Jocko Willink: How to Become Resilient, Forge Your Identity & Lead Others
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
Today, my guest is Jocko Willink.
今天，我的嘉宾是乔科·威林克。
Jocko Willink is a retired Navy SEAL and author of numerous important books on leadership and team dynamics, and the host of the Jocko Podcast.
乔科·威林克 (Jocko Willink) 是一名退役海豹突击队队员，出版了大量有关领导力和团队动力的重要书籍，也是乔科播客的主持人。
During his 20-year career with the US Navy, Jocko served with SEAL Team 3 as commander of Task Unit Bruiser in Ramadi, Iraq, and elsewhere in the Middle East, as well as deployments in Asia and Europe.
在美国海军 20 年的职业生涯中，乔科在海豹突击队第 3 分队中担任布鲁斯特遣队指挥官，在拉马迪、伊拉克和中东其他地区以及亚洲和欧洲进行过部署。
After retiring from the Navy, Jocko used his experience and knowledge gleaned from his time in the SEAL teams as a way to develop tools that anybody can use to develop their leadership skills, both for leading themselves and for leading others.
从海军退役后，乔科利用他在海豹突击队中积累的经验和知识来开发工具，任何人都可以使用这些工具来发展自己的领导技能，无论是领导自己还是领导他人。
That took the form of several important books, the first of which was published in 2015 and is entitled "Extreme Ownership: How U.S. Navy SEALs Lead and Win".
这以几本重要书籍的形式出现，第一本于 2015 年出版，题为《极端所有权：美国海豹突击队如何领导并获胜》。
He has also authored several books for kids about leadership, personal development, and how to navigate various aspects of life.
他还为儿童撰写了几本关于领导力、个人发展以及如何驾驭生活各个方面的书籍。
I've read both "Extreme Ownership" and "The Way of the Warrior Kid," and I found them to be immensely useful in terms of actionable information and understanding of oneself and different kinds of relationships, both in and out of the workplace.
我读过《极端所有权》和《小战士之道》，我发现它们在可操作的信息和对自我的理解以及工作场所内外的不同类型的关系方面非常有用。
Typically, guests on the Huberman Lab podcast are scientists and/or clinicians.
通常，休伯曼实验室播客的嘉宾是科学家和/或临床医生。
It was some time ago that I was a guest on the Jocko Podcast, and during the course of our conversation on his podcast, we quickly realized that many of the science-based tools that my laboratory has focused on, and that I've used over the years and shared on the Huberman Lab podcast, had direct overlap and parallel with many of the tools that Jocko and other members of the SEAL teams had arrived at independently, that is, without knowledge of the underlying science.
不久前，我是乔科播客的嘉宾，在我们在他的播客上交谈的过程中，我们很快意识到，我的实验室重点关注的许多基于科学的工具，以及我多年来使用并在胡伯曼实验室播客上分享的许多工具，与乔科和海豹突击队其他成员独立获得的许多工具有直接重叠和平行，也就是说，在不了解基础科学的情况下。
And in fact, he had many more tools that he had incorporated during his years in the SEAL teams, as well as in business leadership, in family, and elsewhere in life, that I quickly realized it would be an enormously valuable conversation to have him on this podcast in order to share those tools with the general public.
事实上，他在海豹突击队、商业领导、家庭和生活的其他方面融入了更多的工具，我很快意识到，让他参加这个播客以便与公众分享这些工具将是一次非常有价值的对话。
During today's episode, we discuss numerous tools that Jocko has taught and used over the years in a number of different contexts, including tools for generating more physical energy and for generating more focus and cognitive energy, and for navigating sticking points.
在今天的节目中，我们讨论了乔科多年来在许多不同背景下教授和使用的许多工具，包括用于产生更多体能、产生更多注意力和认知能量以及解决症结的工具。
That is, how to deal with lack of motivation, how to deal with difficult relationships in the workplace and elsewhere, and perhaps most importantly, how to think about and navigate the self.
也就是说，如何应对缺乏动力的情况，如何处理工作场所和其他地方的困难关系，也许最重要的是，如何思考和驾驭自我。
In fact, we spend quite a bit of time talking about this notion of the self and one's self-identity, and how self-identity plays into our ability to engage in actions of specific types consistently over time, where it can hold us back, how to gain better perspective, and how to help others gain better perspective so that we can work better with them and them with us.
事实上，我们花了相当多的时间讨论自我和自我认同的概念，以及自我认同如何影响我们随着时间的推移持续从事特定类型行动的能力，它会在哪些方面阻碍我们，如何获得更好的视角，以及如何帮助他人获得更好的视角，以便我们可以更好地与他们合作，他们与我们合作。
We also go deep into the likely scientific mechanisms underlying why the tools that Jocko teaches and uses are so effective.
我们还深入探讨了乔科教授和使用的工具为何如此有效的可能科学机制。
In fact, one thing that you'll immediately notice is that Jocko was writing things down, and I was writing things down throughout the conversation, and that just reflects the fact that he's not just an immensely powerful teacher, he's also a practitioner and an avid learner.
事实上，你会立即注意到的一件事是，乔科在写下东西，而我在整个谈话过程中都在写下东西，这恰恰反映了这样一个事实：他不仅是一位非常强大的老师，他还是一位实践者和狂热的学习者。
He's always seeking knowledge.
他总是在寻求知识。
So we kick back and forth our ideas about what likely does and does not underlie different tools and techniques, focusing, of course, mostly on what works in the practical sense in the world.
因此，我们反复思考不同工具和技术的基础是什么，什么不是，当然，主要关注在世界上实际意义上有效的东西。
What I can assure you is that by the end of today's episode, thanks to Jocko's immense generosity and curiosity, you will come away with a large number of tools and much richer understanding of how to navigate and enhance mental health, physical health, and performance in all aspects of life.
我可以向您保证，在今天的节目结束时，由于乔科的巨大慷慨和好奇心，您将获得大量工具，并对如何引导和增强心理健康、身体健康和生活各个方面的表现有更丰富的理解。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Jocko Willink.
现在我与乔科·威林克进行讨论。
Jocko Willink, welcome.
乔科·威林克，欢迎。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Thanks for having me, man.
谢谢你有我，伙计。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm super excited and super happy to have you here.
我非常兴奋也非常高兴你能来到这里。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
I'm glad to be here.
我很高兴来到这里。
I know that you and I did five and a half hours on my podcast, so schedule is clear.
我知道你和我在播客上花了五个半小时，所以日程安排很明确。
Let's go.
我们走吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's go.
我们走吧。
And actually, and people will see the Jocko Go drinks, this is not some sort of promotional by me, but these are the energy drinks I drink.
事实上，人们会看到 Jocko Go 饮料，这不是我的某种促销，但这些是我喝的能量饮料。
So this could be called the Bring Your Own Go podcast.
所以这可以称为“Bring Your Own Go”播客。
It is the energy drink I drink.
这是我喝的能量饮料。
And no, I'm not told to promote that or paid to promote that.
不，我没有被告知要宣传这一点，也没有人付费来宣传这一点。
It's just the one that I drink.
这只是我喝的那一款。
So there you go.
所以就这样吧。
No pun intended.
没有双关语的意思。
I was just saying to our producer a moment ago that rarely do I sit down and do a podcast with somebody that's skilled in podcasting.
刚才我刚刚对我们的制作人说，我很少坐下来与擅长播客的人一起制作播客。
Lex Fridman would be the only person that I've had on this podcast, I believe, who's also a podcaster.
我相信莱克斯·弗里德曼（Lex Fridman）是我在这个播客上唯一的人，他也是一名播客。
Since you're a podcaster and many other things, I confess I'm a little bit intimidated.
由于您是播客和许多其他人，我承认我有点害怕。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Well, it's a weird thing to actually call a skill, because it's something that I just kind of started doing.
嗯，实际上称之为技能是一件很奇怪的事情，因为这是我刚刚开始做的事情。
It's something that you just kind of started doing.
这是你刚刚开始做的事情。
It's something that Lex just kind of started doing.
这是莱克斯刚刚开始做的事情。
And I never practiced it.
而且我从来没有实践过。
I didn't sit down before my first podcast and think about how I should deliver things.
在我的第一个播客之前，我没有坐下来思考我应该如何交付内容。
I just kind of did it.
我只是这么做了。
So maybe it's just luck more than skill.
所以也许这只是运气而不是技巧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, you and I actually go back further than that conversation that we had on your podcast.
好吧，你和我实际上可以追溯到我们在你的播客上进行的那次对话。
I think it might've been 2014, 2015, and you were on the "Tim Ferriss" podcast.
我想那可能是 2014 年、2015 年，你在“Tim Ferriss”播客上。
And at the time I was living with my girlfriend, we had moved from San Diego to the Bay Area.
当我和女朋友住在一起时，我们已经从圣地亚哥搬到了湾区。
We were living in this little tiny apartment in a basement in Oakland, trying to save up to buy a place or rent a place that was decent to live in.
我们住在奥克兰地下室的这套小公寓里，试图攒钱买一个地方或租一个合适的住处。
And we both knew a lot of team guys.
我们都认识很多团队成员。
She knew more team guys than I did in San Diego.
她在圣地亚哥认识的团队成员比我还多。
Had dated a few, just to be direct.
约会过几次，只是为了直接。
Great woman Those guys were cool to me, mostly.
伟大的女人那些家伙对我来说很酷，大部分。
And I remember when I saw the photo on the top card for Tim's podcast, it was your face.
我记得当我看到蒂姆播客顶卡上的照片时，那是你的脸。
And I said, "Do you know this guy from San Diego?" And she goes, "Nope, but if you had to draw a Navy SEAL, that's what you'd draw." So I think for a lot of people, you embody their notion of a number of different things, some of which you talk about, but some of which, when you open up a bit and really get specific about work in the military and work in daily life and what it is to be you, but really what it is to be a human being, some important contradictions also emerge.
我说：“你认识这个来自圣地亚哥的人吗？”她说：“不，但如果你必须画海豹突击队，你就会画这个。”所以我认为，对于很多人来说，你体现了他们对许多不同事物的看法，其中一些是你谈论的，但其中一些，当你稍微开放一点并真正具体了解军队工作和日常生活中的工作以及你是什么，但真正成为一个人是什么时，一些重要的矛盾也会出现。
Right?
正确的？
Obviously, discipline is a theme that people associate with you.
显然，纪律是人们与你联系在一起的一个主题。
Right?
正确的？
In my view and I think in the view of a lot of people, you embody discipline.
在我看来，在很多人看来，你体现了纪律。
So today, I definitely want to talk about routines, but also mindsets, but also things that you do and ways that you approach things that might, not contradict, but not be so obvious to people.
所以今天，我肯定想谈谈惯例，还有心态，还有你所做的事情以及你处理那些可能不矛盾但对人们来说不那么明显的事情的方式。
Might be a little bit counterintuitive.
可能有点违反直觉。
And in addition to that, you have a lot of different aspects to your life.
除此之外，你的生活还有很多不同的方面。
In addition to running businesses, you're a family man, you have children, and married a long time, and so you have a lot of knowledge from different domains of life.
除了经营生意之外，你还是一个顾家的男人，你有孩子，结婚也很长时间，所以你拥有很多生活不同领域的知识。
So with your permission, I'd like to dive into all of them over the next 26 hours.
因此，如果您允许，我想在接下来的 26 小时内深入研究所有这些内容。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Let's dive.
我们来潜水吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
I'm fascinated by this idea of sense of self.
我对这种自我意识的想法很着迷。
I feel like all of us can look back to a time early in life when we first had some experience.
我觉得我们所有人都可以回顾一下我们早年第一次经历过的时光。
Could be in art class, could be fishing, could be sport.
可以是艺术课，可以是钓鱼，可以是运动。
Doesn't really matter what the exact experience was, but where we first realized that there are really cool things in the world.
确切的体验是什么并不重要，重要的是我们第一次意识到世界上确实有很酷的东西。
Like something turned us on at the level of excitement or maybe scared us or something like that.
就像有什么东西让我们兴奋或者害怕或者类似的事情。
Do you have any recollection of such an event?
您还记得这样的事件吗？
Maybe not the first one, but do you ever remember hearing or seeing something as a young kid, and maybe you could tell us how young, and just thinking like, "Yeah, more of that, please."
也许不是第一个，但你是否记得小时候听过或看到过一些东西，也许你可以告诉我们有多年轻，然后就想，“是的，请多说一些。”
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
A lot of times when people ask questions along this line of when was there a moment, right?
很多时候，当人们问这样的问题时，什么时候有过这样的时刻，对吗？
When was there a moment that you realized discipline, or when was there a moment you realized leadership, or when was there a moment you realized detachment?
什么时候你意识到了纪律，什么时候你意识到了领导力，或者什么时候你意识到了超然？
Kind of like the question you're-- When was there a moment you realized, for lack of a better way of saying it, "I'm a person." Right?
有点像你的问题——你什么时候意识到，由于缺乏更好的表达方式，“我是一个人。”正确的？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
"I'm a person with my own thoughts, and I can make things happen." And for me, all those answers are usually fairly gradual.
“我是一个有自己想法的人，我可以让事情发生。”对我来说，所有这些答案通常都是相当渐进的。
There's like a little thing that indicates, and you get a clue, and then you move a little bit further down that road.
就像有一件小事表明，你得到了线索，然后你沿着这条路走得更远。
Then you get another clue, and then you move a little bit further down that road, and you get another clue.
然后你得到另一条线索，然后你沿着这条路再走一点，你就会得到另一条线索。
So that's what I would say, for me, life was like when I was a little kid.
所以这就是我想说的，对我来说，生活就像我小时候一样。
I was kind of slowly discovering that I was a person, I was a human.
我慢慢地发现我是一个人，我是一个人类。
I remember my mom took me shopping.
我记得我妈妈带我去买东西。
I was probably about 10 years old, and I needed to get pants for school.
我当时大概 10 岁左右，我需要穿裤子去上学。
And my mom took me shopping, and when I went into the store, there was a girl that was, I don't know what they're called in a store, a retail sales girl.
我妈妈带我去购物，当我走进商店时，有一个女孩，我不知道商店里叫什么，零售女孩。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
She was probably about 16.
她大概16岁左右。
And I started chatting her up, right?
我开始和她聊天，对吗？
And I kind of recognized it a little bit, but I sort of didn't, too, and I just was chatting to this girl, and I was making her laugh, and I was having a good time with the whole thing, and putting on the pants and spinning around, and she was laughing.
我有点认出了它，但我也没有认出，我只是在和这个女孩聊天，我让她笑，整个过程我玩得很开心，穿上裤子，旋转着，她笑了。
And I remember when we left the store with the pants and my mom was sort of talking to me about the fact that, "What were you trying to do to that girl?" And I was thinking to myself, "Well, I kind of liked that girl.
我记得当我们带着裤子离开商店时，我妈妈对我谈论这样一个事实：“你想对那个女孩做什么？”我心里想：“好吧，我有点喜欢那个女孩。
She was pretty." And I don't know why that popped into my head, but I just remember thinking-
她很漂亮。”我不知道为什么这个想法会突然出现在我的脑海中，但我只记得我在想——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
...
...
"Hey, man, there's a whole world out there."
“嘿，伙计，外面有一个完整的世界。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
"And let's go make it happen."
“让我们去实现它吧。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
It's a great story because I think it really speaks to this thing that you mentioned, which is that when we first start to realize we have a sense of self, it has something to do with cause and effect on the world.
这是一个很棒的故事，因为我认为它确实说明了你提到的这一点，那就是当我们第一次开始意识到我们有自我意识时，它与世界的因果关系有关。
Like we can have an impact in some way on things outside of us, outside of our home.
就像我们可以以某种方式对我们之外、家庭之外的事物产生影响。
Lately, I've been reading a lot of psychology, and I've been listening to some of your content, and I definitely want to talk to you about a study that you covered related to these.
最近，我读了很多心理学，也一直在听你的一些内容，我绝对想和你谈谈你所报道的与这些相关的研究。
It's a brutal experiment with these kids that either had stutter or didn't have stutter.
这是对这些有口吃或没有口吃的孩子的残酷实验。
I want to get into that a little bit later.
我想稍后再讨论这个问题。
But what we do and how we treat people and how we receive feedback and give feedback has a big impact.
但我们所做的事情、我们如何对待他人以及我们如何接收反馈和提供反馈都会产生很大的影响。
But I think some of that happens just in our own relationship to things in the world.
但我认为其中一些只发生在我们自己与世界上事物的关系中。
The old Hungarian psychologist, I'm learning, had this idea of two kinds of people.
据我所知，匈牙利老心理学家对两种人有这样的看法。
They literally thought there were two kinds of people.
他们确实认为有两种人。
There are generators and projectors.
有发电机和投影仪。
And generators are people that are just from a very young age, they realize they can impact other people positively, negatively, and they want to create things in the world.
创造者是那些从很小的时候就意识到自己可以对他人产生积极或消极影响的人，他们想在世界上创造一些东西。
They want to generate stuff, and they go, "Wow, I can actually build stuff and break stuff, and blow stuff up maybe, but also help things." And then there are these projectors that like to just kind of reflect on what they see.
他们想要生成东西，然后他们会说，“哇，我实际上可以建造东西并破坏东西，也许还可以炸毁东西，但也可以帮助东西。”还有一些投影仪喜欢反映他们所看到的内容。
And they made the really important point, I think, that it's not that generators are good and projectors are bad.
我认为，他们提出了非常重要的观点，即发电机并不好，投影仪也不好。
The world needs both.
世界两者都需要。
That they really work in a kind of symbiotic way.
他们确实以一种共生的方式发挥作用。
But your story captures the essence of what it is to be a generator, which is that by doing certain things, you can have an impact, and it feeds back to you, and it's likely that they receive something from it as well.
但你的故事抓住了成为发电机的本质，那就是通过做某些事情，你可以产生影响，它会反馈给你，他们很可能也从中得到一些东西。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah.
是的。
And where this all came to fruition as I now piece together as you're talking through this stuff, look, when I joined the military, you join the military and you get a blank slate.
当我现在在谈论这些东西时，这一切都实现了，看，当我参军时，你参军了，你得到了一张白纸。
So no one cares where you came from.
所以没有人关心你来自哪里。
No one cares what you did.
没有人关心你做了什么。
You were the captain of the football team, captain of the soccer team.
你是足球队的队长，足球队的队长。
No one cares.
没有人关心。
No one cares what your grades were.
没有人关心你的成绩如何。
No one cares what you got on the SATs or the...
没有人关心你在 SAT 考试或考试中取得了什么成绩...
No one cares about anything.
没有人关心任何事情。
You're a blank slate.
你是一张白纸。
And then with that blank slate It is, hey, if you do this thing, if you perform this task and you perform it well, you will get recognition.
然后用那块白板，嘿，如果你做这件事，如果你执行这项任务并且做得很好，你就会得到认可。
You will hopefully get more control over your own destiny, which is the ultimate in compensation for human beings.
你将有望更好地掌控自己的命运，这是对人类的终极补偿。
To have more control over your own destiny is the ultimate compensation.
能够更多地掌控自己的命运，就是最终的补偿。
You and I were talking before we hit record, you can have all the money in the world, but if you don't control what you're doing every day, or at least you don't control most of what you're doing, then it's not worth it.
你和我在创纪录之前就说过，你可以拥有世界上所有的钱，但如果你不能控制你每天所做的事情，或者至少你不能控制你所做的大部分事情，那么这是不值得的。
The reason people try and make money is so they can have more autonomy in their life.
人们尝试赚钱的原因是为了在生活中拥有更多的自主权。
And so in the military, it becomes very clear, and it became very clear to me very quickly that if I performed well, I actually got a lot more freedom with what I did.
因此，在军队中，这一点变得非常清楚，而且我很快就清楚地意识到，如果我表现出色，我实际上会在所做的事情上获得更多的自由。
Even in boot camp, if you pass an inspection in boot camp, you don't have to redo your locker, or you don't have to make your bed again because you did it right the first time.
即使在新兵训练营，如果你通过了新兵训练营的检查，你也不必重做你的储物柜，或者你不必再次整理你的床，因为你第一次就做对了。
And so you have an extra 15 minutes.
所以你还有额外的 15 分钟时间。
And so for me, really, that's when I started to realize, oh, what I'm doing right now is going to impact not only what's going to happen to me in the next hour, but in the next two years, three years, five years.
所以对我来说，真的，那时我开始意识到，哦，我现在所做的事情不仅会影响我在接下来的一个小时内会发生的事情，还会影响未来两年、三年、五年。
And I think that's the biggest miss that we have when we're growing up, and I know you had your challenges and tribulations as you were growing up because you didn't realize, oh, what I'm doing right now is going to affect where I'm going to be in the future.
我认为这是我们成长过程中最大的怀念，我知道你在成长过程中遇到过挑战和磨难，因为你没有意识到，哦，我现在所做的事情将会影响我将来的处境。
And it didn't happen until you were out of high school and you went to junior college, and you're like, "Oh, wait a second, I can actually put my life together in a positive way." When you're 14, you're thinking, "Hey, what am I going to do tomorrow?" That's basically future operations are what am I going to have for tomorrow?
直到你高中毕业，进入大专，这一切才发生，你会想，“哦，等一下，我实际上可以以积极的方式整合我的生活。”当你 14 岁时，你会想：“嘿，我明天要做什么？”这基本上就是未来的操作，我明天要做什么？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That would have been par the course for me at 14.
这对 14 岁的我来说是理所当然的。
I was like, where am I going to get the Slurpee?
我当时想，我要去哪里买思乐冰呢？
Which curbs am I going to hit skateboarding?
滑板时我会遇到哪些限制？
And where are we going to play video games tonight?
今晚我们去哪里玩电子游戏？
Or what girls are we going to hang out with?
或者我们要和哪些女孩一起出去玩？
That was kind of the mindset at 14.
这就是14岁时的心态。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah.
是的。
And then at some point you learned, and so did I, oh, the actions that I take now are either going to positively impact my future, or they're going to negatively impact my future.
然后在某个时刻你学到了，我也学到了，哦，我现在采取的行动要么会对我的未来产生积极的影响，要么会对我的未来产生负面影响。
And the more I focused on doing things that are going to positively impact my future, the better my life became.
我越专注于做那些对我的未来产生积极影响的事情，我的生活就变得越好。
And I think that's a very huge lesson to learn that I know I didn't figure out for quite some time.
我认为这是一个非常重要的教训，我知道我很长一段时间都没有弄清楚。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, the idea of investments and withdrawals, or understanding that early in life in terms of health behaviors and intellectual behaviors.
是的，投资和提款的想法，或者在生命早期从健康行为和智力行为方面理解这一点。
And your point about the military is a really interesting one.
你关于军队的观点非常有趣。
I never thought about the military that way, that there's this blank slate when you get in there.
我从来没有这样想过军队，当你进入那里时，那里是一张白纸。
And before we started, we were talking a little bit about the kinds of mindsets and people that the military attracts.
在我们开始之前，我们讨论了一些关于军队吸引的心态和人员的问题。
And, I'd love for you to elaborate on that again.
而且，我希望您能再次详细说明这一点。
You mentioned something interesting, this notion of garrison.
你提到了一些有趣的事情，就是驻军的概念。
Kind of a interesting word in its own right.
本身就是一个有趣的词。
What kind of people do you think the military attracts?
您认为军队吸引什么样的人？
And then within the military, do you start to see some kind of predictable bifurcations where certain people go down one track and other people go down another?
然后在军队内部，你是否开始看到某种可预测的分歧，某些人走一条路，而另一些人走另一条路？
I have a few friends from the SEAL teams, as we both know, and I've heard sometimes about the distinction between officers and enlisted guys, this kind of thing.
我有一些来自海豹突击队的朋友，我们都知道，我有时听说过军官和士兵之间的区别，诸如此类的事情。
But maybe the question I'm asking is more across the board for all of military and really for people listening, whether or not they are interested in military or not, for their own life.
但也许我要问的问题对于所有军人来说都是更全面的，而且对于那些倾听的人来说，无论他们是否对军事感兴趣，都是为了他们自己的生活。
I think there's an interesting lesson, this idea of who is attracted to the military.
我认为这是一个有趣的教训，即谁会被军队所吸引。
Is it people who want to instill order on themselves, or is it people who want to instill order on other people, or both?
是人们想要给自己灌输秩序，还是人们想要给别人灌输秩序，或者两者兼而有之？
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah.
是的。
There's a really good book, and I ended up doing about four podcasts on this book, which is called "The Psychology of Military Incompetence." And when I first saw that title-
有一本非常好的书，我最终针对这本书制作了大约四个播客，书名是“军事无能的心理学”。当我第一次看到这个标题时——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What an amazing title
多么令人惊奇的标题
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
...
...
I know.
我知道。
And when I first saw that title, I thought to myself, oh, this is some academic that's going to look at the military and bash it.
当我第一次看到这个标题时，我心想，哦，这是一些学者要研究军队并猛烈抨击它。
But I did a little research and it turned out that the guy that had written the book, and I can't think of his name right now, he was a guy that had served in World War II, was wounded.
但我做了一点研究，结果发现写这本书的人，我现在想不起他的名字，他是一个在第二次世界大战中服役的人，受伤了。
This guy understood what he was talking about.
这家伙明白他在说什么。
And it's really an obvious concept once you think about it, and the basic premise is this: the military, when you look at it from the outside, it's this orderly place.
一旦你思考一下，这确实是一个显而易见的概念，基本前提是：军队，当你从外部看时，它是一个有序的地方。
It's a place where everything has a place.
这是一个一切事物都有其位置的地方。
It's a place where if you have a certain rank on your shoulder, you will command respect and people have to listen to you.
在这个地方，如果你有一定的地位，你就会受到尊重，人们必须听你的。
That's what it looks like.
看起来就是这样。
So it's an attractive place for people that have an authoritarian mindset, for people that want to just, "Hey, don't question what I'm saying, just shut up and do what I tell you to do." There's people that love that.
因此，对于那些具有独裁心态的人来说，对于那些只想“嘿，不要质疑我所说的，闭嘴并按照我告诉你做的事情做”的人来说，这是一个有吸引力的地方。有人喜欢这样。
There's people that want to live like that.
有人想要那样的生活。
You've worked for them.
你为他们工作过。
I've worked for them.
我为他们工作过。
We've experienced those type of people throughout our lives.
我们一生都经历过这类人。
That authoritarian mindset that just want to bark orders and have people listen to them.
那种只想发号施令并让人们听从的独裁心态。
And so when those people are 14 years old or 16 years old or 18 years old, and they look at the military and they see a uniform, and they see people saluting, and they see orders being carried out, and they think, "That's where I'm going to go, and I can get the respect that I deserve." And the military certainly attracts people like that.
因此，当这些人 14 岁、16 岁或 18 岁的时候，他们看到军队，看到制服，看到人们敬礼，看到命令正在执行，他们会想，“那就是我要去的地方，我可以获得我应得的尊重。”军队确实吸引了这样的人。
And those people that have that highly disciplined and orderly mindset can do well inside the military, especially in garrison.
那些具有高度纪律性和秩序性思维的人可以在军队中表现出色，尤其是在驻军中。
And again, we were talking about this earlier, the word garrison, I don't think there's a civilian equivalent to this word, but it basically means the non-combat situation.
再说一次，我们之前讨论过这个，驻军这个词，我认为没有一个与这个词对应的民用词，但它基本上意味着非战斗情况。
So when you're out on the parade field, when you're going through schooling where there's no combat involved, when you're marching, those kind of things, we call that garrison.
因此，当你在阅兵场上时，当你在不涉及战斗的学校接受教育时，当你行进时，诸如此类的事情，我们称之为驻军。
It's in the rear.
它在后面。
It's not in combat.
这不是在战斗中。
And the people with an authoritarian mindset actually do pretty well in garrison situations.
具有独裁心态的人实际上在驻军情况下表现得很好。
Why?
为什么？
Because things are orderly, and you can predict what's going to happen, and you do get a certain issue of gear, and that gear is going to be delivered on time, and you're going to shoot this number of rounds down at the range, and everything is going to go according to plan.
因为事情是有秩序的，你可以预测会发生什么，你确实会遇到一定的装备问题，并且该装备将按时交付，你将在靶场射击这么多的子弹，一切都会按计划进行。
That's what garrison is.
这就是驻军。
And so those people join the military, they're attracted to that, and they end up doing well in peacetime.
因此，这些人加入了军队，他们被军队所吸引，最终在和平时期表现出色。
Now, unfortunately for them, combat is a lot different.
现在，不幸的是，对他们来说，战斗有很大不同。
Nothing goes the way it's supposed to go.
一切都没有按照它应该的方式进行。
The bullets don't get delivered on time.
子弹没有按时交付。
The enemy has a vote on the way things are going to unfold, and you end up in combat being in very chaotic situations.
敌人对事情的发展方式有投票权，而你最终会陷入非常混乱的战斗中。
So the type of person that thrives in combat has a more open mind, has a more flexible mind, is paying more attention to the input that they're receiving, as opposed to someone with an authoritarian mindset.
因此，与具有独裁心态的人相比，在战斗中茁壮成长的人具有更开放的思想，更灵活的思想，更关注他们收到的输入。
They don't listen to anybody else.
他们不听别人的。
They make up their own mind.
他们自己做决定。
They bark orders.
他们大声命令。
With someone that has a more open mindset, they're listening, they're taking input, they're evolving their plan.
对于心态更加开放的人来说，他们正在倾听，他们正在接受意见，他们正在改进他们的计划。
And those type of people excel in a combat situation.
这类人在战斗中表现出色。
Now, unfortunately, and this is sort of the stereotype, too, you take that dog of war and you put him back into a garrison environment, he doesn't do well, right?
现在，不幸的是，这也是一种刻板印象，你把那条战狗带回驻军环境，他表现不佳，对吧？
He's not showing up on time for the inspection.
他没有按时出现接受检查。
He didn't get his hair cut.
他没有剪头发。
He doesn't have his weapon clean the way it's supposed to be clean because he's got his weapon ready for combat, not ready for inspection.
他没有按照应有的方式清洁武器，因为他的武器已准备好战斗，而不是准备好接受检查。
And so you get this, there are these two different types of people.
所以你明白了，有两种不同类型的人。
And of course, with those two different types of people, there's degrees going one direction or the other.
当然，对于这两类不同类型的人来说，学位会朝着一个方向或另一个方向发展。
But what you hope for is someone that can play the game on the garrison side, and yet when it comes time to go into combat, they can also open their mind, be flexible, be creative.
但你希望的是一个既能在驻军一边玩游戏，又能在上战场的时候，又能开放思维、灵活变通、富有创意的人。
I mean, that's what you really want, is you want someone that is very good at solving problems.
我的意思是，这就是你真正想要的，你想要一个非常善于解决问题的人。
And to do that, you need to have a creative open mind to figure out how we're going to deal with something.
要做到这一点，你需要有创造性的开放思维来弄清楚我们将如何处理某些事情。
So I think that's a stereotype.
所以我认为这是一种刻板印象。
The stereotype is that everyone in the military is sort of robotic and falling into the hierarchy, and we bark orders, and people follow orders, and that's just not true.
人们的刻板印象是，军队中的每个人都是机器人，属于等级制度，我们大声发号施令，人们服从命令，但事实并非如此。
There is an element of truth to it, but it's not the whole truth.
它有一定的真实性，但并不是全部的事实。
And certainly, if you look at history, the people that excel in combat are the people that maybe have a little bit of a rebellious streak, people that are just more creative and more open-minded.
当然，如果你回顾历史，在战斗中表现出色的人可能有一点叛逆的倾向，只是更有创造力、更开放的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some of my friends from the SEAL teams will sometimes throw out stereotypes about the different divisions in the military.
我的一些海豹突击队朋友有时会抛出对军队不同部门的刻板印象。
Is there any truth to this idea that Air Force types are one way, and Marines are one way, and Navy is one way, Army is a certain way?
空军类型是一种方式，海军陆战队是一种方式，海军是一种方式，陆军是某种方式，这种想法是否正确？
Like sort of a general contour of personality, or is that just kind of inside ball joking around?
就像某种人格的总体轮廓，还是只是一种内部玩笑？
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
It's a little bit of both.
两者都有一点。
Certainly, the Marine Corps is steeped in tradition, and if you make a guess at what a Marine, if you meet or if you had to guess what a Marine's going to be like, you're probably going to be pretty close.
当然，海军陆战队有着悠久的传统，如果你猜测一下海军陆战队是什么样的，如果你遇到了或者如果你不得不猜测海军陆战队会是什么样子，那么你可能会非常接近。
Marines have an incredible program to indoctrinate their people into the culture of the Marine Corps, and the Marine Corps has an incredibly strong culture.
海军陆战队有一个令人难以置信的计划，向他们的人民灌输海军陆战队的文化，而海军陆战队拥有令人难以置信的强大文化。
It's a powerful culture.
这是一种强大的文化。
I love the Marine Corps.
我爱海军陆战队。
I've worked with the Marine Corps a ton, and they're outstanding.
我曾在海军陆战队工作过很多次，他们非常出色。
As a generality, certainly, you could make those assumptions about the Marines in general.
当然，作为一般性，您可以对一般的海军陆战队做出这些假设。
Now, does that mean that every Marine is the same?
现在，这是否意味着每个海军陆战队员都是一样的？
No, absolutely not.
不，绝对不是。
Same thing with the Army, same thing with the Air Force, same thing with the Navy.
陆军也是如此，空军也是如此，海军也是如此。
You've got these kind of stereotypes that exist for a reason.
这些刻板印象的存在是有原因的。
It's interesting, too, one of my friends named Ben Milligan wrote an incredible book called "By Water, Beneath the Walls," which I've given him a huge hassle about because it's the worst title of all time.
这也很有趣，我的一个名叫本·米利根的朋友写了一本令人难以置信的书，名叫《水边，墙下》，我给他带来了很大的麻烦，因为这是有史以来最糟糕的书名。
But it's certainly the best book written about the SEAL team's history and where the SEAL teams came from.
但这无疑是关于海豹突击队历史和海豹突击队起源的最好的书。
And it's interesting, it's something that I had heard from a SEAL officer that had given a speech years ago at his change of command, and what he said was, "Hey, listen." He was trying to emphasize why the SEAL teams were good.
有趣的是，这是我从一位海豹突击队军官那里听到的，他几年前在更换指挥时发表了演讲，他说的是，“嘿，听着。”他试图强调为什么海豹突击队很优秀。
And one of the things he said was, "In the Army," and he was talking historically, he goes, "Hey, in the Army, if you start to lose a battle, you can just retreat and run away.
他说的其中一件事是，“在军队中”，他在谈论历史，他说，“嘿，在军队中，如果你开始输掉一场战斗，你可以撤退并逃跑。
In the Navy, traditionally, we're fighting on board a ship, and if that ship, if we can't run away, we're fighting.
在海军中，传统上，我们是在船上作战，如果那艘船，如果我们无法逃跑，我们就在战斗。
If we lose, we die.
如果我们输了，我们就会死。
So SEALs can't quit." It was sort of this little over-the-top expression.
所以海豹突击队不能退出。”这有点有点夸张了。
But when you take that a little bit further, when you look at the history of the Navy, if we were in the Navy 150 years ago, you would have to go on deployment.
但如果你再进一步看一下海军的历史，如果 150 年前我们在海军，你就必须继续部署。
You would take your ship, and you would sail somewhere, and you wouldn't be able to talk to me anymore.
你会带着你的船，航行到某个地方，然后你就不能再和我说话了。
So you would have to understand what it is you were trying to accomplish and then just go out there and make it happen.
因此，您必须了解您想要实现的目标是什么，然后走出去并实现它。
That's decentralized command, and that's something that exists in the SEAL teams without question.
这就是分散指挥，毫无疑问海豹突击队也存在这种情况。
Very decentralized command.
指挥非常分散。
And that's one of the absolute strengths of the SEAL teams is you've got leaders at every level inside the organization that if they don't know exactly, if they're not told what to do, they're going to go, "Okay, I haven't been told what to do, but I'm going to go figure it out." And that's one of the strengths of the SEAL teams.
海豹突击队的绝对优势之一是，组织内部各个级别的领导者，如果他们不确切知道，如果没有被告知要做什么，他们就会说：“好吧，我没有被告知要做什么，但我会去弄清楚。”这是海豹突击队的优势之一。
We have more doctrine now, but when I came in the SEAL teams, there was no doctrine.
我们现在有了更多的条令，但当我加入海豹突击队时，还没有条令。
It was all word of mouth.
这全都是口口相传。
And so the Army and the Marine Corps, if you have to conduct an ambush, you can pull out a manual, and you can look up how to conduct an ambush, platoon ambush, how to conduct it, and it's all written very clear, and they're great documents.
所以陆军和海军陆战队，如果你必须进行伏击，你可以拿出一本手册，你可以查一下如何进行伏击，排伏击，如何进行，都写得很清楚，它们是很棒的文件。
It's the FM 7-8 Infantry Platoon and Squad, I think is the Army doctrine.
这是 FM 7-8 步兵排和班，我认为这是陆军条令。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I can see the little neurons in your hippocampus firing in sequence.
我可以看到你海马体中的小神经元按顺序放电。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's embedded in there forever.
它永远嵌入那里。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
And it's a great manual.
这是一本很棒的手册。
And you can pull that thing out, and you have a place to start from.
你可以把那个东西拿出来，然后你就有了一个起点。
In the SEAL teams, we didn't have that at all.
在海豹突击队中，我们根本没有这样的东西。
So you would hear from your platoon chief, "This is how you conduct an ambush." And he had heard it from his platoon chief, who heard it from his platoon chief, who heard it from his platoon chief, and that platoon chief was in Vietnam.
所以你会听到排长说：“这就是伏击的方式。”他从他的排长那里听到了这件事，排长从他的排长那里听到了这件事，排长从他的排长那里听到了这件事，而那个排长在越南。
So it's getting passed down, but you can make adjustments to it.
所以它会被传承下来，但你可以对其进行调整。
And you can alter the plan a little bit because, hey, the terrain is different, or hey, the night vision we now have.
你可以稍微改变一下计划，因为，嘿，地形不同了，或者嘿，我们现在有了夜视仪。
So there's changes that we can make because there's no doctrine So not having any doctrine in many ways is a strength.
所以我们可以做出一些改变，因为没有教义所以在很多方面没有任何教义是一种优势。
Also, it can be a weakness, because if you've got a new platoon commander that's never done an ambush before, and he has no idea what he's doing, and his platoon chief has been out of the loop for a long time, and he doesn't know what he's doing, there's no reference.
而且，这也可能是一个弱点，因为如果你有一个新的排长，以前从未伏击过，他不知道自己在做什么，而他的排长已经很长时间不知道自己在做什么，那么就没有参考资料。
So there's strengths and weaknesses, just like any characteristic.
因此，就像任何特征一样，也有优点和缺点。
Everybody's characteristic, you've got strength and you've got weaknesses, and your weaknesses can be strength, and your strength can be weaknesses.
每个人都有自己的特点，你有长处，也有短处，你的短处可以是长处，你的长处也可以是短处。
To get back to your original question, are there stereotypes inside of each of the military branches?
回到你原来的问题，各个军种内部是否存在刻板印象？
Sure.
当然。
But are there outliers in each of the military branches?
但各个军种是否都存在异常情况呢？
There are, absolutely, and that's why you can't judge a book by its cover.
绝对有，这就是为什么你不能以貌取人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
For people listening to this who are not in the military, maybe have some military lineage in their family or not, but who want to understand a little bit better about how structure and lack of structure can both support being effective in life, in relationships, in daily life, in fitness, in business, in school, I think those are the big domains.
对于那些不在军队服役的人来说，也许他们的家庭有或没有军事血统，但他们想更好地理解结构和缺乏结构如何支持在生活、人际关系、日常生活、健身、商业和学校中保持有效，我认为这些都是大领域。
In creative endeavors.
在创造性的努力中。
I think it would be useful for them to understand a little bit about how you, in particular, balance discipline and structure with, dare I say, lack of discipline and structure.
我认为，让他们了解一下你如何在纪律和结构与（我敢说）缺乏纪律和结构之间取得平衡是很有用的。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Well, you could actually just say the word freedom, right?
好吧，你实际上可以只说“自由”这个词，对吗？
Because that's what it turns into.
因为事情就变成这样了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Or maybe even play.
或者甚至可以玩。
I bring this up in part because I've seen some posts that you put up of you playing the guitar with friends or music.
我提出这个问题的部分原因是我看到了您发布的一些关于您与朋友或音乐一起弹吉他的帖子。
One of them was a tribute to someone who either was killed in combat or had passed away.
其中之一是向在战斗中阵亡或去世的人致敬。
So, these moments of connection between people sometimes are working together, but sometimes are in relaxation and play and these kinds of things.
因此，人与人之间的这些联系时刻有时是一起工作，但有时是在放松和玩耍之类的事情中。
And I think it was a really important post for people to see that, wow, Jocko Willink kicks back with a guitar, not trying to take over stages.
我认为这是一个非常重要的帖子，让人们看到，哇，乔科·威林克用吉他反击，而不是试图接管舞台。
Maybe you are, maybe you have a plan.
也许你是，也许你有一个计划。
If anyone could do it, you'd probably be the one.
如果有人能做到的话，你可能就是那个人。
But what is the balance for you in terms of structure and lack of structure?
但是，在结构和缺乏结构方面，你的平衡点是什么？
And I'm not going to ask for your daily routine.
我不会询问你的日常生活。
We know that you get up early, you train.
我们知道你早起，你训练。
But I do have some specific questions that I think would be helpful in putting some meat on the notions about you.
但我确实有一些具体问题，我认为这些问题有助于加深对您的看法。
And again, this isn't to pick into your life, but more to grab...
再说一次，这不是为了进入你的生活，而是为了抓住更多......
Well, it's to pick into your life.
好吧，这是为了选择你的生活。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, a question I asked you in the lobby, because it's one that, having seen your content for a long time and really benefited from it, I was curious, you get up early at about 4:30, you train every morning.
所以，我在大厅问你的一个问题，因为这个问题，我看了你的内容很长时间，并且确实从中受益，我很好奇，你在4:30左右起得很早，你每天早上都训练。
How long do you train for?
你训练多长时间？
And is there any global structure to that?
是否有任何全球结构？
And of course, everyone needs different programs, but is it like weight training one day, cardio training the next day?
当然，每个人都需要不同的计划，但这就像一天进行举重训练，第二天进行有氧运动吗？
Are you combining them?
你把它们结合起来吗？
Is it always an hour?
总是一个小时吗？
Is it always half an hour?
总是半小时吗？
I think people would benefit from getting a little bit more understanding of what that looks like for you, with the caveat that everyone has different needs, levels of background, et cetera.
我认为人们会从更多地了解自己的情况中受益，但需要注意的是，每个人都有不同的需求、背景水平等。
But I'm intensely curious about this, and I'm certain I'm not the only one.
但我对此非常好奇，而且我确信我不是唯一一个。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
So do you want to talk about weightlifting or rock and roll on the guitar?
那么你想谈谈举重还是吉他摇滚？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's talk about the most structured first part of your day, and then let's talk about the least structured part of your day, at least the part that you can share with the world.
让我们谈谈你一天中最有条理的部分，然后让我们谈谈你一天中最没有条理的部分，至少是你可以与世界分享的部分。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah.
是的。
Waking up early and I'm going to work out.
早早起床，我要去锻炼身体。
And depending on what's going on that day, if I have an early flight, I might work out for eight minutes.
根据当天的情况，如果我要赶早班飞机，我可能会锻炼八分钟。
I might go in and do 2,000 meters on the rower, get a sweat going, hard as I can, and then I'm done, because I got to go catch a flight.
我可能会划船跑 2000 米，尽我所能地出汗，然后我就完成了，因为我要去赶飞机。
So that could be happening.
所以这可能会发生。
Maybe I'm supposed to go surfing in the morning.
也许我应该早上去冲浪。
I wake up, the waves are terrible, and so now I've got nothing to do.
我醒来，海浪太可怕了，所以现在我无事可做。
I've planned out to be surfing for two or three hours, and now I'm not going to go surfing, so I'm going to go lift and I'm going to go play in the gym and do a bunch of stuff, and I'm going to spend two or three hours in there.
我本来计划冲浪两三个小时，但现在我不打算去冲浪，所以我要去举重，我要去健身房玩，做很多事情，我要在那里呆两三个小时。
I love doing that.
我喜欢这样做。
So the workout could be anywhere between, what did I just say, eight minutes and three hours?
那么锻炼时间可以是我刚才说的八分钟到三个小时之间的任何时间？
And it could be anything in between.
它可以是介于两者之间的任何东西。
I fully enjoy the physical aspect of working out.
我完全享受锻炼的身体方面。
So if I have more time to spend in the gym, I'll spend it.
所以如果我有更多的时间去健身房，我就会花掉。
I remember my dad saying at one point, "If I retired, I wouldn't know what to do." And I was thinking to myself, are you serious right now?
我记得我父亲有一次说过：“如果我退休了，我就不知道该怎么办了。”我心里想，你现在是认真的吗？
If I didn't have anything to do, I'd spend six hours a day in the gym, I'd spend four hours doing jujitsu.
如果我没有什么事可做，我会每天花六个小时在健身房，我会花四个小时练习柔术。
I could fill every day with just physical activity, things that I just like doing.
我可以每天只做体育活动，做我喜欢做的事情。
So wake up early, get a sweat going, and do I lift?
那么早起，出一身汗，然后举重吗？
Yes.
是的。
Do I do cardio?
我做有氧运动吗？
Yes.
是的。
Do I run?
我跑吗？
Yes.
是的。
Do I sprint?
我冲刺吗？
Yes.
是的。
Do I lift heavy weights?
我举重吗？
Yes.
是的。
Do I swing kettlebells?
我会挥动壶铃吗？
Yes.
是的。
I do everything and anything, and I enjoy all of it.
我做一切事情，并且享受这一切。
And I'm not really good at any of it.
而且我真的不擅长这些。
I'm not really good at any one aspect of physical activity.
我不太擅长身体活动的任何一方面。
There's people that are infinitely better at me in every aspect of, and I'm not just talking about, "Oh, this guy's a world-class lifter." No, there's a guy named Fred down at the gym that can deadlift more than me.
有些人在各个方面都比我强得多，我不仅仅是在谈论“哦，这家伙是世界级的举重运动员”。不，健身房里有一个叫弗雷德的人，他的硬拉能力比我强。
When I was at SEAL Team 2, there was a guy who was probably 5'7", and he looked kind of chubby, and he was older than me, and he could run faster than me, and he could bench more than me.
当我在海豹突击二队时，有一个人大概有5英尺7英寸，他看起来有点胖，而且他比我大，他跑得比我快，他可以比我打板凳。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Those guys are out there.
那些家伙就在那里。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
It was just so bothersome.
实在是太麻烦了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, they're out there.
是的，他们就在那里。
They got some engine in there related to something.
他们那里有一些与某些东西有关的引擎。
I do think there are genetic differences in terms of people's resilience and workout, but even just grip strength is highly subject to genetic influences, maximum grip strength.
我确实认为人们的适应力和锻炼方面存在遗传差异，但即使只是握力也很大程度上受到遗传影响，即最大握力。
But of course, there's a huge range in what people can develop.
但当然，人们可以发展的范围很大。
But I guarantee your grip strength is greater than mine.
但我保证你的握力比我的大。
People ask me this all the time, "Who would win in arm wrestling between you and Jocko?" I'm like, "Jocko." "Who would win in jujitsu?" "Jocko."
人们总是问我：“你和乔科扳手腕谁会赢？”我就像，“乔科”。 “柔术比赛谁会获胜？” “乔科。”
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
You know there's a lot of technique in arm wrestling.
你知道扳手腕有很多技巧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have to imagine they're putting their body behind it, they're putting their back in.
我必须想象他们把自己的身体放在后面，他们把自己的背放进去。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
It's not just that.
不仅如此。
There is legitimate technique in arm wrestling where-
扳手腕中有一种合法的技术，其中——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There's hope for me yet
我还有希望
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
...
