Master Self Control & Overcome Procrastination | Dr. Kentaro Fujita

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

In my own research, we have shown that if we can get people to think about their whys, the purposes behind their decisions, the broader purposes behind what they're doing, they're much more likely to be able to overcome the temptation.

在我自己的研究中，我们已经表明，如果我们能让人们思考他们的原因、他们决策背后的目的以及他们所做事情背后更广泛的目的，他们就更有可能克服诱惑。

So if there's a piece of chocolate cake in front of me and I'm trying not to eat it, if you said, "Oh, I'm not supposed to eat that because I'm on a diet," that doesn't have much magic to it.

因此，如果我面前有一块巧克力蛋糕，而我试图不吃它，如果你说，“哦，我不应该吃它，因为我正在节食”，这并没有什么魔力。

But if instead I'm saying things like, "I need to do this for my family.

但如果我说的是这样的话：“我需要为我的家人做这件事。

I want to look good for my children's wedding photos," or, "My children are looking at me, or, "I want to be a good example," or all these other kinds of these higher order reasons that you might have for getting healthier, being fitter or whatever, not eating the cake, we show that that increases the odds that people will avoid the cake.

我想在我孩子们的结婚照上看起来好看”，或者，“我的孩子们正在看着我，或者，“我想成为一个好榜样”，或者所有这些其他更高阶的理由，你可能会为了变得更健康、更健康或者其他什么，而不是吃蛋糕，我们发现这会增加人们不吃蛋糕的可能性。

And we think it's because it's giving people meaning.

我们认为这是因为它赋予人们意义。

These are higher order things that I care about, and these are what's going to motivate me to hold out.

这些是我关心的更高层次的事情，这些也是我坚持下去的动力。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

欢迎来到胡伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

My guest today is Dr. Kentaro Fujita, professor of psychology at Ohio State University and an expert in the science of self-control and motivation.

今天我的嘉宾是藤田健太郎博士，他是俄亥俄州立大学心理学教授、自我控制和动机科学专家。

If you're somebody who has ever struggled with procrastination, sticking to a goal, or coming up with the goals for your life, today's episode is for you.

如果您曾经与拖延作斗争、坚持目标或为自己的人生制定目标，那么今天的节目适合您。

We start off today's discussion talking about the famous two marshmallow experiment, the one where they placed kids in a room with a marshmallow and told them that if they delayed gratification for that marshmallow, meaning they didn't eat it, they would then get two marshmallows.

我们今天的讨论开始于著名的两个棉花糖实验，他们将孩子们放在一个有棉花糖的房间里，并告诉他们，如果他们延迟对棉花糖的满足，这意味着他们不吃它，那么他们就会得到两个棉花糖。

Those experiments received a lot of attention in that they were supposed to predict whether people would be successful later in life.

这些实验受到了广泛关注，因为它们被认为可以预测人们在以后的生活中是否会取得成功。

We talk about the criticism of those experiments, but also how some of those conclusions were valid, and more importantly, how people of any age, including you, can build mental resilience and your ability to experience deferred gratification toward your goals.

我们讨论了对这些实验的批评，但也讨论了其中一些结论如何有效，更重要的是，包括您在内的任何年龄段的人如何建立心理弹性以及体验实现目标的延迟满足的能力。

We also talk about intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation.

我们还讨论内在动机与外在动机。

These are topics that are very misunderstood out there, but Dr. Fujita clarifies that when we receive rewards for something we are naturally inclined to do, meaning that we love, it does not reduce our motivation to do that thing.

这些都是外界非常误解的话题，但藤田博士澄清说，当我们因为自然而然想做的事情（意味着我们喜欢做）而获得奖励时，这并不会减少我们做那件事的动力。

And this is an important point, and we go into it in terms of the practical steps for building and maintaining your progress on goals.

这是很重要的一点，我们将从建立和保持目标进展的实际步骤方面进行探讨。

We also talk about what the data say about the specific steps that are most effective to both initiate and reach short and long-term goals.

我们还讨论了数据对启动和实现短期和长期目标最有效的具体步骤的看法。

We also talk about how to get out of impulsive states and states of procrastination, what the data say about how to do that.

我们还讨论了如何摆脱冲动状态和拖延状态，数据说明了如何做到这一点。

Today's episode is really focused on science and, more importantly, practical takeaways, several of which I plan to incorporate into my own life.

今天的节目真正关注的是科学，更重要的是，实用的要点，我计划将其中的一些融入到我自己的生活中。

I only wish I had this knowledge when I was younger, but now, thanks to Dr. Fujita coming on the podcast, people of all ages can make great use of the information and data from his studies.

我只希望我年轻时就拥有这些知识，但现在，由于藤田博士出现在播客上，所有年龄段的人都可以充分利用他研究中的信息和数据。

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。

In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.

为了与这个主题保持一致，今天的节目确实有赞助商。

And now for my discussion with Dr. Kentaro Fujita.

现在我与藤田健太郎博士进行讨论。

Dr. Kentaro Fujita, welcome.

藤田健太郎博士，欢迎光临。

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

Thank you.

谢谢你。

Really excited to be here today.

今天能来到这里真的很兴奋。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm super excited to talk to you.

我非常高兴能和你说话。

We hear so much about motivation, discipline, willpower, tenacity, but we really haven't had a modern update on the psychology of these in a long while, not just on the podcast.

我们听到了很多关于动机、纪律、意志力、坚韧的说法，但我们确实已经很长一段时间没有对这些心理学进行现代更新了，而不仅仅是在播客上。

But I think most people have heard of the so-called marshmallow experiment, which hopefully you could explain to us.

但我想大多数人都听说过所谓的棉花糖实验，希望你能为我们解释一下。

Tell us what it revealed, some of the criticisms, maybe even some criticisms of the criticism, because I think the marshmallow experiment, which everyone will learn about momentarily if they don't already know what that is, sort of stands as this symbol of whether willpower is somehow innate or whether it's something that can really be cultivated.

告诉我们它揭示了什么，一些批评，甚至可能是对批评的一些批评，因为我认为棉花糖实验，每个人都会暂时了解它，如果他们还不知道它是什么，有点象征着意志力是否是天生的，或者是否是真正可以培养的东西。

So if you would, what is the marshmallow experiment?

那么如果你愿意的话，棉花糖实验是什么？

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

So the marshmallow test was actually a series of experiments that was conducted by Walter Mischel in the '60s to '70s to '80s at Stanford.

所以棉花糖测试实际上是 Walter Mischel 在 60 年代到 70 年代到 80 年代在斯坦福大学进行的一系列实验。

And what happens in the classic paradigm is a child comes in and is seated in front of a plate with some kind of thing that they really want.

在经典范例中发生的情况是，一个孩子走进来，坐在盘子前，盘子里盛着他们真正想要的某种东西。

Generally speaking, it was a single marshmallow.

一般来说，它是一个棉花糖。

And the children were told that the experimenter was going to leave for a while, but if they could avoid eating the one, or basically hold out and not eat the one, and it was still there when the experimenter came back, they could get two marshmallows.

孩子们被告知实验者要离开一段时间，但如果他们能避免吃那个，或者基本上坚持不吃那个，并且当实验者回来时它仍然在那里，他们就可以获得两块棉花糖。

So it's essentially a self-control problem because you have a smaller sooner reward, and you're sort of trading that off with a larger later reward.

因此，这本质上是一个自我控制问题，因为你会得到较小的早期奖励，而你会用较大的后期奖励来交换它。

And the key dependent variable here was how long the child could wait.

这里的关键因变量是孩子可以等待多长时间。

Now, the dirty little secret about the marshmallow experiments is that no child waited the full 15 minutes that the experimenter was gone.

现在，关于棉花糖实验的一个肮脏的小秘密是，没有一个孩子会等实验者离开整整 15 分钟。

But what you could do is you could basically, as soon as the door closed, you would start the timer, and you were just basically looking to see how long the children would wait.

但你能做的是，基本上，门一关上，你就会启动计时器，你基本上只是想看看孩子们会等多久。

That was interpreted as the child's delay of gratification ability or otherwise self-control.

这被解释为孩子满足能力或其他自我控制能力的延迟。

Now, there were a series of experiments that we can talk about.

现在，我们可以讨论一系列的实验。

They used these experiments to learn a lot about the different tactics and tricks and tools that kids could learn to use to improve their delay of gratification, but that's not what everybody knows.

他们利用这些实验来了解很多不同的策略、技巧和工具，孩子们可以学习使用这些方法来改善他们的延迟满足感，但这并不是每个人都知道的。

What everybody knows about these experiments is that many years later, they analyzed data in which they looked at children's delay time.

每个人都知道这些实验是多年后，他们分析了观察儿童延迟时间的数据。

So again, how long did they wait before they indulged in the one marshmallow.

再说一遍，他们等了多久才沉迷于这一颗棉花糖。

And then they saw to what extent it was correlated with important life outcomes like academic achievement, career success, income, even things like incarceration, social relationships, and what they found was shocking.

然后他们看到它在多大程度上与重要的生活成果相关，如学业成就、职业成功、收入，甚至是监禁、社会关系等，他们的发现令人震惊。

The longer children could wait before eating the single marshmallow, the more likely they were to do well in school, more likely to make more money, have more friends, have better physical and mental health, and also have lower incarceration, and problematic social behavior reports.

孩子们在吃一颗棉花糖之前等待的时间越长，他们就越有可能在学校表现出色，更有可能赚更多的钱，拥有更多的朋友，拥有更好的身心健康，并且监禁和有问题的社会行为报告也更少。

And so this got people really excited about self-control because it suggested it was a key skill for important life outcomes, and this is what generated a lot of that excitement.

因此，这让人们对自我控制感到非常兴奋，因为它表明这是实现重要生活成果的关键技能，而这正是产生很多兴奋的原因。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Did any of the kids actually get two marshmallows as a reward?

有哪个孩子真的得到了两块棉花糖作为奖励吗？

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

It depends on the data set.

这取决于数据集。

So research has now shown that the marshmallow test waiting times depend on a lot of things.

现在的研究表明，棉花糖测试的等待时间取决于很多因素。

So in the original experiments, there was something like 15 minutes.

所以在最初的实验中，大约有 15 分钟。

Other experimenters have shortened that time to 10 minutes, and that's a little easier for children to do.

其他实验者已将时间缩短至 10 分钟，这对孩子来说更容易做到。

Another really important thing about the marshmallow test is that the child has to trust the experimenter.

棉花糖测试的另一个非常重要的事情是孩子必须信任实验者。

If you don't trust the experimenter, why should you bother waiting, right?

如果你不信任实验者，你为什么要费心等待，对吧？

It's perfectly rational just to go ahead and grab the one if you don't trust the experimenter's actually going to bring you two.

如果你不相信实验者真的会给你带来两个，那么直接去拿一个是完全合理的。

So there have been experiments in which the experimenter looks reliable or unreliable in front of the child.

于是就出现了实验者在孩子面前显得可靠或不可靠的实验。

So they forget something, or they remember to do something.

所以他们忘记了一些事情，或者他们记得做一些事情。

And when experimenters are unreliable, children do not wait.

当实验者不可靠时，孩子们就不会等待。

They just go and grab the marshmallow.

他们只是去拿棉花糖。

And it's been argued that that's actually a sensible, rational behavior.

有人认为这实际上是一种明智、理性的行为。

So the setup here, it sounds really simple, but there's a lot of art behind this to make this experiment work the way that it's supposed to.

因此，这里的设置听起来非常简单，但这背后有很多艺术才能使这个实验按照预期的方式进行。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is it a leap to assume that the adage that children who observe their parents doing the thing that the kids are told not to do are less likely to follow instruction?

俗话说“观察父母做不该做的事情的孩子就不太可能听从指示”，这样的假设是否过于大胆了？

For instance, if parents say, "Listen, no electronic devices until after dinner and you've done your homework," and then the kids see their parent looking at their phone, does that reduce trust in the parent's advice?

例如，如果父母说：“听着，晚饭后才可以使用电子设备，并且你已经完成了作业。”然后孩子们看到父母在看手机，这是否会降低对父母建议的信任？

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

I don't know if it reduces the trust in the parent's advice, but there is a lot of research on what's known as social modeling.

我不知道这是否会降低对父母建议的信任，但是有很多关于所谓的社交建模的研究。

The most famous experiment of this, they brought in a blow-up doll.

其中最著名的实验是他们带来了一个充气娃娃。

It was a clown, and it was referred to as Bobo, and kids either watched a video of an adult punching Bobo or being nice to Bobo, and then were allowed to play with Bobo themselves.

那是一个小丑，被称为波波，孩子们要么观看大人打波波的视频，要么对波波友善，然后就可以自己和波波一起玩。

And those that watched the adult punch Bobo were more likely to punch Bobo themselves.

而那些看着大人打波波的人更有可能自己打波波。

So this suggests that children are very observant of our own behavior, and so if you are acting in a certain way, children are learning that that's the appropriate way to learn.

所以这表明孩子们对我们自己的行为非常观察，所以如果你以某种方式行事，孩子们就会知道这是适当的学习方式。

So I don't know that it's been done specific on self-control.

所以我不知道这是针对自我控制进行的。

It may have.

可能有。

But certainly in many, many other behaviors, children are remarkably observant of what adults do.

但可以肯定的是，在许多其他行为中，孩子们都非常善于观察成年人的行为。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I won't hold you responsible for defending or holding up the marshmallow experiments, but they've received a lot of criticism over the years, as have many paradigm-shifting areas of psychology, right?

我不会让你为捍卫或阻止棉花糖实验负责，但多年来它们受到了很多批评，心理学的许多范式转变领域也是如此，对吗？

Or neuroscience.

或者神经科学。

I think it's important for everyone to know that the moment that there's sort of a theory put forth, like growth mindset, or for the developmental neurobiologist, the idea that all neurons in the cortex migrate radially.

我认为每个人都应该知道，当有一种理论提出时，比如成长心态，或者对于发育神经生物学家来说，皮质中的所有神经元都呈放射状迁移的想法，这一点很重要。

Two, five years later, someone's going to find an exception to that, and then the whole thing seems to crumble, but then it sort of comes back where the answer is both.

两五年后，有人会找到一个例外，然后整个事情似乎崩溃了，但随后又回到了答案是两者兼而有之的地方。

In terms of the marshmallow experiment, I've heard a lot of criticism.

就棉花糖实验而言，我听到了很多批评。

It wasn't as predictive as we thought.

它并不像我们想象的那样具有预测性。

Maybe the experimenters were sort of biasing the data collection.

也许实验者对数据收集产生了偏见。

What are the valid criticisms in your view, and what are the criticisms of the criticisms in your view?

您认为哪些批评是有效的，哪些批评是您认为的批评？

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

So as I mentioned, the marshmallow experiments or marshmallow tests, they have to be set up right, and like a lot of other psychology experiments, I think the psychologists kind of intuitively understood what it took to get it right, but were not very good at articulating those for others to follow in kind of a recipe book.

正如我所提到的，棉花糖实验或棉花糖测试必须正确设置，就像许多其他心理学实验一样，我认为心理学家直观地理解如何才能做到正确，但不太擅长以食谱书的形式阐明这些内容供其他人遵循。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

The most famous criticism, or the one that got the most press recently, is that there was a very large data set of children outcomes in which they completed the marshmallow test at four years old, and then a bunch of different life outcomes at adolescence.

最著名的批评，或者说最近最受媒体关注的批评是，有一个非常大的儿童结果数据集，其中他们在四岁时完成了棉花糖测试，然后在青春期获得了一堆不同的生活结果。

And so they basically wanted to see whether they could replicate the marshmallow test.

所以他们基本上想看看是否可以复制棉花糖测试。

And in principle, they should have.

原则上，他们应该这样做。

And they did, and they did not.

他们做到了，也没有做到。

So if you looked at the simple correlation between did delay time predict outcomes like academic achievement and problematic behavior, the answer was yes.

因此，如果你看看延迟时间是否可以预测学业成绩和问题行为等结果之间的简单相关性，答案是肯定的。

It seemed to replicate.

它似乎复制了。

But then the researchers controlled for things like socioeconomic status, which was one of the criticisms of the original Stanford studies, because Stanford children, or at least the children that were going to the Stanford University daycare where these experiments were being conducted, were not your average American family.

但随后研究人员控制了社会经济地位等因素，这是对斯坦福大学最初研究的批评之一，因为斯坦福大学的孩子，或者至少是去进行这些实验的斯坦福大学日托中心的孩子，不是普通的美国家庭。

Mostly well-to-do.

大多是富裕的。

And this matters.

这很重要。

And so when the researchers, they had 30 or 40 other covariate variables that they were controlling for.

因此，当研究人员控制 30 或 40 个其他协变量时。

When they controlled for all these other variables, children's delay of gratification was no longer predicting these outcomes it was supposed to.

当他们控制所有其他变量时，孩子们的延迟满足不再能够预测这些结果。

And so this paper got a lot of attention for basically saying, "Look, the marshmallow tests are bunk." Now, this has been controversial because the question is: Was that statistical adjustment appropriate, and are we interpreting that statistical adjustment correctly?

因此这篇论文引起了很多关注，因为它基本上说：“看，棉花糖测试是废话。”现在，这一直存在争议，因为问题是：统计调整是否适当，我们是否正确解释了统计调整？

There have been other experimenters, other researchers who have come along.

还有其他实验者、其他研究人员也加入了。

One of them is named Yuko Munakata, and her team.

其中一位名叫宗像佑子（Yuko Munakata）和她的团队。

They took the same data set, and they reanalyzed it with a different set of assumptions, a lot more conservative.

他们采用了相同的数据集，并使用一组不同的假设（更加保守）对其进行了重新分析。

So rather than throwing in 30 covariates, they put in theory-driven covariates, ones that made sense from what we know already about research, as opposed to throwing in the kitchen sink.

因此，他们没有投入 30 个协变量，而是投入了理论驱动的协变量，这些协变量根据我们已经了解的研究知识而有意义，而不是投入厨房水槽。

And when they did that, they still found that delay of gratification predicted reports of problematic behavior, which suggests a very clean replication of the original marshmallow test.

当他们这样做时，他们仍然发现延迟满足可以预测有问题的行为的报告，这表明原始棉花糖测试的非常干净的复制。

So some people have suggested that failure to replicate the original marshmallow test, it got a lot of attention, but it may not have been the final answer because these experimenters, again, came along and looked at exactly the same data set and came to the opposite conclusion.

因此，有人提出，未能复制原始的棉花糖测试，引起了很多关注，但这可能不是最终的答案，因为这些实验者再次出现并查看了完全相同的数据集，并得出了相反的结论。

So there's still a bit of a debate out there, but I think the main point to take away here, again, is that the way that you set up the marshmallow test is really important.

因此，仍然存在一些争论，但我认为这里要强调的要点是，设置棉花糖测试的方式非常重要。

You have to have trust.

你必须有信任。

And the argument about socioeconomic status is that kids who grow up in high SES environments, they're very stable, they're very predictable, so when you wait, you are more likely to get the larger later reward.

关于社会经济地位的争论是，在高社会经济地位环境中长大的孩子，他们非常稳定，他们非常可预测，所以当你等待时，你更有可能获得更大的后续奖励。

But if you come from a lower SES family, where rewards come and go, and just because you save now doesn't mean it's going to pay off later They're not going to wait, and so it's not as indicative for them.

但如果你来自社会经济地位较低的家庭，那里的奖励来来去去，仅仅因为你现在存钱并不意味着以后会得到回报，他们不会等待，所以这对他们来说并不具有指示性。

So all of these things have to be carefully controlled for, and they were part of the original experiments.

因此，所有这些事情都必须仔细控制，它们是原始实验的一部分。

Again, not really well-articulated to the extent that you can create a situation where people do trust that they will get the larger later reward.

再说一次，没有很好地表达到你可以创造一种人们确实相信他们会得到更大的后续奖励的情况。

There does seem to be some predictive ability of this test.

这个测试似乎确实有一定的预测能力。

Now, let me just say, as a self-control researcher myself, I think people are missing the boat.

现在，我只想说，作为一名自我控制研究者，我认为人们错过了机会。

What is most interesting about the marshmallow test is not whether or not they can predict outcomes later.

棉花糖测试最有趣的不是他们是否可以预测以后的结果。

And that's very nice to convince people that self-control is important.

这很好地让人们相信自我控制很重要。

If I'm applying for federal grant money, for example, that's probably the first sentence that I write, that self-control predicts life outcomes.

例如，如果我正在申请联邦拨款，这可能是我写的第一句话，自我控制可以预测生活结果。

There have been many, many other ways of testing this hypothesis, so I don't think we need to rely on the marshmallow test to make that point anymore.

有很多很多其他方法来检验这个假设，所以我认为我们不再需要依赖棉花糖检验来证明这一点。

The most important thing about the marshmallow test that gets completely overlooked goes back to something you said earlier, Andrew.

棉花糖测试中被完全忽视的最重要的事情可以追溯到你之前所说的，安德鲁。

Is it an innate talent, or is it something that we learn?

这是与生俱来的天赋，还是我们后天习得的天赋？

The most important experiments, Walter Mischel and his team were teaching children the strategies of self-control, and when children learn them, their delay ability got better.

沃尔特·米歇尔和他的团队最重要的实验是教孩子们自我控制的策略，当孩子们学会这些策略时，他们的延迟能力就会变得更好。

That is a really, really important lesson because it suggests that self-control isn't something innate.

这是一个非常非常重要的教训，因为它表明自我控制并不是与生俱来的。

Instead, it's something that we learn over time.

相反，这是我们随着时间的推移学到的东西。

Let me just give you an example.

让我举个例子。

So one of the things that he taught children was, is it better to stare at the one marshmallow or close your eyes?

所以他教孩子们的一件事是，盯着一颗棉花糖好还是闭上眼睛好？

Cover it up or close your eyes.

将其遮盖或闭上眼睛。

Three-year-old children believe that it's better to stare at it because they think that's how I'm going to motivate myself.

三岁的孩子认为盯着它看会更好，因为他们认为这就是我激励自己的方式。

If I can see what I want, I'm going to be able to wait.

如果我能看到我想要的东西，我就能等待。

I can see the one, I can imagine the second, I can wait longer.

我可以看到第一个，我可以想象第二个，我可以等待更长的时间。

Five-year-olds learn that that's not going to work, and they learn to cover it up or close their eyes.

五岁的孩子知道这是行不通的，他们学会了掩盖或闭上眼睛。

Interestingly, basically, you can create a written test or a verbal test where you can ask children, what do you think you should do in order to wait longer?

有趣的是，基本上，你可以创建一个笔试或口头测试，你可以问孩子们，你认为你应该做什么才能等待更长时间？

And research shows that children who-- Well, let me be more careful.

研究表明，孩子们——好吧，让我更加小心。

Research shows that there are age-related differences, so a three-year-old, they don't know anything, but a five-year-old, they've learned.

研究表明，存在与年龄相关的差异，所以三岁的孩子，他们什么都不知道，但五岁的孩子，他们已经学会了。

And then later on at 13 years old, those children who correctly understand the quote, unquote, "rules of self-control" have less problematic behavior.

到了 13 岁时，那些正确理解“自我控制规则”这句话的孩子的行为问题就会减少。

So Walter Mischel and his team went to a summer camp for children with behavioral problems, and those that understood the rules, the tricks that work, and the tricks that don't work, were less likely to have behavioral problems at that camp than those who did not.

因此，沃尔特·米歇尔和他的团队去了一个针对有行为问题的儿童的夏令营，那些了解规则、有效技巧和无效技巧的孩子在夏令营中出现行为问题的可能性比那些不了解的孩子要小。

So knowledge matters.

所以知识很重要。

Self-control can be learned.

自我控制是可以学习的。

It can be taught.

它是可以被教导的。

You can learn by trial and error.

您可以通过尝试和错误来学习。

And I think that's really important because it suggests that rather than being something that we're born with, we can get better, we can grow, we can improve over time.

我认为这非常重要，因为它表明我们可以变得更好，我们可以成长，我们可以随着时间的推移而提高，而不是成为我们与生俱来的东西。

And I think this is a really important lesson that often gets overlooked with these studies.

我认为这是一个非常重要的教训，但在这些研究中经常被忽视。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to take a quick break to acknowledge one of our sponsors, David.

我想稍微休息一下，向我们的赞助商之一大卫表示感谢。

David makes protein bars unlike any other.

大卫制作的蛋白质棒与众不同。

Their newest bar, the Bronze Bar, has 20 grams of protein, only 150 calories, and zero grams of sugar.

他们最新的 Bronze Bar 含有 20 克蛋白质，仅 150 卡路里，零克糖。

I have to say, these are the best-tasting protein bars I've ever had, and I've tried a lot of protein bars over the years.

我不得不说，这些是我吃过的味道最好的蛋白质棒，这些年来我尝试过很多蛋白质棒。

These new David bars have a marshmallow base, and they're covered in chocolate coating, and they're absolutely incredible.

这些新的大卫巧克力棒有一个棉花糖底座，上面覆盖着巧克力涂层，它们绝对令人难以置信。

I, of course, eat regular whole foods.

当然，我经常吃天然食品。

I eat meat, chicken, fish, eggs, fruits, vegetables, et cetera.

我吃肉、鸡肉、鱼、鸡蛋、水果、蔬菜等等。

But I also make it a point to eat one or two David bars per day as a snack, which makes it easy to hit my protein goal of one gram of protein per pound of body weight.

但我也强调每天吃一两块大卫棒作为零食，这样很容易达到我每磅体重一克蛋白质的蛋白质目标。

And that allows me to take in the protein I need without consuming excess calories.

这使我能够摄入所需的蛋白质，而不会消耗过多的热量。

I love all the David Bronze Bar flavors, including cookie dough, caramel chocolate, double chocolate, peanut butter chocolate.

我喜欢大卫青铜棒的所有口味，包括饼干面团、焦糖巧克力、双层巧克力、花生酱巧克力。

They all actually taste like candy bars.

它们实际上尝起来都像棒棒糖。

Again, they're amazing.

再说一次，他们太棒了。

But again, they have no sugar, and they have 20 grams of protein with just 150 calories.

但同样，它们不含糖，并且含有 20 克蛋白质，只有 150 卡路里热量。

If you'd like to try David, you can go to davidprotein.com/huberman.

如果您想尝试 David，可以访问 david Protein.com/huberman。

Right now, David is offering a deal where if you buy four cartons, you get the fifth carton for free.

现在，大卫正在提供一项优惠，如果您购买四箱，您可以免费获得第五箱。

You can also find David on Amazon or in stores such as Target, Walmart, and Kroger.

您还可以在亚马逊或 Target、沃尔玛和克罗格等商店找到 David。

Again, to get the fifth carton for free, go to davidprotein.com/huberman.

同样，要免费获得第五箱，请访问 david Protein.com/huberman。

Today's episode is also brought to us by Lingo.

今天的节目也是Lingo给我们带来的。

One of the most important factors in your short and long-term health is your body's ability to manage glucose over time.

影响您短期和长期健康的最重要因素之一是您的身体随着时间的推移控制血糖的能力。

Glucose directly impacts our brain function, mood, and energy.

葡萄糖直接影响我们的大脑功能、情绪和能量。

You want your glucose relatively stable across the day without big peaks or valleys.

您希望血糖在一天中相对稳定，没有大的峰值或谷值。

This is why I use the continuous glucose monitor and app from Lingo by Abbott.

这就是我使用 Lingo by Abbott 的连续血糖监测仪和应用程序的原因。

Lingo provides minute-by-minute glucose data directly within the app, showing you how your glucose responds to food, exercise, and stress.

Lingo 直接在应用程序内提供每分钟的血糖数据，向您展示血糖对食物、运动和压力的反应。

This information can help you make smarter choices to support your health both now and in the long term.

这些信息可以帮助您做出更明智的选择，以支持您当前和长期的健康。

The CDC estimates that more than one in three American adults has prediabetes, and that many of these people don't know they are living with prediabetes.

疾病预防控制中心估计，超过三分之一的美国成年人患有糖尿病前期，其中许多人并不知道自己患有糖尿病前期。

Visibility about how your diet and activity affect your glucose can be the first step toward informed conversations with your doctor and making smarter daily choices.

了解您的饮食和活动如何影响您的血糖可能是与您的医生进行知情对话并做出更明智的日常选择的第一步。

If you'd like to try Lingo, Lingo is offering Huberman Lab listeners in the US and UK 10% off a four-week plan.

如果您想尝试 Lingo，Lingo 将为美国和英国的 Huberman Lab 听众提供为期 4 周的 10% 折扣。

Just visit hellolingo.com/huberman for more information.

请访问 hellolingo.com/huberman 了解更多信息。

Terms and conditions apply.

条款和条件适用。

Again, that's hellolingo.com/huberman.

再说一次，这是hellolingo.com/huberman。

I'm smiling as you describe the strategies these children take because I've seen some of the videos, and we'll provide a link to those in the show note captions.

当你描述这些孩子们采取的策略时，我微笑着，因为我看过一些视频，我们将在节目注释标题中提供指向这些视频的链接。

They're adorable, and in many ways, they reflect the behavior of adults, but in a much purer form.

它们很可爱，而且在很多方面都反映了成年人的行为，但形式更纯粹。

I recall one where I think it was a young boy where he's leaning into the marshmallow, and he's kind of doing like a yum, yum, yum, like acting as if-- But he's not letting himself do it, and then he looks away, and it seems to be that he's aware he wants to move.

我记得有一次，我认为是一个小男孩靠在棉花糖上，他的动作就像是，嗯，嗯，就像表现得好像——但他不让自己这么做，然后他把目光移开，似乎他意识到自己想要移动。

He's letting himself move, but then he's pulling back.

