Josh Waitzkin: The Art of Learning & Living Life
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Josh Waitzkin.
今天我的嘉宾是乔什·维茨金。
Josh Waitzkin is a former child prodigy who began playing the game of chess at six years old, and by the time he was 16 years old, had become a national champion many times over, as well as an international champion.
乔什·维茨金（Josh Waitzkin）是一位前神童，他从六岁开始下棋，到 16 岁时，已经多次成为全国冠军和国际冠军。
In fact, he achieved the level of International Master, which is one of the highest levels of achievement in the game of chess for anyone of any age.
事实上，他达到了国际大师的水平，这是任何年龄段的国际象棋比赛中的最高成就之一。
His early life achievements were the topic and focus of the book and movie, "Searching for Bobby Fischer." He then quit playing the game of chess and moved on to martial arts, the study of philosophy at Columbia University in New York, and eventually foiling, which is essentially surfing over the water.
他早年的成就是书籍和电影《寻找鲍比·费舍尔》的主题和焦点。然后，他放弃了国际象棋比赛，转而学习武术，在纽约哥伦比亚大学学习哲学，并最终学习了花剑，本质上是在水面上冲浪。
Josh is not only a high performer, he has now become perhaps the most sought-after professional coach in the domains of finance, in the domains of creative endeavors, professional sports, and military.
乔什不仅是一名出色的球员，他现在可能已经成为金融、创意、职业体育和军事领域最受欢迎的专业教练。
Today's episode is one of my favorite Huberman Lab podcast episodes ever.
今天的节目是我最喜欢的休伯曼实验室播客节目之一。
I know as a podcast host, you're not supposed to say that, but it's absolutely true.
我知道作为播客主持人，你不应该这么说，但这绝对是真的。
Because not only is Josh Waitzkin so highly accomplished, but he is an exceptional teacher of the learning process.
因为乔什·维茨金 (Josh Waitzkin) 不仅成就卓著，而且还是一位出色的学习过程老师。
He took what he learned in chess and about learning chess and applied that to martial arts, to foiling, et cetera.
他将在国际象棋中学到的知识以及学习国际象棋的知识运用到武术、挫败等方面。
And from participating in all those endeavors, he was able to distill out the essential elements of learning and how to tailor one's learning process to one's own unique personality and style, flaws, and tendency to make mistakes, and how to leverage all of that in order to be able to learn better.
通过参与所有这些努力，他能够提炼出学习的基本要素，以及如何根据自己独特的个性和风格、缺陷和犯错误的倾向来定制学习过程，以及如何利用所有这些以便能够更好地学习。
In fact, throughout today's episode, I promise that you will constantly be reflecting on where you experience things like tension and fear, both in your personal life, your professional life, your educational life.
事实上，在今天的节目中，我保证你会不断反思你在个人生活、职业生活和教育生活中经历过的紧张和恐惧之类的事情。
Whatever it is that you're trying to learn and pursue in life, today's conversation, thanks to Josh, will allow you to look at that, understand it better, and know where to apply work, when to relax, when to push forward, and in effect, how to become a better learner, both of yourself and whatever it is that you happen to be pursuing in life.
无论你在生活中想要学习和追求什么，今天的谈话，感谢乔什，将让你看到它，更好地理解它，并知道在哪里应用工作，何时放松，何时前进，以及实际上，如何成为一个更好的学习者，无论是你自己还是你在生活中追求的任何东西。
We have a saying in science, which is that sometimes you encounter somebody who is truly N of one, meaning a sample size of one in a category all by themselves.
我们在科学上有一个说法，那就是有时你会遇到一个真正是 N 的人，这意味着一个类别中的样本量完全是一个。
Josh Waitzkin is truly an N of one.
乔什·维茨金 (Josh Waitzkin) 确实是一位天才。
I know of no other person like him or even close to him in terms of his ability to live a unique life path and to take what he learns and to put it out into the world so that others may benefit.
据我所知，没有人像他一样，甚至没有人比他更接近他，有能力走上独特的人生道路，并将他所学到的知识运用到世界上，让其他人受益。
He lives with a tremendous amount of intentionality for the people he loves, for the things he loves, and with the intention of helping others learn how to learn better.
他对自己所爱的人、所爱的事物怀着巨大的意图，并致力于帮助他人学习如何更好地学习。
I must say it was a true honor to sit down with Josh.
我必须说，能与乔希坐在一起真是一种荣幸。
I've been a huge fan of his work for a very long time.
很长一段时间以来，我一直是他作品的忠实粉丝。
You'll also learn that he's a really nice person.
你还会发现他是一个非常好的人。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, this podcast episode does include sponsors.
为了与这个主题保持一致，这个播客节目确实有赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Josh Waitzkin.
现在我与乔什·维茨金进行讨论。
Josh Waitzkin, welcome.
乔什·维茨金，欢迎。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Thank you, man.
谢谢你，伙计。
Great to be here.
很高兴来到这里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Feel like I've known you a long time because I saw the "Search for Bobby Fischer," and I learned about the real human that was about you, and I read "The Art of Learning," and I must say I'm a fan and somewhat obsessed with the uniqueness of your arc and the choices you've made and your understanding of learning as a process and its universal properties, its specific properties in different contexts.
感觉我已经认识你很久了，因为我看了《寻找鲍比·费舍尔》，我了解了关于你的真实的人，我读了《学习的艺术》，我必须说我是你的粉丝，有点着迷于你的弧线的独特性和你所做的选择，以及你对学习作为一个过程及其普遍属性、不同背景下的特定属性的理解。
So I'm excited to dive in.
所以我很高兴能够投入其中。
I think for people that perhaps are not familiar with you, maybe you could just give us a broad overview of your backstory, like the things that you've really focused on in kind of chunks, if you will, just for a couple of minutes so that people can get familiar with the incredible things you've done, and I think that reflects the uniqueness of your choice-making process, which then we'll get into.
我认为对于那些可能不熟悉你的人来说，也许你可以向我们大致介绍一下你的背景故事，比如你真正关注的事情，如果你愿意的话，只需几分钟，这样人们就可以熟悉你所做的令人难以置信的事情，我认为这反映了你选择过程的独特性，然后我们将讨论这个过程。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah.
是的。
Sure.
当然。
Well, thank you, man.
嗯，谢谢你，伙计。
It's an honor.
这是一种荣幸。
I appreciate what you said.
我很欣赏你所说的。
Yeah, so I started playing chess.
是的，所以我开始下棋。
I grew up in New York City, downtown Manhattan.
我在纽约曼哈顿市中心长大。
I started playing chess when I was six years old.
我六岁时开始下棋。
And I discovered chess walking through Washington Square Park with my mom.
我和妈妈一起穿过华盛顿广场公园时发现了国际象棋。
And I remember watching a day or two, and then at one point I broke away from her.
我记得看了一两天，然后有一次我离开了她。
I was going to play on the monkey bars, and I ran over and I asked an old man if I could play.
我本来要去猴子栏上玩，我跑过去问一位老人我是否可以玩。
And he said yes, and my mom was surprised, and we started playing.
他说是的，我妈妈很惊讶，我们就开始玩了。
I played my first game of chess.
我下了第一盘国际象棋。
And I remember the very distinct feeling of, it was as if I was just discovering or rediscovering a lost memory.
我记得一种非常明显的感觉，就好像我刚刚发现或重新发现了一段丢失的记忆。
It wasn't like I was learning something new.
我并不是在学习新东西。
It was like I was wiping away the dust or the cobwebs between me and something I had known very deeply at one point.
就好像我正在擦拭我和我曾经非常熟悉的东西之间的灰尘或蜘蛛网。
Very strange feeling for a six-year-old boy.
对于一个六岁的男孩来说，这种感觉非常奇怪。
And then I just fell in love with the game.
然后我就爱上了这个游戏。
I got really intensely into it.
我非常热衷于它。
My first teachers were the hustlers in Washington Square.
我的第一位老师是华盛顿广场的骗子。
So it was just like a raucous crowd of guys who took me under their wing, started teaching me the tactical street side of the game.
所以这就像一群喧闹的人把我保护在他们的羽翼下，开始教我游戏的街头战术。
And, I was just unhindered as a learner.
而且，作为一名学习者，我没有受到任何阻碍。
Which is interesting from my perspective now as a dad, because my little boy Charlie is taking on surfing with that same kind of freedom, just that liberated, uncomplicated, out of his own way kind of vibe.
从我现在作为一名父亲的角度来看，这很有趣，因为我的小儿子查理正在以同样的自由方式进行冲浪，就是那种自由、简单、以他自己的方式进行的氛围。
Yeah, and then by the time I was seven, I started competing, and then I was the top-rated player for my age in the country, from most of the years from age seven to 23, my whole chess career.
是的，然后到我七岁的时候，我开始参加比赛，然后我是全国同龄人中评价最高的棋手，从七岁到 23 岁的大部分时间里，这是我整个国际象棋生涯的一部分。
So it was a very strange upbringing in some ways, which has led to some quirky elements in my psychology, which was that I was living in a pressure cooker of competition from age six on, and my whole childhood was spent as the target And so if you're competing in national championships, and I would compete in youth national and world championships, then otherwise I'd be competing against adults, everything else.
所以从某些方面来说，这是一种非常奇怪的成长经历，这导致了我心理上的一些奇怪的因素，那就是我从六岁起就生活在竞争的高压锅中，我的整个童年都是作为目标度过的，所以如果你参加全国锦标赛，我会参加青少年全国锦标赛和世界锦标赛，否则我就会与成年人竞争，其他一切。
But then you're the target, so any mistake you make, and kids make mistakes all the time, we all do.
但你就是目标，所以你犯的任何错误，孩子们总是犯错误，我们都会犯。
My rivals and their coaches, who are strong masters and international masters and grandmasters, would be able to study, and adult strong players can see very easily the weaknesses in a child, and so they would be prepared for them.
我的对手和他们的教练都是高手、国际高手、特级大师，他们可以学习，而成年高手很容易看到孩子的弱点，所以他们会做好准备。
So if I didn't take on a weakness, it would be exploited, and I would experience pain.
因此，如果我不接受弱点，它就会被利用，我就会经历痛苦。
And so from a very young age, not taking on my weaknesses was outside of my conceptual scheme.
因此，从很小的时候起，不接受自己的弱点就超出了我的概念计划。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Which is a really interesting thing to grow up with.
伴随着这一切成长，真是一件很有趣的事情。
And it, in many ways, lay the foundation for a lot of what I've done since.
从很多方面来说，它为我此后所做的许多事情奠定了基础。
And there are lots of things about that upbringing which could be unhealthy.
这种成长过程中有很多事情可能是不健康的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
I think-
我认为——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Being in the public eye.
出现在公众视野中。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah, so then-
是啊，那么——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Probably pretty very bizarre.
可能非常非常奇怪。
Luckily, it was before social media.
幸运的是，那是在社交媒体出现之前。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Super, yeah.
超级好，是啊。
I'm sorry.
对不起。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
And I have never been on social media in any way, which has been a choice.
我从来没有以任何方式使用过社交媒体，这是一个选择。
So yeah, so when I was 11, the book, "Searching for Bobby Fischer" came out, and then when I was 15, the movie came out.
是的，当我 11 岁的时候，《寻找鲍比·费舍尔》这本书出版了，然后当我 15 岁的时候，这部电影出版了。
And at that point, I was completely in love with chess.
那时，我完全爱上了国际象棋。
It was my first love.
这是我的初恋。
I was an unobstructed learner.
我是一个无阻碍的学习者。
I loved competition.
我喜欢竞争。
A lot of my opponents were trying to control the game, memorize openings, figure out how to win by force, but I loved the battle.
我的很多对手都试图控制比赛，记住开局，找出如何通过武力取胜，但我喜欢这场战斗。
My style was to create chaos, like in Washington Square Park.
我的风格是制造混乱，就像在华盛顿广场公园一样。
Find hidden harmonies in chaos, and I loved that.
在混乱中找到隐藏的和谐，我喜欢这一点。
So as the game went on and they moved away from their opening preparation and controlling things, we moved into my power zone, which was the fight.
因此，随着比赛的进行，他们不再开始准备和控制事情，我们进入了我的权力区，这就是战斗。
I loved the fight.
我喜欢这场战斗。
And then my chess life, in many ways, was free-flowing, and then the movie came out when I was 15, and then you can imagine what that was like, as a young teenager.
然后我的国际象棋生活在很多方面都是自由流动的，然后这部电影在我 15 岁的时候上映了，然后你可以想象那是什么样子，作为一个年轻的青少年。
All the attention, the media, the cameras everywhere, groupies, all the temptations.
所有的关注，媒体，无处不在的摄像机，追星族，所有的诱惑。
And I didn't ask for it.
我没有要求它。
And it was an alienating period for me relative to chess.
对于我来说，那是一段与国际象棋疏远的时期。
And around the same time, I started training with a Russian chess trainer who started urging me to move away from my self-expression as a chess player and to study the players who were the opposite of me.
大约在同一时间，我开始与一位俄罗斯国际象棋教练一起训练，他开始敦促我放弃作为国际象棋棋手的自我表达，而去研究与我相反的棋手。
I was an attacking player, aggressive.
我是一名进攻型球员，很有侵略性。
I played kind of in the style, not at the level, but in the style of Bobby Fischer or Garry Kasparov or Mikhail Tal, world champions who were hot-blooded.
我打球的风格有点像博比·费舍尔、加里·卡斯帕罗夫或米哈伊尔·塔尔，这些热血的世界冠军的风格，不是水平。
And I was being urged to study the more cold-blooded, prophylactic side of chess.
我被敦促去研究国际象棋更冷血、预防性的一面。
Petrosian, Karpov, more conservative, defensive players.
彼得罗相、卡尔波夫，都是比较保守、防守型的球员。
And so I was being told, instead of saying, "What does Josh feel here?" "What would Karpov play here?" Who's the opposite of me.
所以我被告知，而不是说，“乔希在这里感觉如何？” “卡尔波夫会在这里玩什么？”谁和我相反。
And so the combination of that public eye and then the movement away from my self-expression led to a period of obstructedness and self-consciousness.
因此，公众的目光加上我不再表达自我，导致了一段时期的阻碍和自我意识。
And an interesting theme we could talk about at one point is that passage from a pre-conscious to a post-conscious competitor.
我们可以谈论的一个有趣的主题是从前意识到后意识竞争对手的转变。
In many ways, I went from that freedom of pre-conscious competition into the tunnel of existential crisis.
在很多方面，我从前意识竞争的自由进入了存在危机的隧道。
And I grappled with it for a lot of years.
我为此奋斗了很多年。
And when I was 18, when I graduated high school, I-- And during that grappling, I was still the top-rated player in the country.
当我 18 岁的时候，当我高中毕业时，我——在那场格斗中，我仍然是全国排名最高的选手。
I was winning the national championships every year.
我每年都赢得全国冠军。
So from the outside, it looked good, but from the inside, I was in turmoil.
所以从外面看，一切都很好，但从内部来看，我却很混乱。
I was fighting with myself.
我在和自己作斗争。
I had all these demons.
我拥有所有这些恶魔。
And then I left the US.
然后我就离开了美国。
I spent a number of years after high school studying East Asian philosophy, meditating, reflecting.
高中毕业后，我花了几年时间学习东亚哲学、冥想、反思。
And then my study of chess in those years, and I was deeply in love with chess still.
再加上那些年学习象棋的我，至今仍深深地热爱着象棋。
It became much more of an introspective process.
这更像是一个内省的过程。
I was competing as intensely as ever, but chess became connected to life.
我一如既往地激烈竞争，但国际象棋变得与生活息息相关。
And then when I was 19 years old, I started training at the Human Performance Institute.
然后当我 19 岁时，我开始在人类绩效研究所接受培训。
At the time, it was called LGE, Lair, Groppel, and Etcheberry.
当时，它被称为 LGE、Lair、Groppel 和 Etcheberry。
It was a cross-disciplinary performance training center that Jim Lair opened up.
这是吉姆·莱尔开设的跨学科表演培训中心。
And then it became the HPI later on.
后来就变成了HPI。
And I'll never forget the moment that I was working with these performance psychologists, and I was at the gym, and I was working with nutritionists, and I was doing this intense workout, and I look next to me, and there was Jim Harbaugh, who was the quarterback at the time of the Colts NFL team.
我永远不会忘记我和这些表现心理学家一起工作的那一刻，我在健身房，我和营养师一起工作，我正在进行剧烈的锻炼，我看着我旁边，看到吉姆·哈博，他当时是小马队 NFL 队的四分卫。
And we got into this amazing dialogue about performance.
我们进行了关于性能的精彩对话。
And it was a real eye-opening moment for me because I realized that we spoke the same language.
这对我来说真是一个大开眼界的时刻，因为我意识到我们说的是同一种语言。
It was like, holy shit, this guy's an NFL quarterback, and I'm this crazy chess player, but we're doing the same thing.
就好像，天哪，这家伙是 NFL 四分卫，而我是个疯狂的国际象棋棋手，但我们正在做同样的事情。
And it was this crystallization moment where I realized that all of these arts are fundamentally connected at the highest levels.
正是在这个结晶时刻，我意识到所有这些艺术在最高层面上都有根本的联系。
And what we're doing is much more similar.
我们正在做的事情更加相似。
I observed that people who are at the pinnacles of different arts are often doing things that are much more similar than people who are in the same art from them, but at lower levels.
我观察到，处于不同艺术顶峰的人所做的事情往往比处于同一艺术顶峰的人做的事情要相似得多，但水平较低。
There's something in that qualitative experience.
这种高质量的体验是有一定道理的。
And then I began studying the principles that connected these things.
然后我开始研究连接这些事物的原理。
And then I had this interesting experience.
然后我有了这个有趣的经历。
I'm kind of compressing a life into a minute or two.
我有点把生活压缩成一两分钟。
But in my early 20s, when I ultimately moved away from chess, and I'm happy to talk about why and that journey.
但在我 20 岁出头的时候，我最终放弃了国际象棋，我很高兴谈论为什么以及那段旅程。
And then I moved into the martial arts.
然后我开始接触武术。
My study of East Asian philosophy moved me into the study of Taoism and Tai Chi, and then into Tai Chi Push Hands.
我对东亚哲学的研究促使我研究道教和太极拳，然后又研究了太极推手。
And I had this really interesting experience where, at that point, the introspective process of studying chess had become much more about studying life.
我有过一次非常有趣的经历，在那一刻，学习国际象棋的内省过程变得更多的是研究生活。
And so I was in an exploration of interconnectedness.
所以我正在探索互联性。
But I was not playing chess anymore, and I was all-in on the martial arts.
但我不再下棋了，我全心投入武术。
But I was giving a simultaneous chess exhibition, which I did every year for many years, for Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy research.
但我正在同时举办一场国际象棋展览，多年来我每年都会这样做，以进行杜氏肌营养不良症的研究。
And I was playing 50 chess games at once.
我同时下 50 盘棋。
And I was walking around this big square, playing against 50 young, up-and-coming, strong players at the same time.
我在这个大广场上走来走去，同时与50名年轻的、有前途的、实力雄厚的球员比赛。
And I realized at one point, I wasn't playing chess.
有一次我意识到，我不是在下棋。
I was moving chess pieces, but I was thinking in Tai Chi language.
我在移动棋子，但我在用太极语言思考。
I was feeling flow, feeling space left behind, riding energetic waves of the game.
我感受到了流动，感受到了留下的空间，驾驭着游戏的能量浪潮。
And I was winning all these chess games, but I hadn't played chess in a long time, and I wasn't playing chess.
我赢得了所有这些国际象棋比赛，但我已经很长时间没有下棋了，而且我也没有下棋。
And then my study of Tai Chi became extremely accelerated, and then I started winning, competing, and then I won in the fighting application, and I started winning national championships.
然后我对太极拳的学习变得非常加速，然后我开始获胜，比赛，然后我在格斗应用中获胜，我开始赢得全国冠军。
And then I began to think about or become more and more deeply involved in the study and the exploration of thematic interconnectedness, which has really become a life's work.
然后我开始思考或者越来越深入地参与主题关联性的研究和探索，这确实成为了我一生的工作。
And then my martial arts life ended up taking me all over the world, and I won some world championships.
然后我的武术生活最终带我走遍了世界，我赢得了一些世界冠军。
And then I moved into Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and trained in that art for many years and was training for the world championship for Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.
然后我开始学习巴西柔术，并接受了多年的训练，并为巴西柔术世界锦标赛进行训练。
This is after winning worlds in the Tai Chi Chuan, and I broke my back in a training camp.
这是在太极拳比赛中赢得世界冠军后，我在训练营中摔断了背部。
I own a school with Marcelo Garcia, who's a dear friend, who's nine-time world champion, perhaps the greatest grappler, pound-for-pound, to ever live.
我和马塞洛·加西亚 (Marcelo Garcia) 有一所学校，他是我的好朋友，曾九次获得世界冠军，也许是有史以来最伟大的格斗运动员。
And I was training at a really high level, and I was thinking about this as I was getting ready to begin my surge toward black belt world championships in Jiu-Jitsu, and I ruptured my L4-L5 disc.
我当时的训练水平非常高，当我准备开始冲向柔术黑带世界冠军时，我就想到了这一点，结果我的 L4-L5 椎间盘破裂了。
And it was the first time I'd been moved away from an art not on my own terms.
这是我第一次离开一门不符合我自己条件的艺术。
And it was a brutal injury.
这是一次残酷的伤害。
Then I ended up, as we do when we're mad men, coming back and training for a year and a half with the broken, busted-up back.
然后我最终像我们疯子时所做的那样，回来训练了一年半，带着破碎的背部。
And then the doctors told me I had to let this one go, or I'd be crippled for life.
然后医生告诉我我必须放弃这个，否则我将终身残疾。
And around that period is where I started to go all in on the art of training others.
大约在那个时期，我开始全身心投入培训他人的艺术。
And I said, "Okay, if I can't be all in training as a competitor, as an athlete myself..." I'd been training elite competitors in mental and physical performance for some time then, but I wanted to take on the challenge of loving training others with the same intensity that I love training myself.
我说，“好吧，如果我不能作为一名运动员、作为一名运动员全身心投入训练……”当时我已经训练精英运动员的心理和身体表现有一段时间了，但我想接受挑战，以我热爱训练自己的强度来热爱训练别人。
And I went all in on that art, and I'm still all in on that art, but I never actually got to the place where I love not being in the arena myself as much as being in the arena myself.
我全身心地投入到这种艺术中，而且我仍然全身心地投入到这种艺术中，但我从来没有真正达到这样的境界：我喜欢自己不在竞技场上，而喜欢自己在竞技场上。
And then in this chapter of my life now, I've fallen in love with the ocean arts, initially surfing and now foiling.
然后，在我人生的这一章，我爱上了海洋艺术，最初是冲浪，现在是滑翔。
And for the last eight years, I've been living in the jungles of Costa Rica with my family.
在过去的八年里，我和家人一起生活在哥斯达黎加的丛林中。
And I train three to five hours a day in foiling, and so I'm in my really intense training lifestyle myself.
我每天训练三到五个小时进行花剑比赛，所以我自己也处于非常紧张的训练生活方式中。
And I train elite mental and physical competitors around the world in finance, in science, technology, and in sports.
我还为世界各地的金融、科学、技术和体育领域的精英智力和体力竞争者提供培训。
I've been doing some amazing work with the Boston Celtics for the last few years.
过去几年我在波士顿凯尔特人队做了一些令人惊叹的工作。
So that's the journey in a nutshell.
简而言之，这就是旅程。
Happy to dig into any of it.
很高兴深入研究其中的任何一个。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and thank one of our sponsors, Wealthfront.
我想稍微休息一下，并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Wealthfront。
I've been using Wealthfront for my savings and my investing for nearly a decade, and I absolutely love it.
近十年来，我一直使用 Wealthfront 进行储蓄和投资，我非常喜欢它。
Every January, I set new goals for the year, and one of my goals for 2025 is to focus on saving money.
每年一月，我都会设定新的一年目标，2025 年的目标之一就是专注于省钱。
Since I have Wealthfront, I'll keep that savings in my Wealthfront cash account, where I'm able to earn 4% annual percentage yield on my deposits, and you can as well.
由于我拥有 Wealthfront，我会将这笔储蓄保留在我的 Wealthfront 现金账户中，在那里我可以通过存款赚取 4% 的年收益率，您也可以。
With Wealthfront, you can earn 4% APY on your cash from partner banks until you're ready to either spend that money or invest it.
通过 Wealthfront，您可以从合作银行获得 4% 的现金年化收益，直到您准备好花掉这些钱或进行投资。
With Wealthfront, you also get free instant withdrawals to eligible accounts every day, even on weekends and holidays.
通过Wealthfront，您还可以每天免费即时提款到符合条件的账户，即使在周末和节假日也是如此。
The 4% APY is not a promotional rate.
4% APY 并非促销费率。
There's no limit to what you can deposit and earn, and you can even get protection of up to $8 million through FDIC insurance provided through Wealthfront's partner banks.
您可以存款和赚取的金额没有限制，您甚至可以通过 Wealthfront 合作银行提供的 FDIC 保险获得高达 800 万美元的保护。
Wealthfront gives you free instant withdrawals, where it takes just a few minutes to transfer your money to eligible external accounts.
Wealthfront 为您提供免费即时提款，只需几分钟即可将您的资金转入符合条件的外部账户。
It also takes just minutes to transfer your cash from the cash account to any of Wealthfront's automated investment accounts when you're ready to invest.
当您准备好投资时，只需几分钟即可将现金从现金账户转移到 Wealthfront 的任何自动投资账户。
There are already over a million people using Wealthfront to save more, earn more, and build long-term wealth.
已经有超过一百万人使用 Wealthfront 来储蓄更多、赚更多钱并建立长期财富。
Earn 4% APY on your cash today.
今天就用现金赚取 4% 年化收益。
If you'd like to try Wealthfront, go to wealthfront.com/huberman to receive a free $50 bonus with a $500 deposit into your first cash account.
如果您想尝试Wealthfront，请访问wealthfront.com/huberman，在您的第一个现金账户中存入500美元即可获得免费的50美元奖金。
That's wealthfront.com/huberman to get started now.
现在就开始吧：www.realityfront.com/huberman。
This has been a paid testimonial of Wealthfront.
这是 Wealthfront 的付费推荐。
Wealthfront brokerage isn't a bank.
Wealthfront 经纪公司不是银行。
The APY is subject to change.
APY 可能会发生变化。
For more information, see the episode description.
有关更多信息，请参阅剧集描述。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Our Place.
今天的节目也是由我们的地方给我们带来的。
Our Place makes my favorite pots, pans, and other cookware.
我们的地方生产我最喜欢的锅、平底锅和其他炊具。
Surprisingly, toxic compounds such as the PFAS or forever chemicals are still found in 80% of non-stick pans, as well as utensils, appliances, and countless other kitchen products.
令人惊讶的是，80% 的不粘锅以及器皿、电器和无数其他厨房产品中仍然含有 PFAS 或永久化学物质等有毒化合物。
As I've discussed on this podcast, these PFAS or forever chemicals like Teflon have been linked to major health issues such as endocrine disruption, gut microbiome disruption, fertility issues, and many other health problems.
正如我在本播客中讨论的那样，这些 PFAS 或特氟隆等永久性化学物质与内分泌干扰、肠道微生物组破坏、生育问题和许多其他健康问题等重大健康问题有关。
So it's really important to avoid them.
因此，避免它们非常重要。
This is why I've recently fallen in love with Our Place products, especially one of their cooking pans, the Titanium Always Pan Pro.
这就是为什么我最近爱上了 Our Place 产品，尤其是他们的一款烹饪锅，Titanium Always Pan Pro。
Our Place products are made with the highest quality materials and are all PFAS and toxin-free.
我们的 Place 产品采用最优质的材料制成，不含 PFAS 和毒素。
They're beautifully designed and function extremely well.
它们设计精美，功能非常好。
As I mentioned, I love the Titanium Always Pan Pro from Our Place.
正如我提到的，我喜欢我们家的 Titanium Always Pan Pro。
I cook eggs in it most mornings, and the titanium pan is designed in a way that allows the eggs to cook perfectly without sticking to the pan.
我大多数早上都会用它煮鸡蛋，钛锅的设计可以让鸡蛋完美地煮熟而不会粘在锅上。
I also cook burgers on it, and it really puts a nice sear on the burger without the meat sticking to the pan.
我还用它来做汉堡，它确实让汉堡有很好的烤焦效果，而肉却不会粘在锅上。
It's extremely easy to clean, and like all Our Place products, it's nice to look at when sitting out on the counter or stove.
它非常容易清洁，并且像所有 Our Place 产品一样，放在柜台或炉子上时看起来很漂亮。
For a limited time, Our Place is offering an exclusive 20% discount on their innovative Titanium Always Pan Pro, designed to last a lifetime and completely toxin-free.
在有限的时间内，Our Place 为其创新的 Titanium Always Pan Pro 提供 20% 的独家折扣，该产品专为终身使用且完全无毒而设计。
Visit fromourplace.com/huberman and use the code SAVEHUBERMAN20 to claim the offer.
请访问 fromourplace.com/huberman 并使用代码 SAVEHUBERMAN20 领取优惠。
With a 100-day risk-free trial, free shipping, and free returns, you can experience this game-changing cookware with zero risk.
通过 100 天无风险试用、免费送货和免费退货，您可以零风险体验这款改变游戏规则的炊具。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah, thank you.
是的，谢谢。
We'll definitely revisit certain time points and themes there.
我们肯定会重新审视那里的某些时间点和主题。
I can imagine as a young boy playing chess, you have your own strategies.
我可以想象，作为一个下棋的小男孩，你有自己的策略。
You're developing an understanding of what works for you.
您正在了解什么对您有用。
But of course, you as a young kid are also getting into the mind of the other player.
但当然，作为一个小孩子，你也会进入其他玩家的思想。
You actually described that your coach or coaches were encouraging you to get into a different mindset, one that was not your default or trained-up mindset, less focused on chaos and aggression, and more in this
你实际上描述了你的一个或多个教练鼓励你进入一种不同的心态，一种不是你默认或训练有素的心态，不太关注混乱和攻击性，更多的是在这方面
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
this other mode of playing by thinking about these other types of chess players and ways to play chess.
通过思考其他类型的国际象棋棋手和下棋方法来了解这种其他的下棋模式。
So I can imagine that most kids are not weaned.
所以我可以想象大多数孩子都没有断奶。
Their brain isn't developing around a game, right?
他们的大脑不是围绕游戏发育的，对吧？
It seems that your brain was built, the developmental neuroplasticity that's so robust in early childhood was built around this game that we call chess.
似乎你的大脑是围绕着我们称之为国际象棋的游戏而构建的，在幼儿期如此强大的发育性神经可塑性是建立起来的。
And it seems to me that you were encouraged to develop a theory of mind that wasn't just your own, which itself I think is really unique, right?
在我看来，你被鼓励去发展一种不只是你自己的心理理论，我认为它本身是非常独特的，对吧？
Most six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 12 year olds might be told, "Hey, listen, the reason they were mean to you at school is they just hate themselves," or, "They just didn't think about whether or not to pick you first or last for the game," or whatever it is, right?
大多数六岁、七岁、八岁、九岁、十岁、十二岁的孩子可能会被告知，“嘿，听着，他们在学校对你刻薄的原因是他们只是讨厌自己”，或者，“他们只是没有考虑是否在比赛中首先或最后选择你”，或者其他什么，对吗？
That you get told to do that.
你被告知要这样做。
But for you, it became it seems an intense practice of trying to learn to get into the mind of another while holding onto your own sense of what's you versus them.
但对你来说，这似乎成为一种强烈的练习，试图学习进入他人的思想，同时坚持自己对自己和他们的看法。
And so as a developmental neurobiologist, I understand this is perhaps one of the most important events in the development of our brain.
因此，作为一名发育神经生物学家，我知道这可能是我们大脑发育中最重要的事件之一。
It seems that your brain was built up around that dynamic.
看来你的大脑就是围绕着这种动态而建立的。
And so now you coach peak performers, and so much of coaching and teaching or being a parent is to get into the mind of another.
所以现在你要指导表现最好的人，而很多指导和教学或作为父母都是为了进入另一个人的思想。
The difference is when you're a parent, you can think back to being a child and at least get some general sense of what that's like.
不同之处在于，当你成为父母时，你可以回想一下小时候的情况，至少对那是什么样子有一些大致的了解。
Stepping back from what I just said, and I realize there's a lot of words there, but do you think that what you're doing when you approach a practice like Tai Chi or Brazilian jujitsu or science or math or music from the perspective of a performer or a teacher, is that you're getting into the mind of someone else?
回想一下我刚才所说的，我意识到那里有很多话，但你是否认为当你从表演者或老师的角度进行太极或巴西柔术或科学、数学或音乐等练习时，你正在做的事情是在进入别人的思想吗？
Or you're trying to stay in your own mindset?
或者你试图保持自己的心态？
I'm sorry I'm not being more succinct with this, but I think that-
很抱歉我没有更简洁地表达这一点，但我认为-
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
No, I think that's a great question
不，我认为这是一个很好的问题
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as humans, we do this.
作为人类，我们这样做。
I'm sure our dogs look up at us and say, "Oh, they're happy with me," or, "They're sad with me," but the algorithms they're running are more simplistic and we as the most sophisticated old world primates do this so spectacularly well, and it seems that much of your career and your life has been built around these kinds of dynamics.
我确信我们的狗抬头看着我们说，“哦，他们对我感到高兴”，或者“他们对我感到难过”，但他们运行的算法更加简单，而我们作为最复杂的旧世界灵长类动物在这方面做得非常好，而且似乎你的职业生涯和生活的大部分都是围绕这些动态建立的。
So put simply, what is your mindset when you approach a practice that's just you and the practice versus your mindset when you approach a practice when it's you and another, a competitor, versus when you're trying to teach something, you and a bunch of different minds, but there's a common goal?
简而言之，当你进行只有你和其他人（竞争对手）的练习时，你的心态是什么？当你尝试教一些东西时，你和一群不同的人，但有一个共同的目标，你的心态是什么？
Okay, so there's really three big questions wrapped in there, and now-
好吧，这确实涉及三个大问题，现在——
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
There's sort of 15 really big questions wrapped in there.
其中包含 15 个非常大的问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Fifteen really big questions, and my audience gets upset at the length of these questions, but I think for me it's important to just set this out there as a buffet from which you can select anything or discard anything that you like.
十五个非常大的问题，我的听众对这些问题的长度感到不安，但我认为对我来说，重要的是把它作为一个自助餐，你可以从中选择任何东西或丢弃任何你喜欢的东西。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
There are many delectable things to select there.
那里有很多美味的东西可供选择。
Yeah, so first of all, one-on-one competition is so interesting in mental and physical arenas.
是的，首先，一对一的比赛在心理和身体方面都很有趣。
So if we think about Brazilian jujitsu or chess as two of them, but let's zone in on chess because that's when I was a kid.
因此，如果我们将巴西柔术或国际象棋视为其中两个，但让我们专注于国际象棋，因为那是我小时候的事。
You're thinking about what your plan is, and you're also thinking about what your opponent's plan is, and every move your opponent makes, you have to think, "Why did he do that?
你在想你的计划是什么，你也在想你的对手的计划是什么，对手的每一步举动，你都要想：“他为什么这么做？
What's his plan?
他的计划是什么？
What is his tactical plan?
他的战术计划是什么？
What is his strategic plan, short-term and long-term?"
他的短期和长期战略计划是什么？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you're trying to unpack his strategy?
所以你想破解他的策略？
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Always.
总是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you're assuming that he has or she has a strategy.
你假设他或她有一个策略。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Well, if they don't have a strategy, then they're not going to be a good chess player.
好吧，如果他们没有策略，那么他们就不会成为一名优秀的棋手。
And so then very quickly, if you're evolving in that art, you're only playing against people who are at your level or better if you're growing.
所以很快，如果你在这门艺术中不断进步，你只会与与你水平相当或更好的人比赛（如果你在成长的话）。
If you're always playing down, then you're not improving.
如果你总是表现得很低调，那么你就不会进步。
And there's a beautiful filtration process in the people who accelerate in their growth curve in the chess world are ones who are challenging themselves all the time, playing up, pushing their limits.
在国际象棋世界中，那些加速成长曲线的人有一个美妙的过滤过程，他们一直在挑战自己、努力拼搏、突破自己的极限。
And so I spent my life playing against strong players, and I always played a little up except for when I was in youth competition.
所以我一生都在和强手交手，除了青年队比赛之外，我总是打得稍微好一点。
I always played up, which was important for me.
我总是打球，这对我来说很重要。
And so people had a plan, and they were very deceptive about their plans, and there are layers to the plans.
所以人们有一个计划，他们的计划非常具有欺骗性，而且计划是有层次的。
There's the tactics they're trying to set up.
他们正在尝试制定一些策略。
There's their long-term strategy, but then there's what they want me to think their strategy is, which it isn't, and in fact, their strategy is to have misdirection around what their strategy and their tactics are, and there are layers to it, and it can go many, many layers deep.
他们有长期战略，但他们希望我认为他们的战略是什么，但事实并非如此，事实上，他们的战略是围绕他们的战略和战术进行误导，而且它有很多层次，而且可以深入很多很多层次。
Same thing in the martial arts, right?
武术也是如此，对吧？
So obviously you need to have a theory of mind to play that game, at least the way I played chess at a high level.
显然，你需要有一个心理理论来玩这个游戏，至少是我在高水平下棋的方式。
And there's this very interesting shared consciousness between players.
玩家之间有一种非常有趣的共同意识。
You and I are sitting a little further apart than we would sit if we were playing chess.
你和我坐的距离比我们下棋时坐的距离远一些。
So if we were half the distance we are from one another and we're just sitting for six hours with a three-foot chessboard, three feet between us, studying this thing, our minds become connected.
因此，如果我们彼此之间的距离只有一半，并且我们只是在一个三英尺长的棋盘上坐了六个小时，我们之间的距离为三英尺，研究这个东西，我们的思想就会变得紧密相连。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
We often will share the same illusion.
我们常常会有同样的幻想。
You might see something and then I see it when you see it.
你可能会看到一些东西，然后当你看到它时我也看到它。
We might have the same blind spot.
我们可能有相同的盲点。
We might have the same insight.
我们或许有同样的见解。
The connectedness of minds is fascinating, and it's through chess, it's directly energetic.
心灵的联系是令人着迷的，通过国际象棋，它直接充满活力。
It's through eye contact.
这是通过眼神交流。
It's through body language.
这是通过肢体语言。
It's by seeing microexpressions.
这是通过观察微表情。
It's everything.
这就是一切。
So you're always reading the opponent, and as you get really good, you learn what your tells are, what your opponent's tells are.
所以你总是在阅读对手，当你变得非常优秀时，你就会了解你的说法是什么，你的对手的说法是什么。
Then you also learn, I often would have tells on purpose, and I'd have predictable tells that I would let people lean on for a long time until I didn't let them lean on it anymore.