...
Yeah.
是的。
No, if we could bring a female arm wrestler in here that knows how to arm wrestle, because I don't know how to arm wrestle either, and she would beat both of us.
不，如果我们能带一个会扳手腕的女扳手腕来的话，因为我也不会扳手腕，她会打败我们两个。
Because there's a lot more technique in arm wrestling than you know.
因为扳手腕的技术比你知道的要多得多。
than most people recognize.
比大多数人认识到的。
There's all these little games that are going on.
所有这些小游戏都在进行。
There's all this little arm position that you get.
你得到的所有这些小手臂位置。
So just like everything else, it's technique.
所以就像其他一切一样，它是技术。
There's a lot of technique in arm wrestling.
扳手腕有很多技巧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's good to know.
很高兴知道这一点。
I didn't know that about arm wrestling.
我不知道扳手腕。
I think we all start off with some genetic predispositions, both good and bad for different things, and then as far as we know, there's a huge range based through neuroplasticity and muscle adaptation, et cetera, in what we can obtain.
我认为我们都从一些遗传倾向开始，对不同的事物有好有坏，然后据我们所知，通过神经可塑性和肌肉适应等，我们可以获得的范围很大。
So I never want genetic predisposition to serve as a barrier.
所以我从来不希望遗传倾向成为障碍。
No one knows also what the upper limits of any of these things are.
没有人知道这些事情的上限是什么。
And some of the best examples we know from sport, and certainly from academia, are people who knew they were at a disadvantage and just worked 10 times harder than everybody else because they had an axe to grind with their genetic disadvantage.
我们从体育界，当然还有学术界知道的一些最好的例子，是那些知道自己处于劣势的人，只是比其他人更加努力地工作十倍，因为他们有一个斧头来磨削他们的遗传劣势。
Which is really cool at the face of it.
从表面上看这真的很酷。
So you get the training and do you track your training in a detailed way?
那么您接受了培训并详细跟踪您的培训吗？
Are you keeping track of lifts and-
你有跟踪电梯吗——
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
So I write down what I do.
所以我写下我所做的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
And I write down what I do every day.
我写下我每天所做的事情。
And that way I can go back and say, "What was I doing back then?" Because I might go through some phase where I'm trying to do more pull-ups, or I'm trying to deadlift more, or whatever the thing is, I'll go back in, because I'll get bored of deadlifting after a while, and let's face it, if you just want to be a good deadlifter, you're not going to be that fast, right?
这样我就可以回过头来说：“我当时在做什么？”因为我可能会经历某个阶段，我尝试做更多的引体向上，或者我尝试做更多的硬拉，或者不管是什么，我会回去，因为一段时间后我会厌倦硬拉，让我们面对现实吧，如果你只是想成为一名优秀的硬拉运动员，你就不会那么快，对吧？
You're going to be slow on long runs.
长跑的话你会跑得很慢。
So you don't want to go too deep into deadlifting, and you also don't want to be so good at long runs that you can't deadlift a good amount of weight.
所以你不想太深入地进行硬拉，也不想因为长距离跑太擅长而无法硬拉大量的重量。
So I kind of go through phases, and I'll get into something for a while, and then I'll get into something else.
所以我会经历一些阶段，我会先做一些事情一段时间，然后再做一些其他的事情。
So I do log down what I'm doing, so that way I can look back and say, "Oh, dang.
所以我会记录下我正在做的事情，这样我就可以回头说：“哦，天哪。
I'm not even close to as strong as I used to be, need to get back to that."
我什至没有以前那么坚强了，需要回到过去。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm fascinated by the concept of energy.
我对能量的概念很着迷。
I think it's one of the most interesting aspects in all of biology, all of psychology, and all of life.
我认为这是整个生物学、整个心理学和整个生命中最有趣的方面之一。
And when I say energy, I mean the distinction between being back on your heels, flat-footed, or forward center of mass.
当我说能量时，我指的是后跟、平足或重心前移之间的区别。
And I get the impression, and I think everyone gets the impression, that you're somebody with a lot of energy.
我的印象是，我想每个人都会有这样的印象：你是一个精力充沛的人。
And I wonder whether or not you wake up with a lot of energy and you feel like you have to burn it off with this physical activity and work and other demands in your life, or do you find that you wake up and your energy is kind of neutral and exercise and physical activity gives you energy?
我想知道你是否醒来时精力充沛，并且感觉必须通过这种体力活动、工作和生活中的其他需求来消耗掉它，或者你是否发现你醒来时你的能量是中性的，运动和体力活动给你能量？
Because I think this is one of the key things out there, I think that acts as a barrier for people doing more with their body because maybe they don't want to tire themselves out or maybe they don't feel like they have enough energy to begin with.
因为我认为这是关键的事情之一，我认为这成为人们更多地利用自己的身体做事的障碍，因为也许他们不想让自己疲惫不堪，或者也许他们觉得自己一开始就没有足够的能量。
It also feeds into this idea that, oh, some people just have a lot of energy, they're really physical, and other people aren't.
这也体现了这样的想法：哦，有些人只是有很多精力，他们真的很体力，而其他人则不然。
So let's just say on most days, do you wake up feeling like you want to burn off energy, build energy?
那么，在大多数日子里，您醒来时是否感觉自己想要消耗能量、积聚能量？
What does exercise mean to you?
运动对你来说意味着什么？
And then maybe we can talk about some of the underlying stuff going on there, because I think we both might find it interesting.
然后也许我们可以讨论那里发生的一些潜在的事情，因为我认为我们都可能会觉得它很有趣。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
I would say it's both, right?
我想说两者兼而有之，对吗？
There's no way I could sit here and say, "Oh, yeah, every day that alarm clock goes off and I'm like, 'Oh, yeah, let's rock and roll.'" Certainly that's not the case.
我不可能坐在这里说：“哦，是的，每天闹钟一响，我就会说，‘哦，是的，我们来摇滚吧。’”当然事实并非如此。
It's also certainly not the case that every day I'm like, "Oh, God, not again." No. I'd say most of the time the alarm clock goes off and I don't think a bunch.
当然，我也不会每天都说：“哦，上帝，不要再这样了。”不，我想说的是，大多数时候闹钟都会响，但我认为响的次数并不多。
Like when my alarm clock goes off, I don't think a bunch.
就像当我的闹钟响起时，我不会想太多。
I don't debate with myself.
我不与自己辩论。
I'm not negotiating.
我不是在谈判。
The thing goes off and I'm doing what I'm supposed to do, sort of robotic.
事情发生了，我正在做我应该做的事情，有点像机器人。
Now this much I can say, when you go and work out you're going to feel better.
现在我可以说的是，当你去锻炼时，你会感觉更好。
You will get energy from working out.
您将从锻炼中获得能量。
That is a guarantee.
这是一个保证。
If you go work out, you're going to feel better.
如果你去锻炼，你会感觉更好。
If you go break a sweat, you're going to feel better.
如果你出一身汗，你会感觉好一些。
You're going to get more energy from it.
你将从中获得更多的能量。
And look, you've got to go really, really hard to where now you feel more tired when you're done.
你看，你必须非常非常努力地去做，当你完成时，你会感到更累。
And even that, I mean, you've got to go psycho.
即便如此，我的意思是，你也得发疯。
I'll do that occasionally, but I don't do that on a daily basis.
我偶尔会这样做，但我不会每天都这样做。
At the end of a day, if I wake up, lift, run, surf, and then I do jujitsu in the afternoon, like at the end of that day, I'm tired, and I feel tired.
在一天结束时，如果我醒来，举重，跑步，冲浪，然后在下午做柔术，就像那天结束时一样，我很累，我感到很累。
But normal day, working out just makes you feel better.
但平常的一天，锻炼只会让你感觉更好。
It definitely gives me energy, I should say, because I guess I'm not everybody.
我应该说，它确实给了我能量，因为我想我不是每个人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I think it's a very important point because one of the things that we are learning from circadian biology, time of day effects and sunlight and all that stuff that we talk about on our podcast, that you've done intuitively, right?
我认为这是非常重要的一点，因为我们从昼夜节律生物学、一天中的时间效应和阳光以及我们在播客上谈论的所有内容中学到的东西之一，你已经凭直觉完成了，对吗？
This is what we kind of arrived to-
这就是我们到达的目的——
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah, it was kind of crazy
是的，这有点疯狂
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
the last time we had a conversation, is that so many of the things that science is telling us to do and that we emphasize on the podcast, this podcast you've been doing or are built into military schedules, and one of them is this notion of waking up early and getting physical early in the day.
上次我们谈话时，科学告诉我们要做的很多事情，以及我们在播客上强调的事情，你一直在做的播客或已纳入军事日程中，其中之一就是早起并早点锻炼身体的概念。
And I suppose if we were to just throw one blanket rule on the table to encompass the broadest number of themes, it's that once every 24 hours, we each and all get a big increase in this release of the hormone cortisol.
我想，如果我们要制定一条笼统的规则来涵盖最广泛的主题，那就是每 24 小时，我们每个人的皮质醇激素释放都会大幅增加。
Which everyone says, "Oh, cortisol, it's terrible.
每个人都说，“哦，皮质醇，太可怕了。
It's going to burn you out, adrenal burnout," all that stuff.
它会让你筋疲力尽，肾上腺倦怠，”所有这些东西。
But it's a non-negotiable peak, and you want it to arrive early in the day.
但这是一个不容妥协的高峰，你希望它能在当天早些时候到达。
And viewing sunlight, physical activity, caffeine, and in particular intense exercise all amplify that cortisol peak.
观看阳光、体力活动、咖啡因，尤其是剧烈运动都会放大皮质醇的峰值。
In fact, I think the numbers I'm seeing is just sunlight viewing gives you a 50% increase in that cortisol.
事实上，我认为我看到的数字只是观看阳光会使皮质醇增加 50%。
Exercise on top of that, another 50% to 75% increase.
在此基础上进行锻炼，还能再增加 50% 到 75%。
So this huge release in this hormone that everyone thinks is terrible but actually sets this huge wave in motion for the rest of the day, which gives you more energy, higher levels of immune function, more focus, et cetera, and does indeed, as you mentioned in your example of your daily life, sets a timer so that about 14 to 16 hours later you're sleepy.
因此，这种激素的大量释放，每个人都认为很可怕，但实际上会在一天中的剩余时间里产生巨大的波动，这会给你更多的能量，更高水平的免疫功能，更多的注意力，等等，而且确实，正如你在日常生活的例子中提到的，设置了一个计时器，这样大约 14 到 16 小时后你就会犯困。
Which is what you want 14 to 16 hours later, unless of course you're running vampire shifts in the military or you're on shift work, but most people aren't, of course.
这正是 14 到 16 小时后你想要的，当然，除非你在军队里进行吸血鬼轮班或者轮班工作，但当然，大多数人都不是。
So I think the idea that movement and exercise gives us energy I think is an important idea, and it's something that frankly I was hoping your answer would be that as opposed to that you wake up every day and you just want to just attack the world because you have so much energy getting out of bed, because frankly, I never feel that way.
所以我认为运动和锻炼给我们能量的想法我认为是一个重要的想法，坦率地说，我希望你的答案是，而不是你每天醒来，你只想攻击世界，因为你起床有这么多能量，因为坦率地说，我从来没有那样的感觉。
But I always feel better after I train.
但训练后我总是感觉好多了。
Always.
总是。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And of course, there are times when I crash in the early afternoon if I train really, really hard, but usually that's when I over-caffeinate to an outrageous degree, and then I don't nourish after, or I over-nourish.
当然，如果我训练得非常非常努力的话，有时候我会在下午早些时候摔倒，但通常是在我摄入过量咖啡因到令人无法忍受的程度的时候，然后我就不再补充营养，或者补充营养过多。
So this is the other thing, that eating, the whole rest and digesting, the digest word in there is there for a reason, which is that when we eat a really big meal, we actually need to slow down.
所以这是另一件事，吃，整个休息和消化，那里的消化这个词是有原因的，那就是当我们吃一顿非常大的饭时，我们实际上需要放慢速度。
So I hate to get into daily schedules at the level of nitpicking, and nutrition is about the most controversial topic on the internet.
所以我讨厌对日常日程进行挑剔，而营养是互联网上最具争议的话题。
But do you nourish after you train?
但是训练后你会补充营养吗？
And if you do, do you do it to the point where you're kind of like, "Okay, I'm mostly full," or, "I'm full." Are you trying to really nourish yourself, or do you find that eating slows you down?
如果你这样做了，你会这样做到你有点像，“好吧，我已经吃饱了”，或者“我已经吃饱了”。您是否想真正滋养自己，或者您是否发现饮食会减慢您的速度？
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
I find that eating slows me down.
我发现吃东西会让我放慢速度。
And I would say, again, it's weird how some of this stuff is like...
我会再说一遍，有些东西看起来很奇怪......
The main reason I got in the habit of waking up early and working out is because if you do it before anyone else is awake, then they can't bother you, and you can get stuff done.
我养成早起锻炼习惯的主要原因是，如果你在其他人醒来之前这样做，那么他们就不会打扰你，你也可以完成工作。
You go to the SEAL team and you get there before anyone else is there, no one can say, "Hey, can you help us with this?
你去海豹突击队，你先于其他人到达那里，没有人可以说，“嘿，你能帮助我们吗？
Hey." No one sent you any emails.
嘿。”没有人给您发送任何电子邮件。
You get that time, you get it done, and it's yours.
你得到了那个时间，你完成了它，它就是你的了。
I remember when you were on my podcast and I don't wear sunglasses when I run in the morning because I sweat and it fills my sunglasses.
我记得当你在我的播客上时，我早上跑步时不戴太阳镜，因为我出汗，它填满了我的太阳镜。
It's not because I want to let the UV light into my eyes.
这并不是因为我想让紫外线进入我的眼睛。
That's not why.
这不是原因。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Cortisol boost.
皮质醇增强。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Right.
对。
It's not for the cortisol.
这不是为了皮质醇。
I didn't know that.
我不知道。
It's cool that I know it now, but I just did it because I don't like sweat in my sunglasses, can't see, so I just run without them or put a hat on.
我现在知道了，这很酷，但我这么做是因为我不喜欢墨镜里出汗，看不清东西，所以我只是不戴墨镜跑步或者戴上帽子。
As far as eating, I don't like to do physically active things with food in my stomach.
至于饮食，我不喜欢在胃里有食物的情况下做体力活动。
That's just the way it is.
事情就是这样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, me either.
是的，我也是。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
And so-
所以——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yep
是的
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
...
...
I don't want to.
我不想。
And what really keeps that in line for me is I'm doing jujitsu in the afternoon, and so if I'm eating a big lunch, by the time the afternoon rolls around, I'm kind of, "Ugh, I got food in my gut," and I just don't like that feeling.
真正让我保持这一点的是我下午会做柔术，所以如果我吃一顿丰盛的午餐，到下午到来时，我会有点，“呃，我肚子里有食物”，我只是不喜欢这种感觉。
So no, I don't eat a big meal until I'm kind of done with the physical stuff for the day, which is usually at night, 6:00, 7:00 at night.
所以不，我不会吃大餐，直到我完成一天的体力活动，通常是在晚上，晚上 6:00、7:00。
Which I guess there's some bad things about that.
我想这有一些不好的事情。
I eat too late.
我吃得太晚了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, the data say if you're...
嗯，数据表明，如果你...
Yeah, we could go down a rabbit hole with this, and then someone's going to pull up some little clinical study and then another one that counters that.
是的，我们可以对此进行深入研究，然后有人会进行一些小型临床研究，然后再进行另一项反驳。
I think the data essentially say that having a regular meal schedule that allows you to sleep well at night, whatever that means for you, and that allows you to be active and focused when you need to be active and focused, that's the ideal schedule.
我认为数据本质上表明，有规律的膳食安排可以让你在晚上睡个好觉，无论这对你意味着什么，并且可以让你在需要活跃和集中注意力时保持活跃和集中，这是理想的时间表。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
When I'm working with clients, so I have a leadership consulting company, Echelon Front.
当我与客户合作时，我有一家领导力咨询公司，Echelon Front。
When I'm going to work with a client, I'm not eating.
当我要和客户一起工作时，我不会吃饭。
Because they're going to be asking me questions, we're going to be diving into what's happening inside their business.
因为他们会问我问题，所以我们将深入了解他们业务内部发生的事情。
There's a lot of stuff going on.
有很多事情正在发生。
It's a lot of cognitive work.
这是大量的认知工作。
So I'm not eating before that.
所以在那之前我不吃东西。
Podcast?
播客？
I'm not eating before a podcast.
我不会在播客之前吃东西。
Before I'm recording a podcast, I'm not eating, because I don't want to have a bunch of food in my stomach.
在录制播客之前，我不吃东西，因为我不想肚子里有一堆食物。
You get a certain level of mental clarity when you haven't eaten a bunch of food.
当你没有吃很多食物时，你的头脑会得到一定程度的清醒。
So going out on missions, I never would eat before I go out on a mission.
所以出去传教，我出去传教之前从来不吃东西。
I would eat when I come home.
当我回家时我会吃饭。
You get home 4:00 in the morning, 3:00 in the morning from doing an operation, cool, then I'll eat.
你早上4:00回家，凌晨3:00做完手术，凉了，然后我就吃饭了。
Because then I'm going to do a debrief for 15 minutes, clean weapons, and then eat a big meal, go to sleep.
因为接下来我要做 15 分钟的汇报，清理武器，然后吃一顿大餐，睡觉。
Cool.
凉爽的。
Yeah, I don't want to have food in my stomach when I've got to perform or execute anything.
是的，当我必须执行或执行任何事情时，我不想胃里有食物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
So again, I think that's just kind of a fluke that I ended up living like that, but that's kind of how I live.
再说一次，我认为我最终这样生活只是一种侥幸，但这就是我的生活方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a fortunate fluke for all of us.
这对我们所有人来说都是一种幸运的侥幸。
Because so much of what you embody and what you do, I think, centers around this idea of discipline, of course, but also energy.
因为我认为，你所体现的一切和你所做的很多事情都围绕着纪律的理念，当然，还有能量。
It's the intuitive sense I get about why people are so drawn to your messaging and what you do and how you do it.
这是我的直觉，让我明白为什么人们如此被你的信息、你所做的事情以及你的做事方式所吸引。
Energy, we know of course, is caloric energy, and I think that's what most people default to.
我们当然知道，能量是热量能量，我认为这是大多数人默认的。
They go, "Oh, that, how many calories are energy and how many calories are in that?" And you need calories to fuel things.
他们会说，“哦，那个，有多少卡路里是能量，其中有多少卡路里？”你需要卡路里来补充能量。
But the energy that you're describing, I think, is the one that, well, it really maps to Eastern traditions more directly, the whole yin and yang thing.
但我认为，你所描述的能量确实更直接地映射到东方传统，即整个阴阳事物。
Yin and yang, I always get that wrong.
阴阳，我总是弄错。
Which is the notion of neural energy.
这就是神经能量的概念。
And so there's a particular cluster of chemicals in us, it has a fancy name, called the catecholamines, but that's dopamine, epinephrine, which is adrenaline, and norepinephrine.
我们体内有一组特殊的化学物质，它有一个奇特的名字，叫做儿茶酚胺，但那就是多巴胺、肾上腺素（即肾上腺素）和去甲肾上腺素。
And then you've got cortisol.
然后你就有了皮质醇。
And those four hang out together and basically give us enough energy to run our brain and body for 50 days.
这四个人一起出去玩，基本上为我们提供了足够的能量来让我们的大脑和身体运转 50 天。
50 days.
50 天。
So the idea that you have to eat before you train, sure, for some people that might work better than others.
因此，在训练之前必须吃饭的想法对于某些人来说可能会比其他人效果更好。
But I think what people don't realize is that any time we're taking in caloric energy, it takes neural energy in order to digest that and put it into storage.
但我认为人们没有意识到，每当我们摄入热量时，都需要神经能量来消化它并将其储存起来。
And so the way you describe your day of, yeah, I also don't eat before I train.
所以你描述你的一天的方式，是的，我在训练前也不吃东西。
I like to hydrate and caffeinate.
我喜欢补充水分和咖啡因。
I have been drinking these before I train.
我在训练前就喝过这些。
I have to limit myself to two before because otherwise-
我必须先把自己限制在两个，否则——
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
I don't know
我不知道
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I'm already quaking a little bit-
我已经有点颤抖了-
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
I know
我知道
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
at the second one.
在第二个。
But I have a pretty high caffeine tolerance.
但我对咖啡因的耐受性相当高。
So I like to train fasted also, and then I find it gives me energy.
所以我也喜欢禁食训练，然后我发现它给了我能量。
But then the moment that I eat a meal that's a little too large, all of a sudden I'm out of energy, and what's the deal?
但是当我吃得有点多的时候，我突然没力气了，这是怎么回事？
Calories are energy, right?
卡路里就是能量，对吗？
You're supposed to have energy in order to think and move.
你应该有能量来思考和行动。
And I think a lot of the world has this backwards.
我认为世界上很多地方都存在这种倒退。
And this isn't a push for intermittent fasting or any particular style of eating really.
这并不是提倡间歇性禁食或任何特定的饮食方式。
I don't care if people are carnivore or vegan.
我不在乎人们是肉食动物还是素食主义者。
Doesn't matter to me.
对我来说没关系。
Whatever works.
不管怎样有效。
I happen to be an omnivore.
我碰巧是杂食动物。
But I think once people understand that energy to do things is neural, and yet of course it relies on having glycogen and all this stuff around, but neural energy is what it's really about, then your schedule and the way you function and the way you describe your schedule really makes a ton of sense.
但我认为，一旦人们明白做事的能量是神经性的，当然它依赖于糖原和所有这些东西，但神经能量才是它真正的含义，那么你的日程安排、你的运作方式以及你描述日程安排的方式就真的很有意义。
So you described getting up and lifting, running, surfing, and jujitsu in the same day.
所以你描述了在同一天起床、举重、跑步、冲浪和柔术。
So on a day like that, you're hydrating, correct?
所以在这样的一天，你会补充水分，对吗？
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Oh yeah, definitely.
哦，是的，当然。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Because that's vital.
因为这至关重要。
And I know in the SEAL teams, there's a lot of discussion about hydration as important.
我知道在海豹突击队中，有很多关于补水同样重要的讨论。
Even though you guys, I know, are supposed to be able to eat sand and survive on sunlight and dirt and drink your own blood.
即使你们，我知道，应该能够吃沙子，靠阳光和泥土生存，喝自己的血。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Not me.
不是我。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hydration's taken seriously, right?
补水很重要，对吧？
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah, and different people need different amount of hydration.
是的，不同的人需要不同量的水分。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
And I unfortunately was one of them.
不幸的是我就是其中之一。
I always needed to bring a lot of water in the field, which sucked because water's heavy.
我总是需要带很多水到田里，因为水很重，所以很糟糕。
And I have friends, one of my friends, Tony, BTF Tony, he'd go in the field with a can of Copenhagen and coffee in his canteen and go like three straight days.
我有朋友，我的一个朋友，托尼，BTF 托尼，他会带着一罐哥本哈根啤酒和食堂里的咖啡去野外，连续三天。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
He's like a desert turtle.
他就像一只沙漠龟。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
He's a desert rat, man.
他是一只沙漠老鼠，伙计。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
He could just survive.
他只能活下去。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yep.
是的。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
And I would always have to bring a ton of water, and I sweat a ton when I work out or when I'm doing anything that requires physical output.
我总是需要带大量的水，当我锻炼或做任何需要体力输出的事情时，我会出很多汗。
I sweat a ton, so I have to drink a lot of water for sure.
我出汗很多，所以我肯定要喝大量的水。
But not everyone's the same.
但并不是每个人都一样。
You know?
你知道？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah, I think if most people focused more on hydration and movement, they would find they have two, I'm going to venture a guess here, this is not a scientific study, but two to four times more energy than if they focused on caloric energy and what to eat.
是的，我认为如果大多数人更多地关注水分和运动，他们会发现自己有两个，我在这里大胆猜测，这不是一项科学研究，但比他们关注热量和吃什么的能量多出两到四倍。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah, and I think the cool thing about this, you're using the term energy, and what's cool about this is you or I, I create energy, right?
是的，我认为这很酷，你使用了能量这个词，最酷的是你或我，我创造能量，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
I create energy by, like I said, by going to lifting in the morning, by going and doing burp...
正如我所说，我通过早上举重、打嗝来创造能量……
You go do burpees, you go do 100 burpees, you're creating energy.
你去做波比跳，你去做 100 个波比跳，你正在创造能量。
You're going to be tired, you're going to be sweating, but you just created energy, so that stuff is totally true.
你会很累，你会出汗，但你刚刚创造了能量，所以这些都是完全正确的。
I'm glad there's neuroscience to back it up.
我很高兴有神经科学来支持这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I'm actually thinking about devoting some of my lab to this.
我实际上正在考虑将我的一些实验室投入到这方面。
One of the best examples, another familiar territory for you is cold water.
最好的例子之一，另一个你熟悉的领域是冷水。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Nowadays there's a lot about ice baths, and cold baths, and showers, and all that, and I always like to just say, listen, it's all just a reliable source of inducing adrenaline release.
现在有很多关于冰浴、冷水浴、淋浴等等的内容，我总是喜欢说，听着，这都是诱导肾上腺素释放的可靠来源。
And you get out of a cold shower, you have more energy, and that energy couldn't have been caloric energy, it's adrenaline.
当你洗完冷水澡后，你会有更多的能量，而这种能量不可能是热量，而是肾上腺素。
And again, it's fair to say I'm obsessed by the ideas of identity, which is a little bit how we started off and I want to get back to it, and energy.
再说一遍，可以公平地说，我对身份的想法很着迷，这就是我们开始的方式，我想回到它和能量。
I feel like identity and energy can account for 75% of what it is to live a good life, if you can master those.
我觉得如果你能掌握的话，身份和精力可以占到美好生活的75%。
Because then it all seems to fall into bins.
因为那时一切似乎都掉进了垃圾箱。
It's like, of course you need sleep.
就像，你当然需要睡眠。
Why?
为什么？
Well, to restore your neural energy, right?
嗯，恢复你的神经能量，对吗？
At some point, you just fade out of neural energy if you don't sleep.
在某些时候，如果你不睡觉，你的神经能量就会逐渐消失。
So sleep then falls into a particular bin with a particular purpose.
因此，睡眠会落入具有特定目的的特定容器中。
And then exercise becomes not a way to burn energy, but as you said, to create energy.
然后运动就不再是燃烧能量的方式，而是像你说的那样，创造能量的方式。
And we actually are starting to understand why this is.
我们实际上开始理解这是为什么。
If you'll indulge me for a second on some neuroscience, we didn't talk about this last time.
请允许我讲讲一些神经科学，上次我们没有讨论过这个。
We have neural circuits that control deliberate action.
我们有控制有意行动的神经回路。
We have neural circuits that control deliberate actions that we forget that we're doing, like walking.
我们有神经回路来控制我们忘记自己正在做的有意行为，比如走路。
And then we have neural circuits which are called central pattern generators, and these are the neural circuits that love to just work on their own and in the background, just kind of hum in the background and take care of all the stuff like heartbeat, breathing, and movement that is repetitive.
然后我们有被称为中央模式生成器的神经回路，这些神经回路喜欢在后台自行工作，只是在后台发出嗡嗡声，并处理所有的事情，例如心跳、呼吸和重复的运动。
Like if you're just marching and you don't have to adjust your cadence much, or maybe you're hiking even and stepping this rock, that rock.
就像如果你只是在行军，你不需要调整你的节奏，或者你甚至在徒步旅行，踩着这块石头，那块石头。
Once those central pattern generators get going, it's very automatic.
一旦这些中央模式生成器开始运行，它就会非常自动化。
And we know that once those central pattern generators get going, there's the release of those catecholamines, those three or four molecules that then feed all the other neural systems.
我们知道，一旦这些中枢模式发生器启动，就会释放儿茶酚胺，即三四个分子，然后为所有其他神经系统提供营养。
They're called neuromodulators for a reason, because they set the gain higher.
它们被称为神经调节器是有原因的，因为它们将增益设置得更高。
So then you go out for a run, or a jog, or a hike, or something, or you pedal, or you row, and then your whole system is at a higher RPM.
因此，当你出去跑步、慢跑、远足或其他什么活动时，或者你踩踏板、或者划船，然后你的整个系统就会处于更高的转速。
So when you say create energy, neuroscientists are starting to understand what that is.
因此，当你说创造能量时，神经科学家开始理解那是什么。
Repetitive movement that allows you to forget the motor commands that are required to generate that movement.
重复的运动可以让您忘记产生该运动所需的电机命令。
You might think about your row stroke or something like that, but you can do it without thinking much.
你可能会考虑你的划船动作或类似的事情，但你不需要太多思考就可以做到。
You come off of that, and you now are set at a higher RPM to do more deliberate stuff.
你摆脱了这种状态，现在你会以更高的转速去做更多有意识的事情。
And none of this, again, involved eating enough carbohydrates, or making sure you had enough ketones or enough protein.
再说一次，这一切都不需要吃足够的碳水化合物，或者确保你有足够的酮或足够的蛋白质。
It's like you got plenty of that stuff, provided you nourish at some point every 24 hours or so.
就好像你有很多这样的东西，只要你每 24 小时左右在某个时间点补充营养即可。
So I think we know a little bit about the science behind Jocko Willink's schedule now.
所以我认为我们现在对乔科·威林克日程安排背后的科学原理有了一些了解。
But I will ask this, are there certain forms of exercise, like weightlifting versus cardio, that you find give you an especially big boost in what we're calling energy?
但我会问，是否有某些形式的运动，比如举重和有氧运动，你发现它们可以给你带来特别大的能量提升？
And here this could be cognitive energy, it could be physical energy, but a readiness for the next thing.
在这里，这可能是认知能量，也可能是身体能量，而是为下一件事做好准备。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah.
是的。
First I got to back you up on this.
首先我必须在这一点上支持你。
I love backing up your science.
我喜欢支持你的科学。
So do you ever ruck march, like put on a heavy weight and ruck?
那么，你是否曾经进行过拉克行军，比如举起重物并进行拉克？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Sorry to interrupt.
抱歉打扰。
Yeah, Peter Attia got me into this.
是的，彼得·阿提亚让我陷入了困境。
He got me into doing a long Sunday, instead of a long Sunday run, throwing on a lightweight vest or a ruck and going out for three hours.
他让我在周日进行长时间的跑步，而不是进行长时间的周日跑步，穿上轻质背心或背心，出去三个小时。
And the first 20 minutes I find I always want to go faster and get it over with, but then I've learned that the real pain in it-
前 20 分钟我发现我总是想更快地结束这一切，但后来我发现真正的痛苦是——
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
sets in around an hour, and then the beauty sets in around 90 minutes where you're like, "I could do this all day, all night, and I never want to stop."
大约一个小时后，美丽的景色会在大约 90 分钟后出现，你会想，“我可以整天、整晚都这样做，而且我永远不想停下来。”
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
See, that's when you were describing how these chemicals get released and once you're in that automatic mode.
看，当你描述这些化学物质如何释放以及一旦你处于自动模式时。
Because in the SEAL teams, you're doing maritime operations for a month and then you're going to do some kill house shooting, and so you're not carrying a bunch of weight.
因为在海豹突击队中，你要进行一个月的海上行动，然后你要进行一些杀戮室射击，所以你不会承受很大的重量。
And then you go out to the desert and now you're putting on 80 pounds and you're going on a, like day one, you get out there, you're going on an 80-pound ruck march.
然后你去沙漠，现在你的体重增加了 80 磅，就像第一天一样，你走出去，你正在进行 80 磅的徒步旅行。
And the first freaking 17 minutes, the first 23 minutes just suck.
第一个可怕的 17 分钟，前 23 分钟简直糟透了。
They just suck.
他们只是很糟糕。
And what was beautiful was by the time I was 23, 24 years old, I'm like, "Oh yeah, this is going to suck for 17 minutes, and then I'm going to be a robot, and it doesn't matter anymore, and I can just keep going forever." So it sounds like what you're saying is what I experienced basically my whole adult life.
美妙的是，当我 23、24 岁的时候，我想，“哦，是的，这会很糟糕 17 分钟，然后我就会变成一个机器人，这不再重要了，我可以永远继续下去。”所以听起来你所说的基本上就是我整个成年生活所经历的。
There's going to be a little break-in period mentally where you think this totally sucks, and then you just can keep going for a really, really long time and it's not that big of a deal.
心理上会有一段磨合期，你会觉得这很糟糕，然后你就可以继续坚持很长一段时间，这没什么大不了的。
To your question of is there any form of exercise that gives me that energy boost?
对于你的问题，是否有任何形式的锻炼可以让我精力充沛？
I would have to say the high intensity sort of anaerobic blast, whether it's on the bike, or on the rower, or swinging a kettlebell hard, something like that, that last 10, 15 minutes, that's a really good way to peak my mentality for the day.
我不得不说高强度的无氧爆发，无论是骑自行车，划船，还是用力挥动壶铃，诸如此类，持续 10、15 分钟，这是让我当天的心态达到顶峰的好方法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you do the cold water thing?
你会做冷水吗？
I mean-
我的意思是——
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you certainly did a lot of it in BUDs.
你确实在 BUD 中做了很多这样的事情。
I mean, do you force yourself into cold water on a regular basis?
我的意思是，你是否经常强迫自己浸入冷水中？
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
I have a cold bath in my house and I get in every day.
我家有冷水澡，每天都进去。
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How long are you spending in there?
你在那里待多久？
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Usually around five minutes.
一般五分钟左右。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Five minutes.
五分钟。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Before you train or after you train?
训练前还是训练后？
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
No, after.
不，之后。
So this is something I haven't played with yet.
所以这是我还没有玩过的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
And for me, I'm like such a...
而对于我来说，我就像这样一个...
I don't like to make a bunch of effort for something.
我不喜欢为了一件事付出太多的努力。
So for me, going downstairs, getting in the ice tub, and I guess you only need to do it in the, before you work out, you only go a minute, right?
所以对我来说，下楼，进入冰浴缸，我想你只需要在锻炼之前做，你只需要一分钟，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do a minute to three.
做一分钟到三点。
Joe and I have been texting back and forth about this.
乔和我一直在发短信讨论此事。
There's a lab at Stanford, Craig Heller's lab, that works on cold and performance.
斯坦福大学有一个实验室，克雷格·海勒的实验室，致力于研究寒冷和性能。
And the athletes at Stanford, mainly the cross-country team and the football players, are doing cold before their training because of the huge increase, huge long-lasting increase in dopamine and adrenaline that's caused by that.
斯坦福大学的运动员，主要是越野队和橄榄球运动员，在训练前会感到寒冷，因为由此引起的多巴胺和肾上腺素的巨大增加，巨大且持久的增加。
They're finding it increases performance, mainly by waking people up and getting them focused.
他们发现它可以提高绩效，主要是通过唤醒人们并让他们集中注意力。
It creates energy, basically.
基本上，它创造能量。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And students, everyone thinks they're like, "Oh, athletes are all super motivated." This is no pick against Stanford athletes in particular.
学生们，每个人都认为他们是这样的，“哦，运动员们都非常有动力。”这并不是专门针对斯坦福大学的运动员。
A lot of athletes are excellent at what they do because they're very lazy when they're not training.
许多运动员在他们所做的事情上表现出色，因为他们在不训练时非常懒惰。
This is true.
这是真实的。
Not all athletes, but a lot of athletes are.
不是所有运动员，但很多运动员都是。
And so they're really good at resting and recovering so they can train more.
所以他们非常擅长休息和恢复，这样他们就可以进行更多训练。
But a lot of athletes have a hard time getting into gear to train every day, and the cold is a great stimulus, right?
但是很多运动员每天都很难进入状态进行训练，而寒冷又是一个很大的刺激吧？
It's like a four-shot of espresso kind of stimulus-
这就像四杯浓缩咖啡的刺激——
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
without all the jitters.
没有所有的紧张。
Yeah.
是的。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
I think maybe going in there for a minute would be cool before a workout.
我想也许在锻炼前进去一分钟会很酷。
I will say this.
我会这么说。
So I had a long workout and it was a Saturday, which means on Saturday I do jujitsu kind of in the morning around 10:00.
所以我进行了长时间的锻炼，而且那天是周六，这意味着周六我会在早上 10:00 左右练习柔术。
And I had a long workout, went for a long run.
我进行了长时间的锻炼，进行了长跑。
It was hot, and I just got in the ice bath and I sat in there for seven minutes, like the deep chill.
天气很热，我刚进冰浴，就在那里坐了七分钟，感觉很冷。
I got out and then I went right to jujitsu, and I felt awful.
我下了车，然后直接去练柔术，我感觉很糟糕。
I felt absolutely awful, like tight, cold, and it took me an extra three rounds to get warmed up again.
我感觉非常糟糕，感觉又紧又冷，我又花了三轮才重新热身。
So that kind of left a bad taste in my mouth for pre-work icing.
所以这让我对上班前的糖霜感到很不好。
But I'm going to try the short, because I was talking to another friend of mine, they're like, "Oh, no, only go a minute before."
但我要尝试一下短片，因为我正在和我的另一个朋友聊天，他们就像，“哦，不，只在一分钟前就去。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Maybe I'll give that a try.
也许我会尝试一下。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If it's really cold, 30 seconds to a minute is going to get you this big release in adrenaline and dopamine.
如果天气真的很冷，30秒到一分钟就能让你的肾上腺素和多巴胺大量释放。
And-
还有——
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Actually, one time I did try the chamber that blasts cold air on you.
事实上，有一次我确实尝试过向你吹冷空气的房间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
The cryo?
冷冻机？
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah, the cryo.
是的，冷冻。
And I did that for a minute or whatever.
我这样做了一分钟或其他时间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
And that did make me feel pre-workout pretty good.
这确实让我在锻炼前感觉很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I think that the whole notion of cold for metabolism, people say, "Well, it's not that big of an increase in metabolism." Look, as far as I'm concerned, the main function of the cold for most people is going to be the discipline of doing it, the sense of resilience that you can build up over time, just being familiar with having adrenaline in your system, and then the fact that the dopamine increases are huge and long-lasting.
我认为寒冷对新陈代谢的整个概念，人们会说，“嗯，新陈代谢的增加并没有那么大。”听着，就我而言，感冒对大多数人来说的主要功能是锻炼的纪律，随着时间的推移你可以建立的弹性感，只是熟悉你的系统中含有肾上腺素，然后多巴胺的增加是巨大且持久的。
They're like 2.5x increases.
它们大约增加了 2.5 倍。
There's a colleague of mine at Stanford, Ana Lemke, who runs our dual diagnosis addiction clinic.
我在斯坦福大学的一位同事安娜·莱姆克 (Ana Lemke) 负责运营我们的双重诊断成瘾诊所。
She had a patient getting off cocaine addiction who decided to use cold ice baths as a way to kind of assist himself along the way.
她有一位戒掉可卡因成瘾的病人，他决定用冰浴来帮助自己。
He wasn't getting dopamine from cocaine anymore, so he decided to get it from the ice bath.
他不再从可卡因中获取多巴胺，所以他决定从冰浴中获取多巴胺。
The difference is, is cocaine gives you these sharp increases and then decreases that drop you way below baseline.
不同之处在于，可卡因会让你急剧增加，然后减少，使你远远低于基线。
So what do people do?
那么人们会做什么呢？
They go seek more cocaine.
他们去寻找更多的可卡因。
It's really pernicious that way.
这样实在是太有害了。
Whereas the ice bath and cold showers will give this long arc lasting two to three hours or more.
而冰浴和冷水淋浴会使这种长弧持续两到三个小时或更长时间。
And that's really something to treasure.
这确实是值得珍惜的东西。
The idea that you can basically save on your heating bill, give yourself this huge dopamine increase, and I think everything points to the fact that it's healthy and good.
你基本上可以节省取暖费，让自己的多巴胺大量增加，我认为一切都表明它是健康和有益的。
But obviously it's working for you to do it after your training.
但显然，在训练后这样做对你来说是有效的。
I think all the gym rats who want more hypertrophy, who are trying to get an extra eighth of an inch on their tricep or whatever, they freak out because they hear that it can inhibit hypertrophy.
我认为所有想要更多肥大的健身房老鼠，那些试图让三头肌增加八分之一英寸或其他什么的人，他们都会惊慌失措，因为他们听说它可以抑制肥大。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then for whatever reason, there's this cat-
然后不管出于什么原因，就有了这只猫——
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
So wait, so am I doing it wrong?
那么等等，我做错了吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, yeah.
嗯，是的。
Clearly you're doing it right now.
显然你现在正在做这件事。
No, you're not.
不，你不是。
I don't think your hypertrophy is suffering.
我认为你的肥大并没有受到影响。
I actually am of the mind that if you're training really hard, sure, getting in the cold afterwards might blunt some hypertrophy.
事实上，我认为，如果你训练非常努力，当然，训练后的寒冷可能会削弱一些肥大。
That is what the data tell us.
这就是数据告诉我们的。
Andy Galpin's kind of the expert on that literature.
安迪·加尔平（Andy Galpin）是该领域的专家。
But frankly, I don't know anyone that trains really hard with the weights and then gets into the cold that looks like they're suffering from hypertrophy.
但坦率地说，我不知道有谁经过非常艰苦的举重训练，然后却陷入了看起来像是患有肥大的寒冷之中。
I know a lot of people, however, who love to point fingers at and poke at cold exposure.
然而，我认识很多人，他们喜欢对寒冷的暴露指手画脚。
This seems to be a big thing on social media.
这似乎是社交媒体上的一件大事。
People who don't like the cold love to point out the studies showing that the cold screws up everything, and most of them look like they need a few sets in the gym to me.
不喜欢寒冷的人喜欢指出研究表明寒冷会把一切搞砸，而且在我看来，他们中的大多数人都需要在健身房里做几组。
And I feel comfortable poking at them because I feel like all of these are just tools, right?
我觉得戳它们很舒服，因为我觉得所有这些都只是工具，对吧？
And in any case, I'm a big fan of deliberate cold exposure, mostly for the neural effects.
无论如何，我非常喜欢故意暴露在寒冷中，主要是为了神经效应。
Again, I'm obsessing over this concept of energy, and it's something that I can't help but ask is the cognitive side of this and the effects of winning and losing.
再说一遍，我对能量的概念很着迷，我忍不住要问的是它的认知方面以及输赢的影响。
So you obviously have a lot of deployments, and a lot of wins, whatever in the context that meant, right?
所以你显然有很多部署，并且有很多胜利，无论这意味着什么，对吗？
Kill the target, capture the hostage, et cetera.
杀死目标、抓获人质等等。
And then, as is the case with war, there have been some cases of losses, right?
然后就像战争一样，也有一些损失的情况，对吗？
You've lost people.
你已经失去了人。
Maybe there were targets that weren't accomplished, right?
也许有些目标没有完成，对吗？
This kind of thing.
这种事。
And you've posted about these, and these are always things that are hard to see, but I think it's really important that you post about people that you've lost, right?
你发布了关于这些的信息，这些总是很难看到的事情，但我认为你发布关于你失去的人的信息非常重要，对吧？
Because first of all, these people served, but second of all, that things don't always work out the way that we want and sometimes to really catastrophic consequences.
因为首先，这些人服务过，但其次，事情并不总是按照我们想要的方式发展，有时甚至会带来灾难性的后果。
There's a theory in biology that when we win, we somehow get more energy to win more through the release of, no surprise, dopamine and some related molecules.
生物学中有一个理论，当我们获胜时，我们会以某种方式获得更多能量，通过释放多巴胺和一些相关分子来赢得更多，这并不奇怪。
And in fact, testosterone in both men and women is another close cousin of the dopamine system.
事实上，男性和女性的睾丸激素都是多巴胺系统的另一个近亲。
They're actually released from the same general, or the patterns of release are from the same general areas in the brain, believe it or not, and body.
不管你信不信，它们实际上是从同一个一般区域释放的，或者释放的模式来自大脑和身体中相同的一般区域。
But when we win, we feel like we can keep going, right?
但当我们获胜时，我们觉得我们可以继续前进，对吧？
You look at the team that wins and it's like they'll play another game.
你看看获胜的球队，就好像他们会再打一场比赛。
The Super Bowl winners, you imagine they're jumping up and down and they could probably play another Super Bowl.
超级碗冠军，你想象他们会跳上跳下，他们可能会再次参加超级碗比赛。
Losing, we know, sure can drop things like testosterone and dopamine for some period of time.
我们知道，失败肯定会在一段时间内降低睾丸激素和多巴胺等物质。
But when you were in the teams, what was your observation about how winning and losing would impact people in the short and long term?
但是，当您在团队中时，您对胜利和失败将如何影响人们的短期和长期观察有何看法？
In other words, would you observe people that had a quick reset button and could just say, "That was terrible," and then transmute, I guess I'm getting into kind of the Eastern language now, convert that into ...
换句话说，你会观察到人们有一个快速重置按钮，只能说，“那太糟糕了”，然后转化，我想我现在正在进入某种东方语言，将其转换成......
energy to go do better the next time.
有精力下次做得更好。
Whereas we also see people, military and in the civilian world, that a loss, in particular severe losses, basically set them down the path of less energy.
然而我们也看到人们，无论是军队还是平民世界，损失，特别是严重损失，基本上使他们走上了能量减少的道路。
It certainly isn't less calories.
这当然不是更少的卡路里。
In fact, most of the time it's the other way.
事实上，大多数时候情况恰恰相反。
They start consuming more calories, and that doesn't get them going.
他们开始消耗更多的卡路里，但这并不能让他们继续前进。
So again, this notion of energy, and now I'm asking wins versus losses.
再说一次，能量的概念，现在我问的是胜利与损失。
What did you observe?
你观察到了什么？
And from the perspective of leadership, and maybe more importantly from the perspective of yourself, how do you work with that?
从领导的角度来看，也许更重要的是从你自己的角度来看，你如何处理这个问题？
How do you calibrate wins and losses?
你如何校准胜利和失败？
How do you transmute losses into energy?
如何将损失转化为能量？
Because wins we know convert to energy, but losses oftentimes can sap our energy way, way down.
因为我们知道胜利会转化为能量，但失败往往会大大削弱我们的能量。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
I think to start with, I think that the selection process to get into the SEAL teams is going to weed out a bunch of people that can't recover very quickly from something bad.
我认为首先，我认为进入海豹突击队的选拔过程将淘汰掉一群无法从糟糕的事情中很快恢复过来的人。
So you probably heard these type of stories before.
所以你以前可能听过这类故事。
The kid that was the star of the football team, the star of the basketball team, the captain of this, the captain of that, he's been winning his whole life.
这个孩子是足球队的明星，篮球队的明星，这个队的队长，那个队的队长，他一生都在赢得胜利。
He goes to BUD/S and he quits.
他去了 BUD/S，然后就辞职了。
Because in BUD/S, you're not going to win.
因为在 BUD/S 中，你不会赢。
You're certainly not going to win everything.
你当然不会赢得一切。
They're going to find what you're not good at, and they're going to exploit that, and you're going to lose.
他们会发现你不擅长的东西，并利用它，而你就会失败。
This is what happens.
这就是发生的事情。
So a lot of guys that may lose and it disrupts their motivation, they're probably just going to quit.
因此，很多人可能会失败，这会扰乱他们的动力，他们可能会放弃。
And so that's why you get this massive attrition rate with guys that are studs.
这就是为什么你会发现那些猛男的流失率如此之高。
We're talking Division I athletes.
我们正在谈论一级运动员。
Division I athlete, Division I wrestlers, Division I football players, Division I runners and swimmers.
一级运动员、一级摔跤运动员、一级橄榄球运动员、一级跑步运动员和游泳运动员。
They all come to BUD/S.
他们都来到BUD/S。
They all quit.
他们都放弃了。
Not all of them quit, but there's plenty of examples of the highest level of collegiate athlete in sports that translate very well to what you're doing in basic SEAL training, and they quit.
