So rather than think about fascia or muscle or connective tissue, it sounds to me like you're thinking about certainly how all the pieces fit together.
因此，在我看来，你不是在考虑筋膜、肌肉或结缔组织，而是在考虑所有这些部分如何组合在一起。
And I've heard you say this before, it's more about the organization of all these pieces, as opposed-
我以前听你说过，这更多的是关于所有这些部分的组织，而不是-
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
The relationships
关系
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the relationships.
的关系。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
How they relate.
他们如何关联。
This realization that especially in the body schema, it's immediately changeable.
这种认识特别是在身体模式中，它是可以立即改变的。
In the emotional schema, in the abstract one, it's a lot slower of a process.
在情感模式中，在抽象模式中，这个过程要慢得多。
But if I hold this cup, I immediately change.
但如果我拿着这个杯子，我立刻就会改变。
It's so quick to change the body.
身体变化真快。
This is something that Moshe Feldenkrais realized a long time ago.
这是摩西·费登奎斯（Moshe Feldenkrais）很久以前就意识到的事情。
People still don't appreciate, don't understand the power of that work.
人们仍然不欣赏、不理解这项工作的力量。
We've desensitized ourselves.
我们已经让自己变得麻木了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What do you think is the crux of that work that hopefully this conversation can get people reading and looking at that more deeply?
你认为这项工作的关键是什么，希望这次对话能让人们更深入地阅读和看待它？
I confess I haven't spent a lot of time with it, very little in fact.
我承认我没有花很多时间在它上面，事实上很少。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Awareness through movement.
通过运动获得意识。
In that sense, the same thing that I'm practicing.
从这个意义上说，我正在练习同样的事情。
I've learned a lot from him.
我从他身上学到了很多东西。
Not personally, of course.
当然不是个人。
He died when I was four years old.
我四岁时他去世了。
But in the sense of, don't tell me how I'm built.
但从某种意义上说，不要告诉我我是如何构建的。
Let me build myself.
让我来打造我自己吧。
Let me model myself.
让我给自己做个模特吧。
I can refreshen how my shoulder is with the right approach.
通过正确的方法，我可以恢复肩膀的状态。
And it's extremely powerful when you can interact with it.
当你可以与它互动时，它会变得非常强大。
The problem is, again, many times people don't want to interact with it.
问题是，很多时候人们不想与之互动。
You bring them to the water, but they don't want a drink.
你把它们带到水边，但它们不想喝水。
That's why I keep coming back to this crucial component.
这就是为什么我不断回到这个关键部分。
First, realize that you don't want.
首先，意识到你不想要。
First, that realization is already precious.
首先，这种认识已经很珍贵了。
And then from there, you know the old Pinocchio illusion.
然后从那里，你就知道了古老的匹诺曹幻觉。
Stimulation of the bicep tendon when touching your nose.
触摸鼻子时刺激二头肌腱。
You don't know this one?
你不认识这个吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-mm.
嗯嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
There are a few versions of it.
它有几个版本。
It's a pretty common one.
这是很常见的一种。
You touch your nose, and somebody stimulates with a vibration gun, the tendon, and your nose become longer.
你摸你的鼻子，有人用振动枪刺激肌腱，你的鼻子就会变长。
You feel as if your nose become longer.
你感觉鼻子好像变长了。
Or there is this version.
或者有这个版本。
You know this one?
你知道这个吗？
Put your finger against mine, and do this.
把你的手指放在我的手指上，然后这样做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
It's very bizarre.
这很奇怪。
It's hard to know where my finger stops and yours begins.
很难知道我的手指在哪里停止，你的手指从哪里开始。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
And another version of the Pinocchio illusion is we sit in front of each other, I rub my nose, and I rub your nose at the same time.
匹诺曹错觉的另一个版本是我们坐在彼此面前，我揉我的鼻子，我同时揉你的鼻子。
Or I tap my nose, and I tap your nose.
或者我轻拍我的鼻子，我也轻拍你的鼻子。
And again, these distortions.
再说一遍，这些扭曲。
What does it show you?
它向你展示了什么？
The change that you're after is immediately available.
您所追求的更改立即可用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
It's so potent.
它是如此强大。
It's now.
现在是了。
You're in depression.
你正处于抑郁状态。
You're in a bad state.
你的状态很不好。
I can flip you now.
我现在可以翻转你。
Chemically, you know that you can do that.
从化学角度来说，你知道你可以做到这一点。
But we can do this not chemically, and we can do this in a long-lasting way, and we can transform how we experience, but it takes a certain quality of the how we practice that has to be built through education, through connection, and then applied correctly.
但我们不能通过化学方式做到这一点，我们可以以持久的方式做到这一点，我们可以改变我们的体验方式，但这需要我们的实践方式具有一定的品质，必须通过教育、通过联系来建立，然后正确应用。
This is the most powerful thing I know, this interaction with the models and the transformation of the models, more than any structural approach, more than anything else.
这是我所知道的最强大的东西，这种与模型的交互以及模型的转换，比任何结构方法都更有效，比任何其他方法都更有效。
We have to invest in it.
我们必须对此进行投资。
We have to work on our models.
我们必须研究我们的模型。
Like for example, your bodily model, your emotional model, the schema, and your abstraction model, social model, et cetera.
例如，你的身体模型、你的情感模型、模式、你的抽象模型、社交模型等等。
We have a point of leverage, as Archimedes asked for, and we can lift the world.
正如阿基米德所要求的，我们有一个杠杆点，我们可以举起世界。
We can change our reality.
我们可以改变我们的现实。
This is the promise of being a practitioner, being in practice, and learning that everything is possible, that everything is malleable, everything is adaptable.
这是作为一个实践者的承诺，在实践中，并了解到一切皆有可能，一切都是可塑的，一切都是可适应的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love that you mentioned that The movement and sensory maps are very dynamic because the plasticity is so fast, in part because it's revealing what are ordinarily cloaked connections.
我喜欢你提到的运动和感觉图是非常动态的，因为可塑性是如此之快，部分原因是它揭示了通常隐藏的联系。
It's not the growth of a new connection yet.
这还不是新连接的增长。
The connections are there, we just don't know how to access them.
连接就在那里，我们只是不知道如何访问它们。
So certain forms of movement and sensation, like you said, like the hot bath and reading a short story or a poem.