他让自己移动，但随后又退缩了。

And as somebody who's currently training a puppy, I can tell you that the wait with placing food or a treat in front of the puppy and getting that, what neuroscientists call top-down inhibition, the suppression of impulse, getting that trained up is so interesting because, talking about a dog now, but my new ...

作为目前正在训练小狗的人，我可以告诉你，等待将食物或零食放在小狗面前并得到它，神经科学家称之为自上而下的抑制，抑制冲动，训练它是如此有趣，因为现在谈论一只狗，但我的新......

bulldog mastiff puppy, he will intentionally look away from the food.

斗牛犬獒犬幼犬时，他会故意将目光从食物上移开。

He's so tempted to eat it.

他很想吃它。

So I'll say, "Look at me," that actually makes it easier for him, so it makes it seem like he's more disciplined.

所以我会说，“看着我”，这实际上让他更容易，所以这让他看起来更有纪律。

But I think all mammals, probably all creatures that have this top-down inhibition, come up with these strategies, and I have to assume that they're pretty unique, not just by age, but to the individual.

但我认为所有哺乳动物，可能是所有具有这种自上而下抑制作用的生物，都会想出这些策略，而且我必须假设它们非常独特，不仅在年龄上，而且对于个体来说也是如此。

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

Agreed.

同意。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I remember one kid spinning around in his chair.

我记得一个孩子在椅子上转来转去。

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

Agreed.

同意。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And it does seem to be that the impulse to do something obviously involves movement.

做某事的冲动似乎确实涉及运动。

And it seems, and I'm curious if there's any research looking at, if people have an opportunity to actually move their body as opposed to sit rigidly and prevent movement, whether or not they're more effective in suppressing impulsive behavior.

我很好奇是否有任何研究表明，人们是否有机会真正移动自己的身体，而不是僵硬地坐着并阻止移动，他们是否能更有效地抑制冲动行为。

In many cultures, you have things like worry beads to dispel anxiety.

在许多文化中，人们都会用忧念珠之类的东西来消除焦虑。

Some people, when they get stressed, will go for a walk or a run, and it does seem to work.

有些人在感到压力时会去散步或跑步，这似乎确实有效。

It's almost like there's a revving of the engine that drives movement.

这几乎就像是发动机的转速驱动着运动。

We could talk neural circuits, but it doesn't really matter what those are.

我们可以谈论神经回路，但它们是什么并不重要。

And when we're trying to suppress any kind of behavior, being able to channel that movement elsewhere seems useful.

当我们试图抑制任何类型的行为时，能够将这种运动引导到其他地方似乎很有用。

Or, as I was taught as a camp counselor for young kids, be a channel, not a dam, because trying to get a bunch of young kids to sit still is pretty tough.

或者，正如我作为幼儿营地辅导员所学到的那样，成为一个渠道，而不是一个水坝，因为试图让一群幼儿安静地坐着是相当困难的。

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

What you're saying is really interesting, so let me caveat everything I'm about to say by saying it's all speculation.

你说的真的很有趣，所以让我先声明一下我要说的一切都是猜测。

I personally don't know of research studies that look specifically at movement, but everything that you're saying makes total sense to me because the Latin root for the word motivation is to move.

我个人不知道有哪些专门针对运动的研究，但你所说的一切对我来说都是完全有意义的，因为“动机”这个词的拉丁词根是“运动”。

Right?

正确的？

So motivation is supposed to be the energy force behind all of our movements.

因此，动机应该是我们所有动作背后的能量。

It impels action.

它推动行动。

So to me, it makes sense that if I'm trying to motivate a particular behavior, being able to act would be, it is essentially channeling my energy towards doing something.

所以对我来说，如果我试图激励某种特定的行为，能够采取行动，它本质上就是将我的能量引导到做某事上，这是有道理的。

There are experiments that I can tell you a little bit about, Andrew, where to try to train self-control, they will have people, quote-unquote, approach or avoid an object with a joystick.

安德鲁，我可以告诉你一些实验，在哪里尝试训练自我控制力，他们会让人们，引用或引用，用操纵杆接近或避开一个物体。

So if you see something that you're supposed to avoid, you pull the joystick back, so you're creating psychological distance from the temptation, versus on the things that you're supposed to approach, like the broccoli you're supposed to eat, you're supposed to move the joystick forward.

因此，如果你看到你应该避免的东西，你可以向后拉操纵杆，这样你就可以与诱惑保持心理距离，而对于你应该接近的东西，比如你应该吃的西兰花，你应该向前移动操纵杆。

And there's some research to suggest that this kind of automatic, you're not actually moving, but you're taking action that's often associated with movement, that that can actually help improve people's self-control over time, help develop evaluations such that, okay, for dieters, for example, the chocolate cake is bad, but the broccoli is good.

有一些研究表明，这种自动行为，你实际上并没有在移动，但你正在采取通常与运动相关的行动，这实际上可以帮助人们随着时间的推移提高自我控制力，帮助进行评估，例如，对于节食者来说，巧克力蛋糕不好，但西兰花很好。

Having these movements towards the good stuff and away from the bad stuff does seem to improve self-control afterwards.

采取这些向好事物远离坏事物的运动似乎确实可以提高事后的自我控制能力。

Again, it's not quite what you're talking about in terms of actual movement.

再说一遍，这并不完全是你所说的实际运动。

I think there's also some research, again, I'm not exactly sure, but there's some research suggests that if you fidget, you might learn better than when you don't fidget.

我认为还有一些研究，同样，我不太确定，但有一些研究表明，如果你坐立不安，你可能会比不坐立不安时学得更好。

There's also some research where if you are taking notes with pen and paper as opposed to a computer, you can learn better.

还有一些研究表明，如果你用笔和纸做笔记，而不是用电脑做笔记，你可以学得更好。

And again, I'm not saying these just because I think they're so important, but rather I just think they're nice illustrations of exactly what you're suggesting, which is there's some really interesting connection between movement and motivation, which I think that's a truism, but I think these are really interesting examples of that.

再说一次，我这么说并不是因为我认为它们如此重要，而是我只是认为它们很好地说明了你所建议的内容，即运动和动机之间存在一些非常有趣的联系，我认为这是不言而喻的，但我认为这些都是非常有趣的例子。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

One thing I've been just grappling with for a number of years now is this concept that doing hard things makes it easier to do other hard things.

多年来我一直在努力解决的一件事是，做困难的事情会让做其他困难的事情变得更容易。

And on the one hand, that seems obvious, because it's a process, the learning to recognize the what I call limbic friction.

一方面，这似乎是显而易见的，因为这是一个过程，学习识别我所说的边缘摩擦。

That's obviously not a real scientific term, but that limbic system, we're more autonomically activated.

这显然不是一个真正的科学术语，但边缘系统，我们更加自主地激活。

We feel like, ah, we don't want to do it, or we're afraid to do something, and we have to push ourselves to do it.

我们感觉，啊，我们不想做某事，或者我们害怕做某事，我们必须强迫自己去做。

That's a process that translates across things.

这是一个跨事物转化的过程。

Sure, I fully accept that.

当然，我完全接受这一点。

But as much as I believe that getting up in the morning, getting outside, getting sunlight, maybe taking a cold shower, getting a workout in, can deliver people to a state of mind where they say, "Hey, you know what?

但尽管我相信，早上起床、到户外活动、接受阳光照射、也许洗个冷水澡、锻炼身体，可以让人们进入这样一种心态：“嘿，你知道吗？

By 8:00 a.m., I did a lot of hard things.

到早上8:00，我做了很多困难的事情。

Anything else that I confront during the day, it's going to be much easier." While I acknowledge that can be true, I also acknowledge from my own experience that doing a bunch of hard things seems to exhaust some sort of mental and/or physical resource that actually makes it harder to both avoid certain things and to push through hard things later.

我白天遇到的任何其他事情都会容易得多。”虽然我承认这可能是真的，但从我自己的经验来看，我也承认，做一堆困难的事情似乎会耗尽某种精神和/或体力资源，这实际上使避免某些事情和以后完成困难的事情变得更加困难。

And so obviously, this depends on how hard you exercise.

显然，这取决于你锻炼的强度。

Are you eating enough?

你吃饱了吗？

Are you sleeping enough?

你睡够了吗？

But assuming all things being equal, I'm just curious, is there a self-control resource center?

但假设所有条件都相同，我只是好奇，是否有一个自我控制资源中心？

It could be distributed across neural circuits, it could be psychological too, of course.

它可能分布在神经回路中，当然也可能是心理上的。

But does something like that exist, and is there any evidence for that in your work or the work of others?

但是类似的事情是否存在，并且在你或其他人的工作中是否有任何证据证明这一点？

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

There's two thoughts that immediately come to mind with what you just said.

听到你刚才所说的话，我立即想到了两个想法。

The idea that by doing lots of hard things, you learn that you can do hard things and do other hard things.

通过做很多困难的事情，你会知道你可以做困难的事情，也可以做其他困难的事情。

I think that's really interesting from a motivation perspective, because you could argue that what's going on here is that there's some kind of self-efficacy component, that when I've done hard things, my self-esteem goes up and my estimation and confidence to be able to do harder things increases.

我认为从动机的角度来看这真的很有趣，因为你可能会说这里发生的事情是存在某种自我效能成分，当我做了困难的事情时，我的自尊心就会上升，我对能够做更困难的事情的估计和信心也会增加。

And we do know that as self-efficacy goes up, your ability to do things, your motivation goes up, and your ability to perform also goes up.

我们确实知道，随着自我效能感的提高，你做事的能力、你的动力以及你的表现能力也会提高。

So we definitely know that self-efficacy is a really important thing.

所以我们肯定知道自我效能是一件非常重要的事情。

The other thing that you mentioned is the possibility of exhaustion.

你提到的另一件事是疲惫的可能性。

And I find this really interesting because it's a highly controversial topic in social psychology.

我发现这非常有趣，因为这是社会心理学中一个极具争议的话题。

There was a big boom of experiments in the 2000s that suggested just what you're saying, that self-control is kind of like a muscle, and if I use it for one type of task, I exhaust it for all others, and I have to wait in order for it to recharge before I can use it again, much like any other muscle.

2000年代出现了大量的实验，这些实验表明了你所说的，自我控制有点像肌肉，如果我用它来完成一种类型的任务，我就会在完成其他任务时耗尽它，而且我必须等待它充电才能再次使用它，就像任何其他肌肉一样。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

Also like any other muscle, if I keep using it, over time, it should get stronger.

也像任何其他肌肉一样，如果我继续使用它，随着时间的推移，它应该会变得更强。

And there were some evidence for both of those.

这两点都有一些证据。

Unfortunately, those experiments have, much like the Walter Mischel study, have come under attack for whether or not they can replicate, and the conclusions are a bit mixed.

不幸的是，这些实验就像沃尔特·米歇尔的研究一样，因其是否可以复制而受到攻击，而且结论有点复杂。

There are some analyses, they're called multi-lab experiments, where a whole bunch of labs get together and they try to see if they can replicate something, and that way you get rid of experimenter bias.

有一些分析，它们被称为多实验室实验，一大堆实验室聚集在一起，尝试看看是否可以复制某些东西，这样就可以摆脱实验者的偏见。

There are some multi-lab replications that have tried to replicate this effect.

有一些多实验室复制尝试复制这种效果。

So what you do in the lab is you do one hard task that requires self-control, and then you do a second one, and the prediction would be if you've done a hard thing first, then you should be worse at the second one.

因此，你在实验室所做的就是完成一项需要自我控制的艰巨任务，然后再完成第二项任务，预测结果是，如果你先完成了一项困难的任务，那么你在第二项任务上的表现应该会更差。

So one multi-lab experiment did not show that it worked, and another one showed it did.

因此，一项多实验室实验并未表明它有效，而另一项实验则表明它有效。

The one that showed it didn't work was led by people who conducted this research in the first place, so it was seen as very damning.

证明它不起作用的研究是由最初进行这项研究的人领导的，因此它被认为是非常可恶的。

If they can't get this experiment to work, then it doesn't exist.

如果他们不能让这个实验发挥作用，那么它就不存在。

And so I think the consensus in the field is that it doesn't actually happen, or at least we can't get it to work in the lab.

所以我认为该领域的共识是它实际上并没有发生，或者至少我们无法让它在实验室中发挥作用。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Could you, just for clarity's sake, when you say it doesn't happen, what specifically are you referring to?

为了清楚起见，当您说这不会发生时，您具体指的是什么呢？

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

Let's say we have you do a task where you have to write something down with your left hand.

假设我们让您执行一项任务，您必须用左手写下一些内容。

Okay, so this requires a lot of effort.

好吧，所以这需要很多努力。

It requires a lot of self-control to-

这需要很强的自我控制能力——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Left-handers out there are like, "All right."

左撇子会说：“好吧。”

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

Oh, sorry.

哦，抱歉。

No.

不。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No, the opposite hand.

不，是相反的手。

Yeah.

是的。

I'm just teasing.

我只是在开玩笑。

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

You're writing in your non-dominant hand.

您正在用非惯用手书写。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

Then we ask you to do some other really difficult task, like some task that requires inhibition.

然后我们要求你做一些其他非常困难的任务，比如一些需要抑制的任务。

So the one example is the Stroop task.

Stroop 任务就是一个例子。

So you see words in different color fonts.

所以你会看到不同颜色字体的单词。

You're supposed to identify the font color, but if you see the word blue in red ink, although the right response is that it's red because it's written in red ink, you automatically read the word blue, so you want to say blue.

您应该识别字体颜色，但如果您看到红色墨水中的蓝色一词，尽管正确的反应是它是红色的，因为它是用红色墨水写的，但您会自动读取单词蓝色，因此您想说蓝色。

This requires inhibition.

这需要抑制。

It requires you to stop your behavior, and research suggests that if you did the non-dominant hand writing first and then you did the Stroop task, your Stroop task should become worse.

它要求你停止你的行为，研究表明，如果你先用非惯用手书写，然后再做斯特鲁普任务，你的斯特鲁普任务应该会变得更糟。

In other words, you should have a harder time stopping yourself from just reading the word.

换句话说，你应该很难阻止自己仅仅阅读这个词。

Again, so if you've done the left-handed writing, then you make more mistakes, and you are slower in your responses at the Stroop task.

同样，如果你用左手写作，那么你会犯更多的错误，并且你在斯特鲁普任务中的反应会更慢。

That's what's known as the depletion effect.

这就是所谓的耗尽效应。

Because I got tired, and so therefore my self-control is worse until it recharges.

因为我累了，所以我的自控力就变差了，直到重新充电。

So one of these multi-lab experiments, they try something like this using different tasks, but I've given you a sort of an example of what kinds of experiments they run.

因此，在这些多实验室实验中，他们使用不同的任务尝试类似的事情，但我给了你一个关于他们运行的实验类型的示例。

And they could not replicate the depletion effect.

而且他们无法复制耗尽效应。

Another multi-lab experiment, though smaller in scale and not by the original authors, they were able to get the depletion effect.

另一项多实验室实验，虽然规模较小且不是由原作者进行，但他们能够获得耗尽效应。

So there's a little bit of just mixed evidence, and it's not clear whether depletion really is a thing.

因此，有一些混合的证据，而且还不清楚耗尽是否真的是一个问题。

Now, let me say, as a researcher myself, I'm in this really uncomfortable position where I actually think depletion is a real phenomenon because I experience it all the time in my own life.

现在，让我说，作为一名研究人员，我处于一种非常不舒服的境地，我实际上认为耗尽是一种真实的现象，因为我在自己的生活中一直经历着这种情况。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

Yet, I think the way that we have studied it in the lab hasn't been very good because much like the Walter Mischel studies, I don't think the original authors were very good at trying to explain what exactly you need.

然而，我认为我们在实验室研究它的方式并不是很好，因为就像沃尔特·米歇尔的研究一样，我认为原始作者不太善于尝试解释你到底需要什么。

What are the implicit decisions that they're making to set up this experiment that makes it work?

为了让这个实验成功，他们做出了哪些隐含的决定？

There have been some accusations of cheating and monkeying with the data.

有人指责他们在数据上作弊和胡闹。

I don't know about that, but my own take on this is I think depletion is real.

我不知道这一点，但我自己对此的看法是，我认为耗尽是真实的。

I just don't think we figured out how to bottle it up in the lab.

我只是认为我们还没弄清楚如何在实验室里把它封起来。

We do know that people believe that self-control is depletable, or at least willpower is depletable, and the more you believe it, the more you show these patterns.

我们确实知道，人们相信自我控制会被消耗，或者至少意志力会被消耗，你越相信它，你就越会表现出这些模式。

So there's amazing work by Veronika Job.

维罗妮卡·乔布 (Veronika Job) 的作品令人惊叹。

She has this little questionnaire that she asks, if you engage in a strenuous task, do you feel recharged or do you feel more tired?

她有一个小调查问卷，问你，如果你从事一项艰苦的任务，你会感到精力充沛还是感觉更累？

And those people who say they feel recharged act recharged after doing a really hard task.

而那些自称感觉精力充沛的人，在完成一项非常艰巨的任务后，实际上也表现得精力充沛。

So it's hard people doing hard things.

所以说，人做困难的事情是很困难的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm.

嗯。

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

But for people who say that, "No, I think it's exhausting," then when they're asked to do the experiment, they actually show the depletion effect.

但对于那些说“不，我认为这很累”的人来说，当他们被要求做实验时，他们实际上表现出了耗尽效应。

So there's some evidence that people's lay beliefs about willpower might really play a key role in whether doing hard things makes you tired or whether doing hard things recharges you.

因此，有一些证据表明，人们对意志力的普遍信念可能确实在决定做困难的事情是否会让你疲倦或做困难的事情是否让你恢复活力方面发挥着关键作用。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, I'm going to stamp the belief into my mind that doing hard things makes other hard things easier, because I do believe in the belief effects that you describe and that my colleague Ali Crum at Stanford has described for a number of different categories of thinking and behavior.

好吧，我要把这样的信念铭记在心，即做困难的事情会让其他困难的事情变得更容易，因为我确实相信你所描述的信念效应，以及我在斯坦福大学的同事阿里·克拉姆（Ali Crum）为许多不同类别的思维和行为所描述的信念效应。

I also happen to like exercise, and I happen to like the sorts of things that are supposedly building up willpower.

我也恰好喜欢运动，也恰好喜欢那种据说可以增强意志力的事情。

So I'm going to tell myself this, but your point is taken, which is that our narratives about willpower matter a lot for whether doing hard things makes subsequent hard things harder or easier.

所以我要告诉自己这一点，但你的观点被采纳了，那就是我们关于意志力的叙述对于做困难的事情是否会让后续的困难事情变得更难或更容易至关重要。

I'm curious about the specificity of these kinds of effects.

我很好奇这些影响的特殊性。

For instance, if people do any number of hard things, but they're told to pay attention to their internal process, like can they feel their stress go up and then go down?

例如，如果人们做了很多困难的事情，但他们被告知要注意自己的内部过程，比如他们是否会感到压力先上升然后下降？

Maybe they learn to do some long exhale breathing to lower their autonomic tone, which we know slows heart rate, et cetera.

也许他们学会做一些长时间的呼气呼吸来降低他们的自主神经张力，我们知道这会减慢心率等等。

Can people learn a process that then they can apply across different scenarios?

人们能否学习一个可以应用于不同场景的流程？

Because I think one of the fascinating things to me about school, about exams, about sports, or at the extreme, about screening for special operations.

因为我认为对我来说最有趣的事情之一是关于学校、关于考试、关于体育，或者在极端的情况下，关于特种作战的筛选。

We've had many people from the SEAL team communities and other special operation communities on this podcast, is this notion that maybe it doesn't matter so much whether it's cold water or it's exercise or it's matrix math.

我们有很多来自海豹突击队社区和其他特种作战社区的人在这个播客上，这个概念是不是冷水、锻炼或矩阵数学都没有那么重要。

The point is that you have to get into that place of friction and then recognize something about where and how your mind and body go and start to work with that.

关键是你必须进入那个摩擦的地方，然后认识到你的思想和身体去哪里以及如何去，并开始与之合作。

Because that's getting to a deeper layer of willpower and tenacity that no one thing we can say is the best tool.

因为这需要更深层次的意志力和坚韧，我们不能说任何东西都是最好的工具。

For instance, you're a well-trained musician.

例如，您是一位训练有素的音乐家。

Having been a failed musician, I suppose I'm still a failed musician.

作为一个失败的音乐家，我想我仍然是一个失败的音乐家。

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

I, too, am a failed musician.

我也是一个失败的音乐家。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I can say that not hearing the notes come out of the instrument that one would want to hear and that you're told should come out of the instrument is incredibly frustrating.

我可以说，没有听到人们想听的乐器发出的音符，并且被告知应该从乐器发出的音符是令人难以置信的令人沮丧。

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I think it's every bit, if not more frustrating than the inability to do something physical.

我认为这比无法做一些体力活动更令人沮丧。

So it's not really about what we're doing, is it?

所以这与我们正在做的事情无关，是吗？

It's really about being able to tolerate that friction, that frustration.

这实际上是关于能够忍受那种摩擦、那种挫败感。

Can people learn to recognize that state and push through that state, and therefore translate it across everything from sport, to instruments, to school, to parenting, to whatever?

人们能否学会认识这种状态并突破这种状态，从而将其转化到从体育、乐器、学校、育儿等各个方面？

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

I think what you're saying is really interesting, and I have a whole bunch of thoughts, which I'm going to try to get out in a systematic and organized way.

我觉得你说的很有趣，我有一大堆想法，我会尝试系统地、有条理地把这些想法说出来。

So first, again, I'm not an expert in this area, but we do know that people have differential distress tolerance, how much unpleasantness they're willing to put themselves through, and there are individual differences.

首先，我不是这方面的专家，但我们确实知道人们对痛苦的耐受力不同，他们愿意承受多少不愉快，而且存在个体差异。

As far as I know, it probably can be trained, and usually through exposure.

据我所知，它可能可以被训练，而且通常是通过暴露。

But again, I'm not an expert in this area.

但再次强调，我不是这个领域的专家。

What I can speak to with respect, specifically to willpower, is that willpower training paradigms have shown to have very limited success.

我可以尊重的是，特别是意志力，意志力训练范式已被证明取得的成功非常有限。

So for example, again, imagine you're doing the Stroop task and you're doing hundreds and hundreds and hundreds, if not thousands of these trials.

例如，再次假设您正在执行斯特鲁普任务，并且您正在进行数百、数百、甚至数千次这样的试验。

Another training exercise is you literally go home and you practice doing everything with your non-dominant hand as opposed to using your dominant hand.

另一种训练练习是，您实际上回家后练习用非惯用手做所有事情，而不是使用惯用手。

So these willpower exercises, you do them for a week and you come back.

所以这些意志力练习，你做一周然后回来。

Some experiments have suggested that they do in fact improve self-control.

一些实验表明，它们实际上确实提高了自我控制力。

Others say that they don't.

其他人则说不。

And on average, reviews of this literature have suggested that the effect is much smaller than you might hope, despite all the work that you put in, and it's very variable.

平均而言，对这些文献的评论表明，尽管您投入了所有工作，但效果比您希望的要小得多，而且变化很大。

So some people will see some gains, but they'll be small, but many people will see no gains.

所以有些人会看到一些收获，但收益很小，但很多人却看不到任何收获。

That's about willpower specifically.

具体来说就是意志力。

And this is at the point where I have to get a little bit more detailed.

现在我必须讲得更详细一些。

I think there's a difference between willpower and self-control.

我认为意志力和自控力之间是有区别的。

So willpower is one of the ways that we improve and enhance our self-control abilities, but it's not the only one.

所以意志力是我们改善和增强自控能力的方法之一，但并不是唯一的方法。

And so the other ones, I've already described some of them to you, that Walter Mischel discovered with the delay of gratification paradigm.

所以其他的，我已经向你们描述了其中一些，沃尔特·米歇尔通过延迟满足范式发现的。

So he wasn't studying willpower.

所以他并不是在研究意志力。

He wasn't testing whether children could just gut it out and use their own brains to inhibit their behavior.

他并不是在测试孩子们是否可以将其清除并用自己的大脑来抑制自己的行为。

Instead, he was looking at things like covering your eyes, or covering the bowl, or turning your head, or imagining the marshmallows to be puffy white clouds, or imagining that there's a picture frame around it.

相反，他看着一些东西，比如遮住你的眼睛，或者遮住碗，或者转动你的头，或者想象棉花糖是蓬松的白云，或者想象它周围有一个相框。

So it's not real, it's just a picture.

所以它不是真实的，它只是一张照片。

All of these different behavioral and psychological strategies that children were using, these enhance self-control without leveraging willpower.

孩子们使用的所有这些不同的行为和心理策略，都可以在不利用意志力的情况下增强自我控制力。

At this point, you could ask, what is willpower?

说到这里，你可能会问，什么是意志力？

And it's not actually clear in psychology what that actually means, but most people understand willpower to be the effortful inhibition or suppression of impulsive tendencies.

心理学上并不清楚这到底意味着什么，但大多数人都将意志力理解为努力抑制或抑制冲动倾向。

So there's a yummy piece of cake in front of me, and I'm really tempted to eat it.

于是，一块美味的蛋糕摆在了我的面前，我真的很想吃它。

Willpower or inhibition is the active fighting of that temptation, telling myself, "Don't think about it.

意志力或抑制力就是积极对抗诱惑，告诉自己：“不要想它。

Don't give in.

不要屈服。

Don't do something about it." And I think this is sort of the paradigmatic version of self-control in which you use your mental muscles to push down those ideas.

不要对此采取任何行动。”我认为这是自我控制的典型版本，你用你的精神肌肉来压制这些想法。

Those trainings are the ones I was telling are not very effective.

我所说的那些培训不是很有效。

But training some of the other strategies that we might have, like closing your eyes, or imagining a cockroach crawl across the cake, or asking yourself what your children would say if they saw you eating the chocolate cake after saying that you wouldn't.

但是训练我们可能有的其他一些策略，比如闭上眼睛，或者想象一只蟑螂爬过蛋糕，或者问自己，如果你的孩子看到你在说你不会吃巧克力蛋糕，他们会说什么。

All these other strategies, behavioral and psychological strategies or tools, as we might refer to them, those can be taught, and those can in fact improve your self-control.

所有这些其他策略、行为和心理策略或工具，正如我们所说的那样，都是可以教授的，而且实际上可以提高你的自我控制力。

So whether or not self-control is something that you can learn to get better at, I think the answer there is yes.

因此，无论自控力是否是可以通过学习来提高的，我认为答案是肯定的。

Whether willpower is something that you can get better at, there I am not so sure.

意志力是否是你可以变得更好的东西，我不太确定。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I have this running theory in my mind, which is anchored in neuroscience.

我脑子里有这个跑步理论，它植根于神经科学。

We know that areas of the brain are involved in more sophisticated processes where we can imagine ourself now, think about our past, think about our goals in the future.

我们知道大脑的某些区域参与更复杂的过程，我们可以在其中想象自己现在，思考我们的过去，思考我们未来的目标。

Kind of a high-level strategy formation definitely involves the forebrain, but it's a distributed phenomenon.

某种高级策略的形成肯定涉及前脑，但它是一种分布式现象。

I think everyone agrees on that.

我想每个人都同意这一点。

And then we have brain areas that we know from stimulation during neurosurgery, brain lesions, et cetera, that they're kind of like switches.

然后我们通过神经外科手术、脑损伤等过程中的刺激得知大脑区域，它们有点像开关。

It's like they make you want to eat.

就像它们让你想吃东西一样。

They make you want to mate.

他们让你想要交配。

They make you want to vomit.

它们让你想呕吐。

Any number of things.

任何数量的事情。

These are hypothalamic.

这些是下丘脑的。

They're sort of deep limbic and hypothalamic circuitry.

它们是深层边缘系统和下丘脑回路。

And I have this very crude idea that when it comes to suppression of behavior, or it comes to aspirational behaviors, like motivating to do something hard over time, that when we find ourselves at a friction point, like we don't want to do something we should, or we're having a hard time resisting something that we shouldn't, that we have to go a layer deeper into the limbic system and hypothalamus.

我有一个非常粗略的想法，当涉及到抑制行为，或者涉及到渴望的行为时，比如随着时间的推移激励去做一些困难的事情，当我们发现自己处于摩擦点时，比如我们不想做我们应该做的事情，或者我们很难抵制我们不应该做的事情，我们必须更深入地了解边缘系统和下丘脑。

We just have to come up with contingencies that are much grosser, like you said, like a cockroach on a marshmallow.

我们只需要想出更严重的意外情况，就像你说的，就像棉花糖上的蟑螂一样。

It's like sugar's good.

就像糖一样好。

We have an innate circuit for being drawn towards sugary things, fatty things.

我们有一种天生的回路，会被含糖的东西、脂肪的东西所吸引。

Yum.

嗯。

That's hardwired.

这是硬连线的。

So we go towards the vomit reflex a little bit, right?

所以我们稍微研究一下呕吐反射，对吧？

We don't want to get up and go to class because we're exhausted, and fatigue is real.

我们不想起床去上课，因为我们太累了，而且疲劳是真实存在的。

Fatigue is real.

疲劳是真实存在的。

Shuts down our forebrain, so the circuits are impaired.

关闭我们的前脑，因此电路受损。

Our hypothalamus is driving us to go back to sleep.

我们的下丘脑正在驱使我们重新入睡。

But we have to think about the fear of showing up in class for an exam and not knowing.