并不是所有人都退出了，但是有很多体育运动中最高水平的大学运动员的例子，这些例子很好地转化为你在海豹突击队的基本训练中所做的事情，然后他们就退出了。
And sometimes it's because they don't know how to lose, they don't know how to recover from a loss, and they're just...
有时是因为他们不知道如何失去，他们不知道如何从损失中恢复，他们只是......
So I think already once you get to a SEAL team, you've got people that are, generally speaking, going to be pretty resilient when it comes to dealing with a loss.
所以我认为，一旦你加入海豹突击队，一般来说，你的员工在处理损失时就会非常有弹性。
Not only that, you just get used to-- You talk about losing people.
不仅如此，你还习惯了——你谈论失去员工。
You're friends with this guy, you meet this guy in SEAL training.
你是这个人的朋友，你在海豹突击队训练中遇到了这个人。
Hey, this guy seems like a stud.
嘿，这家伙看起来像个猛男。
Oh, he's just going to quit.
哦，他只是要放弃。
And you're going to lose five, six, seven people, eight people.
你将会失去五人、六人、七人、八人。
People quit so fast you don't even keep track of them.
人们放弃得如此之快，你甚至都没有注意到他们。
So you're just going to lose, you're just going to get used to it.
所以你只会输，你只会习惯它。
So there's that.
所以就是这样。
Now, once you're in the teams, and what you're talking about is now you start taking much more significant loss.
现在，一旦你加入了团队，你所说的就是你开始承受更重大的损失。
You're not losing a race, you're losing one of your friends.
你不是输掉了一场比赛，而是失去了一个朋友。
And this is what, from a leadership perspective, you have to pay attention to.
从领导的角度来看，这就是你必须注意的。
So when you're a leader in any organization, you're basically in charge of a mob.
因此，当你是任何组织的领导者时，你基本上就负责管理一群暴民。
When it comes to what their morale is, they're a mob, and they feed off of each other just like a mob rioting in the streets going, "Oh, we can break this window.
当谈到他们的士气时，他们是一群暴徒，他们互相依靠，就像暴徒在街上骚乱一样，“哦，我们可以打破这扇窗户。
Let's break all the windows." And they move this mob mentality.
让我们打破所有的窗户吧。”他们改变了这种暴民心态。
And that happens with morale inside of a team.
这取决于团队内部的士气。
And you as a leader can't get caught up with the mob.
作为领导者，你不能被暴民追上。
You can't let that happen.
你不能让这种事发生。
You have to detach yourself from the mob mentally so that you don't get caught up in their emotions and their morale.
你必须在精神上远离暴民，这样你就不会陷入他们的情绪和士气之中。
Because if you get caught up in their emotions and you get caught up in their morale, you can't correct it.
因为如果你陷入他们的情绪和士气之中，你就无法纠正它。
So we go out on a mission.
所以我们出去执行任务。
The mission goes great.
任务进展顺利。
We get into a gun fight, kill a couple bad guys.
我们进行一场枪战，杀死了几个坏人。
Everyone's okay, high fives, everyone's feeling great.
每个人都很好，击掌，每个人都感觉很好。
You come back to base.
你回到基地。
"Hey, we don't need to debrief.
“嘿，我们不需要汇报情况。
That was perfect.
那太完美了。
Hey, we don't need to get our gear maintained.
嘿，我们不需要维护我们的装备。
We can just go to bed.
我们可以去睡觉了。
We're awesome." That's when the leader has to say, "Oh, we've got the mob, and the mob is becoming slightly arrogant.
我们太棒了。”这时，领导者必须说：“哦，我们遇到了暴民，而且暴民变得有点傲慢了。
Hey, guys, real quick, that was a good op, but there's some things we could improve on." You got to bring that mob back and bring them back to center line.
嘿，伙计们，快点，这是一个很好的操作，但还有一些事情我们可以改进。”你必须把那群暴徒带回来，让他们回到中心线。
Same thing in the other direction.
另一个方向也是如此。
You go out on an operation, it doesn't go well.
你出去做手术，进展并不顺利。
You go out on an operation, you take casualties.
你出去执行任务，就会造成人员伤亡。
Now you come back to base, you see guys moping around, you see the spirit starting to break, and same thing.
现在你回到基地，你看到人们闷闷不乐，你看到精神开始崩溃，同样的事情。
If you're part of that mob, you'll be with them.
如果你是那群暴徒的一员，你就会和他们在一起。
Your morale will be breaking.
你的士气将会崩溃。
Your spirit will be breaking.
你的精神将会崩溃。
You got to look at them and say, "Oh, I see what's happening.
你必须看着他们说：“哦，我明白发生了什么。
Hey, guys, listen up.
嘿，伙计们，听着。
That was tough.
那很艰难。
Didn't go the way we wanted it to go.
没有按照我们希望的方式发展。
We need to learn some lessons.
我们需要吸取一些教训。
Here's some things I can do better.
这里有一些我可以做得更好的事情。
What can we do better to make sure that that never happens again?
我们可以做些什么更好来确保这种情况不再发生？
What can we do to make sure we have the opportunity to go out and avenge our brother on the battlefield?
我们怎样才能确保我们有机会出去在战场上为我们的兄弟报仇呢？
What can we do to move this thing forward?" So as a leader, when it comes to winning and losing, you're generally going to be the person countering what the mob mentality is.
我们能做些什么来推动这件事向前发展？”因此，作为领导者，当谈到输赢时，你通常会成为对抗暴民心态的人。
Because when the mob starts winning, they want to keep winning, and they might get arrogant.
因为当暴民开始获胜时，他们想要继续获胜，并且他们可能会变得傲慢。
When the mob is losing, they might start to lose more because their attitude goes down the drain.
当暴民失败时，他们可能会因为他们的态度下降而开始失去更多。
So that's what you have to pay attention to from a leadership perspective.
所以从领导的角度来看，这是你必须注意的。
For me personally, I know what I did when I lost guys was focus on, all right, we need to celebrate the life.
就我个人而言，我知道当我失去队友时我所做的就是专注于，好吧，我们需要庆祝生活。
We need to mourn the loss.
我们需要哀悼损失。
And then we need to go to work.
然后我们需要去上班。
We need to get our gear back on.
我们需要恢复装备。
We need to lock and load our weapons.
我们需要锁定并装载我们的武器。
We need to get back out there.
我们需要回到那里。
I know that that's what we needed to do.
我知道这就是我们需要做的。
So often, the best way to contend with problems, with issues, with adversity, is action.
通常，应对问题、问题和逆境的最佳方法就是行动。
Is by taking action.
就是通过行动。
The more you sit, and the more you wait, and the more time you spend with that adversity with the upper hand inside your head, the worse it's going to get So for me, always taking action, making something happen.
你坐着的时间越长，等待的时间越长，你在逆境中花费的时间越多，你的头脑中占据上风，情况就会变得越糟糕，所以对我来说，总是采取行动，让事情发生。
It doesn't have to be huge.
它不必很大。
It doesn't have to be some mammoth triumph that you're going to go and pursue.
你不必去追求某种巨大的胜利。
But if you say, "Hey, listen, this what happened didn't go the way we wanted it to.
但如果你说：“嘿，听着，发生的事情并没有按照我们想要的方式发展。
We're going to get our gear back on.
我们要重新穿上装备。
We're going to go back out.
我们要出去了。
We're going to do this other mission." And that's what I think.
我们将执行另一项任务。”这就是我的想法。
I think taking action, and it's in your personal life, too.
我认为采取行动，这也体现在你的个人生活中。
Something doesn't go the way you wanted it to go.
有些事情并没有按照你想要的方式进行。
You didn't get the job you wanted, you didn't get the hire, you didn't get the promotion.
你没有得到你想要的工作，你没有得到聘用，你没有得到晋升。
You can go home and sit there and dwell on it.
你可以回家坐在那里思考它。
That's not getting you any progress.
这不会让你取得任何进展。
Or you say, "Okay, you know what?
或者你说：“好吧，你知道吗？
Let me do a quick analysis.
让我快速分析一下。
Why didn't I get that promotion?
为什么我没有获得晋升？
Oh, it's because I didn't get this qualification, or I hadn't jumped through this gate.
哦，是因为我没有获得这个资格，或者说我没有跨过这道门。
Okay, cool.
好吧，酷。
What do I need to do?
我需要做什么？
Let me look into how do I get to jump through that gate so next time I will get the promotion?" And you start taking action.
让我看看如何才能跨过那扇门，以便下次我能获得晋升？”然后你开始采取行动。
So action for me is a cure for a lot of problems that we have in life.
因此，行动对我来说是解决生活中许多问题的良药。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love this because the image that's arising in my mind, I'll share it with you and tell me where it agrees with and maybe violates what you're telling me, but what I was imagining when you were talking about leadership in the mob is a bunch of candles, but not wax candles.
我喜欢这个，因为我脑海中浮现的形象，我会与你分享，并告诉我它与你告诉我的内容一致的地方，也许违反了你告诉我的内容，但当你谈论暴民中的领导力时，我想象的是一束蜡烛，而不是蜡蜡烛。
These are oil candles.
这些是油蜡烛。
And you're talking about a win, so it could be an op, go out and win.
你谈论的是一场胜利，所以这可能是一个机会，出去赢得胜利。
It could be a team.
它可以是一个团队。
It could be an individual taking an exam, and they get an A plus, or it doesn't matter.
可能是一个人参加考试，他们得到了 A+，或者没关系。
But they're riding high.
但他们正处于高位。
Those wins we know crank up those catecholamines, and it's as if the intensity of that flame starts going up as a consequence.
我们知道，这些胜利会提高儿茶酚胺的水平，结果就好像火焰的强度开始上升。
That's natural.
那是自然的。
But the oil in the candle is continuing to burn down.
但蜡烛中的油仍在继续燃烧。
You need to celebrate wins, but you're burning that oil.
你需要庆祝胜利，但你却在烧油。
And so what we're really talking about here is how to moderate and then reclaim energy.
所以我们在这里真正讨论的是如何调节然后回收能量。
And I was imagining you as the leader who's like, "Okay, guys, great, but listen, you're burning that oil." That oil is what got you the win.
我想象你是一个领导者，他会说：“好吧，伙计们，很棒，但是听着，你正在烧油。”正是这种石油让你获胜。
Let's not just clamp it like we can do a few fist bumps and maybe celebrate in some other ways, but then let's take the energy we got and put it to the next thing rather than just go crazy.
让我们不要只是像碰拳头或者以其他方式庆祝一样夹紧它，而是让我们把我们获得的能量投入到下一件事中，而不是发疯。
Drugs of abuse, in particular, drugs that tap into the dopamine system, namely cocaine and amphetamine, and just because there's no way to avoid this if we're being true to the biology, the energy, the dopamine system was designed for foraging for all sorts of things, food, so people that overindulge food or seek out food, sex, people that overindulge in these things.
滥用药物，特别是利用多巴胺系统的药物，即可卡因和安非他明，因为如果我们忠于生物学、能量，就没有办法避免这种情况，多巴胺系统是为寻找各种东西、食物而设计的，所以人们过度沉迷于食物或寻求食物、性，过度沉迷于这些东西的人。
Those things, and again, this sort of leans to Eastern philosophy a bit, but there's Western neuroscience, or neuroscience we should just say to support it.
这些东西，再一次，有点倾向于东方哲学，但有西方神经科学，或者我们应该说是神经科学来支持它。
You start to deplete these dopamine systems.
你开始耗尽这些多巴胺系统。
The baseline starts to drop.
基线开始下降。
And so I'm imagining that the leader, you in this case, is saying, "Listen, let's tone it down, use the energy that we've gained and put it to good use rather than just burn it up enjoying it." And then, of course, after a loss when those, I sort of think of the candles going dimmer, but the oil reserve is still there, and it's like how do you start to tap back into the oil reserve?
所以我想象领导者，在这种情况下是你，会说：“听着，让我们缓和一下，利用我们获得的能量，好好利用它，而不是仅仅把它烧掉享受它。”然后，当然，在遭受损失之后，我有点认为蜡烛会变暗，但石油储备仍然存在，就像你如何开始重新利用石油储备一样？
Well, you have to actually ramp the candle up again.
好吧，你必须再次将蜡烛调高。
You can't just sit there waiting for the intensity of the flame to come back.
你不能只是坐在那里等待火焰强度回来。
You actually have to do something in order for that to happen.
实际上你必须做一些事情才能实现这一点。
So maybe this isn't the best analogy because it lacks sort of like the exactly what is the person turning the intensity up and down on these candles, but that's what comes to mind.
所以也许这不是最好的类比，因为它缺乏某种人确切地调高或调低这些蜡烛的强度的感觉，但这就是我想到的。
And in Eastern traditions, there's this idea of chi, of energy.
在东方传统中，有气、能量的概念。
Energy to fight, energy to seek mates, energy to seek food, energy for sex, energy for all of it is the same energy, and I actually believe that the energy that they're referring to are these catecholamines.
战斗的能量，寻找伴侣的能量，寻找食物的能量，性的能量，所有这些的能量都是同一种能量，我实际上相信他们所指的能量就是这些儿茶酚胺。
I really do.
我真的这么做。
Now, there are other energy systems, too, relating to child rearing, pair bonding, oxytocin, all the kind of like fuzzy, warm stuff that's super important.
现在，还有其他能量系统，与养育孩子、夫妻关系、催产素有关，所有这些都非常重要，比如模糊、温暖的东西。
We wouldn't exist as a species the way we do if we didn't honor that energy system also.
如果我们不尊重那个能源系统，我们就不会以我们现在的方式作为一个物种存在。
And that energy system that we normally think of as love as opposed to forward center of mass synergizes with this system.
我们通常认为是爱而不是前向质心的能量系统与该系统协同作用。
Like when you're working with and training with and people that you love, this could be your brothers, your sisters, whatever, your family.
就像当你和你爱的人一起工作和训练时，他们可能是你的兄弟、你的姐妹，无论什么，你的家人。
I think there's an amplifying effect on this whole thing.
我认为这对整个事情有放大效应。
If it's just for more dopamine, just for more money, just for more wins, just for more trophies.
如果只是为了更多的多巴胺，只是为了更多的钱，只是为了更多的胜利，只是为了更多的奖杯。
I'll never forget this as an aside, when I was a kid, I had this weird experience where Tony Hawk's dad rescued me from a skateboard contest in Linda Vista, the Linda Vista Boys Club.
我永远不会忘记这一点，当我还是个孩子的时候，我有过一次奇怪的经历，托尼霍克的爸爸在琳达维斯塔男孩俱乐部的滑板比赛中把我救了出来。
Everyone else left.
其他人都离开了。
I was left there alone.
我独自一人留在那里。
I was 14 because of my home life at that time, et cetera, and he was like, "Where are you going?" I'm like, "I'm going to take the bus to Lancaster.
我当时 14 岁，因为当时的家庭生活等等，他就问，“你要去哪里？”我想，“我要坐公共汽车去兰开斯特。
I know this guy." And he was like, "No, no, you're coming to our house." I was like, "Okay." So he took me to Tony's house, and I went into Tony's room that he had grown up in.
我认识这个人。”他说：“不，不，你要来我们家。”我当时想，“好吧。”于是他带我去了托尼家，我走进了托尼长大的房间。
Tony lived in Fallbrook at that time.
托尼当时住在福尔布鲁克。
And the room wasn't filled with trophies.
房间里并没有摆满奖杯。
The room was trophies.
房间里都是奖杯。
And I remember just thinking, like, "Holy cow." And when I think about that, and I think about what a healthy person Tony turned out to be, because I happened to be blessed to know him a little bit.
我记得我只是想，“天哪。”当我想到这一点时，我想到托尼原来是一个多么健康的人，因为我碰巧有幸认识他一点。
It's amazing because a lot of people that had those trophies, whatever domain of life, they converted all that into ways to just burn the oil down in their candle.
这是令人惊奇的，因为很多拥有这些奖杯的人，无论生活的哪个领域，他们都将所有这些转化为在蜡烛中燃烧油的方法。
He's a guy who's still going in his 50s.
他是一个还不到50多岁的人。
So anyway, that's a little aside story, but I think this notion of energy to me is so important because, as you said, when we move toward action and we complete something, the oil in that candle starts to get replenished and the flame burns hotter.
无论如何，这是一个小故事，但我认为能量的概念对我来说非常重要，因为正如你所说，当我们采取行动并完成某些事情时，蜡烛中的油开始得到补充，火焰燃烧得更热。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
What you're talking about, and I'm very interested in this now, and I don't know if this has already been measured or not, but what essentially we're talking about is confidence level.
你所说的，我现在对此非常感兴趣，我不知道这是否已经被测量过，但我们本质上谈论的是置信水平。
So if I go out and win, I feel good about it.
所以如果我出去赢了，我会感觉很好。
And let's say I'm doing a jujitsu tournament, and the first match I go out there and I submit the guy in 30, take him down, submit him in 30 seconds.
假设我正在参加柔术锦标赛，我参加的第一场比赛我在 30 秒内提交了那个人，把他打倒，在 30 秒内提交了他。
I'm feeling good.
我感觉很好。
I'm feeling confident.
我感觉很有信心。
So what does that mean?
那么这意味着什么呢？
My dopamine is up because I got that victory.
我的多巴胺升高了，因为我取得了胜利。
My testosterone is up because I got that victory.
我的睾丸激素上升了，因为我取得了胜利。
My confidence is up because I got that victory.
我的信心增强了，因为我获得了胜利。
Same thing, other direction.
同样的事情，不同的方向。
If I go out first match and I lose to somebody, my dopamine goes down, that chemical thing goes down, my confidence goes down.
如果我在第一场比赛中输给了某人，我的多巴胺就会下降，化学物质就会下降，我的信心就会下降。
And what I have to do is I have to learn how to maintain a level of confidence because if I get over-- If I win that first match, win the second match, I'm going to kill this next guy, and I go out and I'm sloppy and I don't care, that's when I get caught If I lack confidence, I go out there and there's nothing I'm able to do to beat this guy, this is going to be horrible, of course, I'm going to get smashed.
我要做的是我必须学会如何保持一定程度的自信，因为如果我克服了——如果我赢了第一场比赛，赢了第二场比赛，我就会杀死下一个家伙，然后我出去，我很马虎，我不在乎，那就是我被抓住的时候。如果我缺乏信心，我出去，我没有办法击败这个家伙，这将是可怕的，当然，我会被粉碎。
So it's a similar thing that we're talking about, and I just wonder how much, if you start measuring...
所以我们正在谈论的是类似的事情，我只是想知道如果你开始测量的话会有多少......
Because they say, hey, if you win, your testosterone goes up, right?
因为他们说，嘿，如果你赢了，你的睾丸激素就会上升，对吗？
And then if you win more, your testosterone goes up high, your dopamine goes up high, your confidence is going up.
然后，如果你赢得更多，你的睾丸激素就会升高，你的多巴胺就会升高，你的信心就会增强。
But you can get to a point where your confidence is too high, and now you're getting sloppy, and now you don't care.
但你可能会达到一个地步，你的信心太高了，现在你变得草率了，现在你不在乎了。
And you mentioned cocaine.
你提到了可卡因。
You see videos of people that are all coked up, and they, "Hey, I can do this." They think they can do everything.
你会看到人们都兴奋不已的视频，他们说：“嘿，我能做到。”他们认为他们可以做一切事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
All possibility.
一切可能性。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
They're overconfident, right?
他们太自信了，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yep.
是的。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
They think they can kick your ass.
他们认为他们可以踢你的屁股。
That's too much dopamine, too much ego, too much confidence.
这是太多的多巴胺、太多的自我、太多的自信。
The other side of the spectrum is someone that's on some kind of downer drug, and they don't feel like they can do anything.
另一方面是服用某种镇静药物的人，他们觉得自己无能为力。
They're lethargic, their confidence is low, and they're just depressed.
他们昏昏欲睡，信心低落，而且很沮丧。
So there's an interesting tie-in between dopamine, ego, confidence, and probably testosterone that you get from winning and from losing.
因此，多巴胺、自我、自信，可能还有你从胜利和失败中获得的睾丸激素之间存在着有趣的联系。
And once again, as a leader, from a leadership perspective, you can't get wrapped up in that.
再说一遍，作为领导者，从领导的角度来看，你不能陷入其中。
You can't get wrapped up in that.
你不能陷入其中。
You have to detach from it.
你必须脱离它。
You have to be able to take a step back.
你必须能够退一步。
And then, if you're good, even as a competitor, you'll say, "Oh yeah, that last match was easy, but I need to prepare for the next match.
然后，如果你表现出色，即使作为一名竞争对手，你也会说，“哦，是的，上一场比赛很容易，但我需要为下一场比赛做好准备。
I can't bring overconfidence." Look, I don't want a lack of confidence.
我不能过度自信。”听着，我不想缺乏自信。
It's a balance, right?
这是一个平衡，对吧？
It's that flame on the oil-burning lamp that you're talking about.
你所说的就是油灯上的火焰。
You want that steady flame.
你想要那种稳定的火焰。
You don't want too much, because it's going to burn out of control.
你不要想要太多，因为它会失控。
You don't want too little, the flame will go out.
你不要想要太少，火焰会熄灭。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Earlier, we talked about this notion that some of these older Hungarian psychologists had, which this notion of generators versus projectors.
早些时候，我们讨论了一些匈牙利老心理学家的概念，即生成器与投影仪的概念。
And their idea was that people sort of divide into these different categories, and the world needs both.
他们的想法是，人们可以分为这些不同的类别，而世界两者都需要。
It's not that one is better than the other, but the world absolutely needs both.
并不是说其中一个比另一个更好，而是世界绝对需要两者。
And there is this idea now, based on some neuroscience and some other psychology that I've been kind of lathing into, which is that generators know how to tap into the system, and they love this system.
现在有一个想法，基于一些神经科学和其他一些我一直在研究的心理学，那就是发电机知道如何利用这个系统，并且他们喜欢这个系统。
I think back to your story about being taken to shop for pants, and it turns out to be a trip to shop for a number of different experiences for you, right?
我回想起你被带去买裤子的故事，结果这对你来说是一次购物之旅，有很多不同的体验，对吧？
A really telling experience, having an action effect on the world and something coming back to you that still sits with you inside.
这是一次真正有说服力的体验，对世界产生行动影响，并且某些东西回到你身边，仍然留在你的内心。
In fact, there's a dopamine circuit there still related to this young woman, or then young woman at that time.
事实上，那里有一个多巴胺回路仍然与这个年轻女子，或者当时的年轻女子有关。
Some people are generators, and I think that they are more attuned to this dopamine system.
有些人是发电机，我认为他们更适应这种多巴胺系统。
And so as we're having this conversation, I'm guessing that about the estimate is that somewhere between 50% and 65% of people are going, "Yeah, I get it.
因此，当我们进行这次对话时，我猜测大约有 50% 到 65% 的人会说：“是的，我明白了。
More workouts is going to give me more energy.
更多的锻炼会给我更多的能量。
I need to do more of that.
我需要做更多这样的事情。
When I'm back on my heels, I need to think about the things I can complete," et cetera.
当我重新站起来时，我需要考虑我可以完成哪些事情，”等等。
And then the other 45% or so, or 35%, might be saying, "I don't really get it." Now, the idea is that the projectors can tap into these same circuits.
然后另外 45% 左右或 35% 的人可能会说：“我真的不明白。”现在，我们的想法是投影仪可以利用这些相同的电路。
Everyone has these catecholamine circuits, dopamine, et cetera, but that they tend to be more of observers in the world, and they like being partnered with and symbiotic with these people.
每个人都有这些儿茶酚胺回路、多巴胺等等，但他们往往更多地是世界的观察者，他们喜欢与这些人结伴共生。
Now, this starts to take on kind of stereotypical masculine, feminine things, but this exists on both sides.
现在，这开始呈现出某种刻板印象的男性化、女性化的东西，但这双方都存在。
It really does.
确实如此。
There might be some biases, right, by biological sex.
生理性别可能存在一些偏见，对吧。
There may not be, right?
可能没有吧？
We could argue that.
我们可以争论这一点。
It's probably an argument that'll get us into more trouble than to answers, and it doesn't really matter.
这可能是一个会给我们带来更多麻烦而不是得到答案的争论，但这并不重要。
The point is that some people are perfectly happy to be in the company of people winning because they feel good to see other people winning.
关键是，有些人非常高兴与获胜的人在一起，因为他们看到其他人获胜感到高兴。
They like to be a support staff.
他们喜欢成为支持人员。
That's what makes them feel good.
这就是让他们感觉良好的原因。
Other people would rather stick hot forks in their eyes than not be the person engaged in the activity.
其他人宁愿把热叉子插在眼睛里，也不愿成为参与这项活动的人。
Maybe not every activity, but the activity.
也许不是每一项活动，而是活动本身。
So we're talking about the generators and the projectors.
所以我们正在谈论发电机和投影仪。
I think that in the context of moderating these systems, it's so key.
我认为在调节这些系统的背景下，这是非常关键的。
It's key to have a long arc in a career path, military, science, or otherwise.
在军事、科学或其他方面的职业道路上拥有长的弧线是关键。
I think it's key in every domain of life, and I think for me, one thing that I've learned both the hard way and I've also benefited from the positive experience of, I think in relationships, this could be romantic relationships, but also friendships and in family, because there are generators and projectors almost always in those kind of symbiotic relationship, romantic couple or a family that some kids are more generators, some are more projectors just by something.
我认为这在生活的每个领域都是关键，我认为对我来说，我通过艰苦的方式学到了一件事，我也从积极的经历中受益，我认为在人际关系中，这可能是浪漫关系，也可能是友谊和家庭关系，因为在这种共生关系、浪漫情侣或家庭中几乎总是有发电机和投影仪，有些孩子更多是发电机，有些只是某种东西的投影仪。
Who knows?
谁知道？
Maybe it's hardwired, maybe not.
也许它是硬连线的，也许不是。
As the leader of your family, I'm going to assume one of the two leaders, but as a leader in your family, I'm not going to make any assumptions here.
作为你们家庭的领导者，我将假设两位领导者之一，但作为你们家庭的领导者，我不会在这里做出任何假设。
As the leader of your family, and also as a father in particular, how do you apply these same sorts of ideas when your kid is kind of down because it's hard to be a 14-year-old, or because it was a bad day, or when they're up, right?
作为家庭的领导者，特别是作为一名父亲，当你的孩子因为 14 岁的生活很艰难，或者因为今天过得很糟糕，或者当他们情绪高涨而情绪低落时，你如何应用这些相同的想法，对吧？
I think the up states are as interesting as the down states.
我认为上升的状态和下降的状态一样有趣。
Like yes, got the degree, got the win.
就像是的，获得了学位，获得了胜利。
How much do you let them celebrate before you're like, "Hey, listen.
在你说“嘿，听着。”之前，你要让他们庆祝多少。
You just got yourself another couple milliliters of oil in your candle.
你刚刚在蜡烛里又加了几毫升油。
What are you going to do with that?
你打算用它做什么？
You going to burn it, or are you going to save it for the next thing so you can climb the staircase?"
你要把它烧掉，还是把它留着以备下次使用，这样你就可以爬楼梯了？”
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Well, clearly, it's a very similar thing to what I just talked about.
嗯，显然，这与我刚才谈到的非常相似。
If your kid is doing well and wins the wrestling tournament and is like, "Yeah, I won the wrestling tournament," and what do they want to do?
如果您的孩子表现出色并赢得了摔跤锦标赛，并且会说：“是的，我赢得了摔跤锦标赛”，他们想做什么？
They want to eat a triple cheese pizza, right?
他们想吃三层奶酪披萨，对吧？
They want to go crazy.
他们想发疯。
And you as a leader and as a parent and as a friend need to say, "Hey, man.
作为领导者、父母和朋友，你需要说：“嘿，伙计。
You did good.
你做得很好。
That was awesome.
太棒了。
You had a great day."
你度过了美好的一天。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
"But let's start thinking a little bit about next week, too.
“但是我们也开始思考一下下周的事情。
How about we just have a few slices of pizza, right, as a reward?" So this is the same in any situation that you could be in interacting with other human beings.
我们只吃几片披萨作为奖励怎么样？”因此，在您与其他人互动的任何情况下，这都是一样的。
You want to be the person that kind of modulates the confidence and the ego, or the way you put it, the dopamine and the celebratory activities.
你想成为一个能够调节自信和自我的人，或者用你的话来说，调节多巴胺和庆祝活动。
So No matter who you are, and this goes with yourself as well.
所以无论你是谁，这也与你自己有关。
You do something, you have a success, and you say, "Oh, that's great.
你做了某事，你取得了成功，你会说：“哦，那太好了。
But all glory is fleeting, and I need to get back to work." And look, and do people go too far with that sometimes?
但所有的荣耀都是转瞬即逝的，我需要回去工作。”看看，人们有时会做得太过分吗？
Yes, absolutely.
是的，绝对是。
Sometimes people, they don't stop and celebrate at all, and those are the kind of people, I think, that get burned out eventually because they never say, "Hey, that was awesome.
有时人们根本不会停下来庆祝，我认为这些人最终会精疲力尽，因为他们从不说：“嘿，那太棒了。
We had a big win.
我们取得了巨大的胜利。
Cool.
酷。
High five." They don't even say that.
高五。”他们甚至不这么说。
So I think, as a leader, as a friend, as a parent, as a spouse, you want to be able to modulate that, help modulate that.
所以我认为，作为一个领导者，作为一个朋友，作为一个父母，作为一个配偶，你希望能够调节它，帮助调节它。
Don't shut it down.
不要关闭它。
Your kid walks off the wrestling mat for a high five, and you say, "You could've won by more." No, I'm not talking about that.
你的孩子从摔跤垫上走下来，获得了高五分，你说：“你本来可以赢更多。”不，我不是在谈论这个。
Or your kid walks off the mat after losing, you say, "You got what you deserve." No. You've got to be the counter, the counterweight to the emotions that other people have.
或者你的孩子输了之后走下垫子，你说，“你得到了你应得的。”不。你必须成为其他人情绪的制衡者。
And I think that when you're doing a good job as a leader, as a friend, as a spouse, as a whatever, you're doing a good job as a counterweight.
我认为，当你作为一个领导者、作为一个朋友、作为一个配偶或者其他什么人做得很好时，你就是在作为平衡者方面做得很好。
I think that's a good way to look at it.
我认为这是一个很好的看待它的方式。
You want to provide some balance for people to make sure that they don't get out of control.
您希望为人们提供一些平衡，以确保他们不会失控。
And you notice when people have a downfall, it's normally because they've surrounded themselves with people that there's no counter to, there's no counterbalance.
你会注意到，当人们情绪低落时，通常是因为他们周围都是无法抗拒、无法平衡的人。
If you were my best friend and I went out drinking last night and had a great time and partied all night and met a girl, and you're like, "Heck yeah, let's do it again tonight." Eventually, where are we going to be?
如果你是我最好的朋友，我昨晚出去喝酒，玩得很开心，整晚都在聚会，还认识了一个女孩，你会说，“哎呀，今晚我们再做一次吧。”最终，我们要去哪里？
We're going to be in the gutter somewhere.
我们将会在某处的阴沟里。
But if you say, "Hey, dude, that was awesome, but hey, remember, we got school on Monday." Right?
但如果你说，“嘿，伙计，那太棒了，但是嘿，记住，我们周一上学。”正确的？
And you kind of pull me back.
你有点把我拉了回来。
We've got to find balance in life and ourselves, and then we've got to, as much as we can, provide balance for other people because people are emotional and they get caught up in what they're doing, and you want to keep people balanced.
我们必须在生活和我们自己中找到平衡，然后我们必须尽我们所能，为其他人提供平衡，因为人们是情绪化的，他们会陷入自己正在做的事情中，而你想让人们保持平衡。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think one of the reasons people are really drawn to your message, and I put myself in that category.
我认为这是人们真正被你的信息所吸引的原因之一，我将自己归入这一类。
I remember 2014 was a very different picture for me.
我记得 2014 年对我来说是一个非常不同的景象。
It doesn't really matter what the contour was, but things were working, but they weren't working the way I wanted them to.
轮廓是什么并不重要，但一切都在工作，但它们没有按照我想要的方式工作。
And I remember arriving at your content first through the Tim Ferriss podcast, then eventually the Jocko Willink podcast, Joe Rogan podcast.
我记得首先是通过 Tim Ferriss 播客，然后最终是 Jocko Willink 播客和 Joe Rogan 播客来了解您的内容。
Those are the big two ones that kind of introduced me to you and your content.
这两件事让我认识了您和您的内容。
And it was really a case of, at the time, I didn't have a lot of friends that were doing similar things to me or that matched my daily routines in a way that I could kind of synergize with in this way.
这确实是一个例子，当时，我没有很多朋友在做与我类似的事情，或者以一种我可以以这种方式协同的方式与我的日常生活相匹配。
I think one reason why you are so helpful to people is that not everybody has these friends.
我认为你对人们如此有帮助的原因之一是并不是每个人都有这些朋友。
You can have the friend that's like, "Let's go out and tie one on again." A lot of people don't even have that friend, or they have a friend, but they're not really close with that person.
你可以有这样的朋友，“我们出去再系上一条吧。”很多人甚至没有那个朋友，或者他们有朋友，但他们与那个人并不是很亲密。
There's some ideas nowadays about 80% of males don't have a close friend that they could call.
现在有一些想法，大约 80% 的男性没有可以打电话的亲密朋友。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I'm guessing girls and women feel the same, too.
我猜女孩和女人也有同样的感觉。
That a lot of stuff is superficial, and there's a lot of communication, but not a lot of connection, right?
很多东西都是表面的，有很多沟通，但没有很多联系，对吗？
And so I think that you and a few other people in the, let's call it social media public-facing space, serve as archetypes of the friend that's going to tell you when you're up, "Great, but let's clamp it after a while." Or that when you're down, "Let's get going, and here's how you get going." And so I do want to highlight that because I think it's really important and it's but one reason why people are drawn to your message and the message of some other people who are out there trying to do similar things.
所以我认为你和其他一些人，让我们称之为面向公众的社交媒体空间，作为朋友的原型，当你起床时，他们会告诉你，“太好了，但让我们过一会儿就结束它。”或者当你情绪低落时，“让我们继续前进，这就是你如何继续前进。”所以我确实想强调这一点，因为我认为这非常重要，这只是人们被你的信息以及其他一些试图做类似事情的人的信息所吸引的原因之一。
But you in particular, because, yes, you have this military background, very intense military background, wartime background, but also you bring it into the daily routines that certainly apply to everybody.
但你尤其如此，因为，是的，你有这种军事背景，非常强烈的军事背景，战时背景，但你也把它带入了肯定适用于每个人的日常生活中。
Most everybody can access non-heated water, right?
大多数人都可以使用非热水，对吗？
One would hope.
人们会希望。
There's another dimension to this that I want to just bring up and get your reflections on as it relates to military work, school, relationship, family, et cetera, which is this somewhat counterintuitive idea, but then once you hear it, it makes perfect sense, which is that even though the catecholamines are responsible for drive and that that's what we're really about when we're forward center of mass, and we have to control the level, the intensity of the candle, and the level of the oil.
我想提出另一个维度，让你们思考一下，因为它与军事工作、学校、人际关系、家庭等有关，这是一个有点违反直觉的想法，但一旦你听到它，它就完全有道理了，那就是，即使儿茶酚胺负责驱动，而这就是我们在质心前进时真正要做的，我们必须控制水平、蜡烛的强度和油的水平。
And I don't know what those actually map to exactly.
我不知道那些实际上到底映射到什么。
We could probably figure it out if we really parsed it, but that's the idea here, the analogy.
如果我们真正解析它，我们可能会弄清楚它，但这就是这里的想法，类比。
In a kind of surprising way, we know that for sure one way to restore levels of motivation, drive, enthusiasm, and to some degree confidence that things could be different, is through deep rest.
我们以一种令人惊讶的方式知道，恢复动力、干劲、热情以及在某种程度上对事情可能会有所不同的信心的一种方法肯定是通过深度休息。
Things like sleep, right?
比如睡觉之类的，对吧？
When things are really, really hard, when kids are just like, "Ah!" They're falling apart.
当事情真的非常困难时，当孩子们就像“啊！”他们正在分崩离析。
It's like you put them to sleep, they wake up, and they're delightful.
就像你让他们入睡，他们醒来，然后他们很高兴。
They're running around in their pajamas when they're little, and a teenager wakes up after a good night's sleep, and they might be a little surly, but we're back.
他们小时候穿着睡衣到处跑，十几岁的孩子在睡了一夜之后醒来，他们可能有点脾气暴躁，但我们回来了。
Adults are like this.
大人都是这样的。
The world is falling apart.
世界正在分崩离析。
You go to sleep, wake up.
你去睡觉，醒来。
"Okay, I might be able to manage this," kind of mindset.
“好吧，我也许能处理好这个”，这种心态。
So sleep, and then the other one is we know that play, the kind of physical activity or mental activity where it might be a little competitive, but the stakes are low, and it's really more about connection with the activity or connection with somebody else.
所以，睡觉，然后另一个是我们知道的游戏，一种身体活动或精神活动，它可能有点竞争性，但风险很低，而且它实际上更多的是与活动的联系或与其他人的联系。
Like we're going to play a game of whatever.
就像我们要玩什么游戏一样。
I won't play chess with Lex because he'll kick my ass.
我不会和莱克斯下棋，因为他会踢我的屁股。
I won't do jujitsu with either of you because you'll beat me up, both of you, kindly, but you'll do it.
我不会和你们一起练柔术，因为你们会打败我，你们俩都好心，但你们会做的。
But if we were to play a game, it's just us, yeah, we might be a little competitive, but the stakes are low, right?
但如果我们要玩游戏，那就只有我们了，是的，我们可能会有点竞争力，但赌注很低，对吧？
We know that play and social connection and sleep are basically the reservoir or the location that you go to refill the oil in the candle every single time.
我们知道，玩耍、社交联系和睡眠基本上是你每次去给蜡烛加油的地方。
And so for you, where do those things play into your routine?
那么对你来说，这些事情在你的日常生活中扮演什么角色呢？
You mentioned you can go hard all day, and then in the evening, is it dinner with family, typically, if you're at home?
你提到你可以努力一整天，然后到了晚上，如果你在家的话，通常是和家人一起吃晚饭吗？
And what does that look like?
那是什么样子的？
I know we're kind of parsing into-- I don't want to carve into your personal life too deeply.
我知道我们正在分析——我不想太深入地融入你的个人生活。
Obviously, there are boundaries there, but what does that look like?
显然，那里是有界限的，但那是什么样子的呢？
Is it everyone at the table, phones away, and you're talking about the day?
是不是餐桌上的每个人都在打电话，而你却在谈论这一天？
Or is it Yeah.
或者是是啊。
Share with us a little bit about what that looks like, because I think it is an important contour to what you're about and what we're talking about that most people just don't have a window into.
请与我们分享一下它的样子，因为我认为这是您所讨论的内容以及我们正在讨论的内容的重要轮廓，而大多数人只是没有机会了解。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah.
是的。
So, first of all, just the refilling the tank with games, that's what jujitsu is, right?
所以，首先，只是用游戏来补充能量，这就是柔术，对吧？
You're going to go and you're going to have social connection with people, you're going to talk to people that you know, you're going to joke about whatever, then you're going to roll, you're going to have a good time rolling, you're going to get a little sweat on, you're going to feel good, then you're going to high five.
你会去，你会和人们建立社交联系，你会和你认识的人交谈，你会开任何玩笑，然后你会滚，你会玩得很开心，你会出一点汗，你会感觉很好，然后你会达到高五。
There's huge...
有巨大的...
That's there.
就在那里。
And your brain is kind of off when you're training jujitsu.
当你训练柔术时，你的大脑会有点不正常。
At a certain level, you're not going to be thinking anymore.
到了一定程度，你就不会再思考了。
Same thing with surfing.
冲浪也是如此。
You go surfing and you catch a wave, you're not thinking about, "Oh, I need to put my balance over here." No, it's happening and you're having a good time.
你去冲浪，抓住了波浪，你不会想，“哦，我需要把平衡放在这里。”不，它正在发生，而且你玩得很开心。
So, I would say that restoration for me comes from those two things, for sure.
所以，我想说，对我来说，恢复肯定来自这两件事。
And then, yeah, my wife and my kids when I get home.
然后，是的，当我回到家时，我的妻子和孩子们。
My kids are older now and they're out of the house, except for one.
我的孩子们现在长大了，除了其中一个之外，他们都离开了家。
And when I was in the Navy, when they were young, I wasn't around at all.
当我在海军服役时，当他们还年轻的时候，我根本不在场。
We would rarely have dinner together because I was gone, coming home late, you're working all the time.
我们很少一起吃晚饭，因为我不在，回家很晚，你一直在工作。
You can never get all your work done.
你永远不可能完成所有的工作。
I'm training jujitsu.
我正在训练柔术。
We rarely ate dinner as a family when I was in the teams.
当我在球队的时候，我们一家人很少吃晚饭。
And now, when I'm home and we can eat together, for sure.
现在，当我回到家时，我们当然可以一起吃饭。
My daughter that's still at home, we sit out there and eat dinner and talk about just normal things that people talk about, like how to conduct a night ambush or...
我女儿还在家里，我们坐在外面吃晚饭，谈论人们谈论的正常事情，比如如何进行夜间伏击或……
No, I'm just kidding.
不，我只是开玩笑。
No, just talk about normal daily things and what's going on and...
不，只是谈论正常的日常事物以及正在发生的事情......
My daughter, she's 13 right now, and she talks to me about all kinds of stuff.
我女儿现在 13 岁了，她和我谈论各种各样的事情。
And it's awesome.
这太棒了。
Yeah, I'm definitely enjoying that aspect of being around more than I was when I was in the teams and we didn't have dinner.
是的，我确实比在球队中并且我们没有吃晚饭时更享受这种相处的感觉。
It didn't happen.
它没有发生。
So, I would take my kids to jujitsu.
所以，我会带我的孩子去柔术。
I taught jujitsu classes when I could when I was in the teams.
当我在队里的时候，我尽可能地教柔术课。
Would do workouts with them in the morning if I had time, on the weekends for sure, stuff like that with my kids.
如果我有时间的话，我会在早上和他们一起锻炼，当然在周末，和我的孩子们一起锻炼。
That's kind of what I did.
我就是这么做的。
But now, yeah, my wife is awesome and she is a great cook now, because when we first got married, it was questionable.
但现在，是的，我的妻子很棒，她现在是一位出色的厨师，因为当我们第一次结婚时，这是值得怀疑的。
I just was harassing her about this the other day.
前几天我刚刚还因为这事骚扰她。
She's an unbelievable cook now, and it's awesome.
她现在是一位令人难以置信的厨师，这太棒了。
And when we first met, by her own admission, she will tell you she was not...
当我们第一次见面时，她自己承认，她会告诉你她不是……
She's from England, right?
她来自英国，对吧？
And so they're just not-
所以他们只是不-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
...
...
cooking what we're liking.
烹饪我们喜欢的东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No. No, the food over there, at least when I was growing up and the few times I made it over there, the food was pretty dreadful.
不不，那边的食物，至少在我成长的过程中，我在那儿做过几次，食物非常难吃。
There were some exceptions to that, but...
有一些例外，但是......
And they drank a lot over there, so-
他们在那里喝了很多酒，所以——
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I've been to some scientific meetings over there where they would start with sherry in the afternoon-
我参加过那里的一些科学会议，下午他们会以雪利酒开始——
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Oh, yeah
哦，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and then beer after work.
然后下班后喝啤酒。
It was outrageous.
这太令人愤慨了。
The amount of alcohol intake was just absurd.
酒精摄入量简直是荒谬的。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sorry, Brits.
对不起，英国人。
I did an episode on alcohol and a lot of people were angry about that episode because it basically said once you get past two drinks a week, you're starting to head into territory that can deplete your health, so you got to do a lot of other things to offset it.
我做了一集关于酒精的节目，很多人对此感到愤怒，因为它基本上说，一旦你每周喝了两杯酒，你就开始进入可能耗尽你健康的领域，所以你必须做很多其他事情来抵消它。
But they drink a lot.
但他们喝很多酒。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah.
是的。
The Brits drink a lot.
英国人喝酒很多。
I've spent time over there with my father-in-law-
我和我的岳父在那里度过了一段时间-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
...
...
my brother-in-law, and we definitely drank a lot.
我姐夫，我们肯定喝了很多酒。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
So, I'm glad I don't live there and had to drink with them.
所以，我很高兴我不住在那里，不得不和他们一起喝酒。
I'm glad I don't have to drink with them all the time.
我很高兴我不用一直和他们一起喝酒。
I'd probably be dead.
我可能已经死了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You were straight edge growing up, right?
你从小到大都是直率的，对吧？
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah.
是的。
When I was a kid, and then when I joined the Navy, I started drinking.
当我还是个孩子的时候，当我加入海军时，我就开始喝酒。
That's part of the culture that I bought into and I wanted to be a good SEAL, and I'm looking around at the guys that were considered good SEALs, "Oh, so we're drinking?
这是我所接受的文化的一部分，我想成为一名优秀的海豹突击队队员，我环顾四周那些被认为是优秀海豹突击队员的人，“哦，所以我们在喝酒？
Okay, that's what we're doing." And that's what I did.
好吧，这就是我们正在做的事情。”这就是我所做的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you're telling me-
所以你是在告诉我——
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
I think, looking back now, I didn't think of it as a big deal at the time.
我想，现在回想起来，当时我并没有觉得这有什么大不了的。
Well, first of all, even when I was growing up and I didn't drink and didn't smoke, didn't do drugs, I wasn't a guy putting an X on my hand.
好吧，首先，即使在我成长的过程中，我不喝酒、不抽烟、不吸毒，我也不是一个在手上画“X”的人。
Although my friends and I, we all didn't drink, didn't smoke.
虽然我和我的朋友，我们都不喝酒，也不抽烟。
So we definitely, look, I was listening to Minor Threat when I was a kid.
所以我们肯定，看，我小时候就听过《轻微威胁》。
I get it.
我得到它。
But I wasn't a guy running around telling everyone I was straight edge.
但我并不是那种到处跑来跑去告诉大家我很直率的人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
But I was on that path, for sure.
但我确实走在这条路上。
And then when I got in the SEAL teams, it's like, okay, this is a different culture.
然后当我加入海豹突击队时，我感觉，好吧，这是一种不同的文化。
I'm not used to it.
我不习惯。
And I didn't really even understand what drinking was.
我什至根本不明白喝酒是什么。
I never had been drunk.
我从来没有喝醉过。
So, got in the SEAL teams, I was like, "Okay, well, once I turn 21, okay, hey, these guys, we're going to have fun." And I kind of just, "Okay, that's what we're doing." And then I drank a ton while I was in the SEAL teams.
所以，加入海豹突击队后，我就想，“好吧，好吧，等我 21 岁了，好吧，嘿，这些家伙，我们就会玩得很开心。”我只是说，“好吧，这就是我们正在做的事情。”当我在海豹突击队时，我喝了很多酒。
And then as I then I retired from the SEAL teams and went out.
然后我就从海豹突击队退役并出去了。
We basically went to every bar that we would normally go to as SEALs.
我们基本上去了我们作为海豹队员通常会去的每个酒吧。
I think we closed out the night at the Pack Shores in OB, and went home that morning.
我想我们在 OB 的 Pack Shores 度过了一个愉快的夜晚，并于那天早上回家了。
I woke up the next morning, worked out, and then I just kind of stopped drinking.
第二天早上我醒来，锻炼身体，然后我就停止喝酒了。
And now I just don't really drink anymore.
现在我真的不再喝酒了。
So, that's that.
所以，就是这样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
When I had my lab in San Diego for five years, that's where my lab started, I definitely saw a lot of team guys in bars.
当我在圣地亚哥建立实验室五年时，这就是我的实验室开始的地方，我确实在酒吧里看到了很多团队成员。
You guys would come in and take over bars.
