Improve Energy & Longevity by Optimizing Mitochondria | Dr. Martin Picard
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's the deal?
这是怎么回事？
Can people reverse the graying of their hair by reducing their stress?
人们可以通过减轻压力来扭转头发变白的趋势吗？
Can people accelerate the graying of their hair by stressing more?
人们会因为承受更大的压力而加速头发变白吗？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Likely both are true, yes.
可能两者都是真的，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And I think what we discovered is that hair graying, at least temporarily, is reversible.
我认为我们发现头发变白，至少暂时变白，是可以逆转的。
This was surprising because it goes against this notion that aging is a linear process that just happens over time no matter what you do.
这是令人惊讶的，因为它违背了这样的观念：衰老是一个线性过程，无论你做什么，都会随着时间的推移而发生。
And here we show no, actually.
实际上，我们在这里展示了“不”。
A hallmark of aging, which is depigmentation, losing color in your beard and your hair, is something that happens to almost everyone, but at different stages of life and so on.
衰老的一个标志是色素脱失，胡须和头发失去颜色，几乎每个人都会发生这种情况，但发生在人生的不同阶段等等。
And then on the same person, and the reason we got into this was that this felt like the perfect experiment.
然后在同一个人身上，我们进行这个实验的原因是，这感觉像是一个完美的实验。
Every hair has the same genome.
每根头发都有相同的基因组。
They're all genetically identical twins.
他们都是基因相同的双胞胎。
Right?
正确的？
And they're all exposed to the same exercise regime, the same food, the same stress levels.
他们都接受相同的锻炼方式、相同的食物和相同的压力水平。
But yet some hairs go gray when you're late 30s, and then some hairs go gray when you're in your 80s.
但有些头发在 30 多岁的时候就变白了，而有些头发在 80 多岁的时候就变白了。
What the hell's happening?
到底发生了什么？
If we could figure this out, maybe we can understand why different people age at different rates.
如果我们能弄清楚这一点，也许我们就能理解为什么不同的人会以不同的速度衰老。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Because it's very clear that there's no more than 10% of how long you live that's genetically driven.
因为很明显，基因决定的寿命不超过 10%。
The best studies put this at around 7%.
最好的研究表明这一比例约为 7%。
7% of longevity is genetically inherited maybe, and then about 90% is not.
7%的长寿可能是遗传的，而大约90%则不是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
欢迎来到胡伯曼实验室播客，我们在这里讨论科学和基于科学的日常生活工具。
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
我是安德鲁·胡伯曼，斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学和眼科教授。
My guest today is Dr. Martin Picard.
今天我的客人是马丁·皮卡德博士。
Dr. Martin Picard is a professor of behavioral medicine at Columbia University.
马丁·皮卡德博士是哥伦比亚大学行为医学教授。
He is also a leading expert on how your daily behaviors and your mode of thinking, meaning your psychology, change energy production in your cells and can accelerate or reverse biological aging.
他也是研究日常行为和思维方式（即心理）如何改变细胞能量产生并加速或逆转生物衰老的领先专家。
Most people have heard of mitochondria as the energy-producing organelles within their cells, and of course, that's linked to what we call metabolism and metabolic health.
大多数人都听说过线粒体是细胞内产生能量的细胞器，当然，这与我们所说的新陈代谢和代谢健康有关。
And of course, most people understand that eating properly, exercising, and sleep are critical for metabolic health.
当然，大多数人都知道，正确饮食、锻炼和睡眠对于代谢健康至关重要。
But it turns out that's only part of the story.
但事实证明这只是故事的一部分。
As Dr. Picard explains, mitochondria don't just make energy.
正如皮卡德博士解释的那样，线粒体不仅仅产生能量。
They act as sort of antennas to link your psychological experiences to your organ health, your rate of aging, and your sense of vigor, meaning your mental and physical readiness.
它们就像天线一样，将你的心理体验与你的器官健康、衰老速度和活力感（意味着你的身心准备状态）联系起来。
He explains that how well your mitochondria work in different organs and brain areas reflects what specific forms of exercise you do, as well as how you think and how you manage stress.
他解释说，线粒体在不同器官和大脑区域的工作情况反映了您进行的具体运动形式，以及您的思维方式和管理压力的方式。
Today, he explains the things that you can do to enhance mitochondrial function that go beyond the typical get sleep, eat right, and exercise advice.
今天，他解释了增强线粒体功能可以采取的措施，这些措施超出了典型的睡眠、正确饮食和锻炼建议。
His lab has shown that aging is not linear.
他的实验室表明衰老不是线性的。
It's not just a progression from youth to death where your mitochondria decline over that time.
这不仅仅是从年轻到死亡的过程，线粒体会随着时间的推移而衰退。
At different ages and stages, mitochondrial health drops off like a cliff, but there are critical things that you can do in terms of how you eat, your mindset, and exercise that can offset those changes.
在不同的年龄和阶段，线粒体的健康状况会像悬崖一样下降，但你可以在饮食、心态和锻炼方面采取一些关键的措施来抵消这些变化。
His lab also famously showed that graying of hair is indeed related to stress and is also fortunately reversible.
他的实验室还著名地表明，头发变白确实与压力有关，而且幸运的是，它是可逆的。
By the end of today's episode, you will not only have had a master class in mitochondria, he explains mitochondria with immense clarity so that you really will understand how these incredible organelles work to produce energy and as these sort of antennas to direct that energy from outside you and by the things you do, and by the end of today's episode, you'll also have a lot of actionable items that you can apply toward your health and to offset aging.
在今天的节目结束时，你不仅会上一堂关于线粒体的大师课，他还非常清晰地解释了线粒体，以便你真正了解这些令人难以置信的细胞器如何工作来产生能量，以及这些天线如何通过你所做的事情从外部引导能量，在今天的节目结束时，你还将拥有许多可操作的项目，你可以将它们应用于你的健康和抵消衰老。
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
在开始之前，我想强调一下，这个播客与我在斯坦福大学的教学和研究角色是分开的。
It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
然而，我的愿望和努力的一部分是向公众提供有关科学和科学相关工具的零成本消费者信息。
In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.
为了与这个主题保持一致，今天的节目确实有赞助商。
And now for my discussion with Dr. Martin Picard.
现在我与马丁·皮卡德博士进行了讨论。
Dr. Martin Picard, welcome.
马丁·皮卡德博士，欢迎光临。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Your work is so relevant nowadays.
你的工作在当今如此重要。
I suppose it was relevant always, but these days we hear so much about mitochondria.
我想这始终是相关的，但现在我们听到了很多关于线粒体的信息。
Most people have perhaps heard of mitochondria.
大多数人可能听说过线粒体。
They think the powerhouse of the cell, but you're going to tell us that it's a lot more than that.
他们认为细胞是动力源，但你会告诉我们，它的作用远不止于此。
And I should say right off the bat that if people think that perhaps a discussion about these little organelles we call mitochondria is not for them, keep in mind, Martin's laboratory was the one that discovered that you can indeed reverse the graying of your hair, that graying of hair is not a prerequisite of aging.
我应该立即说，如果人们认为也许对这些我们称之为线粒体的小细胞器的讨论不适合他们，请记住，马丁的实验室是发现确实可以逆转头发变白的实验室，头发变白并不是衰老的先决条件。
There are some other ways that hair grays.
头发变白还有其他一些原因。
So we'll get to that later.
我们稍后再讨论这个问题。
Super interesting work.
超级有趣的工作。
I have a million questions for you.
我有一百万个问题要问你。
Let's start off with the most important and most basic question, which is what is this thing that we call energy?
让我们从最重要、最基本的问题开始，那就是我们所说的能量是什么？
There's electrical energy.
有电能。
We know the sun gives us energy, et cetera.
我们知道太阳为我们提供能量等等。
But when we're talking about the energy of life-
但当我们谈论生命能量时——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
physical and mental vigor, the feeling that we want to do something as opposed to have to force ourselves to do it, what is this at the organism and cellular level?
身体和精神的活力，我们想要做某事而不是强迫自己去做的感觉，这在有机体和细胞水平上是什么？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Even physicists don't agree on what energy is.
即使物理学家对于能量是什么也没有达成一致。
And there has been debates.
并且一直存在争论。
Richard Feynman, who was this amazing science communicator physicist, said we don't even know what energy is and what's the best way to define it, because there are all of these forms, thermal energy, heat, right?
理查德·费曼（Richard Feynman）是一位了不起的科学传播者物理学家，他说我们甚至不知道能量是什么以及定义它的最佳方法是什么，因为有所有这些形式，热能，热量，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Light energy, electromagnetic, kinetic energy, movement, speed, right?
光能、电磁能、动能、运动、速度，对吗？
Potential energy.
势能。
So energy kind of manifests in all of these different ways.
所以能量以所有这些不同的方式表现出来。
So in a nutshell, I think the best definition I've heard from my wife, Nirosha, who's a biophysicist, energy is the potential for change.
简而言之，我认为我从我的妻子 Nirosha 那里听到的最好的定义，她是一位生物物理学家，能量就是改变的潜力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Right?
对吗？
And that applies to any form of energy you can think about.
这适用于你能想到的任何形式的能量。
It's the potential for change, for changing something in the system.
这是改变的潜力，改变系统中的某些东西。
And that's, I think, an accurate description of thermal energy.
我认为这是对热能的准确描述。
If something is frozen solid, there's no potential for moving something.
如果某物被冻结成固体，就不可能移动某物。
We need to be at 37 Celsius, right, the human body It gives us the potential to move and muscles to contract and our biology to function.
我们需要处于 37 摄氏度，对吧，人体才能够运动，肌肉收缩，我们的生物体才能发挥作用。
So this is just one example where there's a sweet spot of energy, or there needs to be some thermal energy.
因此，这只是能量最佳点或需要一些热能的一个例子。
You need to be a little warm to be alive.
你需要一点温暖才能活着。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
So the potential for change, and then it manifests in all these beautiful ways, and it's something that flows.
因此，改变的潜力，然后它以所有这些美丽的方式显现出来，而且是流动的。
A key property of energy is something that has the ability to flow and to transform.
能量的一个关键属性是具有流动和转化的能力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
So you can never create nor destroy energy.
所以你永远无法创造或毁灭能量。
That's a fundamental law of thermodynamics.
这是热力学的基本定律。
But energy always transforms.
但能量总是会变化的。
So you can transform heat into motion.
因此您可以将热量转化为运动。
In the steam engine, for example, through pressure, another form of energy.
例如，在蒸汽机中，通过压力，这是另一种形式的能量。
Or you can transform electricity into a picture on your screen.
或者您可以将电力转化为屏幕上的图片。
That's what your computer does, transforms your raw energy electricity into a picture, a sound.
这就是你的计算机所做的，将你的原始电能转化为图像、声音。
So that's what happens all around us.
这就是我们周围发生的事情。
It's all energy moving, transforming.
所有的能量都在移动、转化。
Energy from the sun, this outer nuclear reactor in outer space beams energy at us.
来自太阳的能量，这个位于外太空的外部核反应堆向我们发射能量。
And then what plants do is they take that energy, transform light into biochemistry.
然后植物所做的就是吸收能量，将光转化为生物化学。
And then you get energy, which used to be immaterial, that gets crystallized into biochemistry.
然后你就得到了能量，它曾经是无形的，现在被结晶成生物化学。
And then we, human beings, animals, eat that biochemical energy, and then in our mitochondria, that energy gets transformed.
然后我们，人类，动物，吃掉这种生化能量，然后在我们的线粒体中，这种能量被转化。
Again, the potential for change.
再次，改变的潜力。
And then that biochemical energy gets transformed into an electrochemical gradient, like you charge your little batteries, your mitochondria.
然后，生化能量转化为电化学梯度，就像你给你的小电池、线粒体充电一样。
And then that's another form of energy, which again is a potential for change.
这就是另一种形式的能量，这又是一种改变的潜力。
And then you can make ATP with this.
然后你就可以用它来制造 ATP。
You can make reactive oxygen species.
您可以制造活性氧。
You can make hormones.
你可以制造荷尔蒙。
You can-- All of the beautiful things that mitochondria do.
你可以——线粒体所做的所有美丽的事情。
So energy is that potential for change that has all of these different forms that continuously transforms.
因此，能量是一种变化的潜力，它具有所有这些不断变化的不同形式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing.
太棒了。
Or you can use your brain to create technologies that create other forms of energy.
或者你可以用你的大脑来创造创造其他形式能源的技术。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or, excuse me, transform other forms of energy.
或者，对不起，转化其他形式的能量。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
And your question was about the human energy, vitality, the energy to do something.
你的问题是关于人类的能量、活力、做某事的能量。
And that's, I think, another manifestation of energy.
我认为，这是能量的另一种表现。
As energy flows through this thing that we call biology or the human body, it kind of moves us into action, right?
当能量流过我们称之为生物体或人体的东西时，它会促使我们采取行动，对吗？
And we know from first principles that the basis for human experiences, the mind and our ability to be inspired to feel positive things or to feel negative things, depends on the flow of energy, right?
我们从基本原理中知道，人类经验、思想以及我们受到启发去感受积极事物或感受消极事物的能力的基础取决于能量的流动，对吗？
The difference between a thinking, feeling, conscious person having experiences and being able to go to the gym and lift, and a cadaver is really it's not the size of the muscles, the number of cells, the nucleus, the genes, the mitochondria.
一个有思想、有感觉、有意识、有经验、能够去健身房举重的人与尸体之间的区别实际上并不在于肌肉的大小、细胞的数量、细胞核、基因、线粒体。
It's none of this.
这都不是。
The difference between a living person and a cadaver is the flow of energy.
活人和尸体的区别在于能量的流动。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
When you die, all of the structure, the physical stuff remains as is, but energy stops flowing.
当你死后，所有的结构、物质都保持原样，但能量停止流动。
If you stop breathing, if your heart stops beating, energy flow stops, and then energy transformation, therefore, can't happen, and then that's what we call death.
如果你停止呼吸，如果你的心脏停止跳动，能量流动停止，那么能量转化就不可能发生，那就是我们所说的死亡。
And then the mind dies, right?
然后心就死了，对吗？
You don't have an experience anymore.
你已经没有经验了。
And so the flow of energy, I think, has to be the basis not only of life, which we know to be correct, but also the basis of human experiences.
因此，我认为，能量的流动不仅必须成为生命的基础（我们知道这是正确的），而且必须成为人类经验的基础。
And what we experience as energy.
以及我们所体验到的能量。
We think about energy, we crave energy, and we know, and the way we talk about this person has really good energy, or this thing really energized me, or "I had this great idea," your friend was telling you, "I had this great idea.
我们思考能量，我们渴望能量，我们知道，我们谈论这个人的方式确实有很好的能量，或者这件事真的给了我能量，或者“我有一个好主意，”你的朋友告诉你，“我有这个好主意。
I'm buzzing, man."
我正在嗡嗡作响，伙计。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
What's that buzzing thing?
那个嗡嗡响的东西是什么？
It is a real experience, and most people will have had the experience of feeling really excited about something, right?
这是一种真实的体验，大多数人都会有过对某件事感到非常兴奋的经历，对吗？
A new idea, a new person, and then you have butterflies, and there are emotions going on in your body.
一个新的想法，一个新的人，然后你就会紧张起来，你的身体里就会产生情绪。
I suspect emotions, the best kind of first principles definition of an emotion is energy in motion.
我怀疑情绪，情绪的最佳第一原理定义是运动中的能量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And we can talk more about what we experience in terms of energy, but I think it's pretty clear we don't experience energy per se.
我们可以更多地谈论我们在能量方面的体验，但我认为很明显我们本身并没有体验到能量。
You don't have a direct experience, an empirical access to how much fat you have in your body.
你没有直接的经验，没有经验地了解你体内有多少脂肪。
There are hormones that communicate, and how much energy is in your liver, or how much heat is in something.
有一些激素可以传达信息，以及您的肝脏中有多少能量，或者某物中有多少热量。
What you feel, what you experience is a change in energy.
你所感受到的、你所经历的都是能量的变化。
When energy moves, you feel that.
当能量移动时，你会感觉到。
Right?
正确的？
And I suspect that's what emotions are.
我怀疑这就是情绪。
There's a movement of energy.
有能量的运动。
Something shifts, and then you experience that.
有些事情发生了变化，然后你就会经历到。
A bit like if you're in a car and your eyes are closed, and you're going constant speed, kinetic energy, you have no way of knowing from first experience if you're going at 100 miles an hour, 10 miles an hour, or if you're standing still.
有点像如果你在车里，闭上眼睛，以恒定的速度、动能行驶，你无法从第一次经验中知道你是以每小时 100 英里、每小时 10 英里的速度行驶，还是静止不动。
These are very different energetic quantities.
这些是非常不同的能量量。
The kinetic energy.
动能。
What you do feel is acceleration and deceleration.
你感受到的是加速和减速。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
You feel the delta in energy.
你感受到能量的增量。
The change in energy.
能量的变化。
Acceleration, deceleration.
加速、减速。
Same with temperature.
与温度相同。
If you touch something and it's body temperature, the same temperature as your hand, you don't feel it.
如果你触摸某物，它的温度与你的手的温度相同，你就感觉不到它。
You don't feel room temperature or body temperature.
您感觉不到室温或体温。
What you feel if you touch something that's cooler than your body, what you're feeling is not the temperature of what you're touching.
如果你触摸比你身体凉爽的东西，你的感觉并不是你所触摸的东西的温度。
You're feeling your temperature leaving your body.
你感觉到你的温度离开了你的身体。
It's the heat of your body leaving through conduction towards this, and then that's what you experience.
是你身体的热量通过传导而离开，然后这就是你所经历的。
And if you touch something that's hot, you're not feeling the energy of the thing.
如果你触摸热的东西，你就感觉不到该东西的能量。
You're feeling the heat that's coming into your body.
你感觉到热量进入你的身体。
So you feel that delta and that change, and that's how human perception also works.
所以你会感觉到增量和变化，这就是人类感知的运作方式。
We're able to see colors, to see light.
我们能够看到颜色，看到光。
You've studied the visual system a lot.
您已经对视觉系统进行了很多研究。
Fundamentally the ability of the eye of the retina to perceive, to sense light requires that you bring photons that are beaming from whatever source short, long wavelength, you need to bring them into stillness.
从根本上来说，视网膜的眼睛感知、感知光的能力要求你从任何短波长、长波长的光源发出光子，你需要让它们静止。
You need to resist the flow of photons.
你需要抵抗光子的流动。
And then so you change the speed of the photon, and it's that change in energy.
然后你改变光子的速度，这就是能量的变化。
You get kinetic energy, speed of light and then boom, when the delta V, the change in speed happens, this is when you can trigger a calcium release and then molecular series of events and action potential and so in order to see, you need to resist the flow of photons.
你得到动能，光速，然后繁荣，当δV，速度变化发生时，这时你可以触发钙释放，然后触发一系列分子事件和动作电位，所以为了看到，你需要抵抗光子流。
You need to resist energy movement, and then that triggers a transformation.
你需要抵制能量运动，然后就会引发转变。
Same for hearing.
听力也一样。
We hear, and I hear your voice, because my eardrum resists the pressure waves that you're producing.
我们听到，我听到你的声音，因为我的耳膜抵抗你产生的压力波。
So your energy is being channeled and projected through the air as sound waves, another form of energy, and then I'm feeling you through your energy that's carried through the air, and then because my eardrum resists the pressure wave that you're producing, and then it's that resistance and that change, that delta again in speed by resisting the sound waves coming from you, by resisting your energy, now I can perceive them.
所以你的能量以声波的形式在空气中传导和投射，这是另一种形式的能量，然后我通过空气中携带的能量感觉到你，然后因为我的耳膜抵抗你产生的压力波，然后就是这种阻力和变化，通过抵抗来自你的声波，通过抵抗你的能量，速度再次出现增量，现在我可以感知它们。
And then there are little ossicles in the ear that transmit what used to be pressure waves into now mechanical motion and then into fluid into the inner ear and then cilia that move and then ions that come in, then eventually they get transformed to electricity.
然后耳朵里有小小骨，将过去的压力波传输成现在的机械运动，然后将液体传输到内耳，然后纤毛移动，然后离子进入，最后它们转化为电力。
So again it's one form of energy, pressure waves turn into electricity, and then the brain uses electricity as a form of energy.
所以这又是一种能量形式，压力波转化为电能，然后大脑使用电作为一种能量形式。
There are many.
有许多。
But that electricity is just so amenable to computation, processing, and integration.
但电力非常适合计算、处理和集成。
So once you have this common energetic language for sight, for hearing, for touch and smell and taste, then you can integrate that.
因此，一旦你拥有了这种共同的视觉、听觉、触觉、嗅觉和味觉的能量语言，那么你就可以将其整合起来。
We perceive energy transformation and change in energy.
我们感知能量的转化和能量的变化。
We don't perceive energy per se.
我们感知不到能量本身。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Helix Sleep.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商 Helix Sleep。
Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to your unique sleep needs.
Helix Sleep 生产根据您独特的睡眠需求定制的床垫和枕头。
Now, I've spoken many times before on the Huberman Lab podcast and elsewhere about the fact that getting a great night's sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance.
我之前在 Huberman Lab 播客和其他地方多次谈到过这样一个事实：睡个好觉是心理健康、身体健康和表现的基础。
Now, the mattress you sleep on makes a huge difference in terms of the quality of sleep that you get each night.
现在，您所睡的床垫会对您每晚的睡眠质量产生巨大影响。
How soft it is, how firm it is, how breathable it is, the temperature all play into your comfort and needs to be tailored to your unique sleep needs.
它的柔软度、硬度、透气度、温度都会影响您的舒适度，并且需要根据您独特的睡眠需求进行定制。
If you go to the Helix website, you'll take a brief two-minute quiz, and it will ask you questions such as, do you tend to sleep on your back, your side, or your stomach?
如果您访问 Helix 网站，您将接受一个两分钟的简短测验，它会问您诸如此类的问题：您倾向于仰卧、侧卧还是俯卧？
Maybe you don't know.
也许你不知道。
But it will also ask you, do you tend to run hot or cold during the night or the early part of the night, et cetera?
但它也会问你，你在夜间或半夜时会感到热还是冷，等等？
Things of that sort.
诸如此类的事情。
Maybe you know the answers to those questions, maybe you don't, but either way, Helix will match you to the ideal mattress for you.
也许您知道这些问题的答案，也许您不知道，但无论哪种方式，Helix 都会为您匹配理想的床垫。
For me, that turned out to be the Dusk mattress, D-U-S-K.
对我来说，这就是 Dusk 床垫，D-U-S-K。
I started sleeping on the Dusk mattress about three and a half years ago, and it's been far and away the best sleep that I've ever had.
大约三年半前，我开始睡在 Dusk 床垫上，这无疑是我睡过的最好的睡眠。
It's absolutely clear to me that having a mattress that's right for you does improve one's sleep.
我非常清楚，拥有适合您的床垫确实可以改善睡眠。
If you'd like to try Helix, you can go to helixsleep.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Helix，可以访问 helixsleep.com/huberman。
Take that two-minute sleep quiz, and Helix will match you to a mattress that is customized for you.
参加两分钟的睡眠测验，Helix 将为您匹配一张为您定制的床垫。
Right now, Helix is giving up to 20% off sitewide.
目前，Helix 在全场范围内提供高达 20% 的折扣。
Helix has also teamed up with TrueMed, which allows you to use your HSA/FSA dollars to shop Helix's award-winning mattresses.
Helix 还与 TrueMed 合作，允许您使用 HSA/FSA 美元购买 Helix 屡获殊荣的床垫。
Again, that's helixsleep.com/huberman to get up to 20% off.
再次强调，helixsleep.com/huberman 提供高达 20% 的折扣。
Today's episode is also brought to us by Lingo.
今天的节目也是Lingo给我们带来的。
Glucose is a key player in how our body functions, not just in the long term, but in every moment of our lives.
葡萄糖在我们身体的运作中发挥着关键作用，不仅从长远来看，而且在我们生命中的每时每刻都如此。
That's because it is the major fuel for our cells, especially our brain cells.
那是因为它是我们细胞，尤其是脑细胞的主要燃料。
Glucose directly impacts our brain function, mood, and energy levels, and it may even affect our levels of tenacity and willpower.
葡萄糖直接影响我们的大脑功能、情绪和能量水平，甚至可能影响我们的坚韧和意志力水平。
This is why I use the continuous glucose monitor from Lingo.
这就是我使用 Lingo 连续血糖监测仪的原因。
I absolutely love it, and I'm thrilled to have them as a sponsor of the podcast.
我非常喜欢它，我很高兴他们成为播客的赞助商。
Lingo helps me track my glucose in real time to see how the foods I eat and the actions I take impact my glucose.
Lingo 帮助我实时跟踪我的血糖，以了解我吃的食物和我采取的行动如何影响我的血糖。
When glucose in your body spikes or crashes, your cognitive and physical performance do too.
当您体内的葡萄糖激增或崩溃时，您的认知和身体表现也会随之增加。
In fact, large glucose peaks and valleys lead to brain fog, fatigue, irritability, and hunger.
事实上，大的葡萄糖峰值和谷值会导致脑雾、疲劳、烦躁和饥饿。
What you eat, of course, plays a major role in your glucose.
当然，你吃的东西对你的血糖起着重要作用。
Some foods cause sharp spikes and big crashes, and others do not.
有些食物会导致急剧的峰值和严重的崩溃，而另一些则不会。
But not everyone is the same in terms of how they respond to particular foods.
但并不是每个人对特定食物的反应都是一样的。
Seeing your glucose in real time helps you build eating and other habits that support metabolic health, mental clarity, and sustained energy.
实时查看您的血糖有助于您养成饮食和其他习惯，从而支持代谢健康、思维清晰和持续精力充沛。
Lingo has helped me to better understand what foods to eat, when to eat, and how things like a brief walk after a meal can help keep my glucose stable and much more.
Lingo 帮助我更好地了解该吃什么食物、何时吃以及饭后短暂散步等活动如何帮助我保持血糖稳定等等。
If you'd like to try Lingo, Lingo is offering Huberman Podcast listeners in the US 10% off a four-week Lingo plan.
如果您想尝试 Lingo，Lingo 将为美国的 Huberman 播客听众提供为期 4 周的 Lingo 计划 10% 的折扣。
Terms and conditions apply.
条款和条件适用。
Visit hellolingo.com/huberman for more information.
请访问 hellolingo.com/huberman 了解更多信息。
The Lingo glucose system is for users 18 and older, not on insulin.
Lingo 葡萄糖系统适用于 18 岁及以上的用户，不适用于胰岛素使用者。
It is not intended for the diagnosis of diseases, including diabetes.
它不适用于诊断疾病，包括糖尿病。
Individual responses may vary.
个人反应可能有所不同。
Your description brings to mind a number of things, but years ago, a colleague of mine who unfortunately now has passed, stopped me in the hallway at Stanford.
你的描述让我想起了很多事情，但几年前，我的一位同事（不幸的是现在已经去世了）在斯坦福大学的走廊里拦住了我。
This was Ben Barres, my postdoc advisor, later my colleague as a faculty member.
这是本·巴雷斯（Ben Barres），我的博士后导师，后来成为我的教员同事。
He said, "Why do we have so much less energy as we get older?" And I said, "Well, that's probably not a concern with you, Ben." He was known for having tremendous amounts of energy.
他说：“为什么随着年龄的增长，我们的精力会越来越少？”我说：“好吧，这可能不关你的事，本。”他以精力充沛而闻名。
He probably only slept four or five hours a night.
他每晚大概只睡四五个小时。
But in any case, I said, "I don't know." And he goes, "Well, how come no one's working on that?" Yeah.
但无论如何，我说：“我不知道。”他说：“好吧，为什么没有人在做这件事呢？”是的。
"Why are we working on all this other stupid stuff?" And I won't tell you what he listed off because some of it was stuff in his laboratory.
“我们为什么要做这些愚蠢的事情？”我不会告诉你他列出了什么，因为其中一些是他实验室里的东西。
And I said, "Well, that stuff's interesting, too." He goes, "But nothing is more interesting than why we have less energy as we get older, except perhaps why it is that the brain can't change as readily when we're young as opposed to older." You said something Very important to underscore and that I'd like to get into a bit more, which is you said, or your partner said, energy is the potential for change, and you mentioned emotions, they stir us, right?
我说：“嗯，那东西也很有趣。”他说：“但没有什么比为什么随着年龄的增长我们的精力会越来越少更有趣的了，也许除了为什么我们年轻时的大脑不像年老时那样容易改变。”你说了一些非常重要的事情需要强调，我想多说一点，你说，或者你的伴侣说，能量是改变的潜力，你提到了情绪，它们激起了我们，对吧？
And that that feeling, especially of positive anticipation-
那种感觉，尤其是积极的期待——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is so much of what we live for.
是我们生活的大部分目的。
In fact, the signature feature of major depression is lack of any idea that there is a future worth living into.
事实上，重度抑郁症的标志性特征是缺乏对值得生活的未来的任何想法。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Apathy.
冷漠。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So yeah, apathy, et cetera.
所以是的，冷漠等等。
Whereas vitality and excitement and everything good about life is about wanting to know what comes next.
而生命力、兴奋和生活中一切美好的事物都在于想要知道接下来会发生什么。
So if we take a biophysical to cellular to psychological set of steps here, we would say that somehow energy is converted into this internal vibration, which we call emotions, that let us physically sense into a future.
因此，如果我们在这里采取从生物物理到细胞再到心理学的一系列步骤，我们会说能量以某种方式转化为这种内部振动，我们称之为情感，让我们在身体上感知未来。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Could be even a negative emotion, but it still senses into a future.
甚至可能是一种负面情绪，但它仍然能感知到未来。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then you give this example, very dramatic example, but I believe appropriate, of a cadaver, where all the material is still there right after death, before it degrades, right?
然后你举了一个例子，一个非常戏剧性的例子，但我认为是合适的，是一具尸体，所有的材料在死后、降解之前仍然存在，对吗？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it can't move, and therefore, there is no future, period.
但它无法移动，因此，没有未来。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And it can't sense.
而且感觉不到。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a very different way of thinking about death.
这是一种非常不同的思考死亡的方式。
So let's talk about psychological energy and physical energy that we call vitality.
那么我们来谈谈心理能量和身体能量，我们称之为活力。
And if you would, this is a bit of a challenge, but could you perhaps use that as an opportunity to teach us about these incredible organelles that we call mitochondria?
如果你愿意的话，这有点挑战，但你能否以此为契机向我们介绍这些令人难以置信的细胞器，我们称之为线粒体？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
I use a slide often as an opening slide when I give presentations to academics or non-academics, which is a mitocentric view of the world.
当我向学者或非学者进行演示时，我经常使用幻灯片作为开场幻灯片，这是一种以线粒体为中心的世界观。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Right?
对吗？
At some point, we realized that the Earth was not the center of the world, and then we switched over to a different model of the universe.
在某个时刻，我们意识到地球不是世界的中心，然后我们转向了不同的宇宙模型。
So my sense is we need to do something similar in biomedicine.
所以我的感觉是我们需要在生物医学领域做类似的事情。
We still have, I think in most people's mind, especially the older generations, a very gene-centric, nucleus-centric view of biology, that the genes are there, and then central dogma, right?
我认为在大多数人，尤其是老一辈人的心目中，我们仍然有一种非常以基因为中心、以细胞核为中心的生物学观点，认为基因就在那里，然后是中心教条，对吗？
The genes drive RNA, drive protein, and then drive phenotype.
基因驱动RNA，驱动蛋白质，然后驱动表型。
And we know that that's not the full picture.
我们知道这还不是全部。
And phenotypes.
和表型。
For example, in genetically identical mice.
例如，在基因相同的小鼠中。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
They're mice that all have the same genome, and some are very anxious, and some are super chill.
它们是具有相同基因组的老鼠，有些非常焦虑，有些则超级冷漠。
It can't be encoded in the genes somehow.
它不能以某种方式编码在基因中。
We found recently that actually there are differences in mitochondria, and part of the reason why these animals behaviorally are different, maybe half of the variance, half of the inter-individual differences, what makes one mouse super chill and the other, the brother, the sister that is genetically identical, very anxious, has to do with energetics in some way.
我们最近发现，线粒体实际上存在差异，而这些动物行为不同的部分原因，也许一半是差异，一半是个体间差异，是什么让一只老鼠超级冷漠，而另一只，基因相同的兄弟姐妹，非常焦虑，在某种程度上与能量有关。
So I use this slide to convey this mitocentric perspective.
所以我用这张幻灯片来传达这种以线粒体为中心的观点。
If you want to have a copy and show people, I'm happy to share this.
如果您想拥有一份副本并向人们展示，我很乐意分享。
And one way to understand this is energy comes into the organism as food.
理解这一点的一种方法是能量作为食物进入有机体。
We eat, and we breathe to fuel our mitochondria.
我们吃饭、呼吸都是为了给线粒体提供能量。
Right?
正确的？
So the reason you breathe is to bring oxygen into the body.
所以你呼吸的原因是将氧气带入体内。
Most people know this, and then once oxygen is in your lungs, it goes into your blood, and then it goes to the heart, and then the heart kind of boom, distributes this across the whole organism.
大多数人都知道这一点，一旦氧气进入你的肺部，它就会进入你的血液，然后进入心脏，然后心脏的繁荣，将其分布到整个有机体。
And then when oxygen gets to your big toe, or to your muscle, or to your neuron, and to your hippocampus or some brain region, what happens is the oxygen enters a cell, and then once it's inside the cell, it looks for mitochondria.
然后，当氧气到达你的大脚趾、肌肉、神经元、海马体或某些大脑区域时，氧气就会进入细胞，然后一旦进入细胞内部，它就会寻找线粒体。
It looks, I mean, it's attracted by a concentration gradient.
我的意思是，它看起来是被浓度梯度吸引的。
So the mitochondria is where oxygen is consumed.
所以线粒体是消耗氧气的地方。
And then when mitochondria consume oxygen, they basically create a downhill slope for oxygen to be attracted to that.
然后，当线粒体消耗氧气时，它们基本上会创造一个下坡，让氧气被吸引到那里。
So you breathe to bring oxygen to your mitochondria, and you eat to bring electrons into your mitochondria.
因此，您呼吸将氧气带入线粒体，而进食则将电子带入线粒体。
And what happens there is this beautiful sequence of reactions where you have electrons that were initially stuck on food by the plant, taking solar energy to stick electrons onto carbon, and then you make hydrocarbons, and then that's glucose or starch, and then oils, lipids, everything that's good fuel for our mitochondria.
发生了一系列美妙的反应，电子最初被植物粘在食物上，利用太阳能将电子粘在碳上，然后产生碳氢化合物，然后是葡萄糖或淀粉，然后是油、脂类，所有这些都是我们线粒体的良好燃料。
Those things, the food and the oxygen, converge inside the mitochondria.
这些东西，食物和氧气，聚集在线粒体内。
And then finally, the electrons that were ripped off as CO2 is broken into oxygen are reunited in your mitochondria.
最后，二氧化碳分解成氧气时被剥离的电子在线粒体中重新结合。
And so your mitochondria actually make water, and then release CO2.
所以你的线粒体实际上会产生水，然后释放二氧化碳。
So they close the life cycle that we have with photosynthesis.
因此，它们通过光合作用关闭了我们的生命周期。
Photosynthesis makes oxygen and food, and then our mitochondria brings oxygen together, and then they release water and CO2, exactly what plants need.
光合作用产生氧气和食物，然后我们的线粒体将氧气聚集在一起，然后释放出水和二氧化碳，这正是植物所需要的。
So it's this beautiful cycle.
这就是这个美丽的循环。
So when mitochondria do this, it is basically feeding unpatterned energy into the system, and it starts with the mitochondria the same way that if you feed electricity into a Morse code, right, like dee, dee, dee, dee, dee, dee, dee.
因此，当线粒体这样做时，它基本上是将无模式的能量输入到系统中，它从线粒体开始，就像你将电流输入莫尔斯电码一样，对吧，就像迪，迪，迪，迪，迪，迪，迪。
You feed electricity, it's unpatterned energy, like food and biochemistry is to your body, and then by pressing and releasing a little lever with a specific pattern, what you're doing is you're patterning electricity, which means nothing.
你提供电力，它是无模式的能量，就像食物和生物化学对你的身体一样，然后通过按下和释放具有特定模式的小杠杆，你所做的就是对电力进行模式化，这没有任何意义。
It's just raw current, and then you pattern it in something that means something.
它只是原始电流，然后你将其图案化为有意义的东西。
Short beeps, long beeps, and then you can spell stuff, you can communicate information, right?
短嘟嘟，长嘟嘟，然后你就可以拼写东西，你可以传达信息，对吧？
So you're creating information by patterning in time, right, by patterning electricity.
所以你是通过时间模式来创建信息，对吧，通过电模式来创建信息。
So mitochondria, the way I see them is they're an energy patterning system And we've called them the mitochondrial information processing system for that reason.
所以线粒体，我对它们的看法是它们是一个能量模式系统，因此我们将它们称为线粒体信息处理系统。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Should we think of them like a little Morse code lever?
我们是否应该将它们视为一个小摩尔斯电码杠杆？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
I think it's a decent analogy for part of their behavior, part of what they do fundamentally.
我认为这是对他们的部分行为、他们的基本行为的一部分的一个很好的类比。
They take raw energy, and then they pattern that energy into molecules.
他们获取原始能量，然后将能量转化为分子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This perhaps is why I've heard you say that we should not just think about mitochondria as the powerhouse of the cell generating more ATP.
这也许就是为什么我听到你说我们不应该仅仅将线粒体视为细胞产生更多 ATP 的动力源。
That is true, but it's also true that they're controlling the flow of energy in a very detailed way.