但我们必须考虑到在考试时出现在课堂上却不知道的恐惧。

It's the nightmare everybody's had at least once, right?

这是每个人都至少经历过一次的噩梦，对吧？

So I feel like the control strategy seems to be to go to a deeper layer of fear, disgust, et cetera.

所以我觉得控制策略似乎是进入更深层次的恐惧、厌恶等等。

How well does the opposite work?

相反的效果如何？

Like how good is aspiration for good stuff?

比如对好东西的渴望有多好？

Because those are also powerful drivers of human behavior, and I'm curious whether experiments have been done to differentiate between fear and love, if you will, to put it broadly, to allow us to navigate all sorts of circumstances.

因为这些也是人类行为的强大驱动力，我很好奇是否已经进行了实验来区分恐惧和爱，如果你愿意的话，广义地说，让我们能够应对各种情况。

But I love the idea that chasing love, chasing desire, all these great things, but there are times when we have to be like, "Oh, no, I got to imagine the cockroach or else I'll go back to sleep.

但我喜欢追逐爱情，追逐欲望，所有这些伟大的事情，但有时我们必须说，“哦，不，我必须想象蟑螂，否则我会回去睡觉。

I'll hit the snooze button."

我会按下小睡按钮。”

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

I think what you're saying, Andrew, is something super profound.

安德鲁，我认为你所说的非常深刻。

More profound than you might think.

比你想象的更深刻。

So for years, self-control researchers have assumed that the secret to self-control is actually doing exactly the opposite of what you suggested, which is turning off the hot system.

因此，多年来，自控研究人员一直认为，自控的秘诀实际上是做与你建议的完全相反的事情，即关闭热系统。

Because they argue that these limbic systems, these hot systems, these more "animalistic systems" are the things that make the temptation so powerful.

因为他们认为这些边缘系统、这些热系统、这些更“动物性的系统”使得诱惑如此强大。

And so by activating those systems, all we're doing is we're up-regulating the temptation impulses.

因此，通过激活这些系统，我们所做的就是上调诱惑冲动。

And so for years, and this is part of Walter Mischel's fundamental model, for example, and many others, they talked about making your cognitions cooler.

因此，多年来，这是沃尔特·米歇尔（Walter Mischel）的基本模型的一部分，以及许多其他模型，他们都在谈论如何让你的认知变得更酷。

In other words, shutting down the emotional system and thinking very coolly and calmly about the thing in front of you in order to make the right choice.

换句话说，关闭情绪系统，非常冷静地思考眼前的事情，才能做出正确的选择。

I think what's profound about what you're saying is that you've articulated two alternatives.

我认为你所说的深刻之处在于你提出了两种选择。

One is that I fight fire with fire, so if this thing is pulling me, I'm going to find something that's going to push me away.

一是我以毒攻毒，所以如果这个东西拉着我，我就会找到一些东西把我推开。

Right?

正确的？

And as you said, the example would be like there's a piece of chocolate cake and I imagine a cockroach crawling across it.

正如你所说，这个例子就像有一块巧克力蛋糕，我想象一只蟑螂在上面爬行。

There's not actually very much research on that.

实际上对此的研究并不多。

Most of the dominant models in self-control really talk about cooling your cognitions.

大多数关于自我控制的主导模型实际上都在谈论冷却你的认知。

You're told not to fight fire with fire, that you need to be in a calm and collected state.

有人告诉你不要以毒攻毒，你需要保持冷静和镇定。

The reason why I think what you're saying is true is that I have some other work looking at the other strategy, which is, you said, finding love.

我之所以认为你说的是​​真的，是因为我还有其他一些工作正在研究另一种策略，即你所说的寻找爱情。

So in my own research, we have shown that if we can get people to think about their whys, the purposes behind their decisions, the broader purposes behind what they're doing, they're much more likely to be able to overcome the temptation.

因此，在我自己的研究中，我们表明，如果我们能让人们思考他们的原因、他们决策背后的目的以及他们所做事情背后更广泛的目的，他们就更有可能克服诱惑。

So if there's a piece of chocolate cake in front of me and I'm trying not to eat it, if I only think about cake-related things, that could be really difficult.

因此，如果我面前有一块巧克力蛋糕，而我试图不吃它，如果我只考虑与蛋糕相关的事情，那可能会非常困难。

But if instead I ask myself-- And even if you said, "Oh, I'm not supposed to eat that because I'm on a diet," that doesn't have much magic to it.

但如果我问自己——即使你说，“哦，我不应该吃那个，因为我正在节食”，这也没有什么魔力。

It's kind of sterile, so it doesn't move me in any way.

它有点枯燥，所以它不会以任何方式打动我。

But if instead I'm saying things like, "I need to do this for my family.

但如果我说的是这样的话：“我需要为我的家人做这件事。

I need to do this to get to my children.

我需要这样做才能到达我的孩子们身边。

I want to look good for my children's wedding photos," or, "My children are looking at me.

我想在孩子们的结婚照上看起来好看，”或者，“我的孩子们正在看着我。

I want to be a good example," or all these other kinds of reasons, these higher order reasons that you might have for getting healthier, being fitter or whatever, not eating the cake.

我想成为一个好榜样，”或者所有这些其他类型的原因，这些更高层次的原因，你可能有为了变得更健康、更健康或者其他什么，而不是吃蛋糕。

We show that that increases the odds that people will avoid the cake.

我们证明这会增加人们避开蛋糕的可能性。

And we think it's because it's giving people meaning.

我们认为这是因为它赋予人们意义。

It's infusing the moment, as you say, fighting fire with fire.

正如你所说，它融入了当下，以毒攻毒。

Not with fear, but with love.

不是带着恐惧，而是带着爱。

These are higher order things that I care about, and these are what's going to motivate me to hold out.

这些是我关心的更高层次的事情，这些也是我坚持下去的动力。

What you're highlighting is, with your original example, something a little bit different than that, which is fighting fire by taking the positive and turning it into a negative.

您所强调的是，与您最初的示例略有不同，即通过采取积极因素并将其转化为消极因素来救火。

And my PhD student, Paul Stillman, and a colleague of his, Caitlin Woolley, they did some experiments in which they had people think about-- Usually when you think about self-control, you think about the short-term or long-term gains.

我的博士生保罗·斯蒂尔曼和他的同事凯特琳·伍利做了一些实验，让人们思考——通常当你考虑自我控制时，你会考虑短期或长期收益。

They instead had people think about the short-term losses of indulging.

相反，他们让人们思考沉迷的短期损失。

So what are some of the things, think about the sugar crash that you would experience if you ate the chocolate cake.

那么有哪些事情呢，想想如果你吃了巧克力蛋糕你会经历的糖崩溃。

Right?

正确的？

And they showed that that kind of served, much like you were talking about the vomit response, it pushes people away far enough.

他们表明，这种服务，就像你谈论的呕吐反应一样，它把人们推得足够远。

They're in the short-term mindset.

他们的心态是短期的。

They're thinking about short-term things.

他们考虑的是短期的事情。

The short-term is pulling them in, so they fight that with a short-term repellent, and they found that that's also very effective for self-control.

短期吸引着他们，所以他们用短期驱虫剂来对抗这种情况，他们发现这对于自我控制也非常有效。

So your ideas are almost antithetical to what most people would say the status quo in self-control research.

所以你的想法几乎与大多数人所说的自我控制研究现状相反。

But for that reason, I'm super excited because my own work is starting to challenge that idea, as is Paul Stillman and Caitlin Woolley's, that we might be able to use the limbic system.

但出于这个原因，我非常兴奋，因为我自己的工作开始挑战这个想法，就像保罗·斯蒂尔曼和凯特琳·伍利的想法一样，我们也许能够使用边缘系统。

We might be able to use our hot reactions.

我们也许可以利用我们的热反应。

We don't have to assume that they're going to be bad, or they're going to predispose us to indulgence and make us susceptible to indulgence, but instead, they might be what inspires us and gives us the motivation to do the right thing, and I think that is really exciting.

我们不必假设它们会变坏，或者它们会让我们容易放纵并使我们容易放纵，但相反，它们可能会激励我们并给予我们做正确事情的动力，我认为这真的很令人兴奋。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Fascinating.

令人着迷。

And I'm so glad you're doing that work.

我很高兴你正在做这项工作。

We had David Goggins on this podcast.

大卫·戈金斯 (David Goggins) 参与了这个播客。

David, author of "Can't Hurt Me," and famed for doing hard things all day long.

大卫是《不能伤害我》的作者，以整天做艰苦的事情而闻名。

I knew David before he had a book, before he was public-facing, and I can tell you, I met him at a meeting, and afterwards he said he was running to the airport, and I thought he meant rushing to the airport, because that's what that means to me.

在大卫出书之前，在他面向公众之前，我就认识他了，我可以告诉你，我在一次会议上认识了他，后来他说他要跑去机场，我以为他的意思是赶去机场，因为这对我来说意味着什么。

He was literally running to the airport.

他实际上是在跑去机场。

We were 16 miles away from San Jose airport, and he went in the back, changed, and he ran to the airport with his luggage.

我们距离圣何塞机场 16 英里，他坐在后面，换好衣服，然后带着行李跑到机场。

So he's always been that way, at least as long as I've known him.

所以他一直都是这样，至少自从我认识他以来是这样。

And I think one of the reasons David is such a shining example of motivation is that he is very open about the fact that he listens to negative comments from social media in his headphones when he runs.

我认为大卫之所以能成为如此光辉的激励榜样，原因之一是他对自己跑步时戴着耳机聆听社交媒体上的负面评论这一事实持非常开放的态度。

He's talked about that.

他已经谈到过这一点。

He tells himself what a piece of garbage he is if he doesn't do this.

他告诉自己，如果他不这样做，他就是一个废物。

He basically flagellates himself into doing these things.

他基本上是鞭策自己去做这些事情。

And any attempt to suggest to him like, "Oh, maybe you could take a more soft gloves approach," he's not hearing it.

任何向他建议“哦，也许你可以采取更温和的方法”的尝试，他都没有听到。

It clearly works for him.

这显然对他有用。

He's actually right now, I think he went back to the military.

他现在确实是这样，我想他又回到了军队。

He's also in paramedic school.

他也在护理学校上学。

I think he's probably becoming a physician, too.

我想他也可能会成为一名医生。

He's a remarkable example of that approach.

他是这种方法的一个杰出例子。

It's an approach that's very hard for a lot of people, and some people would say it's pathological.

这种方法对很多人来说都很难，有些人会说这是病态的。

I don't believe it is because it clearly works for him, and the alternative was far worse.

我不相信这是因为这显然对他有用，而替代方案则要糟糕得多。

He'll tell you that as well.

他也会告诉你这一点。

We could even talk about eating disorders, right?

我们甚至可以谈论饮食失调，对吧？

Anytime we have a discussion about suppression of the impulse to eat cake, there's going to be a subset of people out there that are saying, "Oh, so what you're talking about is eating disorders." Right?

每当我们讨论抑制吃蛋糕的冲动时，都会有一部分人说，“哦，所以你说的是饮食失调。”正确的？

Switching the contingency.

切换应急。

If I can avoid it, that's rewarding, which is associated with certain eating disorders.

如果我能避免它，那就是有益的，这与某些饮食失调有关。

I love the idea that there's this other side, that you could entice yourself with the positive outcome.

我喜欢这样的想法：还有另一面，你可以用积极的结果来吸引自己。

What I'm hearing you say is that If it's a short-term battle, like right now, think about the downside or the upside right now.

我听到你说的是，如果这是一场短期的战斗，就像现在一样，现在就考虑一下不利或有利的一面。

If it's a long-term battle, you want to think in terms of long-term outcomes, both bad and good.

如果这是一场长期的战斗，你需要考虑长期结果，无论是好是坏。

Is that right?

是这样吗？

Should we have all of those in our toolkit?

我们应该将所有这些都包含在我们的工具包中吗？

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

I completely agree with you, and I love the fact that you used the word toolkit.

我完全同意你的观点，而且我喜欢你使用“工具包”这个词。

My colleague, Ethan Kross, and I, we wrote a paper in which we talked about the self-control toolkit.

我和我的同事伊森·克罗斯（Ethan Kross）写了一篇论文，其中讨论了自我控制工具包。

Basically, we argue we have lots of different ways to enhance self-control.

基本上，我们认为我们有很多不同的方法来增强自我控制力。

We speculate that certain tools might work better for certain people at certain times.

我们推测某些工具在某些时间可能对某些人更有效。

We don't currently have a very good framework for predicting what would be the right strategy for this kind of person in this kind of situation.

我们目前没有一个很好的框架来预测在这种情况下对于这种人来说什么是正确的策略。

And so if your listeners are saying, "Wow, that totally would not work for me," that's okay by me, too.

因此，如果你的听众说，“哇，这对我来说完全不起作用”，我也没关系。

I don't think there's going to be one tool that's going to work for everybody.

我认为不会有一种工具适合所有人。

The self-control toolbox approach explicitly embraces the idea that different things are going to work for different people.

自我控制工具箱方法明确包含这样的理念：不同的事情对不同的人有用。

So if you're the kind of person who's very reactant, someone who says, "No, I can do it," then you might want to think about all the bad things people say about you because you're going to react to it and say, "No, I'm going to do it." But if you're the kind of person who tends to listen to what people say and you incorporate their perspectives and they're saying bad things about you, well then that's probably going to have a demotivating effect, right?

因此，如果你是那种反应非常激烈的人，会说“不，我能做到”，那么你可能会想一想人们对你说的所有坏话，因为你会对此做出反应并说：“不，我要做。”但如果你是那种倾向于倾听别人意见的人，你吸收了他们的观点，而他们却说你的坏话，那么这可能会产生消极的影响，对吗？

So again, the strategy that works so well for one individual may not work for another.

同样，对一个人有效的策略可能对其他人无效。

It may also be that certain self-control strategies work for certain contexts and not for others.

某些自我控制策略也可能适用于某些情况，但不适用于其他情况。

So for example, for me, getting started with the workout is the hardest part.

例如，对我来说，开始锻炼是最困难的部分。

I have a litany of reasons why I don't want to do this today.

我有很多理由为什么今天不想这样做。

And so for me, the hardest part is just getting on the bike or starting to lift weights.

所以对我来说，最困难的部分就是骑上自行车或开始举重。

Sometimes it's just putting on the workout clothes.

有时只是穿上运动服。

The strategies I use for that, I usually tell myself, what would my heroes do in this situation?

我通常会告诉自己，我的英雄在这种情况下会做什么？

So the, quote-unquote, "What would Jesus do?" I think is a very effective strategy in those kinds of situations.

因此，“耶稣会做什么？”我认为在这种情况下这是一个非常有效的策略。

You imagine someone that you really admire, or you imagine someone who looks up to you, and you want to be that person that you admire, or you want to be that person that people see in you.

你想象一个你真正钦佩的人，或者你想象一个尊敬你的人，你想成为你钦佩的那个人，或者你想成为人们在你身上看到的那个人。

That, for me, helps me get going at the beginning of exercise.

对我来说，这可以帮助我在开始锻炼时就开始行动。

But when it comes toward the end, when I'm just pumping out that last rep or I'm just the last minute of a really hard climb, these things don't work so well for me.

但当快要结束时，当我刚刚完成最后一次代表，或者我只是在一次非常艰难的攀登的最后一分钟时，这些东西对我来说就不太有效了。

For me, at that point, I just want to grit my teeth and get it done.

对于我来说，此时此刻，我只想咬紧牙关，把事情做好。

And so willpower might be a better strategy.

因此，意志力可能是更好的策略。

So I think we have to explore the entirety of the self-control toolbox.

所以我认为我们必须探索整个自我控制工具箱。

We have to, and through trial and error, find what works best for us.

我们必须通过反复试验，找到最适合我们的方法。

This is another reason why I would like to stress to your listeners that self-control is a skill that you tailor for yourself, and it's a lifelong journey, right?

这也是我想向你们的听众强调的另一个原因，自我控制是一种为自己量身定制的技能，而且是一个终生的旅程，对吧？

I'm not going to be able to get up here and say, "Do XYZ," and all of a sudden people are going to be amazing.

我不会站到这里说“做 XYZ”，然后突然间人们就会变得很神奇。

Instead, they have to try, and they have to fail, and it's in the failure where you actually learn the most because you say, "Oh, that's not for me," or at least, "That wasn't for me at this time." The reason why I find this approach really exciting and also hopeful is that I think a lot of people, when they fail at self-control, they just say, "Oh, I'm a terrible person.

相反，他们必须尝试，他们必须失败，而在失败中你实际上学到了最多，因为你说，“哦，那不适合我，”或者至少，“那此时不适合我。”我觉得这种方法非常令人兴奋且充满希望的原因是，我认为很多人在自我控制失败时，他们只会说：“哦，我是一个糟糕的人。

I'm never going to get this.

我永远不会得到这个。

I just have bad self-control, bad willpower." But instead, the learning approach, the toolbox approach, just says, "Okay, that tool didn't work this time," and failure represents an opportunity for self-growth and exploration and discovery, which makes it a lot more positively toned as opposed to, "Wow, I really screwed up.

我只是自制力很差，意志力很差。”但相反，学习方法、工具箱方法只是说，“好吧，这个工具这次不起作用”，失败代表了自我成长、探索和发现的机会，这使得它的语气更加积极，而不是“哇，我真的搞砸了。

I'm a terrible person.

我是一个可怕的人。

My goal's forever gone." And I think that's a really important implication of understanding self-control not as an innate skill, but something that you grow and cultivate over time with things that you learn.

我的目标永远消失了。”我认为这是一个非常重要的含义，即理解自我控制不是一种与生俱来的技能，而是你随着时间的推移通过学到的东西来成长和培养的技能。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 for nearly 15 years now.

你们很多人都知道，我服用 AG1 已有近 15 年了。

I discovered it way back in 2012, long before I had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since.

我早在 2012 年就发现了它，那时我还没有播客，从那时起我就每天都在听它。

AG1 is, to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market.

据我所知，AG1 是市场上质量最高、最全面的基础营养补充剂。

It combines vitamins, minerals, prebiotics, probiotics, and adaptogens into a single scoop that's easy to drink and tastes great.

它将维生素、矿物质、益生元、益生菌和适应原结合到一勺中，易于饮用且味道极佳。

It's designed to support things like gut health, immune health, and overall energy, and it does so by helping to fill any gaps that you might have in your daily nutrition.

它旨在支持肠道健康、免疫健康和整体能量等，并通过帮助填补您日常营养中可能存在的任何缺口来实现这一目标。

And of course, we should all eat high-quality whole foods, but most of us are probably not getting enough prebiotics, vitamins, and minerals, and AG1 ensures that those gaps are filled.

当然，我们都应该吃高质量的天然食品，但我们大多数人可能没有摄入足够的益生元、维生素和矿物质，而 AG1 可确保填补这些空白。

I get asked all the time by people if they were to take just one supplement, what would my recommendation for that supplement be?

人们总是问我，如果他们只服用一种补充剂，我对该补充剂的建议是什么？

And my answer is always AG1 because it's just been so critical for supporting all aspects of my physical health, mental health, and performance by covering those nutritional, what we call foundational bases.

我的答案始终是 AG1，因为它通过涵盖这些营养（我们称之为基础），对于支持我的身体健康、心理健康和表现的各个方面非常重要。

And I know from my own experience and from everyone I've heard that I recommended it to that they simply feel much better in a number of different ways when they take it regularly.

从我自己的经验以及我听说过的每个人那里我知道，当他们定期服用它时，他们会在许多不同的方面感觉更好。

If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get a special offer.

如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 以获得特别优惠。

For a limited time, AG1 is giving away a week's supply of AGZ, which is their sleep supplement, and a free bottle of vitamin D3+K2 with your subscription.

在有限的时间内，AG1 将赠送一周的 AGZ（这是他们的睡眠补充剂），以及一瓶免费的维生素 D3+K2。

AGZ is something that I helped design.

AGZ是我帮忙设计的。

It tastes great, and it's the only sleep supplement I take.

味道很好，也是我唯一服用的睡眠补充剂。

It has a collection of different things in it that has dramatically improved my sleep, both my slow-wave deep sleep and my rapid eye movement sleep, and I absolutely love it.

它里面有一系列不同的东西，极大地改善了我的睡眠，包括我的慢波深度睡眠和快速眼动睡眠，我非常喜欢它。

Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman to get a week's supply of AGZ and a bottle of D3+K2 with your subscription.

再次强调，通过 Drinkag1.com/huberman 订阅即可获得一周的 AGZ 和一瓶 D3+K2。

Is motivation something that needs warming up?

动力是需要预热的东西吗？

I've long chuckled at the fact that we understand that you need to warm up before exercise.

我们知道运动前需要热身，这一事实让我笑了很久。

Even with running, you got to jog a little bit before you sprint.

即使跑步，在冲刺之前也必须慢跑一点。

Certainly, we need warm-up sets before we do our work sets.

当然，在做我们的训练组之前，我们需要热身组。

Everyone understands this, but for some reason, I think people assume that focus And doing hard things mentally or creatively should be like a step function, where you show up to the work and you're like, "Focus." I like to think I've tried to spread the gospel of, look, it's going to take a little bit of warming up.

每个人都明白这一点，但出于某种原因，我认为人们认为专注和在精神上或创造性地做困难的事情应该像一个阶梯功能，你出现在工作中，你就像“专注”。我喜欢认为我已经尝试传播福音，看，这需要一点热身。

Your mind's going to flit to other things, and you can drop into a groove.

你的思绪会转移到其他事情上，你可能会陷入困境。

I think the really interesting research on both the hypothalamus but also these higher brain states, if you will, the models say that there's sort of an attractor model where your brain state is sort of like a ball bearing on a flat surface that's kind of moving around, and the ball bearing's moving, and then over time, it becomes more and more concave, and eventually, focus, you drop into a groove, but that takes time.

我认为对下丘脑和这些高级大脑状态的真正有趣的研究，如果你愿意的话，模型说有一种吸引子模型，其中你的大脑状态有点像平面上的滚珠轴承，它在移动，滚珠轴承在移动，然后随着时间的推移，它变得越来越凹，最终，焦点，你落入凹槽，但这需要时间。

It takes reps.

这需要代表。

It takes the mind picking up your phone again for the third time and then going, "I just got to get this thing out of the room." That focus isn't just like a switch.

你需要第三次拿起手机，然后说：“我要把这个东西带出房间。”这种焦点不仅仅是一个开关。

Motivation isn't just like a switch.

动机不仅仅是一个开关。

And I don't think people really, they either haven't heard it or they don't believe it, but everyone, at least to my knowledge, has experienced it.

我不认为人们真的，他们要么没有听说过，要么不相信，但每个人，至少据我所知，都经历过。

We're not robots.

我们不是机器人。

And so are there tools that people can use to either embed that knowledge or to move into focus states more quickly or more effectively as well as move out of motivated states?

那么，是否有一些工具可以让人们用来嵌入知识，或者更快或更有效地进入焦点状态，以及摆脱动机状态呢？

Has anything been studied about transitions between tasks as something useful?

是否对任务之间的转换进行了有用的研究？

Because we have dynamic lives, right?

因为我们的生活充满活力，对吗？

It's not just about the workout or just about the class or just about parenting or just about whatever it is.

这不仅仅是关于锻炼、课程、育儿或其他任何事情。

We have to move from one thing to the next, and these are very different brain circuits.

我们必须从一件事转移到另一件事，而这些是非常不同的大脑回路。

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

I think what you're saying is really fascinating.

我觉得你说的真的很有趣。

I love this idea of attractor states.

我喜欢吸引子态的想法。

In my own work, we don't have that kind of model, and we don't use the language of warming up.

在我自己的工作中，我们没有那种模型，我们也不使用热身的语言。

But we do know that there is a dynamic interplay between how you think about something and the motivation that you're experiencing.

但我们确实知道，你对某事的看法和你所经历的动机之间存在着动态的相互作用。

Right?

正确的？

So if a workout is, oh, another hour of pain, we're not going to get super excited about it.

因此，如果锻炼又是一个小时的痛苦，我们就不会对此感到超级兴奋。

But if instead you change your mindset about it, and again, this is the power of work that Alia Crum and folks who do growth mindsets think about, if you change sort of the cognitive orientation you have towards it, a different set of motivations can get activated.

但如果你改变你的心态，这就是阿莉亚·克拉姆和成长型心态的人们所思考的工作的力量，如果你改变你对它的认知方向，一套不同的动机就会被激活。

So if I say, "It's not an hour of pain, but instead of me becoming the better me," that set of cognitions, that set of thoughts, activates a different set of motives that comes to bear and can then be applied to the task at hand.

因此，如果我说，“这不是一个小时的痛苦，而是我没有变得更好”，那套认知、那套想法就会激活一套不同的动机，这些动机会产生作用，然后可以应用于手头的任务。

Now, that's not quite warming up, but in some senses, it is a warm-up.

现在，这还不算热身，但从某种意义上说，这是热身。

It's sort of finding the right set of thoughts that are working through your mind to maximize the motivation that you're experiencing at a given time.

这是一种在你的头脑中找到正确的想法，以最大限度地激发你在特定时间所经历的动力。

Another interesting thing to think about is that there's sometimes it's not just about the amount of motivation, but it's also the type of motivation.

另一件值得思考的有趣的事情是，有时这不仅与动机的数量有关，还与动机的类型有关。

For example, many sports have an offense-oriented component and a defense-oriented component, and they probably require very different mindsets, and they probably also require different motivational orientations.

例如，许多运动都有进攻导向和防守导向的成分，它们可能需要非常不同的心态，也可能需要不同的动机导向。

One of the most important orientations that we know from motivation science is an orientation towards nurturance and advancement, moving forward, gains, versus an orientation towards safety and security, preventing losses.

我们从动机科学中了解到的最重要的方向之一是培育和进步、前进、收获的方向，而不是安全和保障、防止损失的方向。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

And there's been some speculation, and there's been some research to support this, that having the right kind of motivation for the right kind of tasks enhances performance.

有一些猜测，并且有一些研究支持这一点，即对正确的任务拥有正确的动机可以提高绩效。

So if I'm playing offense, there's always that notion that you don't want to play not to lose, you want to play to win, right?

所以如果我在进攻，总会有这样的想法：你不想为了不输而打球，你想为了赢球而打球，对吗？

And that's particularly true of offense.

对于进攻来说尤其如此。

So in offense, you want to be about advancement, promotion, gains.

所以在进攻中，你想要的是进步、晋升、收益。

But when you're on defense, at times, it very well might be about preventing losses.

但当你处于防守状态时，有时很可能是为了防止损失。

And so if that were true, and again, that's not true for every sport, but if that is true for a particular sport, you might do better if you're in a more promotion motivational state when you are on offense and a more prevention motivational state when you're on defense.

因此，如果这是真的，那么，并不是所有运动都如此，但如果对于某项特定运动来说都是这样，那么如果你在进攻时处于更具晋升动机的状态，在防守时处于更具预防动机的状态，你可能会做得更好。

And if you get that mixed up, you won't be as effective.

如果你把这些搞混了，你的效率就不会那么高。

So when you get the match, research suggests that you enhance performance, but if you get a mismatch, you kind of have like not quite grooving, and you won't perform as well.

因此，研究表明，当你得到匹配时，你的表现会得到提高，但如果你得到不匹配的结果，你就有点不太适应，而且你的表现也不会那么好。

You're just not feeling right.

你只是感觉不对劲。

You're not feeling fit.

你感觉不适合。

There is research on regulatory fit, and it suggests if you can get task motivation fit, if you can get yourself in the right motivation for the task at hand, you'll have enhanced performance.

有一项关于监管契合度的研究表明，如果你能让任务动机契合，如果你能让自己处于手头任务的正确动机中，你的绩效就会提高。

Now, the reason why I bring this up is because research that I've conducted with my colleague, Abigail Scholer and David Mealy, we've shown that people have some insight into this.

现在，我之所以提出这个问题，是因为我与我的同事阿比盖尔·斯科勒 (Abigail Scholer) 和大卫·米利 (David Mealy) 进行的研究表明，人们对此有一些见解。

They know there are certain tasks that it's better to be promotion on this task, and it's better to be prevention on this task.

他们知道有些任务最好是促进这个任务，最好是预防这个任务。

And they also kind of know the thought processes that they have to engage in, in order to get there.

他们也知道为了实现这一目标，他们必须参与的思维过程。

So are you going to be thinking about gains, or are you thinking about losses?

那么你会考虑收益，还是考虑损失？

Are you going to be more in a sort of, again, advancement or security mindset?

你会更加倾向于进步还是安全心态？

They can tell us that if I think this way, if I think about security or I think about advancement, I will do better on this task, which suggests that people have some insight into not just the amount of motivation, but the right type of motivation to do well.

他们可以告诉我们，如果我这样想，如果我考虑安全或进步，我会在这项任务上做得更好，这表明人们不仅对动机的数量有一定的洞察力，而且对做好工作的正确动机类型也有一定的洞察力。

And so part of what you're talking about warming up might be that people are sort of trying to cobble together the right set of thoughts to get the right motivational type, not just the right amount, but the right type in order to do the task at hand.

因此，你所说的热身可能是人们试图拼凑出正确的想法，以获得正确的动机类型，不仅仅是正确的数量，而是正确的类型，以便完成手头的任务。

There may also be an additional complexity with the amount, because we know not enough motivation is not good, but we also know too much motivation is bad.

数量也可能会带来额外的复杂性，因为我们知道动机不足不好，但我们也知道动机太多也不好。

And so like Yerkes-Dodson rule, like the U-shaped functions.

