Male vs. Female Brain Differences & How They Arise From Genes & Hormones | Dr. Nirao Shah
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Dr. Nirao Shah.
今天我的嘉宾是 Nirao Shah 博士。
Dr. Nirao Shah is a professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences and neurobiology at Stanford University School of Medicine.
Nirao Shah 博士是斯坦福大学医学院精神病学、行为科学和神经生物学教授。
Dr. Shah is both an MD and a PhD, and his laboratory focuses on understanding the neural and hormonal mechanisms underlying sex differences in the brain.
沙阿博士既是医学博士又是博士，他的实验室致力于了解大脑性别差异背后的神经和激素机制。
During today's episode, we discuss what is known about male and female differences in brain structure and function, and how those differences arise across development, both in utero and postnatally.
在今天的节目中，我们将讨论男性和女性在大脑结构和功能方面的差异，以及这些差异如何在子宫内和产后的发育过程中产生。
That is, during puberty and into adulthood.
也就是说，在青春期和成年期。
A lot of our discussion centers around testosterone and estrogen, and how both of those hormones play a profound impact on the development of both the male and female brain, but leads to different outcomes in male versus female brains.
我们的很多讨论都围绕睾酮和雌激素，以及这两种激素如何对男性和女性大脑的发育产生深远的影响，但却导致男性和女性大脑的不同结果。
We also discuss the neural circuits that control sex behavior and aggressive behavior in both males and females, and how those are activated by different hormones.
我们还讨论了控制男性和女性性行为和攻击行为的神经回路，以及不同激素如何激活这些神经回路。
As you all know, there is immense interest and a lot of controversy around sex differences and how that relates to gender.
众所周知，人们对性别差异及其与性别的关系怀有极大的兴趣，也存在很多争议。
Today's discussion centers around the biology of sex differences in the brain and body, and it will provide a very useful template for everybody in thinking about male versus female differences in behavior, in emotions, and how that intersects with gender and culture.
今天的讨论围绕大脑和身体性别差异的生物学展开，它将为每个人提供一个非常有用的模板，帮助他们思考男性与女性在行为、情感上的差异，以及这些差异如何与性别和文化相交叉。
As you'll soon see, Dr. Shah is a true expert in understanding sex differences in the brain and body and how those arise.
正如您很快就会看到的那样，沙阿博士是了解大脑和身体性别差异以及这些差异如何产生的真正专家。
He's also unafraid of addressing what is known and unknown about those differences and their origins, and he embraces that sex differences are one of the most impactful aspects of human biology and health.
他也不害怕解决这些差异及其起源的已知和未知问题，并且他认为性别差异是人类生物学和健康中最具影响力的方面之一。
So by the end of today's episode, you will indeed have the most up-to-date information on this important topic.
因此，在今天的节目结束时，您确实将获得有关这个重要主题的最新信息。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.
为了与这个主题保持一致，今天的节目确实有赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Nirao Shah.
现在我与 Nirao Shah 博士进行讨论。
Dr. Nirao Shah, welcome.
Nirao Shah 博士，欢迎光临。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Thank you, Andrew.
谢谢你，安德鲁。
Pleasure to be here.
很高兴来到这里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You work on one of the most interesting topics in the entire world, which is sex differences in the brain and the impact of hormones on the brain, on behavior.
您研究的是全世界最有趣的主题之一，即大脑中的性别差异以及激素对大脑和行为的影响。
Let's start with a very straightforward question.
让我们从一个非常简单的问题开始。
Are there male/female differences in terms of brain structure and function?
男性/女性的大脑结构和功能是否存在差异？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yes.
是的。
Let me qualify that.
让我来限定一下。
So we work on the mouse brain, and we and others have identified lots of differences in structure, in connections, in numbers of neurons, numbers of cells in the brain, and also my own lab is focused on identifying differences in gene expression between females and males.
因此，我们对小鼠大脑进行研究，我们和其他人已经发现了大脑结构、连接、神经元数量、细胞数量方面的许多差异，而且我自己的实验室也致力于识别雌性和雄性之间基因表达的差异。
And there are huge differences.
并且存在巨大的差异。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For the topics we're going to discuss today, I know that we're going to lean heavily on mouse data, but I think it's fair to say that because so much of those data rely on the structure and function of the hypothalamus, which you'll educate us on, how conserved is the hypothalamus between mouse and human?
对于我们今天要讨论的主题，我知道我们将严重依赖小鼠数据，但我认为可以公平地说，因为这些数据中有很多依赖于下丘脑的结构和功能，您将教育我们，小鼠和人类之间的下丘脑有多保守？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
I would say anatomically, from an atlas, if you're just looking at atlases of humans and mice, they're very conserved.
我想说的是，从解剖学角度来看，如果你只是看人类和小鼠的地图集，就会发现它们是非常保守的。
You can point to regions in the mouse brain, the ventromedial hypothalamus, for example, the VMH, which we might talk about, controls aggression and other behaviors, female sexual behavior.
你可以指出小鼠大脑中的区域，即下丘脑腹内侧区，例如我们可能会谈论的VMH，它控制着攻击性和其他行为，例如女性性行为。
You can say, "This is the VMH in the mouse," and you can basically pinpoint the same region of the human brain, and it's turning out to be clinically relevant as well in humans.
你可以说，“这是小鼠的 VMH”，你基本上可以精确定位人脑的同一区域，而且事实证明它在人类中也具有临床相关性。
You can do the same thing for the preoptic area, which controls maternal behaviors, preoptic male sexual behavior, and we can identify the same region in the human brain as well.
你可以对控制母亲行为、视前男性性行为的视前区做同样的事情，我们也可以在人脑中识别出相同的区域。
So anatomically, there are very similar analogs in the human hypothalamus as there are in the mouse.
因此，从解剖学角度来看，人类下丘脑与小鼠下丘脑有非常相似的类似物。
And this region is conserved because it controls, as you point out, very fundamental functions: reproduction, aggression, taking care of young, thirst, temperature.
正如你所指出的，这个区域是保守的，因为它控制着非常基本的功能：繁殖、攻击、照顾幼崽、口渴、温度。
So these tend to be conserved because you don't want to muck with a circuit that's already functioning, that's essential for survival.
因此，这些往往会被保留下来，因为你不想破坏已经在运行的电路，这对生存至关重要。
So you can find analogs of these structures all the way from birds across vertebrates, from birds, lizards, rodents, non-human primates, and humans.
因此，你可以在鸟类、脊椎动物、鸟类、蜥蜴、啮齿动物、非人类灵长类动物和人类中找到这些结构的类似物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think many people lean toward the idea that humans are so different than mice, and they like that idea because it somehow, I don't believe this, but I think it somehow gives them the impression that they have more degrees of freedom over their feelings and behavior than perhaps they would if we were a slave to our hypothalamus or something of that sort.
我认为很多人倾向于这样的观点，即人类与老鼠如此不同，他们喜欢这个观点，因为它不知何故，我不相信这一点，但我认为它在某种程度上给他们留下了这样的印象：他们对自己的感受和行为有更多的自由度，而不是如果我们是下丘脑或类似东西的奴隶。
But studies on the human, as you and I know, where different hypothalamic circuitries have been stimulated, reveal that you can elicit rage, you can elicit sexual desire, behavior, and on and on in a human just as you can in a mouse.
但正如你我所知，对人类的研究表明，不同的下丘脑回路受到刺激，你可以在人类身上引发愤怒、性欲、行为等等，就像在老鼠身上一样。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I think we are different in the sense that we have a huge cortical neural volume.
我认为我们的不同之处在于我们拥有巨大的皮质神经体积。
We have a huge cortex, and that gives us many more degrees of freedom in deciding when and what to do and where to do it.
我们有一个巨大的大脑皮层，这让我们在决定何时、做什么以及在哪里做时有更多的自由度。
So there is flexibility granted by that enormous expansion of the cortex.
因此，大脑皮层的巨大扩张赋予了灵活性。
But the basal structure for those behaviors, the hypothalamus and the amygdala, are very conserved.
但这些行为的基础结构——下丘脑和杏仁核——是非常保守的。
So the behaviors exist, of course, it's encoded in the brain.
所以行为当然是存在的，它是在大脑中编码的。
But we can control them or inhibit them, if you will, and in appropriate moments.
但如果你愿意的话，我们可以在适当的时候控制或抑制它们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So we've all heard of nature versus nurture, and I think that's a very relevant theme as we wade into this topic of sex differences in the brain and sex hormones and behavior.
所以我们都听说过先天与后天的对比，我认为当我们深入探讨大脑中的性别差异以及性激素和行为时，这是一个非常相关的主题。
Could you explain for us how it is that hormones act on genetics in order to set up a bias for behavior?
您能否为我们解释一下激素如何作用于遗传学以建立行为偏见？
And for those that are familiar with the idea that nature and nurture are both involved, which should be everybody, what I'm getting at here is this notion of organizing effects of hormones versus activating effects.
对于那些熟悉先天和后天都参与这一概念的人来说，应该是每个人，我在这里得到的是激素的组织效应与激活效应的概念。
You'll educate us on what those are.
您将告诉我们这些是什么。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
So we work on hormones like testosterone, estrogen, progesterone, which are steroid hormones.
所以我们研究睾酮、雌激素、黄体酮等激素，这些都是类固醇激素。
And as you pointed out, Andrew, they act at least two different stages of life.
正如你所指出的，安德鲁，他们至少经历了人生的两个不同阶段。
And early on in development, at embryonic stages in some species, like in humans, in utero When the woman's pregnant or in mice just at birth, perinatally, just after birth.
在发育早期，在某些物种的胚胎阶段，例如人类，在子宫内，当妇女怀孕时，或在小鼠中，在出生时、围产期、出生后不久。
These hormones generate what is thought to be an irreversible differentiation of the brain along a female or a male pathway.
这些激素导致大脑沿着女性或男性途径产生不可逆的分化。
So they sort of set the circuits, if you will, so that these behaviors can then be displayed in adult life after puberty when the hormones kick back in again.
因此，如果你愿意的话，他们会设置回路，以便在青春期后荷尔蒙再次恢复时，这些行为可以在成年生活中表现出来。
So after this early critical period, and I know you've talked about critical periods before in your podcast, there's a critical window that is species-specific when hormones sort of organize the brain, sort of irreversibly set down circuits.
因此，在这个早期的关键期之后，我知道你之前在播客中谈到过关键期，当激素某种程度地组织大脑，某种不可逆转地建立电路时，有一个物种特异性的关键窗口。
And then, the gonads, testes, and ovaries go quiescent until puberty hits.
然后，性腺、睾丸和卵巢进入静止状态，直到青春期来临。
And then at puberty, the hormones come back on again, and then they activate, if you will, these circuits so that adult behaviors can be displayed.
然后在青春期，荷尔蒙再次出现，然后它们激活（如果你愿意的话）这些回路，以便可以表现出成人的行为。
But the circuits were sort of initially laid down at some point in development.
但这些电路最初是在开发过程中的某个阶段制定的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that the presence of a Y chromosome is really the key differentiating factor for setting up circuitries to be more male-like or female-like in the brain, so these organizing effects.
如果我错了，请纠正我，但我的理解是，Y 染色体的存在确实是在大脑中设置更像男性或女性的电路的关键区分因素，因此这些组织效应。
Could you explain what's on the Y chromosome?
你能解释一下Y染色体上有什么吗？
Actually, you should probably remind everybody how chromosomes and genes work very briefly, right?
事实上，你可能应该简单地提醒大家染色体和基因是如何工作的，对吧？
Twenty-three sets of chromosomes, and then we have the sex chromosomes.
二十三组染色体，然后是性染色体。
If you don't mind educating us just on chromosomes, and then how the presence of a Y chromosome is really the key deterministic factor, not just if you get a male or a female as it's on a birth certificate, but the whole kit and caboodle in terms of brain structure and function as well as genitalia.
如果你不介意只告诉我们染色体，那么 Y 染色体的存在如何真正成为关键的决定性因素，不仅仅是出生证明上的男性或女性，而是大脑结构和功能以及生殖器的整个套件。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Sure.
当然。
So as you pointed out, there are 23 sets of chromosomes, and there's a set of chromosomes called autosomes, which are identical between males and females, and they're completely conserved.
正如你所指出的，有23组染色体，其中有一组染色体称为常染色体，它们在男性和女性之间是相同的，并且它们是完全保守的。
They're the same.
他们是一样的。
And then females have a set of chromosomes, the sex chromosomes, referred to as X chromosome and Y chromosome.
然后女性有一组染色体，即性染色体，称为X染色体和Y染色体。
And females have two X chromosomes, X and X, and males have an X chromosome and a Y chromosome.
女性有两条X染色体，X和X，男性有一条X染色体和一条Y染色体。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Those are the sex chromosomes.
这些就是性染色体。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Those are the sex chromosomes.
这些就是性染色体。
So males have XY, females have XX.
所以男性有XY，女性有XX。
Okay.
好的。
And the Y chromosome is very special in the sense that it has, on the chromosome, sits a gene called SRY, sex determining region on the Y, SRY gene.
Y 染色体非常特殊，因为它在染色体上有一个称为 SRY 的基因，即 Y SRY 基因上的性别决定区。
And this gene essentially dictates whether or not the embryo will have testes or not.
这个基因本质上决定了胚胎是否有睾丸。
And then if the embryo has testes, then they'll make testosterone and masculinize both genitalia and the brain and the rest of the body.
然后，如果胚胎有睾丸，那么它们就会产生睾酮，并使生殖器、大脑和身体其他部位男性化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In utero?
在子宫里？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
In utero.
在子宫内。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
So just to step back for people that aren't so familiar with how chromosomes and genes work upstream of hormones.
对于那些不太熟悉染色体和基因如何在激素上游发挥作用的人来说，请退后一步。
So what you're telling us is 22 sets of autosomes, then we have the sex chromosomes.
所以你告诉我们的是 22 组常染色体，然后我们就有了性染色体。
In females, it's XX, in males, it's XY.
女性为 XX，男性为 XY。
On the Y chromosome, there's this SRY gene.
在Y染色体上，有一个SRY基因。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
There's a single gene, SRY.
有一个基因，SRY。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the presence of that gene means that there will be RNA and then protein made.
该基因的存在意味着将会产生 RNA，然后产生蛋白质。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's correct.
这是正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And some of those proteins will cause the development of the testes, and then the testes will secrete testosterone in utero and shape the brain for its potential to be male when puberty happens later on, right?
其中一些蛋白质会引起睾丸的发育，然后睾丸会在子宫内分泌睾酮，并塑造大脑，以便在青春期稍后发生时使其具有男性的潜力，对吧？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yes.
是的。
Let me qualify that.
让我来限定一下。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Okay.
好的。
So SRY is a transcription factor, which means it is a gene that encodes a protein from RNA.
所以SRY是一种转录因子，这意味着它是一个从RNA编码蛋白质的基因。
It gets transcribed into RNA, and then RNA gets made into protein.
它被转录成RNA，然后RNA被制成蛋白质。
And the protein's a transcription factor, SRY protein.
该蛋白质是一种转录因子，SRY 蛋白质。
And what that means is it sort of can regulate expression of other genes.
这意味着它可以调节其他基因的表达。
So it can sort of switch on or silence suites of genes that take the bipotential gonad.
因此，它可以打开或沉默具有双潜能性腺的基因组。
So the gonad, before it becomes testes or ovaries, is a bipotential gonad.
因此，性腺在成为睾丸或卵巢之前，是双潜能性腺。
It can go either way.
两种方式都可以。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
At what stage of embryonic development in human is the gonad bipotential?
人类胚胎发育的哪个阶段性腺具有双潜能？
It could become male or female.
它可以变成男性或女性。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
It's thought that it's early, late first or early second trimester.
人们认为这是妊娠早期、妊娠早期晚期或中期妊娠早期。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So as late as the second trimester, the gonads are equipotential.
因此，直到妊娠中期，性腺才处于等电位。
They could become male or female, and which direction they go depends entirely on the presence of this SRY transcription factor.
它们可以变成男性或女性，而它们的走向完全取决于这种 SRY 转录因子的存在。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
And the same is true in the mouse as well.
鼠标也是如此。
So in the mouse, the gonads are bipotential until day 12 of gestation.
因此，小鼠的性腺在妊娠第 12 天之前都是双能的。
Mouse gestation is about 20 days.
小鼠妊娠期约为20天。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So does this mean that prior to the beginning of the second trimester, because the SRY transcription factor isn't active yet, that the brain of the fetus is essentially identical between males and females?
那么这是否意味着在妊娠中期开始之前，由于SRY转录因子尚未激活，胎儿的大脑在男性和女性之间本质上是相同的呢？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's the thinking, yes.
就是这样的想法，是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
And that's same is true in the mouse.
鼠标也是如此。
In fact, in the mouse, which is our model organism in the laboratory, the brain is thought to be bipotential right almost until birth.
事实上，在小鼠（我们在实验室中的模型生物）中，大脑几乎在出生之前就被认为是双电位的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
And I'm sure we'll get into this, but the organizing effect of testosterone, as we sort of talked about, can in fact be detected even as late as after birth in the mouse.
我确信我们会讨论这个问题，但正如我们所讨论的，睾酮的组织作用实际上甚至可以在小鼠出生后检测到。
So you can take a female mouse at birth and give it testosterone, and you can masculinize her behaviors down the road.
因此，你可以在一只雌性老鼠出生时给它注射睾酮，然后你就可以使她的行为男性化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But she doesn't have testes.
但她没有睾丸。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
So the simple act of giving testosterone will do that.
因此，给予睾酮的简单行为就可以做到这一点。
So that's the organizing action of testosterone, irreversible differentiation of a bipotential brain along a male pathway with testosterone.
这就是睾酮的组织作用，双能大脑沿着睾酮的男性通路进行不可逆转的分化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, but in humans, as early as the second trimester beginning, the SRY transcription factor kicks on.
好的，但在人类中，早在妊娠中期开始时，SRY 转录因子就会启动。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My understanding, based on my training from some years ago, hopefully this is still true, you'll correct me if it's not, is that some of the genes downstream of SRY start to suppress the Müllerian ducts, the fallopian tubes, and instead you get testes and the vas deferens and basically all the structure for delivering sperm out of the penis for copulation later in life.
根据我几年前的训练，我的理解是，希望这仍然是正确的，如果不是，请纠正我，SRY下游的一些基因开始抑制苗勒氏管、输卵管，取而代之的是睾丸和输精管，以及基本上所有将精子从阴茎输送出来以便在以后的生活中交配的结构。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
So SRY sort of takes the gonad, makes it into a testes.
所以 SRY 有点把性腺变成了睾丸。
The testes secretes at least two hormones that we know about that are very important for sexual differentiation.
睾丸至少分泌两种我们所知的对性别分化非常重要的激素。
One is testosterone, which people have heard about, and the other is an anti-Müllerian hormone.
一种是人们都听说过的睾酮激素，另一种是抗苗勒氏管激素。
And this hormone from the testes sort of suppresses differentiation of the uterus and the vaginal tract.
这种来自睾丸的激素会抑制子宫和阴道的分化。
Okay.
好的。
And the fallopian tubes.
还有输卵管。
And the ovaries, right?
还有卵巢，对吗？
So you get a testes that suppresses female gonadal development, genitalia development, and you have testosterone that takes a bipotential genitalia and then masculinizes them, and you get a penis and a scrotal sac.
因此，你会得到一个抑制女性性腺发育和生殖器发育的睾丸，并且你会得到睾丸激素，它会产生双能性生殖器，然后将它们男性化，你会得到一个阴茎和一个阴囊。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And what about the role of dihydrotestosterone?
那么二氢睾酮的作用又如何呢？
My understanding is that the development of the male brain and the development of male genitalia was strongly dictated also by dihydrotestosterone.
我的理解是，男性大脑的发育和男性生殖器的发育也很大程度上取决于二氢睾酮。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
So the action of dihydrotestosterone, which is a derivative of testosterone from a single enzyme, 5-alpha-reductase, converts testosterone and makes it into dihydrotestosterone or DHT.
因此，二氢睾酮（一种来自单一酶 5-α-还原酶的睾酮衍生物）的作用可将睾酮转化为二氢睾酮或 DHT。
The action of DHT is best understood on the external genitalia.
DHT 在外生殖器上的作用最容易被理解。
So DHT acts on the same receptor as testosterone does, the androgen receptor, except it binds at much higher affinities, so it's a much more potent activator of the receptor.
因此，DHT 作用于与睾酮相同的受体，即雄激素受体，只不过它的结合亲和力要高得多，因此它是一种更有效的受体激活剂。
And this activation of the receptor in the external genitalia tissue really is what gives you masculinization of the penis and the scrotal sac.
外生殖器组织中受体的激活确实使阴茎和阴囊男性化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what I'm taking from this is that the hormones themselves shape circuitries in the brain.
所以我从中得出的结论是，激素本身塑造了大脑中的回路。
We'll talk about how that happens.
我们将讨论这是如何发生的。
They shape the external genitalia, but unless you have the SRY transcription factor, you won't get the suppression of the ovaries and the Mullerian ducts and all of that stuff.
它们塑造外生殖器，但除非你有 SRY 转录因子，否则你不会受到卵巢和缪勒管等所有东西的抑制。
So it's not as if the presence of androgens, testosterone, and DHT to a female XX chromosomal fetus will make that female fetus male.
因此，女性 XX 染色体胎儿中雄激素、睾酮和 DHT 的存在并不会使该女性胎儿变成男性。
It's really the presence of that SRY gene.
这确实是 SRY 基因的存在。
You need suppression of femaleness, plus you need amplification of maleness, so to speak.
可以这么说，你需要抑制女性气质，同时还需要放大男性气质。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's exactly right, yeah.
完全正确，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, so the reason I'm asking all of this and the reason we're painting this tapestry of hormones and genes, et cetera, is because, as you know, these days it's very controversial out there as to when sex versus gender is established.
好吧，所以我问所有这些问题以及我们绘制荷尔蒙和基因等的挂毯的原因是因为，如你所知，现在对于性别与性别何时建立存在很大争议。
And some of that, I think, is born of political leanings, but it's also born of this understanding that there's perhaps a continuum between masculinity and femininity.
我认为，其中一些源于政治倾向，但也源于这种理解，即男性气质和女性气质之间可能存在连续体。
That you can find males that are in the extreme stereotype of maleness.
你可以找到具有极端男性刻板印象的男性。
You can find females that are at the extreme stereotype of femaleness in terms of behavior and external morphology, right?
你会发现女性在行为和外在形态上都处于极端的女性刻板印象中，对吗？
Presence of breasts, et cetera.
乳房的存在等等。
But that there seems to be a continuum of phenotypes.
但似乎存在一个连续的表型。
But when it comes down to the genetic biology, it really is about the presence of this SRY gene.
但当谈到遗传生物学时，它实际上与 SRY 基因的存在有关。
That seems to be the deterministic factor.
这似乎是决定性因素。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
So you can even have SRY sort of hop chromosomes from a Y chromosome onto an autosome.
因此，您甚至可以将 SRY 类型的跳跃染色体从 Y 染色体转移到常染色体上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's happened?
就这样发生了？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's happened.
事情就这样发生了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In humans?
在人类身上？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
In humans and in mice.
在人类和小鼠中。
And if that happens, you can have a full complement of XX chromosomes, can be female, but SRY is sitting on an autosome, and then that animal becomes a male.
如果发生这种情况，你可以拥有完整的 XX 染色体，可以是雌性，但 SRY 位于常染色体上，然后该动物就变成雄性。
So you can have XX males as well.
所以你也可以有XX男性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's not the Y chromosome, per se.
所以它本身不是Y染色体。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
It's the gene, SRY.
这是基因，SRY。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So one gene-
所以一个基因——
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
One gene
一个基因
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
SRY determines maleness or femaleness.
SRY决定男性或女性。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
And if you take away SRY, if you mutate it, for example, genetically with experiments on the mouse or naturally occurring mutations in humans, loss of function of SRY, you will have XY females.
如果你去掉SRY，如果你对其进行突变，例如，通过小鼠实验或人类自然发生的突变，SRY功能丧失，你将拥有XY雌性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
It's really all about SRY.
这确实是关于 SRY 的。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The entire political debate, not sociological debate, but the entire political debate as to whether or not someone is male or female, if you wanted to boil it down to a biological factor, it's one factor.
整个政治辩论，不是社会学辩论，而是关于某人是男性还是女性的整个政治辩论，如果你想将其归结为生物因素，那么它就是一个因素。
It's SRY.
这是SRY。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The presence of SRY.
SRY的存在。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
To make a female or a male, yes.
制造女性或男性，是的。
A chromosomal genetic female or male would be SRY.
染色体遗传女性或男性将是 SRY。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Maui Nui Venison.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 Maui Nui Venison。
Maui Nui Venison is the most nutrient-dense and delicious red meat available.
毛伊努伊鹿肉是营养最丰富、最美味的红肉。
It's also ethically sourced.
它也是有道德来源的。
Maui Nui hunts and harvests wild access deer on the island of Maui.
毛伊努伊 (Maui Nui) 在毛伊岛上狩猎和收获野生鹿。
This solves the problem of managing an invasive species while also creating an extraordinary source of protein.
这解决了管理入侵物种的问题，同时也创造了非凡的蛋白质来源。
As I've discussed on this podcast before, most people should aim for getting one gram of quality protein per pound of body weight each day.
正如我之前在此播客中讨论过的那样，大多数人的目标应该是每天每磅体重摄入一克优质蛋白质。
This allows for optimal muscle protein synthesis while also helping to reduce appetite and support proper metabolic health.
这可以实现最佳的肌肉蛋白质合成，同时还有助于降低食欲并支持适当的代谢健康。
Given Maui Nui's exceptional protein-to-calorie ratio, this protein target is achievable without having to eat too many calories.
鉴于毛伊努伊岛卓越的蛋白质与卡路里比率，无需摄入太多卡路里即可实现这一蛋白质目标。
Their venison delivers 21 grams of protein with only 107 grams per serving, which is an ideal ratio for those of us concerned with maintaining or increasing muscle mass while supporting metabolic health.
他们的鹿肉提供 21 克蛋白质，每份仅 107 克，对于我们这些关心维持或增加肌肉质量同时支持代谢健康的人来说，这是一个理想的比例。
They have venison steaks, ground venison, and venison bone broth.
他们有鹿肉排、鹿肉末和鹿骨汤。
I personally love all of them.
我个人很喜欢他们所有人。
In fact, I probably eat a Maui Nui venison burger pretty much every day.
事实上，我可能几乎每天都会吃毛伊努伊鹿肉汉堡。
And if I don't do that, I eat one of their steaks, and sometimes I also consume their bone broth.
如果我不这样做，我就会吃他们的一份牛排，有时我也会喝他们的骨汤。
And if you're on the go, they have Maui Nui venison sticks, which have 10 grams of protein per stick with just 55 calories.
如果您在旅途中，他们还提供毛伊努伊鹿肉棒，每棒含有 10 克蛋白质，仅含有 55 卡路里热量。
I eat at least one of those a day to meet my protein requirements.
我每天至少吃其中一种来满足我的蛋白质需求。
Right now, Maui Nui is offering Huberman podcast listeners a limited collection of my favorite cuts and products.
现在，Maui Nui 正在为 Huberman 播客听众提供我最喜欢的剪辑和产品的限量收藏。
It's perfect for anyone looking to improve their diet with delicious, high-quality protein.
对于那些希望通过美味、优质蛋白质来改善饮食的人来说，它是完美的选择。
Supplies are limited, so go to mauinuivenison.com/huberman to get access to this high-quality meat today.
供应有限，因此请立即访问 mauinuivenison.com/huberman 获取这种高品质肉类。
Again, that's mauinuivenison.com/huberman.
同样，这是 mauinuivenison.com/huberman。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Eight Sleep.
今天的节目也是八觉给我们带来的。
Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep-tracking capacity.
八睡眠公司生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。
One of the best ways to ensure a great night's sleep is to make sure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct, and that's because in order to fall and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees.
确保一夜好眠的最佳方法之一是确保睡眠环境的温度正确，这是因为为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，您的体温实际上必须下降约一到三度。
And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees.