所以某些形式的运动和感觉，就像你说的，比如洗热水澡和读短篇故事或诗歌。
Sitting at that transition point and having to deal with those two, what previously were incompatible experiences, unmasks a capacity that somebody has right then.
坐在这个转变点上，必须处理这两种以前不相容的经历，揭示了某人当时所拥有的能力。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Beautiful.
美丽。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there's no question that doing it repeatedly will lead to strengthening of that unmasking, make it more robust.
毫无疑问，反复这样做会加强这种揭露，使其更加稳健。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Let me tell you something about that that I want to share to help people.
让我告诉你一些我想分享来帮助人们的事情。
In my past ways, I would've looked at it and said, "Eh, it's not potent.
以我过去的方式，我会看着它并说：“呃，它没有效力。
It's a cool moment, but it's not potent." Now, I learned there is another category, another way of looking at it.
这是一个很酷的时刻，但它并不有效。”现在，我了解到还有另一个类别，还有另一种看待它的方式。
I don't need high volume, high intensity only to transform.
我不需要高容量、高强度，只是为了转变。
There is another important, more important maybe, freshness.
还有一个重要的，也许更重要的，就是新鲜感。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
A moment of freshness can transform you irrevocably.
片刻的新鲜感可以让你发生不可挽回的改变。
And that is something that I was blind to because I was a hard worker.
我对这一点视而不见，因为我是一个勤奋的人。
So I didn't realize that I just need a fresh moment, just a moment where things look different, feel different, I experience my body differently.
所以我没有意识到我只需要一个新鲜的时刻，只是一个事物看起来不同、感觉不同、我以不同方式体验我的身体的时刻。
And I've had these experiences in the past, and I've lost them.
我过去曾有过这些经历，但后来却失去了它们。
They've leaked between my fingers.
它们已经从我的手指间泄漏了。
And the reason is I didn't note them.
原因是我没有注意到它们。
I didn't stop to give them the power by noting it to myself, by paying attention to it.
我并没有停下来通过自己注意到它、通过关注它来赋予他们力量。
What we pay attention to grows.
我们关注的东西会增长。
So we don't necessarily need 1,000 reps, as we think, in order for it to lift.
因此，我们并不一定需要像我们想象的那样重复 1,000 次才能让它举起。
Maybe you have a pain in your shoulder, and you experience it as a form of hardness that you cannot penetrate, you cannot sense well into it.
也许你的肩膀疼痛，你将它体验为一种你无法穿透的坚硬形式，你无法很好地感知它。
And maybe through a certain practice of attention, I bring a moment of freshness, and then the pain is back again.
也许通过某种注意力练习，我带来了片刻的新鲜感，然后痛苦又回来了。
The past self, I would say, "That was nice, but it's not going to solve my problem." Now I know, "No, this can really solve my problem."
过去的自己，我会说，“那很好，但这并不能解决我的问题。”现在我知道，“不，这确实可以解决我的问题。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
This is how people with incredible challenges can work through things.
这就是那些面临巨大挑战的人如何克服困难。
This can take you above and beyond any kind of discipline, volume, intensity approach can.
这可以让你超越任何一种纪律、数量、强度的方法。
And I started to respect this and look for these moments of freshness.
我开始尊重这一点并寻找这些新鲜的时刻。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One reason that I'm so reassured by everything you're saying and reassured by the idea that there's going to be a return to a deep interest in complexity and really parsing things, as well as the realization that what sounds really complex is actually, it's simple, but it's in the gaps between everything else that's been described, right?
你所说的一切让我感到安心的原因之一是，人们将回归对复杂性和真正解析事物的浓厚兴趣，并且认识到听起来很复杂的东西实际上很简单，但它存在于所描述的其他所有内容之间的间隙中，对吗？
I can see why people like sets and reps, because there's no ambiguity.
我明白为什么人们喜欢组数和次数，因为没有任何歧义。
And the ambiguity is hard to embrace, and it almost starts to sound like be like water.
这种模糊性让人难以接受，听起来几乎像水一样。
Well, okay, that sounds great, but be like water?
好吧，听起来不错，但是像水一样吗？
Bruce Lee, but he did a lot of sets and reps, too, I have to imagine.
李小龙，但我必须想象他也做了很多组和次数。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think that it's a basic human drive to want to understand at least oneself, and by trying to do that, we immediately become neuroscientists, psychologists, philosophers.
我认为，想要至少了解自己是人类的基本动力，通过努力做到这一点，我们立即成为神经科学家、心理学家、哲学家。
It kind of stems out from there.
它有点源于那里。
There's no way to understand one's own life and self and people around you without having some interest in these things.
如果不对这些事情产生兴趣，就无法了解自己的生活、自我和周围的人。
And the idea that what seems subtle is actually so potent is such an important idea.
看似微妙的东西实际上是如此有效，这是一个非常重要的想法。
I'm so glad you raised it.
我很高兴你提出了它。
I haven't ever had that thought specifically, but now that you say it, I'm like, "This, yes.
我从来没有具体想过这个想法，但现在你这么说，我会想，“这个，是的。
Yes, yes, yes, yes." I should start thinking about it.
是的，是的，是的，是的。”我应该开始考虑一下。
So I'm learning from you right now, and I think I'm not alone in that.
所以我现在正在向你学习，我想我并不孤单。
I know I'm not alone in that.
我知道我并不孤单。
Because we think of peak experiences as the thing.
因为我们认为巅峰体验才是最重要的。
But by definition, those peak experiences can't come very often.
但根据定义，这些高峰体验不会经常出现。
And I think a lot of the depression, the sense of a lack of meaning, comes from just waiting for the next big thing, that if you have enough of those, you eventually realize that they have some potency, but they're not life.
我认为很多抑郁症，一种缺乏意义的感觉，都来自于等待下一件大事，如果你有足够的这些，你最终会意识到它们有一定的效力，但它们不是生活。
You know?
你知道？
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So as a daily practice with movement, you've talked over the years, and we talked last time, and there's this great video of you online.
因此，作为日常运动练习，您多年来一直在谈论，我们上次也谈过，网上有一段关于您的精彩视频。
I love the one where you put on a backpack, and you move through a crowded city trying not to make contact with anybody as a way to just move your body differently.
我喜欢你背上背包，穿过拥挤的城市，尽量不与任何人接触，以此以不同的方式移动你的身体。
And some people might look at that and say, "Okay, well, okay, he could do that.
