Master the Creative Process | Twyla Tharp
Andrew Huberman: You have a reputation for having risen early and gotten to the gym by 5:00 a.m., for two hours day in after day out.
Andrew Huberman：您以早起并在凌晨 5:00 之前到达健身房而闻名，日复一日地锻炼两个小时。
Tell us about that ritual, and do you still enjoy it?
告诉我们这个仪式，你还喜欢它吗？
Twyla Tharp: It's not a ritual, and I never enjoyed it.
Twyla Tharp：这不是一种仪式，我从来不喜欢它。
It's a reality, and you do it because you need an instrument that you can challenge.
这是现实，你这样做是因为你需要一个可以挑战的工具。
Just set the mechanism for the day, you're going to have to do it.
只要设定好当天的机制，你就必须这样做。
It's kind of boring, and it's kind of loathsome.
这有点无聊，也有点令人厌恶。
Andrew Huberman: Could you give us a bit of insight into your inner dialogue around days when you don't want to go?
Andrew Huberman：您能否给我们一些关于您不想去的日子里的内心对话的见解？
Is there a self-talk or have you learned to push aside the voice that says, "Maybe not today"?
有没有自言自语，或者你是否学会了把“也许不是今天”的声音放在一边？
Twyla Tharp: It's simple.
特怀拉·撒普：很简单。
If you don't work when you don't want to work, you're not going to be able to work when you do want to work.
如果你不想工作时不工作，那么当你想工作时你也无法工作。
Andrew Huberman: Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
Andrew Huberman：欢迎来到 Huberman 实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
Andrew Huberman: I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，我是斯坦福大学医学院的神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Twyla Tharp.
今天我的客人是特怀拉·撒普。
Twyla Tharp is a world-renowned dancer and choreographer.
特怀拉·撒普 (Twyla Tharp) 是一位世界著名的舞蹈家和编舞家。
Andrew Huberman: Her on-stage and film works easily place her not just in the top one percent of all choreographers of all time, but also among the top tier of all creative artists past and present.
安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：她的舞台和电影作品不仅使她跻身有史以来所有编舞家的前百分之一，而且也跻身于过去和现在所有创意艺术家的顶级之列。
I knew I wanted to host Twyla on this podcast after listening to her book, "The Creative Habit," where she spells out how to build a schedule, habits, and routines that make your best creative expressions come to life.
在听了 Twyla 的书《创意习惯》后，我知道我想在这个播客中担任主持人，她在书中阐述了如何制定时间表、习惯和惯例，让你最好的创意表达成为现实。
What I love about it is it's direct and it's action-oriented.
我喜欢它的原因是它的直接性和以行动为导向。
There's nothing mystical about it.
这没有什么神秘的。
Andrew Huberman: She explains in her book how even for people that have just one hour a day to write or sing or draw or paint or whatever, to get the most from that time in terms of creative output.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：她在她的书中解释了即使对于每天只有一小时写作、唱歌、绘画或绘画等的人来说，如何从这段时间中获得最大的创造性产出。
Then, as I learned more about her, I was also super impressed that even in her 60s, by the way, she's 84 now, she could deadlift more than 200 pounds, which is more than twice her body weight, bench press her body weight for three clean repetitions, and was taking up boxing to keep her movement and reflexes sharp.
然后，随着我对她的了解越来越多，我也印象深刻，即使在她 60 多岁的时候，顺便说一句，她现在已经 84 岁了，她可以硬拉超过 200 磅，这是她体重的两倍多，卧推她的体重可以完成 3 次干净的重复，并且开始练习拳击以保持她的运动和反应敏锐。
Andrew Huberman: As you'll see today, she is a phenom, and it comes by way of hard work.
安德鲁·休伯曼：正如您今天所看到的，她是一位杰出人物，而这一切都来自于努力工作。
She's still in the gym every single morning at 5:00 a.m.
每天早上 5:00 她仍然在健身房。
for two full hours.
整整两个小时。
Today, we discuss how to build self-discipline in and around your creative mind, and we discuss movement as a language.
今天，我们讨论如何在创造性思维中和周围建立自律，并讨论运动作为一种语言。
There's this new idea emerging in neuroscience that bodily movement, then music, and then speech, is how humans came to communicate with each other.
神经科学中出现了一个新的想法：身体运动，然后是音乐，然后是言语，是人类相互交流的方式。
We discuss that and how movement can help us process and explain our emotions and our ideas.
我们讨论这个问题，以及运动如何帮助我们处理和解释我们的情绪和想法。
Andrew Huberman: We also discuss Twyla's life growing up on a farm and how that shaped her mindset about work and community.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我们还讨论了特怀拉在农场长大的生活，以及这如何塑造了她对工作和社区的看法。
And we also talk about what it means to have and express your unique creativity and how to evolve your sense of taste.
我们还讨论了拥有和表达你独特的创造力意味着什么，以及如何发展你的味觉。
Oh yeah, and we also discuss telepathy.
哦，是的，我们还讨论了心灵感应。
You'll notice the rapport between Twyla and I is very different than is typical for other Huberman Lab podcasts I've done.
您会注意到我和 Twyla 之间的融洽关系与我做过的其他 Huberman Lab 播客中的典型关系非常不同。
She is a real firecracker, and we had a ton of fun exploring and challenging ideas, mostly her challenging me.
她是一个真正的鞭炮，我们在探索和挑战想法中度过了很多乐趣，主要是她在挑战我。
Andrew Huberman: It was a true honor and pleasure to learn from such a virtuoso of the arts and, frankly, of life.
安德鲁·休伯曼：向这样一位艺术大师学习，坦率地说，向生活大师学习，我感到非常荣幸和高兴。
And as you'll soon learn, we can all learn a lot from Twyla.
正如您很快就会了解到的那样，我们都可以从 Twyla 身上学到很多东西。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.
为了与这个主题保持一致，今天的节目确实有赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Twyla Tharp.
现在我与特怀拉·撒普进行讨论。
Andrew Huberman: Twyla Tharp, welcome.
安德鲁·休伯曼：特怀拉·撒普，欢迎。
Twyla Tharp: Thank you.
特怀拉·撒普：谢谢。
Andrew Huberman: Huge fan.
安德鲁·休伯曼：超级粉丝。
Huge, huge fan, and love, love, love your book, "The Creative Habit."
超级超级粉丝，非常非常喜欢你的书《创意习惯》。
Twyla Tharp: Thank you.
特怀拉·撒普：谢谢。
Andrew Huberman: It's just an incredible book, and it's taught me so much.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这是一本令人难以置信的书，它教会了我很多东西。
And I want to talk about that today, but I want to talk about a bunch of things.
今天我想谈谈这个，但我想谈谈很多事情。
Let's start with what a spine is.
我们先从什么是脊柱开始吧。
I think this is such an important component of the book, and this concept of a spine, and the way I think about this is that many, many people feel they might have something inside them that they want to put into the world.
我认为这是这本书的一个重要组成部分，脊柱的概念，我对此的看法是，很多很多人觉得他们内心可能有一些东西想要投入到世界中。
Andrew Huberman: They want to access their creativity, or they're creative, and there's so much information out there about how to go about that.
Andrew Huberman：他们想要发挥自己的创造力，或者说他们有创造力，并且有很多关于如何实现这一点的信息。
But this notion of a spine is really critical because it keeps us on track.
但脊柱的概念非常重要，因为它让我们走上正轨。
Otherwise, it can be a wandering in the desert, suddenly you're swimming in the ocean, suddenly the phone, you get a text.
否则，这可能是在沙漠中徘徊，突然你在海洋中游泳，突然接到电话，你收到一条短信。
And please explain what a spine is and why this is such a vital concept for anyone that wants to create anything.
请解释一下脊柱是什么，以及为什么这对于任何想要创造任何东西的人来说都是一个如此重要的概念。
Twyla Tharp: "Spine" means focus.
Twyla Tharp：“脊柱”的意思是焦点。
"Spine" means concentration.
“脊柱”的意思是专注。
If you think about it geometrically, the spine is the center, both laterally and vertically.
如果你从几何角度思考，脊柱就是横向和纵向的中心。
So, if we're talking physically, you have a right and a left side, you have a top, and you have a bottom, and these elements are connected through the center, right?
所以，如果我们从物理上来说，你有一个右侧和一个左侧，你有一个顶部，你有一个底部，并且这些元素通过中心连接，对吗？
So, they have to be coordinated.
因此，它们必须协调一致。
You simply cannot function.
你根本无法发挥作用。
Twyla Tharp: If your right side is going one way and then your left side's going this other way, you're going nowhere.
Twyla Tharp：如果你的右侧朝一个方向走，然后你的左侧朝另一个方向走，那么你将一事无成。
So you have to move off your center.
所以你必须离开你的中心。
In terms of how you organize information, there's also a center to it.
就如何组织信息而言，也有一个中心。
It's like, okay, over here you have this and this, and you can transfer what you understand from this arena to inform this side, but it has to pass through a common point, and that common point is the center.
就好像，好吧，你这里有这个这个，你可以把你从这个竞技场了解到的东西传递给这边，但是它必须经过一个公共点，那个公共点就是中心。
Twyla Tharp: And until you feel that or one, anyone working, either physically or, let's use the word very broadly and generically, artistically, until you know where you are grounded, where you feel the most confident that you are, what you said, you're at sea.
Twyla Tharp：直到你感觉到这一点或一个，任何人工作，无论是身体上的还是，让我们非常广泛地、一般性地、艺术地使用这个词，直到你知道你在哪里扎根，在哪里你觉得自己最有信心，你所说的，你在海上。
You could be going this way, that way, unless you know how to navigate from the stars, which few people do anymore, you're screwed.
你可能会走这条路，走那条路，除非你知道如何从星星上导航，而现在很少有人知道这一点，否则你就完蛋了。
Andrew Huberman: So when I think about a spine in a scientific paper, I was taught there can only really be one major conclusion, maybe two, but one major conclusion of any paper, even though the data set probably points to 50 different things that are potentially interesting.
Andrew Huberman：因此，当我思考一篇科学论文的主旨时，我被告知实际上只能有一个主要结论，也许有两个，但任何论文都只有一个主要结论，即使数据集可能指向 50 个可能有趣的不同事物。
Andrew Huberman: In terms of a podcast or a movie or a book, it's sometimes not obvious to the reader or to the listener or to the observer what the spine is, but my understanding is that the creator has to understand what the spine is going into it.
安德鲁·休伯曼：就播客、电影或书籍而言，有时对于读者、听众或观察者来说，书脊是什么并不明显，但我的理解是，创作者必须了解书脊的内容。
Andrew Huberman: So could you give a couple of examples from your own work, and maybe if they come to mind, a couple of examples from visual arts or movies or something where it's clear to the creator what the spine is, but it might not be entirely clear to the person watching or consuming the content?
安德鲁·休伯曼：那么你能举几个你自己作品中的例子吗？也许如果你想到的话，可以举几个视觉艺术或电影中的例子，或者创作者很清楚脊柱是什么的东西，但对于观看或消费内容的人来说可能并不完全清楚？
Twyla Tharp: I am a great fan of Agatha Christie and Jonathan Carr, okay?
特怀拉·撒普：我是阿加莎·克里斯蒂和乔纳森·卡尔的忠实粉丝，好吗？
And the reason why is because from the get-go, you know there is one conclusion, but their job is to keep you away from that conclusion for as long as possible.
原因是因为从一开始，你就知道有一个结论，但他们的工作是让你尽可能长时间地远离这个结论。
Andrew Huberman: Who did the crime.
安德鲁·休伯曼：谁犯了罪。
Twyla Tharp: Who did the crime?
特怀拉·撒普：谁犯罪了？
Who's the killer?
凶手是谁？
Who, whatta, whatta.
谁，什么，什么。
What is the crime, for starters?
首先，什么是犯罪？
And they'll delay as long as they can in their singular style, definite modes.
他们会以自己独特的风格、明确的模式尽可能地拖延。
I mean, Agatha Christie, her format is practically that of a sonnet.
我的意思是，阿加莎·克里斯蒂，她的格式实际上是十四行诗。
Twyla Tharp: I'm sure you could actually count words, and I've never seen a study that shows a long, "Okay, she's going to do red herring number one X words in, and this is where she's going to throw in the extra crime to push the tension up to get it to go to here." But we all know we're playing the same game.
Twyla Tharp：我相信你实际上可以数单词，而且我从未见过一项研究显示出很长的内容，“好吧，她会在其中做一些转移注意力的 X 个单词，而这就是她要投入额外犯罪的地方，以加剧紧张局势，使其发展到这里。”但我们都知道我们在玩同一个游戏。
I think that anyone who is successful in communicating with other people gains their trust, gains their confidence that you're not going to screw them.
我认为任何成功与他人沟通的人都会赢得他们的信任，获得他们的信心，相信你不会搞砸他们。
Andrew Huberman: How much do you think it's important to get into the audience's mind about what they want, or is the spine coming solely from the creator?
安德鲁·休伯曼：你认为让观众了解他们想要什么有多重要，或者主旨是否完全来自创作者？
Is it about the creator's relationship to the work, or are you thinking about what the audience wants and what they need?
是关于创作者与作品的关系，还是在考虑观众想要什么、需要什么？
Twyla Tharp: The question about audience and intention is sort of a sensitive one because it's, okay, are you manipulating the audience and are you there just to take advantage of them, or at the other extreme of that spectrum, are you doing it because you're in an ivory tower and you're off here doing your own investigations and maybe they connect, maybe they don't, who cares, right?
Twyla Tharp：关于观众和意图的问题是一个敏感问题，因为好吧，你是否在操纵观众，你只是为了利用他们，或者在这个范围的另一个极端，你这样做是因为你在象牙塔里，你在这里做你自己的调查，也许他们有联系，也许他们没有，谁在乎，对吧？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Twyla Tharp: Those are the two extremes: total manipulation of audience, total disregard of audience.
Twyla Tharp：这是两个极端：完全操纵观众，完全无视观众。
And depending on who I'm working for or with, I do both.
根据我为谁工作或与谁一起工作，我两者都做。
Andrew Huberman: To me, it seems like it's one of the toughest things as a creator to both want to honor your audience's wishes, but you also have something that you want to communicate, and we never know how things are going to land.
安德鲁·休伯曼：对我来说，作为创作者，最困难的事情之一就是既要满足观众的愿望，又要传达一些东西，而我们永远不知道事情会如何发展。
But for somebody who wants to create something, maybe we could orient them toward their own spine or to the spine of the work.
但对于想要创造一些东西的人来说，也许我们可以让他们面向自己的脊柱或作品的脊柱。
Where does that start?
那从哪里开始呢？
Twyla Tharp: Well, I think that the word "intention" is so vague these days.
Twyla Tharp：嗯，我认为“意图”这个词现在很模糊。
But why are you doing this?
但你为什么要这样做？
What is your purpose in doing it?
你这样做的目的是什么？
What's your interest?
你的兴趣是什么？
Why do you want to do this?
你为什么要这样做？
What's in it for you?
这对你有什么好处？
Are you to learn?
你要学吗？
Is this a contract signed?
这是签订的合同吗？
Do you have an obligation to be successful to a producer who's investing a lot of money, and that's a given going in?
对于一个投入大量资金的制片人来说，你是否有义务取得成功，这是理所当然的？
Twyla Tharp: That's going to determine a range of possibilities for you, right?
Twyla Tharp：这将为您确定一系列可能性，对吧？
And unfortunately, the bottom line controls a lot of this issue.
不幸的是，底线控制了这个问题的大部分。
At least for me, it's a given if I've signed a contract to deliver a specific result, that's what I'm doing.
至少对我来说，如果我签署了一份合同来交付特定的结果，那就是理所当然的，这就是我正在做的事情。
It doesn't matter what I want.
我想要什么并不重要。
It's do I get that accomplished or not?
我到底能不能完成这个任务？
Twyla Tharp: It's in a way a kind of sacred bond, okay?
Twyla Tharp：在某种程度上这是一种神圣的纽带，好吗？
You honor your contracts.
你遵守你的合同。
On the other hand, if I am not in a singular position of earning any money, I can do anything I want, or anything, not that I want, but anything that I think is important, okay?
另一方面，如果我不处于赚钱的单一位置，我可以做任何我想做的事情，或者任何不是我想做的事情，但任何我认为重要的事情，好吗？
So how do you determine the parameters of important because that helps with intention.
那么如何确定重要的参数，因为这有助于意图。
Twyla Tharp: In the olden days, which dates as in before 1979, anything before '79 is the olden days.
Twyla Tharp：在过去，即 1979 年之前，79 年之前的任何事情都是过去。
In the olden days, that would include the '60s.
在过去，这包括 60 年代。
We did things because we wanted to change the direction the Earth rotated.
我们做事是因为我们想改变地球旋转的方向。
End of story.
故事结束。
Good luck.
祝你好运。
Andrew Huberman: Tell me more about that.
安德鲁·休伯曼：请告诉我更多相关信息。
Twyla Tharp: It simply meant that whoever the practitioner was was completely exposed to everything.
Twyla Tharp：这只是意味着无论练习者是谁，都完全暴露于一切。
Say you're a painter.
假设你是一名画家。
You're completely exposed to everything everybody is doing, and you see another way of going about it, and you do that.
你完全接触到每个人所做的一切，你看到了另一种处理方式，然后你就这么做了。
Everybody is plugged into that same mechanism, and if they swerve into your area, you shift again.
每个人都被插入到相同的机制中，如果他们突然进入你的区域，你就会再次转移。
You have to continuously be altering perception as an artist.
作为一名艺术家，你必须不断改变观念。
That notion does not seem so relevant these days, perhaps.
如今，这个概念似乎不再那么重要了。
Andrew Huberman: Why do you think that is?
安德鲁·休伯曼：你认为这是为什么？
Twyla Tharp: Because you could live cheaper.
Twyla Tharp：因为你可以住得更便宜。
In the '60s, you could live very cheap.
在 60 年代，你的生活可以非常便宜。
Now you cannot live very cheaply as an artistic force.
现在，作为一种艺术力量，你的生活不能非常廉价。
You're paying bills, lots of bills.
你正在支付账单，很多账单。
Andrew Huberman: I've long thought that the best work that people do is at the beginning, when they don't have any feedback yet, and they're just being themselves.
Andrew Huberman：我一直认为人们所做的最好的工作是在一开始，当他们还没有任何反馈时，他们只是做自己。
It's hard to stay connected to that early energy of just being oneself without the notion of contracts and feedback, and the perception of feedback.
如果没有契约和反馈的概念以及对反馈的感知，就很难与早期做自己的能量保持联系。
Do you think it's important?
你认为这重要吗？
Twyla Tharp: I've never been of the persuasion that my understanding was the greatest when I knew nothing as when I knew more.
Twyla Tharp：我从来不认为，当我一无所知时，我的理解力最强，而当我知道更多时，我的理解力最强。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Twyla Tharp: I've always been of the persuasion that the more you know, the bigger your challenge.
Twyla Tharp：我一直坚信，你知道的越多，你面临的挑战就越大。
If one looks at the lives of artists, for example, Beethoven.
如果我们看看艺术家的生活，例如贝多芬。
Take Beethoven early work, take Beethoven late work, very different, different challenges.
拿贝多芬早期的作品来说，拿贝多芬后期的作品来说，非常不同，挑战也不同。
Twyla Tharp: There is argument to be made, depending on your particular set of the coherency of the classicism of the earlier quartets as opposed to the late quartets, and the total disillusion that he was able to accomplish at the end of his career, totally taking the sound world apart that he could only actually do because he was deaf.
Twyla Tharp：根据你对早期四重奏与晚期四重奏的古典主义一致性的特定设定，以及他在职业生涯结束时能够实现的彻底幻灭，完全打破声音世界，而他实际上只能因为他是聋子才能做到这一点，这是有争议的。
Twyla Tharp: He had developed, during the course, unfortunately, of a very long time, decades, the awareness that he was losing his hearing, and by the end, he genuinely basically was completely deaf, which forced him into his own world, and there he looked at himself across the ages.
特怀拉·撒普：不幸的是，在这个过程中，他已经意识到自己正在失去听力，很长一段时间，几十年，到了最后，他真的基本上完全聋了，这迫使他进入自己的世界，在那里他跨越了各个时代审视自己。
Twyla Tharp: So in a piece, I think of the "Diabelli," which is the last thing he wrote for keyboard after the sonatas, and he actually had started the "Diabelli" 15, maybe even...
Twyla Tharp：所以在一首曲子中，我想到了“Diabelli”，这是他在奏鸣曲之后为键盘写的最后一首曲子，他实际上已经开始了“Diabelli”15，甚至可能......
I'm forgetting my details here, but 15 years earlier than when he came back to complete it.
我在这里忘记了我的详细信息，但比他回来完成它的时间早了 15 年。
Twyla Tharp: And he got bored with it initially because, to a younger composer, it wasn't challenging enough.
Twyla Tharp：他最初对此感到厌倦，因为对于年轻的作曲家来说，这不够具有挑战性。
When he came back to it later, he had a humility about him that said, "That theme which I used to poo-poo because it's like you're kidding," ya da, da, di, ba, ba, da, da, da, da.
当他后来回过头来时，他谦虚地说：“我过去常常大便的那个主题，因为它就像你在开玩笑一样，”呀达，达，迪，巴，巴，达，达，达，达。
Up.
向上。
Ya, da, da, di, da, ba, ya, da, da, da.
呀，达，达，迪，达，巴，呀，达，达，达。
Up.
向上。
Ya, da, da, di.
呀，达，达，迪。
Cut in half.
切成两半。
Ya, da, da, di.
呀，达，达，迪。
Drop it back down.
把它放回去。
Ya, da, da, di, da.
呀，哒，哒，哒，哒。
Twyla Tharp: And he's going, "What?" And later he comes back, and he says, "Right.
Twyla Tharp：他会问，“什么？”后来他回来了，他说：“好吧。
Not stupid, simple.
不傻，很简单。
I could never have written anything that simple or that useful." And he finished it, and it's arguably the greatest set of keyboard variations in the entire repertoire.
我永远不可能写出如此简单或如此有用的东西。”他完成了它，这可以说是整个曲目中最伟大的键盘变奏集。
Twyla Tharp: Which do you want?
特怀拉·萨普：你想要哪个？
The earlier Beethoven?
早期的贝多芬？
The Beethoven who has passed way through many different works, a mass, an opera, many quartets, and returns to it with this new information to look at it again.
贝多芬经历了许多不同的作品，一部弥撒，一部歌剧，许多四重奏，并带着新的信息返回并再次审视它。
Andrew Huberman: Fascinating.
安德鲁·休伯曼：令人着迷。
There's something about the more you know, the bigger your challenge, but if I may, from what you just said, maybe also the bigger the opportunity.
你知道的越多，你面临的挑战就越大，但如果可以的话，从你刚才所说的来看，也许机会也越大。
Twyla Tharp: Totally.
特怀拉·萨普：完全可以。
Twyla Tharp: Totally.
特怀拉·萨普：完全可以。
But the more kind of distracting it is and the harder it is to focus.
但它越分散注意力，就越难集中注意力。
Part of that's physical, but part of it is also that there are many more options available with accomplishments, if you will, but you have to be selective about what you have available to you to work with.
部分是身体方面的，但部分也是因为如果你愿意的话，有更多的成就可以选择，但你必须对你可以使用的东西进行选择。
Twyla Tharp: In the earlier phase, you'll take what you can get, and now, if you take what you can get, you will be very wildly distracted by everything.
Twyla Tharp：在早期阶段，你会拿走你能得到的东西，而现在，如果你拿走你能得到的东西，你会被一切事情严重分散注意力。
Andrew Huberman: I'd like to take a quick break to acknowledge our sponsor, Our Place.
Andrew Huberman：我想稍微休息一下，以感谢我们的赞助商 Our Place。
Our Place makes my favorite pots, pans, and other cookware.
我们的地方生产我最喜欢的锅、平底锅和其他炊具。
Surprisingly, toxic compounds such as PFAS or forever chemicals are still found in 80% of non-stick pans, as well as utensils, appliances, and countless other kitchen products.
令人惊讶的是，80% 的不粘锅以及餐具、电器和无数其他厨房产品中仍然含有 PFAS 或永久化学物质等有毒化合物。
Andrew Huberman: As I've discussed before on this podcast, these PFAS or forever chemicals like Teflon, have been linked to major health issues such as hormone disruption, gut microbiome disruption, fertility issues, and many other health problems.
Andrew Huberman：正如我之前在这个播客中讨论过的那样，这些 PFAS 或永久性化学物质（如聚四氟乙烯）与荷尔蒙破坏、肠道微生物群破坏、生育问题和许多其他健康问题等重大健康问题有关。
So it's very important to avoid them.
因此，避免它们非常重要。
This is why I'm a huge fan of Our Place.
这就是为什么我是《我们的地方》的超级粉丝。
Our Place products are made with the highest quality materials and are all PFAS and toxin-free.
我们的 Place 产品采用最优质的材料制成，不含 PFAS 和毒素。
I particularly love their Titanium Always Pan Pro.
我特别喜欢他们的 Titanium Always Pan Pro。
It's the first non-stick pan made with zero chemicals and zero coating.
这是第一个采用零化学品和零涂层制成的不粘锅。
Andrew Huberman: Instead, it uses pure titanium.
Andrew Huberman：相反，它使用纯钛。
This means it has no harmful forever chemicals and does not degrade or lose its nonstick effect over time.
这意味着它不含永久有害的化学物质，并且不会随着时间的推移而降解或失去其不粘效果。
It's also beautiful to look at.
看起来也很漂亮。
I cook eggs in my Titanium Always Pan Pro almost every morning.
我几乎每天早上都会用 Titanium Always Pan Pro 煮鸡蛋。
The design allows for the eggs to cook perfectly without sticking to the pan.
该设计使鸡蛋能够完美烹饪而不会粘在锅上。
I also cook burgers and steaks in it, and it always puts a really nice sear on the meat.
我还用它来做汉堡和牛排，它总是能让肉有很好的烤焦效果。
But again, nothing sticks to it, so it's really easy to clean, and it's even dishwasher safe.
但同样，没有任何东西粘在上面，所以它非常容易清洁，甚至可以用洗碗机清洗。
I love it, and I use it constantly.
我喜欢它，并且经常使用它。
Andrew Huberman: Our Place now has a full line of Titanium Pro cookware that uses the first-of-its-kind titanium non-stick technology.
Andrew Huberman：我们的地方现在拥有全系列的 Titanium Pro 炊具，采用首创的钛不粘技术。
For a limited time, Our Place is offering an extra 10% off their current holiday sale on their titanium cookware.
在有限的时间内，Our Place 的钛炊具在当前假日销售中可享受额外 10% 的折扣。
Visit fromourplace.com/huberman and use the code SAVEHUBERMAN10 to claim the offer.
请访问 fromourplace.com/huberman 并使用代码 SAVEHUBERMAN10 领取优惠。
With a 100-day risk-free trial, free shipping, and free returns, you can try this fantastic cookware with zero risk.
通过 100 天无风险试用、免费送货和免费退货，您可以零风险地尝试这款出色的炊具。
Andrew Huberman: Today's episode is also brought to us by Eight Sleep.
安德鲁·休伯曼：今天的节目也是由“八睡”为我们带来的。
Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep-tracking capacity.
八睡眠公司生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。
One of the best ways to ensure you get a great night's sleep is to make sure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct, and that's because in order to fall asleep and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees.
确保您睡个好觉的最佳方法之一是确保睡眠环境的温度正确，这是因为为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，您的体温实际上必须下降约一到三度。
Andrew Huberman: And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees.
Andrew Huberman：为了醒来时感觉神清气爽、精力充沛，你的体温实际上必须升高约一到三度。
Eight Sleep automatically regulates the temperature of your bed throughout the night according to your unique needs.
八睡眠会根据您的独特需求自动调节整个晚上的床温。
I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for nearly five years now, and it has completely transformed and improved the quality of my sleep.
我已经睡在八睡眠床垫罩上近五年了，它彻底改变并改善了我的睡眠质量。
The latest Eight Sleep model is the Pod 5.
最新的八睡眠型号是 Pod 5。
This is what I'm now sleeping on, and I absolutely love it.
这就是我现在睡觉的地方，我非常喜欢它。
It has so many incredible features.
它有很多令人难以置信的功能。
Andrew Huberman: For instance, the Pod 5 has a feature called "Autopilot," which is an AI engine that learns your sleep patterns and then adjusts the temperature of your sleeping environment across different sleep stages.
Andrew Huberman：例如，Pod 5 有一个名为“Autopilot”的功能，这是一个人工智能引擎，可以学习您的睡眠模式，然后在不同睡眠阶段调整您的睡眠环境温度。
It'll even elevate your head if you're snoring, and it makes other shifts to optimize your sleep.
如果您打鼾，它甚至会抬高您的头部，并进行其他转换以优化您的睡眠。
If you would like to try Eight Sleep, go to eightsleep.com/huberman to get 450 dollars off the Pod 5 Ultra.