为了醒来时感觉神清气爽、精力充沛，您的体温实际上必须升高约一到三度。
Eight Sleep automatically regulates the temperature of your bed throughout the night according to your unique needs.
八睡眠会根据您的独特需求自动调节整个晚上的床温。
Eight Sleep has just launched their latest model, the Pod 5, and the Pod 5 has several new important features.
八睡眠刚刚推出了他们的最新型号 Pod 5，Pod 5 有几个新的重要功能。
One of these new features is called Autopilot.
这些新功能之一称为自动驾驶仪。
Autopilot is an AI engine that learns your sleep patterns to adjust the temperature of your sleeping environment across different sleep stages.
Autopilot 是一款人工智能引擎，可以学习您的睡眠模式，以调整不同睡眠阶段的睡眠环境温度。
It also elevates your head if you're snoring, and it makes other shifts to optimize your sleep.
如果您打鼾，它还会抬高您的头部，并进行其他转换以优化您的睡眠。
The base on the Pod 5 also has an integrated speaker that syncs to the Eight Sleep app and can play audio to support relaxation and recovery.
Pod 5 的底座还配有一个集成扬声器，可与八睡眠应用程序同步，并可以播放音频以支持放松和恢复。
The audio catalog includes several NSDR, Non-Sleep Deep Rest scripts that I worked on with Eight Sleep to record.
音频目录包括我与八睡眠一起录制的几个 NSDR、非睡眠深度休息脚本。
If you're not familiar, NSDR involves listening to an audio script that walks you through a deep body relaxation combined with some very simple breathing exercises.
如果您不熟悉，NSDR 涉及聆听音频脚本，该音频脚本将引导您进行深度身体放松，并结合一些非常简单的呼吸练习。
It's an extremely powerful tool that anyone can benefit from the first time and every time.
这是一个极其强大的工具，任何人第一次和每次都可以从中受益。
If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, go to eightsleep.com/huberman to get up to $350 off the new Pod 5.
如果您想尝试八睡眠，请访问八睡眠.com/huberman，新款 Pod 5 最高可享受 350 美元优惠。
Eight Sleep ships to many countries worldwide, including Mexico and the UAE.
八号睡眠船运往世界各地的许多国家，包括墨西哥和阿联酋。
Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $350.
同样，访问八睡眠.com/huberman 最多可节省 350 美元。
A couple examples that I learned about years ago, tell me if these are still considered true, is that for instance, there are XY people.
我几年前了解到的几个例子，告诉我这些是否仍然被认为是真实的，例如，有 XY 人。
So they have the SRY gene.
所以他们有SRY基因。
They make testosterone and dihydrotestosterone, but they have a mutant copy of the androgen receptor.
它们产生睾酮和二氢睾酮，但它们具有雄激素受体的突变体。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Those people do not have ovaries, so they're infertile as a female.
这些人没有卵巢，因此作为女性不育。
They also, however, don't have testes or the testes don't descend.
然而，它们也没有睾丸或睾丸不会下降。
They make testosterone, but the body can't respond to the testosterone.
它们产生睾酮，但身体无法对睾酮做出反应。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So they look female, maybe a little bit smaller breast development, et cetera.
所以她们看起来是女性，也许乳房发育得小一点，等等。
But they look female, but they are infertile-
但她们看上去是女性，却不能生育——
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as women.
作为女性。
And if you were to rely on the presence of SRY gene as a definition of maleness or being male, they qualify.
如果你依靠 SRY 基因的存在来定义男性或男性，那么它们就符合资格。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you rely on the presence of testosterone, they qualify, but there've been no action of testosterone.
如果你依赖睾酮的存在，他们符合资格，但睾酮没有发挥作用。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so they go through life, at least until puberty, thinking that they're female.
因此，她们终其一生，至少到青春期，都认为自己是女性。
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's correct.
这是正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
The parents think they're females.
父母认为他们是女性。
They think they're females.
他们认为自己是女性。
Their peers think they're females.
他们的同龄人认为他们是女性。
They look completely feminized.
她们看起来完全女性化了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How common is that?
这种情况有多常见？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
It's not that common.
这种情况并不常见。
I'm not going to get the exact numbers right, but I think it's 1 in 10,000 maybe, or 1 in 20,000.
我无法给出准确的数字，但我认为可能是万分之一，或者两万分之一。
These numbers are changing all the time as diagnostic tests get better, but it's not that common.
随着诊断测试的改进，这些数字一直在变化，但这种情况并不常见。
But that's still a significant number of human beings-
但这仍然是相当多的人——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
...
...
you're talking about.
你说的是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then my understanding is there's also a mutation where people lack the enzyme that converts testosterone to dihydrotestosterone.
然后我的理解是，还有一种突变，人们缺乏将睾酮转化为二氢睾酮的酶。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So they're born appearing female.
所以他们一出生就表现为女性。
They have SRY, the gene, this deterministic gene.
他们有SRY，这个基因，这个决定性基因。
They make testosterone, it doesn't convert to dihydrotestosterone.
它们产生睾酮，但不会转化为二氢睾酮。
Then puberty rolls around, and they go from having what the parents and they thought was a vagina and a clitoris, and they sprout a penis.
然后青春期到来，他们不再拥有父母和他们认为的阴道和阴蒂，而是长出了阴茎。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How common is that?
这种情况有多常见？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
It's not that common.
这种情况并不常见。
I think it's more common in places where there's consanguinous marriages, so in some villages in some countries it's fairly common.
我认为这在有近亲结婚的地方比较常见，所以在一些国家的一些村庄里这是相当普遍的。
And they even have sort of local dialect names for this condition.
他们甚至为这种情况提供了当地方言的名称。
I forget what it's called in those languages.
我忘记了那些语言中它叫什么。
So it's called a penis at 12 syndrome in sort of medical textbooks.
所以在医学教科书中，这被称为“阴茎12岁综合症”。
Because as you said, they sprout a penis at 12 because the early penile development and the scrotal sac development depends on DHT, which is a much more potent activator of the androgen receptors.
因为正如你所说，他们在 12 岁时就长出了阴茎，因为早期的阴茎发育和阴囊发育依赖于 DHT，而 DHT 是一种更有效的雄激素受体激活剂。
If you can't have DHT, then testosterone alone cannot masculinize the external genitalia.
如果你没有双氢睾酮，那么单独的睾酮就无法使外生殖器男性化。
It's feminized early on, but after puberty, when the testosterone levels go up again, that level of testosterone is now sufficient to differentiate the external genitalia into a penis.
它很早就女性化了，但在青春期之后，当睾酮水平再次上升时，睾酮水平现在足以将外生殖器分化为阴茎。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So in the strictest sense, the presence of the SRY gene is deterministic for maleness.
所以从最严格的意义上来说，SRY基因的存在对于男性来说是决定性的。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not even just the Y chromosome, it's really SRY-
它甚至不只是Y染色体，它真的是SRY-
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
SRY gene
SRY基因
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
gene on the Y chromosome.
Y染色体上的基因。
Because as you point out, if the SRY gene is on a different chromosome because it got translocated there, then you still get a male fetus.
因为正如你所指出的，如果 SRY 基因因为易位而位于不同的染色体上，那么你仍然会得到男性胎儿。
Is it also fair to say that the absence of the SRY gene is what determines femaleness?
是否可以说 SRY 基因的缺失决定了女性的性别？
Or are there a separate set of deterministic genes that designate femaleness?
或者是否存在一组单独的确定性基因来指定女性？
Some people might be confused by this question only because what I'm not being clear about is you could imagine that it's the presence, yes, of SRY that creates maleness, and in its absence, you just get a female by default.
有些人可能会对这个问题感到困惑，因为我不清楚的是，你可以想象，是的，SRY 的存在创造了男性，而如果没有 SRY，你就会默认得到女性。
Or it could be that there's a deterministic female gene that makes the brain and body of females female.
或者可能存在一种决定性的女性基因，使女性的大脑和身体成为女性。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
So that's not known in mammals, at least.
所以至少在哺乳动物中这是未知的。
There's no single gene that's been identified in mammals, in mouse or humans, that determines femaleness.
在哺乳动物、小鼠或人类中，没有发现任何单一基因可以决定女性特征。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So no gene that if placed onto a Y chromosome would drive the differentiation of that fetus to female.
因此，如果将基因置于 Y 染色体上，则不会驱动该胎儿分化为女性。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
What does that tell us about human evolution?
这告诉我们有关人类进化的什么信息？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
I don't know what it says about evolution.
我不知道进化论说的是什么。
It says that there's a genetically programmed pathway, that in the fetus, in the absence of SRY, will give you a female body and a brain.
它说有一个基因编程途径，在胎儿中，在缺乏 SRY 的情况下，会给你一个女性的身体和大脑。
Right?
正确的？
So that pathway, the genetic program exists, and that SRY sort of tamps it down and boosts maleness.
因此，这条途径、基因程序是存在的，而 SRY 会抑制它并增强男性特征。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, I want to get back to sex differentiation and behavior in a moment, but I want you to tell me if the news report from a few years ago that California condors can reproduce from two females, is that true?
好吧，我想稍后再回到性别分化和行为，但我想让你告诉我，几年前的新闻报道说加州秃鹰可以从两只雌性身上繁殖，这是真的吗？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
I've not seen that report.
我没有看到那个报道。
I don't know.
我不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Years ago, when I was at Berkeley, there was a graduate student in our program who was studying a species of moles that live in Tilden Park, and these moles apparently can transdifferentiate their ovaries into testes, depending on the population numbers of males versus females, is why I asked about evolution.
几年前，当我在伯克利时，我们项目中的一名研究生正在研究生活在蒂尔登公园的一种鼹鼠，这些鼹鼠显然可以将它们的卵巢转分化为睾丸，具体取决于雄性和雌性的人口数量，这就是我询问进化论的原因。
You could imagine that if such a capacity existed, that could be very beneficial for the propagation of a species.
你可以想象，如果存在这样的能力，那对物种的繁殖可能非常有利。
Like if you run out of males-
就像如果你没有男性一样——
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a female can turn her ovaries into testes and reproduce with another female.
雌性可以将她的卵巢变成睾丸并与另一雌性繁殖。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or if you run out of females, the males could transdifferentiate their testes into ovaries.
或者，如果雌性用完，雄性可以将睾丸转分化为卵巢。
This sort of alludes to the idea that this business of X chromosomes and Y chromosomes and genes on Y chromosomes, in theory, if we were to zoom out from human existence, we're at one point in human existence, you could imagine that there was a kind of a larger control over this so that our numbers never run out.
这暗示了这样一种想法，即 X 染色体、Y 染色体以及 Y 染色体上的基因，理论上，如果我们缩小人类存在的范围，我们正处于人类存在的某个时刻，你可以想象对此有一种更大的控制，这样我们的数量就永远不会耗尽。
What are your thoughts on that?
您对此有何看法？
I'm not talking about where the origin of control would be, but how plastic, how variable is this?
我不是在谈论控制的起源在哪里，而是它的可塑性、可变性有多大？
Or is it like the SRY gene is on the Y chromosome 99.9999% of the time, and therefore, these instances of translocation on X chromosomes is kind of rare?
还是说 SRY 基因 99.9999% 的时间都位于 Y 染色体上，因此 X 染色体上的易位实例很少见？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
It is rare.
这是罕见的。
So let me point out that SRY Is not even determining sex across all vertebrates.
因此，我要指出的是，SRY 甚至无法决定所有脊椎动物的性别。
Okay, so it's not as if birds have an SRY.
好吧，看来鸟类没有 SRY。
Most genes, as you know, Andrew, most genes are conserved between, say, birds and humans.
大多数基因，正如你所知，安德鲁，大多数基因在鸟类和人类之间是保守的。
The way you get the axis of the animal developing from front to back, controlled by HOX genes, is very conserved from birds to humans.
动物的轴从前向后发育的方式由 HOX 基因控制，从鸟类到人类都是非常保守的。
And there's a similar set of genes even in flies.
即使在果蝇中也有一组相似的基因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Even the placement of the eyes.
就连眼睛的位置也是如此。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One gene, PAX6-
一个基因，PAX6-
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
PAX6.
PAX6。
That's right
没错
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
places eyes on the front of the head.
将眼睛放在头部的前面。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
But SRY is sort of special.
但 SRY 有点特别。
So birds don't have an SRY.
所以鸟类没有SRY。
Flies don't have an SRY.
苍蝇没有 SRY。
And in fact, SRY has been evolving very quickly.
事实上，SRY 的发展速度非常快。
So many genes you can take from the human genome and put in the mouse, and can get mouse mutations rescued.
你可以从人类基因组中取出如此多的基因并将其放入小鼠体内，并且可以挽救小鼠的突变。
But you can't do that with SRY.
但 SRY 无法做到这一点。
So it's been mutating so fast because it's important for speciation, and protecting the sort of species advantages that led to the development of that species.
所以它变异得如此之快，因为它对于物种形成很重要，并保护导致该物种发展的物种优势。
So you can't take SRY and move it between species.
所以你不能服用 SRY 并在物种之间转移它。
Not only that, but as you sort of were alluding to, there are many species in which invertebrates in which SOY is not even relevant for sexual differentiation and determination.
不仅如此，正如您所提到的，在许多无脊椎动物物种中，大豆甚至与性别分化和性别决定无关。
What happens is, as you point out, population densities can regulate that, temperature can regulate that, sex differentiation.
正如您所指出的，所发生的情况是，人口密度可以调节，温度可以调节性别分化。
I think it's true in alligators and crocodiles maybe, and certainly adult fish can transdifferentiate from female to male as well.
我认为这在短吻鳄和鳄鱼身上可能是正确的，当然成年鱼也可以从雌性转分化为雄性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow, I didn't realize it was that common.
哇，我没有意识到这种情况如此普遍。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it makes sense for these ectotherms that regulate their temperature based on the environment.
但这对于这些根据环境调节温度的变温动物来说是有意义的。
Look, every species' main goal is to make more of itself, and protect its young.
看，每个物种的主要目标都是让自己变得更好，并保护其后代。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
And protect the advantages it has as a species in the ecological environment it finds itself in.
并保护其作为一个物种在其所处的生态环境中所具有的优势。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right?
对吗？
So you don't exchange gene pools between species, for example, right?
例如，你不会在物种之间交换基因库，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
There's a whole other discussion.
还有一个完整的其他讨论。
Years ago, I think you and I attended a talk where somebody working on Drosophila, a species of flies, said that Drosophila prefer to mate with Drosophila as opposed to other species.
几年前，我想你和我参加了一次演讲，其中一位研究果蝇（一种苍蝇）的人说，果蝇更喜欢与果蝇交配，而不是与其他物种交配。
And this gets a little bit kind of gross/edgy when you start thinking about, why is it that species maintain reproduction basically within species?
当你开始思考，为什么物种基本上在物种内部维持繁殖时，这会变得有点恶心/尖锐？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One hopes.
一个希望。
As well as sex behavior within species, and as you point out, every species is vying for itself.
正如您所指出的，除了物种内的性行为外，每个物种都在为自己而竞争。
In fact, we had a plant biologist on here recently.
事实上，最近我们这里有一位植物生物学家。
The plants are making things to kill off their predators, limit their fecundity.
这些植物正在制造东西来杀死它们的捕食者，限制它们的繁殖力。
Let's talk about how hormones downstream of SRY, or the absence of those hormones, shape the brain, because I think people listening to this certainly know people of both sexes, right?
让我们来谈谈SRY下游的激素，或者这些激素的缺乏，如何塑造大脑，因为我认为听这个的人肯定认识男女，对吧？
And I don't think it's that politically edgy to say that most people probably believe that men and women, boys and girls even, respond very differently to the same stimuli.
我认为大多数人可能认为男人和女人，甚至男孩和女孩对相同刺激的反应截然不同，这在政治上并不尖锐。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the stereotype here is, she started playing with dolls from the beginning.
这里的刻板印象是，她从一开始就开始玩洋娃娃。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He picked up a stick and pretended it was a weapon from the moment that he picked up a stick.
他拿起一根棍子，从拿起棍子的那一刻起，就假装这是一件武器。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Prior to puberty, prior to the testes secreting testosterone.
青春期之前，睾丸分泌睾酮之前。
So what is known about hormone-based differentiation of the brain in terms of maleness and femaleness?
那么，我们对大脑基于激素的男性和女性分化了解多少呢？
And let's just, for the moment, suspend all politics, all stereotypes, and just ask, what does the biology say?
让我们暂时搁置所有政治、所有刻板印象，只问一下，生物学怎么说？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
So there are a couple of classic experiments in the field done in the 1950s that really speak to this, this sort of organizational differentiation effect of hormones.
因此，20 世纪 50 年代在该领域进行的一些经典实验确实说明了激素的这种组织分化效应。
And then we've done some additional work in the mouse that also relates to this.
然后我们在鼠标中做了一些与此相关的额外工作。
And then there are human conditions that can inform this discussion as well.
此外，人类的状况也可以为这场讨论提供参考。
So the first experiment I would like to talk about is by Charles Phoenix in 1959, I think.
我想我想谈论的第一个实验是查尔斯·菲尼克斯 (Charles Phoenix) 在 1959 年进行的。
And he did this experiment on guinea pigs, and guinea pigs become female, masculinized, or feminized in utero, prenatally, just like humans do.
他在豚鼠身上做了这个实验，豚鼠在子宫内、产前就变成了雌性、雄性化或雌性化，就像人类一样。
And if he gave testosterone to the pregnant female, then females that were born to that mother had seen testosterone, their brains had seen testosterone in development in utero, and when they were born and became adults, they had probability of mating like a male, like sexual mating, having sexual behaviors like a male.
如果他给怀孕的雌性提供睾丸激素，那么该母亲所生的雌性就会看到睾丸激素，它们的大脑会看到睾丸激素在子宫内发育，当它们出生并成年时，它们就有可能像雄性一样交配，就像性交配一样，有像雄性一样的性行为。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So thrusting behavior.
如此推力行为。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Thrusting behavior.
推力行为。
And they had very little receptivity, sort of female-type receptive behaviors.
而且她们的接受能力非常差，有点女性式的接受行为。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which in rodents, is typically lordosis.
在啮齿类动物中，典型的是脊柱前凸。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The arching of the back.
背部拱起。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
People who have cats know about this, for example.
例如，养猫的人都知道这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Cats in heat will lordose.
发情的猫会驼背。
And even if he gave the females, adult females who had seen testosterone early on, if he gave these adult females boosts with estrogen and progesterone to increase female sexual behavior in these females, they had very little displays of female sexuality.
即使他给这些雌性，即早期接触过睾酮的成年雌性，如果他给这些成年雌性补充雌激素和黄体酮以增加这些雌性的女性性行为，它们也很少表现出女性性行为。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So-
所以——
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
They still mounted like males.
它们仍然像雄性一样上马。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, so the exposure of females to testosterone in utero-
好吧，那么女性在子宫内接触睾酮的情况-
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
sets up a program whereby their sexual behavior appears more male-like.
制定一个计划，使他们的性行为看起来更像男性。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thrusting behavior, and lack of lordosis.
推力行为，缺乏脊柱前凸。
So there's the presence of something and the absence of something.
因此，存在某物的存在和某物的不存在。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What about aggression?
那么攻击性呢？
Were they more aggressive?
他们更具攻击性吗？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That paper didn't look at aggression.
那篇论文没有讨论侵略行为。
We've done that in the mouse, and you basically see the same thing.
我们已经在鼠标中做到了这一点，你基本上看到了同样的事情。
Now, in mouse, sexual differentiation, as we talked about earlier, happens right at birth or just around birth.
现在，在小鼠中，正如我们之前提到的，性别分化发生在出生时或出生前后。
So we could take day-one pups, and if you give them testosterone, these females become territorial like males as adults.
所以我们可以拿第一天的幼崽，如果你给它们睾丸激素，这些雌性成年后就会像雄性一样有领地意识。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
So territorialism is a male-specific trait?
那么领土主义是男性特有的特征吗？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
In mice.
在老鼠身上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In mice.
在老鼠身上。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Male mice are territorial.
雄性老鼠有领地意识。
Female mice, at least in laboratory, don't fight as much, except when they're mothers and nursing a litter.
雌性小鼠，至少在实验室里，不会那么频繁地打架，除非它们是母亲并且正在哺乳一窝幼崽。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Maternal aggression is very real.
母亲的攻击性是非常真实的。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is it testosterone-mediated?
它是睾酮介导的吗？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
We don't know.
我们不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, so Exposure to testosterone in utero sets up male-like behaviors in female offspring, is what I'm hearing.
好吧，我听到的是，在子宫内接触睾酮会使女性后代产生类似男性的行为。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm aware of at least one condition in humans where this might occur, which is when there's either a tumor or stress-induced stimulation, or overstimulation of the adrenal glands.
我知道人类至少有一种情况可能会发生这种情况，即当存在肿瘤或压力引起的刺激或肾上腺过度刺激时。
And of course, the adrenals make adrenaline and cortisol, but also they have a layer of cells that produce androstenedione, which is an androgen.
当然，肾上腺会产生肾上腺素和皮质醇，而且它们还有一层细胞会产生雄烯二酮，这是一种雄激素。
What is the outward appearance of female babies born to women who had an overactive adrenal during pregnancy?
怀孕期间肾上腺过度活跃的女性所生的女婴的外观是什么样的？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So I think you're referring to congenital adrenal hyperplasia, which is a mutation in an enzyme that typically makes cortisol.
所以我认为你指的是先天性肾上腺增生，这是一种通常产生皮质醇的酶的突变。
And this happens in the baby itself.
这发生在婴儿身上。
So the baby is a mutant for this enzyme.
所以婴儿是这种酶的突变体。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, so the baby's adrenals are the ones that are disrupted in this condition.
哦，那么在这种情况下，婴儿的肾上腺就会受到破坏。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
And because they can't make cortisol, these sort of precursors to cortisol get shunted into making, as you pointed out, androgens.
因为它们不能产生皮质醇，所以正如你所指出的，这些皮质醇的前体被转而产生雄激素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Because as excess precursor, it just gets shunted off into a different pathway.
因为作为过量的前体，它只是被分流到不同的途径。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
So these babies, these females, are born with sort of masculinized external genitalia.
所以这些婴儿，这些女性，生来就具有男性化的外生殖器。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Based not on the presence of testes or testosterone, but-
不是基于睾丸或睾酮的存在，而是——
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Or SRY, but presence of testosterone, of androgens, right?
或 SRY，但存在睾酮、雄激素，对吗？
Because the adrenals are now pumping out androgens rather than cortisol.
因为肾上腺现在排出的是雄激素而不是皮质醇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are the androgens that come from the adrenals the same in terms of they bind the androgen receptor just like testosterone would?
来自肾上腺的雄激素在结合雄激素受体方面是否与睾酮一样相同？
So they look like testosterone.
所以它们看起来像睾酮。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Actually, some years ago, androstenedione was the topic of a lot of news stories because of Mark McGwire, the baseball player-
事实上，几年前，雄烯二酮因为棒球运动员马克·麦奎尔而成为很多新闻报道的话题——
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
I see
我明白了
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
was accused of taking androstenedione.
被指控服用雄烯二酮。
It's not hard to see the differences in his physical size from one season to the next.
不难看出他的身体尺寸在一个赛季与下一个赛季之间的差异。
Whether or not he did that or not, I don't know if it was ever confirmed.
无论他是否这样做，我不知道这是否得到证实。
I think it was.
我想是的。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
I see.
我明白了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We can ask him.
我们可以问他。
I don't want to put anything on him that-
我不想把任何东西加在他身上-
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
wasn't true, but that's what the news claimed.
这不是真的，但这就是新闻所声称的。
And you could buy androstenedione in the GNC.
你可以在 GNC 中购买雄烯二酮。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Huh.
呵呵。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But the adrenals make testosterone-like substances-
但肾上腺会产生类似睾酮的物质——
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Androgens, yeah
雄激素，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in this person that doesn't have the capacity to make enough cortisol.
这个人没有能力产生足够的皮质醇。
So what does the female offspring look like?
那么雌性后代长什么样子呢？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
She has sort of masculinized external genitalia.
她的外生殖器有点男性化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
And that can be surgically corrected because now doctors are aware of this condition, so they can surgically correct that.
这可以通过手术纠正，因为现在医生已经意识到这种情况，所以他们可以通过手术纠正。
And you can give the baby, when she's born, cortisol, because that's absolutely essential for survival.
当婴儿出生时，你可以给她注射皮质醇，因为这对于生存来说是绝对必要的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So she's XX, genetically female.
所以她是XX，基因上是女性。
She has no SRY gene.
她没有SRY基因。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
She made too much testosterone in utero, so the clitoris resembles a penis.
她在子宫内产生过多的睾丸激素，因此阴蒂类似于阴茎。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
More or less.
或多或少。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the reason I say more or less is not to be facetious, it's that there's a continuum there.
我之所以说或多或少，并不是为了开玩笑，而是因为那里有一个连续体。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
There's a continuum, yeah.
有一个连续体，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
And it depends on exactly when the androgens kicked in from the adrenals, yeah.
是的，这取决于雄激素何时从肾上腺开始发挥作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it could be an enlarged clitoris, or it could be a small penis, or it could be a normal-sized penis.
所以它可能是一个增大的阴蒂，或者它可能是一个小阴茎，或者它可能是一个正常大小的阴茎。
It just depends on how much androgen and when.
这仅取决于雄激素的数量和时间。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
She's virilized, as we say, right.
正如我们所说，她被男性化了，对吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Virilized.
男性化。
Okay.
好的。
Does she have facial hair?
她有面部毛发吗？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
As a baby, no.
作为一个婴儿，没有。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, okay.
哦，好吧。
Later?
之后？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
No, I mean, it surgically was corrected for, right, as I pointed out.
不，我的意思是，正如我指出的那样，它通过手术得到了纠正。
You give cortisol to the females.
你给雌性提供皮质醇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But she's fertile as a female because she still makes ovaries because she doesn't have the SRY gene, correct?
但作为女性，她具有生育能力，因为她仍然会产生卵巢，因为她没有 SRY 基因，对吗？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right, yeah.
没错，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow, all right.
哇，好吧。
What about stress-induced androgen release in the pregnant mother?
怀孕母亲因压力引起雄激素释放怎么办？
Does that arrive to the fetus?
它会到达胎儿吗？
So let's assume there's a female fetus.
所以我们假设有一个女性胎儿。
Everything's progressing normally.
一切都在正常进行。
She has normal adrenal function, but mom, who also has normal adrenals, no CAH mutation, goes through a period of extreme stress, is making a lot of cortisol, but also a lot of androstenedione.
她的肾上腺功能正常，但妈妈的肾上腺功能也正常，没有 CAH 突变，经历了一段极度压力的时期，会产生大量皮质醇，但也会产生大量雄烯二酮。
Or maybe she has a challenge stress that requires she produce more androgens, which happens.
或者也许她面临着挑战压力，需要她产生更多的雄激素，这种情况就会发生。
Does the baby see those androgens, and does it partially masculinize or virilize, as you said, the fetus?
婴儿是否看到了这些雄激素，是否如您所说，使胎儿部分男性化或男性化？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
There's no reason why the baby won't see the testosterone or the androgens.
婴儿没有理由看不到睾酮或雄激素。
Because it's lipid, it should cross over into cells.
因为它是脂质，所以它应该进入细胞。
Whether or not it affects the behavior, I don't know, actually, the human data on that.
它是否会影响行为，实际上我不知道这方面的人类数据。
Or whether or not it virilizes her, I don't know the data on that.
或者说这是否会侮辱她，我不知道这方面的数据。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But we know stress during pregnancy is not good.
但我们知道怀孕期间的压力并不好。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
It's not good, yeah.
这不太好，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's associated with higher incidence of schizophrenia and things like that.
它与精神分裂症等疾病的高发病率有关。
But we don't know that it's because of stress-induced release of androgens.
但我们不知道这是因为压力引起的雄激素释放。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is that right?
是这样吗？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
At least I don't know.
至少我不知道。
Right.
正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think it's just an important thing to distinguish because if people will hear, "Oh, goodness, I had a stressful second trimester," or something of that sort.