你们会进来并接管酒吧。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
These were literal takeovers.
这些都是名副其实的收购。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I wouldn't leave because I wouldn't give them the satisfaction, or me the dissatisfaction, but it was a little frustrating.
我不会离开，因为我不会让他们满意，也不会让我不满意，但这有点令人沮丧。
You're in there, you're having a decent time, and then just this enormous pack of team guys comes in, and it's sort of like, "All right, maybe it's time to close out the night."
你在那里，度过了一段愉快的时光，然后一大群团队成员进来了，这有点像，“好吧，也许是时候结束这个夜晚了。”
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah.
是的。
It's-
这是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sometimes.
有时。
I was friends with enough of them that...
我和他们中的很多人都是朋友，以至于......
But if you're not really a part of it, you're not really a part of it, and I always knew that and understood that.
但如果你不是真正的一部分，你就不是真正的一部分，我一直都知道并理解这一点。
One thing that- I think really comes through now especially, but throughout our discussion and all the things I've seen of you, and it gets me back to this thing that came up at the beginning I'd really like to return to, is that you seem to have a very strong sense of context and self.
我认为现在真正经历过的一件事尤其是，但在我们的讨论和我所看到的你的所有事情中，它让我回到了我真正想回到一开始就提到的事情，那就是你似乎有一种非常强烈的背景感和自我意识。
I'll just say it, I'm not a psychologist, I'm not here to play one, but what you just described was that, okay, in one context, it made sense to be straight edge.
我只想说，我不是心理学家，我来这里不是为了扮演心理学家，但你刚才所描述的是，好吧，在某种情况下，保持直率是有道理的。
You mentioned Minor Threat, great band, straight edge band.
你提到了轻微威胁、伟大的乐队、直边乐队。
But when it came time to you run around with your friends then and it made sense to be without alcohol or drugs or anything at that stage, and then you get into another context, it's like, "Okay, I can do this.
但当你和你的朋友一起到处跑的时候，在那个阶段不喝酒、不吸毒或任何东西是有意义的，然后你进入另一个环境，就像，“好吧，我可以做到这一点。
I can drink and still perform well and do all the things I need to do.
我可以喝酒，但仍然表现良好，做所有我需要做的事情。
And then when that closes out, I'm going to do something else." And some people are like that because they're kind of a chameleon, right?
然后当一切结束时，我会做别的事情。”有些人就是这样，因为他们是变色龙，对吗？
They're switching themselves depending on the context, and they're kind of getting accents when they're in one location or another.
他们会根据上下文切换自己，并且当他们在一个或另一个位置时，他们会带有口音。
But that's not you at all.
但那根本不是你。
I can tell with certainty that's not you at all, that there seems to be a very strong sense of self, so that when we have a sense of self that's firm, we can go into different contexts, we can even change our behavior, but we don't lose who we are, which means we can always return to it.
我可以肯定的告诉你，那根本不是你，似乎有一种非常强烈的自我意识，所以当我们有坚定的自我意识时，我们可以进入不同的情境，我们甚至可以改变我们的行为，但我们不会失去我们是谁，这意味着我们总是可以回到它。
The image in my mind is like, I've done a little bit of scuba diving, not a lot, but during some of the more advanced training for us, this wasn't SEAL training, of course, was following a line in the dark, like a night dive.
我脑海中的形象是，我做过一点水肺潜水，不是很多，但是在我们的一些更高级的训练中，这当然不是海豹突击队训练，而是在黑暗中沿着一条线走，就像夜间潜水一样。
And you're following a line, and sometimes you're navigating with tools, but sometimes you're following a line underwater.
你沿着一条线走，有时你用工具导航，但有时你在水下沿着一条线走。
And this idea that you can let go of that line, but you remember where it is, and you can return to it.
这个想法是你可以放弃那条线，但你记得它在哪里，并且你可以回到它。
And that's kind of how I imagine the sense of self, because in different contexts, most healthy people modify themselves a little bit.
这就是我想象的自我意识，因为在不同的环境下，大多数健康的人都会稍微改变自己。
We act differently at a wedding or a funeral than we do in class or out with our friends.
我们在婚礼或葬礼上的表现与在课堂上或与朋友外出时的表现不同。
Of course.
当然。
It's an important part of being a human, a functional human.
这是作为一个人、一个有功能的人的重要组成部分。
So it seems to me that from a pretty early stage, you had a pretty good sense of self.
所以在我看来，从很早的时候起，你就有很好的自我意识。
Now, I don't know if you sit in your room and meditate on who is Jocko Willink and touch that central cord of self.
现在，我不知道你是否坐在你的房间里冥想谁是乔科·威林克并触摸自我的中心绳索。
I'm guessing you don't.
我猜你不知道。
But as I say this, I have to ask, was there something in your upbringing, your parents, or was it just kind of how you always imagined yourself as like, "Yeah, this is who I am.
但当我这么说的时候，我不得不问，你的成长过程、你的父母是否有什么问题，或者你总是把自己想象成这样，“是的，这就是我。
No matter what happens around me, I kind of know who I am.
无论我周围发生什么，我都知道我是谁。
Even if I'm engaging in some of the behaviors that I might not do in another context, I know who I am." Because I actually think that many people do not have a very firm sense of self, or their sense of self is so rigid that they can only operate in this narrow trench of one domain of life, and they end up very isolated.
即使我做出了一些在其他情况下可能不会做的行为，我也知道我是谁。”因为我其实觉得很多人的自我意识不是很坚定，或者说自我意识太僵化，只能在一个生活领域的狭隘沟里运作，最后变得很孤立。
So I'd love for you to share with us what your recollections are, kind of like the first time you realized, kind of like, "Yeah, I'm good in a bunch of different places.
所以我希望你能与我们分享你的回忆，有点像你第一次意识到，有点像，“是的，我在很多不同的地方都很擅长。
I'm safe, or I'm whatever." Because I think this also relates to confidence.
我很安全，或者说我什么都没有。”因为我觉得这也和信心有关。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
I'm glad you are giving me the benefit of the doubt on going in the teams and being like, "Oh, hey, man, it looks like guys are drinking, and I haven't really drank before, and seems like these guys are having a good time.
我很高兴你在加入团队时给予我怀疑的好处，并且说，“哦，嘿，伙计，看起来伙计们正在喝酒，而我以前没有真正喝酒过，而且看起来这些家伙玩得很开心。
Let's go have a good time with these guys." And that's kind of what I did, right?
我们去和这些家伙一起度过愉快的时光吧。”这就是我所做的，对吧？
And I look at it now, and unfortunately for me, I look at alcohol now as just I've seen it destroy so many people that I've now kind of look at it and go, "Man, I don't think people should drink." And look, I get it.
我现在看着它，对我来说不幸的是，我现在看着酒精，因为我看到它摧毁了很多人，所以我现在看着它，然后说，“伙计，我认为人们不应该喝酒。”看，我明白了。
I'm kind of an example.
我就是一个例子。
I used to drink and go out and have a good time, and it wasn't that big of a deal.
我过去常常喝酒、出去玩得很开心，这没什么大不了的。
It didn't negatively impact me in some dramatic way.
它并没有以某种戏剧性的方式对我产生负面影响。
But I have so many friends that it is horrible for.
但我有这么多朋友，这对我来说太可怕了。
It is all but ruined their lives.
这几乎毁了他们的生活。
And it's totally legal, which is kind of bizarre.
而且这是完全合法的，这有点奇怪。
So I think that figuring that out when I look back, and the culture in the SEAL teams was very alcohol-centric.
所以我认为当我回顾过去时就会发现这一点，海豹突击队的文化非常以酒精为中心。
And part of that is because it's just like a fraternity is alcohol-centric, or a football team is, because you got a bunch of young dudes that are going to drink and have a good time.
部分原因是因为这就像兄弟会以酒精为中心，或者足球队以酒精为中心，因为你有一群年轻的家伙会喝酒并度过愉快的时光。
So it's just sort of a young dude kind of thing.
所以这只是一个年轻人的事情。
And unfortunately, it ends up ruining a lot of people's lives, and they make bad decisions, and they do stupid things, and it's just not good.
不幸的是，它最终毁了很多人的生活，他们做出了错误的决定，做了愚蠢的事情，这只是不好的。
And I think the culture is moving away from that a little bit in the SEAL teams.
我认为海豹突击队的文化正在远离这种文化。
My alcohol brief used to say, I used to tell my guys, "If you go out, you get a DUI, you get put in jail for a fight, you get hurt because you're doing something drunk, you just did Al-Qaeda's job for them.
我的酒精简报曾经说过，我曾经告诉我的伙计们，“如果你出去，你就会酒后驾车，你会因为打架而被关进监狱，你会因为喝醉了而受伤，你只是为他们做了基地组织的工作。
You just did Al-Qaeda's job.
你刚刚完成了基地组织的工作。
They want to take you off the battlefield, and you just took yourself off the battlefield.
他们想把你带离战场，而你却把自己带离了战场。
You can't go on deployment now." And that would always hit guys.
你现在不能继续部署。”这总是会打击男人。
And I think that the SEAL team's kind of leaning in that direction more, realizing the negativity of alcohol.
我认为海豹突击队更倾向于这个方向，认识到酒精的负面影响。
I wish I would've realized that earlier.
我希望我能早点意识到这一点。
I wish I would've been a better leader and recognized that at an earlier stage, and recognized that just because I was kind of getting away with it, meaning I didn't wake up in the morning going, "Man, I can't wait to get drunk." I never really had that feeling.
我希望我能成为一个更好的领导者，并在早期阶段认识到这一点，并认识到这一点只是因为我侥幸逃脱了惩罚，这意味着我早上醒来时没有说：“伙计，我迫不及待地想喝醉。”我从来没有真正有过那种感觉。
I wish I would've realized that there's other guys that do.
我希望我能意识到还有其他人这样做。
And there's people that can operate and be functional, and it doesn't really impact their lives, but there's a lot of people that don't.
有些人可以操作并发挥作用，这并没有真正影响他们的生活，但也有很多人不能。
And I don't think it's worth the dice roll to start drinking.
而且我认为不值得为了开始喝酒而掷骰子。
I just don't think it's worth the dice roll.
我只是认为不值得掷骰子。
What do you get out of it?
你从中得到什么？
So I think that overall, that's why when I think about alcohol, I just think about all the lives that it's ruined, and I don't like it.
所以我认为总的来说，这就是为什么当我想到酒精时，我只想到它毁掉的所有生活，我不喜欢它。
And I wish I would've done a better job of saying, "You know what?
我希望我能更好地说：“你知道吗？
This is probably not good, and we shouldn't do this." And unfortunately, I didn't.
这可能不好，我们不应该这样做。”不幸的是，我没有。
And I try and convey that message as much as I can now.
我现在尽力传达这一信息。
And it did bring me back to my roots, because when I was a kid, it was like alcohol is weak and You look at these guys, they don't know what they're doing, they're acting like idiots.
它确实让我回到了我的根源，因为当我还是个孩子的时候，就像酒精很弱，你看看这些人，他们不知道自己在做什么，他们表现得像白痴一样。
I'm not going to be like that.
我不会那样的。
And so, as I got older, once I got on the SEAL teams, I went back to that.
所以，随着年龄的增长，一旦我加入了海豹突击队，我又回到了原来的状态。
As far as where I became me, I just actually have to give a lot of credit to the music that I grew up listening to and the attitude that we had back then.
就我成为的我而言，我实际上必须对我从小听的音乐和我们当时的态度给予很大的信任。
Listening to hardcore music, being able to stand up against what other people were saying, which is what you're doing when you're in that scene, and the whole DIY nature of it.
听硬核音乐，能够反抗别人所说的话，这就是你在那个场景中所做的事情，以及它的整个 DIY 本质。
Hey, we can just do this ourselves.
嘿，我们可以自己做。
We can just make this happen for ourselves.
我们可以自己实现这一点。
We don't need anybody else.
我们不需要其他人。
We can do this.
我们可以做到这一点。
And that hardcore attitude and sticking by your friends and standing up and getting in fights and like, if that's what you're going to do, that's my attitude.
那种顽固的态度，坚持你的朋友，站起来，参与战斗，如果这就是你要做的，那就是我的态度。
And I got interviewed for a documentary that they're making about Harley Flanagan and the Cro-Mags.
我接受了他们制作的一部关于哈雷·弗拉纳根和 Cro-Mags 的纪录片的采访。
And when I was a kid, and actually through my whole life, that music is the soundtrack to my life.
当我还是个孩子的时候，实际上在我的一生中，音乐就是我生活的配乐。
And so I always would have that music running in my head.
所以我的脑海里总是会响起那段音乐。
But to your question, I had something in me that when I heard that music for the first time, I was like, "Okay, here it is." I hear the Beatles, I hear the Grateful Dead, I hear the Rolling Stones, I hear the whoever.
但对于你的问题，我内心有一种东西，当我第一次听到那首音乐时，我想，“好吧，就在这里。”我听到披头士乐队的声音，我听到感恩而死乐队的声音，我听到滚石乐队的声音，我听到任何人的声音。
And you go, "Okay, that's fine." But when I heard hardcore music for the first time, when I heard the Cro-Mags, when I heard Agnostic Front, when I heard the Bad Brains, that was just like, it was part of me already.
然后你就说：“好吧，没关系。”但当我第一次听到硬核音乐时，当我听到 Cro-Mags 时，当我听到 Agnostic Front 时，当我听到 Bad Brains 时，那感觉就像，它已经是我的一部分了。
And then it was the attitude, and again you can listen to my podcast with Harley Flanagan.
然后是态度，你可以再次收听我与 Harley Flanagan 的播客。
The way I viewed Harley Flanagan, the way I viewed the Cro-Mags, was not the way they actually were.
我看待哈雷·弗拉纳根的方式，我看待 Cro-Mags 的方式，并不是它们实际的样子。
Harley was doing drugs, horrible drugs.
哈利吸毒，可怕的毒品。
He was on heroin, everything else.
他吸食海洛因，吸食其他一切。
But his image was straight edge, kind of spiritual.
但他的形象是直截了当的，有点精神。
They had all that stuff going on, and I thought, "Okay, well, that's who they are." But I didn't know.
他们发生了所有这些事情，我想，“好吧，好吧，他们就是这样。”但我不知道。
I'm like a kid living in the woods in Connecticut.
我就像一个住在康涅狄格州树林里的孩子。
I'm just kind of hearing what I'm hearing.
我只是听到我所听到的。
Listen to the lyrics, listen to the lyrics of Minor Threat, listen to the lyrics and you go, "Okay, this stuff, I agree with this stuff." And I just think that that set a datum in my head of being okay with being outside, being okay with saying no, being okay with being a rebel, being okay with not going along with what everyone else is doing.
听歌词，听《轻微威胁》的歌词，听歌词，然后你就会说，“好吧，这个东西，我同意这个东西。”我只是认为这在我的脑海中设定了一个基准，即可以接受户外活动，可以接受拒绝，可以接受叛逆，可以接受不跟随其他人所做的事情。
And that became very important when I was in the military and I looked at what leadership might be telling me to do and might think to myself, "Hey, that doesn't seem like a good idea." And having the wherewithal to say, "Hey, boss, I'm not sure this is a good idea." Not to be a jerk about it, but just to say, "There might be a better way to get this done.
当我在军队时，这一点变得非常重要，我看着领导可能会告诉我做什么，并且可能会想，“嘿，这似乎不是一个好主意。”并且有足够的能力说：“嘿，老板，我不确定这是个好主意。”我并不是要开玩笑，只是想说：“可能有更好的方法来完成这件事。
What do you think of this?" Or, "Hey, boss, can I ask you a question about that?" So I think if I had to trace it back, having Black Flag, "My War Side 2" on my record player for like a year and a half straight, that's going to leave a mark, man.
你对此有何看法？”或者，“嘿，老板，我可以问你一个问题吗？”所以我想，如果我必须追溯它，在我的电唱机上连续播放《黑旗》“My War Side 2”大约一年半，那将会留下痕迹，伙计。
And I think it left a mark on me.
我认为它在我身上留下了印记。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love what you just said.
我喜欢你刚才说的话。
And when I say love, I really mean it, because as we both know, we share a common love for certain music, in particular Minor Threat and some stuff from the punk rock scene.
当我说爱时，我是认真的，因为我们都知道，我们对某些音乐有着共同的热爱，特别是《Minor Threat》和朋克摇滚界的一些东西。
In particular for me, the Northeast punk rock scene, the Bruisers, Al Barr from The Bruisers.
特别是对我来说，东北朋克摇滚界的布鲁斯乐队（The Bruisers），来自布鲁斯乐队（The Bruisers）的阿尔·巴尔（Al Barr）。
Now people know him as the lead singer for the Dropkick Murphys, but before that it was The Bruisers.
现在人们知道他是 Dropkick Murphys 乐队的主唱，但在此之前他是 The Bruisers 乐队的主唱。
And we run the risk of going deep down a rabbit hole of music that most people may or may not be familiar with, although most people have heard of the Dropkicks.
我们冒着深入音乐兔子洞的风险，大多数人可能熟悉也可能不熟悉，尽管大多数人都听说过 Dropkicks。
But yeah, I'm right there with you.
但是，是的，我就在你身边。
I remember the first time hearing Stiff Little Fingers or Rancid and even Bouncing Souls, right, for New Jersey.
我记得第一次听到新泽西州的《Stiff Little Fingers》或《Rancid》，甚至《Bouncing Souls》，对吧。
Not even Bouncing Souls, sorry.
抱歉，连弹跳灵魂都没有。
Sorry, Brian and Greg.
对不起，布莱恩和格雷格。
No, The Bouncing Souls and going, "Yes, that.
不，是《弹跳的灵魂》，然后说道：“是的，就是那个。
That's me.
那就是我。
That's it." But as you said, it was already kind of in you.
就是这样。”但正如你所说，它已经在你身上了。
It's like a recognition.
这就像一种认可。
And I bring this up, and I want to highlight it, not because we share this, although I do find that to be an amazing kinship that we felt right away, and it was like we could probably riff for 25 hours just on that.
我提出这一点，我想强调这一点，并不是因为我们分享这一点，尽管我确实发现这是一种令人惊叹的亲缘关系，我们立刻就感受到了，就好像我们可能就这样即兴演奏 25 个小时。
But it brings me back to this idea that certainly is not my idea.
但这让我回到了这个想法，这当然不是我的想法。
Actually, the first time I heard about it was from Robert Greene, who wrote the book "Mastery" and some important writings.
事实上，我第一次听说它是从罗伯特·格林那里听说的，他写了《精通》一书和一些重要的著作。
What was it?
那是什么？
I forget how many laws of power, but those books.
我忘记了多少力量法则，但那些书。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Robert Greene.
罗伯特·格林。
"Mastery" is actually a book that I highly recommend people read because it talks about mentorship and finding mentors and the fact that we're supposed to break up and move on from mentors, and that mentors aren't always people that we know or that know us, et cetera.
《精通》实际上是一本我强烈推荐人们阅读的书，因为它谈论了指导和寻找导师，以及我们应该与导师分手并继续前进的事实，而导师并不总是我们认识的人或认识我们的人，等等。
Amazing book, really.
很棒的书，真的。
But he was the first person I ever heard describe this idea that if we think back long enough, there's some seed moment.
但他是我听过的第一个描述这个想法的人：如果我们回想足够长的时间，就会有一些种子时刻。
Maybe it was shopping for the pants, it sounds like it was, but also music where you see something and it's like, "Yes, that's me and I'm that." And then that becomes a sort of soundtrack or visual image or something for your life that you carry forward with you.
也许是为了买裤子，听起来是这样，但也可能是因为音乐，当你看到一些东西时，你会觉得，“是的，那就是我，我就是那样。”然后它就变成了一种配乐或视觉图像，或者是你生活中可以随身携带的东西。
The neuroscientist in me wants to say that that is the first time that we really tap into this dopamine system in a way that is unique to us.
作为一名神经科学家，我想说，这是我们第一次以一种独特的方式真正利用多巴胺系统。
Because every child responds to food with a little bit of dopamine when we're hungry, responds to warmth when we're cold, responds to a warm, dry diaper after we just wet ourselves, which we all did.
因为当我们饥饿时，每个孩子都会对带有一点多巴胺的食物做出反应；当我们寒冷时，会对温暖做出反应；当我们尿湿后，会对温暖干燥的尿布做出反应，我们都曾这样做过。
I don't know, maybe Jocko, you changed your own diapers .
我不知道，也许乔科，你自己换尿布了。
But I'm guessing that someone changed your diaper at one point.
但我猜有人曾经给你换过尿布。
Not an image path we need to go down.
不是我们需要走的图像路径。
But the idea is that we all have these universal sources of having our needs met, going from discomfort to comfort and back again, which is basically childhood.
但我们的想法是，我们都有这些普遍的来源来满足我们的需求，从不适到舒适，然后再回来，这基本上就是童年。
But at some point, something comes along that we really feel like is unique to us.
但在某些时候，一些我们真正觉得对我们来说是独一无二的东西出现了。
And it may be the thing that everyone else likes.
这可能是其他人都喜欢的事情。
Maybe it's Top 40 or whatever it is.
也许是前 40 名或其他什么。
Maybe it's the shoe that everyone's wearing and that seems good.
也许这是每个人都穿的鞋子，而且看起来不错。
But I do think that there are certain people who are kind of 10 or 20 or maybe even 180 degrees off from what everyone else likes, and they're like That thing is what's really cool, and it's a felt thing.
但我确实认为有些人与其他人喜欢的东西有 10 或 20 甚至 180 度的偏差，他们觉得那东西真的很酷，而且是一种感觉得到的东西。
And so along the lines of felt things as opposed to things that everyone values, what are your sources of motivation?
因此，沿着感受到的事物而不是每个人都重视的事物的思路，你的动力来源是什么？
And I'm going to guess that some of them are internal, and we could point to head or we could point to heart, doesn't really matter.
我猜其中一些是内在的，我们可以指向头部，也可以指向心灵，这并不重要。
But when you think of sources of motivation, do you have a palette of them that you can dip into?
但是，当您想到动机的来源时，您是否有一个可以利用的调色板？
Do you even feel the need to dip into them, or is it really just all about action steps throughout your day?
您是否觉得有必要深入研究它们，或者这实际上只是您一天中的行动步骤？
Or if I can even venture into the somewhat harder stories that I've heard you talk about, do you sometimes think back and like, "Listen, I'm going to do this because there are a bunch of guys that are dead now that can't, and so I'm going to do it because I can." What are the paints on your motivation palette, if you will?
或者，如果我什至可以冒险尝试一下我听你谈论过的更难的故事，你是否有时会回想起来，然后说，“听着，我会这样做，因为现在有一群人已经死了，他们不能这样做，所以我会这样做，因为我可以。”如果你愿意的话，你的动机调色板上有哪些颜料？
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Well, you probably heard me say that motivation isn't something that I am going to count on because it's just an emotion that's going to come and go, and it's just like feeling happy.
嗯，你可能听我说过，我不会指望动力，因为它只是一种来来去去的情绪，就像感到快乐一样。
You feel happy right now, maybe you won't feel happy in 15 minutes.
你现在感到快乐，也许15分钟后你就不会感到快乐了。
You feel sad now, maybe you won't feel sad in 15 minutes.
你现在感到悲伤，也许15分钟后你就不会感到悲伤了。
You feel motivated right now, you might not feel motivated in 15 minutes.
你现在就感到有动力，15 分钟后你可能就不再有动力了。
Therefore, I can't rely on it, so I'm not going to put any money on just being motivated because it doesn't really matter to me.
因此，我不能依赖它，所以我不会把任何钱花在激励上，因为这对我来说并不重要。
So the daily actions that I take aren't from motivation, they're just from discipline.
所以我每天采取的行动不是出于动机，而是出于纪律。
Like I said earlier, I'm not going to get up and go through some big debate about, well, do I really feel like doing this?
就像我之前说的，我不会站起来进行一些大辩论，比如，我真的想这样做吗？
No, I don't feel like doing this, but it doesn't matter, so I'm just going to go do it.
不，我不想这样做，但是没关系，所以我就去做吧。
Now, if we start to look at sort of a broader movement through life and continuing to try and move forward and move on.
现在，如果我们开始关注生活中更广泛的运动，并继续尝试前进并继续前进。
My buddy Seth died, and he was the Delta platoon commander in Task Unit Bruiser.
我的好友塞斯死了，他是布鲁斯特遣队的三角洲排长。
And he died in 2017, and it was in a parachute accident.
他于2017年死于一次跳伞事故。
And it's definitely unexpected.
这绝对是出乎意料的。
And also he'd already been through multiple deployments, was with us, with me in the Battle of Ramadi.
而且他已经经历过多次部署，在拉马迪战役中与我们一起。
He then went back into Sadr City and led a ton of very dangerous operations, and then he did other deployments and was kind of done with his deployments.
然后他回到萨德尔城并领导了大量非常危险的行动，然后他进行了其他部署并完成了他的部署。
Kind of done.
有点完成了。
And now he's just talking about when he's going to retire, and he's a couple years away from retirement and I'm talking about, "Hey, we're going to work together again." And it all seems like we're on a pretty good path to just move forward, and then he ends up dying in a parachute accident.
现在他只是在谈论他什么时候退休，他距离退休还有几年，我说，“嘿，我们要再次合作。”看起来我们正走在一条很好的前进道路上，然后他最终在一次跳伞事故中丧生。
And he's a guy that was really just kind of, you're not going to be able to replace any...
他是一个真正的人，你无法取代任何......
There's a uniqueness to him that is you're not going to find.
他有一种你无法发现的独特之处。
And I've got some stuff that he wrote.
我还有一些他写的东西。
He was an incredible writer, and I'll try and write something like him.
他是一位令人难以置信的作家，我会尝试写一些像他一样的东西。
I can't do it because he had a bigger vocabulary and a more articulate way of writing, and so I can't write anything as well as he wrote it.
我做不到，因为他的词汇量更大，写作方式更清晰，所以我写不出他写的那么好。
He was incredible at guitar.
他的吉他演奏令人难以置信。
He played guitar, played ukulele, like sick, like an incredible at playing guitar.
他弹吉他，弹尤克里里，就像生病一样，弹吉他的技术令人难以置信。
And he's a total knuckle dragger, like a total meathead knuckle dragger.
他是一个十足的指节拖拉者，就像一个十足的笨蛋指节拖拉者。
His nickname was Unfrozen Caveman because he just looked like a big caveman, and yet he spoke French and could recite French poetry and was really good at learning languages.
他的昵称是“不冻穴居人”，因为他看上去就像一个大个子穴居人，但他会说法语，还能背诵法语诗歌，非常擅长学习语言。
And he was an artist, and he had, do you know what synesthesia is?
他是一位艺术家，他有，你知道什么是联觉吗？
Do you know what that is?
你知道那是什么吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
A merging of the senses, so people-
感官的融合，所以人们——
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that can see colors and-
可以看到颜色并且-
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
So he didn't know what it was, but-
所以他不知道那是什么，但是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sorry, see colors.
抱歉，请看颜色。
I hope most people can see colors.
我希望大多数人都能看到颜色。
Sorry, that can hear colors and can associate particular colors with sound, with particular keys on the piano.
抱歉，它可以听到颜色，并且可以将特定颜色与声音以及钢琴上的特定琴键联系起来。
It's pretty rare.
这是相当罕见的。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Some people think they have it, but true synesthesics are pretty rare.
有些人认为他们有这种能力，但真正的联觉很少见。
But they don't have to fight for this trait.
但他们不必为这种特质而奋斗。
It just kind of emerges for them.
这对他们来说只是自然而然地出现了。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
He didn't know it, but one day he was talking to me and he was embarrassed to tell me.
他不知道，有一天他跟我说话，却不好意思告诉我。
He's like, "You know what's weird is when I think of numbers, I have colors in my head." And I go, "What do you mean?" He says, "Hollow was zero, and I remember seven is yellow." I don't remember any of them, but he just rattled off like one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine.
他说，“你知道奇怪的是，当我想到数字时，我脑子里就有颜色。”我说：“你什么意思？”他说：“空心是零，我记得七是黄色。”我不记得任何一个，但他只是喋喋不休地说一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九。
He says hollow, white, clear, all of, just rattled off these colors.
他说空心的、白色的、透明的，所有的，只是喋喋不休地说出这些颜色。
So he had that synesthesia, and it gave him some kind of weird ability to memorize numbers.
所以他有联觉，这给了他某种奇怪的记忆数字的能力。
So, he'd be in a bar and talk to some girl, and he'd say, "What's your number?" And he would know it for two years.
所以，他会在酒吧里和某个女孩聊天，他会说：“你的电话号码是多少？”他会在两年内知道这一点。
He would just know it.
他只会知道这一点。
And that also made him incredibly good at playing guitar because now the scale and the fretboard of a guitar, it's a mathematical thing that he has all in this weird coloration scenario going on.
这也使他非常擅长弹吉他，因为现在吉他的音阶和指板，这是他在这个奇怪的着色场景中拥有的所有数学东西。
So he's this guy and a very emotional guy.
所以他是一个非常情绪化的人。
A very emotional guy who would, I was talking earlier about being a balance for someone.
一个非常情绪化的人，我之前说过要成为某人的平衡。
I had to balance this dude out on a daily basis sometimes.
有时我不得不每天平衡这个家伙。
He'd be so mad about something.
他一定会因为某件事而生气。
One day he'd be, "I hate the teams.
有一天他会说，“我讨厌这些球队。
I hate all these guys." And I'd say, "Yeah, I get it, man." And the next day, "I'm never getting out of the teams." He would oscillate that bad.
我讨厌所有这些人。”我会说：“是的，我明白了，伙计。”第二天，“我永远不会离开球队。”他会摇摆得那么厉害。
And I would tell him, "Hey bro, you're oscillating again." And just would do anything.
我会告诉他，“嘿兄弟，你又开始摇摆不定了。”并且什么都愿意做。
And he loved his guys and would do anything for his guys.
他爱他的球员，愿意为他的球员做任何事情。
And, so when he died, we're at his, it's not his funeral, it's before the funeral.
而且，当他去世时，我们参加了他的葬礼，这不是他的葬礼，而是葬礼之前。
It's like the open casket thing, the wake thing.
这就像打开棺材的事情，唤醒的事情。
And myself, his brother Alex, Leif Babin, who I wrote "Extreme Ownership" with, and JP Dunnell, who's one of my brothers who works with us at Echelon Front now, is with us in Ramadi and was very close to Seth.
还有我自己，他的兄弟亚历克斯、莱夫·巴宾（Leif Babin）和我一起写了《极端所有权》，还有 JP 邓内尔（JP Dunnell），他是我现在在梯队前线与我们一起工作的兄弟之一，他和我们一起在拉马迪，并且与塞斯关系非常密切。
And everyone kind of cleared out for us.
每个人都为我们清理了。
And we go in there and I think JP gave him, JP had one of those memorial bracelets with guys' names on it that had died, and JP gave that to him.
我们进去，我想 JP 给了他，JP 有一个纪念手镯，上面写着死去的人的名字，JP 把它给了他。
And I think Leif gave him some surf wax because also Seth was a surfer.
我认为莱夫给了他一些冲浪蜡，因为塞斯也是一名冲浪者。
And I gave Seth his black belt because he started training jujitsu with me, and he had his purple belt.
我给了塞斯黑带，因为他开始和我一起训练柔术，他有紫带。
He'd gotten his purple belt.
他已经获得了紫色腰带。
I gave him his black belt.
我给了他黑带。
And everyone was just quiet.
每个人都很安静。
And JP was telling this story the other day, and I just said, "We will not fail him." Meaning that him, Mark, Mikey, Chris, Seth, and countless other guys, they're not here.
JP 前几天讲了这个故事，我只是说，“我们不会让他失望的。”这意味着他、马克、麦基、克里斯、塞斯和无数其他人，他们都不在这里。
They don't have the opportunity to do the things we do.
他们没有机会做我们所做的事情。
They don't have the opportunity to get up in the morning.
他们没有机会早上起床。
So, that's what it is, man.
所以，就是这样，伙计。
I won't fail those guys.
我不会让那些家伙失望的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thanks for sharing that.
感谢您分享这一点。
Yeah.
是的。
I think anyone listening to this feels what I feel right now, which is it's very clear that the depth of emotion for people that we care about and lose has everything to do with our love for them.
我想任何听到这个的人都会感受到我现在的感受，很明显，我们对我们关心和失去的人的情感深度与我们对他们的爱密切相关。
There's just no question about it, right?
毫无疑问，对吧？
That grief and love are so intimately tied.
悲伤和爱是如此紧密地联系在一起。
They are a direct reflection of one another.
它们是彼此的直接反映。
And I hesitate to kind of stay on hard themes, but I think it's really important for a couple of reasons.
我不太愿意停留在硬主题上，但我认为这非常重要，原因有几个。
Last time we spoke, it was in your office and your podcast, and after we wrapped up, we started talking about some people we know and some things that had happened in your community and kind of spooled into some discussions about things that happened in nearby communities and civilian culture.
上次我们谈话是在你的办公室和你的播客里，结束后，我们开始谈论我们认识的一些人以及你们社区中发生的一些事情，并逐渐讨论了附近社区和平民文化中发生的事情。
And one of the things that's so perplexing, I think, to people, including me, but maybe with time less so, and this actually came up last night in a discussion at home because of some recent events, not close to me, but just that some people go through things where there's loss.
我认为，对于包括我在内的人们来说，有一件事情非常令人困惑，但也许随着时间的推移，情况会变得越来越不那么令人困惑，这实际上是昨晚在家里的一次讨论中出现的，因为最近发生的一些事件，与我无关，但只是有些人经历了一些失去的事情。
They go through life and there's hardship.
他们经历人生，也有苦难。
I think most people experience some hardship, certainly some more than others.
我认为大多数人都经历过一些困难，当然有些人比其他人经历过更多的困难。
And every once in a while, and far too often, and even in the SEAL Team community, and even in the various communities within the SEAL Team community where one would never expect it, right?
每隔一段时间，而且经常如此，甚至在海豹突击队社区中，甚至在海豹突击队社区内的各个社区中，人们永远不会想到它，对吧？
These are highly trained, tight community, hard guys, right?
他们都是训练有素、紧密的社区、坚强的人，对吗？
That's the language we sometimes hear.
这就是我们有时听到的语言。
But as you pointed out, these are people often that have tremendous emotional depth.
但正如您所指出的，这些人往往具有巨大的情感深度。
I am so glad that you brought that up because I think we sometimes think of emotion as weakness, but there was a time not long ago, 40, 50 years ago, where emotions like jealousy and intensity, think the character Sonny in "The Godfather." He would get so pissed he would bite his own fist, right?
我很高兴你提出这个问题，因为我认为我们有时认为情绪是弱点，但不久前，40、50 年前，有一个时期，像《教父》中的桑尼这个角色，像嫉妒和强烈的情绪。他一定会气得咬自己的拳头吧？
That's a pretty emotional response, where intensity and emotion were kind of interchangeable words, right?
这是一种非常情绪化的反应，强度和情绪是可以互换的词，对吧？
At some level.
在某种程度上。
I'm going to be direct.
我就直接说吧。
There have been a lot of guys coming out of the SEAL teams I've been surprised to hear that kill themselves.
我很惊讶地听到海豹突击队中有很多人自杀了。
And yesterday there was a major suicide.
昨天发生了一起重大自杀事件。
I didn't know this guy in particular.
我并不特别了解这个人。
We actually followed each other on social media, but I admittedly was not close to him, didn't know him at all.
我们实际上在社交媒体上互相关注，但我承认我和他并不亲近，根本不认识他。
In fact, his name was Twitch or something.
事实上，他的名字叫 Twitch 之类的。
I mean, this guy was a public-facing figure.
我的意思是，这个人是一个面向公众的人物。
But listen, happens all too often, and it even happens in former operators.
但听着，这种情况经常发生，甚至发生在前操作员身上。
And suicide's something that fascinates me and intrigues me and scares the hell out of me, because for the life of me, I cannot map it to any specific thing in the brain or body that we're aware of.
自杀让我着迷，让我好奇，让我害怕，因为在我的一生中，我无法将它映射到我们所意识到的大脑或身体中的任何特定事物。
And yet, I've had several friends commit suicide, had my undergrad advisor commit suicide.
然而，我有几个朋友自杀了，我的本科生导师也自杀了。
The point is not them or their story.
重点不是他们或他们的故事。
The point is, what in the world dictates whether or not somebody who has a community, who's doing well and then less well, decides to off themselves, to end their own life, versus decide, I'm going to keep going?
关键是，世界上到底是什么决定了一个拥有社区、表现良好然后表现不佳的人是否决定放弃自己、结束自己的生命，而不是决定我要继续前进？
I'm raising this as a question.
我将此作为一个问题提出。
I wish I had an answer.
我希望我能得到答案。
I used to have ideas like, oh, it's time perception.
我曾经有这样的想法，哦，这是时间感知。
These people are feeling so miserable that they feel it's going to go on forever.
这些人感到如此痛苦，他们觉得这种情况将永远持续下去。
But then you start reading the literature on suicide, and I've Started to go into this.
但后来你开始阅读有关自杀的文献，我也开始深入研究这个问题。
For those of you that can stomach it, and I don't know that I want to recommend this movie, but I'm just going to say it exists, the movie "The Bridge," where they fixed a camera on the Golden Gate Bridge for a year.
对于那些能忍受它的人，我不知道我想推荐这部电影，但我只想说它存在，电影《大桥》，他们在金门大桥上安装了一年的摄像机。
It turns out one person a day, on average, tries to jump off.
事实证明，平均每天就有一个人尝试跳楼。
They talked to a guy who survived it.
他们与一名幸存者交谈。
By the way, he jumped off.
说着，他就跳下去了。
The moment he went off there, he thought, "I wish I hadn't done that." He survived.
当他离开那里的那一刻，他想：“我希望我没有那样做。”他活了下来。
This kid with bipolar disorder, especially in males, 20 to 30 times higher incidence of suicide.
这种患有双相情感障碍的孩子，尤其是男性，自杀率高出20到30倍。
Massive increase.
大量增加。
The point is that there's something that happens in the brain where somehow people also will get the idea, and you hear this, that this is something they're excited to do, or that they're going to right the world somehow by doing this, or that somehow it's like a gift to themselves.
关键是大脑中发生了一些事情，人们也会以某种方式得到这个想法，你会听到这个，这是他们很兴奋做的事情，或者他们会通过这样做以某种方式纠正世界，或者不知何故这就像给自己的礼物。
Again, I'm not encouraging anybody to do this.
再次强调，我并不鼓励任何人这样做。
I want to be very clear.
我想说得很清楚。
But these are the things that you hear.
但这些都是你听到的。
And sadly, your community has lost a number of people through suicide, and yet there are a lot of guys that thrive.
可悲的是，你们的社区已经有很多人因自杀而丧生，但仍有很多人茁壮成长。
And so more as a template for trying to understand mental health and depression and suicide, what are your thoughts on why some people seem to thrive and some people just go all the way down?
因此，作为尝试了解心理健康、抑郁和自杀的模板，您对为什么有些人似乎蓬勃发展而有些人却一路走低有何看法？
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Clearly, that's a very complex question, and there's probably a lot of different answers, and I certainly am not one to be able to answer that question.
显然，这是一个非常复杂的问题，可能有很多不同的答案，而我当然不是能够回答这个问题的人。
However, probably where my thought has gone on this lately, because I've known some guys that have killed themselves, and I've been totally shocked.
然而，也许我最近一直在想这个问题，因为我知道有些人自杀了，我感到非常震惊。
And just been completely and totally shocked that guys that I knew killed themselves.
我对我认识的人自杀感到非常震惊。
Guys that you would think, "Oh, this guy would never do this in a million years." And that's the feeling I've had about a lot of the guys that I know that have killed themselves.
你可能会想，“哦，这家伙一百万年内都不会这么做。”这就是我对许多我认识的自杀者的感受。
I had a woman on my podcast named Sarah Wilkinson, and she's an awesome woman, and she was married to a SEAL.
我的播客中有一位名叫莎拉·威尔金森（Sarah Wilkinson）的女人，她是一位很棒的女人，她嫁给了一名海豹突击队队员。
His name was Chad.
他的名字叫查德。
I didn't know him.
我不认识他。
He killed himself.
他自杀了。
And to hear her describe the story, the shocking thing about the story is that the guy that she knew and the guy that she married was not the same guy that killed himself.
听她描述这个故事，这个故事令人震惊的是，她认识的那个人和她结婚的那个人并不是自杀的那个人。
Something happened to him that made him a different person.
他身上发生了一些事情，让他变成了另外一个人。
And look, they're getting all this information now about CTE and the brain trauma that you go through, and people are exposed to that.
看，他们现在正在获取有关 CTE 和您所经历的脑外伤的所有信息，并且人们会接触到这些信息。
And I think, if you've ever seen George Foreman, he seems totally normal and good to go, right?
我想，如果你见过乔治·福尔曼，他看起来很正常，很不错，对吧？
And Muhammad Ali, not so much.
而穆罕默德·阿里则不然。
And I've known fighters, and you can look at any number of boxers that have had a career, and some of them are fine, and some of them have some real significant, what is it?
我认识一些拳击手，你可以看看任何有过职业生涯的拳击手，他们中的一些人很好，他们中的一些人有一些真正重要的，那是什么？
Pugilistic syndrome, right?
拳击综合症，对吗？
They've been punched too much, and they have problems.
他们受到的打击太多了，他们也有问题。
So different people, you can expose different people to blast impact, and it's going to have a different impact over time.
所以不同的人，你可以让不同的人受到爆炸影响，随着时间的推移，它会产生不同的影响。
And I think that, again, to hear Sarah explain that story and what she saw from her husband and how different he was when they got married compared to where they ended up is totally different.
我认为，再次听到莎拉解释这个故事，以及她从她丈夫身上看到的东西，以及他们结婚时和他们最终的生活相比，他有多么不同，是完全不同的。
A totally different person.
一个完全不同的人。
I had another friend of mine on named Marcus Capone, and his wife came on with him, and she said the same thing.
我有另一个朋友，名叫马库斯·卡彭，他的妻子和他一起来，她也说了同样的话。
The guy that she married was not the same guy that was ready to kill himself, and he didn't, thankfully.
她嫁给的那个男人并不是那个准备自杀的男人，谢天谢地，他也没有这么做。
It was a different person.
这是一个不同的人。
And look, if Fred is married to some woman and Fred and Jessica grow apart over time and he ends up with some other girl, it's still the same guy, right?
你看，如果弗雷德和某个女人结婚了，随着时间的推移，弗雷德和杰西卡渐行渐远，最后他又和另一个女孩在一起了，那仍然是同一个人，对吧？
It's still the same guy that is now, look, they grew apart, they're getting divorced.
现在还是那个人，看，他们分开了，他们要离婚了。
We get it.
我们明白了。
But the way that both of them described their husbands as being different people, that's what stuck with me more than anything else.
但他们俩都将自己的丈夫描述为不同的人，这比其他任何事情都更让我印象深刻。
So again, I'm throwing this out there only because it's what I've observed through the people that I know and seeing and hearing those stories of people being totally different.
再说一遍，我之所以把这个扔出去只是因为这是我通过我认识的人观察到的，看到和听到的那些完全不同的人的故事。
And I've known a few people.
我认识一些人。
One of my friends, Dave, killed himself.
我的一位朋友戴夫自杀了。
I never would've guessed in a million years that Dave would've killed himself.
我绝不会想到一百万年后戴夫会自杀。
It doesn't compute.
它不会计算。
And so my suspicion is there has to be something going on mechanically or chemically with the brain that causes them to get into a mode where they're depressed, and they don't see a way out, and that that's the way they feel now.
所以我怀疑大脑中一定发生了某种机械或化学反应，导致他们进入一种抑郁的模式，他们看不到出路，这就是他们现在的感受。
And again, what's interesting about this is we already talked about the fact that the selection process weeds out guys that are going to take a loss and not be able to get up again.
再说一次，有趣的是我们已经讨论过这样一个事实，即选择过程会淘汰那些将遭受损失且无法再次站起来的人。
No, you've got SEALs.
不，你有海豹突击队。
SEALs can take a loss and get back up again.
海豹突击队可以承受损失并重新站起来。
That's what you learn how to do in- You don't learn how to do it.
这就是你学习如何做的——你不学习如何做。
You have it.
你有它。
And if you make it through that training, you have that ability to take a loss, all right, cool, shake it off, get back up, keep going.
如果你通过了训练，你就有能力承受损失，好吧，冷静，摆脱它，重新站起来，继续前进。
They're going to do that to you.
他们会这样对你。
So now you've got guys that are taking a loss and they don't see a way out anymore.
所以现在有些人正在遭受损失，他们再也看不到出路了。
In fact, to such a point that they're going to take their own lives.
事实上，他们已经到了要自杀的地步。
My suspicion is at some point they're going to figure out that this exposure to the adrenaline, the explosions all the time.
我怀疑在某个时候他们会发现这种暴露在肾上腺素下的情况，一直在爆炸。
You go out to a range, just in peacetime.
你去靶场，只是在和平时期。
You go out to a range and you shoot a Carl Gustaf, and you're a range safety officer, so you go out there with every guy that's shooting a Carl Gustaf.
你去靶场射击卡尔·古斯塔夫，你是靶场安全官员，所以你和每个射击卡尔·古斯塔夫的人一起去那里。
It's a big, giant, bazooka-looking weapon.
这是一种巨大的、巨大的、看起来像火箭筒的武器。
And every time you shoot it, it kind of rattles your cage a little bit.
每次你射击它时，你的笼子都会有点震动。
Well, if you're a range safety officer and you're out there and you're going to watch everyone in the platoon shoot three of those, it's going to have impact.
好吧，如果你是一名靶场安全官员，你在外面，你会看到排里的每个人都射击其中三枚，这将会产生影响。
Then you go overseas and you're a breacher, or you're part of a breach team.
然后你去了海外，你就是一个违规者，或者你是违规团队的一员。
I had a time where one of my guys, we're doing an assault on a compound.
有一次，我的一个人正在袭击一处院落。
I'm on the ladder.
我在梯子上。
Most buildings in Iraq have a wall around them, so the way we would conduct these raids, put the ladder up, the breach team would climb over the ladder, and I would go right behind the breach team, and I would stand on the ladder so I'm looking at the building, observing, making sure there's no one waking up, making sure there's no threats.
伊拉克的大多数建筑物周围都有墙，所以我们进行这些突袭的方式是，把梯子架起来，突破小组会爬上梯子，我会走到突破小组后面，我会站在梯子上，这样我就会看着建筑物，观察，确保没有人醒来，确保没有威胁。
And then as I'm watching this guy in particular, he puts the breach on the door, explosive breach, so he's going to blow the door up.
然后当我特别关注这个家伙时，他在门上开了一个缺口，爆炸性缺口，所以他要把门炸毁。
He's got his little team with him.
他带着他的小团队。
He puts the breach on the door.
他把缺口放在门上。
He starts to back away, and there's an obstacle there.
他开始后退，那里有一个障碍物。
It was like a freaking table or a lawn chair or something, and he couldn't get around it.
它就像一张该死的桌子或一把草坪椅什么的，他无法绕过它。
And I'm sitting there, it's dark.
我坐在那里，天很黑。
It's the middle of the night.
现在是半夜。
It's 2:00 in the morning.
现在是凌晨 2:00。
And I'm like, "I wonder what he's going to do." And I see him kind of stuck for a second, and then I just see him lay down.
我想，“我想知道他会做什么。”我看到他被卡住了一秒钟，然后我就看到他躺了下来。
And I'm like, "Oh, he's just going to take this thing." And sure enough, three or four feet away from this breach point, he lays down and just clacks off this explosive charge.
我想，“哦，他就会接受这个东西。”果然，在距离这个突破点三四英尺远的地方，他躺了下来，咔哒一声炸掉了爆炸物。
And I jump over the wall, and as I'm going in and I'm trying to get the rest of the platoon to go and commence this assault, I look at him.
