Morgan Housel: Understand & Apply the Psychology of Money to Gain Greater Happiness

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

My guest today is Morgan Housel.

今天我的客人是摩根·豪塞尔。

Morgan Housel is a partner at the Collaborative Fund and an expert in private wealth generation and management.

摩根·豪塞尔 (Morgan Housel) 是合作基金的合伙人，也是私人财富生成和管理方面的专家。

He is also the author of the spectacularly bestselling book, "The Psychology of Money." And today we talk about the psychology of money.

他还是畅销书《金钱心理学》的作者。今天我们来谈谈金钱心理学。

We talk about how money can change your psychology.

我们讨论金钱如何改变你的心理。

We talk about how most people tend to lie at the extremes of either saving too much money or spending too much money.

我们谈论大多数人如何倾向于处于存太多钱或花太多钱的极端。

And we talk about how most people get it completely wrong when it comes to framing in our minds what money is, what its real value is in its ability to generate happiness within us.

我们讨论了大多数人在思考金钱是什么、金钱的真正价值在于它为我们带来幸福的能力时，完全错误的想法。

And no, I am not going to tell you, and Morgan is not going to tell you, that beyond a certain dollar amount, you don't increase your happiness.

不，我不会告诉你，摩根也不会告诉你，超过一定的金额，你的幸福感就不会增加。

Because, as we all know, money cannot buy happiness, but it can buffer stress.

因为，众所周知，金钱买不到幸福，但可以缓冲压力。

We acknowledge that from the outset.

我们从一开始就承认这一点。

And then Morgan goes on to explain that really what we're seeking when we talk about seeking wealth or money is freedom.

然后摩根继续解释说，当我们谈论寻求财富或金钱时，我们真正寻求的是自由。

Freedom is really about independence, and that if we are constantly in pursuit of wealth, well then, we are not truly free or independent.

自由实际上就是独立，如果我们不断地追求财富，那么我们就不是真正的自由或独立。

So today's discussion is as much about being happy, being free, feeling independent, feeling free of stress, as it is about this thing that we call money.

所以今天的讨论既是关于快乐、自由、感觉独立、感觉无压力，也是关于我们称之为金钱的东西。

So in other words, Morgan explains not just how to generate and manage monetary wealth, he explains that, but he also explains how to organize your life in and around this thing that we call career, the pursuit of wealth, and happiness.

换句话说，摩根不仅解释了如何产生和管理货币财富，他还解释了如何在我们称之为职业、追求财富和幸福的事物中和周围组织你的生活。

And I can think of few topics as important as today's topic.

我能想到很少有像今天的主题一样重要的主题。

I read Morgan's book, "The Psychology of Money," and I loved it.

我读了摩根的书《金钱心理学》，我很喜欢它。

I also love today's discussion because I'm certain that after it's done, you will realize that you've probably been thinking about wealth and money incorrectly in a number of ways, and you've probably been pursuing it incorrectly in a number of ways.

我也喜欢今天的讨论，因为我确信在讨论结束后，你会意识到你可能在很多方面错误地思考了财富和金钱，并且你可能一直在很多方面错误地追求它。

But by asking yourself certain probe questions that Morgan raises today and answering those questions, you can arrive in a place where your relationship to money and your pursuit of it really clearly matches your particular goals.

但是，通过问自己摩根今天提出的某些探索性问题并回答这些问题，您可以到达一个地方，您与金钱的关系以及您对金钱的追求确实清楚地符合您的特定目标。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。

In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。

Our first sponsor is Wealthfront.

我们的第一个赞助商是 Wealthfront。

I've been using Wealthfront for nearly a decade as my high-yield cash account, and I absolutely love it.

近十年来，我一直使用 Wea​​lthfront 作为我的高收益现金账户，我非常喜欢它。

Personally, I'm sometimes hesitant to invest money given the risks involved, so I often prefer to keep it in my Wealthfront cash account, where I'm able to earn 4.25% annual percentage yield on my deposits, and you can as well.

就我个人而言，考虑到所涉及的风险，我有时会犹豫是否要投资钱，所以我通常更愿意将钱存入我的 Wealthfront 现金账户，在那里我可以通过存款赚取 4.25% 的年收益率，你也可以。

With Wealthfront, you can earn 4.25% APY on your cash through partner banks until you're ready to either spend that money or invest it.

借助 Wealthfront，您可以通过合作银行以现金赚取 4.25% 的年化年利率，直到您准备好花掉这笔钱或进行投资。

With Wealthfront, you also get free same-day withdrawals to eligible accounts every day, even on weekends and holidays.

通过 Wealthfront，您还可以每天免费向符合条件的账户进行当日提款，即使在周末和节假日也是如此。

The 4.25% APY is not a promotional rate.

4.25% APY 并非促销利率。

There's no limit to what you can deposit and earn, and you can even get protection of up to $8 million through FDIC insurance provided through Wealthfront's partner banks.

您可以存款和赚取的金额没有限制，您甚至可以通过 Wealthfront 合作银行提供的 FDIC 保险获得高达 800 万美元的保护。

For same-day withdrawals, just start your withdrawal as late as 9:00 PM Eastern to one of over 550 eligible banks and credit unions to get it the same day.

对于当天提款，您只需在东部时间晚上 9:00 之前向超过 550 家符合条件的银行和信用合作社之一开始提款，即可在当天获得提款。

And it takes just a few minutes to transfer your cash from the cash account to any of Wealthfront's automated investing accounts when you're ready.

当您准备好时，只需几分钟即可将现金从现金账户转移到 Wealthfront 的任何自动投资账户。

There are already over a million people using Wealthfront to save more, earn more, and build long-term wealth.

已经有超过一百万人使用 Wea​​lthfront 来储蓄更多、赚更多钱并建立长期财富。

Earn 4.25% APY on your cash today.

今天您的现金可赚取 4.25% 年化收益。

If you'd like to try Wealthfront, go to wealthfront.com/huberman to receive a free $50 bonus with a $500 deposit into your first cash account.

如果您想尝试Wealthfront，请访问wealthfront.com/huberman，在您的第一个现金账户中存入500美元即可获得免费的50美元奖金。

That's wealthfront.com/huberman to get started now.

现在就开始吧：www.realityfront.com/huberman。

This has been a paid testimonial of Wealthfront.

这是 Wealthfront 的付费推荐。

Wealthfront brokerage isn't a bank.

Wealthfront 经纪公司不是银行。

The APY is subject to change.

APY 可能会发生变化。

For more information, see the episode description.

有关更多信息，请参阅剧集描述。

Today's episode is also brought to us by BetterHelp.

今天的节目也是由 BetterHelp 为我们带来的。

BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online.

BetterHelp 提供由持证治疗师完全在线进行的专业治疗。

Now, I've been doing weekly therapy for well over 30 years.

现在，我每周进行一次治疗已经有 30 多年了。

Initially, I didn't have a choice.

最初，我别无选择。

It was a condition of being allowed to stay in school.

这是被允许留在学校的一个条件。

But pretty soon I realized that therapy is an extremely important component to overall health.

但很快我就意识到治疗对于整体健康来说是极其重要的组成部分。

Now there are essentially three things that great therapy provides.

现在，伟大的治疗基本上可以提供三件事。

First of all, it provides good rapport with somebody that you can trust and talk to about any and all issues you want to.

首先，它可以与您可以信任的人建立良好的融洽关系，并可以与您讨论您想要讨论的任何问题。

Second of all, it can provide support in the form of emotional support or directed guidance.

其次，它可以以情感支持或定向指导的形式提供支持。

And third, expert therapy can provide useful insights.

第三，专家治疗可以提供有用的见解。

With BetterHelp, they make it very easy for you to find an expert therapist who you resonate with and can provide you those benefits that come through expert therapy.

通过 BetterHelp，您可以轻松找到与您产生共鸣的专家治疗师，并为您提供专家治疗所带来的好处。

Also, because BetterHelp allows for therapy to be done entirely online, it's very time efficient.

此外，由于 BetterHelp 允许完全在线进行治疗，因此非常省时。

It's very easy to fit into a busy schedule with no commuting to your therapist's office or sitting in a waiting room or looking for parking.

您可以轻松地适应繁忙的日程，无需通勤到治疗师办公室或坐在候诊室或寻找停车位。

None of that.

都不是。

It's all done online.

这一切都是在网上完成的。

If you'd like to try BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month.

如果您想尝试 BetterHelp，请访问 betterhelp.com/huberman，第一个月可享受 10% 的折扣。

Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman.

再说一次，这是 betterhelp.com/huberman。

And now for my discussion with Morgan Housel.

现在我与摩根·豪塞尔进行讨论。

Morgan Housel, welcome.

摩根豪塞尔，欢迎。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Thanks so much for having me.

非常感谢你邀请我。

Happy to be here.

很高兴来到这里。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm excited that you have a new book coming out next year about the art of spending money.

我很高兴你明年将出版一本关于花钱的艺术的新书。

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

That's right.

没错。

You got it.

你明白了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Today I want to talk about how to think about money.

今天我想谈谈如何看待金钱。

What is it?

它是什么？

How do we frame it within our historical context, meaning our personal historical context?

我们如何在我们的历史背景（即我们个人的历史背景）中构建它？

Because I think we all and each think about money a little bit differently.

因为我认为我们每个人对金钱的看法都有点不同。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And then talk about what is the best use, or in some cases, not use of money.

然后谈谈什么是最好的用途，或者在某些情况下，不该用钱。

This is a topic that could go in any number of different directions, but my goal here is that people will get a better understanding of what money is, why they work for it, and really how to make it ...

这个话题可以有很多不同的方向，但我的目标是让人们更好地理解金钱是什么，为什么他们为金钱而工作，以及如何真正赚钱......

a true asset to their lives, as opposed to something that is forever out of reach in terms of amount or what they expect it to bring them.

这是他们生活中真正的资产，而不是从数量上或他们期望给他们带来的东西上永远遥不可及的东西。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Great.

太棒了。

Looking forward to it.

期待它。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Great.

太棒了。

So your book starts off with this notion that people are not crazy.

所以你的书一开始就认为人们并不疯狂。

It's, in fact, the title of the chapter.

事实上，这就是本章的标题。

Does that mean that people are rational about money?

这是否意味着人们对金钱是理性的？

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Oh, I think it's very different.

哦，我认为这是非常不同的。

What I meant by no one is crazy is that it is so easy for people to look around at society at how other people are spending their money, and saving their money, and investing their money, and say, "Why the hell would anybody do that?

我所说的没有人疯狂的意思是，人们很容易环顾社会，看看其他人如何花钱、如何存钱、如何投资，然后说：“到底为什么有人会这么做？

Why would you waste your money on this?

你为什么要把钱浪费在这个上面？

Why would you hoard your money like that?" And I actually think if you peel back the onion layer of what's going on in those people's lives, no one is really that crazy with how they spend their money or save their money.

你为什么要这样存钱呢？”事实上，我认为，如果你剥开这些人生活中发生的事情的洋葱层，就会发现没有人对他们花钱或存钱的方式真的那么疯狂。

It makes sense to them in that moment.

在那一刻，这对他们来说是有意义的。

My brother-in-law is a social worker.

我的姐夫是一名社会工作者。

He works with very disadvantaged kids, kids who are abused at home, who don't have homes.

他与非常弱势的孩子一起工作，这些孩子在家里受到虐待，没有家。

And a lot of those kids, not surprisingly, do very poorly at school.

毫不奇怪，其中很多孩子在学校的表现都很差。

They misbehave.

他们行为不端。

They get in fights.

他们打架。

They don't go to school.

他们不去学校。

And it is so common for those kids that the teacher will look at those kids and say, "Why are you acting like this?

对于这些孩子来说，这种情况很常见，以至于老师会看着这些孩子说：“你们为什么这样做？

Why don't you do the right thing?

你为什么不做正确的事呢？

It's so obvious." And he says, "There's a phrase in social work, all behavior makes sense with enough information, that if you look at what those kids are dealing with in life, it would all make sense to you why they are misbehaving at school." And I think that's a powerful idea for a lot of things in life, that all behavior makes sense with enough information.

太明显了。”他说，“社会工作中有一句话，只要有足够的信息，所有的行为都是有意义的，如果你看看那些孩子在生活中所经历的事情，你就会明白为什么他们在学校行为不端。”我认为这对生活中的很多事情来说都是一个强有力的想法，只要有足够的信息，所有的行为都是有意义的。

And you can really apply it to money, too, that you could easily tie how I spend my money today and save my money today based off of the experience that I've had in life, how I was raised, where I was raised, how old I am, the generation I was born into, all things that are outside of my control.

你也可以把它应用到金钱上，你可以很容易地将我今天如何花钱和如何存钱联系起来，这些都是基于我的生活经历，我是如何长大的，我在哪里长大的，我多大了，我出生在哪一代，所有这些都是我无法控制的事情。

And it is very common to look at people who are spending a ton of money.

人们花费大量金钱是很常见的。

Well, there's a story behind that.

嗯，这背后有一个故事。

They're spending a ton of money because for a lot of them, they want some sort of attention.

他们花了很多钱，因为对于他们中的很多人来说，他们想要某种关注。

They're trying to get people's attention.

他们试图引起人们的注意。

Maybe some times they're trying to cover up a hole, or maybe they are actually are really enjoying it.

也许有时他们试图掩盖一个漏洞，或者也许他们实际上真的很享受它。

People who are hoarding a lot of money, there's a story there, too.

囤积大量金钱的人，也有一个故事。

They experienced something that's causing them to do that.

他们经历过一些事情导致他们这样做。

And I think that this is really important for two reasons.

我认为这非常重要，原因有两个。

One, it forces you to realize that there is not one right way to manage money, to save it, to spend it.

第一，它迫使你认识到，管理金钱、储蓄和消费并没有一种正确的方法。

You got to figure out what works for you, and what works for me might not work for you.

你必须弄清楚什么对你有用，对我有用的东西可能不适合你。

There's not one answer, and it's not like math.

没有一个答案，这不像数学。

In math, two plus two equals four for everybody, and in money, it's like you got to figure it out for yourself.

在数学中，二加二对每个人来说都等于四，而在金钱中，你必须自己算出来。

It's almost like your taste in food or your taste in music.

这几乎就像你对食物的品味或对音乐的品味。

Just find out what you like and do that.

只要找出你喜欢什么，然后去做就可以了。

The other thing is, I think you become less cynical about other people's decisions, and you don't spend all your day saying, "Look at that idiot spending their money in a stupid way." You just no, it's just you got to figure it out for yourself.

另一件事是，我认为你对其他人的决定不再那么愤世嫉俗，你不会整天说：“看看那个白痴以愚蠢的方式花钱。”你只是不，只是你必须自己弄清楚。

And I think you become happier when you're a little less cynical about how other people are doing it.

我认为，当你对其他人的做法不再那么愤世嫉俗时，你会变得更快乐。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

For most people, including myself, the whole notion of money and safety are very closely linked.

对于大多数人来说，包括我自己，金钱和安全的整个概念是紧密相连的。

Do we have enough resources to take care of ourselves, plus a bit extra, one hopes?

我们是否有足够的资源来照顾自己，还希望有一点额外的资源？

I guess I would include in taking care of oneself buffering one's anxiety about not having enough money.

我想我会在照顾自己的同时缓解因没有足够的钱而产生的焦虑。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's part of the psychological care.

这是心理护理的一部分。

And also taking care of others that we might be responsible for or simply want to take care of.

还要照顾我们可能负责或只是想照顾的其他人。

That's very closely linked to notions of how much and what type of education to get, right?

这与接受多少教育和接受何种类型的教育的概念密切相关，对吗？

I think everyone presumably at some point goes through the mental gymnastics of is it worth it to get an advanced degree?

我想每个人在某个时候都会经历这样的心理体操：获得高级学位是否值得？

What major should I focus on?

我应该专注于什么专业？

Are there any jobs there?

那里有工作吗？

When I went to school to be a neuroscientist, a cardiologist, a friend of our family, said, "Why would you go into neuroscience?

当我上学成为一名神经科学家时，我们家的一位朋友、一位心脏病专家对我说：“你为什么要进入神经科学领域？

There are no jobs in that." There were plenty of jobs in neuroscience, and still are.

那里没有工作机会。”神经科学领域有很多工作机会，现在仍然如此。

I wouldn't say that most of them are high-paying jobs.

我不会说其中大多数都是高薪工作。

So, we know that higher education doesn't always scale with higher income.

所以，我们知道高等教育并不总是随着收入的增加而扩大。

As we grow up and move into the world, we're thinking about how to integrate all these different things, what we want to do because it's interesting versus what will make us money.

当我们长大并进入这个世界时，我们正在考虑如何整合所有这些不同的事物，我们想做的事情是因为它很有趣，而不是能让我们赚钱的事情。

In your experience and observation and in writing your book, is there some sort of mental path to cut through these different considerations?

在你的经验和观察以及写书的过程中，是否有某种思维路径可以消除这些不同的考虑？

When we talk about money and wealth, what should we really take into consideration?

当我们谈论金钱和财富时，我们真正应该考虑什么？

Is there some sort of checklist?

有某种清单吗？

It becomes a pretty vast space.

它变成了一个相当广阔的空间。

I believe that you get the best workout of yourself, in terms of going after things that you're really interested in.

我相信，在追求自己真正感兴趣的事情方面，你会得到最好的锻炼。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But there may not be money in things that are highly interesting to somebody.

但对于某人来说非常感兴趣的事情可能不会赚钱。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

I asked Daniel Kahneman a very similar question about 10 years ago.

大约十年前，我问过丹尼尔·卡尼曼一个非常类似的问题。

Kahneman is a world-renowned psychologist, won the Nobel Prize in economics, passed away a year or two ago, and he said the trait that you need to do well with money over time, no matter who you are, is a well-calibrated sense of your future regret.

卡尼曼是一位世界著名的心理学家，获得了诺贝尔经济学奖，一两年前去世了。他说，无论你是谁，随着时间的推移，你需要在金钱上做得很好，这是一种对未来遗憾的良好校准感。

What are you going to end up regretting in the past?

过去的事你会后悔什么？

And I think at the highest level, that's how you should base all of your financial decisions is, will I regret spending this or not spending this?

我认为在最高层面上，这就是你所有财务决策的基础，我会后悔花这笔钱还是不花这笔钱？

Will I regret making or not making this investment?

我会后悔做还是不做这项投资？

Now, much easier said than done.

现在，说起来容易做起来难。

I think most people do not fully understand their own sense of regret, what they're likely to look back and say, "I wish I had not have done this." The other thing is that it changes over the course of your life.

我认为大多数人并不完全理解自己的遗憾感，他们可能会在回顾时说：“我希望我没有这样做。”另一件事是它会随着你的一生而改变。

I'll give you a perfect example.

我会给你一个完美的例子。

I'm a big saver, have been for my entire adult life.

我是一个大储蓄者，在我的整个成年生活中都是如此。

Heaven forbid, if I were on my deathbed tomorrow, would I regret the vacations I didn't take, the cars I didn't buy?

天哪，如果我明天就临终了，我会后悔没有休假、没有买车吗？

The answer right now is absolutely not.

现在的答案是绝对不会。

I would feel so good knowing that my wife and kids are going to be okay.

知道我的妻子和孩子会没事，我会感觉很好。

So I would take so much pleasure in knowing that I did not spend that money.

因此，当我知道我没有花那笔钱时，我会非常高兴。

I saved it for their protection.

我为了保护他们而保存了它。

Will I still feel that way if I'm 80 years old?

如果我80岁了，我还会有这样的感觉吗？

Then maybe I will look back and say, "I should've lived a little bit more.

然后也许我会回过头来说：“我应该活得更久一些。

I should've given my money away while I could've seen it being given away." So it changes throughout the course of your life, but I think if you're always thinking through the lens of what am I going to regret, it's never about YOLO or about like, oh, save today so you can have it for tomorrow.

当我可以看到钱被捐出去时，我就应该把钱捐出去。”所以它会在你的一生中发生变化，但我认为，如果你总是从我会后悔的角度思考，那么它就不是关于 YOLO 或类似，哦，保存今天，以便你明天可以拥有它。

I think that's too simple to think about it.

我认为这太简单了，无法思考。

You have to know what you're going to regret in the future and look back.

你必须知道自己将来会后悔什么，并在回头看的时候。

And back to everyone's different, what I will regret might be very different from what you will regret Very interesting story from Jeff Bezos.

回到每个人的不同，我会后悔的事情可能与你会后悔的事情非常不同杰夫·贝佐斯的非常有趣的故事。

He talked about when he started Amazon back in, I think it was 1994, the reason he started it, and he knew that there was very little chance it was going to work when he first started it.

他谈到了他当年创办亚马逊的时候，我想那是 1994 年，这是他创办亚马逊的原因，他知道当他第一次创办亚马逊时，它成功的机会很小。

But he said, "If I do not try this, I will regret it, and if I try it and it fails, I won't regret that." That's an amazing story that talks about his entrepreneurial spirit.

但他说，“如果我不尝试这个，我会后悔，如果我尝试了但失败了，我也不会后悔。”这是一个关于他的创业精神的精彩故事。

The other thing when I first heard that story is bless him for thinking that.

当我第一次听到这个故事时，另一件事是祝福他有这样的想法。

I do not have that personality.

我没有那样的性格。

If I devoted my entire life and my family's money and my parents' money to a startup and it failed, I might regret that.

如果我把我的一生、我家人的钱和我父母的钱都投入到一家初创公司而它失败了，我可能会后悔。

I admire and I'm grateful for the people who do not have that vision as he does, made the world better, but everyone's sense of regret is going to be a little bit different.

我钦佩并感谢那些没有像他那样有远见的人，让世界变得更美好，但每个人的遗憾感都会有所不同。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And sometimes this sense of what one is likely to regret if we have access to it at all, because it sounds like we're not very good at anticipating this, as Kahneman pointed out.

有时，如果我们能够接触到它，人们可能会后悔，因为正如卡尼曼指出的那样，因为听起来我们不太擅长预测这一点。

Most people lack a well-calibrated sense of future regret.

大多数人缺乏对未来后悔的良好认识。

That's going to change over time, so it's dynamic.

这会随着时间的推移而改变，所以它是动态的。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And here we're talking about investing in two-year or four-year degrees.

在这里，我们讨论的是投资两年制或四年制学位。

We're talking about investing in one's time, that is, in a particular profession.

我们谈论的是投资一个人的时间，即投资于一个特定的职业。

And I think we come up with all these explanations post hoc about, "Well, I went to that company, I went into that line of work, I spent 10 years there," or, "The startup failed, but I learned a valuable lesson that then really supported me in a future endeavor." And so we rationalize our poor choices from the past-

我认为我们事后会提出所有这些解释，“嗯，我去了那家公司，我从事了那项工作，我在那里呆了 10 年，”或者，“初创公司失败了，但我学到了宝贵的教训，这些教训真正支持了我未来的努力。”所以我们为过去的错误选择合理化——

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

in ways that allow us to connect the dots, to sort of steal from the famous Steve Jobs speech.

使我们能够将各个点联系起来，有点借鉴史蒂夫·乔布斯著名的演讲。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And yet all of this really says that we are very poor at placing our current experience and our past experience into any kind of future projection of ourselves.

然而，所有这些确实表明我们非常不善于将我们当前的经验和过去的经验融入到我们自己的任何未来预测中。

You talk a little bit about this in your book, and this really sunk in for me in a major way, that we don't really know or anticipate how we are likely to change as we get older.

你在书中谈到了这一点，这在很大程度上让我明白了，我们并不真正知道或预测随着年龄的增长我们可能会如何改变。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Right.

对。

So there's a thing in psychology called the end of history illusion, which means that you are very aware of how much you've changed in the last 20 years.

所以心理学中有一种东西叫做历史终结幻觉，这意味着你非常清楚自己在过去20年里发生了多大的变化。

You are maybe smarter, wiser.

你也许更聪明、更聪明。

Your beliefs about things in life have evolved, and that's true for most people.

你对生活中事物的信念已经演变，对于大多数人来说都是如此。

But most people, if you actually dig into it, they think if you say, "Who will you be in 20 years from now?" They think they'll roughly be the same person they are today.

但大多数人，如果你真正深入研究的话，他们会想，如果你说：“20年后你会是谁？”他们认为他们将大致成为今天的同一个人。

There's always this belief that I have grown so much in the past, but I'm done growing, because it's hard to project how you're going to be different in the future.

人们总是相信我过去已经成长了很多，但我已经不再成长了，因为很难预测你将来会如何与众不同。

A lot of that is if I tell myself 20 years from now, I'll have very different beliefs about politics, whatever it might be.

其中很多是，如果我告诉自己 20 年后，我将对政治有非常不同的信念，无论它是什么。

What I'm effectively admitting is what I believe today is wrong, and you don't want to believe that.

我实际上承认的是我今天认为是错误的，而你不想相信这一点。

Everyone wants to wake up and look in the mirror and say, "What I believe today is the right thing." It's just like a self-justification of your own beliefs to makes it easier to go about the day, is what I believe right now is the right thing.

每个人都想醒来后照镜子说：“我今天所相信的事情是正确的。”这就像对自己信念的自我辩护，让这一天过得更轻松，我认为现在是正确的事情。

And maybe you have a little bit of doubt around the edges, but most of it is what I believe is true.

也许你有一点怀疑，但我相信大部分都是真的。

So you don't want to believe that you're going to adjust and adapt those beliefs over time.

所以你不想相信你会随着时间的推移调整和适应这些信念。

So it becomes difficult to take a truly long-term view and make a decision today that is going to be something that you're not going to regret in the future.

因此，今天很难采取真正的长远眼光并做出一个让你将来不会后悔的决定。

As I've always framed this, I think the only antidote to this, of trying to get around this problem, is avoiding the extreme ends of financial planning, and a lot of people are on the extreme ends.

正如我一直以来所阐述的那样，我认为解决这个问题的唯一解药，就是避免财务规划的极端，而很多人都处于极端。

Like on one end, you have the FIRE movement, these people who save 90% of their income and they want to retire at 28, that kind of thing.

就像一方面，你有 FIRE 运动，这些人把 90% 的收入存起来，他们想在 28 岁退休，诸如此类的事情。

And on the other hand, you have the YOLO crypto traders who are like, "Doesn't matter, just throw it all down and let's see what happens." Those extreme ends are what you are most likely to regret at some point in the future.

另一方面，YOLO 加密货币交易者会说，“没关系，把一切都扔掉，让我们看看会发生什么。”这些极端的结果是你在未来某个时刻最有可能后悔的事情。

And the crypto, look, I think a lot of those people are young and they have time to make up for their mistakes.

至于加密货币，我认为很多人都很年轻，他们有时间弥补他们的错误。

I did a lot of really dumb things with my money in my teens and 20s.

我在十几岁和二十多岁的时候用我的钱做了很多非常愚蠢的事情。

But I think a lot of them, that's where they are most likely to look back.

但我认为他们中的很多人最有可能回顾过去。

It's one thing to lose a lot of money in your 20s and say, "Ah, it doesn't really matter." But then when you're 48 and trying to put your kids through college, that's when you're going to look back and be like, "I wish I hadn't done something like that." So those extreme ends have the highest odds of future regret.

