Jeff Cavaliere: Optimize Your Exercise Program with Science-Based Tools

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

欢迎来到休伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。

Today my guest is Jeff Cavaliere.

今天我的嘉宾是杰夫·卡瓦利埃。

Jeff Cavaliere holds a master of science in physical therapy and is a certified strength and conditioning specialist.

杰夫·卡瓦利埃 (Jeff Cavaliere) 拥有物理治疗理学硕士学位，并且是经过认证的体能专家。

He did his training at the University of Connecticut, Storrs, one of the top five programs in the world in physical therapy and sports medicine.

他在康涅狄格大学斯托斯分校接受培训，该大学是物理治疗和运动医学领域世界排名前五的项目之一。

I discovered Jeff Cavaliere over 10 years ago from his online content.

十多年前，我通过 Jeff Cavaliere 的在线内容发现了他。

His online content includes information about how to train for strength; how to train for hypertrophy, which is muscle growth; how to train for endurance; as well as how to rehabilitate injuries to avoid muscular imbalances; nutrition; and supplementation.

他的在线内容包括有关如何进行力量训练的信息；如何进行肥大训练，即肌肉生长；如何训练耐力；以及如何康复损伤以避免肌肉失衡；营养;和补充。

I've always found his content to be incredibly science-based, incredibly clear, sometimes surprising, and always incredibly actionable.

我一直发现他的内容非常有科学依据，非常清晰，有时令人惊讶，而且总是非常具有可操作性。

It is therefore not surprising that he has one of the largest online platforms for fitness, nutrition, supplementation, and injury rehabilitation.

因此，他拥有最大的健身、营养、补充和损伤康复在线平台之一也就不足为奇了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Jeff has also worked with an enormous number of professional athletes and has served as head physical therapist and assistant strength coach for the New York Mets.

杰夫还与大量职业运动员合作过，并担任纽约大都会队的首席物理治疗师和助理力量教练。

Again, the content that Jeff Cavaliere has posted online has been so immensely useful to me over the years that I was absolutely thrilled to get the chance to sit down with him and ask him about everything from how to train in terms of how to split up the body parts that you train across the week, how to integrate strength training and endurance training, when to stretch, how to stretch.

再说一遍，杰夫·卡瓦利埃（Jeff Cavaliere）多年来在网上发布的内容对我非常有用，我非常高兴有机会与他坐下来，向他询问一切，从如何训练，如何分割一周训练的身体部位，如何整合力量训练和耐力训练，何时伸展，如何伸展。

Indeed, we talked about nutrition, we talk a bit about supplementation.

事实上，我们谈论了营养，我们谈论了一些补充。

We talk about how to really avoid creating imbalances in muscle and in neural control over muscle.

我们讨论如何真正避免造成肌肉和肌肉神经控制的不平衡。

This is one thing that's really wonderful about Jeff, he really has an understanding of not just how muscles and bones and tendons and ligaments work together, but how the nervous system interfaces with those.

这是杰夫真正精彩的一件事，他不仅真正了解肌肉、骨骼、肌腱和韧带如何协同工作，而且了解神经系统如何与这些相互作用。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We talked about the mental side of training, including when to bring specific concentration to the muscles that you're training, and when to think more about how to move weights through space and think more about the movements overall.

我们讨论了训练的心理方面，包括何时将特定的注意力集中到正在训练的肌肉上，何时更多地考虑如何在空间中移动重量以及更多地考虑整体运动。

I'm certain that you'll find the conversation that we held to be immensely useful and informative for your fitness practices and also for how you mentally approach fitness in general and how to set up a lifelong fitness practice, one that will give you the strength that you desire, one that will give you the aesthetic results that you desire, one that will set you up for endurance and cardiovascular health.

我确信您会发现我们举行的对话对于您的健身练习以及您如何从心理上对待健身以及如何建立终生的健身练习非常有用且信息丰富，一种会给您带来所需的力量，一种会给您带来所需的美学效果，一种将为您的耐力和心血管健康奠定基础。

Basically an overall fitness program.

基本上是一个整体的健身计划。

I really feel this is where Jeff Cavaliere shines above and beyond so many of the other PTs in fitness, so-called influencers that are out there.

我真的觉得这就是杰夫·卡瓦利埃 (Jeff Cavaliere) 超越健身领域其他许多 PT（即所谓的影响者）的地方。

Again, everything is grounded in science, everything is clear, and everything is actionable.

再说一遍，一切都有科学依据，一切都是清楚的，一切都是可操作的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And while we do cover an enormous amount of information during today's episode, if you want to dive even deeper into that information, you can go to athleanx.com, where you'll find some of Jeff's programs.

虽然我们在今天的节目中确实涵盖了大量信息，但如果您想更深入地了解这些信息，您可以访问 athleanx.com，在那里您可以找到 Jeff 的一些节目。

You can also find him at ATHLEAN-X on YouTube.

您还可以在 YouTube 上的 ATHLEAN-X 中找到他。

There you'll find videos, for instance like how to repair or heal from lower back pain, something that I actually followed directly long before I ever met Jeff, has over 32 million views.

在那里你会找到一些视频，例如如何修复或治愈腰痛，我实际上在认识 Jeff 之前很久就直接关注过这些视频，观看次数超过 3200 万次。

And that is not by accident, it is because the protocols there, again, are surprising and actionable.

这并非偶然，而是因为那里的协议再次令人惊讶且可操作。

They relieved my back pain very quickly without surgery.

他们无需手术就很快缓解了我的背痛。

So I'm immensely grateful for that content and it extends into everything from, again, hypertrophy, endurance, and straight training and so on.

所以我非常感谢这些内容，它又延伸到了一切，从增肌、耐力到直接训练等等。

Again, it's athleanx.com, that's the website, ATHLEAN-X on YouTube, and also athleanx on Instagram.

再说一次，它是 athleanx.com，就是这个网站，YouTube 上的 ATHLEAN-X，Instagram 上的 athleanx。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The Huberman Lab podcast is proud to announce that we've partnered with Momentous supplements.

Huberman Lab 播客自豪地宣布我们已与 Momentous 补充剂合作。

We've done that for several reasons.

我们这样做有几个原因。

First of all, the quality of their supplements is exceedingly high.

首先，他们的补品质量非常高。

Second of all, we wanted to have a location where you could find all of the supplements discussed on the Huberman Lab podcast in one easy-to-find place.

其次，我们希望有一个位置，您可以在一个容易找到的地方找到 Huberman Lab 播客上讨论的所有补充剂。

You can now find that place at livemomentous.com/Huberman.

您现在可以在 livemomentous.com/Huberman 找到该地点。

In addition, Momentous supplements ship internationally, something that a lot of other supplement companies simply do not do.

此外，Momentous 补充剂在全球范围内发货，这是许多其他补充剂公司根本不做的事情。

So that's terrific whether or not you live in the U.S. or you live abroad.

因此，无论您居住在美国还是居住在国外，这都很棒。

Right now, not all of the supplements that we discuss on the Huberman Lab podcast are listed, but that catalog of supplements is being expanded very rapidly, and a good number of them that we've talked about, some of the more prominent ones for sleep and focus and other aspects of mental and physical health, are already there.

目前，我们在 Huberman Lab 播客上讨论的补充剂并未全部列出，但补充剂目录正在迅速扩大，我们讨论过的很多补充剂，其中一些针对睡眠和注意力以及精神和身体健康其他方面的更重要的补充剂，已经在那里了。

Again, you can find them at livemomentous.com/Huberman.

同样，您可以在 livemomentous.com/Huberman 找到它们。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。

It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是将有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息带给公众。

In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

为了与这个主题保持一致，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And now for my discussion with Jeff Cavaliere.

现在我与杰夫·卡瓦利埃进行讨论。

Jeff, such a pleasure for me to have you here.

杰夫，我很高兴你能来到这里。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

I'm glad to be here.

我很高兴来到这里。

It's amazing.

太棒了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm a longtime consumer of your content.

我是您内容的长期消费者。

I've learned a tremendous amount about fitness, both in the weight room, cardio, nutrition, things that I've applied for over a decade.

我学到了很多关于健身的知识，包括举重室、有氧运动、营养，这些都是我十多年来所应用的。

So for me, this is particularly meaningful, and my goal here is really to ask a bunch of questions to which I'm interested in the answers, but also for which I know the audience is really curious about.

所以对我来说，这特别有意义，我在这里的目标实际上是提出一堆我对答案感兴趣的问题，但我也知道观众对此真的很好奇。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So one of your mantras is, "If you want to look like an athlete, train like an athlete," and I think that's something really special that sets aside what you do from what a lot of other very well-qualified people do.

所以你的口头禅之一是，“如果你想看起来像一名运动员，就像运动员一样训练”，我认为这是非常特别的，它将你所做的事情与许多其他非常有资格的人所做的事情区分开来。

And in terms of the use of weights and resistance, whether or not it's body weight or weights in the gym or pulleys versus cardio, in terms of overall health, aesthetics, and athleticism, is there a way that you could point to the idea that maybe people should be doing 50% resistance training and 50% cardio?

就重量和阻力的使用而言，无论是体重还是健身房的重量，还是滑轮与有氧运动，就整体健康、美观和运动能力而言，有没有一种方法可以表明人们应该进行 50% 的阻力训练和 50% 有氧运动？

Maybe it's 70/30, maybe it's 30/70, and here I'm talking about the typical person who would like to maintain or maybe even add some muscle mass.

也许是 70/30，也许是 30/70，这里我谈论的是那些想要保持甚至增加一些肌肉质量的典型人。

Probably in particular areas, for most people, as opposed to just overall mass, although we'll talk about that later.

对于大多数人来说，可能是在特定区域，而不是总体质量，尽管我们稍后会讨论这一点。

And people want to maintain a relatively low body fat percentage and be in good cardiovascular health.

人们希望保持相对较低的体脂百分比并保持良好的心血管健康。

What's the sort of contour of a basic program that anybody could think about as a starting place?

任何人都可以将其作为起点的基本程序的轮廓是什么？

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

I think it's like a 60/40 split, which would be leaning towards weight training — strength — and then the conditioning aspect be about 40%.

我认为这就像 60/40 的分配，倾向于重量训练——力量——然后体能方面大约占 40%。

So if you look at it over a course of a training week, I mean five days in a gym would be a great task.

因此，如果你从一周的训练过程来看，我的意思是在健身房呆五天将是一项艰巨的任务。

And obviously not in the gym.

显然不是在健身房。

It could be done at home, but three days strength training, Monday, Wednesday, Friday; conditioning Tuesday, Thursday, two days.

可以在家做，但是三天力量训练，周一、周三、周五；周二周四两天调理。

It's a pretty easy, roundabout way to split that up.

这是一种非常简单、迂回的分割方式。

Of course, depending upon training goals and, as you said, the aesthetic goals, that will shift dramatically.

当然，根据训练目标以及正如你所说的审美目标，这将会发生巨大的变化。

But if you want to see the benefits of both, that's probably the effective dose for strength training and the effective dose for conditioning at the bare minimum level.

但如果你想看到两者的好处，这可能是力量训练的有效剂量和体能训练的有效剂量的最低水平。

Again, being a much better performer, conditioning-wise, you're going to want to do more than that.

再说一次，作为一个在体能方面表现更好的人，你会想要做更多的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And in terms of the duration of those workouts, what's your suggestion?

就这些锻炼的持续时间而言，您有什么建议？

I've been weight training for about 30 years, running for about 30 years, and mainly for health, and have found that if I work hard in the gym or at resistance training for more than 60 minutes or so, it's very hard for me to recover.

我进行举重训练大约有30年，跑步也有大约30年，主要是为了健康，我发现如果我在健身房努力训练或者进行阻力训练超过60分钟左右，我就很难恢复。

I start getting colds, I start getting weaker from workout to workout.

我开始感冒，每次锻炼我都开始变得越来越虚弱。

But amazingly, at least to me, if I keep those workouts to about 10 minutes of warmup and 50, 5-0, minutes or so of really hard work for resistance training, and I keep the cardiovascular work to about 30 to 45 minutes, I feel great.

但令人惊讶的是，至少对我来说，如果我将这些锻炼保持在大约 10 分钟的热身和 50 分钟、5-0 分钟左右的真正艰苦的阻力训练，并且将心血管工作保持在大约 30 到 45 分钟，我会感觉很棒。

And I seem to make some progress, at least some place in the workout from workout to workout.

我似乎取得了一些进步，至少在一次又一次的锻炼中取得了一些进步。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Yeah, I mean those are good numbers because those are the kind of numbers that we usually preach.

是的，我的意思是这些都是很好的数字，因为这些是我们通常宣扬的数字。

We try to keep our workouts to an hour or less, if possible.

如果可能的话，我们尽量将锻炼时间控制在一个小时或更短。

Now, depending upon the split that you're following, if you're on a total-body split, there's just going to be more that has to be done in a given amount of time.

现在，根据您所遵循的分裂，如果您正在进行全身分裂，那么在给定的时间内必须完成更多的事情。

And again, if you're training primarily for strength, that could prolong the workout.

再说一次，如果你主要训练力量，这可能会延长锻炼时间。

Because the longer rest times in between sets, but in general when you're not focused on that one aspect, but the overall health picture, then you can get the job done in under an hour.

因为组间休息时间较长，但一般来说，当您不关注某一方面，而是关注整体健康状况时，您可以在一小时内完成工作。

And again, I always say, on top of "If you want to look like an athlete, train like an athlete" is, "You can either train long or you can train hard, but you can't do both." And I really believe that the focus for me, I have a busy life, I have a lot of other things that I do, believe it or not, and I want to go hard and I want to go get out.

再说一遍，我总是说，除了“如果你想看起来像一名运动员，就像运动员一样训练”之外，“你可以长时间训练，也可以刻苦训练，但你不能两者兼得。”我真的相信我的重点是，我的生活很忙碌，我还有很多其他的事情要做，不管你信不信，我想要努力，我想要出去。

And I find that my body also responds to that and I think a lot of guys' bodies respond to that.

我发现我的身体也会对此做出反应，我认为很多人的身体也会对此做出反应。

And particularly as you start to get older, I think it's the length of the workout that actually causes more problems than the intensity of what you're doing, particularly if you're warmed up properly, like you said.

特别是当你开始变老时，我认为锻炼的时间长度实际上比你正在做的事情的强度更能引起问题，特别是如果你像你说的那样进行了适当的热身。

I've found, personally, that my warmup has had to become more of an integral part of my workout than it ever has before.

我个人发现，我的热身比以往任何时候都必须成为我锻炼中不可或缺的一部分。

I could get in the gym when I was 20, and I'm going right over, I'm doing the one set, two sets, I'm ready to go.

我20岁的时候就可以去健身房了，我马上就过去，我正在做一组、两组，我已经准备好了。

And I never do another workout warmup set for any of the other exercise I do the rest of the day.

我从来没有为当天剩下的时间做的任何其他运动做另一组锻炼热身。

That's not true anymore.

那不再是真的了。

And I found that as long as I'm willing to give myself a little bit of a warmup, the intensity is not what bothers me.

我发现只要我愿意给自己一点热身，强度就不会困扰我。

I'm very much in control of the weights that I use and it doesn't bother me.

我可以很好地控制自己使用的重量，这并不困扰我。

But if I start to go pretty long, I start to feel achy, or I start to have problems.

但如果我开始走很长时间，我就会开始感到疼痛，或者开始出现问题。

So again, depending upon age, that also plays a factor in the length.

同样，根据年龄，这也会影响长度。

But again, I think everybody, on a standard program, can achieve the results that they want within an hour.

但我再次认为，按照标准计划，每个人都可以在一小时内达到他们想要的结果。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In terms of splits, you mentioned splits, and so for those who aren't familiar with this term "splits," it's really which body parts are you training on which days.

在劈叉方面，您提到了劈叉，因此对于那些不熟悉“劈叉”这个术语的人来说，实际上是您在哪一天训练哪些身体部位。

Seems like almost everybody follows a weekly workout schedule, although the body, of course, doesn't care about the week, right?

似乎几乎每个人都遵循每周的锻炼计划，尽管身体当然不关心一周，对吗？

There's no reason to think that once every seven days or twice every seven days makes sense physiologically, it's just the body doesn't work that ...

没有理由认为每七天一次或每七天两次在生理上是有意义的，只是身体不工作而已……

but that's the way life is structured.

但这就是生活的结构方式。

I've seen you discuss three days a week, whole-body workouts.

我见过你讨论每周三天的全身锻炼。

I've heard of splits like pushing one day, pulling another day, legs another day, a day off, repeat.

我听说过劈叉，比如一天推，另一天拉，另一天腿，休息一天，重复。

There's so many variations on this.

这有很多变体。

What are some general themes that we can throw out there?

我们可以抛出哪些一般主题？

And in order to avoid the huge matrix of possibilities, you have some wonderful content that points to those, and in our caption show notes we will link out to some of those different ways to design splits.

为了避免巨大的可能性矩阵，您有一些精彩的内容指向这些内容，在我们的标题显示注释中，我们将链接到其中一些设计拆分的不同方法。

But in terms of giving people a logic of how to think about splitting up body parts, what's governing the split?

但就为人们提供如何思考分割身体部位的逻辑而言，是什么控制着分割呢？

What are the rules and the logic that dictate a split?

决定分裂的规则和逻辑是什么？

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

For me, the first rule is, will you stick to it, right?

对我来说，第一条规则是，你会遵守吗？

Because I don't particularly like full-body splits.

因为我不太喜欢全身劈叉。

I was actually talking to Jesse about that the other day.

事实上，前几天我正在和杰西谈论这件事。

I don't necessarily like to have to train everything.

我不一定喜欢训练所有的东西。

Now, of course, the volumes will come down per muscle group, but if you don't like to do that and you actually don't look forward to your workout because you're dreading having to do everything and feeling maybe too fatigued by the time your workout's over, or the fact that those generally do take a little bit longer and don't fit into your schedule.

当然，现在每个肌肉群的训练量都会下降，但如果你不喜欢这样做，而且你实际上并不期待你的锻炼，因为你害怕必须做所有的事情，并且在锻炼结束时感觉可能太疲劳，或者事实上这些锻炼通常需要更长的时间并且不适合你的日程安排。

I don't care how effective the split is, a split not done is not effective.

我不在乎分割有多有效，不分割就没有效果。

So you need to find one that fits.

所以你需要找到一个合适的。

So maybe you go into an alternative option like push-pull legs, like you mentioned.

因此，也许您会选择另一种选择，例如推拉腿，就像您提到的那样。

And that could be done either one cycle through the week, on a Monday, Wednesday, Friday split, or it could be twice in a week.

这可以每周一次、周一、周三、周五进行一次，也可以一周两次。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

So actually training six times, where you repeat it, pull-push legs, pull-push legs, or however you want to do it, with either a day off in between the three days or at the end of the six days.

所以实际上训练六次，你重复训练，拉推腿，拉推腿，或者你想怎么做，三天之间或六天结束时休息一天。

And again, that actually impacts your schedule.

再说一次，这实际上会影响你的日程安排。

I've broken that down before, where if you put it in between the three days, it's good because you're giving yourself an extra rest day in between.

我之前已经分解过，如果你把它放在三天之间，那就很好，因为你在中间给了自己一个额外的休息日。

But it starts to shift that day off every week as we wrap around.

但当我们结束时，它开始每周都会改变这一天。

So for those guys that were choosing that seven-day schedule out of convenience, in our heads, it starts to mess with that off day.

因此，对于那些出于方便而选择 7 天日程的人来说，在我们看来，这开始扰乱休息日。

So others like to just keep it predictably, let's say, on a Sunday, and train six days in a row.

因此，其他人喜欢保持可预测的状态，比如说在周日，连续训练六天。

But that's a better way to group similar muscle actions together.

但这是将相似的肌肉动作组合在一起的更好方法。

Which, I definitely prefer that, because if I'm going to be training pulling movements, at least there's a synergy between them, and I feel like I'm looking to achieve one goal that day.

我绝对更喜欢这一点，因为如果我要训练拉动作，至少它们之间有协同作用，而且我觉得我希望那天能够实现一个目标。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

And then, quite honestly, you can go back to the bro-split days and those still work effectively.

然后，老实说，你可以回到兄弟分手的日子，那些日子仍然有效。

There's a reason why they worked in the past.

他们过去工作是有原因的。

I think that science shows that there are smarter ways to do them these days.

我认为科学表明现在有更聪明的方法可以做到这一点。

You can come back and hit a related muscle.

你可以回来击打相关的肌肉。

So you could do, let's say, biceps on one day and then come back two days later and do back, realizing, again, synergy between the exercises there.

所以你可以一天做二头肌，然后两天后回来再做，再次意识到那里的练习之间的协同作用。

Your biceps are going to get stimulated again.

你的二头肌将再次受到刺激。

So you could figure out ways to make that work.

所以你可以想办法让它发挥作用。

But the thing that I think is effective there is that tends to be one of the ones that people like the most because they can go in, they get their pump, they feel good.

但我认为那里有效的事情往往是人们最喜欢的事情之一，因为他们可以进去，他们得到他们的泵，他们感觉很好。

It's pretty solely focused on one muscle group.

它完全专注于一个肌肉群。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Is that the definition of a bro split?

这就是兄弟分裂的定义吗？

One-

一-

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

One muscle group a day, yeah.

每天一个肌肉群，是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I see.

我明白了。

So it's very much geared towards strength and aesthetics, really maximizing chest one day-

所以它非常注重力量和美观，有一天真的会最大化胸部——

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Probably more aesthetics than strength, yeah.

也许美学比力量更重要，是的。

Yeah, you're just-

是的，你只是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Hence the "bro," for the bro name.

因此，兄弟的名字就叫“兄弟”。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

For the bro, right.

为了兄弟，对吧。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

But again, and here I am a science guy, and I could appreciate the benefits of a bro split, especially because, again, to what end, whose goal are we trying to achieve here?

但再说一次，我是一个科学人，我可以欣赏兄弟分裂的好处，特别是因为，再一次，我们在这里试图实现谁的目标？

Theirs or ours?

他们的还是我们的？

If I'm applying my standards and my goals or even athletic ideals, but they just want to get in shape, then it's perfectly fine to do a bro split in that instance.

如果我应用我的标准和目标，甚至运动理想，但他们只是想保持体形，那么在这种情况下进行兄弟分裂是完全可以的。

If you're sticking to it, again, and you're seeing the results that you want to see from it, but they're able to really keep their focus on one muscle they get to focus on.

如果你再次坚持下去，并且你会看到你想要从中看到的结果，但他们能够真正将注意力集中在他们需要关注的一块肌肉上。

Look, a lot of times people struggle with the way an exercise feels until their second or third set, they don't have that proprioceptive ability to kind of lock in on an exercise.

看，很多时候人们在第二组或第三组之前都在与练习的感觉作斗争，他们没有那种锁定练习的本体感受能力。

So spending a few, not only sets on the same exercise, but then doing another exercise with the same muscle group helps them to dial in a little bit better and get more out of their training.

因此，花一些时间，不仅进行相同的练习，而且然后用相同的肌肉群进行另一项练习，可以帮助他们更好地调整并从训练中获得更多。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That raised a really interesting, and I think important, question — early on when I started resistance training, which was when I was 16, in high school, I got in touch with and I was learning from Mike Mentzer.

这提出了一个非常有趣且我认为很重要的问题——早在我开始阻力训练时，也就是我 16 岁的高中时，我就接触了 Mike Mentzer，并向他学习。

Right-

右-

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Me too.

我也是。

Me too.

我也是。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Interesting.

有趣。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

That's crazy.

太疯狂了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And Mike was very helpful, very, very helpful.

迈克非常乐于助人，非常非常乐于助人。

We got to be friendly.

我们必须保持友好。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

So I just read his book.

所以我就读了他的书。

I didn't get a chance to meet him, so I'm jealous.

我没有机会见到他，所以我很嫉妒。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, back then there was no internet.

嗯，那时候还没有互联网。

I paid by Western Union-type thing to send him some money.

我通过西联汇款之类的方式给他寄了一些钱。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

From the back of the magazine.

从杂志背面。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And then he got on the phone with me, and my mother, at the time was like, "Why is this grown man calling the house?" And he gave me a very straightforward split, which was shoulders and arms one day.

然后他和我通了电话，我妈妈当时就说，“为什么这个成年人给家里打电话？”他给了我一个非常简单的劈叉，有一天是肩膀和手臂。

He had me taking two days off and then training legs, and then two days off and then chest and back, et cetera.

他让我休息两天，然后训练腿部，然后休息两天，然后训练胸部和背部，等等。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

And that's a variation of a bro split too, where you're sort breaking them down that way — chest and back, or chest and bis, you know.

这也是兄弟劈叉的一种变体，你可以用这种方式将它们分解——胸部和背部，或者胸部和双侧，你知道。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And they worked very well for me.

他们对我来说非常有效。

I probably would've, because of my age I think, and because I was largely untrained, I think would've grown on many different programs.

我可能会，因为我想，因为我的年龄，而且因为我基本上没有受过训练，我想我会在许多不同的项目中成长。

But it worked very well for me.

但它对我来说非常有效。

I eventually made that an every other day thing.

我最终把它变成了每隔一天的事情。

Shoulders, arms, day off; legs, day or two off.

肩膀、手臂，休息一天；腿，休息一两天。

Because if you hit legs right, at least for me, I'm not training the next day.

因为如果你的腿打得对，至少对我来说，第二天我就不会训练。

And then I'm not doing much of anything athletic the next day, and then chest and back and repeat and so on.

然后第二天我就不做太多运动了，然后是胸部和背部，然后重复等等。

And the reason I found that helpful is I almost always recovered between workouts.

我发现它有帮助的原因是我几乎总是在锻炼之间恢复。

The six day a week program of push-pull legs, push-pull legs to me seems excruciating from two standpoints.

从两个角度来看，每周六天的推拉腿计划对我来说似乎令人难以忍受。

One is, at least with my recovery abilities or lack of recovery abilities, I can't imagine coming back feeling fresh.

一是，至少以我的恢复能力或缺乏恢复能力，我无法想象回来时会感到新鲜。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And the other one is if I'm in the gym more than four days a week, I really start to fatigue about the whole psychological experience of it.

另一个是，如果我每周去健身房超过四天，我真的开始对它的整个心理体验感到疲劳。

Whereas if I'm in there three or four days a week — in other words, if I put a day off in between each workout, I really want to be there, and I get in there with a lot of fire, and I'm also doing other things on the off days.

然而，如果我每周在那里呆三到四天——换句话说，如果我在每次锻炼之间休息一天，我真的很想去那里，而且我会带着很大的热情去那里，而且我也在休息日做其他事情。

So I love that you mentioned the split that you'll stick to and that you can bring the intensity to.

所以我喜欢你提到的你会坚持的分裂，你可以带来强度。

Because I think that that's really important.

因为我认为这非常重要。

I sometimes hear about two-a-day training.

我有时听说一天两次的培训。

I've done two-a-day training twice in my lifetime, both times I got sick two days later.

我一生中进行过两次一天两次的训练，两次都是在两天后生病的。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Yeah, no that's-

是的，不，那是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's correlation, not causation.

这是相关性，而不是因果关系。

But is there ever an instance where two-a-day weight training makes sense for the non-drug-assisted, typical-recovery-ability person?

但是，对于没有药物辅助、具有典型恢复能力的人来说，一天两次的重量训练是否有意义呢？

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

I actually think it makes sense in some scenarios, but it doesn't make sense practically for a lot of people's schedule.

我实际上认为这在某些情况下是有意义的，但对于很多人的日程安排来说实际上没有意义。

So if you could break down, let's say you were going to do even some version of a total body session, or maybe you're going to do an upper-lower split.

因此，如果您可能会崩溃，那么假设您将进行某种形式的全身训练，或者可能您将进行上下分体训练。

You could do an upper workout and do the anterior chain or the pushing portion of that in one session and then come back and do the pulling session later on at night, if you had the opportunity to.

如果有机会的话，您可以在一次训练中进行上半身训练并进行前链或推力部分，然后在晚上晚些时候回来进行拉力训练。

The thing that you benefit from there is the freshness of focus.

你从中受益的是焦点的新鲜感。

Again, something, in my head, is sacrificed by the time you get towards the latter half of whatever workout you're in.

再说一遍，在我看来，当你进行任何锻炼的后半段时，都会牺牲一些东西。

To the same point you made before, when you start to approach that 50 minutes, an hour mark, you are either losing focus, you're losing energy, you're losing contractile ability, or losing something.

正如您之前所说的那样，当您开始接近 50 分钟（即一个小时）时，您要么失去注意力，要么失去能量，要么失去收缩能力，要么失去某些东西。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

And if you're relegating, whatever it is, the pulling portion of that to the end of that workout, something suffers.

如果你要降级，无论是什么，将其中的拉动部分拖到训练结束，就会有一些事情受到影响。

And if they realize that's happening, then maybe you switch them up the next time you do the workout, where the pulling portion of the upper workout goes first and then the pushing goes later.

如果他们意识到这种情况正在发生，那么也许你可以在下次锻炼时切换它们，先进行上部锻炼的拉部分，然后再进行推部分。

So you're at least not just continuing that cycle, but at the same time, if you were able to split them up, you get a chance to kind of take a break.

所以你至少不只是继续这个循环，但同时，如果你能够将它们分开，你就有机会休息一下。

You could have that freshness of focus again, and you could actually get a better effort in.

你可以重新获得那种新鲜的注意力，而且你实际上可以付出更好的努力。

Because again, I think effort drives the results.

因为我再次认为努力驱动结果。

So if the effort is not compromised, then you should be able to do that.

因此，如果不影响努力，那么您应该能够做到这一点。

But systemically, is that a problem?

但从系统角度来说，这是一个问题吗？

And I think that it is a problem for a lot of people.

我认为这对很多人来说都是一个问题。

It's just hard to rev the engine up a lot of times in the day.

一天中很难多次加速发动机。

You warm that thing up once, It's like that car in the winter.

你把那东西加热一次，就像冬天的那辆车一样。

You get it going once, you're lucky, now you got to drive it the rest of the day.

你开过一次，你很幸运，现在你必须在一天剩下的时间里开它。

But put it in the garage and try to start it the next day, it's a problem.

但放在车库里，第二天尝试启动，就有问题了。

So young people can get away with it a lot more than older people could.

因此，年轻人比老年人更容易逃脱惩罚。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well I've never had a strong recovery quotient, but if I stick to this one day off in between, every once in a while, two days in a row of training.

好吧，我从来没有很强的恢复能力，但如果我坚持在训练之间休息一天，每隔一段时间，连续两天训练。

Maybe because I have to travel and I want to make sure I get all the workouts in kind of thing, I seem to be okay.

也许是因为我必须旅行，并且我想确保我得到所有的锻炼，我看起来还不错。

I like your example of warming up the car, spoken like a true East Coaster.

我喜欢你热车的例子，像真正的东过山车一样说话。

Those of us from the West Coast, I took a moment there.

我们这些来自西海岸的人，我在那里呆了一会儿。

But folks from the East Coast and the Midwest get it, and certainly from Europe.

但来自东海岸和中西部的人们，尤其是欧洲人，都明白这一点。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In terms of the mixing up of cardiovascular training and resistance training, same day, different day?

就心血管训练和阻力训练的混合而言，同一天还是不同天？

Which one should come first?

哪一个应该放在第一位？

Which one should come second?

哪一个应该排在第二位？

If one's main goals, again everyone listening has different goals, most people would like to either maintain or gain some muscle.

如果一个人的主要目标，同样每个人都有不同的目标，大多数人都想保持或增加一些肌肉。

I don't know many people that want to lose muscle.

我不知道有多少人想失去肌肉。

Maintain or gain some muscle, usually in specific locations on their body.

保持或增加一些肌肉，通常是在身体的特定位置。

Most people would like to be a bit leaner or a lot leaner.

大多数人都希望变得更瘦一点或更瘦一些。

There are a few people out there that are either naturally lean or actually just want to gain weight.

有一些人要么天生就瘦，要么实际上只是想增加体重。

But assuming that people want to get leaner, put on some muscle or maintain muscle and want to have a healthy heart and a healthy brain, which basically requires a healthy cardiovascular system, how would you incorporate cardiovascular work into the overall weekly regimen?