然后你还会了解到，我经常会故意告诉别人，而且我会有可预测的告诉，我会让人们长期依赖，直到我不再让他们依赖为止。
It's like in the martial arts where you give someone comfort in a lean, right?
这就像在武术中你给某人倾斜的安慰，对吧？
And you give them a rep of something they can lean on here, they can lean here, and then they can lean here very comfortably, five or six or eight or 10 times in a row until they can't, and then they're on the floor, right?
你给他们一个可以靠在这里的东西的代表，他们可以靠在这里，然后他们可以非常舒适地靠在这里，连续五、六、八或十次，直到他们不能，然后他们就躺在地板上，对吗？
And this is happening in chess.
这正在国际象棋中发生。
It's happening in all of these things, and one-on-one competition is a relentless truth teller.
所有这些事情都在发生，而一对一的竞争是无情的真相讲述者。
If you have a weakness, it will be exposed.
如果你有弱点，就会暴露出来。
If your opponent has a weakness, you will expose it.
如果你的对手有弱点，你就会暴露它。
If you go into a chess game and you've got a huge opening repertoire that's extremely complex, but there's one little place that I just hope he doesn't go there, he always goes there.
如果你参加一场国际象棋比赛，你有一个非常复杂的巨大开局曲目，但有一个小地方我只是希望他不要去那里，他总是去那里。
It's so bonkers.
太疯狂了。
You can't hope your opponent's not going to see it.
你不能指望你的对手不会看到它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
You can't make the second-best move because maybe he'll blunder and I'll win.
你不能采取第二好的举动，因为也许他会犯错，而我会赢。
That never works if you're playing against real competition.
如果你面对的是真正的竞争对手，那是行不通的。
And so you need to understand your mind, you need to understand your opponent's mind, you need to understand your opponent's understanding of your mind, right?
所以你需要了解你的想法，你需要了解你的对手的想法，你需要了解你的对手对你的想法的了解，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a lot of plates to spin.
有很多板块需要旋转。
And what I guess what I said before, not so clearly, is that for a young mind to be able to learn to spin all those plates is incredible.
我想我之前说过的（不太清楚）是，对于一个年轻的头脑来说能够学会旋转所有这些盘子是令人难以置信的。
It's clearly possible.
这显然是可能的。
It's unique, but it's possible.
它是独特的，但也是可能的。
You did that.
你做到了。
But it takes a young mind or an adult mind out of its own unique experience.
但它需要一个年轻的头脑或一个成年人的头脑脱离自己独特的经历。
So this is eventually how we'll circle back to pre-consciousness versus post-consciousness.
所以这就是我们最终将回到前意识与后意识的方式。
But in the meantime, when was it that you first recall thinking not, "Oh, I'm going to beat this guy," but sensing, he's getting nervous, or he's confident, or he can sense that I'm nervous, or I'm going to set a trap and just feeling out whether or not they detect the trap.
但与此同时，你第一次记得不是在想“哦，我要打败这个家伙”，而是在感觉，他变得紧张，或者他很自信，或者他能感觉到我紧张，或者我要设置一个陷阱，只是感觉他们是否发现了陷阱。
It's just a lot.
只是很多。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Right away.
马上。
Keep in mind, my first teachers were hustlers, were chess hustlers from Washington Square.
请记住，我的第一位老师是骗子，是来自华盛顿广场的国际象棋骗子。
So they would mess with my mind all the time, and then they would teach me what they were doing, and they would do it again at a higher level.
所以他们会一直扰乱我的思想，然后他们会教我他们在做什么，然后他们会在更高的水平上再次这样做。
Right?
正确的？
So they're distracting, they're setting traps, they're using Jedi mind tricks of every sort.
所以他们分散注意力，他们设置陷阱，他们使用各种绝地心理技巧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They didn't kid gloves you at all.
他们根本就没有欺骗你。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
I wouldn't say at all.
我根本不会说。
This was a rough-and-tumble crowd.
这是一群混乱的人群。
There were a lot of drugs in the park.
公园里有很多毒品。
There was a lot of fights in the park.
公园里发生了很多打架事件。
These guys took me under their wing.
这些家伙把我保护在他们的羽翼之下。
There were moments where some guy would be going off, and the guy would say, "Hey, Josh is here.
有时候，某个人会离开，那个人会说：“嘿，乔希在这里。
Cut that out." I was their protege.
把它删掉吧。”我是他们的门生。
So they did, but they also did not wear thick gloves, and the gloves were thinning out all the time, and I was getting better fast, and then we'd go to war.
他们确实这么做了，但他们也没有戴厚手套，而且手套一直在变薄，我的情况恢复得很快，然后我们就去打仗了。
They were my teachers.
他们是我的老师。
They were my friends.
他们是我的朋友。
I'm super grateful for, like, they-- And then what's interesting is that my first classical chess teacher, Bruce Pandolfini, saw me playing in the park and asked my father if I could work with him, and then we started training together.
我非常感激他们——然后有趣的是，我的第一位古典象棋老师布鲁斯·潘多菲尼（Bruce Pandolfini）看到我在公园里玩，就问我父亲是否可以和他一起工作，然后我们开始一起训练。
And one of the things that I feel really badly about is the way he was portrayed in the film, "Searching for Bobby Fischer," because Bruce is still a dear friend of mine.
让我感觉非常糟糕的一件事是他在电影《寻找鲍比·费舍尔》中的形象，因为布鲁斯仍然是我的好朋友。
Ben Kingsley played him as a much more severe person than he was.
本·金斯利（Ben Kingsley）把他扮演为一个比他本人严厉得多的人。
He was a beautiful teacher, and he wanted me to express myself, as did the guys in the park, but he was also filling in the holes and teaching me a classical chess foundation, and we were studying chess from the endgame first, principles, studying positions of reduced complexity to touch high-level principles, and then learning to apply them to more and more complex positions.
他是一位漂亮的老师，他希望我像公园里的人一样表达自己，但他也在填补漏洞并教我古典国际象棋基础，我们首先从残局开始学习国际象棋原理，研究降低复杂性的位置以触及高级原理，然后学习将它们应用到越来越复杂的位置。
So my early chess education had both the classical study with Bruce, and it had the street smart game with the hustlers at the park.
所以我早期的国际象棋教育既有布鲁斯的经典学习，也有与公园里的骗子的街头聪明游戏。
And, but to answer your question, right away, when I was six years old, my opponents would mess with my mind and trap me and trick me and make me think here, and then they'd go there, and then I would learn to do that.
而且，但是要立即回答你的问题，当我六岁的时候，我的对手会扰乱我的思想，困住我，欺骗我，让我思考这里，然后他们会去那里，然后我会学会这样做。
And then I remember there was one youth competition where I made a move, he set a trap and went, "Oh." It was that obvious, right?
然后我记得有一次青少年比赛，我迈出一步，他设下一个陷阱，然后说：“哦。”这很明显，对吧？
It's like the worst.
这就像最糟糕的情况。
And then it gets increasingly subtle.
然后它变得越来越微妙。
Right?
正确的？
But my opponent said, "Oh, he's unhappy.
但我的对手说：“哦，他不高兴。
Take the pawn." And then your opponents see it, and then you learn those things just keep on, the circles get smaller and smaller and tighter and tighter and more and more refined.
拿走典当吧。”然后你的对手看到了，然后你就学到了这些东西，继续下去，圈子变得越来越小，越来越紧，越来越精致。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is the opposite of Asperger's or autism, by the way.
顺便说一句，这与阿斯伯格症或自闭症相反。
What you're describing is a hypertrophied set of circuits for theory of mind in a very young kid, so to be able to understand what's happening around you.
你所描述的是一个非常年幼的孩子的一套肥大的心理理论回路，以便能够理解你周围发生的事情。
And I think for many people, the joys of childhood are really about not being aware of what's going on around you.
我认为对于很多人来说，童年的乐趣实际上在于不知道周围发生的事情。
The psychologists would refer to this as a lack of impingement.
心理学家将此称为缺乏撞击。
Impingement is when a kid is playing, and they're really enjoying something, and then suddenly they decide they don't want to play anymore, and the parent doesn't want to be bothered, so they say, "No, no, no, keep playing." They're impinging on the kid's reflexive desire to do something or not do something.
撞击是指孩子正在玩耍，他们真的很喜欢某件事，然后突然他们决定不再玩了，而父母也不想被打扰，所以他们说：“不，不，不，继续玩。”它们会影响孩子做某事或不做某事的本能欲望。
This isn't about keeping them safe.
这并不是为了保证他们的安全。
This is in the domain of safety.
这属于安全范畴。
But at least within the channel of chess, it seems that you developed your entire understanding of the psychology of human beings, except for, of course, you had experience at home of family and friends.
但至少在国际象棋的过程中，你似乎发展了对人类心理的全部理解，当然，除了你在家人和朋友家里的经历之外。
But chess certainly cut a wide trough through your development.
但国际象棋无疑在你的发展过程中开辟了一条宽阔的低谷。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Well, I'm really grateful for my early chess life, and I also would never choose to put that on my children.
嗯，我真的很感激我早年的国际象棋生活，我也永远不会选择把它放在我的孩子身上。
It worked out really well for me.
这对我来说效果非常好。
I have my wounds, right?
我有伤口吧？
There's lots of things that I've had to grapple with.
有很多事情我必须去解决。
But I think if you put a lot of children through the pressures that I went through, it wouldn't work out well.
但我认为，如果让很多孩子承受我所经历的压力，结果不会很好。
And I watched a lot of my young, almost all my young rivals or, very close to all of my young rivals, ended up quitting and falling into crisis, and then you have parents and coaches who are expressing their own egoic needs through the children, and the children are shouldering that, and then that becomes very difficult to deal with.
我看到我的很多年轻人，几乎所有年轻的竞争对手，或者非常接近我所有的年轻竞争对手，最终退出并陷入危机，然后你的父母和教练通过孩子们表达他们自己的自我需求，而孩子们则承担着这一点，然后这就变得非常难以处理。
And then you're dealing with heartbreak, and you're putting everything on the line, and you're losing, and you're dealing with your own self-doubts and the heartbreak of your mother and your father and your coach and then your friends.
然后你要面对心碎，你把一切都置于危险之中，然后你就输了，你要面对自己的自我怀疑，以及你母亲、父亲、教练和朋友的心碎。
And then as the pressures get more and more intense in chess, you really are putting your heart and soul on the line through that chessboard.
然后，随着国际象棋中的压力越来越大，你真的要把你的心和灵魂都放在棋盘上。
In casual games, let alone in national and world championships, and you're being shattered when you lose.
在休闲游戏中，更不用说在全国锦标赛和世界锦标赛中，当你输了的时候你就会崩溃。
I was shattered many times over.
我多次心碎。
I lost last rounds of national chess championships and world championships multiple times over, and those were the greatest moments of my life, in retrospect.
我在全国国际象棋锦标赛和世界锦标赛的最后几轮比赛中多次失利，回想起来，那是我一生中最伟大的时刻。
They taught me the most important lessons of my life.
他们教给我一生中最重要的课程。
I would never take it back.
我永远不会收回它。
And that's a pattern in my chess life and my fight life and everything I've gone through The most heartbreaking, devastating moments ultimately were the ones that catalyzed the most growth, and they were beautiful.
这就是我的国际象棋生活、格斗生活以及我所经历的一切的一种模式。最令人心碎、最具毁灭性的时刻最终是最能促进成长的时刻，它们是美丽的。
And I really relate to them that way.
我确实是这样与他们相处的。
But they also can be brutal for young minds, and they can destroy people.
但它们对年轻人来说也可能是残酷的，它们可能会摧毁人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
What do you think it is about failure or missing the mark in some way that catalyzes change?
您认为失败或在某些方面未能达到目标会促进变革吗？
I always say that your brain has no reason to change if you're just trying to learn something and you're in flow.
我总是说，如果你只是想学习一些东西并且处于心流状态，那么你的大脑没有理由改变。
Most people associate being, quote-unquote, in flow with getting everything correct, doing everything correctly.
大多数人将“存在”（引述不引述）与“正确地做每件事”、“正确地做每件事”联系在一起。
I don't think that was the original definition that Csikszentmihalyi intended, but the neuroscience of brain plasticity tells us that it's only under conditions in which there's some mismatch between what you're trying to do, like this has been studied in terms of reaching for an object and there's a mirror displacement or a prism displacement or something.
我不认为这是 Csikszentmihalyi 最初的定义，但大脑可塑性的神经科学告诉我们，只有在你想要做的事情之间存在一些不匹配的情况下，就像这已经被研究为伸手去拿一个物体，并且存在镜子位移或棱镜位移或其他东西。
You eventually can learn to error-correct, because the cup is actually over there as opposed to where you see it.
你最终可以学会纠正错误，因为杯子实际上就在那里，而不是你看到的地方。
But it is the deployment of these chemicals inside of us, adrenaline, noradrenaline, and dopamine in particular, those three, they're cousins, the catecholamines, that, at a neurochemical level, tells the synapses, "Wait, something needs to change." The brain doesn't have any reason to change unless there's frustration, agitation, or at least some neurochemical change associated with those things that we call frustration and agitation.
但正是这些化学物质在我们体内的部署，特别是肾上腺素、去甲肾上腺素和多巴胺，这三种化学物质是儿茶酚胺，它们在神经化学水平上告诉突触，“等等，有些东西需要改变。”大脑没有任何理由发生变化，除非有沮丧、激动，或者至少有一些与我们所说的沮丧和激动相关的神经化学变化。
So do you think these big, what feel like cataclysmic fails set a sort of window of plasticity in which we can change?
那么，你认为这些巨大的、感觉像是灾难性的失败是否设置了一种我们可以改变的可塑性窗口？
I often think that.
我常常这样想。
That it's only through the devastation of a huge loss that the brain is now set up for a bunch of new learning.
只有通过巨大损失的破坏，大脑现在才能准备好进行大量新的学习。
Certainly, we wouldn't want to design the system that way, but as I always joke, I wasn't consulted at the design phase, and you weren't either.
当然，我们不想那样设计系统，但正如我总是开玩笑的那样，在设计阶段没有人咨询我，你也没有。
We just had to work with what's there.
我们只需要利用现有的东西。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like big failure.
就像大失败一样。
Why do you think that sets a wave front of change?
您认为为什么这会引发变革浪潮？
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah, it's a great question.
是的，这是一个很好的问题。
Well, I think the study you sent me yesterday-
嗯，我想你昨天发给我的研究报告-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
...
...
speaks to this.
谈到这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, maybe we should talk about that.
是的，也许我们应该谈谈这个。
Yeah.
是的。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah.
是的。
Maybe I'll answer that question experientially, and maybe you could then talk about the study and we can riff on it a little bit.
也许我会根据经验回答这个问题，也许你可以谈谈这项研究，我们可以稍微讨论一下。
This is so much fun, by the way, because I've lived my life in the arena, just pushing myself.
顺便说一句，这太有趣了，因为我的生活就在竞技场上，只是在鞭策自己。
I'm not a scientist, but I'm my own laboratory.
我不是科学家，但我是我自己的实验室。
You said to me yesterday at the game like-
你昨天在比赛中对我说——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You said, "I'm not a scientist, but I'm looking forward to tomorrow." And I said, "Trust me, you're a scientist."
你说：“我不是科学家，但我期待明天。”我说：“相信我，你是一名科学家。”
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I do science through the lens of a certain understanding of mechanism and structure, function, and some processes, and you do science through the lens of experience and drawing core parallels and principles in different domains and at different levels from unskilled all the way up to virtuosity.
我通过对机制、结构、功能和某些过程的一定理解来进行科学研究，而你则通过经验的视角来进行科学研究，并在不同领域和不同水平上从不熟练一直到精湛的领域中绘制核心相似之处和原理。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's kind of how I see it.
我就是这么看的。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
I think if I think about the most painful losses of my life, the most devastating injuries of my life, I think about dying, drowning.
我想，如果我想到我一生中最痛苦的损失、我一生中最具毁灭性的伤害，我就会想到死亡、溺水。
I drowned on the bottom doing hypoxic breathwork in a pool.
我在泳池里做缺氧呼吸时淹死在水底。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, I-
哦，我-
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
I was on the bottom of the pool-
我在泳池的底部——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I heard about that
我听说过
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
...
...
four and a half minutes after.
四分半钟后。
That led to arguably the best decision of my life, to move into the jungle.
这可以说是我一生中最好的决定：搬进丛林。
I think about losing the last round of the under 18 World Chess Championship on the first board.
我考虑在第一盘输掉18岁以下世界国际象棋锦标赛最后一轮。
That's a very interesting story I could describe a little bit.
这是一个非常有趣的故事，我可以稍微描述一下。
Or I think about my first national championship I lost when I was seven, eight.
或者我想起我在七八岁的时候失去的第一个全国冠军。
First board, last round, just unobstructed learning until then, and then I lost the last round for the title.
第一局，最后一轮，直到那时我才畅通无阻地学习，然后我输掉了最后一轮的冠军。
Fell into an opening trap.
掉进了一个开放的陷阱。
That's the loss that was the greatest thing that ever happened to me.
那是我经历过的最伟大的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You were how old?
你那时几岁？
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
I think I had just turned eight, or maybe I was late seven.
我想我刚刚满八岁，或者也许我已经七岁了。
Because if I had won that game, I easily could've associated winning with just no pain, no hard, just cruising up until the end.
因为如果我赢了那场比赛，我很容易就会把胜利与没有痛苦、没有困难、只是坚持到最后的感觉联系在一起。
That was the moment that I got my ass kicked.
那是我被踢屁股的那一刻。
I had to go back, deal with these demons, come back, train for the next year, and then I won the next year, and then it was off to the races.
我必须回去，对付这些恶魔，回来，为明年训练，然后我赢得了第二年，然后就开始参加比赛了。
My life might look very different if I'd won that game.
如果我赢了那场比赛，我的生活可能会大不相同。
And actually, the kid who beat me in that game, David Arnett, two years later, we became best friends.
事实上，在那场比赛中击败我的孩子大卫·阿内特，两年后，我们成为了最好的朋友。
And for all of our childhood, we were on the same chess team and best friends, and I think he gave me the greatest gift of my competitive life by kicking my ass that game.
在我们整个童年时期，我们都是同一个国际象棋队的成员，也是最好的朋友，我认为他在那场比赛中踢了我的屁股，给了我竞技生涯中最伟大的礼物。
The most devastating loss of my chess life was, so I was 17 years old.
我的国际象棋生涯中最具毁灭性的损失是，那年我17岁。
I was competing in the World Under 18 Chess Championship in Szeged, Hungary.
我当时正在匈牙利塞格德参加世界 18 岁以下国际象棋锦标赛。
So every year, there's an under 12, 14, 16, 18, 21 world championship, and I was always representing the US in those tournaments around the world.
所以每年都会有12岁以下、14岁以下、16岁以下、18岁以下、21岁以下的世界锦标赛，我总是代表美国参加世界各地的比赛。
And I traveled to India or Brazil or Hungary or Germany or somewhere and compete in the world championship.
我去了印度、巴西、匈牙利、德国或其他地方，参加世界锦标赛。
And under 18 worlds, I played the tournament.
18岁以下世界赛，我参加了比赛。
I just was playing very inspired chess.
我只是在下非常有灵感的国际象棋。
I had just picked up, "On the Road," three weeks before, Jack Kerouac.
三周前我刚刚拿起杰克·凯鲁亚克的《在路上》。
I was just on fire with Kerouac's vision, and I was just so appreciating life with this freshness and intensity than I'd ever had, more than I'd ever had.
我对凯鲁亚克的愿景着迷，我比以往任何时候都更加欣赏生活的新鲜感和强度。
I was totally on fire, in chess, in life, in love, in everything.
我对国际象棋、生活、爱情、一切都充满热情。
And I was paired against Peter Svidler, who was the Russian.
我的对手是俄罗斯人彼得·斯维德勒。
We were on the first board, last round.
上一轮我们是第一块板。
We were playing for the world championship.
我们正在为世界冠军而战。
Every country sends their national champion, so it's a long tournament to get there.
每个国家都会派出自己的国家冠军，所以要到达那里需要很长时间的比赛。
Early in the game, I think it was move 12, he offered me a draw.
比赛一开始，我认为是第 12 步，他给了我一个平局。
So if I'd accepted the draw offer, it would've been the tie breaks.
因此，如果我接受平局提议，那将会是抢七局。
I didn't know exactly what was happening, but I thought that he was slightly favored in tie breaks.
我不知道到底发生了什么，但我认为他在抢七局中稍微占优势。
I wasn't sure, but basically, the world championship would be determined, or the gold medal would be determined by how our opponents in previous rounds did in the last round.
我不确定，但基本上，世界冠军，或者金牌，将根据我们前几轮的对手最后一轮的表现来决定。
But I hadn't calculated it out before, but I had a feeling, maybe it was like 40-60 or 30-70 against me.
但我之前没有计算过，但我有一种感觉，也许对我来说是40-60或30-70。
But it was my style.
但这是我的风格。
I never accept a draw first.
我从不先接受平局。
That wasn't my style.
那不是我的风格。
I always wanted to fight.
我一直想战斗。
So I declined, pushed for a win.
所以我拒绝了，争取胜利。
Now, the beauty of his decision was also he offered me a draw in the critical position where I had to make a very specific decision, which is a trick that chess players play on one another, which is that if you're-- We should talk about tension at one point.
现在，他的决定的美妙之处还在于，他在关键位置为我提供了平局，我必须做出一个非常具体的决定，这是国际象棋棋手互相玩的一个技巧，也就是说，如果你——我们应该在某个时刻谈论紧张局势。
It's a really beautiful theme to explore in different sports.
这是在不同运动中探索的一个非常美丽的主题。
So one thing that happens in chess games is that you have this building tension between minds, and often the tension on the chessboard and the tension on the minds are mounting together.
因此，在国际象棋游戏中发生的一件事是，思想之间的紧张感不断增强，而且棋盘上的紧张感和思想上的紧张感通常会同时增加。
And the urge, the need to release psychological tension often leads to the decision to release chess tension in the chess pieces.
而这种冲动、释放心理紧张的需要往往会导致棋子决定释放棋子紧张。
And when you release chess tension, usually the person who releases the tension will be on the wrong side of tactics.
当你释放国际象棋紧张时，通常释放紧张的人会站在战术的错误一边。
So a lot of the chess game is about putting mental pressure on the opponent to force them to break the tension on the chessboard.
所以很多国际象棋比赛都是给对手施加精神压力，迫使他们打破棋盘上的紧张。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
So in that game, he offered me a draw.
所以在那场比赛中，他给了我一个平局。
So you think about it, we're 17 years old, we're 10 days into a world championship battle.
所以你想一下，我们已经 17 岁了，距离世界冠军之战还有 10 天。
Even no matter how much we love the battle, some piece of ourselves wants a way out.
即使我们多么热爱这场战斗，我们内心的某些部分还是想要一条出路。
We want to release the tension.
我们想释放紧张情绪。
Right?
正确的？
It's just elemental to who we are when we're living with that much pressure.
当我们生活在如此大的压力下时，这对我们来说是至关重要的。
So all I have to do then is accept the draw, shake hands, and the tournament's over, and then it's out of our hands what happens.
所以我所要做的就是接受抽签，握手，比赛就结束了，然后发生的事情就不再由我们掌控了。
So in that moment, I have to also make a critical chess position.
所以在那一刻，我也必须做出一个关键的棋局。
So the urge to release the tension is subtly entering into my chess decision.
因此，释放紧张情绪的冲动正在巧妙地影响我的棋局决策。
And in that move, I declined the draw, and I made a slightly overaggressive move, which turned, and he ended up playing a beautiful game, big attack, beating me.
在那一步棋中，我拒绝了平局，我做了一个稍微有点过于激进的棋步，结果发生了逆转，他最终打出了一场漂亮的比赛，大力进攻，击败了我。
I lose the world championship just this close to your dream, and you're shattered.
我在距离你的梦想如此之近的地方失去了世界冠军，你心碎了。
Right?
正确的？
I then went and hitchhiked across Eastern Europe to meet my girlfriend at the time in a little town in Slovenia, and then we broke up.
然后我搭便车穿越东欧去斯洛文尼亚的一个小镇见我当时的女朋友，然后我们分手了。
Then ended up meeting again on a street corner in Brazil at the World Under 21 Championship three weeks later.
三周后，在巴西 21 岁以下世界锦标赛上，我们再次在巴西的街角相遇。
Lots of drama, being a 17-year-old kid.
作为一个17岁的孩子，有很多戏剧性。
I didn't study that chess loss for two and a half months.
我两个半月没有研究那场国际象棋的失利。
It was so painful to me.
这对我来说太痛苦了。
I always studied games immediately afterwards, and you might study a chess game for anywhere between three and 15 hours studying one chess game, and that, say, 10 hours is focused on the two or three critical positions of the game.
我总是在事后立即研究棋局，你可能会花 3 到 15 个小时研究棋局，研究一场棋局，比如说，10 个小时专注于棋局的两到三个关键位置。
And this was before chess computers were rampant, and you had chess engines that could always just tell you the answer to the move.
那是在国际象棋计算机猖獗之前，你拥有的国际象棋引擎总是可以告诉你走棋的答案。
That's also something we should talk about later, how chess engines and AI chess engines change the nature of who chess players are, because you can have the answer right away versus having to sit in cognitive and emotional dissonance for sometimes weeks or months at a time without knowing the answer.
这也是我们稍后应该讨论的事情，国际象棋引擎和人工智能国际象棋引擎如何改变国际象棋棋手的本质，因为你可以立即得到答案，而不是有时不得不在认知和情感失调中呆上几周或几个月而不知道答案。
But we'll come back to that maybe.
但我们也许会回过头来讨论这个问题。
So I didn't study that loss for two and a half months because it was so painful to me.
所以我在两个半月的时间里没有研究那次损失，因为它对我来说太痛苦了。
Then my family spent a lot of time at sea, which was an interesting part of my life and my chess life, living on a little boat, catching our own food, doing our own engine work.
然后我的家人在海上度过了很多时间，这是我生活和国际象棋生活中有趣的一部分，住在一条小船上，自己捕捉食物，做我们自己的发动机工作。
And I was at sea after competing in both of those world championships and some other things, and I sat down to study that game, and I spent dozen plus hours studying that one critical position of the game.
在参加了两次世界锦标赛和其他一些事情之后，我在海上，我坐下来研究那场比赛，我花了十几个小时研究比赛的一个关键位置。
And then I realized the move I should've made was outside of my conceptual scheme in that critical position.
然后我意识到我应该采取的行动超出了我在那个关键位置的概念计划。
I wasn't ready to make the move I had to make.
我还没有准备好采取我必须采取的行动。
And he was also, I think, a slightly stronger chess player than me.
我认为，他也是一位比我稍强的棋手。
I was a great fighter.
我是一名伟大的战士。
I love the battle, but I think objectively he was a better-- His name is Peter Svidler.
我喜欢这场战斗，但我认为客观上他是一个更好的人——他的名字叫彼得·斯维德勒。
He ended up becoming a world-class grandmaster and is just an incredible chess player today.
他最终成为了世界级的特级大师，如今还是一名令人难以置信的国际象棋棋手。
At the time, he was just amazingly brilliant, beautiful fluid mind.
那时，他才华横溢、思维敏捷。
But I was confident going into the game.
但我对参加比赛充满信心。
So I had to make this move that would essentially be his attack was on the king side, my expansion was on the queen side.
所以我必须做出这样的举动，本质上是他的攻击在国王一侧，我的扩张在皇后一侧。
I had to remove my final defensive piece from in front of my king, away from my king side, which is super counterintuitive because you think you wanted to defend your king.
我必须从我的国王面前移走我的最后一个防御棋子，远离我的国王一侧，这是非常违反直觉的，因为你认为你想保卫你的国王。
What I didn't realize is harnessing the power of empty space against aggression.
我没有意识到的是利用虚空的力量来对抗侵略。
His attack needed my defense like fire needs fuel to burn.
他的攻击需要我的防守，就像火需要燃料才能燃烧一样。
Moving my last defensive piece, his attack couldn't break through.
移动了我最后的防御棋子，他的攻击却无法突破。
But that principle was something I didn't understand at all.
但这个道理我根本不明白。
And so it's not like I would have found that move.
所以我不可能找到那个动作。
But it was a real pop in my mind, right?
但这在我的脑海里确实很流行，对吧？
So then I was 17, 18 years old, and then a year later, I started studying Tai Chi.
然后我17、18岁，然后一年后，我开始学习太极拳。
Started studying Taoist meditation, Taoist philosophy, the Tao Te Ching, Chuang Tzu, Lao Tzu, the inner chapters.
开始学习道家禅修、道家哲学、《道德经》、《庄子》、《老子》、《内经》。
And then I get into Tai Chi.
然后我就开始练习太极拳。
I started moving meditation, then I started Tai Chi Chuan, push hands.
我开始动静心，然后我开始打太极拳、推手。
Without making the connection, push hands is the martial art, which is the essence of push hands is learning to utilize empty space against aggression.
没有联系，推手就是武术，推手的本质就是学会利用虚空对抗进攻。
But I hadn't connected it to that moment.
但我并没有把它和那一刻联系起来。
Then you fast-forward to 2004 World Championship, which is what "The Art of Learning" ended with.
然后快进到 2004 年世界锦标赛，这就是“学习的艺术”的结尾。
The final chapter of that is the World Championship finals.
最后一章是世界锦标赛决赛。
I'm fighting this guy bigger than me, stronger than me.
我正在和这个比我更大、比我更强的家伙战斗。
He's been training since childhood.
他从小就开始训练。
Final fight in a big stadium, everyone wanting me to be destroyed in the biggest fight of my life.
在一个大体育场里进行最后的战斗，每个人都希望我在我一生中最大的战斗中被摧毁。
And I won that fight by harnessing the power of empty space, by letting him feel my weakness, by leaning on him, and then disappearing.
我通过利用虚空的力量，让他感受到我的弱点，靠在他身上，然后消失，赢得了这场战斗。
So it's very interesting how there's no conscious processing of that connection.
因此，非常有趣的是，这种联系是没有有意识地处理的。
But the biggest loss of my chess life, and then the principle, which I wasn't ready to understand yet, was how I won the world championship in the martial arts so many years later in a completely different discipline.
但我的国际象棋生涯中最大的损失，以及我还没有准备好理解的原则，是我如何在多年后以完全不同的学科赢得了武术世界冠军。
Right?
正确的？
So it's an example of, and of course, that principle is manifest in every part of my life today.
所以这是一个例子，当然，这一原则在我今天生活的各个方面都得到了体现。
But that's one of many stories in my life where a loss spurs an insight which might consciously or often unconsciously lead to something incredible down the road.
但这只是我生命中的许多故事之一，在这些故事中，损失激发了一种洞察力，这种洞察力可能有意识地或经常无意识地导致未来发生令人难以置信的事情。
And I think that one of the biggest challenges that we have, it's so interesting that the loss of a world chess championship final leads to the win.
我认为我们面临的最大挑战之一是，非常有趣的是，世界国际象棋锦标赛决赛的失败却带来了胜利。
Direct lesson leads to the win of a world championship in the fighting realm, and how common that is.
直接的教训会导致在格斗领域赢得世界冠军，这是多么普遍的事情。
And one of the things that I think about, like when you sit down with great competitors, again and again, when you hear their inner journey, the most heartbreaking losses lead to the transformational change which leads to the biggest wins of their life.
我想到的一件事是，就像当你一次又一次地与伟大的竞争对手坐下来时，当你听到他们的内心旅程时，最令人心碎的损失会带来转型性的改变，从而带来他们一生中最大的胜利。
Whether it's in basketball, whether it's in fighting, whether it's in business, it's in finance, it's in writing.
无论是篮球、格斗、商业、金融、写作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Love.
爱。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
And love.
还有爱。
Oh my God, and love.
天哪，还有爱。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, breakups are devastating.
我的意思是，分手是毁灭性的。
They're a death of sorts.
他们是某种意义上的死亡。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。
AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens.
AG1 是一种维生素矿物质益生菌饮料，还包含益生元和适应原。
AG1 is designed to cover all of your foundational nutritional needs, and it tastes great.
AG1 旨在满足您所有的基本营养需求，而且味道极佳。
Now, I've been drinking AG1 since 2012, and I started doing that at a time when my budget for supplements was really limited.
现在，我从 2012 年开始饮用 AG1，当时我的补充剂预算非常有限。
In fact, I only had enough money back then to purchase one supplement, and I'm so glad that I made that supplement AG1.
事实上，当时我的钱只够购买一种补充剂，我很高兴我制作了这款补充剂 AG1。
The reason for that is even though I strive to eat most of my foods from whole foods and minimally processed foods, it's very difficult for me to get enough fruits, vegetables, vitamins and minerals, micronutrients, and adaptogens from food alone.
原因是，尽管我努力吃天然食品和最低限度加工食品中的大部分食物，但我很难仅从食物中获取足够的水果、蔬菜、维生素和矿物质、微量营养素和适应原。
And I need to do that in order to ensure that I have enough energy throughout the day, I sleep well at night, and keep my immune system strong.
我需要这样做，以确保我全天有足够的能量，晚上睡得好，并保持我的免疫系统强大。
But when I take AG1 daily, I find that all aspects of my health, my physical health, my mental health, and my performance, both cognitive and physical, are better.
但是当我每天服用 AG1 时，我发现我的健康各方面，我的身体健康，我的心理健康，以及我的认知和身体表现都更好了。
I know that because I've had lapses when I didn't take AG1, and I certainly felt the difference.
我知道这一点，因为我在不参加 AG1 的时候也曾犯过错误，而且我确实感受到了其中的不同。
I also notice, and this makes perfect sense given the relationship between the gut microbiome and the brain, that when I regularly take AG1, which for me means a serving in the morning or mid-morning and again later in the afternoon or evening, that I have more mental clarity and more mental energy.
我还注意到，考虑到肠道微生物组和大脑之间的关系，这是完全合理的，当我定期服用 AG1（对我来说意味着早上或上午服用一次，下午或晚上再次服用）时，我的思维更加清晰，精力更加充沛。
If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1，可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 申请特别优惠。
For this month only, January 2025, AG1 is giving away 10 free travel packs and a year's supply of vitamin D3 K2.
仅在 2025 年 1 月这个月，AG1 赠送 10 个免费旅行包和一年的维生素 D3 K2。
Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim the 10 free travel packs and a year's supply of vitamin D3 K2.
再次访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 领取 10 个免费旅行包和一年的维生素 D3 K2。
Again, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim the 10 free travel packs and a year's supply of vitamin D3 K2.
再次访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 领取 10 个免费旅行包和一年的维生素 D3 K2。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Joovv.
今天的节目也是Joovv给我们带来的。
Joovv makes medical-grade red light therapy devices.
Joovv 生产医疗级红光治疗设备。
Now, if there's one thing that I have consistently emphasized on this podcast, it's the incredible impact that light can have on our biology.
现在，如果我在这个播客中一直强调一件事，那就是光对我们的生物学产生的令人难以置信的影响。
Now, in addition to sunlight, red light and near-infrared light have been shown to have positive effects on improving numerous aspects of cellular and organ health, including faster muscle recovery, improved skin health and wound healing, improvements in acne, meaning reductions in acne, reduced pain and inflammation, improved mitochondrial function, and even improving visual function itself.
现在，除了阳光之外，红光和近红外光已被证明对改善细胞和器官健康的许多方面具有积极作用，包括更快的肌肉恢复、改善皮肤健康和伤口愈合、改善痤疮，这意味着减少痤疮、减轻疼痛和炎症、改善线粒体功能，甚至改善视觉功能本身。
What sets Joovv lights apart and why they're my preferred red light therapy device is that they use clinically proven wavelengths, meaning specific wavelengths of red light and near-infrared light in specific combinations to trigger the optimal cellular adaptations.
Joovv 灯的与众不同之处以及它们成为我首选红光治疗设备的原因在于它们使用经过临床验证的波长，这意味着特定波长的红光和近红外光以特定的组合来触发最佳的细胞适应。
Personally, I use the Joovv whole body panel about three to four times per week, typically in the morning, but sometimes in the afternoon, and I use the Joovv handheld light both at home and when I travel.
就我个人而言，我每周大约使用 Joovv 全身面板三到四次，通常是在早上，但有时在下午，我在家和旅行时都会使用 Joovv 手持灯。
If you'd like to try Joovv, you can go to Joovv, spelled J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Joovv，可以访问 Joovv，拼写为 J-O-O-V-V，.com/huberman。
Joovv is offering an exclusive discount to all Huberman Lab listeners with up to $400 off select Joovv products.
Joovv 向所有 Huberman Lab 听众提供独家折扣，精选 Joovv 产品最高可享受 400 美元的折扣。
Again, that's Joovv, J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman to get up to $400 off.
同样，Joovv、J-O-O-V-V、.com/huberman 可享受高达 400 美元的折扣。
I have a friend who's a trauma therapist, addiction expert, and occasionally you'll hear these tragedies of, typically it's young guys who, the girlfriend breaks up with them and they commit suicide.
我有一个朋友，他是创伤治疗师、成瘾专家，偶尔你会听到这些悲剧，通常是年轻人，女朋友与他们分手，然后他们自杀了。
And for years, he would work with families of these people, these young guys, and he finally connected the dots, and he realized that in every case, it was as if there was no future whatsoever because it was their first relationship.
多年来，他一直与这些人、这些年轻人的家人一起工作，他终于把这些点联系起来，他意识到在每一种情况下，都好像没有任何未来，因为这是他们的第一次关系。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And when you hear it, you just go, "Oh, it makes so much sense." But the 16-year-old, 18-year-old brain, however old these kids were, it's devastating.
当你听到它时，你就会说：“哦，这很有道理。”但 16 岁、18 岁的大脑，无论这些孩子多大，都是毁灭性的。
I want to make sure that I ask about devastation because you said that you were devastated.
我想确保我问的是毁灭，因为你说你被毁灭了。
You experienced a tremendous amount of pain from these losses, in particular the one that you just described.
您因这些损失而经历了巨大的痛苦，尤其是您刚才描述的损失。
If you don't mind, I'd like to ask you about what that was like.
如果你不介意的话，我想问问你那是什么感觉。
I don't want to spin off into a discussion about the science of grief, but I did an episode about grief, and it was really surprising to learn that most of what you hear about in pop culture, that there are these very specific stages of grief, and you progress through them linearly.
我不想讨论关于悲伤的科学，但我做了一个关于悲伤的剧集，当你得知你在流行文化中听到的大部分内容时，我真的很惊讶，悲伤有这些非常具体的阶段，并且你会线性地经历这些阶段。
None of that is true.
这些都不是真的。
All of modern research says that it's not disbelief, anger, acceptance.
所有现代研究都表明，这不是怀疑、愤怒或接受。
It's like a hodgepodge of different emotions depending on time of day and middle of the night.