如果您想尝试八睡眠，请访问八睡眠.com/huberman，享受 Pod 5 Ultra 450 美元优惠。
This is part of Eight Sleep's extended holiday sale, which goes from now until December 31st, 2025.
这是Eight Sleep 延长假期促销的一部分，促销期从即日起至 2025 年 12 月 31 日。
Andrew Huberman: Eight Sleep ships to many countries worldwide, including Mexico and the UAE.
Andrew Huberman：八艘 Sleep 船运往世界各地的许多国家，包括墨西哥和阿联酋。
Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to 450 dollars now through December 31st, 2025.
同样，从现在到 2025 年 12 月 31 日，八睡眠.com/huberman 最多可节省 450 美元。
Andrew Huberman: Recently, I listened to a conversation between my good friend Rick Rubin, who we were talking about earlier.
Andrew Huberman：最近，我听到了我的好朋友 Rick Rubin 之间的对话，我们之前谈到过他。
He's a big fan of yours.
他是你的忠实粉丝。
You inspired his book, and he wanted me to tell you that.
你启发了他的书，他希望我告诉你这一点。
Twyla Tharp: Thank you.
特怀拉·撒普：谢谢。
Andrew Huberman: And he was speaking with Gwyneth Paltrow, who's an actress and has done incredible things in the health and wellness business, et cetera, and she said something very interesting.
安德鲁·休伯曼：他正在与格温妮丝·帕特洛交谈，格温妮丝·帕特洛是一名演员，在健康和保健行业等领域做出了令人难以置信的事情，她说了一些非常有趣的话。
Twyla Tharp: Uh-huh.
特怀拉·撒普：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: She said, "People generally like to keep you where they found you." And it's an interesting statement that I think taps into something that, again, that as a creator or as a consumer of creative content, feels very true, that we encounter somebody, like somebody goes to one of your dances, or we see a great movie with Gary Oldman in it or something.
安德鲁·休伯曼：她说，“人们通常喜欢把你留在他们发现你的地方。”这是一个有趣的说法，我认为它再次体现了作为创意内容的创作者或消费者，感觉非常真实，我们遇到某人，就像有人去参加你的一场舞会，或者我们看到一部有加里·奥德曼主演的精彩电影或其他什么。
Andrew Huberman: You see a Basquiat for the first time, and it either impacts you or it doesn't.
Andrew Huberman：当你第一次看到巴斯奎特的作品时，它要么对你产生影响，要么不会。
But if it does, there's this tendency to want to keep that person and the work they do in that place.
但如果确实如此，人们就会倾向于将那个人和他们所做的工作留在那个地方。
It's like we think we own the creator in some way, and the work, in this very naive and selfish way.
就好像我们认为我们以某种方式拥有创作者和作品，以这种非常天真的和自私的方式。
Do you think that creates a real problem for anyone that's trying to put things into the world?
你认为这会给那些试图将事物带入世界的人带来真正的问题吗？
Andrew Huberman: Because, as you stated, with time, the creator gains knowledge.
安德鲁·休伯曼：因为，正如您所说，随着时间的推移，创作者会获得知识。
You evolve your craft.
你发展你的手艺。
But your fan base, the people that love you, they love you for something that you're not really any longer.
但是你的粉丝群，那些爱你的人，他们爱你的原因是你已经不再是了。
You're evolving.
你正在进化。
Twyla Tharp: "The Somewhere Over the Rainbow syndrome," right?
特怀拉·萨普：“彩虹之上综合症”，对吧？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Twyla Tharp: Garland always was asked for one song, or Elvis, John.
Twyla Tharp：Garland 总是被要求唱一首歌，或者 Elvis、John。
Anyone is always asked for their hit because everyone wants to touch upon that which seems to somehow be their greatest accomplishment.
任何人总是被问及他们的成功，因为每个人都想触及似乎是他们最大成就的事情。
It's aggravating.
这很让人恼火。
I mean, obviously, it's called cubby-holing, and for the person doing the work, there are artists who work serially, right?
我的意思是，很明显，这被称为“小房间”，对于从事这项工作的人来说，有些艺术家是连续工作的，对吧？
Twyla Tharp: Who work in series and who make incremental changes, and they kind of have, in a way, a stab at the best of all possible worlds.
Twyla Tharp：他们以系列方式工作并进行渐进式改变，在某种程度上，他们尝试了所有可能世界中最好的一面。
But there are others who feel that, "Okay, you got that.
但也有其他人觉得，“好吧，你明白了。
I got to go over here." And that's because, in a way, they're right, because if you want to constantly be gain...
我得去这里一趟。”那是因为，在某种程度上，他们是对的，因为如果你想不断获得收益……
It's a game.
这是一场游戏。
You want to be gaining the attention, you do it by change.
你想要获得关注，你可以通过改变来做到这一点。
You don't do it by reinforcing.
你不是通过强化来做到这一点的。
Twyla Tharp: That just creates a comfort zone, and it can build a reputation.
Twyla Tharp：这只会创造一个舒适区，并且可以建立声誉。
It can build a career that gives you more and more of what you expect.
它可以让你的职业生涯越来越符合你的期望。
But for the person who's making the work, that can kind of be deadly.
但对于创作这项作品的人来说，这可能是致命的。
Andrew Huberman: Did you know Jean-Michel Basquiat?
安德鲁·休伯曼：你认识让-米歇尔·巴斯奎特吗？
Twyla Tharp: No.
特怀拉·撒普：不。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
Twyla Tharp: A different generation.
Twyla Tharp：不同的一代。
I knew the painters, the downtown painters in the '60s.
我认识那些画家，六十年代市中心的画家。
Andrew Huberman: Could you give me some examples of...
安德鲁·休伯曼：你能给我一些例子吗……
Twyla Tharp: Oh, you want to know the famous names on TV.
Twyla Tharp：哦，你想知道电视上的名人。
Andrew Huberman: No, I don't want to know the names, I just have a question about-
安德鲁·休伯曼：不，我不想知道名字，我只是有一个问题——
Twyla Tharp: Tony Smith, Frank Stella, Motherwell, Ad Reinhardt.
特怀拉·撒普：托尼·史密斯、弗兰克·斯特拉、马瑟韦尔、阿德·莱因哈特。
Andrew Huberman: Great.
安德鲁·休伯曼： 太好了。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
The reason I ask is that earlier you were saying that there's a time or there was a time, when in a given field, everyone knew each other and what they were doing.
我问这个问题的原因是，早些时候你说过，曾经有一段时间，在某个特定领域，每个人都互相了解，也了解他们在做什么。
And I like Basquiat.
我喜欢巴斯奎特。
I'm not obsessed with him or anything.
我不迷恋他或其他什么。
There's a wonderful scene in the movie, "Basquiat," with him and Benicio del Toro, or the actor playing him and Benicio del Toro, about this notion of fame.
电影《巴斯奎特》中有一个精彩的场景，他和本尼西奥·德尔·托罗，或者扮演他和本尼西奥·德尔·托罗的演员，讲述了这种名气的概念。
We'll put a link to it in the caption so people can see it.
我们将在标题中添加指向它的链接，以便人们可以看到它。
Andrew Huberman: And it's just a wonderful example of how people will love you, then they'll hate you for how you change, then they'll love you for how you were.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这是一个很好的例子，说明人们会如何爱你，然后他们会因为你的改变而恨你，然后他们会因为你的过去而爱你。
And it's hilarious, and again, for a consumer of content, it's perhaps even more interesting than somebody who's a creative.
这很搞笑，而且对于内容消费者来说，这可能比创意者更有趣。
Andrew Huberman: But the point being that nowadays I feel like there's so much stuff out there.
Andrew Huberman：但重点是，现在我觉得外面有很多东西。
Art and music, and dance, and Instagram puts it all on smorgasbord display for us.
艺术、音乐、舞蹈，Instagram 为我们呈现了这一切。
And it's kind of harder to know where one sits in a community of creators.
而且要知道一个人在创作者社区中的位置有点困难。
And so, to what extent do you think that being surrounded by other creators, like visual artists or other dancers, then versus now was or is useful?
那么，您认为当时与现在相比，被其他创作者（例如视觉艺术家或其他舞者）包围在多大程度上有用？
Twyla Tharp: Yeah.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
The early era, also age, is a factor here.
早期时代，还有年龄，是这里的一个因素。
I was very young.
我当时很年轻。
I was just out of college.
我刚大学毕业。
And I felt very much the student.
我对学生的感觉非常好。
It's a different deal now, and it's a different kind of responsibility, and the work's going to be different.
现在情况不同了，责任也不同了，工作也会不同。
In the early era, I went to see absolutely everything.
在早期，我什么都去看。
Now I go to see absolutely nothing.
现在我什么也没去看。
Twyla Tharp: And it is partially a matter of time, but more importantly, it's an awareness that you want to feel isolated in a way because you are, and that's the truth.
Twyla Tharp：这在一定程度上是一个时间问题，但更重要的是，这是一种意识，你想在某种程度上感到孤立，因为你确实如此，这就是事实。
So you need to operate from a truthful place.
所以你需要从真实的地方进行操作。
Twyla Tharp: And when you talk about this plethora of information that is out there.
Twyla Tharp：当你谈论现有的大量信息时。
I do try to inform myself to some degree about different areas of culture, but I do it through a media perspective because that's how the consumer is receiving it.
我确实尝试在某种程度上让自己了解不同的文化领域，但我是从媒体的角度来做的，因为这就是消费者接受信息的方式。
Consumer is not at the individual exhibition or at the individual performance.
消费者不是在观看个人展览或个人表演。
They're getting it through media.
他们是通过媒体得到的。
Twyla Tharp: So, in looking at it through media, I already have a double perspective on it.
Twyla Tharp：所以，在通过媒体看待它时，我已经对它有了双重看法。
I have the artist's perspective, but I have the journalist's, for lack of a better word, we'll call it podcasting journalism.
我有艺术家的观点，但我有记者的观点，因为没有更好的词，我们将其称为播客新闻。
Will we be forgiven?
我们会被原谅吗？
Andrew Huberman: Sure.
安德鲁·休伯曼：当然。
Twyla Tharp: Thank you.
特怀拉·撒普：谢谢。
Andrew Huberman: Podcasting's a weird thing we could talk about later, what it is and what it isn't, but yeah.
Andrew Huberman：播客是一件奇怪的事情，我们可以稍后讨论它是什么和不是什么，但是是的。
Twyla Tharp: Okay.
特怀拉·撒普：好的。
We'll wait till this is off to discuss that, right?
我们会等到这件事结束后再讨论这个问题，对吗？
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Sure.
安德鲁·休伯曼：当然。
Twyla Tharp: But the challenge for me becomes, okay, in all of this swirl of stuff, what do you believe?
Twyla Tharp：但是对我来说，挑战变成了，好吧，在所有这些事情的漩涡中，你相信什么？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Twyla Tharp: Forget who, you can't believe anyone, but what?
Twyla Tharp：忘了谁吧，你不能相信任何人，但是什么？
What can you believe?
你能相信什么？
What is really grounded in a way that's productive?
什么是真正以高效的方式为基础的？
I've just come off, if you'll forgive me for diverging here for a moment, two really hard years of working.
我刚刚下班，请原谅我在这里暂时岔开，这两年的工作非常辛苦。
Twyla Tharp: A 60th anniversary tour that was a very big culmination of a long, long working process, which put a lot on the line, and which was unfortunately very successful because success is much harder to follow than failure.
Twyla Tharp：60 周年纪念巡演是漫长工作过程的一个非常大的高潮，这需要付出很多努力，但不幸的是非常成功，因为成功比失败更难遵循。
So here you sit, "Okay, babe, you've done it all.
所以你坐在这里，“好吧，宝贝，你已经完成了这一切。
Now what?" And so, where do you go?
现在怎么办？”那么，你要去哪里？
Twyla Tharp: And you don't go around asking other people for the answer to your question.
Twyla Tharp：而且你不会四处询问其他人来回答你的问题。
One has to find a way of rerouting without abandoning who you are and what you believe in order to just make change, really?
为了做出改变，人们必须找到一种重新定位的方法，而不放弃你是谁和你的信仰，真的吗？
How does that work?
这是如何运作的？
So it's an extremely attenuated place to be.
所以这是一个极其脆弱的地方。
Twyla Tharp: Not many people make it this far.
Twyla Tharp：没有多少人能走到这一步。
Not many people are looking at their 61st year of work, right?
没有多少人会回顾自己 61 年的工作，对吗？
So, that's like, okay, so show us.
所以，那就是，好吧，那就给我们看看吧。
Well, maybe I don't want to.
好吧，也许我不想。
Maybe I will.
也许我会的。
Who knows?
谁知道？
Andrew Huberman: You said that coming off of a success is much more challenging than coming off of a failure.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你说过，成功比失败更具挑战性。
I think that will surprise a number of people because people, myself included, probably feel like when you do well, you get the confidence that you can do well again.
我认为这会让很多人感到惊讶，因为人们，包括我自己，可能会觉得当你表现出色时，你就会有信心再次表现出色。
There's that also.
还有那个。
Whereas when you fail, you're like, "Ugh."
而当你失败时，你会说“呃”。
Twyla Tharp: You can do that again too.
Twyla Tharp：你也可以再这样做一次。
Andrew Huberman: Do you tell your dancers that?
安德鲁·休伯曼：你会告诉你的舞者吗？
Twyla Tharp: No, because my dancers don't fail.
Twyla Tharp：不，因为我的舞者不会失败。
Andrew Huberman: Hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Twyla Tharp: That's why I work with dancers who want to work as hard as I do.
Twyla Tharp：这就是为什么我和那些想要像我一样努力工作的舞者一起工作。
Andrew Huberman: Let's talk more about that process.
Andrew Huberman：让我们更多地讨论这个过程。
Twyla Tharp: Yep.
特怀拉·萨普：是的。
Andrew Huberman: In your book you talked about failure being critical, failing a lot, a lot in private.
安德鲁·休伯曼：在你的书中，你谈到失败是至关重要的，私下里失败了很多很多。
Twyla Tharp: Yep.
特怀拉·萨普：是的。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
Andrew Huberman: That had a big impact on me.
Andrew Huberman：这对我影响很大。
Twyla Tharp: Uh-huh.
特怀拉·撒普：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: I think that this notion of making lots and lots of failures and mistakes privately...
安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为这种私下犯下很多很多失败和错误的想法......
Twyla Tharp: Yeah.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
When you're working, you don't know if it's a failure or not.
当你工作时，你不知道它是否失败。
You only know if it's useful.
只有你知道它是否有用。
You know if it's exciting.
你知道这是否令人兴奋。
You know if it generates a next question.
你知道它是否会产生下一个问题。
That's useful.
这很有用。
You don't know if it's good or bad.
你不知道这是好是坏。
Andrew Huberman: Let's go back to your dancers and how you put them through the paces, so to speak.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：让我们回到你的舞者，以及你如何让他们通过步伐，可以这么说。
Because I think it also frames up this notion of rituals very nicely.
因为我认为它也很好地体现了仪式的概念。
For the uninformed, like myself, give us an example of your day and a day in the studio, the top contour of that.
对于像我这样不知情的人，请给我们举一个你的一天和在工作室的一天的例子，即顶部轮廓。
Twyla Tharp: It depends on where you are in this wonderful word called 'process.' If you are at the beginning, it's all more fluid.
Twyla Tharp：这取决于你在“过程”这个美妙的词中所处的位置。如果你刚开始，一切都会更加流畅。
And while the one key ingredient I have always found to doing work is you got to be able to do a schedule.
虽然我一直发现工作的一个关键要素是你必须能够制定时间表。
You've got to be able to tell people what time they're coming and what shoes to bring.
你必须能够告诉人们他们什么时候来以及要带什么鞋子。
Okay?
好的？
That's already actually made a lot of choices for you.
这实际上已经为你做了很多选择。
Twyla Tharp: And that, I think, is a good thing.
Twyla Tharp：我认为这是一件好事。
I mean, there's no point in just saying, "Oh, we'll work whenever you get here," and "Bring whatever." 'Whatever' is not my favorite word.
我的意思是，仅仅说“哦，只要你到这里我们就会工作”和“带什么来”是没有意义的。 “无论如何”不是我最喜欢的词。
So choices get made, and a schedule gets done.
这样就做出了选择，并制定了时间表。
Twyla Tharp: And ordinarily, again, it depends on what the project is, but let's just give as much range here as possible, if it's me making a new piece, I will set a schedule.
Twyla Tharp：通常，这又取决于项目是什么，但我们在这里给出尽可能多的范围，如果是我制作一个新作品，我会制定一个时间表。
Dancers come in.
舞者进来。
They will have done class themselves.
他们自己会完成课程。
They will come warm, okay?
他们会变得温暖，好吗？
That is not a part of my day.
那不是我一天的一部分。
Twyla Tharp: I have my own work to do in preparing for that rehearsal, but in also maintaining my own physical instrument to the degree that I can.
Twyla Tharp：我有自己的工作要做，为排练做准备，但也要尽可能地维护我自己的物理乐器。
Because the more I can bring into the studio, the more I can give them, and the more I can expect them to bring in.
因为我能给工作室带来的东西越多，我能给他们的也就越多，我也就越能期待他们带来更多的东西。
Twyla Tharp: So, I have a tandem path going on here with the dancers, and we meet up, we join, and I usually will come with a certain preset sense of where we're going with this thing, and then see how it actually works in real time, in real space, which is a very useful and tough mistress and eliminates a lot of fantasy very quickly.
Twyla Tharp：所以，我和舞者们有一条串联的道路，我们见面，加入，我通常会对我们要处理这件事有某种预设的感觉，然后看看它是如何在实时、真实的空间中实际工作的，这是一个非常有用和强硬的情妇，很快就消除了很多幻想。
Andrew Huberman: Who decides who gets to work with you?
Andrew Huberman：谁决定谁可以和你一起工作？
Twyla Tharp: I do.
特怀拉·撒普：我愿意。
Well, that's actually not true.
嗯，事实并非如此。
In a way, they do.
在某种程度上，他们确实如此。
The dancers that I work with, I obviously audition, but I also screen from the perspective of, who wants to work with me?
与我合作的舞者，显然是我试镜的，但我也从谁想和我合作的角度进行筛选？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Twyla Tharp: Who's going to come and say, "Yeah, I'll go through that wall.
Twyla Tharp：谁会过来说：“是的，我会穿过那堵墙。
Is that what we're doing?
这就是我们正在做的事情吗？
I'll go through the wall." And you want to know that you have that in the room.
我会翻墙。”你想知道你的房间里有这个。
You're not going to ask them to go through the wall all the time, but if it seemed like it was an approach that was going to be useful, you've got to know that that commitment is really solid.
你不会一直要求他们穿墙，但如果这看起来是一种有用的方法，你就必须知道这种承诺是非常坚实的。
And that's best indicated by their desire.
他们的愿望最能说明这一点。
Not your finding them totally appropriate, but their desire.
不是你觉得他们完全合适，而是他们的愿望。
Andrew Huberman: Are most dancers living with the understanding that it's going to be very, very long hours and probably very little pay for a while?
安德鲁·休伯曼：大多数舞者是否都明白，这将是非常非常长的工作时间，而且可能暂时报酬很少？
Twyla Tharp: For sure very little pay, and forever.
Twyla Tharp：当然，报酬很少，而且永远。
Andrew Huberman: Wild world.
安德鲁·休伯曼：狂野的世界。
Twyla Tharp: Crazy.
特怀拉·萨普：疯了。
Crazy, and to my way of thinking, not acceptable.
疯狂，以我的思维方式，无法接受。
Because I'm all in favor of the folks who do the work and the training to accomplish physically, and I don't make a clear distinction between either folks who are in business or athletes.
因为我完全支持那些通过工作和训练来实现身体素质的人，而且我并没有明确区分商人和运动员。
To me, it is all the same enterprise.
对我来说，这都是同一个企业。
But dancers have nowhere near the possibility of earning a living that a great athlete has.
但舞者远不可能像伟大的运动员那样谋生。
Not even sort of, kind of in the ballpark.
甚至都不是，只是在球场上。
Not even in the parking lot.
即使在停车场也不行。
Not even on the highway to the ballgame.
甚至在去球赛的高速公路上也不行。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Twyla Tharp: How did this happen, and why does it continue?
Twyla Tharp：这是怎么发生的，为什么会持续下去？
Andrew Huberman: It raises interesting questions at how we support the arts or don't support the arts, I think.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为，这提出了我们如何支持艺术或不支持艺术的有趣问题。
Twyla Tharp: Are we taking over your show for the next two and a half years?
Twyla Tharp：接下来两年半我们会接管你的节目吗？
Andrew Huberman: If we must.
安德鲁·休伯曼：如果必须的话。
Twyla Tharp: Oh, okay.
特怀拉·撒普：哦，好吧。
Andrew Huberman: This conversation, no doubt, will draw some additional attention to dance, but the larger issue of people being able to make it in the arts, not just as a luxury, but as a critical piece of culture and life.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：毫无疑问，这次谈话将引起人们对舞蹈的更多关注，但更大的问题是人们能够在艺术领域做出贡献，不仅仅是作为一种奢侈品，而是作为文化和生活的重要组成部分。
I mean, I love beautiful things.
我的意思是，我喜欢美丽的事物。
I love beautiful dogs.
我喜欢漂亮的狗。
Most all dogs are beautiful, even the bulldogs.
大多数狗都很漂亮，即使是斗牛犬。
But I love beautiful things, and it enriches life in more ways than just feeling delighted.
但我喜欢美丽的事物，它以更多的方式丰富生活，而不仅仅是感到高兴。
Andrew Huberman: I think there's immense carryover from the arts to other areas of culture, and so we could make an economic argument about that.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为艺术对其他文化领域有巨大的影响，因此我们可以对此进行经济论证。
But it's part of the reason you're here.
但这是你来这里的部分原因。
But to just sort of return to this business of ritual.
但只是想回到这个仪式上来。
Yeah.
是的。
Twyla Tharp: Can I interrupt you before you go there?
Twyla Tharp： 在你去那里之前我可以打断你吗？
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Twyla Tharp: Because I'd like to take up two things.
Twyla Tharp：因为我想处理两件事。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Twyla Tharp: One is the notion of the reality being that when we do a successful performance, I measure it by, did that audience leave in a better frame of mind than it came in with?
Twyla Tharp：现实的一个概念是，当我们进行一场成功的表演时，我衡量它的标准是，观众离开时的心态是否比进来时更好？
In other words, we provide a service.
换句话说，我们提供服务。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Twyla Tharp: And we provide a service that gives them a sense of optimism.
Twyla Tharp：我们提供的服务可以让他们感到乐观。
Yeah, verily, I might even go to joy, to the belief that they too occupy this body that does these phenomenal things, and thank you, Lord.
是的，确实，我什至可能会感到高兴，相信他们也占据了这个身体，做着这些非凡的事情，谢谢你，主。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Twyla Tharp: Okay?
特怀拉·萨普：好吗？
That's a service.
这就是一项服务。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Twyla Tharp: I think dancers should be paid more for that service, and that it needs to be acknowledged.
Twyla Tharp：我认为舞者应该为这项服务获得更多报酬，并且需要得到认可。
The other point that I want to bring up is...
我想提出的另一点是......
You've used it twice now.
您现在已经使用过两次了。
I didn't stop you the first word.
我第一句话就没有阻止你。
Beauty.
美丽。
What is this?
这是什么？
Andrew Huberman: It could be something I see or hear that it stirs up some set of emotions in me that carries forward.
安德鲁·休伯曼：可能是我看到或听到的东西激发了我内心的某些情感并继续发展。
And what you just said a moment ago about the audience leaves in a different state, I mean, the word that came to mind was it's really great therapy.
你刚才所说的关于观众离开时处于不同状态的内容，我的意思是，我想到的词是这真的是很棒的治疗。
Andrew Huberman: But in some sense, it's better than that because...
安德鲁·休伯曼：但从某种意义上说，它比那更好，因为......
I was also thinking that perhaps in the top 10 of all my favorite memories are several live performances in which I was the observer.
我也在想，在我最喜欢的记忆中，排名前十的也许是几场我作为旁观者的现场表演。
It's like those things really stick with us, and I think they change us in meaningful ways, especially when we're in the audience with other people, not just watching on a screen.
就好像这些事情真的让我们难以忘怀，我认为它们以有意义的方式改变了我们，尤其是当我们与其他人一起坐在观众席上，而不仅仅是在屏幕上观看时。
They can be transformative, for sure.
当然，它们可以带来变革。
Twyla Tharp: And in a live audience becomes, of course, a whole other thing about cost and expenditures, but that it confirms that not only do you feel a new righteousness for yourself by a performance, but that you sense others do as well, and that creates a community bonding.
Twyla Tharp：当然，在现场观众中，成本和支出完全是另一回事，但它证实了你不仅通过表演为自己感受到了新的正义感，而且你感觉到其他人也这样做了，这创造了社区联系。
And, okay, football games, everybody is very rowdy about it.
而且，好吧，足球比赛，每个人都对此非常吵闹。
Most performances, people are not, but that doesn't mean that it still doesn't take that hold of people who are experiencing the same thing in real time.
大多数表演，人们都不是，但这并不意味着它仍然不能吸引那些实时体验同样事情的人。
We tend to dismiss that which is familiar.
我们倾向于忽视熟悉的事物。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Twyla Tharp: And that sense is actually not all that familiar, but it feels very intimate, and it is.
Twyla Tharp：这种感觉实际上并不那么熟悉，但感觉非常亲密，确实如此。
But it actually is quite rare.
但实际上这种情况相当罕见。
And the rarer a piece of art, and I will call a performance a piece of art, is, the more value it has, and the more that is compensated for culturally and economically.
一件艺术品，我将把一场表演称为一件艺术品，越稀有，它的价值就越高，在文化和经济上得到的补偿也就越多。
There should be a price point on beauty, let's put it that way.
美丽应该有一个价格点，这么说吧。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Well, there is for everything else.
Andrew Huberman：嗯，其他一切都有。
Twyla Tharp: Well, I know.
特怀拉·撒普：嗯，我知道。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
There is a price point for beauty in terms of...
美丽是有一个价格点的……
People could say, "Well, the sunrise is free," and the sunrise is beautiful, but seeing it in certain locations costs a lot more money than seeing it in other locations.
人们可能会说，“好吧，日出是免费的”，日出很美，但在某些地方看日出比在其他地方看日出要贵得多。
That's for sure.
这是肯定的。
Twyla Tharp: Right.
特怀拉·撒普：对。
And that brings up another thing because in a way, it's a kind of horrible thinking to go, "Yeah, it's a privilege.
这又带来了另一件事，因为在某种程度上，这是一种可怕的想法，“是的，这是一种特权。
You know what?
你知道吗？
You can't pay me.
你不能付钱给我。
You can't buy me.
你买不到我。
I don't have a price."
我没有价格。”
Twyla Tharp: And that, I'm sure, is one of the things in great dancers who are certainly not paid, as I've said before, and I'll say at least 300,000 times more, commensurate with a great athlete, that is probably one...
Twyla Tharp：我确信，这是伟大舞者的特点之一，他们肯定没有报酬，正如我之前说过的，我会说至少多出 300,000 倍，与一位伟大的运动员相称，这可能是一个......
I've never brought it up directly with a great dancer.
我从来没有直接向一位伟大的舞者提起过这个问题。
How much is it your own sense of independence and liberty that makes you the artist that you are?
你自己的独立和自由感在多大程度上使你成为了这样的艺术家？
Andrew Huberman: I think the name that most people probably associate with dance is probably Baryshnikov.
Andrew Huberman：我认为大多数人可能与舞蹈联系在一起的名字可能是巴里什尼科夫（Baryshnikov）。
If they don't know much about dance, they know that name, or it's familiar to them.
如果他们不太了解舞蹈，他们就会知道这个名字，或者他们很熟悉。
What was it about Mikhail Baryshnikov that sort of had him break through the common consciousness that way?
米哈伊尔·巴里什尼科夫到底是怎样突破了大众意识的呢？
Twyla Tharp: First of all, Misha more these days, actually, is remembered by younger generations from his later cultural input, i.e., "Sex and the City," than he is as a classical ballet artist, all right?
Twyla Tharp：首先，事实上，现在年轻一代更多地记住米沙是因为他后来的文化输入，即《欲望都市》，而不是他作为一名古典芭蕾舞艺术家，好吗？
Let's just start there.
让我们从这里开始吧。
Andrew Huberman: Because he showed up in "Sex and the City" as a character.
安德鲁·休伯曼：因为他作为一个角色出现在《欲望都市》中。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
Twyla Tharp: Yes.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Show business is a funny thing.
安德鲁·休伯曼：演艺界是一件有趣的事情。
Twyla Tharp: And that's how he is often recognized by younger audiences, younger folk.
Twyla Tharp：这就是他经常被年轻观众、年轻人认可的方式。
What was he?
他是什么？
In the beginning, he was...
一开始，他是...
Actually, there was a cellist, then there was Nureyev, and then Misha.
事实上，有一位大提琴家，然后是努里耶夫，然后是米沙。
Politically, he came across a line.
在政治上，他遇到了一条底线。
It was Russia, America.