这是事实，但他们确实以非常详细的方式控制能量的流动。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Correct.
正确。
And they're controlling the flow of energy, but they're also controlling the transformation of energy.
它们控制着能量的流动，同时也控制着能量的转换。
Right?
正确的？
The electricity can be converted, transformed into all sorts of different messages, signals, right, with your Morse code, depending on the needs, depending on the state, depending on the person pressing, releasing the lever.
电力可以转换成各种不同的消息、信号，对吧，用莫尔斯电码，根据需要，根据状态，根据按下、释放杠杆的人。
And sometimes the organism needs a lot of ATP.
有时有机体需要大量 ATP。
If you're a mitochondrion and you live in the heart and your job is to make ATP, a lot of ATP, and then there's side jobs.
如果你是一个线粒体，你住在心脏里，你的工作就是制造 ATP，大量的 ATP，然后还有副业。
If you're a mitochondrion in the liver, your job is very different, and you're a very different kind of mitochondrion.
如果你是肝脏中的线粒体，你的工作就非常不同，而且你是一种非常不同的线粒体。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, let me ask you this.
好吧，让我问你这个。
I think you just answered the question, but are there different types of mitochondria?
我想你刚刚回答了这个问题，但是线粒体有不同类型吗？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How does a mitochondria in the liver versus in the brain versus in the heart know to take the energy that it's transforming-
肝脏、大脑和心脏中的线粒体如何知道吸收它正在转化的能量？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and pattern its output so that heart cells can do what heart cells need to do, or liver or brain?
并对其输出进行模式化，以便心脏细胞能够做心脏细胞、肝脏或大脑需要做的事情？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This seems like a very important issue.
这似乎是一个非常重要的问题。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is it possible even that the mitochondria in these different tissues are fundamentally different organelles?
这些不同组织中的线粒体是否有可能是根本不同的细胞器？
And we should probably define what an organelle is for people.
我们也许应该定义人类的细胞器是什么。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yes.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Organelle is the technical term for an organ of the cell.
细胞器是细胞器官的技术术语。
And the cell typically is represented as this skin, and then inside the skin is the cytoplasm, the big soup, and then inside the soup, the cytoplasm, there is a bunch of little organs that allow the cell to do all sorts of things and perform its activities and replicate and so on.
细胞通常被表示为这个皮肤，然后皮肤里面是细胞质，大汤，然后在汤里面，细胞质，有一堆小器官，让细胞可以做各种各样的事情，执行它的活动和复制等等。
Mitochondria is one of those organs, and their purpose is to process, transform energy.
线粒体是这些器官之一，它们的目的是处理、转化能量。
And one of the ways in which they transform energy is taking raw energy from biochemistry, the food you eat, empowered by oxygen to flow those electrons and then building a charge and then powering this beautiful rotor.
它们转换能量的方式之一是从生物化学中获取原始能量，即你吃的食物，通过氧气使这些电子流动，然后建立电荷，然后为这个美丽的转子提供动力。
Some people might have seen this.
有些人可能已经看到了这一点。
It's kind of a rotary engine kind of thing, a turbine.
这是一种旋转发动机之类的东西，涡轮机。
And then when mitochondria build their membrane potential to become charged, they use that charge to power the rotation of this turbine.
然后，当线粒体建立膜电位并带电时，它们利用该电荷为该涡轮机的旋转提供动力。
And then as the turbine turns, it converts ADP into ATP.
然后当涡轮转动时，它将 ADP 转化为 ATP。
So now you have conversion of biochemistry into electricity and electrochemical charge in the mitochondria back into biochemistry, ATP.
现在，您已将生物化学转化为电能，并将线粒体中的电化学电荷转化为生物化学，即 ATP。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's in the backdrop of all this, of course, is that all this self-organizes during development.
当然，这一切的背景是所有这些都是在开发过程中自组织的。
Yes, the genes are the blueprint, but this is all built up from scratch.
是的，基因就是蓝图，但这一切都是从头开始构建的。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Correct.
正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And probably a tangent for another time, but so how does a heart cell know to produce a lot of ATP versus a liver cell?
可能又是一个切线，但是心脏细胞如何知道与肝细胞相比会产生大量 ATP？
And of course, it's coordinated in time with sleep and circadian stuff.
当然，它与睡眠和昼夜节律及时协调。
But how does it know, or does it even know, I'm a mitochondria inside a heart cell-
但它怎么知道，或者甚至知道，我是心脏细胞内的线粒体——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and the amount of energy I need to transform is X?
我需要转化的能量是X？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
How does a mitochondrion, singular is mitochondrion and multiple is mitochondria, how does a mitochondrion in a heart cell know that it needs to be a cardiac mitochondrion?
一个线粒体，单数是线粒体，多数是线粒体，心脏细胞中的线粒体如何知道它需要是心脏线粒体？
Right?
正确的？
Is that your question?
这是你的问题吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Is it genetically different than a mitochondrion from the liver?
它在遗传上与肝脏线粒体不同吗？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
No, they're genetically exactly the same.
不，他们的基因完全相同。
And that's another kind of punch to the gene-based model of biology.
这是对基于基因的生物学模型的另一种冲击。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
How could it be that every cell in your body is genetically identical, and the mitochondria have their own genetic material?
为什么你体内的每个细胞的基因都是相同的，而线粒体却有自己的遗传物质？
We all have our mom's mitochondria, which is really beautiful.
我们都有妈妈的线粒体，这真的很漂亮。
It kind of-
有点像——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
100% of our mitochondrial genome is from mom.
我们的线粒体基因组 100% 来自妈妈。
Is that true?
这是真的吗？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Correct.
正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And there were a few papers a few years ago that said, "Ooh, no, look here, there's this one case, this one kid, or these two kids that have paternal father mitochondria." Turns out it was a mistake in the sequencing or-
几年前有几篇论文说，“哦，不，看这里，有一个案例，这个孩子，或者这两个孩子有父亲线粒体。”事实证明这是排序错误或者-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So mothers are truly always right.
所以妈妈们真的永远是对的。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yes.
是的。
Power to mothers.
给母亲的力量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People will be thinking, and I'm also thinking, does that mean, and of course there are lifestyle issues, but does that mean that if we were to look at the quote unquote energy levels of mom versus energy levels of dad, that what better predicts the energy levels of a kid is the mother's sort of baseline levels of energy at a given age?
人们会想，我也在想，这是否意味着，当然存在生活方式问题，但这是否意味着，如果我们看看妈妈的能量水平与爸爸的能量水平，更好地预测孩子的能量水平是母亲在给定年龄的能量基线水平？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
I don't know of studies that have asked that question about subjective energy or the energy to do stuff and which I think we'll talk more about.
我不知道有哪些研究提出了关于主观能量或做事的能量的问题，我想我们会更多地讨论这个问题。
But people have looked at other, more tractable, which what we do in biomedicine, we take things that we can measure objectively or run on a gel or sequence or objectify with a biomarker in the clinic.
但人们已经看到了其他更容易处理的事情，我们在生物医学领域所做的事情，我们采取可以客观测量的东西，或者在凝胶或序列上运行，或者在临床上用生物标记物进行客观化。
People have looked at longevity, right?
人们都关注长寿，对吗？
Are you more likely to live long if your mom lived long or if your dad lived long?
如果你的妈妈长寿，或者你的爸爸长寿，你更有可能活得长寿吗？
Turns out the heritability of longevity is more maternal than paternal.
事实证明，长寿的遗传力更多来自母系而不是父系。
Are you more likely to have a mental health disorder or to have Parkinson's or Alzheimer's if your mom or your dad had it?
如果您的母亲或父亲患有精神疾病或帕金森氏症或阿尔茨海默氏症，您是否更有可能患有精神健康障碍？
Some evidence say it's more maternally inherited than paternally inherited.
一些证据表明，它更多地是母系遗传，而不是父系遗传。
So it could be that part of your ability to live a long, healthy life, or your risk or your resilience to those disorders really are conveyed or carried by mitochondria, by your ability to transform energy.
因此，你长寿、健康生活的能力的一部分，或者你对这些疾病的风险或恢复力，可能确实是由线粒体、你转化能量的能力传递或携带的。
And the reason why through evolution you need parental inheritance.
以及为什么通过进化你需要父母的遗传。
You get your mitochondria from a single parent.
您从单亲那里获得线粒体。
Has developed, most people think is because there needs to be a really close metabolic energetic match between the mom and the baby.
大多数人认为发育是因为妈妈和宝宝之间需要有非常密切的代谢能量匹配。
Right?
正确的？
The baby comes out and then if the mom has a certain type of metabolism, and we're all different, I hope we talk about how different we are energetically, metabolically.
宝宝出生后，如果妈妈有某种类型的新陈代谢，而我们都是不同的，我希望我们能谈谈我们在能量和新陈代谢方面有多么不同。
So we're all very different.
所以我们都很不同。
If the baby that was born was so metabolically different than the mom, there's a chance that there'd be a mismatch, right?
如果出生的婴儿在新陈代谢上与母亲有如此大的差异，那么就有可能会出现不匹配，对吗？
And then the mom wouldn't be able to support through breastfeeding.
然后妈妈就无法通过母乳喂养来支持。
Historically, that's how babies survived.
从历史上看，婴儿就是这样生存的。
And that would be a catastrophe.
那将是一场灾难。
So, it's probably a good system to have baby metabolism match pretty closely because they have the same mitochondria as the mom to mom metabolism.
因此，这可能是一个让婴儿新陈代谢非常匹配的好系统，因为他们具有与妈妈之间的新陈代谢相同的线粒体。
So that's, I think, a loose hypothesis, but yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
所以，我认为，这是一个松散的假设，但是，是的，这很有意义。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It does make a lot of sense.
这确实很有意义。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Every mitochondria you have in your body, like the brain mitochondria, neuron mitochondria, astrocyte mitochondria, whatever your favorite cell type is, your heart mitochondria, liver mitochondria, muscle mitochondria, they're very different.
你体内的每一个线粒体，比如大脑线粒体、神经元线粒体、星形胶质细胞线粒体，无论你最喜欢的细胞类型是什么，你的心脏线粒体、肝脏线粒体、肌肉线粒体，它们都是非常不同的。
And now we have a new method.
现在我们有了一个新方法。
There's a wonderful scientist in our group, Anna Manzel, who's developed a method to profile different types of mitochondria.
我们小组中有一位出色的科学家，安娜·曼泽尔（Anna Manzel），她开发了一种分析不同类型线粒体的方法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
We call this mitotyping.
我们称之为有丝分裂。
The same way that now in neuroscience or in immunology, it makes no sense to talk about a brain cell or an immune cell.
就像现在在神经科学或免疫学中一样，谈论脑细胞或免疫细胞是没有意义的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
If you're a self-respecting immunologist, you know your cell types and there's at least 30 different types.
如果您是一位有自尊心的免疫学家，您就会了解自己的细胞类型，并且至少有 30 种不同的类型。
So I think we're at this point in mitochondrial science where we need to adopt a similar level of specificity.
因此，我认为线粒体科学目前处于这一阶段，我们需要采用类似水平的特异性。
There are different types of mitochondria.
线粒体有不同类型。
We call those mitotypes.
我们称这些为有丝分裂型。
And they emerge, all of them, from the same mitotype in the egg.
它们全部都来自卵子中相同的有丝分裂型。
Right?
正确的？
The egg that the mother carries and releases from the ovary.
母亲携带并从卵巢释放的卵子。
There's about half a million mitochondria in that egg.
那个卵子里大约有五十万个线粒体。
And then those mitochondria, there's a single type of mitochondria in there, and then when it's fertilized, development happens in this beautiful process.
然后是那些线粒体，里面有一种线粒体，然后当它受精时，发育就发生在这个美丽的过程中。
And through that process, as the heart starts to form, the brain starts to form, the muscles start to form, the mitochondria differentiate.
通过这个过程，随着心脏开始形成，大脑开始形成，肌肉开始形成，线粒体开始分化。
And then you end up with different types of mitochondria that are adapted and matched to the different demands of cell types, of organs.
然后你最终会得到不同类型的线粒体，它们适应并匹配细胞类型和器官的不同需求。
And one way we think about this is, I think it makes a lot of sense to think about mitochondria as social organisms.
我们思考这个问题的一种方式是，我认为将线粒体视为社会有机体是很有意义的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hm.
嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And there are multiple features of mitochondrial biology that obey what behavioral social scientists classify as social.
线粒体生物学有多个特征遵循行为社会科学家所定义的社会特征。
If you study ants, for example, there's a few rules that we know ants are social creatures because they form groups, right?
例如，如果你研究蚂蚁，有一些规则我们知道蚂蚁是社会生物，因为它们形成群体，对吗？
And there are different types.
并且有不同的类型。
There's division of labor.
有分工。
You have worker ants that work really hard, and you have warrior ants that are really chubby, and they're here to defend the hive.
有非常努力工作的工蚁，也有非常胖乎乎的武士蚁，它们是来保卫蜂巢的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They like to fight.
他们喜欢打架。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
So those two types of ants, you look at them side by side, there's this little flimsy, super active worker ant, and then this chubby warrior ant.
所以这两种类型的蚂蚁，你并排观察它们，有这种脆弱的、超级活跃的工蚁，还有这种胖乎乎的战士蚁。
Genetically, they're identical.
从基因上来说，它们是相同的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hm.
嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
They have the same genome.
他们有相同的基因组。
They came, as a little larvae from the queen.
它们是作为蜂王的小幼虫而来的。
But their morphology is super different.
但它们的形态却截然不同。
Their behavior is very different.
他们的行为非常不同。
But through development, there are cues that are applied to the different larvae, and then they end up becoming a worker or a warrior.
但通过发育，不同的幼虫会得到一些线索，然后它们最终会成为工人或战士。
So the same kind of thing happens in mitochondria.
所以同样的事情也发生在线粒体中。
So there are different types of mitochondria, like the two types of ants.
所以有不同类型的线粒体，就像两种蚂蚁一样。
There's division of labor.
有分工。
There's some mitochondria, for example, in the muscle that are at the surface of the muscle, just underneath the sarcolemma, the skin of the muscle cells.
例如，肌肉中有一些线粒体，位于肌肉表面，就在肌膜（肌肉细胞的皮肤）下方。
And then there are mitochondria that are inside, where the actin myosin, the contractile proteins happen.
然后内部有线粒体，肌动蛋白、收缩蛋白就在那里发生。
Subsarcolemmal mitochondria and intermyofibrillar mitochondria.
肌膜下线粒体和肌原纤维间线粒体。
Two populations.
两个人口。
Their proteome is different.
他们的蛋白质组是不同的。
Their molecular composition of those different types of mitochondria are different.
不同类型的线粒体其分子组成是不同的。
Their functions, ATP synthesis, reactive oxygen species production, their ability to handle calcium and release calcium is different.
它们的功能、ATP合成、活性氧产生、处理钙和释放钙的能力是不同的。
Their morphology is very different.
它们的形态非常不同。
So even within one cell, you get this division of labor and differentiation of mitochondria.
因此，即使在一个细胞内，你也会得到线粒体的这种分工和分化。
And in every cell, mitochondria have a life cycle.
在每个细胞中，线粒体都有一个生命周期。
New mitochondria are born, and old mitochondria die out, which is what happens in social creatures.
新的线粒体诞生，旧的线粒体消失，这就是社会生物中发生的情况。
And there's a few other features like this that I think make mitochondria social organisms.
我认为还有一些其他类似的特征使线粒体成为社会有机体。
And once you start to think about mitochondria as social creatures, then you understand maybe a little better why they need to fuse with one another.
一旦你开始将线粒体视为社会生物，你就会更好地理解为什么它们需要彼此融合。
And if you ask Google, what do mitochondria look like?
如果你问谷歌，线粒体是什么样子的？
Or ChatGPT or whatever, it shows you always the same kind of images.
或者 ChatGPT 或其他什么，它总是向您显示相同类型的图像。
It's like a little bean.
它就像一颗小豆子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You got it.
你明白了。
I brought one as a gift.
我带了一个作为礼物。
At one moment, I thought they might be brass knuckles when you first handed them to me.
当你第一次把它们递给我时，我一度以为它们可能是指节铜套。
But it's a mitochondrion with the cristae of the mitochondria.
但它是一个带有线粒体嵴的线粒体。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
There you go.
就这样吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Usually looks like this.
通常看起来像这样。
But you're saying in reality, there'd be many of these connected to or closely fused to one another.
但你说的是，在现实中，其中有很多是相互联系或紧密融合的。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So, and when they fuse, you get these bean or kidney shapes or peanut shape, whatever your preference is, that fuse with one another, and then they form these beautiful filaments.
因此，当它们融合时，你会得到这些豆子或肾形或花生形状，无论你的喜好是什么，它们彼此融合，然后形成这些美丽的细丝。
So if you're lucky enough to work in a lab that has one of these cool microscopes called confocal microscope or light sheet microscopy, and then you can make the mitochondria fluorescent.
因此，如果您足够幸运，在拥有一种称为共焦显微镜或光片显微镜的很酷的显微镜的实验室工作，那么您就可以使线粒体发出荧光。
So you put a dye in the dish, and then it's a little fluorescent molecule that goes inside the mitochondria.
因此，你将一种染料放入培养皿中，然后它就会成为一种小的荧光分子，进入线粒体内部。
It's attracted by the big charge that mitochondria have.
它被线粒体所带的大电荷所吸引。
And then you turn off the lights, look down the eyepiece, and then you see these beautiful filaments of mitochondria moving.
然后你关掉灯，向下看目镜，然后你会看到这些美丽的线粒体细丝在移动。
They move pretty slowly, and interestingly, they're just at the edge of human perception of how quickly we can perceive things to move.
它们移动得相当缓慢，有趣的是，它们正处于人类感知事物移动速度的边缘。
So they move barely fast enough so you can see them.
所以它们移动的速度不够快，所以你可以看到它们。
And then they kiss and then fuse completely.
然后他们接吻，然后完全融合。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Either You can invite everyone to your lab to see this, but that's a lot of people.
要么你可以邀请每个人到你的实验室来看看这个，但人太多了。
You'd be very busy.
你会很忙。
We'll put a link to a video of this.
我们将放置一个视频链接。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
We're building a webpage called Mito Life, which is to help people understand themselves energetically and through the beauty of mitochondria, and there are all sorts of different types of mitochondria that move differently.
我们正在建立一个名为 Mito Life 的网页，旨在帮助人们通过线粒体之美，积极地了解自己，线粒体有各种不同类型，它们的运动方式也不同。
And when the mitochondria are not healthy, and if they can't flow and transform energy properly-
当线粒体不健康时，如果它们不能正常流动和转换能量——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
they start to look really weird.
他们开始看起来很奇怪。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It occurred to me that for the longest time, I'm 50 now, so I can say for the longest time.
我想到最长的一段时间，我现在已经50岁了，所以我可以说最长的一段时间。
For the longest time, we heard that if we want energy, we need to eat, right?
很长一段时间以来，我们都听说如果我们想要能量，我们就需要吃饭，对吗？
Of course, we need to sleep, but we need to eat.
当然，我们需要睡觉，但我们也需要吃饭。
And every kid learns.
每个孩子都会学习。
You're consuming energy so that you'll fuel your body.
你消耗能量是为了给你的身体提供能量。
There are all these discussions.
有所有这些讨论。
You should eat meat.
你应该吃肉。
Don't eat meat.
不要吃肉。
I believe you should eat some meat.
我相信你应该吃点肉。
You should eat some vegetables, some fruit- ...
你应该吃一些蔬菜，一些水果......
et cetera.
等等。
I think you should-
我认为你应该——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Some fats
一些脂肪
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
be an omnivore.
成为杂食动物。
Some fats.
一些脂肪。
Yes.
是的。
That's my belief.
这就是我的信念。
But we all understood that, but then at some point, probably about 10 years ago, it became clear to people that just consuming more energy didn't give you more energy.
但我们都明白这一点，但在某个时候，可能是大约 10 年前，人们清楚地认识到，仅仅消耗更多的能量并不会给你带来更多的能量。
It was an obvious thing.
这是显而易见的事情。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it's now abundantly clear, and based on what you're saying, it should be clear to everyone that the issue is not lack of energy going into the system.
但现在已经非常清楚了，根据你所说的，每个人都应该清楚，问题不在于系统缺乏能量。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-mm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's that the transformation of energy that occurs in mitochondria somehow is not happening correctly in people that are obese-
这是线粒体中发生的能量转化在肥胖者身上以某种方式没有正确发生——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or in people that are eating and feeling lethargic.
或者正在吃东西并感到昏昏欲睡的人。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And of course, there's blood sugar aspects to this, and we could discuss all of that, and we won't, because that's not the topic for today.
当然，这涉及到血糖方面的问题，我们可以讨论所有这些，但我们不会，因为这不是今天的主题。
But I think if nothing else, if people can just understand that they have not just these powerhouses, but these power plants-
但我认为，如果不出意外的话，如果人们能够明白，他们不仅拥有这些发电厂，还有这些发电厂——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
within their bodies that are transforming the energy, and that the mitochondria are essential to how the energy is transformed and distributed-
他们体内正在转化能量，而线粒体对于能量的转化和分配至关重要-
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
on an organ-by-organ basis, I think that would be a helpful concept for people to get into their mind because people are talking about mitochondria all the time.
在逐个器官的基础上，我认为这将是一个有助于人们理解的概念，因为人们一直在谈论线粒体。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People are talking about and hearing about nutrition all the time, and so often we just think about calories, and everyone knows that a calorie is a unit of heat output when you burn a given food.
人们一直在谈论和听到营养，但我们常常只考虑卡路里，每个人都知道卡路里是燃烧给定食物时输出的热量单位。
And we learn this stuff-
我们学习这些东西-
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but it doesn't transform into good health practices.
但它并没有转化为良好的健康习惯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I think nowadays, people are starting to get a sense of how their bodies work, and you're adding a lot of important detail and aspects to that today.
但我认为现在，人们开始了解他们的身体是如何运作的，今天你为此添加了很多重要的细节和方面。
So I just wanted to frame that up.
所以我只是想把它框起来。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you have any reflections on that, great.
如果您对此有任何想法，那就太好了。
If not, it was just a point that came to mind that I think might be useful.
如果没有，这只是我想到的一个可能有用的观点。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yes.
是的。
It's so important.
这非常重要。
And we are energy.
我们是能量。
Fundamentally, we are the flow of energy through this biological infrastructure, right, that we call the body.
从根本上说，我们是通过这个生物基础设施（我们称之为身体）的能量流。
But you are not the cells or the genes or, right, that thing.
但你不是细胞、基因或者那个东西。
You are much more that energy that is flowing, which is why when the energy stops flowing, you are no longer.
你不仅仅是流动的能量，这就是为什么当能量停止流动时，你就不再存在了。
When you die, all the physical stuff remains, but you no longer have an experience.
当你死后，所有物质都保留下来，但你不再有体验。
You no longer exist as a person.
你不再作为一个人存在。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The way I think about this is rather than thinking in nouns, think in verbs.
我思考这个问题的方式不是用名词思考，而是用动词思考。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think as biologists, when we teach biology, you have to teach some nouns-
我认为作为生物学家，当我们教生物学时，你必须教一些名词-
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
some names of things.
一些事物的名称。
But if you can get people to understand the verbs as concepts, it's worth a gazillion nouns.
但如果你能让人们将动词理解为概念，那么它就值得无数的名词了。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so I think people thinking about themselves as a verb state-
所以我认为人们将自己视为一个动词状态-
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of as energy transformation-
作为能量转换-
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
being, it sounds-
存在，听起来——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
so mystical, but it's not mystical.
如此神秘，但其实并不神秘。
It's biochemical-
这是生化的——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
It is
它是
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I think could be useful.
我认为可能有用。
Along those lines, I do want to talk about this recent paper that you published, which essentially, my understanding is that looked at different brain areas and found that different brain areas have different concentrations of mitochondria.
沿着这些思路，我确实想谈谈您最近发表的这篇论文，本质上，我的理解是观察不同的大脑区域，发现不同的大脑区域具有不同浓度的线粒体。
And we know that different body areas and different organs have different concentrations of mitochondria.
我们知道不同的身体部位和不同的器官有不同浓度的线粒体。
But I heard you say someplace, and this is such a beautiful, sticky topic, as they say, that perhaps the things we do in life-
但我听到你在某个地方说过，正如他们所说，这是一个如此美丽、棘手的话题，也许我们在生活中所做的事情——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
maybe lift weights, maybe study biology, maybe play the piano, maybe some combination of things-
也许举重，也许学习生物学，也许弹钢琴，也许是一些事情的组合——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
will enrich the mitochondria, these energy transformation sites, in particular organs and areas of our brain more than others.
会丰富线粒体，这些能量转换部位，特别是我们大脑的器官和区域比其他地方更多。
And so we really become what we pay attention to.
于是我们就真正成为了我们所关注的人。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We become enhanced for what we do, and that makes sense at the level of endurance runners run, and their muscles become, and everything becomes optimized for running.
我们会因所做的事情而得到增强，这对于耐力跑者来说是有意义的，他们的肌肉会变得更适合跑步，一切都会变得优化。
Weightlifters, something else.
举重运动员，还有别的。
But in the brain, this gets very interesting.
但在大脑中，这变得非常有趣。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This means that if we read poetry, for instance, or study biology, that the areas and circuits of the brain that are responsible for that, in some sense, become better at doing that.
这意味着，例如，如果我们阅读诗歌或研究生物学，那么在某种意义上，负责这些的大脑区域和回路就会变得更擅长这样做。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think this is a very important topic because it really gets to the essence of who we are as individuals-
我认为这是一个非常重要的话题，因为它真正触及了我们作为个体的本质——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
based on our choices of what to do and what not to do.
基于我们对做什么和不做什么的选择。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So with that as the backdrop-
所以以此为背景——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
if you could tell us about this paper and tell us about what you think about these findings and what they might mean-
如果您能告诉我们这篇论文并告诉我们您对这些发现的看法以及它们可能意味着什么-
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I would love that.
我会喜欢的。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
We flow as energetic processes, right, to your point.
我们作为充满活力的过程流动，对，就你的观点而言。
We're transformative processes.
我们是变革性的过程。
We transform, we flow, we are the energy that flows, and the more you direct energy to one area, right?
我们转变，我们流动，我们是流动的能量，你将能量引导到一个区域的次数越多，对吗？
If you go to the gym and you do bicep curls, you're resisting the flow of energy while you're contracting, and then you do this a few times, and then when you let go, you get blood flow, right, energy flow through the system.
如果你去健身房做二头肌弯举，你会在收缩时抵抗能量流，然后你这样做几次，然后当你放松时，你就会得到血液流动，对吧，能量流过系统。
And we know exercise training is a beautiful example.
我们知道运动训练就是一个很好的例子。
If you train to run a marathon, for example, you can double the number of mitochondria in your muscles.
例如，如果你训练跑马拉松，你可以使肌肉中的线粒体数量增加一倍。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Double, right?
双倍，对吗？
And my understanding of this is as energy flows through the existing mitochondria, you're basically bringing your energy into that system, and then the biochemical energy gets transformed into molecules, into metabolites, and then eventually into proteins, and then structure gets created as energy flows And so the flow of energy, first, you resist it.
我对此的理解是，当能量流过现有的线粒体时，你基本上将能量带入该系统，然后生化能量转化为分子、代谢物，最后转化为蛋白质，然后随着能量流动而创建结构，所以能量的流动，首先，你抵制它。
We call this energy resistance.
我们称之为能量阻力。
And then when you let go of the resistance, that's when we build, that's when we grow.
然后当你放下阻力时，那就是我们建设的时候，那就是我们成长的时候。
Arnold Schwarzenegger said, "Muscles are torn in the gym, they're fed in the kitchen, and are grown in bed," I think .
阿诺·施瓦辛格说过，“肌肉是在健身房里被撕裂的，他们是在厨房里吃饱的，是在床上长大的，”我想。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In an Austrian accent.
带着奥地利口音。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
So, yeah, if you direct energy towards a muscle, then one way to direct energy is to resist the energy flow and then to let go.
所以，是的，如果你将能量引导到肌肉，那么引导能量的一种方法就是抵抗能量流，然后放开。
And that's what exercise fundamentally is.
这就是运动的本质。
You resist the energy flow, and then you let go.
你抵抗能量流，然后放手。
When you resist energy too much, it feels uncomfortable, which is the burning pain.
当你抗拒能量太多的时候，就会感觉不舒服，就是灼痛。
And then when you let go is when growth and building can happen.
然后当你放手时，成长和建设就会发生。
And we know the same thing happens everywhere.
我们知道同样的事情到处都在发生。
This is not a mysterious thing of the muscle and of exercise physiology.
这对于肌肉和运动生理学来说并不是什么神秘的事情。
This is a fundamental biological principle.
这是一个基本的生物学原理。
If you flow energy in one area, then it will grow.
如果你在一个区域流动能量，那么它就会增长。
It will get better.
情况会变得更好。
It will get more efficient.
它会变得更有效率。
And if you block energy flow to one area, like you block blood flow, for example, or you get in an accident and the nerve gets damaged, then the muscle doesn't contract anymore.
如果你阻止能量流向某个区域，例如阻止血液流动，或者你发生事故并且神经受损，那么肌肉就不再收缩。
You're basically blocking the flow of energy there, and what happens?
你基本上阻碍了那里的能量流动，会发生什么？
It atrophies.
它萎缩了。
Atrophy is a normal movement of life when energy flow decreases.
当能量流减少时，萎缩是生命的正常运动。
And if there's no energy flow, really, there's no purpose for that structure.
如果没有能量流，实际上，该结构就没有任何意义。
If you feed, if you stimulate that structure, be it a muscle or brain circuit, a brain network or brain area, then naturally, that area should grow and build.
如果你进食，如果你刺激那个结构，无论是肌肉还是大脑回路、大脑网络或大脑区域，那么自然地，那个区域就会生长和构建。
And what we know happens in the brain and also happens between different organs of the body is there's a competition for finite energy resources.
我们知道，大脑中以及身体不同器官之间都会发生对有限能源的竞争。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
What you said earlier, you can't just eat more to get more energy.
正如你之前所说，你不能仅仅吃更多的东西来获取更多的能量。
Now we know very well if you overeat, you eat more than your body is actually flowing, consuming in terms of energy, transforming, you get sick.
现在我们非常清楚，如果你吃得过多，你吃的东西超过了你身体实际流动、消耗的能量、转化的量，你就会生病。
If you can, you put on fat, which is a good adaptive coping mechanism to eating too much.
如果可以的话，你可以增加脂肪，这是应对暴饮暴食的一种很好的适应性机制。
But then eventually the systems get overwhelmed, and then that hurts the mitochondria, and it hurts cells.
但最终系统会不堪重负，从而损害线粒体，进而损害细胞。
They become insulin resistant.
他们变得胰岛素抵抗。
And so there's all sorts of consequences to eating too much.
因此，吃得太多会带来各种各样的后果。
You cannot eat more to get more energy.
你不可能吃得更多来获得更多的能量。
And that is, I think, still scientifically a very big mystery.
我认为，这在科学上仍然是一个很大的谜团。
That why can't we just ramp up our energy consumption, energy transformation, and then sleep less and work out three hours every day?
那为什么我们不能增加能量消耗、能量转化，然后减少睡眠，每天锻炼三个小时呢？
Even professional athletes who devote all of their energy to building muscle mass, building skills, or building aptitudes, there's a limit to how much you can eat.
即使是投入所有精力来增强肌肉质量、增强技能或培养才能的职业运动员，你的吃量也是有限的。
We don't really know why that is, why there's a limit to that.
我们真的不知道为什么会这样，为什么会有限制。
And so the body operates an economy of energy.
因此，身体在运作能量经济。
You have X amount of energy.
你有X量的能量。
You can push that up over short periods of time.
您可以在短时间内将其提高。
Like if you start to work out, or you're a cyclist, you do the Tour de France.
就像如果你开始锻炼，或者你是一名自行车手，你就参加环法自行车赛。
For three weeks, you're going for 5,000, 7,000 calories a day.
三周内，您每天摄入 5,000 至 7,000 卡路里的热量。
You do this for three weeks.
你这样做三个星期。
There's a reason why the Tour de France is not four weeks and five weeks .
环法自行车赛不是四个星期和五个星期是有原因的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
There's a cap.
有一个帽子。
And there's beautiful data showing that the longer the event, the athletic event, the lower the max output per day.
有漂亮的数据表明，赛事时间越长，体育赛事的每日最大产出就越低。
And if you looked at that curve, the first point, max power output you can develop over 10 seconds is what you see in the 100-meter sprint.
如果你看一下那条曲线，你会发现第一个点，即你在 10 秒内可以产生的最大功率输出，就是你在 100 米冲刺中看到的。
And then you get the 400 meters, and then it goes down.
然后你跑到 400 米，然后下降。
And the Tour de France is, marathon is here, Tour de France, three weeks is here, then you get crazy run across America, multiple weeks.
环法自行车赛，马拉松在这里，环法自行车赛，三周在这里，然后你会疯狂地跑遍美国，持续数周。
And then at the very end, nine months, pregnancy .
然后在最后，九个月，怀孕了。
And it costs energy to grow a human being.
人类的成长需要消耗能量。
And some of the data suggest that when you grow a human being for nine months, the woman is basically operating at the max of her capacity if you integrate over a nine-month period.
一些数据表明，当你培养一个人九个月时，如果你在九个月的时间内整合，那么女人基本上已经发挥了最大能力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do pregnant women accumulate more mitochondria, or the energy demands are entirely for the mitochondria of the developing fetus?
孕妇是否会积累更多线粒体，还是能量需求完全用于发育中胎儿的线粒体？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
That is a good question.
这是一个好问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We know certain brain areas grow during pregnancy.
我们知道某些大脑区域在怀孕期间会生长。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
That the brain remodels.
大脑重塑。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
There are different demands.
有不同的要求。
As a mother, if you're pregnant now
作为一个母亲，如果你现在怀孕了
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
you need to start to care about different things.
你需要开始关心不同的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Maybe it's adaptive to start to think about the world a slightly different way-
也许开始以稍微不同的方式思考世界是适应性的——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
and it's not just about yourself, and-
这不只是关于你自己，而且——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
so there are certainly even long-lasting brain changes that happen in the woman's brain.
因此，女性的大脑肯定会发生持久的大脑变化。
So this economy of energy between organs is likely what explains if you're a young woman and you exercise a lot, you lose your menses.
因此，器官之间的这种能量经济很可能解释了如果你是一名年轻女性，并且你运动量很大，你就会失去月经。
Amenorrhea.
闭经。
And this is not because the reproductive system is broken or because the ovaries are sick or something like that.
这并不是因为生殖系统损坏或卵巢生病或类似的原因。
The best explanation we have is there's a shortage of energy.
我们得到的最好的解释是能源短缺。
You're pushing and driving all of your energy budget towards your working muscles, towards making more mitochondria in your muscles, and there's no more energy to fuel reproduction.
你将所有的能量预算推向你的工作肌肉，在你的肌肉中制造更多的线粒体，但没有更多的能量来促进繁殖。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I have a practical question related to this.
我有一个与此相关的实际问题。
I have always wondered why is it that when we're coming down with a cold or a flu or some sort of other infection, that there are a bunch of processes that make us more lethargic and tired, and these are very adaptive.
我一直想知道为什么当我们患上感冒、流感或其他某种感染时，会有一系列的过程让我们变得更加昏昏欲睡和疲倦，而这些过程都是非常适应性的。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we know we need to rest, but it's not just about getting sleep.
我们知道我们需要休息，但这不仅仅是睡觉。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We actually need to slow our circulation down.
我们实际上需要减慢血液循环。
We need to rest.
我们需要休息。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there are all these theories about do you feed or starve a cold or flu, and-
所有这些理论都是关于你是否会因感冒或流感而进食或挨饿，以及-
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I covered that in a different episode.
我在另一集中介绍了这一点。
I will put a link.
我会放一个链接。
It's not straightforward, but follow your appetite, stay hydrated, keep your electrolytes up, and so forth-
这并不简单，但要遵循你的胃口，保持水分，保持电解质充足，等等-
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is the short answer.
是简短的答案。
But is it that the immune system needs more energy, and the body, as a protective mechanism, as an adaptive mechanism, is saying, "Slow down everything else and devote yourself to ...
但这是不是免疫系统需要更多的能量，而身体作为一种保护机制，作为一种适应机制，正在说：“放慢其他一切，全身心投入......
healing, to fighting this infection, as opposed to spending energy even walking up the stairs as much as you typically do during a day.
治愈，对抗这种感染，而不是像平时那样花费精力甚至爬楼梯。
Is that the idea?
是这个想法吗？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yep.
是的。
I think that's the best model we have.
我认为这是我们拥有的最好的模型。
And I had a personal experience of this over New Year's a couple of years ago, where I could feel I was coming down with something before New Year's dinner.
几年前的新年期间，我有过这样的亲身经历，在新年晚餐之前，我能感觉到自己有些沮丧。
And so it ended up being a pretty short night.
所以这最终是一个非常短暂的夜晚。
I went to bed early, and that night was terrible.
我很早就睡觉了，那天晚上很糟糕。
The next day I was so off, and I was starting to work on the book Energy, and then I thought, "Ooh, this is such a cool opportunity." Now I'm experiencing, I'm feeling drained.
第二天我很空闲，我开始写《能源》一书，然后我想，“哦，这真是一个很酷的机会。”现在我正在经历，我感到筋疲力尽。
Right?
对吗？
I'm in bed.
我在床上。
Everything hurts.
一切都很痛。
And then I thought, "I should be writing about this." Right?