这就像一天中不同时间和半夜不同情绪的大杂烩。
But the core feature, and I find this so interesting, is that grief, whether or not it's what I would consider kind of trivial grief, like losing your favorite pen or a watch that you really love, okay, an object versus somebody extremely close to you, a parent, a loved one, a child, God forbid, that the brain systems that map memory onto action are disrupted in grief, such that you wake up each day and you want to go see the person or call them.
但核心特征，我发现这很有趣，是悲伤，无论它是否是我认为的微不足道的悲伤，比如失去了你最喜欢的笔或你真正喜欢的手表，好吧，一个物体与你非常亲近的人，父母，亲人，孩子，上帝保佑，将记忆映射到行动的大脑系统在悲伤中被破坏，这样你每天醒来，你想去见那个人或给他们打电话。
And so what grief really represents is a remapping of your understanding about what you can do with your physical body to create action and interaction with this person that's now gone.
因此，悲伤真正代表的是你对自己的理解的重新映射，即你可以用你的身体做什么来与这个现在已经去世的人进行行动和互动。
And so the remapping is one of the nervous system having to do all this no-go.
因此，重新映射是必须完成所有这些禁忌的神经系统之一。
We talk in terms of inaction systems in the basal ganglia of the brain.
我们谈论的是大脑基底神经节的不活动系统。
You have go programs and no-go programs.
你有可行的程序和不可行的程序。
There's some other stuff too, but it's mostly go or no-go.
还有一些其他的东西，但主要是进行或不进行。
And basically, grief is this taking of a Depending on how long and how deeply you knew the person, a tremendous amount of neural real estate and algorithms that were all go.
基本上，悲伤是一种取决于你了解这个人的时间和深度，大量的神经空间和算法都消失了。
You could text them, you could call them, you could hug them, you could kiss them, you could listen to them, you could smell them, and now it's all no-go.
你可以给他们发短信，你可以给他们打电话，你可以拥抱他们，你可以亲吻他们，你可以听他们说话，你可以闻他们的味道，但现在一切都不再可行了。
And that, we think is what we experience as grief.
我们认为这就是我们所经历的悲伤。
Now, in terms of losing a very important chess match, when you talk about being in pain and in grief, what was that like?
现在，就输掉一场非常重要的国际象棋比赛而言，当你谈论痛苦和悲伤时，那是什么样的感觉？
Did that mean sleepless nights, disbelief?
这是否意味着不眠之夜、难以置信？
And at what point do you think you were able to say, "Okay, you know what?
你认为什么时候你可以说：“好吧，你知道吗？
I'm going to start thinking about this constructively.
我将开始建设性地思考这个问题。
I'm going to turn this into a go," as opposed to just trying to get in your time machine and travel back in time, which of course is impossible.
我要把这变成一次尝试，”而不是仅仅试图进入你的时间机器并回到过去，这当然是不可能的。
What was that early experience of devastation like, and how did it transmute into growth?
早期的破坏经历是什么样的？它是如何转化为成长的？
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, even sitting with you now thinking about it, it seems ridiculous for losing a chess game to be anywhere near the absolute heartbreak of losing a loved one.
好吧，即使现在坐在你身边想一想，输掉一场国际象棋比赛与失去亲人绝对令人心碎似乎很荒谬。
And yet we can make things very large in our minds and in our beings, right?
然而，我们可以在我们的思想和我们的存在中把事物变得非常大，对吧？
One thing I think about is how hard we fight to maintain our conceptual schemes, our identities, even if they're torturing us, right?
我想到的一件事是，我们如何努力维护我们的概念方案、我们的身份，即使它们正在折磨我们，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And loss isn't relative.
而且损失不是相对的。
I mean, the fact that we're sitting right now not far from hundreds, if not thousands of homes that have been wiped away, doesn't change other losses.
我的意思是，事实上我们现在距离数百甚至数千所被摧毁的房屋不远，但这并不能改变其他损失。
We sometimes will say, I have a lot of friends that lost their homes, they'll say, "Well, at least we have our health, we have our things." Okay.
我们有时会说，我有很多朋友失去了家园，他们会说，“好吧，至少我们有健康，我们有东西。”好的。
And so we can do this, but it's not how the human emotion system responds reflexively to our own losses.
所以我们可以做到这一点，但这不是人类情感系统对我们自己的损失做出反射性反应的方式。
So I don't think it's dismissive or sociopathic to experience a big loss in one's life as a big loss, even if it's not the worst possible loss.
因此，我不认为将生命中的重大损失视为重大损失是不屑一顾或反社会的，即使这不是最糟糕的损失。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's just not how we're wired.
这不是我们的接线方式。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Right.
对。
And one of the things that I reflect on and that I've cultivated, it's very hard, but that I work to cultivate is when you're in those moments of rupture, to both be in the rupture and have the perspective that we will have later about the rupture.
我反思并培养的一件事是，这非常困难，但我努力培养的是，当你处于破裂的时刻时，既要处于破裂之中，又要有我们稍后会对破裂有的看法。
Which is not to say not being in the rupture.
这并不是说没有处于破裂之中。
One of the things I feel badly about in, like when I wrote "The Art of Learning," I spoke a lot about process and outcome, and it had a big impact on the chess world.
其中一件事让我感觉很糟糕，比如当我写《学习的艺术》时，我谈到了很多关于过程和结果的内容，这对国际象棋世界产生了很大的影响。
And then what happened is there were generations of parents who had young kid chess players, who their kids would go to compete, and the parents would say, "It doesn't matter if you win or lose.
然后发生的事情是，几代父母都有年幼的孩子棋手，他们的孩子会去参加比赛，父母会说：“输赢并不重要。
All that matters is the process.
重要的是过程。
It doesn't matter if you win or lose." And the kids are putting on their armor to go to battle, mental battle, and chess is fucking intense.
不管你赢还是输都没关系。”孩子们穿上盔甲去战斗，心理战，国际象棋真是太激烈了。
When you're playing chess, you're putting your mind, your body, your psyche, everything on the line.
当你下棋时，你要把你的思想、你的身体、你的心灵，以及一切都置于危险之中。
And if you lose, you feel shattered.
如果你输了，你会感到崩溃。
That's just how you feel.
这就是你的感受。
If you're not trying your hardest, then we shouldn't even be talking about you.
如果你没有尽最大努力，那么我们甚至不应该谈论你。
So let's say you are trying your hardest, you're putting it all on the line.
所以，假设你正在尽最大努力，你正在全力以赴。
It's on the line, and you lose, and you're shattered.
它就在一线，你输了，你就崩溃了。
Every part of you, you feel destroyed.
你感觉自己的每一部分都被摧毁了。
So the kids are putting on their armor to go to battle, and the parent tells them, "It doesn't matter if I win or lose." It's deeply confusing.
于是孩子们穿上铠甲上阵，家长告诉他们：“我输赢都没关系。”这让人非常困惑。
And the kids actually usually know that the parents are full of shit.
事实上，孩子们通常都知道父母都是一派胡言。
The parents actually care so much, and they feel guilty about how much they care about their kid's result.
父母实际上非常关心孩子的成绩，他们为自己如此关心孩子的成绩而感到内疚。
They're telling their kid that to feel less guilty about the fact that they're putting their own egoic needs on their child, and the kids see it all.
他们告诉孩子，为了减少对自己将自我需求强加给孩子的负罪感，孩子们看到了这一切。
That's the hilarious thing is, again, an eight, 10, 11-year-old, they see it all, and they're like, "Mom, give me a break." And the parents are just stuck in their guilt and absurdity.
有趣的是，再一次，一个八岁、十岁、十一岁的孩子，他们看到了这一切，他们就像，“妈妈，让我休息一下。”而父母只是陷入了他们的内疚和荒谬之中。
Seen this so many times.
这个见过很多次了。
So, the discussion of process and outcome is so subtle, right?
那么，过程和结果的讨论是如此微妙，对吗？
Because yes, it's about the process, it's about the journey, it's about the long-term process.
因为是的，这与过程有关，与旅程有关，与长期过程有关。
But if we don't care about the results, the process won't work.
但如果我们不关心结果，这个过程就行不通。
So we need to put ourselves on the line enough to be shattered, and the process is what really matters.
所以我们需要让自己处于足够的危险之中，而过程才是真正重要的。
But it's not that we can liberate ourselves from caring enough to be shattered, because then we're not engaged.
但这并不是说我们可以将自己从关心中解放出来，以至于崩溃，因为那样我们就不再投入了。
And it is something about putting our egos on the line that is what leads to the growth surges that great competitors have, the ones who become virtuosos, right?
正是把我们的自我置于危险之中，才导致伟大的竞争对手的增长激增，那些成为大师的人，对吗？
And so then that stated, how can we experience the simultaneity of being shattered and having the perspective that this is probably the greatest thing that ever happened to me?
那么，话虽如此，我们如何才能在经历破碎的同时，同时拥有这可能是发生在我身上最伟大的事情的观点呢？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, you have to be in a mode of theory of mind with yourself about your future self somehow.
好吧，你必须以某种方式对自己进行心理理论模式，了解未来的自己。
And this is what I think losses are so beneficial for, is that if you've had a couple of breakups, you realize that you can fall in love again.
我认为这就是损失如此有益的原因，那就是如果你经历过几次分手，你就会意识到你可以再次坠入爱河。
If you've only had breakups, perhaps you think, "Well, it always leads to a breakup," but you know that the process of moving forward is the only way to test that hypothesis again.
如果你只经历过分手，也许你会想，“好吧，它总是会导致分手”，但你知道继续前进的过程是再次检验该假设的唯一方法。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so I think repeated failure is essential, right?
所以我认为反复失败是必要的，对吗？
Because with repeated failure means that there was also repeated fighting one's way back after failure.
因为一次次的失败，意味着也有一次次的失败后的奋起反抗。
So, yeah, I think sometimes, not to take us into a different course of story, but just very briefly, the first manuscript I ever submitted in graduate school took forever to get published.
所以，是的，我有时想，不是为了让我们进入一个不同的故事过程，而是非常简单地，我在研究生院提交的第一份手稿花了很长时间才发表。
And it went from the highest of journals down to a good journal, solid journal, but it took forever, and that was so beneficial.
它从最高的期刊降级为优秀期刊，可靠的期刊，但它花了很长时间，这是非常有益的。
I was crushing at the time, but my reward circuitry is built up around very long latency between effort and final outcome.
当时我很崩溃，但我的奖励电路是围绕努力和最终结果之间很长的延迟建立的。
I'm just used to long waits between figuring out what's going to happen.
我只是习惯了在弄清楚将要发生的事情之间等待很长时间。
And actually, one of the weirdest things about podcasting or social media is that I feel like you go to, quote-unquote, "to publication so fast." It's like, whoa.
事实上，播客或社交媒体最奇怪的事情之一是，我觉得你“这么快就出版了”。就像，哇。
Projects used to take two years, and then you get reviews and then this.
项目过去需要两年时间，然后你会得到评论，然后就是这个。
So I think your early devastating failure or failures, because you had a few of them in there at least-
所以我认为你早期的毁灭性失败或失败，因为你至少有一些失败——
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Oh, a lot more than a few
哦，比几个多得多
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
probably set you up for tremendous frustration tolerance.
可能会让你对挫折有极大的忍耐力。
And this not just hearing, the words "This too shall pass," they're helpful, but that's really something that needs to be experienced in my view.
这不仅仅是听到，“这也会过去”这句话很有帮助，但在我看来，这确实是需要经历的事情。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
It's a very interesting thing when you're talking about competitors.
当你谈论竞争对手时，这是一件非常有趣的事情。
What is the right balance between playing up and playing down, right?
向上和向下之间的正确平衡是什么，对吗？
How much do you want to build the confidence of a young competitor or artist or person or any of us, young, whatever age?
你有多想为年轻的参赛者、艺术家、个人或我们中的任何一个人，无论年轻，无论年龄多大，建立信心？
When how much do you want to be stretched a little bit beyond your ability so that your weaknesses are exposed, you have to take them on, and you have to grow.
当你多么想超越自己的能力，让自己的弱点暴露出来时，你就必须接受它们，你必须成长。
And getting that balance right is hugely important.
实现这种平衡非常重要。
And it's not simple.
这并不简单。
A lot of boxing training camps are based around the boxer's confidence being everything, and you want them to feel invincible going into the ring, right?
许多拳击训练营都是以拳击手的自信为基础，你希望他们在进入拳击场时感到所向无敌，对吗？
And then from another perspective, it's something very powerful about having a training camp that's so intense that all your weaknesses are exposed, and you have to take them on.
然后从另一个角度来看，训练营的强度如此之大，以至于你所有的弱点都暴露出来，这是非常强大的，你必须接受它们。
If you're not sparring against people who can expose your weaknesses, then you don't know what they are, and you don't have the chance to grow, right?
如果你不和那些能暴露你弱点的人切磋，那么你就不知道他们是什么，你就没有机会成长，对吗？
I live at this point with trying to be at max stretch without snapping, right?
我现在的生活就是努力在不折断的情况下保持最大伸展，对吗？
For example, if I look at my foiling, if I'm not falling enough during a foil session, then I'm not pushing my turns hard enough.
例如，如果我观察我的花剑比赛，如果我在花剑比赛中跌倒的次数不够多，那么我的转身力度不够。
If you're just succeeding all the time, then you're not pushing yourself enough.
如果你一直都在成功，那么你就没有对自己施加足够的压力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you believe in optimal levels of arousal for different aspects of practice or game?
您是否相信练习或比赛不同方面的最佳唤醒水平？
Autonomic arousal is something that I've worked on for many years and one of the most impressive features I think of our brains as humans.
自主唤醒是我多年来研究的课题，也是我认为人类大脑最令人印象深刻的特征之一。
First would be our ability to think into the past, present, or future, or combination of those two.
首先是我们思考过去、现在、未来或两者结合的能力。
If other animals do that, they don't do it nearly as well, and they certainly don't create technologies to bridge those different time scales.
如果其他动物这样做，它们几乎不会这样做，而且它们当然不会创造技术来弥合这些不同的时间尺度。
That's number one.
这是第一。
But the other one is our visual and temporal aperture of focus.
但另一个是我们的视觉和时间焦点孔径。
So when we are in a state of elevated arousal, our visual aperture shrinks, I'm sure you're familiar with this, and we slice time more finely.
因此，当我们处于高度兴奋的状态时，我们的视野会缩小，我相信您对此很熟悉，并且我们会更精细地划分时间。
It's like a higher frame rate.
这就像更高的帧速率。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which is why people who, for instance, see a devastating traumatic car crash report experiencing things in slow motion, right?
这就是为什么人们看到一场毁灭性的创伤性车祸时会报告说经历了慢动作，对吗？
Because their frame rate is high like a slow-motion video.
因为它们的帧率很高，就像慢动作视频一样。
Whereas when we are relaxed, our frame rate is larger bins of time.
而当我们放松时，我们的帧速率会更大。
And I feel like so much of the discussion around things like flow and optimal states for learning have to do with assuming that there's one optimal state of arousal.
我觉得围绕心流和学习的最佳状态等问题的讨论都与假设存在一种最佳的唤醒状态有关。
But I feel like in every endeavor I've ever been involved in, it's about learning the transitions between the arousal states that allows us to pull back a little bit as things, as you said, get tense.
但我觉得，在我参与的每一项努力中，都是关于学习唤醒状态之间的转换，这使我们能够在事情变得紧张时稍微退缩一点。
Just relax just a little bit to be able to maybe see a different perspective or ratchet up our level of tension or AKA arousal in order to be able to fine slice the micro expressions of a competitor.
只要放松一点，也许就能看到不同的视角，或者提高我们的紧张程度或又称唤醒程度，以便能够精细地分析竞争对手的微表情。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
These two cameras on the fronts of our skull and the rest of our brain are really devoted to this process of shrinking or expanding the aperture of our consciousness.
我们头骨前面和大脑其他部分的这两个摄像头实际上致力于缩小或扩大我们意识孔径的过程。
And it can be talked about in terms of space, just vision, like tunnel vision versus panoramic vision.
它可以从空间、视觉的角度来讨论，就像隧道视觉与全景视觉一样。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It could be talked about as space, time.
它可以被谈论为空间、时间。
Tunnel vision, fine slice, panoramic vision, broader slice.
隧道视野、细切片、全景视野、更宽切片。
But then when you start getting into the, then you map that onto the past, present, and future mapping, and that's where I feel like we're into the game of skill learning and chess and strategy.
但是当你开始进入时，你就会将其映射到过去、现在和未来的映射上，这就是我觉得我们进入技能学习、国际象棋和策略游戏的地方。
So forgive me for the kind of top contour neuroscience distribution, but that's how I see the human primate as so different than all the other creatures in the world.
所以请原谅我的神经科学分布，但这就是我认为人类灵长类动物与世界上所有其他生物如此不同的原因。
That's how we're different, because we can learn chess or ballet, foil.
这就是我们的不同之处，因为我们可以学习国际象棋、芭蕾、花剑。
Gibbons are pretty amazing at what gibbons do, but if they're trying to learn other stuff that they've been failing so far.
长臂猿在长臂猿所做的事情上非常令人惊奇，但如果他们试图学习其他东西，他们到目前为止一直失败。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
I spent a lot of time playing with frame rates.
我花了很多时间研究帧速率。
And I had this experience that I wrote about in that slowing down time chapter of "The Art of Learning," where I, when I had these experiences both in chess and in fighting.
我在“学习的艺术”的放慢时间的章节中写下了这段经历，在那里我在国际象棋和格斗中都有过这些经历。
One time I was fighting against a super heavyweight dude in a competition, and my hand shattered.
有一次，我在一场比赛中与一位超重量级的家伙打斗，我的手摔碎了。
And I broke my hand right here.
我的手就在这里断了。
And it was interesting because the fight was very intense, reasonably hard, and my hand broke, and instantly time slowed down.
这很有趣，因为战斗非常激烈，相当艰苦，我的手断了，时间立刻变慢了。
And he was moving in slow motion.
他正在以慢动作移动。
And I was able to just so easily play with someone with a broken hand compared to what had been a war before.
与之前的战争相比，我能够轻松地与手受伤的人一起比赛。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We know what that is.
我们知道那是什么。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Right.
对。
We do know what that is.
我们确实知道那是什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's adrenaline.
这是肾上腺素。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Adrenaline.
肾上腺素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Adrenaline and that tunnel vision, and then the frames are so fast.
肾上腺素和狭隘的视野，然后帧是如此之快。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If I inject you with just a little bit of adrenaline, it stays in your periphery, but it activates systems in your brain in parallel to that.
如果我给你注射一点点肾上腺素，它会留在你的外周，但同时也会激活你大脑中的系统。
And you're going to experience an immediate dilation of your pupils.
你的瞳孔会立即放大。
You'll have more tunnel vision.
你会有更多的视野。
Every process is sped up in the direction of higher frame rate.
每个过程都朝着更高帧速率的方向加速。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
So then the question then became for me, and this would be fun to talk, I've never spoken to a scientist about this process.
那么问题就变成了我，这会很有趣，我从未与科学家谈论过这个过程。
How do I learn to do that at will?
我怎样才能学会随意做到这一点？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Right?
对吗？
And then how can I train, because I can't just pump myself with adrenaline all the time, although or maybe I can learn to have that physiological response.
然后我该如何训练，因为我不能一直用肾上腺素给自己泵血，尽管或者也许我可以学会产生这种生理反应。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You can deploy it.
您可以部署它。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Right.
对。
So then how can I deploy it, right?
那么我该如何部署它呢？
What are triggers for having that chemical change?
发生这种化学变化的触发因素是什么？
And then also how can I train so that I have the experience of more frames than my opponent.
然后我该如何训练才能比对手拥有更多的局数经验。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
And so Marcelo Garcia, he's known as the King of the Scramble.
马塞洛·加西亚（Marcelo Garcia）被称为争夺之王。
He spends his whole time in transition.
他的整个时间都在过渡中。
So if you're training jujitsu with most people, they're always finding a position and holding it.
因此，如果你和大多数人一起训练柔术，他们总是会找到一个位置并保持住它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Marcelo, one of the unique things about his training life for most of his life was that he never held positions.
马塞洛，他一生大部分训练生涯的独特之处之一就是他从未担任过职务。
He was always moving.
他总是在移动。
He was always in the in-between.
他总是处于中间。
And it's true in most arts, is that people think that the art is the positions that they see, but the real high-level art is the space in between the positions.
在大多数艺术中，人们认为艺术是他们所看到的位置，但真正的高水平艺术是位置之间的空间。
So if we have this position, leads to this position, there's going to be no frames in between for most people.
因此，如果我们有这个位置，就会导致这个位置，对于大多数人来说，中间就没有框架了。
For some people, there might be four frames.
对于某些人来说，可能有四个框架。
But if I have 100 frames, then I can play in pockets that you don't see.
但如果我有 100 帧，那么我就可以在你看不到的口袋里玩。
And so if you're living your life in the training process, in the in-between, in the transition, the way that manifests in the actual, for example, jujitsu training or submission grappling training is, if you're not holding positions, you're always moving, then you're spending all of your time in the in-between, while people who are holding position are always static.
因此，如果你生活在训练过程中，在中间，在过渡中，那么在实际中体现的方式，例如柔术训练或降服擒拿训练是，如果你没有保持位置，你总是在移动，那么你将所有的时间都花在中间，而保持位置的人总是静止的。
So if you go to a jujitsu school and you sit and watch, it's interesting to look for this one thing.
因此，如果你去柔术学校并坐下来观看，寻找这一件事是很有趣的。
Notice the amount of time static versus in motion.
注意静态与运动的时间量。
Marcelo was always in motion.
马塞洛总是在运动。
There's a beautiful clip of him that people can look up.
人们可以查阅他的一段精彩片段。
It's in Arte Suave.
它位于Arte Suave。
It was an old documentary back in the day, 25 years ago I think it was.
这是一部很老的纪录片，我想是 25 年前的事了。
It's on YouTube.
它在 YouTube 上。
It's like an eight-minute clip of him training as, I think, an 18-year-old.
我想，这就像他 18 岁时训练的八分钟片段。
And you watch him, just in the early days of him learning this transitional approach, and he's just never stopping.
你观察他，就在他学习这种过渡方法的早期阶段，他从来没有停止过。
He's always allowing the person.
他总是允许这个人。
But you have to get past the egoic dynamics, because you're giving up on dominating people all the time.
但你必须克服自我的动力，因为你一直在放弃控制别人。
Because when you're in a dominant position in jujitsu, you want to hold it because you've won.
因为当你在柔术中处于主导地位时，你想要保持它，因为你赢了。
And there's all this bullshit passing between men who are fighting or women who are fighting each other.
在打架的男人或互相打架的女人之间流传着所有这些废话。
We want to dominate.
我们想要统治。
But if you release that and you're thinking about the learning process, and you stop holding, then you're moving, and then you're getting nonstop exposure to the in-between.
但如果你释放它，你正在思考学习过程，然后你停止持有，那么你就会移动，然后你就会不间断地接触到中间的情况。
So if you spend your life training in the in-between, then you have more frames than other people do.
因此，如果你一生都在这两者之间进行训练，那么你就会比其他人拥有更多的框架。
That's a lot of what illusionists are doing.
这就是魔术师所做的很多事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Right?
对吗？
They spend all of their time training in the spaces that other people don't look at.
他们把所有的时间都花在别人看不到的空间里训练。
And so it's not magic, it's brilliant training.
所以这不是魔法，而是精彩的训练。
It's the art of illusion at the in-between, right?
这是介于两者之间的幻觉艺术，对吗？
And a lot of the things that a high-level martial artist can do to a lower-level martial artist or someone who doesn't train that feels mystical, it's all about that principle manifest in interesting ways.
高级武术家可以对低级武术家或未受过训练的人做的很多事情感觉很神秘，这都是关于以有趣的方式体现的原则。
And in general, for me, and this goes back to the question you asked two or three brilliant, expansive questions ago around intense moments.
总的来说，对我来说，这又回到了你在紧张时刻之前提出的两三个精彩而广泛的问题。
A lot of what my training has been is having some serendipitous intense moment and then learning, and then it becomes a beacon.
我的很多训练都是有一些偶然的紧张时刻，然后学习，然后它就变成了灯塔。
So, for example, there was a moment I was playing in a world chess championship in Calicut, India, and I was deep into a calculation, couldn't find the solution, and then there was an earthquake.
举个例子，有一次我在印度卡利卡特参加世界象棋锦标赛，我陷入了深思熟虑，找不到解决方案，然后发生了地震。
In the actual world, everything started shaking, right?
现实世界里，一切都开始摇晃了吧？
But I experienced the earthquake from within inside of the chess position, and I knew there was an earthquake, but I also was lost.
但我从棋局内部经历了地震，我知道有地震，但我也迷失了。
My brain was lost in the labyrinth, and I found the solution.
我的大脑在迷宫中迷失了，我找到了解决办法。
And then I got up and left, vacated, because we had to leave the playing hall.
然后我起身离开，腾出空间，因为我们必须离开比赛大厅。
Then we came back, and I made my move and went on to win.
然后我们回来了，我采取了行动并继续获胜。
And it was so interesting.
这太有趣了。
And a lot of what happens in chess is that you're reaching so deep into the complexity, like into the cupboard, but the solution is right here at the front, and all you have to do is come back out and surface.
在国际象棋中发生的很多事情都是你深入到复杂性中，就像进入橱柜一样，但解决方案就在前面，你所要做的就是回来并浮出水面。
One of the best ways, by the way, to minimize chess blunders with talented young players or players of any age, is to shift the order of decide, make the move, and then write it down, because you notate your chess games.
顺便说一句，要最大限度地减少有才华的年轻棋手或任何年龄段棋手的国际象棋失误，最好的方法之一就是改变决定的顺序，采取行动，然后把它写下来，因为你记录了你的国际象棋比赛。
To decide, write it down, and then make the move.
要做出决定，请写下来，然后采取行动。
The write it down is a resurfacing, and you have common sense to look at the position.
把它写下来是一种重新铺面，你有常识来看待这个位置。
Almost all chess blunders, you realize you blundered instantly.
几乎所有的国际象棋失误，你都会立即意识到自己犯了失误。
You can think for 20 minutes, make your move, you know instantly you blundered, because there's not that surfacing, right?
你可以思考 20 分钟，然后采取行动，你立刻就知道你犯了错误，因为没有那么明显，对吧？
But then you can learn to just do the surfacing before making the actual move.
但随后您可以学会在进行实际移动之前先进行表面处理。
It's true with human decision-making in general.
一般来说，人类的决策也是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
We realize that the screw-up right as we-
我们意识到事情就搞砸了——
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
complete it.
完成它。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah, because we're caught up in all of our bullshit.
是的，因为我们陷入了所有的废话之中。
We make the move, and then we've left our thought process and like, "Oh, that was just absurd." Right?
我们采取行动，然后我们就离开了我们的思维过程，然后说：“哦，那太荒谬了。”正确的？
And we see it.
我们看到了。
I mean, you think about the heartbreaking literature, studies in how people who have jumped off a bridge relate to it the moment after they've jumped off the bridge, those who have survived, right?
我的意思是，你想想那些令人心碎的文献，研究那些跳下桥的人在跳下桥后的那一刻如何与那些幸存的人产生联系，对吗？
The interviews afterwards.
之后的采访。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, they report wishing they hadn't jumped.
是的，他们报告说希望自己没有跳下去。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Right.
对。
Immediately.
立即地。
Like they jump and then they wish they hadn't jumped.
就像他们跳了然后又希望自己没有跳一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Such an important message.
如此重要的信息。
We hear all this stuff about suicide prevention, but just that knowledge.
我们听到了所有关于预防自杀的内容，但只是这些知识。
I don't know how conscious of that sort of thing people are as they're headed down the trench of suicidal depression.
我不知道当人们陷入自杀抑郁症的深渊时，他们对这类事情的意识如何。
But these apertures that we're talking about, these time-space apertures where frame rate is set and visual aperture is set, I think for most people, we experience them as sort of notches.
但是我们正在谈论的这些光圈，这些设置帧速率和设置视觉光圈的时空光圈，我认为对于大多数人来说，我们将它们体验为某种凹口。
So it's like you're in a high state of arousal and you have high frame rate.
所以就好像你处于高度兴奋状态并且帧速率很高。
And just like being a ball bearing down in a trench, you can't really see out the other side.
就像在沟渠中滚动的滚珠一样，你无法真正看到另一边。
You're literally in there at a certain frame rate of, let's say, an argument, an intense argument with somebody where you want to win and you're frustrated with them and the whole situation, and you're in the trench.
你确实以一定的帧速率在那里，比方说，一场争论，一场与某人的激烈争论，你想赢，但你对他们和整个情况感到沮丧，你就在战壕里。
Whereas when you're relaxed, it's more like a broad concave or a flat table where the ball bearing can move around at will.
而当你放松时，它更像是一个宽阔的凹面或平坦的桌子，滚珠轴承可以在其中随意移动。
It sounds like Marcelo and people that train these different transition states is you're really learning to access the different frame rates, but from a place of a little dimple in a table.
听起来马塞洛和训练这些不同过渡状态的人实际上是在学习访问不同的帧速率，但是是从桌子上的一个小凹坑的地方开始的。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then being able to move to the next one as a dimple and kind of moving from dimple to dimple as opposed to these trenches of brain states.
然后能够作为一个酒窝移动到下一个，并且从一个酒窝移动到另一个酒窝，而不是这些大脑状态的沟渠。
And I think about this a lot, because I feel like most bad decisions are made from a high frame rate, high arousal state Most of the terrible things that humans have done to one another, I suppose there's sociopathy and pre-planned things, but they tend to be associated with high arousal states where people regret what they did.
我对此思考了很多，因为我觉得大多数糟糕的决定都是在高帧率、高唤醒状态下做出的。人类对彼此所做的大多数可怕的事情，我想都有反社会和预先计划的事情，但它们往往与高唤醒状态有关，在这种状态下，人们会后悔自己所做的事情。
All second-degree murder, for instance.
例如，所有二级谋杀。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In any event, I think the ability to move through these different arousal states at will is possible.
无论如何，我认为随意穿过这些不同的唤醒状态的能力是可能的。
You asked earlier, how would one do that?
您之前问过，如何做到这一点？
Well, the beautiful thing about the visual system and these different frame rates and states of arousal is that it works in both directions.
好吧，视觉系统以及这些不同的帧速率和唤醒状态的美妙之处在于它可以在两个方向上发挥作用。
So when you're in a higher state of arousal, your visual aperture shrinks, you go to a higher frame rate.
因此，当您处于较高的唤醒状态时，您的视野会缩小，帧速率也会更高。
But it's also true that if you shrink your visual aperture, you go to a higher frame rate.
但如果你缩小视觉孔径，你就会获得更高的帧速率，这也是事实。
The converse is also true if you deliberately, for instance, as we're looking across at one another right now, if I start to take in the fullness of the picture here, the walls, et cetera, there's a natural relaxation of the autonomic arousal system.
反之亦然，如果你有意识地，例如，当我们现在互相看着对方时，如果我开始欣赏这里的完整画面，墙壁等等，自主唤醒系统就会自然放松。
So our parasympathetic activity goes up, and what's incredible is that any time we view a horizon, that naturally happens because you're not setting to a single fixation point.
因此，我们的副交感神经活动增强了，令人难以置信的是，每当我们观看地平线时，这种情况都会自然发生，因为您没有设置为单个注视点。
So any time you see a horizon, you relax, and it's not a coincidence.
所以每当你看到地平线时，你就会放松下来，这并不是巧合。
So the visual system can drive it inward, and your autonomic arousal can drive it toward your visual system.
因此，视觉系统可以将其向内驱动，而您的自主唤醒可以将其推向您的视觉系统。
The other thing is there's a really beautiful paper that came out about two years ago, which showed that people who do a biofeedback game, where they're watching a little, it's kind of like a sine wave, and they're deliberately trying to increase their level of arousal as the curve goes up, for those that are just listening.
另一件事是，大约两年前发表了一篇非常漂亮的论文，其中表明，做生物反馈游戏的人，他们稍微观察一下，它有点像正弦波，对于那些只是在听的人来说，随着曲线上升，他们故意尝试提高他们的唤醒水平。
Within a few days, they can learn to control their pupil size, which sets their arousal and their aperture for a segment in time.
几天之内，他们就可以学会控制瞳孔大小，从而及时设置一段时间的唤醒度和光圈。
So you can learn this through biofeedback, and I think that the script for that is available online.
所以你可以通过生物反馈来学习这一点，我认为该脚本可以在网上找到。
I haven't tried it yet, but if you ever heard of these yogis that could control their pupil sizes even independently of one another, that's amazing because it's not supposed to be able to occur, but you can.
我还没有尝试过，但如果你听说过这些瑜伽士甚至可以独立地控制自己的瞳孔大小，那就太神奇了，因为这不应该发生，但你可以。
So you can learn to, I guess the poor man's version of this would be look in the mirror, stare at yourself, and try to ramp up your level of autonomic arousal, watch your pupils get bigger, and then try and relax yourself and make them smaller.
所以你可以学习，我想穷人的版本就是照镜子，盯着自己，尝试提高你的自主唤醒水平，看着你的瞳孔变大，然后尝试放松自己，让它们变小。
That practice, it seems, in biofeedback, allows people to do it without staring into the mirror, so to speak.
可以这么说，在生物反馈中，这种做法似乎允许人们在不盯着镜子的情况下做到这一点。
So it can be done.
所以这是可以做到的。
It's just that it hasn't been parsed by science that finally until recently.
只是直到最近才最终被科学解析。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
It's interesting.
这很有趣。
So I have this term I use called firewalking, which for me, what it means is cultivating the ability to learn from experiences one doesn't have with the same somatic intensity that one learns from really intense experiences that we have.
所以我用的这个术语叫做“火行”，对我来说，它的意思是培养一种能力，从一个人没有的经历中学习，就像从我们拥有的真正强烈的经历中学习一样，具有同样的身体强度。
So, for example, let's just say you're a jujitsu fighter and you overextend your arm and you're in a world championship and you get your arm broken or your shoulder ripped off or something.
举个例子，假设你是一名柔术选手，你过度伸展了手臂，而你参加了世界锦标赛，但你的手臂骨折了，肩膀被扯断了，或者发生了其他事情。
So you've lost the world championship, and you got a shattered arm.
所以你失去了世界冠军，而且你的手臂也骨折了。
You're not going to overextend your arm that way again.
你不会再那样过度伸展你的手臂了。
You've learned that lesson is burned in.
你已经知道这个教训已经铭刻在心了。
But if you're watching a jujitsu fight and someone overextends their arm and gets arm barred and then taps out, it is a very different experience.
但如果你在观看柔术比赛，有人过度伸展手臂，手臂被挡住，然后出拳，那就是一种非常不同的体验。
How can we cultivate the ability to study other people's worst, most heartbreaking blunders, worst moments, et cetera, and learn from that with the same somatic intensity that they learned from it, right?
我们怎样才能培养研究他人最糟糕、最令人心碎的错误、最糟糕的时刻等等的能力，并以与他们从中学到的同样的身体强度从中学习，对吗？
So much of that is physiological.
其中大部分是生理性的。
So I spent a lot of time doing biofeedback and a lot of time doing visualization practices and doing very intense visualization practices, and many years working with triggers for my own psychology and physiology, so that I can get my physiology primed to have an intense learning experience while studying something that might otherwise just feel intellectual.
因此，我花了很多时间做生物反馈、大量时间进行可视化练习和非常强烈的可视化练习，并且多年来一直致力于我自己的心理学和生理学的触发因素，这样我就可以让我的生理学做好准备，在学习一些原本可能只是感觉智力的东西的同时，获得强烈的学习体验。
And then combining that with my own experience of things.
然后将其与我自己的经历相结合。
And we can 100X or 1,000X or 10,000X our learning curve by being able to learn from other things with the same intensity that we've learned from our own things, but people don't harness that.
通过从其他事物中学习，我们可以将学习曲线提高 100 倍、1,000 倍或 10,000 倍，就像我们从自己的事物中学习一样，但人们并没有利用这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Why do you think they don't?
你认为他们为什么不这样做？
Is it, it takes time, and it doesn't seem as intuitive as going out and shooting free throws or something like the-
是吗，这需要时间，而且看起来不像出去罚球或者类似的事情那么直观——
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
I think people are really amazingly unreflective about the training process.
我认为人们对培训过程的不反思确实令人惊讶。
I told you, I haven't written a book since "The Art of Learning," and I'm a couple of years into this beautiful process of writing my next book, which is going to be called, I think, "The Art of Training," which is really what I've been cultivating for the last decades.
我告诉过你，自从《学习的艺术》之后我就再也没有写过一本书，而我已经花了几年的时间来写我的下一本书，我认为这本书将被称为“培训的艺术”，这确实是我过去几十年来一直在培养的。
And I'm deconstructing my approach to training in mental and physical disciplines.
我正在解构我的心理和身体训练方法。
And it's really interesting to go through that process myself, like what do I do?
我自己经历这个过程真的很有趣，比如我该怎么做？
What have I done?
我做了什么？
And what have I helped others do?
我帮助别人做了什么？
And it's interesting, like "The Art of Learning" kind of was a birthing process.
这很有趣，就像“学习的艺术”一样是一个诞生过程。
That's what it felt like to me.
这就是我的感觉。
I took notes to it for five years, and then after the 2004 Worlds, I wrote it in nine months.
我记了五年的笔记，2004 年世界赛之后，我用了九个月的时间写下了它。
It just kind of came out of me, and I'm kind of in that process now with this.
它只是从我身上发出来的，我现在正处于这个过程中。
So it feels really organic and intrinsic, the creative process.
所以感觉这个创作过程真的是有机的、内在的。
And I don't know.
我不知道。
It's very interesting when you talk to people who are really playing at elite levels of different fields or who are just below full self-expression, or they're just on the edge of virtuosity but not quite there, and you start to deconstruct what they do, there's so much low-hanging fruit that they can do.
当你与那些在不同领域真正达到精英水平的人，或者那些刚刚低于充分自我表达的人，或者他们只是处于精湛技艺的边缘但还没有完全达到的人交谈时，你开始解构他们所做的事情，这是非常有趣的，他们可以做很多容易实现的目标。
Why?
为什么？
I don't know.
我不知道。
I think in many ways, people...
我认为从很多方面来说，人们...
I mean, there's lots of reasons I think of, for one thing, people who are very talented in arts don't have to be so deliberate about their training often to reach a certain level.
我的意思是，我想到的原因有很多，一方面，在艺术方面非常有天赋的人不必经常刻意地进行训练来达到一定的水平。
Often, people have other people building their training process, and they're not reflective about their own training process because they have big teams of coaches who are creating it for them.
通常，人们会让其他人建立他们的培训流程，而他们不会反思自己的培训流程，因为他们有庞大的教练团队为他们创建培训流程。
People haven't cultivated the art of deconstruction, which is an art that's very important.