那是俄罗斯、美国。
He chose America.
他选择了美国。
He's our hero.
他是我们的英雄。
Plus which, he was gorgeous.
另外，他很漂亮。
Twyla Tharp: He's unquestionably, in my opinion, in that era, the possessor of a technique that was a culmination of the 20th century and that will never be matched.
Twyla Tharp：在我看来，在那个时代，他无疑是 20 世纪巅峰技术的拥有者，而且永远无法匹敌。
And to see him work at the barre or to see him in the absolute interior realm of what the classical ballet was, was an unbelievable privilege.
看到他在酒吧工作或看到他在古典芭蕾的绝对内部领域，是一种令人难以置信的荣幸。
Twyla Tharp: But not many people saw that.
Twyla Tharp：但没有多少人看到这一点。
Not many people saw him at the barre, which is where you build your chops, okay?
没有多少人在把杆上看到他，那是你锻炼自己的地方，好吗？
He also was capable of taking those chops and expanding on them, breaking through their boundaries, trying it this way, do it that way, but utilizing the power that he had from that simple classical base to take it outward.
他也有能力抓住这些印记并对其进行扩展，突破它们的界限，尝试这样，那样做，但利用他从简单的古典基础中获得的力量将其向外扩展。
Lots of inventiveness in that regard.
在这方面有很多创造性。
And the guy was gorgeous.
那家伙很漂亮。
What can I tell you?
我能告诉你什么？
Andrew Huberman: His looks made a difference.
安德鲁·休伯曼：他的外表很重要。
Twyla Tharp: And what does that mean?
特怀拉·萨普：这是什么意思？
But what does that mean?
但这意味着什么？
It means a wide-ranging interest that you feel includes you, as you the spectator.
这意味着你感到一种广泛的兴趣，包括你作为旁观者。
You feel he's including you in his wideness of vision.
你会感觉到他将你纳入他的视野之中。
Where does that come from?
这是从哪里来的？
From the intellect, from his musicality, from his training, from his personality, from his cultural breeding, Latvian.
来自他的智力，来自他的音乐才能，来自他的训练，来自他的个性，来自他的拉脱维亚文化教养。
Twyla Tharp: And it is a singular commodification, one of my favorite words that drives people up the walls when I use that word in relation to the arts of performing.
Twyla Tharp：这是一种独特的商品化，是我最喜欢的词之一，当我在表演艺术中使用这个词时，它会让人们感到厌烦。
But he was very, very, very astute in many different areas, starting from an athletic ability through to a poetic sensibility.
但他在许多不同的领域都非常、非常、非常敏锐，从运动能力到诗意的情感。
Andrew Huberman: It's interesting you said that because he was attractive, that people felt that they were a part of it in a way that was not typical.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：有趣的是，你说因为他很有吸引力，所以人们觉得他们以一种不典型的方式成为其中的一部分。
Twyla Tharp: We all want to be godly.
Twyla Tharp：我们都想成为虔诚的人。
We all want to be a part of the sublime.
我们都想成为崇高的一部分。
Few can give us that.
很少有人能做到这一点。
Andrew Huberman: So when they say artists, I include dancers, I'm just broadly speaking, artists are like portals.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：所以当他们说艺术家时，我包括舞者，我只是广义地说，艺术家就像门户。
Is that what you mean?
你是这个意思吗？
Twyla Tharp: I would accept that.
Twyla Tharp：我会接受这一点。
Andrew Huberman: Years ago, I went to a Philip Glass concert at UC Berkeley.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：几年前，我去加州大学伯克利分校听了菲利普·格拉斯的音乐会。
I'll be honest, I didn't understand it.
老实说，我不明白。
I left there in a different state, mostly of confusion that people were willing to pay for that.
我以一种不同的状态离开了那里，主要是因为人们愿意为此付费而感到困惑。
I'm sorry if I'm insulting any Philip Glass fans, but this is my podcast.
如果我侮辱了任何菲利普·格拉斯的粉丝，我很抱歉，但这是我的播客。
I'm going to be very direct.
我会非常直接。
Twyla Tharp: Okay.
特怀拉·撒普：好的。
Andrew Huberman: I was told I maybe hadn't seen the right Philip Glass concert.
安德鲁·休伯曼：有人告诉我我可能没有看过正确的菲利普·格拉斯音乐会。
I was very confused.
我很困惑。
Twyla Tharp: Why?
特怀拉·萨普：为什么？
Andrew Huberman: I'm not a musician.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我不是音乐家。
But when I like something, I know I like it, and I tend to really like it.
但当我喜欢某样东西时，我知道我喜欢它，而且我往往真的很喜欢它。
But it's rare for me to encounter something that's like...
但我很少遇到这样的事情......
It felt extremely experimental at every part of it.
它的每个部分都给人一种极具实验性的感觉。
And I couldn't tell whether or not people were telling themselves that they liked it because it was him, or whether they really liked it.
我无法判断人们是否告诉自己他们喜欢它是因为这是他，或者他们是否真的喜欢它。
Twyla Tharp: What year is this that you went to this concert?
Twyla Tharp：您参加这场音乐会是哪一年？
Andrew Huberman: Gosh, this must've been 2008, 2007, 2008.
Andrew Huberman：天哪，这一定是 2008 年、2007 年、2008 年了。
Twyla Tharp: Oh.
特怀拉·撒普：哦。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
Twyla Tharp: Okay.
特怀拉·撒普：好的。
Twyla Tharp: That's very late.
Twyla Tharp： 已经很晚了。
Okay?
好的？
Twyla Tharp: So Phil obviously has been working since the '60s.
Twyla Tharp：菲尔显然从 60 年代就开始工作了。
And I've done one major collaboration with Phil and one recent collaboration.
我与 Phil 进行了一项重大合作，最近又进行了一项合作。
And in the beginning, the audience for minimalism, right, Reich, Riley, Glass came gradually.
而一开始，极简主义、右派、赖希、莱利、格拉斯的受众逐渐到来。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Twyla Tharp: And so when the initial piece, called "In the Upper Room," was done, it had a power and a force that involved also discovery.
Twyla Tharp：所以当第一件名为“在楼上的房间”完成时，它有一种力量和力量，也涉及发现。
Now, the later piece, which is called "Slacktide," Phil's a known commodity, and was addressed slightly differently, rather than, I mean, Phil, "ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba, yep, ba ba ba ba ba, bee, ba ba, ba ba ba."
现在，后来的作品被称为“Slacktide”，菲尔是一种众所周知的商品，并且其称呼略有不同，而不是，我的意思是，菲尔，“ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba，是的，ba ba ba ba ba，bee，ba ba，ba ba ba。”
Twyla Tharp: It's percussive.
Twyla Tharp：它是打击乐的。
The lyric element has been reduced, okay?
歌词成分减少了好吗？
And you're a sensitive soul.
而且你是一个敏感的灵魂。
You think of the word beauty, and that does not mean total elimination.
你想到“美丽”这个词，这并不意味着完全消除。
Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
繁荣，繁荣，繁荣，繁荣，繁荣，繁荣。
It means inclusion.
这意味着包容。
Twyla Tharp: And so the later Glass work was done in conjunction with a Chicago percussion group called Third Coast, who Phil has worked with a lot and who he trusts to do iterations, if you will, on the work.
Twyla Tharp：所以后来的 Glass 作品是与一个名为 Third Coast 的芝加哥打击乐队合作完成的，Phil 曾与该乐队合作过很多次，并且他相信他们会在作品中进行迭代（如果你愿意的话）。
And we iterated with a flute.
我们用长笛迭代。
Flutes don't do this.
长笛不会这样做。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Twyla Tharp: Flutes do this.
Twyla Tharp：长笛可以做到这一点。
So, we put a stream on top of that.
因此，我们在其之上添加了一个流。
That's in the music.
那是音乐里的。
I mean, iterations are a study in and of themselves, right?
我的意思是，迭代本身就是一项研究，对吗？
What makes something different from and yet still the same as?
是什么让某些东西不同于但仍然相同？
Good luck with that one.
祝你好运。
But that was the different range.
但那是不同的范围。
Twyla Tharp: I dare say if you go and look at, because Third Coast has produced a recording of this work, you listen to "Slacktide" and then tell me your response to Glass.
Twyla Tharp：我敢说如果你去看一下，因为Third Coast已经制作了这个作品的录音，你听一下“Slacktide”，然后告诉我你对Glass的反应。
But basically, minimalism took the lyric element and reduced it to just the temporal passage and time.
但基本上，极简主义采用了抒情元素，并将其简化为时间的流逝和时间。
Andrew Huberman: What's interesting, because of all the concerts I've seen, this one still sticks with me as a stimulus to learn more.
安德鲁·休伯曼：有趣的是，由于我看过所有音乐会，这场音乐会仍然困扰着我，作为了解更多的刺激。
Because one thing that I'm totally fascinated by and perplexed by is that with the exception of comedy, the more one learns about something, the artist, what went into the art, the dance, what went into it, typically, the more one likes that piece or that genre.
因为我完全着迷和困惑的一件事是，除了喜剧之外，一个人对某件事了解得越多，艺术家，艺术的内容，舞蹈，其中的内容，通常，人们就越喜欢那件作品或那种流派。
The more I learn about something, then I can listen to it with a different ear.
我对某件事了解得越多，我就能用不同的耳朵去听。
Andrew Huberman: I can watch it with a different eye.
Andrew Huberman：我可以用不同的眼光来看待它。
Comedy's the exception.
喜剧是个例外。
If it's not funny, learning about the origins of the joke don't make it any funnier.
如果它不好笑，了解这个笑话的起源并不会让它变得更有趣。
Learning about the comedian doesn't make it funnier.
了解这位喜剧演员并不会让事情变得更有趣。
It sort of just falls further and further.
它就像是跌得越来越远。
Twyla Tharp: See, I think that's true of your other art forms, too.
Twyla Tharp：看，我认为您的其他艺术形式也是如此。
I think you're confusing, forgive me, knowledge with instinct.
我认为你很困惑，请原谅我，知识与本能。
I mean, instinctively, you're responding to the humor, but instinctively, a piece of art can reach you, but you can be baffled by it.
我的意思是，本能地，你会对幽默做出反应，但本能地，一件艺术品可以触动你，但你可能会被它困惑。
But we don't like confusion, so we might call that something we should learn about before we can acknowledge liking it.
但我们不喜欢混乱，所以我们可能会称其为我们应该了解的东西，然后才能承认喜欢它。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Twyla Tharp: That's one of the things that is, I think, really difficult and something I think a lot about, which is not only protecting, but refining instinct.
Twyla Tharp：我认为这是一件非常困难的事情，也是我思考很多的事情，这不仅是保护本能，而且是精炼本能。
Andrew Huberman: Tell me more about that.
安德鲁·休伯曼：请告诉我更多相关信息。
Taste-
味道-
Twyla Tharp: I know.
特怀拉·撒普：我知道。
It's fascinating, isn't it?
这很迷人，不是吗？
I can't tell you about it because I could be writing a book.
我不能告诉你这件事，因为我可以写一本书。
Andrew Huberman: Oh.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哦。
Well, Rick Rubin, who I feel, even though you haven't met yet, you share a certain kinship with, talks about taste all the time, about this sense of taste, and trusting your own sense of taste as a consumer and as a creator is so key.
嗯，Rick Rubin，我觉得，虽然你们还没见过面，但你们有一定的亲缘关系，他一直在谈论品味，谈论这种味觉，相信自己作为消费者和创造者的味觉是非常关键的。
Twyla Tharp: Right.
特怀拉·撒普：对。
Twyla Tharp: Right.
特怀拉·撒普：对。
Andrew Huberman: That's why I brought up the Philip Glass thing, because I'm not writing off Glass on the basis of one concert.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这就是我提出菲利普·格拉斯事件的原因，因为我不会因为一场音乐会而否定格拉斯。
But I didn't walk out of there thinking "Maybe I'm an idiot.
但我走出那里时并没有想：“也许我是个白痴。
Maybe I didn't get it." And I didn't think, "They're all idiots." I just thought, "I guess I'm just different, because everyone else here seems to really love this, and this just doesn't hit me right." It's like, I don't like sardines.
也许是我没听懂。”我没想到，“他们都是白痴。”我只是想，“我想我只是与众不同，因为这里的其他人似乎都非常喜欢这个，但这对我来说并不合适。”就像，我不喜欢沙丁鱼。
Never liked sardines.
从来不喜欢沙丁鱼。
Andrew Huberman: You give me 100 sardines, I'm going to hate them 100 times more than the first sardine, I promise, because I've eaten 100 sardines.
Andrew Huberman：你给我 100 条沙丁鱼，我保证，我会比第一条沙丁鱼更讨厌它们 100 倍，因为我已经吃了 100 条沙丁鱼。
But I don't care that I don't like sardines.
但我不在乎我不喜欢沙丁鱼。
I'm over it.
我已经结束了。
I was over it from the first sardine.
从第一条沙丁鱼开始我就受够了。
Twyla Tharp: Right.
特怀拉·撒普：对。
Phil's on the cusp of the avant-garde.
菲尔处于先锋派的风口浪尖。
The avant-garde is a smug place to be, and can be very aggravating, and can also be not that bright, and very indulgent.
前卫是一个自鸣得意的地方，可能非常令人恼火，也可能不那么明亮，而且非常放纵。
There might have been some sense of that to it.
也许有一些这样的感觉。
The avant-garde can confuse itself with originality and vice versa.
先锋派可能会将自己与原创性相混淆，反之亦然。
Andrew Huberman: Do you think it's important for dancers to be classically trained before they get into other forms?
Andrew Huberman：您认为舞者在进入其他形式之前接受古典训练重要吗？
Twyla Tharp: To be classically trained, absolutely.
Twyla Tharp：绝对要接受古典训练。
You want to be a musician and not understand the circle of fifths, the harmonies of construction of all music?
您想成为一名音乐家，却不了解五度循环，即所有音乐的和声结构？
No. Ballet is a format for the human body moving in space that has evolved over many centuries and has got a head start on us.
不。芭蕾舞是人体在太空中移动的一种形式，它已经发展了多个世纪，并且比我们领先。
And if you want to learn about how you move, you might as well try and jump a little further forward by studying ballet.
如果你想了解如何移动，不妨通过学习芭蕾舞来尝试向前跳一点。
Twyla Tharp: I don't care, ultimately, if your arabesque, which is one leg behind, one leg under, right?
Twyla Tharp：我不在乎，最终，如果你的阿拉伯式花纹，一条腿在后面，一条腿在下面，对吗？
If your arabesque is aligned in a perfectly classical manner, unless it's a perfectly classical ballet.
如果您的阿拉伯式花纹以完美的古典方式排列，除非它是完美的古典芭蕾舞剧。
But I do care you have that gear, and you can reference it in terms of where's the leg going to move from and does it get to that point.
但我确实关心你有那个装备，你可以根据腿将从哪里移动以及是否到达那个点来参考它。
Can it stop right on its center or not?
它能停在中心吗？
That's what ballet can do.
这就是芭蕾舞可以做到的。
Andrew Huberman: If there's a proper way for a movement to be done, the limb, every element within the limb has to move from point A to point B in a certain trajectory, and people come in different sizes and shapes, and you've got multiple dancers on stage.
Andrew Huberman：如果有一个正确的运动方式，那么肢体、肢体内的每个元素都必须按照一定的轨迹从 A 点移动到 B 点，而且人们有不同的身材和形状，而且舞台上有多个舞者。
How do you reconcile that?
你如何协调这一点？
Twyla Tharp: You don't.
特怀拉·撒普：你不知道。
And the word is 'properly.' Properly.
这个词就是“适当”。适当地。
What is proper?
什么才是正确的呢？
I had the experience of working with the Kirov in St. Petersburg, and I went to their school.
我有在圣彼得堡基洛夫工作的经历，我去了他们的学校。
Twyla Tharp: And the children are lined up, and they are exact replicas, and they have a huge selection mechanism throughout the country for picking those 10 or 12 kids that are going to be in there, of whatever age.
Twyla Tharp：孩子们排成一排，他们是一模一样的复制品，他们在全国范围内有一个巨大的选择机制，可以挑选 10 或 12 个孩子，无论年龄多大。
Twyla Tharp: And I saw one group of little boys, less than eight years old.
Twyla Tharp：我看到一群小男孩，不到八岁。
There were probably eight or nine of them in their little black shorts, their little white shirts.
大概有八九个人穿着黑色小短裤和白色小衬衫。
And I just came in briefly, and they were being, as they do...
我只是短暂地进来了，他们正在，就像他们所做的那样……
It's a part of the tradition, and it's wonderful.
这是传统的一部分，而且很棒。
They're being very respectful, and it was like, "Oh, come in, and you will sit here, and they will continue, and then we're getting moved to the next class."
他们非常尊重，就像是，“哦，进来，你坐在这里，他们会继续，然后我们就被转移到下一个班级。”
Twyla Tharp: And one little boy came out and said, "No, no, no, we want to do more." So we went back, and they started jumping out of sequence because a ballet class is very carefully constructed to warm up the body and also to develop the training, so you're working both laterally and in depth in every technique class.
Twyla Tharp：一个小男孩走出来说：“不，不，不，我们想做更多。”所以我们回去了，他们开始乱序，因为芭蕾舞课程是非常精心设计的，目的是热身身体并发展训练，所以你在每个技术课程中都在横向和深入地工作。
Twyla Tharp: They went out of sequence so the boys could jump, which is usually not done till the very end of class.
Twyla Tharp：他们打乱了顺序，这样男孩们就可以跳跃，这通常要到下课才完成。
And this little guy had real what we call ballon.
这个小家伙有真正的我们所说的气球。
He could go up, and he could, for moments, it seems like he's able to suspend.
他可以上升，他可以，有那么一会儿，他似乎可以暂停。
He knew he had that.
他知道他有这个能力。
Andrew Huberman: He could fly.
安德鲁·休伯曼：他会飞。
Twyla Tharp: And he knew I wouldn't see that at the barre so he wanted to..
Twyla Tharp：他知道我不会在把杆上看到这个，所以他想……
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Twyla Tharp: But he was what we call pronated.
Twyla Tharp：但他就是我们所说的旋前。
His feet were hyperextended to the outside, so he's not going straight up through the metatarsal.
他的脚过度向外伸展，所以他不会直接穿过跖骨。
He's going up through the outside of the leg.
他从腿外侧向上走。
And I pulled the teacher out, and I said, "You know, that kid's phenomenally talented." And he said, "Yeah, we know." And I said, "But he's pronating." He said, "We know that too, but we have eight other ones.
我把老师拉了出来，说：“你知道，那孩子天赋异禀。”他说：“是的，我们知道。”我说：“但是他正在内翻。”他说：“我们也知道这一点，但我们还有另外八个。
If he doesn't figure that out, he's out, and we'll bring in another one."
如果他不能解决这个问题，他就会出局，我们会再引进一个。”
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Ooh.
安德鲁·休伯曼：哦。
Twyla Tharp: And this can be the difference between a child who grows into an adult with a career and a life, and one who's lost.
特怀拉·撒普：这可能是一个孩子成长为有事业和生活的成年人与一个迷失的人之间的区别。
So parents are very protective of trying to get this opportunity for their kids, and it's heartbreaking.
因此，父母非常保护自己的孩子，试图为他们的孩子争取这个机会，这令人心碎。
And the way they are trained is they are wrenched into these positions.
他们接受训练的方式是被强迫担任这些职位。
And I saw, in an older class of young girls, an arabesque, and one leg was not slightly behind.
我在一个年龄较大的年轻女孩班级中看到了阿拉伯式花纹，并且一条腿不稍落后。
Twyla Tharp: The teacher came and literally pinned the leg behind with one arm and drew the shoulder out this way, literally pushed her, and then released her, and that's how they teach.
Twyla Tharp：老师来了，用一只手臂将腿固定在后面，然后将肩膀拉出，实际上推了她，然后松开了她，这就是他们的教学方式。
You think that's going to happen in America?
你认为这会发生在美国吗？
I don't think so.
我不这么认为。
And that's what it takes to create a line of people who, at the barre, hit exactly the same arabesque.
这就是创造出一群在把杆上打出完全相同的阿拉伯式花纹的人所需要的。
Twyla Tharp: It's both a thing of extraordinary beauty and a thing of incredible lack of choice because that arabesque is going to be set for life in that one angular demarcation, right?
Twyla Tharp：这既是一件异常美丽的事情，也是一件令人难以置信的缺乏选择的事情，因为这种阿拉伯式花纹将永远存在于那个角度分界中，对吧？
And heaven knows here in the West, we like to encourage all kinds of wanderings around, which is hard to get through the head of a child who's been trained in this way to stay within those parameters.
天知道在西方，我们喜欢鼓励各种四处游荡，这对于一个受过这种方式训练以保持在这些参数范围内的孩子来说是很难理解的。
And it says something also, obviously, about the political situation, right?
显然，它也说明了政治局势，对吗？
Those kids don't have a lot of choice.
这些孩子没有太多选择。
They toe the line.
他们听从指挥。
Andrew Huberman: So, is the goal to get that uniformity?
Andrew Huberman：那么，目标是实现这种一致性吗？
Twyla Tharp: Absolutely.
特怀拉·撒普：当然。
I mean, for a person who works sometimes to what's called unison, there are times when you want...
我的意思是，对于一个有时候工作协调一致的人来说，有时候你想要……
I don't do it that often.
我不经常这样做。
It's a lot of work, and I don't like what it says about democracy.
这是一项繁重的工作，而且我不喜欢它所说的民主。
But if you need to have unison, you want unison, and that means an exact agreement on time and space.
但如果你需要一致，那就需要一致，这意味着时间和空间上的精确一致。
Twyla Tharp: Now, your other question about what about different body types and so forth, I can accommodate that because I can gain my unison from the center.
Twyla Tharp：现在，你的另一个问题是关于不同体型的问题等等，我可以解决这个问题，因为我可以从中心获得一致。
What we're talking about at the ballet here, it gains it from the periphery, from the exterior point, from the broad reach.
我们在这里谈论的芭蕾舞，它是从外围、从外部、从广泛的范围获得的。
I'll accept my broad reach is not going to be actually in uniform, but my center is going to be.
我承认我的广泛影响力实际上不会穿制服，但我的中心将会是。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Twyla Tharp: And I'll make that compromise.
Twyla Tharp：我会做出妥协。
It's a compromise of sorts.
这是某种妥协。
It's not really a compromise, it's an agreement.
这并不是真正的妥协，而是一种协议。
I'll make that definition because I want them to work from an interior purpose, and the visuals of it are your problem.
我会做出这个定义，因为我希望它们从内部目的出发，而它的视觉效果是你的问题。
Andrew Huberman: By now, I'm sure that many of you have heard me say that I've been taking AG1 for more than a decade, and indeed, that's true.
Andrew Huberman：到目前为止，我相信你们很多人都听我说过我服用 AG1 已有十多年了，事实上，这是真的。
The reason I started taking AG1 way back in 2012, and the reason why I still continue to take it every single day, is because AG1 is, to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market.
我早在 2012 年就开始服用 AG1，并且至今仍然每天服用，因为据我所知，AG1 是市场上质量最高、最全面的基础营养补充剂。
Andrew Huberman: What that means is that it contains not just vitamins and minerals, but also probiotics, prebiotics, and adaptogens to cover any gaps that you might have in your diet while also providing support for a demanding life.
Andrew Huberman：这意味着它不仅含有维生素和矿物质，还含有益生菌、益生元和适应原，可以弥补您饮食中可能存在的任何空白，同时也为高要求的生活提供支持。
Given the probiotics and prebiotics in AG1, it also helps support a healthy gut microbiome.
鉴于 AG1 中的益生菌和益生元，它还有助于支持健康的肠道微生物组。
The gut microbiome consists of trillions of little microorganisms that line your digestive tract and impact things such as your immune status, your metabolic health, your hormone health, and much more.
肠道微生物组由数万亿个小微生物组成，它们排列在您的消化道中，并影响您的免疫状态、代谢健康、激素健康等。
Andrew Huberman: Taking AG1 consistently helps my digestion, keeps my immune system strong, and it ensures that my mood and mental focus are always at their best.
Andrew Huberman：持续服用 AG1 有助于我的消化，保持我的免疫系统强大，并确保我的情绪和精神焦点始终处于最佳状态。
AG1 is now available in three new flavors: berry, citrus, and tropical.
AG1 现已推出三种新口味：浆果味、柑橘味和热带味。
And while I've always loved the AG1 original flavor, especially with a bit of lemon juice added, I'm really enjoying the new berry flavor in particular.
虽然我一直很喜欢 AG1 原味，尤其是添加了一点柠檬汁，但我真的特别喜欢新的浆果味。
It tastes great, but then again, I do love all the flavors.
味道很棒，但话又说回来，我确实喜欢所有的口味。
Andrew Huberman: If you'd like to try AG1 and try these new flavors, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.
Andrew Huberman：如果您想尝试 AG1 并尝试这些新口味，您可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 申请特别优惠。
Just go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get started.
只需访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 即可开始。
Andrew Huberman: I'm going to ask a couple of questions in the frame of biology that I think, I'm hoping you might find interesting, but you certainly have the information that I'm seeking here.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：我想在生物学的框架内问几个问题，我希望你可能会感兴趣，但你肯定有我在这里寻找的信息。
Twyla Tharp: Okay.
特怀拉·撒普：好的。
Andrew Huberman: First off, you may know this, but if you don't, there's a great Nobel Prize-winning physiologist, his name was Sherrington, and he said, "The final common path is movement." That basically, the movement of an organism, especially mammals, is really what the nervous system is constructed for.
安德鲁·休伯曼：首先，你可能知道这一点，但如果你不知道，有一位伟大的诺贝尔奖获得者生理学家，他的名字叫谢林顿，他说，“最后的共同道路是运动。”基本上，生物体（尤其是哺乳动物）的运动正是神经系统的构建目的。
Andrew Huberman: And more modern theories are that movement came, then dance came, then song, then language.
安德鲁·休伯曼：更现代的理论是，运动出现，然后舞蹈出现，然后是歌曲，然后是语言。
But that movement is the foundation of everything as it relates to evolution of a species, finding mates, finding food.
但这种运动是一切的基础，因为它关系到物种的进化、寻找伴侣、寻找食物。
Twyla Tharp: Can I interrupt you?
特怀拉·萨普：我可以打断你吗？
Andrew Huberman: Please.
安德鲁·休伯曼：拜托。
Twyla Tharp: It is even more basic because movement is the first thing we're going to do, and you don't make any sound until you can move parts of you.
Twyla Tharp：这是更基本的，因为运动是我们要做的第一件事，在你可以移动身体的一部分之前，你不会发出任何声音。
Andrew Huberman: Mm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Twyla Tharp: You don't feed yourself until you can move that hand.
Twyla Tharp：除非你能移动那只手，否则你不会自己吃饭。
You don't write anything, language, music, or nada, without movement.
如果没有动作，你就写不出任何东西，语言、音乐或虚无。
Why do we therefore stick movement way down here under the bottom of our cultural heap as somehow shameful or what?
为什么我们把运动置于我们文化堆的最底层，认为它是可耻的还是什么？
What is it with the aspect of dance that makes it a less kind of revered format than sculpture or painting, or music?
舞蹈的哪些方面使它不像雕塑、绘画或音乐那样受人尊敬？
A secondary handmaiden to the arts, really?
艺术的二级侍女，真的吗？
Andrew Huberman: Well, I certainly appreciate movement, and I know that...
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯，我当然很欣赏运动，而且我知道......
And I like to think that people's obsession with athleticism in some sense reflects that, too.
我认为人们对运动的痴迷在某种意义上也反映了这一点。
Twyla Tharp: Totally.
特怀拉·萨普：完全可以。
Andrew Huberman: I've been wanting to ask you this question for a very long time since I heard your book, even though it's not about the creative process, and here goes.
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：自从我听到你的书以来，我很长时间以来一直想问你这个问题，尽管它与创作过程无关，但现在就这样。
I'm going to keep this as brief as possible just to give the raw materials for your response.
我将尽可能简短，以便为您的回应提供原材料。
Andrew Huberman: So, the motor neurons, the neurons that control movement, they control movement of the trunk, they control movement of the fine digits of the fingers, that are the fingers, the digits, as we call them in science, right, nerdspeak, the wrists, everything.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，运动神经元，控制运动的神经元，它们控制躯干的运动，它们控制手指的精细手指的运动，即手指，手指，正如我们在科学中所说的那样，对，书呆子说的，手腕，一切。
So we say from proximal to distal, like from center out.
所以我们说从近端到远端，就像从中心向外一样。
Andrew Huberman: There's this incredible thing that's been discovered over the last 20 years or so, which is that the molecular identities of the neurons that control the movement of my trunk and your trunk forward and back and side to side are exactly the same as the neurons that control undulation in a fish.
Andrew Huberman：在过去 20 年左右的时间里，人们发现了一件令人难以置信的事情，那就是控制我的躯干和你的躯干向前、向后、左右移动的神经元的分子特性与控制鱼的波动的神经元完全相同。
Andrew Huberman: The neurons that control the movement of the proximal limbs, like the upper arms and the thighs, are molecularly identical to the neurons that exist to control fin movement in fish.