然后我想，“我应该写一下这个。”对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And then just the thought of grabbing my computer, then I thought, it doesn't cost a lot of energy, just wiggle my fingers on the keyboard.
然后一想到要抓起我的电脑，我就想，这并不需要花费很多精力，只需在键盘上晃动手指即可。
But there was no drive.
但没有驱动器。
I stopped caring about stuff that I usually care about.
我不再关心我平时关心的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Right?
对吗？
Everyone has experienced this when you're really sick.
当你真的生病时，每个人都经历过这种情况。
Motivation, right?
动机，对吧？
Zero.
零。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
My capacity to be the best human being that I am and to be kind-
我有能力成为最好的人并且善良-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
A little diminished.
有点减少了。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Right?
对吗？
I was just trying to fucking survive.
我他妈只是想活下去。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And what we know in terms of biology and mitochondria and energy, that happens when you're fighting something like this, the immune system costs a lot of energy.
据我们所知，在生物学、线粒体和能量方面，当你与这样的事情作斗争时，免疫系统会消耗大量能量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
So I think the best model interpretation we have of sickness behavior is what you were describing, the technical term, is you feel sick, right?
所以我认为我们对疾病行为的最佳模型解释就是你所描述的，技术术语是你感到不舒服，对吗？
And you don't want to move.
而你却不想动。
You feel cold, right?
你感觉冷，对吗？
Which then forces you to put covers or to dress to avoid cold environments.
这迫使你盖上被子或穿衣服以避免寒冷的环境。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
It hurts to move your body-
动动身体就痛——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
to contract muscles, and there's allodynia, right?
收缩肌肉，就会出现异常性疼痛，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
You become more sensitive to pain.
你对疼痛变得更加敏感。
All of these things likely exist in service of conserving your precious energy budget.
所有这些都可能是为了节省您宝贵的能源预算而存在。
And even not eating, right?
甚至不吃饭，对吗？
Follow your appetite, yes.
跟随你的胃口，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And eating costs energy.
而且吃饭会消耗能量。
Nothing in biology is free.
生物学中没有什么是免费的。
Everything costs something.
一切都需要付出一些代价。
And if you eat food, now you need to masticate, you need to have peristalsis, you need to have gastric acidification, movement, secreting digestive enzymes, and release some bile.
而如果你吃食物，现在你需要咀嚼，需要有蠕动，需要有胃酸化，运动，分泌消化酶，释放一些胆汁。
The orchestration of digestion is pretty expensive.
消化的编排是相当昂贵的。
It's like 10, 15% of your daily energy budget.
这相当于您每日能量预算的 10%、15%。
So that's a 10, 15% of your daily energy budget, if you're running limit, is a lot.
因此，如果您处于跑步极限，那么这相当于您每日能量预算的 10%、15%，这已经是很多了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
By now, I'm sure that many of you have heard me say that I've been taking AG1 for more than a decade, and indeed, that's true.
到现在为止，我相信你们很多人都听我说过我服用 AG1 已有十多年了，确实如此。
The reason I started taking AG1 way back in 2012, and the reason why I still continue to take it every single day, is because AG1 is, to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market.
我早在 2012 年就开始服用 AG1，并且至今仍然每天服用，因为据我所知，AG1 是市场上质量最高、最全面的基础营养补充剂。
What that means is that it contains not just vitamins and minerals, but also probiotics, prebiotics, and adaptogens to cover any gaps that you might have in your diet, while also providing support for a demanding life.
这意味着它不仅含有维生素和矿物质，还含有益生菌、益生元和适应原，可以弥补您饮食中可能存在的任何不足，同时也为高要求的生活提供支持。
Given the probiotics and prebiotics in AG1, it also helps support a healthy gut microbiome.
鉴于 AG1 中的益生菌和益生元，它还有助于支持健康的肠道微生物组。
The gut microbiome consists of trillions of little microorganisms that line your digestive tract and impact things such as your immune status, your metabolic health, your hormone health, and much more.
肠道微生物组由数万亿个小微生物组成，它们排列在您的消化道中，并影响您的免疫状态、代谢健康、激素健康等。
Taking AG1 consistently helps my digestion, keeps my immune system strong, and it ensures that my mood and mental focus are always at their best.
持续服用 AG1 有助于我的消化，保持我的免疫系统强大，并确保我的情绪和精神焦点始终处于最佳状态。
AG1 is now available in three new flavors, berry, citrus, and tropical.
AG1 现已推出三种新口味：浆果味、柑橘味和热带味。
And while I've always loved the AG1 original flavor, especially with a bit of lemon juice added, I'm really enjoying the new berry flavor in particular.
虽然我一直很喜欢 AG1 原味，尤其是添加了一点柠檬汁，但我真的特别喜欢新的浆果味。
It tastes great, but then again, I do love all the flavors.
味道很棒，但话又说回来，我确实喜欢所有的口味。
If you'd like to try AG1 and try these new flavors, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer.
如果您想尝试 AG1 并尝试这些新口味，您可以访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 申请特别优惠。
Just go to drinkag1.com/huberman to get started.
只需访问 Drinkag1.com/huberman 即可开始。
You mentioned that if women exercise beyond a certain threshold, they stop menstruating, and that it's because there's not enough energy, essentially, to menstruate.
您提到，如果女性运动量超过一定阈值，她们就会停止月经，这是因为没有足够的能量来月经。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
One idea would be, well, if you just eat enough, then you have enough energy.
一种想法是，如果你吃得足够多，那么你就有足够的能量。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But we have to think in verb states, not absolutes.
但我们必须用动词状态来思考，而不是绝对的。
And so what I'm realizing is that while one needs sufficient energy input-
所以我意识到，虽然一个人需要足够的能量输入-
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in the form of food, and this could also be true for the example of being sick.
以食物的形式存在，对于生病的例子也是如此。
It's necessary but not sufficient because the mitochondria are doing two things.
这是必要的，但还不够，因为线粒体正在做两件事。
They're transforming that food energy into bodily energy to menstruate or to move or exercise or think or care about a book, et cetera.
他们将食物能量转化为身体能量，用于月经、移动、锻炼、思考或关心一本书等等。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But part of their job is not just to transform the energy, it's to distribute the energy.
但他们的部分工作不仅仅是转换能量，还包括分配能量。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so you really need two conditions.
所以你确实需要两个条件。
And I'm not a computer scientist, but I know enough about programming and engineering that this concept of an and gate.
我不是计算机科学家，但我对编程和工程有足够的了解，知道“与”门的概念。
You need sufficient energy coming into the system, and you need to be able to distribute that energy properly in order for something to occur.
你需要有足够的能量进入系统，并且你需要能够正确地分配这些能量才能发生某些事情。
It's an and gate.
这是一个与门。
You need both things-
你需要这两样东西——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
basically.
基本上。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I now and forever going forward will think about mitochondria as not just energy production, but energy distribution organelles-
所以我现在和将来都会认为线粒体不仅是能量生产，而且是能量分配细胞器-
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
thanks to the way you described it.
感谢你描述的方式。
And now it makes perfect sense as to why when I'm sick, if I'm not hungry, I'm not going to force myself to eat, provided I have enough body fat stores.
现在，这完全有道理了，为什么当我生病时，如果我不饿，只要我有足够的身体脂肪储存，我就不会强迫自己吃东西。
I need to eat eventually, but whatever weakness or fatigue I feel is probably in that situation where I don't have an appetite, is probably not a lack of caloric energy driving that fatigue.
我最终需要吃东西，但无论我感到虚弱或疲劳，都可能是在我没有胃口的情况下，可能不是缺乏热量导致疲劳。
It's that my body is saying, "You know what?
我的身体在说：“你知道吗？
You're better off just not having me shuttle that food energy through you so I can shuttle your immune cells to the proper place."
你最好不要让我将食物能量输送到你体内，这样我就可以将你的免疫细胞输送到正确的地方。”
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And this is when people say the body is smart.
这就是人们说身体很聪明的时候。
There's an intelligence to the system.
该系统具有智能性。
I think that's true because with our brains, we think, "Oh, no, I'll just cram more energy into...
我认为这是真的，因为我们的大脑会想，“哦，不，我只是将更多的能量塞进......
You need to eat.
你需要吃饭。
You need to..." So no, maybe not.
你需要……”所以不，也许不需要。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Whereas if I do have an appetite, I don't care what people say about feed a cold, starve a flu or starve a flu, feed a cold.
然而，如果我确实有胃口，我不在乎人们说什么“喂感冒、挨饿流感”或“挨饿流感、喂感冒”。
I'm just going to do what my body tells me to.
我只会做我的身体告诉我的事情。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yes.
是的。
Yes, and I agree.
是的，我同意。
The body is wise.
身体是有智慧的。
Animals who don't have a very...
没有非常...的动物
Other non-human animals like your dogs-
其他非人类动物，比如你的狗——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
They don't have a mind to distract them from living in alignment with their energetic states.
他们不想分散自己的注意力，不去按照自己的精力状态生活。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
So when they're sick, the immune system, just the part of your budget that gets consumed by the immune system expands, right?
因此，当他们生病时，免疫系统（即被免疫系统消耗的预算部分）就会扩大，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
So this extra energy needs to be stolen from somewhere, because you can't eat more to have infinite energy.
所以这些额外的能量需要从某个地方偷来，因为你不可能吃得更多来拥有无限的能量。
So where is that energy coming from?
那么这些能量从哪里来呢？
And so not contracting your muscles because you feel in pain is a good way.
因此，不要因为感到疼痛而收缩肌肉是一个好方法。
Not having to thermoregulate because you cover up, another way to conserve energy.
不必因为遮盖而进行体温调节，这是节省能量的另一种方式。
And then stopping to care about stuff, like becoming asocial and apathic, and all of those features of sickness behavior or energy conserving strategies.
然后停下来关心一些事情，比如变得不合群和冷漠，以及所有这些疾病行为或节能策略的特征。
And not eating.
而且不吃饭。
If you can have free 10, 15% of your energy, now you can allocate it to your immune system, that is a very good strategy.
如果你能有10%、15%的自由能量，现在你可以把它分配给你的免疫系统，这是一个非常好的策略。
Most people walk around with multiple weeks, if not months, worth of energy under the skin, in our love handles.
大多数人在走路时，皮肤下、手上的把手里都蕴藏着数周甚至数月的能量。
The record, actually, for not eating is from this Scottish man, 382 days.
事实上，不吃东西的记录是由这位苏格兰男子创造的，他是 382 天。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Was he fat when he started?
刚开始的时候胖吗？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
He was very fat.
他很胖。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Was he fat when it ended?
结束时他胖了吗？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
He lost, how much he lost?
他输了，输了多少？
Like 250 pounds, I think.
我想大概有250磅吧。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a lot of stored sandwiches.
这是很多储存的三明治。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So most people can go a full month without eating.
所以大多数人可以整整一个月不吃东西。
And this maybe goes back to what we talked about earlier, we don't feel energy quantity, right?
这也许又回到了我们之前谈到的，我们感觉不到能量的数量，对吧？
If you close your eyes and you feel your energy, you don't feel how much fat you have on your body or how much glycogen you have in your liver or in your muscles.
如果你闭上眼睛，感觉到你的能量，你就感觉不到你的身体有多少脂肪，或者你的肝脏或肌肉中有多少糖原。
What you feel is the transformation of energy.
你感受到的就是能量的转化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The neural energy.
神经能量。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Do you want to do a little experiment?
你想做一个小实验吗？
We can do a little experiment to feel our energy.
我们可以做一个小实验来感受我们的能量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Definitely.
绝对是。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah?
是吗？
Okay.
好的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
By the way, a tenured full professor at Columbia School of Medicine just said, "Do you want to do a little experiment to feel your energy?" And we both closed our eyes, which tells you that it's definitely 2025.
对了，哥伦比亚医学院的一位终身教授刚刚说道：“你想做一个小实验来感受一下你的能量吗？”而我们都闭上了眼睛，这就告诉你，这肯定是2025年了。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
The reason-
原因是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Good things have happened in the world, okay?
世界上已经发生了好事，好吗？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
The reason we both closed our eyes and kind of stopped moving our bodies, which is kind of what you do if you want to meditate or something like this, is because it turns off the noise.
我们都闭上眼睛并停止移动身体的原因（如果你想冥想或类似的事情就会这样做）是因为它会关闭噪音。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Right?
对吗？
And if you want to survive in a dangerous physical world, you need to be aware of stuff that might hurt you or kill you.
如果你想在危险的物质世界中生存，你需要意识到可能会伤害你或杀死你的东西。
And feeling your body, like proprioception and all of this, needs to be very high level.
感觉你的身体，比如本体感觉等等，需要非常高的水平。
It needs to be prioritized over whatever interoceptive signal there are.
它需要优先于任何内感受信号。
There's some interoceptive signal, that's what we'll feel into, that can overcome that.
有一些内感受信号，这就是我们会感受到的，可以克服这一点。
But just not moving the body, closing your eyes, it kind of helps you to tune into your energy, and I suspect there's a lot of value there.
但只要不移动身体，闭上眼睛，就可以帮助你调整自己的能量，我怀疑这有很多价值。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, we'll talk more about some incredible results about meditation and restoration of energy.
是的，我们将更多地讨论有关冥想和能量恢复的一些令人难以置信的结果。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Can the audience do this along with us?
观众可以和我们一起做吗？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Provided they're not driving.
前提是他们不开车。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yes, yes.
是的，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, great.
好的，太好了。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So to do this, best is you're sitting comfortably, and you can close your eyes if you want to.
因此，要做到这一点，最好是你坐得舒服，如果你愿意的话，你可以闭上眼睛。
I think that helps with the process.
我认为这有助于这个过程。
We'll take one breath in, and then we'll hold our breath for a little bit.
我们先吸一口气，然后屏住呼吸一会儿。
So breathing in , breathing out .
如此吸气，呼气。
And you can breathe out all the way down, and then hold that breath.
你可以一直呼气，然后屏住呼吸。
And for the first few seconds, it's generally not too uncomfortable, but then as you hold this, feel into your body, to your belly, into your chest, into your head.
在最初的几秒钟内，通常不会太不舒服，但是当你握住它时，感受你的身体，你的腹部，你的胸部，你的头部。
What's the effect of not breathing?
不呼吸有什么影响？
And then you start to feel maybe this urge to breathe, and this desire to bring oxygen into your body, to your mitochondria.
然后你开始感觉到这种呼吸的冲动，以及这种将氧气带入你的身体、你的线粒体的渴望。
And then when you need to, you take a breath in.
然后当你需要的时候，你吸气。
You can open your eyes.
你可以睁开眼睛了。
If you can hold it longer, you do, yeah.
如果你能坚持更长时间，你就可以了，是的。
What did you feel?
你有什么感觉？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So when I went to the full exhale and held my breath-
所以当我完全呼气并屏住呼吸时——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
what we geek speak, what neuroscientists call interoception, my perception of things from the skin inward, became more salient, and I could feel my heartbeat more and more.
我们极客所说的，神经科学家所说的内感受，我从皮肤向内对事物的感知，变得更加明显，我越来越能感觉到我的心跳。
And then it didn't speed up, but I could just feel my heart beating.
然后速度并没有加快，但我只能感觉到我的心跳。
I was more aware, excuse me, of my heart beating.
对不起，我更清楚地意识到我的心跳。
And then as the impulse to breathe started to kick in, you could feel a bit of ramping up of, it's not anxiety, but it's a sense of urgency.
然后，当呼吸的冲动开始出现时，你会感觉到一点点增强，这不是焦虑，而是一种紧迫感。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hardwired, fortunately-
幸运的是，硬连线——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yes.
是的。
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
sense of urgency.
紧迫感。
And then with an inhale, there's a relaxation of that sense.
然后吸气，这种感觉就会放松。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there is this sense that energy moves out from the center at that point.
在那一点上有一种能量从中心移出的感觉。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like you feel more of your body.
就像你更多地感受到自己的身体一样。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because I think any time we don't have air, our brain goes to, "How do I bring air right here, right now?"
因为我认为任何时候我们没有空气，我们的大脑就会想，“我现在如何把空气带到这里？”
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yes, yes.
是的，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're not thinking heartbeat, you're thinking-
你不是在想心跳，你是在想——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
"Get air."
“呼吸空气。”
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Something of that sort.
类似的东西。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yes.
是的。
I think if you do that and the urgency, the anxiety, the stress, or it feels dangerous, right?
我想如果你这样做的话，你会感到紧迫、焦虑、压力，或者感觉很危险，对吗？
And I think to many people, dying by drowning or suffocation is one of the worst death, and so why is that?
我认为对很多人来说，溺水或窒息而死是最严重的死亡之一，那么这是为什么呢？
What is that sense of urgency, of anxiety?
那种紧迫感、焦虑感是什么？
It's CO2 building up in your blood.
这是二氧化碳在您的血液中积聚。
CO2 is the product that mitochondria release as they transform energy.
二氧化碳是线粒体在转化能量时释放的产物。
And then when CO2 builds up, it means oxygen is getting depleted.
当二氧化碳增多时，就意味着氧气正在耗尽。
If oxygen gets depleted, the electrons from the food you eat can no longer flow.
如果氧气耗尽，你吃的食物中的电子就不能再流动。
If there's no oxygen at the end in your mitochondria to accept the electrons flowing, you stop flowing.
如果线粒体末端没有氧气来接受电子流动，你就会停止流动。
So you, as a movement of energy, are at risk of ceasing to exist.
因此，作为一种能量运动，你正面临着不复存在的风险。
Not being able to breathe, being out of breath, is an existential threat to your energetic self.
无法呼吸、气喘吁吁，对充满活力的自我来说是一种生存威胁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Without getting into the details, I've talked about it on other podcasts, I had a scuba diving accident a few years ago, 2017, ran out of air in a-
没有详细说明，我在其他播客上谈到过，几年前，2017 年，我发生了一次水肺潜水事故，在 -
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in a bad situation to begin with.
一开始就处于糟糕的境地。
And I'll tell you, the sense of urgency is very immediate.
我会告诉你，紧迫感是非常直接的。
And, fortunately didn't end up with any PTSD from that.
而且，幸运的是，最终没有因此而患上任何创伤后应激障碍。
It obviously worked out okay.
显然效果还不错。
I'm sitting here and talking.
我坐在这里说话。
But now I understand why, and I never did this to another kid, nor did anyone ever do it to me, but there's this joke that kids play on one another where their friend is coming up from underwater-
但现在我明白为什么了，我从来没有对另一个孩子这样做过，也没有人对我这样做过，但是有一个笑话，孩子们互相玩耍，他们的朋友从水下上来——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and you're ready to take a breath.
然后你就准备好喘口气了。
That's why you come up from underwater.
这就是你从水下上来的原因。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And if someone holds your head right at that point-
如果此时有人抱住你的头——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Terrible
太糟糕了
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
even though it's just a moment, the sense of urgency that kicks in-
虽然只是一瞬间，但紧迫感却随之而来——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is very intense-
非常激烈——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and very, very fast, which speaks to just how hardwired these circuits are.
而且非常非常快，这说明了这些电路的硬连线程度。
Because at that point, presumably, there was enough air to stay under for another five seconds or whatever it is.
因为那时，大概有足够的空气可以在下面再停留五秒钟或其他什么。
But when we anticipate getting oxygen and we don't-
但是当我们期望获得氧气而我们却没有——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
there's a big increase in stress.
压力大大增加。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Energy goes straight to whatever areas of the brain, amygdala and other areas presumably, that are like, "This is a bad situation.
能量直接进入大脑的任何区域，杏仁核和其他可能的区域，就像，“这是一个糟糕的情况。
Do anything and everything" becomes about resolving the situation.
尽一切努力”变成了解决问题。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yes.
是的。
And that's because we are energy.
那是因为我们是能量。
We are the flowing energy through the system.
我们是系统中流动的能量。
And if energy starts to stall, it just feels so uncomfortable.
如果能量开始停滞，就会感觉很不舒服。
We have to have evolved to feel this.
我们必须进化才能感受到这一点。
If something is making your energy stall, like there's not enough oxygen around, you need to get out of there, and you need to have this instinct, right, to survive.
如果有什么东西让你的能量停滞，比如周围没有足够的氧气，你需要离开那里，你需要有这种本能才能生存。
So what's trying to survive is not like the physical body, it's this flow of energy that's being threatened, right, from lacking oxygen.
因此，试图生存的并不是物质身体，而是能量流因缺氧而受到威胁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Many times already, you've talked about the flow of energy, and that concept I think is going to be threaded through as we go forward.
您已经多次谈到了能量的流动，我认为这个概念将在我们前进的过程中贯穿始终。
When you hear about practices like Tai Chi or when you hear like in the martial arts where people are taking other people's energy and converting, and this is not just a thing of aikido, but the notion that if you box, you learn that you're not just hitting with your arm and your shoulder, you have to keep your feet planted, you're pulling from the floor in some sense.
当你听到像太极拳这样的练习，或者当你听到像武术那样，人们吸收他人的能量并进行转化，这不仅仅是合气道的事情，而是这样一个概念：如果你打拳击，你就会知道你不仅仅是用你的手臂和肩膀击球，你必须保持双脚落地，在某种意义上你是从地板上拉出的。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're transferring the energy, but you're actually pushing back against the floor, and then it's coming up through your body.
你正在传递能量，但实际上你是在向后推地板，然后它就会通过你的身体向上移动。
People talk about the fascial slings, when people run.
当人们跑步时，人们会谈论筋膜吊带。
There are a bazillion different variations on this, but it's all about this concept of flow of energy.
这方面有无数种不同的变化，但都是关于能量流的概念。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I find that so much of what we find incredible when people dance, when people sing, when people do incredible athletic feats or channel everything they've got into something, this channeling of energy, is the human animal deliberately channeling all their energy in the form of practice into something.
我发现，当人们跳舞时，当人们唱歌时，当人们做出令人难以置信的运动壮举或将他们所拥有的一切引导到某件事上时，这种能量的引导，是人类动物故意以练习的形式将他们所有的能量引导到某件事上。
In many ways, we love that-
从很多方面来说，我们都喜欢——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
even though by definition, it creates a very lopsided person.
尽管根据定义，它创造了一个非常不平衡的人。
And I'm not trying to get into the psychology of this so much as I want to go back to this notion of our brain areas having different amounts of mitochondria-
我并不是想深入探讨这方面的心理学，而是想回到我们的大脑区域具有不同数量的线粒体的概念 -
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
probably from birth.
可能从出生起。
But then, if we play soccer, and we like math and pottery, we get a different brain than if we like reading and theater and movies, and we'll exercise, but we're not too crazy about it.
但是，如果我们踢足球，喜欢数学和陶艺，我们的大脑就会不同于喜欢阅读、戏剧和电影的大脑，我们会锻炼身体，但我们并不太热衷于此。
If we exercise, our brain works better, we've heard.
我们听说，如果我们锻炼身体，我们的大脑就会更好地工作。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But there's also the notion of the person who just spends all their time exercising and their brain doesn't get better.
但也有人认为，如果一个人把所有时间都花在锻炼上，他们的大脑却不会变得更好。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm being gentle there.
我在那里很温柔。
And I like exercise-
而且我喜欢运动——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and I like thinking.
我喜欢思考。
So-
所以——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Is there a trade-off?
有一个权衡吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is there a trade-off?
有一个权衡吗？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because I believe in staying fit and staying healthy and living a long life, but most people are not competitive athletes.
因为我相信保持健康、长寿，但大多数人都不是竞技运动员。
Most people don't want to be the strongest person in the gym or the best runner.
大多数人不想成为健身房里最强壮的人或最好的跑步者。
Most people, I believe, and I'm one of these, I want to be strong enough, I want to have endurance, I want to have some speed, but I want to be able to think.
我相信大多数人，我也是其中之一，我想要足够强壮，我想要有耐力，我想要有一些速度，但我想要能够思考。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I want my mitochondria balanced across all my systems.
我希望我的线粒体在我的所有系统中保持平衡。
My girlfriend would say, "Well, you're a Libra.
我女朋友会说：“好吧，你是天秤座。
Of course you do." But I'm saying I want it because I want to be able to lean into a lot of different aspects of life.
你当然知道。”但我说我想要它是因为我希望能够涉足生活的许多不同方面。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I don't want to become the atrophied in one area and hypertrophied to some great extent in some other area human.
我不想成为一个在某一方面萎缩而在其他方面大幅度肥大的人。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So what are your thoughts on these, through the lens of the results that you-
那么，通过你的结果来看，你对这些有何看法——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
recently published, is it a trade-off?
最近出版了，这是一个权衡吗？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
I don't think we know exactly, but we did a study recently that points to the fact that there might be trade-offs-
我不认为我们确切知道，但我们最近做了一项研究，指出可能存在权衡的事实 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
between different systems.
不同系统之间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sorry, meatheads.
对不起，肉头们。
No, I'm just kidding.
不，我只是开玩笑。
I love working out in the gym, but you have to read, too.
我喜欢在健身房锻炼，但你也必须读书。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
We tested the hypothesis that if you have more mitochondria in your muscles, you also have more in your brain and in your heart and in your liver and in your skin.
我们测试了这样一个假设：如果你的肌肉中有更多的线粒体，那么你的大脑、心脏、肝脏和皮肤中也会有更多的线粒体。
And the result is that's not the case.
而结果却并非如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And you, Andrew, I think you seem to derive a lot of fulfillment and you live up to your full potential when you can do all of these things, right?
而你，安德鲁，我认为当你能做所有这些事情时，你似乎获得了很多成就感，并且充分发挥了你的潜力，对吗？
And you're a great communicator.
你是一位出色的沟通者。
You're a great integrator.
你是一位出色的集成商。
The kind of thinking you do is this beautiful integrative thinking, which might be what has led you to do what you do now, right, with most of your time, because this really taps into your strengths.
你所做的思考就是这种美丽的综合思考，这可能是引导你做你现在所做的事情的原因，对吧，用你的大部分时间，因为这真正发挥了你的优势。
It really moves you, I suspect, energetically.
我怀疑，它确实让你充满活力。
I think I-
我想我-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I enjoy it.
我很享受。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
You enjoy it.
你喜欢它。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I enjoy it, yeah.
我很享受，是的。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
What does that mean?
这意味着什么？
Right?
正确的？
Enjoyment is kind of an emotional state, an affective state, that it's an energetic state.
享受是一种情绪状态，一种情感状态，一种充满活力的状态。
We're all different energy transformers, right?
我们都是不同的能量转换器，对吗？
You transform energy, and you have this ability to do what you do.
你转化了能量，你就有能力去做你所做的事情。
Other people have very different skills, right, and gifts.
其他人有非常不同的技能、权利和天赋。
I think we're born with something that doesn't seem to be fully just encoded in people's genomes.
我认为我们与生俱来的东西似乎并没有完全编码在人类的基因组中。
There are genetically identical twins-
存在着基因相同的双胞胎——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
that have very different aptitudes and personalities, and we don't know where this comes from.
他们有着截然不同的才能和性格，我们不知道这些差异从何而来。
And then we are fed.
然后我们就吃饱了。
We're moved and inspired by different things.
我们被不同的事物所感动和启发。
And when people seem to follow that, it appears to bring them energy.
当人们似乎遵循这一点时，它似乎会给他们带来能量。
And what this means biologically, the role of mitochondria, I think our research is starting to point in a direction that says if You're engaged in things that bring you purpose and fulfillment.
这在生物学上意味着什么，线粒体的作用，我认为我们的研究开始指向一个方向，即你是否从事能给你带来目标和成就感的事情。
There's another study we did.
我们还做了另一项研究。
Our colleagues in Chicago asked people before they died, like, "How much sense of purpose do you have in your life?
我们芝加哥的同事在人们去世前问他们，比如“你的人生有多少目标感？
How meaningful social connections, well-being?" Right?
社会关系、幸福感如何有意义？”正确的？
And then the negative stuff, depression, loneliness, anxiety.
然后是消极的东西，抑郁、孤独、焦虑。
And then every year they answered those questionnaires, so we knew how these people felt about themselves, about life, about some greater power beyond them.
然后每年他们都会回答这些问卷，所以我们知道这些人对自己、对生活、对超越他们的更大力量的感受。
And then they died, gave their brain to science.
然后他们死了，把他们的大脑献给了科学。
We got a little piece of brain, and now we're measuring the mitochondria.
我们有一小块大脑，现在我们正在测量线粒体。
And Caroline Trump, a researcher who works in our group who's a bona fide mitochondrial psychobiologist, so she asks questions between the psyche and the biology of mitochondria.
我们小组的研究员卡罗琳·特朗普（Caroline Trump）是一位真正的线粒体心理生物学家，所以她在线粒体的心理和生物学之间提出了问题。
So she asked, could it be that how people felt before they died relates to the mitochondria in their brain, in the prefrontal cortex, the DLPFC, the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex.
所以她问道，人们死前的感受是否与大脑、前额叶皮层、DLPFC（背外侧前额叶皮层）中的线粒体有关。
And what she found is that people who felt more purpose in life, and who felt more connected to others, and who felt well-being for whatever was bringing them well-being, it seemed like that was sufficient to increase the energy transformation capacity of the mitochondria in their brain.
她发现，那些感觉生活更有目标、感觉与他人联系更紧密、对任何给他们带来幸福的事物感到幸福的人，似乎足以增加他们大脑中线粒体的能量转换能力。
So is this because of the experiences that they're fortunate to have or that they're actively fostering in their life that's actually transforming the mitochondria in their brain?
那么，这是因为他们有幸拥有的经历，还是他们在生活中积极培养的经历，实际上改变了他们大脑中的线粒体？
Maybe.
或许。
Or it's the other way around.
或者恰恰相反。
For some reason that we don't understand, they have more of the energy transformation capacity in their brain mitochondria, and that is leading them to experience the world as more positive, and as more purposeful, and as more meaningful, right?
由于某种我们不明白的原因，他们的大脑线粒体具有更多的能量转换能力，这导致他们体验到更积极、更有目的、更有意义的世界，对吗？
Animal studies say it probably goes both ways.
动物研究表明，这可能是双向的。
So if you tweak the mitochondria in a rat brain, you can change the behavior of that animal from more submissive to more dominant or from more dominant to more submissive.
因此，如果你调整老鼠大脑中的线粒体，你就可以改变该动物的行为，从更顺从到更占主导地位，或者从更占主导地位到更顺从。
Beautiful work by Carmen Sandi at EPFL in Switzerland that showed this.
瑞士洛桑联邦理工学院 (EPFL) 的卡门·桑迪 (Carmen Sandi) 的精彩作品就证明了这一点。
And then the other way around, if you chronically stress animals, you deprive them of freedom of choosing different options, so chronically stressful things actually damage the mitochondria in the brain.
相反，如果你长期给动物施加压力，你就会剥夺它们选择不同选择的自由，所以长期承受压力的事情实际上会损害大脑中的线粒体。
And in some brain areas, there are fewer mitochondria, and they don't transform energy as well.
在某些大脑区域，线粒体较少，而且它们也不能转化能量。
So the mitochondria are responsive, it seems, to our states of mind, and that the mitochondria in our brain can also influence our states of mind.
因此，线粒体似乎对我们的精神状态做出反应，而我们大脑中的线粒体也可以影响我们的精神状态。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And if we want to talk about the philosophy of this, thinking about what's causing what maybe isn't really the right question to ask.
如果我们想谈论这一点的哲学，思考是什么导致了这可能并不是真正要问的正确问题。
But what's emerging that's relevant to your question, there's a clear connection between the subjective experiences that we have, that we know from first person to be meaningful, right?
但是正在出现的与你的问题相关的内容，我们所拥有的主观体验之间存在明显的联系，我们从第一人称中知道这些体验是有意义的，对吗？
Because that's what we have access to primarily, is how we feel, how we experience the world somehow is related to the biology of the energy-transforming units, energy processing units in our brain.
因为这就是我们主要能够获得的，就是我们的感觉，我们如何体验世界，在某种程度上与我们大脑中的能量转换单元、能量处理单元的生物学有关。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Man.
伙计。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And maybe also in our immune system, and so we've done work in immune cells and in brain tissue.
也许也在我们的免疫系统中，所以我们已经在免疫细胞和脑组织中进行了研究。
And we're currently analyzing mitochondria from 5,000 human brain samples.
我们目前正在分析 5,000 个人脑样本中的线粒体。
That's 10 different brain and muscle samples from 500 people.
这是来自 500 人的 10 个不同的大脑和肌肉样本。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you have histories on these people as to-
你有关于这些人的历史吗-
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah, same
是啊，一样
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
how much purpose, what they did-
他们的目的有多大，他们做了什么——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
how much life fulfillment they had?
他们有多少生活成就感？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm so glad that biologists like you exist.
我很高兴有像你这样的生物学家存在。
I just want to say that.
我只想这么说。
Not just because you're agreeing to be a public health educator, but just it's incredible how much things have changed in the last few years in terms of the public awareness about biology and psychology.
不仅仅是因为您同意成为一名公共卫生教育者，而且在过去几年中，公众对生物学和心理学的认识发生了令人难以置信的巨大变化。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I have the genuine sense that with you doing the kind of work that you're doing, that no longer are we going to be talking about the Eastern philosophy of energy versus mitochondria in a laboratory at some medical school, at an Ivy League medical school.
但我真正感觉到，随着你所做的工作，我们将不再在某所医学院、一所常春藤盟校医学院的实验室里谈论能量与线粒体的东方哲学。
But you're merging these ideas in real data, and I think it's going to bring together ideas that have been in cooperation for a long time but didn't realize it, and I think it's going to transform human health.
但是你将这些想法合并到真实数据中，我认为它将汇集长期合作但没有意识到的想法，我认为它将改变人类健康。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because if we think about ourselves as energy transformation beings, we're going to think pretty carefully about where we invest our time and energy, and also, I do think start to listen to our bodies more when we're feeling shut down.
因为如果我们将自己视为能量转化生物，我们就会非常仔细地思考我们在哪里投入了时间和精力，而且，我确实认为当我们感到封闭时，开始更多地倾听我们的身体。
Like, what does that mean?
比如说，这是什么意思？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now, we can't respond to everything as just a, well, does it give me energy, not give me energy, because we also have to build up some circuits to be proficient in life-
现在，我们不能对一切做出反应，只是，嗯，它给我能量了吗，不给我能量，因为我们还必须建立一些电路才能精通生活——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that perhaps are inconvenient for us to build up.
这也许对我们来说不方便建立。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Resistance.
抵抗。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But at the same time, I think there's a lot to be gained from this idea of does something give me energy.
但与此同时，我认为从“做某事给我能量”的想法中可以获得很多东西。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think people confuse drama and friction with certain people as like that's energy expenditure.
我认为人们将戏剧性和与某些人的摩擦混为一谈，就像能量消耗一样。
That's not good transformation of energy.
这不是很好的能量转化。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you hear about this stuff now-
你现在听说了这些事——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
more in the psychology relationship space.
更多地涉及心理学关系空间。
People will say, "They're not good for my nervous system." It's so funny how neuroscientists now-
人们会说：“它们对我的神经系统不好。”神经科学家现在的做法真是太有趣了——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Oh, the brain.
哦，大脑。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or, "I just feel relaxed around them," or, "I can sleep next to them so comfortably."
或者，“在他们身边我感觉很放松”，或者“我可以睡在他们旁边很舒服”。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we kind of write these things off as like, oh, that's cute.
我们把这些事情一笔勾销，就像，哦，这很可爱。
That's kind of woo.
这真是太棒了。
Uh-uh, this sounds like real biology if pushed through the lens of what you're telling us about mitochondria as energy transformation units.
呃呃，如果从你告诉我们线粒体作为能量转换单位的角度来看，这听起来像是真正的生物学。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yep.
是的。
I think everything you just mentioned doesn't make much sense from this molecular biology lens that's really captured biomedicine.
我认为你刚才提到的一切从真正捕捉生物医学的分子生物学角度来看没有多大意义。
Many years ago, 50 years ago or so, there was this wave of, whoa, there's DNA that exists, and there's proteins.
许多年前，大约 50 年前，出现过这样的浪潮，哇，DNA 存在，蛋白质也存在。
We can sequence stuff.
我们可以对事物进行排序。
We can measure the components of a cell, and we can look at things under the microscope, and we can scan the brain, and all of those assets that we were all of a sudden able to capture.
我们可以测量细胞的组成部分，我们可以在显微镜下观察事物，我们可以扫描大脑，以及我们突然能够捕获的所有这些资产。
It was really convincing, compelling.
这真是令人信服、令人信服。
We built a whole research and academic science ecosystem around this.
我们围绕此建立了一个完整的研究和学术科学生态系统。
And I think by nature, this reductionistic framework pushed aside the mind Right?
我认为从本质上讲，这种还原论框架将思想抛在了一边，对吗？
All of the subjective experiences, it's in your head or whatever, all of this was pushed aside.
所有的主观体验，无论是在你的头脑中还是其他什么，所有这些都被抛在了一边。
So the human experience is the most direct way in which you can know whether the content of your life matches your energy, right, and matches what matters for you and what you really care about.
所以人类的经历是最直接的方式，你可以通过它知道你的生活内容是否与你的精力相匹配，对吧，是否与对你来说重要的、你真正关心的相匹配。
So, pushing aside, which is what biomedicine has done, pushing aside the mind and all of those subjective experience, I think has been really damaging to understanding the basis of health and understanding what allows some people to be healthy for a really long time, and to live long, healthy lives, and to live fulfilled lives.
因此，抛开生物医学所做的事情，抛开心灵和所有这些主观体验，我认为对于理解健康的基础以及理解是什么让一些人能够长期保持健康，以及长寿、健康的生活和充实的生活来说，确实是有害的。
If we think of ourselves as molecular machines, there's no way we can make sense of this.