在二十多岁的时候失去很多钱并说“啊，这并不重要”是一回事。但当你 48 岁的时候，努力让你的孩子读完大学时，你会回想起来，“我希望我没有做那样的事情。”因此，那些极端的行为未来后悔的可能性最高。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In order to, as I described it before, carve a path through this for people, I'm wondering if people generally fall into either one or the other category of, as you described with Bezos, not wanting to regret not having done something.

正如我之前所描述的，为了为人们开辟一条道路，我想知道人们是否通常属于一类或另一类，正如您与贝佐斯所描述的那样，不想为没有做某事而后悔。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay, so I think of that in sort of pseudo-neurobiological terms as being drawn toward the possible dopaminergic or other rewards of having succeeded.

好吧，我认为用伪神经生物学术语来说，这是被成功的可能的多巴胺能或其他奖励所吸引。

Really, that's what he's envisioning, presumably, is the pain of having not had and given himself the opportunity to succeed.

确实，这大概就是他所设想的，是没有拥有并给自己成功机会的痛苦。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay?

好吧？

That's one way to put it.

这是一种说法。

And then the other path would be just avoiding the pain of loss.

那么另一条路就是避免失去的痛苦。

And there are a lot of studies, I think Kahneman did some of them, in fact, that people work a lot harder to avoid the pain of loss-

有很多研究，我认为卡尼曼做了其中一些研究，事实上，人们更加努力地工作以避免失去的痛苦 -

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

than to gain something.

而不是为了获得一些东西。

But in thinking about the people I know across various wealth scales and different ages, it seems that some people are just more motivated to try new things because they like doing new things.

但想想我所认识的不同财富规模和不同年龄的人，似乎有些人更有动力去尝试新事物，因为他们喜欢做新事物。

They like the sense of reward that can come from doing those things, and so it really is painful for them to stay in the same place.

他们喜欢做这些事情所带来的奖励感，所以留在同一个地方对他们来说确实很痛苦。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah, absolutely.

是的，绝对是。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Financially or otherwise.

无论是经济上还是其他方面。

Other people, they like the sure thing.

其他人，他们喜欢确定的事情。

They like reliability.

他们喜欢可靠性。

And you can see this in a lot of domains of their life.

你可以在他们生活的很多领域看到这一点。

I don't want to extrapolate this to all aspects of their life, but some people like dogs that the entire breed is known for rarely ever having bitten somebody.

我不想将这一点推断到他们生活的各个方面，但有些人喜欢狗，整个品种都以很少咬人而闻名。

Other people like to raise Cane Corsos, and while I'm sure there's some really nice, loving Cane Corsos out there, they occasionally bite, and when they bite, it's serious.

其他人喜欢饲养卡斯罗犬，虽然我确信那里有一些非常友善、可爱的卡斯罗犬，但它们偶尔会咬人，而且当它们咬人时，情况会很严重。

So are we really talking about a propensity for risk versus safety?

那么我们真的在谈论风险倾向与安全倾向吗？

And do you think that people fall into more or less two camps on that?

你认为人们在这个问题上或多或少分为两个阵营吗？

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

I think it's true that some people would go nuts if they took the safe path.

我认为，如果有些人选择了安全的道路，他们确实会发疯。

And even if they're doing it in the name of like, "Oh, I don't want to regret this," but they need some sort of variability in their life.

即使他们以“哦，我不想后悔”的名义这样做，但他们的生活需要某种变化。

They need to go out and do things.

他们需要出去做事。

The other element is we don't know the paths that we didn't take.

另一个因素是我们不知道我们没有走过的路。

And I'll give you a personal example of this.

我将给你举一个个人的例子。

20 years ago, I was enrolled in Pepperdine, but I didn't go.

20年前，我被佩珀代因大学录取，但我没有去。

I was enrolled and just at the last second I transferred.

我被录取了，就在最后一刻我转学了。

So I never actually attended, but I was enrolled.

所以我从未真正参加过，但我被录取了。

And of course, I think, "What would my life have been if I had gone there?" 'Cause the school that I transferred to, I met my wife, started my career there, and it's easy for me to say, "God, I'm so glad I did not go there," because my life would not be what it is today.

当然，我想，“如果我去了那里，我的生活会怎样？”因为我转学到的学校，我遇到了我的妻子，在那里开始了我的职业生涯，我很容易说，“上帝，我很高兴我没有去那里，”因为我的生活不会是今天的样子。

But the truth is, maybe it would've been fine.

但事实是，也许这样就好了。

Maybe it would've been better.

也许会更好。

You never know the paths that you didn't take, where they're going to end up.

你永远不知道那些你没有走过的路，它们最终会到达哪里。

So back to Kahneman's point, a well-calibrated sense of your future regret, but nobody knows the paths that they didn't take and where those would go.

回到卡尼曼的观点，对你未来的遗憾有一个精心校准的感觉，但没有人知道他们没有走的路以及这些路会去哪里。

So, it just makes it very difficult to have any idea of which path you should be on in that end.

所以，这让你很难知道最终你应该走哪条路。

So, I think just avoiding those two camps of the extreme ends of it.

所以，我认为只要避免这两个极端的阵营就可以了。

But again, as I said earlier, I think that is actually more than half of people are on some sort of extreme end of spending way more than they can or saving way more than they need to.

但正如我之前所说，我认为实际上有超过一半的人处于某种极端状态，他们的支出超出了他们的能力，或者储蓄超出了他们的需要。

There's a fat tail distribution in how people manage their money, and so that's quite a few people.

人们管理资金的方式存在肥尾分布，所以这样的人相当多。

And I think it's one of the reasons why we live in a society that is richer than it's ever been by far, not just at the top, but at the median level.

我认为这就是为什么我们生活在一个比以往任何时候都更加富裕的社会的原因之一，不仅是在顶层，而且在中层水平。

The average family is richer than they've ever been.

普通家庭比以往任何时候都更加富有。

But because we manage it in such extreme ways, is it making people happier?

但因为我们以如此极端的方式管理它，它会让人们更快乐吗？

Are we happier today than we were 40 years ago or 100 years ago?

今天的我们比 40 年前或 100 年前更幸福吗？

That there's not a ton of evidence for.

没有大量证据证明这一点。

Because managing it in a way that's actually going to make you happier and reduce your regret and live a more meaningful life is much harder than earning it and accumulating it over time.

因为以一种实际上能让你更快乐、减少遗憾、过更有意义的生活的方式来管理它，比赚取并随着时间的推移积累它要困难得多。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

When I was growing up, you would see a mixture of newer cars, including some very nice cars, as well as a lot of older, kind of beaten up cars driving around.

在我成长的过程中，你会看到各种较新的汽车，包括一些非常好的汽车，以及许多老式的、破旧的汽车。

Nowadays, of course, this varies by area.

当然，如今，这因地区而异。

It's actually rare to see really old beat-up cars.

实际上很少见到真正破旧的汽车。

You see some really nice old cars that have been restored, but that's a different thing altogether.

你会看到一些非常漂亮的旧车已经被修复，但那完全是另一回事。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I assume this is because of credit, that people can now buy things on credit.

我认为这是因为信用，人们现在可以信用购买东西。

How has the ability to purchase things on credit changed the way that we think about money generally?

赊购的能力如何改变了我们对金钱的普遍看法？

I know people who have tremendous credit card debt, and I think are now at the point where they figure that they're never going to pay it off.

我认识一些背负巨额信用卡债务的人，我认为他们现在已经认为自己永远无法还清债务了。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They're just going to probably not live long enough to pay it off, and they're sort of comfortable with that, which is kind of scary to see.

他们可能活不了多久来还清债务，但他们对此感到满意，这有点令人恐惧。

And some of them aren't even particularly big spenders.

其中一些人甚至不是特别花钱的人。

They just accrued this debt early enough, and they can't seem to get out from the trap of that.

他们只是很早就积累了这笔债务，而且他们似乎无法摆脱这个陷阱。

I know other people who, like myself, pay off my credit card bill every month.

我认识其他人，像我一样，每个月还清我的信用卡账单。

I hate the whatever it is, 18% plus interest.

我讨厌不管它是什么，18% 加利息。

Even if I'm one day late, I'm like, "Ah!" And at the same time, I'm not somebody who likes to purchase many things.

即使我迟到了一天，我也会说：“啊！”同时，我也不是一个喜欢买很多东西的人。

I'm not a things guy.

我不是一个喜欢搞事情的人。

I own one or two watches, one truck.

我拥有一两块手表，一辆卡车。

I'm just not a things guy.

我只是不是一个喜欢搞事情的人。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But I certainly have my own psychological relationship with money that after talking to you today, I'm sure I'm going to realize is not optimized either.

但我确实与金钱有自己的心理关系，今天与您交谈后，我确信我会意识到这种关系也没有得到优化。

Right?

正确的？

So it's easy to point fingers at people in these different groups.

因此，很容易将矛头指向这些不同群体的人。

But going back to this issue of credit-

但回到信用问题——

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

how has the ability to own and use things that we don't really truly own, basically to exceed our income level in terms of the number and type of luxuries that we can enjoy, change the way that people think about money and use money?

如何拥有和使用我们并不真正拥有的东西，基本上在我们可以享受的奢侈品的数量和类型方面超过我们的收入水平，改变人们思考金钱和使用金钱的方式？

Because today's discussion in your book, we're talking about money as if it's something that we have.

因为今天在你的书中的讨论，我们谈论金钱，就好像它是我们拥有的东西一样。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But credit basically is living outside your means.

但信用基本上就是量入为出。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

By definition.

根据定义。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

I think the knee-jerk response would be, oh, it helps you pull your consumption forward so you can have more toys that you would not have had in a different era.

我认为下意识的反应是，哦，它可以帮助你推动消费，这样你就可以拥有更多在不同时代不会有的玩具。

And I actually think for a lot of people, it's the opposite.

事实上，我认为对于很多人来说，情况恰恰相反。

That there are a lot of people that have holes in their life, challenges in their life, and a very easy answer if you're not happy with your life and you have a hole you're trying to fill is, well, if I had more money, this problem would go away.

很多人的生活中都有漏洞，生活中充满挑战，如果你对自己的生活不满意并且你有一个你想要填补的漏洞，那么一个非常简单的答案是，好吧，如果我有更多的钱，这个问题就会消失。

And in previous generations, previous decades, you could not just go out and have a ton of more money.

在前几代人、前几十年里，你不可能仅仅出去就能赚到很多钱。

You earned your money from your paycheck.

你的钱是从你的薪水中赚来的。

That was what you had.

这就是你所拥有的。

Today, it makes it easier to try to fill that hole in your life with money.

如今，用金钱来填补生活中的空缺变得更加容易。

And so you can keep on getting more and more and more, and for a lot of people, they will wake up and say, "Oh, if only I had that car, my life would be better." And they go buy that car, and they still feel the same.

所以你可以继续获得越来越多的东西，对于很多人来说，他们会醒来说：“哦，如果我有那辆车，我的生活会更好。”他们去买那辆车，但感觉还是一样。

So then it's like, "Ah, you know what?

然后就像是，“啊，你知道吗？

If I had that car and that watch, then I'd feel better." They get the watch, they feel the same.

如果我有那辆车和那块手表，那么我会感觉更好。”他们拿到手表后，也有同样的感觉。

"Ah, you know what's missing?

“啊，你知道缺少什么吗？

A house.

一栋房子。

I got to go get that fancy house." It's this continuous spiral, and since you can finance all of that, it makes it easier and easier to go on that spiral.

我得去买那栋漂亮的房子。”这是一个持续的螺旋式上升，而且由于你可以为所有这些提供资金，因此它使这种螺旋式上升变得越来越容易。

Will Smith made this incredible realization I loved from his biography.

威尔·史密斯从他的传记中实现了我喜欢的这一令人难以置信的认识。

He said when he was poor and depressed, he had hope because he could tell himself, "One day I'm going to have money and all these problems will go away." And then when he was rich and depressed, he was still depressed, and he lost all of his hope because he had more money than he could ever spend, so he could not tell himself, "If only I had more money, these problems would go away." And so for a lot of people, the availability of credit is giving them, I think, a false sense of hope that's keeping them on this hamster wheel of, if only I had this bigger house, this nicer car, all these problems that I wake up with every morning would go away.

他说，当他贫穷和沮丧时，他有希望，因为他可以告诉自己，“有一天我会有钱，所有这些问题都会消失。”然后当他富有而沮丧时，他仍然很沮丧，他失去了所有的希望，因为他的钱多得花不完，所以他不能告诉自己，“如果我有更多的钱，这些问题就会消失。”因此，我认为，对于很多人来说，信贷的可用性给了他们一种错误的希望感，这种希望感让他们一直在仓鼠轮子上，如果我有更大的房子，这辆更好的汽车，我每天早上醒来时遇到的所有这些问题都会消失。

And it keeps you on that path.

它会让你走在这条路上。

Which I think if you actually don't have access to that much money, you're more likely to wake up and say, "What is this hole?

我认为如果你实际上拿不到那么多钱，你更有可能醒来并说：“这个洞是什么？

I need to fix it in a different way." It's health, it's relationships, it's purpose, whatever it might be, rather than trying to put a Band-Aid of credit over it.

我需要以不同的方式解决它。”这是健康、人际关系、目的，无论是什么，而不是试图在上面贴上创可贴。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So interesting.

太有趣了。

I sometimes think about the phrase, "Money can't buy happiness," and my immediate impulse is to respond with, "Well, somebody with a lot of money probably said that."

有时我会想到“金钱买不到幸福”这句话，我的第一反应就是回答：“嗯，有很多钱的人可能会这么说。”

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Not because I think money can buy happiness, but money can buffer stress.

不是因为我认为金钱可以买到幸福，而是金钱可以缓冲压力。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I have friends who've had children recently who have night nurses.

我有一些朋友最近生了孩子，他们有夜班护士。

They're looking a lot more rested- ...

他们看起来休息多了-...

than the ones that don't-

比那些没有-

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

because they can't afford them.

因为他们买不起。

And on and on.

不断地。

If you have a medical issue, right?

如果您有医疗问题，对吗？

There's this whole world within hospitals that we won't talk about in this episode, but there's this whole world about wealth and how one is actually even treated as a person in a hospital.

在这一集里，我们不会谈论医院里的这个世界，但是这个世界是关于财富的，以及一个人在医院里如何被当作一个人对待的。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There's a lot of knowledge behind the scenes about people's income level when they come into a hospital.

当人们进入医院时，有很多关于他们收入水平的幕后知识。

People are going to go wide-eyed when they hear this.

当人们听到这句话时，都会睁大眼睛。

They'll get shuttled to different rooms, different conditions that allow them to sleep better, recover better.

他们将被送往不同的房间，不同的条件，让他们睡得更好，恢复得更好。

Health outcomes depend on this, and on and on.

健康结果取决于此，并且取决于此。

So money can't buy happiness, but it certainly can buffer stress, and it can drive outcomes.

因此，金钱买不到幸福，但它确实可以缓解压力，并且可以推动成果。

So how should we frame that, especially if we are on the or in the pursuit of acquiring more money, more wealth.

那么我们应该如何构建这一点，特别是如果我们正在或正在追求获得更多的金钱、更多的财富。

Because a lot of people are.

因为很多人都是。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Money absolutely can buy happiness.

金钱绝对可以买到幸福。

It's often, though, an indirect path.

不过，这通常是一条间接路径。

And what I mean by that is, will a big fancy house make you happier?

我的意思是，一栋豪华的大房子会让你更快乐吗？

And the answer is probably yes.

答案可能是肯定的。

But the reason it might is because it'll make it easier to host friends and family, and that's what's actually making you happy.

但这可能是因为它会让接待朋友和家人变得更容易，而这才是真正让你快乐的原因。

It's those extra connections with those people.

这是与那些人的额外联系。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Does going on a nice vacation make you happy, an expensive vacation?

度过一个美好的假期会让你开心吗？一个昂贵的假期吗？

Yes, because you're going to form memories with your kids, with your spouse, with your friends while you're there.

是的，因为当你在那里的时候，你会和你的孩子、你的配偶、你的朋友一起形成回忆。

That's what's making you happy.

这就是让你快乐的原因。

So you can't say that money doesn't make people happy.

所以你不能说金钱不能让人幸福。

It does.

确实如此。

It obviously does.

显然确实如此。

The other thing that's important is what really makes people happy in their core is some sense of purpose.

另一件重要的事情是，真正让人们内心感到快乐的是某种使命感。

There's a great quote from the movie "Boiler Room" where he says, "People who say money doesn't buy happiness don't have any." And I think there's a lot of truth to that, that people who become richer say, "Of course, I was happier now than I was when I was poor.

电影《锅炉房》中有一句很精彩的台词，他说：“那些说金钱买不到幸福的人其实没有幸福。”我认为这很有道理，变得更富有的人会说：“当然，我现在比贫穷时更快乐。

Of course, I would never want to go back there." But often what's happening is the reason that you are happier when you are rich is because the reason you got rich is because you found some sort of purpose.

当然，我永远不想回到那里。”但通常发生的事情是，当你富有时你会更快乐，因为你变得富有的原因是因为你找到了某种目标。

You built a business, you were successful in your career, and that gave you a good sense of purpose and identity.

你创立了一家企业，你的职业生涯取得了成功，这给了你良好的目标感和认同感。

And where you see the opposite of that are lottery winners who become rich, but not because they made a good investment, not because they built a business, not because they're successful and their peers like them and whatnot, they just got lucky.

你会看到与此相反的是彩票中奖者，他们变得富有，但不是因为他们进行了良好的投资，不是因为他们建立了一家企业，也不是因为他们成功并且他们的同龄人喜欢他们等等，他们只是幸运。

And those are the people, so many studies, that winning the lottery will not make you happy.

这些人，那么多的研究，中了彩票并不会让你快乐。

It might for a very short period of time, but over time, it doesn't because you didn't get any added purpose.

它可能会持续很短的一段时间，但随着时间的推移，它不会因为你没有得到任何额外的目的。

You can't wake up in the morning and say, "I built this business.

你不能早上醒来说：“我创办了这家公司。

I did it.

我做到了。

I'm so successful.

我太成功了

I got my PhD, I did..." There's none of that.

我获得了博士学位，我做到了……”什么都没有。

You just got lucky.

你只是很幸运。

And so that's not going to bring you much happiness.

所以这不会给你带来太多快乐。

So money does make you happier.

所以金钱确实能让人更快乐。

I think it can for everybody if you learn how to spend it in your personality and whatnot.

我认为如果你学会如何在你的个性和其他方面度过它，这对每个人都可以。

Even spending a lot of it, spending a ton of money can make you happier.

即使花很多钱，花很多钱也能让你更快乐。

I think there's almost no limit to it.

我认为几乎没有限制。

But it's different for everybody, and it's often a roundabout way.

但这对每个人来说都是不同的，而且往往是一种迂回的方式。

I think a lot about this when if I go on an expensive vacation with my kids, let's say that's a 10 out of 10 in terms of just happiness, memories, and whatnot.

当我和孩子们去度过一个昂贵的假期时，我会思考很多，假设就幸福、回忆等而言，这是十分之十。

But actually, what was making me happy was spending uninterrupted time with my kids.

但实际上，让我快乐的是与我的孩子们一起度过不受干扰的时间。

So staying home and playing Legos on the living room floor with them, that might be an eight and a half.

因此，呆在家里和他们一起在客厅地板上玩乐高积木，这可能是八个半。

Because that's what's making me happy.

因为这就是让我快乐的事情。

You just have to figure out the actual purpose.

你只需要弄清楚真正的目的。

I think a good formula for a pretty good life at the simplest level is independence plus purpose.

我认为在最简单的层面上过上美好生活的一个好公式就是独立加上目标。

You need to have a purpose that is bigger than yourself that you are chasing, family, religion, work, whatever it might be.

你需要有一个比你自己更大的目标，你所追求的目标是家庭、宗教、工作，无论是什么。

Different for everybody.

对每个人来说都是不同的。

And you need to have the independence to make sure you can do it on your own terms rather than chasing somebody else's goal.

而且你需要有独立性，以确保你可以按照自己的方式去做，而不是追逐别人的目标。

That's the highest level of psychological well-being, independence, and purpose.

这是心理健康、独立性和目标的最高水平。

And money is not one of those things, but you can easily see how money can help those things.

金钱不是其中之一，但你可以很容易地看到金钱如何帮助这些事情。

Money brings you independence.

金钱给你带来独立。

It can allow you to find your purpose in a bigger way.

它可以让你以更大的方式找到你的目标。

You're not at your boss's whim.

你不会听从老板的心血来潮。

You can do whatever you want.

你可以做任何你想做的事。

You're independent.

你是独立的。

So using money as a tool can make you happier.

所以用金钱作为工具可以让你更快乐。

Spending money can make you happier, but it's not the thing that is making you happier.

花钱可以让你更快乐，但花钱并不是让你更快乐的事情。

It's just a tool to do other things and acquire other things that are actually making you happy.

它只是做其他事情和获得其他真正让你快乐的东西的工具。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。

By now, many of you have heard me say that if I could take just one supplement, that supplement would be AG1.

到目前为止，你们很多人都听我说过，如果我只能服用一种补充剂，那么该补充剂就是 AG1。

The reason for that is AG1 is the highest quality and most complete of the foundational nutritional supplements available.

原因是 AG1 是现有的基础营养补充剂中质量最高、最全面的。

What that means is that it contains not just vitamins and minerals, but also probiotics, prebiotics, and adaptogens to cover any gaps you may have in your diet and provide support for a demanding life.

这意味着它不仅含有维生素和矿物质，还含有益生菌、益生元和适应原，可以弥补您饮食中可能存在的任何空白，并为高要求的生活提供支持。

For me, even if I eat mostly whole foods and minimally processed foods, which I do for most of my food intake, it's very difficult for me to get enough fruits and vegetables, vitamins and minerals, micronutrients, and adaptogens from food alone.

对我来说，即使我主要吃天然食品和最低限度加工的食品（这是我摄入的大部分食物的一部分），我也很难仅从食物中获取足够的水果和蔬菜、维生素和矿物质、微量营养素和适应原。

For that reason, I've been taking AG1 daily since 2012.

因此，自 2012 年以来我一直每天服用 AG1。

When I do that, it clearly bolsters my energy, my immune system, and my gut microbiome.

当我这样做时，它明显增强了我的能量、我的免疫系统和我的肠道微生物组。

These are all critical to brain function, mood, physical performance, and much more.

这些对于大脑功能、情绪、身体表现等都至关重要。

If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim their special offer.

如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 以获得特别优惠。

Right now, they're giving away five free travel packs plus a year's supply of vitamin D3 K2.

目前，他们赠送五个免费旅行包以及一年的维生素 D3 K2。

Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman to claim that special offer.

再次强调，您可以通过 Drinkag1.com/huberman 领取特别优惠。

Today's episode is also brought to us by ROKA.

今天的节目也是ROKA给我们带来的。

ROKA makes eyeglasses and sunglasses that are of the absolute highest quality.

ROKA 生产绝对最高品质的眼镜和太阳镜。

I'm excited to share that ROKA and I have teamed up to create a new style of red lens glasses.

我很高兴地告诉大家，我和 ROKA 联手打造了一款新型红色镜片眼镜。

These red lens glasses are meant to be worn in the evening after the sun goes down.

这些红色镜片的眼镜适合在晚上太阳落山后佩戴。

They filter out short wavelength light that comes from screens and from LED lights, the sorts of LED lights that are most commonly used as overhead and, frankly, lamp lighting nowadays.

它们过滤掉来自屏幕和 LED 灯的短波长光，这些 LED 灯最常用作头顶照明，坦率地说，是当今的台灯照明。

And I want to emphasize ROKA red lens glasses are not traditional blue blockers.

我想强调的是，ROKA 红色镜片眼镜不是传统的防蓝光眼镜。

They're not designed to be worn during the day and to filter out blue light from screen light.

它们的设计目的不是为了在白天佩戴，也不是为了滤除屏幕光中的蓝光。

They're designed to prevent the full range of wavelengths that suppress melatonin secretion at night and that can alter your sleep.

它们的设计目的是防止各种波长抑制夜间褪黑激素的分泌，从而改变您的睡眠。

So by wearing ROKA red lens glasses, they help you calm down and they improve your transition to sleep.

因此，佩戴 ROKA 红色镜片眼镜可以帮助您平静下来，并改善您入睡的过渡。

Most nights, I stay up until about 10:00 PM or even midnight, and I wake up between 5:00 and 7:00 AM, depending on when I went to sleep.

大多数晚上，我会熬夜到晚上 10:00 左右甚至午夜，并在早上 5:00 到 7:00 之间醒来，具体取决于我入睡的时间。

Now I put my ROKA red lens glasses on as soon as it gets dark outside, and I've noticed a much easier transition to sleep, which makes sense based on everything we know about how filtering out short wavelengths of light can allow your brain to function correctly.

现在，一旦外面天一黑，我就戴上 ROKA 红色镜片眼镜，我注意到进入睡眠的过渡要容易得多，根据我们所知道的关于过滤短波长光如何让大脑正常运作的所有知识，这是有道理的。

ROKA red lens glasses also look cool, frankly.

坦白说，ROKA 红镜片眼镜看起来也很酷。

You can wear them out to dinner or to concerts or out with friends.

您可以穿着它们去参加晚宴、音乐会或与朋友外出。

So it turns out it is indeed possible to support your biology, to be scientific about it, and to remain social after all.

所以事实证明，确实有可能支持你的生物学，使其科学化，并毕竟保持社交性。

If you'd like to try ROKA, go to roka.com, that's R-O-K-A.com, and enter the code Huberman to save 20% off your first order.

如果您想尝试 ROKA，请访问 roka.com，即 R-O-K-A.com，然后输入代码 Huberman，即可在首次订单时享受 20% 的折扣。

Again, that's R-O-K-A.com, and enter the code Huberman at checkout.

再次强调，这是 R-O-K-A.com，并在结账时输入代码 Huberman。

I love the story about spending time with your kids on vacation as unstructured time, as well as spending unstructured time with them playing Legos at home.

我喜欢这个故事，讲述与孩子一起度假的非结构化时间，以及与他们在家玩乐高积木的非结构化时间。

My graduate advisor sadly passed away very young of cancer.

我的研究生导师很不幸地因癌症去世了。

She was 50, and I knew her kids really when they were in the womb because she was pregnant with the first one.

她 50 岁了，我真的了解她的孩子们还在子宫里的时候，因为她怀的是第一个孩子。

And I attended the memorial service there and It was an incredible thing because people gave their speeches, and her kids got up, and by then they were, I think about eight and 11 or so.

我参加了那里的追悼会，这是一件令人难以置信的事情，因为人们发表了演讲，她的孩子们也起床了，到那时他们已经是，我想大约八岁和十一岁左右了。

And I'm sure they had a great many thoughts and feelings that they didn't share, but the one thing that really stood out is they appreciated how much unstructured time their mom had spent with them.

我确信他们有很多想法和感受没有分享，但真正突出的一件事是他们很感激妈妈和他们一起度过了多少非结构化的时间。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It wasn't this big event or something.