Andrew Huberman：控制上臂和大腿等近端肢体运动的神经元在分子上与控制鱼类鳍运动的神经元相同。
And that what evolved was progressively more and more motor neurons so that we, as old world primates, can manipulate the fine digits like so.
进化的是越来越多的运动神经元，这样我们作为旧世界的灵长类动物就可以像这样操纵精细的手指。
Andrew Huberman: Okay, so that's fine.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的，没关系。
That just tells you that there's this kind of primitive to more evolved structure of neurons that control movement from center out.
这只是告诉你，存在这种从原始到更进化的神经元结构，控制着从中心向外的运动。
What's fascinating to me is that while I'm sure there are people who can move their trunk at very high frequency, undulate at high frequency, that's a hard thing to do.
让我着迷的是，虽然我确信有人可以以非常高的频率移动他们的躯干，以高频率波动，但这是一件很难做到的事情。
That generally has to be learned.
这一般都是需要学习的。
Like I can move my trunk slowly from side to side, but it's hard to move it very fast from side to side, but I can move my fingers very fast.
就像我可以缓慢地从一侧移动到另一侧，但是很难快速地从一侧移动到另一侧，但我可以很快地移动手指。
Andrew Huberman: And so there's basically a frequency map from the center out on the body.
Andrew Huberman：所以基本上有一个从身体中心到外面的频率图。
So now when I look at the way people move, I think, because I'm a neuroscientist and I have this knowledge in my head, they're communicating frequency, and frequency in photon space gives you a very interesting...
所以现在当我观察人们移动的方式时，我想，因为我是一名神经科学家，我脑子里有这些知识，他们正在交流频率，而光子空间中的频率给了你一个非常有趣的……
We have wavelength, we have also frequency.
我们有波长，也有频率。
Andrew Huberman: In sound, you have low and high pitches, low to high pitch, and in other domains, you also have this.
Andrew Huberman：在声音中，有低音和高音，从低音到高音，在其他领域，也有这个。
And so, to me first of all, I'd love your thoughts on this.
因此，首先对我来说，我很想听听您对此的想法。
I'm not asking for validation of a theory.
我并不是要求验证理论。
This just is what it is.
这就是事实。
I didn't come up with this.
我没有想出这个。
Andrew Huberman: But I wonder whether or not, consciously or unconsciously, when you've choreographed dance, whether or not you're making music with movement in a way that maps onto this idea of a frequency map from center out.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：但我想知道，当你编排舞蹈时，是否有意识或无意识地，你是否以一种映射到从中心向外的频率图的方式来制作带有运动的音乐。
Maybe?
或许？
In part?
部分？
No?
不？
Twyla Tharp: Sweetness, my love.
特怀拉·撒普：甜蜜，我的爱。
Did we not discuss already much earlier the importance and specificity of center?
我们不是很早就讨论过中心的重要性和特殊性了吗？
Now, what you're saying about the different rates of the tendrils, the neurons, the cellular, macular...
现在，你所说的是卷须、神经元、细胞、黄斑的不同速率……
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, the...
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，...
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, the neurons that control the trunk versus the upper arms versus the digits.
Andrew Huberman：是的，控制躯干、上臂和手指的神经元。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
This has got more choice, can make more choice than this can make.
这有了更多的选择，可以做出比这更多的选择。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Twyla Tharp: Do I think about the parts of the body as...
Twyla Tharp：我是否将身体的各个部分视为......
Sometimes.
有时。
In other words, the legs can be working at one rate of speed, say halftime of what the arm is doing, and they'll be on the same metronomic base, but they'll be operating at a different speed.
换句话说，腿可以以一种速度工作，比如手臂工作的一半时间，它们将处于相同的节拍基础上，但它们将以不同的速度运行。
Certainly, I would think of that.
当然，我会想到这一点。
Twyla Tharp: What I think about power, that sometimes, you can isolate through the center, and there'll be a huge impact from the top, but that the lower body will be fluid.
Twyla Tharp：我对力量的看法是，有时，你可以通过中心进行隔离，并且会从顶部产生巨大的影响，但下半身将是流动的。
Sometimes.
有时。
I mean, I've ripped off Tai chi forever, it's okay.
我的意思是，我已经永远地剥夺了太极拳，没关系。
So we're doing Tai chi, and suddenly...
所以我们正在打太极拳，突然...
And then we're back into it, right?
然后我们又回到正题，对吧？
So, it's just a jolt that goes through it, and I suppose that's a change in your neurological construct.
所以，这只是一次震动，我想这是你神经结构的变化。
Twyla Tharp: I mean, what interests me in what you're saying is a part of the nightmare of my life, which is dance has difficulty, and one of the reasons it has difficulty in being registered by many people in our culture, is that it doesn't have easy access to being documented and recorded in the way that music does or language does.
Twyla Tharp：我的意思是，你所说的让我感兴趣的是我生活中噩梦的一部分，那就是舞蹈有困难，而它在我们文化中难以被许多人认可的原因之一是它不像音乐或语言那样容易被记录和记录。
Twyla Tharp: What you're saying, I've argued for many years, should be a way of documenting movement that people could read, and then they could read a dance, and then they would feel grounded in that tradition and understanding of that tradition.
Twyla Tharp：我多年来一直主张，你所说的应该是一种记录人们可以阅读的动作的方式，然后他们可以阅读舞蹈，然后他们会感到扎根于该传统并理解该传统。
They could study that tradition.
他们可以研究这个传统。
That's not now possible.
现在不可能了。
Andrew Huberman: I'd like to talk about the creative process a bit, in a way that perhaps people can structure some of their own creative pursuits.
Andrew Huberman：我想谈谈创作过程，也许人们可以构建自己的一些创作追求。
At what point do you know the spine?
你什么时候认识脊柱的？
Twyla Tharp: The beginning and the end.
特怀拉·萨普：开始和结束。
Andrew Huberman: Okay.
安德鲁·休伯曼：好的。
Twyla Tharp: Okay, what do I mean?
特怀拉·撒普：好吧，我是什么意思？
In the beginning, you hope for it.
一开始，你满怀希望。
And you have a little taste of it, or you wouldn't be able to...
而且你也有一点点的品味，不然你就无法...
I wouldn't be able to start without the tiniest little indication there's something there that's actually going to hook it, and that's going to allow me to start building.
如果没有最微小的迹象，我就无法开始，那里有东西实际上会钩住它，这将让我开始构建。
And this is where the process becomes very reassuring.
这就是这个过程变得非常令人放心的地方。
You start building the wall.
你开始建造墙。
You're just mixing the mortar and putting the brick in mixing the mortar and putting the bits...
你只需混合砂浆，然后放入砖块，混合砂浆，然后放入碎块......
Twyla Tharp: And the wall grows, and it develops all of this stuff happening, and you're just doing the mortar and the brick.
Twyla Tharp：墙不断生长，所有这些事情都发生了，而你只需做砂浆和砖块。
And it's very not menacing and extraordinarily rewarding, and the place you want to live.
而且它没有威胁性，而且回报丰厚，是你想要居住的地方。
But you can't, because you got to finish the work and let it go.
但你不能，因为你必须完成工作并放手。
A dismal moment.
一个令人沮丧的时刻。
Andrew Huberman: Maybe we put this into example.
Andrew Huberman：也许我们可以举个例子。
Let's say, I want to write a short story.
比方说，我想写一个短篇故事。
I realize you're a choreographer, not a writing instructor, but we'd say like, what's the...
我知道你是一名编舞家，而不是一名写作导师，但我们会说，那是什么......
And then you say, well someone says, they want to write stories or books.
然后你说，有人说，他们想写故事或书。
"So, what's the spine?" Right?
“那么，脊椎是什么？”正确的？
Twyla Tharp: Well, the first thing is: What's the idea?
Twyla Tharp：嗯，第一件事是：这个想法是什么？
The first thing is where's the story?
首先要问的是故事在哪里？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Twyla Tharp: I mean, some writers have to know the end before they can start at the beginning.
特怀拉·撒普：我的意思是，有些作家必须先知道结局，然后才能从头开始。
Others want nothing to do with the end until they've at least reached the middle, because they want the work to find itself.
其他人在至少到达中间之前不想与结局有任何关系，因为他们希望工作能够找到自己。
That's a part of the privilege of being a writer and the pain of being a writer.
这是作为一名作家的特权的一部分，也是作为一名作家的痛苦的一部分。
Twyla Tharp: But the construct of starting, sometimes it's simply habit and discipline.
Twyla Tharp：但是开始的结构，有时只是习惯和纪律。
And you are going to go in, and you are going to start at, let's say, 6:45 every morning, and you're going to give yourself...
你要进去，你要从每天早上 6:45 开始，你要给自己……
You've only got an hour and a half, okay?
你只有一个半小时的时间，好吗？
I'm not talking about you're a professional writer.
我不是在说你是一名职业作家。
Twyla Tharp: I'm talking about you're a person who maybe wants to become a professional writer, but who's got at least one other job and maybe two and probably a kid to deal with.
特怀拉·撒普：我说的是你是一个可能想成为一名职业作家的人，但他至少还有一份其他工作，也许还有两份工作，可能还有一个孩子要处理。
An hour and a half is a lot of time in that life.
一个半小时对于那一生来说是很多时间。
Twyla Tharp: So starting, you got to start with something, and either there's an idea that you really are energized by, or you start writing something, get something on the page, and bit by bit it becomes a habit.
Twyla Tharp：所以开始时，你必须从一些事情开始，要么有一个真正让你充满活力的想法，要么你开始写一些东西，在页面上写一些东西，然后一点一点地变成一种习惯。
And maybe that habit evolves, and maybe it doesn't, and maybe you give it up, and maybe you find that you...
也许这个习惯会发展，也许不会，也许你放弃它，也许你发现你......
Then you get an idea.
然后你就有了主意。
You find something you keep returning to, and it pulls you.
你会发现一些你不断回头的东西，它会吸引你。
It hypnotizes you.
它会催眠你。
It makes you want to follow it, see where it will go to, see how it will develop.
它让你想要追随它，看看它会走向何方，看看它会如何发展。
And then at a certain point, it's done.
然后在某个时刻，事情就完成了。
It's played out.
已经玩完了
Twyla Tharp: Maybe you can guide that so that it becomes more exciting, and you learn how to build as you're going along, and you learn how to direct it so that it's going to get to either a surprising end, where it has to end, and the reader's going to say, "I should have seen that," or you're going to say, "I should have seen that," or you're going to go, "No way.
Twyla Tharp：也许你可以引导它，让它变得更令人兴奋，你学习如何在你进行的过程中构建，你学习如何引导它，这样它就会达到一个令人惊讶的结局，它必须结束，读者会说，“我应该看到那个，”或者你会说，“我应该看到那个，”或者你会说，“不可能。
You're a liar.
你是个骗子。
I'm not going to buy this book."
我不会买这本书。”
Andrew Huberman: But the showing up at 6:45 consistently is the bricklaying that's essential.
Andrew Huberman：但是始终如一地在 6 点 45 分出现是至关重要的砌砖工作。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah, because it allows you to think that you could be a writer.
Twyla Tharp：是的，因为它让你认为你可以成为一名作家。
Andrew Huberman: Sort of living into a delusion that could be a reality.
安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：有点生活在可能成为现实的幻想中。
Twyla Tharp: Could be.
特怀拉·撒普：有可能。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Twyla Tharp: And maybe it's not a delusion, because maybe what you start to write immediately is a very interesting sentence or two.
Twyla Tharp：也许这不是错觉，因为也许你立即开始写的是一两句话非常有趣。
Andrew Huberman: Some days.
安德鲁·休伯曼：有时候。
Maybe it...
或许它...
Twyla Tharp: Some days.
特怀拉·萨普：有些日子。
Yeah, you can't expect a good time every day.
是的，你不能指望每天都过得愉快。
You might want to quote me on that.
你可能想引用我的话。
Andrew Huberman: You have a reputation for having risen early and gotten to the gym by 5:00 AM for two hours, eating three hard-boiled eggs post-workout, day in after day out for a very long time.
Andrew Huberman：您因早起并在凌晨 5:00 之前到健身房锻炼两个小时、锻炼后吃三个煮鸡蛋而闻名，日复一日地坚持了很长一段时间。
Tell us about that ritual, and do you still enjoy it?
告诉我们这个仪式，你还喜欢它吗？
Twyla Tharp: It's not a ritual, and I never enjoyed it.
Twyla Tharp：这不是一种仪式，我从来不喜欢它。
It's a reality.
这是现实。
And you do it because you need an instrument that you can challenge.
你这样做是因为你需要一个可以挑战的工具。
And in order to challenge something, you got to know how it stands.
为了挑战某件事，你必须了解它的情况。
I mean, I could challenge, you wouldn't want me to, the centering of this.
我的意思是，我可以挑战这一点的中心，你不会希望我这么做。
But I can only do it if it's already grounded, then I can try to throw it off.
但只有在它已经接地的情况下我才能做到这一点，然后我才能尝试将其扔掉。
You can't just throw things off.
你不能就这么把东西扔掉。
They got to be set before you can throw them off, right?
在你把它们扔掉之前，它们必须被设置好，对吗？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Twyla Tharp: So that is, you just set the mechanism for the day, you're going to have to do it.
Twyla Tharp：也就是说，你只需设定当天的机制，你就必须这样做。
It's kind of boring, and it's kind of loathsome.
这有点无聊，也有点令人厌恶。
I would rather go to the gym than brush my teeth, I'll tell you that.
我宁愿去健身房也不愿刷牙，我会告诉你的。
Andrew Huberman: Could you give us a bit of insight into your inner dialogue around days when you don't want to go?
Andrew Huberman：您能否给我们一些关于您不想去的日子里的内心对话的见解？
Is there a self-talk, or have you learned to push aside the voice that says, "Maybe not today?"
有没有自言自语，或者你是否学会了把“也许今天不行？”的声音放在一边？
Twyla Tharp: Yeah.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
No, it's simple.
不，很简单。
If you don't work when you don't want to work, you're not going to be able to work when you do want to work.
如果你不想工作时不工作，那么当你想工作时你也无法工作。
End of story.
故事结束。
Andrew Huberman: Were you always like this?
安德鲁·休伯曼：你一直都是这样吗？
Twyla Tharp: What do you mean, like this?
Twyla Tharp：像这样，你是什么意思？
Andrew Huberman: I didn't mean that in that sense and you know I didn't.
Andrew Huberman：我不是这个意思，你也知道我不是这个意思。
Twyla Tharp: You did.
特怀拉·撒普：你做到了。
Twyla Tharp: I don't.
特怀拉·萨普：我不这么认为。
Andrew Huberman: You know I didn't.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你知道我没有。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah, I don't.
特怀拉·撒普：是的，我不这么认为。
Andrew Huberman: You know I didn't.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你知道我没有。
I meant, have you always been this disciplined and had this clear view of the necessity for hard work?
我的意思是，你一直都这么自律，并且清楚地认识到努力工作的必要性吗？
Twyla Tharp: My mother was an extraordinary force in anybody's life.
Twyla Tharp：我的母亲在每个人的生活中都是一股非凡的力量。
She happened to be in mine, okay?
她恰好在我的身边，好吗？
I was trained as a very young child to practice, whether...
我在很小的时候就被训练去练习，无论是...
Anything, everything had to be practiced, and it had to be scheduled to be practiced.
任何事情，一切都要练，而且要安排练。
And time is limited, and you don't waste it.
而且时间有限，不能浪费。
Twyla Tharp: And you work very hard, and you try to maximize that period of time, because otherwise you're being wasteful.
Twyla Tharp：你工作非常努力，并且试图最大限度地利用这段时间，否则你就是在浪费。
And while I said I'm from San Berdu, I am, but I'm not.
虽然我说我来自圣贝尔杜，但我不是。
I am from the Midwest.
我来自中西部。
I was born in Indiana, and left when I was eight.
我出生在印第安纳州，八岁时离开。
But up until that point, I had the extraordinary good fortune of being on my grandparents' farm for long stretches of time without my parents.
但在那之前，我有幸在祖父母的农场里呆了很长一段时间，没有父母陪伴。
And these farms were in Amish territory, and the family's Quaker.
这些农场位于阿米什人的领地内，也是该家族的贵格会成员。
And the land was the land, period.
土地就是土地，就这样。
There was no electricity.
没有电。
There were no phones.
没有电话。
There was plant the seed, grow the seed, kill the hogs, wring the chicken's neck, and you work, or you don't eat.
播下种子，长出种子，杀猪，拧断鸡的脖子，你要么工作，要么不吃饭。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, the Midwest sensibility is something to behold.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，中西部的情感值得一看。
I have a lot of friends in the Midwest.
我在中西部有很多朋友。
There's a real decency out there in terms of how people communicate with one another, they do and don't know, and there's a real thing to farmers.
就人们之间的沟通方式而言，无论他们知道还是不知道，这都是一种真正的体面，这对农民来说是一件真实的事情。
Twyla Tharp: Yup.
特怀拉·萨普：是的。
Andrew Huberman: At Stanford, when I was a postdoc, there was a MD-PhD student in the laboratory.
Andrew Huberman：在斯坦福大学，当我还是一名博士后时，实验室里有一名医学博士生。
She'd grown up on a mushroom farm, not the psilocybin mushrooms, the kind you eat and don't hallucinate, on a mushroom farm in rural Pennsylvania.
她是在一个蘑菇农场长大的，而不是在宾夕法尼亚州乡村的一个蘑菇农场里长大的裸盖菇素蘑菇，那种你吃了不会产生幻觉的蘑菇。
Twyla Tharp: Oh.
特怀拉·撒普：哦。
Andrew Huberman: And her work ethic, and this is at Stanford School of Medicine, where people are very driven, not just on average.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：还有她的职业道德，这是在斯坦福大学医学院，那里的人们非常有动力，而不仅仅是平均水平。
Twyla Tharp: Right.
特怀拉·撒普：对。
Yeah, yeah.
是啊是啊。
Andrew Huberman: Her work ethic was unbelievable.
安德鲁·休伯曼：她的职业道德令人难以置信。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And her cheerfulness about it was also unbelievable.
安德鲁·休伯曼：她对此的高兴程度也令人难以置信。
Twyla Tharp: Yes.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
Andrew Huberman: It was spectacular.
安德鲁·休伯曼：太壮观了。
Twyla Tharp: The delight, in fact.
Twyla Tharp：事实上，很高兴。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
She had a bike accident on...
她在一次自行车事故中...
A few people will know who this is.
有几个人会知道这是谁。
Twyla Tharp: Uh-oh.
特怀拉·撒普：呃哦。
Andrew Huberman: She had a horrible bike accident on campus, knocked out all her teeth.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：她在校园里发生了一场可怕的自行车事故，撞掉了所有的牙齿。
Someone had stepped out in front of her at the...
就在这时，有人挡在了她的面前……
She was back in the laboratory with falsies in, and working, I think, within 48 hours.
我想，她在 48 小时内就带着错误回到了实验室，并开始工作。
This would've put anyone else out for a much longer time.
这会让其他人在更长时间内陷入困境。
Twyla Tharp: Holy shit.
特怀拉·撒普：天哪。
Andrew Huberman: I haven't kept up with her, but I'm sure that she's a spectacular physician, scientist, wherever she is.
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：我没有关注她，但我确信无论她身在何处，她都是一位出色的医生、科学家。
But there's really something to the farming piece.
但农业方面确实有一些东西。
Twyla Tharp: It is communal, and it is the sense that while these farms are very isolated, I mean, 100-acre plots that are divided by tree barriers from one another, that somebody has your back all the time.
Twyla Tharp：这是公共的，虽然这些农场非常孤立，但我的意思是，100 英亩的土地被树木屏障彼此分隔，但有人始终在背后支持你。
I still have my grandmother's quilting frames.
我仍然保留着祖母的绗缝架。
And when established, it require eight women, four or two to a side, and the quilt gets done, and then you make eight of them, and each one gets a quilt.
建立起来后，需要八个女人，每边四到两个，被子就做好了，然后你做八个人，每个人都得到一床被子。
Twyla Tharp: And you know that to do the big job, the barn that's got to get up, you have to utilize forces outside yourself, in order to accomplish this, and that you owe them.
Twyla Tharp：你知道，要完成这项艰巨的任务，必须把谷仓建起来，你必须利用外部力量来完成这项任务，你欠他们的。
And you want to.
你愿意。
It's not an obligation.
这不是义务。
It's a sharing.
这是一个分享。
And you understand, "Okay, I'm getting that barn.
你明白了，“好吧，我得到那个谷仓。
I owe services here for seven more barns or whatever." This is an excellent thing.
我还欠这里七个谷仓之类的服务。”这是一件极好的事情。
And I do try to think of dance that way, and I do think a well-made dance is a good community.
我确实尝试以这种方式思考舞蹈，而且我确实认为精心制作的舞蹈是一个良好的社区。
Andrew Huberman: Hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Twyla Tharp: It's society as it ought to be.
Twyla Tharp：这就是社会应有的样子。
It works the way we should work together.
它按照我们应该合作的方式运作。
Andrew Huberman: You mentioned Quaker.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你提到了贵格会。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I've been to a couple Quaker meetings.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我参加过几次贵格会会议。
Twyla Tharp: Silent meetings?
Twyla Tharp：无声会议？
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Every once in a while, someone would stand up and say something.
每隔一段时间，就会有人站起来说些什么。
I had a friend who was a...
我有一个朋友，他是...
There's a Quaker house near where I used to live when I was finishing my master's, and I became friendly with a guy outside because we would drink coffee at the same coffee shop and chat, and he was like, "You should come to a meeting.
当我完成硕士学位时，我以前住的地方附近有一个贵格会的房子，我和外面的一个人变得很友好，因为我们会在同一家咖啡店喝咖啡聊天，他说，“你应该来参加一个会议。
You might find it interesting." And I knew I was in a benevolent place when I walked in, because in Berkeley, California, if somebody says, "Hey, you should come to a meeting and you're like, you don't know what you're getting into, right?
你可能会觉得很有趣。”当我走进去时，我知道我处于一个仁慈的地方，因为在加利福尼亚州伯克利，如果有人说，“嘿，你应该来参加一个会议，然后你会说，你不知道自己要做什么，对吧？
Twyla Tharp: Yeah.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
Andrew Huberman: But they had a picture of the Quaker Oats.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但他们有一张贵格会燕麦的照片。
A guy on the wall as a joke.
一个人在墙上开玩笑。
I knew, I'm like, "Okay, they can poke some fun at themselves."
我知道，我想，“好吧，他们可以拿自己开玩笑。”
Twyla Tharp: Yeah.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
Andrew Huberman: So yeah, someone would stand up every once in a while, say something, there was some reflection, and then at the end, everyone kind of like said goodbye, and the coffee was...
安德鲁·胡伯曼：所以，是的，每隔一段时间就会有人站起来，说些什么，进行一些反思，然后最后，每个人都说再见，咖啡......
It was interesting.
这很有趣。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah, in those days, for me, were Wednesday evenings, and they were silent meetings.
Twyla Tharp：是的，对我来说，那些日子是周三晚上，而且是无声的会议。
And there would be meetings where no one had anything to say.
而且还会有一些会议，没有人有话要说。
They were silent meetings.
他们是无声的会议。
And simply, you can help me out here.
简而言之，你可以在这里帮助我。
They were not using language, but surely neural rays were going out.
他们没有使用语言，但神经射线肯定会消失。
Twyla Tharp: And probably if there'd been a catastrophe in the culture, some kind of huge fire or something awful, you know that people are thinking.
Twyla Tharp：如果文化中发生了一场灾难，某种大火或可怕的事情，你知道人们正在思考。
You have a sense of what that thinking is, and that there was, and is, and can be a kind of non-verbal communication that's not even a physical...
你知道这种想法是什么，过去、现在、现在都可以是一种非语言交流，甚至不是身体上的……
You're not using sign language to communicate.
您没有使用手语进行交流。
But that you have a sense of what we called in the day, in the air.
但你对我们所说的白天、空气中的东西有一种感觉。
Twyla Tharp: In the air.
特怀拉·撒普：在空中。
And that is a very powerful form of communication that we don't really respect anymore.
这是一种非常强大的沟通方式，但我们已经不再尊重它了。
And how potent is it neurologically?
它在神经学上有多强大？
Andrew Huberman: This last year, the podcast series, "Telepathy Tapes," was very, very popular.
安德鲁·休伯曼：去年，播客系列“心灵感应磁带”非常非常受欢迎。
I haven't had a chance to watch it in full.
我还没有机会完整地观看它。
I listened to a little bit of it.
我听了一点点。
It's about how kids who are non-verbal perhaps can tap into this.
这是关于那些不会说话的孩子如何利用这一点的。
And it's gotten some criticism from the standard scientific community, but also less than you would've anticipated if it had all been complete BS.
它受到了标准科学界的一些批评，但也比你想象的要少，如果它完全是胡说八道的话。
So, I think it's gotten partial acceptance there.
所以，我认为它已经得到了部分接受。
Andrew Huberman: This brings us back to the notion of a center, believe it or not.
Andrew Huberman：不管你信不信，这让我们回到了中心的概念。
Fish have lateral lines.
鱼有侧线。
They sense the electrical fields of other fish and other things near them.
它们感知其他鱼类和附近其他物体的电场。
I mean, there's many, many examples from the animal kingdom of the Platypus with its electric...
我的意思是，动物王国里有很多很多鸭嘴兽的例子，它们有电……
People call it an electric sensing bill, but it sends out these electrical fields that then it can detect things in its environment, because its vision is very poor.
人们称它为电感应比尔，但它发出这些电场，然后它可以检测环境中的物体，因为它的视力很差。
Twyla Tharp: Mm.
特怀拉·撒普：嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Somebody once said, Ed Yong, the writer, said, that so many animals rely on smell.
安德鲁·休伯曼：有人曾经说过，作家埃德·勇说，很多动物都依赖嗅觉。
We sort of smell with our eyes, which sounds crazy, but we use our eyes the way that other animals use their noses, and that gives you an insight into how they use their noses.
我们用眼睛闻气味，这听起来很疯狂，但我们使用眼睛的方式就像其他动物使用鼻子的方式一样，这让你可以深入了解它们如何使用鼻子。
But most animals have a sense of how close or far other members of their species and other things are.
但大多数动物都能感觉到其物种的其他成员和其他事物的远近。
Andrew Huberman: We tend not to think about that, unless you live in a big open space and you get on the New York Subway and suddenly you're like, "Whoa, this is different." But we have these.
Andrew Huberman：我们往往不会考虑这一点，除非你住在一个很大的开放空间，当你乘坐纽约地铁时，你会突然想，“哇，这不一样。”但我们有这些。
We don't really have a lateral line, but we have remnants of things that are similar.
我们实际上没有侧线，但我们有相似事物的残余。
There are beautiful studies showing that if you look for, in an experimental context, magnetoreception in the human brain, people perform above chance.
有一些出色的研究表明，如果你在实验环境中寻找人脑中的磁感受，人们的表现就会高于偶然。
In other words, we can detect magnetic fields.
换句话说，我们可以检测磁场。
People are going to think I'm crazy, but this is published in Science Magazine.
人们会认为我疯了，但这是发表在《科学》杂志上的。
Twyla Tharp: Oh, no. No.
特怀拉·撒普：哦，不。不。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
We can sense electric fields, but we sort of have to train ourselves to do it, and perhaps some people are just naturally leaning that way.
我们可以感知电场，但我们必须训练自己才能做到这一点，也许有些人只是自然地倾向于这种方式。
So, when I say energetic, neural communication across space that isn't just words, sounds, sound waves, and vision, photons.
所以，当我说跨空间的能量神经交流时，它不仅仅是文字、声音、声波和视觉、光子。
So, there's stuff happening at a distance.
所以，有事情发生在远处。
And smell, I think we vastly underestimate the extent to which pheromones and odors of people who are upset, or you know...
至于气味，我认为我们大大低估了心烦意乱的人的信息素和气味的程度，或者你知道......
There's studies showing that human tears affect hormones in people around them.
有研究表明，人类的眼泪会影响周围人的荷尔蒙。
Twyla Tharp: You need to have a 16-year-old boy around you when it comes to the sensitivity to smell and perfumes being sold commercially these days.
Twyla Tharp：当谈到对气味的敏感性和当今商业销售的香水时，你需要有一个 16 岁的男孩在你身边。
Andrew Huberman: Oh my goodness.
安德鲁·休伯曼：天哪。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
But the thing about distance is something that I'm very, very interested in.
但关于距离的事情是我非常非常感兴趣的。
I mean, the awareness is mostly visual for dancers, and it's usually established, again, in class.
我的意思是，对于舞者来说，这种意识主要是视觉上的，而且通常是在课堂上建立的。
If you have a crowded class, the distance can be, ooh, the next one would be out here from this point.
如果你的班级很拥挤，那么距离可能是，哦，下一堂课将从这里开始。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Twyla Tharp: But a really crowded class, the distance might be out here, in which case you're going to be angling yourself to the diagonal, so you're able to get full reach, which is going to impact on design, right?