我跳过墙，当我进去并试图让排的其他人开始攻击时，我看着他。
He looked like he just got hit in the head with a baseball bat.
他看上去就像是头部刚刚被棒球棒击中。
And guess what he did the next night?
你猜他第二天晚上做了什么？
Another breach on another target.
另一个目标的又一次突破。
And guess what he did the next night?
你猜他第二天晚上做了什么？
Another breach on another target.
另一个目标的又一次突破。
So you get guys that have that exposure, which is-- Every SEAL's eating a breach.
所以你会得到那些有这种暴露的人，那就是——每个海豹突击队都在吃突破口。
You're eating flashbangs, you're eating breaches, you're shooting .50 cals.
你正在吃闪光弹，你正在吃突破口，你正在射击 0.50 卡。
You're eating some traumatic brain injury.
你正在吃一些脑外伤。
But then you must have some people that have some sort of genetic propensity to have this negative thing happen.
但肯定有一些人具有某种遗传倾向，导致这种负面的事情发生。
And I can only guess, man, that this has something to do with it.
我只能猜测，伙计，这与此有关。
Because otherwise, we wouldn't be hearing so many of these stories.
因为否则的话，我们就不会听到这么多这样的故事。
And of course, we're just talking about the SEAL teams.
当然，我们只是在谈论海豹突击队。
We're not talking about the military writ large, which is in the same exact boat.
我们不是在谈论军事上的大事，这也是同样的情况。
I'm also nervous about the social contagion of suicide-
我也对自杀的社会蔓延感到紧张——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
...
...
within the veteran community.
在退伍军人社区内。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
I'm nervous about that.
我对此很紧张。
It's one of the things that makes me apprehensive about talking about it, but obviously, I've talked about it.
这是让我担心谈论它的事情之一，但显然，我已经谈论过它了。
I've had people on my podcast to discuss these things.
我的播客上有人讨论这些事情。
But I am worried about that social contagion of, "Man, Fred did it.
但我担心这种社会蔓延，“伙计，弗雷德做到了。
He got all this attention, and he doesn't have to deal with anything anymore.
他得到了这么多的关注，他不需要再处理任何事情了。
I'm going to do it, too." There's got to be some level of that going on as well.
我也要做。”在某种程度上，这种情况也一定会发生。
So it's a horrible situation.
所以这是一个可怕的情况。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, the social contagion part is one that hits home from a different dimension.
是的，社会传染部分是从另一个维度击中要害的。
The high school I went to, which the name isn't important, but Gunn High School, G-U-N-N.
我就读的高中，名字不重要，重要的是Gunn High School，G-U-N-N。
Gunn High School is famous for being one of the better public high schools, not that I attended as much as I should have.
冈恩高中因是最好的公立高中之一而闻名，但这并不是因为我参加了应有的学习。
I could tell you more about the curbs in the parking lot than I could tell you about the classes I took.
我可以告诉你更多关于停车场路缘的信息，而不是我可以告诉你我参加的课程的信息。
And that's just not encouraging people to not attend high school.
这并不是鼓励人们不上高中。
Please do.
请这样做。
It took a lot of really hard work to climb back up to where I should've been when I graduated.
我花了很多努力才回到毕业时应该达到的水平。
But it has an infamous reputation, or I should say a reputation as an infamous school because it's one of the highest suicide rates in any of the schools in the country because there's train tracks that run through town, and there was a kind of a contagion of kids throwing themselves on the train tracks.
但它的名声臭名昭著，或者我应该说是一所臭名昭著的学校，因为它是全国自杀率最高的学校之一，因为有火车轨道穿过城镇，并且有一种孩子们在火车轨道上自杀的传染病。
This was happening a lot.
这种事发生了很多次。
This was written up in various newspapers, et cetera.
这在各种报纸上都有报道，等等。
Fortunately, it seems to have died down.
幸运的是，它似乎已经平息了。
Again, I'm also hesitant to talk about this because no one wants to spark this, but there does seem to be something about lack of ability to see into a future, obviously, or the future that people are seeing into is so dark that somehow they lose touch with the idea that emotions come and go.
再说一遍，我也很犹豫是否要谈论这个，因为没有人想引发这个问题，但显然，似乎确实缺乏预见未来的能力，或者人们所看到的未来是如此黑暗，以至于他们以某种方式失去了情绪来来去去的想法。
You said it about emotion, about motivation.
你说的是情感、动机。
Emotions come and go, but somehow people lose touch with that.
情绪来来去去，但不知怎的，人们却失去了联系。
And then I will venture a guess, and here I'm hoping someone's going to figure this out at some point, so we can have a more concrete conversation about the mechanisms and what to do about it.
然后我将大胆猜测，在这里我希望有人能在某个时候弄清楚这一点，这样我们就可以就机制以及如何应对进行更具体的对话。
But I think there's also something about identity, about loss of a place to put one's energy, something useful in the world.
但我认为还有一些关于身份的问题，关于失去一个人的精力的地方，关于世界上有用的东西。
What you're talking about here are guys that are generators, right?
你在这里谈论的是发电机组的人，对吗？
They are not projectors.
它们不是投影仪。
They're generators.
他们是发电机。
They live to have effective action on the world for good and then end up killing themselves.
他们活着是为了对世界做出有效的善行，然后最终自杀。
In youth, it's a little more complicated to put a finger on because what's going on there?
在年轻的时候，用手指去触摸会有点复杂，因为那里发生了什么？
We assume depression, but then in learning more about suicide, there's also this kind of excitement for certain people about solving something that seemed unsolvable any other way.
我们假设患有抑郁症，但在更多地了解自杀的过程中，某些人也会因为解决一些其他方式似乎无法解决的问题而感到兴奋。
And again, I'm certainly not encouraging this.
再说一遍，我当然不鼓励这样做。
I'm strongly discouraging people from taking their own life, obviously.
显然，我强烈劝阻人们不要自杀。
But something about time and the loss of perception about time, and one thing that we know for sure, here we can really hang our hat on something, is that if you do the forensics on somebody that was suicidal, attempted or took their life, in the preceding days and weeks, their sleep-wake schedule was completely whacked.
但关于时间和对时间知觉丧失的一些事情，以及我们确实知道的一件事，在这里我们真的可以把我们的帽子挂在某件事上，那就是，如果你对一个有自杀倾向、试图自杀或自杀的人进行取证，在过去的几天和几周内，他们的睡眠-觉醒时间表完全被打乱了。
They exit the normal routine of most people.
他们脱离了大多数人的正常生活。
They isolate through inversions of time.
他们通过时间倒转来隔离。
And I do wonder sometimes whether or not the vampire shifts, as they're sometimes called, the nighttime deployments, and the back and forth.
有时我确实想知道吸血鬼是否会改变夜间部署，以及来回移动（有时被称为吸血鬼）。
I mean, that's a lot for a system to take.
我的意思是，对于一个系统来说，这实在是太多了。
Shift workers kill themselves far more than non-shift workers.
轮班工人的自杀率远高于不轮班工人。
So I do think there's something there.
所以我确实认为那里有一些东西。
And again, I'm not saying everyone needs to be in bed by 9:00 and up by 4:00, although that would be a great schedule for most people.
再说一次，我并不是说每个人都需要在 9:00 之前上床睡觉并在 4:00 之前起床，尽管这对大多数人来说是一个很好的时间表。
But I do think that there are some universal laws of what makes the human body and brain healthy, and if you violate those laws long enough with CTE or with disruption in your schedules, you run the risk, especially if there's a predisposition there, and then other factors start to layer in.
但我确实认为，存在一些使人体和大脑健康的普遍规律，如果您长时间违反这些规律而导致 CTE 或日程安排被打乱，您就会面临风险，特别是如果存在某种倾向，然后其他因素开始叠加。
Again, and I have to apologize because I don't have any real answers or more biology or psychology to firmly throw at this, except the warning for people who are bipolar or know somebody with bipolar, they are 20 to 30 times more likely to kill themselves, and males in particular are more likely to use methods that will kill them the first time as opposed to survive.
再次，我必须道歉，因为我没有任何真正的答案或更多的生物学或心理学来坚定地提出这个问题，除了对躁郁症患者或认识躁郁症患者的警告之外，他们自杀的可能性高出 20 到 30 倍，尤其是男性更有可能使用第一次杀死他们的方法，而不是生存。
There's a big sex difference there.
这里面有很大的性别差异。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah.
是的。
You throw alcohol in there, too.
你也把酒倒进去。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
And Marcus is running an organization now where they're taking vets down to do the psychedelic, what do they call it?
马库斯现在管理着一个组织，他们让退伍军人去做迷幻药，他们称之为什么？
A journey.
一次旅程。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
This is Veteran Solutions?
这是老手解决方案吗？
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Right.
对。
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
They're a great organization.
他们是一个伟大的组织。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I should mention, very bipartisan organization.
我应该提到，这是一个非常两党合作的组织。
I attended one event on Coronado and there were people from the far left, the far right, politicians, and everything in between talking about how critical this is.
我参加了科罗纳多的一次活动，来自极左翼、极右翼、政客以及介于两者之间的各种人士都在谈论这一点的重要性。
So this is not a political issue.
所以这不是一个政治问题。
This is a mental health issue.
这是一个心理健康问题。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah.
是的。
And even when I reflected on Marcus talking to me, he was talking about how he's kind of in this downward spiral.
甚至当我想起马库斯跟我说话时，他也在谈论他是如何陷入螺旋式下降的。
Part of the downward spiral, he's drinking every day.
作为螺旋式下降的一部分，他每天都喝酒。
And I'm thinking to myself, "Man." I didn't think of it during the show, I kind of was thinking about it afterwards.
我心里想，“伙计。”我在演出期间没有想到这一点，我后来才想到这一点。
I was thinking, man, if you're drinking all the time, you're on a downward spiral.
我在想，伙计，如果你一直喝酒，你就会陷入螺旋式下降。
That's one thing you should just stop.
这是你应该停止的一件事。
Let's stop that immediately.
让我们立即停止吧。
So I just wanted to throw that out there.
所以我只是想把它扔掉。
I think that's another sign from the outside looking in, if someone's self-medicating with alcohol, it's not a good place.
我认为这是从外面看的另一个迹象，如果有人用酒精自我治疗，那不是一个好地方。
They're not in a good place, and they could probably use some help.
他们处境不太好，也许需要一些帮助。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I appreciate you saying it.
我很感激你这么说。
Again, we did this episode on alcohol.
再次，我们做了关于酒精的这一集。
I went into it totally open-minded.
我完全以开放的心态参与其中。
I've never been a big drinker.
我从来都不是一个大酒鬼。
I've had it.
我已经受够了。
I can drink or not drink.
我可以喝也可以不喝。
Was never really into drugs at all.
从来没有真正迷上毒品。
Dabbled a little bit when I was younger.
年轻的时候也接触过一点。
I regret it, frankly.
坦白说，我很后悔。
Brain is plastic early on.
大脑很早就是可塑的。
I didn't need that.
我不需要那个。
Never did hard drugs, never touched cocaine, amphetamine, or anything like that.
从未吸过烈性毒品，从未接触过可卡因、安非他明或类似的东西。
And if I had, I would say, right?
如果我有的话，我会说，对吗？
I'm comfortable enough in my position in life that if I had, I'd certainly say.
我在生活中的地位足够舒服，如果我有的话，我肯定会说。
But I think that it's pretty clear that alcohol is bad for us.
但我认为很明显酒精对我们有害。
It's certainly past a certain two drink week limit.
这肯定已经超过了每周喝两杯的限制。
People, especially with a propensity for alcoholism or who are dealing with other issues, that's especially the case for not drinking, right?
人们，尤其是有酗酒倾向或正在处理其他问题的人，尤其不喝酒，对吧？
And I guess we've gotten into some hard territory here, but I think if this conversation cues up an awareness to anybody, which I hope it would, either people that are in that space of wondering if they should continue or not, or that know somebody who might be, I do think that the takeaway is very clear, which is that there are ways to avoid these traps and to avoid making these traps worse.
我想我们已经陷入了一些困难的领域，但我认为，如果这次对话让任何人都意识到了这一点，我希望如此，无论是那些正在思考是否应该继续下去的人，还是认识的人可能会继续，我确实认为结论是非常明确的，那就是有办法避免这些陷阱，并避免使这些陷阱变得更糟。
And I think with regular sleep-wake schedules, understanding that, and I wrote this down, that you've particular have said several times today, rather than looking for sources of things outside you, like a job or a relationship, which are all great, but as sources of energy or motivation or inspiration to use action, positive action, as a source of energy.
我认为，通过定期的睡眠-觉醒时间表，了解这一点，我把这一点写下来，你今天特别说过几次，而不是寻找你之外的事物的来源，比如工作或一段关系，这些都很棒，但作为能量或动机或灵感的来源，使用行动，积极的行动，作为能量的来源。
If I could put that up on a billboard in Times Square, I would, right?
如果我能把它放在时代广场的广告牌上，我会的，对吧？
And I'd put your name next to it, which is that positive action is a source of energy that then you can recycle into more things.
我会把你的名字放在它旁边，那就是积极的行动是能量的来源，然后你可以将其回收到更多的事情中。
I think-
我认为——
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah.
是的。
And-
还有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Going back to the fundamentals, right?
回到基本面，对吗？
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah.
是的。
And positive action is when you have to contend with something, when there's something that you're afraid of, right?
积极的行动是当你必须应对某些事情时，当你害怕某些事情时，对吧？
Step into it, move towards it.
走进它，走向它。
That's how you're going to solve that problem.
这就是你要解决这个问题的方法。
You don't solve problems by running away from them.
你不能通过逃避问题来解决问题。
You solve them by moving towards them and figuring out what's going on.
你可以通过走向它们并弄清楚发生了什么来解决它们。
And alcohol is obviously a clear way to avoid the problem, at least for the next four hours, and you wake up and that problem's still there, and that's not good.
酒精显然是避免这个问题的一个明显方法，至少在接下来的四个小时内，当你醒来时问题仍然存在，这并不好。
But when you've got some kind of a problem, and listen, then we could go down the whole path of talking about the indirect approach, which is a theory of combat, which I completely believe in.
但是，当你遇到某种问题并倾听时，我们可以沿着整个路径讨论间接方法，这是一种我完全相信的战斗理论。
But it also applies to interacting with other people.
但它也适用于与其他人的互动。
If you have a problem with some other person, to think to myself, "Well, I got a problem with Andrew.
如果你和其他人有问题，心里想，“好吧，我和安德鲁有问题。
I'm going to go confront him on it." And that might not be the best solution.
我要去跟他对峙一下。”这可能不是最好的解决方案。
In fact, it's probably not the best solution for me to go confront you with the problem because now we're going to have a confrontation.
事实上，我去面对你的问题可能不是最好的解决方案，因为现在我们要进行对抗。
It might be better for me to take an indirect approach and not confront you, but instead engage in a conversation with you about something that's maybe adjacent to the problem that I have.
对我来说，最好采取间接的方式，不要与您对峙，而是与您就可能与我遇到的问题相关的事情进行对话。
And then eventually that builds our relationship to a point where you start to recognize, oh, I bet Jocko feels something about this thing, and we can move towards a solution instead of me trying to punch you in the face with some truth that I believe versus the truth that you believe, and now we're engaged in combat, and that's bad.
最终，这将我们的关系建立到了一个地步，你开始认识到，哦，我打赌乔科对这件事有所感觉，我们可以找到解决方案，而不是我试图用我相信的一些事实与你所相信的事实来打你的脸，现在我们正在进行战斗，这很糟糕。
There's going to be casualties.
会有人员伤亡。
I'd rather take an indirect approach and build a relationship where we can solve problems in a more positive way.
我宁愿采取间接的方式并建立一种我们可以以更积极的方式解决问题的关系。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love that, and I love it because it really speaks to the power of thinking carefully and being patient and a little bit slower at times.
我喜欢这一点，因为它确实体现了仔细思考、耐心、有时慢一点的力量。
I also heard you say something earlier that's still flagging in my mind, which is not thinking too much.
我之前也听你说过一些话，现在我脑子里还残留着一些东西，没有想太多。
Seems to be a time where thinking too much is very dangerous.
看来现在这个时代，想太多是非常危险的。
And again, we can keep the discussion that we were having about mental health, or we could even just call it what it is, mental illness.
再说一遍，我们可以继续讨论心理健康问题，或者我们甚至可以将其称为精神疾病。
I think everyone would agree suicide is some reflection of an unhealthy state.
我想每个人都会同意自杀是不健康状态的某种反映。
We can keep that in the backdrop as we talk about this, but this isn't necessarily only about that.
当我们谈论这个问题时，我们可以把它放在背景中，但这不一定只是这个。
You seem to have an ability to engage in things without thinking too much, and yet also to sit back and be pretty observant And you've talked about third personing of the self.
你似乎有能力在不思考太多的情况下参与事情，同时也能坐下来保持相当的观察力并且你已经谈到了自我的第三人称。
I'd love to talk a little bit more about this, even though it's a topic you've delved into before, and in particular, the topic of meditation.
我很想多谈谈这个问题，尽管这是您之前深入研究过的主题，特别是冥想的主题。
I've been reading more about meditation.
我一直在阅读更多有关冥想的内容。
I've meditated for different stretches in my life, different amounts of time.
在我的一生中，我冥想过不同的阶段、不同的时间。
And there are two basic forms of meditation that I only recently learned about.
我最近才了解到两种基本的冥想形式。
One is a focused attention meditation, sitting, closing your eyes, focusing on your breath, body, body surface, or even a visual target in your environment, and just focus.
一种是集中注意力冥想，坐下来，闭上眼睛，专注于你的呼吸、身体、身体表面，甚至是环境中的视觉目标，然后集中注意力。
And we know that that enhances one's ability to focus.
我们知道这可以增强一个人的专注能力。
If you do it too late in the day, it'll also enhance your ability to not fall asleep, right?
如果你在一天中太晚这样做，它也会增强你睡不着的能力，对吗？
A lot of people don't realize that meditation too late in the day, if it's a focused meditation, you're just ramping up the activity in the prefrontal cortex.
很多人没有意识到冥想在一天中太晚了，如果是集中冥想，那么你只是在增强前额叶皮层的活动。
It's a great tool for getting better at focusing.
这是提高注意力的好工具。
But then there's also this type of meditation called open observer meditation, where you purposefully don't include a target in your mind or in your vision or in your hearing, and you just sit there, eyes closed or eyes open, and you go into a place of whatever comes up, cool, but you don't hover there too long.
但还有一种叫做开放观察者冥想的冥想，你有目的地不在你的头脑、视觉或听觉中包含一个目标，你只是坐在那里，闭上眼睛或睁开眼睛，然后你进入一个无论出现什么的地方，很酷，但你不会在那里徘徊太久。
The goal is to not hover on any one thing, which sounds like deliberate attention deficit disorder, but it's actually a pretty cool method, it turns out, for restoring our ability to engage in focus, but also for one particular thing that you mentioned earlier, which is creativity and creative problem-solving.
我们的目标是不要在任何一件事上徘徊，这听起来像是故意的注意力缺陷障碍，但事实证明，这实际上是一种非常酷的方法，可以恢复我们专注的能力，而且也可以恢复你之前提到的一件特定的事情，那就是创造力和创造性地解决问题。
Which, of course, requires accessing, let's just say, more colors on the palette than your vision might be on realizing, oh, there's also all these other colors over here in the periphery that I'm missing because I'm hyper-focused.
当然，这需要访问，比方说，调色板上的颜色比你想象的要多，哦，在外围还有所有其他颜色，我错过了，因为我太专注了。
Do you meditate?
你冥想吗？
If you do meditate, is it more of an open monitoring or a focused meditation?
如果你冥想，是更多的是开放式监控还是集中冥想？
And if you don't do a kind of standard meditation, are there times throughout your day and your routine and your week where, as I'm describing this, it maps to something that kind of feels like open monitoring or focused meditation?
如果你不进行某种标准的冥想，那么在你的一天、你的日常生活和你的一周中，正如我所描述的那样，它是否会映射到某种感觉像开放监控或集中冥想的东西？
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah.
是的。
So no, I don't meditate.
所以不，我不冥想。
I don't think I've ever actually meditated for one second in my life, and I
我想我一生中从未真正冥想过一秒钟，而且我
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I refuse to.
我拒绝。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
No, it's not that at all.
不，根本不是那样的。
I know Sam Harris sent me his app, and we were going to do a podcast, and I said, "Dude, I'll do it for two weeks, and we'll do a podcast, and I'll be more enlightened and everything." And I didn't even give Sam Harris two weeks.
我知道萨姆·哈里斯给我发了他的应用程序，我们打算做一个播客，我说，“伙计，我会做两周，我们会做一个播客，我会更加开明和一切。”我什至没有给萨姆·哈里斯两周的时间。
So I still owe Sam Harris two weeks on his app of meditation so we can see how it impacts me.
所以我还欠萨姆·哈里斯两周的冥想应用程序，所以我们可以看看它对我有何影响。
But no, I've never done it before.
但不，我以前从未这样做过。
I've never tried to do it.
我从来没有尝试过这样做。
And that being said, if the goal is to take a step back and detach from what's going on, I do that all day, every day.
话虽这么说，如果目标是退后一步，脱离正在发生的事情，我每天都会这么做。
And so that is something that I've talked about, and it's something that I tried to teach.
这就是我已经谈论过的事情，也是我试图教授的事情。
I tried to teach the young SEAL leaders not to get caught up in what's happening right in front of them, but to take a step back, detach from the situation, detach from their emotions, see more of what's happening.
我试图教导年轻的海豹突击队领导人不要陷入眼前发生的事情，而是退后一步，脱离情境，脱离情绪，多看看正在发生的事情。
You're talking about seeing more colors of the palette.
您正在谈论看到调色板的更多颜色。
Well, on the battlefield, I want people to be able to see more angles, more maneuvers, more opportunities, more of what the enemy might do, more perspective.
那么，在战场上，我希望人们能够看到更多的角度，更多的机动，更多的机会，更多的敌人可能会做什么，更多的视角。
That's what I always tried to achieve.
这就是我一直努力实现的目标。
And so I'm sorry.
所以我很抱歉。
I apologize.
我道歉。
I can't give you any good discussion on meditation because I haven't tried it.
我无法给你任何关于冥想的好的讨论，因为我还没有尝试过。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No apology necessary.
无需道歉。
But I will ask, when you go surfing and you're sitting in the water waiting for a wave, are you focused on one particular location on the horizon, or are you in kind of an open monitoring, just enjoying, just bouncing up and down in the water?
但我会问，当你去冲浪，坐在水里等待波浪时，你是专注于地平线上的某个特定位置，还是处于一种开放的监视状态，只是享受，只是在水中上下弹跳？
Where is your attention during activities like that?
在这样的活动中你的注意力在哪里？
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah.
是的。
So oftentimes surfing, you're a monkey mind, and you're just not thinking about anything.
很多时候，在冲浪时，你就是一个猴子头脑，什么都不想。
Same thing with jujitsu.
柔术也是如此。
Also with surfing, if you're waiting for a wave, your mind is just going.
冲浪时，如果你在等待波浪，你的思绪就会飞驰。
It's in another universe sometimes as you're sitting there waiting because you're just looking out at the horizon, and my mind, I'm thinking about all kinds.
有时你坐在另一个宇宙中等待，因为你只是看着地平线，而我的脑海里，我正在思考各种各样的事情。
I have to come home sometimes and write notes because I thought of this, I thought of an idea, I thought of a perspective.
有时我必须回家写笔记，因为我想到了这个，我想到了一个想法，我想到了一个观点。
That happens to me at jujitsu, that happens to me talking to people, where someone's talking about something, I'm like, "Oh, I got a good idea right now.
这种情况发生在我练习柔术时，发生在我与人交谈时，当有人在谈论某事时，我会说，“哦，我现在有一个好主意。
I've got to go write that down." I have to go and write it down.
我得去把它写下来。”我得去把它写下来。
I have notes in my phone, like pages and pages and pages of notes in my phone of ideas that I had, and I write them down.
我的手机里有很多笔记，就像手机里一页又一页的笔记，记录着我的想法，我把它们写下来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you voice memo things or you-
你会用声音记录事情还是你-
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
No, I type them.
不，我打字。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
I only need to type like seven words-
我只需要输入七个字——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
...
...
and then I have the whole ideas in my head.
然后我脑子里就有了整个想法。
So.
所以。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I put a lot into the notes in my phone as well, and it probably looks like gibberish to a lot of people, but I go back through them when I'm on the plane, especially problems I was challenged with 10 years ago or something, and I look, and I go, "Oh my, I'm still dealing with the same thing, different situation." Same me, right?
我也在手机里写了很多笔记，对很多人来说可能看起来像是胡言乱语，但当我在飞机上时，我会回顾它们，特别是10年前遇到的挑战或其他问题，我看着，然后我说，“哦，天哪，我仍然在处理同样的事情，不同的情况。”和我一样吧？
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We had an amazing psychiatrist on the show, but I'd love to hear a conversation between the two of you.
我们节目里有一位很棒的精神科医生，但我很想听听你们两个之间的对话。
His name is Paul Conti.
他的名字叫保罗·孔蒂。
He was trained at Stanford and Harvard.
他曾在斯坦福大学和哈佛大学接受过培训。
He's an amazing guy.
他是一个了不起的人。
Actually, he talks openly about the tragedy that his brother killed himself, which was what drove him into psychiatry.
事实上，他公开谈论了他哥哥自杀的悲剧，这促使他进入精神病学领域。
And he's an interesting guy because he's obviously highly educated, incredibly smart.
他是一个有趣的人，因为他显然受过高等教育，而且非常聪明。
He wrote a book on trauma, but he has incredible knowledge about a number of other areas of psychology, including narcissism, sociopathy.
他写了一本关于创伤的书，但他对心理学的许多其他领域也有着令人难以置信的知识，包括自恋、反社会。
He's worked in a lot of really interesting domains and with interesting people that everyone listening on this podcast would recognize.
他在很多非常有趣的领域工作过，并与每个收听这个播客的人都会认识的有趣的人一起工作。
Of course, he's not going to reveal who those people are.
当然，他不会透露这些人是谁。
And he talks about the fact that you can look at different people.
他谈到了这样一个事实：你可以观察不同的人。
He was actually the one that shared with me this notion of generators and projectors and directed me towards that literature.
实际上，他与我分享了生成器和投影仪的概念，并引导我走向了这些文献。
But when he came on the podcast, he talked a little bit about that stuff, but he talked mostly about trauma.
但当他出现在播客上时，他谈到了一些这些东西，但他主要谈论的是创伤。
But then we were talking about ways in which people engage in the world and different archetypes and how you start looking at stories throughout history, and you start seeing the same themes over and over, right?
但后来我们讨论了人们参与世界的方式和不同的原型，以及你如何开始审视整个历史的故事，你开始一遍又一遍地看到相同的主题，对吗？
Westerns, this idea of a guy rides into town and does some repair work like defeats the sinister person or things that are imposing on the town, then rides to the next town.
在西部片中，这个想法是一个人骑着马进城，做一些修复工作，比如打败镇上的邪恶人物或事物，然后骑到下一个城镇。
It's always like it ends with, it's going to keep continuing.
事情总是这样结束，又会继续下去。
But then when we got into this discussion of relationship, he talks about, he said this on the podcast of a patient who said, "I've been in 10 abusive relationships." And he'd say to that patient, "No, you've been in one relationship 10 times." Which is essentially, it's all about your issue.
但当我们开始讨论关系时，他在一位患者的播客上说道，“我经历过 10 次虐待关系。”他会对那个病人说：“不，你已经谈过十次恋爱了。”从本质上讲，这都是关于你的问题。
That's not you.
那不是你。
I purposely didn't point at you for those listening.
我故意没有指着你听的人。
And I think that those features of ourselves that we bring from condition to condition can be negative or they can be positive.
我认为，我们在不同的条件下所带来的我们自己的特征可能是消极的，也可能是积极的。
One thing that's interesting, and here I'm not trying to solve or understand the SEAL Team community per se, but I think they represent an important archetype because they are selected for this ability to take hard conditions and failures and turn them into wins.
有一件有趣的事情，在这里我并不是试图解决或理解海豹突击队社区本身，但我认为他们代表了一个重要的原型，因为他们被选中是因为有能力应对困难的条件和失败并将其转化为胜利。
That's one of the selection criteria, it seems to be.
这似乎是选择标准之一。
They're finding who has that capability.
他们正在寻找谁有这种能力。
I see a lot of, and happen to know a few people from the SEAL teams who get out and do really well.
我看到很多，并且碰巧认识一些海豹突击队的人，他们走出去并且表现得非常好。
Like great businesses.
就像伟大的企业一样。
You're a shining example of this, and you have a family and you got a German Shepherd, too.
你就是一个光辉的例子，你有一个家庭，也有一只德国牧羊犬。
We'll talk about animals in a little bit.
我们稍后会讨论动物。
You got a dog, and it's like you surf and you train and like I'm sure you have your dark places, dark moments, and challenges like anybody else, but things look to me like they're going pretty well.
你养了一只狗，就像你冲浪、训练一样，我确信你和其他人一样有黑暗的地方、黑暗的时刻和挑战，但在我看来，一切进展顺利。
And then I also know people from the SEAL teams, okay, they don't go down the path of suicide, fortunately, but it's sort of like they don't do as well as I would have thought.
然后我也认识海豹突击队的人，好吧，幸运的是，他们没有走上自杀的道路，但他们的表现似乎没有我想象的那么好。
And I'm certainly not picking on this community.
我当然不会针对这个社区。
I also see this from people who are professional athletes.
我也从职业运动员身上看到了这一点。
I know kids that were phenomenal in high school.
我认识一些在高中表现出色的孩子。
These were like early admission to all the Ivy League schools because that was what happened in the town that I grew up in.
这就像提前进入所有常春藤联盟学校一样，因为这就是我长大的小镇上发生的事情。
And I look at them now and I'm like, "Wow, gosh, somehow it's not working out." And I think it's important for people to hear that, that yes, winning creates the propensity for more winning, but then why do you think it is that in a community where people are trained to solve problems, adapt, and make things work, some people flourish outside the military and some flourish less, and some we already talked about really go down the dark traps.
现在我看着他们，我就想，“哇，天啊，不知何故，它不起作用。”我认为让人们听到这一点很重要，是的，胜利创造了更多胜利的倾向，但是你认为为什么在一个人们接受过解决问题、适应和让事情顺利进行的培训的社区中，有些人在军队之外蓬勃发展，有些人则不太繁荣，而我们已经讨论过的一些人真的陷入了黑暗的陷阱。
What do you think is the quality that allows people to be really adaptable?
您认为什么品质能让人真正具有适应能力？
In particular, because most of us live in a landscape where we have to deal with people who are not us, like people that are not good at what we're good at, and sometimes that's an asset, sometimes it's not.
特别是，因为我们大多数人生活在这样一个环境中，我们必须与不是我们的人打交道，比如那些不擅长我们擅长的事情的人，有时这是一种资产，有时则不是。
You seem to be particularly good at understanding the human animal and working with that.
你似乎特别擅长理解人类动物并与之合作。
So again, this is a broad question.
再说一次，这是一个广泛的问题。
We're going very broad band here, and we'll get narrower again in a little bit.
我们在这里采用非常宽的频带，稍后我们将再次变窄。
But I'd love your thoughts on why is it, how is it, what determines whether or not somebody thrives in novel environments?
但我很想听听你的想法，为什么会这样，是怎样的，是什么决定了一个人能否在新的环境中茁壮成长？
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
I have to start off just by saying that I wrote a note as you were talking.
首先我必须说，在你说话的时候我写了一张便条。
I just put SEAL, and then I put the not equals sign.
我只是输入了 SEAL，然后输入了不等号。
Because you can't say that a SEAL equals anything.
因为你不能说海豹突击队就等于任何东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Excellent point.
很棒的一点。
Right.
正确的。
Yeah.
是的。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
There's guys that have been in the SEAL teams that are murderers.
海豹突击队中有些人是杀人犯。
Like there's-
就像有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like real-life murderers.
就像现实生活中的杀人犯一样。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Like murderers.
就像杀人犯一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Like rapists and murderers that went through SEAL training, rapist murderers, and they're in prison for the rest of their lives.
就像接受过海豹突击队训练的强奸犯和杀人犯、强奸杀人犯一样，他们的余生都在监狱里。
Like that's a thing.
就像那是一件事。
There's people that have been in the SEAL teams that got kicked out of the SEAL teams for drugs and you name it, and we've got that.
有些曾在海豹突击队服役的人因为毒品而被开除出海豹突击队，凡是你能想到的，我们都有。
And we've got guys that are just lazy, and we've got guys that it just, it's-
我们有些人只是懒惰，有些人只是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And physicians, you could say this about physicians.
至于医生，你可以这样说医生。
There have been sociopathic serial killer physicians, and then there are ones that are in third-world countries right now that would not accept a billion dollars to stop serving people at the level of the basic medicine that they-
曾经有一些反社会的连环杀手医生，还有一些现在在第三世界国家的医生，他们不愿意接受十亿美元来停止为人们提供基本医学水平的服务——
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
they deserve.
他们应得的。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah.
是的。
There's the SEALs that get out and just volunteer to go help in the worst places in the world.
有些海豹突击队队员走出去，自愿去世界上最糟糕的地方提供帮助。
So you've got a full spectrum of people.
所以你拥有各种各样的人。
So to say a SEAL equals success in any domain, the only domain you can say that they're successful is they made it through basic SEAL training, because guys make it through basic SEAL training and they're not good SEALs.
所以说海豹突击队在任何领域都等于成功，唯一可以说他们成功的领域是他们通过了基本的海豹突击队训练，因为人们通过了基本的海豹突击队训练，但他们不是优秀的海豹突击队队员。
That happens.
就会发生这种情况。
So you get guys that make it through basic SEAL training, and they make it through SEAL qualification training, and they make it to a SEAL team, and they get kicked out of the SEAL teams because they're not good SEALs.
因此，有些人通过了基本的海豹突击队训练，他们通过了海豹突击队资格训练，他们进入了海豹突击队，但他们被踢出了海豹突击队，因为他们不是优秀的海豹突击队队员。
They weren't meant to do that job.
他们本来不应该做这项工作。
That happens.
就会发生这种情况。
So all they've proven by making it through basic SEAL training is they can kind of suck it up for a while.
因此，他们通过基本的海豹突击队训练所证明的就是他们可以忍受一段时间。
And there's also guys that make it through basic SEAL training because they learned how to maneuver through the system.
还有一些人通过了海豹突击队的基本训练，因为他们学会了如何在系统中进行机动。
They learned what to do and what the minimum requirements were and how they could skate through this.
他们了解了该做什么、最低要求是什么以及如何度过难关。
There's guys like that.
有这样的家伙。
It's not a huge number, but they're absolutely there.
这个数字虽然不是很大，但绝对存在。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We see them in science.
我们在科学中看到了它们。
People that go to a lab, figure out who the director of the lab is at the level of psychology, and this is actually one of the more dangerous aspects of science.
人们去实验室，从心理学的角度弄清楚谁是实验室的主任，这实际上是科学中更危险的方面之一。
It actually negatively impacts all of society .
它实际上对整个社会产生了负面影响。
I'll just say it, and any scientist will know what I'm talking about.
我就这么说，任何科学家都会知道我在说什么。
They find the big famous labs, they figure out who that leader of the lab is, and they get that person the data they want.
他们找到了著名的大型实验室，找出了实验室的领导者是谁，然后为那个人提供了他们想要的数据。
They might not make the data up, but they will certainly discard the data that don't fit.
他们可能不会编造数据，但他们肯定会丢弃不合适的数据。
Which is one way of making data up by exclusion.
这是通过排除来弥补数据的一种方法。
It's not literally like painting pictures of cells that aren't there or something, but that happens a lot, and those people often go far.
这并不像字面上画不存在的细胞或其他东西的图片，但这种情况经常发生，而且这些人经常走得很远。
They rarely go all the way because pretty soon their reputation expands to the point where people go like, "Yeah, no one can repeat that result like that one." But these people sit in very high positions, not at Stanford.
他们很少一路走来，因为很快他们的声誉就会扩大到人们会说：“是的，没有人能重复那样的结果。”但这些人的职位非常高，而不是在斯坦福大学。
I will say I don't know any of my colleagues at Stanford that meet those criteria.
我想说的是，我不认识斯坦福大学的任何同事符合这些标准。
But you see them and you see what they're doing, and they're basically solving a social engineering thing.
但你看到他们，你看到他们在做什么，他们基本上是在解决社会工程问题。
They just happen to be doing it in science.
他们只是碰巧在科学领域做这件事。
Now, why anyone would do that in science, I don't know, because you don't get rich in science.
现在，我不知道为什么有人会在科学领域这样做，因为你不会通过科学致富。
You certainly don't get famous.
你肯定成不了名。
But for whatever reason, they figured it out that that's where they're going to do it.
但无论出于何种原因，他们发现这就是他们要做的事情。
And I'm sure you see it in law firms, I'm sure you see it in every single domain of life.
我相信你会在律师事务所看到它，我相信你会在生活的每一个领域看到它。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Everything.
一切。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Now, you pointed out that there's some people that make it to the Ivy League schools, and they graduate from an Ivy League school, and then they don't do well.
现在，你指出有些人进入了常春藤盟校，他们从常春藤盟校毕业，但他们表现不佳。
And to me, that's very similar to someone that might make it to the SEAL teams, do well in the SEAL teams, and then they get out and they don't do well.
对我来说，这非常类似于一个人可能会进入海豹突击队，在海豹突击队中表现出色，然后他们离开后却表现不佳。
It's probably because of what I talked about earlier when I went to Navy boot camp.
这可能是因为我之前去海军新兵训练营时谈到的。
Here's what you got to do.
这就是你要做的。
If you do it well, you'll be rewarded.
如果你做得好，你就会得到奖励。
Well, if you're in high school and your mom and dad say, "Hey, if you do good in high school, you're going to get into this Ivy League school, and you get into that Ivy League school.
好吧，如果你在高中，你的妈妈和爸爸说：“嘿，如果你在高中表现出色，你就会进入这所常春藤盟校，然后你就进入那所常春藤盟校。
And here's what you need to do in high school.
这就是你在高中需要做的事情。
You need to get good grades.
你需要取得好成绩。
You need to be part of the glee club.
你需要成为欢乐合唱团的一员。
You need to, whatever the things are that you got to do, you got to speak a different language.
你需要，无论你要做什么事情，你都必须说不同的语言。
You got to go volunteer in Guatemala in the summertime.
夏天你必须去危地马拉做志愿者。
You got to do these things, and then you'll get into the good college.
你必须做这些事情，然后你才能进入好大学。
Once you get into the good college, you got to get this degree.
一旦你进入好大学，你就必须获得这个学位。
Once you get that degree..." So they've had a path laid out for them of boxes to check, and they go and check the boxes.
一旦你获得了那个学位……”所以他们已经为他们安排了一条路径，让他们检查盒子，然后他们去检查这些盒子。
And then when they get done, no one has put any more boxes out in front of them, so they don't know what to do.
然后当他们完成后，没有人在他们面前放更多的盒子，所以他们不知道该怎么办。
And that can certainly happen from someone in the SEAL teams or someone in the military that what they've been, "Hey, this is your mission.
海豹突击队或军队中的某个人肯定会发生这种情况，“嘿，这就是你的使命。
This is what you got to do.
这就是你必须要做的。
Here's what you need to do.
这就是你需要做的。
Do it well.
好好做吧。
Check the box, check the box, check the box, check the box." Then it's time to retire, and there's no one putting a box in front of them to check.
勾选方框，勾选方框，勾选方框，勾选方框。”然后就到了退休的时候了，没有人在他们面前放一个盒子来检查。
And so unless someone-- Some guys get out of the SEAL teams and they go into a big corporate structure and they kick ass because there's someone in the corporate world saying, "Hey, here's what you got to do next." And they do great.
因此，除非有人——有些人离开了海豹突击队，进入了一个大型企业结构，他们踢得很厉害，因为企业界有人说，“嘿，这就是你下一步要做的事情。”他们做得很好。
And that's super good for them, and they actually really like it.
这对他们来说非常好，他们真的很喜欢它。
I was talking to a guy the other day.
前几天我和一个人聊天。
He's like full on in a corporation.
他就像在一家公司里忙碌着一样。
He's doing a great job.
他做得很好。
He likes what he's doing.
他喜欢他正在做的事情。
It's awesome.
太棒了。
But I think you get some guys that they don't really have the open mind to see where opportunities are, and they-- One thing that's nice about the SEAL teams is you get a lot of freedom of maneuver, right?
但我认为有些人并没有真正以开放的心态来看待机会在哪里，而他们——海豹突击队的好处之一就是你有很大的机动自由，对吗？
You can really do a lot of stuff that you kind of want to do.
你真的可以做很多你想做的事情。
And so when they look at the corporate world, they don't see that, and they think, "Oh, I'm not going to do that." But then they're not quite sure how to take the next step.
因此，当他们观察企业界时，他们看不到这一点，他们会想，“哦，我不会那样做。”但随后他们不太确定如何采取下一步。
So I think that's why you might see some guys that aren't super successful because they don't really know what to do, and they don't really have a mind that's open to look for opportunities.
所以我认为这就是为什么你可能会看到一些人并不是非常成功，因为他们并不真正知道该做什么，而且他们也没有真正开放的心态来寻找机会。
And also you got some guys that success for them is they're going to hang out with their family and they're going to get in good shape and they're going to run some triathlons or compete in whatever they're going to do.
还有一些人认为，他们的成功是他们将与家人一起出去玩，他们将保持良好的状态，他们将参加一些铁人三项比赛或参加他们要做的任何事情。
They're going to go do it, and that's what they're looking to do.
他们会去做这件事，这就是他们想要做的。
Which is also awesome.
这也很棒。
Go take time.
去吧，花点时间。
Go enjoy your family, man.
去享受你的家庭吧，伙计。
You gave enough to your country.
你为你的国家付出了足够多的钱。
Go hang out with your kids.
和你的孩子一起出去玩吧。
That's success as far as I'm concerned, too.
就我而言，这也是成功。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I agree there.
我同意。
I know far too many people who are successful in their professional lives but who have very diminished personal lives, and it is not a pretty picture.
我认识太多在职业生涯中取得成功的人，但他们的个人生活却非常有限，这并不是一幅美好的画面。
You mentioned the parent kind of driving the kid, "Do this, do that." In that scenario, I sense tones of fear.
你提到父母会驾驶孩子，“做这个，做那个”。在那种情况下，我感觉到了恐惧的语气。
It's all about not being a failure.
这一切都是为了不成为失败者。
It's not actually about love of your craft or what you enjoy.
这实际上与对你的手艺或你喜欢的事物的热爱无关。
Pretty early in my science career, I learned that there are certain people who are just ambitious.
在我科学职业生涯的早期，我了解到有些人只是雄心勃勃。
They just like to win.
他们只是喜欢赢。
And I used to joke around, it's not polite, but I used to go, "You know what?
我过去常常开玩笑，这不礼貌，但我常常说：“你知道吗？
We should all just tell that person that the new cool thing is trying to understand the biology of like," and I would say feces or something.
我们都应该告诉那个人，新的很酷的事情正在尝试理解类似的生物学，”我会说粪便或其他东西。
And they'd probably work on it, and they'd be like, "Yeah, it's the greatest thing," because they actually don't care what they're working on.
他们可能会努力去做，他们会说，“是的，这是最伟大的事情”，因为他们实际上并不关心自己在做什么。
For them, it's just the hunt.
对于他们来说，这只是狩猎。
And I learned that actually people like that can serve an important role because, well, there's actually a whole microbiome.
我了解到，实际上像这样的人可以发挥重要作用，因为实际上存在一个完整的微生物组。
There are actually labs that do work on feces, so forgive me, my colleagues that work on microbiomes.
实际上有实验室在研究粪便，所以请原谅我，我研究微生物组的同事。
But in all seriousness, people who are just ambitious can be very effective because you put a problem in front of them, and it's like a dog that'll just retrieve.
但说实话，雄心勃勃的人可能会非常高效，因为你把一个问题摆在他们面前，就像一只狗会捡起来一样。
It's like they just go.
就好像他们就这样走了。
As opposed to love of retrieving for retrieving's sake.
与为了检索而检索的热爱相反。
It's like you give that same dog, the analogy here would be give that same dog a high jump, and they're into high jumping, right?
就好像你给同一条狗，这里的类比是给同一条狗跳高，它们就喜欢跳高，对吧？
Or whatever it is, or diving underwater.
或者无论是什么，或者潜入水下。
But I think of people more like animals and more like different dog species.
但我认为人更像动物，更像不同种类的狗。
Like we, as your case was with music, particular music and communities, or the example of shopping for the pants and that experience of the first time you tap into something that really feels kind of unique to you, you're like, "There's something here." To be able to find work that includes that but also is hard and also allows you to evolve over time, I think that's the real gift that I think most people are seeking.
就像我们一样，正如您的案例涉及音乐，特定的音乐和社区，或者购买裤子的例子，以及您第一次接触对您来说真正感觉独特的东西的经历，您会想，“这里有一些东西。”能够找到包含这些内容的工作，但也很困难，而且还能让你随着时间的推移而发展，我认为这才是大多数人正在寻求的真正的礼物。
And of course, there's no shortcut to that except perhaps one, which is to be able to sense the difference between ambition and there's no better word for it, let's just call it what it is, which is love.
当然，没有捷径可走，除了一个，那就是能够感觉到野心之间的区别，没有更好的词来形容它，我们就称其为爱吧。
Like I love this.
就像我喜欢这个一样。
And the reason I think that love is so powerful, and here I'm sounding like Lex Fridman , but I don't mean interrelational love.
我认为爱是如此强大的原因，在这里我听起来像莱克斯·弗里德曼，但我指的不是相互关系的爱。
I mean like sort of that being able to sense what that feels like is that I do believe that it allows us to tap into an enormous number of things that fear alone and ambition alone and just being a hard-driving person alone will not allow us to tap into.
我的意思是，能够感觉到那种感觉，我确实相信它让我们能够利用大量的东西，而这些东西仅靠恐惧和野心是无法实现的，而仅仅作为一个努力的人是不允许我们利用的。
Things like adaptiveness, creativity.
比如适应性、创造力。
And I think there's a really obvious reason for it, which is that the one thing we know about our species is that we want to make more of ourselves and to take good care of our young.
我认为其中有一个非常明显的原因，那就是我们对我们这个物种所了解的一件事是我们想要让自己变得更好并照顾好我们的后代。
Whether or not everyone has kids or not is irrelevant.
每个人是否有孩子都无关紧要。
The point is that every species not only wants to do that, but need to do that.
关键是每个物种不仅想这样做，而且需要这样做。
And the feeling of love is really what allows us to be adaptable.
爱的感觉确实让我们能够适应。
I don't think there's anything that trains up adaptability as much as being around kids.
我认为没有什么比和孩子在一起更能训练适应能力了。
You just have to be adaptable, right?
你只需要适应，对吗？
Because one moment they're up, then they're down, then they're disappointed.
因为他们先是上升，然后又下降，然后他们感到失望。
And you shared a really important story about loss of somebody that clearly you loved and that clearly loved the community he worked in.
你分享了一个非常重要的故事，关于失去一个你显然爱过的人和他所工作的社区的人。
It wasn't just that you guys loved him, it's that he loved you guys.
不只是你们爱他，他也爱你们。
And I think that being able to tap into these feelings of love for things, for people, and for experiences, I think is so critical.
我认为能够利用这些对事物、对人、对经历的热爱是非常重要的。
And I don't meditate much these days, but I have heard of this love and kindness meditation, and it would sound so soft to me.
这些天我很少冥想，但我听说过这种爱和仁慈的冥想，它对我来说听起来很柔和。
I was thinking like, "Gosh, what am I supposed to do then?