人们还没有培养解构艺术，这是一门非常重要的艺术。
People haven't cultivated the art of loving training, which is a hugely important meta-skill to learn.
人们还没有培养出热爱训练的艺术，而这是一项需要学习的非常重要的元技能。
People haven't taken on all of the skills around physiological triggers, around changing one's physiological state at will.
人们还没有掌握所有有关生理触发因素、随意改变生理状态的技能。
People haven't practiced visualization very intensely.
人们还没有非常强烈地练习观想。
There are all of these like-
所有这些都像——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
These skills that we can put together in order to train at a world-class level.
我们可以将这些技能整合起来，以便进行世界一流水平的培训。
But it takes patience and creativity, and not just being subject to what everyone else does, but being able to look expansively at everything.
但这需要耐心和创造力，不仅要受制于其他人的做法，还要能够广泛地看待一切。
I'd like to take a quick break and thank one of our sponsors, Function.
我想稍微休息一下，并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。
I recently became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.
在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我最近成为了 Function 成员。
While I've long been a fan of blood testing, I really wanted to find a more in-depth program for analyzing blood, urine, and saliva to get a full picture of my heart health, my hormone status, my immune system regulation, my metabolic function, my vitamin and mineral status, and other critical areas of my overall health and vitality.
虽然我长期以来一直热衷于血液检测，但我真的很想找到一个更深入的程序来分析血液、尿液和唾液，以全面了解我的心脏健康状况、我的激素状态、我的免疫系统调节、我的代谢功能、我的维生素和矿物质状态以及我整体健康和活力的其他关键领域。
Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors on your results.
Function 不仅提供对身心健康至关重要的 100 多种生物标志物的测试，还分析这些结果并提供顶级医生对结果的见解。
For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had too high levels of mercury in my blood.
例如，在我第一次使用 Function 进行测试时，我发现我的血液中汞含量过高。
This was totally surprising to me.
这让我完全惊讶。
I had no idea prior to taking the test.
参加考试之前我不知道。
Function not only helped me detect this, but offered medical doctor-informed insights on how to best reduce those mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, because I had been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, N-acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification, and worked to reduce my mercury levels.
功能不仅帮助我发现了这一点，而且还为我提供了关于如何最好地降低汞含量的医生知情见解，其中包括限制我的金枪鱼消费，因为我一直在吃大量金枪鱼，同时还努力吃更多的绿叶蔬菜并补充 NAC、N-乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都可以支持谷胱甘肽的产生和解毒，并努力降低我的汞含量。
Comprehensive lab testing like this is so important for health, and while I've been doing it for years, I've always found it to be overly complicated and expensive.
像这样的综合实验室测试对健康非常重要，虽然我已经这样做了很多年，但我总是发现它过于复杂和昂贵。
I've been so impressed by Function, both at the level of ease of use, that is getting the test done, as well as how comprehensive and how actionable the tests are, that I recently joined their advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.
Function 给我留下了深刻的印象，无论是在易用性方面，还是在完成测试方面，以及测试的全面性和可操作性方面，我最近加入了他们的顾问委员会，我很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。
If you'd like to try Function, go to functionhealth.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Function，请访问 functionhealth.com/huberman。
Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman Lab listeners.
Function 目前有超过 250,000 人的等待名单，但他们正在为 Huberman Lab 听众提供早期访问机会。
Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.
同样，可以通过 functionhealth.com/huberman 提前访问 Function。
We had a guest on this podcast, Jim Hollis, he's an 84 year old, probably 85-year-old Jungian analyst on, and he just brilliant guy.
我们的播客邀请了一位嘉宾吉姆·霍利斯 (Jim Hollis)，他是一位 84 岁，可能是 85 岁的荣格分析师，他是一位才华横溢的人。
He's written some really important books, "Under Saturn's Shadow" and et cetera.
他写了一些非常重要的书，《土星阴影下》等等。
And he said, so he has a real kind of like suit up, show up, get to work kind of mentality.
他说，所以他有一种真正的像穿好衣服、出现、开始工作的心态。
But he also is a very reflective person and he said, "If there's one simple key to life, it's that one understand that most of our daily lives, our waking lives, are in stimulus response, but that it's so critical to take 10 to 15 minutes each day to just get out of stimulus and response and either to just let stuff geyser up out of our unconscious, subconscious mind, or to just put some real thought to something that most everybody is in stimulus response." I wonder these days with social media and so many things filling the space between walking to the car or with the pro players that you work with, I'm guessing the moment they're on the plane, they're on their phones and texting and all these things are wonderful technologies, but they fill all the space with stimulus response.
但他也是一个非常善于反思的人，他说，“如果生活中有一个简单的关键，那就是我们要明白，我们的大部分日常生活，我们醒着的生活，都处于刺激反应中，但每天花 10 到 15 分钟摆脱刺激和反应，要么让那些东西从我们的无意识、潜意识中涌出来，要么只是对大多数人都处于刺激反应中的事情进行一些真正的思考，这一点非常重要。”我想知道这些天社交媒体和这么多东西填充了步行到汽车或与你一起工作的职业玩家之间的空间，我猜当他们在飞机上的那一刻，他们在打电话和发短信，所有这些东西都是很棒的技术，但它们用刺激反应填充了所有空间。
Yeah.
是的。
They fill all the space with stimulus response.
它们用刺激反应填充所有空间。
And it's not unless you go to a place with no Wi-Fi accessibility that you suddenly realize, like wow, like in most of modern life, we're just constantly in this tennis or ping pong match with this trivial thing and that trivial thing, and some of it's essential, but that there's no "space" anymore.
除非你去到一个没有 Wi-Fi 的地方，你才会突然意识到，哇，就像在大多数现代生活中一样，我们只是不断地在这场网球或乒乓球比赛中处理这个琐碎的事情和那个琐碎的事情，其中一些是必不可少的，但不再有“空间”了。
Many ways my life is built around creating that space.
我的生活在很多方面都是围绕着创造那个空间而建立的。
And it's interesting, when I was playing chess, I experimented with studying chess from everywhere between 45 minutes a day to 16 hours a day to see where the sweet spot was.
有趣的是，当我下棋时，我尝试每天花 45 分钟到 16 小时学习国际象棋，看看最佳点在哪里。
And what I came to was about four and a half hours a day.
我每天大约工作四个半小时。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
But that four and a half hours a day was like a 10 out of 10, like fucking just on fire.
但每天的四个半小时就像十分之十，就像他妈的着火了一样。
And then the rest of the day became about cultivating those four and a half hours.
然后这一天剩下的时间就用来培养这四个半小时。
And my life today has that kind of rhythm as well.
我今天的生活也有这样的节奏。
And training, like I've spent many years working with people who are just brilliant in the investment space has been a really interesting way because it's a great laboratory because people are very driven.
培训，就像我花了很多年与投资领域的杰出人士一起工作一样，是一种非常有趣的方式，因为这是一个很棒的实验室，因为人们非常有动力。
They're all in, they're motivated, they'll take themselves on.
他们都全力以赴，他们充满动力，他们会承担起自己的责任。
And it's a great place for me to, over the last couple of decades, to refine the art of training, because I don't like solving for motivation.
在过去的几十年里，这对我来说是一个完善培训艺术的好地方，因为我不喜欢解决动机问题。
That's one thing.
这是一回事。
And I think part of that relates to that quirky dynamic from when I was seven that I described of always being the target and so never having, like not taking on my weaknesses was outside of my conceptual scheme.
我认为这部分与我七岁时的那种奇怪的动态有关，我描述的总是成为目标，所以从来没有，比如不承担我的弱点是在我的概念计划之外的。
And so in many ways, I haven't really had to struggle with motivation myself, for better or worse.
因此，从很多方面来说，无论是好还是坏，我自己都不需要为自己的动力而苦苦挣扎。
And I love working with people, partnering with people, who are all in, who want to take themselves on.
我喜欢与人们一起工作，与那些全力以赴、想要承担自己责任的人合作。
I don't love having to motivate people.
我不喜欢激励别人。
And so a great laboratory for me is with people who have all sorts of problems, who might be obstructed, but who are all in.
因此，对我来说，一个伟大的实验室就是那些有各种问题的人，他们可能会受到阻碍，但他们都全力以赴。
And you're working with world-class investors, and they're grinding themselves out 14, 15, 16 hours a day.
你正在与世界级的投资者合作，他们每天要努力工作 14、15、16 个小时。
Doing less is a huge part of doing much more.
少做事是多做事的重要组成部分。
And then you start to see like, they might be at, like if you think about a 10 out of 10 as being, like in terms of like when they're at their very best creatively.
然后你开始看到，他们可能处于，就像你认为十分之十的人一样，就像他们在创造性方面处于最佳状态时一样。
They could slip from like a 10 to a two and not even notice.
他们可能会从 10 分滑到 2 分，甚至没有注意到。
And then you begin to cultivate an awareness of where one is in one's creative spectrum, right?
然后你开始培养一种意识，了解一个人在自己的创造力范围内所处的位置，对吗？
And then you start to cultivate the art of stress and recovery and like amping oneself up and then releasing.
然后你开始培养压力和恢复的艺术，喜欢增强自己然后释放。
And you see that the ability to turn it on is directly connected to the ability to turn it off, as you know.
如您所知，您会发现打开它的能力与关闭它的能力直接相关。
If you walk into a fight gym and you study
如果你走进一家拳击馆并学习
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
A bunch of fighters on the mats.
垫子上有一群战士。
One great read you can make is looking at the depth of physiological relaxation when the guys aren't fighting, and you'll see who the highest level fighters are.
你可以阅读的一本书是观察当人们不打架时生理放松的深度，你会看到谁是最高水平的战士。
The best guys, man, they can turn it on with wild intensity, but their bodies are so mellow when they're not going.
最好的家伙，伙计，他们可以以狂野的强度打开它，但当他们不去的时候，他们的身体是如此的柔和。
And then man, like-
然后伙计，就像——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're so efficient
他们是如此高效
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
...
...
that oscillation, that range is so huge, right?
那波动，那幅度，太大了吧？
But people don't cultivate the art of turning it off in order to learn how to turn it on.
但人们不会为了学习如何打开它而培养关闭它的艺术。
For many, many years, decades, I've been practicing what I call now the MIQ process, Most Important Question process.
许多年、几十年来，我一直在实践我现在所说的 MIQ 流程，即最重要的问题流程。
And the essence of it is, it's what I came to as the most potent way so far that I've found to train analysts or thinkers in mental arenas.
它的本质是，这是我迄今为止发现的在心理领域培训分析师或思想家的最有效的方法。
You're training people in the art of discovering what matters most.
你正在训练人们发现最重要的事情的艺术。
If you talk to a great chess player, actually looks at less than a lower level chess player, but they look in the right direction.
如果你和一个伟大的国际象棋棋手交谈，实际上你会比一个较低水平的国际象棋棋手看起来要少，但他们看的方向是正确的。
So you might think a great chess player, people often think like, "Oh yeah, I can calculate 50 moves deep, 100 moves deep." It's all irrelevant.
所以你可能会认为一个伟大的国际象棋棋手，人们经常会想，“哦，是的，我可以计算出 50 步深度，100 步深度。”这一切都无关紧要。
Move two was inaccurate, so it was just all an illusion.
第二招不准确，所以这只是幻觉。
The great chess players might look at much less, but they're looking in the most potent directions.
伟大的国际象棋棋手可能关注的东西要少得多，但他们正在寻找最有效的方向。
The lower-level chess players are lost in a sea of complexity, right?
低水平的棋手会迷失在复杂的海洋中，对吗？
So if you're working with, let's say, a scientist or an investor or whatever, them straining their mind for what is the most important question, ideally to begin the practice toward the end of their workday with a release, recovery period with full intensity in a peak performance state.
因此，如果你正在与一位科学家或投资者或其他什么人一起工作，他们会绞尽脑汁思考最重要的问题是什么，理想情况下是在工作日结束时开始练习，在最佳表现状态下进行完全强度的释放、恢复期。
Stretch one's mind for what matters most, and then release it.
将注意力集中在最重要的事情上，然后释放它。
Release the workday completely.
彻底释放工作日。
Don't work all night grinding yourself out at a low level.
不要整夜工作，让自己处于低水平。
Release, and then first thing in the morning, waking up pre-input, return one's mind to the critical question and brainstorm on it.
发布，然后早上第一件事，醒来预输入，将思绪回到关键问题上并进行头脑风暴。
It's very powerful because you're systematically opening the channel between the conscious and the unconscious mind.
它非常强大，因为你正在系统地打开意识和潜意识之间的通道。
You're feeding critical questions to the unconscious, which is processing overnight.
你正在向无意识提出关键问题，而无意识正在夜间进行处理。
And I know you know all this.
我知道你知道这一切。
The consistency with which you come up with an insight in the morning is incredible.
你早上得出的见解的一致性令人难以置信。
Interestingly, and you'll probably know why much more than me, improved dream recall often happens simultaneously when one starts to have more and more insights about the MIQ in the morning, which is fascinating.
有趣的是，你可能比我更清楚为什么当一个人早上开始对 MIQ 有了越来越多的了解时，梦境回忆的改善往往会同时发生，这很有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Then over time, you can have micro manifestation of this throughout the day, before going for a workout, before taking a walk, before taking a break, before taking a piss.
然后随着时间的推移，你可以在一天中，在锻炼之前，在散步之前，在休息之前，在小便之前，有这种微观表现。
When you're going to go to the bathroom in the day, instead of checking your phone while taking a piss, you pose yourself an MIQ, you release it.
当你白天要去洗手间时，你不是边小便边看手机，而是摆出一个 MIQ 的姿势，然后松开它。
You do not do anything but piss in the bathroom, and breathe, and then return to the question, and you'll have an insight, right?
你什么都不做，只是在浴室里小便，然后呼吸，然后回到问题上，你就会有一个洞察力，对吗？
So you're learning to just oscillate between the conscious and unconscious states, and you're opening up that channel.
所以你正在学习在有意识和无意识状态之间振荡，并且你正在打开这个通道。
And you're practicing stress and recovery.
你正在练习压力和恢复。
Then your physiological workouts are also stress and recovery all the time.
那么你的生理锻炼也一直是压力和恢复。
So you're building that theme in everything that you do.
所以你所做的每一件事都在构建这个主题。
And you realize that when you're at your very best for four or five hours a day, you're doing multiples of the work that you're doing if you're just grinding yourself at, what I've called in the past, a simmering six or whatever, for 15 or 16 hours a day.
你会意识到，当你每天处于最佳状态的四到五个小时里，你所做的工作是你每天工作 15 到 16 小时（我过去所说的“慢火熬煮 6 小时”或其他什么）的工作量的倍数。
And so people can do so much more in less time.
因此人们可以在更短的时间内做更多的事情。
And my lifestyle is based on that.
我的生活方式就是基于此。
I'm training very intensely physically, and I'm doing really intense mental work, and I oscillate between them in beautiful ways.
我正在进行非常高强度的体能训练，同时也进行非常高强度的脑力工作，我以一种美妙的方式在这两者之间摇摆。
And I have a lot of empty space for reflection, for meditation, for zoning my mind on what matters most.
我有很多空闲的空间来反思、冥想，让我的思绪集中在最重要的事情上。
It's about quality, not quantity.
这是关于质量，而不是数量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
But it's so interesting how we live in this culture where just quantity is just consuming everyone.
但有趣的是，我们生活在这种文化中，数量正在消耗每个人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, it's as Hollis said, the stimulus response thing dominates, and it dominates, I think, because...
嗯，正如霍利斯所说，刺激反应占主导地位，我认为它占主导地位，因为......
Well, I have several reflections.
嗯，我有几个想法。
First of all, I just have to say you're absolutely a scientist.
首先，我不得不说你绝对是一位科学家。
You just proved it to us-
你刚刚向我们证明了这一点——
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
All right
好吧
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
through a description of this process, which I might ask you to describe once again.
通过对这个过程的描述，我可能会要求你再次描述一下。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because I think there's so much value in each of the pieces and how it's put together.
因为我认为每个部分以及它们的组合方式都有很大的价值。
Three things come to mind.
我想到三件事。
First of all, yes, indeed, as you know, and listeners of this podcast will know that, yeah, it is during sleep that we reorganize our neural connections and actual neuroplasticity occurs.
首先，是的，确实如此，正如你所知，这个播客的听众会知道，是的，正是在睡眠期间，我们重新组织了我们的神经连接，并发生了真正的神经可塑性。
The stimulus is provided in wakefulness and focus and attention, but the actual rewiring occurs during sleep, deep sleep and rapid eye movement sleep.
刺激是在清醒、注意力集中时提供的，但实际的重新布线发生在睡眠、深度睡眠和快速眼动睡眠期间。
One little fun, I think, but also powerful tool that I learned from, maybe you know him as well.
我想，这有点有趣，但也是我从中学到的强大工具，也许你也认识他。
I'm blessed to have Rick Rubin as a very good friend.
我很幸运能有里克·鲁宾这样的好朋友。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Rick and I have had beautiful jams.
里克和我有过美妙的果酱。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Wonderful.
精彩的。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Amazing.
太棒了。
Such a wise soul.
如此明智的灵魂。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've been spending more and more time with Rick.
我和瑞克在一起的时间越来越多。
But he taught me something extremely valuable, which was the process of taking some time to just lie completely still and let your mind go as wild as it needs to or as calm as it needs to while keeping the body completely still.
但他教会了我一些非常有价值的东西，那就是花一些时间完全静止不动，让你的思想尽可能狂野或尽可能平静，同时保持身体完全静止的过程。
This mimics rapid eye movement sleep when we're paralyzed and the mind is very, very active.
这模仿了我们瘫痪时的快速眼动睡眠，而大脑却非常非常活跃。
And I actually think that practices such as yoga nidra, non-sleep deep rest are also mimics of rapid eye movement sleep.
事实上，我认为瑜伽休息术、非睡眠深度休息等练习也是快速眼动睡眠的模仿。
And there are data starting to emerge now that it mimics rapid eye movement sleep, but in wakefulness.
现在开始有数据显示，它模仿快速眼动睡眠，但是在清醒状态下。
So put simply, lying still, relaxing the body as much as possible, and letting the mind be extremely active.
简单来说，就是静静地躺着，尽量放松身体，让头脑极度活跃。
Rick also taught me a little trick for which I don't know any science, but it certainly seems to work for me, which is that if you wake up from a dream and you want to continue having that dream, keep your body completely still.
里克还教了我一个小技巧，我不懂任何科学，但它似乎对我有用，那就是如果你从梦中醒来并且你想继续做那个梦，请保持你的身体完全静止。
Whereas if you wake up from a dream and it was a troubling or anxiety-provoking dream, move your body.
然而，如果您从梦中醒来，发现这是一个令人不安或令人焦虑的梦，请移动您的身体。
And it seems to work extremely well.
而且效果似乎非常好。
And I have my theories about why this works.
我有自己的理论来解释为什么会这样。
I have to ask about this process of reflecting on one's own mistakes deliberately, kind of addressing one's own pain points or shame points as such a key feature of your upbringing and your practice around learning.
我不得不问这个刻意反思自己错误的过程，有点像解决自己的痛点或耻辱点，这是你的成长和学习实践的一个关键特征。
Forgive me for going a little bit longer here, but recently somebody taught me something extremely useful.
请原谅我在这里说得有点长，但最近有人教了我一些非常有用的东西。
She said Our consciousness is sort of like a lighthouse and we have this beam of light sweeping around 360 degrees.
她说我们的意识有点像一座灯塔，我们有这束光束扫过周围 360 度。
But where we have places of shame about whatever, things that were done to us, things that we've done, whatever, just points of shame, things that we don't want people to know about us, that we don't even like to think about, it's like a stain on that lighthouse.
但是，如果我们有任何令人羞耻的地方，对我们所做的事情，我们所做的事情，无论什么，只是耻辱，我们不想让人们知道我们的事情，我们甚至不想去想，它就像灯塔上的污点。
And when that light passes through that stain, it casts a wedge, a shadow in the shape of a wedge.
当光线穿过那个污点时，它会投射出一个楔子，一个楔子形状的阴影。
And she described it in somewhat mystical terms.
她用有些神秘的术语描述了这一点。
She said it's through that shadow that evil things enter us, and that the world can hurt us, and that the process of getting over our shame, but also experiencing life in much more fullness and being able to cultivate our craft and be more present for ourselves and for others, is a process of going right up to that lighthouse window and looking at the stain and going, "That's what it is." And that's the process of wiping it off.
她说，正是通过这个阴影，邪恶的东西进入了我们，世界会伤害我们，而克服羞耻感的过程，同时也能更充实地体验生活，能够培养我们的技艺，更多地为自己和他人着想，就是一个直接走到灯塔窗户前，看着污渍的过程，然后说，“就是这样。”这就是擦掉它的过程。
Now, that's just an illustration for us to understand what I think is the process you're describing, which is that you get right up next to your worst nightmares, your worst mistakes, the things you don't want to think about.
现在，这只是一个例子，让我们理解我认为你所描述的过程，即你会遇到最糟糕的噩梦、最严重的错误、你不想考虑的事情。
And in doing so, you learn to relax in their presence, and they sort of disappear as points of shame.
在这样做的过程中，你学会在他们面前放松，他们就会作为羞耻点消失。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah, it's interesting.
是的，这很有趣。
When I wrote "The Art of Learning," it was, in many ways, cathartic for me because there were parts of my life that I had felt like I had let myself down.
当我写《学习的艺术》时，从很多方面来说，这对我来说是一种宣泄，因为我生活中的某些部分让我感到失望。
My chess life, I moved away from, and there were certain moments of it where I felt like I hadn't fully expressed my potential.
我离开了我的国际象棋生活，在某些时刻我感觉自己没有充分发挥自己的潜力。
And I just wrote them all.
我刚刚把它们全部写下来。
I just shared it all.
我刚刚分享了这一切。
And it was so beautiful.
它是如此美丽。
It was so cathartic.
这真是一种宣泄。
When I think about leadership, I think that it's so important to, leading with vulnerability is such an exquisite...
当我想到领导力时，我认为这一点非常重要，带着脆弱性进行领导是如此精致……
Joe Mazzulla and I spent the day a couple of days ago with Sean McVay, who's the head coach of the LA Rams, who just a few days after this big loss against the Eagles, and we actually ended up watching the tape.
几天前，乔·马祖拉和我与肖恩·麦克维一起度过了一天，肖恩·麦克维是洛杉矶公羊队的主教练，就在他输给老鹰队的比赛几天后，我们实际上最终观看了录像。
It was his first watching of the tape of this heartbreaking playoff loss he had, and watching him process it.
这是他第一次观看令人心碎的季后赛失利的录像，并看着他如何处理它。
And he's such a great leader.
他是一位伟大的领导者。
Both Joe and Sean lead.
乔和肖恩都领先。
They both take themselves on more intensely than anything, but they lead with vulnerability.
他们都对自己的态度比任何事情都更加强烈，但他们的领导方式却很脆弱。
They go up against their stains.
他们奋起反抗自己的污渍。
And being authentic there, as opposed to being a leader or a father or a mother or a coach who just keeps it in the pocket as if they're perfect.
在那里要保持真实，而不是成为一个领导者、父亲、母亲或教练，只是把它放在口袋里，好像他们是完美的。
There's something so inauthentic about that.
这有些不真实。
I think in human relationship and in the cultivation of oneself as an artist, going right at one's weakness is so powerful.
我觉得无论是在人际关系上，还是在作为一个艺术家的自我修养上，直面自己的弱点是非常有力量的。
Now, of course, there's also the tender balance of how much we should cultivate our strengths and how much we should be spent shoring up our weaknesses.
当然，现在还需要平衡我们应该在多大程度上培养我们的优势，以及我们应该花多少钱来弥补我们的弱点。
And one of the most important principles, which I learned too late in my chess life, is that we can take on our weaknesses through the lens of our strengths.
最重要的原则之一是我们可以通过我们的优势来弥补我们的弱点，这是我在国际象棋生涯中学到的太晚了。
Right?
正确的？
I remember this brilliant sage Russian coach, Yuri Razuvaev, said to me at one point, "You can learn Karpov through Kasparov." His point being, you can learn about the great defensive chess through the great defense of great aggressors like you, as opposed to just studying Karpov and thinking, what would Karpov do here?
我记得这位才华横溢的圣人俄罗斯教练尤里·拉祖瓦耶夫（Yuri Razuvaev）有一次对我说：“你可以通过卡斯帕罗夫学习卡尔波夫。”他的观点是，你可以通过像你这样的伟大侵略者的伟大防守来了解伟大的防守国际象棋，而不是仅仅研究卡尔波夫并思考卡尔波夫在这里会做什么？
Which was urged to do by other people.
这是其他人敦促这样做的。
Learn defense through offense.
通过进攻学习防守。
Right?
正确的？
So it was part of my self-expression.
所以这是我自我表达的一部分。
I learned that principle too late for my chess life, but it's manifest everywhere else.
对于我的国际象棋生涯来说，我学到这一原则为时已晚，但它在其他地方都很明显。
Right?
正确的？
So while we're cultivating our strength, which I think we should do as a way of life, how do we go up against our stains, but in ways that we're not fundamentally...
因此，当我们培养我们的力量时，我认为我们应该将其作为一种生活方式，我们如何对抗我们的污点，但以我们根本上不...
It's not shame.
这不是羞耻。
I don't relate to, personally, that's a word I don't, shame.
我个人不认同这个词，羞耻。
It's not shame.
这不是羞耻。
It's like when it becomes just like a breath pattern.
就像它变得像呼吸模式一样。
We put ourself on the line, we lose, we go at it, we study it, we study how.
我们把自己置于危险之中，我们输了，我们继续努力，我们研究它，我们研究如何做。
The other thing that's incredible to me is that when you study your losses, when you go up against what you're calling, that's a beautiful image, the shadow of the lighthouse, right?
另一件令我难以置信的事情是，当你研究你的损失时，当你对抗你所称的东西时，那是一个美丽的形象，灯塔的影子，对吧？
The interconnectedness of the technical, the psychological, and the thematic is so powerful in the learning process.
在学习过程中，技术、心理和主题的相互联系非常强大。
Almost every technical mistake that we make in an art, if we're pushing ourselves to our limits, if you and I are around the same level and we're competing in something where we're about this in anything, any technical mistake I made will have a psychological dimension because most likely, my technical weakness emerged because I was so psychologically pressured that I wasn't able to solve the technical position.
几乎我们在艺术中犯的每一个技术错误，如果我们把自己推向极限，如果你和我处于同一水平，并且我们在任何事情上都在竞争，那么我犯的任何技术错误都会有心理层面，因为很可能，我的技术弱点出现是因为我在心理上承受了很大的压力，以至于我无法解决技术问题。
Right?
正确的？
Or if I make a psychological error, it's often because I was a little technically out of my water, and so it put extra pressure on my psyche that then you were able to exploit.
或者，如果我犯了心理错误，通常是因为我在技术上有点不知所措，所以这给我的心理带来了额外的压力，然后你就可以利用了。
Right?
正确的？
And every technical mistake is local.
每一个技术错误都是局部的。
Right?
正确的？
But there's themes.
但有主题。
There's a theme that houses hundreds of those technical manifestations.
有一个主题包含数百种技术表现形式。
So if we are always thinking about the technical, the thematic, the psychological, and we have what I call a sixth dimensional introspective process, right?
因此，如果我们总是思考技术、主题、心理，那么我们就有了我所说的第六维度内省过程，对吧？
And we're looking at all of these, the interconnectedness of those different parts of the human experience of an art or anything else, then the growth curve is incredibly explosive because we make a technical mistake and we learn the theme.
我们正在研究所有这些，人类艺术或其他任何事物的不同部分的相互联系，然后增长曲线是令人难以置信的爆炸性，因为我们犯了一个技术错误，我们学习了主题。
We take on the theme that houses that one, but also houses dozens of others.
我们采用的主题既包含了这个主题，也包含了其他数十个主题。
And so as we turn that theme into a strength, into a power zone, then that technical mistake goes away, but as do the other manifestations of that theme.
因此，当我们将这个主题转变为一种力量，转变为一个权力区域时，技术错误就会消失，但该主题的其他表现形式也会消失。
And if we're also studying the psychological weakness that allowed that technical weakness to manifest, to unearth itself, then that psychological dimension becomes something that we take on.
如果我们也在研究导致技术弱点显现出来的心理弱点，并发现其自身，那么心理维度就成为我们所承担的东西。
And then we're studying thematic interconnectedness as a way of life.
然后我们正在研究主题的相互关联性作为一种生活方式。
Because then that lesson we learned through that chess, I made a subtle chess mistake, but that connects to my love life, it connects to my fatherhood, it connects to my foiling, my jujitsu, my everything, because it connects to the theme and it connects to my psychology and it manifests.
因为我们通过国际象棋学到的教训，我犯了一个微妙的国际象棋错误，但这与我的爱情生活有关，与我的父亲有关，与我的挫败有关，与我的柔术有关，与我的一切有关，因为它与主题有关，与我的心理有关，而且它体现了出来。
I don't believe in compartmentalization.
我不相信区隔化。
I believe in thematic interconnectedness.
我相信主题之间的相互联系。
Right?
正确的？
And the core themes of my life, I would say, if I had to boil it down, would be love, interconnectedness, and receptivity.
我想说，如果我必须把它归结起来的话，我生命的核心主题将是爱、相互联系和接受性。
I only do what I love, and I spend time with people who I love, and that's how I live.
我只做我喜欢做的事，花时间和我爱的人在一起，这就是我的生活方式。
The study of interconnectedness is my way of life in some of the ways I've been describing.
从我所描述的某些方面来看，对互联性的研究是我的生活方式。
And receptivity is what I cultivate every day of my life, in the ocean, with people, with humans.
接受能力是我每天在海洋中、与人相处、与人类相处时培养的。
But we always get isolated.
但我们总是被孤立。
We get siloed.
我们被孤立了。
Oh, yeah, it's this chess mistake.
哦，是的，这就是国际象棋的错误。
One of the things I've found so confusing is why don't more great chess players who try successfully translate their level from chess to other things?
我发现如此令人困惑的一件事是，为什么没有更多伟大的国际象棋棋手尝试成功地将他们的水平从国际象棋转移到其他事物上？
Because chess is so hard, and chess is such a relentlessly truth-telling art.
因为国际象棋是如此困难，而国际象棋又是一门坚持不懈地讲真话的艺术。
If you become a world-class chess player, you're fucking good, because there's no luck in chess.
如果你成为世界级的国际象棋棋手，那你就太棒了，因为国际象棋中没有运气。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Especially if you become very good, very young.
尤其是当你变得非常优秀、非常年轻的时候。
I think this is true of most prodigies.
我想大多数神童都是如此。
I don't want to name them, but I have a colleague, a very smart guy.
我不想说出他们的名字，但我有一位同事，一个非常聪明的人。
His science is very solid.
他的科学非常扎实。
And I remember I met with him and I said, "Is it true that you're-
我记得我见过他，我说，“你真的是——
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Troy's going to love that.
特洛伊一定会喜欢的。
You're referring to him as solid, yeah.
你说他是可靠的，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's okay.
没关系。
That's okay.
没关系。
He's done nice work.
他做得很好。
I just wouldn't say that it's transformed our understanding of everything in that field, but he's made some very important contributions.
我只是不会说它改变了我们对该领域一切的理解，但他做出了一些非常重要的贡献。
He's a fabulous teacher and a nice person.
他是一位出色的老师，也是一个好人。
One day I was meeting with him and I said, "You're a child prodigy, I heard." And he said, "Former child prodigy." And I was like, okay, well, there we're getting technical, but yeah, okay.
有一天，我和他见面时，我说：“我听说，你是个神童。”他说：“以前的神童。”我当时想，好吧，好吧，我们正在学习技术，但是，是的，好吧。
And I asked my dad, because my dad lived in the same building as Daniel Barenboim, the musician, who is if you've ever seen the movie "Hilary and Jackie," he was one of the world's most accomplished piano players at a very young age.
我问我爸爸，因为我爸爸和音乐家丹尼尔·巴伦博伊姆住在同一栋楼里，如果你看过电影《希拉里和杰基》，他在很小的时候就是世界上最有成就的钢琴演奏家之一。
And my dad used to hear him playing when he was a kid, and they wouldn't let him play with other kids, and he was like, Barenboim is a serious for classical musicians, and pianists in particular.
我爸爸小时候经常听他演奏，他们不让他和其他孩子一起演奏，他说，巴伦博伊姆对古典音乐家，尤其是钢琴家来说是一个严肃的人。
It's serious stuff.
这是严肃的事情。
And so I asked my dad, I was like, "What's the deal with this child prodigy thing?" And he said, "Yeah, very few of them go on to do much in their adult careers, in any field."
所以我问我爸爸，我想，“这个神童是怎么回事？”他说：“是的，他们中很少有人能在成年后的职业生涯中，无论是在任何领域，做出多大的贡献。”
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I was like, wow.
我当时想，哇。
And I thought, okay, so what's missing there is clearly not a lack of ability, focus.
我想，好吧，那么显然我们缺少的并不是能力和专注力。
You could just say raw talent, but the kid still has to focus.
你可以只说天赋，但孩子仍然需要专注。
So what's missing is this transfer of understanding it seems, or what you're talking about, the interconnectedness of things.
因此，缺少的是这种理解的转变，或者你所说的，事物的相互联系。
And so, I probably will get myself in trouble with this colleague, but hey, listen, maybe he'll take on something new and do something additionally spectacular.
因此，我可能会给自己带来与这位同事的麻烦，但是嘿，听着，也许他会接受一些新的东西，做一些更加引人注目的事情。
He's got a lot of things on his plate.
他有很多事情要做。
But that struck me.
但这让我震惊。
I was like, oh, it's not clear that being a quote unquote child prodigy is such a good thing for the long arc of one's life.
我当时想，哦，目前还不清楚成为一个神童对于一个人的一生来说是一件好事。
But you have seemed to bring in these other elements, love.
但你似乎引入了其他元素，爱。
I'd like to talk more about that.
我想多谈谈这一点。
And I would also add, at least from an outsider's perspective of, you seem to have broken the mold with what's expected of you, based on your prior accomplishments.
我还要补充一点，至少从局外人的角度来看，根据您之前的成就，您似乎已经打破了对您的期望的模式。
In fact-
事实上——
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Well, just to be clear, I have no identity in being a prodigy.
好吧，澄清一下，我没有神童的身份。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Just to be clear.
只是要明确一点。
So I don't relate to that word at all.
所以我根本不喜欢这个词。
That word's been put on me from the outside, but I just don't associate with it.
这个词是外界强加给我的，但我就是不认同。
I don't relate to it at all.
我和它一点关系都没有。
Because I was maybe somewhat talented in chess compared to most people, but then very early in my, by the time I was six and something, I was only competing against people who were better than me, and kids who were as talented as me.
因为与大多数人相比，我在国际象棋方面可能有些天赋，但在我很小的时候，当我六岁左右的时候，我只与比我更好的人以及和我一样有天赋的孩子竞争。
And then on the world stage, kids who are more talented than me.
然后在世界舞台上，有比我更有才华的孩子。
And I couldn't rely on my talent at all because I had to work my ass off, and I won, and I lost, and I got my ass kicked.
我根本不能依赖我的天赋，因为我必须拼命工作，我赢了，我输了，我被踢了。
And so for me, it was all about the battle and taking myself on.
所以对我来说，一切都与战斗和自我挑战有关。
And I think what happens, it's funny, many years ago, I was giving a simul, a simultaneous chess exhibition, and I showed up at this place, and all these kids were there, and they're all excited to play against me.
我认为发生的事情很有趣，很多年前，我正在举办一场同步的国际象棋展览，我出现在这个地方，所有这些孩子都在那里，他们都很兴奋与我比赛。
And then the organizer of it said, "My son hasn't lost a chess game in two years." And that's all you need to know.
然后组织者说：“我儿子已经两年没有输过棋了。”这就是您需要知道的全部。
Because that means you're just-- And of course, he was the one kid who didn't want to play against me, right?
因为这意味着你只是——当然，他是唯一一个不想和我比赛的孩子，对吧？
Because if you haven't lost a chess game in two years, you're not taking your shit on.
因为如果你在两年内没有输掉一场国际象棋比赛，那么你就不会在开玩笑。
You're finding people who you can beat, and you're only playing against them.
你正在寻找你可以击败的人，而你只是在与他们对抗。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
So there's a couple levels to this.
所以这有几个层次。
Let's dig into it.
让我们深入研究一下。
So I think that people who have identity in being a prodigy develop a brittleness often because they associate their level of mastery with talent, with something innate, with being smarter, more brilliant, more gifted, whatever.
所以我认为那些有神童身份的人往往会变得脆弱，因为他们将自己的掌握水平与天赋、与生俱来的东西、与更聪明、更聪明、更有天赋等等联系起来。
And then you think about Carol Dweck's work in entity and incremental theories of intelligence, right?
然后你会想到卡罗尔·德韦克（Carol Dweck）在实体和增量智力理论方面的工作，对吗？
That's an entity theory of intelligence.
这就是智力的实体理论。
So I think there's that, and there's something fundamentally brittle about that.
所以我认为就是这样，而且这从根本上来说是脆弱的。
And then one doesn't take risk, one doesn't expose oneself, one associates one's great moments with something ingrained or innate versus the hard work that it took to get there.
然后，一个人不会冒险，不会暴露自己，一个人会将自己的伟大时刻与根深蒂固或与生俱来的东西联系起来，而不是为此付出的努力。
And there's all sorts of paralyzing dynamics there.
那里有各种各样令人瘫痪的动力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, there's also a tendency to lie.
哦，还有说谎的倾向。
Carol's-
卡罗尔的——
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
For sure
当然
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
early papers referred to this in the discussion sections.
早期论文在讨论部分提到了这一点。
You have to read deep into those papers.
你必须深入阅读这些论文。
But she describes how the students who did not have growth mindset, that really identified and held so much of their ego with their performance were at a significantly greater tendency to lie about their performance-
但她描述了那些没有成长心态的学生，他们真正认同并通过自己的表现保持了如此多的自我，他们在表现上撒谎的倾向明显更大——
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
when they didn't do well.
当他们做得不好的时候。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
To themselves and to others.
对自己和他人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's right.
没错。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
But the lying to oneself is the really interesting part, right?
但对自己撒谎才是真正有趣的部分，对吧？
So there's that dimension, right, which you and I have both seen just countless manifestations of.
所以这就是那个维度，对吧，你和我都已经看到了无数的表现。
And believe me, when you're competing against someone who you see has that kind of psychological construction, they're done.
相信我，当你与你看到的具有这种心理结构的人竞争时，他们就完蛋了。
You can just break them, right?
你可以打破它们，对吗？
There's so many chinks in the armor.
铠甲上有很多缝隙。
So, there's a brittleness there.
所以，那里有一个脆性。
You can just find where their mind stops in false constructs, where the energy stops, or where their body's crimped, right?