就像 Yerkes-Dodson 规则一样，就像 U 形函数一样。

You kind of want to be in the middle for ideal.

为了理想，你有点想处于中间。

You want to be amped up to be able to do the task at hand, but if you have too much, you might choke because it means so much to you that you just overthink things, right?

你希望能够精力充沛地完成手头的任务，但如果你有太多，你可能会窒息，因为这对你来说意义重大，以至于你会想太多，对吧？

So There might also be regulation not just to maximize motivation, but the right type and at the right level for the task at hand.

因此，还可能存在监管，不仅是为了最大限度地提高动力，而且是为了手头的任务提供正确的类型和正确的水平。

So you could imagine your colleague, David Goggins, going absolutely crazy at a daycare soccer, like some children's soccer game.

因此，您可以想象您的同事大卫·戈金斯 (David Goggins) 在日托足球比赛中疯狂，就像某些儿童足球比赛一样。

That would be bad, right?

那会很糟糕，对吧？

So you need to scale back motivation, find that sweet spot.

所以你需要减少动力，找到最佳点。

So I think there is a lot of this regulation that people kind of do intuitively.

所以我认为人们凭直觉做了很多这样的规定。

Some people probably do it better than others, and I love this idea, I've never thought about it as sort of warming up, because it might take a couple of moments to actually get all the ducks lined up in a row so that the system is operating functionally, both cognitively, motivationally, biologically, at all levels to maximize performance, and I love this idea.

有些人可能比其他人做得更好，我喜欢这个想法，我从来没有认为它是一种热身，因为可能需要一些时间才能真正让所有鸭子排成一排，以便系统在认知、动机、生物学等各个层面上正常运行，以最大限度地提高性能，我喜欢这个想法。

You also mentioned this idea of switching, and there is an extensive literature in cognitive psychology, and it's called task switching, moving from one set of tasks to the other and rapidly switching back and forth.

您还提到了这种切换的想法，认知心理学中有大量文献，这被称为任务切换，从一组任务转移到另一组任务并快速来回切换。

There's something known as the switch cost.

有一种称为转换成本的东西。

There's a sort of delay and a decrease in performance at the very point of switching because there's kind of a cognitive inertia.

由于存在某种认知惯性，在切换时会出现某种延迟和性能下降。

You're still operating under the old set, and it takes some time to figure out how to switch into the new one.

你仍然在旧的环境下操作，需要一些时间来弄清楚如何切换到新的环境。

Sort of zooming out a little bit, I think that's also related to research on disengaging, right?

有点缩小，我认为这也与脱离研究有关，对吧？

So, I've been pursuing this goal for so long, and I get it.

所以，我一直在追求这个目标，我明白了。

Now it's done.

现在已经完成了。

It doesn't really make sense to keep going because you've already accomplished it.

继续下去并没有什么意义，因为你已经完成了它。

It's time to move on to something else.

是时候转向其他事情了。

There is some research to suggest that disengagement process is very difficult, and we actually don't understand it nearly as well as we understand persistence.

有一些研究表明，脱离过程非常困难，我们实际上对它的理解远不如我们对坚持的理解。

So because of research on self-control and grit, we know a lot more about persistence than we know about disengagement, and it's an area of research that is really important for us to get into.

因此，由于对自我控制和毅力的研究，我们对坚持的了解比对脱离的了解要多得多，这是一个对我们来说非常重要的研究领域。

We do know that disengagement is related to lots of positive outcomes when the person is unable to pursue a goal anymore.

我们确实知道，当一个人无法再追求目标时，脱离接触会带来许多积极的结果。

So, for example, if you're a woman and you always wanted to have children, but you're now past the biological age where you can have children, it's probably healthy to disengage from the desire to have children.

因此，举例来说，如果您是一名女性，并且一直想生孩子，但您现在已经过了可以生孩子的生理年龄，那么放弃生孩子的愿望可能是健康的。

Similarly, if we age out of a sport or we experience some kind of catastrophic injury where we just can't do it anymore or some window of opportunity has closed, research suggests that for people who are more adept at disengagement, they experience better mental well-being outcomes, and they're able to reengage in a new set of goals much faster.

同样，如果我们因年龄而不再从事某项运动，或者经历了某种灾难性的伤害，无法再继续运动，或者某些机会之窗已经关闭，研究表明，对于那些更擅长脱离运动的人来说，他们会体验到更好的心理健康结果，并且能够更快地重新投入一组新的目标。

But beyond that, we have to really understand more about the psychology of disengagement and how we know when to persist and when to disengage.

但除此之外，我们还必须真正了解脱离的心理学，以及我们如何知道何时坚持、何时脱离。

It's a really important question, but we don't know very much about it, partly because we tend to, in our culture, emphasize persistence and grit more than disengagement.

这是一个非常重要的问题，但我们对此了解不多，部分原因是在我们的文化中，我们倾向于强调坚持和毅力，而不是脱离。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Seems like what we're trying to do when we want to get motivated or when we're engaging self-control is we're trying to bring together state of mind and body and concept.

看起来，当我们想要获得动力或进行自我控制时，我们要做的就是尝试将精神状态、身体状态和概念结合在一起。

So there's the thought piece, like I'm a person who works out even if he doesn't want to, provided I'm not sick or injured, right?

所以有一个想法，就像我是一个即使他不想锻炼也会锻炼的人，只要我没有生病或受伤，对吗？

Because I think it's important to have those caveats.

因为我认为这些警告很重要。

I don't believe in the no days off thing.

我不相信没有休息日的说法。

I take a day off every week.

我每周休息一天。

I cycle my training, et cetera.

我循环训练等等。

But I also believe in state of mind and body, and one of the things that just isn't discussed enough among high performers, and I think in athletics, in academics, in music, et cetera, is that once you taste a really great workout, once you taste flow state, once you taste neuroplasticity, like you grind it out and you learn something and you now have mastery of something, there's this temptation to need to be in that perfect state in order to feel like you can do it at all.

但我也相信精神和身体的状态，而在高绩效者中没有得到充分讨论的事情之一，我认为在体育、学术、音乐等领域，一旦你尝到了一次真正伟大的锻炼，一旦你尝到了心流状态，一旦你尝到了神经可塑性，就像你磨练了它，你学到了一些东西，你现在已经掌握了一些东西，就会有这种诱惑，需要处于那种完美的状态，以便感觉你可以做到这一点。

Like as you ascend the staircase, that somehow that's going to happen more and more often.

就像你爬楼梯一样，这种情况会越来越频繁地发生。

And many people will assemble their entire lives trying to recreate those states.

许多人将毕生努力重建这些状态。

And I think one of the beautiful things, again, about people like David Goggins, we've also had Coleman Ruiz, another SEAL Team Tier 1 operator, DJ Schifferle, Jocko Willink.

我认为，关于像大卫·戈金斯这样的人，我们还有科尔曼·鲁伊斯（Coleman Ruiz）、另一位海豹突击队一级操作员、DJ·希弗勒（DJ Schifferle）、乔科·威林克（Jocko Willink）。

I think what's beautiful about that community is the way that they describe doing hard things, but actually, they were weaned in BUDS and in their other training from a place of suck.

我认为这个社区的美妙之处在于他们描述做困难事情的方式，但实际上，他们在 BUDS 和其他培训中从一个糟糕的地方断奶了。

Like as Jocko, who's a good friend of mine, says, "We start where it sucks, when your weapons are wet and you're cold and it's sandy." That's the starting line so that you completely recalibrate this notion of optimal performance.

正如我的好朋友乔科所说，“我们从最糟糕的地方开始，当你的武器是湿的，你很冷，而且是沙子的时候。”这是起跑线，以便您完全重新校准最佳性能的概念。

And I think that's something that we don't really have an analog for in the rest of the world, certainly not in academia.

我认为，在世界其他地方，尤其是学术界，我们确实没有类似的东西。

It's like get great sleep, maybe caffeinate just enough, be on the right place of that U-shaped curve, or inverted U-shaped curve, not too stimulated, not under-stimulated, and on and on.

这就像获得良好的睡眠，也许摄入足够的咖啡因，处于 U 形曲线或倒 U 形曲线的正确位置，不要过度刺激，也不要刺激不足，等等。

And I think while all that's great, it's one of the reasons I don't like the notion of optimization because ultimately optimization is about for that moment.

我认为虽然这一切都很棒，但这也是我不喜欢优化概念的原因之一，因为最终优化是为了那一刻。

And the idea that we're trying to attain a perfect state before we can do the real work, I think, is one of the more popular concepts about motivation.

我认为，在做真正的工作之前，我们要努力达到完美的状态，这是关于动机的更流行的概念之一。

So is it possible that we can rewire our thinking so that we start from a place of suck?

那么，我们是否可以重新调整我们的思维，从一个糟糕的地方开始呢？

Like maybe I should be doing my workouts at 3:00 a.m.

也许我应该在凌晨 3:00 进行锻炼。

a la Goggins.

戈金斯。

But I don't do that.

但我不这样做。

I like being rested, caffeinated.

我喜欢休息，喝咖啡。

Do you see what I'm getting at?

你明白我的意思吗？

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Because in terms of building real mental toughness, the ability to push into something when everything is pushing back on oneself, that seems to require crap conditions.

因为就建立真正的心理韧性而言，即当一切都在迫使自己前进时，有能力推进某件事，这似乎需要糟糕的条件。

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

I think what you're saying is really interesting because I do think we know from research that people are incredibly creative at coming up for justifications to not engage in self-control.

我认为你所说的真的很有趣，因为我确实认为我们从研究中知道，人们在提出不进行自我控制的理由方面具有令人难以置信的创造力。

So, I'm supposed to work out today.

所以，我今天应该去锻炼一下。

My gym clothes don't match.

我的运动服不合适。

Or, I'm supposed to work out today, but it's too sunny.

或者，我今天应该去锻炼，但天气太晒了。

I'm supposed to work out today, but it's not sunny enough.

我今天本来应该去锻炼的，但是天气不够晴朗。

It's raining too much.

雨下得太大了。

It's raining too little.

雨下得太小了。

People are remarkably creative at coming up with reasons to justify their indulging in their temptations.

人们非常有创造力地找出理由来证明自己沉迷于诱惑是正当的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

And so what's really interesting about what you're suggesting here is that you can just And again, I don't know that anyone's actually studied this, but there might be this bias, or at least we capitalize on a bias that things have to be just right for me to do it.

因此，您在这里建议的真正有趣之处在于，您可以再次强调，我不知道是否有人真正研究过这一点，但可能存在这种偏见，或者至少我们利用了一种偏见，即事情必须对我来说恰到好处才能做到这一点。

I think of this when I'm writing.

我在写作的时候就想到了这一点。

I think a lot of us have this idea that, "I don't feel like writing today.

我想我们很多人都有这样的想法：“我今天不想写作。

The conditions just aren't right, so I won't.

只是条件不合适，所以我不会。

I'll just put it off till the muses hit me and it's just right." And you learn over time that every day is going to be that not so perfect day, and so you just have to learn to deal with it.

我会把它推迟，直到灵感袭来，一切都恰到好处。”随着时间的推移，你会发现每一天都不会那么完美，所以你必须学会​​应对它。

And then once you get into it, as you were talking about earlier, you might warm up to a point where now it's actually optimal, but it takes some time to get there.

然后一旦你进入它，正如你之前谈到的，你可能会热身到现在实际上是最佳的点，但需要一些时间才能到达那里。

I think one of the things that's really interesting about what you're suggesting about the optimization culture may be that we're embracing this partly because optimization is an exciting idea, but also it's a great justification for not ever doing the really hard things because the conditions aren't quite right.

我认为你所建议的优化文化中真正有趣的一件事可能是我们接受这一点，部分原因是优化是一个令人兴奋的想法，但也是因为条件不太合适而不做真正困难的事情的一个很好的理由。

And again, I think people are incredibly creative at coming up with reasons why they shouldn't do the hard things.

再说一次，我认为人们在提出不应该做困难事情的理由方面具有令人难以置信的创造力。

In the moment of choice, it seems perfectly reasonable.

在选择的那一刻，似乎完全合理。

And that's one of the things that's really frustrating and challenging about self-control, because you mentioned this idea of aligning concept with body.

这是自我控制中真正令人沮丧和具有挑战性的事情之一，因为你提到了将概念与身体保持一致的想法。

When self-control conflicts are far away from us, so when I'm thinking about exercising more next year, but not today, next year, it's really easy to be able to say, "That's the right thing to do.

当自我控制冲突离我们很远时，所以当我考虑明年进行更多锻炼时，但不是今天、明年，我很容易说：“这是正确的做法。

That's the thing that I really want." But when next year becomes today, all of a sudden my mindset's in a different place, and that choice is really hard again.

这才是我真正想要的东西。”但当明年变成今天时，我的心态突然发生了变化，这种选择又变得非常困难。

It becomes really, really hard.

这变得非常非常困难。

The clarity that I once had is gone.

我曾经拥有的清晰感消失了。

So that makes it hard to follow through with your intentions.

因此，这使得你很难实现你的意图。

But what's also really frustrating about self-control is, as that moment passes and you're looking back at it sometime in the future, so now the date of start has come and gone, and now you're looking back on it, you have distance again, and the clarity comes back.

但对于自我控制来说，真正令人沮丧的是，随着那一刻的过去，你在未来的某个时候回顾它，所以现在开始的日期已经过去了，现在你回顾它，你又有了距离，清晰度又回来了。

And you're like, "Why didn't I do what I was supposed to do?" So again, one of the frustrating things about self-control is that it's distance dependent.

你会想，“为什么我没有做我应该做的事情？”再说一次，关于自我控制的令人沮丧的事情之一是它依赖于距离。

The right thing to do is really clear when it's far away, but when it's close, it's hard to figure out what I should be doing.

当距离很远的时候，正确的事情真的很清楚，但是当距离很近的时候，我就很难弄清楚自己应该做什么。

And research that I've done suggests that this exists in part because our minds shift in how we think about the event.

我所做的研究表明，这种情况的存在部分是因为我们对事件的看法发生了转变。

When the event is in the distant future, it's more abstract.

当事件发生在遥远的未来时，它就更加抽象。

Distant future, or it's happening to somebody else, or it's hypothetical.

遥远的未来，或者它正在发生在别人身上，或者它是假设的。

When it's far away from me, it's not imminent, I'm more likely to think about it in terms of desirability, why I'm doing it.

当它离我很远时，它并不是迫在眉睫的，我更有可能从可取性的角度来思考它，以及我为什么要这样做。

It's going to be much more abstract.

它将变得更加抽象。

But when that future becomes now, my mindset changes and I'm thinking now much more about feasibility, how am I going to do it, and much more concretely about what I have to do.

但当未来变成现在时，我的心态发生了变化，我现在更多地思考可行性、我将如何去做，以及更具体地思考我必须做什么。

And the problem is, a lot of these things that are hard, the whys are really positive, but the hows are really negative because they're hard.

问题是，很多事情都很困难，为什么是积极的，但如何做却是消极的，因为它们很难。

And so just at the point where I have to do the hard thing is when I'm thinking about why it's so hard the most.

因此，当我必须做最困难的事情时，我就会思考为什么它是最困难的。

And then that's why I say I want to do it.

这就是为什么我说我想做这件事。

And then again, time passes, distance passes, it gets farther away from me, and I'm looking back on it and be like, "But that was something I really, really wanted to do," because now I'm thinking about it in terms of why again, instead of how.

然后，时间又过去了，距离也过去了，它离我越来越远，我回头看的时候会想，“但那是我真的、真的很想做的事”，因为现在我再次思考为什么，而不是如何做。

So in order to try to overcome that, in my lab we've conducted experiments in which we bring them in, and we have them think about their goals and why they're pursuing their goals, or how they're going to pursue those goals.

因此，为了克服这个问题，在我的实验室中，我们进行了实验，让他们思考自己的目标以及为什么要追求目标，或者如何实现这些目标。

We then give them a self-control conflict that's unrelated to those goals.

然后我们给他们一个与这些目标无关的自我控制冲突。

So they're just thinking generally about why or generally about how.

所以他们只是一般性地思考为什么或如何。

So this is, again, the frame of mind that we generally have when things are far away, or generally have frame of mind when they're close.

因此，这又是我们在事物遥远时所具有的心态，或者在事物接近时通常所具有的心态。

You used the word warm up.

你用了“热身”这个词。

So we've essentially warmed them up, and then we give them a self-control task, and they have much better self-control when they've thought about whys than hows.

所以我们基本上已经让他们热身了，然后我们给他们一个自我控制的任务，当他们思考“为什么”而不是“如何”时，他们的自我控制能力要好得多。

And again, we argue that this is because we're simulating the mindset of when the thing was distant than when it was close.

我们再次认为，这是因为我们正在模拟事物距离较远时的心态，而不是距离较近时的心态。

But that's the problem with hard things.

但这就是困难事物的问题。

When they're in the distant future, it seems like a really good idea.

当他们在遥远的未来时，这似乎是一个非常好的主意。

And we can think about why we want to do it.

我们可以思考为什么要这样做。

When we actually have to do it, we don't think about why anymore.

当我们真的必须这样做时，我们就不会再考虑为什么。

We think about how, and the how just sucks.

我们思考如何做，而如何做却很糟糕。

And then, again, as time passes on, we look back, we're completely perplexed as to why we didn't do the thing when it's so clear to us that that was the thing that we really wanted to do.

然后，随着时间的流逝，当我们回顾过去时，我们完全困惑于为什么我们没有做这件事，而我们很清楚那是我们真正想做的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I would also add, and feel free to disagree, that the rewards that come after challenges to meet those rewards are the real rewards.

我还要补充一点，并且可以随意不同意，在挑战之后获得的奖励才是真正的奖励。

I've been going on and on online for a few years now that dopamine and other forms of chemical reinforcement that come without effort, while there are examples of those that can be healthy or innocuous, most of them are pretty detrimental.

几年来，我一直在网上不断地讨论，多巴胺和其他形式的化学强化是不费吹灰之力的，虽然有一些例子可以是健康的或无害的，但其中大多数都是相当有害的。

But there's nothing quite like rewards that follow intense, prolonged effort.

但没有什么能比付出长期努力后得到的回报更好的了。

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

It's really interesting that you mention this because I think when we think about self-control, we tend to think about it as a binary.

你提到这一点真的很有趣，因为我认为当我们考虑自我控制时，我们倾向于将其视为二元。

So again, if we're going to use cake as an example, so if I'm trying to lose weight and there's a piece of cake in front of me, usually it's a binary.

再说一次，如果我们要使用蛋糕作为例子，那么如果我想减肥并且我面前有一块蛋糕，通常它是二进制的。

I have this goal to lose weight.

我的目标就是减肥。

I also have this goal to eat the yummy cake.

我也有这个目​​标，就是要吃到美味的蛋糕。

And those two goals are in conflict, and I have to choose one of them.

这两个目标是冲突的，我必须选择其中之一。

And that makes the decision actually kind of hard because it's one against one.

这使得这个决定实际上有点困难，因为这是一对一的。

One of the things I think really interesting about what you're saying about doing hard things is that those are additional motivations that have nothing to do with losing weight.

我认为你所说的关于做困难事情的真正有趣的一件事是，这些都是与减肥无关的额外动机。

Those are additional motivations that fuel the long-term goal.

这些是推动长期目标的额外动机。

So I was mentioning before, it's really important to think about your whys.

所以我之前提到过，思考你的原因非常重要。

I'm using that in plural because it's not just the one why I want to lose weight, but it's I want to be healthier.

我用复数形式使用它，因为这不仅是我想减肥的原因，也是我想变得更健康的原因。

I want to be a good example for my kids.

我想成为我的孩子们的好榜样。

I want to show that I can do this.

我想证明我可以做到这一点。

I want to become the better me.

我想成为更好的自己。

All these different motivations There's no reason why resolving a self-control dilemma should be a fair fight.

所有这些不同的动机没有理由说解决自控困境应该是一场公平的战斗。

Why should you give the temptation a fair one-on-one challenge?

为什么要给诱惑一个公平的一对一挑战？

Instead, I think you're kind of highlighting that growth, self-discovery, confidence, self-esteem, all of these other things can also, if we can leverage them, we can become much more powerful against the temptation because we just find additional sources of motivation to push through the things that we really don't want to do.

相反，我认为你强调的是成长、自我发现、自信、自尊，所有这些其他的东西也可以，如果我们能够利用它们，我们就可以变得更强大来抵御诱惑，因为我们只是找到了额外的动力来源来推动我们真正不想做的事情。

And ironically, it's an upward cycle because the more you do it, the more positivity you experience.

讽刺的是，这是一个向上的循环，因为你做得越多，你体验到的积极性就越多。

And so it's a sort of a virtuous cycle.

所以这是一种良性循环。

Whereas you can also imagine the opposite.

然而你也可以想象相反的情况。

If you give up, then you say, "I'm not capable," and all those motivations start to collapse.

如果你放弃了，那么你就会说：“我没有能力”，然后所有这些动机就会开始崩溃。

I'm not going to become that person.

我不会成为那样的人。

I'm not going to grow.

我不会成长。

I am the person I was worried I was, and all these.

我就是我所担心的那个人，以及所有这些。

You can just sort of hear this negative self-talk, and you can see it becoming a negative downward spiral.

你可以听到这种消极的自言自语，你可以看到它变成了一个消极的螺旋式下降。

So I really find what you're saying really interesting.

所以我真的觉得你说的很有趣。

Not just the phenomenon, but to really focus on it and say, "I'm doing the hard thing not just for the one goal, but because I want that dopamine rush.

不仅仅是这种现象，而是真正专注于它并说：“我正在做困难的事情不仅仅是为了一个目标，而是因为我想要多巴胺的激增。

I want my system to learn how to take this on, and I want to prove to myself that I can do it." As I said, it shouldn't be a fair fight.

我希望我的系统能够学习如何应对这一问题，并且我想向自己证明我可以做到。”正如我所说，这不应该是一场公平的战斗。

We should stack the deck in our favor.

我们应该把牌堆放在对我们有利的位置上。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

If the temptation is limbic, come in with more limbic as well as high, high-level concepts.

如果诱惑是边缘系统的，那就带来更多边缘系统以及高层次的概念。

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Spread them out over time is what I'm hearing.

我听到的是随着时间的推移将它们分散开来。

Like, what's the benefit now?

比如说，现在有什么好处？

What's the drawback now of making the wrong decision?

现在做出错误的决定会带来什么后果？

And then extend that out to tomorrow, the next day.

然后将其延长到明天，后天。

Spending a little bit of time on these things can mean a lot.

在这些事情上花一点时间可能意义重大。

And in the end, what we're saying is a lot of time is really like a minute.

最后，我们所说的是很多时间实际上就像一分钟。

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's not like you have to sit down and do a journaling exercise, although I think from your work, it's clear that that can be beneficial.

这并不是说你必须坐下来写日记，尽管我认为从你的工作来看，这显然是有益的。

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

I do also think that it should get easier over time, because, as you said, we have these attractor states in our mind, and the first time we try to pull these thoughts together, it's herding sheep.

我也确实认为随着时间的推移它应该会变得更容易，因为正如你所说，我们的脑海中有这些吸引子状态，而我们第一次尝试将这些想法整合在一起，那就是放羊。

So you're trying to get all these ideas and these motivations and these thoughts and these biological systems, motivational systems, cognitive systems all lined up.

所以你试图将所有这些想法、这些动机、这些想法、这些生物系统、动机系统、认知系统全部排列起来。

The first time you do that, that might take more work, but the more you do it, we know the mind likes to practice and be in the same places.

第一次这样做时，可能需要更多的工作，但你做的越多，我们知道头脑喜欢练习并处于同一个地方。

I think more over time, it should become faster and faster.

我想随着时间的推移，它应该会变得越来越快。

So this idea of warming up, which I really like, that you mentioned before, the warm-up might get easier and easier and easier the more I do it.

所以你之前提到过的热身的想法，我真的很喜欢，我做得越多，热身可能会变得越来越容易。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, the concept of warming up came to me years ago when we would record neural activity in the brain of either awake animals or, in some cases, I had the benefit of seeing this in humans.

嗯，几年前，当我们记录清醒动物大脑中的神经活动时，我就想到了热身的概念，或者在某些情况下，我有幸在人类身上看到了这一点。

I have a friend who's a neurosurgeon, and if you look at an animal or a person doing a task, and you could use functional imaging so it's more non-invasive.

我有一个朋友是神经外科医生，如果你观察动物或人执行任务，你可以使用功能成像，这样它就更加无创。

Or you could use electrodes, you could use calcium imaging and monitoring the activity of lots and lots of neurons.

或者你可以使用电极，你可以使用钙成像并监测大量神经元的活动。

You don't see that the person or the animal does this perception exercise, and all of a sudden, the circuit that's involved lights up.

你看不到人或动物进行这种感知练习，突然间，涉及的电路亮了起来。

What you see is there's a lot of noise, what we call a lot of hash, not the kind people smoke, but it's like it sounds like that on the audio monitor.

你看到的是有很多噪音，我们称之为很多杂音，不是人们抽烟的那种，但听起来就像音频监视器上的那样。

As they repeat the task over and over, the signal becomes very, very clear, and you haven't made any adjustments to the equipment.

当他们一遍又一遍地重复这个任务时，信号变得非常非常清晰，而且你还没有对设备进行任何调整。

Sometimes you have, and you start getting great signal-to-noise because the circuit just, it's these attractor states, and the signal-to-noise goes way, way up.

有时你会，并且你开始获得很好的信噪比，因为电路就是这些吸引子状态，并且信噪比一路上升。

And I was watching this and going, "Well, these are simple behavioral tasks or perceptual tasks of telling a person, trying to say, 'Oh, the dots are moving up,' or, 'The dots are moving on average down.'" And you just see the brain goes through this transition state.

我看着这个，然后说：“嗯，这些是简单的行为任务或感知任务，告诉一个人，试图说，‘哦，这些点正在向上移动，’或者，‘这些点平均向下移动。’”你就会看到大脑经历这种过渡状态。

And then as people get sleepy, it gets a little noisier, and then it comes back again.

然后当人们变得困倦时，它会变得有点吵，然后又回来。

And I was like, "Oh, this kind of explains a lot of my experience trying to study or do things."

我当时想，“哦，这解释了我尝试学习或做事的很多经历。”

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

Yeah.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

One piece of knowledge that I'm really excited about that I'll just pass along.

我非常兴奋的一项知识我将传递给大家。

There's a guy down at University of Pittsburgh, Peter Strick, who's an exerciser.

匹兹堡大学有一个叫 Peter Strick 的人，他是一名锻炼者。

He happens to like doing exercise, but he also maps neural circuits.

他恰好喜欢运动，但他也绘制神经回路。

And he discovered that the brain areas that control movement of the large musculature, when those become active, they actually activate the release of adrenaline when we move, and the adrenaline then feeds back on those circuits.

他发现，控制大肌肉组织运动的大脑区域，当这些区域变得活跃时，它们实际上会在我们运动时激活肾上腺素的释放，然后肾上腺素会反馈到这些回路上。

So this is a reminder to anyone that doesn't feel like working out.

所以这对那些不想锻炼的人来说是一个提醒。

The warm-up serves to increase these chemicals that then bring more signal-to-noise in the neural circuits that control movement.

热身可以增加这些化学物质的含量，从而为控制运动的神经回路带来更多的信噪比。

So it makes sense why after five minutes of warming up, you're more motivated.

因此，经过五分钟的热身后，您会更有动力，这是有道理的。

It's not purely psychological.

这不纯粹是心理上的。

Anyway, I just throw that out there.

无论如何，我只是把它扔在那里。

I'm curious about the role of competitiveness.

我很好奇竞争力的作用。

When I was a postdoc, I was confronted with being in an area of science where a lot of tools were coming in.

当我还是一名博士后时，我面临着一个科学领域不断涌现的问题。

It was super competitive, and it was kind of a first come, first serve.

竞争非常激烈，而且是先到先得。

There was some creative work involved, but we all knew what the tools were, and we were all going hungry hippos for these, and I was in competition with really big labs, and that competition fueled me in a way that I wasn't familiar with.

这涉及到一些创造性的工作，但我们都知道工具是什么，而且我们都对这些工具如饥似渴，而我正在与真正的大型实验室竞争，这种竞争以一种我不熟悉的方式为我提供了动力。

I don't consider myself an innately competitive person about most things.

我不认为自己是一个在大多数事情上天生具有竞争力的人。

I won't be the guy who has to win at ping-pong.

我不会成为乒乓球比赛中必须获胜的人。

Certain things I'm competitive about, but not others.

在某些事情上我有竞争力，但在其他事情上却没有。

But what I noticed was having an enemy was incredibly motivating.

但我注意到，有一个敌人是一种令人难以置信的激励。

And in the end, they got some, and we got some, and we ended up being more or less friends at the end.

最后，他们得到了一些，我们也得到了一些，最后我们或多或少成为了朋友。

And it brought out our best.

它展现了我们最好的一面。

I like to think that it brought out our best.

我喜欢认为它展现了我们最好的一面。

Do people tend to kind of distribute along a normal distribution, or is it a binary distribution in terms of competitiveness?

人们倾向于遵循正态分布，还是就竞争力而言是二元分布？

And to what extent are people that are competitive, like we have the example of Michael Jordan, who apparently was competitive about everything, apparently.

人们的竞争性在多大程度上，就像我们有迈克尔·乔丹的例子，他显然在所有事情上都具有竞争性。

To what extent are those people the people we call motivated?

我们所说的这些人的积极性有多大？

Are they just really, really competitive?