有些人可能会看着这个并说：“好吧，好吧，好吧，他可以做到这一点。
I'm not going to do that." But the commute example I gave earlier, it's just a different version of it.
我不会那样做。”但我之前给出的通勤示例只是它的不同版本。
I think that if people could start to see their body as this vehicle that they have so much agency over, I think people would still exercise.
我认为，如果人们能够开始将自己的身体视为他们拥有如此多代理权的工具，我认为人们仍然会锻炼身体。
They want those health benefits.
他们想要这些健康益处。
But if they were to start incorporating small amounts of movement practice, even just with their hands or their toes or whatever you know?
但是，如果他们开始进行少量的运动练习，即使只是用手或脚趾或任何你知道的东西呢？
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
And you can do it while exercising.
而且你可以在锻炼的时候做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
It's about a transformation of the whole perspective.
这是关于整个观点的转变。
I also exercise.
我也锻炼身体。
It's about changing the paradigm.
这是关于改变范式。
Everything is an opportunity.
一切都是机会。
And again, like I told you, you can do push-ups or bench presses, and by putting attention into the fact that you're pulling the bar close, not just pushing it away.
再说一次，就像我告诉你的那样，你可以做俯卧撑或卧推，并注意你正在将杠铃拉近，而不仅仅是将其推开。
While you're pushing it away, you transform something.
当你把它推开时，你就改变了一些东西。
And I know it sounds as if, "Eh, what's that going to do?" Because the corrupted self jumps again and wants this immediate result, this or that, but anyways, you're doing those bench presses So you don't need to change that.
我知道这听起来好像是，“呃，那会做什么？”因为腐败的自我再次跳跃并想要立即的结果，这个或那个，但无论如何，你正在做那些卧推所以你不需要改变它。
You don't need to start to do some weird toe and-
你不需要开始做一些奇怪的脚趾并且-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
...
...
finger exercises.
手指练习。
It's about educating ourself how to approach almost every scenario, just like you did with the traffic jam.
这是关于教育我们自己如何应对几乎所有情况，就像你在交通拥堵时所做的那样。
Playfulness is one thing that we mentioned.
好玩是我们提到的一件事。
Observation and presence are key.
观察和存在是关键。
What starts to clear its space is this quality of scatteredness, multiple things that are switching.
开始清理它的空间的是这种分散的品质，多种事物正在切换。
All this starts to become, and again, remorse, hyper-expensive.
所有这一切开始再次变得悔恨、昂贵。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
They are much more evil than what we think is evil.
他们比我们想象的邪恶得多。
We put evil still in this category, far away.
我们仍然将邪恶归入这一类别，远离它。
Evil is the indifference to those things, those little moments that they steal our lives, and it's very hard to get rid of it.
邪恶就是对那些东西的冷漠，对它们偷走我们生命的那些小时刻的漠不关心，而且很难摆脱它。
It's very hard to let go of it, but there is a promise in every moment.
很难放手，但每时每刻都有一个承诺。
I start now in the way that I'm talking to you, in the way that I'm listening, and I remind myself, and this brings me to that quality, remembering what is important, cultivating that.
我现在开始以我与你们交谈的方式，以我正在倾听的方式，我提醒自己，这让我达到了那种品质，记住什么是重要的，并培养它。
How much did you invest in certain concepts?
您在某些概念上投入了多少？
Tremendously, and that's why they're present in your life.
非常重要，这就是为什么它们出现在你的生活中。
If you don't invest in these concepts, don't expect things to change.
如果你不投资这些概念，就不要指望事情会改变。
Start there.
从那里开始。
Wake up.
醒来吧。
Think about it.
想一想。
Watch this episode or others, or go down the...
观看本集或其他集，或继续...
And do it attentively.
并且用心去做。
Make notes for yourself.
为自己做笔记。
Keep coming back to it again and again.
不断地一次又一次地回到它。
This will start a process.
这将启动一个过程。
Without this, there is no promise.
没有这个，就没有承诺。
Without this, yeah, it's true.
没有这个，是的，这是真的。
The corrupted self is right.
败坏的自己是对的。
It's not going to work.
这是行不通的。
It's too far away.
太远了。
I don't know what to do.
我不知道该怎么办。
I'm freezing altogether.
我整个人都冻僵了
And I can give you some protocol, and we've talked about it before.
我可以给你一些协议，我们之前已经讨论过。
You can hang, and you can do spinal waves, and you can spend some time in the squat, essentially stretching the body open, compressing the body fully.
你可以悬挂，你可以做脊椎波，你可以花一些时间蹲下，本质上是伸展身体，充分压缩身体。
Those are the hang and the squat.
这些就是悬吊和深蹲。
And the spinal waves, which is the connecting bit, this is great and great practices that I share with people, and there is more.
脊椎波是连接位，这是我与人们分享的伟大实践，而且还有更多。
Certain games, certain playfulness, but those are the specifics.
某些游戏，某些娱乐性，但这些都是具体情况。
That's not where the heart of things is.
这不是事情的核心所在。
The approach is what produce those things and what will produce many others, and we have to invest in that remembering, in making it important for ourselves.
方法会产生这些东西，也会产生许多其他东西，我们必须投资于这种记忆，让它对我们自己很重要。
That's the make or break for me.
这对我来说是成败的关键。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Would you be willing to indulge us with some reflections on different athletes and sports?
您愿意让我们谈谈对不同运动员和运动项目的一些思考吗？
Or maybe sports, we don't have to get into specific athletes unless you want.
或者也许是体育运动，除非您愿意，否则我们不必讨论特定的运动员。
Before we came in to record, you were talking about air sense.
在我们开始录音之前，你在谈论空气感。
I've never heard of air sense.
我从来没有听说过空气感。
We were talking about skateboarding.
我们正在谈论滑板。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Skaters have a word-
滑冰者有一句话——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
...
...
a different word for it maybe.
也许有不同的说法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I don't even know that they're aware that they do it.
好吧，我什至不知道他们是否意识到他们这样做了。
It was just a brief conversation, to give people context.
这只是一次简短的谈话，为人们提供背景信息。
It was a brief conversation about how some skateboarders look particularly impressive, like this kid, he's a grown man now, Antoine Dixon, who was amazing when he was a young kid, still is.
这是一次简短的对话，内容是关于一些滑板运动员如何看起来特别令人印象深刻，比如这个孩子，他现在已经是一个成年人了，安托万·迪克森(Antoine Dixon)，他小时候很了不起，现在仍然如此。
He did a bit of a comeback recently.