但假设人们想要变得更瘦，增加一些肌肉或保持肌肉，并且想要拥有健康的心脏和健康的大脑，这基本上需要健康的心血管系统，那么您如何将心血管工作纳入整体每周的养生法中呢？

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

So again, I think that the bare minimum is probably twice a week in terms of cardiovascular if you want to have some semblance of cardiovascular conditioning.

所以，我再次认为，如果你想进行一些心血管调理，就心血管而言，最低限度可能是每周两次。

But I think most people who actually need it more or want to pursue it more than that are going to need more time to do that.

但我认为大多数真正需要它或想要更多追求它的人将需要更多时间来做到这一点。

So at some point it can't just be relegated to a day off, or a day off from the weight training workouts.

因此，在某些时候，不能仅仅将其降级为休息一天，或停止举重训练。

So at some point it has to occur on the same day.

所以在某些时候它必须发生在同一天。

And in that case, I just like to put it ...

在这种情况下，我只想说......

if that is not your primary goal, but you're looking more for just the overall picture, the aesthetics you mentioned, putting muscle on in certain areas ...

如果这不是你的主要目标，但你更多地关注的是整体情况，你提到的美学，在某些领域加强力量......

then I would put it at the end of the workout.

然后我会把它放在锻炼的最后。

Because you don't want to in any way compromise the weight training workout.

因为您不想以任何方式妥协重量训练。

And as we've sort of referenced a couple times already, the intensity of those workouts is important, and we know there's a strength component to those workouts also that is going to be a helpful stimulus for growth.

正如我们已经提到过几次的那样，这些锻炼的强度很重要，而且我们知道这些锻炼也有力量成分，这将有助于刺激生长。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

So the conditioning, the cardio, that stuff done prior to any strength training workout, is likely going to impair your ability to perform at your best.

因此，在任何力量训练之前进行的体能训练、有氧运动可能会损害你发挥最佳状态的能力。

So unless it's just done for a quick little warmup in the beginning, but then it's not sustained long enough really to be of benefit for cardiovascular conditioning.

因此，除非一开始只是为了快速热身，但随后的持续时间不足以真正对心血管调节有益。

So I like to put that at the end, realizing that even if my effort level is lower, or my output is lower, if it's still placing a demand on my cardiac output to get that conditioning effect because I'm fatigued, it still has a demand on my cardiac output.

所以我喜欢把它放在最后，意识到即使我的努力水平较低，或者我的输出量较低，如果它仍然对我的心输出量提出要求以获得调节效果，因为我很疲劳，它仍然对我的心输出量有要求。

So it's still achieving its goal, but it didn't interfere with my main goal of being able to increase my performance in the gym.

所以它仍然实现了它的目标，但它并没有干扰我提高健身房表现的主要目标。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Got it.

明白了。

And in terms of the form of cardiovascular training, I've seen you do a number of, I have to say, very impressive high-intensity interval-type work.

在心血管训练的形式方面，我看到你做了一些，我不得不说，非常令人印象深刻的高强度间歇式训练。

So burpee-type work or pushups with crunches mixed into them.

因此，波比式运动或俯卧撑与仰卧起坐混合在一起。

Anyway, people can see your videos.

无论如何，人们可以看到您的视频。

I didn't describe those in the best way, but rather than on the treadmill or out jogging for 30, 45 minutes — is that because you prefer higher intensity, higher heart rate-type training, or is it because you live in cold Connecticut and you don't want to be out jogging on the roads in the middle of the winter?

我没有以最好的方式描述这些，但比起在跑步机上或户外慢跑 30、45 分钟，是因为你更喜欢更高强度、更高心率的训练，还是因为你住在寒冷的康涅狄格州，你不想在隆冬时节在路上慢跑？

What-

什么-

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

I think all the above.

我想以上都是。

Those are factors from a personal level, but I think that if we could blend function across these realms and not have such a delineation between "this is my weight training," and, "this is my conditioning," but figure out a way to blend them together, I always think that you've got a better opportunity to get that more well-rounded result.

这些都是个人层面的因素，但我认为，如果我们能够将这些领域的功能融合起来，而不是在“这是我的举重训练”和“这是我的体能训练”之间进行这样的划分，而是找到一种方法将它们融合在一起，我总是认为你有更好的机会获得更全面的结果。

And I like to mix up that straight conditioning work and also some of the footwork drills.

我喜欢将直接的体能训练和一些步法练习混合起来。

We have some high expectations for guys that come into our programs to just do some footwork drills.

我们对参加我们项目只是进行一些步法练习的人抱有很高的期望。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Like ladders.

就像梯子一样。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Like ladders or line drills or something.

比如梯子或者线钻之类的。

And what happens, people become intrigued and interested.

发生了什么，人们变得好奇和感兴趣。

"I haven't tried this since high school," and they become interested in just the challenge of it.

“自从高中以来我就没有尝试过这个”，他们只是对它的挑战感兴趣。

And then as we become almost distracted by the challenge, we're now finding ourselves conditioning.

然后，当我们几乎被挑战分散注意力时，我们发现自己正在适应。

And I always think that's an important part that sometimes you got to draw people in to show them what they might be interested in.

我一直认为这是一个重要的部分，有时你必须吸引人们参与进来，向他们展示他们可能感兴趣的东西。

And from the output or the effect of it, I just think that when you're able to blend, still maintain some of that strength training into the exercise.

从它的输出或效果来看，我只是认为当你能够混合时，仍然在练习中保持一些力量训练。

So as you mentioned, let's say I'm doing some kind of a push-up or burpee, there is an anaerobic component to that that is going to be helpful rather than just walking or just jogging.

正如您提到的，假设我正在做某种俯卧撑或立卧撑跳，其中有一个无氧成分，这比仅仅走路或慢跑会更有帮助。

Not to say that isn't an effective means for strict cardiac conditioning, it's one of the ways that we've had for centuries to do it.

并不是说这不是严格心脏调节的有效方法，而是我们几个世纪以来一直采用的方法之一。

But I just think that if we can blend it, then it becomes maybe a little bit more interesting, and you get some of those crossover benefits, and it doesn't become so segmented in terms of what we're trying to do.

但我只是认为，如果我们可以将它混合起来，那么它可能会变得更有趣一点，并且你会得到一些交叉的好处，并且就我们正在尝试做的事情而言，它不会变得如此细分。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I love the idea of bringing some mental challenge and some desire to improve a skill while conditioning.

我喜欢在训练时带来一些心理挑战和提高技能的愿望。

That's not something that I've thought of before, and it's simply because I've overlooked it, but it makes sense.

这不是我以前想到过的事情，只是因为我忽略了它，但它是有道理的。

Because my sister, who's reasonably fit, although I'm always trying to get her to do a bit more, she always asks me, "What should I take?" And I'm a believer in supplements for certain people in certain instances, but I keep telling her the behaviors and nutrition are going to have the greatest outsize positive effect.

因为我姐姐身体还算健康，虽然我总是试图让她多做一点，但她总是问我：“我应该吃什么？”我坚信某些人在某些情况下需要补充营养，但我一直告诉她，行为和营养将产生最大的积极影响。

And she loves things like dance classes, or kickboxing, these kinds of things which ...

她喜欢舞蹈课或跆拳道之类的事情，这些事情......

so it makes sense that if you can hook somebody on the conditioning aspect or the skill aspect and trick them into doing more cardio, so to speak, that's terrific.

因此，如果你能吸引某人在体能方面或技能方面并诱使他们做更多有氧运动，那么可以说，那就太棒了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Also, the neuroscientist in me just has to say, forgive me, that anytime you're engaging the two sets of motor neurons, the ones in your brain, the upper motor neurons, and the ones in your spinal cord ...

另外，我内心的神经科学家不得不说，请原谅我，任何时候你都在使用两组运动神经元，即大脑中的运动神经元、上运动神经元和脊髓中的运动神经元……

anytime you're engaging those upper motor neurons, which are for deliberate well-controlled action, you're doing a great thing for your brain in terms of brain longevity.

每当你调动那些上运动神经元（这些神经元负责有意识地控制良好的动作）时，你就在为你的大脑做一件伟大的事情，从而延长大脑的寿命。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So now I need to incorporate some actual skills into my training.

所以现在我需要将一些实际技能融入到我的训练中。

Going back to weight training a bit, one of the most important things I learned from you over the years was that when training to increase muscle size, to really think not so much about moving weights, but more about challenging muscles.

回到重量训练，这些年来我从你那里学到的最重要的事情之一是，在训练增加肌肉大小时，真正考虑的不是移动重量，而是更多地考虑挑战肌肉。

I also heard this from my friend Ben Pakulski — he was a bodybuilder, now he's into other aspects of fitness, teaches fitness, but — "Don't move weight to challenge muscles unless you're trying to power lift or something of that sort," which I'm not, immensely helpful.

我还从我的朋友 Ben Pakulski 那里听到了这一点——他是一名健美运动员，现在他进入了健身的其他方面，教授健身，但是——“除非你想尝试举重或类似的东西，否则不要通过移动重量来挑战肌肉”，这对我来说不是很有帮助。

But the other thing that I learned from you that I combined with that was this idea that certain muscles will grow better and get stronger much more easily.

但我从你那里学到的另一件事是，我结合了这一点，即某些肌肉会生长得更好，并且更容易变得更强。

Maybe even will recover better because of our ability to contract them really hard.

也许甚至会恢复得更好，因为我们有能力非常努力地收缩它们。

And this, what I call the Cavaliere test, which is, if I could paraphrase ...

这就是我所说的骑士测试，如果我可以解释一下的话……

it's always the bicep, isn't it?

总是二头肌，不是吗？

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Let's use it.

让我们使用它吧。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Let's use the calf or the bicep.

让我们使用小腿或二头肌。

If you can flex your bicep to the point where it hurts a little bit, it almost feels like a cramp, or you can flex your calf to the point where it really cramps up a little bit, almost feels like it's knotting up.

如果你可以弯曲你的二头肌到有点痛的程度，那几乎感觉就像抽筋，或者你可以弯曲你的小腿到真的有点抽筋的程度，几乎感觉就像打结一样。

That's a pretty good indication that you're going to be able to stimulate that muscle well under load if you're doing the movement properly.

这是一个很好的迹象，表明如果你正确地进行运动，你将能够在负载下很好地刺激肌肉。

And that's the feeling to actually aim for each repetition, maybe even throughout the repetition.

这就是每次重复、甚至整个重复过程中真正瞄准的感觉。

For me, this completely transformed my results.

对我来说，这完全改变了我的结果。

And this was maybe five, six years ago that I first heard this from you.

我第一次从你那里听到这件事大概是五六年前的事了。

Body parts that, for me, lagged behind that, I thought maybe genetically weren't going to work for me, immediately just started growing.

对我来说，落后的身体部位，我认为也许基因上不适合我，但立即开始生长。

And I was getting stronger and stronger, and I thought, this is really something.

我变得越来越坚强，我想，这真的很了不起。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So much so that I've dedicated a portion of my research, in collaboration with another group, to try and understand what's happening in these upper motor neurons in the brain that can engage the muscles even more.

以至于我与另一个小组合作，投入了一部分研究，试图了解大脑中这些上运动神经元中发生的情况，这些神经元可以更多地调动肌肉。

And that it's not just about progressive overload or putting a pump into the muscle, that this mind-muscle connection is a real thing when it comes to predicting results and that you can get better at it.

这不仅仅是渐进式超负荷或给肌肉注入泵，在预测结果时，这种思维与肌肉的联系是真实存在的，而且你可以做得更好。

So forgive me if we're paraphrasing your incredible content around this.

因此，如果我们要围绕此解释您令人难以置信的内容，请原谅我。

It made a tremendous difference for me and a number of other people that I've passed that along to.

这对我和我所传递给的其他许多人来说产生了巨大的影响。

First of all, how did you arrive at that?

首先，你是如何得出这个结论的？

Because we hear about the mind-muscle connection, but I really heard it first from you.

因为我们听说过精神与肌肉的联系，但我确实是最先从你那里听到的。

How did you arrive at this cramp test?

您是如何进行抽筋测试的？

The Cavaliere test, as I'll call it.

我称之为骑士测试。

It's always weird when people name things after themselves in science, but other scientists can name things.

当人们在科学中以自己的名字命名事物时，总是很奇怪，但其他科学家可以命名事物。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

I'll take it.

我会接受的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So there is now officially — the Cavaliere test is whether or not you can cramp the muscle in the absence of load.

所以现在正式的——骑士测试是你是否可以在没有负荷的情况下抽筋肌肉。

Just flexing it to the point where it hurts a little bit, that would be a good indication that you could grow that muscle well.

只要将它弯曲到有点痛的程度，这就是一个很好的迹象，表明你可以很好地生长肌肉。

How did you come up with this?

你是怎么想到这个的？

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Honestly, it's something that made sense to me because during my workouts, even as a young kid just starting out, I always wanted to know, what is it working?

老实说，这对我来说很有意义，因为在我的锻炼过程中，即使作为一个刚开始锻炼的小孩子，我总是想知道，它有什么作用？

A lot of people ask that question, more so than you'd think.

很多人问这个问题，比你想象的还要多。

"What is this supposed to work?" And I don't know if you've ever noticed, but when people ask that question, if they're being trained by a trainer, and the trainer's saying, "Well just do this, do this exercise," and they'll show you how to do it.

“这有什么作用？”我不知道你是否注意到，当人们问这个问题时，如果他们正在接受培训师的培训，培训师会说：“好吧，就这样做，做这个练习”，他们会告诉你如何去做。

But then they'll say, "But what is it supposed to work?

但随后他们会说：“但是它应该怎样工作呢？

Where am I supposed to feel this?" People, they just inherently ask that question.

我应该在哪里感受到这种感觉？”人们只是本能地问这个问题。

A lot of people will.

很多人都会。

I was one of those that did that and I asked that question.

我是这样做的人之一，我问了这个问题。

Not because I knew what I was doing, but just because I wanted to know what was supposed to be doing the work.

不是因为我知道自己在做什么，而是因为我想知道应该做什么。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Once you do that and you start to seek that out and say, "Okay, well the bicep is what's supposed to be doing the work," then I want to make sure that bicep is doing the work.

一旦你做到了这一点，你开始寻找并说，“好吧，二头肌应该做这个工作，”然后我想确保二头肌正在做这个工作。

So then I would tweak the movement to make it do more work or feel more uncomfortable or get a stronger contraction, knowing if that's supposed to do the job.

然后我会调整运动，让它做更多的工作，或者感觉更不舒服，或者得到更强的收缩，知道这是否应该完成工作。

It wasn't until PT school that I'm learning, "Oh, well, flexion of the elbow is the brachialis and the bias, and the bias is responsible for supination." I learned other components of it, but all I wanted to know was, to bring my arm up in a curl, what is supposed to do the job?

直到上物理治疗学校我才了解到，“哦，好吧，肘部的弯曲是肱肌和偏斜，而偏斜是造成旋后的原因。”我学习了它的其他组成部分，但我想知道的是，将我的手臂卷起来，应该做什么？

So I would seek out ways to make that happen better.

所以我会寻找方法让这一切变得更好。

And when I was able to do that, I could feel the stronger contraction.

当我能够做到这一点时，我能感觉到更强烈的收缩。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

And I was no visionary.

我也没有什么远见。

I just felt like I knew that that was going to be better for me if the muscle I was trying to grow was being stressed more effectively.

我只是觉得我知道如果我想要增长的肌肉能够更有效地受到压力，那对我来说会更好。

So when I was attempting to do this across different exercises, I would notice that what I could do potentially on a curl where my arm is up, were you asking me to flex my bicep, that position, I couldn't do if I was doing a concentration curl.

因此，当我尝试在不同的练习中进行此操作时，我会注意到，在手臂向上的弯举中我可以做的事情是，如果你要求我弯曲我的二头肌，那么如果我做集中弯举，我就无法做到这一点。

Or I couldn't carry over to a cable curl and that shouldn't really change.

或者我无法继续进行绳索弯举，这应该不会真正改变。

Because the function is still largely the same.

因为功能还是大体相同的。

There's still elbow flexion, there's still supination.

仍然有肘部弯曲，仍然有旋后。

Why am I not able to do it there?

为什么我在那里做不到？

And that's when it clued into me that your mind-muscle connection, not just your mind with one muscle, but on every exercise, matters.

就在那时，我意识到你的思想与肌肉的联系，不仅仅是你的思想与一块肌肉的联系，而是在每一次锻炼中，都很重要。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

And it varies from exercise to exercise.

而且它因运动而异。

And even if you don't gain muscle size from doing that, although I think it's very hard not to, especially if you're not used to doing that.

即使你没有通过这样做来增加肌肉尺寸，尽管我认为很难不这样做，特别是如果你不习惯这样做的话。

There's a term I like to call muscularity, which is a difference.

我喜欢用一个术语来称呼肌肉发达，这是一种差异。

It's the level of resting tone in the muscle.

它是肌肉的静息张力水平。

That improves dramatically.

这显着改善。

If you can learn how to start to engage that muscle better, the resting tone of that muscle is harder.

如果您能够学习如何开始更好地调动该肌肉，那么该肌肉的静息状态就会变得更加困难。

It's more at attention, it's just more alive.

它更受关注，也更有活力。

And it's all driven from being able to connect better neurologically with the muscle that you're trying to train.

这一切都是为了能够在神经学上更好地连接你想要训练的肌肉。

I've talked about it a lot: inefficiency is really what you're trying to seek in movements when you're trying to create hypertrophy.

我已经谈过很多次了：当你试图创造肌肉肥大时，低效率确实是你在动作中寻求的目标。

When strength is your goal, efficiency of the movement is what you're looking for.

当力量是您的目标时，您就会寻求运动的效率。

You're looking to have muscles tie together and work well efficiently — the chest, the shoulders, the triceps — to get a bar off of your chest during a bench press.

您需要让肌肉（胸部、肩膀、三头肌）紧密相连并有效工作，以便在卧推过程中将杠铃从胸部拉开。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

You're not looking to make it a very inefficient leverage for your chest to try to grow your chest in a bench press.

你不会想让它成为你胸部的一个非常低效的杠杆来试图通过卧推来增大你的胸部。

You're trying to let the whole package come together for a greater output.

你试图让整个包组合在一起以获得更大的输出。

But when you're trying to go and create muscle hypertrophy, or even this muscularity that I talk about, you need to seek ways to make it feel more uncomfortable.

但是，当你试图创造肌肉肥大，甚至是我所说的肌肉发达时，你需要寻找方法让它感觉更不舒服。

If you don't feel the discomfort, then you're doing something wrong.

如果你没有感觉到不适，那么你就做错了。

And I struggle to this day on certain muscle groups to still do that.

直到今天，我仍然在某些肌肉群上努力做到这一点。

Even knowing what I'm trying to work and knowing what the goal of everything I'm preaching here, it's very difficult for some muscles and for certain people to do this on certain muscles.

即使知道我正在努力做什么，也知道我在这里宣讲的一切目标是什么，对于某些肌肉和某些人来说，在某些肌肉上做到这一点是非常困难的。

But as you mentioned, practice does help.

但正如你提到的，练习确实有帮助。

And the more you become consistent and deliberate with what you're trying to do, the more of a result you actually get.

你越是坚持和深思熟虑地去做你想做的事情，你实际得到的结果就越多。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's couple of really important points I'd like to delve into further.

我想进一步深入探讨几个非常重要的点。

First of all, my hunch was always that the muscle groups that grew most easily and that I could contract hardest without any ...

首先，我的预感始终是最容易生长的肌肉群，并且我可以在没有任何...的情况下收缩最困难的肌肉群。

the first time I did the Cavaliere test, got 10 out 10.

我第一次做Cavaliere测试时，得到了10分中的10分。

If we give it a 10-out-of-10 scale, I could cinch, isolate those muscles, cinch them, grow them easily.

如果我们给它一个十分之十的评分，我可以收紧、隔离这些肌肉，收紧它们，轻松地生长它们。

There's certain body parts, I don't want to say which ones because it doesn't really matter, that I always felt like if I just did push-ups, they would grow.

身体的某些部位，我不想说是哪些，因为这并不重要，我总觉得如果我做俯卧撑，它们就会长大。

And these muscles are far away from any of the muscles that are supposed to be involved in push-ups.

而且这些肌肉距离任何应该参与俯卧撑的肌肉都很远。

Even though I like to think I'm doing push-ups correctly, you'll tell me if I'm not.

尽管我喜欢认为自己做的俯卧撑是正确的，但你会告诉我是否正确。

But some of that I think is genetic.

但我认为其中一些是遗传的。

And some of that has to do with the sports that I played when I was younger.

其中一些与我年轻时参加的运动有关。

So I swam, I played soccer, I skateboarded, and then later I boxed.

所以我游泳、踢足球、滑板，后来又打拳击。

And so the muscles involved in those sports were always very easy to engage later when I went into the gym.

因此，当我后来去健身房时，参与这些运动的肌肉总是很容易参与。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So I guess perhaps a call to parents, having kids do a lot of dynamic-

所以我想也许是给父母打电话，让孩子们做很多动态的事情——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

that perhaps a call to parents, having kids do a lot of dynamic activity.

这也许是对父母的呼吁，让孩子们做很多动态的活动。

Seems like it might be a good idea.

看起来这可能是个好主意。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The other thing is this issue of muscularity.

另一件事是肌肉发达的问题。

I am so glad you brought that up.

我很高兴你提出这个问题。

There are, I have to imagine, a large number of listeners who don't want to get bigger.

我不得不想象，有很多听众不想扩大规模。

They don't want to take up a larger clothing size.

他们不想穿更大的衣服。

They don't want to take up more space.

他们不想占用更多空间。

In fact, some of them would like to take up less space, but they want that quality that you're describing, which is that ...

事实上，他们中的一些人希望占用更少的空间，但他们想要你所描述的那种质量，那就是......

oftentimes you hear it more in the ...

通常你会在……中听到更多。

here I'm stereotyping a bit, but with kindness, you hear from women who are in weight training.

在这里，我有点刻板印象，但出于善意，你会听到正在进行举重训练的女性的声音。

They say, "I don't want to get big." Often.

他们说：“我不想变大。”经常。

Sometimes, they do.

有时，他们会这样做。

But most women that I've helped weight train would talk about weight training, say, "I don't want to get bigger.

但我帮助过的大多数女性重量训练都会谈论重量训练，说：“我不想变得更大。

I want to get tone." And I think what they're referring to is this quality of muscularity.

我想要得到语气。”我认为他们指的是这种肌肉品质。

PART 1 OF 5 ENDS Jeff Cavaliere:

第 1 部分（共 5 部分）结束 Jeff Cavaliere：

Hundred percent.

百分之百。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This idea that at resting or at close to rest, or anytime someone reaches out and grabs a glass, that the muscles almost look like they're twitching underneath the skin, and yet it's not Saran-wrapped skin, anatomy chart-type skin.

这种想法是，在休息或接近休息时，或任何时候有人伸手抓起一个玻璃杯时，肌肉看起来几乎就像在皮肤下抽搐，但它不是用保鲜膜包裹的皮肤，解剖图类型的皮肤。

This thing of muscularity or resting tone has a physiological basis.

肌肉发达或静息张力这个东西是有生理基础的。

I think it's how readily the nerves are communicating with the muscles.

我认为这是神经与肌肉沟通的容易程度。

And you're saying that by learning to engage the muscles more actively, the resting tone or muscularity can improve.

你是说，通过学习更积极地调动肌肉，可以改善静息张力或肌肉强度。

Have you seen that both in men and women?

你在男性和女性身上都看到过这种情况吗？

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Yeah.

是的。

Oh, yeah.

哦，是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And do you think this is something that takes upkeep, maintenance?

你认为这是需要维护、维护的东西吗？

Or that once you develop that in a muscle, you can just let it coast?

或者一旦你的肌肉得到了发展，你就可以让它自然而然地发展？

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

I think like everything, it requires upkeep.

我认为就像所有事情一样，它需要维护。

Use it or lose it, I do believe firmly.

用进废退，我坚信。

But I think that the development of the connection is going to be harder than the maintenance of the connection.

但我认为，建立联系比维持联系更困难。

As I said, I still struggle to this day for myself with unnamed muscle groups also.

正如我所说，直到今天我仍然在为自己的无名肌肉群而奋斗。

But there's just certain areas that are harder for your brain, for whatever reason, to just develop that connection at that type of level to create that extra strong contraction.

但无论出于何种原因，某些区域对你的大脑来说更难在那种水平上发展这种连接以产生额外的强烈收缩。

But I think that with proper dedication and focus, and I'll go right out and say, calves is one of the areas that I don't necessarily have a great connection with.

但我认为，只要有适当的奉献和专注，我就会直接说，小腿是我不一定有很大联系的领域之一。

And I also obviously must not care so much because I don't put in the time and effort to create that connection as I could.

显然我也不能太在意，因为我没有投入时间和精力来尽可能地建立这种联系。

So I think what might happen is yeah, there could be a struggle there, but then with struggle comes disinterest because you're like, "Well, screw it.

所以我认为可能发生的情况是，那里可能会有一场斗争，但随着斗争而来的是不感兴趣，因为你会说，“好吧，管它呢。

I'm a calf-not and I'm not going to do anything about it."

我不是一头小牛，我不会对此采取任何行动。”

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

So I think if you put the required effort in and the time and repetitions, that you will develop that.

所以我认为，如果你付出必要的努力、时间和重复，你就会发展这一点。

And once you do develop it, it's going to stick around a lot longer than it would had you not invested any time into it at all, not requiring as much of that.

一旦你开发了它，它会比你根本没有投入任何时间的情况下坚持得更久，不需要那么多时间。

But I don't know.

但我不知道。

You mentioned, now when you train, it's like this is just part of how you train now.

你提到，现在当你训练时，这就像你现在训练的一部分。

You're going hard.

你要努力了

You're trying to really forcibly contract.

你正试图真正强行签约。

You're not just moving the weight, I say, from point A to point B, but you're trying to contract the weight through that range.

我说，你不仅仅是将重量从 A 点移动到 B 点，而是试图在该范围内收缩重量。

That is a mindset that I try to put into everything I'm doing, unless of course I'm focused on a strength exercise, where I'm just trying to lift a greater amount and use all the muscles together.

我试图将这种心态融入到我所做的每一件事中，当然，除非我专注于力量练习，我只是想举起更大的重量并一起使用所有肌肉。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

But when the goal is inefficiency for hypertrophy, I am really trying to create that contraction.

但当目标是低效增肌时，我真的在努力创造收缩。

And it's just part of my training.

这只是我训练的一部分。

So I guess that for consistency's sake, as long as I'm training, it's happening.

所以我想，为了保持一致性，只要我在训练，这种情况就会发生。

If I get away from training, that's not happening at all.

如果我放弃训练，那根本就不会发生。

But even there, I probably, another embarrassing admission, probably will mindfully do it throughout the day even with no weight in my hand in certain muscle groups.

但即便如此，我可能会再次尴尬地承认，即使我手中的某些肌肉群没有重量，我也可能会全天小心地这样做。

Whether it be my abs or my arm or my shoulders or something, I'm doing something just to engage the muscles.

无论是我的腹肌、手臂、肩膀还是其他什么，我所做的只是为了锻炼肌肉。

And I do think that some of that inane practice actually helps by the time you go back into the gym.

我确实认为，当你回到健身房时，一些愚蠢的练习实际上会有所帮助。

You just keep that connection going.

你只要保持这种联系就可以了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, it certainly obeys all the rules of neuroplasticity.

嗯，它当然遵守神经可塑性的所有规则。

The "fire together, wire together" mantra, which are the words of my colleague Carla Shatz, hold true for all aspects of neural function, including nerve to muscle.

我的同事卡拉·沙茨（Carla Shatz）说过的“一起火，一起接线”的口号适用于神经功能的各个方面，包括神经到肌肉。

So these flexing throughout the day or the deliberate isolation of contracting a muscle throughout the day is, without question, engaging neuroplasticity.

因此，毫无疑问，全天的弯曲或全天收缩肌肉的刻意隔离都具有神经可塑性。

And if you were to do fewer of those repetitions, you're going to get less engagement of the nerve-to-muscle connection.

如果你减少这些重复次数，你的神经与肌肉连接的参与就会减少。

I can say this with a smile and with confidence because one of the first things all neuroscience students learn is about the neuromuscular junction, because it's a really simple example of where the more times the nerve fires and gets the muscle to contract, the stronger that connection get, receptors are brought there, et cetera, et cetera.

我可以带着微笑和自信地说出这一点，因为所有神经科学学生首先学习的事情之一就是神经肌肉接头，因为这是一个非常简单的例子，神经放电并让肌肉收缩的次数越多，连接就越强，受体就会被带到那里，等等，等等。

There's a whole bunch of mechanisms for the topic of another podcast, but basically that practice throughout the day makes total sense and it works.

另一个播客的主题有一大堆机制，但基本上，整天的练习是完全有意义的，而且很有效。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

And believe me, there's no science behind that in terms of the application of it.

相信我，就其应用而言，这背后没有科学依据。

You do it when ...

你这样做的时候...

You catch yourself doing it from time to time, but it is definitely something that's easily done discreetly and you wind up doing it.

你有时会发现自己这样做，但这绝对是一件很容易谨慎完成的事情，而且你最终会这样做。

Actually, I think in a recent video when I did talk about growing your arms by just improving the connection, not that that connection itself is applying any load or resistance that's significant to create overload for growth, but it's the development of that connection that I then take back with me into the gym at a more effective level that takes every exercise I do there and makes it more effective.

事实上，我想在最近的一个视频中，当我确实谈到通过改善连接来增长手臂时，并不是说连接本身施加了任何对生长产生超负荷的重要负荷或阻力，而是这种连接的发展，然后我以更有效的水平带回健身房，这使得我在那里所做的每一次锻炼都变得更加有效。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd say sharpening the blade, so to speak.

可以这么说，我想说的是磨利刀片。

It certainly obeys the laws of nerve-to-muscle physiology.

它当然遵守神经到肌肉的生理学定律。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I want to just touch on a couple of things.

我想谈几件事。

If the goal is to challenge muscles and one is dividing their body into, let's say, a three- or four-day-a-week split or so, or maybe up to six, how do you know when a muscle is ready to be challenged again?

如果目标是挑战肌肉，并且将身体分为每周三到四天左右，或者最多六天，那么您如何知道肌肉何时准备好再次接受挑战？

I've heard, "Okay, every 48 hours protein synthesis increases, and then we'll get into this, and then it drops off." But frankly, if I train my legs hard, I can get stronger from workout to workout, or at least better, in some way, workout to workout, leg workout to leg workout, training them once every five to eight days.

我听说过，“好吧，每 48 小时蛋白质合成就会增加，然后我们就会进入这个阶段，然后它就会下降。”但坦率地说，如果我努力训练我的腿部，我可以通过一次又一次的锻炼变得更强壮，或者至少在某种程度上更好，一次又一次的锻炼，一次又一次的腿部锻炼，每五到八天训练一次。

If I train them more often, I get worse.

如果我更频繁地训练他们，我会变得更糟。

So whatever that 48-hour-to-72-hour thing is, somehow my legs don't obey that.

所以不管 48 小时到 72 小时是什么，不知何故我的腿不服从这个规定。

Or maybe something else is wrong with me, but I'm sure there are many things else wrong with me.

也许我还有其他问题，但我确信我还有很多其他问题。

But how do you assess recovery at the local level?

但您如何评估地方层面的复苏？

Meaning at the level of the muscles.

意思是肌肉层面的。

So we'll talk about soreness and getting better, stronger, more repetitions, et cetera.

因此，我们将讨论酸痛以及变得更好、更强、更多重复等等。

And then the systemic level, the level of the nervous system.

然后是全身层面，神经系统层面。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I'd love for you to tell us about the tool that, again, I learned from you, which is actually using a physical scale, because it turns out this is that, and we'll let you tell what the tool is, but that tool is also actively being used for assessing cognitive decline and cognitive maintenance and cognitive function in people with Alzheimer's and dementia.

我希望你能告诉我们有关我从你那里学到的工具，它实际上是使用物理量表，因为事实证明是这样的，我们会让你告诉你这个工具是什么，但该工具也被积极用于评估阿尔茨海默氏症和痴呆症患者的认知衰退、认知维持和认知功能。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Sure, makes total sense.

当然，完全有道理。

Makes total sense.

完全有道理。

All right.

好的。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Regarding the first part of the question, how would you dictate when a muscle's recovered?