你可以找到他们的思想在错误的构造中停止的地方，能量停止的地方，或者他们的身体被卷曲的地方，对吧？
You can just find their connection to the ground and explode through it.
你只需找到它们与地面的连接并通过它爆炸即可。
In mental and physical disciplines, if someone has that kind of identity in being the more brilliant one, the more gifted one, whatever, they're prey from a competitive perspective.
在精神和身体学科中，如果某人具有更聪明、更有天赋的身份，无论如何，从竞争的角度来看，他们就是猎物。
Which is ultimately good for them if they expose themselves to it, because then they have to take themselves on.
如果他们将自己暴露在其中，这最终对他们有好处，因为这样他们就必须承担起自己的责任。
But the dynamic that I was reflecting on in chess players is a little next door to this, which is that I think that if you're learning how to play chess, and let's just say I was teaching you.
但我在国际象棋棋手中所反映的动态与此有点接近，那就是我认为如果你正在学习如何下棋，我们就说我在教你。
Do you play chess?
你下棋吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Trivially.
简单地说。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
So let's say I was teaching you to play chess, right?
假设我正在教你下棋，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
I could teach you to play chess with a language that is chess specific, or I could teach you chess principles.
我可以教你用国际象棋专用的语言下棋，或者我可以教你国际象棋原理。
And I could teach you very effectively with chess principles, but I could also teach you just as effectively, or maybe somewhat more effectively, but let's just say just as effectively, with chess principles that are also life principles, right?
我可以非常有效地教你国际象棋原理，但我也可以同样有效地教你，或者可能更有效，但我们可以说同样有效，国际象棋原理也是生活原理，对吗？
And it's interesting when you watch most chess teachers, they teach in a localized manner.
有趣的是，当你观察大多数国际象棋老师时，他们以本地化的方式进行教学。
So people can spend 20 years inside of chess but never break beyond the 64 squares.
所以人们可以在国际象棋中呆上20年，但永远不会突破64个方格。
Or they can, from the age of six or seven on, be learning that principle as it connects to chess, but also seeing how it connects to life.
或者，他们可以从六七岁开始学习这一与国际象棋相关的原理，同时也了解它与生活的联系。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could you give me an example of one such principle?
您能给我举一个这样的原则的例子吗？
Because I love in biology teaching not names, not using nouns, but instead teaching verbs.
因为我喜欢在生物教学中不教名字，不使用名词，而是教动词。
Because ultimately, if you want to understand, for instance, how the nervous system works or the immune system, you teach the verb actions of-
因为最终，如果你想了解，例如，神经系统或免疫系统是如何工作的，你就需要教授以下的动词动作：
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
molecules.
分子。
And the names of the molecules are important if you decide to go into that field professionally.
如果您决定专业进入该领域，分子的名称很重要。
But otherwise, the principles and verbs are what's most important.
但除此之外，原则和动词才是最重要的。
So what's an example of a principle of chess or a mode of action on the board that you think transfers?
那么您认为可以转移的国际象棋原理或棋盘上的行动模式的例子是什么？
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Everything transfers, first of all.
首先，一切都会转移。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
If we're open to it-
如果我们持开放态度——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
...
...
then everything in chess connects.
那么国际象棋中的一切都是相互联系的。
So when people ask me, "Do you still play chess?" I say, "Metaphorically." I play chess all the time.
所以当人们问我“你还在下棋吗？”我说：“打个比方。”我一直下棋。
I just have not moved a piece in many years, right?
我只是很多年没有动过一块了，对吧？
But okay, to be specific, so I could give you many examples, but all right.
但是好吧，具体来说，我可以给你举很多例子，但是没关系。
So in chess, there's a bishop and there's a knight, right?
所以在国际象棋中，有一个象，有一个马，对吧？
They're both worth about three pawns.
他们都值大约三个典当。
Now I could teach you, okay, so the knight moves like an L and can jump over pieces.
现在我可以教你，好吧，让马像L一样移动并且可以跳过棋子。
The bishop moves diagonally and is stuck on one color for its whole life.
主教沿对角线移动，并且一生都停留在一种颜色上。
They're both worth about three pawns.
他们都值大约三个典当。
But knights are, and I could just say to you, but knights are a little bit better in closed positions because they can jump over things.
但骑士是，我只能对你说，但骑士在封闭位置上要好一点，因为他们可以跳过东西。
Bishops are a little better if your pawns are on the opposite color from them, right?
如果你的棋子与主教的颜色相反，主教会好一点，对吗？
But you should also know that rooks and bishops are-- Bishops and knights are about the same.
但你也应该知道，车和主教——主教和马差不多。
Rooks and bishops are much stronger than rooks and knights.
车和主教比车和马强得多。
And you should also know that queens and knights are a bit stronger than queens and bishops.
而且你也应该知道，皇后和骑士比皇后和主教要强一些。
So the bishop's value is a little bit stronger compared with a rook, and the knight's value a little bit stronger with a queen, and pawn structure influences them, right?
所以象的价值比车强一点，马的价值比后强一点，兵结构影响了他们，对吧？
So I could teach you a very simple set of principles through which you can understand how to evaluate bishops and knights, right?
所以我可以教你一套非常简单的原则，通过它你可以了解如何评价主教和骑士，对吗？
And there's many other layers to that, but that's some of it, right?
还有很多其他层面，但这只是其中的一部分，对吗？
I could also teach you the same thing and be teaching you the nature of relativity.
我也可以教你同样的事情，教你相对论的本质。
I could be teaching you the nature of interdependence, right?
我可以教你相互依赖的本质，对吧？
I could teach you the pawn structure play, the way you can play with pawn structure that influences bishops and knights in ways that are chess specific or in ways that just allow you to understand dynamic quality and static quality.
我可以教你棋子结构的玩法，即你可以玩棋子结构的方式，这种棋子结构会以国际象棋特定的方式影响主教和马，或者只是让你了解动态质量和静态质量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You know what leaps to mind when you made that description, and I didn't follow all of it to memorization, was Family Feud.
你知道，当你做出这样的描述时，我脑海中浮现的是什么，而我并没有记住所有这些，那就是“家庭不和”。
I just imagine two families in a feud, right?
我只是想象两个家庭不和，对吧？
You get two brothers together, they can do certain things.
你让两个兄弟在一起，他们可以做某些事情。
But you get a brother and sister together, I have a sister, she can do certain things that are powerful and diabolical in ways that two brothers can't.
但是你有一个兄弟姐妹在一起，我有一个妹妹，她可以做某些强大而邪恶的事情，而两个兄弟却做不到。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
So you get two big strong brothers, but maybe one that can't creep through small places.
所以你有两个强大的兄弟，但也许一个不能爬过小地方。
And so you can map to different-- That's sort of more of just kind of an analogy for it all.
所以你可以映射到不同的——这更像是对这一切的一种类比。
But I started to immediately think about like, oh, it's like a family feud.
但我立即开始思考，哦，这就像一场家庭不和。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If I were to view the pieces as sibling dynamics and parent, sibling, cousin dynamics.
如果我将这些片段视为兄弟姐妹的动态以及父母、兄弟姐妹、表兄弟的动态。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
It's like matchups with humans or in basketball, like this team is better than this team, but again, there's some matchups that are hugely favorable.
这就像与人类或篮球比赛一样，就像这支球队比这支球队更好，但同样，有一些比赛非常有利。
A lot of the inside game of basketball is around which teams thrive against which other teams, even though they might be inferior because of the nature of the construction of the team.
篮球比赛的很多内线比赛都围绕着哪支球队在对阵其他球队时表现出色，尽管他们可能因为球队建设的性质而处于劣势。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Then you have networks of those teams, and how do you deal with lineups?
那么你有这些球队的网络，你如何处理阵容？
How do you deal with rotation patterns?
您如何处理轮换模式？
The inner game of basketball is all based on the same stuff that dictates the bishop, and the knight, and the rook, and the queen, and how they influence it, right?
篮球的内在比赛都是基于同样的东西来决定主教、马、车和后，以及它们如何影响它，对吗？
It's interdependence.
这是相互依赖的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Beautiful.
美丽。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
It's relativity.
这是相对论。
It's dynamic quality.
这是动态的品质。
And you could think about Robert Pirsig's work in Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance and Lila around dynamic quality versus static quality.
您可以考虑一下 Robert Pirsig 在《禅宗和摩托车维护艺术》中的著作以及《Lila》中关于动态质量与静态质量的著作。
And you can be teaching a student that while you're teaching about rook and bishop, and rook and knight, or knights and bishops, you can be teaching them about dynamic quality, right?
你可以教学生，当你教车和象，车和马，或者马和象时，你可以教他们动态质量，对吧？
And then you can expand into the study of the metaphysics of quality.
然后你可以扩展到质量形而上学的研究。
And then you can have a seven-year-old student who's learning chess, or a 12-year-old who's learning chess, or who's learning about life and philosophy and everything, and you can do it in the same amount of time.
然后你可以让一个 7 岁的学生学习国际象棋，或者一个 12 岁的学生学习国际象棋，或者学习生活、哲学和一切，你可以在相同的时间内完成。
But you're trapping a mind inside of 64 squares, or you're teaching a mind about life through the 64 squares.
但是你将思想困在 64 个方格内，或者你正在通过 64 个方格教导思想如何生活。
And I think so many of the reasons that
我认为有很多原因
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People who become excellent in one thing can't translate it into other places.
在某件事上变得优秀的人，无法将其转化为其他方面。
It's not will later on in life.
这不是以后的生活。
They have the will.
他们有意愿。
It's because they didn't learn with universal principles.
这是因为他们没有按照普遍原则来学习。
They didn't study their art with a presence to the importance of interconnectedness, which is a lot of what my life's work is in.
他们在研究艺术时并没有意识到相互联系的重要性，而这正是我一生工作的大部分内容。
I'd like to take a quick break and thank our sponsor, Eight Sleep.
我想稍微休息一下，并感谢我们的赞助商“八睡”。
Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep-tracking capacity.
八睡眠公司生产具有冷却、加热和睡眠跟踪功能的智能床垫套。
Now, I've spoken many times before on this podcast about the critical need for us to get adequate amounts of quality sleep each night.
现在，我之前已经在这个播客中多次谈到我们每晚获得充足的优质睡眠的迫切需要。
That's truly the foundation of all mental health, physical health, and performance.
这确实是所有心理健康、身体健康和表现的基础。
And one of the best ways to ensure that you get a great night's sleep is to control the temperature of your sleeping environment.
确保您睡个好觉的最佳方法之一就是控制睡眠环境的温度。
And that's because in order to fall and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees.
这是因为为了入睡并保持深度睡眠，您的体温实际上必须下降约一到三度。
And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase about one to three degrees.
为了醒来时感到神清气爽、精力充沛，您的体温实际上必须升高约一到三度。
Eight Sleep makes it incredibly easy to control the temperature of your sleeping environment by allowing you to control the temperature of your mattress cover at the beginning, middle, and end of the night.
八睡眠让您可以非常轻松地控制睡眠环境的温度，让您可以在晚上的开始、中间和结束时控制床垫套的温度。
I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for nearly four years now, and it has completely transformed and improved the quality of my sleep.
我已经睡在八睡眠床垫罩上近四年了，它彻底改变并改善了我的睡眠质量。
Eight Sleep has now launched their newest generation of the pod cover, the Pod 4 Ultra.
八睡眠现在推出了他们最新一代的 Pod 4 Ultra。
The Pod 4 Ultra has improved cooling and heating capacity, higher fidelity sleep tracking technology, and even has snoring detection that will automatically lift your head a few degrees to improve your airflow and stop your snoring.
Pod 4 Ultra 具有改进的冷却和加热能力、更高保真度的睡眠跟踪技术，甚至还具有打鼾检测功能，可以自动将您的头抬起几度，以改善气流并停止打鼾。
If you'd like to try an Eight Sleep mattress cover, go to eightsleep.com/huberman to save up to $350 off their Pod 4 Ultra.
如果您想尝试 8 Sleep 床垫套，请访问 foursleep.com/huberman，Pod 4 Ultra 最多可节省 350 美元。
Eight Sleep currently ships in the USA, Canada, UK, select countries in the EU, and Australia.
八睡眠目前在美国、加拿大、英国、欧盟部分国家和澳大利亚发货。
Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman.
再说一遍，这是八睡眠.com/huberman。
When I think about interconnectedness, I think the word mapping comes to mind, and I define a map of any kind as a transformation of one set of points into another set of points, right?
当我想到互连性时，我想到了“映射”这个词，并且我将任何类型的地图定义为一组点到另一组点的转换，对吧？
Points along the Earth transferred onto a page or an electronic map.
地球沿线的点转移到页面或电子地图上。
And what's missing from a kind of basic understanding of a transformation of points into another transformation of points are these verb actions.
从点的转换到另一种点的转换的基本理解中缺少的是这些动词动作。
Like it's the algorithms, if you will.
如果你愿意的话，就像算法一样。
That's not present in how we map one context onto another context.
这并不存在于我们将一个上下文映射到另一个上下文的方式中。
It requires a lot of thinking to do what you describe.
做你所描述的事情需要大量的思考。
I don't think it's reflexive for most people to, say, watch a game of basketball and think about the emotional dynamics and the consistencies of the emotional dynamics.
我认为，对于大多数人来说，观看一场篮球比赛并思考情绪动态和情绪动态的一致性并不是本能的。
Like last night, I had the great gift of Josh brought me to a Celtics game.
就像昨晚一样，乔什给我带来了伟大的礼物，他带我去看了凯尔特人队的比赛。
So he brought me to a Celtics game, and they were playing the Clippers, so I was cheering against the hometown crowd here in Los Angeles.
所以他带我去看了凯尔特人队的比赛，他们正在对阵快船队，所以我在洛杉矶为家乡球迷欢呼。
But it was friendly.
但它很友好。
And you were describing the players and their recent history and the kind of last season, this season, and you said something about the difference between preconscious effort and postconscious effort.
你描述了球员们和他们最近的历史以及上赛季和本赛季的情况，你还谈到了前意识努力和后意识努力之间的区别。
Yes.
是的。
Maybe we could talk about that as a gateway into ego, which is like a term that the moment you throw out the word ego, it's like saying sex.
也许我们可以将其视为进入自我的门户，这就像一个术语，当你抛出“自我”这个词时，就像在说性一样。
It's like people make all sorts of assumptions about what it is and what it isn't.
就像人们对它是什么和不是什么做出各种假设。
But let's talk about preconscious and postconscious.
但我们来谈谈前意识和后意识。
Yeah.
是的。
Because we'll get back to the Celtics and the game that was played last night.
因为我们会回到凯尔特人队以及昨晚进行的比赛。
By the way, the Celtics won in overtime, by a good-sized margin.
顺便说一句，凯尔特人队在加时赛中以大比分获胜。
So there's something very beautiful that I think all of us are drawn to as observers, but hopefully everyone gets to experience this at some point in their life as well firsthand.
因此，我认为我们所有人作为观察者都会被一些非常美丽的东西所吸引，但希望每个人都能在生命中的某个时刻亲身体验这一点。
When somebody in art, music, sport, or whatever is just being themselves and this seeming virtuosity comes out.
当艺术、音乐、体育或其他领域的某人只是做自己时，这种看似精湛的技艺就会显现出来。
If I think about kind of what Rick Rubin does, a lot of what Rick has done historically is to find artists and work with artists and just bring out what they're already doing, like the core elements.
如果我想想 Rick Rubin 所做的事情，Rick 历史上所做的很多事情都是寻找艺术家并与艺术家合作，然后只是带出他们已经在做的事情，比如核心元素。
Like when Beastie Boys started, it was like a joke, he said, and they were kind of making fun of, had wrestling elements and hardcore and punk and all this stuff, and hip hop and...
就像 Beastie Boys 成立时一样，这就像一个笑话，他说，他们有点取笑，有摔跤元素、硬核、朋克和所有这些东西，还有嘻哈和……
But he tends to work with artists early on when they're in that really like pure state of not thinking about the returns on their investment and all that.
但他倾向于在早期与艺术家合作，当时他们处于一种非常纯粹的状态，不考虑投资回报等等。
And he said many times before to me and publicly that after people achieve a certain level of fame, it's much harder to get back to that just pure picture of oneself, preconscious expression.
他之前多次公开对我说过，当人们获得一定程度的名气后，要回到纯粹的自我形象、前意识表达就困难得多。
Just Josh being Josh as an eight-year-old.
乔什就是八岁孩子的乔什。
You just happen to be in Washington Square Park learning chess, or pick any number of different examples.
您恰好在华盛顿广场公园学习国际象棋，或者选择任意数量的不同示例。
So very different than when people now reflect on their trophies on the wall or their platinum records, or the fact that they won and lost, or that there's another champion in the house.
与人们现在反思墙上的奖杯或白金唱片，或者他们赢了和输了的事实，或者家里还有另一个冠军的事实非常不同。
And the real virtuosos seem to be people that can get back to that over and over again.
真正的大师似乎是那些能够一遍又一遍地回顾这一点的人。
The Yo-Yo Mas.
溜溜球马斯。
And people live longer now, so it used to be the Mozarts, the Bachs.
现在人们的寿命更长了，所以过去是莫扎特、巴赫。
They could make their contribution and then they died.
他们可以做出自己的贡献，然后就死了。
Yeah.
是的。
Now we live longer lives, so people have many more chances, but there's also that longer window for lack of productivity.
现在我们的寿命更长了，因此人们有更多的机会，但生产力缺乏的时间也更长了。
This is a really important theme, and it's a gateway into so much.
这是一个非常重要的主题，也是了解很多内容的门户。
Like we can explore a lot through this tunnel.
就像我们可以通过这条隧道探索很多东西一样。
When I use this term preconscious and postconscious artist or competitor, it's my own language, so I'll describe what I mean by it.
当我使用“前意识和后意识艺术家或竞争对手”这个术语时，这是我自己的语言，所以我将描述我的意思。
Well, you think about myself in the chess world, right?
好吧，你想想我自己在国际象棋界的表现，对吗？
Like one discovers an art, one feels a passion for it.
就像一个人发现一门艺术一样，一个人会对它产生热情。
One, it's beautiful, it's joyous, it's self-expressive.
一，它是美丽的，它是快乐的，它是自我表达的。
I love the battle.
我喜欢战斗。
I'm winning, I'm losing, I'm having fun.
我赢了，我输了，我很开心。
I'm just letting it rip, right?
我只是让它撕裂，对吗？
There's a naiveté to that.
这有点天真。
There's a freedom, there's a playfulness, right?
有自由，有乐趣，对吗？
There's a lack of complexity, a lack of self-awareness, a lack of awareness of my own mutability, a lack of awareness that I can be shattered or I can die, a lack of awareness of the existential absurdity of the fact that I'm devoting my life to 64 squares and 32 pieces of wood on top of 64 squares.
缺乏复杂性，缺乏自我意识，缺乏对自己的可变性的认识，缺乏对自己可能会被粉碎或死亡的认识，缺乏对我将自己的一生奉献给 64 个方格和 64 个方格上的 32 块木头这一事实的存在主义荒谬性的认识。
I haven't reflected on the fact that this is ridiculous, right?
我还没反思过，这很可笑吧？
Or if you're fighting, like what am I doing?
或者如果你们在打架，就像我在做什么？
I'm spending my life in combat.
我的一生都在战斗中度过。
Like what about love?
比如爱情呢？
What about saving the planet?
拯救地球呢？
What about everything else?
其他一切又如何呢？
I haven't reflected on the fact that this is just a joke in its absurdity, right?
我还没反思过这只是一个笑话，其荒谬性对吧？
And one's liberated from those kinds of things.
一个人就从这些事情中解放出来了。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
And then there comes this moment, and for me, it was triggered by the movie, by losing that sense of self-expression, by thinking what would someone else do here instead of what's my freedom, my playfulness tell me to do?
然后这一刻到来了，对我来说，它是由电影引发的，因为失去了自我表达的感觉，因为思考别人会在这里做什么，而不是我的自由、我的顽皮告诉我要做的事情？
It can happen when one has a near-death experience, right?
当一个人有过濒死体验时，就会发生这种情况，对吗？
It can happen when one has one's heart broken.
当一个人心碎时，就会发生这种情况。
It can happen when one starts reading existentialist literature and reflecting on the absurdity of things, or one has a friend who starts pointing out over and over like, "This is fucking ridiculous.
当一个人开始阅读存在主义文学并反思事物的荒谬性时，或者一个人开始一遍又一遍地指出“这太他妈荒谬了。
You're just playing chess.
你只是在下棋。
What are you doing?" Right?
你在做什么？”正确的？
Or it can happen when one wins the world championship or the NBA finals, because suddenly the thing that you have oriented yourself around your whole life, the goal you had your whole life, you've now accomplished, and now you're on the other side of it.
或者当一个人赢得世界冠军或NBA总决赛时，这可能会发生，因为突然之间，你一生都以自己为中心的事情，你一生的目标，你现在已经完成了，现在你站在了它的另一边。
And so suddenly, your world has shifted.
突然之间，你的世界发生了变化。
The things that motivated you no longer motivate you.
曾经激励你的事情不再激励你。
The things that felt so important to you now seem somewhat trivial because you've already accomplished that.
那些对你来说如此重要的事情现在看起来有些微不足道，因为你已经完成了它。
Where's the intrinsic motivation?
内在动力在哪里？
Where's the deep self-expression, right?
深层的自我表达在哪里，对吗？
You think about as we gain complexity in our psychology, and we can gain that complexity in many different ways, we hit this tunnel, right?
你想一想，当我们的心理变得复杂时，我们可以通过多种不同的方式获得这种复杂性，我们就进入了这个隧道，对吗？
And often when someone becomes self-aware, or when someone becomes less liberated, or the chains set in, or when one-- let's just say you're an extreme athlete, but you feel invincible, and then suddenly you have a terrible accident, and you realize, "Holy shit, I could actually die.
通常，当某人变得有自我意识时，或者当某人变得不那么自由时，或者锁链插入时，或者当一个人——比方说，你是一名极限运动员，但你感觉所向无敌，然后突然你遇到了一场可怕的事故，你意识到，“天哪，我真的可能会死。
I can break." Then how do you get back to that freedom of taking the wild risks that you've been taking as that extreme athlete with an awareness of the fact that you can die?
我可以打破。”那么，作为一名极限运动员，你如何才能重新获得自由，去承担疯狂的风险，并意识到你可能会死呢？
For me, I foil now on the biggest waves that I can find in where I live in Costa Rica, and you have big hold downs.
对我来说，我现在在哥斯达黎加居住的地方遇到了最大的波浪，并且有很大的阻力。
You're foiling on top of a long mast, which is a carbon mast, which is very sharp, and then a wing which is sharp, so you're basically going 40, 45 miles an hour on top of a guillotine.
你在一根长桅杆上挫败，这是一个碳桅杆，非常锋利，然后是锋利的机翼，所以你基本上是在断头台上以每小时 40、45 英里的速度行驶。
And if you're really cultivating high-performance foiling, you're pushing turns really hard, you're breaching wing tips, like you can taco and have the thing come right at your head or your neck.
如果你真的在培养高性能的挫败能力，你就会非常努力地推动转弯，你就会突破翼尖，就像你可以吃炸玉米饼一样，让东西直接射向你的头部或颈部。
You can die at any minute if you get something wrong.
如果你出了什么问题，你随时都可能死去。
Which is very different from just foiling straight or e-foiling.
这与直接箔或电子箔有很大不同。
We're talking about high-performance training.
我们正在谈论高绩效培训。
You, by definition, have to be risking these things in order to push the limits of what's possible.
根据定义，你必须冒这些风险才能突破可能的极限。
And if you're not, you're not at that stretch point, right?
如果你不这样做，你就没有处于那个紧张的时刻，对吗？
But then suddenly you have a terrible injury.
但突然你就受了重伤。
Or let's just say you're-- like I drowned on the bottom of a pool some 10, 11 years ago.
或者我们就说你——就像大约 10、11 年前我淹死在泳池底部一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I heard about this.
是的，我听说过这个。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah.
是的。
I was doing hypoxic breathwork.
我当时正在做低氧呼吸。
I did not realize, which maybe you could have taught me if I'd known you, that carbon dioxide is what gives you the urge to breathe.
我没有意识到，如果我认识你，你可能会教我，二氧化碳是让你呼吸的冲动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
I didn't realize that, so I had all the CO2 flushed out of my body.
我没有意识到这一点，所以我把所有的二氧化碳都排出了体外。
I felt blissful.
我感到很幸福。
I was swimming underwater.
我在水下游泳。
Yeah, and I blacked out.
是啊，然后我就昏过去了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Exhale, I guess we should save a few lives here or prevent a few deaths rather.
呼气，我想我们应该在这里拯救一些生命，或者避免一些死亡。
Anytime you emphasize the duration or intensity of your exhales, you're going to blow out more carbon dioxide.
任何时候你强调呼气的持续时间或强度，你都会呼出更多的二氧化碳。
Carbon dioxide is the trigger for the gasp reflex.
二氧化碳是喘息反射的触发因素。
So yes, you'll be able to hold your breath longer above or below water if you first do cyclic hyperventilation and then a long and dump all your air.
所以，是的，如果您首先进行循环过度换气，然后长时间排空所有空气，您将能够在水面或水下屏住呼吸更长时间。
But never, ever, ever do cyclic hyperventilation, folks, or any long exhale-emphasized breathing, even standing in a puddle, because that gasp reflex is the thing that makes you shoot for the surface.
但永远、永远、永远不要进行周期性换气过度，伙计们，或者任何强调呼气的长呼吸，即使是站在水坑里，因为喘息反射会让你冲向水面。
And if you don't do that, you feel pretty peaceful until lights out.
如果你不这样做，你会感觉很平静，直到熄灯。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Or drive a car.
或者开车。
Don't do it while driving a car.
开车时不要这样做。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or drive a car.
或者开车。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Which I know people who have done that.
我知道有人这样做过。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Actually, rather exceptional people who I know have done it.
事实上，我认识的相当杰出的人已经做到了。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dumping carbon dioxide lets you hold your breath longer, but that's part of the problem.
排出二氧化碳可以让你屏住呼吸的时间更长，但这就是问题的一部分。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
And shallow water blackout usually happens to very high-level athletes, Navy SEALs, right?
浅水停电通常发生在非常高水平的运动员、海豹突击队身上，对吗？
Because they're training at pushing their limits.
因为他们正在接受挑战极限的训练。
They're learning to suppress the urge to breathe.
他们正在学习抑制呼吸的冲动。
And if you're flushing CO2, you're training yourself not to feel it.
如果你排出二氧化碳，你就是在训练自己不要感觉到它。
And I've been a free diver my whole life.
我一生都是自由潜水员。
I grew up free diving, spearfishing in the Southern Bahamas.
我在巴哈马南部自由潜水和鱼叉捕鱼长大。
But I wasn't doing hypoxic breathwork while free diving.
但我在自由潜水时并没有进行低氧呼吸。
Here I was at the NYU pool.
我当时在纽约大学游泳池。
I drowned.
我淹死了。
I was on the bottom of the pool for four and a half minutes after blacking out, which-
昏过去后，我在泳池底部呆了四分半钟，这——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Four and a half minutes?
四分半钟？
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah.
是的。
Which I know because-
我知道是因为——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You should be dead.
你应该死了。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
I should be dead or brain damaged in a big way.
我应该死了或者脑部严重受损。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
I know the time it was because there was an old man who I knew who was in the locker room, who saw me in the bottom of the pool lying there, and he timed his laps, and he did four laps, and he said, "After the third one, I'm going to check on him." And then he did his fourth lap, pulled me in.
我知道时间是因为更衣室里有一位我认识的老人，他看到我躺在泳池底部，他给他的圈子计时，他跑了四圈，他说：“第三圈之后，我要去检查他。”然后他跑了第四圈，把我拉了进去。
His laps are a little bit over a minute.
他的圈速有一分钟多一点。
And I was unconscious for 25 minutes.
我昏迷了25分钟。
I was totally blue, except my face was blown out red, my eyes.
我脸色发青，除了我的脸和眼睛都被吹红了。
My training almost killed me and also saved me.
我的训练几乎要了我的命，也救了我。
My body handled it really well.
我的身体处理得很好。
I had no water in my lungs.
我的肺里没有水。
I spent that night in the hospital, of course.
当然，那天晚上我是在医院里度过的。
I remember doing old chess variations, testing my mind in any way, like was I ruined?
我记得做旧的国际象棋变体，以任何方式测试我的思想，就像我被毁了一样？
And I somehow survived, and I survived intact.
我不知何故活了下来，而且完好无损地活了下来。
And that's one of those shattering moments which I am ultimately grateful for, because it's what catalyzed me to-- I emerged with more of a commitment, and I've had this kind of commitment in my life for many years, but a more intense commitment to live life as truly and beautifully and authentically as conceivable.
这是我最终感激不尽的那些令人震惊的时刻之一，因为它促使我——我带着更多的承诺出现，而且我在生活中已经有这种承诺很多年了，但更强烈的承诺是要过上可以想象的真实、美丽和真实的生活。
And then soon after, we moved to the jungle, and we live now, which is awesome with my family.
不久之后，我们搬到了丛林，现在我们住在一起，这对我的家人来说真是太棒了。
But I bring that up now because imagine how one relates to big wave surfing or big wave foiling pre- and post-drowning.
但我现在提出这一点是因为想象一下人们在溺水前后与大浪冲浪或大浪挫败有何关系。
Right?
正确的？
One has to have an integrated sense for one's own mortality versus being naive to the fact that it can happen, right?
一个人必须对自己的死亡有一种综合的认识，而不是天真地认为它可能发生，对吗？
So that tunnel from the preconscious to the postconscious performer is a passage where during that passage, most people are locked up.
因此，从前意识到后意识表演者的隧道是一条通道，在这段通道中，大多数人都被锁住了。
They underperform where they were when they were more naive.
当他们更天真的时候，他们的表现就不佳。
And I don't personally relate to it as a return to the preconscious state.
我个人并不认为这是对前意识状态的回归。
I relate to it as an integration of one's mortality, of the existential absurdity into one's consciousness, and then a discovery of a deeper sense of liberation, of freedom, but that is not in denial of what we've learned in that tunnel or what triggered that tunnel, but that is more complex.
我将其视为将一个人的死亡、存在主义的荒谬融入一个人的意识，然后发现一种更深层次的解放感、自由感，但这并不否认我们在那个隧道中学到的东西或触发那个隧道的东西，但那更复杂。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Trying to be our previous selves is not a great strategy.
试图成为以前的自己并不是一个好的策略。
Trying to integrate our previous experiences in our current and future selves seems like a good strategy.
尝试将我们以前的经历融入到现在和未来的自我中似乎是一个很好的策略。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
I feel that way.
我有这样的感觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
And I think it's also pretty, you can't go back.
我觉得这也很漂亮，你不能回去。
You can't pretend that dying is impossible.
你不能假装死亡是不可能的。
You can't pretend that you're unbreakable.
你不能假装自己坚不可摧。
We are breakable.
我们是脆弱的。
Some people do it without being really reflective, but I think that if you ask anyone who really has been in life-and-death situations as a way of life for a long time, whether they relate to the idea of fearlessness, if they really reflect on it, they'll say no. Because fearlessness isn't a thing, it's how one works with fear.
有些人在没有真正反思的情况下就这样做了，但我认为，如果你问任何一个长期处于生死攸关的生活方式的人，他们是否认同无畏的想法，如果他们真正反思这一点，他们会说不。因为无所畏惧不是一件事，而是一个人如何应对恐惧。
Usually, what locks people up isn't fear, it's the fear of fear, right?
通常，把人锁起来的不是恐惧，而是对恐惧的恐惧，对吗？
We're afraid of our fear.
我们害怕我们的恐惧。
We're afraid of being afraid.
我们害怕被害怕。
But you ask a great Navy SEAL, they work with their fear.
但你问一位伟大的海豹突击队队员，他们会带着恐惧工作。
You ask a great MMA fighter, they're not without fear.
你问一位伟大的综合格斗选手，他们并非没有恐惧。
Of course, they have fear.
当然，他们也有恐惧。
If they don't have fear, they have a problem, right?
如果他们没有恐惧，他们就会有问题，对吗？
And there are some examples of people who might be wired a little bit differently, right?
有一些例子表明，人们的思维方式可能略有不同，对吧？
But the integration of the more complex worldview into one's liberation is the post-conscious performer, right?
但是将更复杂的世界观融入到一个人的解放中是后意识的表演者，对吧？
And it can play in lots of ways.
它可以通过多种方式发挥作用。
Right?
正确的？
It can also play-- And so one thing that when you think about a sports team that has accomplished everyone's dreams, and now we want to win a championship again, we can't go back to what worked before because they're different men.
它也可以发挥——所以，当你想到一支已经实现了每个人梦想的运动队，现在我们想再次赢得冠军时，我们不能回到以前的做法，因为他们是不同的人。
Right?
正确的？
One needs to find a different kind of mission, a different kind of internal relationship to the mission, a different kind of freedom.
人们需要找到一种不同的使命，一种与使命的不同的内部关系，一种不同的自由。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How important do you think it is to attach language to these things of identity and source of motivation?
您认为将语言与这些身份和动机来源联系起来有多重要？
In other words, let's say, okay, you're working with the Celtics.
换句话说，假设你在凯尔特人队工作。
They won the championship last year.
他们去年赢得了冠军。
This year, they are in a completely different mental frame as a consequence.
今年，他们的心理框架因此完全不同。
They're, quote-unquote, "dominant" in the sense that they hold the crown, they hold the trophy, but they're more vulnerable, too, because the only place to go from there is either stay or you're going down a notch or more.
毫无疑问，他们是“统治者”，因为他们手握王冠、奖杯，但他们也更脆弱，因为唯一的出路就是要么留下来，要么下降一个档次甚至更多。
So do you think it's important for them to create a verbal label for where they're at?
那么你认为他们为自己所处的位置创建一个口头标签重要吗？
Like, "We're the champs, and we're going to hold on to the belt.
就像，“我们是冠军，我们将保住金腰带。
We're going to hold on to..." I realize there's not a belt in basketball, by the way.
我们要坚持下去……”顺便说一句，我意识到篮球中没有腰带。
That they're going to hold on to their status, or is that the wrong way to think about it?
他们会保持自己的地位，还是这样思考是错误的？
Because the game is played through verbs.
因为这个游戏是通过动词来玩的。
It's not played through adjectives.
它不是通过形容词来发挥的。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
I don't think we ever want to hold on to.
我想我们永远都不想坚持下去。
That's static.
那是静态的。
You think about predator and prey dynamics in the world or in competition or in anything.
你会思考世界上、竞争中或任何事物中捕食者和猎物的动态。
You want to be competing.
你想要竞争。
Now, there's a fusion of the predator and prey.
现在，捕食者和猎物融合了。
You want to have the awareness that prey has, but one wants to be playing to win, not to lose.
你想要拥有猎物所拥有的意识，但人们想要赢得胜利，而不是失败。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
The moment we're trying to hold on to something we already have, we're falling into the static quality.
当我们试图抓住已经拥有的东西时，我们就陷入了静态的状态。
Right?
正确的？
Or you think about, for example, brilliant investors.
或者你想想，例如，杰出的投资者。
Right?
正确的？
They'll have success, and then they'll try to figure out how to replicate their success.
他们会取得成功，然后他们会尝试找出如何复制他们的成功。
So they'll build mental models, frameworks to replicate their success.
因此，他们将建立心理模型、框架来复制他们的成功。
And those become grooves, like neural pathways.
这些就变成了凹槽，就像神经通路一样。
So then they follow those grooves, but then the grooves become a rut, and the water stops, and they get stuck in an old...
然后他们沿着那些凹槽走，但随后凹槽变成了车辙，水就停了，他们陷入了旧的……
So they succeeded.
所以他们成功了。
They built mental models.
他们建立了心理模型。
They recreated the patterns.
他们重新创造了这些模式。
It was beautiful.
很漂亮。
But then it got static.
但随后它就变得静止了。
And then it's that stuck energy, and it doesn't apply to the world because the world's changing.
然后就是停滞的能量，它不适用于世界，因为世界正在变化。
And what actually made them succeed was dynamic quality, was being at, what Robert Persik would call the front of the freight train, driving through space-time, pre-intellectual consciousness.
而真正让他们成功的是动态品质，即罗伯特·佩尔西克所说的货运列车的前部，行驶在时空、前智的意识中。
Right?
正确的？
And then they're trying to recreate it, they're getting too stuck in things, and they create mental models that are stale.
然后他们试图重新创造它，他们太陷入困境，他们创建了陈旧的心理模型。
And then other people replicate those stale mental models, and you have huge industries that emerge from static quality layered on top of static quality, which is most of humanity.
然后其他人复制那些过时的心智模型，你就会拥有巨大的产业，这些产业是从静态质量中诞生的，而静态质量又是静态质量之上的，这就是人类的大部分。
Right?
正确的？
So I think that as a world-class competitor who's trying to win after winning, one needs to have the same dynamic mindset one had when one was hunting for it in the first place.
所以我认为，作为一名世界级的竞争者，想要一次又一次地获胜，就需要拥有与一开始追求胜利时一样的动态心态。
Rediscovery.
重新发现。
Marcelo Garcia, one of my favorite moments of Marcelo was, so Marcelo, nine-time world champion in the grappling arts, five-time ADCC, five-time Brazilian jujitsu, four-time ADCC.
马塞洛·加西亚，我最喜欢的马塞洛时刻之一，所以马塞洛，九届擒抱艺术世界冠军，五届 ADCC，五届巴西柔术，四届 ADCC。
ADCC is when Abu Dhabi Combat Championship, when all the different grappling arts come together.
ADCC 是阿布扎比格斗锦标赛，所有不同的格斗艺术齐聚一堂。
It happens every two years.
它每两年发生一次。
So Russian sambo, judo, wrestling, jujitsu.
所以俄罗斯桑博、柔道、摔跤、柔术。
Right?
正确的？
Everything comes together, and you see who's the strongest grappler in all the different arts.
一切都聚集在一起，你就会看到谁是所有不同艺术领域中最强的格斗手。
He's known by many as the greatest pound-for-pound grappler to ever live.
他被许多人称为有史以来最伟大的磅对磅格斗手。
Just for context, Marcelo is one of my dearest friends.
仅供参考，马塞洛是我最亲爱的朋友之一。
We own a school together in New York.
我们在纽约共同拥有一所学校。
We trained together for a very long time.
我们一起训练了很长时间。
He's in an amazing moment right now.
他现在正处于一个奇妙的时刻。
He and his wife, Tati, who's also one of my dearest friends, had a terrible tragedy years ago.
他和他的妻子塔蒂（Tati）也是我最亲爱的朋友之一，几年前经历了一场可怕的悲剧。
They lost a baby.
他们失去了一个孩子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
And just a devastating period.
这只是一个毁灭性的时期。
And then Marcelo had cancer.