这不是什么大事件什么的。

It was all the unstructured time that she had spent with them.

这是她和他们一起度过的所有无组织的时间。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And that was very inherent to the kind of person she was.

这是她这种人与生俱来的。

And so that really stuck with me.

这真的让我很困扰。

And God willing, you live a very long time.

上帝保佑，你会活得很长。

But I think for anyone listening to this, and because of the statement that Kahneman made where that we are not well calibrated to sense future regret-

但我认为对于任何听这个的人来说，并且由于卡尼曼所做的声明，我们没有很好地校准以感知未来的遗憾 -

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

the unstructured time is perhaps one of the most valuable things that we can give our relationships, both the people we engage in them with and ourselves.

自由的时间也许是我们可以给予我们的人际关系最有价值的东西之一，无论是与我们交往的人还是我们自己。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I don't think it's discussed enough.

我认为对此的讨论还不够。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

There's a gerontologist named Carl Pillemer, who wrote a great book called "30 Lessons for Living." And what he did is he interviewed about 100 centenarians, and he just said, "Tell me about your life.

有一位名叫卡尔·皮勒默（Carl Pillemer）的老年学家，他写了一本很棒的书，名叫《30堂生活课》。他所做的是采访了大约 100 名百岁老人，他只是说：“告诉我你的生活。

What advice do you have for the rest of us?" And there's a section of his book about money, and he says of the 1,000 people, it's 1,000 people he interviewed, of the 1,000 centenarians he interviewed, not a single one of them looking back at their lives said, "I wish I earned more money." Not a one.

您对我们其他人有什么建议？”他的书中有一节是关于金钱的，他说，在他采访的 1000 人中，在他采访的 1000 名百岁老人中，没有一个人在回顾自己的生活时说：“我希望我赚更多的钱。”不是一个。

But virtually every one of them said, "I wish I spent more time with my kids.

但几乎每个人都说：“我希望能花更多时间陪伴我的孩子。

I wish I was nicer to people.

我希望我对人好一些。

I wish I spent more time with my friends, my family." That was universal, but earn more money was not in there whatsoever.

我希望我能花更多的时间和我的朋友、家人在一起。”这是普遍的，但赚更多的钱根本不在那里。

That stuck with me.

这让我很困扰。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

And as you point out, however, earning money allows for the opportunity to spend time with-

然而，正如你所指出的，赚钱可以让你有机会花时间与——

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

kids and loved ones of all kinds.

孩子们和各种亲人。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

But it can, but I think there are a lot of people for whom it's the opposite.

但它可以，但我认为对很多人来说，情况恰恰相反。

If you are a partner at a law firm, you're earning a ton of money.

如果你是一家律师事务所的合伙人，你会赚很多钱。

Congratulations.

恭喜。

Great.

伟大的。

You probably have a big house and a nice car.

你可能有一栋大房子和一辆好车。

You're also probably working 100 hours a week.

您也可能每周工作 100 小时。

And the things that might fill your soul, it's different for everybody, this is not universal, but what might actually make you happy, spending time with your friends, your family, exercising, sleeping late, is not available to you.

那些可能充满你灵魂的东西，对每个人来说都是不同的，这不是普遍的，但真正能让你快乐的东西，比如与朋友、家人共度时光、锻炼身体、睡懒觉，对你来说并不可用。

So that's why it's independence plus purpose.

这就是为什么它是独立加目的的。

And I think there are a lot of people who make millions of dollars per year and have no independence whatsoever.

我认为有很多人每年赚数百万美元，却没有任何独立性。

They are completely tied to their boss's whims, to their work, to their employer.

他们完全受老板的突发奇想、工作、雇主的束缚。

They might love it.

他们可能会喜欢它。

I'm not saying you shouldn't do that, but they have no independence at all.

我并不是说你不应该这样做，但他们根本没有独立性。

I think there are billionaires who have no independence because they are so tied to doing things whether they like it or not.

我认为有些亿万富翁没有独立性，因为无论他们喜欢与否，他们都被束缚在做事上。

I think a lot of people go crazy in that situation because they're like, "I'm making $5 million a year, but it's not making me any happier." It's like, yeah, what would make you happier is independence, and you are pushing yourself away from that.

我认为很多人在这种情况下都会发疯，因为他们会想，“我每年赚 500 万美元，但这并没有让我更快乐。”就好像，是的，独立会让你更快乐，但你却在逃避独立。

You were probably more independent when you were 15 and had no money than you are at 40 making millions of dollars a year.

当你 15 岁、没有钱的时候，你可能比 40 岁时年薪数百万美元更加独立。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So then in an ideal world, which of course doesn't exist, one would find a vocation or a pursuit that they found really meaningful, would work really, really hard, would make enough money to then, I guess, retire and spend unstructured time with the people you love, and then simply stop working.

因此，在一个理想的世界（当然不存在）中，人们会找到一份他们认为真正有意义的职业或追求，会非常非常努力地工作，赚到足够的钱，然后，我想，退休并与您所爱的人一起度过无组织的时间，然后干脆停止工作。

In this model, that clearly is an artificial model that I'm creating here, because it seems like after a certain point, provided you earned that money through an effort that you felt was meaningful, presumably with people you enjoy, or even if it wasn't, you found it meaningful, you make that money, then it seems that it's all about human interactions at that point.

在这个模型中，这显然是我在这里创建的一个人工模型，因为似乎在某个点之后，如果你通过你认为有意义的努力赚到了钱，大概是和你喜欢的人一起，或者即使不是，你发现它有意义，你赚了这笔钱，那么似乎这一切都与那时的人际互动有关。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

And what's true is that that scenario, that dream scenario, might be true for 1% of the people, that they can earn enough money to retire young and then pursue whatever they want.

事实是，这种情况，那种梦想的情况，对于 1% 的人来说可能是真的，他们可以赚到足够的钱，年轻时退休，然后追求他们想要的任何东西。

There's an entrepreneur named Felix Dennis, who wrote a book many years ago called "How to Get Rich," and there's a quote in that book.

有一位名叫菲利克斯·丹尼斯的企业家，他多年前写了一本叫做《如何致富》的书，那本书里有一句话。

He was, at the time, maybe in his 70s and worth about a billion dollars, something like that, and he said, "If I knew what I knew now and I could do life over again, I would make as much money as I could, retire at age 35, and plant trees and write poetry." And he's like, "Looking back, that's what I should have done." But let's leave aside that, of course, not everybody can do that.

当时他大概 70 多岁，身家大约有 10 亿美元，差不多就是这样，他说，“如果我知道我现在所知道的，并且我可以重新开始生活，我会赚尽可能多的钱，在 35 岁时退休，植树并写诗。”他说：“回想起来，这就是我应该做的。”但我们先抛开这一点，当然，并不是每个人都能做到这一点。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What did he do?

他做了什么？

He kept working.

他继续工作。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

He kept working.

他继续工作。

He was an entrepreneur.

他是一位企业家。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Even though he didn't need more money.

尽管他不需要更多的钱。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This is interesting because people who do achieve a high degree of wealth at a young age seem to keep going, and we could make all sorts of assumptions about why it is that they do that.

这很有趣，因为那些在年轻时就获得高额财富的人似乎会继续前进，我们可以对他们为什么这样做做出各种假设。

Expectations from others, that their ego, literally their sense of self in some way or perhaps entirely is tied to the sense that they're still in pursuit, that it's somehow a failure to opt-out at that point.

他人的期望，即他们的自我，实际上是他们的自我意识以某种方式或可能完全与他们仍在追求的感觉联系在一起，在这一点上选择退出在某种程度上是一种失败。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We can speculate all day, but what this guy Felix said really rings true.

我们可以猜测一整天，但菲利克斯这个家伙说的确实是真的。

It seems like once people reach a number, and for everyone it's going to be different, it's not going to be a billion dollars for everybody.

似乎一旦人们达到一个数字，对于每个人来说都会有所不同，不会是每个人都达到十亿美元。

Once they have enough resources for themselves and the people they need to take care of, maybe a little bit more as a buffer, it makes no sense to continue on that path.

一旦他们为自己和需要照顾的人拥有足够的资源，也许再多一点作为缓冲，继续走这条路就没有意义了。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Well, I think there are a lot of people, I think you're one of them, and I'm one of them, who enjoy what they do.

嗯，我认为有很多人，我想你是其中之一，我也是其中之一，他们喜欢他们所做的事情。

And if you and I got to a point where we're completely financially independent, all the money we'll need for the rest of our life, I would still be a writer.

如果你和我达到了经济完全独立的地步，我们有余生所需的所有钱，我仍然会是一名作家。

You would still do your research.

你仍然会做你的研究。

Because we enjoy it.

因为我们享受它。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Absolutely.

绝对地。

I love learning.

我热爱学习。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

So it's not just-

所以这不仅仅是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I love learning.

我热爱学习。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Right.

对。

And I think if, actually, if you are the kind of person who says, "Once I hit my number, I'm done," you probably don't love your work at all.

我认为，实际上，如果你是那种说“一旦达到我的数字，我就完成了”的人，你可能根本不喜欢你的工作。

Almost by definition, you don't.

几乎根据定义，你不知道。

I think what's dangerous, though, is when the money itself is part of your identity.

但我认为危险的是，当金钱本身成为你身份的一部分时。

I like being a writer.

我喜欢当作家。

I like the process of writing.

我喜欢写作的过程。

But if I were to say, "I have to keep writing books because I need to make more money, I have to have a higher net worth," particularly if I'm past the point of taking care of my family, then at that point, I think money is actually a liability.

但如果我说，“我必须继续写书，因为我需要赚更多的钱，我必须拥有更高的净资产”，特别是如果我已经过了照顾家人的阶段，那么在这一点上，我认为金钱实际上是一种负债。

It's a financial asset and a psychological liability.

这是一种金融资产，也是一种心理负债。

It's taking control over what you're doing in life.

它正在控制你在生活中所做的事情。

If you're saying, "I have to have more of it." If there's anything in life where you're like, "I have to have more, and even when I get more, my satiation point goes higher and higher", what is that?

如果你说：“我必须拥有更多。”如果生活中有什么事情让你觉得“我必须拥有更多，即使我得到更多，我的饱足感也会越来越高”，那是什么？

It's an addiction.

这是一种瘾。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

And it's controlling you at that point.

那时它正在控制你。

So there are a lot of people for whom money is a financial asset and a psychological liability, and I think that's actually true for some of the richest people in society, that it grows exponentially over time.

因此，对很多人来说，金钱是一种金融资产和一种心理负担，我认为对于社会上一些最富有的人来说，这实际上是正确的，随着时间的推移，金钱呈指数级增长。

The richer you become, the more addicted to having more grows on you.

你越富有，你就越沉迷于拥有更多的东西。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In the backdrop of everything we've talked about thus far is the biology of dopamine reward.

到目前为止，我们所讨论的一切都是以多巴胺奖赏的生物学为背景的。

Dopamine, of course, being a molecule that people associate with reward, but it's really about the pursuit of reward.

当然，多巴胺是一种人们与奖励联系在一起的分子，但它实际上与对奖励的追求有关。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

More.

更多。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's about more.

还涉及更多。

And it's no coincidence that dopamine is involved in generating movement in the body.

多巴胺参与体内运动的产生并非巧合。

This is why people with Parkinson's who are depleted in dopamine can't generate movement, and it's also involved in generating cognitive movement and pursuit, paying attention to things.

这就是为什么多巴胺耗尽的帕金森病患者无法产生运动，而多巴胺也参与产生认知运动和追求，关注事物。

There is this idea that I've been pushing for a few years now that kind of throws its arms around a big literature on dopamine that says that addiction is a progressive narrowing of the things that bring you pleasure.

我几年来一直在推动一个想法，这种想法类似于一本关于多巴胺的大型文献，它说成瘾是一种逐渐缩小的给你带来快乐的东西。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But your definition is actually much better, I realize.

但我意识到，你的定义实际上要好得多。

Addiction is a progressive narrowing of the things that bring you pleasure and/or safety or a sense of safety.

成瘾是指逐渐缩小给你带来快乐和/或安全或安全感的事物。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right?

对吗？

Because here we're not talking about making more money to enjoy things more.

因为这里我们不是在谈论赚更多的钱来享受更多的事情。

We're talking about making more money to avoid the sense that pain is coming or that we are vulnerable.

我们谈论的是赚更多的钱，以避免痛苦即将来临或我们很脆弱的感觉。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

And for a lot of people, that pain is a social pain, that they're not going to climb high enough on the social ladder, that their peers are earning more than them, that their neighbors have a bigger house, whatever it might be.

对于很多人来说，这种痛苦是一种社会痛苦，他们在社会阶梯上爬得不够高，他们的同龄人比他们挣得更多，他们的邻居拥有更大的房子，无论它是什么。

That's the pain that they're trying to avoid.

这就是他们试图避免的痛苦。

And that is a game that cannot be won because gratefully, thankfully, there are a lot of very wealthy people in this world, and no matter how much money you're making, there's always somebody out there who's earning more, living better, and has a bigger house and a nicer car.

这是一场无法获胜的游戏，因为值得庆幸的是，这个世界上有很多非常富有的人，无论你赚多少钱，总有人赚得更多，生活更好，拥有更大的房子和更好的汽车。

That's always the case.

情况总是如此。

So if you are on that path of, "I need to earn more to climb that ladder so I can have more than the next guy," that's a game that you cannot win.

因此，如果你走在这条路上，“我需要赚更多的钱来攀登阶梯，这样我才能比下一个人拥有更多”，那么这就是一场你无法获胜的游戏。

And I think that game of comparison too also grows the wealthier you are.

我认为比较游戏也会让你变得更加富有。

The billionaires are more likely to compare themselves to other billionaires than the minimum wage worker is to compare themselves to somebody making $10 an hour or whatever.

亿万富翁更有可能将自己与其他亿万富翁进行比较，而不是最低工资工人将自己与时薪 10 美元或其他什么的人进行比较。

You are more likely to compare your lifestyle the richer you become.

你越富有，就越有可能比较你的生活方式。

And since that comparison to other people is what gives you a feeling of inadequacy, there's this irony.

由于与其他人的比较会给你一种不足的感觉，所以这就是讽刺。

It's hard to wrap your head around it and come to terms with it, but some of the most money insecure people you'll ever meet are the richest people you'll ever meet.

你很难全神贯注并接受它，但你所遇到的一些最缺乏金钱安全感的人正是你所遇到的最富有的人。

People who live in a 15,000 square foot mansion.

住在15,000平方英尺豪宅里的人们。

"Yeah, but he's got a 17,000 square foot mansion." Things that ordinary people would never consider that just consumes their life.

“是的，但他有一座一万七千平方英尺的豪宅。”普通人永远不会想到的事情只会消耗他们的生命。

And again, that's the point where money is like the psychological debt.

再说一次，这就是金钱就像心理债务的地方。

It's psychological liability.

这是心理责任。

It becomes an integral part of their identity.

它成为他们身份的一个组成部分。

They wake up in the morning and look in the mirror and they see a person who makes money.

他们早上醒来，照镜子，看到一个赚钱的人。

That's their identity.

这就是他们的身份。

Who are you?

你是谁？

I'm a person who makes money.

我是一个会赚钱的人。

And that's when your process of chasing it just becomes a detriment to your happiness over time.

随着时间的推移，你追逐它的过程就会损害你的幸福。

You're not using it as a tool to live a better life.

您没有将其用作过上更好生活的工具。

You're using it as a yardstick to measure yourself against others by.

你用它作为衡量自己与他人的标准。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I fundamentally believe that all forms of addiction, all forms of addiction are fundamentally a fear of death.

我从根本上相信，所有形式的成瘾，所有形式的成瘾从根本上来说都是对死亡的恐惧。

They're a way of-

它们是一种方式——

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Mm

毫米

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

shrinking our aperture on time perception so that we're in pursuit of something.

缩小我们对时间感知的孔径，以便我们追求某些东西。

And for people that can place their addiction within work, it has this feedback of being, quote unquote, "functional" as opposed to dysfunctional.

对于那些能够将自己的成瘾投入到工作中的人来说，它的反馈是，引用不引用，是“功能性的”而不是功能失调的。

This is also true for people that are continually seeking awards within their profession.

对于那些在自己的职业中不断寻求奖项的人来说也是如此。

There are these professions, academia included, but other professions where people are constantly pinning awards on one another, and it gives this illusion of progress when in fact, there's a whole world of things happening.

有这些职业，包括学术界，但在其他职业中，人们不断地互相奖励，这给人一种进步的错觉，而事实上，整个世界都在发生事情。

Now, these people often have quite healthy families and relationships, so they're not mutually exclusive.

现在，这些人通常都有相当健康的家庭和人际关系，因此他们并不互相排斥。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

No.

不。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But I think I know a few billionaires, not many, but I know some that are very happy.

但我想我认识一些亿万富翁，不是很多，但我认识一些非常幸福的人。

They tend to be the people that are still working and in pursuit of new things.

他们往往是仍在工作并追求新事物的人。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Avid learners.

热心的学习者。

But perhaps by virtue of the work that I do, which is focused on science, but also health, the modern billionaires that I'm aware of seem to be very focused on not just making money, but also trying to secure their place on the planet for a very long time.

但也许凭借我所做的工作，既关注科学，又关注健康，我所认识的现代亿万富翁似乎不仅非常关注赚钱，而且还试图在很长一段时间内确保自己在地球上的地位。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Not through legacy, although I think many of them like to provide for the next generations in their family, surely.

不是通过遗产，尽管我认为他们中的许多人肯定喜欢养活家里的下一代。

Not so much by putting their names on the sides of buildings anymore, this used to be the way it was done, but rather trying to secure their health status.

不再是把他们的名字写在建筑物的侧面，这是过去的做法，而是试图确保他们的健康状况。

Because the one thing that money can buy sort of is better healthcare.

因为金钱可以买到的一件事就是更好的医疗保健。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But money can't buy you more years of your life, except by virtue of the things that you are willing to not do and do behaviorally.

但金钱无法让你活得更长久，除非你愿意不做和在行为上做的事情。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You still have to exercise.

你还是要锻炼身体。

You still have to get your sleep.

你还得睡觉。

You have to avoid certain things.

你必须避免某些事情。

And so the modern billionaires often are talking about what they're doing for their health as opposed to their yacht, their car, et cetera.

因此，现代亿万富翁经常谈论他们为健康所做的事情，而不是他们的游艇、汽车等。

This has now become the kind of metric for comparison.

现在这已成为一种比较指标。

Blood profiles become a sort of point of bragging for people.

血型成为人们吹嘘的一个点。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's pretty interesting.

这很有趣。

Especially given that you just look back about 50 or even 100 years and further back, and the more wealthy people were, the less physical labor they were doing.

特别是考虑到你回顾大约 50 年甚至 100 年甚至更早的时候，人们越富有，他们所做的体力劳动就越少。

Now they're doing more physical labor to try and live longer.

现在他们正在做更多的体力劳动，试图活得更长。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So what are your thoughts on the relationship between physical health and money?

那么您对身体健康和金钱之间的关系有何看法？

Obviously, there's a sweet spot there, but there's no pill that people can purchase to live longer.

显然，这是一个最佳点，但人们无法购买任何药物来延长寿命。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Right.

对。

I view it in the negative sense of the people who work to get money so hard that it takes a physical toll on their body, and that is so incredibly common, and that's another form of debt.

我从负面意义上看待它，即那些为了赚钱而努力工作的人，以至于对他们的身体造成了身体伤害，这种情况非常普遍，这是另一种形式的债务。

That you can easily measure your net worth and your income.

您可以轻松衡量您的净资产和收入。

You can put a number on it, very clean to measure.

你可以在上面写一个数字，测量起来非常干净。

It's much harder to measure your health, and I think it's easier for people to say, "Yes, I'm only sleeping five hours a night and I'm on my third divorce and I'm overweight, but I'm making a lot of money this year." Because one is very easy to measure and the others are much harder.

衡量你的健康状况要困难得多，我认为人们更容易说：“是的，我每晚只睡五个小时，我正在第三次离婚，而且我超重，但我今年赚了很多钱。”因为其中一个很容易测量，而其他则很难测量。

Your happiness, your health, whatnot, it's harder to measure that.

你的幸福、你的健康等等，都很难衡量。

And I do think, too, that if you are very wealthy, particularly the very, very wealthy, you get so accustomed towards, "I can snap my fingers and literally get anything.

我也确实认为，如果你非常富有，尤其是非常非常富有，你就会习惯于“我打个响指就可以得到任何东西。

A Gulfstream jet, a mansion, whatever, I can get it right now." But health is like this last elusive thing that by and large you cannot purchase, and I think that drives a lot of people crazy.

一架湾流喷气式飞机，一座豪宅，无论什么，我现在就能得到。”但健康就像最后一个难以捉摸的东西，总的来说你无法购买，我认为这让很多人发疯。

And that's why if you can have anything in the world by snapping your fingers and getting it, then you eventually move towards what's the thing that you don't have, and that's immortality.

这就是为什么如果你打响指就能拥有世界上任何东西，那么你最终会走向你所没有的东西，那就是不朽。

And I think there's a long history of that, going back to the robber barons.

我认为这有很长的历史，可以追溯到强盗大亨。

John D.

约翰·D.

Rockefeller was obsessed with it.

洛克菲勒对此十分着迷。

Andrew Carnegie was obsessed with it.

安德鲁·卡内基对此非常着迷。

If you can have everything material in the world, you're still going to have desire.

如果你能拥有世界上一切物质，你仍然会有欲望。

And ordinary people can sit around and dream and say, "One day I'm going to have the mansion." Or not even a mansion.

而普通人可以坐在那里梦想着说：“有一天我会拥有这座豪宅。”或者甚至连豪宅都没有。

"One day I'm going to have a house of my own.

“有一天我会拥有一套属于自己的房子。

I'm going to have a car, and I'm going to send my kids to college." Everybody wants to dream.

我要拥有一辆车，我要送我的孩子上大学。”每个人都想要梦想。

So if all that is a given, you have all the money you could ever spend, you still want to dream.

因此，如果这一切都是给定的，你拥有了所有可以花的钱，你仍然想要梦想。

So what do you dream about?

那么你的梦想是什么？

You dream about immortality.

你梦想着永生。

And so I think that's been the case for a very long period of time.

所以我认为这种情况已经持续了很长一段时间了。

What's interesting too is that there was a historian who looked back at the British peerage.

同样有趣的是，有一位历史学家回顾了英国贵族的情况。

He got a lot of data on how long people lived in various points of the UK economy, and what he found was until about, I think it was 1750, the richest members of the UK had among the shortest lives.

他获得了大量关于英国经济各个方面人们寿命的数据，他发现直到大约（我认为是 1750 年）英国最富有的成员的寿命都是最短的。

The poorest people were some of them who were living the longest.

最贫穷的人是其中一些寿命最长的人。

And he dug into it and said, "How could this be?

他深挖了一番，说道：“怎么会这样呢？

The richest people die the fastest?" And what he found is the richest people were the only ones who could afford all the quack medicines and the sham doctors who were just poisoning them.

最富有的人死得最快？”他发现最富有的人是唯一能买得起所有庸医和那些只是在药物下毒的假医生的人。

They were poisoning them back in the day when we knew nothing about medicine.

在我们对医学一无所知的时候，他们就在毒害它们。

So I think the idea of I want a better life and I should be able to buy that, there's a long history of that backfiring on people as well.

所以我认为我想要更好的生活并且我应该能够购买它，这种想法对人们来说也有很​​长的历史。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, there's a lot of excitement right now about stem cells and treatments that currently are not available in the United States that are available out of country and I get asked about these a lot.

是的，现在人们对干细胞和治疗感到非常兴奋，这些技术目前在美国还没有，但在国外却可以使用，我经常被问到这些问题。

Most of them don't have FDA approval yet.

其中大多数尚未获得 FDA 批准。

Some of them probably never will have FDA approval.

其中一些可能永远不会获得 FDA 的批准。

We'll probably talk about stem cells another time.

我们可能下次会讨论干细胞。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Do you think you see this, though, where the wealthiest people are spending money on treatments that you either know are not going to work or are of very questionable-

不过，你认为你看到了吗，最富有的人把钱花在你知道不会起作用或非常值得怀疑的治疗上——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah

是啊

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

...

...

work.

工作。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

All the time.

一直以来。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

And that might backfire on you, that might make you less healthy.

这可能会给你带来适得其反的效果，可能会让你的健康状况下降。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, absolutely.

哦，绝对是。

I'll just point out, I don't have anything against stem cell therapies.

我只想指出，我对干细胞疗法没有任何反对意见。

I think they hold great potential.

我认为他们拥有巨大的潜力。

But there is a true story about a stem cell clinic down in Florida prior to the FDA bringing the gavel down on them of injecting stem cells into the eyes of wealthy people who could afford the treatment.

但有一个真实的故事，在 FDA 下令佛罗里达州的一家干细胞诊所向有能力承担治疗费用的富人的眼睛中注射干细胞之前。

These people had certain markers for macular degeneration and other things that can cause blindness, and guess what happened to these people?

这些人有黄斑变性和其他可能导致失明的疾病的某些标记，猜猜这些人发生了什么？

They all went blind.

他们都瞎了。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So that brought the gavel down on stem cell therapies generally in this country.

因此，这给这个国家的干细胞疗法带来了普遍的打击。

A lot of people are getting infusions of stem cells and related things out of country.

许多人正在国外接受干细胞和相关物质的输注。

They're coming back and they're walking and talking, and they're calling me and they're asking what my thoughts are, and I have a lot of thoughts.

他们回来后边走边说话，打电话给我，问我的想法是什么，我有很多想法。

I think that the basics of longevity are clear, right?

我想长寿的基础已经很清楚了，对吧？

You want to avoid head trauma and environmental toxins.

您想避免头部外伤和环境毒素。

Those things are real, and if you have certain mutations like BRCA mutations-

这些都是真实的，如果你有某些突变，比如 BRCA 突变——

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

you need to be more careful about cancer and avoid smoking.

您需要更加小心癌症并避免吸烟。

All this stuff, right?

所有这些东西，对吗？

Alcohol turns out to be pro-cancerous and things of that sort.

事实证明，酒精会致癌之类的东西。

But then it's physical activity, it's nutrition, it's social connection, it's sleep, it's sunlight.

但接下来是身体活动、营养、社会联系、睡眠、阳光。

It's all the things that I've talked about on this podcast and that other people talk about as well.

这是我在这个播客上讨论过的以及其他人也讨论过的所有事情。

But yes, very wealthy people are looking for that edge to live longer, and it is true that when you start to layer in all the basics of dos and don'ts, all the behaviors, and then you start to augment that with a few extra things, you get the sense of more vigor.

但是，是的，非常富有的人正在寻找这种长寿的优势，确实，当你开始将所有该做和不该做的基本知识、所有行为分层，然后你开始用一些额外的东西来增强它时，你会感觉到更有活力。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That sort of suggests they may live longer, but we still don't know.

这表明他们可能活得更长，但我们仍然不知道。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We still don't know.