我认为区分这一点很重要，因为如果人们会听到，“哦，天哪，我度过了一个压力很大的中期妊娠”，或者诸如此类的事情。
To step back for a moment before going into more of these kind of naturally occurring experiments, I don't know if that's the proper way to think about it, but they are, they're naturally occurring outcomes.
在进行更多此类自然发生的实验之前，先退后一步，我不知道这是否是正确的思考方式，但它们是，它们是自然发生的结果。
How much variation is there in terms of masculine to feminine phenotypes at birth?
出生时男性和女性表型有多大差异？
Has anyone ever looked at that?
有人看过吗？
We sort of present, like, "It's a baby girl.
我们有点像，“这是一个女婴。
It's a girl."
是个女孩。”
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
"It's a boy," right?
“是个男孩，”对吧？
The gender reveal thing or whatever.
性别揭示了一些事情或其他什么。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
On the ultrasound, "It's a boy." Okay, there's no penis, it's a girl.
超声波检查显示，“是个男孩。”好吧，没有阴茎，是个女孩。
And there's other markers, too.
还有其他标记。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That people have gotten quite good at recognizing male versus female fetus on the basis of a number of different things, but most notably, the absence of a penis is generally driving the conclusion it's a female.
人们已经非常擅长根据许多不同的因素来识别男性和女性胎儿，但最值得注意的是，没有阴茎通常会得出女性的结论。
Until chromosomal typing is done.
直到染色体分型完成。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But what is the range in terms of phenotypes, right?
但表型的范围是多少，对吧？
Has anyone ever actually explored that?
有人真正探索过吗？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
I think Johns Hopkins had a program to do that about 50 years ago.
我认为约翰·霍普金斯大学大约 50 年前就有一个项目可以做到这一点。
And I think back then, at least, it was just the size of the penis that said this is a boy or not, or the external genitalia.
我想，至少在那时，只是阴茎的大小或外生殖器决定了这是不是男孩。
I don't know what the current criteria are.
我不知道现在的标准是什么。
I'm not a practicing MD.
我不是执业医师。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You are an MD, though.
不过，你是一名医学博士。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
I am an MD.
我是一名医学博士。
I don't practice, though, yes.
不过，我不练习，是的。
So I don't know what the current criteria are, but with karyotyping, you can easily tell.
所以我不知道目前的标准是什么，但是通过核型分析，你可以很容易地判断出来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You look whether or not it's XX or XY.
你看看是不是XX还是XY。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Well, thank you for saying that, because the reason I asked that question is that some years ago, there were these reports of people who had grown up being treated as a male, having received testosterone injections or something like that, and then later discovered that they have XX chromosomes.
嗯，谢谢你这么说，因为我问这个问题的原因是几年前，有一些报道称，那些从小就被当作男性对待的人，接受过睾酮注射或类似的东西，然后后来发现他们有XX染色体。
Other people reported having XX chromosomes, never been treated with anything, but they thought they appeared male because they had one of these conditions that increased testosterone.
其他人报告说他们有 XX 染色体，从未接受过任何治疗，但他们认为自己看起来是男性，因为他们患有其中一种会增加睾酮水平的疾病。
And my understanding at the time was that the level of okayness, I don't even know what the word is, the level of okayness of the person with how they were raised, oriented very strongly with whether or not they were XX or XY, not which hormones they had seen during development.
我当时的理解是，良好程度，我什至不知道这个词是什么，一个人的良好程度与他们的成长方式有关，非常强烈地以他们是否是 XX 或 XY 为导向，而不是他们在发育过程中看到了哪些激素。
In other words, if somebody had XX chromosomes, no SRY gene, but was exposed to a lot of androgens, maybe from their adrenals or elsewhere, a drug that the mom was treated with during pregnancy, perhaps, that they would hit puberty, and they didn't feel "right." And in fact, genetically, they were female.
换句话说，如果某人有 XX 染色体，没有 SRY 基因，但接触了大量的雄激素，可能来自肾上腺或其他地方，母亲在怀孕期间接受的一种药物，也许，他们会进入青春期，并且感觉不“正确”。事实上，从基因上来说，她们是女性。
And then the reverse cases were also true.
然后相反的情况也是如此。
And oftentimes, these people would seek corrective hormone therapy or surgeries.
通常，这些人会寻求纠正性激素疗法或手术。
So what I'm talking about here is actually the opposite of what we hear so much controversy about today, where people want to switch.
所以我在这里所说的实际上与我们今天听到的很多争议相反，人们想要改变。
These are people who were forced by their parents and their doctors to be raised a certain way that did not match their chromosomes, and it-
这些人被父母和医生强迫以某种与他们的染色体不匹配的方式抚养长大，而它——
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
generally did not feel good to them.
一般来说，他们感觉不好。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What does that tell us about the role of genes in establishing maleness or femaleness of the brain?
这告诉我们基因在确定大脑男性或女性特征方面的作用是什么？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
So we can go back to the condition we talked about earlier, at puberty, you sprout a penis, because you had a deficiency in alpha-reductase, so you're not making DHT.
所以我们可以回到我们之前讨论过的情况，在青春期，你会长出阴茎，因为你缺乏α-还原酶，所以你不会产生双氢睾酮。
Right?
正确的？
So these kids were raised as girls because the external genitalia look like they're feminized.
所以这些孩子被当作女孩抚养长大，因为他们的外生殖器看起来像是女性化的。
But as soon as they hit puberty, and they start getting virilized, they get this sprout of penis, as you put it, many of them switch over to being boys and becoming men.
但一旦他们进入青春期，他们开始变得男性化，他们就会长出阴茎，正如你所说，他们中的许多人转变为男孩并成为男人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Happily?
高兴吗？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
I guess so.
我想是的。
I mean, they switch, right?
我的意思是，他们交换了，对吗？
It's not forced on them.
这不是强迫他们的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, so they voluntarily-
好吧，所以他们自愿——
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
go in the direction of their XY chromosomes.
沿着 XY 染色体的方向前进。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because in theory, they could, well, it's tricky because they're now making testosterone, so they're sort of in a-
因为从理论上讲，他们可以，嗯，这很棘手，因为他们现在正在制造睾丸激素，所以他们有点-
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Well, they've always been making testosterone, it's just they had not been making DHT.
嗯，他们一直在制造睾酮，只是他们没有制造 DHT。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Ah.
啊。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Sorry to interrupt, but-
抱歉打扰，但是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, no, please.
不，不，拜托。
You're being accurate
你说得很准确
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
So testosterone can still act on the brain, remember, during development.
所以记住，在发育过程中，睾酮仍然可以作用于大脑。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what you're basically saying is that the growth of the penis is largely determined by DHT.
所以你基本上是说阴茎的生长很大程度上是由DHT决定的。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
Early on, yes.
早期，是的。
Pre-pubertal.
青春期前。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then after puberty, it's controlled by testosterone.
青春期后，它会受到睾丸激素的控制。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
But testosterone's sufficient to drive penile development, yeah.
但睾丸激素足以推动阴茎发育，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it.
明白了。
Okay.
好的。
Goodness, what does this tell us?
天哪，这告诉我们什么？
Does this tell us again that XX versus XY is really the driver of one's own sex preference?
这是否再次告诉我们，XX 与 XY 确实是一个人自身性别偏好的驱动力？
And I don't mean sexual preference for partner, I mean sex preference, like of their own sexual identity.
我并不是指对伴侣的性偏好，而是指性别偏好，比如他们自己的性别认同。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yeah.
是的。
At least that's what these natural variations tell us, right?
至少这些自然变化告诉我们的是这样的，对吧？
These, as you put it, natural experiments tell us.
正如你所说，这些是自然实验告诉我们的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
The same is true for complete androgen insensitivity syndrome, in which humans have this mutation in the androgen receptor, so they can't see testosterone.
完全雄激素不敏感综合症也是如此，在这种综合症中，人类的雄激素受体发生了这种突变，因此他们看不到睾酮。
And as we discussed, they are completely feminized externally, but they have testes because they're XY.
正如我们所讨论的，她们的外表完全女性化，但她们有睾丸，因为她们是 XY 的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right?
对吗？
So they have testes, but they're feminized, and they think of themselves as females.
所以他们有睾丸，但他们女性化了，他们认为自己是女性。
They were raised as females.
她们被当作女性抚养长大。
They look like females.
他们看起来像女性。
It's just at puberty, they don't start menstruating.
刚到青春期，还没有来月经。
So they go to the clinic, they're diagnosed as XY with an SRY, but not responsive to testosterone.
所以他们去诊所，被诊断为 XY 并带有 SRY，但对睾酮没有反应。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
So their inability to respond to testosterone sort of feminized them.
因此，她们无法对睾丸激素做出反应，这使得她们女性化了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is a tricky topic because we haven't injected how people are socialized.
这是一个棘手的话题，因为我们没有注入人们如何社交。
We haven't-
我们还没有——
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
No
否
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
talked about pink versus blue clothing, which is socialization.
谈论粉色与蓝色服装，这是社交化。
It's a choice, obviously, but a strong choice that statistically, you just see that-
显然，这是一个选择，但从统计数据来看，这是一个强有力的选择，你会看到——
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
almost across the board, unless people deliberately go against that.
几乎是全面的，除非人们故意反对。
It all seems so clear and straightforward based on the presence or absence of this SRY gene.
根据这个 SRY 基因的存在与否，这一切看起来都那么清晰和直接。
Until I start looking at the genetics, which I did in anticipation of this episode, and I discovered that one in 12 people, which is a very high number, is heterozygous for congenital adrenal hyperplasia, meaning they have one mutant copy, one healthy copy.
直到我开始研究遗传学，我是为了这一集而做的，我发现十二分之一的人（这是一个非常高的数字）是先天性肾上腺增生杂合子，这意味着他们有一个突变副本，一个健康副本。
They're fertile, which is probably why it's so prevalent.
它们具有生育能力，这可能就是它如此流行的原因。
And yet those people make less cortisol and more androgen in response to a stressor.
然而，这些人在应对压力时会产生更少的皮质醇和更多的雄激素。
So then you say, well, okay, maybe as a fetus, they were making a bit more androgen.
那么你会说，好吧，也许在胎儿时期，他们产生了更多的雄激素。
So is that going to drive a kind of hyper-maleness, in a XY baby, and it's maybe going to drive a little bit more maleness, a little bit less femaleness in an XX baby?
那么，这是否会导致 XY 婴儿的过度男性化，并且可能会导致 XX 婴儿的男性化程度增加一点，女性化程度减少一点？
I mean, it starts getting really tricky.
我的意思是，事情开始变得非常棘手。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
It is very tricky.
这非常棘手。
What is known is that boys who have congenital adrenal hyperplasia seem to be completely like boys.
已知的是，患有先天性肾上腺增生症的男孩看起来完全像男孩。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're fertile?
他们有生育能力吗？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
They're fertile, and the behavior seems to be unchanged as well.
它们具有生育能力，而且行为似乎也没有改变。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
So it's not as if they're hyper.
所以他们并不显得亢奋。
They're not hyper-masculinized.
他们并不是超级男性化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're not hyper-masculinized.
他们并不是超级男性化。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
At least that's what the data suggests, yes.
至少数据表明是这样，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
But of course, we don't know what the measures are.
但当然，我们不知道这些措施是什么。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
We don't know what the measures are, and we don't know what social-cultural exposures they had as well in the environment.
我们不知道采取的措施是什么，也不知道他们在环境中接触过哪些社会文化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Having grown up in a very conventional home with respect to these things, I mean, it's like looking back and comparing to what I see now.
我的意思是，我是在一个非常传统的家庭长大的，这就像回顾过去并与我现在所看到的进行比较。
It's so vastly different, and I was born in 1975, so it kind of blows my mind how different things are even in the last 20, 30 years in terms of how boys and girls are socialized.
这是如此巨大的不同，我出生于 1975 年，所以让我感到震惊的是，即使在过去 20、30 年里，男孩和女孩的社交方式也有如此不同。
I remember the first television show coming out in the, I forget when it came out exactly, but "All in the Family," where the mother is going to work.
我记得第一部电视节目是在《全家福》上映的，我忘了具体是什么时候上映的，母亲要去那里工作。
This was like a revolutionary thing at the time, right?
这在当时是一件革命性的事情，对吗？
But it wasn't terribly long ago.
但那并不是很久以前的事了。
Okay, so let's talk about hormones shaping brain structure and function.
好吧，我们来谈谈塑造大脑结构和功能的激素。
What are some of the anatomical and/or functional differences in brains, let's say with a The most typical scenario.
大脑有哪些解剖和/或功能差异，让我们以最典型的情况为例。
XY chromosomes makes testosterone, makes DHT, all the receptors are functional, versus XX, no SRY gene, all the stuff, testosterone and estrogen, are functional, receptors are functional.
XY染色体产生睾酮，产生DHT，所有受体都有功能，而XX染色体没有SRY基因，所有的东西，睾酮和雌激素，都有功能，受体都有功能。
The typical pattern.
典型的模式。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How are the brains of those babies and later adults different?
这些婴儿和后来的成年人的大脑有何不同？
What do we know about that?
我们对此了解多少？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So there are a lot of cells in the brain that express receptors for testosterone, androgen receptor, and estrogen and progesterone.
因此，大脑中有很多细胞表达睾酮、雄激素受体、雌激素和孕激素受体。
So people have looked over the last 40, 50 years to see how these cells are responding to these hormones.
因此，人们在过去 40、50 年里一直在研究这些细胞如何对这些激素做出反应。
And it seems that at least one major theme that emerges is that early on, at least in the mouse, you can still see that the brain is bipotential at the first day of life.
似乎至少出现了一个主要主题，即在早期，至少在老鼠身上，你仍然可以看到大脑在生命的第一天就具有双电位。
It looks somewhat neutral.
看起来有些中性。
And then if you have testosterone, then in some brain regions, more neurons will survive.
如果你有睾丸激素，那么在某些大脑区域，更多的神经元将会存活下来。
And in those regions in the female, those neurons would die.
在女性的这些区域，这些神经元会死亡。
So then as adults, you end up with a male brain that has more neurons in one region compared to a female.
因此，作为成年人，最终男性大脑的某个区域比女性大脑有更多的神经元。
And conversely, in the female brain, there are structures that survive, in the males you lose cells.
相反，在女性大脑中，有一些结构可以存活，而在男性大脑中，细胞会丢失。
So in those structures in the adult, females will have more neurons than males, or cells than males.
因此，在成人的这些结构中，女性比男性拥有更多的神经元，或者比男性拥有更多的细胞。
So you have cell death that can be sex specific, female specific or male specific.
因此，细胞死亡可能是性别特异性、女性特异性或男性特异性。
Actually, I should step back.
事实上，我应该退后一步。
It's not specific.
这并不具体。
It's more statistical.
这更具统计性。
There are more cell death in one than the other, so you end up with different numbers of neurons in the adult animal.
其中一种的细胞死亡量比另一种要多，因此成年动物中最终会得到不同数量的神经元。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you're not getting those neurons back.
而且你无法恢复这些神经元。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
You're not getting those neurons back.
你无法恢复这些神经元。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's-
所以这是——
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
And the same is true for connectivity.
连接性也是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's fair to say that as a consequence of genes and hormones, in utero, males have certain neurons and circuits that females don't have, and females have certain neurons and circuits that males don't have, and it doesn't matter how much testosterone or estrogen you put into the adult of those people, they're not getting those circuits back.
因此可以公平地说，由于基因和激素的影响，在子宫内，男性拥有女性所没有的某些神经元和回路，女性也拥有男性所没有的某些神经元和回路，无论你在这些人的成年体内注入多少睾丸激素或雌激素，他们都无法恢复这些回路。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
In utero, they're the same, but once they've been exposed to testosterone or estrogen and progesterone, you get cell loss in one or the other sex.
在子宫内，它们是相同的，但是一旦它们暴露于睾酮或雌激素和黄体酮，您就会在一种或另一种性别中出现细胞损失。
And once you get that cell loss, you're not going to recover that as an adult.
一旦细胞丢失，成年后就无法恢复。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is there any evidence in humans or in mouse that the loss of these cells or the maintenance of these cells, we can look at it through either lens, is along a continuum, or is it pretty strict divide?
在人类或小鼠中是否有任何证据表明这些细胞的损失或这些细胞的维持，我们可以通过任一镜头来看待它，是沿着一个连续体，或者是相当严格的划分？
Like if we were to plot the number of cells in one of these brain areas, would it be a binary distribution, where you get a big pile of neurons on one side of the graph and many fewer in the female with a big trough between, or are we talking about a more single hump?
就像如果我们要绘制这些大脑区域之一的细胞数量一样，它会是一种二元分布吗？在图的一侧有一大堆神经元，而女性中的神经元则少得多，中间有一个大槽，或者我们正在谈论更多的单一驼峰？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
In some regions, it looks pretty binary.
在某些地区，它看起来相当二元。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
And these are regions that control innate behaviors, like mating or aggression, for example.
这些区域控制着先天行为，例如交配或攻击性。
But in others, there's going to be overlap.
但在其他方面，会有重叠。
And the animals we work in in the mouse, they're specifically bred to be genetically identical to each other, so we can really parse out what the differences look like.
我们在老鼠身上研究的动物，它们是经过专门培育的，在基因上彼此相同，所以我们可以真正解析出它们之间的差异。
And if you will, they are more extreme examples, these animals.
如果你愿意的话，它们是更极端的例子，这些动物。
And there, in some regions, we can really see that there's always about two to threefold more cells in one sex compared to the other.
在某些地区，我们确实可以看到，一种性别的细胞数量总是比另一种性别多出两到三倍。
And that's pretty much true for all animals for that region.
对于该地区的所有动物来说几乎都是如此。
But other regions, there might be more overlap.
但其他地区可能会有更多重叠。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。
AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens.
AG1 是一种维生素矿物质益生菌饮料，还包含益生元和适应原。
As somebody who's been involved in research science for almost three decades and in health and fitness for equally as long, I'm constantly looking for the best tools to improve my mental health, physical health, and performance.
作为一个从事科学研究近三十年以及同样长期从事健康和健身工作的人，我一直在寻找最好的工具来改善我的心理健康、身体健康和表现。
I discovered AG1 back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since.
我早在 2012 年就发现了 AG1，那时我还没有播客，从那时起我就每天都在服用它。
I find it improves all aspects of my health, my energy, my focus, and I simply feel much better when I take it.
我发现它改善了我的健康、精力、注意力的各个方面，而且服用它后我感觉好多了。
AG1 uses the highest quality ingredients in the right combinations, and they're constantly improving their formulas without increasing the cost.
AG1 使用最优质的成分进行正确的组合，并且在不增加成本的情况下不断改进其配方。
In fact, AG1 just launched their latest formula upgrade.
事实上，AG1刚刚推出了他们最新的配方升级。
This next gen formula is based on exciting new research on the effects of probiotics on the gut microbiome, and it now includes several clinically studied probiotic strains shown to support both digestive health and immune system health, as well as to improve bowel regularity and to reduce bloating.
这种下一代配方基于关于益生菌对肠道微生物组影响的令人兴奋的新研究，它现在包含几种经过临床研究的益生菌菌株，这些菌株显示出支持消化健康和免疫系统健康，以及改善肠道规律性和减少腹胀。
Whenever I'm asked if I could take just one supplement, what that supplement would be, I always say AG1.
每当我被问到是否可以只服用一种补充剂时，我总是说 AG1。
If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman。
For a limited time, AG1 is giving away a free one-month supply of omega-3 fish oil, along with a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2.
AG1 限时免费赠送一个月的 omega-3 鱼油，以及一瓶维生素 D3 加 K2。
As I've highlighted before on this podcast, omega-3 fish oil and vitamin D3 K2 have been shown to help with everything from mood and brain health, to heart health, to healthy hormone status, and much more.
正如我之前在此播客中强调的那样，omega-3 鱼油和维生素 D3 K2 已被证明对改善情绪和大脑健康、心脏健康、健康激素状态等各个方面都有帮助。
Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman to get a free one-month supply of omega-3 fish oil, plus a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2 with your subscription.
再次强调，您可以通过 Drinkag1.com/huberman 获得一个月的免费 omega-3 鱼油，以及一瓶维生素 D3 和 K2。
Today's episode is also brought to us by LMNT.
今天的节目也是LMNT给我们带来的。
LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't.
LMNT 是一种电解质饮料，拥有您需要的一切，没有您不需要的东西。
That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium in the correct amounts, but no sugar.
这意味着电解质、钠、镁和钾的含量正确，但不含糖。
Proper hydration is critical for optimal brain and body function.
适当的水合作用对于大脑和身体的最佳功能至关重要。
Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish cognitive and physical performance.
即使是轻微程度的脱水也会降低认知和身体表现。
It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes.
获得充足的电解质也很重要。
The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, are vital for functioning of all the cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells.
电解质（钠、镁和钾）对于体内所有细胞（尤其是神经元或神经细胞）的功能至关重要。
Drinking LMNT dissolved in water makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes.
饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT 可以很容易地确保您获得足够的水分和电解质。
To make sure that I'm getting proper amounts of hydration and electrolytes, I dissolve one packet of LMNT in about 16 to 32 ounces of water when I first wake up in the morning, and I drink that basically first thing in the morning.
为了确保我获得适量的水合作用和电解质，当我早上第一次醒来时，我将一包 LMNT 溶解在大约 16 至 32 盎司的水中，并且我基本上早上第一件事就是喝它。
I'll also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes.
我还会在进行任何体育锻炼时饮用溶解在水中的 LMNT，尤其是在炎热的日子里，当我大量出汗并失去水和电解质时。
LMNT has a bunch of great-tasting flavors.
LMNT 有很多美味的口味。
I love the raspberry, I love the citrus flavor.
我喜欢覆盆子，我喜欢柑橘味。
Right now, LMNT has a limited edition lemonade flavor that is absolutely delicious.
现在LMNT推出了限量版柠檬水口味，绝对美味。
I hate to say that I love one more than all the others, but this lemonade flavor is right up there with my favorite other one, which is raspberry or watermelon.
我不想说我比其他所有口味都更喜欢其中一种，但这种柠檬水口味与我最喜欢的另一种口味（覆盆子或西瓜）不相上下。
Again, I can't pick just one flavor.
再说一次，我不能只选择一种口味。
I love them all.
我爱他们所有人。
If you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman, spelled drinkLMNT.com/huberman, to claim a free LMNT sample pack with a purchase of any LMNT drink mix.
如果您想尝试 LMNT，可以访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman（拼写为 DrinkLMNT.com/huberman），购买任意 LMNT 混合饮料即可领取免费 LMNT 样品包。
Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.
再次强调，请访问 Drinklmnt.com/huberman 索取免费样品包。
To remove some of the sociological, political, and other sorts of biases that understandably get into people's minds when you start talking about this.
消除一些社会学、政治和其他类型的偏见，当你开始谈论这个问题时，这些偏见是可以理解地进入人们的头脑的。
If you just look back in history, were there examples of intersex people just born without any knowledge of chromosomes, without any knowledge of hormones?
如果你回顾一下历史，有没有双性人刚出生时对染色体、对激素一无所知的例子？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People intuitively understood hormones, but based on damage to the testes or things like that, right?
人们凭直觉理解荷尔蒙，但基于对睾丸的损害或类似的东西，对吗？
What would happen?
会发生什么？
But I think you get the idea.
但我想你明白了。
Were there examples or cultures where it was kind of understood that this was along a continuum?
是否有一些例子或文化可以让人们理解这是一个连续体？
Because everything you're describing makes it sound pretty darn binary.
因为你所描述的一切听起来都很二元。
And again, this isn't a political discussion, it's a biological discussion.
再说一遍，这不是政治讨论，而是生物学讨论。
SRY, yes or no?
SRY，是还是不是？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That seems to be pretty much what it's about.
这似乎就是它的意思。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yeah.
是的。
But there are cultures, we mentioned about these consanguineous marriages where people would have kids, where they would look feminized early on because they have a deficiency in the 5-alpha reductase, no DHT production, and then at 12, they would become masculinized.
但在某些文化中，我们提到过近亲结婚，人们会生孩子，他们很早就看起来女性化，因为他们缺乏 5-α 还原酶，不产生 DHT，然后在 12 岁时，他们就会变得男性化。
They would sprout a penis.
他们会长出阴茎。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But never in the other direction.
但绝不是在另一个方向。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Males converting to females.
男性转变为女性。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Physically, no, right.
从身体上来说，不，对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
So at least in these cultures, it's a known thing that there will be a subset of kids who are born with this intersex condition.
因此，至少在这些文化中，众所周知，会有一部分孩子天生患有这种双性人病症。
Right.
正确的。
And there are descriptions of what people used to call, it's no longer politically correct to call them hermaphrodites, but there are examples of intersex individuals across history.
还有人们过去所说的描述，称他们为雌雄同体在政治上不再正确，但历史上有双性人的例子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hermaphrodite is not a politically correct-
雌雄同体不是政治正确的人
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's what I've been told.
这就是我被告知的。
Intersex is the medically accepted term.
双性人是医学上公认的术语。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it.
明白了。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
And people have also known that testosterone or sex hormones play a huge role in regulating behavior, right?
人们也知道睾丸激素或性激素在调节行为方面发挥着巨大作用，对吗？
So eunuchs and castrates, castrati, have been used in palaces and courts to guard harems, for example.
例如，太监和阉人被用来在宫殿和宫廷中看守后宫。
But also-
但也——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That was the motivation?
这就是动机？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wouldn't you favor a more aggressive, testicularly intact male if the goal is protection?
如果目标是保护，你会不会更喜欢更具攻击性、睾丸完整的雄性？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
I think the idea was that if you had a castrate guarding a harem of females, then they can't have sexual behavior with them.
我认为这个想法是，如果你有一个阉割者看守一个女性后宫，那么他们就不能与她们发生性行为。
They can't have sex with them.
他们不能与他们发生性关系。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, they weren't going to do what the cuttlefish do.
哦，他们不会做墨鱼做的事。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Cuttlefish males will pretend they're female-
雄性墨鱼会假装自己是雌性——
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right
没错
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
befriend females, and then they'll mate with them.
与雌性交朋友，然后它们会与雌性交配。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
And also in opera singing, right, you would have castrati who would have a higher-pitched voice.
而且在歌剧演唱中，对吧，你会有音调更高的阉人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they were castrated early in life to maintain the high-pitched voice.
为了保持高亢的嗓音，他们在很小的时候就被阉割了。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Anyway, just going to refrain from any-- The poor kids that presumably didn't get a choice.
不管怎样，只是要避免任何——那些可能没有选择的可怜的孩子。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Presumably, yeah.
大概是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yikes.
哎呀。
Okay.
好的。
So here's where I'm stuck.
所以这就是我被困住的地方。
All right?
好的？
I can hear all this biology, and it's very clear that the genes and hormones are affecting peripheral, what we call phenotype.
我可以听到所有这些生物学信息，很明显，基因和激素正在影响外周，即我们所说的表型。
Presence or absence of penis, presence or absence of descended testes, presence or absence of menstruation.
有无阴茎、有无睾丸下降、有无月经。
But in the brain, it just seems that there are different circuits that pile up more neurons or maintain more neurons in males versus females.
但在大脑中，男性与女性的大脑中似乎存在不同的回路来堆积更多的神经元或维持更多的神经元。
In females, what are the circuits that get favored?
在女性中，哪些回路受到青睐？
Are they circuits for lactation, for child-rearing?
它们是用于哺乳、育儿的回路吗？
I mean, what-
我的意思是，什么-
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
For sexual behavior, for example.
例如，对于性行为。
Ovulation.
排卵。
So cells that control ovulation, for example, would be very dimorphic.
例如，控制排卵的细胞具有很强的二态性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But not in terms of behavior, right?
但在行为方面却不是这样，对吧？
It seems like it's the presence or absence of rough-and-tumble play, presence or absence of thrusting behavior.
看起来像是有或没有打闹游戏，有或没有推力行为。
Maybe this is for historical reasons, or maybe it's for biological reasons, but I guess what I'm getting at here is, what are the things that babies that are XX, that are females, how are their brains specialized?