然后马塞洛得了癌症。
He had stomach cancer.
他患有胃癌。
He had surgery, eight rounds of chemotherapy.
他接受了手术和八轮化疗。
He hasn't competed in 13 years, and he's actually competing tomorrow for the first time in, I think it's 13 years, in Bangkok.
他已经 13 年没有参加比赛了，实际上他明天将在曼谷参加比赛，我想这是 13 年来他第一次参加比赛。
It was going to be in Denver, and I was going to fly there between the Lakers and the Mavs games, but it's in Bangkok, so I can't get there.
本来是在丹佛，我本来打算在湖人队和小牛队的比赛之间飞去那里，但它在曼谷，所以我无法到达那里。
But he's weighed in.
但他已经权衡了。
He's doing great.
他做得很好。
He's feeling awesome.
他感觉棒极了。
So, the story I'm about to tell is about this epic, beautiful human being who, in many ways, he's the innovator that led to much of what is modern grappling today.
所以，我要讲的故事是关于这个史诗般的、美丽的人，从很多方面来说，他都是导致当今现代格斗的创新者。
So back in, I think it was 2005 and 2007, this story, or maybe it's 2007, 2009.
回到过去，我认为这个故事是 2005 年和 2007 年，或者可能是 2007 年、2009 年。
I think it's 2005 and 2007.
我记得是2005年和2007年。
Chronology is not a strong point for me in terms of my recollection in general.
就我的记忆而言，时间顺序对我来说并不是一个强项。
We were in a training camp We were training all the time.
我们在训练营里，我们一直在训练。
He had this innovative repertoire.
他拥有这种创新的曲目。
He goes into ADCC, dominates it, and it's a very specific repertoire, back-taking repertoire, guillotines.
他进入ADCC，主宰它，这是一个非常具体的曲目，反悔曲目，断头台。
Just dominates, blows the grappling world away.
只要占据主导地位，就能将格斗世界吹散。
For the two years that followed him winning that ADCC, the entire grappling world was studying what he had just done.
在他赢得 ADCC 后的两年里，整个格斗界都在研究他刚刚所做的事情。
Well, a lot of the grappling world was studying what he just had done and recreated.
好吧，格斗界的很多人都在研究他刚刚所做的和重新创造的事情。
It was so beautiful, innovative, powerful, playing up weight classes, just unbelievable.
它是如此美丽、创新、强大，在重量级别上表现得令人难以置信。
I was on the mats with Marcelo the next day, the Monday after he fought Sunday.
第二天，也就是他周日比赛后的周一，我和马塞洛一起在垫子上。
I also want to say, in all the years I had of training with Marcelo, I never saw him miss a Monday training after winning a major competition on Sunday.
我还想说，在我和马塞洛一起训练的这些年里，我从未见过他在周日赢得一场重要比赛后错过了周一的训练。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Everyone takes time off.
每个人都有时间休息。
I never saw him miss a Monday.
我从未见过他缺席星期一。
You talk about dynamic quality and humility and a way of life, right?
你谈论的是动态品质、谦逊和一种生活方式，对吧？
The Monday he was on the mats, he shed the entire repertoire.
周一他在垫子上的时候，他放弃了所有的曲目。
So he just won the world championship.
所以他刚刚获得了世界冠军。
Everyone spent the next two years chasing his quality, which was dynamic, they turned it static.
接下来的两年里，每个人都在追求他的品质，原本是动态的，但他们把它变成了静态。
He shed the whole repertoire and created a whole new repertoire.
他摆脱了整个剧目并创造了全新的剧目。
And he was playing this omoplata game, which he then went on the next ADCC two years later and won again with this brand-new thing.
他当时正在玩这个 omoplata 游戏，两年后他又参加了下一届 ADCC，并凭借这个全新的东西再次获胜。
Just shedding the snake skin or shedding the old shell, right?
只是脱掉蛇皮或者脱掉旧壳吧？
It's such a beautiful example of pushing one's limits as a way of life, not being stuck in old mental models, right?
这是一个很好的例子，将突破自己的极限作为一种生活方式，而不是陷入旧的思维模式，对吧？
Breaking new ground as a way of life, dynamic quality.
开拓新天地是一种生活方式，充满活力的品质。
That's what it takes.
这就是它所需要的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so hard for people to do.
人们很难做到。
I think about Michael Jordan and the fact that he wanted to be a pro baseball player, so he had a brief stint at that, and it was underwhelming, certainly compared to his basketball career.
我想到了迈克尔·乔丹，以及他想成为一名职业棒球运动员的事实，所以他曾短暂地从事过这方面的工作，但与他的篮球生涯相比，这确实给人留下了深刻的印象。
But of course, his basketball career was so spectacular that the expectation wasn't there.
但当然，他的篮球生涯是如此辉煌，以至于人们对他的期望并不高。
But nonetheless, it's so rare to find people that are super successful repeatedly within domain, let alone across domains.
但尽管如此，很难找到在某个领域内反复取得超级成功的人，更不用说跨领域了。
It's just-
这只是——
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
Richard Feynman, yeah, he could paint a little bit and draw a little bit, but I don't know.
理查德·费曼，是的，他会画一点画，但我不知道。
I've seen those pictures of the roosters.
我看过那些公鸡的照片。
They're kind of first-year art school.
他们是一年级艺术学校。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's cool.
所以这很酷。
Like cool, you learn to draw and paint, but if his name wasn't on them, no one would care.
就像酷一样，你学习画画，但如果上面没有他的名字，没有人会在乎。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Well, Jordan had just an incredible competitive drive.
嗯，乔丹有令人难以置信的竞争动力。
Incredible competitive drive.
令人难以置信的竞争动力。
It's very hard to replicate success in an art because one shouldn't replicate.
复制一门艺术的成功是非常困难的，因为人们不应该复制。
One should drive to recreate, to rediscover, right?
人们应该努力去重新创造、重新发现，对吧？
It's like a recreation of something new, not old, right?
这就像对新事物的重新创造，而不是旧事物，对吗？
I think the impulse once one wins is to do what one did before.
我认为获胜后的冲动就是做以前做过的事情。
But the world changes.
但世界发生了变化。
One of the gifts the Celtics have this year is that everyone is targeting us, right?
凯尔特人队今年的礼物之一就是每个人都在瞄准我们，对吗？
Because we're the champions.
因为我们是冠军。
We won it last year.
去年我们赢了。
And so everyone brings an extra 30% every night, every team.
所以每支球队每晚每个人都会额外贡献 30%。
And the NBA is stacked with brilliant athletes.
NBA 不乏才华横溢的运动员。
Even the lower-level teams from the outside in are filled with amazing athletes who, if you're the game of the week or the month for them, they bring it all.
即使是低级别的球队，从外到内也充满了出色的运动员，如果你是他们本周或每月的最佳比赛，他们就会带来一切。
So all of our weaknesses are being exposed, which is what we want, right?
那么我们所有的弱点都被暴露了，这就是我们想要的，对吗？
And so there's growing pains.
所以就有了成长的烦恼。
You work through it all.
你会努力完成这一切。
And so the good thing about the competitive truth-telling world is that our competitors, our rivals, help force us to take our shit on.
因此，竞争性的讲真话世界的好处是，我们的竞争对手，我们的对手，帮助迫使我们接受我们的狗屎。
Which makes it very hard to sit in static quality unless we're happy with mediocrity.
这使得我们很难保持静态的质量，除非我们对平庸感到满意。
Joe Mazzulla is the head coach of the Boston Celtics, and he and I are dear friends, and for the last two and a half years or so, we've been thought partners and brothers in this journey.
乔·马祖拉是波士顿凯尔特人队的主教练，他和我是亲密的朋友，在过去两年半左右的时间里，我们一直是这段旅程中的合作伙伴和兄弟。
And I've never seen anyone in my life better at turning weaknesses into strengths than Joe, which is a huge statement because I've spent my life with all-in performers.
我一生中从未见过比乔更擅长将弱点转化为优势的人，这是一个重要的声明，因为我一生都在与全力以赴的表演者一起度过。
Not taking weaknesses and making them less weak or leveling them out, but turning an area of core weakness into a core power zone.
不是消除弱点并削弱它们或将其拉平，而是将核心弱点区域转变为核心力量区域。
That's a superpower, and that's something that Joe does.
这是一种超能力，而这就是乔所做的事情。
Joe trains harder than anybody else, and he leads by example, and he leads with vulnerability.
乔训练比任何人都刻苦，他以身作则，也带着脆弱。
He embodies dynamic quality, and that's really special, and that's something I have unbelievable respect for.
他体现了充满活力的品质，这真的很特别，这是我令人难以置信的尊重。
And you look at Joe now, Joe just has learned to just thrive in pain and discomfort, in his limits, in living at his limits.
你现在看看乔，乔刚刚学会了在痛苦和不适中，在他的极限中，在他的极限中生活，茁壮成长。
And that's the leadership which I think will lead to beautiful things.
我认为这就是领导力，将带来美好的事物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I feel like there are at least three components to what you're describing.
所以我觉得你所描述的至少有三个组成部分。
One is that maybe in this preconscious phase, people are thinking about what they have to gain from this process that they're in, and the process is natural, at least to the extent that they're motivated to do it.
一是，也许在这个前意识阶段，人们正在思考他们必须从他们所处的这个过程中获得什么，并且这个过程是自然的，至少在他们有动机这样做的程度上是这样。
It comes from some source.
它来自某个来源。
This seems to be the stage and the thing that Rick Rubin is trying to tap into in the artists that he works with, whether or not they're established or new, is that it's the identification of that preconscious energy, which is so pure and so beautiful by definition.
这似乎就是里克·鲁宾（Rick Rubin）试图在与他合作的艺术家身上挖掘的东西，无论他们是老牌还是新人，那就是对前意识能量的识别，从定义上来说，这种能量是如此纯粹和美丽。
As opposed to the second thing, which is when people have something to lose.
与第二件事相反，第二件事是人们会失去一些东西。
They went from poverty to having a really nice home.
他们从贫困变成了一个非常美好的家。
They bought their mom a home.
他们给妈妈买了一套房子。
They're loving this life.
他们热爱这样的生活。
They don't want to lose it.
他们不想失去它。
They don't want to go back to where they were before, even though where they were before probably played a key role in that preconscious state that allowed them to get to that next level.
他们不想回到以前的位置，尽管他们以前的位置可能在使他们达到下一个水平的前意识状态中发挥了关键作用。
Versus something to protect.
与要保护的东西相对。
And trying to not lose everything you've got is very different than trying to protect certain elements of what one has.
试图不失去你所拥有的一切与试图保护一个人所拥有的某些元素是非常不同的。
So in terms of the Celtics, they hold the championship title now.
所以对于凯尔特人来说，他们现在握有总冠军头衔。
So they have something to lose, frankly.
坦率地说，他们会失去一些东西。
They could not get it again, but it's in the record books.
他们无法再次获得它，但它已被记录在案。
So it's nuanced, right?
所以它是微妙的，对吧？
It's not like in a fight you can get knocked out or worse.
这不像在战斗中你会被击倒或更糟。
But you're still a champion if you were a champion once.
但如果你曾经是冠军，你仍然是冠军。
Certain fields are like that
某些领域是这样的
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Well, going back to back is an approach way of framing that.
嗯，背对背是构建这一框架的一种方法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Going back to back is different from protecting the title.
背靠背和保护冠军是不同的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right, because then the words like reigning champions, it's like even though you're already the reigning champion.
是的，因为像卫冕冠军这样的词，就好像你已经是卫冕冠军一样。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or you think about dynasties.
或者你想想王朝。
I grew up when the 49ers were in multiple dynasties.
我是在 49 人队经历过多个王朝的时期长大的。
So it was the Joe Montana era and the Steve Young era, and these dynasties where they were just considered such an important team overall because of how long they were able to do what they did.
因此，在乔·蒙大拿时代和史蒂夫·杨时代，在这些王朝中，他们被认为是一支非常重要的球队，因为他们能够做他们所做的事情很长时间。
The Bulls, right?
公牛队，对吧？
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Tiger Woods.
泰格·伍兹。
And there seems to be a kind of obsession with this process, at least in the United States, where we love to see the rise of somebody from ignominy to fame or rags to riches.
人们似乎对这个过程有一种痴迷，至少在美国，我们喜欢看到一个人从耻辱到成名，从贫穷到富有。
But there also seems to be this kind of obsession with their fall, their demise, and then coming back again.
但似乎也有一种对他们的堕落、死亡、然后再次回归的痴迷。
And I think the most prominent example of this, in my mind, is Mike Tyson, whose life is, as a friend described it, is almost Shakespearean in the way that he came from nothing, then youngest heavyweight champion, then all these issues, legal and financial, then back again.
我认为，在我看来，这方面最突出的例子是迈克·泰森，正如一位朋友所描述的那样，他的生活几乎是莎士比亚式的，他白手起家，然后是最年轻的重量级冠军，然后是所有这些法律和财务问题，然后又回来了。
And now he seems to be in, he's at least of a level of status where he can wear his own shirt and no one thinks it's weird.
现在他似乎已经进入了，他至少达到了可以穿着自己的衬衫的地位，没有人认为这很奇怪。
It actually looks cool.
它实际上看起来很酷。
He's probably the only guy who can wear a shirt with his own name on it, and it just seems right.
他可能是唯一一个可以穿印有自己名字的衬衫的人，而且这看起来很合适。
Like he earned that one.
就像他赢得了那个一样。
And I think, ironically, it was "The Hangover," it was him pretending to have a, as an actor that kind of brought him back as a lovable character.
具有讽刺意味的是，我认为正是《宿醉》，作为一名演员，他假装拥有了一个可爱的角色。
It's kind of interesting.
这有点有趣。
He seems to now be on the Mount Rushmore of famous American athletes who, I only wish the best for him, but whatever happens next, it's cemented.
他现在似乎站在美国著名运动员的拉什莫尔山上，我只祝他一切顺利，但无论接下来发生什么，一切都已经确定。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Hmm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
His legacy is cemented.
他的遗产得到了巩固。
At some point, people's legacy is cemented, and I wonder how that feels too.
在某些时候，人们的遗产得到巩固，我也想知道那感觉如何。
So maybe we could talk about these different stages of the sine wave that hopefully is upward and drifting right.
因此，也许我们可以讨论正弦波的这些不同阶段，希望它们向上并向右漂移。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
One of the things that's very difficult in modern society, and in the life of a professional athlete or team in modern society, is that, you think about NBA players, they're always being interviewed by the media.
现代社会以及现代社会职业运动员或球队的生活中非常困难的一件事是，你想想 NBA 球员，他们总是接受媒体采访。
And the media's always trying to drum up drama.
媒体总是试图煽动戏剧性。
The media always asks the question that is exactly what the performance psychologist of the player would not want the player to think about.
媒体总是问的问题正是球员的表现心理学家不希望球员思考的问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
So for example, they might ask something about, "How do you feel knowing the expectations of you are so large you can never live up to them?" Right?
例如，他们可能会问这样的问题：“当你知道自己的期望如此之大而自己却永远无法实现时，你有何感受？”正确的？
Or, "Do you feel ashamed about your performance now because of the expectations on you?" The questions like that will be framed-
或者，“你是否因为别人对你的期望而对自己现在的表现感到羞愧？”诸如此类的问题将被框定——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Or your wife is eight months pregnant, like, "How do you feel being 5,000 miles away right now?" And you're just like-
或者你的妻子已经怀孕八个月了，比如，“你现在在 5,000 英里之外感觉如何？”而你就像——
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
That would be pretty benign compared to, right.
相比之下，这将是相当良性的，对吧。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
It's like, "Thanks."
就像是“谢谢”。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Right.
对。
Because you want a player to be liberated from self-consciousness.
因为你希望玩家从自我意识中解放出来。
You don't want a player to be playing with an awareness or a fixation on external expectations or the external eye.
你不希望玩家带着对外部期望或外在眼睛的意识或固定来玩游戏。
I remember the feeling in my chess life when I transitioned from losing myself in thought to thinking about how I looked thinking to the cameras or the groupies or whatever on the outside.
我记得在我的国际象棋生涯中，当我从沉迷于思考转变为思考自己面对镜头、追星族或其他任何人时的样子时的感觉。
Wildly different mindsets as a chess player, right?
作为国际象棋棋手，心态截然不同，对吧？
And so you have all these pressures that are trying to pull you out of an ideal performance state.
所以你面临着所有这些压力，试图让你脱离理想的表现状态。
And so one needs to learn, develop thick skin or a way of integrating it or be playful with it.
因此，一个人需要学习、培养厚脸皮或一种整合它或与它玩耍的方式。
And I really believe in embracing adversity.
我真的相信拥抱逆境。
We have this theme of hunting adversity on the team, which is these things that could be seen as detrimental or problems or things that could get in the way of our liberation as performers.
我们团队的主题是寻找逆境，这些逆境可能被视为有害的、问题的或可能妨碍我们作为表演者获得解放的事物。
We welcome them.
我们欢迎他们。
Like cold water, right?
就像冷水一样，对吗？
Getting in cold water every day is a very important, I think it's a beautiful opportunity to train.
每天进入冷水是非常重要的，我认为这是一个很好的训练机会。
It's so much.
就这么多了。
But we don't want to get into cold water gritting our teeth and hating it.
但我们不想陷入冷水中咬牙切齿地痛恨它。
No, we want to love the fact that we're about to suffer in that cold water.
不，我们想要喜欢这样一个事实：我们即将在冷水中受苦。
I've been cold plunging for many, many years, maybe 15 years.
我已经冷落了很多很多年，也许15年了。
And it's not like when you get into 34-degree water, even if you've been training for a very long time, you're thrilled about this five minute or 10-minute plunge you're about to do.
这并不像当你进入 34 度的水中时，即使你已经训练了很长时间，你也会为即将进行的 5 分钟或 10 分钟的跳水感到兴奋。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Most consistent stimulus for adrenaline release and noradrenaline release in the brain that is safe if done properly.
如果操作得当，对大脑中肾上腺素和去甲肾上腺素释放最一致的刺激是安全的。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you never really habituate.
而你永远不会真正习惯。
Maybe we'll just really quickly double-click on this thing of cold plunging.
也许我们会快速双击这个冷浸的东西。
I don't go for time.
我不赶时间。
I think only in terms of walls of adrenaline.
我认为仅就肾上腺素之墙而言。
So some days, just getting in the thing is a big wall.
所以有时候，仅仅进入这个东西就是一堵大墙。
I think of it just, for lack of a better word, as a wall.
由于找不到更好的词，我只是将其视为一堵墙。
On a hot day, I'm happy to get into the cold plunge.
在炎热的天气里，我很高兴能进入寒冷的地方。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But then what I think is so valuable about cold plunging is that if you start to focus on what neuroscientists call interoception, our perception of everything from our skin inward, you can start to feel the deployment of adrenaline in your body, or at least its effects.
但我认为冷潜的价值在于，如果你开始关注神经科学家所说的内感受，即我们对从皮肤向内的一切事物的感知，你就可以开始感受到肾上腺素在你体内的部署，或者至少是它的影响。
And you can say, "Here's another wall of adrenaline." You watch your frame rate go up, the impulse to stay still because as you move, you break up that thermal layer, it gets even colder.
你可以说，“这是另一堵肾上腺素墙。”你会看到帧速率上升，有保持静止的冲动，因为当你移动时，你会破坏热层，它会变得更冷。
But then you also want to get out, and then that wall passes.
但你也想出去，然后那堵墙就过去了。
And then you start to notice that the distance between the walls changes.
然后你开始注意到墙壁之间的距离发生了变化。
And then playing with that in one's mind as, when I distract myself, the walls come suddenly.
然后在脑海中思考这个问题，当我分散自己的注意力时，墙壁会突然出现。
Or when I'm focused on the walls, they seem like big swells as opposed to when I relax myself, they seem like just more sharp peaks.
或者当我专注于墙壁时，它们看起来像大浪，而当我放松自己时，它们看起来只是更尖锐的山峰。
And learning those dynamics of how adrenaline impacts us cognitively and frame rate and all that, I think is an immensely valuable practice.
我认为了解肾上腺素如何影响我们的认知和帧速率等动态是一种非常有价值的实践。
And I can't think of anything else, not sprinting, not lifting weights, not real-life arguments because that can be destructive.
我想不出其他的事情，除了短跑、举重、现实生活中的争论，因为这可能具有破坏性。
I can't think of any other kind of venue for exploring one's ability to work through stress and tension than the cold plunge.
我想不出还有什么比冷水浴更能探索一个人应对压力和紧张的能力的场所了。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
I agree.
我同意。
I have this ...
我有这个...
principle I call living on the other side of pain.
我称之为生活在痛苦的另一边的原则。
And I think that pain, mental discomfort, physical discomfort, or confronting some issue one doesn't want to think about, or taking on one's bias pattern, or if you're, let's just say, a professional decision-maker taking on what the network of your cognitive biases tends to lead to.
我认为疼痛、精神不适、身体不适，或者面对一些人们不想考虑的问题，或者接受自己的偏见模式，或者如果你是，让我们这么说，一个专业的决策者接受你的认知偏见网络往往会导致的结果。
These are all forms of pain, right?
这些都是痛苦的形式，对吧？
I think that cold water training is such an exquisite way to practice living on the other side of pain in a way that is thematically resonant, and doing that physical practice can liberate you in your mental arenas to take on shit you don't want to take on.
我认为冷水训练是一种很好的方式，可以以一种主题共鸣的方式练习生活在痛苦的另一边，并且进行这种身体练习可以解放你的精神领域，让你承担你不想承担的事情。
One thing I've found is that when you're training peak performers, there can be the impulse to go right at their weakness in the place they're making the error.
我发现的一件事是，当你训练表现最佳的人时，你可能会产生一种冲动，去弥补他们犯错误的弱点。
But it's usually much less potent to do it that way because they're well calloused over in that area.
但这样做通常效果要差得多，因为他们在那个区域已经麻木了。
So if you're a poker player who has some control issue, you could take on the control issue in poker, but they're so brilliant at poker.
因此，如果您是一名有控制问题的扑克玩家，您可以在扑克中解决控制问题，但他们在扑克方面非常出色。
They've built calluses around it, they've built ways of dealing with it, and they're able to play at a high level despite it.
他们已经在它周围建立了老茧，他们已经建立了处理它的方法，尽管如此，他们仍然能够打出高水平的比赛。
But they're probably very controlling at home as well with their spouse or their kids or whatever.
但他们在家里以及对待配偶、孩子或其他什么方面可能控制欲很强。
And if you take on the control issues in places they're much less developed, it'll be much easier to take it on because it's less calloused, and it will be massively liberating in their poker game.
如果你在他们不太发达的地方解决控制问题，那么解决起来会容易得多，因为它不那么冷酷无情，而且这将在他们的扑克游戏中带来巨大的解放。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
This idea of interconnectedness and thematic interconnectedness.
这种相互联系和主题相互联系的想法。
I'll identify a theme someone needs to work with, but then we'll practice that theme in other areas of their life.
我将确定一个人们需要处理的主题，然后我们将在他们生活的其他领域实践该主题。
And then you can have core habits which manifest that theme, and then there comes this amazing moment where the theme just becomes internalized because one practices it in things that are away from where it manifests professionally.
然后你可以拥有体现该主题的核心习惯，然后就会出现这个令人惊奇的时刻，该主题刚刚内化，因为人们在远离其专业表现的事物中实践它。
And then it just releases, and then all the manifestations of that theme just become your way of life.
然后它就释放了，然后该主题的所有表现就成为你的生活方式。
So, for example, if one wants to take on one's resistance to discomfort, to pain, to pushing one's limits, one can practice things like cold plunging, cardiovascular interval training, other things like withholding orgasm, whatever.
因此，举例来说，如果一个人想要增强对不适、疼痛、挑战极限的抵抗力，可以练习冷跳、心血管间歇训练、其他诸如抑制性高潮之类的练习。
You can have ways of practicing the theme that are completely separate from where it's manifesting or hindering you in your professional life, where you're probably very good at dealing with it, and then the unlock will just happen, and you'll be liberated from it.
你可以采取一些方法来练习这个主题，这些方法与它在你的职业生活中表现或阻碍你的地方完全分开，你可能非常擅长处理它，然后解锁就会发生，你就会从中解放出来。
This is one of the most powerful ways that I've found to train.
这是我发现的最有效的训练方法之一。
I also find cold plunging is just unbelievable for sleep quality.
我还发现冷泳对睡眠质量的影响令人难以置信。
I do contrast training now.
我现在做对比训练。
And I agree with you.
我同意你的观点。
For years, I was doing really long, cold, 36-degree water for 11 or 12 minutes, and I pushed-
多年来，我一直在 36 度的冷水中泡 11 或 12 分钟，然后我就——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow
哇
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
...
...
myself really hard.
自己真的很难。
And man, 11 minutes is so different from nine minutes.
伙计，11 分钟和 9 分钟有很大不同。
Oh, different worlds.
哦，不同的世界。
And now I have a practice of I'll do three to four rounds of 42 to 44 degrees between that and the sauna.
现在我有一个练习，就是在桑拿和桑拿之间进行三到四轮 42 到 44 度的练习。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
And I'll do one longer plunge a week.
我每周都会进行一次更长的潜水。
But in daily practice, I don't feel the urge to do very long breath holds or very long cold plunges.
但在日常练习中，我并没有感觉到长时间屏气或长时间冷跳的冲动。
I don't necessarily.
我不一定。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah, same.
是的，一样。
I'll do cold plunge for one to three minutes.
我会进行一到三分钟的冷跳。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I love contrast with heat.
我喜欢与热度形成对比。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Oh, so beautiful.
哦，真漂亮。
Best feeling ever.
有史以来最好的感觉。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm very heat tolerant.
而且我非常耐热。
I love the sauna.
我喜欢桑拿。
I don't love the cold, but I love the long arc of dopamine that comes after the cold.
我不喜欢寒冷，但我喜欢寒冷后产生的长长的多巴胺弧线。
I always say no one really enjoys being in the thing.
我总是说没有人真正喜欢参与其中。
You feel temporarily-
你暂时感觉——
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Is there a better sleep hack?
有没有更好的睡眠技巧？
I'm asking you because you know this stuff.
我问你是因为你知道这些东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, there are supplements that could support sleep and that kind of thing, and people learning how to deliberately relax their body can help with transition to sleep and back to sleep.
嗯，有一些补充剂可以支持睡眠之类的，人们学习如何刻意放松身体可以帮助过渡到睡眠和重新入睡。
But one core principle that I haven't really talked about on the podcast is that the more adrenaline, norepinephrine, noradrenaline, and dopamine that you experience early in the day, as well as cortisol from bright light, exercise, caffeine, and cold, the better you're going to sleep at night.
但我在播客上没有真正谈论的一个核心原则是，你在一天早些时候经历的肾上腺素、去甲肾上腺素、去甲肾上腺素和多巴胺越多，以及强光、运动、咖啡因和寒冷产生的皮质醇越多，你晚上睡得越好。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Huh.
呵呵。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It also sets your circadian rhythm around a big set of arousal-promoting stimuli early in the day, and then last third of your day, you're very parasympathetic, for lack of a better way to put it, and that eases the transition of sleep.
它还会在一天的早些时候围绕一系列促进唤醒的刺激来设定你的昼夜节律，然后在一天的最后三分之一，你的副交感神经会非常活跃，因为缺乏更好的方式来表达它，这会缓解睡眠的过渡。
Dimming the lights, parasympathetic.
调暗灯光，副交感神经。
Bright lights increases the amount of cortisol with your morning cortisol pulse by 50%, five zero, which is great.
明亮的灯光会使早晨皮质醇脉冲的皮质醇含量增加 50%（五个零），这很棒。
Keeps you less susceptible to infection all day, these kinds of things.
让你一整天都不易受到感染之类的东西。
We're meant to be in oscillation, obviously, across the 24-hour cycle, but even within the day.
显然，我们注定会在 24 小时周期内处于振荡状态，甚至在一天之内也是如此。
It's a little bit tougher when people have evening activities.
当人们进行晚间活动时，情况会有点困难。
Like last night, I was watching these guys play a hard game of basketball at 8:00 to 10:00 PM.
就像昨晚一样，我在晚上 8:00 到 10:00 观看这些家伙打一场艰苦的篮球比赛。
That's a lot of late-night work, so-
深夜工作量很大，所以——
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
And we're on the West Coast.
我们在西海岸。
You can think what time that is East Coast time.
你可以想想那是东海岸时间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Right?
对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
That's brutal.
这太残酷了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So is there a better sleep stack?
那么有没有更好的睡眠堆栈呢？
Not really.
并不真地。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And if you want to increase your rapid eye movement sleep non-pharmacologically, meaning not exogenous pharmacology, yeah, the cold plunge in the morning or early part of the day.
如果你想以非药物的方式增加快速眼动睡眠，也就是说不是外源性的药理学，是的，早上或一天早些时候的冷饮。
For evening, anything that moves blood out to your periphery, so sauna, hot shower, that sort of thing, is going to drop your core body temperature when you get out.
晚上，任何将血液输送到周围的东西，例如桑拿、热水淋浴等，都会在您外出时降低您的核心体温。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a little paradoxical to people, but you warm up to then cool off at the level of core body temperature, and it'll ease the transition of sleep.
这对人们来说有点矛盾，但你先热身，然后冷却到核心体温的水平，这会缓解睡眠的过渡。
Yeah.
是的。
No, it's a wonderful practice.
不，这是一个很棒的练习。
And people who pick at cold plunging, they're like, "Well, it blocks hypertrophy." Okay, yeah.
而那些选择冷跳的人会说，“嗯，它可以阻止肥大。”好吧，是的。
Okay, that's true.
好吧，确实如此。
So in the six hours after you're trying to get a little more peak on your biceps or something, it's going to block that.
因此，在你试图让二头肌或其他部位达到更高的峰值后的六个小时内，它会阻碍这一点。
But most people have not experienced control over their physiology at the level that comes from doing consistent cold plunging in the early part of the day, warming up and becoming more parasympathetic later in the day.
但大多数人都没有经历过对自己生理机能的控制，这种程度的控制来自于在一天的早些时候进行持续的冷跳，在当天晚些时候进行热身并变得更加副交感神经。
They start to feel a level of control over their mood and energy that's so striking with basically zero cost to most people.
他们开始感受到对自己情绪和精力的一定程度的控制，这对于大多数人来说几乎是零成本，这是非常惊人的。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah.
是的。
I agree.
我同意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Sorry to riff on that, but people will probably wonder about specifics.
很抱歉重复这一点，但人们可能会想知道具体细节。
I want to make sure that we talk about two things, and you can decide which one to talk about first.
我想确保我们谈论两件事，你可以决定先谈哪一件事。
One is ego- And then the second one is earlier you described a set of dynamics across the day and some concrete things about how one picks the most important question.
一个是自我——第二个是早些时候你描述的一系列一天中的动态以及一些关于如何选择最重要问题的具体事情。
What am I working on today?
我今天在做什么？
And how to push that into certain portions of the day, how long to do that, and then how to stay out of stimulus and response in the transition points so that you can make the most of that work or extract the most from that work as you head into the evening dinner with your family, sleep, and then wake up, repeat.
以及如何将其推进到一天中的某些部分，进行多长时间，然后如何在过渡点远离刺激和反应，以便您可以充分利用这项工作或从这项工作中获得最大收益，然后与家人共进晚餐，睡觉，然后醒来，重复。
Which one do you think would be most valuable?
您认为哪一件最有价值？
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Game to go wherever you want to go.
游戏可以带你去任何你想去的地方。
Where should we go?
我们应该去哪里？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All right.
好吧。
Before we get practical, let's get a little bit more theoretical and then get back to practical.
在我们开始实践之前，让我们先了解一些理论，然后再回到实践。
Ego.
自我。
The constriction is what comes to mind.
我想到的是收缩。
The idea that I want to impose my will on something.
我想将自己的意志强加于某事的想法。
I want a certain outcome, and if I don't get it, it's going to hurt in some way.
我想要一个特定的结果，如果我没有得到它，就会在某种程度上受到伤害。
There's some punishment mechanism internally that might drive me to work even harder.
内部有一些惩罚机制可能会促使我更加努力地工作。
It's not always bad.
这并不总是坏事。
But how do you frame ego?
但你如何塑造自我呢？
And I will say that the words I am seem very important, like when people identify as I am the champion, I'm part of a champion team in the NBA.
我想说的是，我这个词看起来非常重要，就像当人们认定我是冠军时，我是NBA冠军球队的一员。
I'm a Celtic.
我是凯尔特人。
I'm a player.
我是一名球员。
I'm a Celtics player.
我是凯尔特人队球员。
Clearly I'm not.
显然我不是。
But when we attach identity to ego, that's also where it seems like it deepens the trench a bit.
但当我们将身份与自我联系起来时，这似乎也加深了沟渠。
But maybe it can be more relaxed than the way I'm describing it.
但也许它可以比我描述的方式更轻松。
How do you think about ego?
你如何看待自我？
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
So Graham Duncan, my dear friend, joined us at the game last night.
所以我亲爱的朋友格雷厄姆邓肯昨晚加入了我们的比赛。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
And Graham I consider to be in the realm of elite mental talent mapping and assessment to just be in a league of his own.
我认为格雷厄姆在精英心理才能测绘和评估领域独树一帜。
He's such a genius in the realm of just finding and identifying people who have world-class potential in mental arenas in really quirky ways.
在以非常古怪的方式寻找和识别在精神领域具有世界级潜力的人方面，他是一位天才。
He's a beautiful soul.
他是一个美丽的灵魂。
And one of the ways he frames this in the investment space when he's looking at high-potential investors is he doesn't want to find people who have too specific an identity in the way that they relate to what they do to make money, to invest, to whatever.
当他在寻找高潜力投资者时，他在投资领域的方式之一是，他不想找到那些与他们赚钱、投资或其他任何事情相关的身份过于具体的人。
Because there's something static in I am a X, Y, or Z, versus I am something more broad, which leads to one's relationship to dynamic quality, to rediscovery, to changing as the world changes.
因为“我是 X、Y 或 Z”中有一些静态的东西，而“我是更广泛的东西”，这导致了一个人与动态质量、重新发现、随着世界变化而变化的关系。
Right?
正确的？
This relates a little bit to what I was describing in terms of learning chess locally versus learning chess in a way that connects to all of life, which is so dynamic.
这与我所描述的在本地学习国际象棋与以与生活的所有方式相联系的方式学习国际象棋有关，后者是如此充满活力。
I spent many years studying Mariamma Buddha's philosophy, and so I come from both a Western and Eastern perspective when I think about the question of ego.
我花了很多年研究马里安玛佛陀的哲学，所以当我思考自我问题时，我从西方和东方的角度来思考。
And I think that one of the things that happens in the West when we talk about East Asian philosophy is that we oversimplify it, and we polarize things.
我认为，当我们谈论东亚哲学时，西方发生的事情之一就是我们过于简单化它，并且我们使事物两极分化。
So it's easy to-- People talk so quickly about being egoless, right?
所以很容易——人们很快就谈论无私，对吗？
Or say someone is low ego.
或者说某人自我意识低下。
And when they say they're low ego, they don't actually mean that they're low ego.
当他们说自己低自我时，他们实际上并不意味着他们低自我。
They mean that they have a sound egoic structure.
他们意味着他们有健全的自我结构。
If they say they're low ego, they're usually saying that they're not expressing insecurity all the time, which means that it's not that they have a low ego, it's that their ego is not a rupture in the structure that's leaking all the time.
如果他们说自己的自我意识较低，那么他们通常是在说自己并没有一直表现出不安全感，这意味着并不是他们的自我意识较低，而是他们的自我意识并不是结构中一直在泄漏的裂痕。
So the way I relate to ego from a competitive perspective or from an artistic perspective or a self-cultivation perspective is that I relate to it around dynamic versus static, constant exploration as opposed to being stuck in how one relates to old patterns.
因此，我从竞争的角度、艺术的角度或自我修养的角度看待自我的方式是，我围绕动态与静态、不断的探索来看待自我，而不是陷入与旧模式的关系中。
I relate to understanding the emptiness of our egoic dynamics, understanding the non-absolute nature of our ego, the relational nature of things, the interconnectedness, and the interdependence of all things.
我涉及理解我们自我动力的空性，理解我们自我的非绝对本质，事物的关系本质，所有事物的相互联系和相互依赖。
I think it's so easy to have an identity which we think is like, "I am this." But we're not this.
我认为拥有一个我们认为“我就是这样”的身份是很容易的。但我们不是这个。
This doesn't exist out of relation to that, and that doesn't relate in relation to this other thing.
这个事物的存在并不与那个事物无关，而那个事物也与其他事物无关。
So understanding the chain of relationality, and then how our ego manifests in all of that.
因此，了解关系链，然后了解我们的自我如何在这一切中体现。
So having the ability to both dissolve one's relationship to static egoic dynamics, but also having a sense of identity and having a sense of what one's self-expression is and having-- There is this thing about will.
因此，有能力消除一个人与静态自我动态的关系，同时也有一种认同感，了解一个人的自我表达是什么，并且拥有——这就是关于意志的东西。
When you're competing, you can feel when someone has an unbreakable will.
当你参加比赛时，你可以感觉到某人有坚不可摧的意志。
When you're matching up against somebody and they're wishy-washy, you can just blow through them.
当你与某人较量时，如果他们软弱无能，你可以直接击败他们。
But when their will is just like-- I'll never forget Marcelo Garcia against Calasanz in a big world championship match.
但当他们的意志就像——我永远不会忘记马塞洛·加西亚在一场大型世界冠军赛中对阵卡拉桑斯。
Calasanz was wrist-locking everybody, and Marcelo put his hand right into the wrist lock and looked into his eyes, said, "Try it." Just put his hand into it.
卡拉桑斯用手腕锁住了每个人，马塞洛把手伸进手腕锁里，看着他的眼睛，说：“试试吧。”只要把手伸进去就可以了。
And you can break someone by being unbreakable.
你可以通过坚不可摧来摧毁某人。
You can see a lot of fights where somebody tries to submit someone, and someone is unsubmitted, and the person who has the huge advantage gets broken because they realize, holy shit, this guy is unbreakable, and so they become broken.
你可以看到很多战斗，有人试图屈服于某人，而有人不服从，拥有巨大优势的人被击垮了，因为他们意识到，天啊，这个家伙是牢不可破的，所以他们就被击溃了。
Right?
正确的？
So there's having the ability to have that-- When you touch a fighter, fighters all rub up against each other.
所以有能力做到这一点——当你触摸一名战士时，战士们都会互相摩擦。
You learn a lot feeling someone.
感受某人你会学到很多东西。
So if you meet fighters that hug, they'll give each other-- You learn so much on the touch.
因此，如果你遇到拥抱的拳击手，他们会互相拥抱——你可以从触摸中学到很多东西。
And you can feel when someone is brittle.