他最近有点卷土重来。
He's a phenomenal skateboarder.
他是一位出色的滑板运动员。
But if you watch him, he's doing things that other people do, some things other people don't do, but his arms never really fly up.
但如果你观察他，他会做别人做的事情，做别人不做的事情，但他的手臂从来没有真正飞起来。
His hands don't go up.
他的手没有举起来。
His knees sometimes are up near his ears as he's doing things, so he's catching everything.
当他做事时，他的膝盖有时会靠近耳朵，所以他能捕捉到一切。
A lot of people can do that, but he has this amazing ability to keep his hands and arms down throughout the entire trick.
很多人都能做到这一点，但他有这种惊人的能力，可以在整个动作过程中保持双手和手臂向下。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
But you're amazed by this because he doesn't recalibrates, rebalances using the hand.
但你对此感到惊讶，因为他没有用手重新校准、重新平衡。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He doesn't look like he has to use his arms in order to pop really high.
他看起来并不需要使用手臂才能弹得很高。
He doesn't have to kind of explode out of that squatted position.
他不需要从蹲着的位置爆发出来。
He somehow managed to put it into the rest of his body, and it looks awesome.
他不知何故设法将它放入身体的其他部分，看起来棒极了。
We'll put a clip to something.
我们会给一些东西加上一个剪辑。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's actually a really terrific bio about his personal comeback against addiction and what he's done with himself.
实际上，有一个非常精彩的传记，讲述了他个人戒毒的经历以及他对自己所做的事情。
It's just an amazing story, but his ability is just...
这只是一个令人惊奇的故事，但他的能力只是......
It's kind of like if you look at Jordan dunking in his prime, it's like something's different.
这有点像如果你看看乔丹在巅峰时期的扣篮，就会发现有些东西不一样了。
Yes, he's jumping high.
是的，他跳得很高。
Yes, he's jumping far.
是的，他跳得很远。
Yes, he's got his tongue out, and his signature Jordan, but it's the way the whole thing is put together.
是的，他伸出了舌头，还有他标志性的乔丹，但这就是整个事情的组合方式。
So it's a little bit harder to describe.
所以描述起来有点困难。
I should just send people to a clip.
我应该将人们发送到剪辑。
And you were talking about across sports, this notion of air sense, that some athletes just have this ability to orient and move through the air.
你在谈论跨运动项目，这种空气感的概念，一些运动员就是有这种在空中定向和移动的能力。
Can you tell me more about that and some examples that resonate with you?
您能告诉我更多相关信息以及一些引起您共鸣的例子吗？
And you, because you have this.
而你，因为你有这个。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
To a certain extent.
在一定程度上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
There are others who have it much better than me, but I grew up doing acrobatics in capoeira, and flipping and doing these things.
有些人比我做得更好，但我从小就做卡波耶拉杂技、翻转和做这些事情。
And very early on, I got the realization of, "Oh, there is these people, they're very coordinated.
很早就，我意识到，“哦，有这些人，他们非常协调。
They're very organized.
他们很有组织性。
They're very well-oriented." As long as they're in this normal vertical situation touching the ground.
他们的导向非常好。”只要它们处于接触地面的正常垂直状态。
But once they're in the air, they have no idea where they are.
但一旦他们在空中，他们就不知道自己在哪里。
And then others can navigate this scenario, which is clearly unique.
然后其他人就可以驾驭这个场景，这显然是独一无二的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
So we started to call it air sense.
所以我们开始称之为空气感。
Trampolinists are the most extreme example of it, and nowadays, high-level extreme athletes, skateboarders, they use trampoline a lot.
蹦床运动员就是其中最极端的例子，现在的高水平极限运动员、滑板运动员，他们都大量使用蹦床。
And those in the know, they know because this is one of the most basic tools And different pits, landing pits made of foam pieces where you can fly with your bike or your skateboard off of a ramp, and you don't need to land.
知情人士知道，他们知道，因为这是最基本的工具之一。还有不同的坑，由泡沫片制成的着陆坑，您可以在其中带着自行车或滑板飞离坡道，而无需着陆。
And you get to develop this sensation in the air.
你可以在空气中培养这种感觉。
When is it time to open up?
什么时候开放？
When is it time to change your shape?
什么时候该改变你的身材？
So since the proprioception is available all the time, is it the vestibular side of things that makes it a unique scenario?
那么，既然本体感觉一直可用，那么是不是前庭方面使它成为一个独特的场景呢？
Is it a certain gift or a capacity with the vestibular system?
它是某种天赋还是前庭系统的能力？
I wanted to ask you.
我想问你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
What would you think it is?
你认为它是什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If we're really thinking about time in the air, we have to talk about Tom Schaar, who's this phenom of a skateboarder who, I'm sure some people, almost everyone's heard of Tony Hawk.
如果我们真的在思考空中的时间，我们就必须谈论汤姆·沙尔（Tom Schaar），他是一位滑板天才，我相信有些人，几乎每个人都听说过托尼·霍克（Tony Hawk）。
If you took Tony and you combined him with Danny Way, who's probably easily one of the best vertical skateboarders ever, built the first mega ramps and did that, or Bob Burnquist, these guys are just huge innovators.
如果你把托尼和他和丹尼·韦（他可能是有史以来最好的垂直滑板运动员之一，建造了第一个巨型坡道并做到了）或者鲍勃·伯恩奎斯特结合起来，那么这些人就是巨大的创新者。
Tom, and a kid named Jimmy Wilkins, represent the latest generation of, but in my opinion anyway, the greatest vertical skateboarders that have ever lived because-
汤姆和一个名叫吉米·威尔金斯的孩子代表了最新一代，但无论如何，在我看来，他们是有史以来最伟大的垂直滑板运动员，因为——
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Hmm
嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of their ability to have so much control, speed, technical ability to do things that typically were only done on the street, like kick flips, heel flips, board slide, smacking the board on the way back into the ramp, no hands, so ollie-ing, not grabbing, doing all of these things bigger, faster, cleaner, but also in order of magnitude in every one of those dimensions.
他们有如此多的控制力、速度和技术能力来完成通常只能在街上完成的事情，比如踢腿空翻、脚后跟空翻、板滑行、在返回坡道时拍打板子，没有手，所以奥利-ing，而不是抓取，做所有这些事情更大、更快、更干净，而且在每一个维度上都是按数量级进行的。
And so if I think about Tom, I've seen Tom and Jimmy firsthand doing these things.