他们真的非常有竞争力吗？

Because a lot of endeavors in life are not competitive, but a lot of them are.

因为生活中的很多努力并不是竞争性的，但也有很多是竞争性的。

Getting at the setting the curve, being the one student who could, or two students who can get A+ in the class.

制定曲线，成为班上唯一能够获得 A+ 的学生，或者是两名能够获得 A+ 的学生。

You and I, you went to Harvard, I'm at Stanford, and it's a very competitive environment.

你和我，你去了哈佛，我在斯坦福，这是一个竞争非常激烈的环境。

They're sort of the apex of competitive academic environments.

他们是竞争性学术环境的顶峰。

So how does competitiveness play into willpower and tenacity and self-control over time?

那么随着时间的推移，竞争力如何转化为意志力、坚韧和自我控制力呢？

Are those people just better at it But what happens when you remove the enemy, you remove the competitor?

这些人只是在这方面做得更好吗？但是当你消除敌人、消除竞争对手时会发生什么？

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

I think what you're saying is really interesting, and I too have heard a lot of these stories and have always thought they were very interesting.

我觉得你说的很有趣，我也听过很多这样的故事，一直觉得很有趣。

I personally don't know of any direct work looking at competitiveness and self-control.

我个人不知道有任何直接关注竞争力和自我控制的工作。

The closest work that I can think of in my sphere, and there might be other research on competitiveness outside of the work that I typically read, mostly has to do with achievement motivation.

我能想到的在我的领域中最接近的工作，除了我通常阅读的工作之外，可能还有其他关于竞争力的研究，主要与成就动机有关。

So achievement motivation is a lot like competitiveness in this.

因此，成就动机很像竞争力。

I think competitiveness actually often comes out of achievement motivation.

我认为竞争力其实很多时候来自于成就动机。

Achievement motivation is sort of like a recognition for doing really, really well on something, and it's usually really, really well relative to other people.

成就动机有点像对某件事做得非常非常好的认可，而且通常相对于其他人来说确实非常好。

So achievement motivation, you really want to be the person all the way at the top.

所以成就动机，你真的想成为一直处于顶端的人。

That's maximal achievement motivation satisfaction if you're number one.

如果你是第一，这就是最大的成就动机满足感。

If you're number two, you might actually get to that situation where now you're rivals and that fuels you to go higher and higher.

如果你是第二名，你实际上可能会遇到这样的情况：现在你们是竞争对手，这会促使你走得越来越高。

We do know that achievement motivation is a motivation like many other motivations that's probably normally distributed.

我们确实知道，成就动机是一种像许多其他动机一样可能呈正态分布的动机。

So the desire for achievement and achievement recognition will be stronger in some people and weaker in others.

因此，某些人对成就和成就认可的渴望会更强，而另一些人则更弱。

The thing to think about, I think, is although achievement motivation may be sort of promoted by our particular culture, when I think of motivation, I think of much more of the myriad or plethora of the different motivations that we have that might motivate behavior in just as productive a manner.

我认为，要考虑的事情是，虽然成就动机可能是由我们特定的文化所促进的，但当我想到动机时，我想到的更多的是我们拥有的无数或过多的不同动机，这些动机可能以同样富有成效的方式激励行为。

So I'm thinking about, for example, we know that belonging motivation is really important for humans.

所以我在想，例如，我们知道归属感动机对人类来说非常重要。

Humans as a social species, we survived because we were in groups and we had others.

人类作为一个社会物种，我们之所以能够生存下来，是因为我们处于群体之中并且我们还有其他人。

A human alone is not very powerful, but a human in large groups is very powerful.

一个人单独的力量并不大，但是一个人在一大群中就非常强大。

So we've evolved this motivation to be connected and socially intertwined with other people.

因此，我们已经发展出与其他人建立联系和社交联系的动机。

But I'm sure you know folks that are super belonging motivated and people who are not so motivated, and the people who are really motivated to belong to a group will do amazing things in order to belong to the group.

但我确信你知道那些具有超级归属感的人和那些不那么有动力的人，而那些真正有动力归属于一个群体的人会为了归属于这个群体而做出惊人的事情。

If they get rejected from that group, they will bend heaven and earth to get back in that group and just do amazing things.

如果他们被那个群体拒绝，他们会不遗余力地回到那个群体，并做出令人惊奇的事情。

And there are many other motivations too.

还有许多其他动机。

Motivations for power, motivations for control, you name it.

权力动机、控制动机，凡是你能想到的。

There's whole motivations for self-esteem, motivations for competence.

有自尊的完整动机，有能力的动机。

And so when I think of motivations, I try not to think of any one motivation, but sort of think about the aggregate motivation impelling, pushing us towards a particular behavior.

因此，当我想到动机时，我尽量不去考虑任何一种动机，而是考虑推动我们采取特定行为的总体动机。

So again, I was talking a little bit before about not giving the temptation a fair one-on-one fight, but actually bringing to bear all the motivations that might help you overcome it.

所以，我之前说过，不要与诱惑进行一场公平的一对一战斗，而是要真正发挥所有可能帮助你克服诱惑的动机。

If you know what motivates you, you should use those and activate those when you need them strategically.

如果您知道是什么激励您，您应该使用它们，并在战略需要时激活它们。

So if I'm someone who is competitive, then I might use achievement motivation to fuel my desire to do really hard things.

因此，如果我是一个有竞争力的人，那么我可能会利用成就动机来激发我做真正困难的事情的愿望。

But maybe I'm not that kind of person, and you see this all the time.

但也许我不是那样的人，而你总是看到这样的情况。

I do Peloton, and you see the Peloton instructor say, "If you don't want to see the leaderboard, get rid of it." For some other people, it's more about being on the bike with other people, and staying with the group, not being in front of the group, but staying with the group is what fuels them to do things that they didn't think they could do before.

我做 Peloton，你会看到 Peloton 教练说：“如果你不想看到排行榜，那就把它去掉。”对于其他一些人来说，更多的是与其他人一起骑自行车，与团队待在一起，而不是站在团队前面，但与团队待在一起会促使他们做一些他们以前认为自己无法做到的事情。

Again, just taking the idea of the self-control toolbox really seriously, different strategies are going to work differently for different people.

再说一次，只要认真对待自我控制工具箱的想法，不同的策略对于不同的人来说就会有不同的效果。

And so I think it's really important to explore and not just explore different strategies, but to really explore yourself, to really say, "What really does motivate you?" And I'm not sure that we always do know what really motivates us.

所以我认为探索非常重要，不仅仅是探索不同的策略，而是真正探索自己，真正说“什么真正激励着你？”我不确定我们是否总是知道真正激励我们的是什么。

I think a lot of times we kind of discover what our motivations are by saying, "Ooh, I like this, and I don't like this," but it's only through exposure.

我想很多时候我们通过说“哦，我喜欢这个，我不喜欢这个”来发现我们的动机是什么，但这只是通过暴露。

So to go and explore and figure out what makes you tick, and then to exploit and use those in your strategies.

因此，去探索并找出是什么让你做出选择，然后在你的策略中利用和使用它们。

And again, the constellation of tools that works for me may not work for other people.

再说一次，对我有用的工具群可能对其他人不起作用。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, LMNT.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 LMNT。

LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't.

LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您需要的一切，没有您不需要的东西。

That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in the correct ratios, but no sugar.

这意味着电解质、钠、镁和钾的比例都正确，但不含糖。

Proper hydration is critical for brain and body function.

适当的水合作用对于大脑和身体功能至关重要。

Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish your cognitive and physical performance.

即使是轻微程度的脱水也会降低您的认知和身体表现。

It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes.

获得充足的电解质也很重要。

The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, are vital for the functioning of all cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells.

电解质（钠、镁和钾）对于体内所有细胞（尤其是神经元或神经细胞）的功能至关重要。

Drinking LMNT makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes.

饮用 LMNT 可以轻松确保您获得足够的水分和电解质。

My days tend to start really fast, meaning I have to jump right into work or right into exercise.

我的日子往往开始得很快，这意味着我必须立即投入工作或立即锻炼。

So to make sure that I'm hydrated and I have sufficient electrolytes, when I first wake up in the morning, I drink 16 to 32 ounces of water with an LMNT packet dissolved in it.

因此，为了确保我有足够的水分和足够的电解质，当我早上第一次醒来时，我会喝 16 至 32 盎司的水，其中溶解有 LMNT 包。

I also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes.

我还会在进行任何体育锻炼时饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT，尤其是在炎热的日子里，当我大量出汗并失去水和电解质时。

LMNT has a bunch of great-tasting flavors.

LMNT 有很多美味的口味。

In fact, I love them all.

事实上，我爱他们所有人。

I love the watermelon, the raspberry, the citrus, and I really love the lemonade flavor.

我喜欢西瓜、覆盆子、柑橘，而且我真的很喜欢柠檬水的味道。

So if you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with any purchase.

因此，如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman，购买任意商品即可领取免费的 LMNT 样品包。

Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.

再次强调，请访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman 索取免费样品包。

One thing I've been playing with a little bit recently in my own life is just striving for immense consistency in certain things.

我最近在自己的生活中一直在玩的一件事就是努力在某些事情上保持极大的一致性。

Not trying to fail, but not focusing so much on peak performance, but just without fail, every single night, I have a particular practice before I go to sleep, and just no matter what, I show up to it.

不是试图失败，也不是太专注于最佳表现，但就是没有失败，每天晚上，我在睡觉前都有一个特定的练习，无论如何，我都会表现出来。

If I fall asleep, I get out of bed.

如果我睡着了，我就会起床。

There are times when I'm like, "Ah, I'm not fully focused on this right now.

有时我会想，“啊，我现在还没有完全专注于这件事。

I'm having trouble fully focusing on this," but for me, it's really become an experiment in consistency, and I think I'm two years and some ...

我很难完全专注于这一点，”但对我来说，这确实成为了一致性的实验，我想我已经两年了……

change now into it.

现在改成它。

And so it's tapped into this different part of myself that I'm not so familiar with, which is not trying to get the best performance out, right?

所以它利用了我自己不太熟悉的不同部分，这并不是试图获得最佳表现，对吧？

But that's great when it happens, but it's different.

但当它发生时这很好，但情况有所不同。

And earlier we were talking, before we went on mic, we were talking about abstinence versus moderation, and I'm curious what the data show.

早些时候我们谈论过，在我们开始麦克风之前，我们谈论的是禁欲与节制，我很好奇数据显示了什么。

And when I hear abstinence, obviously, it sounds like people trying to avoid certain behaviors, but I think we could flip it the other way, too.

当我听到禁欲时，显然，这听起来像是人们试图避免某些行为，但我认为我们也可以反过来。

Is it always the case that we have to show up to the thing or at our best?

我们是否总是必须表现出最好的状态？

Or like yesterday, I was supposed to do a HIIT workout, and I confess, look, it happens to me, too, folks.

或者像昨天一样，我应该进行 HIIT 锻炼，我承认，看，这也发生在我身上，伙计们。

I was due for a high-intensity interval training workout, and I was like, things were getting really compressed and I thought, "What would happen if I just did the eight rounds of this on the assault bike, but I didn't go all out, and I'm going to just do the first two, not lazy, but semi-lazy?" And I noticed by the third or the fourth, of course, my motivation started to increase, and I was like, "Oh, this is really cool." It was informative for me because it showed me where the barrier was.

我本来要进行高强度间歇训练，我当时想，事情变得非常压缩，我想，“如果我只在突击自行车上进行八轮训练，但我没有全力以赴，而我只做前两轮，不是懒惰，而是半懒惰，会发生什么？”当然，我注意到到了第三或第四，我的动力开始增加，我想，“哦，这真的很酷。”这对我来说很有帮助，因为它告诉我障碍在哪里。

It wasn't necessarily about the effort, it was about the concept.

这不一定与努力有关，而与概念有关。

So what's the deal with abstinence versus moderation?

那么禁欲与节制有什么关系呢？

When can we tap into this as a useful tool?

我们什么时候可以将其作为有用的工具？

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

I'm going to have a two-part answer, so it might be a little bit long-winded.

我将有一个两部分的答案，所以可能有点啰嗦。

I hope you remember both parts.

我希望你记住这两部分。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Take your time.

慢慢来。

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

So the first part is that generally speaking, psychology has tended to emphasize abstinence or consistency in self-control over the alternative, which is moderation.

所以第一部分是，一般来说，心理学倾向于强调节制或自我控制的一致性，而不是替代方案，即节制。

So we have a lot of self-control theoretical models which stress the importance of patterns over isolated acts.

因此，我们有很多自我控制理论模型，这些模型强调模式比孤立行为的重要性。

Once you have a pattern of behavior in place, it carries a special hold over you that a non-pattern does not.

一旦你形成了某种行为模式，它就会对你产生一种非模式所没有的特殊影响。

So let me give you an example.

让我举个例子。

So I have an Apple Watch, and it tells me if I've closed my ring for the day.

我有一块 Apple Watch，它会告诉我当天是否关闭了戒指。

And there was a point in time where that number was some huge number because I had managed to be consistent for a really long time, and let's say it was 500.

在某个时间点，这个数字是一个很大的数字，因为我已经在很长一段时间内保持一致，假设它是 500。

And I had 500 and I wanted that to keep going, and just knowing that I had that unbroken streak of 500 in and of itself became motivating to me above and beyond the desire to exercise and all the reasons why I wanted to do the workouts, right?

我已经完成了 500 米，我希望能够继续下去，仅仅知道我连续不断地完成 500 米本身就成为了我的动力，超越了锻炼的愿望以及我想要进行锻炼的所有原因，对吧？

So these theoretical analyses have suggested that one of the things that helps us maintain self-control is the knowledge of the pattern.

因此，这些理论分析表明，帮助我们保持自我控制的因素之一就是对模式的了解。

The pattern itself has strength over us in a way that doing something once every once in a while sporadically does not.

这种模式本身对我们有力量，而偶尔做某事则不然。

So if you're able to tell yourself, "I've done this every week for-- This every Sunday for every week or for the last X number of years," that has a special motivational power that perhaps even the same number of times you've done the activity, if you've done it more sporadically, it doesn't have that power.

因此，如果你能够告诉自己，“我每周都会这样做——每周日都这样做，或者在过去的X年里，”这就会有一种特殊的激励力量，甚至可能与你完成这项活动的次数相同，如果你只是偶尔做一次，它就没有这种力量。

Perhaps it could be just because you have the habit, perhaps the habit locks you into place.

也许只是因为你有这个习惯，也许这个习惯把你锁定在原地。

And it's possible that we have psychological and cognitive things that help us in place.

我们可能有心理和认知方面的东西来帮助我们到位。

Others have argued that we like the sense of completeness, the gestalt of having this pattern, whereas, again, the sporadic doesn't have that sort of orderly system, right?

其他人则认为，我们喜欢完整性的感觉，喜欢这种模式的格式塔，而零星的又不具备那种有序的系统，对吗？

But one of the things that you might recognize is that patterns tend to lead to really rigid behaviors, right?

但您可能认识到的一件事是，模式往往会导致非常僵化的行为，对吧？

So when I had the streak going, I was up at the middle of the night on a treadmill just trying to get my steps in, just because I wanted to keep the pattern, which was really stupid.

所以当我连续跑的时候，我半夜起来在跑步机上，只是想加快步伐，只是因为我想保持这种模式，这真的很愚蠢。

So they can take a life of their own, which in some cases could be good, but the rigidity of these behaviors could also be bad.

这样他们就可以结束自己的生命，这在某些情况下可能是好事，但这些行为的僵化也可能是坏事。

So it was this idea that there might be trade-offs associated with abstinence, like drawbacks with abstinence that got my student, Phuong Le, and I really interested in if there were other alternatives.

因此，正是这种认为禁欲可能会带来权衡的想法，比如禁欲的缺点，让我和我的学生 Phuong Le 真正感兴趣的是是否还有其他选择。

And the most common alternative is some version of moderation.

最常见的替代方案是某种形式的节制。

So at its extreme, abstinence is doing never indulging in the temptation or always doing the goal-directed option.

因此，在极端情况下，节制就是永远不沉迷于诱惑，或者总是做有目标的选择。

And moderation is generally doing the thing that's good for the goal, but allowing yourself to have the occasional lapse.

节制通常是做有利于目标的事情，但允许自己偶尔犯错。

Now, I want to be clear here, this is not the same thing as failing, because failing or justifying something post hoc, you're not talking about the pattern of behaviors.

现在，我想在这里澄清，这与失败不是一回事，因为失败或事后证明某些事情的合理性，你不是在谈论行为模式。

You make that decision in the moment and say "Well, the cake looks really good.

您立即做出决定并说：“嗯，蛋糕看起来真的很棒。

It's sunny out, it's beautiful, I deserve the cake," and you eat it.

外面阳光明媚，很漂亮，我值得这个蛋糕，”然后你就把它吃了。

That's sort of like a justification in the moment.

这有点像目前的一个理由。

When we're talking moderation, it's more kind of like I have the goal in mind, and with the goal in mind, I understand that indulging once isn't going to kill that goal, right?

当我们谈论节制时，更像是我心里有目标，有了目标，我明白放纵一次并不会扼杀这个目标，对吗？

So it's not that I don't have the goal in mind and I just want the temptation.

所以我并不是没有目标，只是想要诱惑。

I have the goal in mind, I'm integrating it with the indulgence and saying, "This one instance isn't going to destroy my goal." It's a lot like saying eating chocolate cake once isn't going to make you fat, or eating a salad for lunch one day isn't going to allow you to lose weight.

我心里有目标，我把它与放纵结合起来，并说：“这一次不会破坏我的目标。”这很像说吃一次巧克力蛋糕不会让你发胖，或者有一天午餐吃沙拉不会让你减肥。

What matters is the sustained behavior over time.

重要的是随着时间的推移，持续的行为。

But you have choices about that pattern.

但你可以选择该模式。

You can either have it be completely consistent one thing, or you can have cheat days.

你可以让它完全一致的一件事，或者你可以有作弊日。

And so we were really interested in some of the trade-offs.

所以我们对一些权衡非常感兴趣。

You think about some of the trade-offs, abstinence, as I just mentioned, leads to really rigid behaviors.

你想想一些权衡，正如我刚才提到的，禁欲会导致非常严格的行为。

But computationally, the choice is already pre-decided for you.

但从计算角度来看，选择已经为你预先决定了。

You sit down, it's Monday, 5:00, that's your exercise time.

你坐下来，现在是星期一，5:00，这是你的锻炼时间。

You don't have a choice, right?

你没有选择，对吧？

If you're following an abstinence strategy, the choice is made for you.

如果您遵循禁欲策略，那么我们会为您做出选择。

It's really easy.

这真的很容易。

So it's computationally simple.

所以计算起来很简单。

In principle, if you can hold onto that, it makes much more rapid progress because you never take a step back.

原则上，如果你能坚持下去，进步会更快，因为你永远不会后退一步。

You're always going towards the goal.

你总是朝着目标前进。

But there are some trade-offs with this, like the rigidity, right?

但这需要一些权衡，比如刚性，对吗？

So it's Monday, 5:00 PM, it's your daughter's wedding, but you're getting the workout in.

现在是星期一下午 5:00，这是您女儿的婚礼，但您正在锻炼身体。

Why, right?

为什么，对吧？

That lack of flexibility is kind of crazy.

缺乏灵活性有点疯狂。

Once the pattern is broken, it's all or none.

一旦模式被打破，要么全有，要么全无。

It's gone So if you're abstinent and you have a lapse, the goal is done, right?

它消失了 所以如果你禁欲并且有失误，目标就完成了，对吧？

You can't go back.

你不能回去。

My point here is that there are some trade-offs between abstinence and moderation, and we are really interested in trying to understand why people choose one versus the other, for what kinds of tasks, what kinds of goals, and with the idea that maybe sometimes we're picking the wrong pattern for the goal at hand.

我在这里的观点是，节制和节制之间存在一些权衡，我们真正感兴趣的是试图理解为什么人们选择其中一种而不是另一种，针对什么样的任务，什么样的目标，以及我们有时会为手头的目标选择错误的模式。

Right?

正确的？

So, for example, if I'm trying to be faithful to my spouse, abstinence is probably better than indulgence because the thing about being faithful to your spouse is that if you have the one lapse, you are no longer a faithful spouse.

因此，举例来说，如果我想对我的配偶忠诚，那么禁欲可能比放纵更好，因为对你的配偶忠诚的问题是，如果你有一个失误，你就不再是一个忠诚的配偶。

Right?

正确的？

Sort of by definition, that's a situation in which you have failed and that goal is gone forever.

从定义上来说，这是一种你失败了并且目标永远消失的情况。

On the other hand, for a student studying for an exam, they can watch a little Netflix, or they can study for their exam.

另一方面，对于准备考试的学生来说，他们可以看一点Netflix，或者他们可以为考试而学习。

Normally, those two types of conflicts, those two goals aren't in conflict.

通常，这两种类型的冲突，这两个目标并不冲突。

But if it's the night before an exam, now they're in conflict.

但如果是考试前一天晚上，他们现在就会发生冲突。

Do they exclusively study, or do they give themselves a study break?

他们是专心学习，还是给自己一个学习休息时间？

In that kind of situation, a study break might be okay because taking five minutes for a study break doesn't mean that you fail at studying.

在这种情况下，学习休息可能没问题，因为休息五分钟并不意味着你学习失败。

So we're kind of interested in whether people pick certain kinds of strategies for certain kinds of conflicts, and also whether certain personality types might prefer certain kinds of strategies.

因此，我们感兴趣的是人们是否会针对某些类型的冲突选择某些类型的策略，以及某些性格类型是否可能更喜欢某些类型的策略。

So if I'm the kind of person who likes to keep things black and white, abstinence might be the way to go.

因此，如果我是那种喜欢把事情非黑即白的人，那么禁欲可能是最好的选择。

If I'm the kind of person who likes variety, then moderation might be better.

如果我是那种喜欢多样化的人，那么适度可能会更好。

Another thing that we're really interested in is why people pick the wrong one, and one of the things that we've been finding, some initial findings that we have from our lab, is that when you present people with targets, other people who have engaged in abstinence versus moderation, at least the participants that we've asked generally say that the person who engaged in abstinence has better self-control than the person who engaged in moderation.

我们真正感兴趣的另一件事是为什么人们会选择错误的选择，我们一直在实验室中发现的一些初步发现是，当你向人们展示目标时，其他进行禁欲与节制的人，至少我们询问的参与者普遍表示，进行禁欲的人比进行节制的人有更好的自我控制能力。

Which is interesting to us because actually, moderation's more difficult.

这对我们来说很有趣，因为实际上，节制更困难。

So you could've said that the moderation person has more self-control than the person who's abstinent because that's, in principle, the easier decision.

所以你可以说，节制的人比禁欲的人有更多的自制力，因为原则上来说，这是更容易做出的决定。

But this suggests to us is that there may be a bias, that when people are saying, "Okay, I want to go on a diet.

但这向我们表明，当人们说：“好吧，我想节食时，可能存在偏见。

I want to exercise more.

我想多运动。

I want to do whatever," they might be defaulting to abstinence when in fact they might be better off doing some version of moderation.

我想做任何事”，他们可能会默认禁欲，而事实上，他们最好进行某种形式的节制。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Fascinating.

令人着迷。

Two of the best pieces of advice that I ever got for my academic career, but turned out to be valuable for all sorts of long-term goal pursuits, and just life, is my dad, who's a scientist, he said when I really hit the gas pedal on my academics, because I was coming from behind coming out of high school, he said, "Listen, you got to be a long-distance runner in this game.

我在学术生涯中得到的两条最好的建议，但事实证明对各种长期目标追求和生活都很有价值，是我的父亲，他是一名科学家，当我真正踩下学业的油门时，他说，因为我从高中毕业，后来居上，他说，“听着，你必须在这场比赛中成为一名长跑运动员。

There is a thing called burnout, and you just have to figure out what you can do consistently." And then, a neurologist at Berkeley, who was also in the psychology department, Bob Knight, one time I asked him, "What's the key to this whole thing?" And he said, "Find a non-destructive way to reset yourself each week, and figure out what you can invest five or six days per week, and update that every five years or as your personal life changes." So what he was saying was, what you can do as a graduate student is different than when you're a postdoc and when you have a family.

有一种叫做倦怠的事情，你只需要弄清楚你可以坚持不懈地做什么。”然后，有一次，伯克利大学的神经学家、心理学系的鲍勃·奈特 (Bob Knight)，我问他：“整件事的关键是什么？”他说，“每周找到一种非破坏性的方式来重置自己，找出每周五到六天可以投资的东西，并每五年或随着你个人生活的变化进行更新。”所以他的意思是，作为一名研究生，你能做的事情与当你是一名博士后、当你有家庭时不同。

And I said, "What's your non-destructive thing?" And he goes, "Completely mindless activities, in particular, fishing." I don't want to insult any of the fishermen and women in the audience.

我说：“你的非破坏性东西是什么？”他说：“完全是无意识的活动，尤其是钓鱼。”我不想侮辱观众中的任何渔民和妇女。

I have a lot of fishermen on my mom's side.

我妈妈那边有很多渔民。

But he just would go fishing, not think about science, not think about anything.

但他只是去钓鱼，不考虑科学，不考虑任何事情。

I don't know if he did it with other people or not, and that was his reset.

我不知道他是否和其他人一起做过，那是他的重置。

And I think as simple as that advice is, it was really valuable to me, which is why I'm saying it now, because he was laying out a pattern.

我认为尽管这个建议很简单，但它对我来说确实很有价值，这就是我现在这么说的原因，因为他正在制定一个模式。

The week is a fundamental unit of work, and you have to figure out how to reset so you can continue to come back and be that long-distance runner.

一周是一个基本的工作单位，你必须弄清楚如何重新调整，这样你才能继续回来，成为那个长跑运动员。

Otherwise, burnout is real.

否则，倦怠是真实的。

Physical burnout, mental burnout, and what's not sustainable is not sustainable.

身体倦怠、精神倦怠，不可持续的就不可持续。

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

I think one of the ideas that we've been playing around with is this notion that there might be sort of two modes of goal pursuit that people have.

我认为我们一直在讨论的想法之一是人们可能有两种目标追求模式。

One of them is the single goal.

其中之一是单一目标。

Like, here's the most important thing in my life, and I'm going to sacrifice everything for it.

就像，这是我生命中最重要的事情，我将为此牺牲一切。

And again, that's very effective for getting things done, and I think some of the most highly productive, highly successful people specialize in that mode.

再说一遍，这对于完成工作非常有效，而且我认为一些生产力最高、最成功的人专门从事这种模式。

And I think our society's actually really good at advancing that idea.

我认为我们的社会实际上非常擅长推进这一想法。

They say, study when you're young, throw everything into it.

人们说，年轻时读书，全力以赴。

That's not important.

那不重要。

Put your effort into this.

把你的努力投入到这件事上。

We're really a very goal-directed society, and I think we're really raising our kids to be that way, saying, "You got to do XYZ.

我们确实是一个非常以目标为导向的社会，我认为我们确实在以这种方式抚养我们的孩子，并说：“你必须做 XYZ。

So if you want to be an athlete, you have to do this, this, this.

所以如果你想成为一名运动员，你必须这样做，这样，这样。

If you want to be a scientist, you have to do this, this, this.

如果你想成为一名科学家，你必须这样做，这样，这样。

You have to be a doctor, this, this, this, this." So we kind of track them really quickly, and then everything becomes about that singular goal.

你必须成为一名医生，这个，这个，这个，这个。”因此，我们可以非常快速地跟踪它们，然后一切都围绕着这个单一目标。

But humans, we never pursue one goal at a time.

但人类，我们从来不会一次只追求一个目标。

The truth is, we are pursuing in our lives multiple goals.

事实上，我们在生活中追求多个目标。

So I have a goal to work, obviously, but I also want to spend time with family and friends.

因此，显然我有一个工作目标，但我也想与家人和朋友共度时光。

I want to exercise.

我想锻炼身体。

I want to watch out for my health.

我想注意自己的健康。

I want to indulge my artistic side.

我想尽情发挥我的艺术一面。

All these different goals, they're kind of what my friend Abby calls invisible goals.

所有这些不同的目标，我的朋友艾比称之为隐形目标。

They're goals that we're pursuing, but we aren't necessarily aware that we're pursuing them.

它们是我们正在追求的目标，但我们不一定意识到我们正在追求它们。

And as a result, we're not actually maximizing and giving them their fair due diligence for us to be the well-rounded humans that we want to be.

结果，我们实际上并没有最大化并给予他们公平的尽职调查，让我们成为我们想成为的全面发展的人。

So you were mentioning balancing work and non-work.

所以你提到平衡工作和非工作。

I think this is fundamental, but when we think about what is success, we go back into that single goal mind, that single goal mode.

我认为这是根本性的，但是当我们思考什么是成功时，我们又回到了单一目标的思维、单一目标的模式。

And one of the things, again, I think that's why people prefer abstinence over moderation.

其中之一，我认为这就是为什么人们更喜欢禁欲而不是节制。

They're thinking about the one goal that is most important to them, and they're going to subordinate all the other goals, sacrifice all the other goals that they have for that one goal.

他们正在考虑对他们来说最重要的一个目标，并且他们会将所有其他目标置于次要地位，为了该目标而牺牲他们拥有的所有其他目标。

But there might be something really healthy and wholesome about understanding that you're actually pursuing multiple goals and then realizing that you have to divvy your effort among them.

但是，了解自己实际上在追求多个目标，然后意识到必须在这些目标之间分配努力，可能是非常健康和有益的。

And doing so systematically might end up helping all the goals in a way that's better than just pursuing the one and sacrificing all the others.