我当时想，“天啊，那我该怎么办？
Levitate at the end and wear a muumuu," or whatever it's called.
最后悬浮并戴上 muumuu，”或者不管它叫什么。
I don't know what's the thing.
我不知道是怎么回事。
But my friend, who I'm fortunate to call a friend, not trying to name-drop here, but I'm very fortunate to call Rick Rubin, the music producer, a friend, and he was the one who started turning me on to different forms of meditation, the ones I mentioned before, and this idea that there are forms of meditation which put us in touch with what he calls the source.
但是我的朋友，我很幸运地称他为朋友，我不想在这里提及名字，但我很幸运地称音乐制作人里克·鲁宾为朋友，他是那个让我开始接触不同形式的冥想的人，我之前提到过的那些，以及这种想法，即有一些冥想形式可以让我们接触到他所说的源头。
Now, this is really getting a little mystical, but I think this all maps back to the same thing, which is that there are sources of dopamine and the other neurotransmitters in us that give us kind of a superpower to adapt to anything.
现在，这确实有点神秘，但我认为这一切都映射回同一件事，那就是我们体内存在多巴胺和其他神经递质的来源，它们赋予我们适应任何事物的超能力。
And I think it at least includes love because that's the most adaptable emotion, by definition, because of what's required for evolution.
我认为它至少包括爱，因为根据定义，这是最具适应性的情感，因为这是进化所需要的。
So the question therefore is, in yourself and in your observation of people that you've worked with, did you ever sense that just being hard-driving was kind of, it was great, but it was limiting?
因此，问题是，在你自己以及你对与你共事的人的观察中，你是否曾经感觉到，努力工作是一种，它很棒，但它是有限的？
Did you ever sense that by liking the people you work with, you could perform much better, even if they perhaps were not as hard, to kind of borrow the common parlance around this, they weren't as hard as everybody else, that because you like each other so, so much that you can kind of do anything?
你有没有感觉到，通过喜欢和你一起工作的人，你可以表现得更好，即使他们可能并不那么努力，借用常见的说法，他们并不像其他人那么努力，因为你们如此喜欢对方，以至于你可以做任何事情？
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Well, if you have a team of 10 people and you all have a great relationship and you get along well and you're going against my team and we all hate each other, who's going to win?
好吧，如果你有一个 10 人的团队，而且大家关系很好，相处得很好，但你要与我的团队作对，而我们都互相憎恨，那么谁会赢呢？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The team that loves each other is going to win, I would hope.
我希望，彼此相爱的球队将会获胜。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
It's not even close.
还差得很远。
As a matter of fact, if you work for me and you don't like me, what kind of performance are you going to give me?
事实上，如果你为我工作，但你不喜欢我，你会给我什么样的表现？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's going to be tough.
这会很艰难。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
What if you love me and I've looked out for you and I've done everything for you and I've taken care of you?
如果你爱我，我照顾你，我为你做了一切，我照顾你怎么办？
What kind of performance are you going to give me?
你要给我带来什么样的表演呢？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Everything.
一切。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm like a dog.
我就像一只狗。
I'd die for you.
我愿意为你而死。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
So yeah.
所以是的。
And earlier you asked about the human animal and human nature, and this is part of leadership.
早些时候您问过有关人类动物和人性的问题，这是领导力的一部分。
I got asked this question the other day.
前几天有人问我这个问题。
I was working with a company, and the guy says, "How do I identify what are the characteristics of someone that can execute, and how do I identify those characteristics in a person so that I can get those people?" And I said, "Well, first of all, the characteristics are the characteristics that everybody's obviously.
我正在与一家公司合作，那个人说：“我如何识别可以执行的人的特征是什么，以及如何识别一个人的这些特征，以便我能够找到这些人？”我说：“嗯，首先，特征是每个人都明显具有的特征。
Someone that's driven, someone that can communicate well, someone that's going to make things happen.
一个有动力的人，一个能够良好沟通的人，一个能够让事情发生的人。
Those are pretty simple to know.
这些很容易知道。
We know what they are.
我们知道它们是什么。
How do you identify them?
你如何识别他们？
It's pretty simple as well.
这也很简单。
I give you a task.
我给你一个任务。
I give Andrew a task.
我给安德鲁一个任务。
It's a pretty simple task.
这是一个非常简单的任务。
If you get it done, cool.
如果你完成了，那就酷了。
Give you a little bit more complex task.
给你一个稍微复杂一点的任务。
Do you get it done?
你完成了吗？
Yes.
是的。
I give the same task to Fred.
我把同样的任务交给了弗雷德。
He doesn't get it done.
他没有完成它。
He comes back with a bunch of questions.
他带着一堆问题回来了。
He slow rolls it.
他慢慢地滚动它。
He's got all kinds of excuses and problems.
他有各种各样的借口和问题。
I give you an even more complex task.
我给你一个更复杂的任务。
You come back, you get it done, and then I'm going to realize, okay, Andrew's the guy that makes things happen.
你回来，你把事情做好，然后我就会意识到，好吧，安德鲁是那个让事情发生的人。
He's a guy that can actually execute." And it's a little bit what you said.
他是一个真正能够执行的人。”还有你说的一点点。
There's certain breeds of dogs, but even that is, they're not as different as human beings are, right?
狗有某些品种，但即便如此，它们也不像人类那么不同，对吧？
So now there are some guys, I've got Andrew who will make things happen.
所以现在有一些人，我有安德鲁，他会让事情发生。
Here's the problem with Andrew.
这是安德鲁的问题。
When I say, "Hey, Andrew, here's this nebulous idea that I have.
当我说：“嘿，安德鲁，这是我的一个模糊的想法。
Can you turn this into a reality?" And you're like, "Where do I start?
你能把这变成现实吗？”你会想，“我从哪里开始呢？
I'm not sure where you want me to go." Meanwhile, I gave it to the guy that didn't make anything happen with specific tasks that I gave him, and he comes back and I say, "Hey, I got this nebulous idea.
我不确定你要我去哪里。”与此同时，我把它交给了那个没有完成我给他的特定任务的人，他回来后我说：“嘿，我得到了这个模糊的想法。
Can you see what you..." He goes, "Oh, yeah." And all of a sudden, he takes it and he says, "Hey, I figured out a way to make this happen." So you might have someone that's very good at executing, but they're not very creative.
你能看到你……”他说，“哦，是的。”突然间，他接受了它并说：“嘿，我找到了一个方法来实现这一点。”因此，您可能拥有非常擅长执行的人，但他们的创造力并不强。
I might have somebody that's very creative, but they're not very good at executing.
我可能有一些非常有创造力的人，但他们不太擅长执行。
So what do I do?
那我该怎么办？
I build a team where I've got Andrew and Fred and they work together, and Fred comes up with good ideas and we bring them to Andrew, and Andrew goes and executes them.
我建立了一个由安德鲁和弗雷德组成的团队，他们一起工作，弗雷德提出好的想法，我们把它们带给安德鲁，安德鲁去执行它们。
So that's what we're doing from a leadership perspective, is we're letting people's nature execute and we're putting people into roles where their nature is beneficial.
因此，从领导力的角度来看，我们正在做的就是让人们的本性发挥作用，并将人们安排到对他们的本性有利的角色中。
I'm not going to take someone that's shy and introverted and put them out in a lead sales role.
我不会让害羞、内向的人担任销售主管。
I'm not going to take somebody that's boisterous and extroverted and put them into a cubicle where they're going to be looking at spreadsheets all day.
我不会把那些喧闹、外向的人放在一个小隔间里，让他们整天看电子表格。
Clearly, I'm not going to do that.
显然，我不会那样做。
So what we have to do as leaders is we have to find the right people for the right role, and we place them into those roles.
因此，作为领导者，我们要做的就是找到合适的人担任合适的角色，并将他们安排到这些角色中。
Now, does it mean that I abandon all hope that the guy that's an introvert will ever develop more communication skills?
现在，这是否意味着我放弃了对内向者发展更多沟通技巧的所有希望？
No, I'm still going to work with him, and over time we'll get him a little bit moving in the right direction.
不，我仍然会和他一起工作，随着时间的推移，我们会让他朝着正确的方向前进。
But I'm not going to take somebody that's a total introvert and turn them into a lead sales guy.
但我不会把一个完全内向的人变成一名销售主管。
That's not going to happen any more than I'm going to change a tiger's stripes.
这就像我不会改变老虎的条纹一样。
So that's what we have to do, is we have to help people, as leaders, we have to help people find the role and find the thing that they're good at.
所以这就是我们必须做的，我们必须帮助人们，作为领导者，我们必须帮助人们找到角色并找到他们擅长的事情。
Now, does that mean if I have someone that loves their job, they're going to do better at it?
现在，这是否意味着如果我有一个热爱自己工作的人，他们就会做得更好？
Absolutely.
绝对地。
Does it mean that if I have somebody that's driven just by achievement, that they're going to be good at their job?
这是否意味着如果我有一个只受成就驱动的人，他们就会擅长自己的工作？
No. In fact, well, they can be.
不。事实上，他们可以。
There's going to be certain roles I can put them in, right?
我可以让他们扮演某些角色，对吗？
If I've got a sales number I need to hit and Andrew's super into achievement, and he wants to be the golden child and wants to have his picture on the magazine that we put out about our industry, cool.
如果我有一个销售数字，我需要达到目标，而安德鲁的超级成就，他想成为金童，并希望将他的照片出现在我们发布的有关我们行业的杂志上，很酷。
I can throw this task at you and you're going to go and get it.
我可以把这个任务交给你，你就去接受它。
The problem is, if there's something that's going to take more perseverance and the reward isn't that high or it's a long-term goal, you're probably not the right guy for the job.
问题是，如果某件事需要更多的毅力，而且回报不是那么高，或者是一个长期目标，那么你可能不是这份工作的合适人选。
So liking your job is absolutely critical, and if you love your job, you're going to be able to You're going to be able to most likely excel at it.
因此，喜欢你的工作绝对是至关重要的，如果你热爱你的工作，你就能够在工作上表现出色。
Now, you could be an unfortunate person that loves your job and is not good at it.
现在，您可能是一个不幸的人，热爱您的工作但不擅长。
That happens occasionally, right?
这种情况偶尔会发生，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
But it-
但它——
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
I mean, it's like-
我的意思是，这就像——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It does, but it's pretty rare
确实有，但是很少见
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
...
...
it reminds me of your skateboarding career.
这让我想起了你的滑板生涯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
You loved skateboarding-
你喜欢滑板——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I did
我做到了
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
...
...
but you just weren't that good at it.
但你只是不太擅长。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I wasn't that good at it.
我不太擅长。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Unfortunately.
不幸的是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But you know what I loved more than skateboarding?
但你知道我比滑板更喜欢什么吗？
I loved the community I was in.
我喜欢我所在的社区。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I loved the community I was in, and I pr- and I probably would've gone to the industry side or worked on a company side and not been on the sk- actual skateboarding side, or just skateboard for fun.
我喜欢我所在的社区，我可能会去工业界或在公司工作，而不是去滑板界，或者只是为了好玩而玩滑板。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So there's a guy in the skateboard community, his name's Jim Thiebaud, and he's kind of the not-so-hidden secret in the, in that community.
滑板社区里有一个人，他的名字叫 Jim Thiebaud，他是那个社区中不那么隐藏的秘密。
He's an amazing guy, and he's sort of, early on left professional skateboarding to run a company, Real Deluxe, a bunch of other companies.
他是一个了不起的人，他很早就离开了职业滑板界，经营着一家公司，Real Deluxe，以及其他一些公司。
He's an amazing guy.
他是一个了不起的人。
And he told me, the oth- we'd become friends recently, and he said he realized he wasn't going to be one of the big guys, but he knew he wanted to be in this community, so he found his place.
他告诉我，我们最近成为了朋友，他说他意识到自己不会成为大人物之一，但他知道他想加入这个社区，所以他找到了自己的位置。
And I think everyone in skateboarding looks to Jim as like the guy who ca- he's, he cares ab- he truly cares about the sport and about the people.
我认为滑板界的每个人都认为吉姆是一个真正关心这项运动和人民的人。
And so he learned to kind of just wrap his arms and his heart around the whole thing, and it just works.
所以他学会了用双臂和全心全意地拥抱这一切，这确实有效。
And so I do think, everyone has a certain place, in a community or in a team.
所以我确实认为，每个人在社区或团队中都有一定的位置。
I think that as you're describing this, I have to imagine that people are listening and thinking, like, "Wow, this team thing is awesome.
我认为当你描述这一点时，我必须想象人们正在倾听并思考，比如，“哇，这个团队的事情太棒了。
Like, it's just amazing.
就像，这真是太棒了。
I wish I had that." Right?
我希望我有那个。”正确的？
I'm fortunate to have that in my podcast.
我很幸运能在我的播客中看到这一点。
I've had that in my lab.
我实验室里就有过这个。
Certainly in the, my podcast team, I would, I always say, "These guys go, I go." Like the, like it's not just the people that press buttons and run equipment, take photos.
当然，在我的播客团队中，我总是说，“这些人走了，我也走了。”就像，不仅仅是人们按下按钮、运行设备、拍照。
Like, they go, I go.
就像，他们走，我也走。
Like, they go, it's over.
就像，他们走了，一切都结束了。
And I'm fine with that.
我对此很满意。
I actually love that because it's, yes, it's about the podcast, but, and about the information and getting it out there, but it's as much about the team and working together, just like it was with skateboarding.
我真的很喜欢这一点，因为，是的，它是关于播客的，但是，关于信息和将其传播出去的，但它同样是关于团队和合作的，就像滑板一样。
So, hopefully I'm better at podcasting than I was at skateboarding.
所以，希望我在播客方面比在滑板方面做得更好。
I kept getting broke off, as the skateboarders say, in skateboarding too often.
正如滑板爱好者们所说，我在滑板运动中经常被折断。
But I want to ask, like in your family life, do you look at that as a team?
但我想问，就像在你的家庭生活中，你是否将其视为一个团队？
Like, do you think, like, "This is my team, and they're different, and how can we synergize?"
就像，你是否认为，“这是我的团队，他们与众不同，我们如何才能协同合作？”
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah.
是的。
And you've got to look at every team like that.
你必须这样看待每支球队。
What are the strength and weaknesses of the team?
团队的优势和劣势是什么？
And who's going to be good at what?
谁会擅长什么？
And how do you put people in positions where they're going to be able to excel?
如何将人们安置在能够表现出色的职位上？
I mean, what's his name, Thiebaud?
我是说，他叫什么名字，蒂博？
Is that-
难道是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Uh, Jim Thiebaud.
呃，吉姆·蒂博。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Jim Thiebaud.
吉姆·蒂博。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Imagine if he had a mentor that was only saying, "Listen, you got to be a pro skater.
想象一下，如果他的导师只是说：“听着，你必须成为一名职业滑冰运动员。
This is your only opportunity.
这是你唯一的机会。
There's nothing else." And he didn't have the ability to take a step back and say, "You know what, man?
没有别的事了。”他没有能力后退一步说：“你知道吗，伙计？
Like, I, I'm not that, I'm not going to be good enough.
就像，我，我不是那样，我不会足够好。
But I really love this industry." It, so luckily for him, he figured that out.
但我真的很喜欢这个行业。”幸运的是，他明白了这一点。
And you talked about the superpower of being, like loving your job.
你谈到了存在的超能力，比如热爱你的工作。
The one thing I claim to be a superpower is the ability to take a step back and detach, which I guess is going back to your meditation thing.
我声称拥有超能力的一件事是后退一步并脱离的能力，我想这可以追溯到你的冥想。
But being able to take a step back and look at your life and say, "Man, I've been skateboarding longer than that guy, and he's better than me.
但能够退一步审视你的生活并说：“伙计，我玩滑板的时间比那个人长，而且他比我更好。
And I've been skateboarding longer than that other guy, and he's better than me.
我玩滑板的时间比那个人长，而且他比我更好。
I, I'm probably not going to be...
我、我可能不会...
This is probably not the right job for me.
这可能不适合我。
What could I do where I could use my skill set?" And obviously, he had some entrepreneurial spirit and f- and was able to figure that out.
我可以用我的技能做什么？”显然，他有一定的创业精神，并且能够解决这个问题。
So being able to be a part of a team, and it, it's goes to what I was saying earlier about the mob.
因此，能够成为团队的一员，这就是我之前所说的关于暴民的内容。
Being able to be part of a team, part of the mob, part of the gang, but still have the ability to take a step back, detach from that, and assess what is the best way for this team to move forward.
能够成为团队的一部分，暴徒的一部分，帮派的一部分，但仍然有能力后退一步，脱离困境，并评估这个团队前进的最佳方式。
I mean, you could have this brilliant idea that from now on, you're going to make all of your podcasts about the molecular structure of whatever.
我的意思是，你可以有一个绝妙的主意，从现在开始，你将制作所有关于任何分子结构的播客。
A- and the rest of the team probably need to pull you aside and say, "Hey, man, like, I know you really care about that, and that's awesome, but everyone really wants to hear about this other stuff.
A-以及团队的其他成员可能需要把你拉到一边说：“嘿，伙计，我知道你真的很关心这个，这太棒了，但每个人都真的想听听其他的事情。
So let's tie it in together.
所以让我们把它绑在一起。
Let's expand what you, this specific thing you want to talk about." So being able to take a step back, detach, and see the bigger picture, to me, is the true superpower of life.
让我们扩展一下你想要谈论的具体事情。”因此，对我来说，能够退后一步、脱离现实、看到更大的图景，才是生活真正的超能力。
Of life, and it's a lot harder than it sounds.
生活，比听起来要困难得多。
And this goes back to when you t- start talking about people that are having, going through struggles in life, right?
这可以追溯到当你开始谈论那些正在经历生活挣扎的人时，对吧？
And I've described this before as if I'm looking at you, and you're in a bad state, right?
我之前已经描述过，就好像我在看着你，而你的状态很糟糕，对吗？
You're depressed, you're sad, you're moping around, you're not getting anything done.
你很沮丧，你很悲伤，你闷闷不乐，你什么也做不了。
And I'm looking at you from the outside, and I, and I'm thinking, for me, I see this storm cloud around your head, right?
我从外面看着你，我，我在想，对我来说，我看到你头上的乌云，对吗？
I see this storm cloud around your head.
我看到你头上有乌云。
And you're in there.
而你就在那里。
And all you see, no matter what direction you look, is storm.
无论你朝哪个方向看，你所看到的都是风暴。
All you see is darkness.
你所看到的只是黑暗。
I'm outside, and I'm looking.
我在外面，我正在寻找。
I'm like, "Hey, man, this guy's got a great education.
我想，“嘿，伙计，这家伙受过很好的教育。
He's healthy, he's got a good team around him.
他很健康，他周围有一支优秀的球队。
Like, he's got all these things going for him." But you, in that state, you literally cannot see anything but the darkness of the storm.
就像，他拥有所有这些东西。”但在那种状态下，你除了风暴的黑暗之外什么都看不到。
And that's what's so scary about when people enter that mode is you can look, I can look at it from the outside and be like, "Andrew, you just got to move, like, four feet forward, and you're going to be through this thing." And yet you're, you might hear me say that, and you go, "No, Jocko, I'm looking ahead.
当人们进入这种模式时，最可怕的是你可以看，我可以从外面看它，然后说，“安德鲁，你只需向前移动四英尺，你就会经历这件事。”然而你，你可能会听到我这么说，然后你就会说，“不，乔科，我在向前看。
There's nothing but darkness." So helping people move forward, take action, and be able to get that perspective, detach, and get outside themselves, get outside their own heads.
除了黑暗什么也没有。”因此，帮助人们前进，采取行动，并能够获得这样的视角，脱离出来，跳出自己的思维，跳出自己的头脑。
Tim Ferriss said, "Get out of your head, get into your body." That's one way to do it.
蒂姆·费里斯说：“走出你的头脑，进入你的身体。”这是一种方法。
Take action, go do things.
行动起来，去做事。
But it's very scary.
但这非常可怕。
And I'm sure you've had this experience where you're talking to someone that you know, a- and they're bogged down in whatever problem it is, whatever stress they're under.
我确信你有过这样的经历，当你和你认识的人交谈时，他们陷入了无论是什么问题、无论承受什么压力的困境。
A- and you're looking at them going, "Hey, man, no, it's going to be okay." Like, you can clearly see that whatever they're, whatever is bothering them and dragging them down, you can clearly see.
A-然后你看着他们说，“嘿，伙计，不，不会有事的。”就像，你可以清楚地看到，无论他们是什么，无论是什么困扰他们并拖累他们，你都可以清楚地看到。
You know, a lot of times it's a relationship, right?
你知道，很多时候这是一种关系，对吗？
The girl, the guy, they got dumped.
女孩，男孩，他们都被抛弃了。
And you go, "Hey, man, that person was a disaster anyways.
然后你会说，“嘿，伙计，无论如何，那个人是一场灾难。
You're better off without them." And they cannot compute that.
没有他们你会过得更好。”他们无法计算这一点。
They are stuck there.
他们被困在那里。
Or maybe it's the school that they didn't get into or the job that they didn't get, and they get so wrapped up in that, they can't get out of that storm.
或者也许是他们没有进入的学校或他们没有找到的工作，他们深陷其中，无法摆脱这场风暴。
And it's such a helpless feeling to sit there and tell someone, "Hey, you just move a little bit towards me, and you're going to get out of this storm." And it's so much easier said than done.
坐在那里告诉别人“嘿，你只要向我靠近一点，你就能摆脱这场风暴”，这是一种多么无助的感觉。说起来容易做起来难。
And that's why trying to engage with people and trying to give people that superpower of detachment where they can take a step back and say, "You know what?
这就是为什么要努力与人们接触，并试图赋予人们超然的超能力，让他们可以退后一步说：“你知道吗？
You're right, man.
你是对的，伙计。
That girl, she wasn't who I really thought she was.
那个女孩，她并不是我真正想象的那样。
I should move on." Yes.
我应该继续前进。”是的。
But easier said than done, and that's one of the biggest challenges I think that we have as friends and in parents and teammates, is helping people learn to detach, learn to see the bigger picture, learn to see that the problem that you have, that your whole world is actually not that big of a deal.
但说起来容易做起来难，我认为这是我们作为朋友、父母和队友面临的最大挑战之一，就是帮助人们学会分离，学会看到更大的图景，学会看到你所遇到的问题，你的整个世界实际上并不是那么大的事情。
I've written a bunch of kids' books, and one of the things that triggered me to write kids' books is realizing that one day my daughter came home, it's my oldest daughter, and she came home from school and she says, "I'm stupid." I said, "What do you mean you're stupid?" She, "I'm stupid.
我写了一堆儿童读物，促使我写儿童读物的原因之一是意识到有一天我的女儿回家，这是我的大女儿，她放学回家后说：“我很愚蠢。”我说：“你说你很蠢是什么意思？”她：“我是个傻子。
I'm dumb." "Why do you think that?" Whatever grade it is when you're supposed to know your times tables.
我很笨。” “你为什么这么想？”无论你在什么年级，你都应该知道你的乘法表。
"I don't know my times tables." I said, "Oh, well, how much have you studied?" She gave me the confused look.
“我不知道我的乘法表。”我说：“哦，好吧，你学了多少？”她一脸困惑地看着我。
"What do you mean studied?" I said, "Have you studied yet?
“你说学习是什么意思？”我说：“你读书了吗？
Have you made flashcards to learn them?" And she hadn't.
你制作了抽认卡来学习它们吗？”但她没有。
She thought she should just know them.
她认为她应该认识他们。
From the teacher went over what they are, now she should know them like some other kids in the class did.
从老师那里了解了它们是什么，现在她应该像班上的其他孩子一样了解它们。
And so I'm sitting there going, "Oh, yeah, cool.
所以我坐在那里说，“哦，是的，酷。
We'll make some flashcards." And she made flashcards, and she learned her times tables in 45 minutes, and we were good.
我们会制作一些抽认卡。”她制作了抽认卡，并在 45 分钟内学会了乘法表，我们表现得很好。
But what struck me was, to me, I was like, "Oh, no big deal." To her, it was her whole life.
但令我震惊的是，对我来说，我想，“哦，没什么大不了的。”对于她来说，这就是她的一生。
And then I got to see that with my other kids.
然后我和其他孩子一起看到了这一点。
Somebody said something to them in the recess yard.
有人在课间休息的院子里对他们说了些什么。
And I'm like, "Oh, screw that kid.
我就想，“哦，去死那个孩子。
Don't worry about them." But that's their whole world.
别担心他们。”但这就是他们的整个世界。
And that, unfortunately, doesn't only apply to kids, it applies to adults as well.
不幸的是，这不仅适用于儿童，也适用于成人。
And they get this problem in their world that seems so insurmountable and so massive because that little ecosystem that they're stuck in is their world, and they run into this problem and that, and it's disruptive in that world, and they don't know how to get out of it.
他们在自己的世界中遇到了这个问题，这个问题看起来如此难以克服，如此巨大，因为他们陷入的那个小生态系统就是他们的世界，他们遇到了这个问题，那个问题，这对那个世界来说是破坏性的，他们不知道如何摆脱它。
I did a podcast talking about these ecosystems that people get into, right?
我做了一个播客，谈论人们进入的这些生态系统，对吧？
And there's all these ecosystems.
还有所有这些生态系统。
You're in an ecosystem.
你处于一个生态系统中。
We're both in a shared ecosystem of podcasting.
我们都处于共享的播客生态系统中。
And we could be like, "Oh my gosh, Lex just came out with a new podcast, and it's been the biggest success, and what can I do to catch up with Lex?" And all of a sudden, I could get really bothered, you could get really bothered, we could be bothered by that and think, "Man, I'm a failure." Meanwhile, there's people that don't listen to podcasts.
我们可能会说，“天哪，Lex 刚刚推出了一个新的播客，这是最大的成功，我该怎么做才能赶上 Lex？”突然之间，我可能会感到非常烦恼，你可能会感到非常烦恼，我们可能会为此感到烦恼并想，“伙计，我是个失败者。”与此同时，有些人不听播客。
There's people that don't even know what a podcast is, and yet it's our whole world if we let it be.
有些人甚至不知道播客是什么，但如果我们顺其自然，那就是我们的整个世界。
You're in the academic world.
你在学术界。
Hey, you're a professor at Stanford, which is a big deal in that world.
嘿，你是斯坦福大学的教授，这在那个世界是一件大事。
I know people that don't give a rat's ass.
我认识一些不在乎的人。
They don't know where Stanford is.
他们不知道斯坦福在哪里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I get that all the time.
我一直都明白这一点。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
They don't know where Stanford is.
他们不知道斯坦福在哪里。
It's no big deal.
没什么大不了的。
In the SEAL teams, same thing.
在海豹突击队中，同样的事情。
Somebody has a problem in the SEAL teams, and they think, "This is the whole world, and I blew it." And now what are they going to do?
海豹突击队中有人遇到了问题，他们想：“这就是整个世界，我搞砸了。”现在他们要做什么？
When you're facing a significant problem in life, a relationship, a problem with a job, you got to remember that you're in one ecosystem.
当你面临生活中的重大问题、人际关系、工作问题时，你必须记住你处于同一个生态系统中。
And if you step outside of that ecosystem, no one really cares.
如果你走出这个生态系统，没有人真正关心。
And you could go move into a whole totally different ecosystem and find happiness there.
你可以进入一个完全不同的生态系统并在那里找到快乐。
But at least utilize that to get out of that storm cloud that you're in, and you're going to find that there's plenty of light out there in the world.
但至少利用它来摆脱你所处的乌云，你会发现世界上有充足的光明。
Move towards that, and it's going to be a much better situation.
朝着这个方向前进，情况将会好得多。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, in the spirit of authenticity, everything you're saying hits directly home for me.
好吧，本着真实的精神，你所说的一切都直接击中了我的要害。
I don't know what people's perceptions of me are.
我不知道人们对我的看法如何。
I actually try not to spend too much time thinking about that and just really try and stay in touch with the source.
实际上，我尽量不花太多时间思考这个问题，而只是努力与消息来源保持联系。
And I really do believe in this notion that our love of things is what can generate energy, and I try and use action to generate energy, but also, I happen to also love exercise, so that's an easy one there for me.
我确实相信这样一个观念，即我们对事物的热爱可以产生能量，我尝试用行动来产生能量，而且，我碰巧也喜欢锻炼，所以这对我来说是一个简单的运动。
But I try and stay in that mode.
但我尝试保持这种模式。
But to be quite honest, I've spent much of my adult life and probably too much of my teenage life and 20s, you're not quite an adult, right, in your 20s, at least I certainly wasn't, in challenging relationships.
但说实话，我已经在充满挑战的人际关系中度过了成年生活的大部分时间，甚至青少年和二十多岁的时间，你还不是一个成年人，对吧，至少我当然不是。
That admittedly were challenging because of my role in them also, of course.
当然，这确实具有挑战性，因为我也在其中扮演了角色。
Right?
正确的？
And each and every time, I remember thinking, moving on from this is like this insurmountable thing.
我记得每一次我都在想，从现在开始继续前进就像是一件难以克服的事情。
In part because I'm a caretaker and I cared and it wasn't just about me and a selfishness, it was about wanting to right all the wrongs of that person's past.
部分原因是我是一个看护者，我很关心，这不仅仅是关于我和自私，而是关于想要纠正那个人过去的所有错误。
I've found myself trying to be a time machine for people.
我发现自己试图成为人们的时间机器。
I've found myself trying to fix their family lives.
我发现自己正在努力改善他们的家庭生活。
I've found myself doing all of that and also ignoring all the things I need to focus on in terms of bettering myself and making sure I was showing up correct, and on and on.
我发现自己做了所有这些，也忽略了所有我需要关注的事情，以提高自己并确保我表现得正确，如此等等。
And there are data in the world of, in the form of these people that know me very, very well that I think would say that and a whole lot more, right?
世界上有一些数据，以这些非常非常了解我的人的形式存在，我想他们会这么说，还有更多，对吧？
The point isn't those specific relationships, but each and every time someone would come along and say, like, "Listen, if this isn't good for you, it's not good for them," or, "This is a bad situation," or, "This isn't serving either of you well." But I was myopic, like this big, and not even soda straw view of the world, like sand speck of the world, and trying to solve, because that's my nature.
重点不在于那些具体的关系，而是每次有人走过来说，“听着，如果这对你没有好处，那对他们也没有好处”，或者“这是一个糟糕的情况”，或者“这对你们俩都没有好处”。但我是近视的，喜欢这个大的、连苏打水都不如的世界观，就像沙粒的世界，并试图解决，因为那是我的本性。
Like, "I'm going to solve this.
就像，“我要解决这个问题。
I'm going to solve it.
我去解决它。
I'm going to solve it." And sometimes things were solved for some period of time, and sometimes they weren't.
我去解决它。”有时事情会在一段时间内得到解决，有时却没有。
And I think one thing that just as a confessional, like I will say I could really learn the art of detachment.
我认为有一件事，就像忏悔一样，就像我会说的那样，我真的可以学习超然的艺术。
I could really learn to focus on that more, if that's the proper language word.
如果这是正确的语言的话，我真的可以学会更多地关注这一点。
I think I'm pretty good at adapting, and I think I'm pretty good at finding good people.
我认为我非常善于适应，而且我认为我非常善于找到优秀的人。
I certainly love my team, and that all feels like natural synergy, although it's hard work in lab and in the podcast.
我当然喜欢我的团队，尽管在实验室和播客中工作很辛苦，但这一切都感觉像是自然的协同作用。
But I think the tendency that I have as a problem solver is to assume that every problem can be solved, and therefore staying on this problem until it is solved is the answer.
但我认为，作为一个问题解决者，我的倾向是假设每个问题都可以解决，因此，坚持解决这个问题直到它得到解决才是答案。
And maybe the art of detachment and getting some perspective would help, because if I look back, I certainly don't regret the experiences that I've had, but I wasted far too much time, and frankly, I probably wasted far too much of other people's time trying to solve problems that could not be solved.
也许超然的艺术和获得一些观点会有所帮助，因为如果我回顾过去，我当然不会后悔我所经历的经历，但我浪费了太多时间，坦率地说，我可能浪费了太多其他人的时间来试图解决无法解决的问题。
And I think without going into this in any more detail, and of course, you can send me a bill at the end, by the way.
我想不用再详细讨论这个问题了，当然，顺便说一句，你可以在最后给我寄一张账单。
I think this is some-
我认为这是一些——
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Confessions are free, man.
忏悔是免费的，伙计。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
So I think that being a problem solver is great.
所以我认为成为一个问题解决者是很棒的。
Being forward center of mass is great.
成为前方的质心很棒。
I think learning the systems of the brain and body and understanding psychology and learning about oneself, The Oracle had it right, know thyself in ways that you can maneuver functionally in your life and career and relationship, et cetera, great.
我认为学习大脑和身体的系统，理解心理学，了解自己，神谕说得对，以你可以在生活、职业和人际关系等方面发挥作用的方式了解自己，非常棒。
But I think there's also a downside to being overly fixated.
但我认为过度专注也有一个缺点。
Because my bulldog Costello used to be chewing on something.
因为我的斗牛犬科斯特洛过去常常嚼东西。
Next thing I know, he's chewing on his foot.
接下来我知道，他正在咀嚼自己的脚。
And you're like, "Hey." And you'd have to rip him off his own foot, and he'd be like because that chew reflex was just so strong that sometimes it would turn on himself.
你就像，“嘿。”你必须把他从自己的脚上撕下来，他会这样，因为咀嚼反射太强烈了，有时它会攻击自己。
And that's kind of how it feels.
这就是感觉。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah.
是的。
I wrote a book called "Leadership: Strategy and Tactics" and one of the things that I wrote about in that book is understanding what's important and what's not.
我写了一本名为《领导力：战略与战术》的书，我在那本书中写的内容之一就是了解什么是重要的，什么是不重要的。
And this is very similar to what you're talking about.
这与你所说的非常相似。
Looking at a problem and taking a step back and going, well, A, is this important or not?
审视一个问题，然后退一步思考，嗯，A，这重要还是不重要？
And B, is this solvable or is it not?
B，这个问题可以解决吗？
And C, what's the ROI on getting it solved, and what's the effort it's going to take to get this problem solved, and how much is this really going to impact my world and my life if I focus on it?
C，解决这个问题的投资回报率是多少，解决这个问题需要付出什么努力，如果我专注于它，这会对我的世界和我的生活产生多大的影响？
So knowing and understanding when something's important or not is a very good skill.
因此，知道并理解某件事何时重要或不重要是一项非常好的技能。
And again, it's a skill that's directly related to detachment.
再说一次，这是一项与超然直接相关的技能。
Because when you're in that relationship, this is another thing I've been telling people lately, the solution to your problem is not going to be found in the problem.
因为当你处于这种关系中时，这是我最近告诉人们的另一件事，你的问题的解决方案不会在问题中找到。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
It's not going to be found in there.
在那里不会发现它。
You have to get out of the problem so that you can look at it, make an assessment, and you can assess how to solve the problem or whether you need to solve the problem or not.
你要从问题中走出来，你才能看问题，才能评估，你才能评估如何解决问题，是否需要解决问题。
There's a lot of things in my life right now where I shrug my shoulders and go, "Okay." It's okay.
现在，在我的生活中，有很多事情我都会耸耸肩，然后说：“好吧。”没关系。
"Oh, someone's saying this." Okay.
“哦，有人这么说。”好的。
Roger that.
收到。
Carry on.
继续。
No factor.
没有因素。
Move on.
继续前行。
And then occasionally you go, okay, this is something I need to contend with.
然后偶尔你会说，好吧，这是我需要应对的事情。
This is something I need to deal with.
这是我需要处理的事情。
This is something I need to shape or adjust or move or solve, to use your word.
这是我需要塑造、调整、移动或解决的事情，用你的话来说。
The reason I laugh when I say that is because problems, you have to get in there, but if you take a step back, you can usually say, oh, little adjustment here, a little adjustment there, and that thing's going to sort itself out.
当我这么说时，我笑的原因是因为出现问题，你必须进入那里，但如果你退后一步，你通常可以说，哦，这里稍微调整一下，那里调整一下，事情就会自行解决。
So detachment is a superpower, man.
所以超然是一种超能力，伙计。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It certainly is, and it's certainly one that I need to focus on more.
确实如此，而且这肯定是我需要更多关注的问题。
I'm grateful for you bringing that up.
我很感激你提出这个问题。
This is the biologist in me, but what is your process for engaging detachment or for disengaging?
这就是我身上的生物学家，但你进行超然或脱离的过程是什么？
Is it an active process where you go, I'm going to detach from this.
这是一个活跃的过程吗？我将脱离它。
I'm going to put myself in a situation that is pulling on me.
我会把自己置于一种对我有吸引力的境地。
There's this gravitational force, and I'm going to, I don't know, create some imagery in my mind of walking away from it.
有这种引力，我不知道，我会在脑海中创造一些远离它的意象。
Do I physically walk away from it?
我会从身体上走开吗？
Do I outsource it to somebody else?
我是否将其外包给其他人？
What are some tools for detachment?
分离的工具有哪些？
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah.
是的。
This is one of those situations where you and I had a discussion about the science and the practical application aligned.
这是你和我就科学和实际应用进行讨论的情况之一。
So my original experience with detachment was, and this is one of those moments where, you know I said a lot of times things are just small moments over time and you make a little adjustment.
所以我最初的超然经历是，这是那些时刻之一，你知道我说过很多时候事情只是随着时间的推移而发生的小时刻，你需要做出一些调整。
This is one of those moments in my life, and I wrote about leadership strategy and tactics, where I recognized in a moment what detachment was and how helpful it was.
这是我生命中的那些时刻之一，我写了有关领导战略和战术的文章，在那一刻我认识到了超然是什么以及它有多么有帮助。
I'm on an oil rig doing a training mission.
我在石油钻井平台上执行训练任务。
My whole platoon is in a skirmish line looking at a large area of the oil rig that we're supposed to be clearing.
我的整个排都在小冲突线上，看着我们应该清理的石油钻井平台的大片区域。
Again, this is not combat.
再次强调，这不是战斗。
This is in the '90s.
这是九十年代的事。
There's nothing going on.
什么事也没有发生。
We're just doing training.
我们只是在训练。
And I'm standing in this skirmish line.
而我就站在这条冲突线上。
And by the way, I'm the youngest and most junior guy in my platoon, and I'm standing there looking down the sight of my weapon, and I'm waiting for someone to make a call and tell us what to do.
顺便说一句，我是我们排中最年轻、资历最浅的人，我站在那里，低头看着我的武器，等待有人打电话告诉我们该怎么做。
And I wait for five seconds, and I wait for 10 seconds, and I wait for 20 seconds, and no one's saying anything.
我等了 5 秒，等了 10 秒，又等了 20 秒，没有人说什么。
And we're waiting for a leader in my platoon to make a call to tell us what to do, to tell me what to do.
我们正在等待排长打电话告诉我们该做什么，告诉我该做什么。
And finally, after 30 seconds, which seems like an eternity, I can't take it anymore.
最后，30 秒之后，我再也无法忍受了，这似乎是一个漫长的时间。
And so I take a step, like a one-foot step, 12 inches.
于是我迈出了一步，就像单脚迈出的一步一样，12英寸。
I take a step off the skirmish line.
我离开了冲突线。
I look to my left, I look to my right, and what I see is every other guy in my platoon is staring down their weapon.
我向左看，向右看，我看到排里的其他人都盯着他们的武器。
Staring down the sight of their weapon, which means their field of view is tiny.
盯着武器的视线，这意味着他们的视野很小。
It's like a 20-degree field of view.
就像20度的视野一样。
You're looking down the scope of your weapon or the sight of your weapon, and that's how big their field of view is.
你向下看你的武器的范围或武器的视线，这就是他们的视野有多大。
And I'm looking and I'm thinking, oh, there's my platoon commander.
我边看边想，哦，那是我的排长。
He's looking down the sight of his weapon.
他低头看着他的武器。
There's my platoon chief.
那是我的排长。
He's looking down the sight of his weapon.
他低头看着他的武器。
There's my leading petty officer.
这是我的领导士官。
He's looking down the sight of his weapon.
他低头看着他的武器。
There's my assistant platoon commander.
这是我的副排长。
He's looking down the-- So everyone in the platoon is looking down the sight of their weapon, which means they all have a very narrow field of vision.
他俯视着——所以排中的每个人都俯视着他们武器的瞄准器，这意味着他们的视野都非常狭窄。
Well, when I take a step back and look to my left and look to my right, guess what kind of field of vision I got?
好吧，当我后退一步，向左看，向右看时，猜猜我的视野是什么样的？
I got a massive one.
我得到了一个巨大的。
I can see the whole scene, and I can see exactly what it is we need to do.
我可以看到整个场景，也可以清楚地看到我们需要做什么。
And at that moment, look, as a new guy, you need to keep your mouth shut.
在那一刻，你看，作为一个新人，你需要闭嘴。
You don't say anything.
你什么也不说。
And I'm thinking, "Well, but no one else is saying anything." So I muster up all the courage I can, and I open my mouth and I say, "Hold left, clear right." Which is a basic tactical call.
我在想，“好吧，但没有人说什么。”于是我鼓起所有的勇气，张开嘴说：“向左靠拢，向右通行。”这是一个基本的战术呼叫。
This is not a patent-level genius maneuver.
这不是专利级别的天才策略。
It's just a normal call to make in a situation that we were in.
在我们所处的情况下，这只是一个正常的呼叫。
I say, "Hold left, clear right." And I'm expecting to get kind of slapped, told, "Shut up, new guy." But instead, everyone just repeats the call, "Hold left, clear right.
我说：“向左靠拢，向右让开。”我预计会被打一巴掌，并被告知“闭嘴，新人。”但相反，每个人都只是重复喊话：“向左保持，向右通行。
Hold left, clear right." And we execute the maneuver, and we finish the clearance of this oil rig.
守住左边，清除右边。”我们执行了演习，完成了这个石油钻井平台的清理工作。
And we get done, we get to the top of the oil rig, which means we cleared the whole thing.
我们完成了，我们到达了石油钻井平台的顶部，这意味着我们清理了整个东西。
We're on the helo deck at the top, and we go into a debrief.
我们在顶部的直升机甲板上，进行汇报。
And now I'm expecting, okay, now I'm going to get told, "Hey, what were you doing?
现在我期待着，好吧，现在我会被告知，“嘿，你在做什么？
You need to keep your mouth shut." And instead, the platoon chief goes, "Hey, Jocko, good call on the cellar deck down there." And I was kind of like, "Yeah, that's right." But then I thought to myself, hold on a second.
你需要闭嘴。”相反，排长说道：“嘿，乔科，在下面的地窖甲板上干得好。”我有点像，“是的，没错。”但后来我心想，等一下。
If I'm the youngest, most junior guy in this platoon, why was I able to see what we needed to do and make that call?
如果我是这个排中最年轻、资历最浅的人，为什么我能够看到我们需要做什么并做出决定？
Why did that just happen?
为什么会发生这样的事？
And then I realized it was because I took a step back, to use your term, I broadened my field of view, which allowed me to think more clearly, because instead of being hyper-focused and narrowly focused, I broadened my range of vision.
然后我意识到，这是因为我退后了一步，用你的话来说，我拓宽了视野，这让我能够更清晰地思考，因为我不再过度专注和狭隘专注，而是拓宽了视野。
I took a breath before I made my call.
在我打电话之前我吸了一口气。
I had to take a nice breath to speak clearly.
我必须深吸一口气才能说清楚。
And I realized that taking a step back and detaching, I got to see infinitely more than even the most experienced guys in my platoon.
我意识到，退后一步，脱离现实，我会比我排中最有经验的人看到更多的东西。
And I started doing it all the time, and I started doing it in land warfare.
我开始一直这样做，并且开始在陆战中这样做。
I started doing it in urban combat.
我开始在城市战斗中这样做。
I started doing it in all these tactical training scenarios.
我开始在所有这些战术训练场景中这样做。
These are just training.
这些只是训练。
This is the '90s.
这是 90 年代。
I started doing these training scenarios, and it always allowed me to see what we needed to do.
我开始做这些训练场景，它总是让我看到我们需要做什么。
And then I started doing it when I was having conversations with people and having a conversation with my platoon chief, and I can see that he's starting to turn a little red in the face, and we're about to argue about something.
然后我开始这样做，当我与人们交谈并与我的排长交谈时，我可以看到他的脸开始变得有点红，我们即将争论一些事情。
I said, "Oh, wait a second." I'm taking a step back, looking, going, "He's getting mad right now, and he's the platoon chief.
我说：“哦，等一下。”我后退了一步，看着，说道：“他现在很生气，而且他是排长。
You better just deescalate this thing real quick." And I'd say, "Hey, you know what, chief?
你最好尽快让事情降级。”我会说：“嘿，你知道吗，队长？
That sounds good.
听起来不错。
Let me go relook at the plan," or whatever.
让我去重新看看计划，”或者别的什么。
And so I started to do this with my normal life, was to not get wrapped up in my own emotions, not get wrapped up in the gunfight that was happening right in front of my face, not to get wrapped up in the details of what was going on, but instead, take a step back, detach, look around, and then you can make a much, much better decision.
所以我开始在正常的生活中这样做，就是不要沉浸在自己的情绪中，不要沉浸在眼前发生的枪战中，不要沉浸在正在发生的事情的细节中，而是退后一步，脱离，环顾四周，然后你就可以做出更好的决定。
And it's exponential.
而且它是指数级的。
If you're looking down the sights of your weapon and you take a step back and you look around, it's exponential how much more you can see.
如果你低头看着武器的瞄准器，然后退后一步环顾四周，你能看到的东西会呈指数级增长。
Now, listen, if you are the only person in a gunfight, it's going to be harder for you to do that because you've got to be focused on whatever you're shooting at.
现在，听着，如果你是枪战中唯一的人，那么你会更难做到这一点，因为你必须专注于你射击的任何东西。
But when you have 16 guys or 20 guys, they're all looking in the same direction, it's very easy to be the guy that goes, "I'm going to take a step back, look around, make a call." So when you talk about the mechanics, when I teach this to people now, the mechanics of it, take a step back.
但当你有 16 个人或 20 个人时，他们都朝同一个方向看，很容易成为那个人，“我要后退一步，环顾四周，打电话。”所以，当你谈论机制时，当我现在向人们教授这个机制时，退后一步。
Literally, you and I are at a meeting, there's a bunch of people, this starts to get a heated argument, I will literally push my chair back away from the table, change my perspective, open, widen my field of view.
从字面上看，你和我正在开会，有一群人，这开始引起激烈的争论，我真的会把椅子从桌子上推开，改变我的观点，开放，拓宽我的视野。
The other thing in the SEAL teams, you don't want to sound panicked on the radio.
海豹突击队的另一件事是，你不想在广播中听起来惊慌失措。
For a couple reasons.
出于几个原因。
Number one, because when you panic on the radio, it's going to cause other people to panic.
第一，因为当你在广播中感到恐慌时，其他人也会感到恐慌。
Number two, if you panic on the radio and you sound panicked, everyone's going to make fun of you.
第二，如果你在广播中感到惊慌并且听起来很惊慌，每个人都会取笑你。
So when you get back from the mission, everyone's going to go-
所以当你完成任务回来时，每个人都会去——
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
Tell the whammy
告诉凶手
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
...
...
yeah.
是的。
"You sounded like a baby out there." So what would I do before I would key up my radio?
“你在外面听起来就像个婴儿。”那么在打开收音机之前我该做什么呢？
Take a breath.
吸一口气。
And so here, I'm manually slowing down my breath.
所以在这里，我手动放慢呼吸。
I'm broadening my field of view.
我正在拓宽我的视野。
So if you're in a meeting or you're at the supermarket parking lot and someone starts to yell at you, take a step back, take a breath, broaden your field of view, detach from those emotions that you're having, and make some space.
因此，如果你在开会或在超市停车场，有人开始对你大喊大叫，请退后一步，深吸一口气，拓宽视野，摆脱那些情绪，腾出一些空间。
And that's how I go through the mechanics of detachment.