因此，如果我想到汤姆，我就会亲眼目睹汤姆和吉米做这些事情。
I think they go faster than everybody else.
我认为他们比其他人走得更快。
They pump harder, and they go faster into this.
他们更加努力，并且更快地投入其中。
So clearly, they're willing to spend more time in the air.
很明显，他们愿意花更多时间在空中。
Danny was like this.
丹尼就是这样的。
Danny and Bob Burnquist were willing to spend more time in the air, even if it was a simple trick.
丹尼和鲍勃·伯恩奎斯特愿意在空中花费更多时间，即使这是一个简单的技巧。
So it's not necessarily they're spinning around a lot.
所以他们不一定会经常转来转去。
People tend to overemphasize how many spins.
人们往往过分强调旋转次数。
It's a 900, a 12.
一个是900，一个是12。
There's something impressive to that, but what's far more impressive, to me anyway, would be Jimmy Wilkins.
这其中有一些令人印象深刻的事情，但无论如何，对我来说，更令人印象深刻的是吉米·威尔金斯。
His mom's a ballerina.
他的妈妈是一名芭蕾舞演员。
I think his father's an orchestra conductor.
我认为他父亲是一位管弦乐队指挥。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And when Jimmy does a handless, so we would call it an ollie on vert, where you don't smack the tail, it was like a handless air, his back knee touches the board, and he's guiding the board with his back knee.
当吉米做无手动作时，我们称之为垂直奥利，你不会拍打尾巴，就像无手空气一样，他的后膝盖接触板，他用后膝盖引导板。
He has the hip mobility to be able to do that.
他的髋部活动能力足以做到这一点。
He didn't train it.
他没有训练它。
It's just how he's built.
他就是这样建造的。
So I think it's a combination of things, but what makes it look so amazing is how fast he's going.
所以我认为这是多种因素的结合，但让它看起来如此惊人的是他的速度有多快。
And you don't realize it.
而你却没有意识到。
You just think how high he's going, but the height comes from the speed.
你只是想他能飞多高，但高度来自于速度。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Here, there are a few things-
在这里，有几点——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
...
...
inside, hiding-
里面，隐藏着——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
...
...
which I would love to unpack further.
我很想进一步解开它。
First is the speed and power, when it's mentioned in those fields, must be differentiated from the physiological speed and power.
首先是速度和力量，在这些领域提到速度和力量时，必须与生理速度和力量区分开来。
I remember the first time I read the book of Leonid Arkhipov, Professor Arkhipov, the legendary Soviet gymnastics trainer, and in his book, he mentions the vertical jumps of the Olympic Soviet male team.
我记得第一次读列昂尼德·阿尔希波夫的书时，苏联体操传奇教练阿尔希波夫教授在他的书中提到了苏联男队的垂直跳远项目。
I think the best was something that I did at the age of 13.
我认为最好的事情是我13岁时所做的事情。
But people are still under the impression-
但人们的印象仍然是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
...
...
that gymnasts have good jumps.
体操运动员有很好的跳跃能力。
They're rebounders.
他们是篮板手。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
They use the floor springs very well.
他们很好地使用了地弹簧。
Skateboard, similar.
滑板，类似。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Power-wise, strength-wise, nothing.
力量方面，力量方面，没什么。
There is nothing there.
那里什么也没有。
It's the willingness to go into that speed and to exit from the ramp, and the willingness comes from a confidence, which comes from a certain capacity to orient in space.
这是进入该速度并退出坡道的意愿，而这种意愿来自信心，而信心来自于一定的空间定向能力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
That's my suspicion.
这是我的怀疑。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, you're absolutely right.
不，你说得完全正确。
You nailed it, and Jimmy and Tom will hear this and appreciate.
你成功了，吉米和汤姆会听到并感激不已。
Historically, I left out one legend that isn't mentioned as often as Tony Hawk or Danny or Bob Burnquist, who is truly amazing, that they both sort of capture some of the essence of, and that's Chris Miller, who it's the same thing.
从历史上看，我遗漏了一个像托尼·霍克、丹尼或鲍勃·伯恩奎斯特那样不常被提及的传奇人物，他们真的很了不起，他们都抓住了一些本质，那就是克里斯·米勒，他是同一个人。
And none of these guys are physically very large.
而且这些家伙的体格都不是很大。
They're very slight.
它们非常轻微。
So they don't have a lot of body weight to throw around.
所以他们没有太多的体重可以扔掉。
But although Danny got strong, he broke his neck surfing when we were younger and came back with a thick neck and doing strength training.
尽管丹尼变得强壮，但当我们年轻的时候，他在冲浪时摔断了脖子，回来后脖子又粗又做力量训练。
He worked with Paul Chek.
他与 Paul Chek 一起工作。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And built himself back up to be really resilient because he was jumping the Great Wall of China, doing these kinds of things on broken ankles.
他让自己恢复了真正的韧性，因为他正在跳过中国的长城，在受伤的脚踝上做这些事情。
You need some resilience.
你需要一些韧性。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Multiple knee replacements.
多次膝关节置换。
He's a gladiator.
他是一名角斗士。
He's like Evel Knievel combined with a gladiator.
他就像埃维尔·克尼维尔与角斗士的结合。
But if you watch Tom Schaar or Jimmy, they don't look like they're throwing themselves into it, but that's why it looks so graceful and fast, but there is no hesitation.
但如果你看汤姆·沙尔或吉米，他们看起来并没有全身心投入其中，但这就是为什么它看起来如此优雅和快速，但没有任何犹豫。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
And the other part to explore in this comes from the father of biomechanics, Bernstein.
其中要探讨的另一部分来自生物力学之父伯恩斯坦。
The Soviet government, there is this legendary urban legend.
苏联政府，还有这个传奇的都市传说。
Maybe it's true, maybe not, but I believe it might be true.
也许这是真的，也许不是，但我相信这可能是真的。
The Soviet government brought him in to improve productivity in workers, and he was the father of motion capture.
苏联政府聘请他是为了提高工人的生产力，他是动作捕捉之父。
He's the man who came up with it.
他就是想出这个办法的人。
He put these globes and used an old-school camera to capture.
他放置了这些地球仪并使用老式相机进行捕捉。
The motion and study the biomechanics.