我们仍然不知道。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

With the exception of exercise that we absolutely know can enrich mitochondrial density, give people more energy and vigor, et cetera, most of this is still a big question mark.

除了我们绝对知道的运动可以丰富线粒体密度、给人更多能量和活力等等之外，大部分仍然是一个很大的问号。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

See, I could see a very wealthy person using their money, if you are very sick and you have a rare cancer, to throw the kitchen sink at it.

看，我可以看到一个非常富有的人用他们的钱，如果你病得很重并且患有罕见的癌症，那就把厨房的水槽扔到它身上。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, every excellent doctor.

哦，每一位优秀的医生。

Yeah.

是的。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Those million-dollar therapies and whatnot.

那些价值数百万美元的疗法等等。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Sure.

当然。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

I think it's a different animal if you are already pretty healthy-

我认为如果你已经很健康的话那就是另一种动物了-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

...

...

to say, "I'm going to throw my money at trying to become immortal or close to it," whatever it might be.

说：“我要把我的钱投入到尝试变得不朽或接近它”，无论它是什么。

That's a different thing.

那是另一回事。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

I totally agree, and I think what we're talking about here is, you said it fairly quickly, but I think I want to highlight it because I think it's really important that even people who have billions of dollars still have a sense of yearning-

我完全同意，我认为我们在这里讨论的是，你说得相当快，但我想我想强调这一点，因为我认为即使拥有数十亿美元的人仍然有一种向往感，这非常重要-

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

for something that's missing-

对于缺少的东西-

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

or that they don't have, and in some cases, that's the sustaining factor to their wellbeing.

或者他们没有，在某些情况下，这是他们幸福的维持因素。

You say it's also good to be in pursuit, right?

你说有追求也不错吧？

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Maybe that's with dopamine, too, right?

也许这也与多巴胺有关，对吧？

We always want more.

我们总是想要更多。

It's the pursuit of more, and if you're wealthy enough to have everything, you still have a part of your brain that's like, "Yeah, but I want more, I want more, I want more," and if you've exhausted the physical part of the world, that material part of the world, and let's leave aside the billionaires, even the average ordinary American family that owns a modest house, owns a car that functions well, owns nice clothes, will send their kids to a state school.

这是对更多的追求，如果你足够富有，拥有一切，你的大脑中仍然有一部分会说，“是的，但我想要更多，我想要更多，我想要更多，”如果你已经耗尽了世界的物质部分，世界的物质部分，让我们抛开亿万富翁，即使是普通的美国家庭，拥有一栋简陋的房子，拥有一辆性能良好的汽车，拥有漂亮的衣服，也会把他们的孩子送到一个州学校。

By a lot of historical definitions, they have everything.

根据很多历史定义，他们拥有一切。

They have everything you would ever need, but you're always yearning for more.

他们拥有您所需的一切，但您总是渴望更多。

It's always this pursuit of, well, what else don't I have?

总是这样的追求，那么，我还有什么没有呢？

And I think what you want more than anything in life is what you want and cannot have.

我认为生活中你最想要的就是你想要但不能拥有的东西。

That's what you're going to chase with all of your effort, is the thing that you want and cannot have.

那就是你要竭尽全力去追求的东西，是你想要却得不到的东西。

I think that's where health comes in for a lot of these people.

我认为这就是许多人的健康所在。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

As long as you think that there's a possibility you could get it.

只要你认为有可能，你就能得到它。

The dopamine circuit loves you want what you feel is just out of your reach, but might be possible to achieve.

多巴胺回路喜欢你想要的东西，你觉得这超出了你的能力范围，但可能会实现。

This is why-

这就是为什么——

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

people throw so much money away gambling.

人们在赌博上扔掉了很多钱。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

But maybe with social media, it makes it seem so that virtually anything is within your reach.

但也许通过社交媒体，它看起来几乎任何东西都触手可及。

Because it used to be before social media that your view of the world was mostly your neighbors and your coworkers and your siblings, and now everybody's view of the world is a curated highlight reel of the most extreme events in the world.

因为在社交媒体出现之前，你对世界的看法主要是你的邻居、同事和兄弟姐妹，而现在每个人的世界观都是世界上最极端事件的精选集锦。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

So if you are a 15-year-old scrolling through Instagram, then what is within your reach, what looks within your reach is a Ferrari and a private jet and a mansion in a way that didn't exist when you and I were kids, and I think it makes the aspiration level that much harder.

所以，如果你是一个 15 岁的孩子，浏览 Instagram，那么你触手可及的、看起来触手可及的就是一辆法拉利、一架私人飞机和一座豪宅，而这些在你我小时候是不存在的，我认为这让你的渴望变得更加困难。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And real examples of people who went from nothing to immensely popular or wealthy, et cetera.

还有从一无所有到非常受欢迎或富有的人的真实例子，等等。

Gosh, I would say about once a month somebody walks right up to me and says, "Just watch.

天哪，我想说大约每个月都会有人走到我面前说：“就看吧。

Someday I'm going to have the top podcast in the world on blank." And they're trying to seed this thing that they've seen on social media, which are examples of people, it used to be called rags to riches, but-

有一天，我将拥有世界顶级播客的空白。”他们正试图传播他们在社交媒体上看到的这种东西，这些都是人们的例子，它曾经被称为白手起家，但是-

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

they're parallels in different universes.

它们在不同的宇宙中是相似的。

But there's a famous musician, I think his name is Ed Sheeran, who there's still a video of him early on saying he knew he was going to make it.

但有一位著名的音乐家，我想他的名字叫艾德·希兰（Ed Sheeran），他很早就在视频中说他知道自己会成功。

If you watch the Conor McGregor documentary, it's amazing.

如果你看过康纳·麦格雷戈的纪录片，那真是太棒了。

I think it's called "Notorious" on Netflix.

我想它在 Netflix 上的名字叫《美人计》。

Even if people aren't into MMA, they should at least watch the first part.

即使人们不喜欢综合格斗，他们至少应该看第一部分。

He was videotaping himself very early on and he made this prediction that he was going to be a world champion, and then he ends up being a world champion, right?

他很早就在录自己的视频，他预测他将成为世界冠军，然后他最终成为世界冠军，对吗？

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

This is a great anecdote that-

这是一个伟大的轶事——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah

是啊

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

...

...

Kanye West used to practice his Grammy speech when he was walking to the train because he couldn't afford the car Like when he was an absolute nobody, he was practicing his Grammy acceptance speech of just like absolute ambition of where you're going.

坎耶·韦斯特 (Kanye West) 过去常常在步行去火车站时练习他的格莱美演讲，因为他买不起汽车。 就像当他还是一个无名小卒时，他正在练习他的格莱美获奖演讲，就像你要去的地方的绝对野心一样。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, and I don't know if this anecdote is true, but there's the anecdote that I heard that Matt Damon and Ben Affleck practicing their Academy Awards acceptance speech-

是的，我不知道这个轶事是否属实，但有一个轶事，我听说马特·达蒙和本·阿弗莱克正在练习他们的奥斯卡获奖感言——

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Oh, who knows

哦，谁知道呢

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

in the schoolyard when they were kids.

当他们还是孩子的时候，在校园里。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And then they gave their speech, and they were laughing about that.

然后他们发表了演讲，他们为此大笑。

I grew up skateboarding, so when I first got into it, the Tony Hawks and the Mike McGills and Steve Caballeros, these were the names at the time, were like these luminaries, right?

我是玩滑板长大的，所以当我第一次接触滑板时，Tony Hawks、Mike McGills 和 Steve Caballeros 这些是当时的名字，就像这些名人，对吧？

The gap between us and them was so huge.

我们和他们之间的差距实在是太大了。

By the time I was a junior in high school, my best friend at the time, Paul Zuanich, sent in a videotape of himself to a company called Planet Earth.

当我读高中时，我当时最好的朋友保罗·祖尼奇 (Paul Zuanich) 将自己的录像带寄给了一家名为 Planet Earth 的公司。

He got sponsored.

他得到了赞助。

Next thing you know, we're in the shop watching him skateboard.

接下来你知道的，我们在商店里看他玩滑板。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And within a year or two, he had his own pro model.

一两年之内，他就拥有了自己的职业模特。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So I think social media gives us not just the sense of what's out there, but it gives us very salient examples of people that went from completely unknown-

因此，我认为社交媒体不仅让我们了解外面的情况，而且还为我们提供了非常显着的例子，说明人们从完全不认识的人开始——

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

to extremely known.

至极其知名。

Just this last year, there's the so-called Hawk Tuah girl is interviewed outside a bar.

就在去年，有一位所谓的 Hawk Tuah 女孩在酒吧外接受采访。

She now has a very popular podcast.

她现在有一个非常受欢迎的播客。

She has sponsors.

她有赞助商。

She's known.

她是众所周知的。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Literally became one of the most famous people in the country.

名副其实地成为了该国最著名的人物之一。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Overnight.

过夜。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And has a financial stream now of income through her podcast.

现在通过她的播客获得了经济收入。

And so this raises the sort of idea in people's minds or the possibility, however remote, that if somebody puts a camera in front of you, by virtue of one thing that you say, you could suddenly be an internationally known person and potentially go from, quote-unquote, "rags to riches."

因此，这在人们的脑海中引发了一种想法，或者一种可能性，无论多么遥远，如果有人把相机放在你面前，凭借你所说的一件事，你可能会突然成为国际知名人士，并有可能从“白手起家”变成“富有”。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

And if you look at the studies, when you ask teenagers, "What is your preferred career?

如果你看一下这些研究，当你问青少年“你最喜欢的职业是什么？

What do you want to be when you grow up?" It used to be astronaut.

你长大后想做什么？”以前是宇航员。

It used to be doctor.

以前是医生。

It used to be entrepreneur.

曾经是企业家。

Now it's influencer, by far is what people want to be.

现在它是有影响力的人，到目前为止这是人们想要成为的人。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

It seems like the quickest path to fame and wealth.

这似乎是获得名誉和财富的最快途径。

And for a lot of people, it is.

对于很多人来说，确实如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

My sister-in-law is a kindergarten teacher.

我的嫂子是一名幼儿园老师。

She has a girl in her class who has over a million followers on YouTube as a kindergartner.

她班上有一个女孩，在幼儿园时就在 YouTube 上拥有超过 100 万粉丝。

That didn't exist when you and I were kids, or it was so rare.

当你和我还是孩子的时候，这种情况并不存在，或者说非常罕见。

But now, enough people know stories like that.

但现在，有足够多的人知道这样的故事。

Even if there are few of them, enough people know stories to give you the sense of hope of like, "Well, if they could do it, I could do it, too."

即使这样的人很少，但有足够多的人知道故事，会给你一种希望的感觉，“好吧，如果他们能做到，我也能做到。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Well, I'll tell everyone out there that if you think that fame is what you want, fame restricts your freedom.

好吧，我告诉大家，如果你认为名声就是你想要的，名声就会限制你的自由。

It does not increase your freedom.

它不会增加你的自由。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

There's a great quote from Naval where he says, "What you want to be is rich and anonymous." That's the sweet spot that you want to be.

海军有一句名言，他说：“你想成为的人是富有而匿名的。”这就是你想要的甜蜜点。

The opposite, you are poor and famous.

相反，你贫穷却出名。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

And that's the hardest spot to be in.

这是最难的地方。

But if you can be rich and anonymous, because I think there's a really important concept with money that I call social debt, which is when the money that you have influences, it changes how other people think of you, and even maybe how you think about yourself.

但如果你可以变得富有并且匿名，因为我认为金钱有一个非常重要的概念，我称之为社会债务，即当你拥有的金钱产生影响时，它会改变其他人对你的看法，甚至可能改变你对自己的看法。

And you can measure your asset.

您可以衡量您的资产。

It's not actually debt.

其实并不是债务。

It's not like debt you repay the bank, but it is very much a debt in terms of it is an anchor on your happiness that you have to repay.

这不像你偿还银行的债务，但它在很大程度上是一笔债务，因为它是你必须偿还的幸福的锚。

And fame is the ultimate social debt.

名誉是最终的社会债务。

And for a lot of people, their social debt of fame is more than the money that they made from whatever made them famous to begin with.

对于很多人来说，他们的名声所带来的社会债务不仅仅是他们从一开始就出名的事情中赚到的钱。

And there's this anecdote from Tiger Woods where he said he loves scuba diving because when he's 100 feet under the ocean is the only time in the world where people aren't taking pictures of him and asking things of him and gawking at him.

老虎伍兹有这样一个轶事，他说他喜欢水肺潜水，因为当他在海底 100 英尺的时候，这是世界上唯一人们不会给他拍照、问他事情、盯着他看的时候。

That sucks.

太糟糕了。

Not that you have a lot of sympathy for somebody like that, but it does suck.

并不是说你对这样的人有很多同情，但这确实很糟糕。

You can measure his net worth very quickly.

你可以很快地衡量他的净资产。

What's your net worth?

您的净资产是多少？

Just show me the number.

只需告诉我号码即可。

How do you measure the liability of feeling like you have no privacy unless you are scuba diving?

如果你不潜水，你会如何衡量自己没有隐私的感觉？

That's a hard thing.

这是一件很难的事情。

And at various levels, a lot of people have that.

在不同的层面上，很多人都有这样的经历。

Even if you earn a modest income, and all of a sudden, your friends, your family starts saying, "Hey, I heard you got a raise.

即使你的收入微薄，突然间，你的朋友、家人开始说：“嘿，我听说你加薪了。

I could use a little bit myself." That's a social debt.

我自己也可以用一点。”这就是社会债务。

They want you to pay at dinner and whatnot.

他们要你付晚餐之类的钱。

And for maybe you're happy to do that, you're happy to share it.

也许你很乐意这样做，你很乐意分享它。

But let's not pretend that there's not a little bit of social debt and liability that comes with every added amount of income that you have.

但我们不要假装你每增加一份收入就不会带来一点社会债务和责任。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So much of social media is just by definition in terms of the number of followers being displayed, et cetera, number of likes and comments being displayed is designed to set up these metrics of comparison.

很多社交媒体只是按照显示的关注者数量来定义，等等，显示的点赞和评论数量旨在建立这些比较指标。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah, the smartest minds of the generation work at Facebook and Instagram and Twitter to figure out how to give you FOMO, how to generate a little bit more dopamine, and they're very good at it.

是的，这一代人中最聪明的人在 Facebook、Instagram 和 Twitter 上工作，想办法让你避免 FOMO，如何产生更多的多巴胺，他们非常擅长这些。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to take a quick break and thank one of our sponsors, Function.

我想稍微休息一下，并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。

I recently became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.

在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我最近成为了 Function 成员。

While I've long been a fan of blood testing, I really wanted to find a more in-depth program for analyzing blood, urine, and saliva to get a full picture of my heart health, my hormone status, my immune system regulation, my metabolic function, my vitamin and mineral status, and other critical areas of my overall health and vitality.

虽然我长期以来一直热衷于血液检测，但我真的很想找到一个更深入的程序来分析血液、尿液和唾液，以全面了解我的心脏健康状况、我的激素状态、我的免疫系统调节、我的代谢功能、我的维生素和矿物质状态以及我整体健康和活力的其他关键领域。

Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors on your results.

Function 不仅提供对身心健康至关重要的 100 多种生物标志物的测试，还分析这些结果并提供顶级医生对结果的见解。

For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had too high levels of mercury in my blood.

例如，在我第一次使用 Function 进行测试时，我发现我的血液中汞含量过高。

This was totally surprising to me.

这让我完全惊讶。

I had no idea prior to taking the test.

参加考试之前我不知道。

Function not only helped me detect this, but offered medical doctor informed insights on how to best reduce those mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption because I had been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, N-acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification and worked to reduce my mercury levels.

功能不仅帮助我发现了这一点，还为医生提供了如何最好地降低汞含量的见解，其中包括限制我的金枪鱼摄入量，因为我一直在吃大量金枪鱼​​，同时还努力吃更多的绿叶蔬菜并补充 NAC、N-乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都可以支持谷胱甘肽的产生和解毒，并有助于降低我的汞含量。

Comprehensive lab testing like this is so important for health, and while I've been doing it for years, I've always found it to be overly complicated and expensive.

像这样的综合实验室测试对健康非常重要，虽然我已经这样做了很多年，但我总是发现它过于复杂和昂贵。

I've been so impressed by Function, both at the level of ease of use, that is getting the test done, as well as how comprehensive and how actionable the tests are, that I recently joined their advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.

Function 给我留下了深刻的印象，无论是在易用性方面，还是在完成测试方面，以及测试的全面性和可操作性方面，我最近加入了他们的顾问委员会，我很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。

If you'd like to try Function, go to functionhealth.com/huberman.

如果您想尝试 Function，请访问 functionhealth.com/huberman。

Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman Lab listeners.

Function 目前有超过 250,000 人的等待名单，但他们正在为 Huberman Lab 听众提供早期访问机会。

Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.

同样，可以通过 functionhealth.com/huberman 提前访问 Function。

One thing that I wish somebody would do, maybe it's been done, is you mentioned earlier this not typical but I guess, semi-common thing of an article will come out and say, "The five things that people say on their deathbed," and they look back and they mention that they wish they'd spent less time at work.

我希望有人会做的一件事，也许已经完成了，你之前提到过，这并不典型，但我想，一篇文章中半常见的事情会说，“人们临终时说的五件事”，然后他们回顾过去，他们提到他们希望自己花更少的时间在工作上。

They wish they'd spent more time with their kids, or more time in nature, perhaps.

他们希望自己能花更多的时间陪伴孩子，或者更多的时间接触大自然。

Has anyone ever just asked people directly what were the things that they are most proud of or the things that they really feel brought them tremendous meaning then and as they're passing away?

有没有人直接问过人们，他们最引以为傲的事情是什么，或者他们真正觉得在他们去世时和去世时给他们带来巨大意义的事情是什么？

Because it's related, but it's kind of the inverse of the same question.

因为它是相关的，但它是同一个问题的反面。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Warren Buffett brought this up one time.

沃伦·巴菲特曾经提到过这一点。

He said a good way to think about life is, it's kind of grim, but he said, "Write what you want your obituary to say, and then work backwards to live up to it." And in that situation, if you were to write, what do you want your obituary to say?

他说，思考生活的一个好方法是，它有点残酷，但他说，“写下你想让讣告说的话，然后向后努力去实现它。”在这种情况下，如果你要写，你希望讣告写什么？

Most people would say, "Oh, I hope it says Morgan was a good father.

大多数人会说：“哦，我希望它说摩根是一个好父亲。

He was a good husband.

他是一个好丈夫。

He helped his community.

他帮助了他的社区。

He was admired by his coworkers." That's what I want it to say.

他受到同事们的钦佩。”这就是我想说的。

And for a lot of people, it's different for everyone, but it'd be something like that.

对于很多人来说，每个人的情况都不一样，但都会是这样的。

And why Buffett said it was important is because nobody who's writing their preferred obituary would include the size of their house, how many horsepower their car had, how nice their clothes were.

巴菲特之所以说这很重要，是因为在写自己喜欢的讣告时，没有人会写出他们的房子大小、他们的汽车有多少马力、他们的衣服有多漂亮。

Because everybody knows it doesn't matter.

因为大家都知道这并不重要。

And it's like, I forget who made this idea.

就像，我忘了是谁提出了这个主意。

There's a thing between resume virtues and eulogy virtues.

简历美德和悼词美德之间存在着某种东西。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, that was David Brooks.

是的，那是大卫·布鲁克斯。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

David Brooks said that.

大卫·布鲁克斯如是说。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Resume virtues are how much money you make, your degrees, everything.

简历的美德是你赚了多少钱、你的学位、一切。

Eulogy virtues is, he was a great father, he was a great friend, he helped his community, he was funny.

悼词的美德是，他是一位伟大的父亲，他是一位伟大的朋友，他帮助了他的社区，他很有趣。

And I think most people really aspire to have eulogy virtues, but they spend all their day chasing resume virtues.

我认为大多数人确实渴望拥有悼词美德，但他们整天都在追求简历美德。

Resume virtues can be great.

简历的美德可以是伟大的。

I want a good education.

我想要良好的教育。

I want a good income.

我想要一份好的收入。

But what you're really trying to chase is to use those things to gain more resume virtues at the end of the day.

但你真正想要追求的是利用这些东西在一天结束时获得更多的简历美德。

So I think if you think about it through that lens, a lot of these things become clear.

所以我认为，如果你从这个角度思考，很多事情都会变得清晰。

And that's why, like I said, going on a great vacation with my kids, if that's a 10, what's really fun about that is spending time with them when I'm detached from work.

这就是为什么，就像我说的，和我的孩子们一起去度过一个愉快的假期，如果这是10，那么真正有趣的是当我脱离工作时与他们共度时光。

I'm not checking my phone every seven seconds.

我不会每七秒查看一次手机。

I'm just spending hours with my kids, giving them my full attention.

我只是花几个小时和我的孩子们在一起，给予他们全部的注意力。

That's what made me happy.

这就是让我高兴的原因。

The view was great on the beach, cool, but that's what made me happy, and I can do that at home, can't I?

海滩上的景色很棒，很酷，但这就是让我快乐的原因，我可以在家里做，不是吗？

And so that's the difference between, like going to Maui is a resume virtue.

这就是区别，就像去毛伊岛是一种简历美德。

Spending time with your kids is a eulogy virtue.

与孩子共度时光是一种悼词美德。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Why is it, do you think, that even though we've perhaps all heard by now that compounding interest is great, right?

您认为，为什么我们现在可能都听说复利很大，对吗？

You put in, let's say, a small or a moderate amount of money into even just a savings account that's accruing a couple percent.

比方说，您将少量或中等金额的资金存入一个储蓄账户，该账户的利息会增加几个百分点。

It varies year by year and with the economy, of course, or into the markets that over time, if you, quote, unquote, "set it and forget it," just kind of like put it there and walk away, that you're likely to make X percent over time.

当然，它每年都会随着经济的变化而变化，或者随着时间的推移，如果你引用、取消引用、“设置它然后忘记它”，就像把它放在那里然后走开一样，随着时间的推移，你可能会赚取 X%。

And you can look at the plot.

你可以看看情节。

You can look at that line upward and to the right, and almost always this jagged line drifting upward to the right, and even just scroll over and see, okay, at age whatever, I'm going to have X number of dollars.

你可以向上和向右看那条线，几乎总是这条锯齿线向上向右漂移，甚至只是滚动并看到，好吧，无论年龄如何，我都会有 X 美元。

And that value is often very high relative to where one's current wealth is, even if they're a student or they have very little put away.

相对于一个人当前的财富而言，这个价值通常非常高，即使他们是学生或者他们的储蓄很少。

We all hear this.

我们都听到这个。

We can see it.

我们可以看到它。

You can run the models.

您可以运行模型。

It's almost trivial.

这几乎是微不足道的。

And yet people don't do that even if they have the income to save.

然而，即使人们有足够的收入可以储蓄，他们也不会这样做。

Is it that hard for us to project our emotional state and the sorts of things that we integrate in terms of life meaning and value into the future, that most people just don't do that?

对我们来说，将我们的情绪状态以及我们在生活意义和价值方面融入未来的事物很难投射到未来，而大多数人只是不这样做吗？

And why do you think that is?

你认为这是为什么？

I mean, I'm not asking you to play neurobiologist here.

我的意思是，我并不是要求你在这里扮演神经生物学家。

I think we both agree that time perception is a complicated thing.

我想我们都同意时间感知是一件复杂的事情。

But you would think that people would just sort of get it, but we're not rational.

但你可能会认为人们会理解它，但我们并不理性。

Most people aren't rational in that way.

大多数人在这方面并不理性。

They don't save, they don't invest, and they don't compound interest, and so they end up with a lot less money than they could have, and a lot more regret.

他们不储蓄，不投资，也不复利，因此他们最终得到的钱比他们本来可以拥有的少得多，而且也有更多的遗憾。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

I think there's two ways to think about this.

我认为有两种方式来思考这个问题。

One is my friend Michael Batnick phrased it this way.

其中之一是我的朋友迈克尔·巴特尼克这样表述的。

He said, "If I ask you what is eight plus eight plus eight plus eight, you can figure that out in five seconds.

他说：“如果我问你八加八加八加八等于多少，你五秒钟就能算出来。

That's an easy one.

这是一件容易的事。

If I said, what is eight times eight times eight times eight times eight, even if you're a math nerd, it's too hard.

如果我说，八乘八乘八乘八乘八是多少，即使你是一个数学呆子，也太难了。

You can't figure it out." We're not wired for exponential thinking.

你无法弄清楚。”我们不擅长指数思维。

We just can't do it.

我们就是做不到。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

And therefore, even if you show you the numbers, "Hey, invest a small amount, retire with a million dollars," I think it's so counterintuitive that most people see that and you're like, "Eh, okay, that doesn't really seem right." It doesn't really pass the sniff test, how big the numbers can get, how quickly the numbers can get big.

因此，即使你向你展示这些数字，“嘿，投资少量，带着一百万美元退休”，我认为这非常违反直觉，大多数人看到这一点，你会说，“呃，好吧，这看起来不太正确。”它并没有真正通过嗅探测试，数字可以变得多大，数字可以多快变大。

The other thing is, if you tell a young person, "Hey, you have 50 years in front of you to invest.

另一件事是，如果你告诉一个年轻人，“嘿，你还有 50 年的时间可以投资。

That's great.

太好了。

Time's on your side.

时间站在你这边。

When you're 70 years old, you're going to have $10 million." 50 years from now might as well be 10,000 years from now.

当你70岁时，你将拥有1000万美元。” 50 年后也可能是 10,000 年后。

You're talking about people who don't know what they're going to eat for dinner tonight, and you're talking about like, "Hey, let's talk about the year 2077." Like, it's so far out of there.

你谈论的是那些不知道今晚晚餐要吃什么的人，你谈论的是“嘿，我们来谈谈 2077 年”。就像，它离那里很远。

Even if that's the right way to think about it, it's a tough way to think about it.

即使这是正确的思考方式，但也是一种艰难的思考方式。

And time perception, you mentioned, is so difficult for people.

你提到的时间感知对于人们来说是如此困难。

If I said, "You're going to get punched in the face in 10 seconds," like that's a fear, and you're like, "Oh, I don't..." But if I said, "Someone's going to punch you in the face 50 years from now," like, "Eh, I'll deal with it when I get there." It's so easy to put out of sight, out of mind.

如果我说，“10 秒后你的脸就会被打一拳”，那就是一种恐惧，你会说，“哦，我不……”但如果我说，“50 年后有人会打你的脸”，就像，“呃，我到了那里就会处理它。”它很容易被人们遗忘、遗忘。

And the other thing is, Warren Buffett talked about this a lot.

另一件事是，沃伦·巴菲特多次谈到这一点。

He said, actually, it was Charlie Munger who said this.

他说，其实这句话是查理芒格说的。

He said, "When teaching finance to young people, people either understand it instantly or never."

他说：“向年轻人教授金融知识时，人们要么立即理解，要么永远不会理解。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

It's like some people are just wired to get it and some people aren't, and that's always been the case.