Twyla Tharp：但是一个非常拥挤的班级，距离可能会在这里，在这种情况下，你将把自己调整到对角线，这样你就能够充分接触到，这会影响设计，对吗？
But there are also ways, and it's very demanding, actually, and it requires a lot of trust on everybody's part, where I can get dancers to work very close together.
但也有很多方法，实际上这要求很高，需要每个人都给予很大的信任，这样我才能让舞者们紧密合作。
Twyla Tharp: And that has a real visual impact, and it becomes a physical sensation of the person watching.
Twyla Tharp：这具有真正的视觉冲击力，并且它成为观看者的身体感觉。
It can become an anxiety, "Oh, don't step on the...
它可能会变成一种焦虑，“哦，别踩...
She's going to get stepped on." And there I'm kind of using it crassly.
她会被踩到的。”我就这样粗暴地使用了它。
But it's interesting to push people into what's called one another's space, and be able to condense the amount of area that people feel comfortable in or require, which could be a very good thing, culturally speaking, because we got less and less space.
但有趣的是，将人们推入所谓的彼此空间，并能够压缩人们感到舒适或需要的区域，从文化角度来说，这可能是一件非常好的事情，因为我们的空间越来越少。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, it's interesting that this notion of communication across space, if we could just continue down this path a bit.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：是的，如果我们能继续沿着这条路走下去，跨空间交流的概念很有趣。
Last year, I had the great honor, really, to do a lecture about music and the brain with Renée Fleming, the great opera singer.
去年，我非常荣幸地与伟大的歌剧歌手蕾妮·弗莱明一起做了一场关于音乐和大脑的讲座。
And we got onto this topic of the fact that the opera singers will capture an emotion.
我们谈到了歌剧演员会捕捉情感这一事实。
Andrew Huberman: They're using their diaphragm in a very particular way, getting a certain frequency of vibration in their body, obviously using air, shaping the air as it leaves their lungs to sing.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：他们以一种非常特殊的方式使用隔膜，在身体中获得一定的振动频率，显然是使用空气，在空气离开肺部唱歌时塑造空气。
Andrew Huberman: And how maybe that's actually impacting the same sets of neurons in the audience, but they're not singing.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：也许这实际上影响了观众中的同一组神经元，但他们并没有唱歌。
Okay, this is kind of an interesting idea that you're feeling the emotion of the singer because your phrenic nerve, the nerve that controls the diaphragm, it might be vibrating at a similar frequency.
好吧，这是一个有趣的想法，你感受到歌手的情绪是因为你的膈神经，控制隔膜的神经，它可能以相似的频率振动。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah, absolutely.
特怀拉·撒普：是的，绝对是。
Andrew Huberman: This sort of gets back to this, like more, I don't want to call them primitive, but more fundamental aspects of language and communication.
Andrew Huberman：这又回到了这一点，就像更多一样，我不想称它们为原始的，而是语言和交流的更基本的方面。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
Twyla Tharp: Yes.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I wonder with dance, and perhaps with athleticism too, like on a football field, when we see somebody move or people move in a certain way, whether or not we don't realize it, perhaps, but that there's almost the illusion that we're moving like that.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：我想知道舞蹈，也许还有运动能力，就像在足球场上一样，当我们看到某人移动或人们以某种方式移动时，无论我们是否意识到这一点，也许，但几乎有一种幻觉，我们就是这样移动的。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
Andrew Huberman: We're accessing this idea of portals, art as portals, that we're actually sensing at some level what it would be like to move like that, and of course, I can't.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：我们正在访问这种门户的想法，艺术作为门户，我们实际上在某种程度上感觉到像那样移动会是什么样子，当然，我不能。
Twyla Tharp: Absolutely.
特怀拉·撒普：当然。
I mean, you know these ocular glasses, right?
我的意思是，你知道这些眼镜，对吗？
That you believe that you're projecting yourself into that item up there and actually feeling it.
你相信你正在将自己投射到那里的那个物品中并实际感受到它。
Hello.
你好。
Right?
对吗？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Twyla Tharp: That must be what is working, what's creating that illusion.
Twyla Tharp：这一定是正在起作用的东西，是什么造成了这种幻觉。
You're not really inside that item, but you feel and believe as though you are.
你并不真正在那个物品里面，但你感觉并相信你好像在里面。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I've done a VR where you think you're in a different body.
Andrew Huberman：是的，我做了一个 VR，让你觉得自己处于不同的身体里。
It's really weird and kind of cool.
这真的很奇怪而且很酷。
You got a...
你有一个...
Twyla Tharp: Right.
特怀拉·撒普：对。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah, I guess so.
特怀拉·撒普：是的，我想是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Twyla Tharp: I'm a little terrified to deal with it, or also, I haven't taken the time to really expose myself to it.
Twyla Tharp：我有点害怕面对它，或者说，我还没有花时间真正让自己接触它。
It definitely is of interest, but when you talk about soccer or an athletic event, you can feel...
这绝对很有趣，但是当你谈论足球或体育赛事时，你会感觉到......
In boxing, you can feel the impact.
在拳击比赛中，你可以感受到这种影响。
You can feel how much poundage is behind that punch.
你可以感觉到这一拳背后有多少磅数。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, you boxed.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，你拳击了。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
Andrew Huberman: With Teddy Atlas as your trainer.
Andrew Huberman：泰迪·阿特拉斯（Teddy Atlas）作为你的教练。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
Andrew Huberman: We have some friends of Teddy Atlas around here.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我们这里有一些泰迪·阿特拉斯的朋友。
Twyla Tharp: Yes.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
Andrew Huberman: What motivated that?
安德鲁·休伯曼：是什么动机呢？
Twyla Tharp: I was in my early 40s, and the Olympics were in LA, and I was making a new piece, and I wanted to compete.
Twyla Tharp：我当时 40 岁出头，奥运会在洛杉矶举行，我正在制作一件新作品，我想参加比赛。
But there are no competitions for what I do.
但我所做的事情没有竞争。
I mean, a dancer's range is much more than an athlete's, not to the same degree and specialization, but across the board, there's speed, flexibility, maneuverability in air, coordination, flexibility.
我的意思是，舞者的范围比运动员的范围要大得多，程度和专业程度不同，但总的来说，有速度、灵活性、空中的可操作性、协调性和灵活性。
Andrew Huberman: Hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Twyla Tharp: Dancers got all of these components to a very high degree.
Twyla Tharp：舞者高度掌握了所有这些要素。
So, no events for me at the Olympics, but I could make a piece that would be highly athletic, and I wanted to be in the very best possible shape I could be in.
所以，奥运会上没有适合我的项目，但我可以制作一件具有高度运动性的作品，而且我想保持尽可能最好的状态。
Twyla Tharp: So, I decided that the training that was involved in a boxer being in shape, was more extreme than what I was doing with my dancing regimen.
Twyla Tharp：所以，我认为拳击手的体形训练比我的舞蹈训练更加极端。
Twyla Tharp: And that the rope coordination, the stamina being involved, the power coming off the punch, the grounding of the body so that you had a punch, the willingness to take the blow in exchange for the unwillingness to go down.
Twyla Tharp：还有绳索的协调性，所涉及的耐力，出拳时产生的力量，身体的接地，这样你才能受到一拳，愿意接受打击以换取不愿意倒下。
You would not go down.
你不会下去的。
You're not going down.
你不会下去的。
Twyla Tharp: And we don't do that in dance, so I figured, well, I'll go where they do do that.
Twyla Tharp：我们在舞蹈中不会这样做，所以我想，好吧，我会去他们这样做的地方。
So, we were running steps backwards.
所以，我们正在倒退。
This is a very good thing.
这是一件非常好的事情。
And shadow boxing, it's a great, great training format.
太极拳是一种非常棒的训练形式。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I agree.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，我同意。
As a neuroscientist, I have to put a call out against sparring for anyone who's not trying to make it a profession, and maybe even for those that are, that's their choice.
作为一名神经科学家，我必须呼吁那些不想将拳击作为职业的人反对拳击，甚至对于那些想要将拳击作为职业的人来说，这也是他们的选择。
But speed bag work and the visual coordination that's involved is also incredible.
但速度袋的工作和所涉及的视觉协调也令人难以置信。
Near, far, but also just switching from peripheral to central vision is...
近、远，而且只是从周边视觉到中央视觉的切换......
I imagine it improves the brain in many, many ways except for the getting hit in the head part.
我想它可以在很多方面改善大脑，除了头部受到撞击之外。
Twyla Tharp: Yes.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
Twyla Tharp: Well, probably.
特怀拉·撒普：嗯，有可能。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And you're also well known for being quite strong.
Andrew Huberman：你也因坚强而闻名。
Tell us about your deadlift record.
告诉我们您的硬拉记录。
Twyla Tharp: Well, I was training in a real weight gym with competitive weightlifters.
Twyla Tharp：嗯，我在一个真正的举重健身房里与竞技举重运动员一起训练。
And was very serious from the time I was probably in my 50s until mid-60s, say.
从我大概 50 多岁到 60 多岁中期，我的态度都非常严肃。
And that you were nobody in that gym if you didn't do your body weight for three on the bench.
如果你不在替补席上进行三轮自重训练，那么你在健身房里就没什么名气了。
I mean, what are you in here for, right?
我的意思是，你来这里干什么，对吧？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Twyla Tharp: So, it had that kind of requirement to it, which is very encouraging if you want to lift heavy weight.
Twyla Tharp：所以，它有这样的要求，如果你想举重，这是非常令人鼓舞的。
And also snap pneumonia, right?
还有突发性肺炎，对吧？
Which is like, okay.
就像，好吧。
I actually never did that, but the jolt of pulling more weight off the ground than you really can do or you have ever done really does send a rush through the body that is unique.
事实上我从来没有这样做过，但是将比你真正能做的或你曾经做过的更多的重量拉离地面的震动确实会给身体带来一种独特的冲击。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
And what was your personal record?
你的个人记录是什么？
Twyla Tharp: 227.
特怀拉·萨普：227。
Andrew Huberman: 227 deadlift.
安德鲁·休伯曼：227 硬拉。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Awesome.
安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。
Twyla Tharp: Well, I don't know about that.
Twyla Tharp：嗯，我不知道。
I mean, you just do it day in, day out.
我的意思是，你只是日复一日地这样做。
Andrew Huberman: Ah, just awesome.
安德鲁·休伯曼：啊，太棒了。
Twyla Tharp: I don't know, you can't train day in, day out, but training rigorously and continuously for probably eight or 10 years, yeah.
Twyla Tharp：我不知道，你不能日复一日地训练，但严格、持续地训练可能八到十年，是的。
Andrew Huberman: I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, LMNT.
Andrew Huberman：我想稍微休息一下，并向我们的赞助商之一 LMNT 表示感谢。
LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't.
LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您需要的一切，没有您不需要的东西。
That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in the correct ratios, but no sugar.
这意味着电解质、钠、镁和钾的比例都正确，但不含糖。
Proper hydration is critical for brain and body function.
适当的水合作用对于大脑和身体功能至关重要。
Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish your cognitive and physical performance.
即使是轻微程度的脱水也会降低您的认知和身体表现。
It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes.
获得充足的电解质也很重要。
Andrew Huberman: The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, are vital for the functioning of all cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells.
Andrew Huberman：电解质、钠、镁和钾对于体内所有细胞的功能至关重要，尤其是神经元或神经细胞。
Drinking LMNT makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes.
饮用 LMNT 可以轻松确保您获得足够的水分和电解质。
My days tend to start really fast, meaning I have to jump right into work or right into exercise.
我的日子往往开始得很快，这意味着我必须立即投入工作或立即锻炼。
So to make sure that I'm hydrated and I have sufficient electrolytes, when I first wake up in the morning, I drink 16 to 32 ounces of water with an LMNT packet dissolved in it.
因此，为了确保我有足够的水分和足够的电解质，当我早上第一次醒来时，我会喝 16 至 32 盎司的水，其中溶解有 LMNT 包。
Andrew Huberman: I also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes.
Andrew Huberman：我在进行任何体育锻炼时都会饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT，尤其是在炎热的日子里，当我大量出汗并失去水和电解质时。
LMNT has a bunch of great-tasting flavors.
LMNT 有很多美味的口味。
In fact, I love them all.
事实上，我爱他们所有人。
I love the watermelon, the raspberry, the citrus, and I really love the lemonade flavor.
我喜欢西瓜、覆盆子、柑橘，而且我真的很喜欢柠檬水的味道。
So if you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with any purchase.
因此，如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman，购买任意商品即可领取免费的 LMNT 样品包。
Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.
再次强调，请访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman 索取免费样品包。
Andrew Huberman: Several times you've mentioned the barre.
Andrew Huberman：您多次提到了把杆。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I think most of u understand there's a barre along the wall with a mirror sometimes behind it, et cetera.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我想你们大多数人都知道墙上有一个栏杆，栏杆后面有时有一面镜子，等等。
For the uninformed, like for me, what is barre work really about?
对于像我这样不知情的人来说，把杆工作到底是什么？
And could you give us an example of a few...
您能给我们举几个例子吗...
I mean, is it designed to improve flexibility?
我的意思是，它是为了提高灵活性而设计的吗？
Is it for...
难道是为了...
What is this notion of the barre?
杠的概念是什么？
Twyla Tharp: All the above.
特怀拉·撒普：以上都是。
A barre is a set regimen of exercises that are developed to strengthen the structure of the body to basically approach the jumps to gain height in the air for the men, for the women if they're working en pointe, the strength in the legs and the torso to be able to support that weight in the little area down here.
杠铃是一套练习方案，旨在增强身体结构，基本上接近跳跃，以增加男子在空中的高度，对于女子来说，如果他们进行足尖训练，则腿部和躯干的力量能够在下面的小区域支撑该重量。
Twyla Tharp: And so, it's developed essentially from...
Twyla Tharp：所以，它基本上是从……发展而来的。
Barre's evolved, but basically their format is brilliantly designed, and begins with usually plié, the terminology is French, which means to fold.
Barre的演变，但基本上它们的格式设计得非常出色，并且通常以plié开头，该术语是法语，意思是折叠。
So you're folding the body in a plié.
所以你要把身体折叠起来。
You're folding, you're going down, and the positions are first, second, third, fourth, and fifth, okay?
你要弃牌，你要下降，位置是第一、第二、第三、第四和第五，好吗？
Twyla Tharp: First, you have actually one center that comes off of here and here, or you're off to this side, or you're off to that side.
Twyla Tharp：首先，你实际上有一个中心，从这里到这里，或者你在这边，或者你在那边。
But if you're working very rigorously, you're working to develop that single center in first.
但如果你工作非常严格，你就会首先努力开发单一中心。
Twyla Tharp: Second is a much more evolved, kind of higher muscular kind of situation where it's being supported from the torso and the leg muscles more than from the feet.
Twyla Tharp：第二种是一种更加进化、肌肉含量更高的情况，其中躯干和腿部肌肉比脚部更多地支撑它。
The third position is never used because third looks like a bad fifth, so it's just been eliminated, which is kind of too bad, because I actually do use third.
第三个位置从来没有被使用过，因为第三个看起来像一个糟糕的第五个，所以它被淘汰了，这有点太糟糕了，因为我实际上确实使用了第三个。
But not if I think it's at a moment where it could be judgmentally determined, actually, it was an uncrossed fifth.
但如果我认为现在可以通过判断来确定的话，就不会了，实际上，这是一个未交叉的五度。
Oh, dear.
哦，亲爱的。
Twyla Tharp: But in any case.
Twyla Tharp：但无论如何。
So third weight is somewhere between openly distributed and crossed through a single center between the two legs, okay?
所以第三个重量介于公开分布和穿过两条腿之间的单个中心之间，好吗？
This is the fourth, right?
这是第四个吧？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Twyla Tharp: And the fifth, that fourth is closed, so that it's just a reduced, even higher center, okay?
Twyla Tharp：第五个，第四个是封闭的，所以它只是一个缩小的，甚至更高的中心，好吗？
In these positions, first, second, usually not third, first, second, fourth, and fifth, plié.
在这些位置中，第一、第二，通常不是第三、第一、第二、第四和第五，plié。
First, to bend, to fold.
首先，弯曲、折叠。
Next, tendu, to stretch, to reach out from that base.
接下来，tendu，伸展，从那个基础伸出。
Not so far as you're going to fall, but far enough so that you have to evolve and occupy a little bit more space each time you do it.
不是你要掉下来的那么远，而是足够远，以至于你每次跌倒时都必须进化并占据更多的空间。
Twyla Tharp: And you will go first from the tendu to a plié, to a tendu to a plié, and then tendu to a straight leg, which, by drawing in, you're pulling the center even higher.
Twyla Tharp：你将首先从tendu到plié，从tendu到plié，然后tendu到直腿，通过向内收，你将中心拉得更高。
And so, therefore, it comes later in the series of exercises.
因此，它出现在系列练习的后面。
They're designed to evolve, right?
它们被设计来进化，对吗？
Twyla Tharp: After the stretches comes the rond de jambe, one of the few exercises actually that's circular.
Twyla Tharp：伸展运动之后是 rond de jambe，这是为数不多的实际上是圆形的练习之一。
Most of Ballet comes from Fencing.
芭蕾舞大部分来自击剑。
It's very linear.
这是非常线性的。
It's the attack, it's the retreat.
是进攻，也是撤退。
But it doesn't have a whole lot of that going on unless somebody's gotten very ambition, flamboyant with their fencing styles.
但除非有人雄心勃勃、剑术风格华丽，否则不会有那么多事情发生。
Could be, I don't know.
可能是，我不知道。
Twyla Tharp: But in any case, rond de jambe is the circling of the leg from a full fourth forward all the way to an open second, all the way to a full fourth back, all the way back to your second, all the way back to your fourth forward and down.
Twyla Tharp：但无论如何，rond de jambe 是腿从第四个前锋一直到空位第二个，一直到第四个后卫，一直回到你的第二个，一直回到你的第四个前锋和向下的腿的旋转。
Full rotation.
全旋转。
Both sides, by the way.
顺便说一句，双方。
Twyla Tharp: You're always reversing, even the ones that are in a symmetrical position, you still reverse right and left because, as I'm sure you're well aware, right and left occupy your body all the time and are constantly arguing with one another.
Twyla Tharp：你总是在反转，即使是处于对称位置的，你仍然会左右反转，因为我相信你很清楚，右和左一直占据着你的身体，并且不断地互相争吵。
We have an interior conflict going on that makes almost anything else in life impossible.
我们内心的冲突正在发生，这使得生活中几乎任何其他事情都变得不可能。
But so we have right and left, which we're always trying to balance, okay?
但我们也有左右之分，我们一直在努力平衡，好吗？
Twyla Tharp: After rond de jambe, you can have petit battement, which is little throws.
Twyla Tharp：在 rond de jambe 之后，你可以吃 petit battement，即小投掷。
Little throws.
小投掷。
So from your fifth or from your first, you're reaching quickly out, little darting movements, right?
所以从第五次或第一次开始，你就会快速伸出手，做一些小飞镖动作，对吗？
Then you can have frappé, which is to beat.
然后你可以喝frappé，也就是打发。
Frappé.
冰沙。
And so from the ankle, it'll be a flexed foot that extends, boom, and boom.
因此，从脚踝开始，这将是一只弯曲的脚，不断伸展，轰隆隆。
Twyla Tharp: And all of this is about developing relevé, to lift, to relevé, right?
Twyla Tharp：所有这一切都是为了发展相关性、提升、相关性，对吧？
Up to the metatarsal as high as you can get, pulling up through all of this, relevé.
直到跖骨尽可能高，通过所有这些向上拉，相关。
And this develops the strength that you need to jump because from the plié down, you're going to drive up.
这会增强你跳跃所需的力量，因为从 plié 向下，你将向上推动。
And the more power you have down here, the more you can get up.
你在这里拥有的力量越多，你站起来的能力就越强。
Twyla Tharp: That little extra eighth of an inch counts, okay?
Twyla Tharp：那额外的八分之一英寸很重要，好吗？
So frappé.
所以冰沙。
After frappé is grand battement, the big battement, the big throw, all the way up and down.
冰沙之后是大击球，大击球，大投掷，一路上上下下。
But not all the way up, changing the angle of the hip so that the rotation is going to alter the line.
但不是一直向上，改变臀部的角度，这样旋转就会改变路线。
Holding the hip straight through, up.
保持臀部伸直，向上。
E up.
E 向上。
E up.
E 向上。
Twyla Tharp: Either through fourth, or through second, or through arabesque and back.
Twyla Tharp：要么通过第四，要么通过第二，或者通过阿拉伯式花纹和后面。
Those are the fundamentals.
这些是基础。
Now, if you're Merce Cunningham, you can operate in all of the interstices through all of that.
现在，如果你是 Merce Cunningham，你就可以在所有的间隙中进行操作。
But you still have the regulation of the body's map, and that's what the ballet has already done.
但你仍然有身体地图的调节，这就是芭蕾舞已经做到的。
Andrew Huberman: Amazing.
安德鲁·休伯曼：太棒了。
Twyla Tharp: Not amazing, just very highly evolved in terms of how to control movement, in terms of strengthening and developing the body.
Twyla Tharp：并不令人惊奇，只是在如何控制运动、加强和发展身体方面非常先进。
Andrew Huberman: Did the people that developed this care about the underlying physiology, or they just...
Andrew Huberman：开发这种技术的人是否关心潜在的生理学，或者他们只是......
And I'm not saying they should, but it seems like an incredible intuition, at least, that they came up with it.
我并不是说他们应该这么做，但至少他们想出这个主意似乎是一种令人难以置信的直觉。
Twyla Tharp: You'll forgive me for saying something stupid like this.
Twyla Tharp：你会原谅我说了这样蠢的话。
The body is very smart, and one of my problems has always been, what knows what first?
身体非常聪明，而我的问题之一一直是，什么先知道什么？
Okay.
好的。
Does the body already get it, brain, and we're trying to educate you?
大脑，身体已经明白了吗？我们正在努力教育你吗？
Or is it the brain telling the body what to do?
或者是大脑告诉身体该做什么？
In the case of the classical technique, I think it's actually the body that feels that it could get a little higher if only its rotation were a little more open.
就经典技术而言，我认为实际上是身体感觉只要其旋转更开放一点，它就可以变得更高一点。
Twyla Tharp: So it urges that "ugh" and that "mwah." I don't think the brain is going, "Well, you know what?
Twyla Tharp：所以它催促说“呃”和“姆哇”。我不认为大脑会说：“好吧，你知道吗？
If you actually could open that leg out, you'd go higher." And you're going, "Brain, I don't know about that.
如果你真的能把那条腿张开，你就会走得更高。”你会说：“大脑，我不知道这一点。
What does that mean?" You don't know what it means.
那是什么意思？”你不知道这意味着什么。
The body knows what that means.
身体知道这意味着什么。
Andrew Huberman: I've heard it said we think that we're a brain with a body, but perhaps we were a body that later got a brain.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我听说我们认为我们是一个有身体的大脑，但也许我们是一个后来有了大脑的身体。
Twyla Tharp: There are certain sophisticated movements, rhythms, and so forth.
Twyla Tharp：有一些复杂的动作、节奏等等。
I mean, for example, a great composer is a great mathematician, right?
我的意思是，例如，一位伟大的作曲家也是一位伟大的数学家，对吧？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Twyla Tharp: And the indications and the divisions of time I would accept as coming particularly because of how you see the notation and how the note can be subdivided.
Twyla Tharp：我会接受指示和时间划分，特别是因为你如何看待符号以及如何细分音符。
It's a very visual thing.
这是一个非常直观的事情。
Once you're into the eye, you're into the brain.
一旦你进入了眼睛，你就进入了大脑。
I mean, it's like, do you know what I'm saying?
我的意思是，就像，你知道我在说什么吗？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Twyla Tharp: This is more about the body, and this, how the toes are going about its business down here, are very much involved about the body.
Twyla Tharp：这更多的是关于身体，而脚趾在这里如何发挥作用，与身体有很大关系。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Thinking sometimes is really overrated.
思考有时候真的被高估了。
Twyla Tharp: For sure.
特怀拉·萨普：当然。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
As human old world primates, which we got a bunch more machinery up front in the prefrontal cortex, which let us think and plan and reflect and strategize a lot more.
作为人类旧世界的灵长类动物，我们在前额叶皮层的前端有更多的机器，这让我们能够思考、计划、反思和制定更多的策略。
Also allowed humans to do bad things a lot more, trickery, and things like that, but also to plan really incredible, wonderful things.
也让人类做更多的坏事、诡计之类的事情，而且还可以策划出真正令人难以置信、美妙的事情。
Andrew Huberman: But I do think in many ways, it was at the expense of some of the machinery involved in these...
安德鲁·休伯曼：但我确实认为在很多方面，这是以牺牲一些涉及这些的机器为代价的……
I hate using the language lower.
我讨厌使用低级语言。
Let's just say more fundamental intuition, right?
我们就说更基本的直觉吧？
I don't want to give too many anecdotes, but years ago, I developed an obsession with comparative neurology.
我不想透露太多轶事，但几年前，我对比较神经学产生了痴迷。
There's this beautiful journal, it's hundreds of years old, called "The Journal of Comparative Neurology."
有一本漂亮的杂志，它有数百年的历史，叫做“比较神经学杂志”。
Andrew Huberman: I was fortunate enough to participate with that journal, but for a while, reviewing these papers, which, for modern science, people don't really care about these papers.
Andrew Huberman：我很幸运能够参与那个期刊，但是有一段时间，审阅这些论文，对于现代科学来说，人们并不真正关心这些论文。
They're like, "What is the cerebellar vermis shape of the Atlas turtle?" I don't even know if there's an Atlas turtle, but I guess we were talking about Teddy Atlas.
他们就像，“阿特拉斯龟的小脑蚓部形状是什么？”我什至不知道是否有阿特拉斯海龟，但我想我们正在谈论泰迪阿特拉斯。
Of the whatever, right?
无论如何，对吧？
Of the two-toed, three-toed sloth, whatever all these weird species.
二趾树懒、三趾树懒，不管这些奇怪的物种。
Andrew Huberman: But no single paper teaches you that much, except about this really arcane thing about the mallard duck hypothalamus or something.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但是除了关于野鸭下丘脑或其他东西的这个非常神秘的事情之外，没有一篇论文能教给你这么多。
I'm sure that paper's in there, by the way.
顺便说一句，我确信那张纸就在那里。
But when you start comparing the nervous systems of these different animals and the way they move and the way they think, because there are certainly papers about humans in there, you start getting emergent fundamentals.
但是，当你开始比较这些不同动物的神经系统以及它们的移动方式和思维方式时，因为其中肯定有关于人类的论文，你就会开始获得新兴的基础知识。
Andrew Huberman: You go, "Oh, my goodness," once the forebrain got bigger, the cerebellum got a little smaller in this one area, and evolution starts to make a lot more sense.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你会说，“哦，天哪”，一旦前脑变大，小脑在这一区域变小，进化就开始变得更有意义。
But evolution at the level of things like we're talking about today, movement and communication.
但在我们今天谈论的事物层面上的进化，运动和交流。
And it leaves you with this question, which is a lot of the reason you're here today is, I think we all really want to understand, even if we don't know that we want to understand.
这给你们留下了这个问题，这就是你们今天在这里的很多原因，我认为我们都真的想理解，即使我们不知道我们想理解。
Andrew Huberman: What are we really here to do?
Andrew Huberman：我们来这里到底是为了做什么？
What are we good at?
我们擅长什么？
How do we tap into these other aspects of ourselves?
我们如何利用自己的其他方面？
Twyla Tharp: When you talk about the brain developing in different areas to different degrees, I sometimes wonder about, and I mean to be neither naive nor romantic here, the morality of the body.
Twyla Tharp：当你谈论大脑不同区域不同程度的发育时，我有时会想知道身体的道德，我的意思是在这里既不天真也不浪漫。
And if the people who run our governments and who design our social systems had a sense on a daily basis of preserving and protecting and honoring their physical bodies, if their brain would be allowed to concoct some of the schemata that then tell bodies everywhere what they're going to be doing.
如果那些管理我们政府和设计我们社会制度的人们每天都有维护、保护和尊重他们的身体的意识，如果他们的大脑被允许编造一些图式，然后告诉世界各地的身体他们将要做什么。
Andrew Huberman: Tell me more.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：告诉我更多。
I think I understand.
我想我明白了。
I do believe that taking care of the body and one's health first is fundamental.
我确实相信，首先照顾好身体和健康是根本。
Anyone that's lost their health for any amount of time understands what I'm talking about.
任何失去健康一段时间的人都明白我在说什么。
But we don't tend to do that.
但我们不倾向于这样做。
We prioritize the brain a lot without understanding that it exists in this whole context of the body.
我们非常重视大脑，却不了解它存在于身体的整个环境中。
Twyla Tharp: It's not just health.
Twyla Tharp：这不仅仅是健康问题。
It's propriety and excellence.