如果我们将自己视为分子机器，我们就无法理解这一点。
And then we have consciousness research that's trying to make sense of this beautiful spectrum of human experience, right?
然后我们进行意识研究，试图理解人类经验的这一美丽范围，对吗？
From, "I can't get up in the morning, taking a shower is too difficult, and I'd rather die." This is one end of the spectrum.
来自，“早上起不来，洗澡太难了，我宁愿死。”这是该范围的一端。
And then the other end is, "Oh my God, the world is so beautiful.
然后另一端是：“天哪，世界是如此美丽。
I'm so grateful.
我很感激。
I feel inspired to be a good person, and I can do good in this world." Right?
我感到受到启发，要做一个好人，我可以在这个世界上做好事。”正确的？
And then everything in between.
然后是介于两者之间的一切。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And we're left now, we don't have a science of this.
现在我们已经离开了，我们对此没有科学依据。
We've said this is not science.
我们说过这不是科学。
This is psychology.
这是心理学。
This is woo stuff, and we can't access this with biomolecular science.
这是很神奇的东西，我们无法通过生物分子科学来了解它。
And I think it's true.
我认为这是真的。
I don't have a lot of hope that we will make great inroads in fully capturing the nature of consciousness, the nature of the human experience, the nature of well-being, of what it means to be a fulfilled human being that lives up to their full potential.
我对我们能够在充分捕捉意识的本质、人类体验的本质、幸福的本质以及成为一个充分发挥其全部潜力的人类意味着什么方面取得巨大进展抱有很大的希望。
I don't think at this point that we'll find answers in molecular biology.
我认为目前我们无法在分子生物学中找到答案。
But what I do think is that an energetic understanding of life and an energetic understanding of ourselves, right, as a flow of energy, not as the molecules and the metabolism that support this flow, but as the flow itself, I think that is kind of a point of consilience.
但我确实认为，对生命的积极理解和对我们自己的积极理解，对吧，作为能量流，不是作为支持这种流动的分子和新陈代谢，而是作为流动本身，我认为这是一种共识。
Energy flow is the linchpin between matter, the stuff of biology, and experiences.
能量流是物质、生物学和经验之间的关键。
Again, we don't experience energy itself.
再说一遍，我们并没有体验到能量本身。
We experience a transformation of energy.
我们经历了能量的转变。
When energy flows through this metabolic circuitry that we have, metabolism is just an energetic circuitry, electrons flowing not as free electrons in a copper wire, but as electrons from food to oxygen through enzymes.
当能量流过我们拥有的代谢电路时，新陈代谢只是一个能量电路，电子不是以铜线中的自由电子的形式流动，而是以电子通过酶从食物到氧气的形式流动。
Right?
正确的？
So this thing is a metabolic carbon-based energetic circuit.
所以这个东西是一个代谢碳基能量回路。
And when energy flows through this, somehow, for reasons we don't fully understand, it feels like something.
当能量流过这里时，不知何故，由于我们不完全理解的原因，感觉就像有什么东西。
Right?
正确的？
And emotions, energy in motion, subjective experiences of feeling inspired and doing good or feeling terrible, wanting to die, these states all live and all emerge from the transformation of energy.
情绪、运动中的能量、受到启发、做好事或感觉糟糕、想死的主观体验，这些状态都是活生生的，都是从能量的转化中产生的。
Energy is kind of that consilience point where we have behaviors, everything we do in neuroimaging, right, the EEG, whatever.
能量是我们行为、我们在神经影像学中所做的一切的一致性点，对吧，脑电图等等。
When we look at the brain, we're really looking at energy patterns.
当我们观察大脑时，我们实际上是在观察能量模式。
If you just change how much energy flows in one region or another, you change the anatomy, you change the biochemistry, and then that gets encoded.
如果你只是改变一个区域或另一个区域的能量流动量，你就会改变解剖结构，改变生物化学，然后这些就会被编码。
If energy flows a certain way or is patterned a certain way, it will change how genes are expressed, right?
如果能量以某种方式流动或以某种方式形成模式，它将改变基因的表达方式，对吧？
It will change the epigenome because of metabolites and whatever intermediates are there.
由于代谢物和任何中间体的存在，它会改变表观基因组。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function.
我想稍微休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。
Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.
去年，在寻找最全面的实验室测试方法后，我成为了 Function 成员。
Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health.
Function 提供 100 多项高级实验室测试，为您提供整个身体健康状况的关键快照。
This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more.
此快照为您提供有关心脏健康、激素健康、免疫功能、营养水平等方面的见解。
They've also recently added tests for toxins, such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics, and tests for PFAS, or forever chemicals.
他们最近还增加了毒素测试，例如有害塑料中的 BPA 暴露，以及 PFAS 或永久化学物质的测试。
Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas.
Function 不仅提供对您的身心健康至关重要的 100 多种生物标记物的测试，而且还分析这些结果并提供相关领域专家的顶级医生的见解。
For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood.
例如，在我第一次使用 Function 进行测试时，我发现我的血液中汞含量升高。
Function not only helped me detect that but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC, N-acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification.
功能不仅帮助我发现了这一点，还提供了如何最好地降低汞含量的见解，其中包括限制我的金枪鱼消费，我一直在吃大量金枪鱼，同时还努力多吃绿叶蔬菜并补充 NAC、N-乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都可以支持谷胱甘肽的产生和解毒。
And I should say, by taking a second Function test, that approach worked.
我应该说，通过进行第二次功能测试，这种方法奏效了。
Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important.
全面的血液检测至关重要。
There are so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test.
有很多与您的心理和身体健康相关的事情只能通过血液检查来检测。
The problem is blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated.
问题是血液检测一直非常昂贵且复杂。
In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost.
相比之下，Function 的简单性和成本水平给我留下了深刻的印象。
It is very affordable.
这是非常实惠的。
As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast.
因此，我决定加入他们的科学顾问委员会，我很高兴他们赞助了这个播客。
If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman.
如果您想尝试 Function，可以访问 functionhealth.com/huberman。
Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman Podcast listeners.
Function 目前有超过 250,000 人的等候名单，但他们正在为 Huberman 播客听众提供早期访问服务。
Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function.
同样，可以通过 functionhealth.com/huberman 提前访问 Function。
What I think has been missing in this whole landscape of health, frankly, has been somebody who understands the different levels of analysis.
坦率地说，我认为整个健康领域一直缺少的是理解不同层次分析的人。
A great neuroscientist now at NYU once told me that a real intellectual, of which you are, is somebody that understands and can communicate something at multiple levels of granularity.
现在纽约大学的一位伟大的神经科学家曾经告诉我，真正的知识分子，就像你一样，是一个能够理解并能够在多个粒度级别上进行交流的人。
That's very, very important.
这非常非常重要。
So I'm very reassured by everything I'm hearing and where this is taking us.
因此，我对所听到的一切以及这将我们带向何方感到非常放心。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
That takes us to your ...
这将带我们到您的...
opening question, which takes us through mitochondria and how that affects cellular and organ and behaviors.
开场问题，它带我们了解线粒体以及它如何影响细胞、器官和行为。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
I think what we just touched on here is mitochondria flowing, transforming energy, and then that energy kind of ripples out-
我认为我们刚刚在这里谈到的是线粒体流动、转化能量，然后那种能量产生涟漪——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
at the level of the cell, and there are metabolites that are mitochondria-producing.
在细胞水平上，有产生线粒体的代谢物。
Based on the energetic state of the mitochondria, there'll be more acetyl-CoA and citrate and lactate and alpha-ketoglutarate, and those are all molecular imprints of an energetic state.
根据线粒体的能量状态，将会有更多的乙酰辅酶A、柠檬酸盐、乳酸和α-酮戊二酸，这些都是能量状态的分子印记。
And then those molecules carry this energetic signature that's in the mitochondria to the nucleus, and then boom, they get written down as the epigenome.
然后这些分子将线粒体中的能量特征携带到细胞核，然后轰鸣，它们被记录为表观基因组。
And now the cell all of a sudden has this gene turned down, turned off, or this other gene turned on, and now the cell is a different kind of cell-
现在细胞突然关闭了这个基因，或者打开了另一个基因，现在细胞是一种不同类型的细胞-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
because there was a change at the energetic level in the mitochondria.
因为线粒体的能量水平发生了变化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And then that ripples out.
然后就产生了涟漪。
Now the cell experiences its environment in a certain way energetically, right?
现在细胞以某种方式积极地体验其环境，对吗？
It starts in the mitochondria, ripples out to the nucleus.
它从线粒体开始，波及细胞核。
Now the nucleus is able to make proteins like cytokines.
现在细胞核能够产生细胞因子等蛋白质。
And so cytokines, in many ways, are signatures of an underlying energetic state.
因此，细胞因子在很多方面都是潜在能量状态的标志。
So what we call inflammation, my understanding of inflammation is it's an energetic state.
所以我们所说的炎症，我对炎症的理解是它是一种能量状态。
And in many cases, if the energy doesn't flow freely or with low resistance in the system, if you're a cell and either you're running out of oxygen, right, you're hypoxic, electrons can't flow.
在许多情况下，如果能量不能自由流动或系统中的阻力较低，如果你是一个细胞，或者你的氧气耗尽了，对吧，你缺氧了，电子就无法流动。
As a cell, you have this primal experience of what you experienced earlier, right?
作为一个细胞，你有你之前经历过的这种原始体验，对吗？
You're not breathing.
你没有呼吸。
You're like , "I have to take a breath, or I'm going to die."
你会说，“我必须喘口气，否则我就要死了。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
So if you're a cell and you experience a version of this, a really primal version of this-
所以如果你是一个细胞并且你经历了这样的一个版本，一个非常原始的版本——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
you need to do something.
你需要做点什么。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you call out.
于是你就喊出来。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
You call out.
你喊一声。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
You call out for help, and that's where-
你大声呼救，结果就是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's where the cytokines come in.
这就是细胞因子发挥作用的地方。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Cytokines are universal language of cell-cell communication.
细胞因子是细胞间通讯的通用语言。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Cytokines are not immune.
细胞因子也不能免疫。
They're this fundamental way that cells have to talk to each other.
它们是细胞相互交流的基本方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Assuming that it is this repeating set of principles of energetic flow, let's get a little woo for a moment.
假设这是一组重复的能量流原理，让我们暂时了解一下。
Let's get really woo for a moment.
让我们真正地求爱一下吧。
We are in California.
我们在加利福尼亚州。
Because I am beginning to understand it's grounded in real biology.
因为我开始明白它是基于真正的生物学。
For instance, people have heard of the 27 Club.
例如，人们听说过27俱乐部。
It's not a club anyone wants to be a part of, which are incredible musicians and artists who just seem to have this incredible talent and intensity, and they die at 27.
这不是一个任何人都想加入的俱乐部，这里有令人难以置信的音乐家和艺术家，他们似乎拥有令人难以置信的天赋和强度，但他们在 27 岁时去世了。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And there are, of course, certain things like music and art, sometimes there's overuse of substances and substances were almost always involved in these various cases.
当然，还有某些事情，例如音乐和艺术，有时会过度使用物质，而这些不同的情况几乎总是涉及物质。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
For sure, yeah.
当然，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Jim Morrison and Jimi Hendrix and Janis Joplin, and there are others.
吉姆·莫里森、吉米·亨德里克斯和贾尼斯·乔普林，还有其他人。
I don't know if they're all in the 27 Club, but I believe so.
我不知道他们是否都在27俱乐部，但我相信是的。
And there are others.
还有其他的。
But this idea that for people whose, quote-unquote, "flame burns really hot," their intensity, their charisma early on, they tend to die young, and if not at 27, there are a lot of examples of this.
但对于那些“火焰燃烧得非常炽热”、他们的热情、他们早年的魅力的人来说，他们往往会英年早逝，即使不是在 27 岁时，这样的例子也有很多。
If you look into these different cases, not the ones I just mentioned, you often find that there was amphetamine use.
如果你研究这些不同的案例，而不是我刚才提到的案例，你经常会发现有人使用安非他命。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you say, "Well, what is amphetamine and cocaine use really?"
你会说：“那么，安非他明和可卡因的真正用途是什么？”
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, it taps into the dopamine system, the epinephrine system.
嗯，它利用了多巴胺系统、肾上腺素系统。
This is definitely the stuff of energetic deployment and release and transformation.
这绝对是能量的调动、释放、转化的东西。
These are not drugs that subdue people.
这些不是制服人的药物。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
These are drugs that energize people.
这些是使人充满活力的药物。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yes.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's as if really there was a lot more life packed into a shorter period of time-
就好像真的有更多的生命被压缩在更短的时间内——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yep
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and they die early.
他们死得很早。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In a parallel vein, I once had a conversation with someone that I understood was a child prodigy, and he stopped me at one point and he said, "No, former child prodigy." And I thought, "Okay, we're being kind of detailed here." But I went and started reading about child prodigies.
同样，我曾经和一个我认为是神童的人交谈过，他有一次阻止了我，他说：“不，以前的神童。”我想，“好吧，我们在这里有点详细了。”但我开始阅读有关神童的文章。
You don't meet many adults that are brilliant who continue to get brilliant their entire life, more and more and more and more brilliant.
你不会遇到很多聪明的成年人，他们一生都在不断变得聪明，而且越来越聪明。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
In other words, child prodigies eventually plateau.
换句话说，神童最终会趋于稳定。
They just get there a little earlier-
他们只是早到了一点——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and in some cases, a lot earlier.
在某些情况下，更早。
Have you ever heard of somebody graduating medical school at 16 and then becoming the best physician in their field, continuing into their 70s and 80s?
您是否听说过有人 16 岁从医学院毕业，然后成为所在领域最好的医生，一直持续到 70 岁和 80 岁？
No.
不。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People caught up.
人们追上了。
People catch up to prodigies.
人们追赶神童。
And so there's this idea perhaps that the allocation of energy, when it's really directed in time and in space to certain circuits of the body, we see incredible feats.
因此，也许有这样的想法：当能量的分配真正在时间和空间上定向到身体的某些回路时，我们会看到令人难以置信的壮举。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And we're like, "Whoa." But then it doesn't continue forever.
我们就像，“哇。”但这样的情况不会永远持续下去。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'm going to bring this around to this concept of longevity in a moment, but I'd love your thoughts on that.
稍后我将讨论长寿的概念，但我很想听听您对此的想法。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And then I'd like to talk about how the things that all of us can do can keep our mitochondrial reservoir high enough so that we can allocate it in different directions.
然后我想谈谈我们所有人可以做的事情如何使我们的线粒体储存库保持足够高，以便我们可以将其分配到不同的方向。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But just curious your thoughts about people who their fire burns really bright-
但只是好奇你对那些火焰燃烧得非常明亮的人的想法-
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and then it goes out early.
然后它就早早地出去了。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And prodigies seem to channel all their energy and do phenomenal things, and we're delighted by the doctor who's 16-
神童们似乎会倾尽全力，做出非凡的事情，我们对这位 16 岁的医生感到很高兴——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Precocious, yeah
早熟是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
or the person who graduated law school, took the bar at 17 or something.
或者从法学院毕业，17 岁左右就考取了律师资格的人。
But then you look later and they're doing interesting things, but they're not phenomenal later in life.
但后来你再看，他们正在做一些有趣的事情，但他们在以后的生活中并不出色。
People caught up.
人们追上了。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
There's a parallel in biology, which is how different species develop much faster, and then they reach reproductive age much faster-
生物学中有一个相似之处，即不同物种的发育速度要快得多，然后它们才能更快地达到繁殖年龄——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
and then they die much earlier.
然后他们就死得更早了。
Like mice, for example.
例如，像老鼠一样。
They live two to three years, and they develop really quickly.
它们的寿命为两到三年，而且发育得很快。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
So everything is accelerated.
所以一切都在加速。
And there's two beautiful papers, one published in "Nature", one published in "Science", on the same month in 2023, that I think shed some light on this.
2023 年同月，有两篇精彩的论文，一篇发表在《自然》杂志上，一篇发表在《科学》杂志上，我认为它们对此有所启发。
They ask what controls the pace of development In mice and in humans.
他们询问是什么控制了小鼠和人类的发育速度。
And so they took mouse cells, human cells, stem cells, put them in a dish, and then you look for the rhythm of development.
因此，他们将小鼠细胞、人类细胞、干细胞放入培养皿中，然后寻找发育的节奏。
And they found that as others had seen before, the mouse cells, which came from an animal that develops, grows, and dies in three years, versus human cells, an organism that develops, grows, and dies in like 80-ish years, have very different developmental rates.
他们发现，正如其他人之前所看到的那样，小鼠细胞（来自一种在三年内发育、生长和死亡的动物）与人类细胞（一种在大约 80 年左右的时间里发育、生长和死亡的有机体）具有截然不同的发育速度。
And then they ask what's different between that?
然后他们问这有什么不同？
What controls the pace of development?
是什么控制着发展的速度？
And they found that the main driver of this, and then they did experiments where you can accelerate or decelerate the pace of development by modulating mitochondrial metabolism.
他们发现了这一现象的主要驱动力，然后他们进行了实验，通过调节线粒体代谢来加速或减慢发育速度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And when you say mitochondrial metabolism, is it fair to go back to the analogy of the Morse code-
当你说线粒体新陈代谢时，回到摩尔斯电码的类比是否公平？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
thing where the animals that develop quickly and die earlier, it's like a faster transformation of energy.
动物发育快、死亡早，就像能量转换更快。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
And that was regulated by NAD.
这是由 NAD 监管的。
I think a few people who listen to this know about NAD.
我想有几个听过这个的人都知道NAD。
And so NAD seems to be kind of a dial on the rate at which energy is transformed.
因此，NAD 似乎是能量转化速度的调节器。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So interesting.
太有趣了。
Long ago, I was getting frustrated because all the discussions in the longevity space were failing to acknowledge, I'm a developmental neurobiologist first, that development is the most rapid period of aging ever.
很久以前，我感到沮丧，因为所有关于长寿领域的讨论都没有承认，我首先是一名发育神经生物学家，发育是有史以来最快的衰老时期。
Look at a kid at one versus three.
看看一个孩子一对三的比赛。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a lot of aging.
那就是衰老很多。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
And a lot of energy.
还有很多能量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We don't think of it as aging because they haven't peaked in terms of their vitality and their maturation yet.
我们不认为这是衰老，因为他们的活力和成熟度还没有达到顶峰。
Look at somebody before and after puberty.
看看某人青春期前后的情况。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
First of all, completely different organism of any species, right?
首先，任何物种的生物体都是完全不同的，对吧？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Person.
人。
Different personality.
个性不同。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But also much more ra-- But it's probably the fastest rate of aging we ever undergo.
但这可能是我们经历过的最快的衰老速度。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so I had this theory that I'd love somebody to test.
所以我有了这个理论，我希望有人来测试。
Maybe your lab could do this.
也许你的实验室可以做到这一点。
If you look at the rate at which people acquire secondary sex characteristics going through puberty-
如果你看看人们在青春期获得第二性征的速度——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
typically, they acquire one or several all at one stage, and then it continues.
通常，他们会在一个阶段获得一个或多个，然后继续。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
How long the acquisition of secondary sex characteristics carries on-
第二性征的获得要持续多久——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
essentially is a measure of the duration of puberty because it reflects a bunch of changes in the hypothalamus, we know that.
本质上是青春期持续时间的衡量标准，因为我们知道它反映了下丘脑的一系列变化。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that it cascades out to the body, hormones, and so forth.
它会级联到身体、荷尔蒙等。
I knew kids in junior high school who we went away for a summer, we came back, and there was a kid on my soccer team.
我认识一些初中的孩子，我们出去度了一个夏天，然后回来，我的足球队里有一个孩子。
I'm like, "That's a grown man." Like he had a beard and he...
我想，“这就是一个成年人了。”就像他有胡子一样，他...
But I won't mention who this is.
但我不会提及这个人是谁。
And he was very muscular and lean, and he would score like nine goals every time.
他肌肉发达，身材瘦削，每次都能进九个球。
He went to the more advanced soccer league and stuff.
他去了更高级的足球联赛之类的。
I saw him in my 30s, and I was like, wow, he is-- And there was no envy or upset about this, or schadenfreude or anything.
我 30 多岁的时候看到他，我当时想，哇，他是——对此我没有嫉妒或不安，也没有幸灾乐祸或其他什么。
I really like him as a person.
我真的很喜欢他这个人。
I was like, "Oh, he looks like he's like 45." He had aged much more.
我当时想，“哦，他看上去好像 45 岁了。”他已经老了很多。
And then I knew other people that had, they kind of matured more slowly.
然后我认识了其他人，他们成熟得更慢。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And sure, lifestyle factors play in here, but they were developing in a way as adults where you're like, wow, they're really taking great care of themselves.
当然，生活方式因素在这里发挥着作用，但他们在某种程度上以成年人的方式发展，你会觉得，哇，他们真的很照顾自己。
But it speaks to this idea that first of all, that maybe the rate at which one moves through puberty is predictive of lifespan.
但它说明了这个想法：首先，也许一个人进入青春期的速度可以预测寿命。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Plus or minus some lifestyle factors.
加或减一些生活方式因素。
So what are your thoughts on that?
那么你对此有何看法？
Is it conceivable?
可以想象吗？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
I think it's conceivable.
我认为这是可以想象的。
And there's nice data on energy expenditure, how much energy is the body burning-
还有关于能量消耗的很好的数据，身体燃烧了多少能量——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
to go through whatever it's going through.
去经历它正在经历的一切。
And again, nothing in biology is free.
再说一遍，生物学中没有什么是免费的。
That's kind of one of the basic energetic laws of life.
这是生命的基本能量法则之一。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Everything costs energy.
一切都需要消耗能量。
And in development, you see when babies are born, they're a little hypometabolic.
在发育过程中，你会看到当婴儿出生时，他们的代谢有点低下。
They don't burn as much energy as an adult per kilogram or pounds of body weight.
他们每公斤或磅体重燃烧的能量不如成人那么多。
But then within a year, you see this massive increase in energy expenditure, and then it kind of peaks around five years of age, when kids are developing so quickly.
但一年之内，你会看到能量消耗大幅增加，然后在五岁左右达到峰值，此时孩子们发育得很快。
My son is six years old, and he's learning so much, changing all the time.
我的儿子六岁了，他正在学习很多东西，一直在改变。
So energy expenditure peaks around this time, and then by 10, 15 years old, it's back down, and then by 21-ish, it's adult.
因此，能量消耗在这个时候达到峰值，然后到 10 岁、15 岁时，能量消耗会回落，然后到 21 岁左右，就进入成年期。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And then it's a flat line for the rest of adulthood.
然后在成年期的其余时间里，这是一条平坦的线。
Then around 70 years old, you start to see this decline.
然后到了 70 岁左右，你开始看到这种衰退。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah, it's a myth that metabolism slows as we age.
是的，随着年龄的增长，新陈代谢会减慢，这是一个神话。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Uh-
呃-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I mean, it's true that if we don't keep our muscles and movement, et cetera, breathing-
我的意思是，确实，如果我们不保持我们的肌肉和运动等等，呼吸——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yes
是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
exercise, a lot of it is just breathing.
运动，很多只是呼吸。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As a friend-
作为朋友——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Bringing oxygen to your mitochondria
为线粒体带来氧气
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
Well, as a friend who's in incredible shape, once told me, I said, "What's your workout regimen?" He's in his 60s.
嗯，作为一个身材惊人的朋友，有一次告诉我，我说，“你的锻炼方案是什么？”他已经 60 多岁了。
He's just in fantastic shape.
他的状态非常棒。
He says, "I make sure I'm doing something every single day where I'm breathing hard for one hour."
他说：“我确保每天都做一些让我呼吸困难一小时的事情。”
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I said, "What do you do if you're trapped on a plane?" He's like, "I breathe hard for an hour." Former SEAL team guy, so they're a little extreme.
我说：“如果你被困在飞机上怎么办？”他说，“我呼吸困难一个小时了。”前海豹突击队员，所以他们有点极端。
But he makes a good point.
但他提出了一个很好的观点。
But the idea is that we understand from this paper published in "Science" a few years ago that metabolism, basal metabolism, doesn't change much as we age.
但我们的想法是，我们从几年前发表在《科学》上的这篇论文中了解到，新陈代谢，基础代谢，不会随着我们年龄的增长而发生太大变化。
We thought, "Oh, my metabolism slows." It's not true.
我们想，“哦，我的新陈代谢减慢了。”这不是真的。
Once you hit adulthood, once you hit your 20s, your metabolism is not changing much at all-
一旦你进入成年期，一旦你进入20多岁，你的新陈代谢就不会发生太大变化——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I think, as you pointed out, until one's 80s.
我想，正如你所指出的，直到80多岁。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It depends at what level you look at metabolism.
这取决于你观察新陈代谢的水平。
If you look at the cellular level, they're-
如果你观察细胞水平，它们是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I'm referring to the basal caloric need.
我指的是基础热量需求。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
How much energy you should consume to-
您应该消耗多少能量来-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Minus basal metabolic rate.
减去基础代谢率。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like minus the running, the lifting, et cetera-
比如减去跑步、举重等等——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that you do.
你做的。
Now, of course, lifting can add muscle, which then raises your basal metabolic rate.
当然，举重可以增加肌肉，从而提高基础代谢率。
But just this idea that, oh, my metabolism is slowing as I age, turns out to be completely false.
但事实证明，哦，随着年龄的增长，我的新陈代谢正在减慢，这种想法是完全错误的。
People have used that as an opportunity to write off their overeating.
人们以此为契机来抵消暴饮暴食的影响。
They're overconsuming energy-
他们过度消耗能量——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in most cases.
在大多数情况下。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yep.
是的。
We've developed a model called the energy conservation model, the brain-body energy conservation model of aging, the BEC model.
我们开发了一个模型，称为能量守恒模型，衰老的脑体能量守恒模型，BEC模型。
And so we could dive into this, but I think there's significant changes that happen in some cells.
所以我们可以深入研究这个问题，但我认为某些细胞中发生了重大变化。
As cells age, they start to actually burn energy faster.
随着细胞老化，它们实际上开始更快地燃烧能量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
When cells become senescent, they burn energy faster, and then they're sending signals, "I'm struggling," energetically speaking.
当细胞衰老时，它们会更快地燃烧能量，然后它们会发出信号，“我正在挣扎”，从能量上来说。
And that's what I think inflammaging is.
我认为这就是炎症。
You have some cells, not all cells, some cells in the body, they're kind of over the edge, they're becoming senescent, and then they send signals, and those signals are the same signal that we release during sickness behavior.
你有一些细胞，不是所有的细胞，身体里的一些细胞，它们有点超出了边缘，它们正在衰老，然后它们发送信号，这些信号与我们在疾病行为期间释放的信号相同。
If your immune system-
如果您的免疫系统-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
is really struggling energetically-
真是奋力拼搏——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
because it's trying to fight off a virus-
因为它正在试图抵抗病毒-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
it's going to send those same cytokines.
它会发送相同的细胞因子。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And when those cytokines reach the brain, the brain says, "Oh- Oh, shit.
当这些细胞因子到达大脑时，大脑会说：“哦-哦，该死。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
We're going to go bankrupt.
我们要破产了。
The energy budget is threatened here, so let's save energy.
能源预算在这里受到威胁，所以让我们节约能源。
And then you become apathetic, you become cold, you shrink your muscles, and those are all good energy saving-
然后你变得冷漠，你变得寒冷，你收缩你的肌肉，这些都是很好的节能——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
energy conservation strategies to a viral infection, right?
针对病毒感染的节能策略，对吗？
The same thing seems to happen slowly as you age.
随着年龄的增长，同样的事情似乎会慢慢发生。
If you have those cells that are sending those signals.
如果你有那些正在发送这些信号的细胞。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I see.
我明白了。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
But if you exercise-
但如果你锻炼——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
and if you don't eat too much-
如果你不吃太多的话-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
and once in a while you feel hungry, maybe intermittent fasting or like you actually now can get rid of those signals of energetic stress, and you can make the organism more efficient.
偶尔你会感到饥饿，也许间歇性禁食或者像你现在这样可以摆脱那些能量压力的信号，并且可以使有机体更有效率。
I think a significant benefit to exercise is improving efficiency.
我认为锻炼的一个显着好处是提高效率。
And then you can fight off inflammation.
然后你就可以对抗炎症。
Really what this is is you're bringing the organism's energy resistance, the cells that are struggling, you're kind of normalizing them, and then you don't feel like you're running out of energy.
实际上，这就是你带来了有机体的能量抵抗力，那些正在挣扎的细胞，你让它们正常化，然后你就不会觉得你的能量耗尽了。
So I think it's a perception problem.
所以我认为这是一个认知问题。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I'm now going to imagine that one of the reasons why we have less energy, in quotes-
所以我现在想象一下我们能量较少的原因之一，用引号引起来——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
We feel less energy, yeah
我们感觉精力越来越少，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
we feel less energy, thank you, as we age is because of inflammation in the body calling more energy to be allocated to those cells that are in the inflamed area, and they're consuming more energy.
我们感觉能量减少，谢谢，随着年龄的增长，这是因为体内的炎症需要更多的能量分配给发炎区域的细胞，而它们消耗了更多的能量。
So by reducing inflammation, you have more energy to allocate to other things.
因此，通过减少炎症，您就有更多的精力分配给其他事情。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Correct.
正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Got it.
明白了。
And so this is very different than how we were talking about at the beginning when I said, "My advisor came up to me, 'Why do we have less energy?'" I just imagined it was rundown of mitochondria.
因此，这与我们一开始谈论的方式非常不同，当时我说，“我的顾问走到我面前，‘为什么我们的能量更少？’”我只是想象这是线粒体的衰竭。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So this is what creates a kind of dynamic tension, and that's very practical for me and for everybody.
这就是创造一种动态张力的原因，这对我和每个人来说都非常实用。
For instance, I could run more to increase the number of mitochondria in my body.
例如，我可以多跑步来增加体内线粒体的数量。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I can sleep a little bit more to offset the inflammation from the running.
我可以多睡一会儿，以抵消跑步引起的炎症。
But ultimately, I'm playing a game.
但最终，我是在玩游戏。
I have to budget.
我得做预算。
Am I going to exercise more to get more mitochondria so my brain and body have more energy?
我是否要进行更多锻炼以获得更多线粒体，以便我的大脑和身体拥有更多能量？
But I'm also going to create some inflammation when I exercise, and that's going to eat up a bunch of energy, too.
但我运动时也会产生一些炎症，这也会消耗大量能量。
So it's just like time or money or anything else.
所以这就像时间、金钱或其他任何东西。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You can't do everything.
你不能做所有事情。
So my mindset has always been, and I think I'm going to stick with this, frankly, lift weights three days a week, do cardio three days a week, rest completely one day a week.
所以我的心态一直是，坦白说，我想我会坚持这一点，每周举重三天，每周三天做有氧运动，每周一天完全休息。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Amazing.
太棒了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do the other things like sauna and cold as you see appropriate, but make darn sure you're getting six to eight hours of sleep each night.
做一些你认为合适的其他事情，比如桑拿和冷敷，但要确保你每晚有六到八个小时的睡眠。
I've been pretty religious about that for-
我一直对此非常虔诚-
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
a long time.
很长一段时间。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And try to not burn energy on drama or mind-numbing things, and certainly don't use any substances that use up a lot of energy-
尽量不要在戏剧或令人头脑麻木的事情上消耗能量，当然也不要使用任何消耗大量能量的物质——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
excessively.
过度。
I do drink a lot of caffeine, but prescription stimulants that I know people rely on a lot, like I'll just call it out, Modafinil, I've taken it once when sleep deprived.
我确实喝了很多咖啡因，但我知道人们非常依赖处方兴奋剂，就像我直接说的，莫达非尼，我在睡眠不足时服用过一次。
You feel as if you slept eight hours, but you're borrowing that energy from someplace.
你感觉好像睡了八个小时，但你是从某个地方借来的能量。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it's not just the crash that happens later, it's the long-term effects of this.
这不仅仅是后来发生的崩溃，还有由此产生的长期影响。
And I think this is why people who use amphetamines and cocaine and things like that, stimulants, we often find that, sure, they die of heart failure.
我认为这就是为什么使用安非他明、可卡因和类似兴奋剂的人，我们经常发现他们死于心力衰竭。
That's very common, actually, in people who used cocaine earlier.
事实上，这在早期使用可卡因的人中很常见。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Burning out earlier.
烧得更早。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We won't talk about this, but let's just be direct about it.
我们不会谈论这个，但我们直接说吧。
They're borrowing energy from the future, is what you're doing.
他们正在从未来借用能量，这就是你正在做的事情。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so I think I'm a big fan of people exercising more, eating better, et cetera, but at some point you're increasing inflammation that way as well.
所以我认为我非常喜欢人们多锻炼、吃得更好等等，但在某些时候，这种方式也会加剧炎症。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Inflammation, as a reframe that to me completely changed my perspective on what inflammation is, inflammation is an energetic signal.
炎症，对我来说完全改变了我对炎症的看法，炎症是一种能量信号。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
If there are cytokines in your blood, it means somewhere in your body, and that's not true of all cytokines, but the major cytokines that we think about, like IL-6, interleukin-6, it's secreted by muscles, not during the exercise.
如果你的血液中有细胞因子，那就意味着你身体的某个地方，并不是所有的细胞因子都是如此，但是我们想到的主要细胞因子，比如IL-6、白细胞介素6，它是由肌肉分泌的，而不是在运动过程中分泌的。
Like you're doing your run, right?
就像你在跑步一样，对吧？
Say you run intensely for an hour or two hours.
假设你剧烈跑步一两个小时。
IL-6 doesn't increase.
IL-6 不增加。
It's when you stop exercising, boom, you get this beautiful spike of IL-6.
当你停止锻炼时，你就会得到这种美丽的 IL-6 峰值。
And then you ask, "Well, what is that?" So IL-6 is a cytokine, right?
然后你问：“嗯，那是什么？”那么 IL-6 是一种细胞因子，对吗？
It's a cellular signaling system.
这是一个细胞信号系统。
And then IL-6 goes to your fat, and then it says, "We need energy." Like lipolysis.
然后 IL-6 进入你的脂肪，然后它说：“我们需要能量。”就像脂肪分解一样。
Chop out those lipids that's stored in your fat, release that in the blood because the liver needs it to make glucose.
去除脂肪中储存的脂质，将其释放到血液中，因为肝脏需要它来产生葡萄糖。
And then the IL-6 goes to the liver as well, and then tells the liver, "Make glucose," because the muscle is depleted, right?
然后 IL-6 也进入肝脏，然后告诉肝脏“制造葡萄糖”，因为肌肉已经耗尽，对吗？
And the IL-6 burst after exercise is particularly strong if your glycogen depleted.
如果您的糖原耗尽，运动后 IL-6 的爆发会特别强烈。
Right?
正确的？
If the muscle is out of its internal-
如果肌肉脱离其内部-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Like after resistance training or sprinting or high intensity training.
就像阻力训练或短跑或高强度训练后一样。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
High intensity.
高强度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yes.
是的。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
So then the IL-6 then is a signal, right?
那么 IL-6 就是一个信号，对吗？
To mobilize energy.
调动能量。
It's the muscle's way of telling the rest of the body, "I'm running low on energy." Right?
这是肌肉告诉身体其他部位“我能量不足”的方式。正确的？
"Please help." And then it recruits the fat, it recruits the liver, and then it sends signal to the brain.
“请帮忙。”然后它招募脂肪，招募肝脏，然后向大脑发送信号。
The brain has IL-6 receptors as well, and it says, "Feel like crap.
大脑也有 IL-6 受体，它会说：“感觉很糟糕。
You need to recover.
你需要恢复。
Lose your vitality, your vigor-
失去你的活力，你的活力——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yep
是的
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
at least for a little bit-
至少有一点点-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yep
是的
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
and rest."
休息吧。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And like Arnold said, you become stronger, you make more mitochondria, and you become fitter, not during the exercise.
就像阿诺德所说，你会变得更强壮，你会产生更多的线粒体，你会变得更健康，而不是在锻炼过程中。
It's during the rest period.
正是在休息期间。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Definitely.
绝对是。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
So getting sleep six to eight hours, definitely.
所以肯定要睡六到八个小时。
And about stimulants like caffeine, and other stimulants, what they do is they prevent you from feeling energetic stress.
至于咖啡因等兴奋剂和其他兴奋剂，它们的作用是防止您感到精力充沛的压力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
So if energy is not flowing properly in your body and you should be sleeping to kind of decrease that energy resistance, then those stimulants kind of make you oblivious to those signals.
因此，如果能量在你的体内流动不正常，而你应该通过睡眠来降低能量阻力，那么这些兴奋剂会让你忽视这些信号。
And now there are clinical trials, and which I think are potentially dangerous, that are happening where those drugs are being developed, antibody-based drugs, to prevent the brain from feeling signals of energetic stress in the body.
现在正在进行临床试验，我认为这些试验具有潜在的危险，正在开发这些药物，基于抗体的药物，以防止大脑感受到体内能量压力的信号。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That sounds like a terrible idea.
这听起来是个糟糕的主意。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Well, if you think about it simplistically, and you think the body is a molecular machine, you think here's what's happening when people are sick, they have cancer.
好吧，如果你简单地思考一下，你认为身体是一台分子机器，你会认为这就是人们生病、患癌症时发生的情况。
GDF15, just growth differentiation factor 15, which is a protein.
GDF15，就是生长分化因子15，它是一种蛋白质。
It's a cytokine.
这是一种细胞因子。
It's secreted by cells when energy can't flow properly in mitochondria.
当能量无法在线粒体中正常流动时，它会由细胞分泌。
So if the cell is burning energy faster than it can sustain-
因此，如果细胞燃烧能量的速度快于其维持的速度
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
it will start to secrete GDF15.