运动和研究生物力学。
And they brought him to this factory, and one employee, let's say, was producing 200 perfect pieces in an hour, and then the average was 150 pieces.
他们把他带到这家工厂，假设一名员工在一小时内生产 200 件完美的作品，然后平均是 150 件。
And they asked him, "Why?
他们问他：“为什么？
What's so special?" He put these sensors on the arm.
有什么特别的吗？”他把这些传感器放在手臂上。
Let's say it's with a hammer, working with a sledgehammer.
假设是用锤子，用大锤工作。
What did he discover?
他发现了什么？
There is more variety in the trajectories for the worker that gets more pieces perfectly done.
工人的工作轨迹更加多样化，可以完美地完成更多工件。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
More variety.
更多品种。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Correct.
正确。
Notice what is the variety, where it is.
注意品种是什么，它在哪里。
In the trajectory of the various joints, but the end result has less variety.
在轨迹上有各种关节，但最终结果却变化较少。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
It is more perfect.
就更加完美了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
That brings me back to the skateboarders.
这让我想起了滑板运动员。
I believe, from my experience, there is something like a meta movement, a movement that when it's developed correctly, it's capable of achieving the task in any condition.
我相信，根据我的经验，有一种类似元运动的东西，当它正确发展时，它能够在任何条件下完成任务。
This is the difference between a boxer's jab and a kung fu punch.
这就是拳击手的刺拳和功夫拳的区别。
How do you develop a boxer's jab?
如何练习拳击手的刺拳？
From the first day, somebody interrupts it.
从第一天起，就有人打断。
You're not throwing punches in the air or on the makiwara.
你不是在空中或在卷原上挥拳。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Someone parries it or they catch it.
有人格挡它，或者被他们抓住。
Yeah.
是的。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Someone parries it, moves it.
有人招架它，移动它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
You miss.
你错过了。
From the first day, you use it as a tool under these chaotic conditions.
从第一天起，你就在这些混乱的条件下使用它作为工具。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
So you develop it.
所以你开发它。
When you look at a boxer's punch, most people would be more impressed with the karate guy, with the kung fu guy, because on the air, it looks much crisper.
当你看到拳击手的出拳时，大多数人会对空手道、功夫的印象更深刻，因为在直播中，它看起来更清晰。
People don't appreciate boxing.
人们不欣赏拳击。
They appreciate Jackie Chan movies.
他们欣赏成龙的电影。
That is much easier, the visual side of this fighting, but it's not the real thing.
这场战斗的视觉效果要容易得多，但这不是真实的。
In this sense, it's not adaptable.
从这个意义上来说，它是不具有适应性的。
It's not alive.
它没有活着。
This is the Instagram reality.
这就是 Instagram 的现实。
Another problem.
另一个问题。
It has destroyed the real deal.
它破坏了真正的交易。
Now, I can put a camera on, and I can practice here for two hours until I get one good rep.
现在，我可以戴上相机，在这里练习两个小时，直到得到一个好的代表。
I capture it, and I put it online.
我捕捉它，并将其放在网上。
But when I meet these people, and it's time to move, no. It's not happening.
但当我遇到这些人，是时候搬家时，我却没有。这并没有发生。
So, in this sense, the skateboarder faces every time a fresh scenario, altogether different, and must be present and adapt it, the meta technique, to the situation.
因此，从这个意义上说，滑板手每次都会面临一个完全不同的新场景，并且必须呈现并适应它，即元技术，以适应情况。
It's not to be perfect in the way that you are like the discipline.
这并不是要像纪律那样完美。
Push hard and perfect it.
努力推动并完善它。
There is an aspect of it.
这是有一方面的。
The stabilization of performance must resist certain interruptions but must not ignore other interruptions.
性能的稳定性必须抵抗某些干扰，但不能忽视其他干扰。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It brings to mind a couple of important things.
它让我想起了一些重要的事情。
Right now, there are a lot of very, very impressive skateboarders, young and old, male and female.
现在，有很多非常非常令人印象深刻的滑板运动员，无论年轻还是年老，无论男性还是女性。
Some, just to mention, like this young girl, Reese Nelson, is just a phenom, and her style is great.
顺便提一下，有些人，比如这个年轻的女孩，里斯·尼尔森（Reese Nelson），就是一个天才，她的风格很棒。
And she's different than a lot of the young kids that are really flippity and go big.
她与许多轻浮、自大的孩子不同。
She's a vert skateboarder, and there are a lot of skateboarders now that can do things big, fast, flip, twist, lip tricks.
她是一名垂直滑板运动员，现在有很多滑板运动员可以做大动作、快速动作、翻转动作、扭转动作、嘴唇动作。
They can do all of that.
他们可以做到这一切。
On the street also, but there's some that just look like robots.
街上也有，但有些看起来就像机器人。
They're just technicians.
他们只是技术人员。
Because I was going to say that when, in a line where there's no break in the editing, that's where the real magic comes through, because they have to line things up properly trick to trick.
因为我想说，当在剪辑中没有中断的一行中，这才是真正的魔力出现的地方，因为他们必须把事情正确地排列起来。
It's not just like one hit, one hit.
这不仅仅是一击，一击。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Totally different athletes.
完全不同的运动员。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Totally different athletes.
完全不同的运动员。
But there are some vert skateboarders and some street skateboarders that they still just look robotic, and it's almost like it's too perfect and it's real.
但也有一些垂直滑板手和一些街头滑板手，他们看起来仍然只是机器人，而且几乎就像它太完美而且是真实的。
It's too perfect, but that's not what...
这太完美了，但事实并非如此……
The cool thing about skateboarding is that it rewards a bit of that, like you said, approaching things from different angles, but the endpoint still sticks.
滑板运动最酷的一点是，它会奖励一些东西，就像你说的，从不同的角度处理事物，但终点仍然存在。
And that's the real magic, and there's one other person I have to throw into the mix because growing up, this guy, he was like the real Evel Knievel, and he's still a legend.
这才是真正的魔力，我必须把另一个人也加入其中，因为在成长过程中，这个人就像真正的埃维尔·克尼维尔，而且他仍然是一个传奇。
He hasn't hit a bad injury, and so he actually brought himself back from paralysis.
他并没有受什么重伤，所以他居然从瘫痪状态中恢复了过来。
He can bike now and skateboard a bit.
他现在可以骑自行车，也可以玩滑板。
Great artist.