这就是我如何经历超然的机制。
Now, I can tell you right now, when you do this all the time, which I kind of do this all the time, I don't really have to step back.
现在，我现在可以告诉你，当你一直这样做时，我也一直这样做，我真的不需要后退一步。
But when you're starting to be able to try and do this, absolutely.
但是当你开始能够尝试并做到这一点时，绝对可以。
And I'll tell you, here's another weird little nuanced thing.
我会告诉你，这是另一个奇怪的微妙的事情。
Lift your chin up and put your hands down.
抬起下巴，放下双手。
Now, this is not in a combat situation, not in a fight, but here's the thing.
现在，这不是在战斗情况下，不是在战斗中，但事情是这样的。
When I get defensive, what am I going to do?
当我处于防守状态时，我该怎么办？
I'm going to raise my hands up and put my chin down.
我要举起双手，放下下巴。
That's like a fighting mode.
这就像战斗模式。
So if you and I are having a discussion and I'm starting to get heated and I'm starting to like, "Oh, he's not listening to me." Instead of me putting my chin down and putting my hands up to where I can put them in your face a little bit, no. I'm actually going to take a step back, I'm going to say, put my chin up.
因此，如果你和我正在讨论，而我开始变得激烈，我开始喜欢，“哦，他没有听我说话。”而不是我放下下巴，把手举到可以放在你脸上的地方，不。我实际上要后退一步，我想说，抬起下巴。
It changes my perspective a little bit more, changes my visual perspective, just by changing the angle of my head.
它稍微改变了我的视角，改变了我的视觉视角，只需改变我的头部角度即可。
Take a step back.
退一步。
Put my hands down.
把我的手放下。
I'm not being in a defensive mood.
我没有处于防御情绪。
I actually want to hear what you have to say.
我其实想听听你要说什么。
And if I start listening to what you have to say and not talking, it's very hard to be detached when you're talking.
如果我开始听你说的话而不是说话，那么当你说话时就很难保持超然。
It's another key component.
这是另一个关键组件。
You want to detach?
你想分开吗？
Shut your mouth.
闭上你的嘴。
So I'm in meetings in a bunch of different companies.
所以我在很多不同的公司参加会议。
I own a bunch of different companies.
我拥有许多不同的公司。
I'm in a meeting in my companies.
我正在公司开会。
I'm not the one that's doing all the talking.
我不是那个喋喋不休的人。
In fact, I'm doing mostly listening.
事实上，我主要是在听。
When I'm in Task Unit Bruiser, my task unit, I'm not sitting there giving the entire brief.
当我在“布鲁斯特遣队”（我的特遣队）时，我不会坐在那里提供整个简报。
No, I'm letting the platoon chief and the platoon commanders give those briefs.
不，我让排长和排长做这些简报。
And that way I'm detached.
这样我就脱离了。
I'm listening to what they have to say.
我正在听他们说些什么。
I'm more capable of seeing what holes there are in their plans by not moving my mouth, not talking.
通过不动嘴、不说话，我更能看出他们计划中的漏洞。
I'm listening.
我在听。
So those are some of the methodologies that I use and that I advise people to use in order to effectively start down the pathway of being able to detach in various scenarios.
这些是我使用的一些方法，我建议人们使用这些方法，以便有效地开始在各种情况下分离的途径。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love it.
我喜欢它。
Again, I'm saying I love it because I do love it, and thank you.
再次，我说我喜欢它，因为我确实喜欢它，谢谢你。
I think it's a wonderful technique.
我认为这是一项很棒的技术。
We've talked before on your podcast and some of my listeners, maybe not all, to this podcast will be familiar with the fact that when we narrowly focus our gaze on one target, a number of things happen.
我们之前在你的播客上谈过，我的一些听众（也许不是全部）都会熟悉这样一个事实：当我们将目光集中在一个目标上时，会发生很多事情。
Our visual world becomes constricted, of course, but also that we start slicing time more finely, and the dopamine system tends to start doing a kind of anticipation and trying to guide and direct things in that narrow tunnel of view, whereas when we literally take on panoramic vision, so not necessarily moving our head around, although one could, but broadening our field of view or looking at a horizon, especially if we're walking, but getting a broader field of view, we slice time differently.
当然，我们的视觉世界变得狭窄，但我们开始更精细地切割时间，多巴胺系统往往开始做一种预期，并试图在狭窄的视野中引导和指导事物，而当我们真正采取全景视觉时，不一定要移动我们的头，尽管可以，但扩大我们的视野或看着地平线，特别是当我们走路时，但获得更广阔的视野，我们以不同的方式切割时间。
Things don't feel as imposing on us.
事情对我们来说并不那么强加。
This is the physiological substrate underlying what you're describing.
这是你所描述的生理基础。
And I think it goes a step further because in that open, larger aperture of visual understanding, there's an open larger window of cognitive understanding and new options start to surface.
我认为它更进一步，因为在开放的、更大的视觉理解孔径中，有一个更大的认知理解窗口，新的选择开始浮出水面。
Right?
正确的？
I've long been fascinated by the fact that...
长期以来，我一直着迷于以下事实：
I'll tell this, a real quick story.
我会讲这个，一个非常简短的故事。
In 2015, I went over to Spain to do some mountaineering with Wim Hof.
2015年，我和Wim Hof一起去西班牙登山。
Okay?
好的？
This wasn't because I wanted a podcast.
这不是因为我想要播客。
I didn't have any social media.
我没有任何社交媒体。
I just went over there because I'd heard this guy, Wim, contacted him somehow, arranged a trip for myself, and I went over there and we did some crazy dangerous mountaineering that I had no business doing.
我只是去那里，因为我听说这个家伙，维姆，以某种方式联系了他，为自己安排了一次旅行，然后我去了那里，我们做了一些疯狂危险的登山活动，而我没有生意做。
Almost ripped my left leg off in a stunt that was organized by others there that I never should have done.
在一场由那里的其他人组织的特技表演中，我几乎不应该这样做，我的左腿几乎被扯断了。
In any case, one day I look and Wim is crouched on the ground next to a curb in this parking lot before a hike.
无论如何，有一天，我在远足前看到维姆蹲在停车场路边的地上。
And he's down there on the ground with a little stick and I was like, "What are you doing?" And he's like, "Look." And there were ants climbing up this thing, and he's like, "They're mountaineering this curb." And I thought, "This guy's different," right?
他拿着一根小棍子躺在地上，我问：“你在做什么？”他说，“看。”有蚂蚁爬上这个东西，他就像，“他们正在爬这个路边。”我想，“这家伙不一样，”对吗？
But then I realized we were about to do the same thing up this big face.
但后来我意识到我们将在这张大脸上做同样的事情。
And I thought, "Wow, he's able to think at these different scales and see similarities." I thought, "That's pretty cool.
我想，“哇，他能够在这些不同的尺度上思考并看到相似之处。”我想：“这太酷了。
I would have never stopped to look there." And I still remember it, right?
我永远不会停下来看看那里。”而且我还记得，对吧？
And was it profound?
其意义深远吗？
No. Was it interesting?
不，有趣吗？
Yeah, in the sense that things are happening at all scales all the time, and we think we know the scale to pay attention to, and we think that that's the one that matters most.
是的，从某种意义上说，事情一直在各种规模上发生，我们认为我们知道要关注的规模，我们认为这是最重要的。
And I think it's fair to say that in a gunfight, there is a scale that matters most, but new options, new perspectives actually come from that broader field of view, which is what you're describing.
我认为可以公平地说，在枪战中，规模是最重要的，但新的选择、新的视角实际上来自更广阔的视野，这就是你所描述的。
And later that day, it was interesting because this group going up, some of them were really challenged in the climb.
那天晚些时候，这很有趣，因为这群人在攀登时，其中一些人在攀登中确实遇到了挑战。
And Wim went back to this example of how the ants would stack on top of one another, and he used an analogy from that to help people through this climb, and there was a beautiful pool at the top, et cetera.
维姆回到了蚂蚁如何堆叠在一起的这个例子，他用了一个类比来帮助人们完成这次攀登，顶部有一个美丽的水池等等。
Anyway, I think that these examples are in fact meaningful, especially the ones that you gave, because they don't just relate to military.
无论如何，我认为这些例子实际上是有意义的，尤其是你举的那些，因为它们不仅仅与军事有关。
You can imagine around the dinner table, I've had this, kids are there and partner's there, and sometimes it's really nice to sit back and just kind of hear it all and bask in it all.
你可以想象在餐桌旁，我吃过这个，孩子们在那里，伴侣在那里，有时坐下来听听这一切并享受这一切真是太好了。
But oftentimes new information will surface.
但时常会有新的信息浮出水面。
Like you said, all I'm hearing is worries out of this person, or they're not even really here.
就像你说的，我听到的只是这个人的担忧，或者他们根本不在这里。
They're all talking about what we're going to do next, next time.
他们都在谈论我们下一步要做什么。
And kind of like you re-anchor people to like, "Hey, maybe let's focus on what we're doing here." Or sometimes people are hyper-focused on what's happening there, and they need to think about something in the future.
就像你重新定位人们喜欢的那样，“嘿，也许让我们专注于我们在这里所做的事情。”或者有时人们过度关注那里正在发生的事情，他们需要考虑未来的事情。
I love this.
我喜欢这个。
I need to practice detachment in a number of different domains in my life.
我需要在生活中的许多不同领域练习超然。
One thing that I'm realizing after hearing you describe the process that I really need to do is I need to start taking some time away from my work, maybe even a little bit of time parallel to relationship to sort of get better perspective on it, because I think the problem-solving nature in us really makes us myopic, really makes us nearsighted.
在听到你描述我真正需要做的过程后，我意识到一件事是，我需要开始从工作中抽出一些时间，甚至可能是与人际关系平行的一点时间，以便更好地看待它，因为我认为我们解决问题的本性确实让我们变得短视，真的让我们变得近视。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah.
是的。
You see this a lot.
你经常看到这样的情况。
I get to see this a lot.
我经常看到这样的情况。
We do events with companies, businesses, and we go off-site somewhere where they're detached.
我们与公司、企业一起举办活动，并且我们会去他们独立的地方。
They're de facto detached from their day-to-day business.
他们事实上脱离了日常事务。
You pull someone out of their business for two days, and all of a sudden they start seeing the solutions.
你让某人停止工作两天，突然间他们开始看到解决方案。
They never see them.
他们从来没有看到过他们。
It's a lot harder for them to see them when they're in the firefight.
当他们在交火中时，他们很难看到他们。
You get them out of the firefight.
你把他们从交火中救出来。
It's hard for them to see it when they're in that acquisition that they're doing.
当他们正在进行收购时，他们很难看到这一点。
"How are we going to merge these two cultures?
“我们如何融合这两种文化？
This is going to be impossible." Boom.
这是不可能的。”繁荣。
Pull them out.
把他们拉出来。
"All right.
“好吧。
Let's talk about the two cultures.
我们来谈谈两种文化。
And let's talk about what possible outcomes are." And all of a sudden, when you get them to take a step back, the solutions will appear.
让我们谈谈可能的结果是什么。”突然之间，当你让他们退一步时，解决方案就会出现。
And it is true in a gunfight.
在枪战中也是如此。
Now listen, if it's a one-on-one gunfight, even then, the ability to take a step back and look around or use your peripheral vision, you have to be able to do this.
现在听着，如果是一对一的枪战，即使如此，后退一步环顾四周或使用余光的能力，你也必须能够做到这一点。
It's going to increase.
它将会增加。
It's exponential how much it in- That's why it's like a superpower.
它的含量呈指数级增长——这就是为什么它就像一个超级大国。
It's like cheating.
这就像作弊。
It's like cheating.
这就像作弊。
Speaking of Seth Stone, Seth Stone took over, he became a task unit commander, troop commander when we got back from Ramadi.
说到塞斯·斯通，塞斯·斯通接任了，我们从拉马迪回来后，他成为了特遣队指挥官、部队指挥官。
And so now he's the guy in charge, and now I was running the training.
所以现在他是负责人，现在我负责培训。
And a couple of months into his training, he broke his neck, broke his vertebrae in his neck.
训练几个月后，他摔断了脖子，脖子上的椎骨骨折了。
His spinal cord was okay, so he was the guy with the big neck brace on, and he couldn't do any arduous training.
他的脊髓还好，所以他就是那个戴着大颈托的人，他无法进行任何艰苦的训练。
And his SEAL task unit, which is two platoons, was going through their land warfare training.
他的海豹突击队特遣部队有两个排，正在进行陆战训练。
And he couldn't do it.
但他做不到。
He couldn't carry a rucksack, couldn't carry a machine gun, so he couldn't do it.
他背不了背包，背不了机关枪，所以他做不到。
So I said, "Hey, I'm coming out.
所以我说：“嘿，我要出来了。
Let's go out, and you can observe your guys and see how they're doing." And so there we are, we're out in the desert.
我们出去吧，你可以观察你的队员，看看他们表现如何。”就这样，我们到了，我们在沙漠里。
His troop is going through field training exercise or full mission profile.
他的部队正在进行实地训练演习或完整的任务简介。
So it's like a big fake operation.
所以这就像一场大假手术。
There's a fake target, there's fake bad guys.
有一个假目标，有假坏人。
We're using these high-speed laser guns to shoot.
我们正在使用这些高速激光枪进行射击。
And we're kind of standing on this little berm, and at a certain point in the operation, his whole task unit, like 40 guys, gets pinned down in this little ravine.
我们就站在这个小护堤上，在行动的某个时刻，他的整个特遣部队，比如 40 个人，被困在这个小峡谷里。
And so we're kind of standing in the ravine with these guys, and no one's making any decisions.
所以我们和这些人一起站在峡谷里，没有人做出任何决定。
And the enemy with these laser guns are starting to maneuver and they're killing guys because these laser guns, you can die.
拥有这些激光枪的敌人开始机动，他们正在杀人，因为这些激光枪，你可能会死。
And Seth hits me on the arm.
赛斯打了我的手臂。
He's like, "Can I tell them what to do?" And I was like, "No. Look, let them figure it out." So another 30 seconds pass, another guy gets killed with laser.
他说：“我可以告诉他们该怎么做吗？”我当时想，“不。听着，让他们自己想办法。”又过了 30 秒，另一个人被激光杀死了。
He hits me again, "Bro, let me say something to him." And I was like, "No, let them figure it out." Another minute goes by, two more guys are now dead.
他又打了我一下：“兄弟，我跟他说句话吧。”我当时想，“不，让他们自己想办法吧。”又一分钟过去了，又有两个人死了。
Just laser dead, but they're dead.
只是激光死了，但他们已经死了。
And he hits me again, and he's like, "Bro, let me tell him." And I go, "All right, go ahead and tell him." And so he just crouches down next to one of the guys and bangs him on the shoulder.
然后他又打了我，他说，“兄弟，让我告诉他。”我说：“好吧，去告诉他吧。”于是他就蹲在其中一个人旁边，拍拍他的肩膀。
He goes, "Peel right," and which is, again, it's just a fundamental basic call.
他说，“向右剥离”，这又是一个基本的基本要求。
And the guy shouts it out, "Peel right," and they start peeling right, and another minute later, they're all out of the kill zone, and everything's okay.
那家伙喊道：“向右剥离”，他们就开始向右剥离，又一分钟后，他们都脱离了杀伤区，一切都好起来。
And then Seth looks at me, and he goes, "Man, this is so easy way up here." And I said, "Bro, look at where we are.
然后赛斯看着我，说道：“伙计，这真是太容易了。”我说：“兄弟，看看我们在哪儿。
We're in the ravine with the guys." Now we're on a knee, and the guys are laying down, but it's not this we weren't on some elevated position.
我们和那些家伙一起在峡谷里。”现在我们跪在地上，其他人也躺下，但这并不是我们没有处于某个较高的位置。
And I said, "Hey, it's not that we're in an elevated position, it's just that we're detached and looking around." And he goes, "Oh my God." And I said, "Hey, you remember when you and I went through this training?" And he goes, "Yeah." And I go, "This is what it was like for me all the time." I was constantly just looking around.
我说：“嘿，这并不是说我们处于高位，而是我们处于超然状态，环顾四周。”他说：“天啊。”我说：“嘿，你还记得你和我经历过这次培训吗？”他说：“是的。”我说：“这就是我一直以来的感受。”我一直只是环顾四周。
So that's why it seems like a magic power, right?
所以这就是为什么它看起来像一种魔力，对吧？
It's like a superpower because Seth's down there with his gun, and he's shooting, and I'm like, "Hey, bro, move your guys over to that.
这就像一个超级大国，因为塞斯拿着枪在那里射击，我就像，“嘿，兄弟，让你的人过来。
Go to that ridge line right there.
走到那条山脊线那里。
Set security." Boom.
设置安全。”繁荣。
And he, "How did Jocko see that?
他说：“乔科是怎么看到这一点的？
Jocko must be a tactical genius." No, I'm not a tactical genius.
乔科一定是个战术天才。”不，我不是战术天才。
I'm just taking a step back and looking around.
我只是后退一步环顾四周。
And like you just said, it applies to everything that we do.
正如您刚才所说，它适用于我们所做的一切。
If you're having a conversation with your significant other and you start to see that they're getting frustrated about something.
如果您正在与重要的其他人交谈，并且您开始发现他们对某些事情感到沮丧。
Now look, if you're in the conversation 100%, you're going to get frustrated, too.
现在看，如果你百分百地参与谈话，你也会感到沮丧。
You're going to get frustrated, they're frustrated.
你会感到沮丧，他们也会感到沮丧。
Next thing you know, you've got an emotional argument going on.
接下来你知道，你们正在进行一场情感争论。
Whereas if you can take a mental step back and say, "Wait, why are they frustrated right now?
然而，如果你可以退后一步说：“等等，为什么他们现在感到沮丧？
Oh, because I'm trying to solve their problem when really what they're looking to do is vent.
哦，因为我试图解决他们的问题，而他们真正想要做的是发泄。
Okay, got it.
好的，明白了。
Let them vent.
让他们发泄一下。
Okay, cool.
好吧，酷。
Oh, that sounds horrible.
哦，这听起来很可怕。
What do you think you're going to do?" Instead of saying, "Well, if that's the problem, here's what you should do," because people aren't always looking for that.
你觉得你要做什么？”而不是说“好吧，如果这就是问题所在，这就是你应该做的”，因为人们并不总是在寻找这个。
So yeah, this thing, this ability is...
所以是的，这个东西，这个能力是......
And it's something that can absolutely be trained, and that's what's cool about it.
这是绝对可以训练的东西，这就是它的酷之处。
It can absolutely be trained.
是绝对可以训练的。
It's not a natural gift.
这不是自然的礼物。
Some people will be better at it than others, but it's something that you can train.
有些人会比其他人更擅长，但这是你可以训练的。
And I used to see guys develop it, and I see people develop it now in the business world, where they'll report back to me.
我曾经看到人们开发它，现在我看到人们在商业世界中开发它，他们会向我汇报。
"Oh, we had a meeting with the union today, and the union started escalating what they wanted to do.
“哦，我们今天和工会开了个会，工会开始升级他们想做的事情。
And I detached, and we ended up de-escalating it, and now we got a solution." So this is an absolute skill set that can be learned, and that's what makes it especially nice because there's some people...
我脱离了，我们最终缓和了局势，现在我们找到了解决方案。”所以这是一套绝对可以学习的技能，这就是它特别好的原因，因为有一些人......
Look, if you're very articulate.
看看，如果你很善于表达的话。
Some people are born more articulate than other people.
有些人天生就比其他人更善于表达。
Some people are born with an ability to simplify things more than others.
有些人天生就比其他人更有能力简化事情。
And you can train, you can become more articulate.
而且你可以训练，你可以变得更加善于表达。
You can learn to simplify things more.
你可以学习更多地简化事情。
And some people are going to be naturally good at detaching, but everyone can get better at it, and that's a beautiful thing.
有些人天生就擅长分离，但每个人都可以变得更好，这是一件美好的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It is a beautiful thing, and I'm highly incentivized to do this.
这是一件美好的事情，我非常有动力去做这件事。
There are areas of my life that are going really well that I also want to apply it there.
我生活中的某些领域进展得非常顺利，我也想在那里应用它。
I think that I've tended to rely on people close to me as a way to access this detachment.
我认为我倾向于依靠与我关系密切的人来获得这种超然的感觉。
I will be very direct in saying that I am not the leader of my podcast.
我会非常直接地说我不是我的播客的领导者。
There is a leader.
有一个领导者。
It is not me.
这不是我。
I'm part of the team, but it is not me, and I often rely on his input, and sometimes that input is solicited and sometimes it's not.
我是团队的一员，但不是我，我经常依赖他的意见，有时会征求他的意见，有时则不会。
One place, for instance, where you see people getting really myopic is on social media, right?
例如，你会看到人们变得非常近视的一个地方是社交媒体，对吧？
And I've experienced this.
我也经历过这样的事。
I'd love to say that I'm always non-reactive, and I think in general, I take the stance that I have filters.
我想说的是，我总是不做出反应，而且我认为总的来说，我采取的立场是我有过滤器。
So I have filters.
所以我有过滤器。
I know why I'm there, right?
我知道我为什么在那里，对吗？
I'm interested in being a teacher and a giver and informing people about the beauty and utility of biology.
我有兴趣成为一名教师和给予者，让人们了解生物学的美丽和实用性。
That's why I say it's not a mission statement, it's a fact.
这就是为什么我说这不是使命宣言，而是事实。
That's what I care about.
这就是我关心的。
Anything that doesn't fit through that filter, I don't really have any business doing.
任何不符合这个过滤条件的事情，我都没有任何生意可做。
But occasionally I like to make a joke or something.
但偶尔我也喜欢开个玩笑什么的。
But occasionally something comes through, and I find myself going, "Wait a second," and you get sucked into that tunnel.
但偶尔会发生一些事情，我发现自己会说“等一下”，然后你就会被吸进那个隧道里。
And sometimes it's observing other people in tunnels, and when you're not in the tunnel, it's so obvious what's happening, right?
有时它是在隧道中观察其他人，而当你不在隧道中时，发生的事情就很明显，对吧？
And you're watching, in some cases, people just dragging their lives, in some cases, sinking their entire careers.
你会看到，在某些情况下，人们只是拖着自己的生活，在某些情况下，他们的整个职业生涯都被毁掉了。
The former chair of psychiatry at Columbia University in New York made an absolutely foolish, truly insensitive, totally inappropriate tweet.
纽约哥伦比亚大学精神病学前主席发表了一条绝对愚蠢、麻木不仁、完全不恰当的推文。
That's my opinion, and I think it was the opinion of all the people that fired him from his job.
这是我的观点，而且我认为正是所有人的观点才解雇了他。
This person was at the apex of his career, lost his job For saying something terrible.
这个人正处于事业的顶峰，却因为说了一些可怕的话而丢掉了工作。
And in retrospect was like, said something like, "I don't know what I was thinking." And so this guy's a psychiatrist.
回想起来，就像是这样说的：“我不知道我在想什么。”所以这个人是一位精神科医生。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So he lives in the study and the treatment of the mind.
所以他生活在心灵的研究和治疗中。
Which just goes to show that everyone, I think, is susceptible to being pulled into these tunnels, and fortunately, everyone is susceptible to learning to teach themselves how to ratchet themselves out of it.
我认为，这表明每个人都容易被拉入这些隧道，幸运的是，每个人都容易学会自学如何使自己摆脱困境。
So I love this idea of a teachable skill.
所以我喜欢这种可传授技能的想法。
I'm certainly going to practice it in one-on-one and in group situations, and in a variety of situations.
我当然会在一对一、小组以及各种情况下进行练习。
I think that the tunnel has a gravitational pull.
我认为隧道有引力。
There's like an allure to that tunnel, and I always just go right back to the neurochemistry.
那个隧道就像有一种诱惑，我总是直接回到神经化学。
I think that there's something about solving a problem inside of a tunnel, like an animal on a chase.
我认为解决隧道内的问题是有道理的，就像追逐动物一样。
But at some point, that animal could get picked off by a, or run over by a truck because it didn't have enough situational awareness.
但在某些时候，该动物可能会被卡车撞倒或碾死，因为它没有足够的态势感知能力。
I'm definitely going to practice this through opening the gaze, and broadening gaze.
我肯定会通过睁开眼睛、扩大视野来练习这一点。
And I think I also am due for a couple of days off from things to just walk and think about work.
我想我也该休息几天了，可以出去走走，想想工作。
On these retreats, do people work on work?
在这些静修中，人们在工作吗？
Are they just there to do other things and that's where the ideas surface?
他们只是在那里做其他事情，而这就是想法浮现的地方吗？
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
We'll do a little bit of both.
我们将两者都做一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
So we'll do some stuff that is focused on work, but then we'll pull out and do things that are completely unrelated to work, for that very reason.
因此，我们会做一些专注于工作的事情，但随后我们会抽出时间去做一些与工作完全无关的事情，正是因为这个原因。
Whether we do something physical, whether we do some kind of a mental exercise, but we do things that are completely unrelated to their work, and take those breaks in order for them to free their mind.
无论我们是否做一些体力活动，无论我们是否做某种脑力锻炼，但我们都会做与他们的工作完全无关的事情，并在这些休息中让他们释放思想。
And you know what bothers you about social media?
你知道社交媒体让你烦恼的是什么吗？
When you say there's some things that kind of make you mad.
当你说有些事情让你生气时。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, not me, but could be.
我的意思是，不是我，但可能是。
Of course.
当然。
Of course.
当然。
I'm human, little things creep in.
我是人，小事都会悄悄发生。
And it's not the things that are obvious.
这并不是显而易见的事情。
It's actually not direct critique of me.
其实这并不是对我的直接批评。
It's when people exploit misunderstandings to try and create a greater misunderstanding that doesn't exist.
当人们利用误解来试图制造一个并不存在的更大的误解时。
That's what gets me.
这就是让我着迷的地方。
Because to a scientist, that's like the most irritating thing.
因为对于一个科学家来说，这就像是最令人恼火的事情。
I don't know what the analogy would be in the SEAL teams, but it's like someone hijacking something that they didn't mean that, but then they kind of distort the argument.
我不知道海豹突击队的类比是什么，但这就像有人劫持了一些他们本无意的东西，但他们却歪曲了论点。
The word gaslighting gets thrown around a lot now.
“煤气灯操纵”这个词现在被广泛使用。
A lot of people actually think that anytime someone states a boundary, like, "No, I don't believe that's that," that that's gaslighting.
事实上，很多人认为，只要有人提出界限，比如“不，我不相信就是这样”，那就是煤气灯操纵。
Trust me, the psychiatrists who are all professionally trained tell me that is not gaslighting.
相信我，受过专业训练的精神科医生告诉我，这不是煤气灯操纵。
Gaslighting is a very particular thing where you're trying to alter someone's reality-
煤气灯操纵是一件非常特殊的事情，你试图改变某人的现实——
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in a very active, almost sociopathic way.
以一种非常活跃、近乎反社会的方式。
So that's a little editorializing right there.
这就是一些社论。
What bothers me is when people hijack.
令我困扰的是人们劫持。
Sometimes someone in an argument isn't as sophisticated with their language as somebody else, so someone will hijack that lack of sophistication and try and flip them on their back.
有时，争论中的某个人的语言不如其他人那么老练，所以有人会利用这种缺乏老练的感觉，试图让他们翻脸不认人。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Got it.
明白了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That sort of thing really gets under my skin because I feel that creates unnecessary divide.
这类事情真的让我很恼火，因为我觉得这会造成不必要的分歧。
There are a few other things, but I always joke in my lab and I'll say, "I have 3,000 pet peeves, but I also have like 3,000 flaws to match each one of those pet peeves." So.
还有一些其他的事情，但我总是在实验室里开玩笑，我会说，“我有 3,000 个讨厌的事，但我也有大约 3,000 个缺陷来匹配每一个讨厌的事。”所以。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah.
是的。
This is not just social media, but it's just life.
这不仅仅是社交媒体，更是生活。
When somebody says something about me or to me that I don't like, what I realized years ago is the reason I don't like it is because there's some truth in what they're saying.
当有人对我说了一些我不喜欢的事情时，我多年前就意识到我不喜欢它的原因是因为他们说的话有一定道理。
And the best thing to do is to say, either to yourself if you're by yourself or to them, is to say, "Yeah.
最好的办法就是对自己说，如果你独自一人的话，或者对他们说，“是的。
Yeah, you're right.
是的，你是对的。
I am kind of a knucklehead sometimes," or, "Yeah, you're right.
我有时是个傻瓜，”或者，“是的，你是对的。
I sometimes do jump to conclusions," or, "Yeah.
我有时确实会草率下结论，”或者，“是的。
Yeah, you're right.
是的，你是对的。
I was completely wrong about that." And that is just so much more liberating and healthy than saying, "You don't know what you're talking about," or, "No, I don't..." Just going into that defensive mode and trying to close your mind instead of opening your mind up to listen to what somebody else has to say, and say, "Yeah, that's a good point.
我的想法完全错误。”这比说“你不知道自己在说什么”或者“不，我不……”更自由、更健康，只是进入防御模式，试图封闭自己的思想，而不是敞开心扉去听别人说的话，然后说：“是的，这是一个很好的观点。
You're spot on with that one.
你很适合那个。
Next question.
下一个问题。
Next comment.
下一条评论。
Let's go."
我们走吧。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let's go.
我们走吧。
One thing I appreciate about you on social media is the limited number of words in each of your responses.
我在社交媒体上欣赏你的一件事是你每条回复的字数有限。
It's a great thing, and forcing you to be efficient and concise actually is a huge advantage.
这是一件很棒的事情，迫使你变得高效和简洁实际上是一个巨大的优势。
It also forces you to be precise, at least about category.
它还迫使你必须精确，至少在类别方面。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
I think there's something to be said for that.
我认为对此有一些话要说。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Well, there's a good example.
嗯，有一个很好的例子。
So I was on social, on Twitter the other day, since Twitter's getting a lot of traction right now.
所以我在社交媒体上，前几天在推特上，因为推特现在受到了很大的关注。
There's a lot of mayhem going on on Twitter.
Twitter 上发生了很多混乱。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The other gunfight.
另一场枪战。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
And somebody asked me, somebody said, "Hey, I'm going to boot camp soon.
有人问我，有人说：“嘿，我很快就要参加新兵训练营了。
What advice do you have for me?" And I wrote back, "Enjoy." Boom.
你对我有什么建议？”我回信说：“享受吧。”繁荣。
And like you said, it's Twitter.
正如你所说，这是 Twitter。
I'm responding to a bunch of people.
我正在回复一群人。
And then somebody else chimed in and said, "Might as well not even answer, Jocko.
然后另一个人插话道：“乔科，干脆不回答也好。
That's not helping this guy at all." And look at your face.
这对这个家伙根本没有帮助。”看看你的脸。
For those of you that are watching, your face just got a little bit mad, right?
对于那些正在观看的人来说，你们的脸有点生气，对吧？
You got a little bit defensive for me.
你对我有点防守。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, I think that's my nature.
嗯，我想这就是我的本性。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't like seeing other people sort of attacked.
我不喜欢看到其他人受到攻击。
I think that's just my nature.
我认为这就是我的本性。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
And I had a split second of "Who the hell is this guy?" And then I said, "You know what?
我突然想到“这家伙到底是谁？”然后我说：“你知道吗？
He's right." And then I tweeted again back.
他是对的。”然后我又发了一条推文。
I said, "Sorry, man.
我说：“对不起，伙计。
You're right.
你是对的。
What I should have said was, 'Hey, read the book "Leadership: Strategy and Tactics".' It's a good book for someone that is going to be in an environment that's going to be challenging, and we're going to be faced with leadership challenges.
我应该说的是，‘嘿，读读《领导力：战略与战术》这本书。’对于那些处于充满挑战的环境中并且我们将面临领导力挑战的人来说，这是一本好书。
And enjoy boot camp because if your mindset is this sucks and this is terrible, it's going to be terrible, and it's going to suck.
享受新兵训练营吧，因为如果你的心态很糟糕，这很糟糕，那就会很糟糕，而且会很糟糕。
And if you go with a mindset of, 'Hey, this is a cool experience and I should enjoy it,' you're going to have a much better time.' That's my full answer.
如果你抱着这样的心态：“嘿，这是一次很酷的体验，我应该享受它，”你将会度过一段美好的时光。这就是我的完整答案。
I'm sorry I didn't give you..." And it's perfectly fine.
很抱歉我没有给你……”而且完全没问题。
That guy was right to critique me, and he was right in saying that.
那家伙批评我是对的，他说得也对。
And what's funny is a bunch of other people came to my defense and said-
有趣的是还有一群人站出来为我辩护并说——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, yeah
哦，是的
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
...
...
"This guy, that's really great."
“这家伙，真是太厉害了。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
But my point is, instead of me getting defensive and crazy, and letting it drive me crazy, open my mind a little bit, listen to what they have to say- ...
但我的观点是，不要让我变得防御性和疯狂，让它让我发疯，而是稍微开放我的思想，听听他们要说什么——......
accept that there's got to be some level of truth in it, and there was.
承认其中一定有一定程度的真实性，事实确实如此。
I gave a guy a very terse response, and I could have expanded on it more, and I did.
我给了一个人一个非常简洁的回应，我可以进一步扩展它，我做到了。
No big deal.
没什么大不了的。
Good times.
美好时光。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A few minutes ago, I was thinking to myself, I wonder where your mind is at in the few moments before you fall asleep.
几分钟前，我在心里想，我想知道在你入睡前的那一刻，你的思绪在哪里。
Are you able to make yourself go mind blank pretty easily?
你能轻易地让自己大脑一片空白吗？
It's something I've been practicing more, because I tend to, again, ruminate.
这是我一直在练习的事情，因为我又倾向于沉思。
I like to drill into problems, obviously.
显然，我喜欢钻研问题。
Yesterday, I did a solo episode which, when we do those, they're usually anywhere from five to 20 hours of prep, and then the recordings, I won't say how long they take.
昨天，我做了一个独奏节目，当我们这样做时，通常需要 5 到 20 个小时的准备时间，然后是录音，我不会说他们需要多长时间。
But I love going into the tunnel, right?
但我喜欢走进隧道，对吧？
The tunnel, that's where the juice is for me.
隧道，那是我的果汁所在。
And finding the structure, and I have the benefit of an amazing producer who helps me sort through it, but I came out of this thing and then went home, couldn't eat, because I was just like, "I don't want dinner." And then I was explaining a call I had with a colleague the other day, and my girlfriend, she was just like, "Okay, I'm going to sleep." And I was up and texting and thinking and writing notes out, and I thought, oh, man, I'm like Costello, chewing on the stick and chewing into my pa.
找到了结构，我受益于一位出色的制作人，他帮助我整理了它，但我从这件事中出来，然后回家，无法吃饭，因为我就像，“我不想吃晚饭。”然后我解释了前几天我和一位同事的电话，我的女朋友，她只是说，“好吧，我要睡觉了。”我起床发短信、思考、写笔记，我想，哦，伙计，我就像科斯特洛，一边嚼着棍子，一边嚼着我的爸爸。
I need sleep.
我需要睡觉。
I need to go to sleep.
我需要去睡觉了。
So I think I have a bit of a harder time disengaging, clearly.
所以我认为我显然很难脱离。
And this is why I never touched cocaine or amphetamine.
这就是为什么我从未接触过可卡因或安非他明。
Because I think that some of us have a love of the dopamine circuitry, that I always sensed if I were to have tried drugs like that, that they might have been the thing that would hit my neural circuits just right.
因为我认为我们中的一些人喜欢多巴胺回路，我总是感觉到如果我尝试过这样的药物，它们可能会恰到好处地攻击我的神经回路。
Some people talk about alcohol that way.
有些人这样谈论酒精。
I've read books by alcoholics, like the book "Dry" and a few others.
我读过酗酒者的书，比如《干》一书和其他一些书。
Rich Roll talks about this, that he drank alcohol for the first time in college, and it was like this elixir that filled his body that made him feel right for the first time.
Rich Roll谈到这一点时说，他在大学时第一次喝酒，就像这种长生不老药充满了他的身体，让他第一次感觉良好。
That is not how I feel after a couple of drinks.
我喝了几杯酒后的感觉可不是这样。
I feel a little relaxed, but I can do without it.
我感觉有点放松，但我可以没有它。
But this drilling into something, I guess maybe that's my, I don't think it's a superpower, but I have some strength there, but I think it's also the thing that can cut on the other side.
但是这个钻进什么东西，我想也许那是我的，我不认为这是一种超能力，但我在那里有一些力量，但我认为这也是可以切割另一边的东西。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah, when you started off this conversation early, you talked about getting up in the morning and do you just get up and you have these, and I was about to go down the path of like, at nighttime, when I'm trying to go to sleep and I have some random thought about something-
是的，当你很早就开始这次谈话时，你谈到早上起床，你起床后就会有这些，我正要走这样的路，在晚上，当我想睡觉时，我有一些随机的想法-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
...
...
that can be hard.
这可能很难。
I have a visual thing that's going on.
我有一个视觉上的事情正在发生。
It seems like I'm on a rollercoaster and I'm going, and a new idea comes and I'm just on this awesome ride, and it's not going to stop.
好像我正在坐过山车，我正在前进，一个新的想法出现了，我就在这个很棒的旅程中，而且它不会停止。
And I don't know how to stop that.
我不知道如何阻止这种情况。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, no. I think it goes with people who are very driven and like to master different crafts.
哦，不。我认为它适合那些非常有动力并且喜欢掌握不同手艺的人。
I have a colleague, his name is Karl Deisseroth, he's a bioengineer, he has five children, and he's a psychiatrist.
我有一位同事，他的名字叫卡尔·戴瑟罗斯（Karl Deisseroth），他是一名生物工程师，他有五个孩子，他是一名精神病学家。
He's one of these people that does a ton, very likely will win the Nobel Prize someday.
他是做出巨大贡献的人之一，很可能有一天会获得诺贝尔奖。
He's an amazing scientist, amazing guy, and he does this practice that he does, which is not a meditation, which is he sits for an hour late at night after his kids have gone to sleep, and he forces himself to think in complete sentences with punctuation about some problem.
他是一位了不起的科学家，了不起的人，他所做的这种练习不是冥想，而是在孩子们入睡后，他在深夜坐了一个小时，他强迫自己用带有标点符号的完整句子思考一些问题。
I tried doing that for about five minutes and I fell off.
我试着这样做了大约五分钟，然后我就摔倒了。
But it's something that he's cultivated in himself-
但这是他自己培养出来的——
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
which helps him in his career, right?
这对他的职业生涯有帮助，对吗？
This is certainly not something I recommend.
这当然不是我推荐的。
If I did that at 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning, I think that would be bad for my sleep.
如果我在凌晨 1:00 或 2:00 这样做，我认为这会对我的睡眠不利。
Because falling asleep actually requires drifting into these kind of liminal states.
因为入睡实际上需要进入这种阈限状态。
It's one of the reasons why I'm a big proponent of things like non-sleep deep rest or these yoga nidra practices, which are basically body scans where you're trying to learn to detach from the sensory world.
这就是为什么我大力支持非睡眠深度休息或瑜伽休息练习等方法的原因之一，这些练习基本上是身体扫描，你试图学会脱离感官世界。
And they're very effective.
而且它们非常有效。
Certainly for me, they've been very effective at teaching me to turn off thinking, which is an interesting notion in its own right.
当然，对我来说，他们非常有效地教导我停止思考，这本身就是一个有趣的概念。
But I like the idea of detachment by stepping back and getting perspective.
但我喜欢通过退后一步并获得视角来保持超然的想法。
My father is much better at that.
我父亲在这方面做得更好。
He's a very calm guy in the world of confrontation.
在对抗的世界里他是一个非常冷静的人。
I always knew it when I was a kid because he would blink, which meant something was going to happen, like I was going to get it.
当我还是个孩子的时候我就一直知道这一点，因为他会眨眼，这意味着有事情要发生，就像我即将得到它一样。
But I've always noticed he can control his responses and his behavior.
但我一直注意到他可以控制自己的反应和行为。
Others of us in the family, aside from New Jersey, we're more like go to loggerheads.
我们家里的其他人，除了新泽西之外，我们更像是争吵不休。
So I don't know.
所以我不知道。
This raises a question, and I think it's one that I and several other people I talked to in anticipation of this podcast were asking.
这就提出了一个问题，我想这也是我和其他几个人在期待这个播客时所问的问题。
I think one reason why people are drawn to people who have been in the SEAL teams, and you in particular, are that I think everybody, not just males, but females too, I think everybody wants to know their calibration point on their level of toughness.
我认为人们被海豹突击队成员（尤其是你）所吸引的原因之一是，我认为每个人，不仅仅是男性，还有女性，我认为每个人都想知道自己坚韧程度的校准点。
I think people wonder.
我认为人们想知道。
I think when people talk about BUD/S and all that, I think a lot of people wonder, would I make it through, right?
我想当人们谈论 BUD/S 之类的事情时，我想很多人都在想，我能成功吗？
I've certainly wondered it.
我当然想知道。
I haven't spent hours on it.
我还没有花几个小时在上面。
I went my path.
我走我的路。
I'm happy for the path I went.
我为我所走的路感到高兴。
But I think people wonder, do I have this thing that supposedly BUD/S selects for, and if I don't, how tough am I or not tough am I?
但我认为人们想知道，我是否有 BUD/S 选择的东西，如果我没有，我有多坚强或不坚强？
I think that we all can look at other people physically, and I'm not somebody that does a lot of this.
我认为我们都可以观察其他人的身体状况，而我并不是经常这样做的人。
I know some people are really obsessed by this, like, oh, that person has an eight-pack with veins on there.
我知道有些人真的对此很着迷，比如，哦，那个人有八块腹肌，上面有静脉。
I don't understand that.
我不明白。
That's not me, but I understand some people do that even to the point of pathology.
那不是我，但我知道有些人这样做甚至达到了病态的程度。
But I think most people wonder, how resilient am I?
但我想大多数人都想知道，我的适应力有多强？
And they can look to experiences that they've survived and say I made it through, or I'm resilient or not.
他们可以回顾自己幸存下来的经历，并说我挺过来了，或者我是否有弹性。
But is there a way that we can certainly train it by doing hard things, cold showers, this kind of thing, or small examples of those?
但有没有一种方法可以让我们通过做艰苦的事情、洗冷水澡之类的事情或类似的小例子来训练它呢？
But do you think it's even an important question to ask?
但你认为这是一个重要的问题吗？
And if it is, how does one go about thinking, how resilient am I?
如果是的话，人们如何思考我的适应力有多强？
Should we put ourself into situations of discomfort just to test that?
我们是否应该将自己置于不舒服的境地只是为了测试这一点？
Because I will say, I think a lot of people look to SEAL teams and team guys in particular as kind of a calibration point of like, okay They know how to do hard things.
因为我想说，我认为很多人都将海豹突击队和队员视为一种校准点，好吧，他们知道如何做困难的事情。
They were selected for the ability to carry logs and get into cold water over and over, and roll in the sand, and go without sleep for a week or so.
他们之所以被选中，是因为他们能够搬运原木，一遍又一遍地进入冷水，在沙子里打滚，并且能够连续一周左右不睡觉。
But that's probably not what they were doing when they were on deployments.
但这可能不是他们在部署时所做的事情。
It's clearly a pressure test for something else.
这显然是对其他事情的压力测试。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah.
是的。
It's a strange thing, the basic underwater demolition SEAL training.
这是一件奇怪的事情，海豹突击队的基本水下爆破训练。
And quite frankly, going and getting wet and cold and being miserable is actually nothing compared to being on deployment.
坦白说，与在部署中相比，外出、受潮、受冷、痛苦实际上算不了什么。
And a good example that I use to compare this to is when I was on deployment in 2006 in Ramadi, as you were driving off-base to go into the city and conduct operations, as you drove out of the compound, on your right was this area that was called the vehicle graveyard.
我用来比较的一个很好的例子是，2006年我在拉马迪部署时，当你开车离开基地进入城市并进行行动时，当你驶出大院时，你的右边是这个被称为车辆墓地的区域。
And the vehicle graveyard was exactly what it sounds like.
车辆墓地正是它听起来的样子。
It was probably 75 or 100 vehicles that were blown up, destroyed, burned, in various twisted conditions that had been dragged back through the city and put into this vehicle graveyard.
大概有七十五辆、一百辆被炸毁、烧毁、各种扭曲的车辆，从城市里拖了回来，放进了这个车辆坟场。
And as you drove by that vehicle graveyard, you know without question that every one of those twisted vehicles represented one, two, three, four, five American casualties, wounded, horribly wounded, killed.
当你开车经过那个车辆墓地时，你毫无疑问地知道，每一辆扭曲的车辆都代表着一、二、三、四、五名美国人的伤亡，受伤的，重伤的，死亡的。
And there you are in a vehicle about to roll out into that city, where what you're looking at can easily be you in the next three minutes, and you're going to do that today, you're going to do that tomorrow, you're going to do that the next day, and the day after that, and the day after that.
你坐在一辆车里，即将驶入那个城市，在那里，你所看到的很容易在接下来的三分钟内就是你，你今天会这样做，明天你会这样做，第二天你会这样做，后天，再后天。
And by the way, this isn't just SEALs that are doing that.
顺便说一句，这样做的不仅仅是海豹突击队。
This is Marines.
这是海军陆战队。
This is the Army guys that are over there.
这是那边的陆军人员。
This is what everyone is doing.
这就是每个人都在做的事情。
And they do it.
他们做到了。
I talk about Mark Lee, who's one of my guys, first SEAL killed in Iraq, and he was the lead turret gunner in the lead Humvee.
我谈到马克·李，他是我的一个人，是第一个在伊拉克阵亡的海豹突击队员，他是主力悍马车上的主炮塔炮手。
And in Vietnam, if you were the point man in Vietnam, if you're on an infantry patrol and you are the point man in Vietnam, you are at risk.
在越南，如果你是越南的指挥员，如果你在步兵巡逻队并且是越南的指挥员，那么你就处于危险之中。
Booby traps, ambush.
陷阱、伏击。
So they rotated you out.
所以他们把你轮换了。
You didn't have to stay up there all the time.
你不必一直呆在那里。
You do an hour as point man, they get someone else up there.
你作为指挥员工作一个小时，他们就会派其他人上去。
And that guy, the lead turret gunner in a Humvee column of four, five, or six vehicles, if you hit an IED, that's the vehicle that's going to hit it.
那个家伙，在由四辆、五辆或六辆汽车组成的悍马纵队中的首席炮塔炮手，如果你击中简易爆炸装置，那就是要击中它的车辆。
If you go into an ambush, that's the guy that's going to get hit.
如果你遭遇伏击，那个人就会被击中。
It's the guy that's standing up in a .50 caliber turret.
就是那个站在 0.50 口径炮塔里的家伙。
That's the guy that's going to die.
这就是那个即将死去的家伙。
And Mark, he was a new guy, so he's in that lead turret, .50 cal, and he never asked to get rotated out.
马克，他是个新人，所以他在那个 0.50 口径的主炮塔里，他从来没有要求轮换出去。
And I remember, he was extremely charismatic, funny, gregarious comedian.
我记得，他是一位极具魅力、风趣、合群的喜剧演员。
And we got all kinds of stories about Mark, but one of them, we were in Vegas and we're all gambling, and I come down from my hotel room and I see Mark, he's playing blackjack, and he sees me, he goes, "Hey, sir, when are the new Cadillacs coming out?" He's just lighting up everybody, just having a fantastic time.
我们有各种各样关于马克的故事，但其中之一是，我们在维加斯，我们都在赌博，我从酒店房间下来，我看到马克，他正在玩二十一点，他看到我，他说，“嘿，先生，新凯迪拉克什么时候上市？”他只是照亮了每个人，度过了一段美好的时光。
But I remember one night, he's getting ready to roll out, and if I wasn't going out with the platoons, I would go out, see the guys off, give them a hand salute as they're leaving, and I'm like, "How you doing, Mark?