它会开始分泌GDF15。
So people with cancer who end up developing cachexia, where their muscles melt away, they tend to have very high GDF15.
因此，患有癌症的人最终会出现恶病质，即肌肉消失，他们的 GDF15 往往非常高。
And then GDF15 can go to the brain, and as far as we know, or as far as the community believes, the only place where there's a receptor for GDF15 is in the brain.
然后 GDF15 可以进入大脑，据我们所知，或者据社区认为，唯一有 GDF15 受体的地方是大脑。
But the brain doesn't make GDF15.
但大脑不会产生 GDF15。
GDF15 is made by every other organ in the body, including tumors.
GDF15 由体内所有其他器官产生，包括肿瘤。
So what happens is that people with very high GDF15 feel terrible.
因此，GDF15 非常高的人会感觉很糟糕。
And if you actually inject GDF15 into an animal to ask what does it do?
如果你真的将 GDF15 注射到动物体内，请问它会起什么作用？
What does GDF15 mean if you have a lot of it in your blood?
如果您的血液中含有大量 GDF15，那么它意味着什么？
Well, animals actually puke, and it caused an aversive reaction.
嗯，动物实际上会呕吐，并且会引起厌恶反应。
Visceral malaise is the technical term.
内脏不适是一个专业术语。
So you feel like shit.
所以你感觉很糟糕。
GDF15, which is produced by cells struggling energetically anywhere in the body, signal to the brain and makes you feel like shit.
GDF15 是由体内任何地方的细胞产生的，它会向大脑发出信号，让你感觉很糟糕。
We know now also GDF15 is the trigger for morning sickness in pregnancy.
我们现在还知道 GDF15 是妊娠期孕吐的触发因素。
So the reason women, especially hyperemesis gravidarum, HG, which is terrible.
所以女性特别是妊娠剧吐、HG的原因，这是很可怕的。
Women who have this, many of them want to terminate their pregnancy.
患有这种疾病的女性中，很多人都想终止妊娠。
It's so horrible.
太可怕了。
If GDF15 rises 10,000-fold, there are not many hormones that can increase that much.
如果GDF15上升10,000倍，没有多少激素可以增加这么多。
During pregnancy, the placenta sends out GDF15 maybe to tell the mother, "Chill out, reallocate your energy.
在怀孕期间，胎盘会发出 GDF15，可能是为了告诉母亲：“冷静下来，重新分配你的能量。
You're growing something that is costing a lot of energy." So we know GDF15 does this.
你正在种植一些需要消耗大量能源的东西。”所以我们知道 GDF15 就是这样做的。
So now what pharmaceutical companies have tried to do is they say, "Okay, let's block GDF15 signaling so people don't feel like shit." And so there's this one trial that was published in "The New England Journal" last year, and they show, as expected, if you block GDF15 with a monoclonal antibody, people don't feel as terrible, and they eat a little more, and they don't lose as much weight.
所以现在制药公司试图做的就是说，“好吧，让我们阻断 GDF15 信号，这样人们就不会感觉糟糕了。”去年《新英格兰杂志》上发表了一项试验，正如预期的那样，如果用单克隆抗体阻断 GDF15，人们不会感觉那么糟糕，他们会吃得更多，体重也不会减轻那么多。
So it's basically if you're sick in a hospital, you have cancer, you're getting chemo, you don't want to eat.
所以基本上，如果你生病住院了，你得了癌症，你正在接受化疗，你不想吃东西。
And energetically, I suspect this is the right thing to do because you're saving 10, 15% of your energy budget, reallocating it to healing processes, your immune system, whatever the body needs to survive that challenge.
从精力上来说，我怀疑这是正确的做法，因为你可以节省 10%、15% 的能量预算，将其重新分配给治疗过程、你的免疫系统，以及身体在挑战中生存所需的任何东西。
Now you're kind of depriving the brain of that signal, so people actually don't lose as much weight.
现在你剥夺了大脑的信号，所以人们实际上并没有减轻那么多体重。
So then that trial said success.
那么这次试验就说明成功了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
If you look at the fine print and you look at the table where they report mortality, mortality was double in people who were receiving the drug.
如果您查看细则和报告死亡率的表格，就会发现接受该药物的患者的死亡率增加了一倍。
That trial was not powered to detect mortality as a primary outcome.
该试验并未将死亡率作为主要结果。
It was powered to detect changes in body weight.
它被驱动来检测体重的变化。
So that didn't end up being a main finding.
所以这最终并没有成为主要发现。
But if this is real, you're preventing people from losing weight, and they feel a little less nauseous, but there are twice as many people who died during that trial.
但如果这是真的，你就会阻止人们减肥，他们的恶心感也会减轻一些，但在那次试验中死亡的人数是原来的两倍。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because the body is smart, and it knows to not allocate energy to eating under normal conditions.
因为身体是聪明的，它知道正常情况下不把能量分配到吃饭上。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
To eating?
去吃饭？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, there's nothing normal about chemo conditions, but I think you understand what I mean.
嗯，化疗情况并不正常，但我想你明白我的意思。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That the body's intuition to not eat is smarter than any kind of molecular chicanery to overcome that signal-
身体不吃东西的直觉比任何分子欺骗都更聪明，可以克服这个信号——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Correct
正确
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and have you be hungry.
你饿了吗？
And you would think, oh, they're getting more nourishment.
你会想，哦，他们得到了更多的营养。
I thought you were going to tell me that more of them lived.
我以为你会告诉我还有更多的人活着。
You're saying to me twice as many died.
你对我说死亡人数是两倍。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Died.
死了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And recently, there's another large-scale trial for heart failure that looked at using this antibody to block...
最近，还有另一项针对心力衰竭的大规模试验，旨在使用这种抗体来阻断......
Because when the heart struggles, dilated cardiomyopathy or congestive heart failure, energetically, it's really demanding for the heart to be pushing against high blood pressure or to be failing.
因为当心脏挣扎、扩张型心肌病或充血性心力衰竭时，心脏会非常需要精力来对抗高血压或衰竭。
So there's an energetic stress in the heart at that point.
所以此时心里有一种能量压力。
GDF15 goes through the roof.
GDF15 穿过屋顶。
So now people know in cardiology GDF15 is a really good marker of heart failure.
现在人们知道在心脏病学中 GDF15 是心力衰竭的一个很好的标志物。
And then the thinking, I think our way of thinking energetically about GDF15 is a little different than what the rest of the field thinks.
然后，我认为我们对 GDF15 的积极思考方式与该领域其他人的想法有些不同。
People see GDF15 as a marker of inflammation, and then maybe that's immune or...
人们将 GDF15 视为炎症标志物，然后这可能是免疫的或......
I think it's a marker of energetic stress.
我认为这是能量压力的标志。
The heart is calling out for help and trying to kind of calm down the rest of the system by signaling onto the brain.
心脏正在呼救，并试图通过向大脑发出信号来使系统的其余部分平静下来。
Turns out many more people developed heart failure and adverse events under the drug, so they stopped the trial.
事实证明，有更多的人在服用该药物后出现心力衰竭和不良事件，因此他们停止了试验。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Where you block GDF15.
你在哪里阻止 GDF15。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yes.
是的。
So if you block the-
所以如果你阻止-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is the danger of molecular thinking of everything in terms of receptors and ligands, like the things that plug in.
这是从受体和配体角度思考一切事物的分子思维的危险，比如插入的东西。
People might not know what ligands are, things that plug into receptors-
人们可能不知道什么是配体，什么是插入受体的东西——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
and activate them.
并激活它们。
I love modern biology and medicine-
我喜欢现代生物学和医学-
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Oh, there's a lot of beautiful things, yes
哦，有很多美丽的东西，是的
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but the systemic effects are impossible to predict.
但系统性影响是无法预测的。
I guess that's why you run these trials.
我想这就是你进行这些试验的原因。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I do have a question as it relates to this, which is a big theme of your work, which is about stress.
我确实有一个与此相关的问题，这是你工作的一个大主题，与压力有关。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, I'm sure people are wondering by now, tell us about the gray hair reversal.
好吧，我确信人们现在想知道，请告诉我们关于白发逆转的事情。
So let's start with that.
那么让我们从这个开始吧。
Let's just get that out of our systems.
让我们把它从我们的系统中删除吧。
I will say, despite some theories, not that anyone cares that much, I've never dyed the hair on my head.
我要说的是，尽管有一些理论，但没有人那么在乎，我从来没有染过头上的头发。
I do have some grays, but the number of them waxes and wanes with how much sleep I'm getting.
我确实有一些灰色的头发，但它们的数量随着我睡眠的多少而增减。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's kind of interesting, perhaps.
也许这很有趣。
But my beard's gray.
但我的胡子是灰色的。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'll tell you, I'm not sure that all gray can be reversed by just reducing stress.
我告诉你，我不确定仅仅通过减轻压力就能扭转所有的灰色。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Correct.
正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I don't dye either my hair or my beard, so I'm a natural experiment in this.
但我既不染头发也不染胡须，所以我是这方面的自然实验者。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What's the deal?
这是怎么回事？
Can people reverse the graying of their hair by reducing their stress?
人们可以通过减轻压力来扭转头发变白的趋势吗？
Can people accelerate the graying of their hair by stressing more?
人们会因为承受更大的压力而加速头发变白吗？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Likely both are true, yes.
可能两者都是真的，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And I think what we discovered is that Hair graying, at least temporarily, is reversible.
我认为我们发现头发变白，至少暂时变白，是可以逆转的。
And this was surprising because it goes against this notion that aging is a linear process that just happens over time no matter what you do.
这是令人惊讶的，因为它违背了这样的观念，即衰老是一个线性过程，无论你做什么，都会随着时间的推移而发生。
And here we show no, actually, a hallmark of aging, which is depigmentation, losing color in your beard and your hair, is something that happens to almost everyone, but at different stages of life and so on.
实际上，我们在这里没有展示衰老的标志，即色素脱失，胡须和头发失去颜色，几乎每个人都会发生这种情况，但在生命的不同阶段等等。
And then on the same person, and the reason we got into this was that this felt like the perfect experiment.
然后在同一个人身上，我们进行这个实验的原因是，这感觉像是一个完美的实验。
You have every hair on your body, is about 100,000 hairs on your head.
你身上有每一根头发，头上大约有10万根头发。
Every hair has the same genome.
每根头发都有相同的基因组。
They're all genetically identical twins, right?
他们都是基因相同的双胞胎，对吗？
And they're all exposed to the same exercise regime, the same food, the same stress levels.
他们都接受相同的锻炼方式、相同的食物和相同的压力水平。
But yet some hairs go gray when you're late 30s, and then some hairs go gray when you're in your 80s.
但有些头发在 30 多岁的时候就变白了，而有些头发在 80 多岁的时候就变白了。
What the hell's happening?
到底发生了什么？
I thought if we could figure this out, the basis for the heterogeneity, right, the hair-to-hair heterogeneity, maybe we can understand why different people age at different rates.
我想，如果我们能够弄清楚这一点，即头发与头发之间的异质性的基础，也许我们就能理解为什么不同的人会以不同的速度衰老。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Because it's very clear that there's no more than 10% of how long you live that's genetically driven.
因为很明显，基因决定的寿命不超过 10%。
The best studies put this at around 7%.
最好的研究表明这一比例约为 7%。
7% of longevity is genetically inherited, maybe, and then about 90% is not.
也许 7% 的长寿是遗传的，但大约 90% 则不是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is lifestyle factors.
是生活方式因素。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Lifestyle, food exposures, whatever is not genetic.
生活方式、食物接触等与遗传无关的因素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
People will take solace in those numbers.
人们将从这些数字中得到安慰。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I think those are really powerful numbers.
我认为这些数字非常强大。
And they surprise me because I'd learned through my training education that the majority of how long you live is your parents, and I think this is legacy.
它们让我感到惊讶，因为我通过培训教育了解到，你的寿命大部分取决于你的父母，我认为这是遗产。
It's like dogma.
这就像教条。
It's not science-based.
这没有科学依据。
It's dogma from the Human Genome Project era.
这是人类基因组计划时代的教条。
Through the '90s, we were hoping we would find the gene for cancer, the gene for heart failure, the gene for Alzheimer's, the gene for schizophrenia, and then the human genome was sequenced, 2001, and then there was 10, 20 years of GWAS, genome-wide association studies, trying to find people who have this disease and trying to find which gene do they have that other people don't have, right?
整个 90 年代，我们希望能够找到癌症基因、心力衰竭基因、阿尔茨海默病基因、精神分裂症基因，然后人类基因组在 2001 年进行了测序，然后进行了 10、20 年的 GWAS、全基因组关联研究，试图找到患有这种疾病的人，并试图找到他们拥有哪些其他人没有的基因，对吗？
Those large-scale studies.
那些大规模的研究。
And if the Human Genome Project and the search for causal genes for common chronic diseases had been an RCT, it would've failed its primary endpoint.
如果人类基因组计划和寻找常见慢性疾病的致病基因是一项随机对照试验，那么它就无法达到其主要终点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
I think if we're real about this, the hypothesis was wrong.
我认为如果我们认真对待这一点，那么这个假设就是错误的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
It was a useful hypothesis, like many hypotheses are.
就像许多假设一样，这是一个有用的假设。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
It led us to learn a bunch, and the human genome, the sequencing, that was such a driver of progress in biomedical science.
它引导我们了解了很多知识，人类基因组、测序，这是生物医学科学进步的驱动力。
But it's failed to solve the big mysteries about why we get sick, when we get sick.
但它未能解决我们为什么生病、何时生病的重大谜团。
No genes will tell you this.
没有基因会告诉你这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
I would say the Human Genome Project, like so many things, the brain connectome, proteomes, inflammatomes- ...
我想说的是人类基因组计划，就像很多事情一样，大脑连接组、蛋白质组、炎症组……
necessary but not sufficient.
必要但不充分。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Correct.
正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We want and need the information, but it's not sufficient to demonstrate anything except it's a hypothesis-generating experiment.
我们想要并且需要这些信息，但除了假设生成实验之外，它还不足以证明任何东西。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I know this because I sat on grant panels for a long time, and you look at these incredible studies, like, "We're going to measure the difference between this cancer cell and that cancer cell and this..." And it's great, but the information you get is necessary, but it's not conclusive of anything.
我知道这一点，因为我在资助小组工作了很长时间，你会看到这些令人难以置信的研究，比如，“我们将测量这种癌细胞和那种癌细胞之间的差异，以及这个……”这很棒，但你获得的信息是必要的，但它并不能得出任何结论。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But it is good work.
但这是一件好事。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
It's good.
很好。
Of course.
当然。
It's good.
很好。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
There's a lot of really high-quality science that's happening.
有很多真正高质量的科学成果正在发生。
But I think in general, academic science has kind of lost track with its core purpose.
但我认为总的来说，学术科学有点偏离了其核心目的。
And now we have an incentive system, and there's a lot of forces at play in administrative processes that don't serve the primary end goal, which is-
现在我们有一个激励制度，行政流程中有很多力量在发挥作用，但这些力量并不能服务于主要的最终目标，即——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, it's all getting revised now, so it's for better or worse, it's all getting revised.
好吧，现在一切都在修改，所以无论好坏，一切都在修改。
So I see your point.
所以我明白你的观点。
I'm warmed by the fact that even though my parents are still alive and are doing well, thank goodness, that only 7% of longevity is dictated by the genes.
令我感到温暖的是，尽管我的父母还活着并且过得很好，但谢天谢地，只有 7% 的寿命是由基因决定的。
So if you have parents that lived a long time, this also means upkeep is important.
因此，如果您的父母寿命很长，这也意味着保养很重要。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But what you do is key.
但你做什么才是关键。
So with respect to graying hair isn't the most important problem.
因此，头发变白并不是最重要的问题。
People can dye their hair-
人们可以染头发——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
if they want to.
如果他们愿意的话。
People can shave their head if they're losing hair.
如果人们脱发，可以剃光头。
There are a bunch of ways around this monumental problem of graying hair.
有很多方法可以解决头发变白这个重大问题。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I think what it illustrates is really interesting.
但我认为它所说明的内容非常有趣。
So-
所以——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
That there's plasticity.
就是有可塑性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
So could you explain the result?
那么你能解释一下结果吗？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
So when we started to think about this, we thought what if we found hairs that have-- The same hair has two colors, right?
所以当我们开始思考这个问题时，我们想如果我们发现头发有—— 同一根头发有两种颜色，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
So you have a piece of a segment of the hair that is dark and then a segment that is white.
所以你有一段黑色的头发，然后有一段白色的头发。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And then if you could find a hair that was dark, so the tip of your hair used to be inside the body.
然后如果你能找到一根深色的头发，那么你的头发尖端曾经在身体内部。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
It's a bit like tree rings.
它有点像树木的年轮。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
If you cut down a tree and you look at the tree rings, you can basically go back in time and say, "Ooh, 20 years ago there was a fire here."
如果你砍倒一棵树，然后观察树轮，你基本上可以回到过去并说：“哦，20 年前这里发生过一场火灾。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Right?
对吗？
And then 45 years ago, there was a drought, and the tree rings look different.
然后45年前，发生了一场干旱，树木的年轮看起来不一样了。
And so there is information encoded in the structure, right?
所以结构中编码了信息，对吧？
So we all walk around with kind of a molecular record, like a physical timeline of our biological history, because-
所以我们都带着某种分子记录四处走动，就像我们生物历史的物理时间线一样，因为——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Stressed, relaxed, good relationship, bad relationship.
压力大，放松，关系好，关系差。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And hair is grown about-
头发长得大约是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Writing a grant after the grant.
拨款后撰写拨款。
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
That was actually part of the data for that study.
这实际上是该研究数据的一部分。
I was one of the participants early on because we became interested in this.
我很早就是参与者之一，因为我们对此很感兴趣。
We found hair that were two colors.
我们发现头发有两种颜色。
The tip was dark, and then the root was white.
尖端是黑色的，然后根部是白色的。
And then we thought, "Oh, if we can figure out that hair transition, and then if you measure it and you know how quickly the hair grows, then you can say, 'Okay, two and a half months ago.'" Then you can look at the calendar and say, "About here, this hair went from being dark to being white.
然后我们想，“哦，如果我们能弄清楚头发的转变，然后如果你测量它并且知道头发生长的速度，那么你可以说，‘好吧，两个半月前。’”然后你可以看看日历并说，“关于这里，头发从黑色变成白色。
What happened in this person's life?"
这个人的生活中发生了什么？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
So that was the idea.
这就是我们的想法。
And then Back then, my partner went to the bathroom, and then she brought back, she had very long hair, and then you could see clearly the same hair, two different colors.
然后当时我的伴侣去洗手间，然后她带回来，她的头发很长，然后你可以清楚地看到相同的头发，两种不同的颜色。
It's like, shit, aging.
就像，妈的，变老了。
Hair graying is, there's plasticity here.
头发变白了，这里有可塑性。
And then we found hairs where the hair was white, and it went back to being dark.
然后我们发现头发是白色的，然后头发又变黑了。
And this was a little confusing.
这有点令人困惑。
And then we had one participant who brought a hair, a young Asian woman, and her hair was so beautiful.
然后我们有一位参与者带来了一根头发，一位年轻的亚洲女性，她的头发非常漂亮。
She had really dark hair, and then the root was dark, and then there was a segment, two centimeters, about almost an inch of white, and then the rest of the hair was dark again.
她的头发确实是黑的，然后发根就黑了，然后有一段，两厘米，差不多一英寸的白色，然后剩下的头发又黑了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What happened in that two centimeters?
那两厘米发生了什么？
Did she share?
她分享了吗？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
So that became the question.
所以这就成了问题。
So then we developed, we said, okay, we need to do this quantitatively.
然后我们开发了，我们说，好吧，我们需要定量地做到这一点。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
She didn't tell you what had happened?
她没有告诉你发生了什么事吗？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
No, no, no.
不，不，不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
We were collecting hairs in Ziploc bags.
我们正在用密封袋收集头发。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
So now people started to mail us Ziploc bags with hair.
所以现在人们开始给我们邮寄装有头发的密封袋。
And we got some hairs from friends, hairs from Canada, from different places in the US, across body regions in South Asian, African American, white.
我们从朋友那里得到了一些头发，来自加拿大、美国不同地方、南亚、非裔美国人、白人身体各个部位的头发。
So it was clearly real.
所以这显然是真实的。
And then we thought we need to develop an objective, semi-quantitative method to quantify stress.
然后我们认为我们需要开发一种客观的半定量方法来量化压力。
Because we quantify now, we bought a scanner, old style photo digitization system.
因为我们现在要量化，所以我们买了一台扫描仪，老式照片数字化系统。
So we bought one of those high-end scanners, and then we could iron out a single hair, tape it down, and then scan at super high resolution.
所以我们买了一台高端扫描仪，然后我们可以熨掉一根头发，用胶带粘住，然后以超高分辨率进行扫描。
So then we can get a digital readout of the hair, like tree rings.
这样我们就可以得到头发的数字读数，就像树木的年轮一样。
And then you could see, okay, the hair was dark, and there's actually information.
然后你可以看到，好吧，头发是黑色的，而且实际上有信息。
It looks like EEG almost, but we're looking at hair color.
它看起来几乎像脑电图，但我们正在看头发的颜色。
And then it lost color.
然后它就失去了颜色。
So then you can say, okay, this is the point.
那么你可以说，好吧，这就是重点。
And then we needed something similar for psychological states.
然后我们需要类似的心理状态。
What happened in this person's life, ideally you would get blood or saliva or something else, but we could go back in time with this.
这个人的生活中发生了什么，理想情况下你会得到血液或唾液或其他东西，但我们可以回到过去。
And then I sat down with this participant and said, "Okay, this is now, and this is a year ago.
然后我和这位参与者坐下来说：“好吧，这是现在，这是一年前。
And then you can look at your calendar.
然后你可以查看你的日历。
What was the most stressful part of the past year?" And then for her, it was very clear.
过去一年里压力最大的是什么？”然后对她来说，一切就非常清楚了。
And then what was the least stressful part of the last year?
那么去年压力最小的部分是什么？
And then people would rate this.
然后人们会对此进行评价。
The Y-axis is most stressful at the top, the least stressful, zero at the bottom.
Y 轴在顶部压力最大，压力最小，底部压力为零。
And then they put points and then connect the dots with the line.
然后他们放点，然后用线连接点。
So then you end up with a line graph of someone's recall of their stress levels anchored in some objective life events.
因此，您最终会得到一个线图，显示某人对某些客观生活事件中的压力水平的回忆。
So that was the methodology we used.
这就是我们使用的方法。
And for her, she had sent us the hair a few months ago, and then we were doing the interview, and her profile was so beautiful.
而对于她来说，她几个月前就把头发发给我们了，然后我们正在进行采访，她的侧脸非常漂亮。
And she said, "I submitted my thesis." She just graduated her PhD at Stanford, actually.
她说：“我提交了论文。”事实上，她刚刚从斯坦福大学毕业。
And then she had a chill summer, and everything was okay.
然后她度过了一个寒冷的夏天，一切都很好。
Then she had some issues with her boyfriend, and they broke up, and then she was in crisis.
后来她和男朋友出了点问题，分手了，然后她就陷入了危机。
What do I do with my life?
我的生活该怎么办？
Do I get this job or that job?
我会得到这份工作还是那份工作？
She had to go to Europe for some family issues.
由于一些家庭问题，她不得不去欧洲。
And then she ended up moving to New York City, getting a job, reconnecting with her boyfriend, and then life was great.
然后她最终搬到了纽约，找到了一份工作，与男友重新取得了联系，然后生活就变得美好了。
And her graph looked exactly like this.
她的图表看起来就像这样。
And that period lasted two months.
那段时间持续了两个月。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it mapped to the gray zone.
它映射到灰色区域。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
It mapped surprisingly perfectly with the graying.
它与灰色的映射出人意料地完美。
Where the hair lost color.
头发失去颜色的地方。
So it was the stress peaked for two months and then came back down.
所以压力在两个月内达到了顶峰，然后又下降了。
She said, "These were the most stressful two months of my life."
她说：“这是我一生中压力最大的两个月。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Super interesting.
超级有趣。
And the paper's got a lot of press as it should be.
这份报纸理所当然地受到了很多媒体的关注。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
I've received about 300 emails since that paper was published.
自那篇论文发表以来，我收到了大约 300 封电子邮件。
People from sending me pictures from all over the world saying, "I found this two-colored hair.
人们从世界各地给我发照片说：“我发现了这两种颜色的头发。
I thought I was crazy.
我以为我疯了。
Googled this and found your paper."
谷歌搜索了一下，找到了你的论文。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When I was growing up, my dad told me that he had a cousin who worried so much that he went to bed one night and woke up, and all his hair was on the pillow.
当我长大的时候，我爸爸告诉我，他有一个表弟，他非常担心，有一天晚上他上床睡觉醒来，头发都在枕头上。
And I didn't know until I was an adult that that story was designed to get me to stress less and that it wasn't completely true.
直到我成年后我才知道这个故事是为了让我减轻压力而设计的，但它并不完全正确。
But that's hair loss, not graying.
但这是脱发，不是白发。
But is there any graying of hair, beard hair, or head hair, that is just simply related to age?
但是头发、胡须或头发的变白是否仅仅与年龄有关呢？
Or can we say that any graying of hair that's age-associated is likely to be associated with the increased inflammation that comes with aging-
或者我们可以说，任何与年龄相关的头发变白都可能与衰老带来的炎症增加有关——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
AKA stress, a different kind of stress-
又名压力，一种不同的压力——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
not psychological stress.
不是心理压力。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Maybe it depends how we define stress.
也许这取决于我们如何定义压力。
We define stress as anything that costs energy.
我们将压力定义为任何消耗能量的事物。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, inflammation costs energy is-
嗯，炎症消耗能量是——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Inflammation costs energy.
炎症会消耗能量。
And making a cytokine costs energy.
制造细胞因子需要消耗能量。
And if you're a cell and you have a receptor for a cytokine and the cytokine docks, the ligand docks, that's going to cost energy.
如果你是一个细胞，并且有细胞因子的受体，并且细胞因子对接，配体对接，那么就会消耗能量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It occurred to me that based on what you've told us, that when we're young, we need a lot of energy, and we don't want kids to overeat, but they need energy, and their levels of inflammation are very low.
我突然想到，根据你告诉我们的情况，当我们年轻的时候，我们需要大量的能量，我们不希望孩子吃得过多，但他们需要能量，而且他们的炎症水平非常低。
Kind of a perfect situation for development.
这是一个完美的发展形势。
As we get older, we generally move a bit less or a lot less.
随着年龄的增长，我们的活动量通常会减少或大大减少。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Or a lot less, yes.
或者少很多，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But ideally, it's just a bit less.
但理想情况下，它只是少一点。
Or maybe we move more.
或者也许我们移动得更多。
And in general, people need to eat less.
一般来说，人们需要少吃。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Not more, as a rule.
通常不会更多。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay, but there are always exceptions to that rule.
好吧，但这条规则总有例外。
But there's a lot more inflammation, so we're actually much more energetically expensive because of inflammation-
但是炎症更多了，所以我们实际上因为炎症而消耗了更多的能量——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Right
右
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
as we age.
随着我们年龄的增长。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I'd be willing to bet that some of the graying of hair is related to the aging inflammation thing.
我敢打赌，头发变白的部分原因与衰老炎症有关。
My level of stress, who knows what it is, because it's been jagged line for so many years.
我的压力水平，谁知道它是什么，因为多年来它一直是锯齿状的。
I don't know what baseline is.
我不知道什么是底线。
I drink caffeine.
我喝咖啡因。
Like most people, we're masking a lot of the things that are going on.
像大多数人一样，我们掩盖了很多正在发生的事情。
But-
但是——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
I love the results showing that increased stress grays hairs.
我喜欢这个结果，它表明压力增加会使头发变白。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And reducing stress un-grays hairs.
并减轻压力，使头发不再花白。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
It's a correlation.
这是一种相关性。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's a correlation, but it's a really cool result.
这是一种相关性，但这是一个非常酷的结果。
I want to talk about restoration and recovery of energy.
我想谈谈能量的恢复和恢复。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Maybe with the hair graying-
也许随着头发变白——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
I think what connects the hair graying with everything else we've talked about ...
我认为头发变白与我们谈论的其他一切有什么联系......
is the analysis we did of knowing molecularly what happened when this one hair goes gray, and then it recovers its color.
是我们所做的分析，从分子角度了解当这根头发变白然后又恢复颜色时发生了什么。
What's happening energetically?
精力充沛地发生了什么？
So we took a single hair and chopped it into pieces and did proteomics.
所以我们取一根头发并将其切成碎片并进行蛋白质组学研究。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You have to because you're a molecular biologist, right?
你必须这样做，因为你是分子生物学家，对吧？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And mitochondria is our way to tap into the biology of energy.
线粒体是我们利用能量生物学的方式。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
So then we thought maybe there's something there.
所以我们想也许那里有什么东西。
And initially, I didn't think there was mitochondria in the hair.
最初，我并不认为头发中有线粒体。
It turns out, every hair that we walk around with is loaded with mitochondrial DNA.
事实证明，我们行走的每一根头发都含有线粒体 DNA。
And forensic, if you find a hair on a crime scene, you can figure out who was there.
法医方面，如果你在犯罪现场发现一根头发，你就能找出谁在那里。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
The DNA that gets sequenced is not the nuclear genome, it's a mitochondrial genome.
被测序的 DNA 不是核基因组，而是线粒体基因组。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Really?
真的吗？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And because hairs have a very high concentration of mitochondrial DNA.
因为毛发中含有非常高浓度的线粒体 DNA。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So you guys, you can't commit a crime and expect to get away with it, because if you leave one hair- ...
所以你们这些人，你们不能在犯罪后指望逃脱惩罚，因为如果你们留下一根头发——
Martin's lab is going to-
马丁的实验室将——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Oh, we don't do-
哦，我们不这样做-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
sequence it.
对其进行排序。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
We don't do forensics.
我们不做法医鉴定。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sure you don't.
当然你不知道。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
The signature, the molecular signature that was the most robust, comparing the white hair to the dark hair in the same person-
签名，最稳健的分子签名，比较同一个人的白发和黑发——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
or comparing white to dark in different people, was mitochondrial proteins.
或者比较不同人的白色和深色，是线粒体蛋白。
And I did not expect that, and we repeated those experiments in two different proteomics core.
我没想到这一点，我们在两个不同的蛋白质组学核心中重复了这些实验。
And the proteomics core hated that experiment because hair is notoriously full of keratin, those super high abundance proteins, and then they mask every other signal.
蛋白质组学核心讨厌这个实验，因为众所周知，头发中充满了角蛋白，那些超高丰度的蛋白质，然后它们掩盖了所有其他信号。
But we were able to get good resolution data for other non-keratin, non-hair proteins.
但我们能够获得其他非角蛋白、非毛发蛋白的良好分辨率数据。
And three mitochondrial proteins were consistently upregulated.
三种线粒体蛋白持续上调。
There was more of the mitochondrial energy transformation machinery in the gray hair compared to the dark hair.
与黑发相比，白发中有更多的线粒体能量转化机制。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Love the direction of that result.
喜欢这个结果的方向。
I don't love that stress increases graying, but I love the direction of that result because it's yet another brick on the wall of what you're telling us, that stress is an energy requirement.
我不喜欢压力会导致头发变白，但我喜欢这个结果的方向，因为它是你告诉我们的墙上的另一块砖，压力是一种能量需求。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
It causes-
它会导致——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Inflammation associated with aging is an energy requirement.
与衰老相关的炎症是一种能量需求。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Correct.
正确。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Being sick creates different energy requirements, and we need to obey these different energy requirements.
生病会产生不同的能量需求，我们需要遵守这些不同的能量需求。
Fascinating.
迷人。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So in terms of removing or reducing metabolic demand in order to keep our system going-
因此，就消除或减少代谢需求以保持我们的系统运转而言——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
first, of course, is sleep.
首先当然是睡眠。
Right?
正确的？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You were telling me earlier before we started recording that during sleep, how much does our metabolic needs become reduced?
在我们开始记录之前，您早些时候告诉我，在睡眠期间，我们的新陈代谢需求会减少多少？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Decrease?
减少？
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Most people know when you sleep, your heart rate goes down, and your body temperature goes down, and that allows us to stay alive with 10, 15% lower energy expenditure.
大多数人都知道，当您睡觉时，您的心率会下降，体温也会下降，这使我们能够以减少 10%、15% 的能量消耗来维持生命。
And they're different between different people, but 10, 15% is an average of how much energy you're saving by sleeping.
不同的人的能量有所不同，但 10%、15% 是通过睡眠节省的平均能量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And there's a theory of why does every animal need to sleep, and if you sleep deprive a mouse or a rat or an animal, they die eventually.
有一个理论解释了为什么每只动物都需要睡眠，如果你剥夺一只老鼠或一只动物的睡眠，它们最终就会死亡。
And we know from severe cases of mania and bipolar disease, people can die from going without sleep for multiple days.
我们从躁狂症和双相情感障碍的严重病例中知道，人们可能会因多日不睡觉而死亡。
And that might be one hypothesis too, because sleep saves or conserves energy, and if you don't go into that state of torpor, almost like mini hibernation, then somehow the organism can't sustain that.
这也可能是一个假设，因为睡眠可以节省或保存能量，如果你不进入那种麻木状态，几乎就像迷你冬眠，那么有机体就无法维持这种状态。
And we have some thoughts as to why this is.
对于为什么会这样，我们有一些想法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I was reading recently about this glymphatic clearance of waste in the brain-
我最近读到了关于大脑中废物的类淋巴清除的文章——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Another theory
另一种理论
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that occurs during sleep.
睡眠期间发生的情况。
And there was an interesting figure in this paper showing that every mammal puts its head down during sleep, and there's some cute pictures of pandas sleeping on their side.
而且这篇论文里有一个有趣的图，显示所有哺乳动物睡觉时都是低着头的，还有一些熊猫侧睡的可爱图片。
The giraffe apparently puts the top of its head down in order to presumably increase glymphatic clearance.
长颈鹿显然将头顶低下，可能是为了增加类淋巴间隙。
But I could also imagine that resting one's head reduces energetic demands.
但我也可以想象，休息会减少精力需求。
Some people can sleep standing up against a pillar or something.
有些人可以靠着柱子或其他东西站着睡觉。
I've done that, fallen asleep like that a bit.
我这样做了，就这样睡着了。
But in general, sleep is a time when we want to rest our body and our mind.
但总的来说，睡眠是我们想要让身体和心灵得到休息的时间。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And with the exception of rapid eye movement sleep, when the brain is very active, sort of a reboot of sorts, periodic reboot.
除了快速眼动睡眠之外，当大脑非常活跃时，就会出现某种重启，周期性重启。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Sleep just seems like this beautiful way to allow the mitochondria to either restore or you can't outeat sleep deprivation-
睡眠似乎是一种美妙的方式，可以让线粒体恢复，否则你就无法战胜睡眠不足——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-mm
毫米-毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
either.
要么。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
No. You can't eat more to get more energy.
不，你不能吃得更多来获得更多的能量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
That's very clear.
这非常清楚。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
That's a very important statement.
这是一个非常重要的声明。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yes.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now, I'm long been curious about things that people can do in order to either reduce their sleep need, or I refer to it as increasing their vitality while waking.
现在，我长期以来一直对人们可以做些什么来减少他们的睡眠需求，或者我将其称为增加他们醒来时的活力感到好奇。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it is true, there are data showing that people who meditate for an hour or so per day, or two 20-minute sessions-
确实，有数据显示，每天冥想一个小时左右，或者两次每次 20 分钟的冥想的人——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
seems to be the most typically used protocol, can fairly dramatically reduce their sleep need, and really go from an eight-hour need to a six-hour need with a 40-minute investment of meditation.
似乎是最常用的方案，可以相当显着地减少他们的睡眠需求，并且通过 40 分钟的冥想投资，可以真正从八小时的需求减少到六小时的需求。
What are the data on how meditation reduces mitochondrial function and energy use?
关于冥想如何减少线粒体功能和能量消耗的数据有哪些？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
I want to start by saying we don't know what mitochondria do when we sleep.
首先我想说我们不知道线粒体在我们睡觉时会做什么。
Do mitochondria sleep?
线粒体睡觉吗？
You lose consciousness and the body goes into this hypometabolic restorative state, and yes, there's glymphatics and garbage clear out in the brain, which I suspect might have an energetic effect.
你失去知觉，身体进入代谢低下的恢复状态，是的，大脑中的类淋巴管和垃圾被清除，我怀疑这可能会产生能量效应。
If you have garbage in your brain, probably the brain becomes less efficient-
如果你的大脑中有垃圾，大脑的效率可能会降低-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
so it needs to burn more energy to do the same thing.
所以它需要燃烧更多的能量才能完成同样的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
So maybe the reason why the brain clears out stuff and why that's an important part of sleep is for an energetic purpose.
因此，也许大脑清理东西以及为什么这是睡眠的重要组成部分的原因是为了精力充沛的目的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Right?
对吗？
So we just finished an experiment where we had people come in the lab for 24 hours, sleep in the lab, and Evan Shosen, a student in my lab, is analyzing those data.
我们刚刚完成了一项实验，让人们 24 小时进入实验室，在实验室里睡觉，我实验室的学生 Evan Shosen 正在分析这些数据。
And I think for the first time we'll be able to know what do mitochondria do when you fall asleep?
我想我们将第一次知道当你入睡时线粒体会做什么？
And you go into this hypometabolic state and you're kind of conserving energy.
当你进入这种代谢低下的状态时，你就可以节省能量。
How is energy reallocated?