当某人脆弱时你可以感觉到。
You touch them, you can feel how much contact they've taken, how much they've been hit, how much they've absorbed, how much they've been abused, how much they've received.
你触摸他们，你可以感觉到他们受到了多少接触，他们受到了多少打击，他们吸收了多少，他们受到了多少虐待，他们受到了多少。
And you can feel where their energy stops.
你可以感觉到他们的能量停止在哪里。
You can feel if there's like- Just static things in them.
你可以感觉到其中是否有类似的东西——只是静态的东西。
And then you can also feel when the earth is moving inside of them, when it's just this molten energy, it's just moving in them.
然后你也可以感觉到当地球在它们内部移动时，当它只是这种熔化的能量时，它只是在它们内部移动。
And when you feel a body that it just can envelop you, and it can be a mountain, or it can be like water.
当你感觉到一个身体可以包围你时，它可以是一座山，也可以像水一样。
So I relate to ego in that.
所以我在这方面与自我有关。
You want to be able to be like water and be like a mountain.
你希望能够像水一样，像山一样。
I've never answered that question before, and I just riffed on that, but that's like the essence of how I relate to it.
我以前从未回答过这个问题，我只是简单地重复了一下，但这就是我与之相关的本质。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, it's beautiful.
不，它很漂亮。
And as I walked in here to take a seat at my chair, I got a good, hard slap on the back from you, and I was wondering if you were testing me.
当我走进这里坐在椅子上时，你在我的背上狠狠地拍了拍我，我想知道你是不是在考验我。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
I felt you last night, too.
昨晚我也感觉到了你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I won't ask what your read of my ego was, but I felt it as a slap of camaraderie, like let's do this.
我不会问你对我的自我的理解是什么，但我觉得这是友情的一记耳光，就像让我们这样做吧。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which felt great.
这感觉很棒。
And I was also thinking about my good friend Lex Fridman, who is a black belt in Brazilian jujitsu and a very intense guy who wears his heart on his sleeve publicly, and people sometimes will take shots at him for that, which really upsets me.
我还想到了我的好朋友莱克斯·弗里德曼（Lex Fridman），他是巴西柔术黑带，也是一个非常热情的人，他在公开场合表露自己的心声，人们有时会因此向他开枪，这真的让我很不高兴。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
I really respect Lex.
我真的很尊重莱克斯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
I think what he does is awesome.
我认为他所做的事情很棒。
I love his podcast.
我喜欢他的播客。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He's brilliant.
他很聪明。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
And the way he, in really prickly issues, has got people on both sides of things and welcomes everyone in and has dialogue.
在真正棘手的问题上，他让双方持不同意见，欢迎所有人参与并进行对话。
I have a huge amount of respect for how Lex handles himself in the public world.
我非常尊重 Lex 在公共世界中的表现。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, you guys would have a fun conversation.
是的，你们会聊得很开心的。
He's going to be jealous that we got a chance to sit down here.
他会嫉妒我们有机会坐在这里。
But Lex is at home and with his friends, exactly how he appears to be.
但莱克斯在家并和他的朋友们在一起，正如他看上去的那样。
All that intense self-torture around what to do and how to frame something, who to talk to, how to talk to them, and that's the world he lives in.
所有关于该做什么、如何构建某事、与谁交谈、如何与他们交谈的强烈自我折磨，这就是他生活的世界。
But in terms of his physicality, I think it's hard to understand just how he's dense, like dark matter.
但就他的物理性质而言，我认为很难理解他的密度如何，就像暗物质一样。
And I think a lot of guys that roll jujitsu, you shake their hands, and there's a solidity there that's very different than just muscle.
我认为很多打柔术的人，你握他们的手，那里有一种坚固性，这与肌肉有很大不同。
It's like people that are just they're used to being up against bodies, apparently.
显然，就像人们习惯了与身体对抗一样。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Oh, man.
哦，伙计。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's an experience.
这是一种体验。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
These are subtle things, but clearly they matter.
这些都是微妙的事情，但显然它们很重要。
And as you've pointed out, one brings them to their professional life.
正如您所指出的，人们将他们带入职业生涯。
You bring it to friendships.
你把它带到友谊中。
I have many super, quote-unquote, "solid friends," but Lex is among the most solid of them.
我有很多超级、不言而喻的“可靠的朋友”，但莱克斯是其中最可靠的一个。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Beautiful.
美丽。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
His presence.
他的存在。
Yeah.
是的。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
He has a courageousness with which he, in my observation from afar, comports himself in the world that I have a lot of respect for.
在我从远处观察时，他有一种勇气，在我非常尊重的世界里表现得如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
And Rick Rubin.
还有里克·鲁宾。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We both know Rick, and people know Rick as this bearded icon of creativity, and he is indeed that.
我们都认识里克，人们都知道里克是这位留着胡须的创造力偶像，他确实就是这样。
The fluidity that he moves through life with is just astonishing.
他生活的流动性令人惊讶。
I've spent a lot of time with him, and I don't want to get into my observations of Rick, the Rick-isms, if you will, but it's astonishing how much attention he puts into creating this thing that we're talking about, space, like getting out of stimulus and response.
我花了很多时间和他在一起，如果你愿意的话，我不想谈论我对瑞克的观察，瑞克主义，但令人惊讶的是他投入了如此多的注意力来创造我们正在谈论的这个东西，空间，比如摆脱刺激和反应。
I don't think he'd mind me sharing this.
我认为他不会介意我分享这个。
It's not uncommon for me to go over to hang out with him, and he'll just say, "Hey, before we talk, you want to just do this meditation?" And we'll just sit there and meditate.
我过去和他一起出去玩的情况并不罕见，他只会说：“嘿，在我们谈话之前，你想先做一下冥想吗？”我们就坐在那里冥想。
And you quickly go into a mindset of, "Oh my goodness, this is a thing." But nope, you just get into being present, and then, I don't know, then you hang out, and you talk about, if you're us, The Ramones, because we both love The Ramones.
你很快就会陷入这样的心态：“天哪，这是一件事。”但不，你只是进入现场，然后，我不知道，然后你出去玩，然后谈论，如果你是我们，雷蒙斯乐队，因为我们都喜欢雷蒙斯乐队。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
So I love the way you frame ego.
所以我喜欢你塑造自我的方式。
I think that's very helpful because a physical embodiment of something that is largely psychological to most people, at least the concept, I think is very helpful.
我认为这非常有帮助，因为对大多数人来说，很大程度上是心理上的某种东西的物理体现，至少是概念，我认为非常有帮助。
Do you ever, just as a practice, just look at how people walk or how they interact or-
作为一种练习，你是否曾经观察过人们如何走路或如何互动，或者-
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Oh, yeah
哦，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Of course.
当然。
That's my way of life.
这就是我的生活方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
It's funny, as a chess player even, I used to study people off the board all the time.
有趣的是，即使作为一名国际象棋棋手，我也经常研究棋盘外的人。
I'd watch them.
我会看着他们。
I remember we used to play these tournaments in Bermuda, and once a year, an invitational high-level tournament, and then you'd watch someone walking, and they'd get caught in the rain.
我记得我们曾经在百慕大参加这些比赛，每年一次，一场高级别邀请赛，然后你会看到有人走路，他们会被雨淋到。
And watching someone in the rain-
并在雨中看着某人——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
...
...
you learn so much.
你学到了很多东西。
Would they just stand and embrace it?
他们会站起来拥抱它吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Would they put something over their head and run away?
他们会用什么东西蒙在头上然后逃跑吗？
What would they do, right?
他们会做什么，对吗？
And in general, if someone has a static, negative relation to the rain, they're usually pretty controlling, and then you have a feel for how to handle them on the board, create chaos on that board.
一般来说，如果某人与雨有静态的、负面的关系，他们通常很有控制欲，然后你就会知道如何在棋盘上处理他们，在棋盘上制造混乱。
Just mix it up, make it uncontrollable.
只要混在一起，就无法控制。
Or if someone is a full free spirit in the rain, like me, maybe you want to make the game a little bit more quiet, conservative, strategic, not so chaotic, where one has to find exact, precise solutions and specific kinds of positions, where you can't improvise.
或者，如果有人像我一样在雨中充满自由精神，也许你想让游戏变得更加安静、保守、有策略，而不是那么混乱，人们必须找到准确、精确的解决方案和特定类型的位置，而你不能即兴发挥。
You're not finding hidden harmonies in chaos.
你无法在混乱中找到隐藏的和谐。
You're finding specific thing, right?
你正在寻找具体的东西，对吗？
Control and reign.
控制和统治。
And then in the fight game, man, you're watching people all the time.
然后在格斗游戏中，伙计，你一直在观察别人。
You watch fighters watching one another.
你会看到战士们互相注视。
You see a lot.
你看到很多。
Feeling one another, watching one another.
彼此感受，彼此注视。
And I love watching people away from what they do, because all those themes are much more visible than in when they're doing what they do.
我喜欢观察人们远离他们正在做的事情，因为所有这些主题比他们正在做的事情时更加明显。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What about in non-competitive endeavors like ballet, opera, music, where certainly it's competitive in that you're competing for people's attention, time, and money, but it's not direct competition.
那么在芭蕾舞、歌剧、音乐等非竞争性活动中呢？这些活动当然具有竞争性，因为你在争夺人们的注意力、时间和金钱，但这不是直接竞争。
Do you spend time working with peak performers in these domains?
您是否花时间与这些领域的顶尖人才一起工作？
I heard from someone recently who, she said, "I'm a good dancer, but then I went to New York, and I discovered that I'm not such a good dancer." The level of who gets to actually dance in some of the premier venues there is so unbelievably high that- And by the way, that shouldn't discourage anyone.
我最近听某人说，“我是一个很好的舞者，但后来我去了纽约，我发现我不是一个很好的舞者。”在一些顶级场所真正跳舞的人的水平高得令人难以置信——顺便说一句，这不应该让任何人泄气。
That should encourage people.
这应该鼓励人们。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Show them what's possible.
向他们展示什么是可能的。
Do you work with people like that, or is it usually competitive arenas?
你是否与这样的人一起工作，或者通常是竞争激烈的舞台？
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
I've utilized competitive fields as beautiful laboratories for refining my relationship to the training process because of how relentlessly truth-telling they are.
我利用竞争性的领域作为美丽的实验室来改善我与培训过程的关系，因为它们是多么无情地讲真话。
But I also come from a family of artists.
但我也来自一个艺术家家庭。
My grandmother was a brilliant abstract expressionist painter and sculptor, Stella Waitzkin, amazing woman.
我的祖母是一位杰出的抽象表现主义画家和雕塑家，斯特拉·维茨金，一位了不起的女人。
She was good friends with Hans Hofmann and de Kooning and Jackson Pollock.
她与汉斯·霍夫曼、德库宁和杰克逊·波洛克是好朋友。
I mean, that was her crowd.
我的意思是，那是她的人群。
She was part of the early Beat Generation back in the day.
她是当时早期“垮掉的一代”的一员。
And I come from a family of artists.
我来自一个艺术家家庭。
And, yeah, a lot of what I'm thinking about in recent years is how to channel my life's work into making the biggest positive impact possible in the world.
是的，近年来我思考的很多事情都是如何利用我一生的工作对世界产生最大的积极影响。
And I'm really worried in this moment around what's happening in human consciousness, the depths of distraction.
此时此刻，我真的很担心人类意识中正在发生的事情，以及分心的深度。
How can we enhance the human ability to make decisions in an increasingly complex world where there's so much misinformation?
在这个日益复杂、错误信息如此之多的世界中，我们如何才能增强人类的决策能力？
And also, how can we take on humanity's biggest challenges?
而且，我们如何应对人类最大的挑战？
And so, for example, one of the projects that I'm really excited about, that I've been working on for the last couple of years is called Lila Science.
举例来说，我非常兴奋的项目之一是我过去几年一直致力于的项目之一，叫做“Lila Science”。
And these aren't competitors, these are scientists.
这些不是竞争对手，而是科学家。
So I was sitting with this question for two or three years, who should I partner with to try to take on humanity's biggest challenges?
所以我思考这个问题两三年了，我应该与谁合作来应对人类最大的挑战？
And I met this guy.
我遇到了这个人。
He ended up renting Graham's house, who we were at the game with yesterday, next door to mine in Costa Rica.
他最终租了格雷厄姆的房子，我们昨天和他一起去看了比赛，就在哥斯达黎加我的房子隔壁。
And his name is Jeff Von Montson.
他的名字叫杰夫·冯·蒙特森。
And Jeff is just a brilliant scientific visionary and creator.
杰夫只是一位杰出的科学梦想家和创造者。
And we ended up having three weeks of dialogue, and I incidentally invested in one of his companies years before, which was interesting.
我们最终进行了三周的对话，几年前我顺便投资了他的一家公司，这很有趣。
But we had this incredible three weeks of dialogue while he was staying next door, and then we looked at each other and realized we should be teaming up.
但当他住在隔壁时，我们进行了令人难以置信的三周对话，然后我们互相看着对方，意识到我们应该合作。
And I've also been very close to and observing the world of artificial intelligence for a long time, partially because Demis Hassabis was a childhood friend of mine.
我也很长时间以来一直非常接近和观察人工智能的世界，部分原因是 Demis Hassabis 是我儿时的朋友。
We grew up playing chess together from when we were 11 years old.
我们从11岁起就一起下棋长大。
And so I observed his journey.
于是我观察了他的旅程。
And I think that it's very interesting in chess, the seat that I had watching the impact on chess of first computers, increasingly powerful machines, and then artificial intelligence was fascinating.
我认为国际象棋非常有趣，我亲眼目睹了第一台计算机、日益强大的机器以及人工智能对国际象棋的影响，这非常令人着迷。
Because if you imagine what it's like to see one's life's work be overcome in three hours of experimentation, like what AlphaZero did, just breathtaking.
因为如果你想象一下，看到一个人毕生的努力在三个小时的实验中被克服是什么感觉，就像 AlphaZero 所做的那样，真是令人惊叹。
And to give some perspective on things, there's an ELO system in chess.
为了提供一些看待事物的视角，国际象棋中有一个 ELO 系统。
There's a ranking system.
有一个排名系统。
The highest-rated chess players in the world, human chess players are rated from Garry Kasparov, Magnus Carlsen, Bobby Fischer, all the world champions are rated somewhere in the 2800 to 2900 level.
世界上评分最高的国际象棋棋手，人类棋手的评分是加里·卡斯帕罗夫、马格努斯·卡尔森、鲍比·费舍尔，所有世界冠军的评分都在2800到2900级之间。
ELO.
埃洛。
The strongest AI engines now are north of 3800 ELO.
现在最强的 AI 引擎已经超过 3800 ELO。
And just for context of how wild that gap is, when I was eight years old, my rating was 1800.
就为了说明这种差距有多么巨大，当我八岁时，我的评分是 1800。
So the gap between me at eight, which is like I was ridiculous, and the world champion human is the same gap as the world champion and the strongest AI engines in the world.
所以我八岁的差距，这就像我和人类世界冠军之间的差距，与世界冠军和世界上最强的人工智能引擎的差距是一样的。
And so it's very hard for humans to conceive of being the ants relative to the humans.
因此，人类很难想象自己是相对于人类而言的蚂蚁。
We are the ants now in terms of, or we soon will be, what is possible.
就可能发生的事情而言，我们现在就是蚂蚁，或者我们很快就会成为蚂蚁。
And I think that that could be channeled for the good or it could be channeled for the bad.
我认为这可能会带来好处，也可能会带来坏处。
And the question, what are the motivations of the people who are really driving these companies?
问题是，真正推动这些公司发展的人的动机是什么？
So I've been thinking for a long time of how to combine what's the light side of the force of the artificial intelligence world?
所以我一直在思考如何结合人工智能世界的力量的光明面是什么？
And what Jeff and I and a dear friend, Chris Fussell, who is a brilliant man who wrote "Team of Teams" and "One Mission." He was an elite Navy SEAL, and then he ended up running Joint Special Operations Command, JSOC, with Stan McChrystal.
还有杰夫和我以及一位亲爱的朋友克里斯·福塞尔，他是一位才华横溢的人，写了《团队中的团队》和《同一个使命》。他是一名精英海豹突击队队员，后来与斯坦·麦克里斯特尔一起负责联合特种作战司令部（JSOC）。
Then he was president of the McChrystal Group, and now he's president of Lila Science.
随后他担任 McChrystal Group 总裁，现在担任 Lila Science 总裁。
Jeff, Chris, and I, and a brilliant man named Jack Millwood, who's the chief cultural officer, have been teaming up.
杰夫、克里斯和我，以及一位名叫杰克·米尔伍德（Jack Millwood）的才华横溢的人，他是首席文化官，一直在合作。
And I brought together this tribe of a few different brilliant friends who are part of this.
我把这个由几个不同的才华横溢的朋友组成的部落聚集在一起，他们也是这个部落的一部分。
And it's basically taking cutting-edge science and taking cutting-edge AI, bring them together to create scientific super intelligence.
它基本上是采用尖端科学和尖端人工智能，将它们结合在一起创造科学的超级智能。
And we're creating these AI science factories where the entire scientific process can be replicated, can be driven non-stop the way AlphaZero was driving non-stop iteration in the chess world.
我们正在创建这些人工智能科学工厂，整个科学过程可以被复制，可以像 AlphaZero 在国际象棋世界中推动不间断迭代一样不间断地驱动。
What if this is happening in the scientific process from-
如果这发生在科学过程中怎么办？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So pose a hypothesis.
所以提出一个假设。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Study of-
研究-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Isolate variables, test hypothesis, feedback to hypothesis, confirm or deny hypothesis, and just-
隔离变量，检验假设，反馈假设，确认或否认假设，然后-
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
And experimental design and experimental execution, and then study of experimental results, and study of the entire scientific literature.
以及实验设计和实验执行，然后研究实验结果，并研究整个科学文献。
And imagine all of that happening with robotics, with 3800 ELO-rated scientists, AI scientists, and then millions of them networked.
想象一下所有这一切都发生在机器人领域，有 3800 名 ELO 级科学家、人工智能科学家，然后数以百万计的科学家联网。
And now, if you have this, from my perspective, the most important thing is the safety.
现在，如果你有这个，从我的角度来看，最重要的是安全。
And I think that a lot of these AI companies aren't prioritizing safety first.
我认为很多人工智能公司并没有把安全放在第一位。
We are.
我们是。
And I think for me, it's been a really important thing thinking about this because I've been sitting with this question for a lot of years.
我认为对我来说，思考这个问题非常重要，因为我多年来一直在思考这个问题。
In order to do something like this, you have to trust that the people who are driving it, if they have max temptation, but something could be like the Manhattan Project, could be potentially negative for humanity, that they would not push the button.
为了做这样的事情，你必须相信推动它的人，如果他们有最大的诱惑，但像曼哈顿计划这样的事情可能对人类有潜在的负面影响，他们不会按下按钮。
They would lead to the satisfaction of all their dreams if it would be taking an existential risk for humanity.
如果他们要冒着人类生存的风险，他们就能实现所有梦想。
And this team, I really believe in that way.
我真的相信这个团队。
And so what's most exciting to me about this is the material science side.
因此，最令我兴奋的是材料科学方面。
I mean, the life sciences, the eradication of disease, it's unbelievable what could happen.
我的意思是，生命科学，疾病的根除，将会发生令人难以置信的事情。
I think we'll be blown away by what happens in the coming years.
我想我们会对未来几年发生的事情感到震惊。
But the material science part of it, for me personally, is what matters most, because I really don't think it matters if humans are all living for 150, 200 years if we have no climate to live on.
但对我个人而言，其中的材料科学部分是最重要的，因为我真的认为，如果我们没有气候可以生存，人类能活到 150、200 年，这并不重要。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
And the material innovations that could be emerging in the coming years to take on the climate crisis are breathtaking.
未来几年可能出现的应对气候危机的材料创新令人惊叹。
So it's a project I'm deeply involved in, and it has nothing to do with competition.
所以这是一个我深度参与的项目，与竞争无关。
I guess everything-
我猜一切——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
...
...
is competitive from one perspective-
从某个角度来看是有竞争力的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
...
...
but this is about driving discovery, driving innovation.
但这是为了推动发现、推动创新。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love it.
我喜欢它。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It also reflects your clearly repeating pattern of being willing to segment your life into different goals and different pursuits, applying what you've learned previously, learning new things, and incorporating those.
它还反映出你明显重复的模式，愿意将你的生活分为不同的目标和不同的追求，应用你以前学到的东西，学习新的东西，并将它们融入其中。
It brings me back to two things that we touched on earlier.
这让我回到了我们之前提到的两件事。
One, that if we don't close the hatch on, we're going to get it from the listeners, which is this paper that we both read, or took a look at.
第一，如果我们不关闭舱口，我们将从听众那里得到它，这是我们都读过或看过的这篇论文。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Before the paper, let me just say one important thing.
在发表论文之前，让我先说一件重要的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
To me, what you just said really hits home.
对我来说，你刚才说的很切中要害。
But I think while one is taking on all these different things, for me personally, it's important to always be in the fire.
但我认为，当一个人承担所有这些不同的事情时，对我个人来说，始终处于火中是很重要的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
I need to be training myself, like what I'm doing on the ocean every day in my own training.
我需要训练自己，就像我每天在海上训练一样。
The thing that drives me crazy are armchair quarterbacks, or what Robert Pirsig used to call philosophologists.
让我发疯的是纸上谈兵的四分卫，或者罗伯特·波西格（Robert Pirsig）过去所说的哲学家。
Right?
正确的？
Or the literary critic versus the writer, or the philosophologist versus the philosopher, or the armchair quarterback versus the quarterback.
或者文学批评家与作家，或者哲学家与哲学家，或者扶手椅四分卫与四分卫。
So for me, my way of life, it's hard for me to believe in anybody in these things who isn't putting themselves on the line as a way of life.
所以对我来说，我的生活方式，我很难相信任何人在这些事情上不把自己当作一种生活方式。
So my own ocean training, and my own competitive training, and being immersed in the truth-telling nature of the competitive world, is something that I feel is really...
所以我自己的海洋训练，我自己的竞技训练，以及沉浸在竞争世界的真相中，我觉得真的......
We never have the truth nailed.
我们永远无法确定真相。
We're never liberated from our egoic dynamics.
我们永远无法从自我的动态中解放出来。
We're always susceptible to becoming static.
我们总是容易变得静止。
I've really come to feel that.
我真的感受到了这一点。
It's a big value system for me.
这对我来说是一个很大的价值体系。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the daily physical interactions with the ocean-
以及与海洋的日常身体互动——
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Oh
哦
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
with fear, with uncertainty, with just variables that you can't control.
带着恐惧，带着不确定性，带着你无法控制的变量。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And trying to identify, what are the variables I can control in this context, and work with those to try and tease out new learning.
并尝试确定在这种情况下我可以控制哪些变量，并与这些变量一起尝试梳理新的学习内容。
Running those algorithms every day seems absolutely essential.
每天运行这些算法似乎是绝对必要的。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
There's nothing like the ocean to expose any little micro inkling of the illusion of control, because you cannot control the ocean.
没有什么比海洋更能暴露出任何控制幻觉的微小迹象，因为你无法控制海洋。
You can't overcome the ocean.
你无法战胜海洋。
The ocean's going to kick your ass, so you need to blend with her, and receive her, and honor her.
海洋会狠狠地踢你的屁股，所以你需要与她融为一体，接受她，尊重她。
Yeah.
是的。
That's where I do my inner work out there.
那就是我进行内心锻炼的地方。
Okay.
好的。
Your study.
你的学习。
Go ahead and do it.
继续吧，去做吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, so it's not my study, but this paper that I sent you-
好吧，所以这不是我的研究，而是我发给你的这篇论文-
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I think is really interesting.
我觉得真的很有趣。
It's a paper published in the journal "Neuron," very fine journal, excellent paper.
这是一篇发表在《Neuron》杂志上的论文，非常好的杂志，优秀的论文。
We'll post a link to it.
我们将发布一个链接。
But, has many interesting features about, it's really about the study of surprise and the dopamine system, but they use, as the experimental context, people watching a game of basketball, and they observe that the reset on the interval timer of, is essentially set any time there's been a reversal of which team has the ball.
但是，它有很多有趣的特点，它实际上是关于惊喜和多巴胺系统的研究，但他们使用人们观看篮球比赛作为实验背景，他们观察到间隔计时器的重置基本上是在任何球队控球发生逆转时设置的。
So a drive down court by one team, then the other team, and if there's a rebound and then it switches direction, whatever, it might not switch direction.
因此，一支球队在球场上开车，然后是另一支球队，如果有篮板，然后它改变方向，无论如何，它可能不会改变方向。
Basketball provides the perfect dynamic to study this while there's some detection of brain activity going on.
篮球为研究这一点提供了完美的动力，同时也可以检测大脑活动的进行。
And one of, I think, the most interesting questions about this paper, and implications, are that just as we can set the aperture of our vision or the frame rate of how well we're clocking time, how finely we're clocking time or how coarsely we're clocking time, there's this big question which is kind of a philosophical question really, which is, how do we segment time in our life?
我认为，这篇论文最有趣的问题和含义之一是，正如我们可以设置我们的视野孔径或我们计时时间的帧率、计时时间的精细程度或计时时间的粗略程度一样，还有一个大问题，这实际上是一个哲学问题，即我们如何在生活中分割时间？
Earlier you mentioned that one of the major timestamps, if you will, is a bad event.
之前您提到过，如果您愿意的话，主要时间戳之一是一个坏事件。
Like a, "Oh, shit," like the things went completely differently than I would've preferred them to.
就像“哦，糟糕”，就像事情的发展与我所希望的完全不同。
It could be the death of another, it could be the death of a dream, it could be a setback, a reset, whatever.
它可能是另一个人的死亡，可能是一个梦想的死亡，可能是一次挫折，一次重置，等等。
That it marks time.
这标志着时间。
And we just had these fires.
我们刚刚发生了这些火灾。
LA will be before and after the fires of 2025.
洛杉矶将在 2025 年发生火灾之前和之后。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I remember, early in 2020, Kobe Bryant dying.
我记得 2020 年初，科比·布莱恩特去世了。
Right?
正确的？
So these things, I remember the Challenger explosion.
所以这些事情，我记得挑战者号爆炸。
Negative events occupy a certain place in our memory more easily than positive events, but no one will forget the birth of their first child, or hopefully their second child too, if they had a second child, or their wedding day, right?
负面事件比正面事件更容易在我们的记忆中占据某个位置，但没有人会忘记他们第一个孩子的出生，或者如果他们有第二个孩子，也希望他们的第二个孩子也能忘记，或者他们的婚礼，对吧？
These things segment time.
这些东西分割了时间。
You seem to be able to segment your life into a series of pursuits where you cut ties with the practice of something like chess, and you take what you learn and move it forward into what seems to be a very different lifestyle and way of being.
你似乎能够将你的生活分成一系列的追求，在这些追求中你与国际象棋之类的练习断绝联系，你将你所学到的东西推进到一种似乎非常不同的生活方式和存在方式中。
I think one of the major challenges for a lot of people, it seems, is how to thread the different elements of their life forward in a way that feels contiguous.
我认为对于很多人来说，主要挑战之一似乎是如何以一种连续的方式将他们生活中的不同元素串联起来。
And I think it's probably true that most people would prefer to not have major losses be necessary in order to segment their life in the most fulfilling way.
我认为，大多数人可能确实不愿意遭受重大损失，以便以最充实的方式分割他们的生活。
So how do you think about the segmentation of time?
那么您如何看待时间的分割呢？
And maybe we'll run this backward from at the scale of your lifetime.
也许我们会从你一生的尺度开始倒推。
We don't know how long you'll live, but hopefully a long time.
我们不知道你还能活多久，但希望能活很长一段时间。
Let's assume by way of standard genetics, somewhere in the neighborhood of between 90 and 110, if you take good care of yourself, which you seem to.
让我们通过标准遗传学来假设，如果你照顾好自己，你的年龄在 90 到 110 之间。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Sounds good.
听起来不错。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
And then let's compare that to How one structures a day, and that will allow us to bring us back to what you talked about before with this most important question, dynamic and focus and replenishing and dynamic between conscious and unconscious mind.
然后让我们将其与“如何构建一天”进行比较，这将使我们回到您之前谈到的最重要的问题，即意识和无意识之间的动态和焦点以及补充和动态。
So when you think about your life, you're 48 years old?
那么当你想想你的生活时，你已经48岁了？
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
I'm 49, so we're more or less the same point, looking backward anyway.
我已经 49 岁了，所以回顾过去，我们的观点或多或少是一致的。
Our lives are very different, but same age, roughly.
我们的生活截然不同，但年龄大致相同。
If you think you're going to live to be about 100, how are you thinking about your timeframe?
如果您认为自己能活到 100 岁左右，您会如何考虑自己的时间范围？
Are you thinking, "Okay, here's what I'm going to do for the next five years, 10.
你是否在想，“好吧，这就是我未来五年、十年要做的事情。
I'll allow whatever's happening in my life to dictate what I do next"?
我会让生活中发生的一切来决定我接下来要做什么”？
How are you running this analysis?
您如何进行此分析？
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
That's an awesome question.
这是一个很棒的问题。
We're basically taking all the macro and all the micro, and we're going to boil it down right here.
我们基本上考虑了所有宏观和微观因素，我们将在这里将其归结为一。
That's beautiful.
那好美丽。
That was a very expansive, elegant question.
这是一个非常广泛、优雅的问题。
I think the true answer-- It's interesting.
我认为真正的答案——很有趣。
I find this distinction between how, like when I think about a question like that, between how I actually relate to the question and how I might deconstruct how I actually relate the question to make it relatable.
我发现，当我思考这样的问题时，我实际上如何与这个问题联系起来，以及我如何解构我实际上如何联系这个问题以使其具有相关性之间存在区别。
But is the deconstructed version actually true to how I really relate to the question, right?
但解构的版本真的符合我与这个问题的真正联系吗？
Because accurate deconstruction is so nuanced and difficult, right?
因为准确的解构是如此细致和困难，对吧？
So how I experientially relate to that question is that I want to live my life with just relentless truth to myself, with authenticity, with love, with receptivity.
因此，我对这个问题的体验是，我想要以对自己无情的真理、真实、爱和接受性来生活。
I want to deepen my connection to what I'm doing, the arts I'm practicing in specifically, and tapping into my relationship to the universe through the artistic exploration.
我想加深与我正在做的事情、我正在练习的艺术的联系，并通过艺术探索来挖掘我与宇宙的关系。
I have not planned out the next 10, 20, 40, 50, 60 years.
我还没有规划未来10年、20年、40年、50年、60年。
I do have a long time horizon on how I think about plans and developments and projects I'm working on.
我确实对如何思考我正在从事的计划、开发和项目有很长的视野。
But it's like this fusion of the cultivation of full presence right now and playing the long game.
但这就像现在全神贯注的培养和长期游戏的融合。
But I'm not clear on where the long game is going.
但我不清楚长期的游戏将走向何方。
One of my dear friends, Boyd Varty.
我亲爱的朋友之一，博伊德·瓦尔蒂。
Do you know Boyd?
你认识博伊德吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know of him, and I'm a huge admirer of his work.
我认识他，并且非常欣赏他的作品。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Oh, you should have him on.
哦，你应该让他穿上。
He's awesome.
他太棒了。
Or you should go to South Africa and go lion tracking with him.
或者你应该去南非和他一起去追踪狮子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, sorry.
哦，抱歉。
I didn't mean to-
我不是故意的-
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah.
是的。
So he's an awesome-
所以他是一个很棒的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've been connected to him through Martha Beck-
我通过玛莎·贝克与他建立了联系-
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a previous guest on this podcast.
这个播客的前一位嘉宾。
They're good friends.
他们是好朋友。
They've spent-
他们已经花了——
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a lot of time in Londolozi together, and-
在隆多洛齐待了很多时间，而且——
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I'd love to get Boyd Varty on here.
我很想让博伊德·瓦尔蒂（Boyd Varty）加入这里。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
He's a beautiful soul.
他是一个美丽的灵魂。
He's a real brother.
他是一个真正的兄弟。
He's a kindred spirit.
他是志同道合的人。
Like every once in a while, you run into someone, you're like .
就像每隔一段时间，你就会遇到一个人，你就像……
In his book, "Lion Tracker's Guide to Life," he has this gorgeous quote, which is the words of a master tracker, Rynaess.
在他的书《狮子追踪者的生活指南》中，他引用了追踪大师瑞纳斯 (Rynaess) 的话。
"I have no idea where I'm going, but I know exactly how to get there." When I read those words, I was just like, they resonated very deeply in my soul.
“我不知道我要去哪里，但我确切地知道如何到达那里。”当我读到这些话时，我感觉它们在我的灵魂中产生了深深的共鸣。
I think those words are really good.
我觉得这些话说得真好。
I would take out the exactly.
我会准确地取出来。
I don't know anything exactly.
我什么都不知道。
So I don't know where I'm going, but I have a really beautiful sense that I'm tracking my way there.
所以我不知道我要去哪里，但我有一种非常美妙的感觉，我正在追踪那里的路。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You've got a process that seems to work very well, at least up until this point.
您的流程似乎运行良好，至少到目前为止是这样。
There's no reason to think it wouldn't work well, especially given that you said "not exactly," leaving that openness to changes in our biology, life events in and for people around us.
没有理由认为它不会起作用，特别是考虑到你说“不完全是”，让我们对我们的生物学变化、我们周围的人的生活事件和生活事件保持开放的态度。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
I have a big part of me, and it's a strength and a weakness.
我有我自己的很大一部分，它既是我的优点，也是我的缺点。
When I meet people, I think a lot about the entanglement of their brilliance and their eccentricity or their genius and their dysfunction.
当我遇到人时，我会思考很多关于他们的才华和他们的古怪，或者他们的天才和他们的功能失调的纠缠。
And when you're working with peak performers, you need to understand it, and its entanglement is often very, very complex, and people can think, "Oh, I can make this person more efficient by just removing this." But that will be connected to their genius, and you'll be cutting some of it away.
当你和表现最佳的人一起工作时，你需要理解它，它的纠缠往往非常非常复杂，人们可能会想，“哦，我只要去掉这个就可以让这个人更有效率。”但这将与他们的天才有关，你将削减其中的一些。
Right?
正确的？
And so when you're working with crazy brilliant-- And anyone who's really a virtuoso has some craziness built into what they're doing.
因此，当你与疯狂的才华横溢的人一起工作时，任何真正的艺术大师都会在他们所做的事情中融入一些疯狂。
And the entanglement of their brilliance and their dysfunction is so complex and nuanced, and one should be very careful to not do anything until one understands that entanglement with huge nuance.
他们的才华和他们的功能失调之间的纠缠是如此复杂和微妙，人们应该非常小心，在理解这种巨大细微差别的纠缠之前不要做任何事情。
And so the art of coaching people of that nature is like 99.9% listening, observing, not doing.
因此，指导这种性质的人的艺术就像 99.9% 的倾听、观察，而不是行动。
And one of the biggest mistakes that coaches make is doing too much because they need to show that they're valuable, right?
教练犯的最大错误之一就是做得太多，因为他们需要证明自己的价值，对吗？
And so I think a lot about, like we need to really understand the nature of that entanglement.
所以我想了很多，比如我们需要真正理解这种纠缠的本质。
And in me, that entanglement's complex.
而对我来说，这种纠葛是复杂的。
And I have a profound allergy to being untrue to myself.
我对不忠于自己有着强烈的过敏反应。
Why?
为什么？
Well, I think a big part of the reason is that period when I was 15, 16, 17, 18 years old, and I described where I got pulled into this externalized thing from the film and the public scrutiny when I wasn't ready for it, and being urged, and not having the maturity to resist it, because that's ultimately on me, is to take on chess outside of my self-expression.
嗯，我认为很大一部分原因是在我15、16、17、18岁的那段时期，我描述了当我还没有准备好时，我被卷入了电影和公众监督中的这种外化的东西，并被敦促，但没有足够的成熟度来抵制它，因为这最终对我来说，就是在我的自我表达之外接受国际象棋。
Like what would Karpov do here, not what would Josh do here, and I didn't have the understanding of learning Karpov through Kasparov, right?
就像卡尔波夫在这里做什么，而不是乔什在这里做什么，我没有通过卡斯帕罗夫学习卡尔波夫的理解，对吗？
And so my first love was taken away from me, or I allowed myself to have it taken away from me, which is how I'd actually frame it, and it was made static and stale and corrupted and externalized.
所以我的初恋被从我身边夺走了，或者说我允许自己把它从我身边夺走，这就是我实际上构建它的方式，它变得静态、陈旧、腐败和外化。
And there's so much existential heartbreak in me about the loss of that first love That I have the gift of being just fucking allergic to being untrue to myself.
失去初恋让我心碎不已，我有一种天赋，就是对自己的不真实过敏。
And so that's part of how I track through life is if I don't love someone, I don't work with them, no matter what the temptation is.
所以这就是我生活轨迹的一部分，如果我不爱某人，我就不会和他们一起工作，无论诱惑是什么。
If something feels untrue to me, I don't do it.
如果我觉得某件事不真实，我就不会做。
Now, sometimes we have to sit in the unknowing for a while, and something can be off for a while, right?
现在，有时我们必须在不知情的情况下坐一会儿，有些事情可能会暂时消失，对吗？
It's like there's peaks and valleys of everything, right?
好像一切事物都有高峰和低谷，对吗？
And we're so in the learning process, right, we can have long plateaus.
我们正处于学习过程中，对吧，我们可能会有很长的平台期。
Like when I stopped playing chess, I felt like I'd lost the love.
就像当我停止下棋时，我感觉我失去了爱。
But I sat for two years with the question to be clear on whether I was in a plateau of the love or if I'd lost the love.
但我花了两年的时间思考这个问题，想弄清楚我是否处于爱情的平台期，或者我是否已经失去了爱情。
And then I gained clarity.
然后我就明白了。
No, no, you've lost the love.
不，不，你已经失去了爱。
And then I was done.
然后我就完成了。
Never played again.
再也没有玩过。
Never played a chess game again.
再也没有下过棋。
So that factored in.
所以这也考虑在内。
It's so interesting how our most powerful guiding principles or voices in us can come from our deepest wounds, right?
有趣的是，我们内心最有力的指导原则或声音可以来自我们最深的伤口，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They absolutely do.
他们绝对这样做。
Because I think that this concept of energy is a complicated one, and there's no clear definition anyway.
因为我觉得能量这个概念很复杂，而且还没有一个明确的定义。
But when I think about energy, I don't think about caloric energy, I think of neural energy, and I think about certain neural circuits like that.
但当我想到能量时，我想到的不是热量能量，而是神经能量，我想到的是某些类似的神经回路。
I love the feeling of excitement and tension that then is funneled into a specific activity that then yields some new vista, repeat.
我喜欢兴奋和紧张的感觉，然后将其融入到特定的活动中，然后产生一些新的前景，重复。
It's just that's science, and that's learning.