这是礼节和卓越。
Who wants to nurture and encourage the body to realize its full potential that it was gifted with when it was born?
谁想要培育和鼓励身体充分发挥其与生俱来的潜力？
Andrew Huberman: Let's say you and I were in charge of education.
安德鲁·休伯曼：假设你和我负责教育。
Twyla Tharp: Okay.
特怀拉·撒普：好的。
Andrew Huberman: Do you think kids, teenagers, maybe even young adults, and older, should all do something akin to gymnastics?
安德鲁·休伯曼：你认为孩子、青少年，甚至年轻人和老年人都应该做一些类似于体操的事情吗？
Twyla Tharp: It's an interesting thought.
Twyla Tharp：这是一个有趣的想法。
Which one?
哪一个？
I mean, I respect gymnastics a lot.
我的意思是，我非常尊重体操。
I get dancers sometimes who are not ballet-trained but who are gymnastically trained, and they're courageous in a different way.
有时我遇到的舞者没有接受过芭蕾舞训练，但接受过体操训练，他们以不同的方式勇敢。
They have a different center, but they have a willingness to throw through space that a dancer they're not trained in the ballet to throw.
他们有不同的中心，但他们愿意将未经芭蕾舞训练的舞者扔出的空间抛向空中。
There are moments that you dart forward, but they're very restricted, whereas a gymnast is continuously comfortable with a kind of spatial explosion, which is a beautiful thing.
有些时候你会向前冲，但它们非常有限，而体操运动员却能持续地适应一种空间爆炸，这是一件美妙的事情。
Andrew Huberman: Should there be a policy that every young person needs to do a form of movement that encompasses a lot of different tempos and some jumping, some rolling, some stretching?
安德鲁·胡伯曼：是否应该制定一项政策，要求每个年轻人都需要进行一种包含多种不同节奏、一些跳跃、一些滚动、一些伸展的运动形式？
Because we tend to specialize in sports very early, or people decide they're no good at sports or the arts.
因为我们很早就倾向于专注于体育运动，或者人们认为自己不擅长体育或艺术。
Twyla Tharp: No, no, they're not allowed to do that.
Twyla Tharp：不，不，他们不被允许这样做。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Twyla Tharp: Sorry.
特怀拉·撒普：抱歉。
Something they've got to find that they're good enough at to encourage themselves to respect themselves, otherwise, they quit.
他们必须找到自己足够擅长的事情来鼓励自己尊重自己，否则他们就会放弃。
Andrew Huberman: I will interrupt you here just to say that I think this brings us back to your early development and expectations on people, on kids, and adults, in other words, standards.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我想在这里打断你，我认为这让我们回到了你对人、孩子和成人的早期发展和期望，换句话说，标准。
I heard somebody say something really interesting recently, that was, it used to be, now I'm sounding like an...
最近我听到有人说了一件很有趣的事，那就是，以前是这样，现在我听起来像一个……
I am 50, it used to be that there were pretty high standards set on all of us.
我今年 50 岁了，过去对我们所有人都有很高的标准。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
Twyla Tharp: Mm-hmm.
特怀拉·撒普：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Whether or not we got a lot of love and support depended on the household, but the standards were always high.
Andrew Huberman：我们是否得到很多爱和支持取决于家庭，但标准总是很高。
There seems to be a period of time in which there was a lot more love and support, some people will disagree with me, but maybe standards weren't held as in high regard.
似乎有一段时间，有更多的爱和支持，有些人会不同意我的观点，但也许标准没有得到高度重视。
Of course, it varies by family, varies by circumstance.
当然，这因家庭而异，因情况而异。
But I think ideally we get back to a point where standards are high for everyone.
但我认为理想情况下，我们会回到对每个人都实行高标准的状态。
Like etiquette, God forbid.
就像礼仪一样，上帝禁止。
Not going to the movies in your pajamas, for instance.
例如，不要穿着睡衣去看电影。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Twyla Tharp: Not just etiquette but also behavior, which group, social dance, whether it's ballroom or square dance, there are rules and regulations, and there are ways that you know that you can work that are going to respect the traffic pattern, if nothing else, and that's going to transfer to how you drive a car.
Twyla Tharp：不仅是礼仪，还有行为，哪个团体、社交舞，无论是舞厅舞还是广场舞，都有规则和规定，而且你知道有一些工作方式可以尊重交通模式，如果没有其他的话，这将转移到你如何驾驶汽车上。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Twyla Tharp: And this gets established early and deeply in a young person, and we're talking here, oh, I don't know, second grader, third graders.
Twyla Tharp：这在年轻人中很早就建立起来了，我们在这里谈论，哦，我不知道，二年级学生，三年级学生。
I mean, as much as I make light of my mother, and I don't make light of her at all, but sometimes feel challenged by the education that I received, it was not a bad education.
我的意思是，尽管我很轻视我的母亲，而且我根本不轻视她，但有时我会因我所接受的教育而感到挑战，但这并不是一种糟糕的教育。
It was across the boards.
这是全面的。
It was very difficult for me societally.
社交对我来说非常困难。
Twyla Tharp: But I was grounded in music, I was grounded in movement, I was grounded in these different forms of community activity, including string quartets.
Twyla Tharp：但我植根于音乐，我植根于运动，我植根于这些不同形式的社区活动，包括弦乐四重奏。
I was grounded in the family-owned Foothill Drive-In Theater between Rialto and Fontana, okay?
我被困在里亚托和丰塔纳之间家族经营的山麓汽车剧院里，好吗？
Twyla Tharp: I grew up, from the time I was eight until I went to college, watching a screen and getting myself into the snack bar when there would be a run on hot dogs because it was really boring up here, and I saw boring come, get to the snack bar, sell hot dogs, okay?
Twyla Tharp：我从小到大，从八岁到上大学，当热狗抢购时，我看着屏幕，然后走进小吃店，因为这里真的很无聊，我看到无聊来了，去小吃店，卖热狗，好吗？
Plus, it was a place where the speakers often didn't work.
另外，这个地方扬声器经常不起作用。
There were a lot of cars.
有很多车。
600 cars.
600辆车。
It was a big, big movie house, okay?
那是一个很大很大的电影院，好吗？
And a big screen.
还有一个大屏幕。
And so I learned to watch action without sound.
所以我学会了在没有声音的情况下观看动作。
Twyla Tharp: And I learned to watch movement and what communicated without language.
Twyla Tharp：我学会了观察动作以及无语言交流的内容。
Andrew Huberman: "It's incredible you're saying this." One of the things that I listed and wanted to talk to you about is this concept of wordlessness.
安德鲁·休伯曼：“你这么说真是令人难以置信。”我列出并想与你们谈论的事情之一就是无言的概念。
A few years ago, I started practicing something because someone said, "You should try this.
几年前，我开始练习一些东西，因为有人说：“你应该尝试一下。
You should try to walk down the street and just feel what's going on, and try not to get into a verbal dialogue about it.
你应该试着走在街上，感受正在发生的事情，尽量不要进行口头对话。
Just experience life through the lens of what it must be like to be some other species of animal."
只要通过成为其他动物物种的视角来体验生活就可以了。”
Andrew Huberman: And this might sound silly to people, but it's an incredible portal into how limited our experience of things normally is.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这对人们来说可能听起来很愚蠢，但它是一个令人难以置信的门户，让我们了解我们通常对事物的体验是多么有限。
And maybe for some people, they're always in wordlessness, and they need to get more into words.
也许对于有些人来说，他们总是处于无言的状态，他们需要更多地用语言表达。
Andrew Huberman: But it sounds like you had an incredible upbringing.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但听起来你的成长经历令人难以置信。
First of all, you were taught to be hardworking.
首先，你被教导要勤奋。
I mean, I think one can't overemphasize how, I mean, hard work is awesome and because it's a super skill for anything you encounter, right?
我的意思是，我认为人们怎么强调都不为过，我的意思是，努力工作是很棒的，因为它对于你遇到的任何事情都是一种超级技能，对吧？
But watching the movies without sound, that's incredible.
但在没有声音的情况下看电影，那就太不可思议了。
Twyla Tharp: Well, even more, I had twin brothers and a sister who was born three days before they were a year old, so essentially they were triplets.
Twyla Tharp：嗯，更重要的是，我有双胞胎兄弟和一个妹妹，他们在一岁前三天出生，所以本质上他们是三胞胎。
And my mother gave up and started feeding them all with the same spoon and put them in the same room.
我妈妈放弃了，开始用同一把勺子喂它们，然后把它们放在同一个房间里。
And they developed an idiolect, which happens with, you probably know this, a certain percentage of twins.
他们发展出了一种本能，这种情况发生在一定比例的双胞胎身上，你可能知道这一点。
Twyla Tharp: A language, before they learn to speak English, they evolve because they're so close to one another all the time, and it's a guttural syllabic form of communication.
Twyla Tharp：一种语言，在他们学会说英语之前，他们就进化了，因为他们一直彼此如此接近，而且这是一种喉音音节形式的交流。
I could speak it, but I could certainly understand it.
我会说，但我当然能理解。
My parents could not understand it nor speak it, so I became the family translator.
我的父母听不懂也不会说，所以我成了家庭翻译。
Andrew Huberman: Hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Twyla Tharp: So from day one, I'm observing and serving the audience.
Twyla Tharp：所以从第一天起，我就在观察并为观众服务。
Andrew Huberman: I love it.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我喜欢它。
Twyla Tharp: And it's non-verbal.
Twyla Tharp：而且它是非语言的。
Andrew Huberman: This is wild.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这太疯狂了。
I'm close friends with a pair of identical twins, and they tell this story from their childhood, where one walks in and goes up to the toast of the other one, they're women now, they were little girls then, and takes her fingers and goes like this over the toast.
我是一对同卵双胞胎的好朋友，他们从小就讲这个故事，其中一个走进去，走向另一个的吐司，他们现在是女人，那时他们还是小女孩，然后牵着她的手指，像这样走到吐司上。
Twyla Tharp: Right.
特怀拉·撒普：对。
Andrew Huberman: To this day, the other one won't eat that type of toast.
安德鲁·休伯曼：直到今天，另一个人都不会吃那种吐司。
Andrew Huberman: But it wasn't like, "Oh, this is bad." They were just, something was communicated in the movement, and to this day, will not touch that type of toast.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但这并不是说，“哦，这很糟糕。”他们只是，在运动中传达了一些东西，直到今天，他们还不会碰那种类型的吐司。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah, yeah.
特怀拉·萨普：是的，是的。
Twyla Tharp: Right.
特怀拉·撒普：对。
Andrew Huberman: And it's so funny, and they have tons of stories about this, that they can communicate without words.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这太有趣了，他们有很多关于这方面的故事，他们可以不用语言进行交流。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah, yeah.
特怀拉·萨普：是的，是的。
Twyla Tharp: Right.
特怀拉·撒普：对。
And a lot of it was sign...
而且很多都是标志...
I don't remember a lot of this was bread and butter.
我不记得很多都是面包和黄油。
And so very early, I got the idea that movement communicates.
所以很早就，我有了运动可以交流的想法。
Who needs all this garble on top, and your brain has got it, what is that, right or left?
谁需要所有这些乱码在上面，而你的大脑已经得到了它，那是什么，右还是左？
That's going to be that side.
那将是那一边。
It's going to be right.
一切都会正确的。
You don't need to translate it into language to understand what the movement is asking for.
您无需将其翻译成语言即可了解该运动的要求。
Andrew Huberman: But unlike so many artists and creatives, the world is very fortunate that you were asked to be a translator because you don't exist in some...
安德鲁·休伯曼：但与许多艺术家和创意人士不同的是，这个世界非常幸运，你被邀请担任翻译，因为你不存在于某些......
I could think of names here, but I don't want to insult anyone.
我可以在这里想到名字，但我不想侮辱任何人。
There are some artists that are genuinely weird to the rest of us because we can't understand them.
有些艺术家对我们其他人来说真的很奇怪，因为我们无法理解他们。
Now, they're not necessarily weird, they're just different.
现在，它们并不一定奇怪，它们只是不同。
Andrew Huberman: But I have to imagine there are probably many, many incredible creatives whose work we never hear or see because there's no one there to translate it for them, and they certainly can't do it for themselves.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但我不得不想象，可能有很多很多令人难以置信的创意人员，他们的作品我们从未听说过或见过，因为没有人为他们翻译，而且他们当然无法自己完成。
You have to have a certain amount of fluency in the world of business, in the world of being able to communicate with words, otherwise, your work doesn't get out there, right?
在商业世界中，在能够用语言交流的世界中，你必须有一定的流利程度，否则，你的工作就无法进行，对吗？
Maybe that's why there's so few people that really sit where they do in their craft.
也许这就是为什么很少有人真正坐在自己的手艺上。
Twyla Tharp: I think that a word here is "objectivity." That in doing work, there are moments where you have to get outside that work, and you have to look at it as an outsider.
Twyla Tharp：我认为这里有一个词是“客观性”。在工作中，有时你必须跳出工作范围，并且必须以局外人的身份来看待它。
Andrew Huberman: Hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
How do you do that?
你是怎么做到的？
Do you film it and watch?
你会拍摄并观看吗？
Twyla Tharp: I do it by pulling myself out of the action.
Twyla Tharp：我通过将自己从行动中抽离出来来做到这一点。
I mean, there were times when I danced, right?
我的意思是，有时候我跳舞，对吧？
And I danced inside as well as trying to get outside.
我在里面跳舞，也试图出去。
This is genuinely a way to become extremely neurotic, and it's a very difficult task.
这确实是一种变得极度神经质的方式，而且是一项非常困难的任务。
In some ways, it's very rewarding because the whole thing evolves from you, and plus, you're the jury.
在某些方面，这是非常有价值的，因为整个事情都是由你演变而来，而且你是陪审团。
Twyla Tharp: You can't maintain it for very long, and anybody who makes something wants to have the capacity to be unemotional about it, get back, forget how you feel about it.
Twyla Tharp：你无法维持它很长时间，任何制造某物的人都希望有能力对其不带感情，回来，忘记你对它的感受。
What does it say to you?
它对你说什么？
Twyla Tharp: You, in a way, become your own translator.
Twyla Tharp：在某种程度上，你成为了自己的翻译。
Does this read?
这读得懂吗？
Andrew Huberman: You said something really, really useful, I think, about critics in your book.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为，关于你书中的批评者，你说了一些非常非常有用的事情。
You said that the good ones, the honest ones, the ones that aren't just trying to get some clickbait or get someone to read their story so they can get their couple thousand bucks so they can make rent that month.
你说那些好人，那些诚实的人，那些不只是想获得一些点击诱饵或让别人读他们的故事，这样他们就可以获得几千美元，这样他们就可以在那个月交房租的人。
The really good critics keep us honest about who we're supposed to be as creators.
真正优秀的批评家让我们诚实地认识到我们作为创造者应该成为什么样的人。
Andrew Huberman: Now, that makes it sound like people who aren't creating stuff that's being critiqued out in the world don't have anything to learn from what you're about to say.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：现在，这听起来好像那些没有创造出受到世界批评的东西的人没有从你要说的内容中学到任何东西。
But I would argue that from the very beginning, when we start to create anything, a short story, a poem, even if we're just daydreaming about what we might create, it's impossible to not get into the "How is this going to land?
但我认为，从一开始，当我们开始创作任何东西，一个短篇小说，一首诗，即使我们只是在幻想我们可能创造什么，也不可能不陷入“这将如何落地？
What are people going to think?"
人们会怎么想？”
Andrew Huberman: So learning how to hold critique is critical to the creative process, even if journalists aren't eventually writing about your work.
Andrew Huberman：因此，学习如何进行批评对于创作过程至关重要，即使记者最终不会报道您的作品。
Andrew Huberman: How do you work with the inner critic, which is really about outer critics, let's be honest.
安德鲁·休伯曼：老实说，你如何与内部批评家合作，这实际上是关于外部批评家的。
How do you work with that, and what's your relationship to that?
你是如何处理这个问题的？你与它有什么关系？
Twyla Tharp: This is very, very difficult because you have to love what you're doing.
Twyla Tharp：这非常非常困难，因为你必须热爱你正在做的事情。
Anything that's going to be really meaningful, there has to be an extraordinary degree of love.
任何真正有意义的事情都必须有非凡程度的爱。
And we do refer in my office to the child of that work.
我们在我的办公室里确实提到了那项工作的孩子。
Each dance, in a way, is your gift, and it's your child, and somebody's out here, and they're going to slit its throat.
从某种程度上来说，每支舞蹈都是你的礼物，它是你的孩子，而有人在这里，他们会割断它的喉咙。
How are you supposed to feel about that?
你对此有何感想？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Twyla Tharp: Also, because what we do is very, very personal.
Twyla Tharp：另外，因为我们所做的事情非常非常个人化。
Musicians translate it into sound.
音乐家将其转化为声音。
There's a certain distancing from them personally.
个人与他们之间存在着一定的距离。
We're very personal.
我们非常有个性。
You speak bad of my dance, you speak bad of my body.
你说我的舞蹈坏话，你说我的身体坏话。
Andrew Huberman: Mm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Twyla Tharp: That don't go down so well, right?
Twyla Tharp：效果不太好，对吧？
So it's difficult to process the exterior critic's word, and on the other hand, as I said, one still has to, even though you love the thing, you got to...
因此，很难接受外部批评者的话，另一方面，正如我所说，人们仍然必须这样做，即使你喜欢这个东西，你也必须......
I mean, long ago, my trainer actually had two huge wolfhounds, and I made the mistake one day of criticizing one of them.
我的意思是，很久以前，我的训练师实际上有两只巨大的猎狼犬，有一天我犯了一个错误，批评了其中一只。
I mean, never criticize a guy's dog, okay?
我的意思是，永远不要批评一个人的狗，好吗？
Andrew Huberman: This is true.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这是真的。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
You can criticize the child, but not the dog, all right?
你可以批评孩子，但不能批评狗，好吗？
Andrew Huberman: Wolfhounds are beautiful animals.
安德鲁·休伯曼：猎狼犬是美丽的动物。
Twyla Tharp: They are.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Very majestic animals.
安德鲁·休伯曼：非常雄伟的动物。
Twyla Tharp: Yes, they had to.
Twyla Tharp：是的，他们必须这样做。
But so yeah, there you are.
但是，是的，你就在那里。
This critic just called your dog a bad name.
这位评论家刚刚骂了你的狗一个坏名声。
And okay, maybe your dog has got only three legs and then six months to live.
好吧，也许你的狗只有三条腿，还能活六个月。
I'm being cruel, but am I?
我很残忍，但我是吗？
I'm being realistic.
我很现实。
Your dog has three legs and six months to live.
你的狗有三条腿，还能活六个月。
Andrew Huberman: Well, that's not criticism.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯，这不是批评。
That's an observation.
这是一个观察。
Twyla Tharp: Observation.
特怀拉·萨普：观察。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah, but it comes across because it's less than perfect.
Twyla Tharp：是的，但它给人的印象是因为它并不完美。
Andrew Huberman: Mm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Twyla Tharp: So you see, it's a difficult arena.
Twyla Tharp：所以你看，这是一个困难的竞技场。
There's no single answer.
没有单一的答案。
It's like neon.
就像霓虹灯一样。
You've got to shift on, shift off, shift on, shift off.
你必须换档，换档，换档，换档。
Twyla Tharp: Is it crazy?
特怀拉·撒普：这疯了吗？
A little.
一点。
Andrew Huberman: I'm excited to share that Mateína, the yerba mate drink I helped create, is now available at Whole Foods stores nationwide.
Andrew Huberman：我很高兴与大家分享，我帮助创造的马黛茶饮料 Mateína 现已在全国 Whole Foods 商店出售。
Longtime listeners of this podcast know that yerba mate is my preferred caffeine source.
这个播客的长期听众都知道马黛茶是我最喜欢的咖啡因来源。
It provides smooth energy without giving you the jitters, and it has a lot of other potential benefits, including helping to regulate your blood sugar, improving digestion, mild appetite suppression, and much more.
它提供平稳的能量，不会让您感到紧张，而且它还有很多其他潜在的好处，包括帮助调节血糖、改善消化、轻度抑制食欲等等。
Mateína is my absolute favorite of all the yerba mate brands out there, and I've tried them all.
在所有马黛茶品牌中，Mateína 绝对是我最喜欢的，而且我都尝试过。
Andrew Huberman: Given my love for Mateína, I decided to become a part-owner in the business, and I helped them create their new line of products, which are all entirely zero-sugar.
Andrew Huberman：鉴于我对 Mateína 的热爱，我决定成为该公司的股东，并帮助他们创建了完全零糖的新产品系列。
These zero-sugar cold-brew Mateína flavors are fantastic.
这些零糖冷萃马泰纳口味非常棒。
I drink at least three cans of them every single day.
我每天至少喝三罐。
You'll often see them on the table during my podcast recordings.
在我录制播客时，您经常会在桌子上看到它们。
I absolutely love the product, and I'm proud to now have it sold at Whole Foods.
我非常喜欢这个产品，我很自豪现在它在全食超市出售。
So check out Mateína at Whole Foods stores nationwide.
因此，请前往全国 Whole Foods 商店购买 Mateína。
It's cold-brewed with the absolute best ingredients.
它是用绝对最好的原料冷酿的。
It has zero sugar, and it tastes amazing.
它是零糖的，而且味道棒极了。
And if you don't have a Whole Foods near you, you can also buy it online at drinkmateina.com
如果您附近没有 Whole Foods，您也可以在 Drinkmateina.com 上在线购买
Andrew Huberman: Every once in a while, I find myself thinking, "Oh, in the early 2000s, the way art and music and media was, it was better.
Andrew Huberman：每隔一段时间，我就会想，“哦，在 2000 年代初，艺术、音乐和媒体的方式更好。
Growing up in this era." But then I realized that people have probably been saying that sort of thing forever, and that for young people now, I have a niece who just went off to college.
成长在这个时代。”但后来我意识到人们可能一直在说这样的话，对于现在的年轻人来说，我有一个刚刚上大学的侄女。
Andrew Huberman: She's not thinking about how it was back then.
安德鲁·休伯曼：她没有考虑当时的情况。
For her, it's happening now.
对她来说，现在就发生了。
And I think it's hard for us to adapt to the fact that we were young once and now we're less young, and that it's all new for them.
我认为我们很难适应这样一个事实：我们曾经年轻过，现在我们不那么年轻了，这对他们来说都是新的。
Andrew Huberman: And so the question is, and they don't have that frame of reference, so when it comes to critics, when it comes to dance and art, do you see things getting better, worse, or do you just think of it as like, "Oh, it's always been just an evolution?" I have a hard time going, "Oh, we had great music in the '90s.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：所以问题是，他们没有这样的参考框架，所以当谈到评论家时，当谈到舞蹈和艺术时，你会看到事情变得更好、更糟，还是你只是认为，“哦，这一直只是一种演变？”我很难说：“哦，我们在 90 年代有很棒的音乐。
Like, it was awesome music came out in the..."
就像，那是一首很棒的音乐……”
Twyla Tharp: You should have been around in the '70s, man.
Twyla Tharp：你应该在 70 年代左右，伙计。
Andrew Huberman: Exactly.
安德鲁·休伯曼：没错。
That's the point.
这就是重点。
Right.
正确的。
So, for people who are 16, 18 now, they're not thinking that way.
所以，对于现在16、18岁的人来说，他们不会这么想了。
They're thinking, "We got all that music, and there's all this other great music."
他们在想，“我们有所有这些音乐，还有所有其他伟大的音乐。”
Andrew Huberman: So I think the goal perhaps is to just stay open.
Andrew Huberman：所以我认为目标可能是保持开放。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
I think it's not judgmental, it's not good or bad, it's "What can I learn from this?
我认为这不是评判，不是好或坏，而是“我能从中学到什么？
What can I take from this?
我能从中得到什么？
What can I transpose from this to put over here?
我可以从这里转置什么放到这里？
What can I use?" Make everything transactional.
我能用什么？”让一切都变得交易化。
Andrew Huberman: Can you elaborate on that?
安德鲁·休伯曼：你能详细说明一下吗？
Twyla Tharp: No, I like it like that.
Twyla Tharp：不，我喜欢这样。
Andrew Huberman: Full stop.
安德鲁·休伯曼：句号。
Okay.
好的。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
No, transactional, what serves me here?
不，交易性的，我在这里有什么用？
What can I use?
我可以用什么？
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Twyla Tharp: Sometimes "transactional" gets a bad name.
Twyla Tharp：有时“交易型”会名声不佳。
You are trying to use something.
你正在尝试使用某些东西。
Yeah, I'm trying to use something.
是的，我正在尝试使用一些东西。
Andrew Huberman: Well, the whole thing of great artists steal.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯，伟大艺术家的一切都是偷窃。
Nothing is a new idea, this kind of thing.
这种事情没什么新奇的。
Do you believe that?
你相信吗？
Twyla Tharp: Absolutely.
特怀拉·撒普：当然。
To some degree.
在某种程度上。
I mean, that's why it's one of my privileges to work with the life of a composer, if I'm serious about that.
我的意思是，这就是为什么与作曲家的生活一起工作是我的特权之一，如果我是认真的的话。
I worked on "Amadeus," right?
我参与了《艾玛迪斯》，对吗？
So I read all of Mozart's writings, which are voluminous, and looked at every manuscript he had ever touched.
于是我读了莫扎特的全部著作，浩如烟海，看了他接触过的每一篇手稿。
And I was given access to this.
我被允许访问这个。
Why wouldn't you take advantage of that?
你为什么不利用这一点呢？
Andrew Huberman: For the movie "Amadeus?"
安德鲁·休伯曼：为了电影《艾玛迪斯》？
Twyla Tharp: Yeah.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Love that movie.
安德鲁·休伯曼：喜欢那部电影。
Twyla Tharp: Thank you.
特怀拉·撒普：谢谢。
We did too.
我们也这么做了。
Andrew Huberman: Love that movie.
安德鲁·休伯曼：喜欢那部电影。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
Andrew Huberman: The images of the lime being thrown over the body is still imprinted in my mind.
安德鲁·休伯曼：石灰被撒在身上的画面至今仍印在我的脑海中。
Twyla Tharp: Oh, yeah.
特怀拉·撒普：哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman: But it tells you about that era and how little people had.
安德鲁·休伯曼：但它告诉你那个时代以及人们拥有的东西有多么少。
Twyla Tharp: Totally.
特怀拉·萨普：完全可以。
Twyla Tharp: Totally.
特怀拉·萨普：完全可以。
And how much was preserved from the era?
那个时代有多少被保存下来？
We shot in Prague for Vienna.
我们从布拉格到维也纳拍摄。
It was hard working there, still under the regime.
在那里工作很辛苦，仍然在政权统治下。
And that, in a way, put it closer to what Mozart had to deal with, the sort of restrictions that he had.
在某种程度上，这更接近莫扎特必须应对的问题，即他所面临的那种限制。
But the research that went into that picture was enormous.
但对这幅图画的研究是巨大的。
All of the illumination was from candles.
所有的照明都来自蜡烛。
All of the illumination in the candles.
所有的照明都在蜡烛中。
Andrew Huberman: Mm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Twyla Tharp: They used the same beeswax as they had used 200 years before.
Twyla Tharp：他们使用的蜂蜡与 200 年前使用的蜂蜡相同。
All the mechanisms on stage were what were used in the original productions.
舞台上的所有机制都是原版作品中使用的。
And because we shot in the opera house, which had not been updated, in fact, it's one of the ways Milos got back in, was to say, "Okay, we will pay for the reconstruction of the opera house when we're done," and they took him up on it.
因为我们是在歌剧院拍摄的，歌剧院还没有更新，事实上，这是米洛斯回来的方式之一，他说，“好吧，完成后我们会支付歌剧院重建费用”，然后他们就接受了他。
But I was using the same mechanics under the stage that Mozart had.
但我在舞台下使用了与莫扎特相同的机制。
Twyla Tharp: The door that opened into the orchestra was the door he touched when he came in to join the orchestra.
Twyla Tharp：通向管弦乐队的那扇门是他进来加入管弦乐队时触摸的那扇门。
And we had scenes that had live fire.
我们有现场射击的场景。
We were swinging live fire around.
我们正在四处挥舞着实弹。
You don't do this, but we were.
你不这么做，但我们却这么做了。
And out of the floor, there were little holes, and we figured out that those little holes were a special kind of pollen that they put down, and if they lit them, they would send up sparks, and we were doing the sparks from the floor out of the pollen.
地板上有一些小洞，我们发现这些小洞是它们放下的一种特殊的花粉，如果点燃它们，它们就会发出火花，我们正在从花粉的地板上制作火花。
Twyla Tharp: And you had chandeliers coming down that had hundreds of candles, and in between takes, you're shifting all of the candles in 50 chandeliers coming down here before you can do the next take.
Twyla Tharp：你的吊灯上有数百根蜡烛，在两次拍摄之间，你需要将 50 个吊灯中的所有蜡烛移到这里，然后才能进行下一次拍摄。
Meanwhile, you got the clothes that are in here, and there are no gussets.
与此同时，你拿到这里的衣服，而且没有角撑板。
So nobody's arm is going any higher than this.