能源如何重新分配？
So we see sleep as a two-arm process.
因此，我们将睡眠视为一个双臂过程。
One, it slows some things down.
第一，它会减慢某些事情的速度。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
If the heart beats 10 times less per minute, that's a lot of energy.
如果心脏每分钟跳动次数减少 10 次，则能量消耗很大。
Every time the heart contracts right, systole, diastole both contraction and relaxation cost energy.
每当心脏右收缩、收缩、舒张时，收缩和舒张都会消耗能量。
And then if you do this 10 times less per minute, that is a bunch of energy that can be reallocated, redistributed.
如果你每分钟减少 10 次，那么这就是一堆可以重新分配的能量。
So, we suspect that there's three main buckets of energy expenses that the body needs to sustain at some point in time.
因此，我们怀疑身体在某个时间点需要维持三种主要的能量消耗。
One is vital.
其中之一至关重要。
You need to keep your heart beating.
你需要保持心跳。
That's your resting heart rate, the brain function, your kidney, you need to be detoxifying, clearing the blood, and all of your vital organs.
这是你的静息心率、大脑功能、你的肾脏、你需要排毒、清理血液以及你所有的重要器官。
That's vital cost.
这是至关重要的成本。
Second is stress cost.
其次是压力成本。
Right?
正确的？
If your sympathetic nervous system is activated because you're worrying about the future or worrying about the past or you're stressing yourself out, this costs energy.
如果你的交感神经系统因为担心未来或担心过去或给自己施加压力而被激活，这会消耗能量。
And then your blood pressure increases, that costs energy.
然后你的血压就会升高，这会消耗能量。
Heart rate increases, costs energy.
心率加快，消耗能量。
You're sweating a little bit, costs energy.
你出一点汗，会消耗能量。
Your hair rises .
你的头发竖了起来。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Anything that you're doing, it will cost energy and then steal that energy, we think, from a third bucket, which is what we call growth, maintenance, and repair, GMR.
我们认为，你所做的任何事情都会消耗能量，然后从第三个桶中窃取能量，这就是我们所说的增长、维护和修复，GMR。
And those GMR processes happen at the level of organs, right?
这些 GMR 过程发生在器官层面，对吧？
When you have an organ that gets bigger and stronger, for example, after weightlifting, it can happen at the level of a cell.
当你的器官变得更大更强时，例如举重后，它可能发生在细胞水平上。
If the cell needs to repair its membrane, needs to repair its DNA, this would be growth, maintenance, and repairing.
如果细胞需要修复它的膜，需要修复它的DNA，这就是生长、维持和修复。
If you're making more mitochondria, mitochondrial biogenesis after a workout, that would be growth, maintenance, and repair.
如果你在锻炼后制造更多的线粒体，线粒体生物发生，那就是生长、维护和修复。
And because there's a finite energy budget, there's an economy of energy.
由于能源预算有限，因此存在能源经济。
How much energy you have needs to be distributed between those vital costs, the stress costs, and the GMR, growth-
你有多少能量需要在这些重要成本、压力成本和 GMR、生长成本之间分配
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
maintenance, repair costs.
保养、维修费用。
So if you're stressing out all the time, we suspect this actually steals energy away from GMR.
因此，如果您一直处于压力之下，我们怀疑这实际上会窃取 GMR 的能量。
And then you're not healing, you're not growing, you're not learning maybe.
然后你就无法治愈，无法成长，或许也无法学习。
And what sleep might do is actually shut down all of those stress processes.
睡眠实际上可能会关闭所有这些压力过程。
When you sleep, heart rate variability increases, right?
当你睡觉时，心率变异性会增加，对吧？
Parasympathetic tone increases.
副交感神经张力增加。
Sympathetic nervous system goes very quiet.
交感神经系统变得非常安静。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And then all of the stress-related expenses then become quiet, then that piece of the energy budget can be allocated to growth, maintenance, and repair.
然后所有与压力相关的支出都会变得安静，然后这部分能源预算就可以分配给增长、维护和修复。
And when you meditate, and there's this beautiful study that shows expert meditators can go into a deep state where their energy expenditure goes down by 40%.
当你冥想时，这项精彩的研究表明，专业冥想者可以进入深度状态，他们的能量消耗会下降 40%。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Wow.
哇。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
So 10 to 15%, we said earlier, that's how much you can save energy by just sleeping.
我们之前说过，10% 到 15% 就是通过睡眠可以节省多少能量。
Meditating, it seems, in some trained people, can bring energy expenditure down by 40%.
对于一些受过训练的人来说，冥想似乎可以使能量消耗降低 40%。
This is more than sleep.
这不仅仅是睡眠。
So they're able to shut down, right, or quiet down, maybe vital processes.
所以他们能够关闭，对，或者安静下来，也许是重要的过程。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
We know the heart rate can go down to extremely low.
我们知道心率可以降至极低。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Probably stress processes.
可能是压力过程。
We know this from measurements and meditators.
我们从测量和冥想中知道这一点。
And then maybe that energy can be reallocated to growth, maintenance, and repair.
然后也许可以将这些能量重新分配给生长、维护和修复。
So if you do more of GMR-
所以如果你做更多的 GMR-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
in your waking life because you live more mindfully and you don't stress yourself out thinking about the future or the past or about self-related thoughts , then maybe you can do more GMR during meditation or during your daily life, and then you don't need as much sleep.
在你醒着的生活中，因为你生活得更加用心，你不会因为思考未来、过去或与自我相关的想法而给自己带来压力，那么也许你可以在冥想或日常生活中做更多的 GMR，然后你就不需要那么多的睡眠。
If the purpose of sleep is to reallocate energy towards growth, maintenance, and repair.
如果睡眠的目的是为了生长、维持和修复重新分配能量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's definitely been my experience.
这绝对是我的经历。
I've talked before on the podcast, I'm a big fan of yoga nidra.
我之前在播客上说过，我是瑜伽休息术的忠实粉丝。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Where I coined a variation on it, non-sleep deep rest.
我创造了一个变体，即非睡眠深度休息。
It essentially consists of lying down-
它本质上包括躺着-
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
intentionally staying awake and for 10 to 30 minutes, and you do a progressive bodily relaxation while keeping your mind awake.
刻意保持清醒 10 到 30 分钟，在保持头脑清醒的同时逐步放松身体。
The reason it's useful is twofold.
它有用的原因有两个。
One, you emerge from it with a ton of energy-
第一，你从它中出来时充满了能量-
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
mental and physical energy.
精神和身体能量。
Your vigor is restored-
你的活力又恢复了——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
even on less sleep.
即使睡眠较少。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
The other is that it doesn't impede your ability to sleep at night.
另一个是它不会妨碍您晚上的睡眠能力。
If anything, it facilitates it.
如果有的话，它会促进它。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Whereas naps can often create a sleep inertia.
而小睡往往会造成睡眠惰性。
You feel sleepy afterwards, then people drink caffeine, and then that can cause issues or just even make it harder to fall and stay asleep at night-
之后你会感到困倦，然后人们会喝咖啡因，然后这可能会导致问题，甚至会让你晚上更难入睡和入睡-
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
after naps.
午睡后。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Whereas non-sleep deep rest, yoga nidra, is very efficient this way.
而非睡眠深度休息（瑜伽休息术）则非常有效。
The other thing is, that I've been playing with lately, that I've found to be tremendously useful, I sort of joke about this.
另一件事是，我最近一直在玩它，我发现它非常有用，我对此开玩笑。
I was telling my girlfriend the other day, we'll just say for the hour or so before sleep to just listen to music, have the lights dim, just really relax.
前几天我告诉我的女朋友，我们会在睡觉前花一个小时左右的时间听音乐，把灯光调暗，真正放松一下。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Or maybe the 30 minutes before sleep, just really relax.
或者也许是睡前 30 分钟，真正放松一下。
And it's almost as if, you're awake, you're not asleep, but I noticed that it dramatically reduces my sleep need.
就好像你醒着，你没有睡着，但我注意到它极大地减少了我的睡眠需求。
I wake up from six hours feeling like I got eight.
我从六个小时中醒来，感觉自己已经工作了八个小时。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I monitor my sleep, and so it's a pretty robust thing.
我会监控我的睡眠，所以这是一件非常强大的事情。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I suspect it's the slowing of the heart rate-
我怀疑是心率变慢了
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
before sleep.
睡觉前。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I suspect that's what it is.
我怀疑就是这样。
Because it's not actual sleep-
因为这不是真正的睡眠-
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
So you think it helps you get into deeper state of sleeps faster or...?
所以你认为它可以帮助你更快地进入更深的睡眠状态还是......？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I think it's restorative in its own right.
我认为它本身就是恢复性的。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it probably helps sleep as well because it's anti-stress, and so-
它可能也有助于睡眠，因为它可以抗压力，所以-
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
it's hard to tease those apart.
很难将它们分开。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I think this idea of not just lowering the lights, dimming the lights, but also reducing the heart rate as you head into getting ready for sleep, brushing your teeth, getting ready for sleep, and pre-sleep activities being very relaxing-
但我认为这个想法不仅降低灯光，调暗灯光，而且在你准备睡觉、刷牙、准备睡觉和睡前活动时降低心率，都是非常放松的——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
we hear that for the de-stress component.
我们听说这是为了减压。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I suspect that the brain is already going into a sleep-like state.
但我怀疑大脑已经进入了类似睡眠的状态。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So I suspect that's accurate, and if you're by- ...
所以我怀疑这是准确的，如果你是...
creating that environment, and then it allows you to relax.
创造那个环境，然后它可以让你放松。
Right?
正确的？
What relaxing means, basically, is you decrease the energetic cost of sustaining your organism.
基本上，放松意味着减少维持机体的能量消耗。
Then lowering heart rate, lowering cortisol in your blood, norepinephrine-
然后降低心率，降低血液中的皮质醇，去甲肾上腺素-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah
是啊
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
catecholamines, and the things that cost a lot of energy.
儿茶酚胺，以及消耗大量能量的东西。
We've done experiments in cells in a dish.
我们在培养皿中的细胞中进行了实验。
You give cells glucocorticoids, like a cortisol mimetic, or norepinephrine.
你给细胞注射糖皮质激素，比如皮质醇模拟物或去甲肾上腺素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And then we wanted to know how much energy does it cost to mount a stress response.
然后我们想知道发起压力反应需要多少能量。
Those hormones are not damaging by themselves, but if you give them to cells, those cells go into a whole choreographed response, evolutionary, ingrained response that prepares them for the future.
这些激素本身不会造成损害，但如果你将它们给予细胞，这些细胞就会进入一个精心设计的反应，进化的、根深蒂固的反应，为未来做好准备。
Right?
正确的？
It's called allostasis.
这就是所谓的动态平衡。
And that costs a bunch of energy, and we found it was about 60%.
这会消耗大量能源，我们发现约为 60%。
So this doesn't happen in human beings, but if your energetic metabolic rate increased by 60%-
所以这不会发生在人类身上，但是如果你的能量代谢率增加了 60%-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
right, with glucocorticoids, you'd be in big trouble.
是的，如果使用糖皮质激素，你就会遇到大麻烦。
So it might not be as much in the whole body, but we know now that just a stress hormone on cells in a dish, human cells, is able to increase the energetic cost of life.
因此，它在整个身体中可能没有那么多，但我们现在知道，仅仅培养皿中的细胞（人类细胞）上的应激激素就能够增加生命的能量成本。
So it costs energy to worry about stuff.
所以担心事情会消耗精力。
So if you can decrease the level of those hormones and decrease the level of cytokines in your blood, inflammation, that's going to save energy.
因此，如果你能降低这些激素的水平，并降低血液中细胞因子和炎症的水平，那就可以节省能量。
And then, yes, maybe sleep is more restorative.
然后，是的，也许睡眠更有恢复力。
In the sleep study we did, there are people whose sleep energy expenditure drops significantly, like 20%.
在我们所做的睡眠研究中，有些人的睡眠能量消耗显着下降，比如 20%。
Other people, it doesn't drop almost at all.
其他人，几乎根本不下降。
In particular, people whose mitochondria don't work very well.
特别是线粒体功能不佳的人。
So we've been so fortunate to work with patients, and I'm not a physician, but I'm in the clinic half day a week, too, and I see patients that I've followed now for about six years who have genetic mitochondrial diseases.
因此，我们非常幸运能够与患者合作，我不是医生，但我每周也有半天时间在诊所，并且我看到了我已经跟踪了大约六年的患有遗传性线粒体疾病的患者。
So they're pretty rare, but they have a mutation or a deletion in the mitochondrial DNA.
所以它们非常罕见，但它们的线粒体 DNA 发生了突变或缺失。
Some of them is in the nucleus, nuclear genome, but it affects the mitochondrial energy transformation capacity.
其中一些是在细胞核、核基因组中，但它影响线粒体的能量转化能力。
Those people are always tired.
那些人总是很累。
They don't feel well.
他们感觉不舒服。
They avoid exercise at all costs because it just feels so terrible, because their mitochondria have increased resistance to energy flow.
他们不惜一切代价避免锻炼，因为感觉太糟糕了，因为他们的线粒体对能量流的阻力增加了。
So if you try to push more energy through, it's really uncomfortable.
所以如果你试图推动更多的能量通过，那真的很不舒服。
GDF15, through the roof.
GDF15，穿过屋顶。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
The best biomarker of mitochondrial disease is actually GDF15, which tells us something about what GDF15 means to the organism.
线粒体疾病的最佳生物标志物实际上是 GDF15，它告诉我们 GDF15 对生物体的意义。
When the mitochondria don't work properly, those cells that can't flow energy properly send out GDF15 as a signal.
当线粒体无法正常工作时，那些无法正常流动能量的细胞会发出 GDF15 作为信号。
And if you do a sleep study on those individuals, and you look at how well do they decrease their energy expenditure to go into this restorative state, the parasympathetic nervous system can't kick in.
如果你对这些人进行睡眠研究，看看他们如何减少能量消耗以进入这种恢复状态，副交感神经系统就无法发挥作用。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Hmm.
嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
So some of the biggest difference we see between mitochondrial disease and people who have normal, healthy spectrum of mitochondria is this inability to slow down and to go into this restorative state at night.
因此，我们看到线粒体疾病和线粒体谱正常、健康的人之间的一些最大区别是无法在夜间放慢速度并进入这种恢复状态。
So that positions mitochondria in the context of restoration and our ability to heal, and lifespan in those people is decreased by about three decades.
因此，这将线粒体置于恢复和我们治愈能力的背景下，而这些人的寿命会减少大约三十年。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As long as we're talking about sleep and meditation and lowering one's heart rate before sleep, by whatever means-
只要我们谈论睡眠和冥想以及睡前降低心率，无论通过什么方式——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
we should talk about nutrition and exercise and supplements-
我们应该谈谈营养、运动和补充剂——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
dare I say, and prescription drugs.
我敢说，还有处方药。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Including the GLPs.
包括 GLP。
So I realize you're not a nutrition expert-
所以我意识到你不是营养专家-
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but you think about energy.
但你会想到能源。
You can't out-eat a bad night's sleep, but we all need nutrition.
你无法通过吃一晚不好的睡眠来弥补，但我们都需要营养。
When you personally step back from all the noise around nutrition, what are the key takeaways for you in terms of how you think about optimizing your mitochondrial-
当您个人从有关营养的所有噪音中退一步时，就您如何考虑优化线粒体而言，您的主要收获是什么？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
health and energy flow?
健康和能量流？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I think we've gotten things wrong for two main reasons.
我认为我们犯错有两个主要原因。
One is we don't think about the individual.
一是我们不考虑个人。
We try to find one size fit all solutions.
我们试图找到一种适合所有解决方案。
Carnivore is good, or keto is good, or high carb is good, or meat is bad, or right?
肉食动物好，或者酮好，或者高碳水化合物好，或者肉不好，或者对吗？
There are all of these variations which people feel really strongly about.
人们对所有这些变化都有强烈的感受。
And this brings us back to the value of the human experience.
这让我们回到了人类体验的价值。
You know for yourself, if you change your diet and it changes your life, you have vitality you haven't had in 20 years, and your symptoms, inflammation, right, is gone, and you have clarity of mind you've never had.
你自己知道，如果你改变你的饮食，它会改变你的生活，你就会拥有 20 年来从未有过的活力，你的症状，炎症，对的，就会消失，你的头脑会变得前所未有的清晰。
I've met several people now who've had this kind of life-changing energetic shift happen when they go on a ketogenic diet-
我现在遇到了几个人，当他们进行生酮饮食时，他们就发生了这种改变生活的能量转变——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
and when they install intermittent fasting.
当他们实行间歇性禁食时。
Life-changing shit.
改变生活的狗屎。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
So they know that this is real, right?
所以他们知道这是真的，对吗？
And then you do an RCT and you say, "Okay, let's test the ketogenic-"
然后你做一个随机对照试验，你说，“好吧，让我们测试一下生酮——”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Randomized control trial.
随机对照试验。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Thank you.
谢谢。
You do a randomized clinical trial, and then what you do there is you feed everyone the same thing, ketogenic diet or standard Mediterranean diet or whatever diet as usual, and then people are on this diet for X amount of time, 12 weeks.
你做了一个随机临床试验，然后你所做的就是给每个人喂同样的东西，生酮饮食或标准地中海饮食或任何平常的饮食，然后人们采用这种饮食 X 时间，即 12 周。
And then at the end, you compare whatever outcome you determined you decided was the right outcome.
最后，您可以比较您认为正确的结果。
And then you have, let's say, 50 people here, 50 people here, and then you ask, "Did the ketogenic diet improve mental health?" Or "Did it reduce inflammation?" Or did it do that?
然后你，比方说，这里有 50 个人，这里有 50 个人，然后你会问：“生酮饮食是否改善了心理健康？”或者“它能减轻炎症吗？”或者它这样做了？
And then often in RCTs for dietary interventions or drugs, what you find is not really.
然后，在饮食干预或药物的随机对照试验中，你常常发现事实并非如此。
Maybe a little bit.
也许有一点。
Right?
正确的？
And then if the study was adequately powered and there's an 8% shift in your primary outcome, then it becomes p less than .05.
然后，如果研究的动力充足并且主要结果发生 8% 的变化，那么 p 就会小于 0.05。
The p-value, the statistical value here becomes significant.
p 值，此处的统计值变得显着。
And now you say, "Ooh, the ketogenic diet is effective for this," or, "The ketogenic diet does not work for X." And this is, I think, highly misleading because when you peel the surface of any randomized clinical trial, you find that there are people who were like amazing responders.
现在你说，“哦，生酮饮食对此有效”，或者“生酮饮食对 X 不起作用”。我认为，这是高度误导的，因为当你剥开任何随机临床试验的表面时，你会发现有些人的反应非常出色。
There are people whose lives was changed truly.
有些人的生活真正改变了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And then there are people who it didn't change anything.
还有一些人认为它没有改变任何事情。
And then there are also people who got worse.
还有一些人的情况变得更糟。
And then you average everyone, you squish everyone into this average, and then the RCT is a statistical test of averages.
然后你对每个人进行平均，将每个人压缩到这个平均值，然后 RCT 就是对平均值的统计检验。
Nobody is the average.
没有人是平均水平。
Like, nobody is actually the average.
就像，没有人真正是平均水平。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Literally.
字面上地。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Literally.
从字面上看。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Literally.
从字面上看。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And then the ketogenic diet could literally save lives, and it could cure or be a really solid treatment for schizophrenia or bipolar or Crohn's disease or whatever it is, for 20% of the population.
然后，生酮饮食确实可以拯救生命，它可以治愈或真正有效地治疗 20% 的人口的精神分裂症、躁郁症、克罗恩病或其他疾病。
And we'll never find out-
我们永远不会发现——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
just because we have a science of averages.
只是因为我们有一门平均科学。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Well, a safe self-experimentation is the only solution to this.
好吧，安全的自我实验是唯一的解决方案。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's the only solution.
这是唯一的解决办法。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
There's a clash here between the value of the human experience, right?
人类经验的价值之间存在冲突，对吗？
You know that this thing works for you and that you live at a higher level, right?
你知道这个东西对你有用并且你生活在更高的水平，对吧？
You can fulfill your potential.
你可以发挥你的潜力。
And then you see the Science, the capital S Science that tells you, "No. What you think works doesn't work." And they just, "No, but it works for me." And then you have a white coat-wearing person who says-
然后你会看到《科学》，大写的《科学》告诉你，“不。你认为有效的东西并不有效。”他们只是说：“不，但这对我有用。”然后你会看到一个穿着白大褂的人说——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
"No, no, I have the authority.
“不，不，我有权力。
I can tell you this RCT shows that it's not effective." And I think this really is damaging.
我可以告诉你，这个随机对照试验表明它没有效果。”我认为这确实是有害的。
It makes me angry.
这让我很生气。
I feel uncomfortable when I talk about this because this is completely disregarding the human experience in service of this framework that doesn't serve the individual.
当我谈论这个时，我感到不舒服，因为这完全忽视了为这个不为个人服务的框架服务的人类经验。
The RCT was invented for very good reasons and it's very useful in some circumstances, like do antibiotics work?
RCT 的发明有很好的理由，并且在某些情况下非常有用，例如抗生素有效吗？
Should you be doing surgery this way or that way?
手术应该这样还是那样？
But when you get to interventions or treatments that are likely to have highly individualized effects, and there are people who respond amazingly to this, to that, then you end up disempowering people.
但是，当你采取可能产生高度个体化效果的干预或治疗，并且有人对此、对那做出惊人的反应时，那么你最终会剥夺人们的权力。
So I think there's a clash of, I know this to be true from my experience, and then I have this person in this position of authority, this scientist or this doctor that says, "No, this doesn't work because the RCT showed that it didn't work." This breaks trust and so I understand the frustration of so many people who've lost confidence in science and the medical establishment, I think for good reasons in many cases.
所以我认为这是一个冲突，根据我的经验，我知道这是真的，然后我让这个权威人士、这位科学家或这位医生说，“不，这不起作用，因为随机对照试验表明它不起作用。”这打破了信任，所以我理解许多人对科学和医疗机构失去信心的沮丧，我认为在很多情况下都是有充分理由的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Is it fair to say that then there is no best diet for mitochondria except the one that's energetically not calorically excessive?
可以公平地说，除了能量不超标的饮食之外，没有对线粒体最好的饮食吗？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
So eating too much for sure damages the whole system, including mitochondria.
所以吃太多肯定会损害整个系统，包括线粒体。
So the first piece of response to your question is because we don't think about diet in individualized way, we're missing the boat on actually finding diets that work for different people.
因此，对您问题的第一个回答是，因为我们没有以个性化的方式考虑饮食，所以我们错过了真正找到适合不同人的饮食的机会。
So we're working on a platform that would empower people to get some objective readout, right?
所以我们正在开发一个平台，让人们能够获得一些客观的读数，对吗？
Of energetically, how are they doing.
在精力方面，他们做得怎么样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And then a framework also to we can all be thinking scientifically about our own health and about ourselves, and once you realize you are the flow of energy-
然后我们所有人都可以科学地思考我们自己的健康和我们自己的框架，一旦你意识到你是能量的流动-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
that rushes through your body with different levels of resistance, then you can think about the food you put in your body is actually fueling that flow, right?
它以不同程度的阻力冲过你的身体，那么你可以想一想，你放入体内的食物实际上是在加速这种流动，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
You are the movement of energy, and that is continuously fueled by what you put in there, and then by the activity you do and the kind of things you engage with.
你是能量的运动，它不断地被你投入的东西、你所做的活动和你参与的事物所推动。
So yes, we need a framework for this.
所以，是的，我们需要一个框架。
We're working on that.
我们正在努力解决这个问题。
So that's the individualized piece, right?
这就是个性化的作品，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
At this point, I'm pretty convinced there's no one diet that is a best diet for everyone.
在这一点上，我非常确信没有一种饮食是适合每个人的最佳饮食。
I've seen people thrive on very different diets-
我见过人们在非常不同的饮食中茁壮成长-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
since we've been kind of working on related areas, and a few years ago, I received a research prize, the Baszucki Prize in Science, which was so enabling.
因为我们一直在相关领域开展工作，几年前，我获得了一项研究奖，即巴斯祖基科学奖，这真是太有帮助了。
And Baszucki group is a family foundation, their son was diagnosed with bipolar disease and tried all sorts of treatments and drugs that didn't work very well or actually made things worse.
Baszucki 集团是一个家庭基金会，他们的儿子被诊断出患有双相情感障碍，并尝试了各种治疗方法和药物，但效果不佳或实际上使情况变得更糟。
And so they were on a diagnostic odyssey and trying to find something for years.
因此，他们多年来一直在进行诊断冒险并试图找到一些东西。
And then finally, they came across a psychiatrist who was using the ketogenic diet as a treatment.
最后，他们遇到了一位使用生酮饮食进行治疗的精神科医生。
And so he went on a ketogenic diet, and Jan Baszucki, the mom, said, like, "I had my son back." Within a few weeks-
于是他开始进行生酮饮食，而他的母亲简·巴斯祖基 (Jan Baszucki) 说，“我的儿子回来了。”几周之内——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Amazing
太棒了
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
his mood got stabilized.
他的情绪稳定下来。
He was able to sleep and he stopped kind of cycling between mania and major depression.
他能够入睡，并且停止了躁狂症和重度抑郁症之间的循环。
So for him, that really worked.
所以对他来说，这确实有效。
And so I was sensitized to that area of work and research and then dozens of other patients.
因此，我对该领域的工作和研究以及其他数十名患者都很敏感。
And I've met so many people now who manage their mental health disorder with a ketogenic diet, and they test their blood ketones to make sure they're still in ketosis.
我现在遇到了很多通过生酮饮食来控制心理健康障碍的人，他们测试他们的血酮以确保他们仍然处于酮症状态。
And there's now a continuous ketone monitor, CKM, CGM, right?
现在有连续酮监测仪、CKM、CGM，对吧？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
So you can test your ketones.
所以你可以测试你的酮。
I wore one for a month and learned some really interesting things about my body and about how-
我穿了一个月，了解了一些关于我的身体的非常有趣的事情以及如何-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Were you ketogenic?
你是生酮的吗？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
I tried.
我试过了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Did you like it, being in keto?
你喜欢酮吗？
Ketosis, excuse me.
酮症，对不起。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
I really enjoyed the state of ketosis.
我真的很享受酮症的状态。
And I think there's a reason why fasting is a common practice in every ancient tradition.
我认为禁食在每个古老传统中都是一种常见的做法是有原因的。
And every religion has a fasting component to them.
每个宗教都有禁食的成分。
It puts the organism in this pro-healing state, right?
它使有机体处于这种有利于愈合的状态，对吧？
Which is probably why you don't eat if you're sick, and why animals also stop eating when they're unwell.
这可能就是为什么你生病时不吃东西，也是为什么动物在不舒服时也会停止进食。
So it seems to foster, promote something.
所以它似乎在培育、促进某些东西。
And then I had much more better clarity of mind, and that's what a lot of patients report as well.
然后我的头脑变得更加清晰，这也是很多患者所报告的。
Like they-
就像他们一样——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Did you stay on it?
你坚持下去了吗？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's hard to maintain.
很难维护。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
It's hard to maintain, and I didn't feel the need.
维护起来很困难，我觉得没有必要。
I missed berries.
我想念浆果。
I avoid-- I know I don't handle sugar well, so I ditched refined sugars maybe like-
我避免——我知道我不能很好地处理糖，所以我放弃了精制糖，也许——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right
右
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
20 years ago.
20年前。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Do you drink alcohol?
你喝酒吗？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
I don't.
我不知道。
There's good research.
有很好的研究。
When I saw that study, I was like, "Oh my God.
当我看到这项研究时，我想，“天哪。
This might be why I feel like shit the next day after I have alcohol, or my sleep is not good, or..."
这可能就是为什么我喝酒后第二天感觉很糟糕，或者我的睡眠不好，或者……”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oof.
噢。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And patients with mitochondrial disease, the majority of them are very alcohol intolerant.
而患有线粒体疾病的患者，他们中的大多数都对酒精非常不耐受。
And then you can make all sorts of theories about maybe it's the detoxification enzyme in the liver and like energetically, they're on edge, right?
然后你可以提出各种各样的理论，也许这是肝脏中的解毒酶，就像精力充沛一样，他们处于紧张状态，对吗？
And then if you look at how much energy does it cost to get rid of the alcohol, right?
然后如果你看看摆脱酒精需要多少能量，对吗？
It's a toxin.
这是一种毒素。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
So everything in biology costs energy.
因此，生物学中的一切都需要消耗能量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Nothing is free.
没有什么是免费的。
A basic energetic law of life.
生命的基本能量法则。
So if you put alcohol in the body, now the body has to spend a precious portion of its energy budget to removing alcohol.
因此，如果您将酒精放入体内，那么身体现在必须花费其能量预算的宝贵部分来去除酒精。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it disrupts your sleep.
它会扰乱你的睡眠。
The data came out recently, this was covered in the traditional press, I think.
数据最近出来了，我认为传统媒体对此进行了报道。
You can look it up, folks.
大家可以查一下。
There's something like a 50% reduction in alcohol consumption in the United States.
美国的酒精消费量减少了 50%。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now, I think it's the lowest alcohol consumption in something like 90 years.
现在，我认为这是 90 年来最低的酒精消耗量。
It's pretty spectacular.
非常壮观。
We did an episode about alcohol a couple of years ago.
几年前我们制作了一集关于酒精的节目。
It turned out to be a very popular episode.
结果这是一个非常受欢迎的剧集。
The argument has been made by me, but others now as well, that zero is better than any.
这个论点是由我提出的，但现在其他人也提出过，零比任何都好。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the upper limit for sustained health before you start to run into some issues is probably one or two drinks per week.
在您开始遇到某些问题之前，保持健康的上限可能是每周喝一到两杯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But this idea that wine is good for us, there's been a reanalysis of that by Keith Humphreys and others at Stanford.
但斯坦福大学的基思·汉弗莱斯 (Keith Humphreys) 和其他人重新分析了葡萄酒对我们有益的观点。
If you look at the way those studies were designed, and he's coming on the podcast, so I'm not going to detail it now, the way those studies were designed was poor experimental design.
如果你看看这些研究的设计方式，他会出现在播客上，所以我现在不打算详细说明，这些研究的设计方式是糟糕的实验设计。
All of it speaks to the fact that zero is better than any.
所有这些都说明了这样一个事实：零比任何都好。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Uh-huh.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And now that's not to say people shouldn't enjoy a drink every once in a while if they want to, but they should know what they're doing.
这并不是说人们不应该偶尔喝一杯，如果他们愿意的话，而是他们应该知道自己在做什么。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yep.
是的。
Are you willing to sacrifice 10% of your energy budget going towards alcohol detoxification?
您愿意牺牲 10% 的能量预算来进行酒精戒毒吗？
Can you spare that at 10%?
你能节省10%吗？
If you care about that 10% and you want your vitality, then maybe you don't drink.
如果你在乎那10%并且你想要活力，那么也许你不喝酒。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When I was going to a lot of scientific meetings, there's a lot of drinking that happens at scientific meetings.
当我参加很多科学会议时，科学会议上会发生很多喝酒的情况。
I would take solace in the fact that, A, I'm going to sleep relatively early.
令我感到安慰的是，A，我会睡得比较早。
11 o'clock isn't that early.
11点还不算早。
But I didn't stay out late, and I wouldn't drink, and I'd watch other people in my field that I was competing with stay out late drinking.
但我不会在外面熬夜，也不会喝酒，我会看着我所在领域的其他人在外面与我竞争熬夜喝酒。
And some of them were more senior than I am, with bigger labs, and I was like, "I'm going to take your lunch." "I'm going to take your lunch."
他们中的一些人比我级别更高，拥有更大的实验室，我当时就想，“我要请你吃午饭了。” “我去请你的午餐。”
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
The competitive edge.
竞争优势。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
That, and I'd recommend that they watch certain Netflix series, because that'll definitely- ...
那，我建议他们观看某些 Netflix 连续剧，因为那肯定会——……
take your competition out.
淘汰你的竞争对手。
No. I would watch people who are in the field of health and science degrade their health-
不，我会看到健康和科学领域的人们降低他们的健康——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in real time, and it was perplexing to me-
实时的，这让我很困惑-
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
because the amount of alcohol consumption.
因为饮酒量。
Anyway, I'm editorializing now.
无论如何，我现在正在编辑。
It's bad for your mitochondria, is what I'm getting at.
这对你的线粒体有害，这就是我的意思。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
I think it steals a piece of your energy budget.
我认为它窃取了你的一部分能源预算。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Okay.
好的。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
So whether you want to allocate that energy, if you have extra energy to spare, you want to do that.
因此，无论你是否想要分配这些能量，如果你有多余的能量，你都会想要这样做。
But it's-
但它是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's a good way to think about it
这是一个很好的思考方式
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
in some cases, let's say vital processes, nothing you can do about this, and as you age, probably those increases.
在某些情况下，比如说重要的过程，你对此无能为力，而且随着年龄的增长，这些情况可能会增加。
Stress processes-
压力过程-
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
right?
对吗？
The mind creates most of those-
头脑创造了其中的大部分——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
stress-related energetic costs.
与压力相关的能量成本。
And then growth, maintenance, and repair.
然后是生长、维护和修复。
If you're, for some reason, circumstantial or we all have shit from our past that we deal with.
如果出于某种原因，你是偶然的，或者我们都有过去的事情需要处理。
If this is burning a big chunk of your energy budget, right, every day you're a little traumatized or you worry about the future, about your self-image or whatever.
如果这消耗了你很大一部分能量预算，那么你每天都会受到一点创伤，或者你担心未来、担心你的自我形象或其他什么。
If this is burning, let's say 20%, 30% of your energy budget, and when you drink alcohol, that 30% goes to 5%, right?
如果这是燃烧，假设你的能量预算有 20%、30%，而当你喝酒时，这 30% 会变成 5%，对吧？
You're maybe wasting, let's say, 10% of your budget to detoxifying alcohol.
比方说，您可能会浪费 10% 的预算来戒酒。
But if you're relieving that stress, I suspect this is why there's people that really like their social drinking, because it relieves kind of a stress energy wastage.
但如果你要缓解压力，我怀疑这就是为什么有人真的喜欢社交饮酒，因为它可以缓解压力和能量浪费。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
No, it makes sense.
不，这是有道理的。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
No, the stress piece is huge.
不，压力很大。
You've set up this framework for us, which I really, really like, about energetic flow as opposed to just energy coming into the system as a key thing to think about, and then how we allocate energy-
你为我们建立了这个框架，我真的非常喜欢这个框架，关于能量流，而不是仅仅将能量进入系统作为需要考虑的关键问题，然后我们如何分配能量-
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
at the mitochondrial level, but at the decision-making, subjective, whole person level.
在线粒体水平上，但在决策、主观、整个人的水平上。
Doing things that bring us a sense of meaning clearly is energy building-
做那些能给我们带来明确意义的事情就是能量的积累——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
not just energy expending.
不仅仅是能量消耗。
Although we can't take it so far that we're not getting enough sleep.
尽管我们不能因为睡眠不足而走得太远。
There's always the housekeeping that needs to be done-
总有一些家务需要做——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of sleep and nutrition, et cetera.
睡眠、营养等。
I am curious about exercise.
我对运动很好奇。
You mentioned training for a marathon will double the number of mitochondria.
你提到马拉松训练会使线粒体数量增加一倍。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
At most, yes.
最多是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But where's the sort of sweet spot of doing more exercise in order to increase mitochondrial density and-
但是，为了增加线粒体密度而进行更多锻炼的最佳点在哪里——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
et cetera, efficiency, but not so much that you're robbing mitochondria from other areas of your biology that are critical?
等等，效率，但又不至于从生物学的其他重要领域夺走线粒体？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Good question.
好问题。
If you exercise too much and you're a young, healthy male, you can actually decrease testosterone level.
如果你运动过多并且你是年轻健康的男性，你实际上会降低睾丸激素水平。
Right?
正确的？
Endurance training-
耐力训练——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
can shut down your testosterone production, your reproductive system, basically.
基本上可以关闭你的睾丸激素生产，你的生殖系统。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
So that tradeoff, the kind of tradeoffs we talked about with young females also applies to males in those kind of ways.
因此，我们与年轻女性讨论的这种权衡也以这种方式适用于男性。
Where that threshold is, I think, is also highly individualized And um, like overtraining syndrome is a very real thing.
我认为这个阈值也是高度个性化的，嗯，过度训练综合症是一个非常真实的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And even people who devote a lot of their life and energy to becoming better athletes, like there is a limit.
即使是那些投入大量生命和精力来成为更好运动员的人，也好像有一个极限。
And I used to be a competitive cyclist, and I raced kind of semi-professionally in my college days, and I knew that if I worked out, if I was on the road, then I used to do like intense and long-distance workouts.
我曾经是一名有竞争力的自行车手，在大学时代我参加过半职业比赛，我知道如果我锻炼，如果我在路上，那么我过去会进行高强度和长距离的锻炼。
I logged all of my training, how many hours, kilometers, all of this.
我记录了我所有的训练，多少小时，多少公里，所有这些。
If I did more, like 20, 22 hours a week on the bike, I would get like Achilles tendon, that was kind of my sweet spot, or my sensitive, weak spot, or my knee.
如果我骑得更多，比如每周骑 20、22 小时，我就会变得像跟腱，那是我的最佳点，或者是我的敏感点、弱点，或者是我的膝盖。
So there was a limit, right?
所以有一个限制，对吗？
And for me, that limit was 20, 22 hours.
对我来说，这个限制是 20、22 小时。
And maybe that's why I never became a professional cyclist.