关于问题的第一部分，您如何决定肌肉何时恢复？

I do think that what you're experiencing is totally real, that different muscles recover at different rates.

我确实认为你所经历的一切是完全真实的，不同的肌肉以不同的速度恢复。

And I've always been so fascinated by this concept.

我一直对这个概念非常着迷。

I've talked about it internally with my team.

我已经和我的团队内部讨论过这个问题。

But I feel like what we really need, the holy grail to training, is going to be when we're able to crack the code, on an individual basis, when a muscle is recovered, and that is going to dictate its training schedule.

但我觉得我们真正需要的，训练的圣杯，将是当我们能够在个人基础上破解密码时，当肌肉恢复时，这将决定其训练计划。

And the fact that you might have a bicep that could be trained via a pulling workout, a regular bicep-dedicated workout ...

事实上，你的二头肌可能可以通过拉力训练、常规的二头肌专用训练来训练......

Forget the split at the moment.

暂时忘记分裂。

You might have a bicep that's able to be trained that can be trained again the next day, and then the next day, and then maybe you need a day off after that.

你的二头肌可能可以接受训练，第二天可以再次训练，然后第二天，然后也许你需要休息一天。

And that can vary from person to person, for sure.

当然，这可能因人而异。

And it can vary from muscle to muscle in that person over the course of time.

随着时间的推移，该人的肌肉之间的差异可能会有所不同。

As you mentioned, because the systemic recovery is going to impact all those muscles anyway.

正如您提到的，因为无论如何，全身恢复都会影响所有这些肌肉。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

But let's say you're systemically recovering, every muscle itself is going to have a recovery rate.

但假设你正在全身恢复，每块肌肉本身都会有恢复率。

And I think what's fascinating is that when you talked about before, we like to train this week or we have the way our mind looks at training, well, if that was the case with the biceps, that bicep is a slave to the rest of your training split.

我认为有趣的是，当你之前谈到时，我们喜欢在本周进行训练，或者我们有自己的思维方式看待训练，好吧，如果二头肌就是这种情况，那么二头肌就是你其余训练的奴隶。

Where it's like, why does it have to be also at the end of every eighth day or whatever when it might respond better to something much more frequently, and your legs are also being thrown into that mix.

在哪里，为什么它也必须在每八天结束时或其他什么时候，它可能对更频繁的事情反应更好，而且你的腿也被投入到这种混合中。

That's a Mike Mentzer concept where he's training one set and be done for 14 days.

这是 Mike Mentzer 的理念，他训练一组并完成 14 天。

There's such variability between muscle groups, and you're linking them all together.

肌肉群之间存在很大的差异，而你将它们连接在一起。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

I think that coming back and using muscle soreness as a guideline for that is one of the only tools we have in terms of the local level.

我认为回来并使用肌肉酸痛作为指导是我们在当地层面拥有的唯一工具之一。

We don't really have ...

我们实在没有...

Being able to measure, let's say, CPK levels inside of a muscle would be amazing at a local level to see how recovered that muscle is.

比方说，能够在局部水平测量肌肉内部的 CPK 水平，以了解肌肉的恢复情况，这将是令人惊奇的。

But that becomes fairly invasive.

但这变得相当具有侵入性。

At least to my knowledge, it becomes fairly invasive.

至少据我所知，它变得相当具有侵入性。

So what are our tools?

那么我们的工具是什么？

I think that at the basic level, that's the one that most people can relate to and easily identify and then use that as a guideline.

我认为，在基本层面上，这是大多数人都能理解并轻松识别的，然后将其用作指导方针。

And if you're training when you're really sore, it's probably not a great idea.

如果你在非常酸痛的情况下进行训练，这可能不是一个好主意。

And it's probably a good indication that that muscle's not recovered.

这可能是肌肉尚未恢复的一个很好的迹象。

But at least hearing what you and I are saying here might be a comfort to the person to say, "Yeah, it is possible that it's not recovered." Just because 48 hours is the recommendation and just because research points to muscle protein synthesis needing a restimulation, well, maybe not.

但至少听到你和我在这里所说的话可能会让这个人感到安慰，因为他会说：“是的，它可能还没有恢复。”仅仅因为 48 小时是建议，并且仅仅因为研究表明肌肉蛋白质合成需要重新刺激，那么，也许不需要。

Maybe you're not necessarily there yet.

也许你还不一定在那儿。

And for that muscle, you're not there yet.

对于那块肌肉，你还没有达到。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

So it's all really interesting stuff.

所以这都是非常有趣的事情。

But as far as the systemic recovery, I think there's a lot of ways.

但就系统性复苏而言，我认为有很多方法。

People talk about resting heart rate measured in the morning, all different kinds of core temperature and things like that that might become altered in a state of nonrecovery.

人们谈论早上测量的静息心率、各种不同类型的核心温度以及类似的东西，这些东西在非恢复状态下可能会发生变化。

But grip strength is very, very much tied to performance and recovery.

但握力与表现和恢复密切相关。

And when I was at the Mets, we used to actually take grip strength measurements as a baseline in spring training all the time.

当我在大都会队时，我们实际上一直将握力测量作为春季训练的基线。

Now, obviously as a baseball player, you're gripping a bat.

现在，显然作为一名棒球运动员，你正在握着球棒。

You're a pitcher, you're gripping a ball.

你是一名投手，你正在抓球。

Having good grip strength is important.

拥有良好的握力很重要。

So if you notice somebody had a very weak grip, it's just a good focal point of a specialized training component for the program.

因此，如果您发现某人的握力非常弱，那么这只是该计划的专门训练部分的一个很好的焦点。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You do this every day with those guys?

你每天都和那些家伙一起这样做吗？

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

No. In spring training, we'd do a baseline entry-level measurement, and then we would measure it throughout the season, maybe once every two weeks or three weeks.

不会。在春季训练中，我们会进行基线入门级测量，然后我们会在整个赛季中进行测量，也许每两周或三周一次。

And the idea there was to manage the recovery, measure the recovery.

其想法是管理复苏、衡量复苏。

But I just gave it away.

但我刚刚把它放弃了。

To determine overall recovery, your grip strength is pretty highly correlated.

为了确定整体恢复情况，你的握力是高度相关的。

So we have found that with one of those scales, those old-fashioned bathroom scales at Bed Bath & Beyond, or whatever, you can get, which by the way, almost impossible.

所以我们发现，只要使用其中一种秤，Bed Bath & Beyond 的老式浴室秤，或者其他什么地方，你就可以获得，顺便说一句，这几乎是不可能的。

I believe Jesse and I were searching for the last scale to put in that video, and we almost couldn't find one because everything is digital and everything ...

我相信杰西和我正在寻找放入该视频的最后一个秤，我们几乎找不到一个，因为一切都是数字化的，一切......

It's like this, I'm looking at the old-fashioned dial controls.

是这样的，我在看老式的拨盘控件。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's like old Macintosh computers, there's a huge market for them.

就像老式的麦金塔电脑一样，它们有一个巨大的市场。

And old phones.

还有旧手机。

Kids, keep your phones now.

孩子们，请保管好你们的手机。

In 30 years, the lame phone now will be worth a lot of money.

30年后，现在的蹩脚手机将值很多钱。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Really worth a lot.

真的值很多钱。

I wound up finding one, and it's a great tool for just squeezing the scale with your hands and seeing what type of output you could get.

我最终找到了一个，它是一个很好的工具，只需用手挤压秤，看看可以获得什么类型的输出。

And I think we all can relate to this when you just visualize, imagine the last time you were sick ...

我想，当你想象、想象一下你上次生病时的情景时，我们都能体会到这一点……

Or just try this.

或者试试这个。

The next time you wake up in the morning, when you first wake up in the morning, you're still groggy.

下次你早上醒来的时候，当你早上第一次醒来的时候，你仍然是昏昏沉沉的。

Try to squeeze your hand.

尝试挤压你的手。

Try to make a fist as hard as you can.

尽量用力握拳。

You're going to sit there angry at your fist because it won't contract as hard as you know it can.

你会坐在那里对你的拳头感到愤怒，因为它不会像你知道的那样收缩得那么厉害。

You don't have the ability to just create the output.

您没有能力只创建输出。

And that is because in that state, you're still sleepy.

那是因为在那种状态下，你仍然很困。

You're still fatigued.

你还是很累。

You're not even awake at the whole level at this point.

此时你甚至还没有完全清醒。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Well, that is still an actual phenomenon that happens, that a lack of recovery or lack of wakefulness or whatever you want to say, is going to lead to a decreased output there.

嗯，这仍然是一个实际发生的现象，缺乏恢复或缺乏清醒或任何你想说的，都会导致那里的输出减少。

So when you start to measure that on a daily basis, you can get a pretty good sense of where you're at.

因此，当您开始每天进行测量时，您可以很好地了解自己所处的位置。

And I think when people start to see a drop off of 10% or so or even greater of their grip output, you really should skip the gym that day, because I don't think there's much you're going to do there that's going to be that beneficial.

我认为，当人们开始看到握力输出下降 10% 左右甚至更多时，你真的应该那天不去健身房，因为我认为你在那里做的事情不会那么有益。

Even if it is the day to train legs or whatever day it is.

即使是训练腿部的日子或任何一天。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I love this tool.

我喜欢这个工具。

It's simple.

这很简单。

It's low cost, if you can find such a scale.

如果你能找到这样的秤，成本很低。

I guess you could also find one of those grippers that, and you can do this in a very nonquantitative way, but better would be a scale where you could actually measure how hard you can squeeze this thing at a given time of day.

我想你也可以找到一个这样的夹具，你可以以一种非常非定量的方式做到这一点，但最好是一个秤，你可以实际测量在一天中的给定时间挤压这个东西的力度。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It draws to mind just a little neuroscience factoid: In the world of circadian neurobiology, one of the consistent findings is that in the middle of your nighttime, they wake people up and they'll say, "Do this test." In the laboratory, they use a different apparatus, but it's essentially the same thing.

这让我想起了一个神经科学的小轶事：在昼夜节律神经生物学领域，一致的发现之一是，在半夜，他们叫醒人们，他们会说，“做这个测试。”在实验室中，他们使用不同的设备，但本质上是相同的。

And in the middle of the night, grip strength is very, very low.

而且在半夜，握力非常非常低。

And at midmorning, grip strength is high.

上午十点左右，握力很高。

And as the body temperature goes up into the afternoon, grip strength goes higher and higher and higher, and then it drops off.

随着下午体温的升高，握力会越来越高，然后就会下降。

There's this circadian rhythm in grip temperature.

握力温度存在昼夜节律。

So you probably want to do this at more or less the same time each day if you're going to use it.

因此，如果您要使用它，您可能希望每天或多或少在同一时间执行此操作。

But I think it's brilliant in its simplicity and its directness to these upper motor neurons, because that's really what it's assessing, your ability.

但我认为它的出色之处在于它的简单性和对这些上运动神经元的直接性，因为这确实是它评估的内容，即你的能力。

Again, it's about the ability to contract the muscles hard.

再说一次，这与用力收缩肌肉的能力有关。

If you can't do that, you're not going to get an effective workout.

如果你做不到这一点，你就无法获得有效的锻炼。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

And they also, there certainly are more sophisticated tools too.

当然，他们也有更复杂的工具。

As a PT, we have a hand-grip dynamometer.

作为 PT，我们有一个手持式测力计。

We can measure one side at a time too.

我们也可以一次测量一侧。

I'm getting a little bit blinded by the fact that both hands are squeezing into that scale, and I don't get really a left-right comparison.

我对双手都挤压到这个比例的事实感到有点盲目，而且我没有真正得到左右比较。

But even at that level, that could give you a little bit more detail.

但即使在那个级别，这也可以为您提供更多细节。

But that comes with a cost.

但这是有代价的。

Those are pretty expensive devices.

这些都是相当昂贵的设备。

But listen, if you were an athlete, the 200, 300 bucks it cost to have one of those would be well worth the added investment.

但是听着，如果您是一名运动员，那么花 200、300 美元购买其中一件就非常值得额外投资。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I'm sure some of our listeners will want one too, because there are a lot of tech geeks out there.

我确信我们的一些听众也会想要一个，因为那里有很多技术极客。

Not tech industry geeks, but people who like tech gear.

不是科技行业的极客，而是喜欢科技装备的人。

What's it called again?

又叫什么？

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

It's a hand grip dynamometer.

这是一个手持式测力计。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Hand grip dynamometer, said by Jeff with a great East Coast accent and by me in a terrible, botched-it West Coast version.

手握式测力计，杰夫用浓重的东海岸口音说，而我用糟糕的、糟糕的西海岸口音说。

Thank you.

谢谢。

We'll put that in the show notes also.

我们也会把它放在演出笔记中。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No, I think recovery is key.

不，我认为恢复是关键。

We always hear about sleep.

我们总是听说睡眠。

You grow when you sleep.

当你睡觉的时候你就会成长。

And incidentally, your brain ...

顺便说一句，你的大脑...

you stimulate learning when you're awake, obviously.

显然，当你醒着的时候，你会刺激学习。

But the reordering of neural connections happens in sleep.

但神经连接的重新排序发生在睡眠中。

This is why sleep is the way to get smarter, provided you're also doing the learning part.

这就是为什么睡眠是变得更聪明的方法，前提是你也在做学习部分。

Sleep's the way to get stronger, provided you're also doing the training part.

睡眠是变得更强壮的方法，前提是你还进行训练部分。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You've had some really ...

你确实经历过一些...

You've put out interesting content over the years in terms of even sleep position.

多年来，您在均匀睡眠姿势方面发布了有趣的内容。

One of the major changes that I made to my sleep behavior is to not have the sheets tucked in at the end of the day.

我对睡眠行为做出的重大改变之一就是在一天结束时不再把床单塞好。

And I'll tell you, this had a profound impact on several things.

我会告诉你，这对几件事产生了深远的影响。

First of all, my feet have always been the bane of my existence.

首先，我的脚一直是我存在的祸根。

Broke them a bunch skateboarding, and I noticed when I'd run, I'd get shin splints.

滑板把他们弄坏了，我注意到当我跑步时，我会得到胫骨夹板。

And then I started to notice that my feet ...

然后我开始注意到我的脚...

You're the PT, they were floppy, and as if I was pointing my toes slightly all the time at rest.

你是 PT，他们很松软，就好像我在休息时一直轻轻地指向我的脚趾。

And I realized that, based on listening to you previously, that my sheets were wrapped tight.

我意识到，根据之前听你说的，我的床单裹得很紧。

Not hotel tight, one other thing in the hotels.

酒店不紧张，这是酒店的另一件事。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

You can't even get your feet in.

你连脚都插不进去。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I started releasing the sheets at the end of the bed.

我开始松开床尾的床单。

And I also started doing some tibialis work, front of shins work, essentially.

我还开始做一些胫骨肌的训练，本质上是小腿前部的训练。

Changed everything.

改变了一切。

My back pain from running.

我跑步后背痛。

My shin splints disappeared.

我的胫骨夹板消失了。

My posture improved.

我的姿势有所改善。

Although, my audience will tell me that it still needs improvement.

尽管如此，我的听众会告诉我它仍然需要改进。

There are always five or 10 people that want-

总是有五到十个人想要——

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Just maybe sit up straight.

也许只是坐直。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And I've actually had chairs sent to our mailing address.

我实际上已经将椅子发送到我们的邮寄地址。

Very nice chairs.

非常好的椅子。

So I'm trying there.

所以我正在那里尝试。

But this is fascinating, the position that one sleeps in.

但这是令人着迷的，一个人睡觉的姿势。

I fortunately have never had any shoulder issues, knock on wood, but maybe you could just talk to us a little bit about sleep and sleep position for sake of waking position and movement.

幸运的是，我从来没有任何肩膀问题，但也许你可以和我们谈谈睡眠和睡眠姿势，以便醒来时的姿势和运动。

Because this I think is a very unique and very powerful way to think about sleep.

因为我认为这是一种非常独特且非常有力的思考睡眠的方式。

This podcast has done a lot of episodes about keeping the room cool, getting sunlight in your eyes, et cetera, how to get into sleep.

这个播客做了很多关于保持房间凉爽、让阳光照射到眼睛等等的内容，以及如何入睡等内容。

But you've talked about physically what positions might be better to sleep in, so please, please enrich us.

但是你已经谈到了身体上什么姿势可能更好地睡觉，所以请丰富我们。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Yeah.

是的。

First of all, some people's opinions of that type of content is that you sleep in the position that's most comfortable so you ensure that you're sleeping.

首先，有些人对这类内容的看法是，你睡在最舒服的位置，这样你就可以确保自己在睡觉。

Great, I understand that — we all want to sleep.

太好了，我明白了——我们都想睡觉。

That's the goal when we put our head on the pillow, is to actually fall asleep and wake up in the morning and not know what the hell happened unless you had a dream.

当我们把头放在枕头上时，这就是我们的目标，就是真正入睡并在早上醒来时不知道到底发生了什么，除非你做了一个梦。

But beyond that, there are certainly physical components to sleep.

但除此之外，睡眠肯定还有身体因素。

That is why a lot of times, people will wake up and, say ...

这就是为什么很多时候，人们会醒来并说……

that you can incur pretty serious injuries in sleep.

你可能会在睡眠中遭受相当严重的伤害。

People will wake up and have a shoulder that did not bother them at all be humming the next day or even for weeks after because of the one sleep position they put themselves in a prolonged way.

人们醒来后，第二天甚至几周后，由于他们长时间保持一种睡眠姿势，肩膀根本不会打扰他们。

And they happen to have a deep sleep even through the discomfort.

即使在不舒服的情况下，他们也能进入深度睡眠。

That can do actually some damage.

这实际上会造成一些损害。

So it's understandable that the body can incur some strain and stress if you're sleeping in the wrong way.

因此，如果睡眠方式错误，身体可能会承受一些压力，这是可以理解的。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

One of the things I say right off the bat is sleeping on your stomach just doesn't really have many benefits.

我马上说的一件事是趴着睡并没有太多好处。

You're putting yourself into a position that is, depending upon the orientation of your mattress or how many pillows you're using, but you're basically putting yourselves into excessive extension of the lumbar spine, which for most people isn't very good.

你将自己置于一个位置，这取决于你的床垫的方向或你使用的枕头的数量，但你基本上让自己处于腰椎过度伸展的状态，这对大多数人来说并不是很好。

If you're a disc patient, I guess that might be helpful for relocating the disc.

如果您是椎间盘患者，我想这可能有助于重新定位椎间盘。

But for the most part, your hands are then usually not at your sides but they're up under your arms.

但在大多数情况下，您的手通常不会放在身体两侧，而是放在腋下。

So you've got them into internal rotation up over elevation in your head.

所以你已经让它们在你的头脑中向上旋转了。

It's just not a great position.

这不是一个很好的位置。

You also have to crank your neck from one side or the other in order to breathe, or you're face down straight into the pillow.

你还必须从一侧或另一侧转动脖子才能呼吸，或者你脸朝下直接埋在枕头里。

So I would skip that one.

所以我会跳过那个。

And there's some people that are total belly sleepers, and I would just say, listen, I don't think that is the most healthful, long-term way for you to sleep.

有些人完全是趴着睡，我只想说，听着，我不认为这对你来说是最健康、最长期的睡眠方式。

Try to adopt a different position.

尝试采取不同的立场。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Sleeping on your side oftentimes is also brought along with that.

经常侧睡也是随之而来的。

The legs, knees coming up towards the chest, prolonged hip flexion.

双腿、膝盖向胸部抬起，髋部长时间弯曲。

Listen, we're doing enough of that during the day.

听着，我们白天做的已经够多了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Just what we're doing right now.

这就是我们现在正在做的事情。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Right.

对。

We don't need to do another 10 hours or eight hours, or something, at night like that, and it just is reinforcing.

我们不需要在晚上再做 10 小时或 8 小时之类的事情，这只是在强化。

And as we said too, let's say you trained that day.

正如我们所说，假设您那天进行了训练。

You're just reinforcing muscle shortening overnight, where the body is healing and trying to create some changes in your body.

你只是在一夜之间加强肌肉缩短，身体正在愈合并试图在你的身体中产生一些变化。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

One of the reasons why I recommend stretching or static stretching prior to going to bed.

我建议睡前拉伸或静态拉伸的原因之一。

A lot of people don't really want to do it at that point because it could take 10 minutes, five, 10 minutes depending upon how many muscles you have to stretch.

很多人此时并不想这样做，因为这可能需要 10 分钟、5 分钟、10 分钟，具体取决于您需要伸展的肌肉数量。

But it's good to try to establish this longer length temporarily prior to going into a state where you're going to be not moving and recovering and creating new changes in the muscle.

但是，在进入不移动、恢复和肌肉产生新变化的状态之前，尝试暂时建立更长的长度是很好的。

So that, I don't say it doesn't rule out the side sleeper.

所以，我并不是说不排除侧睡。

The side sleeper could be very, very helpful for somebody that has apnea or other conditions.

对于患有呼吸暂停或其他疾病的人来说，侧睡可能非常非常有帮助。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

So again, it's not an all-or-nothing approach, but it just, it's something that you need to pay attention to.

再说一遍，这不是一种全有或全无的方法，但它只是您需要注意的事情。

When you are on your back like you were talking about, and your feet are wedged underneath tight sheets at the end of the bed, and most of us, unless we consciously are pulling them up, don't prefer our beds to have really loose sheets at the end of the bed.

当你像你所说的那样仰卧时，你的脚被夹在床尾紧绷的床单下面，我们大多数人，除非我们有意识地把它们拉起来，否则不喜欢我们的床在床尾有非常松的床单。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It's harder to make the bed in the morning.

早上整理床铺比较困难。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Right.

对。

So it's like you're going to want to have them tight.

所以你会想要把它们拉紧。

Well, I'm saying, as you experienced, you're going to have this prolonged plantar flexion that's going to likely lead to shorter calves over time, because you're lacking all that length for that long period of time that you could have if you just loosened up the sheets and allowed your feet to just hang out where they are.

好吧，我是说，正如你所经历的那样，你将会有这种长时间的跖屈，随着时间的推移，这可能会导致小腿变短，因为你在很长一段时间内缺乏足够的长度，而如果你只是松开床单并让你的脚悬在原处，那么你就可以拥有这样的长度。

Now, the resting position of the ankle is not in dorsiflexion.

现在，脚踝的休息位置不是背屈。

It's going to be still in some plantar flexion, but not being driven down and pulled down into that position.

它仍将处于某种跖屈状态，但不会被向下推动并拉至该位置。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

And I think what happens actually is people who get uncomfortable that way, even in their sleep, will shift away from that by turning either onto their side or their stomach.

我认为实际上发生的情况是，那些感到不舒服的人，即使是在睡眠中，也会通过侧卧或俯卧来摆脱这种感觉。

So there's definitely an impact of the body position in sleep and figuring out the best way that you can still sleep, of course, and get your rest, but have a mindful eye towards what it's doing to your body and choose the one that's least abrasive to your body is the way you should go.

因此，睡眠中的身体姿势肯定会产生影响，当然，要找出让您仍然可以睡觉并休息的最佳方式，但要留意它对您的身体的影响，并选择对您的身体磨蚀性最小的方式才是您应该采取的方式。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's terrific.

太棒了。

And again, it's really helped me.

再说一次，它确实对我有帮助。

And I'm a big believer based on good science out of Stanford and elsewhere that as much as we could be nasal breathers in sleep, we probably should be.

基于斯坦福大学和其他地方的良好科学，我坚信，尽管我们在睡眠时可以用鼻呼吸，但我们可能应该这样做。

I don't know if you've done any content yet about taping the mouth shut with some medical tape, but the benefits of nasal breathing in sleep are pretty tremendous.

我不知道你是否做过关于用医用胶带封住嘴巴的内容，但是在睡眠时用鼻呼吸的好处是相当巨大的。

But it takes a little bit of training for people to do, and the training is very simple.

但这需要对人进行一点训练才能做到，而且训练很简单。

It's a little piece of medical tape.

这是一小段医用胶带。

So again, a topic for another time.

再说一次，这个话题下次再谈。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'm glad you mentioned stretching.

我很高兴你提到伸展运动。

I was going to ask about stretching a little bit later, but let's talk about stretching.

我本来想稍后再问一下关于拉伸的问题，但现在我们来谈谈拉伸吧。

When's the best time to stretch for particular types of results?

为了获得特定类型的结果而进行伸展运动的最佳时间是什么时候？

And maybe you could define some of the different types of stretching.

也许你可以定义一些不同类型的拉伸。

You just mentioned a little bit of, what you call it, light stretching or ...

你刚才提到了一点，你称之为轻微拉伸或......

Okay, I'm completely naive here on stretching, so let me just say, I can think of stretching where I hold the stretch and really try and "lengthen," in air quotes, folks.

好吧，我在拉伸方面完全天真，所以让我说，我可以想到在我保持拉伸的地方进行拉伸，并真正尝试“拉长”，用空气引号，伙计们。

I don't want the PTs jumping all over.

我不想让 PT 跳来跳去。

I don't know what it is, but nutrition and the PTs online are really, they've got pitchforks in both hands.

我不知道那是什么，但是营养和网上的PT确实是，他们双手拿着干草叉。

Academics.

学者。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

That is a recent evolution, I think, for sure.

我认为，这肯定是最近的演变。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I see.

我明白了。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

And not the nutrition as much, but the PTs have become a little bit angry these days.

不是营养问题那么多，而是PT们最近变得有点生气了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I see.

我明白了。

Well, I always say, with feelings of powerlessness comes aggression.

嗯，我总是说，伴随着无力感而来的是攻击性。

Remember that, folks.

请记住这一点，伙计们。

So in any case, they're stretching where I'm trying to consciously "lengthen," again, in air quotes, the muscle.

因此，无论如何，它们都在拉伸我试图有意识地“拉长”的地方，再次用空气引语，肌肉。

I'm not yanking on the limb or bobbing up and down.

我不会拉扯肢体或上下摆动。

Maybe you could define the different types of stretching for people.

也许你可以为人们定义不同类型的拉伸。

Maybe give us some rough guidelines about whether or not to do it cold or warm, before training, after training, et cetera.

也许可以给我们一些粗略的指导，比如训练前、训练后等，是冷训练还是热训练。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Yeah.

是的。

Obviously, there's a lot of different types of stretching.

显然，拉伸有很多不同类型。

I could get even into PNF stretching and things that are a little bit more niche.

我什至可以参与 PNF 拉伸和一些更小众的事情。

But in general, the two basic forms of stretching are active stretching and passive stretching, and your dynamic work.

但总的来说，拉伸的两种基本形式是主动拉伸和被动拉伸，以及你的动态工作。

And your passive stretching is done with the goal of trying to create an increase in the flexibility of the muscle.

被动拉伸的目的是尝试增加肌肉的灵活性。

Whether you're actually increasing the length of that muscle, more so what you're doing is decreasing the resistance of that muscle to want to stay at a certain level of flexibility.

无论你实际上是在增加肌肉的长度，更重要的是，你所做的是减少肌肉的阻力，以保持一定程度的灵活性。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

So when we can take the breaks off and allow that muscle to allow us more range of motion, we're inherently increasing flexibility without necessarily having to increase the length of that muscle.

因此，当我们可以停止休息并让肌肉有更大的运动范围时，我们本质上就增加了灵活性，而不必增加肌肉的长度。

That is usually done at a time far away from your workout.

这通常是在远离锻炼的时间进行的。

Because they have shown where this type of stretching done prior to an activity, and it could be a structured activity like lifting, or it could be a little bit less structured, like competing in a sport in a spontaneous type of way.

因为他们已经展示了在活动之前进行这种类型的拉伸，并且它可以是结构化的活动，例如举重，也可以是稍微不那么结构化的活动，例如以自发的方式参加运动。

That there is a period of recalibration that is needed after doing this because you're disrupting the length-tension relationship of the muscle that causes you to not necessarily be able to rely on these.

这样做之后需要一段时间的重新校准，因为你破坏了肌肉的长度-张力关系，导致你不一定能够依赖这些。

I've talked about before, stored motor engrams in your mind in terms of, "This is the pattern for how I swing a golf club," say.

我之前谈到过，在你的脑海中存储运动印记，“这就是我挥动高尔夫球杆的模式，”说。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Now, introducing a little bit of flexibility or added flexibility or range because of the stretching I did before, it takes maybe a hole or two or three to match up again, "Oh, this is what he's trying to do, that golf-swing thing that I remembered again." It's not remembering that every component, like "I have to bend my right wrist back 10 degrees, and then I have to bend my elbow, and I have to break." Your body stores these patterns for motor efficiency.

现在，由于我之前做过的拉伸，引入了一点灵活性或增加了灵活性或范围，可能需要一两个或三个洞才能再次匹配，“哦，这就是他想要做的，我再次记住了高尔夫挥杆的事情。”它不会记住每个组成部分，例如“我必须将右手腕向后弯曲 10 度，然后我必须弯曲肘部，然后我必须折断。”您的身体会存储这些模式以提高运动效率。

And when I have to start matching up that stored pattern with what's feeling new because of the increased range, I can impair performance.

当我必须开始将存储的模式与由于范围增加而感觉新的模式相匹配时，我可能会损害性能。

And again, it could happen even in a gym workout where you're talking about your first, second set, third set where maybe the repercussions aren't as big because I'll just do a few extra sets.

再说一次，即使在健身房锻炼中，你正在谈论你的第一组、第二组、第三组，这种情况也可能发生，也许影响不会那么大，因为我只会多做几组。

But in performance, if you screw up your first three rounds, you plan on a PGA tour and you shoot, you're six over after three, you're done.

但在表演方面，如果你搞砸了前三轮，你计划参加 PGA 巡回赛，然后你投篮，三杆后你是高于标准杆六杆，你就完蛋了。

So I think it matters there.

所以我认为这很重要。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

As far as the dynamic, so we relegate that, as I mentioned, towards the end of the day when it's not going to impact performance, but even maybe have the additional benefit of creating the feeling of length or the increase or decrease in resistance to this length at a time when I know my body is going to try to tend to heal and heal shorter.

就动态而言，正如我所提到的，我们将其降级到一天结束时，它不会影响表现，但甚至可能有额外的好处，即创造长度的感觉或增加或减少对这个长度的抵抗力，而我知道我的身体将尝试愈合并愈合得更短。

Never longer, but heal shorter.

不会变长，但会愈合得更短。

So if I can introduce a little bit of that extra length or decrease resistance to that length, it's a better time to do it.

因此，如果我可以引入一点额外的长度或减少对该长度的阻力，那么现在就是这样做的更好时机。

So I think it promotes a better recovery.

所以我认为它可以促进更好的恢复。

If I want to do-

如果我想做-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Sorry to interrupt, so stretching later in the day ...

抱歉打扰了，所以今天晚些时候要拉伸一下......

Because I'm intrigued by this concept of heal shorter, so part of the healing and recovery process means the shortening of the muscles.

因为我对缩短愈合的概念很感兴趣，所以愈合和恢复过程的一部分意味着肌肉的缩短。

This is the tensing up in sleep.

这就是睡眠中的紧张。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Yes, yeah.

是的，是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Could you elaborate just a bit on that?

您能详细说明一下吗？

And then sorry to break your flow but then to continue-

然后很抱歉打断了你的流程，但然后继续-

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

No. Just basically, what's been shown is that when the repair process, muscular repair from let's say strength training during the day, the repair process usually results in a muscle that is slightly shorter rather than increased in length.

不。基本上，已经证明的是，当修复过程中，比如说白天的力量训练中的肌肉修复时，修复过程通常会导致肌肉稍微变短，而不是增加长度。

It's just muscles prefer to ratchet their way down into that contraction and then maintain that more comfortable length-tension relationship.

只是肌肉更喜欢逐渐向下收缩，然后保持更舒适的长度-张力关系。

So when you're sleeping, it tends to err on the side of shorter rather than longer.

因此，当你睡觉时，宁可睡得短一些，也不愿睡得长一些。

When ideally, we don't really want that.

理想情况下，我们并不真正想要这样。

We want to maintain as much of that length, because with more length, we actually have more leverage.

我们希望保持尽可能多的长度，因为长度越长，我们实际上就有更多的影响力。

That muscle has more leverage to contract.

该肌肉有更多的杠杆作用来收缩。

If it was all the way contracted, you really can't, obviously we know, generate much force in a muscle that's already maximally contracted.