系统地这样做可能最终会以一种比仅仅追求一个目标而牺牲所有其他目标更好的方式帮助实现所有目标。

In other words, the gain from pursuing all of them might be more than the gain of pursuing the one.

换句话说，追求所有这些的收益可能比追求其中一个的收益还要多。

And I think the philosophies of abstinence versus moderation kind of speak to that tension between do I pursue the one that's really important versus do I spread my effort among the many?

我认为禁欲与节制的哲学有点说明了我是否追求真正重要的东西与我是否将我的努力分散到许多人之间的紧张关系？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Certainly in the United States, we love to revere the examples of extreme performance, Michael Jordan, Mike Tyson, amazing gymnasts, Yo-Yo Ma, all these people.

当然，在美国，我们喜欢崇敬极限表现的例子，迈克尔·乔丹、迈克·泰森、出色的体操运动员、马友友，所有这些人。

But if you talk to them or people from the tier one operations community, they'll tell you there was very little balance.

但如果您与他们或来自一级运营社区的人员交谈，他们会告诉您平衡性非常差。

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Certainly when they were ascending the ladder.

当然是当他们爬上梯子的时候。

But even to maintain high performance, very, very few people can do that over time and have a stable and healthy personal life.

但即使是保持高绩效，随着时间的推移，也很少有人能做到这一点，并拥有稳定健康的个人生活。

Some can.

有些可以。

Many can't.

很多人不能。

These days, there seems to be a kind of theme of demonizing people for being too extreme after I find it very selfish on the part of the public to revere these people, glean all the rewards of the incredible photos of Jordan dunking and the dynasties and all that, and then be like, "Oh, well, he was compulsively competitive," or something like that.

如今，似乎有一种妖魔化人们过于极端的主题，因为我发现公众尊重这些人，收集乔丹扣篮和王朝等令人难以置信的照片的所有奖励，然后说，“哦，好吧，他有强迫性的竞争性”或类似的东西，这是非常自私的。

Like, what do you want?

比如，你想要什么？

Obviously, he did it for himself, hopefully more than he did it for the adoration.

显然，他这样做是为了自己，希望不仅仅是为了崇拜。

But imbalance also brings extremes.

但不平衡也会带来极端。

We're talking about training a dog, right?

我们正在谈论训练狗，对吗？

You can get these dogs that can do extreme things well beyond what their breed represents, but that dog is not going to be like other dogs.

你可以让这些狗做一些超出其品种所代表的极端事情，但那只狗不会像其他狗一样。

Its neural circuits are honed around these training things.

它的神经回路是围绕这些训练事物而磨练的。

And that's what happens when you take young kids, and you shape them around a certain behavior, academic or athletic.

这就是当你带着年幼的孩子，围绕某种行为（无论是学术行为还是运动行为）来塑造他们时会发生的情况。

So it's easier to look at those examples and say, "Oh, yeah, I don't want to deal with that, and so let's demonize them." I think we should celebrate those people if that's what they genuinely wanted, and we should pay attention to the fact that they became asymmetric in their wiring, literally.

因此，更容易看到这些例子并说：“哦，是的，我不想处理这个问题，所以让我们妖魔化它们吧。”我认为我们应该庆祝那些人，如果这是他们真正想要的，并且我们应该注意他们的线路变得不对称的事实，从字面上看。

And most of us probably don't want that or aren't willing to make those sacrifices.

我们大多数人可能不希望这样，或者不愿意做出这些牺牲。

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

And I think we can be okay with that duality in our heads.

我认为我们可以接受头脑中的这种二元性。

There may be goals for which you pursue in that single-minded way, and because they're so important to you, as long as you're aware.

可能有些目标是你一心一意追求的，因为它们对你来说非常重要，只要你意识到。

So sort of like, do I want to be a specialist or a generalist?

有点像，我想成为专家还是通才？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

And you can't be both.

而且你们不能两者兼而有之。

So balancing your time and effort between those two modes, I think, is really important.

因此，我认为平衡这两种模式之间的时间和精力非常重要。

You have to decide, okay, this goal is worth sacrificing for.

你必须决定，好吧，这个目标值得为之牺牲。

These other ones are not.

其他的则不是。

And as long as we're aware of the trade-offs, I think that's good.

只要我们意识到权衡，我认为那就很好。

My concern is I think we often aren't aware of the trade-offs.

我担心的是，我认为我们常常没有意识到其中的权衡。

We're only aware of the trade-offs in retrospect, after we've made the decision.

只有在做出决定之后，我们才会在事后回顾时才意识到其中的权衡。

So those who have sort of more balanced their goals, they say, "I should've put more effort into the one.

因此，那些目标更加平衡的人会说：“我应该在这个目标上投入更多的努力。

I didn't achieve all the things I wanted to," and so they're regretful of that.

我没有实现我想要的所有目标，”所以他们对此感到遗憾。

And you also see lots of stories of people saying, like, "I killed myself for this one goal, and did it, but I kind of wish I had this other..." And so I think the more we can do it proactively as opposed to retrospectively-

你也会看到很多故事，人们说，“我为了这个目标自杀了，并且做到了，但我有点希望我有另一个目标……”所以我认为我们越能主动地做到这一点，而不是事后回顾——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm

嗯嗯

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

...

...

the closer we will be to where we want to be.

我们就越接近我们想要去的地方。

Again, there's not much research on this, and I think that's what's really interesting to me about it.

再说一次，对此的研究并不多，我认为这才是我真正感兴趣的地方。

We can have this conversation.

我们可以进行这样的对话。

As a scientist, I'm a little frustrated that science hasn't quite caught up to these insights that we're talking about.

作为一名科学家，我对科学尚未完全跟上我们正在谈论的这些见解感到有点沮丧。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

If only.

如果只是的话。

Dangerous words.

危险的话。

I don't spend a lot of time on social media.

我不会在社交媒体上花费很多时间。

I have an allocated set of time.

我有一组分配的时间。

I have a separate phone for it, which helps.

我有一个单独的电话，这很有帮助。

Talk about moderation.

谈论适度。

That really helps.

这确实有帮助。

So when people send me things on X or Instagram, I can't see it, because texts come through a different phone, so it's an allocated time that's just a little...

因此，当人们在 X 或 Instagram 上向我发送信息时，我看不到它，因为短信是通过不同的手机发送的，所以分配的时间有点......

It's been very helpful.

这非常有帮助。

But I have this kind of appreciation for, I don't know why, they're these high-speed cup grabbers.

但我不知道为什么，我对这些高速抓杯者有一种欣赏。

Do you know these people?

你认识这些人吗？

So they set up cups or objects-

所以他们设置了杯子或物体-

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

Oh, yes

哦，是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and

和

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

Yes.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And yet everyone's like, "Oh, it was sped up," and they'll do other things like run a clock in the background so you can see that it wasn't actually artificially sped up.

然而每个人都会说，“哦，它被加速了”，他们会做其他事情，比如在后台运行一个时钟，这样你就可以看到它实际上并没有被人为加速。

And I'm like, "This is so cool." And then I realize, I'm like, "How much time did they put into this?" And I hope that they're happy in their high-speed cup grabbing.

我想，“这太酷了。”然后我意识到，我想，“他们为此投入了多少时间？”我希望他们在高速抢杯中感到高兴。

I don't know what they're sacrificing for that, but it's kind of amazing in this day and age that because we can put everything on display, there's more and more incentive to become hyper-specialized in something for mere attention.

我不知道他们为此牺牲了什么，但在当今时代，这有点令人惊奇，因为我们可以展示一切，所以越来越多的人有动力为了纯粹的关注而变得超级专业化。

And I hope they're being rewarded handsomely in whatever way, psychologically or financially.

我希望他们能够以任何方式得到丰厚的回报，无论是心理上还是经济上。

But it's kind of interesting.

但这有点有趣。

I don't think this existed in the past.

我认为这在过去是不存在的。

There might've been a traveling carnival or something where people would come through and do acrobatics.

可能有一个旅行嘉年华或其他人们会过来表演杂技的活动。

But we're in a time now where we can reach into our pocket and see the extremes of behavior, including these highly trained behaviors.

但我们现在正处于这样一个时代，我们可以把手伸进口袋，看到极端行为，包括这些训练有素的行为。

So it's a very weird time that we're living in.

所以我们现在生活在一个非常奇怪的时代。

And it sort of gives the impression that one has to be hypertrophied in one skill or one attribute, or else you're not really living, and nothing could be further from the truth.

这给人的印象是，一个人必须在一项技能或一项属性上得到强化，否则你就不是真正的生活，而事实与事实相差甚远。

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

You're making really interesting observations about the current state of our society and also about the impact it could potentially have on motivation.

您对我们社会的现状以及它可能对动机产生的潜在影响进行了非常有趣的观察。

I think the interesting angle for me in what you're just saying, you're asking whether these cup folks, cup stackers, are doing this for the attention or they're doing it for themselves.

我认为你刚才所说的对我来说是一个有趣的角度，你在问这些杯子人、杯子堆放者这样做是为了引起注意还是他们自己这样做。

And I would say the research suggests that they probably do it because they themselves love it.

我想说的是，研究表明他们这样做可能是因为他们自己喜欢它。

And it goes back to something that you said, a conversation we had earlier about doing hard things.

这可以追溯到你所说的，我们之前关于做困难事情的谈话。

Research suggests that when it comes to doing really hard things, especially sustaining that hard things over time, so you could do something hard maybe once When you're externally motivated, but sustaining that over time is really difficult if you are exclusively externally motivated.

研究表明，当涉及到做真正困难的事情时，尤其是随着时间的推移维持这些困难的事情，所以当你受到外部激励时，你可能可以做一次困难的事情，但如果你完全受到外部激励，那么随着时间的推移持续下去真的很困难。

Research suggests that your self-control, or at least your performance and self-control, is enhanced to the extent that you're intrinsically motivated, that you enjoy it for the task itself.

研究表明，你的自控力，或者至少是你的表现和自控力，会随着你的内在动机而得到增强，并且你会享受任务本身。

So there's research that Ayelet Fishbach has done, and Kaitlin Woolley as well, where they've shown that if you go to the gym and you only think about all the things that you benefit long term from the gym, that your attendance at the gym is okay, but if they include intrinsic positivity or intrinsic rewards, like just listening to your favorite music while you're on the treadmill, increases your likelihood of going regularly.

阿耶莱特·菲什巴赫 (Ayelet Fishbach) 和凯特琳·伍利 (Kaitlin Woolley) 进行了一项研究，他们的研究表明，如果你去健身房，并且只考虑从健身房长期受益的所有事情，那么你去健身房就没什么问题，但如果它们包含内在的积极性或内在的奖励，比如在跑步机上听你最喜欢的音乐，就会增加你定期去健身房的可能性。

So the idea here is that it's easier to sustain motivation over time, especially when things are hard, that's when you need to sustain it the most, when you love what you do.

所以这里的想法是，随着时间的推移，更容易维持动力，尤其是当事情困难时，那就是当你最需要维持它的时候，当你热爱你所做的事情时。

If you can't find something to love, then you might be able to do it short term, but over time, you'll struggle to keep that motivation up, mostly because the rewards are not tracking with the difficulty of the task.

如果你找不到自己喜欢的事情，那么你也许可以在短期内做到这一点，但随着时间的推移，你将很难保持这种动力，主要是因为奖励与任务的难度不相符。

That's led me to have some thoughts about how you build self-control and how you teach self-control, and I think the worst thing to do is to make someone, like the way that we currently teach self-control, I think, a lot is in the classroom where we make kids sit in the chairs really quietly and there's sort of rule imposed, this is what you're supposed to do.

这让我对如何建立自我控制以及如何教授自我控制产生了一些想法，我认为最糟糕的事情就是让某人，就像我们目前教授自我控制的方式一样，我认为，很多都是在教室里，我们让孩子们安静地坐在椅子上，并强加了某种规则，这就是你应该做的。

I'm not convinced that that's necessarily the best way to teach self-control, only because that's all externally imposed.

我不相信这一定是教授自我控制的最佳方法，只是因为这都是外部强加的。

The child does not want to sit there quietly.

孩子不想安静地坐在那里。

The child wants to do their thing.

孩子想做自己的事。

Instead, I think the best way to cultivate self-control for yourself or for others is to do it in a domain that you have intrinsic interest, because there's something where you will do the hard thing for a long time, but you'll also be more willing to explore and find better ways of doing something because you love it so much.

相反，我认为为自己或他人培养自控力的最好方法是在一个你有内在兴趣的领域去做，因为有些事情你会花很长时间做困难的事情，但你也会更愿意探索和找到更好的做某事的方法，因为你非常喜欢它。

So I used to practice martial arts, and I loved it.

所以我以前练习武术，我很喜欢它。

And I would lose a competition or I would have a horrible practice, or I just couldn't do something, and what kept me going wasn't some desire to be better or some desire...

我会输掉一场比赛，或者我会进行一次糟糕的训练，或者我就是做不到某件事，而让我继续前进的并不是一些想要变得更好的愿望或某种愿望......

It was really just the intrinsic love of the thing itself, the intrinsic love of the process that kept me in the game when things were the hardest.

这实际上只是对事物本身的内在热爱，对过程的内在热爱，让我在事情最困难的时候仍然坚持下去。

So if I were to give advice to anyone about how best to cultivate self-control and to cultivate this ability to do hard things, it would first be make sure the thing that you are trying to do that's so hard is something that you love doing.

因此，如果我要向任何人提供关于如何最好地培养自我控制力和培养做困难事情的能力的建议，首先要确保你正在尝试做的事情非常困难，是你喜欢做的事情。

Because if you don't love it, all of the external rewards are negative, they're all punishments, and that's not going to sustain you.

因为如果你不喜欢它，所有的外在奖励都是负面的，它们都是惩罚，这不会支撑你。

So unless there's something about the process itself that you enjoy the pain, and that sounds masochistic, but I think most people who do hard things, they enjoy something about the process.

因此，除非这个过程本身让你享受痛苦，这听起来很受虐，但我认为大多数做困难事情的人，他们都喜欢这个过程。

That's what keeps us going, and that's what gives us the consistent motivation to pursue things over time.

这就是我们不断前进的动力，也是我们不断追求目标的动力。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Function.

我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 Function。

Function provides over 160 advanced lab tests to give you a clear snapshot of your bodily health.

功能提供超过 160 项高级实验室测试，让您清晰了解自己的身体健康状况。

This snapshot gives you insights into your heart health, your hormone health, autoimmune function, nutrient levels, and much more.

通过此快照，您可以深入了解心脏健康状况、激素健康状况、自身免疫功能、营养水平等。

They've also recently added access to advanced MRI and CT scans.

他们最近还增加了先进的 MRI 和 CT 扫描的访问权限。

Function not only provides testing of over 160 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, it also analyzes these results and provides recommendations for improving your health from top doctors.

Function 不仅提供对您身心健康至关重要的 160 多种生物标记物的测试，还分析这些结果并提供顶级医生改善您健康的建议。

For example, in a recent test with Function, I learned that some of my blood lipids were slightly out of range.

例如，在最近的一次 Function 测试中，我发现我的一些血脂稍微超出了范围。

As a result, I decided to start supplementing with nattokinase, which can naturally help reduce LDL cholesterol, and it did.

因此，我决定开始补充纳豆激酶，它自然可以帮助降低低密度脂蛋白胆固醇，而且确实如此。

In a follow-up test, I could confirm that this strategy worked.

在后续测试中，我可以确认这个策略是有效的。

My blood lipids are now back exactly where I want them.

我的血脂现在完全回到了我想要的水平。

Comprehensive lab testing of the sort that Function offers is just so important for health.

Function 提供的全面实验室测试对于健康非常重要。

How else are you going to know what's going on under the hood?

否则你怎么知道幕后发生了什么？

And while I've been doing blood work for years, it used to be time-consuming, complicated, and expensive.

虽然我从事血液检查已有多年，但它过去非常耗时、复杂且昂贵。

In fact, I used to spend thousands of dollars per year trying to get this kind of data, and the data, frankly, were not all that good.

事实上，我曾经每年花费数千美元试图获得此类数据，但坦率地说，这些数据并不那么好。

But now with Function, it's extremely easy and affordable.

但现在有了 Function，它变得非常简单且经济实惠。

A Function membership is only a dollar a day, $365 a year, and if you think about the information it provides and the health challenges it helps you avoid, and the proactive things that it can do for you to enhance your health, I truly look at it as a savings.

Function 会员资格每天只需 1 美元，每年 365 美元，如果您考虑一下它提供的信息、它可以帮助您避免的健康挑战，以及它可以为您增强健康所做的积极主动的事情，我确实将其视为一种节省。

To learn more, visit functionhealth.com/huberman and use the code Huberman for a $50 credit towards your membership.

要了解更多信息，请访问 functionhealth.com/huberman 并使用代码 Huberman 获得 50 美元的会员积分。

Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman.

同样，这是 functionhealth.com/huberman。

You perfectly cued up this question that I've had about people who have very low activation energy, which sounds like a bad thing, but it means they can just get into action right away, versus people that it takes a lot for them to get into motion to do things.

你完美地提出了我对激活能非常低的人提出的这个问题，这听起来像是一件坏事，但这意味着他们可以立即采取行动，而不是那些需要花很多时间才能开始行动的人。

And in being a scientist and in being in labs and in running a lab, I can't say that people fall out into two bins or two distributions on this, but there do seem to be people who, for whatever reason, I used to try and correlate with upbringing or something, like did they grow up on a farm or were their parents structured at home?

作为一名科学家，在实验室和管理实验室，我不能说人们在这方面分为两个箱子或两个分布，但似乎确实有人，无论出于何种原因，我曾经尝试将其与成长或其他什么联系起来，比如他们是在农场长大还是他们的父母是在家里长大的？

But there are these people who if there are a bunch of lab tasks, they're really boring.

但有些人如果有一堆实验室任务，他们真的很无聊。

They're really boring.

他们真的很无聊。

The first time you do them, they might be interesting, but acid washing cover slips and aliquoting antibodies.

第一次做时，它们可能很有趣，但是酸洗盖玻片和等分抗体。

If you can listen to something or some music or something, you can make it a little bit more bearable, but it's boring.

如果你可以听一些东西或一些音乐或其他东西，你可以让它变得更容易忍受一点，但它很无聊。

The moment you realize a technician could do it for you and you already know how to do it, there are certain people who are like, "Can't a technician do this?" But there are other people who just go, "Okay," and they just do it, and they seem to get energy from it.

当您意识到技术人员可以为您做这件事并且您已经知道如何做时，有些人会说：“技术人员不能做这件事吗？”但也有其他人只是说：“好吧”，他们就这么做了，而且他们似乎从中获得了能量。

It's really interesting.

这真的很有趣。

And then there are other people, and I used to think, oh, these are going to be the people with better ideas or more creative, and they won't do any of this what I call chop wood, carry water stuff.

还有其他人，我曾经想，哦，这些人将是有更好想法或更有创意的人，他们不会做任何我所说的砍柴、挑水的事情。

I haven't found that to be the case at all.

我还没有发现情况完全如此。

Some people just have low activation energy.

有些人只是活化能低。

You give them a task, they might ask you why, but they just do it, and then they don't waste any effort, like no friction.

你给他们一项任务，他们可能会问你为什么，但他们只是去做，然后他们不会浪费任何努力，就像没有摩擦一样。

Other people, it's like this whole process, and I'm kind of pointing the mirror at myself now because certain things I'm very plug and chug about.

其他人，就像整个过程一样，我现在有点把镜子指向自己，因为某些事情我非常感兴趣。

Other things I'm like, "Really?

其他事情我会想，“真的吗？

Do I have to do this and that?" I will say that the interesting thing about academia That was told to me by my chairman years ago.

我必须做这做那吗？”我想说的是学术界有趣的事情，这是我的主席几年前告诉我的。

He said, "Academia is one of these funny careers because the higher you go up the ladder, the more low-level crap they give you to do in addition to everything else." I actually think it's a terrible thing on the one hand, but it might not be such a bad thing, and I'll just use one more anecdote.

他说：“学术界是这些有趣的职业之一，因为你爬得越高，除了其他事情之外，他们给你做的低级垃圾就越多。”事实上，我认为一方面这是一件可怕的事情，但也可能不是一件坏事，我只想再讲一个轶事。

I worked in the Stanford Sleep Lab for a summer when I was in college, and there was a guy who co-ran the project on looking for the gene for narcolepsy, which they eventually got.

当我上大学时，我在斯坦福睡眠实验室工作了一个夏天，有一个人共同负责寻找嗜睡症基因的项目，他们最终找到了。

His name was Seiji Nishino, and he ran the lab.

他的名字叫西野精二，负责管理这个实验室。

He's an MD and a PhD, extremely talented, and they're hunting for this gene.

他是医学博士和博士，非常有才华，他们正在寻找这种基因。

It was a big deal.

这是一件大事。

But he would come into lab and do the most rudimentary stuff with the technicians, and I remember asking him, I was like, "What's the deal?" And he said, "Oh, I just like to show people that I'll do this, and yet I also just like doing it because it makes everything else easier." And I thought, "Holy cow.

但他会走进实验室，和技术人员一起做最基本的事情，我记得我问过他，我当时想，“这是怎么回事？”他说：“哦，我只是想向人们展示我会这样做，但我也喜欢这样做，因为它让其他一切变得更容易。”我想，“天哪。

This guy's running a giant program, and he's in there doing the most rudimentary stuff, no complaint, no nothing." And I thought, "How do you get to be like that?" And it turns out, for me, you just have to scruff yourself and make yourself do it.

这个家伙正在运行一个巨大的程序，他在那里做最基本的事情，没有抱怨，什么也不做。”我想：“你怎么会变成这样呢？”事实证明，对我来说，你只需要扭动自己并强迫自己这么做。

But some people just seem to naturally make the connect.

但有些人似乎很自然地建立了联系。

What is that?

那是什么？

Is it upbringing?

是教养吗？

Is it that some people just analysis paralysis, or they think they're special?

是有些人只是分析瘫痪，还是他们认为自己很特别？

I haven't found the thing.

我还没找到那东西

I can't find it.

我找不到它。

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

I don't either.

我也不。

I don't know that I have a good answer for you.

我不知道我能为你提供一个好的答案。

I can give you a scientific perspective, but I can also give you a philosophical perspective that comes from my own Japanese background.

我可以给你一个科学的观点，但我也可以给你一个来自我自己的日本背景的哲学观点。

So I'll start with the philosophical one.

所以我将从哲学的角度开始。

In Japanese culture, I've been really interested about this concept of ikigai, which means you're doing a mundane task, but you are finding purpose in it.

在日本文化中，我对 ikigai 的概念非常感兴趣，这意味着你正在做一项平凡的任务，但你正在其中找到目的。

So your job might be to sweep the steps of a temple, and you could ask, "Wow, that's as about as mundane and as trivial a task as I could actually find." But the idea of ikigai is to think about if that is your purpose, if that's your piece of the pie, you're part of this giant system, and this is the important cog that you fill, it actually enhances well-being.

所以你的工作可能是打扫寺庙的台阶，你可能会问，“哇，这真是我能找到的最平凡、最微不足道的任务了。”但ikigai的想法是思考这是否是你的目的，如果这是你的一部分，你是这个巨大系统的一部分，这是你填补的重要齿轮，它实际上可以增强幸福感。

They'll do it until they're 90 years old, they'll still be doing it, and they won't give it up because they find so much meaning in the simple task.

他们会一直这样做，直到90岁，他们仍然会这样做，而且他们不会放弃，因为他们在简单的任务中发现了如此多的意义。

This infusion of simple tasks, I think, is also related to the notion of rituals, right?

我认为这种简单任务的注入也与仪式的概念有关，对吧？

So a lot of traditions have rituals that people engage in, and they engage in a perfunctory manner.

所以很多传统都有人们参与的仪式，而且他们是以敷衍的方式参与的。

But if you engage it in a meaningful way, it has this power to connect us to everyone else who has ever done the ritual and anyone who might in the future.

但如果你以一种有意义的方式参与它，它就有能力将我们与所有曾经做过这个仪式的人以及未来可能做过这个仪式的人联系起来。

So it sort of expands us to include more people in us.

所以它在某种程度上扩大了我们的范围，让更多的人加入我们。

And I'm really interested in this idea that we can draw sacredness from these mundane tasks.

我对这个想法非常感兴趣，我们可以从这些平凡的任务中汲取神圣性。

Again, this is all speculation.

再说一遍，这都是猜测。

My colleague, Shira Gabriel, she's at SUNY Buffalo.

我的同事 Shira Gabriel，她在纽约州立大学布法罗分校。

She studies what's known as collective effervescence, this idea of these magical experiences that we have when we're in a crowd, all kind of doing the same thing.

她研究所谓的集体兴奋，即我们在人群中做同样的事情时所获得的神奇体验。

So if we all go to a football game and we're all cheering at the same time, or we go to a concert and we're all singing Taylor Swift together, whoever your singer of choice might be, that there's sort of like a magic-ness where we're doing something that's fairly mundane, but it feels sacred and special to us.

因此，如果我们一起去看一场足球比赛，我们都在同一时间欢呼，或者我们去一场音乐会，我们一起唱泰勒·斯威夫特，无论你选择的歌手是谁，都会有一种神奇的感觉，我们正在做一些相当平凡的事情，但对我们来说，这感觉是神圣和特别的。

It's sort of infusing it with meaning.

这有点给它注入了意义。

Just going back to your point, I wonder, for some people, doing the simple tasks might just be a way of connecting to the essence of the science itself or the essence of the task itself.

回到你的观点，我想知道，对于某些人来说，做简单的任务可能只是连接到科学本身的本质或任务本身的本质的一种方式。

So when I was doing martial arts, you're supposed to tie your armor on in a certain way, and you're supposed to bow in in a certain way.

所以我练武术的时候，你的铠甲要按一定的方式系，你要按一定的方式鞠躬。

And in some senses, it's like, well, this is a stupid set of traditions, and again, you could just go through them in a perfunctory manner, but if you did them with meaning, it's not just the task itself, but it's the connection that we have to people that came before us and the people that came after us.

从某种意义上说，这就像，嗯，这是一套愚蠢的传统，再说一次，你可以以一种敷衍的方式去经历它们，但如果你有意义地去做它们，这不仅仅是任务本身，而是我们与我们之前的人和我们之后的人之间的联系。

Again, as mentioned, social belonging is one of the most powerful human motivations.

正如前面提到的，社会归属感是人类最强大的动机之一。

If we can create these bonds through these simplistic rituals, again, these are all speculations that I'm drawing, but it could potentially be really, really powerful.

如果我们能够通过这些简单的仪式建立这些联系，那么，这些都是我正在绘制的猜测，但它可能非常非常强大。

And this idea that there might be sacredness in the mundane is an idea that I think really interesting to me.

我认为平凡中可能存在神圣性的想法对我来说非常有趣。

So perhaps, this PI that you're talking about felt more connected to the lab by doing these mundane tasks that I personally would not want to do.

所以也许，你所说的这个 PI 通过做这些我个人不想做的平凡任务，感觉与实验室的联系更加紧密。

But perhaps it was a way of sort of saying, "I'm still part of this science when I'm pushing paperwork at the higher levels of administration." Again, it's all purely speculation, but I think there is some basis in science.

但这也许是一种说法，“当我在更高级别的行政部门推动文书工作时，我仍然是这门科学的一部分。”再说一遍，这纯粹是猜测，但我认为有一定的科学依据。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, I remember thinking back then, like, "What a badass." Also, he and his coworker, Emmanuel Mignot, eventually found the gene.

是的，我记得当时想，“真是个坏蛋。”此外，他和他的同事伊曼纽尔·米尼奥最终发现了这个基因。

It's in the orexin/hypocretin system, which has all these implications for hunger regulation, has implications for the treatment of obesity.

它位于食欲素/下丘脑分泌素系统中，对饥饿调节具有所有这些影响，对肥胖症的治疗也有影响。

They were making fundamental discoveries, and there he was, and to this day, I still revere him in my mind.

他们正在做出重大发现，而他就在那里，直到今天，我仍然在心里尊敬他。

He's also, by the way, I'll just throw this out there, incidentally, the guy who taught me that getting morning and evening sunlight in my eyes would set my circadian rhythm because the guy used to work heroic hours.

顺便说一句，我顺便提一下，他也是那个教我让早晚的阳光照射到眼睛里会设定我的昼夜节律的人，因为他过去常常工作得很辛苦。

He would sleep four or five hours a night, and he was like, "You just have to stay on a circadian schedule." Turns out you need a little more sleep than that.

他每晚睡四五个小时，他说，“你只需要遵守昼夜节律。”事实证明你需要多一点睡眠。

But he's still going strong, so incredible.

但他依然坚强，令人难以置信。

As we've been talking today, I've had this thing in the back of my mind, which is like, and this is an obsession of mine, admittedly, there's something about our ability as humans to dynamically regulate our perception in time that is extremely valuable, right?

正如我们今天所谈论的，我的脑海里一直有这件事，这就像，这是我的痴迷，不可否认，我们作为人类及时动态调节我们的感知的能力是非常有价值的，对吧？

And it's especially salient when we think, "Okay, there's the cake.

当我们想“好吧，蛋糕来了。”时，这一点尤其明显。

I want that.

我想要那个。

Okay, I'm not going to do that." You can do things in space, and not outer space, but in physical space, as these kids did with the marshmallow.

好吧，我不会那么做。”你可以在太空中做事，而不是外太空，而是在物理空间中，就像这些孩子对棉花糖所做的那样。

You can turn around, you can put something in front of it, you could imagine a cockroach on it.