也许这是出于历史原因，或者也许是出于生物学原因，但我想我在这里得到的是，XX婴儿、女性婴儿的大脑有哪些特点？
Or is it just the absence of copulatory thrusting and aggressive behavior?
或者只是没有交配冲击和攻击行为？
It seems to me that there would be circuits that were female specific.
在我看来，会有女性特有的电路。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
So there are circuits that are specific of female sexual behavior.
因此，存在女性性行为特有的回路。
So you can take an adult male, for example, and you can remove testosterone, you can castrate him, and you can give him female hormones, estrogen and progesterone, and ask, this is in mice now, you can ask, will he now be sexually receptive?
所以你可以拿一个成年男性来举例，你可以去掉睾酮，你可以阉割他，你可以给他雌性激素，雌激素和黄体酮，然后问，现在这是在老鼠身上，你可以问，他现在有性接受能力吗？
Will he lordose like a female mouse would?
他会像母老鼠那样驼背吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Arched back, sexual-
弓背，性感——
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Arched back.
向后拱起。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Sexual receptivity posture, and in most cases, he won't.
性接受姿势，在大多数情况下，他不会。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He won't?
他不会吗？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
No, he won't, because the circuit's missing.
不，他不会，因为电路丢失了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
The neurons just aren't there.
神经元根本不存在。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
Or at least they're not responsive to the hormones.
或者至少他们对荷尔蒙没有反应。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right?
对吗？
We don't know if the circuit's there, but it's not responding to hormones, or we don't know if the circuit's not there.
我们不知道回路是否存在，但它对激素没有反应，或者我们不知道回路是否不存在。
We now know that there are connections in the female brain that are simply missing in the male brain, and these connections are from neurons that regulate sexual behavior.
我们现在知道，女性大脑中存在男性大脑中缺失的连接，而这些连接来自调节性行为的神经元。
So we know that some circuits are missing in the male brain for female sexual behavior.
所以我们知道男性大脑中缺少一些与女性性行为有关的回路。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So lordosis behavior in females seems to be a very XX chromosomal-driven outcome.
因此，女性的脊柱前凸行为似乎是 XX 染色体驱动的结果。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
But it's not as black and white like that.
但事情并不是那么黑白分明。
There are circuits that seem to be conserved in both sexes for the behavior of the opposite sex.
对于异性的行为，两性似乎都有保守的回路。
And I'll give you two examples of that.
我将举两个例子。
Okay.
好的。
If you take an adult female mouse, and this is an experiment done in the '70s by David Edwards and Kathryn Bergy.
如果你拿一只成年雌性老鼠，这是 David Edwards 和 Kathryn Bergy 在 70 年代所做的实验。
It's a really beautiful experiment, and it came around because he was doing a control experiment.
这是一个非常美妙的实验，它的出现是因为他正在做一个对照实验。
He was simply giving testosterone to adult females, adult female mice.
他只是给成年雌性、成年雌性小鼠注射睾酮。
And the idea was to sort of see if he got the same results as Charles Phoenix did with guinea pigs.
这个想法是想看看他是否能得到与查尔斯·菲尼克斯用豚鼠做的结果相同的结果。
So he gave testosterone to young females at birth, as well as to adult females, and the adult females were controls.
因此，他在年轻雌性出生时和成年雌性身上都注射了睾酮，并以成年雌性为对照组。
The idea was, will these females mount like males if they've seen testosterone early on?
这个想法是，如果这些雌性很早就看到了睾丸激素，它们会像雄性一样上体吗？
The surprising result that he got was that adult females given testosterone mounted like males.
他得到的令人惊讶的结果是，给予睾丸激素的成年女性可以像男性一样骑上马。
So they have the circuit for male sexual behavior, but it's not activated because there's no testosterone.
所以他们有男性性行为的回路，但由于没有睾丸激素，它没有被激活。
Similarly, if you take, and this is work by Catherine Dulac at Harvard, if you take mice And you sort of remove pheromone sensing from them.
同样，如果你拿老鼠，这是哈佛大学凯瑟琳·杜拉克（Catherine Dulac）的工作，如果你拿老鼠，你就消除了它们的信息素感应。
Pheromones are these chemical cues that animals use to sort of recognize sex and social status of other individuals of their species.
信息素是动物用来识别其物种中其他个体的性别和社会地位的化学线索。
If you sort of disable pheromone sensing in mice, females will now show male-type sexual behavior.
如果你禁用老鼠的信息素感应，雌性现在将表现出雄性类型的性行为。
It's as if that pheromonal input is inhibiting male sexual behavior.
就好像信息素的输入正在抑制男性的性行为。
But if you take away the pheromone-sensing capacity, then the females will start mounting like males.
但如果你拿掉信息素感应能力，那么雌性就会像雄性一样开始爬上身。
So you have at least two sort of control mechanisms, if you will, to inhibit adult male sexual behavior in adult female mice.
因此，如果你愿意的话，你至少有两种控制机制来抑制成年雄性小鼠的性行为。
One is the absence of testosterone, or very low levels of testosterone, and the other is the sort of pheromonal input, this chemosensory olfactory input that is inhibiting male sexual behavior.
一个是缺乏睾酮，或者睾酮水平非常低，另一个是信息素输入，这种化学感应嗅觉输入抑制男性性行为。
You take either one of those, you give testosterone or you take away the inhibition from those pheromones, you get male sexual behavior.
你服用其中任何一种，给予睾酮，或者取消这些信息素的抑制，你就会出现男性性行为。
So it seemed that parts of the circuit for male sexual behavior to display the behavior are there in the adult female brain.
因此，男性性行为的部分回路似乎存在于成年女性的大脑中。
So in some cases, the circuit seems to be missing, like the female sexual behavior circuit, because you can give an adult male estrogen and progesterone to mimic estrus or heat, and he doesn't lure those.
因此，在某些情况下，该回路似乎缺失，例如女性性行为回路，因为您可以给成年男性提供雌激素和黄体酮来模仿发情或发情，而他不会引诱这些。
But you can take an adult female and give her testosterone, and she'll show sexual behavior like a male.
但你可以给成年女性注射睾丸激素，她就会表现出像男性一样的性行为。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And because it's probably in the back of people's minds and because I'm very familiar with this literature, we should just point out that all data point to the fact that you don't see marked differences in androgens or estrogen if you were to look between women who define themselves as heterosexual versus homosexual, so heterosexual women versus lesbians, or heterosexual men versus homosexual men.
因为它可能存在于人们的脑海中，而且因为我对这些文献非常熟悉，所以我们应该指出，所有数据都表明这样一个事实：如果你观察那些将自己定义为异性恋与同性恋的女性，异性恋女性与女同性恋，或异性恋男性与同性恋男性，你不会发现雄激素或雌激素存在显着差异。
If anything, the data point to homosexual men having higher levels of testosterone.
如果说有什么不同的话，那就是数据表明同性恋男性的睾丸激素水平较高。
It's been difficult to tease apart from some lifestyle and behavioral things, but when teased apart, and it's been done, you're not going to find anything that screams hormone levels define sexual orientation.
很难将某些生活方式和行为问题区分开来，但当分开后，你将不会发现任何激素水平决定性取向的东西。
You just don't find that.
只是你没有发现而已。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
You don't see that, no.
你没有看到这一点，不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You see a lot of data that points to changes in utero that may be hormone-driven, but nothing-
你看到很多数据表明子宫内的变化可能是由激素驱动的，但没有什么——
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
As adults
作为成年人
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
nothing as adults.
作为成年人什么也没有。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
No. And in fact, if you can take what we call wild-type male mice, if you will, right?
不。事实上，如果你能接受我们所说的野生型雄性小鼠，如果你愿意的话，对吗？
Meaning they're sort of completely typical or normal male mice, and you can measure their testosterone levels, and you get a huge range of circulating testosterone in otherwise normal mice of a five to tenfold difference in testosterone.
这意味着它们是完全典型或正常的雄性小鼠，您可以测量它们的睾酮水平，并且在其他正常小鼠中您会得到很大范围的循环睾酮，睾酮差异为五到十倍。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or humans, for that matter.
或者人类，就此而言。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Or humans, for that matter.
或者人类，就此而言。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
And these mice will still behave like males.
这些老鼠的行为仍然像雄性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I won't out this person, but I'm not talking about sexual orientation.
我不会排除这个人，但我不是在谈论性取向。
The CEO of one of the most successful media companies in the world came up to me at a gathering two years ago, and he said, "Listen, I have a problem." So usually when a guy says that to me, it's going to be something about testosterone or sexual dysfunction or something.
两年前，世界上最成功的媒体公司之一的首席执行官在一次聚会上找到我，他说：“听着，我有一个问题。”所以通常当一个人对我这么说时，他会谈论睾丸激素或性功能障碍之类的事情。
And he said his testosterone is down in the 300s, kind of lower end of reference range.
他说他的睾丸激素下降了 300 多岁，有点参考范围的下限。
He said, "But I feel great." He's saying, "My libido is great.
他说：“但我感觉很棒。”他说：“我的性欲很强。
My work drive is great.
我的工作动力很棒。
I feel great." And I said, "Well, your free testosterone is probably normal and high." And he goes, "No, that's also low, but I feel great.
我感觉很棒。”我说：“嗯，你的游离睾酮可能是正常的，而且很高。”他说：“不，这也很低，但我感觉很好。
Should I take testosterone?" And I said, "Listen, I'm not an endocrinologist, but my advice would be no." Right?
我应该服用睾酮吗？”我说：“听着，我不是内分泌学家，但我的建议是否定的。”正确的？
So, and I point this out, I think he's probably in his late 50s, early 60s, and what he was revealing was unique among the questions I typically get around testosterone.
所以，我指出这一点，我认为他可能 50 岁末、60 岁出头，他所揭示的内容在我通常提出的有关睾丸激素的问题中是独一无二的。
But I think it points to the fact that who knows, maybe he has a higher than normal receptor density-
但我认为这表明了一个事实，谁知道呢，也许他的受体密度比正常人要高——
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right
没错
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that can make use of those levels of testosterone.
可以利用这些水平的睾酮。
There's so many ways in which hormone levels can play out in one direction or another or something in between.
激素水平可以通过多种方式向一个方向或另一个方向或介于两者之间的方向发挥作用。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think it's worth people knowing that.
我认为值得人们了解这一点。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
I have so many questions, but this feels like thorny territory, and I've learned when doing this podcast, whenever something feels like thorny territory, to go right into it.
我有很多问题，但这感觉就像是一个棘手的领域，我在做这个播客时学会了，每当有什么感觉像棘手的领域时，就直接进入它。
These days, we hear a lot, endlessly it seems, about the debate as to whether or not sex differentiation and gender are biologically determined or are more mutable than that.
如今，我们似乎没完没了地听到很多关于性别差异和性别是由生物学决定的还是比这更易变的争论。
We're certainly not going to resolve that question here, certainly not for everybody.
我们当然不会在这里解决这个问题，当然不会为每个人解决。
I'm sure you have your stance and I have mine.
我确信你有你的立场，我也有我的立场。
But how is it that we bring together our understanding of sex differentiation versus this gender word, right?
但是我们如何将我们对性别差异的理解与这个性别词结合起来，对吧？
It seems to me that in a lot of talks you've given, you use the word gender.
在我看来，你在很多演讲中都使用了性别这个词。
I know because I've listened to those talks, and I'll reveal it now.
我知道，因为我已经听过这些谈话，现在我将透露这一点。
We've been friends for a long time.
我们已经是很长时间的朋友了。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you'll sometimes say sex, and you'll sometimes say gender.
有时你会说性别，有时你会说性别。
And I understand that sex is a confusing word because the moment they hear it, they think of the verb sex.
我知道性是一个令人困惑的词，因为他们一听到它，就会想到动词性。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How do we think about sex versus gender when it comes to understanding brain and, yeah, just brain.
当谈到理解大脑时，我们如何看待性与性别，是的，只是大脑。
Let's just stay with that, not even body, because clearly the data in mice and humans point to the fact that the administration of hormones can change the body.
让我们坚持这一点，甚至不包括身体，因为小鼠和人类的数据清楚地表明，施用激素可以改变身体。
It can shift things in one direction or the other.
它可以使事物向一个方向或另一个方向转变。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Given at the right time.
在正确的时间给予。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Given at the right time, and we can talk about that.
在正确的时间给出，我们可以讨论这一点。
But what about the brain piece?
但是大脑碎片呢？
How mutable is this, and what are your thoughts on the controversy, and how should we be thinking about this?
这是多么多变的事情，你对这场争议有什么看法，我们应该如何思考这个问题？
Forgive me for stumbling, but it's not that I'm trying to avoid upsetting anyone, it's like we don't have a good language to differentiate these things.
请原谅我的绊脚石，但这并不是我试图避免让任何人感到不安，而是我们没有一种好的语言来区分这些事情。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
And I think part of the issue, part of the problem for not having a good language and good understanding is we don't have an animal model for it.
我认为问题的一部分，没有良好的语言和良好的理解的部分问题是我们没有相应的动物模型。
Gender is such a human-specific construct, as these sort of constellation of behaviors and expectations generated from within and by our society and culture about what gender is And gender sort of includes not only identification of yourself as a male or a female or something in between, having sort of attraction for one sex or the other, or not having any attraction for anybody, or having this sort of comportment of behaviors, like dressing in a particular way, sort of speaking in a particular way, or meeting societal expectations.
性别是人类特有的构造，因为我们的社会和文化内部和文化中产生了一系列关于什么是性别的行为和期望。性别不仅包括将自己视为男性或女性或介于两者之间的身份，对一种性别或另一种性别有某种吸引力，或对任何人没有任何吸引力，或有这种行为举止，例如以特定方式着装，以特定方式说话，或满足社会期望。
All of those sort of comprise gender, and it's hard to do that in the mouse.
所有这些都包含性别，而在老鼠身上很难做到这一点。
We don't know enough about mice.
我们对老鼠了解还不够。
We don't even know about mice enough to say they have a gender.
我们对老鼠的了解还不足以说它们有性别。
We know that they have sexes, females and males, based on SRY, testosterone, estrogen, and progesterone.
我们知道它们有性别，女性和男性，基于 SRY、睾酮、雌激素和黄体酮。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Well-
嗯-
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
So it's hard to have an animal model for something like this, which is so complex and so, it seems, human-specific.
因此，很难为这样的事情建立一个动物模型，因为它是如此复杂，而且似乎是人类特有的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, you said one thing that at least my understanding checks off one box, which is that sexual orientation and how people self-identify in terms of maleness or femaleness is separable.
好吧，你说了一件事，至少我的理解勾选了一个框，那就是性取向和人们如何自我认同男性或女性是分开的。
We know that because there are people who are homosexual.
我们知道这一点，因为有人是同性恋。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we know that because there are people who switch gender by way of hormones, obviously not from birth, but later in life.
我们知道这一点，因为有些人通过激素改变性别，显然不是从出生开始，而是在以后的生活中。
And in many cases, they don't change sexual orientation.
在许多情况下，他们不会改变性取向。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sometimes they do, but my read of the data is that usually they don't.
有时他们会这样做，但我读到的数据显示通常不会。
In other words, if somebody preferred females before, they might administer hormones, change their body, but they'll continue to like females.
换句话说，如果有人以前喜欢女性，他们可能会服用激素，改变自己的身体，但他们会继续喜欢女性。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or vice versa, right?
或者反之亦然，对吧？
That's my understanding of the data.
这就是我对数据的理解。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I went into the data looking prior to this conversation, and there are a lot of data now.
在这次谈话之前我查看了数据，现在有很多数据。
The problem is it's difficult to find unbiased data.
问题是很难找到公正的数据。
I'll be very honest.
我会很诚实的。
I feel like the data are biased on both sides.
我感觉双方的数据都有偏差。
People seem to be arguing for something going in.
人们似乎在争论要发生什么事情。
Okay, so sexual orientation and how people self-identify, we know is separable.
好吧，我们知道性取向和人们的自我认同是分开的。
That's not a controversial thing.
这不是什么有争议的事情。
We just know because that's what happens.
我们只是知道，因为那就是发生的事情。
But when it comes to when people are administered hormones, how that changes the brain in human, what do we know?
但是当人们服用激素时，这会如何改变人类的大脑，我们知道什么？
You said it depends on whether or not they're administered hormones early versus later in life.
你说这取决于他们是否在生命早期和晚期服用激素。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Well, I think the early data, and we talked about congenital adrenal hyperplasia, we talked about androgen insensitivity syndrome, those data really say that hormones at a point in development, maybe in utero, have a profound effect on masculinization or feminization external as well as of the brain.
嗯，我认为早期的数据，我们谈到了先天性肾上腺增生，我们谈到了雄激素不敏感综合症，这些数据确实表明，激素在发育的某个阶段，也许在子宫内，对外部以及大脑的男性化或女性化有着深远的影响。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
These kids that don't make DHT, that are raised as girls, but later sprout a penis, are, at least as you described it, for all the world, raised as girls and happy being raised as girls-
这些不产生双氢睾酮的孩子，作为女孩长大，但后来长出了阴茎，至少正如你所描述的那样，对于全世界来说，作为女孩长大，并且很高兴作为女孩长大-
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
identify as girls until testosterone kicks in.
在睾丸激素发挥作用之前，人们会认为自己是女孩。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it's interesting, right?
但这很有趣，对吧？
Because their body changes, so it's unclear to what extent the bodily changes are driving the psychological changes.
因为他们的身体发生了变化，所以目前还不清楚身体变化在多大程度上推动了心理变化。
But presumably, if the brain is organized male, because they're XY and they have the SRY gene-
但据推测，如果大脑是男性组织的，因为他们是 XY 并且他们有 SRY 基因 -
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
And they have testosterone
而且他们有睾丸激素
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and they have testosterone, there's a substrate for it.
他们有睾丸激素，有它的底物。
It's waiting for that testosterone.
它正在等待睾丸激素。
There's something for it to act on.
它有一些可以采取行动的东西。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
And similarly, if you're insensitive to testosterone, if you have androgen insensitivity syndrome, then you've not seen testosterone biologically.
同样，如果您对睾酮不敏感，如果您患有雄激素不敏感综合症，那么您在生物学上就没有看到睾酮。
It's present in the circulation, but your brain, for example, can't respond to it.
它存在于循环中，但您的大脑无法对其做出反应。
So you're feminized externally, and you are also behaving as a female all the way through adult life.
所以你的外表已经女性化了，而且你在整个成年生活中也一直表现得像女性。
So that's the early action of testosterone, right?
这就是睾丸激素的早期作用，对吗？
So I think what you're referring to is people deciding to take hormones at a later point in life, after birth, much later after birth, to switch genders.
所以我认为你指的是人们决定在生命的后期、出生后、出生后很晚的时候服用激素来改变性别。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
And maybe the starting place to really understand this is when people take hormones, but don't want to switch genders.
也许真正理解这一点的起点是当人们服用激素但不想改变性别时。
So these days, it's very more common now, for men typically, but women also, but let's just say men taking testosterone or augmenting testosterone, or for women to augment estrogen.
所以现在，这种情况已经很常见了，通常对男性来说，但对女性来说也是如此，但我们就说男性服用睾酮或增加睾酮，或者女性增加雌激素。
This is now because of the increasing attention on menopause and perimenopause and the Women's Health Initiative and trials that looked at this, it's very clear that there are some advantages to estrogen therapy in women who identify as women.
这是因为现在人们对更年期和围绝经期的关注越来越多，并且妇女健康倡议和研究对此进行了试验，很明显，雌激素治疗对于女性来说有一些优势。
I'm just trying to simplify this as much as possible.
我只是想尽可能地简化它。
Our colleague, Robert Sapolsky, who knows a lot about testosterone, has written books about it, said when somebody increases their testosterone pharmacologically, it just makes them more the way they are.
我们的同事罗伯特·萨波尔斯基（Robert Sapolsky）对睾丸激素了解很多，他写过相关书籍，他说，当一个人通过药物增加睾丸激素时，只会让他们变得更健康。
If they're an aggressive jerk, it makes them more an aggressive jerk.
如果他们是一个好斗的混蛋，那么他们就会变得更加好斗的混蛋。
If they're altruistic, it makes them more altruistic.
如果他们是无私的，那么他们就会变得更加无私。
But it's really about hierarchy.
但这确实与等级制度有关。
It's really about a willingness to lean into effort, to suppress amygdala activation, and to lean into effort within the domains where they feel a lot of agency.
这实际上是关于愿意投入努力，抑制杏仁核激活，并在他们感到有很多代理作用的领域内投入努力。
That's kind of what he describes as the main effect of testosterone.
这就是他所说的睾酮的主要作用。
It's a little unclear what the main effect of estrogen is when given to a woman in adulthood, besides the ones that have been described, like preservation of cognitive function-
除了已经描述过的作用（例如保持认知功能）之外，还不清楚雌激素对成年女性的主要作用是什么 -
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
skin texture, vaginal lubrication, a bunch of things that are youthful restoration-type phenotypes.
皮肤纹理，阴道润滑，一堆东西都是年轻恢复型的表型。
I don't think there are a lot of data about the psychological changes, but they seem to be in the direction of feeling better, because there are a lot of women now who are seeking estrogen replacement therapy.
我认为关于心理变化的数据并不多，但它们似乎朝着感觉更好的方向发展，因为现在有很多女性正在寻求雌激素替代疗法。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
With menopause, there's a sharp increase in the incidence of Alzheimer's disease in women, right?
随着更年期，女性阿尔茨海默病的发病率急剧增加，对吗？
So, as you pointed out, taking estrogen after menopause, if it's medically fine, once you've consulted your doctor, then that will at least prevent the decline in cognition because you now have estrogen on board.
因此，正如您所指出的，绝经后服用雌激素，如果医学上没有问题，一旦您咨询过医生，那么这至少可以防止认知能力下降，因为您现在已经有了雌激素。
So that's the thinking behind hormone replacement therapies for cognition at least.
这至少是认知激素替代疗法背后的想法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Coming back to the testosterone thing that you mentioned from Robert Sapolsky, we did a similar experiment in the mouse where we just mutated the androgen receptor only in the brain.
回到你从罗伯特·萨波尔斯基那里提到的睾酮问题，我们在小鼠身上做了一个类似的实验，我们只是突变了大脑中的雄激素受体。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
And this is going to get complicated, I think.
我认为这会变得复杂。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, it's a cool experiment.
不，这是一个很酷的实验。
So, penis can respond to testosterone, muscle can respond to testosterone, connective tissue can respond to testosterone, brain can't respond.
所以，阴茎可以对睾酮做出反应，肌肉可以对睾酮做出反应，结缔组织可以对睾酮做出反应，而大脑则不能做出反应。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
It's going to get-
它将得到——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you did that from birth in these mice?
你从出生起就在这些老鼠身上做到了这一点吗？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yes.
是的。
It's going to get interesting because we have to talk about aromatization now.
这会变得很有趣，因为我们现在必须谈论芳香化。
So these males are still masculinized.
所以这些男性仍然男性化。
They just mate and fight less than normal males would.
它们只是比正常雄性更少交配和打斗。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
So their brains are a little, again, there's a dearth of language here, but these mice that don't have testosterone acting on their brain are a little less stereotypically male mouse.
因此，它们的大脑有点缺乏语言，但这些没有睾酮作用于大脑的小鼠是不太典型的雄性小鼠。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They fight, but they don't like to fight as much.
他们会打架，但他们不太喜欢打架。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
They mark territory, but not so much.
它们标记领地，但标记得不多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Someone's in the comments already saying, "Beta male." Right.
评论里已经有人说“Beta 男”。正确的。
That's the kind of YouTube speak.
YouTube 就是这样说话的。
YouTube, by the way, because it's male-dominated in terms of its audience, if you look at the comments on YouTube, not just for this podcast, but other podcasts, it's a rich data set for how males compete when anonymous and when physical strength is not involved.
顺便说一句，YouTube 的观众群体以男性为主，如果你看看 YouTube 上的评论，不仅是这个播客，还有其他播客，你会发现这是一个丰富的数据集，展示了男性在匿名且不涉及体力的情况下如何竞争。
Very interesting.
非常有趣。
Lot of hierarchies-
很多层次结构-
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Sure
当然可以
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in comment sections that are removed from the stereotypical kind of notions of how hierarchies were played out, because aggression is-
在评论部分中，这些内容脱离了等级制度如何发挥的陈规定型观念，因为侵略是-
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's all words.
都是言语。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
And memes.
还有模因。
Well, you mentioned aromatization, so we should tell people what aromatization is.
嗯，你提到了芳构化，所以我们应该告诉人们芳构化是什么。
This always throws people for a loop when you tell men that they're very male-like because of estrogen.
当你告诉男人他们因为雌激素而非常像男性时，这总是会让人们感到困惑。
Freaks them out.
把他们吓坏了。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, go ahead, freak them out.
好吧，继续吧，吓唬他们。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
So this all started with classic work by Frank Naftolin in the '70s, when he was sort of working on human embryonic tissue, brain tissue, and he realized that the embryonic human brain contained an enzyme that converted androgen into estrogen, and the enzyme's called aromatase.
这一切都始于弗兰克·纳夫托林 (Frank Naftolin) 在 70 年代的经典工作，当时他正在研究人类胚胎组织、脑组织，他意识到人类胚胎大脑中含有一种酶，可以将雄激素转化为雌激素，这种酶称为芳香酶。
And this is in fact the primary way that the ovaries make estrogen.
事实上，这是卵巢产生雌激素的主要方式。
They first make testosterone, then gets aromatized by this enzyme, aromatase, and gets made into estrogen.
它们首先产生睾酮，然后被芳香酶芳香化，并制成雌激素。
Okay, so it turns out that Naftolin's sort of discovery is exactly right.
好吧，事实证明纳夫托林的发现是完全正确的。
Even in the mouse male brain, we and others have shown that there is aromatase, the enzyme expressed in very specific circuits in the brain.
我们和其他人已经证明，即使在雄性小鼠的大脑中也存在芳香酶，这种酶在大脑中非常特定的回路中表达。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can I just stop you?
我可以阻止你吗？
You mentioned this early experiment by this gentleman.
您提到了这位先生的早期实验。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Was done on human brain tissue?
是在人脑组织上进行的吗？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yes, and rats and others.
是的，还有老鼠和其他动物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
It's a very important point.
这是非常重要的一点。
I think she will appreciate hearing this, but a long while ago, I mentioned this thing about aromatization-
我想她会很高兴听到这个，但是很久以前，我提到过关于芳香化的事情——
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of testosterone to estrogen is really what masculinizes the male brain.
睾酮向雌激素的转变确实使男性大脑男性化。
And a very prominent author in the testosterone space, a female author, wrote to me and said, "It's just mice." But she's very scholarly, and I think she'll appreciate hearing that the original data come from human.
睾丸激素领域的一位非常著名的作家，一位女作家，写信给我说：“这只是老鼠。”但她非常有学问，我想她会很高兴听到原始数据来自人类。
Great.
伟大的。
Thank you.
谢谢。
So it's not just mice.
所以这不仅仅是老鼠。
Yet another way that we're conserved.
我们还有另一种保守的方式。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
To be fair, though, I think the idea with what she might have been referring to is that aromatization in the human brain may not be playing as dominant a role in masculinizing the brain as it does in rodents and other animals.
不过，公平地说，我认为她可能提到的想法是，人类大脑中的芳香化可能不像啮齿动物和其他动物那样在大脑男性化方面发挥着主导作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
So that, we can't really speak to that because you can't do those experiments in humans.
所以，我们不能真正谈论这个，因为你不能在人类身上进行这些实验。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
But if you have a male mouse lacking aromatase, so he can't make estrogen, then his behaviors won't be masculinized.
但如果你有一只雄性老鼠缺乏芳香酶，所以它不能产生雌激素，那么它的行为就不会男性化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He appears more female.
他看起来更女性化。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Not appears, behaves more like a female.
没有出现，表现得更像女性。
Doesn't behave like a male, because he's not converting testosterone into estrogen.
行为不像男性，因为他没有将睾酮转化为雌激素。
And this happens very early, at birth in mice.