也许这就是我从未成为职业自行车手的原因。
I wanted to at some point.
我想在某个时候。
I thought maybe after undergrad I'll be a professional cyclist, but you realize you need to spend a lot of hours on the bike to do this.
我想也许本科毕业后我会成为一名职业自行车手，但你意识到你需要花很多时间在自行车上才能做到这一点。
And my limit was that, right?
我的极限就是这样，对吗？
And I did some plyometrics and some other sprint building exercises, and I weighed like 10, 15 more pounds than I do now.
我做了一些增强式训练和其他一些冲刺训练，我的体重比现在增加了 10 到 15 磅。
I was investing more resources there.
我在那里投入了更多资源。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Then when I started the PhD, I was more inspired to, at some point it was like, "Okay, do I write this paper or do I go for a three-hour bike ride?"
然后，当我开始攻读博士学位时，我受到了更多启发，在某些时候，我想，“好吧，我是写这篇论文还是去骑三个小时的自行车？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And then spend like three hours recovering, making a great amount of food.
然后花大约三个小时恢复，制作大量食物。
And so the trade-offs, at some point, I started to feel like I want to put my energy towards developing these ideas.
因此，在某些时候，我开始觉得我想把精力投入到发展这些想法上。
And so there was kind of a trade-off from athletic performance and muscle-building towards more intellectual activities.
因此，从运动表现和肌肉锻炼到更多的智力活动，需要进行权衡。
And that sweet spot, I think, is unique to each person.
我认为，这个最佳点对于每个人来说都是独一无二的。
And some people, I think, use running as like a therapy.
我认为有些人把跑步当作一种疗法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Some people use eating, some people use running, some people use gambling.
有的人用吃，有的人用跑，有的人用赌。
Whatever it is for you.
不管它对你来说是什么。
So I don't know that there is kind of a number of hours, number of miles per week, for sure not.
所以我不知道每周有多少小时、多少英里，当然不是。
And whether you do something that inspires you or whether you do something and it's a fucking grind, I think that makes a difference for how much energy you have to do it and how much is good for you.
无论你做了什么能够激励你的事情，还是你做的事情是一件他妈的苦差事，我认为这会影响你需要多少精力去做这件事，以及多少精力对你有好处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
I know you spend a lot of time in the gym.
我知道你花了很多时间在健身房。
Steven Pressfield, who you chatted to, and his concept of resistance.
史蒂文·普雷斯菲尔德（Steven Pressfield），你和他聊天过，以及他的抵抗概念。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Right?
对吗？
I think that there's something there.
我认为那里有东西。
You need to give the body a certain amount of resistance.
你需要给身体一定的抵抗力。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And that's true physically, but also true mentally.
这在身体上是正确的，在精神上也是如此。
Too much resistance crushes you, right?
太多的阻力会压垮你，对吗？
And then it's too difficult, and it's demoralizing and de-energizing.
然后它就太困难了，而且会让人士气低落、失去活力。
But not enough resistance is not inspiring.
但没有足够的抵抗并不鼓舞人心。
And then being bored, like being imprisoned.
然后就感到无聊，就像被囚禁一样。
That might be why being in prison is such a thing we do to people who've done really bad things, because it really crushes a human spirit when you have nothing to do.
这可能就是为什么我们对那些做了真正坏事的人会做这样的事，因为当你无事可做时，它真的会摧毁人的精神。
And having something to do is kind of exerting resistance to the human mind.
有事可做就是对人类思想的抵抗。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
So bumping your mind against something, and that's something academics I think really typically enjoy.
因此，让你的思想与某些事物发生冲突，我认为这是学者们真正喜欢的事情。
Having a problem, being curious about something.
有问题，对某事感到好奇。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Resistance through the lens of what we're talking about today is very interesting.
从我们今天讨论的角度来看，抵抗是非常有趣的。
I think it's worth underscoring it again because we've established, you've established, let's be fair here.
我认为值得再次强调这一点，因为我们已经确立了，你们也已经确立了，让我们公平地说。
You've established that it's not just about mitochondria making ATP and energy.
您已经确定这不仅仅是线粒体产生 ATP 和能量。
They're actually controlling energy flow-
他们实际上是在控制能量流-
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Transforming it
改造它
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
transforming it-
改造它——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm
毫米
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
à la the Morse code rate and content.
à la 摩尔斯电码速率和内容。
And so there's this allocation piece, but then there's also this idea that in order to transform energy, it has to meet resistance.
所以就有了这个分配部分，但也有这样的想法：为了转化能量，它必须遇到阻力。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that's where the transformation occurs.
这就是转变发生的地方。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so perhaps the whole concept of getting more vital, getting better, learning, et cetera, it's about that feeling of friction.
因此，也许变得更有活力、变得更好、学习等等的整个概念就是关于摩擦的感觉。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
When I've done episodes about neuroplasticity, I've tried to really get into people's minds.
当我制作有关神经可塑性的剧集时，我试图真正进入人们的思想。
The moment you feel agitation, that means the opportunity for plasticity is turning on.
当你感到激动的那一刻，就意味着可塑性的机会正在开启。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Your brain doesn't change if it's in a state like any other state.
如果你的大脑处于与其他任何状态一样的状态，它就不会改变。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is unfortunately why traumatic experiences are so good at rewiring the brain.
不幸的是，这就是为什么创伤经历能够如此有效地重塑大脑。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Because your brain goes, "I'm not used to this much adrenaline and norepinephrine.
因为你的大脑会说：“我不习惯这么多的肾上腺素和去甲肾上腺素。
Whatever's happening now is really important."
无论现在发生什么都非常重要。”
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And it actually grabs too much.
它实际上抓住了太多。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that's PTSD.
这就是创伤后应激障碍。
It grabs random events.
它抓取随机事件。
It's a whole thing.
这是一整件事。
But for healthy learning-
但为了健康的学习——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
adaptive learning, you have to have the resistance.
适应性学习，你必须有抵抗力。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you can do the thing, your brain won't change.
如果你能做到这件事，你的大脑就不会改变。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
If you can do the thing, your body won't change.
如果你能做到这一点，你的身体就不会改变。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I try and explain this in the context of cognitive stuff, that agitation and frustration, you have to seek that out.
我尝试在认知方面解释这一点，即焦虑和沮丧，你必须找出答案。
You don't want to overdo it, but I wish they had told me that when I was in school.
你不想做得太过分，但我希望他们在我上学时告诉我这一点。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
I know.
我知道。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right?
对吗？
I mean, I was a pretty avid learner, but it's like you just want to tell people the moment you're frustrated-
我的意思是，我是一个非常热衷于学习的人，但就像你只想在你沮丧的时候告诉别人——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
awesome.
太棒了。
Your circuits are primed to change.
你的电路已经准备好改变。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Anyway, I get very impassioned about this.
无论如何，我对此非常热情。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah, me too.
是的，我也是。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So because it's how we get better.
因为这是我们变得更好的方式。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think most people feel that, and they think, oh, they're doing something wrong, but actually the errors signal that more and tell your brain you have to change.
我认为大多数人都有这种感觉，他们认为，哦，他们做错了什么，但实际上这些错误更多地发出了信号，告诉你的大脑你必须改变。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
It's just that the change takes time.
只是改变需要时间。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And it takes time, and it takes energy.
这需要时间，也需要精力。
The reason change is difficult, transitions, moving house is one of the most stressful things, divorced, getting divorced or changing relationships.
改变是困难的原因，过渡，搬家是最有压力的事情之一，离婚，离婚或改变关系。
Any kind of transition.
任何类型的过渡。
By definition, a transition requires change-
根据定义，过渡需要改变——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
which requires energy.
这需要能量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And I suspect the reason why life transitions are difficult is because they cost energy, and we have a finite amount of it.
我怀疑生命转变之所以困难的原因是因为它们需要消耗能量，而我们的能量是有限的。
So resistance, the energy resistance principle is something that we've developed recently with Neurosha that encapsulates this.
因此，阻力，能量阻力原理是我们最近与 Neurosha 一起开发的，它概括了这一点。
It says like Life is resistance.
它说生命就是抵抗。
You cannot have life if there's no resistance.
如果没有抵抗，你就无法拥有生命。
There's no transformation.
没有任何转变。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You're a cadaver.
你是一具尸体。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yes, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
Or you're like a beaming light ray in outer space.
或者你就像外太空中的一道光芒。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It just goes on.
它就这样继续下去。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
It just goes on, never transform.
它只是继续下去，永远不会改变。
There's a potential for change, but there's no transformation.
有改变的潜力，但没有转变。
It's never going to change until it hits resistance, a green leaf on Earth, for example.
它永远不会改变，直到遇到阻力，例如地球上的一片绿叶。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love it.
我喜欢它。
It's such an important concept.
这是一个非常重要的概念。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And just to refer, I think you think about bodybuilding and or working out, how the body gets stronger.
仅供参考，我认为您会考虑健美和/或锻炼，身体如何变得更强。
The way the body gets stronger is by facing resistance, right?
身体变得更强的方法就是面对阻力，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
If your muscles get accustomed to a certain weight, if you want to grow in strength or in mass, you need to go heavier, right?
如果你的肌肉习惯了一定的重量，如果你想增加力量或质量，你就需要增加重量，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And so it's increasing resistance.
所以它的阻力正在增加。
Same thing if you send an astronaut in outer space, their body gets so weak.
同样的情况，如果你把宇航员送到外太空，他们的身体会变得很虚弱。
Their bones demineralize, and their muscles atrophy, and their hearts weaken.
他们的骨骼脱矿质，肌肉萎缩，心脏衰弱。
And then they come back onto Earth, and then they struggle.
然后他们回到地球，然后他们挣扎。
And that's because when you go out in outer space, there's no resistance, right?
那是因为当你去外太空时，没有阻力，对吗？
You don't feel gravity because you're constantly falling, right, in orbit.
你感觉不到重力，因为你不断地在轨道上坠落。
And then there's nothing resisting the structure of your body.
然后就没有任何东西可以抵抗你的身体结构了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They age very fast.
他们衰老得很快。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah, exactly.
是的，完全正确。
They just-
他们只是——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Astronauts don't fare well.
宇航员的日子并不好过。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Now they have ways to compensate for this.
现在他们有办法弥补这一点。
I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Waking Up.
我想短暂休息一下并感谢我们的赞助商之一“醒来”。
Waking Up is a meditation app that offers hundreds of guided meditation programs, mindfulness trainings, yoga nidra sessions, and more.
Waking Up 是一款冥想应用程序，提供数百个引导冥想计划、正念训练、瑜伽休息课程等。
I started practicing meditation when I was about 15 years old, and it made a profound impact on my life.
我大约15岁的时候开始练习冥想，它对我的生活产生了深远的影响。
And by now, there are thousands of quality peer-reviewed studies that emphasize how useful mindfulness meditation can be for improving our focus, managing stress and anxiety, improving our mood, and much more.
到目前为止，已有数以千计的高质量同行评审研究强调正念冥想对于提高我们的注意力、管理压力和焦虑、改善我们的情绪等等有多么有用。
In recent years, I started using the Waking Up app for my meditations because I find it to be a terrific resource for allowing me to really be consistent with my meditation practice.
近年来，我开始使用“Waking Up”应用程序进行冥想，因为我发现它是一个很棒的资源，可以让我真正坚持我的冥想练习。
Many people start a meditation practice and experience some benefits, but many people also have challenges keeping up with that practice.
许多人开始冥想练习并体验到一些好处，但许多人也面临着跟上练习的挑战。
What I and so many other people love about the Waking Up app is that it has a lot of different meditations to choose from, and those meditations are of different durations.
我和许多其他人喜欢“醒来”应用程序的原因是它有很多不同的冥想可供选择，而且这些冥想的持续时间也不同。
So it makes it very easy to keep up with your meditation practice, both from the perspective of novelty, you never get tired of those meditations.
所以它让你很容易跟上你的冥想练习，无论是从新奇的角度来看，你永远不会厌倦这些冥想。
There's always something new to explore and to learn about yourself and about the effectiveness of meditation.
总有一些新的东西值得探索和了解你自己以及冥想的有效性。
And you can always fit meditation into your schedule, even if you only have two or three minutes per day in which to meditate.
即使您每天只有两到三分钟的时间进行冥想，您也可以随时将冥想纳入您的日程安排中。
I also really like doing yoga nidra, or what is sometimes called non-sleep deep rest, for about 10 or 20 minutes because it is a great way to restore mental and physical vigor without the tiredness that some people experience when they wake up from a conventional nap.
我也非常喜欢做约 10 或 20 分钟的瑜伽休息术，有时也被称为非睡眠深度休息，因为这是恢复精神和身体活力的好方法，而且不会像某些人从传统午睡中醒来时那样感到疲劳。
If you'd like to try the Waking Up app, please go to wakingup.com/huberman, where you can access a free 30-day trial.
如果您想尝试 Waking Up 应用程序，请访问 wakingup.com/huberman，在这里您可以免费试用 30 天。
Again, that's wakingup.com/huberman to access a free 30-day trial.
同样，访问 wakingup.com/huberman 即可获得 30 天免费试用。
I'm curious what your thoughts are about the fast-emerging space of supplements and peptides that people are taking to ostensibly improve their mitochondrial function, health, output, et cetera.
我很好奇您对快速兴起的补充剂和肽领域有何看法，人们正在服用这些补充剂和肽，表面上可以改善线粒体功能、健康、产量等。
The ones that come to mind are the following-
我想到的有以下这些——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
just to constrain it a bit because it's a huge space.
只是为了限制它一点，因为它是一个巨大的空间。
Coenzyme Q10, a number of people, including me, take.
辅酶Q10，包括我在内的很多人都服用。
This isn't a plug for it, it's just I take it.
这不是它的插头，只是我拿着它。
I was told that it can help my mitochondria.
有人告诉我它可以帮助我的线粒体。
I don't take methylene blue.
我不吃亚甲蓝。
I'll mention why in a moment.
我稍后会提到原因。
There are some peptides, like SS-31 is becoming very popular now.
有一些肽，例如SS-31现在变得非常流行。
Cocktails of NAD SS-31, things like this.
NAD SS-31 的鸡尾酒，就像这样。
Oh, yeah, people are injecting this stuff like crazy.
哦，是的，人们疯狂地注入这种东西。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Really?
真的吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
SS-31?
SS-31？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I guarantee within a radius of one mile- ...
我保证在一英里半径内-...
there are a lot of SS-31 injected.
注入了大量的SS-31。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Oh, my God.
哦，天啊。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We're in Los Angeles.
我们在洛杉矶。
So, oh, yeah, SS-31 in cocktail with NAD is very common.
所以，哦，是的，SS-31 与 NAD 混合在一起很常见。
There are a couple others.
还有其他几个。
SLU, S-L-U, there's another one.
SLU、S-L-U，还有另一种。
All of this is MotC.
所有这一切都是MotC。
A lot of people are injecting these peptides in effort to improve their mitochondrial function.
许多人正在注射这些肽来努力改善线粒体功能。
Would love your thoughts on this.
希望您对此有何想法。
Don't worry, you're protected no matter what direction you answer.
不用担心，无论您回答哪个方向，您都会受到保护。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah, the term mitochondrial function, mitochondrial dysfunction, I think are misnomers because mitochondria have many functions.
是的，我认为线粒体功能、线粒体功能障碍这个术语用词不当，因为线粒体有很多功能。
And so I think that the nomenclature, that's more of a maybe a researcher kind of niche kind of thing.
所以我认为命名法可能更像是研究人员的利基之类的东西。
But I think it's misleading to talk of mitochondrial dysfunction because mitochondria transform energy and make ATP.
但我认为谈论线粒体功能障碍具有误导性，因为线粒体会转化能量并产生 ATP。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Right.
对。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
They make hormones, and they make signals.
它们产生激素，并发出信号。
But to your point about supplements, I was a student when SS-31 was discovered.
但就您关于补充剂的观点而言，SS-31 被发现时我还是一名学生。
And I remember the person who discovered, Hazel Seto, who discovered SS-31.
我还记得发现者 Hazel Seto，他发现了 SS-31。
She was presenting at meetings.
她在会议上发言。
And so I've seen now it was commercialized as a stealth peptide, and then it went on the publicly traded.
所以我现在看到它作为一种隐形肽被商业化，然后它开始公开交易。
So it's not lived up to its expectation.
所以它没有达到它的期望。
It was supposed to be a treatment for mitochondrial disease, and mostly the trials have been negative.
它被认为是一种治疗线粒体疾病的方法，但大多数试验都是阴性的。
Those things, we're trying to tweak the system.
这些事情，我们正在尝试调整系统。
I think what we're trying to do with supplements is to optimize, tweak the circuitry, the metabolic circuitry that we have for flowing electrons to oxygen.
我认为我们试图用补充剂做的是优化和调整电路，即我们用于将电子流向氧气的代谢电路。
In an ideal world, electrons flow from food to oxygen, like two poles of a battery-
在理想的世界中，电子从食物流向氧气，就像电池的两个极一样——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
like a simple circuit, with just the right amount of resistance.
就像一个简单的电路，具有适量的电阻。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Right?
对吗？
Too much resistance, and then it feels terrible.
阻力太大，然后感觉很糟糕。
It feels like if you hold your breath-
感觉就像你屏住呼吸一样——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
and you feel like you're going to die.
你感觉自己快要死了。
That's too much resistance.
这阻力太大了
Not enough resistance feels like you're unhinged, and probably we think that's what mania is.
没有足够的抵抗感觉就像你精神错乱，也许我们认为这就是狂热。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Right?
对吗？
Where you feel like there's so much energy that you can't contain it.
你感觉能量太多，无法控制。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And then you can't sleep, and then your life kind of falls apart.
然后你就无法入睡，然后你的生活就崩溃了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
ADHD is another good example of that.
多动症是另一个很好的例子。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
That might be.
可能是这样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Yeah.
是的。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
So maybe those kind of conditions, disorders of the mind, we think are disorders of energy resistance.
因此，我们认为，也许那些精神障碍是能量抵抗障碍。
We don't have direct evidence for most of it, but I think that's-
我们没有大部分的直接证据，但我认为 -
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
a fairly well-supported idea.
一个得到充分支持的想法。
And supplements, in cases when your circuitry is impaired If you're deficient in coenzyme Q10, if you take it, you're going to feel it.
以及补充品，以防您的电路受损。如果您缺乏辅酶 Q10，如果您服用它，您就会感觉到。
And if you're deficient in something like vitamin B12, there are many parts of mitochondria that require B vitamins to flow electrons towards oxygen.
如果您缺乏维生素 B12 等物质，线粒体的许多部分都需要维生素 B 来将电子流向氧气。
So vitamin B deficiency, different vitamin Bs, including NAD, can really be terrible, and people have chronic fatigue-like syndromes from vitamin B12 deficiency, for example.
因此，维生素 B 缺乏，包括 NAD 在内的不同维生素 B 确实很糟糕，例如，人们会因缺乏维生素 B12 而出现慢性疲劳综合症。
So in cases where there's a deficiency or you think there might be a deficiency, maybe supplements can help palliate those.
因此，如果存在缺陷或您认为可能存在缺陷，也许补充剂可以帮助缓解这些问题。
My sense is that we've evolved over very long periods of time, and we're really well optimized.
我的感觉是，我们已经发展了很长一段时间，而且我们确实得到了很好的优化。
And the body and the mind, as two expressions of this energy flow, can work harmoniously together if we bring awareness to it .
身体和心灵作为能量流的两种表现形式，如果我们意识到它，就可以和谐地协同工作。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And if we keep energy flowing through exercise, through not eating too much-
如果我们通过锻炼、不吃太多来保持能量流动——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
and being hungry once in a while, I think there's ways to optimize the system.
偶尔感到饥饿，我认为有一些方法可以优化系统。
And there's a lot of people who live long, healthy, fulfilling lives, and they get sick once in a while, but they recover without supplements and without medical intervention.
有很多人过着长寿、健康、充实的生活，他们偶尔会生病，但他们不需要补充品和医疗干预就能康复。
So I think there's a path to get there.
所以我认为有一条路可以到达那里。
And so I think there's a place for supplements, but I've never taken a supplement.
所以我认为补充剂有一席之地，但我从未服用过补充剂。
And-
还有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And you have plenty of energy .
而且你有充足的精力。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
I cultivate my energy in different ways.
我以不同的方式培养我的能量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And I feel like it's a better investment of my energy and my research group.
我觉得这是对我的精力和我的研究团队的更好的投资。
We haven't studied drugs or, and we've been solicited to help pharmaceutical companies or other supplement type to test the effects of supplements on mitochondria.
我们还没有研究过药物，或者，我们已经被邀请帮助制药公司或其他补充剂类型来测试补充剂对线粒体的影响。
If we go in that route, then I think it's one approach that might lead useful results at some point.
如果我们走这条路，那么我认为这是一种可能在某个时候带来有用结果的方法。
But I feel like my energy, my contribution as a scientist is better positioned in understanding the energetic basis of mind, subjective experiences, body, and developing a more holistic system for what we are energetically and what we can do to support that.
但我觉得我作为一名科学家的能量和贡献可以更好地理解思想、主观体验、身体的能量基础，并为我们的能量以及我们可以做些什么来支持它开发一个更全面的系统。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Well, you're doing awesome work, so stay on the track you're on.
好吧，你做得很棒，所以请继续前进。
I just wanted your thoughts there.
我只是想听听你的想法。
And I should just say for sake of being responsible, folks, don't inject peptides that are for quote, unquote research purposes only.
我应该说，为了负责任，各位，不要注射仅用于引用、不引用研究目的的肽。
People are getting them on the gray market.
人们正在灰色市场上购买它们。
I mentioned methylene blue, so I should just close the hatch on that one, that I've avoided it for two reasons.
我提到了亚甲基蓝，所以我应该关闭那个的舱口，我出于两个原因避免使用它。
One, I saw the images of blue brains from people who had recently taken it.
第一，我看到了最近拍摄的人的蓝色大脑的图像。
Doesn't mean their brain stayed blue because they had taken it recently, but there are some data that point to the fact that methylene blue can intercalate into DNA and possibly cause some mutations there.
这并不意味着他们的大脑因为最近才服用而保持蓝色，但有一些数据表明，亚甲蓝可以嵌入 DNA 中，并可能导致那里发生一些突变。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That worries me.
这让我很担心。
And there are some data as well, and Chris Masterjohn talked about this recently, that if people are mitochondrial damage deficient, dealing with carbon monoxide poisoning, other metabolic issues-
还有一些数据，克里斯·马斯特约翰最近谈到了这一点，如果人们线粒体损伤不足，正在处理一氧化碳中毒和其他代谢问题——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that perhaps methylene blue, because it can reroute some of the pathways for these electrons, can be helpful.
也许亚甲基蓝会有所帮助，因为它可以改变这些电子的一些路径。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But if people are generally healthy, that it can cause more problems than it solves.
但如果人们普遍健康，那么它带来的问题可能比它解决的问题还要多。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And that was enough for me to just say, "I'm going to just stay away from this stuff." Also, I don't want to have a blue tongue like a monitor lizard.
这足以让我说：“我要远离这些东西。”另外，我不想拥有像巨蜥一样的蓝舌头。
Anyway, that's not a serious thing, but it just seems a little shaky for me, and I do worry-
不管怎样，这不是什么严重的事情，但对我来说似乎有点不稳定，我确实担心——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
about people just taking it.
关于人们只是接受它。
So, and I'm very happy that your laboratory is focusing on the molecular aspects, but also, as you said, the experiential aspects, meditation, meaning, purpose, and this notion of flow is something that I want to just ask you about.
所以，我很高兴你的实验室专注于分子方面，但正如你所说，也关注体验方面、冥想、意义、目的，而这种流动的概念正是我想问你的。
When you see things like Tai Chi-
当你看到像太极这样的东西时——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
if you're in New York City, if you see people early in the morning, if you get up, you see them doing Tai Chi, or years ago, I saw an interview with Iggy Pop, as a musician from, gosh, the '70s, and he's in tremendously good shape now and has always been.
如果你在纽约市，如果你一大早就看到人们，如果你起床，你会看到他们在打太极拳，或者几年前，我看过对 Iggy Pop 的采访，他是一位来自 70 年代的音乐家，天哪，他现在的状态非常好，而且一直如此。
And they asked him, "What's your secret?" They always ask these kind of, "What do you eat?" kind of things.
他们问他：“你的秘诀是什么？”他们总是问这样的问题：“你吃什么？”之类的事情。
And he was like, "It's all in the qigong breathing."
他说：“这一切都在气功呼吸中。”
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Oh, yeah.
哦，是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I chuckled because Tai Chi, qigong breathing, I personally believe that whether or not it's running, Tai Chi, qigong breathing, or lifting weights, the activity itself has certain benefits related to respiration, blood flow, muscle stress, et cetera, and recovery, but that the additional layer of benefit comes from the understanding over time, yoga as well, the understanding over time of how to direct energy-
我笑了，因为太极、气功呼吸，我个人认为，无论是跑步、太极、气功呼吸还是举重，活动本身对呼吸、血流、肌肉压力等和恢复都有一定的好处，但额外的一层好处来自于随着时间的推移的理解，瑜伽也是如此，随着时间的推移对如何引导能量的理解——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
in your body and mind.
在你的身体和心灵中。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
To be able to force yourself to get through some hard repetitions, but then to rest completely in the rest period.
能够强迫自己完成一些艰苦的重复，然后在休息期间完全休息。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm.
嗯。
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
To dynamically move from one position to another, not just as a physical movement-
动态地从一个位置移动到另一个位置，而不仅仅是一种身体运动——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but as an exercise in being able to anticipate, "Okay, here comes the painful part.
但作为一种能够预测的练习，“好吧，痛苦的部分来了。
I'm going to not brace myself too much.
我不会给自己太大的压力。
I'm going to try and, quote, unquote, 'flow through it', but I'm also going to put some restraint and pull back." And so I do think that for every physical and mental activity, there's the learning, and then there's the meta learning-
我会尝试引用或取消引用‘流过它’，但我也会采取一些克制并退出。”所以我确实认为对于每一项身体和心理活动，都有学习，然后有元学习 -
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
that comes from just having done it over and over, so you have this expectation and understanding.
这来自于一遍又一遍地做，所以你有这样的期望和理解。
You're learning how to allocate energy.
您正在学习如何分配能量。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I would just like your thoughts about this.
我只是想知道你对此的想法。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So I don't think it's qigong per se-
所以我不认为它本身就是气功-
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
Tai Chi per se-
太极拳本身
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
yoga, Pilates per se, lifting weights per se.
瑜伽、普拉提本身、举重本身。
I think those have each different benefits.
我认为它们各有不同的好处。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But what are your thoughts about learning to be a better, oh gosh, this sounds super woo-woo, but what the heck, energy channeler?
但是你对学习成为一个更好的人有什么想法，哦天哪，这听起来超级棒，但是到底是什么，能量引导者？
Two scientists talking about energy channeling.
两位科学家谈论能量通道。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Well, this is not woo.
嗯，这不是吴。
The mitochondria flow energy.
线粒体流动能量。
You can say they're a channel for energy flow, from biochemistry to electricity to ATP to metabolites to reactive oxygen species.
你可以说它们是能量流动的通道，从生物化学到电力到ATP到代谢物到活性氧。
All of these are different forms or modalities of energy.
所有这些都是不同形式或形式的能量。
Is there like a molecular reality to qigong or to qi or to prana or...
气功、气、普拉纳或……是否存在分子现实？
Like maybe.
也许吧。
And maybe if we look at all of these practices and we ask, what's the point of consilience?
也许如果我们审视所有这些实践并问，一致性的意义何在？
Like what's true?
好像什么是真的？
Maybe they all have like a little piece of the truth.
也许他们都知道一点点真相。
Like molecular biology and molecular sciences also has a piece of the truth, but it's not the whole truth.
就像分子生物学和分子科学一样，也有一部分真理，但不是全部真理。
And my sense is what is true that kind of is a bigger container to contain both our molecular physical existence and our experiential existence.
我的感觉是，这是一个更大的容器，可以容纳我们的分子物理存在和我们的经验存在。
The emotions, the states of consciousness, states of mind that we know are real, like crazy states of consciousness that we can experience with psychedelics, for example.
我们所知道的情绪、意识状态、精神状态都是真实的，例如我们可以通过致幻剂体验到的疯狂意识状态。
Like what can encapsulate all of this?
比如什么可以封装这一切？
What's the bigger truth?
更大的真相是什么？
And I think the bigger truth is that we are energy, and we flow through this channel, this body.
我认为更大的事实是，我们就是能量，我们通过这个通道、这个身体流动。
We have mouth, we have nose, lungs, heart.
我们有嘴、鼻子、肺、心脏。
All of this you can understand or the anatomy.
所有这些你都可以通过解剖来理解。
Human anatomy you can understand as an energy delivery, an energy flow system.
人体解剖学你可以理解为能量传递、能量流动系统。
Like a flow cell.
就像流动池一样。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Like a microchip.
就像一个微芯片。
And then there are gates that close and open, and then you can process information.
然后有一些门可以关闭和打开，然后你就可以处理信息。
Instead of electricity flowing through, we flow food, and then oxygen is at the other end pulling on electrons.
我们流过的不是电流，而是食物，然后氧气在另一端拉动电子。
So maybe all those practices have something to do with the movement of energy, which ultimately is electrons flowing through your metabolism, through your mitochondria, but then there's an experiential dimension to that, which is just as real.
所以也许所有这些练习都与能量的运动有关，能量的运动最终是电子流过你的新陈代谢，流过你的线粒体，但它还有一个体验维度，这也是真实的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
We don't have scientific tools to measure this.
我们没有科学工具来衡量这一点。
We can't image this with an MRI, maybe not yet, but I suspect there's a truth there.
我们无法用核磁共振成像来成像，也许还不能，但我怀疑这是事实。
And maybe one piece of that truth, and that's the way you describe Tai Chi and the way we do exercise.
也许这个事实的一部分，这就是你描述太极拳和我们锻炼的方式的方式。
Like you exercise, you push hard, and then you need to rest hard.
就像你锻炼一样，你努力推动，然后你需要努力休息。
If you don't rest hard, you're going to injure yourself, and you're not going to get as strong.
如果你不好好休息，你就会受伤，而且你也不会变得那么坚强。
You're not going to grow or evolve.
你不会成长或进化。
Mentally, we need resistance, and there's like...
在精神上，我们需要抵抗，就像……
So think about energy resistance brings us to think there's a philosophy of education that could be built around this.
因此，思考能量阻力让我们想到可以围绕它建立一种教育哲学。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
The art of education is finding the right amount of resistance to expose a child to.
教育的艺术是找到适当的阻力让孩子接触。
If the problem is too hard or too severe, you're going to crush them.
如果问题太难或太严重，你就会压垮他们。
You kill their spirit.
你扼杀了他们的精神。
But if you don't apply any resistance, there's no rules, then the energy is like this, and then they'll never learn.
但如果你不施加任何阻力，没有规则，那么能量就是这样，然后他们就永远学不会。
There needs to be like just a sweet spot.
需要有一个甜蜜点。
That's what great masters, great mentors are able to do.
这就是伟大的明师、伟大的导师能够做到的。
I think I've started to see my role as a mentor for people in the lab like this a little bit.
我想我已经开始看到自己作为实验室人员导师的角色了。
I see them as energetic processes.
我将它们视为充满活力的过程。
They're transforming energy.
他们正在转变能源。
They need the right amount of resistance and not too much, and it brings me more compassion, maybe for them as energetic movements.
他们需要适量的抵抗，而不是太多，这给我带来了更多的同情心，也许对他们来说是充满活力的运动。
And then I realize I'm more sensitive to the effect I have on them.
然后我意识到我对自己对他们的影响更加敏感。
But all of this movement and the Tai Chi, the exercise, lifting and resting is analogous to what the heart does.
但所有这些运动和太极拳、锻炼、举重和休息都类似于心脏的作用。
The way that the heart works is by contracting systole and then by relaxing.
心脏的工作方式是收缩收缩然后放松。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And then contracting and relaxing.
然后收缩和放松。
Same thing for like the way neurons work.
神经元的工作方式也是如此。
Boom, action potential, refractory phase.
繁荣期、动作电位、不应期。
You need to have that period of silence.
你需要有一段沉默的时间。
Boom, action potential, and refractory.
繁荣、行动潜力、难治性。
Same thing with sleep-wake cycles.
睡眠-觉醒周期也是如此。
You need to get awake, your body temperature rises, cortisol spikes up, you're aware of the world, you're exposed to stressors.
你需要醒来，你的体温升高，皮质醇升高，你了解世界，你面临压力。
If there's not enough stressors/challenges/meaningful things in your life, you get bored, and you want to die.
如果你的生活中没有足够的压力/挑战/有意义的事情，你就会感到无聊，并且想死。
So you need that, but then you need to kind of let go and sleep.
所以你需要它，但随后你需要放手睡觉。
So sleep-wake cycle, same thing.
睡眠-觉醒周期，同样的事情。
And maybe all of this has evolved from our existence on this planet.
也许这一切都是我们在这个星球上的存在演变而来的。
Like the sun rises, things get warm, and there's energy flowing around, and then the sun sets.
就像太阳升起一样，万物变暖，能量在周围流动，然后太阳落山。
The same movement as sunrise, sunset, day, night, there's contraction, resting, yoga.
和日出、日落、白天、晚上一样的运动，有收缩、休息、瑜伽。
The whole practice of yoga is based around this.
整个瑜伽的练习都是围绕这个展开的。
Like you strain your muscles, a great poor crazy positions, of immense resistance on your muscles, and then for what?
就像你拉伤你的肌肉一样，一个非常糟糕的疯狂姿势，对你的肌肉产生巨大的阻力，然后为了什么？
For Shavasana.
对于Shavasana。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And the whole point of yoga is Shavasana.
瑜伽的全部要点就是Shavasana。
So you ready the body by bringing so much resistance into it so that you can finally relax.
所以你要给身体带来很大的阻力，让身体做好准备，这样你才能最终放松。
And then the art of training maybe is not about the doing, but it's about the being.
训练的艺术也许不在于做事，而在于存在。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And maybe that's a broader kind of philosophy of life, but the art of being.
也许这是一种更广泛的生活哲学，而是存在的艺术。
Because if we do too much doing, I think many professionals know this, if you're always into doing and you're never kind of sitting back and resting and just being, and being really means just flowing, to use verbs.
因为如果我们做了太多的事情，我想很多专业人士都知道这一点，如果你总是热衷于做事，而你永远不会坐下来休息，只是存在，而存在实际上意味着只是流动，用动词来说。
Being is just having your energy flow, and it's doing its thing, and it's healing.
存在只是让你的能量流动，它正在做它的事情，它正在治愈。
It's healing the body and consolidating memories and everything, all the beautiful things that happen during sleep.
它可以治愈身体，巩固记忆以及一切，所有在睡眠期间发生的美好事情。
And-
还有——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
As opposed to transforming it into something in the outside world-
相对于将其转化为外界的某种东西——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Correct
正确
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
like a paper or investing or...
比如论文或投资或...
And it's the balance.
这就是平衡。
Clearly, what I'm hearing, and I don't want to speak for you, but what I'm hearing is that so much of health, mental health and physical health, and life really is about states of mind and body and mastering the transitions into and through and out of those states.
显然，我所听到的，我不想代表你说话，但我所听到的是，健康、心理健康和身体健康以及生活实际上与身心状态以及掌握进出这些状态的过渡有关。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But in a controlled way.
但以一种受控的方式。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Learning to direct those so that we're not at the whim of...
学习指导这些，这样我们就不会心血来潮……
I mean, this is the challenge that we get pulled into the drama or the numbing out of some online activity, or the energy of something going on over there that really pulls us.
我的意思是，这是我们被卷入戏剧中的挑战，或者是对某些在线活动的麻木，或者是那里发生的真正吸引我们的事情的能量。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And so I think we have to have that self-awareness.
所以我认为我们必须有这种自我意识。
But I love the idea that resistance itself is the thing to seek, not as a permanent state-
但我喜欢这样的想法：抵抗本身就是我们要寻求的东西，而不是作为一个永久的状态——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
but as a temporary state that you can then move through.
但作为一种临时状态，你可以通过它。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And I think if But if clearly people learned a ton today, but if nothing else, they now understand the biophysical principle that it's through that resistance that you direct and create energy-
我认为，如果人们今天学到了很多东西，但如果没有别的，他们现在理解了生物物理学原理，即通过这种阻力，你可以引导和创造能量-
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
for something else.
为了别的事。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Transform.
转变。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
You transform.
你变身。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yes.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Exactly.
正是如此。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Good managers know this.
优秀的管理者知道这一点。
Like if you want to have fulfilled employees, right, and a team that really derives joy and purpose, like people need to grow and learn.
就像如果你想要拥有有成就感的员工，对吧，以及一个真正能带来快乐和目标的团队，就像人们需要成长和学习一样。
And and the way that happens is by creating the right amount of resistance.
而发生这种情况的方法是产生适量的阻力。
And Steven Pressfield said this, the first time I heard of him, he was on the Joe Rogan podcast talking about his book and resistance, and he talks about it in slightly different ways.
史蒂文·普莱斯菲尔德（Steven Pressfield）这样说，我第一次听说他时，他在乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）播客上谈论他的书和抵抗，他谈论的方式略有不同。
But I think his resistance philosophy boils down to energy.
但我认为他的抵抗哲学可以归结为能量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And he talked about how when you feel afraid of something, right?
他谈到当你感到害怕某事时会怎样，对吗？
Like, as an artist, I think he speaks as an artist and for artist.