如果它一直收缩，显然我们知道，你真的不能在已经最大限度收缩的肌肉中产生很大的力量。

So I think we want to do something that, whatever we can, whatever little weapons we have in our arsenal that could allow us to do this prior to sleep.

所以我认为我们想要做一些事情，尽我们所能，无论我们的武器库中有多少小武器，都可以让我们在睡觉前做到这一点。

And again, it's just making a conscious choice to do it at a time of the day that makes a little bit more sense.

再说一次，这只是有意识地选择在一天中更有意义的时间去做这件事。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Dynamic stretching is really not done for that purpose of trying to create any type of feeling of or increasing the potential length, as you said, of the muscle, but more so the readiness of the muscle to perform.

正如您所说，动态拉伸实际上并不是为了试图创造任何类型的感觉或增加肌肉的潜在长度，而是为了让肌肉做好执行的准备。

And increasing, exploring the ends of that range of motion in a more dynamic way so you're not hanging out there and disrupting that length-tension relationship but just touching the ends of those barriers, so that when you feel movement again, it feels looser.

并以更动态的方式增加、探索运动范围的末端，这样你就不会在那里闲逛并破坏长度-张力关系，而只是触摸这些障碍的末端，这样当你再次感觉到运动时，感觉会更放松。

It feels more ready.

感觉准备得更充分了。

And obviously, at the same time warming up blood flow, all the benefits we get from just warming up in general.

显然，在加速血液流动的同时，我们从一般的热身中获得了所有的好处。

So that's the series you've probably seen a bunch of times, with leg swings and butt kicks and walking lunges and all types of drills.

这就是您可能已经看过很多次的系列，其中有腿部摆动、踢屁股、弓箭步和所有类型的练习。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Toe touches.

脚趾接触。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Toe touches, all those drills, those active stretching drills, or lunging with rotations for the upper body to try to get some of the thoracic spine involved too.

脚趾接触，所有这些练习，那些主动伸展练习，或者旋转上半身的弓箭步，试图让一些胸椎也参与进来。

Those are the drills that people will do prior to training that are both excitatory in terms of just the nervous system, but also helpful for just the general warmup of the body because of the blood flow.

这些是人们在训练之前进行的练习，这些练习既可以使神经系统兴奋，又可以通过血液流动而有助于身体的总体热身。

But from a muscle-readiness standpoint, not impairing the performance, while at the same time, exploring the increased ranges.

但从肌肉准备的角度来看，不会损害表现，同时探索增加的范围。

Because as you know, the first toe touch you do is not as high as the last toe touch you do.

因为如您所知，您第一次触碰脚趾的高度不如最后一次触碰脚趾的高度。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

For me, it doesn't even include the toe.

对我来说，它甚至不包括脚趾。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Right, the shin touch.

对了，小腿的触感。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Toe touch attempt.

尝试触碰脚趾。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Right.

对。

So those are going to improve with each subsequent rep.

因此，这些都会随着后续的每一次代表而得到改善。

And I think that's what people actually ...

我认为这就是人们实际上......

When you can see those actual changes from rep one to rep seven, you just feel ready.

当您看到从第 1 次到第 7 次的实际变化时，您就觉得准备好了。

You feel more alert and ready to go on your workout.

您会感到更加警觉并准备好继续锻炼。

The dynamic type of stretching, and I mentioned earlier on what I've had to do to increase my warmup focus, I think that's more of what I try to do these days.

动态类型的拉伸，我之前提到过我必须做些什么来增加我的热身注意力，我认为这也是我这些天尝试做的更多事情。

I try to be a little bit more alert to the fact that my body's not ready.

我试着对我的身体还没有准备好这一事实更加警惕。

When I was working with Antonio Brown, I remember he would spend 20 minutes, 30 minutes on all dynamic work.

当我和安东尼奥·布朗一起工作时，我记得他会花20分钟、30分钟做所有充满活力的工作。

And I've never seen anybody spend that long on their dynamic work.

我从未见过有人在充满活力的工作上花费那么长时间。

But like he said, he just didn't feel right and ready to go unless he did a lot of that.

但正如他所说，除非他做了很多这样的事情，否则他只是感觉不对劲，没有准备好出发。

And his dynamic stretching routine would be a workout for most everybody.

他的动态伸展运动适合大多数人。

It's crazy how much he did.

他做了多少事真是太疯狂了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

These pro athletes are amazing, and you've had the great fortune of working with and improving their abilities.

这些职业运动员都很了不起，您非常幸运能够与他们合作并提高他们的能力。

But I can only imagine, because I also imagine he's pretty strong in the gym also.

但我只能想象，因为我也想象他在健身房里也很强壮。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

It always amazes me, the guys that make it to that level, no matter what sport they do.

那些达到这个水平的人总是让我感到惊讶，无论他们从事什么运动。

They're so gifted in everything.

他们在一切方面都很有天赋。

David Wright used to make me laugh all the time with the Mets, because no matter what I ...

大卫·赖特 (David Wright) 在大都会队的时候总是让我开怀大笑，因为无论我......

ping pong, anything, because of his hand-eye coordination, anything.

乒乓球，任何东西，因为他的手眼协调能力，任何东西。

Great at jump rope.

擅长跳绳。

I remember he hadn't done a lot of jump rope, and I think jump rope's one of the best things you could do from a conditioning standpoint.

我记得他没有做过很多跳绳，我认为从体能的角度来看，跳绳是你能做的最好的事情之一。

It's actually, it's fairly interesting.

事实上，这相当有趣。

It's not just ...

这不仅仅是...

It's not too harsh on the joints, depending, even though it's a ballistic move.

尽管这是一种弹道移动，但它对关节的伤害并不太严重。

And he wasn't — I have to admit, if he listens to this, he's going to want to kill me, but I was better at him at jump roping.

但他不是——我必须承认，如果他听到这个，他会想杀了我，但我更擅长跳绳。

One of the only things I could do.

我唯一能做的事情之一。

And then I gave him about five days, and he completely blew me out of the water to the point where I could never keep up with him anymore.

然后我给了他大约五天的时间，他彻底把我从水中吹了出来，以至于我再也无法跟上他了。

He made it look effortless.

他让它看起来毫不费力。

It's like that's where the athlete in someone comes out.

这就像一个人身上的运动员的表现。

No matter what they pick up, they're good at it.

不管他们捡到什么，他们都很擅长。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

And I think that when you see guys like this in the gym, their strength levels tend to be pretty damn good.

我认为当你在健身房看到这样的人时，他们的力量水平往往非常好。

And their abilities, their coordination, their everything just tends to be good at that level.

他们的能力，他们的协调性，他们的一切都在那个水平上趋于良好。

And it amazes me why those guys can go pick up a golf club and go shoot 72, and having never really played.

让我感到惊讶的是，为什么那些从未真正打过球的家伙可以拿起高尔夫球杆打出 72 杆。

They're just naturally good at whatever they do.

他们天生擅长做任何事。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

I'm smiling because I've a couple really close friends who did a number of years, some several decades in the SEAL teams, and I don't know that their skill level at everything is so high as you're describing for athletes, but their level of competitiveness is beyond.

我微笑是因为我有几个非常亲密的朋友，他们在海豹突击队服役了很多年，有的几十年了，我不知道他们在所有方面的技能水平都像你描述的运动员那么高，但他们的竞争力水平超出了。

I ocean swim with one.

我和其中一个一起在大海里游泳。

There's no chance that I'm going to outswim Pat ever, ever.

我永远不可能比帕特游得更快。

He actually goes back and forth sometimes just to check up on me, which I appreciate.

事实上，他有时会来回检查我的情况，对此我很感激。

Thank you, Pat.

谢谢你，帕特。

I haven't drowned yet.

我还没淹死呢

But in addition to that, we could play horseshoes and it's like this switch that just flips on.

但除此之外，我们还可以玩马蹄铁，就像这个开关一样，只要打开即可。

He's going to murder me at horseshoes.

他会用马蹄铁谋杀我。

He's a very nice guy.

他是一个非常好的人。

In general, they tend to be very nice, but the level of competitiveness is ...

一般来说，他们往往非常友善，但竞争力水平......

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Well, they're-

嗯，他们是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

unreal.

不真实的。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

They're selected for it.

他们就是为此被选中的。

They're trying to beat themselves.

他们试图打败自己。

They're not even trying to beat you.

他们甚至不想打败你。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's right.

没错。

I'm not even in the competition.

我什至没有参加比赛。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

You're not even in the competition.

你甚至没有参加比赛。

You're not even there.

你甚至都不在那儿。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, exactly.

是的，完全正确。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Thank you.

谢谢你。

Now, you won't feel so bad.

现在，你不会感觉那么糟糕了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Or worse.

或者更糟。

It's true.

这是真的。

It's a remarkable thing.

这是一件了不起的事情。

I'm glad you mentioned jump roping.

我很高兴你提到跳绳。

I used to skip rope for warmup for boxing.

我过去常常跳绳来热身拳击。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Yeah, of course.

是的，当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Those three-minute rounds or something like that.

那些三分钟的回合或类似的东西。

But I'm glad you brought it up because skipping rope is something that obviously has a cardiovascular component.

但我很高兴你提出来，因为跳绳显然具有心血管成分。

There's the conditioning component.

这是调节组件。

There's timing.

有时机。

And it is interesting.

这很有趣。

It's frustrating when you don't get it, especially when it whips you on the ear if you're using a proper rope.

当你没有得到它时，你会感到沮丧，尤其是当你使用合适的绳子时，它会抽打你的耳朵。

I'm just curious, if you could just give us a quick skipping rope one-on-one.

我只是好奇，你能否给我们一对一的快速跳绳。

Do you like to see people jumping with both feet and toes?

你喜欢看到人们用双脚和脚趾跳跃吗？

We'll link to a video, if there was one and I missed it.

如果有视频但我错过了，我们将链接到该视频。

Do you like to see people doing high knees?

你喜欢看人们高抬腿吗？

Do you like people basically shuffling?

你喜欢人们基本上拖拖拉拉吗？

You want to see people doing double Dutch?

你想看到人们做双重荷兰语吗？

What do you want to see people doing over time?

随着时间的推移，您希望看到人们做什么？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You want to see people doing double Dutch?

你想看到人们做双重荷兰语吗？

What do you want to see people doing over time?

随着时间的推移，您希望看到人们做什么？

PART 2 OF 5 ENDS Jeff Cavaliere:

第 2 部分（共 5 部分）结束 Jeff Cavaliere：

All of the above, maybe not the double Dutch, but all of the above.

以上所有，也许不是双重荷兰人，而是以上所有。

I mean, I think that's the cool thing about it once we master the skill, because for all of us, that first jump with the two feet going together is a challenge because you just got to time that rope, you got to time your jump.

我的意思是，我认为一旦我们掌握了这项技能，这就是很酷的事情，因为对于我们所有人来说，两只脚并拢的第一次跳跃是一个挑战，因为你必须计算出绳子的时间，你必须计算出跳跃的时间。

And then we get bored, as we often do as humans.

然后我们就会感到无聊，就像我们作为人类经常做的那样。

We get bored with what we can do.

我们对自己能做的事情感到厌倦。

We want to take on new challenges, so then it becomes one leg at a time, or then it becomes side-to-side hops, right?

我们想要接受新的挑战，所以它会变成一次单腿，或者然后变成一边到另一边的跳跃，对吗？

All of those things are beneficial, I believe, neurologically, to enhancing the ability to do the skill as a whole, but also just because I'm such a believer in training in all three planes.

我相信，从神经学角度来说，所有这些事情对于提高整体技能的能力都是有益的，而且也只是因为我非常相信在所有三个层面上进行训练。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

So just doing straight up and down versus now I can do frontal plane side-to-side motion, and then I can even do small little twists or cork screws, you call them, you would know better than I do — it requires different neurological patterns to be able to coordinate that because you're changing the orientation of your body in space.

所以，只是做垂直向上和向下，而不是现在，我可以做额面左右运动，然后我什至可以做一些小的扭转或软木塞螺丝，你称之为，你会比我更清楚 - 它需要不同的神经模式来协调，因为你正在改变你的身体在空间中的方向。

So it's not just them changing the exercise, but I'm changing how my body interprets that exercise because of what's happening to my body in space.

因此，不仅仅是他们改变了锻炼方式，而且我也在改变我的身体对锻炼方式的解读，因为我的身体在太空中发生了什么事。

So I love whatever people wind up doing, but I am amazed, there are people ...

所以我喜欢人们最终所做的一切，但我很惊讶，有人......

I just started following this young woman on Instagram who is like ...

我刚刚开始在 Instagram 上关注这位年轻女士，她就像……

I'll give her a plug.

我会给她一个插头。

I think it's like Anna Skips or something and she is ridiculous.

我觉得这就像安娜·斯基普斯之类的，她很可笑。

I watch her and I'm mesmerized of what she can do with the rope.

我看着她，对她用绳子做的事情着迷。

It is an extremely athletic endeavor when it gets to be at that level and the speed and the precision.

当达到这样的水平、速度和精度时，这是一项极其运动的努力。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

I think one of the goals that you want be able to have is to where you're feeling as if you're almost effortlessly dancing without a rope, where you're just bouncing off of the ball of your foot.

我认为你想要实现的目标之一就是让你感觉自己几乎毫不费力地在没有绳子的情况下跳舞，你只是用脚掌弹跳。

It's an important skill to learn too, whether you go back to run or even jog, just more casual running.

这也是一项需要学习的重要技能，无论你是回去跑步还是慢跑，只是更休闲的跑步。

Learning how to land is so important.

学习如何着陆非常重要。

One of the drills that people should try is try to jump on your heels.

人们应该尝试的练习之一是尝试用脚跟跳。

So just stand up, pull your toes off the ground and just jump from your heels and land on your heels.

所以，站起来，将脚趾拉离地面，然后从脚后跟跳起，然后用脚后跟着地。

You'll feel it in your jaw.

你会在下巴感觉到它。

You'll literally feel your jaw rattle when you land on your heels.

当你脚后跟着地时，你真的会感觉到你的下巴嘎嘎作响。

There is no shock absorption capabilities through your heels.

脚后跟没有减震能力。

Meantime, a lot of people land on their heels a lot when they run, and your body's not built to absorb the forces like the ball of your foot could.

与此同时，很多人在跑步时经常会脚后跟着地，而你的身体无法像脚掌那样吸收力量。

It's really built as a spring.

它确实是作为弹簧建造的。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

The foot is, to me as a physical therapist, the foot has always been one of the most ...

对于我作为物理治疗师来说，脚一直是最...

You talk about having bad feet.

你说的是脚不好。

I have flat feet.

我有扁平足。

It looks like I got flippers if I took my shoes off, like I'm wearing scuba fins.

如果我脱掉鞋子，看起来就像我穿上了脚蹼，就像我穿着潜水脚蹼一样。

There is no adaptability of that foot to the surface.

该脚对地面没有适应性。

When it's completely caved and flattened like that.

当它完全塌陷并变平时。

The job of the foot is to be adaptable.

脚的工作是具有适应性。

Well, maybe there is some adaptability because it's so floppy, but at the same time, at some point, that critical junction when you're going to then step through and you need to be able to push off, the foot has to actually changes in the midfoot itself, to become a rigid lever is what they call it.

好吧，也许有一些适应性，因为它太松软了，但同时，在某些时候，当你要跨过那个关键的连接点并且你需要能够推开时，脚必须在中足本身发生实际变化，成为他们所说的刚性杠杆。

You're going from a mobile adapter to a rigid lever.

您将从移动适配器变为刚性杠杆。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

That rigid lever literally locks up the midtarsal joint to become solid, so that you can push off of it with leverage.

这个刚性杠杆实际上锁定了跗骨关节，使其变得坚固，这样你就可以用杠杆将其推开。

If you lack that capability, all those stresses that are supposed to be borne by the foot go up into the ankle, into the knee, into the hip, into the low back.

如果你缺乏这种能力，所有那些本应由脚承受的压力都会上升到脚踝、膝盖、臀部和腰部。

So learning how to land and start to train your body to experience ground reaction forces the right way is so critical to all other function and all other disability up the kinetic chain.

因此，学习如何着陆并开始训练您的身体以正确的方式体验地面反作用力对于动力链上的所有其他功能和所有其他残疾至关重要。

Jumping rope is one of the best ways to learn how to do that.

跳绳是学习如何做到这一点的最佳方法之一。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Great.

太棒了。

I own a jump rope.

我有一根跳绳。

I love doing it in the morning while I get sunlight in my eyes.

我喜欢在早上这样做，让阳光照射到眼睛里。

It's actually a protocol I picked up from Tim Ferris.

这实际上是我从蒂姆·费里斯那里得到的协议。

I'm mentioning it because ...

我提到它是因为...

listeners in my podcast know I'm like a broken record with "Get sunlight in your eyes, even through cloud cover." It just sets your sleep rhythms and your waking rhythms, yada-yada, on and on, but sometimes it'd be boring for people, and I want to get them off their phone.

我的播客中的听众都知道我就像一张破唱片，上面写着“即使透过云层，也要让阳光照进你的眼睛”。它只是设定你的睡眠节奏和清醒节奏，yada-yada，一直持续，但有时这对人们来说很无聊，我想让他们停止使用手机。

So jumping rope's also just a great way to wake up.

所以跳绳也是一种很好的提神方式。

So jumping rope can be the cardio workout, the 15, 30 minutes.

所以跳绳可以作为有氧运动，15、30 分钟。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Definitely.

绝对是。

There's sort of that hybrid that we were talking about before of you're not necessarily dropping down to the ground and doing burpees, but I just look at it as a more athletic endeavor because of the coordination involved than just simply walking or jogging.

我们之前讨论过这种混合运动，你不一定要倒在地上做立卧撑跳，但我只是将其视为一种更具运动性的努力，因为它涉及到协调性，而不仅仅是简单的步行或慢跑。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

It's not much of an equipment requirement.

对装备要求并不高。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

No, no, super easy.

不不，超级简单。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Very minimal cost.

成本非常低。

You could even use a rope or something if you ...

你甚至可以使用绳子或其他东西，如果你...

Although-

虽然——

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

We even instruct people that they can use no rope and just pretend and just move the arms, right?

我们甚至告诉人们，他们可以不使用绳子，只是假装移动手臂，对吧？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Truly zero cost.

真正做到零成本。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

You're never going to hit the rope, which is good, but at the same ...

你永远不会撞到绳子，这很好，但同时......

So you're never going to know if you're doing it wrong, but at least you can move through that and get the same benefits through the feet.

所以你永远不会知道自己是否做错了，但至少你可以克服这个问题，并通过脚获得同样的好处。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I love it.

我喜欢它。

I love it.

我喜欢它。

I told myself before sitting down with you today that I wasn't going to focus on specific exercises because there's such a wealth of incredible content that you put out there that people could just put into YouTube or elsewhere and arrive at the proper way to do a chin or a dip or for whatever purpose, but there's one exercise and one particular motion that I'd like to discuss for a moment because I believe that learning about this cautionary note from you is one of the reasons that I've maintained steady training for 30 years with no major injury, knock on wood, and that's the upright row.

在今天和你坐下来之前，我告诉自己，我不会专注于具体的练习，因为你发布了如此丰富的令人难以置信的内容，人们可以将其放入 YouTube 或其他地方，然后找到正确的方式做下巴或双臂屈伸或出于任何目的，但我想讨论一下一项练习和一项特定的动作，因为我相信从你那里了解这一警告说明是我 30 年来一直保持稳定训练而没有遭受重大伤害的原因之一，敲木头，就是直立的一排。

One thing that, whether or not people weight train or not-

有一件事，无论人们是否进行重量训练——

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Do we censor this podcast?

我们会审查这个播客吗？

Do we censor it and we beep this out or no?

我们是否对其进行审查并发出声音，或者不？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Oh, do you get beef about this?

哦，你对这个有意见吗？

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

No. Oh, you know what, we always get beef in any social media platform where we're put out.

不。哦，你知道吗，我们在任何社交媒体平台上发布的内容总是会受到批评。

But no, I get some from it, but I'm fully prepared to defend myself.

但不，我从中得到了一些，但我已做好充分准备为自己辩护。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

But here's the reason for asking about this.

但这就是问这个问题的原因。

I never really cared much for upright rows.

我从来不太关心直立划船。

It's not an exercise I tend to do, but one thing that's apparent in all my colleagues and every child I see and every adult I see is that almost everybody is in inward rotation now.

这不是我倾向于做的练习，但在我所有的同事以及我看到的每个孩子和每个成年人身上显而易见的一件事是，现在几乎每个人都在向内旋转。

I think I learned this from you also.

我想我也是从你那里学到这一点的。

If you stand up straight and then you just point your thumbs out like a thumbs up, but you're just pointing, your hands are down, you're pointing your thumbs straight out, ideally they would go straight out.

如果你站直，然后你只是像竖起大拇指一样伸出拇指，但你只是在指，你的手向下，你把拇指笔直地伸出来，理想情况下它们会笔直伸出。

Most people the thumbs going to be pointing toward one another because most people are starting to look somewhere between a nonhuman primate and a melted candle, bent at the hips, et cetera from too much sitting.

大多数人的拇指会互相指向，因为大多数人开始寻找一种介于非人类灵长类动物和一根融化的蜡烛之间的东西，因为坐得太久而导致臀部弯曲等等。

We're all sitting.

我们都坐着。

We're in inward rotation, but I learned from you that the upright row compromises some important aspects of our shoulder mechanics and could be actually a dangerous movement in some ways.

我们处于向内旋转的状态，但我从你那里了解到，直立划船会损害我们肩部力学的一些重要方面，并且在某些方面实际上可能是一种危险的运动。

I'm sure there's a safe way for people to do it.

我确信人们有一种安全的方法可以做到这一点。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So I've always made it a point now on the basis of this advice to, A, not do upright rows, but I wasn't doing them before, but to really strive for external rotation on things like bench dips, on a number of different things.

所以我现在总是根据这个建议来强调，A，不要做直立划船，但我以前没有做过，但要真正努力在卧推臂屈伸等许多不同的事情上进行外旋。

Whenever I can, I try and go into external rotation, provided without looking like an idiot walking around with my palms facing outward.

只要有可能，我都会尝试进行外旋，前提是不要看起来像个手掌朝外走来走去的白痴。

Please tell us about internal, external rotation — the upright row is one aspect of that — but why this is so important, not just for weight training but in terms of posture and mechanics and not looking like a melted candle or partially melted candle.

请告诉我们有关内部、外部旋转的信息——直立划船是其中的一个方面——但为什么这如此重要，不仅对于重量训练，而且在姿势和力学方面，而且看起来不像一根融化的蜡烛或部分融化的蜡烛。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

I actually love it.

我真的很喜欢它。

I'm happy to talk about it because I love the shoulder as a joint.

我很高兴谈论它，因为我喜欢肩膀作为一个关节。

I think PTs tend to fall in love with certain areas, and the shoulder is one of the cool areas for me just like the foot is, but the shoulder has the most mobility in the body of any joint, but it's also got the least stability, right?

我认为PT们往往会爱上某些部位，而肩部对我来说是很酷的部位之一，就像脚一样，但肩部在身体的所有关节中具有最大的灵活性，但它的稳定性也最差，对吧？

There's always that trade-off of mobility and stability.

总是需要在移动性和稳定性之间进行权衡。

So your stability comes from certain muscle groups, and one of the ones that ...

因此，您的稳定性来自某些肌肉群，而其中的肌肉群之一......

The only muscle group that actually externally rotates the shoulder is going to be the rotator cuff.

唯一真正使肩部外旋的肌肉群是肩袖。

Okay.

好的。

Unless you are devoted to training through external rotation and exercises that are going to externally rotate the shoulder, you're not training that function.

除非您致力于通过外旋和使肩部外旋的练习进行训练，否则您就没有训练该功能。

It's so easy for us in everyday life, especially those that aren't training, to not ever really undergo any of those stresses that could be beneficial to counteracting what happens freely and naturally, which is internal rotation.

对于我们来说，在日常生活中，尤其是那些没有接受训练的人，很容易不会真正承受任何可能有利于抵消自由自然发生的压力，即内旋。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

So when you think about the imbalance created just by nature and how we live our lives, internal rotation far, far, far outweighs external rotation, so you need to address it.

因此，当您考虑自然造成的不平衡以及我们的生活方式时，内部旋转远远超过外部旋转，因此您需要解决它。

The reason why you need to address it is because you need to normalize those biomechanics to the shoulder if you want their long-term health.

您之所以需要解决这个问题，是因为如果您想要肩膀的长期健康，您需要使肩部的生物力学正常化。

One of the functions of the shoulder is to raise our arm up over our head.

肩膀的功能之一是将我们的手臂举过头顶。

If we do that from an internally rotated position, we're going to have a higher likelihood of creating stress inside that joint.

如果我们从内部旋转位置进行此操作，我们将更有可能在该关节内产生压力。

Funny thing is I talked about before, my PT brethren can be somewhat angry these days, I don't know what happened, but fairly angry — they want to discredit the existence of something like shoulder impingement, which I don't know how ...

有趣的是我之前谈到过，我的 PT 弟兄们这些天可能有点生气，我不知道发生了什么，但相当生气 - 他们想要抹黑肩部撞击症之类的东西的存在，我不知道如何......

We all read studies and studies will say one thing one day and potentially conflict entirely in a different direction.

我们都读过研究，研究有一天会说一件事，但可能会在完全不同的方向上发生冲突。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Some studies will point to the nonexistence of a shoulder impingement.

一些研究表明不存在肩部撞击。

Meanwhile, we have, thankfully, digital motion x-ray that will literally show the impingement occur in real time, in real function, and that's one of the limitations.

与此同时，值得庆幸的是，我们拥有数字运动 X 射线，可以真实地显示实时发生的撞击，在实际功能中，这是限制之一。

I'm off on a tangent here, but those types of x-rays or that type of fluoroscopy that we have nowadays gives us such insight that we never had before because we're taking static x-rays on someone laying down on a table.

我在这里偏离了主题，但是我们现在拥有的那些类型的 X 射线或那种类型的透视给我们提供了我们以前从未有过的洞察力，因为我们正在对躺在桌子上的人进行静态 X 射线检查。

When I want to see what happens when you actually raise my arm up over my head in function, and the tools now exist to do that.

当我想看看当你实际上将我的手臂举过头顶时会发生什么，而现在已经有了可以做到这一点的工具。

We see the problems occurring because in order to get normal mechanics and free up the joint maximally inside, you need to externally rotate as you raise the arm up.

我们看到问题的发生是因为为了获得正常的力学并最大程度地释放内部关节，您需要在抬起手臂时向外旋转。

So if your muscles aren't firing, and they're not necessarily as strong as the internal rotation bias that pulls them in, you're asking for trouble every time you do that.

因此，如果你的肌肉没有放电，而且它们不一定像拉动它们的内旋偏压那么强大，那么每次你这样做都是在自找麻烦。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Well, this exercise is literally putting you in elevation and internal rotation.

嗯，这个练习实际上是让你处于仰角和内旋状态。

If you were to walk into a PT office and someone said, "I think he's got impingement.

如果你走进 PT 办公室，有人说：“我认为他患有撞击症。

Will you diagnose him?" there's a test called a Hawkins-Kennedy test, and I would put you in the position.

你会给他诊断吗？”有一个测试叫做霍金斯-肯尼迪测试，我会把你放在这个位置上。

I know we're not visible at this point through the podcast, but I'll put you in this position here where I have your arm elevated and your hand pretty much under your chin, pushing downward on that to create that internal shoulder rotation, pretty much the exact position that we're in when we're holding a bar in an upright row.

我知道我们此时在播客中是看不到的，但我会让你处于这个位置，我将你的手臂举起，你的手几乎放在下巴下方，向下推以产生肩部内部旋转，这几乎就是我们在直立举起杠铃时所处的位置。

Some will say, "Well, just don't go so high.

有些人会说：“好吧，别走那么高。

Go only up to the level of the chest," but you're still in this internally rotated position.

只达到胸部的水平，”但你仍然处于这种内部旋转的位置。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

The thing that I think frustrates me the most about the exercise is that I have an alternative, and the alternative does the same thing in terms of helping the muscles grow by simply fixing the biomechanics of the exercise, but just allowing the hands to go higher than the elbows.

我认为这项练习最让我沮丧的是我有一个替代方案，而替代方案通过简单地固定练习的生物力学来帮助肌肉生长，但只是让手高于肘部，从而起到同样的作用。

So instead of the elbows being higher than the hand, which drives you into internal rotation, if the elbow is lower than the hand, the hand being higher here, I'm in external rotation and I could do something called a high pull and still get the same abduction of the arm, and you still get the same benefits of the shoulders, the delts, and the traps without having to undergo any of the stresses that would come from the somewhat awkward movement of an upright row.

因此，不是肘部高于手，这会驱使你进行内旋，如果肘部低于手，这里的手较高，那么我就处于外旋状态，我可以做一些称为高拉的动作，并且仍然得到相同的手臂外展，并且你仍然可以获得肩膀、三角肌和斜方肌的相同好处，而不必承受任何因直立划船的有点尴尬的运动而产生的压力。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

For those listening, we'll put a link to a short clip of what this looks like, but basically what Jeff is doing, and tell me if I'm describing this incorrectly or correctly, Jeff, is taking your two thumbs and pointing behind you, and so elbows up near the chin and pointing behind you headed that way, like somebody directing the airplane like, "Come back, come back, come back."

对于那些听的人，我们将放一个简短的链接，展示这看起来像什么，但基本上是杰夫正在做的事情，并告诉我我描述的是否正确或正确，杰夫，用你的两个拇指指向你的身后，然后肘部向上靠近下巴并指向你身后的方向，就像有人指挥飞机一样，“回来，回来，回来。”

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Yeah.

是的。

Yep.

是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I forget what they call that.

我忘了他们叫什么。

I think it's called semaphoring is the action of where they direct the planes or something, the flags or whatever.

我认为这被称为信号传递，是他们指挥飞机或其他东西、旗帜或其他东西的动作。

Someone will, of course, tell me I'm wrong about that too, which is why I say these things because I like being told what the correct answer is.

当然，有人会告诉我我的想法也是错的，这就是我说这些话的原因，因为我喜欢被告知正确的答案是什么。

In any case, so this replaces the upright row and probably does a number of other important things as well.

无论如何，它取代了直立的行，并且可能还做了许多其他重要的事情。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Yeah.

是的。

Well, again, listen, without naming names or programs or anything like that, when I got involved in Athlean-X, when I first started my online presence, there was a very, very, very popular program that was out there that just for fun, I wanted to — as a PT, this is the nerdy things we do — but I wanted to evaluate the workout structure.

好吧，再说一次，听着，不点名或程序或类似的东西，当我参与 Athlean-X 时，当我第一次开始在网上露面时，有一个非常、非常、非常受欢迎的程序，只是为了好玩，我想——作为一名 PT，这就是我们所做的书呆子的事情——但我想评估锻炼结构。

I went and I looked at every rep over the course of a week, and there were something like 890 repetitions or something done, and zero of them were dedicated external rotation in the shoulder.

我去观察了一周内的每一次重复，大约有 890 次重复或完成了一些动作，其中零次是专门的肩部外旋。

So if you think about it, I mean, yeah, it was a very popular program that was done by a lot of people.

所以如果你想一想，我的意思是，是的，这是一个非常受欢迎的程序，由很多人完成。

There was no focus at all, no dedicated focus towards creating a balance to an action that is so predominant.

根本没有焦点，没有专注于为如此重要的行动创造平衡。

Remember, it's not just because we sit with bad posture, but the fact that our chest can internally rotate.

请记住，这不仅仅是因为我们坐姿不好，而是因为我们的胸部可以内旋。

Our lats can internally rotate.

我们的背阔肌可以内旋。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

There's other big muscles that participate in things that we do every day that will further internally rotate the shoulder.

还有其他大肌肉参与我们每天所做的事情，这些肌肉会进一步使肩膀内旋。

The only weapons we have for external rotation are those little rotator cuff muscles, and three of them, actually, three of the four, and the job is to actively and consciously train them through really the boring exercises, right?

我们唯一拥有的外旋武器就是那些小的肩袖肌肉，其中三块，实际上是四块中的三块，我们的工作就是通过无聊的练习来积极、有意识地训练它们，对吗？

You've seen them with the band, you anchor a band to a pole.

你见过他们和乐队在一起，你把乐队固定在一根杆子上。

You stand with the band in the opposite hand.