这种情况发生得很早，在小鼠出生时。
So testosterone gets made by the testes, gets in the brain, gets converted into estrogen, and then, as we talked about earlier, there are some cells that die or survive, depending on the sex.
因此，睾丸激素由睾丸产生，进入大脑，转化为雌激素，然后，正如我们之前谈到的，有些细胞会死亡或存活，具体取决于性别。
And this conversion of testosterone into estrogen enables specific sets of cells in the male brain to survive.
睾酮向雌激素的转化使男性大脑中的特定细胞组得以生存。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is probably a good place for us to inform people that these steroid hormones, testosterone and estrogen, are very interesting because they can have immediate effects, and they can also change gene expression.
这可能是我们告诉人们这些类固醇激素、睾酮和雌激素非常有趣的好地方，因为它们可以产生立竿见影的效果，而且还可以改变基因表达。
This is a good opportunity for you to teach us some cell biology.
这是您教我们一些细胞生物学的好机会。
So, is it by virtue of the fact that they are lipid soluble, they can go all the way into the nucleus of a cell?
那么，是不是因为它们是脂溶性的，所以它们可以一直进入细胞核呢？
This is very different than dopamine, right?
这与多巴胺非常不同，对吗？
Dopamine can impact cells.
多巴胺可以影响细胞。
Don't do this, folks, but if you were to take methamphetamine or something, your brain would go very dopaminergic very fast.
伙计们，不要这样做，但是如果你服用甲基苯丙胺或其他东西，你的大脑会很快变得非常多巴胺能。
But it's not going to change gene expression in the short term.
但短期内它不会改变基因表达。
Maybe in the long term, but not in the short term.
也许从长远来看，但短期内不行。
But testosterone administration or estrogen administration is literally changing the genes that are expressed-
但睾丸激素或雌激素的施用实际上正在改变所表达的基因——
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right
没错
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the cells they interact with.
在它们相互作用的细胞中。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How does that work?
这是如何运作的？
What's going on?
这是怎么回事？
What are they actually controlling?
他们实际上控制着什么？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
So the receptors for these hormones, testosterone, estrogen, and progesterone, they sit in the cytoplasm of cells, not in the nucleus.
因此，这些激素（睾酮、雌激素和黄体酮）的受体位于细胞的细胞质中，而不是细胞核中。
And as you pointed out, these are steroid hormones or lipids.
正如您所指出的，这些是类固醇激素或脂质。
They can cross cell boundaries, cell membranes.
它们可以跨越细胞边界、细胞膜。
And once they bind to the receptor, the receptor bound to the hormone is translocated into the nucleus, where it finds stretches of DNA that it recognizes, and sort of sits on them, binds them, and then changes or regulates gene expression of what we call target genes.
一旦它们与受体结合，与激素结合的受体就会转移到细胞核中，在那里它找到它识别的 DNA 片段，然后坐在它们上面，结合它们，然后改变或调节我们所谓的目标基因的基因表达。
And that's how you get gene expression changes by these hormones.
这就是这些激素改变基因表达的方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So this is why whenever I hear the Sapolsky argument, which I totally agree with, that you give someone testosterone, and they become a lot more like themselves.
所以这就是为什么每当我听到萨波尔斯基的论点时，我完全同意，你给某人睾丸激素，他们就会变得更像自己。
If they're a nice person, they become that much nicer.
如果他们是一个好人，他们就会变得更好。
If they're aggressive, they become that much more aggressive.
如果他们具有攻击性，他们就会变得更加具有攻击性。
But those are short-term studies.
但这些都是短期研究。
Right?
正确的？
So we don't really know how the administration of hormones, testosterone or estrogen, to a self-declared male or female or XY, XX, doesn't matter.
所以我们真的不知道激素、睾丸激素或雌激素的管理对于一个自称为男性或女性或 XY、XX 的人来说是无关紧要的。
The point is that we don't know how the long-term administration of these hormones literally change the genes and therefore the thought patterns and behaviors and feelings of these people.
关键是我们不知道长期服用这些激素如何真正改变基因，从而改变这些人的思维模式、行为和感受。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
You're basically changing the molecular fingerprints.
你基本上是在改变分子指纹。
Of specific sets of cells in the brain with hormone action.
大脑中具有激素作用的特定细胞组。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A big debate these days is whether or not people, if they seek to change their gender identity, whether or not they are in a position to make that decision because they're a minor.
如今的一个大争论是，如果人们寻求改变自己的性别认同，他们是否有能力做出这一决定，因为他们是未成年人。
Minors are not legally allowed to make all sorts of decisions like vote, drive a car, all sorts of things.
法律不允许未成年人做出各种决定，比如投票、开车等等。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Marry, yes.
结婚，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Work, in this country anyway, work a job.
工作，无论如何，在这个国家，工作就是工作。
I think you have to be, used to be 14, I don't know what it is now.
我想你一定是，以前是14岁，我不知道现在是什么了。
But it's an interesting biological question when you just say, okay, forgetting all of that and just asking, okay, what is the condition of a 10-year-old brain versus a 14-year-old brain that's entering puberty versus a 16-year-old brain that's still transitioning through puberty, maybe in late phases of puberty, versus 25, which is when we know brain development is more or less coming to a close, although brain development continues forever.
但这是一个有趣的生物学问题，当你只是说，好吧，忘记所有这些，只是问，好吧，10岁的大脑与进入青春期的14岁的大脑相比，仍在青春期过渡的16岁的大脑（可能处于青春期后期）与25岁的大脑状况如何时，我们知道大脑发育或多或少即将结束，尽管大脑发育永远持续下去。
How is anyone going to eventually come to an agreement one way or the other on this?
如何才能最终以某种方式就此达成一致呢？
Is there real biology that we can look at in mice or in humans and say like, okay, here's the dynamic tension.
是否存在真正的生物学，我们可以在小鼠或人类身上观察并说，好吧，这就是动态张力。
The dynamic tension out there is there are people saying there are kids that are too young to know what they are, let alone choose what they want to be.
人们说，有些孩子还太小，不知道自己是谁，更不用说选择自己想成为什么了。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then on the other side, you've got people battling saying, "No, it's essential to get in early because then the trajectory is more malleable, and then you don't want somebody to end up in a place where change isn't possible." And then you have people saying, "Well, wait.
另一方面，人们会争辩说：“不，尽早介入很重要，因为这样轨迹就更具可塑性，然后你不希望有人最终陷入一个不可能改变的地方。”然后人们会说：“好吧，等等。
They changed gender, and then now they want to reverse later, and they're angry that they were allowed to make the decision." So it's a mess.
他们改变了性别，现在他们想稍后再改变，他们对自己被允许做出这个决定感到愤怒。”所以这是一团糟。
It's a genuine mess in terms of defining what the key parameters are.
在定义关键参数方面确实是一团糟。
Do you think it will ever be resolved?
您认为这个问题会得到解决吗？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Let me step back and say we don't even know much about this in the mouse yet.
让我退一步说，我们对鼠标的这一点还知之甚少。
So we don't know what happens to the mouse brain in puberty.
所以我们不知道老鼠的大脑在青春期会发生什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
There are experiments being done, but certainly not the same detail as in the adult mouse brain.
正在进行一些实验，但肯定与成年小鼠大脑的细节不同。
So how circuits are made plastic or how they're malleable at puberty is still sort of being worked out in the mouse.
因此，如何使电路变得可塑，或者如何使它们在青春期具有可塑性，仍然是在老鼠身上研究出来的。
So that's the first answer.
这就是第一个答案。
The second one, the reason I think it's contentious is, A, it's both deeply personal, what the kids are feeling, but also there's these huge sort of societal political forces that come into play.
第二个，我认为它有争议的原因是，A，这既是孩子们的感受，也是非常个人的，而且还有这些巨大的社会政治力量在发挥作用。
So I think the tension there has to be resolved, I think, politically and socially, rather than just resorting to science.
因此，我认为必须从政治和社会角度解决那里的紧张局势，而不仅仅是诉诸科学。
I think science will give you data, but you will still have to make a decision as to whether or not that'll be allowed.
我认为科学会给你数据，但你仍然必须决定是否允许这样做。
So I think that's the reason it is so contentious.
所以我认为这就是它如此有争议的原因。
The data's not there in terms, at least in the mouse, or other animal models, or it's coming out slowly.
至少在小鼠或其他动物模型中，数据还没有，或者数据出来得很慢。
And socially and politically, it's very volatile, because it's not clear how you have kids' rights, parental rights, societal expectations intersect and give a result that is satisfactory to everybody.
从社会和政治角度来看，情况非常不稳定，因为尚不清楚如何将儿童权利、父母权利、社会期望相互交叉并产生令每个人都满意的结果。
So that's where we are.
这就是我们现在的情况。
I'm not saying I'm pro one or against the other.
我并不是说我支持其中一种或反对另一种。
I'm just saying that's why it's so contentious in my mind.
我只是说这就是为什么它在我心中如此有争议。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Today is a biological discussion because that's what we can say things about for sure.
今天是一个生物学讨论，因为这是我们可以肯定地说的。
We can talk about biology for sure.
我们肯定可以谈论生物学。
The other pieces, they're even prone to tripwires related to language, and that, for biologists, is no fun.
其他部分甚至容易受到与语言相关的绊线的影响，这对于生物学家来说并不有趣。
And the whole reason to become a biologist as opposed to a psychologist is because, while I have tremendous respect for the field, biologists have nomenclature committees.
成为生物学家而不是心理学家的全部原因是因为，虽然我非常尊重这个领域，但生物学家有命名委员会。
We agree.
我们同意。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because you could make this argument about anything.
因为你可以对任何事情进行争论。
Again, by way of example, you could say, "Oh, the SRY gene is the SRY gene." But what if it's just two amino acids different and it's still functional?
同样，举例来说，您可以说：“哦，SRY 基因就是 SRY 基因。”但如果它只是两个氨基酸不同并且仍然具有功能呢？
Is it still the SRY gene?
还是SRY基因吗？
Well, there are nomenclature committees where people decide yes or no. You have a community agreement in order to go forward, and you don't have that in terms of the discussion around gender, but you have it around the discussion of sex.
嗯，有一些命名委员会，人们可以决定是或否。为了前进，你有一个社区协议，在围绕性别的讨论方面你没有这个协议，但你在性的讨论方面有它。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
And circuits.
和电路。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And circuits.
和电路。
So let's talk about circuits for sex.
那么我们来谈谈性回路。
Start there.
从那里开始。
Let's start with a recent discovery your laboratory made, which is about sexual behavior in males and the frequency of sexual behavior.
让我们从你们实验室最近的一项发现开始，该发现与男性的性行为和性行为的频率有关。
I think most everyone who has gone through sex education in one form or another understands that males have a refractory period after ejaculation in which they don't mate again, and in some cases can't mate again.
我想大多数接受过某种形式性教育的人都知道，雄性在射精后会经历一段不应期，在此期间他们不会再次交配，在某些情况下甚至无法再次交配。
What did you discover about the neural circuits responsible for mating and the refractory period?
关于负责交配和不应期的神经回路，您有什么发现？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So this is in the mouse, and we were working in male mice, and we sort of hit upon these neurons.
这是在小鼠身上进行的，我们在雄性小鼠身上进行了研究，我们偶然发现了这些神经元。
We identified these neurons using genetics that expressed a specific set of genes in the hypothalamus, that if we activate them, male mice no longer have a refractory period.
我们利用在下丘脑中表达一组特定基因的遗传学鉴定了这些神经元，如果我们激活它们，雄性小鼠就不再有不应期。
And the strain of mouse we were working on has a post-ejaculation refractory period of about four to five days.
我们研究的小鼠品系的射精后不应期约为四到五天。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Typically?
通常？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Typically.
通常。
So he won't mate for up to four days with a female after ejaculation.
因此，在射精后的四天内，他不会与雌性交配。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So if he is presented a female, and they mate, he ejaculates, you remove that female, you give him a new female, he won't mate with her for four or five days.
因此，如果他看到一只雌性，它们交配，他射精，你把那个雌性移走，给他一个新的雌性，他在四五天内不会与她交配。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Correct.
正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He's content, or he's not able or whatever.
他很满足，或者他不能，或者其他什么。
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
So we sort of switch these cells on with optogenetics.
所以我们用光遗传学来打开这些细胞。
We electrically activate these cells with light, and they lose the refractory period.
我们用光电激活这些细胞，它们就会失去不应期。
They start mating within a second.
它们在一秒钟内开始交配。
As soon as the light comes on, the cells start firing, they start mating again, and they can ejaculate again.
一旦灯亮起，细胞就开始放电，它们再次开始交配，并且可以再次射精。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you reduce the refractory period from four to five days to one second.
因此，不应期从四到五天缩短到一秒。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How long can they keep this up?
他们能保持这种状态多久？
No pun intended.
没有双关语的意思。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
As long as the light is on, they'll keep mating.
只要灯亮着，它们就会继续交配。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you're not talking about light presented to the eyes.
而且你说的不是呈现在眼睛上的光。
You're talking about basically a light-driven way to stimulate the neurons.
您谈论的基本上是一种光驱动的刺激神经元的方法。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What are these neurons?
这些神经元是什么？
What are they called?
他们叫什么？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
They're in the hypothalamus.
它们位于下丘脑。
They're in the preoptic area, which is one of the most Sexually differentiated areas in the brain across vertebrates, and they express the gene tachykinin receptor one, TacR1.
它们位于视前区，这是脊椎动物大脑中性别分化最明显的区域之一，它们表达速激肽受体一 TacR1 基因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I thought tachykinin is associated with aggression.
我认为速激肽与攻击性有关。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Social behaviors, depending on the circuit.
社交行为，取决于电路。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
So flies, it's been shown, David Anderson's shown, for example, the Tac1, the tachykinin gene regulates aggression.
大卫·安德森（David Anderson）已经证明，苍蝇，例如，Tac1，速激肽基因调节攻击性。
In this circuit in the male mouse, it regulates sexual behavior.
在雄性小鼠的这条回路中，它调节性行为。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How many neurons?
有多少个神经元？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Maybe about 1,200, 1,500 on each side, so about 2,000, 2,500 cells total.
每侧大约有 1,200、1,500 个，因此总共大约有 2,000、2,500 个单元。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。
Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.
去年，在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我成为了 Function 成员。
Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health.
Function 提供 100 多项高级实验室测试，为您提供整个身体健康状况的关键快照。
This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more.
此快照为您提供有关心脏健康、激素健康、免疫功能、营养水平等方面的见解。
They've also recently added tests for toxins, such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics and tests for PFAS, or forever chemicals.
他们最近还增加了毒素测试，例如有害塑料中的 BPA 暴露以及 PFAS 或永久化学物质的测试。
Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas.
Function 不仅提供对您的身心健康至关重要的 100 多种生物标记物的测试，而且还分析这些结果并提供相关领域专家的顶级医生的见解。
For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood.
例如，在我第一次使用 Function 进行测试时，我发现我的血液中汞含量升高。
Function not only helped me detect that, but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, N-acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification.
功能不仅帮助我发现了这一点，还为我提供了如何最好地降低汞含量的见解，其中包括限制我的金枪鱼摄入量，我一直在吃大量金枪鱼，同时还努力多吃绿叶蔬菜并补充 NAC、N-乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都可以支持谷胱甘肽的产生和解毒。
And I should say, by taking a second Function test, that approach worked.
我应该说，通过进行第二次功能测试，这种方法奏效了。
Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important.
全面的血液检测至关重要。
There's so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test.
有很多与您的心理和身体健康相关的事情只能通过血液检查来检测。
The problem is blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated.
问题是血液检测一直非常昂贵且复杂。
In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost.
相比之下，Function 的简单性和成本水平给我留下了深刻的印象。
It is very affordable.
这是非常实惠的。
As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.
因此，我决定加入他们的科学顾问委员会，我很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。
If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Function，可以访问 functionhealth.com/huberman。
Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman podcast listeners.
Function 目前有超过 250,000 人的等待名单，但他们正在为 Huberman 播客听众提供早期访问服务。
Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.
同样，可以通过 functionhealth.com/huberman 提前访问 Function。
If we were to scale the size of the preoptic area from the mouse to the human, back of the envelope calculation, how many neurons is this in humans?
如果我们将小鼠视前区的大小缩放到人类，进行包络计算，人类有多少个神经元？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Roughly the same range, because the human hypothalamus hasn't expanded that much.
大致相同的范围，因为人类下丘脑还没有扩张那么多。
It's the human cortex that's expanded.
这是人类皮质的扩张。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
We should remind people of this, or let them know, the hypothalamus in your brain is what?
我们应该提醒人们这一点，或者让他们知道，你大脑中的下丘脑是什么？
The size of a couple of marbles sitting above the roof of your mouth, controlling all of this stuff.
几个弹珠大小的东西位于你的上颚上方，控制着所有这些东西。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
So in the mouse, these cells account for about 3,000 cells, account for, I don't know, 1/10,000th of the mouse brain.
所以在老鼠身上，这些细胞大约占了3000个细胞，我不知道，占老鼠大脑的1/10,000。
So take the same number to the human brain, which has 80 billion neurons.
因此，对于拥有 800 亿个神经元的人脑来说，也是同样的数字。
So it's really a tiny, tiny subset of cells, so a few thousand, maybe 100,000 on the human, 10,000 on the human.
所以它实际上是一个非常非常小的细胞子集，所以人体有几千个，可能有 100,000 个，人体有 10,000 个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So if stimulation of these cells reduces the refractory period to essentially zero, one second, it's not zero seconds, but, and that's with the same female or you can replace females, he'll just keep mating.
因此，如果刺激这些细胞将不应期减少到基本上为零，一秒，那不是零秒，但是，对于同一个雌性，或者你可以替换雌性，他就会继续交配。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Without the light, without the activation, he wouldn't have ejaculated again for four or five days.
如果没有光，没有激活，他四五天内就不会再射精了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So this tells us that these neurons control the entire circuit down to ejaculation.
所以这告诉我们这些神经元控制整个电路直到射精。
So because the words refractory period encompass a bunch of things, right?
因为不应期这个词包含了很多东西，对吗？
The difficulty in achieving erection as easily as one did prior to the first mating.
难以像第一次交配前那样轻松地实现勃起。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Presumably, this bypasses all the dopamine aspect of it.
据推测，这绕过了它的所有多巴胺方面。
What about prolactin controlling the refractory period?
催乳素控制不应期怎么样？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yeah, I don't think the data on that is super strong.
是的，我不认为这方面的数据非常有力。
I think Susanna Lima's done some work, and she doesn't find any sort of relation with prolactin and refractory period.
我认为苏珊娜·利马做了一些工作，她没有发现催乳素和不应期有任何关系。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Although in humans, there's a practice of people taking, I forget what the, I'm not pretending to forget what the drug is.
虽然在人类中，有一种人们服用药物的做法，但我忘记了是什么，我并不是假装忘记药物是什么。
It's cabergoline, which is a dopaminergic agonist, which is used to treat hyperprolactinemia, to reduce prolactin.
它是卡麦角林，是一种多巴胺能激动剂，用于治疗高催乳素血症，以降低催乳素。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it seems to be very pro libido in males and females.
而且对于男性和女性来说，这似乎都非常有利于性欲。
People, and I do not recommend this, people take it recreationally.
人们，我不推荐这样做，人们把它当作消遣。
There's actually a slippery slope of this, where people will take it in an effort to have more sex, but they can't achieve orgasm.
实际上这是一个滑坡，人们会努力进行更多的性行为，但他们无法达到性高潮。
And so it drives them crazy, and they're institutionalized.
这让他们发疯，他们被制度化了。
I'm just kidding, they're not institutionalized, but it drives them crazy, and they decide it's not a good choice.
我只是开玩笑，他们没有被制度化，但这让他们发疯，他们认为这不是一个好的选择。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
So yeah, I think that's a great point.
是的，我认为这是一个很好的观点。
Let me circle back to the same circuit and also sort of take you on a tangent.
让我回到同一条赛道，也有点带你切线。
I think people with Parkinson's taking L-DOPA-
我认为患有帕金森病的人服用左旋多巴-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
...
...
also augmenting dopamine levels because they are giving the precursor to dopamine, right?
也会增加多巴胺水平，因为它们提供多巴胺的前体，对吗？
And there are reports in the literature saying that there is an increase in hypersexual-type behavior.
文献报道称，性欲亢进型行为有所增加。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You see this in the case that I heard years ago on the radio, was of a woman who was taking L-DOPA to treat her Parkinson's, and she became a gambling addict.
你可以在几年前我在广播中听到的一个案例中看到这一点，是一位妇女服用左旋多巴来治疗她的帕金森氏症，她成了赌博成瘾者。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
So part of the spectrum of taking L-DOPA in Parkinson's is you get these compulsive behaviors coming out or hypersexual behaviors coming out.
因此，在帕金森病中服用左旋多巴的一部分是你会出现这些强迫行为或过度性行为。
And coming back to our circuit, the TacR1, the tachykinin receptor circuit, we also found that activating these cells leads to dopamine release in the nucleus accumbens.
回到我们的电路，TacR1，速激肽受体电路，我们还发现激活这些细胞会导致伏隔核中多巴胺的释放。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, interesting, which it all makes sense, but these neurons themselves are not responsive to dopamine, are they?
哦，有趣，这一切都有道理，但是这些神经元本身对多巴胺没有反应，不是吗？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
No, they don't express receptors for dopamine.
不，它们不表达多巴胺受体。
They project to the ventral tegmental area, which is dopaminergic, which has a lot of dopamine neurons, and they activate these cells, which then release dopamine in the nucleus accumbens.
它们投射到腹侧被盖区，该区域是多巴胺能的，有很多多巴胺神经元，它们激活这些细胞，然后在伏隔核中释放多巴胺。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So these cells are like switches.
所以这些细胞就像开关。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yes.
是的。
And they're also, we think, encoding The rewarding aspects of sexual behavior.
我们认为，它们还编码了性行为的有益方面。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Tell me more about that.
告诉我更多相关信息。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
So people would describe sexual behavior as pleasurable.
所以人们会把性行为描述为令人愉悦的。
It is pleasurable.
这是令人愉快的。
And about 70 years ago, James Olds and Peter Milner, in classic studies, showed that there were areas in the brain that if you put an electrode in that region and you gave a rat an option to press a lever to deliver electric current into that brain region, many areas were identified by Olds and Milner where the rats would keep pressing the lever to get a hit of the current, if you will, right?
大约 70 年前，詹姆斯·奥兹 (James Olds) 和彼得·米尔纳 (Peter Milner) 在经典研究中表明，如果你在大脑中的某些区域放置一个电极，然后让老鼠选择按下杠杆以将电流传递到该大脑区域，那么奥兹和米尔纳发现了许多区域，老鼠会在这些区域不断按下杠杆以获得电流，如果你愿意的话，对吗？
And he identified such a sort of rewarding center or reinforcing center in the hypothalamus of the rat, and he said, "This must be the pleasure center for sex," right?
他在老鼠的下丘脑中发现了这样一种奖励中心或强化中心，他说，“这一定是性快感中心，”对吗？
He had a piece in Scientific American on this.
他在《科学美国人》杂志上发表了一篇关于此的文章。
But the identity of these cells wasn't known.
但这些细胞的身份尚不清楚。
As we talked about, the hypothalamus is super complex.
正如我们所讨论的，下丘脑非常复杂。
It regulates not only mating and aggression and maternal behaviors, it regulates body temperature, thirst, feeding.
它不仅调节交配、攻击性和母性行为，还调节体温、口渴和进食。
It regulates many different behaviors.
它规范许多不同的行为。
So which cells are sort of encoding rewarding properties of sexual behavior?
那么哪些细胞编码了性行为的奖励特性呢？
So these TacR1 cells, if you give mice the opportunity to activate these cells with optogenetics, so instead of pressing a lever, they just poke up their nose in a hole, and if they poke their nose in a hole that has the correct hole, they get light stimulation into these neurons.
所以这些 TacR1 细胞，如果你给老鼠机会用光遗传学激活这些细胞，那么它们就不用按下杠杆，而是把鼻子伸进洞里，如果它们把鼻子伸进有正确洞的洞里，它们的神经元就会受到光刺激。
So these mice, once they learn, once they figure out that this port or hole delivers light and therefore electrical activation of these cells, the TacR1 cells, they'll keep doing that repeatedly.
因此，这些小鼠一旦学会了，一旦它们发现这个端口或孔传递光，从而电激活这些细胞（TacR1 细胞），它们就会继续重复这样做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it.
明白了。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Okay.
好的。
So it says that-
所以它说——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They like it.
他们喜欢它。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
They love it.
他们喜欢它。
Right.
正确的。
And in fact, they could be sexually naive, they could be virgins, and they still love it.
事实上，他们可能在性方面很天真，他们可能是处女，但他们仍然喜欢它。
Right?
正确的？
So this rewarding property of these neurons doesn't depend on past sexual experience.
因此，这些神经元的这种奖励特性并不依赖于过去的性经历。
These neurons are naturally encoding some form of reward or reinforcing behavior.
这些神经元自然地编码某种形式的奖励或强化行为。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Does it require sexual behavior itself?
它需要性行为本身吗？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
No, that's what I said.
不，我就是这么说的。
So virgin males will do it, too.
所以处女男也会这样做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, you mean while they're still virgins.
哦，你是说当她们还是处女的时候。
I thought you meant-
我以为你的意思是——
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
having never had sexual experience before.
以前从未有过性经历。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is important because as you and I know, Dayu Lin's work from NYU showed that these neurons in the ventromedial hypothalamus, when stimulated, mice will attack another mouse.
这很重要，因为正如你和我所知，纽约大学的林大宇的研究表明，下丘脑腹内侧的这些神经元在受到刺激时，会攻击另一只老鼠。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They'll even attack a glove.
他们甚至会攻击手套。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We can put a link to these videos.
我们可以添加这些视频的链接。
They're very dramatic to see this, the stimulation of these neurons goes on, and they just will attack the glove, attack the other mouse, stop the stimulation, they stop.
他们非常戏剧性地看到这一点，这些神经元的刺激仍在继续，他们只会攻击手套，攻击另一只老鼠，停止刺激，他们就会停止。
It's like a rage switch.
这就像愤怒开关。
But if there's no glove or mouse to attack, they don't attack anything at all.
但如果没有手套或鼠标可以攻击，它们就不会攻击任何东西。
They just cruise around their cage.
它们只是在笼子里转来转去。
These neurons are different.
这些神经元是不同的。
These neurons seem to make the, what you're calling virgin males, they'll work to stimulate these cells, but are they maybe can't get around this, are they masturbating?
这些神经元似乎会产生你所谓的处女男性，它们会努力刺激这些细胞，但它们是否可能无法解决这个问题，它们在自慰吗？
What are they doing?
他们在做什么？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Well, the brain's getting activated, so the center for mating's getting activated.
嗯，大脑被激活了，所以交配中心也被激活了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
But what are they doing with that activation?
但他们用这个激活来做什么呢？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
They're not doing anything else.
他们没有做任何其他事情。
They're just going into the port again and again and again.
他们只是一次又一次地进入港口。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, so in a lot of ways, it's like these ventromedial hypothalamus neurons.
好吧，在很多方面，它就像这些腹内侧下丘脑神经元。
They need something to mate with.
他们需要一些东西来交配。
It's not like they start mating with the hole-
它们并不是开始与洞交配——
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
No
否
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the wall.
在墙上。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not like they start mating with inanimate objects.
它们并不是开始与无生命的物体交配。
They like the feeling of these neurons being stimulated, but the neurons themselves don't trigger mating.
它们喜欢这些神经元被刺激的感觉，但神经元本身不会触发交配。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Let me step back.
让我退后一步。
I think we are confusing two things, right?
我认为我们混淆了两件事，对吗？
So not confusing, we are conflating two things.
所以不要混淆，我们混淆了两件事。
One is, do the mice like activation of the neurons?
一是，小鼠喜欢神经元的激活吗？
And the answer is yes, they love it because they keep doing it, even if they've never mated before.
答案是肯定的，他们喜欢这样，因为他们一直这样做，即使他们以前从未交配过。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, so the analogous experiment for the Dayu Lin stuff would be, will animals work for stimulation of the VMH?