伟大的艺术家。
Amazing, super nice guy.
太棒了，超级好人。
His name is John Cardiel.
他的名字叫约翰·卡迪尔。
I was fortunate enough to know John a bit, and we're still friendly, although I haven't seen him in years.
我很幸运能够认识约翰一点，我们仍然很友好，尽管我已经很多年没有见到他了。
Sort of online, we're friendly.
有点在线，我们很友好。
But I got to see him firsthand years ago, and he was one of these people that it looked like everything was chaos around him, but he could go bigger and further, and he's the opposite of Antoine.
但几年前我亲眼见过他，他就是这样一种人，他周围的一切看起来都很混乱，但他可以走得更大更远，他和安托万相反。
It was like hands flailing and like the amazing thing was the speed, the energy, and the, I don't want to say imperfection because it was perfect in its variety of entry points.
就像双手挥舞一样，令人惊奇的是速度、能量，还有，我不想说不完美，因为它在各种切入点上都是完美的。
But he's still revered many, many years later and probably always will be.
但许多年后，他仍然受到人们的尊敬，而且可能永远如此。
And so there are certain things like skateboarding-
所以有一些事情，比如滑板——
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Beautiful
美丽
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
where it's still celebrated to not just be perfect, never miss, and these guys that I'm referring to, and Reese, and there are others, of course, it's like real poetry.
在那里，它仍然被庆祝为不仅仅是完美，永远不会错过，我提到的这些人，还有里斯，还有其他人，当然，这就像真正的诗歌。
But sometimes it's heavy metal poetry.
但有时它是重金属诗歌。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
It's beautiful, and also it breaks the aesthetic.
很漂亮，也很破坏审美。
The aesthetics and the performance, they walk hand in hand to a certain degree, but not beyond that.
美学和性能在某种程度上是齐头并进的，但也仅限于此。
And it's a slippery slope.
这是一个滑坡。
I warn people.
我警告人们。
Don't try to beautify your movements.
不要试图美化你的动作。
You will destroy them.
你会摧毁他们。
The beauty is a side effect.
美丽是一个副作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
It's an effect.
这是一个效果。
It shouldn't be a cause.
这不应该是一个原因。
This is what happened to Our asses.
这就是发生在我们屁股上的事。
Where does it come from?
它从哪里来？
It comes from a person who can jump high, who can sprint, who is productive, and it's attractive.
它来自于一个能跳高、能冲刺、富有成效的人，而且很有吸引力。
Now it's just the end result.
现在只是最终的结果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's like the exercise equivalent of plastic surgery.
这就像整形手术的锻炼。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Yeah.
是的。
And we found a way, a better way.
我们找到了一种方法，一种更好的方法。
We always find a better way to get what we want.
我们总是能找到更好的方法来得到我们想要的东西。
We want the aesthetics, so we found a way, training way, how to boost this, to create the shelf, the I don't know what, all this.
我们想要美观，所以我们找到了一种方法，培训方法，如何增强这一点，创建架子，我不知道是什么，所有这一切。
But this is a terrible mistake in many ways.
但这从很多方面来说都是一个可怕的错误。
When you look forward, you can develop the glutes, but don't disconnect them.
当你向前看时，你可以锻炼臀肌，但不要断开它们。
Functionality without function is, in this case, very costly.
在这种情况下，没有功能的功能是非常昂贵的。
And you start to get a pirated product that is eventually too good to be true in that sense.
你开始得到一个盗版产品，从这个意义上说，它最终好得令人难以置信。
What you mentioned is very interesting, and we start to separate.
你说的很有趣，我们开始分开了。
Also, you see it in tricks, tricking phenomenons, sports that started to develop.
此外，你还可以在技巧、欺骗现象、开始发展的运动中看到它。
Have you seen those kids who can do the juggle like football players, like soccer players?
你见过那些能像足球运动员一样杂耍的孩子吗？
They can do things that no soccer player can do, but they cannot play in the World Cup now.
他们可以做足球运动员做不到的事情，但他们现在不能参加世界杯了。
This shows you the difference.
这向您展示了差异。
One, I transform myself to the challenges that I'm presented.
第一，我改变自己以应对所面临的挑战。
Two, I transform the environment or the field to fit myself.
第二，我改变环境或领域以适应自己。
So in this case, I control all the parameters of my skateboarding, and it becomes perfect, yet robotic.
所以在这种情况下，我控制了滑板的所有参数，它变得完美，但机器人。
Diego Armando Maradona used to warm up with the shoelaces open.
迭戈·阿曼多·马拉多纳过去常常在热身时打开鞋带。
I used to love it, showing you the whole scenario is open.
我以前很喜欢它，向你展示整个场景是开放的。
I can still function.
我仍然可以发挥作用。
Fighting is a very important field in that sense for movement perspective.
从运动角度来看，格斗是一个非常重要的领域。
I'm not a fighter, but my interaction with fighting, I used to think it was so ugly, so ungraceful, that the movement quality was so low.
我不是格斗家，但我和格斗的互动，我以前觉得它是那么丑陋，那么不优雅，动作质量那么低。
They cannot do nothing well, these real fighters, MMA fighters.
他们什么都做不了，这些真正的战士，综合格斗战士。
They don't punch well.
他们打得不好。
They don't kick well.
他们踢得不好。
Nothing that they do is of high movement quality, and yet they'll kill you.
他们所做的一切都不是高品质的，但他们却会杀了你。
They solve the problem.
他们解决了问题。
They're not about perfecting.
他们不是为了完美。
They're not car mechanics.
他们不是汽车修理工。
They're drivers.
他们是司机。
And they will drive a Toyota and will defeat you with a Lamborghini.
他们会驾驶丰田，并会驾驶兰博基尼击败你。
This is what they do, and there are certain fields like that, and skateboarding comes from that because it's the street.
这就是他们所做的，并且有一些类似的领域，滑板运动就源于此，因为它是街道。
Everything always changes.
一切总是在变化。
The sidewalks, the heights, your mood, your state of being, the shoes.
人行道、高度、你的心情、你的状态、鞋子。
And there was grace in being able to navigate that chaos and become chaos, not to control it, to make an order off of it.
能够驾驭混乱并变得混乱，而不是控制它，并从中制定秩序，这是一种恩典。
So this is what you feel.
这就是你的感受。
Ah, it's not it, and I feel it a lot with many movement fields.