就好像有些人天生就能获得它，而有些人则不然，而且情况一直如此。

Munger often said all the time, he said, "The iron rule of math is only 1% of people can end up in the top 1%." And that's why for a lot of people, yes, you should save and invest for 50 years.

芒格一直常说，“数学的铁律就是只有1%的人最终能进入前1%”。这就是为什么对很多人来说，是的，你应该储蓄和投资 50 年。

Let's not pretend that that is easy or that everybody is psychologically able to do it.

我们不要假装这很容易，或者每个人在心理上都能做到。

Some people are wired differently, of course that's the case, as they are with health and intelligence and lots of other things.

当然，有些人的连接方式有所不同，就像他们在健康、智力以及许多其他事物上的连接方式一样。

So I do think there's a thing for financial education, way of getting people to understand what is possible.

所以我确实认为金融教育是有道理的，它可以让人们了解什么是可能的。

But I don't think we'll ever live in a world where everyone gets it and does it.

但我不认为我们会生活在一个每个人都明白并去做的世界。

That world has never existed, and I think will never exist, because it's not math.

那个世界从来不存在，我想也永远不会存在，因为它不是数学。

It's not a spreadsheet.

这不是电子表格。

It's behavior.

这是行为。

And we now live in a world where we understand the dangers of smoking and highly processed foods and whatever it might be.

我们现在生活在一个了解吸烟和高度加工食品以及其他任何可能的危险的世界。

But even if we know it, people still do it because it's behavioral.

但即使我们知道这一点，人们仍然会这样做，因为这是行为。

It's not intelligence.

这不是智力。

So showing people the numbers and getting them to do it is night and day.

因此，向人们展示这些数字并让他们去做是不分昼夜的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Do you know how they got people to stop smoking, in particular young people?

您知道他们如何让人们，特别是年轻人戒烟吗？

It wasn't by scaring them about their health.

这并不是因为他们的健康问题而吓唬他们。

Turns out the most effective campaign to get especially young people to stop smoking was to hijack the inherent rebellion of youth and to display ads of wealthy older people in rooms full of smoke.

事实证明，让年轻人尤其是年轻人戒烟的最有效的运动是利用年轻人固有的叛逆心理，在充满烟雾的房间里展示富有的老年人的广告。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Ooh.

哦。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So it became us as the youth rebelling against them, the older generation that are trying to take our money.

因此，我们这些年轻人反抗他们，老一代人试图拿走我们的钱。

It had nothing to do with health.

这与健康无关。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

I love that.

我喜欢那个。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And it absolutely worked.

这绝对有效。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I have friends that work on this sort of thing in the context of public health as it relates to all sorts of public health initiatives.

我有一些朋友在公共卫生领域从事此类工作，因为它与各种公共卫生举措相关。

And the effective way to change human behavior as it relates to health is to incentivize aesthetics, to incentivize fear, or to hijack fear of dying.

改变与健康相关的人类行为的有效方法是激励审美、激励恐惧或劫持对死亡的恐惧。

But even fear of dying is not sufficient as compared to hijacking these cross-generational, let's just call them frictions that exist.

但与劫持这些跨代人相比，即使是对死亡的恐惧也是不够的，我们姑且称其为存在的摩擦吧。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So I found that to be interesting.

所以我发现这很有趣。

You used a math example of eight plus eight plus eight plus eight versus eight times eight times eight times eight.

您使用了八加八加八加八与八乘八乘八乘八的数学示例。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And you said that the human brain is not capable of exponential thinking, or most people's brains are not capable of exponential thinking.

而你说人脑不具备指数思维能力，或者说大多数人的大脑不具备指数思维能力。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I think you either intentionally or inadvertently hit on something really important.

我认为你有意或无意地发现了一些非常重要的事情。

I don't know that the dopamine reward system, which is the fundamental currency of pursuit and reward-

我不知道多巴胺奖励系统，这是追求和奖励的根本货币——

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

across all timescales.

跨越所有时间尺度。

It's kind of wild, right?

这有点狂野，对吧？

One neuromodulator, and there are other things involved that modulate that modulator, but one neuromodulator is involved in reward pursuit across all timescales.

一种神经调节剂，还有其他东西参与调节该调节剂，但一种神经调节剂参与所有时间尺度的奖励追求。

Whether or not we're playing a-- Let's say we're both competitive enough to play a game of chess or checkers.

无论我们是否正在玩——假设我们都有足够的竞争力来玩国际象棋或西洋跳棋。

Dopamine is motivating the pursuit for the win.

多巴胺会激发人们对胜利的追求。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Or a four-year degree, or an eight-year degree, or why you would want maybe your kids to win a soccer game.

或者四年制学位，或者八年制学位，或者为什么你希望你的孩子赢得一场足球比赛。

Now you're like a third person in dopamine, right?

现在你就像多巴胺中的第三者，对吧？

It's across all timescales, all scenarios.

它跨越所有时间尺度、所有场景。

It's incredible.

太不可思议了。

And across many species.

并且跨越许多物种。

So it makes me wonder, and I'll have to ask some of my colleagues that work on these dopamine reward schedules for a living, whether or not the dopamine reward system actually can do exponential math.

所以这让我想知道，我不得不问一些以这些多巴胺奖励计划为生的同事，多巴胺奖励系统是否真的可以进行指数数学运算。

It might not be able to do exponential math.

它可能无法进行指数数学。

It might be that the pursuit of water, the pursuit of mates, the pursuit of food, the pursuit of shelter, which is what these dopamine circuits evolved under the constraints of, whether or not they are even capable of doing exponential thinking.

可能是对水的追求，对伴侣的追求，对食物的追求，对住所的追求，这就是这些多巴胺回路在约束下进化出来的，无论它们是否能够进行指数思维。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Or if it's like the marshmallow test, which got misconstrued in many ways, but it's like, yeah, would you rather have one right now or two in the future?

或者，如果它就像棉花糖测试一样，它在很多方面都被误解了，但它就像，是的，你愿意现在做一个还是将来做两个？

I think for a lot of people, it's just like they're-- There are some people for whom they're wired so differently for this.

我认为对于很多人来说，就像他们——有些人对此的看法非常不同。

So you hear stories about the old very wealthy people, the old billionaires, when they were 20 years old, they would not get a haircut because they knew that $3 haircut would compound into $100 by the time they were older.

所以你会听到一些关于老非常富有的人、老亿万富翁的故事，当他们20岁时，他们不会理发，因为他们知道当他们长大时，3美元的理发会复合成100美元。

They were just so wired from birth to understand this-

他们从出生起就明白这一点——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

...

...

and to have a very long perception of time to do it.

并且对完成这件事有很长的时间感知。

By definition, that's the rarity.

根据定义，这就是稀缺性。

Most people are not like that.

大多数人不是这样的。

And I don't know if they should be either.

我也不知道他们是否应该如此。

I don't know if you should be the kind of person your entire life who is always saving for a future and never enjoying what you have, too.

我不知道你是否应该成为那种一生都在为未来储蓄却从不享受自己拥有的东西的人。

That could lead to a lot of regret as well.

这也可能会导致很多遗憾。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

And there are those people.

还有那些人。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So let's parse the marshmallow test.

那么让我们来解析一下棉花糖测试。

The marshmallow test, I think initially done at Stanford.

我认为棉花糖测试最初是在斯坦福大学完成的。

I think it was at Bing Nursery School or something like that, or maybe somewhere at Stanford.

我认为是在宾幼儿园或类似的地方，或者可能在斯坦福大学的某个地方。

If I'm wrong, someone will correct me in the comments.

如果我错了，有人会在评论中纠正我。

Of course, for those that don't know, they brought these really cute kids into rooms, and they put the marshmallow in front of them, and they told them they could eat it now, or they could wait, and they could get two marshmallows later.

当然，对于那些不知道的人，他们把这些非常可爱的孩子带进房间，然后把棉花糖放在他们面前，告诉他们现在可以吃，或者可以等一下，稍后他们可以得到两个棉花糖。

And then they videotaped them, and the videos are absolutely delightful of the kids-

然后他们把他们录了下来，视频绝对让孩子们开心——

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

like distracting themselves or having the marshmallows talk or taking a little piece of the marshmallows.

比如分散自己的注意力，或者让棉花糖说话，或者吃一小块棉花糖。

It reveals as much variation on human self-constraint behavior as you could possibly imagine, and they're really interesting, as you know.

它揭示了人类自我约束行为的尽可能多的变化，正如你所知，它们真的很有趣。

I would like to know whether the children that were able to wait and therefore get two marshmallows were trying to resist the temptation-

我想知道那些能够等待并因此得到两块棉花糖的孩子们是否在努力抵制诱惑——

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

or whether or not they were being pulled forward by the anticipation of two marshmallows.

或者他们是否因为期待两块棉花糖而被拉着向前。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

My understanding, and maybe this is not complete, but my understanding, at least part of it, was neither of those two things.

我的理解，也许这并不完整，但我的理解，至少部分理解，不是这两件事。

The kids who did the best and resisted it were the ones who distracted themselves.

那些做得最好并抵制它的孩子是那些分散自己注意力的人。

They weren't even thinking about the marshmallow.

他们甚至没有想到棉花糖。

They would sing a song.

他们会唱一首歌。

They would start playing with their shoes.

他们会开始玩鞋子。

They'd play with another kid.

他们会和另一个孩子一起玩。

And the ones who could not resist were the ones who just sat there staring at the one marshmallow that was tempting them.

而那些无法抗拒的人，只是坐在那里，盯着那一颗诱人的棉花糖。

That's too hard to resist.

这太难以抗拒了。

Almost everybody will resist that.

几乎每个人都会抵制这一点。

It was like the environment that they put themselves in.

这就像他们自己置身其中的环境一样。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But they weren't thinking into the future about how great it would be to have two marshmallows.

但他们并没有想到未来拥有两块棉花糖该有多好。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

I don't think so.

我不这么认为。

I think they were so-- Because they're kids, they're so distracted.

我认为他们是如此——因为他们是孩子，他们太心烦意乱了。

They have the memory of a goldfish.

他们有金鱼的记忆力。

They wanted to just go do something.

他们只想去做点什么。

They'd sing a song.

他们会唱一首歌。

They'd play with their shoes.

他们会玩鞋子。

They'd play with their friends.

他们会和朋友一起玩。

And then by dint of doing that, all of a sudden, they had waited long enough to get the two marshmallows.

就这样，突然之间，他们等了足够长的时间才拿到了两块棉花糖。

I think that was at least part of it.

我认为这至少是其中的一部分。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Interesting.

有趣。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

And I think that's true for a lot of people, too.

我认为对于很多人来说也是如此。

Think about the stock market, where so much temptation to always watch it and see what it's doing because we have CNBC, and there's the ticker, and the lights are green and red and whatnot.

想想股票市场，那里有太多的诱惑让人们一直关注它，看看它在做什么，因为我们有 CNBC，还有股票行情，灯是绿灯、红灯等等。

For a lot of people, it's impossible to watch that.

对于很多人来说，这是不可能的。

Or even worse, in Robinhood, you get a push notification on your phone.

或者更糟糕的是，在 Robinhood 中，您会在手机上收到推送通知。

That's too hard to resist.

这太难以抗拒了。

But you know where you see very good investing behavior, where people do a really good job, is when you invest automatically every paycheck into your 401 and you forgot your password.

但你知道，当你自动将每一笔薪水投资到你的 401 中，而你忘记了密码时，你会看到非常好的投资行为，人们做得非常好。

Because that environment is against temptation.

因为那个环境是抵制诱惑的。

There's nothing to do.

无事可做。

You forgot your password.

您忘记了密码。

But if you're just bombarding yourself with stimulus of what to do, most people cannot resist that.

但如果你只是用做什么的刺激来轰炸自己，大多数人都无法抗拒。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

My way of dealing with social media, I would say compulsion, not addiction, is I now one could take an old phone.

我处理社交媒体的方式，我想说的是强迫，而不是成瘾，是我现在可以拿一部旧手机。

I actually got a phone specifically for social media.

我实际上有一部专门用于社交媒体的手机。

So I have Instagram and X on that phone.

所以我的手机上有 Instagram 和 X。

I don't even recall the number of that phone.

我什至不记得那部电话的号码。

I AirDrop things onto it if I want to post, and I do what Rogan calls post and ghost.

如果我想发帖，我会将东西空投到上面，我会做罗根所说的“发帖和幽灵”。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So you post, and then it goes into a box.

所以你发帖，然后它就会被放进一个盒子里。

Because otherwise, I'm just absolutely blown away by how much time can be sucked away.

否则的话，我会被浪费了多少时间而震惊。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

All of it.

所有这一切。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You tell yourself, "I'm going to just look at social media for a moment," and then you're pulled down some rabbit hole.

你告诉自己，“我只想看一下社交媒体”，然后你就被拉进了某个兔子洞。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's just incredible the way they've designed these algorithms to get you.

他们设计这些算法来吸引你的方式真是令人难以置信。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And of course, I like social media.

当然，我喜欢社交媒体。

I teach on social media.

我在社交媒体上教学。

This conversation will probably be, fragments of it will be on social media.

这场对话的片段可能会出现在社交媒体上。

But I think that people don't realize how compulsion-inducing the dopamine circuitry is.

但我认为人们并没有意识到多巴胺回路是如何产生强迫性的。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And once you start getting pulled down it, you're a different organism altogether.

一旦你开始被拉低，你就完全是一个不同的有机体了。

And it's not a coincidence that the people who have the largest social media accounts spend very little time on social media.

拥有最大社交媒体帐户的人在社交媒体上花费的时间很少，这并非巧合。

This is-

这是——

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Because if you spend too much, it just gets overwhelming.

因为如果你花费太多，就会变得不堪重负。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, you're spending time doing things like commenting and liking-

好吧，你花时间做诸如评论和点赞之类的事情——

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and there's a liability to some of that, but there's a reward to it, too, an immediate reward.

其中有些是有责任的，但也有回报，即刻的回报。

What you're not doing is going and doing the thing that you bring to social media that brings you more followers and views.

你没有做的就是去做你带到社交媒体上的事情，为你带来更多的关注者和观点。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So I always think of social media as that last point in a funnel where I go do things in real life, like research papers, talk to people, learn, and then organize that learning into a format that I think people can benefit from-

所以我一直认为社交媒体是漏斗中的最后一点，我可以在现实生活中做一些事情，比如研究论文、与人交谈、学习，然后将学习组织成一种我认为人们可以从中受益的形式——

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and then put it on social media.

然后将其发布到社交媒体上。

But that's the endpoint.

但这就是终点。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And so if I stay too long there, then I'm not getting more material.

因此，如果我在那里呆得太久，我就不会得到更多的材料。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's almost like if I were a farmer, this is like once the crops ship, I'm not going to stand there just looking at the road as the truck goes by-

这几乎就像如果我是一个农民，这就像一旦农作物发货，我不会站在那儿看着卡车经过的路——

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

You've got to plow the field

你必须耕田

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

away.

离开。

Yeah, you've got to get back and plant more seeds-

是的，你必须回去播种更多的种子-

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and plow the field.

并耕田。

So I like to think about these things in these very basic terms because I feel that the dopamine circuitry, it hasn't evolved.

所以我喜欢用这些非常基本的术语来思考这些事情，因为我觉得多巴胺回路还没有进化。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right?

对吗？

But we have new technologies that have hijacked it to some extent.

但我们的新技术在某种程度上劫持了它。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Jerry Seinfeld said one of the reason he quit his show in the 1990s was because what made it so good and so funny is that he and Larry David would go sit in a deli and watch people order and make a joke.

杰里·宋飞 (Jerry Seinfeld) 表示，他在 20 世纪 90 年代退出节目的原因之一是，节目之所以如此出色、如此有趣，是因为他和拉里·大卫 (Larry David) 会坐在熟食店里，看着人们点餐并开玩笑。

That's where they got their content from, was observing the world.

这就是他们获取内容的来源，即观察世界。

But they got so busy and so famous that they couldn't do that anymore, and he knew that it was going to come at the detriment of the show, that it wasn't the ultimate reward of how big was the season, how many people watched the show, how much money did we make?

但他们变得如此忙碌、如此出名，以至于他们不能再这样做了，他知道这将以损害节目的利益为代价，这不是最终的回报，因为这一季有多大，有多少人观看了节目，我们赚了多少钱？

What made them great was going out and living and doing their thing, and once it came at the expense of that, it didn't work anymore.

让他们变得伟大的是出去生活、做自己的事情，一旦以牺牲这些为代价，那就不再有效了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, this raises a really key point for people, including myself, which is, in an ideal world, one can make a living that is sufficient for their needs doing something that you truly enjoy doing.

嗯，这对包括我在内的人们提出了一个非常关键的观点，那就是，在一个理想的世界中，一个人可以做一些你真正喜欢做的事情来谋生，足以满足他们的需要。

Or I would say, to be realistic, where 75% of the activities are pleasurable-

或者我会说，说实话，75% 的活动都是令人愉快的——

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

maybe 15% are kind of neutral, and then the remainder, there's some punishing features.

也许 15% 是中性的，然后剩下的，有一些惩罚性的特征。

There are punishing features in every profession.

每个职业都有惩罚性的特征。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right?

对吗？

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Jeff Bezos said if you can enjoy half, that's pretty good.

杰夫·贝索斯说，如果你能享受一半，那就太好了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

All right.

好的。

So I'm a little more-

所以我多了一点——

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

You are optimistic

你很乐观

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

stringent with my, yeah, I'm more of an optimist than Bezos.

对我很严格，是的，我比贝索斯更乐观。

Hey, I don't-- But then again, he's Bezos.

嘿，我不——但话又说回来，他是贝佐斯。

Yeah.

是的。

You want to be able to enjoy your work.

您希望能够享受您的工作。

Not all aspects of it are going to be pleasurable, but ideally that's the case.

并非所有方面都会令人愉快，但理想情况就是如此。

Because what we're talking about here is effort that precedes dopamine.

因为我们在这里讨论的是先于多巴胺的努力。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I'm a big believer that dopamine that is not preceded by effort is very dangerous.

我坚信，如果不付出努力，多巴胺就会非常危险。

It's not just things that are addictive, but by way of example, methamphetamine, cocaine dramatically and quickly spike dopamine levels.

不仅仅是令人上瘾的东西，例如甲基苯丙胺、可卡因也会急剧增加多巴胺水平。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

With no effort put in.

没有付出任何努力。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

With no effort put in.

没有付出任何努力。

And then, of course, we know from the beautiful work of my colleague, Anna Lembke, and others, that then the dopamine profile is that then the higher the peak and the faster the rise to peak, then the more drop below baseline-

当然，我们从我的同事 Anna Lembke 和其他人的出色工作中得知，多巴胺的分布是峰值越高，达到峰值的速度越快，然后下降到基线以下的程度就越多 -

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and the more time it takes to return to baseline.

返回基线所需的时间也越长。

And typically, what people do is when they're below baseline in terms of their dopamine, that's when they really start hitting the hammer with whatever behavior or substance.

通常，人们所做的事情是当他们的多巴胺低于基线时，那时他们才真正开始用任何行为或物质来击中锤子。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And all it does is drive that baseline further and further and further down.

它所做的只是将基线进一步降低。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Maybe that's a good analogy for the lottery winner who gets a lot of money, a lot of dopamine in this example, but didn't put anything into it.

也许这对于彩票中奖者来说是一个很好的比喻，他得到了很多钱，在这个例子中得到了很多多巴胺，但没有投入任何东西。

You didn't build a business.

你没有建立一个企业。

You didn't work at your career.

你没有在你的职业生涯中工作。

You just got lucky, so it doesn't feel as good.

你只是运气好，所以感觉不太好。

There's no effort put into to base it against.

没有付出任何努力来建立它的基础。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Compare it against what you were talking about before, which is time that's unstructured with your kids playing LEGOs.

将其与您之前谈论的时间进行比较，即您的孩子玩乐高积木的非结构化时间。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It sounds effortless.

听起来毫不费力。

It's not like you're like, "Oh, I've got to go play with my boys' LEGOs." I'm sure that you're like, "Yes, this is fun.

这不像你会说，“哦，我得去玩我孩子们的乐高积木了。”我确信你会说，“是的，这很有趣。

This is the good stuff," as they say.

这是好东西，”正如他们所说。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And so there are forms of reward, it seems, that are not preceded by effort, although you had to raise those kids, and your wife had to-

因此，似乎有些形式的奖励并不需要付出努力，尽管你必须抚养这些孩子，而你的妻子必须——

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

It's tough.

这很难。

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

give birth to those kids, and it's work.

生下这些孩子，这是工作。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But in terms of what's happening in that limited timeframe, it's just so seamless, right?

但就在有限的时间内发生的事情而言，它是如此无缝，对吧？

It's just sheer pleasure, and yet that kind of pleasure is enriching.

这只是纯粹的快乐，但这种快乐是丰富的。

This has me very perplexed.

这让我非常困惑。

As a biologist, I still don't know the underlying mechanisms, but clearly we have multiple paths to pleasure, but I think we have only one path for motivation, and that's dopamine.

作为一名生物学家，我仍然不知道潜在的机制，但显然我们有多种获得快乐的途径，但我认为我们只有一条获得动力的途径，那就是多巴胺。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But I think there are multiple forms of pleasure, and I'm certain that high levels of dopamine that are not preceded by effort are not just bad, they are downright dangerous.

但我认为快乐有多种形式，而且我确信，在没有努力的情况下，高水平的多巴胺不仅是坏事，而且是彻头彻尾的危险。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

I feel like so much of it, too, with parenting, maybe this is a slightly different topic, but it's the things that you're not trying to have fun with that build the biggest memories.

我也觉得在育儿方面也有很多这样的事情，也许这是一个稍微不同的话题，但正是那些你不试图从中获得乐趣的事情才建立了最美好的回忆。

And for me, it's when I travel with my son.

对我来说，就是和儿子一起旅行的时候。

He's nine, so we go on a lot of trips now.

他九岁了，所以我们现在经常去旅行。

What's fun is not the event we're going to, whether it's skiing or a football game.

有趣的不是我们要去参加的活动，无论是滑雪还是足球比赛。

That's not the best part of the trip.

这不是旅行中最好的部分。

The best part of the trip is flying with him, renting a car with him, going out to dinner with him.

旅行中最棒的部分就是和他一起坐飞机，和他一起租车，和他一起出去吃饭。

That's where you get all the memories.

那就是你获得所有记忆的地方。

It's like it's the process of doing it that you're really enjoying that's going to build all the memories, not necessarily the final destination where you're going.

就好像你真正享受做这件事的过程会建立所有的记忆，而不一定是你要去的最终目的地。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

I just want to hover on that for a second because I can think of numerous examples in my life where the best parts of a relationship were like a drive home with someone-

我只想在这个问题上徘徊一秒钟，因为我可以想到我生活中的许多例子，其中一段关系中最好的部分就像和某人开车回家一样——

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

where I'm asleep for part of the time, they're asleep for part of the time, and you get back and you feel like you really did something.

我有一部分时间在睡觉，他们也有一部分时间在睡觉，当你回来时，你会觉得你真的做了一些事情。

There's something bonding about-

有一些联系——

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

traveling with people.

与人一起旅行。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's even in the absence of external input, like you're just, what is that?

即使没有外部输入，就像你只是，那是什么？

It must be something fundamental, some fundamental circuit about journeying with other members of our species.

它一定是一些基本的东西，一些关于与我们物种的其他成员一起旅行的基本循环。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Going through a challenge with someone.

与某人一起经历挑战。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Going through a journey of like, "We did this together.

经历了一段类似的旅程，“我们一起做到了这一点。

We went through it together." I think there's so much of that.

我们一起经历了这一切。”我想这样的事有很多。

If you go on a long hike with somebody, at the top, you want to hug each other, like, we just did that together.

如果你和某人一起进行长途徒步旅行，在山顶，你会想互相拥抱，就像我们刚刚一起做到的那样。

And it's not even about being at the top, it's like the journey you did with each other.

这甚至与处于巅峰无关，这就像你们彼此一起经历的旅程。

It's so cliché, but I think it's true for a lot of things.

这很陈词滥调，但我认为这对很多事情来说都是正确的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And what's that movie with Emile Hirsch where he-- It's a true story about the guy that goes out into the Alaskan wilderness-

埃米尔·赫希 (Emile Hirsch) 主演的那部电影是什么——这是一个关于一个人走进阿拉斯加荒野的真实故事——

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and lives on that bus, and sadly, he passes away there.

住在那辆公共汽车上，不幸的是，他在那里去世了。

I just spoiled it for you.

我只是把它宠坏了。

But he has, I think it's called "Into the Wild."

但他做到了，我想这就是所谓的“进入荒野”。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

"Into the Wild," yeah.

“走进荒野”，是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

"Into the Wild," where he's obsessed with this notion of bonding with nature.

在《走进荒野》中，他痴迷于与自然联系的概念。

But then in his journal, a real journal of a guy that really died out there, he gets to the realization that the fundamental pursuit in life is to experience things with other people.

但后来在他的日记中，一本真正死去的人的日记中，他意识到生活的基本追求是与其他人一起体验事物。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

With other people, absolutely.

和其他人在一起，绝对如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

And this is why solitary confinement is such a torture.

这就是为什么单独监禁是一种折磨。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Ugh.

呃。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

The extreme end of it.

它的极端。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Brutal.

残酷。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Brutal.

残酷。

On the other end of the spectrum, there's freedom.

另一方面，还有自由。

So let's talk about freedom.

那么我们来谈谈自由吧。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It means different things to different people, but certainly one does not want to be enslaved by anything, including their own pursuit of work.

这对不同的人来说意味着不同的事情，但当然，一个人不想被任何事情所奴役，包括他们自己对工作的追求。

So there, I think, at least two forms of anti-freedom.

因此，我认为至少有两种形式的反自由。

One would be the type that exists within our head.

一种是存在于我们头脑中的类型。

We have to continue on this track because I'm afraid of failure, or I'm in pursuit of something, and we are actually enslaved in a way that we sort of create for ourselves in the act of pursuit.

我们必须继续走这条路，因为我害怕失败，或者我在追求某些东西，而我们实际上被某种方式所奴役，这种方式是我们在追求的过程中为自己创造的。

The other is the job where it's providing resources, but we really don't need to be there, and yet people don't hop off the train.

另一种是提供资源的工作，但我们确实不需要在那里，但人们不会跳下火车。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They could.

他们可以。

They could escape the dreaded boss or the dreaded circumstance.

他们可以逃离可怕的老板或可怕的环境。

I remember a time when all I wanted was a window at work that opened for fresh air.

我记得有一段时间，我想要的只是工作时打开一扇窗户，呼吸新鲜空气。

That's all I wanted.

这就是我想要的。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Mobile.

移动。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Out of all these other things, I just wanted a window that opened.

在所有这些其他事情中，我只想要一扇打开的窗户。

I even tried to find one of these little saws to saw, but then the maintenance people, or the whatever, the facilities people told me I'd get in trouble.

我什至试图找到一把小锯子来锯，但后来维修人员，或者其他设施人员告诉我，我会遇到麻烦。

We yearn for freedom.

我们向往自由。

We hate enslavement-

我们讨厌奴役——

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

for all the obvious reasons.