好吧，林大宇的类似实验是，动物会刺激 VMH 吗？
And we know the answer is yes.
我们知道答案是肯定的。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Male animals will work to fight.
雄性动物会努力战斗。
They like to fight.
他们喜欢打架。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
But if you activate these neurons, just like if you activate the VMH, you get aggression towards a glove, if you activate these neurons and you give them an object, they will try and mount with it, as long as it looks like a mouse.
但是如果你激活这些神经元，就像激活 VMH 一样，你就会对手套产生攻击性，如果你激活这些神经元并给它们一个物体，它们就会尝试安装它，只要它看起来像一只老鼠。
So if you give it a toy mouse, the males will try and mount the toy mouse.
因此，如果你给它一只玩具老鼠，雄性就会尝试骑上玩具老鼠。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But if you give them, say, a marble?
但如果你给他们，比如说，一颗弹珠呢？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
No. A beaker?
不，烧杯？
No. A wooden block?
不，一块木块？
No. But if you take a test tube-
不。但是如果你拿试管——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
...
...
they won't mount it.
他们不会安装它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Interesting.
有趣。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
But if you take a toy mouse tail and glue it to the test tube so it now has some mouse-like elements, they will try and mount it.
但如果你把玩具老鼠尾巴粘到试管上，这样它现在就有了一些类似老鼠的元素，他们就会尝试安装它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very low threshold for activating the behavior.
激活该行为的门槛非常低。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I think what it says, just like the aggression experiment says, is that there are these innate circuits, these hard-wired circuits, that if you activate them and you have the right stimulus, the animals will attempt to do the behavior that these circuits are wired for.
我认为它所说的，就像攻击性实验所说的那样，是有这些先天的回路，这些硬连线的回路，如果你激活它们并且有正确的刺激，动物就会尝试做这些回路所固有的行为。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or even the wrong stimulus, but one that resembles it just barely.
或者甚至是错误的刺激，但只是勉强相似。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
By stimulus, I mean-
我所说的刺激是指——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, a tail on a test tube?
我的意思是，试管上的尾巴？
Come on.
快点。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
By stimulus, I meant optogenetic stimulation.
我所说的刺激是指光遗传学刺激。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, I've seen some people with some pretty low standards for who they'll mate with-
我的意思是，我见过一些人对于与谁交往的标准相当低-
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
No, no
不，不
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and what they'll mate with, but that's pretty low.
以及它们会与什么交配，但这个比例相当低。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
By right stimulus, I meant by activating these cells with optogenetics.
我所说的正确刺激是指通过光遗传学激活这些细胞。
So if you activate these cells and you give them an inanimate object, if it roughly resembles something that they're familiar with, that looks like a mouse in this case, they'll try and mount it.
因此，如果你激活这些细胞并给他们一个无生命的物体，如果它大致类似于他们熟悉的东西，在这种情况下看起来像一只老鼠，他们会尝试安装它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But if you give a mouse with no stimulation of these neurons a test tube with a tail?
但是如果你给一只没有刺激这些神经元的老鼠一个有尾巴的试管呢？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Nothing happens.
什么也没发生。
They'll sniff it, they'll sort of maybe play with it, and then they'll walk away.
他们会闻它，也许会玩它，然后他们就会走开。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a significant result to reduce the refractory period from four days or five days to one second.
这是将不应期从四天或五天缩短到一秒的重大成果。
What is the theory as to why there's a refractory period at all?
关于为什么存在不应期的理论是什么？
Is this female driven?
这是女驱吗？
Is it based on the female sexual behavior preferences or non-preferences, or is it something related to controlling population numbers, like you would end up with, I don't know, too many pregnancies from one male?
是基于女性性行为偏好或非偏好，还是与控制人口数量有关，就像我不知道，最终会导致一名男性怀孕过多？
What's the idea there?
那里有什么想法？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Actually, every species has a different refractory period, and in the mouse, because of genetic inbreeding, there are lots of strains of mice.
事实上，每个物种都有不同的不应期，而在小鼠中，由于基因近交，存在着很多小鼠品系。
People have been raising and breeding mice as pets and whatnot, and different strains of mice will also have different refractory periods So there's definitely a sort of genetic basis for refractive period that may be species specific and also strain specific in the mouse.
人们一直饲养和饲养老鼠作为宠物等等，不同品系的老鼠也会有不同的不应期，所以屈光期肯定有一种遗传基础，可能是物种特异性的，也可能是小鼠品系特异性的。
As to why you've genetically selected for a specific refractive period in a species, I think is generally unknown.
至于为什么在一个物种中通过基因选择特定的屈光期，我认为通常是未知的。
It could depend on the kinds of mating strategies different species use.
这可能取决于不同物种使用的交配策略类型。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, in humans, who mate not just to reproduce, but also for pleasure, what is known about the relationship between age and the refractory period duration?
那么，对于人类来说，交配不仅是为了繁殖，也是为了快乐，我们对年龄和不应期持续时间之间的关系了解多少？
Some years ago, I was reading this book, as I did again this weekend, about hormones and behavior.
几年前，我正在读这本书，就像这个周末我再次读的那样，关于荷尔蒙和行为的书。
And it's really interesting.
这真的很有趣。
When you look at the distribution of testosterone levels in males from age, say, 20 up to 90, there's a big range at any given age, and it's not clear that absolute testosterone numbers are that informative anyway, but they point in a certain direction.
当你观察男性从 20 岁到 90 岁的睾酮水平分布时，会发现在任何特定年龄都有很大的范围，而且目前还不清楚绝对睾酮水平是否能提供足够的信息，但它们指向某个方向。
But you also look at copulatory frequency, sex frequency, as a function of age, and it's also highly variable.
但你也会看到交配频率、性行为频率作为年龄的函数，而且它也是高度可变的。
There are these famous/infamous cases of Frank Lloyd Wright, who was purportedly having sex up to four, five, six, seven times a day and did that well into his 80s, to the point where his wife at one point was really concerned, like, "Is this okay for his health?" And he was also an incredibly productive person in other domains of life.
弗兰克·劳埃德·赖特（Frank Lloyd Wright）有这些著名/臭名昭著的案例，据称他每天的性行为多达四、五、六、七次，并且在他 80 多岁的时候仍然如此，以至于他的妻子一度非常担心，比如，“这对他的健康好吗？”他在生活的其他领域也是一个非常富有成效的人。
Also, by the way, an incredible procrastinator.
顺便说一句，他也是一个令人难以置信的拖延者。
Apparently did all his sketches on the cab ride over to the deadline.
显然，他所有的草图都是在出租车上完成的，直到截止日期。
He sort of functioned in this thoughtful/impulsive manner, so people say.
人们说，他的行事方式有点深思熟虑/冲动。
But he certainly never contested these rumors.
但他当然从未对这些谣言提出异议。
And then some people probably just have lower libido.
有些人可能只是性欲较低。
But as a function of age, is the idea that it's all testosterone driven, if testosterone levels drop, then frequency of mating, assuming someone has a partner that they mate with, drops off?
但作为年龄的函数，是否认为这一切都是睾酮驱动的，如果睾酮水平下降，那么交配频率（假设某人有与之交配的伴侣）就会下降？
What's known about this?
这件事有什么已知的？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
As you pointed out, testosterone levels vary all over the place.
正如您所指出的，睾酮水平各地都有所不同。
You could have normal levels of testosterone, quote-unquote normal levels, and there's already a huge range of normal titers, circulating levels of testosterone.
你可能有正常的睾酮水平，引用不引用的正常水平，并且已经存在很大范围的正常滴度，睾酮的循环水平。
But also, you could have different receptor densities in different regions.
而且，不同区域的受体密度也可能不同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
So it's hard to just take one parameter, testosterone levels, and say that correlates with libido or with the desire to mate in humans.
因此，很难仅采用睾酮水平这一参数，并说它与人类的性欲或交配欲望相关。
Why sexual behavior changes or the refractory period changes, I don't think it's generally known.
为什么性行为会改变或不应期会改变，我认为这并不是众所周知的。
It could be biological, it could be social, it could be many things.
它可能是生物性的，也可能是社会性的，可能是很多事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I neglected to ask the obvious question, which is, do these neurons also exist in the female brain?
我忽略了一个显而易见的问题，那就是，这些神经元也存在于女性大脑中吗？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yes, they do.
是的，他们确实这么做了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And what are they controlling in the female brain?
它们在女性大脑中控制着什么？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
We don't know yet.
我们还不知道。
But Yi-Chao Wei, a postdoctoral fellow in my lab, when he was a graduate student, activated a larger subset of these cells in the preoptic hypothalamus in the females, and they all express estrogen receptor, estrogen receptor alpha, ESR1.
但我实验室的博士后魏一超在读研究生时激活了女性视前下丘脑中更大的这些细胞子集，它们都表达雌激素受体、雌激素受体α、ESR1。
And these females also mated like males.
这些雌性也像雄性一样交配。
So this sort of harks back to something we talked about earlier, that the circuit for male sexual behavior is present in the female brain.
所以这有点让人回想起我们之前讨论过的事情，即男性性行为的回路存在于女性大脑中。
And he sort of identified a node in the female brain that lets them mate like males if he activates this optogenetically.
他在女性大脑中发现了一个节点，如果他通过光遗传学激活这个节点，那么它们就可以像男性一样交配。
Whether the Tacr1 cells that we identified do the same, we don't know yet.
我们鉴定的 Tacr1 细胞是否也有同样的功能，我们还不知道。
We're working on that.
我们正在努力解决这个问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Without getting too down in the nitty-gritty of circuit biology, but also getting down into the nitty-gritty of circuit biology, I have to know.
在不深入了解电路生物学的本质的情况下，但也深入了解电路生物学的本质，我必须知道。
So where do these cells connect to?
那么这些细胞连接到哪里呢？
You mentioned that they're in communication with the dopamine system to activate this kind of sense of reward-
你提到他们与多巴胺系统沟通以激活这种奖励感-
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
pleasure, and reinforcement to drive more of the behavior.
快乐和强化来驱动更多的行为。
Where else are these cells projecting?
这些细胞还投射到哪里？
It's a long way from 1,200 neurons to the penis.
从 1,200 个神经元到阴茎有很长的距离。
What's in between?
中间是什么？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So one big area they project to, a really dense projection from these cells, is to the periaqueductal gray.
因此，它们投射到的一大区域，即这些细胞的非常密集的投射，是导水管周围灰质。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
An area involved in pain regulation.
涉及疼痛调节的区域。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
And many other sort of innate behavioral displays.
还有许多其他类型的先天行为表现。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
So fight or flight, freezing behavior.
所以战斗或逃跑，冻结行为。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
And also sort of lordosis behavior.
还有一种脊柱前凸的行为。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And for folks that aren't familiar with neuroanatomy, the periaqueductal gray sits in the back of the brain, back-ish of the brain.
对于不熟悉神经解剖学的人来说，导水管周围灰质位于大脑后部，大脑的后部。
And I always imagine it kind of like a pizza.
我总是想象它有点像披萨。
It's got these segments.
它有这些部分。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
It has these sectors, yeah.
它有这些部门，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You activate one brain area, it's involved in suppressing the pain response.
你激活大脑的一个区域，它参与抑制疼痛反应。
You activate another area, it's involved in female lordosis.
你激活了另一个区域，它与女性脊柱前凸有关。
You activate another area, it's involved in kind of fleeing.
你激活了另一个区域，它涉及某种逃跑。
You activate another area, it's an approach.
你激活另一个区域，这是一种方法。
So either it hasn't been parsed finely enough or it's almost like a mirror of the hypothalamus further back in the brain.
因此，要么它没有被足够精细地解析，要么它几乎就像大脑中更靠后的下丘脑的镜子。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So they project to the PAG.
所以他们向 PAG 投射。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then from there-
然后从那里开始——
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
And the PAG goes through the brain stem.
PAG 穿过脑干。
It's already in the back of the brain, as you pointed out, and then goes further down through multiple connections to the spinal cord.
正如您所指出的，它已经位于大脑后部，然后通过多个连接进一步向下到达脊髓。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then it innervates with the bulbo cavernosis or whatever controls erection.
然后它受球海绵体或任何控制勃起的东西的支配。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Genital muscles and the thoracic muscles involved in thrusting and whatnot.
生殖器肌肉和胸肌参与推力等。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
It's a program that's a innate program.
这是一个与生俱来的程序。
Most animals have to learn the socialization of mating, dating, consent, all other things, but they don't have to learn the motor programs.
大多数动物必须学习交配、约会、同意以及所有其他事情的社会化，但它们不必学习运动程序。
The motor programs are activated during puberty, is that right?
运动程序在青春期被激活，对吗？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some years ago, I recall a paper showing that mounting behavior could be both aggressive or reproductive.
几年前，我记得一篇论文表明，攀爬行为可能既具有攻击性，也可能具有繁殖性。
What's the story there?
那里有什么故事？
Because females do it too.
因为女性也会这样做。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
So you're saying by aggressive, you mean a form of dominance display?
所以你说的侵略性是指一种显示统治地位的形式？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, like jujitsu
是的，就像柔术一样
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
So people have certainly said that it could be a dominance display because males will sometimes mount males.
所以人们肯定会说这可能是一种统治地位的展示，因为雄性有时会骑上雄性。
Although once males start fighting and once they've had sexual experience, they tend less often to mount other males.
尽管一旦雄性开始打斗并且一旦有了性经历，它们就不会那么频繁地骑上其他雄性。
They just go straight for the kill, if you will.
如果你愿意的话，他们只是直接去杀戮。
And in other species, many non-human primates, animals will just mount each other as sort of a play behavior, or also for giving pleasure.
在其他物种中，许多非人类灵长类动物会互相骑乘，作为一种游戏行为，或者也为了给予快乐。
Right?
正确的？
So that's a known thing.
所以这是众所周知的事情。
So mount, female-female, male-male mounts, they will do it as play behavior in non-human primates.
因此，坐骑，雌性对雌性，雄性对雄性的坐骑，它们会将其视为非人类灵长类动物的玩耍行为。
So there are presumably many reasons to engage in that sort of behavior.
因此，从事这种行为可能有很多原因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's not always sexual, is the idea.
所以这个想法并不总是与性有关。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yeah, not necessarily, right.
是啊，不一定，对吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what other collections of neurons live in this part of our brain that when activated, give critters, us or otherwise, these kind of supernatural, let's just say extreme functions?
那么，还有哪些其他神经元集合存在于我们大脑的这一部分，当它们被激活时，它们会赋予生物、我们或其他生物这些超自然的、让我们只说极端的功能？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Thirst neurons, feeding neurons, right?
口渴神经元、喂养神经元，对吗？
So you can activate specific sets of cells that express AgRP, for example, or other sets of cells.
因此，您可以激活表达 AgRP 的特定细胞组，或其他细胞组。
Animals start drinking water or start eating.
动物开始喝水或开始进食。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Ah, thank you.
啊，谢谢你。
I mean within the context of mating and sexual behavior.
我的意思是在交配和性行为的背景下。
Are there, for instance, neurons that when you stimulate them, mice start building nests?
例如，是否有一些神经元，当你刺激它们时，老鼠就会开始筑巢？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
We don't have those sets of neurons yet, but there are certainly sets of neurons in the same vicinity that regulate parenting behaviors.
我们还没有这些神经元组，但在同一区域肯定有一些神经元组可以调节养育行为。
Right?
正确的？
So they'll start taking care of pups, for example.
例如，他们会开始照顾小狗。
So you can take virgin mice who don't normally take care of pups, and it can activate these circuits, and it can prevent these mice from hurting the pups.
所以你可以拿一些平时不照顾幼崽的处女老鼠，它可以激活这些电路，并且可以防止这些老鼠伤害幼崽。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So normally mice will hurt-
所以通常老鼠会受伤-
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
will hurt other mice pups.
会伤害其他小老鼠。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yes, not their own, right.
是的，不是他们自己的，对吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That sucks.
太糟糕了。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Doesn't say much for mice.
对于老鼠就不多说了。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
Well, a lot of animal species do that.
嗯，很多动物都会这样做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right, they sort of exhibit infanticidal behavior, where there are other species, like voles, that show fostering behavior.
是的，它们表现出杀婴行为，而其他物种，如田鼠，则表现出养育行为。
They take care of pups not their own.
他们照顾的不是自己的小狗。
So it depends on the species you're talking about.
所以这取决于你所说的物种。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, years ago, I worked with ferrets, and they're perfectly happy to raise other ferrets.
是的，几年前，我和雪貂一起工作，他们非常乐意饲养其他雪貂。
They kind of don't even seem to notice if it's theirs or some other ferret's pups, kits.
他们似乎甚至没有注意到这是他们自己的还是其他雪貂的幼崽、幼崽。
Interesting.
有趣的。
Do you think when people get dogs, bulldogs in particular, I'm just joking, dogs, Neural has one of the world's cutest French bulldogs, that some of the caretaking of dogs activates some of the same circuitries in the brain that are responsible for rearing our own species?
你是否认为当人们养狗，特别是斗牛犬时，我只是开玩笑，狗，神经有世界上最可爱的法国斗牛犬之一，对狗的一些照顾会激活大脑中负责养育我们自己物种的一些相同的电路？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
I don't know, to be honest.
老实说，我不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm disappointed to hear you say that.
听到你这么说我很失望。
I must say, I'm disappointed.
我必须说，我很失望。
When I got Costello as a puppy, I'll never forget that for the first, I don't know, three weeks that I had him, I had very little appetite.
当我还是小狗的时候，我永远不会忘记，我不知道，在我拥有它的第一个三周里，我的胃口很小。
My work drive, certainly still there, but I just felt like 99% of my cognition was on his well-being, and-
我的工作动力当然还在，但我只是觉得我 99% 的认知都集中在他的幸福上，而且——
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
But that's certainly true.
但这确实是真的。
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and I could've sworn it was a surge in oxytocin or prolactin or something.
我可以发誓这是催产素或催乳素或其他东西的激增。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Did you measure your oxytocin or prolactin?
您测量过催产素或催乳素吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, I didn't.
不，我没有。
I would have, had I had the means to do it, but there aren't very good tests to do that that are sold over the counter.
如果我有办法的话，我会这么做，但是没有很好的测试可以在柜台上出售。
I should have.
我应该有。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
No, certainly.
不，当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But if I get another puppy, I'll do it, although now I think I'll go about it a little bit more differently.
但如果我再养一只小狗，我会这么做，尽管现在我想我会采取更多不同的方式。
But it was my first dog.
但这是我的第一只狗。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it was, like, all about him.
这一切都是关于他的。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Nothing else really mattered except the basics of maintaining life.
除了维持生命的基本要素之外，没有什么真正重要的。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
No, that part is-
不，那部分是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's how parents describe having a newborn.
这就是父母对新生儿的描述。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
So that's certainly true.
所以这确实是真的。
Cooper's our first dog as well, and if he needs something, it basically takes precedence over everything else.
库珀也是我们的第一只狗，如果他需要什么，基本上会优先于其他一切。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Like feed.
就像饲料一样。
If he needs food or if he needs to go out for a walk-
如果他需要食物或者如果他需要出去散步——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
...
...
then I do drop things, and I just take care of him.
然后我就会放下东西，只照顾他。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
So that part is certainly true.
所以这部分肯定是正确的。
So if you-
所以如果你-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, it inhibits selfishness.
是的，它抑制了自私。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Or inhibits your doing other things, yes.
或者抑制你做其他事情，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Makes you more altruistic, yeah.
让你更加无私，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This was really just my ploy to bring up oxytocin.
这实际上只是我提出催产素的策略。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We hear that oxytocin is the chemical responsible for bonding between romantic partners, bonding between mother and infant, maybe even bonding between friends, et cetera.
我们听说催产素是一种化学物质，负责浪漫伴侣之间、母亲和婴儿之间的联系，甚至朋友之间的联系，等等。
What's the real deal on oxytocin?
催产素的真正作用是什么？
Because I think, like so many things in neuroscience that were first discussed in roughly the '90s, early 2000s, we're getting a lot more data now.
因为我认为，就像大约在 90 年代、2000 年代初首次讨论的神经科学领域的许多问题一样，我们现在获得了更多的数据。
So what's the real deal on oxytocin?
那么催产素的真正作用是什么？
I'm not trying to burst any oxytocin bubbles, but what's the deal with oxytocin?
我并不是想戳破催产素的泡沫，但是催产素有什么用呢？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
So the paradigm that people have mostly used to study the role of oxytocin in pair bonding in animal models has been the prairie vole.
因此，人们主要用来研究催产素在动物模型中的配对作用的范例是草原田鼠。
So these are mouse-sized rodents with very short tails.
这些是老鼠大小的啮齿动物，尾巴很短。
And unlike mice, or rats for that matter, voles, after having sex with one another, they will pair bond for life.
与小鼠或大鼠不同的是，田鼠在彼此发生性行为后，将终生结伴。
They form these long-term, enduring relationships.
他们形成了这些长期、持久的关系。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Completely monogamous.
完全一夫一妻制。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Well, they actually just like humans, they will have extra pair matings as well.
嗯，它们实际上就像人类一样，也会有额外的配对交配。
So they will cheat, if you will.
所以他们会作弊，如果你愿意的话。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
At a Coldplay concert.
在酷玩乐队演唱会上。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Right.
正确的。
But for the most part, they're monogamous, right?
但在大多数情况下，他们是一夫一妻制的，对吧？
So if you give them a potential mate of an opposite sex, they will reject it aggressively.
因此，如果你给他们一个潜在的异性伴侣，他们会强烈拒绝。
Right?
正确的？
So they have these monogamous behaviors, and classic work from many labs had shown that oxytocin was maybe a really huge driver of this sort of monogamous bonding behavior.
所以他们有这些一夫一妻制的行为，许多实验室的经典研究表明，催产素可能是这种一夫一妻制结合行为的真正巨大驱动力。
So it took us about 10, 15 years to develop the technology to make knockout voles, and we've done that.
所以我们花了大约 10 到 15 年的时间来开发制造淘汰田鼠的技术，我们已经做到了。
And this is the work of really heroic postdocs in my laboratory.
这是我实验室里真正英雄的博士后的工作。
And knocking out the oxytocin receptor in prairie voles, we saw that these voles continued to form pair bonds.
当敲除草原田鼠的催产素受体时，我们发现这些田鼠继续形成配对关系。
They were just as monogamous as their wild type siblings were.
他们和他们的野生型兄弟姐妹一样实行一夫一妻制。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, in fairness to oxytocin and to experimental biology generally, when you see an experiment like that you go, "Darn.
所以，公平地对待催产素和实验生物学，当你看到这样的实验时，你会说，“该死。
Everything we thought about oxytocin is wrong," or you say, "Pair bonding is so important that there's redundancy in the system, that other things can compensate." Which one do you think it is?
我们对催产素的所有想法都是错误的，”或者你说，“配对关系是如此重要，以至于系统中存在冗余，其他东西可以弥补。”你认为是哪一位呢？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
So the most likely other candidate's going to be vasopressin because The same folks who had identified oxytocin as being really important for pair bonding had also suggested vasopressin might play a similar role.
因此，最有可能的其他候选者将是加压素，因为那些认为催产素对夫妻关系非常重要的人也认为加压素可能发挥类似的作用。
And vasopressin, like oxytocin, is a neuropeptide hormone, so it's about nine amino acids.
加压素和催产素一样，是一种神经肽激素，因此大约有九种氨基酸。
So it's a short peptide, and it binds a different receptor, vasopressin receptor 1A, that regulates pair bonding behavior.
所以它是一个短肽，它结合不同的受体，加压素受体 1A，调节配对行为。
So that's the next experiment for us, is that vasopressin receptor and vasopressin that's required for pair bonding behavior.
这就是我们的下一个实验，即结对行为所需的加压素受体和加压素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, so we shouldn't give up on oxytocin just yet.
好吧，所以我们还不应该放弃催产素。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Let me also step back.
让我也退后一步。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, please.
哦，拜托。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Let me push back against this idea of, I'm going to get some heat for this, for saying that if it's so important, you want to have redundancies built into the system.
让我反驳这个想法，我会为此受到一些热议，因为我说如果它如此重要，你希望在系统中内置冗余。
We just talked a while ago about SRY.
我们不久前刚刚讨论过 SRY。
You just have one SRY.
您只有一个 SRY。
In fact, it's only on one chromosome, so you only have one copy.
事实上，它只在一条染色体上，所以你只有一份拷贝。
If you don't have it, you're not going to become a male.
如果你没有它，你就不会成为男性。
So there's no redundancy for perhaps the most important decision the embryo is going to make, male or female, and there's no redundancy built in there.
因此，胚胎可能要做的最重要的决定（无论是男性还是女性）没有冗余，而且那里也没有冗余。
So I think it depends on what process we're talking about, if there are going to be redundancies or not.
所以我认为这取决于我们正在讨论的流程，是否会裁员。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
For something extremely critical, if you don't have a redundancy, then I think it could be that other processes also don't have as many redundancies as we thought.
对于极其关键的事情，如果没有冗余，那么我认为其他流程也可能没有我们想象的那么多冗余。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Did you think you were going to get some heat because somebody would say, "Well, that implies the SRY gene is not important and therefore males aren't important?"
你是否认为你会因为有人说“嗯，这意味着 SRY 基因不重要，因此雄性不重要”而受到一些争议？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
No, I think as you and I both were taught during developmental biology classes that we took as grad students, redundancies and multiple pathways regulating a process is a thing, and it's definitely true for many things as we've learned during development and developmental biology.
不，我认为，正如你和我在研究生时所学的发育生物学课程中所学到的那样，冗余和调节过程的多种途径是一件事，而且对于我们在发育和发育生物学过程中学到的许多事情来说，这绝对是正确的。
But also there may be processes where you don't have redundancies that are equally important for life, where if you don't have the gene, you're done.
但也可能在某些过程中，你没有对生命同样重要的冗余，如果你没有基因，你就完了。
Because evolution is agnostic, right?
因为进化论是不可知论的，对吗？
If you're not successful, it doesn't care, it just moves on.
如果你不成功，它不在乎，它只会继续前进。
So you won't reproduce.
所以你不会重现。
Evolution doesn't care.
进化不在乎。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
If you're not fit, you're not fit.
如果你不适合，你就不适合。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
The bad ideas died, literally.
从字面上看，坏主意已经死了。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Or the bad experiments died, right.
或者那些糟糕的实验都死掉了，对吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, so speaking of hormones and behavior and language, and where language can be a little bit complicated, let's talk about libido, right?
好吧，说到荷尔蒙、行为和语言，语言可能有点复杂，我们来谈谈性欲，对吧？
Most people know what that word means.
大多数人都知道这个词的意思。
It's a drive to have sex for reproduction or pleasure or both.
这是为了繁殖或快乐或两者兼而有之的性行为的动力。
And you discovered these neurons that effectively eliminate the refractory period.
你发现这些神经元可以有效消除不应期。
I don't know how an animal could mate any faster than once a second, I guess.
我猜想，我不知道动物怎么能比每秒一次更快地交配。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
No, it's after one second.
不，一秒钟后。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
After one second, I guess so, yeah.
一秒钟后，我想是的，是的。
Okay.
好的。
So there needs to be some time in between.
所以中间需要一段时间。
One second's about as short a refractory period as possible, but we don't really know what's going on in the mind of the mouse.
一秒钟是尽可能短的不应期，但我们并不真正知道老鼠的头脑里到底在想什么。
But when a discovery like this is made, and because of the conservation between the mouse hypothalamus and the human hypothalamus, I think many people are probably thinking, "Oh, is this a druggable target?
但是当这样的发现出现时，并且由于小鼠下丘脑和人类下丘脑之间的保守性，我想很多人可能会想，“哦，这是一个可药物靶标吗？
Is this the sort of thing that could be used to enhance libido or reduce the refractory period in males?" And that opens up a larger discussion, I think, about biology, druggable targets, and sex behavior in humans.
这是可以用来增强男性性欲或缩短男性不应期的东西吗？”我认为，这引发了一场关于生物学、药物靶标和人类性行为的更广泛的讨论。
So there is an FDA-approved drug that targets the melanocortin pathway, I believe?