但我记得有一天晚上，他正准备出发，如果我不和排一起出去，我就会出去送行，在他们离开时向他们敬礼，我会说：“马克，你好吗？
You good to go?" And he's like, "Feeling lucky, sir." That was his attitude.
你可以走了吗？”他说：“感觉很幸运，先生。”这就是他的态度。
And he's a guy that's going to drive by that vehicle graveyard, drive right out on that city, and he's going to do it the next day, and the day after that, and the day after that.
他是一个会开车经过那个车辆墓地，直接驶向那个城市的人，他会在第二天、后天、再后天这样做。
And like I said, that's what the Army guys are doing.
就像我说的，这就是陆军人员正在做的事情。
That's what the Marine Corps guys are doing.
这就是海军陆战队人员正在做的事情。
They're doing it.
他们正在做。
And so as much as the mythology around basic SEAL training goes, to me, that experience in combat and what guys do is infinitely harder and infinitely more important.
因此，尽管围绕海豹突击队基本训练的神话如此多，但对我来说，战斗经验和士兵所做的事情要困难得多，也要重要得多。
Now, all that being said, basic SEAL training is a very strange laboratory for human beings.
话虽如此，海豹突击队的基本训练对人类来说是一个非常奇怪的实验室。
It is a very strange laboratory for human beings, and it's kind of crazy the way it works.
对于人类来说，这是一个非常奇怪的实验室，它的工作方式有点疯狂。
It's obviously extremely difficult.
显然这是极其困难的。
You could put odds on somebody making it through.
你可以对某人通过的可能性进行评估。
Like, "Hey, that guy seems like he's going to be good to go." But I wouldn't put a bunch of money on it, right?
就像，“嘿，那个家伙看起来他会很高兴。”但我不会花很多钱，对吧？
And I wouldn't take 100%.
我不会接受 100%。
I would never take 100% bet on anybody, because there's no one that's 100% going to make it through that training.
我永远不会把 100% 的赌注押在任何人身上，因为没有人能 100% 地通过培训。
And there's just random-- Some people say, "Well, it's because of your why." There's people that make it through SEAL training because their ex-girlfriend said they couldn't make it.
这只是随机的——有些人说，“嗯，这是因为你的原因。”有些人之所以能够通过海豹突击队的训练，是因为他们的前女友说他们无法通过。
There's some other guy that makes it through because they promised God that they would make it.
还有一些人成功了，因为他们向上帝保证他们会成功。
There's some other guy that made it through because their dad said they could have it.
还有一些人成功了，因为他们的父亲说他们可以拥有它。
There's every one of these examples you can come up with.
您可以想出所有这些示例。
And it's good enough for some random dude to make it through.
对于一些随机的家伙来说，这已经足够好了。
And it doesn't matter what your pedigree is, doesn't matter where you're from.
不管你的血统是什么，也不管你来自哪里。
There's guys from Iowa, there's guys from Florida, there's guys from wherever that make it.
有来自爱荷华州的人，有来自佛罗里达州的人，还有来自任何地方的人。
And there's guys from Iowa, and there's guys from Florida, and there's guys from wherever that don't make it.
还有来自爱荷华州的人，还有来自佛罗里达州的人，还有来自其他地方的人。
Guys from farms, guys from silver spoon in their mouth, and you just can't predict it.
来自农场的家伙，嘴里含着金汤匙的家伙，你就是无法预测。
And it has to have something to do with the fact that how bad you actually want to do it.
这必须与你实际上有多想这样做有关。
It's a strange thing, and I wouldn't try and-- If I was in the world, if I didn't do that training, I wouldn't be trying to figure out if I could make it or not, because you don't know.
这是一件奇怪的事情，我不会尝试——如果我在这个世界上，如果我不进行那种训练，我就不会试图弄清楚我是否能成功，因为你不知道。
You don't know.
你不知道。
It's a very strange thing, and it's so mythical almost right now, right?
这是一件非常奇怪的事情，而且现在几乎都是神话般的，对吧？
It's mythical how hard it is.
这是多么困难的神话。
And just not too many people make it through, man.
只是没有太多人能成功，伙计。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
15%.
15%。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, from all the folks that I've talked to who were there, gone through, been instructors there, some we both know, seem that that 15% number is unlikely to change as long as they keep the process the same.
是的，从我采访过的所有曾在那里、经历过、曾在那里担任过讲师的人（其中一些我们都认识）看来，只要他们保持流程不变，15% 的数字就不太可能改变。
It just seems like about 15% of people seem to have something in them that can perhaps grow during that training, but that it is being identified and selected for rather than somehow being built up across at least that phase, the early phases of training.
看起来大约 15% 的人身上似乎有一些东西可以在培训期间成长，但这些东西是被识别和选择的，而不是以某种方式至少在那个阶段，即培训的早期阶段中建立起来的。
And then at some point, they build on that capacity.
然后在某个时候，他们会建立在这种能力的基础上。
And this gets to this really somewhat controversial issue, frankly, like are people wired differently?
这涉及到一个确实有些争议的问题，坦率地说，就像人们的线路不同吗？
And listen, I started off in neural development, and I'll tell you that there are some universal properties of neural development in all surviving humans, like that you're going to breathe without having to think about it.
听着，我从神经发育开始，我会告诉你，所有幸存的人类的神经发育都有一些普遍的特性，比如你不需要思考就能呼吸。
Your heart's going to beat without having to think about it.
无需思考，你的心脏就会跳动。
But beyond that, there's a lot of variation in natural levels of dopamine and serotonin.
但除此之外，多巴胺和血清素的自然水平存在很大差异。
Nature plays a powerful role, and nurture.
自然发挥着强大的作用，并且滋养。
And what's interesting, though, is we can't always predict from parents what nature's going to do.
但有趣的是，我们不能总是从父母那里预测大自然会做什么。
Recently, we had someone on the podcast, I'm excited for you to listen to it if perhaps you will, if I send it to you, is a guy who talks about inheritable, acquired traits.
最近，我们的播客上有一个人，我很高兴你能听一下，如果你愿意的话，如果我把它发送给你，他是一个谈论可遗传的、后天的特质的人。
You don't expect that because you work out that your grandkids will be more muscular and have better endurance.
你不会因为你的锻炼而期望你的孙子们会变得更加肌肉发达并且有更好的耐力。
But there's actually some evidence that that may be the case.
但实际上有一些证据表明情况可能如此。
And you go, "Well, how could that be?" Well, you got two kinds of cells in your body.
然后你会说：“那怎么可能呢？”嗯，你体内有两种细胞。
It turns out you have what are called somatic cells, which are all of them.
原来你有所谓的体细胞，就是它们的全部。
Then you have the germ cells, which are your sperm and your wife's eggs.
然后是生殖细胞，即你的精子和你妻子的卵子。
Well, why wouldn't the DNA of the sperm cells and the egg cells be modifiable by experience if all the other cells are?
那么，如果所有其他细胞都可以的话，为什么精子细胞和卵细胞的 DNA 不能通过经验进行修改呢？
And it turns out there's some evidence that maybe it's not the DNA, but that the RNA are.
事实证明，有一些证据表明，也许不是 DNA，而是 RNA。
Think about that.
想想看。
That means that whether, and we've known this, that people that have been in a famine, several generations later, there are implications for blood sugar regulation in their great-grandkids.
这意味着，我们已经知道，几代人之后经历过饥荒的人们是否会对他们的曾孙的血糖调节产生影响。
So the idea that experience and acquired traits can change us actually has some validity.
因此，经验和后天特质可以改变我们的想法实际上有一定的道理。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And this gets into really complicated things because people go, "Oh, this is like the giraffe that had to crane its neck and then gave birth to longer neck giraffes." And it's like, well, not exactly, but also not entirely untrue either.
这会导致非常复杂的事情，因为人们会说，“哦，这就像长颈鹿必须伸长脖子，然后生出更长脖子的长颈鹿。”这就像，嗯，不完全是，但也不完全不真实。
So-
所以——
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I love the idea that there are inherited traits and that nature and nurture play a role, but that hard work may actually transmit across generations.
我喜欢这样的想法，即遗传特征以及先天和后天都发挥着作用，但努力工作实际上可能会代代相传。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah.
是的。
In SEAL training, you have kids that come through that they call legacies, which means that they have a dad, brother, whatever, and they do have a better chance of making it, but it's not a guaranteed chance at all.
在海豹突击队的训练中，你的孩子们会经历他们所谓的遗产，这意味着他们有父亲、兄弟等等，他们确实有更好的机会成功，但这根本不是保证的机会。
And my personal opinion is I think a legacy kid would have a better chance of making it just due to the Thanksgiving dinner that you're going to have to go through for the rest of your life with your family.
我个人的观点是，我认为一个传统的孩子会有更好的机会成功，因为你将不得不与家人一起度过余生的感恩节晚餐。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you don't.
如果你不这样做。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah, if you're even invited, which you might be on your own.
是的，如果你被邀请的话，你可能会独自一人。
But yeah, so maybe there's something to that as well.
但是，是的，所以也许也有一些原因。
But I think that's just more the pressure that someone must feel like, "Hey, there's no way I'm going to be allowed back in my home if I don't make it through this training, so I'm going to have to just go ahead and suck it up." But not everyone makes it, and it's a bummer when that does occur.
但我认为这更像是有人感受到的压力，“嘿，如果我不能通过这次训练，我就不会被允许回到家里，所以我只能继续忍下去。”但并不是每个人都能做到，当这种情况发生时，那就太糟糕了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, for people who are not thinking about going through SEAL training or who missed the opportunity or who are not interested in that for whatever reason, do you think there's value to doing things each day that suck a little bit?
好吧，对于那些没有考虑参加海豹突击队训练的人，或者错过了机会的人，或者出于某种原因对此不感兴趣的人，你认为每天做一些有点糟糕的事情有价值吗？
Or from time to time, doing something that puts one into a state of deliberate discomfort?
或者时不时地做一些让一个人故意感到不舒服的事情？
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah, 100%.
是的，100%。
Yeah.
是的。
100%.
100%。
Even in order to improve yourself, you got to impose some discipline on yourself, right?
即使为了提高自己，你也必须对自己施加一些纪律，对吧？
If you want to get stronger, you've got to do things that require strength.
如果你想变得更强，你就必须做一些需要力量的事情。
If you want to be tougher, you got to do things that require you to be tougher.
如果你想变得更强硬，你就必须做那些需要你更强硬的事情。
I think that's pretty straightforward.
我认为这非常简单。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Does that mean doing things that are not pleasurable?
这是否意味着做一些不愉快的事情？
So for instance, you and I have done some long podcasts, and a few weeks ago, I did a series.
举例来说，你和我做了一些长播客，几周前我做了一个系列。
We were doing a series with Andy Galpin, all about exercise and exercise science, and we did six podcasts in that week.
我们正在与安迪·加尔平（Andy Galpin）一起制作一系列关于运动和运动科学的系列，那周我们制作了六个播客。
The most I've ever done, which made doing four or five the next week not so bad.
这是我做过的最多的一次，这使得下周做四五次也不算太糟糕。
But I loved every second of it, and I love every second of podcasting, and so it didn't suck, but it built up a greater capacity.
但我喜欢它的每一秒，我喜欢播客的每一秒，所以它并不糟糕，但它建立了更大的容量。
I guess I'm asking specifically about things that really feel like a splinter.
我想我是在专门询问那些感觉像是碎片的事情。
Is there any value to that?
这有什么价值吗？
Because I have to say, there are some people I know, some of them are team guys.
因为我不得不说，我认识一些人，其中一些是团队成员。
I guess you don't say former team guys.
我猜你说的不是前队员。
They're out of the teams now, but they're team guys forever, who seem to not be rattled by little things.
他们现在离开了球队，但他们永远是球队的一员，他们似乎不会因为小事而心烦意乱。
Those guys in particular, they don't seem to be rattled by little things.
尤其是那些家伙，他们似乎不会因为小事而惊慌。
And then I know people that they get the wrong size coffee at a coffee shop and they dissolve into a puddle of tears, right?
然后我知道人们在咖啡馆喝到了错误尺寸的咖啡，然后就化成了一滩眼泪，对吗？
So there does seem to be something to this whole mental resilience thing and flexibility thing.
所以，心理韧性和灵活性似乎确实有一定的作用。
And I try and do something that's uncomfortable to me about once a week, something I really don't like It doesn't matter what that is, but I try and do something that's kind of unpleasant.
我每周都会尝试做一些让我不舒服的事情，一些我真的不喜欢的事情，那是什么并不重要，但我尝试做一些有点不愉快的事情。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or do something in a way that's unpleasant.
或者以不愉快的方式做某事。
I guess the example would be getting into the cold water the first thing in the morning and making that decision from under the blankets is a rough one for me.
我想这个例子就是早上第一件事就是跳进冷水里，在毯子下做出这个决定对我来说是一个艰难的决定。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But then it gets easier, and then you wonder, is it still serving the purpose that it's building me up?
但后来它变得更容易了，然后你想知道，它仍然能达到它让我成长的目的吗？
So should people seek truly bad experiences, provided that they're done in a safe way?
那么，如果以安全的方式进行的话，人们是否应该寻求真正糟糕的经历呢？
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah.
是的。
I think that you're going to, just like you would develop your legs by doing squats, and you would develop your back by doing pull-ups, I think you would develop your resiliency by doing repetitions of things that require you to be tougher.
我认为你会，就像你会通过深蹲来锻炼你的腿，你会通过做引体向上来锻炼你的背部一样，我认为你会通过重复做那些需要你更强硬的事情来锻炼你的弹性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That actually suck.
这实际上很糟糕。
Okay, good.
好的，很好。
And the reason I ask this is because I think a lot of people think, well, I work out every day, but then you probe them a little bit and they're like, "But I love exercise."
我之所以问这个问题，是因为我认为很多人都会想，好吧，我每天都锻炼，但当你稍微探究一下他们时，他们会说，“但我喜欢锻炼。”
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then, well, that doesn't quite qualify as something that makes you tougher, right?
然后，好吧，这并不能算是让你变得更强硬的事情，对吧？
Or they think, oh, the last reps of a set are really tough.
或者他们认为，哦，一组的最后一次真的很难。
But if you love hitting failure on a set, because that's kind of what I seek in the gym, I love that aspect of the training, that's actually where I know I'm getting better.
但如果你喜欢在一组上失败，因为这就是我在健身房所寻求的，我喜欢训练的这方面，这实际上是我知道自己正在变得更好的地方。
It no longer serves as resilience training, it more just serves as training.
它不再充当复原力训练，而更多地充当训练。
In any case, I think that the point is clear, and I appreciate your answer.
无论如何，我认为这一点很清楚，我很欣赏你的回答。
I have to ask about something.
我得问一件事。
Again, this is going to seem like a total divergence, but it's not, which is animals.
再说一次，这看起来像是一个完全的分歧，但事实并非如此，这是动物。
Because first of all, they're a love of mine in terms of understanding the animal kingdom and placing humans into the animal kingdom.
因为首先，在了解动物王国并将人类置于动物王国方面，它们是我的最爱。
Second of all, I know you're a hunter.
其次，我知道你是一名猎人。
And also, I know you own dogs.
而且，我知道你养狗。
And the question I have is, do you ever look at people, or did you ever work in teams of guys when you were on active duty, kind of see that the differences, you mentioned before, this person's really good at problem-solving, this person's a little bit more creative.
我的问题是，你是否观察过人们，或者你在现役时是否曾在团队中工作，看到过你之前提到的差异，这个人真的很擅长解决问题，这个人更有创造力一点。
Do you ever wonder whether or not people kind of embody different kind of animal archetypes?
您是否想知道人们是否体现了不同类型的动物原型？
Because I do.
因为我愿意。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Well, that thing where people say that dogs or owners look like their dogs, dogs look like their owners-
好吧，人们说狗或主人长得像他们的狗，狗长得像他们的主人——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
...
...
I've seen all kinds of examples.
我见过各种各样的例子。
You can go on the internet and find a bunch of examples of dogs that look like their owners and owners that look like their dogs.
你可以在互联网上找到一堆看起来像他们的主人的狗和看起来像他们的狗的主人的例子。
So I think that's true, and I think my dog's awesome, and-
所以我认为这是真的，而且我认为我的狗很棒，而且-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Tell me about your dog.
告诉我关于你的狗的事。
What kind of dog is it?
它是什么品种的狗？
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
My dog is a German Shepherd.
我的狗是德国牧羊犬。
His name is Odin, and he's an awesome dog.
他的名字叫奥丁，他是一只很棒的狗。
And he's got a personality, but he's got an interesting personality.
他有个性，但他有一个有趣的个性。
So he doesn't like to cuddle, right?
所以他不喜欢拥抱，对吗？
My kids will be like, "Oh, he doesn't like to cuddle." No, even when we go to bed at night, he goes to four feet away from the foot of my bed.
我的孩子们会说，“哦，他不喜欢拥抱。”不，即使我们晚上睡觉时，他也会走到离我床脚四英尺远的地方。
Even if I was like, "Hey, jump up." I've told him, "Jump up in here.
即使我说，“嘿，跳起来。”我告诉他：“跳到这里来。
We want to pet you." He'll jump up in there, and he just kind of goes in that low crouch position and then sort of waits until I say, "Free dog," and then he goes back down and he goes four feet away from the foot of the bed and sits there.
我们想宠爱你。”他会跳到那里，然后以那种低蹲的姿势，然后等到我说“自由的狗”，然后他又回到床脚四英尺远的地方，坐在那里。
Because that's his personality, is to protect and set security and do his job, and that's what he's like.
因为这就是他的个性，就是保护和设置安全并做好他的工作，这就是他的性格。
And so you've got other dogs that they're in a totally different mindset.
所以你还有其他狗，它们的心态完全不同。
So yeah, dogs have definite personalities.
所以是的，狗有明确的个性。
And look, it's not all genetic.
瞧，这并不全是遗传的。
So two of my friends got dogs that were brothers.
所以我的两个朋友养了狗，它们是兄弟。
What are they called?
他们叫什么？
Dogo Argentinos.
阿根廷杜高。
Do you know what that is?
你知道那是什么吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, Dogos.
哦，杜格斯。
Yeah, those are hard to get in the US.
是的，这些在美国很难买到。
They might not even be legal in the United States.
它们在美国甚至可能不合法。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So don't tell me who these people are.
所以不要告诉我这些人是谁。
Not that I care, but I'd like to know more than-
我并不关心，但我想知道的不仅仅是——
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
I'm not going to tell you who they are.
我不会告诉你他们是谁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yep.
是的。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
But these two guys, and those two guys had different personalities.
但这两个家伙，而且那两个家伙的性格不同。
One guy is a very happy-go-lucky, likes to smoke pot, likes to hang out, very just a chill, kind of playful guy.
有一个家伙是一个非常无忧无虑的人，喜欢抽大麻，喜欢出去玩，非常冷漠，有点顽皮。
The other guy's not.
另一个人不是。
He's the opposite in every category.
他在每个类别中都是相反的。
And they both got these dogs, and you fast-forward a year, the dog that was owned by the playful guy, his dog was just a big puppy licking at, just wagging the tail.
他们都养了这些狗，快进一年，那只狗是那个顽皮的家伙拥有的，他的狗只是一只舔着的大小狗，只是摇尾巴。
The other dog, you had to keep it in a cage, or it would murder everything in sight.
另一只狗，你必须把它关在笼子里，否则它会杀死视野中的一切。
And these dogs were brothers from the same litter, and they were completely opposite.
而且这些狗是同窝的兄弟，而且性格完全相反。
And so I think it has a lot more to do with nurture than it does to do with nature.
所以我认为这与后天的关系更大，而不是与先天的关系。
But that being said, when you look at Mal's, I mean, Mal's have a personality that is very distinct compared to a German Shepherd.
但话虽这么说，当你看到马尔的时候，我的意思是，马尔的个性与德国牧羊犬相比非常独特。
Now look, there's outlying Mal's, there's outlying German Shepherds, there's outlying you name whatever kind of Golden Retriever or whatever dog is known for being more playful.
现在看，有边远的马尔斯，有边远的德国牧羊犬，还有边远的你能想到的任何种类的金毛猎犬或任何已知更顽皮的狗。
You get around a Mal, Mal's are Mal's, and they're that way.
你绕过了马尔，马尔就是马尔，他们就是这样。
Have you been around Mal's before?
你以前去过 Mal's 吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-mm.
嗯嗯。
Oh-
哦-
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
The Belgian Mal-
比利时马尔-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
...
...
Malinois.
马里诺犬。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A few of them.
其中几个。
My neighbor has one, and that thing is not terribly friendly.
我的邻居有一个，那东西不太友好。
But it's a security dog-
但它是一只保安犬——
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
so I don't expect it to be.
所以我不认为会是这样。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I know that they use them for work in the teams.
我知道他们在团队中使用它们。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I've heard that you have to keep a close eye on your relationship with them, because if you get lax about it, they'll bite you.
我听说你必须密切关注你和他们的关系，因为如果你松懈，他们就会咬你。
Is that true?
这是真的吗？
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
The first time I saw one, we were doing a drill with using dogs for the first time, and one of the team guy dog handlers came out.
我第一次看到它时，我们正在第一次使用狗进行演习，其中一位团队成员训狗师走了出来。
And so we hit this target building, and they kind of pre-briefed us like, "Hey, you get this target building, and this guy's going to be a runner, a squirter." And so we pull up in the Humvees, assault team jumps out, I'm kind of staying external.
所以我们到达了这个目标建筑，他们预先向我们通报了情况，比如，“嘿，你得到了这个目标建筑，这个人将成为一个跑步者，一个喷射者。”所以我们开着悍马车停下来，突击队跳出来，我有点站在外面。
I kind of want to see what's going to happen.
我有点想看看会发生什么。
So the squirter goes running off, and the dog handler like l- ...
于是喷水者就跑掉了，而训狗师就像-...
whatever tracks his dog on this guy and then releases, it gives him whatever commands, or whatever the commands are.
无论他的狗跟踪这个家伙然后释放，它都会给他任何命令，或者无论命令是什么。
That thing is totally primed, unlike anything you've ever seen in your life.
那东西完全准备好了，与你一生中见过的任何东西都不一样。
It is just primed.
它刚刚准备好。
It's tracking that guy.
它正在追踪那个人。
He hits that release on that leash, and that thing takes off at 1,000 miles an hour.
他松开皮带，那东西就以每小时 1,000 英里的速度起飞。
It jumps, I'm not kidding, 15 feet, maybe 10 feet in the air, away and just chomps onto this dude.
我没开玩笑，它跳到空中 15 英尺，也许 10 英尺，然后就咬住了这个家伙。
The dude goes down.
那家伙倒下了。
It was freaking awesome.
太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I've seen some videos of those Malinois.
我看过一些马里诺犬的视频。
Forgive me, because before I didn't know what you were referring to, but Belgian Malinois, those dogs running up trees-
请原谅我，因为之前我不知道你指的是什么，但是比利时玛利诺犬，那些跑上树的狗——
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
jumping over-
跳过——
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
little rivers.
小河流。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
It's crazy.
太疯狂了。
Incredibly powerful animals.
令人难以置信的强大动物。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, the idea that they mimic their owners has me a little concerned because my last dog, I had to put him down, was my bulldog, Costello.
嗯，他们模仿主人的想法让我有点担心，因为我的最后一只狗，我不得不把他放下，是我的斗牛犬，科斯特洛。
He's a bulldog mastiff.
他是一只斗牛犬獒。
I got him because I went to pick out a puppy, basically, and there were eight of these bulldogs, and all of them were running around, and then there's one in the background just eating out of all of their bowls.
我之所以抓到他，是因为我去挑选一只小狗，基本上，那里有八只斗牛犬，它们都在跑来跑去，然后有一只在后台，正在吃它们所有的碗里的东西。
And I was like, "I want that one." Big bulldog, biggest one in the litter.
我当时想，“我想要那个。”大斗牛犬，一窝中最大的一只。
Laziest creature.
最懒的生物。
Not just dog, but laziest creature that ever existed.
不仅仅是狗，还是有史以来最懒的生物。
But if you need to activate, he would.
但如果你需要激活，他会的。
He was just very efficient with his energy.
他的精力非常有效率。
And I don't think I have a bulldog personality, and that's why I got him-
我不认为我有斗牛犬的性格，这就是我得到他的原因-
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
to kind of balance me out.
来平衡我。
Never retrieved, never did anything.
从来没有找回过，也没有做过任何事。
Stole and destroyed every toy at every dog park in San Diego.
偷走了并毁坏了圣地亚哥每个狗公园的所有玩具。
He was kind of famous there.
他在那里有点名气。
I had to bring $5 bills to pay people for all the balls and things he would destroy.
我必须带 5 美元的钞票来付钱给他毁掉的所有球和东西。
So anyway, my apologies to all the dog owners.
不管怎样，我向所有狗主人道歉。
Not really.
并不真地。
I miss him.
我很想念他。
Did you train your dog, or did someone else in the house?
是你训练你的狗，还是家里的其他人训练的？
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah, I did.
是的，我做到了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And was he trained to be a security dog or a kind of family dog, or it was kind of a mixture?
他是被训练成保安犬还是家庭犬，还是两者的混合体？
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yep.
是的。
The true working dogs, unless you have the time and effort to put into them or you buy them that way, you don't want one of those dogs that I was just describing in your house.
真正的工作犬，除非你有时间和精力投入它们或者你以这种方式购买它们，否则你不会想要我刚才描述的那些狗出现在你的家里。
They're not for a house.
他们不是为了房子。
Unless there's that level.
除非有那个水平。
My dog's not that level.
我家狗没那么水平
He's awesome.
他太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Did you apply some of the same principles that you use in leadership of humans with your dog?
您是否在领导人类时运用了一些与您的狗相同的原则？
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yep.
是的。
There are a lot of similar principles, but there's also some differences.
相似的原理有很多，但也有一些区别。
They're pack animals, right?
它们是群居动物，对吗？
And they respond to the pack leader.
他们会对狼群首领作出回应。
It is funny, my dog obeys me as if it's the command of God.
有趣的是，我的狗服从我，就好像这是上帝的命令一样。
And my wife, he's kind of like, "Maybe I'll do what you say." So they pick up on that kind of stuff.
而我的妻子，他有点像，“也许我会按你说的做。”所以他们会选择这类东西。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Dogs are very intuitive.
狗的直觉非常敏锐。
I love this idea that I was told early on that they can feel your emotions.
我很喜欢这个想法，我很早就被告知他们可以感受到你的情绪。
I think they actually can sense how we feel, not just by the intonation of our voice, but I hope someday someone will figure out, in a non-invasive way, because I don't like the idea of people doing experiments on dogs in an invasive way, but kind of like what they're picking up on.
我认为它们实际上可以感知我们的感受，不仅仅是通过我们声音的语调，但我希望有一天有人会以非侵入性的方式弄清楚，因为我不喜欢人们以侵入性的方式对狗进行实验，但有点像他们正在接受的东西。
Like for instance, we know that sharks are paying attention to the amount of activity in the lateral line of fish.
例如，我们知道鲨鱼正在关注鱼侧线的活动量。
Fish have these-
鱼有这些——
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
these stretches of neurons they call the lateral line that allows them to school and know the distance to different things and be able to steer around coral.
这些神经元被它们称为侧线，使它们能够学习并知道与不同物体的距离，并能够绕过珊瑚。
They feel proximity.
他们感到亲近。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It'd be kind of like if you're turning a coin, you go and they can even recognize specific lateral line signatures.
这有点像如果你转动一枚硬币，你去，他们甚至可以识别特定的侧线签名。
So it'd be like you and Mark Lee walking together through the dark, but maybe people sift around, but you're like, "You don't have to look at him.
所以这就像是你和马克·李一起走过黑暗，但也许人们会四处打量，但你会说，“你不必看他。
That's Mark."
那是马克。”
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You kind of learn him intuitively, like a fish can do that.
你可以凭直觉了解他，就像鱼可以做到这一点一样。
Sharks can sense whether or not the lateral line is, I wouldn't say vibrating, but firing at a particular frequency to know, "Oh, that fish is a little bit slower than the rest." Hunting animals, they develop these incredible senses and I think humans have some of these kind of senses in a more rudimentary way.
鲨鱼可以感知侧线是否（我不会说是振动），而是以特定频率发射来知道，“哦，那条鱼比其他鱼慢一点。”在狩猎动物时，它们发展出这些令人难以置信的感官，我认为人类以更基本的方式拥有其中一些感官。
We're just not forced to use them unless, of course, you become a hunter of animals or a hunter of humans, and you tap into these neural circuits that are very primitive and hardwired in everybody, but of course, they're honed in warriors.
我们只是不会被迫使用它们，当然，除非你成为动物猎人或人类猎人，并且你利用了每个人都非常原始和固有的神经回路，但当然，它们在战士中得到了磨练。
Anyway, I could spiral off into animal biology in ways that truly would take us 26 hours.
无论如何，我可以以真正需要 26 小时的方式进入动物生物学领域。
I don't want to do that.
我不想那样做。
I'm almost hesitant to ask this question, but I'm going to do it anyway.
我几乎在犹豫要不要问这个问题，但无论如何我还是要问。
Many times online, you are asked whether or not you will run for office, and I want to say that I think it's a true compliment.
很多次在网上，你被问到你是否会竞选公职，我想说，我认为这是一个真正的恭维。
I don't think people are asking just to kind of entertain themselves.
我不认为人们提出这个要求只是为了自娱自乐。
I think that this country certainly, and a lot of the world, is desperate for certain kinds of leaders and people that have experience in high-risk, high-consequence, chaotic situations and have shown prowess at leadership in multiple domains, and you are certainly one of those individuals.
我认为，这个国家以及世界上许多国家当然都迫切需要某些类型的领导人和人员，这些领导人和人员具有高风险、高后果、混乱局势的经验，并在多个领域表现出领导能力，而您肯定是其中之一。
And so they ask for that reason, among others.
因此他们会询问这个原因以及其他原因。
And I've heard you give your answer, and you can repeat it again here, but as a more broad theme that I think people are interested in, do you think it's an important criteria, or it would be great to see people in positions of leadership who've had wartime experience?
我听到你给出了答案，你可以在这里重复一遍，但作为我认为人们感兴趣的更广泛的主题，你认为这是一个重要的标准，还是很高兴看到有战时经验的人担任领导职务？
And do you think that some of the shifts that we've seen in terms of patterns of leadership over the last, let's just make it real broad so that this isn't related to any particular person or stretch of history, but over the last, let's just say 25 years, reflect the fact that we haven't seen a lot of that, at least at the top tiers of leadership?
你是否认为过去我们在领导模式方面看到的一些转变，让我们把它变得更广泛，这样就与任何特定的人或历史的延伸无关，但在过去，我们就说25年，反映出我们没有看到很多这样的事实，至少在高层领导层？
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah, I think it'd be excellent if the president had military experience, for sure.
是的，我认为如果总统有军事经验，那就太好了，当然。
I think that then they understand the way the military works better.
我认为这样他们就能更好地理解军队的运作方式。
They understand that it's civilians that control the military, because a lot of times people that are civilians don't understand that the civilians control the military.
他们明白是平民控制了军队，因为很多时候平民不明白平民控制着军队。
And I think that you do get to appreciate What war actually is and what the costs are.
我认为你确实会明白战争到底是什么以及其代价是什么。
I think that I've seen, in the same vein of people asking me to run for political office, I've heard, seen comments saying, "Oh, that's what we need, a warmonger in office." And I've responded to a few of those.
我想我也看到过，同样有人要求我竞选政治职位，我听到过，看到过评论说，“哦，这就是我们需要的，一个办公室里的战争贩子。”我已经回复了其中一些。
I think if there's any group of people that don't want war, it's people that have seen it, people that understand what the sacrifices are.
我认为如果有一群人不想要战争，那一定是那些亲眼目睹战争、了解战争牺牲的人们。
And I think that being in the military, people understand that better.
我认为，在军队里，人们会更好地理解这一点。
So yeah, I think it'd be a great qualification.
所以是的，我认为这将是一个很好的资格。
I don't think it's mandatory.
我认为这不是强制性的。
Clearly it's not.
显然不是。
We've had a bunch of presidents that haven't ever served anything.
我们有很多位总统从来没有做过任何事。
Really, we've had a bunch of presidents that haven't ever served anything but themselves.
确实，我们有很多总统除了他们自己之外什么也没服务过。
So yeah, hopefully we'll get some more people that have some experience in the military.
所以，是的，希望我们能找到更多有军事经验的人。
Some combat experience would be especially nice, and that would be good in my opinion.
有一些战斗经验会特别好，我认为那会很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I'm certainly not one to tell people what to do, and I'm certainly not going to tell you what to do, but should you ever choose to run, I would certainly be very enthusiastic about that.
好吧，我当然不是一个告诉人们该做什么的人，我当然也不会告诉你该做什么，但如果你选择参选，我肯定会对此非常热衷。
And I will just say that with that stated, I hope people do hear what you just said.
我只想说，我希望人们能够听到你刚才所说的话。
I share that sentiment.
我也有同样的感受。
People who have led others besides themselves, I think is the key statement there.
我认为，那些领导过自己以外的人的人是关键的陈述。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Yeah, and look, I have friends that are politicians, and I really appreciate what they're doing, and it looks miserable to me.
是的，你看，我有一些政治家朋友，我真的很欣赏他们所做的事情，但对我来说这看起来很痛苦。
Good for them.
对他们有好处。
I'm happy that they're in there trying to make a difference.
我很高兴他们在那里努力做出改变。
And I guess this is me being selfish, of me saying, "Look, I don't think I could stomach that." And I also think that right now I'm trying to help out.
我想这是我自私的表现，我说：“听着，我认为我无法忍受这一点。”我也认为现在我正在努力提供帮助。
Like for instance, obviously we've got the Leadership Consulting International on front.
例如，显然我们有领导力咨询国际公司在前面。
We're trying to help businesses grow.
我们正在努力帮助企业发展。
I've got Origin USA.
我有 Origin USA。
We're bringing manufacturing back to America.
我们正在将制造业带回美国。
We've got 400, 450 employees right now that are here in America working and growing that business.
我们现在有 400 到 450 名员工在美国工作和发展这项业务。
Obviously, the supplements.
显然是补充品。
So everything that I'm doing here right now is to try and move the needle with America bringing manufacturing back, helping the economy as much as I can right now.
因此，我现在在这里所做的一切就是努力推动美国制造业回归，尽我所能帮助经济。
So that's what I'm doing right now.
这就是我现在正在做的事情。
And my standard answer, which you alluded to, is if things got bad enough, then I would do what I had to do, but I don't think people appreciate my level of bad.
你提到的我的标准答案是，如果事情变得足够糟糕，那么我会做我必须做的事情，但我认为人们不会欣赏我的糟糕程度。
I'm talking real bad.
我说得实在是太糟糕了。
So it's not there yet, and hopefully it never will get there.
所以它还没有到达那里，希望它永远不会到达那里。
I'd rather surf and hang out with my friends and hang out with my family than do that.
我宁愿冲浪、和我的朋友、家人一起出去玩，而不是那样做。
And hopefully America can find some level of balance.
希望美国能够找到某种程度的平衡。
I think that's the problem that we're having right now.
我认为这就是我们现在面临的问题。
And a lot of these things that you talked about, specifically the thing you talk about is social media is not very good for political balance.
您谈到的很多事情，特别是您谈到的社交媒体对于政治平衡不太有利。
It's actually horrible for political balance, and a lot of it has to do with just the way that those conversations are had.
这对于政治平衡来说实际上是可怕的，而且很大程度上与这些对话的方式有关。
A lot of it has to do with ego as well, because I don't ever want to admit that I'm wrong about anything.
这在很大程度上也与自我有关，因为我不想承认我在任何事情上都是错的。
And if I can find something that I think you might be wrong about, it's so satisfying to my ego to just call you out on that thing and attack you, and I think that's what a lot of people are doing right now.
如果我能找到一些我认为你可能错了的事情，那么我的自尊心就会非常满足，因为我会在这件事上大声疾呼并攻击你，我认为这就是很多人现在正在做的事情。
Now, that being said also, I also usually say this as well, I travel around the country all the time.
现在，话虽这么说，我也经常这么说，我一直在全国各地旅行。
I work with companies of all sizes, work with people in every different industry, and they're not sitting around arguing with each other about the political scenery.
我与各种规模的公司合作，与各个不同行业的人们合作，他们不会坐在一起争论政治局势。
They're talking about, "Hey, how can we grow our business?
他们在谈论，“嘿，我们如何发展我们的业务？
How can we take care of our workers?
我们如何照顾我们的工人？
How can we take care of our clients?
我们如何照顾我们的客户？
How can we take care of our customer?" That's what people are focused on.
我们如何照顾我们的顾客？”这就是人们所关注的。
And when you jump on social media, you can get sucked into the political scene very easily.
当你跳上社交媒体时，你很容易就会被卷入政治舞台。
And that being said also, we do have to pay attention because we as citizens have to make sure that America stays on the correct path within the guardrails of what this country is based on.
话虽这么说，我们确实必须注意，因为我们作为公民必须确保美国在这个国家基础的护栏内走在正确的道路上。
So we do have to pay attention.
所以我们一定要注意。
But I will be doing my part as a civilian until there's total mayhem and chaos in the streets.
但我将尽我作为一名平民的职责，直到街道上出现彻底的混乱和混乱。
Then I'll probably just be a benevolent dictator that takes over.
那我可能就只是一个仁慈的独裁者来接管。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Which would be an interesting one, but hey-
这将是一件有趣的事，但是嘿-
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Ah
啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
you would be the man to lead under any conditions.
在任何情况下，你都是领导者。
But thank you for stating your threshold.
但谢谢你说出你的门槛。
Certainly you've earned the right to make whatever decision it is that you feel is right for you.
当然，您已经赢得了做出您认为适合自己的任何决定的权利。
And I want to say that I agree.
我想说我同意。
I feel like we are a country that still includes a ton of generators and a ton of projectors that are interested in projecting the good and growing the good.
我觉得我们的国家仍然拥有大量的发电机和大量的投影仪，它们对投射美好事物和种植美好事物感兴趣。
I do believe both those phenotypes are important.
我确实相信这两种表型都很重要。
I also want to just say thank you for being a generator of so much useful knowledge.
我还想说谢谢您创造了如此多有用的知识。
In science we have a saying which is, if somebody is an N of 1.
在科学上我们有一句话，如果某人是 1 中的 N。
This is a rare thing to hear about oneself or to hear about somebody, because what it means is that somebody is in a category in which pretty much everything that they do and they say matters and serves a purpose, which is a useful and important building purpose.
这是很少听到关于自己或某人的事情，因为这意味着某人属于这样一个类别，在这个类别中，他们所做的和所说的几乎所有事情都很重要并服务于一个目的，这是一个有用且重要的建筑目的。
And I will look at you and tell you that you are an N of 1.
我会看着你，然后告诉你，你是 N of 1。
You certainly would meet that criteria under any conditions.
在任何条件下你肯定会满足这个标准。
And it's evident in the many companies that you're running and the leadership that you're doing, and also in your online presence.
这在您经营的许多公司和您的领导力以及您的在线形象中都很明显。
That's how I initially came to learn about you.
这就是我最初了解你的方式。
I'm now fortunate to have had two lengthy conversations with you and a few interspersed as well.
我现在很幸运能够与您进行两次冗长的谈话，并且还穿插了一些谈话。
And I think of myself as a reasonable to perhaps good observer of how people behave in different domains.
我认为自己是一个合理的、甚至可能是良好的观察者，能够观察人们在不同领域的行为方式。
And every time you post or every time you speak or every time you go on a podcast or host a podcast, it's clear that not only are you prepared and not only are you Approaching it with a spirit of seriousness that it deserves, but sometimes also lightness that it deserves.
每次你发帖、每次讲话、每次上播客或主持播客时，很明显，你不仅做好了准备，而且不仅以应有的严肃精神来对待它，有时还以应有的轻松态度来对待它。
But there's always an element of give, and that you're trying to encourage people to do better for themselves.
但总有一种给予的元素，你试图鼓励人们为自己做得更好。
So as somebody who's greatly benefited from the knowledge that you've put out there, from the very first Tim Ferriss and Joe Rogan episodes to your own podcast, I want to extend a personal thanks.
因此，作为一个从您所提供的知识中受益匪浅的人，从蒂姆·费里斯和乔·罗根的第一集到您自己的播客，我想表达个人的谢意。
I also want to extend great thanks for coming on here today, talking to a geek scientist but who also happens to be a fellow punk rocker, because that spirit and the heart that's behind it, I think some people think it's all about noise and chaos.
我还要非常感谢今天来到这里，与一位极客科学家交谈，但他也恰好是一位朋克摇滚歌手，因为这种精神和背后的内心，我认为有些人认为这一切都是关于噪音和混乱。
It's actually about being really true to yourself.
这实际上是关于真正忠于自己。
That's how I think about the punk rock spirit, is really about being true to yourself and realizing that the thing that you like, while it might be quite different, is actually if that's you, you have to live in that vein and stick with it.
这就是我对朋克摇滚精神的看法，真正是忠于自己，认识到你喜欢的东西，虽然可能完全不同，但实际上，如果那是你，你必须以这种方式生活并坚持下去。
And it certainly served me well, and it sounds like it served you well.
这确实对我很有帮助，听起来也对你很有帮助。
But mostly I just want to extend an enormous thank you.
但最重要的是，我只想表达深深的谢意。
As a civilian, thank you for the work you did in the military, but also teaching people about the military.
作为一名平民，感谢您在军队中所做的工作，同时也向人们传授了军事知识。
I think a lot of people don't realize what it's about at any level, and learning about your experience there and what you've observed, bringing other people's experiences from the military more broadly is super important.
我认为很多人在任何层面上都没有意识到这意味着什么，了解你在那里的经历和你所观察到的情况，从更广泛的军队中汲取其他人的经验是非常重要的。
And sharing this and being able to entertain some of my scientific riffs.
分享这个并能够娱乐我的一些科学即兴表演。
So thank you.
所以谢谢你。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Well, I appreciate it.
嗯，我很感激。
It's kind of weird you say all these nice things to me.
你对我说这些好话有点奇怪。
I definitely don't deserve them.
我绝对配不上他们。
I'm kind of a regular dude that just kind of showed up, I guess, at the right time and told some stories about some guys that were true heroes, and just trying to share my perspective.
我是一个普通人，我想，只是在正确的时间出现，讲述了一些关于一些真正英雄的故事，只是想分享我的观点。
But it's not just my perspective.
但这不仅仅是我的观点。
I'm talking about stories that I lived, but there's plenty of people that have done way more than I've ever done and sacrificed infinitely more than I ever sacrificed.
我说的是我经历过的故事，但有很多人所做的事情比我做过的多得多，付出的牺牲也比我牺牲的多得多。
So I'm thankful for being here.
所以我很感谢来到这里。
I know that you put all kinds of information, and the same back at you.
我知道你提供了各种各样的信息，而同样的信息也返回给你。
I have greatly benefited from the information that you put out, and so I thank you as well, and appreciate coming on here and appreciate you spreading the word about how people can be better yourself.
我从您提供的信息中受益匪浅，因此我也感谢您，并感谢您来到这里并感谢您传播有关人们如何变得更好的自己的信息。
So thanks for having me.
所以谢谢你邀请我。
I appreciate it, man.
我很感激，伙计。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Appreciate you and appreciate this time, and let's do it again.
感谢你们，感谢这一次，我们再来一次。
Jocko Willink:
乔科·威林克：
Check.
检查。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Jocko Willink.
感谢您参加今天与 Jocko Willink 的讨论。
I hope you learned as much as I did in terms of actionable knowledge to use in our everyday lives.
我希望您能像我一样学到可在日常生活中使用的实用知识。
If you'd like to learn more about Jocko's work and the various things he's involved in, please check out "The Jocko Podcast".
如果您想了解更多关于 Jocko 的工作以及他参与的各种事情，请查看“Jocko 播客”。
Please also check out the various links in the show note captions to Jocko's excellent books on leadership, both for adults and for kids, and check out some of the other links that relate to some of his other business ventures.
另请查看节目注释标题中的各种链接，这些链接指向乔科（Jocko）针对成人和儿童的优秀领导力书籍，并查看与他的其他一些商业企业相关的一些其他链接。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on Spotify and Apple.
此外，请订阅 Spotify 和 Apple 上的播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。
If you have questions for us or topics that you'd like us to cover or guests that you'd like me to include on the "Huberman Lab Podcast", please put those suggestions in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我们有疑问，或者您希望我们报道的主题，或者您希望我在“Huberman Lab Podcast”中加入的嘉宾，请在 YouTube 的评论部分提出这些建议。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
In addition, please check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
此外，请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
On various episodes of the "Huberman Lab Podcast", we discuss supplements.
在“休伯曼实验室播客”的各个剧集中，我们讨论了补充剂。
While supplements aren't necessary for everybody, many people derive tremendous benefit from them, for things like enhancing sleep, focus, hormone support, and many other features of mental health, physical health, and performance.
虽然补充剂并不是每个人都需要的，但许多人都从它们中获得了巨大的好处，例如增强睡眠、注意力、激素支持以及心理健康、身体健康和表现的许多其他功能。
The "Huberman Lab Podcast" is proud to be partnered with Momentous supplements.
“Huberman 实验室播客”很荣幸能与 Momentous 补充剂合作。
Momentous supplements are of the very highest quality, and they focus on single-ingredient formulations, which is very important if you are going to develop the most cost-effective and biologically effective supplement regimen for you.
重要的补充剂具有最高的质量，并且专注于单一成分配方，如果您要为您开发最具成本效益和生物有效的补充剂方案，这一点非常重要。
In addition, they ship internationally, which is important because I know many of you reside outside of the United States.
此外，它们还进行国际运输，这一点很重要，因为我知道你们中的许多人居住在美国境外。
If you'd like to see the supplements discussed on this podcast, you can go to livemomentous.com/huberman, and there you can also get 20% off any of Momentous' supplements.
如果您想查看此播客中讨论的补充剂，可以访问 livemomentous.com/huberman，在那里您还可以获得 Momentous 任何补充剂 20% 的折扣。
If you're not already following us on social media, we are hubermanlab on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我们，我们在 Instagram、Twitter、Facebook 和 LinkedIn 上是 hubermanlab。
And in particular on Instagram, I cover science and science-related tools, some of which overlap with the contents of the "Huberman Lab Podcast", much of which is distinct, however, from the contents of the "Huberman Lab Podcast".
特别是在 Instagram 上，我介绍了科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与“Huberman Lab Podcast”的内容重叠，但其中大部分与“Huberman Lab Podcast”的内容不同。
Again, it's hubermanlab on all social media platforms.
再说一遍，所有社交媒体平台上都是 hubermanlab。
And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, it's a zero-cost monthly newsletter.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络通讯，这是一份零成本的每月通讯。
You simply sign up with your email by going to hubermanlab.com.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，使用您的电子邮件进行注册即可。
The newsletter includes summaries of podcast episodes.
该时事通讯包括播客剧集的摘要。
We have toolkits for sleep, toolkits for focus, toolkits related to deliberate cold exposure, heat exposure, and much, much more.
我们有睡眠工具包、专注工具包、与故意冷暴露、热暴露相关的工具包，等等。
Again, all zero cost.
再次强调，一切都是零成本。
You provide your email to sign up.
您提供您的电子邮件进行注册。
We do not share your email with anybody.
我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
There are also sample newsletters there that you don't even need to sign up for.
那里还有示例新闻通讯，您甚至不需要注册。
You can just download the PDF or just view them on your computer or phone screen.
您可以直接下载 PDF 或在计算机或手机屏幕上查看它们。
Thank you once again for joining me for my discussion with Jocko Willink, and as always, thank you for your interest in science.
再次感谢您加入我与乔科·威林克的讨论，并一如既往地感谢您对科学的兴趣。