所以没有人的手臂会比这更高。
You got the men in heels like this.
你让男人穿这样的高跟鞋。
Nobody is running with huge strides.
没有人大步奔跑。
Stuff like that.
诸如此类的事情。
Wow.
哇。
I don't know what to do with that kind of information other than to marvel at human invention.
除了惊叹人类的发明之外，我不知道如何处理此类信息。
Andrew Huberman: We've definitely come a long way.
Andrew Huberman：我们确实已经取得了很大的进步。
Twyla Tharp: I don't know that we've come a long way.
Twyla Tharp：我不知道我们已经走了很长的路。
Things were different, and they maximized their resources.
情况不同了，他们最大限度地利用了资源。
Andrew Huberman: I will say candles are better than white-light LEDs, but that's a topic for another podcast.
Andrew Huberman：我想说蜡烛比白光 LED 更好，但这是另一个播客的主题。
Twyla Tharp: Probably.
特怀拉·撒普：可能吧。
When are we going to do that?
我们什么时候这么做？
Andrew Huberman: Incandescents are better than LEDs.
Andrew Huberman：白炽灯比 LED 更好。
But I'm just thinking about all these candles, and I'm wondering whether or not it was very, very warm to work in that environment.
但我只是想着所有这些蜡烛，我想知道在那种环境下工作是否非常非常温暖。
Twyla Tharp: Sure, it was very, very warm.
Twyla Tharp：当然，天气非常非常温暖。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Twyla Tharp: The people were sweating all the time.
Twyla Tharp：人们一直在出汗。
What do you think the smell was in the 18th century?
你认为 18 世纪的气味是什么？
Very stinky is how smell was in the 18th century.
十八世纪的气味非常臭。
Andrew Huberman: I had no idea what went into the making of that film.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我不知道那部电影的制作过程是怎样的。
Twyla Tharp: It was real.
特怀拉·撒普：这是真的。
Andrew Huberman: A spectacular film.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：一部精彩的电影。
Everyone should see that.
每个人都应该看到这一点。
Twyla Tharp: It was real.
特怀拉·撒普：这是真的。
Andrew Huberman: It'll also give you a window into how psychiatric illness was treated.
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：它还将为您提供一个了解精神疾病如何治疗的窗口。
There's that brutal scene from, I guess, they called them insane asylums.
我猜那是来自他们称之为疯人院的残酷场景。
Twyla Tharp: Yep.
特怀拉·萨普：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And nowadays we probably understand that 95% of those people were probably suffering from things that nice at-home care probably would have resolved.
Andrew Huberman：现在我们可能了解到，其中 95% 的人可能正在遭受一些问题的困扰，而良好的家庭护理可能可以解决这些问题。
Twyla Tharp: Or there's a pill for it.
Twyla Tharp：或者有一种药可以解决这个问题。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Or there's a pill for.
或者有药可以治。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Or a combination of sunlight and pills, and other things.
Andrew Huberman：或者阳光和药物以及其他东西的结合。
Speaking of which, what's your view on modern versus ancient medicine versus the body just being really smart?
说到这里，您对现代医学、古代医学以及身体是否真的聪明有何看法？
Twyla Tharp: I know not much about either ancient or modern medicine.
Twyla Tharp：我对古代或现代医学了解不多。
I'm not sure I'm equipped to have a view on these things.
我不确定我是否有能力对这些事情有看法。
I simply try to stay as close to what is, forgive the word, natural as possible.
我只是尝试尽可能接近自然，原谅这个词。
Twyla Tharp: In terms of eating, I am currently not eating except for this trip, okay?
Twyla Tharp：就吃而言，我目前除了这次旅行之外不吃东西，好吗？
No carbs, no sugar, all right?
没有碳水化合物，没有糖，好吗？
The keto diet, I find to be more manageable.
我发现生酮饮食更容易管理。
I can control it better.
我可以更好地控制它。
I know where my weight is.
我知道我的体重在哪里。
I can feel how close to the bone, where whatawata.
我能感觉到距离骨头有多近，那里多么瓦塔。
I got to hee, haw, haw.
我得嘿嘿嘿嘿。
You can't do that if you're eating a lot of pasta.
如果你吃了很多面食，你就不能这样做。
Andrew Huberman: Mm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Twyla Tharp: And also, I fortunately cannot cook, therefore, I basically eat everything raw.
Twyla Tharp：而且，幸运的是，我不会做饭，因此，我基本上把所有东西都生吃。
I can eat meat raw.
我可以生吃肉。
I certainly eat vegetables raw.
我当然生吃蔬菜。
When I am exaggerating, I can use the oven, okay.
当我夸张的时候，我可以用烤箱，好吧。
I can boil water, but that's about it.
我可以烧水，但仅此而已。
No sauces ever.
从来没有酱汁。
Andrew Huberman: Mm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Twyla Tharp: Nothing decorative.
Twyla Tharp：没有什么装饰性的。
I've often said if there were a pill for food, I'd take it.
我经常说，如果有药丸可以代替食物，我会服用它。
I'm not sure I would because I'm not sure it would have what I needed in it.
我不确定我会这样做，因为我不确定其中是否有我需要的东西。
I'm not sure I'm getting that anyway, but at least I'm making an effort, and I know where it comes from.
无论如何，我不确定我是否得到了这一点，但至少我正在努力，而且我知道它从何而来。
I don't like mystery a lot.
我不太喜欢神秘。
Andrew Huberman: So it sounds like meat, fish, fruits, and vegetables are your staples.
安德鲁·休伯曼：听起来肉、鱼、水果和蔬菜是你的主食。
Twyla Tharp: C'est ça.
Twyla Tharp：这就是。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, likewise.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，同样。
And I think it's funny that nowadays, it makes total sense when we say the carbs and sugar are really the problem in most cases.
我认为有趣的是，如今，当我们说碳水化合物和糖在大多数情况下确实是问题时，这是完全有道理的。
Whereas for years, it felt like the public health space around nutrition was utterly confused.
然而多年来，围绕营养的公共卫生领域似乎完全混乱。
It was like fat is the bad thing, then protein, and then meat is the bad thing.
就好像脂肪是坏事，然后是蛋白质，然后肉是坏事。
I mean, deli meats probably they are not great for us, but healthily sourced.
我的意思是，熟食肉类可能对我们来说不太好，但来源健康。
Twyla Tharp: Terrible.
特怀拉·萨普：太糟糕了。
Twyla Tharp: We went through a period, probably of about a year or even two, where we carb-loaded because we thought we'd have more energy, we'd be stronger.
Twyla Tharp：我们经历了一段时期，可能大约一年甚至两年，我们摄入碳水化合物，因为我们认为我们会有更多的能量，我们会更强壮。
We just got heavier.
我们只是变得更重了。
But anyway, maybe we had a little more power.
但无论如何，也许我们拥有更多的力量。
Andrew Huberman: I have a friend whose daughter is very interested in ballet.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我有一个朋友，他的女儿对芭蕾舞非常感兴趣。
She actually is part of a conservatory that goes up...
她实际上是一所上升的温室的一部分......
They actually live in San Francisco.
他们实际上住在旧金山。
I don't think she's part of the San Francisco Ballet, but there's something adjacent to that.
我不认为她是旧金山芭蕾舞团的一部分，但有一些与之相邻的东西。
And I said, "How, how is that?" Because you hear these stereotypes of it's brutal on young girls as, probably boys as well, but minds about their weight and the training, and it's unhealthy.
我说：“怎么样，怎么样？”因为你听到这些刻板印象，认为这对年轻女孩来说是残酷的，可能对男孩来说也是如此，但要注意她们的体重和训练，这是不健康的。
Andrew Huberman: And he said nowadays they've adjusted for some of that, and they really try and keep a healthier environment.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：他说现在他们已经对此进行了一些调整，并且他们确实在努力保持一个更健康的环境。
What's your view on that?
您对此有何看法？
I mean, standards versus health.
我的意思是，标准与健康。
I mean, this is a topic that spills over into everything.
我的意思是，这是一个涉及到一切的话题。
In science, I used to work 100-hour weeks.
在科学领域，我过去每周工作 100 小时。
100.
100.
I heard there was a guy that worked 101, so I worked 102.
我听说有一个人工作101，所以我工作102。
Then I realized that I couldn't sustain that.
然后我意识到我无法坚持下去。
I'm not suggesting anyone do that, but everyone has a kind of war story from their time.
我并不是建议任何人这样做，但每个人都有自己那个时代的战争故事。
Andrew Huberman: But now there does seem to be more care taken to mental health, physical health.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：但现在似乎确实更加关注心理健康和身体健康。
So how do you balance that in the world of dance, where you want standards to continue to stand or rise, but you also don't want people mentally destroyed?
那么，在舞蹈世界中，你如何平衡这一点，你希望标准继续保持或提高，但你也不希望人们精神上受到摧残？
Twyla Tharp: This is a hard one.
Twyla Tharp：这是一个很难的问题。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Twyla Tharp: There's always going to be a trade-off to some degree.
Twyla Tharp：在某种程度上总是需要权衡。
I mean, the stress of performance is, whether it's athletic performance or dance performance, is extreme.
我的意思是，表演的压力，无论是运动表演还是舞蹈表演，都是极端的。
And unfortunately, it's been my experience that the better the performer, the worse the nerves before.
不幸的是，根据我的经验，表演者越好，之前的紧张感就越严重。
Andrew Huberman: Huh.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Twyla Tharp: Sorry about that.
特怀拉·撒普：对此感到抱歉。
The more intensely important that curtain going up is to that person, the possibility of failure is always there.
升起的帷幕对那个人来说越重要，失败的可能性就总是存在。
And the degree of rehearsing that's going to address that is "Why didn't you do more?" is always the response.
排练的程度将解决“你为什么不多做一点？”始终是回应。
So that is, I'm sorry.
所以，我很抱歉。
It's a reality.
这是现实。
It's a choice.
这是一个选择。
Don't choose that profession.
不要选择那个职业。
Twyla Tharp: We can't make life totally nice.
Twyla Tharp：我们无法让生活变得完全美好。
It is partially what it is.
部分是这样的。
Choose something else.
选择其他东西。
Often, and I'm not alone in this, one hears it often, a parent or a child even will come up, "Can I be a dancer?" I say, "Don't do it.
很多时候，而且我并不孤单，人们经常听到，父母或孩子甚至会问，“我可以成为一名舞者吗？”我说：“别这样做。
Find something else if you possibly can.
如果可能的话，寻找其他东西。
If you can't, be a dancer."
如果你做不到，那就去当一名舞者吧。”
Andrew Huberman: Because you want to set that thick line.
Andrew Huberman：因为你想设置那条粗线。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
And there are other folks who will find their own way to address that line and who will massage that line, and it's part of creativity is addressing those old lines and boundaries, classical, modern.
还有其他人会找到自己的方式来处理这条线，并会按摩这条线，创造力的一部分就是解决那些旧的线和界限，古典的，现代的。
Oy.
哎哟。
Andrew Huberman: It's interesting when you put that barrier, you naturally select for the people that really want it.
Andrew Huberman：有趣的是，当你设置这个障碍时，你自然会选择真正想要它的人。
Twyla Tharp: Yes.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yesterday I had an early morning call with a friend of mine who's a former what they call "Tier 1 SEAL team operator." So he was in the Navy SEALs, but then there's another selection process within it for the Tier 1 or the sort of elite within that already elite community.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：昨天我一大早和我的一个朋友通了电话，他曾是所谓的“一级海豹突击队操作员”。所以他加入了海豹突击队，但是其中还有另一个针对一级或已经是精英社区中的精英的选拔过程。
Andrew Huberman: And he has children, and I said, "Are they interested in military?" He said, "One of them is." And I said, "Is he interested in going to the teams?" And he's like, "He is." And I said, "What are you telling him?" And he said, "I'm telling him not to do it, and he keeps coming back that he wants to do it, and I'm reassured." He keeps telling him, "Don't do it.
安德鲁·休伯曼：他有孩子，我说，“他们对军事感兴趣吗？”他说：“其中之一是。”我说：“他有兴趣加入球队吗？”他说：“他是。”我说：“你要告诉他什么？”他说：“我告诉他不要这样做，但他不断回来表示他想这样做，我就放心了。”他不断地告诉他：“不要这样做。
You're going to hate it.
你会讨厌它的。
It's going to be the worst thing ever." And he keeps coming back, "No, I want to do it.
这将是有史以来最糟糕的事情。”他不断地回来，“不，我想做。
No, I want." So he's convinced now that he actually wants to do it.
不，我想要。”所以他现在确信他真的想这么做。
Twyla Tharp: Well, but unfortunately, telling a kid not to do it is a bait and can just engender, "I want to do it just to prove that you're going to go up against authority." That's not the right reason to select.
特怀拉·撒普：嗯，但不幸的是，告诉孩子不要这样做是一个诱饵，只会导致“我这样做只是为了证明你会反抗权威。”这不是选择的正确理由。
Andrew Huberman: Sure.
安德鲁·休伯曼：当然。
Twyla Tharp: Better to just say, "You got to really, really want to do this.
Twyla Tharp：最好只是说，“你必须非常非常想这样做。
Even more, can't you find something else?" And if they can question it, they don't want to do it enough.
更何况，你就不能找点别的事吗？”如果他们可以质疑这一点，他们就不想做得足够。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
He did add that, "If he feels he likes it more than it sucks," his words, "then he'll be okay."
他确实补充说，“如果他觉得自己喜欢它而不是糟糕的事情，”他的话，“那么他就会没事的。”
Twyla Tharp: I would buy that.
Twyla Tharp：我会买那个。
Andrew Huberman: There's got to be some tilt in the seesaw more towards "I like this more than it sucks."
Andrew Huberman：跷跷板必须向“我更喜欢这个而不是它很糟糕”倾斜。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah, I'd buy that.
Twyla Tharp：是的，我会买。
Andrew Huberman: Hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Twyla Tharp: That's fair.
特怀拉·撒普：这很公平。
Andrew Huberman: And I see a lot of parallels between the communities that you come from and he comes from, frankly.
安德鲁·休伯曼：坦率地说，我看到你和他来自的社区之间有很多相似之处。
Twyla Tharp: Elite is elite.
Twyla Tharp：精英就是精英。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Twyla Tharp: It has a price to pay.
Twyla Tharp：这是要付出代价的。
Andrew Huberman: Do you think nowadays, because of social media and the internet, there's a larger pool of dancers to select from, and talent that gets selected to work with you, for instance, is better because it's just such a bigger pool?
安德鲁·胡伯曼：你认为现在，由于社交媒体和互联网，有更多的舞者可供选择，例如，被选中与你合作的人才会更好，因为它的人才库更大了？
That top 1% reflects an even better 1%?
前 1% 反映了更好的 1%？
Twyla Tharp: It's different because the talent is being trained and challenged in a different way as young people.
Twyla Tharp：这是不同的，因为人才正在以与年轻人不同的方式接受培训和挑战。
In other words, there are now competitive activities for dance.
也就是说，现在有舞蹈的竞技活动了。
I started to say activities, sports, for dance.
我开始说活动、运动、舞蹈。
It's not quite a sport, though it converged, which is fine.
这不完全是一项运动，尽管它融合了，这很好。
But when I was evolving as a dancer, we had very strict borders.
但当我成为一名舞者时，我们有非常严格的界限。
Twyla Tharp: This was tap, this was ballet, this was modern, this is jazz over here.
Twyla Tharp：这是踢踏舞，这是芭蕾舞，这是现代音乐，这是爵士乐。
And you could step across the borders and try out different of these, even acquire knowledge from all of them to become something.
你可以跨越国界，尝试不同的事物，甚至从所有这些事物中获取知识，从而成为某种东西。
But you had to do it on your own, and then you would work to gain acceptance into whatever performing arena.
但你必须自己做，然后你会努力获得任何表演领域的认可。
Twyla Tharp: Now, children, very young children, eight years old, even younger, six-year-old kids, there are competitions for children as dancers or as performers.
Twyla Tharp：现在，孩子们，非常小的孩子，八岁的孩子，甚至更小的，六岁的孩子，都有针对孩子们作为舞者或表演者的比赛。
And this engenders a totally different purpose and performance in the kid.
这给孩子带来了完全不同的目的和表现。
I was not...
我不是...
I'm Buster Keaton, right?
我是巴斯特·基顿，对吧？
I take it on the chin, stoic, down, out, or I make the move, right?
我会泰然自若、坚忍不拔、低头、出手，或者采取行动，对吗？
Twyla Tharp: The kids are out there to sell it, and they're out there to get their points.
Twyla Tharp：孩子们是为了卖东西，他们是为了获得分数。
And it is partially in their technique, but it's also immediately in their manipulation of the audience.
这部分在于他们的技巧，但也在于他们对观众的操纵。
Great.
伟大的。
That's called performing, and maybe you'll be a good actor, but in the meantime, you're short-changing your technique because you're not asking the audience to just gauge you on what you can do physically, but how you can sell it, because you want those points, and so do your parents.
这就是所谓的表演，也许你会成为一名好演员，但与此同时，你在改变你的技巧，因为你不要求观众仅仅根据你的身体能力来衡量你，而是你如何推销它，因为你想要这些分数，你的父母也是如此。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Twyla Tharp: So, these competitions, in a way, are very difficult, and for a long time, I wouldn't work with competition-trained dancers.
Twyla Tharp：所以，从某种程度上来说，这些比赛非常困难，而且很长一段时间，我不会与接受过比赛训练的舞者一起工作。
Now, I find that it's broadened, and that the kids are more sophisticated in the ways that they attack technique for performing, and they're also hardened in a way.
现在，我发现它的范围扩大了，孩子们在攻击表演技巧的方式上更加成熟，而且在某种程度上他们也变得更加坚强。
I can put them in younger.
我可以把它们放在更年轻的位置。
I don't worry, they're going to be nervous.
我不担心，他们会紧张的。
They're not going to be nervous.
他们不会紧张。
Twyla Tharp: They were nervous when they were out here trying to get, you know, a graded 30 points on the whata-whata and the which-which to get the hits for the whata-whata.
Twyla Tharp：当他们在这里试图在“whata-whata”和“which-which”上获得 30 分的评分，以获得“whata-whata”的热门歌曲时，他们很紧张。
And they're no longer nervous about squat.
他们不再对深蹲感到紧张。
So put them in.
所以把它们放进去。
This is great.
这太棒了。
Twyla Tharp: But in the meantime, they are doing it for reasons outside of the thing itself, for what they can gain from it, from their internet hits, from their hunga, their hina, the whata-whata, as opposed to just doing it for the thing itself and taking what comes from it.
Twyla Tharp：但与此同时，他们这样做是出于事物本身之外的原因，是为了他们可以从中获得什么，从他们的互联网点击率，他们的hunga，他们的hina，whata-whata，而不是仅仅为了事物本身而做并从中获得什么。
It's different.
这是不同的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, that extrinsic reward.
Andrew Huberman：是的，就是外在的奖励。
While it's important to keep people moving forward if they want to be a professional, it definitely contaminates the core motivation.
虽然如果人们想成为一名专业人士，让他们不断前进很重要，但这肯定会损害核心动力。
Twyla Tharp: And what the kids will accomplish, because they won't have to do it the hard way.
Twyla Tharp：以及孩子们将实现的目标，因为他们不必以艰难的方式做到这一点。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Twyla Tharp: They'll do it the easy way if it works as well.
Twyla Tharp：如果效果也好的话，他们会用简单的方法来做。
I was always trained to do it the hard way.
我总是被训练以艰难的方式做到这一点。
You can always do it the easy way, train for the hard way.
你总是可以用简单的方法来做，用困难的方法训练。
And I can see that in performers.
我可以在表演者身上看到这一点。
And a performer who has done it the hard way has more range.
而一个通过艰苦的方式做到这一点的表演者会有更大的范围。
And when they work, you're going to be more interested in them because they're making more choices.
当它们发挥作用时，你会对它们更感兴趣，因为它们会做出更多选择。
And an interesting artist is a choice maker.
一个有趣的艺术家是一个选择者。
An interesting performer is always about making choice.
一个有趣的表演者总是要做出选择。
That's what will keep you focused on them.
这会让你专注于他们。
If they're just doing what they think is going to win, you're going, "Really?"
如果他们只是做他们认为会获胜的事情，你会说，“真的吗？”
Andrew Huberman: Listen, I love social media.
Andrew Huberman：听着，我喜欢社交媒体。
I teach on social media.
我在社交媒体上教学。
But the problem with social media as it relates to craft and feedback, et cetera, is that it puts you on a reinforcement schedule of, "You did something yesterday, you can put it out there, and you can immediately get the response." I think there's a sweet spot between practice, mastery, and feedback.
但社交媒体的问题在于，它与工艺和反馈等相关，它会让你处于强化计划中，“你昨天做了某件事，你可以把它放在那里，你可以立即得到回应。”我认为练习、掌握和反馈之间存在一个最佳平衡点。
Animals, of which we are, we adapt to certain contingencies.
我们是动物，我们会适应某些突发事件。
Andrew Huberman: You know, every 48 hours, I expect something back.
Andrew Huberman：你知道，每隔 48 小时，我就会期待一些回报。
Every 72 hours, every...
每72小时，每...
And I always tell people if they want to do a PhD, you got to love the topic, you got to embrace the lifestyle.
我总是告诉人们，如果他们想攻读博士学位，你必须热爱这个主题，你必须拥抱这种生活方式。
But also, if nothing else, it will teach you to work very, very hard for four years to get something.
而且，如果不出意外的话，它也会教会你如何非常非常努力地工作四年才能得到一些东西。
Andrew Huberman: Sometimes there are a couple of publications in there, or more or less, but if nothing else, it will teach you how to work very, very hard for something that only comes to you at the earliest four years from now, which I think is very valuable.
Andrew Huberman：有时那里会有一些出版物，或多或少，但如果没有别的，它会教你如何非常非常努力地工作，而这些东西最早四年后才会出现，我认为这是非常有价值的。
Twyla Tharp: Even four years is like a promise.
Twyla Tharp：即使是四年也像是一个承诺。
You might want to think about working for no reward.
您可能会考虑无报酬地工作。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Twyla Tharp: And after four years, you don't get anything other than the opportunity to continue.
Twyla Tharp：四年后，除了继续工作的机会之外，你什么也得不到。
Andrew Huberman: I love that.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我喜欢这个。
I love that.
我喜欢那个。
My graduate advisor put this into me.
我的研究生导师把这个灌输给我。
We published a paper in Science.
我们在《科学》杂志上发表了一篇论文。
I was so excited, and I said, "We're going to throw a party.
我很兴奋，我说：“我们要举办一个聚会。
We're going to celebrate." And she just laughed, and she was like, "I could buy you a pizza, but I'm not even going to do that." She said something to that extent.
我们要庆祝一下。”她只是笑了，然后说：“我可以给你买个披萨，但我不会那样做。”她说的话已经到了这种程度。
I can't remember the exact words, but I remember what came next.
我不记得具体的话了，但我记得接下来发生了什么。
She said, "You already got the party."
她说：“你已经参加了聚会。”
Twyla Tharp: Yeah, right.
特怀拉·撒普：是的，没错。
Andrew Huberman: And I was like, "You're right.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我当时想，“你是对的。
I loved doing the experiment." And we went on, I think we published close to 10 papers together.
我喜欢做这个实验。”我想我们一起发表了近 10 篇论文。
And when I wasn't thinking about the PhD, in fact, they forced me to take my qualifying exam.
事实上，当我没有考虑博士学位时，他们强迫我参加资格考试。
I didn't want to take it.
我不想接受它。
I just loved doing experiments.
我只是喜欢做实验。
And if you love doing experiments, turns out you publish a lot of papers.
如果你喜欢做实验，结果你会发表很多论文。
Publish a lot of papers; turns out it's easy to get a PhD.
发表大量论文；事实证明，获得博士学位很容易。
Twyla Tharp: Right.
特怀拉·撒普：对。
Exactly.
确切地。
Andrew Huberman: Et cetera.
安德鲁·休伯曼：等等。
Twyla Tharp: You're doing something for the right reasons, not to get something else.
Twyla Tharp：你做某事是为了正确的理由，而不是为了得到别的东西。
Andrew Huberman: But it's hard to explain that to someone who's really driven.
Andrew Huberman：但是很难向真正有动力的人解释这一点。
Not even nowadays.
即使是现在也没有。
It's just hard to explain that to somebody because I think people who are really driven also, they want people to understand something.
很难向某人解释这一点，因为我认为真正有动力的人也希望人们理解某些事情。
Twyla Tharp: They need to understand excellence on their own terms, not from outside, but from inside.
Twyla Tharp：他们需要从自己的角度来理解卓越，不是从外部，而是从内部。
I can do more.
我可以做更多。
I can do more.
我可以做更多。
That's what I'm interested in.
这就是我感兴趣的。
Oh, you like that?
哦，你喜欢这样吗？
Not enough.
不够。
I want more.
我想要更多。
Andrew Huberman: Just letting that really sink in.
Andrew Huberman：让我们真正理解这一点。
I totally agree.
我完全同意。
I'm just trying to think of the messaging that works for kids.
我只是想想想适合孩子们的信息传递方式。
Twyla Tharp: Almost none.
特怀拉·萨普：几乎没有。
I have a grandson, believe me.
我有一个孙子，相信我。
Andrew Huberman: They operate on their own, in their own frame.
Andrew Huberman：他们在自己的框架内独立运作。
Twyla Tharp: Yes.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
It worked on you.
它对你起作用了。
Worked on me to some extent.
在一定程度上对我起了作用。
Twyla Tharp: Yes, because my mother was a concert pianist, and she wasn't able to...
Twyla Tharp：是的，因为我的母亲是一位音乐会钢琴家，而她无法...
The war came, and she started teaching to help support the family.
战争爆发了，她开始教书来养家糊口。
And in a way, I think, I was aware of the sacrifice that she had made, but I also heard the level of excellence.
在某种程度上，我想，我意识到她所做出的牺牲，但我也听到了她的卓越水平。
From the time I was a teeny, itsy-bitsy, I went to her lessons.
从我很小的时候起，我就去听她的课。
She'd continued, and I heard the practicing.
她继续说下去，我听到了练习声。
And I think even with no training, I heard that that was better than that, and they got closer.
我认为即使没有接受过培训，我也听说那比那更好，而且他们变得更接近了。
And you develop your own morality.
你会发展自己的道德。
You don't have somebody telling you what is good and what is bad.
没有人告诉你什么是好，什么是坏。
Andrew Huberman: It sounds like, if I may, that you develop your own internal standard.
Andrew Huberman：如果可以的话，听起来好像是您制定了自己的内部标准。
That's very high.
那是非常高的。
Twyla Tharp: It's very high, it's unattainable, and you're going to hate yourself a lot of the time.
Twyla Tharp：它非常高，遥不可及，很多时候你会恨自己。
Andrew Huberman: They don't tell you that, but it's true.
Andrew Huberman：他们没有告诉你这一点，但这是真的。
Twyla Tharp: Well, I'm just saying.
Twyla Tharp：嗯，我只是说说而已。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, it's true.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，确实如此。
I don't know if hate...
不知道是不是讨厌...
Hate's a strong word.
仇恨是一个很强烈的词。
Twyla Tharp: It is a strong word.
Twyla Tharp：这是一个很强烈的词。
Andrew Huberman: Maybe not satisfied, but...
Andrew Huberman：也许不满意，但是......
Twyla Tharp: Sorry, it's called "hate."
Twyla Tharp：抱歉，这就是“仇恨”。
Andrew Huberman: I love your honesty.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我喜欢你的诚实。
You've said before, "Before you can think outside the box, you have to have a box." But you also talk about having an actual box.
您之前说过，“在您能够跳出框框思考之前，您必须先有一个框框。”但你也谈到拥有一个真正的盒子。
Twyla Tharp: Yes.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
Andrew Huberman: Explain.
安德鲁·休伯曼：解释一下。
Twyla Tharp: Well, the actual box holds the tangible items that are very sensory, that have the feel or the smell or the weight of when you first thought that idea.
Twyla Tharp：嗯，实际的盒子里装的是非常感官的有形物品，它们具有你第一次想到这个想法时的感觉、气味或重量。
Maybe your dance isn't going to look like a rock, but when you picked up that rock, there was a certain kind of physical resistance, and that suggested a kind of movement.
也许你的舞蹈看起来不像一块石头，但是当你拿起那块石头时，就会出现某种物理阻力，这表明了一种运动。
And if you don't keep that rock, you'll forget sometimes where it came from.
如果你不保留那块石头，有时你会忘记它来自哪里。
Twyla Tharp: I was working on a film script once, and I was told, "Look, write down your initial instinct, your initial idea for what the film is to be, put it in a drawer, and lock the drawer because there are times when you're going to not know what the f*** you're doing.
特怀拉·撒普：有一次我正在写电影剧本，有人告诉我，“听着，写下你最初的直觉，你对电影的最初想法，把它放在抽屉里，然后锁上抽屉，因为有时候你不知道自己在做什么。
Unlock the drawer and remind yourself." That rock can remind you of that original instinct, that original movement that evolved from it, and you go, "Oh, yeah, yeah, that's where I am.