我相信 FDA 批准了一种针对黑皮质素通路的药物吗？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's used to enhance libido in females.
它用于增强女性的性欲。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Although I hear, I would say if I had, but I've never tried it, but I hear that men take it also, and it has a similar effect, although not as pronounced as in women.
虽然我听说，如果我有的话，我会说，但我从未尝试过，但我听说男性也服用它，并且具有类似的效果，尽管不如女性那么明显。
Tell us about melanocortin and why a drug that stimulates melanocortin would increase libido, and then we'll talk about whether or not the tachykinin neurons that you discovered represent a good druggable target for increasing male libido.
告诉我们关于黑皮质素以及为什么刺激黑皮质素的药物会增加性欲，然后我们将讨论您发现的速激肽神经元是否代表增加男性性欲的良好药物靶点。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
So actually, removing melanocortin signaling in the mouse brain, in male or female mice, does impact sexual behavior in both sexes.
因此，实际上，消除雄性或雌性小鼠大脑中的黑皮质素信号传导确实会影响两性的性行为。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It does, yes?
确实如此，是吗？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
It does.
确实如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
So it seems to be playing a role in sexual behavior in both sexes.
所以它似乎在两性的性行为中都发挥着作用。
The effect, though, of the drug seems to be pretty small.
不过，这种药物的作用似乎很小。
It helps a subset of women, not all women, I think, and there are significant side effects as well of, what's it called?
我认为它可以帮助一部分女性，而不是所有女性，而且也有显着的副作用，它叫什么？
Vyleesi, Valeesi?
维利斯、瓦利斯？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think the drug is called Vyleesi, and my understanding is melanocortin comes from the medial pituitary and is involved in pigmentation of the skin as well.
我认为这种药物叫做 Vyleesi，我的理解是黑皮质素来自内侧垂体，也参与皮肤色素沉着。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it tends to darken people's skin.
所以它往往会使人的皮肤变黑。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
It can cause hyperpigmentation in some women taking it.
它可能会导致一些服用它的女性色素沉着过度。
It's injectable, I think.
我觉得是可以注射的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
So it definitely seems to help a subset of women.
所以它似乎确实对一部分女性有帮助。
I think that's one of the few libido-enhancing drugs out there, and it's very different than Viagra, which works in men, as you know, right?
我认为这是为数不多的增强性欲的药物之一，它与伟哥非常不同，伟哥对男性有效，你知道，对吧？
Because Viagra acts on a more peripheral vascular thing.
因为伟哥作用于更外围的血管。
It doesn't act on libido, it acts on the ability to have an erection.
它不影响性欲，而是影响勃起的能力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right, it's pro-erectile, and I think women will take some of these vasodilators-
是的，它有利于勃起，我认为女性会服用一些血管扩张剂-
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right
没错
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as well-
还有——
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for enhanced sexual function.
以增强性功能。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right, but libido is pretty separable from erectile function, right?
没错，但性欲与勃起功能是分开的，对吗？
As you pointed out, libido is more the desire to engage in sexual behavior, whereas erectile function is the ability to enact on that desire.
正如您所指出的，性欲更多的是进行性行为的欲望，而勃起功能是实现这种欲望的能力。
So those are pretty separable, and I don't think there are very many good libido-enhancing drugs for men or for women, right?
所以这些是可以分开的，我不认为有很多好的男性或女性的性欲增强药物，对吧？
We talked about this drug, Vyleesi, that is helpful and seems to have a positive effect, but there's certainly a big dearth out there of drugs that would enhance libido.
我们谈到了这种药物 Vyleesi，它很有帮助，而且似乎具有积极的作用，但确实非常缺乏可以增强性欲的药物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So is anyone-
任何人也是如此——
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Or inhibit libido, for that matter.
或者就此而言，抑制性欲。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
I think when people think about drugs that inhibit libido, it's naturally occurring experiments like opioid use does that, excessive alcohol intake.
我认为，当人们想到抑制性欲的药物时，这是自然发生的实验，例如使用阿片类药物、过量饮酒等。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Anything that diminishes dopaminergic function will do that.
任何削弱多巴胺能功能的东西都会起到这样的作用。
So after you made this discovery, did people approach you about developing a drug to enhance libido in men and/or women?
那么，在您做出这一发现之后，是否有人向您寻求开发一种增强男性和/或女性性欲的药物？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yeah.
是的。
A mutual friend of ours, Mike Eisenberg at Stanford.
我们共同的朋友，斯坦福大学的迈克·艾森伯格。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
He was a guest on this podcast, our head of male sexual health and urology.
他是这个播客的嘉宾，我们的男性性健康和泌尿科负责人。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
He approached me, and he says, "Can we do something about this target?" And I said, "There's no agonist, there's no drug that would activate the Tachyon one receptor that we know about that's clinically proven to be safe.
他找到我，说道：“我们能针对这个目标做点什么吗？”我说，“没有激动剂，没有药物可以激活我们所知的经临床证明是安全的快子一受体。
There is an antagonist for it that's FDA approved, that's used for other purposes."
它有一种 FDA 批准的拮抗剂，可用于其他目的。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But that would diminish libido.
但这会削弱性欲。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That would diminish libido.
这会降低性欲。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But did Mike approach you because he has a lot of patients that have diminished libido who want to enhance libido?
但是迈克来找你是因为他有很多性欲减退的患者想要增强性欲吗？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
That's exactly right.
完全正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Why do you think there's such a dearth of drugs to enhance libido?
您认为为什么增强性欲的药物如此缺乏？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
I think for a long time, pharmaceutical companies have stayed away from drugs that act on the CNS because back in the '90s, there were a lot of studies developing drugs to sort of enhance different functions of the brain, and there are always some off-target effects.
我认为很长一段时间以来，制药公司一直远离作用于中枢神经系统的药物，因为早在上世纪九十年代，就有很多研究开发药物来增强大脑的不同功能，但总会有一些脱靶效应。
So companies have typically stayed away from those.
因此，公司通常会远离这些。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not SSRIs.
不是 SSRI。
I mean, SSRIs were a boom industry until recently when everybody kind of turned on them.
我的意思是，直到最近，SSRIs 一直是一个蓬勃发展的行业，当时每个人都对它们产生了兴趣。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I say this every time SSRIs come up, yes, they can have pronounced side effects.
每次提到 SSRI 时我都会这么说，是的，它们可能会产生明显的副作用。
No, I don't think they are always the solution.
不，我不认为它们总是解决方案。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Including decreasing libido.
包括性欲下降。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Including decreasing libido.
包括性欲下降。
For certain populations of people who have a clinically diagnosed OCD, SSRIs have been very helpful.
对于某些临床诊断为强迫症的人群来说，SSRIs 非常有帮助。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So we don't want to completely-
所以我们不想完全-
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
No, that's right.
不，没错。
I'm just saying that's why there's a general dearth of many, many drugs being developed for different conditions that affect different functions.
我只是说，这就是为什么针对影响不同功能的不同条件而开发的药物普遍缺乏的原因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So drug companies don't want to make drugs that act on the brain?
那么制药公司不想生产作用于大脑的药物吗？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
I think now there's a change, right, with GLP-1, with the GLP agonists coming out.
我认为现在有一个变化，对吧，随着 GLP-1 的出现，GLP 激动剂的出现。
There's a huge interest suddenly.
突然产生了巨大的兴趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which drug?
哪种药？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Wegovy and Ozempic.
Wegovy 和 Ozempic。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, what, for people to lose body fat?
哦，什么，让人减掉体内脂肪？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
But those act on the brain as well, right?
但这些也会作用于大脑，对吗？
So there's now a sudden surge in interest again in developing agonists, if you will, or antagonists to modulate different pathways in the brain, because this is a huge success story.
因此，现在人们对开发激动剂（如果你愿意的话）或拮抗剂来调节大脑中不同通路的兴趣再次突然激增，因为这是一个巨大的成功故事。
So now people are energized again, I think.
所以我认为现在人们又充满了活力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, and if nothing else, those drugs prove that one of the main reasons, perhaps the main reason why so many people are overweight or obese is that they eat more than they burn.
好吧，如果不出意外的话，这些药物证明了这么多人超重或肥胖的主要原因之一，也许是他们吃的东西比燃烧的东西多。
People debated that until very recently.
直到最近人们还在争论这个问题。
Now hardly anyone debates that, and people will say, "Oh, well, you need to think about blood sugar regulation," but when it comes down to it, you need to ingest roughly less than you burn.
现在几乎没有人争论这一点，人们会说，“哦，好吧，你需要考虑血糖调节”，但归根结底，你需要摄入的量大约少于燃烧的量。
There's some noise there, but it's clear that that set of experiments, the Gila monster that doesn't eat very much, which makes a peptide, which then is turned into a drug, makes people not eat as much.
那里有一些噪音，但很明显，那组实验，吃得不多的吉拉毒蜥，会产生一种肽，然后将其转化为药物，使人们吃得不多。
Boom, you have a trillion-dollar industry.
繁荣，你拥有一个万亿美元的产业。
So here you have a discovery where you discover an animal that when these neurons are stimulated, has kind of an insatiable libido.
所以在这里你有一个发现，你发现一种动物，当这些神经元受到刺激时，有一种永不满足的性欲。
So it seems that the appropriate dose of a drug that targets the tachykinin one neurons might make a reasonable drugable target.
因此，针对速激肽一神经元的药物的适当剂量似乎可能成为合理的药物靶点。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
I would think so, yeah.
我想是的，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, someone listening to this will take interest.
好吧，听到这个的人会感兴趣。
What does it take to go from a desire to make a drug like that to a drug that can go into humans?
从制造这样一种药物的愿望变成一种可以用于人体的药物需要什么？
First, you go preclinical testing, obviously.
显然，首先要进行临床前测试。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
First, you actually make sure that the circuit exists, that those same neurons in the human brain express the same receptors.
首先，你实际上要确保回路存在，人脑中的那些相同的神经元表达相同的受体。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, that's easy to do nowadays, right?
嗯，现在这很容易做到，对吧？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's easy to do nowadays.
如今这很容易做到。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's some brain banks.
有一些大脑库。
You take some brain sections from some deceased people who've said it's okay with them, and you do the mRNA in C24.
你从一些已故的人身上取出一些大脑切片，他们表示自己没事，然后你在 C24 中进行 mRNA 分析。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
It's pretty straightforward, yeah.
这非常简单，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
All right, so the neurons are there, and then you do what?
好吧，神经元就在那里，然后你做什么？
Dose response curves in mice?
小鼠剂量反应曲线？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
Right, and you go into preclinical trials and ask, is there other agonists you can develop that are safe, that have the desired effects with minimal off-target effects?
是的，您进入临床前试验并询问，是否可以开发其他安全的激动剂，这些激动剂具有所需的效果且脱靶效应最小？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I promise you that just by virtue of this discussion, somebody someplace, and I'm not recommending this, is going to develop or acquire a tachykinin peptide and inject that peptide.
我向您保证，仅仅通过这次讨论，某个地方的某个人（我不推荐这样做）将开发或获得速激肽并注射该肽。
The reason I say that is that these GLP agonists that many people are now using were used for many years in the fitness industry by people who would read a couple of papers based on animal models and be willing to acquire or develop the peptide and inject the peptide.
我这么说的原因是，现在很多人使用的这些 GLP 激动剂在健身行业已经使用了很多年，人们会阅读几篇基于动物模型的论文，并愿意获取或开发肽并注射肽。
Not something I recommend, but you can be absolutely sure-
我不推荐，但你可以绝对确定-
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Okay
好的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that someone will try this.
有人会尝试这个。
The reason I say that is that there's a peptide in the hypothalamus called kisspeptin-
我这么说的原因是下丘脑中有一种肽，叫做 Kisspeptin——
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I think, which regulates puberty.
我认为，它调节青春期。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there is a subculture of people that take kisspeptin as a peptide, as a libido enhancer.
还有一种亚文化将 Kisspeptin 视为一种肽，作为一种性欲增强剂。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I can't avoid asking because we're on the topic, but do we know what switches on puberty?
我无法避免问，因为我们正在谈论这个话题，但我们知道是什么开启了青春期吗？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Kisspeptin's certainly important, right?
Kisspeptin 当然很重要，对吧？
So the mutations of the receptor for kisspeptin seem to block puberty in humans-
因此 Kisspeptin 受体的突变似乎会阻碍人类的青春期——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm
嗯
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
...
...
and in mice as well.
在老鼠身上也是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So there are people that never undergo puberty?
那么有些人从未经历过青春期吗？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
And it's a mutation in kisspeptin?
这是 Kisspeptin 的突变？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Receptor.
受体。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do they grow in size despite not being sexually able to create kids?
尽管它们无法通过性行为生育孩子，但它们的体型还会增长吗？
What happens?
会发生什么？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
I think if you don't undergo puberty, then you are not going to make the sex hormones that you'd normally make, so you don't get the boost in testosterone or estrogen or progesterone.
我认为，如果你没有经历青春期，那么你就不会产生正常情况下产生的性激素，因此你的睾酮、雌激素或黄体酮不会增加。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So this is where gene therapy is going to be a huge boon to medicine.
因此，这就是基因疗法将为医学带来巨大福音的地方。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm curious about the regulation of brain function, changes in brain circuitry as female hormones change during, say, the menstrual cycle.
我很好奇大脑功能的调节，以及女性荷尔蒙在月经周期中变化时大脑回路的变化。
What is known about that?
对此有何了解？
How different is the brain at one stage of the cycle versus another?
大脑在周期的一个阶段与另一阶段有何不同？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Okay.
好的。
Stepping back, in rodents, where a lot of this work has been done, we know that the estrous cycle is not, rats or mice don't menstruate, but they still have the ovulatory cycle.
退一步来说，在啮齿类动物中，我们已经做了很多这样的工作，我们知道发情周期不是，大鼠或小鼠没有月经，但它们仍然有排卵周期。
They ovulate once every four to five days, and their hormones, estrogen and progesterone, do change correspondingly, just like they would in non-human primates or in women.
它们每四到五天排卵一次，它们的激素、雌激素和黄体酮确实会发生相应的变化，就像非人类灵长类动物或女性一样。
So you have the same hormonal cycle, roughly, and you have the periodic ovulation.
所以，你们的荷尔蒙周期大致相同，并且有周期性的排卵。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's just compressed into five days.
所以就压缩为五天。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Into five days.
进入五天。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
And in rats, it's been known for a while, for about 20, 30 years now, that there are very specific sets of neurons that are responsive to estrogen That change the number of dendritic spines.
在老鼠身上，人们已经知道有一段时间了，大约 20、30 年了，有一组非常特殊的神经元对雌激素有反应，可以改变树突棘的数量。
So these are processes on neurons that receive information from other neurons.
这些是神经元上从其他神经元接收信息的过程。
As we know, neurons act in circuits, so neurons are listening to neurons upstream of them and then transmitting information to other neurons downstream of them.
众所周知，神经元在电路中起作用，因此神经元会监听它们上游的神经元，然后将信息传输到它们下游的其他神经元。
So some of these connections, the presynaptic connections that are receiving information from other neurons, those spines seem to increase or wax and wane across the estrous cycle.
因此，其中一些连接，即从其他神经元接收信息的突触前连接，这些棘似乎在整个动情周期中增加或减弱。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
And we showed in a different finding more recently, that when they are transmitting information downstream to other neurons, those pathways also change pretty dramatically.
我们最近的另一个发现表明，当它们向下游其他神经元传递信息时，这些通路也会发生相当大的变化。
We saw about a threefold increase or decrease every five days in the adult female brain of the circuit.
我们发现成年女性大脑的回路每五天就会增加或减少三倍。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
That's huge.
那是巨大的。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's huge.
那是巨大的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
And this seemed to be functionally relevant because when the circuit was fully on or was fully mature, when she was ovulating, if we inhibited this pathway, she stopped mating.
这似乎与功能相关，因为当电路完全开启或完全成熟时，当她排卵时，如果我们抑制这条通路，她就会停止交配。
And going back to an earlier part of the discussion, this circuit seems to be very dimorphic.
回到讨论的前面部分，这个电路似乎非常二态。
This pathway essentially doesn't exist in the male brain.
男性大脑中基本上不存在这条通路。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which makes sense.
这是有道理的。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Which makes sense.
这是有道理的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They don't ovulate.
他们不排卵。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Are there hormonal fluctuations in males across the day or the week?
男性的荷尔蒙在一天或一周内是否有波动？
We assume that testosterone is highest in the morning.
我们假设睾丸激素在早上最高。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
My read of the literature is that there's a subset of men for which testosterone is actually higher in the afternoon, but in most men, it's going to be highest in the morning.
我读到的文献是，有一部分男性的睾酮水平实际上在下午更高，但对于大多数男性来说，早上的水平最高。
But we don't think of hormones as fluctuating in men very much.
但我们不认为男性的荷尔蒙波动很大。
Cortisol, yes, but testosterone, not so much.
皮质醇，是的，但睾丸激素，不是那么多。
Is there any evidence of hormonal fluctuations in males that are meaningful, or is it just pretty much a flat line?
是否有任何证据表明男性荷尔蒙波动是有意义的，或者它只是一条平坦的线？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
In the experiments that we've done in mice, it doesn't seem to be the case.
在我们对老鼠进行的实验中，情况似乎并非如此。
So you can just give testosterone to a male mouse.
所以你可以直接给雄性老鼠注射睾酮。
If you've castrated him, you can basically inject it at any given time of day, and it'll have the same effect.
如果你已经阉割了他，你基本上可以在一天中的任何特定时间注射它，并且会产生相同的效果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
But in females, if you give estrogen and progesterone, it has to be at a very specific time point for you to see the effects of that hormone.
但对于女性来说，如果您给予雌激素和黄体酮，则必须在一个非常特定的时间点才能看到该激素的效果。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So during the menstrual cycle, it sounds like there's profound changes in neural circuitry in the female brain.
因此，在月经周期期间，女性大脑的神经回路似乎发生了深刻的变化。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
So it's very dynamic.
所以它非常有活力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Circuits are growing, circuits are disappearing.
电路在增长，电路在消失。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
And people have seen in women also, women on the pill, for example, or not on the pill, across the menstrual cycle, you do see changes in MRI imaging in women as well.
人们也看到了女性，例如服用避孕药或未服用避孕药的女性，在整个月经周期中，您也确实看到女性 MRI 成像的变化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what's known about that in terms of blocking ovulation with oral contraception?
那么，对于口服避孕药阻止排卵的了解有哪些呢？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
No, so I think what I'm just saying is that the brain seems to be also dynamic as visualized by imaging in women.
不，所以我想我只是想说的是，正如女性成像所显示的那样，大脑似乎也是动态的。
So it's not just a rodent sort of phenomenon.
所以这不仅仅是啮齿类动物的现象。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
It seems to be there's dynamic processes going on in humans as well across the menstrual cycle.
人类的整个月经周期似乎都在发生动态过程。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What about during pregnancy?
怀孕期间怎么办？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
We don't know.
我们不知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We don't know?
我们不知道吗？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
There are a couple of reports that say there are circuits that are changing in the mouse brain when she's pregnant, when mice are pregnant.
有几份报告称，当小鼠怀孕时，小鼠大脑中的回路会发生变化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hippocampus grows.
海马体生长。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
I don't know that.
我不知道。
Maybe you do.
也许你会。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I recall there was a guy who did a sabbatical in our colleague Li-Huei Tan Low's lab.
我记得有一个人在我们同事 Li-Huei Tan Low 的实验室休假。
I forget now.
我现在忘记了。
He was from Larry Katz's lab.
他来自拉里·卡茨的实验室。
Olfactory guy.
嗅觉家伙。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Adi Mizrahi.
阿迪·米兹拉希。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Adi Mizrahi.
阿迪·米兹拉希。
That's right.
这是正确的。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
He showed the circuit in the auditory cortex changes, I think, in mothers, so they're more attuned to pup vocalizations.
我认为，他展示了母亲听觉皮层变化的电路，因此它们更适合幼崽的发声。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's right.
没错。
Their auditory cortex changed so they could hear their pups better, and that's-
它们的听觉皮层发生了变化，这样它们就能更好地听到幼崽的声音，那就是——
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's in the mother, so yeah.
那是在母亲身上，所以是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That wasn't during pregnancy.
那不是怀孕期间。
That was in-
那是在——
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
The study might have started in pregnancy, but I'm pretty sure the experiments, the assays, were done when she was nursing.
这项研究可能是在怀孕时开始的，但我很确定实验和分析是在她哺乳时完成的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I definitely need more science on how the brain changes during pregnancy, how the mother's brain changes during pregnancy.
我确实需要更多关于怀孕期间大脑如何变化、母亲的大脑在怀孕期间如何变化的科学知识。
What about menopause?
更年期怎么办？
These days there is, appropriately I think, increasing attention on perimenopause and menopause as very important stages of human development that have not been entirely ignored, but that were largely ignored for a long time.
我认为，现在人们越来越关注围绝经期和更年期，它们是人类发展的非常重要的阶段，这些阶段并没有完全被忽视，但在很长一段时间内基本上被忽视了。
Now there's a lot of attention about it.
现在对此有很多关注。
What's known in terms of brain circuitry changing during menopause?
更年期期间大脑回路的变化有哪些已知的信息？
Because my understanding is one of the most marked changes hormonally is a reduction in estrogen.
因为我的理解是荷尔蒙最显着的变化之一是雌激素的减少。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
So again, these studies are just being done in mice, just starting to be done in a sort of very careful molecular way in the mouse, and I think the jury's still out, but it's clear that cognitive changes happen with menopause.
再说一遍，这些研究刚刚在小鼠身上进行，刚刚开始以一种非常仔细的分子方式在小鼠身上进行，我认为陪审团还没有定论，但很明显，认知变化会随着更年期而发生。
So the estrogen going down is definitely affecting cognitive performance, and this is sort of reported by women, too, as their mood changing, their appetite changing, and also the steep increase in Alzheimer's incidence in women.
因此，雌激素的下降肯定会影响认知能力，女性也报告了这一点，因为她们的情绪变化、食欲变化，以及女性阿尔茨海默病发病率的急剧增加。
In mice, I think there's going to be a lot of focus on the hippocampus, which is involved in learning and memory, and the frontal cortex, where in the non-aged mouse, female mouse, people have seen these dendritic spines waxing and waning across the estrous cycle.
在小鼠中，我认为人们将重点关注与学习和记忆有关的海马体和额叶皮层，在未衰老的小鼠、雌性小鼠中，人们已经看到这些树突棘在发情周期中不断变化。
So what happens there, and what happens to those circuits and the downstream behaviors is something that's still being investigated.
那么那里发生了什么，以及这些电路和下游行为发生了什么，仍在研究中。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I think we often hear about estrogen, and we think only in terms of ovarian function and ovulation, and that tucks right in with menopause.
是的，我想我们经常听说雌激素，我们只考虑卵巢功能和排卵，而这恰好发生在更年期。
But when we hear about the effect of estrogen in preserving brain function, my understanding is it's also true for men, and that one of the ways that it helps preserve brain function is that it helps keep the blood vessels and capillaries very pliable.
但当我们听说雌激素在保护大脑功能方面的作用时，我的理解是这对男性来说也是如此，它有助于保护大脑功能的方式之一是它有助于保持血管和毛细血管的柔韧性。
It's very good for the cardiovascular system.
这对心血管系统非常有好处。
Do we know if any of the reductions in estrogen that occur during menopause are acting directly on neurons, or is this all downstream of reduced blood flow, for instance?
我们是否知道更年期期间发生的雌激素减少是否直接作用于神经元，或者这都是血流减少的下游？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Yeah, I don't know the answer to that, to be honest.
是的，说实话，我不知道答案。
I suspect it's going to be both.
我怀疑两者都会。
There's certainly going to be direct effects on neurons because neurons express the receptor for estrogen.
这肯定会对神经元产生直接影响，因为神经元表达雌激素受体。
Many neurons, not all, express receptors for estrogen, so estrogen going down is certainly going to affect their function.
许多神经元（并非全部）表达雌激素受体，因此雌激素下降肯定会影响它们的功能。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Every MD that I've had on this podcast who has a specialization in endocrine stuff will say the goal is to keep your estrogen as high as possible without running into side effects.
我在这个播客上遇到的每一位专门研究内分泌的医学博士都会说，我们的目标是在不产生副作用的情况下保持尽可能高的雌激素水平。
That's good for your brain.
这对你的大脑有好处。
So, and that when people quash estrogen or when you get males that have, for instance, very high DHT levels and T levels, and their estrogen is very low It's not a good picture cognitively, certainly not in terms of cognitive longevity.
因此，当人们抑制雌激素时，或者当男性的 DHT 水平和 T 水平非常高，而他们的雌激素水平却很低时，这在认知方面并不是一个好景象，当然在认知寿命方面也不是这样。
So estrogen's pretty interesting, I think, from the standpoint of its effects on the body, but also as a neuroprotective agent.
所以我认为，从雌激素对身体的影响的角度来看，雌激素非常有趣，而且还可以作为一种神经保护剂。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In men and women.
在男性和女性中。
I have all sorts of questions about why that might be.
我对为什么会这样有各种各样的疑问。
I solicited for some questions from the internet.
我从网上征求了一些问题。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Always a dangerous thing to do, but a lot of fun.
做这件事总是很危险，但也很有趣。
And so I'll ask you some of the more frequent questions.
所以我会问你一些更常见的问题。
Feel free to pass on any of these if you don't feel like you have an answer or want to answer.
如果您觉得自己没有答案或不想回答，请随意传递这些内容。
One was whether or not men's hormones cycle throughout the day, and we talked about an early morning peak in testosterone, which by the way is very correlated with the amount of REM sleep that people get.
其中之一是男性荷尔蒙是否在一天中循环，我们讨论了睾酮激素在清晨的峰值，顺便说一句，这与人们获得的快速眼动睡眠时间非常相关。
Seems like if you don't get enough REM sleep, that might blunt some of that testosterone increase.
似乎如果您没有获得足够的快速眼动睡眠，可能会削弱睾丸激素的增加。
Okay, here's a speculative question.
好吧，这是一个推测性的问题。
If male and female brains are wired so differently, does that mean they experience reality in fundamentally different ways?
如果男性和女性的大脑连接方式如此不同，这是否意味着他们以根本不同的方式体验现实？
Like maybe we're not at all having the same experience of life.
也许我们根本没有相同的生活经历。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Let me answer that from our studies in the mouse.
让我从我们对老鼠的研究中回答这个问题。
So a fundamental feature of social interactions is the ability to recognize potential mates from potential competitors, recognize sex of other individuals, female, male.
因此，社交互动的一个基本特征是能够从潜在的竞争对手中识别出潜在的伴侣，识别其他个体的性别（女性、男性）。
We do that subconsciously.
我们下意识地这样做。
You walk into a bar, you're subconsciously processing female, male, female, male.
你走进一家酒吧，你会下意识地处理女性、男性、女性、男性。
We all do that automatically.
我们都会自动这样做。
Mice also seem to do that.
老鼠似乎也会这样做。
And we identified a region of the brain, a set of neurons of the brain, that if you record from these cells, you and I, if you're just looking at the activity of these cells, we can say he's thinking that's a female or a male.
我们确定了大脑的一个区域，大脑的一组神经元，如果你和我记录这些细胞，如果你只是观察这些细胞的活动，我们可以说他认为这是女性或男性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
So there's sex recognition going on in the male mouse brain.
所以雄性小鼠的大脑中正在进行性别识别。
If you record from the same cells in the female brain, those cells seem to be quiescent.
如果你从女性大脑中的相同细胞进行记录，这些细胞似乎是静止的。
So it seems that male mice and female mice are using different circuits for recognizing females and males within their species.
因此，雄性小鼠和雌性小鼠似乎使用不同的电路来识别其物种内的雌性和雄性。
So they're wired differently, and they're recognizing females and males using different pathways.
因此，它们的连接方式不同，并且它们使用不同的途径来识别女性和男性。
So that's, in one sense, having a very different intake of reality, if that makes sense.
所以，从某种意义上说，如果这有意义的话，那么对现实有一种非常不同的理解。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That makes sense.