出于所有显而易见的原因。

In your observation, what is the best way to frame this need for freedom?

根据您的观察，表达这种自由需求的最佳方式是什么？

And I have to imagine that people listening are at various points along their careers.

我必须想象倾听的人处于职业生涯的不同阶段。

What have you observed here, in yourself and with other people you talk to?

在这里，您在自己以及与您交谈的其他人身上观察到了什么？

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Wealthy, not wealthy.

是有钱，不是有钱。

What is freedom?

什么是自由？

How do we get real freedom?

我们如何获得真正的自由？

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

I think there's this anecdote that I love, which was from Franklin Roosevelt when he was a kid.

我想有一个我喜欢的轶事，是富兰克林·罗斯福小时候讲的。

I think he was five years old.

我想他当时五岁。

He complained to his mother one day.

有一天，他向母亲抱怨。

He said, "My entire life is rules and schedules, and I hate it." So his mom said, "Okay, Frankie, tomorrow you can do whatever you want.

他说：“我的整个生活都是规则和时间表，我讨厌它。”所以他妈妈说：“好吧，弗兰基，明天你可以做任何你想做的事。

The day is yours, anything you want." And his mom, Sara Roosevelt, wrote in her diary that night.

这一天是你的，你想要什么都可以。”那天晚上，他的妈妈萨拉·罗斯福在日记中写道。

He said, "That day that he could do anything, he went back to his normal schedule." He did everything on schedule like he was supposed to do, but he was much happier because nobody was telling him to do it.

他说：“那天他可以做任何事情，他又回到了正常的日程。”他按计划做了所有事情，就像他应该做的那样，但他更高兴，因为没有人告诉他这样做。

And I think that's what's true for a lot of people.

我认为这对很多人来说都是如此。

Freedom does not mean you do nothing.

自由并不意味着你什么都不做。

It doesn't necessarily mean you retire.

这并不一定意味着您退休。

It doesn't mean you quit working.

这并不意味着你要放弃工作。

I want to be free and independent, which means I want to wake up every morning and say, "I can do whatever the hell I want today," even if most mornings what I want to do is work and be productive and put myself to use.

我想要自由和独立，这意味着我想要每天早上醒来并说，“我今天可以做任何我想做的事情”，即使大多数早上我想做的是工作，提高工作效率，让自己发挥作用。

So I think a lot of people misconstrue freedom as, I'm going to ride off into the sunset and do nothing now.

所以我认为很多人对自由的误解是，我现在要骑着马奔向夕阳，什么也不做。

It's like, no. I think people have an inherent drive to want to be productive and social and do things.

就像，不。我认为人们有一种内在的动力想要变得高效、社交和做事。

But there's a big difference between your boss telling you to do it and doing it on your own terms.

但是你的老板告诉你这样做和按照你自己的方式去做之间有很大的区别。

When I was a junior in college, like a lot of young men, I wanted to be an investment banker.

当我还是一名大学三年级学生时，像许多年轻人一样，我想成为一名投资银行家。

That's what looked like power and prestige.

这就是看起来的权力和威望。

So I got this investment banking internship, and it was absolutely miserable.

所以我得到了这个投行实习机会，绝对是惨不忍睹的。

They had this saying that is so funny in hindsight.

他们有这样一句话，事后看来非常有趣。

They said, "If you don't come to work on Saturday, don't bother coming back on Sunday." Like, just the culture of it was work 100 hours a week.

他们说：“如果你周六不来上班，周日就不用回来了。”就像，它的文化就是每周工作 100 小时。

Just go nuts with it.

就疯狂吧。

And I hated it.

我讨厌它。

I hated every single second of it, and I had to leave.

我讨厌这里的每一秒，我不得不离开。

But it wasn't because I was not into hard work.

但这并不是因为我不努力工作。

I think I was absolutely willing to work hard.

我想我是绝对愿意努力工作的。

I just didn't want anyone telling me to do it.

我只是不想让任何人告诉我这样做。

And so when I became not necessarily financially independent, but I could have a job, it was more entrepreneurial, it was like, oh, I will work very hard.

因此，当我不一定在经济上独立，但我可以找到一份工作时，它更具创业精神，就像，哦，我会非常努力地工作。

And sometimes I might work as hard as an investment banker.

有时我可能会像投资银行家一样努力工作。

I might work 80 hours a week, but it's on my terms.

我可能每周工作 80 小时，但这是我的条件。

And I think everyone is way more willing to do that than they are to be told what to do.

我认为每个人都更愿意这样做，而不是被告知要做什么。

I think that is an inherent human driver.

我认为这是人类固有的驱动力。

And if you can use your money for independence to where you can wake up and say, "I have the financial flexibility to work where I want, live where I want, retire when I want, take a different job, move to a different department, even if it's going to pay less." That giving yourself independence and autonomy, I think for most people is what's going to drive.

如果你能用你的钱获得独立，你就能在醒来时说：“我有财务灵活性，可以在我想要的地方工作，在我想要的地方生活，在我想要的时候退休，从事不同的工作，调到不同的部门，即使薪水会更少。”我认为对于大多数人来说，给予自己独立性和自主权才是驱动力。

That's the highest tool that you can use with money.

这是你可以用金钱来使用的最高工具。

And what's important about that is where do you get independence with money?

重要的是你从哪里获得金钱独立？

It's the things you don't spend money on.

就是那些你不花钱的东西。

It's the car you didn't buy.

这辆车不是你买的。

It's the house you didn't buy.

这房子不是你买的。

And most people will view that as idle money.

大多数人会认为这是闲钱。

You're saving up money.

你正在存钱。

It's just sitting in the bank doing nothing.

只是坐在银行里什么也不做。

No, it's giving you independence.

不，它给了你独立性。

And once you view it as like every dollar that you don't spend is money that you are actually spending on independence, it's not idle.

一旦你认为你没有花的每一块钱都是你实际上花在独立上的钱，它就不是闲着的。

It's giving you marginal more independence than you had the day before.

它给了你比前一天更多的独立性。

To me, that's why I save money.

对我来说，这就是我省钱的原因。

I'm not saving money because I'm a pessimist, I think it's all going to come collapsing down.

我存钱不是因为我是个悲观主义者，我认为一切都会崩溃。

I'm saving money because I want to be independent, because that's what I think is going to give me the most fulfillment, the most happiness, and that's where the savings comes from.

我存钱是因为我想要独立，因为我认为这会给我最大的满足感、最大的幸福感，而这就是储蓄的来源。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Wow.

哇。

I think this is a super important concept.

我认为这是一个非常重要的概念。

How should the person who is, let's just say early mid-career, who likes what they're doing, but thinks that this is probably not the thing for them.

一个人，比如说职业生涯的早期中期，喜欢自己正在做的事情，但认为这可能不适合他们，该怎么办？

I hear about this all the time.

我一直听说这个。

Like it's just like, yeah, it's good, but it's a ton of work.

就好像，是的，这很好，但工作量很大。

It's unclear how it's going to turn out, but they feel like they're already on the conveyor belt.

目前还不清楚结果会如何，但他们感觉自己已经在传送带上了。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

There's always this question of do you stay in investment banking another year to make a bunch of money, and then you get out so that you then have the freedom to pursue something where you have more freedom?

总是有这样的问题：你是否会在投资银行再呆一年赚一大笔钱，然后退出，这样你就可以自由地追求一些你有更多自由的东西？

You know, people are always playing this kind of mental math, and I don't think there's a clear answer, unless, of course, you're lucky enough that you fall in love with science.

你知道，人们总是在玩这种心算，我认为没有明确的答案，当然，除非你足够幸运，爱上了科学。

I did not become a neuroscientist to make money, and Lord knows I didn't.

我成为一名神经科学家并不是为了赚钱，上帝知道我不是为了赚钱。

I made some.

我做了一些。

I made a living.

我谋生了。

But if people heard what I was making as a tenured 45-year-old professor at one of the premier universities in the world where the salaries are relatively high, they would be shocked.

但如果人们听说我作为一名 45 岁的终身教授在世界上一所工资相对较高的顶尖大学的终身教授的收入，他们会感到震惊。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Just shocked at post-tax income is quite low by Bay Area standards.

只是对湾区标准的税后收入相当低感到震惊。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Right.

对。

But did you feel like you had independence?

但你觉得自己有独立性吗？

You could teach what you want, say what you want.

你可以教你想讲的，说你想讲的。

There was a level of independence-

有一定程度的独立性——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Absolutely

绝对

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

...

...

that I think would be awesome.

我认为那会很棒。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, and I loved it.

哦，我喜欢它。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I still teach there, and it's one of these things where I wouldn't trade it for anything.

我仍然在那里教书，这是我不会用它来交换任何东西的事情之一。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Also, in terms of intellectual stimulation, in terms of being able to look to my left or look to my right and realize that most of the people at Stanford, students included, are just phenomenal.

此外，就智力刺激而言，就能够向左看或向右看，并意识到斯坦福大学的大多数人，包括学生，都是非凡的。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Their level of intellect, their drive, their excitement for what they're doing, no one ends up there by accident.

他们的智力水平、他们的干劲、他们对自己所做的事情的兴奋，没有人是偶然到达那里的。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So that was and remains extremely exciting.

所以这过去是、现在仍然是非常令人兴奋的。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But I think a lot of people, unless they find a profession that they really love or there's some feature of that profession that keeps them looped in in a way that feels satisfying-

但我认为很多人，除非他们找到了自己真正喜欢的职业，或者该职业的某些特征让他们以一种令人满意的方式陷入困境——

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

the people, et cetera, most people are kind of thinking like, "All right, how do I work to make a living?" And then, like what's the exit ramp?

人们，等等，大多数人都会想，“好吧，我如何工作来谋生？”然后，出口坡道是什么？

People think a lot about exit ramps, and sometimes it's a dollar amount, but also it's the idea that maybe go work on their real love, which might be like gardening.

人们对出口坡道思考了很多，有时是一美元的金额，但也可能是为了他们真正的热爱而工作，就像园艺一样。

They want to-

他们想要——

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

you hear about these sort of hobby interests, right?

你听说过这些爱好，对吧？

"I'll write poetry," or, "I'll go ceramics"-

“我会写诗，”或者，“我会做陶瓷”-

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Right

右

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

or something like that.

或类似的东西。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The things that they truly enjoy doing.

他们真正喜欢做的事情。

How should people optimize along those must versus want tos versus sort of aspirational goals?

人们应该如何根据那些“必须”、“想要”和“理想”目标进行优化？

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Two things come to mind here.

这里我想到两件事。

One is like, most people understand inherently the dangers of communism or something.

一是，大多数人本质上都了解共产主义或其他东西的危险。

If the government's telling you what to do, when to do it, what to say, that's a bad thing.

如果政府告诉你该做什么、什么时候做、说什么，那是一件坏事。

That's going to erode society.

这会侵蚀社会。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

But a lot of those people work at a job where their boss tells them what time to come in, what to wear, what to say, how to act, what not.

但很多人的工作都是老板告诉他们什么时间上班、穿什么、说什么、如何行动、不可以做什么。

So they really understand it fundamentally at one level, but they're actually doing some version.

所以他们确实在一个层面上从根本上理解了它，但他们实际上正在做一些版本。

Now companies have to manage their employees, whatnot.

现在公司必须管理他们的员工等等。

It's not a knock against that.

这并不是反对这一点。

But I think what's really true for independence in people, if they eventually move on to writing poetry and playing in their garden, whatever it might be, is that you leave on your own terms, that whatever your exit from your career was, was because you wanted to do it on your own terms.

但我认为，对于人们的独立而言，真正正确的是，如果他们最终开始写诗、在花园里玩耍，无论是什么，你都会按照自己的方式离开，无论你从职业生涯中退出是什么，都是因为你想按照自己的方式去做。

So the thing in psychology called the peak-end rule, where, to simplify it, minimalize it, a lot of how you remember any endeavor that you did in life, a career, a vacation, whatever it is, is how you felt at the very end.

所以心理学上有一个叫做“峰终法则”的东西，简单来说，就是你如何记住你在生活中所做的任何努力，职业，假期，无论是什么，就是你最后的感受。

And for a lot of people, if you have a great career, you enjoyed your career, you helped people, you made money, your colleagues appreciated you, but then you got fired or your boss came to you and said, "You're too old to keep doing this," that's bad.

对于很多人来说，如果你有一份出色的职业生涯，你很享受你的职业生涯，你帮助了别人，你赚了钱，你的同事欣赏你，但后来你被解雇了，或者你的老板来找你说，“你太老了，不能继续这样做了，”那就不好了。

You'll never recover from that.

你永远不会从中恢复过来。

And you compare that to the people who quit on their own terms.

你可以将其与那些按照自己的方式戒烟的人进行比较。

They said, "Look, I'm proud of my career, but that's enough.

他们说：“看，我为自己的职业生涯感到自豪，但这就足够了。

I'm going to take a step back and pass the baton to another generation." Those are the people who, even if they didn't really enjoy their career that much, will look back at it fondly because it gets back to freedom and autonomy and control.

我将退后一步，将接力棒交给下一代。”这些人即使不太享受自己的职业生涯，也会深情地回顾它，因为它回归了自由、自主和控制。

Do you leave on your own terms, or are you forced out on somebody else's schedule?

你是按照自己的意愿离开，还是被迫按照别人的日程安排离开？

And so I think wherever you go in life, whatever you're doing, even if you're not an entrepreneur, maximizing for independence and autonomy and doing it on your own terms, on your own calendar, is absolutely vital in anything you're doing.

因此，我认为无论你在生活中走到哪里，无论你在做什么，即使你不是企业家，最大限度地实现独立性和自主性，并按照你自己的方式、按照你自己的日历去做，对你所做的任何事情都是绝对重要的。

Most people are not necessarily, particularly as they get older, are not necessarily scared of death.

大多数人不一定害怕死亡，尤其是随着年龄的增长。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

They're scared of a death not on their own terms.

他们害怕不按自己意愿死亡。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

That's going to sneak up on them, where they're not going to have a chance to say goodbye.

这会悄悄接近他们，他们没有机会说再见。

So I think that's a good analogy for a lot of these things.

所以我认为这对于很多事情来说都是一个很好的类比。

We're not scared of the ultimate outcome.

我们并不害怕最终的结果。

We're scared of not being able to do it on our own terms.

我们害怕无法按照自己的意愿去做。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I once heard Ray Dalio say something along the lines of the first third of your life is spent trying to learn how to function in the world.

我曾经听雷·达里奥说过类似的话，你生命的前三分之一都花在学习如何在世界上运作上。

Then there's a kind of middle third where you are acquiring resources to be able to take care of yourself and people close to you, and then in the final third of your life, you want to take your knowledge, take what you gleaned in terms of financial and other types of wealth, because of course there are other types of wealth, and put back-

然后是中间三分之一，你正在获取资源，以便能够照顾自己和身边的人，然后在你生命的最后三分之一，你想要获取你的知识，获取你在金融和其他类型的财富方面收集到的东西，因为当然还有其他类型的财富，然后放回去-

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

for subsequent generations.

为后代。

It is a beautiful model if you think about it.

如果你仔细想想，这是一个美丽的模型。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's very benevolent.

这是非常仁慈的。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

I heard it phrased as when you get older, you either become an elder or elderly.

我听人说，当你变老时，你要么成为长者，要么成为老人。

You get to choose which one.

你可以选择哪一个。

Do you want to be an elder and help other people, or elderly, you're just going to disintegrate over time?

你是想当老人帮助别人，还是老人随着时间的推移你就会崩溃？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

You got to choose which one.

你必须选择哪一个。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Nowadays, we have both the benefit and the problem of people living longer and maintaining vigor longer and therefore working longer.

如今，我们既面临着好处，也面临着问题：人们的寿命更长，保持活力的时间更长，因此工作的时间也更长。

This is certainly true in academia.

这在学术界确实如此。

People don't like to retire.

人们不喜欢退休。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

No.

不。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They really do not like to retire.

他们真的不喜欢退休。

And I don't think it's just so they can make more money.

我不认为这只是为了他们能赚更多钱。

I think it's so they can stay intellectually active.

我认为这样他们就可以保持智力活跃。

People get into science typically because they like learning, or in academics generally.

人们进入科学领域通常是因为他们喜欢学习，或者一般来说是因为喜欢学术。

They have a campus office where they go to, and it makes them feel socially connected.

他们有一个常去的校园办公室，这让他们感到有社交联系。

So you can understand all the reasons why these people in their late 60s, 70s and even 80s, sometimes even 90s-

所以你就可以理解这些60多岁、70多岁甚至80多岁、有时甚至是90多岁的人的所有原因了——

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

continue to go to work.

继续上班。

It's rare for these older generations of people that stay in various professions to continue to glean resources, but it happens.

对于这些留在各个行业的老一辈人来说，继续收集资源的情况很少见，但这种情况确实发生了。

How old is Buffett?

巴菲特几岁了？

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

93 maybe.

也许是93。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

He's still investing?

他还在投资？

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Oh yeah.

哦，是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Full-time.

全职。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And presumably he's going to use that money for, what, either philanthropy or generational wealth within his family?

想必他会用这笔钱做什么，要么是慈善事业，要么是家族内的代际财富？

Is that the plan?

是这样的计划吗？

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

He's already given away, I think, about $100 billion.

我认为他已经捐赠了大约 1000 亿美元。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay.

好的。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

And the plan is to give away the vast majority.

计划是放弃绝大多数。

I think he announced recently that he was going to leave each of his kids a billion dollars for philanthropy, not for their personal use-

我想他最近宣布他将留给每个孩子十亿美元用于慈善事业，而不是供他们个人使用-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

...

...

but for philanthropy, and the rest is all given away.

但用于慈善事业，其余全部捐献。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh yeah, the children of the ultra-rich that inherit all their wealth, I don't know what the numbers are there.

哦，是的，继承了所有财富的超级富豪的孩子，我不知道那里有多少数字。

I know a great number of them squander it.

我知道他们中的很多人都浪费了它。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But I also know a few examples of some that really make good on those incredible assets that they inherited-

但我也知道一些真正利用他们继承的令人难以置信的资产的例子——

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and are very thoughtful, hardworking people.

他们都是非常有思想、勤奋的人。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It does happen.

它确实发生了。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

There are a couple of families.

有几个家庭。

I think of all the big robber baron families of 150 years ago, the Rockefellers probably did it the best.

我想150年前的所有大强盗贵族家族中，洛克菲勒家族可能做得最好。

The Rockefellers still have a lot of wealth.

洛克菲勒家族仍然拥有大量财富。

The Vanderbilts by far did it the worst.

到目前为止，范德比尔特家族做得最糟糕。

They just squandered it in a couple of generations.

他们只是在几代人的时间里浪费了它。

And this is fairly well known now, but it's pretty interesting.

这现在已经众所周知，但也很有趣。

The first Vanderbilt heir Who did not get a trust fund, for whom all the money was dried up.

范德比尔特的第一位继承人没有获得信托基金，所有的钱都枯竭了。

The first person who didn't get any money was Anderson Cooper of CNN.

第一个没有拿到钱的人是CNN的安德森·库珀。

His mother, Gloria Vanderbilt, was the last Vanderbilt who got a big trust fund.

他的母亲格洛丽亚·范德比尔特 (Gloria Vanderbilt) 是最后一位获得大额信托基金的范德比尔特家族成员。

And Cooper, I think not coincidentally, is the most successful and probably the happiest Vanderbilt heir in 150 years.

我认为库珀是 150 年来最成功、也可能是最幸福的范德比尔特继承人，这并非巧合。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

And he's talked about this.

他也谈到过这个。

He was like, "I was the first person in my family who had to make a name for himself." The fact that his last name's not Vanderbilt, it's Cooper, and he didn't get any money.

他说：“我是家里第一个必须出名的人。”事实上，他的姓氏不是范德比尔特，而是库珀，而且他没有得到任何钱。

He was like, "I had to go out and find my own way and find my own identity." Whereas all of his ancestors, their identity was, you're rich from birth.

他说，“我必须走出去，找到自己的路，找到自己的身份。”而他所有的祖先，他们的身份都是，你生来就是富有的。

That's your identity.

这就是你的身份。

You don't need to go out and make a name for yourself.

你不需要出去为自己出名。

You don't need to work hard.

你不需要努力工作。

You don't need to create anything.

你不需要创建任何东西。

All you need to do is sit here and spend your money.

你所需要做的就是坐在这里花你的钱。

And it made them miserable.

这让他们很痛苦。

And Cooper was the first person-- Look, this is very anecdotal.

库珀是第一个人——看，这是非常轶事。

I'm not saying this is how it's going to work for everyone, but the first person who had to make a name for himself and work for himself was the one who was the most successful and probably the happiest.

我并不是说这对每个人都适用，但第一个必须为自己出名并为自己工作的人是最成功的人，也可能是最幸福的人。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Super important concept.

超级重要的概念。

Again, incredibly important, I think because people often will think that because they were born into families that didn't have a lot of money, that somehow they were given the short end of the stick.

再说一遍，这非常重要，我认为因为人们常常会认为，因为他们出生在没有很多钱的家庭，所以不知何故他们受到了不利的对待。

And in some sense, they were, right?

从某种意义上说，他们是，对吧？

It's one thing to grow up in a world with assets and another world where you don't have assets.

在一个拥有资产的世界中成长是一回事，在另一个没有资产的世界中成长是一回事。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But we don't often hear about the downside of all of that.

但我们并不经常听说这一切的缺点。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

It's hard to have sympathy for a Vanderbilt heir who inherited $400 million on their 18th birthday.

对于一位在 18 岁生日就继承了 4 亿美元遗产的范德比尔特继承人，我们很难产生同情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, there's a lot of-

嗯，有很多——

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

You're not going to have a lot of sympathy for that, right?

你不会对此有太多同情，对吧？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Well, the show "Succession," right?

好吧，节目“继承”，对吧？

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is all about the horrible interpersonal dynamics of people that have a lot of wealth because it's never enough-

都是关于那些拥有大量财富的人可怕的人际关系动态，因为它永远不够——

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and they self-destruct, essentially.

从本质上讲，它们会自毁。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

I think the situation is you don't have sympathy for them, but you should also realize that if you were in their shoes, you would probably self-destruct as well.

我认为现在的情况是你对他们没有同情心，但你也应该意识到，如果你处在他们的立场上，你也可能会自我毁灭。

It's very difficult to do.

这是非常难做到的。

Once in a while, you see someone who is completely motivated, irrespective of money.

偶尔，你会看到有人完全有动力，不顾金钱。

Mark Zuckerberg was offered a billion dollars cash for Facebook when I think he was 22, and he said, "No, I don't want it.

当马克·扎克伯格 22 岁时，有人向 Facebook 提供了 10 亿美元现金，他说：“不，我不想要。

I'm going to keep going." That's a ridiculously rare personality.

我会继续前进。”这是一种极其罕见的性格。

And I think most people, if I inherited a billion dollars on my 18th birthday, I probably would have no motivation.

我认为大多数人，如果我在 18 岁生日时继承了 10 亿美元，我可能不会有动力。

But if Musk did, if Elon Musk did, wouldn't slow him down whatsoever.

但即使马斯克这样做了，如果埃隆·马斯克这样做了，也不会减慢他的速度。

If Jeff Bezos did, Mark Zuckerberg did, those are very rare people who have a motivation that is so detached from money.

如果杰夫·贝索斯、马克·扎克伯格都是如此，那么他们的动机与金钱如此脱节的人就非常罕见了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I wonder if it's the excesses of wealth that destroy people or if it's the fact that the excesses take them away from the pursuit of what delivered the wealth in the first place.

我想知道是否是财富的过剩摧毁了人们，或者是否是财富的过剩使他们远离了对最初带来财富的追求。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

For a lot of those people, it's the pursuit of solving the problem that's doing it.

对于很多人来说，他们之所以这样做，是为了追求解决问题。

And I have a good friend, Patrick O'Shaughnessy, who phrased it this way.

我有一个好朋友帕特里克·奥肖内西（Patrick O'Shaughnessy），他是这么说的。

I'm going to paraphrase him, but he said, "If you had to describe the mindset of those very successful entrepreneurs, it's not driven, it's not motivated, it's tortured." That they wake up every morning tortured by the problems that they're not fixing, and the opportunities that they have not yet found.

我要转述他的话，但他说，“如果你必须描述那些非常成功的企业家的心态，那就是没有动力，没有动力，而是受到折磨。”他们每天早上醒来都会被尚未解决的问题和尚未发现的机会所折磨。

And there's a famous Elon Musk interview, I think it was on Lex Fridman, where he was like, "You think you want to be me, the richest man in the world, but you don't." And he was like, "It's a storm up here.

还有一次著名的埃隆·马斯克采访，我想是在莱克斯·弗里德曼 (Lex Fridman) 上，他说，“你认为你想成为我，世界上最富有的人，但你不想。”他说：“这里有一场风暴。

It's a mess up here." I think that's true for a lot of people.

这里一片混乱。”我认为对很多人来说都是如此。

My friend David Senra is a great podcast founder.

我的朋友大卫·森拉（David Senra）是一位伟大的播客创始人。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, I love Founders podcast.

是的，我喜欢创始人播客。

Yeah.

是的。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Such a good guy.

真是个好人。

He's one of the best guys in the world I've ever met.

他是我见过的世界上最好的人之一。

But he says of all the 350 founders that he's profiled, only one of them has he actually said, "I would want that guy's life." It was Ed Thorp.

但他表示，在他所介绍的所有 350 名创始人中，只有其中一位他真正说过：“我想要那个人的命。”这是艾德·索普。

But put that aside.

但把它放在一边。

Of the other 349, I think you read their biography, and you can say, "I'm so glad that they existed." Most of the time, they did a lot of good in the world.

对于其他 349 个人，我想你读过他们的传记，你可以说，“我很高兴他们的存在。”大多数时候，他们在世界上做了很多好事。

They created products that make us better off, and never in a million years would I want his life.

他们创造了让我们过得更好的产品，一百万年内我都不会想要他的生命。

It seems miserable.

看起来很惨。

Because most of the time, the simple answer is their financial and career success came, the reason they're so successful is because they devoted every waking second of their entire life to this one problem, this one endeavor, and that came at the expense of their family life, of their health, of their mental health, their physical health.

因为大多数时候，简单的答案是他们在经济和事业上取得了成功，他们之所以如此成功，是因为他们将一生中醒着的每一秒都奉献给了这个问题，这个努力，而这是以牺牲他们的家庭生活、他们的健康、他们的心理健康、他们的身体健康为代价的。

And if you get a full view of their-- It's easy to look at Musk and say, "Oh, richest man in the world.

如果你全面了解他们——你很容易看着马斯克说：“哦，世界上最富有的人。

Wouldn't that be fun?" Yeah, but it came because he's had this life of a singular devotion to, well, in his case, two or three different companies.

那不是很有趣吗？”是的，但这是因为他一生都对两三个不同的公司有一种独特的奉献精神。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

And I think if you take that full picture, it's less glamorous than it would seem.

我认为如果你拍下这张完整的照片，你会发现它并不像看起来那么迷人。

And it's too tempting in life to have envy of someone and say, "Oh, well, I want their money, and I want their career, and their relationship, or their humor." You're picking little bits and pieces from their life, but it's not how it works.