打开抽屉并提醒自己。”那块石头可以提醒你最初的本能，从它演变而来的最初的运动，然后你就会说，“哦，是的，是的，那就是我所在的地方。
That's what I'm doing."
这就是我正在做的事情。”
Twyla Tharp: But we overthink things, and we compound it, and it's not that complicated.
Twyla Tharp：但是我们对事情想得太多了，我们把它复合了，事情并没有那么复杂。
You want to keep it as simple as possible.
您希望使其尽可能简单。
You want to, I think, keep it as close to the initial reason you wanted to do it, the initial sense of excitement, and again, to use the same old word, "Love," that you had for that moment in time that you wanted to share.
我认为，你想要让它尽可能接近你想做这件事的最初原因，最初的兴奋感，并且再次使用你想要分享的那个时刻的同一个旧词“爱”。
Andrew Huberman: I love the idea of anchoring to physical items around something that's conceptual because the conceptual journey can be, whether or not it's a book or a dance or whatever, a podcast, it can be so opaque at times, and you're just you're trying to stay anchored to the center, to the spine, but it can be really tough.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我喜欢围绕概念性的东西锚定到物理项目的想法，因为概念之旅可以是，无论是一本书、一场舞蹈还是其他什么，一个播客，它有时可能是如此不透明，而你只是试图保持锚定在中心、脊柱上，但这可能真的很困难。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And having a physical object that you understand means A, and that's it.
Andrew Huberman：拥有一个你理解的物理对象意味着 A，就是这样。
It's non-negotiable.
这是没有商量余地的。
Twyla Tharp: There are certain things you don't forget.
Twyla Tharp：有些事情你不会忘记。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Twyla Tharp: Those are the important things.
Twyla Tharp：这些都是重要的事情。
That's what truth is.
这就是真理。
You don't forget it.
你不会忘记它。
Andrew Huberman: I guess this is the reason we have plaques and wedding rings and things like that, is they symbolize something in a very simple way, that everyone understands, and in this case, it's important that you understand.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我想这就是我们有牌匾和结婚戒指之类的东西的原因，它们以一种非常简单的方式象征着某种东西，每个人都理解，在这种情况下，理解这一点很重要。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah, but it's a symbol of.
Twyla Tharp：是的，但它是一个象征。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Twyla Tharp: That's different.
特怀拉·萨普：那是不同的。
Andrew Huberman: Mm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯。
Twyla Tharp: Symbol is different from the actual rock.
Twyla Tharp：符号与实际的岩石不同。
The rock is the thing itself.
岩石就是事物本身。
It's not the symbol of anything.
它不是任何事物的象征。
It's the rock.
这是岩石。
Andrew Huberman: So, it has a property that is what you're trying to thread through your work.
Andrew Huberman：所以，它有一个属性，这就是你试图贯穿你的工作的属性。
Twyla Tharp: Yes.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
Doesn't stand for something else.
不代表别的东西。
Andrew Huberman: It actually has that thing.
Andrew Huberman：它确实有那个东西。
Twyla Tharp: And that's, in a way, why ritual...
Twyla Tharp：从某种程度上来说，这就是为什么仪式......
Because ritual is not quite the same as practice.
因为仪式与实践并不完全相同。
Ritual is done for a purpose.
仪式是有目的的。
It's done to accomplish an end.
这样做是为了达到目的。
Purpose, you just do it.
有目的，你就去做。
Andrew Huberman: So, let's break those apart: ritual, purpose, and habit.
Andrew Huberman：那么，让我们把它们分开：仪式、目的和习惯。
If you were to separate those out.
如果你要把它们分开。
Twyla Tharp: Okay.
特怀拉·撒普：好的。
Ritual, to accomplish a goal or a kind of control.
仪式，实现一个目标或一种控制。
Practice, a consistent, ongoing activity that somehow keeps reocurring.
练习是一项持续不断的活动，并且以某种方式不断重复。
Habit you do because you're in the habit of doing it.
你做的习惯是因为你习惯了这样做。
I mean, habit and practice are actually very close.
我的意思是，习惯和实践实际上非常接近。
Habit is dangerous because you got to do it that way.
习惯是危险的，因为你必须这样做。
That's the habit for it.
这就是它的习惯。
Practice is just get the job done.
练习只是为了完成工作。
You can do it in different ways, but get the job done.
你可以用不同的方式来做，但一定要完成工作。
Habit, you got to do it the same way.
习惯了，你也得这样做。
Andrew Huberman: Throughout the entire listening to your book, I had this question in the back of my mind: Did you take weekends off?
安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）：在听你的书的整个过程中，我的脑海里一直浮现出这个问题：你周末休息了吗？
Twyla Tharp: No. What's a weekend?
Twyla Tharp：不。什么是周末？
It's, you know, it's a seven-day workweek here.
你知道，这里每周工作 7 天。
Andrew Huberman: Love it.
安德鲁·休伯曼：喜欢。
You've gotten things like honorary degrees from Harvard, this kind of thing lot of accolades from a lot of different places.
你已经获得了哈佛大学的荣誉学位之类的东西，这种东西来自很多不同地方的很多荣誉。
Do those things matter to you?
这些事情对你来说重要吗？
Twyla Tharp: No.
特怀拉·撒普：不。
Twyla Tharp: No. They matter more to other folks.
Twyla Tharp：不。他们对其他人来说更重要。
And sometimes I have trouble with them.
有时我和他们相处会遇到麻烦。
They don't tell me anything that I have done or, more importantly, will do.
他们没有告诉我任何我已经做过的事情，或者更重要的是，将要做的事情。
Can I honestly say, it's not nice for somebody to say to you, "You've done a great job"?
我可以诚实地说，有人对你说“你做得很好”不是很好吗？
I can't say that.
我不能这么说。
I can, you know, try to feel that it's...
我可以，你知道，尝试去感觉它是...
Twyla Tharp: I think one thing about that kind of action is that it takes a magnanimous person to recall that they have a goal that's going to be ongoing, no matter how many accolades they get, but the people giving the accolades want to matter.
Twyla Tharp：我认为这种行动的一件事是，需要一个大度的人才能记住，他们有一个持续不断的目标，无论他们获得多少赞誉，但给予赞誉的人想要发挥作用。
They want to count.
他们想要数数。
They want to believe that what you have done is important, and in a way, you owe it to them more than to yourself to accept that.
他们想要相信你所做的事情很重要，从某种程度上来说，你应该接受这一点，而不是你自己。
Andrew Huberman: I know you don't like the term, but you came up with it, and I think it's very interesting and important, which is this notion of "scratching," when you're searching for the next idea or the idea, like this notion of "scratching."
Andrew Huberman：我知道你不喜欢这个词，但你想出了这个词，我认为它非常有趣且重要，这就是“抓挠”的概念，当你寻找下一个想法或想法时，就像“抓挠”的概念一样。
Twyla Tharp: Oh.
特怀拉·撒普：哦。
Andrew Huberman: Could you tell people what "scratching" is about?
Andrew Huberman：你能告诉人们“抓挠”是什么吗？
Twyla Tharp: Okay.
特怀拉·撒普：好的。
Two conditions where scratching is a kind of an approach.
在两种情况下，刮擦是一种方法。
One is you're really lost, and you have no sense that there's any progress to be made, and if so, where's the direction to go?
一是你真的迷失了，感觉不到有什么进步，如果有的话，方向在哪里？
And you have to be patient with yourself in the situations, and just try something.
在这种情况下，你必须对自己有耐心，并尝试一些事情。
Twyla Tharp: And did it mean anything or not?
Twyla Tharp：这是否意味着什么？
And having the faith to continue that is a kind of scratching.
拥有继续下去的信念是一种抓挠。
The other is you know perfectly well where you're going.
另一个是你非常清楚自己要去哪里。
You just don't know how to get there.
你只是不知道如何到达那里。
And in scratching, or essaying, or trying that approach, you still got to remember where your basic thing is, but you know you've got somewhere to go.
在草稿、写作或尝试这种方法时，你仍然必须记住你的基本内容在哪里，但你知道你还有地方可以去。
That's a nicer place to be than when you are just in an absolute vacuum, and scratching for something that has meaning.
与你处于绝对真空中并寻找有意义的东西相比，这是一个更好的地方。
Andrew Huberman: And scratching can take a lot of forms.
Andrew Huberman：抓挠可以有很多种形式。
You've said it could be going to a museum and seeing what captures your eye.
你说过可能会去博物馆，看看有什么吸引你的眼球。
It could be just living your daily life and just making sure that you capture anything that kind of pokes through.
它可能只是过你的日常生活，并确保你捕捉到任何类似的事情。
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Twyla Tharp: Yeah, being open about things, and being willing to be caught off guard, being willing to be surprised.
Twyla Tharp：是的，对事情持开放态度，愿意措手不及，愿意感到惊讶。
Andrew Huberman: Could you talk about movement and longevity?
Andrew Huberman：您能谈谈运动和长寿吗？
I mean, you're...
我的意思是，你...
Twyla Tharp: How long have we got?
特怀拉·撒普：我们还有多久？
Andrew Huberman: As long as you want.
安德鲁·休伯曼：只要你愿意。
Twyla Tharp: I don't want.
特怀拉·撒普：我不想。
It's my least favorite topic, and it's my most important topic at the moment, which is why it's my least favorite topic.
这是我最不喜欢的话题，也是我目前最重要的话题，这就是为什么它是我最不喜欢的话题。
Bodies alter every so often, okay?
身体经常发生变化，好吗？
A body at 10 is going to be different from a body at 20.
10岁时的身体与20岁时的身体会有所不同。
What it can accomplish, 20 to 40, there's a kind of continuity in there that is encouraging.
它能完成 20 到 40 个任务，其中有一种令人鼓舞的连续性。
Over 40, the body is going to start behaving differently.
过了 40 岁，身体就会开始表现不同。
47, ugh!
47，呃！
Twyla Tharp: Fifties is getting a little bit numbed, and all of a sudden, you're feeling restricted, and you get pissed off.
Twyla Tharp：五十岁的人变得有点麻木，突然之间，你感到受到限制，并且感到生气。
And you have got to find a way of respecting the fact that you can no longer do what you did when you were 20 or 25, but still, you're pretty potent.
你必须找到一种方式来尊重这样一个事实：你不能再做你 20 或 25 岁时所做的事情，但你仍然非常强大。
And that's a good thing.
这是一件好事。
And I managed to push that.
我成功地推动了这一点。
I was dancing still pretty hard until I was about 65, which is a long reach.
我一直在努力跳舞，直到 65 岁左右，这是一个很长的距离。
Twyla Tharp: But after 65, I began to feel really restricted.
Twyla Tharp：但 65 岁之后，我开始感到真正受到限制。
No, you can't do just anything, even once.
不，你不能只做任何事，哪怕一次。
And oh, by the way, what you're doing might not be strengthening the body.
哦，顺便说一句，你所做的可能不是在增强身体。
You might be weakening the body by repeating that.
重复这个动作可能会削弱你的身体。
"Oh, my God, what do I do here?" Nothing.
“天哪，我来这里做什么？”什么也没有。
And 70, functional.
70，功能齐全。
80 sucks.
80 太糟糕了。
Twyla Tharp: You're restricted now, and your body has lost facility, and you can't pretend it's any other way because you see it, and everybody else sees it, and you need help.
Twyla Tharp：你现在受到限制，你的身体已经失去了功能，你不能假装这是任何其他方式，因为你看到它，其他人也看到它，你需要帮助。
And you don't like help.
而且你不喜欢帮助。
How do you maintain your independence, and still accept graciously help as a reality and not a shame?
你如何保持自己的独立性，同时仍然接受慷慨的帮助作为现实而不是耻辱？
How do you accept a declining body as not demoralizing?
你如何接受身体衰退并不导致士气低落？
Twyla Tharp: Those are tough questions, and particularly if you're invested in the body, and it's where you learn what's true and what isn't true.
Twyla Tharp：这些都是棘手的问题，特别是如果你对身体投入了精力，那么你就可以在身体上了解什么是真的，什么是假的。
It could be true for somebody who can still do it.
对于仍然能做到这一点的人来说，这可能是真的。
It's not true for you because you can't...
这对你来说不是真的，因为你不能...
You still don't have that speed.
你还没有那个速度。
You don't have that flexibility.
你没有那种灵活性。
You don't have that option.
你没有这个选择。
And so, it becomes, I suppose, and I haven't quite accomplished this, but I think about it obviously a lot, we all do, is an exchange rate.
所以，我想，我还没有完全做到这一点，但我显然经常思考它，我们都这样做，是汇率。
Okay, I'm going to have to give up a kind of, sort of physical independence, but in exchange for this, I can have a lot of goodwill.
好吧，我将不得不放弃某种身体上的独立，但作为交换，我可以拥有很多善意。
Twyla Tharp: How can I circulate that goodwill?
Twyla Tharp：我如何传播这种善意？
To get this thing done, that still feels as though it's a worthy enough accomplishment to offer.
为了完成这件事，我仍然觉得这是一项值得提供的成就。
But it's a totally different mechanism, and its physicality translated differently.
但这是一种完全不同的机制，其物理性也有不同的翻译。
And you know one...
你知道一个...
Twyla Tharp: Always, in the studio, I was a very good dancer, and I managed to build a career because dancers wanted to work with me because they become better dancers.
Twyla Tharp：一直以来，在工作室里，我都是一名非常优秀的舞者，我成功地建立了自己的职业生涯，因为舞者们想与我合作，因为他们会成为更好的舞者。
And now, it is not a body that is dancing better than any other dancer.
而现在，它并不是一个身体比任何其他舞者跳舞得更好。
It is a body that is not moving and that needs still to be able to correspond to a great dancer with many, many options that you have something to offer them, and that you can realize something with them that is of great value.
这是一个不动的身体，仍然需要能够与一个伟大的舞者相对应，有很多很多的选择，你可以为他们提供一些东西，并且你可以与他们一起实现一些非常有价值的东西。
Twyla Tharp: I dislike the word "mentor." I don't think about that much, because I like better the word "apprentice," that people learn.
Twyla Tharp：我不喜欢“导师”这个词。我想得不多，因为我更喜欢人们学习的“学徒”这个词。
You don't teach them, they learn.
你不教他们，他们学习。
Andrew Huberman: Mm-hmm.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯嗯。
Twyla Tharp: And that is a component here, and I think that that's a kind of...
Twyla Tharp：这是这里的一个组成部分，我认为这是一种......
I mean, the upside is you can still be mutual.
我的意思是，好处是你们仍然可以是相互的。
You can still share this process, and it's the same as it ever was.
您仍然可以共享此过程，并且与以前一样。
You bring what you got, they bring what they got, you put them together, and you get more than the independent what-or-what-is.
你带来你所拥有的，他们带来他们所拥有的，你把它们放在一起，你得到的不仅仅是独立的“什么”或“是什么”。
And that can still happen if you let it happen, and if you don't get too pissed off.
如果你让它发生，并且你不太生气，这种情况仍然可能发生。
Andrew Huberman: Although being a little pissed might help in terms of the pushing through.
安德鲁·休伯曼：尽管有点生气可能有助于推进。
Twyla Tharp: Oh, wait.
特怀拉·萨普：哦，等等。
Yeah, everybody needs a little pissed all the time.
是的，每个人都需要一直有点生气。
Andrew Huberman: The thing I heard you say once, which really stuck with me, was that you think that perhaps one of the reasons why people age at the level of the brain, and their level of curiosity, is that they start moving less, that it works in that direction.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：我听你说过一次让我印象深刻的事情是，你认为人们在大脑层面和好奇心层面上衰老的原因之一可能是他们开始减少运动，它朝着那个方向发挥作用。
And I started observing people of different ages.
我开始观察不同年龄段的人。
And indeed, even just the amount of gesticulating that people do, it starts to decline over time.
事实上，即使只是人们做手势的数量，也会随着时间的推移而开始减少。
You're an exception to this.
你是个例外。
Andrew Huberman: I know only a few other exceptions to that rule.
Andrew Huberman：我只知道该规则的一些其他例外情况。
I think it is a rule.
我认为这是一个规则。
You look at kids, they're moving all the time, and I think it drops off fairly linearly after, as you said, probably about age 40 or so, people start moving less.
你看看孩子们，他们一直在移动，我认为，正如你所说，大约在 40 岁左右，人们开始减少移动之后，移动量就会呈线性下降。
There's a species of ocean animal that when it lands down on a rock, it actually eats its own brain.
有一种海洋动物，当它落在岩石上时，它实际上会吃掉自己的大脑。
Twyla Tharp: Oh!
特怀拉·萨普：哦！
Andrew Huberman: Except the part that just keeps it alive there to sense when something swims over it, and then it can do its thing.
Andrew Huberman：除了让它保持活力的部分，以感知何时有东西游过它，然后它就可以做它的事情了。
In other words, if we stop moving, our nervous system atrophies, and that's very clear.
换句话说，如果我们停止移动，我们的神经系统就会萎缩，这是非常明显的。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
Andrew Huberman: And it seems that the distal, the fingers and the feet, the neurons that control those certainly lose their strength before we lose our trunk strength, and so on.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：看来，在我们失去躯干力量之前，远端、手指和脚以及控制这些的神经元肯定会失去力量，等等。
So, there's this kind of outward-to-centre atrophy.
所以，存在这种从外到中心的萎缩。
So move more, move more, move more in every aspect of life seems to be the takeaway.
因此，在生活的各个方面多运动、多运动、多运动似乎是要点。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
It's not just more, it's degree also.
这不仅仅是更多，还有程度。
I think that with age, we recess, we pull backwards, we reach out less even than we can.
我认为随着年龄的增长，我们会退缩，我们会向后退缩，我们会比我们能做的更少。
Partially, the sight begins to decline, the hearing, and a kind of fear sets in.
部分视力开始下降，听力开始下降，一种恐惧开始出现。
You still have to be able to maintain a fearlessness in regards to boundaries that you don't have to pull up shy.
你仍然必须能够对界限保持无所畏惧，而不必害羞地拉起界限。
You don't have to pull up short of a boundary.
你不必在边界之外停下来。
Twyla Tharp: You can still address that boundary.
Twyla Tharp：您仍然可以解决该边界问题。
It's just, you're not going to be able to reach as far across as you could have in each of these different decades.
只是，你不可能在这不同的几十年中达到你所能达到的程度。
It's just, you know, you could do one thing when you were two years old.
只是，你知道，你两岁时就可以做一件事。
You can do another thing now.
你现在可以做另一件事。
And it's accepting that everything can give you push back.
并且接受一切都会给你带来阻力。
You have to accept pushback.
你必须接受阻力。
You have to still accept pushback.
你仍然必须接受阻力。
It's going to feel differently, but you still want it.
感觉会有所不同，但你仍然想要它。
Andrew Huberman: Maybe, that's the thing to seek is that friction point.
安德鲁·休伯曼：也许，我们要寻找的就是摩擦点。
Twyla Tharp: Yes.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
Andrew Huberman: In describing dancers and dance, you talked a lot about taking up space.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：在描述舞者和舞蹈时，你谈到了很多关于占用空间的问题。
It's interesting.
这很有趣。
Now, we're talking about people reflexively taking up less and less space as they get older.
现在，我们谈论的是，随着年龄的增长，人们本能地占用越来越少的空间。
Voice occupies space, too.
声音也占据空间。
So, it's kind of interesting to think about movement as the fundamental way in which we have action at a distance, or impact at a distance.
因此，将运动视为我们远距离行动或远距离影响的基本方式是很有趣的。
As you said, recess.
正如你所说，休息。
Twyla Tharp: Shrivel
特怀拉·撒普：枯萎
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Twyla Tharp: Shrivel.
特怀拉·撒普：枯萎。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Maybe, that's the thing to fight against.
也许，这就是我们要对抗的东西。
Twyla Tharp: You know, the word fight, we fight against everything, and I do it too.
Twyla Tharp：你知道，战斗这个词，我们反对一切，我也这样做。
We all do do it.
我们都这样做。
We got to look at it, I say to myself, as an opportunity.
我对自己说，我们必须把它视为一个机会。
It's not a fight.
这不是一场战斗。
It's an opportunity to keep the pressure on.
这是一个保持压力的机会。
I mean, we become frightened.
我的意思是，我们变得害怕。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah, I've seen that in some older folks.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的，我在一些老年人身上看到了这一点。
There's a fear that sets in.
有一种恐惧油然而生。
Twyla Tharp: Right.
特怀拉·撒普：对。
And that's not necessary, because we also got compensations for no reason.
而那是没有必要的，因为我们也无缘无故地得到了补偿。
I'm thinking here of Camus, who had twins, and one of them was, for some reason, thinking she was going to go blind.
我想到的是加缪，她有一对双胞胎，其中一个出于某种原因认为她会失明。
And I guess, she'd been diagnosed.
我猜，她已经被确诊了。
She started practicing being blind.
她开始练习失明。
Twyla Tharp: She started keeping her eyes closed and...
Twyla Tharp：她开始闭上眼睛然后……
She's just a 12-year-old, taking a cane and trying to find her way as a blind person.
她只是一个12岁的女孩，拄着拐杖，试图以盲人的身份寻找出路。
She could see perfectly well.
她看得很清楚。
She was providing against the future.
她是在为未来做准备。
You're not going to provide against death, so just get over it, and keep pushing through like you can see, because you can.
你无法抵御死亡，所以只要克服它，并像你所看到的那样继续前进，因为你可以。
Andrew Huberman: It's like, meet the friction that's there, but at that edge, not any further out.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：就像，遇到那里的摩擦，但在那个边缘，而不是更远的地方。
Twyla Tharp: Right.
特怀拉·撒普：对。
At a reasonable point, where there is a competition, not where you're pre-defeated.
在合理的时间点，即有竞争的地方，而不是你预先被击败的地方。
Andrew Huberman: Speaking of taking up space, you've mentioned before that the fact that your name is Twyla perhaps shaped you in some ways.
Andrew Huberman：说到占据空间，您之前提到过，您的名字 Twyla 可能在某些方面塑造了您。
Twyla Tharp: Yes.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I'm fascinated by this, that how names shape our self-perception, how they shape others' perceptions of us, and how, to some extent, we might live into those perceptions.
安德鲁·胡伯曼：我对此很着迷，名字如何塑造我们的自我认知，它们如何塑造他人对我们的看法，以及在某种程度上，我们如何生活在这些看法中。
Twyla Tharp: Yes.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
My mother, as with everything, provided me with a moniker that would serve me.
我的母亲，就像所有的事情一样，为我提供了一个适合我的绰号。
So the name Twila, she saw in a newspaper, but it was spelled with an "I." The original Twila, who was a pig-calling princess in the next county, Twila, I forget her last name.
所以她在报纸上看到了特维拉这个名字，但拼写上是“我”。原来的特维拉，是邻县特维拉的一个叫猪的公主，我忘记了她的姓氏。
In any case, my mother changed it to a "Y," because she thought Twyla with a "Y" would look better on a marquee.
无论如何，我妈妈把它改成了“Y”，因为她认为带有“Y”的特怀拉在大帐篷上看起来更好。
Twyla Tharp: Okay?
特怀拉·萨普：好吗？
She was right.
她是对的。
That the "T" had to be selected for the alliteration between Twyla and Tharp, "T-T." Marilyn Monroe.
必须选择“T”来表示 Twyla 和 Tharp 之间的头韵“T-T”。玛丽莲·梦露。
All stars have got alliterative names.
所有明星都有头韵名字。
She's not wrong.
她没有错。
It makes it easier to remember.
它更容易记住。
It also seems to have a reinforcing quality.
它似乎也具有强化品质。
One name is a "T," another "T" must be good.
一个名字是“T”，另一个“T”一定很好。
Two Ts, right?
两个T，对吧？
Yeah, this is all my mother's subliminal thinking to provide me with the course of stardom, should I select, that's what I should go towards.
是啊，这都是妈妈潜意识里给我提供的明星之路，我应该选择，那就是我应该走的路。
Andrew Huberman: God bless her.
安德鲁·休伯曼：上帝保佑她。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah, that's what I said.
Twyla Tharp：是的，我就是这么说的。
Andrew Huberman: Well, Twyla Tharp.
安德鲁·休伯曼：嗯，特怀拉·撒普。
Thank you so much for coming here today.
非常感谢您今天来到这里。
Twyla Tharp: Yes.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
Twyla Tharp: Thank you.
特怀拉·撒普：谢谢。
Andrew Huberman: It is a real honor for me.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这对我来说是一种真正的荣幸。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah, no. It's fun.
特怀拉·撒普：是的，不。很有趣。
Andrew Huberman: Yeah.
安德鲁·休伯曼：是的。
Andrew Huberman: It's a real pleasure, a real honor, and I know you are uncomfortable with accolades, so I'm just going to barrel into them by just saying that it's an honor, because I think your work is incredible.
安德鲁·休伯曼：这是一种真正的快乐，一种真正的荣誉，我知道你对荣誉感到不舒服，所以我只想说这是一种荣誉，因为我认为你的工作令人难以置信。
Twyla Tharp: Yeah.
特怀拉·撒普：是的。
Andrew Huberman: I think the book is incredible.
安德鲁·休伯曼：我认为这本书令人难以置信。
So many people that I told I was going to sit down with you today, I'm surprised they're not beating down the doors outside, and that's because I think you represent a lot more than just incredible elite-level dance and choreography.
我告诉很多人我今天要和你坐下来，我很惊讶他们没有敲门，那是因为我认为你代表的不仅仅是令人难以置信的精英级舞蹈和编舞。
You certainly represent that, and the arts, and thank you for your comments about supporting the arts.
您当然代表了这一点和艺术，并感谢您对支持艺术的评论。
Andrew Huberman: Those will propagate far and wide, and hopefully have an impact.
Andrew Huberman：这些将广泛传播，并希望产生影响。
But you also represent this spirit behind creating things, leaning into friction, but also embracing, for lack of a better word, the dance of it all, including what comes from the outside and the internal process.
但你也代表了创造事物背后的这种精神，倾向于摩擦，但也拥抱，因为缺乏更好的词，这一切的舞蹈，包括来自外部和内部过程的东西。
This is a complicated thing, and I know many, many people want it, or just love to see people striving and creating, and so you really embody that spirit.
这是一件复杂的事情，我知道很多很多人都想要它，或者只是喜欢看到人们努力和创造，所以你真正体现了这种精神。
Andrew Huberman: And, you know, the words aren't enough to express how grateful I am, and how grateful millions and millions of people are, so thank you.
安德鲁·休伯曼：你知道，言语不足以表达我的感激之情，以及数以百万计的人的感激之情，所以谢谢你。
Twyla Tharp: Thank you.
特怀拉·撒普：谢谢。
Andrew Huberman: So, God bless your mother for naming you Twyla, and God bless you for coming here today.
安德鲁·休伯曼：所以，上帝保佑你的母亲为你命名为特怀拉，上帝保佑你今天来到这里。
Twyla Tharp: Thank you, sweetheart.
特怀拉·撒普：谢谢你，亲爱的。
And God bless you for doing this, and for believing it's worthwhile, so thank you.
上帝保佑你这样做，并相信这是值得的，所以谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman: Thank you.
安德鲁·休伯曼：谢谢。
Andrew Huberman: Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Twyla Tharp.
Andrew Huberman：感谢您参加今天与 Twyla Tharp 的讨论。
To learn more about her work and to find a link to her truly spectacular book, "The Creative Habit," please see the show note captions.
要了解有关她的作品的更多信息并找到她真正精彩的书《创意习惯》的链接，请参阅演出注释标题。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
Andrew Huberman: In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the "follow" button on both Spotify and Apple.
Andrew Huberman：此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的“关注”按钮来关注播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review, and you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您可以给我们留下五星级的评论，现在您可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。
Andrew Huberman: Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
Andrew Huberman：另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me, or comments about the podcast, or guests, or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客、嘉宾有意见，或者您希望我为 Huberman Lab 播客考虑的主题，请将这些内容放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
Andrew Huberman: For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
安德鲁·休伯曼：对于那些还没有听说过的人，我有一本新书即将出版。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这本书是我花了五年多时间编写的，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验。
And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation.
它涵盖了从睡眠到锻炼再到压力控制的各个方面的协议，以及与注意力和动机相关的协议。
And of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
当然，我还为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
Andrew Huberman: There, you can find links to various vendors.
Andrew Huberman：在那里，您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." And if you're not already following me on social media, I am "hubermanlab" on all social media platforms.
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我在所有社交媒体平台上都是“hubermanlab”。
So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab Podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。
Again, it's "hubermanlab" on all social media platforms.
同样，所有社交媒体平台上都是“hubermanlab”。
Andrew Huberman: And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries, as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs, that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.
Andrew Huberman：如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要，以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.
我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。
All of that is available completely zero-cost.
所有这些都是完全零成本的。
Andrew Huberman: You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter, and enter your email.
Andrew Huberman：您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的“菜单”选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件即可。
And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Twyla Tharp.
再次感谢您参加今天与 Twyla Tharp 的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。