这是有道理的。
I'm remembering an early discussion that you and I had, meaning many years ago, where for whatever reason, you said exactly what you said here, minus the difference between males and females, where you said as you walk down the street, there's a process happening beneath your conscious awareness, where you're going male, female, male, female, male, female.
我记得你和我的一次早期讨论，意思是很多年前，无论出于什么原因，你所说的正是你在这里所说的，减去男性和女性之间的差异，你说当你走在街上时，有一个过程在你的意识意识下发生，你会变成男性，女性，男性，女性，男性，女性。
You're batching people into these two compartments based on maleness or femaleness, and in the mind, it's just happening.
你根据男性或女性将人们分入这两个隔间，而在头脑中，这只是发生了。
And you said it's because you need to know whether or not someone's a potential mate, or a potential foe, or a potential collaborator.
你说这是因为你需要知道某人是否是潜在的伴侣、潜在的敌人或潜在的合作者。
Based on what you just told us, that females aren't necessarily making the same calculation the same way, I have to speculate a bit.
根据你刚才告诉我们的，女性不一定会以同样的方式进行同样的计算，我必须推测一下。
One, they have to know male versus female, right?
第一，他们必须了解男性和女性，对吗？
Because males could be a threat.
因为男性可能是一种威胁。
Females could be a threat, too, but males are more often a threat to females than other females.
雌性也可能是一种威胁，但雄性比其他雌性更经常对雌性构成威胁。
Females can be a collaborator, a friend, or a threat, maybe a physical threat, but could be a sociological threat.
女性可以是合作者、朋友，也可以是威胁，也许是身体威胁，但也可能是社会威胁。
I've observed this okay.
我观察过这个没问题。
And so it makes sense that one of the most fundamental calculations we make as we move through life is batching people into these different compartments.
因此，我们在生活中所做的最基本的计算之一就是将人们分批放入这些不同的隔间，这是有道理的。
How plastic do you think that process is?
您认为这个过程的可塑性如何？
This sounds like a pretty hardwired thing that is difficult to get people's minds around.
这听起来像是一个非常根深蒂固的事情，很难让人们理解。
Now it would never air, but in the old Saturday Night Live, they had this character Pat, which was supposed to be neither male nor female, or you weren't supposed to be clear on what Pat was, and that was the whole basis of the skit.
现在它永远不会播出了，但在旧的《周六夜现场》中，他们有这个角色帕特，这个角色应该既不是男性也不是女性，或者你不应该清楚帕特是什么，这就是这个短剧的全部基础。
That was the whole basis of the character that was a repeated character on Saturday Night Live.
这就是《周六夜现场》中重复出现的角色的全部基础。
I don't think they're going to reintroduce Pat.
我不认为他们会重新介绍帕特。
But that character was an interesting experiment at the time because it introduced this kind of circuit confusion where people didn't quite know where to place Pat.
但这个角色在当时是一个有趣的实验，因为它引入了这种电路混乱，人们不太知道将帕特放在哪里。
The whole basis of the script for it was exactly that.
剧本的整个基础正是如此。
So how do you think about these things?
那么您如何看待这些事情呢？
Most circuits in the brain are push-pull.
大脑中的大多数电路都是推挽式的。
They're binary.
它们是二元的。
Mate or fight, right?
交配还是战斗，对吧？
Eat or don't eat.
吃或不吃。
There isn't a whole lot of middle ground.
没有太多的中间立场。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
I think it is more nuanced.
我认为这更加微妙。
It is female, male, but as you pointed out, in humans, you're going to say, okay, potential mate, potential foe, collaborator, friend, unknown person.
它是女性，男性，但正如你所指出的，在人类中，你会说，好吧，潜在的伴侣，潜在的敌人，合作者，朋友，未知的人。
So there are other recognitive pathways feeding into your initial binary classification of female or male.
因此，还有其他认知途径可以影响您最初对女性或男性的二元分类。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
So it's not a simple go, no-go decision in humans.
所以这对于人类来说并不是一个简单的去或不去的决定。
In the mouse world, it's simpler, at least in the assays that we design.
在小鼠世界中，它更简单，至少在我们设计的检测中是这样。
So in the instance I was telling you about, if you take the male mouse, the sex recognition happens in the first five to 10 seconds.
所以在我告诉你的例子中，如果你拿雄性老鼠，性别识别会在前 5 到 10 秒内发生。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just like in humans.
就像人类一样。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Just like in humans.
就像人类一样。
It just instantly knows.
它只是立即知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you can make the distinction, your brain makes it automatically.
如果你能区分，你的大脑会自动做出区分。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
So first five to 10 seconds, right?
那么前 5 到 10 秒，对吧？
And that signal of female or male persists for about 90 seconds, and it's much larger if he's seeing a female than a male.
这种女性或男性的信号会持续大约 90 秒，如果他看到的是女性，那么信号会比男性的信号要大得多。
So if we artificially optogenetically activate these cells in the male brain, only for 90 seconds, and then give him a male, for the next 15 to 20 minutes, he thinks it's a female, and he'll try and mate with him.
因此，如果我们人工光遗传学激活雄性大脑中的这些细胞，仅持续 90 秒，然后给他一只雄性，在接下来的 15 到 20 分钟内，他会认为这是一只雌性，并且会尝试与它交配。
So that recognitive process has induced a state in the male that says It's a female.
因此，这种认知过程导致了雄性的一种状态：“这是雌性”。
Although the sensory input that's coming in, the pheromones that are coming in, the size, the way the animal's walking around, all screams male.
尽管传入的感官输入、传入的信息素、体型、动物行走的方式，全都是雄性的尖叫声。
He thinks it's a female, he tries to mate with it.
他认为这是一只雌性，他试图与它交配。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So he's different even though the outside world isn't.
所以他是不同的，尽管外面的世界并非如此。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
And if we inactivate these cells, if we silence these cells, or if we kill the cells, and again, we're talking of maybe 2,000 cells.
如果我们灭活这些细胞，如果我们沉默这些细胞，或者如果我们杀死这些细胞，那么我们谈论的可能是 2,000 个细胞。
If we kill the cells, he cannot recognize females from males.
如果我们杀死这些细胞，他就无法识别雌性和雄性。
Typically, he prefers the smell of a female.
通常，他更喜欢女性的气味。
That preference is gone.
这种偏好已经消失了。
And because he can't say that's a male or a female, he neither mates with females nor attacks other males.
因为他不能说那是雄性还是雌性，所以他既不与雌性交配，也不攻击其他雄性。
He will interact with them, he'll hang out with them, he'll be pretty chill.
他会和他们互动，和他们一起出去玩，他会很冷静。
He simply won't mate or fight with them.
他根本不会与它们交配或打斗。
Right?
正确的？
So that says that there are some hardwired things in the mouse brain at least, where you can sort of convert those with experiments into yes, go, no-go signals.
也就是说，小鼠大脑中至少有一些硬连线的东西，你可以通过实验将这些东西转换成是、走、不走的信号。
But I imagine if you set up more complicated assays where if the other male's a sibling, then you won't attack the male, but you won't mate with him either.
但我想如果你设置更复杂的检测，如果另一个雄性是兄弟姐妹，那么你就不会攻击雄性，但你也不会与他交配。
As long as we don't sort of touch the neurons.
只要我们不触及神经元。
Right.
正确的。
So right now, we're just trying to understand the basic decisions these cells are making, the basic set of information they're processing, and that seems to be go, no-go, mate, don't mate, fight.
所以现在，我们只是想了解这些细胞正在做出的基本决定，它们正在处理的基本信息集，这似乎是去，不去，交配，不交配，战斗。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It seems you want context to matter, but not when survival and reproduction are critical.
看来你希望环境很重要，但当生存和繁殖至关重要时就不那么重要了。
I like watching nature shows for a variety of reasons, but there's an incredible one where these hyenas are attacking a lion, and they're trying to rip off its testicles.
我喜欢看自然表演的原因有很多，但有一个令人难以置信的表演，这些鬣狗正在攻击狮子，并试图扯下它的睾丸。
It's a pretty convenient way to limit lion numbers, as long as they're going to kill this lion and eat it.
这是限制狮子数量的一个非常方便的方法，只要他们要杀死这只狮子并吃掉它。
But even if they don't succeed in that, they try and castrate the animal.
但即使他们没有成功，他们也会尝试阉割动物。
And another male lion shows up, and it's really interesting because typically those lions would fight.
另一只雄狮出现了，这真的很有趣，因为通常这些狮子会打架。
But in this case, the second male lion is willing to risk his fertility and his life in order to protect the other.
但在这种情况下，第二只雄狮愿意冒着自己的生育能力和生命危险来保护另一只。
So there's this higher order calling, right?
所以有这个更高阶的调用，对吧？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's like suddenly he has a mission that overrides his desire to be the dominant lion, and it's just about preserving lions more generally.
就好像他突然有了一个使命，超越了他成为主导狮子的愿望，而这只是为了更广泛地保护狮子。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Pretty incredible that as unsophisticated as a lion brain may be, it's able to just completely switch over.
令人难以置信的是，尽管狮子的大脑可能很简单，但它却能够完全切换。
And I raise this because what you're describing and what this nature show reveals is that it's almost like hormones activate circuits, activate repertoires of behaviors.
我提出这个问题是因为你所描述的以及这个自然展示所揭示的是，它几乎就像激素激活回路，激活一系列行为。
That we're sort of a repertoire machine as opposed to just having switches in the brain, which is how we were talking about them earlier.
我们有点像一台保留曲目的机器，而不仅仅是大脑中的开关，这就是我们之前谈论它们的方式。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's tempting to think about them as switches, but the context really matters.
人们很容易将它们视为开关，但上下文确实很重要。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Context matters, and people have, Tinbergen, for example, has proposed that there's a hierarchy of behaviors, right?
背景很重要，人们也很重要，例如廷伯根就提出了行为的层次结构，对吧？
So you have mating, aggression, protection of young, or defense from predation.
所以你有交配、攻击、保护幼崽或防御捕食。
So all of those have nested regulatory structures, one imagines.
因此，人们可以想象，所有这些都有嵌套的监管结构。
As you pointed out with this lion, that if you have a different context, then a different set of behaviors is activated.
正如您对这只狮子指出的那样，如果您有不同的背景，则会激活一组不同的行为。
And the same thing's true for even aggression, right?
即使是侵略也是如此，对吧？
If you take these VMH cells that we've talked about before, if you activate them, the animals will attack other males, or females for that matter, or a glove for that matter.
如果你使用我们之前讨论过的这些 VMH 细胞，如果你激活它们，动物就会攻击其他雄性或雌性，或者一只手套。
But if you change the context that the animal's in, your experimental animal's in, and you activate these cells, he may not attack because, in this case, the context is overriding activation of these cells and telling him, "No, it might be too dangerous, do not attack." So if you put him in another resident's cage, in a different animal's cage, so it's no longer his turf, and you activate the cells, he's much less likely to attack now.
但是，如果你改变动物所处的环境，你的实验动物所处的环境，并且你激活这些细胞，他可能不会攻击，因为在这种情况下，环境会压倒这些细胞的激活并告诉他，“不，这可能太危险了，不要攻击。”因此，如果你把他放在另一个居民的笼子里，在不同的动物的笼子里，那么这不再是他的地盘，并且你激活了细胞，他现在攻击的可能性就会小得多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then there are these experiments that females will kill the offspring of other females.
还有一些实验表明雌性会杀死其他雌性的后代。
Females will kill the offspring of other females.
雌性会杀死其他雌性的后代。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
That's right.
没错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Unless certain conditions are met, like they've already had a litter of their own, they've happily raised that litter.
除非满足某些条件，比如他们已经有了自己的一窝孩子，否则他们会很高兴地养育这一窝。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Or they've been hanging out with the other female and her pups for a while.
或者它们已经和另一只雌性以及她的幼崽一起出去玩了一段时间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
It's worth mentioning because I'm not trying to equally distribute violence here, but so often we think about males and violence, but maternal aggression is one of the most robust things one will ever observe.
值得一提的是，因为我并不是想在这里平均分配暴力，但我们经常想到男性和暴力，但母亲的攻击性是人们观察到的最强烈的事情之一。
But female-female aggression does exist, and it usually exists in the context of who gets to have and raise successful offspring.
但女性之间的攻击行为确实存在，而且通常存在于谁能拥有并抚养成功的后代的背景下。
That's when you see real nastiness emerge.
那是你看到真正的肮脏出现的时候。
Yeah.
是的。
Which is, in the context of sexual behavior, we're yet to get this guest on here, but there's someone out there that studies female sexual behavior in an interesting way, in somewhat evolutionary terms.
也就是说，在性行为的背景下，我们还没有邀请到这位客人，但是有人以一种有趣的方式，从某种程度上的进化角度研究女性性行为。
But was saying that one of the more pronounced effects that you see is, depending on whether or not someone has had and raised children, how they behave towards other women.
但我想说的是，你看到的更明显的影响之一是，取决于某人是否生育和抚养孩子，他们对其他女性的行为方式。
Or the more salient experiment, and I need to verify this is actually true, that when apparently there's a study where they sort of scale the level of attractiveness of women coming in to get a haircut from another heterosexual woman, and the more attractive a woman is who comes in to get her hair cut, the more hair the female hairstylist cuts off, almost as if there's a competition, and they're trying to actually damage the competition.
或者更重要的实验，我需要验证这确实是真的，当显然有一项研究，他们对前来理发的另一位异性恋女性的女性的吸引力水平进行衡量时，进来理发的女性越有吸引力，女发型师剪掉的头发就越多，几乎就像是在进行一场竞争，他们试图真正破坏竞争。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then other examples where the whole notion of women shaming other women for being promiscuous, the notion being, well, if men can get sex without having to invest much, then that will change the standard of what men expect and will make it less likely that they'll be able to find a safe, happy mate situation to raise kids.
还有其他例子，女性羞辱其他女性乱交的整个观念，这个观念是，如果男人不需要投入太多就能获得性行为，那么这将改变男人的期望标准，并使他们不太可能找到一个安全、快乐的伴侣环境来抚养孩子。
These are the ideas that spin in the background, and you kind of go, "Okay, well, that's a just-so story.
这些是在背景中旋转的想法，你会说，“好吧，好吧，这只是一个故事。
I probably could explain those data five different other ways." But then you hear the animal data, and you go, "Wow, a lot of this is really about extension and preservation of our species.
我可能可以用其他五种不同的方式解释这些数据。”但当你听到动物数据时，你会说：“哇，其中很多实际上是关于我们物种的扩展和保护。
All right, more questions.
好吧，还有更多问题。
This is interesting given our earlier discussion of periaqueductal gray and its involvement in sexual behavior and in pain management.
鉴于我们之前对导水管周围灰质及其与性行为和疼痛管理的参与的讨论，这一点很有趣。
Is there a difference in the way that males and females experience and attempt to relieve pain?
男性和女性体验和尝试缓解疼痛的方式有什么不同吗？
Do we know anything about the interaction between hormones and pain management as it relates to males and females?
我们是否了解男性和女性荷尔蒙与疼痛管理之间的相互作用？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
There are a lot of reports saying that males and females have different pain thresholds, but I think it's been really challenging to dissect out where those differences arise from.
有很多报道称男性和女性有不同的疼痛阈值，但我认为剖析这些差异的根源确实具有挑战性。
That's all I have to say, so I don't know much about this.
我要说的就是这些，所以我对此了解不多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because people will say because of the pain of childbirth, that women have a higher pain threshold, and that's been revealed in some studies, at least to my knowledge.
因为人们会说，由于分娩的疼痛，女性的疼痛阈值更高，一些研究已经揭示了这一点，至少据我所知。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
But that could also be because they're in a different hormonal state.
但这也可能是因为他们处于不同的荷尔蒙状态。
They're having a baby.
他们要生孩子了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A lot of natural endorphins released.
释放大量天然内啡肽。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Presumably, yeah.
大概是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There were a lot of questions about environmental toxins in food, in water.
关于食物和水中的环境毒素存在很多问题。
Some of this gets to the atrazine data from Tyrone Hayes from Berkeley, who years ago said that atrazine present in the water and that frogs were being exposed to was causing an inversion of sexual behavior in these frogs and disrupting sexual differentiation that was taken and run with in a variety of directions, some accurate, some far from accurate.
其中一些来自伯克利分校蒂龙·海耶斯的莠去津数据，他多年前曾表示，水中存在的莠去津以及青蛙接触到的莠去津会导致这些青蛙的性行为倒置，并扰乱性别分化，这种分化的方向多种多样，有些是准确的，有些则远远不准确。
But I think nowadays people are very concerned about endocrine disruptors.
但我认为现在人们非常担心内分泌干扰物。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Especially during pregnancy and in early childhood.
尤其是在怀孕期间和幼儿时期。
And a lot of people are speculating as to whether or not this is one reason that there's a fair amount of discussion about confusion about gender identity and sexual differentiation.
许多人都在猜测这是否是存在大量关于性别认同和性别差异混淆的讨论的原因之一。
What are your thoughts on this?
您对此有何看法？
Is it conceivable that things in food, in the environment, which act as endocrine disruptors, are smearing some of the previously clearer outcomes for human fetuses?
是否可以想象，食物中、环境中的某些物质，作为内分泌干扰物，正在抹掉一些以前对人类胎儿更清晰的结果？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
I think you have to ingest large amounts of these hormones at the right time-
我认为你必须在正确的时间摄入大量这些激素——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
...
...
or these modifiers, these modulators, to have an effect.
或这些修饰剂、这些调节剂，以产生效果。
So I don't know what the kinds of exposures there are.
所以我不知道有哪些类型的暴露。
With plastic bottles and whatnot, maybe, but you'd have to have a large exposure.
也许可以用塑料瓶之类的东西，但你必须有大量的暴露。
That's not to say it doesn't happen.
这并不是说它不会发生。
There might be species in which it's really sensitive, so it could happen.
可能有些物种对此非常敏感，所以它可能会发生。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Here's one thing I know for sure.
这是我确信的一件事。
Our former friend and colleague, Ben Barres, who was born Barbara Barres, was an identical twin, has an identical twin sister that is perfectly happy being a woman.
我们以前的朋友兼同事本·巴雷斯（Ben Barres）原名芭芭拉·巴雷斯（Barbara Barres），是同卵双胞胎，有一个同卵双胞胎妹妹，她非常幸福地成为一名女性。
Ben was definitely not happy being a woman from an early age, switched to being Ben, and for a long time, and I know this because he told me directly, but it's been documented, he claimed that his mother was treated with an anti-miscarriage drug that had androgenic pro-testosterone properties, and he thought that perhaps that had an impact on his gender preference, which is interesting, right?
本从很小的时候起就绝对不高兴作为一个女人，变成了本，很长一段时间，我知道这一点，因为他直接告诉我，但有记录，他声称他的母亲接受了具有雄激素前睾酮特性的抗流产药物治疗，他认为这也许对他的性别偏好产生了影响，这很有趣，对吧？
Because he's speaking to a hormonal influence on gender preference that at least his idea-
因为他谈论的是荷尔蒙对性别偏好的影响，至少他的想法是——
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Gender identity.
性别认同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
And he can't know, but he was an MD and a PhD, and he was thoughtful about the biology of sex differentiation, obviously.
他不知道，但他是医学博士和博士学位，显然他对性别分化的生物学很深思熟虑。
So it's conceivable, right?
所以这是可以想象的，对吗？
He passed away in 2017, so I can't get his thoughts on this now, but he was pretty vocal about the fact that he thought that there were things, that medications and other things that could certainly impact gender identity.
他于 2017 年去世，所以我现在无法了解他对此的想法，但他非常直言不讳地表示，他认为有些东西，药物和其他东西肯定会影响性别认同。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
What you're referring to was a pretty powerful hormonal modulator that he was exposed to, right?
你指的是他接触过的一种非常强大的荷尔蒙调节剂，对吗？
So that is a very different dosage than you might presumably get from these days from environmental plastics with modulators that could impact hormone signaling.
因此，这与您现在可能从含有可能影响激素信号传导的调节剂的环保塑料中获得的剂量截然不同。
That's a pharmacological dose-
这是药理剂量——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
...
...
he was presumably exposed to.
他大概接触过。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
And I think that's a big question nowadays, to what extent these endocrine disruptors are impacting the fetus.
我认为现在这是一个大问题，这些内分泌干扰物在多大程度上影响胎儿。
It has been shown that microplastics are present in the first fecal matter that a baby excretes.
研究表明，婴儿排泄的第一口粪便中存在微塑料。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Whether or not those microplastics are effective endocrine disruptors in the sense that they are causing androgen disruption or estrogen disruption isn't clear.
这些微塑料是否会造成雄激素干扰或雌激素干扰，是否是有效的内分泌干扰物尚不清楚。
Lots to consider.
有很多需要考虑的。
There are so many conflicting data.
有很多相互矛盾的数据。
It's easy to paint a picture where it's all about endocrine disruptors pushing things one way or the other, but our colleague Mike Eisenberg has done studies showing that indeed testosterone levels and sperm counts are dropping, but according to data from his lab, penis sizes are going up.
我们很容易描绘出一幅画面，其中所有的一切都是内分泌干扰物以某种方式推动事情的，但我们的同事迈克·艾森伯格所做的研究表明，睾丸激素水平和精子数量确实在下降，但根据他实验室的数据，阴茎尺寸正在上升。
So, the data don't always fall squarely into a news article type-
因此，数据并不总是完全属于新闻文章类型 -
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
framework.
框架。
And typically, news articles on this stuff pick one or the other side to push for.
通常，有关此问题的新闻文章会选择其中一方来推动。
What do you want to know most going forward about how sex differences in the brain come about?
关于大脑性别差异是如何产生的，您最想知道什么？
What are you most excited about lately?
最近最让你兴奋的事情是什么？
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
There are many questions, right?
有很多问题，对吧？
One is we still don't have the identity of all the different social behaviors that animals engage in, that mice engage in, the innate behaviors, right?
一是我们仍然不了解动物、小鼠、先天行为的所有不同社会行为，对吗？
So what are these circuits?
那么这些电路是什么？
How do they interact with each other?
他们如何相互作用？
So if you're mating, how do you assess threats and stop mating, for example?
那么，如果你正在交配，你如何评估威胁并停止交配？
Right.
对。
So that's one level of question.
这是一个层面的问题。
What are the circuits, and how do they interact with each other?
电路是什么？它们如何相互作用？
At the same time, how are they interacting with higher order circuits that let you navigate, let you make decisions?
与此同时，它们如何与让你导航、做出决策的高阶电路相互作用？
What is the interaction between cortical cells and hypothalamic cells?
皮质细胞和下丘脑细胞之间有什么相互作用？
So that's a big question, I think.
我认为这是一个大问题。
The other is this plasticity, this adult dynamic circuit feature that we and others have run into in the female brain.
另一个是这种可塑性，我们和其他人在女性大脑中遇到的这种成人动态电路特征。
How widespread is it in the brain?
它在大脑中的分布有多广泛？
Do males also have such dynamic plasticity in the adult animal?
雄性在成年动物中也有这样的动态可塑性吗？
We don't know.
我们不知道。
And if so, what are the conditions in which the male brain rewires?
如果是这样，男性大脑在什么条件下会重新连接？
And females undergo different, as we've talked about, undergo many different life stages that are pretty unique to females.
正如我们所讨论的，女性经历了不同的人生阶段，这些阶段对于女性来说是非常独特的。
Lactation's one of them, menopause is another, pregnancy is another, ovulation's another.
哺乳期是其中之一，更年期是另一个，怀孕是另一个，排卵是另一个。
So how are these circuits different across these stages compared to, say, the female who's not gone through any of those yet?
那么，与尚未经历过任何阶段的女性相比，这些阶段的回路有何不同？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Those are very interesting questions, especially given the divergence of life choices that you see out there now.
这些都是非常有趣的问题，特别是考虑到你现在看到的生活选择的差异。
Not everyone is getting married, having kids, and doing that.
并不是每个人都会结婚、生子，并这样做。
Many people still are, but my understanding is birth rates are going way down.
许多人仍然如此，但我的理解是出生率正在大幅下降。
So certainly, some people are opting out or for whatever reason, aren't having kids.
所以当然，有些人选择退出或出于某种原因不生孩子。
Nirao, thank you so much for coming here today, for sharing with us all your incredible knowledge and experiments.
Nirao，非常感谢您今天来到这里，与我们分享您所有令人难以置信的知识和实验。
For me, it was especially gratifying because I think these topics are not just timely, but it's fundamental to who we are.
对我来说，这尤其令人欣慰，因为我认为这些主题不仅是及时的，而且是我们的根本。
As you pointed out, perhaps one of the most important distinctions that we make in life is determining who we are and who others are, and the male-female distinction is a critical one that arises at least as early as conception in terms of the chromosomes are involved, and then the hormones are acting on that, of course.
正如您所指出的，也许我们在生活中做出的最重要的区别之一就是决定我们是谁以及其他人是谁，而男性和女性的区别是一个关键的区别，它至少在染色体参与的受孕时就出现了，当然，然后激素就会对此起作用。
So I want to thank you for the work you're doing.
所以我要感谢你所做的工作。
You do really hard experiments.
你做了非常艰苦的实验。
You do beautiful experiments.
你做了漂亮的实验。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're super clean.
他们超级干净。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you get really incredible outcomes, which you shared with us today.
你会得到非常令人难以置信的结果，正如你今天与我们分享的那样。
And it's also wonderful that you took the time to be a public educator, come here and share with us on this set of not trivial topics when it comes to navigating the landscape of sex and gender and hormones and all this stuff.
同样令人高兴的是，您花时间成为一名公共教育者，来到这里与我们分享这一系列不平凡的话题，涉及到性、性别、荷尔蒙以及所有这些东西的领域。
So you're brave, and we appreciate your bravery and then the way you approach these questions.
所以你很勇敢，我们感谢你的勇敢以及你处理这些问题的方式。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Thanks, Andrew.
谢谢，安德鲁。
It's a pleasure being here.
很高兴来到这里。
Thanks for having me on the show.
谢谢你邀请我参加节目。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, we'll have you back again, and thanks for also being a bulldog owner.
好吧，我们会再次邀请您回来，感谢您也成为斗牛犬的主人。
I love that you-
我爱你-
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Next time I'll bring Cooper
下次我会带库珀来
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that you got Cooper, and next time bring him.
你找到了库珀，下次带他来。
He's an amazing French bulldog, and just makes me appreciate you that much more.
他是一只很棒的法国斗牛犬，这让我更加欣赏你。
Dr. Nirao Shah:
尼劳·沙阿博士：
Thank you, Andrew.
谢谢你，安德鲁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Nirao Shah.
感谢您参加今天与 Nirao Shah 博士的讨论。
To learn more about his work, please see the links in the show note captions.
要了解有关他的作品的更多信息，请参阅演出注释标题中的链接。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的关注按钮来关注播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。
And you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.
您现在可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab Podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客、嘉宾或您希望我考虑在 Huberman 实验室播客中讨论的主题有意见，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这本书是我花了五年多时间编写的，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验。
And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
它涵盖了从睡眠到运动再到压力控制的所有协议，以及与注意力和动机相关的协议，当然，我为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There you can find links to various vendors.
在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." And if you're not already following me on social media, I am hubermanlab on all social media platforms, so that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 hubermanlab，包括 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab Podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab Podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。
Again, it's hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
再说一遍，所有社交媒体平台上都是 hubermanlab。
And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.
我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。
All of that is available completely zero cost.
所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the Menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter, and enter your email.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的“菜单”选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件即可。
And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Nirao Shah.
再次感谢您参加今天与 Nirao Shah 博士的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
You want to impress them on a first date, but also play it cool.
你想在第一次约会时给他们留下深刻的印象，但也要表现得冷静。
So what do you do?
那么你做什么呢？
I'm Ruthie Thorpe, and I wrote and read a real love story about a Hinge couple that navigated exactly that.
我是露丝·索普（Ruthie Thorpe），我写过并读过一个关于一对铰链夫妇的真实爱情故事，正是这样的故事。
Listen to the free audiobook now.
立即收听免费有声读物。