你站着，另一只手拿着乐队。

So if it's anchored to the pole on my left side, I've got the band on my right side and you see people where they rotate their hand towards the back, again, kind of what you were saying, but at a lower elevation, taking the back of my hand and trying to point it to somebody behind me.

因此，如果它固定在我左侧的杆子上，我的右侧就有带子，你会看到人们将手向后旋转，再次，有点像你所说的，但在较低的高度，握住我的手背并试图将其指向我身后的某人。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Well, that is one of the ways to train the muscle.

嗯，这是训练肌肉的方法之一。

It's just of one function of the shoulder, external rotation of the shoulder, and you need to do it.

这只是肩膀的一项功能，肩膀的外旋，你需要这样做。

If somebody was doing more external rotation work, could they absorb the upright row better?

如果有人做更多的外旋训练，他们能更好地吸收直立划船吗？

Probably because as they elevated the arm, they'd probably have a little bit more of a contribution from the rotator cuff to what one of the functions is to centralize the head of the humerus inside of the glenoid, the capsule.

可能是因为当他们举起手臂时，肩袖对将肱骨头集中在关节盂（关节囊）内部的功能之一可能有更多的贡献。

So as it rises up, it stays central as opposed to migrating up, because the deltoid likes to pull up.

因此，当它上升时，它会保持在中心位置，而不是向上迁移，因为三角肌喜欢向上拉。

So if the rotator cuff has some ability to counteract the upward pull of the delt, then it can maintain a more healthy relationship with overhead movement.

因此，如果肩袖有一定的能力抵消三角肌的向上拉力，那么它就可以与过头动作保持更健康的关系。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

So just realizing that that function is only gained through doing these exercises, we would probably dedicate more time there, but the upright row might be better absorbed by that person because they have a little bit more strength.

因此，只要意识到这种功能只能通过进行这些练习来获得，我们可能会花更多的时间在那里，但直立划船可能会被那个人更好地吸收，因为他们有更多的力量。

But again, why?

但话又说回来，为什么呢？

Because if you have an exercise that does the same thing for what you're trying to do muscularly, to build the muscles that it affects, why wouldn't you just do it, where you can still see and actually pick up more repetitions of external rotation?

因为如果你有一项练习与你想要锻炼肌肉的动作有同样的作用，为了锻炼它所影响的肌肉，你为什么不直接去做，因为你仍然可以看到并实际上获得更多的外旋重复次数呢？

So you're getting none of the harm, all of the benefits.

所以你不会受到任何伤害，反而会得到所有好处。

I see zero reason to ever do the upright row.

我认为做直立划船的理由为零。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

People will argue.

人们会争论。

This is the way they argue that, "I've done this for 30 years and I've never hurt myself." I always say "Yet, yet." Listen, the goal is to not hurt yourself ever.

他们就是这样辩解的，“我已经这样做了 30 年，而且我从未伤害过自己。”我总是说“还，还”。听着，我们的目标是永远不要伤害自己。

It's sort of like the championship game.

这有点像冠军赛。

You might play the game of your life, but if you lose, you're lost.

你可能会玩你一生的游戏，但如果你输了，你就输了。

When you get into the end of the record books, you still lost.

当你进入记录簿的末尾时，你仍然输了。

So even if you had the game of your life, you lost.

所以，即使你玩了一生中最精彩的游戏，你还是输了。

I don't care if you do it for 30 years, no pain, you're still doing it and there's no pain.

我不在乎你是否做了30年，没有痛苦，你仍然这样做，没有痛苦。

I'm giving you an option that's going to give you the same results in the exercise that you're seeking — that's why you're doing the exercise — without the possibility of having the bad outcome come from it.

我给你一个选择，它会给你带来与你正在寻求的练习相同的结果——这就是你做这个练习的原因——而不可能产生不好的结果。

So I get a little bit defensive of the move, but I feel like it's like, why would you do that?

所以我对这一举动有点防御，但我觉得，你为什么要这么做？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

No, it makes sense.

不，这是有道理的。

Being able to train for a long period of time and feel good, I'm proud to say ...

能够进行长时间的训练并且感觉良好，我很自豪地说......

And I don't have the kind of genetics, we don't have a lot of impressive athletes in our family tree or anything.

我没有这样的基因，我们的家谱中没有很多令人印象深刻的运动员或其他什么。

There are some fit individuals, some less fit individuals, but I really believe it's about putting in the work consistently over time.

有些人适合，有些人不太适合，但我真的相信这需要随着时间的推移持续投入工作。

The more often you can wake up not in pain, the better.

您醒来时不感到疼痛的次数越多越好。

And so, I think that being in external rotation as often as possible is good.

所以，我认为尽可能经常进行外轮换是好的。

This is actually ...

这其实是...

a good friend who's a yoga teacher told me this is also a problem with the yogis, all the downward dog stuff.

一位瑜伽老师的好朋友告诉我，这也是瑜伽修行者的问题，所有下犬式的东西。

For those listening, you can think of inward rotation as thumbs down, just think thumbs down rotation isn't bad, but less thumbs down, more thumbs up is external rotation.

对于那些听的人来说，你可以把向内旋转视为拇指向下，只是认为拇指向下旋转还不错，但是拇指向下的次数少，拇指向上的次数多就是外旋。

So for those just listening, maybe that gives a visual.

所以对于那些只是聆听的人来说，也许这会带来视觉效果。

The more exercise you can do in external rotation, the better it seems, on average.

平均而言，外旋运动越多，效果就越好。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I'd love to chat with you just a little bit more about biomechanics, and this is a personal thing that, again, your content really helped solve for me.

我很想和你多聊一点关于生物力学的事情，这是一件个人的事情，你的内容再次真正帮助我解决了问题。

One is I thought I had lower back pain, that I had sciatica so badly that on a few trips, work trips years ago when I was doing a lot more international travel, I mean, it was hard to stand up sometimes.

一是我以为我有腰痛，我的坐骨神经痛非常严重，以至于在几年前的几次旅行中，当我进行更多的国际旅行时，我的意思是，有时很难站起来。

I mean, excruciating pain.

我的意思是，极度的痛苦。

I didn't want to take medication.

我不想吃药。

I didn't want to do back surgery.

我不想做背部手术。

In the end, it turns out it wasn't a back injury at all.

最后，事实证明这根本不是背部受伤。

One of the things that helped fix it was this just learning about this thing called the medial glute.

帮助解决这个问题的一件事就是了解这个叫做内侧臀肌的东西。

You had a video that said "Fix back pain," and then you quite accurately say that some back pain isn't really about the back at all and had me do an exercise, or allowed me to try an exercise where I lay on my side, and I was essentially pointing my toe down, a top toe down, almost like pointing a toe down, and then would slowly lift the leg up while pointing the toe down.

你有一个视频说“修复背部疼痛”，然后你非常准确地说，有些背部疼痛根本不是背部的问题，让我做一个练习，或者让我尝试侧躺的练习，我基本上是脚趾朝下，顶部脚趾朝下，几乎就像脚趾朝下，然后慢慢抬起腿，同时脚趾朝下。

Maybe I got it incorrect or-

也许我理解错了或者-

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

No, you got it.

不，你明白了。

No.

不。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And then holding that, and there's a muscle that sits at the top of the glute.

然后按住它，臀肌顶部就会有一块肌肉。

It peeks out every once in a while.

它每隔一段时间就会露出来。

You can feel it there with your thumb, which is ...

你可以用拇指感觉到它，这是......

I think you had push back on it a bit, creating that mind-muscle link again.

我认为你已经稍微推迟了它，再次建立了思维与肌肉的联系。

And there with proprioception, the actual feeling of a muscle literally with a limb, we know based on the neural circuits for movement that that enhances the contractile ability of a muscle.

本体感觉，即肌肉与肢体的实际感觉，我们根据运动的神经回路知道，这可以增强肌肉的收缩能力。

So if you touch your bicep, you literally can contract it more strongly, and this makes total sense based on neuromuscular physiology.

因此，如果你触摸你的二头肌，你实际上可以更强烈地收缩它，这根据神经肌肉生理学是完全有道理的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So you had me do that repeatedly, and I started doing that in my hotel room and the pain started to disappear, and then it came back again in the afternoon, so I did it again in the afternoon.

所以你让我反复这样做，我开始在酒店房间这样做，疼痛开始消失，然后下午又回来了，所以我下午又做了一次。

So this is something I did for three or four days, and lo and behold, my back pain is gone.

我就这样做了三四天，你瞧，我的背痛消失了。

I handed this off to my father because he, like me, has a slightly lower right shoulder.

我把这个交给了我父亲，因为他和我一样，右肩略低。

I think our gait is probably thrown off by this.

我想我们的步态可能因此而混乱。

It's probably a genetic thing.

这可能是遗传的事情。

Who knows?

谁知道？

He handed it off to somebody.

他把它交给了某人。

It turns out that we don't suffer from back pain, and in fact now I don't suffer from any pain because I was doing this exercise, which I think is helping my medial glute.

事实证明，我们没有背痛，事实上现在我也没有感到任何疼痛，因为我正在做这个练习，我认为这对我的臀内侧有帮助。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Two reasons why I raised this.

我提出这个问题有两个原因。

One, I know a lot of guys who have this right side sciatica, because people keep the wallet there is one idea, or left side sciatica.

一，我知道很多人都有右侧坐骨神经痛，因为人们有一个想法，那就是左侧坐骨神经痛。

There are a lot of people, male and female, who think they have back pain when they don't actually have back pain.

有很多人，无论男性还是女性，都认为自己有背痛，但实际上并没有背痛。

The other thing is that ...

另一件事是……

is about a general question about biomechanics or statement about biomechanics.

是关于生物力学的一般问题或关于生物力学的陈述。

I had a feeling that a lot of what people think is back pain or knee pain or neck pain or headache or shoulder pain is actually the consequence of something that's happening above or below that site of pain.

我有一种感觉，很多人认为的背痛、膝盖疼痛、颈部疼痛、头痛或肩膀疼痛，实际上是疼痛部位上方或下方发生的事情的结果。

This is a whole landscape of stuff related to PT and recovery and pain management, but maybe if you just educate us a bit on this and why this works.

这是与 PT、恢复和疼痛管理相关的整个内容，但也许如果您只是教育我们一些关于这一点以及为什么它有效的话。

What is the medial glute?

什么是臀肌内侧？

Why did it make my so-called back pain disappear?

为什么它让我所谓的背痛消失了呢？

How should people think about pain?

人们应该如何看待疼痛？

I'd like to use this as a segue to get into a little bit deeper discussion about pain and recovery.

我想以此为契机，对疼痛和恢复进行更深入的讨论。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Sure.

当然。

So this is definitely a big cornucopia of PT stuff here, and this is what I love.

所以这绝对是 PT 内容的一大聚宝盆，这也是我喜欢的。

So first of all, that video, it's my proudest video that I have, and the reason being is that it's helped so many people.

首先，那个视频是我最自豪的视频，原因是它帮助了很多人。

We get comments on that video every day.

我们每天都会收到对该视频的评论。

I don't even know how many views it's got now, 30-some-odd million.

我也不知道现在有多少浏览量，三十多万。

There's a lot.

有很多。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We will link to it in our show notes.

我们将在演出笔记中链接到它。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

There's a lot of views.

有很多观点。

Quite honestly, it was a little bit of an afterthought video in terms of its origin.

老实说，就其起源而言，这是一个事后添加的视频。

I think that day maybe Jesse was having some problems or something like that, a little bit of low back pain.

我想那天杰西可能遇到了一些问题或类似的问题，有点腰痛。

I showed him and it helped right away.

我向他展示了它，立刻就有了帮助。

I was like, "Well, we can make a video on it because this will help people," not everybody.

我当时想，“好吧，我们可以制作一个视频，因为这会帮助人们，”而不是所有人。

If you have a real disc problem, it's not going to help because you're not changing the structural problem that's there.

如果您确实遇到了光盘问题，那么它不会有帮助，因为您没有改变那里的结构问题。

But as you said, a lot of people don't.

但正如你所说，很多人不这么认为。

Even in disc issues, a lot of them are nonoperative, so you'd want to try these things first.

即使在光盘问题中，很多问题也不起作用，因此您需要首先尝试这些方法。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

As far as what you've experienced, sometimes as that glute medius really tightens down, and that's again from poor biomechanics up and down the kinetic chain.

就您所经历的情况而言，有时臀中肌确实收紧，这又是由于动力链上下的生物力学不佳所致。

It can actually press on the sciatic nerve and give you what they call a "pseudo sciatica," where it's not like you're making it up, it's not like you're not feeling that pain over that same sciatic distribution, but it's not caused from a disc.

它实际上会压迫坐骨神经，给你带来所谓的“假性坐骨神经痛”，这并不是你编造的，也不是说你在相同的坐骨神经分布上没有感觉到疼痛，但它不是由椎间盘引起的。

It's not caused from something mechanical there.

这不是由那里的机械原因引起的。

It's caused by the fact that this glute medius has posturely become a problem for you or weak because you don't train it, and you need to address it.

这是因为臀中肌在姿势上已经成为你的问题或弱者，因为你没有训练它，你需要解决它。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

So not unlike any other muscle in the body, there are common trigger points and common areas where the muscle will become tightened or painful or spasm, and you can basically apply pressure to these areas and then thread that muscle through the pressure by pushing down through there and then contracting the muscle, which is why you go through that action of ...

因此，与身体中的任何其他肌肉不同，存在常见的触发点和常见区域，肌肉会在这些区域变得紧绷或疼痛或痉挛，您基本上可以向这些区域施加压力，然后通过向下推压该区域然后收缩肌肉来使该肌肉承受压力，这就是为什么您要进行以下动作的原因...

I think we call it "toe stabber," but stabbing down and lifting up and stabbing down and lifting up, taking that glute medius through its function, so that it's basically working underneath the downward pressure of the finger, and that tends to help you to almost knead out what might be that trigger point.

我想我们称之为“脚趾刺击”，但是向下刺刺，向上刺刺，向上刺刺，然后向上刺伤，通过其功能发挥臀中肌的作用，这样它基本上是在手指向下的压力下工作的，这往往会帮助你几乎揉捏出可能是触发点的地方。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

That's why people can see immediate relief there, because once the trigger point lets go, it feels like ...

这就是为什么人们可以立即看到缓解，因为一旦触发点松开，感觉就像......

And that's what the comments are on that video.

这就是该视频的评论。

"My God, literally, I couldn't walk.

“天哪，从字面上看，我无法行走。

I've been on my hotel floor.

我一直在酒店楼层。

I did this and I'm fixed." Meanwhile, then, it could come back because your body is like, "Well, I like being more like this.

我做到了，我就解决了。”与此同时，它可能会回来，因为你的身体会说，“好吧，我更喜欢这样。

This is how I've been ingrained to be." So it might come back, but then when you do another round of it and another round of it, and then finally it starts to say, "All right.

这就是我根深蒂固的样子。”所以它可能会回来，但是当你再做一轮又一轮时，最后它开始说：“好吧。

I'm not going to do that anymore." It eases up and you can relieve yourself of those trigger points.

我不会再这样做了。”它会缓解，您可以摆脱这些触发点。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

You can do that up and down the back.

你可以在背部上下做这个动作。

There's other people that get that in that inside their shoulder blade, that same type of cramping in another area.

还有其他人的肩胛骨内部也有这种情况，另一个部位也有同样类型的痉挛。

But once that takes place, well, then the job that I think people have is become educated that the glute medius is different than the glute maximus.

但一旦发生这种情况，那么我认为人们要做的工作就是接受教育，了解臀中肌与臀大肌的不同。

Their functions are different.

它们的功能不同。

You have to work on not just extending the hip, but also abduction of the hip, external rotation of the hip.

你不仅要努力伸展髋部，还要努力外展髋部、外旋髋部。

Same thing as in the shoulder.

和肩膀上的一样。

This actually segues nicely into the whole concept you were talking about.

这实际上很好地融入了您所讨论的整个概念。

The body is like a mirror image.

身体就像一面镜子。

The hip is like the shoulder.

臀部就像肩膀一样。

The ankle is the wrist.

脚踝就是手腕。

The foot is the hand.

脚就是手。

The knee is the elbow.

膝盖就是肘部。

There are two hinge joints.

有两个铰链接头。

They function that way.

他们就是这样运作的。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Well, with the shoulder, you've got that mobility that comes from having all that freedom of motion, but the stability is lacking.

嗯，对于肩膀来说，你拥有来自运动自由度的灵活性，但缺乏稳定性。

Well, the same thing with the hip.

嗯，臀部也是一样。

You've got mobility, but if you don't fully stabilize it by training all of the muscles of the hip, and if you don't strengthen the external rotation of the hip, then you're going to have issues.

你有活动能力，但如果你没有通过训练臀部的所有肌肉来完全稳定它，如果你没有加强臀部的外旋，那么你就会遇到问题。

It's not biomechanically going to work the same way.

从生物力学角度来说，它的工作原理并不相同。

If you think of the body as a series of bands pulling in different directions at different levels of tension, you're being pulled into one direction or the other just by the balance of tension from one weak area to one dominantly tight area.

如果您将身体视为一系列以不同张力水平向不同方向拉动的带子，那么您只是通过从一个薄弱区域到一个主要紧张区域的张力平衡而被拉向一个方向或另一个方向。

You need to make sure that you can balance this out in order to eliminate some of the adaptations and compensations that happen.

您需要确保能够平衡这一点，以消除发生的一些适应和补偿。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

So, what I say when we look at the body as a whole, most often wherever you're feeling the pain is absolutely not to blame.

所以，当我们从整体上看身体时，我所说的，通常是你感到疼痛的地方，绝对不是罪魁祸首。

That's not to blame.

这不应该受到责备。

It is somewhere above or below, as you hinted at, you're talking about ...

正如您所暗示的，它位于上方或下方的某个地方，您正在谈论......

The knee is my favorite example of it.

膝盖是我最喜欢的例子。

Whenever you have knee pain, patella tendonitis — which I have forever, I've had bad cases of patella tendonitis where squatting is very difficult for me, — it's not the knee.

每当你膝盖疼痛、髌腱炎——我一直都有这种病，我有过严重的髌腱炎病例，蹲下对我来说非常困难——那不是膝盖的问题。

The knee is literally a hinge joint that ...

膝盖实际上是一个铰链关节，...

There's minor rotation capabilities in the knee, but it's a hinge joint, and it's being impacted by the hip and the ankle and the foot — as I said before, how critical the foot is.

膝盖有轻微的旋转能力，但它是一个铰链关节，它受到臀部、脚踝和脚的影响——正如我之前所说，脚是多么重要。

If you thought of the knee being the middle of a train track, where the femur down your thigh and your shin down below your knee were the train track, what would happen if the foot collapses at the bottom?

如果你认为膝盖是火车轨道的中间，大腿下方的股骨和膝盖下方的小腿就是火车轨道，那么如果脚在底部塌陷会发生什么？

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

All of a sudden that train track on the bottom gets torqued just a little bit.

突然，底部的火车轨道稍微扭转了一点。

Well, who's going to feel that the most?

那么，谁的感受最深呢？

The area where it's torquing, which is at the knee.

扭转的区域，即膝盖处。

So the stresses are going to be felt there.

所以那里会感受到压力。

Meanwhile, the problem is the foot, or the problem is the ankle.

同时，问题出在脚上，或者问题出在脚踝上。

People that are chronic ankle sprainers are almost always going to wind up having back pain because the ankle sprain causes weakness and maladaptations in the ankle that then get connected through the chain, because now once I distort the ankle and the shin, now the knee is trying to maintain its ability to hinge smoothly, so it torques on the femur to do that.

慢性踝关节扭伤者几乎总是会出现背痛，因为踝关节扭伤会导致踝关节无力和适应不良，然后通过链条连接起来，因为现在一旦我扭曲了踝关节和胫骨，现在膝盖就会试图保持其平稳铰接的能力，因此它会扭转股骨来做到这一点。

Well, the femur is now inside the hip joint pulling on the pelvis, and the pelvis is out of whack.

好吧，股骨现在位于髋关节内部，拉动骨盆，而骨盆已经不正常了。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

So, it really is fascinating.

所以，这确实很令人着迷。

It's one of my favorite things about how the body works is how interconnected it is and how one little thing somewhere causes repercussion somewhere else.

关于身体如何运作，我最喜欢的事情之一是它是如何相互关联的，以及某个地方的一件小事如何在其他地方引起反响。

The easiest way to find out what your problem is is to say, "Okay.

找出问题所在的最简单方法就是说：“好吧。

I know where my symptom is, but I got to find someone who can help me find the source somewhere else," because it is going to be usually either above or below, mostly usually below because it usually translates up the kinetic chain, but usually it's going to be below where the real source is.

我知道我的症状在哪里，但我必须找到一个可以帮助我在其他地方找到根源的人，”因为它通常会在上方或下方，大多数通常在下方，因为它通常会向上平移动力链，但通常会在真正的根源所在的下方。

So people with low back pain usually have hip issues, weaknesses, tightnesses, flexibility issues.

因此，患有腰痛的人通常会出现臀部问题、无力、紧绷、灵活性问题。

It's almost always below.

它几乎总是在下面。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

When you get into really high performance athletics though, it almost works the other way, where we have pitchers who can't ...

然而，当你进入真正高性能的田径运动时，它几乎会以相反的方式起作用，我们的投手不能......

I mean, I'm always fascinated by guys that have Tommy John issues in their elbow, right?

我的意思是，我总是对肘部有汤米约翰问题的人着迷，对吧？

Pitchers, if you can't externally rotate the shoulder that we talked about, again, the ability to get your shoulder back into external rotation, well, your arm has to get to a certain position for release of the baseball.

投手，如果你不能像我们谈到的那样外旋肩膀，那么，让你的肩膀恢复外旋的能力，那么，你的手臂必须到达某个位置才能释放棒球。

If it can't get there because you can't externally rotate the shoulder to get there, then the elbow has to torque more in order to allow the arm to get back further, and it will try to take some of that motion from a joint that's not really ...

如果它无法到达那里，因为你无法外部旋转肩膀来到达那里，那么肘部必须施加更大的扭矩，以便让手臂进一步向后移动，并且它会尝试从实际上不是的关节中获取一些运动......

Again, another ...

又来了，又一个……

the hinge joint, really capable of doing that, so it starts to stress that medial elbow ligament to get a little bit further back because the shoulder's not working, and that just ultimately places strain on the elbow.

铰链关节确实有能力做到这一点，因此它开始向肘部内侧韧带施加压力，使其向后移动一点，因为肩膀无法正常工作，这最终会给肘部带来压力。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

So when you see a guy that has pain that floats around, a pitcher, that floats around their arm, all of that is this balance of compensation.

因此，当你看到一个人的手臂上漂浮着疼痛时，所有这些都是补偿的平衡。

Once his elbow starts hurting, then he can't get the range from the elbow so he tries to dig a little bit further back into external rotation, and then the rotator cuff gets inflamed.

一旦他的肘部开始疼痛，他就无法从肘部获得范围，因此他试图进一步向后外旋，然后肩袖就会发炎。

And then he feels that's inflamed.

然后他感觉那处发炎了。

By the way, during that time period, it takes some of the strain off the elbows, so the elbow feels better.

顺便说一句，在这段时间里，它减轻了肘部的一些压力，因此肘部感觉更好。

Then he decides, "Okay.

然后他决定：“好吧。

Now, I got the external rotation, but I'm getting too much of that.

现在，我得到了外轮换，但我得到的太多了。

So now I start straightening the elbow again," and then it keeps going through this cycle.

所以现在我又开始伸直肘部，”然后就一直这样循环下去。

So your body is very smart, and it's going to compensate every single time.

所以你的身体非常聪明，它每次都会进行补偿。

It's going to find the compensation, but there's no guarantee that that compensation doesn't leave you with a whole host of other issues.

它会找到补偿，但不能保证补偿不会给你带来一大堆其他问题。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, it's fascinating.

是的，这很有趣。

In another lifetime, I would've gone and been a PT, although it sounds like the community among PTs online is an issue.

在另一生中，我可能会成为一名 PT，尽管听起来 PT 之间的在线社区是一个问题。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

I don't know what ...

我不知道什么...

Listen, we're good people, but it's like-

听着，我们是好人，但就像-

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, scientists and neuroscientists can get into pretty intense battles.

是的，科学家和神经科学家可能会陷入相当激烈的战斗。

Coming from the academic community, the etiquette is so different online because I always say, I think in person, people would probably behave a bit differently.

来自学术界，网上的礼仪是如此不同，因为我总是说，我认为面对面时，人们的行为可能会有点不同。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

They shake your hand and say hello.

他们与你握手并打招呼。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, they shake your hand and say hello.

是的，他们会和你握手并打招呼。

Look, I'll just be very direct about this, there are a lot of people online for whom their only content is pointing out the misunderstandings or alleged flaws of other people, or it's like the bulk of their identity, which to me is a sad existence, but there's always more to gain by thinking about what's possible and what's new and what's good, but to each their own demise — or win.

听着，我对此会非常直接，网上有很多人，他们唯一的内容就是指出其他人的误解或所谓的缺陷，或者就像他们的身份的大部分，这对我来说是一个悲伤的存在，但通过思考什么是可能的、什么是新的、什么是好的，总会有更多的收获，但对每个人来说都是自己的灭亡——或者胜利。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

I mean, questioning what's out there, it's healthy.

我的意思是，质疑外面的东西，它是健康的。

It's normal.

这很正常。

It's great.

这很棒。

It actually sparks conversation.

它实际上引发了对话。

But as you said, some people's existence is solely to find things to nag about and not actually with the goal being to advance anything, but rather just to ...

但正如你所说，有些人的存在只是为了找事来唠叨，其实并不是为了推动什么，而是为了……

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah.

是的。

In the world of science, being skeptical but not cynical is encouraged.

在科学世界中，鼓励怀疑但不愤世嫉俗。

But I always say that the longer that somebody's in a career path, it's certainly in science or medicine, and they realize how hard it is to do various studies, once they publish a few studies, generally they get a better understanding of how the various things are done.

但我总是说，一个人在职业道路上的时间越长，肯定是在科学或医学领域，他们意识到做各种研究是多么困难，一旦他们发表了一些研究，通常他们会更好地理解各种事情是如何完成的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In any case, another along the lines of pain and pain relief and misunderstandings about the origins of pain in the body, one of the great tools that I picked up from your content, which has benefitted, I know, a huge number of people is ...

无论如何，另一个关于疼痛和疼痛缓解以及对身体疼痛起源的误解的内容，是我从您的内容中学到的伟大工具之一，我知道，它使很多人受益......

I think I used to hold weights sometimes in the tips of my fingers as opposed to in the meat of the palm of my hands, and I had elbow pain.

我想我过去有时会用指尖而不是手掌来握住重物，而且我有肘部疼痛。

I felt it most on tricep exercises and pushing exercises, and I thought I was doing those exercises wrong.

我在三头肌练习和推力练习中感受最深，我认为我做这些练习是错误的。

Turns out toward the end of my pull-ups or my bicep work, I was letting the weight or the bar drift into my fingertips, and the mere shift to making sure that my knuckles were well over the bar or that the weight was really in the meat of my palms has completely ameliorated that for reasons that you point out, and maybe you could just share with us why that is.

事实证明，在我的引体向上或我的二头肌训练结束时，我让重量或杠铃漂移到我的指尖，仅仅转移到确保我的指关节远远超过杠铃或重量确实在我的手掌上就已经完全改善了，原因你指出了，也许你可以与我们分享为什么会这样。

You have this finger pull exercise.

你有这个手指拉动练习。

Usually, when someone says, "Pull my finger," it's like a bad middle school or elementary school joke, but you're-

通常，当有人说“拉我的手指”时，这就像一个糟糕的中学或小学笑话，但你-

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Well, this, we'll say push your finger.

好吧，这个，我们会说推动你的手指。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Right.

对。

Right.

正确的。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Yeah.

是的。

This is fascinating, because it just shows again how intricate the body is and how responsive or over-responsive it can be to something so little.

这很有趣，因为它再次表明了身体是多么复杂，以及它对如此微小的东西有多么敏感或过度敏感。

What you're talking about is that when you grip a bar, whether it be through a curl or whether it be through ...

你所说的是，当你握住杠铃时，无论是通过弯举还是通过......

And this is mostly pulling exercises, because the tendency for the bar is going to be to fall out of your hand, not like with the pushing exercise where it's like you're pushing your hand into the bar on a bench press, say.

这主要是拉练习，因为杠铃很容易从你的手中掉下来，而不是像推练习那样，就像你在卧推上将手推入杠铃一样。

That bar can drift just by gravity doing its thing or fatigue of the hand grip strength, can start to drift further away towards the distal digits, through those last couple knuckles that we have on our hands.

该杆可以仅通过重力作用或握力疲劳而漂移，可以开始通过我们手上的最后几个指关节向远端手指漂移得更远。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Though our hand can still hold it there, the muscles are not equipped to handle those types of loads, and that can start at a very, I'm not going to say light, but it could start at dumbbell weight of 40 pounds, 30 pounds, even 25 pounds or something, depending upon the overall strength levels.

虽然我们的手仍然可以握住它，但肌肉没有能力处理这些类型的负载，而且可以从非常轻的重量开始，我不会说很轻，但它可以从 40 磅、30 磅、甚至 25 磅或其他重量的哑铃开始，具体取决于整体力量水平。

But then when you start to apply it to something like your body weight with a chin-up, because that's natural for the bar to somewhat float down towards your fingertips, and it actually is a little bit easier to perform the exercise with that fall script little hook grip at the end because you're not going to engage the forearms into the exercise.

但是，当你开始用引体向上将其应用到你的体重之类的东西时，因为杠铃会自然地向下浮动到你的指尖，而且实际上在最后用秋天脚本的小钩握法进行练习会更容易一些，因为你不会让前臂参与练习。

You're not going to start pulling down, but at the same-

你不会开始下拉，但同时-

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

You're not going to start pulling down.

你不会开始下拉。

But at the same time, while it could help you to perform them better by getting the back more activated, if you have weakness in these muscles, because it's not one of those upright row-type things where I think this is happening to everybody.

但与此同时，虽然它可以通过让背部更加活跃来帮助你更好地完成这些动作，但如果你的这些肌肉无力，因为我认为这不是每个人都会发生的直立划船类型的事情之一。

This is happening to people that have these inherent weaknesses in these muscles or haven't done enough of the gripping in the meat of the hand for long enough.

这种情况发生在那些肌肉有这些固有弱点的人身上，或者没有足够长的时间抓握手部的肉的人身上。

But it starts to put that stress on these muscles that are ill-equipped to handle this.

但它开始给这些没有能力处理这个问题的肌肉带来压力。

And it's particularly on that fourth finger, which is part of the muscle we call the FDS, the flexor digitorum, that is just too much for it to handle.

特别是在无名指上，它是我们称为 FDS（指屈肌）的肌肉的一部分，它无法处理太多的东西。

And that comes all the way down and meets right at the medial elbow, right on that spot that you can say feels like someone's knifing you right in the middle, in that medial elbow.

它一直向下，在内侧肘部相遇，就在那个地方，你可以说感觉就像有人在中间，在内侧肘部刀割你。

And medial epicondylitis, or they call it golfer's elbow, is something that a lot of us deal with in the gym.

内上髁炎，或者他们称之为高尔夫球手肘，是我们很多人在健身房遇到的问题。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

It's one of the most common inflammatory conditions people get from the gym.

这是人们在健身房中最常见的炎症之一。

And it all comes from this positioning of the dumbbell or barbell or hand on a pull-up bar over time.

这一切都来自于哑铃或杠铃或手在引体向上杆上随着时间的推移的定位。

So the easiest thing to do is just grip deeper, so that what you're doing is you're using more leverage from the palm to encapsulate the bar or the dumbbell or whatever.

所以最简单的事情就是握得更深，这样你所做的就是利用手掌的更多杠杆作用来包住杠铃或哑铃或其他东西。

And you're not putting that pressure really distally right on that last digit, because that's where that FDS muscle is most strained.

而且你并没有将压力真正施加在最后一个数字上，因为那是 FDS 肌肉最紧张的地方。

So you're just almost eliminating that from the equation, and it's one of those exercises that the load can exceed its capacity pretty quickly so that maybe it's only capable of handling 30 pounds.