啊，不是这样的，很多运动场我都感觉到了。
Look, it's so beautiful.
你看，真漂亮。
And we even became desensitized for this beauty, which is good, because in the future, this will open the door again for real movement, real performance, real presence.
我们甚至对这种美变得麻木了，这很好，因为在未来，这将再次为真正的运动、真正的表演、真正的存在打开大门。
And then beauty is part of this equation, but it's not everything.
美是这个等式的一部分，但它并不是一切。
It's not all about it.
这还不是全部。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's almost like it becomes an emergent property of all the...
这几乎就像它成为所有......的新兴财产。
I don't want to call them imperfections because they're not.
我不想称它们为不完美，因为它们不是。
There's something that's real about what you're describing and what I'm attempting to describe, but I stumbled.
你所描述的和我试图描述的都是真实的，但我绊倒了。
I tried to provide examples.
我试图提供一些例子。
I'll provide some links.
我将提供一些链接。
But if you ever want to get a little bit scared, you want your amygdala activated a little bit vicariously, and see what real chaos upon chaos harnessed into something beautiful is, although I don't recommend actually doing it, is go onto YouTube and put GX1000 and watch these kids bomb hills in San Francisco.
但如果你想变得有点害怕，你希望你的杏仁核被激活一点，看看真正的混乱如何被利用成美丽的东西，尽管我不建议实际这样做，那就去 YouTube 上，放上 GX1000 并观看这些孩子在旧金山轰炸山。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
I've seen some.
我见过一些。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're yelling, "Get out of the way." They're not setting it up so that the street's clear.
他们大喊：“让开。”他们的设置并不是为了让街道变得干净。
It's super crazy hazardous, and one of those kids ended up dying years ago skitching, holding onto the back of a vehicle.
这是超级疯狂的危险，其中一个孩子几年前就因抓着车后部的溜溜而死。
But nonetheless, they're maniacs of a certain kind, and there's something about embracing the uncertainty.
但尽管如此，他们是某种疯狂的人，并且拥抱不确定性是有道理的。
I have to say, Ido, I did not expect we were going to go where we went today.
我不得不说，Ido，我没想到我们会走到今天去的地方。
But I would be remiss if I didn't say, and I take no credit for this, I really want to give you due credit, is that everything you just described about allowing for different entry points and coming to a place that nails it, that's you, and that's, in some sense, the best of podcasting.
但如果我不说的话，那就是我的失职了，我对此没有任何功劳，我真的想给你应有的功劳，就是你刚才描述的关于允许不同的切入点并到达一个能够钉住它的地方的一切，那就是你，从某种意义上说，这就是最好的播客。
We don't have a script.
我们没有剧本。
We didn't come in here, I didn't even show you what was on this sheet of paper.
我们没有进来，我什至没有给你看这张纸上写的是什么。
I looked at it a few times, made some adjustments.
我看了几遍，做了一些调整。
It's improv to some extent.
一定程度上是一种改进。
But it takes a special kind of person to be able to do what you do in the physical space, to be able to articulate about that, but also to pull in from so many areas of philosophy, psychology, physiology, neuroscience.
但需要一种特殊的人才能做到你在物理空间中所做的事情，能够清楚地表达这一点，而且还能够从哲学、心理学、生理学、神经科学的许多领域汲取知识。
By the way, your description of the eyes not as cameras, the reason I didn't yap about that is because you nailed it.
顺便说一句，你对眼睛的描述不是相机，我之所以没有对此大喊大叫，是因为你把它钉牢了。
I couldn't have given a lecture- ...
我不可能讲课——...
like that, truly.
确实如此。
And you're one of these people that when you speak, people learn, and it's transformed my experience.
你是这样的人之一，当你讲话时，人们会学习，这改变了我的经历。
I go up and down the stairs a couple times a night lately to check on my puppy, and I still can't go up or down stairs without thinking about the way I go up and down stairs.
最近，我每晚都要上下几次楼梯来检查我的小狗，但我仍然无法在不考虑上下楼梯方式的情况下上下楼梯。
Ever since we recorded in my house, gosh, probably three, maybe four years ago, five years ago.
自从我们在我家录制以来，天哪，可能是三年前，也许四年前，五年前。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In any case It's not an invasion into my consciousness.
无论如何，这并不是对我意识的入侵。
It's a real gift.
这是一份真正的礼物。
And I know people will come away with these gifts, and I really want to encourage people to think about leaning into these subtle ripples, the spaces.
我知道人们会带着这些礼物离开，我真的很想鼓励人们思考如何融入这些微妙的涟漪和空间。
This isn't just language.
这不仅仅是语言。
It's the magic that really makes life so much better.
这是真正让生活变得更加美好的魔力。
So I'm very grateful to you.
所以我非常感谢你。
I really, really am.
我真的真的是。
And please come back again.
请再次回来。
Ido Portal:
伊多门户：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Truly enjoyed that.
真的很享受那个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Ido Portal.
感谢您参加今天与 Ido Portal 的讨论。
To learn more about his work and to find links to the various things we discussed, please see the show note caption.
要了解有关他的工作的更多信息并找到我们讨论的各种内容的链接，请参阅节目注释标题。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的关注按钮来关注播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review, and you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您可以给我们留下五星级的评论，现在您可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客或嘉宾有意见，或者您希望我为 Huberman Lab 播客考虑的主题，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这本书是我花了五年多时间编写的，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验。
And it covers protocols for everything from sleep, to exercise, to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
它涵盖了从睡眠、锻炼、压力控制、与注意力和动机相关的各个方面的协议，当然，我还为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There you can find links to various vendors.
在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." And if you're not already following me on social media, I am hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 hubermanlab。
So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。
Again, it's hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
再说一遍，所有社交媒体平台上都是 hubermanlab。
And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.
我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。
All of that is available completely zero cost.
所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter and enter your email.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的菜单选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯并输入您的电子邮件即可。
And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Ido Portal.
再次感谢您参加今天与 Ido Portal 的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
"I want to date with rules," Carty says.
“我想按规则约会，”卡蒂说。
"Rules?" Rucke asks.
“规则？”鲁克问道。
This is the love story of real Hinge couple Carty and Rucke, written and read by me, Nicola Dinan.
这是真实的铰链夫妇卡蒂和鲁克的爱情故事，由我尼古拉·迪南撰写和阅读。
Listen to the free audiobook now.
立即收听免费有声读物。