生活中很容易嫉妒某人并说：“哦，好吧，我想要他们的钱，我想要他们的事业，他们的关系，或者他们的幽默。”你从他们的生活中挑选一些点点滴滴，但这并不是它的运作方式。

You got to take the full package.

你必须拿走完整的包裹。

And when you look at the full package of those people who you might envy, if you actually take a complete view of their life, maybe some of them you would say, "No, that is a great life," like Ed Thorp.

当你看到那些你可能羡慕的人的全部时，如果你真正全面地看待他们的生活，也许他们中的一些人你会说，“不，那是一个伟大的生活”，就像艾德·索普一样。

But I think for a lot of them if you got the full view, you would look at it and say, "Oh, that's actually a lot different than I thought." I frame this one way.

但我认为，对于很多人来说，如果你看到了全景，你会看着它并说，“哦，这实际上与我想象的有很大不同。”我以一种方式构建这一点。

If you look at, this is flagrantly anecdotal, but among the 10 richest men in the world, there are a cumulative 15 divorces among them.

如果你看一下，这简直是赤裸裸的轶事，但在世界上最富有的10位富翁中，累计有15人离婚。

So it's very easy, particularly for young people, to say, "Oh, I'm jealous of that person.

所以，特别是对于年轻人来说，很容易说：“哦，我嫉妒那个人。

I envy that person.

我很羡慕那个人。

I want to be that person." But I think for a lot of them if you actually got a full view of their life, it's not nearly as good as you would think.

我想成为那个人。”但我认为，对于他们中的很多人来说，如果你真正全面了解他们的生活，你会发现它并不像你想象的那么好。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I think people like Elon Musk, people like Mark Zuckerberg, they represent these incredibly extreme examples that obviously most people can't even, including me, can't fathom what a day in their life must be like.

我认为像埃隆·马斯克这样的人，像马克·扎克伯格这样的人，他们代表了这些令人难以置信的极端例子，显然大多数人，包括我，都无法理解他们生命中的一天是什么样的。

I've met Zuck.

我见过扎克。

He was on this podcast, and it seems that he really enjoys doing what he's doing.

他参加了这个播客，看起来他真的很喜欢做他正在做的事情。

But I think for me and for most people, it's just so far out of the stratosphere of understanding, similar to the amount of wealth that they've acquired.

但我认为对我和大多数人来说，这远远超出了理解的高度，与他们所获得的财富数量相似。

It's just sort of like, what do you even do with all of that?

有点像，你用这些做什么呢？

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And people go, "Well, I'd figure it out." Yeah, I'm sure you would, but it's so astronomically outside the scale of one's normal dopamine reward schedules that it's hard to imagine.

人们会说：“好吧，我会想办法的。”是的，我相信你会的，但这远远超出了一个人正常的多巴胺奖励计划的范围，很难想象。

And what are you going to do, buy a plane as big as a state?

你打算做什么，买一架像一个州那么大的飞机？

But there's a place in between struggling to, quote, unquote, make it, and being at that extreme Where people hit that sweet spot.

但是，在努力、引用、取消引用、成功和达到人们达到最佳状态的极端之间有一个地方。

And I think a lot of your work is really aimed at at least shining light on the possibility of a sweet spot.

我认为你的很多工作实际上都是为了至少揭示最佳点的可能性。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Where you're doing something that you find meaningful, making sufficient income that your anxiety is buffered, you have meaningful relationships in and out of work, and you've essentially built a "good life."

当你做一些你认为有意义的事情，赚取足够的收入来缓冲你的焦虑时，你在工作内外都有有意义的关系，并且你基本上已经建立了“美好的生活”。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right?

对吗？

I heard Naval say something recently where he said you want resources along the dimensions I just mentioned, a healthy, fit body, a calm mind, and a home full of love.

我听到纳瓦尔最近说过一些话，他说你想要我刚才提到的资源，一个健康、健美的身体，一个平静的心态，一个充满爱的家。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I think that's a pretty awesome list right there, and it's a lot of work, though.

我认为这是一个非常棒的列表，但工作量很大。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Just to check off even one of those four boxes is a lot of work.

即使只是勾选这四个框之一也是一项艰巨的工作。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right?

对吗？

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

I think because money is so tangible, of counting it is so easy and so tangible, that even if people know that, they're going to put an inordinate amount of effort towards making more money at the expense of their relationships, their health, their children, their friends, their family.

我认为，因为金钱是如此有形，计数它是如此容易和如此有形，即使人们知道这一点，他们也会付出过多的努力来赚更多的钱，而牺牲他们的人际关系、他们的健康、他们的孩子、他们的朋友、他们的家人。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

That it comes at the expense.

这是有代价的。

Because if I were to say, "How do I increase my income by 10%?" It's like, I can wrap my head around that.

因为如果我说，“我怎样才能让我的收入增加 10%？”就像，我可以理解这一点。

I can give you a number of what that would be and how I might be able to do it.

我可以告诉你一些具体内容以及我可以如何做到这一点。

But if I said, "How do I get my kids to love me 10% more?" Like, ah, I have no idea how to measure that or how to even pursue it.

但如果我说：“我怎样才能让我的孩子多爱我 10%？”就像，啊，我不知道如何衡量它，甚至不知道如何追求它。

So even if I want that, because it's hard, it's not tangible, it's much easier to ignore and just pursue the thing that you can count, which is money.

所以即使我想要那个，因为它很难，它是无形的，所以更容易忽视并只追求你可以计算的东西，那就是金钱。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Do you have a dog?

你有狗吗？

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

I do.

我愿意。

Golden retriever.

金毛猎犬。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I was going to say, you want them to love you 10% more, get them a puppy.

我想说，你想让他们多爱你 10%，那就给他们养一只小狗吧。

But it sounds like you already did that.

但听起来你已经这么做了。

I'm only half kidding.

我只是半开玩笑。

I would say that dogs are not only unconditional love, but they have the ability to give on a daily basis, multiple times per day in a way that-- They give love as readily as they receive love.

我想说，狗不仅是无条件的爱，而且它们有能力每天多次给予爱，就像它们接受爱一样容易。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's just like this perfect reciprocal loop.

就像这个完美的倒数循环一样。

Right?

正确的？

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

And they're constantly in the moment.

他们总是活在当下。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

They're just living right there.

他们只是住在那里。

There's this great cartoon, a lot of people have probably seen it.

有一部很棒的动画片，想必很多人都看过。

It's a guy and a dog sitting on a lake.

这是一个人和一只狗坐在湖上。

And the guy's thought bubble coming out of his head is he's thinking about money, he's thinking about work, he's thinking about stocks.

这个人脑子里冒出来的思想泡沫是他在考虑金钱，他在考虑工作，他在考虑股票。

The dog's thought bubble is a picture of them sitting on the lake.

狗的思想泡泡是他们坐在湖边的照片。

The dog's just right in the moment, just enjoying what he's doing right there.

这只狗此时此刻正享受着他正在做的事情。

I think that's my jealousy of my dog when I look at her.

当我看着我的狗时，我想这是我对她的嫉妒。

Twenty-four hours a day, everyone who has a dog will recognize this, they are just in the moment.

一天二十四小时，每个养狗的人都会认识到这一点，他们只是活在当下。

They just enjoy what they're doing, whatever they're doing.

他们只是享受他们正在做的事情，无论他们在做什么。

And everyone, including me, is either worrying, thinking about the past, or dreaming about the future.

每个人，包括我，要么在担忧，要么在思考过去，要么在梦想着未来。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I love that.

我喜欢那个。

What's your dog's name, if I may?

如果可以的话，你的狗叫什么名字？

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Lucy.

露西。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Golden retrievers are an amazing breed because they also are universally loving.

金毛猎犬是一个了不起的品种，因为它们也受到普遍的喜爱。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They love their owner the most, but they also love people that stop and meet them on the street.

他们最爱自己的主人，但他们也喜欢在街上停下来遇见他们的人。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Not all dogs are like that.

并不是所有的狗都是这样的。

Not all breeds are.

并非所有品种都是如此。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

The worst guard dogs in the world.

世界上最糟糕的护卫犬。

You could break into your house, a golden retriever will just come up and wag its tail and like you.

你可能会闯入你的房子，一只金毛猎犬会过来摇尾巴，就像你一样。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I love it.

我喜欢它。

Let's talk about this social comparison thing.

我们来谈谈这个社会比较的事情。

I'm trying to make this practical for people that are both partnered and not partnered.

我正在努力让这一点对于有伴侣和没有伴侣的人来说都很实用。

Seems to me that a lot of what I've observed in terms of people who are on the conveyor belt, work, work, work, work, work, have a picture in their mind of where that's all going, when enough is enough, and when they plan to hop off or stay on, or how late to stay, in large part based on, yeah, their upbringing, yeah, kind of who they are, but also the messages that they're getting from, typically, the one other person that has the greatest degree of input.

在我看来，我观察到的很多人，他们在传送带上，工作，工作，工作，工作，工作，他们脑子里都有一幅图景，他们知道这一切会去哪里，什么时候够了，什么时候计划下车或留下来，或者停留多晚，很大程度上取决于，是的，他们的成长经历，是的，他们是谁，但也包括他们从另一个人那里得到的信息，通常是另一个拥有最大程度的信息的人。输入。

Right?

正确的？

You could create a picture where the spouse in either direction is saying, "We need more."

您可以创建一张图片，其中任一方向的配偶都在说：“我们需要更多。”

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right?

对吗？

That changes the picture completely.

这完全改变了情况。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Where the spouse just says, "I would just like to see you more.

配偶只是说：“我只是想多看看你。

I don't need any more stuff."

我不需要更多的东西了。”

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

"I just want to see you more.

“我只是想多看看你。

We want to see you more." These are the sorts of at-home dynamics that I think drive a lot of decisions about career.

我们想更多地见到你。”我认为这些家庭动态会推动很多职业决策。

Not just what careers to pursue, but how long to stay in, whether or not you try and make partner in a firm, whether or not your social media account needs X number more followers or not.

不仅仅是要追求什么职业，而是要留在公司多久，无论你是否尝试成为公司的合伙人，无论你的社交媒体帐户是否需要更多的关注者。

I think, to me, this is as important as the social comparison of your peers at work or online.

我认为，对我来说，这与工作或网上同事的社会比较一样重要。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The messages that we receive by the people closest to us about what to be afraid of, what the needs are, and I don't know that people have really parsed how to resolve all that.

我们最亲近的人收到的关于我们要害怕什么、需要什么的信息，我不知道人们是否真正解析过如何解决所有这些问题。

But I'm guessing you probably have some thoughts about this.

但我猜你可能对此有一些想法。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Well, I think the balance between it is so difficult because for a lot of people who have families and are working very hard, at the core, if you said, "Why are you working so hard?" "Well, to make more money." "Why do you want more money?" "To take care of my family." Like it's for very good intentions, but it's coming at the expense of time with your family and whatnot.

嗯，我认为两者之间的平衡是如此困难，因为对于很多有家庭并且工作非常努力的人来说，如果你问，“你为什么这么努力工作？” “嗯，为了赚更多的钱。” “你为什么要更多的钱？” “为了照顾我的家人。”好像这是出于很好的意图，但这是以牺牲与家人相处的时间为代价的。

So a lot of things, it's not that you're making a terrible decision.

所以很多事情，并不是你做出了一个糟糕的决定。

You're doing what you think is right.

你正在做你认为正确的事情。

And then if you said, "Well, how much is enough to take care of your family?" By and large, it's a game of comparison.

然后如果你说：“那么，多少钱足以照顾你的家人呢？”总的来说，这是一个比较游戏。

The way that people lived 100 years ago, what is a good life 100 years ago, is a completely inadequate life today.

100年前人们的生活方式，100年前的美好生活，在今天却是完全不合格的生活。

Not even 100 years ago.

甚至不到100年前。

You go back to our parents' generation and say in the 1950s.

你回到我们父母那一代，说是 20 世纪 50 年代。

There is a nostalgia for the 1950s of, oh, life was so good then and so great, and the white picket fence, and the dog, and the stay-at-home mom.

人们对 20 世纪 50 年代怀念，哦，那时的生活是如此美好，如此伟大，还有白色的尖桩篱笆，还有狗，还有全职妈妈。

Like it was a good picture.

就像这是一张好照片。

But what was the definition of a good life back then?

但当时美好生活的定义是什么？

A good middle-class life was an 800-square-foot house with one bathroom for four people and camping for your annual vacation.

美好的中产阶级生活就是一套 800 平方英尺的房子，一间浴室，可供四个人居住，每年度假时可以露营。

You would describe a life that most people would say that's inadequate today.

你所描述的生活在今天大多数人看来是不够的。

That's not my definition of a good life today.

这不是我今天对美好生活的定义。

So that is shifting all the time, and therefore, you're saying like, "Well, how much money do you need to be happy?" The truth is I need more money than the next family, than the next person.

所以这种情况一直在变化，因此，你会说，“那么，你需要多少钱才能快乐？”事实是，我比下一个家庭、下一个人需要更多的钱。

It's this continuous chain.

就是这条连续的链条。

And I think a lot of that is just evolution.

我认为其中很多只是进化。

It's a competition for resources, and it doesn't matter how much money you have.

这是资源的竞争，有多少钱并不重要。

What matters is that you have more money than the next person.

重要的是你比旁边的人有更多的钱。

That's the sad truth for a lot of this.

这就是很多事情的可悲事实。

And therefore, you can easily imagine a world in which my grandkids are earning, on average, way more money than we are today, and have way better resources, better health, better technologies, and they're no happier for it.

因此，你可以很容易地想象一个世界，在这个世界里，我的孙子们平均赚的钱比我们今天多得多，并且拥有更好的资源、更好的健康状况、更好的技术，但他们并不为此感到高兴。

And they don't feel any more relieved for it.

他们并没有因此而感到更多的宽慰。

They don't feel like they can scale back and work less for it because they're going to be competing with other people that have all of those things.

他们不觉得自己可以缩减规模并减少工作量，因为他们将与拥有所有这些东西的其他人竞争。

John Maynard Keynes, a great economist, very famously predicted a world where people would be working 20 hours a week because technology was going to make it so we didn't need to work.

伟大的经济学家约翰·梅纳德·凯恩斯 (John Maynard Keynes) 曾有一句著名的预测：人们将每周工作 20 小时，因为技术将实现这一目标，因此我们不需要工作。

And that's not how it works whatsoever.

无论如何，它并不是这样运作的。

We are working less than we did back when everybody was a farmer, but not nearly as little as we could be if we still had the expectations of a 1950s family living in an 800 square foot house.

我们的工作量比以前每个人都是农民时少了，但如果我们仍然怀着 20 世纪 50 年代家庭住在 800 平方英尺的房子里的期望的话，我们的工作量也不会那么少。

If we had those expectations, people could be working way less, but it's all a competition between other people.

如果我们有这些期望，人们的工作量可能会减少，但这都是其他人之间的竞争。

So even if 100 years from now, a middle-class family's living in a 5,000 square foot house with a spaceship in their backyard, if that becomes the norm, you don't appreciate any of it.

因此，即使 100 年后，一个中产阶级家庭住在 5,000 平方英尺的房子里，后院有一艘宇宙飞船，如果这成为常态，你也不会欣赏它。

If you took someone 100 years ago, if you took John Rockefeller, the richest man in the world 100 years ago, and brought him to today and showed him a middle-class family in America, he would say, "What is this thing, Advil?

如果你把一个人带到100年前，如果你把约翰·洛克菲勒，100年前世界首富，带到今天，给他看一个美国的中产阶级家庭，他会说，“这是什么东西，阿德维尔？

You take a pill that makes your headache go away?

您服用药物可以缓解头痛吗？

You have sunscreen?

你有防晒霜吗？

You just rub this on your face, you don't get sunburnt?" His jaw would be on the floor.

你把这个擦在脸上，不会被晒伤吧？”他的下巴会掉在地板上。

But nobody appreciates that today like he would because it's just commonplace.

但今天没有人像他一样欣赏这一点，因为这只是司空见惯的事。

Your definition of a good life is, "I expect to have that." So it's always going to be the case that the reason we're working hard is to take care of our family, and what we feel like is an adequate amount is a growing level over time.

你对美好生活的定义是“我期望拥有这样的生活”。因此，我们努力工作的原因总是为了照顾我们的家庭，而我们认为足够的数量随着时间的推移而不断增加。

I should also say that that is by and large a great thing.

我还应该说，这总的来说是一件伟大的事情。

The reason society progresses is because most people wake up in the morning feeling a little bit inadequate.

社会之所以进步，是因为大多数人早上醒来都感觉有点不舒服。

"Whatever I have today is not enough, and I need to go work harder to get more." That's why we have good technology and economic growth over time.

“我今天所拥有的还不够，我需要更加努力才能得到更多。”这就是为什么我们随着时间的推移拥有良好的技术和经济增长。

So at the macro level, it's a great thing.

所以从宏观层面来说，这是一件伟大的事情。

That's what pushes society forward and better medical technologies, all better technologies.

这就是推动社会进步和更好的医疗技术，所有更好的技术的动力。

But at the individual level, it creates this hamster wheel of a constant feeling of inadequacy that we try to compensate for by working harder and working harder, even when it comes at the expense of things that should be more dear to us, like our friends and family, and health.

但在个人层面上，它造成了一种持续的不足感，我们试图通过更加努力地工作来弥补，即使这是以牺牲我们应该更珍惜的东西为代价，比如我们的朋友、家人和健康。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And with social media, we now have access to millions, if not billions of comparison points, whereas just 30 years ago, even 20 years ago, we only had access to local comparison points.

通过社交媒体，我们现在可以访问数百万甚至数十亿个比较点，而就在 30 年前，甚至 20 年前，我们只能访问本地比较点。

Like the people in your neighborhood drove certain types of cars.

就像您附近的人驾驶某些类型的汽车一样。

Now online, you can see people that you went to high school with that have certain lives and their vacations that are spectacular relative to the ones that one typically has.

现在，您可以在网上看到与您一起上高中的人，他们的生活和假期相对于通常的情况来说是壮观的。

I'd like to talk about this notion of social comparison as a function of place.

我想谈谈社会比较作为地点函数的概念。

We can touch on some major cities.

我们可以触及一些主要城市。

We were doing this before we started recording.

我们在开始录制之前就这样做了。

It's kind of fun to do.

这样做很有趣。

In the Bay Area and Silicon Valley area where I grew up, it seems like there's a high value placed on the people who manage to do things that wick out to the entire world, the building of companies or technologies that go everywhere.

在我长大的湾区和硅谷地区，那些成功地做出影响整个世界的事情、建立无处不在的公司或技术的人似乎受到了很高的重视。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's not just because of Facebook and Instagram.

这不仅仅是因为 Facebook 和 Instagram。

It's also because of biotech.

这也是因为生物技术。

It's because of all sorts of things.

这是因为各种各样的事情。

Apple, right?

苹果，对吧？

There's a whole history of that.

这有完整的历史。

What would you say for New York City?

您对纽约市有何评价？

What is the dominant message that's being pumped into the psyche of New Yorkers?

注入纽约人心灵的主导信息是什么？

And by the way, I love New York City, but it'd be fun to play this game a little bit as an example, and we'll then wick it out to people regardless of where they live in the world.

顺便说一句，我喜欢纽约市，但作为一个例子来玩这个游戏会很有趣，然后我们会将它传播给人们，无论他们住在世界上的哪个地方。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Well, this is one of those things where what is so good and beneficial for society is what makes individuals miserable.

好吧，这就是那些对社会如此美好和有益的事情却让个人痛苦的事情之一。

So I think what is the message here in Los Angeles or in New York or any other big city, San Francisco?

所以我想洛杉矶、纽约或旧金山等其他大城市传达的信息是什么？

The message is waking up in the morning and feeling inadequate because you are surrounded by people who at least look like they're doing better than you.

传达的信息是早上醒来，感觉自己不够好，因为你周围的人至少看起来比你做得更好。

And you say, "I have to chase that person.

你说：“我必须去追那个人。

I have to get what they have." That is great for society.

我必须得到他们拥有的东西。”这对社会来说是一件好事。

That's where we get new technologies, new innovations, and growth.

这就是我们获得新技术、新创新和增长的地方。

At the individual level, it's very difficult.

从个人层面来说，这是非常困难的。

I grew up out in the woods in Lake Tahoe.

我在太浩湖的树林里长大。

And in that region, if you are a dentist, let's say, you are on top of the world.

在那个地区，如果你是一名牙医，比如说，你就处于世界之巅。

You are the richest guy in town.

你是镇上最富有的人。

Everybody looked up to you.

每个人都仰望你。

You had the nicest house, the nicest car.

你有最好的房子，最好的车。

If you are a family dentist here in Los Angeles, you don't stick out whatsoever.

如果您是洛杉矶的家庭牙医，您就不会显得与众不同。

You might feel like you are so far behind because you're surrounded by legitimate billionaires.

您可能会觉得自己远远落后，因为您周围都是合法的亿万富翁。

And so I think it's interesting to ask, is a dentist happier in Lake Tahoe or here?

所以我认为有一个有趣的问题是，牙医在太浩湖还是在这里更快乐？

I think it's probably in Lake Tahoe because your comparison group is so much less, especially back in the pre-social media days.

我认为它可能在太浩湖，因为你的对照组要少得多，尤其是在社交媒体出现之前。

The states that are statistically the happiest in the United States, for cities, it's not Los Angeles, it's not New York.

统计上美国最幸福的州，对于城市来说，不是洛杉矶，不是纽约。

It tends to be in the Midwest, where wonderful places, whatnot, but less competitive than the grind of the big cities.

它往往位于中西部，那里有很多美妙的地方，但与大城市相比，竞争力较差。

But that's where at the individual, where are you happiest?

但就个人而言，你最快乐的地方在哪里？

It's where you have less comparison.

这是你比较较少的地方。

But for society, what is better?

但对于社会来说，什么才是更好的呢？

It's when you have huge competition for getting ahead.

当你为了取得成功而面临激烈的竞争时。

So I don't know where I come down on that of where I would want to be.

所以我不知道我的目标是什么。

Of course, I'd want to be happy as an individual, but I want to live in a society that is moving ahead.

当然，作为个人我希望幸福，但我希望生活在一个不断进步的社会中。

And the reason it's moving ahead is because most people wake up feeling inadequate.

它之所以向前发展，是因为大多数人醒来时都感觉自己不够好。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You grew up in Tahoe?

你在塔霍长大？

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I love Lake Tahoe.

我爱太浩湖。

But can I ask you, did you grow up being competitive or thinking about how well people skied or snowboarded?

但我可以问你，你在成长过程中是否充满竞争意识，或者思考过人们滑雪或单板滑雪的水平如何？

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yes, absolutely.

是的，绝对是。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

See.

瞧。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

I lived in Tahoe pre-tech money.

我住在塔霍科技大学前的钱。

It's very different now because so much Bay Area tech money just flooded into it.

现在情况非常不同，因为大量湾区科技资金涌入其中。

It's its own little Hamptons now.

现在它是自己的小汉普顿了。

But back in the day, I feel like when I grew up, normal people drove old pickup trucks, and rich people drove new pickup trucks.

但回到过去，我觉得我长大后，普​​通人开旧皮卡车，富人开新皮卡车。

That was the difference between rich and poor.

这就是富人和穷人的区别。

And both in a city like Los Angeles and New York, and in a social media world especially, it's normal people drive Honda Civics and rich people have private jets.

无论是在洛杉矶和纽约这样的城市，还是在社交媒体世界，普通人都开着本田思域，而富人则拥有私人飞机。

The stratification between them is just blown so far out of proportion.

它们之间的分层已经被夸大得不成比例了。

I see this with my nine-year-old son, who like a lot of kids, watches MrBeast, who I think is great.

我和我九岁的儿子看到了这一点，他喜欢很多孩子，观看《野兽先生》，我认为他很棒。

I think he's an awesome guy, but it's completely warped my son's sense of money, because MrBeast will be like, "Oh, keep your hand on the table, and the last person with their hand wins a million dollars." It's like if that's your sense of money, it's completely warped and skewed.

我认为他是一个很棒的人，但这完全扭曲了我儿子的金钱观，因为 MrBeast 会说，“哦，把手放在桌子上，最后一个把手放在桌子上的人会赢得一百万美元。”就好像如果这就是你对金钱的感觉，它就完全扭曲和扭曲了。

And so look, it's a tough way to live.

所以你看，这是一种艰难的生活方式。

And I think the more of that angst that people have of, "I'm inadequate, I need to get ahead," the better society is going to be, the more technology we're going to have.

我认为人们对“我能力不足，我需要出人头地”的焦虑越多，社会就会变得越好，我们就会拥有更多的技术。

Great example of this is what decades were the most technologically innovative?

一个很好的例子是哪几十年是技术创新程度最高的？

By far, it's not even close.

到目前为止，还差得很远。

It was in 1930s, the Great Depression, and the 1940s, World War II, when society was on fire.

那是20世纪30年代的大萧条和1940年代的第二次世界大战，社会火热。

That's when every business, every scientist, every entrepreneur woke up every morning and said, "I need to figure this out right now, today, immediately." During the Great Depression, if you were a business owner, it was, "If I don't figure out a way to become more efficient, I'm bankrupt tomorrow." So, that was the birth of a lot of the assembly lines, it was the birth of the grocery store, the birth of the laundromat.

那时，每个企业、每个科学家、每个企业家每天早上醒来都会说：“我需要立即、今天、立即解决这个问题。”在大萧条时期，如果你是一名企业主，你会说：“如果我不找到提高效率的方法，我明天就会破产。”所以，这就是许多装配线的诞生，这是杂货店的诞生，自助洗衣店的诞生。

Every business got just better at what they do.

每个企业都在自己的工作上做得更好。

And the ones that didn't went out of business immediately.

那些没有立即倒闭的企业。

World War II was, if we don't figure out new technologies, we're going to lose everything.

第二次世界大战是，如果我们不找出新技术，我们就会失去一切。

Hitler's going to control the planet.

希特勒将控制这个星球。

So, that was nuclear energy, radar, jets.

这就是核能、雷达、喷气机。

Go on down the list of things that we benefit from today happened because of that social angst that we had back then.

继续列举我们今天受益的事情是因为我们当时的社会焦虑而发生的。

And so I think there's so much evidence that society progresses when things are a little bit on fire, not too much on fire, because then you just get overwhelmed with it.

所以我认为有很多证据表明，当事情有一点火热时，社会就会进步，而不是太火热，因为那样你就会被它淹没。

But if you have a little bit of angst of, "I need to wake up.

但如果你有一点焦虑，“我需要醒来。

I need to do this." And when societies become fat and happy and decadent, or when companies do this, companies that just are minting money and there's no pressure on it, they have more money than they know what to do with, that's the downfall of a lot of companies.

我需要这样做。”当社会变得肥胖、快乐和颓废时，或者当公司这样做时，那些只是在铸钱而没有压力的公司，他们拥有的钱多得不知道该怎么用，这就是很多公司的垮台。

Sears, IBM, Intel, Boeing, who are either not around or are shells of their former selves.