所以你几乎从等式中消除了这一点，这是负载可能很快超过其容量的练习之一，因此也许它只能承受 30 磅的重量。

And then when you're doing a chin-up and it drifts so far that it's now, let's say you're a 200-pound guy, you've got let's say a hundred pounds through one arm and a hundred pounds ...

然后，当你做引体向上时，它会漂移到现在，假设你是一个 200 磅的人，你的一只手臂承受了 100 磅，还有 100 磅......

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

This is simplified math that obviously is offset by other muscles, but a hundred pounds to one arm, a hundred pounds to the other arm.

这是简化的数学，显然被其他肌肉抵消了，但一只手臂一百磅，另一只手臂一百磅。

A hundred pounds off of a muscle that can handle 30, it's not going to take many repetitions to strain it.

一块可以承受 30 磅重量的肌肉减掉 100 磅，不需要多次重复就能拉紧它。

And you're going to feel that maybe by the time that sets over or certainly by the time that workout's over, or the next day you wake up and you've got that notable stabbing pain.

你可能会感觉到，也许到了锻炼结束的时候，或者肯定是到锻炼结束的时候，或者第二天你醒来的时候，你就会感到明显的刺痛。

Whenever someone feels that, the best thing would be to determine, "Okay, what exercises was I doing that were pulling and where the bar could've drifted deeper, further from the meat of my palm into my fingers," and figure out a way to deepen that grip.

每当有人有这种感觉时，最好的办法就是确定，“好吧，我做了哪些拉力练习，杠铃在哪里可以移得更深，从我的手掌到手指更远”，然后找出一种方法来加深这种握力。

When that happens though, the best thing to do with most of these inflammatory conditions is not do any of that stuff for a little while.

然而，当这种情况发生时，针对大多数炎症状况，最好的办法就是暂时不要做任何这些事情。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Not ever, just for a little while.

从来没有，只是一小会儿。

There's always things that you can do around it.

围绕它你总是可以做一些事情。

I'm not saying, ever do I say don't go to the gym or don't find something you can do.

我并不是说，我从来没有说过不要去健身房或者找不到你可以做的事情。

But I'm saying that particular exercise that you feel the pain on while you're doing it, never a smart idea to do that exercise when it's inflamed.

但我说的是那种你在做的时候会感到疼痛的特定运动，在发炎的时候做这种运动绝不是一个明智的主意。

If you are doing exercise and it hurts, you probably shouldn't do the exercise because another reason for the variability of exercise is there's so many other options that you can do that will train similar muscles or even the same motion and not cause that stress.

如果你正在做运动并且感到疼痛，你可能不应该做这个运动，因为运动变化的另一个原因是你可以做很多其他的选择，这些选择可以训练类似的肌肉甚至相同的动作，而不会造成压力。

So I mean a cable curl would be much easier to do that on than let's say a chin-up where you don't have the control over the weight like you do by moving a pin on a stack.

所以我的意思是，绳索弯举比引体向上要容易得多，在引体向上中你无法像通过移动木桩上的针那样控制重量。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

So I think that is a common thing that people find, and the best thing to do is just figure out how deep are you gripping that bar.

所以我认为这是人们发现的常见现象，最好的办法就是弄清楚你把那根杠握得有多深。

You're going to find that, "Oh, my God, I didn't realize that because it was just," even though you might start a set in a good position and then it drifts away as you go.

你会发现，“哦，天哪，我没有意识到这一点，因为这只是，”即使你可能以一个好的位置开始一组，然后随着你的走，它会逐渐消失。

PART 3 OF 5 ENDS Andrew Huberman:

第 3 部分（共 5 部分）结束 Andrew Huberman：

I think that's what was happening to me, and I'm very conscious of this now, and again for me, I haven't had this elbow pain at all.

我想这就是发生在我身上的事情，我现在非常意识到这一点，对我来说，我根本没有肘部疼痛。

Very fortunate.

非常幸运。

So again, debt of gratitude to you.

再次感谢您。

Never ...

从来没有...

I thought there was something wrong in my elbow basically, and I thought maybe it was tennis elbow.

我以为我的肘部基本上出了问题，我想可能是网球肘。

I don't even play tennis.

我什至不打网球。

So there you go.

所以就这样吧。

Other aspects of recovery and variables for recovery.

恢复的其他方面和恢复的变量。

I think you and I both put out content about the use of cold and I think we can summarize it by saying, "Yeah, it does seem like cold water immersion immediately after hypertrophy or strength workouts might be a problem, but a cold shower is probably not a problem." What about heat?

我想你和我都发布了关于使用冷水的内容，我想我们可以这样总结：“是的，在肌肉肥大或力量训练后立即浸泡冷水确实可能是一个问题，但冷水淋浴可能不是问题。”热度怎么样？

Do you personally use heat and cold saunas?

您个人使用热桑拿和冷桑拿吗？

Hot baths, hot compresses, and by "you" I mean you personally and athletes that you coach or people that you coach.

洗热水澡，热敷，“你”是指你个人和你教练的运动员或你教练的人。

What are your thoughts on the use of heat and/or cold?

您对使用热和/或冷有什么看法？

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Well I think it might just be an inherited practice from the days of trainers since Babe Ruth.

嗯，我认为这可能只是自贝比·鲁斯以来教练时代继承下来的做法。

But in baseball we used a lot of cold following performance just because the idea would be, there is some, especially pitchers, there is some inflammation that is abnormal.

但在棒球运动中，我们使用了很多冷跟随表现，只是因为我们的想法是，有一些，特别是投手，有一些不正常的炎症。

The arm is not really designed to do what they do, especially at the speed that they move it and everything else.

手臂的设计并不是为了做他们所做的事情，尤其是他们移动手臂和其他东西的速度。

So we would use ice as a pretty standard practice after that.

所以之后我们会使用冰作为相当标准的做法。

But not a lot of heat, and, of course, from the recovery or the healing aspect, that actually becomes rather personal preference they've found now.

但热量并不多，当然，从恢复或治疗方面来看，这实际上变成了他们现在发现的个人偏好。

After let's say the first 12 to 24 hours, where you're really trying to control inflammation of you know what might be an injury, but then it can kind of shift the personal preference because the heat can bring blood to the area also and then the cold has its sort anti-inflammatory effects.

比方说，在最初的 12 到 24 小时之后，你会真正尝试控制炎症，你知道什么可能会造成伤害，但随后它可能会改变个人偏好，因为热量也会将血液带到该区域，然后寒冷会产生某种抗炎作用。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

So there's a balance between which one's working better for you.

因此，需要在哪一个更适合您之间进行权衡。

So there's really no standard anymore for heat or cold in that way.

因此，对于热或冷来说，实际上已经没有标准了。

But from a standpoint of postworkout healthy status, I haven't used much heat or cold in terms of what we do.

但从锻炼后健康状况的角度来看，我在训练中并没有使用太多的热或冷。

We cover the topic of the cold showers and to try to dispel the myth of even people saying that there's giant testosterone releases and all kinds of stuff that, listen, we hear all kinds of things because people want, I think, the idea of just turning the water cold and being in it for 30 seconds.

我们讨论了冷水淋浴的话题，并试图消除人们的误解，甚至有人说冷水淋浴会释放大量睾丸激素和各种各样的东西，听着，我们听到各种各样的东西，因为我认为，人们想要的只是把水变冷，然后在里面呆 30 秒。

And then all of a sudden magically growing three times your size is intriguing for a lot of people and that's why they ask these questions because they're like, well that would be a hell of a lot easier than going to the gym and training hard.

然后突然间神奇地长到你的三倍，这对很多人来说都很有趣，这就是为什么他们会问这些问题，因为他们会想，这比去健身房努力训练要容易得多。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

But I'm always fascinated by some of the stuff that you talked about.

但我总是对你谈论的一些东西很着迷。

In fact, we started to talk about some of the stuff in terms of cooling and what it can do on performance, and that was, there's some untapped territory there that I think you're finding out about.

事实上，我们开始讨论冷却方面的一些内容以及它对性能的影响，也就是说，我认为您正在发现一些尚未开发的领域。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What would be fun would be to bring the CoolMitt technology from Stanford.

有趣的是引进斯坦福大学的 CoolMitt 技术。

This is Craig Heller — my colleague Craig Heller's lab at Stanford's done really important and amazing work in this area, but then had moved on to some other things.

这是克雷格·海勒（Craig Heller）——我的同事克雷格·海勒（Craig Heller）在斯坦福大学的实验室在这一领域做了非常重要且令人惊叹的工作，但后来转向了其他一些事情。

He's also working on Down's syndrome, and he works on a number of other really important topics that scientists often do.

他还致力于研究唐氏综合症，并且致力于科学家经常从事的许多其他非常重要的主题。

But I have access to this CoolMitt technology, no relationship to the company, by the way.

但顺便说一句，我可以使用 CoolMitt 技术，与该公司没有任何关系。

Would love to come out to your facility and we can do the blind-type studies.

很乐意来到您的工厂，我们可以进行盲式研究。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Like the blue blocker test.

就像蓝色阻滞剂测试一样。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Exactly, exactly.

完全正确。

And see how that goes with somebody as advanced trained as you, that's probably the best thing to do.

看看像你这样受过高级训练的人会怎样，这可能是最好的选择。

So content for the future.

所以对未来感到满意。

Yeah, I think heat and cold are kind of staples in the PT world, and it does seem like people use them slightly differently, but they are kind of the macronutrients of recovery there along with sleep.

是的，我认为热和冷是物理疗法世界中的主要元素，人们对它们的使用似乎确实略有不同，但它们是与睡眠一起恢复的大量营养素。

I do have a question about precision of record keeping.

我确实对记录保存的准确性有疑问。

Do you keep a training journal?

你保留培训日记吗？

Do you recommend people keep training journals?

您建议人们保留培训日记吗？

Are you neurotically fixed to cadence of movement, and do you have a buzzer going off for when it's 90 seconds rest?

您是否神经质地固定在运动节奏上，并且在 90 秒休息时蜂鸣器会响吗？

Is it 90 seconds rest.

是休息90秒吗？

I confess I have my slow workouts and my faster workouts, and they scale with whether or not I'm training heavier with longer rests.

我承认我有慢速训练和快速训练，它们的大小取决于我是否进行更重的训练和更长的休息时间。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Or whether or not maybe midway through a workout I'll shift over to doing higher repetition, lower rest.

或者，无论是否在锻炼过程中，我都会转向进行更高的重复次数、更少的休息。

This is kind of my crude way of keeping time, but I'm not ...

这是我计时的一种粗暴方式，但我不...

Will be just to watch the clock, but I'm not neurotically fixed to the buzzer, nor am I on social media during my workouts.

只是为了看时钟，但我不会神经质地盯着蜂鸣器，也不会在锻炼期间使用社交媒体。

Which is actually a way to really improve workouts is to just not be on social media.

实际上，真正改善锻炼的一种方法就是不上社交媒体。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

I can't claim that I'm not guilty of that.

我不能说我对此没有罪。

Sometimes I am on social media but sometimes I'm trying to post something.

有时我在社交媒体上，但有时我会尝试发布一些东西。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, that's different.

嗯，那是不同的。

It's your profession.

这是你的职业。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

But I mean, I'm not necessarily chained to some sort of protocol in terms of how I do ...

但我的意思是，就我的行为而言，我不一定受某种协议的束缚......

I think by this point I've been doing this a long time, and not only is it something that I've done for a long time, but it's a passion of mine, something I really enjoy.

我想到目前为止我已经做了很长时间了，这不仅是我做了很长时间的事情，而且是我的热情，我真正喜欢的事情。

So I probably inherently have the ability to stick to these guidelines in terms of rest time, to know what I lifted even six months ago on a lift and how it felt without journaling it.

因此，我可能天生就有能力在休息时间方面遵守这些准则，了解六个月前我在电梯上举起的东西以及感觉如何，而无需记录下来。

But I recognize the value it has to a lot of people.

但我认识到它对很多人的价值。

It goes back to that whole, my muscle connection idea that we talked about in the beginning.

这可以追溯到我们一开始讨论的整个肌肉连接的想法。

There's a lack of awareness for all aspects of training, and especially maybe it isn't your interest level.

对培训的各个方面都缺乏认识，尤其可能不是你的兴趣水平。

We're talking, you and I, from a position of interest, this is what we do.

你和我，我们从利益的角度进行讨论，这就是我们所做的。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

We enjoy just how our bodies work and understanding how they work.

我们享受我们的身体如何运作并了解它们如何运作。

Some people don't care, they just want the end result.

有些人不在乎，他们只想要最终的结果。

But journaling and keeping track of that raises awareness to where like, "Oh, my God, I have been on Instagram for the last seven minutes, and I was supposed to be back at my next set in 90 seconds." There is a training effect of that.

但写日记并记录下来可以提高人们的意识，比如“哦，天哪，我在 Instagram 上呆了 7 分钟，我应该在 90 秒内回到下一组。”这是有一个训练效果的。

If you're training for a metabolic overload, you've blown that opportunity because your rest time was very important to that protocol working as it should.

如果你正在进行代谢超负荷训练，那么你就错过了这个机会，因为你的休息时间对于该方案的正常运行非常重要。

If you were training for strength, maybe the extra few minutes doesn't matter so much when you get back on the bar, you might find.

如果你正在训练力量，也许当你回到杠上时，额外的几分钟并不那么重要，你可能会发现。

I mean you might find that it's a better response for your body to rest even longer than you've been told — three, four minutes, five minutes.

我的意思是，你可能会发现，对你的身体来说，休息的时间比你被告知的时间更长（三、四分钟、五分钟）是更好的反应。

And so that way maybe it helps.

这样也许会有帮助。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

But I think that anything you can do to increase your awareness of your performance and also give yourself some objective goal.

但我认为你可以做任何事情来提高你对自己表现的认识，并给自己一些客观的目标。

Whenever we have an objective goal, it's a lot easier to actually obtain it.

每当我们有了客观目标时，实际实现它就会容易得多。

When you're just there to get a pump and you're just there to lift how you feel that day, you have to be incredibly disciplined in all other aspects of your workout in order to make that effective.

当你只是为了打气、提升当天的感觉时，你必须在锻炼的所有其他方面都严格遵守纪律，才能发挥作用。

And I've done that too.

我也这么做了。

I've actually been able to do that too.

事实上我也能做到这一点。

But again, the level of repetitions I've accumulated over the course of my life and the amount that I read about this stuff, and I think I'm able to get away with that.

但同样，我一生中积累的重复程度以及我阅读的有关这些内容的数量，我认为我能够摆脱这一点。

But I think more often than not, what I'm doing is not journaling, but journaling in my head exactly what I think people should be doing.

但我常常想，我所做的不是写日记，而是在我的脑海中记录我认为人们应该做的事情。

And that is getting a specific effect from what you're trying to do.

这就是从你正在尝试做的事情中获得特定的效果。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

It's not so haphazard, you want to get a specific effect.

这不是那么随意，你想要获得特定的效果。

Just like any other experiment that you're doing.

就像您正在进行的任何其他实验一样。

You're doing an experiment on your own body with your own weight, which to me is one of the most empowering things someone can ever do.

你正在用自己的体重在自己的身体上做实验，对我来说，这是一个人能做的最有力量的事情之一。

When they get bitten by the bug for exercising and training, and I like to use the word training rather than exercise because there's a purpose behind it, but when they get bitten by that training bug and they start to see actual changes and results, you know how empowering that is because we can't really control that many things in our life, unfortunately.

当他们被锻炼和训练的错误所困扰时，我喜欢使用训练这个词而不是锻炼，因为它背后有一个目的，但是当他们被训练错误所困扰并且他们开始看到实际的变化和结果时，你知道这是多么的赋权，因为不幸的是，我们无法真正控制生活中的很多事情。

And so there's some things that happen to us that we really wish never happened, and those are not something that we can do anything about.

因此，有些事情发生在我们身上，我们真希望永远不要发生，而这些事情我们却无能为力。

But this is one thing that we can do our best.

但这是我们可以尽力而为的一件事。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

We can't avoid disease entirely.

我们无法完全避免疾病。

We can't predict when we're going to die.

我们无法预测我们什么时候会死。

We can't do those things.

我们不能做那些事情。

But we can certainly decide to show up into the gym that day and get a workout in or go for a run or do something.

但我们当然可以决定那天去健身房锻炼身体、跑步或做点什么。

And by doing that, you're giving yourself, I think, a better chance at a higher quality of life.

我认为，通过这样做，你就为自己提供了获得更高质量生活的更好机会。

So anything you could do to increase your awareness of it and keep you on track with that is, I'm endorsing fully.

因此，我完全赞同你可以采取任何措施来提高你的意识并让你保持在正轨上。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Couldn't agree more.

完全同意。

I could not agree more.

我完全同意。

There is a topic, it's sort of a dreaded topic, but I think it's an important one.

有一个话题，这是一个令人恐惧的话题，但我认为这是一个重要的话题。

And that's the topic of nutrition.

这就是营养的话题。

And rather then get into specific meal programs, which would take hours and probably wouldn't even manage to scratch the surface even with hours, we could talk about principles around nutrition.

我们可以讨论有关营养的原则，而不是进入具体的膳食计划，这需要几个小时，甚至可能无法触及表面，即使几个小时。

What are the themes that you think people should keep in mind when thinking about how to eat generally?

您认为人们在考虑一般饮食方式时应该牢记哪些主题？

And pretraining and posttraining are two particularly sensitive times, or times that people want to know a lot about.

训练前和训练后是两个特别敏感的时期，或者说人们想了解很多的时期。

What should they eat before training, or can they train fasted?

训练前应该吃什么，或者可以空腹训练吗？

What should they eat afterwards?

之后他们应该吃什么？

But just in general, what do you think are some axioms of nutrition that really hold?

但总的来说，您认为哪些营养公理真正成立？

And I ask this because, not because there's a lot of debate about this, but because you've been around this space a long time, and you've seen what works for you obviously, but for other people too.

我问这个问题是因为，不是因为对此有很多争论，而是因为你已经在这个领域工作了很长时间，你已经看到什么显然对你有效，也对其他人有效。

What tends to work, what tends not to work, and how should we think about nutrition?

什么往往有效，什么往往无效，我们应该如何看待营养？

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

You've touched on it a bit, but nutrition can be a touchy subject for people.

你已经触及了一点，但营养对于人们来说可能是一个敏感的话题。

And I understand where that comes from.

我明白它从何而来。

I've talked about before, there's a dogmatic tendency to nutrition and there's a reason for it because it's an area that people struggle with more than anything else.

我之前谈到过，营养方面存在教条主义倾向，这是有原因的，因为这是一个人们比其他任何事情都更挣扎的领域。

And the reason why people struggle with nutrition is because the commitment is extremely high.

人们之所以与营养问题作斗争，是因为人们的承诺非常高。

You could start a workout program and actually get to the gym three to five times a week.

你可以开始一个锻炼计划，实际上每周去健身房三到五次。

That's five hours based on how you and I were discussing it before.

根据你和我之前讨论的方式，这是五个小时。

Well what about the other 23 hours of each of those days?

那么，每一天的另外 23 个小时呢？

There's opportunity to eat incorrectly or unhealthily every one of those hours.

每一个小时都有可能吃得不正确或不健康。

People wake up in the middle of the night to go eat.

人们半夜起床去吃饭。

There are things that you can do that can cause amazing amounts of damage to your longevity in the 23 hours, not the one hour, the 23 hours.

在 23 小时内，你可以做的一些事情会对你的寿命造成惊人的损害，而不是 1 小时，23 小时。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

So when people finally figure out a way to make that work for them, it's very passionate, and I understand their passion.

因此，当人们最终找到一种方法让这项工作为他们所用时，他们会充满热情，我理解他们的热情。

I do, I've put out, so my approach, my approach is I've always been sort of a low-sugar, lower-fat guy.

我确实这么做了，我已经提出了，所以我的方法，我的方法是我一直是一个低糖、低脂肪的人。

I made the mistake of going no fat years ago, and I paid for it.

几年前我就犯了不减肥的错误，并为此付出了代价。

I was in college, and back in the day — we were the same age.

我当时还在上大学，当时我们的年纪是一样的。

We read all the magazines and that was what we had.

我们读了所有的杂志，这就是我们所拥有的。

We didn't have internet then.

那时我们还没有互联网。

So we were reading magazines and the recommended path was to go low fat.

所以我们正在阅读杂志，推荐的途径是低脂。

It helps you to become hypocaloric very easily because the density of the calories in a gram of fat versus a gram of carbohydrates or protein is nine versus four for the carbs and protein.

它可以帮助你很容易地变得低热量，因为一克脂肪与一克碳水化合物或蛋白质的卡路里密度是九比四。

So if you're cutting out grams of fat on a daily basis, you're quickly cutting out calories.

因此，如果您每天减少脂肪的克数，那么您很快就会减少卡路里的摄入。

That allows you to get leaner.

这可以让你变得更苗条。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Well, of course, as everything, I mean if little is good then a lot is better.

嗯，当然，正如一切一样，我的意思是，如果少一点好，那么多一点就更好了。

So I would cut all of them out or almost all of them.

所以我会把它们全部或几乎全部剪掉。

And at the age of 22, 21, I'm like standing at a stop at University of Connecticut waiting for the tram to come and bring me to campus.

在22岁、21岁的时候，我就像站在康涅狄格大学的车站等待电车来载我去校园。

And I couldn't even open my eyes because the light was blinding to me.

我什至无法睁开眼睛，因为光线让我睁不开。

It was normal sunlight, it was blinding to me.

这是正常的阳光，让我睁不开眼睛。

The photosensitivity I had, learning later on after a few more courses that I took there in biology how necessary fat was for the development of healthy cells.

我有光敏感性，后来在我在那里学习了几门生物学课程后了解到脂肪对于健康细胞的发育是多么必要。

I realized what was going on, and not to mention other stuff: skin was bad, hair was falling out, all kinds of stuff.

我意识到发生了什么事，更不用说其他事情了：皮肤不好，头发脱落，各种各样的东西。

So I think that the approach to decreasing fat, so it's not excessive, because again, how calorically dense it could be, and having lower sugar, I'm a firm believer in sugar is really pretty toxic and something that we would all do better getting rid of, a lot of it.

所以我认为减少脂肪的方法并不过分，因为它的热量密度可能很高，并且糖含量较低，我坚信糖确实是有毒的，我们最好摆脱很多糖。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

That is the best approach for, I believe again, in my opinion personally, for the overall big picture.

我个人认为，对于整体大局来说，我再次相信，这是最好的方法。

Because though the people can take exclusionary approaches to nutrition and taking carbs out or eating only fats and proteins or, again, I'm not saying it doesn't work for you.

因为尽管人们可以采取排他性的营养方法，去掉碳水化合物或只吃脂肪和蛋白质，但我并不是说这对你不起作用。

And if it's the first thing that actually allowed you to gain control of your nutrition to the point where you actually saw results and got to a healthier weight, then I always say then do it.

如果这是第一件事，实际上可以让你控制你的营养，让你真正看到结果并达到更健康的体重，那么我总是说那就去做吧。

Then do it.

然后就去做吧。

But just make sure it's something you can do forever and doesn't bring upon other repercussions.

但只要确保这是你可以永远做的事情，并且不会带来其他影响。

But I think that nonexclusionary approaches to diets are the most sustainable for the rest of your life.

但我认为非排他性的饮食方法对于你的余生来说是最可持续的。

And all I'm interested in from a nutrition standpoint is something that's sustainable.

从营养的角度来看，我感兴趣的是可持续的东西。

So when I preach what I preach, I've been doing this since I was 15, 14 — people say how does he get so ripped?

因此，当我宣讲我所宣讲的内容时，我从 15 岁、14 岁起就一直这样做——人们说他怎么会如此撕裂？

I have been doing this for how many years?

我这样做已经多少年了？

30 years?

30年？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Eating clean, low sugar.

饮食干净，低糖。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Yeah, 30 years.

是啊，30年了。

And in the beginning it was a slow shift I had to make where I was like ...

一开始，这是一个缓慢的转变，我必须做出我喜欢的地方......

I went from the worst diet in the whole world, even when I was 14 years old, my breakfast was, I've talked about this so many times, but Entenmann's, I would eat Entenmann's donuts.

我从全世界最糟糕的饮食中走出来，即使在我14岁的时候，我的早餐也是，我已经谈论过很多次了，但是Entenmann's，我会吃Entenmann's甜甜圈。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Long road.

路漫漫其修远兮。

They even took the hole out of the donut.

他们甚至把甜甜圈上的洞去掉了。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Exactly.

正是如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Why would you delete the middle of the donut?

为什么要删除甜甜圈的中间？

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

The crumb donut there, I would eat donuts.

那里有面包屑甜甜圈，我会吃甜甜圈。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I can taste it in my ...

我可以在我的...

I don't like sugar very much — over the years I've lost my appetite for sugar.

我不太喜欢糖——这些年来我对糖已经失去了胃口。

But as you talk about the Entenmann's donuts, I can literally smell and taste the frosting, and to me now it's disgusting.

但当你谈论恩滕曼甜甜圈时，我确实可以闻到并尝到糖霜的味道，现在对我来说，它很恶心。

But back then it might have been appetizing.

但在当时，它可能很开胃。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

You would probably have really good information on this.

您可能会获得有关这方面的非常好的信息。

But my ability to actually remember ...

但我真正记住的能力......

they've said smell is very evoking of memories right?

他们说气味很能唤起回忆，对吗？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

So smell is unlike the other senses, because there's a direct line literally from our sense of smell to the memory centers of the brain.

因此，嗅觉与其他感官不同，因为从我们的嗅觉到大脑的记忆中心实际上有一条直接的线路。

It doesn't have to go through any intermediate stations.

它不必经过任何中间站。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

So my ability to actually recall exact taste of all the stuff that I used to love is enough to satisfy me to not engage in those things now.

因此，我能够真正回忆起我曾经喜欢的所有东西的确切味道，这足以让我现在不再从事这些事情。

As crazy as that is, I almost get my fill through remembering because of these strong senses of memory of what it was like.

尽管这很疯狂，但我几乎通过回忆来满足自己，因为对那件事的记忆感很强。

"Oh, that used to taste so good.

“哦，以前的味道真好。

Okay, that's good — I had it."

好吧，那很好——我已经得到了。”

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Fantastic.

太棒了。

Well we know the neuromodulator there, that's dopamine.

我们知道那里的神经调节剂，那就是多巴胺。

Your ability to get the dopamine release from the thought of something.

您从某件事的想法中释放多巴胺的能力。

Most people when they get that dopamine release, it causes a triggering of the desire for more.

大多数人在释放多巴胺时，会引发更多的欲望。

People think of dopamine as pleasure, dopamine ...

人们认为多巴胺是快乐，多巴胺...

there's a book, great book called "The Molecule of More." I didn't write the book unfortunately, but someone else did.

有本书，一本很棒的书，叫做《更多的分子》。不幸的是，这本书不是我写的，而是其他人写的。

And it's a great book and it's really about how dopamine.

这是一本很棒的书，它确实是关于多巴胺的。

We think it's about pleasure but it establishes craving.

我们认为这是关于快乐的，但它却建立了渴望。

So you're able to satisfy that, and it is a very adaptive thing for you because you are indeed very lean, and that's one of your kind of hallmark things.

所以你能够满足这一点，这对你来说是一件非常适应性的事情，因为你确实非常瘦，这是你的标志之一。

And as a professional who does this in the public space, that's important.

作为在公共场所这样做的专业人士，这一点很重要。

When people are out there talking about getting lean and you look at them and you're like, maybe you need to do the protocols, it's a huge advantage.

当人们在那里谈论变得精益时，你看着他们，你会想，也许你需要执行协议，这是一个巨大的优势。

But I think that it sounds like you've cultivated practices around avoiding certain things.

但我认为听起来你已经养成了避免某些事情的习惯。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Yes.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

But not ...

但不...

Avoiding certain things that I think are easily avoided if you realize that ...

避免某些我认为很容易避免的事情，如果你意识到......

and I think that we have enough science and literature out there to prove that the altered path is a better path.

我认为我们有足够的科学和文献来证明改变的道路是更好的道路。

You know what I mean?

你知道我的意思？

I feel like if I was just doing it because I wanted to be lean, I'm not quite sure it would've held for so long.

我觉得如果我只是因为想瘦而这样做，我不太确定它会坚持这么久。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And we have a guest whose episode has been recorded for this podcast who runs an eating disorder clinic at the University of Pennsylvania medical school, studies binge eating disorders, anorexia, OCD.

我们有一位嘉宾，他的节目已被录制在这个播客中，他在宾夕法尼亚大学医学院经营一家饮食失调诊所，研究暴食症、厌食症和强迫症。

And he will go on record ...

他将记录在案......

and obesity ...

和肥胖...

and he will go on record saying that these very highly palatable processed high-sugar foods of the sort that we're talking about, donuts and so forth, that they are actually dangerous.

他会公开表示，我们正在谈论的这些非常美味的加工高糖食品，甜甜圈等，实际上是危险的。

That there are elements of the way that they engage neural circuitry — he's a neurosurgeon — that reshape the brain in dangerous ways, and those are his words.

他是一名神经外科医生，他们参与神经回路的某些方式会以危险的方式重塑大脑，这就是他的话。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

We're going to tank Entenmann's for sure.

我们肯定会坦克恩滕曼的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And it's not just Entenmann's, I mean I think not just Entenmann's ...

这不仅仅是恩滕曼的，我的意思是我认为不仅仅是恩滕曼的......

They're coming after us with donuts.

他们拿着甜甜圈追我们。

They can't catch us.

他们抓不到我们。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

True.

确实如此。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In any case.

无论如何。

So in terms of what you do eat, how do you structure that?

那么就你吃的东西而言，你是如何安排的呢？

In terms of when you look down at a plate, you've done these, described this before, but I think it's just a beautifully simple description because I think a lot of people don't want to do calorie counting and all this, and how should people think about what to eat?

就当你低头看着盘子时，你已经完成了这些，之前描述过这一点，但我认为这只是一个非常简单的描述，因为我认为很多人不想计算卡路里和所有这些，人们应该如何考虑吃什么？

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

So yeah, I have what I call a plate method, and it's just simple because it works for me.

所以，是的，我有所谓的平板法，它很简单，因为它对我有用。

And again, if you're struggling with real eating issues, these mechanisms become admittedly less effective because you're having, maybe you have emotionally triggered eating, and you can't stop at one plate.

再说一次，如果你正与真正的饮食问题作斗争，这些机制无疑会变得不那么有效，因为你可能是情绪引发的饮食，而且你不能只吃一盘。

I mean that ...

我的意思是...

you could get the plate right, but if the portions are out of control.

你可以把盘子弄对，但如果部分失控。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

The plate has a dimensionality of heights.

该板具有高度维度。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Or multiple plates, second and third or ...

或多个板，第二个和第三个或......

right?

对吗？

Then all these things could be challenged.

那么所有这些事情都可能受到挑战。

But what I say is when you have your plate, then you just simply look at it as a clock.

但我想说的是，当你拿到盘子时，你只需将它视为时钟即可。

And if you just make a 9:20 on the clock, so one arm goes over to the nine and one of the arms goes over to 20, well then you're basically, you're going to take the second largest portion of that because you think you're going to make a line towards 12 o'clock too.

如果你只是在时钟上划出 9 点 20 分，那么一只手臂就会走到 9 点，而另一只手臂就会走到 20 点，那么基本上，你将占据其中的第二大部分，因为你认为你也会在 12 点钟方向排队。

And the largest portion is going to be your fibers, carbohydrates.

最大的部分将是纤维、碳水化合物。

So that's the green vegetables.

这就是绿色蔬菜。

So whether it be broccoli or brussels sprouts or asparagus or pick your favorites, those are the ones that give us a lot of the micronutrients we need.

因此，无论是西兰花、球芽甘蓝、芦笋，还是选择您最喜欢的食物，这些都能为我们提供大量所需的微量营养素。

They're the ones that are generally accepted as more healthy, and they're also going to provide the fiber that's going to be both beneficial in terms of its impact on insulin and also just through filling you up.

它们被普遍认为更健康，而且它们还将提供纤维，这些纤维不仅对胰岛素有好处，而且还能让你有饱腹感。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

And then I take the next largest portion of that, and I devote that towards protein.

然后我将其中的第二大部分用于蛋白质。

And I think it's really important, especially for anybody active, the more active you are, the more you embark on trying to build muscle, you're going to need to have protein every meal.