你可以转身，你可以在它前面放一些东西，你可以想象有一只蟑螂在上面。

But The powerful tools seem to be when we incorporate some exit from the moment into a future moment.

但强大的工具似乎是当我们将一些从当下的退出融入到未来的时刻时。

Or we could think back.

或者我们可以回想一下。

David Goggins will tell you, and I have a friend who's come on the podcast before, and Samer Hattar is a scientist, and he talked about how he was very overweight and he's doing great now with his health.

大卫·戈金斯（David Goggins）会告诉你，我有一个朋友以前参加过播客，萨默·哈塔尔（Samer Hattar）是一位科学家，他谈到了他如何非常超重，但现在他的健康状况很好。

But David will tell you, too, the fear of being that again is also a motivator.

但大卫也会告诉你，对再次成为那样的恐惧也是一种动力。

So thoughts to the past, linking the present to that, and to a future concept.

因此，思考过去，将现在与过去联系起来，并与未来的概念联系起来。

What we're talking about is mental time travel.

我们谈论的是精神时间旅行。

And this is a pretty high-level thing that I'm assuming my dog, when I put a piece of meat in front of him on the floor, can't do unless I give him a command and I take it away if he doesn't obey the command, which is how he learned it so fast.

这是一件相当高级的事情，当我把一块肉放在我的狗面前的地板上时，我假设我的狗无法做到，除非我给他一个命令，如果他不遵守命令，我就把它拿走，这就是他学得这么快的原因。

So when we're talking about dynamic time perception, we know that that's harder when we're under conditions of stress.

因此，当我们谈论动态时间感知时，我们知道当我们处于压力条件下时，这会变得更加困难。

When we're more relaxed, it's easier to do.

当我们更加放松时，事情就会变得更容易。

So does any of the work that you've looked at in self-control actively incorporate the notion of self-regulation, how calm or how anxious one is?

那么，您所研究的有关自我控制的著作是否积极地融入了自我调节的概念，即一个人的冷静程度或焦虑程度？

Because we hear this like, oh, some people don't eat when they get anxious, but a lot of people just become anxious eaters, or for people in 12-step for alcohol, it's like never be, what is it, angry, tired, et cetera, for these very reasons.

因为我们听到这样的说法，哦​​，有些人焦虑时不吃东西，但很多人只是变得焦虑食客，或者对于酒精12步的人来说，就像永远不会，这是什么，生气，疲倦等等，正是出于这些原因。

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

I think what you're saying is fundamental to understanding self-control.

我认为你所说的是理解自我控制的基础。

Self-control fails when we are not able to move in distance.

当我们无法远距离移动时，自我控制就会失败。

So I talked about how self-control is distance dependent.

所以我谈到了自我控制是如何依赖于距离的。

When it's far away, it's easy.

当距离很远时，这很容易。

When it's close, it's really difficult.

当它接近时，真的很难。

And so many of the most effective strategies in self-control require either physically distancing yourself, as you've already talked about, or psychologically distancing myself.

许多最有效的自我控制策略要么需要在身体上保持距离（正如您已经谈到的），要么在心理上保持距离。

Finding ways to either to activate the mindsets that I have when the thing is distant, so I'm thinking about it as if it was distant, even though it's proximal, or finding other ways to frame it as if it's distant.

找到方法来激活我在事物遥远时的思维方式，所以我把它想象成是遥远的，即使它是近的，或者找到其他方法来将它视为遥远的。

So, as I said, in my lab, we talk about, because again, when things are far away, we tend to think about things in terms of why, but when they're close, we tend to think about them in terms of how.

因此，正如我所说，在我的实验室中，我们会谈论，因为当事情很远时，我们倾向于从原因角度来思考事情，但当它们很近时，我们倾向于从如何角度来思考它们。

And so in my lab, we sort of stress knowing your whys as one way to extricate yourself psychologically from the situation that you're currently in.

因此，在我的实验室中，我们强调了解你的原因，作为从心理上摆脱当前处境的一种方法。

Now, you mentioned things like being drunk or being angry or being tired as things that predispose us to self-control failure.

现在，你提到像喝醉、生气或疲倦这样的事情会让我们容易自我控制失败。

I don't know if it's necessarily that it's difficult, or if it's just they bias us in one direction or the other.

我不知道这是否一定是困难的，或者只是他们在一个方向或另一个方向上对我们产生偏见。

And strong emotional states, we know with alcohol, it creates myopia.

我们知道，酒精带来的强烈情绪状态会导致近视。

We know that when we're tired, we tend to think, again, more myopically, more here and now, because we just want to rest.

我们知道，当我们疲倦时，我们往往会更加短视地思考，更多地考虑此时此地，因为我们只想休息。

We don't want to think about the long term.

我们不想考虑长远。

That our mind sort of, there's an attractor state towards being very concrete and thinking about how, and which, again, brings us actually proximal to the temptation.

我们的思想有一种吸引子状态，非常具体，并思考如何以及这再次使我们真正接近诱惑。

So I'm not sure that it's necessarily harder to do in the sense that it's that much more effort when all else is being equal.

所以我不确定这是否一定更难做到，因为在其他条件相同的情况下，需要付出更多的努力。

It's just that the situation has put us in a situation where it's a lot easier to think proximally than think distally.

只是这种情况使我们陷入了这样一种境地：近端思考比远端思考容易得多。

So what are some other ways in which you can get more distance from a temptation that's not necessarily thinking about why versus how?

那么，还有哪些其他方法可以让您远离诱惑，而不必考虑为什么与如何呢？

Other ways might include, and these come from my colleague Ethan Kross, who I know has been a guest on your show, referring to yourself in the third person as opposed to me.

其他方式可能包括，这些来自我的同事伊森·克罗斯（Ethan Kross），我知道他是你们节目的嘉宾，用第三人称指代你自己，而不是我。

So I might say, "What does Ken want to do in this situation?" versus, "What do I want to do?" And just simply referring to myself as other people, not me, but as other people would create psychological distance in the space that gives me just enough to think of it as far as opposed to close.

所以我可能会说，“在这种情况下肯想做什么？”与“我想做什么？”只是简单地将自己称为其他人，而不是我，而是其他人，就会在空间中创造心理距离，让我足以将其视为远方而不是近距离。

I mentioned also a study that, what would Jesus do, for example?

我还提到了一项研究，例如耶稣会做什么？

He did this with kids, Angela Duckworth and Rachel Carlson at the University of Minnesota.

他与明尼苏达大学的孩子们，安吉拉·达克沃斯（Angela Duckworth）和雷切尔·卡尔森（Rachel Carlson）一起这样做了。

They brought kids in, and in one condition, they just had them do a task that required self-control as they normally would.

他们把孩子们带进来，在一种情况下，他们只是让他们像平常一样完成一项需要自我控制的任务。

But in the experimental condition, for the boys, they gave the children various costumes.

但在实验条件下，对于男孩来说，他们给了孩子们各种服装。

They could pick the costume that they wanted to wear the most.

他们可以挑选自己最想穿的服装。

And so a little boy might put on a Batman cape and cowl.

因此，一个小男孩可能会穿上蝙蝠侠斗篷和兜帽。

And then they were simply asked, "As you do this task, we want you to ask the question, 'What would that character do?'" So a boy might say, "What would Batman do?" And they show that thinking like Batman made them have better self-control.

然后他们被简单地问到，“当你做这个任务时，我们希望你问一个问题，‘那个角色会做什么？’”所以一个男孩可能会说，“蝙蝠侠会做什么？”他们表明，像蝙蝠侠一样思考可以让他们有更好的自我控制能力。

Now, there's many reasons for this, but the reason that they emphasized was that Batman isn't a kid.

现在，造成这种情况的原因有很多，但他们强调的原因是蝙蝠侠不是孩子。

And so they created distance by emulating somebody else.

因此，他们通过模仿别人来创造距离。

Research has suggested that the simulation of someone else's mind, in order to simulate someone else's mind, we actually activate the neural circuitry necessary to have that mind.

研究表明，模拟别人的思维，为了模拟别人的思维，我们实际上激活了拥有该思维所需的神经回路。

So if I ask myself, "What would Batman do?" I literally have to think like Batman.

所以如果我问自己，“蝙蝠侠会做什么？”我真的必须像蝙蝠侠一样思考。

I reactivate the kinds of thinking that I think Batman would have.

我重新激活了我认为蝙蝠侠会有的那种想法。

In other words, literally turning my cognitive system into somebody else.

换句话说，就是把我的认知系统变成另一个人的认知系统。

So, when you are tired and drunk and mad and everything else, one way, if you can't think about your whys and you're having trouble finding distance from the object in front of you, it's not about not being emotional, it's really just finding some psychological space.

所以，当你累了、喝醉了、生气了以及其他一切时，一方面，如果你无法思考自己的原因，并且很难与面前的物体保持距离，那么这并不是不情绪化，而是只是在寻找一些心理空间。

And one way to do that, potentially, is to take on someone else's perspective, someone that you really admire.

实现这一目标的一种方法可能是采取别人的观点，即你真正钦佩的人的观点。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Incredible.

难以置信。

I don't know if the following experiment exists, but maybe pieces of it exist in different experiments.

我不知道以下实验是否存在，但也许它的一部分存在于不同的实验中。

I'm interested in the value of words spoken to self in one's mind, words spoken to self out loud but with no one around, writing things down, words spoken to other people, pictures, et cetera, as Either weaker or stronger motivators for the obvious reasons.

我感兴趣的是在心里对自己说的话、在周围没有人的情况下大声对自己说的话、写下来、对别人说的话、图片等等，作为出于明显原因的较弱或较强的激励因素。

And I think all of us are familiar, at least in the 2000s, you would go into an office or a school, and there'd be these pictures.

我想我们大家都很熟悉，至少在 2000 年代，你走进办公室或学校，就会看到这些照片。

It would be like inspiration, when the moment meets the opportunity, and then it'd be like a sunrise or something.

这就像灵感，当那一刻遇到机会时，然后就像日出之类的。

And I'm not trying to make light of those.

我并不是想轻视这些。

Better those than a bunch of other things, and they're very innocuous, too.

这些比其他一些东西更好，而且它们也非常无害。

In this day and age where no single historical figure seems to be immune from criticism, these have become the safe concepts.

在当今时代，似乎没有一个历史人物能够免受批评，这些已经成为安全的概念。

And I'm sort of half chuckling, but what is the value of telling oneself, "Andrew, you got this," or telling someone else, "I'm going to do this." I don't know, maybe using AI to create a picture of yourself in the future doing something or having done something.

我有点笑了，但是告诉自己，“安德鲁，你明白了”，或者告诉别人，“我要做这个”，有什么价值呢？我不知道，也许用人工智能来创建一张你自己未来正在做某事或已经做过某事的照片。

Surely these experiments have been done.

当然这些实验已经完成了。

I know some of them your laboratory has done.

我知道你们实验室已经完成了其中一些。

What is the most potent tool?

最有效的工具是什么？

And I have a feeling you're going to say all of them.

我有预感你会说出所有这些。

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

I think they can all have their place, but as I mentioned before, I think different things will have better power over others for certain people.

我认为他们都可以有自己的位置，但正如我之前提到的，我认为对于某些人来说，不同的事物比其他事物具有更好的力量。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Mm-hmm.

嗯嗯。

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

So for example, if you tend to be the kind of person who already has a lot of self-talk going on, and the self-talk means something to you, like they're meaningful voices to you that you listen to, then self-talk presumably would be very effective for you, right?

举例来说，如果你是那种已经有很多自言自语的人，而自言自语对你来说意味着一些东西，就像你听到的对你来说是有意义的声音，那么自言自语对你来说可能会非常有效，对吗？

So if you're the kind of person where if it's positive self-talk, you literally feel better, if it's negative self-talk, you feel worse, then perhaps strategically trying to change that self-talk could potentially have a really powerful effect on you.

因此，如果你是这样一种人，如果是积极的自言自语，你实际上会感觉更好，如果是消极的自言自语，你会感觉更糟，那么也许有策略地尝试改变这种自言自语可能会对你产生真正强大的影响。

Some people talk about visualization.

有些人谈论可视化。

And one thing I forgot to mention with respect to distancing strategy, one distancing strategy is to take a third-person perspective versus a first-person perspective on the thing that you're looking at.

关于疏远策略，我忘记提及一件事，一种疏远策略是对您正在查看的事物采取第三人称视角而不是第一人称视角。

This doesn't work for me at all because I'm not a particularly visual thinker.

这对我来说根本不起作用，因为我不是一个特别视觉化的思考者。

I think in words.

我用言语来思考。

So for me, words are more effective than pictures.

所以对我来说，文字比图片更有效。

But if you're a much more pictorial person, and we know that this is a distribution, that some people are more pictorial and some people are more verbal, then perhaps visualizing yourself engaging in the behavior would be more effective.

但如果你是一个更加形象化的人，而且我们知道这是一种分布，有些人更加形象化，有些人更加言语化，那么也许想象自己参与这种行为会更有效。

Let me add one more thing.

让我再补充一件事。

There is research that suggests that when you communicate something to somebody, and then they respond in a way that makes it seem like you are on the same wavelength, that that creates an experience known as shared reality.

有研究表明，当你与某人交流某事时，他们的反应方式会让你们看起来志同道合，这就创造了一种称为共享现实的体验。

People put a special premium and truth value to those interchanges than when you don't have that.

与没有这些交换时相比，人们对这些交换给予特别的溢价和真实价值。

So let me just give you an example.

让我举个例子。

On a lot of college campuses today, you will see banners that say, "You belong," and they're trying to promote inclusion and make everyone feel at home on the college campus.

如今，在许多大学校园里，您都会看到写着“你属于”的横幅，他们正在努力促进包容性，让大学校园里的每个人都有宾至如归的感觉。

And my own intuition about this is I'm not so sure how effective those are.

我自己对此的直觉是我不太确定这些措施有多有效。

I think they're a lot like the motivational posters that you're talking about that used to be in the offices.

我认为它们很像你所说的办公室里曾经贴的励志海报。

However, if someone says, "Hey, you know what?

然而，如果有人说：“嘿，你知道吗？

I think you really belong.

我认为你真的属于。

I'm really happy that you're here." It's a very similar message.

我真的很高兴你在这里。”这是一条非常相似的消息。

It might even use the same words.

它甚至可能使用相同的词。

If it's conveyed in a way that makes you feel like they understand you and that you guys are on the same wavelength, that actually has a very powerful effect, and there's some ongoing research in my lab that even though it's the same words, there's something about that exchange of we see the world in the same way that convinces me that what you're saying is true, and so therefore, it has a much bigger impact on me.

如果它的传达方式让你感觉他们理解你并且你们在同一波长上，这实际上会产生非常强大的效果，而且我的实验室正在进行一些研究，即使是相同的词，我们以相同的方式看待世界的交流让我相信你说的是真的，因此，它对我有更大的影响。

So I bring this all back to self-control by saying, so you talked about is self-talk more effective than other talking.

所以我把这一切带回自我控制，所以你所说的自我对话比其他谈话更有效。

I suspect other talking would be much more effective if you were able to create this kind of reality, right?

我怀疑如果你能够创造这种现实，其他谈话会更有效，对吧？

Where if you had this conversation and you said, "I'm going to do this," and then other person says, "I know you're going to do this," right?

如果你进行这样的谈话，你说，“我要这样做，”然后其他人说，“我知道你会这样做，”对吗？

I bet that has a lot more power than you saying to somebody else, "I'm going to do this," and they're like, "Uh-huh.

我敢打赌，这比你对别人说“我要做这件事”更有力量，而他们会说，“嗯。

Uh-huh.

嗯嗯。

Good luck." Right?

祝你好运。”正确的？

Because humans are social species, there is a special power when we can create a sense of oneness with others that makes our thoughts become real.

因为人类是社会物种，所以当我们能够与他人建立一种一体感时，就会有一种特殊的力量，使我们的想法变得真实。

So if by saying it, if by writing it, my thoughts are becoming real and have more power over, those are much more likely to have an effect.

因此，如果通过说出来，如果通过写下来，我的想法变得真实并且具有更大的力量，那么这些就更有可能产生效果。

Again, this is all pure speculation, but I think it fits what we know about psychology.

再说一次，这纯粹是猜测，但我认为这符合我们对心理学的了解。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

It's incredible.

太不可思议了。

I'm remembering a recent conversation where I was kind of playing with the idea with someone like it's the old riddle, if a tree falls in the woods and no one's there to witness it, did it make a sound?

我记得最近的一次谈话中，我和某人玩起了这个想法，就像这是一个古老的谜语，如果一棵树倒在树林里而没有人在场见证，它会发出声音吗？

It's sort of like if we have a thought or an experience, and no one was there to hear it or witness it, did it really happen?

这有点像如果我们有一个想法或一种经历，但没有人听到或见证它，它真的发生了吗？

And we know it happened, right?

我们知道这件事发生了，对吧？

We can be alone and we can have a thought, but there does seem to be a sort of loop that closes and gets enhanced, and I'm not trying to be mystical here, when something that we say or do is witnessed and registered.

我们可以独处，我们可以思考，但似乎确实存在一种闭合并得到增强的循环，当我们所说或所做的事情被见证和记录时，我并不是想变得神秘。

This can go in multiple directions.

这可以朝多个方向发展。

I'm reminded of just a very brief story.

我想起了一个非常简短的故事。

I have a good friend.

我有一个好朋友。

His name is Ken Ridout.

他的名字叫肯·里杜特。

He's one of these incredible parents and is a husband to his wife, and he comes from a really hardscrabble background.

他是这些令人难以置信的父母之一，也是他妻子的丈夫，他来自一个非常贫困的家庭。

And he's this incredible endurance runner.

他是一位令人难以置信的耐力跑运动员。

And in his 50s, he's crushing races, and he was doing a race in I think it was like the Gobi Desert, I think is what it was.

在他 50 多岁的时候，他在比赛中表现出色，我认为他在戈壁沙漠中进行比赛，我认为就是这样。

And he's super competitive with himself and everyone else.

他对自己和其他人都非常有竞争力。

But he was hurting one day, and I think he ran up next to the guy who was leading the race, took out his earbud and turned to him, and he said in kind of psychological warfare manner, he said, "I don't know what it is about me.

但有一天他受伤了，我想他跑到了领先比赛的人旁边，拿出耳机转向他，他以一种心理战的方式说道，“我不知道这与我有关。

I just don't get tired." And he said he registered the fear on the other guy's face, and he just crushed him that day.

我就是不累。”他说他在另一个人脸上看到了恐惧，那天他把他压垮了。

And he won, of course, in Ken Ridout typical fashion.

当然，他以肯·里杜特（Ken Ridout）典型的方式获胜。

He's an amazing guy.

他是一个了不起的人。

He has a book out that's really super worth reading because of his trajectory, like David Goggins or these other guys.

他出版了一本非常值得一读的书，因为他的轨迹就像大卫·戈金斯或其他人一样。

And the fact that he wrote a book is interesting, right?

他写了一本书这一事实很有趣，对吧？

There's something about externalizing these thoughts.

将这些想法具体化是有一定道理的。

I am sure somewhere in his mind, he didn't necessarily believe what he was saying.

我确信在他心里的某个地方，他不一定相信自己所说的话。

Everybody gets tired, right?

每个人都会累，对吧？

Even Ken Ridout gets tired.

就连肯·里杜特 (Ken Ridout) 也会感到疲倦。

But there's something about externalizing it, seeing that validated, that makes it more true to ourselves

但将其具体化，看到它得到验证，这会让它对我们自己更加真实

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

Yes

是的

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And that's a kind of a competitive example, but there are also beautiful examples of that, like you said, where someone's like, "I believe in you.

这是一种竞争性的例子，但也有一些美丽的例子，就像你说的，有人会说，“我相信你。

You can do this." And it completely changes our notion of what's possible.

你可以做到这一点。”它彻底改变了我们对可能性的看法。

I certainly experience that in a non-competitive arena.

我当然在非竞争性的舞台上经历过这一点。

So something there.

所以那里有一些东西。

I guess that's a note to the person or people hearing somebody's goal or wish to tune in, because those are potent moments or potentially potent moments.

我想这是给听到某人目标或希望收听的人的一个注释，因为这些都是强有力的时刻或潜在的有力时刻。

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

I'm always struck that the impact that we have on our students, especially our graduate students and stuff, they're not the things I think they're going to be.

我总是感到惊讶的是，我们对学生，尤其是研究生等人的影响，并不是我想象的那样。

They always remember these side conversations where you acknowledge some small thing that was going on in their life.

他们总是记得这些私下谈话，你承认他们生活中发生的一些小事情。

But again, for them, it was that sort of moment of bringing to reality some of the thoughts that they were having and hearing me say them or hearing me verify some of these thoughts had an incredibly uplifting effect.

但同样，对他们来说，这是一种将他们的一些想法变为现实的时刻，听到我说出这些想法或听到我证实其中一些想法产生了令人难以置信的振奋人心的效果。

As you say, it can also have an incredibly crushing effect.

正如你所说，它也可以产生令人难以置信的毁灭性效果。

So if I'm having insecurities and I'm sort of harping on those, acknowledging that those insecurities might have a truth to them, they could be incredibly damaging.

因此，如果我有不安全感，并且我对这些不安全感喋喋不休，承认这些不安全感可能是真实的，那么它们可能会造成难以置信的破坏。

But I'm always amazed by how inspiring it can be.

但我总是对它的鼓舞人心感到惊讶。

Someone that you really respect, they know you have this goal, and then they say, "I know you have this goal, and I think you can do it." That's what I'm talking about, the shared reality, the social validation of this belief makes it more real and thus has more power.

你真正尊敬的人，他们知道你有这个目标，然后他们说，“我知道你有这个目标，我认为你可以做到。”这就是我所说的，共同的现实，这种信念的社会验证使其更加真实，因此具有更大的力量。

We know that writing thoughts down can be a very powerful thing as well for emotion regulation and motivation.

我们知道，把想法写下来对于情绪调节和激励来说也是一件非常有效的事情。

I think part of that is just the actual sharing part, is the fact that now that I've written it down, I'm now looking at it as if it was not me.

我认为其中一部分只是实际的分享部分，事实上，现在我已经把它写下来了，我现在看着它，就好像它不是我一样。

Right?

正确的？

So now it's not me, it's words on the page, and that brings another level of power that I didn't have when they're just floating.

所以现在不是我，而是页面上的文字，这带来了另一种力量，这是我在它们漂浮时所没有的。

So again, I think all of these strategies that you were talking about, self-talk, writing, talking to other people, I think they can all be powerful in the right way for the right person.

再说一次，我认为你所谈论的所有这些策略，自言自语，写作，与其他人交谈，我认为它们都可以以正确的方式为正确的人发挥作用。

But they may also exist on a continuum of potential potency, both good and bad.

但它们也可能存在于潜在效力的连续体中，无论好坏。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What I'm about to ask sort of gets into the realm of performance, but I could imagine it being used for any number of things.

我要问的问题有点涉及性能领域，但我可以想象它可以用于许多事情。

Music, in particular the music that we listen to at a particular stage of life, is able to embody a lot without us having to script out complete sentences.

音乐，特别是我们在人生特定阶段听到的音乐，能够体现很多东西，而无需我们编写完整的句子。

It's sort of a time-space travel of its own, right?

这本身就是一次时空旅行，对吧？

There's certain songs, I'm sure for you, too.

有些歌曲我相信也适合你。

I hear them and I teleport back.

我听到他们的声音，然后传送回来。

Is it possible to build these anchors?

可以建造这些锚点吗？

Like have a song or something that you associate with a time of working through struggle, that the process is captured in that and then you can reapply it?

就像有一首歌或一些东西让你与奋斗的时刻联系起来，这个过程被捕捉到，然后你可以重新应用它？

Do those tools really work?

这些工具真的有用吗？

Because there was this phase from about 1998 to about 2015 when TED Talks and books were chock-a-block full of this stuff.

因为大约从 1998 年到 2015 年有一个阶段，TED 演讲和书籍中充斥着这些东西。

It's not clear to me that they work or that they don't work, but music's a powerful anchor.

我不清楚它们是否有效，但音乐是一个强大的锚。

So has anything been explored around this?

那么围绕这个问题有什么探索吗？

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

Not that I'm aware of.

据我所知。

The best work that I can link to this is work that I know that's done on nostalgia.

我能与之联系起来的最好的作品是我所知道的基于怀旧的作品。

And nostalgia traditionally is portrayed in most media as something really negative.

传统上，大多数媒体都将怀旧描述为非常消极的东西。

It's like a negative bittersweet state.

这就像一种消极的苦乐参半的状态。

But research in psychology suggests that nostalgia actually has a very functional process.

但心理学研究表明，怀旧实际上有一个非常有效的过程。

It serves a lot of different motivations.

它有很多不同的动机。

So for example, one of the things that it does is it helps make me feel connected.

举个例子，它的作用之一就是让我感到有联系。

So a lot of times, I might feel like I don't really know myself, I don't know who I am.

所以很多时候，我可能会觉得自己不太了解自己，不知道自己是谁。

And nostalgia is a way of, as you used the word anchor, it allows you to time travel and anchor, and then more importantly, see a sense of self-continuity.

怀旧是一种方式，正如你使用“锚”这个词一样，它可以让你进行时间旅行和锚定，然后更重要的是，看到一种自我连续性的感觉。

That I can see how I was there then, and I can see how I am now, and I feel a sense of connection, a sense of oneness, and that that can have a lot of positive benefits to the extent that that's what you're looking for.

我可以看到我当时的样子，我可以看到我现在的样子，我感受到一种联系感，一种一体感，这可以带来很多积极的好处，只要这就是你所寻求的。

So to the extent that music makes you nostalgic, and I think a lot of the music that we love most has an element of nostalgia to it, I do think it serves a very important distance traveling function, time traveling function.

因此，就音乐让你怀旧而言，我认为我们最喜​​欢的很多音乐都有怀旧的元素，我确实认为它具有非常重要的距离旅行功能，时间旅行功能。

And you used the word anchor, which I really like, too.

你用了“锚”这个词，我也很喜欢这个词。

It reminds us who we are, where we've been, and who we've become.

它提醒我们我们是谁、我们去过哪里以及我们已经成为谁。

And we know for humans, that narrative, that sense of continuity is also very important for existential reasons.

我们知道，对于人类来说，这种叙事、这种连续性对于存在的原因也非常重要。

That I belong here for a reason, that there's a purpose.

我属于这里是有原因的，有目的的。

And so motivationally, those can be very effective.

因此，在激励方面，这些可能非常有效。

Now, I don't know if it reinstates the motivations that you had during the time, but I think it at least allows you to connect to the time where you had those motivations.

现在，我不知道它是否会恢复你当时的动机，但我认为它至少可以让你联系到你有这些动机的时间。

They may have changed, they may be stronger, they may be weaker, but that sense of connection, I think, is really important for understanding what your motivations are in the first place, right?

他们可能已经改变，他们可能更强，他们可能更弱，但我认为这种联系感对于理解你的动机非常重要，对吧？

How they've evolved over time and what they are now like.

随着时间的推移，它们是如何演变的以及现在的样子。

To the extent they're the same, it might be able to reactivate, but to the extent that they're different, it actually might cause deactivation.

如果它们相同，它可能会重新激活，但如果它们不同，它实际上可能会导致停用。

But not in a bad way, but in sort of a good way in reminding you, okay, now what motivates you?

但不是以一种坏的方式，而是以一种好的方式提醒你，好吧，现在是什么激励着你？

Now what's changed?

现在发生了什么变化？

What do you care about now?

你现在关心什么？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd like to just briefly return to the concepts of intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation.

我想简单地回到内在动机与外在动机的概念上。

As I recall, there was this famous set of experiments also done at Stanford where they had kids draw, excuse me, where kids drew, intrinsically liked drawing.

我记得斯坦福大学也做过一组著名的实验，他们让孩子们画画，对不起，孩子们画画，本质上喜欢画画。

They just observed which kids drew, then they started rewarding those kids for drawing, and then they observed, at least as I recall, the outcomes being they observed that some of these kids drew less or gave up drawing because the conclusion was that these kids now were doing it for the rewards as opposed to the activity itself.

他们只是观察哪些孩子画画，然后开始奖励那些画画的孩子，然后他们观察到，至少我记得，结果是他们观察到其中一些孩子画得更少或放弃画画，因为结论是这些孩子现在这样做是为了奖励，而不是活动本身。

Did those results hold up over time?

随着时间的推移，这些结果是否有效？

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

Generally speaking, the results have held up over time, although there are some situations in which they appear at odds with current practices and intuitions that we might have.

一般来说，结果随着时间的推移而保持不变，尽管在某些情况下它们似乎与我们当前的实践和直觉不一致。

And the best example I can think of is being paid for your job.

我能想到的最好的例子就是为你的工作支付报酬。

Right?

正确的？

So being paid for your job is an extrinsic reward for something that you may or may not be intrinsically interested in.

因此，工作报酬是对你可能感兴趣或不感兴趣的事物的外在奖励。

And so the big question is, if you love your job And then I pay you to do the job that you love, does the love that you have for that job go down?

所以最大的问题是，如果你热爱你的工作，然后我付钱给你做你热爱的工作，你对这份工作的热爱会下降吗？

Now, I don't think this is that perplexing if you understand what was actually going on in those Stanford studies.

现在，如果你了解斯坦福大学研究中实际发生的情况，我认为这并不那么令人困惑。

So they were children.