就像，作为一名艺术家，我认为他以艺术家的身份并为艺术家说话。
Like you feel into like this problem or this challenge or this new project and you're like, "Oh, like, I don't know, like this is scary shit." Well, I think his advice was when you feel fear, this is the signal-
就像你感觉到这个问题、这个挑战或这个新项目，你会说，“哦，我不知道，这太可怕了。”嗯，我认为他的建议是，当你感到恐惧时，这就是信号——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
that there's something there for you, right?
那里有适合你的东西，对吧？
That this can help you grow.
这可以帮助你成长。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And I resonate with this and I make a lot of my decisions, I can think rationally and think logically about steps in a biochemical pathway and about like logically like in 10 years like doing strategic planning.
我对此产生了共鸣，我做出了很多决定，我可以理性地、逻辑地思考生化途径中的步骤，就像在 10 年内逻辑地思考，就像做战略规划一样。
But I have an increasing sense that when you make decisions with your heart, and basically this is by listening to your energetic state
但我越来越感觉到，当你用心做出决定时，基本上这是通过倾听你的能量状态
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
you feel you see something, you see someone, you're like, "Ooh, like I like this," or like, "This is a little scary," right?
你感觉你看到了一些东西，你看到了某人，你就像，“哦，就像我喜欢这个，”或者就像，“这有点可怕，”对吗？
I started to ask my wife and she's really good at this, "How do you feel?" I think I used to ask my partner, "What are you thinking?"
我开始问我的妻子，她真的很擅长，“你感觉怎么样？”我想我曾经问过我的伴侣：“你在想什么？”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And if you ask someone, "What are you thinking?" Like right away, whoop, you go into this like cognitive level, which is really devoid of like the beautiful movement of energy.
如果你问某人：“你在想什么？”就像马上，哎呀，你进入了这个认知水平，这真的缺乏能量的美丽运动。
If you ask someone, "How are you feeling?" And then if that person, if you helped, you create the space for that person to really answer from that place, then you actually get to tune in to their energetic state.
如果你问某人：“你感觉怎么样？”然后，如果那个人，如果你提供了帮助，你为那个人创造了从那个地方真正回答问题的空间，那么你实际上就可以适应他们的能量状态。
And then you can be, I think, much better partner, if you see a relationship as an energetic exchange, right?
我认为，如果您将一段关系视为一种充满活力的交流，那么您可以成为更好的合作伙伴，对吗？
And then I can be in a better state if I know that, ooh, she's not feeling great and then I think we've-- I think the more you cultivate this kind of energetic awareness, I agree.
如果我知道，哦，她感觉不太好，然后我想我们——我认为你越能培养这种充满活力的意识，我同意，我就能处于更好的状态。
Awareness, personal awareness, and I would say energetic awareness, feeling into your mitochondria, maybe that's what it boils down to, I think is our greatest superpower a- as human beings and that's not a new concept.
意识，个人意识，我会说充满活力的意识，对线粒体的感觉，也许这就是它的归结，我认为这是我们作为人类最伟大的超级大国，这不是一个新概念。
It's I think the foundation for a lot of spiritual traditions, like cultivating awareness of self and then you realize at some point there's no self.
我认为这是许多精神传统的基础，比如培养自我意识，然后你在某个时刻意识到没有自我。
I'm just like movement of energy, and then you movement of energy, and then we're all kind of arising, emerging from an underlying current of consciousness and there are ideas about this.
我就像能量的运动，然后你的能量运动，然后我们都从潜在的意识流中浮现出来，并且有关于此的想法。
I'm not sure how it all fully gels together, but awareness also as a scientist.
我不确定这一切是如何完全结合在一起的，但作为一名科学家也有意识。
If you move through science without self-awareness, then your biases end up ruling the kind of projects you take on, end up ruling the kind of grants you apply to, and end up ruling the kind of science you produce and you generate.
如果你在没有自我意识的情况下从事科学研究，那么你的偏见最终会决定你所承担的项目类型，最终决定你申请的资助类型，最终决定你产生和产生的科学类型。
And so without self-awareness, I think we're not always doing, fulfilling our potential and fulfilling our collective potential, right, as humanity.
因此，如果没有自我意识，我认为我们作为人类就无法始终发挥我们的潜力和集体潜力。
Like if we can be the best person that we can be, then we can help other beings being their best self.
就像如果我们能够成为最好的人，那么我们就可以帮助其他人成为最好的自己。
We can be present.
我们可以在场。
And when you're present to someone, it's basically saying, "I see you, energetic process, and I'm opening to you.
当你出现在某人面前时，基本上是在说：“我看到你了，充满活力的过程，我正在向你敞开心扉。
How are you feeling?" That's why I think those kind of conversations and connecting deeply with another human being is so rewarding.
你感觉怎么样？”这就是为什么我认为这种对话以及与另一个人的深入联系是如此有益。
And that's true, I think, across the board.
我认为，从整体上看，这都是事实。
We're social creatures, and what this means is we love connecting with other people.
我们是社交动物，这意味着我们喜欢与其他人联系。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And I suspect that's because it helps us flow, right?
我怀疑那是因为它可以帮助我们流畅，对吗？
It helps us in our energy flow.
它帮助我们的能量流动。
And then we love projects that are stimulating, inspiring, and what those words mean.
然后，我们喜欢那些刺激、鼓舞人心的项目，以及这些词的含义。
Stimulating, inspiring, they're all like energetic terms.
刺激、启发，它们都像是充满活力的术语。
So the things that helps us flow, being like cognitive or spiritual or intellectual, social, all of those I think probably boil down to, is this thing helping energy flow through my mitochondria more easily, or is it bringing me resistance?
所以，帮助我们流动的东西，比如认知、精神、智力、社交，所有这些我认为可能归结为，这个东西是帮助能量更容易地流经我的线粒体，还是给我带来阻力？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Or is this thing bringing me resistance that I feel I have the capacity, the inner potential to push through, and then when I let go, then I become stronger, right?
还是这个东西给我带来了阻力，我觉得我有能力、有内在的潜力去突破，然后当我放手时，我就会变得更强，对吗？
And I grow as a person and I learn.
我作为一个人成长并学习。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I love it.
我喜欢它。
It's a mitochondrial, or energy flow centric view of everything, and I think it is the basis of life.
这是对一切事物的线粒体或以能量流为中心的看法，我认为这是生命的基础。
I know you're working on a book now.
我知道你现在正在写一本书。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It sounds like there's also another book to follow that one, "The Mitochondrial Marriage" at some point.
听起来好像还有另一本书紧随其后，《线粒体婚姻》。
I'm only half kidding.
我只是半开玩笑。
What you described is really beautiful, and it captures so much of what people are seeking, and I think what people understand intuitively about the things that make them feel good versus the things that make them feel bad.
你所描述的真的很美，它抓住了人们所寻求的很多东西，我认为人们直观地理解让他们感觉良好的事情和让他们感觉糟糕的事情。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the we have to pin above that resistance is critical to growth.
我们必须克服这种阻力，这对增长至关重要。
So it's not just about things that don't take effort versus things that take effort.
因此，这不仅仅是不需努力的事情与需要努力的事情的问题。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
It's not about easy.
这并不容易。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not as simple as that.
事情没那么简单。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
It's not infinitely complicated, but it's not as simple as that.
它不是无限复杂，但也不是那么简单。
Speaking of solutions, before I came in here to talk with you, I solicited the internet for some questions.
说到解决办法，在我来这里和大家交流之前，我在网上征求了一些问题。
We sometimes do a, not rapid-fire, but brief answer Q&A.
我们有时会进行简短的问答，而不是快速回答。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
So, if I may, I'm going to go fetch my phone, and gather a couple of questions to ask for some short answers.
所以，如果可以的话，我会去拿我的手机，收集几个问题来寻求一些简短的答案。
First question is, why is it that over-consuming calories causes disruption to the mitochondrial pathways?
第一个问题是，为什么过度消耗卡路里会导致线粒体途径中断？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yep.
是的。
I think it's because it increases energy resistance.
我认为这是因为它增加了能量抵抗力。
It's like a simple electrical circuit, maybe a computer, and then you're cranking up the voltage, right?
它就像一个简单的电路，也许是一台计算机，然后你就可以提高电压，对吗？
So you're pushing.
所以你在推动。
When you eat too much, you're putting too much food, too much energy into the system, and then the system gets overwhelmed.
当你吃得太多时，你就会向系统投入太多的食物和能量，然后系统就会不堪重负。
And then that increases blood glucose or blood lipids.
然后血糖或血脂就会升高。
And so the effect this has, we understand it, it pushes electrons onto your poor mitochondria.
我们知道，它所产生的效果是，它将电子推到你可怜的线粒体上。
Mitochondria evolve to be super sensitive, and then when there's a bit not enough energy, they change their behavior.
线粒体进化得超级敏感，然后当能量不足时，它们就会改变行为。
If there's too much energy, they change their behavior.
如果能量过多，他们就会改变自己的行为。
If there's chronically too much energy pushing on them, we have a little equation that helps us think energetically about this called the Energy Resistance Principle, ERP.
如果长期有太多的能量在推动它们，我们有一个小方程可以帮助我们积极地思考这个问题，称为能量阻力原理（ERP）。
And this says, if you raise the concentration of glucose, you raise the energy potential, like the voltage equivalent, and then that increases energy resistance.
这就是说，如果你提高葡萄糖的浓度，你就会提高能量势，就像电压当量一样，然后就会增加能量阻力。
If you're not flowing that energy, if you're not moving, being active, stimulated by something, you just put too much food in the system, it increases the resistance to energy flow, and then you start to have more dissipative losses-
如果你没有流动能量，如果你没有移动，没有活跃，没有受到某种刺激，你只是在系统中放入了太多的食物，它增加了能量流动的阻力，然后你开始有更多的耗散损失——
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm
毫米
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
...
...
like too much reactive oxygen species and too much molecular damage can happen.
就像可能发生过多的活性氧和过多的分子损伤。
That's probably why overeating, and why diabetes, and why metabolic diseases increases the rate of aging and increases the rate of all sorts of different diseases.
这可能就是为什么暴饮暴食、糖尿病以及代谢性疾病会增加衰老速度并增加各种不同疾病发病率的原因。
I think it all converges on energy resistance.
我认为这一切都集中在能量阻力上。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Someone asked, "Has there been any progress made on tissue or organ-specific mitochondrial optimization?" And I'll add to that, "and/or measurement."
有人问：组织或器官特异性线粒体优化有进展吗？我会添加“和/或测量”。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
So the measurement piece, we're working on this.
因此，我们正在研究测量部分。
Anna Manzo in our group, who's moving to Germany now, is developing a mitotyping platform.
我们小组的 Anna Manzo 现在要搬到德国，正在开发一个线粒体分型平台。
And if you want to explore, if you're a scientist or not, and you want to explore the molecular differences between mitochondria and different organs of the body, you can go to mitotypeexplorer.org, and then explore the different mitochondria and different organs.
如果你想探索，不管你是不是科学家，你想探索线粒体和身体不同器官之间的分子差异，你可以去mitotypeexplorer.org，然后探索不同的线粒体和不同的器官。
Tissue, organ-specific mitochondrial optimization, I think, mostly is going to be driven by the organ or tissue-specific use and flow of energy in that tissue.
我认为，组织、器官特异性线粒体优化主要是由器官或组织特异性使用和该组织中的能量流动驱动的。
Like we were talking about earlier, if you train on something, you train on playing the violin, parts of your brain are going to be more activated.
就像我们之前讨论的那样，如果你训练某些东西，比如拉小提琴，你大脑的某些部分会更加活跃。
Specific circuits are going to be activated together.
特定的电路将一起被激活。
They're going to wire together and then make more mitochondria, most likely, and probably become more efficient as well.
它们将连接在一起，然后产生更多的线粒体，很可能，并且也可能变得更有效率。
So there's rewiring at that level.
所以在这个层面上需要重新布线。
So I think mitochondria are there to serve the flow of energy.
所以我认为线粒体的作用是服务于能量的流动。
So if you flow more energy in your legs, you're going to make more mitochondria to increase the number of flow channels.
因此，如果你在腿部流动更多的能量，你就会产生更多的线粒体来增加流动通道的数量。
Mitochondria has little channels to flow energy towards oxygen.
线粒体几乎没有将能量流向氧气的通道。
So yeah, I don't know that we have ways yet, maybe with light therapy, photobiomodulation, or maybe electromagnetic field at some point.
所以，是的，我不知道我们还有办法，也许是光疗、光生物调节，或者也许是电磁场。
We need to be developing as healing science unfolds, and we understand ourselves energetically.
我们需要随着治疗科学的发展而发展，并且我们需要积极地了解自己。
I think we need energy-based or energy-informed approaches to help organisms heal, and probably those are going to target mitochondria.
我认为我们需要基于能量或能量信息的方法来帮助生物体愈合，而这些方法可能会针对线粒体。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yeah.
是的。
Using light or other tools to direct healing of specific internal organs.
使用光或其他工具来指导特定内脏器官的愈合。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
That's going to require something, a device of some sort, as opposed to using one area of the body or one component of the brain-
这将需要某种东西，某种设备，而不是使用身体的一个区域或大脑的一个组成部分——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah
是啊
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
is what I'm hearing.
这就是我所听到的。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Most likely.
最有可能的。
Although there's some crazy things that monks can do, apparently, like increasing their blood flow in one hand, but not the other.
尽管显然，僧侣可以做一些疯狂的事情，比如增加一只手的血流量，但不能增加另一只手的血流量。
There's even data showing that advanced meditators can increase blood flow in one part of the brain.
甚至有数据显示，高级冥想者可以增加大脑某一部位的血流量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm.
嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And so there might be unsuspected ways of tapping into using the mind, basically, to direct energy in different ways.
因此，可能存在一些意想不到的方式来利用头脑，基本上以不同的方式引导能量。
I've started to see the mind as a master regulator, controller of energy.
我开始将心灵视为能量的主要调节器和控制器。
The mind can literally depolarize your muscles, right, and then cause you to run, right?
头脑确实可以使你的肌肉去极化，对吧，然后让你跑步，对吗？
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
It starts up here with the inspiration or the motivation to contract your muscles, and or to run or to do any behavior.
它从收缩肌肉、跑步或做任何行为的灵感或动机开始。
This is the mind controlling the energy flow in your muscles and then making more mitochondria as a result.
这是控制肌肉能量流的大脑，从而产生更多的线粒体。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What are the best or most sensitive tests for mitochondrial health, if any exist?
线粒体健康最好或最敏感的测试是什么（如果有）？
And I will say, a number of questions, and there were many, many questions, centered around this idea-
我会说，有很多问题，而且有很多很多问题，都围绕着这个想法——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of how can I measure mitochondrial health as a patient or with my physician?
作为患者或与我的医生一起如何测量线粒体健康？
Are there any companies that make good mitochondrial health tests?
有没有公司可以进行良好的线粒体健康测试？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
There are diagnostic tests that clinics offer somewhere, and those are good to diagnose mitochondrial diseases.
诊所在某处提供诊断测试，这些测试有助于诊断线粒体疾病。
There's a few companies that have popped up because this is the future.
有一些公司突然出现，因为这就是未来。
Thinking about ourselves energetically, realizing we are energy, if that's true, which I think it is, then what do you do about this?
积极地思考我们自己，意识到我们就是能量，如果这是真的，我认为是这样，那么你对此做什么？
And I suspect we're working on developing an institute that will really bring together the science of energy, mitochondrial biology, and psychobiology with the human experience.
我怀疑我们正在努力建立一个研究所，真正将能源科学、线粒体生物学和心理生物学与人类经验结合起来。
That really is what moves us into action and ...
这确实是促使我们采取行动的原因……
determines whether our life is worth living.
决定了我们的人生是否值得过。
Those things haven't been brought together.
这些东西还没有整合到一起。
And we haven't also explored scientifically the healing process.
我们还没有科学地探索治愈过程。
So we're developing an institute that will work, do the research to develop those technologies, and then will do the work as well to bring those into technologies that can reach people and people can have in their homes, or maybe as a wearable, or right, as a kit that you get at home to really help you tune into your energy and know what works for you, which diet, which supplement or which there might be that this person in your life, when you're with them, energetically, it really does well for you.
因此，我们正在开发一个研究所，该研究所将开展工作，进行研究来开发这些技术，然后将这些技术带入人们可以使用的技术中，人们可以在家里拥有这些技术，或者作为一个可穿戴设备，或者作为一个你在家中可以拥有的工具包，真正帮助你调整你的能量，并知道什么对你有效，哪种饮食，哪种补充剂或你生活中的这个人，当你和他们在一起时，精力充沛，它真的对你有好处。
And maybe that means it's a good person for you.
也许这意味着他对你来说是个好人。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Yep.
是的。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
And there might be other people that really suck your energy.
可能还有其他人真正消耗了你的精力。
So we're working on initiatives and new methods to tune into mitochondrial health.
因此，我们正在研究调整线粒体健康的举措和新方法。
I don't know now of things that I would use to tap into the health of our mitochondria.
我现在不知道可以用什么东西来研究线粒体的健康状况。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
I can attest to both the pro-mitochondrial health and anti-mitochondrial health- ...
我可以证明促线粒体健康和抗线粒体健康——......
of certain relationships.
的某些关系。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
What are some small daily tweaks that can help increase, and people have said energy, but let's just use that as a proxy for energy flow.
有哪些日常小调整可以帮助增加能量，人们说的是能量，但我们就用它作为能量流的代理。
If you could give just one, two, or three recommendations.
如果您只能给出一个、两个或三个建议。
There are a lot of busy people in this question list.
这个问题列表里有很多忙碌的人。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
They're saying, "I've got kids, I've got a busy job." One, two, or three things that are straightforward outside the typical exercise, get your sleep, et cetera.
他们说：“我有孩子，我的工作很忙。”除了典型的锻炼之外，还有一、两、三件简单的事情，比如睡觉等等。
What are some tweaks, dare I say, hacks?
我敢说，有哪些调整，黑客？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
I think trying not to eat in the morning, like skipping breakfast seems like it does a lot of well for a lot of people.
我认为早上尽量不吃东西，比如不吃早餐，似乎对很多人都有好处。
And I've heard for a long time breakfast is the most important meal of the day.
我很久以来就听说早餐是一天中最重要的一餐。
That my dad used to say that.
我父亲曾经说过这样的话。
He still believes that, and I think it's hurting his health in his, like now in his 60s.
他仍然相信这一点，我认为这正在损害他的健康，就像他现在 60 多岁一样。
So I think trying to be hungry once in a while is probably a good thing.
所以我认为偶尔尝试一下饥饿可能是一件好事。
And then when you feel that hunger, and then you're reflexively reaching for food, I think you're probably doing something good for your mitochondria.
然后，当你感到饥饿，然后你条件反射地伸手去拿食物时，我想你可能正在为你的线粒体做一些有益的事情。
Your mitochondria when you're hungry or when a cell, what we know the science is if a cell is hungry in the dish, the mitochondria start to fuse, and there's more kind of the social connection between your mitochondria.
当你饥饿或细胞时，你的线粒体，我们所知道的科学是，如果培养皿中的细胞饥饿，线粒体开始融合，并且线粒体之间存在更多种类的社会联系。
So maybe that happens inside the body, and then you get rid of the bad mitochondria, you make more new ones that work better, more and more efficient.
所以也许这种情况发生在身体内部，然后你摆脱了坏的线粒体，你制造了更多工作得更好、更高效的新线粒体。
So being hungry once in a while is probably a good thing.
因此，偶尔感到饥饿可能是一件好事。
And then being out of breath.
然后就气喘吁吁了。
You mentioned one of your friend, I think, who says, "I just need to be out of breath for an hour."
我想，你提到了你的一位朋友，他说：“我只是需要上气不接下气一个小时。”
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Finding ways to be out of breath.
想方设法让自己喘不过气来。
That can be a run, can be being at a gym.
可以是跑步，也可以是去健身房。
Whatever makes you breathe harder.
任何让你呼吸困难的事情。
You breathe harder because your mitochondria are calling for oxygen.
你呼吸更加困难，因为你的线粒体需要氧气。
It's that simple.
就是这么简单。
So if you feel like you need to breathe harder, it means your mitochondria are flowing more energy, and it's probably good for you.
因此，如果您感觉需要更加用力地呼吸，则意味着您的线粒体正在流动更多能量，这可能对您有好处。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Great.
太棒了。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
I need to say something about meditation.
我需要说一些关于冥想的事情。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
I think somehow meditation does something to our energy that is valuable.
我认为冥想以某种方式对我们的能量产生了一些有价值的东西。
And just yesterday, there was a piece published in Nature Reviews Cardiology about transcendental meditation.
就在昨天，《自然评论心脏病学》发表了一篇关于先验冥想的文章。
I think that shows that the world is changing.
我认为这表明世界正在发生变化。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
A clinical medical journal, like Nature Reviews Cardiology, saying maybe there's something about calming down the body, right?
临床医学杂志，例如《自然评论心脏病学》，说也许有一些可以让身体平静下来的方法，对吗？
And not only is this calming down the mind, sure, maybe it improves wellbeing, this could actually be a treatment to help the heart recover.
这不仅可以让头脑平静下来，当然，也许它可以改善健康，这实际上可能是一种帮助心脏恢复的治疗方法。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Right?
对吗？
And to help treat a very serious, life-threatening disease, cardiovascular disease.
并帮助治疗一种非常严重、危及生命的疾病——心血管疾病。
I suspect there's something about meditation.
我怀疑这与冥想有关。
I have a 10-minute every morning.
我每天早上都有10分钟的时间。
I sit down and says, I'm religious about this.
我坐下来说，我对此很虔诚。
I wake up, first thing I do is sit down for 10 minutes, with Sam Harris's Waking Up app, and it just helps me connect, ground, connect with my energy.
当我醒来时，我做的第一件事就是坐下来 10 分钟，使用 Sam Harris 的唤醒应用程序，它只是帮助我连接、接地、连接我的能量。
And then I think for the rest of the day, I'm a little more in tune, and I probably can make better decisions, and I'm more grounded mentally, but probably also physically.
然后我想，在这一天剩下的时间里，我会更加适应，我可能可以做出更好的决定，而且我在精神上更加踏实，但在身体上也可能如此。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Awesome.
太棒了。
There's a lot of discussion about peptides.
关于肽有很多讨论。
MOTs, MotC, Huminin, SS-31, also called Ellama PreTide?
MOT、MotC、Huminin、SS-31，也称为 Ellama PreTide？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Ellama PreTide.
埃拉玛潮汐前。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Didn't know that.
不知道。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yep.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
GHK-Cu, copper, and various BPC-157, TB-500 analogs.
GHK-Cu、铜和各种 BPC-157、TB-500 类似物。
I told you this stuff's getting popular.
我告诉过你这个东西越来越流行了。
People are curious.
人们很好奇。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Let me ask you this.
让我问你这个。
I'll jump in on their question, I guess we talked about some of this earlier.
我会回答他们的问题，我想我们之前已经讨论过其中的一些内容。
Would you inject any of these things?
你会注射这些东西吗？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
I wouldn't.
我不会。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Would you let your sibling, mom, or dad inject these things?
你会让你的兄弟姐妹、妈妈或爸爸注射这些东西吗？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
No.
不。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
There were many questions centered around the fact that fertility doctors, OBGYNs, are recommending various things to improve mitochondrial health for sake of fertility and egg quality.
许多问题都集中在这样一个事实上：为了生育能力和卵子质量，生育医生、妇产科医生正在推荐各种方法来改善线粒体健康。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This makes sense because the mitochondrial genes are involved in the spindle and the formation of the embryo, et cetera.
这是有道理的，因为线粒体基因参与纺锤体和胚胎的形成等。
And the questions were specifically about the recommendations of ubiquinol and CoQ10, urolithin A.
这些问题具体是关于泛醇和辅酶 Q10、尿石素 A 的建议。
These are very prominent in the health space, especially in the fertility health space right now.
这些在健康领域非常突出，尤其是在目前的生育健康领域。
Is there any real evidence that these compounds can improve mitochondrial health and therefore egg quality?
是否有任何真实证据表明这些化合物可以改善线粒体健康，从而改善卵子质量？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
There's some good data on urolithin A that improves quality in cultured cells and then in animals.
有一些关于尿石素 A 的良好数据，它可以提高培养细胞和动物的质量。
So it's possible, and I think I saw recently some very compelling data on sperm mitochondrial DNA content like per sperm, linked to infertility.
所以这是有可能的，我想我最近看到了一些关于精子线粒体 DNA 含量（例如每个精子）的非常令人信服的数据，这些数据与不孕不育有关。
So I suspect that this massive crash, which is really worrying in fertility.
所以我怀疑这次大规模的崩溃，这对生育率来说确实令人担忧。
We're well below replacement right now.
我们现在远远低于替代品。
We're having very few babies as a society.
作为一个社会，我们的婴儿很少。
It could be that part of the issue behind this is mitochondria aren't ...
这背后的部分问题可能是线粒体不......
as optimal as they should be, or energy is not flowing as freely as it should be.
达到应有的最佳状态，或者能量没有像应有的那样自由流动。
So I don't know about whether those treatments could solve the issue.
所以我不知道这些治疗是否可以解决这个问题。
My sense is the issue behind infertility doesn't arise from some molecular deficiency in our mitochondria.
我的感觉是，不孕症背后的问题并不是由线粒体中的某些分子缺陷引起的。
It arises from some higher-level process that ends up messing up our energy.
它源于一些更高层次的过程，最终扰乱了我们的能量。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Last question.
最后一个问题。
Feel free to pass on this one.
请随意传递这个。
There were a number of people who asked whether there is any evidence, animal studies, in vitro, or even in humans, that electromagnetic fields can disrupt mitochondrial flow.
有很多人询问是否有任何证据、动物研究、体外研究甚至人体研究表明电磁场可以扰乱线粒体流动。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
This is, I realize, somewhat of a barbed wire topic because it immediately gets us to the place where people think, "Oh, they're worried about 5G and Bluetooth and things like that."
我意识到，这有点像铁丝网话题，因为它立即让我们想到人们的想法，“哦，他们担心 5G 和蓝牙之类的东西。”
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
But I don't know.
但我不知道。
I did an episode on fertility where I reviewed a meta-analysis of data showing that indeed, sperm motility can be impacted.
我做了一个关于生育力的节目，其中我回顾了数据的荟萃分析，表明精子活力确实会受到影响。
But what are the data on EMFs or other electrical-
但是有关 EMF 或其他电气的数据是什么？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
signals or other energy fields that could potentially impact brain, sperm, eggs?
信号或其他可能影响大脑、精子、卵子的能量场？
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
If there is something in most cells that could respond to electromagnetic fields, I think it would be mitochondria, if you reason about this from first principles.
如果大多数细胞中有某种东西可以对电磁场做出反应，如果你从第一原理来推理的话，我认为那就是线粒体。
In the mitochondria, there's a bunch of iron, iron sulfur clusters, which some of them at least are paramagnetic, meaning they interact with magnetic fields.
在线粒体中，有一堆铁、铁硫簇，其中一些至少是顺磁性的，这意味着它们与磁场相互作用。
So I think in terms of biological plausibility, I think there's basis to believe that mitochondria could be sensitive and respond and be functionally impacted by some magnetic fields.
因此，我认为就生物学合理性而言，我认为有基础相信线粒体可能是敏感的、做出反应的，并且会受到某些磁场的功能影响。
So that's for biological plausibility.
这是为了生物学的合理性。
Data, I know some data where people have measured mitochondrial respiration, which is flowing electrons to oxygen, and you see oxygen disappearing.
数据，我知道一些数据，人们测量了线粒体呼吸，即电子流向氧气，你会看到氧气消失。
So you can measure this very well in the lab, and then you can measure this in the absence of any magnetic field, and then with a bit of a field, a stronger field, a stronger field, a stronger field.
所以你可以在实验室里很好地测量它，然后你可以在没有任何磁场的情况下测量它，然后用一点磁场，更强的磁场，更强的磁场，更强的磁场。
And it seems like there's an effect on this one function of mitochondria, which is respiration.
线粒体的呼吸功能似乎受到了影响。
So there seems to be data that says this could happen.
所以似乎有数据表明这种情况可能会发生。
What we're talking about in terms of magnetic field there is not 5G, and it's not some Wi-Fi, widely used magnetic fields or electromagnetic radiation.
我们所说的磁场不是5G，也不是一些Wi-Fi、广泛使用的磁场或电磁辐射。
They're pretty specific, and the Earth's magnetic field, which is very low level, seems to perhaps have an effect also on mitochondria.
它们非常具体，并且水平非常低的地球磁场似乎也对线粒体有影响。
And there are biophysicists, like my wife, Nirosha Murugan, who has done experiments with patterned magnetic fields, which is different than just you apply a static magnetic field, like with a magnet, or a field that doesn't change over time.
还有生物物理学家，比如我的妻子 Nirosha Murugan，她做过图案化磁场实验，这与仅应用静态磁场（如磁铁）或不随时间变化的磁场不同。
It's like a sine wave.
就像正弦波一样。
There's no information there.
那里没有任何信息。
But you can pattern a magnetic field to have information, to have content, like Morse code, back to the Morse code analogy.
但是你可以对磁场进行图案化来获取信息、内容，就像摩尔斯电码一样，回到摩尔斯电码的类比。
So you can deliver information through that, and it seems we have preliminary data that shows the mitochondria might be changing in response to this.
所以你可以通过它传递信息，而且我们似乎有初步数据表明线粒体可能会对此做出反应。
Basically, you're beaming energy at a certain pattern instead of with molecules like glucose and pyruvate and lipids and stuff, or light.
基本上，你是以某种模式发射能量，而不是用葡萄糖、丙酮酸、脂质等分子或光。
Now you're beaming energy in another modality, as electromagnetic waves.
现在你以另一种方式发射能量，即电磁波。
And there are proteins, clearly, and iron sulfur clusters that can be sensitive to that.
显然，有些蛋白质和铁硫簇可能对此敏感。
So I think there's some biological plausibility.
所以我认为这有一定的生物学合理性。
There's evidence that this might happen and affect mitochondrial respiration.
有证据表明这种情况可能会发生并影响线粒体呼吸。
And there's, I think, another layer of sophistication that tells us this potentially could be harnessed eventually to help kind of rewrite some energetic states in the body.
我认为，还有另一层复杂性告诉我们，这最终可能被用来帮助重写体内的一些能量状态。
Maybe we can use those at some point to promote the healing process.
也许我们可以在某个时候使用它们来促进愈合过程。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Love it.
喜欢它。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
So we'll see.
所以我们拭目以待。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
We will see.
我们将会看到。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Yeah.
是的。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Dr. Martin Piccard, thank you so much.
马丁·皮卡德博士，非常感谢您。
You gave us a master class in mitochondria, mitochondrial function.
您为我们上了一堂关于线粒体、线粒体功能的大师课。
You clarified a lot of what is clearly confusion for people out there, including many biologists, mind you, about how mitochondria work and the spectacular things that they do.
请注意，您澄清了许多人们（包括许多生物学家）明显困惑的问题，即线粒体如何工作以及它们所做的惊人事情。
And the way you frame this whole notion of energy flow, and I guess we should credit your wife here, for energy is the potential for change.
你构建整个能量流概念的方式，我想我们应该相信你的妻子，因为能量就是改变的潜力。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Right.
对。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And the behaviors, the mindsets, the small moments where you can give yourself relief, like an exhale, and just take the tension off the body, those are surely creating energetic savings that you can allocate to other things.
行为、心态、可以让自己放松的小时刻，比如呼气，消除身体的紧张，这些肯定会创造能量储蓄，你可以将其分配给其他事情。
And to just think about life as a game of sorts-
把生活想象成一场游戏——
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm
嗯嗯
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
...
...
of controlling your energy, and it gets us to sleep, and all the things that we love talking about on this podcast, and the way you framed it is truly novel and is just spectacular.
控制你的能量，它让我们入睡，我们喜欢在这个播客上谈论的所有事情，以及你构建它的方式真的很新颖，而且非常壮观。
Also, you're reversing graying of hair.
此外，你还可以逆转头发变白的情况。
You're giving people agency over that.
你在这方面给予人们代理权。
And I just want to reemphasize how incredible it is that you're approaching things at this very high level of subjective experience, this very real level that people live in all the time.
我只是想再次强调，你以如此高水平的主观体验来处理事物，这是多么令人难以置信，这是人们一直生活在的非常真实的水平。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
Mm-hmm.
嗯嗯。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
And yet you're able to bridge across all these levels of analysis down to the subcellular and biophysical mechanisms.
然而，您能够将所有这些级别的分析深入到亚细胞和生物物理机制。
It's really spectacular.
真是太壮观了。
You're truly an N of 1, as we say.
正如我们所说，您确实是 N of 1。
And I'm very excited for what you're putting together in terms of this scientific institute to solve healing.
我对你们在这个科学研究所中为解决治疗问题所做的努力感到非常兴奋。
Your book, we'll talk again later at some point about your book.
你的书，我们稍后会再讨论你的书。
And I should probably also sit down and have a conversation with your wife because she's got some spectacular results in this realm, too.
我或许也应该坐下来和你的妻子谈谈，因为她在这个领域也取得了一些惊人的成果。
Dr. Martin Picard:
马丁·皮卡德博士：
She does.
她做到了。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Just thank you, thank you, thank you for the education and the actionable items that you're providing.
只是谢谢你，谢谢你，谢谢你提供的教育和可操作的项目。
Thanks for coming out all this way.
谢谢你千辛万苦走出来。
I'm very grateful to you.
我非常感谢你。
Thank you.
谢谢。
Speaker 3:
演讲者3：
Thank you, Andrew.
谢谢你，安德鲁。
Andrew Huberman:
安德鲁·休伯曼：
Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Martin Picard.
感谢您参加今天与马丁·皮卡德博士的讨论。
To learn more about his work, please see the links in the show note captions.
要了解有关他的作品的更多信息，请参阅演出注释标题中的链接。
If you're learning from and/or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
如果您正在学习和/或喜欢此播客，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道。
That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.
这是支持我们的绝佳零成本方式。
In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple.
此外，请通过单击 Spotify 和 Apple 上的关注按钮来关注播客。
And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star review, and you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple.
在 Spotify 和 Apple 上，您可以给我们留下五星级的评论，现在您可以在 Spotify 和 Apple 上给我们留下评论。
Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode.
另请查看今天节目开头和整个节目中提到的赞助商。
That's the best way to support this podcast.
这是支持这个播客的最佳方式。
If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.
如果您对我有疑问，或者对播客或嘉宾有意见，或者您希望我为 Huberman Lab 播客考虑的主题，请将这些意见放入 YouTube 的评论部分。
I do read all the comments.
我确实阅读了所有评论。
For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
对于那些还没有听说过的人，我即将出版一本新书。
It's my very first book.
这是我的第一本书。
It's entitled "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.
它的标题是“协议：人体操作手册”。这本书是我花了五年多时间编写的，它基于 30 多年的研究和经验。
And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.
它涵盖了从睡眠到运动再到压力控制的所有协议，以及与注意力和动机相关的协议，当然，我为所包含的协议提供了科学依据。
The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com.
该书现已在protocolbook.com 上预售。
There you can find links to various vendors.
在那里您可以找到各个供应商的链接。
You can pick the one that you like best.
您可以选择您最喜欢的一个。
Again, the book is called "Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body." And if you're not already following me on social media, I am HubermanLab on all social media platforms.
同样，这本书的名字是“协议：人体操作手册”。如果您还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我是所有社交媒体平台上的 HubermanLab。
So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
这就是 Instagram、X、Threads、Facebook 和 LinkedIn。
And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast.
在所有这些平台上，我讨论科学和与科学相关的工具，其中一些与胡伯曼实验室播客的内容重叠，但其中大部分与胡伯曼实验室播客上的信息不同。
Again, it's HubermanLab on all social media platforms.
同样，所有社交媒体平台上都是 HubermanLab。
And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network Newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.
如果您还没有订阅我们的神经网络时事通讯，神经网络时事通讯是一份零成本的月度时事通讯，其中包括播客摘要以及我们所说的一到三页 PDF 形式的协议，涵盖从如何优化睡眠、如何优化多巴胺、故意冷暴露等所有内容。
We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.
我们有一个基本的健身方案，涵盖心血管训练和阻力训练。
All of that is available completely zero cost.
所有这些都是完全零成本可用的。
You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to Newsletter and enter your email.
您只需访问 hubermanlab.com，转到右上角的菜单选项卡，向下滚动到新闻通讯并输入您的电子邮件即可。
And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
我要强调的是，我们不会与任何人分享您的电子邮件。
Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Martin Picard.
再次感谢您参加今天与马丁·皮卡德的讨论。
And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
最后但并非最不重要的一点是，感谢您对科学的兴趣。
Speaker 4:
演讲者4：
This episode is brought to you by Caesar.
本集由凯撒为您带来。
If you're looking to serve your dog high-quality dog food, just eat Caesar.
如果您想为您的狗提供高品质的狗粮，那就吃凯撒吧。
Whether it's a protein-rich beef recipe or savory chicken and vegetable dinner, Caesar offers a variety of delicious meals made with freshly crafted, slow-cooked ingredients, all designed to support your dog's everyday nutrition without compromise.
无论是富含蛋白质的牛肉食谱还是美味的鸡肉和蔬菜晚餐，凯撒都提供各种采用新鲜制作、慢煮原料制成的美味佳肴，所有这些都旨在毫不妥协地支持您的爱犬的日常营养。
So if you're looking to serve a meal your dog actually looks forward to every single day, they should totally just eat Caesar.
因此，如果您想为您的狗每天提供一顿真正期待的饭菜，那么它们完全应该吃凯撒。
Learn more at caesar.com.
如需了解更多信息，请访问 caesar.com。