我认为这非常重要，特别是对于任何活跃的人来说，你越活跃，你就越开始尝试锻炼肌肉，你每顿饭都需要摄入蛋白质。

So I have that.

所以我有那个。

And again, we're talking cleaner sources of protein, but you'll never find boiled chicken on my plate.

再说一遍，我们谈论的是更清洁的蛋白质来源，但你永远不会在我的盘子里找到煮鸡肉。

I ditched those days when I was 16, or 15 or 16.

我在16岁、15岁或16岁的时候就放弃了那些日子。

I realized after reading those bodybuilding magazines that maybe the low-fat thing stuck for too long, or the no-fat thing stuck for too long.

读完那些健美杂志后我意识到，也许低脂的东西坚持得太久了，或者无脂的东西坚持得太久了。

But the boiled chicken and steamed broccoli thing, that ended quickly for me because really, I'm not going to eat this forever.

但是煮鸡肉和蒸西兰花的事情对我来说很快就结束了，因为真的，我不会永远吃这个。

So I'll have some sort of fish or chicken but it will be cooked in a way it's got maybe some sauce on it.

所以我会吃一些鱼或鸡肉，但它会以某种方式煮熟，上面可能有一些酱汁。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

It's got some, maybe it's tomato sauce, anything to just make it a little bit more palatable and interesting without blowing the value of the meal.

它有一些，也许是番茄酱，任何东西都可以让它变得更加可口和有趣，而又不会影响这顿饭的价值。

And then that last portion is where I put my starchy carbohydrates.

最后一部分是我放置淀粉类碳水化合物的地方。

And again, that's the part that some people say exclude them entirely because they're not healthy, or they don't work for you, or they're not beneficial long-term.

再说一遍，有些人说完全排除它们，因为它们不健康，或者它们对你不起作用，或者它们没有长期好处。

For me, it's been a godsend.

对我来说，这是天赐之物。

And I do think I'm like most people, my body craves those carbohydrates.

我确实认为我和大多数人一样，我的身体渴望那些碳水化合物。

I choose things like sweet potatoes, which is my favorite.

我选择像红薯这样的东西，这是我最喜欢的。

Or I'll have rice or I'll have pasta.

或者我要吃米饭，或者我要吃面食。

I'm Italian so I like pasta, and I will have those things.

我是意大利人，所以我喜欢意大利面，我会吃这些东西。

I'm not excluding them, but I don't put them in the portions that you would generally find.

我并不排除它们，但我不会将它们放在您通常会找到的部分中。

My wife and I will go out, and we'll go to the restaurant sometimes because we travel quite a bit, or used to.

我和我的妻子会出去，有时我们会去餐馆，因为我们经常旅行，或者以前经常去。

At least with baseball too, there was a Cheesecake Factory everywhere you went.

至少对于棒球来说也是如此，无论你走到哪里都有一个芝士蛋糕工厂。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

And I love Cheesecake Factory, but the way they structure meals is it's all rice on the bottom and a little bit of chicken on top.

我喜欢芝士蛋糕工厂，但他们的膳食结构是底部都是米饭，上面是一点鸡肉。

And I mean it's a plate full of rice that ...

我的意思是这是一盘装满米饭的...

you wouldn't find me make a plate that way.

你不会发现我那样做盘子。

I'm going to just devote that portion of the plate to the starchy carbohydrate.

我将把盘子的那部分专门用来吃淀粉类碳水化合物。

And so it gives me a little bit more responsibility in terms of portion control, because those are the foods, again, probably dopamine-driven, that are most easily overeaten.

因此，这让我在控制份量方面承担了更多责任，因为这些食物又可能是由多巴胺驱动的，最容易吃得过多。

I always ask the question, "When was the last time you ate 10 chicken breasts at a meal?" You're getting sick of it after maybe two or three, but you could eat a whole hell of a lot of carbohydrates, starchy carbohydrates, because they're just so satisfying.

我总是问这样一个问题：“你最后一次一顿吃 10 个鸡胸肉是什么时候？”也许两三年后你就会厌倦它，但你可以吃大量的碳水化合物，淀粉类碳水化合物，因为它们太令人满意了。

And I think those triggers, as you said, that want more, like that's what happens.

我认为，正如你所说，那些触发因素想要更多，就像发生的那样。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Even when you're feeling full, you want more.

即使你感觉很饱，你仍然想要更多。

And that's the biggest danger to carbohydrate.

这是碳水化合物最大的危险。

So if you can develop some sort of discipline around them, then you can still enjoy them.

因此，如果你能围绕它们培养某种纪律，那么你仍然可以享受它们。

If you can't develop that discipline for whatever reason, then maybe they do become something that you have to work yourself around or adopt a different eating style.

如果你出于某种原因无法培养这种纪律，那么也许它们确实会成为你必须自己解决或采取不同饮食方式的东西。

And as I said, I'm never to the point where, I'm not trying to be dogmatic in my approach.

正如我所说，我从来没有达到这样的程度，我不想在我的方法中变得教条。

I'm always trying to say this is how I do it.

我总是试图说这就是我做事的方式。

And I'm a believer in it just like everyone else is a believer in their method.

我相信它，就像其他人相信他们的方法一样。

But I'm open to the idea that something that works for you and gets you to a healthier weight and a sustainability?

但我对这样的想法持开放态度：有什么对你有效并能让你达到更健康的体重和可持续发展的东西吗？

Like that is good, good for me.

这样很好，对我有好处。

Provided it doesn't introduce other issues.

前提是它不会引入其他问题。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Something one can do consistently.

一个人可以始终如一地做某件事。

That's something I picked up from you over the years.

这是我多年来从你那里学到的东西。

What can you do consistently?

你能始终如一地做什么？

And for me that also meant what, when and how can I eat, what can I eat consistently that will also allow me to be alert after lunch, so I can actually get some work done, or eat ...

对我来说，这也意味着我可以吃什么、什么时候、如何吃，我可以持续吃什么，这也能让我在午餐后保持警觉，这样我实际上可以完成一些工作，或者吃东西......

I like to train fasted in the morning, but I don't do any long-term fasting.

我喜欢早上禁食训练，但不会长期禁食。

It just so happens that I'm fine doing water and caffeine in the morning, and training in the morning, and then I eat my first meal afterwards.

碰巧我早上喝水和咖啡因，早上训练，然后吃第一顿饭就很好了。

But I get carbohydrates at night, so my glycogen is restored.

但我在晚上摄入碳水化合物，所以我的糖原得到恢复。

I think carbohydrates are wonderful.

我认为碳水化合物很棒。

I just don't eat them in excess.

我只是不吃过量。

So to me, I feel like what you describe is a very rational, literally balanced approach.

所以对我来说，我觉得你所描述的是一种非常理性、真正平衡的方法。

And obviously there will be variations for people who are dealing with obesity or diabetes, or ...

显然，对于患有肥胖症或糖尿病的人来说，情况会有所不同，或者......

I've got friends that are on the pure carnivore thing.

我有一些朋友是纯粹的肉食动物。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I have friends that are vegan.

我有一些朋友是素食主义者。

And it's always impressive to me when somebody can stick to anything consistently.

当一个人能够始终如一地坚持做任何事情时，这总是给我留下深刻的印象。

Except when they're sticking to just poor behavior.

除非他们坚持不良行为。

That's nothing impressive about that.

这没什么令人印象深刻的。

Well, I think that's very helpful because I think for the typical listener of this podcast, the online content that people see, the battles are very confusing.

嗯，我认为这非常有帮助，因为我认为对于这个播客的典型听众来说，人们看到的在线内容，战斗非常令人困惑。

They're distracting because people really think, oh, that there's a right way and a wrong way.

它们会分散人们的注意力，因为人们真的认为，哦，有正确的方法和错误的方法。

And it sounds like the way that one can eat consistently over time that's healthy.

这听起来像是一种长期坚持饮食的健康方式。

Certainly fewer processed and sugary foods.

当然要少吃加工食品和含糖食品。

I think almost everybody agrees there.

我想几乎每个人都同意这一点。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Almost everyone agrees on that.

几乎所有人都同意这一点。

So I think it's calorie manipulation through some other method.

所以我认为这是通过其他方法来控制卡路里。

So even intermittent fasting, like, you know, you said, that could be for people that are grazers.

因此，即使是间歇性禁食，就像你说的那样，这也可能适合食草动物。

If you are a grazer and your real problem is portion control over the course of the day, but you can respond to a rule that says "No, you're eating between here and here," that you can obey that rule.

如果你是一个吃草的人，你真正的问题是一天中的份量控制，但你可以回应一条规则，说“不，你在这里和这里之间吃东西”，你可以遵守这个规则。

Well you're not going to be able to graze during the times that you might be doing additional damage.

好吧，在你可能造成额外伤害的时候你将无法吃草。

So sure there's other hormonal benefits that people will talk about from that approach.

所以人们肯定会谈论这种方法对荷尔蒙的其他好处。

But from a longevity standpoint and habit-forming standpoint, if it's fixing the habit that you're breaking too often by eating whenever you feel like you walk by food, it's good and it works.

但从长寿和习惯形成的角度来看，如果它能纠正你经常打破的习惯，每当你感觉自己走过食物时就吃东西，那么它是好的，而且有效。

And again, people will tell you you can probably eat whatever you want to eat as long as you're eating within those, that window.

人们会再次告诉你，只要你在那个窗口内吃东西，你就可以吃任何你想吃的东西。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

But I think the more responsible people who are practitioners of that will say, "No, you still want to avoid processed sugar and things like that." And that's just a mechanism of eating, really a diet.

但我认为更负责任的实践者会说：“不，你仍然想避免加工糖和类似的东西。”这只是一种饮食机制，实际上是一种饮食。

But I think that people, I hate to be as basic as it sounds with that, but it's for the exact reason that if it's that 23-hour day phenomenon, that it's like, you said you're impressed.

但我认为人们，我讨厌像听起来那样简单，但确切的原因是，如果这是一天 23 小时的现象，那就像是，你说你印象深刻。

It is impressive.

令人印象深刻。

It's so hard to control all of our behaviors, and food being one of the hardest things, one of the biggest temptations for people.

控制我们所有的行为是如此困难，而食物是最难的事情之一，是对人们最大的诱惑之一。

You got to learn how to control that for so long and then do it day after day after day, whatever that mechanism is that works for you is impressive.

你必须学习如何长期控制它，然后日复一日地这样做，无论哪种机制对你有效都是令人印象深刻的。

And I'm a believer in it.

我对此深信不疑。

I think that's how I feel.

我想这就是我的感受。

I just feel like people need to be able to be given some reins to be able to find what works for them.

我只是觉得人们需要被赋予一些控制权才能找到适合他们的东西。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, I love to eat and one of the beauties of weight training is I feel like I can eat plenty for my age, and I'm not as lean as you are, but I'm happy with where I'm at.

嗯，我喜欢吃东西，举重训练的好处之一是我觉得我可以吃很多适合我这个年龄的东西，而且我不像你那么瘦，但我对自己现在的状况很满意。

I could always do better.

我总是可以做得更好。

With each year, actually, I'm getting better, probably because I'm eating cleaner, probably because I also have someone to cook for me now.

事实上，我每年都在变得更好，可能是因为我吃得更干净，可能是因为我现在也有人为我做饭了。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

I have that too.

我也有那个。

I have that too.

我也有那个。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And we like healthy food and so I'm very fortunate.

我们喜欢健康食品，所以我很幸运。

I don't think we have any packaged food in our home.

我想我们家里没有任何包装食品。

We even started making sauerkraut at home.

我们甚至开始在家做酸菜。

I don't make it.

我没能做到。

She makes it.

她做到了。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

My wife actually, she turned me on to a tip that I actually shared with the whole channel, which was like, you can go to ...

事实上，我的妻子让我发现了一个我实际上与整个频道分享的提示，就像，你可以去......

We have a Stew Leonard's around, our big grocery store chain around us, and they have a catering department, and they're often used for catering big parties, and big tubs of grilled chicken, but really good grilled chicken.

我们周围有一家 Stew Leonard's 餐厅，我们周围有一家大型杂货连锁店，他们有一个餐饮部门，经常用于举办大型聚会，还有大桶的烤鸡，但烤鸡真的很好吃。

Again, not the boiled chicken, but big tubs of sweet potatoes.

再说一次，不是煮鸡肉，而是大盆红薯。

And we'll get a bunch of those, and she'll go over and she'll get them.

我们会得到一堆，她会过去并得到它们。

Then she'll sort of arrange them on plates and put the plates in.

然后她会把它们排列在盘子上，然后把盘子放进去。

And I'm okay with repetitive eating.

而且我可以接受重复进食。

I think more people are probably okay with repetitive eating than they think.

我认为接受重复饮食的人可能比他们想象的要多。

I think that when you actually break down, how many different breakfast variations do you have?

我想当你真正崩溃的时候，你有多少种不同的早餐选择？

Three, two?

三、二？

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Two or three maximum.

最多两三个。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

So I think when people do ...

所以我认为当人们这样做时...

there's more variety for dinner probably.

晚餐的品种可能会更多。

But even there you probably eat five different types of dinners over the course of a week or a month.

但即使在那里，您也可能在一周或一个月内吃五种不同类型的晚餐。

Well, if you have that ability to identify the things that you like, and again, no plan is going to work if you're eating stuff you don't like.

好吧，如果你有能力识别你喜欢的东西，那么如果你吃你不喜欢的东西，任何计划都不会起作用。

It's not going to work forever.

它不会永远有效。

Nothing will.

什么都不会。

You have to really enjoy what you're eating.

你必须真正享受你所吃的东西。

As long as these variations of this meal are something that you really enjoy and there are limited versions of them, the reproducibility of that is simple.

只要这顿饭的这些变化是您真正喜欢的，并且它们的版本有限，那么其再现性就很简单。

It will take some time.

这需要一些时间。

But if you're fortunate enough in our case to have somebody who can prepare it for you, now that's even part out of the equation.

但是，如果您在我们的情况下足够幸运，有人可以为您准备它，那么现在这甚至是不可行的。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

And it just makes it very simple.

它只是让它变得非常简单。

But I do think when you tally up all the costs of medical care that are spiked by having poor nutrition, and you then offset that by what it might cost you to invest in a faster strategy like this catering trick or whatever it might be, you be best off figuring out a way to maybe reallocate some of your money to preparing this because you know how important it is to your long-term health and longevity.

但我确实认为，当你计算出因营养不良而增加的所有医疗费用，然后用投资于更快的策略（例如餐饮技巧或其他任何可能的策略）可能花费的费用来抵消这些费用时，你最好想出一种方法来重新分配你的一些钱来准备这个，因为你知道这对你的长期健康和长寿有多么重要。

If you can figure out your nutrition issues, if everyone listening to this podcast can figure out their nutrition issues, this whole world will be different.

如果你能弄清楚你的营养问题，如果每个听这个播客的人都能弄清楚他们的营养问题，那么整个世界就会不同。

That is one of the largest sources of disease and pain and discomfort because people really struggle with nutrition.

这是疾病、疼痛和不适的最大来源之一，因为人们确实在营养方面挣扎。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And it's a huge problem.

这是一个大问题。

I mean the obesity, it is an epidemic in this country.

我指的是肥胖，它在这个国家是一种流行病。

It's very, very serious.

这是非常非常严重的。

Also, a lot of highly processed foods are more expensive than healthier foods.

此外，许多精加工食品比健康食品更贵。

When you really break it down, even the better-sourced, high-quality foods are right there on par less than the processed foods for sure.

当你真正仔细分析时，你会发现，即使是来源更好的优质食品，其含量也肯定比加工食品要低。

But couple other questions as it relates to training, because I think that one thing that a lot of people wonder about, and maybe we could do this in kind of a true/false method, just to get through some of these 50.

但还有一些与培训相关的其他问题，因为我认为很多人都想知道这一点，也许我们可以用一种正确/错误的方法来做到这一点，只是为了通过这 50 个中的一些。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Fifty-fifty, I'll get right, at least.

五十五，至少我会赶上的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Exactly.

正是如此。

Men and women should train differently.

男性和女性应该进行不同的训练。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

The science of it will say false.

科学会说这是错误的。

And again, not to generalize, but kind of the point you touched on earlier today, I do find that casually interested women in training will migrate more towards certain types.

再说一遍，不是一概而论，而是您今天早些时候提到的一点，我确实发现对培训随意感兴趣的女性会更多地转向某些类型。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Women in training will migrate more towards certain types of fitness like kickboxing, like dancing, like-

接受训练的女性会更多地转向某些类型的健身，比如跆拳道、舞蹈等——

PART 4 OF 5 ENDS Andrew Huberman:

第 4 部分（共 5 部分）结束 Andrew Huberman：

Low rest, circuit type?

低休息，电路类型？

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

是啊，是啊，是啊。

And I think, again, whatever it is that you're going to engage in regularly is what you should do.

我再次认为，无论你要定期做什么，都是你应该做的。

Physiologically?

生理上？

No. And I think if we can get more women to feel more comfortable in the gym, performing the same exercises and receiving the same strength-training benefits and working on progressive overload, and yeah, we've hit the holy grail.

不。我认为，如果我们能让更多的女性在健身房里感觉更舒服，进行相同的锻炼，获得相同的力量训练益处，并进行渐进式超负荷训练，是的，我们已经达到了圣杯。

But I think that it's a big bridge that has to be gapped still because there's just some reality to ...

但我认为这是一座必须留有缺口的大桥，因为有一些现实需要......

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Listen, my wife is a perfect example of this, living a very complicated, busy life.

听着，我的妻子就是一个很好的例子，她过着非常复杂、忙碌的生活。

We have two young boys.

我们有两个小男孩。

They're twins.

他们是双胞胎。

And her attention and focus is there, and it's like she doesn't do this for a living like I do.

她的注意力和焦点就在那里，就好像她不像我一样以此为生。

And if she can get a decent workout in, she's happy.

如果她能得到体面的锻炼，她会很高兴。

But she's not necessarily working on her deadlift PR.

但她并不一定致力于她的硬拉公关。

I think that that would help her and serve her in the long term, to work on increasing her PRs and different lifts and building her strength progressively.

我认为这将从长远来看对她有帮助，为她服务，努力提高她的个人成绩和不同的举重，并逐步增强她的力量。

But you know what?

但你知道吗？

In her life, right now is not necessarily in the cards to have the time to focus on that.

在她的生活中，现在不一定有时间专注于此。

So, would you then discourage this other thing that she might find interesting?

那么，您会阻止她可能感兴趣的其他事情吗？

Like some boxing.

就像拳击一样。

There was a little, I don't remember the brand, but one of those punchable boxing stand-up things, and she enjoys it.

有一种，我不记得是什么牌子了，但是一种可拳击的站立式拳击东西，她很喜欢。

And anything to get you moving is going be preferable.

任何能让你动起来的事情都会更好。

But I don't think that necessarily, physiologically, there's a difference.

但我认为从生理上来说不一定存在差异。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You started weight training pretty young.

你很年轻就开始举重训练。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Yeah.

是的。

I messed around with my brother because he was older.

我和我哥哥混在一起，因为他年纪大了。

He was four years older.

他比他大四岁。

So, I was messing around with weights, probably 12 or 13, with a five-pound dumbbell.

所以，我用了一个 5 磅重的哑铃，摆弄着重量，可能是 12 或 13 个。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You hear that young kids shouldn't work out with the weights.

您听说年幼的孩子不应该进行举重锻炼。

I don't know what the going standard is now.

不知道现在的标准是什么。

They say it shuts down long bone growth or growth plates, this sort of thing.

他们说它会关闭长骨生长或生长板之类的东西。

You've got two young boys.

你有两个小男孩。

Adorable kids, by the way.

顺便说一句，可爱的孩子们。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Thanks.

谢谢。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

One of the things that is very heartwarming is to see you're in great shape.

非常暖心的事情之一就是看到你的状态很好。

You're extremely bright.

你非常聪明。

You know your craft, you love your craft.

你了解你的手艺，你热爱你的手艺。

You work with Jesse, who we'll talk about as well.

你和杰西一起工作，我们也会谈论他。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

It takes great patience.

这需要极大的耐心。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Which is great that there's a camaraderie there.

那里有友情真是太好了。

Having great teammates as part of a business or to work out with is just ...

拥有优秀的队友作为企业的一部分或一起锻炼只是......

makes life better.

让生活更美好。

Let's just be honest.

老实说吧。

I'm grateful to have great teammates for the podcast and my lab, of course, as well.

当然，我很感激播客和我的实验室有很棒的队友。

But to see your boys and your dogs, and the whole picture, I'm sure it has a lot of contours and complexity that we don't know about and shouldn't know about, but it's a beautiful picture.

但是看到你的孩子和你的狗，以及整个画面，我确信它有很多我们不知道也不应该知道的轮廓和复杂性，但它是一幅美丽的图画。

And will they weight train?

他们会进行重量训练吗？

I've seen the videos of one or both of them hanging from the bar.

我看过酒吧里挂着他们一个或两个的视频。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

These kids are natural, as I'm telling you.

正如我告诉你的，这些孩子是天生的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I wonder where they get it from.

我想知道他们从哪里得到它。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

I don't even encourage it.

我什至不鼓励这样做。

I'm not going to be the dad who's sitting there saying, "Let's go, son."

我不会成为坐在那里说“我们走吧，儿子”的父亲。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Pull-ups, right.

引体向上，对。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Yeah.

是的。

We got our two-a-days.

我们一天两次。

I'm not going to do that.

我不会那样做。

But they have a natural interest in the gym.

但他们对健身房有着天生的兴趣。

They just sometimes like to be out with Daddy.

他们只是有时喜欢和爸爸一起出去。

So, they'll come out there.

所以，他们会出来。

And I, of the two of us, my wife and I, will be the one who has a little bit more of a longer leash to let them explore things.

而我，我们两个人，我和我的妻子，将是那个有更长一点的束缚让他们探索事物的人。

Because I was a dummy at times too and figured out best through the mistakes I made.

因为我有时也是个傻瓜，通过我所犯的错误找出最好的办法。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Through injury.

通过受伤。

In neuroscience, we call that one-trial learning.

在神经科学中，我们称之为一次性尝试学习。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

There you go.

就这样吧。

These guys are going to be masters of one-trial learning because they'll go grab the handles of my jammer that's there.

这些人将成为一次性学习的大师，因为他们会抓住我那儿的干扰器的手柄。

Because it's at a lower level for them.

因为这对于他们来说是一个比较低的层次。

And they're swinging around, they're doing pull-ups on it, naturally uncoached, nothing from me.

他们四处晃动，做引体向上，自然而然地没有受到任何指导，我什么也没做。

One will walk out to a deadlift bar, stand over it naturally, never saw me do it.

人们会走到硬拉杆前，自然地站在上面，但从未见过我这么做。

Stands over there and just goes ...

站在那儿然后走……

He tries to pull it.

他试图拉它。

So, there's definitely an inclination to liking the gym, and I will fully support that.

所以，肯定有喜欢健身房的倾向，我会全力支持。

But of course, body weight will be good for quite a while.

但当然，体重会在相当长一段时间内保持良好状态。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

What age do you think is reasonable for kids to start exploring a non-body-weight training?

您认为孩子几岁开始探索非自重训练比较合适？

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

I think around 13.

我想13点左右。

I think around 13.

我想13点左右。

Once puberty, I think it's okay to start to.

到了青春期，我觉得就可以开始了。

Because there's so much.

因为有太多了。

I would even say for people that are later in age who are just starting out, learn with your own body weight first.

我什至会说，对于年龄较大、刚刚开始的人来说，首先要根据自己的体重来学习。

There's plenty of resistance to be had by learning how to command your body in space.

学习如何在太空中指挥身体会遇到很多阻力。

If you have never trained before, you're going to get very stimulated by doing lunging and reverse lunging.

如果您以前从未训练过，那么弓步和反向弓步会让您感到非常刺激。

Even learning some of the proprioception around movement through space.

甚至学习一些关于空间运动的本体感觉。

Pull-ups, chin-ups.

引体向上、引体向上。

Pull-ups and chin-ups are challenging for even people that have had 20, 30 years of experience in the gym.

即使对于拥有 20、30 年健身房经验的人来说，引体向上和引体向上也是一项挑战。

There's a lot of stimulus to be had by body weight.

体重有很多刺激作用。

And jumping straight to dumbbells or barbells is actually doing yourself a disservice.

直接跳到哑铃或杠铃实际上是在伤害自己。

You can learn better command of your body in space, so that when you go back to the bigger lifts, you're going to have an easier time progressively loading them and building up that foundation of strength.

你可以在太空中更好地控制自己的身体，这样当你回到更大的举重时，你就会更轻松地逐步加载它们并建立力量基础。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

I'm not saying that you have to become a master calisthenics athlete before you can touch a barbell.

我并不是说你必须成为一名健美运动员才能接触杠铃。

That's not even true.

这甚至不是真的。

I'm just saying there's so much capacity.

我只是说容量太大了

Kids are going to be doing this anyway.

无论如何，孩子们都会这样做。

And really just, if you look at general play, they are jumping, they are lunging, they are climbing, they are pulling.

事实上，如果你看一下一般的比赛，你会发现他们在跳跃、他们在冲刺、他们在攀爬、他们在拉动。

That's what they do.

这就是他们所做的。

I don't know where the avoidance of structured training is for younger kids.

我不知道对于年幼的孩子来说，在哪里可以避免结构化训练。

Again, provided they're using body weight and maybe less ballistic movements or something like that.

再说一遍，前提是他们使用体重，并且可能减少弹道运动或类似的运动。

Or certainly overloaded movements.

或者肯定是超负荷的动作。

I think we should encourage kids to do more.

我认为我们应该鼓励孩子们做更多的事情。

There's a lot of obesity in kids on the rise also, and that is incredibly disconcerting to me.

儿童肥胖率也在上升，这让我非常不安。

And I hope it doesn't come from the advice of some that say, "Well, wait until you're older to start doing something." That's a way worse trade-off than engaging in something smart now.

我希望这不是来自于一些人的建议：“好吧，等你长大了再开始做某事。”与现在从事一些明智的事情相比，这是一种更糟糕的权衡。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We used to get kicked out of the house when we were kids.

当我们还是孩子的时候，我们常常被赶出家门。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Totally.

完全可以。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

My mom would kick us out.

我妈妈会把我们赶出去。

I had a huge pack of boys that lived on my street.

我家街上住着一大群男孩。

But we'd get kicked outside.

但我们会被赶到外面。

Literally, you're not allowed in the ...

从字面上看，你不被允许进入...

No television.

没有电视。

But there were video games, of course, but we were kicked out of the house.

当然还有电子游戏，但我们被赶出了家门。

We had to go play.

我们不得不去玩。

For us, it was skateboarding, soccer, and then we'd find our trouble.

对我们来说，就是滑板、足球，然后我们就会遇到麻烦。

Posttraining nutrition.

训练后营养。

We're the same age.

我们同龄。

Years ago, I was neurotic about the idea that I had to ingest a certain amount of carbohydrates and proteins within two hours.

几年前，我对必须在两小时内摄入一定量的碳水化合物和蛋白质的想法感到神经质。

Then, it was 90 minutes of training.

接下来就是90分钟的训练。

I confess, if I train hard, I'm talking about the resistance training, not the running, but the resistance training, 60 to 90 minutes later, I'm really hungry.

我承认，如果我努力训练，我说的是抗阻训练，不是跑步，而是抗阻训练，60到90分钟后，我真的很饿。

But there have been days when I just skip, and then, the hunger passes, and then, later, I eat more.

但有些日子我只是跳过，然后饥饿感过去了，然后，后来，我吃得更多。

I might eat twice as much later.

以后我可能会吃两倍。

That's just the way sometimes, schedules go.

有时候，日程安排就是这样进行的。

But what are your thoughts in terms of the nutrition science, the training-related effects of the posttraining meal?

但是，您对营养科学以及训练后膳食对训练相关的影响有何看法？

Is it something that you try to get?

这是你想要得到的东西吗？

Is it something you think people should pay attention to?

您认为这是人们应该关注的事情吗？

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

That science has actually probably been the one that's changed the most in my lifetime, honestly.

老实说，这门科学实际上可能是我一生中变化最大的一门科学。

Because again, we're the same age, and I was falling for the same trap, where I would really be focused on ...

因为我们同龄，我也陷入了同样的陷阱，我真正关注的是……

I'm risking speeding tickets driving home from the gym to make-

我冒着超速罚单的风险从健身房开车回家去——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

really serious.

真的很严重。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

...

...

sure I got an anabolic window.

当然我有一个合成代谢窗口。

I did all that.

我做了这一切。

I really did.

我真的做到了。

But thankfully, that's been debunked, and your body isn't just rushing through these certain periods of time to utilize the nutrients in our body, but are able to partition them and use them over a much greater duration.

但值得庆幸的是，这一点已被揭穿，您的身体不仅会在这些特定的时间段内匆忙地利用体内的营养物质，而且能够将它们分开并在更长的时间内使用它们。

Up to now, they're saying three to four hours after training, five hours after training, you can still see the benefits of replenishment.

到现在为止，他们说训练后三到四个小时，训练后五个小时，你仍然可以看到补水的好处。

A lot of that is just, I think there's a consistency element to it, that just utilizing a postworkout window or a postworkout meal, even if it's within two hours or one hour, is just integrating the habit of saying, "Listen, I just did this activity.

我认为其中有一个一致性因素，即利用锻炼后的窗口或锻炼后的膳食，即使是在两小时或一小时内，也只是整合了这样的习惯：“听着，我刚刚做了这项活动。

And now, I want to replenish some of what I lost, the energy that I used to perform the exercises that I did." And just getting into the routine knowing that the engine is ultimately fed by what we put in it.

现在，我想补充一些我失去的东西，我用来进行练习的能量。”只要进入日常工作，就知道发动机最终是由我们放入其中的东西提供动力的。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

And the concept of replenishing the fuel lost is still a concept that, I think — again, different in mechanism but still important in terms of fueling the overall performance.

我认为，补充损失的燃料的概念仍然是一个概念，虽然机制不同，但在提高整体性能方面仍然很重要。

So, the preworkout period of time gives us a chance to actually have a longer window because if those nutrients are obtained preworkout, it's not like they're gone in that hour that you've trained.

因此，锻炼前的时间让我们有机会真正拥有更长的时间窗口，因为如果这些营养素在锻炼前获得，它们就不会在您训练的那个小时内消失。

They're still there and available for your body to use.

它们仍然存在并可供您的身体使用。

So, I think it's important to get one of the two right or at least make sure you're consistently having one or the two.

因此，我认为正确选择两者之一或至少确保始终拥有其中之一或两者非常重要。

Or you might risk going through all these periods of having no nutrition to support your efforts.

或者你可能会冒着经历所有这些没有营养来支持你的努力的时期的风险。

Not only will your workouts potentially suffer in terms of the output, but then you're also not providing your body any ability to capitalize on an opportunity to feed it, and refuel, and recover.

不仅你的锻炼可能会在输出方面受到影响，而且你也无法为你的身体提供任何利用机会进食、补充能量和恢复的能力。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

I'm not very dogmatic about what specifically to eat pre- or postworkout, but I do think you should have protein surrounding your training, whether that be ahead of time or after.

我对于锻炼前或锻炼后具体吃什么并不是很教条，但我确实认为你应该在训练期间摄入蛋白质，无论是在训练前还是训练后。

Protein could be a little bit hard to digest for some people.

对于某些人来说，蛋白质可能有点难以消化。

So, if you do that preworkout, and then you're finding your workout's slogging because you don't feel good, then so, you put that after your meal.

因此，如果您在锻炼前进行了锻炼，然后发现锻炼进展缓慢，因为您感觉不舒服，那么您可以将其放在饭后进行。

But this whole concept of the urgency of time has thankfully been removed, and we can just learn to eat a little bit more responsibly and drive more responsibly, so we're not trying to rush home from the gym and risk killing people on the way.

但值得庆幸的是，时间紧迫的整个概念已经被消除，我们可以学会更负责任地吃一点，更负责任地开车，所以我们不会试图从健身房冲回家，冒着在路上杀人的风险。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

But I think it's great because I think that that was something that it just showcases a belief that people had for so long that has since been proven to be not that important.

但我认为这很棒，因为我认为这只是展示了人们长期以来所持有的一种信念，但事实证明这种信念并不那么重要。

And there's a tip of the cap towards research in a good way, where it's like, "All right, I think we could all agree that this isn't necessarily true anymore." And look at yourself and say, "Oh my God, I did that so often.