所以他们还是孩子。

So again, the children intrinsically enjoyed playing with markers, and then all of a sudden in one condition, they would say, "Okay, now I want you to play with these markers, and if you play with these markers, I will give you a reward." A second condition, they said, "Surprise, you just play with the markers, but we're going to also give you a reward." And then the third condition, there was no reward, right?

再说一次，孩子们本质上很喜欢玩记号笔，然后突然在一种情况下，他们会说：“好吧，现在我要你玩这些记号笔，如果你玩这些记号笔，我会给你奖励。”第二个条件，他们说，“令人惊讶的是，你只是玩标记，但我们也会给你奖励。”然后第三个条件，没有奖励吧？

And where you saw intrinsic motivation go down is when the child knew before they got to play with the markers the second time that they were going to get the reward.

当孩子在第二次玩标记之前就知道他们将获得奖励时，你就会看到内在动机下降。

So they knew they were playing with the markers to get the reward.

所以他们知道他们正在玩标记来获得奖励。

It's unclear to me whether that same confusion would happen with adults.

我不清楚成年人是否也会出现同样的困惑。

So if I know I love this job, and now you're paying me a lot of money to do this job that I love, is it possible that I will get confused and start to think, "Oh, I'm actually doing it because I'm getting paid?" Yes, and I think we can think of people who have had that experience.

因此，如果我知道我喜欢这份工作，而现在你付给我很多钱来做这份我喜欢的工作，我是否会感到困惑并开始思考：“哦，我实际上这样做是因为我得到报酬？”是的，我想我们可以想到有过这种经历的人。

But you can also imagine that as adults, I know what I love, and I'm not even paying attention to how much money I'm being paid, even though I'm being paid.

但你也可以想象，作为成年人，我知道我喜欢什么，我什至不关心我拿了多少钱，尽管我得到了报酬。

What matters here is the confusion.

这里重要的是混乱。

Why am I doing what I'm doing?

我为什么要做我正在做的事情？

And you could imagine with adults, if I'm really clear why I'm doing what I'm doing, that that confusion might be less likely to happen than if I'm not as clear about what I really, really love.

你可以想象对于成年人来说，如果我真的很清楚我为什么要做我正在做的事情，那么与我不太清楚我真正喜欢什么相比，这种困惑可能不太可能发生。

Now, I will say what I just said is very controversial, and I'm sure the psychologists who are listening to this are going to be all up in arms about how that can't be true.

现在，我要说的是，我刚才所说的话是非常有争议的，我相信正在听这句话的心理学家将会全力以赴，认为这不可能是真的。

I think there are multiple theories about how intrinsic motivation works, and I'm drawing for those expert listeners from the attributional approach.

我认为关于内在动机如何发挥作用有多种理论，我正在从归因方法中为那些专家听众提供帮助。

And what matters here is the conclusions one draws from one's actions.

这里重要的是人们从自己的行为中得出的结论。

Why am I doing this?

我为什么要这样做？

Depending on how I answer that will dictate how my motivation flows.

取决于我如何回答，这将决定我的动力如何流动。

If I'm doing it because I'm trying to get the extrinsic rewards, then it becomes extrinsically motivated, and my motivation drops.

如果我这样做是因为我想获得外在奖励，那么它就会变成外在动机，我的动力就会下降。

But you can imagine, again, with adults, those who really know that they love the thing, and they're really certain they love the thing, they may be a little bit more resistant to that.

但你可以想象一下，对于成年人来说，那些真正知道自己喜欢这个东西，并且他们真的确定自己喜欢这个东西的人，他们可能会对此更加抗拒。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Interesting.

有趣。

And as adults, we can also connect dots and expand our why's.

作为成年人，我们也可以将这些点联系起来并扩展我们的原因。

Say, "Well, I love doing this thing, get paid for doing it, and those resources can help me provide for others who I also love." So it's sort of exponential.

说：“嗯，我喜欢做这件事，并因此获得报酬，这些资源可以帮助我为我也爱的其他人提供帮助。”所以它是指数级的。

I remember a salary discussion with my chairman, not at Stanford, but when I was down at UCSD.

我记得我和董事长讨论薪资时，不是在斯坦福大学，而是在加州大学圣地亚哥分校。

I won't mention who it was.

我就不提是谁了。

You'll never figure it out, folks, because there were several chairmen during my time there.

伙计们，你们永远不会明白这一点，因为我在那里期间有几位主席。

And I'll never forget, during a salary negotiation, he said two things.

我永远不会忘记，在薪资谈判期间，他说了两件事。

He said, "A, you can't make more money than me," which seemed fair.

他说：“A，你赚的钱不可能比我多。”这似乎很公平。

He's running the department.

他负责管理这个部门。

I was a junior professor.

我是一名初级教授。

And he said, "And never forget, you're going to make far less money than you deserve for most of your career, and then you're going to make far more money than you deserve at the end of your career." And I remember thinking, like, "That's the worst argument I ever heard to somebody who can't afford housing or whatever." Anyway, Stanford always treated me well.

他说，“永远不要忘记，在你职业生涯的大部分时间里，你赚到的钱将远远少于你应得的钱，然后在你职业生涯结束时，你赚到的钱将远远超过你应得的钱。”我记得我当时想，“这是我听过的对那些买不起住房或其他东西的人最糟糕的争论。”不管怎样，斯坦福一直对我很好。

And in many ways, he was probably right.

从很多方面来说，他可能是对的。

Nobody goes into academic science to make money.

没有人进入学术科学领域是为了赚钱。

It's just not what you do.

这不是你所做的。

You can look at anyone running a lab, certainly in academia, and you can be sure that the amount of work that they're doing reflects their love of discovery and doing science.

你可以看看任何经营实验室的人，尤其是学术界的人，你可以确定他们所做的工作量反映了他们对发现和科学研究的热爱。

I feel very comfortable making that statement.

做出这样的声明我感觉很舒服。

But in a lot of careers, people do make a lot of money for something that they intrinsically loved.

但在很多职业中，人们确实因为自己热爱的事情赚了很多钱。

I'm thinking about performing artists, for instance.

例如，我正在考虑表演艺术家。

And from my friends who are in that world, I think it can create a lot of dissonance, because they'll start taking tours, and they'll start doing album deals simply for the finances, and they get used to a certain lifestyle.

从我在那个世界的朋友那里，我认为这会造成很多不和谐，因为他们会开始巡演，他们会开始做专辑交易只是为了财务，他们习惯了某种生活方式。

Which brings me back to this chop wood, carry water notion and the ikigai.

这让我回到了砍柴、挑水的概念和ikigai。

Is that how you pronounce it?

你是这么发音的吗？

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

Yes, ikigai.

是的，伊贝。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Ikigai notion earlier.

Ikigai 概念较早。

Several of the people who I've observed have incredibly long, super successful, creative careers.

我观察到的一些人拥有令人难以置信的长期、超级成功、富有创造力的职业生涯。

I've been fortunate enough to speak to some of these people and know a few of them, and 100% of them will say that they still engage in a lot of mundane tasks throughout their day.

我很幸运能够与其中一些人交谈并认识他们中的一些人，他们中的 100% 都会说他们每天仍然从事许多平凡的任务。

Yeah, they have a lot of hired help and things like that, but they're still picking up after their kids.

是的，他们雇佣了很多帮手之类的，但他们仍在照顾他们的孩子。

Some of them are still edging the lawn.

其中一些仍在草坪边缘。

They're still doing these things because when they didn't, they thought that all their time would expand into doing their creative work, and they found that wasn't the case.

他们仍在做这些事情，因为当他们不这样做时，他们认为所有的时间都会花在做创造性的工作上，但他们发现事实并非如此。

They actually had lower motivation.

他们实际上动机较低。

And I'm sure there are exceptions to this, but I don't know.

我确信也有例外，但我不知道。

There's really something to this, like staying in the groove of what you were doing in the early to maybe mid portions of your career when you were climbing the rungs.

这确实是有道理的，比如在你职业生涯的早期到中期，当你攀登阶梯时，保持你所做的事情的最佳状态。

It's like a mental muscle.

它就像一块精神肌肉。

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

Yeah.

是的。

It seems to me a little bit like just, I guess as I mentioned before, staying connected to the process, to the way that I used to do things.

在我看来，这有点像我之前提到的，与流程、与我以前做事的方式保持联系。

I will say we have to be really careful, though, because I think this relationship between external rewards and intrinsic motivation can be exploited.

不过，我想说的是，我们必须非常小心，因为我认为外部奖励和内在动机之间的这种关系可以被利用。

So there's some research suggests that when we know somebody loves the job, we don't feel the need to pay them as much because we know they'll do the job anyway, right?

因此，有一些研究表明，当我们知道有人喜欢这份工作时，我们就觉得没有必要付给他们那么多钱，因为我们知道他们无论如何都会做这份工作，对吗？

So whereas if you took two people, one who is intrinsically motivated and one who's extrinsically motivated, you have to pay the extrinsically motivated person a lot more money to do the same job than the person who's intrinsically motivated.

因此，如果你雇用两个人，一个是内在动机的，一个是外在动机的，那么你必须向外在动机的人支付比内在动机的人更多的钱来做同样的工作。

But it begs a lot of questions about fairness.

但这引发了很多关于公平性的问题。

Should you really be paying two people different amount of money when they're doing exactly the same task just because they have differences in motivation?

当两个人做完全相同的任务时，你真的应该仅仅因为他们的动机不同而付给他们不同数额的钱吗？

And in some respects, you're almost rewarding the person that you probably don't want doing the job because they're just doing it for the money as opposed to they really love what they're doing.

在某些方面，你几乎是在奖励那些你可能不想做这份工作的人，因为他们只是为了钱而做，而不是真正喜欢他们所做的事情。

I think a lot of employers would like to have employees who are intrinsically motivated because people who are intrinsically motivated will often do the extra step.

我认为很多雇主都希望拥有具有内在动机的员工，因为具有内在动机的人通常会采取额外的步骤。

They'll do the hard work.

他们会做艰苦的工作。

But again, there's always this concern that they could be exploited because we know because they derive some value from the work itself, that we might have this perception that they don't need to be compensated quite enough.

但同样，人们总是担心他们可能会被剥削，因为我们知道，因为他们从工作本身中获得了一些价值，我们可能会认为他们不需要得到足够的补偿。

So there is this exploitation effect that's really dangerous and pernicious.

因此，这种剥削效应确实是危险且有害的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Are there Any elements of Japanese culture that you wish you saw more of in the United States for, let's just say your students and for young people in general, but maybe adults as well, and vice versa, that in the context of your work?

在你的工作背景下，你希望在美国看到更多日本文化的元素吗？比如说你的学生和一般年轻人，但也许成年人也是如此，反之亦然？

Because they are very different places culturally.

因为他们是文化上非常不同的地方。

Certainly, there's overlap, too.

当然，也存在重叠。

But numerous times across our conversation, on and off microphone, we sort of touched into some of these really incredible concepts in Japan and Japanese culture.

但在我们的谈话中，无论麦克风开启还是关闭，我们多次接触到日本和日本文化中的一些真正令人难以置信的概念。

Certainly, we have them in the United States and elsewhere, too.

当然，我们在美国和其他地方也有它们。

But you're in a unique position to answer this, if you're willing.

但如果你愿意的话，你处于一个独特的位置来回答这个问题。

And I'm always interested in how concepts from other cultures and our own could be looked at.

我一直对如何看待来自其他文化和我们自己文化的概念感兴趣。

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

Well, I should say first and foremost, I'm Japanese American.

好吧，我首先要说的是，我是日裔美国人。

I'm Nisei, so I was born here.

我是Nisei，所以我出生在这里。

So I have never lived in Japan.

所以我从来没有在日本生活过。

So I think a lot of Japanese listeners might say, "Oh, he's not really Japanese." I'm definitely Japanese American.

所以我想很多日本听众可能会说，“哦，他不是真正的日本人。”我绝对是日裔美国人。

My connection to my culture mainly comes from food, because I like eating and cooking, mostly eating.

我与我的文化的联系主要来自食物，因为我喜欢吃和烹饪，主要是吃。

And I also, as I said, I used to practice martial arts.

正如我所说，我也曾经练习过武术。

I used to practice the Japanese martial art, kendo, which is sword fighting.

我曾经练习日本武术剑道，即剑术。

I've never actually thought about this question, so the question that you've asked is a really tough one for me, and I'm going to have to just sort of think on the spot.

我从来没有真正考虑过这个问题，所以你问的问题对我来说是一个非常困难的问题，我必须当场思考。

I think for me one of the things I, again, psychology, I think, is starting to come to grips with it, but a lot of the work on mindfulness, I think, is really interesting and important.

我认为对我来说，心理学，我认为，正在开始认真对待它，但我认为，很多关于正念的工作非常有趣且重要。

But I don't know that we recognize enough is sort of the importance of breaks, opportunities to take your foot off the gas.

但我不知道我们是否充分认识到休息的重要性，以及让你停下来的机会。

Again, I'm not so sure it's Japanese culture in society that they're good at that either.

再说一遍，我不太确定日本社会文化是否也擅长于此。

The stereotype is that they work all the time, so maybe they have just the same problems that we do.

人们的刻板印象是他们一直在工作，所以也许他们和我们面临着同样的问题。

But from the outsider's perspective, at least the notion of mindfulness suggests that there are times where we need to not be so goal-directed and so driven, but instead just enjoy the moment.

但从局外人的角度来看，至少正念的概念表明，有时我们不需要如此目标导向和驱动，而只需享受当下。

But it's not even enjoy the moment like I'm going to enjoy this chocolate cake.

但它甚至不像我要享受这个巧克力蛋糕那样享受这一刻。

It's like just enjoying being here in this moment.

就像只是享受此时此刻的存在。

I think that's an interesting idea that I think in psychology we are wrangling with.

我认为这是一个有趣的想法，我认为在心理学中我们正在争论这个问题。

There's a lot of research in this area, so maybe perhaps it's not quite answering your question.

这个领域有很多研究，所以也许它并不能完全回答你的问题。

The other notions that I think are interesting is just sort of this notion of wabi-sabi, that there's beauty in decay and non-perfection.

我认为有趣的其他概念就是侘寂的概念，即腐烂和不完美中存在着美。

And again, I think that's an idea that can be foreign in the Western cultural space where if we think about our landscaping or we think about what we want, the way that we dress, it has to be perfect, right?

再说一遍，我认为这个想法在西方文化空间中可能是陌生的，如果我们考虑我们的景观或我们想要什么，我们的着装方式，它必须是完美的，对吗？

So we get all this cosmetic surgery, or we buy all these clothes, and if it's one wrinkle, we have to change clothes or whatnot.

所以我们做了所有这些整容手术，或者我们买了所有这些衣服，如果只有一条皱纹，我们就必须换衣服或诸如此类的东西。

You mentioned the word optimization before, that things have to be perfect, where as in Japanese culture, there's a beauty in the imperfection.

您之前提到过“优化”这个词，事物必须完美，就像日本文化一样，不完美也有美感。

In fact, you actually intentionally build in the imperfections to have beauty.

事实上，你实际上是有意地弥补缺陷以获得美丽。

And I think, again, in the context of this conversation that we just had, embracing the suck and starting from the place of not being perfect to try to strive for something better, again, might be an idea that we could incorporate.

我再次认为，在我们刚刚进行的这次对话的背景下，拥抱糟糕并从不完美的地方开始尝试争取更好的东西，再次可能是我们可以纳入的想法。

And we also already talked about ikigai, this idea of finding connection and expansion and meaning, purpose in something really mundane or ritualistic or simple, I think, is also a really interesting idea that might sort of explain some of the lack of happiness that we are currently experiencing in our own culture, where we're constantly future-oriented, and we're always looking for bigger things as opposed to finding beauty in the simple things that we do.

我们也已经讨论过ikigai，这种在真正平凡、仪式或简单的事情中寻找联系、扩展、意义和目的的想法，我认为，也是一个非常有趣的想法，它可能可以解释我们目前在自己的文化中所经历的一些缺乏幸福感的情况，在我们的文化中，我们总是面向未来，我们总是在寻找更大的事情，而不是在我们所做的简单事情中寻找美。

Like the most mundane tasks that we do might be the most important things that we do, but we just don't code it that way because our eyes are on the prize downstream.

就像我们所做的最平凡的任务可能是我们所做的最重要的事情一样，但我们只是不那样编码，因为我们的眼睛着眼于下游的奖品。

And I wonder if that, too, might be an interesting idea worth exploring.

我想知道这是否也是一个值得探索的有趣想法。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's interesting to think about your answer in the context of the mundane or the chop wood, carry water type thing, plug and chug, whatever people want to call it, because therein seems to be at least part, if not all of the operations that we're applying to the big, lofty goals just on repeat with this thing, this concept.

在平凡的背景下思考你的答案是很有趣的，或者砍柴，提水类型的东西，插头和突突，无论人们想怎么称呼它，因为其中似乎至少是部分，如果不是全部，我们正在重复这个东西，这个概念来实现大而崇高的目标。

Like I'm going for this big whatever, trophy, degree, founding a company.

就像我要追求这个伟大的目标，奖杯、学位、创办一家公司。

When we think about external things, but even for people who have a really big family concept.

当我们考虑外部事物时，即使对于那些有很大家庭观念的人来说也是如此。

It's beautiful, right?

很漂亮，对吧？

But I've seen a lot of people crushed under that pressure, too.

但我也看到很多人在这种压力下崩溃了。

And then they end up with a kid who doesn't fit into their family concept, and it's completely destabilizing for all their ideas.

然后他们最终得到了一个不符合他们家庭观念的孩子，这完全破坏了他们所有想法的稳定性。

They thought they could script it out according to their family album-

他们认为可以根据他们的家庭相册来编写剧本——

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

Yeah

是啊

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

from the past.

从过去。

I don't wish these hardships on anyone, and yet they're kind of like the stuff that make life great, too-

我不希望任何人遭受这些苦难，但它们也有点像让生活变得美好的东西——

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

Great

太棒了

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

in a weird way.

以一种奇怪的方式。

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

Yeah, that brings us back to the idea of wabi-sabi, beauty in the imperfection, beauty in the decay, and yeah, we can embrace what is not perfect.

是的，这让我们回到侘寂的理念，不完美中的美，衰败中的美，是的，我们可以拥抱不完美的事物。

Which seems, just sort of thinking about my own life, like wow, in some sense, that's totally foreign.

这似乎只是在思考我自己的生活，就像哇，从某种意义上说，这完全是陌生的。

You're taking pictures, and it has to be the perfect picture, or you're saying this perfect family.

你在拍照，它必须是完美的照片，或者你说这是一个完美的家庭。

We have these mental models of what the goal is, and we only achieve it when you're there.

我们对目标有这些心理模型，只有当你在那里时我们才能实现它。

It's interesting to think about giving some degrees of freedom in that and finding meaning in that.

考虑给予一定程度的自由并从中寻找意义是很有趣的。

I think that's a really interesting idea.

我认为这是一个非常有趣的想法。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, it's actually one place where social media has, in my opinion, has shown a bit of humanity, contrary to the stereotype.

是的，在我看来，这实际上是社交媒体表现出一点人性的地方，与刻板印象相反。

I see a lot of social media stuff, and sure, you'll see incredible feats of artistic or athletic or whatever, and they'll get tons of views and likes.

我在社交媒体上看到了很多东西，当然，你会看到令人难以置信的艺术或体育或其他方面的壮举，并且他们会获得大量的观看和喜欢。

But every once in a while, someone will come along and very authentically confess a failure or come along and just express a hardship that they're going through or a win that doesn't really fall within our normal notions of what a win is.

但每隔一段时间，就会有人非常真实地承认自己的失败，或者只是表达他们正在经历的困难，或者一个不属于我们正常的胜利概念的胜利。

And it's like an avalanche of interest in those.

人们对这些的兴趣就像雪崩一样。

So I think there's a natural ...

所以我认为有一种自然的...

kind of magnetism to these just human elements.

对这些人类元素有一种吸引力。

So, I appreciate you being willing to answer that question on the fly, because it's not within your PubMed profile, but I do believe that the people we are comes to the science we do, and numerous times throughout today's discussion, I've detected these elements of who you are in this, and it's impossible to separate.

所以，我很感激你愿意即时回答这个问题，因为它不在你的 PubMed 个人资料中，但我确实相信我们这些人致力于我们所做的科学，在今天的讨论中，我多次发现了你是谁的这些元素，而且不可能分开。

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So thank you for the consideration.

所以感谢您的考虑。

And as a final question, I'm actually just really curious what you want to do now.

作为最后一个问题，我实际上很好奇你现在想做什么。

What is the experiment you're working on now, or the dream set of experiments that you think can really move the needle forward in your own concept of this work?

您现在正在进行的实验是什么，或者您认为能够真正推动您自己的这项工作概念向前发展的梦想实验集是什么？

Because clearly you're very focused on it, and we're very grateful that you're doing this work.

因为显然您非常专注于此，我们非常感谢您正在做这项工作。

But, what are you most excited about right now?

但是，你现在最兴奋的是什么？

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

One is we tend to think about self-control, again, at the tactic level, what do I do to overcome this temptation?

一是我们倾向于考虑自我控制，同样，在策略层面上，我该怎么做才能克服这种诱惑？

And I think largely overlooked is this idea of what do I want to do, again, because you don't get your goal from a single behavior.

我认为，我想做什么的想法在很大程度上被忽视了，因为你不能通过单一的行为来实现你的目标。

It's through repeated patterns of action.

这是通过重复的行动模式。

So to really come up with better ways to understand repeated patterns of action in the lab or in the field, I think is a major challenge that the field has to take on and hasn't.

因此，为了真正找到更好的方法来理解实验室或现场的重复行为模式，我认为这是该领域必须承担但尚未承担的重大挑战。

And I think one of the reasons why we haven't studied it is because it's so hard.

我认为我们没有研究它的原因之一是因为它太难了。

That's why we go back to these one-shot deals.

这就是我们回到这些一次性交易的原因。

I think that's one of the most important things to think about.

我认为这是需要考虑的最重要的事情之一。

Another is, and again, we talked about this two modes idea.

另一个是，我们再次讨论了这两种模式的想法。

Am I pursuing the one goal or am I pursuing the many?

我是追求一个目标还是追求多个目标？

I think in psychology, we have spent a lot of time focusing on the pursuit of the one, and we haven't really done a good job of sort of embracing the pursuit of the many.

我认为在心理学中，我们花了很多时间专注于对一个人的追求，而我们并没有真正做好拥抱多人的追求。

To the extent that we have, it's usually two goals, so work/life balance, we'll look at how people navigate those.

就我们而言，通常有两个目标，因此工作/生活平衡，我们将看看人们如何实现这些目标。

But as I mentioned before, we have more than two goals at any given time.

但正如我之前提到的，我们在任何特定时间都有两个以上的目标。

So how do we integrate all of these goals?

那么我们如何整合所有这些目标呢？

How do we pursue them all the time?

我们怎样才能一直追求他们呢？

How are we juggling all these balls and keeping track of them?

我们如何处理所有这些球并跟踪它们？

Are there goals that we have that we're not even aware of, that we are actually pursuing?

是否有一些我们甚至没有意识到但实际上正在追求的目标？

Really interested in that.

对此真的很感兴趣。

And then related to that is sort of fitting goals into the broader constellation of all the things that we want, connecting goals to these big underlying values and motivations that we have.

与此相关的是，将目标纳入我们想要的所有事物的更广泛的组合中，将目标与我们拥有的这些重大的潜在价值观和动机联系起来。

That link is not really well understood.

该链接并不是很好理解。

So we talked a little bit about getting our ducks in a row, seeing the whys of a particular-- When you think about your goals, the broader motivations of what motivates them, how did that come to be?

所以我们讨论了一些如何让我们的鸭子排成一排，看看特定的原因——当你思考你的目标时，激励他们的更广泛的动机，这是怎么形成的？

Did our system just know that these things were aligned and now retrospectively we're making the connections?

我们的系统是否知道这些东西是一致的，现在我们正在回顾性地建立联系？

Or does making the connections have an important impact?

或者建立联系会产生重要影响吗？

So not just multiple goals, but also levels of goals and how they connect to more fundamental motives, and how we know that whether a goal is right for us, I think fundamentally requires understanding whether they resonate with these broader motives that we had.

因此，不仅仅是多个目标，还有目标的层次以及它们如何与更基本的动机联系起来，以及我们如何知道一个目标是否适合我们，我认为从根本上需要了解它们是否与我们拥有的更广泛的动机产生共鸣。

And again, as you mentioned also, getting things aligned, like that alignment idea.

再次，正如您所提到的，让事情保持一致，就像对齐的想法一样。

I don't know that we really understand how people do this.

我不知道我们是否真正理解人们是如何做到这一点的。

It's magical.

这很神奇。

When we get it right, we do amazing things.

当我们做得对时，我们就会做出惊人的事情。

How do we know it was the right thing to do?

我们怎么知道这是正确的做法？

There's no textbook, there's no wiring.

没有课本，没有接线。

So what are the cues?

那么有哪些线索呢？

What are the signals?

有哪些信号？

How do we discover what we really want?

我们怎样才能发现自己真正想要的是什么？

Those kinds of things, I think, are the future of our science.

我认为，这些都是我们科学的未来。

I don't know that it's going to require a lot of methodological development, but I think those are the big questions I'd like to see us address.

我不知道这是否需要大量的方法开发，但我认为这些是我希望我们解决的重大问题。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Awesome.

太棒了。

Awesome.

惊人的。

I look forward to seeing what you and your colleagues discover next, and I want to thank you.

我期待看到您和您的同事接下来的发现，我要感谢您。

Thank you so much for coming here today, sharing the work that you've been doing in your lab.

非常感谢您今天来到这里，分享您在实验室所做的工作。

When I discovered your webpage and saw a few things you had done previously, I was like, "I really, really want to sit down and talk to Ken," because I can tell that not only is the work embedded in something that we all grapple with, and that's extremely important to life advancement, no matter how ambitious or non-ambitious somebody is, but it's also clear that you're bringing in a real understanding of just how dynamic our lives are.

当我发现你的网页并看到你之前做过的一些事情时，我想，“我真的非常想坐下来和肯谈谈，”因为我可以看出，这项工作不仅是我们所有人都在努力解决的问题，而且对生活的进步极其重要，无论一个人有多么雄心勃勃或没有雄心勃勃，而且很明显，你正在真正了解我们的生活是多么充满活力。

It's not one goal, and studying these things in isolation has served us well, I think, in the past, in building a framework, but I think it's just terrific the way that you're throwing your arms around all of it.

这不是一个目标，我认为，在过去，孤立地研究这些东西对我们构建一个框架很有帮助，但我认为，你拥抱所有这些东西的方式真是太棒了。

And as I mentioned before, it's clear whether you intended it or not, that you bring a lot of humanity to this in considering, yes, there are answers.

正如我之前提到的，很明显，无论你是否有意，你在考虑问题时充满了人性，是的，有答案。

They vary.

它们各不相同。

You need a dynamic toolbox, and yet there's evidence that certain things really work.

您需要一个动态工具箱，但有证据表明某些东西确实有效。

So I know I'm going to incorporate a number of things that you shared today, and I know our listeners will as well, and so thank you for doing the work you do.

所以我知道我将纳入您今天分享的许多内容，我知道我们的听众也会这样做，所以感谢您所做的工作。

Please come back again and update us as things evolve, and once again, really appreciate you.

请再次回来并随着事情的发展向我们通报最新情况，再次非常感谢您。

Dr. Kentaro Fujita:

藤田健太郎博士：

Really honored to be here.

真的很荣幸来到这里。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Kentaro Fujita.

感谢您参加今天与藤田健太郎博士的讨论。

To learn more about his work, please see the links in the show note captions.

要了解有关他的作品的更多信息，请参阅演出注释标题中的链接。

If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.

如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。

That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.

这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。

In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple.

此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的关注按钮来关注播客。

And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.

在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。

And you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.

您现在可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。

Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.

另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。

That's the best way to support this podcast.

这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。

If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab Podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.

如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客、嘉宾或您希望我考虑在 Huberman 实验室播客中讨论的主题有意见，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。

I do read all the comments.

我确实阅读了所有评论。

For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.

对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。

It's my very first book.

这是我的第一本书。

It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.

它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这本书是我花了五年多时间编写的，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验。

And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.

它涵盖了从睡眠到运动再到压力控制的所有协议，以及与注意力和动机相关的协议，当然，我为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。

The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.

该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。

There you can find links to various vendors.

在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。

You can pick the one that you like best.

您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。

Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." And if you're not already following me on social media, I am hubermanlab on all social media platforms.

同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 hubermanlab。

So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.

这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。

And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab Podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab Podcast.

在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。

Again, it's hubermanlab on all social media platforms.

再说一遍，所有社交媒体平台上都是 hubermanlab。

And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.

如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。

We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.

我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。

All of that is available completely zero cost.

所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。

You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter, and enter your email.

您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的“菜单”选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件即可。

And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.

我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。

Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Kentaro Fujita.

再次感谢您参加今天与藤田健太郎博士的讨论。

And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.

最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。

Speaker 3:

演讲者3：

"I don't think I can be your friend," Isabella said.

“我想我不能成为你的朋友，”伊莎贝拉说。

Rebecca's stomach flipped.

丽贝卡的胃翻腾起来。

This is the love story of real Hinge couple Isabella and Rebecca, written and read by me, Tembi Denton-Hurst.

这是真实的铰链夫妇伊莎贝拉和丽贝卡的爱情故事，由我 Tembi Denton-Hurst 撰写和阅读。

Listen to the free audiobook now.

立即收听免费有声读物。