西尔斯、IBM、英特尔、波音，这些公司要么不存在了，要么就只剩下外壳了。

I think you can tie a lot of that to the success that they had in the past when there was no pressure to innovate and get ahead.

我认为你可以将这很大程度上与他们过去在没有创新和进步压力的情况下所取得的成功联系起来。

It was just a culture of, we have so much lying around here that we can do anything that we want.

这只是一种文化，我们这里有很多东西，我们可以做任何我们想做的事情。

I had a guy tell me one time who said, "Every business should have a little bit of debt, because it keeps you in check, keeps your ambitions in line of waking up and being like, 'No, I have to succeed this year because we have debt to pay off.'" And when you have too much freedom and a little bit too much autonomy, you have a higher chance of just letting it slip away.

有一次，一个人告诉我，他说：“每个企业都应该有一点债务，因为它可以让你受到控制，让你的雄心壮志在醒来时会说，‘不，我今年必须成功，因为我们有债务要偿还。’”当你拥有太多的自由和一点点太多的自主权时，你就更有可能让它溜走。

What made you great when you were young and poor and broke and hungry, slips away the wealthier you become.

当你年轻、贫穷、破产和饥饿时，那些让你变得伟大的东西，随着你变得更加富有而消失了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Tell me what you think of this mental exercise.

告诉我你对这个心理练习的看法。

As you're describing this to me, I'm thinking about how at different stages of my career, first academic science, and I still teach, but I shut down my animal lab, still involved in some human research, but mainly focused on the podcast these days.

正如你向我描述的那样，我正在考虑如何在我职业生涯的不同阶段，首先是学术科学，我仍然教书，但我关闭了我的动物实验室，仍然参与一些人类研究，但这些天主要关注播客。

I can look to different things around me that were the forces pulling on me.

我可以关注周围不同的事物，这些事物是拉动我的力量。

I like to think in terms of carrot and stick.

我喜欢用胡萝卜加大棒的方式来思考。

For those that don't know what that is, because we have a lot of listeners from outside the US, carrot is the thing you're working towards, the enticing thing, the reward.

对于那些不知道那是什么的人来说，因为我们有很多来自美国以外的听众，胡萝卜是你正在努力的东西，诱人的东西，奖励。

Stick is the punishment.

棍棒就是惩罚。

Carrot and stick.

胡萝卜加大棒。

Because frankly, that's how the brain works, carrot and stick, right?

因为坦率地说，这就是大脑的工作原理，胡萝卜加大棒，对吧？

And a lot of what we're talking about today is carrot and sticks of different sizes, different types, et cetera.

我们今天谈论的很多内容都是不同大小、不同类型的胡萝卜加大棒，等等。

For every stage of my career, graduate student, post-doc, professor before tenure, professor after getting tenure, it's kind of an interesting concept.

对于我职业生涯的每个阶段，研究生、博士后、终身教职前的教授、获得终身教职后的教授，这都是一个有趣的概念。

People think of it as job for life, but it's really academic freedom, and you're still on the fundraising treadmill.

人们认为这是终生的工作，但这实际上是学术自由，而你仍然在筹款跑步机上。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Or even as a podcaster.

或者甚至作为播客。

What the force was inside me, and not trying to make this about me, I know that there are different people that I'm trying to satisfy and, of course, satisfy my own curiosity and intellect, but there are forces.

我内心的力量是什么，而不是试图让这一切发生在我身上，我知道我试图满足不同的人，当然，满足我自己的好奇心和智力，但力量是存在的。

There's the, I'm part of a group.

就是这样，我是一个团体的一员。

I'm part of a team here.

我是这里团队的一员。

I can't let them down.

我不能让他们失望。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So, it doesn't matter how well I slept last night.

所以，我昨晚睡得有多好并不重要。

I happened to sleep pretty well last night, but doesn't matter.

昨晚我碰巧睡得很好，但没关系。

I got to show up.

我必须出现。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You got to suit up and show up, as they say.

正如他们所说，你必须盛装出席。

Do you think it's worthwhile for people to stop wherever they are in their life arc and just think about, where are these forces pulling us, the carrots and the sticks?

你认为人们值得在生活中的任何地方停下来想一想，这些胡萝卜和大棒的力量把我们拉向哪里？

Because I think therein lies a lot of information.

因为我认为这里面蕴藏着很多信息。

Are you working for an expectation that you need to fulfill because you did it before?

你是否正在为了一种你需要实现的期望而工作，因为你以前曾经这样做过？

I sometimes think about professional athletes.

我有时会想到职业运动员。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

They sometimes have a shorter professional life than in other careers because just physical capabilities give way.

有时，他们的职业寿命比其他职业要短，因为只是身体能力下降了。

But what drives them, I often want to know what pulls them.

但是什么驱动着他们，我经常想知道是什么在拉动他们。

Where do they feel obligated?

他们在哪里感到有义务？

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Not just what the drive is, but where do they feel obligated?

不仅仅是动力是什么，还有他们在哪里感到有义务？

Where do they feel pulled?

他们在哪里感到被拉扯？

Is it to the general public?

是面向普通大众吗？

Is it their parents?

是他们的父母吗？

Is it their bank account?

是他们的银行账户吗？

Is it the fear that they're going to have to retire at some point?

是担心他们在某个时候不得不退休吗？

Do you ever think about this kind of stuff?

你有没有想过这样的事情？

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

I think a lot of it is tied to your identity of just who do you see in the mirror when you wake up every morning.

我认为这很大程度上与你的身份有关，即你每天早上醒来时在镜子里看到的是谁。

And if your identity is, I'm a professional athlete, if your identity is, I'm a podcaster, I am a rich person, whatever it might be, then that's what's pulling you.

如果你的身份是，我是一名职业运动员，如果你的身份是，我是一名播客，我是一个富人，无论是什么，那么这就是吸引你的原因。

It's that source of your identity.

这是你身份的来源。

So, this gets back to the Paul Graham idea of keep your identity small.

所以，这又回到了保罗·格雷厄姆（Paul Graham）的想法，即保持你的身份小。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

I think he meant it mainly in the context of politics, of politics can just poison your identity, and it really affects your thinking.

我认为他的意思主要是在政治背景下，政治只会毒害你的身份，它确实会影响你的思维。

But keeping your identity small for a lot of things, I think, is a great point of view.

但我认为，在很多事情上保持你的身份很小是一个很好的观点。

The more you look in the mirror and say, "I am a blank," doesn't matter what that is, I'm a professor, I'm an author, whatever it is, it's hard to give that up because it's part of your identity.

你越是照镜子说，“我是一片空白”，无论那是什么，我是一名教授，我是一名作家，无论是什么，都很难放弃，因为它是你身份的一部分。

I saw this with my own dad.

我和我自己的父亲一起看到了这个。

He was a doctor, and he retired, and he went back to work a year later.

他是一名医生，退休了，一年后又重返工作岗位。

Because I think at least part of it was when he looked in the mirror, he had to say, "I am a doctor." That was his identity.

因为我认为至少有一部分是当他照镜子时，他不得不说，“我是一名医生。”这就是他的身份。

And when he retired, he couldn't say that anymore, and it drove him crazy.

当他退休后，他就不能再这么说了，这让他发疯了。

I think that's true for a lot of people.

我认为对很多人来说都是如此。

Now, that can be great.

现在，那太好了。

For him, it was great, and I think for me, my identity, I think my core identity is I'm a father, I'm a husband.

对他来说，这很棒，我认为对我来说，我的身份，我认为我的核心身份是我是一个父亲，我是一个丈夫。

I hope to be a friend.

我希望能成为朋友。

But then maybe it's, I'm an author, and if I had to give that up, it might sting a little bit.

但也许是，我是一名作家，如果我不得不放弃这一点，可能会有点刺痛。

It's not maybe the core of my identity, but it's right there.

它也许不是我身份的核心，但它就在那里。

And I think for a lot of people, if you're successful, core to their identity is, I'm a person who makes a lot of money.

我认为对于很多人来说，如果你成功了，他们身份的核心就是，我是一个赚很多钱的人。

I'm a person who makes X dollars per year, and they're unable to give that up.

我是一个每年赚 X 美元的人，他们无法放弃它。

And that, again, I think if we're talking about money, that's when money becomes a liability, is when it's ingrained in your identity and it's controlling you.

再说一遍，我认为如果我们谈论金钱，那么金钱就会成为一种负债，当它根深蒂固地融入你的身份并控制你时。

You're not using it as a tool.

你没有把它当作一个工具来使用。

It's using you as its little marionette doll to control you every day.

它把你当作它的小牵线木偶来每天控制你。

And I think that's when a lot of people go astray with their happiness with money, is when it starts controlling them because it's so core to who they see in the mirror every day.

我认为，当很多人因金钱的幸福而误入歧途时，金钱开始控制他们，因为金钱对于他们每天在镜子中看到的人来说是如此核心。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, that's like that cartoon of the person standing with a little cage in front of their face.

是的，这就像那幅漫画，画里的人面前站着一个小笼子。

They're giving up freedom by virtue of some mental construct.

他们由于某种心理构造而放弃了自由。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I wonder if perhaps even Better than Paul's idea of shrinking one's identity to make it operational and make it verb-based.

我想知道是否可能比保罗缩小个人身份以使其可操作并以动词为基础的想法更好。

Because it's one thing to say, "I'm going to not use my professional title of podcaster, professor, author, doctor," but if one gets to the verb function that drove the pursuit of things in the first place-

因为说“我不会使用播客、教授、作家、医生等我的专业头衔”是一回事，但如果人们首先想到了推动对事物的追求的动词功能——

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

I enjoy doing this

我喜欢这样做

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

I'm a curious person.

我是一个好奇的人。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I seem to mention him all the time, and I'm just going to do it because it's my podcast.

我似乎一直在提到他，我只是这么做，因为这是我的播客。

Rick Rubin's a close friend, and I feel so lucky for that friendship.

里克·鲁宾是我的好朋友，我为这段友谊感到非常幸运。

Of course, I love the music he's produced, but that's not why I love the friendship.

当然，我喜欢他制作的音乐，但这不是我喜欢友谊的原因。

I happen to just really think Rick's a great guy.

我碰巧真的认为瑞克是一个很棒的人。

But because he's so verb and action-based, almost everything Rick talks about in terms of creativity and productivity is about discarding with titles and concepts of who you were before and just being in the verb state of wherever you happen to be at that point in your life and creating offerings.

但因为他是如此以动词和行动为基础，所以里克在创造力和生产力方面谈论的几乎所有内容都是关于放弃你以前是谁的头衔和概念，而只是处于你生命中那个时刻碰巧处于的动词状态并创造产品。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And he actually likes to remove the concept of an audience.

他实际上喜欢消除观众的概念。

He actually talks about this is your offering to God.

他实际上谈到这是你对上帝的奉献。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Mm.

嗯。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And the audience may or may not like it, but that, in his words, is the way to frame it, because otherwise you end up trying to satisfy people.

观众可能喜欢也可能不喜欢，但用他的话说，这就是构建它的方式，因为否则你最终会试图满足人们的需求。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Oh, absolutely.

哦，绝对是。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And then you're no longer in the process of exploring your curiosity or creativity.

然后你就不再处于探索你的好奇心或创造力的过程中。

So yeah, I've decided at this moment, and I'll put it on record, that I'm not going to think of myself as a podcaster.

所以，是的，我此刻已经决定，并且我会将其记录在案，我不会将自己视为播客。

I did a lot of things.

我做了很多事情。

I did pursued skateboarding, pursued tropical fish tanks, pursued science and research science, teaching, and then this, public education and podcasting.

我确实追求滑板，追求热带鱼缸，追求科学和研究科学，教学，然后是公共教育和播客。

I fully expect that in five to 10 years I'll be doing something completely different.

我完全期望在五到十年内我会做一些完全不同的事情。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Sure.

当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But it'll still be attached to the verb state that drove every single one of those professions.

但它仍然会附加到推动这些职业中每一项的动词状态。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Or every single one of those pursuits.

或者这些追求中的每一项。

Because as Rick's taught me, it's the energy that you need to continue to tap into that is self-rewarding, the feelings of delight, of friction, and then release when you solve a problem.

因为正如里克教给我的那样，你需要继续挖掘自我奖励的能量，喜悦的感觉，摩擦的感觉，然后在解决问题时释放出来。

It's not really about the profession or the title or even the resources that come from that, but that in fact the greatest resources, in particular financial resources, coming from identifying the verb state of being in pursuit of something that's truly unique to you.

这实际上与职业、头衔或什至来自于此的资源无关，但事实上，最大的资源，特别是财务资源，来自于确定追求对你来说真正独特的东西的动词状态。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And that changes over time.

随着时间的推移，情况会发生变化。

I'm always amazed at these examples like the Warren Buffets and these people that have been investing their whole life.

我总是对像沃伦·巴菲特这样的例子以及这些一生都在投资的人感到惊讶。

You pointed this out in your book that one of the fundamental things about Buffett being so successful is that he's had a lot of time investing.

您在书中指出，巴菲特如此成功的根本原因之一是他投入了大量时间进行投资。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Been doing it since he was 11, and he's 93.

他从 11 岁起就开始这样做，现在已经 93 岁了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Doesn't seem like he needs another venue.

看来他不需要另一个场地。

It seems like he's got it dialed.

看来他已经拨通了。

That's his venue.

那是他的场地。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

If he were a golfer, he'd be golfing at 93.

如果他是一名高尔夫球手，他会打出 93 杆的成绩。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

He's doing it because he loves to do it.

他这样做是因为他喜欢这样做。

I think for me as a writer, what's always been the case, and I think this might really apply to your own career, I've always written for an audience of one, which is myself.

我认为对于我作为一名作家来说，情况一直如此，我认为这可能真的适用于你自己的职业生涯，我一直为一个读者写作，那就是我自己。

I just want to write things that I think are interesting.

我只是想写一些我认为有趣的东西。

I want to write stories that I find appealing.

我想写一些我觉得有吸引力的故事。

I want to write it in a style that I would enjoy reading.

我想以我喜欢阅读的风格来写它。

And I don't care that much about the audience who might read it.

我不太关心可能会读到它的读者。

Of course, I want them to read it and maybe buy the books and enjoy it, but I'm writing for myself.

当然，我希望他们能够阅读，也许还可以购买这些书并享受其中，但我是为自己而写。

And I think you always do your best work when you do that, if you're writing or producing a podcast for an audience of one, which is you.

我认为，当你这样做时，如果你正在为一个观众（也就是你自己）编写或制作播客，那么你总是会做出最好的工作。

And so, I think if you're doing it otherwise, it's performative.

所以，我认为如果你不这样做，那就是表演性的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

And people do much worse work.

人们所做的工作要差得多。

They're much less creative.

他们的创造力要差得多。

They're much less enjoyable when it's performative, when you start off by asking what does the audience want to hear or see-

当它是表演性的，当你一开始就问观众想听到或看到什么时，他们就不那么愉快了——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, that never works

是的，那永远行不通

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

...

...

and then let's do that.

然后我们就这样做吧。

But that's what most people do.

但这就是大多数人所做的。

And even what does every Writing 101 teacher teach their students?

甚至每位写作 101 老师都教给学生什么？

Know your audience.

了解你的听众。

I don't think it's good advice because know your audience very quickly becomes pander to your audience.

我认为这不是一个好建议，因为了解你的观众很快就会迎合你的观众。

Not just as writers, but in any form of work that you do, pandering to your boss, pandering to your quarterly metrics, whatever they might be.

不仅是作为作家，而且在你从事的任何形式的工作中，迎合你的老板，迎合你的季度指标，无论它们是什么。

You're always going to do your best work if you have the independence and the autonomy to have an audience of one, which is yourself.

如果你有独立性和自主权，拥有一个听众，那就是你自己，你总是能做出最好的工作。

Brian Chesky of Airbnb talks about this.

Airbnb 的 Brian Chesky 谈到了这一点。

He's like, "Don't build a product that 1,000 people like.

他说，“不要开发出 1,000 人喜欢的产品。

Build a product that 100 people love or that one person you love and use it." That's when you're going to always do your best work.

打造一款 100 人喜欢或您喜欢的人使用的产品。”那时你将始终尽你最大的努力。

You're not trying to manage a product or a book or a podcast towards some metric or goal.

您并不是试图为了某些指标或目标来管理产品、书籍或播客。

You're doing it because you love doing it.

你这样做是因为你喜欢这样做。

Much easier said than done for a lot of careers, because if you're working for a company, you do have metrics you have to follow.

对于很多职业来说，说起来容易做起来难，因为如果你在一家公司工作，你确实有必须遵循的指标。

You have formulas and policies you have to follow.

你有必须遵循的公式和政策。

So it's not that everyone can do this, but it's unavoidable that you're always going to do your best work when it's yours and you're doing it for yourself, not because you're trying to reach some metric.

因此，并不是每个人都能做到这一点，但不可避免的是，当属于你的工作并且你是为自己做的时候，你总是会尽力而为，而不是因为你试图达到某个指标。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I guess the phrase, be a lifer, I used to think that meant if you were a musician, stay a musician.

我猜想这句话是“成为一个终生的人”，我曾经认为这意味着如果你是一名音乐家，就继续当一名音乐家。

If you're in finance, stay in finance.

如果你从事金融行业，就留在金融行业。

But I think now I'm going to revise that to one wants to be a lifer at tapping into the energy of pursuing things that are really meaningful to them in that moment.

但我想现在我要修改一下，一个人想成为一个终生的人，利用能量去追求那一刻对他们真正有意义的事情。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In that phase of life.

在人生的那个阶段。

Because it's so different.

因为它是如此不同。

When I was a kid, I was obsessed with fish tanks and tropical birds and then skateboarding, punk rock music, da da da.

当我还是个孩子的时候，我迷恋鱼缸和热带鸟类，然后迷恋滑板、朋克摇滚音乐、哒哒哒。

And it changed.

它改变了。

The venue changed.

场地变了。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But we don't really change in terms of identity very much, right?

但我们的身份并没有真正改变太多，对吧？

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Right.

对。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

These professions and these bank accounts, we're not fundamentally changed by them.

这些职业和这些银行账户，我们并没有从根本上被它们改变。

It's really a bunch of verb states that drive all this.

这实际上是一堆动词状态驱动了这一切。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

And I actually hope that in 20 years I'm doing something different, that I'm not writing about the same topic.

我实际上希望 20 年后我能做一些不同的事情，我写的不是同一主题。

So maybe I hope I'm still writing and thinking and reading and learning, but if you're always doing the same thing, I think someone like Buffett is an incredibly oddball, rare bird, who's been doing the same thing for 80 years and loves it.

所以也许我希望我仍在写作、思考、阅读和学习，但如果你总是做同样的事情，我认为像巴菲特这样的人是一个令人难以置信的奇怪、稀有的鸟，他80年来一直在做同样的事情并且热爱它。

I want to grow and adapt and evolve in what I'm doing.

我想在我所做的事情中成长、适应和发展。

But if something becomes core to your identity, then it's hard to release that and let go.

但如果某件事成为你身份的核心，那么就很难释放它并放手。

You feel like you have to keep doing it even when it's not that fun anymore, and you're not getting the dopamine rush of trying something new.

你觉得你必须继续做下去，即使它不再那么有趣，而且你也不会因为尝试新事物而产生多巴胺激增。

You're attached to something.

你依附于某物。

You keep being a lawyer or whatever it might be because that's your identity, even when you don't like it anymore.

你继续当律师或者其他什么可能的身份，因为那是你的身份，即使你不再喜欢它了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Think about Michael Jordan playing baseball, which he did for a little while.

想想迈克尔·乔丹打棒球，他打过一段时间。

He wanted to play professional baseball.

他想打职业棒球。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So he gave himself the shot.

所以他给自己开了一枪。

I think it's awesome, even though it didn't turn out as well as basketball turned out for him.

我认为这太棒了，尽管结果并不像他在篮球方面的表现那么好。

Because it just reflected his inherently competitive high-performance nature.

因为这恰恰体现了他与生俱来的竞争高绩效本质。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Had to keep doing something.

必须继续做某事。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Or Bezos, who I keep bringing up.

或者是贝佐斯，我一直提起他。

But you build the biggest, most successful company in the world, Amazon, and what do you do in your retirement?

但你创建了世界上最大、最成功的公司亚马逊，那么你退休后会做什么呢？

You start a rocket company kind of thing.

你创办了一家火箭公司之类的事情。

Maybe he did, I don't know this, I don't want to put words in his mouth, but maybe he did get a little bit bored with Amazon, and it was he needed to do something else.

也许他确实这么做了，我不知道这一点，我不想把话放在他嘴里，但也许他确实对亚马逊有点厌倦了，他需要做点别的事情。

But he's not going to retire.

但他不会退休。

He's not going to play golf.

他不打算打高尔夫球。

He's not going to sit on his boat.

他不会坐在他的船上。

He's going to go build another company.

他要去建立另一家公司。

Always have to be doing something, even if it's growing and adapting.

总是必须做一些事情，即使它正在成长和适应。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You're working on a new book, and I eagerly anticipate the release of that new book.

您正在写一本新书，我热切地期待着那本新书的发行。

When's it coming out?

什么时候出来？

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

September 2025.

2025 年 9 月。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Okay, so we got a little while to wait.

好的，所以我们还有一点时间等待。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Are you willing to share a few things that you're thinking about or that we might expect to see in that book?

您愿意分享一些您正在考虑的事情或者我们可能希望在那本书中看到的事情吗？

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

I think there are pieces of the book that you and I have talked about today.

我想你和我今天已经讨论过这本书的一些内容。

The book is called "The Art of Spending Money." And I make a point of the book is not called "The Science of Spending Money" because spending money is not a science.

这本书的名字叫《花钱的艺术》。我强调这本书不叫《花钱的科学》，因为花钱不是一门科学。

It's not something where you can say, "Here's the formula.

这不是你可以说：“这是公式。

It works for everybody." It's an art.

它对每个人都有效。”这是一门艺术。

And what is an art?

什么是艺术？

It is different for everybody.

这对每个人来说都是不同的。

It's subjective.

这是主观的。

It's often contradictory.

这常常是矛盾的。

And I think that's what an appropriate way to spend money should be.

我认为这才是正确的花钱方式。

So at no point in the book do I say, "Here's how you should spend your money," because I don't think anybody can accurately do that for a broad audience.

因此，我在书中从来没有说过“这就是你应该如何花钱”，因为我认为没有人能够准确地为广大读者做到这一点。

It's a look at the psychology of envy, of keeping up with the Joneses, of social aspiration, of identity that we've been talking about, managing money and kids, of being jealous of other people, of wanting to get attention for yourself.

它探讨了嫉妒心理、攀比心理、社会抱负、我们一直在谈论的身份、管理金钱和孩子、嫉妒他人、想要让自己受到关注的心理。

It's a look at the psychology of that without offering any firm concrete advice, which I would say a lot of people don't like that.

这是对心理的观察，但没有提供任何坚定的具体建议，我想说很多人不喜欢这样。

A lot of people are like, "Well, just tell me what to do." But I try to make a point in the beginning, same with my first book, "Psychology of Money" of I can't tell you what to do because I don't know you, and what's right for you is going to be maybe not right for me.

很多人都会说：“好吧，告诉我该怎么做。”但我试图在一开始就阐明一个观点，就像我的第一本书《金钱心理学》一样，我无法告诉你该怎么做，因为我不认识你，而适合你的东西可能不适合我。

You have to figure it out for yourself.

你必须自己弄清楚。

But I can tell you what's probably going through your head as you're going on that journey.

但我可以告诉你，当你踏上这段旅程时，你的脑海中可能会想到什么。

I can tell you about the psychological pitfalls and challenges and advice that is psychological.

我可以告诉你心理上的陷阱和挑战以及心理上的建议。

It's not what you should do, but here's how most people and why most people fall for envy, and why if you understand the mechanics of envy, how silly it can be.

这不是你应该做的，但这就是大多数人如何以及为什么大多数人会陷入嫉妒，以及为什么如果你了解嫉妒的机制，它会是多么愚蠢。

That's what the book dives into.

这就是本书所深入探讨的内容。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In a lot of ways, what sounds like you're describing is kind of identifying the sources of self-seduction.

在很多方面，听起来你所描述的都是识别自我诱惑的来源。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Where we, by virtue of social media or just by virtue of being human, we compare what we have to see if it really is what it is.

我们凭借社交媒体或仅仅凭借人类的身份，对我们必须看到的东西进行比较，看看它是否真的如此。

You would think that we would be pretty good as a species at just experiencing things, kind of like the dog sitting next to the lake.

你可能会认为，作为一个物种，我们非常擅长体验事物，就像坐在湖边的狗一样。

Given that we can understand that we have this propensity to compare and to regret things of past but not be able to anticipate future regret, you'd think we would be better at that, but clearly we're not.

鉴于我们可以理解，我们有这种比较和后悔过去的事情的倾向，但无法预测未来的遗憾，你会认为我们会在这方面做得更好，但显然我们不是。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Well, I guess this gets back to basic evolution.

好吧，我想这又回到了基本的进化。

Evolution doesn't care if you're happy.

进化并不关心你是否快乐。

It cares that you reproduce and you grow over time.

它关心你的繁殖和随着时间的推移而成长。

That's what it's maximizing for.

这就是它最大化的目的。

It doesn't really care whether you're having a good time during the process.

它并不真正关心你在这个过程中是否玩得开心。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Make more of yourself and take care of the young, and then you're dispensable.

多做点自己，照顾好年轻人，然后你就变得可有可无了。

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

Keep going.

继续。

Louis C.K.

路易斯·C.K.

says, "More of me." That's what we're trying to do.

说：“更多的是我。”这就是我们正在努力做的事情。

And whether you're happy or not doesn't really play into the situation, and actually might reward the person who is gaining a ton of resources, even if they're miserable in the process, who's making a ton of money in the process, even if they wake up miserable every morning.

无论你高兴与否，都不会真正影响到这种情况，实际上可能会奖励那些获得大量资源的人，即使他们在这个过程中很痛苦，在这个过程中赚了很多钱，即使他们每天早上醒来都很痛苦。

They're gaining a lot of resources that might increase their fitness over time.

他们正在获得大量资源，随着时间的推移，这些资源可能会增强他们的健康水平。

Happiness doesn't play much of a role.

幸福并没有发挥多大作用。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Do you think birth rates are going down because people feel that they have to use more of what they earn for themselves, or that it's harder to establish a relationship to money and resources that makes them feel capable of taking care of others?

您认为出生率下降是否是因为人们觉得他们必须将更多的收入用于自己，或者更难与金钱和资源建立联系以让他们感到有能力照顾他人？

Morgan Housel:

摩根豪塞尔：

I think it's so complex.

我认为这太复杂了。

It doesn't lead to simple answers, but I think there is a lot of evidence that what happens, why societies all over the world, this has always been the case, have fewer kids when they become wealthier, is because their expectations for those kids go up.

这并不能得出简单的答案，但我认为有很多证据表明，为什么世界各地的社会在变得更富有时，孩子的数量会减少，这是因为他们对这些孩子的期望提高了。