以一种好的方式进行研究有一个上限，就像是，“好吧，我想我们都同意这不一定是真的。”看看自己，然后说：“天哪，我经常这样做。

I bit that one hook, line, and sinker."

我咬住了那个钩子、线和坠子。”

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

But then, realize, okay, we could always make a change, and the good thing about nutrition is those changes can happen the very next time you go to eat, and you'll start to see the benefits of that.

但是，然后，意识到，好吧，我们总是可以做出改变，而营养的好处是这些改变可以在你下次吃饭时发生，你会开始看到这样做的好处。

So, I'm not a big believer in that strict approach to pre- or postworkout.

所以，我不太相信锻炼前或锻炼后的严格方法。

Even as far as preworkout supplements, a lot of people don't take them.

即使就锻炼前补充剂而言，很多人也不服用。

A lot of people don't like them.

很多人不喜欢他们。

They don't take them.

他们不接受。

They're not necessarily even being used as the nutritive side of the preworkout.

它们甚至不一定被用作锻炼前的营养成分。

They're just more used to fuel the workout.

它们只是更习惯于为锻炼提供能量。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

For me, it's water and some form of caffeine.

对我来说，它是水和某种形式的咖啡因。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Again, I think it's important.

再说一遍，我认为这很重要。

I do think it's important to maintain a high level of output.

我确实认为保持高水平的产出很重要。

If your preworkout nutrition requires a stimulant in order to help you do that, or if your prework nutrition is causing you to have a harder time to train because you're feeling full, or stomachache, or something else, then that's not achieving what you're trying to do.

如果你的训练前营养需要兴奋剂来帮助你做到这一点，或者如果你的训练前营养导致你因为感觉饱、胃痛或其他原因而难以训练，那么这并不能实现你想要做的事情。

The ultimate goal is to still be able to perform at the highest level.

最终目标是仍然能够发挥最高水平。

Whatever your nutrition is required to allow you to still do that, that is probably the most important factor of all of it.

无论您需要什么样的营养才能让您仍然做到这一点，这可能是其中最重要的因素。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Great.

太棒了。

I love the very clear and rational approach.

我喜欢这种非常清晰和理性的方法。

Don't ingest anything right before your workout or near your workout that's going to make your workout worse.

不要在锻炼前或锻炼前后摄入任何会让你的锻炼变得更糟的东西。

It's so simple, and yet you don't hear this because I think people will think, oh, they must have a preworkout.

这很简单，但你没有听到这个，因为我认为人们会想，哦，他们必须进行预锻炼。

They must have a postworkout.

他们必须进行锻炼后。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

No. Again, even if the benefits that are to be had from whatever's being suggested are going to be easily offset by the fact that you can't perform at an output capable of driving any change.

不。再说一遍，即使从所建议的任何内容中获得的好处很容易被您无法以能够推动任何变革的输出执行的事实所抵消。

That would pretty much negate the fact that there's no ...

这几乎否定了一个事实，即没有......

You're not outweighing those benefits of whatever nutritive approach you took and struggling through your workout.

无论您采取什么营养方法并努力完成锻炼，这些好处都不会被您忽视。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

For me, the best preworkout is a good night's sleep, hydration, caffeine, music.

对我来说，最好的锻炼前就是睡个好觉、补充水分、咖啡因和音乐。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Yeah.

是的。

There you go.

就这样吧。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That it works.

它有效。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

It's a pretty simple formula.

这是一个非常简单的公式。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

It works.

它有效。

And then, post, I do I find I get quite hungry and want to eat quite a bit more and-

然后，发帖，我发现我很饿，想多吃一点——

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Well, that's a natural response.

嗯，这是一个自然的反应。

The body's going to, and most people want to do that, and I think it should be fed.

身体会这样做，大多数人都想这样做，我认为应该给它喂食。

I worked out as ...

我锻炼了...

Again, a lot of my postings on Instagram will happen at 10:00 at night, 10:30 at night, 11:00 at night because I am actually training there, and that's where I'm taking those little breaks in between sets to actually film or post something.

再说一遍，我在 Instagram 上发布的很多帖子都发生在晚上 10:00、晚上 10:30、晚上 11:00，因为我实际上在那里训练，这就是我在组间休息时实际拍摄或发布一些东西的地方。

But I then go inside, I eat dinner.

但我然后进去，吃晚饭。

So, I'm eating at 11:00 at night.

所以，我晚上11:00吃饭。

It's not necessarily ideal.

这不一定是理想的。

I'm not recommending that as a tool for anybody.

我不推荐它作为任何人的工具。

I think it dispels one thing.

我认为它消除了一件事。

I've never been a believer in you can't eat carbs after 6:00.

我从来不相信 6:00 以后不能吃碳水化合物。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, no. That makes no sense to me.

是的，不。这对我来说毫无意义。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Zero sense.

零感。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Based on all the signs of metabolism that I've seen, makes no sense.

根据我所看到的所有新陈代谢迹象，这是没有意义的。

I think as long as you can ...

我想只要你能...

Sort of like napping.

有点像打瞌睡。

I talked to Matt Walker, one of the great sleep researchers, wrote "Why We Sleep," et cetera and has his own podcast about sleep, tremendous researcher, public communicator about sleep.

我和马特·沃克（Matt Walker）交谈过，他是一位伟大的睡眠研究人员，写过《我们为什么睡觉》等等，并且有他自己的关于睡眠的播客，他是一位伟大的研究人员，关于睡眠的公共传播者。

And he said, "Naps are fine, provided they don't interrupt your ability to sleep well at night." Simple.

他说：“小睡没问题，只要它们不影响你晚上睡个好觉。”简单的。

Some people can sleep from 8:00 to 9:00 p.m., and then go to bed at midnight, and not a problem.

有些人可以从晚上 8:00 到 9:00 睡觉，然后半夜上床睡觉，这不是问题。

Other people, they take a 30-minute nap after lunch, and they can't sleep at night.

另一些人，午饭后小睡30分钟，晚上睡不着。

Same thing with ...

同样的事情与...

caffeine's a little different because Matt would argue the architecture of sleep can be disrupted, et cetera.

咖啡因有点不同，因为马特认为睡眠的结构可能会被破坏，等等。

But if you can eat dinner late and eat carbohydrates late, I actually need carbohydrates at night in order to be able to sleep.

但如果你能晚吃晚饭，晚吃碳水化合物，我实际上晚上需要碳水化合物才能入睡。

Whenever I've done a low-carbohydrate-type regimen in the evening, I have a hard time falling asleep.

每当我晚上进行低碳水化合物饮食时，我就很难入睡。

I'm just too alert.

我只是太警觉了。

So, I eat carbohydrates in the evening to restore glycogen, but also in order to make sure that I can fall asleep.

所以，我晚上吃碳水化合物是为了恢复糖原，也是为了保证我能入睡。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Again, obviously, it's already late at night by the time I'm done eating, but I can fall asleep within five, 10 minutes of finishing my meal.

再说一次，显然，当我吃完饭时已经是深夜了，但我可以在吃完饭后五到十分钟内入睡。

Because I do think that they have that same effect on me.

因为我确实认为它们对我有同样的影响。

But I'm not bothered by the feeling of fullness.

但我并不为饱腹感所困扰。

I'm not unable to sleep because of the feeling of fullness.

我并不是因为饱腹感而无法入睡。

But I do like the fact that I feel as if I'm at least replenishing what was lost through my hard training.

但我确实喜欢这样一个事实：我感觉自己至少在补充艰苦训练中损失的东西。

And I do like to back it up with a dinner.

我确实喜欢用晚餐来支持它。

I don't need to eat smaller amounts.

我不需要吃少量的东西。

Some people can't have that much.

有些人不能拥有那么多。

I will say, after a hard leg workout, I don't have the same appetite that I do after, let's say, an upper body workout.

我会说，在进行剧烈的腿部锻炼之后，我的食欲与上半身锻炼之后的胃口不同。

It can really disrupt my whole feeling of well-being.

它确实会破坏我的整体幸福感。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

You want to eat less after you train your legs?

练腿后想少吃点吗？

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

I do, yeah.

我愿意，是的。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Wow.

哇。

I'm the opposite.

我恰恰相反。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

No, no. Because I just feel, I could feel sick to my stomach.

不，不。因为我只是感觉，我的胃感觉不舒服。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, you're clearly training harder.

嗯，很明显你训练更加刻苦了。

I've seen the way you train.

我见过你训练的方式。

You do train very intensely.

你训练确实非常激烈。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Yeah.

是的。

I think it's important.

我认为这很重要。

I think that, again, it's that trade-off between if you're not going to train for a long period of time, then you're going to want to train harder.

我认为，如果你不打算长时间训练，那么你就会想要更加努力地训练，这就是权衡。

And again, I actually feel like, contrary to what people might think, as you age, you're better off training harder for shorter period of time.

再说一遍，我实际上觉得，与人们的想法相反，随着年龄的增长，在较短的时间内进行更努力的训练会更​​好。

It's always within the realm of safe training.

它始终在安全训练的范围内。

I think that's what ...

我想这就是...

I like to think that's what I bring to the table, an approach that's smarter, so I can train harder.

我喜欢认为这就是我带来的，一种更聪明的方法，这样我就可以更加努力地训练。

Like not doing the dumb things I did when I was a kid.

就像我不做小时候做过的蠢事一样。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

And with that trade-off, being a harder trainer, I think I get the results that I want because I'm able to really push it and then back off.

通过这种权衡，作为一名更努力的训练者，我认为我得到了我想要的结果，因为我能够真正推动它然后退缩。

And again, the meal feels like almost a physiological reward for the hard effort I put in the gym, knowing that I'm also replenishing and setting the stage for the next day to be another successful day of training.

再说一次，这顿饭感觉就像是对我在健身房付出的努力的一种生理奖励，因为我知道我也在补充能量，并为第二天的又一个成功的训练做好准备。

Or maybe not, depending upon how many times a day a week I train.

或者也许不会，取决于我每周每天训练多少次。

But yeah, I think that it's a lot less ...

但是，是的，我认为这要少得多......

I hate to say, but it's a lot less scientific than we want to make it.

我不想这么说，但这远没有我们想要的那么科学。

And as it seems to be coming back, oftentimes, the thing that works for you is really the most important thing because ultimately, getting your ass in there and doing what you do is really the thing that provides the best benefit.

正如它似乎会回来一样，通常情况下，对你有用的事情确实是最重要的事情，因为最终，全身心投入并做你所做的事情确实是提供最大利益的事情。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

And there are many things that I would say are hallmarks of Jeff Cavaliere, but one of them is certainly consistency.

我想说有很多东西是杰夫·卡瓦利埃的标志，但其中之一肯定是一致性。

You make it happen one way or another.

你以某种方式让它发生。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Huge.

巨大的。

Huge.

巨大的。

Consistency really is the determinant.

一致性确实是决定因素。

And I know that that is the hardest part for people that are ...

我知道这对于人们来说是最困难的部分......

And why people tend to look for the shortcut because consistency is the part that becomes the biggest challenge.

为什么人们倾向于寻找捷径，因为一致性是最大的挑战。

Through what I've been trying to encourage here, is if you could find the nutrition approach, if you could find the training approach, if you could try find the training split, if you could try all those things that encourage you to want to go to the gym, you're locked in at the point where you said you actually look forward to going and doing your workout.

我在这里一直试图鼓励的是，如果你能找到营养方法，如果你能找到训练方法，如果你能尝试找到训练间隔，如果你能尝试所有那些鼓励你想去健身房的事情，你就会被锁定在你所说的你真正期待去锻炼的地方。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

I love it.

我喜欢它。

I look forward to ...

我期待着...

Actually, this morning, one of our teammates for the podcast and I got a workout, and halfway through, I just turned him, and I said, "I'll never figure out why that feels so good, but it feels so good.

事实上，今天早上，我和我们的一位播客队友进行了一次训练，训练到一半时，我把他转过来，我说：“我永远不明白为什么感觉这么好，但感觉这么好。

I really enjoy it." And I love to eat, and it lets me, and I love the way it makes me feel afterward.

我真的很喜欢它。”我喜欢吃，它让我，我喜欢它给我带来的感觉。

I don't understand this concept of not enjoying the gym.

我不明白不享受健身房这个概念。

Cardio is a little different.

有氧运动有点不同。

I always loathe the first 10 or 20 minutes of a jog.

我总是讨厌慢跑的前 10 或 20 分钟。

I mildly loathe the middle third.

我有点讨厌中间三分之一。

And by the end, I think this is the greatest thing ever.

到最后，我认为这是有史以来最伟大的事情。

Why don't I do it all the time?

为什么我不一直这样做呢？

And then, that feeling evaporates before the next time I do it.

然后，在我下次这样做之前，这种感觉就消失了。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Yeah.

是的。

Of course, you don't even remember it either.

当然，你也不记得了。

The next time you get on, you hate it again.

下次再上来的时候，你又会讨厌它。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Exactly.

正是如此。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Yeah.

是的。

I think if we had one gift we could give to everybody, it would be the love of fitness.

我想如果我们有一件礼物可以送给每个人，那就是对健身的热爱。

If they could be bestowed the love of fitness, it would change the entire world.

如果能够赋予他们对健身的热爱，那将会改变整个世界。

But I think when you hear things like this that like, "Hey, that will work, and that will work too, and that this will work too," rather than the dogmatic one-way-only approach, which could become discouraging for people, then I think it becomes a little bit uplifting like, "Well, I've never tried that.

但我认为，当你听到这样的话，“嘿，这会起作用，这也会起作用，这也会起作用”，而不是教条式的单向方法，这可能会让人们感到沮丧，然后我认为它会变得有点令人振奋，比如，“嗯，我从来没有尝试过。

I've actually never tried a total body split," or, "I've never tried that style of eating." It becomes encouraging.

事实上，我从来没有尝试过全身分割，”或者，“我从来没有尝试过那种饮食方式。”这变得令人鼓舞。

You might want to explore, and then you might finally get locked in and say, "I really like this." And then you're off and running.

你可能想要探索，然后你可能最终会陷入困境并说：“我真的很喜欢这个。”然后你就可以开始奔跑了。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

That's what I so enjoy about your content.

这就是我非常喜欢你的内容的原因。

We would be remiss if we didn't briefly discuss Jesse.

如果我们不简要讨论一下杰西，那就是我们的失职。

One of the great pleasures for me in watching your content and learning from it over the years is that you took on, you decided to mentor somebody, Jesse.

多年来，我观看您的内容并从中学习的最大乐趣之一是，您决定指导某人，杰西。

And there's some poking fun back and forth between the two of you, which is very amusing.

而且两个人之间还互相调侃，非常有趣。

But I have to say it inspired me to do something early on in developing this podcast, as I have a young intern who has helped me with some of the research, he's interested in science.

但我不得不说，它激励我在开发这个播客的早期做一些事情，因为我有一个年轻的实习生帮助我进行了一些研究，他对科学感兴趣。

He's about to go off to college, but he also got really into fitness.

他即将上大学，但他也非常热衷于健身。

We would watch the videos of you guys.

我们会看你们的视频。

He was helping me get the Instagram content out early on.

他很早就帮我发布了 Instagram 内容。

And one thing that was just, it's such a pleasure to be able to pass along knowledge.

有一件事是公正的，能够传递知识真是一种乐趣。

And of course, I'm learning from him.

当然，我正在向他学习。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Nice.

不错。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

This is always the way it works.

这始终是它的工作方式。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Right, of course.

对，当然。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

We learn from teaching, and we learn from students.

我们向教学学习，向学生学习。

But it's been great to see Jesse's progress.

但很高兴看到杰西的进步。

It's amazing.

太棒了。

I've gotten to meet him in person just now, and he has grown.

我刚刚见到了他本人，他也成长了。

He's changed physically.

他的身体发生了变化。

And I think that you mention a love of fitness.

我认为你提到了对健身的热爱。

I think that one of the best ways to be consistent is to take on the responsibility of teaching others once one has proficiency in something.

我认为保持一致的最好方法之一就是一旦一个人精通某件事，就承担起教导他人的责任。

So, maybe you just tell us a little bit about how that's going.

所以，也许你只是告诉我们一些事情的进展情况。

How is Jesse doing?

杰西怎么样？

And where does he need a little more work?

他哪里还需要多做一点工作？

Where is he thriving?

他在哪里蓬勃发展？

I'm impressed by the progress.

我对进展印象深刻。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Well, physically, we can obviously see the changes.

嗯，从身体上来说，我们可以明显地看到变化。

The list of things to work on is immense.

需要处理的事情非常多。

It's so long for him to continue to improve.

他需要持续进步的时间太长了。

But no, actually, in reality, Jesse ...

但不，事实上，事实上，杰西......

The story of Jesse was that I knew Jesse prior to starting even ATHLEAN-X.

杰西的故事是我在开始 ATHLEAN-X 之前就认识杰西了。

And as a matter of fact, I think the funny thing is the very first video that was ever posted on my channel was a video that he shot as, I don't know, a 13-year-old or something.

事实上，我认为有趣的是我的频道上发布的第一个视频是他拍摄的，我不知道，是一个 13 岁的孩子还是什么的。

And I said, "Can you just film this for a second?" I was over there training members of the family.

我说：“你能拍一下这个吗？”我在那里训练家庭成员。

So, he then went off to college, went into film, realized he had much greener pastures at ATHLEAN-X instead of becoming the next Scorsese or something.

所以，他后来上了大学，进入了电影界，意识到他在 ATHLEAN-X 拥有更美好的前景，而不是成为下一个斯科塞斯之类的。

And he decided to come work with me.

他决定来和我一起工作。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

And the expectations in the beginning were just to edit videos or just to help with various aspects of my day-to-day that I don't think I was equipped to really handle and grow the business anymore.

一开始的期望只是编辑视频或只是帮助我处理日常的各个方面，我认为我不再有能力真正处理和发展业务。

Then look, by virtue of being in that environment, there's an interest.

那么你看，由于处于那个环境中，就有兴趣。

I think if I worked in a gym, I might become interested in working out.

我想如果我在健身房工作，我可能会对锻炼感兴趣。

And though mine is not a commercial gym, it's sitting right behind my office window, there became an interest in wanting to work out a little bit.

虽然我的健身房不是商业健身房，但它就位于我办公室窗户后面，人们开始有兴趣锻炼一下。

And it wasn't even an intentional experiment to put Jesse there.

把杰西放在那里甚至不是一个有意的实验。

I just thought that he's a very likable person.

我只是觉得他是一个非常讨人喜欢的人。

He has a very funny personality, and he's also the everyman.

他的性格非常有趣，而且也是个普通人。

In some ways, as I'm sure maybe you experience sometimes, I'm the guy that ...

在某些方面，我相信你有时会经历过，我是那个......

this comes naturally for me is what people will say.

这对我来说是很自然的，人们会这么说。

This is what you do for a living.

这就是你的谋生之道。

There's an element of disconnect in terms of the relatability because I do do this for a living.

在相关性方面存在脱节的因素，因为我就是以此为生的。

I can't deny that.

我不能否认这一点。

I do work with professional athletes, so there's a level of interest in this above and beyond.

我确实与职业运动员一起工作，所以人们对此有一定程度的兴趣。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

But for him, he's just the kid who wants to train, maybe if he rolls out of bed before 11:00 a.m.

但对他来说，他只是那个想要训练的孩子，也许他可以在上午 11:00 之前起床。

and doesn't have a date on Friday night.

周五晚上没有约会。

But that's the guy everybody could relate to.

但这是每个人都能产生共鸣的人。

And watching him transform, and I love the fact that even the interest level was up and down.

看着他的转变，我喜欢这样一个事实：即使是兴趣水平也有起有落。

It wasn't consistent for him because he was part interested, and then maybe not interested for three months, and then interested, and not.

这对他来说并不一致，因为他有部分感兴趣，然后可能三个月不感兴趣，然后感兴趣，然后就不感兴趣。

And I never pushed it on him.

我从来没有把它强加给他。

Again, this was no orchestrated experiment for me.

再说一遍，这不是我精心策划的实验。

It was just like, if you want to do this, then do this.

就像，如果你想这样做，那就这样做。

And also, from a standpoint of lending my help or expertise to him, like I said with my son, I'm not going to force it on anybody.

而且，从向他提供帮助或专业知识的角度来看，就像我对我儿子说的那样，我不会强迫任何人。

I don't want to do that to anybody.

我不想对任何人这样做。

I don't think that that's ever going to spark that desire for long-term adoption.

我认为这永远不会激发长期采用的愿望。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

So, he got more interested.

于是，他更加感兴趣了。

He started to learn more about it.

他开始更多地了解这件事。

He watches the videos that we're filming.

他观看我们正在拍摄的视频。

He films the videos that we're filming, and he's learning through what I'm saying.

他拍摄了我们正在拍摄的视频，他正在通过我所说的来学习。

He's becoming more of a student of the field.

他越来越成为该领域的学生。

And I have to say, his knowledge in the field has grown with the growth of his physique.

而我不得不说，他在该领域的知识也随着他体格的成长而增长。

And he's put into practice some of the things that I say.

他也将我所说的一些事情付诸实践。

He's put in practice some things he hears other places, and he winds up improving as he goes.

他将在其他地方听到的一些事情付诸实践，最终他不断进步。

And he winds up starting to love this like he never thought he would.

他最终开始爱上这个，就像他从未想过的那样。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

But it's great to see anybody grow.

但很高兴看到有人成长。

And whether that be physically or that be emotionally, or whether that be just in their career, it's great to see somebody grow.

无论是身体上的还是情感上的，或者只是在他们的职业生涯中，很高兴看到有人成长。

And I like to tease him.

而且我很喜欢捉弄他。

Funny admission here.

这里的入场很有趣。

There are times when the jabs that I will throw at him are something that we might know ahead of time of what I'm going to say to him.

有时，我们可能会在我要对他说的话之前就知道我要对他进行的攻击。

People will say, "You're so mean to him.

人们会说：“你对他太刻薄了。

I can't believe it.

我简直不敢相信。

That's so abusive." You know, like, Dude.

这太欺负人了。”你知道，就像，伙计。

Honestly, we laugh after it's over.

老实说，结束后我们都笑了。

It's good.

很好。

We're good.

我们很好。

Of course, but-

当然，但是——

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

He's tougher than he looks is what you're saying.

正如你所说，他比看上去更坚强。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

He's tougher than he looks.

他比看上去更坚强。

Believe me.

相信我。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

And he looks pretty tough now he's got the big beard.

现在他留着大胡子，看起来很硬朗。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

He looks more manly than I do.

他看起来比我更有男子气概。

I can't grow a beard.

我不能留胡子。

I don't.

我不知道。

Yeah.

是的。

Believe me, he's totally alpha, and I'm quickly becoming the second star of this show.

相信我，他完全是阿尔法，而我很快就会成为这个节目的第二位明星。

But he's definitely contributed, and people enjoy his presence for sure.

但他确实做出了贡献，人们也肯定喜欢他的存在。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Yeah, I certainly do.

是的，我当然知道。

And I think that as you pointed out, he's a proxy and a template for everybody.

我认为正如你所指出的，他是每个人的代理人和模板。

We can relate to him because even though I've trained for many years, it's been a struggle through graduate school, postdoc.

我们可以理解他，因为尽管我已经接受了很多年的训练，但读研究生、博士后的过程却很艰难。

Made it happen one way or another, but with more or less attention, and admittedly through waxing and waning levels of motivation, although I am fortunate that I do enjoy it.

以某种方式让它发生，但或多或​​少地受到关注，并且不可否认的是，通过动机水平的起伏，尽管我很幸运我确实喜欢它。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

What I think is nice about it too is that it's a realistic expectation that we set, I think.

我认为它的好处还在于，我认为这是我们设定的现实期望。

In other words, you're showcasing what the journey actually looks like.

换句话说，您正在展示旅程的实际情况。

And he's been on the journey for, again, devotedly for let's say the last year and a half, but on the journey for five years.

比如说，他在过去一年半的时间里，再次投入到这个旅程中，但在这个旅程上已经有五年了。

If I could make the gains that he did starting when I started training at 14, 15.

如果我能取得他在 14 岁、15 岁开始训练时取得的成绩就好了。

And you're saying, "Hey, by 20, you're going to have the strength levels he does, the physique that he does, the knowledge that you've gained," that seems like a blink of an eye now looking back.

你会说，“嘿，到了 20 岁，你就会拥有他那样的力量水平、体格，以及你所获得的知识”，现在回想起来，这似乎只是一眨眼的功夫。

At 46 years old, I'm like, "Holy cow." I think it took me 20 years, 15, 20 years to just even start to get into a groove.

46 岁的我就像，“天哪。”我想我花了 20 年、15 年、20 年才开始进入状态。

For him to do it in a period of five years, it doesn't seem long.

五年的时间对于他来说，似乎并不算长。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Whereas there's people that will criticize his journey like, "Oh, it's just taken so long." There's such an instant gratification that people seek.

然而有些人会批评他的旅程，比如“哦，花了这么长时间。”人们寻求的是一种即时的满足感。

Luckily, that's the minority.

幸运的是，那是少数。

Most people are like, "This is amazing." But I think that it becomes very uplifting because not only is it relatable, but the journey is real, and people can appreciate that.

大多数人都会说：“这太棒了。”但我认为它变得非常令人振奋，因为它不仅具有相关性，而且旅程是真实的，人们可以欣赏这一点。

This is what will happen if you actually put in consistent hard work.

如果您真正持续努力工作，就会发生这种情况。

And you'll watch him transform.

你会看到他的转变。

Go back and watch the videos.

返回并观看视频。

We like to oftentimes throw back to videos where he appeared as smaller Jesse, but also, shy Jesse.

我们经常喜欢回顾他以较小的杰西的身份出现的视频，但同时也是害羞的杰西。

Arms crossed, head down, not making eye contact with the camera, to where now, he's got his own skits and intros.

双臂交叉，低着头，没有与镜头进行目光接触，现在，他有自己的小品和介绍。

It's funny because the confidence, with the growth of physique came confidence too, which is great.

有趣的是，随着体格的增长，自信也随之而来，这很棒。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Absolutely.

绝对的。

Pretty soon, it'll be his world, and we'll all be living in it, as they say.

很快，这将是他的世界，正如他们所说，我们都将生活在其中。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, on behalf of myself and all the listeners, I really want to thank you, first of all, for the discussion today.

首先，我谨代表我自己和所有听众，感谢大家今天的讨论。

I learned an immense amount.

我学到了很多。

Even though I thought I knew your content well, I still learned an immense amount.

尽管我以为我很了解你的内容，但我仍然学到了很多东西。

Many things we could deploy, from when to stretch, how to stretch, the skipping rope.

我们可以部署很多东西，从何时伸展、如何伸展、跳绳。

We talked about nutrition, we talked about heat, cold, training regimens.

我们谈论了营养，我们谈论了热、冷、训练方案。

And what I love about all of this now that you've given us, is that there's a backbone of logic and some consistent themes indeed about consistency.

我喜欢你给我们提供的所有这些，因为它们有逻辑的支柱和一些关于一致性的一致主题。

But the logical backbone, I think, is what will enable people to really show up to the table and stay there for training consistently over time.

但我认为，逻辑支柱是让人们能够真正出现在谈判桌前，并随着时间的推移持续在那里接受培训。

As you said, the gift of fitness is an immense gift.

正如你所说，健身的天赋是一份巨大的天赋。

I can't thank you enough.

我对你感激不尽。

I know you're an incredibly busy human being with kids, and dogs, and a marriage-

我知道你是一个非常忙碌的人，有孩子、狗和婚姻——

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

It was my pleasure.

这是我的荣幸。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

...

...

and a thriving business.

和蓬勃发展的事业。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

I'm happy I was able to make it work because I've been watching your stuff for a while, and I really love the science of it.

我很高兴能够让它发挥作用，因为我已经观察你的东西一段时间了，而且我真的很喜欢它的科学性。

I like the way you think.

我喜欢你的想法。

And I'm just really fortunate that I was able to do it.

我真的很幸运我能够做到这一点。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Well, I feel very gratified in hearing that and honored to have you here.

嗯，听到这个消息我感到非常高兴，也很荣幸您能来到这里。

So, thank you so much.

所以，非常感谢你。

Jeff Cavaliere:

杰夫·卡瓦利埃：

Thank you.

谢谢你。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

Thank you for joining me for my discussion with Jeff Cavaliere.

感谢您参加我与 Jeff Cavaliere 的讨论。

I hope you found it as interesting and as actionable as I did.

我希望您像我一样发现它有趣且可行。

If you're learning from and are enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.

如果您正在学习并喜欢这个播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。

That's the best zero-cost way to support us.

这是支持我们的最佳零成本方式。

In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on Spotify and on Apple.

此外，请订阅 Spotify 和 Apple 上的播客。

That's also a terrific way to support us.

这也是支持我们的好方法。

And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review.

在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您都可以给我们五星级的评价。

If you have comments and feedback, the best place to leave that is at the comment section on the YouTube channel.

如果您有意见和反馈，最好的地方是 YouTube 频道的评论部分。

There, if you have suggestions about specific episodes, or you have specific questions, or you have suggestions about guests that you'd like us to interview on the Huberman Lab podcast, we read those comments.

在那里，如果您对特定剧集有建议，或者您有具体问题，或者您对希望我们在 Huberman Lab 播客上采访的嘉宾有建议，我们会阅读这些评论。

And indeed, we take them to heart when developing future content.

事实上，我们在开发未来内容时会牢记它们。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

In addition, please check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning of today's podcast.

另外，请查看今天播客开头提到的赞助商。

That's the best way to support this podcast.

这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。

And for those of you that are interested in supplements discussed today or on previous episodes of the Huberman Lab podcast, again, we partnered with Momentous supplements.

对于那些对今天讨论的补充剂或 Huberman Lab 播客前几集感兴趣的人，我们再次与 Momentous 补充剂合作。

You can find the supplements related to this podcast at livemomentous.com/huberman.

您可以在 livemomentous.com/huberman 找到与此播客相关的补充内容。

If you're not already following us on social media, please do so.

如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我们，请这样做。

We are Huberman Lab on both Twitter and Instagram.

我们在 Twitter 和 Instagram 上都是 Huberman Lab。

There, I cover science and science-based tools, some of which overlap with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, and others of which are distinct from the information covered on the Huberman Lab podcast.

在那里，我介绍了科学和基于科学的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，而另一些则与胡伯曼实验室播客中涵盖的信息不同。

Again, it's Huberman Lab on Instagram, and also, Huberman Lab on Twitter.

同样，Instagram 上是 Huberman Lab，Twitter 上也是 Huberman Lab。

Andrew Huberman:

安德鲁·休伯曼：

If you're not already subscribed to our so-called Neural Network Newsletter, please do so.

如果您还没有订阅我们所谓的神经网络通讯，请订阅。

You can do that by going to hubermanlab.com.

您可以访问 hubermanlab.com 来完成此操作。

Go to the menu and click on Newsletter.

转到菜单并单击新闻通讯。

It costs nothing to sign up or to receive the newsletters.

注册或接收时事通讯无需任何费用。

They come out about once a month, and they contain summaries of actionable protocols, links to relevant scientific research.

它们大约每月发布一次，包含可操作协议的摘要以及相关科学研究的链接。

We do not share your email with anybody, and our privacy policy is made clear at that site.

我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件，并且我们的隐私政策已在该网站上明确说明。

In fact, if you'd like to see some previous newsletters or download those, you can download those as PDFs without having to sign up at all, simply by going to hubermanlab.com.

事实上，如果您想查看或下载一些以前的时事通讯，只需访问 hubermanlab.com，即可将其下载为 PDF 格式，而无需注册。

Go again into the newsletter tab under the menu, and there you'll see, for instance, a toolkit for sleep that lists out all the things you can do to enhance your sleep.

再次进入菜单下的新闻通讯选项卡，您会看到一个睡眠工具包，其中列出了您可以采取的所有措施来改善睡眠。

It lists out the so-called neuroplasticity superprotocol for enhancing learning, and teaching, and so on.

它列出了所谓的神经可塑性超级协议，用于增强学习和教学等。

Again, that's the Neural Network Newsletter at hubermanlab.com.

同样，这是 hubermanlab.com 上的神经网络通讯。

And last, but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.

最后但同样重要的是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。

PART 5 OF 5 ENDS

第 5 部分（共 5 部分）结束