这就是科学，这就是学习。
The day I realized that I'll never saturate all the knowledge that I could gather, organize, and disseminate through the podcast, I was like, "F yes." Like, that's just great because there's...
当我意识到我永远不会饱和我可以通过播客收集、组织和传播的所有知识时，我的反应是，“是的。”就像，那太好了，因为有......
But I realized also that we can saturate ourselves internally.
但我也意识到我们可以让自己内心饱和。
We can drive ourselves to the point of no replenishment.
我们可以把自己逼到没有补给的地步。
We can get so narrow focused.
我们的注意力可以变得如此狭窄。
That's why I think so much about aperture in time and space.
这就是为什么我对时间和空间的光圈思考如此之多。
We can get so narrow focused that we end up like a gopher that dug our way into a desert, and then we're like, or you're just far from your family or far from home, because you just dig, dig, dig, dig, dig.
我们的注意力可能会变得如此狭窄，以至于我们最终会像一只在沙漠中挖路的地鼠一样，然后我们就像，或者你只是远离你的家人或远离家乡，因为你只是挖，挖，挖，挖，挖。
So, I think, what is it?
那么，我想，这是什么？
Like eagle vision.
如同鹰的视觉。
I think that the diving birds are probably the ultimate in terms of having panoramic vision.
我认为潜水鸟可能是拥有全景视野的终极者。
Do you know this?
你知道这个吗？
They have a horizon-viewing density of cells, so they can view the horizon, and they have a pupil to view the fish so that they can dive and grab the fish despite the-
它们具有地平线观察细胞密度，因此它们可以观察地平线，并且它们有瞳孔来观察鱼，以便它们可以潜水并抓住鱼，尽管-
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Huh
呵呵
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
refraction of light under the water because the fish isn't actually where they see it.
光在水下的折射，因为鱼实际上并不在它们看到的地方。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Oh my God.
天哪。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So when people say eagle vision, versus what's it?
那么，当人们说鹰眼愿景时，它指的是什么呢？
Like predator vision up close or something.
就像近距离捕食者的视觉之类的。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Like cormorants, so they're like the diving birds.
就像鸬鹚一样，所以它们就像潜水鸟。
Those birds, yeah.
那些鸟，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
So they're flying, and they're tracking the horizon, and they're also tracking things right below them simultaneously.
所以它们在飞行，它们在追踪地平线，同时它们也在追踪它们正下方的物体。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That, to me, is the ultimate state to try and achieve-
对我来说，这就是尝试实现的终极状态——
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah, I love it
是的，我喜欢它
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in terms of space and time tracking.
在空间和时间跟踪方面。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
That's a beautiful metaphor.
这是一个美丽的比喻。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And they have to also adjust for, right, the refractory effect.
他们还必须针对耐火效应进行调整。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
And if you've tried archery from above water, underwater, which I used to paddle board while spearfishing above water with a bow.
如果你尝试过在水上、水下射箭，我曾经在水上用弓叉鱼时用桨板进行射箭。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
That refraction is hard-
那个折射很难——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
...
...
to calculate.
来计算。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Diving seabirds are the ones that really just-
潜水海鸟真的只是——
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
I'm going to do it
我要做
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
they're the ultimate.
他们是终极的。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
I'm going to do a study there.
我要去那里学习。
I want to learn about them.
我想了解他们。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, great.
好的，太好了。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
That's beautiful.
那很漂亮。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, I can send you some literature there.
是的，我可以给你寄一些文献。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
I'd love it.
我会喜欢的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The time unit of a day is what most people can manage in their minds.
一天的时间单位是大多数人头脑中能够管理的。
Maybe you could return to this cycle of conscious focus, stimulus response, and getting out of that.
也许你可以回到这个有意识的专注、刺激反应、然后摆脱的循环。
I love the example of going to take a piss because everyone does it.
我喜欢小便这个例子，因为每个人都会这样做。
I do think too many people do it holding a phone.
我确实认为太多人拿着手机这样做。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah.
是的。
Oh, my God.
我的天啊。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can't be good for a number of reasons.
由于多种原因，效果并不好。
Maybe just walk us through that.
也许只是引导我们完成这个过程。
So, let me ask a series of short questions.
那么，让我问一系列简短的问题。
So when I wake up in the morning, for instance, like many people, I don't feel immediately alert.
因此，当我早上醒来时，就像许多人一样，我不会立即感到警觉。
I don't feel like I could just dive into writing if writing is the most important thing I need to do that day, or I have some transition time.
如果写作是我当天需要做的最重要的事情，或者我有一些过渡时间，我不觉得我可以直接投入写作。
Do you think that people should embrace natural transition times on the timescale of a day, or that they should train themselves to bounce into effort?
您认为人们应该在一天的时间尺度上接受自然的过渡时间，还是应该训练自己迅速投入努力？
Like, go with the flow or force oneself through the door?
比如，随波逐流还是强行进门？
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Well, how I relate to that personally, I've spent a lot of time thinking about day architecture.
嗯，就我个人而言，我花了很多时间思考日常建筑。
I call it day architecture.
我称之为日间建筑。
And, I think there's some very systematic things we can do.
而且，我认为我们可以做一些非常系统的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
But I think, like anything, they should be individualized, right?
但我认为，就像任何事情一样，它们应该是个性化的，对吗？
I don't think that everyone should follow a certain model because we're all very different.
我不认为每个人都应该遵循某种模式，因为我们都很不同。
You know that old book that Tim actually produced the audiobook, "Daily Rituals?"
你知道蒂姆实际上制作了有声读物的那本老书《每日仪式》吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
One of the best things about "Daily Rituals" is how few patterns there are through them.
《每日仪式》最好的事情之一就是其中的模式很少。
It's just-
这只是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love that book
我喜欢那本书
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
...
...
hilarious and brilliant.
搞笑又精彩。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We'll put a link to it.
我们将放置一个链接。
Such a good book.
这么好的一本书。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
So good.
太好了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm so glad that Tim Ferriss, who we're referring to-
我很高兴蒂姆·费里斯，我们指的是——
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
collected all these habits of different writers, and some of them are so quirky and crazy, and some of them are downright dangerous.
收集了不同作家的所有这些习惯，其中有些是如此古怪和疯狂，有些则非常危险。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Well, he published the audiobook of it, right?
嗯，他出版了它的有声读物，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
And I think I told Tim, he'll remind me, I think I told Tim about that book many, many years ago, and then he did the audiobook, and it's so good.
我想我告诉蒂姆，他会提醒我，我想我很多很多年前就告诉蒂姆关于那本书的事，然后他制作了有声读物，非常棒。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's so good.
太好了。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
And it just follows the daily routine.
它只是遵循日常惯例。
It breaks down the daily routine.
它打破了日常生活。
It's like two to three to four-page chapters on 100 some brilliant artists and scientists and creators, and they're just so random how they live.
这就像两到三到四页的章节，讲述了 100 位杰出的艺术家、科学家和创造者，而他们的生活方式是如此随意。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, some are out partying all night.
哦，有些人整晚都在外面聚会。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Drugs, alcohol, caffeine.
毒品、酒精、咖啡因。
Others are super regimented and monk-like.
其他人则非常严格，像僧侣一样。
The range of- ...
范围-...
daily architectures is so vast.
日常建筑是如此巨大。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
So, I think we need to have that awareness and that sense of humor and humility about it, and we can get systematic and structured at the same time.
所以，我认为我们需要对此有这种意识、幽默感和谦逊感，并且我们可以同时变得系统化和结构化。
I think it's important to hold both of those.
我认为抓住这两者很重要。
What you just asked, I do believe that that beautiful period when we first wake up and that dream state is so powerful, and I think that almost all people immediately pick up their phone and start checking messages, which just shuts down one's awareness of what's been happening beneath the surface all night.
你刚才问的，我确实相信我们第一次醒来时的美好时光和梦境是如此强大，我认为几乎所有人都会立即拿起手机并开始查看消息，这只会让人们对整个晚上发生的事情失去意识。
So I think that that's a real lost opportunity.
所以我认为这是一个真正失去的机会。
I remember when I was 11 years old, my dad actually gave me this Hemingway essay on his creative process.
我记得当我 11 岁的时候，我父亲实际上给了我这篇关于他的创作过程的海明威文章。
Sometimes there's an insanely potent book that's put together.
有时，会出现一本非常强大的书。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
And two that come to mind are "Lessons of History," which is this short compilation of Will and Ariel Durant, two of the greatest historians who've published tens of thousands of pages.
我想到的两本是《历史的教训》，这是威尔和阿里尔·杜兰特的简短汇编，这两位最伟大的历史学家已经出版了数万页的著作。
This is a short compilation of a handful of thematic essays.
这是一些主题论文的简短汇编。
It's only like 100 pages of all their life's work boiled down to a few themes.
就像他们一生的 100 页作品都归结为几个主题。
It's unbelievably potent.
它的功效令人难以置信。
And "Hemingway on Writing" is another book of that nature, which takes all of Hemingway's, from his books, from his private letters, from his articles and essays and notebooks, everything he's written about the creative process, and boils it into this short book on his principles of creativity.
《海明威论写作》是另一本具有这种性质的书，它吸收了海明威的所有内容，从他的书，从他的私人信件，从他的文章、散文和笔记本，以及他所写的关于创作过程的一切，并将其浓缩成这本关于他的创作原则的小书。
Just unbelievable.
简直难以置信。
But before that book came out, I read this piece, this short thing he'd written about the creative process, which was essentially, he'd always leave a sentence unwritten.
但在那本书出版之前，我读了这篇文章，这是他写的关于创作过程的简短文章，本质上，他总是留下一句话不写。
He'd end his workday with a sentence half-written, so leaving with a sense of direction, and then he would let it go.
他会以写了一半的句子结束一天的工作，因此带着方向感离开，然后他就会放手。
He would go out drinking, he would do all the things that Hemingway did, and then he'd return to it first thing in the morning, and that unwritten sentence had become a paragraph and a page in his mind, and it would be a way to hit the ground running.
他会出去喝酒，他会做海明威所做的所有事情，然后他早上第一件事就会回到它，那句未写下来的句子在他的脑海中变成了一段和一页，这将是一种立即开始行动的方式。
And that's what really spurred me to start creating this process in my chess life, of always ending my chess study with something left, posing my unconscious a question, studying the complexity and then releasing it, and then tapping into it first thing in the morning pre-input, which later became my MIQ process.
这才是真正促使我开始在我的国际象棋生活中创建这个过程的原因，总是以剩下的东西结束我的国际象棋学习，向我的潜意识提出一个问题，研究复杂性然后释放它，然后在早上预输入时首先利用它，这后来成为我的 MIQ 过程。
And then I developed team-wide MIQ processes that the teams that I work with all have versions of the MIQ that they utilize as individuals, but then as teams, and it's an amazing way to develop a shared consciousness in a team, to have everybody be able to tap into the question that's top of mind for every member of their team.
然后我开发了团队范围的 MIQ 流程，与我合作的团队都有 MIQ 版本，他们作为个人使用，然后作为团队使用，这是在团队中发展共享意识的一种奇妙方式，让每个人都能够深入了解团队中每个成员最关心的问题。
Or for a leader to be able to be aware of what is the most important question for every one of my scientists or my analysts or anything.
或者让领导者能够意识到对我的每一位科学家或分析师或任何事物来说最重要的问题是什么。
It's a really powerful way to cultivate shared consciousness, and it becomes our game tape.
这是培养共享意识的一种非常有效的方式，它成为了我们的游戏磁带。
Because if we're tracking our MIQs, let's say I'm studying something for three weeks or for four weeks.
因为如果我们要追踪 MIQ，假设我正在学习某样东西三周或四个星期。
If I'm tracking the questions that I think are most critical for that thing and I'm deepening my analysis of it, what I think in day one will be very different from the MIQ in day 14.
如果我跟踪我认为对那件事最关键的问题，并加深对它的分析，那么我在第一天的想法将与第 14 天的 MIQ 有很大不同。
And then we can study the gap, and then we can study the patterns of the gaps.
然后我们可以研究差距，然后我们可以研究差距的模式。
And this is what I call MIQ gap analysis.
这就是我所说的 MIQ 差距分析。
So if I'm studying a chess position, if I play a chess game against you and it's incredibly complex, and I don't quite understand this position, and then I do a deep analysis of it, what I'll arrive at after 14 or 16 or 18 hours of study will be different from what I felt during the game.
所以如果我正在研究一个国际象棋的走法，如果我和你下一场国际象棋比赛，它非常复杂，而且我不太理解这个走法，然后我对其进行深入分析，我在学习14、16或18小时后得到的结果将与我在比赛中的感受不同。
Now, what's interesting is this is a cool thing about chess study.
现在，有趣的是，这是国际象棋研究中的一件很酷的事情。
If my understanding was here during the chess game, after a few hours, I might be really far away from that.
如果我的理解是在下棋的时候，那么几个小时之后，我可能就离这个还很远了。
But after I've completed the study, I'll usually be very similar but deeper.
但当我完成学习后，我通常会非常相似但更深入。
So it's often deeper, closer than where you were after a few hours of study, but it's like a deeper level in.
所以它通常比你经过几个小时的学习后的状态更深入、更接近，但它就像一个更深的层次。
But what's the gap between that and that, between where I was in the game, and what are the patterns in the gaps?
但是那个和那个之间、我在游戏中的位置之间的差距是什么，差距的模式是什么？
And then if you think about those patterns in the gaps through those lenses of the technical, the thematic, and the psychological.
然后，如果你通过技术、主题和心理的视角来思考间隙中的这些模式。
We deconstruct it in that way.
我们以这种方式解构它。
Then that becomes our game tape.
然后这就是我们的游戏磁带。
One of the hardest things for mental athletes is to actually have game tape the way basketball players do or foilers do or fighters do, where you can see the actual game tape.
对于智力运动员来说，最困难的事情之一就是像篮球运动员、挫败者或拳击手那样真正拥有比赛录像，在那里你可以看到实际的比赛录像。
We need to create our mental game tape.
我们需要创建我们的心理游戏磁带。
So this is a way that it both enhances the creative process and creates the game tape for the training process.
因此，这是一种既增强创意过程又为训练过程创建游戏磁带的方法。
And then studying the gap analysis we do reveals what we need to focus our deliberate practice on.
然后研究我们所做的差距分析揭示了我们需要将刻意练习的重点放在哪里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This difference between physical endeavors and cognitive endeavors I think is so key.
我认为体力活动和认知活动之间的区别非常关键。
Nowadays, most people are involved in cognitive endeavors, and it's basically like being in a glass house with windows everywhere.
如今，大多数人都参与了认知活动，这基本上就像是在一个到处都是窗户的玻璃房子里。
Social media, texting, windows, internet connection on the computer.
社交媒体、短信、Windows、计算机上的互联网连接。
There's just so many points of entry and where one can become distracted.
入口点太多，容易分散注意力。
Whereas if you paddle out to ocean, sure, you could bring your phone perhaps, but you're limited by the environment and the need for safety of the number of things that you can think about.
然而，如果您划船出海，当然，您也许可以带上手机，但您会受到环境和安全需要的限制，无法考虑的事情数量。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
It's funny.
很有趣。
I wore an Apple Watch training a little bit on the ocean.
我戴着 Apple Watch 在海上进行了一些训练。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
It was good for me because I wanted to align my intuition on speed with what actually it was showing, and it was good to calibrate myself.
这对我来说有好处，因为我想将我对速度的直觉与它实际显示的内容结合起来，并且校准自己也很好。
But man, I took it off.
但是伙计，我把它脱下来了。
It's so much better being on the ocean without technology.
在没有技术的情况下在海洋上生活要好得多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Being liberated from it.
从中解脱出来。
Tracking.
追踪。
But yeah.
但是是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm learning to turn stuff off while I work.
我正在学习在工作时关掉一些东西。
I have had to learn to just fight things back because when I started in science, I didn't have a smartphone or I didn't have any of that, and yet one really has to fight nowadays for their freedom from-
我必须学会反击，因为当我开始从事科学工作时，我没有智能手机，或者我没有任何智能手机，但现在人们确实必须为自己的自由而战——
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
these interruptions.
这些中断。
So it's something that people really have to cultivate.
所以这是人们真正必须培养的东西。
And so in terms of the structure of that day, do you pose a question for the day?
那么就当天的结构而言，您是否提出了当天的问题？
Like the most important question, let's say I'm working on a revision of this book that I delayed release on because I wanted to add a bunch of things to it.
就像最重要的问题一样，假设我正在对这本书进行修订，但我推迟了发布，因为我想向其中添加一些内容。
So would one say the most important question is, how do I finish this book today?
那么有人会说，最重要的问题是，我今天如何完成这本书？
Or I'm guessing it's more conceptual than that.
或者我猜它比这更概念化。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
It's a tool that one can utilize tactically or strategically.
它是一种可以在战术或战略上使用的工具。
So it can be if you're in creative flow, just leaving yourself with a sense of direction.
如果你处于创造性的状态，只给自己留下一个方向感，那么情况就可能是这样。
Or it can actually be zooming out and thinking about what is the highest order question
或者它实际上可以缩小并思考最高阶的问题是什么
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
...
...
that I'm grappling with, right?
我正在努力解决这个问题，对吧？
But I think it's like one wants to stretch for the que- if one is doing the latter, the higher order strategic thinking, it's like you can think of one is stretching for the question that matters most with the same kind of intellectual or cognitive intensity that one is experiencing, for example, pushing yourself from 168 to 176 in cardiovascular interval training.
但我认为，这就像一个人想要延伸这个问题——如果一个人正在做后者，即更高阶的战略思维，就像你可以认为一个人正在以与一个人正在经历的相同的智力或认知强度来延伸最重要的问题，例如，在心血管间歇训练中将自己从 168 推到 176。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Right?
对吗？
You're really-
你真是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
...
...
stretching mentally, so you need to be at your stretch point.
精神上的伸展，所以你需要处于伸展点。
Growth comes at the point of resistance, right?
增长是在阻力点出现的，对吗？
But intellectually, we're not used to really feeling when we're at our stretch point.
但从理智上来说，当我们处于紧张状态时，我们并不习惯真正的感受。
So we're thinking about a question, but that's a question.
所以我们正在思考一个问题，但这就是一个问题。
What's the higher order question?
更高阶的问题是什么？
What's the higher order question?
更高阶的问题是什么？
What's the question that really matters?
真正重要的问题是什么？
And one way to frame it is our mind, if we're good at something, slices like a knife through butter, through most things.
构建它的一种方式是我们的思想，如果我们擅长某件事，就像刀切黄油一样，切大多数事情。
But then there's a place we're stuck.
但有一个地方我们陷入了困境。
Those stuck points are the MIQs.
这些卡点就是 MIQ。
Those stuck points are like-
这些卡点就像-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Right?
对吗？
We don't need to wait.
我们不需要等待。
The mind will just get there, like, "Oh, but that's the thing." And then we explore there, like that stretch within that stuck point.
头脑就会到达那里，就像，“哦，但就是这样。”然后我们在那里探索，就像在那个卡点内的伸展一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
And that's usually where people, including myself, pivot away.
这通常是人们（包括我自己）转向的地方。
I'm thinking outside of the work domain now, like, "Ugh, I don't want to think about..." I notice that there's an infinite amount of distraction available nowadays if we want it in audiobooks and podcasts, and I think podcasts are wonderful, but they can be a source of distraction from the critical question we need to be asking, or they can be a source of answers for perhaps the critical questions we're asking.
我现在正在工作领域之外思考，比如，“呃，我不想考虑……”我注意到，如果我们想要有声读物和播客，现在有无限多的干扰，我认为播客很棒，但它们可能会分散我们需要提出的关键问题的注意力，或者它们可能成为我们正在提出的关键问题的答案的来源。
But there's so many of these opportunities to just look away from something that is like a emotional infection.
但有很多这样的机会，可以让我们把目光从情绪感染之类的事情上移开。
It's different than an infection in your skin that's just nagging because you can feel it there, and you want to get that thing out, right?
这与皮肤感染不同，皮肤感染只会让你烦恼，因为你可以感觉到它在那里，你想把它弄出来，对吗？
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Very primal instinct, like get that thing out, get the infection out.
非常原始的本能，比如把那个东西拿出来，把感染赶出去。
This is like an emotional infection that you can just kind of not see if you choose to turn away.
这就像一种情绪感染，如果你选择拒绝，你就看不到这种感染。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
If you turn away.
如果你转身走开。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But those are the things that really get you over time.
但随着时间的推移，这些才是真正让你受益匪浅的事情。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
That's why we do our cold water training.
这就是我们进行冷水训练的原因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
That's where we train at living on the other side of pain, of enjoying it.
这就是我们训练如何克服痛苦并享受痛苦的地方。
Like that place that itches, like, "Ah," so you bounce away from that, but that's where you need to sit.
就像那个发痒的地方，就像，“啊”，所以你从那里弹开，但这就是你需要坐的地方。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Right?
对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Right.
对。
But we can practice that thematically, like loving that discomfort, wanting it, hunting for it, like finding the place where we're stuck, and then letting it sit, and then not bouncing away from it, but just releasing it and then returning to it.
但我们可以在主题上进行练习，比如热爱那种不适，想要它，寻找它，比如找到我们被困住的地方，然后让它坐下来，然后不要逃避它，而只是释放它，然后回到它。
And we have insights, right?
我们有见解，对吗？
Because often in those moments, where we have our insights are when we wake up in the morning are in those stuck points.
因为通常在那些时刻，当我们早上醒来时，我们就处于那些困境中，我们才有洞察力。
And I find this very interesting.
我觉得这很有趣。
I'm sure you've done this.
我确信你已经做到了这一点。
I've done hundreds of diagnostics with people on my teams, like where do they have most of their creative breakthroughs?
我已经与我的团队成员进行了数百次诊断，比如他们在哪里获得了最多的创造性突破？
And so many of them are in the shower.
他们中的很多人都在洗澡。
It's really interesting, and I think a big part of that is that the full body somatic immersion moves them out of conscious thinking into like, because their mind is experiencing, and then the release of the conscious mind allows the unconscious to run, and then they tap into it.
这真的很有趣，我认为其中很大一部分是全身躯体沉浸将他们从有意识的思维中转移到了类似的状态，因为他们的头脑正在经历，然后有意识的释放让无意识运行，然后他们就进入其中。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
First thing in the morning is when I get my insights or understanding or when the truth hits me square in the face.
早上的第一件事是当我获得见解或理解时，或者当真相正面地击中我时。
There's no avoiding it.
这是无法避免的。
I wake up, I think about, like, "Okay, that's the thing I got to deal with." And I tend to write it down right away.
我醒来后想，“好吧，这就是我必须处理的事情。”我倾向于立即写下来。
Try not to write it down on my phone.
尽量不要把它写在我的手机上。
I think having a point of capture that doesn't offer any other distractions.
我认为有一个不会带来任何其他干扰的捕捉点。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Dude, I-
老兄，我——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's why I'm a big believer in pen and paper
这就是为什么我非常相信笔和纸
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
...
...
I 100% agree with you.
我100%同意你的观点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
And like what's so...
就像什么是这样...
First of all, I agree, first thing in the morning, that's the juice.
首先，我同意，早上第一件事就是喝果汁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
And the whole MIQ process is geared toward harnessing that, like tapping into that.
整个 MIQ 流程就是为了利用这一点，比如利用它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Right?
对吗？
Like feeding the mi- Because that just happened to me so many dozens of times where I would just have the insight in the morning, but then I realized I should be finding the areas of stuckness and feeding it to myself to have the insight about.
就像喂我一样——因为这种事在我身上发生过很多次，我早上就会有洞察力，但后来我意识到我应该找到卡住的地方，并将其喂给自己以获得洞察力。
So it's like directing that creative process.
所以这就像指导创作过程。
But then if we open up our phones, the moment we start to see emails without reading them or see anything, we're unconsciously solving for what's in the emails.
但是，如果我们打开手机，当我们开始看到电子邮件但没有阅读它们或看到任何内容时，我们就会无意识地解决电子邮件中的内容。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
It's all stimulus response.
这都是刺激反应。
You're going into stim- If people can start to think about being reflective versus in stimulus response, I think that's sort of like the widest binning of all this.
你将进入刺激——如果人们能够开始考虑反思与刺激反应，我认为这有点像所有这一切中最广泛的分类。
I have to say the shower, I've talked about this thing about why people have insights in the shower with my friend.
不得不说的是淋浴，我和朋友聊过这个关于为什么人们在淋浴时有感悟的事情。
I'd love to introduce you to him at some point.
我很乐意在某个时候向您介绍他。
We've been friends since we were seven years old.
我们从七岁起就是朋友了。
My friend, Dr. Eddie Chang, he's a neurosurgeon and the chair of neurosurgery at UCSF, and he studies speech and language, and he's taken people with locked-in syndrome and developed AI algorithms so that they can speak through a screen with their face moving in real time by decoding human speech for human speech cortex.
我的朋友 Eddie Chang 博士是一名神经外科医生，也是加州大学旧金山分校的神经外科主任，他研究言语和语言，他研究了患有闭锁综合症的人，并开发了人工智能算法，通过解码人类语音皮层的人类语音，他们可以在面部实时移动的情况下通过屏幕说话。
And a truly brilliant individual.
也是一个真正才华横溢的人。
He's been on this podcast.
他一直在这个播客上。
He'll come back again.
他会再回来的。
Ask him about the shower thing, because he used to work on neuroplasticity of the auditory system.
向他询问有关淋浴的事情，因为他曾经研究听觉系统的神经可塑性。
We think, we wonder if it's the kind of white noise of the shower as well.
我们想，我们想知道这是否也是淋浴时的那种白噪音。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because, Eddie's done beautiful work showing that it's the signal-to-noise in the auditory system that defines whether or not a certain pattern of speech or auditory cue gets remembered.
因为埃迪做了出色的工作，表明听觉系统中的信噪比决定了某种语音模式或听觉提示是否会被记住。
So when you have this in the background, let's just put this in the terms that we've been referring to this up until now, the thoughts that surface above that noise have a big sharp peak relative to the background.
因此，当你在背景中看到这个时，让我们用到目前为止我们一直提到的术语来说，噪音之上的想法相对于背景有一个很大的尖锐峰值。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So it's the signal-to-noise, whereas certainly the opposite would be when you're on your phone and you're scrolling through and you're looking at all the thoughts and feelings and stuff of other people.
所以这就是信噪比，而当你使用手机、滚动浏览、查看其他人的所有想法、感受和东西时，情况肯定相反。
So how do you capture your own thoughts and filter them through what's meaningful and what's not meaningful is, I think, a actually really important question to begin with.
因此，我认为，如何捕捉自己的想法并通过有意义和无意义的内容来过滤它们，这是一个实际上非常重要的问题。
And white noise background with very deprived visual stimulation, most showers aren't that interesting.
而且白噪音背景的视觉刺激非常匮乏，大多数淋浴都没有那么有趣。
It's white noise, blank walls, a few things that are familiar to you, so they basically disappear from your visual field.
这是白噪音，空白的墙壁，一些你熟悉的东西，所以它们基本上从你的视野中消失。
And the idea is that thoughts then that are constantly geysering up through your unconscious mind can be captured-
这个想法是，通过你的潜意识不断涌出的想法可以被捕捉到——
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because everything else is noise.
因为其他一切都是噪音。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Perhaps.
也许吧。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
That's interesting.
这很有趣。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is a hypothesis.
这是一个假设。
And, maybe I'll put you and Eddie together sometime and just be-
而且，也许有一天我会把你和艾迪放在一起，然后——
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah, I'd love that
是的，我很乐意
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
an observer.
观察员。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
That sounds-
这听起来——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
That's powerful.
太强大了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
So, that's how we learn language.
所以，这就是我们学习语言的方式。
It's the error signals against the background noise.
这是针对背景噪声的误差信号。
It's all, that's just how you fix stutter.
就这样，这就是解决口吃的方法。
You create background noise, you increase noise, which actually elevates signal in the auditory system, oddly.
你会产生背景噪音，你会增加噪音，这实际上会奇怪地提升听觉系统中的信号。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In any case, so you found that four and a half hours was the sweet spot of focused work.
无论如何，你发现四个半小时是专注工作的最佳时间。
But for some people, it might be an hour.
但对于某些人来说，这可能是一个小时。
They might need to train up that level of focus.
他们可能需要训练提高专注力。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Well, and if it's four and a half hours, the rest of the day is feeding into those being brilliant.
好吧，如果是四个半小时，那么这一天剩下的时间就可以用来发挥才华了。
So if it's four and a half hours of creative output time, then there are other periods where one can have inputs that feed it.
因此，如果创意输出时间是四个半小时，那么还有其他时间段可以提供输入。
I think that it's very good for people to have an awareness of what their peaks and valleys are of their energy throughout the day, and then align their peak creativity work with their peak energy periods.
我认为，人们能够意识到自己一天中精力的高峰和低谷是什么，然后将他们的创造力高峰期与精力高峰期保持一致，这是非常有好处的。
I think it's really important to not be in a constantly reactive state.
我认为不要一直处于被动反应状态非常重要。
One of the things I find fascinating is how people will have meetings scheduled everywhere, and then fit their thinking between meetings, and how liberating it is for them when they actually now block out their time for creative output time.
我觉得很有趣的一件事是，人们如何在各地安排会议，然后在会议之间调整他们的想法，以及当他们实际上腾出时间进行创意输出时，这对他们来说是多么解放。
That it might be color-coded in their calendar, and then have meetings fit around there.
它可能会在他们的日历中进行颜色编码，然后在那里安排会议。
So their day is driven by their self-expression as opposed to by a constant state of reactivity and just more and more and more and more.
因此，他们的一天是由自我表达驱动的，而不是由持续的反应状态驱动，而且越来越多。
I think harnessing the undulation of stress and recovery throughout the day is hugely important.
我认为利用一天中压力的波动和恢复非常重要。
I think having workouts throughout the day, even micro workouts during their day, meditation periods during the workday, everything being quality over quantity.
我认为全天进行锻炼，甚至在白天进行微量锻炼，在工作日进行冥想，一切都是质量重于数量。
We can get so much more done.
我们可以完成更多工作。
And if you think about it, you talk about elite-performing competitive teams.
如果你仔细想想，你就会谈论表现优秀的竞争团队。
If you saw how much video analysis and time the Boston Celtics coaching staff puts into what ends up being a 35-second clip that's shown to a player or the team, it's so much work to then the most potent thing.
如果您看到波士顿凯尔特人队教练组在最终向球员或球队展示的 35 秒剪辑中投入了多少视频分析和时间，那么这是最有效的事情。
Because the players are doing something so intense.
因为球员们正在做一些非常激烈的事情。
It's all about quality, not quantity.
这一切都与质量有关，而不是数量。
They're not training basketball 17 hours a day.
他们没有每天训练17个小时的篮球。
They could not possibly play then.
那时他们不可能玩。
They're training brilliantly for maybe an hour and a half a day.
他们每天大约一个半小时的训练非常出色。
Brilliantly, scientifically.
精彩、科学。
Or if they're playing for a two and a half to three-hour game.
或者如果他们要打两个半到三个小时的比赛。
Then what's the way to optimize for that?
那么有什么方法可以优化呢？
You don't stack six hours of training in before a three-hour game.
你不会在三小时的比赛之前进行六个小时的训练。
No. So much of it is body work and studying some tape, and then being primed in the right way to remember what you're looking at on tape, and then taking breaks and returning to it.
不。其中大部分是身体工作和研究一些磁带，然后以正确的方式记住你在磁带上看到的内容，然后休息一下并返回到它。
And then understanding exactly how much load is in your body and your mind, and having your sleep right and your nutrition right, and getting everything optimized.
然后准确地了解你的身体和思想有多少负荷，并保证你的睡眠和营养正确，并使一切都得到优化。
And then being a peak performer when it's on.
然后当它开启时成为最佳表现者。
But we don't have that discipline as mental beings very often, but we should in our creative process, in our relationships.
但作为精神存在，我们并不经常有这种纪律，但我们应该在我们的创作过程中，在我们的人际关系中。
In the art of being a mom or a dad or a husband or a wife or a friend.
在成为母亲、父亲、丈夫、妻子或朋友的艺术中。
Why wouldn't we be cultivating ourselves and being brilliant at that?
我们为什么不去修养自己并在这方面表现出色呢？
I really believe in quality as a way of life.
我坚信品质是一种生活方式。
That's another very important principle for me.
这对我来说是另一个非常重要的原则。
We're either practicing sloppiness or we're practicing quality.
我们要么练习马虎，要么练习质量。
If we do something shitty, then we're practicing shitty.
如果我们做了一些糟糕的事情，那么我们就是在练习糟糕的事情。
Just how we can harness the thematic interconnectedness on the positive side, we can also really harness it brilliantly on the negative side.
正如我们如何在积极的方面利用主题相互关联性一样，我们也可以在消极的方面真正出色地利用它。
Every time we practice being sloppiness, we're using thematic interconnectedness to be sloppy in everything.
每次我们练习马虎的时候，我们都是在利用主题的相互联系来马虎地对待一切。
I really believe that.
我真的相信这一点。
So quality as a way of life is a beautiful way to practice quality everywhere because it will manifest everywhere.
因此，质量作为一种生活方式是一种在任何地方实践质量的美好方式，因为它会随处体现。
Not in a way that's robotic or constrictive.
不是以机械化或限制性的方式。
No, in a way that's self-expressive and beautiful.
不，以一种自我表达和美丽的方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Living one's life like a work of art.
将自己的生活过得像一件艺术品。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yes.
是的。
Beautiful.
美丽的。
Amen.
阿门。
Let's do it.
我们开始做吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, clearly you are.
嗯，显然你是。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
I'm in the fight, man.
我正在战斗，伙计。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're in the fight, and you're setting an incredible example.
你参与了战斗，并且树立了令人难以置信的榜样。
And you have your entire life, which is remarkable and so deeply appreciated.
你拥有你的一生，这是非凡的，值得深切感激。
I have to say, and now I will reveal this, that when I started this podcast, I had a short list of people that would be pinch me guests.
我不得不说，现在我要透露这一点，当我开始这个播客时，我有一个简短的名单，上面列出了会成为我嘉宾的人。
Not because I want the guests to pinch me, but like, "Wow, I can't believe I'm sitting down with blank." And you were on that list.
不是因为我想让客人掐我，而是因为，“哇，我不敢相信我坐着时一片空白。”你也在那个名单上。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Wow.
哇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I've read "The Art of Learning." I watched and read everything I could about your work and I did see "The Search for Bobby Fischer" with the understanding that that's accurate about certain things and probably inaccurate about others.
我读过《学习的艺术》。我观看并阅读了关于你的作品的所有内容，我确实看到了《寻找鲍比·费舍尔》，我明白这对某些事情是准确的，而对其他事情可能是不准确的。
So if people choose to watch that, they should keep that in mind.
因此，如果人们选择观看，他们应该记住这一点。
It is Hollywood.
这是好莱坞。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
More importantly, we've had this chance to sit down and do this, and I have to say, I gained so much from your incredible precision, but also scope of observation in the world.
更重要的是，我们有机会坐下来这样做，我不得不说，我从你们令人难以置信的精确度以及对世界的观察范围中获益匪浅。
Because I'm not a basketball player, I don't know how to play chess, and yet I've learned so much from you and your writings and your teachings.
因为我不是篮球运动员，我不知道如何下棋，但我从你和你的著作和教导中学到了很多东西。
And just the chance to sit down here and to learn from you, I know I'm speaking on behalf of myself and literally millions of people.
正是有机会坐下来向你们学习，我知道我代表我自己以及数百万人发言。
I just want to say thank you for living your life like a work of art and for incorporating public education, which is what we're doing here, into this set of pursuits that you've been after, one after the other, but that are bound by this set of core themes.
我只想说，谢谢你们像一件艺术品一样过着自己的生活，感谢你们将公共教育（这就是我们在这里所做的）融入你们一直在追求的一系列追求中，但这些追求都受到这组核心主题的约束。
So without getting too abstract, I just want to say thank you so much for coming here, for educating us, for making us think.
因此，不要太抽象，我只想说非常感谢您来到这里，教育我们，让我们思考。
I know it's going to change people's thoughts and behavior for the better.
我知道这会让人们的想法和行为变得更好。
And the only question left is to say, would you please come back and talk to us again more?
剩下的唯一问题是，您能回来再和我们多聊聊吗？
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Absolutely, man.
绝对的，伙计。
Thank you for what you've just said.
谢谢你刚才所说的话。
It's an honor.
这是一种荣幸。
And I've learned so much from this jam.
我从这次果酱中学到了很多东西。
It feels like the beginning of a beautiful friendship.
这感觉就像一段美好友谊的开始。
So just the beginning.
所以这只是开始。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I feel the same way.
我也有同样的感觉。
I look forward to it.
我很期待。
Josh Waitzkin:
乔什·维茨金：
Thank you, man.
谢谢你，伙计。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Josh Waitzkin.
感谢您参加今天与 Josh Waitzkin 的讨论。
To learn more about Josh's work and to find a link to his book, "The Art of Learning," which by the way, I highly recommend, please see the show note captions.
要了解有关乔什作品的更多信息并找到他的书《学习的艺术》的链接（顺便说一句，我强烈推荐这本书），请参阅节目注释标题。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
Please also click follow for the podcast on both Spotify and Apple, and on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
还请点击关注 Spotify 和 Apple 上的播客，在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们留下五星级的评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast, or topics or guests that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问或对播客有意见，或者您希望我在 Huberman Lab 播客中考虑的主题或嘉宾，请将这些内容放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
And if you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab。
So that's Instagram, X, formerly known as Twitter, Facebook, Threads, and LinkedIn.
这就是 Instagram、X，以前称为 Twitter、Facebook、Threads 和 LinkedIn。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the content on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容不同。
Again, that's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.
再说一次，这就是所有社交媒体平台上的 Huberman Lab。
For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这本书是我花了五年多时间编写的，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验。
And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
它涵盖了从睡眠到运动再到压力控制的所有协议，以及与注意力和动机相关的协议，当然，我为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There you can find links to various vendors.
在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes everything from podcast summaries to what we call protocols in the form of brief one to three-page PDFs that cover things like how to optimize your sleep, how to regulate your dopamine.
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括从播客摘要到我们所说的协议（以简短的一到三页 PDF 形式）的所有内容，其中涵盖了如何优化睡眠、如何调节多巴胺等内容。
We also have protocols related to deliberate cold exposure, get a lot of questions about that, deliberate heat exposure, and on and on.
我们还有与故意冷暴露相关的协议，收到了很多关于此的问题，故意热暴露等等。
Again, all available at completely zero cost.
同样，所有这些都可以完全零成本获得。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to newsletter, and enter your email.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的菜单选项卡，向下滚动到时事通讯，然后输入您的电子邮件即可。
And I should mention that we do not share your email with anybody.
我应该指出的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Josh Waitzkin.
再次感谢您参加今天与 Josh Waitzkin 的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。